THE FOUR

LEAD HOST: Rev. Michael-Ray Mathews GUESTS: Reverends Rudy & Juanita Rasmus   Seeing Big Ma on the Mothers' pew of the church, crying her heart out in grief, gratitude and joy, left an indelible mark on me…as a child I knew something powerful and transformative was happening in the front of the church, on “the Mothers Bench.” -MRM    Conflating the Mother's & Mourner's bench as a child, Rev. Mathews has since envisioned ideas of grief, conquering fear, healing, joy and liberation that enflesh theology and hold much-needed space for trauma healing and transformation—not just in body, or mind or the abstracted spirit or soul— but the whole Black Body. The FOUR are joined by Rudy and Juanita Rasmus for a deeply personal and compelling conversation. They are pastors, authors and humanitarians with a passion for healing. Including their own.   Read more…   Once lost himself, (in his words, he owned “borderline bordello”), today Pastor Rudy co-leads St. John's Downtown Houston with his wife, Juanita, of 32 years.  From nine members in 1992, the church has grown to the thousands where people of every social and economic background share the pew. Pastor Rudy attributes success to tearing down the walls of classism, sexism, and racism, and building compassionate bridges of unconditional love, universal recovery, and unprecedented hope.  With generous support from government agencies and Beyoncé, Tina and Solange Knowles, St. John's offers permanent housing to formerly unhoused women and men; employment services, youth empowerment activities; and is one of few faith communities in the U.S. providing HIV/AIDS testing to churchgoers on Sundays. They also lead domestic and global anti-hunger initiatives in conjunction with Beyoncé's concert tours and distribute over nine tons of fresh produce weekly to hungry families in Houston.

LEAD HOST: Rev. Michael-Ray Mathews GUEST: Rev. angel Kyodo williams, Roshi Black contemplation and spirituality are a wellspring for the work of individual and social transformation. Drawing from his engagement with Rev. angel Kyodo williams, Roshi's seminal best-seller, Radical Dharma: Talking Race, Love and Liberation, Rev. Mathews leads The FOUR as they explore with their good friend how the spiritual ways of Black folk are reshaping practice for Buddhists and others committed to liberation.  

SHOUTIN' IN THE FIRE & FINDING FIERCE LOVE LEAD HOST: Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis GUEST: Dante Stewart   Best-selling author and new voice, Dante Stewart, stormed the scene with his personal story. In 2016, he was a rising leader at his predominantly white evangelical church. But then came Donald Trump and Dante quickly found himself isolated amid a people unraveled. He needed to leave his god box and Dr. Lewis challenges us to do the same.   Shoutin' In The Fire: An American Epistle, Dante's coming of age in a time of terror, calls us to reclaim and reimagine spiritual virtues like rage, resilience, and remembrance. Similarly, Dr. Lewis, in her new memoir, Fierce Love: A Bold Path to Ferocious Courage and Rule-Breaking Kindness That Can Heal the World, says we need to bravely disengage from the old image of God and leave the confined god box of the Black space. Both agree: We need faith that speaks truth to pain and trauma, and pursues a truer love than the kind we're taught.    Featured on CNN, The Washington Post, Christianity Today, Sojourners and more, Dante joins The FOUR to explore how these virtues might function against an unjust, unloving world. 

Join The FOUR in an absolutely hilarious few minutes down memory lane and those basement parties of yore. (You know the ones...and if you don't, you've really got to give this a listen!)  

LEAD HOST: Lisa Sharon HarperGUEST: Kristin Kobes Du Mez Kristin Kobes Du Mez catapulted to the top of the best-seller list with her book,  Jesus and John Wayne. A leading church historian, joins The FOUR in a real eye-opener for the team. Kristin pulls back the curtain on conservative white evangelical America to give us a behind-the-scenes look at the white evangelical movement, what got us to January 6th, and where we may go next. In sum, at times The FOUR were left speechless.  This episode features the track Hakodate Line by Blue Dot Sessions

BONUS MINUTE: "I will not hate." Dr. Otis Moss, Jr. shares a deeply moving experience with MLK, Sr.

