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What happens when workforce innovation stops focusing on individuals alone—and starts supporting entire families? In this episode of Manager Minute, Carol Pankow sits down with Lucas Halverson and Kathy Davis of ServiceSource to explore Families Achieving Self-Sufficiency Together (FASST)—a Disability Innovation Fund initiative that's connecting VR, TANF, employers, and community partners in a powerful new way. You'll hear how FASST: ·       Tackles generational poverty through a family-centered employment model ·       Supports disconnected youth and adults with disabilities across multiple states ·       Complements VR services without duplicating them ·       Uses AI-powered job matching and strong employer partnerships ·       Creates real solutions during Order of Selection and funding constraints This conversation is a must-listen for VR leaders, program managers, and partners looking for scalable, practical models that expand impact without expanding cost.   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Lucas: The big goal is to break the cycle of poverty. We want to create lasting self-sufficiency, reduce the need for benefits and things of that nature.   Kathy: The beauty of this project is that it was originally designed for six sites across multiple states.   Lucas: We don't intend as a program to supplant programs that already exist, but we do intend to supplement or fill the gaps that exist.   Kathy: We are one as part of this project, and you would not have to pay fee for service or contract us. We're already being paid through the grant.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow.   Carol: Welcome to the manager minute. In today's episode, we're diving into one of the exciting initiatives funded through the Rehab Services Administration's Disability Innovation Fund 21st Century Workforce Grants. And these grants were designed to spark new ideas and scalable strategies that help youth and adults with disabilities prepare for and succeed in today's rapidly changing world of work. From artificial intelligence and virtual reality to cross-system partnerships and new ways of engaging employers. These projects are testing innovative models that could reshape how we think about disability employment for the 21st century. And one of those projects, launched just this past year, is led by ServiceSource, and it's taking a unique approach to helping families move toward self-sufficiency and employment. And joining me today to talk about it are Lucas Halverson, project director, and Kathy Davis, one of the key leaders behind this groundbreaking effort. So how goes it, Lucas?   Lucas: Hey, good morning Carol. Everything's going very well. Thank you so much for inviting us to talk about our project today. We're extremely excited to be here to talk about our project Families Achieving Self-sufficiency Together. We also call it fasst with two S's. So thanks again for having us.   Carol: You bet. How about you, Kathy? How are you doing?   Kathy: I'm doing great, Carol, thanks so much for having us. We are definitely excited to speak with you about our grant, which is short for that Disability Innovation Fund.   Carol: Excellent. Yeah, I've had a lot of experience talking with other DIF grantees in like the C.D.E.F. We always give them the little alphabet soup label, but there have been different focuses each year that RSA had released the Disability Innovation Fund grant. So it's been really fun to catch up and see what things are happening. So let's dig in. So before we get into the details of your project, Lucas, could you tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to be involved in this work?   Lucas: Yeah, absolutely. So my entire professional career is related to helping others. That started as an employment development specialist right after my bachelor's degree, focusing on all things employment placement, support services, community based, competitive, integrated employment. I transitioned from that into helping individuals with more significant disabilities prepare for employment. I've done a little bit of group and individual substance abuse counseling, but largely the last 15 years or so, I've been in the world of vocational rehabilitation in a variety of roles, both on the public side and the private sector side, and was happy through those wonderful years to get my master's degree in rehab counseling and my certified rehabilitation counselor credential. So to present day, I've been with ServiceSorce for over ten years, and when the grant was awarded, I looked at it as an opportunity to still stay in the world that I love of helping people, but knew it would expand my skills and really looked at it as an opportunity to bring a pretty large proposal to life. And so here we are, fresh into the second year of our project and seeing all of that happen. So very exciting.   Carol: It's very cool. I love finding people's stories, like how you found your way into this world of work, because we all came in a long and winding road different ways, but make it in. And then once you're in, you're kind of hooked. It's hard to leave. So, Kathy, how about you? How did you come to be involved in this work?   Kathy: Well, same. I love people's stories about how they find their vocation. And I have also been serving individuals with disabilities for a very long time, well over 20 years. I started as a volunteer in high school with Easter Seals, and from there, I did volunteer work with therapeutic horseback riding. I eventually also went back to school and got my master's in rehab counseling and became a nonprofit community mental health counselor and a traumatic brain injury program manager. And because of my background in counseling and also a previous master's degree in economics, when the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act was being discussed,  and the emphasis changed to or included employers. My econ background and my master's rehab counseling background made me a little bit of a unicorn, and I was hired by a Blind services agency around 2012. And then I also did business relations for them. And then I was hired to start the first business relations program at one of the VR agencies. And really, my golden thread throughout all of my career has been starting new programs. No matter what role I've been in. I love new things, I love innovation, and so DIF has been a perfect fit for me. I'm also working on my doctorate degree, almost finished with that and doing a Pre-ETS dissertation. So I have a really strong interest in evaluation. And so evaluation actually brought me to this project. And I serve as an internal evaluator for it.   Carol: Wow, you are a unicorn. Let me say that is exciting. Very fun. Thanks for sharing that. So when you two first saw the grant announcement, what caught your attention and made you want to apply?   Lucas: Yeah. So this DIF grant cycle the F grant cycle was the first time nonprofit organizations were eligible to apply. So it was a unique opportunity for ServiceSource. And so our program development team recognized that our agency had the capacity to try to take this on, and also the expertise to successfully apply with a strong proposal, but then also administer and monitor the program successfully. So our organization, ServiceSource, is a leading service provider and employer for individuals with disabilities. So it made us well positioned to deliver impactful outcomes under this project. The DIF grant in general definitely aligns very closely with our mission and our vision and our values. And we have affiliated organizational model that we felt would provide a strategic advantage with this project. So it's allowing us to have a fairly large geographic reach. We have several teams across the country all working together on this project, and it also allows us to leverage partnerships and resources that have already been in existence across these teams and these affiliates to have the greatest impact that we can. And so really, the alignment and the capacity gave us confidence that we could do what this grant needed us to do. And so we're in that second year and really getting rocking and rolling now.   Carol: Yeah, I hadn't realized that ServiceSource had such a big footprint because I was familiar with the work ServiceSource did in Florida, and Tina down in Florida and working with the Florida General Agency. In fact, we did a podcast about that and that particular model, and I knew there were little fingers of that kind of had spread out, I believe, into a few different states, but I hadn't realized, like, really how expansive ServiceSource was. So that is an excellent point that it really positioned you well for this. Now your project family is achieving self-sufficiency together. As you said FASST with the two S's. So no, we don't have a typo. If they read the transcript later, we didn't have a spelling error. It is the FASST you really launched at the end of June. I know that first year is always a very big planning year and getting things ready. Can you give us a quick overview of what the initiative is about, and really what motivated your focus on families?   Lucas: Yeah, absolutely. Really the high level focus aims to help disconnected youth and disconnected adults with disabilities achieve competitive, integrated employment. In addition, you know, using early intervention workforce reintegration strategies to support long term success. That's where the whole self-sufficiency piece comes in, uniquely for our project. But overall, FASST is, as I mentioned, a multi-state initiative, and we want to empower disconnected adults and youth with disabilities. Our core focus is individuals that are eligible for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families or TANF. So that's part of our eligibility requirement. And the ultimate focus is to remove barriers to employment and to independence. And so we do that by connecting families to community partners such as vocational rehabilitation, training providers, employers. But we also have staff that assist the individuals we're serving, build those critical skills such as job readiness, financial capability. And we have a case manager component to the team. Each team has a case manager to help with that kind of wraparound, holistic approach, to try to knock down as many barriers as possible. The big goal is to break the cycle of poverty, looking at kind of that two generational approach. We want to create lasting self-sufficiency, reduce the need for benefits and things of that nature. So pretty big goals. But we have a solid team that I'm confident can hit those goals with us.   Kathy: So and related to goals, we really our project has three overall goals. And as Lucas mentioned, it is to connect disconnected adults to find and retain that competitive integrated employment. But I'll also add that we want to have at least one high quality indicator as part of that employment, and we're helping to support them to retain their employment for at least 90 days. But we're also tracking beyond 90 days. And that's one of the really exciting and fun parts of this project. Unlike vocational rehabilitation, where you'd see a closure at 90 days, we're able to support individuals for the remainder of the project if that's what it takes to help them maintain their employment. The second overarching goal that we have is for the youth, disconnected youth ages 14 to 24. Our goal is to help them gain work skills and then either enter employment or enter education and or complete education. And then finally, the third goal would be to build the system's capacity with all of our partners to sustain our model and be able to serve more TANF recipients.   Carol: I like your holistic approach that you guys have brought up. I know back in the day, as customers would come in the door, and I was working at State Services for the Blind in Minnesota. You're looking at employment, but it's hard to just talk employment right off the get go. If people don't have food or your housing is unstable or you have all the other issues, so you've got to kind of connect all the pieces together. Employment obviously is a very important piece of this, but it isn't the only piece. You got to have it all work together.   Lucas: You make a great point, because I realized I didn't touch on the motivation to focus on families as part of this, and it's largely what you just described. You know, we recognize that families are key support systems for the individuals that we're serving. Families strongly influence decisions about anything but including employment and training, career paths. And so our whole focus is trying to have an alignment to that. And again, with our case management, part of our staffing, looking at the barriers, making sure they're addressed to increase those chances of success, because just as you said, there's not transportation, there's not a job. If there's not a house over your head, there's not a job if you don't have food. So all caregiver responsibilities and so the family tie in is really looking at barriers that affect the family. So could be the parent could be a child. But we know how it impacts the household. It creates kind of that ripple effect. And so not addressing it holistically could be a key piece missing. And so kind of the core motivation I guess to capitalize on that is to increase skills, of course, relating to employment, but also to again try to reduce the reliance on benefits as part of that. So knocking down barriers, helping go to work, reducing that need. And one of the key points with our project is as things are evolving, it does align with some of the current different federal agency initiatives. So, for example, children and families is emphasizing employment as a pathway to self-sufficiency. So that's very close to what we're looking at. And another example is Health and Human Services. They're looking at employment and family as the foundation of economic and social well-being. So our project really kind of just fits and plugs into that, because that is what our goal is with the larger focus. But I do think the holistic piece is extremely valuable for this project and will continue to be.   