Podcasts about michael you

‍How often do leaders find themselves in situations where silence could have been their most powerful tool? In this episode, we dive deep into the leadership journey of Dr. Manrina Rhode and learn about the transformative lessons she's embraced as a business owner. Dr. Manrina candidly reveals her shift from a leader eager to express every thought to one who masterfully chooses her words. She shares intimate reflections on learning when to "shut up," a tactic that has redefined her approach to managing teams and maintaining a harmonious workplace environment. Her story is a compelling exploration of the inner changes she made to lead more effectively.Drawing from her own experiences, Dr. Manrina offers a toolbox of strategies vital for any leader aiming to foster accountability and support within their teams. From scheduling regular meetings to address concerns in a steady, composed fashion, to the importance of documenting and constructively addressing recurring issues, her advice is both practical and refreshingly honest. This episode is not just an insightful peek into her leadership evolution but a guide filled with actionable ideas any practice owner can implement to refine their communication style and team dynamics.What You'll Learn in This Episode:The power of silence in leadership and when to "shut up."Strategies for managing emotional reactions in the workplace.How to foster a supportive and accountable team environment.The importance of scheduled meetings for conflict resolution.Effective techniques for documenting and addressing recurring issues.The impact of calm and constructive communication on team morale.Tune in to discover how to communicate more effectively with your team!‍‍‍Sponsors:‍‍Gusto: Dentist payroll for the modern practice. Gusto's cloud-based software provides all the payroll and HR tools you need to run your dental practice efficiently. Having it all on one platform keeps our prices low, and makes your job so much easier. Enjoy best-in-class support, benefits like health coverage for your team, and more. Visit or copy and paste the link here for a special offer! https://gusto.com/tdm‍You can reach out to Dr. Manrina Rhode here:Instagram: instagram.com/drmanrinarhodeOther Mentions and Links:‍Brands:Botox‍If you want your questions answered on Monday Morning Episodes, ask me on these platforms:My Newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/The Dental Marketer Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2031814726927041‍Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)‍Michael: amen. Rena, so talk to us. What's one piece of advice you can give us this Monday morning? Manrina: My piece of advice is to learn to shut. Michael: Expound on that a little bit. is that advice? Manrina: I think it's something that I've had to learn as a business owner and it goes against everything I learned before I was a business owner. So as young lady growing up and then as an associate dentist, I always believed it was important to speak my mind. And if someone had upset me, offended me, done something that felt like an injustice, To speak out loud about it, and I kind of pride myself for being that person and doing that. and as a business owner, I've learned that's not always the best way to go. And with your team, if every time they do something wrong that upsets you, like, I don't know, like I had someone today send out one of my patients, the wrong skincare product. They wanted one product and they sent them another product, you know, and I was like, why, why did you send the wrong product?And, you know, they said, oh, they were next to each other. And I think, you know, the, the old marina and the way that had been brought up and what I'd always believed to be correct. would have really wanted to talk about that and explore it and understand it and be like, but how is that an answer to sell me that because they were next to each other?If someone's ordered hydrate lip oil, you send them, hydrate lip oil, why would you send them plumpbut what I have learned, being a boss. Is it's not my place to then have that conversation. it's just my place to listen and accept and say, okay, and that's it.Shut up. Okay. And that's such a journey for me. because it went against my essence of just like really explaining how I feel. and to the point of like, then when you see the,person later on and, you know, in the staff room and they say, Oh, I'm really sorry about that. skincare thing. just smiling at them genuinely back and saying, okay, maybe how I was feeling, but I've had to learn this mass suppression of emotion opinions. So just, obviously it's important to take note of everything that's going on around you. I'll make notes understand what's happening with my team and bring it up at the right time in the correct way. But what's not correct is like my life has been up until now dealing with friends and colleagues that you can just be quite open about how you're feeling, about what's happening Michael: at the time. Interesting. So then how do you know when to bring it up in the right time in the right way, especially like that scenario? Manrina: Yeah, so we have meetings, scheduled meetings. with everyone, right? So I have a daily huddle, definitely a group environment. I bring things up in a group environment as team learning for everyone, not using a specific person as an example, but doing a reminder saying, Hey, we're all going to have a this morning. what product is this? What does this product do? Let's do a spot test. Does everyone know what's going on here? we have weekly meetings, which are designed to go through these things. which be a more appropriate place to do the spot skin care test. We have monthly practice meetings. we have monthly reviews for new team members and three monthly, reviews for team members who have been with us for longer. do it monthly for three months and then it moves on to three monthly and eventually six monthly. I also have, like, different team members, with my practice manager, for example, I have a weekly meeting. if she does something that I can make a note and in the weekly meeting, if I don't want to make a big deal out about it, then in the weekly meeting, when we're having a one on one, I can say, Hey, by the way, this happened this week. And that's made me feel a certain way. And is everything okay? And I guess it's also that it's being like, is everything okay? Rather than getting upset with someone and saying, I don't want to say it, but like, are you stupid? You're just going to be like, is everything okay? Well, you know, is there a reason why you felt like, did this happened or these mistakes happen this week?Is there something that I can support you in? so it's a whole like reframe you think when you're open to practice, everyone might think they're going to be the boss and they're going to tell everyone what to do, but I think it's almost the opposite. It's easier to be the boss when you're an associate, Whereas as a boss, to actually keep a happy team, you need just very calmly, Go through anything that goes wrong then put actions in place to make sure it doesn't happen again and obviously know everything down.So rather than acting on it immediately, make a note of it and then decide the appropriate action to take, the correct time to have that discussion. it's not necessarily something that you have immediately. Michael: interesting. So then it's almost like as if. Shutting up is part of the calming down process, could you think of something in that moment to, you know, I just need to be nicer, but I'm going to tell it to you straight. Yeah, Manrina: when like the skincare thing happened today, then I responded and said, Oh, okay. That's unfortunate that you're not familiar with our, with our sentence. read about them and watch all the videos. if you could do that for me, then when I see you next week, I'll schedule a time for me to go through that with you and test you on them. So this doesn't happen again. Could you please send an apology message to the person you sent the wrong skincare to? Arrange when you want to be sent out, just to let you know the cost of the skincare will be deducted from your wages. So that was my immediate response. Which was quite measured and, fair, with all the points for what needs to be done. there's nothing emotional in that.It's just very fact. This happened. This is what we're going to do about it, to make sure it doesn't happen again. And this is how we're going to fix what's happened right now. and these are the actions I'm taking because you've done something wrong. Michael: How do they react? Manrina: They said, okay, I, um, yeah, I was going to say you should deduct it for my wages as well. And yeah, sorry again. Michael: Oh, okay. Interesting. So then how did this come out to be Minrina? Like, how did you realize I probably should start shutting up more? Manrina: I think it was really early on. I had a nurse and He gave pounds worth of Botox. To the lab guy, like the lab guy came to collect lab work and he picked the lab work out of the fridge and picked up a bag of Botox as well.And gave the lab guy my lab work and 500 worth of Botox, which is a prescription medication and it's useless once it's kept out of the fridge. So couldn't even be returned. and then the lab called and said, Oh, you've given us this bag of Botox. And I think at the time I was so shocked like, you know, early boss days.And I'm just like that's incompetent. I feel like that's incompetent behavior. What do you think about it? And then he was like oh yeah, I made a mistake, but you can't call me. incompetent. That's not allowed. then I, you know, asked my, my HR and they were like, yeah, youcan't tell someone that they've done something wrong.Like say that this is what you are. You can only say to them, do you think that was competent? Do you think that was competent behavior? And so I was like, Oh, it's so interesting. Like in normal life, normal conversations up until now it's just been a conversation that you'd have about, this is what you are in my opinion, but you're not allowed to have that opinion as a boss.You have to ask what their opinion is. Michael: Okay. I like that. Interesting. Yeah, no, it's good. So then in the moment of you trying to create this relationships with your team whether it's like, Hey guys, we're a team or we're more than a team, we're friends, right. or we're a family or anything like that.Where's the line to where you're like, Hey, for example, you're really close with the team member and you're like, Hey, you know, you know me, right. you've seen my children and everything. But then you. Decide to be like, Oh, I didn't know that offended you me calling you incompetent. I apologize. Right. But then it kind of,creates a riff there or something like that. So where's the line for that for you? Manrina: I don't have an issue now. We're just talking to everyone very calmly. And I feel like as long as I'm telling them all very calmly and not in a bullying like, This is incompetent.That's, you know, I would never, I wouldn't say it like that. Anything they do now. Oh no. Did you give the Botox? how do you feel about having done that? what do you think we could do to make sure it doesn't happen again? It's almost quite maternal. It's almost like a family.or maybe it's like a really nice mom, rather than a mom that shouts at people and says, are you stupid? It's a really nice. Oh, okay. This happened. What should we do about it? What can we put in place to make sure it doesn't happen again? But also I make a note of it. I've got a folder where I make a note about all these things with the date and what happened with each team member.So if we see a pattern and it's recurring, then I've got, series of evidence. And obviously if it's recurring issues, then need to do something more. always calm now. passionate response to anything is gone.Everything's like, Oh, Michael: You ask questions right to your response. You're like, oh, why'd you do that? What were you thinking right in that moment? Manrina: anything, I'd just be like, why do you think that happened?What do you think we could do to stop it happening again? Michael: Yeah, no, that's interesting. So then with that being said, what are some exercises you're doing to remind yourself, especially in the heat of the moment where you're like, what the heck? What are the. Exercises that you're doing to remind yourself to shut up or be calm.Manrina: Yeah. So when um, feel myself having an emotional reaction that's not positive. So it's fine when I'm excited when things happen, then it's all good and let's celebrate. If something happens and I can feel it inside me that I'm like, Oh, that makes me want to make that noise. Take a deep breath in.Then I know that's when I need to shut up. So as soon as I feel that something goes off in my brain, it says, shut up, because you're feeling an emotion and better to respond to this when you don't, and there's no rush to respond to anything. So just take it in and say, okay. And then work out how you want to respond to it once that, it's calmed down.Michael: You started doing this like a couple of weeks ago or? Manrina: a progressive. So my clinic opened just over two years ago and it's been a progressive change, but it's something that I was only conscious that I started doing when I sent it to someone this week.I said, Oh yeah, when things happen, then I just don't say anything because it's just easier that way. And then I just deal with it when it's the right time. And then I was like, Oh, I didn't even realize I started doing that. That's what I do. I don't respond anymore. And I've always been, I've always been that person that you're, you know, how I'm feeling at all times.If I get upset about something, I'll tell you I'm upset about it. And then, you know, five minutes later it was done and it's gone and we've cleared it. But I don't tell you I'm upset anymore. Michael: That's so funny. No, that's awesome. Thank you so much for that advice. We appreciate it. And we appreciate your time.And if anyone has further questions, you can definitely find her on the Dental Marketer Society, Facebook group, or where can they reach out to you directly? Manrina: On my Instagram is a really popular way to do that. It's Dr. Manrina Road, D R my name, Manrina Road. I manage my own account.So that's a good way to reach out. Michael: Nice. Awesome. So that's going to be in the show notes below. I'm Marina. Thank you so much for being with me on this Monday morning episode. Manrina: Michael.

(6:25) Bible Study: GAL 5:1-6 Father talks about Circumcision's meaning for Jews LK 11:37-41 What does it mean to be clean? Father explains (21:09) Break 1 (23:42) Letters: Freely you give freely you receive; Father explains what this means. Can you sing songs during the Sabbath meal? What does it mean that John the Baptist is the least in the kingdom of heaven? Father answers these and more. (35:40) Break 2 (36:15) Word of the Day: Foolish (37:51) Phones: Joanna - Women will be saved by childbirth - what does this really mean Nathaniel - The sspx people - are their confirmations are valid? Michael - You say acts was written by Luke but I was taught differently and I disagree. I think it was written by different apostles and compiled together

Michael Margolis, UX Research Partner at Google Ventures, breaks down the Bullseye Customer Sprint methodology and how it helps startups quickly identify what to build and who to target. Learn how to use the “5 and 3 in 1 formula”—five bullseye customers, three prototypes, in one day—to accelerate learning and de-risk product decision-making.Gain practical strategies for streamlining customer discovery so you can build the right products, faster. Michael shares how to define your bullseye customers, prioritize the key questions to focus on, and avoid common pitfalls in early product development.About Michael: Michael Margolis joined Google Ventures in 2010 as the venture industry's first UX research partner. With over 30 years of experience, he's conducted 300 research sprints with GV portfolio companies across diverse sectors. His work has helped hundreds of companies boost conversions, test new concepts, streamline workflows, and define bullseye customers. Michael joined Google as a staff user experience researcher, where he conducted research for Gmail, led the UX research team for Google Apps, and managed Google's UX team in Seattle. Before Google, he spearheaded user research at Walmart.com and produced educational software at Electronic Arts. Michael earned his bachelor's and master's degrees in anthropology from Stanford University and is the author of Learn More Faster.Connect with Michael:You can follow Michael on LinkedIn or check out his articles on Medium.Resources: Learn More Faster by Michael MargolisConduct stellar user research even faster by Michael MargolisResearch Practice by Gregg BernsteinDisco Conf 2024, the global research and discovery conference by MazeUnpacking User Interviews: Turning Conversations into Insight by Maze Follow Maze on Social Media:X: @mazedesignHQInstagram: @mazedesignHQLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mazedesignTo get notified when new episodes air, subscribe at maze.co/podcast.See you next time!

 Patrick in this hour talks about the dangers of Andrew Tate and how to respond to Catholic Guilt and missing mass. Patrick shares a story about how Pro-Life Across America billboards are being soft-canceled by the Billboard company  as the ad rates were raised (0:39) https://www.ncregister.com/news/prolife-across-america-billboards-canceled 10:09-Patrick shares a story about plagiarism from a hero of the left (6:20) https://freebeacon.com/campus/robin-diangelo-plagiarized-minority-scholars-complaint-alleges/ Grizzy shares a story about how couples have left after Engaged Encounter. (11:10) Lou-I really appreciate what you do. I want to talk about the idea of speaking the truth as we need to be unafraid to speak the truth (13:57) Elsa- I had to leave a family gather last weekend to go to Mass. I was told that God wouldn't mind if I missed Mass and it was just Catholic guilt. How do I respond to that? (19:23) Tracy- My teen has watched a podcaster Andrew Tate, online that are totally against the Catholic faith. How do I talk with my son about that? (26:18) Book Recommendation, Legacy: A Handbook for Fathers : https://dadsorg.store/legacy-a-handbook-for-fathers-paperback/ Book Recommendation, Dogma of Hell: https://tanbooks.com/products/books/the-dogma-of-hell-illustrated-by-facts-taken-from-profane-and-sacred-history/ Terry- A follow up on girl exposed to porn, shouldn't the parents of this girl be contacting the parents and let them know their daughter is sharing pornography to others? (36:37) Michael-You have Andrew Tate all wrong (40:46) Billy on Andrew Tate- he made his money by being an online pimp (48:08)

Could adding sleep apnea services to your practice be a life saver for patients? In this episode, we've brought on Dr. Dar Radfar to uncover why dentists are uniquely positioned to identify and treat sleep apnea, a commonly overlooked yet critical health concern. By breaking down how dentists can implement sleep apnea treatments into their practice using oral appliances, Dr. Radfar emphasizes the ethical responsibility and the immense health benefits this can afford to patients. Throughout our conversation, the importance of a systematic approach and patient education shines as a key takeaway, with Dar weaving in anecdotal insights from his personal experience in coaching and seminars.The episode delivers profound insights not only into the moral imperatives but also sheds light on the practicalities and financial benefits of adopting sleep apnea treatments. Dr. Radfar's recounting of his harrowing personal story about a car accident vividly illustrates the potential lifesaving impacts of proper sleep apnea diagnosis. His advice is clear and actionable, ending on a motivating note urging dentists to invest in ongoing education and practical implementation to make a real difference in their patients' lives.What You'll Learn in This Episode:Why dentists play a pivotal role in diagnosing and treating sleep apnea.The ethical obligation and professional duties involved in sleep apnea treatment.Four steps for incorporating sleep apnea treatment systems in your dental practice.Financial benefits and improved patient care outcomes tied to sleep apnea interventions.Strategies for effective patient education and communicating the importance of treatments.Dr. Radfar's personal experience and its influence on his professional journey.Common obstacles and solutions for dental practices new to sleep apnea treatments.Techniques for further education and training in implementing these systems.Don't miss this episode – your approach to sleep apnea treatment could profoundly impact your practice and your patient's well-being!‍‍Sponsors:‍CareStack: Modern, Secure, Cloud-Based Dental Software for Growing Your Practice! With state-of-the-art features including Online Appointments, Integrated Payments, Text Reminders and more. Click the link here for a special offer: https://lp.carestack.org/thedentalmarketer‍You can reach out to Dr. Dar Radfar here:Website: https://radseminar.com/‍Mentions and Links: ‍Tools/Software:Weave‍Organizations:ADAAmerican Medical Association‍Education:University of Wisconsin‍Brands/Businesses:InvisalignDental Intel‍Products:CPAP Machine‍People:Michael JordanStephen CurryKobe BryantElijah Desmond‍If you want your questions answered on Monday Morning Episodes, ask me on these platforms:My Newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/The Dental Marketer Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2031814726927041‍Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)‍Michael: Hey Dar, so talk to us. What's one piece of advice you can give us this Monday morning? Dar: Alright, so if you're not doing sleep apnea treatment in your office, I think you're unethically treating your patients, or lack thereof. We look in the mouth as dentists and hygienists and dental assistants, and we are capable of identifying if someone has signs or patterns of sleep apnea or snoring issues. when I teach my courses on how to do sleep apnea implementation and screening and treatment and practices, people in the audience are shocked how many patients are walking in through the door. And as dentists, we see them two, three, three, four times a year. So it behooves us to be able to look in the mouth, look at the patient and go, Hey, Michael, do you sleep well at night?Anyone tell you that you snore, do you feel tired throughout the day? And it's really our job because there's only really three major treatments sleep and snoring. And that's a CPAP machine, which everybody loves, sarcastically speaking, and oral appliance that brings the jaw forward and couple of different kinds of surgery.Guess who can only do the oral appliance, the dentist. So we are the only ones that can actually treat a medical disease called sleep apnea. So, The a DA is pushing the screening to become mandatory, and I believe all dentists should definitely be doing this on a Monday morning. Michael: do you feel or practice owners aren't doing it?Dar: I think it's a lack of implementation of systems, worrying about where do I send this home sleep study can I do it? the answer is yes, you're obligated to do it. If a patient has diagnosis for sleep, there's one of the treatment modalities is an oral appliance as deemed by the American Medical Association for dentists to make.the hindrance here is the dentistry is easy to make the impression and the bite and the adjustments that I teach. It's super easy. It's as easy as doing sealants in dentistry. It's really the systems and the system is what do I do with the medical billing? have my own medical billing company that I refer to.never recommend anyone doing it in house unless that's all you're doing. And then you can have your team dedicated to that. But if you're busy doing dentistry, if staff is busy sending out dental insurance claims or remotely, there's dental billing companies. Now, why not have a medical billing company remotely do that?And at the end of the day, Mike, it's not just about medical billing. You can charge cash. We, as dentists charge cash for Invisalign, for ortho, for implants, for three, four, five, six, 7, 000 for these types of procedures. Why not 3, 000 for an oral appliance? Michael: You do seminars, right? Dar: Correct. Rad seminar. com. I have a list of all the seminars that I have, and I also have a coaching program. So when someone takes my full day course, that's not it. I teach them how to implement systems. We do weekly meetings 30 minutes a week. for total of six months to make sure that it's successful.Mike, the biggest thing here is we're saving lives 12 to 15 years off your life. If you have sleep apnea and you're not treated for it, 12 to 15 years. Five times higher risk of cancer of any kind. If you're not treated for sleep apnea, you know, a university of Wisconsin study reported a few years ago.So not only are you saving lives, but also the offices that I train about a quarter million dollars the first year to their practice, if they're open at least three days a week. that's a lot of good ROI and what we call R O L or return on life. Michael: I like that. So then, have you seen this, especially in your seminars or maybe just in general, Doctor goes, they get trained, they're hyped, they're excited to do this, and then it slowly starts dying down. The team's like, hey, it's slowing us down, we're not doing as great, we don't know what to do, right? And then it just ends there. And so that's the reason why they're saying, hey, we tried sleep apnea.We're trying it, but it just doesn't work in our community. Is that true? Dar: Yeah. since 2014 was my first course and when I used to do is just do courses then they would go home and on Monday they would try to implement. realistically, it was when we were doing follow ups with these doctors from the medical billing company and the home sleep testing coming to try to onboard them so they can refer home sleep tests to them do the medical billing for them, about 15 percent dentists would actually start doing this out of the.People who came to the course I believe without any arrogance, I have one of the best courses out there because it's real it's easy. It's implementation is easy. It's basically you come back on Monday and there's a patient that's upset and staff doesn't show the crown doesn't fit.So people get, bottled up with general dentistry stuff. And that's why I created the coaching program. and there's nothing out there like it. Michael: Really Dar: holds your hand after you do the instructional videos. Now you can do it on, your own. It's six hours of video for the doctor, 25 minutes of video for staff and hygienists to be able to say, okay, now I have the information.So now it's about implementation and just like any great athlete Michael Jordan or Steph Curry or Kobe Bryant had, coaches, even though they shot the ball. They still had coaches reminding them to take a thousand free throws every week. And it's the same thing, reminding you to do the screening, reminding you, this is the home sleep test.What have you discovered? What troubleshooting have you had when a patient says no to this or yes to this or has jaw problems or, or, any sort of other issues like dry mouth. How do you resolve for that when we're in the mouthpiece? So there's a lot of little things that are in the video, but we, kind of forget until we start playing the game push the doctors to play the game.When they see the outcomes coming and they get on I call it cruise control after six months, then they go month to month with me and I'm available for any more coaching on a monthly basis. Michael: Nice. Okay. So where do you see when it comes to implementation, especially with a sleep apnea, most drop the ball?Dar: the most drop ball is just basically being, let's call it not shy and opening your mouth. Elijah Desmond, my buddy and mastermind mentor. said to me one time, close mouths, don't get fed. So if you keep your mouth closed, you're not going to get, the response that you want and help the humans out there that are truly suffering from being able to sleep next to someone to snoring issues, to high blood pressure, to acid reflux, to cancer risks, to heart attacks, stroke, depression, anxiety, mental health connections.And so we are shy sometimes to, bring it up and say, Hey, see a little bit of scalloping on the side of the tongue shows maybe some thrusting of the tongue when you're sleeping at night, you sleep. Okay, Mike, you feel like you get enough air? You wake up feeling refreshed.Are you tired throughout the day? Or I see, you know, grinding of your lower front teeth. That's indicative of the jaw grinding forward at night when you sleep, that could mean that your breathing is altered and you're trying to do your own kind of CPR movement with your jaw, bringing your jaw forward, your teeth are grinding on the front.Can I help you with your sleep? That's it. the answer is either a yes or a no. we get rejected in dentistry and in life when we recommend other types of treatment modalities. And I kind of brush it off when it's okay. You don't want to do a crown. Okay. Half the cusp is fractured. no pain yet.Nine out of 10 may say yes. One says no, but people are really suffering energy levels being low to sleeping in other bedrooms. This is a different, Beast of practice. And so if we can actually just screen them properly, which is the number one thing, open your mouth and then know who do you refer to if they don't have a sleep study, which, talk about all that handed off to a home sleep testing company, no equipment to buy nothing like that.It's just know the knowledge and execute. And so I think that's the problem is just opening up the conversation because you think someone's complaining about their finances or their work and this, and you're too shy to bring it up because you don't want to scare your patients away. I there's a reason why I got into this, Mike.And I don't know if you know my story. I fell asleep with the wheel in 2009. I crashed my car into a tree, not knowing I had sleep apnea. I wasn't overweight. so if someone were to look in my mouth and say, Hey, Dar, how's your sleep? Are you feeling tired? I'd be like, yeah, you know what dentist?I actually am feeling a little bit more tired. Well, I can help you. Maybe you can do a home sleep test. You don't have to go to a lab anymore. And if I actually executed and said that I may have not had that accident. What if I hit somebody? 4 percent of crashes occur because people fall asleep at the wheel and it can happen to anyone, including our patients.So it behooves us to jump in and try to at least screen the patient to be able to see what's going on. Michael: So screening the patient is like the best way to not just, I guess for like lack of a better word, sell it, but at the same time to. Bring awareness to let them know to say like, Hey, we're not going to drop the ball here because Your mouth is showing these symptoms.Does your life reflect that and if they're like, you know what? Yeah, I am not sleeping Well, I'm not doing that. Now's the point where we do what we can just oh, let's do a Yeah, Dar: the screening is there, but also like when people are a part of my program we have emails ready to go that sends through the, software program, like dental Intel or we've, when they confirm their appointments, they also have weekly emails and say, did you know snoring can affect not only, your bed partner, but also your bed partner's life expectancy.The person who sleeps next to a snore is not sleeping well and waking up a bunch of times that's going to affect their overall health. Come in and see Dr. Rad for a complimentary consult. He now treats snoring and sleep apnea. Next email. congratulations Dr. Rad for finishing the course and being able to treat snoring and sleep apnea with an oral appliance.For those of you who have been tested and don't like your CPAP machine or haven't been home sleep tested at all, come in and have Dr. Rad do a complimentary consult for you. So educating your patients before they even come in. Through emails once every other week for once a week, giving them information like the five times high risk of cancer.Come on in, let's do an evaluation or bring it up at your next checkup appointment. These are ways to be able to touch your patients a lot of these patients have no idea that an oral appliance is a solution, let alone that you're capable of doing it. Michael: Have you seen this? People would say like, I'd rather snore a little bit more than have that big machine. Dar: Oh yeah, absolutely. It's like, I'm not going to wear that thing, but also Mike, think about it, you're single you're dating be adults for a minute.you get intimate and putting that mask on let alone traveling with that to go to your partner's. Home. It's so much easier to carry your mouthpiece with you to at least reduce the story, if not eliminate it depending on how severe, 80 percent of patients mild to moderate sleep apnea, which the mouthpiece works brilliantly for them.And even severe patients, we can get their scores down to a mild to moderate in most cases. And so, it's not for everyone, but CPAPs not for everyone. You know, it's a mild case, I have patients, I'm like why did the medical doctor even give you a CPAP when your apnea is so mild? And they come in mouthpiece, one shot, you put it in, they go home, they're like, Oh my God, this is so much easier than wearing the CPAP machine, travel purposes, camping on an airplane, hotels, keeping the machine clean.That's it. You've got nothing else. You've got the mouthpiece, you've got the CPAP and the surgery is very invasive. And you have to pretty much be very severe to end up having any sort of surgery called Inspire, which is a hypoglossal nerve stimulation device that's put onto your chest muscle there.And then there's also some rotor rooter of your throat called the triple UP where they remove the tonsils, the uvula. I mean, It's not easy for the surgical part as well. Michael: that's a good way to also educate the patient is like, Hey man, You want to go camping? so much, I guess we can talk about this, but any final pieces of advice that you'd like to give to our audience. Dar: first thing is, get educated, have the ammunition to understand what to look for when you look in the mouth and the medical history and then all of a sudden you see like these patients coming in with class five lesions near the gum line, the little or acid reflux and you see dentin exposure and it's It's not just dentistry now. It's, we need to see what the root cause is. And part of the root cause clenching and grinding of your teeth over 50 percent of people who grind their teeth is because they have a fight or flight response because they're not getting up oxygen. You open up the airway, their TMJ symptoms actually get better.And so educate yourself. Once you get educated and you understand how to do this, the rest is implementation. helped over 3000 dental offices. Now I'm open to help more just because if I can help one dentist and he or she can help dozens, if not hundreds of their patients we all come together, we sleep better.we're not as grumpy. We're more kind to each other in the mornings and throughout the day. And we have more energy for our loved ones. For working out, at our work, being more focused and alert. it's, our duty as dentists to be able to do this.And it also makes some good money too, if that's one of your motivating factor. Michael: Nice. Awesome. I appreciate your time. And if anyone has further questions, you can definitely find them on the Dental Marketer Society Facebook group, or where can they reach out to you directly? Dar: if you go to rad seminar dot com r a d seminar dot com there's a chat there that you can throw message and it comes directly to my cell phone.It also shows my virtual courses as well. If you want to do all the cart stuff, I also do webinars once a month. For the masses to come on just get some new information and updates. So I'd love to have you guys on, and then we'll do a call together once you send me a message and I can show everyone how to be able to do this in their own practice.whatever I do for the six months, I guarantee that the investment that the dentist puts in, they get it back. I've never had to give a full refund or any refund whatsoever to any dentists out there. That's how confident we are that. It works it's profitable.Michael: Thank you so much, Doc, for being with us. It's been a pleasure. And thank you for being with me on this Monday morning episode. Dar: Thank you guys.‍

As business owners, we often feel imposter syndrome or worry about our status. Have you ever wanted to elevate your image and be more relevant? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Michael Sartain, CEO of Men of Action Mentoring to talk about how to make high-status friends and attend VIP events. You'll Learn [03:27] How to Utilize Networking [19:03] Becoming High-Status Using Social Media [26:54] How to be Relevant [38:58] Social Media is Fake [53:21] Authenticity vs Effective Content Tweetables “You need to be the person who always solves problems for other people and ask for nothing in return.” “You're building a brand. Status is status.” “A lot of our beliefs that we're holding on to that are holding us back.” “You make millions of dollars from solving other people's problems, not by doing what you love.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Michael: Your ability to grow is based on your perceived status, your perceived trustworthiness, your perceived know how. Not your actual know how.  [00:00:11] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:30] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:10] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So I have an awesome guest today. I actually joined his program just for kicks. This is Michael Sartain. Michael, welcome to the DoorGrow show.  [00:01:22] Michael: Hey, what's going on, man? Hey, I gotta be honest with you. Two years ago, I didn't know what doors meant and then I started hanging out with Justin Waller and he's like, "yeah, man, I have 300 doors." [00:01:29] I was like, "bro, what are you talking about?" [00:01:31] And then he's like, now he's got 400 doors. And I was like, "oh, it's like all these different properties." And then my buddy Myron he's got 17 homes that he owns up in Connecticut. He told me about, and I didn't understand how this whole thing worked. And then the property management side of it, like "my company, we're like, we're buying properties because we want to use the depreciation. And we need someone to keep, you know, these places rented, blah, blah, blah." And then the property management, I don't know that much about it. So that's why I was really excited to come on here and check this out.  [00:01:57] Jason: Cool. Well, yeah. And I didn't know very much about like maintaining a presence. [00:02:03] Looking cool, like actually looking cool on social media instead of just trying to look cool. And and so I've learned some good things by being in your program. So let's get into a little bit of background about you for those that are like, who's this Michael guy? And maybe how you kind of got into entrepreneurism and I think that'd be relevant to anybody listening. [00:02:25] Michael: So I'm originally from East Dallas. I grew up on the good side of the tracks and went to high school on the bad side of the tracks. And graduated from my high school, barely like did anything. It was not a very good experience. And I got into UT Austin because I was in top 10 percent of my class. [00:02:39] Went there four years, studied astronomy and business and then got out of there. And then I ended up managing a nightclub for a while, for a couple of years because MCI Worldcom and Enron had gone out of business. So if you know, UT Austin, Enron was like a huge supply of jobs once you graduated you know, as a Longhorn. [00:02:56] Once they go out of business, none of us can find jobs. I ended up working at a strip club for like several years as a DJ. And this is the first point in my life where I'm like, "okay, there's something going on here. There's things that I've been taught growing up, but there's something different now." Of course, I want to preface this. [00:03:10] By no means am I saying that people who go to a strip club or people who work in a strip club are indicative of the median of society. They clearly aren't, clearly are not. What I am saying though is that you can see the extremes in society when you go to places like that and from those extremes, you can see overt reactions. [00:03:27] One of the things that I do in my course is I teach how people can network, get invited where the cool kids sit like that phenomenon of where the cool guys are and the not cool guys, the hot club versus the not club that the club people don't want to go to, or the party everyone's trying to get into. [00:03:42] What is it that causes that phenomenon of popularity and status? There has to be something that can explain it. And so what I've been trying to do for the last 15 years is use evolutionary studies in order to figure out a way in order to do that. And so a lot of times when you do that, you know, you can see subcommunication between a man and a woman and you don't really know what's going on. [00:04:02] They have the internal focus of what's going on, but when you see it in like a nightclub or a festival or someplace like that, you see very overt communication. And from that, you can learn a lot of cool stuff. It's like watching, you know, crows you know, pick at a carcass versus watching a giant white tiger go kill a gazelle. [00:04:18] Like that is overt examples of predation that you can see and be like, okay, this is how biology works. This is how natural selection works, et cetera. And I know for your audience, you're like, "where the fuck's he going with all this?" Yeah. The reason why, just to explain. I got fascinated. I did seven years in the military after 9 -11. [00:04:33] I joined and I flew a KC 135 as an instructor navigator. And then I was I did counterintelligence for about the last two years I was there. And then, so, in that time period, I learned how a very structured business could work and like how accountability works. Accountability and leadership, I learned very much during that time period. [00:04:49] But at that same time period, I was also going out a lot and I was like very interested to me in like, what is it that caused certain men to be phenomenally good with women and get a lot of people to show up to an event and then what caused other men to just not get it. And I always, I also noticed that there was a very small group of men that got it. [00:05:05] And then a very large group of men that didn't understand this concept whatsoever. So I became fascinated with that idea of 2011. I ended up retiring from the military and I ended up moving to Las Vegas and this is the first time when I started going out to some of these nightclubs and these venues here in Las Vegas. [00:05:19] And I meet a lot of real estate agents. I meet a lot of accountants. I meet plastic surgeons, doctors. And it was very clear to me like that some of them got it and some of them didn't get it. I threw a real estate event recently where we took a blue heron home. And then we had a charity event for animals. [00:05:33] And while we're there, I invited every single female influencer in the city to show up. Well, these, some of these girls were interested in getting into real estate, but I just want you to imagine it was just like a regular real estate event that you have, except you're doing it for animal rescue. [00:05:47] So now all these people who are in real estate, mortgage brokers, et cetera, property managers like yourself, they would show up to this beautiful three story house. It was catered. It was beautiful. And then every pretty girl in the city in Las Vegas who wasn't working that night showed up to this thing. [00:06:01] So now you're drinking champagne. There's three times as many girls as guys. Some of you guys are listening to this and you're like, "okay, now I understand. I'm starting to understand what he does." You're able to create these incredible environments and in doing so, just imagine, everyone... I try to teach networking through events. [00:06:17] That's basically how I try to teach networking through small events at your house or large events, you know, like a CES conference. I try to teach networking through those mechanisms. And then I try to show how evolution created humans throughout history. Dr. David Buss writes in his book the evolution of desire throughout history. [00:06:34] The men who have worked in groups and in tandem with one another always had access to more resources and always had access to more women. And so that's the reason why, you know, I teach these concepts. And so what happens is that blue Heron thing that we did, the guy who ran it, he's at the forefront and he goes, "I want to just thank you guys for coming out here and helping me, blah, blah, blah." [00:06:52] He had endeared so much goodwill with every mortgage broker, real estate agent. It was really crazy. All these other real estate agents wanted to train under him. People started sending him business. His business blew up. Another example I give, that's Jeremy Green's name. I have another example of my buddy, Mark Pearlberg, who's one of those also in my program. [00:07:09] Mark is an accountant. Mark started to see the way that I would use zoom calls and on the zoom calls, Mark would go on and show. How he understood accounting backwards and forwards better than everyone else who was listening, he showed himself to be a subject matter expert in the zoom calls. He was hosting in doing so, just imagine Jason, like, you know, I don't believe accounting is your specialty, but if you listen to accountant at first, it's interesting, but after like an hour and a half, you get to the realization, like, "this is interesting, but I don't want to do this." [00:07:37] And then at about the two hour mark, you're like, "This is interesting. I don't want to do this. How much do I have to pay you to do this?" And so because what we did and he started hosting a podcast and because he started hosting these zoom calls with other professionals, now he tells me, he's like, "I actually had to slow down the podcast because I can't handle all the business that I have. [00:07:55] There's not enough of me. In order for me to be able to do this." And he works from home. He just, an incredible lifestyle that he's created. So when we go back to what we're saying before, you know, I learned initially, "okay, what are the mechanisms that cause people to be cool or not cool, to be popular, not popular, to be low status or high status?" [00:08:13] I learned that when I was working in Austin, you know, nightclub, I learned that when I was in the U S military, like what good leadership and bad leadership was. And then I learned it in the last 13 years here living in Las Vegas. And I took all those lessons and I, from the last say, 25 years, and I put them into a course called the men of action course and try to concisely take this 25 years of knowledge and put it into one space so that everyone can learn how to do these kinds of things. [00:08:35] Now, here's where it might be confusing for some of your audience, the mechanisms that men use in order to show status with women in order to date them and the mechanisms that men and women use in order to pitch an idea or to sell a product are the same mechanisms. They are the same. This is difficult. A lot of people don't grasp this. if you guys ever want to see a great example of this, great book you should all read is Oren Klaff's book called pitch anything. Listen to some of the words he uses. Jason, you remember eliminate neediness. [00:09:06] Do you remember that? Eliminate neediness. Where does that come from? Where does that come from? It didn't come from self help. Eliminate neediness is a dating concept. Okay? Avoid beta behavior. Do you remember? Oren Klaff says this in his book. He goes, "avoid beta behavior." Where does that come from, Jason? [00:09:21] That is a dating concept. So where do these things come from? At the highest level Jordan Belfort, he calls it goal oriented communication. So goal oriented communication is, "will you go on a date with me?" Goal oriented communication is, "Ken, will you invest in my project?" Goal oriented communication is, "will you come work for me?" [00:09:36] Goal oriented communication. I'm doing this because this is like the apex of community of goal oriented communication. All these places meet at the apex, and that is the understanding of basically Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people, get people to talk about themselves. You can find common interests, figure out ways to break rapport, all these different things. [00:09:53] And like what I teach my clients, Jason, the number one thing I teach my clients when it comes to high stats networking is you need to be the person who always solves problems for other people and ask for nothing in return. A great example is, do you remember Harvey Keitel in the movie Pulp Fiction? [00:10:08] You remember he's the wolf? Do you remember Pulp Fiction? I haven't seen Pulp Fiction. Okay, so tonight you're going to watch Pulp Fiction. Every single other person watching this has watched Pulp Fiction. [00:10:17] Jason: I know, everybody else has watched it but me, so.  [00:10:19] Michael: There's a point, there's a point where they have to clean up a dead body and they have to call this guy named the wolf and he just, he fixes things. [00:10:25] He's a cleaner. The wolf shows up in his Acura NSX, it's Harvey Keitel and he just fixes things. He goes, "are you going to listen to me or do you want to go to jail?" And he does, he just fixes everything. That's what I become. I'm the guy who fixes things for other people. I have a bunch of friends. I help them find people for their sales team. Most of my friends have met their boyfriends or girlfriends through me. I help people find their employees. I'm the hub. I'm the hub of the social wheel. And that's what I teach you to do in my course. If you cannot replace your social circle, your girlfriend, or your job in 15 minutes, you don't have enough abundance and I need to teach you how to have more abundance. [00:10:56] And so how do you do that? There's just certain mechanisms that people who have an abundance mentality and understand networking have, and when they use those techniques, then they can have anything they want. They get into any door. So another example, Jason is like the guy who goes to the Tai Lopez conference or the Taylor Welch conference or goes to see Cole Gordon or goes to see Wes Watson or goes to see whoever. [00:11:17] The guy who is like, "Hey man, thank you for your time." The one who like goes and pays Patrick bed David for his counseling. And then there's the guy who Patrick Bet David who goes to see Patrick David for his counseling. And then Patrick David was like, "Hey man, can I come visit you and hang out? Come meet my wife. Let me take you out to dinner." Does that make sense? There's a mechanism you'll see, like with a lot of people have asked me this before. Why is it that, you know, other people are like paying to listen to Justin Waller speak, but like Justin Waller and I are like close friends? [00:11:42] Why is it that other people like buy Rollo's book, but Rollo is one of my best friends? Why is it like all these other people call me and I'm not trying to say this to brag, but the reason why I'm trying to say this is there's a status line that you get to where you're a customer, and then you're his friend. [00:11:56] How do you cross that status line? This is such a key for those of you who are like, trying to get into sales or trying to understand networking. It's just like, I'm paying this guy, like how much, like I'm paying Tony Robbins. I'm a customer. I'm customer. Now Tony's like sending me messages on my birthday. [00:12:09] What is that status line? Some people's like, "well, you just need to have more money." And I'm telling you that is not what the case is. That's definitely not what the case is.  [00:12:15] Jason: Who would want to connect with people that they're only connecting with you because of money? I mean, that'd be a really shitty reason to be connecting with somebody.  [00:12:22] Michael: In the beginning, you will. But after a while you learn, whenever I go up and talk to my favorite influencer, let's say I paid for his coaching program is my voice cracking or my eyes getting big is my vocal tonality changing because I see this person as high status. [00:12:38] Am I dressing too fancy to try to show off? Am I doing too much or am I just like just the normal dude? I am. Oren Klaff, one of my favorite YouTube content creators. I don't know if you are not Oren Klaff. I'm sorry, Orion Terriban. All right. His name is Psych Hacks. Well, I had him on my show a couple of days ago. [00:12:54] He kind of converges behavioral economics with evolutionary psychology. And he basically talks about the sexual marketplace as far as economics is concerned. Okay. Really great person. Have him on my show. Ask him a bunch of stuff during the show. One of the things I talk about is like, "Hey, Orion, I know that you do some sales stuff, some coaching stuff. If you want my help, I'll help you how to, you know, put out a low ticket offer, high ticket offer, how you can like buy back your time." he's like, "yeah, you know, I can't scale myself that much." I was like, "okay, so you're going to read buy back your time by Dan Martell." [00:13:21] And then I gave him a bunch of books, you know, that would probably help him. And then at the end, I was like, bro, anytime you want to call me and you ask me about any of this stuff, I'll help you. The guy who has the world, you guys look it up. The guy with the world record in the high jump on planet earth is a guy named Darius Clark. He went to Texas A& M. He's the leading scorer in slam ball. Have you ever seen slam ball, Jason? Remember the trampolines and the basketball, they go dunk on each other. Anyways, I bumped into Darius at a slam ball game. We started talking and I'm, and then Darius is like, "Hey man, I want to level up my social media." [00:13:50] And I'm like, "Darius, let me figure out ways that I can help you level up your social media." So it's like one guys are like a professional athlete. Another guy's an accountant. You might be saying like, "why is it you're able to do all these different things?" And the reason why is because these are evolutionary problems. [00:14:04] These are evolutionary challenges that all men we're looking for. There are three things that really differentiate men from women. Three massive things. There's more than three, but these are the three biggest ones. Jason here. Number one, this is the most obvious one. It's upper body strength. Men are about two standard deviations stronger than women as far as upper body strength, meaning the medium grip strength for a man it puts them in the top, you know, 98 percent and top 2 percent of women. Makes sense.  [00:14:27] Jason: Yeah. Which also throws off our balance is higher. Yeah.  [00:14:31] Michael: Correct. Also. Yeah. It also, there's a reason why some of the reasons why men live shorter lives is because they keep their weight up here around their waist. [00:14:37] Whereas women keep it below their hips. And that's really, it's further away from their heart. There's a couple other things according to that now that's the first thing. The second one is a variety of sexual partners. Men are again, two standard deviations. Yeah. Far more like meaning the median man is interested in more women than the other way around but puts them in the top 2%. [00:14:55] But the third one, and this was a really interesting one and I knew this one, but it was Tai Lopez I was at his house last Wednesday. And he was explaining this, do you know the main thing where women just do not care that much about at all? But men are obsessed with, you know what it is? It's in your title. [00:15:09] No, it's in your title.  [00:15:10] Jason: Let's see, friends, high status, what I don't know?  [00:15:13] Michael: Status. Women in general do not care as much about status as men do, meaning women don't kill each other over status as men have been doing for the last hundred thousand years. So in fact, Dr. Buss, women care about men having status. [00:15:26] Jason: Women care about men having status.  [00:15:28] Michael: Women care about the men that they're with having status, yes. Yeah, okay. Yes. I see. Meaning they care about status as an object to obtain, but not as a something for themselves. Or rather, if you've ever, if you've ever lived on a military base, it's one of the strangest things. [00:15:41] Whoever the base commander's wife is, she's like the leader of the wives. It's so weird. She did nothing. She didn't go to officer school. She didn't do shit, but because she's married to the 06, the base commander, whenever they have engagements, she is... it's so funny. Anybody who's been in the military, you know, this is true. [00:15:58] Whoever the base commander's wife is. She's all of a sudden like the leader of all the events, even though why? Because she's married to the base commander. That's the way it works. So men, women in general in gendered into themselves, don't care as much about status as men do men severely care about status far more than women do. [00:16:16] And so because of the, these concepts, that's why you'll see like with a lot of the stuff I'm saying when it comes to sales, this is for men and women, but when it comes to dating, women do not sit there and have to show their status in order to attract men. But the other way they do. Does that make sense? [00:16:29] Yeah. And that's why it's like an important differentiation to make. And that's one of the other things I teach in my course. Like when you also, when you're selling to men versus women, it's something that you need to understand. You don't necessarily need to sell to women based on status. Like how, "Hey Sherry, how'd you like those big shoulders to show off those muscles to get those guys?" No, they don't. It's that's a status thing shoulder to waist ratio is like a male strength machismo testosterone status thing that women just aren't as interested in, you know, so there's just interesting concepts like that. [00:16:59] This divergence innate differences between men and women and where do we find these differences? We find them in evolutionary studies.  [00:17:05] Jason: So I think it's really interesting what you talked about earlier. You mentioned like this gravitation towards basically what works, right. And we see this everywhere. [00:17:14] Like I've been in lots of different programs. I've worked with lots of different mentors, coaches, read lots of different books and I'm noticing more and more I evolve as a human being. I'm noticing more and more parallels between the best ideas. Like I just read a book on kids. It was like how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk. And it's probably one of the best communication books I've ever read. Like anybody could learn from reading this book because to some degree, we're all little kids in bigger. [00:17:44] Michael: Even without kids.  [00:17:45] Jason: And also I was like, this is brilliant, like self talk like psychology even in this book. [00:17:51] And I'm like, this could be applied to so many different things. And it talks about empathetic, like being empathetic in your communication. I'm like, this is brilliant. This will work so effectively for sales or for anything. And people think, "oh, it's for kids." Right. And so what works works. [00:18:05] And I read another book, something about relationships by David B. Wolfe. It was a really good book, and this was for grownups, but there were so many parallels between these things. And you had mentioned also with dating and you know, for example, sales really, there's so many parallels between going out and trying to get clients and trying to get dates. [00:18:27] Michael: The higher you go, they're not parallels. They're exactly the same. When you get to the top, they're exactly like what I'm saying is when you get to the top, meaning like Hugh Hefner, like when you're at the top and then you just see, it's just a total presentation and it's nothing but just showing status. [00:18:42] Oh, it's the same thing. It's the same. I bought a Tesla that like Playboy is a brand. Tesla is a brand. You start to see they're doing the same thing to your brain.  [00:18:51] Jason: So for the business owners, listening to this, who are not trying to be Hugh Hefner. Right. They're not, and maybe they're married like me and they're not like trying to get women, but they do want to increase their sales. [00:19:03] They do want to increase their status and they want to figure out how to attract more business. What are maybe some of the things that they could do to be more attractive to the real estate investors that they're trying to get as clients?  [00:19:18] Michael: Yeah, I will tell you the first thing is you need to be a way more cognizant of how you are perceived socially and for a lot of people, one of the things you have to understand is the more things become digital and the more your image can be spread across social media platforms, the less your actual merit of your business matters and the more the perception of your business matters. [00:19:40] Jason: Yeah. How do they get an accurate view of how they're perceived?  [00:19:46] Michael: You could ask other people. I mean, generally the market is going to tell you, right? What is the price of of a commodity? The market's going to end up telling you right. In a free market economy, but it's like when you make social media content, you need to make them the content to market your business in a sexy, fun way that catches people's attention, but it doesn't have to be extremely representative. And I know this is really hard for a lot of people to do because they're like, "no, I'm just going to be myself and make content that feels organic." And I'm just telling you that doesn't work. [00:20:14] I don't care what Gary Vanderchuck told you. That is not the way the world works. Everyone else is stunting. Everyone is using FaceApp and Facetune. All these other people are just showing images and pictures of the best parts of their life. I post on social media all the time. I did not post anything about me feeding my cats this morning. [00:20:30] Like, the people want to see the cool stuff. That's just generally the way it is. So, you're, the way you are perceived on social media again, that's what we, you know, Men of Action, our group, is when you're in a community that gives you accountability and feedback to let you know, hey man, this is not a good post or this is a good post. [00:20:45] When we are on Instagram specifically instagram trades, a currency and that currency is called status. That's all Instagram is. Facebook is not like that. By the way, you guys will notice for those of you do any kind of marketing, Facebook is going to work really well for your 38- 40 year old audience and older. [00:21:01] And Instagram is going to work for your audience below 38 to maybe 28 and then maybe to 25 and below 25, it's going to be TikTok. And you'll notice, depending on which audience you're trying to get to, that's where you're going to see the most prevalence on those different platforms. Also, you're also going to see the most politically progressive of those platforms will be TikTok and the most politically conservative all those platforms will be like Twitter or X. So you, these are kind of the things that you have to learn. What you need out there is a perception that people have of your business and you have it as an entrepreneur. So you need to be trustworthy. You need to seem like, you know, more than everyone else, like you're a subject matter expert and you need to seem extremely motivated. [00:21:40] And in doing so as well, when you show images of your business and you personally, you need to show relevancy, competency, access to scarce resources, and social proof. Those are the things that will help. So what I mean by social proof? Other people in the industry following you on Instagram is a great way to almost look like a testimonial or maybe they leave comments. [00:21:59] That's a great way to show social proof, relevancy. Are you trying to use banner ads from 25 years ago? Or you're like, "Well, I'm still using email blasts." Okay. If I'm talking to a guy in real estate and he's telling me about email blasts, I know he's not relevant anymore. If I'm sitting there talking to stuff, if that's all he's talking about, right? [00:22:17] If he's sitting there being like, you know, he doesn't use Instagram, but he's got an SEO guy. I'm like, okay, he's not relevant anymore. He doesn't know. He hasn't changed things. But when I talked to a guy and he's like, "yeah, what I did was I started a podcast and in my podcast, I do 20 minute interviews with different people using restream. And then I have a guy come through and make clips and then I have, and then the best clips I end up promoting those clips on Instagram or using meta. Facebook Ad manager, meta ad manager, and in doing so, then I make the best ones and I turn them into advertisements and I put a CTA at the end." I'm like, okay, that guy's relevant, that guy gets it. [00:22:49] Jason: Then we're relevant here at DoorGrow.  [00:22:51] Michael: What you're doing is extremely relevant.  [00:22:52] Jason: If they have an AOL email address, they're like, "what's your email?" [00:22:56] Michael: That's exactly, it's not relevant.  [00:22:57] "It's aol.Com." [00:22:58] "I have a Facebook, but I don't have an Instagram." You're just not relevant. Like I can tell you're not relevant. When people are like, "well, my audience isn't on Instagram." It's like, it doesn't matter if your audience is on Instagram, you're trying to grow your audience. And by the way, the market will tell you what it wants. And every day, I'm sorry for those of you who don't want to hear this. Every day, each one of these platforms becomes slightly less relevant. Okay? [00:23:19] TikTok is on its uprise right now. Instagram is becoming less relevant because of TikTok, Rumble, YouTube, and Facebook to a certain audience is also already completely irrelevant. You'll see women below a certain age do not have a Facebook, but they do have an Instagram. [00:23:32] So the answer is to have all of them. All of you should have, you should be making 30 to 90 second content, the up and down type of content. Not landscape of profile content. You should be making that and it should be going on Snapchat. It should be going on X. It should be going on YouTube. It should be YouTube shorts, TikToks, and Facebook and Instagram reels. [00:23:50] It should be going at all those different places. You can use HubSpot or some other platform in order to post that content. And the content doesn't just have to be clips that go viral from podcasts. You can do man on the street videos. And here's a big one. All of you can do this. You can do reaction videos. [00:24:04] All of you can do reaction videos. They're so easy to do. And by the way, you don't even have to like, you're just like, "Michael, I don't know how to use OBS and I don't know how to do a reaction video." All you have to do is sit like I'm sitting right now. I'm in my den. You know, obviously I put some soundproofing behind me, but I'm in my den, I got a big ol ring light in front of me, and somebody comes up to me and goes, "Michael, what do you think about the Trump assassination attempt?" [00:24:23] Or "Michael, what do you think about, you know, Kamala Harris or whatever?" And I'm like, and I just turn my camera like this, like I'm talking, "Man, I'll tell you what I'm thinking. I'm thinking, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And you just say, and as soon as people watch the video and they're like, "This guy's about to tell me what he's thinking." [00:24:35] Then everyone will watch. And then some of you are listening right now and you're like, "I'm just a property manager. I don't want to talk about politics. Really go watch Ryan Pineda. Go watch Bradley, go watch Codie Sanchez, go watch Tom Bill. You go watch any of these guys who are crushing it in their fields. [00:24:51] They give their opinions on everything. Did you guys hear Alex Hormozi now talks about dating? What? Yeah. You're building a brand. Status is status. Like nobody cares. This is the other thing, Jason, a lot of your clients, and this is something I've talked to you about, and everyone in my program hears me talk about this ad nauseum. [00:25:08] Is the concept of like, I'm afraid that I'm going to post the wrong thing and nobody holds you accountable for anything you have to say, like, I was just looking at a video of Kamala Harris at a P Diddy party, walking around with Montel Jordan. No one seems to care that ever happened. No one cares about Joe Biden talking about, "I don't want to send my kids to school with the monkeys." [00:25:26] Nobody cares about it. No one cares. Like you said, like Donald Trump had sex with a porn star while his wife was pregnant and they brought it up during the debates and no one cares. Literally one of the most popular movies of all time The wolf of wall street is a about a man who did 15 months in prison for securities fraud, punched his wife in the stomach, kidnapped his own kid, did quaaludes and slept with prostitutes, and then afterwards, he is one of the top sales trainers in the world today. But you guys think anyone cares. Caitlyn Jenner runs over someone, kills them, and then four months later is named woman of the year. But you're like, "Michael, I'm a property manager. What if I post the wrong thing?" Here's another thing, Jason, and this is a poor reflection on humanity, but it's absolutely true. [00:26:09] If you get popular enough, they will forgive you for anything. And if you don't believe me right before OJ died, I had a conversation with him and they had offered him millions of dollars to do a fantasy football podcast, and I was like, OJ, what about those people you stabbed 56 times? Nobody cares. So many of you are watching this right now and you're like, you have 400 followers on Instagram and you're like so worried about posting the wrong thing, bro. [00:26:32] You don't have 400 followers on Instagram. You have four followers on Instagram and one of them's your mom. No one cares what you're doing. Most of you on social media are irrelevant and because you're irrelevant on social media, in reality, you're invisible. Listening to this, when you ask me what the advice is, your job is to become visible. [00:26:49] Some of you will be offended by what I say and the rest of you will be successful. You've got to decide which one you want to be.  [00:26:54] Jason: So I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second here, right? A lot of property managers, they think "I'm going to go start posting about property management. And maybe I'll get some investors that want to like work with me." [00:27:06] And so they start posting property management with this false assumption that people really care about property management, right? And so the analogy I'll usually share with property managers is I'll say, "how many plumbers are you following on social media?" And they'll say, "none." [00:27:23] "Why?" I said, "they want your business. Why aren't you following them?" And so there's this false reality that these social media marketers will sell to property managers. They're like wasting their time. And some of them spend a lot of money and time with these social media companies, wasting time promoting their property management business on social media, when nobody gives a shit about property management, even their clients don't wake up in the morning and go, "man, I'm thinking about property management." [00:27:50] Jason, what should they be doing instead?  [00:27:52] Michael: Yes. Jason you saying that just got me. I want someone who's watching this to do this and then tag me in the video when you do it. Jason, as a property manager, do you ever have nightmare tenants?  [00:28:03] Jason: So to be clear for those listening...  [00:28:05] Michael: yeah,  [00:28:06] Jason: I'm not managing properties. I'm coaching property management business owners, but they would say, "yes," they have nightmare tenants. All the time.  [00:28:12] Michael: Do you ever have nightmare vendors? Like guys who come like when I say vendor, what I mean is the plumber, the carpenter, the guy who comes...  [00:28:18] Jason: Yes, they have problems with vendors constantly, they have nightmare owners. [00:28:21] They're managing properties.  [00:28:22] Michael: What about, well, I wouldn't do nightmare owners cause you're trying to get business. I wouldn't talk about nightmare owners. What I would talk about is. I would start off a clip just like this. "I had a nightmare tenant. This guy was destroying," and then it would just show pictures. [00:28:34] "This guy was destroying everything in the place. I swear. He didn't know how to, he couldn't aim and hit the toilet. He has just destroyed the place. And this is what I did to fix it. And here's three tips for you to deal with a nightmare tenant." Viral. Yeah. Viral. Not only are you viral. Everyone's coming to you. [00:28:52] It's like, "man, I don't want a nightmare tenant. I just bought this two bedroom, two bathroom. I don't want a nightmare tenant. I'm going to go do what he does."  [00:28:59] Jason: I don't want it to be a meth house eviction. Like, yeah.  [00:29:02] Michael: Yes. Yeah. You know what i'm saying? Like that's what I would do. I would go over like what are these and because what you're going to do is what are the biggest fears of the people who are hiring property owners, my nightmare tenant, my tenant who doesn't pay. Like those kind of things, and I would make content. What are the three steps that I did to do with the five tips that a lot of people's in this place don't do right? I would make content like that. And you could do opus there's these ai software apps that'll basically take the clip and then they'll just inject B roll that fits whatever the words you're saying. [00:29:33] You don't have to hardly do any work when you do it and then all of a sudden it's like, "it was a nightmare. This guy's made my place look like a roach house. Roach infested." And then it'll actually pull up an image like a whatever, a stock Shutterstock image of a roach infested home, whatever. [00:29:47] Jason: Now they're using ai. Even I'm seeing a lot of AI images Just flashing. Yeah. Yeah. Or, yeah. Correct.  [00:29:51] Michael: It could actually illustrate using artificial intelligence, illustrate the image for you. You could actually do that. So you don't have run into any copyright issues. Right. Or any permission issues. [00:30:00] There's just so many ways to do this. But what are you doing? You're showing relevancy and competency. You know how to use Instagram. You know how to create a clip using artificial intelligence. You have good audio. You have good lighting. You're showing relevancy. You're showing competency. You're showing high intelligence. [00:30:15] You're showing high social status. And then in the comments, you're like "LMAO." Like people are laughing my ass off. "This happened to me." "Oh my God, Jason, same shit." "100 percent true." And now I have social status. I have all these things. Why? Because I made some content that was engaging about something that is incredibly unsexy, which is property management. [00:30:35] That's how you do it. What are those ultimate fears that your prospective clients have? And I would just do nothing but make content about that. I have a friend of mine, FedEx fearless. His name's Bismarck. And this guy, he goes, "these are three reasons why you are ugly." And I'm like, "what?" [00:30:48] And like, he really goes after people. "This is the reason why your girlfriend is cheating on you right now." And everyone just, I'm like, "what?" And I don't want to watch, but I'm like, I need to watch this video.  [00:30:57] Jason: What's going on there? Yeah.  [00:30:59] Michael: It's so great. It's so great. " No, Michael, you need to be authentic with your social..." no, you don't. You don't need to be authentic. You need to capture people's attention. You need to be attractive. Your primary job is to be attractive on social media. Now what happens is now you got them with the hook, "Here are the top three things that I do to deal with this horrible tenant that I have" And then when they come in the hook now throughout there you give those three, explanations But you also throw in a little piece of advice that shows just a little humble brag that shows "In my 27 years of property management, this is the thing that I've learned." [00:31:30] Okay, little humble brag. And at the end, it goes, "if you want to learn more, comment, the word guide below," or if you're on YouTube, you'd be like, "go down into the description and click the link. And then blah, blah, blah." And it just ends up right down your sales funnel, maybe to a low ticket offer, maybe an ebook that you wrote something like that. [00:31:45] And the next thing, you've 10xed profits. You've 10x revenue. You're selling a course on property management while writing a book on property management, while having a podcast on property management, while being a property manager, all of it at the same time. And then you got to hire a new accountant because you got too many write offs. [00:31:59] Like you don't have enough time to pay your taxes. You got to get too much money. That's it. That's how this works. And that's about what I just explained to you. It's just the difference between getting it and not getting it, being relevant and not being relevant. And so a lot of people, what they're, they listen to me and they always make me out to be the bad guy because cause what I do is I tell people, no one cares about you. And no one likes to hear that. They like to think that the rest of the world cares about property managers. But like you said, no one's following plumbers. Right. But if I was a plumber, I would do the same thing, "man, I walked into this house and this toilet had exploded and just have an image of it." [00:32:30] And it'd be like, "okay, I need to hear what this is." "And then a monster crawled out of the toilet." I'm just kidding. And like, I would just, that's what I would do just to keep people's attention.  [00:32:37] Jason: So for those listening, can we qualify you a little bit related to social media, because you've got a good following? [00:32:43] You've got a sizable business because people listening if they don't know who you are, I want them to recognize you're very qualified to talk about this. Not so humble brag about yourself for a second.  [00:32:55] Michael: I have a men of action. We have 1600 clients that have gone through there. [00:32:58] 200 video testimonials if you go on the school server. And also we have a free community a free school server. What's about 43-4,500 guys in there. You're welcome to message. One of the things that I've told people is that if I join a group and they tell me not to talk to the other people in the group, I know this is a scam. [00:33:12] You'll notice sometimes with MLMs, you'll see that. I implore you to talk to anyone, any client that's ever gone through my program and they will tell you how incredibly satisfied they were. Also you, Jason, I'm sure you've seen my course is extremely comprehensive. It's about 65 hours long. That doesn't even include the live calls. [00:33:29] And then also there's a book, there's a required book list that you have to read in order to go through the course.  [00:33:33] Jason: I'll tell you right now, like an eight figure business for you.  [00:33:36] Michael: Just today, we've done eight figures in total, but as of this month, this is the first month we'll recross the mark. [00:33:42] It was what? 833 a month or something like that. We cross that this month. So that's about, yeah. So we're doing about a little bit under eight figures in revenue per year.  [00:33:50] Jason: This is more than any property managers probably listened to my show. So just for perspective. Okay. Yeah. Got it.  [00:33:57] Michael: Yeah. I mean, because coaching is scalable. [00:34:00] That's the reason why. And like the other thing I want you guys understand is a lot of people got into real estate because they were trying to find a scalable way of making income and they're using you to make their lives scalable. So if you guys read, buy back your time by Dan Martell, they're paying you to buy back their time as real estate owners. [00:34:15] That's what their job is. And essentially you're going to eventually do the same thing. You're going to pay someone to buy back your time from them. So the main difference, and I'm sure many of you entrepreneurs already know this, but. When you start off in the workforce, you are trading your time for money. [00:34:28] You're working at Chick fil A or McDonald's and you're being paying an hourly salary later on. You're trading your money for time. I pay one guy. He comes into my house. He turns on my computer, he turns on my camera, he turns on my lights, he sits me down, and then he just starts yelling at me to talk about certain subjects, and I have no idea, I'm just like, drinking coffee, and I'm like, what up, and he goes, "what do you think about this?" And I'm like, "oh man, let me tell you something, and then they record it," and then it's just a reaction video, and I do nothing. [00:34:53] I pay to get my time back. I have several editors that live in Romania and Nigeria and all these, because I don't want to edit videos anymore. I used to be a video editor and a videographer. I don't want to do it anymore. I pay one place to do the live editing for my podcast. I don't want to do that anymore. [00:35:07] I pay to get my time back. For those of you who are considering hiring a personal assistant, once again, highly recommend Dan Martell's book, Buy Back Your Time. In the book, he talks about taking your yearly salary and divided by 8, 000. And that's what you pay the guy hourly. Take your yearly salary, how much you make in a year, your yearly income divided by 8, 000. [00:35:24] That's it. They go over the reason why, but it ends up becoming like a 40 hour work week. You end up paying him one, you pay him half of what one hourly wage for years. So if your time is worth a thousand dollars an hour, you might pay him 500 an hour to get certain things done for your life. And one of my favorite sayings in that book is something done 80 percent right is 100 percent awesome. [00:35:43] And like, it was one of the hardest things to give up. The guy who does my timestamps, that was really hard. I love doing timestamps because timestamps were giving me clips and those clips would go viral and the virality would make me money, but I had to give that up. And eventually you're going to give up all these processes. [00:35:57] Another thing I'll explain for you guys who are entrepreneurs, one of the greatest tools you will ever find is an app called loom. Look up loom. What loom is allows you to make videos, but the video it's like, it's showing the screen on your phone or it's showing the screen on your computer while they're listening to your voice and you send it to your person. [00:36:12] So like, for instance, I do mass invites for certain events that I do. So I'll go on loom and I'll have a guy, maybe he speaks you know, Farsi or maybe this guy speaks like his English. Isn't that great? What I'll do is I'll go through my invite slowly and I'll do it like for 30 minutes, I'll just do invites and I'll show so he can see what it looks like. [00:36:28] And then I send it to him and then he looks at it and he has no questions. And my invites are done like that. Loom is one of the greatest way of passing along SOPs to people and then using them in order to buy back your time. So understanding all these concepts, it makes you more relevant, makes you more competent. [00:36:43] It gives you higher status. It gives you more access. And these are the things that you're looking for. In any walk of life, but especially in something like property management and you guys also understand as property managers Your job isn't sexy So what you have to do is you have to show the sexy parts of your job, right? [00:36:57] When I my favorite one are accountants and dentists. They're not my friend my friends who are dentists who know what they're doing, they show the fucking horror job teeth, You know car accident, messed up teeth, meth addict, whatever, and then they get the teeth back to 100%. And like me, as someone who doesn't care that much about dentistry, I'm just like staring like, "Oh my God, that was incredible." [00:37:17] Yeah. what you do is you figure out people's primary driver emotion and their biggest fear. And then from those things, from the primary driver emotion and their biggest fear and from those things then you make your content attacking those primary driver emotions and those biggest fears, okay. And when you do so it doesn't make any difference if you're an accountant It doesn't make any difference if you're a property manager doesn't make any difference what it is that you sell people will watch and they will be obsessed. [00:37:42] My brother, he watches videos of horseshoes. They basically, you know, they shave off the end of the horse's hoof and then they put the shoes on. He said it's like the most relaxing thing in the world to watch. And I wouldn't even think about that, but why is it? It's like something we don't even think about that much, but it's pretty amazing. [00:37:56] Like when you see, it's like very relaxing to watch stuff like that. You can do stuff like that.  [00:38:00] Jason: There's a guy that's viral for just, he finds distressed houses. And he just cleans up their lawn and the sidewalk. He's like, "Hey, could I mow your lawn? And it's like relaxing to watch the transformation." [00:38:12] Yeah.  [00:38:12] Michael: Another one that's great was if you guys watch the early Ryan Pineda stuff, what was he doing? He was flipping couches. He would find crappy couches, clean them up, and then he would sell them again. And he made a living from flipping couches. There's just all these different things. And like the concept of it sounds so boring, but I want to watch someone do it. [00:38:28] Right. It was the one where you'd buy those storage units and then you'd see whatever's in this. Oh, I forgot what that was. It was pawn shop, pawn stars or something where the people would buy storage units and open up in there. And there's like, sometimes there'd be nothing in the storage unit. Sometimes there'd be like a dead body in there or some crazy shit. [00:38:41] Like they find like a skull and like all of a sudden. Bag full of money. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, you guys know the producers were putting that bag of money in there, right? Like that wasn't real. That wasn't real.  [00:38:52] Jason: Reality TV isn't real either. You like to say social media isn't real and that's okay or something. [00:38:58] Michael: So rule number four in men of action is social media is fake and I'm okay with that because the money's real. And the world isn't fair. And I'm okay with that.  [00:39:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:39:06] Michael: The world isn't fair and I'm okay with it. Rule number four in a, in social and of action is about acceptance. It's about accepting the world the way it is and never being a victim. [00:39:14] It's sure things are hard for you, but you're never a victim. You might be too short. English might not be your first language and you're having a hard time speaking it. You might be born poor. You might be born with some kind of ailment or disability that you feel like holds you back, but that's where you are. [00:39:27] You start from where you are. And then you create from there. Okay. You were saying something before about how you notice like all these books kind of converge in to the same place, three books that have nothing to do with each other, but it's the same concept. Ready? The power of now by Eckhart Tolle, the subtle art of not giving a fuck by Mark Manson and sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. [00:39:45] You're like, wait a second. It's all the same thing. It's all the same. It's all this. I get to choose how react. I get to tell myself stories that change my behavior. It's all three of these books that have nothing to do with each other end up being the same book, not exactly the same book, but similar books. [00:40:00] Because once you get to the highest levels of enlightenment, transcendence, goal oriented communication ends up being the same thing for everyone.  [00:40:07] Jason: There's a one of my favorite books is by Byron Katie called Loving What Is. And basically, she takes you through this process of just asking yourself these four sort of questions to challenge your current view of reality. [00:40:21] And it takes you out of this victim sort of view. It's very much like cognitive behavioral therapy, maybe, or something like this, right? Yes. Or CBT or something. But yeah, so asking this question, is this belief that I have actually true? And a lot of our beliefs that we're holding on to that are holding us back. [00:40:36] And like, if we're not getting results in life, it's because we currently have beliefs that are not working for us. And so, if you see people that things are working well for them, even though you think, like, somebody might be watching right now going, "Michael is completely full of shit. He's throwing out all these crazy stuff and he's, he worked at a strip club" and somebody's like, so against that or whatever. [00:40:56] They're like their own stumbling block and they're in their way and they won't pay attention to the truth or the things that you're sharing that are good because they're so stuck on everything in the universe having to look a certain way that they are not even open to receiving more, they're not willing to challenge their own thinking. [00:41:13] They're not going to progress. They're going to stay stuck.  [00:41:16] Michael: They identify more with their identity than they identify with success.  [00:41:20] Jason: Yeah. Good way of saying it. And I love how you talked about kind of these currencies. One of my mentors in the past was Alex Charfen. And he's from here in the Austin area as well. [00:41:30] And he was talking about time, energy, focus, cash, and effort. He calls the five currencies. And Hormozi went through Alex Charfen's like coaching with me. I met Layla and Alex in this. And one of the things that I then saw Alex talk about these currencies. But what I thought was interesting is Alex said the most significant of those five currencies in order to scale and grow your business is focus. [00:41:52] It's the most important to scale, grow a company. And then Dan Martell, I once saw him teach this framework that was, it was like about the power of one. He's like, "the most effective business is a business has one sales funnel, one product, one..." it was like all ones, like, And I see property managers, a lot of times they'll try and like start five different businesses. [00:42:14] They're like, I'm going to start a cleaning company, a maintenance company, like all these other things.because they're complimentary real estate brokerage. And then they wonder why none of them are growing because they lack focus. And so all these things kind of converge, making sure that we have focus. [00:42:28] You also mentioned Dan Martell, who I think is a brilliant entrepreneur, he generally was coaching like software companies, SAS companies to help them grow and scale, but his stuff's applicable to coaching businesses. I've noticed it's applicable to anything because the principles are valid. [00:42:44] And one of the things I've had my clients do to get them to that next level, to basically get their time back is to have them do a time study to where they become accountable for their time, which things are positive and which things are negative, like plus or minus, which things give them energy in life and which things take it away in their own business. [00:43:00] And I have them do this like usually once a quarter. And when I did my first time study, I realized I was doing like four hours of podcast production in a week. It all added up and I was like, holy shit. So then I just hired a company to do it. It was a no brainer to let that go because it was stupid at that point for me to hold on to that once I could see that challenge. [00:43:20] And you mentioned loom, awesome tool for like one of my favorite tools, like it, which is next level. It's like loom, but it's Wistia's video recorder. It lets you actually record the screen and yourself. And then after the recordings made. You can then have it mid recording. You can switch which parts are showing and have segues between the two. [00:43:42] And it's super fast. It's like super cool. But we use tools like that.  [00:43:46] Michael: Productivity. Yeah, definitely.  [00:43:47] Jason: Yeah. So, I love all these ideas for collapsing time. Michael has dropped several awesome tools, knowledge bombs, ideas for those that are listening and also how to leverage content social media wise. [00:43:59] So what you know, if we were to bring this full circle what would you say is the most important thing that maybe business owners or property managers could be doing to scale and grow their business?  [00:44:13] Michael: Right now? Again, one more time. It is: understand, your ability to grow is based on your perceived status, your perceived trustworthiness, your perceived know how. Not your actual know how. Like, I can tell you so many guys that I know that are real estate experts on YouTube. And then I have my friends of mine that are real estate agents. And they're like, "that guy doesn't know shit." And I'm like, "no, he's coaching the white belts." That's the why, the reason why he says the things that he says. [00:44:39] And they have a hard time dealing with it. So, understanding that concept. And then. You have to leave yourself. You have to subvert your own ego, go on places like TikTok or Instagram places you'd never think to go to, and then look at who's going viral, who's in your exact industry, and you're going to need to take pieces from what you see. [00:44:56] Like, what are the kinds of videos that do really well? And you're going to be able to find those very quickly. You can literally right now would go on Tik Tok and look up property management and you'll find a bunch of videos, like just pick the ones that go the most viral or a real estate, a podcast, and then pick the topics that go the most viral and just blatantly steal them, steal, blatantly steal everything. [00:45:19] You in the beginning, no creativity necessary, just steal. Okay, and you do that for a while and then you start to sort of get your footing And then you start to realize wait a second, I've been running ads and my ROAS per dollar my ads is x 1. 2 or 2. 0 or whatever but in organic my cost per lead is like nothing because my organic traffic, it costs me so much less to get a lead. [00:45:44] It's incredible. Then I go on someone else's podcast because my content is getting better and better. And then all of a sudden now, you know, Rich Summers and Ryan Pineda want me to come on their show to talk about, you know, maybe I'm on ice coffee hour or whatever, talking about real estate. [00:45:58] And then I get on bigger and bigger shows and now my cost per lead decreases even more because I just had this simple understanding that the way it works is my perceived status my perceived know how and my perceived trustworthiness to other people are the reasons why people will buy my product. Now you may already obviously everyone who's listened to this if you have any success in property management You already have your funnel is probably dealing with either word of mouth shaking hands, or it's dealing with some sort of paid advertisement, but I implore you try organic. Try to use organic and then organic meaning using Instagram posts or Facebook posts. [00:46:33] And then once you do that, try to take your best content and turn your best content in an advertisement and promote those, promote that content. That's something we've also been doing. And if you want examples on everything I just said, a great book, a great place to start is the 100 million offer series by Alex Hormozi. He goes over every single thing that I just talked about. It's absolutely fantastic. It's really great stuff. The difference is with my program, MOA, we're a little bit more bespoke for what it is exactly that you're doing. But we're mostly talk about networking. And then the other thing is, When you actually meet that person in person that you want to work with, do you come off as a fan boy? [00:47:06] Do you come off as too eager? Do you, does your body language show signs of neediness or signs of low status? Are these things that you can watch? And then how do you figure that out? You watch yourself on camera. Do you watch yourself on other people's podcasts? Because that's one of the things is like as social media grows and more people are exposed to more people, just remember like if you consider in the plasticine, you know, we live in hunter gatherer societies of 150 people and now we can legitimately have a hundred thousand friends on social media in that kind of situation because we're exposed to more people, we are more attuned to status, physical appearance, et cetera. And so now what happens is humans essentially become more shallow. [00:47:46] They become more attuned to other people's status and rightly or wrongly. Is it a negative commentary on humans? Yes, it probably is, but it's the world you live on. And if you want to get rich, you need to listen to what I'm saying. And if what I'm saying, offends you, get ready to stay poor. Like, I'm sorry. [00:48:01] If you guys are listening to this right now, and you're like, "No, social media is going to go away and we're going to go back to walking up to doors and do an email blast and buying banner ads." If that's what you think, go back to your AOL. com email and just keep believing that's the case. [00:48:16] It's all about the handshake. It's like, if that's what you believe, that's fine. But for the rest of you who are ready to understand that if you think things are bad, I got news for you. They're only going to get worse. Meaning people aren't going to put their phones down at dinner. People aren't going to take fewer photos. [00:48:30] People. I was reading something. It was like, like in one day, now more photos are taken in like an hour than were taken during the entire year of 1985 or something like that. It was like the amount of photographic and video data that's uploaded in one hour exceeds the total photographs taken in an entire year back in the 1980s. [00:48:49] Some absurd number like that. If you think things are going in one direction, things are getting faster. They're more virtual. They're more digital. Digital, they're going to be controlled by artificial intelligence and they're going to be more scalable. You need to get on that train. The train is leaving. [00:49:05] You need to get on the train. Now, if you don't want to get on the train, that's fine, but notice as the world passes you by and the rate at which it passes you by only increases every year. If you want to learn about that, read Ray Kurzweil series called the singularity is near, and you can see how he talks about the rate of change is increasing, and then the rate of change is also increasing. [00:49:24] Jason: Okay, so this is awesome stuff. So Michael one thing I want to point out for those that are listening. Because I think you've sold your Men of Action short a little bit. So I'm gonna, I want to say something about it because what I think is in, what people think is in there probably based on what you're saying is it's a bunch of social media stuff and it's like how to, maybe how t

