Podcasts about white evangelicals

Top headlines for Thursday, May 1, 2025In this episode, we explore the recent U.S. Supreme Court deliberations on whether Oklahoma can pave the way for a taxpayer-funded Catholic charter school, a case that could set a precedent for religious education nationwide. Then, we examine new polling data revealing strong support for President Donald Trump from white Evangelical Protestants, unpacking the reasons behind this demographic's loyalty. Plus, we highlight Sanctus Real's latest single, The Difference, as the band counters spiritual disillusionment with a powerful message of hope in Jesus. 00:11 SCOTUS hears arguments on taxpayer-funded Catholic charter school01:06 5 church leaders react to Shedeur Sanders' NFL draft controversy01:52 White Evangelicals most supportive of Trump 100 days in: Pew02:52 New River Bible Chapel pastor found dead at home03:37 Calif. church to appeal $1.2 million decision over COVID-19 fines04:34 Sanctus Real on offering hope through music05:32 ‘American Idol' contestants make bold stand for GodSubscribe to this PodcastApple PodcastsSpotifyGoogle PodcastsOvercastFollow Us on Social Media@ChristianPost on TwitterChristian Post on Facebook@ChristianPostIntl on InstagramSubscribe on YouTubeGet the Edifi AppDownload for iPhoneDownload for AndroidSubscribe to Our NewsletterSubscribe to the Freedom Post, delivered every Monday and ThursdayClick here to get the top headlines delivered to your inbox every morning!Links to the NewsSCOTUS hears arguments on taxpayer-funded Catholic charter school | Politics5 church leaders react to Shedeur Sanders' NFL draft controversy | SportsWhite Evangelicals most supportive of Trump 100 days in: Pew | PoliticsNew River Bible Chapel pastor found dead at home | U.S.Calif. church to appeal $1.2 million decision over COVID-19 fines | U.S.Sanctus Real on offering hope through music | Entertainment‘American Idol' contestants make bold stand for God | Entertainment

Top headlines for Thursday, April 24, 2025In this episode, we explore the U.S. Department of Justice's involvement in a Summit Church's religious discrimination lawsuit, shedding light on the complexities of religious freedom in local governance. Next, we examine serious allegations against the Atlanta Dream Center and Assemblies of God, where young missionary hopefuls claim they faced forced labor and poor living conditions, prompting questions about accountability within faith-based organizations. Plus, we analyze recent voting data showing a significant swing among non-white Evangelicals towards President Donald Trump in the last election, discussing what this means for the future of political affiliations within diverse religious communities. 00:11 DOJ backs JD Greear-led church's religious discrimination lawsuit01:08 Atlanta Dream Center accused of trafficking missionary hopefuls02:01 Mom silenced at Calif. city council meeting: 'We don't do prayer'03:00 Church rededicated to God after atheist hate crime attack03:53 Clint Pressley to be nominated for 2nd term as SBC president04:36 Trump gained ground with non-white Evangelicals: data05:23 John O'Leary's story of overcoming 100% burns hits big screenSubscribe to this PodcastApple PodcastsSpotifyGoogle PodcastsOvercastFollow Us on Social Media@ChristianPost on TwitterChristian Post on Facebook@ChristianPostIntl on InstagramSubscribe on YouTubeGet the Edifi AppDownload for iPhoneDownload for AndroidSubscribe to Our NewsletterSubscribe to the Freedom Post, delivered every Monday and ThursdayClick here to get the top headlines delivered to your inbox every morning!Links to the NewsDOJ backs JD Greear-led church's religious discrimination lawsuit | U.S.Atlanta Dream Center accused of trafficking missionary hopefuls | U.S.Mom silenced at Calif. city council meeting: 'We don't do prayer' | U.S.Church rededicated to God after atheist hate crime attack | Church & MinistriesClint Pressley to be nominated for 2nd term as SBC president | Church & MinistriesTrump gained ground with non-white Evangelicals: data | PoliticsJohn O'Leary's story of overcoming 100% burns hits big screen | Entertainment

Amy Hawk is a writer, a Bible teacher, and a YouTuber. She discusses why she chose to stand up to Donald Trump's corruption of the White Evangelical church. Purchase Amy Hawk's books: The Judas Effect: https://a.co/d/9xXOWnp Six Years in the Hanoi Hilton: https://a.co/d/4VKIKdp Pat Kahnke's Substack page: https://culturefaithandpolitics.subst... Pat Kahnke's books are available on Amazon: "A Christian Case Against Donald Trump" (2024): https://a.co/d/iVSTqny "MAGA Seduction: Resisting the Debasement of the Christian Conscience" (2020): https://a.co/d/1KNX3uQ

This episode will give you a look inside the mind of a Christian Nationalist. Kristian and the crew are joined by viral comedic content creator and author of "Star Spangled Jesus", April Ajoy. April was raised in the Christian Nationalist world. Now she has committed her work to dismantling the tradition that raised her for the good of humanity. Subscribe to Patreon Here: https://www.patreon.com/tfcvirtual Purchase full-length, uncensored episodes of the podcast here: https://www.patreon.com/tfcvirtual Register for Holy Smokes Chicago here: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/holy-smokes-chicago-march-2025-tickets-1235019389239?aff=oddtdtcreator Order "Star Spangled Jesus" here: https://linktr.ee/aprilajoy?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAabCnvA_k_GTHeDI5GCzJYG-91N2UUU4raM-pczJWcaOAvrxDuAh7LzaWdE_aem_5k0g2VdLDciPvSDujZWqIQ Get merch here: https://thefaithcommunity.org/merch-store Order Breaking All The Rules here: https://www.holysmokesmovement.com/batr-book-order   Video Chapters  00:00 - Intro and Highlights 04:55 - Part 1 Recap 07:00 - Star Spangled Jesus 08:44 - The One Rule 10:45 - The definition of Christian Nationalism 13:45 - What aspect of Christian Nationalism is the most concerning? 25:30 - White Women, Welch's and Witchcraft 32:49 - Oscars Prayer Party 37:00 - Christian Nationalist U.S. History 45:55 - All good Christians are Republican 57:40 - White Evangelicals in Black Face 1:03:39 - Seven Mountain Mandate 1:17:07 - Blackness over Christianity 1:20:41 - How to counter Christian Nationalism   The Faith Community is a groundbreaking, inclusive faith community where the traditional meets the transformational. It exists to challenge harmful religious norms while creating a safe, affirming space for spiritual seekers of all kinds. Through virtual connection, theological interrogation, and an emphasis on love and self-acceptance, TFC helps its audience find abundant life and community without compromising their identity.

Exit polls show that 81% of White Evangelicals voted for Donald Trump in this year, compared to 14% of Black Evangelicals. Guest “Bonhoeffer's Child” tries to make sense of this moment in American and church history in this week's extended episode that will leave you speechless. @bonhoefferchild

I presume many of you, like me, are feeling a deep swirl of emotions coming out of a week where we have witnessed the re-election of Trump. Honestly it feels so baffling to me that someone can so blatantly be a convicted felon, a misogynist, an authoritarian, completely void of compassion and empathy for vulnerable people…and with all this and so much more on full display and public record… still be worshipped and adored and actively chosen by a majority of voters. And one of the most disturbing realities is how many white Evangelical Christians unashamedly throw their support and indeed their votes behind this man. There's a strong argument to be made that Evangelical support for Trump in 2016 has been one of the major catalysts for people deconstructing faith and leaving the institutional church. The #exvangelical movement can largely be traced back to that election.White Evangelicals aren't solely responsible for Trump — and why he had such a clear majority of support in this election is beyond my ability or this podcast's ability to answer. And yet, this disturbing confluence of politics and religion and the questions it raises has obviously been very real and personal for many of us. And so this week I actually wanted to replay an earlier podcast conversation from a couple years back now, with David Gushee (that I think remains very relevant).   David has been one of the voices that has helped me understand the history that led to what American Evangelicalism is today. He has also been a strong advocate for defending democracy — and my second of two interviews with him was discussing his book ‘Defending Democracy from its Christian Enemies'. You may want to go back and listen to that though I understand if the wound feels too fresh right now (though of course the need to defend democracy only increases after this election result). But I actually wanted to revisit my first conversation with David, in which we mainly spoke about his book ‘After Evangelicalism' which asks where do you go when you've seen the ugliest manifestations of Evangelical Christianity and want none of that…but you still want a faith that makes sense and approaches the world in ethical, compassionate, just ways? David speaks so well about this.I'm reminded this week — as I often am — that the most important choice is not between theism or atheism. Between religious or non-religious. Christian or not Christian. The choice is what kind of Christian will I be? What kind of human will I be? What kind of neighbour will I be? Evil arrives under the guise of many labels. So too does love. And when we fail to see love through the most powerful leaders in this world — we might want to throw our hands up in despair. Yet, I think it only becomes more essential that we choose the alternate reality — the truer reality — of self-giving love lived out in our lives and neighbourhoods Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we'd love to hear from you.The Spiritual Misfits Survival Guide (FREE): https://www.spiritualmisfits.com.au/survivalguideSign up to our mailing list:https://spiritualmisfits.com.au/Join our online Facebook community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/spiritualmisfitspodcastSupport the pod:https://spiritualmisfits.com.au/support-us/View all episodes at: https://spiritualmisfits.buzzsprout.com

In the last US election, eight in 10 white evangelicals voted for Donald Trump. But now a small, yet vocal group of Christians are campaigning against him. Why?

Donald Trump's victory in the 2016 U.S. Presidential election might have been a surprise to some. But to historian Kristin Kobes Du Mez, it was the latest chapter in a long relationship between white American masculinity and evangelical Christianity. As the 2024 election draws near, Du Mez shares how exclusion, patriarchy, and Christian nationalism are the basis for the evangelical church.  

Independent investigative journalism, broadcasting, trouble-making and muckraking with Brad Friedman of BradBlog.com