Carol: Yeah, you guys are definitely ahead of the curve because when I saw that that you guys had picked TANF, you know, at first I'm like, well that's interesting. Like how did you come to that? You know, to decide you were going to focus on those folks eligible for TANF and kind of make that the centerpiece?   Lucas: Yeah. So the program development folks that really dug into the proposal, part of the application process did a lot of research and found that largely there was a disconnect. There are a lot of folks that are eligible for TANF or receiving TANF that were appropriate for other agencies, such as vocational rehab, just as one example. But the tie in often wasn't there. It wasn't happening. And so, as Kathy mentioned, one of our goals is to hopefully have some better pipelines for that. So for folks and entities that are naturally working with individuals with TANF to understanding no important programs such as vocational rehab exist and what that looks like and what the scope is and what they can help with. So it just kind of was a noticed need and kind of became one of the key parts of, of this proposal when it was getting all put together.   Carol: I think that's brilliant because you always look at kind of VR can be the best kept secret. People say that all the time, and even though it seems like it would be apparent, like, why wouldn't you, you know, get connected with VR and you're in this program. People don't know that. And it's not necessary that the staff may be working in TANF, even know about VR or what's going on. We don't always do the best job at connecting with all the different partners and other folk out there.   Lucas: Another part of that decision to again, ServiceSource operating many programs across the country. There are a couple TANF specific programs that ServiceSource operated for many years, one being in Virginia that partners with the Virginia Department of Social Services, and then another unrelated program in Denver in Colorado. So there's already some knowledge base of that in addition to the research they all did. So it helped us kind of align with one of our corporate strategic goals of expansion and wanting to increase our support to individuals that are eligible for TANF. And so it kind of checked a, checked a lot of mini boxes, both there being a need and interest from our company with our goal of expanding and serving, you know, additional individuals. So it kind of presented just almost a natural opportunity, I guess, as it was all coming together. And I think it gives, you know, a pretty solid opportunity to try to interrupt the generational poverty that exists within families.   Carol: Well, that's where the magic happens. There's nothing better than having a project that fits with your own corporate mission. You know, the stars are aligned, things all sync up. It's not like you're having to kind of fit round, peg in a square hole or whatever, the square peg in a round hole, because it's all aligned really well. Now, I understand you recently received approval to expand your focus to include disconnected youth such as those in foster care, the justice system. How does that change the picture of your work going forward?   Lucas: Yeah, so kind of a really cool example. So with the DIF grants, one of the key focuses on being innovative and being flexible in changing with what you're finding during your project. And so very early on, not long after we launched the project and began some large increased efforts with outreach almost immediately, there were a handful of situations that involve youth that met the larger definition of disconnected, but didn't quite meet our project eligibility of being in a household that had a parent or guardian eligible for TANF benefits. And so we originally had intended to focus on those youth later in the project. But we talked about it and we did not want to exclude individuals. We knew we had the expertise and interest to serve, and we certainly did not want to risk coming back in the months or years ahead trying to find them. You know, it's kind of like the hot potato. If you have youth that are interested, now is the time. And so we worked with our project officer from RSA and they were very supportive of us expanding our focus to the broader definition of disconnected youth a little bit sooner than we originally planned, of course, but so that expansion includes youth now that are in foster care, the justice system that are low income or don't have stable housing. And so they don't have to have that TANF tie in for, for that kind of subgroup, but still relates very directly to our mission of serving the disconnected youth and adults within the project.   Carol: Yeah, I like that. You recognize that, you know, and take advantage of that as you're seeing that. And that's kind of the beauty of these projects, because they do ebb and flow based on how things are rolling and what you write in a proposal. As everything comes to fruition, you realize different things and you're like, oh, you know, maybe we get to pivot or do something a little differently or whatever that may be, or make this addition and it just makes the project better. I love the flexibility that RSA has with the projects to allow that kind of expansion and changes as you're going along. So I understand you've got six teams working across six states under this shared framework. How does that structure work, and what have you learned so far about coordinating across all these different regions?   Lucas: Yeah, I'm proud and very happy to report that it's been working incredibly well so far. It's kind of a new experience for our organization as well because it's bringing together multiple affiliated teams, but working collectively on the same project at the same time with shared goals. So from the start, when Kathy and I were putting this all together, one of the elements that really wasn't negotiable was building a sense of community within our team. Since we're all working on the same grant, have the same expectations. We knew if everybody was working in their own silo, it would be, you know, highly unnecessary and really counterproductive to what we're wanting to do. So we spent a lot of time in the earlier stages and continue to with emphasizing cross team collaboration. It's really kind of the key driver to our success and our continued success. And so some of the efforts to make this team that's spread across the country feel like we're all sitting in the same office space together, is having weekly meetings. So Kathy and I lead a weekly meeting with all the grant funded staff, their supervisors, the executive directors for the different affiliates, other subject matter experts from our organization, and then different contractors as necessary that are on the project. And we focus on anything and everything relating to the project, so it could be updates, progress, best practices, things that seem to be going well, maybe things that we need to work a little better on any process reviews we need to do. So we go through just anything that's relevant each week, keeps that engagement there, keeps everybody, you know, interacting. And beyond that, we also knew that with having some external contractors on the project that we really needed that to be bought in from the staff as well. And so we had kick off meetings with each contractor, both with our large group and then with each individual team, really just to build rapport, clarify roles, responsibilities, expectations, how it was going to work, what the goals were, and just start those relationships strong as well. You know, there's so much going on when you launch a project that we didn't want our external folks not to feel a partner like our internal folks. And so that's been going remarkably well. And then lastly, the last comment I'll make on this is that we also recognize that because we have really three position types that are working directly with the individuals we're serving, again, spread out across the country. We really wanted them to feel together and not, again, not separate. And so each position has its own community of practice. They meet monthly, they share best practices. They discuss challenges, Brainstorm ideas. For example, case manager in Florida found a gem of a resource that's national. There's no reason our case manager in Utah should have to spend time finding that as well. They talk about it. They you know, hey, I found this. This is great. It might help each other. And so those meetings we've had a lot of positive response on and Kathy and I hop on, if they have a topic they want us to discuss or, you know, problem solve with them. And so we've really felt that's helped bridge that large geographic distance across the teams. And we're hoping that, you know, turns into high quality and impactful services for the folks we're serving efficiently, serving our individuals and not having multiple people having to spend the same time on the same need.   Kathy: Yeah, I'll add something here, too, from an evaluation perspective. You might be familiar that when you start a new program and it develops into a fully developed, successful project and program, and then you start sharing it nationally. Inevitably, someone will, from another state or another agency outside of your region will say, well, that could never work for us because we're, you know, we have these resources or we're serving this population. The beauty of this project is that it was originally designed for six sites across multiple states. And so our implementation really is across varying populations and community resources. And so this project has such strong potential for successful implementation across multiple states and contexts. So we're very excited that we're really documenting everything that we're doing. We'll have a toolkit when we complete the project, and we're really looking forward to sharing what we're doing and how to do it with others.   Carol: And that's a really important piece to RSA. It's one of the things you write to in the project, like how is this going to be sustained past the project ending? Like how can you then, you know, transfer this information to other folks and they can implement it. So I can see where that was very appealing to them as they're looking at evaluating the different proposals that shoot. Here's a group looking at six states. So you mentioned, Lucas, Utah and Florida. What are the other four states that you're in?   Lucas: Yeah. So we're  in Delaware, North Carolina and Virginia. And we're right now in the process of bringing on a team in Colorado. We have the approval. We're just doing the logistics of what it takes to bring them on. That's one of the ServiceSource teams that has an experienced TANF program. And so we looked at that as another opportunity to be able to already leverage existing relationships and expertise to just tie right into what we were already planning to do in the Colorado team was just a little bit newer to ServiceSource, so they weren't part of the original proposal because they weren't here quite yet, but they now are. So we're extremely excited to have some additional folks joining the team and fitting right into what we're doing.   Carol: That's very cool. I know one of your partners. Our Ability, brings some cutting edge tech into the mix with AI powered job matching and training. How is that partnership helping you engage employers and job seekers in new ways?   Lucas: Yeah, so I think as we all know, the workforce development is just kind of an ever evolving landscape. So bringing Our Ability in, I'm extremely excited. John Robinson, the CEO from Our Ability, is part of our project. And at the core of our partnership is the innovative use of technology. They have a portal that's called Jobs Ability, that uses generative AI to connect job seekers to employment based on their interests, their skills, their expertise. So the system helps focus on the challenge of both unemployment but also underemployment among folks with disabilities. And their platform reaches 15,000 people with disabilities each month, which to me is pretty remarkable. That's a lot of folks consistently visiting and using their resources. And so the job matching will assist with better connections between the individuals were serving and getting into the work world, or trying to help upgrade or increase their employment in a system that's already proven, which, you know, helps with efficiency. They already know it works. And so by us leveraging their extensive employer network within the system, you know, we're really focused on fostering the employment opportunities that encourage and again, increase self-sufficiency.   Kathy: Just kind of expanding on what the Jobs Ability portal will mean for our customers. We'll be able to assist our job seekers with creating quality resumes that are keyed in on skills and experience, and there is an AI matching protocol that really matches their preferences and experiences and skills with job descriptions. It's a proprietary AI system, and so we're really excited about how participants are going to be able to be matched with jobs that actually match their skills. These are real jobs, competitive wages. As we said, we have high quality indicators for our outcomes, including wages. And if you think about it, this is a win for our participants as well as our employers, because they are going to be able to actually tap into qualified individuals with disabilities who meet the skills and experience that they are seeking.   