Podcasts about i'm african american

Johnathan West is an African American from Nashville Tennessee that self-proclaims that he is from the suburbs. He didn't hunt, but after he and his wife tasted venison for the first time, his wife literally told him he needed to go hunting to bring home the proverbial bacon for the family. So he did, with us, and it was incredible. This is him explaining that process and event. See more: https://youtu.be/yQt0H2woEL4 Podcast is brought to you by: Dog and Gun Coffee: www.dogandguncoffee.com Pladra: www.pladra.com Civilware: www.civilware.com See more from Blood Origins: https://bit.ly/BloodOrigins_Subscribe

In this Best of edition of Dayton Youth Radio, we observe Black History Month with a story that originally aired in 2017. It's about the baggage that comes from going to private school, being middle class, well educated and a person of color. Transcript: Taylor Felder: My name is Taylor Felder. I'm 17 years old. I'm African-American, and I go to the Miami Valley School. I play soccer run track and I'm a part of my school's a capella group. Marc Williams: I'm Marc Williams. I'm 16 years old. I'm also African-American. I used to go to Rosa Parks Elementary School, which was a Dayton public school. I moved to Miami Valley after my fourth grade year because my parents wanted me at the school that challenged me more academically. TF: And we're here to talk about oreos. MW: Not a snack. TF: An oreo is a person who is Black on the outside, but acts white. Some examples would be the character Hillary from Fresh Prince of Bel Air. MW: Barack Obama, TF: Junior from Black-ish MW: It's like when

Sheneisha sits down and chats with Dr. Jacquelyn Malcolm, the CIO and VP of Enrollment, Marketing & Communications at Buffalo State College, about the non-traditional route she took to get to where she is and a whole lot more. Remember, you don't have to take the cookie-cutter format or strategy that is laid out before you. You can navigate and go into different realms!Connect with Dr. Malcolm on LinkedIn!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTSheneisha: "Success is liking yourself, liking what you do and liking how you do it." - Maya Angelou. What's up, Living Corporate? It's Sheneisha, and today we'll be discussing the rise of success for black and brown women. Our guest today, with nearly 20 years of distinctive higher education experience to Buffalo State, including her previous role as associate vice president and chief marketing officer at Catholic University in DC. Our guest has held leadership roles in marketing and communications, as well as extensive experience supporting enrollment management and technology efforts at multiple institutions. Our guest was the executive director of marketing and communications at Delaware State University, where she also worked as the executive director of integrated marketing. Before returning to Delaware State in 2015, she worked at the University of the District of Columbia for seven years, where she served as an executive director of interactive media and Portal administrator, executive director of alumni relations, and assistant vice president for marketing and communications and alumni relations. Prior to joining the University of the District of Columbia, our guest worked at the University of Delaware as an assistant director of alumni relations and at The George Washington University as [?]. She earned her B.S. in business administration from Drexel University and an M.S. in project management from The George Washington University and completed her doctorate of education and educational leadership from Delaware State University. Let's welcome our guest chief information officer and vice president for enrollment, marketing, and communications at Buffalo State, Dr. Jacquelyn Malcolm.Jackie: Hello, everyone.Sheneisha: Yes, yes. Dr. [laughs] Dr. Malcolm, welcome to the show. How are you?Jackie: I am well. I'm well, thank you. How about yourself?Sheneisha: I am well. It's so great to have you here with us today. So we gave this elaborate and most beautiful intro. You have accomplished so much. What else would you like the Living Corporate family to know about you? Jackie: Wow. You know, I pride myself in being an African-American female from a relatively small town in Delaware and I sort of grew myself into this career and took a non-traditional path, and just certainly want to let your viewers know that it's okay to take non-traditional paths. Quite frankly that is one of the reasons that I'm able to do so many things is because I did take a non-traditional path. Sheneisha: Yes, yes. I definitely saw that and read that within your bio, and it was quite intriguing. Quite intruiging. I'm so glad you're here to share that with us today, and I'm sure our listeners are going to be elated to hear your non-traditional role and your path. So let's get into that. So what was your path to becoming the chief information officer at Buffalo State? And what does that role consist of?Jackie: Sure. I actually started out as a fashion design major at Drexel, and Drexel is an institution that affords their students cooperative education. So you get to get yourself a job and experience prior to even graduating from college, and through that process I found that I wasn't getting the jobs that I wanted to get and wound up actually working for a company now called GlaxoSmithKline, but which was SmithKline Beecham at the time, and I worked in their convention planning department. So I was the person who helped them get prepared to go to their conferences and things like that, and I absolutely fell in love with the field of marketing. So I came back after that experience at Drexel and changed my major and went on to--I actually started out as a work study student in the financial aid office at Drexel as well, and that's sort of where my career in higher ed started. And then after I left Drexel and made the decision to go straight into my graduate degree, and that was at George Washington, and I was so incredibly glad that I was able to do that and was afforded the opportunity. So that's where I really worked hard. I got my master's in project management and after that moved on to a company in Wisconsin to be a marketing coordinator. So that was really where I got the start of my marketing experience. And I didn't sort of like corporate America too much. You know, it didn't sit as well as higher ed did with me, and so I moved back to Washington, D.C., which is where I gained some more experience at GW working in the alumni relations office in the law school. And I really enjoyed that experience. I loved higher ed. I loved being around students. I really loved just having the opportunity to be around education all of the time and loved that experience, and I went on to do other things in higher ed, as you stated, and, you know, several positions within marketing. And then when I was at the University of the District of Columbia, I went on to--I was marketing a new Portal product, and it was sort of that centralized place where all of our students would register, they'd get their news, their announcements, all of that good stuff. So I was mainly the marketing person, but as a marketing person I tend to really immerse myself in the technology, in the solution, and so I did all of the training and I did all of that, and I had a conversation with the project manager at the time, and I said, "I know part of the work of implementing this solution is hiring a Portal administrator. Can I have a conversation with that person?" And he said, "Well, actually we don't have that person yet." And I said, "Oh, you don't?" And I said, "Well, how can I be helpful?" And he said, "Well, you know, you're a marketing person. You can take on managing the functional side." So I went back to my supervisor, and--you know, I'm a long-term marketing professional at that point, and I said, "Technological solution? Me? I don't know if I can do that. I don't know if that's my strength," and I really pushed myself, and I trained, and I worked really, really hard, and it was a case of having really, really good people around me who were willing to help me learn. And so did that for a few years and marketing, you know, for the Portal. I did technological communications as well. So I had such great experience and really pushed myself out of my comfort zone. And went on--the institution where I was went through a lot of layoffs, and there wasn't a lot of staff, and I was having some trouble getting some of the things that I needed to manage the product, and so I sat down with somebody, and he said, "I'm gonna show you how to do the technical side of this," and I said, "Wait a minute." You know, I took on the functional side. I don't know if I can take on the technical side. And I'm saying "This is a lot," you know? But I said why not? What do I have to lose? I can either not get the experience and continue on my path or I can get some really great technological experience, and that's what I did. I wound up being both the functional and technical administrator for this Portal product. So I would up being a system administrator, right? So here I go, this sort of, you know, self-made marketing person in higher ed, and I'm now doing this technical stuff, which I found I absolutely loved. And so taking that chance and really pushing myself out of my comfort zone and really wanting to grow my professional skill set really helped me get the position where I am now as chief information officer and vice president for enrollment, marketing, and communications at Buffalo State. And I never forget the day I saw the job on Inside Higher Ed. I called up a friend and I said, "There's this job, and it's just so eclectic, and it matches my eclectic background," and she said to me, "So what do you have to lose? Go apply for the job," and I said "What do you mean?" And she said "Well, just go apply for it." And so I did, went through the interview process, and got the job, and I never in a million years ever thought that I would have a leadership role in all of these areas. And speaking to my president about sort of this level of innovation that she had to even fashion this role, and she said "All of it intersects," right? Enrollment, marketing, communications, and the systems that support everything that we do day to day, it all intersects, and so it makes so much sense. And as I do my work now and I help my staff understand why we were all put together in the way which we are, it makes so much sense, and they're learning things about processes and things that they would have never had the opportunity to have that much insight into without this role being fashioned the way it was. And so, you know, my career has been set upon sort of taking chances on myself and educating myself. I consider myself to be a life-long learner, and that's really important to me. I don't ever want to consider myself to be the complete expert in anything, because, you know, the fields that I oversee are ever-changing anyway, and so I can never be in a position just to say "Well, I got this degree," or "I got this job and now I'm all set." And I will continue to push myself. Even though I do have my doctorate, I continue to do leadership academies and to hone my skills, and I just completed a CIO leadership academy. And so there I think it's really, really important to ensure that you understand that there never really is an endpoint to learning and educating yourself.Sheneisha: There isn't, there isn't. A life-long student. I really like that. A life-long learner. That is great. So what does your role consist of, being the chief information officer? Like, what is it? What do you do for those who may not know?Jackie: So as chief information officer--so sort of that third, if you will, of my position encompasses overseeing the institution's entirety as it relates to information technology. So my spam includes areas in instructional design, technology support services. So that's our help desk. It is our computer help, who goes around campus and supports our constituents, and it's also managing all of the network infrastructure and architecture that all of our systems sit within, as well as enterprise data and analytics, which is all of our sort of major systems, and institutional research as well. So I really can flux between "Hey, we're thinking about some sort of security measure for the network," to "We need to pull this data," to "We're implementing a new CRM system." And so it really runs the gamut. The beauty of my job, because I sort of have these buckets that I oversee, is that they all intersect, so I could spend one or two days a week really focused on IT and, you know, another day on enrollment, and two more days on marketing and communication. So it really just runs the gamut, you know? That's another reason why I love my job and the way it's fashioned. No two days are alike truly, and it really allows me to stay on top of my game, because I am literally hopping from initiative to initiative, and my team, including