Today, we're talking with veteran activist and theologian, the one and only, Lisa Sharon Harper! The conversation covers:-        Lisa's journey finding Jesus outside of Whiteness and White evangelicalism-        The centrality of advocating for political and institutional policy change to our faith in Jesus-        How respecting the image of God in all people is the starting point for following Jesus to shalom-        The unavoidable job we have to speak truth, even when it is costly-        Where Lisa finds her hope and motivation to keep going-        And after that, we reflect on the interview and then talk all things Springfield, Ohio and Haitian immigrants.Mentioned on the episode:-            Lisa's website, lisasharonharper.com/-            Lisa's Instagram and Facebook-            The Freedom Road Podcast-            Lisa's books, Fortune and The Very Good Gospel-            Make a donation to The Haitian Community Support and Help Center in Springfield, Ohio via PayPal at haitianhelpcenterspringfield@gmail.com.Credits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Lisa Sharon Harper: I would lose my integrity if I was silent in the face of the breaking of shalom, which I learned in Bosnia and Croatia and Serbia, is built on earth through structures. It doesn't just come because people know Jesus. Two thirds of the people in the Bosnian war knew Jesus. The Croats were Christian and the Serbs were Orthodox Christian, and yet they killed each other. Massacred each other. Unfortunately, knowing Jesus is not enough if you have shaped your understanding of Jesus according to the rules and norms of empire.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra. We have a great one for you today. We are talking to veteran organizer and theologian Lisa Sharon Harper, someone who a lot of you probably know and who was pretty big in both of our individual kind of stories and development as people who care about faith and justice when we were younger people, which you will hear about as we talk to her. We are going to be talking to her about the centrality of our voting and policy choices to our witness as Christians, the importance of integrity and respecting the image of God in all people when making difficult decisions about where to spend your resources as an activist, where Lisa gets her hope and motivation and a whole lot more.And then after the interview, hear our reactions to it. And we're also going to be getting into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our weekly newsletter that we send out to our subscribers. This week it will be all about Haitian immigrants to America in Springfield, Ohio. You will want to hear that conversation. But before we get started, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Please friends, remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber to support this show and get access to everything that we do. We're creating media that centers personal and informed discussions on politics, faith and culture that helps you seek Jesus and confront injustice. We are resisting the idols of the American church by centering and elevating marginalized voices and taking the entirety of Jesus' gospel more seriously than those who narrow it to sin and salvation. The two of us have a lot of experience doing this individually and in community, and we've been friends [laughs] for a good long time. So you can trust it will be honest, sincere, and have some good things to say along the way.If you become a paid subscriber, you'll get access to all of our bonus content, access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats with me and Sy, and the ability to comment on posts and chat with us. So again, please go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber today.Sy Hoekstra: Our guest today, again, Lisa Sharon Harper, the president and founder of Freedom Road, a groundbreaking consulting group that crafts experiences to bring common understanding and common commitments that lead to common action toward a more just world. Lisa is a public theologian whose writing, speaking, activism and training has sparked and fed the fires of reformation in the church from Ferguson and Charlottesville to South Africa, Brazil, Australia and Ireland. Lisa's book, Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World, and How to Repair It All was named one of the best books of 2022 and the book before that, The Very Good Gospel, was named 2016 Book of the Year by The Englewood Review of Books. Lisa is the host of the Freedom Road Podcast, and she also writes for her Substack, The Truth Is…Jonathan Walton: Alright, let's jump into the interview.[The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Lisa Sharon Harper, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yay, I'm so excited to be here, and I'm here with a little bit of a Demi Moore rasp to my voice. So I'm hoping it'll be pleasant to the ears for folks who are coming, because I got a little sick, but I'm not like really sick, because I'm on my way, I'm on the rebound.Sy Hoekstra: So you told us you got this at the DNC, is that right?Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes, I literally, literally, that's like what, almost three weeks ago now?Sy Hoekstra: Oh my gosh.Jonathan Walton: You've got a DNC infection. That's what that is.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Lisa Sharon Harper: I have a DNC cough. I have a DNC cough, that's funny.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So before we jump into our questions, I wanted to take a momentary trip down memory lane, because I have no idea if you remember this or not.Lisa Sharon Harper: Okay.Sy Hoekstra: But in January of 2008, you led a weekend retreat for a college Christian fellowship that Jonathan and I were both in.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, I do remember.Sy Hoekstra: You do remember this? Okay.Lisa Sharon Harper: Absolutely.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Lisa Sharon Harper: I remember almost every time I've ever spoken anywhere.Sy Hoekstra: Wow, okay.Lisa Sharon Harper: I really do. And I remember that one, and I do remember you guys being there. Oh my gosh, that's so cool.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Lisa Sharon Harper: Okay.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: You remember that. That's amazing.Sy Hoekstra: No, no, no.Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Hang on. Wait a minute [laughter]. We don't just remember it. Because, so you gave this series of talks that ended up being a big part of your book, The Very Good Gospel.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And you talked specifically about the difference between genuine and pseudo-community and the need to really address each other's problems that we face, bear each other's burdens, that sort of thing. And you did a session, which I'm sure you've done with other groups, where you split us up into racial groups. So we sat there with White, Black, and Latine, and Asian, and biracial groups, and we had a real discussion about race in a way that the community had absolutely never had before [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: And it actually, it is the opening scene of Jonathan's book. I don't know if you knew that.Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God, I didn't know that.Jonathan Walton: It is.Lisa Sharon Harper: Which one?Jonathan Walton: Twelve Lies.Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow, I didn't know that. Oh my gosh, I missed that. Okay.Sy Hoekstra: So it was a… Jonathan put it before, it was a formative moment for everybody and a transformative moment for some of us [laughter] …Lisa Sharon Harper: Oooooo, Oh my goodness.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: …in that we learned a lot about ourselves and what we thought about race, what other people thought about race. I will tell you that in the five minutes after the session broke up, like ended, it was the first time that my now wife ever said to me, “Hey, you said something racist to me that I didn't like.” [laughs] And then, because of all the conversation we just had, I responded miraculously with the words, “I'm sorry.” [laughter].Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God!Sy Hoekstra: And then we went from there.Lisa Sharon Harper: Miraculously [laughs]. That's funny.Sy Hoekstra: So I have lots of friends that we can talk about this session with to this day, and they still remember it as transformative.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my Gosh. Wow.Sy Hoekstra: All of that, just to lead into my first question which is this, a lot of people in 2016 started seeing kind of the things about White evangelicalism that indicated to them that they needed to get out. They needed to escape in some way, because of the bad fruit, the bad political fruit that was manifesting. You saw that bad fruit a long time ago.Lisa Sharon Harper: A whole long time ago.Sy Hoekstra: You were deep in the Republican, pro-life political movement for a little bit, for like, a minute as a young woman.Lisa Sharon Harper: I wouldn't… here's the thing. I wouldn't say I was deep in. What I would say is I was in.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Lisa Sharon Harper: As in I was in because I was Evangelical, and I identified with itbecause I was Evangelical and because my friends identified with it. So I kind of went along, but I always had this sense I was like standing on the margins looking at it going, “I don't know.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: You know what I mean? But I would say literally for like a minute, I was a believer. Maybe for like, a year.Sy Hoekstra: But my question then is, what were the warning signs? And then, separately from what were the warning signs that you needed to get out, who or what were the guiding lights that showed you a better way?Lisa Sharon Harper: My goodness. Wow. Well, I mean, I would say that honestly… Okay, so I had a couple of conversations, and we're talking about 2004 now. So 2004 also, this is right after 2000 where we had the hanging chads in Florida.Sy Hoekstra: Yep.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Lisa Sharon Harper: And we know how important voting is, because literally, I mean, I actually believe to this day that Gore actually won. And it's not just a belief, they actually counted after the fact, and found that he had won hundreds more ballots that were not counted in the actual election, in Florida. And so every single vote counts. Every single vote counts. So then in 2004 and by 2004, I'm the Director of Racial Reconciliation for greater LA in InterVarsity, I had done a summer mission project that wasn't really mission. It was actually more of a, it was a pilgrimage, actually. It was called the pilgrimage for reconciliation. The summer before, I had done the stateside pilgrimage. And then that summer, I led students on a pilgrimage through Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia asking the question, “How is shalom broken? And how is shalom built? How is it made?”And through both of those successive summer experiences, it became so clear to me, policy matters, and it matters with regard to Christian ethics. We can't say we are Christian and be, in other words, Christ-like if we are not concerned with how our neighbor is faring under the policies coming down from our government. We just can't. And as Christians in a democracy, specifically in America, in the US where we have a democracy, we actually have the expectation that as citizens, we will help shape the way that we live together. And our vote is what does that our vote when we vote for particular people, we're not just voting for who we like. We're voting for the policies they will pass or block. We're voting for the way we want to live together in the world.So in 2004 when I come back from Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, I'm talking with some of my fellow staff workers, and I'm saying to them, “We have to have a conversation with our folks about voting. I mean, this election really matters. It's important. ”Because we had just come through the first few years of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like Iraq had just erupted a couple years before that, Afghanistan the year before that. And we were seeing young men coming back in body bags and this war, which had no plan to end, was sending especially young Black men to die because they were the ones…and I know, because I was in those schools when I was younger, and I alsohad been reading up on this.They're the ones who are recruited by the Marines and the Army and the Navy and the Air Force, especially the army, which is the cannon fodder. They're the ones who are on the front lines. They are recruited by them more than anybody else, at a higher degree than anybody else, a higher percentage ratio. So I was saying we have to have a conversation. And their response to me in 2004 was, “Oh, well, we can't do that, because we can't be political.” I said, “Well, wait, we are political beings. We live in a democracy.” To be a citizen is to help shape the way we live together in the world, and that's all politics is. It's the conversations we have and the decisions that we make about how we are going to live together.And so if we as Christians who have an ethic passed down by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, and we have the 10 Commandments, which is like the grand ethic of humanity, at least of the Abrahamic tradition. Then, if we don't have something to say about how we should be living together and the decisions we make about that every four years, every two years, even in off year elections, then what are we doing here?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: Who are we? Like, what is this faith? What is this Christian faith? So that was my first real rub, because I had experienced the pilgrimage to reconciliation. I had seen, I had rolled through. I had walked on the land where the decisions that the polis, the people had made, had killed people. It had led to the death of millions of people. Thousands of people in some case. Hundreds of people in other cases. But when coming back from Bosnia, it was millions. And so I was just very much aware of the reality that for Christians, politics matters because politics is simply the public exercise of our ethics, of our Christian ethic. And if we don't have one, then we're… honest, I just, I think that we are actually turning our backs on Jesus who spent his life telling us how to live.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: And so that was, for me, literally that conversation with that staff worker was kind of my first, “Aha! I'm in the wrong place.” I needed to learn more about how this public work works. How do systems and structures and policies and laws work? So that's what actually brought me, ended up bringing me a year later, to Columbia University and getting my master's in human rights. And I knew, having had the background in the two pilgrimages and the work that we did on the biblical concept of shalom at the time, which was nascent. I mean, it was for me, it was, I barely, really barely, understood it. I just knew it wasn't what I had been taught. So I started digging into shalom at that time, and then learning about international law and human rights and how that works within the international systems.I came out of that with a much clearer view, and then continued to work for the next 13 years to really get at how our Christian ethics intersect with and can help, and have helped shape public policy. And that has led me to understand very clearly that we are complicit in the evil, and we also, as Christians, other streams of our faith are responsible for the redemption, particularly in America and South Africa and other places in the world.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So I think I'm placing myself in your story. So I think we intersected in that 2005, 2008 moment. So I've traveled with you.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, we had a good time. It was so much fun.Jonathan Walton: We did. It was very good. So getting to follow, watch, learn, just for me, has been a huge blessing. First with the book, with New York Faith and Justice, reading stuff with Sojourners, grabbing your books, gleaning different wisdom things for… it's something that I've wondered as I'm a little bit younger in the journey, like as you've operated in this world, in the White Evangelical world, and then still White Evangelical adjacent, operating in these faith spaces. And now with the platform that you have, you've had to exercise a lot of wisdom, a lot of patience and deciding to manage where you show up and when, how you use your time, how you manage these relationships and keep relationships along the way. Because you didn't drop people.Lisa Sharon Harper: I have. I have dropped a few [laughter]. I want to make that really clear, there is an appropriate space to literally shake the dust.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: I think what I have not seen you do is dehumanize the people in the places that you left.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, thank you. Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And that's hard to do, because most people, particularly my generation, we see the bridge we just walked across, and we throw Molotov cocktails at that thing [laughter].Lisa Sharon Harper: Y'all do. Your generation is like, “I'm out! And you're never gonna breathe again!” Like, “You're going down!” I'm like, “Oh my God…” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's quite strong with us [laughs]. And so could you give any pieces of wisdom or things you've learned from God about navigating in that way. Things that we can and folks that are listening can hold on to as things shift, because they will shift and are shifting.Lisa Sharon Harper: They always shift, yeah, because we are not living on a book page. We're living in a world that moves and is fluid, and people change, and all the things. So I think that the best advice that I got, I actually got from Miroslav Volf. Dr. Miroslav Volf, who is a professor at Yale University, and he wrote the book that really kind of got me into, it was my first book that I ever read that was a book of theology, Exclusion&Embrace. And when we went to Croatia, we met with him. We met with him in the city of Zadar on the beach [laughs], literally over lunch. It was just an incredible privilege to sit down with him. And I've had many opportunities to connect with him since, which has been a privilege again, and just a joy.But he said to our group, our little InterVarsity group. And that's not at all to minimize InterVarsity, but we had a real inflated sense of who we were in the world. We thought we were everything, and we thought we were right about everything. And so here we are going through Croatia, which had just experienced a decade and a little bit before, this civil war. And it wasn't really a civil war, it was actually a war of aggression from Serbia into Croatia, and it was horrible. And it turned neighbor against neighbor in the same way that our civil war turned neighbor against neighbor. So literally, these towns, you literally had neighbors killing each other, you just were not safe.So basically, think Rwanda. The same thing that happened in Rwanda, around the same time had happened in Croatia. And so Miroslav is Croatian, and the lines by which things were drawn in Croatia was not race, because everybody was White. So the lines that they drew their hierarchy on was along the lines of religion. It was the Croats, which were mostly Catholic, mostly Christian. Some not Catholic, they might have been Evangelical, but they were Christian. And then you had the Bosniaks, which were Muslim, and the Serbs, which were Orthodox. So that was the hierarchy. And when you had Milošević, who was the president of Yugoslavia, who was trying to keep that Federation together, Yugoslavia was like an amalgamation of what we now understand to be Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia.So he was trying to keep all of that together, and when he then crossed the lines, the boundary between Serbia and Croatia and invaded and just began to kill everybody, and the Serbs then went to his side, and the Croats went over here, and the Bosniaks were caught in the middle, and people just died. And they chose sides and they killed each other. And so we sat down to do lunch with Miroslav Volf, and in that context, interfaith conversation was critical. It was and is, it continues to be. One of the main markers of where you find healing, it's where you find interfaith conversation in Croatia and also Bosnia and Serbia. And so we, in our little Evangelical selves, we're not used to this interfaith thing.We think of that as compromising. We think of that as, “How can you talk to people and gain relationship with and actually sit down and…?” And he was challenging us to study this scripture with other people of other faiths, and study their scriptures. He was like, “Do that.” And so our people were like, “How can you do that and not compromise your faith?” And here's what he said. He said, “It's easy. Respect. It's respect, respecting the image of God in the other, the one who is not like me. That I, when I sit down and I read their scriptures with them, allowing them to tell me what their scriptures mean.” Not sitting in a classroom in my Evangelical church to learn what the Muslim scriptures say, but sitting down with Imams to understand what the Muslim scriptures say and how it's understood within the context of that culture.That's called respect for the image of God. And there's no way, no way for us to knit ourselves together in a society, to live together in the world without respect. That's baseline. That's baseline.Jonathan Walton: As I'm listening, I'm thinking, “Okay, Lisa made choices.” She was like, “We are gonna not just do a trip. We're gonna do a trip in Croatia.” And so as you're going on these trips, as you were having these conversations, you're making choices. There's decisions being made around you, and then you get to the decision making seat. And how that discernment around where to place your energy happens. So something that's at the top of mind for me and many people listening is Palestine.Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: So how did you decide at this moment that, “Hey,this is where my energy and time is coming. I'm going to Christ at the Checkpoint. I'm going to talk with Munther. I'm going to be there.”How did that rise to the surface for you?Lisa Sharon Harper: It's funny, because I have, really have been advised, and in the very first days of the conflict, I was advised by some African American leaders, “Don't touch this. Don't do it. You're going to be blacklisted.”Jonathan Walton: I heard the same thing, yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: “Don't do it. You're gonna find you're not invited to speak anywhere.” Da da da da. Sometimes these decisions are just made to say, “I am going to act in the world as if I don't know what the repercussions are, and I'm just going to do the thing, because my focus is not focused on the repercussions.” I mean, in some ways, in that way, I do think that my constitution is the constitution of a warrior. Warriors go to battle knowing that bullets are flying all around them, and they just choose to go forward anyway. Somebody who cared, and not just cared, but I think there's a moment where you begin to understand it's that moment of no turning back. It's the moment when you stand at the freshly buried graves of 5000 Muslim boys and men who were killed all in one day by bullet fire in Srebrenica.It's the moment that you drive through Bosnia and you see all of the graves everywhere. Everywhere, especially in Sarajevo, which experienced a siege, a multiyear siege by Serbia. And they turned the soccer field, which at one point was the focal point of the Sarajevo Olympic Games, they turned that into a graveyard because they ran out of space for the graves. When you roll through Georgia, and you go to Dahlonega, Georgia, and you go to the Mining Museum, which marks the very first gold rush in America, which was not in California, but was in Dahlonega, Georgia, on Cherokee land, and you hear the repercussions of people's silence and also complicity.When they came and they settled, they made a decision about how we should live together, and it did not include, it included the erasure of Cherokee people and Choctaw people and Chickasaw people, Seminole people, Creek people. And you walk that land, and the land tells you. It's so traumatic that the land still tells the story. The land itself tells the story. The land bears witness. When you stand on that land and the land tells you the story, there's a moment that just happens where there's no turning back and you have to bear witness to the truth, even with bullets flying around you. So with regard to Palestine, having done what now goodness, 20 years of research on this biblical concept called shalom, and written the book, The Very Good Gospel, which really lays it out in a systematic way.I would lose my integrity if I was silent in the face of the breaking of shalom, which I learned in Bosnia and Croatia and Serbia, is built on earth through structures. It doesn't just come because people know Jesus. Two thirds of the people in the Bosnian war knew Jesus. Two thirds. The Croats were Christian and the Serbs were Orthodox Christian, and yet they killed each other. I mean, massacred each other. Unfortunately, knowing Jesus is not enough if you have shaped your understanding of Jesus according to the rules and norms of empire. So we actually need international law. We need the instruments of international law. That's what stopped the war there. And they failed there too, but they also have been an intrinsic part of keeping the peace and also prosecuting Milošević. Solike making sure that some measure of justice on this earth happens, some shadow of it.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: And what are we told in scripture in Micah 6:8, walk humbly with God. Do justice. Embrace the truth. So I think that when I saw on October 7, the breach of the wall, the breach of the gate and then the massacre at the festival, I grieved. I really grieved. And I was scared, really scared for the nation of Israel, for the people who were there. And I began to ask questions, because I've learned the discipline of not dehumanizing. Because to dehumanize is to break shalom. It's one of the first things that happens in the breaking of shalom and the eradication of it. And so part of what I had to do if I was going to consider Palestinian people human was to ask what has happened to them that would cause them to take such violent and radical action. How did we get here? Is the question.And the narrative that I heard from Israel, from the state of Israel, from the leaders of the state of Israel, which had been marched against by their own people just the week before that, and weeks for like a month or two before that, they were trying to depose the leadership of Israel because they were trying to turn their state into a fascist state. I was watching that as well. Trying to take the power of the judiciary away so that they could increase the power of the Prime Minister. So what does it mean then? What does it mean that this happened? And I was listening to the way that the narrative that Netanyahu was giving and his generals and the narrative they were giving is, “These are monsters. They are terrorists. They are evil. They are intrinsically, they are not human.”And I knew when I saw that, when I heard that, I thought Bosnia. I thought Rwanda, where they called the other cockroaches. I thought South Africa, where they called Black people not human, monsters, who need to be controlled. I thought Native Americans, who were called savages in order to be controlled, in order to have the justification of genocide. I thought of people of African descent who were brought in death ships across the Atlantic to South America and Central America and Mexico and North America in order to be used to build European wealth and they were called non-human. And even according to our own laws, our constitution declared three fifths of a human being.So when I heard Netanyahu and his generals dehumanizing the Palestinians, I knew, that for me was like the first signal, and it happened on the first day. It was the first signal that we are about to witness a genocide. They are preparing us. They are grooming us to participate in genocide. And I, as a theologian, as an ethicist, as a Christian, would lose my credibility if I remained silent and became complicit in that genocide through my silence. Because having studied the genocides that I mentioned earlier and the oppressions that I mentioned earlier, I know that most of those spaces were Christian spaces.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: And they happened, those genocides and those oppressions were able to happen because Christians were silent.Jonathan Walton: Gathering all that up, I think… I mean, we've had Munther on this podcast, we've talked with him throughout the years. When he said, “The role of Christians is to be prophetic, to speak prophetic truth to power,” something clicked for me in that as you're talking about our witness being compromised, as you are saying, “Hey, let's ask this question, who does this benefit? What is happening?”Lisa Sharon Harper: That's right.Jonathan Walton: The reality that he said, “All of us are Nathan when it comes to empire. We are supposed to be the ones who say this is wrong.” And that resonates with what you said, like how can I have integrity and be silent? Genocide necessitates silence and complicity in that way from people.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. And here's the thing. How are you gonna go to church and sing worship songs to Jesus on Sunday and be silent Monday through Saturday witnessing the slaying of the image of God on earth. You hear what I'm saying?Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Lisa Sharon Harper: Like my understanding of shalom now is not just we do these things in order to be nice and so we live together. It is that shalom is intricately connected with the flourishing of the kingdom of God.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Lisa Sharon Harper: It is the flourishing of the kingdom of God.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: And the kingdom of God flourishes wherever the image of God flourishes. And the image of God is born by every single human being. And part of what it means to be made in the image of God is that humans who are made in the image of God exercise agency, stewardship of the world. And the most drastic example or practice of warfare against the image of God is war.Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs]. Absolutely.Lisa Sharon Harper: War annihilates the image of God on earth. It is a declaration of war, not only on Palestinians or Gazans or even Israel or the empire anywhere. It is a declaration of war against God. It is a declaration of war against God.Sy Hoekstra: A phrase that has stuck in my head about you was from one of the endorsements to your last book Fortune. Jemar Tisby described you as a long-distance runner for justice.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] That's awesome.Sy Hoekstra: That always struck me as accurate.Jonathan Walton: That is great.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Not a sprinter.Jonathan Walton: No.Sy Hoekstra: Not a sprinter.Lisa Sharon Harper: That was really pretty cool. I was like, “Oh Jemar, thank you.” [laughter]Jonathan Walton: I need that. We just in here. That's great [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So here's the question then, where does your hope and sustenance, how do you get that? Where does it come from?Lisa Sharon Harper: Honestly, it comes from focusing on the kingdom. Focusing on Jesus. Focusing on doing the kingdom of God. And when you do it you witness it. And when you witness it, you get hope. I mean, I've learned, even in the last year, an actual life lesson for me was hope comes in the doing. Hope comes in the doing. So as we do the kingdom, we gain hope. As we show up for the protests so that we confront the powers that are slaying the image of God on earth, we gain hope. As we speak out against it and form our words in ways that do battle with the thinking that lays the groundwork for ethics of erasure, we gain hope because we're doing it. We see the power.The kingdom of God exists wherever there are people who actually bow to the ethic of God. Who do it. Who do the ethic of God. You can't say you believe in Jesus and not actually do his ethic. You don't believe in him. What do you believe? He never said, “Believe stuff about me.” He said, “Follow me.” He literally never said, “Believe stuff about me.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Lisa Sharon Harper: He said, “Follow me. Do what I do. ”And that's ethics. That's the question of, how do we live together in the world?? So we do and we gain hope.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: I like that. That reminds me of Romans 5: There'll be glory in our suffering. Suffering produces perseverance, character, and character hope. It's like, it's not an intuitive thing necessarily, if you haven't done it before. But that's great, and that's a really, I like that a lot as a place for us to end [laughs]. To get out there and do it, and you will find the hope as you go.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: Can you tell us where people can find you or work that you would want people to see of yours?Lisa Sharon Harper: Absolutely. Well, hey, first of all, thank you guys so much for having me on, and it's been really a joy to start my day in conversation with you. Y'all can follow what I'm up to at Lisasharonharper.com. I live on Instagram, and so you can [laughter], you can definitely follow on Instagram and Facebook. And Freedom Road Podcast is a place where a lot of people have found the conversation and are tracking with it. And I'm always trying to have guests on that are pushing me and causing me to ask deeper questions. And so I really, I welcome you to join us on Freedom Road.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. I wholeheartedly second that.Lisa Sharon Harper: And of course, the books [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And of course, the books.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Fortune, Very Good Gospel, all the rest.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, exactly.Sy Hoekstra: Lisa Sharon Harper, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a delight.Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much.Lisa Sharon Harper: Thank you Sy. Thank you, Jonathan.[The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan, that was a fantastic discussion. Tell me what you are thinking about coming out of it?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I think one, is just it's just really helpful to talk with someone who's been around for a while. I think most of us… I'm 38 years old, but let's just say millennials and younger, we don't consume or receive a lot of long form content.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And we don't also engage with people who are willing and able to mentor us through difficult situations. We're getting sound bites from TikTok and Instagram and YouTube, and we don't get the whole of knowledge or experiences. So listening to Lisa talk about, “I grabbed this bit from L.A., I grabbed this bit from Palestine, I grabbed this bit from Croatia, I grabbed this bit.” We cannot microwave transformation. We cannot have instant growth. There is no, let me go through the side door of growing to maturity in my faithfulness and walk with Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: There is just doing it. And so when she said, “I find the hope in the doing,” you don't learn that unless you have done stuff. That's a big takeaway. I also appreciated just her take on the genocide in Palestine. And because she was mentored and has talked with Miroslav Volf, she knows what it smells like, because she's done the work in her own history of her own background. If you have not read Fortune, go read the book. The reason Black folks cannot find who we [laughs] come from is because they were enslaved and killed. The reason we cannot find the indigenous and native folks we were related to is because there was genocide. So there's these things.And she goes through that in her book, and to talk about how to wield our stories when we don't have one, or how to wield a story of tragedy to turn it into something transformative, is something I admire, appreciate and hope that I can embody if and when the time comes for myself, when I have collected and grown and have asked similar questions. I'm appreciative of what she had to say. And you know, I know I asked her the question about not burning things down, and so I appreciated that [laughs] answer as well. Like, there's just a lot of wisdom, and I hope that folks listening were able to glean as well.Sy Hoekstra: I totally agree with all that. I think all that was very powerful. And there isn't it… kind of reminds me of when her book we've mentioned a few times, The Very Good Gospel, came out. It came out in 2016, but like I said, when we were talking to her, the stuff that was in that book she had been thinking about for more than a decade at that point. And it was very clear. When I was reading it, I was like, “Oh, this is Lisa's bag—this is what she was talking to us about when we were in college in 2008.”Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: At that camp, but she'd been thinking about it for even longer than that. It was just like, you can tell when something isn't like, “Oh, I had to research this because I was gonna write a book about it, so I had to learn about it.” You know what I mean? You can tell when someone does that versus when someone's been soaking in a subject. It's like marinating in it for 12, 15, years, or whatever it was. She just has a lot of that stuff [laughs]. You know what? I just used the image of marinating and marinating and microwaving are very different things [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, that is true.Sy Hoekstra: One takes a lot longer.Jonathan Walton: Put a steak in a microwave, see if you enjoy it [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so I totally agree with all that. I came out of it thinking a lot about how the things that she said thematically kind of connected to some thoughts that I've had, but also just in terms of historical events. Because I told her this after the interview, when I moved to Switzerland in 2001 I was 13, my family moved over there. It was just at the end of the Yugoslavian Civil War, which was what she was talking about Bosnia and Croatia and Serbia. And Switzerland took in a ton of refugees from that war.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So my neighborhood, there was a big apartment complex. I mean, big for Swiss standards, kind of small honestly for American standards. But there's an apartment complex around the corner from my house that they had put a bunch of Bosnian refugees in. And their school was right down the road, the public school. And so my neighborhood in high school was like the kids playing around in the streets and in the playground or whatever were Bosnian refugees. And the combination of the three countries, Serbian, Croatia and Bosnia, used to be one big thing called Yugoslavia, right.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And the first two syllables of the word Yugoslavia were in Switzerland, a slur for anyone who was from that country. And there was just a ton of bigotry toward them, basically because they displayed poverty [laughter]. Like they were one of the most visible groups of poor people in Zurich. And again, like Lisa said, this wasn't about racism. Everybody's White. But you're talking about like there were ethnic differences and there was class differences. And people dismissed them for their criminality, or for how the young men would get in fights in bars and on the streets or whatever, and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know how a lot of refugees from the Somalian war ended up in Minneapolis and St Paul, just like where a lot of them were placed in the US, and then a lot of them moved into North Dakota.It's like, a lot of… which is where my family's from. I've been there a lot. I hear a lot of people talking about the politics in that region. And you would hear similar stuff about them, except that it was about race. That it was, “Oh, we have crime now because we have Black people and we haven't before.” I mean, obviously Minneapolis, they did, but not really in the parts of North Dakota that my family's from. And so it was this lesson for me about the thing that Lisa was talking about, respect for the image of God in all people and how when you bring people who are somehow differentiable [laughter] from you, somebody who's from another grid, you can call them a different class, a different race, whatever, we will find any excuse to just say, “Oh, these are just bad people,” instead of taking responsibility for them, loving our neighbor, doing any of the stuff that we were commanded to do by Jesus, to the stranger, the foreigner, the immigrant in our midst.We will find whatever dividing lines we can to write people off. It can be race, it can be poverty, it can be, it doesn't matter. It's not what we should actually be saying about poverty or violence, or the fact that people are getting mugged or whatever. What we should be saying is we have a bunch of people who just got here from a war torn society. They were cut off from education and job skills and opportunities and all kinds of other things. And this is, when you just stick them in a society that treats them like garbage, this is what happens every single time, without fail. And so what we need to do is [laughter] be good neighbors.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Treat people well and forgive when people wrong us and that sort of thing. And we just will find any excuse in the world not to do that. And it's because we are not starting from that place that Miroslav Volf, who I love by the way, said to Lisa, is the place where you have to start everything when it comes to these kinds of conflicts, which is respect for the image of God in other people. The fact that they didn't do that in Yugoslavia led to slaughter en masse, but it still happens when you leave and you put yourself in a different context. There's still that lack of respect, and it's still harming people, even when there's quote- unquote, peace.Jonathan Walton: This opens up another can of worms. But I thought to myself…Sy Hoekstra: Go for it.Jonathan Walton: …it's much easier to say, “I just don't want to help,” than it is to say, “This person's evil,” or, “These people are bad.” Because I think at the core of it, someone says, “Is this your neighbor?” Jesus says, “Is this your neighbor?” And the Jewish leader of the day does not want to help the Samaritan, whatever the reasoning is. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jonathan Walton: We're trying to justify our innate desire to not help our neighbor. As opposed to just dealing with the reality that many of us, when we see people who are broken and messed up, quote- unquote broken, quote- unquote messed up, quote- unquote on the opposite side of whatever power dynamic or oppressive structure that is set up or has just made, quote- unquote poor choices, some of us, our gut reaction is, I don't want to help them. And if we would just, I think just stop there, be like, “My first inclination is, I'm not interested in helping them.” And paused it there and reflected on why we don't want to do that internally, as opposed to turning towards them and making them the reason. Because they were just sitting there.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The person on the street who's experiencing homelessness was just sitting there. The one in 10 students in New York City that is homeless is just sitting there. They're just there. And so if we were able to slow down for a second and say, “Why don't I want this person to live in my neighborhood, in my own stuff? Well, I don't like change. I'm afraid of this being different. I'm uncomfortable with different foods. I'm afraid of my favorite coffee shop or restaurant being taken away. I'm uncomfortable around people of different faiths. I feel weird when I don't hear my language being spoken.” If we were able to turn those reflections inward before we had uncomfortable feelings, turned them into actions, and then justified those actions with theology that has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus, then I wonder what would be different. But that that slowing down is really hard, because it's easier to feel the feeling, react, and then justify my reaction with a divine mandate.Sy Hoekstra: Or just plug those feelings into stereotypes and all of the existing ways of thinking about people that we provide for each other so that we can avoid doing that very reflection.Jonathan Walton: That's all that I thought about there [laughs]. I'm going to be thinking about that for a while actually. So Sy, which tab is still open for you? We're going to talk about a segment where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. And remember, you can get this newsletter for free just by signing up for our mailing list at KTFPress.com. You'll get recommendations on articles, podcasts and other media that both of us have found that will help you in your political education and discipleship. Plus you'll get reflections to keep us grounded, from me and Sy that help keep us grounded every week as we engage in just this challenging work and together in the news about what's happening and all that.You can get everything I'm just talking about at KTFPress.com and more. So go get that free subscription at KTFPress.com. So Sy, want to summarize that main story point for us?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I mean, this is interesting, because when I wrote about this, which is the story about Haitian immigrants in Ohio, it was two days after the debate, and the story has only exploded since then, and I think a lot of people kind of probably have the gist of it already. But some completely unfounded rumors based on fourth hand nonsense and some blurry pictures of people that have nothing whatsoever to do with Haitian immigrants started spreading online among right wing conspiracy theorists saying, for some reason, that Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio were eating pets.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Stealing, kidnapping and eating the resident's pets.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And the absurdity of this story was immediately apparent to me being someone who married into a Haitian immigrant family, Haitians do not eat cats and dogs [laughs]. It's a ridiculous thing to have to say, but I say it because I understand, maybe you have no, maybe you know nothing whatsoever about Haiti and you think, “Well, I don't know. There are some cultures around the world where they eat animals that we think of as pets or that we don't think of as food or whatever.” And like, okay, fine, that's true. It's not Haiti, though.Jonathan Walton: Right [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: The idea of eating a cat or a dog to a Haitian is as weird to them as it is to us. I promise you, I've had so much Haitian food [laughter]. So basically this rumor spread, Donald Trump mentions that the debates and now there are Proud Boys in Springfield, Ohio, marching around with cat posters and memes. There are people calling in bomb threats to schools and to government buildings, to all other institutions in Springfield. The Haitian population is very afraid of Donald Trump. At this point, we're recording this on Friday, September 20, he has said that he will travel to Springfield, and basically everyone there has said, “Please do not do that. You're only going to stoke more problems.”And every last piece of evidence that has been offered as evidence, which was always pretty weak in the first place, has been debunked at this point. There was one, the Vance campaign just recent, the past couple days, gave a police report to the Washington Post and said, “See, we found it. Here's a woman who actually filed a police report that says that my Haitian neighbors took my cat and ate my cat.” And the Washington Post did what, for some reason Republicans never expect journalists to do, and actually did their job and called up the woman who said, “Oh, yeah, I filed that report, and then I found my cat in my basement, and they were fine.” [laughs]Jonathan Walton: Yes. In her house.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. And so I don't know, there have been a couple of blips like that where somebody is like, “See, I found evidence,” and then someone was immediately like, “That's not actually evidence.” There have been rumors of other rallies or whatever. It's basically just becoming a focal point and a meme for all of Trump and his supporters, immigration resentment.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: There was a story today about people in Alabama being concerned about, some small town in Alabama being concerned about becoming the next Springfield because they had 60 Haitian immigrants in their town of 12,000 people [laughs]. I don't know. It's all just bizarre. The main actual point though, around the actual immigration policy stuff, Gabrielle and a few other people, my wife's name is Gabrielle, and a few other Haitians that I've seen comment on this, keep bringing up the Toni Morrison quote about how racism is a distraction from actual issues.Jonathan Walton: That is literally what I was gonna read.Sy Hoekstra: There you go. Okay [laughs]. So the actual issue here is that there's this community of about 60,000 people in Ohio that has had an influx of about 15,000 Haitian immigrants, and so it's a lot of strain on the schools and housing and stuff like that, which those are real questions. But also, the Haitian immigrants are there because the local economy revitalization efforts led to a bunch of manufacturers coming into Springfield and having more jobs than laborers, and explicitly saying, “We need you to bring in more laborers.” And so they were Haitian immigrants who are legally in the country [laughs], who have social security numbers and temporary protected status at the very least if not green cards or whatever, have been filling these jobs, and not remotely even a majority of these jobs.They're just filling in the extra 10, 15 percent or whatever the workforce that these manufacturers thought they needed. And the story has become, “Haitians are taking our jobs,” which is absolute nonsense.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So those are the main points of the story. Sorry, I talked a while. I have a lot of feelings about this one [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No, I mean…Sy Hoekstra: But Jonathan, what are your thoughts?Jonathan Walton: For a good reason. Let me just say this quote by Toni Morrison, “The function, the very serious function of racism, is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining over and over again your reason for being. Somebody says your head isn't shaped properly, and you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary. There will always be one more thing.” So along with that Toni Morrison quote, I want to put that side by side with this quote from Robert Jones Jr.'s National Book of the Year, The Prophets.“To survive this place, you had to want to die. That was the way of the world as remade by the Toubab.” Toubab is a Western and Central African word for colonizer, European. “They push people into the mud and then call them filthy. They forbade people from accessing knowledge of the world, and then called them simple. They worked people until their empty hands were twisted and bleeding and can do no more, than they called them lazy. They forced people to eat innards from troughs, and then called them uncivilized. They kidnapped babies and shattered families and then called them incapable of love. They raped and lynched and cut up people into parts and called the pieces savages. They stepped on people's throats with all of their might and asked why the people couldn't breathe.”“And then when people made an attempt to break the foot or cut it off one they screamed, “Chaos,” and claimed that mass murder was the only way to restore order. They praised every daisy and then called every blackberry a stain. They bled the color from God's face, gave it a dangle between its legs, and called it holy. Then when they were done breaking things, they pointed to the sky and called the color of the universe itself a sin, [black]. And then the whole world believed them, even some of Samuel's [or Black] people. Especially some of Samuel's people. This was untoward and made it hard to open your heart to feel a sense of loyalty that wasn't a strategy. It was easier to just seal yourself up and rock yourself to sleep.”That to me, like those two quotes together. So the Son of Baldwin, Robert Jones Jr, great follow on Substack and that quote from Toni Morrison, an iconic Black female writer, wrote Beloved, The Bluest Eye, those two things together, like what racism does to a person. The giving up, the I just, “What can I do?” and the distraction for the people who do have effort, are just two roads that I wish we just didn't have to go down. But most people will spend our energy either resigned because we've spent too much or pushing against the lie as the powers that be continue to carry out genocide, continue to extract limestone from Haiti, continues to extract resources from Haiti, continue to destroy African economies through extraction in the Congo and Benin and all the places.And so my prayer and longing is that the resilience of the Haitian people and the legacy of Toussaint and all of that would be present in the people that are there and the diaspora. And I believe that is true. And I pray for safety for all of the people that still have to live in this, what is fastly becoming a sundown town.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jonathan Walton: It's a very real thing. And I talked to someone else. Oh, actually [laughs], it was a DM on Instagram that I sent to Brandy, and she agreed that there's a lot of PTSD from when Trump was president, because things like this got said every day.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: All the time. And downstream of rhetoric are real actions, like lawyers and taxi drivers being mobilized to go to the airport to try and get the, quote- unquote, Muslim banned people now representation and get them to their destinations. You had very real terrible child separation that happened, that children are still separated from their families right now. And so downstream of all this stuff, are real, real concrete actions. And I am praying that… my daughter asked me this morning, Maya, she said, “Do I want Trump to win, or do I want Harris to win?” And I said, “Maya, I hope that Trump does not win.” She goes “Well, if Harris wins, will it be better?”I said, “It depends on who you ask, but I think there will be a better chance for us to move towards something more helpful if Trump does not win.” And then she said she knew some people who are supportive of Trump, and I told her things that her eight year old brain cannot handle.Sy Hoekstra: But wait, what does that mean? [laughs]Jonathan Walton: I just started breaking down why that is because I couldn't help myself.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, why people support him.Jonathan Walton: Why people would support him.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, okay.Jonathan Walton: And then she quickly pivoted back to Story Pirates, which is a wonderful podcast about professional improvisational actors telling kid stories like Cecily Strong and things like that. It's hilarious. But all that to say, I think this is a prime example of the type of chaos and environment that is created when someone like Trump is president and the cameras are on him at all times. And I hope that is not the reality, because he absolutely does not have any meaningful policy positions besides Project 2025. I don't know if you saw… I'm talking a lot. He was in a town hall in Michigan, and someone asked him what his child care policies were. Like what actionable policy does he have? And he said a word salad and a buffet of dictionaries that you don't know what he was talking about.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It was nonsense that somehow ended up with immigration being a problem.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so I think that the worst factions of our country will have a vehicle to live out their worst fantasies about deportations and violence and racism, White supremacy and patriarchy and all those things, if he becomes president. And that's really sad to me, and I think it's a preview of that is what's happening in Springfield right now.Sy Hoekstra: Here's another angle on this. And it fits into everything you just said, but it's just from a different angle, bringing a little bit of Haitian history here. The Haitian Revolution is probably, I can't say that I've read everything to guarantee this, is probably the greatest act of defiance against White supremacy that the world has ever seen. For those who don't know, it happened right after the American Revolution, it was just the enslaved people of the island of Saint-Domingue, which is now Haiti in the Dominican Republic, rising up and overthrowing the French and taking the island for themselves and establishing, like writing the world's second written constitution and establishing basically the world's second democracy.Really the world's first actual democracy [laughs] if you think about how American democracy was restricted to a very small group of people. If you read things that people in colonial governments or slave owners throughout the Western Hemisphere wrote and like when they spoke to each other about their fears over the next decades before slavery is abolished, Haiti is constantly on their minds.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: They never stop talking about it. It's actually mentioned in some of the declarations of secession before the Civil War. When the states wrote why they were seceding, it was like, “Because the Union wants Haiti to happen to us.” For the plantation owners to be killed. It was an obsession, and so the colonial powers in Europe, you may have read some of the work that the New York Times did in the New York Times Magazine last year, maybe it was two years ago, about this. But the amount of energy from European powers that went into making sure that Haiti as a country never had access to global markets or the global economy, that they were constantly impoverished.They were still finding ways to extract money from Haiti, even though it was an independent country. The fact that the US colonized Haiti for almost 20 years in the early 20th century, like the ways that we have controlled who is in power in their government from afar. We've propped up some of the most brutal dictators in the history of the world, honestly. We have been punishing and making sure that everybody knows that the defiance of white supremacy that Haiti showed will never be tolerated.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And so it is so easy for Haitians at every stage to become a scapegoat for whatever anxiety we have about the world becoming less White, the world becoming less of like under our control. Haitian immigrants were the reason that we started using Guantanamo Bay as a prison. They were the first people that we ever imprisoned there. We changed our policies, we like… Do you know for a long time, they wouldn't let Haitian people donate blood in America?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Because we said they'd had HIV. They had dirty blood, is what we said about them for years. Haiti is not at the bottom because of its choice. That's what we're constantly telling ourselves. Pat Robertson went on his show after the earthquake in 2010, and said the reason that these things still happen to Haiti is because they did Voodoo before their revolution, because they're pagans or whatever. We will make up any reason to not just take responsibility. Again, like with the Bosnians, the Somalis, we make up any reason to not just take responsibility for our actions.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And this is just a continuation of that. And I don't know that I have a further point beyond that, other than to say, everything that Trump and Vance and the Proud Boys and all of them are doing in Springfield right now is just a continuation of that. “You're immigrants that we will call illegal, even though you're not right and you are Black. Your whole pride in your culture and your history is about the way that you defied White supremacy, and you're foreign to us, and you are strange. And we will say that you do things like eat cats that you don't do, and we will just believe it, because we don't actually want to know anything about you other than that you are a monster who defies the way that the world should be ordered.”Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: I'm trying to stop myself from tearing up right now, and I don't know that I have points beyond this. Do you know what I mean? I'm just angry because this is like people, this is my wife and my daughter. I'm probably just taking time now to do what I should have done earlier in this process, which is just feel all the sadness and the anger. But that is what I feel. The Trump and Vance and the people that are a part of his movement are just horrifying. The fruit of their way of seeing the world is just evil, and I think that's where I'm leaving it for now [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places. And the very thing that Haitian people are called, evil, voodoo all those things, is what White supremacy is.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: That is evil, and that is wicked, and it has been at work for centuries. And in Jesus name, as Connie Anderson would pray in the work she does with White people around White supremacy and leaving that behind, and she says she just prays that it would be overthrown. That demonic power would be overthrown, and people would be disobedient to that leaning.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I pray the same would be true for many, many people before and after the polls close on November the 5th.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. So in the newsletter, I put an email address where you could send a PayPal donation to the local Haitian community center. We'll have a link to that in the show notes too. The Haitians on the ground, especially some of the pastors and the churches there, are doing some incredible work to try and keep the peace. I think people have been overlooking that. There was a decent Christianity Today article on kind of what's going on the ground in Ohio, but it really focused on what the local White churches are doing to help [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I really need people to focus on the Haitians, like what is actually happening there, and the fact that there are White supremacists marching around the town. And how terrifying that has to be for them, and how the people who are doing the work to keep the peace there are heroic, and they should not have to be. And they deserve all of our support and all our prayers. So I appreciate anything that you can, any intercession that you can do, any money that you can give. Any support that you can be. Any help that you can be just spreading the truth to people who may not be wanting to hear it or who might not be hearing it from their news sources right now,Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We're gonna end there, then. Thank you so much for listening. Please remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber and support everything we're doing, the media that we're making here. Get the bonus episodes to this show, come to our monthly Zoom calls to have a chat with me and Jonathan about everything that's going on in the election. Bring us your questions, get access to comments on our posts and more pl