Carol: I love AI. I know there's people I've done different podcasts around, different AI initiatives, and some people have different feelings about AI. I know there's kind of the you have the dark side of it, but this sounds super cool. I had not heard of this company. And about this proprietary software. I think that's very interesting and super smart of you to leverage something already out there, proven tested, can be used right away. Instead of you trying to like, go down the road of creating something and doing all of that, you don't need to waste, you know, time and energy in that when you've got something already done. Now, I know no large project like this starts without a few hurdles. What have been some of your biggest challenges so far, and how are you navigating maybe any kind of overlap with other services or agencies?   Kathy: As you said, VR is a well-kept secret. Many times that's what we hear. And so being experienced with that, when we started the project, we knew the outreach was going to be key. And so we did not wait to start our outreach. And Lucas and I developed a very thorough support system and toolkit for our staff to help them really be purposeful about their outreach. And as soon as people were hired, one of the first things they were told to do after they were up and running with knowledge about the project was to start outreach. And honestly, I think we've become an outreach machine and we're really keeping track of hundreds, hundreds of contacts across our six locations that we've made and also just really analyzing which of those resources are turning into pipelines of referrals. And so I think we're going to be learning a lot about that. One of the things that we also knew from the beginning is that we needed to tailor our outreach to the audience. So we have a library of outreach materials for students, for VR, for employers, for schools and parents. So there's many ways that we have. We also are created outreach in other languages. So we're definitely doing our best to reach as many people as we can about this project, and also equipping our staff to be able to speak about it, to really understand it and to be able to keep track of what we're doing to reach the populations that and stakeholders that we're going to serve.   Carol: Very cool.   Lucas: I was going to talk about the overlap with other agencies. It's been a very real discussion with our teams because, you know, how does FASST fit in with other programs that might do similar types of work. And so, you know, it's an ongoing discussion, teaching staff the significance of a comparable benefit, a very familiar term for our friends that have been in the VR world before. We don't intend as a program to supplant programs that already exist, but we do intend to supplement or fill the gaps that exist. Maybe we can move faster within a process to help somebody now that while they'll go through a process that takes a little bit longer, or maybe we can support someone a little bit longer, like Kathy said before, you know, if someone has a VR counselor and at 90 days, VR is comfortable with closing them, but maybe they might need a little bit more support. That might be a gap we can fill or a little bit more job coaching or financial literacy or something like that. And so we really focused on the design of our project to try to rapidly engage individuals as much as we can. We can serve someone start to finish on our own as a project. We don't have to have a built in external component, but we recognize the significance of resource connection, obviously. So both now and down the road for folks, if they're not receiving our support, knowing what resources exist, who can help with different things. And so it's still an ongoing process. So part of that outreach, Kathy mentioned hundreds and hundreds of outreach. We have to hit folks with the right info that makes sense to them. And so for as long as this project's going, I think it will always be a focal point for us to make sure that, you know, it's just clear what we do and what we don't do and what we can do to just try to support agencies and programs that do exist already, but then also knowing we can do a pretty good job on our own if we had to, so.   Carol: So let's hone in a little bit. You've talked a lot about outreach and have mentioned VR, but let's talk about those VR partnerships. How are your teams building relationships at the state and local level, and what can VR agencies gain from working with your project?   Lucas: Yeah, so the teams have done a really good job focusing on building relationships with vocational rehab. Again, trying to listen to what the needs are, what they're seeing as needs, and then versus, you know, collaboration of what we can offer teams that are working on having regular check ins set up. As with any agency, you know, some relationships have been a little more natural than others. But continuing to work together to try to establish those pipelines and that knowledge base of our existence, and then also that need for the individuals that are eligible for TANF. And so I always kind of say, you know, what's in it for VR agencies? And from my perspective, at least, our project can increase access to services and resources that could make service delivery easier or more efficient or more effective, which should then lead to increase or better outcomes. That's the goal. One of our objectives, as Kathy touched on, is to establish a system that connects. Connects the folks eligible for TANF and other entities such as vocational rehab. And so we're really continuing to focus on that and going to continue to ramp that up throughout the project. As the more, you know, line level relationships exist with the different offices and the different staff. And we've learned that adults with disabilities receiving TANF benefits are often best served by VR. As I mentioned, you know, programs can be complex sometimes, and so trying to smooth that out a little bit might be helpful for them. So we kind of see an additional potential to have connect VR teams with employers. We just talked about our ability and John and his team. They have very robust employer connections across the country. And so that'll be a regular interaction. So we might be able to connect some employers. Some of our interest is connecting educational partners as well. So looking at programs that can help foster people to get into good jobs and, you know, and other stakeholders of course, as well. So we kind of see it as a very big collaboration opportunity for our teams. And I really think at the end of the day, it really just to me looks at shared impact. So we work together. How can we all show that the good work everybody's doing is impactful and supporting the individuals that are coming to us that are needing that support?   Carol: It takes a village. It really does.   Lucas: It does. It takes a village. And we have one team, the state they're in recently. Just last month went on order of selection. And so we're using that as another opportunity to be a support because at least I know us in this podcast know when going on Order of Selection, the most significant disabilities have to be focused first. And so those individuals with less significant disabilities are typically the ones that have to wait. And we can serve them. So that team is working with their VR agency to make sure that's known, so that if they have folks going on the waiting list, that it might be a great opportunity to shift them to us and we can support them while they're on the waiting list. And whenever the time would come for that release, we can just catch up together and see where we're at.   Carol: That's a perfect example of really great collaboration, I love that. That I'm glad you mentioned that.   Kathy: Yeah, I just want to mention too, it's kind of tied into that. The reason we're seeing agencies start to use Order of Selection is because of increasing costs. This project would not cost BR to use our services because we're funded through the grant. So if you need an employment service provider, we are one as part of this project and you would not have to pay fee for service or contract us. We're already being paid through the grant, so it really helps with cost.   Carol: Yeah that's perfect. So as you guys look at the year ahead, what are your priorities and what does success look like for FASST as you continue to grow and refine your model?   Lucas: Many things, but I think largely continuing to strengthen the project. You know, we're still relatively new in implementation. And so we've learned a lot and will continue to learn a lot. And so we just really want to make sure we're maximizing the positive impact of the individuals we're serving. First of all, strengthen develop clear pathways. The end goal would be for this to be replicable at the end to scale our model effectively. And so I really think this second year, now that the team's together, everybody's getting comfortable with our process. This year is really where the car starts driving full speed, is how I feel. And I know Kathy, you have some ideas on quality and partnerships too, right?   Kathy: Definitely. As an internal evaluator, I'm looking at quality of this project. I want to make sure that we're ensuring fidelity to our model and the key components of our model and project, and we're going to be making adjustments throughout the next year, especially based on the needs of our participants and even our staff. And we're going to be capitalizing on our successes and sharing best practices across our teams through those communities of practice that Lucas talked about. We want to be consistent in implementing our project across the teams and our locations. So again, we have process documents and we're making sure that we're doing things similarly across our locations. And then we're definitely going to be collecting data. We've already started that process, and we want to make sure that we can demonstrate our outcomes so that we can inform our improvements and just really develop that replicable model in the end. And then as far as collaborations and partnerships go, we're working with our local partners to strengthen our connections and expand resources for our disconnected youth and adults with disabilities. So really looking forward to the next year being strengthening of our program and proving our model.   Carol: Well spoken like a true evaluator indeed, I love that. Oh, that is good stuff. So how could our listeners learn more about your work or connect with the FASST team? Do you have a website or something you could share with us.   Lucas: Yeah, so there's a few ways. So if someone's wanting to get connected to Kathy and I quick, we have an email. It's FASST, which is FASST@ServiceSource.org. Comes directly to Kathy and I, and we can answer questions if it's specific to a team, a referral, something like that. We get it out to the appropriate folks across the different teams. We do have a website. There's a lot of hyphens in it, but so largely it's ServiceSource.org/families-achieving-sufficiency-together. The hyphens had to be in there. So it's a little much if someone's trying to write it down. So I don't know if there's a way to have that posted somehow.   Carol: Yeah, we'll definitely put that in when we post the podcast. We can put that in the transcript too, to have the website linked right there.   Lucas: And then, also always like to put a plug in for the National Clearinghouse of Rehabilitation Training Materials, or NCRTM. They have a website for all DIF grantees that provides information about the project so you can see any of the grant cycles, what they're doing, where they're located, and of course, ours being one of them. So it has information and also ties folks back to our project site as well.   Carol: Well, Heather Servais will sure appreciate that shout out to them. They have great stuff. I sure appreciate you both very much. This is interesting. It'll be fun to catch up with you in a year or so and see, like now that you said you're kind of going full speed ahead to see where things land, I appreciate you.   Kathy: Thank you.   Lucas: Thank you so much.   {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.   Lucas: The contents of this discussion were developed under Grant H421F240144 from the US Department of Education Department. The Department does not mandate or prescribe practices, models or other activities described or discussed in this discussion. The contents of this discussion may contain examples of adaptations of, and links to, resources created and maintained by another public or private organization. The. The department does not control or guarantee the accuracy, relevance, timeliness or completeness of this outside information. The content of this discussion does not necessarily represent the policy of the department. This publication is not intended to represent the views or policy, or be an endorsement of any views expressed or materials provided by any federal agency. Edgar. 75.620.   Carol: Well, thank you both. I really appreciate you. Good job.   Kathy: Thanks Carol.   Lucas: Thank you so much.   Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