students, is about 275 people, so I'm [in] one of the largest areas within the institution. So one thing I will say that through--as I've grown through my career, the leadership component is so incredibly important, and to learn how to, you know, talk with IT folks and give them the leadership and the professional development that they need, but then turning and switching gears to really supporting my marketing and communications folks or my enrollment folks. And so it's really an interesting dynamic when, you know, each of those groups speak differently from a leadership perspective, and so I have to be able to maneuver myself to be in this position to support them as they need as well.Sheneisha: Wow. This role is, like you said, multi-faceted. There's so many different things that you can do, and like you said, no day is alike. That's--I mean, you're always staying interested and definitely loving what you're doing.Jackie: Right, absolutely. I absolutely love what I do, and I will say that having strong--reporting to strong leadership is really important too, you know? I know a lot of the folks listening to this also know how important it is to have a really great boss that supports you. I have run the gamut. I've had some doozies, but I've also had some really great leaders, you know? Where I first truly learned leadership was from a supervisor that I had at GW law school, and he was a retired Navy judge [?] general. We really clicked 'cause I'm a military brat, and, you know, he came--I was literally 22. I didn't know anything from anything, and he put so much trust in me, and every day he came to my office and he said, "Is there anything I can do to support you?" And that really stuck with me about how you truly treat people when you're leading teams, and it's so important to know that people are coming with multiple things. They're coming with their life issues, and they're coming with stressors and pressures from work, and how do you work alongside that to create success, not only for them, but for the organization or institution that you're working for? And so that's sort of where I really understood the importance of good leadership and sort of, for me, the innate desire to truly ensure that I'm consistently learning how to be a good leader. And I look at it - how would I want someone to lead myself, right? And I would want transparency and compassion and communication and support and professional development. I would want all of those things. So I try to really truly lead by example and not just talk the talk but really walk the walk.Sheneisha: That is some very good information. I think is extremely important to have great leadership. The fact that the gentleman trusted you and supported you, those are some great key elements in helping you and your development as well. And I know that you mentioned that you continuously take part in leadership academies. So with you taking part in those leadership academies, is that something you search--clearly you must search for it on a regular. Are you leading any of those academies? Do you like to actively participate? How frequently?Jackie: So I actively participate in leadership academies. I also do a lot of panel discussions. As a minority, as a female, especially in the world of tech, we are few, far and in-between, and so I feel sort of it is my life's work to really allow other minorities, black or brown, right, to be able to see themselves in these roles. And then, you know, I do a lot of work alongside really talking to women specifically and helping them understand that while we want to advocate for ourselves in this field, we can't do it alone, without our male counterparts and supporters. Because a lot of times I think sometimes, you know, women-led initiatives are like "Oh, we're females, and that's just the way this goes, and we don't want any males around us. We're doing this on our own." And I'm all for women's empowerment, but I think you also have to see the value in understanding and making sure that you get the support from others around you. And so for me it really is sort of that, my own professional development and growth from a leadership perspective but also showing others what it means to be a female in tech, and I have frequently been the only African-American in the room, frequently the only African-American female in the room, and so some folks say "How does that make you feel?" And it sort of empowers me, right? And I think it allows me to show others that, you know, we can be at the table, and we can be just as qualified and educated as the next person around that table, and so I always say use that to your advantage. You know, people say, "Well, you know, they're just picking me because I'm African-American." If that gives you a unique experience to learn, take that experience. That's not a bad thing. But then how do you then advocate for other minorities to be in the room with you, right? So that way you're not the only one, but then you can give that experience to others, and that's also really important as well. I've been, you know, a benefactor of other minority leaders saying "We want her to be at the table. We want her to be a part of the discussion because she creates a level of diversity in the discussion," and so I think it's always important to remember that it's not only about you elevating yourself, but it's making sure that when you're able you're elevating others as well.Sheneisha: That is so powerful in itself. I think it's super important, especially as not only women but people of color, that we are able to get to a place where we can reach back and pull one up, or pull several up. Definitely we're always in a place, like you said, where we may be the only one in the room. We may be hired for that reason. But like you said, use that to your advantage, and clearly you possess something unique, so why not leverage it? Why not level up on it and make sure that when you do get there you're not just there? [laughs] If you're gonna be there, be there and make sure that they know that you're there. [laughs]Jackie: That's a thing. That's why it's so important for me too, you know, when I'm asked to speak at different events and really be a representative, you know? Both because of the fact that I'm female and the fact that I'm African-American, you know, I use that to the advantage of saying "Yes, I want others that look like me in the room," and "You can be there, and you deserve to be there, and you've earned the right to be in that room," and, you know, when working with students that's really important for me, you know, as we have our female students who, you know, need our knowledge and our support and our network and, you know, I always--at the events that I speak, especially the ones that are free, I send them out to our students. Come, whether you're male or female. Come. You know, participate, network. Let me introduce you to some folks that I know so you can build your network. And I [?] that in my example they would know to be able to do the same as well, right? And it's really important for our students to be able to see that now. And I also hope that I can show how you come to the table ready to go and to be taken seriously, you know? There's a time and a place to be, you know, individualistic and be who you are, and I'm certainly not saying to cover up who you are, but you gotta know there's a time and a place for everything, you know? I also am--you know, I'm an African-American female, you know, and I wear a mohawk. You know, my head is shaved, and so I've had my angst and anxiety about walking into a conservative environment, and I say "You know what? This is who I am," and it makes me no less worthy of partaking in the conversation, and it certainly doesn't make my work any worse for wear, right? And if anything, it allows me to stretch my limits and be creative and to show people that my creativity doesn't then diminish my professionalism, and I like to be able to show the students that as well, that you can have an air of individualism, but just know your environment, right? Know what's gonna be receptive. And it's unfortunate that we still live in that space where we just kind of have to be a little bit more concerned about who we are as individuals regardless of race, you know? But I think it's really important to know the time and the place and the space, you know? And it's that just our reality, you know? It's not, you know, neither a good or a bad thing. It is just a thing, right, that we just have to respond to, so. Sheneisha: Absolutely. Being unapologetically black. Unapologetically you. [laughs]Jackie: Right? You know, I walk in a room and, yes, I'm African-American, yes, I shave my head, and I'm ready to go. Let's have this conversation.Sheneisha: I love it. [laughs] I love it.Jackie: Yeah. It's interesting too that there are times when I've--like I said, I've been really concerned, like, "Oh, they're gonna think I'm a rebel, a renegade," you know? 'Cause I shave my head, and I said "You know what? Then that's your loss," right? That's your loss for not wanting to have me at the table because of something that you're not okay with, Because I'm okay with it, right? And so to, like you said, really be unapologetically black, female, I also tell my students too when, you know, you're in a position of interviewing for a job and getting a job offer, negotiate. Know your value. Know your worth, right? Don't just take whatever somebody gives you. If you feel that that person's offering you $50,000 and you're bringing $75,000, tell 'em why, you know? The only thing they're gonna do is tell you no or "We don't have that level of budget." You have to understand if you're willing to take that intentional risk, right? Because it's that too. And that's something that--those are two words that, you know, my current president said. She said "We are in times now where you have to understand when you take intentional risk," right? You can't always be the one to say "Well, I'm not gonna take that risk," or "I'm not gonna put myself out there." My whole career and professional journey has been really predicated on taking intentional risk. I'd never be in IT if I didn't, and also understanding and knowing when you take that risk, and sometimes you take that risk without compensation for future gain. That's also important too. Because I think we're all focused on "Well, you're not gonna get that out of me if you don't give me money for that." And I'm not saying give up everything for free. I'm saying, again, be intentional about where you want to take that risk for future gain.Sheneisha: Speaking about taking that risk and being intentional, I notice--okay, so in higher education there's often a level of classism, right? So how did you navigate having a non-traditional background and getting into this space as a black woman? Of course taking that risk, but how were you able to navigate that to get here?Jackie: Yes. You know, I will definitely say, you know, higher ed is an interesting environment because we're based on credentials, right? And so I would say that to be successful in this environment, you're gonna absolutely have to come with your credentials, you know? I made the decision very early on in my career, you know? By the time I was 22 I had both my bachelor's and my master's degrees. I wanted to make sure I at least had the credentials in place to be able to garner some long-term benefits from that, you know? I had about a 20-year break between my master's and my doctorate, and in the field in which I'm in, you know, even though I'm in academia and I'm not on the academic affairs side--so the faculty side, the [?] side, for me getting my doctorate was more of a personal piece, because it wasn't necessarily something I absolutely needed to progress in my field in higher ed. But I did know that if I wanted a leadership role, that was gonna be key for me. It was fine if I was gonna be executive director, but once you start reaching into the vice presidential realm, especially in higher ed, you're gonna need to have your credentials, right? So I knew me having my doctorate was gonna be very, very important, and I will say, to anyone listening, it's gonna be acutely important to know your space, right? That's important for higher ed. It may not be important, you know, if you're in a different type of space, right? And so that's really, really important, and know where you want to go long-term as well. And you may say "Well, I don't really need that right now." Maybe not right now, but will you in the future? And what does it open up to you as far as options go? I'm all about options. I don't want to ever stymie myself into only being able to be in certian fields because I've only done but so much. So again, in higher ed, that's what we're about, right? We're about those educational credentials. And I always say to folks too, you know, maybe you don't want your doctorate, but maybe you're doing micro-credentialing. Maybe if you have your bachelor's you're looking into, you know, stackable certificates