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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. Show references:  Anna Preedy, Director M+H Showhttps://show.museumsandheritage.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/annapreedy/Jon Horsfield, CRO at Centegra, a Cinchio Solutions Partnerhttps://cinchio.com/uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-horsfield-957b3a4/Dom Jones, CEO, Mary Rose Trust https://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/dominic-jonesPaul Woolf, Trustee at Mary Rose Trusthttps://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-woolf/Stephen Spencer, Ambience Director, Stephen Spencer + Associateshttps://www.stephenspencerassociates.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/customerexperiencespecialist/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/stephen-spencerSarah Bagg, Founder, ReWork Consultinghttps://reworkconsulting.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahbagg/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/sarah-baggJeremy Mitchell, Chair of Petersfield Museum and Art Galleryhttps://www.petersfieldmuseum.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-mitchell-frsa-4529b95/Rachel Kuhn, Associate Director, BOP Consultinghttps://www.bop.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kuhnrachel/  Transcriptions:Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. You join me today, out and about yet again. This time I am in London at Olympia for the Museums and Heritage Show. Hotly anticipated event in everybody's diary. We all look forward to it. Two days of talks and exhibitions and workshops. Just a whole lot of networking and fun. And of course, we've got the M and H awards as well. So in this episode, I am going to be joined by a number of different people from across the sector, museum and cultural institution professionals, we've got some consultants, we've got some suppliers to the industry, all pretty much giving us their take on what they've seen, what they're doing and what their thoughts are for the year ahead. So, without further ado, let's meet our first guest. Andy Povey: Hi, Anna. Welcome to Skip the Queue. Thank you for giving us some of your time on what must be a massively busy day for you. I wonder if you could just tell the audience who you are, what you do, a little bit about what museums and heritage is, because not everyone listening to the podcast comes from the museum sector. Anna Preedy: Andy, thanks. This is a great opportunity and always really lovely to see your happy smiley face at the Museums and Heritage Show. So M and H, as we're often referred to as, stands for Museums and Heritage and we're a small business that organises the principal trade exhibition for the Museums and Heritage sector that could be broadened, I suppose, into the cultural sector. We also have the awards ceremony for the sector and an online magazine. So we are Museums and Heritage, but we're often referred to as M and H and we've been around for a very long time, 30 plus years. Andy Povey: Oh, my word. Anna Preedy: I know. Andy Povey: And what's your role within the organisation? Your badge says Event Director today. That's one of many hats. Anna Preedy: I'm sure it is one of many hats because we're a very small team. So I own and manage the events, if you like. M and H is my baby. I've been doing it for a very long time. I feel like I'm truly immersed in the world of museums and heritage and would like to think that as a result of that, I kind of understand and appreciate some of the issues and then bring everyone together to actually get in the same room and to talk them through at the show. So, yeah, that's what we're about, really. Andy Povey: In a shorthand and obviously the show. We're in the middle of West London. It's a beautifully sunny day here at Olympia. The show is the culmination, I suppose of 12 months of work. So what actually goes in? What does a normal day look like for you on any month other than May? Anna Preedy: Yeah, it was funny actually. Sometimes people, I think, well, what do you do for the rest of the year? You just turn up to London for a couple of days, just turn up delivering an event like this. And also our award scheme is literally three, six, five days of the year job. So the moment we leave Olympia in London, we're already planning the next event. So it really is all encompassing. So I get involved in a lot. As I say, we're a small team, so I'm the person that tends to do most of the programming for the show. So we have 70 free talks. Everything at the show is free to attend, is free to visit. So we have an extensive programme of talks. We have about 170 exhibitors. Anna Preedy: So I'm, although I have a sales team for that, I'm managing them and looking after that and working with some of those exhibitors and then I'm very much involved in our awards. So the Museums and Heritage Awards look to celebrate and reward the very best in our sector and shine the spotlight on that not just in the UK but around the world. So we have a judging panel and I coordinate that. So pretty much every decision, I mean you look at the colour of the carpet, that which incidentally is bright pink, you look at the colour of the carpet here, who made the decision what colour it would be in the aisles this year it was me. So I, you know, I do get heavily involved in all the nitty gritty as well as the biggest strategic decisions. Andy Povey: Fantastic. Here on the show floor today it is really busy, there are an awful lot of people there. So this is all testament to everything that you've done to make this the success that it is. I'm sure that every exhibitor is going to walk away with maybe not a full order book, but definitely a fistful of business cards. Anna Preedy: I think that's it, what we really want. And we sort of build this event as the big catch up and we do that for a reason. And that is really to kind of give two days of the year people put those in their diary. It's a space where people can come together. So you know, there'll be people here standing on stands who obviously and understandably want to promote their product or service and are looking to generate new business. And then our visitors are looking for those services and enjoying the talks and everyone comes together and it's an opportunity to learn and network and connect and to do business in the broadest possible sense. Really. Andy Povey: No, I think that the line, the big catch up really sums the show up for me. I've been. I think I worked out on the way in this morning. It's the 15th time I've been to the show. It's one of my favourite in the year because it is a fantastic mix of the curatorial, the commercial, everything that goes into running a successful museum or heritage venue. Anna Preedy: I mean, it's funny when people ask me to summarise. I mean, for a start, it's quite difficult. You know, really, it should be museums, galleries, heritage, visitor, attractions, culture. You know, it is a very diverse sector and if you think about everything that goes into making a museum or a gallery or a historic house function, operate, engage, it's as diverse as the organisational types are themselves and we try and bring all of that together. So, you know, whether you are the person that's responsible for generating income in your organisation, and perhaps that might be retail or it might be catering, it could be any. Any stream of income generation, there's going to be content for you here just as much as there's going to be content for you here. Anna Preedy: If you are head of exhibitions or if you are perhaps wearing the marketing hat and actually your job is, you know, communications or audience development, we try and represent the sector in its broadest scope. So there is something for everyone, quite. Andy Povey: Literally, and that's apparent just from looking on the show floor. So with all of your experience in the museum sector, and I suppose you get to see. See quite an awful lot of new stuff, new products. So what are you anticipating happening in the next sort of 6 to 12 months in our sector? Anna Preedy: I mean, that's a big question because, you know, going back to what were just saying, and the kind of different verticals, if you like, that sit within the sector, but I think the obvious one probably has to be AI, and the influence of that. I'm not saying that's going to change everything overnight. It won't, but it's. You can see the ripples already and you can see that reflected out here on the exhibition floor with exhibitors, and you can also see it in our programme. So this sort of AI is only, you know, one aspect of, you know, the bigger, wider digital story. But I just think it's probably more about the sector evolving than it is about, you know, grand sweeping changes in any one direction. Anna Preedy: But the other thing to say, of course, is that as funding gets more the sort of the economic landscape, you know, is tough. Undeniably so. So generating revenue and finding new ways to do that and prioritising it within your organisation, but not at the expense of everything else that's done. And it should never be at the expense of everything else that's done. And it's perfectly possible to do both. Nobody's suggesting that it's easy, nothing's easy but, you know, it's possible. Anna Preedy: And I think the show here, and also what we do online in terms of, you know, news and features, all of that, and what other organisations are doing in this sector, of course, and the partners we work with, but I think just helping kind of bridge that gap really, and to provide solutions and to provide inspiration and actually, you know, there's no need to reinvent the wheel constantly. Actually, I think it was somebody that worked in the sector. I'm reluctant to names, but there was somebody I remember once saying, well, know, stealing with glee is kind of, you know, and I think actually, you know, if you see somebody else is doing something great and actually we see that in our wards, you know, that's the whole point. Let's shine a spotlight on good work. Well, that might inspire someone else. Anna Preedy: It's not about ripping something off and it's not absolute replication. But actually, you know, scalable changes in your organisation that may have been inspired by somebody else's is only a good thing as well. Andy Povey: It's all that evolutionary process, isn't it? So, great experience. Thank you on behalf of everybody that's come to the show today. Anna Preedy: Well, thank you very much. I love doing it, I really genuinely do and there is nothing like the buzz of a busy event. Jon Horsfield: Yeah, My name is Jon Horsfield, I'm the Chief Revenue Officer of Cincio Solutions. Andy Povey: And what does Cincio do? Jon Horsfield: We provide F and B technology, so kiosks, point of sale payments, kitchen systems, inventory, self checkout to the museums, heritage zoos, aquariums and hospitality industries. Andy Povey: Oh, fantastic. So I understand this is your first time here at the Museums and Heritage Show. Jon Horsfield: It is our first time. It's been an interesting learning curve. Andy Povey: Tell me more. Jon Horsfield: Well, our background is very much within the hospitality. We've been operating for about 20 to 23 years within the sort of high street hospitality side of things. Some of our London based listeners may have heard of Leon Restaurants or Coco Di Mama, we've been working with them for over 20 years. But we're looking at ways of bringing that high street technology into other industries and other Verticals and the museums and heritage is a vertical that we've identified as somewhere that could probably do with coming into the 21st century with some of the technology solutions available. Andy Povey: I hear what you're saying. So what do you think of the show? What are your first impressions? Give me your top three tips. Learning points. Jon Horsfield: Firstly, this industry takes a long time to get to know people. It seems to be long lead times. That's the first learning that we've had. Our traditional industry in hospitality, people will buy in this industry. It's going to take some time and we're happy about that. We understand that. So for us, this is about learning about know about how the industry works. Everybody's really friendly. Andy Povey: We try. Yeah. Jon Horsfield: That's one of the first things that we found out with this. This industry is everybody is really friendly and that's quite nice. Even some of our competitors, we're having nice conversations with people. Everybody is really lovely. The third point is the fact that I didn't know that there were so many niche markets and I found out where my mother buys her scarves and Christmas presents from. So it's been really interesting seeing the different types of things that people are looking for. We've sort of noticed that it's really about preservation. That's one of the main areas. There's a lot of things about preservation. Another one is about the display, how things are being displayed, and lots of innovative ways of doing that. But also the bit that we're really interested in is the commercialization. Jon Horsfield: There's a real push within the industry to start to commercialise things and bring in more revenue from the same people. Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's all about securing the destiny so that you're not reliant on funding from external parties or government and you taking that control. So what do you do at Centrio that helps? Jon Horsfield: Well, first of all. First of all, I would say the efficiencies that we can bring with back office systems integrations. We're very well aware of what we do, we're also aware of what we don't do. So, for example, we're not a ticketing provider, we're a specialist retail and F and B supplier. So it's about building those relationships and actually integrating. We've got a lot of integrations available and we're very open to that. So that's the first thing. But one of the key things that we're trying to bring to this industry is the way that you can use technology to increase revenue. So the kiosks that we've got here, it's proven that you'll get a minimum average transaction value increase of 10 to 15%. Andy Povey: And what do you put that down to? Jon Horsfield: The ability to upsell. Okay, with kiosks, as long as, if you put, for example, with a burger, if you just have a nice little button, say would you like the bacon fries with that? It's an extra few pounds. Well, actually if you've got an extra few pounds on every single transaction, that makes an incredible difference to the bottom line. From the same number of customers. Some of our clients over in the USA have seen an ATV increase above to 60% with the use of kiosks. Andy Povey: And that's just through selling additional fries. Jon Horsfield: Exactly. People will. I went to a talk many years ago when people started to adopt kiosks and the traditional thing is the fact that people will order two Big Macs and a fries to a kiosk, but when you go face to face, they will not order two Big Macs and a fries. Andy Povey: So you're saying I'm a shy fatty who's basically. Jon Horsfield: Absolutely not. Absolutely not, Andy. Absolutely not. So that's really what it's about. It's about using the sort of the high street technology and applying that to a different industry and trying to bring everybody along with us. Dominic Jones: And you need to listen to the Skip the Queue. It's the best podcast series ever. It'll give you this industry. Paul Marden: Perfect. That was a lovely little sound bite. Dom, welcome. Dominic Jones: It's the truth. It's the truth. I love Skip the Queue. Paul Marden: Welcome back to Skip the Queue. Paul, welcome. For your first time, let's just start with a quick introduction. Dom, tell everybody about yourself. Dominic Jones: So I'm Dominic Jones, I'm the chief executive of the Mary Rose Trust and I'm probably one of Skip the Queue's biggest fans. Paul Marden: I love it. And biggest stars. Dominic Jones: Well, I don't know. At one point I was number one. Paul Marden: And Paul, what about yourself? What's your world? Paul Woolf: Well, I'm Paul Woolf, I've just joined the Mary Rose as a trustee. Dom's been kind of hunting me down politely for a little bit of time. When he found out that I left the King's Theatre, he was very kind and said, right, you know, now you've got time on your hands, you know, would you come over and help? So yeah, so my role is to support Dom and to just help zhuzh things up a bit, which is kind of what I do and just bring some new insights into the business and to develop It a bit. And look at the brand, which is where my skills. Dominic Jones: Paul is underselling himself. He is incredible. And the Mary Rose Trust is amazing. You haven't visited. You should visit. We're in Portsmouth Historic Dock blog. But what's great about it is it's about attracting great people. I'm a trustee, so I'm a trustee for good whites. I'm a trustee for pomp in the community. I know you're a trustee for kids in museums. I love your posts and the fact that you come visit us, but it's about getting the right team and the right people and Paul has single handedly made such a difference to performance art in the country, but also in Portsmouth and before that had a massive career in the entertainment. So we're getting a talent. It's like getting a Premiership player. And we got Paul Woolf so I am delighted. Dominic Jones: And we brought him here to the Museum Heritage show to say this is our industry because we want him to get sucked into it because he is going to be incredible. You honestly, you'll have a whole episode on him one day. Paul Marden: And this is the place to come, isn't it? Such a buzz about the place. Paul Woolf: I've gone red. I've gone red. Embarrassed. Paul Marden: So have you seen some talks already? What's been impressive for you so far, Paul? Paul Woolf: Well, we did actually with the first talk we were listening to was all about touring and reducing your environmental impact on touring, which is quite interesting. And what I said there was that, you know, as time gone by and we had this a little bit at theatre actually. But if you want to go for grant funding today, the first question on the grant funding form, almost the first question after the company name and how much money you want is environmental impact. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Paul Woolf: And so if you're going tour and we're looking now, you know, one of the things that Dom and I have been talking about is, you know, Mary Rose is brilliant. It's fantastic. You know, it's great. It's in the dockyard in Portsmouth and you know, so. And, and the Andes, New York, you know, everywhere. Dominic Jones: Take her on tour. Paul Woolf: Why isn't it on tour? Yeah. Now I know there are issues around on tour. You know, we've got the collections team going. Yeah, don't touch. But nonetheless it was interesting listening to that because obviously you've got to. Now you can't do that. You can't just put in a lorry, send it off and. And so I thought that was quite interesting. Dominic Jones: Two, it's all the industry coming together. It's not about status. You can come here as a student or as a CEO and you're all welcome. In fact, I introduced Kelly from Rubber Cheese, your company, into Andy Povey and now you guys have a business together. And I introduced them here in this spot outside the men's toilets at Museum and Heritage. Paul Woolf: Which is where we're standing, by the way. Everybody, we're outside the toilet. Dominic Jones: It's the networking, it's the talks. And we're about to see Bernard from ALVA in a minute, who'll be brilliant. Paul Marden: Yes. Dominic Jones: But all of these talks inspire you and then the conversations and just seeing you Andy today, I'm so delighted. And Skip the Queue. He's going from strength to strength. I love the new format. I love how you're taking it on tour. You need to bring it to the May Rose next. Right. Paul Marden: I think we might be coming sometimes soon for a conference near you. Dominic Jones: What? The Association of Independent Museums? Paul Marden: You might be doing an AIM conference with you. Dominic Jones: Excellent. Paul Marden: Look, guys, it's been lovely to talk to you. Enjoy the rest of your day here at M and H. Paul Marden: Stephen, welcome back to Skip the Queue. Stephen Spencer: Thank you very much. Paul Marden: For listeners, remind them what you do. Stephen Spencer: So I'm Stephen Spencer. My company, Stephen Spencer Associates, we call ourselves the Ambience Architects because we try to help every organisation gain deeper insight into the visitor experience as it's actually experienced by the visitor. I know it sounds a crazy idea, really, to achieve better impact and engagement from visitors and then ultimately better sustainability in all senses for the organisation. Paul Marden: For listeners, the Ambience Lounge here at M and H is absolutely rammed at the moment. Stephen Spencer: I'm trying to get in myself. Paul Marden: I know, it's amazing. So what are you hoping for this networking lounge? Stephen Spencer: Well, what we're aiming to do is create a space for quality conversations, for people to meet friends and contacts old and new, to discover new technologies, new ideas or just really to come and have a sounding board. So we're offering free one to one advice clinic. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Stephen Spencer: Across a whole range of aspects of the visitor journey, from core mission to revenue generation and storytelling. Because I think, you know, one of the things we see most powerfully being exploited by the successful organisations is that kind of narrative thread that runs through the whole thing. What am I about? Why is that important? Why should you support me? How do I deliver that and more of it in every interaction? Paul Marden: So you're Having those sorts of conversations here with people on a one to one basis. Stephen Spencer: Then we also are hosting the structured networking event. So all of the sector support organisations that are here, they have scheduled networking events when really people can just come and meet their peers and swap experiences and again find new people to lean on and be part of an enriched network. Paul Marden: Absolutely. So we are only half a day in, not even quite half a day into a two day programme. So it's very early to say, but exciting conversations, things are going in the direction that you hoped for. Stephen Spencer: Yes, I think, I mean, we know that the sector is really challenged at the moment, really, the fact that we're in now such a crazy world of total constant disruption and uncertainty. But equally we offer something that is reassuring, that is enriching, it's life enhancing. We just need to find better ways to, to do that and reach audiences and reach new audiences and just keep them coming back. And the conversations that I've heard so far have been very much around that. So it's very exciting. Paul Marden: Excellent. One of themes of this episode that we'll be talking to lots of people about is a little bit of crystal ball gazing. You're right, the world is a hugely, massively disrupted place at the moment. But what do you see the next six or 12 months looking like and then what does it look like for the sector in maybe a five year time horizon? Stephen Spencer: Okay, well, you don't ask easy questions. So I think there will be a bit of a kind of shaking down in what we understand to be the right uses of digital technology, AI. I think we see all the mistakes that were made with social media and what it's literally done to the world. And whilst there are always examples of, let's say, museums using social media very cleverly and intelligently, we know that's against the backdrop of a lot of negativity and harm. So why would we want to repeat that, for example, with generative AI? Paul Marden: Indeed. Stephen Spencer: So I heard a talk about two years ago at the VAT conference about using AI to help the visitor to do the stuff that is difficult for them to do. In other words, to help them build an itinerary that is right for them. And I think until everyone is doing that, then they should be very wary of stepping off the carpet to try and do other things with it. Meanwhile, whilst it's an immersive experience, it is not just sitting in, you know, with all respect to those that do this, A, you know, surround sound visual box, it is actually what it's always been, which is meeting real people in authentic spaces and places, you know, using all the senses to tell stories. So I think we will need to see. Stephen Spencer: I've just been given a great coffee because that's the other thing we're offering in the coffee. It's good coffee. Not saying you can't get anywhere else in the show, just saying it's good here. Yeah. I think just some realism and common sense creeping into what we really should be using these technologies for and not leaving our visitors behind. I mean, for example, you know, a huge amount of the natural audience for the cultural sector. You know, people might not want to hear it, but we all know it's true. It's older people. And they aren't necessarily wanting to have to become digital natives to consume culture. So we shouldn't just say, you know, basically, unless you'll download our app, unless you'll do everything online, you're just going to be left behind. That's crazy. It doesn't make good business sense and it's not right. Stephen Spencer: So I just think some common sense and some. Maybe some regulation that will happen around uses of AI that might help and also, you know, around digital harms and just getting back to some basics. I was talking to a very old colleague earlier today who had just come back from a family holiday to Disney World, and he said, you know, you can't beat it, you cannot beat it. For that is immersive. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. But it's not sealed in a box. Stephen Spencer: No, no. And it really. It's a bit like Selfridges. I always took out. My favourite store is Selfridges. It still does what Harry Gordon Selfridge set out to do. He said, "Excite the mind and the hand will reach for the pocket." I always say. He didn't say excite the eye, he said, excite the mind. Paul Marden: Yeah. Stephen Spencer: The way you do that is through all the senses. Paul Marden: Amazing. Stephen Spencer: And so, you know, digital. I'm sure he'd be embracing that. He would be saying, what about the rest of it? Paul Marden: How do you add the human touch to that? Yeah. I was at Big Pit last week. Stephen Spencer: As they reopened, to see this. Yeah. Paul Marden: And it was such an amazing experience walking through that gift shop. They have so subtly brought the museum into the gift shop and blended the two really well. Stephen Spencer: Yes. And I think that raises the bar. And again, if you want to make more money as a museum, you need to be embracing that kind of approach, because if you just carry on doing what you've always done, your revenue will go down. Paul Marden: Yes. Stephen Spencer: And we all know your revenue needs to go up because other. Other sources of income will be going down. Paul Marden: Sarah, welcome back to Skip the Queue last time you were here, there was a much better looking presenter than, you were in the Kelly era. Sarah Bagg: Yes, we were. Paul Marden: It's almost as if there was a demarcation line before Kelly and after Kelly. Why don't you just introduce yourself for me? Tell the listeners what it is that you do. Sarah Bagg: So I'm Sarah Bagg. I'm the founder of Rework Consulting. The last time I spoke, it wasn't that long after our launch. I think like two and a half years ago. We've just had our third birthday. Paul Marden: Wow. Sarah Bagg: Which is completely incredible. When we first launched rework, were specifically for the visitor attractions industry and focused on ticketing. Paul Marden: Yep. Sarah Bagg: So obviously we are a tech ticketing consultancy business. In the last three and a half years we've grown and now have five verticals. So attractions are one of them. Paul Marden: And who else do you work with then? Sarah Bagg: So the art, the leisure industry. So whether it be activity centres, cinemas, bowling centres and then live entertainment. So it could be anything from sports, festivals etc and the arts, like theatres or. Paul Marden: So closely aligned to your attractions. Then things that people go and do but different kinds of things loosely. Sarah Bagg: Say they're like live entertainment. Paul Marden: I like that. That's a nice description. So this must be Mecca for you to have all of these people brought together telling amazing stories. Sarah Bagg: I think how I would sum up museum and heritage today is that I think we're kind of going through a period of like being transformed, almost like back. People are reconstructing, connecting with real experiences and with people. Paul Marden: Yeah. Sarah Bagg: And I would like to think that tech is invisible and they're just to support the experience. I think there's a lot of things that are going on at the moment around, you know, bit nostalgia and people dragging themselves back to the 90s. And there's a lot of conversations about people and customer service and experience. And although technology plays a huge part in that, I would still like to think that people come first and foremost, always slightly weird from a technology consultant. Paul Marden: Well, nobody goes to a visitor attraction to be there on their own and interact with technology. That's not the point of being there. Yeah. Interesting talks that you've been today. Sarah Bagg: I think one of my favourite was actually one of the first of the day, which was about. Of how do you enhance the visitor experience through either like music and your emotions and really tapping into how you feel through, like all your different senses. Which was one of Stephen's talks which I really enjoyed. Paul Marden: That's really interesting. Sarah Bagg: I think if people like look at the visitor industry and across the board, that's why I'm so keen to stay, like across four different sectors, we can learn so much pulling ideas from like hospitality and restaurants and bars.Paul Marden: Completely. Sarah Bagg: Even if you think about like your best, there's a new bar there, so you can not very far from my home in Brighton and the service is an amazing. And the design of the space really caters for whether you're in there with 10 people or whether you're sat at the bar on your own. It doesn't exclude people, depending on what age you are or why you gone into the bar. And I think we can learn a lot in the visitor attractions industry because there's been a lot of talk about families today. I don't have children and I think that there, you need. Sarah Bagg: We need to think more about actually that lots of other people go to visitor attractions Paul Marden: Completely. Sarah Bagg: And they don't necessarily take children and they might want to go on their own. Yes, but what are we doing to cater for all of those people? There's nothing. Paul Marden: How do you make them feel welcome? How do you make them feel like they're a first class guest? The same as everybody else. Yeah. So where do you see the sector going over the next few years based on what you've seen today? Sarah Bagg: I think there'll be a lot more diversification between sectors. There's definitely a trend where people have got their assets. You know, like if you're looking at things like safari parks and zoos, places that have already got accommodation, but maybe like stately houses where there used to be workers that were living in those cottages or whatever, that they're sweating their assets. I think it would be interesting to see where tech takes us with that because there has been a tradition in the past that if you've got like, if your number one priority to sell is being like your hotel, then you would have like a PMS solution. But if it's the other way around, your number one priority is the attraction or the venue and you happen to have some accommodation, then how is that connecting to your online journey? Sarah Bagg: Because the last thing you want is like somebody having to do two separate transactions. Paul Marden: Oh, completely drives me crazy. Sarah Bagg: One thing I would also love to see is attractions thinking beyond their 10 till 6 opening hours completely. Because some days, like restaurants, I've seen it, you know, maybe they now close on Mondays and Tuesdays so they can give their staff a day off and they have different opening hours. Why are attractions still fixated in like keeping these standard opening hours? Because actually you might attract a completely different audience. There used to be a bit of a trend for like doing museum late. So I was speaking to a museum not very long ago about, you know, do they do like morning tours, like behind the scenes, kind of before it even opens. And I think the museum particularly said to me, like, "Oh, we're fine as we are.". Paul Marden: I've never met a museum that feels fine where it is at the moment. Sarah Bagg: But I guess the one thing I would love to see if I could sprinkle my fairy dus. Paul Marden: Come the revolution and you're in charge. Sarah Bagg: And it's not like, it's not even like rocket science, it's more investment into training and staff because the people that work in our industry are like the gold, you know, it's not tech, it's not pretty set works, it's not like fancy display cases. Yes, the artefacts and stuff are amazing. Paul Marden: But the stories, the people stuff. Yeah. Sarah Bagg: Give them empowerment and training and make the customer feel special. Paul Marden: Yes. Sarah Bagg: When you leave, like you've had that experience, you're only ever going to get that from through the people that you interact with completely. Paul Marden: Jeremy, hello. Welcome to Skip the Queue. We are, we are being slightly distracted by a dinosaur walking behind us. Such is life at M and H show. Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah. Paul Marden: So. Jeremy Mitchell: Well, anything to do with museums and dinosaurs, always great crowd pleasers. Paul Marden: Exactly, exactly. So is this your first time at M and H or have you been before? Jeremy Mitchell: Been before, but probably not for 10 years or more. It was, yes. I remember last time I came the theatres were enclosed so they were partitioned all the way around. Paul Marden: Right. Jeremy Mitchell: But because it's so popular now that would not just not would not work. It's a long time ago. It shows how long I've been volunteering. Paul Marden: In museums, doesn't it? So for our listeners, Jeremy, just introduce yourself and tell everyone about the role that you've got at the Petersfield Museum. Jeremy Mitchell: Okay, so I'm Jeremy Mitchell. I'm a trustee at Petersfield Museum now Petersfield Museum and Art Gallery. I'm actually now chair of trustees. Paul Marden: Paint a little picture for us of Petersfield Museum then. What could someone expect if they came to you? Apart from, as I understand, a very good cup of coffee. Jeremy Mitchell: A very good cup of coffee. Best in Petersfield. And that's not bad when there are 32 competitors. You'll get a little bit of everything you'll get a bit of. You'll get the story of Petersfield, but you'll get so much more. We've got collections of costume going back to the mid 18th century. We've got work of a local artist, Flora Torte, one of those forgotten female artists from between the wars. She's a story that we will be exploring. We've got, in partnership with the Edward Thomas Fellowship, a big archive of books and other artefacts by and about Edward Thomas, who was a poet, writer, literary critic. He's one of the poets killed in the First World War. But he's not well known as a war poet because he was writing about the impact of war on life at home. Jeremy Mitchell: So he's now more well known as a nature poet. Paul Marden: So you're telling the story not just of the place, you're telling the story of the people that have produced great art or had an impact on Petersfield. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. And their networks and how they might relate to Petersfield in turn. And we've got the costume collection I mentioned going back to the mid 18th century, which came from Bedale School. They've all got stories to them. Paul Marden: Interesting. Jeremy Mitchell: This came from Bedale School, which is a private school on the edge of Petersfield. It was actually collected by their drama teacher between the 1950s and the 1970s. Paul Marden: Wow. Jeremy Mitchell: Because she believed in authenticity. So if she was putting on a 19th century production, she would want genuine 19th century clothes. Paul Marden: Let me tell you, my drama productions in a 1980s comprehensive did not include authentic 19th century costumes. Jeremy Mitchell: If were doing something like that at school, their parents would have been, all right, go down to the jumble sale, buy some material, make something that looks something like it. Paul Marden: Yeah. Jeremy Mitchell: But no, she was, well, if you haven't got anything in your attic that's suitable, please send me some money because there's a sale at Sotheby's in three months. Time off costume from the period. Paul Marden: Excellent. Jeremy Mitchell: And we've got some lovely pieces in there. When we put on the Peggy Guggenheim exhibition, which is what were talking about earlier today here, were able to bring in costume from the 1930s, Chanel dress, other high quality, not. Not necessarily worn by Peggy Guggenheim, but her. Paul Marden: Authentic of the period. Jeremy Mitchell: Authentic of the period. But her son was at Bedale, so she could have been asked to donate. Paul Marden: So. Okay. Jeremy Mitchell: Highly unlikely, but it was similar to items that she had been photographed in or would have been. Would have been wearing. Paul Marden: So tell me about the. The presentation. How was that? Jeremy Mitchell: It went so quickly. Paul Marden: Oh, yes. You get in the zone don't you? Jeremy Mitchell: You get in the zone. But it flowed and Louise was great. Louise had done the bulk of the. The work. She prepared the presentation that visually told the story of the exhibition and its outcomes and impacts. And I filled in the boring book, I call it the BBC, the boring but crucial. How we funded it, how we organised the project, management around it, the planning and getting buy in from the rest of the trustees at the beginning, because it was potentially a big financial commitment if we hadn't been able to fund it. Paul Marden: Isn't it interesting? So coming to an event like this is always. There's always so much to learn, it's always an enriching experience to come. But it's a great opportunity, isn't it, for a small museum and art gallery such as Petersfield? It feels a little bit like you're punching above your weight, doesn't it, to be invited onto this stage to talk about it. But really you're telling this amazing story and it's of interest to everybody that's here. Jeremy Mitchell: We want to share it. If we've been able to do it, then why can't they? Why can't you? Why can't we all do it? And yes, you need the story, but if you dig deep enough, those stories are there. Paul Marden: Absolutely, Absolutely. One of the things that is a real common conversation here, M and H, is looking forward, crystal ball gazing, talking. There's challenges in the sector, isn't there? There's lots of challenges around funding and I guess as a small museum, you must feel those choppy waters quite acutely. Jeremy Mitchell: Definitely. I mean, we're an independent museum, so we're not affected by spending cuts because we don't get any funding from that area. But the biggest challenge is from the funding perspective. Yes, we have a big income gap every year that we need to bridge. And now that so much more of the sector is losing what was its original core funding, they're all fishing in the same pond as us and they've got. Invariably they've got a fundraising team probably bigger than our entire museum team, let alone the volunteer fundraiser that we've got. So, yes, it is a challenge and you are having to run faster just to stand still. The ability to put on an exhibition like Peggy Guggenheim shows that we are worth it. Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. Jeremy Mitchell: And the Guggenheim was funded by Art Fund Western loan programme and an Arts Council project grant. And it was a large Arts Council project grant. Paul Marden: So although everyone's fishing in the same pond as you're managing to yeah. To stretch my analogy just a little bit too far, you are managing to. To get some grant funding and. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. Paul Marden: And lift some tiddlers out the pond. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. But it was quite clear that with Peggy it was a story that had to be told. Paul Marden: So we talked a little bit about challenging times. But one of the big opportunities at M and H is to be inspired to think about where the opportunities are going forwards. You've had a day here today. What are you thinking as inspiration as next big things for Petersfield Museum. Jeremy Mitchell: I'm finding that really difficult because we're small, we're a small site, Arkansas, I think has got to be a way forward. I miss the talk. But they're all being recorded. Paul Marden: Yes. Jeremy Mitchell: So I shall be picking that one up with interest. But AR is something. We've got police cells. Well, we've got a police cell. Paul Marden: Okay. Jeremy Mitchell: Now, wouldn't it be great to tell an augmented reality story of Victorian justice to kids? Paul Marden: Yes. Jeremy Mitchell: While they're sat in a victory in a Victorian police cell on a hard wooden bench. That is the original bench that this prisoners would have slept on. Paul Marden: I've done enough school visits to know there's enough kids that I could put in a jail just to keep them happy or to at least keep them quiet whilst the rest of us enjoy our visit. Yes. I feel like I need to come to Petersfield and talk more about Peggy because I think there might be an entire episode of Skip the Queue to talk just about putting on a big exhibition like that. Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah, no, definitely. If you drop me an email you can skip the queue and I'll take you around. Paul Marden: Oh lovely, Rachel, welcome to Skip the Queue. You join me here at M and H show. And we've taken over someone's stand, haven't we? I know, it feels a bit weird, doesn't it? Rachel Kuhn: I feel like we're squatting but I. Paul Marden: Feel a little bit like the Two Ronnies, cuz we're sat behind the desk. It's very strange. Which one are you? Anyway, just for listeners. Introduce yourself for me. Tell listeners what it is that you do at BOP Consulting. Rachel Kuhn: Yeah, so I'm Rachel Kuhn, I'm an associate director at BOP and we specialise in culture and the creative economy and kind of working across everything that is to do with culture and creative economy globally. But I lead most of our strategy and planning projects, particularly in the UK and Ireland, generally working with arts, heritage, cultural organisations, from the very earliest big picture strategy through to real nitty gritty sort of operational plans and outside of bop. I'm a trustee for Kids in Museums, where we love to hang, and also a new trustee with the Postal Museum. Paul Marden: Given what you do at bop, this must be like the highlight of the year for you to just soak up what everybody is doing. Rachel Kuhn: I love it. I mean, it's so lovely just going around, chatting to everybody, listening in on the talks and I think that spirit of generosity, you know, like, it just comes across, doesn't it? And it just reminds me why I love this sector, why I'm here. You know, everyone wants to, you know, contribute and it's that whole sort of spirit of what do they say? We know when the tide rises, so do all the boats or all the ships. And I feel like that's the spirit here and it's lovely. Paul Marden: It is such a happy place and it's such a busy, vibrant space, isn't it? What have been the standout things for you that you've seen today? Rachel Kuhn: I think probably on that spirit of generosity. Rosie Baker at the founding museum talking about the incredible work they've done with their events, hires, programmes. Obviously got to give a shout out to the Association of Cultural Enterprise. I've been doing a lot of hanging out there at their stage day. So Gurdon gave us the rundown of the benchmarking this morning. Some really good takeaways from that and Rachel Mackay, I mean, like, obviously. Paul Marden: Want to go into. Rachel Kuhn: You always want to see her. Really good fun, but lovely to hear. She's talking about her strategy, the Visitor Experience strategy. And you know what, I spend so much time going into places looking at these sub strategies, like visual experience strategies that just haven't been written in alignment with the overall strategy. So it's lovely to see that linking through, you know, and obviously I'm from a Visitor Experience background, so hugely passionate about the way that Visitor Experience teams can make visitors feel the organization's values. And that alignment was really impressive. So, yeah, really lovely and loads of great takeaways from all those talks. Paul Marden: I will just say for listeners, all of these talks have been recorded, so everyone's going to be able to download the materials. It take a couple of weeks before they were actually published. But one of the questions that I've asked everybody in these vox pops has been, let's do some crystal ball gazing. It's. It stinks at the moment, doesn't it? The, the, the economy is fluctuating, there is so much going on. What do you see 6 to 12 month view look like? And then let's really push the boat out. Can we crystal ball gaze maybe in five years? Rachel Kuhn: Yeah.  I mean, look, I think the whole problem at the moment and what's causing that sort of nervousness is there's just a complete lack of surety about loads of things. You know, in some ways, you know, many organisations have welcomed the extension for the MPO round, the current round, but for many, you know, that's just pushed back the opportunity to get in on that round that little bit further away. It's caused that sort of nervousness with organisations are having to ride on with the same funding that they asked for some years ago that just doesn't, you know, match, you know, and it's actually a real time cut for them. Paul Marden: Absolutely. Rachel Kuhn: So I think, very hard to say, I don't know that there's much I can say. I feel like as at sea as everyone else, I think about what the landscape looks like in the next six months, but I think that never has there been, you know, a better time than something like this like the M and H show. You know, this is about coming together and being generous and sharing that information and I think reaching out to each other and making sure that we're sort of cross pollinating there. There's so much good stuff going on and we've always been really good at that and I think sometimes when we're feeling a bit down, it feels like, oh, I just don't want to go to something like this and meet others and, you know, get into a bit of a misery cycle. Rachel Kuhn: But actually it's so uplifting to be at something like this. And I think, you know, what we've seen here is at the show today, I think, is organisations being really generous with their experience and their expertise. Suppliers and consultants and supporters of the sector being really generous with their time and their expertise and actually just shows just spending a bit of time with each other, asking things of each other. We've just got loads of stuff to share and we're all really up for it. And I think that generosity is so critical and I mean, obviously I'm going to plug, I've got to plug it. Rachel Kuhn: So, you know, if you are a supplier, if you are a commercial business working in this sector, it might be tough times for you, but it's certainly nowhere near as hard as it is for the arts and cultural heritage organisations in the sector. You know, reach out to them and see how you can support them and help them. I mean, you and I have both been on a bit of a drive recently to try and drum up some sponsorship and corporate support for kids in museums who, you know, an Arts council MPO who we're incredible, incredibly proud to represent and, you know, do reach out to us. If you've been thinking, oh, I just want to sponsor something and I'd love to sponsor us. Paul Marden: Exactly. I mean, there's loads of opportunities when you take kids in museums as an example, loads of opportunities for. And this is what Arts Council wants us to do. They want us to be more independent, to generate more of our own funding and we've got a great brand, we do some amazing work and there's lots of opportunities for those commercial organisations who align with our values to help to support us. Rachel Kuhn: So I think you asked me there about what's in the next year. So next year, six months, I don't know is the answer. I think it's just a difficult time. So my advice is simply get out there, connect, learn from each other, energise each other, bring each other up. Let's not get into that sort of doom cycle. That's very easy next five years. You know what, I've had some really interesting meetings and conversations over the last. Well, one particularly interesting one today, some other ones about some funds that might be opening up, which I think is really exciting. You know, we've seen this really big challenge with funding, you know, slowing funding going in much larger amounts to a smaller number of large organisations and that causes real problems. But I think there might be a small turnaround on that. Rachel Kuhn: I'm not crumbs in the earth. I think it's still tough times. But that was really exciting to hear about. I'm also seeing here at the show today. I've been speaking to a lot of suppliers whose their models seem to be shifting a lot. So a lot more opportunities here where it requires no investment from the attraction and a lot more sort of interesting and different types of profit share models, which I think is really interesting. So I think the other thing I'd say is if you're an attraction, don't discount partnering some of these organisations because actually, you know, go and talk to them. Rachel Kuhn: Don't just, don't just count them out because you think you haven't got anything to invest because many of them are visiting new models and the couple that I've spoken to who aren't, learn from your competitors and start doing some different models. And I think that's been really interesting to hear some very different models here for some of the products, which is really exciting. Paul Marden: It is really hard sitting on the other side of the fence, as a supplier, we need cash flow as well. We've got to pay bills and all of those sorts of things. But you're right, there are interesting ways in which we all want to have a conversation. As you say, don't sit back afraid to engage in the conversation because you've got nothing to invest, you've got an important brand, you've got an audience. Those are valuable assets that a supplier like us would want to partner with you to help you to bring a project to life. And that might be on a rev share model, it might be on a service model. There's lots of different ways you can slice it and dice it. Rachel Kuhn: And going back, on a closing note, I suppose, going back to that generosity thing, don't think because you haven't got any money to commission, you know, a supplier to the sector or a commercial company, that you can't reach out to them. Like, you know, we are in this because we really want to support these organisations. This is our passion. You know, many of us are from the sector. You know, I will always connect somebody or introduce somebody or find a way to get a little bit of pro bono happening, or, you know, many of my colleagues are on advisory committees, we're board members. And I think that's the same for so many of the companies that are, like, working with the sector. You know, reach out and ask for freebie, you know, don't ask, don't get. Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. Rachel, it is delightful to talk to you as always. Thank you for joining us on Skip the Queue and I am sure, I'm sure we'll make this into a full episode one day soon. I do say that to everybody. Rachel Kuhn: Thanks so much. Lovely to speak to you. Paul Marden: Andy. Andy Povey: Paul.Paul Marden: We've just walked out of the M and H show for another year. What are your thoughts? Andy Povey: First, I'm exhausted, absolutely exhausted. I'm not sure that I can talk anymore because I've spent 48 hours having some of the most interesting conversations I've had all year. Paul Marden: No offence, Tonkin. Andy Povey: You were part of some of those conversations, obviously, Paul. Paul Marden: I was bowled over again by just the sheer number of people that were there and all those lovely conversations and everybody was just buzzing for the whole two days. Andy Povey: The energy was phenomenal. I worked out that something like the 15th show, M & H show that I've been to, and I don't know whether it's just recency because it's sitting in the far front of my mind at the moment, but it seems like this was the busiest one there's ever been. Paul Marden: Yeah, I can believe it. The one thing that didn't change, they're still working on Olympia. Andy Povey: I think that just goes on forever. It's like the fourth Bridge. Paul Marden: Talks that stood out to you. Andy Povey: I really enjoyed interpretation One led by the guy from the sign language education company whose name I can't remember right now. Paul Marden: Yeah, Nate. That was an amazing talk, listeners. We will be getting him on for a full interview. I'm going to solve the problem of how do I make a inherently audio podcast into something that's accessible for deaf people? By translating the podcast medium into some sort of BSL approach. So that was the conversation that we had yesterday after the talk. Andy Povey: I know. I really look forward to that. Then, of course, there was the George and Elise from Complete Works. Paul Marden: I know. They were amazing, weren't they? You couldn't tell at all that they were actors. Do you know, it was really strange when George. So there was a point in that talk that George gave where we all had a collective breathing exercise and it was just. It was. It was so brilliantly done and were all just captivated. There must have been. I rechon there was 100 people at theatre at that point. Absolutely. Because it was standing room only at the back. And were all just captivated by George. Just doing his click. Very, very clever. Andy Povey: But massively useful. I've seen the same thing from George before and I still use it to this day before going on to make a presentation myself. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Andy Povey: Just grounding yourself, centering yourself. Well, it's fantastic. Paul Marden: Yeah. But the whole thing that they were talking about of how do we create opportunities to have meaningful conversations with guests when they arrive or throughout their entire experience at an attraction so that we don't just talk about the weather like we're typical English people. Andy Povey: That's great, isn't it? Go and tell a Brit not to talk. Talk about the weather. Paul Marden: But training your staff makes absolute sense. Training your staff to have the skills and the confidence to not talk about the weather. I thought that was really interesting. Andy Povey: It's an eye opener, isn't it? Something really simple, but could be groundbreaking. Paul Marden: Yeah. Andy Povey: Then what was your view on all of the exhibitors? What did you take away from all the stands and everybody? Paul Marden: Well, I loved having my conversation yesterday with Alan Turing. There was an AI model of Alan Turing that you could interact with and ask questions. And it was really interesting. There was a slight latency, so it didn't feel quite yet like a natural conversation because I would say something. And then there was a pause as Alan was thinking about it. But the things that he answered were absolutely spot on, the questions that I asked. So I thought that was quite interesting. Other exhibitors. Oh, there was a lovely point yesterday where I was admiring, there was a stand doing custom designed socks and I was admiring a design of a Jane Austen sock and there was just somebody stood next to me and I just said, "Oh, Jane Austen socks." Paul Marden: Very on Trend for the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen, that all of the museums in Hampshire will be buying those up. And should funnily you should say that I'm the chief executive of Chawton Park House, which is one of the museums in the last place that Jane Austen lived. So very interesting, very small world moment at that point. Andy Povey: I do, it's almost an oxymoron to talk about Jane Austen socks. I don't imagine her having worn anything with nylon or Lycra in it. Paul Marden: Very true. I hadn't tweaked that. Andy Povey: There was a lot of AI there wasn't there AI this, AI that. Paul Marden: And there were some really good examples of where that is being used in real life. Yeah, yeah. So there were some examples where there's AI being used to help with visitor counts around your attraction, to help you to optimise where you need to put people. I thought that Neil at Symantec just talking about what he called answer engine optimisation. That was interesting. There were some brilliant questions. There was one question from an audience member asking, are there any tools available for you to figure out whether how well your organisation is doing at being the source of truth for AI tools? Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. So almost like your Google search engine ranking. Paul Marden: But exactly for ChatGPT. Andy Povey: And have you found one yet? Paul Marden: No, not yet. There's also quite a lot of people talking about ideas that have yet to find a home. Andy Povey: Yes. What a very beautiful way of putting it. Paul Marden: The people that have. That are presenting a topic that has yet to get a real life case study associated with it. So the rubber hasn't yet hit the road. I don't think on that. Andy Povey: No. I think that's true for an awful lot of AI, isn't it? Not just in our sector. Paul Marden: No. Andy Povey: It's very interesting to see where that's all going to go. And what are we going to think when we look back on this in two or three years time? Was it just another chocolate teapot or a problem looking for a solution? Or was it the revolution that we all anticipate. Paul Marden: And I think it will make fundamentals change. I think it's changing rapidly. But we need more real case studies of how you can do something interesting that is beyond just using ChatGPT to write your marketing copy for you. Andy Povey: Yeah, I mean it's all about putting the guest at the front of it, isn't it? Let's not obsess about the technology, let's look at what the technology is going to enable us to do. And back to the first part of this conversation, looking at accessibility, then are there tools within AI that are going to help with that? Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So there was definitely. There was an interesting talk by Vox. The people that provide, they provide all of the radio boxes for everybody to wear at M and H that provides you with the voiceover of all of the speakers. But they use this technology across all manner of different attractions and they were talking about using AI to do real time translation of tours. So you could. Andy Povey: Very interesting. Paul Marden: Yeah. So you could have an English speaker wandering around doing your tour and it could real time translate up to. I think it was up to four languages. Andy Povey: BSL not being one of those languages. Paul Marden: Well, no, they were talking about real time in app being able to see subtitles. Now, I don't know whether they went on to say you could do BSL. And we know from the other presentation that not everybody that is deaf is able to read subtitles as fast as they can consume sign language. So it's important to have BSL. But there were some parts of that Vox product that did it address deaf people. It wasn't just multilingual content. Andy Povey: So AI people, if you're listening, you can take the idea of translating into BSL in real time and call it your own. Paul Marden: Yeah, we very much enjoyed hosting our theatre, didn't we? That was a lot. And Anna, if you are listening, and I hope you are, because lots of people have said very nice things in this episode about M and H. Andy and I would love to come back next year. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Paul Marden: And host a theatre for you. Any other thoughts? Andy Povey: Just really looking forward to the rest of the week off. Yeah, it's a sign of a good show when you walk away with all that positive feeling and that positive exhaustion and you probably need a week to reflect on all of the conversations that we've had. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Next up we is AIM Conference at Mary Rose in June. I can't wait very much. Looking forward to that. Thank you ever so much for listening. We will join you again in a few weeks. See you soon. Bye Bye. Andy Povey: Draw.Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.  The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