Lucas DiPietrantonio is CEO and co-founder of Darkroom, a 3-year-old creative e-commerce growth agency that launches new brands to market and grows existing brands to maturity through four robust and specialized verticals: branding, technology, video production, and growth marketing Darkroom often serves as an incubator and marketing partner for companies so new they don't have a brand, a visual identity, or a tech stack. “But we are selective,” Lucas explains. A typical client company profile would be a consumer-facing, consumer-packaged-goods (CPG) brand with a strong founding team and enough raised capital or the ability to bootstrap that the company could rapidly scale. Darkroom launches 7 to 9 new companies a year. As an example, for the past two years Darkroom has been incubating an internal venture with one of its external partners: a collection of high-quality, limited edition, luxury, athleisure performance “sneakers” unlike, Lucas says, “anything you've seen.” Both Nira sneakers and the pre-launch site https://www.nera01.com/ go live on December 15th and are designed to organically grow the word of this shoe. A main site for the brand will target different demographics and have a different purpose. In this interview, Lucas explains how different approaches to video affect its effectiveness. Many companies will engage agencies that are strictly performance-focused and do the creative in-house or engage another agency to do their creative work. Over time, this dichotomy results in a lack of strategic focus and content cohesiveness. Lucas claims that people come to Darkroom because the agency's integrated production, creative, and performance team can develop a company's content strategy, with the “two sides (creative and performance) of the same brain” operating in synchrony. The close fit between performance and creative creates a consistent “content engine” with a “feedback loop.” The result? The highest-quality-currently-available content over a long period of time at about the same cost as in in-house marketer. The agency's high performing, converting websites work because visual identity and marketing create a cohesive digital experience that maps onto the customer experience of other things like packaging. Lucas says everything needs to feel cohesive.  Lucas writes a number of online columns and recommends people check out his informative entrepreneur.com. He is available on LinkedIn as Lucas DiPietrantonio, on his agency's website at: darkroomagency.com, or by email at Lucas@Darkroomagency.com. Rob: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk. And I'm joined today by Lucas DiPietrantonio, CEO and co-founder of Darkroom based in Los Angeles, California. Welcome to the podcast, Lucas. Lucas: Yeah, Rob, thanks so much for having me, really great to be here. Rob: Super to have you here. Why don't you start off by giving us a rundown of Darkroom and where the agency excels? Lucas: Yeah, of course, of course. First of all, just wanted to thank you for having me on the show, really appreciate it and excited to talk about Darkroom. This was an agency that me and my co-founder Jackson Corey, we founded about three years ago. And it's really evolved quite rapidly in the past year or so I'd say has really just become something different than what it was, but at its core we're creative growth agency specifically built for e-commerce. And we're really predicated on doing two specific things: launching new brands to market and growing existing brands to maturity. And we do that through four major disciplines which I think are quite rare in the e-commerce space: One is branding, two technology, three video production, and four is growth marketing. And I really think we found service market fit in the past like three months or so and it's just been a scale-game-since year, but yeah, it's been really interesting and fun growing the company, but you'll notice we do quite a bit. Each of those verticals are pretty robust and specialized. Rob: I'll be eager to dig into those. The two different segments of clients you mentioned, it seems fairly interesting, especially when you're talking about that embryonic sort of brand. How do you think about when you're looking at a new e-commerce brand looking at client selection, because there's an element of, to get them somewhere you have to see something in that client that you believe is meaningful in the market. Lucas: The brands we work with from conception, first of all, we are pretty selective with any of the companies that we do end up engaging with. But those that actually want to work with us from conception, they don't have a brand, they don't have a visual identity, or any sort of tech stack. They have an operational idea, an assemblance of what they want to do. We'll come in and serve as their marketing partner. With a lot of these pre-launch companies, we service them almost as if we're an incubator, which is incredibly fun and rewarding to work with them on, but we are selective. My co-founder Jackson is the only person who will touch branding engagements for the firm, that's just by virtue of having quality control over our creative output on the brand side of things. So it's minimal.  There's probably seven to nine brands we'll launch each year and we are pretty particular about it. Some of the formula things that we look for are CPG brand, consumer facing, really strong founding team, most often raised capital of some degree so they can eventually scale or has bootstrapped and has the ability to scale pretty rapidly after launch. That founding team needs to be strong operators and people we really believe in. We work with people as if we're investing in them. It's important for us to feel really good about the partnership. On the incubation side, that's how we really engage with companies and what we look for. Rob: Interesting. Is there an example you can give, just to fill in some of the context here, of a brand you've kind of taken through that early launch stage that maybe we can go out and check out when we're done with this conversation? Lucas: Yeah. There's one that's really top of my mind and really close to home for me. It's what I've been working on for the past two years or so. It's not exactly launched just yet, but it's going to be launching in the next two months so I might as well mention it. It's a sneaker brand called Nira. It's actually a Darkroom internal venture that we've been incubating with one of our partners outside of Darkroom. It's a sneaker brand we've been working on it for the past three years. It's a long incubation period, and that's just because we've really been more involved on the operational side of things to sourcing and being hands-on more or less as founders rather than just marketing partners. But what that relationship has really looked like has been coming up with the actual brand story based on the vision of the founder distilling that into a visual identity, moving to technological specs. So we have a pretty robust pre-launch site that we're going to be launching as well as a main site, both of them are aimed at different demographics and different purposes and then we're going to be doing all of the ongoing growth initiatives. Along the way, we traveled to Italy three times . . . these sneakers are being made in Italy. They're inspired by Italian Motorsport culture. So you really get this rich vibrant marketing plan and visuals, which we've really enjoyed a fast shoe, fast sneaker, but for people who are going to listen to the podcast these sneakers are going live and our pre-launch site is going live on December 15th at nirashops.com. And, you know, that's about a month and a half away, and it's a pretty big launch that we're gearing up for one that we're really excited about. Rob: How many varieties are you launching with colorways? And is there an angle for the collector market when you're in the sneaker land here? Lucas: Yeah, so all of these sneakers are limited. We're only producing like a few hundred pairs of each sku, so we definitely wanted to go into this with the idea of quality over quantity, perfecting our craft. We're using some of the best craftsmen and all of Italy. We've vetted quite a few different factories they're being made in the Abruzzo region near LA marsh. And you know, each individual shoe probably touches 44 different hands and takes 48 hours to build so they're very high quality. We're launching with only seven different skus -- so not too many. they're going to be tranche out in terms of releases. But we've got so many different shoes that we've made along the way that we're hoping to release that we just can't release. So that pre-launch site that I was mentioning on December 15th, we have these really limited, beautiful sneakers, they're unlike anything you've seen, it's like an athleisure performance shoe, but it's luxury And you know, you're not going to run with it.  And it's like a suede shoe So it's, it's interesting, but it doesn't look like a common project or what you would typically expect from a lot of these USD to see brands popping up from Italy so it's definitely got its own niche. But that site on December 15th that we're launching because we have all of these prototypes it's going to be for our friends and family that we've been talking about for the past three years. And they're like, hey, when can I get a sneaker, when can I get a shoe? Like those look awesome, when can I have some more information? What we're going to be releasing is a prelaunch site aimed at just kind of growing the word of this shoe organically. So there'll be some referral structures built in, but everyone who sort of accesses that website will have an opportunity to, you know, get a free pair, but also get a prototype. So, a pair that will never release ever . . . one that is a one-on-one sneaker. I mean, you have to do a few different things to actually be able to qualify to get that sneaker, but that's how we're really going to give them back to our community who supported us early on. Rob: That's excellent. I think you've given us a pretty good walkthrough and how you are even thinking about branding and how that would translate through to clients. You started to bridge, I think, a little bit into the technology, but e-commerce is a wide berth when it comes to technology. Paint a picture of what your range of engagement looks like on the technology side. Lucas: Yeah, so for most, I would say probably 80% of our business is e-com and that's just because we've really built an agency that can service SMBs or larger mid-market e-commerce brands really well, because we just know that customer. We're launching our own brands in the e-com space and we know exactly what they need and know exactly what they don't need and don't want to pay for. On the technological front in e-com, your website is your storefront. It needs to be highly optimized. If it's not, you're just leaving money on the table. We build really high performing, converting websites that are also just top-notch from a brand perspective. Because we're doing your visual identity and we're also doing your marketing, we can maintain cohesion across the digital experience and how that maps onto the customer experience – like packaging. You want everything to feel cohesive.  At the simplest and most important level we're doing digital products for e-commerce brands. For ongoing engagements, we'll do things like conversion rate optimization, web support, really being that back engine driver of an e-commerce brand. And you'll really talk about me say Darkroom being an engine, or like a Ninja for an executioner for a lot of the companies that we work with because we're genuinely trying to position ourselves in that way. We have an office in Odessa and Ukraine spent quite a bit of time and money and resources figuring out the perfect market for affordable, but really high-quality labor for a lot of these brands. They're not going to pay American engineers who are working on software, and if you don't want to touch, you know, Woo Commerce or Shopify or your headless website unless they're getting paid, you know, 180K annually plus . . . that doesn't work for a lot of SMBs. So we've invested quite a bit in our infrastructure and overseas markets and we've worked with people from everywhere and just landed on Odessa and Ukraine as a perfect market for our use case and our needs. And you know, just for your insight – Darkroom, we did start as just a design and development agency so we've got a pretty high competency on, on the technological front. And, you know, the other 20% of our engagements are Darkroom digital engagements, where they might be more robust digital applications, things of that nature. Rob: Yeah, you mentioned a few different platforms and there, you mentioned Woo Commerce, which some people may know, you mentioned Shopify, which is a big, big name. And something you mentioned that people may not be as familiar with is the headless situation, which it's a content system, but I assume you're building perhaps sort of a bespoke front end, but still using a backend e-commerce engine? Lucas: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different ways to approach that. Shopify has also become headless recently, so it just depends on like the specific needs of the client and what they're looking for. I think you're going to start to see the e-commerce landscape move more in the headless direction. Also the no-code direction, using platforms like Shogun and other sort of systems that come up for these SMB convents specifically. The digital landscape on the e-commerce front is definitely changing pretty rapidly, People want more flexibility. They want it to be easier, quicker, that's a lot of the stuff that we do. Some people just don't want to deal with their technology, but there are a lot of brands and companies coming out with interesting solutions for clientele across the spectrum in terms of size. Rob: You seemed to be very interested, especially in your own work, but in general, in working with non-commodity brands. How do you think about, when you're working with them, the distinction between what commerce they want to have on their site or other places they may want to sell? It seems like almost every big brand wants to be a marketplace now. I think Target even, they'll sell stuff that they don't stock – so how do you think about where your clients should be selling? Lucas: Yeah. It's definitely determined on a case by case basis. You'll have some products that are going to do really well on Amazon or other channels and others that, we might recommend just strictly to see and try and build out that brand. For our clientele, we definitely prefer working with really strong, authentic brands, people who either really know their customer and have developed great relationships with them. And I can think of a number of different companies that we work with off the top of my head that really satiate that criteria. And the other thing is like for me, the agency is all about the people and the sort of talent that we attract and I genuinely want our people to feel happy and fulfilled on the work that they're doing. And that necessitates founders who have built great products or are doing something different or are doing something positive to really excite our staff.  