to get you to a master's, right? And so there are options out there. So, you know, know what those options are and how they could potentially be beneficial. You know, it's different in the K-12 environment, where you get additional dollars for every degree or certain number of credits that you get. That's not the way it works once you get into the higher ed realm. But while it doesn't necessarily make an immediate return in a certain position, it did for me long-term because I knew I wanted to go on to be a vice president, and ultimately my goal is to be the president of an institution. A beautiful thing for me is that right now my president at Buffalo State is an African-American female. I can't tell you how encouraging that is. She is absolutely one of the most amazing African-American female leaders I've ever encountered. We call her our sage. She is very calm. She's very thoughtful. She's very methodical. She's experienced. She's a psychologist by trade. She really has a lot of markers for a great leader, and she is, and she allows us, as myself and my colleagues on the cabinet, to be ourselves and to do our jobs, and I have never been at an institution where I have been truly winning with my colleagues and my president.Sheneisha: That's major.Jackie: Yeah, it makes a huge, huge difference in your productivity, in your desire to learn and your desire to lead your team, especially when you're dealing with a challenging environment. You know, the space of higher ed right now is tumultuous in a lot of the geographic areas within the U.S. I'm sitting smack dab right in one of them. You know, enrollments are set to continue to decrease, and so now, you know, I'm dealing with an environment of how do I remain creative and encouraged and being really a transformational leader for my team in this type of environment, you know, where my colleagues in other areas of the U.S. are doing extremely well in regards to enrollment. So understanding and knowing where you can have your wins and doing the best that you can do to remain status quo where there really isn't a lot of room for growth. So you really need the backing of good leadership to support that environment. Sheneisha: And you definitely had that, from fashion to where you are now, CIO and VP. That's a major--that's a complete different, or non-traditional, route to get to where you are. And let this be--Living Corporate family, let this be encouragement to you. You don't have to take the cookie-cutter format or strategy that is laid out before you. You can navigate and go into different realms. And Dr. Malcolm, I want to say--you mentioned about being a transformational leader and about transformation. I want to ask, what are your thoughts of higher education transforming or evolving into being more corporate-like or becoming more similar to corporate?Jackie: That's a great point to make, because higher ed traditionally has been "We're not corporate America." You know, most of us, we're non-profit, right? So there's that. We're non-profit. I mean, we don't need to function like a corporation. At the end of the day, we still have to keep the lights on, right? We still have to make enough money to do our business, and so I always say to folks that while we're not traditional corporate America, we still need to function like a business, and quite frankly there are pieces we can learn from the way in which corporations run and create success for themselves, right? And so while we're not here making, you know, millions and billions of dollars in revenue and growing services and products, per se, we still have to be better, right? We do perform a service. We educate. And so in order for us to be the greatest at educating our students, we need to be looking at our top-notch programs, and we need to be ensuring that we're offering the programs that students are looking for. You know, sort of the elitist sort of way in which higher ed has traditionally been able to move really no longer exists. Students have options. They have modality options. They have private public options as well. They have HBCUs options. They have faith-based options. And so far gone are the days where, you know, 200 years ago where it was like, "Come and we will educate you, and you should be proud that we are educating you." Students have options, you know? I always say, as I put my marketing hat on, "Students are consumers," and their parents and their families are consumers, and they're gonna be making one of the most expensive life investments they will ever make outside of purchasing a home.Sheneisha: Yes, you will. Oh, yes. [laughs] Jackie: And so the fact that, you know, we can't be pretentious in this space, you know? We need to meet students and their families where they are, and we need to make sure that we're hearing and we're listening to them and giving them the best level of teaching and learning we possibly can, and that indcludes goo dcustomer service, which a lot of times some of us in higher ed have really struggled being a good partner to students and their families, you know? And customer service is huge, and I always say, you know, it's no different if you walk into a car dealership, right, and you walk in for service. You want somebody to pay attention to you. You want somebody to give you a good experience, you know? You make that investment. YOu want somebody to return that experience back to you in good customer service. It's no different for students and their families, and it's really important for us to remember that's the space we're in. Again, we're no longer able to be in an environment where we have an elitist approach. We're all, you know, trying to go after similar students, right? You know, strongly academic and, you know, passionate about getting a degree in higher ed, and, you know, at Buffalo State, a large part of our population is first-time college goers, right? So they're called first-gen, of which I am. And, you know, they're navigating waters that their families have never navigated before, right? I remember going to Drexel, I didn't know anything about financial aid and where I got my meal plan or how I was gonna get my books. I didn't know any of that. And so how do we become good partners to these students and families to ensure that we are saying "We know you don't know, but we're here to help you. We're here to help you have that positive experience. Here's how you do some of these things." And I live in this world, and I love--this is why I love working at Buffalo State, because I can see myself in those students. I was that 17-year-old who didn't know anything about anything, you know? And I needed good people around me to support me and to help me into my college transition, and I just distinctly remember those moments of doubt and--you know, because sometimes what we think is success is "Well, I'm on campus. I got here. I got into college. I made it," right? And that is a level of success, absolutely, especially for a lot of our students. That is a big deal, but we want to be able to take them all the way to graduation, 'cause that's really the ultimate of what we're trying to help them achieve. And so again, I see myself in them. I see the need to support. You know, when I see a student, who, you know, "I just need to talk to someone because I don't understand," I say "Come into my office and let's talk. Let's sit and let's talk and help you in your own unique decision and space," you know? And that's what we know, that we no longer can look at a student solely from the academic side. They're a whole person, right? You know, students are coming in, and not just at Buff State, but overall students are coming in with, you know, autism and depression and anxiety, and quite frankly a lot of things that I think a lot of us didn't come into school with, and so we need to really understand that and what it truly means to support them as a student as a whole.Sheneisha: That makes a heavy impact, when you have someone that's there to just speak to, to listen to you, to help guide you along the way--mentorship, and I can definitely relate. Going to pharmacy school, it was hard. First-generation. I'm like "Okay..." I come from a single-parent home. My sister is looking at me, you know? I'm an example. My mother is in support, okay? So what do I need to do to make sure that I make it to graduation? Who around campus? Because I remember being at FAMU, and the phrase was "It's not what you know but who you know." [laughs] So being able to know someone to get into pharmacy school was major, but, you know, having those people along the way to help me get there, it showed the camaraderie and what we call the FAMUly that was built there to help get me to that place. Look, we need a Dr. Malcolm at EVERY campus. [laughs] At every campus, from small-town universities, college town, community college or whatever, we need you eveywhere. Jackie: Absolutely. And that's key, you know? And like I said, it's so important to really build that network, and that's why I always say to the students "You need to come to this event. So-and-so is gonna be here. You need to see this person and talk to them." You know, it's interesting. I have a deputy CIO who works very closely with me at Buffalo State. He met this gentleman who said "I really need a summer job," and he was really struggling. I had just come from a meeting a few weeks prior with CIOs in the local area who were saying their jobs were going without any applicants. No applicants, right? And we had talked about internship programs, and I said to my deputy CIO--'cause he was talking to the young man--"Why don't you put him in touch with their program?" It was a major health provider, and I know their CIO, and I said "Now, look, you're gonna have to go in. You're gonna have to interview." Like, "I can't do that part for you, but I can get you there. I can lead you there." And he did great. He got an internship. He came back to our office and he said, "Thank you so much," and he said "I am getting experience I never thought that I would ever get in college." And [it was?] a company who has hired our students out of their internships, and I'm hopeful. He is a computer information science major. Smart, ready, passionate, eager. And I followed up a little bit later with the CIO, and they were like "He's doing great," you know? And so again, to your point, you gotta know your connections. You know, other cultures do this very, very well, and we can do it well too, you know? And, you know, this case of, you know, you need to go to that event with your mom. You need to go to this event with Professor So-and-so, 'cause you never know who you're going to meet. And tehre are times when--I get it. You're tired and you're exhausted and you've had a long day, and now somebody's asking you to come to some event, you know? And you're like "Ugh," but then you get there and you say to yourself, "Oh, my goodness. If I had not come to this event, I would have not gotten this level of networking." And so you gotta also be ready and be open and push through being tired and push through being exhausted and push through when you're like "I gotta finish this exam." Yes, you do. And where you can, do your networking. You're not gonna be able to do everything, but allow yourself to create opportunities for yourself, right? So this is exciting work for me. I love what I do every day. This is, I will say, my first job where I come into work every day and I absolutely love what I do. I am supported. I get to do the work I want to do. I get to support students. You know, what we do in higher ed--this is a life-changing type of experience, and, you know, I want to see these students graduate in four years and come out and say "I work at So-and-so," or "I do this," but ultimately I hope that you also say you take the opportunity to give back, right? And as we all have been led and supported by others, I would hope that they do the same.Sheneisha: Speaking about giving back, what--so you've achieved very much success during your career. What steps have you taken to develop yourself, and what does that strategy look like for black and brown women? Like, what would you give back to the black and brown women who are looking to reach this level of success?Jackie: I would definitely say any time there's an opportunity for--you know, like I said, professional development, leadership--in higher ed there is an organization called ACE, and I did their ACE Women in Leadership session, and it was a 3-day session, and it was wonderful, and it was a diverse population of folks, but there were African-American female presidents there. There was just so much diversity in the room, and it was like--they say, you know, "Be a sponge," and it was just, like, asking them every question you could ask them, things like that. Any opportunity that you get to be in a leadership or professional development opportunity, any opportunity that they're doing women in leadership events. I would also say being a part of boards, right, organizational boards. It's