LEAD CO-HOSTS: Lisa Sharon Harper and Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis GUEST: Rev. Dr. Otis Moss, Jr.   The FOUR continue the conversation with Reverend Dr. Otis Moss, Jr.  Globally revered, Dr. Moss is one of America's most distinguished leaders in the decades-long struggle for civil and human rights, health care, education and social justice. Join The FOUR for Part 2 of their conversation. Reverend Moss co-pastored with Rev. Martin Luther King, Sr. at the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, and was a board member and regional director of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) during Dr. King's tenure as founding president. He marched alongside Nelson Mandela against Aparteid. He served as an advisor to former President Carter at Camp David, and in 1994 he was the guest of former president Clinton at the Peace Treaty signing between Israel and Jordan; he served on President Obama's White House Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnership Council; and board member and trustee of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Center for Nonviolent Social Change.  Read more… Dr. Moss is the recipient of numerous awards, including:  Role Model of the Year Award from the National Institute for Responsible Fatherhood and Family Development (1992); Leadership Award from the Cleveland chapter of the American Jewish Committee (1996); Dr. Moss was bestowed the unique honor of the Lyman Beecher Lectureship on Preaching from Yale University (2004); and he was inducted into the 2007 Class of the International Civil Rights Walk of Fame. He holds six honorary degrees from colleges and universities in Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas; Morehouse College named a set of dormitory suites in his honor where he was also president of the Morehouse College Board of Directors for nearly a dozen years. If his name sounds familiar, Otis Moss, Jr. is also “Pops”— dad to The FOUR's Otis Moss III, as well as Kevin Moss and Daphne Moss (deceased). Married to Mrs. Edwina Hudson Moss, they are the proud grandparents of five grandchildren and one great-granddaughter.  Because family history is legacy, we have a few books to share:   Preach! The Power and Purpose Behind Our Praise: America's premiere preaching father and son team, Otis Moss, Jr. and Otis Moss III, share their preaching, insight, and inspiration in their first-ever book together with sermons on social justice and other progressive Christian topics. Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World and How to Repair It All: Lisa Sharon Harper's odyssey to document 10 generations of her family — Black, white and Native American — in her newest book,  Fierce Love: A Bold Path to Ferocious Courage and Rule-Breaking Kindness That Can Heal the World: Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis' stories from her own life and those of her mentors and inspirations, are accompanied by nine daily practices for transforming ourselves, our communities, and our world at large.

LEAD CO-HOSTS: Lisa Sharon Harper and Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis GUEST: Rev. Dr. Otis Moss, Jr.   Where to begin? Reverend Dr. Otis Moss, Jr. is one of America's most distinguished voices, advocating for the achievement of education, civil and human rights, health care and social justice. His influence is global and revered. The FOUR are honored to invite Dr. Moss into a two part conversation with this influential and very special leader.  Reverend Moss co-pastored with Rev. Martin Luther King, Sr. at the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, and was a board member and regional director of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) during Dr. King's tenure as founding president. He marched alongside Nelson Mandela against Aparteid. He served as an advisor to former President Carter at Camp David, and in 1994 he was the guest of former president Clinton at the Peace Treaty signing between Israel and Jordan; he served on President Obama's White House Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnership Council; and board member and trustee of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Center for Nonviolent Social Change.  Read more… Dr. Moss is the recipient of numerous awards, including:  Role Model of the Year Award from the National Institute for Responsible Fatherhood and Family Development (1992); Leadership Award from the Cleveland chapter of the American Jewish Committee (1996); Dr. Moss was bestowed the unique honor of the Lyman Beecher Lectureship on Preaching from Yale University (2004); and he was inducted into the 2007 Class of the International Civil Rights Walk of Fame. He holds six honorary degrees from colleges and universities in Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas; Morehouse College named a set of dormitory suites in his honor where he was also president of the Morehouse College Board of Directors for nearly a dozen years. If his name sounds familiar, Otis Moss, Jr. is also “Pops”— dad to The FOUR's Otis Moss III, as well as Kevin Moss and Daphne Moss (deceased). Married to Mrs. Edwina Hudson Moss, they are the proud grandparents of five grandchildren and one great-granddaughter.  Because family history is legacy, we have a few books to share:   Preach! The Power and Purpose Behind Our Praise: America's premiere preaching father and son team, Otis Moss, Jr. and Otis Moss III, share their preaching, insight, and inspiration in their first-ever book together with sermons on social justice and other progressive Christian topics. Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World and How to Repair It All: Lisa Sharon Harper's odyssey to document 10 generations of her family — Black, white and Native American — in her newest book. Fierce Love: A Bold Path to Ferocious Courage and Rule-Breaking Kindness That Can Heal the World: Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis' stories from her own life and those of her mentors and inspirations, are accompanied by nine daily practices for transforming ourselves, our communities, and our world at large.