White evangelicals are among the largest voting groups in America. They tend to vote Republican. Has this tendency always been the case? And what about white evangelical Democrats? Ryan Burge joins Thom and Sam on an election season special to discuss evangelical voting trends. The post The Burge Report: What Happened to All the White Evangelical Democrats? appeared first on Church Answers.

Independent investigative journalism, broadcasting, trouble-making and muckraking with Brad Friedman of BradBlog.com

Today, we're talking all about the recently-released Confession of Evangelical Conviction:-        What the confession is and what it says-        Why we signed it and got involved promoting it-        How the American church got to the point where a confession of very basic political theology like this is necessary-        And after that conversation, we talk the many layers of Christian nationalism involved in the debacle at Trump's recent trip to Arlington National CemeteryMentioned on the episode:-        The Confession of Evangelical Conviction, and the associated resources-        The video we produced to promote the confessionCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: When we first started doing this work and we published our anthology, we went on a couple of podcasts about it. A common thing that people asked of us at the time was, where do you think the White American church, where do you think the like 81 percent of the church, the White evangelical church that voted for Trump is going? And the first time I said it, I sort of surprised myself and I was like, look, it's being cut off the vine for not bearing good fruit and thrown in the fire. There's been a long time coming of a divorce, like a complete split between White evangelicals in America and followers of Jesus.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: We have a great show for you today. We're doing something a little bit different. We are talking about a bit of a movement, a little, a confession that we have signed onto that we're a part of that we're producing some media around that you may have seen by the time this episode comes out. And it's a confession of sort of evangelical faithfulness to Jesus in a political context. And it is probably a little bit off the beaten path of kind of some of the political commentary that we normally engage in. And we wanted to talk to you about why we think it is a good and strategic thing for us to do during this season, give you some of our thinking behind how we kind of strategize politically and think about ourselves as part of a larger theological and political movement.So I think this will be a really good conversation. We're also gonna get into our Which Tab Is Still Open and talk to you about Christian nationalism and whiteness through the lens of Donald Trump doing absurd things at Arlington National Cemetery [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: But we will get into all of that in a moment. Before we do, Jonathan Walton.Jonathan Walton: Hey, remember, if you like what you hear and read from us at KTF Press and would like for it to continue beyond the election season, I need you to do two things. Go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Now, you could also tell other people to do that as well if you've already done that. We've got a ways to go if we're going to have enough people to sustain the work, but we think it's valuable, and I hope you do too. So go to KTFPress.com, sign up, and that gets you all of the bonus episodes of this show, access to our monthly Zoom calls with the two of us and more. So again, KTFPress.com. Become a paid subscriber.What is the Evangelical Confession of Conviction, and Why Is KTF Involved?Sy Hoekstra: All right, Jonathan, let's get started in our conversation. We've signed onto this document called The Confession of Evangelical Conviction. We've produced some media around it. First of all, what is it and what does it say?Some Basic Political Theology That We Need to Restate at This Cultural Moment with UnityJonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I think the question of what it is, it's words [Sy laughs]. Like there's these things that we put together, it's words. And I think the reason that it's powerful is because of when and how it's said. And so these are basic confessions that every Christian should believe, but it seems like the reason that we're doing it right now and that I've signed onto is because there are seasons when the discipleship and formation of the church needs to be plain and centered. And so being able to say, “I give allegiance to Christ alone,” and then have that be reverberated across denominations, across movements of quote- unquote, Christians around the country that are usually so disparate, they usually don't communicate, they usually disagree with each other in very public ways, to say, “Hey, hey, hey.”We need people to understand who don't follow Jesus, that when Gandhi said, “I like Christ, I don't like Christians,” that's part of the problem. We are part of that problem. Where we don't articulate what we know, what we believe, what we know to be true. I think this is an articulation of that, speaking particularly to a cultural and political and social moment that needs the clarity that Jesus can bring.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. So this is just to get into the weeds of it. It's a confession signed by I would say, the sort of extreme ends, at least to the people that we know about right now, I don't know who's gonna sign it in future, but center-right to more progressive left. And the basic confessions, like the seven statements of the confession are, “We give our allegiance to Jesus Christ alone. We will lead with love, not fear. We submit to the truth of Scripture. We believe the Gospel heals every worldly division. We are committed to the prophetic mission of the Church. We value every person as created in God's image.” And “We recognize godly leaders by their character.” So this is very basic theology [laughs] like you said. And you got a little bit at why it matters to put this out there, why we are involved. I agree with you. I think it's more about the context and it's also about who is saying it more than it is about the content.Because, and by the way, we should say we are giving you our reasons for signing this and why we think it's important. This is not… like there's a group of people that were involved in writing it, so there's lots of people involved who we don't know precisely why they signed [laughs] or precisely why the people who wrote it decided it was necessary. We're talking to you about our opinions. So to me, if you have something that says we pledge our allegiance to Christ alone, that's a rebuke of Christian nationalism to me.We judge godly leaders by their character, that's a rebuke of people who argue that Trump is a godly leader or a leader who has been appointed by God in some way or another. So those are important things to say. And it's with people across a pretty big spectrum of, as I said, the political range. Would Jonathan and I go a lot further than this if we said what we thought is important for political discipleship? Yes, we would, and you know that, because you've heard our other episodes. Or if you haven't, go listen to our other episodes [laughs]. We would go a lot further than that, yes. But we think, I think it's good to work with a broad range of people during a political campaign.Reaching a Broad Audience and Pushing the American Church to ChangeSy Hoekstra: Like I think when you're talking about discipleship at a moment when tensions are extremely high around theology and politics, it is good to do these kinds of things where you are trying to scale your efforts.Where you're trying to reach as many people as possible in the hopes that you will change some minds, both so that they will more faithfully follow Jesus, and in this specific context, so they won't vote for Donald Trump. That's one of my personal reasons for being involved in this [laughs]. And that's how you do campaigns in general. That's how campaigns operate. You try and call as many people as you can. You try and put commercials out there as widely as you can toward your targeted audience, whatever. Not in the hopes that the vast majority of the people who see it are going to suddenly be like, “Oh my goodness, I agree with everything you say,” but in the hopes that you'll reach enough of the people whose minds you can change to make a difference in their decision when it comes to November.You will reach them and you will start to be one of the people who affects their choices, is what I'm trying to say. So I don't know, that's kind of the strategy of it from my point of view. It is a similar way of thinking to me from the anthology. When we published the anthology four years ago, it was different because we were letting people say their own beliefs. And it was people from all over the spectrum kind of saying why they weren't voting for Trump in whatever way they saw fit [laughs], on whatever topic they saw fit. That was our approach. But this is the way some other people are going to do it, and we're gonna be happy to work with them in that way.Jonathan Walton: I think for me, I see the political strategy of it. I see the strategery that's happening, to use a word from SNL. My hope is that…Sy Hoekstra: From SNL 25 years ago [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. My hope… [laughs]. It was such a great sketch. “Strategery,” it was so good. “I'm the decider” [Sy laughs]. So I think one of the things that stands out to me, particularly in reviewing it more and assign it and then come on board, is, I hope that this is a Belhar Confession type moment for the United States and followers of Jesus. Particularly, because when we look at the Dutch Reformed Church, the Dutch Reformed Church was the theological backbone and framework for apartheid in South Africa. They gave the covering for those things to happen. It gave theological and moral legitimacy to a movement that was oppressive, violent, exploitative, and un-Christian at every level. Because there are Christian leaders who are willing to say, “You know what? This is really good. This is actually right. This is good and just, and God intended this.” And we have the exact same type of nonsense happening in the United States.There are quote- unquote, prophets and apostles and preachers and teachers and publishing houses and Amazon independent book publishers rolling out materials that say, “America first.” America is the kingdom of God. America is the kingdom of heaven. America is this baptized land on the earth, as opposed to being a land that is rooted in land theft, genocide, violence, patriarchy, greed and exploitation. Which it is that. It's actually not the kingdom of God at all. And so I hope that this creates a groundswell that goes beyond November 5th and beyond January 20th. And could this be a pivot point of orientation for people who followed Jesus to say, “You know what? Actually Jesus didn't say any of that.” If all of these people, right, left, middle, above, otherwise are saying this, maybe I should consider. “Oh, Randall Balmer said that, and Mercy Aiken” [Sy laughs]? “Shane was there too? Alright. Shane is on the same page as Curtis Chang and Sandra Van Opstal? Alright, let me jump in and get on this.” That's what I hope happens, is that it becomes impossible to avoid the question of allegiance to Jesus, or allegiance to the United States. Just like in South Africa the question was, are you pledging allegiance to apartheid or are you gonna follow Jesus?Sy Hoekstra: I totally agree with that. And I would say that it is 100 percent in line with the sort of premise of this podcast, which is helping people shake the dust and walk away [laughs] from the places where the word of God is not accepted as Jesus put it. And you let your peace return to you and you move along on your way.Jonathan Walton: Yes.How Did We Get to the Point Where This Confession Is Necessary?Sy Hoekstra: So let's actually talk about that thing that you were just saying. The thing where all these people from these different walks of life are coming together to make this specific statement at this time. How did we get here, aside from the obvious thing that Donald Trump is very good at uniting people who oppose him [laughter]. How did we get to this point in the church in America?Jonathan Walton: I think we need to narrow the scope a little bit.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: Of how we got to this point, I think I would start at Acts 2 [laughter]. But, and then the church and then the alliance with the empire to escape persecution. Constantinople like Nicea, I mean…Sy Hoekstra: Let's focus on America.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, let's focus on the United States.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Zoom in a little bit.The Moral Majority Took Us Very Far down a Path Away from JesusJonathan Walton: I think that one of the pivot points in the United States is 2008 in the ascendance of Barack Obama. With Barack Obama, you have what was roiling and starting with Al Gore, but like can Christians vote for Democrats and still be Christians? Because with the ascendance of the moral majority, with what Randall Balmer talks about this coalescing around abortion as a position, and then the policies laid out by Jerry Falwell. And there was a conference in 1979 in Houston. Lots of organizations came out of that gathering. And so when those types of things occur, I think we are living in the wake of that wave, but that wave wasn't really challenged until 2008 when many, many, many, many people said, “Oh, I wanna vote for Barack Obama.”And so with the ascendance of Obama, then the question particularly among the Black community from evangelical Christians is like, can you be a Christian and vote for Obama? And that was talked about extensively in Tamice's book, Faith Unleavened, which is amazing. And that scene that she describes of the dissonance between the White evangelical church that she was sitting in, and the conversation she was having with her grandma on the phone, who she called Momma.Sy Hoekstra: Where her family was having a party because Obama had been elected and her White church was having a mournful prayer service.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I think a lament session basically, for the United States being now overtaken by a demonic force. And so I think if we start there and move forward, like if this was a ray coming from a point, then the line actually starts to diverge from there, from the center point. And now we are actually so far apart that it's very, very difficult to justify what's happening. So if we're at our end points right now, we have followers of Jesus legitimizing sexual violence by saying Trump is fine. You have followers of Jesus legitimizing fraud, saying that that's fine. You have followers of Jesus legitimizing insurrection, saying that's fine. We are way, way down the road and very far apart from these basic confessions.And so I think people that are co-opted and indoctrinated by Fox News and the conservative White evangelical and conservative Catholic and conservative… because there's a smattering of Christian movements that have so aligned themselves with political power that it is very apparent even to non-Christians, that this is not Christ-like. And so I think for us, similar to the church in South Africa, to say, “Hey, we need to just make very plain every person is made in the image of God, and you shouldn't enslave, violate and steal from people.”If we could articulate that and do that, and have a movement around that, then I think that is how we got here, is that basic tenets of following Jesus have stayed the same, but forces, institutional, the powers, the principalities, and also people who chose to align themselves with that have taken the ball and run so far down the road that even people who don't follow Jesus and folks who just have basic biblical engagement are seeing that this is just not the way. And so I think followers of Jesus across the spectrum are starting to say, “You know what? This is a moment that we can actually speak into.”The White Evangelical ChurchA Divorce between White Evangelicals and Followers of JesusSy Hoekstra: Yeah, I agree with all that. I think, I mean, look, when we first started doing this work and we published our anthology, we went on a couple of podcasts about it. A common thing that people asked of us at the time was, where do you think the American church, where do you think the like 81 percent of the church, the White evangelical church that voted for Trump is going?” And the first time I said it, I sort of surprised myself, but I was like, “Look, it's being cut off the vine for not bearing good fruit and thrown in the fire.” That's it. There's been a long time coming of a divorce, like a complete split, I think, between White evangelicals in America and followers of Jesus.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: White evangelicals have had a whole long history of being involved in, as you said, in the exact same way that the Dutch Reformed Church was involved in apartheid, just being involved in everything. Every [laughs] terrible thing America's ever done, we've been there cheering it on and supporting it in all kinds of ways. And I think a lot of what Trump in particular, and it's sometimes a little bit hard to put my finger on why it was him, but Trump in particular, I think highlighted to a lot of Christians who viewed themselves as kind of like just nice, gentle, center right Christians who were a part of a larger movement where maybe there were some people who were a little bit off the deep end, but overall, these institutions and these people are trying to accomplish good things in the world and follow Jesus faithfully, realized that that wasn't the case.I think there are a lot of people who realized that they actually had opinions about what it meant to follow Jesus that were dramatically different than the average person in their institutions, or the average evangelical Republican.Policy Debates for White Evangelicals Have Been a Cover for Power HungerSy Hoekstra: Peter Wehner, I think would be one of these people, who writes for the New York Times. He was a George W. Bush speech writer. He recently wrote an article saying, “Look, Donald Trump has explicitly said that if you took one of these super restrictive state abortion bans and you passed it in Congress and you put it on my desk, I would veto it. I would not pass a national abortion ban.”Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Which for the pro-life movement, that's the end goal. That would be [laughs], that would be the thing they've been fighting for for decades [Jonathan laughs]. And he has said, “I will not sign this.” And do you hear anything about that from Franklin Graham [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: So Al Mohler was on the Run-Up of the New York Times this week, when you listen to this probably like two weeks ago, talking about how, “Hey, Donald Trump just said he's not gonna sign a national abortion ban. What's your position on that?” And his position hasn't changed, because again, it is framed as you all are the radical people, not us. We are the victims, not you. There's a constant revision of reality that they are gonna continue to turn out and communicate that is rooted in fear and a lust for power and control and dominance. And that is toxic as all get-out, and obviously un-Christian.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, that was the end of my point, was that a thing that people have been arguing for a long time, which is that, this focus on abortion, this focus on prayer in school, or this focus on whatever the evangelical issue of the day is, has in fact been about power from the perspective of the leaders.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Maybe not the rank -in-file people like marching and the March for Life or whatever.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: But the leaders are after power, and they always have been. That's what, if you go back a couple years to our episode with Mako Nagasawa, the first episode of season two where we talked about abortion. That's what his whole book is about, is the history of abortion policy and how it's almost never been about abortion. It's almost always been about something else like anti-immigrant sentiment or professionalizing the medical profession or whatever. It's always been about some other issue of people trying to establish themselves and gain power over somebody else. That's what I think a lot of people are realizing, and so a lot of people who are, I think more to the right in the group of people who have signed this document that we have are on that journey, like are in the middle of it.Or not in the middle of it, but they've been going on it for a few years and they've been rejected by who they thought were their people for saying things like, “Hey, should we maybe adhere a little more closely to the teachings of Jesus?” [laughs] And now they're saying, okay, they've gotten to a point where they're like, “I need to draw a line in the sand. I need to make something clear here.” And that I think is different. That is genuinely different than eight years ago when everybody was, a lot of people in the middle were just kind of waffling.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah, right.Sy Hoekstra: Were not really sure what to do yet. And they still viewed the people on the far right who were all in for Trump as possibly a minority on their side, or possibly just something like a phase people were going through. Something that would flare up and then die, and it just didn't turn out that way. I think that's kind of how I view a lot of how we got to the place that we are now.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Again, zoomed in on America and not looking at the entirety of church history, which is where you wanted to go [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I mean, and I'll name some of the people that are key to that. So, Kristin Kobes Du Mez, like her book Jesus and John Wayne, Jemar Tisby's book, The Color of Compromise. And we could also throw in some Christianity adjacent, but loved by them books as well. So like all of the quote- unquote, anti-racist books, where people who are trying to leave the race-based, class-based, gender-based environmental hierarchy that White evangelicalism enforces, like I wrote about that in Twelve Lies as an explicit book. But you could say that Ibram X. Kendi's book is trying to get away from that. That White Fragility is trying to get away from that. That all of these books pushing back against [laughs], what now is called like Trad Wife and all these different things, it's trying to push back against these things. They're trying to call people to another reality because the one that some people have found themselves in is deeply unhelpful and not Christian.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I feel like that's been like you're refrain of this podcast. “And also, not Christian” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Not Christian. Right.Sy Hoekstra: And not Jesus.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Do we have any other thoughts on this subject, or do we want to jump into our segment?Jonathan Walton: I just think people should go sign it.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: And there's a fun bible study there that [laughs] we talked about two weeks ago on the podcast and spread the word about it. I think it's gonna be a good thing.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, the link to the website, the people who organized it, Jonathan said, “Hey, you can put the Bible study that we talked about in our last episode up, if you want a place for people to go to scripture on these subjects.” And they did.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: So that's cool. We will have the link to the confession in the show notes, as well as the link to the video that we created, which has a bunch of the signers of the confession reading parts of it, which we would love it if you would all share as widely as possible on your social media, and share the confession as well. We hope that this, as I said, changes somebody's hearts and minds, has some good effect on some people both in their discipleship and in their politics, which is what we're all about.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Amen. There's actually a worship album that came out too. So along with Phil Vischer's cartoons for kids that can be shown in churches, there's a Return to Love album by a bunch of folks that you all may know like Will Matthews, Crystal Lewis, Ryan Edgar. These are folks that have led worship in great places that the evangelical world has followed for a long time. And so having worship leaders willing to call us out as well is pretty great. Along with Phil Vischer, because these videos will definitely be great for kids.Sy Hoekstra: Is that worship album already out?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, it's out right now [laughs]. You could click on it.Sy Hoekstra: I don't know how they did that that fast. That's incredible [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Hey man, listen. There's a thing called the Holy Spirit.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And I think we all know that when Jesus moves, Jesus can do some things.Which Tab Is Still Open?: Trump at ArlingtonJonathan Walton: And so let's get into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open?, where we dive a little deeper into one of our recommendations from the newsletter. And remember, you can get our newsletter for free by signing up for the mailing list at KTFPress.com. You'll get recommendations on articles, podcasts, and other media from both of us on things that will help you in your political education and discipleship. Plus, you'll get reflections to keep you grounded and hopeful as we engage in this challenging work together. News about KTF and what's going on, and a lot more. So go get that free subscription and a paid one too. Alright. So this is your recommendation, so let's jump into it.Sy Hoekstra: This actually has a lot to do with what we were just talking about.Jonathan Walton: Yes, it does.Sy Hoekstra: This is all about Christian Nationalism [laughter]. And Trump kind of stepping in it when it comes to dealing with his Christian Nationalist followers. So here's the story, and the article that I recommended in the newsletter was actually, it both gave the details of the story, but it was actually for me, an example of kind of the thing that I was critiquing [laughs]. It was an Atlantic article, and basically the facts of what happened are as follows. Trump went to Arlington National Cemetery, which if you don't know, is I just learned the second, not actually the largest, the second largest national cemetery in the country.Jonathan Walton: Oh. Huh.Sy Hoekstra: The largest one's on Long Island, Jonathan, I had no idea.Jonathan Walton: What!Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yeah.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] I did not know that.Sy Hoekstra: So the people who are buried in Arlington are soldiers who served in active duty. Some of them died, some of them were retired and passed away later. And then like very high ranking government officials, like Supreme Court justices or presidents or whatever. So Trump went and visited a specific spot that had I think 13 soldiers who died during the evacuation of Afghanistan when there was a suicide bomb attack from the Taliban.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And he did this basically to highlight Biden administration screw ups. You didn't handle this evacuation well. And so because Harris is part of the administration, he's criticizing his opponent. And he went and took some pictures, which is fine, but he then was like specifically taking pictures in this area and like narrating a video talking about Biden screw ups and everything. And an employee of the cemetery pointed out correctly that campaign activities are illegal under federal law [laughs] at Arlington National Cemetery. And they kept going anyways. And they got in a little bit of an argument with her, and then later to the press said that she is mentally ill and was having a mental health crisis in that moment, and that she needed to be fired.And, fortunately the cemeteries said, “No, that's all a lie, and she was correctly telling you that you shouldn't have been doing what you were doing and et cetera.”Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: But there were a number of people, and I don't know if this is a majority or anything like that, but there were actually some Trump supporters who viewed this as a violation, like something that Trump really shouldn't have done. He was being disrespectful to the dead, the troops who were there, by doing partisan stuff at the National cemetery. It was not necessarily about the things that he was saying, but just by conducting yourself in a way that you're not supposed to conduct yourself at a national cemetery.Sy's Experience with Arlington and it's Strong Christian NationalismSo here's my in for this. I have a very long history of military [laughs] service in my family. Somebody in my family went on Ancestry.com one time, and I have a direct ancestor who was a drummer boy in the Continental Army with George Washington [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Oh, wow.Sy Hoekstra: And somebody who enlisted in the Union Army during the Civil War. And my great-grandfather was in World War II in Korea, grandfather was in Vietnam. And my grandfather who was in Vietnam, he died when I was about 10. My grandmother remarried a very highly decorated army colonel also from Vietnam, who he passed away and we had a funeral for him at Arlington. And Arlington does like 20, 30 funerals a day. So if you're a rank-in-file soldier, it's like a very, it's an in and out thing [laughs]. But because of either his rank or his awards or both [laughs], it was an event, Jonathan. It was like, we had the bigger, more beautiful chapel, and then we had a procession, because I can't see, I can't tell you how many it was, but at the very least, dozens of soldiers with a commanding officer taking his casket from the church to the burial site, there was a 21-gun salute. There was the presentation of the flag with the shell cases from the 21-gun salute to my grandmother. It was a big thing.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And if you've been to Arlington, you know that one of the key messages there is that the people who served America and the army served the kingdom of God, served Jesus. That is what they did. They served, and they may have died serving heaven [laughs] effectively. And so what that means is this is one of the holiest sites for Christian nationalism. This is one of the places where you go to be reassured with some of the highest level, like some of the world's greatest pomp and circumstance. The world's most convincing showing of pageantry and religious activity that the United States Army and the people who died serving it are also serving God, which is, you can't get more Christian nationalist than that.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Which is also why we have talked about Christian nationalism, actually far more common than people think it is [laughs]. It is absolutely normal in how we talk about the military. So what I think happened here with Trump is that because what I believe about Trump is that he's a conman to the core. He is pure... he's like self-interest incarnate [laughs]. He is out to promote Donald Trump and nothing more, and nobody more than that.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: I think he forgot that his self-interest can actually diverge from Christian nationalism [laughs]. I think that he forgot that he can step on his people's toes in a way that he doesn't want to. And he's basically going to look out for where those things diverge in future in order to not have this happen again. Because he's just there doing what he does, which is promoting himself anytime, anywhere at all costs. And he forgot that one of the things that he harnesses, which is Christian nationalism, is not actually something that he believes in, and so he can misfire [laughs]. The irony to me is that I want to gain enough power to do anything and not be held accountable for it to better myself in my own position, is a pretty good summary of how kind of the operating principle of the US military in our foreign policy has been for so long.So it's actually, it's like [laughs], it's two entities, a former president and the US military kind of clashing in their basically excuse making for their own unaccountability and their own sin. Which is how I view the Christian nationalism of a place like Arlington. What I just said Jonathan, is [laughs] blasphemy to a [laughs] lot of the people that I probably, to some people that I know personally. So I will just acknowledge that. But that is what I believe, and I think is true to the Bible. So hopefully you can at least give me that credit [Jonathan laughs]. Jonathan, boy, did I just talk for a long time. I'm sorry. I actually had in the outline that I wanted to ask you first what your thoughts were before I went on my rant, and I just couldn't help myself. So, [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Well, Sy, I mean…Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan, what are your thoughts?Jonathan Walton: I think one, I just appreciated the explanation of the closeness, why it's still open for you. Because I think when I was writing Twelve Lies, I wrote about the military, and I wanted to say, “Oh, they're only going to these types of communities to get people.” That would've been my hypothesis or was my hypothesis, but the research proved different.Sy Hoekstra: And when you say that, you specifically mean exploiting like poor Black and Brown neighborhoods?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You're saying like, “We'll get you into college, we'll give you benefits, et cetera, if you come fight and die for us.”Jonathan Walton: Exactly. And so…Sy Hoekstra: Potentially die for us.Jonathan Walton: Right, there's this exchange that's gonna happen for your body. Whether alive or dead, there will be benefits and resources for you or your loved ones. And so I went in with that lens, but what my research showed me was that the majority of people who serve in the military are family. Their parents were in it, their grandparents were in it, their cousin was in it. It's actually like only about two percent of the United States population is affiliated with the military. We're recruiting from the same groups of people. And this would also be true for law enforcement. People who were in it essentially raise their children and bless and send them into it as well as most often. It's not actually about income.The income, if I remember correctly, was between 50 to 70 thousand dollars a year in a household, which in a rural area is at the time, 10 years ago, felt like a living wage. And so that reality was also something that's interesting for me. So when Trump came out against Mark Milley, when Mark Milley challenged him to say, “Hey, you will not use me, quote- unquote, the military, as a prop in your racism, standing in front of St. John's church holding that Bible up,” which was literally the distorted cover of our book, our anthology, because these things were happening. When he insulted John McCain, that was a moment where the military and I think those who are beholden to Christian nationalism tried to speak up. Tried to say, “Hey, we won't do this.” But then the ball continued down the road.I don't know what the fallout of the Arlington stuff will be, but I do know based on Up First the NPR podcast this morning in the morning that we're recording September the seventh, they said the military and the employees actually let this go. But the reason they brought it back up was because Trump got on Truth Social , used platform and stature to say, “This did not happen. There was no altercation. This person had a mental health episode.” And when you go into that, that's where I think the, “We will not be disrespected” thing kind of came up. Like what do you mean? No, we're gonna talk about this and we're gonna name that. You will not desecrate this holy site. Holy in holy site of Christian nationalism, as you were saying.So I hope that there are more people that are offended, because I think that if we allow ourselves to be offended, to be bothered, to be uncomfortable, then maybe there will be some movement. Because I think you're absolutely right. He is, you said self-interest incarnate. I think that is a great quote [laughs].Trump Cheapened the Spiritual Cost People Pay to Be in the MilitaryJonathan Walton: What's painful to me, so I too have, my father was in Vietnam. My brother was in the Navy, my uncle was in the Army. My other uncles were in Vietnam. And Brodnax, the town where I'm from, has many gravestones from Vietnam and Korea. And so what is fascinating to me is the level of belief that you have to have to commit acts of atrocity or commit acts of violence. Like Shane Claiborne would say, we were not made to kill people, you have to be taught to do that.And I am in no way condemning a soldier or a person who's in military service, who's listening. That's not what I'm saying. I'm observing, it costs us something to do these things. And I think the thing that Trump did was cheapen the cost that many, many, many thousands of people have paid for something that they thought was a collective interest blessed by God when Trump said, “No, you are a pawn in my game. And I will use you for my benefit.” Now you again, you will have people that say that's what's happening anyway. Trump is just doing in like what everybody else does behind closed doors. But I think that tension that he articulates or brings up for us, I hope it's allowed to rise to the surface, and then we can have a conversation about the cost.Like the silent war in the military right now is that even soldiers who have not seen active duty are committing suicide. I hope it brings to the surface the, like my dad, Agent Orange ruined some of his life. They're still figuring out what the effects of that were. You have people who are saying they support troops in one hand, but then voting against resources and benefits for them in the other hand, when the legislation comes up. Lauren Boebert did that yesterday. I hope that the perceived belovedness of our veterans and military versus the reality of how they're exploited and taken advantage of and dismissed and cast aside, we would actually acknowledge that and then do real work to ensure that they don't end up on the street.They don't end up stuck on painkillers. They do get the medical resources they need. They do get the mental health support that they need. Their families do get the resources that they need on and off-base and not just a discount at the PX. If that could be the conversation because of this, then I'd be very glad.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Just one more thing you said there. You said lots of people use the military as pawns and it's true. Or like props for their campaigns. It is just another one of those things about Trump where he will just do what everybody else did, but he'll turn it up to 11 [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah, no, yeah. It's true.Sy Hoekstra: Everybody else, every politician, if they have a military background, if their family does, if they can visit a military site or whatever, they do it all the time. And even if their love for the military or for America is real, it is also true that they use them for their campaigns [laughs]. Use them to prop up. That has been… since we elected George Washington, the general of the Continental Army, has been true [laughter]. Right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So Trump is just the one who says, “Whatever your rules of decorum are, I'm going to break them.” And in most cases, that is actually his appeal. “Yes. I break rules of decorum and there's no consequences. And that's because these elitist can't tell me what to do and we need to take back power.Jonathan Walton: Oh Lord have mercy, Jesus [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: You need someone like me who can just break through all this nonsense.” You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Right. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That's usually his appeal. And in this case, it just happened to be that he crossed the wrong line for some people. I'm sure there's a lot of people who probably don't care [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. It may not wrangle a lot of people, but I hope it wrangles the right people.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And him stretching out this poop that he stepped on and not wiping it off his foot and continue his campaign, I hope that roils people. He is a disrespectful person.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And for Christians, literally James chapter four, it's that God opposes the proud. We are called to be humble people, and so I pray for Trump. I pray for his family. Not that he would win an election and all those things, but literally that they would come to know Jesus. Literally that they would know the freedom in him. Literally, that they would be able to experience the freedom that money cannot purchase and privilege cannot provide for you. And so I say all these things in hopes that everyone who is watching what happens is disquieted because we should not be comfortable with what's happening. Especially as followers of Jesus [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Amen to that Jonathan. Amen.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I think we'll wrap it up there. Just as a reminder, as we finish, please again, go to KTFPress.com, get that newsletter and sign up as a paid subscriber to support everything that we do. We're centering and elevating marginalized voices. We're helping people seek Jesus in their discipleship and in their politics. We really do need some more support than we have right now if we're gonna make this sustainable kind of past this election season. So please do come and sign up as a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com. Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robyn Burgess, transcripts by Joyce Ambale, editing by Multitude Productions. I am the producer along with our lovely paid subscribers. Thank you so much for joining us, and we will see you in two weeks.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Give me one second. One moment. I'm gonna get the name right so that you don't have to go edit this later [Sy laughs]. … So yes, we… Robert Mohler. The—Richard Mohler. Al Mohler. That's his name [Sy laughs]. Al Mohler [laughs]. It says R dot Albert Mohler. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Send us a Text Message.Can personal attacks win elections, or are they a recipe for disaster? Join us for a compelling conversation where we dissect the Republican Party's strategy to challenge Vice President Kamala Harris and explore why focusing on substantive issues might be the winning formula. We then shift gears to discuss the state of the U.S. economy, celebrating the lowest inflation rates in three years and examining President Biden's policies that could lead to a Federal Reserve interest rate cut. This economic uplift brings new optimism for Democrats as we approach the next election cycle.In our next chapter, we bust some myths and confront hard truths about crime rates and immigration. Contrary to popular belief, recent data indicates a significant drop in violent crime during the Biden administration, and we debunk the narrative linking migrants to increased crime. Additionally, we highlight the intriguing emergence of groups like "White Evangelicals for Kamala Harris," analyzing their potential to reshape the traditionally Republican evangelical vote. Positive economic news further bolsters the conversation, painting a complex but hopeful picture.Finally, we tackle the contentious issue of abortion rights, focusing on state-level ballot measures and their broader implications. From Missouri to Arizona, we examine upcoming legislative battles and the shifting sentiments among American voters. Hear about the challenges facing the pro-life movement and the surprising public support for pro-abortion measures. This episode is packed with critical analysis and thought-provoking commentary on the future of abortion legislation in the U.S. and the societal values shaping these pivotal decisions. Support the Show.