really, really important. And I would stress doing it in your field and outside of your field as well. I got tabbed into being on an aerospace board because they wanted diversity and they wanted my marketing skill set, you know? And so, you know, again, stretching yourself outside of, you know, the normal sort of types of activities that yo uwould do as they are related to your discipline. Push yourself outside of that, because the level of networking and experience that you too will get from that is huge, right? And I've had to learn that. And at first I was like, "Why would I want to do that?" And then it was like, "Well, hold on a second. That puts me in a whole different realm." And the level of folks that I meet and get to network with are completely different than those folks that I would typically run into in my higher ed space or in my ed tech space or in the marketing space, right? And so I would say making sure that you're looking at your professional organizations as well. So anything that's related to your particular discipline, but also, like I said, being on boards that really kind of are stretches. And I think a lot of times as women and women of color, we're not taught to stretch ourselves. I'm not sure if it's a cultural piece. We're taught to certainly obtain and learn and, you know, get the degree and get the great job, but I'm not sure how well we're taught to be risk takers, right? And that's something that I stress a lot too with students, that--I mean, certainly if you're risk averse and you want to stay in your space that makes you comfortable, that's okay too, but that's sometimes how opportunities get missed, right? Apply for that job. You know, it's funny. I was speaking to a young lady about a position, and I said "Well, why don't you look at this?" And she said "Well, I don't have all the pieces. I don't have the experience in every area." And I said "That's okay, you have the capacity though," to do that, and I said "We as women are never taught that you don't have to have every single piece." If that job description--if you're missing one thing, then you know what? Own it and say, "You know what? No, I don't have that, but I have the capacity to learn that, and I'm perfectly okay with taking this on," and with the right professional development and the right leadership support I can do that," right? And so again, it's sort of always keeping ourselves safe. You know, our male counterparts do this all the time. They go in, they apply for things they may not even be qualified to do, but goodness, in the off-chance that you are able to get that job or get that experience, that just makes you a better person. It makes you a better leader. It makes you a better professional as well. And that's that life-long learner piece, right? "Okay, so you're gonna learn something different." I mean, I had never walked into a network room before I worked at UDC. I walked in there and I said, "What in the world have I gotten myself into?" [both laugh] I said, "But what does this mean? What does that mean? What are you doing there? What are you wiring? What is the network switch? Where's the network closet?" And you start getting into these conversations with these folks and you're like, "Wow, this is really interesting. I want to know more." And to be able to push myself to broaden my comfort zone at that point, right? So it's like you step out but you broaden it. Sheneisha: You don't settle for safe. You do not settle for safe. You definitely have to branch out and go beyond yourself, because you never know how far you can go until you stretch yourself. Jackie: The worst thing somebody can tell you is no. Well, goodness. And that's okay, and if no is the answer, move onto the next thing. Don't lament over that person saying no, because if it's no, then that wasn't meant to be a part of your journey, right? Your journey is meant to take a different path, and that's okay. And sometimes we also get really discouraged, right? So own those feelings and emotions and say "Gosh, I really wanted that," and let that be the energy you need to empower yourself to either go get that level of experience or manuever in a different direction, but don't lament in that space, right? Just say "Okay, it wasn't meant for me, and I'm gonna move on."Sheneisha: That is great. Because it's not like you've never heard no before, you know? If you hear it, it's okay. Just keep going. They're not gonna stop you.Jackie: Right, exactly.Sheneisha: You know, you've done so much, and you have empowered many, many women I am sure, myself right now being included. [laughs] Now, what has been your experience as a black woman in leadership?Jackie: Hm. Wow, you know... that's a heavy question. You know, I think, for me, I've experienced leadership in minority-serving environments as well as majority-serving environments, and I have found that I have been questioned a lot about my level of expertise, my value, what I bring to the table, and what I have found, the only way you can combat that is to just continue to do good work, right? Be confident, because the minute you question yourself is the minute that you're not focusing on doing all of that great work. You're focused on making that person happy. You're focused on making that person see your worth and your value. And I'll give you an example. I had a situation where I came into this field and several people were doubting my technological expertise, and they said "Well, you don't have a degree in it, and you don't have that many years of experience. You're not a technician." I said "Well, I am, because I've been a system administrator before and I've worked in IT for a number of years." But I feel that, due in part to them not finding value in me, they questioned my skill and expertise, and in response to that I had somebody say to me "Well, why don't you kind of do a round table and talk to them about your experience?" And I said "Well, why would I do that?" "So they can feel better about you." "I'm okay with me." I said, "I can't help them be better with how they feel about me. I know the value that I bring. I am here. I was their choice to bring into this position. They are confident in my skill set." And I couldn't give energy to that, because that is someone else's stuff. That's not my stuff, right? And I'm not gonna own that. I'm not gonna own that for them, you know? And I will continue to do good work. I will continue to strive to be the best leader I can be. I will continue to always learn. I will never ever think that I know everything about my field, because it's ever-changing and I won't ever. That's the beauty of being a professional. I can constantly learn. But I had to distinctively really say "Just because you question my value and my worth doesn't mean that I do." And I don't. And you have to not own that, because people are willing to give you their stuff all the time, especially in leadership. "Go take this because I'm not comfortble with this. I have anxiety over this. I don't like this. You're making me change. I've been in this job for 20 years, and you're taking it away from me and I don't like it," but that's your stuff. I can help you get there if you're willing to take the ride with me, but if you're unwilling to take the ride with me I can't help you get there. This is about a compromise here. I'm not saying that it's gotta be my way or the highway. I'm happy to take you along for this journey, but you're gonna have to allow me to do that. Right? But one thing that I have always--and I think this is what I get from my mom, who is one of the most strong African-American females I know alongside my great-grandmother... never question your value or your worth. I made tremendous investments in myself to ensure that I know that what looks like for myself, and I can't take the energy away from my work and from the students who need to see me in this role and who can benefit from me being in this role, who can benefit from the networking, who I can get them in jobs. I can't take energy away from that work because a person isn't okay with me, 'cause that's not my stuff.Sheneisha: Oh, my goodness. You know what? If I could just--if I could bottle you up and take you with me everywhere I go. [both laugh] I'm telling you. I feel like I can go out here and move mountains. You are so encouraging, and you have so much wisdom and knowledge. And Buffalo State, I mean, you guys made an excellent choice, and the students I know for sure are being motivated and impacted in a multitude of ways and are going to come out on top. Graduation will not just be it. I see great, great things on the horizon for the university. This is magnificent, having you on board. I mean, wow.Jackie: That's my goal, you know? To be able to--at the end of the day, I think also too that when you know the purpose of your work, and so--and also keeping in mind, if I can stress anything to those who are partaking of this conversation, please don't ever think that this is about yourself, because if you--if the work that you do and the progression of your career is about you, boy, you're gonna miss out on so, so much, right? For me, my growth and where I am professionally is about me being in a position to give back and to be able to elevate others, you know, and like you said, each one teach one, but I think what's important for African-American females is there's enough space for all of us, right? We don't have to compete against each other. I want to be able to support you and to do whatever it is you need to progress within your career, whether that is supporting your business and investing in your services and your products or whether that is a conversation, whether that is to put you in touch with someone who can be helpful to you. That's what this is about, you know? This is not about competition. We don't need to compete with each other. We need to support each other. We need to make sure that we understand the value that we have as African-American females and that we are in a position to help elevate each other. Our numbers, if we banded together just on sheer numbers and how we can support each other, ooh, you know? We will continue to do beautiful things. And so I also would stress that this cannot just be about yourself and what you can obtain and what you can gain and how much money you can make. While yes, we all want to be able to support our families and do wonderful things, this is bigger than us as individuals.Sheneisha: 'Cause we are greater women for success. Listen, Living Corporate family, if you have not picked up on these words of advice, words of encouragement--'cause that's definitely what she just gave you, words of advice and encouragement. It's not just about you. We are great women, black and brown, and great men as well, on the rise to success, and Dr. Jackie, thank you so much for your time and for your beautiful words and for your great intellect and knowledge and wisdom and conversation and sharing strategy on how we can take that non-traditional role and make it into something beautiful, your own unique path. Owning who you are, your unique self, developing yourself always, not settling for just mediocre. Making sure that we're realizing it's not just about us, but those who are connected to us, being direct and indirect. And I just thank you so, so much for your time. Are there any shout-outs that you would like to give?Jackie: I would love to give a shout-out to my president Kathryn Conway Turner, and she is just a beacon of light for me and support. And all of my colleagues on the Buffalo State cabinet. I have never had such great colleagues to help support and encourage me. Certainly my family, who without them I would not be here. Goodness, gracious. And, you know, for all of the folks that were willing to invest in me. You know, I just thank everyone for allowing me to become who I am in my truest sense and really, you know, an opportunity for me to really be in a space where I know my own truth, both personally and professionally.Sheneisha: That is so wonderful. How would--if our listeners wanted to reach out to you, do you have an Instagram or a Twitter? I know we have your LinkedIn information that we'll be sure to link below.Jackie: Yep. They can actually always reach me on LinkedIn. That's sort of my most favorite place for folks to reach me. I am on Twitter. I just changed my handle. It's @VPwithamohawk. [laughs] You can reach me on Twitter if you'd like to do that as well. I'm always up for networking and conversation and supporting however way in which I can, so just reach out and let me know how I can be helpful.Sheneisha: Great. You know what, family? That's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have any questions you'd like for us to answer or read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Sheneisha, and you've been listening to our wonderful, beautiful, talented... I mean, super smart, beyond smart, amazing guest Dr. Jacquelyn Malcolm. Please be sure to reach out to her on LinkedIn. And we'll talk to you guys later. Peace.