Catch another sneak peek into the word master, Michael Eric Dyson, as he joins The FOUR.

TheFOUR had a blast talking film with NPR's Josh Larsen. Catch a couple of minutes of the run-up to that interview here!

Catch a sneak peek into the remarkable mind of Michael Eric Dyson as he joins The FOUR.

LEAD HOST: Rev. Dr. Otis Moss III GUEST: Josh Larsen We know Jesus is a person of color, but Jesus is seen as white because it is Hollywood that holds the key to our imagination, and that imagination remains colonized. Justice cannot be confined to paper or a protest, it requires that we use our imagination to the fullest through dance, poetry, clay, paint—and film—and that's where director Barry Jenkins is upending Hollywood with his Black canvas. The FOUR explore the imagery and spirituality of Jenkins' filmmaking with Josh Larsen, co-host of NPR's Filmspotting, called the no. 1 podcast for the movie buff by The New York Times. Larsen is the author of Movies Are Prayers, and editor/producer for Think Christian, a website and podcast exploring faith and pop culture. You can follow Josh @larsenonfilm. And a film lover's bonus: The FOUR's very own Otis Moss III produces beautiful, captivating and poignant “sermonic films” at Unashamed Media. And while you're here, be sure to enjoy his unique “meditative story” at America's Jam Session.

LEAD HOST: Rev. Dr. Otis Moss IIIGUEST: Dr. Michael Eric Dyson The joyful ride continues with Part 2 of The FOUR's conversation with the dynamic genius of Dr. Michael Eric Dyson. Dyson once again takes The FOUR to school and to church. He gives his Detroit take on the performative, the great Black public intellectuals and artists of our time, and makes plain the recipe for success. 

LEAD HOST: Rev. Dr. Otis Moss IIIGUEST: Dr. Michael Eric Dyson Strap on your seat belts. The FOUR are joined by the one and only Dr. Michael Eric Dyson in a free-wheeling roller coaster of opinions, politics and brilliant impressions. His Detroit-earned dexterity will be sure to lift your soul. All we can say is, no longer confined to four minute clips on cable news, this 2-part episode is a must join event.   