What's in a name? Rather a lot, as Jane and Fi discover in this email-only episode. They also discuss gardening, Slough, Bruce Springsteen, and Laura Ashley. Plus, they read out your responses to an email from Thursday's episode... And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: janeandfi@times.radioThe next book club pick has been announced! We'll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

 Today, we're talking with Nancy De Losa from AQTO Cycling Tours in Italy. For AQTO, the magic of riding in Italy is all about the challenge and reward. You get testing yourself on Italy's most exhilarating climbs and descents while immersing yourself in authentic Italian hospitality. Facebook   Twitter   Instagram Love the show? Subscribe,  rate, review, and share! Sign up for my Newsletter  HERE I'd love to hear your feedback about the show! You can contact me here:  rick@theoutdoorbizpodcast.com   What Happened: We didn't mean to start a cycling tour business in Italy. No, really. It all started with a blog post. Damien rode a legendary vintage bike ride in Tuscany, blogged about it for his cycling apparel brand, and boom—emails started rolling in: “Do you run tours?” Cue the two of us looking at each other with raised eyebrows and saying, “...Maybe we do?” One spontaneous road trip, a few door knocks, and a hotel booking later—AQTO Cycling Tours was born. Here's the kicker: I'm not a cyclist. Not even close. I married one. I live with one. But cycling? Doesn't sing to my soul. Yoga and red wine, yes. Lycra and bike grease? Not so much. So I created something for the others like me—the non-cycling partners, the half-riders, the aspiring adventurers who want the Italian magic without the saddle sores. From curated cooking classes to 3,000-year-old olive trees, that little side program became a unique (and very loved) part of our brand. Principle: Just because you're not the “typical” expert in the room doesn't mean you don't belong in the business. In fact, your “different lens” might be the very thing that makes the experience more complete, more inclusive, and more memorable for everyone involved. Transition: A lot of us think we need to be “all in” on something to make it work—like being a hardcore cyclist to lead cycling tours. But the truth is, many adventure-based brands get stuck trying to serve only the enthusiasts. And in doing so, they forget about the partners, the dreamers, and the curious souls who crave the journey, just not the climbs. That's why so many businesses feel out of reach for the average person. They're built on the assumption that only experts belong. That's Why: That's why this episode of the Outdoor Adventure Lifestyle Podcast exists—to show how Nancy and Damien built a boutique Italian adventure company that doesn't just cater to cyclists, but to humans who crave culture, community, and challenge. Whether you ride or not, their approach is a masterclass in designing an inclusive, enriching experience that welcomes everyone at the table (and on the trail). Call to Action: Tired of feeling like adventures are only for “serious” athletes? It's frustrating when travel feels like a test, not a treat. That's why this episode is a must-listen—because there's a different way to explore. One that fits you. [Listen here to episode 506 now] Show Notes What what advice would you give someone who's never done an international cycling tour before but wants to give it a shot? I probably would say stop thinking about it and just do it.- Nancy De Losa Do you have a favorite book? Yes, it's called "Italian Joy" by Carla Olson. Favorite piece of cycling gear Q36.6 windshell Follow up with Nancy: AQTO Cycling  

The 888 COR LORD phone line has lit up the last couple of weeks, and the boys address numerous calls from listeners with questions about backcountry skiing, DOPE or DERPs including wearing full Lycra while mountain biking in the backcountry, riding a splitboard inbounds at a ski resort, blasting music on a Bluetooth speaker while riding and tracking vert skied at a resort and posting to Strava. The boys also talk about the recent closure of all trails in and around Marlette Lake and Spooner Lake State Park for the next two summers and beating the tariff price increases coming with outdoor gear. Trail Whisperer gets chainsaw certified, ASS rants about people saying “could care less” instead of “couldn't care less” and gets his first snowboard lesson from Pow Bot at Donner Ski Ranch. 3:20 – Pow Bot gives Trail Whisperer snowboard lessons at Donner Ski Ranch. 11:30 – You have to ride the chairlift to become a better skier before backcountry skiing. And if you want to be a better mountain biker, don't ride the chairlift.18:20 – Trail Whisperer gets chainsaw certified by the U.S. Forest Service.21:50 – Pow Bot starts riding his mountain bike after spring skiing burnout and Trail Whisperer almost gets attacked by a swarm of bees. 25:50 – Listener feedback and 888 COR LORD call-ins – Fritz from Calpine – Kirkwood closing day, pond skimming. 31:10 – Shred the Gnerd – wants to get into backcountry splitboarding and is seeking advice about what to do in the off-season to prepare. 37:26 – Mystery Non-NARP – DOPE or DERP – Full Lycra kit in the backcountry?46:10 – Gordo – about to hike the entire Pacific Crest Trail over the next 5 months and a bit about the book “Born to Run” and the 5 finger shoes.52:20 – Steve emailed us about the 10 Shredmandments and people doing dumb things.56:30 – Nevada State Parks shuts down all trails around Marlette Lake for two years.1:03:10 – Washoe County Releases Mount Rose recreational trails survey – https://engage.zencity.io/washoe-county-nv/en/engagements/580ebe44-fd70-4b4d-a9e2-bc0c593d55f6?utm_medium=referral1:04:50 – How are you going to beat the increase in outdoor gear costs due to tariffs?1:09:00 – DOPE or DERP – Riding a splitboard at a ski resort.1:12:55 – DOPE or DERP – Tracking vert skied at a resort and posting to Strava.1:16:25 – DOPE or DERP – Bluetooth speakers while riding.1:21:30 – ASS RANT – could care less vs couldn't care less. 1:23:55 – ON A MUSICAL NOTE – Ethiopian Jazz – Mulatu Estatke. Shout out to Myles at Incline Spirits.

Welcome to Hell... Katherine Ryan!Darlings! This week we drag the devil herself into the studio: the queen of sharp tongues and high drama, Katherine Ryan. We chat Lycra lads who think they own the road, and the national crisis that is wet towels. Plus, Katherine shares tales of a cheating husband (not hers), and the aunties weigh in on just how hellish relationships can really get. It's messy, it's righteous, it's everything you'd expect from two bitter gays and a Canadian icon.For more chaotic chats and exclusive behind-the-scenes madness, join the VIP Inner Circle at: patreon.com/thehellpodDon't forget to send us your unfiltered thoughts, memes, and recommendations:@thehellpodProduced by: PodcastHouse.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Joe Holroyde—known to millions as “Joe H”—joins The Peer Project just before the grand finale of Gladiators 2025. But his story goes far beyond red Lycra and obstacle courses.   Once unable to run down the street, Joe turned his life around to become one of the most beloved contenders on TV. In this powerful and heartwarming episode, Joe opens up about his journey, the message behind that travelator moment, imposter syndrome, his surprise BBC casting, and inspiring other bearded dads to take that first step.   Whether you're looking for motivation, a reason to smile, or proof that it's never too late—this one's for you.   Listen, be inspired, and maybe even start moving again.   Supporters Club: https://thepeerproject.co.uk/supporters   #JoeH #Gladiators2025 #ThePeerProject #JoeHolroyd #BeardedDad #FitnessJourney #FromUnfitToFinalist #MentalHealth #BBCGladiators #Inspiration #OvercomingDoubt #TransformationStory #RealConversations

In this episode Gary Mansfield speaks to Daisy Collingridge (@Daisy_Collingridge) Daisy Collingridge is a artist renowned for her unique and thought-provoking textile sculptures. A graduate of Central Saint Martins with a background in fashion design, her work bridges the gap between fine art, sculpture, and costume.Her creations are imaginative, surreal, and often playful, characterised by their fleshy, anthropomorphic forms made from intricately stitched layers of fabric. These pieces, which she refers to as "Squishies," explore themes of human anatomy, identity, and the boundaries of the body. Daisy uses materials like Lycra, jersey, and wadding to craft tactile, exaggerated forms that are both grotesque and endearing. Her sculptures often evoke visceral responses, challenging perceptions of beauty and bodily norms while maintaining an underlying sense of humour. Collingridge's work has been exhibited in galleries across the UK and internationally, capturing attention for its innovative approach to textile art. Through her practice, she continues to push the boundaries of materiality and storytelling in contemporary sculpture. For more information on the work of Daisy Collingridge go to https:// DaisyCollingridge.com To Support this podcast from as little as £3 per month: www.patreon/ministryofarts For full line up of confirmed artists go to https://www.ministryofarts.co.ukEmail: ministryofartsorg@gmail.comSocial Media: @ministryofartsorg Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Regular listeners would know that we at QF are avid op shoppers. We like nothing more than to rifle through $1 baskets of stale smelling Lycra at our local Noffs in the hope of finding an original Donna Karan bodysuit.But that's because we have the choice. We have the leisure time, the energy and even the funds to cover those pesky op shop inflations..For those one in eight adult Australians who live below the poverty line, and for women in shelters who have escaped domestic violence, choice of any kind is a luxury, and actually so is being gifted the chance of a fresh start with a carefully curated wardrobe of never worn - never sold clothes courtesy of Thread Together.Just a few years ago Burberry was famously caught burning its excess stock for fear it'd end up in the hands of the poor (if you're British you'll know how ironic this is, given the chav check and the old adage that style can't be bought, but that's another story for another episode) ..Impressive, then, that Thread Together has managed to successfully convince 2,000 fashion brands to be less mean (and toxic) about their unsold stock. Overproduction to the tune of 30 per cent is the norm now. According to Thread Together CEO Anthony Chesler, for our planet's eight billion people there are now $100 billion units of clothing being produced annually. No wonder the TT warehouse is so vast.We opened this can of wriggling worms after a tour of the place last year with the man himself…… and while we're none the wiser about overproduction, we wholeheartedly concede that Thread Together is a great service making the best of a bad situation. Find out about teambuilding and volunteer opportunities here.Remember to email any questions or comments and please use the codeword ‘Acorn' in the subject line (we'll explain later lol…)Email: questioningfashionpodcast@slogue.com.auWe'd love a review on Apple PodcastsAnd follow us here..instagram.com/questioningfashionpodcastinstagram.com/jogambaleinstagram.com/alidibleytiktok.com/@bellstreet This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit questioningfashion.substack.com