Hey guys! Cherry here, listen in with special guests Nipun and Jason as we talk minorities! Nipun is Indian, Jason is Chinese and I'm African American so we're gonna dive into our diverse experiences as minorities- and popculture! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thatsenouoghcherry/message

We discuss the idea of being a black executive in Corporate America with Frost Bank President Michael Williams.Michael Williams' LinkedInHelp Beat Triple Negative DCIS Breast CancerTRANSCRIPTZach: It was a dream job, the type of assignment that could make or break the career of an ambitious executive with an eye towards the top. "It was my first big promotion," says Bernard J. Tyson, the 57-year-old CEO of Kaiser Permanente, a health care company with nearly $60 billion in annual revenue. The year was 1992, and Tyson, then in his early thirties, had been named administrator of one of Kaiser's newest hospitals in Santa Rosa, California. "Everyone knew this was the hospital to lead," he says. His physician partner, an elderly white gentleman named Dr. Richard Stein, was less excited by the news. "It was one of those "Guess who's coming to dinner?" sort of welcomes," Tyson recalls, and it went downhill from there. The two men were constantly at odds, unable to collaborate, with most conversations ending in angry standoffs. "He would say something, and I would react," says Tyson. "It was the most difficult relationship I have ever had." Failure seemed inevitable. One day, Stein invited Tyson for a walk. "He said, "I have to confess something to you, something that may end our relationship,"" Tyson recalls. "I have never worked with a black man like this." He meant as a peer. Stein, it seems, didn't know what to say, to act, what to expect. Tyson saw it for the opening it was. "It was this moment I realized the majority of the population doesn't have any sort of mental road map for how to relate to and work with someone different from themselves." This is an excerpt from Why Race and Culture Matter in the C-Suite, an article written by Ellen McGirt, for Fortune Magazine, and I believe it highlights the reality many people of color in leadership face every day. Being in spaces where few of us are present is challenging enough, but compounding that with the task of leading teams, as in telling them what to do? How does one succeed in that environment? Further, what does success even look like? This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about what it means to be a leader of people while also being a person of color in Corporate America.Ade: Yeah. So to be honest, I usually get so focused on making sure that I'm good in my career and navigating all the nonsense involved with making sure that my individual contributions are recognized. I usually don't even think about what it means to lead a team full of people who don't look, think, or behave like I do.Zach: I know, right? And to your point, all of those things you just mentioned, they're critical and of course very important and really don't change as you become a leader, but it's interesting because when you look at that article that I read by Ellen McGirt, it highlights Bernard Tyson's experience about white men having to engage him as a equal. So I'm a manager, so I'm not an executive. I'm not a CEO. Nothing fancy like that. I'm the manager, but even as my managerial experience, I can say that beyond leading a team, being in a position where folks who would typically have to--or typically would overlook me actually have to submit to listening to my ideas and my proposals and my direction. It's been a really interesting experience. Ade: Hm. So I hear you, I get your point, but do you perhaps have any examples for us?Zach: For sure. So a few years ago I was working on a project where I was dealing with a manager, and I was telling them what the approach should be for a specific task. I was walking them through the methodology and just the reason and rationale behind why we were gonna make this approach, and as I'm talking to him his face starts just turning bright red. Ade: What? [laughs]Zach: Yeah. [laughs] Like, it's like he ate, like, a habanero pepper or a ghost pepper, and he's trying to hold it in that it's not spicy. Like, he doesn't want anyone to know it's spicy, right? So he's just sitting in there, and his head is shaking, and he's got a little vein bulging out the side of his head. I'm like--Ade: What in the world?Zach: I know! And so I'm talking to him, and I'm just kind of--I'm just having my normal--I'm not talking at him, right? I'm just talking to him. I'm having a normal exchange, and I'm trying to, like, keep up the same casual cadence of my talk while seeing him clearly, clearly be uncomfortable.Ade: Huh. So I'm just curious. Like, was there anyone else in the room who saw this? Who, like, witnessed what was going on and pointing it out?Zach: Yeah. So I was in the room, then my manager was in the room, and he was in the room of course. So they saw this the whole time, and it wasn't like a one-time occurrence, right? So for those folks listening like, "Well, maybe it was just a one-time thing. Maybe he had a hard day." He had multiple hard days, okay? Ade: [laughs] It be like that sometimes.Zach: [laughs] Right? It happened so many times. It happened, like, literally every time we spoke. We spoke once a week for, like, two months, two or three months, and I'm like, "This happens every single time." So now--even when I spoke to my manager about it, I'm like, "Hey, are you noticing this?" Like, "Do you see what's happening here?" You know, she was even reluctant to admit and acknowledge, like, "Oh, I do notice this," and so why she was so uncomfortable talking about the situation and why she was even more reticent to talk to other people about the situation, including, like, our project manager, is for another podcast, but needless to say it was pretty weird.Ade: Okay. Well, I know that you've had experiences as a manager. I personally have not. I am, like we've said multiple times, at the beginning of my career, but wouldn't it be great if we had someone on the show who had about 20 years of experience as an executive within the finance industry, which--Zach: 20 years?Ade: 20. I would argue that the finance industry is one of the most politically-charged spaces, but you didn't hear that from me. So I'm not sure. I feel like it would be good if we had someone who has had to climb multiple ladders, maybe build coalitions of support, maybe who has had active participation as a leader in his community and has acted as a mentor to other people of color.Zach: Hm. You mean like--wait a minute, let me check my notes--you mean like our guest Michael Williams?Ade and Zach: Whaaaat?Zach: [imitating air horns]Ade: Never gonna get tired of that. [laughs] All right, so next we're going to get into our interview with our guest Michael Williams. Hope you guys enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as Ade said, we have Michael Williams on the show. Michael, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the pod, man.Michael: Man, thank you so much for inviting me.Zach: Absolutely. So for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background?Michael: Sure, sure. I guess--where to start? I'm originally from Dallas, but I moved here and attended Texas Southern University and the University of Houston. Met my wife, who is an only child, and guess what? I was gonna stay a Houstonian. So after school--I had always wanted to be in banking, so I started down that line of pursuing a career in banking, and I have not looked back since. I guess it's been going on 27 years. 26, 27 years. Somewhere in there. I need to do the math. It's in there.Zach: [laughing] That's awesome. So when did you first start leading and managing teams in Corporate America?Michael: So I've been leading a team of corporate bankers for about eight years now, and I actually--for the bank I'm currently employed, I actually am what's called a market president. I run the entire [Southwood?] side for the bank. So I have a team of 13 commercial lenders that work directly for me, and the way we're structured, while I don't do anything in the branches, I have three branches--excuse me, five branches where my people are located, but all of those individuals have a dotted line responsibility under me as well. So while I in effect manage 13 directly, I have actually management I guess authority for somewhere over about 40, 45 people.Zach: Wow, that's amazing. So, you know, this show we're talking about--we're talking about leading while black, and so can you explain a bit for the audience--and shoot, for myself as well--the difference between being a manager and being an executive? And in your career, how do you manage that shift?Michael: Sure, sure. You know, it's--one of the things I continue to do is just aspire to read. I'm an avid reader, and I've read many books on not only how to manage but also--frankly, if someone would have told me management was more about managing the people relative to how they coexist, I would've actually got--instead of getting a degree in finance, I would've gotten a degree in psychology, because really that's where the buck stops. If you can understand that you have influence as a manager, you can easily--and I don't mean just regular influence. I mean you have to understand that everything you do has the ability to set the table up for your future, and those decisions that you make, you need to be calculating because you have the ability to influence people without you even knowing it. And so when I made the switch is when I decided to get an advocate for me at a senior level that allowed that person to see me and my skill set and be able to be my advocate above my pay grade to allow people to say, "Okay, this guy, he not only knows what he's doing, but he's also someone that we can actually incorporate into our senior management team."Zach: That's really interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about when you say advocate and really what you mean when you say advocate, and what were some of the things that they were able to do for you as you were able to transition into that next level of leadership?Michael: Sure. Here's the one thing we all have to--the people who--the vast majority of your audience needs to understand. As a minority--and I'm African-American, so as an African-American minority, the one thing that we don't have is direct access to the highest levels of any corporation, and in many instances, as it stands today, there are not gonna be a lot of people that look like us. And so I remember back when I was at another institution and there was one senior-level African-American gentleman there. That individual decided that it was in his own best interest not to uplift and promote and advocate for younger African-Americans. It was a sad--it was a sad sight to see. It was a very difficult experience to go through personally, but what I learned from that, I took away from that is I will never do that to anyone.Zach: Amen.Michael: Because people sitting back trying to figure out how to gain more ability--excuse me, more control and/or allow their skill set to show that they have the ability to be at the next table, and he would block them 100%.Zach: Wow.Michael: And so my career has been all about making sure that I help those coming behind me who have the requisite skill set and the requisite training. That's first and foremost. So in terms of--in terms of understanding your point, how you make that switch, the biggest thing is you need to--I said find an advocate, but you also, in my mind, have to bring people up behind you that are highly competent and qualified, and now you've got this team of people around you, and if you have that advocate, they see that and they want talent. They want talent absolutely. They just have not been used to having talent, and they certainly--in terms of African-American talent. So they don't necessarily embrace that, but what they do is they lead those people to the side to try to figure out who's on first, what's on second, and how you actually get to tell them you're on first and John is on second and Theodore is on third or whatever the case is is you have to embrace getting someone to get to know you. So in my--in my (life?) career, when I figured that out in