Health anxiety is a common yet often misunderstood condition that can significantly impact one's quality of life. Whether it's worrying excessively about potential illnesses or constantly seeking reassurance about your health, the effects can be overwhelming. Understanding the nature of health anxiety and learning effective strategies to manage it can make a world of difference. In this article, we explore five essential things you need to know about health anxiety and offer practical tips for recovery, with expert insights from Michael Steer. 1. UNDERSTANDING HEALTH ANXIETY: WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT ISN'T Health anxiety is a term often misunderstood by many. It's not just about being overly concerned with your health or frequently looking up symptoms on Google. Health anxiety can be categorized into two main disorders: Illness Anxiety Disorder and Somatic Symptom Disorder. Illness Anxiety Disorder involves a preoccupation with health despite not having significant physical symptoms. On the other hand, Somatic Symptom Disorder includes severe and persistent physical symptoms that cause substantial distress. It's essential to understand these distinctions to recognize that health anxiety isn't simply a matter of being overly cautious or paranoid about one's health. Moreover, health anxiety can often intertwine with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD), involving obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors centered around health concerns.  2. NAVIGATING THE MEDICAL SYSTEM WITH HEALTH ANXIETY Dealing with health anxiety within the medical system can be particularly challenging. One of the critical aspects to remember is the importance of finding a healthcare provider who listens and validates your concerns. If you feel dismissed or unheard, it is perfectly acceptable to seek a second opinion or switch providers. Additionally, distinguishing between different types of symptoms can help manage health anxiety more effectively. Medical symptoms require immediate attention, such as severe chest pain or sudden numbness. Physical symptoms, like a sore back from yard work, are often benign and manageable with self-care. Psychological symptoms stem from anxiety and can include manifestations like tightness in the chest or dizziness. Understanding these differences can help reduce unnecessary panic and improve communication with healthcare providers. 3. TRUSTING THE RELIABILITY OF YOUR THOUGHTS A common challenge with health anxiety is differentiating between real medical issues and anxiety-driven thoughts. Think of your anxious thoughts as spam emails—they're real, but their content isn't always reliable. Health anxiety often triggers false alarms that feel urgent and terrifying. Learning to question these thoughts and not take them at face value is crucial. Techniques like cognitive diffusion can help change your relationship with these thoughts. For instance, if you've convinced yourself numerous times that you're having a stroke and it hasn't happened, the likelihood that your current fear is another false alarm is high. Questioning the reliability of these thoughts can help manage the overwhelming fear they generate. 4. THE ROLE OF COMPULSIONS AND SAFETY BEHAVIORS Health Anxiety Compulsions and safety behaviors, such as constantly checking symptoms or seeking reassurance, often exacerbate health anxiety. One significant trap is becoming inwardly focused, constantly monitoring your body for signs of illness. This behavior leads to a vicious cycle where anxiety increases symptoms, which in turn heightens anxiety. Shifting your focus outward and engaging in meaningful activities can help break this cycle. It's essential to become more outwardly focused, enjoying life and participating in activities that bring you joy and fulfillment. This shift can reduce the power of health anxiety over your life. 5. EMBRACING LIFE DESPITE HEALTH ANXIETY Health anxiety often steals the very things we're afraid to lose—time, relationships, and enjoyment of life. The constant preoccupation with health can make us miss out on living fully. Therefore, the goal isn't just to reduce anxiety but to reclaim your life. Engage in activities you love and focus on adding value to your life. This shift in focus is incredibly powerful and can help you live a more fulfilling life despite health anxiety. It's not just about feeling less anxious; it's about living more fully and enjoying the moments that matter most. CONCLUSION Health anxiety can be overwhelming, but with the right strategies, it's possible to regain control and live a fulfilling life. Michael Steer's book, "The Complete Guide to Overcoming Health Anxiety," is a fantastic resource for those seeking further support and information. Additionally, his website, overcominghealthanxiety.com, offers a wealth of resources, including a free virtual support group. Remember, while health anxiety can take a toll on your life, effective strategies and a focus on meaningful activities can help you reclaim your joy and well-being. TRANSCRIPT: Kimberley: [00:00:00] Welcome back, everybody. Today I have Michael Steer here talking about the five things you need to know about health anxiety and how to recover from it. So welcome, Michael. Michael: Thanks for me. I'm really excited to be here and talk a little bit about health Kimberley: Yes. It's actually a very, very requested topic. It there's always questions about it. So I think this is really, really wonderful that we're doing it. Okay. So first of all, what is health anxiety? Let's just do a little bit of a, you know, intro, uh, tell me what it is and then tell me what it isn't. Cause that's point number one. Michael: Absolutely. Yeah. So we'll jump into point number one, which is I kind of was breaking down if I could have people know five things about health anxiety, what would I want them to know? Or people that support people with health anxiety. And number one point that you're going to bring it up is the first thing that I would want [00:01:00] people to know is exactly what health anxiety is. I feel like health anxiety is one of those things where, you know, you see somebody on their phone looking up symptoms and everybody kind of knows, right? They're like, Oh, I've been there before, right? We all kind of know what health anxiety is, but sometimes we don't know exactly like what it looks like or even more so that there's actually treatment that people can get that actually works. Not medical treatment, but maybe psychological treatment. So, um, I break down health anxiety in a couple of different ways, which is one is that. if you actually have a medical condition, so if you were diagnosed with cancer or, you know, whatever that might be. Um, there can still be anxiety around those types of things, but that's not exactly what we would be calling health anxiety. Uh, you know, kind of in a professional community, that would be an adjustment, Kimberley: Yeah. Michael: a massive adjustment, right? It's like you get this scary diagnosis, you're trying to go undergo treatment, those types of things. So that's kind of one category. And then, We also have this other category, maybe [00:02:00] what we would love them to call health anxiety, which actually is kind of awkward, too, because there's really no such thing as health anxiety, like, oops. Um, but there are some categories under health anxiety that we would say, these are actually what we're talking about. One of them is what we call illness anxiety disorder. Um, the other one is what we call somatic symptom disorder. And, uh, these are kind of the two things that we would call health anxiety. Now, Illness Anxiety Disorder is really a very basic way to break that down, is a preoccupation with your health, but you don't have a lot of symptoms that go along with it. I mean, you might have some here or there, and it's like, Oh, one day, like maybe my vision is a little bit more blurry, or I got a kind of weird pain over here. But the, usually the symptoms kind of come and go pretty, pretty quickly. Um, now, Somatic Symptom Disorder is still the preoccupation with your health. But the one big difference that people run into is usually the symptoms are pretty severe. They're [00:03:00] pretty significant, and they're usually a little bit long lasting. So, you know, maybe people are dealing with, you know, chronic stomach pain or pains in their stomach that they really become preoccupied about, but those symptoms are pretty significant where it's like impacting life, those types of things. Um, and then the other category that we can just throw in there real quick is also OCD. Um, and what we'll talk about here and, uh, maybe towards the end of this part is a lot of times I put health anxiety and OCD kind of as hand in hand. Uh, they're not the same thing, but they share so many of the similarities and how they work. And, um, if you ever look through some of the OCD literature. OCD can have health themes and so those would be times where we can be very, become very, you know, have the obsession and compulsion cycle go around health. So that's, that's really what health anxiety is, is usually one of those three things, which is either you don't really have many symptoms and you really worry [00:04:00] about it. You're actually having a lot of symptoms. you're worrying about it, or it may be a bigger dynamic of OCD, where maybe you have other obsessions and compulsions, and then maybe one of them is also just the obsessions and compulsions around your health. Kimberley: Amazing. Michael: yeah. Kimberley: What about hypochondria? Do we, where would you put that? Michael: So that's an older term. Kimberley: Yeah. Michael: So we've kind of, you know, and a lot of times, um, I feel like I'm kind of glad that that term has kind of shifted as just kind of like, you know, illness, anxiety, and somatic symptom. Um, just because there's a lot of judgment and a lot of negativity also around kind of, you know, as soon as somebody is like hypochondria, right? And it's kind of like, it comes with this like really negative experience and like, Oh, you know, they're, they just worry about their health all the Kimberley: Right. Michael: it kind of gets dismissed pretty quickly. So, um, that's just, if you ever see hypochondria, um, it's just an older term or sometimes it's still used in the medical community. [00:05:00] I think it's, even when you look up in some of the, um, Um, things to, uh, you know, for some of the coding, it still comes up as hypochondriasis. Um, however, it's just, it's the same, it's a different terminology just for what we would now call illness, anxiety disorder and somatic symptom disorder. Kimberley Quinlan, Thank you for sharing that too. Cause I think Googling, because that term has been used for decades, that is often what people are looking for. And I think, as you said, people get dismissed like, Oh, you're being such a hypochondriac about it. You know, that. I think is, I'm glad that you, you shared that. Okay. So that was number one. Number two, um, what is the second thing we need to know about health anxiety? Michael: So number two is kind of going right off of what you're saying is a lot of times, you know, what I would really want people to know is to, a lot of times people do get this mess. and even clients that I'm working with, because I work with a lot of health anxiety clients are still trying to navigate [00:06:00] that relationship between, they probably really do have some anxiety around their health, but they're also trying to work with the medical community. and that makes it quite challenging, um, because you know, there can, um, there can be some times where it can be challenging. People can get written kind of off of like, well, this person, you know, they've, they've been anxious about their health before, and then they've sort of become. Um, what could be an obsessive worry but also could be a very realistic worry of I go back into my doctor and they kind of know that I deal with anxiety around my health, they going to take me seriously? Michael: know, if I come in and I say, wow, I've been really having a pain here or here, are they really going to be listening to me? Like really take me seriously and investigating this or are they just kind of writing it off You know, this is, you know, awful, you know, this person has been anxious about a lot of those different things. So the one thing I, I think that we, um, that I think, I think is really important for people to know [00:07:00] is you're working with a medical provider and you don't feel like they're listening to you, they're not validating some of your concerns, they're, they're, you don't feel like they're really invested in some of these things. Um, it's always okay to go find somebody Kimberley: Mm hmm. Michael: That is totally okay to do. You can take it from me. Hell, like, you know, what I would, I don't know if there's no delineation of a health anxiety specialist, but I think there can be some of those times where things are not taken serious. So Kimberley: Yep. Michael: do feel like that is a relationship that you're having with a health provider, find somebody new. Go find somebody that really does listen to you, right? Now if you're also working with somebody that you feel like you really trust, you feel like They feel like they got your back, like they're, they're, you know, but maybe you're kind of running to the end of the road of like, I, don't know really what else we could test for. That's something different, right? Because at least there's that level of trust. So the second thing that we like when it goes into this piece of, you know, like Val or validating people's [00:08:00] symptoms is we also have to realize that there is a difference between physical symptoms, medical symptoms and then also psychological symptoms. And so here's how I break these things down. Medical symptoms is usually the ones we're really afraid of. medical symptom could be like if I have chest pain. And a medical symptom would be I need to go to the hospital because I'm having a heart attack. That is an explanation, a medical explanation of a symptom that I'm Kimberley: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Michael: ER, those types of things. one category or one bucket that sometimes we put those in. A second bucket is what we call physical symptoms. And a physical symptom is something that's actually really happening in our body, probably don't need to run to the ER or the urgent care because of that. So like, for instance, if I went and did a bunch of yard work over the weekend, and my back really hurts, um, arguably because I'm getting [00:09:00] older or because I've done a lot of yard work, who knows? Um, Um, I don't, that's a real physical symptom that a lot of times our mind could try to catastrophize, but it's probably not something that I need to go and run to the doctor about. I probably need to take it easy, put a little bit of ice on my back, et cetera, et cetera. So we have medical symptoms, we have physical symptoms, but then also we have psychological symptoms and this is the way that our mental health can also affect our physical body. So for instance, if we're becoming anxious, I'm sure that, you know, if anybody has ever been anxious before, which I'm going to assume everyone has, If we become anxious, sometimes our chest gets tight. That's a real physical symptom. That's a real symptom that we have. But the origins of the conclusions of that is from a psychological standpoint. Now, here's why I think these buckets are important, why I want people to know about them. Surprise, surprise, health anxiety always usually goes to one bucket. Medical symptoms, right? It's like, Lower back pain, medical. You know, my chest is tight, medical. This weird kind of [00:10:00] feeling in the back of my head, medical. You know, all of those different types of things. And one of the things is being able to have this context of if I could start to separate some of these symptoms out to maybe there are some symptoms that I could have that are medical, but maybe there's also physical symptoms that are just happening. There's a great article that I always like to give all my clients The Noisy Body by, uh, Abramowitz, that's just a wonderful handout, a wonderful article. And it just speaks to the nature of like, well, we get signs and symptoms and weird feelings and burps and farts and all these things all the time. The hard thing is, is when our mind gets really preoccupied and starts to put them into the category of, oh no, what if, could this be this really negative thing? So I'd like to, that's the second point that I would really want people to know is. We have to realize that even though there is always this scary explanation of symptoms, it's important to have this perspective of noticing that there could be, there could [00:11:00] be medical symptoms that I need to really do something about, physical symptoms that I need to do to some TLC, and then also psychological symptoms. And then one last thing I just throw in there real quick before we can go on to the third one is, um, the most important part about this is regardless of what bucket you put this in, all of them are valid and real symptoms. that's the other piece that we get into this kind of like stigma or negativity, that sometimes people will talk about a real symptom that they're having, and then they'll be like, Oh, well, that's just your anxiety as almost as if the symptom is not happening. And so I think what I would really want people to know with health anxiety is regardless of what bucket it's coming from, it's always real. You're always valid and feeling it. The one question that we have to just ask, which is going to lead us into number three at some point is. Or can we trust that the explanation for the symptom that our brain has brought us really the explanation of what's happening? Kimberley: Mm. [00:12:00] So, I have a question, which you might answer it in, you can even use this for the, for an example. So, a lot of my followers know that I, in, um, in 2018 was diagnosed with Postural Orthostatic Tachycardic Syndrome. Michael: Mm. Mm Kimberley: one of the main symptoms of that is that you faint and a lot of, I'm very well in recovery of this right now, but one of the things was me without using this terminology, which you've beautifully put out. And I actually learned this terminology from you is it was about passing out, passing, like not, not, not passing out, like, uh, differentiating, sorry, my accent got it, differentiating. Um, is this dizziness from my anxiety? Is this dizziness evidence that I'm going to pass out, like faint? Um, Michael: hmm. Kimberley: because a lot of [00:13:00] having this condition is tolerating dizziness 24 seven of the day. Like it's a symptom of the condition. Um, so in that case, just as that as an example, how would you, which bucket would you put this in? Michael: For sure. Good. Great question. And this is where, like, health anxiety, I think that's why it's really important to, to really notice the stickiness of Kimberley: Mm. Michael: Because, you know, as an, also as an OCD specialist, a lot of times when we deal with OCD themes, not often having people, like, deal with, uh, you know, harm obsession. And also undergoing evaluations to see if they're a Kimberley: Yes. Yes. Michael: Uh, that doesn't really make sense. health anxiety starts to become this kind of interesting dynamic of, well, what happens if we have anxiety around medical Kimberley: Yeah. Michael: And also we have to like, go get evaluations and other things that are actually Kimberley: Yep.[00:14:00] Michael: that's a great point. And it's like, okay, so what if the, um, Um, you know, the symptoms that I'm feeling could be an explanation of a medical condition that's happening, or it also could be, you know, from the place of, um, you know, from my anxiety. Um, think the answer comes down to, um, is going to this, what I usually like try to call a pretty, a best guess. Which is, now, when we're thinking about passing out, the one thing I think is always important. as a person that works on a lot of needle phobias and blood phobias is that if you feel like you're going to pass out, get yourself in a safe place, right? Like sit down, make sure you don't hit your head. You know, Kimberley: Yep. Yep. Yep. Michael: But also there's this kind of conclusion that we can come through with our experience that says, know, um, if I, if I think about the symptoms that I'm having right now, where would I put my best guess on those, right? And if we're putting this, that medical side, then we could say, okay, well, [00:15:00] Um, I need to do whatever the doctor has recommended that I do in those situations because that's just what's most helpful. If I'm feeling like it's more on the anxiety side, that's maybe where I could use some of my tools that we learned in therapy to be able to manage that. Now is it a perfect system? No it's not, right? Because there's always this little piece of uncertainty and the unknown there Kimberley: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Michael: that's, I think that's what's also really important about being able to kind of discuss those things either with your doctor or a therapist to be able to really walk those muddy lines. Um, I have quite a few clients that we try to walk that line all the time where, I've had clients where thought that maybe this was or maybe it was assessed as like, Oh, this is just something anxiety related. That's why you're having symptoms. And then it's like, months later, surprise, I'm allergic to this, right? And so, that's why we don't always know the answers to all of [00:16:00] those things. Um, but as we kind of go, we can kind of walk that line to say, could I make my best guess about what this is at this current period of time? And if that was the case, what would I do in that Kimberley: Yeah. Michael: You know, and so do I need to go a medical route? Do I need to go to a psychological Kimberley: Yeah. Which I think takes us to next step number three so beautifully. So go ahead and share what is the third thing we need to know. Michael: Absolutely. So number three talks about. Um, a lot of times our brain can bring us to a lot of different conclusions and we just talked about the conclusions that a lot of times our brain Kimberley: Yeah. Michael: into in terms of medical, physical, psychological. And a lot of times we just take those conclusions as the truth. go with them because they're terrifying, they're scary, right? And they feel really threatening. And so one of the things that I think is important for people to recognize is I like to use the example of a spam email. is I'm sure we've all gotten spam emails. And if you haven't gotten a spam email, please let me know your trick because that would be I could clear out like [00:17:00] 75 percent of my email box. So but a spam email to me is kind of walking this line between is a spam email real? Oh, of course, we all get them in our email box, right? Like they actually come through to us. They have a time stamp, et cetera, et cetera, right? But the one question that we have to start to kind of wrestle with with health anxiety is. is the conclusion or email that I'm getting a reliable source of information. so if you get an email from tomjones1973 at AOL. com that claims to be from the FBI, why would the FBI be sending you from AOL? That doesn't make Kimberley: No. Michael: Now, is that email real? You betcha. However, if we can question its reliability to say, can, you know, do I trust this email to be what I think it is? Kimberley: Mm hmm. Michael: Then that can really start to dictate some of the actions that we take. So when we think about health anxiety, right, is your brain can give you a lot of really scary a lot of really unknown possibilities that could be going on with you. And [00:18:00] so, you know, one of the things that I think we have to really kind of start to become curious about is, do I just go with them? You know, am I there just responding to all of my spam emails in my email box? And if you do, we probably need to help like. Credit monitoring and all those Kimberley: Yeah. Michael: besides, from that point, do we get ourselves into a lot of actions that could be very unhelpful when we take these emails as as reliable? So, like, for instance, if you, you know, you have the dizziness, right? And you're, you're, you know, the initial evaluation or conclusion that your brain comes up with, aka what we could also call an obsession, right? Is like this could be an aneurysm, right? Or maybe you have a stroke or all these different types of really scary things. If we take that as a reliable piece of information, it starts to make Kimberley: Mm hmm. Michael: that we would be like, well, I need to figure that out. I need to be like, look up some symptoms of online or I need to go to the urgent care, whatever those things are, right? but if we get a, oh, by the way, I should have included this earlier, but [00:19:00] that's okay. We'll include it Michael: This is all on the premise that we have a relatively good answer. if you don't. If you're getting dizzy for no reason, and you have no idea why, I don't want you practicing anxiety Kimberley: Yes. Michael: Go to the doctor, right? Like, explore those things, figure those things out, try to get a pretty good answer. However, if we get a pretty good answer about something, and we are going to say it's like, I think this is because of my anxiety, but my brain wants to really convince me of all these other conclusions. can we use some of those tools in terms of, you know, Becoming curious about, can I really trust my brain sending me right Kimberley: Mm hmm. Mm Michael:  if this is like the 937th time that I'm convinced that I've had a stroke, what's the chances the 938th time is going to be it? Probably not. so, I could go look on things online, or probably got a lot of other things to do, too, that I could go and get involved with as well. So, that's it. One of those tools is, is really being [00:20:00] curious about, yeah, your brain's going to give you a lot of really scary medical possibilities. If we can ask that question of not if it's real or not, because those things are totally real, but can I trust the message that I'm being sent? It can start that process. Now, the other tool that I really like to use with people is diffusion. Um, and, and to kind of give it a quick breakdown of cognitive fusion, even though some people may be like some of the listeners may know, is just being able to like what kind of relationship that we have with some of our scary thoughts. so sometimes I kind of describe as like, well, it's not really necessarily getting away from them. It's just about changing our perspective towards them. So like, I kind of think about this example. It's like if you go out into like a really busy highway, you set up a lawn chair right in the middle of a busy highway and you have cars whizzing by you, you can see the traffic, but man, oh man, is it overwhelming. And so if we can use some diffusion skills and those would all be the great things, like, you know. Uh, just repeating or thanking our mind or my favorite is always just [00:21:00] singing, like, you know, the tune to happy birthday, Kimberley: Yep, Michael:  be right is sometimes those start to kind of be able to take us from this position of, could you just take your chair and put it on the side of the highway? And if we can do that, we can still see the traffic that's out in front of us, but it's much less overwhelming at that point because you don't have cars whizzing by Kimberley: all right Michael:  these cognitive interventions, I think, can be really helpful. Um, because a lot of times our brain is leading us to all of these conclusions, giving us these really scary ideas, and it might really start to go against the information that we have at that time, at least medically. Kimberley: Amazing. And I, the reason I love this is that was a big piece of it for me, just to sort of give a real example of me having health anxiety and a chronic illness when you are you're dizzy. My brain was like, this is it. You're going down, you're going down. And I had to get used to just having the thought like, yeah, you're dizzy. It could be it. But we know the symptoms of when you are, and you're just, you know, again, like you [00:22:00] often say, like, it's about being uncertain and being able to just to have the thoughts whenever they show up. So would you add anything to that or, Michael:  Know it. And I think what's important with that is, there's a piece of uncertainty Kimberley: um, Michael:  but we can also act within a reasonable Kimberley: yes, Michael:  right? It is like, you know, we can, we can always make those, you know, I always love delay in these situations Kimberley: um, Michael:  is if I start to become dizzy and I'm concerned that like this is going to be, this is me passing out, right? And if you just like, if you're dizzy and you remain dizzy and you remain dizzy, you know, those types of things and it, you know, you're just kind of like working through it and it's like, okay, maybe that's one thing if you're dizzy and then the wall start closing in, right? And you start to get tunnel Kimberley: yeah, Michael:  Well, that's what you can always make a different, Kimberley: yes, yes, um, Michael: I think the lay, but. nothing about health anxiety that likes delay, right? Because whenever these [00:23:00] symptoms come up, it's always going to be about you need to do this Kimberley urgent, Michael:  to the E. R. Currently, like right Kimberley: yeah, Michael:  wait, Kimberley: yeah, yeah, Michael:  if even if we're able to kind of like practice some type of delay, right? We'll be like, okay, this is what this feels like now. I understand the concerns my brain has, like not quite sure if I can trust it. I don't know. It's giving me some bad advice before. I But could I just wait that out and kind of see how that Kimberley yeah, Michael:  And, you know, if it continues to get worse or you start to get tunnel vision, go take care of it. There's probably something going on. But if those experiences, you know, I think what happens a lot of times for people is they, they try to move themselves on to something else, right? They get back to dinner or whatever it might be. And then they kind of have that reflection point or like later of being like, Oh yeah, I was like dizzy Kimberley: um, Michael:  earlier. And it's like, Oh, Kimberley: um. Michael:  to that? Right? So I think delay can be a really helpful Kimberley: Fantastic. Quickly, just because I have a couple of people in mind, and I know what their questions would be here, is in regards to [00:24:00] the, the point number two, where we were talking about the difference between medical, physical, and psychological. Let's say somebody. Um, has just intrusive thoughts about like, what if, actually maybe no, let's say they have a headache, a physical symptom and their brain is just constantly telling them like, this is a brain aneurysm, or this is a brain tumor, like this is cancer and it doesn't quit, um, Um, and the person also experiences this sort of intuition that this is what it is. What, how would you, what, what bucket would you put that in and would you use the same skills? Michael:  So, yeah, so the, the questions that I would have for that situation, which is number one, have you been to the doctor? You know, have you gotten it checked out? Have you like evaluated some of these, you know, headaches that you've been Kimberley: Mm. Michael:  Now if they say, uh, no, I've never been to the doctor about that. I'm, I'm not a doctor. I'm going to say would be [00:25:00] kind of silly of me at that point to be like, you're Kimberley: Yeah. Michael:  You know, that's Kimberley:  Just tolerate the uncertainty. Michael:  Yeah, that'd be good, right? We're like, that's probably not great. So because nobody would do Kimberley: No. Michael:  Like we, well, hopefully most people would not do that because if there is, so that's the first question I would always Kimberley: Mm. Michael:  is if you're having a physical symptom that's different, that's changed, that's more significant, whatever it might be, question needs to always be, have you gotten this Kimberley: Mm. Mm. Michael:  part that it's, I really wish there was a better answer to this. but there's not the least that I found, which is like how much is too much, you know? So if you're like, okay, so let's say the answer is yes, I have gotten it looked at and they can't find anything. Um, sometimes the conversation starts to become, well, how much, like, should I go for a second opinion or third or fourth or fifth or sixth? Um, and what's really difficult about that [00:26:00] is no one really knows that answer. Okay. And, um, what I try to really do to level with people, too, is that, you know, if you were having that headache and you're like, I don't know, Mike, like, this is like, I've seen like four doctors, still feel like there's something, like the intuition Kimberley: Mm hmm. Michael:  feel like there's something wrong. There's something going on. I can't, I can't fight you on that and being like, no, you shouldn't, right? Because I, the fifth time might actually be the time where it's like something comes back and you're like, oh my goodness, like, I'm so glad they found that. So. always this kind of difficult time that I get these questions where people would say like, what, what, what is too much now getting like a fourth or fifth or sixth opinion, whatever that might be, could just be reassurance Kimberley: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Michael:  you know, getting another clear scan or whatever that might be. And it just kind of gives us that temporary relief of like, okay, goodness, like nothing's going on. But I think it's reasonable for us to know it's like it's not a very clear cut kimberley-_1_06-04-2024_101032: Mm hmm. Michael:  Of saying, like, [00:27:00] everybody's in their right to go get another opinion. you know, to, you know, however much you want to pursue that. We have to be on board and somewhat of being like, okay, like, go do that. But the other thing that I would always throw in there, too, that I like to try to work with people is, there's going to be productive ways that we can pursue that, there's going to be unproductive Kimberley: Mm. Michael:  you're having those headaches, and you're, and you're like, I've seen three people, I kind of want to go see four, I would say, I can't fight you on that. You should go see that fourth person, see what they say, but that's a productive method of trying to figure something out, right? Like, cause you could possibly, they could give you some scan, right? And be like, Oh my goodness, like right here, we found something, right? also other unproductive behaviors that sometimes people get into, um, that like your brain at 3 a. in the morning while you're ruminating about if there could be something going on in your brain or not, right? have no access to scans, like you're not gonna figure anything [00:28:00] out. You're not gonna come to some revelation of like, Oh, now that I can see inside my brain, I can see what the problem is, right? So, there's, there's kind of an encouragement that I try to give to people, too, is if you really feel like there's something wrong, and even though you've gotten a lot of things that have said maybe nothing is wrong, if you want, if you feel like it's necessary to continue to pursue those productive ways, set an appointment with a doctor. Go to that appointment when it's the time, right? Great, go do those. But some of these other things when we're thinking about like, but are we like ruminating about this for hours on end during the day? never going to become anything Kimberley: Mm. Michael:  not going to come to some insight of like, ah, I see everything clearly now, I see what's wrong. And so we try to practice those tools in those situations of saying, you know, if that's kind of an unhelpful thing to do, could I find something better to do? Uh, to do with my time than just endlessly going over this in my Kimberley: Yeah. Amazing. Which [00:29:00] ties us right into the thing number four. Um, tell us. Michael:  four, the four, I almost held up five, so that's good. Number four is, now, when we think of like, like, you know, for some of the viewers who might be a little bit more familiar with OCD, a lot of times I just use the terminology of TOs Kimberley: Mm. Michael:  triggers, obsessions, and Kimberley: Mm. Michael:  you might be saying, it's like, well, I didn't think health anxiety was really OCD. It's not. But. The functionality of these things kind of operate in the exact same way. So number four is talking about compulsions, or if you just wanted to view it as safety behaviors, that's cool, too. They kind of do the same thing, which is there's going to be physical or behavioral compulsions that we could do or mental. and one of the things that we really have to account for is just their ability to not really be able to give us an answer that we really want. and how sometimes it actually, especially with health anxiety, one of the things that I'll point with health anxiety. Usually makes things [00:30:00] worse. So there's always like pretty classic different mental or behavioral compulsions, you know, googling or, you know, going on Web and D and clicking on the little body right and being like, you know, we get the huge list, you know, you put in fatigue and it's like, gives you all these terrible things, right? It's like, Oh, maybe I don't Kimberley: There's like cancer at the bottom of every single Urban D article. Michael:  Yeah. Yeah, it's just like this. Just put it on the Kimberley: Yeah. Michael: you know, it'll be there. Um, the one thing I think is really important to consider specifically with health anxiety is the tendency for us to become really inwardly focused. And I think this makes it really difficult people to be able to have any chance of being able to move on from any of their health worries. a lot of times what we all want to do is the one thing that we want to monitor is the thing that's wrong. And so for instance, if you go back to your dizziness, right, we might continue to check in on that being like, well, my dizzy now or my dizzy now. How about now? [00:31:00] But the problem is, is that now you're like now you're swapping buckets, Because we have the medical that we have the physical and we have the psychological bucket. But what's a, um, I don't know. You feel dizzy because you drank a little bit too much coffee this morning. You're kind of feeling a little whoa, right? That's a physical symptom. not medical. You don't need to go to the doctor and be like, I've drank too much coffee and be like, great, just go run around for a little bit. Work it off. Right. Um, but the hard part about that is like, so that's a physical symptom. However, then we could start to get that conclusion that we talked about of like, Oh, my goodness, like, what does this mean? And maybe the conclusion is medical. You know, it's like, Oh, maybe I'm gonna pass out. but then the result of that is psychological. We start to get anxious about it. We're like, Oh my goodness, like this could be really bad and like, I don't want this to happen. However, now the byproduct of anxiety a lot of times is lightheadedness, right? And so we work into this catch 22. The [00:32:00] hard part about it is we keep checking in on those and there's a lot of body monitoring with health anxiety that really gets people stuck, um, paying attention to feelings and sensations and symptoms. And the hard part is it keeps going back and forth between these two things of we get really concerned about a symptom. It makes us feel anxious, which increases symptoms, which we notice more. And when we notice more, it makes us feel more anxious. And when we get more anxious, and so we just keep getting into the step ladder. So one of the things that I think is important when we think about this Catch 22 that starts to happen, is I try to really encourage people to think about, If often you get, start to get stuck within your body, your, your focus is inward thinking about how do I feel, what do I notice all of these different things? biggest goal that we can do with any of these things is how do we become more outwardly focused? That doesn't mean that you have to like [00:33:00] pretend that you're not feeling some of these things. Um, I'm a huge fan of dialectics in terms of using and Kimberley: Yes. Michael:  which is noticing like I'm feeling dizzy right now. And also I could try to be as best of my ability really involved in whatever is going on around me. Um, and so think it is, like there's a lot of different compulsions and things that we could talk about, but the biggest one I would want to bring up, at least for people to be aware of. it's becoming more inwardly focused, gets us stuck Kimberley: Yeah. Michael:  And, and it's, and understandably it's scary. to direct ourselves away from those, right? Because then it starts to feel terrifying of like, oh my goodness, if there's something that's really going wrong with me and I'm not paying attention to it? And that's where we start to get to the feared consequence, Kimberley: Yeah. Tell Michael:  some of the work starts to become, which is if I can recognize I have a pretty good answer about [00:34:00] this, maybe my brain isn't being all that reliable. I think this is just a psychological symptom. Um, maybe I'm willing to take the risk that maybe it could be something bigger, better. Um, but in service of being able to get back to my life do the things that I would like to be able to do, maybe that's a risk I'd be willing to take. Kimberley: me about number five. Michael:  That leads into number five. realize whenever I wrote these out, these were going to blend so well, but Kimberley: It's like we're flowing. We're in, we're jiving today. Michael: I know, right? The number five just goes back to this piece of The hardest thing about health anxiety is that one of the things it's not always about death because that sometimes that's what people always think is like, Oh, you're just afraid to die. Um, Kimberley: Mmm. Michael: people's faces whenever I always had the pre face, know, we always like to ask that question of like, what would be the worst thing about that? And health anxiety is always the really like, [00:35:00] uh, interesting one where it's like, well, I'd probably die and be like, what would be the worst thing about that? And people look at me and they're like, Kimberley: I'd be dead. Michael:  that'd be dead. And I'd be like, yeah, I know, but what would be the worst? And so for some people it is, Kimberley: Yeah. Michael:  death. But there's a variety of different, um, feared consequences that I think it's important for people to wrestle with too, which is some people it's around Kimberley: Mmm. Michael:  Some people it's about just the struggle. It's about treatment. It's about just how miserable it'd Kimberley: Mm. squadcaster-48hd_1_06-04-2024_121032: You know, uh, it would be about, you know, the whole process around, you know, getting treated and. You know, saying goodbye to people. For some people, it's not just about death, but it's also about, um, like, the impact that they would see a huge increase in health anxiety when people usually have, like, big life events. Uh, not just in terms of stress, but like, they get married, and now it's kind of like, it's up the ante of their health anxiety. It's like, well, now it would be kind of bad if you Kimberley: Yeah. Michael:  But it would be even [00:36:00] worse because now you'd leave like your spouse behind or even worse like Kimberley:  Yeah. Michael:  kids search into the picture, right? And it's like, Oh my goodness. And so I think it's really important to kind of start to look at is a lot of things that we could really fear to lose. The dirty trick that health anxiety plays it kind of makes us lose those things before we've even lost Kimberley: Yeah. Michael:  And what I mean by that is that sometimes we become so preoccupied with our health. Going to the ER, you know, running to the doctor again or, uh, just ruminating her mind or, you know, the family's around or you're having dinner and you're on your phone, right? Like looking up symptoms, right? things that we're afraid to lose might already be Kimberley: Yeah. Michael:  they're there in front of you to be able to engage in. the really hard thing is, is we're afraid that those would go away, but they've already gone Kimberley: Yeah. Umm. Michael: other process. So. think the one thing we have to kind of really wrestle with is [00:37:00] it's not just about trying to get rid of anxiety. I mean, that's part of the picture. Um, I'm sure for anybody that's ever in the helping profession, they'll always have somebody come in and saying, I really want, you know, this to go away, to be less pain, to feel less anxious, to feel less sad, whatever that might be. And those are cool goals. Like I'm on board with those, right? Like, I don't want people to feel more anxious. Um, I want people to feel less anxious. But if that's the extent of our goals for ourselves is just to, like, worry about my health less, I mean, that's kind of good, but we're missing a big part of the picture here, which is really, what can we add? You know, because health anxiety wants to steal all these things away from you in your life, The things that we're so scared to lose in the first place. And so a big part of number five, I think, is important for people to really recognize, is that Health anxiety is going to want to take those things away from you. And I wouldn't want people to work just like feel less anxious about their Kimberley: Yeah. Michael:  I would want them [00:38:00] to work in what are the things that you're really afraid to lose. I want you doing more of Kimberley: Yeah. Michael:  Right. And that is going to get to the point of having to work to give up some of the things that often would make us feel like we need to do to be able to keep ourselves safe. And that's hard. That is, that's the Kimberley: Yeah. Michael:  Is being able to lean into those things. But, the work also becomes, also gets with the reward, which is, we're actually being able to live life and be able to do those really meaningful and valuable things that we really are afraid to lose in the first Kimberley: Yeah. And when you start living your life, you tend to be focused less inward on all the symptoms as well. So it's sort of like a reverse snowball effect. Michael:  That one of the, absolutely. Good, I'm glad you bring up that point, right? Because that's what happens, Kimberley: Yeah. Michael: we get involved in something else, we start having fun, and then it's that tendency for our mind to want to go back to be like, well, how does this[00:39:00] Kimberley: Yes. Michael:  How does this feel? And so my encouragement for anybody is that about trying to get away from those. I try to draw a quick, line between distraction and redirection, which is a distraction is like an escape, right? Be like, I can't think about this. I got to get away from it. You know, like, let me focus on this movie, Kimberley: Mm hmm. Michael:  Where a redirection is really just trying to make a place for that of just noting of like, yeah, I am feeling this way. I noticed my brain is like yelling at me to be like, look this up on Google right Kimberley:  Yes. Michael: I could notice that. And also, I know it's going to be more helpful for me to make a place for that. Get back to the movie. Really try to get into that. Pay attention to it. that gives us a chance to do, just like what you said, is now we're focusing outside Kimberley:  Yeah. Michael: Instead of all the things that could be going on in our body, which some of them could possibly be serious, but most of them are probably just our bodies being Kimberley: and I think that's cool too is like our bodies will be bodies there, especially as we [00:40:00] age. I see a lot of people's health anxiety go up as aging. You said aches and pains, sleep issues, like it's so common. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Michael: and it's like sleeping on like something like really uncomfortable floor and And then like, I'm like, oh, I slept really good. And then like me, as I got older and there was like a sock in your bed that you slept on and you're like, oh my goodness. Like, and, and age is gonna Kimberley: Yeah. squadcaster-48hd_1_06-04-2024_121032: had to remember as, as age goes up, health kimberley-_1_06-04-2024_101032: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Michael: you know, the question real quick, I'd just like to add with this is a lot of times I do get the question of like, well, what if you've had cancer in the past? Right? Like, is that still health anxiety? And it's like, well, you know, if you're in remission you're doing all the things that you need to do, you know, you're probably getting more frequent scans, all those different types of things. We can still become preoccupied with the [00:41:00] possibility of like, what if this new thing, whatever we're feeling is cancer again, right? And that's, I think we have to walk that, that piece of like, that's an incredibly understandable place. And also we go back to number three. which is, is like, are we getting information from our brain that's reliable? And if all the other information that we have in the current period of time, working with an oncologist, whatever it might be, is saying, Hey, your markers look good. Blood work looks good. Your scans look great. Then that's maybe what we challenge ourselves to say, maybe I need to get back the things that are most important. Kimberley:  I love this so much. Thank you so much for sharing these points and bringing so many applicable skills and tools as well. Tell us where people can hear about you. Tell us about your book. All the things. Michael: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, A couple different things with that. One is we did release a book in the mid December. Um, [00:42:00] it's right here. The Complete Guide to Overcoming Health Anxiety. Uh, How to Live Life to the Fullest Because You're Not Dead Yet. Kimberley:  Punchy little yes. Michael: Still here. So, um, there is a book out on Amazon. You can get it, uh, soft cover or you can get a Kindle version. It's written, wanted to write it. Uh, so the, my coauthor. Uh, Josh Kimberley:  Yes. Michael: and I wrote it, um, and we really wanted to write a book that didn't feel too clinical, didn't feel too like, um, you know, that, you know, like you're reading like a, an academic book or something like that. So I think if you appreciate maybe a little bit of a lighter approach, at sometimes funny, some points, uh, cringy, maybe not cringy, I'll just blame it on Josh. Maybe that was all his cringy points. I, I did all the good jokes. Uh, just kidding, Josh. I love you. Um, uh, it is, it's just written in a little bit of a different way that I hope that, you know, some of the feedback [00:43:00] is for people have said that like it's written differently, but it's just written and they feel like they can connect Kimberley: Yeah. Kimberley:  make sense. Um, but that's also very back to, you know, number three that we talked about in terms of cognitive interventions is that you know, it's really important to start to change our relationship with those. So the book is out there, but also we, we also started a website, um, overcoming health anxiety. com. Um, and it has a ton of different resources. We just redid it and try to add a bunch of different other stuff. So we have a health anxiety one on one section. We have treatment resources. have videos, you know, different podcasts. Um, we have a link to our free virtual support group that meets every Thursday of the month. Michael: So, um, uh, so, uh, we have a link to there. Because we really just want to be able to try to reach out. And like I said when we first started [00:44:00] is, a lot of people know that this is a thing, right? Because they, they know and there's even the term cyberchondria out there, right? Like people know about health anxiety. But very people do know that you can actually like get Michael: this not necessarily just through a doctor in terms of like, Oh, here's your medical treatment, but there's psychological tools that you can use that with that. So, yeah, those are our resources. We got that website. We got the book. Um, and, um, we're just trying to connect with health anxiety sufferers to show them that there's some hope to feel better. Kimberley: So good. Thank you. So many wonderful resources and amazing book. Thank you so much for coming on. Um, those folks are the five things you need to know about health anxiety. Thank you so much, Mike, for being here with us today. Michael: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

In this profound episode, Jonathan is joined by esteemed theologian and author Michael Horton to discuss his latest book, "Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us." In a world teetering on the brink of chaos—from unsettling politics to the lingering effects of the global pandemic—Horton's book offers not a typical self-help guide but a deep theological exploration of how a proper fear of God can liberate us from our myriad earthly fears.Dr. Horton, Professor of Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Seminary, explains what it truly means to fear God—both biblically and theologically—and how this reverential fear can effectively drive out fears of the future, others, and even death itself.Throughout the episode, Dr. Horton discusses the different types of fears that plague our society—from cultural anxieties to personal struggles—and how these stem from a lack of genuine fear of God. He emphasizes confronting our earthly fears with the hope found in Christ, rooted in the Gospel, and the shift from self-preservation to a Christ-focused life.This episode is a humbling, thought-provoking, and hope-igniting journey that challenges listeners to replace false securities with the profound joy of knowing Christ, who commands us, "Do not be afraid." Join us as we explore how cultivating a healthy fear of God can recover our sanity in these turbulent times.To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/CandidFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpodInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpodTwitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpodTRANSCRIPT:This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 249: Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears That Divide Us: Michael Horton.  [00:01] Jonathan: My very special guest is Mike Horton. He is a professor of systematic theology and apologetics at Westminster Seminary in California, and he is the author of many books, including The Christian Faith Ordinary and Core Christianity. He also hosts the White Horse Inn radio program. He lives with his wife, Lisa, and their four children in Escondido, California, and it looks like he's on his back patio,  having a conversation with me and being very gracious with his time. Mike Horton, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.[00:45] Michael: Thank you, Jonathan.[00:50] Jonathan: I do thank you for your time. Now Mike, I've read your books, I have subscribed and I do recommend all of our listeners subscribe to the White Horse Inn. If you could just give us a quick, whirlwind tour of your story, we can talk a little bit about the podcast and some of your books as we progress through the interview.[01:19] Michael: Well, thank you, Jonathan. Yeah, I was raised in a Christian home and came to understand the doctrines of grace partly through my older brother. Kind of had my own little, not little, my own Romans revolution and then started digging deeper into Church history and theology and biblical studies, and eventually went to Biola University, Westminster California, then to Oxford for doctoral studies and then post-doc at Yale and came back to teach at my alma mater and have been here for 25 years. Blessed to be able to have a hand, with my colleagues, in training pastors; pastors training pastors.[02:17] Jonathan: I've been a recipient of many of the students of Westminster Seminary who taught me at Reformed Theological Seminary in Atlanta, and I've been really blessed by your work. You've got a very jovial, friendly, California vibe to you, but when you speak, you're like a double-edged sword. It's so penetrating. And I think there could be a theological issue that I've been struggling with for months and you'll say it so concisely in a few sentences, and I'll think, Where was that when I needed that?[03:09] Michael: You're too kind. Thank you.[03:11] Jonathan: Tell us a little bit about the White Horse Inn. It has been on for something like thirty years.[03:17] Michael: Yeah, thirty-plus, almost thirty-five years now. It has been such a fun thing. I've learned so much from my colleagues on the program. I still learn from the new team. We produce a magazine, too, Modern Reformation Magazine, which is really—I encourage people to subscribe to that. It's a good digest of topical theology related to culture. The umbrella organization is called Sola Media, and one of the things that we do that I'm so excited about being a part of is called Theo Global, where we host theological conversations (like we do on the White Horse Inn) between Baptist, Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican traditions and bring people together from a particular region. So we've been doing it for eleven years in India and also almost that long in Nigeria or in Kenya, in Nairobi. And then also Cairo for the Middle East. We just did one in Thailand that Pakistanis and Indians were able to come to, because they're not able usually to see each other. And then we are, Lord willing, starting another one in Southeast Asia, probably Singapore.So these have been so rich. Out of them are coming, a series of theology books from the global church to the global church. And so instead of having just regional theologies or theologies that pretend that they're not culturally contextual, we want to hear the voices of people from different locations testifying to the same Gospel, and that's just really been lots of fun.[05:42] Jonathan: Well, having ministered near that area of the world in Australia, you're right, there can be a disconnect between the cultures. We read each other's books and that sort of thing, and those are Western cultures, but I think we miss out on hearing about what is happening in Southeast Asia, Because they do face similar obstacles but also some quite different. As one of the points of your book is, there is still the one true God and the one Gospel that reaches across those cultures and reaches across so many of those things that we would consider barriers. And I think that's wonderful. I pray the Lord would bless that.[06:30] Michael: Thank you. One of the things I find, Jonathan, is there is a sweet unity around the Gospel that binds us when I go to these other places. Wherever I am in the world, I don't feel like I'm a stranger because I'm with my brothers and sisters. I wish I felt the same way in America. It's very different here.[06:51] Jonathan: Yeah, I was going to say it's interesting that what you're doing is you're unifying and uniting across denominations, across cultural things, and yet that's working almost in the opposite direction of where we see things here, which is there's division within denominations; there's division within small regions. You're undoing what is happening on a bigger scale in some of the Western parts. It's exciting to hear that's not happening everywhere, that there's actually some unification taking place and that's encouraging. And I know that's going to be an aspect of what we talk about in our conversation about one of your new books.Now, I know that you had some health issues with your heart a couple of years ago. Maybe for some of our audience who didn't know or having heard any updates, are you healthy?[07:54] Michael: Thanks for asking. Yes, what it was was a valve that just exploded in my heart, so it was an emergency open-heart surgery. But they said—they know my arteries and my heart better than anybody, they said, you'll die of something, but it won't be of heart disease. You have a good heart; you have good arteries; this was just a fluke.[08:24] Jonathan: Unbelievable.[08:25] Michael: So—yeah. I'm fully recovered. They said I could go bungee jumping again if I want to.[08:32] Jonathan: Again. I'm glad that you were already doing that—I picked up your book a while ago and I've been wanting to have you on the podcast ever since reading it. And the book is called Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us. And my goodness, what a perfect title for everything we see. Give us a little bit of the reason for writing and the timing of the book.[09:18] Michael: Well, it had been percolating for years now, actually. I wrote a book many years ago called Beyond Culture Wars: Is America a Mission Field or a Battlefield? And this is in a similar vein, but really in light of the fears that really divide us today. And the center used to be the Bible, the Gospel, getting the Gospel right and getting the Gospel out. We have our doctrinal differences across the evangelical mainstream, but basically we had different political views and those political views didn't divide between brothers and sisters and churches.And what I've seen lately has just been like a food fight in a cafeteria, and political issues and social issues raised to the level of the Trinity. And it's like, okay, well, we can argue about that over coffee, but we don't bring it into the church. That used to be kind of how people thought about things. These things are important, but they're not as important as our unity in Christ. But I hear people attacking pastors, pastors attacking their flock, back and forth over these issues. And I think people don't get this heated over the doctrine of election or justification or the Trinity. Does it suggest that these issues are deeper in our hearts than the truth of Christianity, so what really binds us?And I looked at it and I said what really binds us is salvation, what we think we're saved from. If we think we're saved from the people over there who are threatening our values, or the people over there who are different from us ethnically, or the people over there who have a different view of economics and social justice? What are we really afraid of? What are our ultimate fears? And I argue that we have all these secondary fears. The real fear deep down, the mother of all fears, is the fear of death. And none of the solutions that can be offered by FOX or CNN, there is no solution to that. But we have it. Why isn't that on our dashboard as central, getting it right and getting it out?[13:01] Jonathan: In the book you cast a broad net in kind of what you've just said up here, picking out a few of the issues that you're seeing so much division over. But then you lay out some of the theological framework to reorientate your reader to where fear should rightly be placed. And it's away from the fear of one another and having a right fear of God.And you use the word sublime in the book, which I found really helpful as an aspect of God. I wonder if you could give us a little bit of explanation and walk that out for us.[13:52] Michael: Sure. I love that word. Sublime is really, I think, what we're talking about when we talk about the fear of God. Some people will say, “Well, it's not really fear. It's reverence, awe.” Fear is a big part of it, but it's a kind of fear that attracts. Think of what happens if you've ever stood at the mouth of a volcano, looking over it, watching the lava flow. Or I live in Southern California, so we have fires, and there's a kind of weird attraction to going to the fire and seeing it. Or you're out on the ocean and you're terrified. A squall comes up you're afraid, but you're also kind of your heart is racing not just because you're afraid, but also because you're kind of in awe of what's happening. In awe of the waves.God, you know whenever an angel shows up in the Bible, an emissary of God, what's the first thing? You know the number-one commandment throughout Scripture? The number-one command is “Be not afraid.” Because when even the mailman of God shows up, people are terrified.[15:31] Jonathan: Yeah, or Moses's face is a little too bright.[15:36] Michael: Yeah. Hey, put a napkin over that or something… That's what, really, is the basis for all sublime events, encounters that we have is really the fear of God. And so it's … A Jewish writer, John Levinson, puts it well. He says, “In the Hebrew Scriptures God beckons with one hand and repels with the other.”So there's a kind of don't get too close. Even Jesus in His Resurrection, “Don't touch me. I'm different.” God is different from us. And that sense of awe, of majesty, of even terror. Think of the disciples in the boat with Jesus. They were afraid of the storm, and then Jesus calmed the storm and they were afraid of Jesus. Who is this who has control over the winds and the waves? They were terrified. And that's the kind of Who is this? What am I dealing with here? The kind of shock and awe, the surprise is something that is missing, I think, from a lot of our experience as Christians today.[17:11] Jonathan: Well, and I know in the book we've seen a lot of the statistical evidence that comes in support of what you've just said, which shows that evangelical Christians really don't know what they believe. They have a complete misunderstanding of God, of the nature of Christ, of their roles.[17:51] Michael: If the fear of God is not the beginning of our wisdom, then something else will be. We'll fear something else. We will fear other people who are different from us and we'll fear cancer, we'll fear losing our job, we'll fear environmental collapse and catastrophe, we'll fear these other people taking over. It's not that those … that there aren't legitimate concerns of a political and social and cultural nature. But we have a disordered fear. And if we have disordered fears, we have disordered loves.God is not only the source of our greatest fear, legitimate fear; He's also the only one who conquers our fears and says, “Welcome home, prodigal. Welcome home, here's the feast.”[19:22] Jonathan: And deals with our, as you refer to it, the mother of all fears.[19:27] Michael: Death. We're dying. In California, people aren't allowed to die; they pass away; and we put these cemeteries out, far away from view, or we turn them into parks and things. And it used to be every time you walked into a church there would be headstones, and it reminded you as you walked in why you're going in there. The Gospel is for dying people, and we're all on that road. And so the question is, How do we face death? … How is that ultimate anxiety relieved? We mourn, but not as those who have no hope. So what does that mean for my daily life now? I could be twelve years old and I'm dying. I could be eighty and I'm dying. So what … Let's talk about that. Let's talk about the dying and the resurrection of the dead and being attached to Jesus so that what He is in His humanity right now, glorified, we will be. Let's talk about that. That's a lot better than anything on CNN or FOX.[21:00] Jonathan: I love it. I think in the book you tell the story of when you went to a debate with, I might be messing this up, but I think it was with an atheist and you sort of said, “Yep. Great. Can I talk about Jesus now” and kind of put him off, and he sort of like, “I wasn't prepared to debate that.”[21:22] Michael: Yeah. This was years ago. Bill Nye the Science Nye.[21:24] Jonathan: Bill Nigh, that's right.[21:25] Michael: He was talking about how religion is based on false fears and so they develop myths and so forth.[21:37] Jonathan: And you were like, “Well, that's true.”[21:39] Michael: Yeah. I don't disagree; that's a pretty fair analysis of religions. I guess you'd have to take one by one and analyze it, but as a generalization, now can I talk about Jesus and His Resurrection? Let's keep getting back to the main business here.[21:59] Jonathan: The main issue. Yeah. In the book you draw this distinction between naturalistic and hyper supernatural, but then you sort of carve out this third option of ordinary. Can we talk a little bit about that and how we see that playing out in our world today, particularly in the Church?[22:23] Michael: Sure. Often what you see today is a naturalism underwriting the progressive agenda and John Lennon's “Imagine.” On the right, you tend to have a hyper supernaturalism wedded to a conservative agenda. And so what do I mean by that? Well, a naturalistic worldview says, of course, God isn't involved. If God exists, then He's not involved in this world. He didn't create it, it's self-evolving and so forth.A hyper-supernatural worldview says that God works miraculous. You know, to say that God did it means it's a miracle.[23:34] Jonathan: Yeah.[23:35] Michael: Whereas in the Bible God does all sorts of things. Mostly, He doesn't perform miracles. What about all the times when we cut our finger and it heals after a week? What about that? What about a child [who] has a brain bleed in NICU and it resolves in 24 hours. How about those? Those aren't miracles. People say, “the miracle of childbirth.” There's no miracle of childbirth; it's just a spectacular example of God's providence. That's part of our problem is we're looking for God only in the spectacular, only in the extraordinary, only in places where we can point to and say, “Oh, God did that.”So we can't explain how somebody recovered from cancer; we say, “Well, God did it, not the doctors.”[24:46] Jonathan: Right.[24:47] Michael: Well, how about God did it and the doctors did it. God did it through the doctors.[24:52] Jonathan: How much control does God have here?[24:55] Michael: Right. He has control of everything. It's not just supernatural events; it's not just miracles. God's in control of every second, every breath. Every breath that you and I take is under His dominion.[25:11] Jonathan: That's right. He holds all things together. You know, I hear that phrase a lot, “That was a God thing. That was a God thing,” and I always have to stop and say to them, “Everything is a God thing.” I mean, conversations. The fact that your brain works. The ability to read. The ability to understand and reason. It's like I hate when you get that narrow scope, as you're saying. We've lost the sublime. We've lost an understanding of how much—you know, it's almost a deistic view that, you know, God sort of—[25:42] Michael: Yes![25:43] Jonathan: He's put some things in place and then He occasionally steps in and—[25:47] Michael: That's why I argue that actually naturalism and hyper supernaturalism unintentionally conspire with each other against Christianity—[25:57] Jonathan: Right.[25:58] Michael: —you know because, you know, we get to the place where we don't see God in our ordinary, everyday existence, but only in these punctuated events, and we've got to raise things. I think we do a lot of pretending. We pretend that things that have an ordinary explanation are miracles because we have to have God in our life. These large swaths of our lives where there are no miracles are upheld by God's marvelous providence.[26:40] Jonathan: Right. Amen to that. In the book, one of the fears you mentioned is fear of losing your job. And I think in the book you helpfully distinguish between calling and vocation or job and helping us understand and distinguish the two things. I wonder if we can talk a little bit of bringing clarity to that, because we're longing for something to put our identity in. Is it a football club? Is it a university? We're currently, I don't know when this will air, but we're in the middle of March Madness. Who did you pick? What's your university? What's your background?And vocation is very much one of those things we can put our identity in, and yet I think you talk about the ultimate and the penultimate between calling and vocation. I wonder if you could bring some clarity to that, and then we'll turn to some of the practical outworkings of the division we see after that.[27:53] Michael: Yeah. Well, one of the things I try to maintain throughout the book is, look, the things I'm talking about are not unimportant. They are legitimate fears. There is a legitimate anxiety. The question is, where do we go with that? But yes, let's affirm it. It's real, it's a deal, but penultimate not ultimate.For example, if I am in a circle of people I've never met before, we're having breakfast, and I ask them, “Tell me about yourself,” very ordinarily they'll say, “Well, I'm a dentist. I'm a …”Now okay, there's an example. That is part of our identity. Vocation is a gift of God; it's a calling. So to say, you know, we shouldn't place our identity in our vocations, well, not ultimately. That's the problem. It's a part of our identity, just like being a father is part of my identity. That's a calling. And we have to realize, as Luther said, we have many callings, many vocations during our life. We're parents, we're spouses, we're children, we are extended family members, we're dentists, and cleaning movie theaters. We have all kinds of callings/vocations. Sometimes we have a vocation to suffer, to carry a cross. Sometimes we have a vocation to be a friend. We have lots of vocations, and keeping them in balance is very important.Keeping them penultimate, not ultimate, is my point. My ultimate identity is chosen, redeemed, justified, being sanctified, will be glorified, in union with Christ. That's my identity and that's really who I am. Paul talks about himself as if he's almost collapsed into Jesus. His identity is so bound up with Christ that he can even say his suffering is something he glories in because it shares in Christ's suffering. That's my identity; that's where I really find who I am. The other stuff is not just stuff I do, that turns it back into a job. It is part of my identity, but it's penultimate, not ultimate.[30:57] Jonathan: Well, as we said at the beginning, we see division in so many different places. We're, of course, as you know, we're in another election year, and that—fear is going to be used as a … it's going to be weaponized this year, particularly this year, in America. And we have an international audience, so I want to be sensitive, but I know that internationally also they see a lot of American news as well. I think you talk about how, in the book, two sides to the fear coin. You mention both in the book. One side, fear is easily exploited as a motivator. On the other, fear is a weak motivator in the long term. Why is that? Let's kind of unpack that a little bit.[32:07] Michael: Yeah. I use the analogy of deer who are … there is this fight or flight that God gave us and the animals as well. It's purely instinctual, instinctive. You don't … Whether you're a deer or a human being, you don't really think about, you don't contemplate, you don't calculate, you don't explore what … You have a car coming towards you, you flee. You get out of its way if you can. But what happens is—That's adrenaline. That adrenaline rush is just a marvelous gift of God's providence. The problem is what would happen is deer had this disease of constantly being afraid, every crack of brush of another deer drove them wild running in fear? That's what I see us doing now, and what happens is it works in the short term. If you're going to cynically use fear to get a herd of people to do what you want them to do, that might work in the short term, but long term, people can't live like that. Long term, people actually become cynical. They won't participate at all. They'll just turn it off because “I've had this scare a thousand times and I'm not going to have it anymore. I'm tired of it.” It just runs out.And that's what I think a lot of people are feeling right now with American politics. So I'm not an analyst of American politics by any stretch of the imagination; I'm simply looking at it on the pastoral side. What is driving us to be like the deer in the headlights every five minutes? And it's exhausting us.[34:33] Jonathan: Yeah.[34:34] Michael: Each side whipping up the other side against each other. If I don't win this election, dot, dot, dot. If the other person wins the election, dot, dot, dot. It's apocalypse not. I especially find offensive any use of God or the Bible or Christ for that fear. Anyone who does that, particularly cynical leaders who don't even go to church, aren't professing Christians really, but they use the lingo to gain the nomination of particular groups. When Christians participate in that, they carry crosses to the U.S. Capitol to storm it and talk about hanging the vice president, and they're carrying crosses with Bible verses, this is the sort of thing that must just aggravate our Lord and Savior whose name is taken in vain.And yeah, is that a critique especially of evangelical political conservatives? Yes, it is. Because they are my brothers and sisters closest to me. The secularists aren't really invoking the name of Jesus and Bible verses and carrying crosses. I'm more worried about evangelicals distorting the gospel than I am about who wins this next election.[36:54] Jonathan: What is that doing to your testimony to those people who don't know the Lord? What message is it giving them?[37:10] Michael: That Christianity is about power.[37:11] Jonathan: Right, exactly.[37:12] Michael: It's not about a cross with God who has all power becoming flesh being spat upon and then being crucified upon a cross, bleeding for our sins. It's about basically choosing Caesar over Jesus, making Pilate our hero rather than Jesus.[37:45] Jonathan: I found that chapter, I can't remember if it's the Christian nationalism chapter or the one before, but it was really helpful the way that you walked out American history in a way that probably a lot of the readers might say, “I don't know if I understood that.” Or “I don't know if I fully understood Thomas Jefferson and his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church in Connecticut.” Understanding separation of church and state, understanding like how we got to where we are and the creating of even thinking between the British … French revolution and those different paths that were laid out before us. And even just understanding our own history and how we got to where we are, I think a lot of it is just cast as Christian nation. And I found it helpful the way you distinguish that.Because I hear this a lot in the church in terms of America being the new Israel, are there blessings that have come with certain things? Sure, fine. Our Constitution is well put together. I love the history of Witherspoon, the Scottish Presbyterian, and you can see some of that in the language that comes out through the Constitution. Again, I think it's helpful to have your historical understanding rather than this reinterpretation that we have now that it's, as you said, it's this feeling like someone's come in and taken this from us. And now, to use the title of your other book, now we're at war, right? It's not a mission field, it's a battlefield. We're fighting for the honor of our country. And all that's done is create us and them division and a lack of clarity and a lack of what we're called to in a mission sense as Christians. Where was I going with that? Who knows? Anyway, I found it helpful.[40:10] Michael: You said it better. Preach it, brother.[40:16] Jonathan: Just random thoughts. Just reading your books and regurgitating it to the people. So later on in the book you sort of walk us through the areas where division has come in. So we have Christian nationalism has certainly seeped into churches. Then you have some really helpful, short chapters with issues with LGBTQ+ community, cancel culture, racism. Let's just kind of walk through some of these and help Christians who are listening to this who are saying, I thought this was the right way to handle that situation but you're saying something else. Let's kind of walk through maybe even just one or two of those. Again, you had a really great illustration under your LGBTQ+ chapter of the young man whose family had sent him to you and you were pastoring him and what happened with all that. If you could tell us a little bit about that, just to help kind of encapsulate what we're talking about here.[41:35] Michael: Sure, this brother struggling with homosexuality, his dad was on the board of a prominent evangelical organization, and his pastor had told him that we basically don't want your influence in the church, so he was considering leaving the faith. But then he read Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, a book I wrote a long time ago, and came out to work at our organization as just a pretext for just hanging out and shepherding this guy. He became a part of our church and a lot of people looked after him and we got a lot back from him.He went back home, and his pastor said that all this reformed teaching he was getting was heresy and so forth, and no, you've lost your salvation. Romans says that He gave them over to a depraved mind. So he committed suicide and …So what is it? Why do you do stuff like that? Well, you do it out of bad theology, to be sure, but also out of fear. There are a lot of churches that just don't want to deal with it. They don't want to have this problem. They don't want to say that they have people in their congregation who are really, really suffering. If you're a secularist, you don't suffer from homosexuality. You don't suffer with gender dysphoria. Only Christians do. And only Christians suffer with greed and envy and malice and other sins that are listed in these same sin lists in the New Testament. You don't lose your salvation over those.The key is repentance, right? We're called to a life of repentance. Whatever our tendencies are towards particular sins, we're all corrupt in heart. We're sinners and we're sinned against and we are in a sin-cursed world. And so where do we go with that fear? And then once that fear is solved objectively in Christ, having been justified through faith, we have peace with God. That's an objective fact. With that now as an objective fact, how do I respond to this brother or sister who's justified just as I am, and who is being sanctified just as I am, but has propensity toward a particular sin that I think is particularly serious, particularly great? How do I love this person? How do I respond to this person?John Calvin said a pastor needs to learn how to have two voices: one for the sheep and one for the wolves. And what I've seen in some very close cases to my own experience, what I've seen sometimes is pastors confusing the sheep for wolves and treating them as apostates or as people who, you know, if you really were a Christian, you wouldn't be suffering with that. Well, they're not saying, “I have a right to this sin.” They're not saying that it's okay. That's why they're struggling with it—and they're struggling with it in your church.So one of the surveys, actually a couple of the surveys concluded that about 80 percent of people in the LGBTQ+ community were raised in conservative Roman Catholic or Protestant churches.[46:39] Jonathan: Give that statistic again because I think we need to hear it again.[46:42] Michael: I don't know exact, it's in the 80s, 80 percent.[46:46] Jonathan: Over 80 percent.[46:49] Michael: Right. And what's even more striking is the same percentage said that they would come back to church, even if they didn't change their rules, but listened to them and cared for them. That's what I found amazing. I was glad that they asked … they added in that survey even if they didn't change their beliefs but they were kind and they listened and they cared for me.So if I'm fearful, here again the adrenaline, the deer in the headlights, that's a gift God gave us for fleeing something that is imminently threatening. This is not imminently threatening. If I come to understand that, then I'm not a deer in the headlights; instead, my brother or sister, my friend, parent, I'm someone who is looking out for the best of this person and now I can actually get ahold of myself and think and make judgments and articulate things. And ask questions and get information. That's a big part of it. It's not all spiritual. People are suffering from mental health disorders, and that's physical, that's brain chemistry. All kinds of things.People are suffering from sins that have been committed against them in the past. A lot of this is very complicated, and it's not all that person's direct fault. Again, we're all sinners, sinned against, and live in a sin-cursed world. And all those factors play into what we have to consider when we're not the deer in the headlights but can sit down with people over a long time, be willing to walk with them over a long time, be willing to read up on things, ask them questions, we're that interested in them and understanding what they're going through, understanding their pain. It's like if they have cancer we'd be at their house with casseroles, but if they have these things, you know … So let's … fear of the Lord drives out the fears of everyone and everything else. This is the beginning of wisdom.[48:52] Jonathan: Exactly. Well, I think we could probably have this conversation for probably another four more hours, which we might do just because we're having so many technical difficulties. You know, I can't recommend this book enough. Mike Horton, Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us. I told my team I want to re-air this as we get closer to November so that we can all be reminded once again of what we're called to. Mike, what are you working on at the moment?[50:35] Michael: I've been kind of obsessive compulsive about a project, three volumes with Eerdmans. First volume is coming out in May, titled Shaman and Sage. This is a very different project. It's the history of spiritual not religious. Where does this come from? You have this divine self within trying to break out of all constraints. And so I trace it all the way back to ancient Greece and to the Renaissance. And then the second volume, Renaissance to the scientific revolution. And then the third volume is covering Romanticism to the present.[51:31] Jonathan: Oprah.[51:32] Michael: Exactly.[51:35] Jonathan: That's going to be a massive help for believers, because that's the one we see a lot in those statistics. Yeah, I hear that from quite a few people, spiritual but not religious, or whatever the phrase is. But well, Mike Horton, it's been such a privilege. I'm so grateful for your time and coming on to Candid Conversations and sharing with us.[52:10] Michael: Jonathan, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.[52:14] Jonathan: Thank you, brother.  

Welcome to The Singers Talk Podcast based on my book of the same name. My guest this week is Michael “You don't know me, but I'm your bruuuutha” McDonald. Is there anyone on this planet who doesn't love singing along to this legend? His voice defined the sound of the 70's - from his lead vocals to his background vocals - and this episode gets into all of it. The Doobie Brothers, Steely Dan, the lessons he's learned from singing Motown music, his out of body duet with Ray Charles, the story of Michael writing one of Van Halen's greatest songs with David Lee Roth, and why music was so much better when people weren't trying to sound like everyone else.   All my writer's royalties from sales of the book benefit the kids and families at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital through our Music Gives to St. Jude Kids campaign. So I'd love for you to grab yourself a copy. And be sure to check out every episode of the podcast, our livestreams, and more at Volume.com/thesingers talk. And if you dig the show, please rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite streaming platforms to make sure you hear every new episode.    Volume.com is the destination for live music fans, where you can watch live and on-demand performances, see exclusive artist content, listen to music podcasts, and check out live music streams from your favorite artists, venues, and hosts.    Get The Singers Talk book at: Thesingerstalk.com   Donate to St. Jude at: Musicgives.org   You can find JTG @Kingsizetheband Kingsizetheband.com   Jason Thomas Gordon is the lead singer/drummer of the Los Angeles rock band Kingsize, a screenwriter, author, and creator of Music Gives to St. Jude Kids, a campaign that raises money and awareness for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital through music-based initiatives. St. Jude was founded by Jason's grandfather, entertainer, Danny Thomas, in Memphis, Tennessee, in 1962. Jason also serves as a National Committee member of the hospital's board.  

As you will hear in this episode, Kristin Smedley grew up and lived her first thirty years or so as a list-maker and planner. She literally planned everything and she was successful at it. Well, she was until literally one day everything changed. In January 2000 she gave birth to her first son, Michael. When he was eight months old she asked a nurse friend/Michael's babysitter about the fact that Michael's eyes seemed not to be focused when he was lying on his back. After examinations, she got the news that Michael was blind. All the plans she had for herself and him “crashed to the floor”.   We get to hear Kristin's story with not one blind son, but a second one, Mitch who was born two years later. Kristin will tell you that she refused to adopt the attitude that these two blind kids could not grow up and do anything. She will tell us how both sons played baseball in grammar school. You will hear how Kristin's incredible positive attitude about blindness helped her family discover and learn that blindness does not hold people back.     About the Guest:   Kristin Smedley is Co-Founder and CEO of the only patient organization in the world for people living with the blindness her two sons are affected by, CRB1 LCA/RP. The Curing Retinal Blindness Foundation has raised over 4 million dollars and achieved a National Rare Eye Disease Awareness Day.  That legislation, H.R. #625, was the first in US history to be submitted in Braille and it advocates for better resources for blind and visually impaired Americans. Kristin partnered with Spark Therapeutics to help achieve the first ever FDA approved gene therapy to treat an inherited retinal disease in the United States. She has done a TEDx Talk in New York City to change perceptions of blindness and she partnered with Comcast media to spread awareness of the inclusive X1 product. Kristin is author of the bestselling book Thriving Blind: Stories of Real People Succeeding Without Sight and a new children's book, What I Can Be Is Up To Me. Kristin co-founded ThrivingBlindAcademy.org to solve the employment, literacy, and financial crisis in the blind community.  She is Co-Creator of the short film, The Great Equalizer, that addresses the unemployment crisis of the blind.     Ways to connect with Kristin:   Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristinsmedley/ Twitter https://twitter.com/KristinSmedley Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thrivingblind Instagram https://www.instagram.com/kristinsmedley/   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi, welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. I'm really looking forward to our guest today Kristin Smedley because she has two sons who are blind, I'm not prejudiced or anything like that, of course, but nevertheless, yeah. Nevertheless, she's got some interesting stories to tell. And she has been involved in doing a variety of things, including influencing Washington dealing with forming organizations, and we're gonna get into all that. So I will not talk anymore. But Kristen, let's just start with you. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. Oh,   Kristin Smedley ** 01:55 thanks so much for having me. I'm I'm a big fan of yours. And I'm happy to be here and chat. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:03 thanks for for coming on. Well, tell us a little bit about you first, Gordon growing up the early Christian Christian as it were.   Kristin Smedley ** 02:14 The early Christian all those years ago, law I O in   Michael Hingson ** 02:18 a galaxy far far away.   Kristin Smedley ** 02:21 I am a born and raised Philly girl. I have my fillies hat on for those that are watching this on video. And I was one of those kids, Michael that I went for a lot of stuff I had success. In almost every area of my life. I was raised by parents in I'm learning as an adult that I was raised in unconditional love. And I believe I've said it a lot that I believe that's what sets us up with a foundation to thrive. So I had a good support system to get out there and try stuff and go after dreams and, and I was sports school. I mean, you name it. I had a great time with it. But I will above I will admit that above all things I was a I was a planner, you know, and a list maker and a check it off the list, kind of person. So I really liked making plans, achieving them celebrating and going on to the next thing. I've I've played soccer my whole life. I still play actually, I'm going to be 52 And just last year, I perfected my left foot kick. So I figure you know, I'm a quick study, right.   Michael Hingson ** 03:38 But But you weren't invited to New Zealand for the World Cup this year. Hmm.   Kristin Smedley ** 03:42 Weird, right. And I was just looking at the at the pay rate of the top 10 Women's players and and I wasn't on there and I'm nowhere near that pay rate. So what's that about? Yeah, really. I've been playing longer than them.   Michael Hingson ** 03:53 So they're I don't know how to count for something.   Kristin Smedley ** 03:56 But yeah, I was very I was competitive and and love sports. And you know, being a Philly person. I don't know many people in our town that aren't Philly sports people. But I had a good time. I have four brothers, it was a crazy house. Very big family, lots of cousins. And, you know, just a typical, typical kind of kid growing up with dreams to be a teacher achieved all of that. And nothing, nothing really nothing really derailed plans at all until it did. Well.   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 And then it wasn't so much derailed. But it also goes to show that sometimes plans need to change. So along the way you you got a husband or whatever and, and did all that sort of stuff. I assume   Kristin Smedley ** 04:46 I did all the things that that everybody did. Right. And I mean, back then it was I mean like I said I'm going to be 52 Back then there wasn't a whole lot of of options. that that girls like me grew up with as as careers. My family was like there was absolutely no way that there was a future in soccer or sports for women back then. But I was I knew I was going to be a teacher from the time I was five years old. I am one of those bizarre people that just knew it from when I was very young. I would I would set up my my four brothers. In my dad's workshop at the back of our basement. He had this chalkboard and I would bring home the extra handouts from teachers at school and I would I would have my know why my brothers sat and did that. With me. I'd hand stuff out and I have them writing on the board.   Michael Hingson ** 05:40 They tolerated you.   Kristin Smedley ** 05:42 They sure did tolerate that's a great word, because they're still doing that.   Michael Hingson ** 05:46 I'm just gonna ask you if they still do that. They still tolerate   Kristin Smedley ** 05:49 me. They don't sit and let me hit him. They don't sell them handouts anymore lectures   Michael Hingson ** 05:52 anymore. Yeah, well, what so what did you teach? When you when you grew up and started teaching?   Kristin Smedley ** 05:58 I was an elementary school teacher.   Michael Hingson ** 06:01 Yes, it was my wife. I   Kristin Smedley ** 06:03 loved it. I just my whole life. I wanted to do that. And then when I was in the classroom, oh, boy, did I have a good time with that?   Michael Hingson ** 06:15 What? What grade did you want to teach? Or what grade did you find? Was your favorite grade?   Kristin Smedley ** 06:21 Well, that's it Sure. I will say first. And third, I never would have thought when I was when I was planning to be a teacher. I thought second grade was where it was that like that was where I really wanted to land. And I remember student teaching first grade, and I the first week. I remember coming coming back to the house, I lived in with a bunch of my friends at college. And they were like, they thought I had caught like a massive flu or something that I was exhausted my exhausted five days with first graders. And I said, I remember saying to my roommates, you even have to include in your directions not to eat the paste. To be very specific with first graders, but I love the fact that that first graders, just they kind of believe what you tell them. You know, they haven't really formed their their own individual personality. Some of them have, but most of them are along for a really fun ride, you know, third grade, though, they start developing their own personalities and the things that they they know that they want to do. But you're still cool. Third graders still think that teachers are cool. Fourth grade, they start to go maybe not. So I wanted to stay. I wanted to stay in the cool zone. My   Michael Hingson ** 07:42 wife loves third grade, she thought that that was the best grade to teach. Definitely the earlier grades. But she loved third grade the best because as you said, kids started to develop a personality, but you could affect it. You could teach them they would listen. But when you got beyond that, especially when you got to sixth and seventh grade, much less high school, of course, that got to be a real challenge. Oh,   Kristin Smedley ** 08:06 yeah. Oh, yeah. I have one of my best friends. We actually met at college orientation. She's taught middle school science for her whole career. And I'm like, Man, are we different? I couldn't I could not. I wouldn't accomplish anything with middle schoolers, but first and third grade. I'm your girl. That was a good time. I   Michael Hingson ** 08:28 suppose the idea of middle school science, though, is if you do interesting experiments, and you do things that they don't expect that is because they haven't really learned about a lot of that stuff. You can sort of keep their interest.   Kristin Smedley ** 08:43 Yeah, you know what, that's a that's a really good point. Because Stacy has kept it, she think makes things incredibly interesting. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, she I've there's been times we've been sitting in and hanging out drinking wine, and she'll start showing me this, this PowerPoint of like, scientific stuff. And I'm like, and she's so into it. I'm thinking, okay, now I get it. I know why. No, I think kids were into it for all those years. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 09:11 But she's got the knack of being able to make it interesting for the kids. And of course, that's the issue. Right. Right. Right. And you're still teaching third grade in as you said, the cool zone. So that helps a lot. But you know, I, I know what you're saying. I remember. Oh, gosh, now it's been about 18 years ago, I was doing a talk in San Francisco. And I went to the school it was an elementary school K through six and the whole the whole school was there was an assembly and the teacher said Now look, you can't talk more than 15 minutes they will not sit and listen to you. Now we're sitting there going, just wait So of course, I come out with my guide, dog Roselle. If that isn't going to keep kids interested, give me a break. So like about 40 minutes after we started talking all about dogs and I talked a little bit about the World Trade Center, of course. But it was mostly what the dog did and how guide dogs work. And they all sat there and rapt attention. Then I finally opened the door to questions. And as I tell people, there's no question that anyone can ask me today that's off limits, because this third grade kid gets up a guy, right, a boy. And his question was, how do blind people have six? Oh, my God. And so, you know, no questions off limits? Well, I'm not dumb. I just said the same way everybody else does. And if you want to know more, you go ask your parents. You know, I'm not an idiot. But but you know, there's no question off limits. I've remembered that story ever since. But then the teachers came up afterwards. And they said, We don't know how you did it. And I said, it's the dog. And it's talking about the dog. And even the sixth graders were all interested. And, of course, everybody wanted to come and talk to the dog. So after it was over, I said at the end that if anybody wants to come up and visit with the puppy dog, they are welcome to do that. I knew Roselle very well. Roselle was one of those dogs who had discovered the scientific principle of maximum petting area, she would lay down on the floor and stretch out every appendage as far as she could to get as many people petting her at one time as and she loved it sweet. And, and all of my guide dogs have been that way. They and I wouldn't want it any other way. You know, the harness was off, and they just all love it. And the teachers kept an eye on things, but still, everyone got to come up and spend some time with Rosella. And she thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Sliced bread too, but you know. But yeah, third graders, my wife always loved third graders and, and we've talked about it a lot. My teaching was at the high school level, I got a secondary teaching credential ended up going into other jobs. But I have my secondary teaching credential and, and taught, and I've actually had kids from my classes come up to me like 10 years later, and say, Do you remember me? And the voices of well, of course, all change. And I don't know, well, like one guy. I'm Marty, I was an eighth grader in your algebra one class in high school. And I remember coming into class and talking with you and solving problems with you. And Marty was actually, one day asked me a question, and I didn't know the answer. I just didn't happen to remember it. And I said, I'll go find out the answer, but I don't know it. And then the next day, I came in with the answer, but Marty did as well. And I said, alright, you come up and write it on the board. My master teacher said, That was incredibly smart, you did the best thing you could do, because these kids will know if you're blowing smoke. The fact that you said that you didn't know, scored you so many points. And that's really true. And it's I think is true today, and anything that we do, rather than bluffing your way through. It's better to be honest. I   Kristin Smedley ** 13:23 totally agree. And kids can, they can definitely. They can definitely tell. So every time Oh, yeah. No   Michael Hingson ** 13:33 doubt about it every single time they can tell those things. Well, so you taught and how long did you teach? A   Kristin Smedley ** 13:41 few years. And then I at the time I was married, we moved to Chicago. And that was after an extremely challenging third grade year was a great group of kids. But one of the remember at the end of that year, saying if I could survive that year, I can survive anything. I never should have said that out loud, because then all kinds of things happened. But I ended up going which was pretty cool. I want to take a break from the classroom for a little bit and was working with the Department of Ed and this is how old I am now that was back when we would go in and teach teachers and principals how to use technology in the classroom.   Michael Hingson ** 14:26 You're probably a lot of them will still need that but I hear you   Kristin Smedley ** 14:28 oh yeah, we actually organized big educational conferences and and it's funny how my life has gone because I said I always I had planned to be a teacher always wanted to be a teacher stayed in the teaching profession. But then as I watch everything that unfolded like those, planning those conferences and working with teams that were were in house and remote like it's all the things I'm doing now. All of those experiences gave me gave me experience As in being able to do the stuff I do now. So I always say to people, you know, when when, you know, when when you seem to have a roadblock, or are taking a different path for a little while, or maybe making a right turn where you thought you're going straight pay attention, because because every experience gives you tools for stuff that's coming later. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 and the, I think most successful people are the ones who realize that, and who can actually trace back and remember when they learned those tools and what they learned, I know that I believe our lives are really comprised of all the choices that we make. And all too often we forget the choices we make. And I think it's important. And I worked very hard at remembering what led me to where I am. And it doesn't mean that it was bad. Even if it didn't turn out the way I expected to. There's still things you'll learn along the way. Yeah,   Kristin Smedley ** 15:56 you know, I'll even take that a step further and say, I'm realizing now like, like, literally, within the past seven, eight months, when, when a sidestep or something or setback happens, I now pay attention in the moments of new things that I need to learn new perspectives that I need to have my eyes open to, like, instead of waiting until later, like I always did. Now I'm actually on the one of my friends, Chip Baker says, grow through your go through. So when you're going through something, what is what are all the growth opportunities that you can have your eyes open to and I'm telling you, it makes it makes it not that it takes struggle away or stress away, but it makes it a heck of a lot easier.   Michael Hingson ** 16:43 It does. Because everything that you do is a learning experience, no matter whether you think you learned something or not. You did. And, and just we don't pay nearly as much attention to that, which is not not really the way it ought to be. I love that go through your growth. grow through your go through. Yeah, tongue twister, but still. Well, so you've referred to it a whole bunch of times. So things sort of started to make you deviate and you had sudden unexpected changes. Tell us about some of that, if you would. Yeah,   Kristin Smedley ** 17:21 you know, I was at a point in my life where the Christian in the year 2000, I can tell you that Christian of 2023, I'm not sure that they would be friends. Because Christian back then had. I mean, like I said, I had planned, I had planned to be a teacher, I plan to be successful, I plan to get married everything I accomplished everything I had, you know, gotten the degree landed the job, married the guy at the got the big house, bought the brand new SUV. And, and my final not necessarily final dream, but my biggest dream of all was finally coming to fruition to fruition. And that was becoming a mom. And I have to tell you, Michael, I had an incredible Mom, I have I have a wonderful role model for mom and my grandmother, her mom was wonderful. And I was surrounded by a lot of people that were really good moms. And I of course, being competitive, couldn't wait to be a mom and do even better, right? Like I was even going to be even better than all of them. And, you know, most people they find out they're pregnant, and they're like, I just want a healthy baby. Right? And then and that's what I did. And then by when you're me by like month eight, it's Oh, is he going to be a pitcher for the Phillies or quarterback for the Eagles? Right? And is he? You know, will college really go to and and you know, you're envisioning all of the things. And when he was born, he was Michael was born in January of 2000. And on our street. Now, if you remember back then it was y2k was happening. And this was January, like we survived the computers, right. But there was I didn't even realize it at the time. There were so many people trying to have a y2k baby. So, on my street in January, there was like, eight people had babies within eight days of each other. It was crazy. Crazy. So everyone was in the hoopla of new babies and and, you know, the hospital stays and we would all be we weren't necessarily outside in Chicago in January, but we'd be in each other's Kitchens talking about all the things and that book, What to Expect When You're Expecting we knew every line of every page and, and all that stuff and talked about everything. And then I started noticing something about Michael was different from the other kids and I had gone back to work and had him a friend of mine who's a nurse was babysitting him every day. And I said to her Is it weird that When, when you lay him down on his back, his eyes swirl around and disappear. And she said, yeah, it is weird. You need to have that checked out. And after a few weeks of of no answers, and lots and lots and lots of tests, we finally flew home to Philly, and got an appointment with a specialist at Children's Hospital Philadelphia. And that's where that's where I heard a sentence that I had not planned for. And that's when he said to me, Kristen, your son is blind. And, you know, the planner in me that was not in the plans like valedictorian, summa cum laude, you know, professional athlete, those were the plans. And in that moment, I gotta tell you this, this, I can say it now I was embarrassed about this for years, but since my kids are successful, and I, I turned out, okay, I can tell you my first question to that doctor was like, I was trying to consider how blind I didn't understand blindness, right. And I said, Willie, play baseball. Can you imagine that? That doctor probably tells that story at parties all the time. at conferences with other ophthalmologist right was the dumbest question you ever heard? Yeah, I was. I said, Well, we play baseball. I was trying to get it in my mind. I just had an absolutely zero knowledge of blindness. And the doctor, of course, said no, he's not going to play baseball. And it was like everything. Willie drive. Now, will you go to school? Probably Probably not a regular school, all the things. And I said, Oh, my gosh, well, what is he going to do? And the doctor said, I have no idea but good luck. Now, oh, that was nice. Right? You know, and I, I'm like, Well, that was 23 years ago when that happened. But it's still happening. Doctors are still saying, Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. I have one of my friends that has choroideremia. He says, doctors are saying, Go home go blind. We got nothing for you. So we can get into that later. But well, we can because   Michael Hingson ** 22:00 it's absolutely worth doing. Doctors still believe that if they can't save your eyesight, they're failures. ophthalmology, schools don't teach the eyesight really isn't the only game in town, which doesn't mean you don't try to save eyesight. But eyesight is not the only game in town. And we don't deal with that nearly enough.   Kristin Smedley ** 22:18 Yeah, yeah, that was I've, I've often talked with, with folks about the fact that you know that there's that first do no harm for doctors. And I think it is, it is more than harmful to not send a family on their way with some kind of resources or, or one resource. that's ultimately why I ended up writing my first book, I'm like, if no one's handing over, if there's no resource to hand them, we're going to make a resource to hand over. But yeah, that's where I started. And I was actually just talking with somebody yesterday about this concept in terms of parenting, I believe now, when I heard those words, and you know, heard good luck, I literally crashed to the floor and all of my dreams had crashed to the floor. And I had no education, knowledge experience with blindness. I will say, I think the greatest thing that happened to me in my life, was that all of my dreams for my kids crash to the floor. Because when I'm noticing even even myself, I do have a sighted daughter also. With kids, I'm I'm seeing our biggest struggles, their biggest struggles and stress come from, they're walking away around with carrying the weight of their own dreams and ambition. But they also have ours on top of them and I one of the greatest things that ever happened to me and my kids was that everything that I had planned for them was eliminated because I didn't think it was possible and I had to I had to literally just I said to the boys I'm gonna I'm gonna get you what you need and follow your lead because I have no idea where this is going. Thank God thank God it wasn't there wasn't anything that I had intended for them that they went after at because that would have been such a limited life when I looked back on their on their where they're at now. So   Michael Hingson ** 24:17 what caused Michaels blindness.   Kristin Smedley ** 24:21 So we will find out later that the umbrella disease it's a it's an early retinitis pigmentosa it's Leber's congenital amaurosis, and we didn't find I didn't find out until oh nine that it's the CRB one gene causing it. Okay. Yeah. So and with with each pregnancy now for all the math minds out there you'll love this part and everyone else just hang in there because I don't talk about math all that long. I do have lip gloss on so I don't do math and statistics when I wear lip gloss. It's a rule that I have, but To the with CRB one LCA, there's a 25% chance with each pregnancy that the child will be affected. Now, optimistic Kristin, which people have said that my my memoir could be titled delirious optimist, heard 25% chance and stop listening. So I was like, well, I already you know, one in four babies, I already had one. So we're good, you know. And then I remember one of the specialists was like no Christian with each pregnancy. So it took it took me a while to get my head around how I was going to raise Michael. But I have to say ultimately, and and I believe the statistics are still that most LCA families there's I think 30 genes now identified in LCA. But most LCA families, once they have that baby, the LCA child, they don't have any after that. Because most people don't want to hear a second diagnosis or don't want to experience a second diagnosis. I was quite optimistic. But when I was really weighing all of it, to be honest, I thought, I started interviewing people, I'm a little bit of a nerd like that, like, I want to have as much information as I possibly can. And I talk to everybody that I possibly can. And I went and talked to people that I knew that were only children, because I couldn't get my mind. I couldn't get my head around blindness, but I could not get my head around an only child. And heard pros and cons of it and everything. And I thought ultimately, I would have a harder time raising a child that was a single child, then raising a child that couldn't see I figured I could figure out blindness much faster and better than I could figure out how to have a an only child. It just I guess it was just, you know, I was what 28 At that time and, and my experience had just been a big family was all I knew. And gosh, we I mean, it was crazy. But boy, did we have a heck of a lot of fun with cousins and everything. So you know, ultimately, I just I was like, let's let's go for it. And I was like, come on, what are the chances really? Like, I'm always in that 75% camp. I'm always on the better end of statistics, right? Oh, my goodness. And then and then. A family member always says with a very cynical tone that we hit the lottery twice, because Mitchell was diagnosed with CRB one LCA also. But I will say that I do say we hit the lottery. Three times, all three of my kids are extraordinary human beings. And I can't even imagine if if it was if I had an only child, I mean, I love Michael. He's great. But the dynamics of what all three of them have brought to my world are just incredible. And they're all different. Oh, boy, are they all different? The one retina specialist in Boston said after a day of testing, he goes Chris to any experience the boys for the day. He said they are different down to their retinas. Even the retinas aren't the same all.   Michael Hingson ** 28:19 So now we measure a difference by our retinas. Okay, and works. You know, but going back to what we talked about earlier, the whole issue of how the medical profession deals with it. It is so frustrating. I mean, you, you read the underdog. I read that years ago. Yeah. So you, you read my story. And the doctors told my parents that they should just send me to a home because no child who is blind could ever amount to anything. And my parents said no. And we we went from there, I don't know, never really talked about their fears. But I think if I had asked my parents tell me about your fears, they would have said no, we just assumed you would grow up to do whatever you chose to do. I think the fears were, were there in one way or another. But they just felt that. So all right, you're blind. We'll deal with it. And they were risk takers by any standard. But I don't even think they would classify themselves as risk takers. They were very unusual in the way they approached it, but they did. And the fact is that I got to grow up and do the things I wanted to do. And I always wanted to teach, but I ever ended up actually doing teaching in the classroom past student teaching. But I learned along the way that when I was confronted with a situation where I would either lose a job or go from doing scientific human factor studies into sales and chose to, as I love to say lower my standards and go from side It's the sales that in reality, UI though, in reality sales is if you do it, right, more teaching than anything else in the world, it's all about teaching. And it's all about helping people understand. But it's also because of that, about listening. And it's, it's important to do all of that. But the fact is that blind kids have as much opportunity to grow, or should have as much opportunity to grow and be whatever they choose, as anyone else. And part of the burden that we face is the prejudice that everyone has about blindness.   Kristin Smedley ** 30:39 You know what that that's, that's, oh, my gosh, I'm taking a deep breath, because it is so frustrating to me that in this day and age, that that bias is still there with with all of the you know, you feel like you do all this advocacy and your stories out there. And my social media platforms are huge. And there's all these other stories out there, and people still have no idea I just did an event here in in my town where my boys have grown up and done all kinds of things. And we are I mean, you're, you're kinda it's hard to not be famous in a small town when you got two blind kids. I mean, everybody knows who we are, everyone has seen all the stuff that they do. And I did an event with a short film that I just co created about the bias against blindness, and hiring people that are blind. And after the film, people that have watched, I mean, elected officials that I know very well, incredibly smart, successful. People were coming up to me saying, Oh, my gosh, I had no idea that blank, people could do all the things and I recite, but you you had two examples in front of you for two decades. How is that possible? I guess they figured my kids were some anomaly or I was constantly opening doors for them. I don't know. But they were blown away. And I was, it was a weird, I don't know what the word is for it. I have to have to go into chat GPT to give me some words for this. But it's it was like angry and happy at the same time. They're not angry, astonished. Yeah. And happy at the same time that the 20 Minute. Video got through to them. But I thought how could you not know. But that's that is how it is?   Michael Hingson ** 32:22 Well, you know, and I joined the National Federation of the Blind in 1972. It's a consumer organization, I'm sure you've heard of it. And it does a lot of things. But even with a lot of blind consumers, who have adopted a philosophy that blindness isn't the problem, we are not having a lot of success, at changing people's attitudes, not nearly the success that we have to have, in order to truly make it possible for us to have the same opportunities as everyone else. And the consumer organizations can help they do help. The National Federation of the Blind, and its legal efforts, changed the insurance industry so that blind people could buy insurance, you know, back in the 1980s, no blind or other person with a disability, physical disability could buy insurance because the insurance industry said you have a higher mortality rate, you're a higher risk. And wow happened was that somebody came along and said, You do everything based on scientific data and evidence, Where's the proof? And they said, Well, we have it, but they could never produce it because it didn't really exist. It was all based on prejudice. So by around 1985, legislation had been passed in every state saying you can't discriminate unless you got the proof. But the fact is, it was still there. There's still the attitudes and even that didn't deal with it. And I think part of the if I were to say one thing that doesn't happen that needs to really make a difference is we've got to become more part of the conversation, the whole human dialogue. And we're just not even some of the so called Disability experts. Don't push enough. We need to be in the conversation a lot more. Oh,   Kristin Smedley ** 34:14 I 100% agree and and we also need to be in every facet of life that sighted people are in right I think that's why I'm so passionate with, with stories with with, especially the children's book that I just put out and film and Hollywood, I tell you this, I put a post on Twitter, or x, whatever it's called these days. Yeah, I'm just gonna go with Twitter. Another story. Oh, my. Anyway, I put a post about my son Mitch, who's home for the summer from college. In our home, we are addicted to the show suits. I don't know if you follow that show.   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 I don't I've heard of it. I gotta watch it.   Kristin Smedley ** 34:58 I gotta Oh my gosh, one Now it's on. It's on Netflix. And we're we're rewatching the whole series. We watched it through COVID. And now we're rewatching it and it is I mean, it's attorneys and it's it's egos and it's just great. We love it. And we all have our favorite characters will Mitchell who just turned 20 years old, literally bounced, like jumped out of his stool. He sits on this little this funny little stool, the cracks, we have this big, tall 20 year old with an attitude right sits on this little stool in front of this giant TV and is glued to the show, jumps off the stool and bounces into the kitchen yelling mom. Netflix put audio description on suits. Yeah, he you would have thought that he just got like his the the bike he always wanted for Christmas, you know, like he was so excited. So I put a post out on Twitter that said, Oh my gosh, that feeling when your son bounces in the room and I put a thing about how him announcing that Netflix, put audio description on suits. And I said, Thank you so much Netflix, for being inclusive, whatever. I did a hashtag that the suits, I didn't realize how passionate the suits community is about that hashtag. It is now I think it's at 7000 people it's reached, people went crazy. We didn't know that was a thing. Oh my gosh, tell us more. What is audio description. And then um, that was like this teachable moment. But people have absolutely no idea that something like that is out there. But it also, you know, it went back to my point of when people that are blind are involved in all facets of life. That's when the education really starts to spread. And that's when perspectives are shifted. And that's when I see the bias disappear. I mean, my when my boys oh my gosh, I will never actually I'm writing the screenplay now for the moment. And I just wrote out the moment, the scene that we experienced when Michael told me, he wanted to play Little League baseball in our town when he was nine. I mean, he was playing blind baseball in the city. And but he was going to public school. And he wanted in on those lunchtime conversations where all the kids are screaming at each other of whose team cheated in which arm sock and all that stuff, right? And he's like, I want to play baseball, I said you do play baseball. And he's like, No, I want to play baseball here in this league where all my friends play. And when I walked up on registration day to baseball registration. When I talk about this, I should actually have like a button I hit with music that's like, you know, it's more than Disney World and all these happy cheering people that are there for registration. And Michael walked in with his white cane and said he wanted to play baseball. And as grouchy and grumpy as the Commissioner is of a person, I will give them the credit that he did give it some thought and long story short, Michael ended up on a baseball team. And in his second year, they won the championship like they were the worst team in the league and came back and won the championship and, and he was an all star and led the team in RBIs. And there was a dad that I knew was not happy. Michael was on that team at the first practice that came up to me after that championship when and he said, he said Kristen, you know, when all of our kids started this season, and came together, they were all just a bunch of spoiled kids to get everything they want. And he said one by one, your son changed all of them. And that changed all of us and watching him has been phenomenal. And I thought that's what it is. It's it's when it's when we're out in the world in all facets of life, doing life, that we change those perceptions and those biases. So so I want people that are blind and visually impaired and their parents and everybody around them, get out there in the world. And like you said, be in the conversations be in the experiences. And if we can, if we can multiply that then I think that we can really get rid of this bias a lot faster.   Michael Hingson ** 39:11 So how did Michael play baseball? Well, interesting.   Kristin Smedley ** 39:14 Now I'm in so many conversations, you know, in the ENI stuff and workplaces and we keep saying reasonable accommodation. I'm like what I didn't know it was what we were I was asking at the time, but it was reasonable accommodations I we weren't changing rules. We didn't change much. But he was able to hit off a tee now this is 910 11 year olds, they were they were kid pitching hit off a tee. And he played in the outfield with another with another guy. That guy would feel the ball and Michael had to throw it in to where the play was okay. Then I I've actually spoken at some sports stuff. And you know on the topic of parents and and sports I say I always say listen for coaches. If you have problem with parents and vocal parents and how, you know, parents have become a nightmare at youth sports, get a blind kid on your team. Because when Michael we get the ball when that guy would hand it to him in the outfield, he had to listen to one voice to know where to throw the ball so that the kids learned quick and they shut the parents down even quicker. No, but as soon as he got that ball, it would be silent. And one person if the kid if the play was at second, that kid would stand there and call Michael's name, and he could throw that ball to him on a dime. It was really cool. Now, for people that are listening or thinking, Okay, at this point, you know, Michael's nine and a half 10. And I'm saying to him, you have to hit off a tee he did not he did not initially, he wasn't on board with that. He was like, no one's hitting off a tee. That's, that's, that's stupid. No one, there is no tee. In this in this league, I want to swing at the pitchers like everybody else. And it was an interesting conversation that night that I said, you know, you can do that if you're against the tee. And you think that that's what you should be doing. But let's think about this. Those I've seen in this age group pitch, there is no consistency. It's not like it's gonna they're even going to try to help you out and direct that pitch, you know? And I said, and you still don't, we're not changing the rule, you still only get three strikes and you're out water. And Michael's a very scientific, math minded kind of kid. I said, what's the probability that you're going to hit that ball with that kid pitching it. So then he went into a whole thing about velocity, and oh, my god, he like nerded out on science about the ball not moving and an object not moving. And I was like, guess what I've turned his light off. I'm like, good night. We'll talk about this tomorrow. And the next morning, we sat there eating breakfast. And he said, he said, I'm not happy about having to hit off a tee. But I don't want to, I don't want to let the team down. And I don't want to be that guy that they can count on will be an out every time I get to the plate. So he did, he had to set up the tee on his own, put the ball on there. And and he got, you know, if there was if he missed it three times, he was out. He never did miss three times he got on base almost every single time he actually led the team in RBIs. That very first season and I said you know you didn't contribute by hitting a home run. But you sure did set everybody else up to cross home plate.   Michael Hingson ** 42:33 I presume he had to practice a lot though, to be able to hit it and make good contact.   Kristin Smedley ** 42:38 Oh, oh my gosh, the practice. And I will say this for parents that are listening. We did I want to make sure I re emphasize he did start in blind baseball. Like he had people that were trained in how to teach a blind child baseball. So he knew the mechanics of swinging the bat connecting with the ball, throwing the ball, like he knew all that. And then we just did I mean, I played softball, my whole my whole childhood. So I have some skill there. And we just practiced and practiced and practice and we would get to the games early and run the bases run the bases just so we had that memory of where the those bases were, when he ran his his coach the first year this guy Rich, who was absolutely tremendous. He didn't he just he was on board with everything. But he did not want him out there running on his own and having a sound box or something at the bases. That was where he drew the line. He was like he was too nervous. So I said okay, you know, he was on board with everything else. Let's let's not have them have a stroke here. Let's Okay, so rich would run with them. But as Michael got more and more confident and really knew where those bases were, he was getting faster and faster. And then there was fewer so play in the one game, and it was a tight game. And the kid the kid just clocked this ball and everyone on base Michael was at first the bases were loaded. Now they're running and they're rounding the bases. And Michael enricher running and they turn third and Michael just he just guns it for home and he outran rich so and then all the parents instead of cheering for Michael they were cheering for rich to run faster.   Michael Hingson ** 44:20 Well, you know Rich needs all the help he   Kristin Smedley ** 44:22 can get to was so funny. It was so quiet. And then he looked like we were like, oh god, somebody better get rich some oxygen and I'm like, You think maybe it's time that my   Michael Hingson ** 44:34 zone? Yeah. And what happened?   Kristin Smedley ** 44:39 He did what he ended up doing he would go to like second and just call his name once but he was he hadn't he had a valid concern. He was nervous that if Michael You know, yeah, would do it himself and was on second waiting for a hit. He would never be able to duck. If the ball was coming at him and we didn't I didn't want to rely on on a nine year old to be standing there and tell him So we just had to coach out of the base and it worked out just fine.   Michael Hingson ** 45:02 And, you know, we get back to the whole discussion that you sort of alluded to a reasonable accommodation there. The reality is that there's no reason not to allow for accommodations to permit people who are different than we to be able to perform the same thing. And, again, we we really, collectively, I think, misjudge it a lot. But the fact is that Michael obviously proved he could do it. Now what admits do, did he play baseball or any of that?   Kristin Smedley ** 45:39 Oh, he sure did. He a few years later was on the exact same team. So that was Michael for his first season. The second season is when they won the championship. And I remember watching the whole thing unfold. And then when the whole town was on our sideline, watching and everything that happened, I thought, oh my gosh, this this is like, this is like the feel good movie of the year. And I would talk about I'm like, I gotta make this into a movie. Mitch played a few years later, this same orange Mets team, we are Phillies people, the fact that I have had two kids on teams called the Mets was brutal. But anyway, he was on that team. And, and he won the championship. Also, Mitchell was a completely different. He's a completely different kind of kid made a completely different impact, equally huge impact. But he was they had to figure out real quick about him running the bases because he wanted to steal second, he didn't want to just run the second one, there was a hit. Yeah, he wanted to steal bases, he figured out he was actually the fastest base runner on the Team Mitchell is quick. And he has an even if it's even possible, and even better spatial memory. Or maybe because he has this little see had this little sliver of vision in the in the right corner of his right eye. And if he tilts his head, just so and he was so much smaller and closer to the ground, maybe he was able to navigate the bass line a little better. But he did the same thing. He hit off a tee. And he played the outfield. And I have this I have this incredible picture of him and his best friend Nick, on that team. And Nick's dad was the coach Mitchell, you know, Michael and Mitchell and Shay achieve everything they want in a day. Right? Michael will do it all by himself. I mean, if he was he was moving in Florida the other day, and I swear he was going to try to figure out a way to get a U haul on his own because he did not want to wait for somebody, right? He does, as much as he can all by himself accomplishes everything. And he's exhausted at the end of the day. Mitch uses every ounce of charm, good looks everything to get people to do things for him to accomplish once and he's so he's so crazy with it that that when they would him and his buddy would come in from the outfield. I have a picture of it. Mitchell would hop on Nick's back like Oh, Nick, my legs are tired. We've been out here the whole day. Give me a ride. And he could run with Michel   Michael Hingson ** 48:10 blindness issue? Nope.   Kristin Smedley ** 48:14 It's a laziness issue.   Michael Hingson ** 48:17 Now Oh, my goodness Michael doing today. You said Mitch was in college still. Yeah. Michael   Kristin Smedley ** 48:23 Michael graduated Penn State last year. And you know, I had said that one of my things I thought about was summa cum laude. And sure enough, he was summa cum laude from Penn State. And he had two majors, two minors and a business certificate. There were a couple of semesters that he took 28 credits, they now have a law and Penn State you can't do that. I said, if I get a second tuition bill, that they think there's two of you, you're gonna have to stop doing this. But he's, he was a communications and, and audio engineering, double major. And now he's at Disney. In, in a situation where it's only Michael, I always say I'm coming back in my next life is my son, Michael, because things work out for him in ways that are just unbelievable. But he My mom always says Michael wakes up every day expecting it to be the greatest day and everything to work out. And sure enough, that's what happens for him. But he started with Disney in the live entertainment, doing sound design and things like that. And then he had an opportunity to slide over to working in contracts, and he eventually wants to go to law school and be in copyright law and stuff like that. So he went, he's like, Oh, I could try that out for a little bit. So they're holding only Michael. They're holding his position, the first position while he tries the other one for six months and then decides what he wants to do. In this day and age where 70% of this community is unemployed. People aren't even going to work companies can't get people to work. And then they say to Michael Michaels, like I want to try this and you want to hang on to that. position in case they don't like it. And they said, sure they're loving them down there.   Michael Hingson ** 50:05 You know, you're speaking of Disney and you're talking about descriptions, descriptive audio descriptions. We got the Disney Channel, my wife and I signed up for Disney in 2019, because we wanted to watch Hamilton. And I assumed that it would be audio described and it was, but before I watched Hamilton, I decided, I want to go see one of my favorite Disney movies, if they haven't the sign of Zorro, which goes back to I think 1959 with Guy Williams. And it was audio described, Disney has done a wonderful job of putting in audio descriptions on everything. I haven't watched Davy Crockett yet with this, Parker, but I know it's going to be audio described. Oh, man, it's really amazing that they have done such a tremendous job of putting audio descriptions on the things that they do, which is wonderful.   Kristin Smedley ** 51:00 Oh, yeah. Well, he Michael said they are they are so majorly focused on accessibility and all that they're doing now, especially at the parks, and he's on committees and, and all kinds of things working on his ideas for it's actually how he got the job. He in his interview, you know, there's the whole thing in the blind community, whether you disclose or don't disclose your blindness in the interview. And I said to him, I go, of course, that we were coming out of the, you know, we were in in zoom times coming out of COVID, when he had that interview, and I said, Of course you it's your luck that you get to do a zoom interview, and they will never know Michael is very good at at setting up the camera and the lighting and looking straight on. So there was nothing to tell anybody physically, visually, that he's blind. And I said, Are you going to disclose you're not and he was like, I have no idea. And he was five minutes before the interview, he still wasn't sure what he was going to do. And it just, uh, conversely, he called me afterwards, he said, Well, I made the person cry. And I said, Oh, my God. He said that they he went, they went through all the technical questions. And then there was something to the effect of, of how can you make Disney an even better company? Or what can you really bring to the table, something along those lines? Well, I told a story about growing up. We used to go to the Disney Parks every year. And he said, one of the biggest reasons he loved going to the Disney Parks is that they thought about kids like him, they thought about people that access the world differently. So he could have a phenomenal experience just like his sighted friends, and they could talk a lot about everything that they got out of being at the parks, he didn't feel like he missed out on anything. And he said, he said but also, knowing what I know now and and, and the things that I know professionally, we can make it 10 times better for all abilities, disabilities, all different ways that people access the world. I mean, he said it much more eloquently than that. And it was absolutely magnificent. And, and he ne harped on the fact that it was because of his blindness, that he'd be the biggest asset because he really knew that the couple of tweaks that they needed to do. And then this woman ended up in tears because she said she had never heard somebody so passionate, and so confident that they could make the changes that would enhance the company. And she was in full belief that that would happen. So after he tells me this whole thing I said I'm so what you're saying is you disclosed.   Michael Hingson ** 53:34 It has always been a debate. And I realized, well as back in 1989. I had owned my own company for four years selling CAD computer aided design systems to architects. I didn't need to work the system. All I needed to know was how to work it. And I decided though eventually I was going to go back into the workforce. So my wife and I were looking at jobs, and we found this great one that sounded perfect. And we talked about do you say you're blind or not. And finally, I went off and I wrote a cover letter. And I decided I'm a sales guy. Sure I should be able to talk about and so I wrote, in the cover letter, I said, the most important thing that you need to know about me is that I'm blind. And the reason that's important is because I have as a blind person, have had to sell all of my life to convince people to let me buy a house, take a guide dog into places because we didn't have the ADA back then rent an apartment, go into grocery stores or do anything else that I wanted to do. So do you want to hire somebody who comes in for eight or 10 hours a day? And then they go home because the job is over? Or do you want to hire somebody who truly understands sales for the science and art that it is and sells 24 hours a day as a way of life? And I got the job because of that   Kristin Smedley ** 54:46 that's that's what I love. It's it's it's so many and I was I was the same way for so long until recently looking at it as Oh, I got it. I gotta convince these people that this It's okay. And my kids are okay. And it's going to be just I gotta convince them to give them the chance now I'm like, chance. Are you kidding me? Hiring someone like, like, my Michael gives you the competitive edge? I'm like, exactly. They've got skills they've been practicing oh my gosh, when everyone was talking about being resilient after COVID Michaels like if I hear resilient, one more stinking time, he's like, we have been resilient 57 times a day since the day we were born, like, oh my gosh, it was so funny. He's like, Oh, this 82 People are being resilient. Now.   Michael Hingson ** 55:32 It's a beautiful thing. You know, and we, we keep hearing, and I heard it so often after September 11, we got to get back to normal. And it took me a while to realize that's ridiculous. We can't get back to normal or it'll happen again, normal will never be the same. And I hear it after COVID and everything else. And we, we really need to, to look at things differently than we do. And we need to give everyone the opportunity to use their gifts, to be able to to thrive as much as they can. We talked about conversation, one of the things that I think we knew need to do collectively is to change words we use. I've never I've learned not to be a fan of the whole concept of blind and visually impaired. And I and I realized that my problem with visually impaired after thinking it through was twofold. One, just because I'm blind I'm not visually different visually has nothing to do with that's what the experts did, to screw it up and impaired compared to what why do I need to be compared with eyesight? So I believe that blind low vision is a much more accurate terminology. Deaf people realize that some time ago they will bristle or maybe eliminate you from the world. If you say hearing impaired, for the very reason, you know, visually impaired is is a horrible thing. But that continues to promote the attitude that we really need to change.   Kristin Smedley ** 56:56 Yeah, I 100% agree. And actually, when I'm when I was writing my children's book last summer, I wrote it and then it just came out a few months ago, I have a friend that was my educational consultant on it in terms of words and language. And it's geared specifically for first graders for six year olds. It's best not well, actually, it was funny because it was at school, it was this is how I love looking back on my journey and seeing where everything just aligned beautifully. And this is why I had said earlier, I really pay attention now when things happen to take it all in so that I don't have to wait 10 years to see the gain, as opposed to the loss. So yeah, when I was getting so frustrated in my work with with my first book, thriving blind was wonderful. I mean, it was, you know, 13 people that were role models for me and my boys, I'm sharing with the world. And so that opened a lot of doors to a lot of stages and a lot of conversations. And then you know, with the this unemployment statistics, and I do the short film to convince companies and adults, I felt like I've just I've worked 24 hours a day. And I'm still kind of banging my head against the wall trying to change the biases of adults. And I said to myself, What if the bias never happens in the first place? What if What if kids come into the world with a whole different story about blindness, just like the kids that grew up with my kids, those kids that grew up with my kids, they're out in the world, they'll meet a blind person, and I'm certain that they're like, what football team? Were you on? What position? Did you play in baseball? You know, how many college degrees you have, they have a whole different view of blindness than the rest of the world. So I said, How about if we did, if I do a children's book, that we tell them from the very beginning that differences so it's not that they don't matter? It's that it's what makes you unique, and it's what's inside of you and what you believe about yourself, is what matters because the world is going to tell you a whole bunch of different things. And so to the point of my educational consultant she was looking at it as making it educationally sound for to be in schools and align with curriculum and all that kind of stuff. But we went through every single word to make sure that every single word was empowering and not you know, there's no you don't the word disability isn't even in the book its abilities we say we all my the words are it's in first person about the child telling themself all this and it's about my abilities make me who make me me. It's there's nothing about this in there.   Michael Hingson ** 59:43 Well, what I've also realized is that there's nothing wrong with the term disability. It's a characteristic and the reality is disability doesn't need to mean lack of ability and sighted people Have as much a disability as blind people, except that since Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb in 1877, we've covered up your disability by making sure that you have light everywhere you go. But it doesn't change the fact that it's there. And we really don't deal with with the whole issue at all. But you know, I was in a hotel in March, and then the power went out. And so when it did, of course, everybody started to scream because they couldn't see and they were grabbing for their phones and flat or looking for flashlights, and all that proves my point. The fact is that disability doesn't mean a lack of ability. And we all have that characteristic, in one way or another. And it's high time that we start to move away from thinking and just because some people's characteristics are more visible than others, that they're less than we are, that's just not true. Yeah.   Kristin Smedley ** 1:00:54 Yeah. And honestly, when that message was delivered to my Michael, by way of Eric weimarer, the mountain climber when he was Michael was six, when he met Eric Eric had just come off Everest, back then. And was was being honored in the city of Philadelphia with this big award. And I took Michael down there to meet them. And I'm looking at my little Michael, right, and his little suit, he was he was short for his age. And I watched his, I watched the moment of him talking with Eric and realizing in his own little mind, oh, my gosh, this blind guy is the coolest, he's just like me, he just did the coolest thing. And I've never heard I've never, he never met a sighted person that climbed Everest, you know, we've never met anybody that cool. And this guy happened to be just like him. So in that moment, at six, Michael believes that anything was possible for him. And he listened Eric talks in the speech that he gave, and in the conversation with Michael, it was all about the tools that he had to, had to figure out like he was in full responsibility for, he took full responsibility to achieve that goal. And it was all on him to achieve it, and he believed he could do it, and he found people to help them. That was the message that Michael got that day. And it never wavered. It has never wavered in his mind that he, he believes that things are possible for him, he just has to go get the tools and build a team and do all the things. So I thought, Gosh, I need all six year olds, whether they're blind, sighted, deaf, whatever, to understand that, or to at least get the correct story. That what they can do in this world is up to them, not what other people think about them. And let's let's change that and put the correct story out with the little kids because I'm tired of changing adults minds. Much harder work, it's much easier. And because I taught first grade and was like, I was like a Broadway show with some of the books that I really love. But this book is just like going on a bear hunt, you know, and you're all these actions, and you're meeting these cool people. And then you don't even know that they're blind until the end of the story. Like it's just, you're riding a skateboard and, and you're climbing a mountain, you're painting a picture, like it's just really fun stuff. Because I also I feel like so much of the information that's there for people to get educated about blindness is boring, or it's like heavy, right? Like, it's, it's a lot for people to take in where I'm like, why isn't it just part of the regular story? You know, it's just a regular story happening. And oh, by the way, here's the tools that they use to be able to do that. Because they don't, they're, they don't use their eyes to see like, no big deal. No, but let's talk about that. You know, like, it's just simple and fun. And let's change the story from like I've been saying from the youngest sets of eyes. Is there an accessible version of the book? It's only printed in an accessible version. It's in print and Braille. It's in print in Braille. Yeah, that's the only format we're doing it in right now. Which is incredibly