Servicing Clients.Based on a post by Ostrich Mack. Listen to the ► Podcast at Steamy Stories.Hotel Guest, Lydia.Lydia Carlson was a businesswoman and operated at senior level for the travel agency which bore the family name. The firm had been founded by her grandfather 50 years earlier and had grown to be one of the most prestigious in Europe.Lydia didn't get to her position because of her family ties, as there was a serious work ethic in the family. If you wanted success, you had to earn it. Lydia had studied at university and had worked in other travel agencies to gain experience before moving back to the family nest. Now she was head of procurement, traveling throughout Europe to contract hotels for her company.Lydia was stunningly beautiful. An only child, with as her name would suggest, a Danish background, she had grown up in England. Despite her Scandinavian background, Lydia was not a typical tall, blond haired, blue eyed beauty, but rather a brunette with deep brown eyes. At 36 years old, she was about 5'9" with a slim athletic figure. Her tits and ass were in perfect proportion to her height and weight. Her skin positively glowed and she was always impeccably dressed.Lydia was always guarded when she made new acquaintances, preferring to listen, and assess who it was exactly she was talking to. To some, that came across as aloof.Knowing this, Peter wondered why she had chosen to reserve in his hotel for a midweek stay.Peter's Hotel was a comfortable family run place with good rooms, and a good restaurant. A quiet place to relax and enjoy the garden and the local countryside, and of course the local delicacies. It was certainly not the high-end luxury resorts that Peter assumed Lydia would be used to.To that end Peter was curious. He had googled Lydia and read extensively about her career. There was very little to glean about her private life as Lydia didn't "do" social media.On the evening of her arrival at the hotel, Lydia decided to dine in their restaurant. Peter was delighted to be able to introduce himself to her. At 6'1" and very athletic, Peter cut an impressive figure. He was a presence wherever he went.Lydia was seated in the restaurant. She was as usual impeccably dressed in a bias cut skirt, which reached to just below her knees, showing off her shapely calves. She wore medium heeled sandals which displayed her perfectly manicured toes. Her blouse was a silk round neck with short sleeves. Her wavy hair tumbled down to just below her shoulder. Around her neck she wore a colorful silk scarf.Lydia smiled at Peter as he approached. Her smile lit up the room."Good evening, Mrs. Carlson." He said."It's Miss Carlson." She replied, "And please, call me Lydia."Peter blushed a little. "My apologies, Lydia." He said awkwardly. "My name is Peter Talbot. I am the owner of the hotel, and I am delighted you have chosen to stay with us. If we can do anything to make your stay more comfortable, please let me know."Lydia raised an eyebrow and laughed gently. "Hmm, anything?" she asked with a grin."Of course." Peter said. "We're at your service. It's lovely to meet you. I'm sure we will see each other during your stay.""Well, I certainly hope so." Replied Lydia, smiling."Great." Said Peter. "Enjoy your meal, I will see you at breakfast tomorrow.""Thank you so much Peter." Lydia replied. "May I call you Peter.""Of course, Lydia," Peter replied. He was a little flustered. Was she flirting or was she just simply an incredibly charming woman.The next day.Peter was, as always, up at dawn to prepare breakfast for the hotel guests. This was his favorite part of the working day. An hour and a half undisturbed work, preparing an extensive breakfast buffet for his guests enjoyment.Breakfast started at 7.30am, but at 7.15 Peter heard someone enter the restaurant. Luckily everything was ready, so he just switched on the lights and the background music.As usual he entered the restaurant, to greet his guests. To his surprise, it was Lydia. Dressed in a simple sweatshirt and shorts, she was as beautiful as the evening before. Her hair was wrestled into a ponytail, which accentuated her pretty face. Her high cheekbones and dimpled cheeks made her even more beautiful than Peter had observed."So, the early bird." Peter joked."Gets the first worm." Lydia replied."Are you calling me a worm?" Peter asked, feigning shock.They both laughed. Peter explained everything on the buffet, and Lydia listened patiently, despite having stayed in hundreds of hotels for her work. She thought it sweet that Peter took the time to show her how everything worked.Peter was excited. He couldn't explain what this beautiful, charming woman did to him, but he felt like a teenager with a crush, in her presence."So, Peter," Lydia said. "I was thinking of going for a hike through the hills today. Can you recommend a route?""How far would you like to walk?" Peter asked."Well, I like to keep in shape, so at least 10k." Lydia replied."No problem." Peter replied. "But you should be aware that the routes are not really well marked. You need to be able to read a topographical map for most routes.""Hmm. That is one thing I am not great at." Lydia replied. "Maybe you could recommend a guide?""Ah," said Peter. "At such short notice, a guide will be difficult. But if you would like me to guide you, I am free at 11.""That sounds lovely. Will you order a packed lunch for us to take away?" Lydia asked."Leave it to me." Peter replied. He was secretly thrilled to be able to accompany Lydia for the afternoon.The walk.At 11 sharp, Peter stood in the lounge, ready with a rucksack containing a lunch he had prepared himself. A bottle of champagne, Pâté de Fois gras, Local cheeses and meat cuts and of course, fresh bread and a basket of strawberries. Peter was laying it on for this walk.Lydia appeared from the lift, a vision to his eyes. She had her hiking shoes on, and long socks. Her shorts were loose around her ass and a sort of combat style. Above her shorts she had a tight Lycra shirt which accentuated her tits. She was clearly not wearing a bra. A silk scarf tied like a bandana covered her head with her hair in a ponytail out the back, and a pair of designer sunglasses completed the look.She looked like a model from a camping catalogue."Peter!" she cried. "How nice of you to go to all this effort for me.""It is my pleasure." Peter replied. "Shall we?"They left the hotel. Peter had chosen a route up into the hills via a number of steep climbs to a perfect picnic spot. At first the going was easy, and they chatted amicably about the local countryside and history.Later as the climbs became steeper, there was little time for conversation as they needed to save their breath. Peter helped Lydia up the steeper paths by leading and offered her a hand when the incline was very steep. Lydia was not inclined to let Peter see that she couldn't keep up, but he was a very experienced rambler.Most of the time, Peter walked behind Lydia furtively admiring her perfect ass.Finally, after about 6k, they reached the picnic spot that Peter had planned. It was a huge rock which balanced on the edge of the highest hill. The view over the countryside was amazing.Lydia, sat down on the rock and stared in amazement at the view. She smiled serenely.Peter made himself busy unpacking the lunch. He laid out a picnic blanket on the rock. When everything was ready, he said in a soft voice."Madam, Lunch is served."Lydia laughed. "I'll bet you think that's how I was raised."Peter replied. "No not at all. I just thought it was funny.""It is funny." Lydia answered. "But let me tell you a little about me."Peter perked up, keen to know more about this beautiful enigmatic woman.Lydia began. "I am an only child. I grew up in a wealthy family and had a wonderful childhood. We had lots of friends where we lived and there were always fun things going on in our house and the neighbors houses.My parents worked very hard to make their business successful, and I learned from an early age that if you want success, you have to work for it.I never really had boyfriends, except for one who broke my heart. I was determined never to feel the pain of giving my heart and soul to someone, only to have them stamp on it. As an only child, I learned to amuse myself, and if I am honest, I like my own company.I have had many casual relationships. Mostly to satisfy my sexual needs. But I don't commit to relationships. That is why I never married. I just like to be alone at the end of the day."Peter blushed. "Wow that is very open and honest. How do you do that? The casual relationship thing?" he asked."Well, I got you to come with me today." Lydia replied, smiling at him. She winked at him.Peter blushed even more."Oh, come on." Lydia said. "You don't think I didn't notice you admiring my ass? Did you think I put on this outfit because it was practical?""I guess not." Peter replied sheepishly. "But you are stunning. Why would you be interested in me?""Peter." Lydia replied. "You are handsome, and very charming. Most of the guys I meet are so full of themselves, and generally looking for some arm candy. That's not me. You seem honest and candid. And you listen without interrupting which tells me you are genuinely interested in what I have to say. That is not only refreshing, but a welcome change."Peter smiled. He poured two glasses of champagne and laid toast with foie gras on a plate and joined Lydia on the rock. They sat there on the blanket enjoying the view, the food and champagne.Peter jumped up. "And now the strawberries."He grabbed the basket and took a strawberry between his fingers. Lydia laid herself out on the blanket.Peter leaned over her and fed her the strawberry. As she opened her mouth, he poured a sip of champagne into her mouth and then a strawberry.Lydia closed her lips around the strawberry and sucked on it suggestively before taking it completely in her mouth.She had Peter's full attention and there was a stirring in his trousers.Lydia looked carefully around, and seeing no one else, she pulled her Lycra shirt up above her head exposing her tits. Peter took a deep breath, she looked amazing.Peter took another strawberry and traced it over her tits, circling her nipples only to finally bring it to her lips.Lydia took a small bite.Peter repeated the action, coating Lydia's exposed tits with strawberry juice and returning to her lips.He bent over Lydia and began to lick the juice from her, concentrating on her tits. Lydia gasped as Peter licked around her nipples, causing them to rise to attention.Lydia groaned in anticipation of the next round."Oh, do go on kind sir," she giggled.Peter moved downward on her body. He planted kisses on her nipples, her ribs, down to her navel. He poured a little champagne in her navel and licked it out with his tongue.He fumbled with her shorts until Lydia helped him by opening the button and pulling down the zipper. Peter pulled on the sides of her shorts. They slid easily down her thighs and to Peter's delight she was not wearing underwear. Her cunt was trimmed short but not completely bare. There was a small triangle of hair just above her mound.Peter slid Lydia's shorts down to her ankles and over her hiking shoes. Now he understood why she had chosen loose shorts.Lydia was lying in her almost naked magnificence on the rock. The hiking shoes and long socks looked almost comical. Peter couldn't believe his luck having this goddess before him.Peter moved further down Lydia's body until he reached her pubic mound.He gently licked the outer lips of her cunt, slowly moving along her weeping slit. As he moved upwards Peter inserted a finger between Lydia's folds. She gasped in anticipation and pulled her gently.Lydia cried out. "Oh! That is so good!"Peter went to work with two fingers in Lydia's sopping cunt. He curled his forefinger upwards to massage her g-spot.Lydia began to buck with her hips. She was getting close to her point of no return.Peter stopped. He knew she was close.Lydia whimpered. "Ah! don't stop."Peter waited. He waited until Lydia's breathing slowed. Then he attacked her cunt again. His mouth on her clit, his fingers moving in and out.

Servicing Clients.Based on a post by Ostrich Mack. Listen to the ► Podcast at Steamy Stories.Hotel Guest, Lydia.Lydia Carlson was a businesswoman and operated at senior level for the travel agency which bore the family name. The firm had been founded by her grandfather 50 years earlier and had grown to be one of the most prestigious in Europe.Lydia didn't get to her position because of her family ties, as there was a serious work ethic in the family. If you wanted success, you had to earn it. Lydia had studied at university and had worked in other travel agencies to gain experience before moving back to the family nest. Now she was head of procurement, traveling throughout Europe to contract hotels for her company.Lydia was stunningly beautiful. An only child, with as her name would suggest, a Danish background, she had grown up in England. Despite her Scandinavian background, Lydia was not a typical tall, blond haired, blue eyed beauty, but rather a brunette with deep brown eyes. At 36 years old, she was about 5'9" with a slim athletic figure. Her tits and ass were in perfect proportion to her height and weight. Her skin positively glowed and she was always impeccably dressed.Lydia was always guarded when she made new acquaintances, preferring to listen, and assess who it was exactly she was talking to. To some, that came across as aloof.Knowing this, Peter wondered why she had chosen to reserve in his hotel for a midweek stay.Peter's Hotel was a comfortable family run place with good rooms, and a good restaurant. A quiet place to relax and enjoy the garden and the local countryside, and of course the local delicacies. It was certainly not the high-end luxury resorts that Peter assumed Lydia would be used to.To that end Peter was curious. He had googled Lydia and read extensively about her career. There was very little to glean about her private life as Lydia didn't "do" social media.On the evening of her arrival at the hotel, Lydia decided to dine in their restaurant. Peter was delighted to be able to introduce himself to her. At 6'1" and very athletic, Peter cut an impressive figure. He was a presence wherever he went.Lydia was seated in the restaurant. She was as usual impeccably dressed in a bias cut skirt, which reached to just below her knees, showing off her shapely calves. She wore medium heeled sandals which displayed her perfectly manicured toes. Her blouse was a silk round neck with short sleeves. Her wavy hair tumbled down to just below her shoulder. Around her neck she wore a colorful silk scarf.Lydia smiled at Peter as he approached. Her smile lit up the room."Good evening, Mrs. Carlson." He said."It's Miss Carlson." She replied, "And please, call me Lydia."Peter blushed a little. "My apologies, Lydia." He said awkwardly. "My name is Peter Talbot. I am the owner of the hotel, and I am delighted you have chosen to stay with us. If we can do anything to make your stay more comfortable, please let me know."Lydia raised an eyebrow and laughed gently. "Hmm, anything?" she asked with a grin."Of course." Peter said. "We're at your service. It's lovely to meet you. I'm sure we will see each other during your stay.""Well, I certainly hope so." Replied Lydia, smiling."Great." Said Peter. "Enjoy your meal, I will see you at breakfast tomorrow.""Thank you so much Peter." Lydia replied. "May I call you Peter.""Of course, Lydia," Peter replied. He was a little flustered. Was she flirting or was she just simply an incredibly charming woman.The next day.Peter was, as always, up at dawn to prepare breakfast for the hotel guests. This was his favorite part of the working day. An hour and a half undisturbed work, preparing an extensive breakfast buffet for his guests enjoyment.Breakfast started at 7.30am, but at 7.15 Peter heard someone enter the restaurant. Luckily everything was ready, so he just switched on the lights and the background music.As usual he entered the restaurant, to greet his guests. To his surprise, it was Lydia. Dressed in a simple sweatshirt and shorts, she was as beautiful as the evening before. Her hair was wrestled into a ponytail, which accentuated her pretty face. Her high cheekbones and dimpled cheeks made her even more beautiful than Peter had observed."So, the early bird." Peter joked."Gets the first worm." Lydia replied."Are you calling me a worm?" Peter asked, feigning shock.They both laughed. Peter explained everything on the buffet, and Lydia listened patiently, despite having stayed in hundreds of hotels for her work. She thought it sweet that Peter took the time to show her how everything worked.Peter was excited. He couldn't explain what this beautiful, charming woman did to him, but he felt like a teenager with a crush, in her presence."So, Peter," Lydia said. "I was thinking of going for a hike through the hills today. Can you recommend a route?""How far would you like to walk?" Peter asked."Well, I like to keep in shape, so at least 10k." Lydia replied."No problem." Peter replied. "But you should be aware that the routes are not really well marked. You need to be able to read a topographical map for most routes.""Hmm. That is one thing I am not great at." Lydia replied. "Maybe you could recommend a guide?""Ah," said Peter. "At such short notice, a guide will be difficult. But if you would like me to guide you, I am free at 11.""That sounds lovely. Will you order a packed lunch for us to take away?" Lydia asked."Leave it to me." Peter replied. He was secretly thrilled to be able to accompany Lydia for the afternoon.The walk.At 11 sharp, Peter stood in the lounge, ready with a rucksack containing a lunch he had prepared himself. A bottle of champagne, Pâté de Fois gras, Local cheeses and meat cuts and of course, fresh bread and a basket of strawberries. Peter was laying it on for this walk.Lydia appeared from the lift, a vision to his eyes. She had her hiking shoes on, and long socks. Her shorts were loose around her ass and a sort of combat style. Above her shorts she had a tight Lycra shirt which accentuated her tits. She was clearly not wearing a bra. A silk scarf tied like a bandana covered her head with her hair in a ponytail out the back, and a pair of designer sunglasses completed the look.She looked like a model from a camping catalogue."Peter!" she cried. "How nice of you to go to all this effort for me.""It is my pleasure." Peter replied. "Shall we?"They left the hotel. Peter had chosen a route up into the hills via a number of steep climbs to a perfect picnic spot. At first the going was easy, and they chatted amicably about the local countryside and history.Later as the climbs became steeper, there was little time for conversation as they needed to save their breath. Peter helped Lydia up the steeper paths by leading and offered her a hand when the incline was very steep. Lydia was not inclined to let Peter see that she couldn't keep up, but he was a very experienced rambler.Most of the time, Peter walked behind Lydia furtively admiring her perfect ass.Finally, after about 6k, they reached the picnic spot that Peter had planned. It was a huge rock which balanced on the edge of the highest hill. The view over the countryside was amazing.Lydia, sat down on the rock and stared in amazement at the view. She smiled serenely.Peter made himself busy unpacking the lunch. He laid out a picnic blanket on the rock. When everything was ready, he said in a soft voice."Madam, Lunch is served."Lydia laughed. "I'll bet you think that's how I was raised."Peter replied. "No not at all. I just thought it was funny.""It is funny." Lydia answered. "But let me tell you a little about me."Peter perked up, keen to know more about this beautiful enigmatic woman.Lydia began. "I am an only child. I grew up in a wealthy family and had a wonderful childhood. We had lots of friends where we lived and there were always fun things going on in our house and the neighbors houses.My parents worked very hard to make their business successful, and I learned from an early age that if you want success, you have to work for it.I never really had boyfriends, except for one who broke my heart. I was determined never to feel the pain of giving my heart and soul to someone, only to have them stamp on it. As an only child, I learned to amuse myself, and if I am honest, I like my own company.I have had many casual relationships. Mostly to satisfy my sexual needs. But I don't commit to relationships. That is why I never married. I just like to be alone at the end of the day."Peter blushed. "Wow that is very open and honest. How do you do that? The casual relationship thing?" he asked."Well, I got you to come with me today." Lydia replied, smiling at him. She winked at him.Peter blushed even more."Oh, come on." Lydia said. "You don't think I didn't notice you admiring my ass? Did you think I put on this outfit because it was practical?""I guess not." Peter replied sheepishly. "But you are stunning. Why would you be interested in me?""Peter." Lydia replied. "You are handsome, and very charming. Most of the guys I meet are so full of themselves, and generally looking for some arm candy. That's not me. You seem honest and candid. And you listen without interrupting which tells me you are genuinely interested in what I have to say. That is not only refreshing, but a welcome change."Peter smiled. He poured two glasses of champagne and laid toast with foie gras on a plate and joined Lydia on the rock. They sat there on the blanket enjoying the view, the food and champagne.Peter jumped up. "And now the strawberries."He grabbed the basket and took a strawberry between his fingers. Lydia laid herself out on the blanket.Peter leaned over her and fed her the strawberry. As she opened her mouth, he poured a sip of champagne into her mouth and then a strawberry.Lydia closed her lips around the strawberry and sucked on it suggestively before taking it completely in her mouth.She had Peter's full attention and there was a stirring in his trousers.Lydia looked carefully around, and seeing no one else, she pulled her Lycra shirt up above her head exposing her tits. Peter took a deep breath, she looked amazing.Peter took another strawberry and traced it over her tits, circling her nipples only to finally bring it to her lips.Lydia took a small bite.Peter repeated the action, coating Lydia's exposed tits with strawberry juice and returning to her lips.He bent over Lydia and began to lick the juice from her, concentrating on her tits. Lydia gasped as Peter licked around her nipples, causing them to rise to attention.Lydia groaned in anticipation of the next round."Oh, do go on kind sir," she giggled.Peter moved downward on her body. He planted kisses on her nipples, her ribs, down to her navel. He poured a little champagne in her navel and licked it out with his tongue.He fumbled with her shorts until Lydia helped him by opening the button and pulling down the zipper. Peter pulled on the sides of her shorts. They slid easily down her thighs and to Peter's delight she was not wearing underwear. Her cunt was trimmed short but not completely bare. There was a small triangle of hair just above her mound.Peter slid Lydia's shorts down to her ankles and over her hiking shoes. Now he understood why she had chosen loose shorts.Lydia was lying in her almost naked magnificence on the rock. The hiking shoes and long socks looked almost comical. Peter couldn't believe his luck having this goddess before him.Peter moved further down Lydia's body until he reached her pubic mound.He gently licked the outer lips of her cunt, slowly moving along her weeping slit. As he moved upwards Peter inserted a finger between Lydia's folds. She gasped in anticipation and pulled her gently.Lydia cried out. "Oh! That is so good!"Peter went to work with two fingers in Lydia's sopping cunt. He curled his forefinger upwards to massage her g-spot.Lydia began to buck with her hips. She was getting close to her point of no return.Peter stopped. He knew she was close.Lydia whimpered. "Ah! don't stop."Peter waited. He waited until Lydia's breathing slowed. Then he attacked her cunt again. His mouth on her clit, his fingers moving in and out.

Radio TRO is brought to you in part by:Twisted Road - Motorcycle Rental in the USAVisit Twisted.TRO.bike to get a FREE riding day!Robin and Brian swap stories about the latest in bike modifications and the quirks that come with mixing gear from different brands. Robin wrestles with transforming his GSX-8R (https://www.google.com/search?q=gsx-8r&tbm=isch) into a sport-touring machine due to compatibility issues between luggage systems. Brian's escape to Cycle Gear's first bike night of the year offers a taste of two-wheeled community.Our first segment welcomes college swimmer Joe Wilson to discuss seasonal workout prep for avid riders. Look to walking, yoga and paint buckets as weightlifting equipment. His analogies balance cardiovascular stamina alongside strength training.Joanne enters by expounding the base layer theory that is Lycra-y silkiness. Jordan's exploration of George Wyman's 1905 coast to coast journey is in full motion, arriving at snow sheds, trestle bridges and the need for a complete engine overhaul. They just don't make riders the way they used to ... or do they?Episode Page: https://tro.bike/podcast/2025e07/Music by Rabid Neon and Otis McDonald

Dans ce podcast, je reçois Eric Yung, le directeur général de Polartec et vice-président de sa société mère Milliken & Company. Polartec est le premier fabricant de solutions textiles innovantes et durables au monde, et ça, depuis l'invention de la première polaire en 1981. La marque est  basée à Andover, aux USA dans le Massachusetts.Dans le monde du textile vélo, les fabricants n'ont eu de cesse de faire progresser techniquement nos équipements. Ils nous protègent des éléments : la pluie, la chaleur, le froid... Certains vont même nous apporter un gain de performance. Le maillot en laine de papa est passé dans les oubliettes de l'histoire, rongé par les mites. Ce changement s'est opéré dans les années 60, quand il a été remplacé par des maillots en "Lycra" issus de la pétrochimie. Alertée par de nombreuses études portant sur les conséquences environnementales et les impacts sur notre santé liés à l'utilisation de ces nouvelles matières, la société opère une prise de conscience ces dernières années. Elle conduit les marques de textiles techniques sportifs à revoir leur copie et à chercher d'autres solutions. Ces matières sont dans le collimateur du législatif et la France vient de voter une interdiction des PFAS à partir du 1er janvier 2026 : la chasse PFAS est ouverte dans notre vestiaire cycliste.J'ai appelé Eric Yung pour qu'il nous présente les différentes démarches de Polartec visant a rendre leurs matière plus éthiques vis-à-vis de l'environnement dans une approche de circularité globale. Écoutons Eric qui nous présente les dernières innovations de cette marque de textiles.Site internet de Polartec https://www.polartec.com/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/polartecfabric/Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/Polartec/Hébergé par Ausha. Visitez ausha.co/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

Zwiftcast co-hosts Rebecca Charlton and Dave Towle are back together to bring you the latest fortnightly episode with news and updates galore, including the much anticipated TrainerRoad integration, news of Sir Chris Hoy's launch of Tour de 4 and the eagerly anticipated return of Zwift Academy! Director of Product Management at Zwift, Nick Kalkounis, chats to Rebecca and Dave about that TrainerRoad news, and Nathan, Shane and Eric join the crew to discuss all things topical on Zwift, including the Peak Zwift result. Dave also meets community inspirer Elaine Montoya to learn about the OWLs, the Older Women in Lycra, and chats to Eric Schlange about the Zwift Insider women's portal.  

The Smart 7 is an award winning daily podcast that gives you everything you need to know in 7 minutes, at 7am, 7 days a week…With over 17 million downloads and consistently charting, including as No. 1 News Podcast on Spotify, we're a trusted source for people every day and we've won Gold at the Signal International Podcast awardsIf you're enjoying it, please follow, share, or even post a review, it all helps... Today's episode includes the following:https://x.com/i/status/1891569342975709266 https://x.com/i/status/1891539906708529202 https://x.com/i/status/1891463283091103819https://x.com/i/status/1891394537475481869 https://x.com/i/status/1891443910347460677 https://x.com/i/status/1891446511554195673 https://x.com/i/status/1891521580255092953 https://x.com/i/status/1891409331179975050 https://x.com/i/status/1891503526167052460 Contact us over @TheSmart7pod or visit www.thesmart7.comVoiced by Jamie East, using AI, written by Liam Thompson, researched by Lucie Lewis and produced by Daft Doris. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, with Gavin away guiding in Japan, we've got Barry Wicks as our host. Wicks is a die-hard ski tourer who brings supremely positive energy into the hills. He's also a recovering bike racer who claims he's sworn off Lycra. Despite his baggy clothes, he's still fast. And he still knows gear. Anyhow, Wicks has a playful nature on skis. And we've been bantering back and forth for a few months about adopting progressive ski designs for those who uphill at resorts. It sort of makes sense—when there is an uphill, hopefully, there is a downhill. And why not try to make the downhill as enjoyable as possible?Wicks' quest to find a rockered twin-tipped ski that is light…isn't exactly easy. On his journey, Wicks speaks with Max Smith, VP of Reno, Nevada's Moment Skis. Who knows, maybe a mythical and lightweight 85-underfoot Wildcat Tour is in our future. If you have specific questions regarding the information (and opinions) presented in the podcast, you can comment on the website or email us on The High Route's contact page (editor@the-high-route.com). The High Route is a reader and listener-supported project, and we'll be releasing our first print edition of The High Route later this winter. You can learn how to support us here.  You can find us at the-high-route.com: Yeah, there are two hyphens for redundancy, which is a good policy in the mountains. And according to Barry Wicks, don't-fear-the-hyphens®.The theme music for The High Route Podcast comes from Storms in the Hill Country and the album The Self Transforming (Thank you, Jens Langsjoen). You can find a link to the album here—there are so many good songs on this album. And if you think you've spotted a UFO in the past or visited the 7th dimension, "Beautiful Alien" is a good tune to begin with.

This Friyaayy we're super stoked to discuss the best and worst dressed on the red carpet from the 2025 Grammy Awards, sharing Holly's favorite fashion moments and standout artists. Plus, we dive into a listener's burning question about shapewear — what's the best way to find shapewear that fits comfortably and enhances your look? Tune in for expert advice on how to shop for shapewear without the struggles.

In today's FittBite, we explain how Liquid Lycra is revolutionizing compression garments.  Learn how this innovation eliminates the need for bulky seams and panels, while offering precise support exactly where it's needed, making sportswear lighter, more breathable, and more functional, ultimately allowing for better performance without compromising on comfort.Tune in to understand how this breakthrough is changing the activewear industry.Book a 1 on 1 with our host, Shadi for personalized advice on how to create and grow your fashion business: https://www.fittdesign.com/services/consultation Design your own collection with our instantly downloadable factory ready tech pack templates: FittDesign Tech Pack Templates Follow our host on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shadiadada/ https://www.instagram.com/fittdesign/ Got any other questions, email us for an instant response at: studio@fittdesign.com Subscribe to our weekly fashion design podcast (New episodes every Thursday at 4pm CST): https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-fittdesign-podcast/id1454410683 Visit our website:https://www.fittdesign.com/ Follow us on:https://www.linkedin.com/company/fittdesign/ https://www.facebook.com/fittdesign https://www.pinterest.com/fittdesign/ https://www.behance....

Servus, bei den JAN ULLRICH ULTRAS! Willkommen zurück bei Eurem Lieblings-Podcast, wo Helden gefeiert, Berge bezwungen und Lycra immer noch als State-of-the-Art gilt. Heute haben wir einen Gast, der nicht nur in den Alpen zu Hause ist, sondern auch in der Spitzengruppe des internationalen Radsports: Georg Steinhauser - der Mann, der auf der 17. Etappe des letztjährigen Giro d'Italia so viele Höhenmeter gefressen hat, dass er vermutlich immer noch Kalorien verbrennt. Georg kommt aus dem Allgäu, wo die Kühe zwar die schönsten Glocken tragen, aber die echten Stars auf zwei Rädern unterwegs sind. Mit seinem Vater Tobias im Gepäck war der Weg ins Profi-Peloton quasi vorprogrammiert. Aber Georg wollte mehr: "Berge hochfahren, die andere runterlaufen - das klingt doch spaßig!" Und zack, da ist er. Die 17. Etappe des Giro war sein großer Moment: 159 Kilometer, knapp 5.000 Höhenmeter und gefühlt 100 Fahrer, die irgendwann dachten: "Wär ich doch lieber auf Mallorca geblieben." Georg aber? Locker in der Spitzengruppe, während wir uns schon beim Gedanken an die Steigung eine Pause gönnen würden. Und genau darüber reden wir heute: Wie schafft man es mit 22 Jahren bei so einem Rennen den alten Hasen im Peloton die Beine weich zu treten? Gibt's bei den Steinhausers ein geheimes Rezept für Allgäuer Superkräfte? Und vor allem: Was macht Georg, wenn er mal nicht über Pässe fliegt? Schreiben wir ihn schon für den nächsten Giro-Sieg ein, oder bleibt noch Zeit für Kässpätzle und Netflix? Also, liebe ULTRAS, schnallt euch an, nehmt den inneren Jan mit auf die Reise und freut euch auf eine Folge voller Geschichten, Lacher und einem Typen, der die Berge noch steiler macht: Hier ist für euch Georg Steinhauser! Vielen Dank, Respekt und höchste Anerkennung, dass Du Dich auf das Abenteuer der JAN ULLRICH ULTRAS eingelassen hast. Teilt und Empfehlt uns gerne weiter und lasst' gerne eine Bewertung auf Spotify, Apple oder Amazon da. Herzlichen Dank. Wie immer -> Bleibt' positiv. Eure JAN ULLRICH ULTRAS.

On the Mike Hosking Breakfast Full Show Podcast for Thursday 19th of December, Heather du Plessis-Allan asks just how bad is our Q3 GDP will be, and whether we'll slip back into a technical recession? High Performance Sport NZ has decided who they're dishing out the funding to – so who are the winners and losers? Kiwi actor and NZ Order of Merit recipient Mark Hadlow is bringing back his stage show 'Middle Aged Man in Lycra', by doing a sequel - ‘Grumpy Old Man in Lycra'. Get the Mike Hosking Breakfast Full Show Podcast every weekday morning on iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Most Kiwis will know the name Mark Hadlow. The NZ Order of Merit recipient is best known internationally for his roles in King Kong and the Hobbit, but he has his fingers in many pies. In 2017, Hadlow had a one man show called MAMIL (Middle Aged Man in Lycra), exploring the male midlife crisis and the way many of them turn to road cycling. The show received rave reviews, touring the country for eight years. Seven years on, Hadlow has created a sequel – GOMIL, standing for Grumpy Old Man in Lycra, premiering in Christchurch in early 2025. He told Heather du Plessis-Allan that it was great being back in the saddle – literally. “The show opens with a big sequence, so it's really interesting getting back on the Pinarello again,” he said. “Oh goodness me, that was fun.” LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mark Hadlow is a legend of New Zealand stage and screen, appearing in blockbusters like King Kong and The Hobbit, and no stranger to Shakespeare. 

More and more, the lines are blurring between our private credit and distressed coverage.In this episode of Cloud 9fin, private credit editor David Brooke mines the reportage of Bianca Boorer, senior distressed debt reporter, and Shubham Saharan, senior private credit reporter. They talk about the challenge Lycra's stakeholders face in navigating the company's balance sheet, and why the company is considering a private credit option, even if it wouldn't provide it with all the liquidity — or should we say elasticity — it needs to tackle its entire capital stack. Do listen in to find out why private credit has the leg(ging) up on the competition!Follow all of 9fin's coverage of the Lycra situation here. If you have any feedback for us, send us a note at podcast@9fin.com. Thanks for listening.

Is traditional joinery antiquated, a safe glue for food items, starter tools for odd jobs, why so much 4/4 lumber in Illinois, and ideas for a special picture frame.

Is traditional joinery antiquated, a safe glue for food items, starter tools for odd jobs, why so much 4/4 lumber in Illinois, and ideas for a special picture frame. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As an extra from our Cycling Central podcast, Christophe Mallet met Nickolas Bird, for his film: "MAMIL: Middle Aged Men in Lycra "

Rebecca and Tori chat about Band Candy. In short, we have a lot of fun with this episode. We discuss Billy Joel, Lycra pants, and the plethora of quotable lines. We debate who is a better choice, Burt Reynolds vs. Tom Selleck? ResourcesTicking clock and cell phone message sound effects from PixabayRolling Stone Buffy the Vampire Slayer episodes ratingsJuice Newton - WikipediaWilly Loman - WikipediaAV Club | Beauty & the Beasts, Homecoming, Band CandyGeekDad | Buffy's LegacyShangel's Reviews: Buffy The Vampire Slayer, "Band Candy" Review (3x06)

In this episode of the EG Property Podcast, EG editor Samantha McClary takes a break from the normal property chatter and instead turns her attention to real estate's love of Lycra, friendly competition and, of course, raising vital fund for charity. Listen in as she catches up with three participants of this year's JLL Property Triathlon – Simon Peacock, Kate Peters and Will Sherlock - to find out how their training has gone, why they choose to don a onesie in front of their colleagues and bosses, and more seriously, what one of the biggest gatherings of real estate professionals achieves for charity. The triathlon – which takes place on 28 June at Dorney Lake –  is in its 17th year and has so far raised more than £2m for charity. For the past three years the event has been raising funds for WWF and by the culmination of this year's races, expects to have raised more than £600,000 for the charity. Find out more about where and how those funds are being spend and what you can do to help encourage our guests as they swim, bike, run their way round Dorney this Friday.

... But he's in a coma. So the town bands together to save Harold's Cafe! Yes, all the people who have jobs. Plus JJ pays a visit to the clink; Terage continues to be a terrible boss to Susan; Krista's drug dealer keeps hassling her number one patron; and Az and Dr Pooper meet the YAHMILS - the Young and Hot Men in Lycra! CJ, Kate and Vaya recap Neighbours Episodes 9040 to 9043 in the PirateNet Studios.Head over to [https://www.patreon.com/neighbuzzpod](https://www.patreon.com/neighbuzzpod) to help us buy the good iced coffee from Anson's Corner.And drop us a line there to ask a question for our new mini pod: Pod Squad Group Chat!Check out @Neighbuzzpod on [TikTok](https://www.tiktok.com/@neighbuzzpod?)!Join the Neighbuzz Council for Neighbours chats on Facebook  Follow NeighbuzzPod on InstagramTweet Kate, Instagram CJ or Vaya New artwork by Elyce Phillips!Brett's Bitts courtesy of Brett Bowman.To support the PirateNet Studios and unlock bonus content, become one of our beloved Patrons at patreon.com/neighbuzzpod Thanks for listening - please tell other spiggin' hufters to listen too!

Send us a Text Message.The NoJetStress Podcast is a traveler wellbeing podcast for frequent business travelers covering health and peak performance on the road as well as to help business travelers maintain optimal health and avoid burnout no matter how much they travel.   Christopher Babayode, a Corporate Travel Wellness Expert shares his insights on Traveler Wellness.This is episode,  Christopher discusses - Go Running Tours a nice to have or business traveller essential?Why the world should be your treadmillWhat LinkedIn in Lycra can do for you!A walk through of the Go Running Tours offeringNew city launches of Go Running Tours and the futureLena's travel routine on the roadYou can subscribe to this podcast by searching 'BusinessTravel360' on Google Podcast, Apple Podcast, iHeart, Pandora, Spotify, Alexa or your favorite podcast player.This podcast was created by Christopher Babayode and distributed by BusinessTravel360.  For more information about NoJetStress, visit us at NoJetStress.comSupport the Show.