my previous institution, I actually had the chairman of the bank--excuse me, the president of the bank here in Texas as my mentor. Today, I've got the president of the bank as my mentor. He is the #2 in the bank. We meet on a quarterly basis. I don't ask him for anything. I ask him for his time, and I want to share his--I want him to share his thoughts, and he wants to hear my thoughts about a various, just a various amount of things. It has nothing to do directly with "How do I get promoted?" "How do I do this?" It's all about just communication, because what I'm trying to do and what I have learned, if you break those walls down and are able to communicate, then that allows that person to see you as someone that they can feel comfortable with, and that really is the biggest barrier to any minority trying to break into the upper levels of executive management if it's not your company because they don't know us as a people, as a rule. All they do is listen to, unfortunately, Fox News and other similar detracting and negative news accounts about us as a people in general, and they make these generalizations without knowing you individually.Zach: We introed the show talking about and sharing a story from Bernard Tyson, who is the CEO of Kaiser Permanente, his experience in having to deal with individuals who had never worked with a black man as a peer. So I'm curious to know how many instances you've had where you've said, "Wow, you've clearly never worked with a black man before." Like, has that happened? And if so, would you mind sharing a story or two?Michael: Sure, sure. That has absolutely happened, and you could see it coming 100% down the line. It's amazing. I've had it happen so many times, but I remember a couple of different instances. I'll give you a couple stories. One, as a young analyst, you know, all of us who come through commercial lending, investment banking, all of these corporate-type lending groups, we all have to go through this vetting process and this training process, and it's generally about a year, and we'd learn all this stuff, and then we're out--we're put into these groups, and we're analysts, so we're at the bottom of the rung, right? We're [runts?]. And so I'm in this group, and this--[laughs] calling him a gentleman is good. It's way above where he was in [inaudible], however this gentleman ran the group, and this was--this was in the early '90s. And so this guy--to give you kind of just an overall view of who he is, this guy would smoke in his office. It was illegal to smoke inside of the building, but he would smoke in his office. But he was an old head, he was a successful old head, and senior management didn't bother him. So they let him smoke in his office. Well, okay. So this guy, the manager of group, he was clear that he did not like me, and he made himself clear by several different things that he did. And I'll give you one nice example. So I am in the habit of drinking a gallon of water today, and actually I still do that to this day, and I had my jug that had a lot of water in it, and we were in meetings, and he turns to me in front of everybody and says, "Why do you have all that water?" "Because I like to drink a lot of water." He said, "Well, you know what? That is so sophomoric of you. It's like you're a little kid with a jug." I was like, "Whoa. Okay, this is just water." So we go forward. I take that as a note and I keep moving. Of course I didn't get rid of my water. I just decided to hide it from him all of the time. So there was an instance where when we get into work in the morning we would go get something to eat for breakfast, 'cause typically we'd have to get in early, so we typically would get something to eat for breakfast. My counterpart, the young analyst that was with me, would go--she would check into the office, sit down, turn her computer on, and then go get something to eat. I would go get something to eat, come back, check in and sit down and get something--and start working. I was told that I was habitually late. Now, mind you, I got in before it was the normal working hours all of the time, but because I got breakfast first, came back to my desk, she came to her desk, checked in, meaning face time--and I'm using total air quotes right now--Zach: Right. [laughs]Michael: Meaning face time. It was acceptable to do what she was doing and unacceptable to do what I was doing, and these are very small, minor things, right? Well, one thing everyone needs to take away from anything--if you don't take anything else away from what I'm saying, it is absolutely this - you cannot progress, move up, move forward in any career unless management likes you. Period. Stop. End of story. You could be the most highly-qualified, the brightest--have the brightest mind, have the best work ethic, but if your manager does not like you you will not be able to move up. As a matter of fact, your job is in peril and you don't even know it.Zach: So that was when you were, you know, a new analyst. You were coming in. You were getting hired. You're working for the old head. Was there anybody--was there any instance or experience you had as a leader where you were like, "Wow. Okay, you've clearly never dealt with a person of color before." Michael: Oh, sure. Sure. So we're working on a very sizeable transaction, and my team is managing--I am managing my team, and it's one of my lender's opportunities, and this deal is north of $100 million, so it's gonna be a nice year--Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You said one zero zero million dollars?Michael: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I do corporate lendings, so, I mean, I've worked on several significant-sized transactions for many publicly-traded companies in my past.Zach: Wow.Michael: So at any rate, this is gonna be our year. This deal is basically gonna make our year. So this is my deal. We're working on it, and unbeknownst to me there was some chatter in the background by a counterpart, so another manager, and this person made some questionable comments about me and my ability to lead us through the closing of this deal. I had never even interacted with this guy, so the things that he was saying about me and my inefficiencies. He went on about being efficient, not having ever done a deal of this size before, it actually needs to be done by him and his group. Zach: Wow.Michael: You know? And I sat back and I said, "Wow, interesting." For me, one of the things I'm real keen on is documentation, and so along the way of that particular process I was able to have my documentation in order so that the president, who was the final arbiter, came down to find out what was going on and why we were having some discord, and I simply said, "I'm not sure." And this is another nice little note here. Michelle Obama said it best. "When they go low, we go high." Never get into the mud when people are throwing mud at you. Never. Never. Because you will never win that situation as a minority. You will never win that situation. Even if you win that situation, you've lost. You've just lost because they're already afraid of you, they don't know you, and then now you've got quote-unquote real with somebody, oh, they don't want you around. They don't want you around. That scares the living crap out of them.Zach: But this is my thing. So Michael--like, for those--you know, I've known you, or at least I've known of you for a while, and so I know--but you are a keep it real type of dude, and you're definitely not, like, a back down kind of guy. So let's talk about this documentation and how you stood up for yourself, right? 'Cause I know that's not who you are, so let's keep it real, right? Like, let's--Michael: [laughs] Oh, you are so real with it, and I will admit 100% to have always been an enforcer. I'm just gonna be clear about that. I'm not gonna lie about who I am as a person. Zach: Amen. [laughs]Michael: I grew up--I didn't give you all of the background, but I grew up in the projects of south Dallas. So I grew up fighting. I know how to fight, man. That's not even a question. These hands are real good. These hands are real good. However, what I've--what I've learned over my career is that in order for me to be who I want to be--and now, maybe earlier on I probably would've put hands on him or done something that probably would have not allowed me to move forward as far as I have today, however he caught me at a time in my life where I know better, and I know that I am--my level of intelligence taught me early on, through my mistakes probably, but I wanted to be able to be smarter, more intelligent, and more calculating. I can't say that enough. Here's my phrase that I say all of the time. "I play chess, not checkers." And in life and in Corporate America, it's always chess. If you think you're playing checkers, you've just lost. It's always chess. You've got to think two to three steps ahead and why is that going on and why did that just happen? See, it just didn't happen for a reason. Something happened. And oh, by the way, there are multiple conversations going on without you even knowing about it. You don't even know conversations are happening and they're happening. So it's not about trying to be paranoid or being paranoid. It's all about realizing that they're having these conversations, making these judgments, making some assumptions about you without you even knowing about it. So go back to your question. I have always documented what's going on, and I've always done that to the point of understanding two things. One, it helps me to make sure I'm clear about what's going on, and then two, there's a little saying--although I've never been soothed, there's a little saying that says, "Everything is discoverable," meaning I look at--I look at every situation like there's a lawsuit pending, and as long as I'm looking at it like there's a lawsuit pending or this could promote a lawsuit, I make sure that not only am I keeping my ducks in a row, but I make sure I limit the things that I say that are a part of public record, be it in writing or orally, because I want to limit my exposure while documenting and keeping up with what everybody else is doing.Zach: See, the thing about it is I'm kind of--I'm kind of shook, to be honest with you. Right? [laughs] I'm kind of like, "Okay." Like, I'm listening to you, and honestly I'm hoping that my sound man puts a little bit of House of Cards type music in the background because I'm hearing what you're saying. I don't disagree, right? So this is just good information to have, and I'm a few rungs down the ladder, and so politically understanding how to navigate these spaces--and there are plenty of people who are listening to this show who are aspiring to get there. I'm curious though. We have folks in our spaces, and I think as you know when you look at the history of civil rights and just black liberation, you have to have allies. You have to have folks that don't look like you who are advocating for you. You talked about advocacy at the beginning of our interview. I'm curious to know--you know, there are people who do look like us, but there are people who don't look like us also who listen to this show who are passionate about diversity and inclusion, who are passionate about being supportive and really leading that next generation. What advice do you have, right, for our non-Wakandan brothers and sisters listening in?Michael: As I cross my arms and let my fists down.Zach: And bounce your shoulders a little bit. [laughs]Michael: [laughs] Right, bounce up a little bit. Let me tell you this. The thing that I can say is judge people--I mean, it's funny. MLK said it best. "Judge people for the content of their character, not for the color of their skin." Yes. Are there people out there that have--are trying to run a [gang?] Maybe not as qualified but have snuck into the door, yes, but guess what? That's on both sides. Zach: Hm.Michael: That is not exclusive to minorities, and in particular African-American minorities. That's on both sides of the equation. So judge people for their content, their capacity, and their intellect. That's how you--that's how someone with aspirations of being an advocate can do--get work in whatever their chosen field of human endeavor is, because there--first of all, there's not enough room at the top for everyone. Period. Stop. End