At the AI Pioneers Summit we announced Latent Space Launchpad, an AI-focused accelerator in partnership with Decibel. If you're an AI founder of enterprise early adopter, fill out this form and we'll be in touch with more details. We also have a lot of events coming up as we wrap up the year, so make sure to check out our community events page and come say hi!We previously interviewed the founders of many developer productivity startups embedded in the IDE, like Codium AI, Cursor, and Codeium. We also covered Replit's (former) SOTA model, replit-code-v1-3b and most recently had Amjad and Michele announce replit-code-v1_5-3b at the AI Engineer Summit.Much has been speculated about the StackOverflow traffic drop since ChatGPT release, but the experience is still not perfect. There's now a new player in the “search for developers” arena: Phind.Phind's goal is to help you find answers to your technical questions, and then help you implement them. For example “What should I use to create a frontend for a Python script?” returns a list of frameworks as well as links to the sources. You can then ask follow up questions on specific implementation details, having it write some code for you, etc. They have both a web version and a VS Code integrationThey recently were top of Hacker News with the announcement of their latest model, which is now the #1 rated model on the BigCode Leaderboard, beating their previous version:TLDR Cheat Sheet:* Based on CodeLlama-34B, which is trained on 500B tokens* Further fine-tuned on 70B+ high quality code and reasoning tokens* Expanded context window to 16k tokens* 5x faster than GPT-4 (100 tok/s vs 20 tok/s on single stream)* 74.7% HumanEval vs 45% for the base modelWe've talked before about HumanEval being limited in a lot of cases and how it needs to be complemented with “vibe based” evals. Phind thinks of evals alongside two axis: * Context quality: when asking the model to generate code, was the context high quality? Did we put outdated examples in it? Did we retrieve the wrong files?* Result quality: was the code generated correct? Did it follow the instructions I gave it or did it misunderstand some of it?If you have bad results with bad context, you might get to a good result by working on better RAG. If you have good context and bad result you might either need to work on your prompting or you have hit the limits of the model, which leads you to fine tuning (like they did). Michael was really early to this space and started working on CommonCrawl filtering and indexing back in 2020, which led to a lot of the insights that now power Phind. We talked about that evolution, his experience at YC, how he got Paul Graham to invest in Phind and invite him to dinner at his house, and how Ron Conway connected him with Jensen Huang to get access to more GPUs!Show Notes* Phind* BigScience T0* InstructGPT Paper* Inception-V3* LMQL* Marginalia Nu* Mistral AI* People:* Paul Graham (pg)* Ron Conway* Yacine Jernite from HuggingFace* Jeff DelaneyTimestamps* [00:00:00] Intros & Michael's early interest in computer vision* [00:03:14] Pivoting to NLP and natural language question answering models* [00:07:20] Building a search engine index of Common Crawl and web pages* [00:11:26] Releasing the first version of Hello based on the search index and BigScience T0 model* [00:14:02] Deciding to focus the search engine specifically for programmers* [00:17:39] Overview of Phind's current product and focus on code reasoning* [00:21:51] The future vision for Phind to go from idea to complete code* [00:24:03] Transitioning to using the GPT-4 model and the impact it had* [00:29:43] Developing the Phind model based on CodeLlama and additional training* [00:32:28] Plans to continue improving the Phind model with open source technologies* [00:43:59] The story of meeting Paul Graham and Ron Conway and how that impacted the company* [00:53:02] How Ron Conway helped them get GPUs from Nvidia* [00:57:12] Tips on how Michael learns complex AI topics* [01:01:12] Lightning RoundTranscriptAlessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO of Residence and Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol AI. [00:00:19]Swyx: Hey, and today we have in the studio Michael Royzen from Phind. Welcome. [00:00:23]Michael: Thank you so much. [00:00:24]Alessio: It's great to be here. [00:00:25]Swyx: Yeah, we are recording this in a surprisingly hot October in San Francisco. And sometimes the studio works, but the blue angels are flying by right now, so sorry about the noise. So welcome. I've seen Phind blow up this year, mostly, I think since your launch in Feb and V2 and then your Hacker News posts. We tend to like to introduce our guests, but then obviously you can fill in the blanks with the origin story. You actually were a high school entrepreneur. You started SmartLens, which is a computer vision startup in 2017. [00:00:59]Michael: That's right. I remember when like TensorFlow came out and people started talking about, obviously at the time after AlexNet, the deep learning revolution was already in flow. Good computer vision models were a thing. And what really made me interested in deep learning was I got invited to go to Apple's WWDC conference as a student scholar because I was really into making iOS apps at the time. So I go there and I go to this talk where they added an API that let people run computer vision models on the device using far more efficient GPU primitives. After seeing that, I was like, oh, this is cool. This is going to have a big explosion of different computer vision models running locally on the iPhone. And so I had this crazy idea where it was like, what if I could just make this model that could recognize just about anything and have it run on the device? And that was the genesis for what eventually became SmartLens. I took this data set called ImageNet 22K. So most people, when they think of ImageNet, think of ImageNet 1K. But the full ImageNet actually has, I think, 22,000 different categories. So I took that, filtered it, pre-processed it, and then did a massive fine tune on Inception V3, which was, I think, the state of the art deep convolutional computer vision model at the time. And to my surprise, it actually worked insanely well. I had no idea what would happen if I give a single model. I think it ended up being 17,000 categories approximately that I collapsed them into. It worked so well that it actually worked better than Google Lens, which released its V1 around the same time. And on top of this, the model ran on the device. So it didn't need an internet connection. A big part of the issue with Google Lens at the time was that connections were slower. 4G was around, but it wasn't nearly as fast. So there was a noticeable lag having to upload an image to a server and get it back. But just processing it locally, even on the iPhones of the day in 2017, much faster. It was a cool little project. It got some traction. TechCrunch wrote about it. There was kind of like one big spike in usage, and then over time it tapered off. But people still pay for it, which is wild. [00:03:14]Swyx: That's awesome. Oh, it's like a monthly or annual subscription? [00:03:16]Michael: Yeah, it's like a monthly subscription. [00:03:18]Swyx: Even though you don't actually have any servers? [00:03:19]Michael: Even though we don't have any servers. That's right. I was in high school. I had a little bit of money. I was like, yeah. [00:03:25]Swyx: That's awesome. I always wonder what the modern equivalents kind of "Be my eyes". And it would be actually disclosed in the GPT-4 Vision system card recently that the usage was surprisingly not that frequent. The extent to which all three of us have our sense of sight. I would think that if I lost my sense of sight, I would use Be My Eyes all the time. The average usage of Be My Eyes per day is 1.5 times. [00:03:49]Michael: Exactly. I was thinking about this as well, where I was also looking into image captioning, where you give a model an image and then it tells you what's in the image. But it turns out that what people want is the exact opposite. People want to give a description of an image and then have the AI generate the image. [00:04:04]Alessio: Oh, the other way. [00:04:06]Michael: Exactly. And so at the time, I think there were some GANs, NVIDIA was working on this back in 2019, 2020. They had some impressive, I think, face GANs where they had this model that would produce these really high quality portraits, but it wasn't able to take a natural language description the way Midjourney or DALL-E 3 can and just generate you an image with exactly what you described in it. [00:04:32]Swyx: And how did that get into NLP? [00:04:35]Michael: Yeah, I released the SmartLens app and that was around the time I was a senior in high school. I was applying to college. College rolls around. I'm still sort of working on updating the app in college. But I start thinking like, hey, what if I make an enterprise version of this as well? At the time, there was Clarify that provided some computer vision APIs, but I thought this massive classification model works so well and it's so small and so fast, might as well build an enterprise product. And I didn't even talk to users or do any of those things that you're supposed to do. I was just mainly interested in building a type of backend I've never built before. So I was mainly just doing it for myself just to learn. I built this enterprise classification product and as part of it, I'm also building an invoice processing product where using some of the aspects that I built previously, although obviously it's very different from classification, I wanted to be able to just extract a bunch of structured data from an unstructured invoice through our API. And that's what led me to Hugnyface for the first time because that involves some natural language components. And so I go to Hugnyface and with various encoder models that were around at the time, I used the standard BERT and also Longformer, which came out around the same time. And Longformer was interesting because it had a much bigger context window than those models at the time, like BERT, all of the first gen encoder only models, they only had a context window of 512 tokens and it's fixed. There's none of this alibi or ROPE that we have now where we can basically massage it to be longer. They're fixed, 512 absolute encodings. Longformer at the time was the only way that you can fit, say, like a sequence length or ask a question about like 4,000 tokens worth of text. Implemented Longformer, it worked super well, but like nobody really kind of used the enterprise product and that's kind of what I expected because at the end of the day, it was COVID. I was building this kind of mostly for me, mostly just kind of to learn. And so nobody really used it and my heart wasn't in it and I kind of just shelved it. But a little later, I went back to HugMeFace and I saw this demo that they had, and this is in the summer of 2020. They had this demo made by this researcher, Yacine Jernite, and he called it long form question answering. And basically, it was this self-contained notebook demo where you can ask a question the way that we do now with ChatGPT. It would do a lookup into some database and it would give you an answer. And it absolutely blew my mind. The demo itself, it used, I think, BART as the model and in the notebook, it had support for both an Elasticsearch index of Wikipedia, as well as a dense index powered by Facebook's FAISS. I think that's how you pronounce it. It was very iffy, but when it worked, I think the question in the demo was, why are all boats white? When it worked, it blew my mind that instead of doing this few shot thing, like people were doing with GPT-3 at the time, which is all the rage, you could just ask a model a question, provide no extra context, and it would know what to do and just give you the answer. It blew my mind to such an extent that I couldn't stop thinking about that. When I started thinking about ways to make it better, I tried training, doing the fine tune with a larger BART model. And this BART model, yeah, it was fine tuned on this Reddit data set called Eli5. So basically... [00:08:02]Alessio: Subreddit. [00:08:03]Swyx: Yeah, subreddit. [00:08:04]Alessio: Yeah. [00:08:05]Michael: And put it into like a well-formatted, relatively clean data set of like human questions and human answers. And that was a really great bootstrap for that model to be able to answer these types of questions. And so Eli5 actually turned out to be a good data set for training these types of question answering models, because the question is written by a human, the answer is written by a human, and at least helps the model get the format right, even if the model is still very small and it can't really think super well, at least it gets the format right. And so it ends up acting as kind of a glorified summarization model, where if it's fed in high quality context from the retrieval system, it's able to have a reasonably high quality output. And so once I made the model as big as I can, just fine tuning on BART large, I started looking for ways to improve the index. So in the demo, in the notebook, there were instructions for how to make an Elasticsearch index just for Wikipedia. And I was like, why not do all of Common Crawl? So I downloaded Common Crawl, and thankfully, I had like 10 or $15,000 worth of AWS credits left over from the SmartLens project. And that's what really allowed me to do this, because there's no other funding. I was still in college, not a lot of money, and so I was able to spin up a bunch of instances and just process all of Common Crawl, which is massive. So it's roughly like, it's terabytes of text. I went to Alexa to get the top 1,000 websites or 10,000 websites in the world, then filtered only by those websites, and then indexed those websites, because the web pages were already included in Dump. [00:09:38]Swyx: You mean to supplement Common Crawl or to filter Common Crawl? [00:09:41]Michael: Filter Common Crawl. [00:09:42]Alessio: Oh, okay. [00:09:43]Michael: Yeah, sorry. So we filtered Common Crawl just by the top, I think, 10,000, just to limit this, because obviously there's this massive long tail of small sites that are really cool, actually. There's other projects like, shout out to Marginalia Nu, which is a search engine specialized on the long tail. I think they actually exclude the top 10,000. [00:10:03]Swyx: That's what they do. [00:10:04]Alessio: Yeah. [00:10:05]Swyx: I've seen them around, I just don't really know what their pitch is. Okay, that makes sense. [00:10:08]Michael: So they exclude all the top stuff. So the long tail is cool, but for this, that was kind of out of the question, and that was most of the data anyway. So we've removed that. And then I indexed the remaining approximately 350 million webpages through Elasticsearch. So I built this index running on AWS with these webpages, and it actually worked quite well. You can ask it general common knowledge, history, politics, current events, questions, and it would be able to do a fast lookup in the index, feed it into the model, and it would give a surprisingly good result. And so when I saw that, I thought that this is definitely doable. And it kind of shocked me that no one else was doing this. And so this was now the fall of 2020. And yeah, I was kind of shocked no one was doing this, but it costs a lot of money to keep it up. I was still in college. There are things going on. I got bogged down by classes. And so I ended up shelving this for almost a full year, actually. When I returned to it in fall of 2021, when BigScience released T0, when BigScience released the T0 models, that was a massive jump in the reasoning ability of the model. And it was better at reasoning, it was better at summarization, it was still a glorified summarizer basically. [00:11:26]Swyx: Was this a precursor to Bloom? Because Bloom's the one that I know. [00:11:29]Alessio: Yeah. [00:11:30]Michael: Actually coming out in 2022. But Bloom had other problems where for whatever reason, the Bloom models just were never really that good, which is so sad because I really wanted to use them. But I think they didn't turn on that much data. I think they used like the original, they were trying to replicate GPT-3. So they just use those numbers, which we now know are like far below Chinchilla Optimal and even Chinchilla Optimal, which we can like talk about later, like what we're currently doing with MIMO goes, yeah, it goes way beyond that. But they weren't trying enough data. I'm not sure how that data was clean, but it probably wasn't super clean. And then they didn't really do any fine tuning until much later. So T0 worked well because they took the T5 models, which were closer to Chinchilla Optimal because I think they were trained on also like 300 something billion tokens, similar to GPT-3, but the models were much smaller. I think T0 is the first model that did large scale instruction tuning from diverse data sources in the fall of 2021. This is before Instruct GPT. This is before Flan T5, which came out in 2022. This is the very, very first, at least well-known example of that. And so it came out and then I did, on top of T0, I also did the Reddit Eli5 fine tune. And that was the first model and system that actually worked well enough to where I didn't get discouraged like I did previously, because the failure cases of the BART based system was so egregious. Sometimes it would just miss a question so horribly that it was just extremely discouraging. But for the first time, it was working reasonably well. Also using a much bigger model. I think the BART model is like 800 million parameters, but T0, we were using 3B. So it was T0, 3B, bigger model. And that was the very first iteration of Hello. So I ended up doing a show HN on Hacker News in January 2022 of that system. Our fine tune T0 model connected to our Elasticsearch index of those 350 million top 10,000 common crawl websites. And to the best of my knowledge, I think that's the first example that I'm aware of a LLM search engine model that's effectively connected to like a large enough index that I consider like an internet scale. So I think we were the first to release like an internet scale LLM powered rag search system In January 2022, around the time me and my future co-founder, Justin, we were like, this seems like the future. [00:14:02]Alessio: This is really cool. [00:14:03]Michael: I couldn't really sleep even like I was going to bed and I was like, I was thinking about it. Like I would say up until like 2.30 AM, like reading papers on my phone in bed, go to sleep, wake up the next morning at like eight and just be super excited to keep working. And I was also doing my thesis at the same time, my senior honors thesis at UT Austin about something very similar. We were researching factuality in abstractive question answering systems. So a lot of overlap with this project and the conclusions of my research actually kind of helped guide the development path of Hello. In the research, we found that LLMs, they don't know what they don't know. So the conclusion was, is that you always have to do a search to ensure that the model actually knows what it's talking about. And my favorite example of this even today is kind of with chat GPT browsing, where you can ask chat GPT browsing, how do I run llama.cpp? And chat GPT browsing will think that llama.cpp is some file on your computer that you can just compile with GCC and you're all good. It won't even bother doing a lookup, even though I'm sure somewhere in their internal prompts they have something like, if you're not sure, do a lookup. [00:15:13]Alessio: That's not good enough. So models don't know what they don't know. [00:15:15]Michael: You always have to do a search. And so we approached LLM powered question answering from the search angle. We pivoted to make this for programmers in June of 2022, around the time that we were getting into YC. We realized that what we're really interested in is the case where the models actually have to think. Because up until then, the models were kind of more glorified summarization models. We really thought of them like the Google featured snippets, but on steroids. And so we saw a future where the simpler questions would get commoditized. And I still think that's going to happen with like Google SGE and like it's nowadays, it's really not that hard to answer the more basic kind of like summarization, like current events questions with lightweight models that'll only continue to get cheaper over time. And so we kind of started thinking about this trade off where LLM models are going to get both better and cheaper over time. And that's going to force people who run them to make a choice. Either you can run a model of the same intelligence that you could previously for cheaper, or you can run a better model for the same price. So someone like Google, once the price kind of falls low enough, they're going to deploy and they're already doing this with SGE, they're going to deploy a relatively basic glorified summarizer model that can answer very basic questions about like current events, who won the Super Bowl, like, you know, what's going on on Capitol Hill, like those types of things. The flip side of that is like more complex questions where like you have to reason and you have to solve problems and like debug code. And we realized like we're much more interested in kind of going along the bleeding edge of that frontier case. And so we've optimized everything that we do for that. And that's a big reason of why we've built Phind specifically for programmers, as opposed to saying like, you know, we're kind of a search engine for everyone because as these models get more capable, we're very interested in seeing kind of what the emergent properties are in terms of reasoning, in terms of being able to solve complex multi-step problems. And I think that some of those emerging capabilities like we're starting to see, but we don't even fully understand. So I think there's always an opportunity for us to become more general if we wanted, but we've been along this path of like, what is the best, most advanced reasoning engine that's connected to your code base, that's connected to the internet that we can just provide. [00:17:39]Alessio: What is Phind today, pragmatically, from a product perspective, how do people interact with it? Yeah. Or does it plug into your workflow? [00:17:46]Michael: Yeah. [00:17:47]Alessio: So Phind is really a system. [00:17:48]Michael: Phind is a system for programmers when they have a question or when they're frustrated or when something's not working. [00:17:54]Swyx: When they're frustrated. [00:17:55]Alessio: Yeah. [00:17:56]Michael: For them to get on block. I think like the single, the most abstract page for Phind is like, if you're experiencing really any kind of issue as a programmer, we'll solve that issue for you in 15 seconds as opposed to 15 minutes or longer. Phind has an interface on the web. It has an interface in VS code and more IDEs to come, but ultimately it's just a system where a developer can paste in a question or paste in code that's not working and Phind will do a search on the internet or they will find other code in your code base perhaps that's relevant. And then we'll find the context that it needs to answer your question and then feed it to a reasoning engine powerful enough to actually answer it. So that's really the philosophy behind Phind. It's a system for getting developers the answers that they're looking for. And so right now from a product perspective, this means that we're really all about getting the right context. So the VS code extension that we launched recently is a big part of this because you can just ask a question and it knows where to find the right code context in your code. It can do an internet search as well. So it's up to date and it's not just reliant on what the model knows and it's able to figure out what it needs by itself and answer your question based on that. If it needs some help, you can also get yourself kind of just, there's opportunities for you yourself to put in all that context in. But the issue is also like not everyone wants these VS code. Some people like are real Neovim sticklers or they're using like PyCharm or other IDEs, JetBrains. And so for those people, they're actually like okay with switching tabs, at least for now, if it means them getting their answer. Because really like there's been an explosion of all these like startups doing code, doing search, etc. But really who everyone's competing with is ChatGPT, which only has like that one web interface. Like ChatGPT is really the bar. And so that's what we're up against. [00:19:50]Alessio: And so your idea, you know, we have Amman from Cursor on the podcast and they've gone through the we need to own the IDE thing. Yours is more like in order to get the right answer, people are happy to like go somewhere else basically. They're happy to get out of their IDE. [00:20:05]Michael: That was a great podcast, by the way. But yeah, so part of it is that people sometimes perhaps aren't even in an IDE. So like the whole task of software engineering goes way beyond just running code, right? There's also like a design stage. There's a planning stage. A lot of this happens like on whiteboards. It happens in notebooks. And so the web part also exists for that where you're not even coding it and you're just trying to get like a more conceptual understanding of what you're trying to build first. The podcast with Amman was great, but somewhere where I disagree with him is that you need to own the IDE. I think like he made some good points about not having platform risk in the long term. But some of the features that were mentioned like suggesting diffs, for example, those are all doable with an extension. We haven't yet seen with VS Code in particular any functionality that we'd like to do yet in the IDE that we can't either do through directly supported VS Code functionality or something that we kind of hack into there, which we've also done a fair bit of. And so I think it remains to be seen where that goes. But I think what we're looking to be is like we're not trying to just be in an IDE or be an IDE. Like Phind is a system that goes beyond the IDE and like is really meant to cover the entire lifecycle of a developer's thought process in going about like, hey, like I have this idea and I want to get from that idea to a working product. And so then that's what the long term vision of Phind is really about is starting with that. In the future, I think programming is just going to be really just the problem solving. Like you come up with an idea, you come up with like the basic design for the algorithm in your head, and you just tell the AI, hey, just like just do it, just make it work. And that's what we're building towards. [00:21:51]Swyx: I think we might want to give people an impression about like type of traffic that you have, because when you present it with a text box, you could type in anything. And I don't know if you have some mental categorization of like what are like the top three use cases that people tend to coalesce around. [00:22:08]Alessio: Yeah, that's a great question. [00:22:09]Michael: The two main types of searches that we see are how-to questions, like how to do X using Y tool. And this historically has been our bread and butter, because with our embeddings, like we're really, really good at just going over a bunch of developer documentation and figuring out exactly the part that's relevant and just telling you, OK, like you can use this method. But as LLMs have gotten better, and as we've really transitioned to using GPT-4 a lot in our product, people organically just started pasting in code that's not working and just said, fix it for me. [00:22:42]Swyx: Fix this. [00:22:43]Alessio: Yeah. [00:22:44]Michael: And what really shocks us is that a lot of the people who do that, they're coming from chat GPT. So they tried it in chat GPT with chat GPT-4. It didn't work. Maybe it required like some multi-step reasoning. Maybe it required some internet context or something found in either a Stack Overflow post or some documentation to solve it. And so then they paste it into find and then find works. So those are really those two different cases. Like, how can I build this conceptually or like remind me of this one detail that I need to build this thing? Or just like, here's this code. Fix it. And so that's what a big part of our VS Code extension is, is like enabling a much smoother here just like fix it for me type of workflow. That's really its main benefits. Like it's in your code base. It's in the IDE. It knows how to find the relevant context to answer that question. But at the end of the day, like I said previously, that's still a relatively, not to say it's a small part, but it's a limited part of the entire mental life cycle of a programmer. [00:23:47]Swyx: Yep. So you launched in Feb and then you launched V2 in August. You had a couple other pretty impactful posts slash feature launches. The web search one was massive. So you were mostly a GPT-4 wrapper. We were for a long time. [00:24:03]Michael: For a long time until recently. Yeah. [00:24:05]Alessio: Until recently. [00:24:06]Swyx: So like people coming over from ChatGPT were saying, we're going to say model with your version of web search. Would that be the primary value proposition? [00:24:13]Michael: Basically yeah. And so what we've seen is that any model plus web search is just significantly better than [00:24:18]Alessio: that model itself. Do you think that's what you got right in April? [00:24:21]Swyx: Like so you got 1500 points on Hacking News in April, which is like, if you live on Hacking News a lot, that is unheard of for someone so early on in your journey. [00:24:31]Alessio: Yeah. [00:24:32]Michael: We're super, super grateful for that. Definitely was not expecting it. So what we've done with Hacker News is we've just kept launching. [00:24:38]Alessio: Yeah. [00:24:39]Michael: Like what they don't tell you is that you can just keep launching. That's what we've been doing. So we launched the very first version of Find in its current incarnation after like the previous demo connected to our own index. Like once we got into YC, we scrapped our own index because it was too cumbersome at the time. So we moved over to using Bing as kind of just the raw source data. We launched as Hello Cognition. Over time, every time we like added some intelligence to the product, a better model, we just keep launching. And every additional time we launched, we got way more traffic. So we actually silently rebranded to Find in late December of last year. But like we didn't have that much traffic. Nobody really knew who we were. [00:25:18]Swyx: How'd you pick the name out of it? [00:25:19]Michael: Paul Graham actually picked it for us. [00:25:21]Swyx: All right. [00:25:22]Alessio: Tell the story. Yeah. So, oh boy. [00:25:25]Michael: So this is the biggest side. Should we go for like the full Paul Graham story or just the name? [00:25:29]Swyx: Do you want to do it now? Or do you want to do it later? I'll give you a choice. [00:25:32]Alessio: Hmm. [00:25:33]Michael: I think, okay, let's just start with the name for now and then we can do the full Paul Graham story later. But basically, Paul Graham, when we were lucky enough to meet him, he saw our name and our domain was at the time, sayhello.so and he's just like, guys, like, come on, like, what is this? You know? And we were like, yeah, but like when we bought it, you know, we just kind of broke college students. Like we didn't have that much money. And like, we really liked hello as a name because it was the first like conversational search engine. And that's kind of, that's the angle that we were approaching it from. And so we had sayhello.so and he's like, there's so many problems with that. Like, like, like the say hello, like, what does that even mean? And like .so, like, it's gotta be like a .com. And so we did some time just like with Paul Graham in the room. We just like looked at different domain names, like different things that like popped into our head. And one of the things that popped into like Paul Graham said was fine with the Phind spelling in particular. [00:26:33]Swyx: Yeah. Which is not typical naming advice, right? Yes. Because it's not when people hear it, they don't spell it that way. [00:26:38]Michael: Exactly. It's hard to spell. And also it's like very 90s. And so at first, like, we didn't like, I was like, like, ah, like, I don't know. But over time it kept growing on us. And eventually we're like, okay, we like the name. It's owned by this elderly Canadian gentleman who we got to know, and he was willing to sell it to us. [00:26:57]Michael: And so we bought it and we changed the name. Yeah. [00:27:01]Swyx: Anyways, where were you? [00:27:02]Alessio: I had to ask. [00:27:03]Swyx: I mean, you know, everyone who looks at you is wondering. [00:27:06]Michael: And a lot of people actually pronounce it Phind, which, you know, by now it's part of the game. But eventually we want to buy Phind.com and then just have that redirect to Phind. So Phind is like definitely the right spelling. But like, we'll just, yeah, we'll have all the cases addressed. [00:27:23]Swyx: Cool. So Bing web search, and then August you launched V2. Is V2 the Phind as a system pitch? Or have you moved, evolved since then? [00:27:31]Michael: Yeah, so I don't, like the V2 moniker, like, I don't really think of it that way in my mind. There's like, there's the version we launched during, last summer during YC, which was the Bing version directed towards programmers. And that's kind of like, that's why I call it like the first incarnation of what we currently are. Because it was already directed towards programmers. We had like a code snippet search built in as well, because at the time, you know, the models we were using weren't good enough to generate code snippets. Even GPT, like the text DaVinci 2 was available at the time, wasn't that good at generating code and it would generate like very, very short, very incomplete code snippets. And so we launched that last summer, got some traction, but really like we were only doing like, I don't know, maybe like 10,000 searches a day. [00:28:15]Alessio: Some people knew about it. [00:28:16]Michael: Some people used it, which is impressive because looking back, the product like was not that good. And every time we've like made an improvement to the way that we retrieve context through better embeddings, more intelligent, like HTML parsers, and importantly, like better underlying models. Every major version after that was when we introduced a better underlying answering model. Like in February, we had to swallow a bit of our pride when we were like, okay, our own models aren't good enough. We have to go to open AI. And actually that did lead to kind of like our first decent bump of traffic in February. And people kept using it, like our attention was way better too. But we were still kind of running into problems of like more advanced reasoning. Some people tried it, but people were leaving because even like GPT 3.5, both turbo and non-turbo, like still not that great at doing like code related reasoning beyond the how do you do X, like documentation search type of use case. And so it was really only when GPT 4 came around in April that we were like, okay, like this is like our first real opportunity to really make this thing like the way that it should have been all along. And having GPT 4 as the brain is what led to that Hacker News post. And so what we did was we just let anyone use GPT 4 on Fyne for free without a login, [00:29:43]Alessio: which I actually don't regret. [00:29:45]Michael: So it was very expensive, obviously. But like at that stage, all we needed to do was show like, we just needed to like show people here's what Fyne can do. That was the main thing. And so that worked. That worked. [00:29:58]Alessio: Like we got a lot of users. [00:29:59]Michael: Do you know Fireship? [00:30:01]Swyx: Yeah. YouTube, Jeff Delaney. [00:30:03]Michael: Yeah. He made a short about Fyne. [00:30:06]Alessio: Oh. [00:30:07]Michael: And that's on top of the Hacker News post. And that's what like really, really made it blow up. It got millions of views in days. And he's just funny. Like what I love about Fireship is like he like you guys, yeah, like humor goes a long a long way towards like really grabbing people's attention. And so that blew up. [00:30:25]Swyx: Something I would be anxious about as a founder during that period, so obviously we all remember that pretty closely. So there were a couple of people who had access to the GPT-4 API doing this, which is unrestricted access to GPT-4. And I have to imagine OpenAI wasn't that happy about that because it was like kind of de facto access to GPT-4 before they released it. [00:30:46]Alessio: No, no. [00:30:47]Michael: GPT-4 was in chat GPT from day one. I think. OpenAI actually came to our support because what happened was we had people building unofficial APIs around to try to get free access to it. And I think OpenAI actually has the right perspective on this where they're like, OK, people can do whatever they want with the API if they're paying for it, like they can do whatever they want, but it's like not OK if, you know, paying customers are being exploite by these other actors. They actually got in touch with us and they helped us like set up better Cloudflare bot monitoring controls to effectively like crack down on those unofficial APIs, which we're very happy about. But yeah, so we launched GPT-4. A lot of people come to the product and yeah, for a long time, we're just we're figuring out like what do we make of this, right? How do we a make it better, but also deal with like our costs, which have just like massively, massively ballooned. Over time, it's become more clear with the release of Llama 2 and Llama 3 on the horizon that we will once again see a return to vertical applications running their own models. As was true last year and before, I think that GPT-4, my hypothesis is that the jump from 4 to 4.5 or 4 to 5 will be smaller than the jump from 3 to 4. And the reason why is because there were a lot of different things. Like there was two plus, effectively two, two and a half years of research that went into going from 3 to 4. Like more data, bigger model, all of the instruction tuning techniques, RLHF, all of that is known. And like Meta, for example, and now there's all these other startups like Mistral too, like there's a bunch of very well-funded open source players that are now working on just like taking the recipe that's now known and scaling it up. So I think that even if a delta exists, the delta between in 2024, the delta between proprietary and open source won't be large enough that a startup like us with a lot of data that we've collected can take the data that we have, fine tune an open source model, and like be able to have it be better than whatever the proprietary model is at the time. That's my hypothesis.Michael: But we'll once again see a return to these verticalized models. And that's something that we're super excited about because, yeah, that brings us to kind of the fine model because the plan from kind of the start was to be able to return to that if that makes sense. And I think now we're definitely at a point where it does make sense because we have requests from users who like, they want longer context in the model, basically, like they want to be able to ask questions about their entire code base without, you know, context and retrieval and taking a chance of that. Like, I think it's generally been shown that if you have the space to just put the raw files inside of a big context window, that is still better than chunking and retrieval. So there's various things that we could do with longer context, faster speed, lower cost. Super excited about that. And that's the direction that we're going with the fine model. And our big hypothesis there is precisely that we can take a really good open source model and then just train it on absolutely all of the high quality data that we can find. And there's a lot of various, you know, interesting ideas for this. We have our own techniques that we're kind of playing with internally. One of the very interesting ideas that I've seen, I think it's called Octopack from BigCode. I don't think that it made that big waves when it came out, I think in August. But the idea is that they have this data set that maps GitHub commits to a change. So basically there's all this really high quality, like human made, human written diff data out there on every time someone makes a commit in some repo. And you can use that to train models. Take the file state before and like given a commit message, what should that code look like in the future? [00:34:52]Swyx: Got it. [00:34:53]Alessio: Do you think your HumanEval is any good?Michael: So we ran this experiment. We trained the Phind model. And if you go to the BigCode leaderboard, as of today, October 5th, all of our models are at the top of the BigCode leaderboard by far. It's not close, particularly in languages other than Python. We have a 10 point gap between us and the next best model on JavaScript. I think C sharp, multilingual. And what we kind of learned from that whole experience releasing those models is that human eval doesn't really matter. Not just that, but GPT-4 itself has been trained on human eval. And we know this because GPT-4 is able to predict the exact docstring in many of the problems. I've seen it predict like the specific example values in the docstring, which is extremely improbable. So I think there's a lot of dataset contamination and it only captures a very limited subset of what programmers are actually doing. What we do internally for evaluations are we have GPT-4 score answers. GPT-4 is a really good evaluator. I mean, obviously it's by really good, I mean, it's the best that we have. I'm sure that, you know, a couple of months from now, next year, we'll be like, oh, you know, like GPT-4.5, GPT-5, it's so much better. Like GPT-4 is terrible, but like right now it's the best that we have short of humans. And what we found is that when doing like temperature zero evals, it's actually mostly deterministic GPT-4 across runs in assigning scores to two different answers. So we found it to be a very useful tool in comparing our model to say, GPT-4, but yeah, on our like internal real world, here's what people will be asking this model dataset. And the other thing that we're running is just like releasing the model to our users and just seeing what they think. Because that's like the only thing that really matters is like releasing it for the application that it's intended for, and then seeing how people react. And for the most part, the incredible thing is, is that people don't notice a difference between our model and GPT-4 for the vast majority of searches. There's some reasoning problems that GPT-4 can still do better. We're working on addressing that. But in terms of like the types of questions that people are asking on find, there's not that much difference. And in fact, I've been running my own kind of side by side comparisons, shout out to GodMode, by the way. [00:37:16]Michael: And I've like myself, I've kind of confirmed this to be the case. And even sometimes it gives a better answer, perhaps like more concise or just like better implementation than GPT-4, which that's what surprises me. And by now we kind of have like this reasoning is all you need kind of hypothesis where we've seen emerging capabilities in the find model, whereby training it on high quality code, it can actually like reason better. It went from not being able to solve world problems, where riddles were like with like temporal placement of objects and moving and stuff like that, that GPT-4 can do pretty well. We went from not being able to do those at all to being able to do them just by training on more code, which is wild. So we're already like starting to see like these emerging capabilities. [00:37:59]Swyx: So I just wanted to make sure that we have the, I guess, like the model card in our heads. So you started from Code Llama? [00:38:07]Alessio: Yes. [00:38:08]Swyx: 65, 34? 34. [00:38:10]Michael: So unfortunately, there's no Code Llama 70b. If there was, that would be super cool. But there's not. [00:38:15]Swyx: 34. And then, which in itself was Llama 2, which is on 2 trillion tokens and the added 500 billion code tokens. Yes. [00:38:22]Michael: And you just added a bunch more. [00:38:23]Alessio: Yeah. [00:38:24]Michael: And they also did a couple of things. So they did, I think they did 500 billion, like general pre-training and then they did an extra 20 billion long context pre-training. So they actually increased the like max position tokens to 16k up from 8k. And then they changed the theta parameter for the ROPE embeddings as well to give it theoretically better long context support up to 100k tokens. But yeah, but otherwise it's like basically Llama 2. [00:38:50]Swyx: And so you just took that and just added data. [00:38:52]Michael: Exactly. [00:38:53]Swyx: You didn't do any other fundamental. [00:38:54]Michael: Yeah. So we didn't actually, we haven't yet done anything with the model architecture and we just trained it on like many, many more billions of tokens on our own infrastructure. And something else that we're taking a look at now is using reinforcement learning for correctness. One of the interesting pitfalls that we've noticed with the Phind model is that in cases where it gets stuff wrong, it sometimes is capable of getting the right answer. It's just, there's a big variance problem. It's wildly inconsistent. There are cases when it is able to get the right chain of thought and able to arrive [00:39:25]Alessio: at the right answer, but not always. [00:39:27]Michael: And so like one of our hypotheses is something that we're going to try is that like we can actually do reinforcement learning on, for a given problem, generate a bunch of completions and then like use the correct answer as like a loss basically to try to get it to be more correct. And I think there's a high chance I think of this working because it's very similar to the like RLHF method where you basically show pairs of completions for a given question except the criteria is like which one is like less harmful. But here we have a different criteria. But if the model is already capable of getting the right answer, which it is, we're just, we just need to cajole it into being more consistent. [00:40:06]Alessio: There were a couple of things that I noticed in the product that were not strange but unique. So first of all, the model can talk multiple times in a row, like most other applications is like human model, human model. And then you had outside of the thumbs up, thumbs down, you have things like have DLLM prioritize this message and its answers or then continue from this message to like go back. How does that change the flow of the user and like in terms of like prompting it, yeah, what are like some tricks or learnings you've had? [00:40:37]Michael: So yeah, that's specifically in our pair programmer mode, which is a more conversational mode that also like asks you clarifying questions back if it doesn't fully understand what you're doing and it kind of it holds your hand a bit more. And so from user feedback, we had requests to make more of an auto GPT where you can kind of give it this problem that might take multiple searches or multiple different steps like multiple reasoning steps to solve. And so that's the impetus behind building that product. Being able to do multiple steps and also be able to handle really long conversations. Like people are really trying to use the pair programmer to go from like sometimes really from like basic idea to like complete working code. And so we noticed was is that we were having like these very, very long threads, sometimes with like 60 messages, like 100 messages. And like those become really, really challenging to manage the appropriate context window of what should go inside of the context and how to preserve the context so that the model can continue or the product can continue giving good responses, even if you're like 60 messages deep in a conversation. So that's where the prioritized user messages like comes from. It's like people have asked us to just like let them pin messages that they want to be left in the conversation. And yeah, and then that seems to have like really gone a long way towards solving that problem, yeah. [00:41:54]Alessio: And then you have a run on Replit thing. Are you planning to build your own repl? Like learning some people trying to run the wrong code, unsafe code? [00:42:03]Michael: Yes. Yes. So I think like in the long term vision of like being a place where people can go from like idea to like fully working code, having a code sandbox, like a natively integrated code sandbox makes a lot of sense. And replit is great and people use that feature. But yeah, I think there's more we can do in terms of like having something a bit closer to code interpreter where it's able to run the code and then like recursively iterate on it. Exactly. [00:42:31]Swyx: So you're working on APIs to enable you to do that? Yep. So Amjad has specifically told me in person that he wants to enable that for people at the same time. He's also working on his own models, and Ghostwriter and you know, all the other stuff. So it's going to get interesting. Like he wants to power you, but also compete with you. Yeah. [00:42:47]Michael: And like, and we love replit. I think that a lot of the companies in our space, like we're all going to converge to solving a very similar problem, but from a different angle. So like replit approaches this problem from the IDE side. Like they started as like this IDE that you can run in the browser. And they started from that side, making coding just like more accessible. And we're approaching it from the side of like an LLM that's just like connected to everything that it needs to be connected to, which includes your code context. So that's why we're kind of making inroads into IDEs, but we're kind of, we're approaching this problem from different sides. And I think it'll be interesting to see where things end up. But I think that in the long, long term, we have an opportunity to also just have like this general technical reasoning engine product that's potentially also not just for, not just for programmers. It's also powered in this web interface, like where there's potential, I think other things that we will build that eventually might go beyond like our current scope. [00:43:49]Swyx: Exciting. We'll look forward to that. We're going to zoom out a little bit into sort of AI ecosystem stories, but first we got to get the Paul Graham, Ron Conway story. [00:43:59]Alessio: Yeah. [00:44:00]Michael: So flashback to last summer, we're in the YC batch. We're doing the summer batch, summer 22. So the summer batch runs from June to September, approximately. And so this was late July, early August, right around the time that many like YC startups start like going out, like during up, here's how we're going to pitch investors and everything. And at the same time, me and my co-founder, Justin, we were planning on moving to New York. So for a long time, actually, we were thinking about building this company in New York, mainly for personal reasons, actually, because like during the pandemic, pre-ChatGPT, pre last year, pre the AI boom, SF unfortunately really kind of, you know, like lost its luster. Yeah. Like no one was here. It was far from clear, like if there would be an AI boom, if like SF would be like... [00:44:49]Alessio: Back. [00:44:50]Michael: Yeah, exactly. Back. As everyone is saying these days, it was far from clear. And so, and all of our friends, we were graduating college because like we happened to just graduate college and immediately start YC, like we didn't even have, I think we had a week in between. [00:45:06]Swyx: You didn't bother looking for jobs. You were just like, this is what we want to do. [00:45:08]Michael: Well, actually both me and my co-founder, we had jobs that we secured in 2021 from previous internships, but we both, funny enough, when I spoke to my boss's boss at the company at where I reneged my offer, I told him we got into YC, they actually said, yeah, you should do YC. [00:45:27]Swyx: Wow. [00:45:28]Alessio: That's very selfless. [00:45:29]Swyx: That was really great that they did that. But in San Francisco, they would have offered to invest as well. [00:45:33]Michael: Yes, they would have. But yeah, but we were both planning to be in New York and all of our friends were there from college at this point, like we have this whole plan where like on August 1st, we're going to move to New York and we had like this Airbnb for the month of New York. We're going to stay there and we're going to work and like all of that. The day before we go to New York, I called Justin and I just, I tell him like, why are we doing this? Because in our batch, by the time August 1st rolled around, all of our mentors at YC were saying like, hey, like you should really consider staying in SF. [00:46:03]Swyx: It's the hybrid batch, right? [00:46:04]Michael: Yeah, it was the hybrid batch, but like there were already signs that like something was kind of like afoot in SF, even if like we didn't fully want to admit it yet. And so we were like, I don't know, I don't know. Something kind of clicked when the rubber met the road and it was time to go to New York. We're like, why are we doing this? And like, we didn't have any good reasons for staying in New York at that point beyond like our friends are there. So we still go to New York because like we have the Airbnb, like we don't have any other kind of place to go for the next few weeks. We're in New York and New York is just unfortunately too much fun. Like all of my other friends from college who are just, you know, basically starting their jobs, starting their lives as adults. They just stepped into these jobs, they're making all this money and they're like partying and like all these things are happening. And like, yeah, it's just a very distracting place to be. And so we were just like sitting in this like small, you know, like cramped apartment, terrible posture, trying to get as much work done as we can, too many distractions. And then we get this email from YC saying that Paul Graham is in town in SF and he is doing office hours with a certain number of startups in the current batch. And whoever signs up first gets it. And I happen to be super lucky. I was about to go for a run, but I just, I saw the email notification come across the street. I immediately clicked on the link and like immediately, like half the spots were gone, but somehow the very last spot was still available. And so I picked the very, very last time slot at 7 p.m. semi-strategically, you know, so we would have like time to go over. And also because I didn't really know how we're going to get to SF yet. And so we made a plan that we're going to fly from New York to SF and back to New York in one day and do like the full round trip. And we're going to meet with PG at the YC Mountain View office. And so we go there, we do that, we meet PG, we tell him about the startup. And one thing I love about PG is that he gets like, he gets so excited. Like when he gets excited about something, like you can see his eyes like really light up. And he'll just start asking you questions. In fact, it's a little challenging sometimes to like finish kind of like the rest of like the description of your pitch because like, he'll just like asking all these questions about how it works. And I'm like, you know, what's going on? [00:48:19]Swyx: What was the most challenging question that he asked you? [00:48:21]Michael: I think that like really how it worked. Because like as soon as like we told him like, hey, like we think that the future of search is answers, not links. Like we could really see like the gears turning in his head. I think we were like the first demo of that. [00:48:35]Swyx: And you're like 10 minutes with him, right? [00:48:37]Michael: We had like 45, yeah, we had a decent chunk of time. And so we tell him how it works. Like he's very excited about it. And I just like, I just blurted out, I just like asked him to invest and he hasn't even seen the product yet. We just asked him to invest and he says, yeah. And like, we're super excited about that. [00:48:55]Swyx: You haven't started your batch. [00:48:56]Michael: No, no, no. This is about halfway through the batch or two, two, no, two thirds of the batch. [00:49:02]Swyx: And you're like not technically fundraising yet. We're about to start fundraising. Yeah. [00:49:06]Michael: So we have like this demo and like we showed him and like there was still a lot of issues with the product, but I think like it must have like still kind of like blown his mind in some way. So like we're having fun. He's having fun. We have this dinner planned with this other friend that we had in SF because we were only there for that one day. So we thought, okay, you know, after an hour we'll be done, you know, we'll grab dinner with our friend and we'll fly back to New York. But PG was like, like, I'm having so much fun. Do you want to have dinner? Yeah. Come to my house. Or he's like, I gotta go have dinner with my wife, Jessica, who's also awesome, by the way. [00:49:40]Swyx: She's like the heart of YC. Yeah. [00:49:42]Michael: Jessica does not get enough credit as an aside for her role. [00:49:46]Swyx: He tries. [00:49:47]Michael: He understands like the technical side and she understands people and together they're just like a phenomenal team. But he's like, yeah, I got to go see Jessica, but you guys are welcome to come with. Do you want to come with? And we're like, we have this friend who's like right now outside of like literally outside the door who like we also promised to get dinner with. It's like, we'd love to, but like, I don't know if we can. He's like, oh, he's welcome to come too. So all of us just like hop in his car and we go to his house and we just like have this like we have dinner and we have this just chat about the future of search. Like I remember him telling Jessica distinctly, like our kids as kids are not going to know what like a search result is. Like they're just going to like have answers. That was really like a mind blowing, like inflection point moment for sure. [00:50:34]Swyx: Wow, that email changed your life. [00:50:35]Michael: Absolutely. [00:50:36]Swyx: And you also just spoiled the booking system for PG because now everyone's just going to go after the last slot. Oh man. [00:50:42]Michael: Yeah. But like, I don't know if he even does that anymore. [00:50:46]Swyx: He does. He does. Yeah. I've met other founders that he did it this year. [00:50:49]Michael: This year. Gotcha. But when we told him about how we did it, he was like, I am like frankly shocked that YC just did like a random like scheduling system. [00:50:55]Alessio: They didn't like do anything else. But, um. [00:50:58]Swyx: Okay. And then he introduces Duron Conway. Yes. Who is one of the most legendary angels in Silicon Valley. [00:51:04]Michael: Yes.So after PG invested, the rest of our round came together pretty quickly. [00:51:10]Swyx: I'm, by the way, I'm surprised. Like it's, it might feel like playing favorites right within the current batch to be like, yo, PG invested in this one. Right. [00:51:17]Alessio: Too bad for the others. [00:51:18]Swyx: Too bad for the others, I guess. [00:51:19]Michael: I think this is a bigger point about YC and like these accelerators in general is like YC gets like a lot of criticism from founders who feel like they didn't get value out of it. But like, in my view, YC is what you make of it. And YC tells you this. They're like, you really got to grab this opportunity, like buy the balls and make the most of it. And if you do, then it could be the best thing in the world. And if you don't, and if you're just kind of like a passive, even like an average founder in YC, you're still going to fail. And they tell you that. They're like, if you're average in your batch, you're going to fail. Like you have to just be exceptional in every way. With that in mind, perhaps that's even part of the reason why we asked PG to invest. And so yeah, after PG invested, the rest of our round came together pretty quickly, which I'm very fortunate for. And yeah, he introduced us to Ron. And after he did, I get a call from Ron. And then Ron says like, hey, like PG tells me what you're working on. I'd love to come meet you guys. And I'm like, wait, no way. And then we're just holed up in this like little house in San Mateo, which is a little small, but you know, it had a nice patio. In fact, we had like a monitor set up outside on the deck out there. And so Ron Conway comes over, we go over to the patio where like our workstation is. And Ron Conway, he's known for having like this notebook that he goes around with where he like sits down with the notebook and like takes very, very detailed notes. So he never like forgets anything. So he sits down with his notebook and he asks us like, hey guys, like, what do you need? And we're like, oh, we need GPUs. Back then, the GPU shortage wasn't even nearly as bad as it is now. But like even then, it was still challenging to get like the quota that we needed. And he's like, okay, no problem. And then like he leaves a couple hours later, we get an email and we're CC'd on an email that Ron wrote to Jensen, the CEO of Nvidia, saying like, hey, these guys need GPUs. [00:53:02]Swyx: You didn't say how much? It was just like, just give them GPUs. [00:53:04]Alessio: Basically, yeah. [00:53:05]Michael: Ron is known for writing these like one-liner emails that are like very short, but very to the point. And I think that's why like everyone responds to Ron. Everyone loves Ron. And so Jensen responds. He responds quickly, like tagging this VP of AI at Nvidia. And we start working with Nvidia, which is great. And something that I love about Nvidia, by the way, is that after that intro, we got matched with like a dedicated team. And at Nvidia, they know that they're going to win regardless. So they don't care where you get the GPUs from. They're like, they're truly neutral, unlike various sales reps that you might encounter at various like clouds and, you know, hardware companies, et cetera. They actually just want to help you because they know they don't care. Like regardless, they know that if you're getting Nvidia GPUs, they're still winning. So I guess that's a tip is that like if you're looking for GPUs like Nvidia, they'll help you do it. [00:53:54]Swyx: So just to tie up this thing, because so first of all, that's a fantastic story. And I just wanted to let you tell that because it's special. That is a strategic shift, right? That you already decided to make by the time you met Ron, which is we are going to have our own hardware. We're going to rack him in a data center somewhere. [00:54:11]Michael: Well, not even that we need our own hardware because actually we don't. Right. But we just we just need GPUs, period. And like every cloud loves like they have their own sales tactics and like they want to make you commit to long terms and like very non-flexible terms. And like there's a web of different things that you kind of have to navigate. Nvidia will kind of be to the point like, OK, you can do this on this cloud, this on this cloud. Like this is your budget. Maybe you want to consider buying as well. Like they'll help you walk through what the options are. And the reason why they're helpful is because like they look at the full picture. So they'll help you with the hardware. And in terms of software, they actually implemented a custom feature for us in Faster Transformer, which is one of their libraries.Swyx: For you? [00:54:53]Michael: For us. Yeah. Which is wild. I don't think they would have done it otherwise. They implemented streaming generation for T5 based models, which we were running at the time up until we switched to GPT in February, March of this year. So they implemented that just for us, actually, in Faster Transformer. And so like they'll help you like look at the complete picture and then just help you get done what you need to get done. I know one of your interests is also local models, open source models and hardware kind of goes hand in hand.Alessio: Any fun projects, explorations in the space that you want to share with local llamas and stuff? [00:55:27]Michael: Yeah, it's something that we're very interested in because something that kind of we're hearing a lot about is like people want something like find, especially comp

Hype. The definition can vary wildly depending on who you're talking to. Today's guest Michael F. Schein, founder and president of MicroFame Media and author of “The Hype Handbook,” defines it as “any set of activities that get a large number of people highly emotional, so that they'll take the action that you want them to take.” From Virgil to the Punks and the Beatles–and of course the South Bronx where hip-hop and the term as we know it today was born–artists throughout history have used human behavior, particularly group behavior, to create propaganda and what we now know as personal branding.The most successful people, he explains, use hype not as a separate marketing strategy but as part of the art itself, creating whole worlds (like Warhol's factory) and personas consistent across all media (Steve Jobs' wearing the same black turtleneck and jeans, for example). This creates more organic interest and brand integrity. Most people are pretty similar and have been and will always be driven by the same desires. If you can learn these, Michael says, you will know how to get and keep their attention no matter which trends or technology platforms move in and out of vogue. The Hype Handbook is the culmination of ten years of research and life experience. Starting out in a punk band–where he and his bandmates proved to be natural marketers–before moving into marketing and writing, Michael realized there were about 12 key principles that make for good promotion. Join the conversation to learn why he believes happiness and a fulfilling life are found through side doors and why having a Plan B is, well, over-hyped. Quotes“I guess that's what hype means. It's not just having a marketing budget. It's conducting experiments to figure out how you can embody your values in a very public way, how you can tap into human psychology to get people excited about that. And then how you can embody that in everything you do.” (9:53 | Michael)“If you're seeing all of these articles telling you that AI, or the metaverse, or social media, or whatever the latest thing is, if you don't have a strategy on that, you're going to fall behind…they use these tools as accelerators, but it's not the route.” (17:33 | Michael)“One of the strategies in my book is packaging is the essence of propaganda.” (18:57 | Michael)“I don't think things are linear at all. I think history is cyclical. I think trends are cyclical.” (24:44 | Michael)“Human beings are more alike than they are different…these are things that you can reverse engineer and figure out. We all like to think we're individuals, but we're about half a percent individual.” (25:34 | Michael) “You're never going to know exactly what the recipe is. You're always going to have to conduct experiments. But if you have a firm understanding of the way that humans behave in groups and the way human minds work, you can conduct experiments quickly and strategically, in a way that you won't waste time on stuff that will never work.” (37:43 | Michael) LinksConnect with Welcome to ElomaInstagram: @welcometoelomaWebsite: WelcometoEloma.comConnect with KileySocial: @kileypeters + Linkedin.com/in/kileypetersWebsites: RAYNEIX.com, KileyPeters.comWeekly Email Newsletter:...

Geraldo REACTS to Fan Comments, DMs, and Emails!!!  www.goodluckgabe.life help@goodluckgabe.life   I am sorry! I am not a nut-case or mindless cad. I was just momentarily overwhelmed by your incredible good-looks, charming personality and witty persona. You are a lot more than just a pretty face, sir! When you flashed me your very sexy butt, I lost all decorum! I wish I had taken a photo of your perfect butt, but the image is etched in my mind. Your body is as perfect as your face! Bur, I know I am relinquished to a fantasy, and in that fantasy you are flawless in my eyes. I wish for you happiness and satisfaction. I am not sure of your preference, man or woman, but I hope you have or find someone who appreciates all you have to offer. You are exquisite in my eyes. Michael   You are my most dedicated and devoted disciple of Faggotry among all my disciples. You have the way to get my Nasty Wicked Perverted Alpha Dom Dick hard and dripping in no time witch gives clearly and advantage in spreading the pleasures of MANSEX by initiating handsome boys to manly gayness and converting married men to give up on boring and unsatisfying sex with women and convincing them that straighthood is the work of the devil to deny them fulfilling sex they DESERVE witch will only happen if they join Gayness and discover sexual satisfaction they never truly experienced before. May God Blessed All Manly Gay Jocks And Studs With Perverted Faggotry Forever And Ever!   I thought the extinction of the human species would be caused by a meteor hitting earth. Our extinction will happen because of you, your videos cause sexual impotence. His monologues are despicable. You are a fanatic, who hates your fans for being gays.

