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We were very fortunate to have James "Bassy" Karagiozis from Between You & Me on the podcast to talk about their new EP, "SH!T YEAH". Enjoy! Between You & Me Socials: Twitter: https://twitter.com/BYAMAUS Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/byamaus/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BYAMAUS/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@byamaus YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@byamaus Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/artist/between-you-me/1125439959 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1P1y4wp6V0CwjhGcXPKgAu Website: https://www.byamaus.com/ Grab some GNP Merch!: https://goodnoisepodcast.creator-spring.com/ Check out the recording gear we use: https://www.amazon.com/shop/goodnoisepodcast Support the show on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/goodnoisepodcast Good Noise Podcast Socials: Twitter: https://twitter.com/good_noise_cast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/goodnoisepodcast/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/goodnoisepod Discord: https://discord.gg/nDAQKwT YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFHKPdUxxe1MaGNWoFtjoJA Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/04IMtdIrCIvbIr7g6ttZHi All other streaming platforms: https://linktr.ee/goodnoisepodcast Bandcamp: https://goodnoiserecords.bandcamp.com/

Episode 355 – Jake Wilson of Between You And Me is on the show today! We get into their career so far leading up to the new EP, their first independent release since parting ways with Hopeless Records. Catch them on tour in the US and Australia this year, and don't miss the new EP "SH!T YEAH" out April 5th! Shampoo sucks! It dries out and strips your hair of essential oils. I quit Shampoo and I now use products from Modern Mammals instead! You should too. Get 10% off at modernmammals.com/pages/lss when you use code LSS! How are those New Years Resolutions coming? FACTOR can help! With delicious and nutritious meals sent directly to your door and ready in just 2 mins, you'll be reaching your goals in no time. Get an amazing deal right now Visit FACTOR MEALS dot com slash lss50 and use code lss50 to get 50% off. NEED SOME GREAT NEW MUSIC!? Open Your Ears has you once again with the new split release from House & Home and Suntitle ! If you're a fan of 2000's Emo and 90's Punk Rock, you're going to love this. Head over to OYErecs.com for more info! It's out now wherever you stream your music! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to the Love Tidbits Podcast, where you'll discover a small, tasty, delightful, bite-sided tidbit of love - I'm your host, LeAnn Austin  Hey y'all, welcome to Love Tidbits, episode #44: Put Yourself in Their Shoes with Trish Meek  I love observing and connecting with other humans, especially noting how they fill and implement love into their lives. We have the amazing Trish sharing some beautiful love insights with us today. Alright Trish, briefly introduce yourself.  T: Well, my name is Trish Meek. I live in Georgia. I've also lived in South Dakota and Colorado.  I'm in my mid fifties.  I enjoy going to church and I love doing things for people, and I like to bake when I can. L: I love it, and I've been the recipient and seeing Trish doing lots of things for people, and I love that about her. Trish is filled with love, so thank you. Alright, so I'm going to ask you three questions. The first one is, how do you incorporate love into your business and/or your life?  T: Well, the questions that you gave me ahead of time so I could think about my answers, I found very difficult and thought provoking, and I really had to think about my answers because I really don't think about what I do, I just kind of do what I do. So my answer is, I try to put myself in other people's shoes. That way it helps me understand them better and so I can relate and connect with them on their level if I can.  And in return, it also helps me become a better person because I can only go by what I have experienced in my life. And there's so many other experiences out there that I haven't had the chance to experience, good or bad. And I think by trying to put their shoes on, you can find more compassion, more patience and empathy. So I think for me, that is really important. And honestly, that's something, wow, I forgot about that. A very long time ago I was having a conversation with the Lord and I had asked to try to help me with that actually.  I'd forgotten about that, but it has served me well. So that's my answer.  L: That's so beautiful. So served you well in trying to put yourself in other people's shoes.  T: Yeah, so it's been able, because whether you're homeless or famous, you know, we're all the same. You know, we're all the same people. And you know, I've never been famous and I thank God I haven't been homeless, but I could have the same conversations and get to know the beauty in their heart. And so, yeah, it has served me quite well, as in being able to relate with my fellow man. L: That's so beautiful, Trish, thank you. Alright, the second question, what is something you love about you and why?   T: This was the hardest one.  I finally learned how to truly forgive people who have hurt me, especially for painful things.  Because especially when it's like friends or family, you know, that you love and trust and put them on a pedestal.  Even though they're human, you know, you kind of forget that when you do that, just because you know, we do that with people you know, unintentionally. And when they disappoint you or hurt you, your feelings really get hurt because you don't realize, it's like, how could you do that to me? cuz I wouldn't do that to you. But because we're human. And it took me many years to totally learn how to forgive cuz you can forgive, but you're always harboring something. But once you can achieve that, your heart is, transformed for a better word. It's like you no longer have that pain or that irritation when you see that person. Or if it was something that they did that you see someone else do, it doesn't bring up those anger issues or that hurt issue that you might have. But there's a trick to that I found out that recently happened to me, cuz you get tested on that,   and for example, somebody hurt me again, same person, and I know it wasn't intentionally, but it was just like, okay, can I forgive them right away? You know, it's like, are all those feelings from the past, from another incident? Is that going to take and start on fire again? Thank God it didn't. You know, I'm very grateful for that. But, I found out that can be a multi-level learning lesson.  L: Absolutely. And what a superpower to be able to forgive others.  T: It is, but I meant it took me, probably a couple decades to learn how to really fully forgive, where you can truly love that person for the person that they are, and not remember the pain that they caused you, which can take a long time.   L: And was there some, like you said, some little trick or something that's helped you do that?  T: No, just not wanting to have that in my life because, when you thought of that person, you always had that, for lack of a better way, an irritation. And, I'm one of those people that my heart and my mind have to be in the same place, otherwise I'm not okay. And so I didn't like not having that, my heart and my mind not being at the same place with that, so it was something I had to work on with that particular person.  L: So it's more like being in alignment with yourself, and really the forgiving others is helping you.  T: Yeah. It totally helps you, because that person may or may not know they hurt you. And it did help me because then I'm at peace now. I'm at peace with that person and that's what I want because, you know, I love this person. It's just, you know, it's sometimes it's very hard to love someone when you're angry or hurt. And it's not a place I like to be.  L: Ah, that's beautiful. What an amazing superpower, Trish. That's great. Alright, so before I ask you the last question, anything else you'd like to share?   T: Just always try to love people. You know, I, some people are hard to love, but you know, I think if you take time to see where they're coming from, or look through their glasses, or their pain or hurt, I think it can help you love that person more. L: Yeah, and you've had some pretty tough experiences in your life and I think that's amazing how you still, you still choose love.  T: Yeah, because for me, that's the only way to be.  I mean, when I love someone, I love with my whole heart, you know, and how do you half love somebody? I mean, I don't understand that, you know, cuz isn't that, that's just not right. So it's either all or nothing when it comes to love for me, and it should be love for everyone, all the time.   L: You're all in on loving. Oh that's beautiful.  Alright, so what is your favorite quote about love?  T: Well, I found this in Guidepost. I used to get Guidepost, let's see, I told you I was in my mid fifties, so probably my late twenties, early thirties, I was reading Guidepost and I found this quote from Norman Vincent, and I'm probably trashing his last name, Peale. I don't know how to say the right name, so I'll spell it, p e a l e. I don't know how you say his last name.  Perfect.  Sorry Norman.  But I have made this my mission statement, pretty much since the day I read it, because it pretty much is who I want to be, and I try to strive on this at a daily basis in one small way or another, or bake.  But the quote is, "to be successful is to be helpful, caring, and constructive.  To make everything and everyone you touch a little bit better. The best thing you have to give is yourself."    L: Hmmm, something to think about y'all. Thank you Trish, for sharing. You're welcome. Thank you. Your tidbits of love. So beautiful. Thank you.  Have a good one y'all, and here's to love. If you would like to become an expert at Loving Yourself, check out my Lovin Me Program at leannaustin.com.