On today's episode, Jonathan and Sy are talking all about conspiracy theories with Matt Lumpkin, a former minister and software developer. They discuss:-        Asking what it is that conspiracy theories accomplish for the people who believe them-        Why White Evangelicals are so susceptible to conspiracy theories right now-        The importance of churches helping people develop critical thinking, rather than outsourcing belief systems to authority figures-        How we can help people let go of conspiracy theories-        And after the interview, a fascinating conversation about despair in the face of violence like that in Palestine, prioritizing the vulnerable, and Albert CamusMentioned in the Episode-            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith-            Matt's website, Mattlumpkin.com-            Matt's Instagram-            The podcast episode on Palestine and CamusCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Matt Lumpkin: You notice almost all of these conspiracy theories provide a way to stay in the old way of thinking and being. They want to make America great again. They want to go back to a time when things made sense, when White people were powerful, and no one questioned their gender. They want to go back, right? [laughs] And if you look at the prophets, the biblical prophets, yes, they're interested in what happened before, but they're more interested in saying, how do we move forward from this? As I try to sift through and make sense of who are the voices that are worth listening to, one of the litmus tests I use is, does it ask anything from me? If the story only makes me feel good, if it only affirms my existing Identity, then that's a red flag for me.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Get ready for an incredible interview from our series where we're bringing on authors from the anthology we published in 2020, Keeping the Faith: Reflection on Politics & Christianity in the Era of Trump & Beyond. Today, we're talking all about the world of right-wing conspiracy theories with Matt Lumpkin [laughs]. But don't worry, it's nowhere near as depressing as it sounds [Sy laughs]. Matt is really interested in figuring out how people make meaning out of their lives and circumstances, so we focus on what the benefits of believing in conspiracy theories are for the people who subscribe to them, why Conservative White Christians are so susceptible to conspiracy theories in this historical moment, and what we are learning from comparing conspiracy theories with biblical prophets and a whole lot more.Sy Hoekstra: It's a really good conversation. Matt actually does a pretty good job of taking us through his bio in the conversation, so I won't do that now, except to say he's a Fuller Seminary grad who worked as a hospital chaplain for a while and then actually made his way into the world of software development. So that is what he does now. His essay in our anthology was called “What Job Is a Conspiracy Theory Doing?” And you can find the anthology at www.keepingthefaithbook.com. After the interview with Matt, hear our thoughts on the interview, plus our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our free weekly newsletter. Today, we're talking about a really interesting podcast episode comparing the French Algerian War to the violence in Palestine right now, all through the lens of the Algerian philosopher Albert Camus. You don't want to miss that one, it'll be a fascinating conversation.Before we dive in, like we've been saying, we need your support, and we need it now. If you like what you hear and read from KTF Press and you want it to continue beyond this election season, please become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com that's our Substack, and share our work with anyone you think might be interested. If you're already a paying subscriber, consider upgrading to our founding member tier.And if the price to subscribe is too high and you want a discount, just write to us at info@ktfpress.com. We'll give you whatever discount you want, no questions asked. Every little bit helps. Subscribers get all the bonus episodes of this show, monthly Zoom discussions with the two of us and a lot more. So please go sign up at KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber and join us in seeking Jesus and confronting injustice. Thank you so much.Jonathan Walton: All right, let's get into our interview with Matt Lumpkin.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Matt Lumpkin, thank you so much for being with us on Shake the Dust today.Matt Lumpkin: I'm so glad to be here. It's great to meet both of you. I've been a fan of y'all's work since I learned about you and started following the publishing, but also some of Jonathan's work on Instagram. I learn things from almost every post, so really appreciate that.Jonathan Walton: I appreciate that. Thanks so much.Sy Hoekstra: It's very nice to talk to you not in emails and document comments on your essays or whatever [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. Well, it was a lovely process working with you all on the book chapter, and I love asynchronous first working patterns, so that makes me very happy. But it's great to actually be chatting and get to learn a little bit more about you guys and talk a little bit more about some of the stuff that you want to get into.How Matt Started Thinking about the Ways People Make Meaning in Their LivesMatt Lumpkin: Just a bit about me up front. So raised very Evangelical, very fundamentalist, frankly Baptist, with a [laughs] very Pentecostal grandmother. So right out the gate, you have two frameworks [laughs] who don't agree on what's true, but are both family [laughter]. So that's my religious upbringing. And then I spent early years in my career working as a hospital chaplain. I also spent some time living outside the country, taught English in Indonesia and traveled around Southeast Asia and all of those things. When I actually did end up in grad school at Fuller Theological Seminary, I had a lot of questions [laughs]. I had a lot of big questions around, how does a religion work? How do people make meaning? How do people put their meaning-making frameworks together and this language of what job is this doing? These are questions I've been asking for a long time in the course of my time at Fuller. I was there for about a decade studying part time and then working, doing a lot of online course design, and a lot of building and experimenting with online spaces, building mobile apps to test out different psychological principles, and all the way into building products.There's a product now called Fuller Equip that's still alive and kicking that I designed and built with several colleagues. So in my early career, I brought all those questions to Fuller, which is a very Evangelical space, but also a pretty… Fuller is like a bridge.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: It's a bridge from where you start to, usually somewhere different. And then a lot of people walk across that bridge, and they look back and they're like, “Man, why is this place so like still connected to that place I came from?” And it's like, because it's a bridge [laughter] and it needs to still be there so that other people can walk across. But so much goodness came from my time there, and just in terms of really expanding my understanding. I had a very narrow idea of what calling meant, a very narrow idea of what I meant to be faithful to God. And that in my mind [laughs], by the time I was 14 years old, that meant I need to be a pastor, preacher in a small church like the kind I grew up in.And it was at Fuller where I really… and my work in, all different kinds of work in early life, especially as a chaplain, was about finding a space to be faithful to that calling and that identity, while also being the person that I am who's endlessly curious about people, endlessly curious about how do things work, and what's really going on versus what people say is going on, and just how do people think about things in their own way. So in the course of doing that work, I found my way into designing software. All kinds of software, from websites and mobile apps to now in the last five or six years, I've been working on diabetes software and supporting people who live with type 1 as well as type 2 diabetes.And all those same skills I bring to bear of getting into the mindset of other people, really deeply trying to enter their world and understand what does it look like. What are the problems, what are the pain points, and then what might actually move the needle to change it? But this background in studying religion formally, studying psychology, studying cultural anthropology, these lenses are all things that I use in my work as a designer, but also [laughs] in my attempts to make meaning of this rapidly evolving landscape we live in.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Asking What Job a Conspiracy Theory Does for its BelieversSy Hoekstra: Yeah. Speaking of how things operate in people's minds versus how they say things are operating [laughter], let's jump right into your essay, which is all about conspiracy theories. And your kind of framework for understanding conspiracy theories is right there in the title, it's what job is a conspiracy theory doing? So I just want to start with, when you hear Trump talking about having the election stolen, or you hear someone talking about QAnon or whatever, why is the question, “What job is this theory doing?” the basis for how you understand what's going on with that person?Moving to Empathy and Curiosity Instead of AngerMatt Lumpkin: Yeah. So there's a few reasons. One is to move me to a space of empathy, because I don't know about you all, but I get real mad [laughs] at times about some of the just really hurtful and harmful ideas that get spread around that have no basis in fact very often, and actively harm people. It's one thing to make up a story that makes you feel good if that doesn't hurt anybody else, but a lot of these stories really create a lot of harm. So this is a step for, it's a pragmatic step for me to step out of anger, frustration, let me just push you away to get curious of what is going on here? Because so many of the stories, I think I talk about the lizard people [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Matt Lumpkin: That one takes me back to V. Did you guys watch V in the 80s? There was this lizard people, body snatchers, terrible, I don't recommend it. These people unzipping like masks and there are lizards underneath.Jonathan Walton: Yes! I do remember that. Yes [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: It terrified me as a kid. I walked in the living room one time and saw it. That's always where my mind goes when I hear those stories and I think, “Wow, how could you believe this?” So the question of, “What job is this doing?” is a way to get me out of my judgmental reactive and into getting curious about this person and what is it doing. It also connects to my work as a designer. There's a framework that we use in design called “jobs to be done” and thinking about digital products. And basically, you ask yourself, “If this piece of software were going to get hired to do this job, what would it need to do? What are the jobs to be done? And what would it get fired over?” Like if you don't do this thing, are you going to lose the job?So kind of a way of moving out of the emotional space and into the curiosity space. But also when I say the way that they say something is different from the way that they think it, we all do this. We all have cognitive biases we're unaware of, and it's not like anybody's a particular failure for having a bias that they don't see. So when I talk to people about the software that I've designed, I'm not just going to ask them, “Do you like it?” People will always tell you, “Yeah, yeah, I like it.” I have lots of strategies that I use to get behind that and understand on a more deeper level like, is this doing the job for you?What Do Conspiracy Theories Accomplish for People Who Believe Them?Matt Lumpkin: So when I came to these conspiracy theories and was just hearing these things I just couldn't fathom why or how someone come to that conclusion, what was the context? It was the pandemic. We were in the midst of the pandemic and a lot of this was happening. All the rules and the maps that people had to make sense of their world were not working anymore. And as a person who's lived outside the US and experienced culture shock directly, when your maps don't work, it is profoundly disorienting.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: You feel like a child again.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: You feel really vulnerable because you don't know how to act in a way that makes sense. I believe that that sense of disorientation, cultural disorientation, social disorientation, religious disorientation, that is the driver. That's what makes people reach out and grab onto these ideas. And frankly, I think it's what makes con men and people who are aware of this dynamic pop up. These periods of time are ripe for cons because people are looking for a way to get their feet under them again, so to speak, in a world that feels confusing and uncertain. So that's a number of different things. It's empathy, it's about moving to curiosity and away from anger, and it's also just pragmatically, what's going on here?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: What's the real value? What's the real driver here? Because it's doing something for you, whether you're conscious of it or not. People don't change their minds easily until the pain of changing your mind is more than the pain of holding on to the original ideas. So I think a lot of these conspiracy theories or strategies are ways of hanging on to old ideas that are unraveling, and they're ways of saying, we can discount this proof for this evidence here because the conspiracy supplies this idea of, “Well, the conspiracy is designed to hide things from here. It's designed not have evidence so it's okay if we don't have evidence.” Has all these logic loopholes that get people out of the normal social contract that we have when we talk in public [laughter] saying things that are true.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: Or saying things that can be checked or are credible. And I think the broader challenge that we're in is… You know, I got into working in technology after studying church history and understanding that the printing press is really a catalyst of the complete social and political upheaval of Europe.Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: It's that moment that breaks the way people put meaning together, because it suddenly increases literacy and increases the speed in transmission of ideas. And I woke up and realized we are in the middle of a Gutenberg moment here. We are 25, 30 years into the internet, and we're just beginning to see the epistemic crisis, the crisis of how we know what we know really come to fruition.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: So I think that's the broader context of wanting to get curious about this, because that's the broad context. The narrow context is pandemic, the narrow context is like… there's lots of other things that push people to this feeling of disorientation.Jonathan Walton: Right.Just Providing Correct Facts Won't Change MindsMatt Lumpkin: And so I'm looking for, how is the thing that you believe that is obviously wrong or factually disprovable to me, what does it do for you? Because just pounding on people with facts has been scientifically shown to not change people's minds.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.Matt Lumpkin: It will not work.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. What you just said makes sense, yet we love to do it.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Right? [laughs] We love to just pelt people with answers.Matt Lumpkin: Some of us do, some of us have minds that are more… and I'm guilty. I have this deep internal need that's probably related to ways in which my brain may not be 100 percent standard equipment[Sy laughs]. This internal need to make things consistent. Like if I encounter a new piece of information that doesn't match my map of the world, I've got to figure out how the information is wrong, or I've got to change my map. And I can't really rest until I've done it. But that's not most people. And there are parts of my life and thinking where I don't do that as rigorously, but there's a lot public space safety questions, questions of [laughs] science and medicine, those are ones in which I do need my model to be accurate, because those models have literally saved the lives of people that I love. Like the practice of science, the scientific methods saved my daughter's life when she was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes.We knew before the doctors did, because we gathered data, we gathered evidence, and then we were able to show that evidence. So it satisfied our way of knowing, like we measured it. It's not just family worries. It's not just parents being nervous. It's grounded in real observation that we can then hand you. But there's a lot of domains where people aren't used to doing that kind of rigor.Why Are White Evangelicals So Susceptible to Conspiracy Theories Right Now?Mat Lumpkin: As we think about the Evangelical context, one of the things I explore in the essay is why are Evangelicals particularly, do they seem to be particularly vulnerable to these kinds of erroneous claims or conspiratorial claims? I feel that that's true, and I started to pay more attention to it when I noticed other non-Christian journalists were noticing.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: Like, “Hmm, the Evangelicals are really buying this QAnon to our surprise. Outside it doesn't seem it would match,” same with a lot of Trumpism.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: A lot of Trump's ideology and way of being in the world seems very antithetical to what popular conceptualization of Jesus followers would be, and yet, it's working. So why? What job is it doing?Jonathan Walton: I'd love for you to dive deeply into that. Why do you think White Evangelicals are particularly susceptible right now?Matt Lumpkin: Thank you for that correction as well. Because I do think that it is a specific challenge to White Evangelicals, and I don't see it spreading and being shared in the same way among Evangelicals that I know that are not White.Discouraging Critical Thinking about What Authority Figures SayMatt Lumpkin: So a couple of things. One, just a general lack of rigor in how you know what you know. And why would Evangelicals have a lack of rigor and how they know it? Why would they? It's a tradition that literally emerged from people, the deep Protestant move to want to read the Bible for yourself and, but what does that do? That centers the self and the individual in the private prayer time, in the quiet time, as the source of authority.If you want to go deeper into that space, and I say this as somebody who has many Pentecostal folks in my family who was raised in no small part by my Pentecostal grandmother, and my mom, her faith is deeply shaped by Pentecostalism. But that tradition really centers the individual experience of the deity and of their experience of God as a source of truth and authority. Well, you hang around with more than one Pentecostal and you're going to find you get differing accounts of what God might be saying in any given time.Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: So that kind of flexibility and fuzziness, and in folks that move in these spaces, they're really clever at saying, “Well, that didn't mean this, it meant this now, now that I know this other thing”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: So it's very changeable in a way that's very coherent with the way that you see a lot of QAnon folks or a lot of other conspiracy theorists say, “Well, we got this piece of evidence, and so now what we said last week doesn't work anymore, but don't worry, I've got a new way to read Revelation that actually accounts for it” [Jonathan laughs]. And so that practice and that move being modeled by leaders and authority figures in these churches creates this receptivity to a kind of very, I want to use the word lazy, but that's maybe a bit harsh, but it's a lack of rigor in questioning, “What did you tell me last week [laughs], and what did you tell me this week, and why is it not the same?”Authoritarian Methods of Learning TruthMatt Lumpkin: And all of that stems from what I would say in many churches is an authoritarian epistemology.Sy Hoekstra: I was going to say it's kind of a lack of accountability, which goes along with authoritarianism.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. I think I touched on this briefly in the essay that, when your foundation of what you know is because an authority told you, who that authority is claiming that it comes straight from God or it comes straight from the source who's deeply embedded in the deep state, those are both parallel claims. Like, “I've got a direct line, so you can trust me.” But that is a very brittle way of building a model of reality, because you're not doing it yourself. You've outsourced it to the authority, in spite of any claims you might be making to doing your own research. It's a way of saying, “Well, I can't read the text in its original Greek or Hebrew, so I'm just going to outsource that to somebody who can.” “Well, I can't understand necessarily these theological concepts, so I'm just going to trust my pastor to do that.”Well, once you get in the habit of outsourcing all these things that are at the root of your most deeply held beliefs about reality and truth, then that's a move that you're accustomed to making. And it's a dangerous move, because without a practice of critical thinking and of questioning for yourself, critical thinking is the immune system for your mind. If you don't have it, you won't notice that it's getting colonized or infected with bad ideas.Jonathan Walton: A thousand percent [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: And you won't be able to spot those infections as they make you sick and as they make your communities sick. I think what we're seeing right now is a time in which a lot of these ideas and these ways of… it's not just ideas, it's ways of thinking and ways of knowing that are very, very changeable and very flexible and fluid. They lack a certain rigor. That's happening because, why? Because people are reaching out for a way to hang on to the old map. You notice almost all of these conspiracy theories provide a way to stay in the old way of thinking and being. They want to make America great again. They want to go back to a time when things made sense, when White people were powerful and no one questioned their gender.They want to go back [laughs]. And if you look at the prophets, which is in the chapter that we're discussing here, the biblical prophets, yes, they're interested in what happened before, but they're more interested in saying, “How do we move forward from this?” As I try to sift through and make sense of who are the voices that are worth listening to, the people that are interested in trying to understand how we got where we are today, so that we can understand how we can get out of this mess, what actions we can take. Those are the voices that I think are more… One of the litmus tests I use is, does it ask anything from me? If the story only makes me feel good, if it only affirms my existing identity, then that's a red flag for me, because it's only flattering me.Now, on the flip side, if you read the book of Revelation, that book is written to a community that it's trying to encourage that community that's being marginalized, it's suffering. And it does ask some things of that community, but it's also trying to celebrate. So there aren't really easy and clean [laughs] answers on which voices you can trust, you have to do the work of doing your own critical thinking. But I think Evangelicals in general have been discouraged in many churches from doing any critical thinking at all, because it undermines the authority of the lead pastor or the leadership team or whomever…Sy Hoekstra: The denomination or whoever.Jonathan Walton: …that they've outsourced all of this work to.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. And that might seem… I've been to seminary, I have a Master's of Divinity degree. I get frustrated when people don't listen to my authority [laughter]. You work in any number of church settings and you realize you don't want them to. What you really want is you want to teach people how to build their own faith and their own meaning using these tools, and do it in community, so that we can check each other's work.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: In my early work as a hospital chaplain, I spent a year doing spirituality support groups with the folks that were in the lockdown unit in the psych ward.Sy Hoekstra: Oh wow.Matt Lumpkin: So we're talking about doing spirituality groups with people that have schizophrenia, that have bipolar disorder, that sometimes in their mind hear the voice of God telling them to do things. Now, how do you help a person like that connect with their faith, now that their very way of knowing or having that connection is now called into question? It's a hard problem, but that's really where I started to wake up to this reality of the problematic nature of, “God talks to me, and then I go do a thing.” There are lots of stories in the Bible where that happens, and some of them are terrifying, but it is always an interpretive choice that we make to say that, “I had an experience, and I believe it was God speaking to me,” best done in community with people that you trust.I kind of wish Abraham had talked to some of his community of faith before taking Isaac up on the hill. That's a terrifying story of somebody not raising questions about what they thought they heard from God.Conspiracy Theorists vs. Biblical Prophets; Blaming “Them” vs. Inviting IntrospectionSy Hoekstra: The community point is very well taken, and also you've said it, but I want to just highlight it for the audience, because I think that the point about profits versus conspiracy theorists being the people who require something of you versus the people who require nothing of you is so important. And you are right, it is so within the culture of Evangelicalism, definitely within the culture that I grew up in, to say that everything that is wrong with the world is because of those people out there, and has nothing to do with us, and we do not need to reflect, we do not need to change, they need to become like us. And that is that colonial type of faith that you were just talking about. Everyone else needs to become like me, and then the world would be fine.Matt Lumpkin: That's a litmus test.Sy Hoekstra: It's a litmus test, but I also want to highlight the prophets being the people who against what everybody else, not what everybody else, but what in many cases everybody else in their society wanted them to do, we're suggesting the problem here might actually be us [laughter], and we need to take some time and think about how it might be us, and have some real reflection as a community. And that is actually what God wants us to do. So having a faith that is oriented around that versus a faith that is oriented around blaming the world for everything, those are faiths that go in polar opposite directions. And I want that to be everyone's red flag [laughs] is what I'm saying, and I really appreciated when you made that point your essay.Matt Lumpkin: As a designer, we use “how might we” questions when we don't know the answer [laughs]. How might we encourage faith communities to develop a healthy critical thinking and awareness of religious abuse and manipulation? I mean, religion is powerful. It's how many, many of us, most humans, make sense of their reality and situate themselves in the cosmic story and understand who they are and what their life is about. And yet it is so often used to manipulate people, to sway people, to create specific emotional experiences for people, so that whoever's doing the manipulation can get something that they want. And how might we create communities of faith that are resilient against manipulation, resilient against co-option by, I like y'all's term “colonial power” or “colonized faith?”I think it's a great lens to think about the ways in which the Evangelical tradition, which when I teach my kids about where Evangelicals came from, because I've studied this church history, abolition, that was Evangelicals. So many of the really positive expressions, I think, of Christian faith have also been a part of this tradition. So how did we get co-opted by fear and a desire to go back in time to some imagined past? How did so many churches and church people get co-opted in that way? I talk a little bit about the first time I encountered it. I'm 42, dispensationalism was around, but it wasn't a part of my church community.Sy Hoekstra: Which is just, briefly, for people who don't know.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. Dispensationalism is the idea that… oh boy. So it's pretty young as a theological movement, I think, around 100 years. And in fact, it's a really great propaganda strategy if you want to have your religious idea emerge from the grassroots, you just print up a Bible, a study Bible. Scofield Study Bible has a lot of these connections drawn for pastors. They gave them away, they printed them up and shipped them out to pastors all across the country. Twenty years later, lots of people came up with dispensationalism, simultaneously invented. It's a really great propaganda strategy, worthy of Dune [laughter]. It laid those foundations early. But it only took 20 years in America for this idea, and this idea being that Jesus is going to come back and take away the faithful, but then real bad stuff's going to happen on earth, trials and tribulations are going to happen.And then in some versions there's a showdown with Jesus and Satan, in other versions there's not. Then it gets pretty divergent, and you can find really cool maps of this in old bookstores where people try to map it out because it's impossible to explain.Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: And then the churches that I was around in my early theological study were obsessed with arguing over whose version of dispensationalism was right. And then you dig into it and you're like, this is a novel idea [laughs], it doesn't even go back very far in church history. So it's a great example of a way a theological concept takes hold and then gives people a lot of busy work to do, to go home and read Scripture and try to mix and match and come up with a way that makes sense of it. So The Late Great Planet Earth was the antecedent to the Left Behind books, which were big time when I was in college. And all of that is based on this idea of dispensationalism, that there's going to be an antichrist arise and then all these switcheroos and people get taken away [laughs].Like the rapture, it literally comes from the same word that we get raptor, the birds of prey, because some people are snatched away, not a good image. I don't want to be taken like that actually. That doesn't seem a positive [laughter]. So all this to say, those ideas, when did they emerge? They emerged during the Cold War. They emerged when kids were having to duck and cover under the [laughs] idea that's going to save you from an atomic blast. Like real terrifying existential stuff going on that causes people to look around and say, “This is causing me anxiety. I am terrified all the time. How can I not be terrified?” And a lot of these moves, they go back, or they look for a scapegoat to blame.And that's really, I think, one of the most harmful and most important litmus tests to hang on to. I don't like the word litmus test. I would call these heuristics. They're strategies you can use to understand something, questions you can ask yourself, like who's paying for this? Who benefits from this? What does this demand of me? Who's at fault? Who's to blame here? If the persons to blame are somebody you already feel disgust or separation from, that should be a red flag. Because we know that the human mind feels emotions before it knows why it feels them, and then this narrative kicks in to try to make sense of why do I feel these emotions? And I think a lot of how the conspiracy theories work, particularly the really deeply dark ones around pedophilia, around…Sy Hoekstra: Cannibalism.Matt Lumpkin: …cannibalism.Jonathan Walton: Cabal.