Thank you for staying with us as we missed another week last week. Edward is traveling with his family this summer, making recording difficult. We still have a half dozen episodes recorded and we will trickle them out over the summer months, but there may be a few weeks this summer without an episode. But we have some fun ones coming! This one made me laugh while I was editing it… Enjoy!In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss Daredevil's recent loss to Stilt-Man. Does Daredevil even have any super powers? If not, is he just a crazy man who swings from building to building with a grapple hook? And what's up with Stilt-Man? Did he choose his own name? Why doesn't he have extendable arms as well? Is this all a joke? And if so, how did the “joke” defeat Daredevil? Behind the issue:This is the first appearance of Stilt-Man, who goes on to try out names like “Stilty” and “Daddy Long Legs”. By the end of the issue, Stilt-Man is defeated and shrunk into nothingness. That does not stop him, though, as he comes back to be active in the Marvel Universe through to the present day (he is killed by the Punisher at one point, but his clone continues to use his stilts for villainy).In this issue:A new villain appears on the scene - Stilt-Man - and he starts his career of villainy by robbing a helicopter mid-flight. Seems complicated for a heist, but there you have it. In any event, Daredevil tries to take Stilt-Man down after the heist, but does not succeed. Back in his civilian guise as Matt Murdock, Daredevil takes on a new client, Wilbur Day, who hires Matt to sue his boss Mr. Kaxton, who has stolen his patent. As the case goes on, Stilt Man continues his crime spree. It is eventually revealed that Wilbur is Stilt-Man. He goes on the run from Daredevil, and eventually, he is hoisted on his own petard when he accidentally turns his shrinking ray on himself, shrinking him to apparent nothingness.This episode takes place:After the short reign of Stilt-Man comes to an end.Assumed before the next episode:People did not really think much about Stilt-Man.Full transcript:Edward: Mike Daredevil is not dead, but he has been pretty badly injured, and I think this is what you get when you have someone who's just a vigilante with no real powers trying to take on super villains.Michael: Well, wait a minute. I don't know if he's spoken about this before, but is he a normal guy?Just in a funny costume, like he seems fine. He define seems similar.Edward: Well, define normal. You say normal to what does normal mean?Michael: Okay, so Spider-Man isn't normal, right? We know Spider-Man. Spiderman isn't normal. Climb balls and he's swinging from building to building. But what do we know about Daredevil? He fights on rooftops and kind of swings down from rooftops. Like, I could not,Edward: but he swings on a grappling hook. You could swing at a grappling hook.Michael: No, there's, there's a, there's a zero chance, even in the best shape of my life, would I use a grappling hook to swing from one building to another without a net?Edward: I'm not saying is something, I'm not saying it's a smart thing to do, but I'm saying you could do it. I think if push came to shove, I have faith in you, Mike. I think you could swing from a building to building. It's in a rope. You could, all you have to is hold onto the rope. Just hold onto the rope.Michael: Ed, have you ever gone to a cottage on a lake in the summer we're gonna a swimming hole and there's a rope? Yeah. And the rope it's tied to a branch overhanging in the water Sure. And the rope. And you grab the rope and you swing out. Yeah.That is still scary. Cause if you don't let go in time and you go back to shore and you let go, then you land on the rocks. Yeah. That's bad. As opposed to the water. So would I swing like that without the water? No,Edward: well, I'm not saying you would do it because you, cuz you have more sense than Daredevil does. Are you saying Daredevil's superpower is he's unafraidMichael: The man with no fear. I mean, he is. Pretty fearless, I suppose. But my point isn't that, that's what you would say is his superpower, is my take is that he, I think he has, he must have a superpower. He can't just be a regular guy in great shape who's like, no, cuz like, it seems like swinging from building to building isn't necessary to do what he's doing either.It's like, you know what I mean? It seems like, it seems like almost like an add-on, like gratus gratuitous s**t. Gratuitous. Yeah. Like, and it would be exhausting, think about Ed. I don't know the last time you tried to do a pull up or a chin up, but imagine that andEdward: I can do pullups and chin-ups.I can do that.Michael: Okay. They're hard cause you're lifting your full body weight up. Now imagine you're doing that a few times through the evening and then you fight. Super villain. I mean, it does seem that's,Edward: I'm saying he's making poor choices with his life.Michael: Okay. Okay. So either he's making poor choices and he has no fear, or he's got some kind of superpower. So anyways, you and I were talking about that, but you mentioned Daredevil andEdward: yeah. And then you went off on how superpowered he is and I don't know if he actually is, I think Thank you. He, he clearly has exceptional abilities, right? Whether those are super abilities or not, it feels like he's in the Captain America style. Then Captain America some sort of super soldier. Yeah. But, but he's not, he can't breathe fire. He can't fly, he can't stick to walls. And I think Daredevil's in the same class, he's Clearly very athletic. But man, is he athletic take on super villains. What's just happened is he was very soundly defeated by, basically a guy in battle armor with really long legs.Michael: You know what? They're calling him, ed,Edward: they're calling him the stilt man. The villain, the stil man.Stil man.Michael: It's just, it, it's just, it's just ridiculous. I don't mind, I love, and you and I, obviously we have, we have a show about this. I do love how humanity is evolving in these new things we're seeing, but, Doesn't it seem like we're scraping the bottle of the barrel for the influences, where you're naming yourself and your whole persona, your super villain persona is based on, in this case, stilts.Edward: Well, did he name himself stilt matter or did the media name him Stilt Man? Well, I don't know, but they, but that's what he has. He wasn't having a press, he wasn't having a press release. He was just going out and robbing things and the poor guy got labeled as a stilt guy. Well, okay, but we got it. It should have . Called him, I don't know. Armor Battle man.Michael: It'd be better, but he's clearly got some kind of body armor. That's fine. Yeah. And bullets, power bullets off him. Right.Edward: And he can got that he stole from a helicopter. He used his well, his stilts to extend upward and then, stole from a helicopter that the helicopter thought they were safe.They're like, nobody can get us up here because there's no such thing as a flying villain. Oh, wait a minute. Or a stilt villain that just came up and sell.Michael: It's just, that's the defining. Feature of it is that whatever you wanna, like stilts is what they are. He has these extendable stilts and it just seems so stupid. It's just, I don't know, for all that technology, first of all, it's impressive. It's an impressive engineering feat to say if a helicopter is 500, a thousand feet in the air, To basically be able to extend your stilts up a thousand feet and not fall over.Edward: And then, and then, yeah, balance.Look at the balance on that guy.Michael: It's incredible. It's incredible technology. It's just thatEdward: I would argue he probably more impressive than a grappling hook.Michael: I would give you that, but The Thing is, but why would you do that? Why would you spend all that engineering, why would you direct your energy towards that engineering feed where he could have created something else?Except, unless he's just going for the sort of the whimsy of, I'm a guy that has stills. I'm like really tall.Edward: He built like these hydraulic extension things that are, I think are really if you built this hydraulic extension technology and you decided you wanted to go and use it for crime? What type of battle suit would you maybe I'd have extending arms too. I'd have like extension arms to go.Michael: The arms are way more practical. Yeah, but the think with the power you'd have. Bam.Edward: But they can do the same thing with his legs. He just kick people with like his big extension. Legs and kicks are more dangerous than arms.Michael: He's not, he's extending the stilt so that he can perfectly time getting in front of a helicopter and hoping the helicopter doesn't just turn around or just,Edward: if it does, he can, can chase after climb. They go fast. He can run, his steps per minute could be very low and he could still achieve very high velocity.Michael: We haven't seen any film of this, and I'd like to because that would be interesting. But anyways, the point I'm making though is I hate it. I hate the idea that we've gotten to the point in this marvelous age of heroes and villains and super scientists and aliens and gods, and it's like, you know what? We've kind of run our course. Let's have. A stilt based hero or villain? Villain. Villain. Like a psychic ladder. Ladder boy. Like any, you know, like tall guy.Edward: I think you can be cynical on his name, but clearly Daredevil has a better name than stilt man, but like this guy defeated Daredevil. And so whatever superpowers you think Daredevil has, apparently they were not powerful enough to defeat this poor villain that you're mocking.Michael: Oh no, I agree with you on that. Even though I think the daredevil must have some powers, powers are not, he's probably exhausted by the time he flipped around and grappled through the city to then fight the stilt guy.Edward: But he has to grapple up the stilt man. You can't even get to him with those grappling hook that grapple is doing a lot of lifting,Michael: silly. Whether you're defeated daredevil or not. I just find it so silly. And I, maybe I'm okay. Don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like you and I put a lot of energy into our show talking about these amazing people, good and bad, and then along comes still, it kind of just undercuts everything we're talking about where that's what it is.It just seems so silly.Edward: He's not undercutting anything. He's way up high in the sky. Everything is below him.Michael: I just like to take his legs out cuz it just bothers me.Edward: Take his legs out. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss the Avengers' public search for a fifth member: the Hulk. What are they thinking? Is strength the only requirement for membership? How bad is “rampaging” before you decide not to let someone on the team? Should someone take Captain America's license away?Behind the issue:Stan Lee is leaning into the idea that the team is under-powered after losing the original Avengers. The team feels the same way until they discover that when they work together as a team they can defeat powerful villains — maybe they don't need the Hulk after all?In this issue:The new Avengers meet for the first time. Rick Jones - teenage sidekick with no discernible powers or abilities - is jealous that the three new members - Scarlet Witch, who can warp reality; Quicksilver, who can run at the speed of thought; and Hawkeye, who has an uncanny martial abilities - are members and he is not. Anyways, Captain AAmerica announces to the fledgling team that their first mission is to find the Hulk to see if he will join their team. They then go to train, and a giant robot sent by the Mole Man breaks in and attacks them while informing them that they can find the Hulk in the desert. It's a trap, obviously, but the Avengers still set out for the desert and battle the Mole Man's Minotaur underground. Meanwhile, the Hulk chases down his foe, the Leader. The issue ends with the Avengers realizing that they are quite formidable on their own and do not really need the Hulk.Assumed before the next episode:People are still wondering what the deal is with this odd team of Avengers.This episode takes place:While the public considers whether the Hulk would be a good addition to the Avengers or not.Full transcript:Edward: All right, Mike, we know who the fifth member of the Avengers is or not. Is, is going to be, is going to beMichael: wild man. It's actually crazy. It's actually crazy. How do we get here?Edward: You thought given the fact that The Thing is leaving the fantastic f. For, they'd bring him in. Mm-hmm. As the big strong man. And they said, no, no, no. That's not crazy enough, Mike. That's not crazy enough. We're no, we're gonna go back to our roots and find the most powerful man in the world and bring him onto the Avengers cuz the Avengers are not the second best mark. They're not the second strongest person in the world. They're going for the strongest.Michael: Yeah so they're out there trying to find the Hulk because the Hulk is the strongest one there is. And it's like, hold on a second. He's caused a lot of damage. He's fought you guys.Edward: Of course, of course. He's caused damage. He's the strongest man in the world. How can the strongest person in the world not cause damage?Michael: He, he, He's a, well, I dunno if he's a man, he's a monster.Edward: They're, they're calling, they're, they're calling him a man. They're calling him, man.Michael: Okay. And I shouldn't be, so I don't want to be negative towards him. I don't wanna use pejorative terms.Edward: You're like monstrous. Is that a word?Michael: But he has acted monstrously, you know what I mean? Like, so he, he has,Edward: he's a person who acts like a monster. He's not a monster himself.Michael: Well, yeah, sure. That's right. And he's out there causing terror and mayhem and. Battling the Avengers.Edward: Fair enough. And so then, not just Avengers, he's fought the Avengers, he's fought the fantastic F, he's f the Avengers more. I think he's fought the Avengers more than he's been on the Avengers in terms of like Right. Which side he's been on. He's been anti Avenger more times than he's been Avenger.Michael: So, I should say, gee whiz, you know, I'd like to get married. I'm gonna marry my, the worst girlfriend I've ever had because, you know, Because she's been my girlfriend in the past and she was a great girlfriend for like a week and then a terrible girlfriend for like a month. And so,Edward: yeah. But Mike is this girlfriend the strongest girlfriend in the world.Michael: Well, okay, how about this? The most attractive, my most attractive girlfriend in the world. That's all I'm going for if I'm super superficial. There you go. And so that's kind of what it is, right? They're picking one serious trait. So yes, the Hulk is the strongest one there is, but he is the best teammate? Like, yes, this woman. Is the most attractive woman I've ever dated. But is she the best girlfriend? And it's like, I don't know. I don't care. She's like the hottest, so I'm gonna go marry her.Edward: You presumably, you only have one girlfriend at a time. The Avengers have five at a time, so they need different pieces. They have Captain America who's probably the best teammate in the world and they have I dunno, the quick silver Quicksilver was the fastest in the world and the. The witch who's the most magical in the world. And so now they don't need another great teammate. They need someone who's just they have no one who's strong. They need someone who's strong.Michael: And I think my analogy holds, it's like you're my friend and you're one of the smarter friends I have and I've got other friends.Edward: Somebody say the smartest in the world would you say that,Michael: you know, I'm not gonna say, but you might. And, uh, and then you get, and then, and it's like, gee, on outta my friend network, I don't have the hottest one. So I'm the hottest one. The hottest, craziest person, coming into my life. Which is, what the adventures are doing. So, No, I think it's weird. I think it's wrong. And also,Edward: are you saying the Avengers don't have the best judgment in the world?Michael: Yeah, I am. And then on top of that, on top of that, it's hard not to notice that the Avengers are recruiting people who, a year ago we considered to be villains.Right?Edward: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. A month ago, no, two months ago.Michael: You're right. Sorry. Time flies. So we have quick Silver Scarlet Witch who used to be in the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. That's terrorists. They're, they're terrorists. They're terrorists. Terrorists. Terrorists.The Commonwealth War Hawkeye Hawkeye, who was like, oh, no. Criminal?Edward: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He was also a super spot. He was working with the Russians and the Soviets.Michael: That's, that's right. And then they're like, you know what? Okay, we've covered, we've covered those areas. Let's get a guy who rampages.Edward: We have, we have no vandals. We need a vandal. Vandal, the terrorist, we have the communist. We need just someone who's pure, pure anarchy.Michael: Like is Captain America a right? Is he making the decisions right now? It's like he's a little older. I guess he's been around since World War ii. Do we just step in and say like, you know, you step in and take away your parents' driver's license. You gotta say cap. You know, if you're the one driving this bus, we gotta, we got some questions, we got some concerns here.Edward: What's what's amazing to me, it's not just that they want the Hulk, it's that they haven't spoken to the Hulk. It's not like they just gotta put it out there. It feels like, it feels like, yeah, exactly.If you want the Hulk, let's get the Hulk in the room and ask and be like, Hey, listen, it's like selecting a vice president. You don't go and say, Hey, I'm looking for you like, uh, uh, Mr. Uh, vice president. Um, do you, uh, are you, uh, are you out there? I'm just gonna put an ad in the newspaper and maybe you'll. Come to me. No, you take them aside one by one and be like, Hey, if we were to ask you, would you join? And oh, by the way, if we were to ask you to join, would you stop rampaging? Would you stop destroying cities? Because that's kind of a requirement for the organization. But right now they've reduced all their ability to negotiate.The whole comes along. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna join. You want me to join? I'll join. But here's my requirements. I get to destroy five buildings every week. Take it or leave it, then what do you do? And then what do you do?Michael: And I might get into fist way with you, you know, so just, just like it or lump it, but it's happening and it's like, well, okay, maybe we shouldn't like it.Edward: Maybe putting ads and newspapers across the country was not the right choice. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss life after being an Avenger. What are the responsibilities? What are the privileges? Do they get top secret briefings? Are they like ex-Presidents? Or like ex-FBI? Who pays for the damage they cause when Giant-Man decides to grow to 35-feet in the middle of the city and starts knocking down buildings? These are unprecedented times, but someone has to figure this out quickly!Behind the comic:This is the first adventure of Giant-Man and the Wasp post-Avengers. The story continues into the next issue, but at that point they “retire” and the title converts to dual stories of Namor and the Hulk. It turns out Giant-Man just wasn't that popular. It didn't help that Tales to Astonish had consistently been one of the weaker titles for the previous few years. Something needed to change. Also in this issue, the Human Top, who was originally introduced as a “normal human” who just happened to be able to spin quickly, has now developed the ability to fly…In this issue:Giant-Man and the Wasp are practicing just outside the city. A plane intentionally flies into Giant-Man, and the pilot, the Human Top, considers killing him but does not have time before Giant-Man wakes up. The Top splits, and Giant-Man returns home. Giant-Man practices his growing ability in downtown Manhattan. The Human Top then returns and battles Giant-Man and the Wasp, and Giant-Man is enraged when the Top leaves with a captured Wasp.In the Hulk story, the Hulk saves Major Talbot from dying during the Leader's attack. Then, when the Hulk has turned back into Bruce Banner, General Ross places him under arrest for treason. The leader sends his humanoid minions to the base where Banner is being held, and while they attack Banner, he turns back into the Hulk and battles them but is knocked out as they steal an invention of Banner's for the Leader's use.Assumed before the next episode:People are fed up with Giant-Man leaning on their buildings, carelessly causing damage.This episode takes place:After Giant-Man has leaned on one too many buildings.Full transcript:Edward: Mike, what do you do when you retire from the Avengers? What's next? What's next on your plate?Michael: I don't know. It's hard to go higher in the superhero community, but it's also harder to get a better job in even the military or that kind of like super diplomacy communityEdward: and super diplomats.Michael: Well, that's what they are, right? Like they're like, I don't know, like Warrior Kings in a way. Right?Edward: Thank you for your service, giant man. I'd not like you to be the diplomat in charge of Poland. Over there with the wasp. You can help us deal with geopolitical situations in the Eastern Republics.Michael: But that's what they've been doing though. They've been acting asEdward: the last time giant man went into the Eastern Europe, he was crashing through the Berlin wall. It's not diplomatic, it's not known for diplomacy.Michael: No, but his actions, whether they're clumsy or not, were actually affecting international relations. So that's what I mean, like the general sense of whatever they are.Edward: Yeah. So causing diplomatic relations is not the same as being a diplomat, just cuz they both have the word diplo in them.Michael: No, no, no. I'm not saying that they're, I'm not saying that that's the job. It's just that what have the Avengers been? They've saved the world. They've battled villains. They have taken upon their self to go to other countries, to act in America's interests.And then at times we've found that they've acted secretively to the same extent, further in the interest and theory of America. So I don't know what you want to call them, but they're not regular. And so you're, they're not regular. And, and your question at the start was like, well, what do you like, what do you do when you retire?Well, it's not unprecedented, but it's unusual. And so it's a good question.Edward: And so what's unusual, you're saying retiring as a superhero is unusual or retiring as an avenger is unusual. What's unusual?Michael: Retired from the Avengers is unusual because, well, yes, it's Avenger.Edward: Avengers have only been around for a couple years. No one has retired until now. But now we've had, now we have three retirements, sorry, four retirements, 1, 2, 3, 4, all at the same time.Michael: Yeah. And my point is that it's unusual. We have an experience where someone with that much power who's had such a fascinating role and influence on world affairs, is now no longer in that position? I think there's a qualitative difference between being on the Avengers and being the go-to team for. Pretty much any big problem to be on their own. Are they still on the payroll or at least getting the status and the influence they had on Avengers?Edward: I wouldn't think so. If you're not, you can't be like, not on the Avengers, but still getting all the Avenger privileges.Michael: That's right. So that's what I mean. Somebody that tied in to International affairs in such a highly visible way and such an influential position, I would think that they don't just retire and, then our intelligence organizations are like, that's cool.I guess you just. Have all this knowledge and this know-how, and you just go off and do what you want. So I'd imagine that there's something that must tie them closer. Oh, I see what you're saying. It's like maintain them and to be still being sort of a post adventure, but still in the family. You know what I mean?Edward: Got it. You're a post, you're not in ave anymore, but now you're a post a event. It's like a presidents. When presidents retire, they still have the secret service. Follow them around everywhere. They still get paid. Right., if you're an ex-president, you still get a salary.Michael: I think so. Or some kind of pension, I don't think they'd wait till like they're, you know, like most of 'em seem to be quite old when they're president, when they retire. I don't think they, they have to wait long before they get the stipend. Right. Which makes a lot of sense as well, cuz you don't want them to Go out and say, I've been the president of the United States for eight years and now I'm interviewing for this job at General Electric.Or I might go, I think I'd like to go work in Hungary. You know what I mean? I don't think that they're gonna be like, what's next for me? As if it's just like anybody in the world. They're just not. And so I think get to pay them enough to keep them on the bench in a way, and still get to know-how and the benefit of the expertise and still have them available to contact them.I would think.Edward: Okay, there's an ex-presidents club. You think there's gonna be an ex Avengers club where they all get together and come back together and talk about, I dunno, I guess the new Avengers can ask the old Avengers for advice the presidents do that sometimes. Yeah.Michael: I think so. I mean, I'd like to think so because the alternative would be that the Avengers, so somebody who's been so tied into our security and the intelligence organizations, but also our military and our political affairs is just suddenly like, huh. Well, I gotta make a living not an Avenger anymore.Edward: Maybe I'll go rob Banks,Michael: right? Or maybe I will go maybe work for, another country. I mean, like they could, and it's unusual, like the adventures started as this voluntary group, but very quickly became integral to our security intelligence organizations, et cetera.but I bet that there are those types of organizations and associations already. I bet they just attach that type of structure over to the Avengers to make sense.Edward: Paul, you're saying there's other structures like the Avengers out there?Michael: You used presidents ex-president, as an example.I think there has to be some kind of process they can follow to say, time.Edward: But the difference is the presidents, like that's part of the constitution, like that's built into the fabric of our country and there are rules and regulations that go back. Hundreds of years. The Avengers are a couple years old.We don't even know exactly how the Avengers are affiliated with their government, how they're affiliated with Stark Corp. They're all part of this military industrial complex, and I don't think we understand what's going on. It's definitely not the way we understand what happens with the president.Michael: Well Ed, I'm not saying I'm cool with it. I find it to be the most weird you know, and people that listen to our show know this. I've always found it to be the weirdest thing that the military, the government, our intelligence organizations are like, I don't know, better get the adventures involved. I've always found it to be strange, but whether it's strange or not, they're tied in and they have this connection and they have this. Powered authority in our society. So just to have them float off and possibly just what, decide that they want to, take what they know and not do anything with it, or,Edward: yes. You're basically say we should bribe them so that they don't do that. We should have tax dollars go towards paying giant man and Thor and Iron Man in the wasp and tell them, Hey, here's a hundred grand. Uh, please don't work for the Russians.Michael: I think, I wouldn't use the word bribe, but I think it's incentivized, I suppose, but's be honest, let's be honest. You, I've had shows where, where your solution is like, I guess we gotta kill them. Or lobotomized them. I'm like, no, I'm just following your well trod path on this one. Like probably need to pay them is the better alternative than like, Like, where I know you want to go on these things where it's like, too dangerous of your life. See you later.Edward: You know, I'm gonna tell your wife about the things you've been doing, unless you give me an incentive to not do thatMichael: well yeah. It's, like, protection, money protection.Edward: I'm not gonna, uh, bust into your shop, but, you know, I need some incentive to make sure that it stands up. Okay.Michael: But Ed, you wouldn't characterize it as bribing that you say, Let's say Kennedy, who's a young president, let's say. He hadn't been assassinated and he continued on, and he retired after, let's say he served two terms. He would've been in his early fifties, you wouldn't have considered bribery to pay him a pretty healthy pension.Edward: No, you're, right. It's not bribery to have to pay someone to do their job.Michael: It's a role.Edward: It's an incentive pay. It's an incentive. So that you go and do The Thing that we we're paying you to do. I think bribe, connotates something illegal, right? Or something underhanded. What's what's going on here though, is, it kind of is underhanded, because it's not public, it's not well-known. Is Stark Corp paying their post avenger salary? Is it the government? That's to me the, big question. And the other thing is that well at least giant man is still active. We haven't heard much from about Thor Iron Man, but, it's Giant man is out there. Experimenting and doing more stuff. Like the latest things on Giant Man is he can now grow to 35 feet tall. He's getting bigger and bigger, so his power levels are increasing. And he's doing it right in the city. He's damaging buildings, he's doing practices. He weighs tons with tons and tons of weight, and he's walking through the city causing damage.And so in the past when that happened, the Avengers had some sort of fun that paid for that stuff. Is there a post Avengers payment fund now too?Michael: That's part of the reason why I was thinking about this, there has to be some kind of structure in there. Not just about the idea that they have information that would be damaging, to our interests if they went somewhere else, for instance.But also if giant man is practicing growing in the cities, and holding onto buildings so he doesn't fall down. He's causing damage. And in the past, it's still irresponsible them to do that. But at least there is some kind of recourse for the regular person or insurance companies. He get some kind of, kind of like, you know, fix, fix the masonry on this. You know, likeEdward: fix, it's like an irresponsibility reading. As an avenger you can have a 10 on irresponsibility, but now that you're post Avengers, let's bring that irresponsibility level down to a six or a seven.Michael: And he hasn't, you know what I mean? Practicing growing around buildings when you wait tons and could knock one over if you just tripped, is not responsible.Edward: And also grabbing, grabbing onto the edges of buildings and like having bricks fall off. It just seems a little dangerous.Michael: It's super dangerous. So that's why I think that there must be something in the way, some process or some similar continuation of coverage.Really. Like I know when lawyers retire, we have mandatory insurance and then when you retire you can have runoff insurance, which would cover you. So you might get a claim, there's only so long you can Sue your former lawyer there's limitation periods and then you'd wanna make sure you cover. So if you did get sued,Edward: the insurance covers you, not for the time that you were a lawyer, but the insurance is covering you for right now. Like, for example, if you stopped your insurance today, And you got sued for something you did yesterday, the insurance wouldn't cover you.Michael: No, so insurance covers terms, so as long as you have occurrence base and claims based policies, but the most common policy would be like if you get into a car accident, you have insurance policy with company A, and then you get sued two years later. B, you no longer are insured you by that company. You're run to another insurance company. It's the company that was on risk that would cover you. And so I'm saying for, Lawyers when they retire, they wanna make sure they've got insurance and coverage, to continue a bit longer. I see I'm diving into stuff. I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm far from retirement, but I just know that there is coverage up.Edward: There's something, there, something, there's something's something there that's a giant man probably has some sort of insurance policy that's covering him post Avengers, some sort of runoff policy that lasts for some period of time.Michael: Or you just have the Avengers have so much money at their disposal. They're either self-insured in a sense, or they just have money to pay. But whatever it is, I think that you don't have these retired Avengers running around causing damage and then not, and then what you're gonna Sue giant man, you're gonna find out where that guy, who he really is. Or do you still follow the process that is in place that we we're aware of where they could make a claim. Because of the damage that the Avengers caused, which I think is a way that's kept people kind of okay with them in general.Edward: So if he has to have this coverage that keeps lasting, like we're kind of paying for giant man for the guess for the rest of his life or for some time period.Does he have responsibility then too? This is like reserves in the military. I think we can call back up giant man if the Hulk was rampaging through the city and we're like, you know what? The Avengers are a little weak right now. We need some, uh, we need some more bench strength.Can he be called in?Michael: I don't know. I mean I would think so. I would think that's part of the deal. Like we said at the beginning, it's unusual and unprecedented about what they are in our society, but they are unusual. They are unprecedented is so, you and I are just trying to speculate about what should make sense.And I think what makes sense is that if they're out there, Having information or abilities that could harm us if they were no longer on our side. I think that there's a built-in incentive to have them close to home, really. But also if they're out there doing activities, and they're more or less government agents, which they have been.I think there should be some kind of recourse for regular people. Otherwise people would not be as keen about Giant man doing his calisthenics in the middle of the city.Edward: Like you're sounding more and more like the Avengers are like the mafia. Once you're in, you can't get out. You think you're out and we pull you back in.Michael: I'm not saying that they're not like that. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Apologizes for the delay on this episode. Edward has been traveling more than usual for business making it difficult to record. But we are back, and we should have a few more episodes recorded in time to be back on schedule next week. Stay tuned true believers!In this episode:Mike and Ed skip over the tornado that Dr. Doom used to terrorize the city, the capture of the Baxter Building, and the use of Reed Richards' technology against himself, and jump right to the shocking news that the Thing, Ben Grimm, is leaving the Fantastic Four! Why is he leaving? Is it too hard to keep egos like this together for more than a few years? What is he going to do next? Is it a coincidence that the Avengers recently lost their four strongest members? And does this mean the Fantastic Four need to go into recruiting mode now too? The “Fantastic Three” does not have the same ring to it!Behind the IssuesA lot happens in these issues: The after effects of the nuclear bomb in issue #38 cause the FF to lose their powers. Then Dr Doom attacks the team while they are helpless and they need to defeat their arch-nemesis without the benefit of powers. But all of that is secret. The FF manage to hide the fact their powers are missing while they get help from Daredevil. By the end of issue #40 they have their powers back, and Ben Grim is back to being the Thing. But in the course of the battle Ben felt un-appreciated and uses it as an excuse to leave the organization. This continuing storyline with every issue ending on a cliffhanger is Stan's new style and we are seeing it in almost every title now, but none as connected as the Fantastic Four.In these issues:Fantastic Four #39:The Fantastic Four are rescued at sea, and they have lost their powers. Reed uses his technology to replace their powers, and they keep this information from the world. Meanwhile, Dr. Doom, who had been hypnotized by Reed previously, has this spell lifted by a local hypnotist. Doom, now in a rage at being tricked, heads back to New York City and battles the Fantastic Four, who have Daredevil on their side. They have a wild battle, with Daredevil doing a lot of the heavy lifting, leading into the next issue.Fantastic Four #40:Daredevil continues to pull the Fantastic Four's bacon out of the fire. Meanwhile, the Four head to their headquarters, where Doom is holed up, with the local police sectioning off the city around the Four's headquarters to allow these superpowered enemies do battle. At just the right time, the Four's powers return, due to the ingenuity of Reed Richards, and they are able to best Dr. Doom and reclaim their headquarters. The Thing pushes them over the finish line, and they let Doom escape. And at the very end of the issue, the Thing decides that he has had it, and quits the team.Assumed before the next episode:People are wondering if the team should be called the Fantastic Five.This episode takes place:After the Fantastic Four/Five have defeated Dr. Doom and reclaimed the Baxter Building. Full TranscriptEdward: Mike, there is a lot to talk about.Michael: No kidding.Edward: We could talk about the fact there's a tornado rampaging through the city destroying buildings. We can talk about Dr. Doom using Reed Richards technology against him and against all of us. We could talk about Doom. Taking over the Baxter, Building again, and threatening the Fantastic Four. These are all things we can talk about, but we're not gonna talk about any of those things.Michael: No man. We're talking about teams. We're talking about teams. Eddie, this is exciting news.Edward: Yeah. Not just teams. We're talking about The Thing. After all this stuff happening. The Thing announcement that he is leaving the Fantastic four.The Fantastic four have always had a challenge with their brand name in that they needed four people. Now they have to deal with that problem in a real way because the Fantastic Three doesn't have the same ring to it.Michael: No. So let's look at who's leaving, right? It's the strong man of the group and he's leaving.And first of all, we don't know why. And I'd be curious about that because branding alone, you're right, you need to have four people. But we should speculate cuz it's interesting. But why would he leave? It sounds like a sweet gig. I mean, the fantastic war, they went through their hard times in the beginning of their partnership, but they've been making some good money they own the Baxter Building. And through Reed's inventions, they must make still SCDs of money. And they go on these amazing adventuresEdward: And it's the status perspective. They're loved, right? They're invited to the White House and they're doing pretty well for themselves.Michael: They're the only team where we know who they are in real life too.They don't have secreted s I mean, it's an incredible thing that they have,Edward: but they also, they're close-knit group. There's only four of them. And we all know, there's rock bands that break up all the time, and you're like, why did they break up? They should never have broken up. They were so good together.But the truth is you have four people. And they're human as much as they have superpowers, they're human. And so it's not surprising that sooner or later somebody's not gonna get along. The Avengers recently broke up. We don't know why they broke up either, but I imagine personality conflicts came into it.Michael: I think you're right. And the Fantastic Forum or a special case, because they work together and they live together. They function really as a family. And you're right, just like much like rock bands break up, familiarity does breed contempt.Edward: And hey, if you're talking about family, Ben Grimm was already the odd man out. Right? Sue Storm and Johney Storm are brother and sister, and Sue is getting married to Reed. They're engaged like that. Mm-hmm. That's a legit family and well, who's Ben? Ben's a good friend.Michael: Yeah. Yeah. He's good old. Ben is hanging out with the fam and it's, yeah,Edward: college roommate or something. They're college roommates from, but like college roommates aren't the same as husband and wife or brother and sister?Michael: No, and I'm sure your wife appreciates you hearing that, talking to me, roommates, butEdward: as my college roommate, I will tell you that you do not, you're not the same as my wife.Michael: That's fair. That's fair. But in a way it seems unfair to speculate on what happened because I think we know what must have happened there. There's some kind of grievance that must have blown up and so he's leaving so, Now that he's leaving the fantastic bar. The question is where does a one ton Orange Rock monster super powerful. Super strong? Where does he go? And you mentioned it earlier where I think he's gonna go, he must be going to the Avengers. Clearly this makes sense. Total sense, right? Yeah.Edward: He's probably not gonna go and start a law firm.Not Ben Grimm thing. So security. What was Ben Grimm before he was an airplane pilot, right? I also don't think, American Airlines is looking for a new pilot Ben is not the guy. Meanwhile the Avengers have lost Thor. They lost giant man and they lost Iron Man.And they didn't, they replaced them with, we talked about this. They replaced them with a witch and a guy who runs fast and a guy who shoot bows and arrows, they have no strong man on the team. Right. It seems like a very natural fit. If they are calling up Ben Grimm and trying to recruit him right now, then they don't deserve to be in hr.Michael: You know what's funny? I would imagine that there would be some kind of between these groups have worked together before, right? And so I would imagine there would be some communication. So it almost looks like there's almost a trade going on. Not a formal trade, but, in a lot of ways, Ben has, The Thing has been a bit of an odd person to have on the Fantastic Four team, whereas in he seems like a natural fit with the Avengers. It's sort of like how so the fantastic, how so? What do you mean? Well, the Fantastic Four are kinda like these, what I would consider to be science adventures, right? They're not there brought in to, to feed the heavy physical hitters, they're actually there to solve, more challenging problems like, dealing with outer space and other dimensions, like science type problems require science type heroes. And that's why they're led by the scientists being Reed Richards. So they're more than math club.Edward: And if again, you're, you're like, if you look at the battles the Fantastic Four has have fought. They've been won not from Bran, but because Reed Richards came up with some master plan.Michael: That's right. And I think that it doesn't hurt to have a very strong person on the team, but you're right, it's more brain over bra. So they're like the math club, if we're using high school analogies. Whereas the adventures have always been kind of the football team, you know what I mean? Like, like they're more the jocks.Like they're not the nerds like the Fantastic four doing with science problems and coming up with science solutions. The adventures are more like the bruisers who are going in just going in and fighting the Hulk, you know? And, andEdward: I'm picturing Captain America, giving, Reed Richards a wedgie.Is that what you're saying?Michael: Yeah, but that's, that's what it seems to be. And soEdward: you can stretch, sir, but can your underwear stretch?Michael: So you think about it , it kind of makes sense that the Avengers need someone like Ben, like The Thing, number one and number two, it does make sense that someone like, say, Iron Man, who's a science hero when you think about it, invented his own suit or has this mechanical suit that allows him to fly through.Edward: Oh, we don't know that. Maybe there's some dude in there, someone else made the suit. He's just along for the ride.Michael: He might be, but if he isn't Ed, he might be another science genius that belongs on the science team. Just like giant man. I mean, maybe it's a fantastic five. We're looking at, you know, or Fantastic Six, where you get like Iron Man, giant man and the was, we were all kind of science-y kind of heroes I would say because they have science-y type costumes.They probably could add to the bench strength of the Fantastic Four. Just like Ben, The, Thing. Could add to the physical strength of the Avengers, which they've historically needed.Edward: Yeah, Reed, Richards scientist mind, he could probably improve on the shrinking and the growing technology and, I dunno, make them shrink even more. Make them grow even more. But we'll have giant man the size of a building next.Michael: Yeah. So while I'm disappointed that, something clearly happened within the Fantastic Four, I'm kind of excited about the idea of having a new shake up amongst the teams because, and especially if the shake up is along the lines that I think they will do, which makes a lot of sense to me. You know, when I think of the high school dynamics that I've articulated, Kind of exciting, isn't it?Edward: So who are the X-men then? Are the X-men the goths? Are they the weirdos, the outsiders? The guys smoking?Michael: That's right. They're the ones cut in class and out the smoking doors at recess.You know, they're not bad kids. They just misunderstood. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss the shocking loss of scientific skill among the country's top scientists. It clearly seems purposeful, but what is the purpose? Aliens trying to keep humanity from developing new technologies? A domestic test to take away targeted abilities from exceptional people? Will they be able to take away superpowers next? And if so, is it ethical? If we can't keep someone in prison, is the choice really between lobotomizing their abilities or capital punishment? What is the ethical choice? Ed and Mike disagree!Behind the issue:The after-effects of this issue result in Giant-Man unable to shrink smaller than a normal human for the remainder of his time in this title (which is ending soon and will be replaced with Namor. More on that when it happens!). Otherwise, nothing special here. In this issue:A guy is driving around town while being directed by a man in a hidden laboratory in a funny costume named the Supreme One. When the driver sees Giant-Man, he decides to zap him in a green ray, which causes Giant-Man to grow weak. This is because the ray is designed to steal power. The Supreme One becomes obsessed with stealing Giant-Man's power, as he was unable to do that the first time he had someone try. To that end, he has his minion drive around town bathing scientific geniuses in the green ray, stealing their next-level scientific abilities, i.e. a top physicists forgets everything he knows about physics, etc. Giant-Man and the Wasp investigate, eventually tracking down the Supreme One, who escapes in a spaceship (turns out he is an alien).In the second story in this issue, the Hulk fights the army in a foreign nation, and when he turns to Bruce Banner, he is captured by some locals. Major Talbot is sent in to rescue Bruce Banner, and the episode ends on a cliffhanger - will Talbot and Banner fall to their deaths as they escape? Tune in next week!Assumed before the next episode:People are wondering what is happening to all the smart people. They are getting … less smart? How does that make any sense?This episode takes place:After people learn of the de-smartening that is happening.Complete transcript:Edward: All right, Mike, we're gonna change it up this week. We're gonna change it up a little bit because I have a story I think we should be talking about that's not, well, maybe it is superhuman. The scientists around the world are losing their scientific abilitiesMichael: right?Edward: So these are top physicists who are losing the ability to do physics or top geneticists who can't do genetics anymore. Top chemists who can't do chemistry anymore. And their brains can still do everything else. They can still have conversations, they can still love their families, but they're losing their scientific abilities. And so I think this is a super thing. We don't know who's doing it or why, but it sounds superhuman.Michael: Okay, before we get to this superhuman, if they're superhuman. Not saying that what you're saying is thatEdward: No, I'm not saying human. It's a superhuman, some sort of superhuman thing. I don't think we know any scientific way to remove parts of knowledge from someone's brain like that feels like a superhuman thing.Michael: Right. So you're saying that there must be a purpose to it. This phenomena that's only targeting extremely intelligent and highly accomplished and specialized people like physicists. They're being targeted and their abilities are removed, which. Yeah, it doesn't sound normal.Edward: Um, well, it's never happened before, so therefore it is by definition, abnormal. Although it's abnormal, it's happening more and more now. So is it becoming normal? It's becoming normal. It was not normal, but now it is.Michael: It's normalized almost, and so normalized.So I guess the first question is, what's the purpose of it? So your first thing is that you're thinking that there's a super villain possibly, or an alien or something that is doing this for a reason. Right. In that it's making humanity weaker. It's making our ability to defend ourselves worse. Worse. Is that where you're kind of going on it,Edward: it sounds that way. Like, oh, you're right. Maybe it's a villain who's doing blackmail, but it seems purposeful. If it was a virus, That was just spreading around, right? And causing brain damage to people. First of all, that'd be terrifying, but secondly, it feels like that viruses don't work that way. The viruses wouldn't go and attack just the most intelligent top scientists in the world and just attack their scientific knowledge and leave everything else untouched. So you're right, it seems purposeful.Michael: And that's alarming because we know that in the last few years, in addition to what appears to be naturally occurring superhuman abilities and extraterrestrial or, paranormal, superhuman abilities, we have seen that there's been greater advances in technology, in science that have allowed humanity to reach new levels. So Iron, Man and other, you know, giant. Giant man have been able To create things that are just impossible they're fantastical. It's basically modern magic, the science that they've been able to wield so is this a preemptive attack, a taking away the ability of other people to create such modern miracles?Edward: Oh, you're right. Yeah, it could be stopping the creation of new superheroes. We know, if you look at the superheroes that are out there, a handful of them, like the X-Men seem to be that this people who are born with this weird gene that's being activated by something.But for most superheroes out there, or, super villain for that matter. It seems to be either, Some sort of science that science is doing it. That's right. Captain America is experimented on and turned into Captain America, like the Reed. Richards took fantastic four up into space and space stuff turned them into the Fantastic four. Sandman was like atomic research, whatever turned him into Sandman. So it feels, or to your point, Iron, Man and Giant Man was actually, or the porcupine, they're actually building technological wonders. And so if our top minds, the people who can like do the engineering, the people who can understand the atomic science are losing their ability to do that.Hey, maybe it is aliens. Maybe aliens are trying to put humans in their place and say, Hey, stay on the planet Earth. Stop leaving and stop developing powers.Michael: It's wild. It sounds paranoid, but at the same time it's starting to make a lot of sense. This will fundamentally weaken humanity. By taking our top scientists off the board. That's right. Quite frightening. That's right. But then the other part of it is leaving side the motivation which is alarming and I'm hopeful that say the Avengers or the various federal agencies are on top of this, you gotta wonder how they're doing it. Like how is it that they're doing almost micro lobotomies. Is it a technological basis for it or is it magical? How exactly are they doing it at all.Edward: You're right. Clearly, it's not something that anyone has done before, but someone has found a way to go and do, lobotomy is a good word. It's a very, it's like a targeted lobotomy. Because what's fascinating about this is it's not like these scientists are coming in with other brain damage. They're able to continue on their lives. Normally. They are still able to, whole jobs. Not even like they can't do normal stuff. They can do all the normal things. They just, it's like this piece of knowledge. They're cutting edge brain power and I don't even know if their intelligence was affected so much as their knowledge was affected. So if you're a scientist who's like really brilliant and spend 40 years of your life diving deep into physics, you're not gonna be able to spend another 40 years we just don't live long enough.Michael: It's quite a violation of their autonomy too. I don't want to discount that, but, however they're doing it, it's wild. And you gotta wonder if it's not some extraterrestrial kind of thing or some kind of super thing. What if it's actually a, just, it's something more domestic? We talked before about, What do you do with these super villains that you capture and have these amazing abilities? Like say, let's say Sue Storm turned into be a bad person and she has force fields and can turn Invisible. Like how do you deal with that and make, and IM prisoner if she was a villain, is this. Some technology that somehow got into the world where they've been experimenting on how to turn off abilities and it's got into the wrong hands and they're using it to turn off the abilities, for lack of a better term, of regular humans.Edward: If you're right, maybe it is just an experiment then, and they're testing to see if they can turn it on and off before they say, Hey, let's turn off the superpowers of. Sue Storm or Reed richards. Let's turn off the brain power of some physicists and you're right, if it doesn't work and they can't turn it back on again, that would be really bad. But not as bad as if we like turn off the superpowers of the Avengers because hey, that's irreplaceable.Michael: It does lead into to a consideration of like, how if this is like a deliberate thing that might be done by people on our side, say a government kind of project that got the wrong hands, that tells us I guess I've ever thought about the idea that turning off, say, superpowers is akin to a pure violation of a person's autonomy, right? It's more relatable in a way to basically make a very intelligent person, less intelligent in a particular area that is actually, it's so remarkably unethical, cuz it is effectively targeted Phlebotomy.Edward: Clearly whether it's just happening to Random intelligent people, it's unethical. But if we did this to get against the guy who was building the porcupine suit or the wizard who is like notoriously committing crimes and breaking outta prison and committing the frightful fore attacking the Fantastic four, if we just reduced his intelligence and stopped his ability to go and create these fantastic suits, I dunno, is that still unethical?Michael: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. It, definitely is it is a version of lobotomizing those intelligent people. We don't do that right now. There have been super intelligent people in history and if the choice is to build a better prison or to lobotomize somebody, you would choose you should choose to build a better prison.Edward: That's fair. And I guess I feel like we haven't really. On that route, far enough. We still are building these terrible prisons and allowing these criminals to escape again and again. But I guess let's go further. Remember there was the vanish. Do you remember the vanish, right?Yes, I did. So that's, yeah, so the vanger had the ability to teleport and, I'm not sure how he was dealt with, I assume, like we assumed at the time maybe that they just killed him. There was just a extra, judicial murder to take this guy out because otherwise what do you do?You can't put in prison someone who can teleport outta prison. He was teleport into the Oval Office. He was threatening the president. You, can't stop someone like that. And so if we had, if for the vanish or. Let's say what they had this ability to turn off his power. Or, and along the way it also turned off his ability to do complicated differential equations. It feels like that's a better alternative than allowing him to go free or a better alternative than murdering him.Michael: Yeah. But it's the same, you know, The Thing with ethics is that they're not relative. This goes to, the question I suppose, is the ability to have like a superhuman power, and you, if you remove that, is that the same as effectively doing a version of a targeted lobotomy? And I think the answer is yes. I mean, I think that the Vanger, even by basis of just looking at his name, He identifies, that's a core part of who he is.Edward: He enjoys vanishes, and if he stops vanishing, then who is he anymore?Michael: Well, exactly. And so to remove that from him,Edward: it's, I'm the talker. If you take away my, if you make me mute, who am I?I can't, I can't, I can't do The Thing that I do.Michael: But it, but it's the same thing, like, so it is the same thing removing an ability for somebody to solve differential equations as a top physicist is the same as taking away a person's ability to, in this case, do a unique thing, which is the ability to,Edward: so I'll grant you that, but the difference is, is that the guy doing the differential equations isn't trying to murder the president. It feels like that. Like that's the difference. You're right. I don't think we should go and find everybody who can teleport and then go and take away their abilities. That seems like a draconian a totalitarian government that would do something like that. But if there's somebody teleporting around murdering people, I think by all means we should stop that person. And if that means taking away their ability to teleport, I think so. Be it.Michael: I guess the question is, what is a worse and more abominable crime towards an individual or harm that you could cause them? Is it one to give them effectively a brain injury so that they are not the same person as they were before, because that's what you're doing if you turn up abilities. I think it's similar to making somebody less, less intelligent to like solve differential equations either argues the same as turning off their ability to do what they're born to do, which is teleport. So it's a better termEdward: to murder. I was born to murder precedents.Michael: Wait, so you either give them effectively a brain injury, so you actually violate what they are as a human at who they're as a person. Their core being or you killed them, is what you're saying. Or you build a better prison. Yeah. Yeah. And you're saying you handled a better prison. It's only two choices.Edward: That's right. That's right. So I think we are all agreed that if you can build a better prison, you build a better prison that feels like the right thing to do, I think. Mm-hmm. When you can't build a better prison, when you have someone like the vanish or the absorbing man who can, if you put him in a prison, whatever you. Put him in, he can absorb the strength of that thing and bust his way out. And so what do we do? The absorbing man, they set him into space to drift aimlessly for eternity. Like that seems worse. It feels like if you had a choice between, that's the worst one. Drifting through space for all eternity, or losing the ability to absorb the strength of materials around you. I think most of us would give up the ability to absorb, even if our name was the absorbing man. It feels like you can get a new name.Michael: Hey. They sit him down and say, listen, here are the two alternatives. We've been up all night thinking about the options here, and one is that we turn you into a race that'll float through the empty space forever, or we give you, effectively we change your brain chemistry. And I think that, historically, it's a pretty slippery slope when you start messing around with people's brains and changing who they are. I don't know what the right answer is, ed, but I have to say youEdward: really don't know the right answer. You really think that maybe the right answers to have 'em drift through space for all eternity.Michael: I don't know. You're forcing me to say that. I think it'd be better. I think it would probably be better to actually like, uh, And I'm against a death penalty. But that seems to be preferable to actually really lobotomize againstEdward: sin. Bomb the ball. No, no, no, no, no, no. Listen, imagine. So let's put you in that, those shoes. Okay? Now, Mike, you now have the ability to fly. You are flying, man, and you could fly around and so on. But you know what? You used that, you used that flying power for evil, and you started killing presidents. And so now they're like, Mikey, you need to go to jail. Unfortunately. This metaphor is falling apart because we could put a flying guy in jail. You,Michael: you put a, the ceiling solved the problem, ed.Edward: Okay, Mike, you have the ability, we're gonna use this vanish again. You can teleport Mike, you can now teleport everywhere and you're murdering people left, right, and center. Because you know what, maybe the teleporting also meant your brain go, went crazy, and the government comes to you and says, Hey Mike, we have two choices.We can take away your ability to teleport and you'll go back to being old Mike. Or we can murder you. Are you really, are you like, have you given that choice? Like you think the right choice is to murder you?Michael: Uh, it's, it's just such a hard It, it is. It's not hard. Murder. Murder is a problem. The slippery slope stuff is terrible.Eddie, you're actually,Edward: yeah. But one of them, one of them has a slippery slope. The other one is a giant hole of death.Michael: You know what I think because,Edward: you can recover from a slippery slope, you can't recover from a murder.Michael: Eddie, I'm a lawyer. I'm not a judge. I'm not making that call right now. But you're, but clearly I know where it goes with you. You'd be like, take away my ability. Give lobotomize me so that I don't go out and vanish anymore and I'll live the rest of my life.Having you having fundamentally changed what, who I am as a person? Yes. Yes. How is that any different than Lobotomizing people that. The state didn't, consider to be, desirable?Edward: Well, we've already, I think the difference is, is we've agreed that you are only doing this as a last ditch effort. We're not saying, Hey, you're a murderer, a normal murderer who like walks around with knives and guns. We'll just take the knives and guns away from you. Even though you call yourself gunman and you define yourself by using guns, we're gonna take away the guns. And then, and you're like, oh, but I can't be gunman without guns.Well, too bad you're no longer gunman. You are now just man, and we're gonna put you in a jail. And that jail is not gonna give you access to guns and that's the preferred choice. But if you can't, but if you can't put them in the jail, you need another choice. And the second choice should not be killing them indiscriminately.Michael: So I guess the problem and hear me out on the slippery slope, but like if the technology is developed and you can use it on these, in these extreme situations, my fear is that you use them. Even if you could rationalize that, you would use them in more mundane situations where all prisoners, all people convicted of violent crimes are now gonna get, effectively get a lobotomy because it's safer.Because you can't keep them in prison forever. Or if you do, the prisons are unsafe, et cetera. There's gonna be a rationalization for actually using this technology to effectively lobotomize them too. So it won't be limited, I'm afraid to this very unique situation that. The teleporters of the world. I wish we know there's one. And it could extend and it could, it would extend what I consider to be an abomination throughout. Oh, again, you're worried Our society.Edward: Well, maybe we just put in rules in place that the person needs to choose to have this. We just get to a certain point where it's like, Hey, you can choose to be lobotomized or murdered, and if you prefer murder, we can do that for you.The state's really good at murdering people.Michael: I think it's what, I think one of those, that's what they consider to be actually not a real choice. Ed, I thinkEdward: know that's the point is, but like, we're stuck at this point where we have to choose the choice. We don't give them three choices if it's not like we can take away your powers, murder you or put you in a jail that you can escape from in two seconds. Which do you choose now? Well, clearly the guy just escapes from jail and so that's not an acceptable choice for our society. We need to stop the vanger and people like him from murdering people. And so far it seems like what we're doing is we're just murdering. We murdered the vanger and we sent the absorbing man into space. And this molecule, man, we don't know what happened to him. These people who are extremely powerful. They seem to just be disappearing and we're not talking about it. That is the slippery slope. And so this is a way to reduce the murdering this against villains.Michael: Well, if I had to guess. I suppose the murder's been working out. At least that's what's been happening and I think it's unfortunate. I think it's horrific. And so what I hope will happen is that maybe if the government is secretly funding this research into this technology, maybe they should direct their attention. Towards better prisons that would solve the problem and avoid these thorny issues. That, that you're pushing on me.Edward: Teleportation proof prisons. That's the next scientific achievement. Read Richards. Go do it.Michael: Send them to Asgard Ed. We know that they must have their, they're superpowered.God's like Thor. They must have the technology up there to deal with strange, unique powers. Let's, let's, let's start talking about that.Edward: Vanisher, get off Earth. Go murder Odin. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss when it is appropriate for a regular human to get involved in super-conflict. If you can't help, you don't need to show off - just run away and call 911! Also: Are all Asgardians super? If they are, why wouldn't all of them come to Earth where they could be super powerful? Or is that just beneath their dignity?Behind the issue:This is the point where Stan has decided to take Thor “off the table”. He is going to leave the Avengers, and more of his stories will involve stuff happening in Asgard and the politics of the gods, rather than fighting villains of the week on Earth.In this issue:Thor and Loki are engaged in battle in a faraway land, at the behest of Odin to sort out who lied to him. This all came about because of a trick that Loki played on Thor and Odin. Ultimately, Odin realizes that Loki lied to him, and that Loki had put Jane Foster in harms way as part of his scheme. Meanwhile on Earth, the Enchantress and the Executioner kidnap Jane in broad daylight, and a bunch of pedestrians intervene in an ill-fated attempt to rescue her. Back to the faraway land - Loki escapes, leaving Thor stranded.Assumed before the next episode:People watch footage of the pedestrians being unable to take down super-powered Asgardians and realize they probably shouldn't try that.This episode takes place:After Thor is stranded in another dimension.Full transcript:Edward: Mike, it is kidnapping week here on the show, ,Michael: and I didn't even mark it in my calendar, but you're right. Every year it creeps up on me every year. Kidnapping week, you know, I just think really it's kidnapping week. It's been that long. Oh gee.Edward: Yeah. Yeah. It's time for the friends and family of our heroes to be put at risk where the villains come in and, use them as leverage to. I dunno, I guess to get the heroes to fight. Why, they couldn't have just got them to fight before, it feels like most of these heroes won't turn down a chance to fight with these villains. Like I think the kidnapping part is a little unnecessary.Michael: It does seem unnecessary and maybe that's why we're taking a little jaunty view of it, where yes, they're being kidnapped, but it usually works out , no one's really injured. It makes it seem almost like a juvenile game between the super villains and the superheroes.Edward: And in this particular case, two of the top people at, Stark Corp, pepper Pots and Happy, I'm sorry, I don't know Happy's last name. Happy Hogan. Happy Hogan. Yeah. Happy Hogan. We're kidnapped. Everyone can, Breathe easy. They have all been rescued. Iron, Man has rescued them from the kidnapping. So they're back at home. Happy is now happy. And meanwhile, Sue Storm from the Fantastic Four, the actual superhero Sue Storm, has also been kidnapped by the Frightful four. And she's not yet been returned. So that the case is still out. Although with her powers, she's gonna be much easier to protect herself than Pepper and happier.Michael: I guess, we'll see how it all shakes out, but on a more serious note there is a concern about these connections with these superheroes that leave them exposed to risk. You gotta wonder about what they're doing to protect themselves in the case of Iron Man, no one knows who he or she is. It's just that there's a person in a suit of armor and they just associate, butEdward: he's associate, yeah. He's associated with Stark Corp. And so That's right. People know that Iron Man is Tony's Stark's bodyguard more than that. He's like the bodyguard for the company, the face of the company. And so, clearly if one of the top people at the company is kidnapped, Iron Man is gonna come to the rescue. And that's exactly what happened.Michael: But I think sometimes about say a royal of family or a distant relative of say the president,, if your cousins with the president, are you worried about getting kidnapped? And do you get a security detail? And the answer is no. And if you're 20th and line of the throne. Do you need a security detail because somebody kidnapped them, then it would be news. But I guess there, there is some cold comfort for people that work at Star Corp is that they're that far removed and they're not really at risk, but then again, maybe their career's not going so well, if they're not, if they're not exposed to kidnapping.Edward: That's right. This, this, you've been promoted and also kidnapped.Michael: Yeah. And they're like, thank God. Finally, you know what? They gave me a corner office and that was great and all, but it wasn't until I actually was reporting directly to Tony Stark that I was kidnapped. I was kidnapped by a Russian spyEdward: I've made it. I've made it. Mike . My career is finally taking off, and I'm a prisoner in Russia.Michael: Keep my bonus kidnapping and take me Siberia. .Edward: Is that like, I wonder if that's like a bullet on their resume for their next job was kidnapped four times. Therefore, it must be important.Michael: rescued by Iron Man three times and once by Thor. It was great. You know, recommended five stars.Edward: Yeah so this time, I dunno, we should probably cover both these kidnappings, but the first kidnapping of, pepper and Happy, was I guess a former Russian agent called Black Widow. And, someone called Hawkeye. And, Hawkeye apparently dangerous cause he did significant damage to Iron Man's Armors, Iron Man, managed to recover the two kidnappings. Black widow and Hawkeye did escape, but in the process, Iron Man's Armor was severely damaged. So this was a real threat.Michael: It is, but it's super weird, right? So Ironman's basically a living weapon. He's a rocket gun, you know. The way I understand Hawkeye is he fights with a bow and arrow and while I accept the fact that he somehow used the bow and arrow to get acid on costume. I don't think the operative part was the bow and arrow. I think it was the acid that just could eat through the suit. And my question,Edward: The arrow was a delivery vehicle for the.Michael: You could get a water gun for that , you know, especially,Edward: I'm pretty sure the wa like, I dunno if you, so I have some young children and they use water guns. Water guns do not shoot water very far. Okay. Whereas a bow and arrow, you could shoot that very far. Like maybe not as far as a sniper rifle, but a solid bow and arrow. You can shoot that thing a long wave.Michael: I know. Okay, I get that point. But I guess what I'm saying is that it seems like the only thing he's got is a bow and arrow so if he's truly the marksman, why is he not using a gun? Not that I wanted to use a gun cuz he's a bad guy. But wouldn't it be more effective in a fight if you had a gun and an earring? AccuracyEdward: Depends who you're, you're fighting against. I think if someone brought a gun to fight Iron, Man, those bullets would just bounce off his armor. But instead, well, he fired an acid arrow at him that melted his armor and practically took him.Michael: But I guess. Up your game, Hawkeye bring a rocket launcher. You know, or like, it's not gonna get bone arrow. It just the acid arrow. How it seems like the only thing that might've helped again, and in a fight between Hawkeye and Iron Man, like what else, what other arrow could he have?Edward: Maybe he has,, I could imagine many arrows, right? I can imagine. Many imagine he had like an emmp arrow that knocked out electronics. Clearly he didn't have one of those. Cause if he did, he could've taken out Iron Man with one. But he even, but maybe he should get one for next time.Michael: A projectile, like a gun. He could use, he could shoot like a little disc or something.Edward: Don't arrow guns don't. Guns don't have e emmp blockers. They don't have, there's no such arrow bullets. There's no acid bullets. These arrows do. These arrows do. Why not? Why not? ,Michael: I just think it's, Silly. I just think it's silly. It seems like he's committed. He's like, you know what? I like, I like being an archer. And they're like, hold on a second, the 17 hundreds called, they want their weapons back. And they're like, yeah, forget it. I'm sticking with it. No, it's not even the 17 hundreds, like the 14 hundreds, there's been advances in technology Hawkeye. And if you're really good at aiming things and shooting things, invest in a little. You know, gun workEdward: Well, here's my theory is that Hawkeye has some sort of incredible superpowers that'll, that give him the ability to shoot these things the same way we talked about the green goblin being able to balance on that, right? On his, on his hoverboard. I feel like Hawkeye has some sort of advanced superpowers on firing arrows. And he's combined that with incredible technology that provides these arrows that do incredible things. And I think, just because it seems silly to you, Mike, doesn't mean it's not.Michael: No, I, acknowledge that. I just, I guess I'd like to, again, like many of these superheroes I like to talk to and say, just so I understand this, have you thought about something different? Just like, explain to me why this is the process, if it's not just a shtick that you have because you like looking like, a bad Robinhood Halloween costume.Edward: I think, this is a case, Mike, where you are sitting here being the critic, right. Going and arguing against these guys, whereas he's out there risking his life actually doing this stuff and, and like I, the bad guy, I'm, I'm gonna, well he's doing evil, but at least he's doing something. He's, he's stepping up and he's, and he's taking action and he's making things happen in the world. And I, feel like sitting back and critiquing it. We should be trying to understand it and let's understand what he's doing and why he's doing it that way. But to, wave your hands and say what he's doing is dumb and stupid, man. I wanna see you go out there and fight Iron Man with your rocket launcher .Michael: I'm not, but I guess, okay. I guess I was, I just still find it silly. But no, I'm ed you've really made it, you've made some headway in this discussion. Yes. Okay. Iron, Man, keep it up or no, Iron Man haw. Keep it up. Keep it up. See how, see what happens. But I'm just saying to you right now, in a year's time, he is in jail, , and it's like, and I'd be curious. And they take away his arrows. . Yeah. I'd be curious. He says like, yeah, you know what, you know what my mistake was? I used a bow and arrow in a modern world to commit crimes instead, I should have. A gun or a rocket launcher, or a flame thrower, or even a water gun. that shot.Edward: Hey, speak. Speaking of other options, let's, let's move on to our second kidnapping of the week. So Sue Storm, kidnapped by the frightful four. All four of them, I guess, got together and took her out. Usually the fight for four are battling the entire Fantastic four. And this case they focus their efforts on one individual, on the team, kidnapped her, are now demanding the other ones come and fight them. So far nothing really exciting in the news, but I think what's interesting, maybe interesting is that, two of the dreadful four, are, if not new then rebrand.Michael: I think they're definitely rebranded, and I find it, again, I guess the theme I'm having is that it just seems kind of silly. So like, do you know what the name is?Edward: Like we talked about the silliness, . Let's give these guys some credit. They're battling the Fantastic Four. These are not clowns,Michael: not silly people. Okay. Okay, let's go through this. Okay, so we know about what's his, um, what's his real name, the Wizard's real name, uh, bent. Whitman Bentley Bettman? Yes, that's correct. Okay. Okay. So he goes from Bentley Whitman very intelligent person knowing the world over to calling himself the wizard cuz he's like super smart and he wants to out Fox the Human Torch who's a teenager. And then he's rebranded himself as a Wingless wizard cuz he's using is, he's still using his anti-gravity suit, which he had before. And my first. Who are you talking to about the branding? Like boy, the wingless part is not the interesting part of this. We already know you're the wizards so you're flying, but you and I Ed are wingless. This isn't the win the Wingless radio show. You know what I mean? I'm not the wingless lawyer. You're the winless dad of your children. The Thing.Edward: If he was, if he was armless, maybe he should call that out. But you're right, a human who is Wingless doesn't seem to be The Thing that you care about.Michael: No, it's not. It's not like, woo. I'm really intimidated. He's wingless. Watch out. He's wingless. .Edward: You can imagine all these other characteristics he does not have . The claws.Michael: Claws, you know. I don't know, like the finless, like, I guess you wouldn't be good swimming. Like it's just dumb . So it's not just, it's not just silly, it's kind of dumb.The guiltless, the guiltless wizard. , what I hope, what I hope, because he's a bad guy, he's doing bad things and he kidnapped somebody recently is, I hope that he paid a lot of money to some consultant to say, what am I missing? Why, why are people thinking I'm a bad guy, just cause I do bad things? They're like, you know what it is? It's because, you know, the wizard is so intimidating. Let's just say, to soften you up and say like, here are things you, you aren't, you're, you don't have wings, so we're gonna call you wingless and that, and everyone likes alliteration. You're the. You're the wingless wizard now. That'll be $5,000 here. Thank you very much. Goodbye, Lee. I just think it's not very good.Edward: Okay. I think we can agree the Wingless wizard was a misfire when it comes to branding. But. The other member of the team who's come up with a new name for themselves, paste Pot, Pete, which I always have a hard time saying, and yeah. Frankly, might be the worst name in the superhero business, . And it was about, it was about time he changed and he did change to what I like. Well, it's not a worst name.Michael: The Trapster. The Trapster. You know, I think the irony here is that they're on the same team and the Wisher goes to a worst name with alliteration and Pace Pot pete goes to a better name, and eliminates the alliteration. . Yeah. So it's no longer Pace Pot Pete, which is kind of like, again, pace Pot is not like, Ooh. Oh no. They might. Something sticky on me. The trapster is a little more, nefarious, right? And I think it's more intimidating if that's what you're going for as a super villain. And it just seems that maybe. Pete Trapster should go over talk to Wing Wizard and say, you know what, ,Edward: as much as we all love the alliterations, it's, they're unnecessary these days. You can, like, they're, yeah, don't, you don't need to li you don't need to put yourself in that box wizard. You could call yourself the box less wizard.Michael: Yeah, but he should say something like, Hey, I was like you before where I thought what people needed to know was have in my name was have descriptions like Pace Pot. You know, Pete wasn't enough, had to be Pace Pot, and you had to be winless, but you don't need it at all. Just go right to the name, the Wizard, and I'm the Trapster and you're Wizard. So you're smart and you're devious, and I'm. I'm gonna trap you with my pace Pot , but I'm not gonna say that part because it's just gonna happen. It's just like I'm gonna trap 'em,Edward: talk, talk, talk, talk about what you achieve, not how you achieve it.Michael: That's right. And I won't be tied down to the PACE pod cuz I have more than glue, not much, but I have more than glue I might have like genius plans.Edward: I can trap you with whatever methods I choose. .Michael: Yeah. And I might just talk to my friend, the Wizard who's super smart. He's gonna help me figure out how to do these plants and I'll just, I'll do it. Sometimes it'll evolve pace, but I'm not tied down to it. And you know what, you might just float away. But no one needs to know why. just do listen. Just do. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss two recent kidnappings: Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan by the Black Widow and Hawkeye, and Sue Storm by the Frightful Four. How senior do you need to be at StarkCorp before you are at risk of being kidnapped? Is a bow and arrow an effective weapon in the modern age? Should a wizard be defined by a lack of wings? Isn't lack of wings a common trait we all hold? All this and more - just don't call us silly!Behind the issues:As we get further into 1965, more and more issues are multi-part stories. Tales of Suspense #64 re-introduces Hawkeye as a villain, only to have him switch to being an Avenger next month in Avengers #16. Fantastic Four #38 ends with the heroes being at the epicenter of a nuclear bomb, and the after effects of that conflict continue for the next two issues. This pattern of moving beyond “supervillain of the month” becomes more regular with all of the titles over the next few months.In this issue:Tales of Suspense #64In the first story, Black Widow meets up with Hawkeye again. She explains how she has been pressed into service for the USSR, and that they have designed her fancy new costume replete with weapons and gadgets. She enlists Hawkeye with her task, to destroy Iron Man. To that end, they kidnap Happy and Pepper in an effort to attract Iron Man to their trap. Iron Man shows up, and Hawkeye and Black Widow nearly take him down. Fortunately, Iron Man rescues his friends, as the supervillains (soon to be superheroes) flee.The second story is a Captain America tale from WWII, when he had a secret identify as a first class screwup in the US Army. In this tale, Cap and Bucky battle a team of Nazis who have set up an innocent man who shows American audiences on a large crystal ball showing the awful future that awaits the US if it joins in the war. Cap and Bucky are able to break this propaganda show up. In the course of this story, we meet Agent Thirteen for the first time.Fantastic Four #38The Wingless Wizard (formerly the Wizard) argues with his teammates in the Frightful Four, the Trapster (formerly Paste Pot Pete), Medusa, and Sandman, and ultimately establishes why he is their leader with his mastery of gravity (basically he can fling things around with his anti-gravity tech). The Frightful Four kidnap Sue Storm, and the world takes notice. They take her to a small atoll in the ocean, and the Fantastic Four give chase, tracking them down and attacking the other foursome. The Human Torch is captured but then rescued by Reed and Ben, and the battle between the two foursomes then begins in earnest. Ultimately, the Frightful Four leave the atoll, leaving the Fantastic Four on the island moments before it is to be blown up by a bomb. The bomb detonates, but fortunately Sue protects her teammates in a force field, floating unconscious on the water's surface.Assumed before the next episode:People are wondering what the deal is with these superpowered people and the number 4.This episode takes place:After the Frightful Four have bested the Fantastic Four, and assume they have been blown up.Full Transcript:Edward: Mike, it is kidnapping week here on the show, ,Michael: and I didn't even mark it in my calendar, but you're right. Every year it creeps up on me every year. Kidnapping week, you know, I just think really it's kidnapping week. It's been that long. Oh gee.Edward: Yeah. Yeah. It's time for the friends and family of our heroes to be put at risk where the villains come in and, use them as leverage to. I dunno, I guess to get the heroes to fight. Why, they couldn't have just got them to fight before, it feels like most of these heroes won't turn down a chance to fight with these villains. Like I think the kidnapping part is a little unnecessary.Michael: It does seem unnecessary and maybe that's why we're taking a little jaunty view of it, where yes, they're being kidnapped, but it usually works out , no one's really injured. It makes it seem almost like a juvenile game between the super villains and the superheroes.Edward: And in this particular case, two of the top people at, Stark Corp, pepper Pots and Happy, I'm sorry, I don't know Happy's last name. Happy Hogan. Happy Hogan. Yeah. Happy Hogan. We're kidnapped. Everyone can, Breathe easy. They have all been rescued. Iron, Man has rescued them from the kidnapping. So they're back at home. Happy is now happy. And meanwhile, Sue Storm from the Fantastic Four, the actual superhero Sue Storm, has also been kidnapped by the Frightful four. And she's not yet been returned. So that the case is still out. Although with her powers, she's gonna be much easier to protect herself than Pepper and happier.Michael: I guess, we'll see how it all shakes out, but on a more serious note there is a concern about these connections with these superheroes that leave them exposed to risk. You gotta wonder about what they're doing to protect themselves in the case of Iron Man, no one knows who he or she is. It's just that there's a person in a suit of armor and they just associate, butEdward: he's associate, yeah. He's associated with Stark Corp. And so That's right. People know that Iron Man is Tony's Stark's bodyguard more than that. He's like the bodyguard for the company, the face of the company. And so, clearly if one of the top people at the company is kidnapped, Iron Man is gonna come to the rescue. And that's exactly what happened.Michael: But I think sometimes about say a royal of family or a distant relative of say the president,, if your cousins with the president, are you worried about getting kidnapped? And do you get a security detail? And the answer is no. And if you're 20th and line of the throne. Do you need a security detail because somebody kidnapped them, then it would be news. But I guess there, there is some cold comfort for people that work at Star Corp is that they're that far removed and they're not really at risk, but then again, maybe their career's not going so well, if they're not, if they're not exposed to kidnapping.Edward: That's right. This, this, you've been promoted and also kidnapped.Michael: Yeah. And they're like, thank God. Finally, you know what? They gave me a corner office and that was great and all, but it wasn't until I actually was reporting directly to Tony Stark that I was kidnapped. I was kidnapped by a Russian spyEdward: I've made it. I've made it. Mike . My career is finally taking off, and I'm a prisoner in Russia.Michael: Keep my bonus kidnapping and take me Siberia. .Edward: Is that like, I wonder if that's like a bullet on their resume for their next job was kidnapped four times. Therefore, it must be important.Michael: rescued by Iron Man three times and once by Thor. It was great. You know, recommended five stars.Edward: Yeah so this time, I dunno, we should probably cover both these kidnappings, but the first kidnapping of, pepper and Happy, was I guess a former Russian agent called Black Widow. And, someone called Hawkeye. And, Hawkeye apparently dangerous cause he did significant damage to Iron Man's Armors, Iron Man, managed to recover the two kidnappings. Black widow and Hawkeye did escape, but in the process, Iron Man's Armor was severely damaged. So this was a real threat.Michael: It is, but it's super weird, right? So Ironman's basically a living weapon. He's a rocket gun, you know. The way I understand Hawkeye is he fights with a bow and arrow and while I accept the fact that he somehow used the bow and arrow to get acid on costume. I don't think the operative part was the bow and arrow. I think it was the acid that just could eat through the suit. And my question,Edward: The arrow was a delivery vehicle for the.Michael: You could get a water gun for that , you know, especially,Edward: I'm pretty sure the wa like, I dunno if you, so I have some young children and they use water guns. Water guns do not shoot water very far. Okay. Whereas a bow and arrow, you could shoot that very far. Like maybe not as far as a sniper rifle, but a solid bow and arrow. You can shoot that thing a long wave.Michael: I know. Okay, I get that point. But I guess what I'm saying is that it seems like the only thing he's got is a bow and arrow so if he's truly the marksman, why is he not using a gun? Not that I wanted to use a gun cuz he's a bad guy. But wouldn't it be more effective in a fight if you had a gun and an earring? AccuracyEdward: Depends who you're, you're fighting against. I think if someone brought a gun to fight Iron, Man, those bullets would just bounce off his armor. But instead, well, he fired an acid arrow at him that melted his armor and practically took him.Michael: But I guess. Up your game, Hawkeye bring a rocket launcher. You know, or like, it's not gonna get bone arrow. It just the acid arrow. How it seems like the only thing that might've helped again, and in a fight between Hawkeye and Iron Man, like what else, what other arrow could he have?Edward: Maybe he has,, I could imagine many arrows, right? I can imagine. Many imagine he had like an emmp arrow that knocked out electronics. Clearly he didn't have one of those. Cause if he did, he could've taken out Iron Man with one. But he even, but maybe he should get one for next time.Michael: A projectile, like a gun. He could use, he could shoot like a little disc or something.Edward: Don't arrow guns don't. Guns don't have e emmp blockers. They don't have, there's no such arrow bullets. There's no acid bullets. These arrows do. These arrows do. Why not? Why not? ,Michael: I just think it's, Silly. I just think it's silly. It seems like he's committed. He's like, you know what? I like, I like being an archer. And they're like, hold on a second, the 17 hundreds called, they want their weapons back. And they're like, yeah, forget it. I'm sticking with it. No, it's not even the 17 hundreds, like the 14 hundreds, there's been advances in technology Hawkeye. And if you're really good at aiming things and shooting things, invest in a little. You know, gun workEdward: Well, here's my theory is that Hawkeye has some sort of incredible superpowers that'll, that give him the ability to shoot these things the same way we talked about the green goblin being able to balance on that, right? On his, on his hoverboard. I feel like Hawkeye has some sort of advanced superpowers on firing arrows. And he's combined that with incredible technology that provides these arrows that do incredible things. And I think, just because it seems silly to you, Mike, doesn't mean it's not.Michael: No, I, acknowledge that. I just, I guess I'd like to, again, like many of these superheroes I like to talk to and say, just so I understand this, have you thought about something different? Just like, explain to me why this is the process, if it's not just a shtick that you have because you like looking like, a bad Robinhood Halloween costume.Edward: I think, this is a case, Mike, where you are sitting here being the critic, right. Going and arguing against these guys, whereas he's out there risking his life actually doing this stuff and, and like I, the bad guy, I'm, I'm gonna, well he's doing evil, but at least he's doing something. He's, he's stepping up and he's, and he's taking action and he's making things happen in the world. And I, feel like sitting back and critiquing it. We should be trying to understand it and let's understand what he's doing and why he's doing it that way. But to, wave your hands and say what he's doing is dumb and stupid, man. I wanna see you go out there and fight Iron Man with your rocket launcher .Michael: I'm not, but I guess, okay. I guess I was, I just still find it silly. But no, I'm ed you've really made it, you've made some headway in this discussion. Yes. Okay. Iron, Man, keep it up or no, Iron Man haw. Keep it up. Keep it up. See how, see what happens. But I'm just saying to you right now, in a year's time, he is in jail, , and it's like, and I'd be curious. And they take away his arrows. . Yeah. I'd be curious. He says like, yeah, you know what, you know what my mistake was? I used a bow and arrow in a modern world to commit crimes instead, I should have. A gun or a rocket launcher, or a flame thrower, or even a water gun. that shot.Edward: Hey, speak. Speaking of other options, let's, let's move on to our second kidnapping of the week. So Sue Storm, kidnapped by the frightful four. All four of them, I guess, got together and took her out. Usually the fight for four are battling the entire Fantastic four. And this case they focus their efforts on one individual, on the team, kidnapped her, are now demanding the other ones come and fight them. So far nothing really exciting in the news, but I think what's interesting, maybe interesting is that, two of the dreadful four, are, if not new then rebrand.Michael: I think they're definitely rebranded, and I find it, again, I guess the theme I'm having is that it just seems kind of silly. So like, do you know what the name is?Edward: Like we talked about the silliness, . Let's give these guys some credit. They're battling the Fantastic Four. These are not clowns,Michael: not silly people. Okay. Okay, let's go through this. Okay, so we know about what's his, um, what's his real name, the Wizard's real name, uh, bent. Whitman Bentley Bettman? Yes, that's correct. Okay. Okay. So he goes from Bentley Whitman very intelligent person knowing the world over to calling himself the wizard cuz he's like super smart and he wants to out Fox the Human Torch who's a teenager. And then he's rebranded himself as a Wingless wizard cuz he's using is, he's still using his anti-gravity suit, which he had before. And my first. Who are you talking to about the branding? Like boy, the wingless part is not the interesting part of this. We already know you're the wizards so you're flying, but you and I Ed are wingless. This isn't the win the Wingless radio show. You know what I mean? I'm not the wingless lawyer. You're the winless dad of your children. The Thing.Edward: If he was, if he was armless, maybe he should call that out. But you're right, a human who is Wingless doesn't seem to be The Thing that you care about.Michael: No, it's not. It's not like, woo. I'm really intimidated. He's wingless. Watch out. He's wingless. .Edward: You can imagine all these other characteristics he does not have . The claws.Michael: Claws, you know. I don't know, like the finless, like, I guess you wouldn't be good swimming. Like it's just dumb . So it's not just, it's not just silly, it's kind of dumb.The guiltless, the guiltless wizard. , what I hope, what I hope, because he's a bad guy, he's doing bad things and he kidnapped somebody recently is, I hope that he paid a lot of money to some consultant to say, what am I missing? Why, why are people thinking I'm a bad guy, just cause I do bad things? They're like, you know what it is? It's because, you know, the wizard is so intimidating. Let's just say, to soften you up and say like, here are things you, you aren't, you're, you don't have wings, so we're gonna call you wingless and that, and everyone likes alliteration. You're the. You're the wingless wizard now. That'll be $5,000 here. Thank you very much. Goodbye, Lee. I just think it's not very good.Edward: Okay. I think we can agree the Wingless wizard was a misfire when it comes to branding. But. The other member of the team who's come up with a new name for themselves, paste Pot, Pete, which I always have a hard time saying, and yeah. Frankly, might be the worst name in the superhero business, . And it was about, it was about time he changed and he did change to what I like. Well, it's not a worst name.Michael: The Trapster. The Trapster. You know, I think the irony here is that they're on the same team and the Wisher goes to a worst name with alliteration and Pace Pot pete goes to a better name, and eliminates the alliteration. . Yeah. So it's no longer Pace Pot Pete, which is kind of like, again, pace Pot is not like, Ooh. Oh no. They might. Something sticky on me. The trapster is a little more, nefarious, right? And I think it's more intimidating if that's what you're going for as a super villain. And it just seems that maybe. Pete Trapster should go over talk to Wing Wizard and say, you know what, ,Edward: as much as we all love the alliterations, it's, they're unnecessary these days. You can, like, they're, yeah, don't, you don't need to li you don't need to put yourself in that box wizard. You could call yourself the box less wizard.Michael: Yeah, but he should say something like, Hey, I was like you before where I thought what people needed to know was have in my name was have descriptions like Pace Pot. You know, Pete wasn't enough, had to be Pace Pot, and you had to be winless, but you don't need it at all. Just go right to the name, the Wizard, and I'm the Trapster and you're Wizard. So you're smart and you're devious, and I'm. I'm gonna trap you with my pace Pot , but I'm not gonna say that part because it's just gonna happen. It's just like I'm gonna trap 'em,Edward: talk, talk, talk, talk about what you achieve, not how you achieve it.Michael: That's right. And I won't be tied down to the PACE pod cuz I have more than glue, not much, but I have more than glue I might have like genius plans.Edward: I can trap you with whatever methods I choose. .Michael: Yeah. And I might just talk to my friend, the Wizard who's super smart. He's gonna help me figure out how to do these plants and I'll just, I'll do it. Sometimes it'll evolve pace, but I'm not tied down to it. And you know what, you might just float away. But no one needs to know why. just do listen. Just do. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss the battle between the Avengers and the Masters of Evil - not to be confused with the Brotherhood of Evil. Ed explains the importance of differentiation in your brand - you don't want to be confused for someone else. Mike wants to know if every superhero also has to be a tailor in their spare time. How many costumes does someone like Spider-Man own? Is his summer costume made with different material than his winter costume? Is the real benefit of being on a super team the laundry services? And why is Giant-Man re-branding yet again? The red and blue suits you, big guy, now stop fiddling with it and just embrace the fit!Behind the issue:This is the last full issue of this Avengers roster. The next issue, Avengers #16, completely changes the membership (more on that when we cover that issue). This issue ends on a cliffhanger but is wrapped up quickly in the next issue. The battle is used as the driver of why most of the team members decide to leave the organization. Also in this issue, Captain America battles Baron Zemo one-on-one and kills him. But that takes place in a far away country and is, at this point, unknown to the wider public.In this issue:Steve Rogers is contemplating a career change. As he does so, he notices the supervillains the Enchantress and the Executioner drive by, and he chases after them but they get away. Steve changes into his Captain America gear and reports back to the Avengers about the evil duo being in the city. They resolve to deal with them, but before they can do so, Rick Jones is kidnapped right in front of them by henchmen working for Baron Zemo. The Enchantress and the Executioner then break the Black Knight and the Melter out of prison and have them join their team with Zemo, the Masters of Evil. Iron Man and Thor do battle with the Black Knight and the Melter high above the city, while Giant-Man and the Wasp chase after the Enchantress and the Executioner at street level. The villains are ultimately defeated. At the same time, on a separate mission, Captain America locates Rick and frees him, with Zemo dying in the process by his own hand (accidentally).Assumed before the next episode:People are keeping an eye out in the streets for large muscular people in costumes, and then running for their lives so they are not caught up in a super-person battle.This episode takes place:After the Avengers have defeated the Masters of Evil.Full transcript:Edward: All right. That's what I'm talking about, Mike. We got the Avengers fighting a League of Evil super villains in the city. They're back to doing what we pay them to do.Michael: Or somebody pays them to do , but definitelyEdward: our tax dollars at work. Mike, our tax dollars at work,Michael: back to business, doing what we want them to do and not dealing with what was the last thing that they're caught up in, just. Regular,Edward: regular, regular what wasn't like giant man dealing with the mafia, I just felt like know, like get, get, get back on track. We have police that can deal with the regular stuff, but when you have a guy who can melt walls and an enchant who's casting magic spells and an as guardian and executioner, now is the time to step in with superpower people.Michael: That's right if we're anything Ed, we definitely believe in specialties and specialists. and superheroes are by definition specialists in super villains, not just, you know, rescuing cats stuck in trees and, and, uh,Edward: oh, my, I would be mundane, angry if Thor was spending his time getting cats outta trees.like, I feel like, like, not, not a good use of tax dollars. I dunno what we're paying him, but I figure we could pay someone a lot less to get the cats outta the trees. .Michael: But that being said, if my cat got stuck in a tree, I'd rather Thor flew up there than I had to climb a tree and possibly break my neck trying to rescue the bloody cat. But anyways,Edward: I, okay. Like you are not specialized in getting cats outta trees, that is not your specialty either. You stick to the law. Thor sticks to the super villains, and we can get the firefighters to get the cats out of the trees.Michael: All right. I think we've settled on it, on what should happen, certainly with cats and trees, but also with superheroes addressing super villains and so, It's back to business as usual, not great that we had to have them as, you know, having evil super villains, the masters of evil coming back and battling the Avengers, but at least, yeah, fine. The Avengers are tackling this discreet issue.Edward: Let's not even talk about the fact they're called the Masters of Evil. Again, we have the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, we have the Masters of Evil, we have the frightful four. Like these guys are just throwing themselves out there as being, I am not to be trusted.Michael: I know. Bless. I don't know. It's like good and evil are just, there's no like room for gray in here. Maybe there's . There's no misunderstanding.Edward: The masters of Gray we're the brotherhood of ambiguity, .Michael: How about misunderstood, tough childhood and trying to work through it. People together in a union, fighting for own version of justiceEdward: I will say as a marketing guy the bigger problem is, it's just confusing because right, there's the brotherhood of evil, but, and there's the masters of evil, like, I think. The evil is the key word in both those brands and it's easy to confuse them. Mm-hmm. So to be clear, the masters of evil who fought the Avengers this week there was the melter who could melt metal, not magni, who could move metal. Totally different people, unrelated, different teams, different names, but the same team name. Using that evil.Michael: There's some overlap there I guess, but I think they maybe, well you gotta wonder why they haven't consulted with, an agency about branding, which would make sense.Edward: So the key thing on branding is, number one is be descriptive. And I guess they're being descriptive. We are evil, mean people. And they've handled that part of it. But you also need to differentiate yourself. The other people who are doing similar work. And so if there's two teams of evil people doing evil super stuff, you just can't, you need to find a new name for yourself. And Frightful four does it, right? Frightful four does not use the evil name. They went to their local Theora and they've, looked up evil and they're like, you know what else is similar to evil is frightful. How about frightful instead of evil? And they're like, let's go with it. And there's no confusion there. But I think Masters of Evil and Brotherhood of Evil, to me, those are too close. And one of them should re. .Michael: That leads to the next question. We talked about lawyers might specialize in super powered people and insurance might be responsive to it. I wonder if there's any, well you would know, are there any agencies that deal with this kind of stuff?Edward: I don't think it's, the market's not big enough, Mike. The market's not big enough. Hmm. And, and especially if you're dealing with, nobody wants to be the marketing agency to. The criminals and the mafia. There's no mafia doesn't have a marketing agency working for them. They might have marketers as part of their team, but it's not like they need, they don't need them the way they need, lawyers and accountants.Michael: I'm not saying that General Electric is evil or anything, but you know, , they, they, they definitely, and they, they don't practiceEdward: the, the General Electric of Evil .Michael: No, but I mean like, like they're big corporations that, that, actually I don't wanna get sued by General Electric never meant nevermind about that. But, but regardless, I would imagine that there's agencies that would, for the right price would certain. Wanna be engaged by the Masters of Evil to say, let's call yourselves, maybe not the masters of evil, but the master, you know, the brotherhood of people. I don't know. Or something. Brotherhood of people. Some kinda, some kinda like, I said the, brotherhood of evil. Like the idea is like there's some kind of more palatable name that they could have to achieve their goals. I would imagineEdward: they could take the name they have right now, instead of the Masters of Evil, just be like, How about just the masters? The masters, the masters of super, the ma, the masters of powers, take the other characteristics they have other than evilness and lean. Lean into those. .Michael: Yeah. Like maybe like, they're really smart, I don't think if they're getting in fights with the Avengers, they need people to tell them that they're the antagonist in this dispute. Cuz the Avengers have clearly occupied the superhero world. Why don't you just call them some, call themselves something else? Like the masters or the, uh, the terrifics or something. It's the positive. Be positive by yourself, the public.Edward: Take the Avengers name and play that. Like, they can be the Avengers, like they can, they're the anti Avengers and the anti Avengers. You could define yourselves as being the opposite of your competitor.Michael: And leave it open as to whether they're in the wrong or not, that's what I find so confusing about the branding of automatically saying, we are definitely in the wrong, we are evil people. Evil, evil, evil. Or we are frightful, terrible, terrible people, , we just call themselves the amazing four, let people find out that they're bad. ,Edward: surprise, also evil.Michael: Surprised I was evil. But you know, we kind of had you there. You bought our action figures, because we're the amazing four hey Rob banks and try to destroy nuclear powered, power stations. But anyways. Mm-hmm. we're the amazings,Edward: I think the part of the has become is we don't see a lot of rebranding we've seen groupings of superheroes that come together and created a new brand, but the Avengers haven't decided, oh, we're gonna change our name. Or the Fantastic Four haven't been like, you know what? We've, we totally made a mistake. There is a possibility we could add a fifth member . Um, we need a new name. Um, yeah. It seems like everybody's commit. Well, I guess with one exception, ant Man has rebranded, right? Right. But apart, but apart from Ant Man, everybody's basically stuck with the. Brand since they started. We have any superhero that's switched brands along the way, or super villain for that. .Michael: No. And again, I kind of was being a little tongue in cheek about having agencies that might be involved in branding, but there's probably something to it, if not the name, certainly in the costumes or the outlook or the perspective on, or at least the narrative that they wanna advance. Because we do know that there are some superheroes who are more popular than others, why is Captain America more popular than Spider-Man? It might. because of the name. It might be because he's not covering his whole face. It might be just a costume, but, I'd imagine that there's something there. There's value in being popular and being celebrities as we know the fantastic force. Certainly there's a value in that and a financial benefit to that. So you think it might be worth their time to actually consult? Maybe a lot of them have, certainly the Fantastic four have already consulted with a brand expert and they say, you know, yeah, sure you might be limited in your membership numbers, but you're doing everything else right? You have a very clean, clear lines in your costumes. You're not hiding your face. You don't even have se secret entities. And that's led to them being not only popular, but making money from the whole enterprise. And you gotta wonder, maybe other people would. From it. Or they've already gone through it and just are just trying to play out the whole marketing plan.Edward: We don't know what's going on behind the scenes. We can just see the effects and like I can say there are certain things that are pretty consistent in the world of branding that are important. Mm-hmm. , so things like affiliating your brand with good things. , right? So this is why we run advertisements. That's why beer commercials show people drinking beer and having fun. And now you say, oh, you know what, if I drink beer, maybe I will have fun too. Maybe I will be surrounded by attractive women. And I think there's no difference in superheroes where if Spider-Man is continually getting affiliated with bad things, we start to affiliate Spider-Man as being bad. And if Captain America's affiliated with winning World War ii, which was a pretty good thing that. Leans off onto his brand. So that's number one. Number two is brand longevity matters a lot too. So a brand that's been around for a long time, people tend to like the things that stick around. And part of that's a trust thing because if you have a brand that's brand new, you don't know whether to trust it or not. But if something's been around, like ivory soap has been around for 60 years or something like that, they have a pretty good consistent record on, they're gonna do, they're gonna make you clean. And I think that's part of the reason why Captain America is so loved is he's been around longer time and they, he's consistently stuck on message and delivered that same message over and over and over again, over an extended period of time. And so we can trust him. But Spider-Man, he's like a brand new dude who knows what's what he's gonna do.Michael: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Well, yeah. And of course, this is something you have an expertise in about branding. But that leads to the question then. But the question I asked earlier is do you think that most these of these superheroes have consulted with a brand expert?Edward: No. No, of course not. No. they not talking to anybody. They peop, but like, just like most companies don't spend a lot of time with brand experts. They figure out things on their own, uh, and mm-hmm. and the biggest companies have lot. They're spending money on everything. But smaller companies, and I think most superheroes, you can think of them as fairly small companies. They're small, like little tiny startups trying to figure stuff out and they're not gonna have a budget to go. Spiderman doesn't a budget these spending on public relations people and a marketing team and a advertising organization and like they, they don't have that stuff. Most celebrities may have a publicist and a manager at best. And I think most superheroes are behind. .Michael: Well then let's talk about the one superhero who seems to be constantly rebranding and who would probably benefit from having some assistance. Antman, I mean, giant Man. I mean, okay. , whatever he is. How many costume ?Edward: Well, he's just had three. Right. So he had Antman and he was fairly consistent as Aunt Man. Yeah. And then he rebranded to Giant Man, and that was very confusing. Yeah. For a long time we didn't even know the Giant Man and Antman were the same person. And then, and now he has a new costume again, so this is. His second rebrand, and as far as I know, he's sticking with the name this time. He's not rebranding the name, just the look and. .Michael: But it's sort of funny, so if you go through those cautions first, when he is ant man, he clearly looked like, he's small and stuff and it's just like a red costume and stuff. And then when he is giant man, he still had those sort of funny antennas on his, head that suggests like, all right, okay, and he's bigger, he's walking around and like all giant, he's a giant now. He's a giant ant. Like it's just like, why don't you just call yourself like big aunt or something, and then, cuz that's what he's like, why if you're now giant, man, when I think of giants, I don't think of having an antennas on their heads, but whatever. That's what he did and now he seems to have. Well, let me think about, look at the news. Did he, does he still have those antenna on his head in his new costume?Edward: I don't even know. I haven't, I should have done more research. I feel like I haven't spent time really examining this new costume of hisMichael: Well, regardless, it's another rebranding and so that's where I'm wondering. Okay. If he, if this isn't part of a plan, then what is it? Is it just that he's like, I don't know, I don't say this, but insecure about his, you know, he's just like, oh gosh, doesn't make me look so good.Edward: So I think it's like, Hey, stay. Staying with a consistent costume can't be easy on any of these guys. Now the advantage is they don't need to think of what they're gonna wear in the morning, but the disadvantages is how many costumes do they have to have? Like you, you and I, I think I have a fairly consistent brand in terms of what I wear. I don't wear, I'm not gonna show up to work in like, I don't know, green tights. I'm gonna wear the consistent clothes every time I go to work. , but it doesn't mean I wear exactly the same clothes. I might have a blue suit or a black suit. I might wear a white collar or a blue collar. I feel like I can change up within a range. Yeah. It feels like superheroes don't do that and maybe giant man is just trying that. He's like, you know what, today, I just didn't feel like the antennas.Michael: Well, okay. Just to loop back on that, I've looked at the, the reporting still going with the antennas, , I don't get it, but regardless,Edward: he's, keeping, so there you go. That's his consistent theme. Yeah. He was like, he was an ant man to a giant man, to a, new giant man, and he kept like the ant theme all the way along. And, that's a branding choice too. So you take some brand elements and you carry them forward so people can still, when they walk into the store to pick up their. Tide, the new Tide brand looks different, but it looks similar enough to the old brand. They're not gonna get confused.Michael: Okay. So he is following some of the rules that you've identified, but when you're talking about this costume idea, so leaving aside the branding issue is just how is it working with costumes? Because, you know, like I like to exercise as you, as you know, and so do you, and I've got a number of outfits that I use. For any other reason than practicality. If I exercise, I need to wash the clothing right away. So these guys are like, let's say take Spider-Man for example. That guy is swinging through the city. He must be sweating like crazy . And you think he just goes home? Is he doing laundry every single night,Edward: Do you think he has a summer version of his costume and a winter version? When it's cold out, he wears his warm tights and then the summer he's wearing I dunno, really, really thin tights.Michael: You'd have to, it'd be a winter weight and a summer weight but also on top of that, in the summer, you probably have to have way more versions of this costume . And so who's making it for him? Or is he just laundering it every night? Who made it to begin with, but then. , who's clean, who's continuing to make other costumes for 'em, or same version of the costume, which looks complicated. You see all the design elements and then clean.Edward: I guarantee if I was a superhero, I would be wearing block colors. There's no way I'm gonna making, these are like small black lines on my, I'd be like, I'm gonna wear red and I'm gonna go buy some red stuff and just make a red costume. The idea of sewing together the blue and the red, and then to your point, not doing it once. It's not like the guy behind Spider-Man's mask is, maybe he's a tailor for his side job, but, he's not making one costume. To your point. He, he must have dozens of costumes for the different seasons and, for the smell. If he has so many and to make them all identical.Michael: Yeah, it's quite an enterprise and to my knowledge, I don't think Spider-Man makes money from what he's doing so it's quite an investment. It's not just one costume. Maybe he could have gotten away with having a few of those costumes if he just was dressed in all black, for instance, with a funny mask and maybe you don't to, well, he had to wash the mask every night. If you're wearing this full head on mask, It probably It would stink too.Edward: Yeah, like crazy. And maybe that's, maybe he only has one or two costumes and he just washes them every night. He goes home. He has his own, he's clearly not taking them to like a public, dry cleaners. He probably has his washing dryer in his house and he's just running the washer and dryer. Every he gets home, takes off his outfit, washes it, dries it, and it's ready to go the next day.Michael: Or has the most discreet laundromat in the world, , you know, in addition to the most discreet Taylor, but that's not just him, right? It's all the, these heroes, they present with the same costume. And if we're comparing them to say, The police or the military, they have multiple versions of their outfits when they're on duty, when they have to wear outfits for work. It's mindblowing to me. So let's go to a team element, I'd imagine that, if you want to find out, I suspect they all know who each other are on this, on the Avengers. So we wonder if, find out who they were. I bet if they all are having their costumes washed by somebody or they're having mul tailors, , you know, prepare their costumes for, somebody's gonna speak about it. You know what I mean? It should, they should find out. Oh,Edward: well the Avengers are different though, right? The Avengers, we know they we're close with Star Corp. I'm sure Star Corp has like a supply of tailors and stuff to make these costumes, right? So whatever giant man's secret identity is, he's not taking the costume to a tailor a secret identity. He's just passing it into the, through the stark corpse team of people and they make the costume. They probably have industrial cleaners that take care of it every night for them. I think that's all veryMichael: standardized. . Can you imagine? What's your job? It's star carp. Okay, I've got a really top secret job, but job, I can't talk about it. And then as this man's telling his wife, I can't even talk about my job. It's star carp. I just cannot tell you. I can't tell you what I do. And then he's sitting alone in a dark room. He's like, I wash giant man's clothing. .Edward: I get, I get, that's what I do. I get the stand. You think your trouble tough, he was attacked by a lava monster. Getting lava stains out of these costumes is impossible.Michael: yeah. It's just like it. But that's what it would have to be. , it would be top secret, right? To keep his identity secret. So whoever's washing his clothing would have to like oh. Under, under penalty of like imprisonment. Don't tell, you can't tell anybody. You know anything about Captain America's the underwear he wears outside of his pants or whatever. It's just wild to me. It's just what a job.Edward: Well, I think I, we figured out the number one recruiting technique. I feel like if I'm an independent hero now, the number one reason to join the Avengers is not the money. It's not the fame , it's the laundry service.Michael: Sign me up, Eddie. Sign me up. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

In this episode we explore how each individual brings unique gifts and characteristics to the life and ministry. The challenge is "fitting in" to a system that seemingly calls for conformity. Reconciliation, forgiveness, and heartfelt service is manifested in this movie. In the words of Michael: "You need to show them you care before you can tell them what you know" --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/jeffrey-skopak/support

In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss the peace treaty between Earth and the Skrull Empire, as negotiated by Reed Richards and the Fantastic Four. How does Reed have the authority to sign such a treaty on behalf of Earth? Do the ends justify the means? Don't the Fantastic Four have a conflict of interest given that a Skrull killed Sue Storm's father? How would we feel if a Russian super team completed this negotiation? And now that we have gone to another galaxy, are we going to be able to go to Mars?More detailed summary of the podcast (from AI):Edward and Michael are discussing the Fantastic Four's recent mission to the Skrull's home world. Edward believes that peace has been achieved, thanks to the efforts of Reed Richards. Michael is skeptical and points out that there is no evidence to support Reed's claims, and that the Fantastic Four's actions could be seen as hostile and unauthorized. He questions who authorized the mission and if it was sanctioned by the United Nations. Edward believes that sometimes the US needs to take action, even if it's not sanctioned by the UN, and that in this case, it worked out. Michael is concerned about what would happen if it didn't work out.Behind the issue:This is the first appearance of the Skrull home world, but it is not named here (and is not named until 1983 — “Tarnax IV”). The Skrulls keep their promise not to invade Earth for three years, but change their minds in Captain Marvel #2 when they discover that the Kree had an interest in the planet.In this issue:Sue Storm is unhappy that the Skrulls were not punished for killing her father. This leads to Reed Richards deciding to take the team to the Skrulls' homeworld to bring the murderer of Sue's father to justice. And so the team embarks on this mission, flying in a spaceship of Reed's design, and with the blessing of NASA. They land on the Skrull. homeward and battle the Skrulls, leading to their capture. They are held captive by the Skrull who murdered Sue's father, Morrat, who plans to murder the Fantastic Four too. Just before they are killed, Reed offers Morrat unlimited power in exchange for sparing their lives. Meanwhile, Morrat's girlfriend Anelle tells her father, the Skrull King, that Morrat has captured the Fantastic Four. This angers the King, who races to confront Morrat. Before he arrives, it is revealed that Reed tricked Morrat into repowering the team (they had been depowered when they were captured), and this time the Four are about to defeat the Skrulls when the King arrives with reinforcements. Anelle is nearly killed by accident by the soldiers during their standoff with the Fantastic Four but is saved by Sue's invisible forcefield. This leads to Reed negotiating with the King to deliver to them the Skrull who killed Sue's father. They learn that it was Morrrat, who has been killed in the firefight. The Fantastic Four then journey home, safe and sound from their adventure.Assumed before the next episode:Reed starts to wonder how far he will go to impress Sue. What do you do after nearly starting an intergalactic war?This episode takes place:After the Fantastic Four return from their wildly irresponsible revenge mission to the Skrull homeward.Full transcript:Edward: Reed Richards has done it again, Mike. There is peace in the world. Peace in the universe. There's peace in the galaxy in the entire universe. We are no longer at war with the scrolls. Thank you. Reed. Richards.Michael: Well, okay. ? Yes. If we believe what Reed Richards says, then sure. But much like a lot of Reed Richard. Advice to us about battles and adventures that are unseen. There's no other proof beyond his good word. And what's kind of crazy right now is that what we're talking about is how Reed Richards and his team, the Fantastic Four, went to the scroll home world.Edward: That's right. We took the battle to them. They've been invading us, and we said, you know what? Enough of this, we're gonna take the battle over. I was gonna say overseas, but it's not overseas. It's over stars. What do we have vocabulary for? What they.Michael: over empty space. They went to the squirrel home world. A home world of people of, sorry, of like beings that can shapeshift and turn into,Edward: I think you can call them people. I think squirrels are people.Michael: Well, okay, let's call 'em people. They,Edward: they're not human people, but they're still people. Like, I think that we can use the broad definition of people. I think it could be insulting to call them. Not people. They're an animals. They're, they're people.Michael: Okay, well, sure, we'll call 'em people. So, but they're people that can take the form of anybody. So we're taking the word of Reed. Richards that he. To the scroll home world to negotiate a peace treaty, but at the same time also bring a killer to justice like somebody who killed his future father-in-law to justice. So let's break this down a little bit. ,Edward: there's a lot going on here, Mike. And we haven't even gone to the fact they didn't go there alone. They combine the technology that they've developed with research scientists at NASA in order to develop this, subspace traveler to travel to other galaxies. Like we've just opened up the universe for human explor.Michael: Okay. That's fascinating. And so, and I,Edward: you don't seem to care, like you don't seem to care on theseMichael: I aren't you, Lou, aren't you a little worried, ed, that it looks like either, there's a few things happening. Number one, the Fantastic Four took it upon themselves to basically invade a planet for no shifting people.Edward: It was with, nasa, it was Fantasic, Four, and nasa.Michael: I haven't read that being, I know that they had NASA technology, but did NASA Greenlight the plan to go invade another planet, to grab somebody and then also negotiate a peace treaty? And does NASA has a capability to do that? Is that within their authority?I doubt it. Number one, ,Edward: I don't know. I'm not sure The founding fathers really decided on what NASA could or could not do, was wasn't on their list of priorities when they were making the constitution in the 1700.Michael: Well, it, it wouldn't be, but that's just assuming that this only affects America, which it doesn't. What happened here is that American citizens went to another planet and in a hostile way to grab one of their citizens to bring them to justice, number one. And number two then apparently had free reign to negotiate a peace treaty with these people. And that isn't,Edward: what do you prefer? They didn't, Mike, do you want them to go there and then start a war? They went there and they ended a war. That's good. That's good news.Michael: Well, I don't know. I mean, this is what we're hearing.Edward: What you don't know. You don't know. Do you want us to be at war with them? You, we. Peace is good news, right? We can agree on.Michael: No, no, but hold on a second. We have to go through the proper channels on this to figure out this is done right, and this is actually in our interest. So number one, who green lit this? Who authorized this? Is this an American thing only or is this on behalf of the world? Did they go to the United Nations and get, and somehow, for the first time in human history, Get all the nations to agree to one thing, which was that we're gonna send these four people who aren't trained in any form of diplomacy to go there in an active war and negotiate peace. That is wild to me that that would be authorized by anybody.Edward: Well, I'm pretty sure the UN did not authorize it, but if we waited for the UN to authorize things, nothing would get done and we'd still be at war with the scrolls. And so sometimes the US has to take things into their own hands and just take action. And we did take action and it worked out.Michael: Okay, this time, okay, let's say what would happen to it if it didn't work out. Like it's like we send the Americans send these envoys being the Fantastic four who have no training in this type of activity of negotiating peace. Send 'em over and it backfires. And at least the, to this girls actually, redoubling their efforts to take over the earth. Well, and it's not just Americans pay the price of the entire, it'd be the entire Earth.Edward: Are we at, would we be at any worse place than we were?Michael: Yes,Edward: the scrolls were already ready to, these girls have already attempted at least two or three invasions that we know of. They're, they're coming after us. They're trying to take over our planet, and now they're.Michael: So I'm wondering yet if they're trying to invade us because Reed Richards ghost to their planet and kidnap their citizens . You know what I mean?Edward: Like this is the, this is the first time he's gone there. They, unprovoked, they came after us and they came after us again and again trying to take over our planet and now we've turned the tables on them. This is like Japan has attacked us in World War ii. And we turned the table and said, no, no, no, you can't take our Hawaii. We're gonna come after you and go to your islands. And that's what we did. And we did it well enough. And, and not only did we do it well enough, we did it with a small little Strikeforce team. We didn't have to blow up a scroll planet or even a scroll city. He went in and spoke with the emperor himself, herself, emperor somebody. He, negotiated with somebody over there and they've agreed to not attack us. .Michael: But Ed, if you bring in like the, world War II and America fighting Japan. Japan attacked America and America responded by. That was an act of war, which led to America actually fighting Japan, which is, yeah, I don't wanna sound too Pollyanna, but limited between those two countries. At least at the start of it, right before the countries actually can volun, can actually declare war on the other nation here effectively. The United States declared war on the scrolls and thereEdward: no declared war on the planet Earth and they and America stepped up and got them to say, No,Michael: no, but America has to go, has to go through the proper channels. They can't just decide something so significant about going to war with another nation without actually getting the rest of the world on board with it.Edward: Well, they're not, but they're not going to war with the other nation. The other. The nation declared war, not the nation, the emperor, the empire, the squirrel empire declared war. On earth, on all the countries on earth. Cause they don't care to them. We're all the same. We're all, we're all people, we're all humans. And so the US says Hey, no one else is taking care of this. No one else has the technology to take care of this. But this fantastic four working with nasa, developed the technology to go after the scroll home world. And they went straight there and they negotiated a piece so that the scrolls, wouldn. Anyone on Earth again, it wasn't like they negotiated a piece just with America. They could have done that, but why would that, that would be a terrible thing for them to do. They said, Hey scrolls, go ahead and invade our planet as long as you leave this continent alone.Michael: How would you have felt if Russia, which does have Superpowered individuals and does have, technology, what, how would you feel that they went to the scroll world and tried to do what the Fantastic four did and it back.Edward: Well be a, be a problem if we backfired. But it didn't back. If it didn't backfire. If the Russians went over there and negotiated the scrolls, I'd be like, given like a little swastika, high five, no, well, not swastika. What do they have? Would I be doing that hammered hammer sickle? I'd give a little sickle high five. There are enemies, but they, but they helped us. They would, and that's great. Sometimes the Russians and the Americans need to get together. Were on the same side to stop the squirrels from.Michael: But Ed, but so right now on our earth, we actually have international organizations that are designed to work cooperatively to actually achieve the goals of the group, right? We have the United Nations, which is the entire earth. We have nato, which actually is set up to to deal with the Warsaw Pack group of countries. And so there, it's not like one NATO country could decide to attack Russia without having. , quite frankly, the rest of the nations in NATO objecting to it. There's a system in place and I think the same thing should happen here when it comes to dealing with intergalactic relations.Edward: Well, maybe there was May.Michael: I don't understand why there isn't.Edward: May, maybe there maybe NASA and Fantasic Four talked to the rest of nato. I don't know. We don't know exactly what the channels they went through. I'm pretty sure they did not ch check in with the Soviets before they did it. But I think that's just the world we live in. We live in a in the, in reality, we don't wanna be sharing our subspace travel technology with the Russians for as long as we can anyway.Michael: But right now, the first question is there a clear and present danger presented by the scrolls to the planet Earth? And you're saying, well, because they've invaded before and they've been repelled. The answer is yes. Okay, fine. Assuming that's correct, then, is it that every country for itself can deal, can figure out how to deal with it and then how do they and I think the answer has to be no, it has to be that there's no,Edward: you're right, you're right.Michael: You're in a democratic, the democratic nations that are involved in military alliances that they wouldn't actually consult with us to figure out what the right plan is. I dealt the right plan. If I was in, involved in it would be, we're gonna send these, just these four people. If you're really truly deciding to invade this grow planet. You probably had a lot more than four people, butEdward: Well, they were trying to invade though, they were trying to create peace. They were, they were creating peace. They're not, they weren't, you're not gonna invade a planet with four people, but maybe traveling through subspace in these spaceships. We probably don't have the technology to send battalions. We don't have the technology to send warships and stuff with us. We have this technology to send four people, and so we sent the four people that we thought could handle it, and they did.Michael: Well, they didn't consult me and you and I aren't doing interview this. I'm offended on behalf of the rest of the earth, number one. But number two, I would say this, if they consulted with the Avengers, they could have had access to giant man's technology, shrunk them, everybody down, shrunk down, all like the ships and the planes and all the soldiers and stuff, and then gone there instead of letting Reed Richards go off in some kind of, Cowboy Justice Mission to, to grab the scroll that had killed Sue storm's, father, and then incidentally negotiate peace, which is I think, which is what I think happened. I'd rather have had an authorized military action by the world, or at least the majority of the world, it's something that, at at least smacks of democracy or democratic approach to these things because there's the consequences will be felt not just by America, but by the entire world. And then actually start thinking about using the technology that we know exists in a proper military application in a military way.Edward: I lo I love the idea of giant man shrinking down the US military into ants and sending the whole whole army over there. And hopefully growing them when they get to the other side. Otherwise, Having a bunch of ants fighting that this girls made have been a problem. But, I think it be hard, but the risk with that now is now you're risking a real war. Right? If we go and actually invade their planet with thousands and thousands or hundreds of thousands of soldiers, that risks escalating the war, and instead of escalating, we sent four people who they went in, they had a polite conversation with the emperor explained the miscommunication, explained that we were a people's too, and that we shouldn't be invaded. And if they did invade, we would hit back hard. And they were able to prevent intergalactic war.Michael: But that's my discomfort. They sent the fantastic floor who clearly had a bone to pick with the scrolls and were looking for a tray. They were trying to get them the person or the, the scroll that had killed, one of their fathers. I don't think that's how typical diplomacy works. It's not like we send over emissaries to like Russia. We don't send like the son or daughter of somebody who's killed by a bunch of Russian spies or soldiers. They might have a bit of too much skin in the game for that. They might not be objective when they're negotiating the peace treaty, I think would, I'd rather send somebody over that ha could be a little more objective and uh, and.Edward: Yeah, fair enough. Can negotiate properly. Sometimes you go to war with the army. You have not the army that you dream of, right? Like we had the Fantastic four who were able to go and do this. They had the technology to get over there. They had the diplomatic skills to do it. And did they have some conflicts of interest? Sure. . But, but, but, but they, they, they worked around those conflicts of interest and they saw, they saved the day. They saved the planet. They saved potentially the galaxy. They may have saved the universe, and I think we should give them some credit.Michael: Well. . Okay. Tell you what, let's just, at the risk of making this ad hominem, you sound like a typical business person saying, sure, there's some conflict of interest. is, did we, did we break the law? Did we do something that was totally in our own self-interest? Guilty is charged, and I'm saying as a lawyer, it's a conflict of interest. Hold on a second. That poisons the whole, in that the whole analytical approach, these things. So again, I work for businesses, I work for business people. I think they're all great. I don't wanna hurt my. Business structure, but come on, Eddie . This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Today begins Michael's 12-day podcast tsunami series called Blue Dots in a Red Sea: How to Win When You're Blue in a Red State. A special note from Michael: "You and I and millions of others in our Blue Tsunami this fall stopped the predicted red wave — and now what's left of the Republicans finds them in complete discombobulation. And the January 6th final report is every bit as damning as we thought it would be. Now it's time to take on the next job the pundits will proclaim we will have no chance at accomplishing: Start turning some red states and counties BLUE! I say it can be done — I've done it personally! — and there are so many examples of flipping red to blue in last month's midterms that we must keep this momentum going! In this podcast series between now and January 6th, I will show you practical strategies that will keep the Republicans off guard and unaware that we are in the process of pulling the literal rug right out from under them in the 2024 election. If you live in a red area — or have family or friends who do — you won't want to miss this blueprint I'm laying out for us to win and bring an end to most of the right wing madness. Please listen and share with others! No one will see this coming! More fun! More Blue! Thanks all and happy holidays!!" For more of Michael's work, subscribe to his Substack at michaelmoore.com ******************** Music in this episode: “Blue Christmas” — Elvis Presley ******************** Episode Underwriters: 1) Anchor.fm can help you start your own podcast. Go to anchor.fm to learn more. ******************** Write to Mike: mike@michaelmoore.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/rumble-with-michael-moore/message