Episode Notes Trevor - Welcome back to Have You Heard. The podcast where we discuss underappreciated music from different genres, artists and eras. I'm your host, Trevor. In this episode, we're gonna be talking to Northwestern artist Jay Towns. Hope you enjoy. Jay - Cool. What's up, man?  T - What's going on? Thanks so much for hopping on.  J - Dude, thanks for having me, for real.  T - Yeah, I remember …  I'm a transfer, I'm new to Northwestern. So, I remember the first, like videos, when I was just applying and everything, you were the first one to pop up.  J - Appreciate it.  T - So it's cool to finally get to talk to you and stuff.   J - Yeah, you too. T - Going back to that sort of social media stuff … It seems like you have a lot going on, just all the time, so I wonder how you balance that with school and everything.  J - Well, the great thing about what I'm studying: theater, music tech and entrepreneurship – lots of the things that I am learning in classes I directly apply to stuff I do outside of class. Obviously, there's still school work that's kind of annoying to have to get done. But I'd say like 80% of the things that I'm learning in class, I apply to some project that I'm doing currently. To me, it doesn't feel so much as school, art, work. It kind of all blends together. Because I'd love to do my art for my job, which is what I'm studying. You know what I mean? It's not too bad, actually – the balance. Obviously, you know, with my own projects, like the YouTube channel and music and things that I'm not actively endorsed to do at school, that is what I use my extra time on. Actually, I feel like this is a perfect time to do this podcast episode, because I'm right now, in the midst of planning for a music video I'm shooting tomorrow – maybe we could talk about that later. But   the balance … I'm very used to it. But I think I think it's pretty, my schedule’s always kind of, like something’s moving. But that's the way I like it. And I think that Northwestern, for better or for worse, has kind of conditioned me with the “and” is in our DNA mindset, which can be toxic at times. But for me, most of the time, it's more of like an encouragement. I feel empowered to do not only whatever I want, but, whenever I want to do it. Oftentimes that coincides with other projects. And that's just kind of the lifestyle that I want to have. Starting it early, I guess. T - Yeah that’s so dope. I guess we could just jump into the music right now if you want. So do you direct your own music videos, and how much creative control do you have in that sort of process? J - So I do direct my own videos, but I've also … I have one video up on my channel right now, that was directed by a friend of mine. But even in that case, which was a great video, that was the “Green” music video that was directed by my friend Hannah because I had made that song to be featured in her film. So that was really cool. And she actually was editing the music video while she was editing the film. And so there are actually clips of the film, like intertwined with the music video pretty seamlessly. So that was dope. And in that case, she directed it because she definitely had the vision for the project. And it was also to serve for promo for the film. But other music videos I've directed, and I'm directing this next one that I'm doing. But even when I'm not, even when in the case of “Green,” I didn't ever feel like I didn't have creative control or creative input to say the least. I think, though, that the director usually is the person who is seeing how it's going to come together in the end product. And so, more frequently than not, the director is also going to edit a music video. And so in the case of  “Green,” I wasn't editing it because I didn't have the footage, so I felt like Hannah would have been more appropriate to bring that vision together – which she's very good at. For songs like “19,” which is another music video that's up on my channel, I had the whole idea in my mind. I just needed somebody to help me shoot it. And so in that case, I directed it because I also ended up editing that. So that's kind of how it goes with directing and creative liberties. T - Yeah and I wonder, how was it when you first started making music and putting stuff out? J - Dude, I was just thinking about this the other day. It is such a combination of kind of … you have to be kind of either like I don't know if it's like in love with your work or just kind of naive. And I mean the passion obviously has to be there. The passion, I think is the number one thing but like, because I look back – I was literally thinking about this yesterday – I am so proud of the music that I'm making currently. And like just the production value of it, I feel like I spend a lot of time on it and I feel like it just sounds professional. And it's strange to think about the music that I made, just like a year ago, that I'm still proud of writing-wise and inspiration-wise, because I'm like, “This definitely came from the heart.” This was something I wanted to get out as, like artistic expression, right? But I'm like, I would never listen to this just because I was so new at producing. Most of the tracks that I've released before like, just aren't at the caliber that my stuff is at now and that when I compare what I make to what I listened to, just isn't the same. And so I was thinking about that the other day, I was like, man, my friends really like … reposted that on their stories. And I'm like, I don't know, we were all just on the train of like, “Yo, this is artistic expression. And so that's what matters,” or if they were all secretly like, “Whoa, this is actually trash, but we support Jay.” And the funny thing is, I'll never have to know because that gave me the confidence to keep going. And now I feel like I am at the place where I really am putting up dukes with anybody who could be on the radio, you know what I mean? But it definitely took that confidence and that support group at the beginning to keep going, because I swear I almost could guarantee if people were like, “Stop making music,” when I had started, I probably would have stopped because it was a new thing for me. And I think that new artistic expression requires support to get going. T - And how were you learning in the beginning? Was it just through YouTube videos, just, you know, throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks? Or…  J - It was a combination of both, you know, I've been a musician, I would say for  the majority of my life, always musically in tune. But when it came to producing, that was a completely different thing. And something I was really excited about doing and never really had time to get into until quarantine hit and there was literally nothing else to do. It was a lot of YouTube. I always suggest when people ask, “How did you learn how to do that?” Just go on YouTube. I learned all the music theory I ever needed to learn on YouTube and more. That translated to me doing, like, AP music theory in high school and being very comfortable with music theory in college. Everything you ever would need to know is on YouTube. You don't need to take classes or anything.  And that was the same thing for producing. So I came into 2020 — I know, musically what I want in my head. But it was so frustrating getting to a computer. Having to figure out routing audio and quantizing MIDI tracks – just things that you don't think about when you're in artist mode. And that's kind of when I started going into producer stuff. And now I understand what it takes to get the idea from the head to the computer and out in the exported track. Which is a completely different skill. And so, yeah, that was really frustrating to work with at the beginning. But it was just, yeah, it was lots of trial and error. Lots of hours just sitting at my computer, hunched over my computer — just my computer crashing, like my laptop not, CPU not being able to work. My next investment probably has to be in another computer just because files are getting too big, et cetera. But anyway, I digress. Yeah, I learned almost everything I know how to do from YouTube. T - It seems like you're sort of able to translate what's in your head onto the DAW, how often are you making music? Is it as frustrating as it was before?  J - To answer the first half of the question. I'm making music consistently, but not frequently. So basically, I consistently, on a consistent basis, I will pour a whole day into a track, but I don't work a little bit every day. My schedule is not really conducive to like, I'm going to work for an hour on this song today. It's more so like I get in the grind. It's usually a Saturday or Sunday. And I sit down with tea at 10am and I'm there until like five. And then I have a song. I definitely have gotten a lot more efficient with my time. And I tend to work in blocks and chunks. And I feel like lots of artists tend to work this way. Producers, I feel like have more of the approach of like, I can whittle this down, day by day. But I feel like I'm more of an artist who learned how to produce out of necessity rather than like a producer who just loves to sit and work at my computer. I'm really hoping to get better at producing to the point where I can feel comfortable producing for other people. Like I'm also thinking about that as a possible route to go with my life. Don't really even know how that's gonna go. But so like, I make music consistently. Consistently, I'll do it about once a week for like hours at a time. And yeah, it's gotten a lot faster. It's just getting comfortable with the DAW. I use Studio One, which I think is amazing. I got it because it also allows me to compose music on there. If you have heard of Sibelius or like Finale, basically, there's like music transcription that is a part of it, which is for me as a composer, musical theater writer type stuff, that's also very useful. So kind of like two birds with one stone. And yeah, I mean, I got it Christmas of 2019, didn't use it until 2020 when everything stopped, and I've been using it ever since. And I love it. And the more you use it, I mean, every song that I've made so far, I have learned something that I wish I had put in every other song before.  T - And I love what you said about consistency, but not frequency. I think, you know, artists – when they're not making music or when they don't feel like making music what do they do to get in that zone? What’s that for you? J - Man, I mean, it's — this is so cheesy — but it's just like living life. It's because, and this is the same thing with acting too, which is something I'm also very passionate about. But when it comes to art, I feel like you need to have your experiences to then pour into your art. If I don't feel like making music, unless I'm commissioned to, like if I'm making it for something. But if it's just me, and I want to sit down and make a song and it's not coming, like, I don't think anything good comes from forcing that. I go out and I just live my life. I hang out with my roommates. I eat sushi. I occasionally freestyle to beats I find on YouTube in my car. I just live and then something happens that inspires me or makes me think of something or I hear a melody. A song I'm working on right now was inspired by — my next door neighbors play violin. And I just was walking out one day going to class and I just overheard this violin classical piece. And something about the melody just was really catchy. Quick on Voice Notes I just was like: Music notes I'll save that for later. That was something that I was able to build off of. You just never know where the next thing is gonna come from. And so I try not to force it. I think I'm naturally inclined to make something when I feel something so I don't really feel the need to, like, force that. It definitely comes when it needs to. I wouldn't call myself like a professional music artist like it's not my only thing. I don't feel that pressure to have to make something to make money. You know what I mean? I think for artists out there doing it, it's a different conversation. For me like, it's a very fun, very invested-in hobby, but still a hobby, so I don't I don't feel the pressure, you know. T - That's great. Honestly, I have a ton more questions, but I just want to make sure we get in your music video that you said you're filming tomorrow.  