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah, and a lot of those, they draw on really, really deeply held old, long, deep human history social taboos. We don't eat other people. Children are off limits as sexual partners. These are deeply held boundaries on civilization, on humanity, on even having any kind of community at all. So once you say, my opponent, the enemies, once you make them into something so horrible…Jonathan Walton: Lizard drinking blood people [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: …then it justifies the disgust you already felt towards somebody that you didn't like. So that's another way of thinking about this, of not falling for this trap of somebody coming along and saying, “You know what, your life is messed up. You are disempowered. You don't have the same cultural power and influence you had before. You can't enjoy just talking to your grandkids without worrying about offending them, and it's because of those people and their secret agenda that you can't actually know about, but I'm going to tell you about because I know,” and then what job does that do? It makes you feel justified in the things you already felt and thought. It makes you feel angry, and it makes you feel you were right all along.Feeling like you were right all along almost never [laughs] results in good actions. [laughter] When it turns out, everything I already thought was right, that's not a great place from which to get closer to truth.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and there's a lot of gold in what you're saying, but something standing out for me is I can feel strongly about something without thinking deeply about it.Matt Lumpkin: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: So Hillary Clinton can be a lizard person who drinks the blood of children to stay alive. That's much easier than saying she's actually just somebody who benefits from systems of powers and structures that have put her in place her the majority of her life, and she's responsible for the deaths of a lot of people. But not drinking the blood of children, but like drone attacks. You know what I mean? But one requires thoughtfulness and doesn't engender those same feelings, because we don't have compassion for folks in the Middle East. I have compassion for folks in South America, but I can feel strongly about this 500 year old cabal that she's a part of and that Obama and Oprah and all them are.Matt Lumpkin: You've been reading more of that than I have. I don't know all that [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Hey man, hey man, you know, some of us got to do it so other people don't [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: Yeah.How Can We Help People Let Go of Conspiracy Theories?Jonathan Walton: But as we're engaging with these things, and I'm sure you're going to get to it, but what are some ways that you've actually seen people let go of this stuff, and how can we move towards those people in love instead of judgment, the way that you've been sharing about being empathetic?Maintaining Relationships with Conspiracy Theorists Is KeyMatt Lumpkin: I have to tell you guys, I don't think I'm particularly good at this. I have learned from some other people that I think are better at it than me. One is the thing we've talked about, about getting curious. This is just a good, this is Matt's unsolicited advice for all humans, whenever you're getting mad, pause and get curious. That's a good move to make. Getting out of the deep emotion space and into the curiosity space of what's going on here? What's really happening? Why am I feeling this?Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: Why are you feeling this? What's really motivating this? But the second one is, it may feel good to want to dunk on people with facts, because it's so easy [laughs] with so many of these things, but it doesn't actually result, dunking on people rarely results in closer relationships. There are times where I think it's important to push back against direct untruths that if spread can actively harm people. But the way you want to think about it is how can I say this and keep our relationship? Because what has been shown to work to get people to move out of some of these terrible ideas is relationships with people who don't share them. Because once all of your relationships are comprised of people who share this shared reality, that's an intersubjective reality that is mutually reinforcing.All those people are thinking the same things and talking the same things and thinking under the same reality, and it will make that reality more real. So just being in someone's life and existing and being the sort of person that isn't dismissible. For your listeners that are good Bible readers, go read the Gospels again. Watch how Jesus stays uncondemnable by the rules of phariseeism, so that he can transgress the rules of phariseeism in a way that upends them, in a way that challenges them. If he was just like, “Well, this is all terrible. None of this is true,” and just lived a way that, they would say, “Well, we can't take this man seriously. This person's not a person of faith. He's not even following the law.”But no, he carefully stays comprehensible to them as a participant in their community, so that when he does transgress on purpose with intention, a thing that needs to be challenged, he can't be dismissed. So staying in the lives of these people, and this is hard work, because some of the rules and the ways in which they put their world together are nonsensical. They don't match, they don't fit together.Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: So you can't do it perfectly, but staying a person that has not rejected them, and staying in relationship with them while holding on to your reality and talking about it. It's not enough that the reality just lives in your mind. You have to bring it out into the world and make it real for them, so that you become a problem [laughs] for them that they have to resolve.Sy Hoekstra: Well, I had two quick things to say about that. One is the point about throwing facts at people. If you have asked the question of what job is this conspiracy theory doing, and you have answered that question, then you will realize that throwing facts at people is not going to address that problem.Matt Lumpkin: You've just taken away the thing that was fixing something for them, and now they're not going to let go of it easily because you've not offered anything better.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, and the problem is still there. Their problem wasn't insufficient facts.Matt Lumpkin: [laughs] Right.Sy Hoekstra: So that's one thing. And the other thing is talking about having close relationship with people and being credible and all that, I think that just emphasizes a point that we made before in this show, which is that if you are in a dominant group on a hierarchy, it's easier for you to do that. It is easier for White people to talk to other White people about racism and to remain credible and to maintain your close relationships, and to be able to talk about things that maybe your racist cousin would never talk about with Jonathan. You know what I mean? And that goes for anything. Able-bodied people talking about disabled people or whatever, checking people who use ableist language. So I just wanted to draw those two points for our listeners out of what you were saying.Matt Lumpkin: I think that's really important. And I think that any advice that I'm offering here is offered from the perspective of somebody who enjoys a lot of power and privilege. As a White, cis het man in America, in my middle age, I am at the height of my power and privilege. So the question that I ask myself is, I learned early on in life, I can't give the power that these corrupt cultural institutions have given me away. I can try, but they just give it back [Sy laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Matt Lumpkin: So how might I use that power to amplify the voices of people that don't have it, that don't enjoy it? Those are questions that I come back to and need to come back to more and more. And frankly, the less risk I take, I take less risk for me to challenge those ideas. But I think again, the challenging… and I get it. I get mad and I want to shatter these false realities. When I get in a space of anger, I want to burn it down. I want to reveal the falsity of it. But burning down a shelter someone has made for their psyche is rarely a gateway to a continued relationship [laughter]. So instead, the metaphor that I like to use, and I use this even when I was working in churches and doing adult Bible study, it's a metaphor of renovation.We all have rotten boards in our faith house and in our own psychological house, the shelter that we use to face the challenges of reality. We all have things that could be improved, and it's easier to take somebody walks through and says, “Oh, I think you've got little bit of dry rot over here. I got some time this week, you want me to help you work on that? I think we could fix it.” There's a really, really great passage over in Jeremiah that could really help us shore this up. That's a better way than saying, “You know what, I came over and you're living in a house full of rotten garbage, and I just burned it down for you.” That's less helpful.Jonathan Walton: Right.Asking What Evidence Would Prove the Conspiracy Theory Is False?Matt Lumpkin: Finally, I think the thing that, and I looked for the source on this, I couldn't find it. And if I find it, I'll let you know.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: But I heard a guy being interviewed, and he had done a lot of work scientifically in this area. If you can't tell I care a lot about science. I care a lot about how you know what you know. Scientific method is important to me. But he had said that basically, there aren't a lot of good strategies for getting people to let go of these ideas, but one that has been shown to be successful is to ask more questions. And to ask questions about, “Okay, well, why do you think that? How did you come to this conclusion?” To get curious with the person of how they came to these conclusions. And then when you hear things that are factually untrue, ask like, “Okay, well, what evidence would you accept?”So the move is this, you get curious, you ask questions, you get more data on why they think what they think. You offer some counter evidence that challenges some of the false foundations. When they don't accept it and they won't, then the move is, if you don't accept that evidence, what evidence would you accept that would actually change your mind? And that question can become the seed of doubt in the conspiracy theory thinking. Why? Because conspiracy theories are self-authenticating. There is no evidence that can show them to be false. And so telling somebody that isn't the same as them coming to that conclusion on their own and then feeling a little bit conned.At least for what I understood from this gentleman, the most successful paths are not making the leap for them, but leading them up to the leap to understand that they're locked in.Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: And a lot of folks that really these theories appeal to, they appeal to them because they feel empowering. “I'm choosing this, I'm believing against the mainstream.” So once they start to realize that they're locked in a system that they can't actually ever get out of, because no evidence would convert them out of it, that's a bad feeling.Where to Find Matt's WorkSy Hoekstra: Interesting. Matt, before we let you go, can you tell people where they can find you on the internet, or what work of yours you would want them to check out?Matt Lumpkin: I do a lot of stuff at www.mattlumpkin.com, that's where most of some of the stuff that I write goes. If you want to see pictures of the paintings that I'm working on or the furniture that I'm designing [laughs], which is unrelated to our conversation, that's on, mostly on Instagram. But I don't have any way for people to subscribe, I don't have a Substack or anything like that. So I do post on Instagram when I have a new piece up, so that's one way you can sort of keep up.Sy Hoekstra: Awesome.Jonathan Walton: Nice.Sy Hoekstra: Matt is a jack of all trades [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Nice.Matt Lumpkin: Life's too short to do one thing.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Matt, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. We really appreciate you coming on and for being a part of the anthology.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, man.Matt Lumpkin: Thank you so much. And I just want to say again, thank you for the work that you're doing in decentering us White guys and centering the voices of people of color, of women. I saw your recent episode you were highlighting the challenges around birth and women of color. I'm so inspired by the way that you guys are bringing together these real deep awareness and understanding of the hard problems that we face, and also keeping that connected to communities of faith and people who are striving to be faithful to the life and teachings of Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much, Matt. We really appreciate that.Jonathan Walton: I appreciate that, man. Thanks so much.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jonathan Walton: att's handle on Instagram is @mattlumpkin, and we'll have that link plus his website in the show notes.Sy's and Jonathan's Thoughts on the InterviewJonathan Walton: All right Sy, what are you thinking about that interview?Sy Hoekstra: Too much [Jonathan laughs].Conspiracies vs. Prophecies Is a Crucial DistinctionSy Hoekstra: Well, okay, I have two main thoughts that I would like to highlight. One of them, I just once again, I would like everybody in the world to be making the distinction between prophets and conspiracy theorists [laughter] in terms of what people are asking you to do with the stories they're telling you. If they're asking you to do nothing except oppose all of the evil that is out there in the world, versus asking you to examine yourself and see how you can change and make the world a better place. If everybody in the world was on the lookout for that, man, we would be in a better place [laughs] in our society.Addressing How Conservatives Would Process This ConversationBut second, I just wanted to address some tension that I sometimes feel when we're having conversations like this that I'm sure other people feel as well.In conversations like these and a lot, we're talking about conservatives or White Evangelicals or people who believe in conspiracy theories or whatever. It's conversations about these people. These people over here, who we are not a part of. And we're trying to be humane by understanding what it is that, what makes them tick, what it is that puts them into the places where they are. But it's always from our perspective, how did they get into the position where they are so wrong. That's really what we're asking. And we're not just asking that about people who are involved in QAnon, we're asking that about just kind of everyday conservative White Evangelicals or White Christians of any kind, or lots [laughs] of people who just subscribe to whiteness, who may or may not actually be White.But the people who actually hold those positions would not really see this conversation as humane. They would mostly see it as condescending. They would mostly see it as, “You trying to understand how I got to the place where I'm so wrong, is not you being generous or kind, it's you being kind of a jerk.” [laughs]How to  Think about the Narratives We Have about People We Disagree withSy Hoekstra: And the thing that I always have to remember, and I just wanted to kind of flag this for our listeners, is that really that is kind of just the nature of disagreeing. Anybody who disagrees about anything has some story, conscious or not about why the other person is wrong. That's just the nature of the diversity of thought, just having people who disagree about stuff. That's going to be what happens in a society, you're going to be making up stories about the other people and why they disagree with you.But what you get the choice of doing is trying to understand people the best you can, or dehumanizing them and attributing bad faith to them. Or saying, “Oh, the reason you think that is because of, I don't know, you're just those people.” I'm not trying to come up with any coherent psychological framework that makes sense of where you are. I'm just saying, “Ah, you're just a bunch of racists.” Or it could be, “Oh, you're just Black people. You're just inferior.” Anything like that. Anything that's dehumanizing, whatever, you can choose to do that, or you can choose to understand people as best you can, given the reality that you disagree with them and think that they're wildly wrong and that their views are harmful. So I just want everyone to remember that. Everyone's doing this, it's just about how you go about it. I don't know. I hope other people also sometimes feel that tension and I'm not just addressing no one, but that was a thought that I thought it might be worth sharing. What do you think, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, it is very possible to disagree with someone without disrespecting or dehumanizing them.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: That is possible, but the amount of work that that takes, most of us are unwilling to do at this point in time. And what's sad about that is, and I think a couple of things that stood out to me, is that the main point of what he said in the essay he wrote for the anthology, and this is like, what am I going to gain if I hang out with this conspiracy theory? What am I going to keep, what am I going to get? What am I going to maintain if I believe this, and then if I not just think it, but believe it, and then act like it's true, and then enforce that reality on other people, what do I gain? And that to me, I think stands out to me because humanity, particularly though anyone upstream of a power dynamic has shown just an incredible capacity to enforce things that are not true to maintain power, authority, privilege and resources.Our Ability to Lie to Ourselves to Maintain OppressionOur capacity to innovate, to maintain lies, is fascinating. So when he talked about the Pentecostal who says Jesus is coming back in 1988 on January 13, and then Jesus doesn't show up, they got another revelation, and they don't lose any followers.Sy Hoekstra: This is in the essay, not in the interview.Jonathan Walton: Oh, so sorry.Sy Hoekstra: No, it's fine.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, but just that constant innovation and the individualization of your relationship with God, to the point that there's this entire reality that's constructed, and to deconstruct that reality would be so disorienting that we would rather just function as though it is true. So that confirmation bias where we then go seek out information then it sounds true, and so we add it to our toolkit to maintain our reality, that to me feels, and I need to think about this more, but feels at the root of a lot of injustices.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: So it's like, I won't change this, because it would change everything about my life, and I'd rather just not change. So I'm going to keep it this way. So whether it's men and patriarchy, able-bodied folks and disabled folks, Black folks and everybody else, wealthy people and poor people, we'd just rather not change. So I'm just, I'm not going to do that. And then Newt Gingrich said, “Well, it doesn't feel true, so the facts don't matter.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And that to me stood out. And then Kellyanne Conway, an iteration of him just coming back and saying, that just saying “alternative facts.” Like what are we talking about? [laughs] In some world that feels plausible, and because it feels plausible, it must be true. And then their entire apparatuses, religious, political, social, familial, built around protecting these realities. And if we could just shake ourselves away from that, that would be wonderful. But it is... [laughs] I mean, when Jesus says, “You shall learn the truth, and the truth shall set you free,” there is just freedom in living in the truth, like what is actually there. So the last thing I'll say is I appreciated his emphasis on the reality that truth and knowing happens in community.It does not happen like me going to the mountain, getting it, then coming down and living unaccountable to anyone. This is not how it works. I say this in every single prayer workshop I do, the Lord's Prayer starts off “Our Father,” not “My daddy” [Sy laughs]. It just doesn't start like that [laughs]. So how can we have a more collective, communal relationship with God and one another?Sy Hoekstra: The thing you just said about the skill of being able to maintain falsehood, it feels particularly important to me in maintaining systems of oppression after they've been built. Because they're usually built on a lie, and then at some point that lie can get exposed and that can threaten the whole system, but the system can survive by evolving. We've talked about this before. You can get rid of slavery, but the essential lie behind slavery stays and justifies every Jim Crow and segregation and the Black Codes and sharecropping and all that. So there's a refining almost of how good you can get at lying to people until you have a not insignificant number of people talking about lizard people [laughs].And it's just I'm almost sometimes impressed by how skilled evil is at understanding humanity. Does that make sense? [laughter]Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, not to quote myself. In Twelve Lies I talked about how whiteness, White American folk religion, race-based, class-based, gender-based hierarchy is forever innovating. And the current container is in the United States of America, and it's being perfected.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, it's forever innovating, and it's good at it. That's what I'm saying. Which is why we spend so much time emphasizing how much you have to keep learning and being alert and praying. I'm going to say everything except “stay woke” [laughter]. Any other thoughts or should we get to our segment?Jonathan Walton: The only other thing I would say, and I almost started a whole thing about this, was just the importance of critical thinking. Just basic being willing to ask, why? Like, hey, Hillary Clinton is actually part of a race of lizard people that drink children's blood to get this chemical that's going to make them eternal. Why do you believe that [Sy laughs]? Like a person, a real human person went to a pizza place with a gun. That is a real thing that happened. Folks show up and ask questions. Like we cited this resource in a newsletter probably three years ago where the New York Times did this amazing podcast called Rabbit Hole. And this young man who worked an overnight job stocking shelves in one of the Midwestern states listened to podcasts every single night. Podcast and YouTube videos that drove him to become an extremist. And then he changed his podcast diet, he changed his YouTube diet, and then he realized, you know what, maybe I don't have to be afraid of everybody. He just started asking, why.There are people around him that said, “Hey, why do you believe the things that you do? Why are you becoming more afraid? Why do you feel the need to arm yourself? What do you think is going to happen?” Just people asking him questions, and he was willing to engage. So friends, just to love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. We can think. And that would be just a wonderful thing to push back against the anti academy thing that exists within modern Evangelicalism and most patterns of dominant religious thought.Sy Hoekstra: We can think, and that would be a wonderful thing. That's the pull quote.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Right.Sy Hoekstra: That's the t-shirt [laughs].Jonathan Walton: That's true.Which Tab Is Still Open?Sy Hoekstra: All right. Jonathan, let's get into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little bit deeper. We're really shifting gears here from conspiracy theories [laughs] to Albert Camus, where we dive a little bit deeper into one of our recommendations from our newsletter. That newsletter is free at KTFPress.com. Get recommendations from us on discipleship and political education each week, along with resources to help you stay grounded and hopeful, news about KTF Press, all kinds of other great stuff at www.ktfpress.com. Jonathan, for you, out of all the stuff we've been writing about in the newsletter, Which Tab is Still Open, can you tell us about it?Jonathan Walton: Okay, friends, we are going from not thinking at all to thinking very deeply. Okay?Sy Hoekstra: Yes [laughter].Jonathan Walton: So this episode of a podcast called The Gray Area, where the host Sean Illing talks with a historian and philosopher, Robert Zaretsky about the politics and the ethics of Algerian philosopher Albert Camus. Again, we're going to think really hard, so go with me. Camus lived through the colonial occupation and the French annexation of Algeria. And he also lived through the violent struggle between Algerian rebel forces and the French army. He opposed France's policies of discrimination and oppression of the Algerian people, but never fully endorsed Algerian independence. So leftists thought of him as a moderate. Keep going with me, okay?He also believed that killing was wrong no matter who was doing it, and that neither the rebels nor the French had a monopoly on truth. But he was not abstract. He thought that violence was inevitable. He just couldn't justify it being used against innocent people, even in the name of freedom. He was not at all abstract or a systemic thinker. Like a lot of European philosophers, he was grounded in reality of day to day suffering that he had lived, and his conviction was that it was simply wrong.Prioritizing Vulnerable People in the Halls of PowerSo as I listened to this episode, the thing that just fascinated me about Camus is that it is possible to hang out in the biggest halls of academic power, to win awards, as he did for his literature and novels and essays, but to stay grounded in the village, to stay grounded in the community, to stay grounded in reality.Because I think something that struck me, my daughter does gymnastics and she got the chance to go to a state competition, and I was walking with her through a college campus, it was her first time on a college university campus. And I thought to myself, the distance between where my daughter is right now and the quote- unquote, grandeur of this university is all false. The reality is, these are just kids. This is the same kid that was in the neighborhood an hour ago that drove to this place to do flips and tricks in this new gym. The walls might be shinier, the mats might be cleaner, it may be a bigger stage, but the reality is we are just people doing the same things together in a different venue.So Camus, even though he was at a university, held the village with him, even though he was at a newspaper, held the village with him. Even though people were pushing back against him, held the village with him. So how can I Jonathan Walton, Ivy League educated person, or you listening with whatever background you have, hold fast to the reality that the things we say and do impact vulnerable people? I can't just say that there's an invasion at the southern border and not think that there are implications to that. I can't just say, grab women by their genitals. I can't just say that and not think that something's going to happen. The reality of the things that I say and the things that I do impacts people downstream of me is something I have to hold fast to.And just what Camus said, violence is inevitable and totally unjustifiable. I think that felt to me as one of the truest things I've heard in a very long time, is that, do I think that all of a sudden, on this side of heaven, violence is going to stop? No. At the same time, could I ever justify in the name of Jesus, violating the image of God in someone else for whatever cause? No, I cannot, because Jesus didn't do it. If violence was justifiable, then Jesus absolutely would have joined Peter and started the revolution, or did it beforehand, which I wrote about. If I was Jesus, I would have slapped Zacchaeus so hard in the moment.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Wait, Zacchaeus?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I wrote a piece called “Jesus Didn't Slap Zacchaeus” [Sy laughs]. Just that reality of even before Pilate, because, you know, there's other things happening with Pilate. But it's like if I was Jesus and Zacchaeus is standing right there. He stole money from my family for years and years and years and years. He betrayed our people. He did all that. And he's short, he's standing there, I'm stronger than him, the crowd is behind me. Pow! I would have done it and felt totally justified. But Jesus doesn't do that, just like he doesn't throw himself off the cross and start the revolution. Just like he doesn't call angels to intercede and do things on his behalf. He stays in line with his vision and mission and calling because he knows the cup that he has to drink. And so Camus messed me up.Sy Hoekstra: The thing that I wanted to highlight from the podcast was a story that I think the guests, I think Zaretsky told about Camus being confronted by a student from Algeria saying, “Why aren't you supporting the rebel forces who are fighting the French? Why haven't you, in an outspoken way, said that what they're doing is good?” And he says, “Look, at this very moment they are placing bombs under tram cars in Algiers, and my mother could be on one of those tram cars. And if what they are doing is justice, then I prefer my mother.”Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And I think that's kind of what you're talking about. Just this, he just had this wall in his mind where he's like, “You cannot, you can't kill my people and call it justice, and call it goodness. I will not let you do that.” And that's, I'll talk about this in a minute, the place that he leaves you in politically and morally and whatever, is very difficult, but you got to respect the integrity [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. A thousand percent. The other thing that I really appreciate about this podcast is that Sean Illing, when he opens the podcast, addresses a reader or a listener who sent him a handwritten letter asking him why he had not addressed Israel, Palestine. And I respect him, and I respect his answer. And I suspect that other journalists and politicians are being confronted, whether on Instagram or not like, “Why aren't you doing x, y and z?” So I just appreciated Sean's, I'm talking about him like I know him, Sean Illing's candor and honesty to open the podcast. I think it just set the tone, really, really well.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, I totally agree with that.Jonathan Walton: So Sean, I mean, Sean, what do you think? So Sy, what do you think about the podcast? [laughs]Sy Hoekstra: I, Sean Illing, believe… [Jonathan laughs] Yeah, no, this podcast had me deep in my feelings is what I'm saying.Despair about Violence and Hope without Answers are Both BiblicalSy Hoekstra: First of all, I don't say this a lot, but I think French existentialism might actually be a decent way to respond to Pale