Jonny Imerman was just pursuing a typical career in real estate sales when, at a bar one night, he was suddenly racked with severe pain. He got himself to the hospital where he learned he had testicular cancer. He underwent two years of surgery and chemo.   After cancer treatments, he felt he needed to do something outside the typical corporate world. He became the cofounder of Imerman Angels, a worldwide cancer support network to help people and families experiencing cancer. The organization, founded in 2005, now has over 13,000 cancer survivor volunteers who are ready and willing to help anyone who is experiencing cancer who contacts the organization.   Recently he formed a B Corp called Cloztalk. This company makes and sells items to support nonprofit organizations.   He will tell us about both organizations during this episode. Jonny is truly unstoppable, and he is working to help humanity deal with and survive cancer. This episode is quite informative and certainly, Jonny's message is important. I hope you find our talk relevant and perhaps it may help you or someone you know.     About the Guest: Jonny Imerman grew up in Metro Detroit and shortly after graduating from the University of Michigan, he was diagnosed with advanced cancer & had 2 years of chemo & surgeries.   Jonny co-founded ImermanAngels.org, a Chicago-based nonprofit that provides free one-on-one peer cancer support for thousands of cancer families each year in 115+ countries.   Jonny also co-founded B Corp CLOZTALK.com, an online store that sells cool, comfy logo-ed clothing like t-shirts, hats, and hoodies to promote your favorite nonprofit.   Jonny serves on the boards of Imerman Angels, Above & Beyond Family Recovery Center, Lorenzo's House, Pickles, Chicago Leadership Alliance, and REELabilities Film Festival.   Jonny lives in NYC.     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Hi, and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset where all sorts of things can happen. Because if you've read the tagline, you know that unstoppable mindset is where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, we get to deal with some of that today. I just learned something. Our guest is Jonny Imerman. And Jonny likes Blazing Saddles, and Young Frankenstein. And that's as good as it gets. So he's got to be a normal person, right? Jonny knows,   Jonny Imerman  01:46 well just try to be happy. But his Michael Hingson doing that I'm doing something right.   Michael Hingson  01:50 Johnny has started several nonprofits in his life, and has a story to tell that I think is second to none. And I'm really looking forward to learning more about you and the story and all the other things that that go into your life. So let's begin. So Johnny, welcome. And why don't you tell me a little bit about you. You're growing up your life history. And we'll go from there.   Michael Hingson  02:16 Awesome. Like, well, thank you so much for having me. Great to chat with you. You're such an easy guy to know, that's for sure. And thanks for all you do and accessing does to help people that have challenges and have disabilities. I mean, it's a it's a beautiful mission and just glad to be a small part of the piece of this. This mission. So quick background about me. You know, I'm from Detroit area. I originally went to University of Michigan College and then just a few years out of Ann Arbor was 26 of hanging out with three guys and girls were in a bar, shooting pool having fun, typical Saturday night, nothing out of the ordinary. And all of a sudden they had pain in my left testicle that was excruciating. It flipped on like a light switch one second. I'm fine. The next second I doubled over I couldn't even handle the pain and doubled over basically a 90 degree angle. And my friends offered to drive me to the hospital and a bullheaded. 26 year old male who's pretty foolish. I said, Oh, guys, I'll figure it out. Don't worry. I don't want to ruin your Saturday night. And I waddled out of the bar because I didn't even end up speaking the pain. And I got finally got in the car and drove myself to the hospital. And basically what happened was I had a doctor running his dance through his hair and saying, Listen, kid, I'm sorry, you're in your 20s. But you have advanced cancer. And it turned out it was testicular cancer, went right into surgery to remove the left testicle. And then after that had the bank sperm most of us are going to be sterile and can't have our own kids. And then the last step by the port surgically inserted into my arm for chemo. And then chemo was about eight hours a day, on average Monday through Friday, the first week of every cycle of chemo, and that kind of obviously stopped me in my tracks and, you know, kind of looked at life a little differently. And I quit my corporate job at the end of that, and a group of young survivors and I met randomly, really at the hospital at the end of it. And we all wanted to give back and we wanted to find purpose and meaning in this crazy experience. And we started a nonprofit 2005 called Imerman's angels, which is a free service where anyone fighting any type of cancer can meet someone who's already been through that same diagnosis and say Been there done that beat it. I know everything you want to know a walk you through the fight, what questions you have, and the whole mission is his peer mentor program. No one fights alone. There's a survivor to help every single one of them who's sick in the fight today. Any type of cancer anywhere in the world.   Michael Hingson  05:00 So one of the questions that immediately sort of comes to mind being a curious soul. Why did the pain literally just start, as you said, like turning on a light switch.   Michael Hingson  05:11 You know what they do happen, Michael I do now, testicular cancer is the second fastest growing cancer. And they think the tumor actually exploded a nerve, it was pushing through a nerve on the testicle, which caused pain. Now, the stats show that one in 10 people 10% of people have pain with testicular cancer. So I was that one out of 10. So nine others have no pain, and unfortunately, the nine that don't have pain, like if you were anything like me, there was no way you were going to a doctor just to go, that cancer would have kept spreading on my body into my brain and taking my life. But thank God for the pain because it forced me to go in, and it forced me to go have a doctor look at it. You want an ultrasound and make sure what's going on there. But that's what happened. It's a fast growing cancer, it burst a blood vessel and a nerve. And that's where the pain that's what caused the pain. Good question.   Michael Hingson  06:14 I have a friend. We haven't communicated for a while, but he was on the streets of Seattle talking to someone who he hadn't seen for a while. And this guy said, I just came from the doctor because I had to have a PSA test. And he said, My level was a little bit high. And they decided that maybe there's some prostate cancer, and they're gonna deal with it. He said, If you ever had a PSA test, and Jack was what in his 40s or more, he said, no, never had one. No, no need to do that. And his friend said, Yes, you do. Well, Jack went to the hospital or to the doctor's office and had a PSA test. His PSA level instead of being like noon or two was 27. And he was diagnosed with for Stage or Stage Four prostate cancer almost immediately. Never expected that never had any symptoms. He was very proactive in terms of dealing with it, studying and learning, alternative medicines and so on. The last time I checked, everything was in remission, which was really great. But still, you don't know. And there's value to those physicals and to doing tests.   Michael Hingson  07:33 They guy there, he got in there and found it when he did because one thing about cancer if they don't do anything, or you don't know, it just continues to grow. And it continues to get stronger, and it continues to be more difficult to be. So knowledge is power. And knowledge earlier is always better. And so wonderful. He went in and and yeah, you got to stop this stuff as early as you can. And you got to figure out what's going on your body.   Michael Hingson  07:59 Well, I have a brother who we lost to cancer. It started out literally as breast cancer in 2011. And they dealt with it, but then he wouldn't follow through and continue to monitor and a couple of years later it came back and by the time he dealt with it, it had metastasized, and we lost him in 2015, which is very sad. But yeah, it Yeah, he made his choices and I hate to sound cold, but it is really that it's a matter of choice.   Michael Hingson  08:30 Yeah, I'm so sorry to hear that it is you gotta go in you gotta get checked. You gotta know what's happening. Because people ask me this all the time. Like all they're like, well, didn't you feel a little bit of something before the pain. And I felt zero until the night and the bar when I felt the pain at that instant when the blood vessel burst or the nerve burst. And the cancer had already spread from my testicle, pelvis, abdomen, all my lymph nodes behind my kidneys, almost in my lungs, and I felt zero. So just like your friend with, you know, having advanced and high PSA, he didn't know either he didn't feel so you gotta go in regularly once a year on average, if it's cancers in your family, then you gotta go even more often, maybe once a year.   Michael Hingson  09:19 Well, I have not fortunately had cancer. I had a, I had a gallbladder situation in 2015 that suddenly I felt pain. And literally, it was a Thursday night and all of a sudden it started to hurt. And I went oh, this really is in the area where there might be a gallbladder. My father and my brother both had to have their gallbladders removed years ago. I didn't even think anything about it. But literally the pain as you said turned on. And so I went and when we dealt with it and the gallbladder was removed the next week with a totally different and amazing kind of surgery. He compared to what they went through where they had a big scar and all that this was all done through laparoscopy, and so on. And it was it was very, I won't say simple, no operation is simple, but it was very straightforward and was removed not much of any kind of scar or anything. And so that's fine. We move on.   Michael Hingson  10:18 Glad you got it out arrow, a really nice kitchen component. If your dad and your brother and you all have something with a gallbladder Thank God you were that's also knowledge, right? You knew from family that there was something with that organ and, and it comes to you and you jumped right on it. And analogy definitely.   Michael Hingson  10:39 Yeah, knowledge is absolutely power. And the other side of or the other part of it is knowledge and power. Lead to if you listen and think about it, they also lead to good choices. You can't deny it. None of us really should deny that kind of thing happening.   Michael Hingson  10:59 Yeah, yep. So that is the truth.   Michael Hingson  11:03 Well, tell me a little bit. So first of all, what were you doing corporate wise before you, you left your corporate job?   Michael Hingson  11:10 Oh, I used to work in commercial real estate and a horse you die every day. Very different world. 2627 28 through three, that's really when I made a lot of different decisions. And what I wanted out of life really hung up the student tie for good. And 28. You know, we launched merman angels are nonprofit. And then later, we started a B Corp that actually makes T shirts and ask for every casual group no more suits no more times I only once Mike. My goal was to wear it once a year or less, hopefully zero times.   Michael Hingson  11:51 I don't mind a suit and tie. And when I speak I wear a suit and tie and I don't mind. And if I had to go back to wearing a suit and tie because I was somewhere where it was more the the way of life. I could live with it. But I do enjoy mostly not having a suit and tie on and working from home, I'd love to tell people that it's really easy for me to get to work, I walk out one door the bedroom and walk into my other door, which is my office and there I am. And that's a lot of fun. But I think there's value in in being around people when you can and that's the operative part. It's like COVID, right? Everyone or so many people talk about zoom, tolerance and zoom. Not fear, but just fatigue and all that. And I'm sitting there going why is that such a big issue, given the alternatives? And again, it's choice.   Jonny Imerman  12:45 Yes, yes. You know if that's true, it definitely definitely is. Sorry, I lost it for one quick second. I put it on mute. I apologize for a little background, Alex here. That's what I can hear you.   Michael Hingson  12:59 So So tell me a little bit more about Emerman. Angels. And it is is it still around? What does it do? How long did you have it before you moved on to adding some other things and so on?   Jonny Imerman  13:13 Absolutely. So Michael Imerman. Angels, we started No, really, two or three, that was just a bunch of volunteer survivors. And oh, five and six, we became a full 501 C three nonprofit. I lived in Chicago for 15 years before New York. So it's still based. In Chicago, we have 13 full time people. And we manage this network that we've been very fortunate to recruit over 13,000 cancer survivors of all different types of brain cancer, lung cancer, bone, cancer arm and any type. And we manage the group. And we reach out to cancer centers and people all over the world who can find us and we'll pair you up with someone who had the exact same form of cancer, same age, same genders and cancers and everything. But yes, I'm an angel is going strong, fortunately. And we're helping 1000s of people a year. And the reason it works, Michael is the gratitude of the survivors they care. They want to help and want to give back they want to share their story, because they're giving up their time and their energy for no pay. And really nothing no, you know, publicity. They're doing this simply because they just want to give back and help other people.   Michael Hingson  14:33 So it is it is still running.   Jonny Imerman  14:37 Yes, it is still running. Fortunately, we hired a CEO. And the CEO actually runs our organization for us every day, but it's more of like a recruiter now and they'll do like some speeches for us and just anything on the outside. But the smart people are on the inside. So I just flipped people back to the inside and let our team really handle it but we've hired Have a really great team. And we have a wonderful CEO, who runs the organization. We're grateful we're the biggest group in the world of cancer survivors who are a community to mentor one on one. We're in over 115 countries that we can help people and have survivors in. So it is still going on. If anyone knows anyone touched by cancer, who is alone, somebody you care about, just send them the Imerman Angels that already and they can sign up online or team will reach out, we'll make sure that new survivors are trained, who want to give back and will help those that are sick, who want to reach a survivor like them. But yeah, it's up and running and has been since. Oh, 506, really, as a formal 501 C three nonprofit, we got a great board and a passionate group of very enthusiastic for the survivors. But no one should fight without knowing someone who has actually been through this stuff before.   Michael Hingson  15:55 And Imerman is spelled   Jonny Imerman  15:56 Imerman is spelled  I M E R M A N Angels. And I apologize, Michael and everybody for the difficult name. And I'm actually name this. We've just started meeting my survivor buddies. And I was in my late 20s, and I became buddies with all these young adults, survivors. And while giving back and mentoring, and my mom's like, your friends are like angels. They're so selfless, they want to give back now people on it, you call it Imerman angels, and we never thought we were gonna take it this far. And it just kept growing and the need was so strong. That's why it's called terminators, my mom named it otherwise would have picked something simpler, easier and harder, and kind of says what we do,   Michael Hingson  16:39 I don't think it's a difficult name at all. And it's a very accurate description of what you do. And I think that when you're dealing with an organization, and you're naming it, you should name it with something that's relevant. So Imerman angels is very apropos. So I'm glad that you're, you're calling it that, and congratulations, and God bless your mom.   Jonny Imerman  17:01 Thank you, like on YouTube, God bless you, man, and all the good work you're doing in the disability space. But we're really grateful as cancer survivors that we can do something to make a difference, you know, these stories really can help people.   Michael Hingson  17:14 So you are doing this all over the world with all types of cancer? And do you do you find from time to time that you get new either kinds of cancers, or although you have a lot of people new expertise that you didn't have before, as since it's a growing organization?   Jonny Imerman  17:34 Yeah, you know, it's a really good point you bring up we're always recruiting new survivors, because there's so many different types of cancer out there. And there's so many rare people that get a rare cancer out there. And they're super isolated. And there's always new treatments, you know, there might be a brand new treatment that wasn't here three years ago, but it is this year. So we have to have a survivor who's had that treatment. Because when some seconds to take that treatment, we need those out, he was actually a hatchery. And so we're always recruiting, we're always talking to people, we're always finding new people. And never stop that. It's a recruiting machine. Every survivor can be a part of it and help. So we're constantly looking for more and more people. We have 13,000 people, we could have 13 million plus people. But they're all great. And everyone matters. And it's such a good example, Michael, have the power is in the team, the powers and the community, right? And all of us are working together for one bit with one big community, then everyone's going to find a match. But we don't know is it going to be this person or that person today? We don't know. But if everyone's in the community, and everyone's registered, then we can   Michael Hingson  18:49 really help the most people. How do you match people? So somebody goes to Imerman angels.org. And they sign up and you said that somebody reaches out to them? What happens then   Jonny Imerman  19:03 what happens then is they sign up online, usually the easiest way or they can call us they can do that too. When people sign up online, the easiest way to do it, what we do is our team will call them or set up a zoom assure in a country far away. We set up a zoom, we chat with them we get to know them we what kind of cancer do you have? Where are your fears? What treatments are you going through? I think we learn about them. And then we really ask them that's really the kicker Michael is now who would be the best fit for you someone your age, someone that beat the same cancer. Someone is both someone your race someone your gender, you know, we ask people what would be the best fit for them. And then once we figure out what that is, then our team goes through this community this big community online finds the best part sent in our system to match them with and then we simply just make a very simple introduction, we say, you know, okay, Mike, you're going through colon cancer stage three, we know somebody that lives in Miami, and they beat stage three colon cancer, his name's Larry, you got to know Larry did it four years ago, and walk you through everything. But we use tech to manage the database to basically have a community and know where people are. But we make a very normal introduction, we talk to both sides, and then we send a join email to get everybody connected in the end.   Michael Hingson  20:35 And then what happens, then   Michael Hingson  20:37 the question is up to them how they want to engage, it's totally up to them how they want to, they want to talk and how they want to engage. So, you know, they may say, I, you know, they may say, I want to talk once a week, they may say, I just want to talk once in a while, they may want to email, they may want to zoom, it's actually completely up to them, how they want to interact. And we leave it very open, very open to them. Usually, the survivor is the one that makes the decision how they're going to talk and how they're going to connect. And it's all person. Yeah, kind of molded to the person that's looking for support.   Michael Hingson  21:25 But the whole point is, it is a support network. So it's not a medical thing where people give medical advice, although How do doctors get involved? And do Do people ever want to talk with doctors through the system? Does that happen? Or is it more peer? To peer support?   Michael Hingson  21:43 Yeah, no, we get a ton of referrals from the doctors, you're exactly right. The doctors, nurses, social workers, they're the ones that send people to us. So that's where they come from out of them. But you gotta make friends with the facts, you got to convince the doctor that we have researched everyone we've talked to everybody and we know, sort of are you really know are people we know, questions that they asked. And so it's, it's really, it's a very, it's gotta be vetted, there's got to be training, we got to know all our people. That's really important. Because if you don't have the buy in from the doctors, and you don't trust, that these people who are sick are going to be able to, you know, have a good experience, and we're not going to give them medical advice, we're just going to be friends and supporters and arm them with questions, then you're not going to get the bind the doctor learn that, you know, in the early days, you know, we can't give medical advice, we coach that. Gotta make sure that our that our mentors, you know, our friends, sharing a lot, their story, they're supportive, they're loving, the caring, they, they they relate, they tell stories, they they blaze the road, that they don't tell people what to do with always go to the doctor in terms of what treatment to take to very important that you're going up. Because we're not doctors, we can't coach them what they should take.   Michael Hingson  23:12 Do Doc's ever volunteer and become a part of the organization in that way.   Michael Hingson  23:17 We're definitely we've had many doctors volunteer, we've also have Michael, we've got a group. It's a board, really, it's a medical advisory board of doctors, nurses, social workers, and they're incredible. They're all over the country, they help. They help us build our training manual, they help a lot of ways. But no doubt about it. You got to have the doctors on your team, you got to learn from them. You got to figure out from them, you know what's important, and how to make this thing work best. But you got to partner with the hospitals and the doctors for sure.   Michael Hingson  23:51 How large is the staff   Michael Hingson  23:54 13 We have 13 full time people, our budgets about $1.5 million a year. So we're, you know, small, medium sized nonprofit. But it's big enough to be able to manage the network so far. But of course, one day, you know, we want to have more people or we could, you know, be able to help more people because we have to pay people full time who answered the calls, who reach out who do the trainings, that's a big part of our costs are biggest part of our classes are people.   Michael Hingson  24:26 Yeah. And the the database and so on, obviously is a cost but it's it's sensible. And it makes perfect sense that people are the the largest part of of the cost that you have to undertake and you got to pay people because people need to to have support financial support to to be involved in this in one way or another as staff members.   Michael Hingson  24:50 That's exactly right. I mean, we pay people full time because they're going to be on the phones all day, and they're going to be helping people comforting people introducing them to other survivors. training new survivors managing the database. Exactly. So it's, it's not rocket scientists on this one on the program. But I will say there's a lot of moving parts. And sometimes somebody has a recurrence that we have to know that if they're registered survivor on our system, and then we want to reach out to them again to the mentor, but last week at occurrence and cancers back leg, you got to check in first before him before you hook them up together, there's a lot of moving parts. And you got to talk to people to learn who they really want to connect to, that can be tricky, too,   Michael Hingson  25:39 are the paid staff members, cancer survivors, so necessarily, some   Jonny Imerman  25:44 of them are now we do have some, it used to be all of them in the beginning, they were all survivors. And then sort of as we've grown, we have family members and caregivers. It's sort of a mix of a bunch of different people. We definitely do have some survivors on board. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  26:03 But then you've got 13,000 volunteers, which as you said, is also part of the moving parts of of what you do.   Jonny Imerman  26:10 Zack, managing them go keeping in touch with them and keeping them engaged when they're not monitoring. That that is also a challenge that we have not solved. We do our best at keeping in touch with the people. But it's tricky, because a lot of people in the system,   Michael Hingson  26:27 how did COVID affect what Imerman angels is doing?   Jonny Imerman  26:33 So COVID has been good, from some ways, I feel for all the families have gone through COVID. It's been a crazy couple of years. But it's taught us that we can really work remotely. And our team right now is hybrid, there's a few going into the office in Chicago, but a lot of them are just staying home. So it's really taught us that we can work really well together without working together every single day. So it hasn't slowed us down. The part. That's the craziest Michael is that fewer people have reached out during kirpan than they did pre COVID. And we think the real answer to that reason to that is because they, they simply, you know, they simply had their families and they have people around them. So they were able to have more support. So I think they called us a little less often than they did before. And that was a little tricky. We were just surprised, we thought we were gonna get a ton of calls during COVID. But a lot of people were with their families in their pod. And maybe they felt like they had more support. So they just simply didn't call us as often. But that's all coming back now. And I think numbers are going to come back up to where they were before.   Michael Hingson  27:52 Yeah, because in some senses, at least, with the immunity or with the extra strength that vaccinations offer. More and more people feel comfortable about going out a little bit   Michael Hingson  28:06 more. Exactly, exactly. That's for sure. And things like cancer, you know, you do have an immune deficiency. That's right. I mean, you got to be really careful if you have cancer, and you're on chemo and your white blood cell counts down. And then now you get something like COVID I mean, it can much more easily kill people. It's it's a tricky combination those things together.   Michael Hingson  28:30 Yeah, it does make it a challenge. But you have a great passion for this. And you've allowed your passion to help you move forward and form Emerman angels and that's good, because it's a need that needs to be filled. But you've moved on and you've also formed another organization. Tell us some about that, if   Michael Hingson  28:52 you would. Yeah, we have to so we got excited Michael about spreading the word for Imerman Angels because the more we got the word out, the more survivors out there found us join the network, and started helping people. And we came up with this idea that nonprofits really make cheap $2 bright green T shirts with way too much stuff on it that Nobody wears this stuff. And we're like we're gonna make cool shirts that people actually rack in the city and talk about us and wear to the gym. And we learn if we did white on black super simple. Just the logo enough to spark curiosity and spark a question on a really high quality t shirt that we could make it make it make it a brand's make you something you want to wear, and it's got to fit you well. And so we started making Imerman Angels one black shirts, that our friends are rocking at the gym or a sports game or walking their dog in the city. And lo and behold these conversations sparked in the word out and it brought us everybody we needed including donor Are people that use the program, people that volunteer, and we started a B Corp with a company called closed box Clos, the talk at COC talk.com is our website. And basically what it is, it is a one site where anyone can go. And you can learn and search about all these hundreds of nonprofits that are out there, watch the video, learn the mission inspired, find something new to you. But then at the same time, you can shop right there on the site, right when you like some things that I want to buy there, or I want to buy their teacher, I want to buy a hoodie, it's right there. And we make them on demand. And we dropship them right to you about four and a half days or average order to arrive at your door. Everything we make very high quality, and looks cool. It's all white on black or white and gray. And we want to inspire people to rock the logo of good causes, rather than wearing a Nike swoosh or an Under Armour symbol, or Dallas Cowboys. And that's okay, if you want to rock that. But you could be great. And you could rock a cause that actually helps people. And that actually, you know, gets movements out there. And it's a question that people are going to ask when they see in that shirt. And you can say, this is my favorite cause. And this is why and here's what they do. Because maybe someone who needs that program is going to hear about it because somebody else knows about it. It's all about awareness, awareness through apparel.   Michael Hingson  31:29 Well, to start the corporation, you obviously had to start learning and developing a knowledge about it, which says a lot about you that you want to continue to learn and evolve. So, Mr. Expert, what is a V Corp?   Jonny Imerman  31:46 Well, I'm I don't know x my expertise. But I will tell you, I've learned a lot. So a B Corp is the highest level certification that your company it is a business for your for profit company is a movement for social good. If the highest level of ethics in the highest level of sustainability, and social impact of anything out there, there's 1500 B corpse in the US and about 3500 outside the US about 5000 total. And it's really a movement of more sustainable ethical businesses who care. So we don't make apparel and run Shopify stores and sell stuff for companies or sports teams or anyone else. It's all nonprofits, its movements and causes that truly make the world better. Our packaging is 100%, recyclable, things like that, you know, we need to prove to become a B Corp that we care about the planet, we care about people, plants, pets, everything, you know, we care about all these causes, we are in the mission of solving a social problem. But we still want it like a business. That's why it's a B Corp, not a nonprofit.   Michael Hingson  32:59 So it is actually in some senses. And I don't mean this in a negative way. But it is a profit making company because it has have to support itself.   Jonny Imerman  33:08 That is 100% true, you know, we're not even profitable yet. So technically, I wouldn't even call me it is a for profit, technically. But it's not for profit for anyone yet, because we're still trying to cover our costs. And we're in year four and a half. But we've doubled sales between one year one and year two, and year two and year three, and then a percent we increase between three and four. So we're hoping this year to be able to cover our costs Michael, and then we can make a profit business where right we can live on it and be sustainable. Right now. We're living on savings that can last forever. So we're excited to make this sustainable and get to do what we love, and drive this mission home that we love. And then once we're profitable, in addition to the branding for the causes and getting their logos on more bodies 20% of our profits, we donate to our causes. So we're also going to help fund them when we get there   Michael Hingson  34:08 are the causes all cancer related?   Jonny Imerman  34:11 They're all over the board. So it could be helping people with disabilities. We have a group in Chicago called dare to try or anyone who's lost a limb. They teach you how to do tries, any sort of physical disability show, literally triathlons. We have groups that help animals. We have groups like Feeding America, which probably everybody knows the second biggest one in the country. Solving food insecurity could be anything helping the homeless and anywhere in the United States.   Michael Hingson  34:45 So they're they're keeping you busy. How how big guard our sales are is the cost right now how big is the corporation?   Jonny Imerman  34:53 So we are most we have over 400 nonprofits, and the most that we've seen sold in a year, which we're on pace probably this year to do about 200, for Feeding America 200 items. And the number, that's number one and number two, and number three are probably around 180 150 items for the year. So and then some of the causes will only sell maybe five years or so something like that much lower. So it's still lower than we want. But we knew that going in, you know, we have to be creative to drive people to our site, to allow them learn about vetted trustworthy, great causes, but then also take the next step to buy. But our big idea to really get this thing going and help more classes. And better is we are getting companies to allow group buy for their employees, and they buy one item for employee, and then every employee gets to pick their favorite nonprofit from our list. And then Geez, that work now becomes jeans day for purpose, because you're wearing a t shirt or a hat for your favorite cause in addition to jeans. And now it's something you know, bigger than just jeans day. Right? And so we're gonna get many, many more companies who are going to invest in this invest in their people and their causes. And it sparks conversations in the office about what's your favorite cause? Why?   Michael Hingson  36:18 How does class talk? And or how do class talk and Imerman angels kind of interrelate to each other.   Jonny Imerman  36:26 So Imerman angels is on closed dock. It's one of our nonprofits that on close talks. So we have 400 plus, and any nonprofit you gotta be a 501. C, you you basically get a page on closed Doc site. So when you go to closed Doc site, you can search and find all these nonprofits, but incriminated was one of them. It's one that they do sell on our site.   Michael Hingson  36:53 But they're separate organizations totally separate.   Michael Hingson  36:56 Ones a 501 C, three Imerman Angels, closed dock as a B Corp totally separate books. Solely separate things. That's true.   Michael Hingson  37:06 How do nonprofits learn about close talk?   Michael Hingson  37:10 So we reach out to a lot of them. We know quite a few because we've been in the space for almost 20 years. But at this point we have the one people that we do now are already with us pretty much. And we reach out we're constantly asking our friends, you know, tell us about great missions, who should we be helping? Should we partner with? So we use social media, word of mouth LinkedIn, we find some break as friends just reading an article and you're reading about a great new cause. Like that's one way one on our site. We can help make T shirts cooler so we do a lot We pound pavement we hustle that's for sure Miko Well, one   Michael Hingson  37:52 thought I have if you haven't connected and I obviously haven't looked yet at clothes talk.com but would be the National Federation of the Blind, which is the largest consumer organization of blind people might be something worth looking at.   Michael Hingson  38:04 We would love to work with that organization. We don't yet. And I think we reached out to them, but we didn't know anyone there. So we haven't connected with them yet. But that's a wonderful organization and needs to grow and want to make their tissues as cool as possible. And that's the goal. We help them all. And again, I want to underscore it's free for the nonprofits. They don't have to build a tech, they don't have to stack the inventory. They don't have to drive the traffic even you know, it's all on us and find ways creatively to drive traffic to our site so people can learn about these causes do it. So that way the nonprofit if they want to promote it to their own people, they can, but it's never required. They can focus on their service and the mission. That's the most important thing for them.   Michael Hingson  38:54 Well, being a prejudiced kind of guy. I'm more of a polo shirt guy than a t shirt guy. Our polo shirts available.   Jonny Imerman  39:01 We do my Kobe. Oh good. Yeah, polos, so we've got polos.   Michael Hingson  39:06 I like polos with pockets   Jonny Imerman  39:09 there we go, we do and we're if there's no there's not a pocket but we looked at other bolos add a couple of different styles because what we have now is like a polo more of a golf shirt. Doing some that are all cotton, that are might have a pocket on the ones we're looking at. But we're always adding new items. You know the store is the same store 16 items right now for all of our causes, but we're always adding new ones on there so we appreciate your   Jonny Imerman  39:39 feedback we take all that helps helps us get better we just want to give them what they're gonna wear.   Michael Hingson  39:44 That's right in front of right in front of everyone, you know polos with pockets, but that's my prejudice. I just like those shirts. I like pockets on shirts. So yeah, that's for sure. That's that's me. But you you continue to really evolved these corporations and I would be interested to hear where you see both Emerman angels and close tech in over 10 years.   Jonny Imerman  40:12 No Imerman angels, we'd love to see hundreds of 1000s Maybe millions of survivors in one big community giving back. And people that would be beautiful to see that happening in increasing the community, helping you know, hundreds of 1000s or millions of people one day, and in 10 years clothes, we love to be able to walk out the streets in New York, LA, San Francisco, Seattle, you name it. And like two out of five people a rock and a hat, or a t shirt or polo, for a cause that they love. And we want to make it mainstream, you feel good about yourself, you feel like you're volunteering just by being you know why wear a plain white shirt or a plain black shirt, when you could be great, you could be rocking something that matters. That's our main vision that we see as this is going to be mainstreamed for people to wear.   Michael Hingson  41:10 So how big is the clothes tech staff,   Jonny Imerman  41:12 very small, my brother, myself, my brother's my best friend, it's him and me. And we have a third minority partners. We haven't even hired anyone yet. And we're just grinding it out little by little, but we are going to hire hopefully sooner than later, you know, when we get some profit. And we're able to afford that we'd love to be able to hire more people to help.   Michael Hingson  41:35 Well, and you and your brother work well together. And that's always a good thing we do   Jonny Imerman  41:39 we get along great, you know, occasionally a little bit of heat in the kitchen, but that's part of it, you know, like any relationship. But overall, we see things very similarly, we both have the same goals. The trust is always there. And he's my best friend. So very lucky for that.   Michael Hingson  41:57 Have you had any other incidents of cancer, or just the testicular cancer,   Michael Hingson  42:02 testicular cancer. But after I finished all my chemos Michael, I was clear. And then about a year later at a checkup, CAT scan that found for tumors by my kidneys, sort of by my spine, really, and in front of the spine, I guess I should say. And behind the kidneys, they were in a weird spot. So we had to go in through one more vertical incision, one more big surgery through my abdomen is 11 inches long from the sternum down to the pubic bone. And I had to move my organs out of the way, like pick them up with their hands and move them and get to the tumors, cut them out, put the organs back in, stitch the stomach muscle, and then 60 staples up and down vertically. So that was my last bout. 2003 is when it all ended. But yeah, it was. It was a journey. I mean, there's no doubt about it. I mean, cancer can come back. One thing I believe is when you're helping other people and you're focusing on your mentees, you sort of release fear of a comeback. And you don't think about it as much you don't as scared of it anymore. Because you're so focused on helping somebody that's really sick right now, and doesn't know if they're going to make it.   Michael Hingson  43:18 Yeah, he's your brother had any experience with cancer? Personally, no,   Michael Hingson  43:22 no, you know, just as being a caregiver to me and my mom. But now fortunately, both of them are okay. Never had a problem that got they're totally safe. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  43:34 Which is, which doesn't mean at all that he isn't empathetic and understanding clearly he is because the two of you work together and you enjoy each other's company. And that's always a relevant part to the process.   Michael Hingson  43:47 That is that definitely is it takes a team, it takes a village to get through this stuff. It's not easy, but you get through it. But I think a lot of us feel like myself, if you're going to go through cancer go through young, and you have more of your life afterwards, to live more enlightened more. With a focus more with purpose, you want to make a difference. You want to be kind, you want to really look away at the end of life and say how many people that I positively affect in my life. And I think a lot of us as cancer survivors, especially the ones, that's how we think are their impact. What footprint Are we leaving?   Michael Hingson  44:28 Are there any kinds of cancers that even when you diagnose them early? aren't things that you can stop or kids can pretty much you say, universally, that if you catch it early, you can stop it and live a meaningful and long life?   Jonny Imerman  44:44 Yeah, that's almost all cancers. If you catch it early, you can get it out from the roots. And that's the goal is to get it out from the roots. So if you catch it early, that's the key. Now there are some that are just dead. recall it starts in the brain, it's just difficult based on the tissue around it. But if you still get it early, and it's smaller, it might be a minor surgery or a little radiation. And you're able to save so much of the brain or all the brain and save someone's life. But early detection is key. Being aware of your body going in, if you feel something, those are all really, really important things.   Michael Hingson  45:24 I think we've kind of covered it, but still, what do you advise everyone to do regarding cancer?   Michael Hingson  45:33 i Yes, we did talk about it. But go in, get checked once a year. If it's in your family get checked more than once a year. Educate people get your friends to go in, like getting checked. And making sure things are clear is the best way to save your life.   Michael Hingson  45:52 I will say from experience I do go in I guess it's now every 10 years to do colonoscopies and people say how horrible they are? Well, the prep is, is a whole lot worse than the colonoscopy because you tend to sleep through it. But yeah, it is it is such a necessary thing to do. And then every year we do colorguard tests, my doctor has prescribed those and I gather that's a pretty successful and meaningful way to to potentially see a lot of cancers that might happen or rule out the fact that you have any.   Jonny Imerman  46:29 Yes, yes, I mean, knowledge is power. I'm glad you're on headlight color, you're in the know, and you're educated. I mean, the more you educate yourself on this stuff, that is truly how we save lives.   Michael Hingson  46:45 Yeah, that's what we have to do. In order to make sure that we we take no chances with all of this, which is really important. That's right. So it's, it's really exciting that you and your mission exists in are helping so many people. I don't remember whether you said the number, but how many people do you think you serve in the course of a year as people who come to you and say I have this cancer or I'm concerned about the cancer that I might have. And so it's   Michael Hingson  47:20 1000s of families reach out to us every year, it's somewhere in the ballpark of 3500 to 4000. families a year on average will find us and reach out. And we probably pick up about 1000 new survivors every year. And family members, I do want to mention, you know, we do help the family members, like let's say it's someone who loses their spouse to cancer, and they're only 30 years old, and they have a small child, you know, we can introduce that person to another person who says I'm 35. And when I was 30, I also lost my spouse to cancer. And I have a small child. And here's how I got through it. Nobody should go through this alone where the caregiver, the caregiver, or the person that's in the fight to a survivor.   Michael Hingson  48:08 So with all that you're doing, do most survivors that connect with you then become volunteers for the organization and are available or is out of 13,000 people or the people who have stayed with you.   Jonny Imerman  48:24 Yes, I mean, the large, large majority of people who we help and hook them up with a mentor, they're going to beat it. And then they're going to say I want to mentor It's my turn now to give back in as a beautiful thing. You know, they care, they they're grateful. They want to help the next person there really is, is it's like an engine that that kind of feeds on itself. And it   Michael Hingson  48:49 doesn't really get any better than that, because you've got so many people who want to give back and, and do it. And, you know, I would say the whole thing a little bit differently than you. I would hope that we find some cures for some of this cancer at some point in the near future. So that the number of volunteers you have to have and the number of people who are involved gets to go down because cancer is less, but we're not there yet.   Jonny Imerman  49:14 Yep. Yeah, that's exactly right. We are not there yet. You know, if you look at stats, every year, Michael, the survival rate goes up 1%. So 40 years ago, it was about a 30 35% survival rate of cancer full years later today. It's about in the 70s. It's about 74 75% of people who can repeat it every year. So research and all the good work that they're doing in the lab, and all the new treatments. It's about that increases survival rates 1%. So eventually we are going to get there.   Michael Hingson  49:54 How much of the increase in survival rate comes from just the medical treatments as opposed was to catching it early.   Jonny Imerman  50:03 That's a good question. I don't know that exactly. I do know this that did you get it early, you're way, way, way ahead of beating it. That is for sure. I don't know exactly though. I mean, a lot of it, of course has to do with new treatments I know with for my cancer, testicular cancer, it was in the 70s. And before, 90 plus percent of people died with this cancer. And in the late 70s, early 80s, a dyadic, dn hospital, Larry einhorn invented, created this chemo. And it really flipped the numbers. Now, it's gotta be something like 80 90% of guys, which is the direct answer, do beat it. Again, you gotta get it early. But overall, 80 to 90%   Michael Hingson  50:58 of them will beat it. Which, which is, is pretty important and relevant to be able to address but it's still, it's an it's a complex solution. It's not just oh, you can go get medical treatment, it is being aware, catching it early. And then dealing with it and not allowing yourself to go into denial. 100%,   Jonny Imerman  51:21 catching it early, not going into denial. Being afraid to go to the hospital is a dangerous thing. We always say as survivors that doctors not going to give you cancer, you're not going to give it to you either have it or you don't. So you might as well figure it out now and find out. You got to know but you're not going to get it you're not going to catch it from going to a cancer one of the doctor,   Michael Hingson  51:42 that's a good thing. That's a good thing. That's a really good thing. Is cancer mostly genetic? Or why do people get it? Is it just most   Michael Hingson  51:53 researchers, Michael that I know and I know quite a few over the years, because they all send us patients but they say a 5% genetic, much smaller than most people think 95% of what we do socio environmental. And if you take that 95% and make that one whole pie. Two thirds of that is one thing, which is diet. And most The researchers say that it's just not known enough. But what we eat makes it very a lot of logic, very logical to a lot of people is going to filter into our bloodstream and become our bodies. So it got to eat as healthy as it can and as clean as you can. It's Whole Foods free from pesticides and chemicals. There's no doubt about it. That's the number one overall factor in something like cancer.   Michael Hingson  52:47 So what are good diets?   Jonny Imerman  52:49 You know, I don't want to impose my views because this is their own but I will say after everyone I've met and all the researchers I know most residual I know they are vegans, I've been vegan myself for 1415 years. I rice beans, vegetables, now it's through and I don't do any and there's no doubt about that. Like there's there's a lot of research especially with colon cancer and colon stuff that that is just lesser lesser chance of developing cancer especially colon but you know again, that's my personal views if somebody likes a good burger if they immediately are happy to eat a steak I get it or chicken or fish whatever it is you I would just save this if you love it just try to do it in moderation and do it or anything every day with meat.   Michael Hingson  53:48 But is it the meat or is it the additives and the pesticides or the the other things that is put into the meat that's really the issue?   Michael Hingson  53:57 I personally think and again, I'm not an expert but everything that I heard it's a little bit of both the animal protein but it's mostly the additives and it's what happens to these animals antibiotics that are pumped with and and things because it becomes a business and the bigger the animals the more the more you know meat there is to sell and unfortunately that's how it is a lot of stuff pumped in and antibiotics or growth hormones or whatever to make the animals bigger and we can plants you got to be a little careful still with Indian pesticides and so forth.   Michael Hingson  54:37 But certainly the issue is ultimately eat higher quality food look for the the food whether it's meat or not, then doesn't use a lot of pesticides and so on. And that isn't guaranteeing that you won't contract but your chances go up of remaining more healthy.   Jonny Imerman  54:58 Yes, yeah. us absolutely your chances go up. And if you're not sure middle of the road in, if someone's eating steak every day, three meals a day, I don't think that's a great idea personally, for me, yeah. But you're middle of the road when in doubt. And you just try to lean I think on a war budget, vegetable diet and as Whole Foods and as organic as   Michael Hingson  55:24 I know, my wife, Karen and I tend to, if we have meat, and we do some, but it's it dinner, and we portion control it. And we are eating pretty high quality stuff, as opposed to just going buying the best price at the store and things like that. But we, we for lunch, we usually eat not some cheese and fruit. And for breakfast, it's high end oatmeal or a bagel. And with a little bit of butter on it. And so there there are things that possibly could be improved. But by the same token, we're monitoring it pretty closely. And again, we go in for all the physicals and so on, that I think we're very concerned about heart healthy carry has had some family members with it. And of course, I mentioned my brother and other things like that. So we're, we're sensitive to it. And I think everyone should be sensitive to it.   Jonny Imerman  56:19 I totally agree. I mean, what's more important than your health? If you're not healthy? How can you help anybody else? Or take care of your kids or your family? You got it, you should be smart about it. No doubt?   56:31 Well, I think it makes perfect sense all the way around. I can't leave without talking about how we met, which was on a webinar with accessiBe, which was a lot of fun. In is it Imerman angels that uses accessiBE?   56:45 We do. We're very grateful. So close talk has it too close, or too great. Yeah, so close together, too. And thank you, Michael, for all you do for accessibe in the accessibe team, they've just become friends. And I love the mission of an all accessible internet for as many people as we can for 2025 I just think it's such a positive mission company. And it's really a B Corp minded company, and rootin for you guys always so love, which you do   57:17 well, and we're having a lot of fun doing it, educating people. And there's a lot to learn about the internet. And we're learning a lot about how to communicate, as well. But we do appreciate people like you who are out there who are using it, and telling the world that again, it's all about some social consciousness. And what happens with accessibe accessibe is a very conscious company regarding the world SSB also makes itself available free of charge for nonprofits, which is really kind of cool.   Michael Hingson  57:49 Really, really cool. I mean, for any nonprofit in the disability space, I know they're totally free. And so we told a lot of our disability nonprofits about accessibe and they signed up and now they have an accessible website, especially because there's been people with disabilities. So yeah, yeah, really good stuff there.   Michael Hingson  58:11 And whatever doesn't work with the access or automated widget, excessively is there to help make the rest of it accessible to which is part of the social conscious of consciousness of the organization?   Jonny Imerman  58:24 Yeah, really is. It's, it's a great group, and they're passionate in there. They're fired up. And it's a mission that matters. So what a great company to get behind.   Michael Hingson  58:35 And we got to meet you. Yeah, I   Jonny Imerman  58:36 got to meet you. Like your story is great. And I enjoyed watching you and your video and learning. I think it was the Monterey speech you gave it was funny, as well done and, and informative and your store and you have escaped the building. And I learned a lot from you. So thank you for that.   Michael Hingson  58:55 Well, thank you. It's was fun to do the speech in 2019. And be able to continue to move forward. And we're having a lot of fun with accessibility. And as I said, getting to me, you and having a lot of fun doing this podcast. And we we really love social minded people who are on missions, especially because they make sense. And it could be that you've got a single minded mission, that's okay. Or you go off in many directions. That's okay, as long as you do it, and you recognize you're doing it for the right reasons. And that's what matters.   Jonny Imerman  59:29 Yeah, that's it. If we all live that way, and try to help others and be kind and affect people in a positive way. It's all it's a win for everybody. Everybody wins together. Everybody benefits.   Michael Hingson  59:42 Should people be afraid of cancer, and I'm delivered and asking about fear.   Michael Hingson  59:47 No, I don't think we want to live afraid of it. I think we need to think preventatively though, you don't want to be reactive. You don't want to deal with cancer like I had once I had it I was like Okay, and what do I need to do to Get rid of it. You want to think preventatively exercise workout, lower your stress, sleep enough, eat a healthy diet, don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't do anything to the body that's toxic. Those are the ways I think we live. And then you just after that you can't really fear it. Because if you're doing all those things are most of the things that got to live your life and freedom, I think and try to enjoy it and not worry about it. Because life is truly enjoying the moment.   Michael Hingson  1:00:30 And I think that's really important that we we've got to start fearing less, we've got to stop being so afraid. But be more strategic, analyze, be more people who look at what goes on during the day by taking some self analysis time at the end of the day. And not being afraid of so many things. Because fear, as I like to say blinds you. And when that happens, you don't think St.   Michael Hingson  1:01:01 Lily agree, you know, fear is kind of the opposite of joy in a lot of ways. If you want to be happy, and you want to be in peace you can, you got to find ways to let it go. I told the agreement in fear to a lot of nasty things to people, it's just it's not another great emotion. So we the survivors have put a lot of time and reducing our fear of our cancer coming back. And to us the number one way to do that is giving back helping other people because you're not focused on your own self and your own fear, because you're helping somebody else who's sick right now. So through mentoring to giving back through taking the spotlight off yourself and other people. That's how you reduce your fear in the same way with something like AAA Alcoholics Anonymous sponsors will help the next person and it gets the mind off themselves of going back into drinking because you have a mentee that you got to help. You're responsible for somebody else, you know, that's how he he reduced the fear and you stay on a better path.   Michael Hingson  1:02:04 Well, Jonny imerman I really want to thank you for being on unstoppable podcast and how can people reach out to you you've talked about it some but good to summarize it again. How can they maybe talk with you personally or reach out and learn all they need to learn   Jonny Imerman  1:02:18 as little Michael You are a pleasure brother it's great chat with you again and Imerman angels if you know anybody with cancer, it's I M E R M A N  angels that o r g if you forget that you just type in one on one cancer support and mentoring or something like that and we should pop up right away. And with clothes talk@coztak.com clothes talk.com Like your clothes are talking for a good cause sparking conversation in the word during go to the web site and learn about Craig pauses are out there to rock their logos   Michael Hingson  1:02:55 will super will thank you again for being with us. And you out there listening wherever you are. We really appreciate you and would love to get your comments and feedback about this and unstoppable mindset in general, you are welcome to give us and we appreciate you giving us a five star review wherever you're listening to the podcast. But also, you can email me directly at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E .com. Or go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And hingson is spelled H i n g s o n. And if you know someone else who you think ought to be on unstoppable mindset, love to get those suggestions. We really appreciate hearing from all of you about who you think ought to be on the podcast. Some people we'd love to have on the podcast. We haven't been able to reach him yet. But it'd be fun to have Anthony Fauci on the podcast, don't you think Jonny that'd be kind of Oh, that would be awesome. That would be kind of fun. But in general, we really appreciate any suggestions that you all have. And I can I can come up with a whole bunch of names of people we'd like to have, but we really appreciate any assistance and support any of you can bring to bear and in finding guests for us. We're grateful to do that. So thank you again for listening. And Jonny one last time. Thank you for being a guest on unstoppable mindset. Michael, thanks and stay well, buddy. Keep up the good stuff. Great to see you. Thanks for having me.   Michael Hingson  1:04:35 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michae

In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss whether the Fantastic Four or the Beatles are more famous. The Thing and the Human Torch were recently at a Beatles show and did some damage while capturing thieves who targeted the cashboxes. Who should pay for that damage? Should good samaritans like the Fantastic Four be held responsible? If they are, what type of disincentive does that create for other superheroes to help others? Are there more superpowered people out there who are keeping their abilities secret because they can't afford the insurance?Behind the issue:The Beatles are first mentioned in the Marvel Universe in Fantastic Four #34 (two months prior to this issue's release), but this is the first appearance of the actual band. The Beatles' first comic book appearance was a few months earlier in July 1964 when Dell Giant released a special issue focused on the fabulous foursome. A few days after the Dell book hit the stands, an Archie title also mentioned the Beatles (Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica #105) and the girls shopped for wigs, but the actual musicians did not appear. Perhaps the very first appearance was in the aforementioned Archie series #104, which teased the following issue and had a page of text explaining who the Beatles were (see below). The Beatles are mentioned in Marvel Comics a number of times through the years, but, as far as we are aware, they do not appear again until 2007, when it is revealed that the band had been kidnapped years ago and had been replaced by Skrulls (who were responsible for the majority of their music in the Marvel Universe).In this issue:The Thing and the Human Torch are getting under each others' skin, and likely need a break from each other. No such luck, as their girlfriends convince them to go see the breakout sensation from Britain, the Beatles. The foursome head to the show, but before it begins, they learn that the venue's payroll has been stolen. The Thing and the Torch head out and capture the criminals, but unfortunately miss the entire show.Assumed before the next episode:People are more interested in being entertained by the Beatles than being saved by the Fantastic Four, or so we assumeThis episode takes place:After the Beatles have started their British Invasion!Full transcript:Edward: Mike, who is more popular? The Beatles or the Fantastic Four ?Michael: I think if you listen to our show regularly, you would assume the Fantastic Four. But if you lived in the real world you'd probably say The Beatles people meaning it for a reason, right?Edward: Fantastic Four have clubs, fan clubs, but there's no fantastic mania. How even the four mania how would you even say that?Michael: Yeah, I don't know ff mania, but like, you know, there's, I thinkEdward: we don't swear on the show, Mike. No swearing on the show.Michael: Yeah, . Well, they're certainly popular. They're incredibly popular and they're being followed and there's celebrity magazines that report on them, but, Nothing like the Beatles. Nothing like The Beatles has happened in a superhero superpowered world. Yeah.Edward: And in this particular case, we had the Fantastic Four went to go and see a Beatles show and we've had no incidences, we know about where the Beatles have gone to see a Fantastic four show.Michael: No, they're not showing up the Baxter Building, you know, pen and paper hand asking for autographs. Although, funny about it is maybe it's just a comment on human nature or our society, but like the Fantastic Floor have saved the world more than once.Edward: And Beatles, the Beatles have not, Beatles have never saved the world.Michael: So you think, you'd think that if there's gonna be this adulation, idolatry, of anyone, it would be the fantastic for, but no, it definitely isn't. It definitely is not. The Beatles are far more popular.Edward: Yeah. The, I guess the Beatles have saved music.Michael: Okay, we'll go with that. They definitely struck a nerve in our society and they're making their mark. And so time will tell us whether the Beatles will be remembered. But right now it's hard to avoid them. If you're trying to avoid them, they're everywhere.Edward: There's that question too, a thousand years from. Looking far, very, very far in the future, are we gonna remember the Fantastic four of the Beatles and I think it would be the Fantastic four, the first real superheroes on the planet are I imagine more memorable than any music bandMichael: the Fantastic four are, as we chronicled or the vanguard of this new evolution of almost post humanity then this is a moment in our history, where there's, who knows where we're going to evolve to. So my money would be that the Beatles are a flash in the pan and the Fantastic four are here to stayEdward: and interesting there's four of each of them. I think that's a coincidence?Michael: Oh my, I didn't think about that. So do you think that maybe, do you think that there's a matching principle going on here, we noted in, remember we talked about recently with the frightful four, there's four of them and we're just confused as to why they would limit them.Why wouldn't they be like the hateful eight or something. But instead it's like they pick the four and the beetles are quarted as well. So do you think. Are we? Are the Beatles being influenced by the Fantastic Four? Is music being influenced by superhero culture?Edward: Yeah, maybe. Or maybe the other way around. Maybe the Fantastic Four just search out for groups of four things.Michael: Yeah.Edward: They go to the grocery store and be like, yeah, I know you have a dozen eggs, but do you have like a smaller package, like maybe a third the size?Michael: Or maybe. Or maybe it's just. Things come into four, right? There's the four of food groups, there's four seasons. It kinda just naturally would evolve to where the Fantastic four, who, when you really think about their powers are quite elemental in nature. They have this sort of,Edward: there's four elements. There you go.Michael: There's four elements. Yeah. So maybe there's an inherent connection to the idea of having teams of four. Although maybe I'm just spinning some mirror here. But anyways,Edward: Can you match them? Can you look at the, we talked about this before, the frightful four. There's like a match almost between, Medusa had her stretchy hair. Mr. Fantastic Reed, Richards could stretch his body. There was kind of a rough match betweenMichael: mm-hmm.Edward: the Frightful Four and the Fantastic Four. Can we do the same thing with the Beatles, is there does Paul match to Sue? Like what is the match? The Four Beatles and the four Fantastic. Four.Michael: You know, I just don't know enough about 'em but maybe there might be something there. Maybe that's something that if they stick around, we can we'll explore it a little more and look, maybe they're the first. Maybe the Beatles were the first super. Powered band. Maybe we're gonna find out that they have powers too. Just don't know about, we just know, knowEdward: IF it happens to anybody, it'll happen to the Beatles. I think a couple things to talk about. I think with this encounter with the Beatles and the Fantastic Four, well, I guess the Fantastic Half, the Fantastic four, it was The Thing in the Human. Torch were going to see a show and in the process, I guess someone tried to steal all the money from the show andMichael: mm-hmm.Edward: the Fantastic Four prevented that. So I guess they did, they did their good deed for the day. But in the process of doing that good deed, they did some damage and. I think this is interesting is that the damage that they caused is not being paid for by the theater, not being paid for by the Beatles, not being paid for by the government, not even being paid for by an insurance company. The fantastic for themselves are gonna cover that damage. And I think that's just, it's interesting that it wasn't like The Thing and the Human Torch were being professionally employed by anybody. They went out of their way to help the Beatles or to help the theater anyway with these thieves, and now because of that good deed, they're gonna have to pay. They're taking the money outta their own pocket, and that doesn't seem,Michael: It doesn't, and it, but it's interesting. It probably, it gives us some insight into the institutional nature of the, or at least the institutional connection between the Fantastic Four the society that they live in. So we've talked before about how the Avengers seem to have a pretty direct connection, almost be a separate like military force or arm of the armed forces in America. But the Fantastic Four haven't. You think that Fantastic Four has some kind of formal relationship. As being almost a police force that they would. They'd have an immunity from any kind of possible civil liability or prosecution if they're,Edward: are you saying that they are a police force or they should be a police force?Michael: I'm saying that they aren't, because if they were then if they're acting in the course of their duties, then they would have an immunity from prosecution and civil liability to provide that they were still carry of their duties within their own responsibility. And so then they wouldn't care about paying the damage themselves because if they got sued, they have an insurance policy, they would respond. And they're not, they won't be worried about, say, being arrested for the damage that they caused in the course of exercising their duties.Edward: And that's, I was gonna say that's probably true. If when the US military went and asked the Fantastic four to go and take down the Hulk, they were basically working under the under the authority of the US military, and I'm assuming that any damage caused during that battle with the huk was paid for by the US government, by the military. In this case nobody asked Ben and Johney to go and stop the thieves. They just, they were good Samaritans and they went and did it. That changes the calculation a little bit.Michael: It does up that. I think when they're tasked by the American military, I think that they could be considered to be contractors in that role. But I am saying that here, that they just acted as good Samaritans and did a public good. They acted as if they were, police officers. But the fact that they paid outta pocket tells me that they don't have any kind of special protection or immunity from prosecution or from civil liability. So they did, then they wouldn't have reached into their own pocket. But the fact they reach into their own pocket tells me that they're doing the analysis, which is that it's probably better for us just to pay outta pocket than to get sued by the people that owned the buildings that were damaged or anyone that had a possible liability claim.It's probably just worth their time to pay it out. So they must have number one tons of money. And number two they don't have any kind of protection. So number three, they're gonna use their money to avoid getting sued and have their time being eaten up. It's just worth their time to just pay people rather than having a claim against them.Edward: But I guess why are they doing it at all? So basically these thieves came in, they stole the money, they took off if Ben and Johney just said, oh, you know what, that's not our problem. We're gonna go sit and watch the show.Michael: Mm-hmm. ,Edward: Then number one, they get to see the show, and number two is they're only out of the ticket price. Instead, they went and chased these guys down. They didn't get to see the show, and they had not having to pay a bunch of money outta their pocket. What was the incentive for them to do that?Michael: That's The Thing, right? If there was a, they had immunity from a civil lawsuit, then they would go do it. But here they clearly don't. And so they had to pay out of pocket because they're involved in this incident that caused damage and they pay out pocket cuz it's easier for them to make the claim go away, the potential gifts go away. And I don't know what their incentive is other than to do that other than that they're heroic or because they feel they can solve the problem and they have so much money that it's worth it for them to both be heroic and to also make sure that they don't have their time wasted that they're, after you keep against them,Edward: you keep saying they have so much money. Is that true?Michael: They'd have to, otherwise they wouldn't do it. If they didn't why would they pay out of pocket? Why would they wait and get sued? I guess.Edward: I guess that's my question. So where's that money coming from? I guess they had that one movie that they had a while back. And Reed has some inventions that he's invented. He lost all his inventions that he invented in the past due to that bankruptcy. But he presumably he's invented other things since then but it doesn't seem that that's an unlimited fund of money. I just, I think there's a, from my business world. One of the heroes of the business world was Adam Smith, who invented the whole idea the trade is good. And one of his famous quotes was, it's not the benevolence of the butcher, the baker, or the brewer that we expect our dinner, but it's regards to their self interest. We don't count on the butchers and the bakers to give us their foods for free. Why are we counting on superheroes to do all of their work for free?Michael: We're missing some information then, right? Because it's clearly happening. So number one, the Fantastic Four don't have this protection from being suit for damage that they cause in the course of acting heroically because they're paying out pocket, because that's the only reason that you would pay outta pocket. So why would they continue? Why would they do it?Edward: So let me dive into that cause it's exactly right. It sounds like of there's an incentive to be a butcher, there's an incentive to be a baker.Michael: Mm-hmm.Edward: society incentivizes people to be police officers and salesmen and retail clerks and radio personalities like us, there's all sorts of incentives in the system for these things. It sounds like right now there's a disincentive to be a superhero, and so that's what, okay, go ahead.Michael: I was gonna say that, but that's where I think this is going is that. On its face it doesn't make any sense unless they have so much money and how are they getting so much money? I don't know. Perhaps it's that we are talking about the Fantastic four who have access to space travel and interdimensional travel, right? Based on their recent adventures to our knowledge.Edward: They're just stealing from other dimensions and bringing,Michael: I don't, yeah, I don't know. I do not know if they have access to resources or minerals or something that we don't have access to here and that we're just not made aware of it. Or Reed has been inventing things and selling and profiting off of that.Edward: Yeah. So I guess that could be it, right? So you could be Right. Maybe they're just obscenely wealthy and in order to keep that wealth, in order to keep getting access to these other dimensions and keep the government off their back, they go and do good deeds for good public relations and those good deeds cost them money. But in the same way that, I dunno, Proctor and Gamble donates to clean water in Kenya, they're just like going like they're, it's like the tax on them. The good deed tax is there to keep their good PR so that they can go and make their money some other way that we don't really know.Michael: Yeah but on a personal level I work as a lawyer, so I make my money by going to work and billing and I bill my time. And so if I'm walking to work and I see someone's gonna walk into traffic and I'm gonna stop them because that's a normal human thing to do and it, but on a cost benefit, I guess it costs me time so therefore it costs me money. Cause I don't get to go to work early enough. But, It's on a human level it's what you wanna do. Now if it's now if to save, if I saw someone fall into traffic and for me to save them would require me to, you know, run.Edward: You don't want to skuff your shoes.Michael: No, but if I could lose my life, then I think that it might be more, I'd hope I'd be heroic and chance losing my life to save somebody who's falling into traffic but I don't know, maybe that's where there would be a line. And what I'm saying is that the fantastic core haven't hit that line yet. Yeah, it's still worth their time.Edward: Let's going back to this scenario, it's even worse than that. It's imagine if now you go and you save that guy, he falls down the road and you rush into the road and you save him but in so doing so, you cause a car to swerve and hit another car. And so now they wanna fine you for that car accident because you jumped in the way to save that dude. That doesn't seem right either. It's one thing you've already risked your life, you've already taken your time. Now we're gonna say, Hey, oh, and by the way, now we want your money too.Michael: That analysis only works, that analogy only works, is that I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, hold on a second. Let me pay for everything outta my own pocket. But I have an insurance policy that would respond to it. So likely I'm gonna be okay. So even if I did that quick math in my head, is it worth it for me to go in traffic?Edward: Yeah. But should your insurance company be paying for that? The guy who busted his car up again, not, not his fault, maybe the guy who felt that in traffic, you go after him, but going after the insurance company of the guy who saved the person's life, that doesn't seem right,Michael: It doesn't work like that though. If somebody falls into traffic and I go in and try to save them, as a result, some other car gets into an accident. I guess if they sustained injury, they would sue me. They wouldn't Sue the insurance company. My insurance company would respond on behalf of me. And there are some legitimate legal defenses that would apply to that very scenario where it's there. I didn't do anything wrong. I wasn't negligent. They'd have to establish negligence in order to trigger it. But my point was less about the intricacies of motor vehicle law and claims, and more just to say that my analysis is not gonna be influenced. I wouldn't have to think I take into my pocket and pay this person out rather than pay my deductible so that when I got sued, that my insurance company would respond and defend me. Whereas the Fantastic Four, clearly it's just not worth it for them to. To possibly don't have insurance, which I don't think they do to respond to the claims that would be made them damaging thatEdward: if they did their insurance would be so high ,Michael: they'd be so high.Edward: What insurance?Michael: You're an orange, rocky, monster that could destroy a building. So I think the insurance would be quite high if you had it. But at the same time, they could sued personally. The, Thing would have to, he is paying outta pocket. They must have so much money that it's just like there's, they're not even thinking about being tied up in a potential lawsuit later because so much doughEdward: and so clearly all these disincentives that we're creating haven't stopped the Fantastic Four from existing. But what's I always find interesting is when these disincentives exist, we have to ask what isn't happening because of these disincentives. Are there lots and lots of other superheroes out there that are being like, you know what, I don't wanna be a superhero. Look how much it's gonna cost. It's too expensive to be a superhero, like being a lawyer. I'll just be a lawyer by day and a nothing by night because it's too expensive.Michael: Well, I'm not, nothing by night a cause you know that.No that's why Spider-Man wears a mask. We've been quite critical on Spider-Man, how he wears a mask and doesn't reveal his identity would be super critical of him.Edward: And it's not, it's not afraid of a villain's attacking him. It's not because he's wants to do criminal things. It's because he's not super rich. Everyone who's not super rich wants to be a superhero, has to cover their face.Michael: So maybe, so I think the solution would be if we recognize it being a superhero is public good, much like having volunteer firefighters and police officers and things like that, then there needs to be new legislation passed in order to provide some immunity from civil prosecution civil claims, if he did, it would remove that disincentive if The Thing and the Torch burned down a building or destroy a building, the building owner can't sue them because they were legitimately acting the course of their superhero duties and roles, then I guess I had to put a claim over to their insurance company. But what would, and I think the only way that works is that probably all of our insurance rates are gonna rise to accommodate that but it's pretty fair to spread their risk out of superhero related damageEdward: It does. And then what that should open up is all these other superheroes that are presumably hiding right now and aren't doing anything. Or have they have secret identities or they have no identities at all because they're not super, they're just, well, they're super, but not heroes. If you wanna take, if you want more of your supers to be heroes, fix the insurance laws.Michael: No fix. You know what we need to have, there? Have to be local, state level and federal legislation that's passed in order to have, immunity from prosecution and immunity from civil claims pass. And that the question for us, I guess as a society, is that a better way to go? Or is it better to have them running around with masks and I don't know. I used to be pretty anti masked, but now I'm kind of seeing the value of it.Edward: Yeah. I think these laws, when you create these new laws, don't they have like catchy names and stuff too?Can we call this law the put the hero back in supers?Michael: I like where you're going with this, but what it be like, there's no i n team, but there's I Insurance Act from 1965. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

“You never know until you try,” explains Michael Melton, Founder and Owner of Under Pressure Power Washing, LLC. Michael has always had an entrepreneurial spirit. After dropping out of high school, Michael started his career as a painter, eventually leading him to find fulfillment in the power washing industry.   Lacking a formal business background, Michael was afraid of failure before launching Under Pressure Power Washing. After realizing that the only way to understand business was to be in it, Michael decided to finally give it a try. Now a proud owner of a successful power-washing company, Michael can provide income for himself and his family while having the flexibility of being his own boss.   Don't let fear or doubt kill your dreams. Learn more about Michael's entrepreneurial journey, getting through the bad and good times, and how you never really know if something will work if you don't try.   Quotes • “There are still a lot of stressful times and a lot of days that you question, even four years in the business, why am I still doing this? Or how can I still do this?”  (13:42-13:53 | Michael) • “It's all on you to wake up every day and provide income for yourself and your family. And there's no one else really doing it.” (14:31-14:41 | Michael) • “You never know until you try it, and you just got to start.” (20:41-20:45 | Michael) • “It's when you're actually out in the field doing it that you'll learn the most.” (21:52-21:56 | Michael)  • “Work on being the best you can possibly be at that one thing.” (25:57-26:01 | Michael)   Links Get in touch with Michael Melton: Website: https://underpressurepowerwashingllc.com/ Follow Michael on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mikejmelton Call or text at #608-490-3005 Get in touch with host Jeff Meyer: www.jeffmeyercoaching.com Book a FREE 30-Minute Dream Discovery Call with Jeff: https://calendly.com/d/dk6-mzr-dsq Schedule a Discovery Call with Jeff: https://go.oncehub.com/DreamAcceleratorDiscoveryCall   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Mr. Fernandez is President and Chief Executive Officer of 1031 Crowdfunding. Before founding the Company, he was Senior Vice President of Healthcare Real Estate Group in Irvine, California. Since January 2001, Mr. Fernandez has been responsible for researching and compiling accurately verifiable documentation across various industries, including assembling compelling content for marketing materials related to the purchase and acquisition of various real estate holdings. He has over 20 years of inside and outside sales experience. He is personally involved in raising over $800 million of equity from individual and institutional investors through private and public real estate offerings. He hired and trained a national internal wholesaler and external wholesaler sales force. In this episode, he shares how he interprets the current state of the economy and the real estate market; and how his company, 1031 Crowdfunding, creates opportunities to take advantage of during times of uncertainty. Episode Link: https://www.1031crowdfunding.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's going on everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum, and today I'm joined by Ed Fernandez, President and CEO of 1031 Crowdfunding and he's going to be talking to us today about the state of the economy, the market, and his company, 1031 Crowdfunding, and how we all can take advantage of crowdfunding 1031 exchanges. So let's get into it.   Ed what's going on, man, thanks so much for coming on and hanging out with me today. I appreciate it.   Ed: No problem. Michael, thank you so much for having me.   Michael: No, it's really, really my pleasure, I am super excited to chat with you, because you've got a really cool company doing some pretty cool things. So I know a little bit about it but for all of our listeners who aren't familiar with 1031 Crowdfunding give us a little bit of background, what is it that you all are doing?   Ed: Sure, so what we're doing is we're taking real estate, packaging it up and selling it to investors in little pieces. For those investors that are either tired of the tenants, the toilets in the trash, or they run out of this 45 day Id period that you have to actually do for the IRS and so if you're looking for institutional real estate, but you really don't want to go running around trying to find your own property in this limited period of time, you can come to 1031 Crowdfunding, where we have a slew of institutional property for those investors who are looking to be passive, and defer their taxes through a 1031 exchange.   Michael: Man, I love it, we are definitely going to come dig deeper into that because I was under the assumption that you couldn't turn 1031 into a passive investment. So we've got a lot to talk about. But before we get there, I would love if you could give us a little bit of insight into where you see us currently in today's housing market with all the stuff we got going on. We're recording this towards the latter half of September and 2022. What's going on man?   Ed: Well, as you know, yesterday, the Feds hiked rates again to another 75 basis points and so what's so what they're trying to do, obviously, and it's currently not working, by the way, they're trying to slow down in the housing market. But with money continuing to flood the economy, real estate prices are still exceeding and going up and people can afford real estate or housing, because interest rates are going up. So we're in a weird market today, I can say we can go back to 1991- 1992 and kind of look at that market, very similar type of events that are occurring today.   Michael: Okay, and for all of our listeners that weren't plugged in to the to the real estate market back then what was going on back then.   Ed: So back then it was the tech boom, right? Remember the tech bubble that blew up?   Michael: Yeah.   Ed: Prior to that event occurring, interest rates on loans were double digits 12-14% and people were still borrowing and buying houses and getting involved in real estate. But then the bubble burst in the tech industry and all that money flooded into real estate and that's where you had all this appreciation on the real estate side. So in today's market, even though we're not in double digit interest rates, interest rates are higher than what real estate is producing. So we're not as bad as we were. But we're actually pretty close to where, and who knows, we might get there. If the fence keep doing that. So those are the similarities where interest rates exceeded yields on real estate, and real estate just kept going up.   Michael: Yeah, that's so interesting. I mean, I remember hearing about those double digit interest rates, but I also have to think back and you could go park your money in a bank CD and make 6,7,8, 9%, which now is unheard of. So it's, again, we have these super high interest rates, but you can't make a yield, letting your money sit in the bank. It's getting eroded by the high inflation. So it's a really unique time   Ed: And I'm glad you brought that up. You know, what's very interesting is that Treasury bills now you could buy a federal backed treasury bill, fully liquid and get 4% where real estate is producing three and three and a half percent. So you're kind of seeing what's going on in this market.   Michael: Yeah, yeah. Where do you think we're headed? I want you to break out your crystal ball, change the batteries out put fresh ones in there. What's going on in the next two, three years?   Ed: You know, it's, it's, it's a weird market, you know, I'm not gonna get into the political frying pan of who's doing what?   Michael: Yeah…   Ed: Right. But if money continues to flood this economy, I don't know how you put on the brakes on inflation, if that continues to happen. So what has to happen and what I hope happens is that money tightens up so that the feds can kind of slow down and we can get real estate to a level where people can still buy a home, the millennials, those are the first time homebuyers and investors can still get a yield. I don't see that happening at least for another two years. That's where I think we're headed but we'll wait and see.   Michael: Okay and are you thinking that the interest rate hike is going to continue along that two year frame or are we kind of plateauing and we just have to wait a little bit longer for the effects to take hold?   Ed: Well, if Feds continue to raise interest rates, then now we're gonna go into a recession and how do we come out of that? So it's a fine line of how much to push and how much not to push. So we just got to wait and see, look, if I had a crystal ball, and I can tell you exactly what is going on, I would not be on this call. I'd be on my 200 foot yacht in Monaco watching F1. So I'm just letting you know.   Michael: Totally. Yeah, that's a great point to make. All right. Well, I am very curious to see how it all shakes out, I think, as are many others, but and let's transition here and talk about temporary 1031 Crowdfunding.   So someone has an asset to sell. They've, they've seen the skyrocketing appreciation and let's just walk through it like some numbers as an example. Because I find that makes the conversation a bit more concrete. someone's property is worth a million bucks. They got 400,000 and debt on it and they want to go 1031. The thing, so they sell it for 1,000,000 1031 rule says they got to buy something for at least a million, if not more. Where does sentry one crowdfunding come into play here? Does someone have to bring additional 400k that was in debt to the table to invest in have a proper 1031, how does that work?   Ed: No, no, absolutely not. So one of the one of the biggest things of a 1031 exchange is what we call closing risk, right and so you have 45 days to try to find something and then that's not, you know, there's holidays, weekends, that all counts, right? So you're out there, pounding the pavement, trying to find a replacement property within that 45 day period, which makes it very difficult. So in using your example, if an investor had a million dollar sale with $400,000 of debt, they can invest as long as they're an accredited investor and let me define that either an annual income of $200,000 a year for an individual 300,000 per couple or a million dollar net worth excluding the home you live in, you can come to our website and at any given time, we have anywhere between 30 to 50 different options to choose from and these investments are called Delaware statutory Trust, the term we use is DST been around since 2004, directly on the IRS website, and really what the DST is, is very similar to a living or family trust, where there's a trustee managing a trust for the beneficiaries, you as an investor, or a beneficial owner of a trust that's on title real property. So it could be a $50 million apartment building $100 million Amazon distribution center and for as little as $25,000, you can own a piece of this big property, right off all your expenses, like you're doing today, on your schedule II get paid cash flow on a monthly basis every 15th of the month, and when the property is sold, all the investors get 100% of the upside, and you're still in another 1031 exchange. So that's what we do. We're looking for those investors that are looking for passive investments, tired of the tenants and toilets in the trash or running out of time? Those are the ones that give us a call.   Michael: Yeah, no, that makes total sense and it sounds awesome. So if we go back to our example, of the million bucks in the in the 400k in debt, how does it work because like, my understanding is if I'm if I'm selling something for a million, I gotta go replace that with a million dollars of property. So if I go invest with you all, do I have to bring the extra 100,000, how does that work?   Ed: No, here's how it works. I'll give you an analogy. So let's say I'm a trustee. I'm going to go out and buy a $20 million apartment building. I'm going to create this broader. As the trustee, I'm going to the bank. They're approving me as the warm body, and they're underwriting the real estate, let's say they lend me $10 million. I'm the one that signs on the bad boy carve outs, and I'm the one that signs on the loan. So now the profit, I have 10 million of debt, I need another 10 million in cash. So I write a check for 10 million, and I close the property inside that trust. So to make the numbers easy, let's just call it 50%. LTV or loan to value and so let's say you sold your property for a million dollars, and you paid off the loan, and you got $500,000 in cash, and you got to buy something for a million dollars or greater. Well, when you invest in the DST, the DST already has a 50% loan on it and what happens is that it applies that debt to your position, along with the $500,000 of cash that you invest it. Now at closing, you own $1 million of this $20 million property, which allows you to satisfy your exchange.   Michael: No way. Everyone watching this video just watched my brain explode. That is why that is super cool. All right. All right, I dig it and can people invest using an entity? So like, if I have an LLC that I own this property in that I'm now selling? I need to keep that same entity, right as my purchasing as my up leg for the new property can folks use their entities to invest with you all?   Ed: Shoot, Michael, send me your resume I should be hiring you here quickly… Absolutely. So, so yeah. So you have to use the same tax ID number, right. So one of the one of the things we do in process in talking to investors is we ask them, are you owning this as an individual, an LLC, a trust and based on whatever tax ID number they're using on the sale of the property that tax ID number is the purchaser of this DST. So yes, you have to invest the way you sold.   Michael: I love it, I love it and are you I know you said you're passing on cash flows and 100% of the upside, which is insane. We're gonna talk about that in a minute but are you also passing along depreciation to the investors?   Ed: Absolutely. So whatever remaining basis they have from the sale will carry forward to this investment and based on the asset type, if it's an apartment building or residential 27 and a half years, or commercial 39 years, yes, depreciation will carry forward, in addition to that some of the opportunities have what's called a Cost Segregation analysis done on it, where you accelerated depreciation on the personal property in the first year, which is a huge help to shelter cash flow from tax.   Michael: Yeah, I love it, I love it. I've done several of those ad it's just been amazing to see what my taxes look like postclassic.   Ed: Yeah, It's good stuff…   Michael: And just getting back just for a minute on the accredited investor designation, because the question I'm realizing I've had for a while, and we always joke in the podcasts are super self-serving, I get to get educated here along with all of our listeners, we talked about the requirement having 200k as a single or 300k as a couple for the last two years. Is that adjusted gross income or is that net?   Ed: Adjusted.   Michael: Okay adjusted…   Ed: That's adjusted and here's the here's why that's required. It's because the investments in a DST are illiquid, right? So the regulatory environment wants to make sure that if you do have a financial emergency, that you have other funds to go after, and it doesn't have drastically affect your life, because you are in an investment that's illiquid. So that's why the requirements there.   Michael: Yeah, that makes sense and the alternative way to qualify as having a million dollar net worth or more, right…   Ed: Correct, or let's say you're in the financial services industry, and your securities license, and you don't have the net worth or the income, because of your professionalism and the designations that you hold that also actually qualifies as an accredited investor.   Michael: Okay, good to know. I was gonna say, yeah, because it could be kind of interesting. Speaking about cost segregation studies. If someone's got great income, but also has a great tax strategist, their AGI is probably going to be zero, if they know what they're doing and so that they could get discredited that way. But the net worth piece probably comes into play more often than the income piece, I'd imagine.   Ed: It does. Yeah, because we deal our client profile is anywhere between 55 to 90 years old and so they're always saying that they don't have the income, but they definitely have the net worth.   Michael: Yeah. Okay. Why is that? Why is your target demo in that age bracket?   Ed: It's because if you're younger, you know, I'm a control freak, right? I want to control everything. When you're younger, you want to control your destiny. Though most younger real estate investors go by their own deal, they manage their own deal, and they live or die with their performance. But when you get a little older, and you've already built up your net worth, you get tired of those tenants in those toilets in those trash, right and so you are looking for a passive way to continue to kick that can down the street, i.e. taxes and so normally the demographic is 55 years or older, they're kind of slowing down on their real estate investment portfolios.   Michael: Yeah and that makes total sense and so talk to us a little bit about what the exit looks like on some of your deals, because I was looking at your website, before we hopped on, I noticed you have some triple net stuff. So I'm just curious, you know, how are you exiting those assets?   Ed: Sure. So it's got to be accretive to the to the beneficial owner or the investors, I would say triple net lease stuff. Those are bonds. If you're looking for a Walgreens $1, General and Amazon, you shouldn't expect appreciation on those opportunities, you should just expect that coupon plus getting your money back, right? If you're looking for appreciation, which I would call more like a dividend stock. That would be a multi-tenant asset, apartment senior housing, student housing, self-storage, where you have the ability to mark rents to market which gives you that that appreciation. So the exit really is going to be based on the economics is or are the investors making money. If they're not making money, there's no reason to sell because it's still producing the cash flow, right. So as soon as the property starts appreciation to a point where the sponsor or the trustee feels okay, it's time to sell. That's the exit, you put it on the open market, you got a real estate broker, you get the offers coming in, and then you pick the best offer and you sell the property.   Michael: Love it and are you all targeting value add type of stuff, are you getting stabilized assets? What is the mix look like?   Ed: So the DST cannot use value add assets, meaning it can't move walls, and has to be stabilized assets? Unlike a tenant in common, right. 10 in common, you can do that, right, so the DST is all stabilized assets and when I say stabilized, it's either if it's multi-tenant, that's 90% plus occupancy and if it's single tenant, triple net investment grade tenant corporately guarantee and leases.   Michael: And is that regulated by the DSDM, is that a requirement of the entity structure that you're using?   Ed: That is the structure, yes, sir. That's the structure. Because if you if you disqualify the structure, You disqualify the exchange and now, people pay taxes, because it's not approved by the IRS.   Michael: Interesting. So the IRS is actually dictating what type of asset you can own in order to get this 1031 designation and benefits.   Ed: Yeah, if they're, you know, there's a specific structure and a specific way that needs to be structured. That's why a DST should have a legal tax opinion attached to it, from your securities lawyers to show that the structure is complying with this approved structure, that it should not be challenged if you invest and qualify for the deferral of tax via 1031.   Michael: Interesting, are there other vehicles out there that you could do something similar but have a value add component   Ed: Tenant in common. A tick, we call it a tick, the similarities are very similar to the point where you own a fraction of a piece of property. The differences are huge. Tenant and Commons. The investors make all the investment decisions. A tenant in common can have a capital call, a tenant in common can use non stabilized assets, a tenant in common can leverage the property and so back in 2000, and 4,5,6, and seven, the tenant in common was the most primary way of syndicating 1031 exchanges. But then and so, you know, everyone is going to agree as far as the investors are concerned when real estate goes up but in 2008, great recession, you have savvy investors, not so savvy investors. It's called hurting the cats. They disagreed on everything, right and so about six and a half billion dollars went into receivership by tips and so banks will not lend to a tenant in common structure. So your question and previously of how do I replace the debt would not happen in a tenant in common. That's why more tenant in common deals are all cash and the way they address Sit to investors is, hey, all cash, no foreclosure is owned, by the way, we're going to lever you up, pull the cash out and get it back to you tax free. Well, that's what happened in 2008 and everyone lost their money. So ticks in our business is a four letter word.   Michael: Very interesting. Okay, this is really good to know it. I'm curious and maybe some of our listeners are as well, because the investors are getting the cash flow, the investors are getting 100% of the upside, you're doing all the work, how does 1031 Crowdfunding make money, how do you all get paid?   Ed: So it's aggregating a portfolio. So yeah, we charge an acquisition fee, right anywhere between two to 4%, upfront and then we also get asset management fees, it's anywhere between half a percent to 1% off of the cash flow, but you really don't get rich doing that but the idea as a sponsor is, if you're managing $5 billion worth of assets, and you're charging a 1% asset management fee, you're making $50 million a year just unfortunately, watching paint dry.   Michael: It's not a bad business model.   Ed: It's not a bad business model. But you know, there's a lot of work to it. I'm thinking I'm kind of, you know, dumbing it down, but that's how sponsors make their money.   Michael: Okay, all right. This is great. If someone is considering investing with 1031 Crowdfunding or a different syndication, what are some things that they should be looking for? How do they go and educate themselves about the sponsor and about the deal?   Ed: You know, that's, that's a big deal right there and that's a great question because these deals have an upfront expense, we call it the load, right and even though the load doesn't affect an investor's capital accounts, so if you put a million dollars in, you're getting credit for the whole million in your cash flow is based on that whole million. The problem is, is that you overpay for that property. So let's give you that $20 million example that I used earlier, right? Let's say there's a 10% load on it. Even though I bought it for 20 million, I have to offer it to you for 22 million and even though your capital account is not affected, it's when you sell the real estate when that becomes material and so you need to make sure that the real estate can appreciate above its expenses, before entertaining a sale, right? So that at least you come out at par if you're going to invest in these things, and you're using a financial advisor to advise you to do this, the most important question you should ask is, Mr. Advisor, when does this investment overcome its upfront expenses and if that guy is any good, you should be able to tell you that, that's the most important thing when it comes to investing in these DSPs.   Michael: Yeah, that's super, a super great question to be armed with and so are most folks who are investing with you coming to you all via their advisors or via their team or they individuals. I mean, how do you find most of your clients?   Ed: So I'm, we do a lot of marketing, right. So we do a lot of SEO, a lot of SEM, I do things like this, my PR team is working. So we get anywhere between five to 700 new registrations a month on our website and we currently have about 60,000 registered investors today and so they just Google 1031 exchanges, and we pop up. So we're not, we don't use the financial services industry to distribute these products, even though we are in that service. But people normally just find us on their own or an attorney might say a CPA might say their friends might have used us. We have wonderful Google reviews. They just find us that's how they get to us.   Michael: Yeah. Okay, that makes a lot of sense and I'm wondering if you can shed light on like your worst deal ever, how it went wrong, and what happened?   Ed: That's a great so 2020 on the east coast of Florida, apartment building got hit twice by hurricanes within three weeks. Okay and you probably it's right, that time when Maria was coming and all that stuff. The property got flooded. 50% of the units became uninhabitable. Cash Flow stopped to investors, enough cash flow to pay debt service and then you had to get to the insurance companies and get the catastrophic damage insurance payment and the renter's interruption insurance payment and remember, I told you in a DST you can't do construction, right. So how do you fix the unit, right? So there's a term called a springing LLC. That's an every single DST ppm or private placement memorandum and what that what that means is that you dissolve the DST and now you're a member of an LLC, non-taxable event, your exchange is still good but now in an LLC, you can do construction, you can modify loans, you can do all these things to fix the property, right? So you go and you start fixing the property, you release the property, reinstate cash flow, right. But the issue is, you can't go your separate way anymore. You're in an LLC. So the entire LLC has to do an exchange or not. So they don't want to mess up there at 1031. So the LLC sells the property, does an exchange into another property and then two years later, the terms called Safe Harbor, you can convert it back into a DST and then everyone can go their separate ways when the property sells. That is the worst deal that has happened since I've been doing this.   Michael: And did the insurance proceeds cover all of your expenses enough in your business interruption to kind of make you guys hold in during the process?   Ed: Yeah, absolutely. So even though the timeline was delayed, the investors did very, very well. They just lost cashflow for about a year but then when the property was sold, they did well.   Michael: Yeah, I love it, I love and that's one of the things I really love about real estate investing as a whole is if you understand what you're doing the downside just isn't that scary…   Ed: Yeah, I agree. I mean, dirt is never gonna go to zero, right? It's just not gonna happen.   Michael: Right, right, man twice in three weeks. I mean, the only thing that I've heard of comfortable that I'm doing, I'm in the midst of a develop redevelopment project and I had two fires in the same building a week apart, during the course of construction.   Ed: Wow. Oh, that's not good. It's sucked.   Michael: It sucked, so… Oh, man. This has been super fun, man. If people want to find out more about you, continue the conversation invest with you, or what's the best way for them to do that and get a hold of you.   Ed: So you can go to 1031crowdfunding.com , like a crowd of people not a crown on your head, right or you can dial our number 844-533-1031 and you're absolutely you'll be able to find us.   Michael: Good stuff. Well, hey, thanks again for coming on and sharing and helping educate our folks. We'll definitely chat soon.   Ed: Michael, thank you so much. Looking forward to hearing back from you.   Michael: You got it, take care.   All right, everyone. That was our episode a big thank you to Ed for coming on super interesting stuff. I learned a ton. If you are in the middle of a 1031 or thinking about it definitely an interesting option to take advantage of. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing…

Daria Davydenko is a Securities Sales and Operations Specialist at Roofstock where she supports Roofstock's fractional ownership product, Roofstock One. Prior to that, Daria served as Vice President at Goldman Sachs. Her background in finance provides her with a unique view of financial markets and risk management. In this episode, Daria walks us through the history of public and private REITs, and who might be a good fit for investing in them. Additionally, she covers Roofstock's exciting new investment, Roofstock One, a fractional ownership option for accredited investors. Episode Link: https://www.roofstock.com/one --- Transcript Before we get into the episode, this podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and is not financial, investment, or tax advice. The information provided is not directed toward any investor or category of investors and is provided solely as general information products and services or to provide general investment education. Nothing in this podcast should be construed as, and may not be used in connection with, an offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy or hold, an interest in any security or investment product.   Michael: What's going on everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today with me, I have Daria Davydenko, who is our sales and operations lead for Roofstock One and she's going to be talking to us about the history of public and private REITs really what they are, and who might be a good fit for investing in them. So let's get into it.   Daria, what's going on? Welcome back to the podcast. Great to have you back.   Daria: Hey, Michael, good to see you again. Thank you for having me.   Michael: Yeah, my pleasure, my pleasure. Great to see you again. So today, we're talking about a really cool offering Roofstock has Roofstock One. Can you give us a really quick insight into what that is and then I would love if you could help walk us through kind of the history of REITs in this product and how it came to be?   Daria: Yeah, sure. So Roofstock One is a relatively new offering that we have as part of all of the different products use that we have on roofstock.com. Roofstock One is structured as a private REIT. So one of the benefits of investing in Roofstock One is if you invest in real rental properties, you have the benefit of knowing exactly what your own. While it is a nice benefit, generally, it's not available to visit more passive real estate investments like REITs, public or private. However, we made Roofstock One different, even though it is structured as a private REIT. It is a fully transparent and customizable. So you know exactly what your own by buying a share of Roofstock One. So it is the first of its kind single family rental rate that's transparent and somewhat customizable to investors.   Michael: Awesome. All right. Well, we're definitely gonna dig more into that here in a little bit. But I would love if you could give us again, a kind of a background, like what is a REIT? How did we get here public versus private, bring us up to speed.   Daria: Yeah, so actually, what so REITs have a very interesting history, that I don't think a lot of people realize how the first I guess, you know, private equity firms have emerged, and then how can a REIT structure was created. So back in the 1980s, investors were mainly individuals and they were kind of using real estate to kind of harvest losses and shelter profits. So that was kind of the main reason why people were investing in real estate and also in the 80s, there was something that was called S and L. That they were created by the Federal Home Loan Bank act of 1932. They were like Savings and Loan Banks that basically had some caps on interest rates on deposits and loans, and but they were able to basically lend money to those individuals so they can buy real estate. Now, obviously, in the 80s, we all know that there was a recession and so because of the restrictions that were placed, placed on this SML banks, you know, because they had some caps on interest rates on deposits and loans, it greatly limited their ability to compete with other lenders as the economy slowed and inflation took hold and so for instance, as savers spelled money into the newly created money market funds that were yielding, like a much higher interest rates, like SNL just could not compete with those traditional banks due to their kind of lending restrictions and so when you add the recession of what happened is because the recession was sparked by the high interest rates that were set by the Fed in an effort to end the double digit inflation, which is kind of what we are kind of seeing right now, nowadays. So now we're left with little, you know, little more than, you know, kinda like a dwindling portfolio of low interest rate mortgage loans and so obviously, their revenue stream, you know, were severely tightened and so in the 1986, Reagan changed the law and then this indication was, you know, basically it was no longer working and there was no longer like the tax loss harvesting that was allowed in real estate, that can actually cause a real estate values to crater because a lot of people did not see any value of investing, I guess, are holding real estate anymore and so that actually caused SNL crisis and so I think a lot of people don't realize but during the SNL crisis, there were like 8000 banks that have failed. So, because of this, yeah, because of this kind of crisis that happened. I mean, this was like the largest crisis, you know, since the largest collapse of US financial institutions since the Great Depression.   And so like that, that kind of happened in the 1986 and so what happened, right, so once there's no kind of crisis happened, the government had to step in. So while they found that there was a lot of highly levered foreclosed personnel that owned a lot of real estate, and so government inadvertently owned those banks, and so they end up owning hundreds and 1000s of properties. What happened next is they have created something that's called the Resolution Trust Corporation, that basically became a property manager. So there sole purpose was to own and dispose of those distressed assets. So Resolution Trust Corporation or short, RTC was a temporary federal agency. So basically, from the 89, to the 95. You know, they largely were trying to kind of resolve this SNL crisis that happened in the 1980s, they, you know, they were basically like trying to do some property management, cleanup, what kind of what was left behind and another, I guess, purpose or creation, the RTC was to dispose of this assets. Now, the government wants to sell a lot of assets and so they need to have, you know, it's going to be highly inefficient for them to find like a single bar and buy, like, you know, who can just buy like a single property. So what they had to do is they had to figure out how to find a pooled vehicle that can just come in and buy this pooled kind of assets and so that's when the first private equity firms were created, who kind of came in, they were able to kind of pull financing, and then kind of buy like large amounts of this kind of real estate that was left behind after the SNL crisis. So that's where kind of their real estate or you know, kind of private equity investment was created. That's kind of the history of it. Now, the real estate investment trusts were a way for individual investors or intervene institution investors to get exposure to real estate without kind of having to go through, like active management of the underlying real estate. So Real Estate Investment Trust was a way to, for you to get exposure to, you know, real estate as a class. But you don't, you don't have to kind of forego, like, you know, the whole kind of financing closing, you know, property management aspect of it, while still enjoying the benefits of getting dividend distributions from the rental income, you know, the appreciation of the properties, etc. and then, in addition to that kind of REITs were created to encourage investors to get into the real estate market, and also get some kind of tax benefits from it. Now, I know I spoke a lot. So I just want to make sure I, you know, there's any questions that I can answer for you, Michael.   Michael: This is super interesting. I mean, one thing that terrifies me is this idea of government, governmental property management, that just would have been an absolute nightmare, because we all know how that probably worked out. But no, I think that makes a ton of sense and so the so these private equity firms were created to buy all of the hundreds of 1000s of distressed assets that the government ended up owning because of the collapse and the financial crisis. But so maybe, help me understand what a REIT is, like, is a REIT a share of the private equity company that then owns these properties, is that how that works?   Daria: Yeah, so REIT is basically like a pooled vehicle, you can imagine that, you know, let's say, like, just as a simple example, let's say you, Michael, you own kind of 10 different properties and you would like to allow other, you know, investors to kind of participate in ownership of those properties. You know, you can package them basically into a read. Of course, this is more complex than kind of what I'm describing, but in the simple terms, you can package it into the REIT and sell basically shares of the three to other investors who can get economic benefits of kind of owning 10 of those properties. REIT like many companies, they distribute earnings to investors in the form of dividends, unlike many companies have a REIT incomes are not taxed at the corporate level. So kind of that means that REITs are actually they avoid the double taxation of corporate tax and personal income tax. So instead REITs are sheltered from the corporate taxes so their investors are only taxed once and this is a major reason why investors value REITs over you know, other dividend paying kind of structures out there. Another benefit of REITs I guess, that they were created is that they're widely used because they're highly for favorable tax advantages are REITs are required to distribute 90% of their earnings to investors and so that kind of like allows them to avoid the double taxation that I mentioned previously and so this benefit kind of trickles down to all the underlying investors, you know, they're not being double taxed, and they can receive the maximum amount of capital from rate, I guess another advantage, I mean, we all know that investing in real estate, one of the biggest advantages of is the depreciation.   So depreciation can be passed through to individual investors, even in a REIT structure, basically, you because you get to offset your income is a depreciation kind of tax deduction. Let's say you might be earning tax dollars, that $10 per share, but you only will be paying like $7 as an example, paying taxes on the $7 of those earnings and in addition to that, if you're kind of holding your shares, for longer than a year, you will be paying the long term capital gains taxes, which is kind of much lower than your ordinary income tax. There was another kind, I guess, good, good question that you raised Michael, about what is the difference between private and public REITs, the main difference is private REITs are less liquid, you know, compared to public REITs, public REITs are the ones that are being traded on the public stock exchange and so you're basically kind of they're just like stocks, you can buy them and you can sell them and you will also be getting the dividends while private REITs they're not being traded on the public stock market and so hence, they're being sought after as like a less liquid option for you to own real estate. But at the same time, they're less volatile, obviously, because they're not subject to all of the changes that are happening in the public markets. So you just kind of there's just some kind of major differences, right? The liquidity but you know, because you're foregoing the liquidity, you're obviously getting less of like volatility in the stock price of your, you know, under the ownership of the shares of the REIT. So that's kind of the major kind of difference between public and private REITs.   Michael: Okay. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Thanks for walking me through that. I guess the question that gets begged next is the Roofstock has been a marketplace for transacting on single family homes for years now. Why, like, why is this product coming about? Who is it designed to serve and who might not be a good fit for?   Daria: No, that's an excellent question. I think we what we have found as we've been speaking with investors who come to the roofstock.com website and who really enjoy owning kind of real estate and single family rental properties, in particular, one of the feedbacks we have been receiving from investors is that they are some of them you know, obviously, if you want to buy properties outright, you are getting, you know, there is like a large deposit, I guess, that you have to put to buy a property, there is a financing, there is like a very long process of kind of closing, the Roofstock does a very good job at making sure that we simplify this process for investors. So we tried to make it as simple and as friendly as possible. But still, there are multiple steps for you to close on a single property. But obviously, you will be kind of subject to that single asset race grade, if you are only owning a single property you will kind of whatever happens with this property, it will kind of great greatly affect your cash flow, now we have created Roofstock One because investors have been basically asking us, hey, I really can enjoy single family rental investing, but I'm still kind of trying to learn the space and understand how it works. I've never owned single family rentals before and so kind of I'd like to dip my toes into this asset class and so I think Roofstock One kind of offers this perfect opportunity for somebody to own this exposure to this asset class, single family rentals, while you know being completely passive, so meaning you don't need to go through the kind of the whole process of closing on the property, finding the financing, you know, finding the property manager, we do all of that for you.   You just kind of buy the share of stock one REIT you get exposure to this particular asset class and then kind of get, you know, potentially get quarterly dividends from the rental income and kind of just learn a little bit about single family rentals, how it works, how you know how you receive the dividends and gonna get accustomed to kind of owning single family rental asset class, where we have seen as there are, you know, some investors who really enjoy kind of being actively involved in the day to day of managing properties because you get this kind of owner exposure means that some people really like and so for those people, maybe Roofstock One might be a little bit too hands off and so they might kind of prefer to do like the direct ownership of the property. But there are also like a certain subset of individuals who just don't have the time to, like, investigate and spend time with property management companies and figure out like, you know, if they should increase the rent, or drop the rent, just kind of just to find tenants for the house, or should they kind of, I don't know, change the roof, or change the water heater in a property or wait for another month or two. So it kind of… Michael: All the operational stuff…   Daria: All the operational stuff, all of this kind of micro decisions that you kind of don't realize, but they do pile up and they do take a little bit of your time. So you know, some, some of those individuals are like, Look, I just want an exposure to this particular asset class, I want it to be passive, I really enjoy it, I think, you know, I believe in single family rental, kind of asset class in particular and so, you know, this is like, a perfect way for me to get a passive exposure, while still kind of feeling like I'm owning some, you know, underlying properties and we try to kind of make it as transparent as possible to investors, so they actually can see, you know, what properties are inside, you know, Roofstock, one reads, so they can understand, you know, what homes, kind of their tracking the economic performance of, and so they're still kind of getting the feeling of like, okay, with this share, I potentially can own 10 to 20 you know, how many properties they would like, still kind of feel like they're owning those properties. But you know, they don't have to spend as much time on the operation or day to day stuff. So yeah, that's kind of the major reason why we have created the Roofstock One is just to serve certain subset of our investors that we have seen come through roofstock.com website and, you know, obviously, there is absolutely still a lot of kind of benefit of owning the properties outright. But there's also like, you know, there's just a time kind of aspect that's involved in it as well.   Michael: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense and you said something about, for those people that are still learning want to dip their toes into the water, Roofstock One might be a good fit. But if I'm thinking about like a traditional REIT, I can go buy it on the stock market, I buy a share of it. I don't hear from anyone, I don't know what's going on in the day, like, I have zero insight into this. Is that different with Roofstock One like can someone truly expect to learn a little bit about what it's like to own single family rentals with roof stock one, or is it going to be just as hands off in passive and kind of, at a distance, like a traditional route would be?   Daria: I'd say it's somewhere in the middle. So I mean, it is just as hands off and passive. But I guess the major benefit is in public creeds, I guess it's a little bit more of like a pooled vehicle. So just by buying a share of like a public REIT, let's say, for example, that there are like 60, and 1000 properties that are public REIT owns. Now they can be in different like various markets, right. So there could be across many different states in the United States and so you kind of get exposure to all of those kind of little, you know, properties a little bit. So Roofstock One allows you to be a little bit more targeted, if you wish to do so, we have something that's kind of cool, called like a tracking stock, which is like a mini portfolio of subset of properties. So let's say if you're interested in a certain region in the US, just as an example, let's say Georgia, because you believe in this region, or maybe you have invested in this region before, you can get exposure only to the properties in Georgia instead of kind of getting the exposure to all of the properties inside the Roofstock One. But at the same time, if you don't have anything, you know, any convictions and you just kind of enjoy single family rental kind of asset class and you just want to have diversification, then you can also just kind of do that and you can just by exposure to all of the properties inside the restock one read. So we kind of just provide like an ultimate flexibility of investors coming in and kind of creating their own journey. Almost like a custom rate, create your own custom read…   Michael: The subway sandwich of REITs…   Daria: Exactly. Yeah, it's like a Subway sandwich. You're correct. Yeah, that just you know, you choose whatever you want, like and you can even choose your own sauce visit.   Michael: Except we use real fish and real meat in our subway sandwich. Don't know if this is the best analogy but people get the point.   Daria: Yeah, like yeah, we're you know, we're the like a guest who's probably accretes you're just kind of getting the you know, whatever the prepackage Subway sandwich that, you know, is not customizable, and you can't even choose your sauce. So that's kind of how I would think about it. I think the benefit of it is like, look, you can still kind of see what are the properties, underlying properties inside the, like those mini portfolios, for example, which is definitely something that you want to get with like a traditional public REITs, I feel like that they're kind of more giving you like, hey, this is our general structure, or a general investment objective, this is what we're doing this is like, let's say, 30% of our portfolios in Georgia, like x percentages in some other state, which is also great for those people who don't really have much conviction, and maybe they just want to get the general kind of diversified exposure. But you can also have to just be mindful of this kind of this still difference, there is still like this difference that exists between private and public REITs, where no public REITs are still subject to the same market volatility as any other stock would be, you know, I wouldn't say that there is like one, right or wrong way, just kind of, it's all about diversification, and what fits your investment goals and investment needs, and what makes sense for you, and for your investment portfolio and, you know, we're just kind of offering a way for real estate investors to create their custom REITs, if they want to get exposure to the whole asset class, if they wish to do so. They can also mix and match they can invest a little bit into public rates a little bit into private REITs and again, you know, there's it's always, diversification has always been a good way for you to kind of diversify your risk, so…   Michael: Yeah, okay, I do get well, Daria I have a question. That's maybe on every buddy's mind who's listening, you talked about the hurdles and barriers to entry of investing directly, and that's usually coming in the form of down payment heavyweight financing and there's steps involved, how much does investing in recycling cost? What's Is there a minimum investment is our maximum investment, like walk us through what that looks like?   Daria: Yeah, so we actually kind of tried to bring it down to minimum investment is $5,000. So anyone who so there is like a limitation that we you do have to be an accredited investor and accredited investor is something that's basically set up by CC, that's kind of their rules and regulations that in order for you to be invested in private REIT, you kind of have to be an accredited investor and I think it's kind of basically done for the benefit of the investors themselves. Since it is a limited liquidity you do want to make sure you have enough liquid cash that kind of set aside you know, that you have access to because you will if you're invested in into like any private vehicle private REIT or anything else, usually you know, you will not be able to like us you know this drill those money for like five years or so and so, I think that accredited investors just kind of really done to make sure that investors understand that this particular funds will not be able they will not be able to access it and they have enough liquidity on hands to you know, meet any some sort of like liquidity needs that they have during their like day to day life. Now accredited investor, someone who, who is an accredited investor, guess accredited investor is someone who has a net worth of a million dollars and that can include their real estate, investment portfolio or retirement, you know, retirement portfolios, or, you know, bank assets, kinda you name it, it can't include their private primary residence, but if they have secondary homes, and, you know, if they can only count equity basically on those properties, so if they have like a mortgage on the secondary home, they will have to figure out like how much of equity they have, and they can count it towards their networks. Another way to understand if you're an accredited investor is if you are making over $200,000 per year, and you've made over $200,000 per year, in the past two years, or you and your spouse or partner are making over $300,000 together this year and in the past two years. So those are kind of some of the limitations that beans set and they just kind of follow those limitations. But as long as you are kind of accredited investor, you can put you know $5,000 into like a Roofstock One REIT and there's $5,000 can be invested across all of our offerings. So we you know, we are not limiting you can only put $5,000 into like a separate a single kind of mini portfolio or a tracking stock. What we call, you can, you know, put $1,000 or $100 into tracking stock and the rest into like a giant, like a bigger font or you know, vice versa. So you can customize this $5,000 as much as you would like. So yeah, that's, that's kind of the limit. Yeah…   Michael: Great. Okay and I would imagine that other private REITs and for sure, public REITs that have been around for a while, have a track record the history of performance does Roofstock One have that yet or is it too new, like, how has it been performing to date?   Daria: Yeah, we do have a track record on Roofstock when you launched Roofstock One in November last year. So we are a little bit close to like a year of existence. So we have been distributing dividends and the dividend yields that we have distributed for the historical or like our past offerings, they are listed on our website. They can be accessed here, the investor reports and we also do have appreciation of the assets that has happened since we acquired them back in, let's say, November. So we just recently started to calculate something that's called nav, which is net asset value of our investments and that's in general, how private REITs figure out what is the value of their shares. So unlike public REITs, where the share price has been determined by the kind of just the normal forces of the markets, private REITs, because they're private, they, you know, they had to kind of figure out a way to value the assets, the underlying assets that they have and so the net asset value is kind of the common term where NAV is kind of a common term that they use to figure out what is the share price of their rate and that's what the Roofstock One does as well. So we are just like any other private three, we calculate NAV, we publish it, and then can investors are able to track estimated value of their shares. Now the reason I say it's estimated is because obviously, until we sell the assets, we wouldn't know the exact value of, of the underlying assets, we can only kind of do like an estimation of where we think it is right now. But it is, you know, a good proxy, I guess, for an investor to think, hey, this is like my estimated value. But you know, until you can actually sell the assets and just kind of the nature of real estate market in general, that it's very illiquid, and you wouldn't know the value of the asset until you actually like listed for sale and you started getting some buyers who are interested giving you offers etc. So very similar, you know, in REITs, because we own underlying assets. There, you know, we're kind of subject to the same market forces as any anyone else who owns real estate. But you know, net asset value is a good measure for someone to use to determine what is the estimated value of their shares.   Michael: Okay, okay super informative from the history to the product offering and why it makes sense. This is awesome. If people want to learn more about private REITs chat with you learn about Roofstock One, where's the best place for them to do that?   Daria: Yeah, we can be found on the roof stock.com website, or someone can just type in www.roofstock.com/O N E -one. That's our website. Now feel free to give us a call there is a button that you can click on and request a phone call and we have very friendly people to chat and they're always happy to talk about real estate, private REITs single family rentals investing. Now we love investors ask us questions and they love talking to them on various subjects. So yeah, you know, feel free to check out our websites style by ask questions and we are always happy to chat.   Michael: Amazing, well thanks again and definitely looking forward to seeing where Roofstock One goes from here. Talk soon.   Daria: Thank you Michael. Thank you for having me today.   Michael: You got it, take care.   Okay, everyone, that was our episode A big thank you to Daria for coming on really interesting stuff with the product offering as well as the history of REITs themselves. So go check out the website at roofstock.com/one. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, definitely love hearing from you. All ratings and reviews are super appreciated and we look forward to seeing the next one. Happy investing…