J - Oh, yes. Yeah, I appreciate you making time for that. I just feel like it would be a great opportunity to talk about while we're here. I am shooting a music video for a song called “Moves” that I made. It was one of those that was, I felt like a really good catchy idea that I ended up finishing it in like two weeks, and was like, “Okay, I'll totally make a music video for this one day.”And then I was selected to compete in Battle of the Bands for Mayfest to compete for a spot a set for Dillo. And they required a 20 minute set. So I was like, “Hmm, got this new song. Got this music video idea. Let's incorporate that.” So now, my plan is to incorporate this music video, another music video that I've been sitting on, and a Tiny Desk-esque kind of set for some stripped versions of some other songs that I've made to compile into one big Mayfest set.  So I'm very excited about the opportunity to put so much of the new stuff I've been sitting on out at the same time and debuting it for Battle of the Bands. I just think it would be a really great idea. So, I mean, I got this together super quick. I put out the first interest call — I think on Wednesday. Since then so many people have just reached out, volunteered to just be like, “Yeah, I'd love to be in it” or “Yeah, I'd love to help out with it.” And so it's always for me, when I see other people investing in my vision — half the people didn't even know what the song was called, or what the music video is going to be about. But they were like, “Jay Towns is making a music video, I'm down.”  That inspires me to make it something that is worth somebody else's time. It's so exciting to me. I can't believe something that I like walked outside, heard this melody, put it into a MIDI track, made a little beat, put some words on it. And now I'm about to meet a bunch of people I’d never met before tomorrow, and make this awesome thing that we can all share. We'll also be serving a purpose for like my set, like, that's dope.I love that process, I fall in love with that process. So that's what the music video is about for “Moves,” and I'm super excited for you to see it for other people to see it. And especially for people to feel like they're a part of it, the people who are going to show up work on it and be acting in it. So I'm very excited about that. T - Hope you enjoyed that episode. Thanks so much for listening. This is Trevor Duggins for NBN Audio. This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Join us this week as we pull back the loincloth on this classic tale of swindling and subservience. Learn why our big human brains make us susceptible to delusion, why children always say the darndest things, and how to make sustainable clothes! In the studio this week: psychology researcher Holly Blunden and fabrics enthusiast Stephanie Terwindt.Recorded by Sarah-Jayne Robinson and Tim Newport at CPAS Podcast Studio.Edited and transcribed by Tim Newport.Intro music sampled from "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/--TranscriptSJ: Many years ago, there was an Emperor so exceedingly fond of new clothes that he spent all his money on being well dressed.[Intro Music]S: Hi , everyone . My name's SJT: And my name is Tee.SJ: And we're Crumbs of science. And this week, if you couldn't tell, we're talking about the Hans Christian Andersen tale the Emperor's New Clothes. This is one that you've probably heard about before in school and it's really quite a simple tale, very easy to tell the morals in this one.T: There's no Disney version of the Emperor's New Clothes, although there is the Emperor's New Groove, which has similar morals?S: You've got an emperor who is not that nice .T: Yeah , quite vain . And he learns to -- I don't know if this one learns anything.S: He does! He's learned something at the end. The tale goes that the Emperor didn't care anything about caring for the kingdom or making sure that he was being a good ruler. The only thing he cared about was making sure that he had a good looking outfit on. They had a lovely saying, which was "The king's in council, the Emperor's in his dressing room.” He lived in a place where everything was good, so it's all right that he was a bit of a sucky ruler because life was going okay for them. One day there came to town two swindlers who said that they were weavers, and that they could weave the most magnificent fabrics imaginable. And there was something very special about these clothes: Not only were their colours and patterns uncommonly fine, but clothes made of this cloth had a wonderful way of becoming invisible to anyone who was unfit for his office or who was unusually stupid.T: “Those will be just the clothes for me,” thought the Emperor. “If I wore them, will be able to discover which men in my empire are unfit for their posts! And I could tell the wise man from the fools! Yes, I must certainly get some of the stuff woven for me right away.” So he forks over a large sum of money to start work immediately.S: And the swindlers, they've got him, hooked him in. They set up their looms, which is what they used to use in olden times to weave and they put nothing on there. They demanded all the exciting materials to make this cloth, so fine silk and gems, gold. But they put all that into their bags and still just set up on this empty loom. Clickity clack going ahead, weaving nothing, which really is a great deception, it seems.T: And so the emperor thought I'd like to know how those weavers are getting on with their cloth, but felt slightly uncomfortable because he remembered that those who were unfit for their position, would not be able to see the fabric. Now it couldn't be that he doubted himself. Yet he thought he'd rather send someone else to see how things were going. The whole town knew about the cloth's particular power now, and they're all impatient to find out how stupid their neighbours were.S: So the first person that the emperor decides to send is his minister because he thinks he's very smart, fit for his job. Minister turns up, can't see anything. But the swindlers, because seems like they were pretty good actors, described the cloth to him, saying it about the excellent pattern and the beautiful colours. However, this poor old minister still couldn't see anything, but he didn't want anyone to know that he was a fool, so he just pretended that he could see it. So he said, it's beautiful, it's enchanting, such a pattern, what colours! I'll be sure to tell the emperor how delighted I am with it.” The minister went back to the emperor and pretended that he saw the fabric, and described to him how amazing and wonderful it truly was.T: The swindlers, of course, merely asked for more money, more silk, more gold threads so they could make more of the clothes. But all of it went straight into their pockets--never a thread went onto the looms, though they worked their “weaving” (in scare quotes) as hard as ever. The emperor then thought I'll send another trustworthy official to see how it's going. That official? The same thing happened as to the minister: He looked and he looked, but as was nothing on the looms, he couldn't see anything. The swindlers went “Isn't it a beautiful piece of goods?” and they displayed and described their imaginary pattern, and this other official thought, “I'm not stupid, so it must be that I’m unworthy. Hmm, I mustn't let anyone know.” So he praised the material he didn't see, he said he was delighted, and to the emperor, he said: “It held me spellbound.”S: So finally the emperor decides that he's got to go see this cloth. So he goes along with a band of people--two of them the ministers who had already gone to see the fabric--and he couldn't see anything. He didn't want anyone to realise that he was unintelligent and unfit to be emperor, so he pretended that he could see it as well and said “Oh, it's very pretty. It has my highest approval.” The whole team he brought with him stared. But not wanting the emperor to think that they were foolish, they continued to compliment the clothes and say how wonderful they were. The emperor even gave the swindlers a cross to wear in their buttonhole and the title of “Sir Weaver.”T: All the Emperor's advisers advised him “You need to wear these amazing clothes in your procession that you were going to do tomorrow.” And so before the procession, the swindlers stayed up all night and burned more than six candles to show just how busy they were finishing the Emperor's New Clothes. They pretended to take the cloth off the loom. There had cuts in the air with huge scissors. And at last, they said, “Now the Emperor's New Clothes are ready for him.” Then the emperor himself came with his noblest nobleman and the swindlers raised up their arms is if they were holding something, saying “here are the trousers, here is the coat, here's the mantle. All of them are as light as a spider web, and one might always think that he had nothing on, but that's what makes them so fine.” “Exactly,” all the noblemen agreed, though they could see nothing, because there was nothing to see.S: So everyone complimented him. He assumed that he was ready, assumed that he looked fantastic, went outside and everyone who was to carry his long train behind him-- Because, of course, that was the height of fashion at the time--they reached down to the floor and pretended to pick it up. And so the emperor went off in his procession under his splendid canopy, and all of his subjects were in the streets and saying to each other, “Oh, how fine are the Emperor's New Clothes? “Don't they fit him to perfection? And see his long train?” Although no one could see anything, no one would admit this because they didn't want to be seen as unfit for their positions or a fool.T: But then the tiny voice of a child was heard through the clamour in the crowd, saying “But he hasn't got anything on.” “He hasn't got anything on?” “A child, says he hasn't got anything on!” “But he hasn't got anything on!” the whole town cried out at last, and the emperor shivered because he suspected they were right. But he thought “this procession has got to go on. So walked more proudly than ever, as all his nobleman held the train that wasn't there at all.S: A very simple tale of morals. I think of honesty, vanity, don't trust swindlers. So this is a Hans Christian Andersen tale, as we said it was first published on the seventh of April in 1837 was part of his third and final instalment of his Andersen's Fairy Tales Told for Children. The original version of this story was published in 1335 in the book “Libro de los ejemplos”, which is book of the examples by Count Lucanor or Juan Manuel, who was the Prince of Villena and this version of the story was “the king and the three impostors”, and it's very similar in terms of the king is presented with a cloth, but the people who can't see the cloth in that version are actually people who are off illegitimate birth so everyone says that they can see it, especially the king, because he doesn't want to think that he's a bastard and therefore would not be fit for his position. And at the time being of