As war continues to rage in the Middle East, attention has been turned to how American Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians relate to the state of Israel. But when we talk about the region, American Christians, particularly evangelical Christians, are often not part of that story. But their political support for Israel is a major driver for U.S. policy — in part because Evangelicals make up an organized, dedicated constituency with the numbers to exert major influence on U.S. politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

According to Pew Research, 86% of White Evangelicals believe the Bible should influence American politics. Comedian John Fugelsang, Instagram influencer Eve_WasFramed and author Desimber Rose join us to explain why that's a bad idea.If you want to call in to the Bonus Show, leave a voicemail at (530) 332-8020.LINKSQuoirCast on PatreonQuoirCast on PatheosPANELJohn FugelsangEve_WasFramedDesimber Rose

Show #2142 Show Notes: Saturday Night Live this Saturday: https://coachdavelive.com/event/snl2 Benny Hinn apologizes: https://acnntv.com/evangelist-benny-hinn-tenders-public-apology-for-false-teachings/ Walpurgisnacht (Witches’ Sabbath): https://storytellersnightsky.com/walpurgisnacht-or-the-witches-sabbath-this-eve-of-may-day-april-30th Craig’s Passover Prayer: https://thelibertyactionnetwork.com/passover-prayer-of-remembrance-and-protection/ 7 Pagan Holidays Adopted by Christians: https://parkervillas.com/pagan-holidays-adopted-by-christianity/ Eva Vlaardingerbroek Speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWlSJ_GFTJU Dave […]

Sarah McCammon's The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church uses relevant anecdotes from her evangelical childhood and skillfully weaves her story together with sociological data and interviews of former evangelicals. Her conclusion is definitive. American evangelicalism actually causes harm.Tragically, McCammon ends the book not only having denied the existence of Hell, and the need for the gospel, but of the resurrection of the dead. The entire contents of the Christian faith discarded, she hopes that she will be able, one day, to peacefully. As McCammon acknowledges, it is not exceptional to find people who have left the faith of their childhood. One new feature of deconstruction facing evangelicals today, however, is the preponderance of “trauma” narratives. Evangelicalism, according to McCammon, isn't just wrong-headed or untrue. It is harmful. It is an abiding consolation we read about the disappointments and judgments of those who have walked away, that our Lord Jesus, as He stood on trial before an earthly ruler who would condemn Him to death, insisted that the Truth—He in Himself—would be the salvation of all who believe.This Postmodern Realities episode is a conversation with JOURNAL author Anne Kennedy  about her online article, “Fear, Loathing, and Deconverting from the White Evangelical Church: A Review of ‘The Exvangelicals' by Sarah McCammon”  This is also part of an ongoing column entitled, “Theological Trends”. https://www.equip.org/articles/fear-loathing-and-deconverting-from-the-white-evangelical-church-a-review-of-the-exvangelicals-by-sarah-mccammon/Other recent articles and podcast with this author:Episode 386 Can a Christian Attend a Gay Wedding? Alistair Begg and the Bad PhariseeCan a Christian Attend a Gay Wedding? Alistair Begg and the Bad PhariseeEpisode 379 Enough For What? A Review of Scot McKnight's ‘The Bible is Not Enough'Enough For What? A Review of Scot McKnight's ‘The Bible is Not Enough'Episode 374 Did Pope Francis Authorize Priests to Bless Same-Sex Couples?Did Pope Francis Authorize Priests to Bless Same-Sex Couples?Episode 370 Sheila Wray Gregoire, Sex and The Evangelical GirlSheila Wray Gregoire, Sex and The Evangelical Girl

NPR National Political correspondent Sarah McCammon recently released "The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church." It is part memoir and part exploration into the role Evangelicals play in politics. In a conversation with St. Louis Public Radio's Jason Rosenbaum, McCammon first talked about how her book connected with a wide audience — including people who didn't grow up Evangelical like her.

With his several divorces, violent rhetoric, and long list of criminal charges, former President Donald Trump may not be your idea of a God-fearing Christian. But that hasn't stopped him from appealing to his Christian base.Roughly 8 out of 10 white Evangelicals supported Trump in the 2016 general presidential election. And a recent Pew Research survey found that among religious groups, white Evangelical Protestants had a more positive opinion of Trump than any other group, whereas the majority of Jewish Americans, Black protestants, and atheists all had an unfavorable opinion of Trump.Despite their outsized political power, the white Evangelical church is shrinking. According to the Public Religion Research Institute, about 14 percent of the population identifies as white and evangelical. That's compared 25 percent in the 1990s.Today, we focus on white Evangelical Christians and the effect they will have on the 2024 election.Want to support 1A? Give to your local public radio station and subscribe to this podcast. Have questions? Connect with us. Listen to 1A sponsor-free by signing up for 1A+ at plus.npr.org/the1a.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

For the most part, Sarah McCammon followed the rules set by her Evangelical family. She was taught to obey God, not to question her faith, and that her eternal salvation was secured in heaven. She later left the church, but soon saw the power of evangelical Christian beliefs on the political right after covering the Trump campaign in 2016 for NPR. Reset learns more about McCammon's journey and the power she sees in that conservative religious community. For a full archive of Reset interviews, head over to wbez.org/reset.

This week we're so grateful to be sitting down with Sarah McCammon. Sarah is the author of the newly released book The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church. She is a National Political Correspondent for NPR and cohost of The NPR Politics Podcast. Her work focuses on political, social and cultural divides in America, including the intersections of politics and religion, reproductive rights, and the conservative movement. She is also a frequent guest host for NPR news magazines and has appeared on the BBC, CNN, PBS, and MSNBC. During the 2016 election cycle, Sarah was NPR's lead political reporter assigned to the Donald Trump campaign and previously reported for NPR Member stations in Georgia, Iowa, and Nebraska. She lives in Norfolk, Virginia with her husband and two children. Subscribe to her substack at: https://substack.com/@sarahmccammon or follow her on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/sarahmccammon If you enjoy listening to the show, please consider heading over to apple podcasts to rate and review us. If you really enjoy the show, we would love to see you in our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/ThereafterPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Also, look for us on social media and shoot us a message to say hello, or chat with us in Twitter spaces on Tuesday mornings in deconstruction coffee hour! Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@ThereafterPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@CortlandCoffey⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@ThePursuingLife⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@ThereafterPodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@CortlandCoffey⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@ThePursuingLife

Today we're talking about a key voting bloc in this year’s elections: white evangelical Christian voters. In 2016 and 2020, they helped Donald Trump rise to power. NPR’s Sarah McCammon, author of “Exvangelicals,” discusses why evangelicals continue to back Trump, her personal journey leaving evangelicalism and the economic systems built around the evangelical movement. We’ll also talk about the Maryland bridge collapse and the state of U.S. infrastructure. Plus, Neil King Jr., author of the memoir “American Ramble,” answers the Make Me Smart question. Here’s everything we talked about today: “‘You gotta be tough’: White evangelicals remain enthusiastic about Donald Trump” from NPR “How younger voters will impact elections: What is happening to the white evangelical vote?” from Brookings “Why White Evangelicals Stuck with Trump” from the University of Chicago Divinity School “Latinos Will Determine the Future of American Evangelicalism” from The Atlantic “Bridge Collapse in Baltimore Puts an Election Year Spotlight on Infrastructure” from The New York Times “Elon Musk's Starlink Terminals Are Falling Into the Wrong Hands” from Bloomberg We want to hear your answer to the Make Me Smart question. You can reach us at makemesmart@marketplace.org or leave us a voicemail at 508-U-B-SMART.

Today we're talking about a key voting bloc in this year’s elections: white evangelical Christian voters. In 2016 and 2020, they helped Donald Trump rise to power. NPR’s Sarah McCammon, author of “Exvangelicals,” discusses why evangelicals continue to back Trump, her personal journey leaving evangelicalism and the economic systems built around the evangelical movement. We’ll also talk about the Maryland bridge collapse and the state of U.S. infrastructure. Plus, Neil King Jr., author of the memoir “American Ramble,” answers the Make Me Smart question. Here’s everything we talked about today: “‘You gotta be tough’: White evangelicals remain enthusiastic about Donald Trump” from NPR “How younger voters will impact elections: What is happening to the white evangelical vote?” from Brookings “Why White Evangelicals Stuck with Trump” from the University of Chicago Divinity School “Latinos Will Determine the Future of American Evangelicalism” from The Atlantic “Bridge Collapse in Baltimore Puts an Election Year Spotlight on Infrastructure” from The New York Times “Elon Musk's Starlink Terminals Are Falling Into the Wrong Hands” from Bloomberg We want to hear your answer to the Make Me Smart question. You can reach us at makemesmart@marketplace.org or leave us a voicemail at 508-U-B-SMART.

Today we're talking about a key voting bloc in this year’s elections: white evangelical Christian voters. In 2016 and 2020, they helped Donald Trump rise to power. NPR’s Sarah McCammon, author of “Exvangelicals,” discusses why evangelicals continue to back Trump, her personal journey leaving evangelicalism and the economic systems built around the evangelical movement. We’ll also talk about the Maryland bridge collapse and the state of U.S. infrastructure. Plus, Neil King Jr., author of the memoir “American Ramble,” answers the Make Me Smart question. Here’s everything we talked about today: “‘You gotta be tough’: White evangelicals remain enthusiastic about Donald Trump” from NPR “How younger voters will impact elections: What is happening to the white evangelical vote?” from Brookings “Why White Evangelicals Stuck with Trump” from the University of Chicago Divinity School “Latinos Will Determine the Future of American Evangelicalism” from The Atlantic “Bridge Collapse in Baltimore Puts an Election Year Spotlight on Infrastructure” from The New York Times “Elon Musk's Starlink Terminals Are Falling Into the Wrong Hands” from Bloomberg We want to hear your answer to the Make Me Smart question. You can reach us at makemesmart@marketplace.org or leave us a voicemail at 508-U-B-SMART.

Belonging to a church can offer a feeling of community, and leaving a church can feel like you're leaving part of yourself behind. Sarah McCammon is national political correspondent for NPR and co-host of the NPR Politics Podcast. She joins host Krys Boyd to discuss when politics get in the way of religious beliefs in evangelical churches, and how that's driving some members away. Her book is “The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church.”