Veckans avsnitt börjar lite frostigt när Vivi kastar Carin under bussen angående en efterrätt. Annars är det "jämna plågor" när vi pratar om alla våra ålderskrämpor och Carin har bla fått bestående men efter att ha burit tunga matkassar. Carin har även i veckan glömt bort sin mammas födelsedag och Vivi har gjort en diger lista över vad hon hatar med våren. Dessutom blir det totalsågning av MAMILs.Med: Vivi Wallin & Carin da Silvaviviochcarin.seProduktionsbolag: Polpo Play ABwww.polpoplay.comVill du göra reklam i en Polpo-podd?Maila hello@polpoplay.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ecoutez Le 2ème œil de Philippe Caverivière avec Philippe Caverivière du 03 mai 2024

Ecoutez Le 2ème œil de Philippe Caverivière avec Philippe Caverivière du 03 mai 2024

Here are a few notes to get this podcast rolling. We hope you are reading this. 1) There is some foul language in this podcast. F-bombs abound, in particular, after ~the 45:00 minute mark. 2) The episode is broken into two parts: set 1 and set 2. The first "set" was recorded in late March after a fine day of Sunday skiing in the Wasatch. We recorded the second "set" roughly a month later. The main reason for "set" 2 is to discuss our interaction with another group the following Monday. We set the scene in the pod, but here is the gist: a low-traffic day in a zone with plenty of fresh snow and low-hazard terrain. The one party we encountered up high was less than excited to see us. Pete Vordenberg and I break down the brief interaction.3) Trigger warning: We discuss the merits of some roadkill burritos. 4) Pete Vordenberg is the guest. Pete, or Peter, is a frequent contributor to The High Route. We love having him on board. Our most widely read piece on the site is a story he penned titled "Skiing: A Review." If you haven't read it, please read it. It's a highlight.Vordenberg has a unique perspective on the backcountry scene. For years, he chased the Olympic dream with what we consider success. He made the Olympics as a cross-country skier. He became the head coach of the U.S. Cross Country Ski Team. Yet, for those who know him, Vordenberg seems most at home and peace, far away from the Lycra, deep in the Wasatch, seeking fine turns—which he has been doing for many decades. Thanks for reading and listening. And again, the F-bombs spill forth in the later part of the episode. We'll work on cleaning up the potty language next season. ***Find us at the-high-route.com. Yeah, there are two hyphens for redundancy, which is a good policy in the mountains. For weight weenies, hyphens weigh next to nothing. We are a reader supported website with free podcasts. Our podcasts are not free to produce or store on a server. If you are enjoying the podcasts, please consider supporting The High Route, you can find subscription information here. The theme music for The High Route Podcast comes from Storms in the Hill Country and the album The Self Transforming (Thank you, Jens Langsjoen). You can find a link to the album here—there are so many good songs on this album. And if you think you've spotted a UFO in the past or visited the 7th dimension, "Beautiful Alien" is a good tune to start with.

The 107th Giro d'Italia kicks off on Saturday, promising three weeks of breathtaking climbs, scenic views, and, above all, great racing. In this episode, we'll delve into some iconic moments in Giro history; the first Maglia Rosa, Marco Pantani's legendary attack to Oropa in 1999, Andy Hampsten's epic day on Passo Gavia in 1988, and Castelli's innovations and marketing stunts during the Giro, such as introducing turquoise Lycra shorts and the evolution of cycling jerseys.CHAPTERS00:00 Welcome 01:22 Castelli STRAVA Challenge02:34 Marco Pantani's Legendary Attack To Oropa 199905:57 Passo Gavia 1988, Andy Hampsten's Epic Day08:49 Castelli innovations, First Colored Lycra Shorts 09:42 Castelli innovations, Evolution of Cycling Jersey14:09 Ending – LINKS –Castelli STRAVA ChallengeCastelli Giro d'Italia CollectionHost: ⁠Soren Jensen⁠SEND US YOUR QUESTIONS If you want your questions to be answered on air, be sure to submit your questions by sending us a message on social media or by email to⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcast@castelli-cycling.com⁠________Follow Castelli on social:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram Triathlon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠We're also on⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠STRAVA⁠⁠⁠ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

8th April 2024 The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast EPISODE 350: AA's Think Bike Redux SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles HOST: Carlton Reid GUESTS: Chris Boardman, Jeremy Vine, Edmund King LINKS: https://www.the-spokesmen.com/ https://www.ternbicycles.com https://twitter.com/CarltonReid TRANSCRIPT Carlton Reid 0:12 Welcome to Episode 350 of the Spokesmen cycling podcast. This show was engineered on Monday 8th April 2024. David Bernstein 0:28 The Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you're commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That's t e r n bicycles.com to learn more. Carlton Reid 1:04 I'm Carlton Reid and on today's super short show we hear from Chris Boardman and Jeremy Vine, plugging that from today, the AA is relaunching its 10 year old 'Think Bike' campaign. This nudge-like promo encourages drivers to fit small Think Bike wing-mirror stickers to remind them to look out for those on two wheels. Back in 2014 the AA printed a million of these stickers and distributed them to members promoting the giveaway with a YouTube video featuring a good-looking naked cyclist appearing in wing mirrors demonstrating that if people chose to truly look before manoeuvring, there'll be fewer casualties out there. Did the campaign save any lives? Impossible to prove either way, of course. And some might argue that 10 years down the road the feral attitude towards cyclists in particular from some motorists is worse than ever. But that a motoring organisation is still going out of its way to promote a critical road safety message is something that's to be applauded. The concept for a wing-mirror sticker came from AA patrolman Tony Rich after his friend was killed in a motorcycle crash. The idea was then championed by AA president who's not only an arch motorist but also travels around London on a folding bike. Edmund cycles recreationally, too ... I know that because he often sends me photos of him riding his mountain bike wearing the ipayroadtax Lycra jersey that I sent him ages ago ... So before the sound bites from Chris Boardman and Jeremy Vine here's Edmund King ... Edmund King 3:01 It is now 10 years since we launched our Think Bike sticker campaign. But unfortunately, the message is still as relevant today as it was a decade ago; far too many people are being killed and seriously injured on two wheels, whether cyclists or motorcyclists. So we will be spreading the message again, to all drivers to think bikes. Chris Boardman 3:26 It's hard to believe the Think Bike sticker campaign launched 10 years ago, and I was there when that happened, the idea to make drivers just a little bit more aware of the vulnerable road users around them. Really glad to see that the AA is reinvigorating the campaign. And I'll be glad to join in and help. Jeremy Vine 3:43 And I'm so pleased to see that the AA is doing this because if you're on two wheels, you do feel quite vulnerable. And I always think when you're in a car, and I drive too, you don't always see that that person on the bicycle is a mum, a sister, somebody's son, someone's grandfather, maybe even their great grandfather. So thank you AA for thinking bike. David Bernstein 4:07 This podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you're commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That's t e r n bicycles.com to learn more. This podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern understand that while a large cargo bike can carry oodles of stuff, many of us prefer something a little more manageable. That's why they've come up with the HSD e-cargobike for folks with big aspirations to go car free, delivered in a compact size, with its rear shock, 280 kilos, and a combined hauling capacity of 180 kilos. The robust new HSD is stable and easy to manoeuvre, even when under load. And with its Bosch eBIKE SYSTEM tested and certified to meet the highest UL standards for electric and fire safety you'll be able to share many worryfree adventures with a loved one whether it's your kiddo or Nan. Visit www.ternbicycles. That's t e r n ternbicycles.com to learn more Visit www.ternbicycles. That's t e r n ternbicycles.com to learn more. Carlton Reid 5:06 And that's it for today's show. Thanks for listening to episode 350 of the Spokesmen podcast, brought to you in association with Tern Bicycles. Show notes and more can be found at the-spokesmen.com. The next episode, a rather longer one, will be a chat with cycling writer Andy McGrath, author of God is Dead and other cycling books .... meanwhile get out there and ride ...

Organiser of this weekend's Tweed Ride, Adam Blackwell speaks to Emile Donovan.  

The Spring Rambler, Why Lycra, why not Skinny Jeans? Phantom Super Market trolleys,Burger guilt

In this episode, UNB Tim interviews Jack, also known as Glasgow Lycra, about his love for Lycra and his experiences in the Lycra community. Jack shares his early fascination with Lycra, his first Lycra purchases, and how he discovered the Lycra fetish community on Twitter. He discusses the importance of being open about his fetish in relationships and the positive impact of the Lycra community. Jack also talks about his experiences as a bisexual man and how his dating approach has changed over time. In this conversation, Jack discusses his love for signature suits, a type of lycra bodysuit. He shares the different types of suits he owns and how they have gained popularity online. Jack also provides tips on putting on signature suits, especially for tall individuals. He explains the differences between men's and women's cuts and the challenges of ordering the right size. Additionally, Jack talks about wearing lycra for workouts and his experience taking ballet classes. The conversation concludes with a discussion on what to wear under lycra and where to follow Jack on social media. Takeaways The Lycra fetish community on Twitter has grown and become more accepting, allowing individuals to connect and share their love for Lycra. Being open about the Lycra fetish in relationships is important for finding compatibility and understanding. The Lycra community provides a supportive and positive space for individuals to express themselves and connect with like-minded people. Exploring and embracing one's sexuality, whether it be gay, straight, or bisexual, is a personal journey that should be celebrated and respected. Signature suits, also known as lycra bodysuits, have gained popularity online, especially among men. Putting on a signature suit can be challenging, especially for tall individuals, but using a hairdryer and having a slightly damp body can help with the process. There are different cuts of signature suits, including men's and women's versions, with variations in design and functionality. When ordering signature suits, it's important to check the size charts and consider the differences between men's and women's cuts. Lycra can be worn for workouts, providing comfort and flexibility, and some individuals even wear them for activities like ballet classes. There is no right or wrong choice for what to wear under lycra, with some individuals opting for nothing, while others prefer briefs, jocks, or thongs. Follow Glasgow Lycra https://twitter.com/GlasgowLycra Support UNB For on going support join our Patreon - www.patreon.com/unbblog You can now Join for free.  For one time support  visit our support page - https://www.underwearnewsbriefs.com/about/support-unb/ You can donate by Ko-fi or Paypal  Or buy from the UNB Store - www.unbstore.com  Read more at unbblog.com Follow unb on Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/unbblog Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/unbblog Reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/unbstoreandblog/ Follow Tim Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/unbtim Instagrm - https://www.instagram.com/unbtim BlueSky - https://bsky.app/profile/unbtim.bsky.social

Jack Beighle is our guest on Episode 5 of The Gear Shed Podcast. For those who don't know Jack, here's some background. He's a CU Boulder grad, bumped to Jackson for some post-college living focused around mountains and skiing. He then left Jackson and bumped black to Boulder, where he began working for Backcountry Access. Currently, Jack is the Brand and Community Manager at Ombraz Glasses. More than that, Jack wrote a manifesto. His thoughts and words are a message declaring heavier touring gear is better touring gear. Published in VOL. 1 of the TGR Journal, The Heavyweight Manifesto is razor sharp. Jack makes three suggestions for those obsessed with grams and carbon and minimalist skis better suited for the Lycra set.1. try kale2. do a single squat before starting the winter3. stop complainingNo matter where you stand on issues of gear weight, doing any of the three life-affirming pieces of advice Jack lays down is a good start. (Editor's note: roast the kale with some olive oil and salt—so good.)The interesting thing about the species is we learn and evolve. Maybe the gear you hauled up when you were 22 and spry and fresh off of watching some ski stoke film where the crew reaches a high point with a heli-assist isn't the gear you want when you're a bit older and going deep into the mountain's to drink quietude and find good turns. As he nears 30 years old, Jack is reconsidering his manifesto's hard stance—and he's seeking Gavin and Slator's input for figuring out where he can cut some weight but still enjoy himself on the ups and downs. We also get insight into how Slator and Gavin have evolved their gear preferences. True folks, they are enjoying heavier gear, but not too heavy. In short, the podcast is a lively discussion about how three skiers, two from the light side and one from the heavy side, find some common gear ground in the middle. You can find us at the-high-route.com: Yeah, there are two hyphens for redundancy, which is a good policy in the mountains. And according to Barry Wicks, don't-fear-the-hyphens®.The theme music for The High Route Podcast comes from Storms in the Hill Country and the album The Self Transforming (Thank you, Jens Langsjoen). You can find a link to the album here—there are so many good songs on this album. And if you think you've spotted a UFO in the past or visited the 7th dimension, "Beautiful Alien" is a good tune to begin with.

Welcome to another episode of The Gravel Ride Podcast

Italia: Paese conosciuto in tutto il mondo per cibo, arte, cultura, storia, paesaggi, ma anche per la moda e il cosiddetto “Made in Italy”, che affonda le sue radici negli anni Cinquanta. Ovviamente, una storia così lunga non poteva non avere intriganti curiosità... che scoprirai continuando a leggere! Il Made in Italy: segreti, sorprese e tragedie 1. Com'è nato il mito della Moda Italiana? Il mito della moda italiana risale a una sfilata organizzata il 12 febbraio 1951 dal marchese Giovanni Battista Giorgini nella sua residenza fiorentina, che prende il nome di “First Italian High Fashion Show” . Dieci stilisti italiani presentarono i loro modelli e l'evento fu un tale successo da essere descritto come una bomba che avrebbe scosso i saloni dell'alta moda parigina e minacciato il loro monopolio. Parigi fino a quel momento era infatti considerata l'unica capitale della moda, senza alcun rivale che potesse tenerle testa. 2. Il segreto del successo In che modo però l'Italia è riuscita ad arrivare ai livelli della competizione con la moda francese? Semplice: adottando una filosofia opposta alla sua! L'obiettivo di Giorgini era creare un mercato di vestiti più moderni e allo stesso tempo meno sofisticati, che avessero prezzi più accessibili a tutti. 3. Italia e celebrità Un grande aiuto per promuovere e rendere più popolare la moda del Bel Paese è stato fornito da grandi icone del cinema, tanto italiane quanto straniere. In primis, le italiane Sophia Loren e Gina Lollobrigida, ammirate anche all'estero, poi anche le famosissime Audrey Hepburn, Elizabeth Taylor e Marylin Monroe. Quando loro hanno cominciato a indossare il Made in Italy, in tanti hanno deciso di copiare i loro look e il loro stile, che subito sono stati associati a classe, eleganza, raffinatezza, qualità. 4. Tessuto elasticizzato Uno dei motivi per cui la moda italiana ha riscosso così tanto successo sono state senza dubbio le innovazioni introdotte dai grandi stilisti italiani. Riuscireste ad immaginare la vostra vita senza vestiti elasticizzati? Fino agli anni ‘60 non esistevano tessuti elasticizzati, i primi campioni furono creati da Elio Fiorucci, che mise insieme l'appena inventata Lycra al denim, dando vita ai jeans elasticizzati. Non solo una comodità, ma anche un aiuto ad esaltare il proprio fisico e le proprie curve. 5. Creazione della top model C'è differenza tra una semplice modella e una vera e propria top model. La modella si limita a sfilare, è un quadro bianco dove l'effettivo protagonista del ritratto è il capo di abbigliamento indossato. La top model invece è molto di più di una semplice indossatrice, è la musa che ispira lo stilista a creare l'abito perfetto per lei. Tra le più famose ricordiamo Naomi Campbell, Claudia Schiffer, Cindy Crawford e Carla Bruni. Vi sorprenderà scoprire che la figura della top model è stata inventata proprio da un italiano negli anni ‘90, il grandissimo Gianni Versace. 6. Caso Versace Proprio Gianni Versace, grande icona della moda italiana, ha fatto una fine tragica. Gianni Versace è stato assassinato davanti alla sua villa di Miami da un giovane di 23 anni, Andrew Cunanan, serial killer all'apice di un delirio omicida durato 90 giorni. La polizia ha inizialmente archiviato il caso come un suicidio e l'eredità del brand è passata alla sorella minore Donatella Versace. Se la vicenda vi incuriosisce, potete dare un'occhiata alla serie tv “The Assassination of Gianni Versace: American Crime Story”, basata sugli eventi. 7. Caso Gucci Altro re della moda italiana la cui storia si conclude in cronaca nera è Maurizio Gucci. Lui è stato ucciso a Milano la mattina del 27 marzo 1995, per mano di un sicario. Ingaggiato da chi? Niente meno che dalla sua ex moglie Patrizia Reggiani, condannata a 29 anni di carcere insieme a complici ed esecutori nonostante non abbia mai confessato il suo ruolo nel delitto in tribunale.

This week Kat and Marianne reveal the things you'd like to permanently banish - gilet-wearers beware. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lewis of Outside Intel came on the pod to talk about his will-they-wont-they relationship with the outdoors. From selling his gear, to buying it all back and more. Hope you all enjoy the chat. New episodes definitely coming soon... for sure...