of story. Full stop. However, people get passed over for reasons that, in a lot of instances, didn't have to be necessarily. But it happens because that's life, right? You know, life is truly Mike Tyson's big ol' heavy hands. It just keeps coming at you, and you're gonna get your butt knocked down, and you gotta figure out whether or not you can get up and/or have the will and the power to get up because they gonna come right back at you. Those people who get up, those people who have that fighting instinct, who are intelligent, who are hungry, those are the individuals. If you can just look at them for who they are and what they bring to the table, that's a good deal.Zach: Absolutely. I'm curious--I'm curious about this, kind of as a follow-up to really what you just said. You know, are there any--are there any specific experiences or points of advice you've received in your career that have stuck with you and really helped you drive and continue forward to the place where you are today?Michael: One, have that drive, have that inquisitive nature. Always ask the question. You don't ever know what the answer is, nor should you think you would know the answer, but you've got to be willing to ask the question. And once you ask the question? Oh, by the way, learn and don't repeat whatever it is you did before. Okay? So I'm a big one-time guy. Ask me the question or let me ask the question one time or tell me one time, I got it. I've got to move forward. Now, the responsibility thereafter is on me 'cause you told me. So now I want to demonstrate whatever it is. I have the capacity not only to remember what's supposed to happen here but to incorporate it into what I'm doing and move forward. That's one. Two, more important than anything else, never ever lose yourself. Whoever you are, it is you. God brought you into this world. Your experiences up to whatever that point is have made you who you are. Never lose yourself. Learn to navigate within the political world that we live in, especially in Corporate America, and refine your edges. Like you said, you've known me. You guessed that I was a fighter, [laughs] but I've learned to smooth my edges out and to be able to be--to walk in any room and strike up a conversation. Insert name here, insert title here puts his pants on every single day like I do, one leg at a time. So he's no more special than I am in that regard. All he has done is he has made himself or have been able to get the breaks to make himself--put himself in a leadership position. Maybe at the top of the company. Maybe at the next level. It doesn't matter. He's still a person who puts his clothes on--his pants on one leg at a time, therefore I have the ability to interact with this person and find maybe some level of commonness that would allow us to engage in conversation and then, again, continuing to erode any kind of preconceived notions and ideals about who I am simply because I showed up and my skin was a little bit darker than yours. Zach: This is just so helpful, Michael. Thank you so much for joining us today. Before we let you go though, do you have any plugs? Any shout outs?Michael: Oh, what could I shout out? I could shout out my wife's foundation. I lost my wife now seven years ago to breast cancer, and I started a foundation for her in an effort to help find a cure for this dreaded, horrible cancer called triple negative DCIS cancer. It is one of the most aggressive forms of breast cancer for--unfortunately for African-American women, and we have an annual walk to celebrate her life, but also to raise funds. We raise funds through corporate giving as well. The website is www.YEF.org, and that stands for Yolanda E. Williams Foundation. YEF.org. You can go on the site. We're preparing for our October walk now. The date has not been set. We will be doing that in a matter of weeks, and you can go on the site and check that out. And so my plug is help me figure out, through raising funds and donating to research, how to get rid of this scourge called triple negative DCIS breast cancer. I don't want anything else.Zach: Amen. So this is what we're gonna do. So first of all, we'll make sure that we have that website in our show notes, and we'll shout that out when we publish this, and then what we'll also do is when you confirm the date, Michael, let us know, and we'll make sure that we shout that out on the podcast as well.Michael: I will do just that.Zach: Okay. Well, first of all, just thank you so much for joining the call. I appreciate you joining the show. I appreciate the insights and just stories that you've been able to share. We wouldn't have had you on the show if we didn't know and trust that you would give us honest, frank, transparent conversation, and I believe we've had that today. We'd like to think you're a friend of the show, and I want to thank you again, and we hope to have you back real soon.Michael: I look forward to it.Zach: All right, Michael.Michael: Count me as a friend.Zach: I will. All right, now. Peace.Michael: All right. Thank you.Ade: And we're back. Zach, that was a great interview. One thing it did remind me of though was the fact that we interviewed a black man, but because the way the system is set up--you know, sexism, racism, and all of the other -isms--I believe that if we had had a black woman on the show talking about this we might've had a slightly different conversation due to the relationship of being a black woman in positions of authority.Zach: You know what, I agree. If you don't mind though, go ahead and expound on that.Ade: Right. So I'm sure you've heard of intersectionality, although for those of our listeners who haven't, it's simply the idea that there are--that your identity form different axes of the way you relate with the world, and so that means your relationships with the world and with certain aspects of the world such as Corporate America as a black man differs from mine as a black woman, and there are different aspects of that. So your sexuality also interacts with that. Your age interacts with that. Your class interacts with that. And so all of that said, I think that if we think about things like the angry black woman trope and how that would reflect in being a leader and how, for example, black women usually aren't allowed to get angry or to express dissatisfaction with anything, otherwise it's "Oh, she's so bitter. She's so angry," as opposed to "No, I'm rightly disappointed in your work product," and all the other ways in which that could affect, you know, the final outcome as a--as a leader. I definitely would like to have that conversation with a black woman in maybe a part two, you know?Zach: You know what? That's a good point, and I agree. Let's make sure that we get a part two on the schedule and get going on that.Ade: Most def. I definitely want to interview, like, an Oprah. Trying to get my auntie on the show. Maybe a Viola Davis. Let's see what we can pop on. How are you feeling?Zach: I feel great about that. You said a Viola Davis?Ade: Or an Oprah. You know, I'm not too picky.Zach: An Ava DuVernay, perhaps?Ade: Ava DuVer--see? [inaudible]Zach: Maybe an Issa Rae?Ade: Stop it. I have a girl crush on her. I have a crush crush on her, but I also have a girl crush on her.Zach: I have an artistic cross on Issa Rae for sure. I was gonna say Issa DuVernay, which would be an amazing combination if both of those, like, fused into one person. My gosh.Ade: Oh, my God. Think of awkward black girl but [shot by?]--[Sound Man throws in a swerve sound effect]Zach: What?Ade: [laughs] Okay, now we're going down different tangents. Okay, anyway. Today we have a listener letter, so as a reminder to everybody at home, we encourage conversation, and so we're looking forward to reading any letters, comments, questions from everyone. So let's get into it. So today we have this letter. We're gonna call this listener Nicole, and let's read Nicole's thoughts. Okay, so it says, "Hi, guys." Hi. "I love your podcast and your insightful advice. This is a career question." All right, let's go. "I usually don't ask anyone I don't personally know about advice, but when I told my circle of friends about this particular situation they were stumped. They didn't know what to say, so here we go. I've been at my job for close to three years, and I've adapted to the many changes that came within my department. A year in, I got switched to a different sector of my department, which meant that I was part of a team of two - the manager and I. My manager has been working with this company for close to ten years and is jaded by all of the politics that comes with working at a large company and in our department. She's much older than me and has been working in this particular industry for decades. My manager and I obviously make for a small department since it's just the two of us, but we're overloaded with work and last-minute projects, which sucks, but it's part of the inner workings of the culture. Anyway, very recently my manager was having a meeting with the director during which the convo switched to me. I was not attending the meeting, but my name came up. The director then asked my manager, "How are you expanding her role?" It seemed as though it was a slew of questions about my potential and what my manager was doing for me in order to make that happen. This didn't seem to go over too well. When I came back from lunch, my manager was venting to me about this meeting. She basically told the director that if she, being my manager, is unclear of her own role and didn't see how she could advance in the company, how could she advance me? And this is just a paraphrasing of the events. And so while she was venting I was simply nodding my head because what else could I say to someone who feels stuck in their job and is managing me? For someone who is much older, I thought she was gonna be a good example, but I've come to realize she isn't. Lately I've been looking for new jobs that pay better because even though my department seems to make millions for the higher-ups, they're stingy when it comes to raises. I've only received one raise, which equated to pennies in my paycheck." Pennies? Oh, Lord. Okay, all right. Anyway. "Should I hit the pavement looking for a new job that pays more or should I try to stick it out and work with my jaded manager? Thanks again, and I hope to get some encouraging advice. Nicole." My goodness. Okay, Nicole. There's so much happening here. I don't--I hate to sound like a typical situation, but this really did rock Zach and I when we gave this a first read-through. And so, Zach, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna go ahead and give my thoughts on it. Or did you want to go first?Zach: The floor is yours.Ade: Okay. So as I see it, there are, like, several different layers of suck here. I'm sorry that--first of all, I'm sorry that you're going through this. It's not a fun or funny situation when you feel as though your career is in the hands of someone who doesn't care about you, but like I said, there are several different layers, and I think it would be best to separate all of those things. So on the one hand, you have a situation where--and at the beginning of Living Corporate, we actually had--I believe it's our very first episode--where we were talking about separating your sponsors for your mentors, knowing the two and leveraging the two. Currently I believe what you need is a sponsor, not a mentor. Your current mentor isn't doing her job. And then the other issue is the matter of your money and getting a new job. So I'm just gonna address them one after the other. So I believe you need to go on the hunt for a sponsor, whether that is within your company, somebody who has a role that you eventually see yourself taking. So obviously this requires first figuring out what you want your trajectory to be at this current moment. That doesn't mean that it can't change, but I believe that everybody needs a five-year plan for themselves. And so in five years, where do you see yourself? In ten years, where do you see yourself? And find people who have optimized their career and go talk to them, whether it's within your company or without. Go on coffee dates. Hit people up on LinkedIn. And I promise you that's not a weird thing. I just came to realize that myself. Like, I'll hit up people on LinkedIn and just kind of