illegitimate birth was considered quite a controversy, So everyone pretends that they can see it until finally, it's not actually a child who steps forward, but it is a black person who at the time was considered to not have anything to lose by admitting that they couldn't see anything. And then suddenly the whole the same thing happens: The whole crowd swells, and everyone realises that the king is actually wearing no clothes. And Anderson didn't see this the original Spanish version, but he did see a German translation of it, which I had to Google. Translate this, because I do not speak any German, but the translation was “That's the Way of the World. When Andersen wrote it, he originally gave it a different ending: He originally had that the emperor's subjects just admired the clothes, and everyone in the town pretended to lie and continued on with it, and the manuscript was actually already at the printers when Andersen went up and said that he wanted to change the ending Historians think that there's a couple of reasons why he might have wanted to change it such as when Andersen himself met the King when he was a young child and he met King Frederick the sixth, and Andersen supposedly said afterwards “Oh he's nothing more than a human being.” There's also the idea that Andersen presented himself to the Danish bourgeoisie as a naive and precocious child, and the Emperor's New Clothes was his expose of the hypocrisy and snobbery that he found within the Danish bourgeoisie. There was also a lovely anecdote that said that after he had written this tale, the king then presented him with some gifts of rubies and diamonds. Because in the Emperor's New Clothes and another of Andersen's tales, the Swineherd, he actually voices a satirical disrespect for the court. So the king was trying to pay him off so that he stopped writing tales of political satire and instead wrote lovely storeys like The Ugly Duckling, which is actually one that he made up entirely by himself and didn't come from previous stories.T: What happens in the Emperor's New Clothes is basically an almost textbook case of mass hysteria. In this case, it's mainly motivated by trying to please the royals. Everyone's trying, to, you know, not get fired, which happens in workplaces a lot. But historically, there have been many cases off large groups of people, all behaving in a strange manner all at the same time. We've actually spoken about this on the podcast before we spoke about the dancing plagues of 1518 in StrasbourgS: in relation to , the pied piper of Hamlin .T: The main mechanism through which they work is still largely unknown. What happens is basically people transmit illusions of threats or rumours, and that influences the behaviour and especially in the small, tight-knit communities. This can happen quite fast. There's an example of this recording 1844 medical textbook, speaking about something that happened in sometime in the 1400s, where a nun in a French convent began meowing and all the other nuns also began meowing, eventually, all the other nuns began meowing together at the same time every day, and that this meowing and didn't stop until the police threatened to whip the nuns for disturbing the community. Other examples include one of most famous ones, The Salem Witch trials, which often gets carted out as the dangers of false accusation, dangers of isolationism and the dangers of mass hysteria. This resulted in the execution of 20 citizens accused of practising witchcraft. Going further forward in 1938 we had the Halifax slasher in the town of Halifax in England, two women who claim to be attacked by a mysterious man with a mallet and bright buckles on his shoes. And then further reports of a man wielding a knife and a razor came in, and the situation became so serious that Scotland Yard was called in to assist the Halifax police to catch this Halifax Slasher. But then one of the victims admitted that he'd actually inflicted the damage upon himself just for attention. Soon after that admission, other people came through, and eventually, they determined that none of the attacks has been real. But everyone in the town had been whipped into a furore because of this fear of this attacker.S: So we've been talking about the psychology of mass delusions, which are pretty relevant to the Emporer's New Clothes, and we decided to get on an expert. So we asked our friend Holly, who has an Honours in psychology and then has spent the last five years working in population health research. So thank you so much for coming on our show, Holly.Holly: Thank you for having me, it's lovely to be here.S: So we have a couple of questions for you in relation to the Emperor's New Clothes. Holly, how does mass delusion work?H: Such a cop-out way to start an answer, but that is a really good question. And I think that’s the-- sort of like group psychology and anything to do with this, sort of, thinking of lots of different individual people is something that's really interesting. I think these stories , like the Emperor's New Clothes, remind us of some of the really dark aspects of humanity and what it means to be ah, part of a species that's this intelligent but also this, sort of, social and so dependent on the impacts and the outcomes of these sort of social hierarchies and the way that we interact with one another. It's hard not to see parallels with those real-life examples when you talk about things like you know, the Heaven's Gate cult and things like that, where there are these otherwise sort of educated, functional members of society committed a mass suicide, in order to like ‘graduate’ --quote unquote-- from their human form and transcend their consciousness as an alien spaceship was passing by the Earth .S: So I haven't heard of the Heaven's Gate cult before. How many people was that they were part of that mass suicide?H: Well, it was actually 39 people who all at this one moment in time, it's very much that kind of Jonestown punch sort of approach, where there was this ‘Hale-Bop’ comet, I think it was called, that was like meant to be passing overhead at this specific time. And the members of this cult believed that they needed to sort of transcend their physical forms at the time that this comet was passing over the Earth in order to transcend, I suppose, and become one with this, like, greater existence. And like it's really interesting as well because as we talk about delusions, I think it's important to kind of differentiate between like like mass delusions and mass hysteria. And like, there's something else, that they called like mass psychogenic illness. So there have been these cases where otherwise healthy people have come down with these sort of like physical ailments of different kinds, so whether it's like twitching or fainting or weird physical behaviours, or like different types of pain and things like that, that could just spread through a community with no attributable physical cause. But a delusion is a bit different, it's more an idiosyncratic belief or impression that you maintain, despite contradicting evidence. This is a delusion because --and this is what made me think that we needed to sort of differentiate-- some of the members of this court were actually returning their telescopes, and things like that, because they bought telescopes to see this comet coming and its trajectory, couldn't find it, and so they've then returned their telescopes because they've rationalised this as the telescopes need to be faulty, because the comet is there. So it's the maintenance of that belief despite contradiction, sort of, evidence or reality.T: Are there any factors that lead to the sort of mass delusion? Like any common factors?H: I think this is one of the reasons that these sort of things are so interesting to people because there's a lot of debate about, like, what the possible reasons for this actually are, because obviously whether it's the psychogenic illness or the mass delusion, like, just the logistics of how this actually happens is really complex. Because you can sort of you can understand how one person's thinking can become, like, disordered or deluded, based on their experiences, or like mental illness… Brains are complicated, and if different things go wrong, like, we can see how that can manifest in lots of different ways. What's really hard to explain about these sort of mass delusions is how does how does a whole group of people go down this same idiosyncratic path of thinking? And how do they all sort of not respond to the evidence and things like that? So there's --I don't know if you've heard of it-- something called Folie à deux, which is like ‘dual madness,’ and so it's this idea, and it's often between people who are in, like, romantic partnerships, or like these very close, sort of like one on one relationships, where they will have these sort of shared dual kind of delusions. And there's this really quite an active debate as to whether this is a real concept, whether it's actually possible for two people to be deluded in the same way, or whether there's like one person who's like fully in the delusion and another person who either, like, sort of you wants to believe, or is kind of enabling those beliefs--T: --acquiescing to those beliefs.H: Acquiescing is a very interesting word choice, and I think I think there is a really core question there, which is is a mass delusion something that can exist? Or does it have to be something that's got a bit more to do with that acquiescence and that natural tendency for people to sort of want to fit into a group and have that sort of sense of place and social cohesion?S: We wanted to ask you about the psychology of acquiescence because from the sound of it, a bit more into acquiescing rather than [delusions].H: It's hard to really tease it apart because obviously like, you know, 39 people isn’t everyone in the world sort of thing. So there are limitations to how kind of compelling this sort of acquiescence or delusion can be. So I think, like, you could put forward a solid argument. Humans are really social species, and our societies often tend to gravitate towards hierarchies. In evolutionary psychology, there's an argument that we actually feel social rejection in a similar way that we would feel physical pain. So because of that, we go to great lengths to avoid feeling rejected by social groups. It is important to acknowledge that evolutionary psychology, while it gives us some really compelling kind of ideas, doesn't lend itself to the kind of falsifiable hypotheses that we do really love in a lot of science. So that's difficult one. But we do have a lot of-- there is a lot of research on acquiescence and how humans will respond in these kinds of social situations. And one really famous example is the “Ash Line” studies from the 1950s-- really straightforward, really powerful kind of social psychology experiments. So they put people in this kind of like classroom environment and, you you'd be like one participant in this class full of other people. The experiment was that, other than the one participant in the room, everyone else in the classroom was in on the experiment. And so they'd hold up two lines that were like, really, really obviously very different lengths. And every single other person in the classroom would be like, oh, they're the same. And so what they found --and I'm sure you know where I'm going with this-- is that most people would actually acquiesce and would be like yep, no, they're the same length, even like knowing that it's wrong. Like there's nothing ambiguous about this situation's very much, I think, comparable to that sort of Emperor's New Clothes situation. It's just being directly confronted with, like, just wrongness. And