About MichaelMichael is the Director of Threat Research at Sysdig, managing a team of experts tasked with discovering and defending against novel security threats. Michael has more than 20 years of industry experience in many different roles, including incident response, threat intelligence, offensive security research, and software development at companies like Rapid7, ThreatQuotient, and Mantech. Prior to joining Sysdig, Michael worked as a Gartner analyst, advising enterprise clients on security operations topics.Links Referenced: Sysdig: https://sysdig.com/ “2022 Sysdig Cloud-Native Threat Report”: https://sysdig.com/threatreport TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Something interesting about this particular promoted guest episode that is brought to us by our friends at Sysdig is that when they reached out to set this up, one of the first things out of their mouth was, “We don't want to sell anything,” which is novel. And I said, “Tell me more,” because I was also slightly skeptical. But based upon the conversations that I've had, and what I've seen, they were being honest. So, my guest today—surprising as though it may be—is Mike Clark, Director of Threat Research at Sysdig. Mike, how are you doing?Michael: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. How are you doing?Corey: Not dead yet. So, we take what we can get sometimes. You folks have just come out with the “2022 Sysdig Cloud-Native Threat Report”, which on one hand, it feels like it's kind of a wordy title, on the other it actually encompasses everything that it is, and you need every single word of that report. At a very high level, what is that thing?Michael: Sure. So, this is our first threat report we've ever done, and it's kind of a rite of passage, I think for any security company in the space; you have to have a threat report. And the cloud-native part, Sysdig specializes in cloud and containers, so we really wanted to focus in on those areas when we were making this threat report, which talks about, you know, some of the common threats and attacks we were seeing over the past year, and we just wanted to let people know what they are and how they protect themselves.Corey: One thing that I've found about a variety of threat reports is that they tend to excel at living in the fear, uncertainty, and doubt space. And invariably, they paint a very dire picture of the internet about become cascading down. And then at the end, there's always a, “But there is hope. Click here to set up a meeting with us.” It's basically a very thinly- veiled cover around what is fundamentally a fear, uncertainty, and doubt-driven marketing strategy, and then it tries to turn into a sales pitch.This does absolutely none of that. So, I have to ask, did you set out to intentionally make something that added value in that way and have contributed to the body of knowledge, or is it because it's your inaugural report; you didn't realize you were supposed to turn it into a terrible sales pitch.Michael: We definitely went into that on purpose. There's a lot of ways to fix things, especially these days with all the different technologies, so we can easily talk about the solutions without going into specific products. And that's kind of way we went about it. There's a lot of ways to fix each of the things we mentioned in the report. And hopefully, the person reading it finds a good way to do it.Corey: I'd like to unpack a fair bit of what's in the report. And let's be clear, I don't intend to read this report into a microphone; that is generally not a great way of conveying information that I have found. But I want to highlight a few things that leapt out to me that I find interesting. Before I do that, I'm curious to know, most people who write reports, especially ones of this quality, are not sitting there cogitating in their office by themselves, and they set pen to paper and emerge four days later with the finished treatise. There's a team involved, there's more than one person that weighs in. Who was behind this?Michael: Yeah, it was a pretty big team effort across several departments. But mostly, it came to the Sysdig threat research team. It's about ten people right now. It's grown quite a bit through the past year. And, you know, it's made up of all sorts of backgrounds and expertise.So, we have machine learning people, data scientists, data engineers, former pen-testers and red team, a lot of blue team people, people from the NSA, people from other government agencies as well. And we're also a global research team, so we have people in Europe and North America working on all of this. So, we try to get perspectives on how these threats are viewed by multiple areas, not just Silicon Valley, and express fixes that appeal to them, too.Corey: Your executive summary on this report starts off with a cloud adversary analysis of TeamTNT. And my initial throwaway joke on that, it was going to be, “Oh, when you start off talking about any entity that isn't you folks, they must have gotten the platinum sponsorship package.” But then I read the rest of that paragraph and I realized that wait a minute, this is actually interesting and germane to something that I see an awful lot. Specifically, they are—and please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this; you are definitionally the expert whereas I am, obviously the peanut gallery—but you talk about TeamTNT as being a threat actor that focuses on targeting the cloud via cryptojacking, which is a fanciful word for, “Okay, I've gotten access to your cloud environment; what am I going to do with it? Mine Bitcoin and other various cryptocurrencies.” Is that generally accurate or have I missed the boat somewhere fierce on that? Which is entirely possible.Michael: That's pretty accurate. We also think it just one person, actually, and they are very prolific. So, they were pretty hard to get that platinum support package because they are everywhere. And even though it's one person, they can do a lot of damage, especially with all the automation people can make now, one person can appear like a dozen.Corey: There was an old t-shirt that basically encompassed everything that was wrong with the culture of the sysadmin world back in the naughts, that said, “Go away, or I will replace you with a very small shell script.” But, on some level, you can get a surprising amount of work done on computers, just with things like for loops and whatnot. What I found interesting was that you have put numbers and data behind something that I've always taken for granted and just implicitly assumed that everyone knew. This is a common failure mode that we all have. We all have blind spots where we assume the things that we spend our time on is easy and the stuff that other people are good at and you're not good at, those are the hard things.It has always been intuitively obvious to me as a cloud economist, that when you wind up spending $10,000 in cloud resources to mine cryptocurrency, it does not generate $10,000 of cryptocurrency on the other end. In fact, the line I've been using for years is that it's totally economical to mine Bitcoin in the cloud; the only trick is you have to do it in someone else's account. And you've taken that joke and turned it into data. Something that you found was that in one case, that you were able to attribute $8,100 of cryptocurrency that were generated by stealing $430,000 of cloud resources to do it. And oh, my God, we now have a number and a ratio, and I can talk intelligently and sound four times smarter. So, ignoring anything else in this entire report, congratulations, you have successfully turned this into what is beginning to become a talking point of mine. Value unlocked. Good work. Tell me more.Michael: Oh, thank you. Cryptomining is kind of like viruses in the old on-prem environment. Normally it just cleaned up and never thought of again; the antivirus software does its thing, life goes on. And I think cryptominers are kind of treated like that. Oh, there's a miner; let's rebuild the instance or bring a new container online or something like that.So, it's often considered a nuisance rather than a serious threat. It also doesn't have the, you know, the dangerous ransomware connotation to it. So, a lot of people generally just think of as a nuisance, as I said. So, what we wanted to show was, it's not really a nuisance and it can cost you a lot of money if you don't take it seriously. And what we found was for every dollar that they make, it costs you $53. And, you know, as you mentioned, it really puts it into view of what it could cost you by not taking it seriously. And that number can scale very quickly, just like your cloud environment can scale very quickly.Corey: They say this cloud scales infinitely and that is not true. First, tried it; didn't work. Secondly, it scales, but there is an inherent limit, which is your budget, on some level. I promise they can add hard drives to S3 faster than you can stuff data into it. I've checked.One thing that I've seen recently was—speaking of S3—I had someone reach out in what I will charitably refer to as a blind panic because they were using AWS to do something. Their bill was largely $4 a month in S3 charges. Very reasonable. That carries us surprisingly far. And then they had a credential leak and they had a threat actor spin up all the Lambda functions in all of the regions, and it went from $4 a month to $60,000 a day and it wasn't caught for six days.And then AWS as they tend to do, very straight-faced, says, “Yeah, we would like our $360,000, please.” At which point, people start panicking because a lot of the people who experience this are not themselves sophisticated customers; they're students, they're learning how this stuff works. And when I'm paying $4 a month for something, it is logical and intuitive for me to think that, well, if I wind up being sloppy with their credentials, they could run that bill up to possibly $25 a month and that wouldn't be great, so I should keep an eye on it. Yeah, you dropped a whole bunch of zeros off the end of that. Here you go. And as AWS spins up more and more regions and as they spin up more and more services, the ability to exploit this becomes greater and greater. This problem is not getting better, it is only getting worse, by a lot.Michael: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I feel really bad for those students who do have that happen to them. I've heard on occasion that the cloud providers will forgive some debts, but there's no guarantee of that happening, from breaches. And you know, the more that breaches happen, the less likely they are going to forgive it because they still to pay for it; someone's paying for it in the end. And if you don't improve and fix your environment and it keeps happening, one day, they're just going to stick you with the bill.Corey: To my understanding, they've always done the right thing when I've highlighted something to them. I don't have intimate visibility into it and of course, they have a threat model themselves of, okay, I'm going to spin up a bunch of stuff, mine cryptocurrency for a month—cry and scream and pretend I got hacked because fraud is very much a thing, there is a financial incentive attached to this—and they mostly seem to get it right. But the danger that I see for the cloud provider is not that they're going to stop being nice and giving money away, but assume you're a student who just winds up getting more than your entire college tuition as a surprise bill for this month from a cloud provider. Even assuming at the end of that everything gets wiped and you don't owe anything. I don't know about you, but I've never used that cloud provider again because I've just gotten a firsthand lesson in exactly what those risks are, it's bad for the brand.Michael: Yeah, it really does scare people off of that. Now, some cloud providers try to offer more proactive protections against this, try to shut down instances really quick. And you know, you can take advantage of limits and other things, but they don't make that really easy to do. And setting those up is critical for everybody.Corey: The one cloud provider that I've seen get this right, of all things, has been Oracle Cloud, where they have an always free tier. Until you affirmatively upgrade your account to chargeable, they will not charge you a penny. And I have experimented with this extensively, and they're right, they will not charge you a penny. They do have warnings plastered on the site, as they should, that until you upgrade your account, do understand that if you exceed a threshold, we will stop serving traffic, we will stop servicing your workload. And yeah, for a student learner, that's absolutely what I want. For a big enterprise gearing up for a giant Superbowl commercial or whatnot, it's, “Yeah, don't care what it costs, just make sure you continue serving traffic. We don't get a redo on this.” And without understanding exactly which profile of given customer falls into, whenever the cloud provider tries to make an assumption and a default in either direction, they're wrong.Michael: Yeah, I'm surprised that Oracle Cloud of all clouds. It's good to hear that they actually have a free tier. Now, we've seen attackers have used free tiers quite a bit. It all depends on how people set it up. And it's actually a little outside the threat report, but the CI/CD pipelines in DevOps, anywhere there's free compute, attackers will try to get their miners in because it's all about scale and not quality.Corey: Well, that is something I'd be curious to know. Because you talk about focusing specifically on cloud and containers as a company, which puts you in a position to be authoritative on this. That Lambda story that I mentioned about, surprise $60,000 a day in cryptomining, what struck me about that and caught me by surprise was not what I think would catch most people who didn't swim in this world by surprise of, “You can spend that much?” In my case, what I'm wondering about is, well hang on a minute. I did an article a year or two ago, “17 Ways to Run Containers On AWS” and listed 17 AWS services that you could use to run containers.And a few months later, I wrote another article called “17 More Ways to Run Containers On AWS.” And people thought I was belaboring the point and making a silly joke, and on some level, of course I was. But I was also highlighting very clearly that every one of those containers running in a service could be mining cryptocurrency. So, if you get access to someone else's AWS account, when you see those breaches happen, are people using just the one or two services they have things ready to go for, or are they proliferating as many containers as they can through every service that borderline supports it?Michael: From what we've seen, they usually just go after a compute, like EC2 for example, as it's most well understood, it gets the job done, it's very easy to use, and then get your miner set up. So, if they happen to compromise your credentials versus the other method that cryptominers or cryptojackers do is exploitation, then they'll try to spread throughout their all their EC2 they can and spin up as much as they can. But the other interesting thing is if they get into your system, maybe via an exploit or some other misconfiguration, they'll look for the IAM metadata service as soon as they get in, to try to get your IAM credentials and see if they can leverage them to also spin up things through the API. So, they'll spin up on the thing they compromised and then actively look for other ways to get even more.Corey: Restricting the permissions that anything has in your cloud environment is important. I mean, from my perspective, if I were to have my account breached, yes, they're going to cost me a giant pile of money, but I know the magic incantations to say to AWS and worst case, everyone has a pet or something they don't want to see unfortunate things happen to, so they'll waive my fee; that's fine. The bigger concern I've got—in seriousness—I think most companies do is the data. It is the access to things in the account. In my case, I have a number of my clients' AWS bills, given that that is what they pay me to work on.And I'm not trying to undersell the value of security here, but on the plus side that helps me sleep at night, that's only money. There are datasets that are far more damaging and valuable about that. The worst sleep I ever had in my career came during a very brief stint I had about 12 years ago when I was the director of TechOps at Grindr, the gay dating site. At that scenario, if that data had been breached, people could very well have died. They live in countries where that winds up not being something that is allowed, or their family now winds up shunning them and whatnot. And that's the stuff that keeps me up at night. Compared to that, it's, “Well, you cost us some money and embarrassed a company.” It doesn't really rank on the same scale to me.Michael: Yeah. I guess the interesting part is, data requires a lot of work to do something with for a lot of attackers. Like, it may be opportunistic and come across interesting data, but they need to do something with it, there's a lot more risk once they start trying to sell the data, or like you said, if it turns into something very unfortunate, then there's a lot more risk from law enforcement coming after them. Whereas with cryptomining, there's very little risk from being chased down by the authorities. Like you said, people, they rebuild things and ask AWS for credit, or whoever, and move on with their lives. So, that's one reason I think cryptomining is so popular among threat actors right now. It's just the low risk compared to other ways of doing things.Corey: It feels like it's a nuisance. One thing that I was dreading when I got this copy of the report was that there was going to be what I see so often, which is let's talk about ransomware in the cloud, where people talk about encrypting data in S3 buckets and sneakily polluting the backups that go into different accounts and how your air -gapping and the rest. And I don't see that in the wild. I see that in the fear-driven marketing from companies that have a thing that they say will fix that, but in practice, when you hear about ransomware attacks, it's much more frequently that it is their corporate network, it is on-premises environments, it is servers, perhaps running in AWS, but they're being treated like servers would be on-prem, and that is what winds up getting encrypted. I just don't see the attacks that everyone is warning about. But again, I am not primarily in the security space. What do you see in that area?Michael: You're absolutely right. Like we don't see that at all, either. It's certainly theoretically possible and it may have happened, but there just doesn't seem to be that appetite to do that. Now, the reasoning? I'm not a hundred percent sure why, but I think it's easier to make money with cryptomining, even with the crypto markets the way they are. It's essentially free money, no expenses on your part.So, maybe they're not looking because again, that requires more effort to understand especially if it's not targeted—what data is important. And then it's not exactly the same method to do the attack. There's versioning, there's all this other hoops you have to jump through to do an extortion attack with buckets and things like that.Corey: Oh, it's high risk and feels dirty, too. Whereas if you're just, I guess, on some level, psychologically, if you're just going to spin up a bunch of coin mining somewhere and then some company finds it and turns it off, whatever. You're not, as in some cases, shaking down a children's hospital. Like that's one of those great, I can't imagine how you deal with that as a human being, but I guess it takes all types. This doesn't get us to sort of the second tentpole of the report that you've put together, specifically around the idea of supply chain attacks against containers. There have been such a tremendous number of think pieces—thought pieces, whatever they're called these days—talking about a software bill of materials and supply chain threats. Break it down for me. What are you seeing?Michael: Sure. So, containers are very fun because, you know, you can define things as code about what gets put on it, and they become so popular that sharing sites have popped up, like Docker Hub and other public registries, where you can easily share your container, it has everything built, set up, so other people can use it. But you know, attackers have kind of taken notice of this, too. Where anything's easy, an attacker will be. So, we've seen a lot of malicious containers be uploaded to these systems.A lot of times, they're just hoping for a developer or user to come along and use them because your Docker Hub does have the official designation, so while they can try to pretend to be like Ubuntu, they won't be the official. But instead, they may try to see theirs and links and things like that to entice people to use theirs instead. And then when they do, it's already pre-loaded with a miner or, you know, other malware. So, we see quite a bit of these containers in Docker Hub. And they're disguised as many different popular packages.They don't stand up to too much scrutiny, but enough that, you know, a casual looker, even Docker file may not see it. So yeah, we see a lot of—and embedded credentials and other big part that we see in these containers. That could be an organizational issue, like just a leaked credential, but you can put malicious credentials into Docker files, to0, like, say an SSH private key that, you know, if they start this up, the attacker can now just log—SSH in. Or other API keys or other AWS changing commands you can put in there. You can put really anything in there, and wherever you load it, it's going to run. So, you have to be really careful.[midroll 00:22:15]Corey: Years ago, I gave a talk at the conference circuit called, “Terrible Ideas in Git” that purported to teach people how to get worked through hilarious examples of misadventure. And the demos that I did on that were, well, this was fun and great, but it was really annoying resetting them every time I gave the talk, so I stuffed them all into a Docker image and then pushed that up to Docker Hub. Great. It was awesome. I didn't publicize it and talk about it, but I also just left it as an open repository there because what are you going to do? It's just a few directories in the route that have very specific contrived scenarios with Git, set up and ready to go.There's nothing sensitive there. And the thing is called, “Terrible Ideas.” And I just kept watching the download numbers continue to increment week over week, and I took it down because it's, I don't know what people are going to do with that. Like, you see something on there and it says, “Terrible Ideas.” For all I know, some bank is like, “And that's what we're running in production now.” So, who knows?But the idea o—not that there was necessarily anything wrong with that, but the fact that there's this theoretical possibility someone could use that or put the wrong string in if I give an example, and then wind up running something that is fairly compromisable in a serious environment was just something I didn't want to be a part of. And you see that again, and again, and again. This idea of what Docker unlocks is amazing, but there's such a tremendous risk to it. I mean, I've never understood 15 years ago, how you're going to go and spin up a Linux server on top of EC2 and just grab a community AMI and use that. It's yeah, I used to take provisioning hardware very seriously to make sure that I wasn't inadvertently using something compromised. Here, it's like, “Oh, just grab whatever seems plausible from the catalog and go ahead and run that.” But it feels like there's so much of that, turtles all the way down.Michael: Yeah. And I mean, even if you've looked at the Docker file, with all the dependencies of the things you download, it really gets to be difficult. So, I mean, to protect yourself, it really becomes about, like, you know, you can do the static scanning of it, looking for bad strings in it or bad version numbers for vulnerabilities, but it really comes down to runtime analysis. So, when you start to Docker container, you really need the tools to have visibility to what's going on in the container. That's the only real way to know if it's safe or not in the end because you can't eyeball it and really see all that, and there could be a binary assortment of layers, too, that'll get run and things like that.Corey: Hell is other people's workflows, as I'm sure everyone's experienced themselves, but one of mine has always been that if I'm doing something as a proof of concept to build it up on a developer box—and I do keep my developer environments for these sorts of things isolated—I will absolutely go and grab something that is plausible- looking from Docker Hub as I go down that process. But when it comes time to wind up putting it into a production environment, okay, now we're going to build our own resources. Yeah, I'm sure the Postgres container or whatever it is that you're using is probably fine, but just so I can sleep at night, I'm going to take the public Docker file they have, and I'm going to go ahead and build that myself. And I feel better about doing that rather than trusting some rando user out there and whatever it is that they've put up there. Which on the one hand feels like a somewhat responsible thing to do, but on the other, it feels like I'm only fooling myself because some rando putting things up there is kind of what the entire open-source world is, to a point.Michael: Yeah, that's very true. At some point, you have to trust some product or some foundation to have done the right thing. But what's also true about containers is they're attacked and use for attacks, but they're also used to conduct attacks quite a bit. And we saw a lot of that with the Russian-Ukrainian conflict this year. Containers were released that were preloaded with denial-of-service software that automatically collected target lists from, I think, GitHub they were hosted on.So, all a user to get involved had to do was really just get the container and run it. That's it. And now they're participating in this cyberwar kind of activity. And they could also use this to put on a botnet or if they compromise an organization, they could spin up at all these instances with that Docker container on it. And now that company is implicated in that cyber war. So, they can also be used for evil.Corey: This gets to the third point of your report: “Geopolitical conflict influences attacker behaviors.” Something that happened in the early days of the Russian invasion was that a bunch of open-source maintainers would wind up either disabling what their software did or subverting it into something actively harmful if it detected it was running in the Russian language and/or in a Russian timezone. And I understand the desire to do that, truly I do. I am no Russian apologist. Let's be clear.But the counterpoint to that as well is that, well, to make a reference I made earlier, Russia has children's hospitals, too, and you don't necessarily know the impact of fallout like that, not to mention that you have completely made it untenable to use anything you're doing for a regulated industry or anyone else who gets caught in that and discovers that is now in their production environment. It really sets a lot of stuff back. I've never been a believer in that particular form of vigilantism, for lack of a better term. I'm not sure that I have a better answer, let's be clear. I just, I always knew that, on some level, the risk of opening that Pandora's box were significant.Michael: Yeah. Even if you're doing it for the right reasons. It still erodes trust.Corey: Yeah.Michael: Especially it erodes trust throughout open-source. Like, not just the one project because you'll start thinking, “Oh, how many other projects might do this?” And—Corey: Wait, maybe those dirty hippies did something in our—like, I don't know, they've let those people anywhere near this operating system Linux thing that we use? I don't think they would have done that. Red Hat seems trustworthy and reliable. And it's yo, [laugh] someone needs to crack open a history book, on some level. It's a sticky situation.I do want to call out something here that it might be easy to get the wrong idea from the summary that we just gave. Very few things wind up raising my hackles quite like companies using tragedy to wind up shilling whatever it is they're trying to sell. And I'll admit when I first got this report, and I saw, “Oh, you're talking about geopolitical conflict, great.” I'm not super proud of this, but I was prepared to read you the riot act, more or less when I inevitably got to that. And I never did. Nothing in this entire report even hints in that direction.Michael: Was it you never got to it, or, uh—Corey: Oh, no. I've read the whole thing, let's be clear. You're not using that to sell things in the way that I was afraid you were. And simultaneously I want to say—I want to just point that out because that is laudable. At the same time, I am deeply and bitterly resentful that that even is laudable. That should be the common state.Capitalizing on tragedy is just not something that ever leaves any customer feeling good about one of their vendors, and you've stayed away from that. I just want to call that out is doing the right thing.Michael: Thank you. Yeah, it was actually a big topic about how we should broach this. But we have a good data point on right after it started, there was a huge spike in denial-of-service installs. And that we have a bunch of data collection technology, honeypots and other things, and we saw the day after cryptomining started going down and denial-of-service installs started going up. So, it was just interesting how that community changed their behaviors, at least for a time, to participate in whatever you want to call it, the hacktivism.Over time, though, it kind of has gone back to the norm where maybe they've gotten bored or something or, you know, run out of funds, but they're starting cryptomining again. But these events can cause big changes in the hacktivism community. And like I mentioned, it's very easy to get involved. We saw over 150,000 downloads of those pre-canned denial-of-service containers, so it's definitely something that a lot of people participated in.Corey: It's a truism that war drives innovation and different ways of thinking about things. It's a driver of progress, which says something deeply troubling about us. But it's also clear that it serves as a driver for change, even in this space, where we start to see different applications of things, we see different threat patterns start to emerge. And one thing I do want to call out here that I think often gets overlooked in the larger ecosystem and industry as a whole is, “Well, no one's going to bother to hack my nonsense. I don't have anything interesting for them to look at.”And it's, on some level, an awful lot of people running tools like this aren't sophisticated enough themselves to determine that. And combined with your first point in the report as well that, well, you have an AWS account, don't you? Congratulations. You suddenly have enormous piles of money—from their perspective—sitting there relatively unguarded. Yay. Security has now become everyone's problem, once again.Michael: Right. And it's just easier now. It means, it was always everyone's problem, but now it's even easier for attackers to leverage almost everybody. Like before, you had to get something on your PC. You had to download something. Now, your search of GitHub can find API keys, and then that's it, you know? Things like that will make it game over or your account gets compromised and big bills get run up. And yeah, it's very easy for all that to happen.Corey: Ugh. I do want to ask at some point, and I know you asked me not to do it, but I'm going to do it anyway because I have this sneaking suspicion that given that you've spent this much time on studying this problem space, that you probably, as a company, have some answers around how to address the pain that lives in these problems. What exactly, at a high level, is it that Sysdig does? Like, how would you describe that in an elevator without sabotaging the elevator for 45 minutes to explain it in depth to someone?Michael: So, I would describe it as threat detection and response for cloud containers and workloads in general. And all the other kind of acronyms for cloud, like CSPM, CIEM.Corey: They're inventing new and exciting acronyms all the time. And I honestly at this point, I want to have almost an acronym challenge of, “Is this a cybersecurity acronym or is it an audio cable? Which is it?” Because it winds up going down that path, super easily. I was at RSA walking the expo floor and I had I think 15 different companies I counted pitching XDR, without a single one bothering to explain what that meant. Okay, I guess it's just the thing we've all decided we need. It feels like security people selling to security people, on some level.Michael: I was a Gartner analyst.Corey: Yeah. Oh… that would do it then. Terrific. So, it's partially your fault, then?Michael: No. I was going to say, don't know what it means either.Corey: Yeah.Michael: So, I have no idea [laugh]. I couldn't tell you.Corey: I'm only half kidding when I say in many cases, from the vendor perspective, it seems like what it means is whatever it is they're trying to shoehorn the thing that they built into filling. It's kind of like observability. Observability means what we've been doing for ten years already, just repurposed to catch the next hype wave.Michael: Yeah. The only thing I really understand is: detection and response is a very clear detect things and respond to things. So, that's a lot of what we do.Corey: It's got to beat the default detection mechanism for an awful lot of companies who in years past have found out that they have gotten breached in the headline of The New York Times. Like it's always fun when that, “Wait, what? What? That's u—what? How did we not know this was coming?”It's when a third party tells you that you've been breached, it's never as positive—not that it's a positive experience anyway—than discovering yourself internally. And this stuff is complicated, the entire space is fraught, and it always feels like no matter how far you go, you could always go further, but left to its inevitable conclusion, you'll burn through the entire company budget purely on security without advancing the other things that company does.Michael: Yeah.Corey: It's a balance.Michael: It's tough because it's a lot to know in the security discipline, so you have to balance how much you're spending and how much your people actually know and can use the things you've spent money on.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to go through the findings of the report for me. I had skimmed it before we spoke, but talking to you about this in significantly more depth, every time I start going to cite something from it, I find myself coming away more impressed. This is now actively going on my calendar to see what the 2023 version looks like. Congratulations, you've gotten me hooked. If people want to download a copy of the report for themselves, where should they go to do that?Michael: They could just go to sysdig.com/threatreport. There's no email blocking or gating, so you just download it.Corey: I'm sure someone in your marketing team is twitching at that. Like, why can't we wind up using this as a lead magnet? But ugh. I look at this and my default is, oh, wow, you definitely understand your target market. Because we all hate that stuff. Every mandatory field you put on those things makes it less likely I'm going to download something here. Click it and have a copy that's awesome.Michael: Yep. And thank you for having me. It's a lot of fun.Corey: No, thank you for coming. Thanks for taking so much time to go through this, and thanks for keeping it to the high road, which I did not expect to discover because no one ever seems to. Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it.Michael: Thanks. Have a great day.Corey: Mike Clark, Director of Threat Research at Sysdig. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment pointing out that I didn't disclose the biggest security risk at all to your AWS bill, an AWS Solutions Architect who is working on commission.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

As a lawyer in Nashville, Tennessee, Brian Boyd helps clients with real estate, construction, and business matters. It is with that knowledge that he and his wife, Dawn, have grown their portfolio to a six-figure income. Brian earned his BA from the University of Tennessee—Chattanooga, a JD from Samford University's Cumberland School of Law, and an LLM in Taxation from Georgetown University Law Center. When not practicing law or working with Dawn on their real estate ventures, Brian can be found on the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu mats at his local gym. His newest book is Replace Your Income: A Lawyer's Guide to Finding, Funding, and Managing Real Estate Investments Today Brian talks about corporate structures, how they differ, and what you could be doing to protect your assets. Episode Links: www.briantboyd.com. www.boydwills.com --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The remote real estate investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's going on everyone? Welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum. And today with me, I have Brian Boyd, who is a legal tax professional as well as an author and active investor. He's gonna be talking to us today about what we need to do to protect our rear ends. So let's get into it.   Brian, what's going on, man, thanks so much for taking the time to hang out with me today. I appreciate you.   Brian: Hey, Michael, thanks for having me today. I'm glad to be here.   Michael: I am super excited to chat with you. Because you are a legal attorney and investor something we don't often see too much of.   Brian: Yeah, I am. I started out in Washington, DC as a tax attorney at a company called Ernst and Young. And over the years, I got into real estate and investing because I was representing a lot of contractors and developers and started looking at the way they were doing their businesses. And from there, I started tweaking their models trying to figure out well, how can I make this a little bit more tax efficient, create a little bit more loss with a lot more cash flow. And so that's when my wife and I in 2017, decided to get into real estate investing on our own. And now we're up to 25 doors, and we're cash flowing just fine. You know, in, in fact, maybe in the next year or two, she could step away from her full time job. And we'll just manage real estate.   Michael: Man, I love it. And so is your background in tax or on the legal side of things, or both.   Brian: So I have a JD and I have an LLM, which is a master's degree in, in law. But It specializes in tax. So yes, I do corporate formations. I do business transactions, helping people the real estate, anything and everything to do with businesses, individuals and their finances. In real estate investing. That's what I do. So there was a time I used to go to court, but I don't go to court anymore. My partner goes to court, and I just do business transactions and real estate investing.   Michael: Man, I love it. And before we get everyone's hopes up, you are located out in Tennessee. But is that the only state in which you practice in? Or can you help folks all over the place?   Brian: So I am licensed in Tennessee and Vermont of all places. My partner is licensed in Tennessee in Maryland. But if it has to do with federal law, I can work all over the country. However, if people are asking specifically about California law, I'm not your guy, call a local attorney speak to a local attorney. But from a structural standpoint, I can give you the basics and kind of point you in the right direction. But unless you're in one of those jurisdictions, and you want me to practice in those jurisdictions, those are the jurisdictions I'm limited to.   Michael: Okay. Well, let's talk about that for a minute. Because I think we were chatting before the show, we hit record, and there are a ton of Californians physically moving out to Tennessee. But my guess is they're probably a lot of Californians investing out in Tennessee. And so for those folks that maybe live outside Tennessee, but are investing in Tennessee, in terms of structuring their team around them, should they be thinking about having a local attorney local to them, as well as someone such as yourself or a an attorney located where the property is? How should you be thinking about that?   Brian: No, that's great question. I actually had an attorney contact me a few weeks ago and he is a he's in Chico, California. He called me and said, Hey, I properties in Tennessee. Can you help me on what? Yeah, I'll absolutely be happy to help you. And so what we did is we structured a Tennessee holding company with a wholly owned Tennessee subsidiary. And even though he's out there, he owns the LLC here. And as he invests around the country, like Texas, or Florida, or you know, any of the other states, you know, we'll set up other holding companies to represent those entities. But he can stay in California and own these companies, as long as they're structured properly, to pass through to him over in California.   Michael: Okay, awesome. Well, Brian, give us like, the quick and dirty if there is such a thing of what investors need to know, because I think a lot of our investors are starting to scale their portfolios that got a couple of deals under their belt, and they're really looking for some asset protection. What are some things they need to be aware of and where have you seen people go wrong?   Brian: So I have seen people go wrong with a few misnomers about what they believe series LLCs are and what land trusts are. So a series LLC, I know that everybody hears therefore multiple properties. and they are. But they also don't understand that when you have a series LLC, you have to have a separate bank account, a separate tax ID separate books, all of that creates an administrative burden on you to keep all these bank accounts separate all these books separate all these tax IDs separate. And typically I see those used more efficiently if you're a developer, that way you can develop a series, sell it, and not worry about it. Again, if you're holding your assets in series LLC, and you have series one through 10, for example, that's 10 tax IDs, that's 10 sets of books, that's 10 book keeper entries every month for those separate things.   Whereas if you just have an LLC, and you treat it properly, so your corporate veil cannot be pierced. And a corporate veil is the corporate formalities that you have to adhere to. So your corporate structure is honored by the courts. And typically, here are the things that people get popped for, they'll pay for their groceries out of their LLC, they'll pay their own mortgage out of their LLC, or they'll just treat their LLC like a checkbook. And that's not what it's for. It is a standalone entity, and it has to be treated and respected that way.   So if you don't do those things, you're fine. Your one LLC is going to handle it just fine. For example, my wife and I have, we have a parent company, and that parent company has two LLC is underneath it. And one LLC is for our portfolio over here. And the other LLC is for that portfolio over here. And it all flows up into the holding company, which is a perfectly fine way to structure your holdings. Yes, it is more filing fees every year, it's three filing fees. But if you're trying to get away from filing fees by creating a series, LLC, you're losing the war to win the battle on a filing fee. Because you're gonna pay all these other expenses for tax IDs and book entries and bank statements. And you're just creating a mess. I would not use series LLCs.   Now as it relates to land trust, we mentioned that earlier, I've heard a lot of people say, Well, I want to use a land trust. Why do you want to use a land trust? I understand that land trust, get it out of your name. And I'm well aware of that. But it doesn't really create any protections like an LLC would. A lot of people say, Well, I want the anonymity of an LLC, well, you can have the anonymity, you know, of an LLC without using Land Trust. Many states, Wyoming, Tennessee, Texas, you can file your LLC documents, and your name won't appear anywhere on there as long as you use a registered agent. So you can receive the benefits of the anonymity that comes along with the land trust by simply using the LLC. And you'll get more protections with the LLC.   So I would encourage your listeners to go talk to a lawyer about setting up an LLC to hold their assets, I tend to eschew Land Trust, they don't really provide the protection that people think they do. Unless you're using an irrevocable trust, which is a trust that gets it out of your estate. Not only does it get it out of your estate, it gets it out of your control, and you can't do anything with it, you have to go through a trustee and that trustee is supposed to use their best judgment on what to do for the trust. So think about that, as you move forward. And these these ideas that people read about online, I really like LLCs, my wife and I use them, I encourage my clients to use them. So that's just coming from my experience and what I do day to day in my practice.   Michael: Yeah, from a lot of the folks I've spoken to it sounds like the LLC has come like the Colt 45. For real estate investors. It's reliable, it's standard issue, it can do a lot of the things you need, you need it to do. It's nothing fancy, it just can get the job done.   Brian: No, absolutely. I agree with that statement completely. Okay, cool.   Michael: And, Brian, I think you're a good person to ask because I think we have similar styles of investing and asset protection, which I'm glad to hear. It sounds like you've broken down your portfolios into two separate LLCs What comfort what level of comfort do you have with the size of your portfolio in each LLC, before you want to further break it up or bring additional LLC online?   Brian: And you know, that's a good question. So the way we have treated our LLCs is we go by city, what's in each city. So for example, in Chattanooga, we have an LLC for Chattanooga, and Knoxville and Gatlinburg, we have an LLC for those properties. And in our short term rentals are Montana and the West Tennessee property. We have a separate LLC for that because they're out west So we've kind of broken it down over here, over here and over there. And then we have a parent LLC over top of it. So it's not really a matter of the number of doors or number of properties that have in an LLC. For me, it was geographic, and being able to keep everything separate. And especially for our bookkeeper to know that, hey, these are Chattanooga, they're in that LLC. When you run that k one, it needs to include all these properties. Same over here. So it wasn't a matter of my comfort level with the number of properties, it was just a matter of how can I segregate out all the separate assets that we have and make it user friendly? And also, we're not clumping all of our assets into one LLC. We're spreading them out. But we're doing it geographically.   Michael: Right. Okay. And as you and your wife do start to scale, I mean, is there a number of value that you that you'd see hitting in a particular LLC and saying, oh, that's maybe a little heavy, and that LLC, even if I'm investing in the same geographic area, let me bring online, another LLC, just so I don't have so much value sitting in a singular bucket? Or is not? Is that not really a concern of yours?   Brian: No, that's not really a concern. And here's why it's not a concern. It's because it doesn't really matter how much my entire portfolio is valued at, I'm always going to be deploying that equity somewhere else to get into another deal. And that equity may get deployed into another LLC. So it's not really a matter of oh, we're too heavy in this particular market. If I had 1000 doors in Chattanooga, I would still leave everything in that one LLC.   Michael: Okay, right on. Let's talk about insurance for a minute. Yeah, how much is enough?   Brian: I would tell people, you can't have enough. You can't. So we, we have homeowners insurance on every single property. And then our LLC is have business insurance as well. So we also have business insurance for the LLC. And each property is fully insured. And then we require renters to have homeowners insurance. And on top of that, we require renters to use a product called say Rhino, which is security deposit insurance. So they're not paying us a security deposit that we're holding an escrow for them, they're paying monthly, you know, let's say, you know, a month's rent is $1,000, we typically require two and a half months of rent for a security deposit, will Rhyno only requires them to pay like $8 per 1000. So they would much rather pay 20 to 24 bucks, as opposed to tune $2,500 in security deposit. And over the over the year, it comes out a lot cheaper for them. And we're safe and secure, knowing that as long as they're paying that Rhino insurance. If we have to make a claim, it's there, we've got it, they'll take care of it. So we're we're layering insurance, on insurance, on insurance with every everything we can do. So not only from a corporate standpoint of the company, and the asset, but also the tenants and the security deposit. So that's four layers of insurance.   Michael: Run that by me again, what rino does so so they are basically ensuring the security deposit, then you can make a claim for damage against that security deposit up to that limit.   Brian: Yes, yes, absolutely. That's exactly what they're doing.   Michael: And what about the tenant that goes haywire, decides I'm gonna stop paying rent? I'm not paying this right. No nonsense. So they stopped paying it. They've paid six months to date. How does that work?   Brian: Yeah, we make a claim. Like if, and so we're, we're on top of our rents and our tenants. And it's in our lease that you have to pay all this stuff. And they do. And if they don't we just make a claim immediately.   Michael: And how is your claim experience spin with those folks?   Brian: We haven't had to make a claim yet. But the person Yeah, the person I learned this from, he turned us on to it. And we're like, what, have you ever made a claim? He's like, Yeah, they paid us in four days. I'm like, done. You know,   Michael: Yeah, I'm sold. I gotta go check this company. What's it called?   Brian: Say Rhino. Okay. And, you know, we looked into it. I did my research on it. I think they just did another round of fundraising. And we were sold. We've talked to him, they're easy to work with. They won't reject any of your tenants regardless of credit. As long as you approve them, they're approved. So I take it look, yeah, no longer holding escrow and no longer dealing with security deposits. Let them deal with it. And our experience so far has been great. Let's knock on wood. I don't have to use it. But if I do They'll also pay attorneys fees. So, if you have to let somebody Yeah, go make a claim.   Michael: Man, this podcast just took a wild left turn, but I love it. I've totally here for it.   Brian: Yeah, it's, it's, it's great. And that all goes into ensuring our company, ensuring our tenants making sure everything's taken care of, but also protecting us, because we have put a lot of money a lot of time into these assets. And, you know, we want to protect those assets.   Michael: Yeah, no, it makes total sense. Speaking of Brian, let's talk about this topic for a minute, because you're another good person to ask because you have both short term and long term rentals. Do you see a difference in risk exposure between the two and grouping both asset classes in us in the same LLC?   Brian: No, I don't. The only risk that you run with short term rentals is the seasonal market. In that, you know, we were just talking about Gatlinburg, you know, and people don't realize that the high season is actually summer in Gatlinburg, and it's not winter, which is kind of weird. But yeah, people don't want to go to cabins in the winter. So you've got to be able to weather those low months. But no, I would keep both assets in the same LLC if it's in the same geographic area for me.   Now, that's not to say it's not right for you. And you know, we could also talk about what's best for you. But no, it doesn't matter to me. Because for us, as everything flows up into our tax structure, we've created this, this LLC step tax structure, that everything flows to the top as a pass through. So everything's flown to the top and the parent company pays all the mortgages on everything. So if you have long term rentals that are just, you know, clicking along and you have a week, month, say in Gatlinburg, like we both know that January, February is a week, month in Gatlinburg. You know, there's plenty of money just to go ahead and pay that note. So that's, that's how we do it. And that's what I encourage clients to do. Because you're, you're not really breaching the corporate veil of everything flows up in the parent company's paying for everything. And that's how we structured it. So we're still, you know, adhering to the corporate formalities, respecting those corporate formalities, and everything is paid from the parent company.   Michael: Okay, cool. And then from like a legal risk mitigation perspective, short term rental doesn't sound like it poses any additional risk as compared to a long term rental.   Brian: No, I wouldn't think so. Because the the management companies and I don't know, if you use the management company, but they have them sign all these documents, and they have their own attorneys, or all these waivers in there, and they have to put a security deposit down, you know, to rent the property and, you know, a cleaning deposit. And there's so many different deposits that we tend to get good renters at all the properties.   Michael: Okay. Okay, fantastic. And as someone is thinking about scaling their portfolio into multiple properties, maybe some different asset classes, from an entity structure, is there anything that they should be aware of, or they should be doing differently, if they've already, you know, started using LLC us in the past?   Brian: I would stay with LLCs. If you if you turn to like a C Corp, you get the double layer double layer of tax. If you turn to an S corp, I think you're gonna have to deal with more corporate formalities than you are with an LLC, an LLC is very flexible with what you can do with it. I wouldn't go with a partnership, a general partnership doesn't tend to have the protections nor does a limited liability partnership. You really want the corporate structure of the LLC to stay in place.   So there is no other entity out there that I would encourage people to use other than the LLC. You know, reasonable minds can differ on that. I wrote a chapter in the book on it. But at this point, I am not advising clients to use any other structure other than the LLC, it's very flexible, it's easy to buy and sell assets through and quite frankly, you know, it's it's easily respected in the state of Tennessee and in other states as well, I'm sure you know, LLCs are just common now, you know, as common now as s corpse were in the 60s 70s 80s and up to the 90s.   I would also encourage people to look at Wyoming, Wyoming is on the cutting edge of LLC formation. You know, they recently came out with a new type of LLC that has to do with crypto currencies and blockchain protections. It's it's crazy what they're doing out there. Tennessee follows shortly thereafter and we're all still trying get our heads around it because one, I'm not a crypto guy. I don't know a whole lot about it. But you're starting to deal with like blockchain technology for the way people can vote. It's, it's really fascinating. So I do like Wyoming, I have a Wyoming LLC for one of my assets. And, you know, it's a great state as well.   Michael: I dig it. You mentioned your book, let's talk about that for a minute. What's it called? Where can people find it? And what should they expect to find if they get a   copy?   Brian: Sure. It's, it's called replace your income, a lawyer's guide to finding funding and managing real estate investments. And they can find it on Amazon. Or they can go to www.BrianTBoyd.com. And they can order it through there. So the reason I wrote this book is because I'm having conversations very similar to what we're talking about now, about, how do I form things? What do I form? Why do I form it? Should I put all my assets in one LLC? And this book came about as a compendium of all those conversations I've had over the years with, with clients in real estate investing, how do they get started? How do they find properties? How do they get a loan? You know, what kind of loans are available? What platforms do I use? Do I do I use, Say Rhino? Or do I use Bildium? Or, you know, what's available? How can I do this using technology to leverage efficiency here? And so it's 13 chapters on all of that, including tax benefits, finance tips, how to structure an LLC, what you need to think about when you're putting together an operating agreement? You know, what's the difference between an operating agreement and bylaws? What's the difference between a charter and an articles of organization. I try to break it down. As if I'm talking to my 11 year old son, anybody can understand it. And that's what I want people to know about this book. It's, anybody can invest in real estate. You don't have to be a professional or have, you know, a six figure income, you can be a college student and start house hacking. You can easily you know, get a loan go buy a small two bedroom, one bath apartment somewhere, and get a roommate, move a roommate and then charge them rent and now your house hacking and now your real estate. And so it's possible for everybody.   Michael: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Brian, curveball question here. What's the best compliment you've ever received?   Brian: That I married up?   Michael: Is that Is that a compliment to your wife? Is that a sort of backhanded compliment to you?   Brian: It's probably a backhanded compliment to me, but I I, I could not do what I do without my wife, my wife is, you know, she's an inspiration. She basically runs the entire company. She only lets me talk to people if she can't figure it out. And she is the backbone behind this company. And the funny thing is, I had to drag her into real estate investing, I kept telling her about all the tax benefits of this honey, we can, we can make passive income. And, you know, let me tell you about appreciation and depreciation and how we can, you know, offset some of our income taxes. And she didn't believe me. Now, mind you, I have a master's degree and like, I went to school to do this. And I actually did this for a living for years. And somebody handed her Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and she read it and we're lying in bed when I was like, Hey, did you know that? If we did this, we could pay for a car?   I was like, yeah, she's like, did you know we could write our phone bill up? I'm like, Yeah, I did. She's like, did you know like, we could buy a computer and write it off in one year? I'm like, yes. I've been telling you this. And she doesn't believe it coming from me, the guy who has two graduate degrees and does it for a living, but she believes it from the guy that wrote the book, and I'm like, Okay, well, maybe I need to write a book and she'll she'll listen to, but she still doesn't listen to me. So it is what it is. But she she runs this company. And you know, I couldn't do without her. So when somebody says, I'm married up, I'm like, Yeah, I did. And I'm very lucky I did.   Michael: Amazing. So amazing. Well, Brian, that brings up maybe my last question for you. Before I let you out of here. I think there are a lot of folks probably listening to this that have a partner significant other that aren't interested or aren't involved with a real estate investing, but they would really like them to be or they need them to be. And so you went through this struggle with your wife, how how should people be thinking about bringing their other partner into the fold?   Brian: What I would tell them is you don't have to buy the book. You can look online and see the tax benefits of it. Is that You're going to create positive cash flow. And you're going to create tax deductions that's going to offset not only your cash flow, but your current income tax liability. So if you would like to pay less in income taxes every year, look at real estate investing. Look at it. You know, if you decide not to do and it's not for you, okay, don't do it. There are other things you can invest in. But our Congress has codified our public policy of investing in real estate in our tax code. It is there for you to take advantage of, look, when it comes tax time every year, I always kind of get a little tense, but then I'm like, Okay, well, let's go go buy another property. And then we can cost segregate that property, accelerate the depreciation, and create a larger tax deduction for ourselves, and it's not so painful come tax time.   I'm sure you know that as well that, hey, we can cashflow this property. And, you know, the government actually is encouraging us to go buy real estate, the government is encouraging you to succeed. And that's all I want for anybody is to succeed. You know, this book, I think it's 19.99. It's a lot cheaper than sitting down with me for an hour. And this is everything I've already talked about with people, and I do on a regular basis. So if your spouse is struggling to get on board with your idea of real estate investing, you know, maybe buy the book for them and show them that, hey, this is possible.   You're talking to a guy who worked two jobs to put himself through law school, and then two jobs while I was in graduate school on top of that, and I'm still paying off student loans. But you know what, I paid off a student loan last week. And I did it because we got a refund. That came back to me as a result of the deductions I have through real estate. And the first thing I did with that check was, hey, it's enough. I'm going to pay off that loan. And I did. So it's, it's a real example of how real estate can affect your bottom line.   Michael: I love it. That is awesome. And congrats on getting that loan paid off. That's really exciting.   Brian: Oh, thanks so much.   Michael: You got it. Brian, we're gonna get you out of here. If people want to continue the conversation, learn more about you. What's the best way for them to do so?   Brian: They can get in touch with me at the law firm. The website is www.BoydWills.com. And, you know, you can reach out to me on the Brian T Boyd, Facebook page and on Instagram.   Michael: Okay, amazing. We'll be sure to do that. Brian. Thanks again for sharing some amazing wisdom man. Appreciate you coming on. We'll talk soon.   Brian: Thanks, Michaels. Good to be here.   Michael: You could take care.   All right, everyone. That was our episode. A big thank you to Brian for coming on and sharing some wisdom about LLCs asset protection, tax benefits and some loopholes that we can take advantage of as real estate investors. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing

Neal Bawa is a technologist who is universally known in real estate circles as the Mad Scientist of Multifamily. Besides being one of the most in-demand speakers in commercial real estate, Neal is a data guru, a process freak, and an outsourcing expert. Neal treats his $947 million-dollar portfolio as an ongoing experiment in efficiency and optimization. The Mad Scientist lives by two mantras. His first mantra is that "We can only manage what we can measure". His second mantra is that "Data beats gut feel by a million miles". These mantras and a dozen other disruptive beliefs drive profit for his 700+ investors. In today's episode, Neal gives his take on what is happening in the multi-family market today, the dynamics of the current economy, and what he sees coming over the next year. Episode Links: https://multifamilyu.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/neal-bawa/  --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today joining me again is Neal Bawa, who is the founder of MultifamilyU and a big time multifamily syndicator and Neal is gonna be putting his finger on the pulse of the multifamily market and sharing with us some pretty hard hitting facts. So let's strap in, and let's get into it.   Neal, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with me. I really appreciate you coming on.   Neal: It's great to be back, Michael. Great to be back.   Michael: Thank you, Neal. So last time, on our prior episode, we talked a lot about the single family space and what we saw going on with the market today. I'd love if we could focus our conversation on multifamily, since I know that you do quite a bit in that space as well.   Neal: That's right. I live and breathe multifamily. I started with single family like a lot of you know, the folks that are using your platform did, but multifamily is more scalable. So we currently have about a billion dollars of multifamily 31 projects about 4800 units that are either in construction or in lease up or you know, are stabilize, right. So, you know, a significant portion of them are already stabilized that we're holding, but we're also building a bunch of them, and working on the construction of some of them. So it's you know, what's happening today is so dramatic and so unusual. We you know, one could compare, maybe it's not as dramatic as the first three months of COVID. But otherwise, it's pretty crazy. It's pretty dramatic, dramatic. So it's, it's a great time to talk about multifamily.   Michael: Yeah. So a billion dollars and just turning back the clock a minute. I'm curious, how long did it take you to get to that point from when you started?   Neal: So I you know, ignoring a past company where I was a partner, this particular company has basically gotten to that billion dollars since February 2018. So, so about four and a half years, roughly.   Michael: Holy smoke, I was just interviewing a gentleman who's got a business he wants to scale to a billion dollars over a nine year period. So you mourn cut that in half, that's incredible growth. Neal: Well, keep in mind, I don't want to demean what we've done, because we're very proud of it. But with a when you're purchasing multifamily, the numbers get big, pretty, you know, quickly, right? So 100 unit multifamily today is $20 million. So you do get up there very fast. So I still consider myself to be a mid-level syndicator. There's dozens and dozens and dozens of companies that have bigger portfolios than I do and also, for reference, a billion dollar portfolio usually only equates to about 10 employees in a syndication business. Now, in my case, I have 30 employees, because I've 20 of them in the Philippines and that's helping me scale and so I have 20 full time employees in the Philippines in addition to those 10 people. But I think it's useful to have that frame of reference, I think that you're setting targets in multifamily, a billion is actually not a bad target the set.   Michael: Okay, I will definitely keep that in mind as I as I scale my portfolio. That's, that's really great to know. But Neal, let's transition and I would love to get your thoughts because you are a data scientist, you have so many great analytics to kind of backup your thoughts and opinions and viewpoints. Tell us what like what's going on in the multifamily space as we recording this today late, mid to late September.   Neal: Prices are falling and they will continue to fall. It's a bad time to buy any kind of multifamily in any market in the US and I rarely, I've never actually said that before, maybe with the exception of you know, first month COVID. It's currently right now, no one should be buying anything in the United States. But here's the good news. You don't have to wait very long. The market is now adjusting very rapidly. So I think that I think February March of next year would be a terrific time to buy you know whether it's the one to four units that get listed on Roofstock. By the way, I currently have a triplex listed on roof stock, check it out, it's on Brandon Avenue in Chicago. Whether it's those units or it's the you know, the larger unit we were also selling, you know, a 200 unit property at this point in time not on Roofstock but we're not buying anything. I mean, we've basically told our acquisition people to be pencils down stop looking, stop talking to brokers stop traveling to properties, because we are halfway through a correction. So and I'll explain why. Multifamily is a very different animal from single family. So let's say Michael is buying a single family property and it's next to another one that's identical to it. So there's two row houses and next to it. Well, if somebody last month paid a million dollars for the first one, Michael can get a loan that appraises for 1,000,000 value for his property, he can get that easily, regardless of what really happens in the market, he can get that, you know, and prices take so long to fall that even if the price actually falls, Michael can use a comp from half a mile away to still get that million dollars in value. So the banks on the single family side are really trusting you to do your, you know, to not to overpay, right. So if they're just looking at it, is there a comp that matches it and if it does, we'll just give this guy alone, right and if they feel like the times are hard, they might change their LTVs from 75 to 70 and but that's pretty much as far as the single family market goes. The multifamily market is radically different because a multi one multifamily property is a business. It's like you're buying a Tommy's carwash, or you're buying, you know you're buying a subway or a chain of subways, that's the best way to look at it. It's a business. So your underwriting really doesn't matter. It's the banks underwriting that matters, the bank that's giving you the funding and the moment that we start seeing interest rates go up in the market, the value of the property immediately decreases. Why? Because the bank's underwriting decreases the value of the property, because multifamily properties are based on just two things, something known as a cap rate, which is basically the market's estimate of what the property should be worth and then something else known as net operating income, which is basically rents minus expenses right? Now, the moment and you know, the moment your interest rates increase, and most multifamily today in the US is on floating rate debt. So what that means is, as interest rates go up, your mortgage is going up something a number called DSCR. I won't go into that into detail on that. But there's a number called DSCR, that basically starts to fall. So the higher your mortgage goes, the lower that number is. This means that, you know, let's say I'm a buyer and I'm selling two multi families and they're right next to each other, right. So they're same number of units, same occupancy, same design, so that their net operating income for both of these properties is exactly the same, like down to the last cent right. Now one, let's say one soft sell sold for $30 million. Okay, and I waited a month like 30 days, and the Fed raise interest rates by 100 bits right, but basically 1%. The second property now is worth less. It's worth less, even though there's another property that sold 30 days ago, that's identical with the same number of tenants with the same rents. It's now worth less so multifamily is on a sliding scale and that sliding scale is affected by interest rate hikes much sooner than single family.   Obviously, single family is also affected. We've seen there's 90 bond markets in the US where single family prices are coming down, but they're coming down really slowly, right. Like the I think the average decline in the last six weeks has been 2%, right and I mean, seasonal declines are bigger than 2%. So I don't even know what to make of that 2% yet, but on the multifamily side, depending upon the market, we've seen declines of six to 12% in multifamily prices already and in remember, the Fed only really started raising in May of this year that you know, we're doing this in the middle of September, right. So in five months, the Feds basically raised everything there was a tiny raise back in March, but it was it was so tiny that it really didn't make any difference. So in five months, the Fed has basically affected multifamily prices to the tune of six to 12%. Here's the bad news. That's not the end, because everybody including yours truly was thinking that when last week's inflation report came out, we would see a downward trend, and the Fed would give us some guidance that yeah, okay, well, instead of raising by 75 bits this week that there's a Fed meeting going on this week, we're gonna raise by 50 and then we'll see what happens in November, maybe we'll raise it by 25 and we were like, okay, if that happens, great. You know, where the Fed funds rate is at 2.25. They raised by 50 pips this week, then they raised about 25 pips in November at 3%. We're done with the Fed funds rate, and that means that multifamily doesn't have to drop any further. Well, it sucks but that didn't happen. Inflation didn't drop and so now the Fed this week is definitely going to raise interest rates by 75 bits, maybe they might even do it by 100 and that basically will spike up interest rates by 100 points immediately and then they'll have to do 75 points in November and maybe another 50 points or 25 points in December. So because of that bad news, we now know that we're midway through this drop in multifamily, right. So we think that there's another five or 6% drop coming by February or March. Is this bad? No. If you're not, you know, if you're not buying anything, just wait for five or six months and you get five or 6%. You know, you know benefits. What the heck is wrong about that because the market isn't bad. Rents haven't decreased, rents are continuing to increase nationwide for both single family and multifamily. So this isn't like 2008, where there's 5 million empty homes show me empty homes. I mean, there really aren't any, the market is an amazing occupancy levels. This is just one single factor, the cost of debt. So, if you can, in February, buy a property for 5%, cheaper, you will have had two advantages. Number one, the next six months, you're not paying for that high cost of debt, right? Number two, you would, you know, say 5%. So your property is cheaper, so your debts less right? Number three, you will be within six months of the Fed cutting interest rates. This is the part that most people don't understand. The Federal Reserve is not trying to kill us. They're just doing their job. and their job is to control inflation because if you don't control inflation, really bad shit happens really, really bad should happen. So it's much better to control inflation and obviously the industry that is most affected when you raise interest rates is real estate. No other industry in the US is affected as much as real estate by interest rate hikes. Here's the good news though. If you look at the last 61 years, the Fed raised interest rates nine times sharp up sharp down. So if you buy in Feb, by, I think July or August, the Fed should be dropping interest rates or at least talking about dropping interest rates.   Why is that important? Mortgage rates are guesses. So single family mortgage rates and multifamily mortgage rates in the US are just guesswork where the market tries to guess what the Fed will do next. So if the Fed starts talking about interest rate declines, the market starts to prices in., right and when the Fed says oh, well, we might hold, right the market reacts. So the interest rates basically adjust even before the Fed actually does anything. Perfect example of this: In December, the Fed started talking about interest rate hikes, but didn't actually raise anything. They didn't change anything until March. But in those four months, interest rates went up 100 basis points, they went up an entire 1% because the market was guessing what the Fed would do. So if you buy a multifamily in February and the Feds basically start to lower rates by June, July and August. Now you're in a better environment and as long as your rates are floating, they may float the other way, they may float down and give you a benefit. Where you start high and then you float downwards. That's why I think it makes sense to wait. I've seen a lot of my friends that have larger portfolios and me 2 billion 3 billion send emails to their investor saying we're pencils down. mean, what that means is we're not even underwriting a property we you know, we see 10 properties a day and normally we underwrite three or four of them. Pencils down means you just click the delete button 10 times and you're done with your job for the day.   Michael: Wow, I have so many questions. But I guess the first one is, why are mortgage rate guesses? Why doesn't, why don't banks look at actual data and what the actual borrowing rate is today and not worry about forecasting, but use hindsight. So it takes the guesswork out of it.   Neal: I'm not 100% sure on that. Just so you know, that's what the multifamily market does, right. So the multifamily market has two kinds of loans or I should say three kinds of loans. One of them is the guesswork kind where they try and guess what the Fed is going to do. The other one is one that's based on LIBOR or now called Sofer, these are basically and basically they're based on like treasury bonds and what those numbers are those loans. The moment the Fed hikes the they're going to hike this week, right so that they have a meeting on Wednesday, that we're probably going to hype it by 75 pips. Well, if I have that kind of loan, and I do at some of my properties, guess what, on Thursday, my debt is a lot more expensive. 75 basis points more expensive. So you can see that on the multifamily side. I have never, ever seen a single family loan do that. Every mortgage that I've seen 30 year 15 year five year ARM, they're all guesses forward looking guesses on the Feds rate. Why? I have no freaking clue.   Michael: Okay… We'll have to find someone out there that can give us a definitive answer as to why that is. But I'm also curious now, you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that in the single family space, the banks are kind of depending on us as borrowers to look at the value of the home and determine hey, this is worth or not, which seems very counterintuitive because the majority of multifamily investors that I know, tend to be able to underwrite really, really well, oftentimes better than the bank and so why is the bank's taking the power away from a multifamily investor and really giving it to a single family owner it seems a little bit backwards now.   Neal: Single Family is considered to be a REIT in the United States and single family lending is encouraged by politicians. The overall banking system believes that even if they go a little it over on the single family side, it's not such a bad thing, obviously 2008 was 2007 was different because it was not a real estate failure. It was a failure of lending standards, you know, they were basically giving gardeners million dollar loans, right. So that's not going to end well. So obviously, I don't see any evidence of that kind of stupidity existing today. So there are lending standards, they're pretty tight on those lending standards, they're not going above them, you have to be, you know, a good, good buyer. But beyond that, they as long as there's an appraised property that similar your property will appraise. I am not in favor of this other countries do not do this. Banks underwrite single family loans in other countries, the way that we underwrite multifamily loans. But because of Americans believe that single family is a very key part of their life. We've seen this appraisal based system for the last 30 or 40 years and every once in a while it blows up a bubble just like it did in 2007. So this is a conscious decision that the people that run this company had a country have made, and it has lots and lots of good sides, because it tends to overall increase the prices of single family appraisal, you know, somebody buys for more, the your property is more than next was more next one's more. So generally, it has a beneficial effect on the real estate market. But it also tends to create more bubbles than other countries.   Michael: Interesting. Okay, that's really good insights. So knowing that this isn't the ideal time to buy multifamily. What should people be doing? Is this the time to get educated, is the time to go get capitals is the time you know, what should folks be doing right now?   Neal: Um, I think that I'll give you some ideas, right? So I'll give you kind of a sense of, Well, what would Neal Bawa be doing and what would maybe somebody that's newer than Neal Bawa, you know, doesn't have a lot of multifamily should be doing. So let's just focus on that piece first, right, because what I do is really different from what you should be doing, depending upon where you are in the process. So let's say you're early in the multifamily process, you should be educating your investors, that an extraordinary opportunity is going to present itself most likely in q2 of next year. So that's, you know, April, May, June and that opportunity is there for the first time since the Great Depression, that in the 2008, depression, we have an unusual thing happening, and that will be multifamily prices, not single family, but multifamily prices will be low in q2 next year, compared to let's say, now, or compared to, especially compared to a year ago, they will be low. But the economy will not be anywhere like 2008, it'll still it'll be weak, it will be in a recession. But this is what is known as an artificial recession. So recessions are of two kinds, they come in two flavors. Number one, a recession that is artificially created by the Fed to cool down inflation, and we're about to go into one of those recessions, those tend to be shallow, and the they don't damage the economy in the long term, they create short term damage, and the economy tends to recover fairly quickly from those unemployment doesn't tend to go down too much. You know, so, so go up too much, I should say, you know, so. So we're about to go into one of those and those are the kinds of recessions where you want to buy multifamily. Why because multifamily prices still decrease as interest rates go up, regardless of the strength of the underlying economy. So the underlying economy right now is amazingly strong, right. So with all the hand grenades that the Fed has thrown at us for over five months, they've managed to move the unemployment rate from a historic 3.5% to a historic 3.7%. In five months, they basically haven't managed to dent the unemployment market at all and even that point, 2% increase has largely been because of being because of more people joining the workforce. So post COVID, a lot of people took a year and two years off, a lot of those people are now returning to the to the workforce because they're running out of that stimulus money and that's really what that point to otherwise, when you see like you might see, you know, news about layoffs in the United States, Google it actually look at the statistics. Anytime at any point in the economy, there's layoffs, right. But there haven't been more layoffs than they were six months ago or 12 months ago. It's just the regular layoffs that happened in a normal economy. So there's the economy is extraordinarily strong, and it's going to get dragged into recession simply because the Fed is going to keep throwing hand grenades until the economy goes into recession. But because the underlying economy will stay pretty strong during this shallow recession, you've got a onetime opportunity to buy cheap multifamily because multifamily is just as affected in terms of price. Whether the economy underlying is weak or strong right and you have a quick chance to come out of it and make a lot of money. You should be educating your investors telling them about this opportunity, because I haven't seen that opportunity at all since 2013.   Michael: Interesting.   Neal: That's what you should be doing, telling every investor about this and telling them, I am not buying anything now. Well, you probably know me, you know, don't have the investor money to buy anything now. But what's the harm in saying it's still true?   Michael: Right, right, right. Do you think though, Neal, that at that time, q2, next year, that folks, sellers, owners are going to see that, hey, there's this dip in prices, and therefore, I'm not going to sell because I don't want to sell at a loss I bought 234 or five years ago, I'm going to hold on to my property and no, there will be an inventory shortage, or do you do not foresee that happening?   Neal: There is already an inventory shortage in multifamily prices have still dropped. So the if you look at the inventory available to sell in the multifamily market, it's half of what we had a year ago. But multifamily is different from single family in single family is shortage of inventory tends to drive prices up. With multifamily a shortage of inventory cannot drive prices up because banks are underwriting and they don't give a flying F about what the inventory is. They just care about your debt cost and your debt cost is going up. So when so the key thing is that the single family and multifamily markets are fundamentally different. One of them is just a business and the business is based on its debt cost, and its net operating income and nothing else right. Whereas single family is based on demand. If there's nothing available on your street to sell whatever appears is going to sell for more. That's not how multifamily works. So even right now, supply is pretty low. But that doesn't mean that people are over able to over bid, because if they over bid, guess what happens, Michael, they can't get a loan for that amount and now they have to raise lots of extra equity, which reduces their returns and so a lot of them are like this is painful, we're just going to sit back for three to four months for the market to adjust. Buyers have sellers have to understand that either they just keep their property off the marketplace, which you know, you can do infinite infinitely, you can do it for some amount of time or they will adjust their pricing as they already have. Remember, we've already seen a six to 12% delta in just six months. That's how quickly multifamily reacts and I think that's why I'm in the multifamily business because I liked the logic of that. If your costs are increasing and your profits are decreasing, you should get a lower price, right.   Michael: It's pretty black and white.   Neal: Yeah, yes and that's how it works in multifamily. With single family, you can very often see costs increasing, but because everyone's holding off, nobody's basically selling their property. Everyone's like I've got lots of equity in the property. Now there's no property in the marketplace and even with costs increasing, you can often see increase in pricing. To me that has no logic and so I don't play in in that in that field.   Michael: Yeah, yeah, no, it makes total sense. Neal, let's talk about multifamily loan products and some of the different ones that are out there. You mentioned there's three different loan types. There's the fix for five 710 years, there's the LIBOR, floating rates, what's the third one?   Neal: So the second one is tied to so I'll go back, right. So the first one straightforward, fixed, usually it's five years and 10 year fixed. The second one is tied to a number called LIBOR or LIBOR or so far, these days, it's called Silver. That's kind of the new version of LIBOR. So it's a number and the loans will be, you know, LIBOR plus something LIBOR plus 2.25, right and what that means is the moment the Fed changes, interest rates, that's gonna change, right? So your, the interest rate, you're paying changes the very next day, right, the bank's gonna send you a letter saying, hey, Sofer has changed, therefore your interest rate is now x, right and boom, you're paying more, the third one is available, that is basically a rate that you it's a floating rate. right, but it's not tied to LIBOR. It's not tied to Sofer. It's speculative in some sort of ways. Now, it does tend to go up as interest rates go up, it's really tied to treasuries. Now, US Treasury bonds are a speculative product, right? So today, something happens in China or something happens in Russia, something happens in Ukraine, and all of a sudden, treasury bonds will shoot up or shoot down and so that particular rate is tied to the treasury bonds. So it's speculative and so, you know, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, often these floating off of these floating rates. Now, in the end, the rate is going to end up more or less where the Sofer one is, but it's not immediate. It's not like you don't get that happening the next day after the Fed raises interest rates and I'll tell you why because it's tied to treasuries and treasuries move upward. Are downwards because of 100 different factors. Only one of those are interest rates. So geopolitical situations can often make treasuries move downwards. For example, if the Chinese economy collapses tomorrow and there's blood on the street, treasuries will go downwards, even if the Fed continues to raise interest rates. That makes sense? So, to these sorts of things, these movements can happen so that rates that are tied to the US Treasury bonds tend to move up and down with Treasury bonds. So those are the three kinds.   Michael: Okay, and who is do you think well suited or conversely, not well suited for each type of loan?   Neal: So in terms of who is the lender?   Michael: No, if I'm a buyer, and I'm going to buy … Yeah…   Neal: I think, yeah, yeah. So there's also something known as a bridge rate, when it bridge loans, which no one is getting, I don't know, if a single person that's gotten a bridge loan in the last 30 days, because there are simply very high there are 7%, or even higher in the last, you know, 30 days. So the vast majority of people today that should be buying, let's say you have to buy for whatever reason, you're not stopping you want to buy the key advisors, everyone should today should get a floating rate loan, because if you believe like I do, that the feds job is to raise rates and then drop them and that's what they've done nine times in the last 61 years, then you have to believe at some point in the future 6-12 18, 24 months rates will be lower, because right now, they're pretty darn high, right? So if you believe that locking in your rates doesn't make sense. So the market today, all we have is really Fannie Freddie floating lanes, rate rates, which are similar to what your local bank would provide. So maybe you have a smaller project, you want to go with local bank, those are the same kinds of rates that Fannie Freddie provides, they're probably charging you a quarter point more, but you've got a relationship with them, their points are lower. So lots of people go with local banks. But I think that's the only game in the market for multifamily today and the other thing that's happening in the multifamily market, which is driving prices down as you get multifamily, you might in a really boom time environment, you could get loans that are 75%, loan to value, right and then when the market starts to tighten up, they go to 70. Well, a few weeks ago, most lenders went to 65. So they're giving you a lot less loan to value for the same property forcing you to raise more equity. When you raise more equity, your returns go down, your underwriting suffers. So once again, people are like this not working. I'm not going to make any money. My investors have something known as pref or preferential treatment. So the property underperforms, they're going to make their pref I'm gonna make nothing. So a lot of people are stepping back, pencils down.   Michael: Yeah. Yeah, that makes total sense. That makes total sense.   Neal: And, and none of this has anything to do with a crash, you know, the 2008 scenario. If you believe that that is going to occur in the next 12 months, you're not data driven because the 2008 scenario, if you look at every if you list the top 10 factors that caused it, because it wasn't any one thing, right? None of those factors, not one of those factors exist today, right? What we do have is we pulled demand forward in 2021. In 2021, we basically helicoptered $10 trillion, worldwide, not 10 trillion in the US, luckily, 4 trillion in the US, but 10 trillion worldwide, we helicopter money to people for the first time in modern history. We've done a little bit of it before in 2009. But remember, we were bailing out banks, we were bailing out General Motors, the money wasn't going directly into people's pockets, right. So here we helicopter $10 trillion worldwide, and there's an inflationary effect. It pulled demand forward, everyone, all of a sudden had money, everyone spent money and so we pulled demand forward from let's say, 2023, next year, to 2021 and when we did that, we ended up creating massive amounts of inflation, nothing to do with the economy itself, but it created massive inflation and now we have no choice but to deal with it. I can tell you this if on the one side you said you know will you take 7% single Family interest rates right over the Fed stopping you know their program now just let him stop it I would say don't do that. Hyperinflation is so insanely dangerous, and so insanely destructive, that I would, even though it would really hurt me. I would take 7% interest rates any day, I will take 8% but I wouldn't tell the thread to stop doing what they're doing. 9% inflation if it gets entrenched if everyone believes that two years from now we're going to be at 9% It's astonishingly destructive.   Michael: Wow, wow. Okay and Neal, I'm just curious in based on your research the nine times over the last six to 10 years, the Fed has raised rates and then pretty succinctly thereafter dropped them. How far do you think we're gonna get, how low do you think inch rates are gonna go? I want the Neal Bawa prediction the crystal ball, if you will…   Neal: The federal funds rate, right, the Fed funds rate is what the Fed raises, they don't raise or lower mortgage rates. It's currently at 2.25% and in two days, it's going to go to 3%. We believe currently that the peak is going to be either 3.5 or 3.75% for the Fed funds rate and we think that on the downward path, they'll cut it all the way down to 1.75%. So from their peak, they'll go down 2%. So from the peak, whatever that peak interest rate is, it should go down 2%, right. Now, sometimes they have to go past that 1.75 on the downward leg, because they've hurt the economy so much when they were raising rates that they have to compensate. But we think that the Meet the perfect equilibrium rate for the Fed is around 1.75. Now, in their, in their public, in the public, they talk about it being 2.25. That's where they would like equilibrium to be. But they never seem to ever achieve that. It's always lower than that in a normal market. So they just like to talk it up a little bit to set expectations. So we think that whatever that top interest rate is that you're going to see the highest interest rate, the mortgage rate. Once the Fed is done and brings it down, you should see mortgage rates 2%, lower. So it there's a possibility that sometime in the next 180 days, you'll see a 7% mortgage rate, right. So it might touch that number, but I don't think it goes further beyond that. Okay, but I could be completely wrong, because if the Fed doesn't kill inflation, then all bets are off.   Michael: Right, right. Yeah, this is all under the guise of inflation getting tampered back because of the moves and so just to kind of put that in perspective for people as the end users, 2% reduction of the Fed funds rate will typically constitute a 2% drop on what a borrower is going to pay. So if rates get up to 7%, and then Fed Funds pullback to two by 2%, we would expect mortgage rates to hover on that 5% in the consumer market.   Neal: Yes, exactly four and a half to five and a half going up and down a little bit, you'd remember it's speculative, but you'll have plenty of opportunities to you know, lock something in under 5%. So I think the key message is this, never be afraid of 5%. It's really beyond 5%, that the single family economy starts to you know, it starts to miss heartbeats. That's where it starts to be problematic until five, I've really not seen much of an impact in the marketplace, there'll be a little slow down in price increases and right now a slowdown is healthy, they've gone way too much way too fast and so retrenchment is a very healthy thing.   Michael: Yeah. Okay and just for frame of reference for folks, during COVID, the Fed funds rate was zero, right?   Neal: They dropped it. It was zero, correct. So there were we've gone from zero to 2.25, in five and a half months, right and they were threatening to do it for about four months before that, but they wanted the market to adjust before they actually raise the rate. So we've gone up to 2.25. It was zero for two consecutive years. So two years, in two months, the Fed funds rate was zero.   Michael: And has that ever happened in American history that you know if?   Neal: No, I think that pandemic is very unique. We saw the Fed funds rate fall to about 1% in 2009 2010. But they didn't take it down to zero. So the only time they've ever taken it to zero is this time, I expect all future crisis will go beyond zero now that the eurozone has gone negative and Japan's gone negative. There's no stigma attached to going negative. So I think the next crisis will go below zero.   Michael: Wow and that'll be an interesting time to have a loan tied to LIBOR or Sofer?   Neal: It'll be is it's fantastically interesting. I think what we are, Michael, we're living in the middle of the greatest financial experiment in history and it's, it's an experiment that has no precedent, it doesn't have anything that you can look back to, right. We're doing some truly crazy stuff and we're hoping that it will work out even though we have about three years three or 3000 years of monetary history that says it's never worked out for anyone in the past. So we're just hoping that we are different so right it's all about you know, as long as the musical chairs are going people are you know, people are walking and that's how it's going to be and I don't know when the real challenges happen. I think we're getting closer and closer. I feel like China is just about ready to combust at this point. We'll see what happens.   Michael: Okay, well, I will definitely stay tuned, Neal. This was amazing as always, for people that want to pick your brain more, continue the conversation learn more about you. Where's the best place nice for them to do that,   Neal: Um, you can connect with me simply by typing in my name. I'm the only Neal Bawa on the worldwide web. So just NEAL BAWA, hit enter, there's a couple 100 podcasts that I've appeared on. There's webinars, conference recordings, where I'm on stage. If you'd like to chat with me on LinkedIn, once again, I'm the only Neal Bawa on LinkedIn. So go ahead and connect with me there or go to my website, multifamilyu.com. So that's multifamily, followed by the letter u.com. There's about 30,000 people that attend the webinars that are on that site, we have a new one coming up, which is the impact of interest rates on the economy, and the upcoming recession. So real estate at this point is officially in a recession. The housing market is now in a recession, because it's declining. But I think the rest of the economy is going to follow it and so we have a webinar on that and I think that's going to be in three weeks.   Michael; Okay, fantastic. Well, Neal, thank you. Again, really a pleasure to chat with you and have you on and I'm sure we'll stay in touch.   Neal: Awesome. Thanks for having me on.   Michael: You got it, take care.   All right, everyone. That was our episode a big thank you to Neal for coming on love his data driven approach to his conclusions, which I think we probably all could use another dose of that. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts and we look forward to seeing the next one. Happy investing…

Garrett Sutton is a corporate attorney, asset protection expert and best selling author who has sold more than a million books to guide entrepreneurs and investors. For more than 30 years, Garrett Sutton has run his practice assisting entrepreneurs and real estate investors in protecting their assets and maximizing their financial goals through sound management and asset protection strategies. The companies he founded, Corporate Direct and Sutton Law Center, currently help more than 13,000 clients protect their assets and incorporate their businesses. Garrett also serves as a member of the elite group of “Rich Dad Advisors” for bestselling author Robert Kiyosaki. A number of the books Garrett Sutton has authored are part of the bestselling Rich Dad, Poor Dad wealth-building book series. There are three types of entities most commonly used to own real estate: Limited Liability Company, S Corporation and Limited Partnership. Tune in for todays episode where Garrett provides a quick summary of the best entities for real estate investment. Episode Link: https://corporatedirect.com/contact/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by Garrett Sutton, who is an attorney, investor and author with over 1 million copies of his book sold and today Garrett is gonna be talking to us about all the different entity structures we should be aware of as real estate investors, as well as wherever we might want to think about forming those entities because it plays a big role. So let's get into it.   Garrett, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. I really appreciate you taking the time.   Garrett: Thanks, Michael. It's a pleasure to be with you today.   Michael: No, no, the pleasure is all mine ad I'm super excited to chat with you. I know a little bit about your background and what you do kind of on a day to day basis. But I would love if you could share with our listeners who you are, where you come from, and what is it that you're doing in real estate today?   Garrett: Well, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area like you and I moved to Reno in 1989 and Nevada is a great state for setting up LLCs and corporations along with Wyoming. So I practiced corporate law since 1978, and became associated with Robert Kiyosaki and have written a number of books in the rich dad advisor series and you know, have enjoyed talking to people around the country around the world about how to protect your assets. As you start investing in real estate, you need to think about how you're going to protect that real estate because we live in a very litigious society, people sue each other all the time and unfortunately, they don't teach this in school, you have to get this information on your own and so that's what we provide is the information you need and then we offer a service to help you protect your real estate and brokerage and other assets.   Michael: Love it and just right off the bat, I read one of your books for our Roofstock Academy book club, it was a great read, so I can definitely vouch for it. But what are the books that you've written and then what talk to us about your most recent book?   Garrett: Well, I've written a number of books in the rich dad advisor series, including start your own corporation, that's kind of a foundational one, and then run your own corporation, a lot of my clients and I set up a corporation now what do I do, and you have to run it properly. Then I also did loopholes of real estate, which is kind of the tax and legal strategies for investing in real estate and then the newest book is veil not failed and that deals with the corporate veil, you set up an LLC or a corporation to be protected and too many people do this themselves, Michael, they just set it up online, and they don't realize that there are additional steps you have to take to stay protected and so if you don't want your veil to be pierced where someone can sue the company, there are no assets there. They can go through the veil of the company and get it your personal assets, if you don't want that to happen and that's why you set up an LLC.   Michael: That's the point, yeah…   Garrett: It's that you don't want it to happen. You need to follow these corporate formalities and so that's what the book veil not fail is about kind of stories, horror stories of people who didn't follow the rules and then in the latter part of the book, it shows you how to follow the rules so you can stay protected.   Michael: Yeah, great. and where can people find out if they're interested in picking up a copy?   Garrett: Amazon has it the veil not fail. It was supposed to be out in April, but we have this thing called supply chain problems.   Michael: I've heard of that.   Garrett: Not enough paper out there. So it's not out until November but you can go ahead and preorder it.   Michael: Fantastic. Garrett, let's talk about I think a pretty hotly contested and debated topic in the real estate space and that's LLC versus no LLC, I think and it's tough because we're I'm California based. A lot of our listeners are California based and so to have an LLC in California, you're paying at minimum 800 bucks a year and with today's cash flow based on some real estate investments that can eat in to your investment pretty significantly and so I've heard folks say, you know, forget the LLC, go get umbrella policy, go get high liability limit insurance and call it a day. Don't worry about it. What are some risks pros cons associated with doing that, that you've seen folks run into?   Garrett: You know, there's a whole area of law called Bad Faith litigation, and that's when insurance companies collect the premiums and then find a way not to cover you. All right, the insurance companies have acted in bad faith over the years. errors in collecting the premiums and then having exclusions, that little tiny print that you never read and so, you know, the insurance companies, let's face it, they have an economic incentive to not cover every claim and so they're going to find reasons not to cover you and so I always recommend that people have insurance. That's the first line of defense but these LLCs are the second line of defense, in case the insurance company doesn't cover you, or what about a situation where your insurance is, say 2 million, but the judgment is 4 million, right? I mean, you're personally responsible for that extra 2 million. If the property is in an LLC, they can get what's inside the LLC. But if you've done it, right, if you if your veil is strong, they're not going to be able to reach your personal assets for that extra 2 million. So the idea that you're just going to rely on insurance is, in my opinion, quite naive.   Michael: Yeah. Okay, I love it. I'm of the same opinion. I always, I never like to play my hand, though but I love hearing that because I come from the insurance world. So I know how bad things can go and I also have seen how they're supposed to work. But I think you're totally right, there's totally an economic incentive to not pay claims and the insurance industry as a whole gets kind of wrapped in with the folks that are doing the latter, not the former. So I think it makes a ton of sense. But Garrett talked to me about I've heard this concept, and this idea that, okay, there's this, you can be over insured, there is such a point. Now, if I go get a $10 million umbrella, because I really want to be protected. Does that then put a target on my back for a claim or a plaintiff to say, well, hey, he's got a pretty a pretty massive insurance policy, you know, I was only going to sue him for a million, but let's go after the full 10.   Garrett: Well, I mean, there are a number of factors there. I mean, having enough insurance is not a bad thing. If the claim is a million, it doesn't give the attorney the right to try and collect 10 million, you know, I mean, the claim is a million. So you know, the fact that you have extra insurance isn't a bad thing. The attorneys, you know, what we like to do, what we tell our clients is you want to have enough insurance to cover any claim and so you want to have insurance on the property fire casualty, right? You want to have a personal umbrella policy of insurance covering your home and your autos because I think that's the biggest risk out there is a horrific car wreck, right. Do you need that umbrella policy, a commercial umbrella policy over your various rental properties, maybe I had a part such a policy for a while but here in Reno, it got pretty expensive and so I just have regular insurance on the properties. I have regular insurance for my home and autos and I have an umbrella policy for me personally and so you get in that horrific car wreck. There's enough insurance money for the attorneys to get at. They know how to get at insurance monies, they get a percentage of what they collect and then if everything else is held in LLCs you know you'll have a an LLC if you own a property in Oregon, you have an Oregon LLC on title, you own a property in Utah, you'll have a Utah LLC and tie on title and then those two LLCs are owned by one Wyoming LLC. That's how we like to structure things and the attorneys are going to have a tough time collecting from a Wyoming LLC and so they leave you alone on the LLC. Do you have enough insurance to pay the claim and they'll leave you alone on the LLC is that's how we recommend our clients structure things.   Michael: Okay, and why Wyoming LLC because I know you made a very deliberate point of saying where is formed, what's the point?   Garrett: There are three really good states out there and they compete against each other to be the best which is good for us. Instead of having one federal law that applies to every single state. After the American Revolution, each state wanted their own corporate law and so now we have each state with their own corporate law in Delaware, Wyoming and Nevada compete against each other to be the best. You know, the filing fees every year that come in are pretty good. It helps fund the government. So the reason I like Wyoming over Nevada and Delaware is all three protect the owner of the LLC the charging order is the exclusive remedy and all three, but in Nevada and Delaware the annual fee is $350 a year and in Nevada they list your name on the state website. In Wyoming the annual fee is $62 a year and your name does not show up on the State web site. So Wyoming offers lower cost, better privacy and equal protection. So a lot of our clients set up Wyoming LLCs.   Michael: Yeah, okay, well, I'm sold. So being a California guy, though, this is what I've heard and would love your insights. So I've been told that California they want their piece of the pie. So I've got to register any LLC that I own. In California, because I'm a resident here, I live here, even if it has not doing business, because the way California defines doing business is basically me living here. So if I do I own property in Oregon, I own it with an Oregon LLC, that LLC is owned by the Wyoming LLC, but then I gotta register both of those here in California?   Garrett: No, you raise a very good question. So in our example, we had an Oregon LLC and a Utah LLC and if those were owned by you, as a California resident, we'd have to pay 800, twice, once for Oregon, once for Utah, by having the Wyoming parent there, the Wyoming LLC, and we qualify that one to do business in the State of California. You don't have to pay the 800 for Utah, or Oregon. So that's a way to save the $800 for all the title holding LLCs yes, one of them has to pay right $800 to the state of California and you know, California has gotten a little bit looser, you don't have to pay the 800 the first year, that $800 is a credit on the first $50,000 in profits. So it's not like it's wasted. So, you know, I've had people move from California to Nevada, because of that $800 fee. It's just infuriates people. But there is if you love living in California, there's a way to work it so you have protection, and you don't have to pay $800 for every single LLC you own across the country.   Michael: Okay, fantastic and then in going back to that example, if I've got the I've got to register the Wyoming LLC here in California, do I lose out on any of the anonymity that Wyoming affords me because now it's registered here in California?   Garrett: Yeah, you'd have to list your name in California.   Michael: Okay, all right. Yeah, maybe I will think about moving, who knows? All right, Garrett, in your book, and I want to get really nice here for a minute, because I've got you. You talk about quitclaim deeds versus warranty deeds and I think a lot of our listeners out there have utilized this practice, or have heard about this practice because if you go get a conventional loan from a traditional bank, they won't lend to an LLC. So you go get the name the loan in your name, then transfer the property title to an LLC after the fact, right. In the book, you talk about quitclaim deeds versus a warranty deed, can you give us a little bit of insight into what the difference is and why someone should think about using one versus the other?   Garrett: Well, the warranty deed or the grant deed says, I warrant that I own this property and if I don't, if I transfer it to you, and I don't own it, for some reason, you can sue me. All right. So it's a more powerful deed. The grant deed, the quitclaim deed rather, says, I don't know what I own. But I'm transferring whatever I own to you and the title companies go, well, he quit claimed that property and so that severs the title insurance, right because he didn't know what he had and so we're not going to cover him on it on a quitclaim deed and so and too many people pronounce it quick claim.   Michael: I know, I know.   Garrett: You know, and it's the same deed with a couple of different words in it. But you really always want to use the grant deed or the warranty deed because in many cases, you sever the title insurance, when you use a quitclaim deed, okay, and that's….   Michael: Okay and that's even if you're going from yourself as an individual owner to an LLC that you own 100% of?   Garrett: Right, yeah, just ask for the grant deed. Also, if you're buying property from someone, you want to insist on a grant deed or a warranty deed, because if they don't deliver the title that they've promised they are going to deliver, you have the ability to sue them for failure to perform.   Michael: Okay, super good to know, super good to know, Garrett, as people who are just getting started on their investment journey, I mean, what's the appropriate time to set up an entity because I've heard people say, I'll do it later. I'm too small. It's too expensive. You know, what are your thoughts there?   Garrett: Right at the start, you know, it's just not that expensive. We do not charge a lot of money to set up LLCs for people. It's very affordable. It's a business expense, you get to write it off. But I'll give you an example Michael and I I've told this story 1000 times, but I was in San Francisco at an event and I gave a talk about asset protection and this lady comes up to me and she goes, Well, I'd like to transfer title. I just bought a duplex and I'd like to transfer title into the name of an LLC. I go, that's a great idea. I go in California, it's $800 per year per entity and she goes, oh, I can't afford that and so I'm giving a talk in San Francisco again and she comes up to me and says, I've been sued by a tenant, I'd like to set up that LLC now. Well, it's too late, right? You know, the tenant rented from you, in your individual name, UX, they have a claim against you as an individual, and they can reach all of your personal assets as a result and once you've been sued, or even threatened to be sued, it's too late to set up an LLC. I mean, you can't put a seatbelt on after the accident. Yeah, right. So you really want to set this up right at the start and I've heard CPAs say, oh, well, you know, just set it up when you can and that's bad advice. I mean, you know, the joke I tell is that CPA stands for can't protect assets. It's just, you need to set this stuff up right now.   Michael: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I think it makes a ton of sense and I love the seatbelt analogy. I think that really hits home for a lot of folks. So as someone that's getting more sophisticated with their investing strategy, what like tools or strategies should they be aware of as they're starting to scale up and they're investing?   Garrett: Well, I think having that Wyoming, LLC is the parent holding LLC is a good strategy. We talked about an Oregon LLC and a Utah LLC owned by one Wyoming LLC and that Wyoming LLC is passive. It's not going to hold real estate, it's not going to do business with anyone, because if someone sued the Wyoming LLC, they could get at Wyoming at the Oregon and the Utah LLC. That's what the Wyoming LLC owes. So that Wyoming LLC is passive, it doesn't do business with anyone because we don't ever want it to be sued. All right. So that's a key strategy in protection. Now, if your clients are holding brokerage accounts, right, bank accounts, gold and silver stock brokerage accounts, in their individual name, the same rules apply. If they get sued personally, and they have all these assets at a Charles Schwab account in their individual name, someone can very easily get those and so what we do is we set up an LLC for the paper assets for the bullion and if you get sued, and that horrific car wreck, they're in an LLC, it's much different, much more difficult for an attorney to get at those because the exclusive remedy in Nevada and Wyoming is what's called the charging order and that is a lien on distributions in the state of California if you own an LLC that owns a piece of real estate in California, the law in California is that the car wreck victim can go to court and the judge can say yes, you've been injured, you can set forth the sale of the duplex. All right, and that is not good asset protection. So we like Wyoming and Nevada where the court says, okay, you have a claim. But here's the remedy that we offer in our state, you are entitled to distributions that come through the LLC, you can't barge in and force the sale of the real estate, you have to wait for distributions to come and that's not a good use of the attorneys time. You know, monitoring if distributions are made there on a contingency fee, they get paid when they collect on the insurance monies. So their time is better spent going to the next case that has insurance. So that Wyoming LLC that offers the charging order remedy, not where they can barge in and force the sale of the real estate but where they have to wait and monitor distributions that go to you. It's a much better system for protection than choosing a weak state like California, Utah is a really weak state, New York is weak. So we have to understand which states are strong and weak and structure your plan accordingly.   Michael: Yeah, interesting and Garrett, talking through all this kind of makes me beg the question of in our Utah, Oregon, Wyoming, California LLC example where the Wyoming LLC owns the properties. There is a holding company rather, if the tenant in Oregon falls and Sue's sues the owner. I mean how far Is this go and where is the court date held, how does that all work?   Garrett: Well, if you, if the tenant has is renting from the Oregon LLC, that's or they're in contract with, so the claim would be tenant would sue the Oregon LLC, the lawsuit would take place in Oregon, right? That's where the property is. That's where the tenant fell. The action stays within the Oregon LLC, it doesn't give the tenant a right to go down to the Wyoming LLC, which is the parent, it doesn't give the tenant the right to go over to the Utah LLC. That's a separate business entity. So the key here is that if the tenant sues, you want to get notice of that lawsuit as soon as possible, right, you want to turn over this claim to your insurance company, so that they can assist in settling the case. Too many people, Michael have this idea that if they use a land trust, where no one will ever know who the owner is, and no one will ever serve you is just nonsense because you want to get notice of the lawsuit as soon as possible. In the Land Trust scenario, they say, well, geez, no one will ever find out who the owner is. Well, what happens is they go to court and they say, Look, we tried to sue the land trust, we couldn't find out who the owner was and the court says, okay, well published notice in the newspaper. So they published it little two point type in the newspaper that We're suing the Oregon LLC, or the Oregon Land Trust, rather and you don't get notice of that either. They go back to court and say we tried to serve them, we published notice in the newspaper, and no one ever showed up. The court says default judgment, meaning the tenant has won and then when they're trying to collect, you know, you find out that you've been sued, the insurance company can say, Well, look, you should have had notice of this lawsuit, we could have defended you, but we're not covering you now. You didn't give us the proper notice and so this whole idea of a land trust and privacy is just nonsense. You want to get notice of a lawsuit, so you can turn it over to your insurance company.   Michael: Yeah, that makes no sense. I guess it's kind of like the ostrich approach like if I stick my head in the ground, I don't see it. I don't hear about it. It's not a problem.   Garrett: Yeah, it is a problem.   Michael: Interesting, okay and Garrett talked to us about some of the different entity structures that are out there. Because there's the C Corp, the S Corp, the single member LLC, multi member LLC, like should we as real estate investors be thinking about utilizing some of these different corporate structures or is really the LLC that that kind of 45 of structures.   Garrett: Pretty much the LLC is the way to go, if you're going to hold real estate, you in some cases, the limited partnership can work. If you're syndicating real estate and you want to absolute control, the limited partnership can work, you're not going to hold title to real estate in a C Corp or an S Corp or any other kind of corporation, tax wise, it's just not the best way to go. So the LLC is pretty much I mean, 98% of our formations for real estate are LLCs. The other 2% would be LPS for syndication purposes, or, you know, for estate planning purposes where mom and dad with an LP, the general partners, which would be another LLC can own as little as 2% and have absolute control over the property. So mom and dad through their LLC have 2% ownership, the limited partnership has 98% ownership owned by the kids as limited partners, and the kids can't force mom and dad to sell the property. So there are cases where the limited partnership works but in the vast majority of cases, it's the LLC that is on title to the real estate.   Michael: Okay. Good to know, good to know. I had another question for it and it totally escaped my mind.   Garrett: Well, how about fail not fail the new book?   Michael: Yeah…   Garrett: You know, people have these promoters out there just say that most wrongheaded stuff about LLC. I mean, they say that you don't need an operating agreement- wrong. They say that you never have to issue stocks or timber membership interests certificates- wrong. So you you'd need to treat your LLC, like a corporation whereby you have to follow these formalities. You have to have the annual meeting, right and the idea that you never have to have a meeting is when you get into a court of law, you're in front of a judge or a jury. I want you to have a minute book with the minutes of every yearly meeting in it and these promoters say, well, you never have to have a meeting. I want you to walk into court and tell the jury, yeah, I ran this property for 12 years and never had a meeting. It just doesn't work.   Michael: It's not going to fly.   Garrett: It's not going to fly. So you know, the reality is, when you're in a courtroom, the reality is not when you're in office with a promoter telling you don't have to do anything to maintain your LLC. It's just not accurate. Yeah, so that's why I wrote the book, because there's so much misinformation out there about corporate formalities. So with a corporation, you need to follow the corporate formalities and with an LLC, you need to follow the corporate formalities because someone suing can pierce the corporate veil on a corporation, they can pierce the veil on an LLC. It's very, and the rules are not hard to follow. They're really easy. It's just if you don't follow them, they can go through the LLC and reach your personal assets.   Michael: Yeah no, that's such a great point and also, Garrett, I mean, to that point, if someone listening is thinking about reaching out to an attorney for help with forming for entities or restructuring entities, I mean, what are some questions they should be asking and things they should be looking for, with an attorney that they want to put on their team?   Garrett: Well, does the attorney invest in real estate? I mean, I think that's a good question to ask because, you know, I invest in real estate, I've been through the wars and so it just helps you appreciate what the client is going through to have done that yourself. You know, I think some attorneys specialize in personal injury. In contract cases. I mean, you want someone who really knows the ins and outs of LLCs, and appreciates that we have good states and weak states, and that you have to put the combination together to fully protect the client.   Michael: Yeah, that makes total sense and we're recording this, let's see September 2022, what is like the reasonable cost to form an LLC, and then what are any kind of maintenance fees associated with maintaining the LLC?   Garrett: Well, we charge a flat fee of $795, in that, and then the filing fees are on top of that. So Wyoming, for example, is $100. That 795 includes the registered agent for the first year. So you're not paying any extra for that. We also have a system whereby we keep all your documents and if you have lost your operating agreement, we give you a portal where you can go on and download your documents. So we kind of have this backup service for you and then so you pay the 795, the first year, and then the second year, it's already formed, so everything drops down, you only pay 125 to four, the registered agent. Now we give you a book that shows you how to do the minutes because you really should do the minutes every year and even though we give you the book with the forms in it, a lot of people don't do it. So we offer a service where for $150 a year, we'll make sure that your minutes are done and we want to keep you in good standing, we want you to have those annual meeting minutes in your file, just in case you don't want to be in a courtroom and say I never had a meeting.   Michael: Right, it's too late, then like you said, Garrett, this has been super informative and people want to reach out, continue the conversation, take advantage of your services, what's the best way for them to get in touch?   Garrett: Well, they can go to https://corporatedirect.com/schedule/ and set up a free 15 minute consultation with an incorporating specialist that you'll work with this person all the way through the process and they'll give you a quote for what our services entail and you know, just see if there's a fit, we're happy to talk to you and so we set up entities in all 50 states, maybe you're you set up your entity already, it's an LLC, you don't have an operating agreement, you haven't issued the membership certificates. Don't tell anyone but we can clean it up for you. We also offer a registered agent service in all 50 states. So if you've got one company here, one company there we can be your one company to serve as the registered agent in all 50 states. So we'd be happy to help your listeners Michael and you know, have them call corporate direct or go, go visit the website, corporatedirect.com and there's plenty of information and articles there and kind of tells you what we do.   Michael: Amazing. Well, Garrett, thank you so much for that. One final question before I let you out of here. We've said the term a couple times. But for anyone who maybe isn't familiar, can you bring them up to speed on what a Registered Agent is and what the importance is?   Garrett: Well, the Registered Agent is someone in the state where you set up the entity or where you're qualified to do business and the idea is that instead of having someone who's trying to sue you search all over the state of Texas for you, right? The Registered Agent is an address where someone suing, you can go and serve the registered agent with service of process. So it's just it's kind of an efficient way for the justice system to work. It's one place where you can serve an LLC or a corporation, and then they're responsible for forwarding that on to you and so you want to use a reputable registered agent service that knows the importance of a lawsuit, if we get a notice of a service, we're on the phone immediately to our client, because you've only got 30 days to get an attorney and answer that complaint. So you don't want a mom and pop that is going to go out of business or doesn't appreciate the consequences of being served with a lawsuit. So it's an important function and if you fail to pay the Registered Agent, they're going to refuse service a process and then they're, you know, the person suing us is going to go back to court and get, you know, authorization to publish notice in the newspaper, and again, you're not going to get noticed to this cert of the claim. So you want to have that registered agent on your team at all times.   Michael: Yeah, yeah, super great point and the Justice Department looking for efficiencies. That's not something I maybe I've ever heard before. So really exciting stuff.   Garrett: It's something that does exists, so…   Michael: Oh, Garrett, thank you. Again, this was super informative, and I definitely would love to have you back on once your book comes out in November.   Garrett: That sounds great. Thanks, Michael.   Michael: You got it, take care. We'll chat soon.   Garrett: All right.   Michael: All right, everyone, and that was our episode a big thank you to Garrett for coming on. Definitely take advantage of that. 15 minute free consult if you're interested. As always, if you liked the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review. We'd love to hear from you all and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing…