This week we dive into the world of titanium frame building with Brad Bingham. Based in the Steamboat Springs, Colorado, Brad has been crafting custom frames for an impressive 27 years. Starting his journey as a welding enthusiast in high school, Brad's passion for making things led him to the art of bike building. But his skills go beyond frames – he even built his own home with the help of his retired custom home builder father. In this episode, Brad reveals the importance of learning how to do things for oneself and consulting experts. He shares his experience working for a dental equipment manufacturer before diving headfirst into the world of bikes. From working at renowned bike manufacturer Moots to eventually taking over Kent Erickson Cycles, Brad's journey is a testament to his dedication and expertise. Brad and our host, Randall Jacobs, delve into the nitty-gritty details of bike design. They discuss everything from tube selection and mitering to the impact of weight bias and alignment. Brad's deep knowledge of geometry, materials, and manufacturing processes makes this episode a must-listen for any bike enthusiast or aspiring frame builder. But what sets Brad apart from the rest? Well, his attention to detail and commitment to customer satisfaction are second to none. As the owner of Bingham Built Bikes, he prioritizes open communication and mutual respect. With his wife, Hannah, by his side, they handle everything from bike design and production to backend operations. Their tiny operation may be limited in size, but it's big on passion and craftsmanship. Binghm Built Bicycles Website Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So I'm, I'm Brad Bingham. I'm, uh, based out of Steamboat Springs, Colorado, and I'm a custom titanium frame builder. Uh, been doing that here in Colorado for, gosh, going on what, 27 years? [00:00:17]Randall Jacobs (host): Wow. 20, 27 years, [00:00:20]Brad Bingham: Correct. Yep. [00:00:21]Randall Jacobs (host): you don't look, you started welding when you were like eight. [00:00:27]Brad Bingham: Uh, no. I, I really started welding in earnest, um, senior in high school. I. [00:00:35]Randall Jacobs (host): No kidding. [00:00:36]Brad Bingham: And then, yeah, I moved here to, to Steamboat right after I turned 20. And [00:00:41]Randall Jacobs (host): so me about those first welding experiences. How'd you get into it? Was it starting with bikes or was it, uh, a general, was it a vocational program? What was the nature of [00:00:51]Brad Bingham: it, it was very bike centric, so I, I knew that I wanted to construct bike frames, uh, mountain bikes specifically. And to do that, I needed to know how to, you know, join two tubes together. And at the time, I mean, I was 18 years old and didn't have any welding experience whatsoever. So I went and took a, uh, evening like, uh, community college TIG welding course. It was like a 75 hour course and took that in the, in the evenings after work. Um, And I walked in there with a couple of parted off pieces of Reynolds bike tubing and I said, I just need to know how to put these two things together. [00:01:40]Randall Jacobs (host): And so this is really, I mean, this has been your path in life since [00:01:45]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm. [00:01:45]Randall Jacobs (host): beginning. [00:01:46]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm. [00:01:46]Randall Jacobs (host): Um, that's, uh, it seems like an increasingly rare phenomenon to have such clarity at a young age at what you wanna do and then to go out and do it. So, uh, good on you. Some of us, some of us, it takes a lot longer. [00:01:58]Brad Bingham: Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was always really passionate about making things. I, I just always needed to be making something or working on something. And luckily the bikes found me, you know, 'cause I was a rider and, um, the idea of building bikes was, you know, not, not anything that crossed my mind until a good friend of mine said, well, why don't you just build your own. And that was, that was the genesis. [00:02:31]Randall Jacobs (host): So, and we were just talking a moment ago, I, I, I was apologizing for the, the state of affairs in my house. 'cause I'm in the process of building a new house around the husk of a, of a old derelict, but, but lovely, uh, home that I just purchased. And you mentioned you built your home as well. So tell me a little bit about that. I'm kind of curious about this builder mentality, [00:02:53]Brad Bingham: yeah. So yeah, I did not, you know, obviously I did not build the entire home myself. Um, my dad was a, um, was a custom home builder for 25 years, and so he was retired at the time, and this was 2000, like 2002 to 2004. Um, he had just recently finished a home helping out my sister build, build a home in Bend, Oregon. And so about a, uh, about a year, year and a half after that, Um, I talked him into coming out here and, and helping me build a home. So it was a big, big project, but really, he, I have to say he did at least 80, 85% of the heavy lifting. Like, yeah, I mean, he was, he was amazing. He's, he passed away in 2008. Um, but he was just a super smart guy and really good at building homes and being efficient, not wasting materials. Um, you know, I was a, I was working for Moots at the time. Didn't have a huge salary or anything. It's not like I was a rich guy. We were really trying to build it as inexpensively as possible. [00:04:11]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. Well, and I think, um, granted, sounds like your father was far more expert than mine, but we share that. Um, my, my father passed in oh seven and I didn't get to build a home with him, but I did get to work on, um, a couple of properties that, um, uh, he had, uh, my parents had purchased with, um, a aunt and uncle. And these properties were always underwater and always, you know, falling apart. And they'd never had the budget to do, you know, to hire out. And so it's just like, all right, we need to figure this out. And that's how I learned. You know, one of the key ways that I learned how to use tools, how to do things for myself, and there's a certain, um, there's a certain sense of, um, one personal responsibility and also with that personal, um, uh, competence and confidence that goes with learning from a young age to do things like, you don't need to hire an expert. You can consult experts. Maybe sometimes you do, but you can learn this. So that's, uh, that would seem to have carried into, uh, a lot of things in, in, uh, in what you've done starting at age 20 welding frames [00:05:21]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. And prior to that I was, you know, I was always on my dad's job sites, um, mostly cleaning up, you know? Um, [00:05:31]Randall Jacobs (host): as, as one does, and at when you're a grunt. [00:05:34]Brad Bingham: yep, yep. But, but yeah, you do learn a lot and yeah. Good stuff. Mm-hmm. [00:05:41]Randall Jacobs (host): Um, so tell me, so you mentioned you, you take this course, right? You're, you're in high school or just outta high school, and you go to work for Moots right after. How'd that come about? [00:05:51]Brad Bingham: No, I was, uh, I had the opportunity in high school to be part of a cooperative work experience, uh, with the world's largest dental equipment manufacturer. So I worked, I worked in their engineering department, um, really as a drafts person, uh, um, junior, senior year in high school. And then that carried over into, after high school. Um, I was not a, you know, there was a lot of, a lot of life things that, that kind of slowed me down from going to college. Um, my mom was recovering from some pretty harsh cancer and I wasn't really excited to, to leave her. My parents were recently divorced, like, you know, all these things kind of piled up to me staying, staying in my hometown for a year after high school. And I continued to work, uh, in that engineering department. Kind of the, the, uh, path would've been to go into mechanical engineering from there. But I, I kind of looked around and I was like, I don't think this is, for me, I just, you know, I don't wanna just be kind of a cog and cog in the wheel, you know, cog in the machine. Um, I wanted to have a, you know, more greater grasp, more of the whole scope of projects. Um, and that's, you know, bike, bike building allows you to do that. [00:07:18]Randall Jacobs (host): Well, for, for better or for worse, in a lot of regards, especially in the beginning when you're trying to get off the ground, [00:07:24]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm. [00:07:25]Randall Jacobs (host): it's the product, it's the business, it's the marketing. And which is really just another way of saying how do you communicate, how do you build awareness? How do you connect with people? Um, So, so then, you know, walk us through kind of what, what that journey looks like. [00:07:40]Brad Bingham: So, you know, it's, it's funny, I, uh, I, like I said, you know, A gentleman that I worked with, uh, who was a really good friend, uh, at the dental, Manu dental equipment manufacturer. Um, he ended up becoming, you know, years later he was director of engineering. Uh, this is a big major company, like 1200 employees on site, um, major manufacturing capabilities right there in my hometown, which is just outside of Portland, Oregon. [00:08:12]Randall Jacobs (host): and what, um, what types of products [00:08:15]Brad Bingham: oh, uh, [00:08:16]Randall Jacobs (host): ha have I had your products in my mouth at some point? [00:08:19]Brad Bingham: uh, maybe not in your, maybe not literally in your mouth, but, but potentially actually, yeah, you probably have like the, uh, you know, the little suction wand that, uh, goes in your mouth while you're at the dentist. Yeah. I mean, they [00:08:32]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah. [00:08:33]Brad Bingham: they even produced that. So the company was a. [00:08:36]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay. [00:08:37]Brad Bingham: You walk into, you walk, walk into certain dental offices, and you'll see that every single piece in that office, it's me, sorry, is uh, every single piece has adec on it. Literally from the chair that you're sitting on to the cabinets, literally everything. [00:09:00]Randall Jacobs (host): So what I'm hearing is here you are, this, this young kid in, in, in high school, just outta high school. You get this, this opportunity to work in a very large, uh, organization in with, you know, seasoned professionals doing, you know, medical products at a whole nother layer, um, of complexity in terms of design and development and supply chain and things like that. And so you're dealing with that sort of thing. Um, and that was kind of your jumping off point. [00:09:30]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. And I, um, I got into the bike building thing because my buddy that I, I rode with, I broke a couple of cannondale and he said, why don't you just make, why don't you just make your own? [00:09:43]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:09:44]Brad Bingham: so of course I did. And it kind of spiraled, you know, I was in his garage late every single night machining something. And, uh, you know, kind of once I built that first bike, it was a really great experience, but I was kind of like, well, what's, what's next in this? And then he said, why don't make one outta titanium? And, uh, so I went and took the United Bicycle Institute Titanium Frame Building course in 1996. Um, and it was taught by Gary Helfrich, uh, who is one of the, one of the founders of Merlin. [00:10:21]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:10:22]Brad Bingham: So, uh, yeah, through that process, moots got ahold of my name and. I got asked to come out to Colorado to interview for a welding position, and you know, as soon as they offered it to me, I took it. And kind of the, you know, the rest is, is history. And, you know, I did feel like that was a wonderful opportunity I got out here and I kind of initially thought to myself like, okay, I'll, I'll do a year out here, figure it out, and then I'll get back to Oregon and I'll start my own brand. [00:10:59]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:10:59]Brad Bingham: But I got out to Colorado and it's like, wow, I'm, I'm not gonna go home and build better bikes than this. And, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna go step, step away and just immediately be building better bikes. That's not gonna happen. Um, and I fell in love with, with Colorado and the, the stoke that people have here. [00:11:24]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:11:24]Brad Bingham: So, [00:11:25]Randall Jacobs (host): And what, what is it about, you know, what was it about working at Moots that was particularly special for you, and like, who were some of your mentors? You know, what, what'd you learn there? [00:11:35]Brad Bingham: Well, it, it was a opportunity to work from the, the very bottom, you know, the very bottom to the very top kind of. And so I was able to experience, you know, every, every part of manufacturing while I was there, every, every part of manufacturing, a bicycle frame from titanium. Uh, so I started out welding, but pretty, I did that pretty solid for, uh, five years, five, six years, you know, tons and tons of welding. But while at that time, Kent Erickson was still, um, employed by Moots, and so even in those first few years I was helping, you know, Kent never used a computer. I brought some CAD skills with me, and so pretty quickly I was involved in design work and any little part he wanted to get machined, you know, we needed to do a drawing and I was a drafts person so I could create an engineering, you know, a print, uh, that somebody could read and manufacture it really easily. So, um, with a, with a lot of those skills that I brought, I was able to evolve at moots. You know, I, I look back on it and I think, oh, it, you know, happened pretty quick, but, but really it took a, took a number of years and by 2004, um, I was the production manager at Moots and managing, you know, the flow of the flow of products through the, through the factory. And, um, at the time it was about, I think it was about 14 or 16 guys and gals that were making the bikes. So, um, You know, and then designing all the bikes after Kent left. Um, and I was, uh, designing tooling and, you know, as new specifications came out, we would incorporate those into the bikes and yeah, just making it all happen. And then, uh, yeah, I finally, finally got tired of the, the high volume, you know, it just got, it got really, really big and I was, no, I was then just, like I said, kind of a cog in the machine. And, um, and then not long after my dad passed away, I kind of felt like it was time to make a change. [00:14:09]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, that'll, that'll definitely catalyze some, some serious self-reflection for sure. Um, uh, I think in my case as well, when my, when my dad got sick, um, you know, he, he had a, in my dad's case, it was a, a brain tumor. So as a type that you usually don't, uh, get more than like 6, 8, 10 months from, um, and from then it was like, okay, I moved back, moved back home, um, and resolve like, okay, what are the things that I would like to have done if I were on my deathbed and that I would like to do and share with my father while he's still around and like, you know, shifted my whole life trajectory. [00:14:51]Brad Bingham: Sure. [00:14:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:14:52]Brad Bingham: Yeah. [00:14:53]Randall Jacobs (host): So, [00:14:54]Brad Bingham: I, yeah, I hope, did you get the, did you get the six or eight, 10 months with 'em? [00:14:59]Randall Jacobs (host): uh, yeah, he, he lasted about eight months or so. He passed, uh, about 10, 10 days before his 50th and my 25th birthdays. We shared the same birthday. And, um, it was, I wanted to, I wanted to land a big account in the company I was working with. I wanted to, um, get into a good grad school, and I wanted to get my pro upgrade as a racer. And I got two, two of the three before he passed. And then, uh, I had a, a good season, uh, later on, uh, the, the, the following year and, uh, was a, a Pac fodder pro for a hot minute. [00:15:39]Brad Bingham: Gotcha. [00:15:40]Randall Jacobs (host): again, like that, that reckoning of seeing, seeing a, you know, a parental figure and someone that I admired and learned a lot from, you know, I. Towards the end of life, it maybe reflect a lot on, on what I wanna do with my own. [00:15:52]Brad Bingham: Yeah. [00:15:54]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, [00:15:54]Brad Bingham: Yeah. 50 is, 50 is way too young. [00:15:58]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah. [00:15:59]Brad Bingham: Way too young. I, my dad was 63 when he passed away, [00:16:02]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:16:03]Brad Bingham: felt way too young. [00:16:06]Randall Jacobs (host): I think it is never a good age to lose a parent. Like it, it just brings with it different challenges. Like when, when you're a child, it, it's like you, you need that parental figure to help guide you through life when you're going through your, your twenties or so, you try to discover yourself and that guidance can be helpful if you're in your forties or fifties. I haven't had that experience though. I will. Uh, my mother's still around and still healthy, but, you know, then it's like you're confronting your own mortality. Uh, so part, part of the cycle of life. [00:16:36]Brad Bingham: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. [00:16:40]Randall Jacobs (host): So, so your dad, your dad passes, you decide it's time. So what'd that process look like? [00:16:48]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So, um, I chose to, yeah, I chose to leave the job I'd been in for 15 years and, um, you know, they were, moots was a, they were a little surprised by it because I had been there for so long and, um, you know, at the time I was, I was playing a pretty integral. Um, so I, I went to part-time for, you know, I gave them a healthy notice and went to part-time and then, you know, finally trailed off. Um, and that was spring-ish of 2012, and I had no, I had no plans. I had bought a airstream, uh, to renovate, so I did a, like a shell off restoration on a 1973 Airstream and, [00:17:44]Randall Jacobs (host): off renovation. So like you pulled the shell off the chassis. Sandblasted the chassis. [00:17:51]Brad Bingham: exactly. [00:17:52]Randall Jacobs (host): All right. This, this, we need, we need to do a tangent on this 'cause I, I also did a, um, uh, a camper build at one point. So tell me about this Airstream. I'm super curious. [00:18:00]Brad Bingham: what, what was the camper you did? [00:18:03]Randall Jacobs (host): Um, mine, mine, I built out of a 15 foot vno motorcycle trailer. 'cause I had a, I had a Honda Element, which is a four cylinder, um, boxy, little, little adventure mobile that I wanted to, you know, use as a, you know, I wanted to be able to tow around the country. So I built this ultra light, um, largely self-sustaining kind of off-grid trailer, you know, solar thin film, solar on the roof and water recycling for the toilet and all the other stuff. And yeah, it was, it was an experience. [00:18:34]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, mine was, uh, it was my brother-in-law's folks up in Montana. I was up in Montana in 2011 for, uh, like a, a US Cup mountain bike race, [00:18:51]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:18:52]Brad Bingham: in, up in Missoula and, [00:18:54]Randall Jacobs (host): What, what year is this? [00:18:56]Brad Bingham: 2011. [00:18:57]Randall Jacobs (host): 2011. Okay. So this is towards the tail end. I, I did the, the, um, when it was the Kenda Cup. I don't know if they were still sponsoring. It's like Show Air was a shipping logistics company that was sponsoring, this is like oh 8, 0 9, maybe 2010. So I think maybe the tail end. [00:19:14]Brad Bingham: Yeah, that sounds right. I don't even know if Kenda and Sho were still involved. Like, I, I raced like the, um, like 2010 I think I was doing like the, like Sand Dimas and Fontana. [00:19:28]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep. I did those races. [00:19:30]Brad Bingham: Yep. Did you do [00:19:31]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay. So, so, so you were a, uh, you were a private tier pro as well, or are we on a team or, [00:19:36]Brad Bingham: Yeah, I was, you know, it was moots. [00:19:39]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah. [00:19:39]Brad Bingham: I was riding to Moots and just having, just having fun with it. [00:19:44]Randall Jacobs (host): What, what years did you race? I wonder if we actually lined up next to each other [00:19:48]Brad Bingham: well I raced, I raced pretty hard like nine, 10. [00:19:56]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, same you do. Sea otter. [00:19:59]Brad Bingham: Uh, oh gosh. I don't think I did sea otter until like 2016. [00:20:06]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay. [00:20:07]Brad Bingham: My, um, yeah, my, my pro mountain bike racing, it got, got sidetracked by two hip surgeries. [00:20:19]Randall Jacobs (host): Oof. [00:20:20]Brad Bingham: So I'm trying to remember how hard I went in 2011. I feel like. Oh, yeah, yeah, [00:20:28]Randall Jacobs (host): I had, I had already retired by that [00:20:30]Brad Bingham: yeah, yeah, [00:20:30]Randall Jacobs (host): I was like, okay, I've got way too much student loan debt to be living outta my car, you know, spending money to be a professional athlete. [00:20:40]Brad Bingham: yeah. So I had, um, my, my major injury, um, I tore the labrum, tore the labrum in my hip, um, which turns out was a, it was a genetic issue. Um, [00:20:56]Randall Jacobs (host): Interesting. It's just weak in some way, or there's some sort of, [00:20:59]Brad Bingham: of, shape of the femur. [00:21:01]Randall Jacobs (host): okay. My sister did the same thing and she had had to have her shaved. Did you have the, the shaving surgery or did you tear it right through? [00:21:08]Brad Bingham: The shaving. Yep. Same. Yep. So [00:21:14]Randall Jacobs (host): same thing on the other side. [00:21:15]Brad Bingham: correct both sides. Yep. I identical. So that ended up, um, the pain was pretty bad and kind of set me back in 2012. Um, and I prepped myself for surgery at the Steadman Clinic down in Vail, um, and had surgery in on the right leg or the right hip, uh, like February of 2013. And then I had my left one done July of 2013. So 2013 was kind of a throwaway year and, you know, I don't mean that entirely. It was, it was a great year. But, um, [00:21:58]Randall Jacobs (host): In in terms of competing at the highest level in athletics of any sort. Yeah. That, that makes sense. [00:22:06]Brad Bingham: But then I came back, I came back really hard 2014 and like just once I had the go ahead and I was, I had a wonderful physical therapist and I was just getting after it hard. And so at that time also I was working for Kent Erickson and he was like, you know, all about it. Like, yeah, go, go do it. Go go get it while you can, kind of. And uh, [00:22:33]Randall Jacobs (host): not something you do in your forties unless you're, uh, or fifties. Unless you're what? Tinker or, um, uh, Ned. Ned [00:22:42]Brad Bingham: I went like, so 2014 I kind of got myself back in, back in race shape and did things like Breck Epic, um, if you're familiar with that. [00:22:54]Randall Jacobs (host): I am, I got some friends who are doing it this year. I hear it's phenomenal. [00:22:57]Brad Bingham: And uh, yeah, did about a bunch of mountain biking and then I kept ramping it up until about, uh, 2017. So, yeah, it went pretty hard. 'cause my wife was, was racing cross country as well. And so it was something we did together, you know, and I would throw in road races and then, and, and whatever. [00:23:20]Randall Jacobs (host): I was gonna say that that makes a lot of sense that, uh, it was something you shared because otherwise, I mean, you're, you're on the road all the time and it's really hard to be on the road with like, as a, as a partner, be on the road with your partner who's out racing all the time and, you know, [00:23:39]Brad Bingham: yeah, [00:23:40]Randall Jacobs (host): camping at different places or, you know, subletting or, or doing whatever it takes, you know, sleeping on sofas, wherever. [00:23:47]Brad Bingham: yeah, yeah. And, uh, like, so 2016, I turned 40 in the fall, so my goal was to do 40 races before I turned 40 that year. [00:24:01]Randall Jacobs (host): Geez, [00:24:03]Brad Bingham: So [00:24:03]Randall Jacobs (host): that's, uh, that's impressive. I just turned 40 and I, I don't have a, I don't think I have a single race in me right now. [00:24:10]Brad Bingham: Yeah, that's alright. That's alright. [00:24:13]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:24:15]Brad Bingham: So, yeah. Anyways. Um, but all the way back to the Airstream. Yeah. [00:24:20]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:24:21]Brad Bingham: Fun project, you know, kind of kept me occupied. Um, as I le after I had left Moots. It, uh, definitely kept me occupied for a good few months [00:24:33]Randall Jacobs (host): And did you tow that around, um, with your wife, train, you know, training and racing everywhere, or, or were we, you just living in it? [00:24:40]Brad Bingham: it was a project. Like it took a, took a long time to get it even to where it is today, which is, I'd call it, I'd call it 90% done. I mean, it's, it's one of those things [00:24:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay, good. Good enough where your motivation is, uh, less than. [00:24:58]Brad Bingham: Yes, it's [00:24:59]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:00]Brad Bingham: Yes. And, but I. [00:25:03]Randall Jacobs (host): I think, I think that's part of the danger, the dangerous spot that I'm in. 'cause I, I also am like comfortable enough and I got other priorities, but gotta keep things moving along. [00:25:12]Brad Bingham: yeah. [00:25:13]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:25:15]Brad Bingham: So, yeah. But, uh, anyway, I didn't have any, I didn't have any plans to start, you know, to, I had no plans to be building bikes after I left Moots. I just wasn't, I just was like, I'm okay with taking some time and figuring out whatever the heck happens. And, uh, and then Ken Erickson, who had left Moots, uh, in 2005, he, he had been doing his thing for a while and he reached out and said, Hey, how about, how about you come back to me? And, uh, with the intention that you take over the business? So, [00:25:53]Randall Jacobs (host): All right. [00:25:55]Brad Bingham: so [00:25:55]Randall Jacobs (host): Wait, so this is, this is his independent business? [00:25:59]Brad Bingham: Correct. Yeah, he started Kent Erickson cycles about a year, a about a year, year and a half after he left Moots, so 2006. So, um, he'd been going for about yeah. Six, seven years. [00:26:16]Randall Jacobs (host): And is he a few years your senior? [00:26:19]Brad Bingham: Uh, yeah. [00:26:20]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. So, so he is, he's been at it, he's been at a long time. [00:26:26]Brad Bingham: Oh, [00:26:26]Randall Jacobs (host): And when did the, how long did you work together before he started to kind of transition outta the business? [00:26:33]Brad Bingham: Uh, so from, it would've been late, late 2012, um, until the late 2016. So four years that, uh, till we bought the business. And then, and then he was on board working for about 18 months afterwards. [00:26:53]Randall Jacobs (host): wow. [00:26:54]Brad Bingham: five and a half years. Yeah. [00:26:55]Randall Jacobs (host): That's really cool. That's like quite, quite narc to have worked together in a different business. Have him leave and then have you kind of take on his thing and have him supporting you in that role. Uh, that sounds really beautiful. [00:27:07]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. He and I, we have a, like, we have a good relationship. I don't spend very much time with him because he does tend to kind of hermit himself up on, on his property and he just, you know, he's, he has a beautiful piece of property up in the mountains and it's like, you know, his slice of heaven, like he doesn't need to go anywhere. Um, but to see him some pretty much gotta go up there. [00:27:33]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:35]Brad Bingham: um, but yeah, but our working relationship is super good. Like really loved. The time we worked together is very much a lot of back and forth and a lot of mutual respect. And, um, neither of us really got upset with like, criticisms, you know? I mean, we were just really open. So it was nice. [00:28:00]Randall Jacobs (host): And you, you said, um, we bought the business and I, I know that I, I spoke together with my colleague, Sam, with your wife, um, initially before chatting with you. So, uh, you know, share a bit about, about her and, and how the two of you work together and so on. [00:28:17]Brad Bingham: sure. And actually, I mean, I, I, I kind of misspoke because technically it's only myself that owns the business, [00:28:26]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:28:26]Brad Bingham: but we were together are together, um, in everything that we do there. So, um, it feels like, you know, it feels like we bought it. [00:28:38]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:28:39]Brad Bingham: but yeah, so, um, so yeah, Hannah and I have been, uh, been together since 2010, like late 2010. And, um, you know, just a, just a fun like athletic. You know, athletic based relationship because we, you know, she was a runner at the time we met, and I was kind of ki I was kind of like still enjoying some running, like I did my first mar marathon with her and, um, my first and only wait, I should, I should had that, um, [00:29:17]Randall Jacobs (host): that's more, that's more than many cyclists. Many cyclists will do. Most cyclists, I don't even know. Uh, a lot of cyclists I know will joke that they don't know how to run. So doing a single marathon is, is not bad. [00:29:30]Brad Bingham: So, so yeah, we had never, we had actually, you know, we'd never worked together. But with this idea of me taking over the business, um, I really wanted somebody there that I, that I could trust to run the books. I knew that that would take such a burden off of me. [00:29:51]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:29:52]Brad Bingham: um, so we, we agreed that, um, that that's how we would do it, and it's worked out really well. Um, and yeah, yeah, she, she has a, she had been working in some other outdoor, um, some other outdoor companies that are located in Steamboat Springs. Um, she'd been doing bookkeeping and accounting for those companies, so she was, well, well versed and ready to take it on. Um, and [00:30:23]Randall Jacobs (host): And, uh, [00:30:24]Brad Bingham: mm-hmm. [00:30:25]Randall Jacobs (host): oh, go ahead. [00:30:26]Brad Bingham: Oh, and she also, like, she, you know, makes the website happen, makes the web store happen, keeps all the backend stuff going. So [00:30:35]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:30:36]Brad Bingham: you know, it's a, it's a huge component to the business. Um, I'm sure [00:30:41]Randall Jacobs (host): Oh yeah. [00:30:41]Brad Bingham: as you know, um, it really allows me to draw some, to draw some lines of things that I work on and things that I don't work on. [00:30:51]Randall Jacobs (host): I mean, it's, it's exhausting Otherwise, uh, you know, especially like early days when, when, if it's, if it's just one person or just two people and everyone's doing everything, uh, I mean, I, it works for some people, but it definitely constrained scale. And it also means that there's a lot of context switching from, you know, now I wanna focus on products, but you know, now I have to do a whole bunch of customer service emails and then, you know, I need to do some, some marketing outreach and, oh, you know, uh, have we paid that bill yet? [00:31:24]Brad Bingham: Yep. Yep. [00:31:25]Randall Jacobs (host): Uh, [00:31:26]Brad Bingham: But, but, but we're tiny, you know, we're a tiny little operation, so [00:31:31]Randall Jacobs (host): it, it's the two of you. [00:31:33]Brad Bingham: it's the two of us and one employee. [00:31:35]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay. [00:31:37]Brad Bingham: Yep. [00:31:37]Randall Jacobs (host): And, and what is your, uh, what's your other team member doing? [00:31:41]Brad Bingham: So Ed, ed is our, our third man, and, uh, he's like, does all of the final, final assemblies. So, uh, you know, complete, complete build outs. Um, he is, uh, he's a veteran of the bike world. Uh, he used to own one of the bike shops here in downtown Steamboat. Uh, he's a certified motorcycle mechanic. Uh, um, so he's just, he's just awesome, super, super diverse. So he builds, he builds all of my wheels, like I said, does the final assemblies. He kind of manages the, the web orders and ships product based on those incoming web orders. Um, and then, and then he's also in production. So he's, uh, does all the finish work on the frames. Uh, that's like bead blasting and polishing, you know, brushing what everything that kind of takes place after I weld it, [00:32:46]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:32:47]Brad Bingham: you will. Um, and then [00:32:49]Randall Jacobs (host): so you're doing the tube selection, mitering and all the upstream up there, is that right? [00:32:55]Brad Bingham: correct. Yeah. [00:32:56]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:32:57]Brad Bingham: Yep. And then he has, oh yeah, yeah, exactly. So he has some, uh, you know, some machining, some other machining roles as well. But those are like, it's, it's really funny just how they fall into the production process. 'cause like he, like I, it's like we always need something. There's always something to be done, [00:33:24]Randall Jacobs (host): So what's the, what's the process like? Like say, you know, one of our listeners, um, was looking to get a custom bike, uh, built with you. How does that, how does the communication work? How's, what's the, the process you take them through? [00:33:37]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So typically they reach out, excuse me. Typically they reach out through the, the website and then the conversation starts. Um, we have a pretty basic. Kind of intake form, if you will, uh, fit form. And we start with that. Uh, that does have a lot of, uh, a lot of measurements that they can provide, uh, if I were to be creating the fit based on those measurements. But what I am seeing more and more is that clients are coming with a fit, you know, most often a retool fit, [00:34:14]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep. Same. [00:34:15]Brad Bingham: totally dialed. Yep. And so then the, depending on our workload, uh, you know, sometimes we have to delay, um, the conversation because I've just got too many clients currently that I'm working with, [00:34:33]Randall Jacobs (host): It's a good, good problem to have. [00:34:35]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. Generally it's a good problem. Yeah. So, um, but we start the conversation, you know, again, every, every client is a little bit different. Nothing. No scenario is exactly the same, but, um, most often we create a, create an estimate for the build out that they're looking for. Um, you know, if, if it's a complete build, of course they wanna see what that's gonna look like. Um, so we provide, we provide estimates, uh, with no, um, you know, with no deposit, no, no obligation to purchase. Um, we want them to see, you know, where, how they're spending their money. Um, once they're satisfied that like the pro that things look good, um, then we take a deposit and then we really dive into the design work. Um, try to avoid putting in a lot of front end design work with no, um, you know, with no obligation. I. [00:35:41]Randall Jacobs (host): Sure. And I mean, you can get, you can go pretty far in kind of teasing out high level, a high level understanding of what the rider needs. And also I. They can get a real sense of whether, you know, whether it's going to be the right match for them, you know, with those initial conversations. So that totally makes sense. And then when you are, when you are looking at like, okay, so what are the different, walk us through like the different parameters of frame design for a particular rider. What, what are the, the different levers that you can pull? And then what information are you teasing out from the rider, either through that fit info or those conversations to, to determine, you know, how that bike gets created? [00:36:20]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So I mean, you wanna, you wanna get kind of deep [00:36:24]Randall Jacobs (host): Oh yeah. Let's go, let's go. Full nerd. Uh, so I, I think I shared with you previously, like I had, you know, did a two episode, uh, conversation with Craig Calie that was got into boron infused resin and like, you know, I think Josh Porter and I were talking about. The creation of CAD tools for modeling a spinning wheel. Uh, so we, we can go as, we can go as nerdy as we like. So yeah, give give us, give us the full nerd version. [00:36:52]Brad Bingham: Well, since we're on the gravel ride, um, you know, let's talk or let's talk a little bit around a gravel bike. Um, but when there's, you know, so for example, a lot of my clients do tend to be like, you know, their, their experience riders of a certain age, let's say. So a lot of those fits, you know, they, they are changing. Um, so, you know, you really want to look at all of the parameters and, you know, weight bias, rear wheel, front wheel is a biggie. Uh, so you kinda identify that pretty, pretty quickly. You know, you can adjust that of course, by front center and stem length. I. Um, to achieve a weight bias that you're, that you're happy with. But, you know, generally speaking, um, you want to, um, with those more upright positions, you know, you want to have increased trail, you want to have a longer front center. Um, you want, you know, if you're, because if you're gonna, if you're gonna have a short stem, you want higher trail. [00:38:10]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, because you're effectively without all else equal on the trail side, you're speeding up the, the ratio of, of, uh, you know, less input for the same amount of output when you go with a shorter stem. Less stability. Yeah. [00:38:26]Brad Bingham: Yeah. And, and then depending on, you know, what, what you've done with the, like chainstay length and the rear wheel weight bias, you know, that. Quickly lightens the front end. Um, so you got, you need to be, yeah, you need to be careful there. Um, so yeah, and it's like every rider is different. If you're more aggressive and, you know, racy on the gravel bike, then yeah, you might be looking for a, um, you know, for a longer stem, more weight on the front contact, front contact patch, um, [00:39:08]Randall Jacobs (host): Potentially less, less frontal area in a, in a more kind of, you know, locomotive type position for long flats and things like that as well. [00:39:18]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:19]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:39:20]Brad Bingham: Absolutely. Um, you know, a lot of those things, a lot of those changes do end up being perception and not, not all that much reality. The, the frontal area. Yeah, it's huge, [00:39:37]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:39:38]Brad Bingham: But wheel base doesn't, you know, if a shorter wheel base is gonna be perceived as quick, oh, this is fast, right? But no, it's not, you're not going any faster because [00:39:55]Randall Jacobs (host): Sure. Yeah. It's the, the sensation of speed and, and responsiveness, which, you know, another, the flip side of the same coin is twitchiness, right? Whether it's responsive or twitchy is depends on who you are and whether you've crossed the line from one to the other. [00:40:11]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. So, but in the custom world, you know, in the custom world it's nice 'cause you have all of the levers to pull. You can do, you can do anything with it, which is, which is wonderful. Um, because I do see a lot of pretty odd or out of the norm cockpits and, and you really want to give them an experience. You wanna create a bike underneath them that just feels right. Like, wow, this, this is comfortable. I mean, it's, you know, a longer wheel base on a gravel bike is really much more comfortable, uh, for the long haul. If you, you know, especially if you're an older rider, um, those, you know, the frequency of, of bumps, you know, washboards, you can, you can change that drastically, uh, with a slightly longer wheel base. [00:41:05]Randall Jacobs (host): Tell me more about that. How does that actually work? [00:41:07]Brad Bingham: Well, because you have the slacker head angle, which [00:41:11]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:41:12]Brad Bingham: inherently allows the fork to flex a little more. [00:41:18]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay. [00:41:18]Brad Bingham: Right? And then, and then the, the longer wheel base, you know, um, just geometrically it, it doesn't have to, the, the angle of change. Is lessened [00:41:33]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay, [00:41:34]Brad Bingham: as you go over, as you go over a rise or through a pothole, that that angle of change is, is lessened on a longer wheel base. [00:41:43]Randall Jacobs (host): It hadn't occurred to me that, so you're saying like a degree of head tube angle change, all else equal, same fork, same tubes, and everything else will actually [00:41:53]Brad Bingham: you'll feel that. Yeah. You'll feel that flex. Uh, that definitely. [00:42:01]Randall Jacobs (host): Got it. 'cause I, I was thinking of it purely in terms of its effect on trail or like the caster effect to, to simplify it for those who don't know trail and um, uh, and you know, potentially the introduction of tire flop, which usually is in an issue on, you know, gravel bikes. 'cause the head tubes aren't slack enough. Yeah. Huh? [00:42:22]Brad Bingham: yeah, there, there's that. There's also, you know, again, back to like slightly longer wheel base. Shorter stem. Shorter. I think there is some, some also, um, comfort gained by, um, how much weight is on the hands, what you feel through the, what you feel through the front. But that's really driven by the overall cockpit and the, the fit parameters, you know, [00:42:49]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:42:50]Brad Bingham: so, but [00:42:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Basically where that, those three points in space where the, uh, the angle of the hypotenuse between them. [00:42:58]Brad Bingham: Yep. Yep. [00:43:00]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:43:00]Brad Bingham: So, so, yeah. You know, they, it's pretty quick, uh, pretty quick to tell the difference in how, how smooth bikes are, um, with those pretty, pretty small dimensional changes. Um, but it's even, it's been difficult for me even in design where I go, oh wow. I don't, wow. I don't wanna change the front center by, by that much. Like, oh, that's, That's 20 millimeters and then you have to remember, wait, it's 20 millimeters. It's nothing like, [00:43:35]Randall Jacobs (host): Well, as a, as a percentage, if you're dealing with a bike that has a wheel base, use a round number of like a thousand, usually a large gravel bike could be a bit longer than that. [00:43:44]Brad Bingham: Yeah. [00:43:44]Randall Jacobs (host): You know, 20 millimeters, so 2%. [00:43:48]Brad Bingham: Right. [00:43:49]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:43:50]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. But it's [00:43:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Though, in terms of, in terms of mass distribution over the two axles, it's gonna be bigger than that because it's relative to its distance to the the bottom bracket. So the rear end is staying unless you change the rear end with it as well. [00:44:04]Brad Bingham: sure, sure. And I, I think, I think oftentimes it is smart to adjust that rear center in a accordingly, um, because otherwise you will end up with, um, too much rear weight bias, you know, [00:44:19]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:44:20]Brad Bingham: so. [00:44:20]Randall Jacobs (host): Which, which can be, which can be fun if you like wheelies and for a certain type of riding, [00:44:25]Brad Bingham: Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, the bike, I'm like, the bike I'm riding right now is, uh, I think it's about a four, I think it's like a 4 27, uh, chain state. That's center to center. Not effect, not uh, horizontal, but [00:44:44]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep. [00:44:45]Brad Bingham: center to center. It's like a, like a 4 [00:44:48]Randall Jacobs (host): So horizontal, it's gonna be, you know, for 23 it's a pretty tight, [00:44:53]Brad Bingham: Yeah, it's pretty. [00:44:53]Randall Jacobs (host): uh, actually, no, not that much, but yeah, 4 24 or something like that. [00:44:57]Brad Bingham: Yeah, actually I think it is less, um, because the drop is probably, I think the drop on my rig is like at least 73, 75 maybe I forget now. Um, but that's a pretty tight, tight rear. And then the front is like a, I think the, my current ride is like a 71.7 head angle with a 47 fork, you know, [00:45:20]Randall Jacobs (host): How tall are you? [00:45:21]Brad Bingham: uh, probably five, 10, maybe a sh [00:45:25]Randall Jacobs (host): 10. [00:45:26]Brad Bingham: yeah. [00:45:26]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay. So on a larger, medium, smaller, large, sort of, if you were to fall into a, a conventional bike? [00:45:34]Brad Bingham: Yeah, [00:45:36]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:45:37]Brad Bingham: And uh, [00:45:37]Randall Jacobs (host): Just, just for context. 'cause then, 'cause then, you know, understanding like a, you know, an extra large rider is gonna be riding, uh, even if you scale that bike up, well you, you can't really, because the wheels don't scale. [00:45:49]Brad Bingham: right, [00:45:49]Randall Jacobs (host): so you have to adjust those, those angles and those lengths and stuff like that. Not just proportional, but also to account for the fact that the wheels are staying, uh, which, which I always thought was an interesting opportunity. Uh, you do see some brands that, um, uh, will, you know, restrict to like a six 50 B on their smallest sizes, for example. Uh, [00:46:09]Brad Bingham: You do see that a lot. Yeah. [00:46:12]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. I, I, I think we should bring back 26 for those really small riders who wanna run two point fours, but I guess there's not enough of a market or a marketing, uh, uh, you know, edge to be gained from it, so. [00:46:25]Brad Bingham: Yeah. I, I, I find that, uh, my more like, my more experienced clients that are, that are very small, they're, they're really looking for 700. [00:46:37]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:46:38]Brad Bingham: they're, they, they [00:46:39]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, it's interesting. Same. And how much of that is, what do you think are the drivers of that? Is that, do you think it's actually better for the vast majority of those riders, or, [00:46:52]Brad Bingham: I think that the, the, again, kind of back to that going, you know, actually going fast comfortably, like comfortably going fast, you're going to do that better on a 700 than on a six [00:47:07]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, just rolling resistance attack angle, things like [00:47:11]Brad Bingham: Yes. Yes, exactly. [00:47:13]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. So, [00:47:15]Brad Bingham: and we. [00:47:16]Randall Jacobs (host): so worth the com worth the compromises on, maybe responsiveness or, or what have you. 'cause you're definitely giving up something there, even if you do proportional cranks. [00:47:24]Brad Bingham: for sure. Yeah. But I, I think like there's, you know, you know how it is, there's a, the, the sharp end of a peloton they want, or, or the entire Peloton, they want responsiveness. [00:47:37]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:38]Brad Bingham: but you know, for [00:47:40]Randall Jacobs (host): how do you do it on those really small frames? Like, you know, you have a, a five foot ri, five foot tall rider come in and they want to do gravel racing. Four foot 10. Yeah. Four foot 10. I mean, there's, it's unfortunate, um, there's almost nothing out there off the shelf for a rider who's four foot 10 and they end up on these bikes with no standover and a 40 mil stem, and they're still not fit properly. [00:48:03]Brad Bingham: yeah. So I, I take advantage of, so seven cycles, [00:48:09]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep. [00:48:09]Brad Bingham: been producing, producing a fork called the the matador. [00:48:14]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah. [00:48:14]Brad Bingham: for quite a while. It has a 55 millimeter offset. [00:48:18]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:48:19]Brad Bingham: So you can get, you can get pretty slack with the front end and still keep it, um, you know, on the low, low lowish side of trail. Um, [00:48:31]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And for, for those who don't know, um, when you increase the offset, you decrease the trail all l sql. And when you de, when you increase the head angle, you um, decrease the trail as well. You essentially less trail, less castor effect all else equal, more, more responsive or more twitchy, depending on whether you've crossed over into, you know, if you went too far, it wouldn't, you wouldn't be able to handle the bike over much. [00:48:58]Brad Bingham: Right. [00:48:59]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:49:00]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So those, you know, and tow overlap is a real, is a real thing. And when you start talking about a bike that's gonna clear a 45 millimeter tire, um, so. [00:49:12]Randall Jacobs (host): a four 10 rider. Yeah. That's, that's hard to pull out. Are you doing, really, are you finding proportional cranks too? Are you running one fifties or one 40 fives or, or this sort of thing? [00:49:22]Brad Bingham: Yeah. I think to date, one 50 is the smallest I've gone. [00:49:27]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, [00:49:28]Brad Bingham: so, um, but those bikes, you know, they're, yeah, they're not, they're not racing at a high level, you know, they're, they're out enjoying gravel rides. [00:49:43]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah, [00:49:44]Brad Bingham: Yeah. [00:49:45]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah. Those, I'll just comment, just, uh, anecdotally the conversations I've had, particularly with some of our smallest riders is proportional crack lengths makes such a big difference. And like people are, people are just used to riding the same cranks that you and I. You know, ride their whole lives and they never knew anything different or like their bike. You know, I've, I've had riders that are five foot tall and their bikes came with one 70 fives. You know, they had a, they had a hybrid or something like that, or, or they're coming off of something, or like an older road bike and I put 'em on one 50 fives and it's just like, I can spin, [00:50:20]Brad Bingham: Yeah. [00:50:21]Randall Jacobs (host): spin it. High cadences. My, my pedal stroke doesn't fall apart when I'm tired. [00:50:25]Brad Bingham: Well also, you know, you look at bike, bike frame design and bike frame design has been dictated by what is a common crank arm length, you know, one 70 to 1 [00:50:34]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Exactly. Together, together with, uh, uh, you know, the outer attire radius, which is in turn driven by the, the rim dimensions. So like six 50 B or, or 26 versus 700 and so on, uh, puts different constraints. And then you have BB drop. If you have smaller wheels, you can't have as much BB drop, which means you're kind of more on top of the bike. And so you have all these different factors that impact each other that you're balancing. [00:51:03]Brad Bingham: yeah. And I'm, I'd say overall, my, my design philosophy is you have, uh, the, kind of the lowest. Possible center of gravity. Um, so maintaining, uh, you know, a low, low bottom bracket, um, whatever is acceptable for like, you know, wheel base crank, arm length, intended pedal, all those things. [00:51:28]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, essentially is, is, I mean, there's really not much reason not to go as low as you can go without risking pedal strikes [00:51:36]Brad Bingham: Yeah. [00:51:37]Randall Jacobs (host): more or less any application. And it's just a matter of what the application demands. Like a road bike that's doing crit racing, it's gonna need to hire bb 'cause you wanna be able to pedal out of the corner as soon as possible. Um, dual suspension, mountain bike, you know, same deal. But it's, it's, uh, you need to hire BB because you have all that squish. [00:51:56]Brad Bingham: yeah, yeah. Cycl, lacrosse, bikes, you know, side hill, side hilling, and [00:52:01]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. So it's interesting, you know, as gravel has, has taken over, um, cross and road. Arguably you ha like a lot of people who previously might have had a road bike now might only have a gravel bike that they use for road two. Uh, but like cross cross bikes have seemed to kind of converge with gravel bikes. You don't see a lot of high BB cross bikes, at least to my knowledge, on the production side anymore. [00:52:26]Brad Bingham: Correct. I think that's been a, I think that's been driven by how people are actually using the bikes. [00:52:33]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Yeah. [00:52:34]Brad Bingham: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. [00:52:36]Randall Jacobs (host): right. So we've, we've, we've gone pretty deep on geometry. How about, uh, tubes? [00:52:41]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm. So in, in my [00:52:44]Randall Jacobs (host): the levers you can pull? [00:52:45]Brad Bingham: in my world, you know, I work with titanium exclusively, and everything that I have in-house is straight gauge tubing. Um, the [00:52:58]Randall Jacobs (host): Is this all pre preformed as tubes or are you buying any flat sheets and rolling and, and welding them? [00:53:04]Brad Bingham: no, no, the, uh, no, nothing like, [00:53:07]Randall Jacobs (host): like the six four stuff. [00:53:09]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. Like, uh, I have visited some of those factories that, that perform that function. Um, but it's just not, yeah, in my opinion, it's, it's barking up the wrong tree. Um, the tubing that I get, the vast majority of it is from Washington State, from Sandvik, which is actually, they just recently were kind of rebranded to their Swedish parent company name, which is Aima. So it's, [00:53:42]Randall Jacobs (host): Interesting. Sandik makes, um, the wire that's used in spokes as well. [00:53:46]Brad Bingham: uh, I believe it. [00:53:49]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, so like we, we use Pillar Spokes and they use Sandvik. I think SENE does as well, and it makes sense, right? These are high grade, um, high performance, uh, alloys. [00:53:59]Brad Bingham: Yeah. [00:54:00]Randall Jacobs (host): Huh, I didn't know that. [00:54:01]Brad Bingham: there's, there's only two, two places in the United States that produces titanium tubing. And that's, uh, Alma in Washington State and Hayes in Louisiana, [00:54:13]Randall Jacobs (host): And that's actually produced. So they're, they're getting the raw material from somewhere and they're forming it into tubes here, forming it into alloys here, or alloying it, and then forming it here. [00:54:25]Brad Bingham: Yeah. The, the, what they refer to as Tube Hollow, that is kind of the last step of the process before it actually becomes a tube that, that Tube Hollow is all sorted out. Like the alloy is correct, the condition is correct, and then they manufacture the tube from that. Um, and then at that, from that point forward, you know, all they can, all they can do to it is, uh, alter the condition through a kneeling and, and working [00:54:58]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. Okay. [00:54:59]Brad Bingham: So I get most, the vast majority of my tubes come from Washington State. And those come in, uh, typically in like 17 foot lengths. Um, yeah. [00:55:13]Randall Jacobs (host): So you have a dedicated truck coming to you, you're buying [00:55:16]Brad Bingham: Oh yeah. [00:55:17]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. To move that sort of thing. You're not, you're not doing less than, less than container load. You're doing like a a box trucker or something? [00:55:24]Brad Bingham: yeah. I mean, it usually comes by freight. It's, uh, and then you have, you know, minimum footage requirements, um, per purchase. So, and, and that's minimum footage, requirement per diameter, per wall thickness. [00:55:40]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. [00:55:40]Brad Bingham: So you have to buy, you know, um, it ends up being thousands of feet of material to have enough material selection on hand that you feel good about the, the tubing you can offer. [00:55:56]Randall Jacobs (host): So you're buying, and this is just, you're sourcing just for yourself. You're not consolidating with other builders. [00:56:01]Brad Bingham: Correct. Yeah. Nobody else. [00:56:04]Randall Jacobs (host): That's a, yeah, that's a big commitment of, uh, of capital. [00:56:08]Brad Bingham: It is, it's very, very large. Um, [00:56:11]Randall Jacobs (host): So I would imagine like you basically spend a whole bunch of money early in the season and, well, I, no, I guess you're, you're probably able to kind of keep your demand consistent over the years. So you probably do a couple buys a year or something like [00:56:23]Brad Bingham: yeah. You end up buying enough material that you're gonna be, you, you'll have that material for literally years, you know, all, so, [00:56:33]Randall Jacobs (host): I would think especially some of the more esoteric SKUs with high, high, um, uh, minimum order quantities. [00:56:39]Brad Bingham: correct. [00:56:40]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:56:41]Brad Bingham: Yeah. But it's okay. Like, yeah. That's, that's the, that is the titanium world, because if, if you want the highest quality American made tubing, then that's, that's what it takes, period. [00:56:54]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, [00:56:54]Brad Bingham: There's other way to get it. [00:56:56]Randall Jacobs (host): And then what is, what are other people doing? Are they working through distributors and just hot paying? I'm, I'm curious about the, the business side of it as well. Like, are there, so, so here in the Hudson Valley where I am, we have, uh, vicious cycles and, uh, Um, Carl. Yeah, so Kyle's, I was out on a ride with him the other day. He'll, he'll be at Made as well. I know you'll be at Made too. Um, but he's, he, his other, the other side of his business, I forget the name of it, is the, I think the biggest distributor of steel tubes or one of the biggest distributors of steel tubes. And so you can do small batch, you can order as you go, but presumably pay, pay a premium. But does that sort of thing exist in Ty? Must exist in titanium as well? [00:57:37]Brad Bingham: It [00:57:38]Randall Jacobs (host): Not as much, [00:57:39]Brad Bingham: not, not in the, not in the same way. Um, you can certainly purchase, uh, tube sets like from, uh, data chi, uh, Columbus. Uh, but those are all, you know, Reynolds, um, aura Titanium, but those are all overseas. Third [00:58:02]Randall Jacobs (host): Or is Taiwan right? [00:58:04]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Aus, Taiwan. [00:58:05]Randall Jacobs (host): to their, yeah, I've been to their factory. [00:58:08]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. I've got some, I have some dropouts coming from them to, to check out. Um, hopefully they're here like today or tomorrow. Um, but, uh, but titanium is, uh, titanium is just such a difficult material to create. There's, there's, you know, not a lot of players, um, in that world. And it's expensive, you [00:58:36]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. [00:58:36]Brad Bingham: so that, yeah, to put that outlay of capital to create tube sets for distribution, like that's being taken on by those larger companies like Columbus, data Chi and such. [00:58:52]Randall Jacobs (host): It reminds me, uh, I'm gonna go off on a, a tangent here. Um, you ever hear about the, the Black Hawk, um, uh, spy plane? Think could do like mock 3.4 [00:59:04]Brad Bingham: yeah, they [00:59:05]Randall Jacobs (host): it was, [00:59:05]Brad Bingham: kerosene coffin. [00:59:08]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, it used to leak it. The, the temperatures when you're going Mach three plus are so high because you're essentially compressing the air ahead of you and creating that massive shock wave. But also you just, you know, compressing all that heat energy and then there's, it's impossible to dissipate it faster that they, and the expansion in the titanium would be such that they built it so that it was leaking when it took off, and then all the gaps would seal up when you're actually up in the air. And then they'd have to do air to air refueling, [00:59:38]Brad Bingham: I'm kind of a, I'm kind of an SSR 71 Blackbird, um, nerd. [00:59:43]Randall Jacobs (host): Nerd. All right. So then, so then you know about how, um, uh, the, the titanium was sourced [00:59:51]Brad Bingham: Oh, well, no, I, maybe [00:59:54]Randall Jacobs (host): from, from the U S S R through, through like intermediaries. So a us, uh, us you know, Soviet Union. So a US spy plane built to spy on the Soviet Union in, I think, you know, that plane was, uh, launched what in the, in the seventies? [01:00:12]Brad Bingham: The, the Blackbird, [01:00:13]Randall Jacobs (host): was it? Yeah. Was it even earlier? [01:00:15]Brad Bingham: it was earlier. It was developed in the fifties and into the si and into [01:00:19]Randall Jacobs (host): then decommit maybe, then maybe decommissioned in the seventies [01:00:23]Brad Bingham: Well, it was top secret until I forget. I don't know. I forget the date, but, yeah. [01:00:29]Randall Jacobs (host): until, uh, yeah, that I, I always found that interesting that, uh, it's like buy, buying this material that it, but it, it does speak to the fact, not just of Cold War tensions, but also of, you know, even a, a power as seemingly mighty as the US had to source this particular material from an adversary, um, because of what you're speaking to, the difficulty of producing it. Um, Then you get into like the, the properties of this material, which, you know, were essential to being able to create that craft at the time in the first place. But, you know, that craft required major compromises and usability that made it, you know, dangerous and expensive to, to build and operate. Uh, you know, sitting in a pool of kerosene on a runway is, uh, I guess does it light easily? I don't think it lights all that easily, but, um, [01:01:24]Brad Bingham: No, no. They just, [01:01:25]Randall Jacobs (host): still not a good thing. [01:01:26]Brad Bingham: they just said that it, that's what they called it. Um, just because you could smell the, the fuel, you know. Um, but yeah, but the, the SR 71 is a, uh, was a development project, you know, uh, that we can thank for so much of the, the titanium that we use today and, and a lot of the manufacturing, you know, the manufacturing processes that were used in the nineties, you know, to make, um, to, you know, Merlin Lights, lights, speed, all those brands. Um, yeah. Have you ever been up close to an sr? [01:02:07]Randall Jacobs (host): No. Where can you, where can you do it? [01:02:10]Brad Bingham: um, I think, well they, they tend to travel around to the different air, you know, aerospace, air and space museums. Um, I was up close with one in, uh, McMinnville, Oregon at the Evergreen Aviation Museum, [01:02:27]Randall Jacobs (host): Huh? [01:02:28]Brad Bingham: that was super cool. They, um, they were allowing. You just sit in it as well. And, but then I believe there was one at the, the Pima Air Space Museum in, uh, uh, Tucson. [01:02:45]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep. [01:02:45]Brad Bingham: So, um, yeah, [01:02:46]Randall Jacobs (host): Right by the boneyard, [01:02:48]Brad Bingham: correct. Yeah, [01:02:49]Randall Jacobs (host): which is, uh, the decommissioning location. You just have, if you've ever those listening, if you've ever seen pictures of thousands of aircraft sitting in a desert, that's the boneyard outside of Tucson. It's an insane place. Um, [01:03:03]Brad Bingham: But, but at that, the one I was looking at there, when you went up to the, like the jet engine cowling, you, and you look closely, uh, you, you're looking at these massive pieces of titanium and if you look closely, you can see the end mill machining marks, you can see how that was machined and it was probably done manually. [01:03:31]Randall Jacobs (host): Oh yeah. Especially at that age, uh, at that, uh, that vintage. [01:03:36]Brad Bingham: hours and hours that probably went into that. So pretty, pretty cool. Yeah. Cool stuff. [01:03:42]Randall Jacobs (host): There's, um, y you've probably come across the, there's videos on YouTube with, uh, interviewing the engineers who worked on that project in particular, some of the, oh, um, okay. Welcome to your next rabbit hole. [01:03:54]Brad Bingham: I rarely go down the YouTube rabbit [01:03:56]Randall Jacobs (host): This, this is a worthy one. I would say. There was, there was one, uh, there was a couple interviews I, I watched with, uh, someone who worked on the engines, uh, for that craft. So an engine that's pushing, you know, 3.2, 3.4 m at, you know, again, fifties, sixties technology. Um, and one, it's cool stuff, but two, um, just the delight that, that you see in, in, you know, he's, he's still, you know, in 2023 giving tours and talking about that experience of working on these [01:04:31]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm. Super cool. [01:04:34]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Um, cool. All right, so we've, we've, thank you for indulging my rabbit hole. Seems like we have another thing in common. Uh, uh, so, so, okay. So you have your tubes. Um, [01:04:49]Brad Bingham: Oh