Our guest this week recently traveled down to the border to confront the so-called “Army of God” as part of a larger project of providing alternative ideologies to Christian nationalism. Doug Pagitt is a pastor, author and the executive director of Vote Common Good, an organization aimed at influencing evangelical Christians. His group has been on a nationwide tour focused on directly engaging evangelicals in key swing states with the hope of swaying a critical percentage of them against former President Donald Trump. Pagitt believes a small portion of these voters are swayable and that if they are engaged, election outcomes can be flipped. He joins WITHpod to discuss the trajectory of evangelical politics, what he's learned on tour and what's at stake in this year's election.

Summary Sarah McCammon discusses her book, The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living and Leaving the White Evangelical Church, and her personal journey of leaving the white evangelical church. She explores the reasons for writing the book and the motivations behind the exvangelical movement.  Takeaways The exvangelical movement is a diverse and complex phenomenon, with individuals leaving the white evangelical church for a variety of reasons. Explores themes such as religious trauma, LGBTQ experiences, race, and science, providing a comprehensive look at the experiences of those who have left the evangelical church. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 01:05 Motivation for Writing the Book 04:31 Reasons for Leaving the Evangelical Church 10:07 Themes Explored in the Book 17:31 Understanding Evangelicalism in the Media 33:39 Debunking the Notion of Exvangelicals as Anti-Religion 40:22 The Rise of Protestantism 42:45 The Impact of the Internet 45:30 A Shift in Evangelicalism 48:02 The Weaponization of Religion 48:58 Empathy and Understanding Read The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living and Leaving the White Evangelical Church by Sarah McCammon Check out our website for merch, educational materials, and how to join our community! If you'd like to support our work, you can DONATE here! Follow Us On Instagram @thenewevangelicals  Subscribe On YouTube The New Evangelicals exists to support those who are tired of how evangelical church has been done before and want to see an authentic faith lived out with Jesus at the center. On this channel, you'll see videos from our founder Tim Whitaker and our incredible guests as they react and respond biblically to topics such as Christian Nationalism, church hurt, terrible Christian movies, bad conservative Christian takes, and MUCH more!  We are committed to building a caring community that emulates the ways of Jesus by reclaiming the evangelical tradition and embracing values that build a better way forward. If you've been marginalized by your faith, you are welcome here. We've built an empathetic and inclusive space that encourages authentic conversations, connections and faith. Whether you consider yourself a Christian, an exvangelical, someone who's questioning your faith, or someone who's left the faith entirely, you are welcome here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the fourth and final episode of “The Threat of White Christian Nationalism”, host Reed Galen is joined by investigative journalist and author Sarah Posner. They discuss the historical roots of the Christian right (including the opposition to desegregation and the rise of the prosperity gospel), what MAGA learns from Christian nationalism's spiritual warfare and charismatic worship practices, and what a possible Trump victory (or loss) would mean for the movement of white Christian nationalism. If you'd like to hear more from Sarah Posner, be sure to pick up her latest book, Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship at the Altar of Donald Trump. For more from Reed Galen, subscribe to “The Home Front”. If you'd like to ask a question or share a comment with The Lincoln Project, send an email to podcast@lincolnproject.us. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are Christians against Racism? Created by Trevor Poelman Special thanks to the Better Internet Initiative Support Belief It Or Not Brought to you By: The Sonar Network https://thesonarnetwork.com/

Patreon supporters who give $5 a month will get an ad-free version of the show!Join our private Facebook group and Discord server!Jessica and I spoke about several stories from the past week involving religion and politics.— Telling the truth about modern evangelical Christianity means admitting it's harmful. (1:12)— Christian Nationalist Jason Rapert thwarted in attempt to block funds for public libraries. (40:24)— After atheist's invocation, Tavares (FL) City Council lets Christian give replacement prayer. (53:28)— Christian hate group leader claims fellow hate group isn't hate group. (59:50)SPONSOR: Sign up today at butcherbox.com/friendly and use code friendly to choose your free offer and get $20 off. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Patreon supporters who give $5 a month will get an ad-free version of the show! Join our private Facebook group and Discord server! Jessica and I spoke about several stories from the past week involving religion and politics. — Telling the truth about modern evangelical Christianity means admitting it's harmful. (1:12) — Christian Nationalist Jason Rapert thwarted in attempt to block funds for public libraries. (40:24) — After atheist's invocation, Tavares (FL) City Council lets Christian give replacement prayer. (53:28) — Christian hate group leader claims fellow hate group isn't hate group. (59:50) SPONSOR: Sign up today at butcherbox.com/friendly and use code friendly to choose your free offer and get $20 off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With Nikki Haley set to make a last stand of sorts in the South Carolina primary later this month, there's a hidden reason that Donald Trump has been so dominant throughout the GOP nomination process: White evangelicals. Their support for Trump has held through impeachments, scandals, revelations about sexual assault, multiple serious criminal prosecutions, and even an insurrection attempt. We talked to Sarah Posner, a scholar of the religious right, about Trump's extraordinary hold on these voters—and why it's changing the Republican Party in insidious, alarming ways. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With Nikki Haley set to make a last stand of sorts in the South Carolina primary later this month, there's a hidden reason that Donald Trump has been so dominant throughout the GOP nomination process: White evangelicals. Their support for Trump has held through impeachments, scandals, revelations about sexual assault, multiple serious criminal prosecutions, and even an insurrection attempt. We talked to Sarah Posner, a scholar of the religious right, about Trump's extraordinary hold on these voters—and why it's changing the Republican Party in insidious, alarming ways.

With Nikki Haley set to make a last stand of sorts in the South Carolina primary later this month, there's a hidden reason that Donald Trump has been so dominant throughout the GOP nomination process: White evangelicals. Their support for Trump has held through impeachments, scandals, revelations about sexual assault, multiple serious criminal prosecutions, and even an insurrection attempt. We talked to Sarah Posner, a scholar of the religious right, about Trump's extraordinary hold on these voters—and why it's changing the Republican Party in insidious, alarming ways. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

REID - TRUMP HAS WHITE EVANGELICALS TO HELP HIM WIN

Through two years of ethnographic fieldwork at a megachurch, sociologist Dr. Sarah Diefendorf investigates the ways in which the evangelical church is working to grow during a time in which cultural shifts are leading young people to leave religion behind. In order to expand, the church has revisited topics long understood as external threats to the organization, such as feminism, gender equality, racial inclusivity, and queer life—topics Diefendorf classifies as the “imagined secular” in the minds of evangelicals. The Holy Vote: Inequality and Anxiety among White Evangelicals (University of California Press, 2023) shows, however, that the church continues to uphold already privileged identities even as it reworks its messages to appear more welcoming, offering insight into how White evangelical understandings about sex and families have shaped a political movement that has helped remake the Republican Party and transform American politics. In this enlightening work, Diefendorf highlights the complex origins of these understandings and considers their intersections with contemporary culture and enduring social inequalities. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose forthcoming book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Through two years of ethnographic fieldwork at a megachurch, sociologist Dr. Sarah Diefendorf investigates the ways in which the evangelical church is working to grow during a time in which cultural shifts are leading young people to leave religion behind. In order to expand, the church has revisited topics long understood as external threats to the organization, such as feminism, gender equality, racial inclusivity, and queer life—topics Diefendorf classifies as the “imagined secular” in the minds of evangelicals. The Holy Vote: Inequality and Anxiety among White Evangelicals (University of California Press, 2023) shows, however, that the church continues to uphold already privileged identities even as it reworks its messages to appear more welcoming, offering insight into how White evangelical understandings about sex and families have shaped a political movement that has helped remake the Republican Party and transform American politics. In this enlightening work, Diefendorf highlights the complex origins of these understandings and considers their intersections with contemporary culture and enduring social inequalities. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose forthcoming book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/political-science

Through two years of ethnographic fieldwork at a megachurch, sociologist Dr. Sarah Diefendorf investigates the ways in which the evangelical church is working to grow during a time in which cultural shifts are leading young people to leave religion behind. In order to expand, the church has revisited topics long understood as external threats to the organization, such as feminism, gender equality, racial inclusivity, and queer life—topics Diefendorf classifies as the “imagined secular” in the minds of evangelicals. The Holy Vote: Inequality and Anxiety among White Evangelicals (University of California Press, 2023) shows, however, that the church continues to uphold already privileged identities even as it reworks its messages to appear more welcoming, offering insight into how White evangelical understandings about sex and families have shaped a political movement that has helped remake the Republican Party and transform American politics. In this enlightening work, Diefendorf highlights the complex origins of these understandings and considers their intersections with contemporary culture and enduring social inequalities. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose forthcoming book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/sociology

Through two years of ethnographic fieldwork at a megachurch, sociologist Dr. Sarah Diefendorf investigates the ways in which the evangelical church is working to grow during a time in which cultural shifts are leading young people to leave religion behind. In order to expand, the church has revisited topics long understood as external threats to the organization, such as feminism, gender equality, racial inclusivity, and queer life—topics Diefendorf classifies as the “imagined secular” in the minds of evangelicals. The Holy Vote: Inequality and Anxiety among White Evangelicals (University of California Press, 2023) shows, however, that the church continues to uphold already privileged identities even as it reworks its messages to appear more welcoming, offering insight into how White evangelical understandings about sex and families have shaped a political movement that has helped remake the Republican Party and transform American politics. In this enlightening work, Diefendorf highlights the complex origins of these understandings and considers their intersections with contemporary culture and enduring social inequalities. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose forthcoming book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

For decades, Evangelicals have propped up Republican presidents. And while church attendance has fallen across the board, Evangelicals are still making waves politically; they just helped deliver Trump a historic win in the Iowa caucus. But the political bent of Evangelicals begs for closer inspection because white Americans who align with Trump are more likely to start identifying as Evangelical, even if some of them no longer sit up in the pews. NPR Political Correspondent Sarah McCammon joins the show to dig into host Brittany Luse's question: are Evangelicals now a religious group or a political one? Then, after calls for a ceasefire interrupted President Biden's speech at Mother Emanuel AME Church, many people denounced the protest saying that it was not the right time or place. But Brittany wonders; if not there, then where? She sits down with Dr. Anthea Butler, religious scholar and chair of the department of Religious Studies at the University of Pennsylvania, to dive into the roots of political activism within the Black church. They also look at the complicated relationship between Democrats and the Black church.