Pete Neubig has been investing in real estate since 2001. He has owned and managed 39, 52, and 100-unit apartment complexes. He currently owns single-family homes and a 52-unit apartment complex. Pete created a property management company based on the motto "by investors for investors". His property management company has clients from Houston and all over the world. His technology-based systems allow owners to see everything that is happening at their property without having to be involved. Pete leverages virtual assistants to do more than he can do on his own. A real estate virtual assistant (VA) is a business admin who essentially acts as your right hand. A real estate VA can offer a variety of business services in-person or remotely. The right VA can cover diverse tasks like lead gen and database management, or even finance and marketing. Tune in for today's episode where Pete talks about how he uses virtual assistants and what real estate investors should be aware of when they want to take this step in building a team. Episode Link: https://www.vpmsolutions.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and joining me again today for a recurring visit is Pete Neubig and he is the founder of VPM solutions. He's gonna be talking to us today about virtual assistants and what we as investors should be aware of and how we can utilize them to our advantage. So let's get into it.   Pete Neubig what's going on man, you are back for more didn't have enough the first time we had.   Pete: Man, Michael, thank you so much for bringing me back on. I had we had such a blast. You know, last time just talking about my investor jury and then right at the end, we got to talking about my new venture and so I'm glad, thank you so much for having me back to talking about my new venture.   Michael: Of course, no, super, super excited. So for those who didn't catch the tail end of our conversation from your prior episode, give us a quick and dirty who you are, and what you're doing in real estate and what your company is all about.   Pete: Sure. Well, my name is Pete Neubig. I'm out of Houston, Texas, I started buying properties in 2001. I bought so many that I failed miserably at it that I ended up creating a property management firm in 2012, sold that firm in 2019 and in 2020, I started VPM solutions and we went live with our product in 2021 and VPM solutions is think of it as a dating service. It's like it's an online marketplace that connects people in the United States and Canada, like employers, you know, people in real estate, with contractors in mainly Philippines and Mexico, but we're in about 60 different countries where we have different contractors and so that's you know, so we're like, like dating service, like match.   Michael: I love it, I love it, I love it. Okay, so who are your clients? Kind of on the investor side and then who are your contractors on the contractor side, just random, random people?   Pete: Yeah, that's a great question. So we really try to stick with the real estate industry. So because I'm a property manager by trade, we started with property management and so we targeted property managers in the United States and Canada, right, because in property management, as most of your clients know, especially if they self-manage, is a process oriented and is a people oriented business, right? It there's a lot of things you have to do manually and so you can't automate as you can automate a lot. But there's still a lot that has to be done manually. So we started there. So that's our main clients, we're now breaking into the real estate and brokerage side of things because there's a lot of work, there's a lot of help, they need like transaction coordination, and just generating leads and appointment setting, so we're there, as well and on the contractor side, what we're looking we advertise we do quite a bit of advertising in different countries, just letting people know, hey, you can work from home, you can pretty much make a little bit more money than what you can get, you know, in your environment and we actually build some, it's called LMS. But it's video training, that you can literally take video training for free to learn more about right now is property management. But we're going to be built, we're going to be throwing some other videos out there always well, we'll be adding more video training out there and so are our contractors, somebody who's bilingual, someone who's educated, and somebody who's looking to make a little bit more than what they what they make in their own in their own country, and that they want to get into real estate, mainly property management or in the real estate industry.   Michael: Okay, interesting. So I am like, the whole concept of a VA is I understand it, but it's totally foreign to me, I've never utilized one but I know people who have so give all of our listeners who are listening, a little bit of background or insight like why should someone consider a VA, like what benefits do they bring?   Pete: Yeah, another great question, man. It's like, so, here's the main thing, right. What happens is, you get so much work, that you need to hire somebody, right? Whether it's whether you're self-managing, and like me and Steve, what my business partner, we were self-managing properties and next thing, you know, we had all these maintenance requests, we had all these leases that had been renewed and we had all these resident questions and we have lease marketing, and it gets daunting and all of a sudden your conical passive job becomes very, very active very quickly and so now you have to either A) hire somebody or B) you know, hire a property manager or hire somebody internally, right and so when you start looking at assistants in the United States, what happened was, especially after the pen EMIC with inflation. So what's happening is those low level low enjoyment tasks that that you don't want to do as the you know, as the investor or as the self-manager you want to give to somebody else? Well, if you, you try to hire that person United States, typically what happens is that job role doesn't pay what people want.   So for example, it might be like the job role might only pay 30,000 a year, right? That's a full time, whatever, but the person wants 50,000 a year and if you pay that person, what they wanted, you would make you would be negative cashflow, you will make any money. This happens quite a bit when you're managing your own properties and you're kind of building your portfolio and adding more properties to your portfolio. It's like all of a sudden, you're overwhelmed overworked, to hire somebody, now you're cash negative and so and then what happens is with these folks, what I found in my personal job, my personal company, Empire industries, when we when we started, we manage over 1000 units. When I hire people in the US, they have like a GED, or that you're getting very, like you're getting very low, you know, schooled, low education type people, and what happens is one, they're not appreciative of the opportunity get, and then two, they always want more money, and then three, they always bring in their outside challenges into your business, the car doesn't work, they take more time off, you know, they have family drama, that kind of comes into your business and so in the past, what happened was, you have to be stressed out to make money in property management. So I have I have, I have, I have all these doors are managing, I have all this work that needs to be done, I have to hire somebody. But as soon as I hire somebody, now I'm not profitable. So now I have to go get more properties to manage, so that I can bring the income up and now everybody's stressed again and the reason why everybody's stress is because I'm hiring people in the States, which, you know, demand a much higher hourly rate, if you will and so what I realized is, if I, if I hire if I outsourced, in a second or third world country, I can get educated people, bilingual educated people, that will work for a lot cheaper than somebody in the US and it's not, I'm just going to pay them less because they're in the Philippines or they're in Mexico, it's that in Mexico, $10 an hour goes a lot further than $10 an hour in Houston, or $10 an hour in Northern California. So the way I tell people look at is like this, if I took if I was doing the same job in Northern California, as I do in Houston, Texas, I'd get paid a lot more for that job in Northern California, because the cost of living, right, and then I'd get less money doing the same job in Houston, because of the cost of living and I probably make, I probably even get paid less if I was in like Arkansas, because of the cost of living. The dollar still travels just as far. Well just think of Mexico, as you know, as the next level down of cost of living. Just because you're paying somebody $10 an hour doesn't mean you're taking advantage of them. Matter of fact, $10 an hour in Mexico is a very good hourly wage. It's actually a very good wage and then in Philippines, to give you an idea, Michael $4 an hour is a good wage in the Philippines.   Michael: Wow.   Pete: And you think you save yourself? There's no way we're gonna take advantage these people? No, I mean, $4 an hour is a good wage in the Philippines. So it's, you know, as a criminal getting paid very well here in the States and so, the reason why people are outsourcing is because I can get bilingual and by the way, most of these people are either their high school educated or greater. They have some type of education after high school, whether it be associate's or a college degree. So you're getting educated people that that are bilingual, for a fraction of the costs in the United States that you are in the United States and because these low level jobs can, you can only pay so much. Now you can actually pay what the job role requires, which means now you can make more money in the company, right and then I'll turn this around on how we actually helped our US people, because I had people in Empire that were that were making some money. The ones I hired the virtual team members like oh, Pete, you got rid of jobs. Actually, no, they got rid of themselves because I couldn't afford them anymore. They wouldn't work at the level I needed them for the company make money. But once I hired these other virtual team members in the company started making money, I was able to actually pay my US people more, I was actually able to get better benefits for my US people, right because these are contract workers in the Philippines and Mexico and you know, Costa Rica, wherever you're going to hire them from and so they're contract workers, so they work they get paid, that's great. But your team members in the US once a company starts making more money, you can treat your kids because their employees right so you can treat them better stock options or 401k, whatever it was. So for us, it was bonuses, it was higher salary and we started doing we started we started looking at it we start doing health insurance. So that's how we were able to benefit out team. So the next question is, well, what can a VA do that somebody in the US?   Michael: Yeah, that's exactly where I was gonna go with it.   Pete: What I'll tell people is the VA can do anything that the person in us can do except for two things. One, obviously, if they need to be physically at the property, right, right, they can't they can't do that and then we'll do if they need a license, if they need a license to do something, they can't do license act, right. So give you an example, though. We actually had one of our virtual team members do all of our lease renewals? Well, you say, well, P That's a licensee Act and the you know, you need to be licensed to do lease renewals and the answer is actually, you don't need to be licensed to just create the lease renewal, you need to be licensed to negotiate the lease renewal. So what we would do is 90% of our lease renewals were not negotiated, most people just sign the lease renewal, right, most of our owner clients, or our residents would just sign the lease renewal and the ones that would have questions, that would get escalated to our property manager and so what we did just that one, just that one job role, what we did is we literally took 90% of the work away from the property manager gave it to give it to the virtual team member and then a product manager took the escalations. Now, I'm a big proponent of it, the way you can save your company, so to speak, a lot of a lot of stress and noise is can you automate through policy and can you automate through, you know, computer technology, in this case, what we did in this, you have to look at it but in Houston, we know that the average rate, the average renewal rate would go up about 2% per year over time. Now, some years, it would go up more in other years, it wouldn't go up at all, it actually would go down. But over time we…   Michael: need in terms of like the rent, like how much rent, you're getting rent increase the renewal… Yeah, okay.   Pete: So we did is we just create a policy that our rent increases every 2% every year, and we put that in the lease. So there was no negotiating, right on the residence side...   Michael: It wasn't up for discussion…   Pete: Right, so but if people say, hey, I'm gonna leave unless we do XY and Z, well, that would get escalated but we were able to reduce the escalations because of the part because of the policy we were able to automate and then we on the on the owner side, we would send something 90 days out, hey, do you want to renew your release or not, right like, we didn't ask them what the amount was, we because we built the 2% and so we stopped doing CMAs. So it is a lot of grunt work that we can stop doing, which then allows your virtual team ever to actually do a lot more, we have one person for 1000, doors, doing lease renewals, and, and reviewing inspections.   Michael: one person for all 1000 doors…?   Pete: For lease renewals and inspections. Yeah…   Michael: Holy smokes.   Pete: But then I had one person that did all collections. So I'll kind of go through the whole thing, right. So like, you can have a virtual team member, their whole job literally could be making sure that your collections are being done, your notices are getting sent out and that they can if you have if you have a third party company like we did that handle the evictions, they can actually be the gatekeeper with that third with that third party company and do all that stuff. My property managers did nothing with evictions   Michael: What?   Pete: Yeah, yeah. So we again, we had policies in place, right. So if, if the resident owed less than 50%, we, we wouldn't file evictions, if they owed, you know, 50% or more, we'd file the eviction we like so we just put on a different policy. You teach the VA, what the policies are, and then they just follow the process and what's cool is they actually know the process better than you and they, hey, can I do this or this or this instead, and they tweak the process and you're like, yeah, that sounds so much better and then they own the process. So if you're like an investor listening to this, and you don't like magic companies, for whatever reason, by the way, obviously, I own a magic company, I highly recommend. But let's just say, let's just say that you don't like me had a bad experience, and you're gun shy. But what you're finding is your leases aren't being renewed, right? You're your maintenance is overtime, the phone rings you like, I don't want to deal with this. You hate when somebody moves out, because you want to deal with the turn, your books are a mess, because you don't have time to do the books because you're, you know, a high net worth individual working 70-80 hours a week as it is, then a VA could do all of that stuff for you. They can do everything, you got to train them, of course. So just step back, take two steps forward. But they can do your property accounting, they could be your QuickBooks, they could do your business accounting, they could do your maintenance coordination, they could do your turn coordination, they can do your collections or evictions. So they can do your utility turn on and turn offs, like so all that stuff that you like, oh my god, they could do your onboarding for you. So I was going to get a new property you got to enter all that stuff in the in the computer system. They can do all of that stuff for you.   Michael: If anyone's watching the video here, you see that my jaw is like on the floor. So for anyone listening I just want wanted to bring you up to speed. But okay, so peace on, let me just understand. So they could do, like they could do all of this stuff and literally anything I mean sky's the limit is and with regard to things that they can do other than the two things you mentioned the license act, and then anything that requires them to physically be there. But when it comes to accounting, I mean, one thing that I'm thinking about is, there's very sensitive information, there's banking information, there's pat, you know, credit card information, as part of the accounting process that I do personally. So am I going to need to divulge personal information and sensitive information to the VA or like, how does that work?   Pete: Yeah, so, you know, in most in most instances, like in your QuickBooks, and in any property management software, they have different levels of permissions and even in your banking, like I bank with Chase, and Chase has different levels of permissions. So I can give you all the rights to, to my, my, my VA team, right, which I did, I gave them all the rights, so they can see everything, they can reconcile the bank statements, they can, they can look at everything, they just couldn't make any payments, right, they couldn't make any transactions. So that's, that's what we did. Now, we also had two property accountants that they did probably accounts for our third party folks and so they had access to, you know, sensitive information. So what we did is we did a bet we did a thorough background screening, there's a third party company out there that can do background screening, and they came up, you know, pretty, they came out really good. So we went forward, and then we just had our cyber liability insurance policy just to make sure go again, because we're a property manager firm with over 1000 units that we manage. So we wanted to make sure that we you know, we took care of ourselves. But if you're an individual with a handful of properties, or a small property manager, then you can do all of this through the permissions that your banking and that your that your software allows you to do.   Michael: Okay and so as I'm hearing you, you talk about as a man, I'm getting really excited, I'm trying my the wheels are kind of turning on all of the things that I might be able to outsource. What are some things that you should definitely not have a VA do? I mean, have you seen some things go really sideways or go really south because someone said, oh, well, Pete said, they can only can't do these two things. So I'm gonna give my VA everything else. I mean, what should I be thinking about in terms of limitations?   Pete: Yeah, so I gotta be honest, you, Michael I, at first, I always thought like, okay, I'm just gonna give him a list of things to do. I'm going to scan it to him and we're going to just do this stuff off the list, like a checklist thing. I quickly realized he could do much more. Then I said, hey, I own the process and they own the process and they can and now I do believe that I actually had VA supervise people in the States. So I had somebody in Mexico supervising people in the United States. So I believe they can get to that that supervisory level, what I will say is, they can do everything. So I'm not saying they can't do anything. But the one thing is you need to put in place some escalation paths…   Michael: What do you mean?   Pete: So even though they own so let's say for example, they own maintenance, right? Well, they're going to be able to handle 99 out of 10 maintenance calls, no problem. But then there's that mold call that comes in, right where the resident says they have mold, well, right there, that should be a buzzword that gets escalated to the property manager because they don't like they don't have mold in other areas of the country of the world that were that worried about mold as much as much as we do in the US. So if there's like an emergency, that could that can cause you know, a resident can get sick, right, or anything like that we're property code. So each, each state has their own little different property code, right. So like, for example, in Texas, believe it or not heat, if they have no heat, that's, that's a, that's an emergency. But if they have if they don't have air non-emergency, well, we treat no AC as an emergency in our in our company we did and so there was like three or four things that those got escalated a property manager. Now the property manager, at that point would say, I'm going to take it from here, or here's what you should do. But then the property manager is kind of co-managing that ticket. So I believe that in any business that you run, whether you own a property management firm, or you're a you know, an individual landlord that manages your 10 units, there's got to be certain. I call them taps on the shoulder, there's got to be certain tabs that you realize this is a potential problem, right? So let me deal with it or I call them taps two by fours and then getting run over by a man, right? On over by a Mack truck means that you're in a lawsuit, right? The two by four means somebody moved out because you didn't handle a maintenance request in a certain way and the tap is the maintenance request is 10 days, 15 days old, whatever it is, and no one's looking at it. Right, so how can you run your business through tabs? Well, if you have these vas, the great thing is you're not doing the work anymore, right? You're not creating the lease renewal you're not you know, calling, you know roto rooter to get out to the property. You're not doing that but what you have to do is you have to take a step above, right so you have to instead of being at the ground level, you got to be 2000 feet up, right, not 15 30,000 feet up, but at least 2000 feet up and as report you have to review and so if you see a property that's vacant for over so many days, that's a tap, if you see a maintenance request that's open for so many days, or major quests that hasn't been responded to, in so many days, these are tabs. So if you can identify what the potential problems are, your job now becomes manager, right? So I'm not the doer anymore. So you're getting rid of the task or hat, you put it on your manager hat. So if you hire a VA for him to do everything, and then you don't put your manager hat on, I can tell you, you're gonna, you're gonna get in trouble. Especially if you, especially if you do terrible training, which most people do.   Michael: That was gonna be like my next question and so like, for everyone listening, what what's the expectation around training? How long is it before a VA is really up and running and so as people are thinking about, okay, forecasting, I don't need a VA today, but maybe in 369 12 months, I maybe need one. So what's the runway lead up time to get someone effective?   Pete: You're gonna hit the answer, but it depends.   Michael: That's my favorite answer.   Pete: It depends, okay, so the more like, even if I'm a smaller firm, and only got 20 properties, I'm managing, I'm doing everything, you have to teach that VA, every piece of managing that property, right, from onboarding, to, you know, to utilities, to lease ups to move into maintenance, to collections to eviction, to move out, and you have to teach them everything… Well, just because only one move out happens a month, it doesn't make anything any easier, you have to learn, they have to learn how to do that they have to understand basically, property management. So that's going to take a lot longer than say, like, with me, I had one person like all they do is collections. Well, I can teach collections in less than two weeks. Right, especially if you have processes in place. So the big thing depends. So if I wanted to hire somebody for collections, it'd be about two weeks. But if I want to hire someone to do maintenance, the more I call them, if they analysis, the more decision points there are in the job. In the process, the longer the training, right maintenance, so many things go could happen with lease renewals, it's like there's three things, like you teach them the three things, and then they know, okay, I do these three, if this happens, I do this and if this happens, property manager, right. So to my least your own person, it really was like two weeks of training. My maintenance people, it was about two months to three months of training.   Michael: Wow. Okay, so yeah, you weren't kidding. When you said it depends.   Pete: It depends, yeah.   Michael: And then I guess, like, the next question that comes to mind is, what is the turnover look like if I'm an investor, and I'm investing two months, three months into a person really getting them up to speed, and then doesn't work out or they don't like it or they move on, like, what have you seen in terms of turnover?   Pete: That's a great question as well. So what I saw at Empire, I had 23, virtual team members, 23 different roles that that my virtual team members handled, and I had them for about five years, you know, most of the jobs some jobs were newer, but I had people there for five years and in those five years, I had to get rid of I let go of two and one person left. So I had three people, my churn rate was much lower on the VA side of things than they were on the US side of things…   Michael: I was gonna ask… in the US:::   Pete: Now, I'll tell you why my churn rate was low, though, okay, because I treated these people like team members, not like virtual assistants, right? So the old mentality of a virtual assistant is, I'm just going to throw you here's the work, you go do the work, I'm going to make sure it's done and like, that's it right. My guys that we have day out there on our website, they had videos, they were they were part of all of our company meetings, they had, they had ownership of each of their job roles so that they can, they can modify and do things they had, they had more control over certain things. We went down, I went down there to go visit them, because most of my people were one city in Mexico, so I paid them PTO like I gave them like if they even though there were contractors, if they needed a day off Mike just put the time in, that's okay, I'm gonna give you a day. So we the more you treat people like we can we put them on a bonus structure. So if their key performance indicator was met, they got a pat on the back, but if they exceeded it, they got they got 50 bucks, or something small, but $50 to somebody in California that Michael they're going to take the $50 thing it's critical and throw in your face like this isn't even a gallon of gas. You know, and but in you know, Mexico you give somebody 50 bucks that's like a half a day's work, like so again, you so you can make people happier with a lot less with a lot less money, right? because sometimes it's like, oh, it's not the thought. It's like, wow, man, you only gave me $20 like that's like almost like an insult you know, in the US where it's not a over there. So if you treat the people, right, so what does that mean? It's not just like paying them and treating them, right, make it part of the team, but also manage them correctly. A lot of people think like, I'm just gonna hire this VA, but they have, like, they hire the VA and then you're, you're not ready for the VA, like, you hire them because you like you got excited, you heard this podcast, I'm gonna hire VA, right and then it's like, okay, you don't have a good job description, you're not really sure what they should do, you don't know how to manage if they're doing a good job or not and so you hire somebody, and they don't really know what to do, and then you don't know what to do and then it doesn't work out, right. So I recommend anybody do is make sure like you, you create a job description first. So you can go about it two ways:   One is I want them to take this, this process from end to end or two is like I want to be an executive assistant and I want to do the things that I hate doing. So identify the low level low enjoyment tasks that you don't like, create a job description from that, post it out there, say this is what I'm looking for or say, man, I really want to give somebody collections evictions, you know, like that process? So it depends if you're if you're smaller than you may say, hey, I want them to be a property manager and give me all the things I have to do just understand it's a lot more training. So once you have the once you have the job description, so that you know what they should do they know what they should do. The next thing is what are the key indicators that you know they're doing a good job and the rule of thumb is 123 key indicators they call key performance indicators and every job role in the organization should have at least one if somebody has 14, that's way too many, I know because I live this I had my property manager API's and it's not it was way, way too much. So like, for example, your executive assistant. If that's where they are, you know, maybe they have to answer calls, well, maybe a KPI is answering 94% plus call rate, right or response to any email is in less than one day. Now, you the KPIs, you can pull them out of a hat, but they have you have to have a report that can show that, that they can put the KPI and so they have to get the data, the data has to be available, right? So if I say hey, I want a 90% call rate, but my call, my call software doesn't have call answer rate, I'm not gonna be able to get that number. Does that make sense?   Michael: It makes total sense.   Pete: And so you have to be able to report on it. So just because you want a KPI, but there's no way to report on it, then you have to figure out a way to report it and get that KPI. If not, you have to move to a different KPI. So if I have the job description set up, they know what to do that we have the key indicators, so they know what the scorecard is if they're doing a good job or not, and so to you, because so many of you will say, yeah, I feel like that he's not doing a good job. What the hell is that me show you?   Michael: How do you know?   Pete: Especially if they're, you know, 20,000 miles away for you in the Philippines? Like, yeah, like, so how do you know the key indicators and then if you have good training, and you spend the time with them, and then you should once you have the train, So training is like every day, right? You do every day for two weeks, maybe three weeks, you have training every day, hour a day video so they can rewatch it and they can build, they build the process manual, not us. So they build a process manual. Why is that important because if I had 100 page process manual for maintenance, I did Michael I swear at Empire had 110 page process manual…   Michael: We talk in single space, or double space?   Pete: Single space, I think. Like legit, it was legit. Nobody read it. Nobody knew how to navigate it and nobody learned once I had them build their own manuals, guess what happened, they started retaining stuff and they knew how to navigate their manual. So don't be don't be upset if they like let them create their own manual so they can navigate it. So now you know what they what you want them to do. They know what they know what they're supposed to do. You can you can you can scorecard it with the metrics, you train them, and now you manage them and the way you do that is you have a weekly meeting. Now if you're smaller, you're going to have you're going to meet with them every day, right my IV pm or smaller firm was five of us, I mean, when my VAs every day, because we're just we're so small, we have to talk about what to talk every day when I was at Empire because I have 40 people working for me. I met them once a week and I would meet my maintenance team, separate from my accounting team separate from my resident services teams and for my own services team. But I would go over with them each week and we'd go over, we'd say what's a feel good? Tell me something that's good, right because as humans, we have this habit of going below the line instead of like above the line. So let's start off the meeting really good. Let's go over to metrics, right individual and then the group metrics, the department metrics, then let's go over tasks from last week did they get done? Then let's go over challenges and each one of those a five minutes and challenges like 20 minutes, 25 minutes. You don't you can't solve all them all the time. But you can solve you know, a couple of them and if you could solve a couple of challenges each week, you're doing really, really good and then and then one thing I added was what's your stress level from zero to 10. This was interesting because sometimes they'd be at a 10 and it was because somebody was on vacation or we just got 50 new houses that week, it's worth, you know, 10 yeah, okay. But when it's 10 all the time, and that's the standard, that means you haven't to do too much and if somebody's attend all the time, it means they're ready to punch out. Like anybody in your team, you should literally take the pulse of your team on a weekly or monthly basis, right and but here's sometimes the 10 was because they had something going on personally and then I'd get everybody off the off the phone, and then I would talk to them personally and that gives you an incredible opportunity to create relationships with people who you never met, that working with you that are, you know, 5-10 1000 miles away and that is why they didn't leave me because they knew I cared, right, it wasn't a bonus. It was it was I cared, I want them to grow the company, I want them to, you know, to, to feel like they're wanted, but I also cared about their personal lives, I really did and so if somebody had an issue, you know, Hey, man, you know, we talk about so you get to learn a lot about people when you do that. But I did that each week and if a KPI was read two weeks in a row, and went to the issues list, you know, things and so you, if you have a structure with your business, you're the person you hire, the chances at whether that's in the US, like sitting next to you in the US, that's, you know, a few states away, that's working virtually, or a virtual team member outside the borders of the US. If you have structure, the chances of you hiring somebody successfully becomes great becomes very, you know, most cause much greater. But if you don't have that structure, the chances of hiring anybody is not going to be it's not going to be very, very, very good. It's going to be much lower rate of success.   Michael: Yeah. That makes a ton of sense. Pete, have you ever had a VA hire and train another like another VA?   Pete: Oh, yeah, of course. That's the whole job, right? The whole goal, right? So monkey see monkey do, right? So when I forget Empire, the first round of vas, you're looking at the trainer. I was the guy I trained there. Okay but my maintenance team, once somebody would leave, and somebody would get hired, or they would hire a new person, I was out at a training business.   Michael: I love it.   Pete: They train them. So once you train that first batch, and by the way, here, Michael, here's the secret to at Empire, I was gonna hire two virtual team members. That was that's what was in the budget. I interviewed four people hired all four of them and here's the reason why one figure one person is going to wash out right? Can you figure that and then the second thing is, it's, I was hiring two to three people for one person United States.   Michael: Okay.   Pete: All right. So think about that hourly rate, I would get rid of one person us and I'd hire three people in Mexico and so do you think more stuff gets done with three people?   Michael: I would than one probably guessed.   Pete: So. Yeah. So then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna hire four people. So I was over budget, guess what happened within 30 days, I'm able to grow my business because more tasks are being done and so all of a sudden, it's like, yeah, and if one but I hired four, none of them washed out, I was one of them wasn't a good fit, they were a good fit for the organization, not a good fit for the role. So we moved on to a different role. So another important thing is when you hire and this is probably I mean, your team, your, your listeners probably know this. But every business has core values, that can be a sheet on the wall that you never look at, and they're not going to be any, they're not going to be worth anything for you. But you should have core values that you hire, fire, promote and demote on, and give raises to like, that's your core value. So who are the people you want on the bus with you, right and if you are, if you are an individual landlord, that you know has a bunch of house and you're looking to hire that first person. Well, that's a business, right Michael, would you teach that like, as soon as you're hired, as soon as you buy that first house, you are business…   Michael: Yeah, you are business…   Pete: You are business. So you need to have core values and if you don't, as a business, you should have them as an individual. So who are the people I called the fog. So who do people want to foxhole with you? That gets you the right person in the organization. But that doesn't mean they're the right person in the right seat, right because the right see, for example, like, if somebody's super outgoing, you want them in sales, if they're super outgoing, but not detail. You don't want them in accounting, right? I might have the right person. But if I put that outgoing person, and that's shipping and sales and accounting, he's going to do a terrible job. So I found the people through my core values, I then put them through a personality profile test. I like disk. It's super simple. I don't know what you would use. Do you have one that you use?   Michael: No, not personally, but I'm definitely going to be adopting one as I'm gonna get for virtual assistant, yeah…   Pete: There's, there's a lot of them out there. Disk is super easy. I know it very well. It's easy to learn. So I use disk. So that tells me I get the right person in the organization. I put them in the right seat and through my job description and my key performance indicators. I know they're going in the right direction. So if you do all of that, and then you do the training and then you do the managing the chances of you having somebody washed out or somebody leave, it goes down dramatically. It's not 100%. It's never 100.   Michel: Like anything… Yeah, that makes a ton of sense to me, Pete this has been, this has been super eye opening, really exciting, exciting stuff for people that want to learn more want to take advantage of the cam solutions, like how do they get in touch with you? Where should they be going?   Pete: Yeah, so you can go to https://www.vpmsolutions.com/ , and create a free profile. So that's the other thing, Michael, everything on the company side is free. So creating a profile posting a job, searching for people, finding them is all free. When you thought when you hire somebody, they we charge the virtual team member a percentage, and that's how we make our money. So, it's free to the company. So all you're paying is the hourly rate, and a small processing fee that we pass on from the stripes of the world onto the onto the dude the company, but that's what it should go and if you want to email me directly, it's pete@vpmolutions.com and we have over 14,000 virtual team members in 60 countries on our on our site right now looking for work and we have property management video training that your listeners can actually take for free as well. So we have like, I think we have like 12 courses, it's over about nine hours of content it goes from, it's basically the lifecycle of property management. So if you are a, you know, a self-manager, and you want to learn more about how I can manage my property a little bit more efficiently, I highly recommend taking those courses and then when you post the job, you can actually ask your VA, these are the recommended courses that we recommend that you take and then people would actually take those courses on their time and they're done. So you're getting a little bit of people trained before you actually are paying them.   Michael: That's really slick and it probably helps weed out a little bit more of who's serious versus who's not is who's gonna put in the time in advance.   Pete: Absolutely, 100%...   Michael: Oh, man, I love it. Pete This has been so great. Thank you for coming on with us a second time. Definitely, we'll be in touch man.   Pete: Yeah, Michael, thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it.   Michael: You got it, take care. All right, everyone. That was our episode a big thank you to Pete for coming on. Super exciting. If you couldn't tell it was pretty giddy throughout the episode. It's something that I'm going to be very much looking into for my personal business. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, we love hearing from you reviews, comments, feedback questions are always welcome in the comment section, and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing…

Derek Dombeck, a Real Estate Expert hosts and runs the WiscoREIA based out of Wausau, WI. There he coaches and teaches other real estate investors his keys to success. He is currently hosting 3 national Mastermind groups called the R.E. Circle of Trust and puts on an Advanced training and Networking event each winter called The Generations of Wealth Voyage. In the last podcast episode, Derek talked about creative financing solutions for real estate investors. In today's episode he will be tackling the other side of the coin and will share some insights about private capital, lending and how that plays into real estate investing. Episode Link: https://gowvoyage.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today with me, I have Derek Dombeck again on the podcast and for those of you who missed his first episode, I highly recommend you going back and giving that a listen. But Derek is the owner of best REIA funding a private lender, he's also an investor. So today, we're gonna be talking about private lending, and also what we need to know as investors and how to utilize it. So let's get into it.   Derek, what's going on, man? Good to see you. Thanks for coming back on the pod.   Derek: Yeah, absolutely. Glad to be back.   Michael: I'm super excited to have you on. So last time, we talked about creative financing solutions for real estate investors. Now we're going to be tackling kind of the other side of the coin and so talk to us about private capital and lending and how that plays into real estate investing.   Derek: Well, I like to talk to our clients that are coming to us for loans in more along the lines of what how would they want to structure if they were the lender? So it makes more sense to them why are we asking for what we're asking for? We design our company, primarily because we were borrowers ourselves, and we want to do it in a way that would be probed by our borrower, but still safe for our investors. So a couple examples, we don't collect monthly payments, we don't collect interest payments, we let it accrue. Very, very few lenders do that. The methodology is that when you're when you're the lender, and a payment is missed or late, that gives you an indication of something could be going wrong with the loan and that's true. But we don't want to have to collect payments every month on 175 outstanding loans, which is typically what we're carrying at any given point in time. It's another staff member that we would have to have basically just to do that do collections. So as a borrower when I was borrowing the money, that's what I would have wanted, right? As a lender, it's different. So a lot of times I'm trying to have these conversations with our borrowers, as I mentioned, in a way that shows them that we're their ally, we're not just somebody sitting across the big fancy desk with a, you know, a suit and tie on looking down their noses at them. We want them to really realize that we are their business partner, in one way, shape, or form. Most interactions with borrowers if they've never met me before, it just starts out with a brief overview of our loan program and I often tell them, well, if you were going to be the lender, if it was your money, what would you want to see happen, especially if they're, you know, if your listeners are out there trying to apply for loans. There's three things two to three things that I think are super important. First one is whether they're going to a bank, a hard money lender, or a private lender, or their great uncle, have all of your documentation ready to go. At the I mean, at the drop of the phone, right? Like we get off the phone, bam, you can submit it. What drives every lender crazy is when they send stuff in piecemeal. You know, and we always have to ask for it and then we have to remind them and follow up that makes you look so foolish in the eyes of a lender. Okay, another thing for us, we don't require appraisals, but most people do. So, and we don't require appraisals in our loans, because I don't trust appraisers. They have no skin in the game, we have way more experience. But we're in a niche lending market of lending on rehabs and some appraisers may never have picked up a hammer in their life. How do they know what the after repair value is going to be based off of a scope of work? You know, if I get a scope of work that's submitted on an application and they claim they're gonna put a brand new kitchen in for $2,000 I'm gonna call bull ** because I know what it cost to put in a low end, middle end or high end kitchen. But again, as a borrower trying to help your listeners in that regard. If you're going to an appraiser or you're coming to us and we don't require appraisals, but having your data somewhere you had to come up with your numbers, right? When you made your offer to buy the property, I want to see, an appraiser may not want to because some of them don't necessarily like to help. But I want to see, because, you know, some of them are just arrogant. Let's be honest at it.   Michael: It's the ego play, yeah…   Derek: It's an ego play. But for me, it's not for me, it's required. I want to see those comps, or CMA, or a BPO, from a real estate broker, something to show me how did you come up with your valuations? If it's going to be a rental property, where's your cash flow analysis, you wouldn't believe it how many times we get applications in and they want to rent borrow money from our short term to fix the property, get a tenant in there and then refinance. But yet they have not talked to any long term lenders, typically banks to even know what their refinance terms would be or if they'd be able to get refinanced. They haven't done a cash flow analysis. Again, have everything ready for your lender as much as possible, right? Gosh, what else as a borrower, you know, coming in with a backup plan, a plan B, is so crucial. Our job as the lender is to expect you to fail and every question we ask is, is asked, because we want to know, if something goes wrong? Can we either take the property back or lien against the, you know, the borrower to get our money back? I mean, that's what it's all about. We are asset based lenders, banks are gonna look at the asset and their income, every lender is a little different.   But the bottom line is, can we protect our investors' money? Can we protect our money and if that borrower walked out of closing, sign the papers and got hit by a bus and died? Can we recoup our money, right? Borrowers don't think that way. Borrowers think sun shines, and sunshine and unicorns, right. Nothing's ever gonna go wrong, the project is going to be on time on budget, we're gonna get under budget. You know, it's total bul****. But that's, that's our jobs to explain that to them in a way that's, you know, we're not trying to drive them from our business, we want to do business with everybody, that's got to legit good deal. But they've also got to be realistic and the number one, two spots that most borrowers come in sunshine and unicorns, their budget is too low on their renovations, and their comps are too high. So they want to use the top comps and we don't, why don't we because the markets shift. Now, if they came in on evaluation, I'm going to use Wisconsin numbers, you know, because that's what I'm used to, if they come in with an after repair value of $200,000 and I look at the comps that they submitted to me and there was one house that sold for 200,000. But the majority of them sold for 175. Which one do you think is the lender want to use?   Michael: Yeah, the 175.   Derek: Right, so we're going to lend based on 175. Now, that means they're going to have to put some of their own or more of their own money into the deal. If they sell for 200 bonus for them. That's great, I hope they can. But as the lender, we can't live on hopes and dreams, we got to live on reality and what happens most of the time is they're trying to come in with as little money out of their pocket as possible by using the highest comps, the lender takes on all the risk, which is why we use the middle of the road comps and I don't go to the very low end either. But we're using the middle and again, if they have to put in 10 20,000 extra dollars, and they're confident in their numbers, they shouldn't have a problem putting in 10 to 20,000 extra because according to them, it's going to sell for 200 they should get their money back and then some but when you start changing that or having that conversation with them. Boy, it's amazing when they have to use their own money, how they start to sing a little bit different tune.   Michael: Yeah. Interesting. So it's almost like you have to protect them from themselves.   Derek: Absolutely and we will tell them that I mean, there's plenty of times where we have just flat out told people you should walk away from this deal. Like we want to do business with you in the future. We want to give you a loan, but you are setting yourself up for failure on this deal and most lenders wouldn't typically do that most lenders will just say, we're only comfortable lending up to x, go ahead and do the deal and then when they fail, the lender will take the property back and the lender is in good position depending on loan to value. But we don't, I don't really like that model. I mean, it's certainly not our model and at the end of the day, if I take care of that investor, and I save them from themselves this time, hopefully when they come back around, they're more educated, and they bring us a really great loan, they've got a really great project. That's what it's supposed to be all about.   Michael: Yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk about that for a minute, Derek. So it sounds like the things that you asked for, from your borrowers. It's really an opportunity for them to showcase their experience level that they've taught, crossed, the T's dotted the eyes and really thought about it and in very proactive in that, what if someone's just getting started? I mean, how much hand holding should someone expect from their lender or can they expect from their lender to help them get to a point where they're feeling confident or do you tell people hey, you know, go kind of skin, your knees somewhere else, and then come back to us when you're a little bit more polished?   Derek: So the answer is, it depends. There's, most lenders out there do not want to deal with brand new people. I mean, it's just a reality of life. We are different in that regard, too because we may say to the applicant, alright, we want you to partner with somebody, and that person has to have, you know, we'd like to see at least three deals worth of experience. Now, I don't care if they get mentored for free, or if they split the deal 50-50. I don't care what that partnership looks like. But we would like to see somebody with experience that is backing this deal and if they can't do that, or they don't want to do that, then we typically would say sorry, but we can't lend on this deal right now and if they don't know anyone else, which happens, we have an extensive network throughout the state. So we can pretty much in any market, we can line them up with somebody that would be willing to, to mentor them and get some feedback from them. So but I don't think there's a whole lot of lenders that would do that much hand holding… Yeah, you know.   Michael: And that makes sense to walk us through because you're a private money lender. So you are kind of this middle person where you take investor money, and then lend it out to other investors that are that buying real estate. So when the Fed talks about interest rate hikes are this sort of thing? Like, how do you set your pricing and what should listeners be expecting if they're going to private lenders in terms of rates, right now, we're recording this almost near early September and August 2022. What are you seeing an image of you'll be expecting.   Derek: So it's very volatile, depending on where you are in the country, and how much competition there is, we certainly have national, hard money lenders that are that are, you know, advertising, much cheaper rates than we offer. But they sell off their loans. Almost many before the ink was even dry. They're white labeling almost everything, which means that there's a hedge fund or another note buyer, that is fronting the cash to close the loan and at the closing table, that loan gets transferred and you know, the person that you signed the paperwork with may still be the servicer of the loan. So you may not even realize it's been sold off. But most of the national lending companies, that's what they do. The challenge with that is, when the borrower gets to any kind of a challenge, we'll call it with their loan, maybe they need an extension, or something's just going terribly bad. Those lenders are not going to be willing to work with them because they don't own the loan anymore. It's gone. It's in some hedge fund on Wall Street, and it's just a number. It's just a loan number, they don't care. They just okay, you failed, get out, we'll take your property. As private lenders, we don't currently we don't sell off any of our loans.   We are 100% privately backed, so I don't have any institutional money at all. That has their thumb on us telling us what we can and can't do and our investors are all individual people there, some are mom and pop. Some are, you know, a little bit higher net worth individuals, but we can have conversations with them. So for example, let's just assume that the markets crashed and 20% of our portfolio defaulted and we had to go take these properties back well, if the market isn't really viable, viable option to sell them off and be made whole, we can go to our investors and we've done this with all of our investors. Prior to them even getting started with us, we have this conversation, but we can go to them say, okay, you know, we still myself, my business partner still run a full time real estate acquisition company, we have rentals, we have everything in place. So we're gonna have to take these, you know, whatever it is 20, 30, 40 properties, and we're going to lease them out and we're going to just collect rents until the market comes back and our investors are, that's not their first choice, but they're okay with it, because they know it's a Plan B, I mentioned that before, you know, the, the borrower's don't want to come in with a plan B or Plan C, we've got that in place with all of our investors upfront and, you know, we pay our investors 9% currently, maybe they would have to agree to go down to 7% or 8%, it would have to look at the cash flow numbers. But that's still better than the alternative of losing money.   Michael: At zero, yeah, zero or negative.   Derek: As far as rates are concerned with us, what we pay our investors dictates what we charge and at 9%, we've got a three to four point spread on interest rate. So we charge 12%, throughout the bulk of the state of Wisconsin, and we charge 13%, currently in Milwaukee and it's really just to be 100% honest with you and your listeners, Milwaukee, we could probably charge more, because our competition is charging 15%. So we don't really have any intentions of increasing our rates, we don't have a lot of junk fees, that's another thing your listeners really should consider looking at when we're looking at any lender, the interest rates might be much, much better, but their junk fees, I know of a lender within my state, who charged something like $3,500 to get paid off. In order for you to pay the loan off, you had to pay a payoff fee, which is asinine. We see a lot of lenders that are charging several $100 to do a construction draw, or a loan or an escrow draw for your construction proceeds, that's your money as the borrower and you now have to pay three, four or $500 to get your money out of escrow. It's crazy, you know…   Michael: I've seen that.   Derek: All these fees are they're nuts. We do charge an extension fee if they go past our six month term and it's equal equals to what if we weren't able to redeploy that money and another 12% in three origination points. So for an extension fee, for us, it's a point per month, up to three more months. Why because we want that money back to redeploy it. So we could charge three more points, right? So but it's not some 10 points in some crazy, crazy astronomical numbers, it's really just trying to get our same level return on our money, whether it's extended or redeployed to a new loan.   Michael: Okay and people listening might be getting excited about using private money, because it sounds like so much more flexible, and just investor friendly. Other people might be a little bit scared hearing this and so I'm wondering if you can talk to if those people are listening, can they get involved on the investor side of things where they're funding other people's deals, and just clipping that 9% coupon or whatever the return is?   Derek: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if whether it's with me or with somebody else, I'm more than happy to talk to anybody about it and if you invest with us, you do if you don't, I don't, that's fine. But I would say there's some very important things that everyone should know if you went and borrowed money from your family. Okay, so maybe they're talking about a private lender being an individual that they have relationship with, or they might be using somebody's retirement account. I've seen this happen so many times, it makes me cringe. There was a couple young couple, I mentored them years ago, now they're, they're super successful, but they were just getting into the business and they were, they bought a flip house and they said, We borrow the money from my uncle at 2% and we can pay it back when we sell the house. So that's fantastic. That you know, this was back before 2% was popular, right? Yeah and I said, okay, did you put a note and a mortgage in place to protect your uncle and they said, no, he didn't care. He just said, pay me back when you get it, you know, when you get the money? I said, okay, do you have the property insurance? You know, the listing them? In case the place burns to the ground? Nope. Did you get them title insurance? Nope. All these things like they did not protect their family at all. So picture them getting sued by a contractor or anybody. Here's a free and clear property without a recorded mortgage against it and not and they lose it. Let's say we lose a lawsuit property gets taken away from them. Now they still owe their uncle all this money, and he had nothing to protect himself or we go back to the they get hit by a bus walking out of the title company, right?   Property, the money's gone, the money went to whoever they bought the property from, how does that family member collect or get their money back, if they don't have a mortgage in place, they can't foreclose on the property... So I just caution, anybody that's, you know, on the borrower side, that's going to borrow money from friends or family, make sure you always get title insurance to protect your lender. You know, the property insurance, the lender should be listed as a lender, not as an additional insured, there's a big difference and, you know, go through a title company, go through a closing attorney, make sure everything's aboveboard note mortgage in place, or deed of trust, depending on your state because you're just, I mean, you're hurting your family if you don't do it the right way. So always, always, always protect your lender, no matter what and if you're going to take a loss on a property or a project, I don't care what it takes, you make sure your lender is made whole, because we've lent money to people that screwed up their deals, but they took care of us and next time around, we lent the money again but you got to take care of your lenders. On the other side of it, if you want to be a lender, there's a lot that you have to consider just the whole underwriting of the deal. Is it a good deal? Is it not a good deal and how are you going to make sure that you get paid back are you going to have third party that goes there and make sure that the property is being managed, right, or if it's rehab, or you're gonna have somebody that's checking on the project and releasing money on construction escrow drawers. If you do want to collect monthly payments, who's going to do that who's going to service the loan. So there's a lot of things that it don't get me wrong, it's a great business, but there's a lot of things that people don't necessarily think about and I've seen it happen enough times where, you know, somebody has 100 200 $300,000 sitting around, and they just do a handshake deal, and lend the money to somebody, again, not getting the proper documentation in place. We had one ***hole and I say that, because he really was an ***hole, he took money out of his disabled brothers, IRA, to fund a rehab project and he had three other lenders on that project and he never he told his lenders, he was going to record all their mortgages for them and he never recorded the mortgages and it turned into this in this really nasty lawsuit. But he lost his disabled brothers IRA in that transaction and he's just the snake, you know, and they're out there. But you got to protect yourself. You know, I still believe in taking somebody at their word and believing the handshake. But that doesn't mean you don't write down and memorialize what you just shook hands about.   Michael: Right and if someone wants to get involved in the lending side of things, but you know what, you just said, what you just shared kind of makes them a little bit gun shy, or they want to have someone else take care of the day to day operations. I mean, are there businesses that they can plug into it? So here, take my money, pay me a return, I don't want to hear about it or know about what you're doing with it.   Derek: I mean, there is there's a lot of crowdfunding companies that you know, that became very popular. It seems to have died off here lately. You know, I don't hear as much or see as much marketing about crowdfunding. I would say the best way to do it is either find somebody in your local market at a RIA meeting, or, you know, a meetup group or even online, Bigger Pockets or something like that. But you got to spend some time getting to know who you're doing business with and, you know, Google the hell out of them, do background checks, all that kind of stuff. I invite anybody to Google me I have nothing to hide. You know, I'm never I just, I never tried to screw anybody over you know, and I mean, yeah, and it shows. But at the end of the day, you've got to know, this is I don't think this will ever circle back around. But I was invited to be on somebody else's podcast and I won't say the name. But then that gentleman was having a four day online conference and he asked me to speak for 90 minutes on this conference and I said, yeah, absolutely, I'd love to do it. He was expecting, you know, four or 500 people and so I was gonna send it out to my email list and help advertise it for him and it wasn't out there for 30 minutes, and two of my closest friends, one being a really good attorney were emailing me saying, Have you lost your fricking marbles? Like this guy is the biggest con artist and scammer there is and he actually the attorney sent me case studies of actual cases that this guy lost, and how he's not in jail, I don't know and I was just, you know, took and took him at his word. He's got a reputable podcast, right? So I'll go and speak on his conference. Well, who will you associate with can reflect very horribly on you, especially on social media. So I didn't mark it to anybody at that point, I still, I still spoke because I said I would and I believe in you know, I gave my word and I and there was a lot of other speakers at that event that were good. But I would never do business with that man and so that's the same thing. If you're going to lend money, or you're going to borrow money. Do you want to borrow money from a lender that doesn't want to be flexible if you run into trouble? Yeah, for us, we've only had to foreclose on nine properties in the last 10 or 11 years of lending, which is, is very, very, very low as far as the default rate. That's not to say we haven't had other people that had problems because we have, we have borrowers that have problems every week. But we're there to help them work through it, versus the lender, that's lending money as a backdoor way of getting properties.   Michael: It's a much more adversarial relationship.   Derek: Right, so you got to vet your lender, no different than if you were vetting somebody that you're going to invest with, we have a very clear in writing no ***holes policy within our company. I swear to God! Michael: I love it.   Derek: If I have somebody that and this has happened, I've had people that had several million dollars that approached us and said, We want to invest in your company and after half an hour, 45 minutes of talking with them, we just knew they were going to be the biggest pain in our *** and we turned them down. Same thing with our borrowers. If our borrowers stopped communicating with us, and stop doing what we agreed for them to do, then the ***holes  policy kicks in and we will have to default we will have to foreclose or at least we're not going to give them a loan next time. But the life is a lot better when you wake up in the morning and enjoy doing what you're doing and dealing with people that are not fun to deal with takes away from that. Yeah, we just don't do it. You just avoid it entirely. So I'd love to work with any of your listeners, unless they're an  *hole. Don't call me.   Michael: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Derek, on that note for people that do want to reach out that do want to work with you that have more questions about private lending, what's the best way for them to do so?   Derek: My, my personal email address is Derek spelled DEREK, @ bestreifunding.com (Derek@bestreifunding.com)  and I keep an eye on my own emails, my if I miss something, my assistant will grab it. But I'd love to chat with anybody that's got questions and again, it's this isn't a sales pitch. I mean, if somebody just says legit questions about lending, and they have no intentions of wanting to work with me as an investor, whatever, that's totally fine. I don't it's not about that for me and then the other thing I'm writing a book right now about lending in from start to finish. What happens when an application comes in all the way through closing and servicing after the fact and that's going to be coming out towards the tail end of the year, November December it'll be published. So I'd love to give your listeners that for free the electronic version for free.   Michael: Awesome.   Derek: So they just send me an email that same email address (Derek@bestreifunding.com) , and say, hey, I heard you on this podcast and put you on the list when the books published we'll get it out to you.   Michael: Fantastic. Thank you so much and I just have an ask for all of our listeners that do reach out to Derek if you wouldn't mind please referencing that you heard him on the Remote Real Estate Investor in the subject line. So he knows where you're coming to him from. That would be super helpful.   Derek: Absolutely.   Michael: Well, Derek, this was great, man. Thank you again for coming on the show. Really appreciate it and I'm sure we'll be chatting soon. Can't wait, can't wait to read the book.   Derek: Yeah, I can't wait to finish the book because it's great when you're writing a book, except some weeks are more stressful than others trying to hit deadlines and stuff. So I'm looking forward to it, but I'm really looking forward to it being done, too.   Michael: I can imagine I can imagine. Well, hey, man, we'll definitely be in touch soon.   Derek: Awesome. Thanks so much for having me.   Michael: You got it, take care.   All right, everyone. That was our episode, a big thank you to Derek for coming on again and sharing his time and knowledge with us. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, feel free to give us a rating or review wherever it is eat your podcasts, and we look forward to seeing in the next one. Happy investing…

An international commercial airline pilot who, after the tragedies of 9/11, was forced to realize that his “Safe and Secure career” was nowhere near as safe and secure as he had thought. Steve Rozenberg chose real estate investing to be able to control his own destiny and create his own generational wealth. He created the fastest-growing property management company in the state of Texas. Managing over 1,000 properties across 3 major metropolitan cities. Steve built the business up and created maximum cash flow positioning his company for a very profitable exit.   He has been a guest and collaborated on countless panels, webinars, masterminds, conferences, and podcasts as well as being a published author. In today's episode, he shares his story, how he began real estate investing, and how important your mindset is to be successful in this business.   Episode Link: https://steverozenberg.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by Steve Rozenberg, who's an airline pilot and entrepreneur, and he's gonna be talking to us about the mental mind shifts we as investors need to make in order to scale and have successful businesses. So let's get into it.   Steve, what is going on, man? Thanks so much for taking the time to come hang out with me today. I appreciate it.   Steve: What's happening, fellas, good to see you.   Michael: Oh, super good to see you, Steve. I am super excited to share with our listeners a little bit about you and your background, because I know a little bit about it. But for anyone who doesn't know who Steve Rozenberg is, bring us up to speed quick and dirty. Who you are, where you come from, what is it you're doing in real estate today?   Steve: Sure. So I live in Houston, Texas, born and raised in Los Angeles, actually, my career brought me out here and that careers, what got me kind of involved in being a real estate and being an entrepreneur. I'm an airline pilot by trade and I got hired at 25 years old. I was the second youngest person ever hired by this particular major airline and hired at 25, I had the best job in the world is flying all over the globe. I was 25 years old and it was the most safe, most secure job that anyone could imagine having. Until a certain day in history. That day was 9/11 and that day changed my life, it changed a lot of people's lives. It changed my life because on 9/13, two days after 9/11 in the towers fell, I got delivered a furlough notice and I was basically told, hey, Steve, you know what that safe, secure job that you thought you had, it was never safe and it was really never secure and you're about to be on the street with 50,000 other pilots.   So to say that I got punched in the face very, very hard within about 48 hours would be an understatement and it was it was rough. You know I always I ever want to do as a kid is be an airline pilot. I didn't want to do anything else. I was fulfilling my dream and this something happened, which I realized it had nothing to do with me but it affected me. You know, I didn't I wasn't a part of 9/11 but I was a repercussion, a ripple effect, if you will and so I started to talk about what I could do, what could I do? What to survive to make a paycheck, right? All I knew was to be a pilot, but there was many, many other pilots out there probably better pilots than me to be honest with you that you know, we're also on the street and I looked and I saw that everyone that was tied to wealth somehow was tied to real estate. I didn't know anything about real estate, but I was like, okay, I mean, I knew some pilots who had rental properties, but I didn't know much about it. So this is 2001. So there was no YouTube or Facebook. So I had to go to the library. I had to get a library card.   Michael: A lot of our listeners are probably asking, like, what is that?   Steve: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's a big house with a lot of books and so I had to start learning about real estate, I read a book a week and I just I read everything I could, because I thought that I was behind the curve of figuring out what I was going to do with this airline thing. If there was another terrorist attack or something happened, I was gonna be out of work and so I learned all the different things you know, now it's very cliche, you know, burrs and all this other stuff. But I just I learned how to buy I learned how to flip I learned how to wholesale properties. I got lied to, I got ripped off, I got cheated on. I mean, you name it, I just kept getting pushed down face down in the mud every time. But I kept getting back up because I had to I didn't I didn't have a choice. I had to figure out this combination and I, I saw people that were successful. So I was like, okay, there's a recipe. I just don't know it. But I can think like, I'm not the dumbest guy in the world. But I could figure this out and then I started getting better and I started winning a little bit more than I was losing and I started figuring out and what I realized was communicators are actually the ones that are the most successful, not the contractors.   It's four walls in a roof. It's relationship driven. It's not anything else and that relationship is driven by business models, and it's driven by systems and so I started realizing that the four walls and a roof and the dirt really had nothing to do with being a real estate investor. The successful people were good communicators, and they understood the value of leverage and team and then I started looking back at my real estate in my airline career and I started looking at how airlines run and I was like okay, systems, procedures structure and I kind of started melding the two and that led me into start learning to become successful as with my, my old business partner, Pete Newberg, who has been on your show, he and I built a very, very successful property management company, by understanding how to leverage those models and how to leverage systemization and then I've gone on to do a lot of other things, coaching people working with people, helping people understand the systemization of a business is very fundamental to be successful, is what I've learned and that's what I help people with.   Michael: I love that and we're gonna get into a little bit more of the systemization here in a minute. But for anyone listening, it's like, well, Steve, Michael, I'm not an extrovert. I'm more of an introvert, I'm more of an insert inside kind of person, like, Am I just doomed to never be a real estate investor like, what should I be doing if that's me?   Steve: So that's a good question because a lot of people you know, are a lot of people that go into real estate, what I've learned is they're running away from a life or job that they don't want you when you talk to real estate investors, and I coach a lot of real estate investors all over the world and when I talk to them, I'll ask them, why are you doing this, and a lot of them will tell me, I don't want this, I don't want that. They're running away from something and what they're running away from is a life that they don't want to have. Unfortunately, when you're running away from something you don't want, that's what you're focused on, and you run right back into it. I mean, that's the cycle, right because that's your filter. But what I've learned is, you don't have to be the best communicator, but you have to have good communicators on your team. There's things that I am really, really good at and there are things that I am horrible at. It's a matter of understanding, what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses, I don't think that I should become like, that's just my opinion. I don't think it makes sense to work on my weaknesses. I don't know anything about accounting, I would make a company go bankrupt if I started doing the accounting books for my business. So why should I go and take two year courses at a junior college to learn how to do books, or I just hire someone and that's what they do. So I've taken my weakness, and I've actually turned it into a strength because now I don't have to think about it, I don't have to focus on it. I have someone in place that is run by KPIs and metrics and accountability and I just, I just parceled, that whole piece of my life off.   So to answer your question, I don't think you have to be good at that. A business needs it like my business partner, Pete. He was the integrator and I was the visionary. I was the forward guy, I was the guy out in front. But I sucked at the operational side, he was like the mushroom in the in the back room and, you know, my job was to break his business all the time. It's like I wanted to have so much sales and marketing coming in, that he would go Steve, I can't take it anymore and that was like my victory lap of showing. That's the that's the sales and marketing tug of war that goes on, right and so I don't think that you have to be good at everything because the reality is, is you're not, you're probably good at one thing and you suck at everything else that you do. It's a matter of identifying what am I good at? What am I not good at leveraging out those other things and focusing on that one thing to be the very best that you can be and if you can do that, you will help the business, the organization and you'll be much happier too.   Michael: I think yeah, I think it makes a ton a ton a ton a ton of sense. So talk to Steve about like, you got three to five properties, you're looking at scaling up, you're realizing maybe a little bit more and more, you're self-managing, hey, this might be more of a job than I was anticipating I'm trying to get out of a job that people what are some systems people should be putting in place and how should they be thinking about systemization if that's a new term for them, that's never something they've done before?   Steve: Yeah, that's a great question and let, I'm going to back it up a little bit if it's okay, because a lot of people, if they have three to five properties, and I get a lot of people that will call me and ask me that question like, hey, Steve, you know, if I'm in front of them, they'll put a deal like three inches from my face and they're like, hey, is this a good deal like being closer makes it more sense? I don't know. But they'll put this right to my face and they're like, is this a good deal? Well, I don't know what a good deal is for you. So first question is, what's the goal, right? What is the date of that goal? So if they don't know the goal, and they don't have a date, and a timeline and a way to achieve that goal, I can't tell them what to do. I can't give them directions. It's kind of like if you said, hey, Steve, we're all gonna go to Disneyland and we got to be at the front gates at 8am on Friday morning and we're going to leave our house at 6am and we're going to take the 405 to the 91. Get off on Disney drive, and we're gonna go into the gates to be there ready to go. Well, if along that way, you get lost, you're gonna pull over and you're gonna go, hey, Steve, can I get directions? What's the first thing I'm going to ask you? Where are you? Where are you going? If you say, I don't know, I'm just driving around today, I'm gonna go with it. I can't help you, because I don't know where you're trying to get to. So if you take that same analogy, many people buy properties. They don't have a goal. So they say, should I buy more properties? My question is, is I don't know what's the goal? Because, you know, many people, you know, they think that owning rentals is the goal. That's just the strategy to achieve the goal. That's like saying, I'm going to get on the 405 freeway and you're going, where are you going? I don't know, I'm just gonna get on the freeway and drive and the reason I know that is when Pete and I first started buying properties, that's what we did. We were just buying properties and we're going the wrong way, in the wrong direction at a very, very fast pace and nobody stopped us to say, where are you guys going because we're just driving. We're like, we're making great time. Unfortunately, we're going in the wrong way. So to answer your question, to going back to what you're saying about systemization, every business normally has about eight to 11 systems in their business, it's a matter of looking at what you do and systemizing everything. So if you took a system and put it in a vertical, let's just say when you're going to rent a property, what is the system that it takes to rent that property, you've got to basically first thing you've got to do is maybe the first trigger of that system is when the Make ready is done. Now the property is in rent ready condition, it now triggers this system to happen. What's the first thing you got to do? Well, maybe you've got to go and take pictures and video of the property. Step one, what's the next thing you got to do? Well, then you've got to do some comps and check out the area and see what the property is renting for. That's step two. So you're going through and you're just basically talking to me, like I'm a three year old or third grader and you're explaining to me in very painstaking detail, what you're doing. These are all steps in the process of a systemization. Once you create the system all the way through to getting the property rented, once the property is rented, that system is complete. Maybe that system is 19 steps, right? Then you look at that system and go okay, is this the most efficient way to run this system, does or is there any redundancy? Is there any things that we don't even do or should not do? Are we missing some things? Now, let's say for example, this person, he, let's just say he grows and he gets an employee to do these tasks, right and or he subs it out to a company. This company needs to know very, very clearly what they're doing because the definition like look, I think we can all agree that when you own one business, or you own 50 businesses, which are rental properties, those are businesses, that you've got to treat it like a business, right? The challenge is, most people don't they don't have any systems that don't have any structure and it's chaos, which is why so many landlords get sued, because there's no systemization or standardization, meaning how you lease a property. When you're in the airlines, right, we'll go back to being an airline pilot, if I'm an airline pilot, and I came out and said, hey, everyone, this is gonna be a great day today. We're off to Hawaii. This is my first time ever doing this. So wish me luck. I'm just gonna wing it and hopefully we make it there. How would you feel?   Michael: Yeah, a little bit shaky.   Steve: Right but yeah, you'd probably be like, I'm not getting on this plane. Yeah, but that's what many people do with their rental properties and they're doing that with their financial lives, right? This is your real life, you're trusting me with your life but you don't do that with your financial life. So there's a disconnect as to the training and, and the way that you can scale because if you have to do everything in your business, you don't own a business, you own a job and a job is not scalable, because you have only so many hours in the day, and you have so much knowledge of what you're good at and what you're bad at. So I don't know if that answered the question but there's, that's a very hard thing to unpack.   Michael: No, it totally does. It totally does. Two things. First thing is I think you must be having been out of LA for a long time, because your analogy you're talking about getting on the 405 Dizzy land, you leave by six get there by eight. There's no world in which that happens today. Yeah, first and foremost. But secondly, so like, how does someone make that mindset shift because I think so many of us and specifically, it seems to be pretty pervasive in the real estate world, this DIY mentality, you know, I do it myself, do it myself, do it myself. How does, how do you make that mental leap of, okay, I'm going from doing it myself, small business owner to hiring someone or contracting it out or putting it to somebody else so I can get out of my own way?   Steve: Sure. Well, there's a couple things. Number one, you've got to you have to be willing to let go of your ego and pride, right? Because ego and pride are success inhibitors, they will kill your success quicker than anything. I should do it because I'm in charge, right and so let's go back to the goal, right? If I said, hey, what's your goal and you didn't, you didn't and this is what I use this example when I coach people, I'll tell them, okay, let's just use this as an example. I call it a 2020 2020 properties in 20 years, giving you $20,000 a month in passive income. It's a bait. It's a goal, right? Yeah, it's, it's got a time limit on it. It's something that we can attach an actual goal to and we know how we're going to achieve that goal because we have a scoreboard to see if we've made that. So that means that each property needs to be giving off $1,000 a month in passive income to get 20 properties give me $20,000 a month. Okay, that means, okay, so let we're gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer your question in a roundabout way, we've got to say, Okay, if we want to have 20 properties, that means by year 10, we have to have acquired all those properties so that from year 10, to your 20, we're going to pay those properties off, because we want them free and clear by your 20. That means between year one and year 10, we have to purchase 20 properties, which means we have to close on two properties a year, which is every six months, which means every three months, we have to be looking for deals.   My first question is, is do you have the finances to even make this happen? Do you have the do you have the financial means to achieve this goal? If they say I don't have a job, I'm gonna go well, then we're done talking because first thing you need is the financial means to make that happen. That's number one. Then we say okay, when you achieve the goal of 20 20 20, right, and we get to where we want to go, what I have learned and what many people I'm sure some people will learn, it's not a bad thing to learn. But a lot of people identify success by their accolades, meaning how much money they have in the bank, or how many properties they have, how many doors whatever they want to whatever they want to use as their gauge. That's how they quantify their success, or lack thereof. Now, I had Pete and I had a very successful property management company that we sold to a venture capital much larger firm and I can tell you that when you get that money in the bank, it is very, very, very anticlimactic. Like I mean, literally, like after we sold our company, and we sold it for well into seven figures, all of a sudden, I thought I'm done, like, oh, this is awesome. Now, mind you, I still am an airline pilot this whole time. So I'm okay financially but I thought, man, if I just if we sell this company, we're good. You don't happen Monday morning, after we sold the company?   Michael: You put on your uniform and go fly a plane.   Steve: My wife said, hey, don't forget, take the trash out the trash bin or come and I'm like, when I sold the company, like I sold my goods just like, don't give a shit. Take the trash out. So, but the point is, is like all of a sudden you think you're in some magic club like you think you break through this glass ceiling and the reality is, is nobody cares and the reason I'm saying the reason I'm going somewhere with this is that we think that once we achieve a mark or a goal that's going to make our lives complete and sadly, it doesn't, it actually makes it more hollow because you realize, like, wow, I've been doing this all these years, and nobody even cares. Like they're, you know, everyone's moving on. So what I always tell people when I talked to when I told you earlier that a lot of entrepreneurs, they buy real estate, and people want to get involved in real estate and I asked them why they say I want more freedom, right? I'm sure you've probably heard this, I want anytime freedom, do what I want, blah, blah, blah, they use this word freedom, like it means something special to them. I tell them okay, well, let me ask you this, why don't you just sell all your shit today, go live in your car at the park, and you'll have all the freedom you need. No one will bother you, you'll have your freedom. They think about that I'm like, but you know, what you won't have is you won't have the memories that you want associated with that freedom.   So we're really not buying freedom. What we're buying is memories. So when I sell a business, or I have rental properties, giving me cash flow, what am I doing with that cash flow, it's giving me the ability to have freedom to go buy the memories. It's the memories we want. So going back to your question, how does somebody step out of what they want? I would first ask them, what memories do you want to buy because at the end of the day, we're not leaving, we're not leaving this earth with anything except our memories, right? When we go when our when our expiration date happens. We're not going anywhere, except with memories in our brains. What memories do you want, right in the real estate, and the cash flow or whatever you're doing with that will give you the means to buy those memories. So buy the memories don't buy the time is you go to prison and have all the free time you want. You may not like the result, but you'll have free time by the memories, right? Go to you know, have dinner on the Mediterranean in Greece, right? Go to this African Safari, the Rolling Stones in Wembley Stadium. Those are the memories that you want and that's what real estate gives you. So going back to your question when someone says, hey, like, you know, how do I get out of it? I'm like, what memories do you want? Do you want to be an employee? That's trading time for money because that's what you're doing? I'll give you an example. So my son, he bought a rental property at 14 years old. Okay and everyone's like, oh, that's awesome. Yeah and he bought it with his money, you know and so everyone's like, man, that's awesome. That's great. Like, did you have him do the rehab and clean the house and I'm like, No. Why would I do that? They're like, so he can learn. I'm like, I don't do that. Why should I make him do that? That's being a hypocrite. I want him to be a business owner, not an employee. Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with being an employee but that's that that is not the goal of one rental property like, hey, congratulations, you want a rental property? Now go learn how to cut wood lay tile, put it insulation but dad, you don't do that. I wouldn't even know how to do that. Like, again, working on strengths versus weaknesses, right? People seem like when they get a rental property that like, all of a sudden, I've got to learn how to put a toilet in and I gotta get up on the roof and inspect it. I'm like, have you ever done that before? No and I'm like, Well, then why in the heck would you get up on a roof? If you didn't know what you're doing like this is how you become a statistic. But we think we should because of ego and pride. So that's kind of a long answer but that's my answer.   Michael: I love it, I love it a great answer. Steve, great answer. Talk to us a little bit about, like, the qualities and what you see really successful people do who are able to implement systematization like what like, what skills should people be go out there and refining in order to be able to execute here really, really well?   Steve: Well, yeah, that's a great question and I've studied a lot of very successful people. I've been coached and mentored by some very successful people and I'm a constant student, I still a mentor to this day. Anyone who says that they don't need to be coached, and they don't need to be mentored, is missing out on a lot of opportunity. I look at Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, these guys are at the top of their game, and they still have coaches and mentors. All professional athletes have coaches, you don't become a professional athlete, and then lose the coaches. They make you better.   Michael: So I'm done.   Steve: Yeah, it's like I'm done. Um, you know, even Kobe Bryant, I mean, everyone, they all have coaches. I mean, that's how it works, right? Right, it's brings the best thing out of you. So number one, I think you always have to have somebody holding you accountable and if you look at all successful people, they have accountability. They have somebody holding them accountable in somebody, you know, a three feet distance is a world of perspective, right? In the simulators. When we find the simulators and we're practicing engine failures and all these things. The simulator instructor is about three feet behind us the control panel, and we joke and he they know, they're like, yeah, I'm the smartest guy in here because I'm three feet behind you, I can see all the mistakes you guys are making. You don't see it, because you're in the heat of battle. He's like, I can see it coming a mile away. I'm the smartest guy in the room. So having somebody three feet away, is a world of perspective, having an organization help give you guidance to when you're looking to acquire a property that's giving you that three feet difference. That's a world of difference, right? So, there is a recipe for success and I'm a firm believer. If you look at all successful people, they follow a very simple recipe. It's not magic, people who are failures, they follow a recipe also and I think that every day that you wake up every day that we all wake up, we have a decision to make. It's very simple. Am I going to be better than yesterday or am I going to be worse than that, initially, is our decision that we make every day because you're not good, you're they're getting better. You're getting worse, we never stay the same ever and so when you wake up in the morning, what is the decision you're gonna make? Are you going to do any reading? Are you going to do any I'm statements? What are you going to do to focus on solution based questions slash trying to be better or are you going to be in blame excuse or denial? So going back to your question, I think that people that if you want to learn how to become better at systemization, then talk to someone who knows what they're doing and that can help you become a systems expert because, look, as an airline pilot, right? I've been I've been flying for almost 30 years, I've been trained by Boeing, I fly one of the most complicated aircraft out there a Boeing 787. I didn't, I wasn't born that way, I had to be trained and guess what, we still go back to training every six months, and we go back through all the initial stuff. So just because you reach the pinnacle, you don't stay up there and if you look at people that are successful, they're always trying to be better, just because you have three houses or five houses or 500 houses. Look, the crash to the bottom is much faster than the rise to the top, as we all know, and seen, you know, with banks crashing and other things. It's the people that are cognizant and follow that recipe and again, I don't think it's a very complicated recipe and if you look at people, you know, they do a lot of things in the one thing that I've learned, I'll give you a quick story. I was with one of my mentors one time, guys. 11 businesses, right. He's on the board of 11 businesses and he was my mentor, and we lunch and I was like, man, I don't know how you do it. Like you have 11 businesses. I'm like, how many days a week do you work? He's like, Tuesday, Thursday, and sometimes half a Friday. It was like this guy was talking Martian to me. I was like, like, how is that even possible and he goes, You know what, Steve, you know what the difference is? He says, I say No, way more than I say yes and I said, you know what, that's easy for you to say because you're this multimillionaire that has 11 businesses and he said, I would have never become this way. If I didn't start saying no and he said there's an opportunity cost that every time you say yes to something, you are saying no to something else, right.   So he goes every time you say yes to doing something that is not the most high income producing activity, you are saying no to something. He's like, it's again, he goes, it's your choice. So when I coach people, one of the things I do, and this will be a freebie for people watching is, I always have them do a two week time study, okay? So it's a very simple time study that they have to go and they have to write down for two weeks, every single thing that they do, right, you want to go on a diet, you start tracking your food, you want to see where your money's going, you go on a budget, you want to see where your time is going and start tracking it at the end of the day, they have to give me an executive summary. Tell me how your day went? I don't care. I don't care what you did. I just want to hear it from your words. Within one week, within one week, they will be like, I now know where my time is going and most people think they're so productive, like, oh, I work all day long. I'm like, bullshit, you don't work all day long. Yeah, study and we'll see. After they do the time set, he's like, man, I'm only working like three hours a day. I'm like, because everything else is reactionary. A five minute interruption, a five minute phone call is equal to 23 minutes of lost time. How many times as a as a real estate investor entrepreneur, do we get the sideways calls that interrupt our data, and they sidetrack us, if you get 10 calls a day, that's 230 minutes that you were never expecting to lose, you just lost that chunk of time. So now you're living what's called a reactive life and when you're living a reactive life, you're in chaos and when you're in chaos, you're not in control and when you're not in control, you're not making money. So the challenges is what people don't put a factor into this chaotic life, is the mental stress that it weighs on you. So once they do the first week, the second week, they have to go back in every day, they have to do this and I and just the type of coach I am, every day, they have to send me a picture of their time study and I tell them, the day you don't send this, to me is the last day you will hear from me, because I can't want it more than you like it's very simple. Like, even if you pay me all the money, you're done like that's just how it is I can't I don't have time to waste if you don't want to be better. So when they do this, the next day is they have to put an H or an L next to that high income activity, low income activity. And guess how many low income activities they do on a day?   Michael: Probably the majority…   Steve: Probably the majority. So then what we do at the end of that next week, we go, okay, these are the things that make you money. These are the things that don't we need to outsource systemize or automate the things that you don't make money on of these high income activities. Which ones do you like doing? Which ones are you good at? I like this, and this, okay, this is the focus, we need to find someone else to do these other high income activities. We don't ignore them and so my point is, is one of my mentors said that he goes TV goes understand saying no is not saying that. No, the way you think it. He goes when I say no, it just means I'm not doing it. He goes, I just make sure that other people are getting it done, but it's not through me. He goes things to have to get done in a business but he goes, it doesn't have to be you. That's your ego and pride, thinking that you have to be the one doing it all. So that was a very valuable lesson for me that I share with you, you in the listeners.   Michael: Yeah, thank you. I mean, as you're saying this, I'm just like, oh, my God, I have so many hours in my day, this is insane.   Steve: Yeah, we do. We all look, we all do. And it's a matter of stepping on the scale whenever I'm coaching someone, or someone gives me a call, like, man, I just feel like I'm losing it. I'm like, just do a time study. I mean, it sounds it sounds so simple, or whatever but I'm like just do the time study you will see very clearly, and then just fix it. Look at the pendulum swings. It's okay but you got to do something to take corrective action. Otherwise, it's going to keep swinging, it's never gonna go back on its own. You don't all of a sudden become more organized and more productive. It doesn't work that way, right? You're always gonna go back and you've got to start focusing on making that decision every day. What am I doing? You know, and it could be something simple. It could be reading for five minutes, could be writing your day could be whatever it is, but start creating habits and those habits become patterns and those patterns will change your life.   Michael: Mike drop exit stage left, Steve, that was amazing. Man, I want to be super respectful of your time. If people want to talk with you more, learn more about you reach out, have you as their coach, what's the best way for them to do so?   Steve: Yeah, they can find me on all social media handles. It's Rozenberg, Steve on Instagram, Steve Rozenberg on all the other stuff. They can also go to my website. My website is https://steverozenberg.com/ , it's ROZENBERG.com and you know, I do a lot of coaching. I do three day masterminds with very high level, people like Bradley, the iron cowboy, other people, I bring them in. It's all about mindset and it's all about, you know, the one thing I'll say real quick before we go and I want to be respectful of your time is don't be selfish, and to the people watching and what I mean by that is as entrepreneurs, we watch these shows, right? We buy real estate, we do all these things, and we do it for the people that we love but here's the thing, we never actually share the knowledge that we've learned with the people we're doing it for. To me, that's the definition of being selfish be selfless. Like I said, my son bought his first rental property and 14, create generational wealth, right? Bring them into the loop. Don't be selfish, because when you're selfish, you're isolating yourself, have an open mind and the ability to give abundance and share the knowledge that you learned from this podcast, show reading, bring the family that you're doing it for into the mix, and you will have a much, much more fulfilled life and you'll be much more successful not just financially, but personally relationship and all that stuff. So don't be selfish.   Michael: Yeah. I love that, Steve and one more final question before I let you go. You mentioned you're running a mastermind and I think a lot of our listeners maybe have been to how to coach or been to seminars or been in real estate trainings, and just whoever reason can't implement it. They take the classroom knowledge, but they can't execute a role. So what have you seen people do who are really successful at that and actually applying what they've learned and taking that excitement and went out and actually ran with it…   Steve: That's a good question. So and the reason I created my mastermind is that very reason, right? Everybody goes there, rah, rah, they leave in there, like two weeks later, they're like, it's in their car underneath their seats, all the dogs chewing on it and so what I do when I do my masterminds is once they're done, they get unlimited coaching from me, they get my phone, they get my text, they get my email, if they need me, they call me. So I'm there as accountability for them every single day. It's not that hey, I know you have a problem Monday morning with a tenant exploding your house but we're supposed talk Thursday at three so call me then that doesn't work in the real world. I don't think that that's a very successful model. I give unlimited so that they have me and they have me as accountability. I think the biggest challenge when you leave these events and coaching is the accountability part. If the coach if you have a coach and he's not accountable, find them accountability person, one of the things I do when I coach partners is I have a board of directors meeting, I create a board of directors for them going over the P&I statements going over balance sheets, going over the goals. This is what you need to do in any organization, all businesses do it. Most people don't. So if you can't make your coach be accountable, or you can't afford a coach or whatever the case may be find a friend, a family member or go to the bum on the corner. I don't care but make someone hold you accountable that you actually have to answer for what you're doing and I think if you're accountable, based on what you learned, that's why I do unlimited coaching, you're going to be much more successful with achieving the goals that you set out to achieve.   Michael: Makes total sense, Steve, this was a total, total blast, man, thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with me. I really, really appreciate it.   Steve: Thank you, man. It's good having you appreciate you having me on.   Michael: Hey, we'll definitely talk soon.   All right, when that was episode, a big thank you to Steve for coming on super, super, super great stuff. As he was talking. I was like, oh my God, I need to start doing a lot more of what Steve is talking about. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts and we look forward to seeing you on the next one. Happy investing…

It is all systems go for Amanda's April 2023 wedding day and with the planning of weddings being what it is right now, the early start landed her the perfect venue and all the highly sought-after vendors she needed for an exceptional and memorable event! Tune in to this episode as co-hosts Kristina, Mike & Sharon talk with daughter Amanda and mother of the bride Nancy to hear about their planning journey, what they are most excited about, the budget, the vendors, the compromises made along the way and one very poignant statement from Nancy about wanting to just focus on and be the mother of the bride on wedding day… and let the wedding pros do the rest!Timestamps:• [17:31] Michael “You know, you're gonna have bumps in the road no matter what. But just keep in mind that your mother and daughter, and that's more important than getting mad and having a fight over something stupid, because it's all about that one single day. And I think that's most important.”• [18:37] Nancy “So wedding planner was extremely important for me because I wanted to make sure that Amanda and I had a great relationship the day after her wedding, like we did the day or the year before her wedding. So maybe that was huge. And since she works full time I work full time we both have homes to run. I can't you know I can't dedicate as much time so plug for Sharon, she takes care of everything.”• [21:00] Sharon “I tell my clients is that I will save you more money than you will pay me because I know what we're going to pay for. I know what I'm not going to let them pay for. I know what I think is super, super important. And of course, it's what they you know what they want.”• [25:50] Kristina “DJ is it's going to run your event. And it should be someone that you click with, that you feel comfortable”For more information on The Ring The Bling And All The Things Podcast, visit: https://www.ringblingallthethingspodcast.com/Kristina StubblefieldCoaching & consulting: https://kristinastubblefield.com/Website: https://www.ringblingallthethingspodcast.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theringtheblingandallthethingsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/theringtheblingandallthethings/The Ring The Bling And All The Things Community Platform: https://www.ringblingallthethings.com/Michael GaddieWebsite: https://www.lloydsflorist.net/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lloydsflorist/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lloydsflorist/ Sharon RumseyWebsite: https://aperfectplanevents.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/APerfectPlanKentuckiana/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aperfectplaneventskentuckiana/

Patrick Shares an article about prayer being forced upon employees Daniel - Can I officiate a non-Catholic ceremony? The parties in question aren't Catholic Email from Kevin – Regarding the use of the word “insane” Email from Michael – You are always calm when talking with callers Email from Adina – Hill song music doesn't conform with the liturgy of the mass. Patrick talks about the Highland Park mass shooting John - Why is SSPX separated from the Church? Email from JoAnne – Need help finding a segment on your show Mary - I found a desecrated host this weekend. I asked the priest to take it. If there wasn't a priest there, what should I have done? Email from Maria – Can you recommend a place in CA to do a Spiritual retreat? Email from Paul – We have been experience weird things in our home for a while. Can we do a cleaning in our home on occasion?