This week we sit down with Joe Earley, the driving force behind Tifosi's remarkable success. Earley traces his roots in mountain biking back to college years in Georgia, where the community's vibrant cycling culture exerted a significant influence. Joe describes his early days as a outside rep in the cycling industry alongside his wife which laid crucial groundwork to the founding of Tifosi.  They recognized an opportunity in the world of sunglasses, spurred by the market's demand for cost-effective yet quality options.  The Tifosi brand was established in 2003.  Joe describes Tifosi's in-depth attention to the smallest details. Adjustable ear pads, nose pads, innovative ventilation, and photochromic lenses - everything designed with the athlete in mind. They have integrated style with utility in the 'Swank', a lifestyle-looking glass that showcases their commitment to high-quality materials. For gravel cyclists, Earley recommends the fog-resistant, rimless glasses from the rail series. With an easy lens-swapping mechanism, users can adjust according to different lighting situations. Tifosi Optics Website Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00]Craig Dalton (host): Hey Joe, welcome to the show. [00:00:02]Joe Earley: Thanks for having me. [00:00:04]Craig Dalton (host): I'm excited to get into the story of Te Foci. As I was saying to you offline, I've been aware of the brand for, it feels like my entire cycling career, so it's great to have you on and just kind of learn a little bit more of the backstory and why don't we use that as our starting point. Let's learn a little bit about your backstory. How'd you just, how'd you find cycling to begin with in your life, and where'd you grow up? [00:00:26]Joe Earley: know, um, I think, uh, similarly to you, um, You know, at college, mountain biking was catching on like crazy in the early nineties. And, uh, I was spending a summer with my, my older brother who had a mountain bike and I borrowed a mountain bike and instantly, as soon as I went, uh, I was hooked and, uh, really have been in, in the sport of cycling ever since. So, you know, early nineties got into mountain biking that transitioned to road cycling and then cycl across, and then now, Gravel road mountain bike, although I am recovering from a rotator cuff surgery, so I'm just on the road in gravel now. No mountain biking for a bit longer, but, uh, but yeah, that's how I got, um, got started in, uh, in the sports, uh, was really just through my, through my brother and, uh, Through college, just jumping on a mountain bike. So, um, you know, and then similarly to you, I had a, just a passion, um, for cycling. Just loved it. And, um, got my first job outta college and went and did that for a while. Sales managing for, for a, a boat dealership of all things. And then, um, my wife, uh, Elizabeth, who runs the business with me, her dad was a, a rep in the cycling, in the tractor industry. So he sold like tractor attachments. And I said, you know what, what Henry does, I, I could probably do that in, in cycling, right? There's gotta be some of those out there. So I picked up like a mountain bike action. I flipped to the back, to the list of advertisers and I just started calling companies. And, um, we started our own, um, independent cycling agency first. So that was our, our first business in the, in the cycling space. Um, we ended up having a very successful agency here in the southeast. So we're based right [00:02:08]Craig Dalton (host): gonna ask Joe, where, [00:02:09]Joe Earley: Georgia. [00:02:11]Craig Dalton (host): where were you in, where were you in college when you first discovered mountain [00:02:14]Joe Earley: Uh, so I was at University of Georgia. Uh, I spent a, a summer in Birmingham, actually in, uh, Oak Mountain State Park. Any listeners in that area? Uh, one of the best mountain bike places I've ever been to still today, and I've been riding for 30 plus years. Um, so that was one of the first places I was exposed to, to mountain biking, but then came back here, uh, to college in the fall and, uh, Go Dogs, university of Georgia Town here. We're in Watkinsville, Georgia, which is about 10 minutes from the University of Georgia in Athens. So, um, [00:02:42]Craig Dalton (host): And, and I feel like in that sort of early to mid nineties, Georgia actually had a nor national race over in, in the [00:02:49]Joe Earley: yeah, so actually we had, we had some interesting things. We actually hosted the, uh, the first Olympic mountain bike race here in Atlanta. We went to see that, that was crazy. It's, it's so hot here, uh, in the summer. So it was, uh, it was interesting seeing those guys hammer along. But yeah, there's been, um, you know, there's, there's also I think been a Norman National that used to be up at Sly, uh, in North Carolina, which is right over the, the border. But, um, really active, um, mountain bike scene and, and cycling scene in general here in the southeast. Athens has always been a big, you know, cycling area, the Twilight Criterium, uh, one of the best. Probably road, um, cycling events to watch in the States. 'cause it's, it's downtown Athens at night. It's when students are in, it's, uh, it's a pretty electric vibe. So it's a, it's a fun area for this. [00:03:35]Craig Dalton (host): And would you describe it as being a vibrant cycling community year round in Georgia? [00:03:40]Joe Earley: Um, yeah, I mean definitely there's pockets of, of areas where it's not as accessible. You know, if you're, if you're in parts of Atlanta, The, the, just with traffic and everything else, it's just not as accessible as a lot of other cities. Athens seems is a, is a pretty good community. We're in Watkinsville, which is a small town outside of it, but there's a lot of, you know, Atlanta does have the Silver Comet, which is a rails trail that goes all the way from Atlanta proper all the way out to the Alabama state line. Um, and so it's, it's a nice, uh, venue to have there. So it's a, you know, it's a, it's a very. Cycling friendly community overall, just, I wouldn't ride on a lot of the roads in, in Atlanta, it's a little bit hairy just 'cause of the amount of volume and there's not a lot of dedicated, like some cities, a lot of dedicated, um, bike lanes. [00:04:27]Craig Dalton (host): So you mentioned you and your wife started, uh, an independent rep agency focused on the cycling industry. What were the first products that you picked up? [00:04:35]Joe Earley: my gosh. The first products we picked up, um, brands that are gone now, um, rocket Power Parts, which was like a, a glove company. Um, we did Cantina Mountain bike gear. I. Um, CKA Cranks for a while. Um, but then the first brands that we picked up that we really started to be able to build a business with, um, Louis Gar Apparel, uh, out of Quebec City. And then, um, Marin Mountain Bikes. They didn't have any sales in our territory, but we were able to start building a business with those brands. And then, uh, over time we picked up, you know, a lot of great brands. Um, we were doing CD shoes, Easton, when they launched their cycling. Um, Products independently from selling through other people doing their, their carbon fiber products. Um, gosh, what else do we have? We did cliff bars, another southeast company, defeat socks. Uh, we did sunglass brands. We did a lot of different, or a couple of different sunglass brands over the years. Um, and that's kind of what led to tci. We had a very successful cycling agency. We were selling what was at the time, the number one, you know, cycling, sunglass, and I would make a great commission for those. Your listeners don't understand what an independent rep does. It's. You're a 10 99 independent contractor, you only make money on what you sell. So it's not like these companies are paying you a, a, a salary, it's if you sell a one of their products, you make a commission on it, uh, and you're selling to the bike shops. So we would place a, a display of 12 or 24 pairs of these higher end products, and, and we get a nice commission at that point. And then I'd go around the next month to see Craig and say, Hey, Craig, you know, uh, What's going on with the sunglasses? It looks like you've sold a pair, you know, and they would sell one or two a month at most. Um, and I'm like, guys, I can't stop the car for one pair of sunglasses. How can we sell some more? [00:06:19]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah. I think that's another like interesting point just to make sure everybody understands, is like as a independent sales rep, you're going out and visiting throughout the territory. Maybe it's Georgia or the broader Southeast, and you're visiting every single shop. Your job is to figure out how to sell the products. You're obviously selling, but what, what's selling in the shops? Like, what should you be bringing to them? 'cause that's how you make money. [00:06:45]Joe Earley: And it's, it was a great, um, great business. Loved it still. In fact, my, my former agency, a fellow who worked for me runs it now. Um, so still, still exists. Um, great. Interacting with the retailers. 'cause what's great about the cycling industry is that the. The retailers and the shop owners. In the shop buyers, they are the market. You know, they're kind of like me and you. They got into it 'cause they, they like cycling. There's not a lot of people in the cycling industry that. Oh, well, I just, I, I wanted to, you know, start a, a great business and make millions of dollars, so I'm gonna go sell bikes, right? It's just not that type of market. So, um, you know, you're interacting with people who get the product, they get what is exciting to their consumers. Um, and so that was, that was a great learning experience just overall about products and demand and what. Selling through products. Um, you know, and we consistently see our retailers and they have sold a pair of sunglasses. And as we were talking to them, the feedback was if they had something that was nice at a, at a lower price point, they thought they could sell, you know, more products. Um, at the same time, you know, I knew lots of reps in other territories, so we just started calling other reps in other territories going, Hey, Do you see something like this? And at the time, um, what we were focused on was the interchangeable sunglasses. So in, in mountain biking and cycling in general, the idea of being able to, to swap your lenses out quickly and easily and have those in a package, um, it was available. But the brands that was available in it was generally a hundred to 150 or $200 or more. Um, [00:08:16]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, and it feels like a lot of times you would buy the glass and you'd have to buy the lens separately, so it wasn't just $150, it was $210. All [00:08:23]Joe Earley: even the brand I was selling at the time, you know, I'm going to them going, Hey guys, just give me a product that comes with the lenses and retails at even a hundred. And I could sell quite a few of these. And so our idea was to come to the market with three lenses and be able to retail it at $50 or $60. And um, you know, we talked to other reps and other territories and consistently feedback was, no, they don't see something like this. Or, yeah, there's something there, but it's. It's just not very nice. Um, and meanwhile, there was a, a large e-commerce retailer that a lot of you guys knew in the day and, and still exists now, but performance bike was based in my territory. So they had a big mail order component and they had about a hundred stores and they were doing it. They had a sunglass that had three lenses and a case, and it retail for about 50 bucks. We can do it. It's gotta be there somewhere. So, um, In 2003, we, we said, okay, let's do it ourselves. 2002, we made the decision. We went over and, and found some sourcing and, um, we brought I think a total of 23 SKUs, 24 SKUs to market that first year. Um, [00:09:26]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I was gonna ask, how did you, I mean that there's a, it's a big step between here and there, which is like, okay, we have this idea, we think a price point is viable at 50, $79, whatever it was at the time. But actually sourcing glasses, you're an enthusiast, your wife's an enthusiast, you understand the market. It was not gonna be feasible for you to put out, you know, super low quality glass. And have any vision for OSI surviving is that, how did you get to creating a product that met your own expectations as well as the price [00:09:58]Joe Earley: Yeah. So, um, you know, we made a trip. I made a trip. She ran everything here. Um, went to a huge optical show over in, uh, in Hong Kong actually, and met with, had to be 300 different suppliers, factories there. And, uh, had the concept of what we wanted. Had kind of the, the three lens, had some examples of what we were looking for and just literally went and met with every single one of them there over a, a four day, uh, trade show. And we found. Three, maybe four, that we thought could do the quality and had the products. And we started with, you know, open mold products. So we said, Hey, we're looking for products that already exist like this. And, um, we found those. We, we quickly even starting in, you know, late in year one, we started developing our own. Molds in our own products, our own designs, but we started with things we negotiated and exclusive for North America with them and said, Hey, don't sell these to other people. We like this design. And we brought, uh, a collection to market from there. Um, we've been very, very fortunate in that, um, you know, one of those partners that we started with in 2003, I. Is a partner we still work with today. So we've got longstanding relationships. All of our products are, are made in Taiwan, um, not in mainland China, but, uh, well all with the exception of one. We do have one product, uh, our aviator that's made there 'cause there's no metal production of sunglasses generally in Taiwan. Um, but uh, yeah, we, we were really fortunate to partner with somebody there and then started quickly trying to develop our, some proprietary products thereafter. But, uh, we were fortunate that we had the sales apparatus with the. The sales agency that we kind of knew how to sell things. And Elizabeth, my wife, was running, uh, an east coast warehouse for one of our companies. Um, so she already knew the pick pack shipping operation side of things. So we, all we needed was the product fortunately, um, to kind of [00:11:46]Craig Dalton (host): Question for you on that, on that product, Joe, I always think about sort of the lenses and the quality of lenses being important for cycling, right? We all wanna feel confident that if a rock hits us, it's not gonna break, et cetera. I. Was that were the lens quality already there with these manufacturers? They understood like they need a high impact lens. [00:12:06]Joe Earley: Yeah, I mean, uh, the, the, the idea of a polycarbonate lens, uh, which is what we source on most of the products we do, we offer shatterproof product lenses on all of them. Some of our photochromics use a little bit different material. Um, 'cause of the technologies involved, but they're all shatterproof. You know, you can hit 'em with a hammer, they won't break. That technology was there. Um, and you'd be shocked at, you know, the higher end brands, high price brands that are being made in, in those facilities already. Um, so we, we knew from, hey, what they're already making, they can make the quality we're looking for. [00:12:39]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. [00:12:40]Joe Earley: we were, we were fortunate in that standpoint. We did learn a lot about lenses 'cause. You know, for instance, our first polarized products that we offered, we were using a, what's called a tack lens, which is not something we were recommending recycling at the time. Um, we moved outta that just in year two, just because it's, it doesn't have as much impact protection as like what we have with all the products now, but the lens quality and the impact protection from like the interchangeable sets, um, it was there. [00:13:06]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, and this is really rounding out the OSI story for me. 'cause knowing that you guys were within the industry and were independent reps and. Intended on going into the bike, local bike shops from the get go is super interesting. So I, I presume sort of in those first years you were able to kind of tap into obviously your, the local southeast region where you already had a lot of personal connections, but it also sounds like you had connections in other regions to sign up other independent reps to start putting the product [00:13:35]Joe Earley: know, it's a, it is a relationship business in cycling. Um, you know, I, I both, we sold it in the southeast with our agency, but then we were able to contact, we knew who the good sales reps were. I. In all the other territories. Um, now it's a, as a pioneering brand that didn't have sales, that was a challenge to get, you know, good reps on board. But we were really blessed, um, and that we were having really good success with it. Here we got a, I think we only started with six territories, um, to begin with. Um, so call it six or eight total reps, you know. Now on the cycling side of things, we probably have at least 35 ish. In that space. So we started small with that, but we went from zero to 500 retailers in the very first year. Um, just word of mouth, the retailers, word of mouth with the, the reps, you know, when we place the product in the retail stores, they started checking it right away and at a very high turn, generally in the same, you know, retail location, we're gonna sell seven or eight times as fast as their $150 sunglasses that they carry. Um, so we were very fortunate in that. And so we went from 500 dealers to a thousand and now, In the US we have about 3,500 retailers, um, doors that carry the product, and that's in the cycling space, which we're the number one market share. We have about 74% of the market, um, in cycling specialty stores. So seven and a half, 10 pair of sunglasses they sell. S um, but we're, you know, a top brand in the running space, uh, in outdoor we're carried in every R e I location out there. Uh, we actually have a really strong business, um, in the golf, golf arena. Um, we saw that as an adjacency, and so we're primarily focused on sport products. Um, but you know, cycling was kind of where we started and where still our largest kind of single market in the US is today. But we have distribution now in about. 35 other countries. Um, and almost all of those are cycling, um, specific types of distributors. [00:15:28]Craig Dalton (host): Got it. How, how, when did you sort of, uh, extend beyond the initial cycling industry and kind of go into running and multisport? [00:15:38]Joe Earley: um, we, we actually, so running was, was adjacent, but we really didn't, we didn't know it. Um, we had, uh, a lot, quite a few of our, a couple of our reps were doing Sego in the day and Sego was a strong cycling brand, but they had a very strong running apparel brand. And, um, almost by accident we had some reps who were doing Sego already. And so they're calling on run stores and so they just started pitching to FCI to them and they started picking 'em up and they were selling 'em, and they were like, we didn't even realize that. I think M P D came to us maybe back in, which is a, used to be, it's a. Retail reporting software, a company that, that collects retail data. It was probably 2006 or 2007. We were the number one market share in running specialty stores, and we didn't even know it. Um, our market share was actually stronger than it was in in Pike. Uh, it was just a smaller market. There's not as many, uh, Running specialty doors, is there our cycling doors? Um, so it really started even, you know, in late 2003, we had some adjacency. We were picking it up, and then kind of 2004, 2005, we realized, hey, this is a great other area. Same thing for golf. We saw that as an, as an easy adjacency. So we started knocking on those doors with other independent reps. So we knew the independent rep world. We knew how, how they operate, and we set up our business to make it. Easy for them to, to write orders and to get business and uh, and to make commissions. And so that, that worked very, very well for us building our brand, you know, through, through the retail network. [00:17:10]Craig Dalton (host): And Joe, how have you guys thought about product development over the years? I mean, obviously like sunglasses have been very trendy and there's been sort of an evolution. Maybe it comes from taste makers, maybe it's artificially inserted into our tastes from bigger brands with bigger marketing budgets. But I'm just curious kinda how you see product development and putting the best product possible out there. [00:17:33]Joe Earley: Yeah, I mean, uh, our, we have three legs to the company stool that we talk about, and number one is product. We, we feel like we have to bring out, you know, very high quality. Technical bells and whistles, sunglasses that, um, people can use for, you know, these crazy sports that they go out and do. You know, um, cycling, gravel cycling is some of these events. It's brutal on the product. So we feel like that's like the first leg of the stool. And it's certainly you see evolution, um, with the product. But we're looking for what are technical benefits that we can bring to make the experience for the end consumer better. And so it started, like the first feature was coming in with multiple sets of lenses, right? It came with multiple sets of lenses, came with a case retail around $60. Um, you know, over time we found other features that we thought, Hey, this, this really makes it better. We were always noticing it with, with all the cycling helmets, the retention systems started really. Changing and they were bigger or smaller. And so then your eyewear stems would interact with 'em either in a negative or a positive way. So we started adding adjustability to the ear pads so that you could adjust them to get 'em to be the right fit for you. And then we noticed, okay, the same thing's true for noses. Your nose, my nose, you know, your wife's all different. So if you can adjust the nose pad, that makes it. A better experience for them when they're doing these, these crazy events. Um, and then we noticing, you know, like putting ventilation in lenses. Um, we've, we've gone so far now as we have like a utility patent on our, what we use on the rail system now, but started with our podium design. It's a, it's a shield rems design that you can interchange the lenses easily on. And so just looking for these innovations that would make it easier for the end consumer and make their experience better. Um, photochromic lenses, you and I were talking about beforehand, that's been a. A huge part of our business, you know, these lenses darken and lighten automatically in about 12 seconds. They'll go from light to dark. And so when you're talking about, you know, the gravel events with different, um, you know, lighting conditions start first thing in the morning. You want something lighter. But then you, when you're at the peak of the day and you're out on Mount Tam, like you're talking about the blazing sun, you want it to be to darken up, but you don't wanna have to pull over and swap out the lenses. So there's been a lot of technical innovations that kind of happened over the years. There is some fashion to it, Craig, for sure. Um, you know, it's, it's gotta look cool and it's gotta look cool to the end consumer and what everybody considers cool. It does change over time. Um, you know, we've definitely seen that right now on the sports side of things. You know, the big shield is, Is absolutely where the market is at. They won't, consumers looking for something that's flatter, uh, which actually for the end consumer optically is a little bit better. Uh, these flat lenses, um, give a distinct look, which is why most of the consumers are buying them, but the fact that they have less curve actually makes their optics a little bit better too. Um, so, you know, they, and then we have another whole side of our business that's more what I would consider sport lifestyle products. Um, in 2018, we launched a product called Swank, which is, um, It's, it's a lifestyle looking glass, but it's made with the same frame and lens materials that we make the, you know, $80 interchangeables with. So you can go, you know, do a, a gravel race in it or you can go hang out in the coffee shop with it. And that's been one huge change in, uh, in the business in the last, you know, six years. That's now 60% of the volume. [00:20:55]Craig Dalton (host): And do you find that some of the, the cycling shops are picking up those more casual [00:20:59]Joe Earley: Yeah, they almost all do both. They almost all do both. In fact, up until, um, Actually still in units. The swank model that we sell is the number one selling sunglass in the cycling industry. Um, and funny story, we were talking about the vegan cyclist before, uh, we started recording Tyler rides with both. He'll ride our rail, which is our top of the line kind of sport piece, and then he'll wear our Swank xl and he's doing these crazy long events in what I consider something to be way more casual. It's got him fully protected, but he loves the way it looks. He loves the way it fits. And you know, that's 80% of the battle You wanna have something that's comfortable. Comfortable for you that, that you're comfortable with when you're out there doing these things? [00:21:38]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Do you think about product development, we talk about cycling specifically. Do you think about mountain bikers differently than you do gravel riders or road riders, or do they all kinda end up merging [00:21:50]Joe Earley: I, you know, I think there's a lot of crossover. 'cause I mean, how many of us are there that we do? We do it all right. I mean, I started mountain biking, then I got into road cycling, and then I cycl across and then I do gravel. I used the same pair for all of them. Um, personally, there are some nuances, you know, in the mountain biking space, um, there is a little bit of preference to have something that's more full frame. Generally where that comes from is, um, you know, there's some, some mindset that, hey, if I crash, if it's got a frame on the bottom, that's not gonna cut me. I'm telling you from personal experience and from seeing tons of pictures over the years, if you crash hard enough, it won't matter whether you've got a full frame or you don't have a frame. You've got that, that possibility out there. Um, but I think, you know, most people these days are doing multiple disciplines. You know, when you're gravel cycling, you're p you're mountain biking, a lot of times you're doing single track, you're doing fire roads, you're doing road for certain parts of it. So those lines are so blurred now that I think the product tends to be quite a bit blurred as well. It used to be much more niche like, oh, if it's an open lens glass, that's for roadies. And then if it's a full frame, that's for mountain bikers. I don't see as much of that anymore. There's still some of it, but it's not nearly as much now. [00:23:02]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah. I have to say when I first started riding the rail, my, my initial reaction was, this thing is so light. Can it possibly withstand? I mean, it's not like I go around crashing my face into things, but it was just this reaction I had. Like, is this gonna be durable enough? And, gosh, I've been wearing that glass for maybe at least a month now. And fortunately, knock on wood, I haven't crashed it. But I think I've, I've, I no longer think about durability as an issue [00:23:31]Joe Earley: Yeah, I mean we, we literally, when we started it, it's like we kind of talked about it's. People say, well, if it's, if it's $80 and it's got all the features of this $250 sunglass, well what's wrong with it? That's the the impression. We would go to trade shows with a hammer and we literally would put lenses on the ground and we would start hammering on the trade show floor just so people could see that, Hey, this is gonna protect you. Um, you know, why? How can we do it? Why Y is, you know, Y is brand X $250 if you try to put three lenses with it and we're able to sell them for $80 or even have. High quality products like swank that retail all the way down to $25. Well, it's a couple things. One, we're based in Watkinsville, Georgia. None of y'all have heard from it because it's the middle of nowhere almost. You know, we're 10 miles outside of Athens. We're not based in Southern California, so our cost of doing business is much lower. Um, number two, our marketing budget is tiny, right? I mean, you don't see full page ads with all the top Pro, pro tour riders. We don't pay. Those, those guys, we just don't, we don't have the budget for that. We're trying to give the consumer that high quality product at a value. And the way we do it is we've just got a lot smaller budgets overall, and we don't make nearly the margin. It's the high-end sunglass manufacturers do. Um, so that's kind of the, the secret in the sauce. Um, You know, it's, it's, we control our overhead for things, and we don't pay for, you know, crazy, crazy spends. We don't have the money to do that, so we're delivering the consumer a great product and they buy lots of it. [00:25:03]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think you know that in the absence of this conversation, I would've assumed you were only a direct consumer brand and that's how you were able to achieve the, the price points that you are. So the fact that you're also affording a margin to your specialty bicycle retailer and running shops is quite impressive and maybe more illustrative of. What the cost of production actually is and what the cost of all those massive marketing budgets are for some of the bigger sung companies. [00:25:31]Joe Earley: I mean, it's a, it's a highly competitive space. I mean, most people know there is one company out there that's $25 billion in sales, and they really, mostly 99.9% of their business is on the ultra high end. And you know, from their standpoint, they have a great business. If they can sell it for $300, then they should. If someone will pay for it, then great. Uh, I've just never been wired that way. I was not that guy. I just can't get my mind around it because we've all had that high-end brand and we drop 'em a week after we buy 'em. And the scratches right in your field of vision and you've got a sick feeling in your stomach for this crazy expensive purchase you made that suddenly is now. That you've gotta go and spend more money to fix. Um, so that's just never been, never been our motto. It's all about having that value for the end consumer. [00:26:21]Craig Dalton (host): Got it. And Joe, if you were to recommend something in your lineup, and I know there's a lot of personal preference that goes into this, but if you were to recommend one set of glasses for a gravel cyclist out of your lineup, what would it be and why? I. [00:26:34]Joe Earley: Um, for me it would be the rail series. Um, so we have a standard rail and we have a rail XC and a rail race. They're all the same frame. I. Um, I like it 'cause it's completely rimless. Um, I like the completely rimless glass because you don't have to worry about fogging as much. So even if you're in a single track section down here in Georgia where it's super humid, if you're moving a little bit, it's gonna bring some airflow and you have nothing impeding your field of vision. You don't have a frame anywhere that you really notice in the activity. So, um, and I would recommend looking at one of what we call photo tech. Which is a photochromic option. We've got, um, both the Clarion Red and the Clarion Blue Photo Tech. What is that? These are, these are glasses that have a slight mirror to them. So, um, they're very light colored when they're not activated. But then when you're in full sun, you know, they're gonna give you a lot of shade. I have blue eyes, so I need that when I'm out there in full sun. And when you ride here in Georgia, mostly riding in full sun. Um, so I would definitely look at the rail series. That is, that's our bestselling, you know, Performance, um, sport piece in the line today. [00:27:38]Craig Dalton (host): That's the one I'm using. I'm using the, the blue one and it's the first time I, I put it on in my garage. It was really funny 'cause it's like, put it on, I looked in a mirror just to kind of see the color and then I walked outside. And to your point, like it changes pretty. Rapidly, um, really cool technology and, and to your point, like for an off-road cyclist, that versatility of the, the lenses changing themselves is super helpful. 'cause you don't have to change when you go in the woods, it's gonna automatically kind of just change that, that mirror element or the darkness that you're experiencing looking through 'em. [00:28:10]Joe Earley: Yeah, I mean it's, it is a technology that we started offering in 2005, um, and it's come. A tremendous way now, I mean these mirrored versions that we have now, those are just available in the last three seasons, um, that we just started offering those. That's not something you really see a lot of out there. Um, and we've definitely seen a lot of, a lot of end consumers on the cycling side of things love these. Um, 'cause one look, we all wanna, we think we look cool, um, with the helmet and the Lycra on and all that. Um, but definitely having that mirror out there, it. It looks cool too. So it, it definitely gives that, that, uh, the fashion factor that we all are looking for. [00:28:50]Craig Dalton (host): Nice. And the, the, the rail in the non photochromatic lenses, you've got, it sounds like you've got several op uh, options there as well. What are those, what do those look like? Are those clear lenses? Dark [00:29:01]Joe Earley: those are gonna come with three lenses. The lenses that come in the frame will be a shaded lens, you know, probably mirrored, um, more for full sun conditions. They'll come with what we call an AC red, all conditions red. That's a good like mid light conditions. If you're unsure what you're gonna be doing, go with the AC red. And then we always put a clear lens in the package. Um, you know, still a lot of people that like to ride at dusk or at night. And so this gives you a great night riding option there. All those, you can swap 'em out in just a couple of minutes. Um, Not even a couple of minutes inside of, you know, a minute. Once you're, once you're comfortable with 'em, they're very easy to swap those lenses in and out, in and out. And we do find people that, you know, they'll buy a photochromic option and then they wanna buy an extra lens to have, you know, you can get all those on our website. We offer custom, you know, products. So you can go on our custom, you know, portal on the web website and build up a rail with whatever frame color you want, whatever lens color you want, whatever ear, padd color you want, so you can fully customize it. [00:29:55]Craig Dalton (host): Nice. Since I got the Photochromatic one, it didn't have multiple lenses, so I'm curious how, how do you actually. Take the lens out 'cause it's a frameless design. So for the listener, you've got the, the, the ear earpieces going directly into the lens itself. [00:30:11]Joe Earley: Yeah, we've [00:30:12]Craig Dalton (host): Joe's gonna hold up a pair of glasses. [00:30:13]Joe Earley: on the side. I've got the glasses in front of me here. Um, but this, this mechanism on the side here, it basically, there's a little cam here. This, this has a little flex into the backside of the frame. This is a patent we have. Um, and so it allows this frame to flex and then just pull off. So it's, it's almost like a little bottle opener almost. And then when you put it back in, you just put it in the groove there and you just snap it on. It's just rotating it up and rotating it down. So it's, it's actually very, very simple. The biggest thing is, Craig, don't be scared. You know, these, these glasses. And I do this, uh, I do this for people all the time too. Let me grab a, um, I'll grab a sample. Ah, shoot, I don't have a good sample here to do it with, but our glasses with the, the frame material we use. You can twist 'em 180 degrees like this, so you're not gonna break them. And like I said, you can hit 'em with a hammer and they won't break. So don't be scared. Um, but we do have videos [00:31:05]Craig Dalton (host): let my nine year old, I can, I can let my nine year old manhandle him. [00:31:08]Joe Earley: I'm telling you, nine year olds and dogs are our two nesses. Um, that in my wife's purse, uh, if I wanna torture, test a pair of sunglasses, I just don't tell her and I put 'em in her purse and leave them there for a month. If they come out and they're in any type of shape to wear after that, then I know that they're gonna be a good product. [00:31:25]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I like that. I like that. Joe, this was awesome. I appreciate getting the backstory. Like I said, I've been familiar with the brand for so many years and I'm, I'm thrilled to actually own a pair now and get to use them and really can personally vouch for the quality and just super excited to hear that entrepreneurial journey and I wish you guys all the best. [00:31:43]Joe Earley: thank you so much for having us, Craig, and, um, you know, if we can help you anytime in the future, feel free. Free to give us a shout.    