Everything from there follows: you have high employee satisfaction, high client satisfaction, the retention rate goes up across the board, and you also get a great portfolio off of that work. I definitely try and look for brands that are a good fit for us. There are definitely some brands that are not a good fit for us and we'll just say that off of the gate, out of the sales process. But ultimately that's where we perform best because we're definitely a brand-focused agency. We want to see our clients succeed. Sometimes it's hard to tell a client what to do if they don't want to do it. Rob: Certainly, I can imagine, if you have an undifferentiated product, if there's low margins, all of those things are going to reduce the flexibility increase. Now, not to say there shouldn't always be pressure to perform because e-commerce is definitionally pressure to perform, but the margin of creativity and in a low margin business can just be such a challenge. Now, you mentioned another discipline that you do work in is video production. I'm sure some clients come to you thinking the key to their entire future is that viral video that's going to get out there. Everybody's going to beat down the door to their site and buy all their stuff. But how do you guide a client's expectations on what is necessary at what stage of the business in terms of video marketing? Lucas: Yeah. Expectation-setting is baked into every single step of our process. It's only when you have a client who's really dialed into their goals, but is not over-projecting what they've like unrealistic expectations, where we can really sit head-to-head and come up with a strategy for success. On the video side of things people come to us because we are generating the highest quality content in e-commerce right now. And that's by sheer virtue of our talent – people we've attracted and how we're doing e-com content differently. Every e-commerce company – they're interested in performance and performance marketing, but they'll engage agencies who are either strictly focused on performance and are not thinking about creative because they just don't have that side of their brain operating. So they'll engage your performance agency and then they'll do their creative in house, or they'll engage in another agency who's doing their creative – but these people are not actively thinking about their performance because they're just not operating in the ad account. Or they're not actually deploying those videos, or they don't know exactly how to create videos that will go viral or will perform really well. You have this like separation between creative and performance and it makes no sense. What we've done is we've integrated our video production team, our creative team, and our performance team. Our growth channels and our creative teams operate as two sides of the same brain. What you get is this really nice feedback loop where performance informs creative and creative tests hypotheses and you constantly learn. The way our video production services work – they are meant to be a content engine for a lot of these e-commerce brands. E-Commerce brands traditionally will do things in house, they'll do a sporadic photo shoot when they need content and be like, “Oh, I need this now because we're getting ad fatigue or things aren't performing well, or we need more video content. There's no strategy really behind that. Or you'll engage a production company every six months with a new concept and they'll execute on that. There's no cohesion with the content. If there is, it just takes more time and effort, you need an internal creative director, or whatever it might be.  Our video production service offering, you get a team that is with you from the start, they figure out your content strategy for the next six months, and then we execute against that. So you get consistent content over a long period of time and it costs you about the same as when you've got a producer director, video editor, the entire post team from pre to post – it costs you the same as an in-house marketer. So that's been one of our most popular services, which has been awesome.  On the viral side of things, sometimes we'll layer UGC some of our video that we take on set with our influencer marketing service offering, and we can definitely tap into vitality, just it needs to be done, right. And by reality is all about just experimentation testing hypotheses and seeing what sticks. Rob: I have to ask while we're talking about production, how did in March the COVID-19 pandemic onset affect your production? How was your handling of video production shifted over the course of the past six or seven months? Lucas: That's a good question. It definitely took a hit at the beginning of what we were doing – just business in general, there was a little bit of a slide. I think people were really scared, they didn't know what was going to happen. There was definitely fear in the marketplace, a lot of young SMB startups were like, “Are people going to be purchasing my products anymore? Are they going to have the disposable income to do that?” There was definitely a fear. I wrote about it quite extensively in some of my columns, but what ended up happening, and I think as everyone knows, is e-commerce is really having its moment right now. So, our growth really just started popping off quickly thereafter. We were set up in such a way to help a lot of these brands who are like, “Oh my God, we need to shift, we need to focus more on e-com. Our content is now so much more important. How we're communicating online is now critical to our success.” We were really positioned in a great way to just have those conversations early on and help a lot of our partners that we were talking to who needed some of these things. And it helped that we had been investing in video production to the past two years, built a great team off of Oliver Salk, one of my great friends and coworkers now. He's just exceptional and he's building our video production team. We've made the right choices. That we invested in all of our equipment and we invested in our studio in downtown LA. That's afforded us the privilege and freedom of not being constrained to rentals or venturing out. We could do things really safe and protected in LA under our roof. So that was advantageous. Rob: You mentioned your columns in passing. What are the columns, where should we go to find those, if we want to kind of read some of your perspective, are there? Lucas: Yeah, I think the most informative one is going to be my entrepreneur column. So just going to entrepreneur.com. Honestly, searching anything about e-commerce . . . coronavirus, I'll probably pop up. Rob: Excellent positioning there. Lucas, as you reflect back on the journey so far with Darkroom, what are some things you have learned that you might do differently if you were starting over from scratch today? Lucas: That's tough. I don't know that I would do to anything differently per se, because they've all been pretty critical building blocks on the journey. One thing that agency founders need to understand is building an agency is incredibly tough, it's really difficult. There's so many, and there's so many different things that go into it. Figuring out how you're going to be set up for scale is one of the early challenges I think, beyond getting clients and doing good work and all of the other things that just go into making a profitable service business. I think people sometimes underestimate the difficulty associated with it. One thing that I would have maybe done differently is, and it's tough to really say this, but I'll give you my thoughts. One thing that I may have done differently is literally just focus on one vertical so quickly. It took us a little while to adopt this e-commerce-specific focus and change our messaging and our core competency towards this one vertical. It's no secret, I've been working in e-commerce for a while. So has Jackson, my co-founder. We both started fashion and apparel e-commerce businesses, that's how we met – that's how we started collaborating. But when we started our agency, we were doing work for everyone . . . we didn't actually hone in on that demographic and really become specialized. And I think there are two ways to build an agency. You either really become specialized and understand your customer and when they come to you, you're like, “Hey, we've done this for many other brands just like you and we can definitely do this and accomplish what you want.” That makes your sales process so much easier with that specific client. Or you can say, “Hey, we do everything and you're going to have a much lower conversion rate because they're going to be competing against the other agencies that are being specialized. But you can say, we're going to learn it, you get the benefit of us doing a lot of different things and having competency in a lot of different areas and we want to be generalists.” But that, I think only takes you so far unless you're a behemoth of an agency. So, I may have become specialized a little bit sooner because as soon as we started doing it, we started to scale at a crazy pace. But again, it was part of the journey. We needed to figure out what we liked, what we were really good at, where there was opportunity, and white space in the market. For us, that just came by looking at the competition in the e-commerce DTC agency space, which now we're scaling. I think other people look at our brand compared to some of our competitors, and these are just our competitors right now and it's just a no brainer. Rob: It's so critical. You mentioned earlier the fit, you feel like you found with your service offerings in the market and especially in startup world, they also talk about South sort of a founder market fit. And I think the journey of a lot of agencies that do well is using the market as sort of a painful tool to figure out who you are. And oftentimes, you know, it's almost like you wish there was a personality test you could take up front to help you see “Here's who you are. Here are the vertical markets that fit you. Here are the service offerings that fit you. Here are the things you wish someone could tell you.” But it seems like quite often you have to just learn some lessons along the way. Lucas: You got to just figure it out and the only way to figure it out is by doing it and screwing up and realizing, “Oh, this isn't going to work.” When that happened, it was so many different times that now I can get on a call with someone who's vetting us and describe my service and describe why that service is better than every other agency who hasn't figured it out yet. And when you're speaking from experience and just empathizing with the customer, you know, it makes your life so much easier. It's not a sale anymore it's just, you're providing them with a service that they genuinely really need and would be better than any other service that they engage in. And that's what a lot of my job has been. it's been making sure the services are as value-packed as possible and building out each vertical individually. So, the branding service, the technology offering.  