ask them to go for coffee or, you know, get their thoughts on certain things. So that's one. The other is that, you know, I understand that you might be feeling hurt, but what your manager is going through is about her and not you, and so although it feels as though she's kind of set herself up as a barrier instead of helping you in your career, I wouldn't take that too personally. Don't let that reflect in your work. If anything, allow that to spur more conversations with, again, those sponsors that you're looking for because they're the ones--within your company, they're the ones who will be putting you on new projects, who will be putting you in places, in rooms, in situations where they feel you have the potential to progress. And outside of your company, those sponsors are the ones who will slide you those job links like, "Hey, I saw this come up. I think you'd be a perfect fit in this situation. What do you think? Go ahead and apply," which brings me to my next point. Any raise that's pennies per paycheck--Zach: Yeah. If that's literal then yeah, that's a pause-worthy statement.Ade: Yeah, that's not it. That's not the lifestyle that I'm hoping and praying for for all my people. I was actually just having this conversation with a group of my friends that closed mouths don't get fed, and it's very typical, particularly of people of color, particularly of women of color, to feel as though we should be grateful for, you know, the pennies as opposed to asking for the thousands, and I don't know if that's gonna, for you, look like--and this is all gonna be personal to you, whether you feel as though you need to be in this company and so you need to figure out how to have the conversation about raises or if you need to step outside and start looking for new jobs. And to that I would say optimize your LinkedIn, get your resume together. If you need to find a professional to look at your resume for you or if, again, those sponsors that you're looking for can take a look at your resume and help you in that regard. But I would definitely say you should start networking. Go to industry events. So whatever your industry is, Meetup is a really good place to find organizations or groups where you can network and meet people and kind of--if you have business cards--give your business cards out, ask people out to coffee at those events. People there are open and willing to mentor you, but you just have to ask. And so those would be my two biggest recommendations for you, and definitely, definitely, definitely keep your head up because this is something that I can relate to personally, and I'm sure Zach has, in some form or fashion, been in a position where he's had to advocate for himself, but you are always your own best advocate, and so this is just a matter of fine-tuning the language and finding the people who are willing to listen to you. Zach, what you got?Zach: Yeah. I mean, one I absolutely agree with your point, right? With all the points that you've made. Ultimately, just to keep it a little bit more succinct, I think it comes down to two things. First of all, you are your best advocate, and then two it's your own career. So it's really one point, right? So you have a couple things here, right? So you have challenges internally where you have your manager who's a bit frustrated and jaded to the language that you're used to, and you now have concerns if they're going to be able to advocate for you. Well, like to what we've been saying, rejecting the premise that anyone else is responsible for advocating for you and that you own your career, it starts with you saying, "Okay, what is it that I want to achieve here?" And then just talking to people, knocking on doors inside your company and being like, "Look, this is what I want to do. This is how I want to do it. Can you help me?" And be comfortable with the people who say no. And they may say no by just flat out saying no. They may say no by just not following up. They may say no by some long-winded answer, but just be comfortable with the people saying no 'cause eventually you'll find someone saying yes. Now, if you can't find the yes internally then it is time to leave, and you already were talking about the fact that you're looking for--you're exploring another opportunity. So your salary--like, your salary is a personal problem. So what do I mean by that? Your salary is a personal problem, meaning you having an issue with your salary, that's an issue between you and you. So you need to figure out a way how you're gonna answer that question. So are you going to get put together a case internally and say, "Hey, look. This is the number I'm looking for because I haven't had a raise in this many years," or "I've only had this one raise," or whatever the case is, or are you going to find another job, right? So plenty of studies show that when it comes to job hunting, you know, you're gonna get a bigger bump transitioning away from a company than you are staying inside. And I'll--there might be people who argue or disagree with me on that. If you do, please send in a letter, send in your comments. And there's more to a job than just your salary, but my point is you have to figure out a way to address that for yourself, right? And, like, I'm not attacking you. I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've definitely been there, where I've got caught up in the illusion of waiting for people to advocate for me, but I realized that people only advocate for you as much as it helps themselves. And so your manager who has her frustrations and things of that nature, that's perfectly human, and she shouldn't be shamed for that. At the same time, that's not your problem. Your problem is how are you gonna make sure that you take care of yourself? So Nicole, like, we're really excited about you sending us another letter, like, letting us know what's going on. We definitely are praying for the best. There's definitely a lot going on for sure, but yeah, advocate for yourself. And we actually have an article dropping on Living Corporate soon about strategic self-advocacy, so keep an eye out for that. If you have any additional questions, just reach back out and we'll make sure to chop it up. Offline.Ade: And definitely thank you for writing us and trusting us with this. So that about wraps it up for our listener letter portion of the segment. As a reminder, we do encourage conversation, so please reach out if you have any questions, comments, or concerns for us.[segment break]Ade: All right, y'all. It is another episode of Favorite Things. So I have a confession actually, guys. Please, please, please keep this on the downlow, as I say this on a podcast. I had my first bite of mac and cheese recently. I know. I know.Zach: Your first bite? Like, you've just now--you've just now tried--Ade: I just--like, I literally just tried mac and cheese, and it was--and I feel like the only real reason that I liked it was because it was a seafood mac and cheese because I've always been really, really averse to cheese, but I've only recently started being okay with it. Like, it doesn't automatically make me nauseous. And so, like, I had my--my friend made--there was a kickback, and my friend made seafood mac and cheese, and I was like, "Seafood? I guess I can give it a shot." I don't know what that voice was. [laughs] But I gave it a shot and I ate it, and it was good. Like, it was really, really good, and I was like, "Hold on, wait a minute. Are you telling me that I've been missing out on deliciousness this whole time?" I was like, "No, this is probably a one-off. It's because of the seafood." And then I went to another event with friends, and my friend made just regular old mac and cheese, and I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna give it another shot," and it was astounding.Zach: [laughs] It was astounding?Ade: Astounding. Astounding. Are you kidding me? And so now I am mad that I have wasted all of these years of my life not eating cheese, specifically not eating mac and cheese, especially since I apparently make good mac and cheese, but I've never eaten it because I've always been afraid of what it does to my life afterwards--of what cheese does to my life. And so now I'm just trying to spend all this time, like, making up for lost time.Zach: With cheese.Ade: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Zach: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Okay. First of all, that's very funny. Ade: [laughs]Zach: Because mac and cheese is--first of all, it's just such a common dish from my perspective, right? But at the same time I'm excited for you, and I actually think what we should do is maybe add a fun segment from time to time just called Ade's Cheese, right? Like, where you try, like, a new cheese, right? So, like, maybe next time you try Gouda, and then another time you try feta. Ade: Actually--it's so funny you say that because I bought a smoked Gouda from the Amish [inaudible] market in my apartment, and it's in my fridge right now, okay?Zach: Okay. So okay, great. So look, let's take a note 'cause the next time--the next time we're together we'll bring up your review on Gouda. Ade: Look, listen. I actually already took a slice of it with some pepper jelly, and I want to fight every single one of my friends who did not inform me that cheese was this good.Zach: Right. Now, look, cheese is--cheese is good. Like, it's a seller for a reason.Ade: I want y'all to know that there's no way you love me and left me out of the secret for this long.Zach: Nah, see--actually, I challenge that, right? I challenge that because they could've been holding you back from cheese purely for the health reasons, right? Like, there's no--Ade: Nah, forget all that, because, like, they watch me eat three slices of cake and they actually encourage me. Like, "Here, have my slice of cake." Zach: Okay. Well, then I understand your frustration.Ade: See? Mm-hmm. They're not loyal. Not a single one of 'em. [laughs] My only other thing this week, it's a book called Perfect Peace by Daniel Black. So it's a book about what happens--there are several different themes. Part of it is gender. Part of it is, like, family betrayal. And so, like, the plot is it's this family in the rural south. Mama has six boys already, and she's pregnant with her seventh, and she, the whole time, is thinking, "Oh, this is gonna be my girl." She has a lot of issues surrounding her relationship with her mother, and so she wants to really, like, nurture a girl, a daughter. Turns out that she has a son, and so what she decides to do is raise her son as a daughter, and so she names this boy Perfect. Their family's called Peace. And so Perfect is raised, up until he's 8, as a girl. It's just this really, really gripping story about, like, love and family and what it means to--like, what gender means and what family means and what truth means and all of these other things, and you find yourself just, like, shocked every other page. But yeah, that's my favorite thing, and that was a whole lot, but I hope y'all take a look. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, that's cool. We've got to make sure that we add Perfect Peace to our reading list.Ade: Oh, yeah.Zach: That's right. Make sure you check out our reading list. It's great. So sticking with my record of aggressive book titles, my favorite thing right now has to be this book I'm rereading called This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get You Killed by Charles Cobb. It explores the history of nonviolence during the civil rights era and its function. It also breaks down the history and culture of gun ownership for black people in America. It's a really interesting read. Academic while not being too heavy. It's just a really approachable book, and it's also on our reading list, so make sure you check that out.Ade: And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. And that does it for this show. My name's Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

I answered a lot of questions in the this podcast. "I'm intimidated. I don't want a 9 to 5. I hate the thought of going to work each day. I'm African-American and everyone keeps asking me about my HAIR at work. Is it lonely at the top? Should I go into business with friends? Should I finish school? Is it too late to speak up for myself?" Stuff like that!