Community, exchange, interdependence, celebration, purpose: in this episode, Randall and O+ Founder Joe Concra share an example of bicycles serving as a vehicle first for connection, and from there serendipity, collaboration, and the creation of meaning. Join Joe, Randall, and other members of the community at the O+ Festival in Kingston, NY from October 6-8 for a weekend of music, art, riding, and wellness. https://opositivefestival.org/ Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use code THEGRAVELRIDE for free HRM) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the podcast, I'm going to hand the mic over to my co-host Randall Jacobs. Who's joined by Joe conqueror. Joe is the founder of the O positive festival. In New York. He's joining. Randal's talk about community and how the bicycle serves as a vehicle for connection. I think you'll enjoy this conversation. But before we jump in i need to thank this week sponsor hammerhead and the hammerhead crew to computer The hammerhead crew too, is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today with industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities. That set it apart from other GPS options, free global maps and points of interest included like cafes and campsite. It means you could explore with confidence and on the go flexibility. Once again, the other night I was hit with hammerheads bi-weekly software update where new features are released so unlike other head units, your crew too continues to evolve and improve each ride, getting better than the last. Personally, I love the climbing feature. That's available on the crew too. One thing I noted in comparison to some of the other devices I've used is that now the climber feature kicks in whether or not you've got a route loaded or not. That's super important. I was riding the other day, testing out another device and I had a climb that's very known, but I didn't have a route loaded. And all of a sudden that climbing feature wasn't available. I very much appreciate what the engineers at hammerhead have done to make this computer as good as it can be, but to continue to improve it. For a limited time, our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead crew to just visit hammerhead.io right now, and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout to get yours today. This is an exclusive limited time offer for our podcast listeners. So don't forget to use the code. Duck gravel ride. That's a free heart rate monitor with your purchase of a career to. From hammerhead.io. With that business behind us. I'm going to hand the mic over to Randall and I'll talk to y'all next week. [00:02:33] Randall Jacobs (host): Where do we [00:02:33] Joe Concra: begin? I don't know. The Randall Joe Comedy Hour. I have no idea. Where do you wanna start? Well, [00:02:38] Randall Jacobs (host): how about origin story because people have asked me this a number of times and I actually don't know if I get it right. I think I get the high level of it, like how we met, [00:02:47] Joe Concra: how we met. Huh? How did we, you you go back a little ways now. Yeah. So here, this is what I remember. It was a dark and stormy night. And, uh, now if I remember correctly, so I'm sure we'll get into o positive and what O positive is at some point, but I was doing. As I often do research on partners for O positive to help this crazy experiment continue. But I'm also like a mad cyclist, mad being the operative word. And I somehow found thesis and I think I just wrote to the info at and was like, I think this model's really awesome. And I do this festival where we exchange for healthcare, which probably doesn't make any sense at all. And. Would you like to come talk about being a sponsor or a partner? Yeah. And then you said, we're actually gonna be on the east coast. And then I ridiculously said, well, why don't you swing through Kingston and we can demo a bike? Which then I had to buy a bike. That's how [00:03:51] Randall Jacobs (host): that why you bought a [00:03:51] Joe Concra: bike. Well, I rode it. Okay. I mean, it was pretty simple. Once you ride it, you're like, okay, this bike's amazing. I should probably ride more gravel and get off the road. I've survived this long in my life without being killed by a car. So, uh, yeah, that's why. Is that close to what you remember? That's [00:04:07] Randall Jacobs (host): more or less exactly the way I tell the story. Yeah. So essentially you'd reached out and, the way I've told it is you had said, Hey, I like what you guys are doing. I'm thinking about getting a bike also, here's what I do and you should come check out Kingston. Um, and then that evolved into, you know, we did a small, uh, event at, uh, utility bikes. [00:04:28] Joe Concra: Yes. Uh, great time. [00:04:29] Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And really from that first moment there was a seed planted in me about being here. Some listeners will know I now live in Kingston, but [00:04:37] Joe Concra: we're closing the gate after you. Yeah. Like nobody else, like, oh yeah. Don't come here. It's not fun here. It's terrible here. Yeah. Don't, this is not where you want to be. Yeah. [00:04:46] Randall Jacobs (host): And I remember, at the time I was becoming, I wasn't quite done with San Francisco, but , I was getting to a different place in life and didn't quite know what would come next. And that seed was watered every single time I came back and I kept coming back. Mm-hmm. So, I'm trying to remember, I think the next time I came, we had a little team summit. Mm-hmm. A couple of team members during Covid. And, we were here with you and, you showed us around, and we were here for a couple of days and that was great. I remember ending up on your roof deck, looking at the mountains on this beautiful day with my colleagues, and then the next time I came, I think it might have been my first O positive. Did the gravel ride. Yep. I made a couple of friends on the ride who are now friends here that, you were starting the, what was then trust hub now Trust up project. Mm-hmm. And, you were looking for somebody to, to help run it. You had this idea for something and some funding lined up. And. I joined the, the hiring committee. And now, I've been involved as a advisor and now, Rob Jameson, who runs that project is a good friend. Yeah. And so, on a very personal level, like you've had a pretty big impact on my life. Through the direct things that you've done with me, but then also, just the, the resonance that I felt while being here, hanging out with you, the people I met through you and through the, the, the community that is here. so much so that I moved here, I bought my first house. That's says a lot about, about you and about this place, and this is a place that has a significant amount of your influence on it. Hmm. You walk around and you have the murals and you see the little o positive, the bottom of the mural. And, you know, there's a number of community initiatives that have been kicked off in this area, presumably stemming from that initial o positive grant when you first got the festival off the ground or, or a few years after that. Mm-hmm. So . [00:06:43] Joe Concra: Thank you. Yeah. I'm so glad we're not. Like you actually said, do you want to do this with video? And I, and it's because of this, cuz I be, people would see that I'm bee red right now. Um, because I'm, I thank you. And also, like, it makes me very uncomfortable to hear these things. I feel like everybody does the best they can. And you get lucky to create space for things to happen if you're really, you know, if you really, really think about what we do. As human beings, as people listen to this as cyclists, right? We're always looking for the gaps. We're always looking for the space. We're always looking for that. That thing between the thing, right? At least I know I am. So when we met, I was like, oh, well here's the bike I'm going to ride, and this, this guy seems really interesting. I want to know more about what they're doing and what gives somebody a. Like, why does somebody wanna reinvent the wheel? Is literally what I thought when I meant you, like you want to bring down costs, you want this thing to be this, this way you're designing it. It's amazing. Like same for me, like being on a bicycle for me in the woods, being out. Like last night I went riding in some hippie, decided to destroy my knee, but it was a voodoo doll. And we'll get to that. And uh, I wanna keep you all the same. You're riding in Woodstock. Yeah. No close. Rosendale, same thing. Yeah. Um, but you know, There is a desire to work a lot in community and do a lot of really good things. The counter weight to that is being on your bicycle and being alone. Yeah, so I can tell you that the thesis bike that I ride more than any road riding I did since 1982 on right. Being in the woods on gravel alone and like riding by a beaver pond and seeing an owl. At seven o'clock at night in the Hudson Valley is the quiet, it gets the monkeys outta your head and quiets you down. So I'm very, very thankful for, you know, what you've designed. This podcast. I really like the, I really like what's on Slack. I think that's really, really great. It's able to communicate with people on the ridership is great. So, you know, there's mutual respect in that way. I think that it's really, really important just to acknowledge how. You know, cyclists are weird, right? They're like hockey goalies, soccer goalies, cyclists, place kickers in football, right? They're, every cyclist I know is like, yeah, I really wanna be your friend, but also leave me alone. Like it's this weird dichotomy, like they've got their hand up and come here at the same time, which I really appreciate and I find that really, really, really, I'm just thankful [00:09:19] Randall Jacobs (host): You have maybe more of an outside view on cycling and cyclists than I do, cuz I had just been in it for so long. Mm-hmm. Like I was a competitive cyclist for a period and that's its own kind of mindset. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. worked for, worked in the industry quite a bit for quite a long time. I mean, obviously I have a company I do this podcast and so on, so I was like in it versus you are, I think first and foremost, what. An artist, a community builder. [00:09:47] Joe Concra: Yeah. I think first and foremost, I, I make paintings. I mean, that, that's what I do. Right. And then I do all these other things outside of the studio. Right. So I, I run a nonprofit with my friends who, which I built since two in 2010, um, that exchanges art and music for medicine at the festival you've been to every year? Yep. We're about to go year-round with a clinic after 13 years to take care of artists, musicians based on an exchange model, not based on money, trying to take money outta the system. Um, and. I ride bikes and I've ridden bikes like every day of my life for my entire life because I love them and surround myself with cyclists and just riding in general. Um, so yeah, not a pro avid cyclist, I think is what they would call it back in the day. An avid [00:10:26] Randall Jacobs (host): cyclist. Well, before we, we dive in on the, the clinic and o positive and so on. I'm just, uh, want to kind of pull at this thread. What, what do you notice? Do you notice patterns amongst cyclists in particular? So you mentioned [00:10:41] Joe Concra: like, can I just throw this? Can I throw a cyclist under the bus? Like metaphorically? [00:10:44] Randall Jacobs (host): I mean, we're under there. All right. It does [00:10:47] Joe Concra: too. I think everybody listening to this knows this. This isn't a secret. But I was a road rider for years. Mm-hmm. Like back in the, you know, you turn whatever age you get your, you save up your money cuz you're working at McDonald's or your newspaper route and you buy your first road bike, it's like a Ross, it's yellow, it's ugly as hell. Then you graduate to your next bike and you get a Schwinn cuz you think that's the best bike, whatever. And you're, Greg Lamonts, your, all those things. Then you spend years in group road rides and you do a little bit of like racing, like you and stuff, and you do all the things and you train to, and you go on group rides. A couple years ago, after getting the thesis four years ago now, I stopped. Hmm. And I was like, what a culture shift. I'm not hammering, I'm riding with my friends, I'm getting a great workout. I'm in the woods and just recently, and I know people are gonna listen to this and know me, and I rode ride with him. Please don't put your pump into my spokes when we ride together. But I went on a group ride again, a road group ride, and it was terrible. I spent the whole time looking at the wheel in front of me and somebody's back when I went to the front. I got to say I have a good, nice view, but that's what I noticed more than anything else. People are moving away from that way of riding to a more community based ride. For instance, you mentioned utility bikes. There's a whole generation of kids in sneakers and cutoff jeans. Yeah. And that's their ride. That's how they ride. Yeah. The old guys like me wearing stupid spandex, plastic shit. Like, sorry, I didn't mean to curse. Can I curse on a [00:12:23] Randall Jacobs (host): podcast? No, no. That's definitely gonna get us in trouble. [00:12:26] Joe Concra: Well, sorry. Ftc. F F, fda, whatever, whatever. Regulatory agency. Not the human consumption, [00:12:32] Randall Jacobs (host): fda, [00:12:34] Joe Concra: But I think that's the big shift, right? There's been this massive cultural shift. I'm a little bit nervous to see money going into gravel riding. Yeah, in a way that I think it might screw it up a little bit. It starts getting a little bit competitive where I really like the, like, like the first big long distance gravel ride I did. I remember like getting ready and being like a little bit nervous, like it was a race. I kept reminding myself it's a ride, and then like some dude passes me cranking out Aerosmith on a boombox tied, tied underneath his top tube wearing a cowboy hat, cut off jeans and sneakers smoking a joint, and I'm like, this is amazing. I couldn't believe it. I was like, what a different culture. So I, I hope that that culture, um, exists and keeps growing. I, [00:13:15] Randall Jacobs (host): I think it will. I think gravel specifically, there's something about the medium that is itself, very conducive to that. You're doing mixed terrain riding. You're leaving from your back door. It's not like a road ride where. You're either going solo or you might be going on some group hammer ride. The train isn't changing all that much and so on. Or a mountain bike ride where you're hopping in your car. so there's something more out the door. I think the events that I've been to, there's definitely a trend towards, elite racing. Mm-hmm. , we, we've had, event organizers, for some of the biggest races on the pod, uh, had, have had elite racers on the pod and so on. Mm-hmm. And like, that's its own thing. And as a, I would've joked in the past and I almost did it again, I was gonna say a recovering racer, but at the time I was racing, it was great. Yeah. Like I was living my best life. And just because current me isn't into that, Doesn't mean that past me was getting it wrong, cuz future me is definitely gonna look at current me and say what were you doing at that time? Right. Yeah. And the other thing I'd say is if you're more resonant with one way of riding create that and let people migrate to it, like the utility ride and a couple of the rides around here. But also what we've talked about, growing o positive rides around that, there's no race. It's more like, here's a ride where we're gonna go out and have a shared adventure. go through a share shared ordeal. It'll be accessible to riders of a variety of different abilities. And then we're gonna have a party after. Totally. [00:14:43] Joe Concra: in fact, it's a whole weekend of [00:14:44] Randall Jacobs (host): a party. Yeah, let's talk about that. So let's get in, but I also, what are, what are the dates? [00:14:48] Joe Concra: Uh, this year will be October 6th, seven and eight. Yep. And, but I just wanna say this for all my roadie friends, cuz I still go out on the road, don't hate me, but there's road rides at Oak Positive too. Are road ride right? Mean there's road gravel and a mural to mural tour. Mm-hmm. Um, for families and kid-friendly and bring your dogs and whatever craft you want to try to pedal around. Yep. Uh, the city of Kingston. So I'll give you a little bit of the origin story and what we do cause I think that'll probably help people. So if you haven't heard about o Positive, which I suppose most people haven't, um, we are based in Kingston, New York. And our festivals, which are music and art based, every artist and musician who plays the festival. Puts up a mural, dances tells comedy, whatever they do. In exchange, we build a clinic, and in that clinic are 160 providers. Everyone sees a doctor, has access to a dentist, mental health professionals, acupuncture, massage, you name it, it's all there. We started in 2010 with a really simple idea. As a painter, it was very, it was very, Easy to say, well you know what, we never have insurance. So what if we did a festival where instead of paying the artists with money, cuz we didn't have any money anyway, we got a bunch of doctors who loved music and art and said, would you see these people? So what started as a very, very small festival in 2010? We've done 22 festivals nationwide. Our home base is here in Kingston every year in October. We do the big one here and, uh, it's grown to include gravel riding and a whole weekend of experiential yoga and sound healing dance parties. You name it, it happens from Friday night till Sunday night. When is [00:16:23] Randall Jacobs (host): this coming out? We can put it out whenever. [00:16:25] Joe Concra: Okay. Whenever makes sense. I can give you a headliner. So yeah, this year one of our headliners will be comedy. It's bobcat. Goldway. I dunno if you remember him from the movies and, but I remember it was a standup guy with that crazy voice. But I can't wait to say hi to him and meet him and thank him for making me laugh for years. Because especially coming outta the pandemic, like, we're not dead yet. Like, we should laugh. Like, we should be like, holy shit, we're alive. Like, let's enjoy this moment. And hopefully he'll go to the doctor, he'll go to the dentist, he'll talk about mental health, you know, and, and people will be able to come out and enjoy the weekend. Yeah. [00:16:58] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, that was one of the things that really resonated with me when I first started looking into a positive and getting to know you and coming here was this feeling of okay, there, are there issues in the world that affect me personally? Like I have a significant concern about engaging with the medical system, the medical industrial complex because you hear horror stories. And I know people who've been bankrupted by a system that, on the one hand people say, here in America we have the best healthcare in the world. Well, you might add the caveat that money can buy. Mm-hmm. But, unless you have really good insurance you can end up drained, if you're a small business owner or something like that. Yeah. and you don't have a platinum package. And then there's all these ways in which it deals with symptoms and not with underlying issues. Mm-hmm. Like mental health isn't simply going to a therapist once a week, though I've had periods in my life where that was really helpful in transitioning and getting context and so on, but it's much more holistic. It's like, do you feel a sense of belonging in your community? Mm-hmm. are you part of something bigger than yourself where other people rely on you for certain things and when you have need people are there to help you out. And that's something I, I experienced from day one, uh, upon moving here. And I have it within my family and I've had it within friend groups, but to a lesser degree, in other places cuz people lived to apart or like they're too focused on their career or whatever it else. Mm-hmm. I had some very dear friends in San Francisco, but, everyone's really busy. Mm-hmm. I didn't know my neighbors. I lived in a building with six units. And I barely ever spoke my neighbors, despite my best efforts, right? Mm-hmm. I, you know, I'm very gregarious in that way. And the dynamics here were different. And last year was really the tipping point for me being at the festival and just seeing how all the things that I liked about, say, something like burning Man, but without the excess and the exclusivity and the whole place of washing and money, even though it's pretending not to be about money. Mm-hmm. and you're seeing live music and you're celebrating with your neighbors. Mm-hmm. Like, you're in celebration with people that you're going to see the next day at the cafe. Mm-hmm. Or my neighbor works at the convenience store on the corner. Mm-hmm. You know, things like this. that's a very different thing that for me, I, I had this feeling of wanting something and not knowing what it was. Mm. And then when I experienced that, I was like, this is it. Mm. This is the thing where, I go positive for me represents something much bigger. As big as the healthcare component of it is. Mm-hmm. It, it is, is a different mindset in many [00:19:37] Joe Concra: ways. Yeah. I think, I mean, that's, So wonderful to hear you say that. I would say that because O Positive takes money out of a system that people are used to having run by money for three days and says, Hey look, this can be different. The whole tenor of that weekend feels. Like what you just said, it feels inclusive, it feels community. And people have always said, I can't even describe what it is. And I'm like, well, don't worry about it because we're not used to it. Right. Like we are not used to living in a system where we go, you know, that's not, I mean, yes, we take donations to come into the festival, we run on donations, right. But when you go through the clinic, if you're an artist or musician or volunteer, and you go through that clinic and you get a root canal in exchange for playing your set, Mm-hmm. That's a whole different conversation because what it does is it says, Hey, we value each other equally. Yes. And that is different because we live in a system that does not value people equally ever. We value money first, usually, and we say it, oh, positive, not this weekend. Not this weekend. And that is vital. And the other thing that I think that's really important is you recently moved to a town where. You know, it's in flux. Yes. Because people have moved in, in, in droves here during the pandemic, but also like we introduced artists, musicians for 13 years now to their local doctor. So we hear it on the medical side. Like, I love being a doctor here because I know these patients, these are now my friends. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because when you're at that show and you're dancing Yes. That doctor's dancing next to you. Yep. And that is totally cool because the lab coat's not on. Yeah. And we take, we just peel away. All of the, all of the things that we, all the baggage we bring. [00:21:29] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, so you mentioned money and, and we can really distill it down to using price, denoted in money as the sole driver of exchanges. And so you need a thing. And you go on Amazon and you order the thing cuz it's the lowest price and it gets delivered at your door and you get up the next day or a couple days later and it's there. Right? Mm-hmm. You have no relationship with the person who made it. You probably don't even interact with the person who delivered it. Right. There's no relationship there. Mm-hmm. Nobody involved in that exchange is going to be there for you when you don't have money to buy a thing. Right. Right. And furthermore there's benefits of providing things to other people that are not incorporated in what you get paid. Like I don't help out my neighbor when he needs to move an air conditioner because he's gonna pay me. I do it because it's an opportunity to hang out. Mm-hmm. And because the day I moved in, he was coming over the fence to say hello and we were talking about taking down the fence. yeah. And, having that sort of Interdependency and having exchanged that is taking into account. Like, I get to interact with you, I get to be in community with you. That has value. the other thing you mentioned, valuing everybody the same, the trust up project. Core to that vision when you initially pitched it was this concept of time banking. Mm-hmm. It took me some time to get my head around it. I kept wanting to fit it into a model of like, oh, well maybe somebody can earn two time credits if their service is worth more. Right. Or something like that. It's like, no, no, that's not how it works. Maybe talk about some of that concept and how it integrates into the mindset around what you're building with o [00:23:03] Joe Concra: positive. Well, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? If we talk, first of all, I mean, The dollar is a great unit, unit of measure, right? We all agree that this is the unit of measure, so I get that side of the story. I think what we are trying to address is the inequity of that dollar and how that dollar is different values for each, for different professions. So if we think about time banking or we think about just straight exchanges, what you want to do is even get away from what you said. In our mind, it's like, no, a doctor visit isn't worth two units of measure. Yeah. Right. You don't [00:23:39] Randall Jacobs (host): need a medium of exchange. It's a, it's, it's a direct exchange. [00:23:42] Joe Concra: Exactly. It's harder. Exactly. And time is just time. Yeah. I will give my time, whatever that time would take mm-hmm. To do this task. Oh, I am available. I could also let you use my lawnmower for this much time. I mean, Yeah, this, the funny part is Randall, at the end of the day, I think what we are doing in all the things we're doing here in Kingston and, and other small communities that are doing a lot of these things, we're just trying to get back to the way our grandparents lived in community. We've somehow lost our way cuz we've gone so global to really hyper-local action and, you know, oh, positive to me, from the beginning, sitting at this exact table, like writing it all up and coming up with friends and dreaming it all up. Was about knowing that my grandparents, who had nothing would trade sweet potatoes to see the doctor with their doctor. And that was enough for the doctor. The doctor always had sweet potatoes. Somebody else would give 'em money. My grandparents could give him sweet potatoes, so they got to go to the doctor. So, you know, it's, it's just a different way of being a neighbor. [00:24:48] Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Well I think that the getting to be a neighbor is, Really the essential bit, being in community has value and there is resiliency that comes into it that doesn't get banked in the sense that there's some ledger. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. But it's banked in the sense that people have a certain feeling around you. Mm-hmm. And you around them. And when there is hardship, that trust in those relationships that are built up mm-hmm. Form a web of interdependence Amazon's not gonna be there for you if you don't have any money to buy the thing. Right. and you know, it may be more expensive to make certain things locally and there's certain goods that it makes sense to centralize and distribute long distances and so on. But there's a lot of things where it does that doesn't make sense. And the price mechanism only works because there's so much direct subsidy in the firm of government subsidies, tax breaks, and so on. Or there's indirect subsidies in the sense that there's all these negative externalities, depletion of soil fertility or pollution of the water or pollution of the air, or changes in climate , that are not incorporated into the price. And that's Economics 1 0 1. You get Adam Smith's various market failures taught early on. And then you forget about them from then on when you get your neoliberal economics education. That was my undergraduate. Wow. Yeah. That, that [00:26:04] Joe Concra: sounds, yeah. Well, it's interesting what you, what you were just saying. You know, as you're talking, I'm like, oh my God, yes. Oh my God. Oh, it's too big. Oh, what do we do about, because people need money to pay to buy food. Still, we're not, we don't have a, we haven't built a perfect system. What we're trying to do is show people what's possible and then hopefully they can go to their own communities and do something that is important to them to do, because, you know, we are not gonna get away from this system tomorrow or the next day. We may not even have a planet by the time we're ready to get rid of this system and change it with something else. But in the meantime, we sure as hell can try and we sure as hell can build something that like someone like you is attracted to, right? Like, we know people have moved here because of O positive, like you just said it, but like we've been getting that for years because I wanna live in a community that actually values art and medicine and everything else. Equally, that's life, right? Without that, what do we have? Like, I don't know. I don't wanna live in a world without art and music and caring for each [00:27:06] Randall Jacobs (host): other, but we can have some sense of security from accumulating lots of things and living in a big house with a tall fence or Yeah. Or building a big buffer of dollars in our bank account or something like this. But, I don't think that the issue is gonna be, we're not gonna have a planet. I mean, the planet's not going anywhere. The question is how well it's going to support the sort of existence that we actually want to have for ourselves and those we care about. I view it as kind of a series of incremental experiments. Mm-hmm. You know, not everything sticks. Not everything works. And I love the, iteration process [00:27:38] Joe Concra: did you see the waste basket behind me with all the different ideas that are just all over the floor, like thousands of them. Like just the things that don't work. Oh my God, that time I was gonna start, you know, give mayonnaise to a tuna and cut out the middle man, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:52] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, I mean, being going for 13 years, so that says something. Yeah, it's hard. [00:27:57] Joe Concra: It's, um, you know, we survive off the support of the community. At the festival, everybody gets tickets. There's a price to it, but it's, it's like $75 for three days, which is insane. Um, and if you don't have that, we have community tickets available for everybody. So it's, it's, you know, It's a very low barrier to entry. In fact, if you have nothing, I'm sure we can let you in. So it's very simple to, to get involved and to, to do it and to do the work. I think that the, the hard part, We started as all volunteers and now we have a staff cuz we're going year round. Mm-hmm. Right. When we're taking over a space, we're building a clinic that's gonna open on August 11th. We're gonna go from three days to 365 with the dream of having a building that has music every night and art every night. And people can just wonder what the hell's happening there. But you get healthcare at the same time. Right. So we're like a Trojan horse of healthcare. Right. We make a party and inside that party, Are all these doctors and dentists and massage therapists and acupuncturists and mental health professionals. So we still need people's money, right? We still need the dollar while we build a separate system. And that is the hardest part. Like, that's what I worry about every day. How do we keep the lights on? And, um, it's daunting. That was my reality [00:29:15] Randall Jacobs (host): check. Yeah. I mean, it is the part that, um, I'm excited to, you know, be more involved with. As you know, my, my other commitments are less all-encompassing. Mm-hmm. Uh, building a house amongst them. Yeah. [00:29:28] Joe Concra: Have you told people about your house? Uh, I've mentioned it because you say building a house, but does everybody know that you like bought like a. Freaking falling down log cabin in a city that nobody even knew was there. It was covered in brambles. Like you guys, you all have to see and ladies, you, he Randall needs to, needs to post pictures from this place cuz it's like some weird mountain man's retreat from, but like 1970s with like shag carpets and bong hits everywhere. Like, but you're doing an amazing job. There may have [00:29:57] Randall Jacobs (host): been some paraphernalia previously. Less bongs and more bullet casings. Yes. Um, in flashband grenades. [00:30:05] Joe Concra: Really? Oh yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's [00:30:08] Randall Jacobs (host): pretty, that, that was a scary day when I found [00:30:09] Joe Concra: those. Wow. That's ama It's pretty phenomenal what you found. And you are literally resurrecting someone's dream cabin from the 1970s and making it your own. Yeah. And [00:30:20] Randall Jacobs (host): it'll be, uh, it'll be a community space as well, like adding, uh, a couple of, uh, loft bedrooms in there that I. Uh, we'll make available for, for people to, to, you know, coli. And then, um, there's a new ADU law accessory Dwelling Unit law in Kingston. Be attending some meetings around that and hopefully I can build a couple of smaller structures on the property. Nice. And then everyone who's on the property would have access to the main cabins, so like the grand room and the kitchen and the solarium off the back and so on. And have it be, um, well, I, I want, I want to learn permaculture. Mm-hmm. I want to grow as much food as I can fit. On that small little parcel in the city. Mm-hmm. Have some fruit trees facing the street that people can walk by and graze from. Mm-hmm. As I've enjoyed doing with the, uh, I think, uh, most recently it's, I got raspberries coming in and then, uh, there's lots of, uh, oh, what's the, the tr the tree berry that looks like a blackberry. That poison berry? Uh, mulberry. Mulberry. Mulberry. [00:31:15] Joe Concra: Oh my god. Mulberry's everywhere right now. The [00:31:17] Randall Jacobs (host): birds love them. Yeah. Yeah. I just like stand under, stand on sidewalks, under, under trees and just like, you know, eat Yeah. Eat my weight and, and mulberries in those. Yeah. Sit there for 30 minutes and my hands and mouth are all, you know, blackish purple. Uh, but yeah, that, that is something that I'm, I'm, uh, You know, it's still very much a still, still early stage, but as soon as it is structurally sound, um, there'll be, there'll be [00:31:46] Joe Concra: gatherings. So you haven't put any pictures up on the ground? You got? Not really. No. You have to kind of behind the radar. It's crazy now that we've talked about it. People have to see it. Yeah. [00:31:56] Randall Jacobs (host): Um, so let's talk about, well, let's talk about, so come to a positive. What's the experience? [00:32:01] Joe Concra: Yeah. Um, you get a wristband for three days. You have access to this year, ob. I said earlier about Bobcat, but there'll be 50 bands, maybe more. Um, several different stages to four or five different stages throughout the city. It's all walkable. Um, the art will be, I think there's five or six muralists we have. It's a very small city of 22,000, but we have 60 murals up at this point. Mm-hmm. Um, there'll be five. More murals going up this year. Um, plus all the other art events that are happening. Dance and readings and performances and spoken word. And, you know, you go to go on the website and as we start announcing the schedule, you'll get to see it. It's pretty exciting. Um, headlining music, amethyst Kia is playing. Um, there's a bunch, there's so many bands. It's, it's every year we're like, can we do 30? And it ends up being 50. And then you still reject. Hundreds and hundreds of bands apply and you always feel terrible because you can't accommodate them all. But the clinic can only handle so many artist musicians. So that's one reason for us going year round that is so important. So we could have every night having people seen and then, you know, the whole weekend just feels joyful. And Saturday morning, Those of us who ride get together and go on a 50 to 60 mile road ride. Um, the gravel ride, I think we will design it as like a 30 to 35 mile ramble down all the trails that Kingston is a hub for the Empire State Trail and a number of other trails. Mm-hmm. So we'll ramble down some trails to New Paltz and probably go up into Mohawk a little bit and then come back around and have a barbecue after and a big party and enjoy that. And really, I mean, it's like you get a gravel ride, but you get like, All this music and all this art all weekend long. [00:33:43] Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And this, the, in terms of the venues, uh, so there's Kegan Nails. Yep. Uh, which, you know, brew Brewery, local Brewer has been there for a while. And there's a, a whole stage there as well. Uhhuh, that's one of the venues. You have the old Dutch church. Yeah. Beautiful. Uh, just beautiful. And that is a music venue. And that's where the big, I know last year, Kimra amongst others. Yep. [00:34:04] Joe Concra: Kimra played there in Mercury. Rev played there. I'm trying to think else who played there last year. But yeah, it's a beautiful space. It's a Dutch reform church. It's one of the oldest buildings in the city. [00:34:12] Randall Jacobs (host): It's, which is an old city. This was the original capital of New York state. Yeah. [00:34:16] Joe Concra: Yeah, it was a fence around it to keep out people. It was very weird the way it was taken over. Oh, the stockade. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But hey, we're learning, you know, every couple years in the city of Kingston, they do this thing called the burning of Kingston. And just one year I wanna just see if it actually will just burn. Like, I'm just like, why are we celebrating the, there's this, they do this celebration. This gives everybody an idea of like what living in Springfield and the Simpsons really is like every two years they, everybody dresses up in red coats and. So, and, um, revolutionary wore outfits and they chased the red coats around the streets and forced them out. But the reality is when the red coats got here, everybody just left. Like everybody just, everybody just went to the next town. Nobody fought. Everybody's like, whatever. Take the town. We don't care. But in our myth making history in our American myth making history, this town has turned it into this event where, you know, we held off the British, we didn't, it was no holding off. In fact, if we would've not held them off, maybe we would have a healthcare system. Not saying it would work great, but maybe we'd have a national healthcare system. So too bad we won. Yeah. Um, [00:35:22] Randall Jacobs (host): myth making. Uh, [00:35:23] Joe Concra: but it's true. We make such crazy myths in this country about our history. Well, that's true of [00:35:27] Randall Jacobs (host): any. Any country, any culture, totally. Any, I mean, myth is essential to unifying groups of humans, uh, for collective action, for community, for cohesion. Yeah. Shared myths are essential. I mean, money, we talked about money earlier. Money is a shared myth. That's true. Why does it add value? Like what can you do with money? Muddy? Yeah. I mean, it has a little bit of thermal energy if you burn it, but not much compared to what you have to do to acquire it. Um, but no, it's the, the fact that you believe that this dollar is. So, I mean, that's no [00:35:58] Joe Concra: different, right? Well, except that everybody dressed up in costumes and chases everybody around the streets firing muskets. I mean, that's just weird. Yeah. I mean, I suppose so I think it's actually this year, by the way, and, and it, you, there have been years where it's taken place during O positive, so you get all these musicians and like leather and like weird outfits. Amongst just itself, like a, you know, it's costume. This is my, it's its own mythmaking. Yeah. Oh my God. The rock and roll myths don't even get me started. But, uh, but it's pretty wild to see. Yeah. Rock and roll costumes and colonial costumes at the same time. [00:36:30] Randall Jacobs (host): That's super funny. So we talked a bit about the festival, talked about the rides that are going on. Yeah. Another thing I just wanna share about, you know, from a personal experience standpoint, with the festival is. There, I found, anyways, something very serendipitous, which is to say, I showed up. I, I know you, I knew peripherally a few people, who I'd bumped into. Um, and then I went on the ride and I saw some people I'd seen on the ride, the previous year and had spoken with a bit, but didn't, you know, couldn't even remember their names and so on. Mm-hmm. But there was enough of like, oh yeah, I remember you from last year, and. What started as like, alright, I'm gonna go check out Kingston. Cause I feel drawn to there for some reason, but I'm going solo and I don't really know anybody. Ended up being like a series of serendipitous little events where I get pulled into something. It's like, oh hey, like you're, you know, um, you were here last year. Oh, you know, I, I'm, you know, what do you do? Oh, I do this. Oh. Oh, what do you do? Oh, I'm a musician. I'm actually playing across from Rough Draft. Mm-hmm. Uh, tomorrow. And I go to that show and I see other people from the ride and then hanging out with him afterwards. And it's. And get invited to another thing to, to go sit around a fire. I actually, in that case it was, uh, it was, it was, uh, I get a text from, from Rob who runs Trust Up, which mm-hmm. You got kicked off. He's like, Hey, are you in town? I'm like, yeah, I'm in town. I was thinking of heading back. He's like, oh, well we should hang out. Ended up staying with him and his wife and his daughter. Mm-hmm. Um, over, I think a couple of nights and sitting around a fire, uh, that evening with a bunch of people who I now consider friends and so on, and, and that just, Happened over and over and over again over the course of the weekend, really being, being here. And I find that that often happens as I'm kind of walking around the neighborhood. Mm-hmm. Uh, because there's, again, there's um, it's a big enough place where. It doesn't feel too small, it doesn't feel too isolated or anything else like that. It has all the things that I need. Like I very seldom feel, uh, granted I just got here mm-hmm. Uh, some months ago, but I haven't had this feeling like, oh, I gotta go really far in order to, to find something interesting. Right. Um, but it, it's small enough where you bump into the same people over and over again. Like you see that person at the cafe. You know that that's also working there one or two days a week. Like you, you bump into them every so often and eventually you end up sitting around the big table. Um, and you know, you have a conversation. [00:38:49] Joe Concra: Yeah. The blessing and a curse of a mid-size to small town that Yeah. You know, you get to know everybody and at the same time it's like, oh, do I really wanna know anybody? Everybody. But yeah, you're right. But the other interesting thing, and I mean you're somebody who's moved here recently is I'm always curious how you, how does one I. Wherever you're listening to this, wherever someone is, when someone new comes to town, there used to be a thing called the welcome wagon, right? Like there would be, people would come over with a, a hot dish, right? Welcome to the neighborhood, here's some macaroni and cheese. Like how do you bring people in? And also economically, what's happened here, and I think what's happened if you draw a two to three hour circle around any major metropolitan area during the pandemic is. The value of prices has gone up so high that a lot of our RS musicians have had place housing [00:39:40] Randall Jacobs (host): in particular. [00:39:40] Joe Concra: Yeah. A lot of our folks have had, have had to leave. Yep. Right. So how do you get the new crop, which everybody's always looking for, greener pastures, wants to move somewhere, right? So how do you engage new people to get involved and feel like they're part of the community? I think that's, that's a difficult nut to crack sometimes. [00:40:00] Randall Jacobs (host): I mean, I, I would flip the question. In a way that I think would have similar answers, but is more immediately actionable and say, what can you do where you are to kind of kick off or catalyze those types of dynamics. Mm-hmm. So, you know, examples of like, you know, I have a neighbor who, uh, sometimes I'll come home and they'll be a pastry in a, in a Pyrex container on my deck. Mm. Right. Little acts of kindness go a long way. Um, or I. Uh, you with, I mean, trust, trust up was very much like looking to create, uh, a platform for kind of facilitating those types of dynamics. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, okay, you, here's a place where if you have some, some need or you have something you can contribute, you can come here. And this, it's almost like a clearing house for, for, you know, those needs and resources, whether it be like you, you know, you need a tool, you need a hand with things. Something. Mm-hmm. Or you have some expertise and, uh, you can provide to someone else. And then the process of doing so again, unlike a, an anonymous remote transaction over the interwebs mm-hmm. Where something just arrives at your door, you're having an, you're having a very intimate interaction with somebody that you're going to see again in your community. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it really shifted, uh, like shifting the perspective from, uh, one of. I need to get as much utility defined very narrowly from every dollar I spend to, I have a certain set of needs and there's more than one way to get them met. And in fact, when I think about fun, fundamental needs, um, most of the things that we think of as needs in in modern culture, even if you don't have a huge amount of resources, are wants. Right. Right. What do you really need? You need to be fed, you need to be Mormon. You know, you need shelter and water security. Right. And then, you know, to, to live a live rich life, like, you know, you need a, a sense of belonging. Mm-hmm. Uh, you need, uh, some, some feeling of purpose, of, of meaning. Right. We are meaning creating machines like it, it's if, if humans do anything that seems really, um, that, that might be unique though. Uh, who knows what we'll discover as we are more and more able to interface with other non-human beings. Mm. Um, but we generate meaning, you know, we're, we're using words that it's like language is meaning built on. Meaning on meaning. It's abstraction. On abstraction. On abstraction. Mm. But its core, like, uh, uh, if you, like, if you feel insecure, Like somatically insecure, and then you have all these narratives around it. Only if I only had more money, only if I had this, this, this thing, right? That would be give me a feeling of, of, of esteem, right? I have the nice car, I have the clothes, I have the fancy bike, right? Mm-hmm. And the blingy, the blingy thing. Um, then I would feel, I would feel enough and I would feel secure and so on. And that whole mindset is something that is uh, uh, it's running up the down escalator. [00:43:15] Joe Concra: Oh, I like that. Yeah. Running up the down escalator sounds about right, but I didn't realize we were gonna get, I thought we were gonna just tell jokes for a while. This is getting really, this is getting, so I'm, I'm in a really philosophical mood these days. Here I am making fun of people who wear spandex like me, and I'm trying to, and we're getting so heavy. But you're right. I mean, it's, are you a mammal, mammal, [00:43:37] Randall Jacobs (host): middle age, something in Lycra. Middle aged man in Lycra. Oh my [00:43:42] Joe Concra: God, I've never heard about that. I hope not. No, I don't think so. I'm past middle age at this point, aren't I? I don't even know anymore. [00:43:48] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, I guess actuarily. I'm middle aged. Yeah. So to the extent that I'm still rocking Lycra on occasion, I guess I'm [00:43:53] Joe Concra: mammal. I, yeah, I think you're mammal. I think they're just looking at me in, be like, you're on the, I'm on the down. I'm on the, I'm on the downhill at this point. There's no more climbing. I'm on the downhill. That's, that's it. But the climbing is my favorite thing to do on a bike, I have to say. Yeah. That's one thing I miss about road bikes versus, versus gravel bikes. Mm. I do love climbing on road bikes. Yeah. I love the dancing on the pedals. I love going up mountains. I think it's, and around here it's great. Like, it's still my favorite thing. It's one thing I have not been able to do on a gravel bike is truly learn how to climb on gravel because it's so different than climbing on the road. And I find it, um, it's just less exhilarating. It's more of a slog. To sit in the saddle, figure out when to stand, when you're not gonna, how to distribute your weight, all that stuff. See, now I'm getting a little cycling geeky. Yeah, keep going. But it's true. I really do. I really do have, I mean, I just, I love climbing and I am, when I'm on the gravel, first of all, most carriage roads and gravel roads around here at least are old rail beds. So the grades aren't super steep. So you find places to go climb. So I find that, and this is one reason I decided to get a thesis, is. With the slicks on, I could just jump off the trail and just go climb a road. Because as you know, there's so many climbs around here. Yeah. So that's really great. But, but I'm not super good at, I'm not good at climbing on dirt. I'm really not. [00:45:21] Randall Jacobs (host): It's a different thing. There's a certain, um, you're far fewer variables on the road, and so you can, I, I find that. Uh, well, not I find recently, but I have found in the past that there's a certain flow state they can get into on a long, sustained road climb. Yes. Where, you know, you're, you're escalating the intensity and your heart rate and your cadence and all your breathing and all these things are kind of at their limits. And then once they fall into sync, all of that perception of suffering just kind of fades away and you're still going like, Really hard, but it's, it's, um, the all there is is that, that, that sinking mm-hmm. Of all the things, like, it's very, very, like in one's body, in, in that particular time and place. Mm-hmm. That, that, that string, that world line of events, it's like very much in that. Uh, I love, I love that feeling. [00:46:23] Joe Concra: I've never heard, I've never heard anybody talk about the thinking of it before. That's exactly it. That rhythm, that moment. Oh my gosh, it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. You can't even des you just described it, but like, I want to get, I just wanna put on my freaking spandex and go out. Now I [00:46:39] Randall Jacobs (host): described it, uh, it was in Daoism, like the, the, the words used to describe the thing are not the thing itself. Yeah. Any, any Chinese nerds out there. But, but yeah, it's, that was the thing for me with cycling, it's like, oh, everything, everything can go away. Mm-hmm. Everything can fade and it's a whole different context, a whole different head [00:47:04] Joe Concra: space. Yeah. I call my thesis, my mental health machine. I'm sure other people call their bike that too. I think. I think it's just that thing that gets you. To what you just said, that flow state, that place, the other place. I feel that on a personal level is my studio. Yeah. There's only, there's only one place other, and my studio will always win even over the bike. But, but it, but when you're just, when you get to that place where the thinking stops and the being is and it's just, it's, it's tremendous. [00:47:29] Randall Jacobs (host): You know where I get that these days? Clearing brush, I [00:47:33] Joe Concra: had that. I knew you were gonna say something about the cabin. Have we named this cabin yet? What is the name of this cabin? Well someone tried to [00:47:38] Randall Jacobs (host): call it Disaster Cabin. Yes. [00:47:39] Joe Concra: I love that. [00:47:40] Randall Jacobs (host): Um, But, you know, and, and I'll accept it, right. Because, you know, it was in rough shape and there's the Disaster Mansion and Disaster Cottage from, you know, two, two mutual friends. Yeah. In town, other, other falling down houses that hadn't been inhabited in a long time, that are being resuscitated. Yeah. Um, but it doesn't feel like a disaster for me when I saw that house in the condition it was in, um, my feeling wasn't, oh, this is, this is. Gonna be a lot of work. Oh, this is, you know, how, how is it in this state? Or whatever The feeling was, this is my house. Yeah, that's great. I'm going to make this wonderful. And in fact, having that, that thing to push against, kind of like pushing oneself up a mountain, um mm-hmm. But not being, you know, there, there are times, you know, again, just as with on a bike, it's like, oh, the top of the mountain is like so far away and my legs are burning, and like, I, I don't want to, why am I even doing this? Mm-hmm. Why am I choosing this? Why am I such an idiot that I like, take on these hard things? Um, you know, that that's, you know, there are definitely those moments in, I think in any relationship. Mm-hmm. You know, any, any relationship to a thing or a person or something like that. If it's a meaningful relationship, it's, there's going to be some, some great difficulty. Mm-hmm. Uh, but, but the reward is that state of like, you know, I'm doing a thing and yes, it will have a result. And that result will be satisfying. But actually I just love doing this thing too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. The reward is the process and not the outcome. Yeah, I [00:49:16] Joe Concra: was just gonna say that it's all about [00:49:17] Randall Jacobs (host): process. I think that, that, if I were to think about like a, a healthy relationship to the bike and, and, you know, would extend to any anything, is, uh, you know, it's used as a vehicle for that type of connection. [00:49:34] Joe Concra: Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. I thank you again for making such a nice gravel bike. Uh, it's really fun. It's just really [00:49:43] Randall Jacobs (host): fun. There are, there are lots of very enjoyable bikes. I think the stories that you have around it probably matter as much. It's [00:49:49] Joe Concra: crazy how, I mean, I remember we first talked way back when, when you were, when you had been at specialized and you had started a thesis. It felt like a different world. Like there weren't as many companies making gravel bikes. Mm-hmm. And now it's just like it was the early days. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Everybody has a gravel bike. I ride in order I, one of my road bike that I've written tens of thousands of miles on is a 2007 frame where Baya Orca just, I had bought the frame and I built it up with Campy and built all these, it's a Franken bike. Right. I've spent more time on that bike than I have with anything in my life other than my cats. And, uh, And they now make a gravel bike or bay. Oh yeah. Every, and I'm like, what, what? How, how did they end up here? I, I [00:50:32] Randall Jacobs (host): used to define it as the, the multipurpose road bikes that the industry should have been providing to regular riders all along. Yeah. Like most riders don't need, you know, several different bikes for all the different purposes. Like a single bike, maybe with two wheel sets. Maybe with some features to, um, you know, make it adaptable to different types of riding, like a dropper and so on. I mean, that, that, that was the thesis. Yeah. I mean, not the only part of the thesis, but that was one of the core product thesis. Right. And why we, we called it as such. And, uh, I still feel that way. Yeah. Like I, I still have a single bike with two wheel sets, so I still drink my own Kool-Aid, I guess, in that regard. That's great. Um, how'd you get into riding? [00:51:16] Joe Concra: Oh, well, I was a disenfranchised youth. Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan made me ride a bike. Um, I think growing up, you know, we all have our own stories, right? And I, I'm not a big fan of people. It's a big push these days, it seems. Everybody has to tell their story, right? It's just like kind of whatever. Everybody has the same damn stories. At the end of the day, we're all just trying to survive. So, But I found the bike because I was a disenfranchised youth. That's the, that's the broad stroke of it all. And I was just like, I need to get outta here. I just need to get outta here. And I remember my first bike in a paper route, I think in Philadelphia where I had a paper route when I was a really young kid. And just riding around the streets early in the morning, tossing paper newspapers. Remember newspapers? No, no. Nobody remembers newspapers. I do. All right. I delivered papers too. Excellent, excellent. I'm Ask Walham, Walham News Tribune, Massachusetts, right? I think I was the first. My sisters did as well. What the, what is [00:52:14] Randall Jacobs (host): sometimes when I wasn't doing the route that I was supposed to, what was it called? The Wal News Tribune. Oh, [00:52:19] Joe Concra: I love that. I just heard that a nonprofit bought 11 out of the 12 independent newspapers in Maine yesterday to keep them alive. That's pretty [00:52:28] Randall Jacobs (host): cool. That's much better than Sinclair or some other conglomerate [00:52:31] Joe Concra: right. So there's now 11 of the 12 newspapers in Maine will survive as a not for pro anyway. I, I digress. Throwing newspapers and then, um, uh, you know, remember the, the mo there was a movie Breaking Away. Yeah. Right. And as an Italian American that kid's singing in Italian in the beginning of the movie. And then being a cutter and like being an outcast and not in the, the college, I was always an outcast. I was totally never comfortable wherever I was, I became a painter, like nobody, whatever. So I discovered bikes really early on, and it just got me out of whatever bad situation I was in. Hmm. And that to me, that was always the escape machine. So even now when I leave my front door, I can go do a 30 mile gravel ride now and never have to hit a road. And I always feel so much better when I come back, cuz now it's all in my head. [00:53:22] Randall Jacobs (host): Unfortunately at this point, the software we were using, having to cut out. So while the conversation continued for quite some time, we don't have the rest to share with you. However, if you'd like to join us at the O positive festival, whether for the rides or the festival itself, you can visit opositivefestival.org or reach out to Joe or myself in the ridership. So with that, I hope you've enjoyed the episode and as another dear friend of mine likes to say. Here's to finding some dirt. Under your wheels.    