The technology offering is one of the best out there in the e-commerce space, because there is so much BS and noise coming from development agencies who are just flat out lying. And it becomes a really big vulnerability for a lot of e-commerce brands who engage with other agencies or freelancers or whatever it is, and they don't have consistent support. So, the development offering, that's something I've been working on past quarter. Video production, same deal, just building that engine, building it out from our foundation and making it really value-packed. The amount of deliverables and hands-on content you get from our production department right now, it's unheard of. I've had other production agencies, or honestly, some of our hires who've come from other production agencies and they're like, “Wow, you're offering this? This is crazy. How are you doing this? We should be charging more.” And I'm like, “No, I want this to be value-packed. I want to deliver crazy value to our clients.” So yeah, it's just really being detailed about the services and knowing what's going to work. Rob: Sure. Coming from a development background myself, I can imagine. It seems like in all three of those initial disciplines you mentioned in branding and technology and video production. Lucas: [Inaudible 28:42]  Rob: Yeah. There's a potential high element of trust, like a lot of those things don't really work until they're done. And you can show progress along the way, but I think people have probably been bitten in all three of those areas by someone taking their money and not giving them a finished product. Lucas: Yeah. Especially in development, right. That's just always happening. Or it's like, you know, four months in, when you're supposed to have a delivered product, it's like, this is going to take a long time. Like this is going to take required 10,000 more dollars or timelines shift, or your code is just crap . . . there's so many different things that could go wrong there. And that's just all about trust, right? So now we're at a place where we've got dialed-in processes that are cut and dried. It's like, “This is how it's going to go.” You can see it in all of our work products. You can see our portfolio and especially in the e-commerce space again, where I feel like there is a lack of creativity unless you're paying top dollar for it. Unless you have a great creative idea as a founder and you can get it done and know how to piece these things together, which is always the case and it has been the case for a while. We'll deliver a website. People would just be like, “Wow, this is incredible.” Some of our web work is we go above and beyond. Rob: Lucas, when people want to find you and connect with you and with Darkroom – maybe see that portfolio as well – where should they go to find you?  Lucas: They can go to LinkedIn. Type in Lucas DiPietrantonio, or check out Darkroom's website, darkroomagency.com. Reach out to us. You can reach out to me via email Lucas@Darkroomagency.com. I'm usually pretty responsive and try and reach out to everyone or get back to everyone who reaches out to me.  Rob: Super legit. Well, Lucas DiPietrantonio, thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing the story of Darkroom with us. Be well. Lucas: Yeah, Rob, thanks so much. I appreciate you having me on here, it was fun.  Rob: All right. Thanks. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how converged can automate your marketing reporting, email info@converthq.com or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Episode Notes [“Coffee” Theme by Cambo]Gabriel Firmo: Alright, so welcome back to State of the Arts, a podcast by two idiots on NBN. My name is Gabriel Firmo.Lucas Bezerra: And I'm Lucas Bezerra. And Happy 2020!Gabriel: Yeah, welcome back. It was surprisingly quick, the break.Lucas: It was extremely quick. Well, the break was quick, but traveling back was not. I think you took a direct flight from Brazil.Gabriel: Yes, it is the worst.Lucas: I did not. It's not the worst for you. I mean, jumping around on airplanes wasn't fun. But we're back. We're here recording our third episode of State of the Arts.Gabriel: Yeah. And so what is the...? We have a pretty traditional question to start the year?Lucas: Yeah I mean, I figured we'd just do a little recap of 2019 and our favorite arts-related thing that we did. It could be like, one in Northwestern, one out of Northwestern.Gabriel: That we did or that we consumed?Lucas: That we did, that we consumed, I guess is a better way to put it. That we saw, experienced.Gabriel: Okay, okay, that makes more sense. Yeah. Do you have one like right off the bat?Lucas: I've got one for my Northwestern.Gabriel: Okay, go for it!Lucas: It isn't really at Northwestern. But yeah, it was during my time here; as soon as I got here, basically. So the MCA last year had a Virgil Abloh Expo. And that Expo was really cool. It really showed like his sort of vision of what design and what art is, and he's got a lot of--Gabriel: That was out here at Northwestern?Lucas: No, that was in the MCA, like in Chicago.Gabriel: Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Okay. Yeah,Lucas: But it was while I was here, I guess this could be my not Northwestern.Gabriel: I mean, I guess that kind of counts for it? There's no hard and fast rule.Lucas: No, but I kind of want to showcase something from Northwestern. Gabriel: Okay, sure. Lucas: So let's leave that as my not Northwestern-related.Gabriel: Yeah. This year I went to--so Giovana, my girlfriend, she surprised me with tickets to Next to Normal, which is my favorite musical of all time. Lucas: Just to be clear, not Next to Normal at Northwestern.Gabriel: No, no--That was also amazing.Lucas: That was really good.Gabriel: But there was one that was playing in a nearby town. And I was surprised with tickets and we went, and it was like it brought me to tears on like two different, three different occasions. Just like throughout the runthrough. And that was just like crazy. I had never seen any of my favorite musicals live before and Next to Normal, it's just like so near and dear to me. So it was crazy good. Definitely highlight of my 2019. Next to Normal at Northwestern, also very good,Lucas: Also very good, yeah.Gabriel: But it would be kind of terrible if both of my highlights Northwestern and non-Northwestern were both Next to Normal.Lucas: Yeah. Next to Normal was the first thing that I did here, arts-related. Well, that I went to. But I have to say maybe my highlight was going to--So our guest on the second episode, Joe, his band, another Northwestern-based band and a third Chicagoland group had a performance. They had a gig, North Side of Chicago. It was a little bit after we interviewed Joe. So, he told me about it, and I went, and both his band was great, but also the other Northwestern band. So I'm just gonna, I'm gonna shout them out again. So Joe's band is called Morning Dew and the other band is called Honey Butter. And they're both really good.Gabriel: Damn, I really need to go to one of these.Lucas: You really do.Gabriel: I did not manage to go last quarter.Lucas: It was a lot of fun. And it was full of Northwestern students and just good energy, you know?Gabriel: Yeah, I mean, that sounds--I'm not a big concert person so I always get a little bit "eh," but for music on like the smaller scale where it's not the enormous super packed concerts I feel like it'd be more fun just in general. For my Northwestern thing, I think Dolphin Show 2019 was Hello Dolly. And I remember Hello Dolly being so extraordinary--and like both of mine are musical theatre.Gabriel: Man, Hello Dolly was so good it made me want to write stuff again and sing again. I hadn't written in a good while, and I hadn't performed any music for a very long time because I had stopped taking classes when I came here. And I remember I came out of Hello Dolly and I turned to one of my friends and was like we need to start some project together because I am so inspired.Lucas: Yeah.Gabriel: Because, for a student musical that thing was--not even for student musical just completely even out of its context it would be one of the best shows I've ever seen. It was so, so, so, so good.Gabriel: So actually our guest for this week, because we have a guest every week is Elynnor Sandefer. She is someone I'm super excited to interview. She's an old friend of mine at the school, but also just kind of someone that I met tangentially through my creative writing classes. She was one of the most unique writers there. Like, there are a lot of very good writers at Northwestern, and for sure, Elynnor is one of them. But specifically, like her style and her choice of topics was always one thing that was just so out of left field that makes her a very, very unique writer, and she was actually one of the first people I suggested when we start with the show.Lucas: Yeah, so I'm excited. I met her today, didn't really get a chance to talk to her that much. I’m excited for this.Gabriel: Yeah. Let’s go to that now!Gabriel: Ok so, we are here now with our guest, Elynnor.Elynnor Sandefer: Hello!Gabriel: Would you like to kinda introduce yourself, say what you do that’s artsy...Lucas: Why do you think we asked you here, I guess?Elynnor: I'm Elynnor, I put words together and make them do things. Optimistically, good things. I'm here because Gabriel has had some writing classes with me and thinks that my work is weird.Gabriel: Yeah. I think it's good, also. Like, disclaimer.Elynnor: That can be the same thing.Gabriel: But very weird.Elynnor: Yeah. Thank you.Gabriel: Like, that is...I mean, we'll get into that in a bit. I think like the standard first question that we ask everyone here, which is that like, necessarily, if you're doing art on a university campus, like you're pre-validation, essentially, like you're not getting any external validation most of the time. Especially for writers more than any other profession. So, with that in mind, why do you do it? Like when no one is in your corner, why do you still do it? Elynnor: Well, the work that I do is mostly writing. And for me, a lot of that starts with journaling. So I do it for my own brain before anybody else's brain. And in that sense, validation has never been that significant. Okay, that sounds wrong. It sounds like I don't take criticism. But everything I make is usually first for myself, which I find works for me. When I write things it is because I'm driven there by some kind of personal urgency. So to that extent, I don't really care if other people want to read it. I also haven't started trying to publish yet so that may change, will change, definitely will change.Gabriel: Okay. Yeah.Lucas: Yeah. I mean it from what I've heard about you and what you write... When I met you today, I mean, you asked me about my opinion on melons?Elynnor: I sure did.Lucas: And I've heard that you wrote an essay on whether boba is a soup.Elynnor: I sure did.Lucas: So you've got a wide range of topics, although they do seem to revolve around food somehow.Elynnor: Yeah, that's been pointed out to me. I don't know what to make of that. I don't eat that much.Lucas: So I guess like, where does the inspiration for this kind of stuff come from? Like, what are you trying...Where does it, how does it work in your brain? I guess.Elynnor: Um, well, I have a tendency to hyper fixate on things, often objects. So the cereal being soup is something I fixated on for a while last year. Melons are something I just find personally interesting right now because people don't seem to think that they have strong opinions. But if you ask them for an opinion, they almost always have one. Except for when they don't know what a melon is...like some people.Gabriel: Is that a call-out? I think that’s a call-out. ’Cause she asked me what a cantaloupe was, and I was just like, I blanked on it. I only know fruit names in Portuguese.Lucas: Not gonna lie, same. I mean, she asked me specifically about cantaloupes and I... No images came to mind. So...Gabriel: But like, I have read a little bit of your stuff, and so this is a really interesting thing is that you talk about these hyper fixations, which are some kind of like oddball ideas, but you do take them somewhere, right? You're not just writing about melons or just writing about, "Is boba a soup or is cereal a soup?" You do something in the nature of all nonfiction, which is something more profound out of like kind of surrealist or just kind of out of nowhere topics. So, what is exactly that process like? Because at least from my perspective, I also do a fair bit of writing and a lot of your topics I can't even really imagine inroads into that range, you know?Elynnor: Well, for cantaloupe, it was that my roommate was cutting a cantaloupe, and I realized I had forgotten about fruit, and I just hadn't eaten fruit in a long time. I started getting worried about scurvy because like citrus or something. But I don't know, I was watching her cut a cantaloupe. And it occurred to me that it just, I don't know, it would never occur to me to buy a cantaloupe. And I thought that was really interesting, because they've been a part of my life for a long time. They have them in dining halls, they're terrible in the dining halls and just generally average. So I use them in an essay I was already writing at the time as just like a joke about the realm of averageness. But yeah, I don't really know what the cantaloupes mean, except for maybe the fact that there are objects that are in everyone's life that no one really notices, but we care about...Elynnor: What do you think literature is?Gabriel: Oh God, you can’t drop that on me. This actually came up in one of my classes recently with a teacher who asked I think that exact question. And they disregarded genre fiction out of hand. So horror, sci-fi...Elynnor: That's not literature?Gabriel: That sort of stuff.Elynnor: That's a...yikes. That's a hot take.Gabriel: I think they were doing it like as a sort of, like, “Oh, it's the beginning of class and I'm going to do this to spur discussion.” Because it doesn't seem like that's their opinion, necessarily. But I was immediately as a genre fiction fan, like, "Ahh." Because fantasy is generally considered not literature.Elynnor: Okay, but I've read amazing works of literature that are fantasy in nature, and I'm angry at this person whose name I don't know.Gabriel: But so you are just like, "Anything is literature".Elynnor: Well, I think that art more broadly speaking is anything whose existence is conditional upon a very particular arrangement of human choice. And I think that, within that it's very difficult to differentiate between different kinds of art. Like if you've read the poem “38” by Layli Long Soldier, this is not in that book I mentioned earlier, but it's a great poem that you should read. And in it, she is referring to a specific action/event as a poem, and that is like one of her main claims. And I think that there's a lot of power in that and saying that, well, I guess in naming what you're making or naming something, something other than it is.Gabriel: Yeah, I guess it