one of the things as well is that people often tend to have a bit of that, kind of, like self-doubt. So we often look to other people in our social group for answers when we're not sure of the situation. So in something like this you might start off pretty sure. But when everyone else is like convinced that these lines of the same length (or so you think) there's a natural kind of tendency to assume that maybe we've got something wrong and to sort of check yourself. And like often people will go with the group answer, especially if there's someone else that they perceive as like an authority or an expert in that group, because they'll second guess themselves. But they'll trust the group, and it sort of again, like, leads back to that whole, sort of, humans are pretty much useless on our own. But we have very good once we're in a society and we're all sort of working together. But that does come with some pretty interesting drawbacks, which I think you know. What's really highlighted by this Emperor's New Clothes story is that sometimes it's so damaging, and the consequences are so high, of violating these norms or disrupting these hierarchies that exist in the societies that we exist in, that it's easier to either just like acquiesce and agree with what's being said, or potentially to convince yourself that you are wrong and they're seeing something that you know you're just missing, because clearly you're an idiot, and everyone else can see that the lines are the same, that the Emperor is wearing fantastic clothes, and you must be the one who's like screwed something up. Unless you want to end up off on your own.S: so there is one person who in our story doesn't really fall into this power of acquiescing. And that is the child, who instead, even though everyone around him is saying that the Emperor's wearing his delightful suit, says no, he doesn't actually have anything on. So we thought that we would ask you about children and how they don't particularly fit into that power of acquiescing...H: Well, right off the bat, I think there's a definite truthiness to that, isn't it? I'm sure we've all been asked a question or heard a child ask a question every now and then, where we'll be like, hoo, you did not think about the effect it would have on that person to ask that question, did you? Well, first of all, it is pretty demonstrable that it takes a little while to become an adult. There's a lot of processes and brain development and things we need to learn, and neural pathways that need to be consolidated as a function of that learning.S: It takes until you're 25 before your brain is fully developed.H: Absolutely right. And so the last part of your brain to develop, because it sort of happens in stages, are your cortical areas, which are the outside bits that do all the human stuff. These are the sort of structures that have evolved later in development, but they also develop later in your life, so it tends to start from the back and move forward. So things like motor function and things like that will be refined a lot more quickly than some of these more complex social processes. So you see, you know, like a 12 year old or something, and physically in a lot of ways, like they could do most of the stuff that adults could do, especially if they practise a specific skill set and things like that. But emotionally, cognitively, there's still a lot more development to happen. So a lot of things obviously happen during puberty, a lot of emotional kind of attachment and regulation and reward systems and things like that. But this processing of, like, the sort of longer term, higher-order, more abstract connections and consequences of your actions is one of the last things to develop. So that's one of the ones that actually comes in right around that 25 mark, so kids don't have that same kind of like a reason to take pause and sort of consider, like, what are all the things that could happen. And, like biologically and experientially, I don't know about you, but I feel like a lot of people have a real crash course in social politics and hierarchies, and the potential unintended consequences of small things that people say when they go through high school. And by the time you come out of that, you sort of, you know, you're not prepared for a lot of situations that you’ll have at work, but you kind of get this mental map of like, these are the potential consequences that these actions can have.S: If someone turns up naked, you can't tell them that they're naked!H: It's not what people do! It's just it's not the done thing.S: Thank you so much for coming on and having a chat to us, Holly, We really appreciate it.H: Thank you for letting me!S: So the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes, It is about mass delusions, but I also think it's a lot about and I suppose the inventiveness of creativity of these tailors. And at the time, making a fabric that was invisible to some people but visible to others wasn't particularly possible, but nowadays we're almost on the verge of making it be able to make something like that happen. So we decided to speak to Stephanie Terwindt about her passion project, which is making clothes.[phone rings]S: Hi, how's it going?Stephanie: Yeah, not bad.S: Steph, I've known you for a number of years now, and you're a bit of talent at making your own costumes.ST: I am , although don't just do costume, so I also do daywear, and arts and crafts--bit of everything, really.S: And as someone who uses a lot of different fabrics, we thought we might talk to you about some of the current innovations in fabrics and how people make fabric. So I’ve just been doing a bit of research and there have been some amazing innovations. We've come very far from the original using flax fibres to dye clothes. Do you have a favourite fabric that you like working with?ST: Well, see this is a hard one. Because I have fabrics that I like to wear and that I like in clothing, but they're actually probably some of the most horrible fabrics to work with as a seamstress. So, for example, I really, really love chiffon as a fabric. It drapes beautifully. It looks glorious when you're making skirts or dresses and it just has a really nice wow factor. But it is so slippery and so hard. to pin together and to keep in place while you're sewing it, that it’s actually the worst and probably my most hated fabric to use in sewing, even though I love it as a garment.S: So usually worth it in the end, but while you're making it, sort of hating the whole thing.ST: Absolute agony.S: At the moment, personally, I'm trying when I'm looking for clothes, looking to buy clothes, I try and go for ones that are made sustainably, because the actual process of making fabrics can be really harmful to the environment. Do you have any knowledge of current sustainable methods of making clothes, and how that might differ from traditional methods?ST: Definitely. So I guess there's a couple of elements here, and if we think to really more traditional clothes in the modern sense, you're thinking of natural fibres like cotton or linen or silk. They aren't always produced in the most sustainable way, particularly a fibre like cotton. It's a highly water-intense crop to grow, and traditional cotton farming actually uses a lot of chemicals and pesticides in its production, so there's that whole element of producing the cotton. But there's also the aspect of how the fabrics are produced, once you have your thread elements, I guess you could say. So that's the more traditional side of things, and then you get into the synthetic world. Then we're into the area of, you know, single-use plastics almost, and your clothing can almost be regarded that way because as much as you use clothing over, you know, the period of a couple months or a couple of years, depending on your taste and your preferences, once a garment is used, it's very hard to recover those plastic fibres that have gone into making the polyester or lycra that is making up your garment. So there's a big issue around re-using the plastic fibres as well, what we are starting to see. There is a lot of businesses that are looking to alternative natural fibres, though. There's a fibre called TENCEL which was actually developed in Australia, which is made from eucalyptus tree pulp, I believe. And they used that to make the threads which they will then weave into the fabric. And it's a much more sustainable crop then something like cotton, while still being a natural fibre.S: What you're also saying is companies trying to reduce waste the way they make the garments.ST: Traditionally, when you are making garments, you have a large piece of fabric. You cut pattern pieces out of it, and you connect all the pattern pieces together to make your shirt or your dress or your pants. What some companies are doing is weaving fabric or knitting fabric specifically to the pattern pieces so that they don't have to cut the pattern out, and they also won't have any excess fabric as waste. So they're really able to cut to make all of their garments and also reduced the waste in the manufacturing process.S: So I know that people are also making fabrics from a lot of really, really you'd almost say bizarre things nowadays. So one of my favourite brands, Allbirds, which makes shoes from merino wool first. But then they've also started making shoes from tree fibres, and most recently, I think, from sugar plants, they started making flip flops, I think. There's also some companies that will make clothes out of plastic bottles.ST: Funnily enough, a friend of mine has started her own swimwear label, and all of the bikinis in her swimwear range are made of Lycra that is produced from recycled plastic like plastic bottles or fishing line stuff like that. And it's actually becoming increasingly common in particularly swimwear, I think is that connection to the ocean, and people are talking a lot about, you know, cleaning the oceans and removing the plastic from our oceans, and so they’re moved to take that plastic, repurpose it into fabric and then make swimwear out of it, which is fantastic.S: I realise that we can't predict what's gonna happen in the future. But if you were to try and predict what will happen in terms of fabrics, where could you see it going?ST: Ooh, this is a hard one! Because I think there's a lot of work that already underway or that people are already starting to test that I think in the very near future we’ll see and it will be a reality. So I think we're going to continue saying this push towards recycling fabrics I know that H&M has actually been testing recycling garment fabric, pulling apart old garments, re-using the threads from that and creating new fabric from scratch. So I think we're going to see more of that. We're going to see more reusing other natural fibre sources or plastic or whatever to create your fabrics. I think we're also going to start testing or playing with other ways of making fabrics there, not just weaving in a traditional sense, but 3D-printing or a mix of 3D-printing and weaving, and we are also starting to see that happen.S: Thanks so much for chatting to us about that, So the history of clothing is a very, very long one, and people have said that people have been wearing clothes for between 500,000 to 100,000 years ago, and of course, it's evolved a fair bit since then. About 30,000 years ago, people made needles, when people used to make fabrics, and this is how they would have done at the time of the Emperor's New Clothes. You would harvest and clean your fibre and wool, then you'd cart it and spin it into threads, weave the threads into the cloth and then finally fashion and sew the cloth into different clothes. And this sort of technology, people