This week The Soul of the Nation welcomes Tim Alberta, an award-winning journalist, staff writer for The Atlantic magazine and author of the bestselling new book “The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory: American Evangelicalism in an Age of Extremism” Alberta is also the son of an evangelical pastor who was raised in Michigan. His new book raises the important questions: What is the purpose of the Christian church? And why have so many white evangelicals sold their souls for Donald Trump? See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/eX7GZjdC4DEWhy can't people get over talking about race? Ever heard that line? Or, how about: We live in a post-racial world. We've even had a black president! If racism doesn't exist, then we don't have to deal with it. Yet racism, sadly, is alive and well—not just in our culture, but within the church. On this edition of The Roys Report (TRR), Dr. Lainna Callentine—an educator, pediatrician, and former evangelical faith leader—delivers a powerful talk from our recent Restore Conference. Lainna has walked an incredibly difficult and painful journey as a Black woman in the evangelical church. This is a journey that white evangelicals often don't acknowledge. And it's an experience that Julie Roys, TRR founder and a friend of Lainna's, admits that she once didn't believe or affirm. But, just as Julie's eyes have been opened to abuse and corruption in the church, the past few years have given her a new awareness of racism in the church, as you'll hear in Julie's introduction of Lainna's talk. Lainna's talk, which is rich with history and personal anecdotes, has the power to open the eyes of many others. Please listen with a heart and mind open to what Lainna and the Holy Spirit have to say. Guests Lainna Callentine, M.D., M.Ed. Lainna Callentine, M.D., M.Ed., is a pediatrician, former homeschool mother, master's trained educator, and creator of curriculum program, Sciexperience. Dr. Callentine received her B.A. from Northwestern University and completed her M.D. at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. She has taught all levels from early childhood to postgraduate students. Learn more at sciexperience.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys, LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. Julie Roys  00:04Why can’t people just get over talking about race? Ever heard that line? Or how about, we live in a post racial world, we even had a black president. Of course, if racism doesn’t exist, then we don’t have to deal with it. But as you’re about to hear racism, sadly is alive and well, not just in our culture, but within the church. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And on this podcast, you’re about to hear a powerful talk from our RESTORE conference by Dr. Lainna CALLENTINE Lainna is a pediatrician and an educator and a former faith leader in the evangelical church. But she’s also a friend of mine who’s walked an incredibly difficult and painful journey as a black woman in the white Evangelical Church. This is a journey that white evangelicals often don’t acknowledge. And as you’ll hear, it’s an experience I once didn’t believe or affirm. But just like I’ve had my eyes opened to abuse and corruption in the church, the past few years have opened my eyes to racism in the church as well. And coming to terms with this reality has been hard because I’ve had to deal with my own ignorance and indifference. And I’ve had to acknowledge my complicity with a sinful system that treats persons of color as less than full bearers of the image of God. But what Lainna did, coming into a predominantly white space and delivering this message was even harder. And I think that’s something I haven’t realized until recently as well. So many of our Black, Hispanic, Asian, and indigenous brothers and sisters have been profoundly wounded and traumatized by white Christians. And they have every reason to expect that when they speak to us, they’ll be minimized, dismissed, and traumatized again. I’m grateful that didn’t happen at RESTORE and I hope like the audience at RESTORE, you’ll open your heart and your mind to receive this important message from Dr. Lainna Callentine on surviving white evangelical racism.   Julie Roys  01:57 But before we hear from Lena, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM   Julie Roys  03:01 Well, again, you’re about to hear a talk by Dr. Lainna Callentine on surviving and thriving beyond white evangelical racism. I’ve also included in this podcast a portion of my introduction of Lainna at RESTORE, which includes an important apology. For time sake, I’ve had to remove my description of how my eyes were opened to racism in the church, while investigating what happened at Bethlehem Baptist Church, the Church John Piper pastored for three decades. But I encourage you if you want to understand more about the covert nature of racism in the evangelical church, go back and listen to our two-part podcast on what happened at Bethlehem Baptist Church when you’re finished with Lainna’s talk. But now here’s Lainna’s powerful talk at RESTORE 2023 with a short introduction and apology by me.   Julie Roys  03:49 So, three weeks ago, our next guest and I got together at her request, and we talked for about four hours. And she said, Julie, I just don’t know if I can do this talk. And she said this is what normally happens when I come into a predominantly white audience, and I talk about the trauma I’ve experienced as an African American woman in the church. So, I go out there and I bleed,  I bare my soul, and then they look at me with eyes of disbelief., and they just go on their way. And I mostly listened because I really didn’t have a lot to say, and I just needed to hear. And then she reminded me about how we had gotten together because our next guest is a friend of mine. In fact, she was my daughter’s 11th grade biology teacher. And she reminded me of a time we got together in a coffee house, and she shared her, really bared her soul to me, about all the racism that she had experienced. And she said, Julie, I didn’t feel like you believed me either. And the truth is six, seven, however, many years ago, this was I didn’t really believe it. I mean, I believe there was probably some racism in the church. It really wasn’t until I did the investigation on Bethlehem Baptist Church, John Piper’s church, and I got to know these people who had persons of color that had gotten together, had a dinner for the first time where it was just them. And they shared some of their experiences. And out of that, they decided that they wanted to put together a committee and address why is it that we have so few persons of color on our elder board? And then what happened with this committee is that then they spent, I forget how many months, a lot of months working on this, and then they gave their findings. And you know, it’s kind of death in committee. They gave their findings, that was it, nothing happened. Every single member of that committee ended up leaving the church.   Julie Roys  06:22 And so, it kind of opened my eyes to how this is done. And it’s kind of a covert thing. And I had to say to Lainna, you know what? I’m sorry. I’m sorry that I didn’t see that. And I’m sure that hurt you. And that was wrong of me. And I also told her that you guys are different. And when you’ve had enough bad experiences with white people, it’s hard to say this group is different. But I said, one, this group knows about believing victims, about believing survivors, and believing their stories. And we also know that when you get up and you bleed, when you tell your story, we get the cost. It’s like re traumatizing. And if you’re going to do that, and nothing’s going to happen. It’s like it happened again. Right? And so, I know you guys, I believe in you guys, or I wouldn’t have asked my friend to come, who I care about deeply. And It’s my prayer that this will be a healing experience for all of us. But especially for persons of color who have been hurt profoundly in the church. Just to tell you a little bit about Lainna’s credentials. She’s a pediatrician, who completed her MD at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. She’s also a former homeschool mother, Master’s trained educator, a creative curriculum program called SCI Experience. And then she served on a whole bunch of different Christian organizations that we would recognize, although she said to make sure that I say she was the former, or formerly served on the Physician Resource Council at Focus on the Family. But I love Lainna dearly. And I’ll just warn you, she doesn’t mince words. I have no idea what she’s gonna say. Let’s welcome Lainna.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 08:38 Thanks, Julie, for your words, and your apology is very heartfelt. Thank you. One of the things you need to know that I’m just traumatized being in this space speaking to you. Okay? And I know that as we prayed for all of you this morning, how coming into a church space listening to some of the songs that we’re singing, how traumatizing that is to you. And I hold that in my heart and understand that pain. As I’ve walked through evangelical spaces there are many things that have been said to me. These are just a few in the fine collection of lines that have been delivered to me with good intentions. I don’t see color. You are so articulate. You’re playing the race card that I’m doing reverse discrimination and racism. Why can’t people get over talking about race? I don’t even care if you’re black, white, or purple. I’m not sure. Only purple people I’ve seen are dead. But one of my best friends is black. We live in a post racial world. We’ve had a black president, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan. My family did not own slaves, and All Lives Matter. So, these are a few things. These are just a few of the sophomoric, unhelpful, and lacking insight retorts that I’ve received from my white brothers and sisters in Christ when discussing race with them. I’ve questioned myself over and over again, why am I here today? Up to this morning. I really didn’t think I could be here. A few months ago, as Julie said, when she asked me to speak at the RESTORE conference, I have struggled and questioned my need and your need to hear me speak. I have not spoken in front of a large audience since 2019. I swore off speaking in front of white Christian-like audiences, like someone giving up chocolate for Lent. I have been successful up until today to keep that pledge.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 11:08 This is a bit of a public coming out for me. Authentically, being myself, you’re the first people to see this. In the words of Maya Angelou. I no longer are beholding to the white gaze. I must have sat down 1000 times to write some kind of speech for you. I’ve struggled to share intimate parts of me, potentially to an audience and community like those in the past that caused me so much pain. It was then I was a respectable model Negro who provided a limited colorism to their homogeneity, I allowed myself to be squashed and to be strategically unassuming, as I would not convey the angry black woman or intimidate the fragility of the individuals around race. Now, I do not have the motivation or desire to wrap up this in joining into a neat tidy package sprinkled with various Bible verses and then joining hands to sing a rendition of Kumbaya making all feel comfortable with my threatening presence as an educated black woman. I’m going to be completely honest with you; discussing racial trauma in white evangelical spaces to me, as Julie was talking about, is like slitting my wrists for white folks to see me bleed as a bizarre form of curiosity and entertainment, while giving them the power to determine if my blood is red, debate the merits of the tool of my infliction and determine the depth of my wound and the level of pain I may be experiencing. All of this is based on their intellectualized bystander observations and their limited personal experiences. I’m tired of being treated when I talk about race, racism, unfair, unjust practices, and white Christian spaces as not being a credible witness. Being divisive and unloving in some way, my race disqualifies me, because I have a conflicted interest in my blackness, and that only white folks have the power to be the judge in jury in such matters.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 13:37 Julie assured me that this audience would be different. I told Julie, there is a great difference between white folk who have been hurt by the church and by the figures in Christian organizations, than the pain of being black in overwhelming Christian space. There are many nuances. Yes, Julie, they feel pain, isolation, and loss. But here’s the key difference. You see, Julie, you all were part of the family. You and they belonged until you didn’t. Me, however, while I was never part of the family, I was allowed to be in those spaces, tolerated as long as I did not upset the fragile balance or to critique or speak of the lack of people of color, in leadership or in lowly position in that space. I was to be unseen and unheard, and I was allowed to enjoy the delicious morsels that fell from the table where no seat was available for me. I felt a little bit like Charlie Brown ready to kick a football, getting into position to swing my leg, and Lucy quickly going from holding the ball and snatching it away again, and my landing square into my backside. I am so tired of not being believed, watching white folks finding no compelling reason to address the issue, feeling like they will lose something or be subjugated to the evils in demonic treatments that blacks have experienced. As if those like myself want to pay back every horror on white bodies that have been inflicted on us. I’ve watched white folks actively and complicitly be antithetical to the Gospel, denying the Imago Dei in all people. I’m tired of racism being viewed by white folk as a political issue outside the realm of the gospel and being chastised that we are one human race in a story.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 16:04 I hear God whispering, do you love me? A piece of me dies a bit, and my heart hardens repetitively, telling the story even if later a person starts to believe perhaps my story might be slightly credible. I have paid the price over and over. I feel God holding my hand,  will you trust me? I’ll be rejected and dismissed once again God. You are my child and so are they. But they hurt me so much. Look at all that I have lost. I have been hurt and othered all my life in predominantly white spaces. I have lost so much. I do not believe racism will ever go away. It is deeply rooted into the fabric and foundations and the DNA of this country.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 17:04 God can I really love these people? Proximity and the hugging it out doesn’t work. I fought this issue in the world and within my own home. I had no reprieve. I’ve got you, fall back into my arms. I will bear this. God, it’s so hard. But you have sent friends who have done the same who are not the same pigmentation of me. And many of them are here in this audience. They have borne with me the pain and loss that I’ve endured over the last several years. They have shown up with meals, encouragement, and prayer, sat beside me and held my hand on some of the darkest nights. They have listened to my disappointment and even my anger. They have been the hands and feet of Christ. Yes, Lord, I can love them. Because as I look around this room, I see so many of my friends. Although the pain is still there, hope has not been extinguished. I trust you, God, please stay by my side and walk with me and protect me.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 18:30 So, with that, I’m going to tell you a little bit about my story. But I can say something I couldn’t even say 72 hours ago. I love you guys. I have been hurt, but I still have hope. And I want to tell a little bit you know in this time. I’m like, How can I tell a hard story like this in 40 minutes? So, I’m gonna share a little bit about my story. I think parts of it that are  pertinent to this particular audience and my titular brothers and sisters. Unlike most African Americans, I’ve never been in an all-black space. I’ve never been part of a black church. I’ve always lived in white communities. And no, I was not adopted. Okay. So, growing up in white spaces, I also have had and continue to have education, because I just seem not to get enough. Right now, I’m getting a fourth degree from Wheaton College in evangelism and leadership. I decided to go there to see what white people were learning. And I got that done and knew in two weeks what was happening but dang I signed up for a three-year degree. That wasn’t well thought out. In my 30 years of formal education, I’ve only had two black instructors. A total of 12 weeks of those 30 years. I’ve learned to study white people learning to code switch and adapt in order to assimilate and be unassuming. My success depended on knowing how to operate in spaces. Their success I’ve learned culturally in medical school. And there have been times in my life where I was on the brink of wanting to join the Black Panther group and forever being away from white people, not black people, because Lord knows I haven’t been around them. So, I had an amazing mentor by the name of Dr. J. Hirsch, in medical school, he was a traditional Jewish man, amazing man. Had an incredible command of an audience. So, he was a child psychiatrist. And he always did the greeting at UIC, where I went to medical school for the incoming medical first year class. And he had a way that he could capture an audience. And I would be sitting in the audience with over 400 of my colleagues, and make you feel like you were the only one in that auditorium. And I was like, I don’t know what that is, but I want that. And one day he was offering, understanding the family as a patient. Anytime you treat a patient, you’re treating the whole family. And so, I decided I need to go to that class for this mysterious man. And I got into his class, it was just a four-week class. And one day I was walking down the hallway, and I was at that time, engaged to my white husband at the time. So, no one knew about that. We kept it kind of secret  I hung out with many of the black students, he came up to me and asked me if I would allow him to be my mentor. I looked at him like, really? I’m  like, I’m gonna have to think about this. I said, give me some time to think about this, and I walked off. I’m glad to report that I did take him up on his offer. And it was the most amazing time. Actually, my second child is named after Dr. J. Hirsch. He became my academic father; he used his privilege to stand beside me. I didn’t come from a whole line of doctors. I do have a brother that’s a doctor. And that’s something my parents instilled in us. But it wasn’t my background. And there were many times I struggled during medical school where I was close to being kicked out of medical school for academic failure. And he never did my work. I didn’t even know how to write a letter on my behalf. He would make me I would write it, he would edit it, he would make me write it over and over again until I got it right. And at one point, it was so bad that anytime I was called into the dean’s office for academic struggling, he would come with me. Didn’t say a word. I remember one time we were in the elevator, the doors closed, and I was exhausted, I was done. I was like,  I can’t fight anymore. And I remember when the doors close, that man took his fist and slammed it against the elevator door and let out a swear word that they better not eff with me. And at that point, his anger overwhelmed me. He freaked me out, oh, like, Man, this guy’s crazy. He wants it worse than I do. And he stood by my side. And that brought me to the brink of  going to the dark side.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 23:40 I spoke nationally in homeschool conferences all over the country. And I have a publisher that is, just Google my name, you’ll find out who it is. Who I worked with, who has my books. And I thought we believed the same thing. I was walking in any of these really big conservative organizations, even though I wasn’t up front or seen, I believed in the vision and mission. And as I watched the things that my children went through, and I watched my boys who were cute little biracial boys grow up to start looking like men, watching that they suddenly became dangerous. And I watched how I was treated in the world. And about five or six years ago, I said something’s wrong. So, I began to start speaking out about the racism and exclusion of people of color in leadership and the messaging of predominantly national organizations, ones that may have centered on white families using stock photos of black people to colorize their messaging to give the illusion that they were interested in diversity. I think the last thing that brought me back besides my great family from Tov that Julie spoke of, I’m part of that group of our Tov family, was I was bewildered just like you were. And I was like, these people’s orthodoxy do not match their orthopraxy. And I kept talking out, and I found myself at a conference called liberating. And check this. I did not put this on Facebook, liberating evangelism. decentering whiteness, okay. It’s like, what the heck is decentering whiteness? I don’t even know what that means. And so, I went into this conference., and at the time, I was already being kind of, excuse the pun, blacklisted in the evangelical circles. And I went into this conference, and I knew that no one that I associated would ever find themselves there. So, I walked into the hotel conference room, peeked my head in there, and a third of the people were white. I think I gasped out loud. And I stepped back, and I looked at the sign on the door. Yep. Liberating evangelism. decentering whiteness, why are there white people here?   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 26:20 And it was bizarre to me. And because no one in my evangelical circles would have been caught dead there. And so, I was fascinated as I watched the pulpit be shared by people of color of various nationalities. Now, this is the first time I was at a conference that I didn’t see a white male be a keynote speaker. And what I saw from the indigenous to Latinos, and Asians and other people that did it, it had a different flavor. So I was out of my mind, like observing this really weird world. And I asked one of the white individuals, why are you here? And they looked at me like I was asking a trick question. And they’re like, What do you mean? I said, “Did you not read my lips? Let me try this again. Why are you here? And they said, because the Bible says we should love our brother. And I like, seriously? Do you really believe that? Like, yeah, what else would that mean? And it was that adventure that I went into. And as I started sharing my circles, no one in this circle that I was at, had any idea really of Focus on the Family, or any of these organizations I associated in the homeschool world. And I’m like, Don’t you know who they are? I was like, kind of proud., because I was name dropping all those people. They’re like, I don’t know who these people are. And I was like, really? Because they told me they’re the center of Christianity. But you guys say you’re Christians, but you don’t know those people? They're like, nope, no clue. And so, after I would introduce myself, people would look at me at the conference like, and when those ASPCA commercials, you know, with the little dog in the cage shaking, they would look at me like really pathetically like, Oh, bless her heart, look at her. And I didn’t understand it at the time. And so, after one of the meetings, I was sitting on the couch just bewildered because I had not the language to describe what I was experiencing in the white evangelical space. And, lo Behold, this is how God works, a white woman stood and sat beside me. I was in my thoughts. She put her hand on my shoulder, and she goes, I know from which you come. And it’s just like, God, you know, and I was like, Oh, my gosh. And she’s like, Oh, I know all the people you’re talking about. I’m like you do because I was feeling kind of crazy. Like they didn’t really exist. And she goes, Yes, I’m a homeschool mom. I’m from Florida but I live in Philadelphia. And I traveled here because my husband gave me this gift. And I have two little boys, the woman was white, and I vow that I won’t raise them in the stuff that I was raised in. I was like, wow, this is a whole new world. And she goes, Well, where are you staying tonight? I’m like, I don’t know, this hotel is kind of expensive. I’ll find somewhere else to stay. She’s like, why don’t you stay with me? I said seriously, in your hotel room? I’m like It’s been a while since I’ve been in college and stuff. But so, I said, Okay, this is crazy, but I’ll stay in your room.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 29:40 So over two nights, this white woman mentored me. She’s like, and she didn’t chastise me. She’s like, okay, Lainna, you need a little help here. So, get a notepad out. Okay. And she’s like, let me give you names of some podcasts and some authors. She’s giving me black authors and other things, all the stuff that was taboo, and evangelical will start discovering James Cohn. And I started discovering the real Malcolm X and the real Martin Luther King. I started reading all these things. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, I didn’t even know about James Baldwin. Nothing in my education had prepared me for this stuff. And she bandaged my wounds that night and brought me from the brink of hate. So, I share that, in that she was willing to step into space with me and walk with me.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 30:39 And my third story of where my friends have come, the last three years, I have had a new friend group. They don’t know they just laugh when I tell them where I’ve been. And these organizations that I have served, and they’re like, that doesn’t sound like the Lainna we know. Like, I know, I’m kind of a different person now. And the way that they’ve come beside me, and the love that I’ve been shown has been unprecedented. So, I can’t thank my friends enough. One of the things that has been really grounding into me is I had the opportunity to go to Ghana this summer. It was life changing, I will never be the same. I am so grounded now. I went on something called a Sankofa. It’s called and Sankofa is from the language A Twi from Ghana, and it means loosely, go back, and get it. And so the whole idea, and this is me sitting on underneath a Sankofa is the bird is facing forward, its neck is backwards. And as it’s going forward, it has the ability to look back. So, the idea is to retrieve things of value from knowledge of the past, you have to go back to move forward. And living in a country where they’re trying to ban all black history as if it’s alternative American history. I have grown up in a world that has told me my people were nothing; that we were savages until we had the unfortunate issue of slavery. And well, that was kind of a bummer. But now we’ve had the opportunity to be civilized. There is no history that we’ve done anything significant in this country or anything. So, I’ve always felt lost. I felt I couldn’t understand who I was. And so, when I went to Africa, I felt an incredible grounding, and a sense of pride. I couldn’t find it here. But I found it there. I learned about my ancestry, that I’m the descendant of kings and queens, where the European Christianity is not nearly as old as the African Christianity. So, I’m learning all these things I never had an opportunity, and it has been life changing. So, I went to for the first time in my life to be in a place where people look like me. Okay? I get lost in the crowd. I’ve never had that happen to me before. And so, we were able to be entertained by African chiefs. And actually, one of the chiefs reminded me of my father. I’ve never been in a group where I could actually see me, and I saw this man, and he resembles my father. Both my parents died of COVID, a couple of years ago, two weeks apart. And I’m going to tell you a little bit about that in a moment. But to see this man, I just welled up in tears and crying because I could see myself for the first time.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 34:08 So going to Ghana, I’d never seen all these billboards with black folk. Okay? I think I saw one billboard with one white person, but everything from their leaders to their celebration to everything else, I saw me. But the interesting thing in Ghana, there’s no such thing as a black person. And so that kind of understanding that their race is invisible, helped me to understand how white people see their race as being invisible. So, to be able to relish in the joys of being a part of a community where people looked at me, looked like me was incredible.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 34:50 I also had the opportunity to visit the Cape Coast and the Gold Coast. And I went into two castles that housed my ancestors when they were stolen raped and taken from their homes. And these castles are on the Cape Coast, Elmira and a Cape Coast Castle. And these were built in the 1400s. This one, particularly by the Portuguese was a trading post that later became a place for black cargo. So, to walk in these buildings and these castles to try to embody and feel the pain of my ancestors was overwhelming. And as I walked through one of the uncommon things that you wouldn’t imagine belief, do you guys know what that is? This is in the middle of one of the castles. It’s a church. There were churches where white people would come while the suffering and horror happened in the same space. And this was very formative to me. At one point, we were merged with a group of white tourists. And it was interesting to watch the white tourists posture. Believe it or not, our whole group from Wheaton College was black. I don’t know how that happened. But all of us were black that were on the trip. And we were merged with the white group. And as we walked solemnly through the sacred places, we watched our white brothers and sisters act like they were on a field trip. They would push to get in the front to get a better view. As they talked about the carnage that was happening in the space, I remember, we went up to the governors quarters. And they were telling us in the space that the governor’s quarters was, it would house up to nine people. That same space down below, would house over 300 of enslaved Africans in the space, without food, any kind of hygiene. Everything happened in that space. And what did my white brothers and sisters say, as they were in that space? They were looking out the windows and talking about what a beautiful view there was. So, at that point, I was like, I’m done. I can’t be around this. And I was sitting next to one of the cannons that protected the castle, kind of reflecting on it and someone kind of caught that picture of me at the time. This is one of the things on the castle. It reads an everlasting memory of the anguish of our ancestors. May those who died Rest in peace, May those who returned find their roots. May humanity never again perpetrate such injustice against humanity. We the living vow to uphold this. So, my whole talk is supposed to be about surviving and thriving. I know about surviving; I have been in survival mode for some time. I’ve had in the last four years I’ve had a total knee replacement as a former athlete along with many health challenges, I’ve ventured into spiritual wilderness teasing out the Jesus of the Bible, versus the twisted Jesus that had no concern for justice. Those who have been harmed in the church, who were unable to refuse to see the imago Dei and all people. I navigated racial unrest and the silence of my white Christian friends and my former circles, who always had something to say about black bleeding and dying bodies laying the street about their character and had nothing to say about the character of a yellow haired man with a bad comb over sitting in the Oval Office. I lost my 30-year marriage to a white man. I haven’t gone public. My divorce was finalized about six months ago. And had a lot to do with this issue. My family has been shattered. I’m watching the politicization of mass while millions die across the world from COVID. And those last being considered expendable. Watching my dad die over FaceTime, due to COVID and not being able to hold his hand or be present as he drew in his last breath,. No funeral and then there’d have to be my mom who died two weeks later. This is just a few of the things that I’ve had to survive over the last four years. I’ve survived a predominantly white churches where my pain and the pain of others who look like me were ignored so that my brighten brothers and sisters could remain comfortable without self-examination.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 39:49 I understand surviving. Surviving is remaining alive. Some days, that was all I could do. It’s continuing to exist after coming close to dying and being destroyed. surviving is holding up holding on and enduring when very little is left in your tank. I know all of you guys understand that. At times surviving is all that we can do. God carried and continues to carry me and you through this. God brought friends into my life who bandaged my wounds and lifted me up when I had no strength on my own.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 40:28 So, I want to get a little geeky, I want to show you something about healing. So, you know, I’m a doctor, and I kind of like that science thing and stuff. So, I’m going to talk about healing by secondary intention. So, this is like a medical picture. So, bear with me, maybe you can see the analogy here is, there are two ways of healing, there’s called first intention versus second intention. So, when a surgeon goes in to repair something, and they make that clean cut, after they repair it, they bring the edges nicely together and sew things up. That leaves a minimal scar. Okay? I feel like what we’re all going through is healing by second intention. And what that is, is when you have a gaping wound, and let’s say it’s been open for some time, or it gets pulled open several times. After about six to eight hours, for more as close to six, we as physicians can’t sew that wound up because of the concern of infection. So, you let that wound stay open. And with that open wound, you have to care for that wound. A lot of times we have antibiotics, and we’ll pack that antibiotic in that wound that the dressings have to get changed often. And as that wound is going through the healing, it actually heals from the bottom up, okay? From the inside, out. And I see us kind of like that secondary intention, as that wounding first we have to start that healing inside of us as we work it out. And then, of course, the scarring from second intention healing is much greater. There’s much scarring, but it’s been restored in a new way. And I feel that a lot of what we’re going through is similar to that secondary healing.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 42:21 So, we talked about surviving, what about thriving? I started looking through this whole idea, what does it mean to be thriving? Am I thriving? I do feel like I have a little more. The fact that I’m here is a big testimony that I’m starting to feel God’s healing presence, and it’s working. And thriving means growing and developing, having resilience. It means you’re comfortable with yourself, you’re able to take control of your physical, mental, and spiritual health. And there’s an increased optimism for the future. Ah, I think I’m starting to thrive. It’s not that the pain is not there. It’s not even that I believe that this world will ever get better. But I know as we walk and take our wounds, and we heal from them, the power that GOD can do with us through our thriving. So, we have a thriving we have flourishing. Like how is thriving and flourishing different? And Acts 2:42-47, If you read that when it talks about the hospitality, it’s a place of a joyous community, where there’s a festival friends. And there are five domains in flourishing; one, happiness and satisfaction that’s gonna look a little different for each of us. It is having the mental and physical health, having meaning and purpose in your life, and character and virtue. Now I know we’ve had a lot of character training in evangelical spaces. So, this will sound bizarre, but that character in virtue cannot be fully embodied unless you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Okay? And most churches and evangelical spaces talk about God, Jesus, and the Holy Bible, because Lord, we won’t get close to the Holy Spirit because that gets a little radical and out of control. And that doesn’t go in our 20-minute sermon series that we’re trying to do. Okay? So, in order to have good character and virtue it has to be nurtured through the Holy Spirit. And lastly, close relationships, close good social relationships. And finally, how do we get there? Okay. In 2019, as I was swearing off white evangelical spaces like chocolate I feel like God laid four words on my heart about this and it seems to apply to all these hard circumstances and prior speakers have spoke of this. So, the four words, the first one is lament. This is not feeling sorry, this is not God created you white. It’s a beautiful thing. No one’s asking you to be anything else than what you’ve been graded. But understanding that hearing these issues, no one wants pity. It’s a legitimate lament, it’s not a sadness. It’s not an Oh! that’s so sad. A lament is a deep longing in pain and sorrow for something. Unless you can lament, you can’t move forward. So, it is a spotty window that someone has talked about that embodying it.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 45:45 The second word he sent me was liberate. Oh my gosh, this seems out of touch. Because of all that stuff I hear an evangelical word about liberating means once Jesus comes, then we’ll be good. No, this means as soon as you see the problem, you have to liberate that issue. You don’t wait till Jesus comes. I lament, there’s a problem, it needs to be corrected now. I love how we like use time; I was told this at a prominent school, Christian school, you know, Lainna, you’re just trying to rush us too much. We’re just going to need a little more time to change hearts. Like seriously? Wait, your Bible says, When you see something wrong, you correct it. How does racism take time? So, you have to liberate.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 46:37 Third thing is to reclaim because Lord knows, you have to, like clean that space out. And you have to reclaim it for Christ because of the distortion and the evilness that’s been pervaded there, that space has to be reclaimed, or that mess comes back. And lastly, you have to reimagine. This is not a little tweaking of systems, you know, like finding a couple more chocolate chips to put into  your little organization to try to give the issue that you have reformed yourself. This is a whole reimagining. It’s a whole reimagining of systems and purposes of what you’ve done. You can’t tweak something that’s already distorted, tainted and evil. So, wow, I’m doing good, it’s only 49 seconds. Yes. Okay, so I didn’t think I could do this.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 47:40 So, I just want to leave you I have a little bit of I don’t know if you guys know this book, I didn’t write it. Darn! I wasn’t thinking – I should have brought my own books and should have been holding them up like this. But this is not one  I wrote. But it’s by Kate Bowler and it’s The Lives We Actually Have. And I thought something and it’s 100 blessings for imperfect days. And there was a perfect blessing that I want to leave with you. It’s called for when you’ve been hurt by the church. God saw me walk away. I had to, for what was supposed to have been a refuge, a community of hope and purpose, mutual encouragement, distorted all I understand you to be. Oh God, lead me to the heart of love so I might find the healing I need and protect the reverence I have for you. For you do not consume, but rather feed, you do not destroy but build up. You do not abandon your little ones but insist that they belong in your arms. Enfolded here, I see you now. The God who loves us to the end. For though I walked away, you didn’t. You found me and will lead me. Let’s now find the others. Thank you.   Julie Roys  49:17 Will again that’s Dr.Lainna Callentine speaking at RESTORE 2023 and Lainna, thank you so much for sacrificing yourself on our behalf to bring this message. And as you explained, there is no quick fix to racism. We need to lament deeply. We need to totally reimagine our systems and our purposes. And that’s something we’re committed to doing at The Roys Report. And I don’t know exactly what that entails, but I am confident that the Holy Spirit does. And we are committed to listening to the Spirit and to following the spirit. So please pray for us as we continue to take Lainna’s message to heart. And as we continue to discern how to practically walk out our conviction that every human being is a bearer of God’s image and worthy of equal respect and love. And I hope you’ll do the same. There’s so much to process in what Lainna said. But dealing with racism is not optional. Any more than following Christ command to love each other is optional. So, let’s commit to doing that together. And again, thank you so much for listening and supporting our podcasts and our mission here at The Roys Report. As I’ve noted before, we don’t have any big donors or advertisers, we simply have you, the people who care about abuse and corruption in the church and want to expose it. So, if you’re able, would you please consider giving a gift to support our ministry? And this month when you donate $30 or more, we’ll send you a copy of The Great DeChurching. This is a great resource exploring what’s causing the current exodus out of the church, and what can be done to stop the bleed. To donate and to get the book just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you’re blessed and encouraged.   Read more

The Iowa caucuses are now just three days away, which means the candidates are making their final pitches to a coveted group of voters: white evangelicals. Bob Vander Plaats is perhaps Iowa's most recognizable and influential evangelical leader and is often called a kingmaker in Iowa politics. Lisa Desjardins sat down with him in Des Moines to discuss the GOP race. PBS NewsHour is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders

The Iowa caucuses are now just three days away, which means the candidates are making their final pitches to a coveted group of voters: white evangelicals. Bob Vander Plaats is perhaps Iowa's most recognizable and influential evangelical leader and is often called a kingmaker in Iowa politics. Lisa Desjardins sat down with him in Des Moines to discuss the GOP race. PBS NewsHour is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders

Naomi Norton Ph.D, LCMFT, LMFT - White Evangelical Power and ControlDivorced: White Evangelical IdeologyNaomi Norton graduated from Northcentral University with her PhD in Family Therapy. Her dissertation focused on how the white fundamental evangelical culture makes meaning about mental illness. She has an active private practice, is an assistant professor at National University, and is a program supervisor at Friends University. She is passionate about exploring how culture shapes meaning, especially within religion, and how it affects interpersonal and systemic functioning. I became interested in chatting with Naomi when I learned about the White Fundamentalist Evangelical Power & Control Wheel (link below).FIND NAOMI:https://www.hopeforhealingllc.org/Facebook profile link: https://www.facebook.com/naomi.ruth.351 RESOURCES:Facebook link for journal article background:https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fnaomi.ruth.351%2Fposts%2F10167324543655389   Google Doc Link for PDF versions of the wheel graphics: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-E5MSPs_2D9vQLGB1rsm-JpfeRfkNaql Pre-print journal article with graphics: https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/c9x3t/?fbclid=IwAR1yFb41837jwQNVLN64a_tbtiOooIxoMMdovEeNjL7E9AyzO66tOH9RtkQ_aem_AWD0-EYtUfPvvpvflT3tVHIpLpi61vKEPDvAQKn1O2HBu5eQpc0B62rruYy40WMDykoSupport this podcast on Patreon (starting as low as $2/month) and get access to bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/janiceselbie Thanks to my newest patrons: Marie, Mary, and Peter. Every dollar helps.Subscribe to the audio-only version here: https://www.divorcing-religion.com/religious-trauma-podcastFollow Janice and the Conference on Religious Trauma on Social Media: Mastodon: JaniceSelbie@mas.toTwitter: https://twitter.com/divorcereligionTwitter: https://twitter.com/Wise_counsellorTwitter: https://twitter.com/ComeToCORTFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/DivorcingReligionTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@janiceselbieInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/wisecounsellor/The Divorcing Religion Podcast is for entertainment purposes only. If you need help with your mental health, please consult a qualified, secular, mental health clinician.Support the show

When journalist Tim Alberta attended his father's funeral, he expected people to speak words of comfort. What he didn't expect was a confrontation. And yet, just a short walk away from the casket, someone approached a grieving Alberta to critique his writing on Trumpism. On a new episode of The Russell Moore Show, Moore welcomes Alberta, a writer for The Atlantic and the author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism to discuss how American culture has reached the point where people feel compelled to argue politics at all times. Alberta and Moore talk about the ways that politics have invaded the church in recent years. He and Moore talk about what fear has done to the state of evangelicalism, the rise of secularism, and the differences in conversations between white and multiethnic congregations. They consider ways that demographics affect political and religious perspectives, how pastors have engaged QAnon, and the variances in generational perspectives on American politics. Tune in for a conversation that sheds light on America's history and ponders what its future could be. Resources mentioned in this episode include: The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism by Tim Alberta Blinded by Might: Can the Religious Right Save America? by Cal Thomas“ The Religious Right and the Abortion Myth” by Randall Balmer “Russell Moore Wants Us To Be Strange (But Not Crazy)” on the Good Faith podcast The “Against Trump” issue of National Review High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped and How We Get Out by Amanda Ripley Do you have a question for Russell Moore? Send it to questions@russellmoore.com. Click here for a trial membership at Christianity Today. “The Russell Moore Show” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producers: Erik Petrik, Russell Moore, and Mike Cosper Host: Russell Moore Producer: Ashley Hales Associate Producers: Abby Perry and McKenzie Hill Director of Operations for CT Media: Matt Stevens Audio engineering by Dan Phelps Video producer: Abby Egan Theme Song: “Dusty Delta Day” by Lennon Hutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Senate is relaxing its dress code so senators can wear hoodies and gym shorts, but senate staffers are still required to wear suits and ties. Is it a meaningless change or the sign of wider institutional decay? A new study finds 7 out of 10 pastors say their congregations are more fearful about the world and the future. Are they really being shaped by the gospel of Christ or by the fearmongers in the media? And researchers asked religious Americans, what's the bigger problem today—actual racism or false accusations of racism? The responses are telling. Then, author Philip Yancey is back for the 25th anniversary of his best-selling book, “What So Amazing About Grace?” He says our culture is even more divided and condemning than when he first wrote the book in the 1990s, and he examines why grace has fallen out of favor even among Christians and how to get it back. Holy Post Plus:  Getting Schooled - Christian Asks - How Can We Know an Unknowable God? https://www.patreon.com/posts/89886985 0:00 - Intro   1:31 - Show starts   2:05 - Theme Song   2:28 - Sponsor - Faithful Counseling Get 10% off your first month at www.faithfulcounseling.com/HOLYPOST 3:41 - Taylor Swift   6:34 - Dress Codes   15:44 - Growing fear in church congregations   36:20 - White Evangelicals claim racism is overblown 43:46 - Sponsor - Sundays Dog Food Get 35% off your first order of Sundays. Go to www.SundaysForDogs.com/HOLYPOST or use code HOLYPOST at checkout - Sponsor - Fast Growing Trees Get 15% off  your entire order when you go to www.fastgrowingtrees.com/HOLYPOST but only through October 15th   46:01 - Interview Intro Philip Yancey   48:07 - The original version of  “What's So Amazing About Grace”   53:29 - The need for grace   1:08:12 - Why social outcasts are often drawn to Jesus   1:15:27 - End Credits Links mentioned in news segment:   Skye's Twitter Rant - https://twitter.com/SkyeJethani/status/1704855253156610395?s=20   Nearly 70% of churchgoers have 'a growing sense of fear': Lifeway Research  https://www.christianpost.com/news/nearly-70-percent-of-churches-have-a-growing-sense-of-fear-lifeway.html   White Christians say too many see racism when it's not there, new poll finds https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2023/08/29/white-christians-pew-poll-racism/ Other resources: What's So Amazing About Grace? Revised and Updated by Philip Yancey https://amzn.to/3t6TIWK   Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/   Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus   Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost   Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.