becomes just, if it's intentional, it's art that sort of almost, that level of simplification. Which I would get, like, crucified by some of my philosophy teachers for that, but I think that is a pretty good...I mean, you're the philosophy major.Lucas: I mean, it's almost in the like, I think of the “this is not a pipe” painting. Elynnor: Ah yes, The Fault in Our Stars.Lucas: I'm not sure... Yeah, I mean, it's just this sort of idea that the objects and the things that we conceive of as being what they are...Gabriel: Are totally a construction?Lucas: Yeah.Gabriel: So you can just say anything is anything.Lucas: I wouldn't go... I wouldn't say that.Lucas: But that's an idea. I guess.Elynnor: Sometimes it's fun to.Lucas: Sometimes it’s fun to.Gabriel: I mean, in that case, then I'll just say boba is soup.Elynnor: It obviously is!Lucas: I mean, she walked in here and called this podcast art.Gabriel: Yeah. That was, that was quite surprising.Elynnor: To be fair, I have not listened to it. No offense, I'm sure it's great. I just didn’t know about it.Lucas: Yeah, I think we're running out of time. We always end our episodes by asking our guests to plug something on campus that they are excited for related to the arts. Could be anything, I guess. So tell us what you're thinking.Elynnor: Well, I'm not involved with any publications or performance groups or anything like that, but my roommate and best friend is on the staff of Helicon, which is a literary and arts magazine. And you should submit to that because they want you to submit to that.Gabriel: I've read a good deal of Helicon, occasionally. I always forget about Helicon. And then I just, their book comes out, and I'll just see it around and be like "Oh!" I'll flip through it. It's really cool, what people do.Lucas: I've never heard of it.Gabriel: You should! There's very avant garde stuff in Helicon which is fun.Elynnor: If you're a visual artist, especially, you should submit to Helicon because I think visual artists forget about it. Because I think it's mainly marketed to writers.Lucas: Interesting.Elynnor: Yeah.Lucas: I like that.Gabriel: Yeah. Well...Elynnor: They publish anything. There's like a digital game thing on their website.Gabriel: Yeah. And their physical copies should be coming around soon, because it's winter, right?Elynnor: Yeah.Gabriel: Yeah. So it'll be up soon. That's really cool. Thank you for coming by. Thanks for talking to us.Elynnor: You're welcome. I hate talking to you.Gabriel: For listeners, thanks for listening and hopefully join us in two weeks. If we can manage to edit this in our regular time frame, and we'll be back with another guest and another question as per usual, so anything left to say Lucas?Lucas: No, thanks for listening. We'll see you in two weeks. All right.Elynnor: Google images of hairless cats!This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Are you interested in professional coaching, but worried you don’t have the necessary experience? Is it something you are passionate about, but you just don’t know how to market yourself? Lucas Rubix, a coach to the coaches, joins us to talk about coaching, how to get started, and mistakes to avoid. Lucas Rubix started his career working on oil rigs. After a dangerous bout of depression and self-medication, he hit a breaking point that almost led to suicide. But he stopped himself, and the next morning he woke happy to be alive. He hadn’t felt like that in ages.  So he began to focus on his health and fitness, started reading personal development books, and began studying philosophy. He wanted to find his purpose. He developed a passion for marketing and coaching, which led him to where he is today—running a business to help coaches launch their careers.  Outline of This Episode [2:40] Why did Lucas Rubix choose to become a coach? [7:50] What is Lucas’s coaching philosophy? [12:25] Mistakes to avoid when growing your coaching business [17:50] How to develop your skillset and market yourself [25:05] Get in Touch with Lucas You don’t need years of experience to be a coach  Lucas’s philosophy on coaching is this: just get started. If you’re passionate about it and believe that you can make an impact, do it. Lucas wasn’t certified when he started but was committed to answering any question his clients asked—even if it meant staying up all night doing research.  You don’t have to represent yourself as having years of experience, but simply be honest and passionate.  Everyone knows something that can help someone else. It’s a mistake to have the ability and drive to coach others, but not do it. If you know you’re the type of person who will find the answer no matter the time it costs you, you can learn and grow as you go.  Mistakes to avoid when growing your professional coaching business If you’re diving into coaching because you think it will be a short-term “get rich quick” path, it’s time to reevaluate. Lucas points out that if you don’t see yourself coaching in 10 years, question why you’re doing it in the first place. The road will be full of obstacles and challenges and it is far from easy. You need to love and be passionate about what you’re doing.  Secondly, Lucas notes that many coaches let their ego get in the way. You need to make what the client needs and wants the priority—not what you think they need or want. You also need to make sure that you’re not detached and that you’re focused on your clients. What do you need to create for them so that they’re 100% on board with the program?  How to use social media marketing properly Stop making your marketing all about you. It comes naturally for Instagram or Facebook posts to be about yourself, what you’re doing, where you’re going, etc. That’s fine, but Lucas recommends taking every post you put online and flipping it: turn an event in your life into a lesson or a story that provides value.  Your content can’t be so blatantly focused on you. It’s not about getting people to look at you and touting your success. An easy fix Lucas points out is to start removing “I” from your copy. Your social media will develop into a relationship-building tool. It can be a great way to connect with potential clients.  How do you begin to market yourself? Lucas established that social media can be a great tool to boost your presence and connect with people. But how do you drive traffic to your website? The first thing Lucas has his coaching clients do is create videos. One video a day for 30 days. It allows you to develop how you deliver your message and pushes you out of your comfort zone. He also has his clients create 9 blog posts immediately. Not only do these practices allow you to develop your voice, but it begins to build content to gain organic traffic. Lucas also advocates for paid advertising as a great driver of traffic. Above all else, he wants you to create content, speak your truth, and in doing so it will speak to your ideal client. If you have the passion and drive necessary, the skills can be developed. Put yourself in uncomfortable circumstances that will help you grow—because comfort kills progress.  Resources & People Mentioned Lucas Rubix’s Website Lucas on Instagram Lucas on Facebook Lucas on YouTube Check out his Podcast! Musicfor “Just The Tips” is titled, “Happy Happy Game Show” by Kevin MacLeod (http://incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License Connect With James and Dean James P. Friel: CEO Quickstart: https://jamespfriel.com/ceo-quickstart/ Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/hustledetox/ Site: www.jamespfriel.com Interested in being a guest on the show? Dean Holland: Blog: www.DeanHolland.com FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/DeanHollandHQ Billion Dollar Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/BillionDollarProject/ Audio Production and Show notes by PODCAST FAST TRACK https://www.podcastfasttrack.com

Panel: Charles Max Wood Lucas Reis Justin Bennett Special Guests: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with guest speaker, Peter Mbanugo. Peter is a computer software specialist who works with Field Intelligence and writes technical articles for Progress Software and a few others. He studied at SMC University and currently resides in Nigeria. They talk about his creation, Hamoni Sync, and article, Real-time editable data grid in React. Also, other topics such as Offline-First, Speed Curve, Kendo UI are talked about, too. Check out today’s episode Show Topics: 1:30 – Chuck: Let’s talk about what you built and how it works. Topic: Real-time editable data grid in React. 1:40 – Peter: Real time editing. It allows you to edit and have the data go across the different devices. Synchronizing your applications. For the  2:47 – I saw that you built also the... 2:58 – Peter: Yes, I built that with Real-time. Most of the time I have to figure out how to build something to go across the channel, such as the message. Then I built the chats. Next month 4:33 – Justin: It says that it can go offline. That is challenging. How are you going about that? 4:51 – Peter answers the question. Peter: When you loose connections and when the network comes back on then it will try to publish anything to the server while offline. If you are trying to initialize the... 5:42 – Awesome. 5:45 – Peter continues his thoughts. 5:56 – Lucas: This is really interesting. Form something really simple to tackle this problem. I have gotten into so many problems. Congratulations on at least having the courage to try such a system. 6:35 – Justin: When you have someone interacting with one of these applications, lose connectivity, is the service handling this behind the scenes? 6:56 – Peter: Yes.  Peter goes into detail. 7:19 – Justin: Neat. That would be interesting to dig more into that. 7:35 – Lucas: I had a friend who sent me links and I was like WHOAH. It’s not an easy task. 7:57 – Peter: Yes, offline – I am learning each and everyday. There are different ways to go about it. Then I go write something about conflict free of different types. I thought that was the way to go. I didn’t want it to be something of the declines. 8:50 – Lucas: How did React work for you? 9:24 – Peter answers the question. 9:58 – Panelist: I was trying to synchronize the system. There are 2 types: Operational Transformations and CRDTs. It’s a really hard problem. 10:35 – Lucas: Now we have multiple devices and they can be far away from each other. Updates to send to the same server. I think that this is really complicated world. Even consider new techniques that we use in RI. You have a long in process. You need to react to them. Maybe dates that you cannot get. Hard problem we are solving now. 11:56 –Justin: Even interacting with applications that ... it has made our products that aren’t approachable if someone doesn’t have a good Internet connection. Synchronizing connections while offline. So you can have offline support. These are problems that we can resolve hopefully. 13:01 – Lucas: It affects everyone. Back in Brazil we had problems with connections, because it’s connections. Now I live in NY but the subway my connection is hurt. 13:40 – Peter: Yes, I agree. Peter talks about his connections being an issue while living in Africa. 14:52 – Justin: How does that affect your development workflow? 15:08 – Peter answers the question. 17:23 – Justin: Shout-out to the Chrome team. Tool called LIGHTHOUSE. It can test for accessibility, SEOs and etc. Good same defaults and trying to test Mobile First. When I was learning about performance I wasn’t thinking about the types of devices that people would use. The edits tab really helps think about those things. 18:41 – Digital Ocean’s Advertisement 19:18 – Justin: Any tools to help test your download speeds or anything authentication tools? 19:36 – Peter answers this question. 20:15 – Panelist asks the same question to Lucas. 20:22 – Lucas: interesting question. Even though the website was doing pretty well we were in the dark. We did a huge migration and it wasn’t clear about the performance. So my first mission here was start using a tool called SPEED CURVE. It only gets better. For a company who needs to acquire a tool SPEED CURVE is great. They have the LIGHTHOUSE measurements in their dashboards. So it can follow through time your scores and all of your analysis. These are the tools we use today. They have both synthetic and real user monitoring. So when we are measuring things on our Chrome it is a picture of your machine (biased picture) they make it both synthetic and film your page and compare through time. Analyze your assets. Some code on your application and collects statistics for each user. Relic I have used before, too. I do believe those tools are of great help. I am sure there are opensource initiatives, but I haven’t played 22:56 – Peter: Have you tried...? 23:07 – Lucas continues. LIGHTHOUSE. 23:56 – Justin: It gives great visualizations for people to see. SPEED CURVE. Where we are at – so they can see that – it’s powerful. 24:40 – Lucas: Interesting story we used SPEED CURVE. Real users and synthetic measurements; our website was getting slower and slower. We couldn’t figure it out. What is happening to our application? It turned out that the app more people were using it on the mobile. The real user speed was going up because they were using mobile. The share of mobile users and performance was getting better. You look at the overall average it was getting slower. Interesting lesson on how to look at data, interpret data and insights. It was really interesting. 26:21 – Peter. 26:25 – Lucas continues the previous conversation from 24:40. 