have said that you can find it from about 30,000 years ago, but it's pretty hard to find a lot of history about fabrics because , of course they rot. People have mainly guessed this based on the tools that they found and imprints that they found about things. Nowadays, there's actually-- I went down such a rabbit hole when I was looking at this, and Tee has seen the amount of pages of notes that I have. I found a whole bunch of odd things that I'd never would have suspected that you could use to make fabrics such as orange fibre, which is this company in Italy who's trying to find a way to use the 700,000 tonnes of orange peel discarded yearly in order to create juice. And they make a material similar to viscose blended with silk and cotton and, if you know anything about brand name Salvatore Ferragamo, who makes beautiful, amazing high-end clothes, actually used this fabric to create a capsule collection. There are also companies making bioplastics from potato waste, which is this company Chip[s] Board, which makes a fabric Parblex, and they are working with the potato company McCain's in order to use their potato waste from their wedges and, so on, all their other potato products. And the company has a zero-waste production system because even the offcuts of their material production is incorporated back into the system. There are legitimately so many weird ones out there. I found ones using grape marc to make leathers to make vegan leathers. There are lots and lots of different types of ones, you can make them from pineapple skin. There are hemp fibres --now have turned out to be a very fantastic material because they're antibacterial, durable, resilient. However, there are a few problems with using hemp fibres because the growth is often limited, as people are a little bit worried about that whole connection to cannabis. There are clothes made out of coffee ground fibres, so just think the next time you have your coffee that the grounds could also actually be used by a Taiwanese company to turn into a different type of yarn. And that company, Singtex, is working with Starbucks to take the coffee grounds and use them to make fabrics. Banana fibres, lotus fibres is a super high tech one, and also supposedly makes really high-end ones. And then there's even just new companies that are making different types of fabric, like Stone Island, which is working with reflective glass microbeads and temperature-sensitive outerwear.S: So we've come a pretty long way since the Emperor's time, and though we might not have invisible fabric just yet, there are some really cool options,S: Alright, so hopefully you've learned a little bit about the Emperor's New Clothes. How to avoid being caught up in a mass delusion. And also if anyone tells you that the fabric you're wearing looks fantastic, but you can't see it, do not trust them because it is most likely that they are lying.T: This is actually the final episode of Crumbs of Science. We hope you've much fun listening to this is we have had recording it, and we just like to thank the ANU Centre for the Public awareness of Science for the use of the recording facilities, we’d like to thank Will Grant for getting us set up in the space.S: To all our guests that came along and gave interviews and answered such bizarre questions.T: We hope we didn't get anyone fired. Yeah, that's it from Crumbs of science.S: If you have any questions in the future, please feel free to email us at crumbsofscience@gmail.com.T: Until next time we hope you have--T&S: a happily ever after.[Outro music]

SH!T YEAH!  On today's episode I talk about how arguing can be a waste of my time, and that listening to understand can help avoid arguments.  Arguing is all about perspective, and if we can understand someone's perspective we can be better served.  I discuss an Indian parable about elephants and how it relates to this, talk about "idiots" (said it at least 5 times), and talk my trash. Thanks for tuning in! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/kingcrump/message

Welcome to Sesh Cast, a cannabis podcast for cannabis sessions. Today we talk with Tweedledoob! This is the first interview to air on Sesh Cast and with firsts comes some unforeseen issues. This time it's some low quality audio. Because of that, I'm putting a full transcript of the interview in the notes here! Without further ado: here's the thing!   GLDLX: Alright guys so welcome back to Sesh Cast. My name is GLDLX and today I am sitting down with someone you may just know from Instagram, you may just know from the cannabis related internet, Tweedledoob how are you? Tweedledoob: I'm awesome thanks for having me on. G: Yeah of course thanks for taking some time to sit down with me I really appreciate it! T: Yeah no problem. G: So for anyone who may not have heard of you before or may not really know who you are, can you give me a brief run down on what you're about and how you gained traction in the cannabis community? T: For sure. So mostly I do cannabis photography and social media promotion kind of stuff. I've had my Instagram going for just over three years now; I started it while I was working at a cannabis lounge during university. So in Toronto there are these amazing places you can go, you just bring your own weed, pay five bucks and just hang out basically. So I kind of like supervised stoners for like four and a half years and that kind of really got me in to the industry. [I made] a lot of connections and kind of figured out that I don't know exactly what I want to do, but the cannabis space is definitely the place for me. So it kind of gave me some direction and then my Instagram I just kind of started for fun. I never expected that it would turn in to my full time gig but yeah I mean pretty crazy. G: So you said a couple words that, I'm based out of America and I think a lot of people also based out of America  may have no earthly idea what you just said. So a cannabis lounge! That's something cool that we definitely don't have a lot of here. Can you explain a little bit more about what it was like to babysit stoners for four years? T: For sure it was amazing. It's a really fascinating place I think people have this idea of who stoners are but when you open up a space like that you see that it really, it's really hard to define. So like everyone from 18 to 80, if you don't have a place to consume cannabis at home, or people don't know that you consume cannabis or whatever the case may be, it's kind of just a safe space where you can go and use your cannabis. So in Toronto here currently its actually not fully legal or regulated but there have been lounges in the city for about 20 years now. So it's when you walk in they all kind of have their own vibe but its essentially like a cafe or a bar type of feeling, but there's no alcohol, no tobacco just cannabis. G: Man that's super cool. So how many of these would you say there are in Toronto like how popular is that? T: Right now I think there are five in the city. There have been other ones over the years that have kind of come and gone, but there's, yeah I think there's five right now. G: Cool very cool. It looks like you've got a joint rolled up. I have one too so I'm going to take a second to spark up so yeah we'll put it on pause for a second cheers! So you were smoking on something I'd never heard of, what was that? T: It's called honey rock. I've never heard of it either to be honest, this is my first puff we're just testing it out. What are you smoking? G: I have I think the very end of my gdp. I just picked up yesterday and I got gorilla glue #4 and jack herer so this is the end of my very last buy from almost a month ago when I stalked up for 420. So the other thing that you said that I think is very foreign to anybody here in America is just the use of the word university. So for anybody who doesn't know that's going to college because that's not a phrase that we use here in a America, but one thing that I think is really interesting is that in your Instagram bio you have your majors from your college experience which means it must've been somewhat important to you and is still somewhat important to you. So can you talk to me a little about that? T: For sure interesting question, so  yeah it is kind of an easy way to just tell a little bit about myself in the bio. I feel like people coming to your page don't really, we make judgments so quickly, right, on Instagram it's like you go to someone's new page five seconds later you're like 'nope not for me' right, so I thought kind of putting that in my bio kind of tells a little bit more about me than my first few pictures or whatever you might see and if people are interested in philosophy or Buddhist philosophy they might take another second to stick around. I also think it's something that's kind of different. There's really not that many people studying philosophy or Buddhist philosophy these days so yeah just a point of differentiation I guess. G: Yeah and I think philosophy is really interesting because the more that you end up as a stoner the more in to open thought and philosophizing you become. So how has your interest in philosophy and specifically Buddhist philosophy carried over into your experiences in the cannabis community or how has your cannabis experience meshed with the way you've studied or experienced philosophy or Buddhist philosophy? T: So to the first part of that question, while I was going to university I was spending a lot of time studying in vapor lounges and places where people just naturally end up having philosophical conversations. Even though they may not have the formal academic language to talk about it I think these things, people get high and think about big ideas very often so I think just spending time in those places around people who are open to having interesting conversations or talking about things they don't understand really helped me develop my thought process and the ability to take an academic idea and be able to talk about it with people who don't have that same kind of formal education. Not to say that they don't have valid opinions or ideas it's just, yeah, philosophy and Buddhist philosophy, these ideas aren't things that we really talk about all the time in our daily lives but I think some people are quite interested in it so it's an interesting cross over  I think. G: Yeah did you ever meet anybody in a lounge that really hit you in a way that you'd never thought about something or sort of turned something around on you that made you think you were possibly sitting down with another modern day stoned philosopher ? T: You know the first thing that came to mind, the first person that popped in to my head, I had a few people come in when I was working at the lounge who had been having conversations, philosophical type conversations with friends and were kind of at a lost point and didn't know like you can really think yourself in to a corner sometimes in philosophy which is why I think people tend to avoid it or avoid big ideas that they don't understand. If there's no clear answer sometimes its better just not to think about it right? So I've gotten in to some very interesting discussions where people are coming at from a very personal way and are just trying to work through like [other] concepts and its definitely changed my perspective on some things where you can have kind of what, you know, what you read in a book, but when somebody challenges you with their own ideas you have to really be able to like work through a concept and not just go by what the book says. I don't know if that makes sense. G: Yeah that makes total sense T: Personal philosophical conversations with people at lounges, which I think is like one of my