Each episode of Reorg's weekly EMEA Core Credit podcast series features detailed discussions on issues and companies across the credit lifecycle. This week's podcast includes discussions on: -Lycra's “quasi drop-down” transaction and what it means for liability management transactions in Europe; -Telecom operator Altice looks to slash €4 billion of debt in 12 months; and -The potential sale of German pharmaceutical group Stada If you are not a Reorg subscriber, request access here: go.reorg-research.com/Podcast-Trial We're looking for feedback to improve the podcast experience! Please share your thoughts here: www.research.net/r/Reorg_podcast_survey For more information on our latest events and webinars: reorg.com/resources/events-and-webinars/ Sign up to our weekly newsletter Reorg on the Record: reorg.com/resources/reorg-on-the-record/ #leveragedfinance #highyield #restructuring #performingcredit #distresseddebt #debtrestructuring #leveragedloans

Each episode of Reorg's weekly EMEA Core Credit podcast series features detailed discussions on issues and companies across the credit lifecycle. This week's podcast includes discussions on: -Lycra's “quasi drop-down” transaction and what it means for liability management transactions in Europe; -Telecom operator Altice looks to slash €4 billion of debt in 12 months; and -The potential sale of German pharmaceutical group Stada If you are not a Reorg subscriber, request access here: go.reorg-research.com/Podcast-Trial We're looking for feedback to improve the podcast experience! Please share your thoughts here: www.research.net/r/Reorg_podcast_survey For more information on our latest events and webinars: reorg.com/resources/events-and-webinars/ Sign up to our weekly newsletter Reorg on the Record: reorg.com/resources/reorg-on-the-record/

Hello! As you lounged peacefully by a pool or sipped a drink with a little umbrella in it, have you ever wondered what a more *adventurous* summer holiday might look like? Let Ed and Geoff inspire you for your next cycling tour with this episode - Lycra optional! But is it really that easy to jump on your bike and take a trip? We hear from someone who's made a career of it with world-record holder Mark Beaumont. Recognising that most of us are not up for ultra endurance, we find out what some of the more realistic options are with Jill Warren from the European Cyclists' Federation. Finally we hear from two self-proclaimed former cycling novices, Abi Melton and Lea Cooper, who tell us about the highs and lows of their first cycling tour, and why it's never wise to bring a ukulele with you…Plus: Is Ed really the best-dressed politician? Let us know!GuestsMark Beaumont, long-distance cyclist and current world-record holder for the fastest cycle around the world (@MrMarkBeaumont)Jill Warren, CEO, European Cyclists' Federation (@JillWarrenECF)Abi Melton and Lea Cooper, Authors of Gears for Queers (Insta: @gearsforqueers)More informationCheck out Mark's website, his Komoot and watch videos of some of his records: the North Coast 500 and cycling round the world in 80 days (GCN Channel, Youtube)A video of Mark on his penny farthingMark mentioned British Cycling's Breeze Initiative for womenGet some inspiration for your next holiday on the EuroVelo websiteA bikepacking / cycle touring kit list from Tom's Bike Trip and bike costs from the Gears for Queers blogAbi and Lea's website, including some pictures of their very first tourBuy a copy of Gears for QueersAbi and Lea mention the Warm Showers website Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Pat's heading back from Vegas this morning...and the first flight out is already delayed. Great. It's JT's birthday and her knee is killing her, PLUS she got great news from the vet this morning! BIG DAY!Thanks to our podcast partner Centris Federal Credit Union!Get our email newsletter! --> HEREYou can rep our show! Buy some Pat and JT Podcast swag HERE!Subscribe, rate, and review our podcast wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss an episode! Also follow up on Facebook, Twitter, and InstagramA Hurrdat Media Production. Hurrdat Media is a digital media and commercial video production company based in Omaha, NE. Find more podcasts on the Hurrdat Media Network and learn more about our other services today on HurrdatMedia.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.