27:00 – Justin: Taking the conversation back. It’s always a challenging problem because the implications are hard to use. What was your experience with React Table? What are the pros and cons? 27:40 – Peter: React Table is quite light. It is pretty good on data. I haven’t had much of a problem. It is okay to use. The other ones I haven’t tried them, yet. 28:08 – Justin: Same question to Charles and to Lucas. 28:21 – Lucas: I have never worked with big tables to render the massive data or tables that need to be edits and stuff like that. I don’t have experience with those components. Play here and there. It is interesting, because it is one of those components that are fighting the platform and it’s a good source of interesting solutions. 29:05 – Chuck: Kendo UI has one. I need something that his more barebones. AG Grid. 30:03 – Justin: React Windows. It optimizes long lists. It just renders what is in the current window. 30:22 – Ryan Vaughn. 30:28 – Justin: Cool library. 30:36 – Lucas: Use it as a learning tool. How do you all decide when to actually start using a library? As early as you can? Libraries to solve our problems? 31:19 – Peter: It depends on what I am doing. 31:53 – Fascinating question. Not one size fits all. It’s a balance between product deliverable needs and... There can be risks involved. Fine balance. I find myself doing a lot is I will default using a library first. Library that isn’t too large but what I need for that project. If there is a hairy feature I will use the library until my needs are met.  33:49 – Lucas adds his comments. Lucas: You want to differentiate yourself. I love GitHub. 35:36 – Question to Charles: I know you have tons of stuff going on. What’s your thought process? 35:53 – Chuck: If I can find stuff on the shelf I will pay for it. My time adds up much more quickly then what the dollars do. I will pay for something off the shelf. I only mess around for a while but if I can’t find something to help me then I will go and build something of my own. I got close with Zapier, but I got to the point that I wanted to put something together that I built my own thing through Ruby on Rails. Generally I will pay for it. 37:07 – Panelist: Yes, I don’t think we all don’t value our time and how expensive time is. 37:25 – Chuck: I own the business. My time is of value – it’s more important to me. It’s a trap that people fall into not to value their time. 38:11 – Lucas: We are not all working on what we SHOULD be working on. This isn’t going to bring business Productive time that we are using with stuff that is not our business or our main focus. Focus on the core product. Try to get the customers to have a better life. The mission of the company. The web community that started that most is the Ruby community. Having solutions and focusing on the problem. I think that JavaScript is now doing a better job of this. As we know it’s easy to fall into this trap and play with building blocks. 39:52 – Chuck: I have had a few people remind me that I am a DEVELOPER! 40:19 – Justin: The thing I have estimating is the difficulty of something. I can build it because I am a developer. Is it valuable for me? 41:10 – Lucas: The sunken costs sink in – I have done all this work and now look where I am at? 41:33 – Chuck: Anything else? 41:43 – Peter: Check out me through Twitter and the Dev blog. Message me anytime. 42:13 – Chuck: Picks! 42:18 – Advertisement. Links: Kendo UI Ruby on Rails Angular Get A Coder Job Redux Agile Real-time editable data grid in React Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanguo’s LinkedIn Peter Mbanguo’s Dev.To Peter Mbanguo’s GitHub Peter Mbanguo’s WordPress Lucas Reis’ Email: lucasmreis@gmail.com Charles Max Wood’s Twitter Sponsors: Kendo UI Digital Ocean Get A Coder Job Picks: Charles Book: The ONE Thing Get A Coder Job – It will be out next week! T-Shirts & Mugs – Podcast Artwork - SWAG Kickstarter – Code Badge.Org Justin RC BLOG Podcast: Indie Hackers Indie Hackers Lucas Blog Post: Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Turtle Peter Library – Opensource Masters of Skill – Podcast Book: Ego is the Enemy Book

Panel: Charles Max Wood Lucas Reis Justin Bennett Special Guests: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with guest speaker, Peter Mbanugo. Peter is a computer software specialist who works with Field Intelligence and writes technical articles for Progress Software and a few others. He studied at SMC University and currently resides in Nigeria. They talk about his creation, Hamoni Sync, and article, Real-time editable data grid in React. Also, other topics such as Offline-First, Speed Curve, Kendo UI are talked about, too. Check out today’s episode Show Topics: 1:30 – Chuck: Let’s talk about what you built and how it works. Topic: Real-time editable data grid in React. 1:40 – Peter: Real time editing. It allows you to edit and have the data go across the different devices. Synchronizing your applications. For the  2:47 – I saw that you built also the... 2:58 – Peter: Yes, I built that with Real-time. Most of the time I have to figure out how to build something to go across the channel, such as the message. Then I built the chats. Next month 4:33 – Justin: It says that it can go offline. That is challenging. How are you going about that? 4:51 – Peter answers the question. Peter: When you loose connections and when the network comes back on then it will try to publish anything to the server while offline. If you are trying to initialize the... 5:42 – Awesome. 5:45 – Peter continues his thoughts. 5:56 – Lucas: This is really interesting. Form something really simple to tackle this problem. I have gotten into so many problems. Congratulations on at least having the courage to try such a system. 6:35 – Justin: When you have someone interacting with one of these applications, lose connectivity, is the service handling this behind the scenes? 6:56 – Peter: Yes.  Peter goes into detail. 7:19 – Justin: Neat. That would be interesting to dig more into that. 7:35 – Lucas: I had a friend who sent me links and I was like WHOAH. It’s not an easy task. 7:57 – Peter: Yes, offline – I am learning each and everyday. There are different ways to go about it. Then I go write something about conflict free of different types. I thought that was the way to go. I didn’t want it to be something of the declines. 8:50 – Lucas: How did React work for you? 9:24 – Peter answers the question. 9:58 – Panelist: I was trying to synchronize the system. There are 2 types: Operational Transformations and CRDTs. It’s a really hard problem. 10:35 – Lucas: Now we have multiple devices and they can be far away from each other. Updates to send to the same server. I think that this is really complicated world. Even consider new techniques that we use in RI. You have a long in process. You need to react to them. Maybe dates that you cannot get. Hard problem we are solving now. 11:56 –Justin: Even interacting with applications that ... it has made our products that aren’t approachable if someone doesn’t have a good Internet connection. Synchronizing connections while offline. So you can have offline support. These are problems that we can resolve hopefully. 13:01 – Lucas: It affects everyone. Back in Brazil we had problems with connections, because it’s connections. Now I live in NY but the subway my connection is hurt. 13:40 – Peter: Yes, I agree. Peter talks about his connections being an issue while living in Africa. 14:52 – Justin: How does that affect your development workflow? 15:08 – Peter answers the question. 17:23 – Justin: Shout-out to the Chrome team. Tool called LIGHTHOUSE. It can test for accessibility, SEOs and etc. Good same defaults and trying to test Mobile First. When I was learning about performance I wasn’t thinking about the types of devices that people would use. The edits tab really helps think about those things. 18:41 – Digital Ocean’s Advertisement 19:18 – Justin: Any tools to help test your download speeds or anything authentication tools? 19:36 – Peter answers this question. 20:15 – Panelist asks the same question to Lucas. 20:22 – Lucas: interesting question. Even though the website was doing pretty well we were in the dark. We did a huge migration and it wasn’t clear about the performance. So my first mission here was start using a tool called SPEED CURVE. It only gets better. For a company who needs to acquire a tool SPEED CURVE is great. They have the LIGHTHOUSE measurements in their dashboards. So it can follow through time your scores and all of your analysis. These are the tools we use today. They have both synthetic and real user monitoring. So when we are measuring things on our Chrome it is a picture of your machine (biased picture) they make it both synthetic and film your page and compare through time. Analyze your assets. Some code on your application and collects statistics for each user. Relic I have used before, too. I do believe those tools are of great help. I am sure there are opensource initiatives, but I haven’t played 22:56 – Peter: Have you tried...? 23:07 – Lucas continues. LIGHTHOUSE. 23:56 – Justin: It gives great visualizations for people to see. SPEED CURVE. Where we are at – so they can see that – it’s powerful. 24:40 – Lucas: Interesting story we used SPEED CURVE. Real users and synthetic measurements; our website was getting slower and slower. We couldn’t figure it out. What is happening to our application? It turned out that the app more people were using it on the mobile. The real user speed was going up because they were using mobile. The share of mobile users and performance was getting better. You look at the overall average it was getting slower. Interesting lesson on how to look at data, interpret data and insights. It was really interesting. 26:21 – Peter. 26:25 – Lucas continues the previous conversation from 24:40. 27:00 – Justin: Taking the conversation back. It’s always a challenging problem because the implications are hard to use. What was your experience with React Table? What are the pros and cons? 27:40 – Peter: React Table is quite light. It is pretty good on data. I haven’t had much of a problem. It is okay to use. The other ones I haven’t tried them, yet. 28:08 – Justin: Same question to Charles and to Lucas. 28:21 – Lucas: I have never worked with big tables to render the massive data or tables that need to be edits and stuff like that. I don’t have experience with those components. Play here and there. It is interesting, because it is one of those components that are fighting the platform and it’s a good source of interesting solutions. 29:05 – Chuck: Kendo UI has one. I need something that his more barebones. AG Grid. 30:03 – Justin: React Windows. It optimizes long lists. It just renders what is in the current window. 30:22 – Ryan Vaughn. 30:28 – Justin: Cool library. 30:36 – Lucas: Use it as a learning tool. How do you all decide when to actually start using a library? As early as you can? Libraries to solve our problems? 31:19 – Peter: It depends on what I am doing. 31:53 – Fascinating question. Not one size fits all. It’s a balance between product deliverable needs and... There can be risks involved. Fine balance. I find myself doing a lot is I will default using a library first. Library that isn’t too large but what I need for that project. If there is a hairy feature I will use the library until my needs are met.  33:49 – Lucas adds his comments. Lucas: You want to differentiate yourself. I love GitHub. 35:36 – Question to Charles: I know you have tons of stuff going on. What’s your thought process? 35:53 – Chuck: If I can find stuff on the shelf I will pay for it. My time adds up much more quickly then what the dollars do. I will pay for something off the shelf. I only mess around for a while but if I can’t find something to help me then I will go and build something of my own. I got close with Zapier, but I got to the point that I wanted to put something together that I built my own thing through Ruby on Rails. Generally I will pay for it. 37:07 – Panelist: Yes, I don’t think we all don’t value our time and how expensive time is. 37:25 – Chuck: I own the business. My time is of value – it’s more important to me. It’s a trap that people fall into not to value their time. 38:11 – Lucas: We are not all working on what we SHOULD be working on. This isn’t going to bring business Productive time that we are using with stuff that is not our business or our main focus. Focus on the core product. Try to get the customers to have a better life. The mission of the company. The web community that started that most is the Ruby community. Having solutions and focusing on the problem. I think that JavaScript is now doing a better job of this. As we know it’s easy to fall into this trap and play with building blocks. 39:52 – Chuck: I have had a few people remind me that I am a DEVELOPER! 40:19 – Justin: The thing I have estimating is the difficulty of something. I can build it because I am a developer. Is it valuable for me? 41:10 – Lucas: The sunken costs sink in – I have done all this work and now look where I am at? 41:33 – Chuck: Anything else? 41:43 – Peter: Check out me through Twitter and the Dev blog. Message me anytime. 42:13 – Chuck: Picks! 42:18 – Advertisement. Links: Kendo UI Ruby on Rails Angular Get A Coder Job Redux Agile Real-time editable data grid in React Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanguo’s LinkedIn Peter Mbanguo’s Dev.To Peter Mbanguo’s GitHub Peter Mbanguo’s WordPress Lucas Reis’ Email: lucasmreis@gmail.com Charles Max Wood’s Twitter Sponsors: Kendo UI Digital Ocean Get A Coder Job Picks: Charles Book: The ONE Thing Get A Coder Job – It will be out next week! T-Shirts & Mugs – Podcast Artwork - SWAG Kickstarter – Code Badge.Org Justin RC BLOG Podcast: Indie Hackers Indie Hackers Lucas Blog Post: Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Turtle Peter Library – Opensource Masters of Skill – Podcast Book: Ego is the Enemy Book