favorite things. G: That's awesome. Is that something that still happens now even though you don't work at a lounge? T: Maybe not so much, but I get some interesting dms I'll tell you. G: Really? T: I mean of all sorts. Not to many philosophical conversations, not regularly, but people definitely, I don't know what it is but people message me about their personal problems or their big questions they have in their lives that they're feeling lost or whatever. I don't know what it is, but I guess people feel like they can relate to me or that I may have some kind of, some kind of perspective on whatever issue they're having. So I do get in to intense conversations with strangers in my dms now. G: Interesting that's super cool and I think that that kind of bleeds back into the way you have become a cannabis influencer on Instagram. Actually I was reading your blog a little bit earlier, if anyone is interested in following up a little bit more with Tweedledoob you can find a lot more stuff at Tweedledoob.com off Instagram, and I was reading your blog a little bit earlier and one of the things I saw that you talked about was going from just being in the cannabis space and being a cannabis photographer, to actually starting your Instagram to actually putting yourself on your Instagram as a person as opposed to just your photography and your content from the cannabis space. So how has the transition been, for anyone who is listening who is interested in being a digital influencer of some sort or wants to know a little bit more about what it's like to be a digital influencer or a digital content creator. How have you sort of swung your life and what sort of changes have you come in to and experiences have you come into by becoming a digital influencer with a face and a persona online as opposed to just a handle and some photos? T: Yeah great question. It's been about two years since I started putting more of myself online and it was a big deal kind of for me. For the first year I had Instagram I felt super weird about it. I felt like I'm not Tweedledoob, like Tweedledoob is like my Instagram account and just my photos and I was really hesitant to put more of myself out there for a variety of reasons. And really the content creation and like influencer thing didn't really come until I was starting to put myself out there more and I think part of the reason why is because like even just kind of straight up looking as peoples accounts as accounts you don't think of them as real people a lot of the time. If you don't know what [someone looks like]you have a certain appreciation for it but you think of it like an account right? But that's like somebody that just like wakes up and eats and sleeps and does [everyday] things right? So I think my kind of traction started to come when I started to put my, let my life on there. And so part of that was because I was working at the lounge at the time so I had an [interesting new] day to day experience even though it was my kind of like 9-5. I was just like going to work and smoking weed and I think that kind of fascinated a certain group of people, but I think what the main thing that's kind of given me the most amount of traction and it came from putting more of myself out there is the connections with other people other people in the cannabis space other photographers you know you can learn more skills you can really connect with people human to human when you're actually putting yourself in the line, putting more of your personality. And I think a huge part of that was video as well. Videos I think really changed the way you can interact with other people online yeah I don't know let me think about that. G: Yeah I think that's really interesting. You become in such an interesting situation when you start to put yourself on line as opposed to just your content to a point where you become your own content and I think that once you hit that point of becoming your own content it's a really interesting ship to navigate, or excuse me a really interesting sea to navigate. Of how much of myself do I put online, what sort of online persona do I have, who have I become to people that they want me to keep up with? T: That part I'm not so in to. That for me, the stuff that I put out I have to feel totally comfortable putting video out or putting content out that I know this wide variety of people will see like all of my family and my boyfriend's family will see it including like grandparents right all the way down to like friends and strangers and like fifty percent of my audience is outside of north America like people that don't even speak the same language as me. So I think if I tried to cater [to] these certain groups I think it would get really confusing and overwhelming and so I have to just like be myself enough and feel comfortable and confident to just like a hundred percent be me to all these groups of  people. I'm ok with them seeing it because it's me it's not like I'm trying to be this one thing for somebody or trying to like get likes from this one certain group. I just kind of have to be me and that's the only way I can be comfortable doing videos or putting myself out there. G: And that's such a cool way to look at things and I think almost an old school way of being a content creator. I know that were of the age where the birth of YouTube is something I remember very well I don't know how interested in YouTube or anything you are. But I remember when YouTube went from just a place that there were videos on the internet to something you could make as a career T: Totally G: and back at the very beginning it seemed like people were just putting things out that they wanted to put out. And today it seems so analytically based and so fit in to the algorithm and that's true with Instagram as well. Like how can I do everything I can to make sure the most people see what I want [them to] see and it almost warps your content in to something you don't really want to create. So I think it's really interesting and super commendable to hear someone say 'I want to put out stuff that I'm super comfortable with and something that isn't catered to get clicks from a certain group of people' so that's really cool and I really appreciate  that! T: Thanks man yeah same. Great question too it really got me thinking too. It's taken a lot to come to that really, like I wouldn't have been able to give you that answer a year ago. Or it's, this whole thing is just so quickly evolving. Even just Instagram, like the algorithm change earlier this year has totally changed the way that I'm using Instagram and the features and how I'm using them it's just this constantly evolving thing. So yeah it kind of makes it interesting or sort of challenging to navigate but yeah that said I think in one way I almost have to go back on something I said, I was thinking while you were talking, I can't say that I a hundred percent don't think of what people want to see or don't think of. I do have this like, there's kind of a separation between the things that I post about my life and about myself and like I am still creating content for myself and for other people and in creating content it like, you're right, do you know Gary Vee? G: The name is very familiar, but could you tell me who it is? T: Yeah he's kind of hard to describe. He's like a business mogul. Like he's kind of like really gotten popular in the last three years through his social media stuff and he's really, he gives a lot of business advice. He's kind of like motivational speakerish, he's got a podcast, he's kind of everywhere right now. But one of the things he was talking about over the last year kind of social media wise is the difference between creating and documenting. So a lot of people are like just on the content creation side of things and it's like you can have a very curated account and its very like almost clinical like for a business or whatever. Like you see some people like that too where they only have like super ultra posed photos of themselves and you don't really know who that person is ya know? It's just this image they've kind of created of themselves and the other side of that what Gary Vee has talked a lot about and sort of the upside of doing this is just straight documenting. Like people do want to see kind of behind the scenes and get to know who you really are I don't know why really but humans, we're so fascinated with each other and other peoples stories and that's almost the easier content to create, just like documenting your life. But like I'm trying to kind of have a balance between the two. I don't want to exclusively do one or the other so in content creation I kind of do, this is why I started talking about this, I kind of do try to cater to like what the stoners like or like what's the popular thing and what's the aesthetic that might get more traction. So in that kind of sense I am, like I do think more about that. But then on the documenting side I try to be like as authentic as possible and not really thinking about what people want to see if that makes sense? G: Yeah absolutely and that's again really interesting I think because it's almost the difference between putting out super curated, curated might be the wrong word, but super targeted and insincere content, versus putting out quality, yes this is targeted to what will perform well but I'm not putting it out there because it is what will perform well, I'm putting it out because it's the best performing version of what I want to post if I'm understanding you correctly. T: Yes that's exactly it G: So how much, I guess for people who aren't familiar with you and your career and your photography, how much of your full time career or part time career exists on Instagram and digitally? T: A very large part of it and increasingly so. I stopped working at vape on the lake last July, at the vapor lounge, the cannabis lounge. So it's been almost a year since I've been doing full time free lance. At the beginning of that it was, I was doing a lot more photography than the social media stuff. So I do photography for some of the local cannabis brands, so I do product photography and also event photography, and over the last year I've really kind of shifted towards documenting and doing more Instagram and I started my website and my retail stuff. I [have] kind of been focusing on building out a brand and not just being focused on being photographer. It's an important skill and it's a part of what I do and I think it always will be, but like I kind of realized there's like more, I think there's more of an opportunity for me to do more than market myself as just a photographer. But it's my full time it's my life. G: Yeah absolutely. Let's talk then a little bit about the photography side. Because I see cannabis photography on the internet and that's about the extent that I know of it is like 'wow that's weed and that weed looks super pretty.' So tell me a little bit about what that space is like and how it is being a cannabis photographer in a world that is very quickly turning its eyes more and more on to cannabis? T: Yeah for sure it's definitely a really interesting time and even the fact that a cannabis photographer is like a thing is really cool. For myself, I've really just been getting more serious about photography for about three years, so there's a lot of people in the industry who have a long standing career in photography and are just getting in to cannabis now, where as I feel like I still have a lot to learn photography wise but I have the cannabis thing down. I mean Instagram and social media are such a [huge open space] and so in one way you don't really have to be a professional photographer or professional cannabis photographer to get