LEAD HOST: Lisa Sharon Harper GUEST: Ruby Sales   “I never will talk about my ancestors as being back in the day as they are part of a continuum.” Few have worked harder to cut and mend the ties between oppressor and oppressed than the one and only Ruby Nell Sales. The FOUR are honored to be joined by this iconic human rights activist, public theologian, and social critic. She offers wisdom beyond words for all of us on the unconquerable strength of the Black spirit through history; the subversiveness of prayer; and the “social and spiritual cataracts that interfere with the way we see  ourselves.” Her resolute messages reverberate for future generations as she expresses concern for the false sense of freedom in the age of technocracy.  Ms. Sales witnesses profound strength in the American Black family, including her own. But for too many people of African descent, family stories were buried as a strategy to conquer us, and that toll remains to this day. It's something TheFour's Lisa Sharon Harper has taken on, documenting this nation's history through a richly researched 10 generations of her family story—Black, white and Native American—in her newest book, Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World and How to Repair It All. Like Harper's family story, Mama Ruby calls for repair through truth-telling, reparation and a measure of forgiveness to cut the ties that still bind. Ms. Sales' long fight for freedom began in the 1960s with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, SNCC, at Tuskegee University, as a student freedom fighter in Lowndes County, Alabama. And it nearly got her assassinated. Jonathan Daniels, a white freedom worker from Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, Massachusetts, pulled Sales out of the line of fire. But Daniels was shot and killed. The assailant was acquitted by an all white jury.   Ms. Sales has bravely been on the national scene since, dedicated to the work of racial, sexual, gender, and class reconciliation, education, and awareness. She's been a mentor to many, including members of The FOUR. Her current project, SpiritHouse, plays leading roles in public policy debates on poverty, prison industrial complex, the shrinking budget for human needs, voting rights, privacy and judicial issues, and neo-conservatism; train grassroots volunteers and staff; and houses SisterAll Programs that bring together Black women from all walks of life to renew their historical roles as a community of activists, spiritual guides, and leaders on the front lines of racial, economic, and human rights, using non-violence and participatory democracy to build up a 21st-century front-line crusade for racial justice. Among her many recognitions and awards: Certificate of Gratitude for her work on Eyes on the Prize; featured in Broken Ground: A Film on Race Relations in the South; in 1999, Selma, Alabama gave her the key to the city to honor her contributions there; 2000, Dan Rather spotlighted her on his “American Dream” series; 2009, named a HistoryMaker for her contributions to civic affairs; 2013, awarded the Samuel DeWitt Proctor Conference Living Legacies Civil Rights Recognition Award; and in 2014, Sales was inducted into the Martin Luther King Jr. Board of Preachers at Morehouse College. Ruby Sales knows our ancestors are part of our continuum. Should you wish to find your family story, advances in genealogy, DNA science and increased availability of documentation are making it possible for us to reclaim our histories. 

LEAD HOST: Rev. Michael-Ray Mathews GUEST: Rev. Michael McBride The Black Church PAC is a strategic initiative, answering the call to elect leaders committed to ending mass incarceration, defending the right to vote, curbing gun violence, and representing the equitable treatment of black and brown communities. The FOUR explore its creation and mission with Rev. Michael McBride, its recent impact on civic engagement, and its plans for the 2022 midterms. The FOUR also take this opportunity to celebrate 10 years of LIVE FREE under Rev. McBride's leadership, and the future of the struggle to end gun violence and mass incarceration. And while you're here, be sure to check out Otis Moss III's deeply moving short film about his grandfather's determination to vote in rural Georgia in 1946, an Oprah Super Sunday feature.

LEAD HOST: Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis GUEST: Kaliswa Brewster Sure she plays the “tough guy” characters on television shows such as Billions and Blue Bloods, but in real life, Kaliswa Brewster is a bright shining delight. A cancer survivor and marathon runner, this spirited and charming Black millennial actor, activist and influencer spoke with The FOUR about how this generation of movement builders navigates cultural boundaries and Black-led movements, and what we might learn from them. Millennials like Kaliswa embody what Dr. Lewis calls “a demanding, heart transforming, fierce love” that breaks through “tribalism” to find connection and community.  Walking the walk, Kaliswa's friendships, alliances, and sensibilities cross genres, ethnicities, genders and religion. She is living out what Dr. Lewis calls in her new book, Fierce Love: A Bold Path to Ferocious Courage and Rule-Breaking Kindness That Can Heal the World, a healing antidote to our divisive culture. It's ubuntu, the Zulu philosophy of “I am who I am because we are who we are.” Jesus' command is for us to love ourselves, our family, friends, neighbors, and the world. Dr. Lewis asks, what if we actually did that? Follow @kaliswa on Instagram and Twitter.

Meet The FOUR as we launch this unique fearsome faith foursome into the world! Come for some laughter and heartfelt conversation among friends; enjoy the GRAMMY Award-winning sound of Ranky Tanky (trust us, you'll be humming their tunes!); and hear more about what's coming up in Season One

Enjoy LISA SHARON HARPER as she reads a brief passage from her new book FORTUNE: How Race Broke My Family and the World, and How to Repair it All

Enjoy the REV. DR. JACQUI LEWIS as she reads a brief excerpt from her recent book FIERCE LOVE: A Bold Path to Ferocious Courage and Rule-Breaking Kindness That Can Heal the World