your cannabis photography online. If you have weed and have a camera you can kind of just get out there. So it's kind of an equal playing field in one sense where it's pretty open but it's really interesting because the internet is, there's people from everywhere consuming my content but the rules are different everywhere so what is legal for me not be legal for other people. Yeah I think that there's still a lot of [changes] to be had for the cannabis industry. Right now Canada is coming in to a legal recreational market across the country [relatively soon] so there will be some like, ya know, really official, legal, on-the-book cannabis photography for the first time like ever which is pretty cool. G: Yeah so I think its super interesting to hear you bring up the 'what might be legal for you might not be legal for everyone or somewhere else.' Something that we've talked about a lot on this podcast and that's really influenced not only me and my experience as a content creator, but for a lot of my friends and my followers as well, is the way that YouTube has removed a lot of cannabis related accounts in the last couple months. I don't know how much of that you're aware of? T: Yeah I mean almost every day on Instagram for a while I was seeing people saying like huge accounts are getting taken down. Like Coral Reefer she's been on YouTube for like nine years and all of her content just got taken down. It's pretty crazy. G: So what is it like working under that stress of 'what I'm doing is completely legal but somewhere else it might not be legal' and what has it been like working not only under that stress and that restraint, but seeing some of this other cannabis content face those repercussions and be removed. How has that experience been particularly for you? T: I guess this has to be prefaced with like, that I am a legal patient and it kind of gives me the confidence to just kind of do my own thing. So personally I don't feel like, I don't have that fear, the legitimate real life fear that a lot of people have as far as like posting content or whatever, whether its legal or illegal. But I mean yeah I think as far as we've come we have a long way to go right? I feel like federal changes in the US might be the one thing which actually makes YouTube or Instagram really; but I think YouTube has just recently come out and said that they're not, sorry it was Instagram, Instagram's community guidelines used to say that the promotion and sales of drugs were like, that was just something you couldn't do, but now apparently its more just to do with sales, the direct promotions of sales, but just like promotion of cannabis apparently they're not going to be like, if you're a medical patient just doing your thing and you're not actually promoting drug sales you couldn't lose your, [they won't] delete your account. I don't know why YouTube, I'm curious to know what YouTube's thing is, to see why they're just starting to [be] so hard on all of these cannabis accounts. Even like legal accounts that are just like educational got taken down. I think we just have more fighting to do right? Like cannabis is becoming more mainstream and there are so many changes happening all the time that it kind of feels like we're making progress but I don't think for lots of [folks] from the other side, when there's other people who are like[staunchly] against it, those people are going to have something to say and try to like make sure potheads don't take over. There are people who have vested interest in not having cannabis be legal and we still have some fighting to do for sure. G: Yeah that's really interesting and also super good to hear, that there's still a real confidence in being able to promote what is legal where you are, because I think one of the biggest things that the cannabis industry as a whole, and not even just the industry but people who smoke regularly need as a whole, are people to advocate for the normalcy of cannabis. And for people to really put out and prove that there's nothing about smoking weed that makes you lazy or a distress to society or anything like that. There are careers, there's an industry, there are functioning people and very motivated and driven people in the community, and without the confidence to post content that you've created that you feel good about and that is legal, without that confidence it's a real detriment to I think the community. So that's really positive and uplifting to hear as well. T: There are so many driven and motivated and very productive members of society that support cannabis to varying degrees, so I think over the next five years or so like that kind of image of cannabis user is going to become more prevalent. Because there are still so many people with an old school mentality that aren't really willing to see or change their perspectives, but it's happening. In Canada we're definitely seeing it with legalization coming this year. There's stories about cannabis in the news like on the main news channels, literally almost every day so it's coming. It's coming. G: To sort of wrap here, if people are interested in finding you, or learning more about you, or following more of your content and your life, where are the best places for them to go to find you? T: My main thing is for sure Instagram, you can find me @Tweedledoob. I also have a website tweedledoob.com. So I have like, I'll go to an event and take hundreds of pictures and then I might post one or two on Instagram, so I felt like I needed a place to post more of my photos. I have a bunch of albums on my website of different events and different places I've been, and I've also got my shop so, I don't know if you've seen my jolly joint image it's like a happy little joint. Have you seen that? G: Yeah, its great I love it! T: Yeah I've got all the merch on there and I'm going to be adding a bunch of new things in my shop really soon which I'm really excited about. Some stuff, some new art that's not Tweedledoob branded but my friend Champ Stiles is going to be making some cool, like he's a wood burner and he like does wood carving and wood burning things, so I'm going to have some weedy stuff of his on my site soon. And yeah I would say those are, through my website you can also email me Tweedledoob@gmail.com but there is a form on my site if anybody wants to reach out I'm always happy to chat.

Full Transcript:Katie: So, what does it mean to spend a lifetime with people?Tim: There's a great metaphor from C.S. Lewis in his book “The Four Loves,” where he talks about the difference between approach and nearness, and he talks about this in the context of faith and being close to God. But I think it applies, the way he describes it he says,“I want you to imagine that you're on a path, and your path ends at a village, and the village has a warm bath and a cup of tea and all your friends are there, and there is a fire and you're in the mountains and you're on this path and it's cold and it's rainy and your coming to this cliff, and you're at the top of the cliff, and below you you can see the village where you are going, the baths and the tea and the friends. It's waiting for you. But there is no way to get to it, you're near it, you can see it, you can smell the smoke from the fire. But you can't fly and you can't climb down the cliff. The only way to get there is a five-mile loop that goes around the whole valley, and actually every step you take for a while is going to get you further from the village, but interestingly enough you're approaching your goal more than you were when you were near it.”The question really is about what's the goal. And what it means to get there. When I think about what does it mean, especially in our work in Starfire, to help people grow towards each other, it means more than just being near. The path is actually the thing we have to keep going along. We have to travel that. And time matters there it might take longer, it will take longer. We can't actually get closer unless we spend a lot of time together. Isn't that a great metaphor?K: It is.T: Its really helpful to meK: Yeah. Why do people have a hard time committing to a long-haul?T: Well I'm really interested these days in what happens if we don't have to commit to it but we just continue travel together. Because, time is just really interested in that, if we go 30 years in the future, and we say we've been best friends, or we've been married, or we've been great neighbors. We'd look back and say, what kinds of things did we do to keep that alive. It was things like forgive each other, and grow separately but come back together, and bring new people in to introduce and celebrate together. We'd have to do all these things that probably require us to be uncomfortable. But when we are in the future looking back, its easy to say: “Oh yeah that's how it happened,” but it's hard for us to see it that way. That's why time matters so much, is that it's the passing of time that allows all of that stuff to happen.K: Sometimes more time does not equal quality time. So with Starfire we have actually started working less with people, we spend less time with people. And we out in more quality during the week more than maybe we did with the day program days.T: It was just a way we thought about peoples lives and our purpose. Our whole purpose was to almost fill time, and now it is to invest it in that future story, that future goal. We have just come to understand that the time that we have with people with disabilities is sacred. It represents their life. And we spend a few hours a week building that life. A connected, vibrant, life with lots of friends who care about me.K: So you're saying that the goal you have in mind can determine the way you spend your time. And the goal that we have is different than keeping people safe and happy now it's a full rich life.T: Yeah, its some what of an understanding, and it's something to own up to. We didn't actually imagine the same kind of lives for people with disabilities than that we imagined for ourselves. And somehow we imagined that their purpose was a very finite, you know, existence. That was very much in the present of managing them or just keeping them safe and happy. When we started to say “oh we've been thinking about this all wrong. Each of these people have a unique purpose.” Then we had to, one come to terms how we assumed very little was possible for them. And once when we did that, we had to commit ourselves to what was possible. Then we had to understand that's generally looks like a connected, included, participatory future. But, again its unique and wild for each person. So we had to design our services in a way that use time to get there. When we started to think about what that looks like, it takes a lifetime to build a life so we had to figure out how to invest our time and partnership with people in a sacred way that lead to that future. And allow the space for surprise and new relationships and affection to percolate.K: So that's that three hours that we spend a week instead of the four days.T: Yup. So instead of four days its three hours of invested time, and the week in between actually really matters, because we become new over that week and the story becomes a little deeper. Week by week it gets deeper and deeper. Its approaches that vision of the future. It approaches that forty to fifty-year story. You can only chip away at that a step at a time, or a day at a time week at a time, you can't knock it all out in a week or a month. It just doesn't work like that.

Shownotes: -How on earth do upload a podcast. -Steve went on a Cruise -We try and be cultural and talk about Bon Iver new album This is his one of his song titles: 10 d E A T h b R E a s T ⚄ ⚄ (Yeah)