Dana Dunford is the CEO of Hemlane Property Management and a real estate investor. In today's episode we discuss market conditions, interest rates, what is happening in the stock market, and what the current moment means for real estate investors. If you are wondering if it is the right time to purchase an investment property, you will want to listen to this episode. Links: Hemlane.com --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The remote real estate investor podcast is for informational purposes only and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum, and today I'm joined by Dana Dunford, co founder and CEO of Hemlane Property Management. And today Dana is gonna be talking to us about the state of the economy and some things that investors should be aware of and thinking about as we move forward in today's market. So let's get into it.   Dana Dunford, welcome back again to The Remote Real Estate Investor. Thanks for coming on and hanging out with me.   Dana: Great. Thanks for having me. Again, Michael.   Michael: Oh, my gosh, it is such a pleasure. You are great friend of the pod. Great friend of Roofstock. For those who might not be familiar with you give us the Quick, quick and dirty background of who you are. And background on yourself.   Dana: Yeah, so I'm Dana Dunford. I'm here in San Francisco. So just right across the bridge from rootstock. I have been in technology for gosh, now we're going on 18 years. So I'm a tech veteran, which we'll be talking about tonight, today, which I'm excited about. And on top of that, I'm in property management. So we're a tech platform for property management, and partner of Roofstock's. And we've seen what has been going on since q1, the market softening things changing in technology. So I think this is going to be a great call, because both Roofstock and Hemlane have seen it firsthand. And hopefully this gives some insight into what, what the upcoming year is going to look like for all real estate investors out there.   Michael: Totally. And just to give some people, some additional color, you are CEO, co founder of Hemlane, and you just did your series A, what was it q3 of 2021 or q4 of 2021?   Dana: Q4, so we raised at the perfect timing, those who are not in venture and the tech world of Silicon Valley. We couldn't have timed it better. You know, right now, and we'll talk about this today. Right now, the market is really softening. There's just less capital going into startups. We can't say this was people were already predicting this. So back in q3, and q4 venture capitalists were already saying, Ooh, there's a lot of money pouring into this valuations are really high. And some had already started pulling back. But it wasn't until what happened in the public markets, where you know, trillions of dollars were taken out of these Sass companies, valuations are overall the market cap, that suddenly the venture world that trickled down and people really started to pull back capital. So yeah, we raised back then roofstock, when was your guys's last raise? Because you guys are at a later stage. And so obviously, also impacted by this and quite, potentially, more significantly than us.   Michael: I think we got our term sheet squared away in in q4, as well. So right around that same perfect timing with money getting wired in coming in and in q1.   Dana: Yeah, perfect. So you guys will be able to weather the storm with that what we're going to be talking about soon here.   Michael: Yep, absolutely. I'm thinking so. Okay, so let's talk about how, like, how did we get here, because you're mentioning that trillions of dollars have been essentially taken off the table in terms of market cap. But for those people that aren't familiar with the space that haven't maybe been following along as closely, what like, where are we today? And can you give us some insight and background as to how you think we got here?   Dana: Yeah, so first of all, I believe most people on this podcast today listening are real estate investors. And so all of you hopefully got in when interest rates were super low, just artificially low, right? We never seen interest rates below 3% for so long. And one that was fantastic for real estate, right? You could get a rental properties at afford a higher price because your interest rate is much lower your loan. And then for startups and for companies money was much more free it was much more flowing. What we ended up seeing happen which most people predicted this would happen. But no one knew when or at least I haven't heard of any economists who knew this was going to happen exactly. We're in March, but we started seeing the inflation go through the roof, you know, 8.6%. And it's been consistent where we have seen the inflation rate really, really high.   And so the only way for the Fed to essentially combat that was obviously, to increase interest rates, which we are all seeing now are all seen in our real estate itself, doesn't mean there aren't great deals out there. So Mike, like, do you want us to talk about that, because I still think there's great deals out there that you guys have on the platform, and now could be a really good time to buy. So don't let that taint your decision of whether or not you should go into real estate.   But with that, as you know, when the Fed raises interest rates, consumer spending just goes down, that will probably people will spend less, and also things are more expensive. And so once you have that happen, the stock market's inversely correlated to interest rates. And so once interest rates went up, there was a correction in the stock market. Why it affects us on the private company side so much is Roofstock and Hemlane are both considered growth companies. And what happened was essentially, in the public markets, so any public company, there's basically two different types, there's growth, just like us, companies like Roofstock, that have gone public. And then there are value companies and the value companies are much more stable. They're based on their cash flow. They're typically larger, older companies, and their price is based on their sales. So their price is relatively low relative to sales, in companies like that, or like Bank of America, if you think about it, and RG like gas companies like very stable, steady businesses, where you're not going to see   Michael: Blue chip companies.   Dana: Yeah, your blue chip companies where you're not going to see, you know, 500% growth year over year. But what ends up happening is when the interest rates go up like that, and stocks go down, the ones that get devalued, the most are the growth stage companies. And the growth stage companies are companies like Roofstock, and heavily that are public. And so what we basically saw happen was this huge, huge cut in market cap in the public markets. And so for SAS company software as a service where you go, you pay a subscription every month to use a service, the market cap cap got cut by $1 trillion dollars from November of 2021. Until today, and so what that did was essentially, these companies thought they were worth a lot more.   And you know, some of them, like the stripes of the world, in the snowflakes had these really high revenue multiples, and suddenly, those just deteriorated. And the multiple based of what their valuation is versus their, their revenue went down. And that essentially trickled down to private companies like us as well. And so now when a company goes out to raise capital in q1, q2, primarily, now it's even, it's even worse. And what we're foreseeing in q3 is that you might have had a 10x, revenue multiple, so your valuation, it's 10x, what your revenue is, that's how it used to be.   Now you go out to a venture capitalist, and they're like, great, you're worth 3x, or 5x. So much lower valuation. And so what they're, they're expecting is a lot of down rounds, a lot of startup saying, If I can, let me just hold on to my cash, let me cut my bird, let me try to raise later and better times. And all of this impacts the economy, because it was the public markets that were hit. And now it's also the private companies where we are in Silicon Valley. And I do think this, this trickles a bit to real estate. It's it's a different type of market correction that we saw in 2008. In 2008, it was housing right and the mortgage crisis today, I think this is a lot more like the.com bubble. This is very similar to the.com bubble of these really high tech valuations that need to be corrected. And so when you think about purchasing real estate, I actually think that's why Roofstock is such a fantastic place to go. Because you're getting out of the tech scene, you're going to other markets and purchasing there.   Michael: It's so interesting. But then so I'm curious, we talk so often about in real estate that the price is only a factor, or it's only important if you're doing something with the property if you're buying selling refinancing, because otherwise you're just having a cash flow, and that often is independent of what the value is of the company, or excuse me, the property. So why does that matter? or for companies like the fact that there's the company is now worth less, unless they're trying to do something buy, sell, or refinance or raise, raise, raise capital, like, why does that matter?   Dana: So it doesn't matter for Roofstock. And it doesn't matter for Hemlane, because we just raised, we have enough capital to weather this storm. But imagine a company that raised and they had a, let's just give the case of like the stripes of the world 100x Multiple. And let's just say it's a private company, with 100x, multiple, and now they're going back out, and they're now getting a 10x. Multiple, they could have what we call a down round, where suddenly they are worth less than they were before. And that gives a lot less confidence. One the company itself, right? The amount that you're giving up as a founder, as an employee, as an existing investor, it's a lot more just to get in the same amount of capital you wanted to historically, in so what you're seeing is these companies really, really tighten the ship, and just say, Okay, we're going to stop hiring as many people, we're really going to look at our expenses. And that means there's not more money pouring into, you know, hiring 100 people every week, they're suddenly going back and thinking about who are the strategic hires, we really need? Should we be letting go? You've seen the massive tech layoffs where it's, you know, 20% of the workforce. And now suddenly, they're really tightening their books, because cash is king right? Now, you want to hold on to that cash? Because the last thing you want to do is go out and have a lower valuation.   Michael: Yeah. Okay. Well, that makes sense. And so talk to us a little bit about why this is affecting real estate investors or why real estate investors should even care about this that's going on?   Dana: Yeah. So I always think there's a huge opportunity when there's like the Warren Buffett, quote, right? be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful. I think right now everyone's scared. And there's a lot of real estate investors, like we actually just did a survey at Hemlane, where majority were saying we're not going to purchase in the next 12 months, because interest rates have gone up we should have gotten any year ago. Well, you know, the best time to get into real estate was 10 years ago, and the next best time is today, I think there's going to be a lot of great deals out there. I think that while others are tightening up, other investors are scared, this is a time for you to be really aggressive. I mean, still looking at your pro forma and and follow your numbers. But you'll be able to find some some great deals out there.   Michael: I've heard a lot of sentiment around, you can always change your interest rate, but you can never change your purchase price. So if someone is getting into a deal today, at an interest rate that's a little bit higher than they're comfortable with. But they anticipate interest rates to come down at some point down the road. What are your thoughts there?   Dana: Yeah, you can always refinance. I mean, don't do a deal hoping that interest rates go down, and you can refinance it or fudge the numbers on your spreadsheet. This is why   Michael: I was hoping that's what you were gonna say.   Dana: Yeah, like this is I mean, this is why I'm, I'm more conservative than most in every property purchases had a fixed rate. I don't do adjustable. But I can refinance, right? So I can always refinance. But I want to know what I'm getting into. So when you do your pro forma, do it with whatever the interest rate is now and consider it a huge advantage and just like increased cash flow, if you can refinance in the future, will interest rates go back to this like artificially low rate that we saw over the past five years, maybe not. But I don't think that is a reason not to purchase now. You do your numbers, and you look at it just because you might say property values are really high interest rates are going up, now's not a good time to buy. That's just laziness. Like, honestly, that's just you being lazy and not wanting to do the work.   There's always great deals out there. You just have to do the work, find them look at the numbers and say even with this increased interest rate, it's still a great deal. I'm still cash flowing and I've got a great cap rate, and you can go ahead and purchase. So I don't think of this as the time really to, to change your decisions on real estate. And part of that has to do with I think, you know, some markets will soften. Some markets may remain flat for a while but that doesn't mean that you're not getting the cash flow and having a great investment that by the way, with inflation where it is If it continues, having an asset where the value goes up with inflation, so I still think now's a great time to purchase real estate. And you might be able to get some fantastic deals as other investors are pulling out, you can really, really go in and get those great deals.   Michael; Love it. And Dana, I'm curious if because we've seen prices go through the roof, and interest rates have also gone up significantly, there might be a bit of a lead lag measure until we see prices come down. So in in terms of looking for different markets, I mean, are you targeting markets that are continuing to grow? Are you targeting markets that maybe are seeing some of that softening in terms of pricing?   Dana: So for us, we go where the real estate investors are. So if there's a real estate investor there, right, we're going to do the property management for them. I think when you're when you're thinking about the lag, that is definitely true. I've heard this with other real estate investors, I've seen it myself, where you see a price. And with interest rates up, the seller puts one price out there, because that's what it was two weeks ago. And suddenly, it's not worth that much. It's worth like 10% 20%. Last, but it's actually really good to put yourself into the position of the seller, and of the real estate agent, because you can actually get some really, really good deals off of that.   And what I mean by it is real estate investors have always told historically, have told their buyers in the past couple of years. If your mark, if your property is on market for over two weeks, people might think there's something wrong with that. And so, you know, we're going to ask for offers on X date, right, like X date and two weeks, or maybe we'll do one week, we're going to ask for offers. Well, if they've missed priced the property, you might be able to go in and you don't know this, but you might be the only offer because they priced it way too high, because we priced it from a purchase price from two weeks ago. And now that has suddenly changed like the market changes every two weeks, it really is. And you could go in and get a great deal. And so I think from from that perspective, there are still fantastic deals out there. But you have to be patient. And some of it will be that luck, where you get the right deal, though what else has gone into, and you can go ahead and purchase that.   So if you put yourself in the other shoes, you might see that you also see a lot of people you know why I don't think it's like 2008 and 2009 is people have a lot more equity in their properties because one value values have gone up. And then two, the interest rates were really low, people could afford more put more money in the market was booming. And so what we're seeing is that more people have equity in them. And at some point, it's emotional for someone, they're like, I just want to get rid of this asset, because I'm gonna go buy another one, or I just really want to move out of the city and move somewhere else. And, you know, to them, maybe 20 To 50 to $70,000 is not a lot depending on what it is. But that is a lot to you. And that changes, changes the numbers on your spreadsheet significantly.   And so I mean, with that purchase price, obviously that matters. But just because the price is out on the market for a property doesn't mean that the price is going to sell for. And so it would be a really good time to go out and experiment with that you will know your market better than anyone else, whatever market you're in, because it will take you bidding on like five properties. And maybe people will laugh at you like your first one, you go like 20% under and they laugh at you. But maybe you get lucky on the fifth one, and you'll get a great deal. But yeah, just follow the numbers in your spreadsheet don't have a purchase price, that doesn't make sense and you're not cash flowing. Or don't change the interest rate hoping that it will go down to that to that amount.   Michael: Yeah, that makes total sense. And speaking of spreadsheet numbers, are you seeing a lot of your investor clients that you work with adjusting their expectations around cash on cash returns? Now that prices and interest rates are up?   Dana: So not really I think most investors like most of the savvy ones we work with, we work with his sort of two different types of of customers, those who had properties just handed to them. And they actually never did the analysis like pan downs from parents and things like that. And then others   Michael: Accidental landlords.   Dana: Accidental Yes. And then others who are very strategic real estate investors and what we have found with them as they have the capital and they might not be they might be with inflation to your point Michael being like, Oh, maybe I should just go buy something because the dollar today is worth less On tomorrow, but no, I actually think most real estate investors are still saying, this is the deal that I got, historically, I want to get something like that. And so they're not changing those expectations on cash on cash return, but they might be going somewhere else. So they go to Roofstock, and they say, Okay, I, you know, couldn't find this property, you know, in my backyard, but on Roofstock, they do have the cash on cash return that I that I that I targeting. And so I do think they're not changing their expectations. But they are going out and finding alternative ways to get the numbers they need.   There's one case, Michael, where I find people change their expectations. And it's first time real estate investors to just get their foot in the door. And I'm actually okay with that. I think that there's too many people who, and for anyone who's listening to this, who doesn't have a real estate investment, you kind of sit there and you kind of fantasize about getting one and then you put so much like anxiety into getting your first property. And once you have your first you're like, oh, okay, that's what I got, here's what it is. And it makes it easier, where then you can go and purchase more properties and more properties. And you know, what you're looking for, and you know what the return was, and you have this process set up.   But the first one is really difficult to get into. So I find that those people today are changing their expectations, for certain metrics just to get into the market, before it's too late. Interest rates go up more, or you know, they're kind of kicking themselves that they didn't get in, you know, four years ago, five years ago. So I only think it's first time real estate investors where that's happening. And I'm actually okay with that. Because I think if you can get more people into real estate investing, and more people to just get their foot in the door, you're going to learn so much off of that first property, that then you're going to say, Okay, this was my cap rate for my first property. My next one, I have to at least have that or better and you kind of improve, you know, it's kind of like dating, you never like you don't date someone who's great. And then like the next person is like a downgrade, you kind of have the standard. And you're like, I can only go up from there. It's the same exact thing with real estate investing. So I really think it's only first time homebuyers where that happens are real estate investors for rental properties?   Michael: Yep, I think and I think that makes tons of sense. It's something that I hear all the time. It's Michael, I'm trying to get my first deal done and has to be amazing. And you know, it has to be a Grand Slam? Like? Don't worry about the grand slams, let's practice getting on base first. And then you'll know how to swing for   Dana: Exactly, exactly. And it makes it a lot easier when you have one property in that area. You know your market a bit more, and then you can kind of purchase some more around at.   Michael: Yep. Yeah, I think it makes him think that's totally right. And so Dana, we're kind of at this like crossroads where we're talking about, some investors are pressing pause on their acquisitions. And then this whole other cohort of investors are like, Oh, crap, I gotta get into the market before interest rates go up further before prices go up further. So it does feel like there's this pressure to buy or there's frenzy to buy, on the one hand, and then there's this whole other group, that's again, kind of taking a step back and saying, let's, let's wait and see what happens. How do you square those two?   Dana: Well, to me, I'm like a pretty unemotional real estate investor. And I feel like for anyone, whatever segment you fall into, you still have to go back to the numbers and see what makes sense. And so I mean, is there a right way to go? I think one people who are not going out, and they're using this as an excuse not to purchase properties, or just being lazy, honestly. And for those who are out there saying, I gotta get in and get my next deal. I think they're almost too emotional. Where they might go in and change the numbers to your point of saying, like, oh, it's not, you know, my last deal was was better than this, but I just need to get my foot in the door. Maybe that's not the right approach to have, it's, Hey, there's gonna be a deal out there. I might have to be a little bit more patient during this the for the next three to six months, I have to be patient, I have to understand what's going on.   But yeah, I just kind of go back to the numbers. I think in both cases, they're they're taking emotion and what's happening in the market and using that, like the macro for the micro. And instead of saying, You know what, I know what is a good deal, here's what it looks like on paper. Let me continue to go search until I find that and it might take you a little bit longer to find it. Or you might find a process like oh, wow, I can, you know, go 20% under and get lucky on a deal off of this, whatever the home price is, I could, you know, undercut them and give them an offer and maybe they'll take it to get that great deal.   Um, But I don't I think both categories are bad. I think someone who says I have to get my foot in the door. Before interest rates go up is emotional. I think someone who says there are no great deals out there are just lazy. And so I kind of fall somewhere in between of saying, yeah, just be financially prudent as you always should be with your real estate investment investments, know your market, know what numbers numbers you need, and make sure you're a little bit more conservative. Like, I know, a couple investors with adjustable rate mortgages that did them, you know, back when interest rates were really low. And I bet they feel pretty stupid right now. So   Michael: we won't name names,   Dana: Won't name names here.   Michael: Well, I'd be very interested to meet the the emotionally lazy person, because it sounds like those are two opposite ends of the spectrum. Yeah, I have to see. Okay. And last thing that I want to ask you about is around expectations. If someone is newer to the investment space, they may be looking to get their first deal done. Everyone around them, their sister, their brother, aunts, uncles in this market are making 10% cash on cash. Yeah, pick a number. Nice round number 10%. And they're like their expectation was was 15%. Right, for whatever reason, that's what makes them tick. That's what gets them excited about an investment. Everyone around them is making 10%. So how the how should investors be thinking about not looking at other people, and just focusing on what's good for them, but also not being blind and naive to what a market is really able to produce? In terms of In other words, like, they I want someone to be excited about the returns that they're getting, but I also want them to be realistic. How do you kind of how do you?   Dana: So the biggest thing I would say to throttle that is, most likely you've sort of selected a market because you've looked at, okay, where is and I mean, Roofstock does this for you, and you guys, I think have some great shows from like every single market of why why you guys are looking at a certain market. So that helps. But you as a real estate investor are gonna say worse population growth? And why like, is more industry going there? Like maybe an Amazon facility was just put into place? Does it have fed, ed's and meds? Like, is it stable, even recession proof, especially now? So you kind of go through and figure out why am I excited about this market? And you just start there? And like, don't forget about your, I mean, 15% cash on cash return? Like, let's just forget about all of that and just go through? What looking at macro, and now we're kind of going to micro to like city level?   Why do I think this is going to be a lot a good market in five to 10 years, because you're going to hold on to these properties and purchase more, right? Do that first, then you say, Okay, this is my market, then what you're going to do is for two to three months, you're going to look at all the deals there, go on Roofstock, I think you could set up alerts because I have those that go to my email that essentially like tell you here's a new property in that market, great purchase. Um, you're gonna go through and you might the first couple of properties, say you know what? Those, those don't really hit my cash on cash return expectations, but now you're starting to know your market and you're gonna see a trend, are they going up? Are they going down? And you can look at that over time to make an unemotional decision that is based on data.   I think that is the most important thing to do. When someone gets in this frenzy of I need this cash on cash return shoot, I'm not going to get it. So I'm just going to slash it. And I'm going to say now I need, you know, seven or 8% I and you're just becoming emotional. But if you go through look at the numbers and you say okay, great, I wanted 15% You know, my friends are getting 10% I'm and you're you change those expectations. And suddenly you say, Okay, I made this decision, and here's my cash on cash return. But I knew at that time, that was the best I could do. Because I looked at the data, then suddenly you never go back and wish you had done it differently. Because you have something that is non non emotional to back you up. And don't compare yourself to other real estate investors. I've seen real estate investors in the past four to five years who've been super successful, who are super stupid.   And the reason they were successful and I hate to say that but like there's so many people out there because basically it was free money like there was so much investment it was there was so much easy money from investors that I saw way too many people also going into real estate. A lot of actually on the fix and flip side that just got lucky because yeah, money was basically free to do a fix and flip and a The home prices were going up astronomically. And they feel like they're the smartest people in the room.   Well, maybe they were at that time, but like, give it two to three months, maybe six months, and the story might change. And so that's why I think it's hard at like one point in time, if you're just getting started to compare yourself to those around you, I don't think you should do that. I think you should just be financially prudent, and make sure that you're not overextending yourself. And you know, your market. And you know why you made the decision, you see you did, and it's all based off those numbers. And it's based off the numbers, but also you need to know the market, like you need to know you guys have neighborhood scores and ratings, that kind of stuff of like, here's why I only invest in neighborhoods that have three stars, or greater, or whatever it may be like it, write all of this stuff out, and take a really methodical approach to your assets, your real estate investing, and I don't think you'll regret it. Like, I don't think you're gonna go back and say, Oh, I really wish I would have gotten that 15% I targeted?   Michael; I think that is like spot on. Thank you so much. And if you missed it, if you missed any part of that, go back, rewind the last three minutes, and listen to that again, cuz I think that's a lot of gold in there. Then this was super fun. As always, if people want to reach out more, find out more about you or hemline. Where's the best place for them to do that?   Dana: Yeah, you can go on to Roofstock when you purchase a property, how many will be listed as a property manager? So go go ahead and do that. You can also go to Hemlane.com. And my email is dana@hemlane.com. So I love hearing from people.   Michael: Awesome. Well, thank you again, and very much looking forward to having you on. Again, I'm sure take care of we'll chat soon.   Dana: Great. Yeah, I'm excited in six months for us to see if we were if we stand corrected on what's going on in the market.   Michael: I know it'd be very interesting. Well keep close tabs on it.   Dana: Great. Thanks so much for having me.   Michael: You got it, take care.   Okay, everyone, and that was our episode A big thank you to Dana for coming on as always big friend of the pod as we were saying at the beginning of the show. As always, if you liked the episode, we'd love to hear from you all with a rating and review and we look forward to seeing the next one. Happy investing

Dana Dunford is the CEO of Hemlane Property Management and a real estate investor. In today's episode we discuss market conditions, interest rates, what is happening in the stock market, and what the current moment means for real estate investors. If you are wondering if it is the right time to purchase an investment property, you will want to listen to this episode. Links: Hemlane.com --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The remote real estate investor podcast is for informational purposes only and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum, and today I'm joined by Dana Dunford, co founder and CEO of Hemlane Property Management. And today Dana is gonna be talking to us about the state of the economy and some things that investors should be aware of and thinking about as we move forward in today's market. So let's get into it.   Dana Dunford, welcome back again to The Remote Real Estate Investor. Thanks for coming on and hanging out with me.   Dana: Great. Thanks for having me. Again, Michael.   Michael: Oh, my gosh, it is such a pleasure. You are great friend of the pod. Great friend of Roofstock. For those who might not be familiar with you give us the Quick, quick and dirty background of who you are. And background on yourself.   Dana: Yeah, so I'm Dana Dunford. I'm here in San Francisco. So just right across the bridge from rootstock. I have been in technology for gosh, now we're going on 18 years. So I'm a tech veteran, which we'll be talking about tonight, today, which I'm excited about. And on top of that, I'm in property management. So we're a tech platform for property management, and partner of Roofstock's. And we've seen what has been going on since q1, the market softening things changing in technology. So I think this is going to be a great call, because both Roofstock and Hemlane have seen it firsthand. And hopefully this gives some insight into what, what the upcoming year is going to look like for all real estate investors out there.   Michael: Totally. And just to give some people, some additional color, you are CEO, co founder of Hemlane, and you just did your series A, what was it q3 of 2021 or q4 of 2021?   Dana: Q4, so we raised at the perfect timing, those who are not in venture and the tech world of Silicon Valley. We couldn't have timed it better. You know, right now, and we'll talk about this today. Right now, the market is really softening. There's just less capital going into startups. We can't say this was people were already predicting this. So back in q3, and q4 venture capitalists were already saying, Ooh, there's a lot of money pouring into this valuations are really high. And some had already started pulling back. But it wasn't until what happened in the public markets, where you know, trillions of dollars were taken out of these Sass companies, valuations are overall the market cap, that suddenly the venture world that trickled down and people really started to pull back capital. So yeah, we raised back then roofstock, when was your guys's last raise? Because you guys are at a later stage. And so obviously, also impacted by this and quite, potentially, more significantly than us.   Michael: I think we got our term sheet squared away in in q4, as well. So right around that same perfect timing with money getting wired in coming in and in q1.   Dana: Yeah, perfect. So you guys will be able to weather the storm with that what we're going to be talking about soon here.   Michael: Yep, absolutely. I'm thinking so. Okay, so let's talk about how, like, how did we get here, because you're mentioning that trillions of dollars have been essentially taken off the table in terms of market cap. But for those people that aren't familiar with the space that haven't maybe been following along as closely, what like, where are we today? And can you give us some insight and background as to how you think we got here?   Dana: Yeah, so first of all, I believe most people on this podcast today listening are real estate investors. And so all of you hopefully got in when interest rates were super low, just artificially low, right? We never seen interest rates below 3% for so long. And one that was fantastic for real estate, right? You could get a rental properties at afford a higher price because your interest rate is much lower your loan. And then for startups and for companies money was much more free it was much more flowing. What we ended up seeing happen which most people predicted this would happen. But no one knew when or at least I haven't heard of any economists who knew this was going to happen exactly. We're in March, but we started seeing the inflation go through the roof, you know, 8.6%. And it's been consistent where we have seen the inflation rate really, really high.   And so the only way for the Fed to essentially combat that was obviously, to increase interest rates, which we are all seeing now are all seen in our real estate itself, doesn't mean there aren't great deals out there. So Mike, like, do you want us to talk about that, because I still think there's great deals out there that you guys have on the platform, and now could be a really good time to buy. So don't let that taint your decision of whether or not you should go into real estate.   But with that, as you know, when the Fed raises interest rates, consumer spending just goes down, that will probably people will spend less, and also things are more expensive. And so once you have that happen, the stock market's inversely correlated to interest rates. And so once interest rates went up, there was a correction in the stock market. Why it affects us on the private company side so much is Roofstock and Hemlane are both considered growth companies. And what happened was essentially, in the public markets, so any public company, there's basically two different types, there's growth, just like us, companies like Roofstock, that have gone public. And then there are value companies and the value companies are much more stable. They're based on their cash flow. They're typically larger, older companies, and their price is based on their sales. So their price is relatively low relative to sales, in companies like that, or like Bank of America, if you think about it, and RG like gas companies like very stable, steady businesses, where you're not going to see   Michael: Blue chip companies.   Dana: Yeah, your blue chip companies where you're not going to see, you know, 500% growth year over year. But what ends up happening is when the interest rates go up like that, and stocks go down, the ones that get devalued, the most are the growth stage companies. And the growth stage companies are companies like Roofstock, and heavily that are public. And so what we basically saw happen was this huge, huge cut in market cap in the public markets. And so for SAS company software as a service where you go, you pay a subscription every month to use a service, the market cap cap got cut by $1 trillion dollars from November of 2021. Until today, and so what that did was essentially, these companies thought they were worth a lot more.   And you know, some of them, like the stripes of the world, in the snowflakes had these really high revenue multiples, and suddenly, those just deteriorated. And the multiple based of what their valuation is versus their, their revenue went down. And that essentially trickled down to private companies like us as well. And so now when a company goes out to raise capital in q1, q2, primarily, now it's even, it's even worse. And what we're foreseeing in q3 is that you might have had a 10x, revenue multiple, so your valuation, it's 10x, what your revenue is, that's how it used to be.   Now you go out to a venture capitalist, and they're like, great, you're worth 3x, or 5x. So much lower valuation. And so what they're, they're expecting is a lot of down rounds, a lot of startup saying, If I can, let me just hold on to my cash, let me cut my bird, let me try to raise later and better times. And all of this impacts the economy, because it was the public markets that were hit. And now it's also the private companies where we are in Silicon Valley. And I do think this, this trickles a bit to real estate. It's it's a different type of market correction that we saw in 2008. In 2008, it was housing right and the mortgage crisis today, I think this is a lot more like the.com bubble. This is very similar to the.com bubble of these really high tech valuations that need to be corrected. And so when you think about purchasing real estate, I actually think that's why Roofstock is such a fantastic place to go. Because you're getting out of the tech scene, you're going to other markets and purchasing there.   Michael: It's so interesting. But then so I'm curious, we talk so often about in real estate that the price is only a factor, or it's only important if you're doing something with the property if you're buying selling refinancing, because otherwise you're just having a cash flow, and that often is independent of what the value is of the company, or excuse me, the property. So why does that matter? or for companies like the fact that there's the company is now worth less, unless they're trying to do something buy, sell, or refinance or raise, raise, raise capital, like, why does that matter?   Dana: So it doesn't matter for Roofstock. And it doesn't matter for Hemlane, because we just raised, we have enough capital to weather this storm. But imagine a company that raised and they had a, let's just give the case of like the stripes of the world 100x Multiple. And let's just say it's a private company, with 100x, multiple, and now they're going back out, and they're now getting a 10x. Multiple, they could have what we call a down round, where suddenly they are worth less than they were before. And that gives a lot less confidence. One the company itself, right? The amount that you're giving up as a founder, as an employee, as an existing investor, it's a lot more just to get in the same amount of capital you wanted to historically, in so what you're seeing is these companies really, really tighten the ship, and just say, Okay, we're going to stop hiring as many people, we're really going to look at our expenses. And that means there's not more money pouring into, you know, hiring 100 people every week, they're suddenly going back and thinking about who are the strategic hires, we really need? Should we be letting go? You've seen the massive tech layoffs where it's, you know, 20% of the workforce. And now suddenly, they're really tightening their books, because cash is king right? Now, you want to hold on to that cash? Because the last thing you want to do is go out and have a lower valuation.   Michael: Yeah. Okay. Well, that makes sense. And so talk to us a little bit about why this is affecting real estate investors or why real estate investors should even care about this that's going on?   Dana: Yeah. So I always think there's a huge opportunity when there's like the Warren Buffett, quote, right? be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful. I think right now everyone's scared. And there's a lot of real estate investors, like we actually just did a survey at Hemlane, where majority were saying we're not going to purchase in the next 12 months, because interest rates have gone up we should have gotten any year ago. Well, you know, the best time to get into real estate was 10 years ago, and the next best time is today, I think there's going to be a lot of great deals out there. I think that while others are tightening up, other investors are scared, this is a time for you to be really aggressive. I mean, still looking at your pro forma and and follow your numbers. But you'll be able to find some some great deals out there.   Michael: I've heard a lot of sentiment around, you can always change your interest rate, but you can never change your purchase price. So if someone is getting into a deal today, at an interest rate that's a little bit higher than they're comfortable with. But they anticipate interest rates to come down at some point down the road. What are your thoughts there?   Dana: Yeah, you can always refinance. I mean, don't do a deal hoping that interest rates go down, and you can refinance it or fudge the numbers on your spreadsheet. This is why   Michael: I was hoping that's what you were gonna say.   Dana: Yeah, like this is I mean, this is why I'm, I'm more conservative than most in every property purchases had a fixed rate. I don't do adjustable. But I can refinance, right? So I can always refinance. But I want to know what I'm getting into. So when you do your pro forma, do it with whatever the interest rate is now and consider it a huge advantage and just like increased cash flow, if you can refinance in the future, will interest rates go back to this like artificially low rate that we saw over the past five years, maybe not. But I don't think that is a reason not to purchase now. You do your numbers, and you look at it just because you might say property values are really high interest rates are going up, now's not a good time to buy. That's just laziness. Like, honestly, that's just you being lazy and not wanting to do the work.   There's always great deals out there. You just have to do the work, find them look at the numbers and say even with this increased interest rate, it's still a great deal. I'm still cash flowing and I've got a great cap rate, and you can go ahead and purchase. So I don't think of this as the time really to, to change your decisions on real estate. And part of that has to do with I think, you know, some markets will soften. Some markets may remain flat for a while but that doesn't mean that you're not getting the cash flow and having a great investment that by the way, with inflation where it is If it continues, having an asset where the value goes up with inflation, so I still think now's a great time to purchase real estate. And you might be able to get some fantastic deals as other investors are pulling out, you can really, really go in and get those great deals.   Michael; Love it. And Dana, I'm curious if because we've seen prices go through the roof, and interest rates have also gone up significantly, there might be a bit of a lead lag measure until we see prices come down. So in in terms of looking for different markets, I mean, are you targeting markets that are continuing to grow? Are you targeting markets that maybe are seeing some of that softening in terms of pricing?   Dana: So for us, we go where the real estate investors are. So if there's a real estate investor there, right, we're going to do the property management for them. I think when you're when you're thinking about the lag, that is definitely true. I've heard this with other real estate investors, I've seen it myself, where you see a price. And with interest rates up, the seller puts one price out there, because that's what it was two weeks ago. And suddenly, it's not worth that much. It's worth like 10% 20%. Last, but it's actually really good to put yourself into the position of the seller, and of the real estate agent, because you can actually get some really, really good deals off of that.   And what I mean by it is real estate investors have always told historically, have told their buyers in the past couple of years. If your mark, if your property is on market for over two weeks, people might think there's something wrong with that. And so, you know, we're going to ask for offers on X date, right, like X date and two weeks, or maybe we'll do one week, we're going to ask for offers. Well, if they've missed priced the property, you might be able to go in and you don't know this, but you might be the only offer because they priced it way too high, because we priced it from a purchase price from two weeks ago. And now that has suddenly changed like the market changes every two weeks, it really is. And you could go in and get a great deal. And so I think from from that perspective, there are still fantastic deals out there. But you have to be patient. And some of it will be that luck, where you get the right deal, though what else has gone into, and you can go ahead and purchase that.   So if you put yourself in the other shoes, you might see that you also see a lot of people you know why I don't think it's like 2008 and 2009 is people have a lot more equity in their properties because one value values have gone up. And then two, the interest rates were really low, people could afford more put more money in the market was booming. And so what we're seeing is that more people have equity in them. And at some point, it's emotional for someone, they're like, I just want to get rid of this asset, because I'm gonna go buy another one, or I just really want to move out of the city and move somewhere else. And, you know, to them, maybe 20 To 50 to $70,000 is not a lot depending on what it is. But that is a lot to you. And that changes, changes the numbers on your spreadsheet significantly.   And so I mean, with that purchase price, obviously that matters. But just because the price is out on the market for a property doesn't mean that the price is going to sell for. And so it would be a really good time to go out and experiment with that you will know your market better than anyone else, whatever market you're in, because it will take you bidding on like five properties. And maybe people will laugh at you like your first one, you go like 20% under and they laugh at you. But maybe you get lucky on the fifth one, and you'll get a great deal. But yeah, just follow the numbers in your spreadsheet don't have a purchase price, that doesn't make sense and you're not cash flowing. Or don't change the interest rate hoping that it will go down to that to that amount.   Michael: Yeah, that makes total sense. And speaking of spreadsheet numbers, are you seeing a lot of your investor clients that you work with adjusting their expectations around cash on cash returns? Now that prices and interest rates are up?   Dana: So not really I think most investors like most of the savvy ones we work with, we work with his sort of two different types of of customers, those who had properties just handed to them. And they actually never did the analysis like pan downs from parents and things like that. And then others   Michael: Accidental landlords.   Dana: Accidental Yes. And then others who are very strategic real estate investors and what we have found with them as they have the capital and they might not be they might be with inflation to your point Michael being like, Oh, maybe I should just go buy something because the dollar today is worth less On tomorrow, but no, I actually think most real estate investors are still saying, this is the deal that I got, historically, I want to get something like that. And so they're not changing those expectations on cash on cash return, but they might be going somewhere else. So they go to Roofstock, and they say, Okay, I, you know, couldn't find this property, you know, in my backyard, but on Roofstock, they do have the cash on cash return that I that I that I targeting. And so I do think they're not changing their expectations. But they are going out and finding alternative ways to get the numbers they need.   There's one case, Michael, where I find people change their expectations. And it's first time real estate investors to just get their foot in the door. And I'm actually okay with that. I think that there's too many people who, and for anyone who's listening to this, who doesn't have a real estate investment, you kind of sit there and you kind of fantasize about getting one and then you put so much like anxiety into getting your first property. And once you have your first you're like, oh, okay, that's what I got, here's what it is. And it makes it easier, where then you can go and purchase more properties and more properties. And you know, what you're looking for, and you know what the return was, and you have this process set up.   But the first one is really difficult to get into. So I find that those people today are changing their expectations, for certain metrics just to get into the market, before it's too late. Interest rates go up more, or you know, they're kind of kicking themselves that they didn't get in, you know, four years ago, five years ago. So I only think it's first time real estate investors where that's happening. And I'm actually okay with that. Because I think if you can get more people into real estate investing, and more people to just get their foot in the door, you're going to learn so much off of that first property, that then you're going to say, Okay, this was my cap rate for my first property. My next one, I have to at least have that or better and you kind of improve, you know, it's kind of like dating, you never like you don't date someone who's great. And then like the next person is like a downgrade, you kind of have the standard. And you're like, I can only go up from there. It's the same exact thing with real estate investing. So I really think it's only first time homebuyers where that happens are real estate investors for rental properties?   Michael: Yep, I think and I think that makes tons of sense. It's something that I hear all the time. It's Michael, I'm trying to get my first deal done and has to be amazing. And you know, it has to be a Grand Slam? Like? Don't worry about the grand slams, let's practice getting on base first. And then you'll know how to swing for   Dana: Exactly, exactly. And it makes it a lot easier when you have one property in that area. You know your market a bit more, and then you can kind of purchase some more around at.   Michael: Yep. Yeah, I think it makes him think that's totally right. And so Dana, we're kind of at this like crossroads where we're talking about, some investors are pressing pause on their acquisitions. And then this whole other cohort of investors are like, Oh, crap, I gotta get into the market before interest rates go up further before prices go up further. So it does feel like there's this pressure to buy or there's frenzy to buy, on the one hand, and then there's this whole other group, that's again, kind of taking a step back and saying, let's, let's wait and see what happens. How do you square those two?   Dana: Well, to me, I'm like a pretty unemotional real estate investor. And I feel like for anyone, whatever segment you fall into, you still have to go back to the numbers and see what makes sense. And so I mean, is there a right way to go? I think one people who are not going out, and they're using this as an excuse not to purchase properties, or just being lazy, honestly. And for those who are out there saying, I gotta get in and get my next deal. I think they're almost too emotional. Where they might go in and change the numbers to your point of saying, like, oh, it's not, you know, my last deal was was better than this, but I just need to get my foot in the door. Maybe that's not the right approach to have, it's, Hey, there's gonna be a deal out there. I might have to be a little bit more patient during this the for the next three to six months, I have to be patient, I have to understand what's going on.   But yeah, I just kind of go back to the numbers. I think in both cases, they're they're taking emotion and what's happening in the market and using that, like the macro for the micro. And instead of saying, You know what, I know what is a good deal, here's what it looks like on paper. Let me continue to go search until I find that and it might take you a little bit longer to find it. Or you might find a process like oh, wow, I can, you know, go 20% under and get lucky on a deal off of this, whatever the home price is, I could, you know, undercut them and give them an offer and maybe they'll take it to get that great deal.   Um, But I don't I think both categories are bad. I think someone who says I have to get my foot in the door. Before interest rates go up is emotional. I think someone who says there are no great deals out there are just lazy. And so I kind of fall somewhere in between of saying, yeah, just be financially prudent as you always should be with your real estate investment investments, know your market, know what numbers numbers you need, and make sure you're a little bit more conservative. Like, I know, a couple investors with adjustable rate mortgages that did them, you know, back when interest rates were really low. And I bet they feel pretty stupid right now. So   Michael: we won't name names,   Dana: Won't name names here.   Michael: Well, I'd be very interested to meet the the emotionally lazy person, because it sounds like those are two opposite ends of the spectrum. Yeah, I have to see. Okay. And last thing that I want to ask you about is around expectations. If someone is newer to the investment space, they may be looking to get their first deal done. Everyone around them, their sister, their brother, aunts, uncles in this market are making 10% cash on cash. Yeah, pick a number. Nice round number 10%. And they're like their expectation was was 15%. Right, for whatever reason, that's what makes them tick. That's what gets them excited about an investment. Everyone around them is making 10%. So how the how should investors be thinking about not looking at other people, and just focusing on what's good for them, but also not being blind and naive to what a market is really able to produce? In terms of In other words, like, they I want someone to be excited about the returns that they're getting, but I also want them to be realistic. How do you kind of how do you?   Dana: So the biggest thing I would say to throttle that is, most likely you've sort of selected a market because you've looked at, okay, where is and I mean, Roofstock does this for you, and you guys, I think have some great shows from like every single market of why why you guys are looking at a certain market. So that helps. But you as a real estate investor are gonna say worse population growth? And why like, is more industry going there? Like maybe an Amazon facility was just put into place? Does it have fed, ed's and meds? Like, is it stable, even recession proof, especially now? So you kind of go through and figure out why am I excited about this market? And you just start there? And like, don't forget about your, I mean, 15% cash on cash return? Like, let's just forget about all of that and just go through? What looking at macro, and now we're kind of going to micro to like city level?   Why do I think this is going to be a lot a good market in five to 10 years, because you're going to hold on to these properties and purchase more, right? Do that first, then you say, Okay, this is my market, then what you're going to do is for two to three months, you're going to look at all the deals there, go on Roofstock, I think you could set up alerts because I have those that go to my email that essentially like tell you here's a new property in that market, great purchase. Um, you're gonna go through and you might the first couple of properties, say you know what? Those, those don't really hit my cash on cash return expectations, but now you're starting to know your market and you're gonna see a trend, are they going up? Are they going down? And you can look at that over time to make an unemotional decision that is based on data.   I think that is the most important thing to do. When someone gets in this frenzy of I need this cash on cash return shoot, I'm not going to get it. So I'm just going to slash it. And I'm going to say now I need, you know, seven or 8% I and you're just becoming emotional. But if you go through look at the numbers and you say okay, great, I wanted 15% You know, my friends are getting 10% I'm and you're you change those expectations. And suddenly you say, Okay, I made this decision, and here's my cash on cash return. But I knew at that time, that was the best I could do. Because I looked at the data, then suddenly you never go back and wish you had done it differently. Because you have something that is non non emotional to back you up. And don't compare yourself to other real estate investors. I've seen real estate investors in the past four to five years who've been super successful, who are super stupid.   And the reason they were successful and I hate to say that but like there's so many people out there because basically it was free money like there was so much investment it was there was so much easy money from investors that I saw way too many people also going into real estate. A lot of actually on the fix and flip side that just got lucky because yeah, money was basically free to do a fix and flip and a The home prices were going up astronomically. And they feel like they're the smartest people in the room.   Well, maybe they were at that time, but like, give it two to three months, maybe six months, and the story might change. And so that's why I think it's hard at like one point in time, if you're just getting started to compare yourself to those around you, I don't think you should do that. I think you should just be financially prudent, and make sure that you're not overextending yourself. And you know, your market. And you know why you made the decision, you see you did, and it's all based off those numbers. And it's based off the numbers, but also you need to know the market, like you need to know you guys have neighborhood scores and ratings, that kind of stuff of like, here's why I only invest in neighborhoods that have three stars, or greater, or whatever it may be like it, write all of this stuff out, and take a really methodical approach to your assets, your real estate investing, and I don't think you'll regret it. Like, I don't think you're gonna go back and say, Oh, I really wish I would have gotten that 15% I targeted?   Michael; I think that is like spot on. Thank you so much. And if you missed it, if you missed any part of that, go back, rewind the last three minutes, and listen to that again, cuz I think that's a lot of gold in there. Then this was super fun. As always, if people want to reach out more, find out more about you or hemline. Where's the best place for them to do that?   Dana: Yeah, you can go on to Roofstock when you purchase a property, how many will be listed as a property manager? So go go ahead and do that. You can also go to Hemlane.com. And my email is dana@hemlane.com. So I love hearing from people.   Michael: Awesome. Well, thank you again, and very much looking forward to having you on. Again, I'm sure take care of we'll chat soon.   Dana: Great. Yeah, I'm excited in six months for us to see if we were if we stand corrected on what's going on in the market.   Michael: I know it'd be very interesting. Well keep close tabs on it.   Dana: Great. Thanks so much for having me.   Michael: You got it, take care.   Okay, everyone, and that was our episode A big thank you to Dana for coming on as always big friend of the pod as we were saying at the beginning of the show. As always, if you liked the episode, we'd love to hear from you all with a rating and review and we look forward to seeing the next one. Happy investing

Kori Covrigaru is the Co-Founder and CEO of PlanOmatic. PlanOmatic provides quality photos, floor plans, and 3D to the single-family rental industry with speed and at scale, nationwide. With an unwavering determination for client success, he has created a team that thrives on the core value of together we win. With a national network of 200+ contractors and more than 40 employees, Kori has met the moment with the unique value proposition PlanOmatic offers through technology combined with data to support their clients' goals. Today, Kori shares what he's doing as a remote investor in the single-family rental space with a fund that he started with some of his colleagues.  Episode Link: https://www.linkedin.com/in/koric/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by Kori Covrigaru with planOmatic and he's returning to the podcast not talking about planOmatic, but actually to talk about what he's doing as a remote investor in the single family rental space with his fund that he started with some buddies. So let's get into it.   Kori, what's going on, man? Welcome back to the podcast, thanks for taking the time to hang out with me.   Kori: Always, always excited, Michael.   Michael: This is gonna be a lot of fun. So the last time we had you on we were talking about your company planOmatic and for anyone who missed the episode, give us the quick and dirty, what is it that you all do and how you're disrupting the industry?   Kori: We helped at the beginning of this industry. So back in 2012, we started out with the SFR industry but we've been playing thematic creates professional photos for plans in 3D for the single family industry at speed and scale nationwide. So that's what we do plain and simple, we are the boots on the ground that go out, take professional photos, do 3D scans, export floor plans from that, and then deliver that media to our customers. We try to do it under two and a half days and we're pretty damn close to it. So that's what we've been doing, we help these REITs institutional investors in smaller companies scale from 5000 properties all the way up to hundreds of 1000s. That's our business, that's what we're here for.   Michael: Amazing and today, you and I are here to talk about something a little bit different kind of related. Yeah, but really, it's about your journey in the SFR space as a remote investor.   Kori: Yes, sir. So, you know, just being in this industry for so long. I'm surprised it took me so long to decide to get involved on a higher level. But yeah, I've been just watching, you know, myself and some people that I work with here and some family and friends outside of here have been watching this SFR industry grow to the level that it has and never really gotten involved on the investor side. I mean, I had rentals on my own. I've had a rental, you know, my first rental I bought with my business partners. I want to say it was 2006 I think it was October 2006 or 2005 and we bought a rental out in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Since then we exited that then I had a couple rentals here in Denver, but nothing remote and nothing to the level of what we're building right now with SFR Emo, that's the name of the partnership, the group that we've established with 13 partners, and we all threw in some cash and have been acquiring homes, single family homes, for, you know, residents to live in and Alabama, of all places Birmingham, Alabama. So that's what we've been doing, yeah.   Michael: Interesting. So you've done the local investing local with you in Colorado, so what I mean, what did you eat? What did you drink that decided, hey, I'm gonna go do this crazy thing and invest where I don't live.   Kori: I ate and drank reports for where our customers are buying real estate and where it made sense and just reading articles. I mean, there's so many great content distributors, you guys included in terms of what markets make the most sense what to look for in a market and so I had been immersed in all of this data and all of this information for so long, that I finally pulled the trigger and said, hey, time to form a partnership. You know, we started out with five partners, that was the deal was gonna be five partners no more and then, you know, I don't know if you've ever been involved swings. But what happens is you start getting phone calls from random people saying, hey, I want this thing going on, like I want and why didn't you invite me? It's like, well, hold on a second, like, first of all, I don't I don't know how you found out within second. Like, it's this really small thing we're doing and so it went from like five partners to 13 and we had to like, we had to cut the investor pool out at that point and build with what we've had what we have right now, because we still haven't, you know, deployed all the capital. So it started, I'm starting to understand why we see billions of dollars come into the industry committed to buying SFR is, but it's very slow to deploy and so we're experiencing that right now. I mean, we're not slow to deploy, but it takes some time and so that's kind of how the idea started. Yeah, just get involved eat your own dog food, as they say, I think right, that's the term.   Michael: That's it, that's it. So Kori, I mean, you just went through, I think what so many newer investors really struggle with, and that's picking a market and talk to us how I mean, what are these reports showing? What were they telling you and also like, how did you settle on Birmingham because I'm sure the reports show that there were really a lot of other great markets to invest in, too, yeah.   Kori: Yeah. I mean, we landed on a cut to the chase, then I'll kind of backtrack a little bit but we went with Birmingham because this is a small partnership, and we really didn't want to have to continue to put money in so we wanted to pick a market that could cash flow. We wanted to pick a market that was cashflow positive, had great cap rates, relatively speaking hearing coverage are being compressed everywhere right now as we know, cost of capital is going up, prices of homes are going up, that's actually going to reverse here pretty soon, in my opinion, we can get into that later. But so we picked Birmingham, there was a lot of economic opportunity being created there, jobs being created there but also, we knew we were going to be cashflow positive with the cap rates, and there was a room for appreciation. Plus, we found a really great property management company partner that we work with down there that can not only serve us in that market, but we can also expand to other markets, you know, with their with their support. So that those are the reasons the main reasons why I mean, we apply nomadic had the advantage, we have a critical mass of single family rentals that come in through our pipeline to shoot photos, create floor plans, you know, 3D and so we kind of have like this, this holistic view and indicator of what markets might pop off next and, you know, we use that data to make decisions for us farm on where to invest, it's a bit of an advantage that not most have, but I'll tell you what, all that data is public, I mean, we can go out there and see and look at county records and see where all the institutional landlords are the professionally managed properties are being bought and so if you dig data or like to, you know, you can always go on Upwork or Fiverr, and say, hey, please go find me this set of data, those are kind of hacks that you can do to figure out where companies are buying. Now, just because professionally managed companies are buying there doesn't necessarily mean it's a homerun, you have to do your own research, figure out what your goals are with your portfolio where you want to start. So that's kind of been our trajectory on the direction and where, where to own and operate for us.   Michael: Yeah and that makes a ton of sense and I love that you said that to like, go find someone else who can kind of help aggregate the data or figure out the data for you because like, you can, like you don't have to be the person to do all of the due diligence, you don't have to be the person to do all of like the research and also you can leverage other companies paid employees, like you were just mentioning, if an Amazon fulfillment center is going in there, or like Whole Foods is setting up a new headquarters there. They've done the research, so of course, don't reinvent yourself. The wheel, right… Yeah, it's, I love it.   Kori: It's out there.   Michael: Okay, so Birmingham was the target. Yeah. What did you all do next? I mean, how are you executing there? I know, you said you had a great property manager, but like, yeah, the, from the physical like property acquisition to due diligence. There's so much more involved before you even own the property. How did you get that accomplished?   Kori: Yeah, so we this idea came about at some point in 2020, when, you know, shit hit the fan and COVID was on the way and in my mind, and I've always been fairly wrong, when it comes to trying to predict the market. The only thing that's, that's, ya know, I mean, the only thing that's going to be successful is that there is no bad time to buy, that's just my mentality. Like, there is no bad time to buy, it's just a matter of how you go about finding those properties and what you do during negotiation, and due diligence. But um, you know, back in 2020, you said, oh, the real estate buyer is going to absolutely flop right now, everybody's, nobody's got jobs, unemployment is gonna be crazy, we're headed into this, you know, doom and gloom period, which is, of course, very wrong and we said, you know, it's a good time to buy single family rentals, rentals, they perform, regardless of economic conditions, typically, in recessionary periods, they still grow not as fast, but they do grow, that's a hedge against inflation, so on so forth and so we decided to form the entity again, went from five to 13 very quickly. But between, you know, between mid-2020, and mid-2021, I don't think we purchased a single property and so you know, we had to go through all kinds of processes, right, you have to have a good operating agreement, you have to establish a an EIN number, you have to select a property management company, you have to make sure you're finding the right tax forms, you need to find a broker, you need to do research and figure out where you want to go. I mean, that was a big chunk of our time was we didn't know in 2020, exactly where we wanted to go. So we had to do that research, we had to have, you know, make sure that everybody all the partners were kind of on board and then at some point in time, we decided to, hey, these three partners or five partners are actually gonna make the decisions. Okay, now we have to amend the operating agreement that requires lawyers again, I mean, we kind of did a lot of stuff makeshift but, but there's a there's a lot to do, and a lot of time to be had between the moment where you decide, hey, I'm gonna get into this, especially if you're remote and we just closed on our first property, right. So it's, you know, it's, it's more than you expect, but doing it right is the most important thing and I think we've done it right. So far we learned a lot along the way. But we're on the right track. I mean, we're almost at will be at 28 single family homes and that's only that's the course of a year right. So from 20, mid 2020 to 21. We didn't purchase a single home in the last 12 months we've purchased approximately 28-20 single family homes.   Michael: Wow, that's so killer. So Kori I mean, I'm curious to know too. Why did you not just do this alone, a lot of people would argue well, wow, 30 people like that's way too many cooks in the kitchen or five people making decisions like it can get very convoluted very quickly are very quickly. Wouldn't a single operator be more lean and be able to move quicker?   Kori: Yes, yes. I mean, well, so the short answer that is, I can't really do anything. I have a lot of really good ideas but I can't do much. So that's why I didn't go at it. Yeah, I'm the idea guy, right, and the people around me to do things. So, but no, I mean, you know, what, one big reason why we went with more just to have more capital, to be able to diversify more, you know, it's, it's risky as an individual to go out and buy one or two rentals. But if you go out with a group and buy, you know, our goal is to hit 60. That's a pretty diverse portfolio and minimizes risk and there are a lot of great minds in our partnership. I mean, we have a finance guy, right, we have a data guy, we have consultant who's seen many different organizations, we have myself, who's kind of like, overall, seeing the organization from a high level and helping with the financing part of things. So I think it helps to have different people plus, this is all you know, passive for us, right? Everybody's got a full time job and so, you know, if, if I were to do this alone, this would be a full time job, no doubt, but spreading it across having the right property management company, but this person doing, you know, diligence in this person negotiating offers in this person, making sure our bookkeeping and finances and taxes are all in line, it just helps kind of spread that out…. It's fun, man. It's more fun to succeed with partners, like I, you know, I have two business partners here at planOmatic and I couldn't imagine being a sole proprietor, it just doesn't seem as fun to me. Like, for us, it's always been the game in the chase and like winning the game, and it's, if you're by yourself winning and celebrating, that's not fun and the same goes with, you know, the lows. I mean, 2020 was a tough year right and so having a supportive business partners help. So I just think it's more fun.   Michael: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. That makes a ton of sense. I'm curious, quite, how did you figure out like, who does what, and when you were picking your partners and picking your team? What was the process that you went through to do that because I think a lot of people like, oh, my best friend, we're so uh, like, we're so similar. We think the same, we should be partners, we should be business partners. Was that kind of the case for you?   Kori: You know, for me, I mean, I kind of surround myself with people that are like minded and sort of see things, you know, in a certain lens when it comes to opportunity, right? So it was actually it was pretty simple. It was more like who do we, who do we not tell, you know, and ask versus who, because a lot of people came to us a lot of really good friends. So it was just who's willing to take an opportunity who trust I think trust is the number one thing when it comes to partnerships is like, is there trust, we had to make sure there was trust there and then, and then different specialties from different people, again, like I said, like one guy is a full time controller, you know, big company, that's really helpful. Another guy is an operations guy who's operating, you know, we're shooting five to 700 listings a day, right. So like that, that really helps play into one of our guys, Tim Rose, he heads Planet Labs and we analyze and optimize workflows and analyze and optimize reports and data just based on what's coming in and so having him on board to help us decide which market to go with, or what cap rates to focus on, I mean, that was helpful. So it kind of this one all came together and then the people that wanted to be involved, they kind of like stepped forward said, hey, I'd like to be more involved those that didn't, are just passive for this particular partnership. I mean, one of the, I don't want to call them mistake, but it was a rookie move was like 13 partners all equally invested right and so that creates challenges for two things. One, every time we close a loan or refinance, we have to get 13 signatures and that's like, probably the biggest pain in the ass that we've got as a group. The other is like, we're putting in a lot of work on the side, especially, there's one person in particular in the partnership that puts a significant amount of work in, and his return is the same as everybody else's and so this was really like a search and destroy mission for us. Let's figure it out, figure this out, figure out a proof of concept, see if it can work and then in the next round, we're a little more educated, we'll structure the company a little bit differently, make things happen and move a little bit quicker. So yeah, that's kind of where we're at today.   Michael: Okay, like with regard to that signature, and then the equity piece where what else? What else would you do differently for anyone listening? It's like, I want to do this, like, what should they be thinking about?   Kori: When owning and operating and SFR funds, you want to separate out the management company from the fund that owns the properties and we didn't do that it's all one thing. So when you've got one entity that manage manages the portfolio, you know, that's where all the work is. Capital, putting in capital to buy homes is simple. You read a check and then there's typically somebody at the fund but the management company, you know, in today's world, and so far, they're helping acquire the properties on behalf of the fund and so creating an entity for the fun with limited partners, and then a property management company or management company that owns an app rates the portfolio separately, it just makes a whole lot more sense and that's really, you know, shame on me, like I've seen this, I know this, but we just wanted to get going and again, at first it was five, right. So we weren't going to separate those two out as simple as like, we can get five signatures. But when it grew with 13, it became challenging and so we'll look at that a little bit differently.   Michael: Okay and have a separate management company, even though you all are leveraging a local property manager.   Kori: Yeah, because there's much more that you have to communicate with the management company, you have to go through the process of buying the homes and through due diligence, and you have to make offers, and you have to make sure your books are in order, you have to file taxes, and you have to sometimes raise more capital, you have to open up a line of credit, so you can buy in cash and turn on refinance, we can talk about that, that as well. But there are a number of things hidden, hidden chores, let's call them that have to happen when you manage a portfolio, even if you have a property management coming up property management companies can help you place tenants and make sure your tenants are happy and having residents are having a positive experience. Outside of that, they're not doing a whole lot. They might help you find homes, they might help you negotiate, they might help you with renovation, but everything around organizing the company there, that's just you know, that's one vendor that you have as a part of the organization, you have your CPA, you have a bunch of different things that are you have your banker that you have to manage property manager company is not going to deal with your banker, it's not going to happen, they're not going to go find a line of credit for you like that doesn't work that way. So there are a lot of hidden chores that are in there that I strongly recommend, like thinking ahead, because it doesn't take very many homes, very many investments to need to put a significant amount of time even if it's distributed amongst partners into the operation. It doesn't it's not a set it and forget it. This is not George Foreman grill, this is like there's a lot there's a lot going on.   Michael: I don't think I've heard a George Foreman grill reference.   Kori: Now you have or maybe it wasn't George Foreman, maybe it was. What was that? No, it was a different one. It was an infomercial, set it and set it and forget it.   Michael: Oh, that's too funny. Well, Kori talk about like the strategy because you mentioned it just briefly about like line of credit, purchasing and cash and then going turning around and doing a cash out refi. So how are you purchasing properties and how are you structuring your deals?   Kori: So up until now, and oh, boy, are we headed for some news on Mays real estate market, like people aren't going to believe what they what they read in terms of percentage swings. But up until now, it's been a very competitive market for buyers. I mean, like, you know, you had to show up with cash you had to show up with, with no contingencies, waive the inspection, right. All of these things that everybody in a healthy market will tell you don't ever, ever do this you had to do over the last two years to buy real estate in some markets, you've had to do that since 2011, or 12. I mean, in Denver, for example, you know, and this is one of the reasons why we didn't we didn't come to Denver, but in 2012, we went my wife and I visited a home and we had to put an offer in same day and we thought we were crazy, right and we ended up closing about houses, it's now a rental above, you know, closing at 332 is it's probably worth 900,000 and there's a reason why because Denver has been nuts, right. So the markets been like that since then. So what we decided to do is utilize a lot of the cash that the partners put in to buy the homes in cash, make cash offers, you know, promise a quick close, because we had to win the properties and then we would turn around and take the portfolio, once it got to a certain size and refinance it with a bank, we have a great banking partner down in the southeast, and they've been fantastic. But we've always historically bought in cash and around refi pull the money out. Oftentimes, it'll appraise much higher than, you know, we initially bought it for and I'm scared to say this because it sounds so 2009. But the bank is paying us at this point to buy these homes because we're able to leverage 85% and so if they've appreciated more than 15%, right? They're like giving us cash to close on these homes that we bought in cash. Again, sort of scary to say but in terms of rentals, like we're not in danger, like they've performed fine and as long as you as long as you cash flow through ups and downs in the market and interest rates, ups and downs, it's you know, you'll end up on top, but like Denver is a crazy market.   I mean, I remember I was talking about getting a single family home to rent like separately outside of SFR I think it was like two months ago, maybe a month and a half ago and I took my kids to the open house and I showed up about 10 minutes early because I had to be like a birthday party or some bullshit like that and I get there 10 minutes before and there are already eight like, like a groups touring and I'm just like, still really like in in this neighborhood frankly, like, really and so I it took me one open house so you know, I'm out of this market. I mean, I know this right and a lot of the advantage that that people will have is they'll understand the local market and understand the neighborhoods understand where are they putting, you know, new light rail estate in where's their economic opportunity. But Denver was just too competitive, you know, to stick around for. So, yeah, yeah, it's been amazing. So we buying cash, turn around refi, pull cash out, rinse and repeat sort of deal and as long as properties are appreciating, you know, it's a, it's a pretty good model, especially when it comes to rentals, you know, fix and flip, I'm not a big fan, I think, you know, someone gets caught with their hand, that cookie jar at the end of the day of fixing flips, but as long as you're keeping in cash flowing, I think you're fine. And that's, that's kind of been that's been our model and we're able to now take out a line of credit. That's, that's, you know, securitized by our portfolio. So even better, we're able to use cash and a line of credit, make sure that there's good cash flow, turn around the bank, you know, refi it, pull the cash out, and rinse and repeat and that's, that's sort of what we've been up to and you can keep doing this, depending on how the market performs and how interest rates look. I mean, you can keep doing this for a while, right. Our goal, we're at 28. Now, our goal is 60. But depending if, if things continue to appreciate, then we could be even higher than 60, depending on how much the bank will pay us to buy these homes, basically, I'm afraid to say that, should I be saying that?   Michael: It sounds it sounds terrifying. But that's what I wanted to ask you. So you say they're financing 85% loan to value?   Kori: Yeah, yeah…   Michael: That's, like, unheard of in the investment property space it.   Kori: You know, usually, here's 7525, we find a bank, that's pretty aggressive. I mean, it's not like a small lender, it's a bank, it's a legitimate bank and they've been, they've been a great partner for us, and they see the opportunity, and they're a little bit of a risk taker. You know, they're keeping these loans or not, obviously, not selling them to Fannie and Freddie, I don't think, but we've also got so many partners to fall back on, like, it's, it's not risky for them, you know what I mean, when you have, yeah, that much that much wealth behind the partnership, and I'm not talking about the individual employment as a group, like you've got 13 households, where if something goes wrong, for some reason, with the majority of the portfolio, like, they'll be fine, you know. So I think that's also potentially why they're able to leverage so much. But they also are bullish on the rental market and SFR and they understand, you know, as far as you go to a bank, let's say up in upstate New York, they just haven't been around so far, very long. So they might not be as accommodating and as flexible. But boy in the Sunbelt, I mean, banks are trying to try to monetize this just like every other individual investor and so finding the right banking partner has been, you know, really great for us and strongly recommended. I mean, that's, you know, one of the most important things, we've gone through two banks. Now, we were with the credit union before, they didn't really see the vision that we had, but now with private bank, and it makes a lot more sense.   Michael: Okay. Well, that's great to know and I'm curious, when you started putting this all together on paper that was 2020-2021 and the interest rates were at three, four, maybe sometimes even in the twos. Now they're up in the five, six sevens. Has that changed your model much or really changed the performance of what you were expecting return wise?   Kori: Well, yes, of course, right. Cost of capital is it's real, it's real thing for individual investors who are buying their primary home, it's a real thing for smaller investors, family office all the way up to up to the REITs and the institutional landlords. So everybody's feeling a squeeze with those interest rates, cost of capital, obviously, going up, cap rates being compressed. I think what we'll see and what we've seen, historically, is that rents keep up with interest rates, right? So we'll see, you know, rents have gone up, I think, year over year 16%, I believe, and so far, we'll see those continued fact check that before you post it, but I think I saw it in the Wall Street Journal and so rents kind of keep up and so that's, you know, we have that to look forward to in terms of paying more for capital. But also, you know, the goal is to cash flow through the periods through the ups and downs, right through the different markets and so foreign investors, you'll see, you know, we borrow at five and seven year, seven year loans, right, so we're not in it for the 30 year fixed and so that should take us through any sort of period, right? We should be able to refinance within the next seven years, again, hearing things from 2008, kind of reverberate in my head. But that's the idea is that if as long as you can cash flow through interest rate periods, you should be fine and as long as rents hold up, which we don't see any reason why they shouldn't. I mean, we're again, four and a half million homes short of supply right now supply is not going away. Now, home values have gotten to a point now where buyers have said I've we've had enough, we're not we're not doing this anymore. Besides the fact that we can't afford it, right. Like between the interest rate hikes and the appreciation of home values over the last two years, we're seeing about a 43% increase in cost to pay a mortgage. Okay, like that's insane, so…   Michael: Compared to when?   Kori: Two years ago, that's compared to like beginning of 2020. I mean, between the appreciation and the interest rate increase, going from like three on average to five whatever and a half, one would be 43% more expensive to make mortgage payments today. Now, the good thing for SFR and for rentals is people are still there's a high demand for spacious, professionally managed homes, right single family rentals, and that demand isn't going away. So when people can't necessarily afford today to buy a home, or maybe say, hey, I'm going to sit on the sidelines for a couple of years, because this is batshit crazy, they're going to rent, right and so the demands keeps up, the rents keep up inflation continues to go up and hopefully we'll see that slow down here, due to the increase in interest rates. But you know, cash flow is important, I think it's been proven over time and history that rents will keep us cash flowing and that's why the industry is so attractive and so, you know, so new still, we're only a decade into this being professionally managed, right landlord has been around for before we can remember.   But there's an appetite for professionally managed properties, so that the experience that I'm gonna have, as a renter as a resident is on par with if I own my own home, and was able to do whatever I wanted to do to my home. Now I can have that luxury of having that home, but having it professionally managed. So if things go bad, I can just call someone, they'll be here soon to fix it right or if I want to move, it's not it's not that big of a deal on my lease ends, I go find another lease, right. So that demand isn't going away and that's what's keeping us so strong as an industry and I was just at the National rental home Council conference in DC and that's kind of the theme is that, you know, everybody's cautiously optimistic, because it's a weird time. There's a lot of uncertainty right now in the economy. But there isn't a whole lot when it comes to our industry and so I think, you know, again, when is it a good time to buy, in my opinion, always. So what's happening right now is interest rates are going up, prices are still like going up. We are seeing I think a Redfin report came out today that prices are starting to come down, actually and so there's a huge opportunity for investors to get into the market right now and buy, and investors don't have to buy at this price. Like it's been only a month, but the whole thing has been flipped upside down. So what I'm telling my acquisitions team, right, my expositions team, is, this is a time where, frankly, you go in and you offer 15 to 20%, less than what it's listed for, and you offer on volume all of a sudden, and then those that are willing to get out with a cash offer today, those are the deals to be had and yes, you are paying a higher interest rate right now for that. But you know, what, if you get the deals, and I'm not saying you'll get them at 20 or 15% discount, but you'll get them, you don't have to pay this price today, because the market just hasn't adjusted down to the interest rates that we're at. There are some steals out there and so it's a volume game, right? It's like, it's like going to a bar and meeting men or women, right. The more the more you ask, the better chance you're gonna have to succeed and it's the same with real estate today, like the more offers you throw out there that might be less than what they're wanting or hoping for a price. Some are in a situation where they need to exit or want to exit and so there are opportunities out there more right now than ever so far, which is crazy to think about.   Michael: That is crazy to think about and so you mentioned there's some big news coming out was that was that the Redfin report about where you think prices are going for the May report?   Kori: No, well, I mean, there was there was some information out but we're still they're still reporting on April, my mind, this is just, you know, my prediction is crystal ball, my crystal ball tells me based on very, you know, various different data points that may will be the biggest drop in transactions we've ever seen the biggest drop, the biggest drop in transactions month over month that we've ever seen, I'm predicting, I'm putting it for…   Michael: May 2020.   Kori: To May over April and may year over year, also that will be the biggest drop in in housing starts as a percentage and let's say close transactions will be in May, that'll continue into June because there's always a lag housing starts we get at the beginning contracts to buy new construction, we get the beginning. So that's always an indicator, a leading indicator of where the markets headed. But we'll see that as built, you know, are already built on existing home sales. They're just going to plummet right now and that's because there's pretty much gonna be a standoff between buyers and sellers right now. I mean, when do you remember seeing homes drop in price in Denver like, right, I don't remember when that happened. Yeah, you know, so I think that I think the buyers are fed up. I think that affordability has gone through the roof and I think that the Fed is going to succeed and installing the economy and stalling you know, the housing market, which has a trickledown effect to the rest of the economy, right. I mean, think about movers, Comcast, right, any sort of cable television, Home Depot and Lowe's, right, all these all these companies that we don't really think about. or Amazon people buy stuff for their new home like the Fed wants to slow the economy down, they're definitely going to succeed. We're going to see some job loss from it. But at the same point in time, this is an OK, adjustment to the overall market and the housing market. We know that this is not sustainable. We said that a year ago, a year into this crazy Rock chip ride. So we'll see a slowdown and it's healthy, it's okay and that also creates these deals that I think are definitely still out there. You know, there are still motivated people that need to sell for one reason or another. Maybe they have to move, maybe they are they're adjustable rate mortgages off, right, maybe they set it seven years ago, and all of a sudden, they're having to refinance and it doesn't make sense. Maybe they just feel like they want to cash out and it's time and so, you know, those who went under contract, let's say a month ago, kind of probably hit the top. But for the short term, but there's still a lot of opportunity out there to get some good deals right now.   Michael: You heard it here first, folks. That's awesome, that's awesome. All right. Well, Kori, we got to get you out of here, man. Thank you so much for coming on again. For people that want to reach out to you connect with you learn more about planOmatic where's the best place for them to do that?   Kori: LinkedIn is great. Although my name is hard to find K O R I C O V R I G A R U, I'm sure it's in the in the post, LinkedIn is great. My email kori@planomatic.com, I'm always fielding emails. So send me an email and otherwise I'm not I'm not really on Facebook or Instagram or any of those, so email and LinkedIn is probably best for me.   Michael: Right on that'll have to do. Well, Kori thanks so much, man. Appreciate you coming on again. We'll chat soon, all right.   Kori: Thanks, Michael. Great to be here.   Michael: All right, everyone. That was our episode, a big thank you to Kori for coming on and sharing with us what he's been doing in the space. As always, if you'd liked the episode, please feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever they as you get your podcasts, and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing…

Summary: In the 7th episode of the 9th season of The Propcast, Louisa is joined by the Co-Founders of Smart Building Bootcamp Matthew Marson and Michael Grant to chat about the secret to becoming a “Smart Building Expert”.  Matthew and Michael describe what is offered by Smart Building Bootcamp and how they equip their customers with the skills they need to become Smart Building Experts. By cutting through the jargon and enabling people to see through the smoke and mirrors, Smart Building Bootcamp simplifies smart technology.  They discuss the wide range of businesses that sign up for their courses - from real estate firms to investment banks - and why it's so important to walk these clients through the fundamental components of smart building technology. After all, digitising a building can't happen overnight, it's a journey that requires a certain level of understanding. Later in the episode, they touch on what skills they are looking for in the hiring process before they wrap things up with their expectations of the smart building industry.  Resources: LMRE Global Recruitment and Search Consultancy LMRE YouTube Interviews Companies Mentioned: WSP Accenture AirRated Shout Outs: Olga Turner Baker, Co-Founder and Managing Director Co-Founder and Managing Director Ekkist Charlotte Laing, Head of Marketing at Metrikus and Co-founder at Smart Building Bootcamp Brad Koerner, VP Product & Innovation MgtVP Product & Innovation Mgt at LUXTECH LED Modules Key Insights From This Episode:  Before you invest in digitising your estate, you need to educate yourself. - Michael Digitising your building can't happen overnight, it's a journey. - Matthew Hiring managers should think of their teams as a patchwork that is tied together with all those different experiences, rather than looking for a herd of unicorns, cause you won't find them. - Michael  If we're going to stop the world from warming up, if we're going to reduce energy costs and we're going to improve indoor air quality, you need to make buildings smarter. - Michael People want their buildings to be smart and they want their buildings to react immediately. - Michael Customers are looking for different services, some want indoor air quality, some want energy and water monitoring and some want occupancy and capacity monitoring. - Matthew Since COVID, I have seen the 3 Cs; compliance, coerce and collaboration. First, it was making sure the air quality was suitable, then it was how can we get people back into the office and finally it has been about collaboration. - Matthew  To get people back to the office, the obvious answer is to deploy the right smart building technology in order to prove and adapt to all the things that are going on. - Matthew About Our Guests: Matthew Marson, Co-Founder of Smart Building BootcampMatthew Marson is the Global Technology Sector Director at a large consultancy firm and the co-founder of the recently launched Smart Building Bootcamp. Having founded WSP's Smart Places practice and grown Accenture's offering in this field, Matthew now leads a €100m business across a range of asset types and geographies. Marson was named as the Royal Academy of Engineering's Young Engineer of the Year 2022 and the Institution of Mechanical Engineers Young Visionary 2016 for his work in creating The World's Most Connected Building. He now sits on the Institution's Strategy Committee.  As a recognised thought leader, Matthew is a keynote speaker at international industry events related to emerging technology, net-zero design and places at the building and city scales. He was an author in the Encyclopaedia of Sustainable Technologies and a published writer in a variety of journals, earning a doctorate in Smart Buildings. He has recently launched Smart Building Bootcamp in an effort to share his knowledge and bring smart technology leaders together, to educate the real estate industry on how they can benefit from smart buildings. Michael Grant, COO & Co-Founder at Metrikus and Co-Founder at Smart Building Bootcamp Michael Grant is the co-founder and COO of Metrikus, and co-founder of recently launched Smart Building Bootcamp. Michael is an operations, strategy and management professional with over 20 years in the technology sector. Specialising in technology, software, IoT, ESG and cloud, Michael has over 10 years' experience working at Senior Management and C-Level and has dealt with large teams to deliver solutions with exceptional service – clients include those from banking, commercial real estate and IT sectors. Smart Building Bootcamp Smart Building Bootcamp makes smart simple. The smart building industry is overwhelmingly complicated. There are hundreds of vendors all saying the same thing while at the same time all claiming they do smart ‘differently'. We exist to equip you with the skills you need to interpret technical jargon. With our online on-demand courses, you'll be a smart building expert in no time. About Our Host Louisa Dickins Louisa is the co-founder of LMRE, which has rapidly become the market leading global PropTech recruitment platform and search consultancy with operations across North America, United Kingdom, Europe and Asia-Pacific. To promote the industry she is so passionate about, Louisa set up the Global podcast ‘The Propcast' where she hosts and invites guests from the built environment space to join her in conversation about innovation. About LMRE LMRE is globally recognised for leading the way in Real Estate Tech & Innovation talent management. From the outset our vision was to become a global provider of the very best strategic talent to the most innovative organisations in PropTech, ConTech, Smart Buildings, ESG, Sustainability and Strategic Consulting. At LMRE we are fully committed at all times to exceed the expectations of our candidates and clients by providing the very best advice and by unlocking exclusive opportunities across our global network in the UK, Europe, North America and Asia-Pacific. Timestamps: [02:00] Matthew: Can you elaborate on your career journey? I trained as an architect and engineer and started off working at a bank. I then went on to Accenture in the sustainability team where we were looking for ways in which we could reduce energy consumption for our clients. After that, I went to WSP to set up their smart places practice. [03:35] Matthew: How did you meet Michael?  A chance meeting at an industry event.  [04:20] Michael: Can you talk us through your career journey?  I am a sparky (electrician) by trade, I then went into engineering and then IT.  I was never in real estate until I got brought into the previous company and then I did a buyout with Metrikus Ltd, 3 years ago.  AirRated sprung out of Metrikus and is now run as a separate business.  [07:55] Matthew: Can you talk us through Smart Building Bootcamp's key modules?  There are 15 modules and we have arranged them into three tracks of five.  Track 1: Trends Track 2: Physical Track 3: Digital  [09:40] Matthew: Give us an example of some jargon which you teach.  Different types of databases. What's a server?  How different systems come together.  [11:10] Michael: Who are the main people taking this course? Quite a wide mix, people from real estate, investment bankers, heads of operations, surveyors, heads of workplaces or heads of facilitates.   [16:45] Matthew: Coming out of COVID what are your customers looking for and what are they wanting from your product? It depends on the customer and what they want.    Before COVID, 95% of our customers were tenants/occupiers and now it is almost 50/50. We have more landlords than we have ever worked with before.  Some customers want indoor air quality, some want energy and water monitoring and some want occupancy and capacity monitoring. Michael: The 3 Cs: compliance, coerce and collaboration.  [22:00] Matthew: What skills do you look for when hiring people, and where do you see the talent coming from?  Having a good combination of software, some built environment experience, good problem solvers and technically minded. I'm looking for more to do with curiosity and interest and the right attitude. [24:45] Michael: What skills do you look for when hiring people, and where do you see the talent coming from?  We only have 1 hire that came from the real estate industry (building management systems). It is really difficult to find people. I don't think people need to come from the real estate industry as long as they are smart and they understand what it is you are trying to do.  [28:45] Why are you both passionate about making buildings smart? Matthew: Growing up, I wanted to be an architect and I was inspired by throwing away ornamentation and antiquity and using the technologies of the time. Now I see this as a new architecture kind that will fundamentally change how we manage our space. Michael: I didn't come from this space, I came from a place where state of the art and cutting edge were everything you wanted but with the real estate industry, it's like going back in time. Michael: If we're going to stop the world from warming up, if we're going to reduce energy costs and if we're going to improve indoor air quality, you need to make buildings smarter.  [33:20] What are the major trends you've seen and do you have any expectations in the smart building industry? Matthew:  We are seeing a rationalisation in the number of companies that offer sensors and  we will see an upsurge in more master systems integrators.  Matthew: On the professional services side, we will probably run out of opportunities to do use-case playbooks and the customers will become much more sophisticated in setting the agenda of what they want to do around intelligent procurement decisions. Michael: A lot of drivers are if the government's going to give me a huge tax rebate or pay for 50% of me digitising my building and help make it more efficient then I'm going to do it. [40:40] The ‘LMRE' part, Louisa asks the guests to talk about;  L – Touch on the main lessons you have learnt throughout your career. Matthew: When you're designing a system, know the difference between cool and creepy.  Michael: You need to deliver what you say you're going to deliver in this space. M - Please give a mention to anyone / product / service. Matthew: Brad Koerner, Presentation at Integrated Systems Europe Michael: Charlotte Laing R – What has been the most rewarding aspect of working in PropTech? Matthew: Creation of a new architecture 2.0 and the difference it will make to the built environment. Michael: Feedback from customers that say we've genuinely helped them.  E - What are you excited about in the future of PropTech? Michael: Smart Building Bootcamps Sponsors Launch Your Own Podcast A Podcast Company is the leading podcast production and strategic content company for brands, organisations, institutions, individuals, and entrepreneurs. Our team sets you up with the right strategy, equipment, training, guidance and content to ensure you sound amazing while speaking to your niche audience and networking with your perfect clients. Get in touch jason@apodcastcompany.com 

Tamar Hermes is a full-time real estate investor and educator. After building successful businesses in the retail and entertainment industries, she turned her attention to real estate with a mission to get more women to become investors and continue to build her portfolio. Tamar has been investing for over 20 years with a focus on appreciation with buy and hold single-family homes and duplexes in Los Angeles. In the past few years, she has expanded her portfolio to include passive multi-family investments across multiple states, private lending, and Airbnb properties. She bought her first duplex when she was 28. She always had a knack for saving money, but it took her years to discover there were other ways to earn income besides working a 9-5 job. Today, Tamar will talk about how financial freedom is possible through real estate and the importance of knowing how to allocate and invest your money and protect assets is a critical piece of sustaining financial independence and creating a legacy. Episode Links: https://www.themillionairessmentality.com/ https://wealthbuildingconcierge.com/ https://quiz.tryinteract.com/#/60bd0792decf1d00177af595 --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey everyone, welcome to the Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Michael Albaum, and today I am joined by Tamar Hermes, who is an author, investor, coach, an all-around awesome person and she's gonna be talking to us today about what it's like to get started, as well as some of the different avenues that investors can take as they're going down their investment journey. So let's get into it.   Hey, everyone, just a quick note, before we get into the episode, today, I wanted to give a shout out to the Roofstock Academy, which can be found at roofstockacademy.com. It is a one stop shop for your real estate investing education, independent of where you're starting from whether you're just starting out trying to get that first deal done, or a seasoned investor with a sizable portfolio, looking to get involved some other asset classes, or maybe streamline your investing. We've got stuff for you. It's comprised of on demand lectures, so you go at your own pace. Some of our programs have one on one coaching access to private Slack channels, forums and group coaching sessions. So come check us out at roofstockacademy.com. Look forward to seeing you in there.   Tamar, thank you so much for taking the time and joining me on the podcast. Really appreciate you coming on.   Tamar: Thank you so much for having me.   Michael: Oh, my pleasure, so I know a little bit about your backstory. But I mean, you're an author, you're a coach, you're an investor, give us the little background of who you are, where you're come from, what it is you do in real estate.   Tamar: How long does this podcast? Okay, in a nutshell. So my background is similar story, as a lot of investors that start out in real estate, I was looking for a way to lower my expenses and so I bought a duplex over 20 years ago and the rest is history, I realized that I could get other people to pay my mortgage and it was very exciting and I went on and did more of it cut to I did grow up without anything. So I wanted other women to realize the opportunity in real estate and that's when I started wealth building concierge. I recently wrote a book, the millionaires mentality to teach women how and men too actually should say, how to invest in real estate and the many ways in which you can do it and the many ways to build wealth through real estate.     Michael: Oh my god, I love it. Well, there is a ton here to unpack, we'll see how much we get through in today's episode. But so the duplex that you bought, you obviously bought it locally because you were living in it, and your future investments and kind of proceeding investments after that were those local or those remote?   Tamar: So when I first started investing, many years ago, in Los Angeles, I was living in the duplex and so I bought there, and I continued to buy there because we didn't I didn't have the resources that we have now and I didn't realize the opportunities of investing out of state. Over the years, I have investments across the country now and I also invest in both passive and active meaning that passive that I give money to partners and they do all the work and I get a piece of the pie active where I do the work and I take advantage of the real estate professional status and get to enjoy all the perks of controlling my own asset.   Michael: Love it, so on the remote real estate investor podcast, we've often done showdowns between single family versus multifamily passive versus active investing and we try to take a stance and defend both positions having done both, which do you like better and why?   Tamar: I will say that I enjoy both for different reasons. I enjoy both passive and active. I ultimately like passive better because passive is where you're on the beach in Hawaii, drinking a Mai Tai while you are collecting checks, so that kind of trumps everything. Although active gives you tax advantages, it gives you more control over your investment and it is a way in which you can also learn a lot more about real estate investing because if you're passive, you need to learn a certain skill set in terms of looking at analyze a deal and how to vet a sponsor. However, you don't need to know all the ins and outs of how the property management works and the ins and outs of negotiating, finding the deal. Dealing with the tenants all of that those aspects. So there's a different, it depends on what you want to accomplish as part of my whole platform, where I feel like right now we're in a time where real estate investing is very popular, which I'm so grateful because there's enough for all of us, and we can all make a lot of money have owning real estate. What I do get concerned about is that there's not a lot of thought or strategy around what we're buying. So a lot of investors now they might say, okay, I want to buy Airbnbs and the goal is to cashflow 10,000 a month. Well, that's a great goal and that's wonderful. However, what is the big play in terms of the Airbnb and where are you really going with that and what then is the property appreciating or is it just in a market where it doesn't appreciate? What happens if the market changes and will that place still rent as well or do you have to turn it into a long term rent and can you can it? Can it take the that strategy? So there's a lot of pieces that I like to think about in terms of mitigating risk, and in terms of wealth building in terms of how do we build a portfolio where we have passive income, where we have certain assets, performing in certain ways and other assets performing in certain ways. And I'm also in private equity deals, I'm in crypto, I like a diversified portfolio.     Michael: Love it, love it, love it. So if someone is just getting started, they are trying to get their legs under them invest in their first deal and they're getting kind of overwhelmed with the amount of stuff that you have to learn and do to get involved into an active ownership deal. Do you think passive is a good place for someone to get started or do you like people to see, go the active route, get their teeth cut, get an education to understand what goes into the back end stuff around the passive deal?   Tamar: That's a great question. I think it really depends on one big factor, which is how much time do you have, if you are a busy professional, and you are working or running companies, and you're not really that interested in real estate, but you want to benefit from the profits that are available to you, then passive is certainly the way to go and then I would I would do is focus on that dive deep into meeting the right sponsors, finding out about how to look at the deals and learn about certain deal structure and the benefits and that is a great way to go. If you are someone who is young, you've got time you're interested in real estate you want to be in the game, get your hands dirty, then you want to be asking yourself, what is the most appealing aspect of real estate in terms of do you like and Airbnb, a lot of a lot of people don't like designing, they don't want to deal with all of the nuances and the expense sending up an Airbnb, Airbnb is expensive, there's not a lot of way around that if you're going to furnish a place, you're going to have to put money into it. So those are if you don't have that resource, then that might not be an option for you right now. Granted, if you're able to maybe do a get a property where you can get a low enough deal and get enough appreciation into it and do sort of the burr then you have the opportunity to do the option of Airbnb and because maybe you have enough money in the deal there or maybe you take a partner. So those are just examples. A very simple way to get started is even with Roofstock, you do a great job of providing turnkey properties where people can go on and figure out where they want to buy and then do a purchase and start learning that way. That's another great way, keep it simple.   Michael: Tamar, I think that's such great insight and I know that you've done all kinds of investing, you've implemented a ton of different strategies, kind of throughout the country. So I would love if you could give people just a taste of some of the things that you have done and then I'm curious to get your thoughts on what your favorite has been.   Tamar: My favorite investing strategy is passive investing and I'd say that as a general because any project that you can get in on where you are making mailbox money is a good project and especially when those projects exit, you get another bump and you're looking at interest returns of close to 20% generally annualized when it when it all shakes down when once a project exits. So granted, you have to remember it's it an investment, so it could vary and even if I'm making 14% annualized, I'm pretty happy. I think that's a pretty great return for doing no work and putting my money in. Now my favorite investment strategy for if you are just starting out is a little different. I would say right now my favorite investing strategy for starting out is probably the Airbnb model and I think I'm not alone and that's why it's become so popular because you can cash flow properties and buy in appreciating areas, which is sort of unheard of in the past, when you would buy in Los Angeles. Well, Los Angeles is a bad example because they have terrible laws for, for tenants. So that's not a good example.   But let's say Austin, where I live now, Austin is a great city. So it is possible in Austin or San Antonio to buy a place if you if you are savvy and you can buy it right and get a great opportunity, then you can move into an Airbnb structure. Now, I should say, though, in Austin, there are regulations, so you need to go outside of Austin, but certainly San Antonio, there's a lot of places where you can do it and you can actually buy in an appreciating area in Florida and Georgia, there's a lot of places and I just think that's a great strategy for a beginner, you do need some money, like I said, because you got to furnish the place and it is harder to buy in an appreciating area, because prices are higher. So if you don't have as much money, it makes it cost prohibitive. But there are a lot of labor areas that you can go in Texas, in Florida, in Georgia, in Idaho, where you can make money and do well.   Michael: Love it, so I think what's hard for so many beginning investors and curious to get your thoughts if you see the same is that there are so many different things, so many different rabbit holes, an investor can go down, oh, I want to learn about wholesaling and go through that I want to go learn about burr investing go to that I want to go into fixing, flipping, go do that and so it's can be really overwhelming. And so if someone is interested in buy and hold, or in Airbnb, I mean, how do someone stay focused when they're just learning and they're just getting started?   Tamar: So that's a great question, it can be very daunting and you can also get into analysis paralysis, where you want to buy the best deal and make sure that it's the best one and you make the most money and a lot of times getting a base hit is better than getting a home run on the first go around and sometimes you're a seasoned investor and you end up with a base hit. It's happened to me, and it happens to the best of us because we can't control all the variables. So there are a couple things you want to look at if you're just starting out one is where do you live and do you live in an area where you can actually invest and it makes sense and if you do, I always think don't go to another state. If you live in a perfectly good state. If you live in South Carolina, don't go to Texas to invest in South Carolina, it's a great market, you don't need to make your life harder. So the first thing is deciding on the area.   The other thing is, then you need to decide what strategy now strategy a lot of times comes down to how much money do you have and how much time do you have and how many partners can you get if you need money to Terez for a deal. So if you're just starting out, you don't have a lot of money. Wholesaling is a great option because you can get a deal and you can make a really quick profit, and you can start building some profit in there. Now you're not owning the property, so you haven't quite built your asset column. Although you're doing a great job in terms of bringing income in and building that that nest egg, well, not a nest egg, but an investor egg that you can turn into buying properties working capital, working capital, exactly, you have working capital and so you just look at where you are and I think you really the numbers are pretty basic. If you're not going for a huge deal multifamily aware, you have a lot more metrics that you need to be looking at. So if you're just a single family, it really isn't that complicated. You just need to look at how much it's how much the expenses are going to be. What can you rent it for? Are you in an area where people are moving? Or are you in an area where people are moving away? That's a consideration. What kind of markets are in the area or is there just one industry like it was in Detroit, that was a huge problem. When the industry fell apart, and then a lot of people were leaving their homes and there was no one to buy those homes. So those are the kinds of things that you want to ask yourself and don't get caught into wanting to retire from real estate investing next week, because unless you have millions of dollars that you're playing with, you've got to build that and chances are you're not going to build it on the first deal. Although if you keep moving you will ultimately get there you have to stay in it and you have to do the work and be diligent and just believe in yourself a little bit. You can look at other people who have done it and you know you can do it especially when I speak to women, which is who I coach and who I serve.   We are looking at what we can, what we're looking at what we can do, how we can get an action, how we can focus and diversify and create portfolios and with, with clarity and confidence so that you can actually get past that part of the of the gate where you're just looking and wanting to dive in and actually diving in and being on the other side of actually, oh, my gosh, I own property.   Michael: Yeah, no, I think that makes a ton of sense and kind of continuing in that thought vein, have you ever had a deal a bad deal or a deal go sideways that you could share? Because I think so often, especially on real estate podcast, we're talking about the wins the highs, the best of the best and people are like, I could never do that. I could never be where Tamar is I could never do what she's done. So give us a humbling experience that you had in real estate.   Tamar: Yeah, sure. So I can talk about a deal recently, that wasn't really a horrible deal. But definitely the numbers were not what I expected and I did, I never think that you actually I don't like to say you ever lose money in real estate, unless you sell at a loss, right? It's just like the stock market. It's the same principle. If you hang on to the property, and then the prices go up, and then you sell then you made money. But if you sell at a loss, then you that's the only time you lose money. So recently bought a property in Arkansas, and I had boots on the ground. That was the other thing I was going to talk about that if you want, let's say you don't live in a great area, like you live in Los Angeles, you might need somewhere where you have some people in place that can help you find the property and facilitate the, the rehab and manage the property for you. So those are things you think about. So in Arkansas, I had boots on the ground in this area and I purchased a little lake house that I wanted to Airbnb, and the margins were terrific and my boots on the ground were very seasoned and I had done other deals with her before and I kept asking, hey, is the Airbnb regulation an issue and she said she really didn't think it was and that other people were air being in the area and that we just had to go through a process with the with the city and with the with the gated community that I bought in, and that it would be fine and so I went through with the deal and we started buying furniture and I did it very hesitantly because it's, it's expensive to furnish an Airbnb and I kept thinking, well, I want that to go through the regulations to make sure we're not stuck and at the end of the day, we did get caught in some red tape, we were denied by the city, there was a big political issue. We're actually in this area, we're actually going to court now not just me, the whole community of Airbnb, Airbnb homeowners that are upset about the regulations and feel like it's not good for the community and that it's not, it isn't diplomatic at all and so what I ended up doing was I ended up renting it for six months to a guy that was actually building a lake house, and I am covering my mortgage, and I'm making a few $100. So it is cash flowing a bit. But it definitely wasn't the few 1000 that I thought I was going to make in the area. So that's a story where it wasn't like the worst thing in the world. But it certainly wasn't the best I use my resources, I expected a certain return and I didn't get it. But I just pivoted, and hopefully in six months in a year, if the regulations change, then I believe that my property will not only double in value, but I will also be able to start Airbnb being it. So sometimes it takes a little longer when you're doing an investment.   Michael: Yeah, okay. Oh, that's interesting. So maybe you didn't get to make lemonade today, but you made like lemony water, and next year, you'll be able to hopefully make the full fledge lemonade.   Tamar: This is part of the reason why I like a diversified portfolio because you can't control all the variables in real estate and that's part of the reason why people don't ever get into it, because they are uncomfortable with the fact that you can't control the variables. They think that when they invest with a financial advisor, and the financial advisor puts them in stock, somehow that financial advisor is protecting them and protecting their assets for the one and a half percent commission that they're making. The truth is they don't control the stock market. So it can go down just as easily. You're just as vulnerable. In fact, I think a lot more in the stock market than you are in real estate.   Michael: That is such a good point and I just want to kind of touch on that again, because I think it just I had an aha moment for myself. I think when people get involved with other people that can talk the talk or that have experienced doing whatever it is, they get this illusion of say see, and to your point, exactly, the person who's selling you the product or placing you in a product has zero control over the market or the company into the stock that placing you and so I think that's a really great point to hit home.   Tamar: I mean, they certainly have knowledge and they are certainly doing the best they can, although we know historically that it's volatile, and then ultimately, they don't control it.   Michael: Okay, Tamar. So getting back to kind of having a bad experience I showed on a prior podcast, I just got my lunch eaten on my very first deal, but I was too green, too naive to know to stop. So I just kept falling forward and I was like, well, this is progress. When people hear those types of stories, like whoa, like, I don't want that to happen to me, I'm gonna do my research, I'm gonna get educated, I'm going to do all the things I need to do in order to do this responsibly. How should someone think about being ready, because you could very easily say, and I'm guilty of it, too. Oh, one more podcast, one more conference, one more book, one more coaching session, whatever it is you're doing to prepare yourself if you're just getting started. So how do you take that leap and know that yeah, I'm doing it responsibly and I have enough information to proceed without getting without, you know, being overloaded with information?   Tamar: I think you need to be honest with yourself. And I think you need to look at what's really happening for you. So there is a point where you are educating yourself and you do feel like, okay, I want to have my ducks in a row, I want to be pre-qualified for a loan, I want to have a certain amount saved. So I can buy this property at this amount. Or I want to educate myself in a certain strategy and then there's also a certain point where you are just in analysis, paralysis, and one of the things you can do that really helps is one to set a deadline, just decide to say, okay, I have two months to do this and after two months, I'm going to do this and when you do that, one, you're making a commitment to yourself and also in your mind, you're making a commitment to that action, the other thing you can do is get an accountability partner and say in two months, hold me accountable. I said I was going to do this. Now, you mentioned coaching, I'm a huge fan of coaching, I have coaches, I pay a lot of money, for support for guidance for collaboration and I think that it's very important to look at yourself and see if you're the kind of person where you know what, I need somebody to take my hand and look at this with me and say this is okay. Now granted, you could have a mentor, and sometimes you could go to meetups, and you can meet mentors for free and a lot of people are super generous, and they will be able to support you. So you couldn't even get that support for note paying no money and I would also say there is a huge benefit in being in a group being in a private coaching, really looking at what you're doing, and having someone support you in that deliberate way. Because we do pay attention to what we pay for and it's just the truth. So sometimes when we get it for free, maybe somebody gives you some great advice, but you don't pay for it. But then as soon as you pay for it, you think, okay, I just gave that person money to tell me for the value of their knowledge and they told me to do this, this and this, I'm going to do it because I just pay money for that and I want to get the I want to get the benefit of that. So it does work pretty well and the trick is to really know yourself, and to make sure that you are moving forward and don't be afraid.   The other thing that happens is we have this attachment to money, we have this false attachment that if we hold on to our money, that we're safe, and that we are building wealth, and that we're secure and the truth is, is that we don't build wealth by keeping it in a bank account, where in fact right now with inflation, we are most certainly losing money. If you want to use the rule of 72 and seven years your savings is gone at this point with the inflation rate we're at. So the truth is that that money needs to be working. I can't tell you how many clients I've had where they have hundreds of 1000s in the bank, and they're just paralyzed. They just don't know exactly. I'm not sure what to do. I don't want to make the wrong decision. I don't want to lose money and I don't know exactly what direction to go in and they are so happy once the money starts moving. I had a client she ended up buying a house that really suited the next move for her. It's an Airbnb, but also her family can use it. So it kind of tied in really nicely with her desires, which is also important and then right after she did it, she made a big sale and some money came in. I mean, it was crazy. Once you start moving the money, money starts moving with you and it's amazing how that works and that's why I really think that the false attachment to money can really also hold us back from the real estate investing and we need to be careful about that because if you fall into that trap, you will just be hoarding your money and it just won't be working for you and you also won't be reaching your goals because you can't buy anything unless you're willing to give somebody some money to buy the property.   Michael: All right, that makes a ton of sense. For those that might not be familiar to mark, you just touched on what is the rule of 72.   Tamar: So the rule of 72 is you multiply how much percentage you're making, by the years that it will take to double your money. So in 10 years' time seven, that would be 72. So that would take you at 7% 10 years to make that money at 10% inflation, it would take you seven years to make that much money.   Michael: Perfect, perfect. Thank you for the clarification. Let's shift gears here and talk about your book. I know you said who it was for it and why you wrote it. But I'm just curious, how did you get the inspiration with so many real estate books out there? How did you want to set yourself apart?   Tamar: Yeah, that's a great question and I think this is really at the crux of everything that we do, because we can look also at all the people that are involved in real estate, wait, where's my space? How do I fit in? Is it is the market? Is it too late for me? Those kinds of questions. So for me, right, what I think is a great place to come from is to think about your why and think about why you're doing things. So for me, the book was about me sharing with the world. So I wasn't thinking about everybody else and how saturated the market was, and that there wasn't a space for my book, I was just thinking, You know what, I have this knowledge, I have an idea I want to share who I am and how I got to where I am, I feel like I have a message that I really want to share. I feel that I have knowledge that I want to share and so I just shared…   Michael: …and people were clearly receptive to it.   Tamar: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, a lot, a lot of women are and men are reading it too, and getting a lot of benefit out of it. So it was really about what it's really all about and everything that that the listeners are do is about what is it that you want and what do you want to put into the world and how do you want to live and if you want real estate, by golly, just figure out a way to get it, you know, other people are doing it, why not you? They're not you're gonna, we're all just humans, we're all just people. The only difference between me and you is that I've done it a lot. So I have amassed a certain amount of wealth and you might be at the beginning or at a middle stage, it doesn't matter. It just you're on your journey. I'm on my journey. But you can still find properties.   Michael: Yeah, yeah, not so good. Someone once told me and I forget if it's a famous person or a quote, but you know, you look at someone that's really accomplished. The only difference between them and you as they've made a ton more mistakes than you. It's like, oh, yeah, like they've gone, they've gone through the stuff, right? It's true.   Tamar: That's true and most of the people just so that, you know, that I ever speak to, and that in the circles that I'm around where we're a lot of us have accomplished a lot. We have come from nothing. We have worked really hard, we have made a lot of mistakes, we continue to make mistakes, we continue to put ourselves out there. It's just working that muscle and just be willing to be in the world and create the life that you want.   Michael: So good, Tamar, it's no secret that the world of real estate investing is like oversaturated with dudes, it's like it's ridiculous and we've really tried to make an effort here at rootstock to highlight the women voices that are out there that are doing it. So what can you share with women that are out there who are wanting to get invested, but are feeling overwhelmed or nervous? Because it is such a male dominated space?   Tamar: Yeah. So it's, I think we're still 30% women are investors and we're, we're making strides and I would say, embrace the men embrace the good men and don't feel like it's us in them, just because they've been in the game a lot longer. Historically, we couldn't even buy property, it sounds insane to even say that, because none of it makes sense. Although it's true and we haven't had as much time in this arena. I would say I think the women that struggle more or any woman that starts thinking, oh, those guys, they did this they did that they're hard to work with. I have tons of partners that are men, I adore them as much as I adore the woman and that I work with that I partner with and I believe that if we all embrace what we want, and as a woman understanding that we have skill sets that men do not have and that there's place for us in the real estate investing arena, then we will continue to flourish and to make strides.   Michael: Love it, love it, love it. Tamar, this has been so much fun. Where can people get a copy of the book and how can they get a hold of you if they want to learn more?   Tamar: Yeah, awesome. The book is called The Millionaire mentality of professional women's guide to building wealth through real estate and you can get it just by going to tamarbook.com. It's T A M A R book.com and then also, I'd love to share my real estate investing personality quiz, which is also at the beginning of my book to support beginners and learning. How do you decide what area of investing you want to go into and that you can tamarquiz.com.   Michael: Amazing. Thank you so much and if people want to reach out or learn more about you, is there a good place for them to do that?   Tamar: Yeah, absolutely. You can visit my website at wealthbuildingconcierge.com or you can also send an email to me and my team at hello@wealthbuildingconcierge.com.   Michael: Amazing and we will link to those in the show notes. Well, thank you so much for taking the time Tamar. I really appreciate you coming on and I'm sure we'll be chatting soon.   Tamar: Awesome, thanks for having me.   Michael: You're welcome. Take care.   Alright, everyone, that was our episode, a big thank you to Tamar for coming on. Really, really great insights. Love the piece about the financial advisor that she talked about. So if you missed that, definitely go back and give it another listen. As always, we love hearing from you all with episode ideas, comments and feedback. So feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is get your podcasts and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing…

On the first episode of season 9 of Propcast, Louisa is joined by Michael Bristow, CEO and Co-Founder of CrowdProperty and Faisal Butt, Founder & CEO of Pi Labs. During the episode, they discuss how Pi Labs started, as well as how the PropTech market has changed and grown. Michael shares his journey from investor to founder, and chats about his specialist property development lending platform, CrowdProperty. With their 'property finance by property people' proposition, CrowdProperty and Pi Labs are disrupting property finance for small and medium sized developers who have previously struggled to access the financing they need. Resources: LMRE Global Recruitment and Search Consultancy LMRE YouTube Interviews Companies Mentioned: Spire Ventures OfficeRnD PropTech1 Fifth Wall GREENPASS Okibo  Lantech  Key Insights From This Episode:    We're disrupting property finance for small and medium sized developers, where historically financial services underserved them. - Michael   If you're a B2B SaaS business, it doesn't matter where you are because you can build a globally scalable business. - Faisal  If you can prove one market, you can arguably have the ability to scale in many markets. - Michael Australia has many duopolistic markets which typically drive less aggressive competition between players. - Michael Since there was such a dearth of liquidity for PropTech before, I find that there is more coming in now, but I don't think there is too much. I believe that the market needs to mature and that funding is needed at different stages. - Faisal Retention is what you need to focus on. When you have someone great in your team, you need to look after them because if not, they will go elsewhere. - Michael Keywords: Europe, Technology, Venture Capital, Finance, PropTech, FinTech About Our Guests: Mike Bristow Mike Bristow is the CEO and Co-Founder of CrowdProperty, the UK's leading specialist property development online lending platform. With a background in strategy consultancy advising major corporates and private equity funds on corporate strategy and M&A, Mike has been investing in property since 2002, investing in high potential proptech businesses since 2014 and sits on the Investment Committee of Pi Labs, Europe's first and most prolific venture capital fund investing exclusively in early stage ventures in the proptech vertical, in which he is also an LP. Mike has an MBA from London Business School, is a founding board member of the Innovate Finance 36H Group alongside other leading fintech lending platforms and was named 'Entrepreneur of the Year' at the Midlands Business Awards 2020. About CrowdProperty CrowdProperty is the UK's leading specialist property development online lending platform – a fintech/proptech lending innovator, exceptionally efficiently matching the demand (quality property professionals undertaking quality property projects) and supply (major global financial institutions and private investors) of capital for value-creating property projects. CrowdProperty has built the best SME property development lender in the market, changing the game with a distinct 'property finance by property people' proposition, unlocking the potential of small and medium sized developers to build more homes and drive spend in the UK economy on labour, materials and services.  Small and medium sized property developers and property professionals have been poorly and inefficiently served by traditional funding sources for decades. Actual property development and investment experience lies at the heart of CrowdProperty meaning a hands-on, expertise-led partnership, underpinned by technology for efficiency and deep asset class expertise for effectiveness of lending, increasing the likelihood of success of our customer's projects. CrowdProperty funds property professionals undertaking any sort of property project, structuring the perfect funding product and doing so with greater speed, ease, certainty, transparency and expertise than anyone in the market. As property people providing property finance, we intimately understand market pains and built the business around the needs of small and medium sized property developers.  CrowdProperty has funded over £400,000,000 of property projects and the construction of 2,000 homes. CrowdProperty was recognised as one of the 50 fastest growing tech businesses in the UK (UK #41 and Midlands #1 in the Deloitte Fast50 report) and by the Financial Times as the #132 fastest growing business in Europe. Apply for finance for your property project in just 5 minutes at www.crowdproperty.com/apply View video case studies of projects we've funded at: www.crowdproperty.com/case-studies    Faisal Butt Faisal Butt is CEO and Founder of Pi Labs, a London-based venture capital firm focused on backing companies that are at the forefront of digitalising the real estate and construction sectors. Faisal founded Pi Labs in 2015, after leading the first round of investments in PropTech start-ups Hubble and Trussle as an individual investor. Faisal and his team have built a portfolio of over 60 PropTech companies across the UK, Europe, North America, and Australia, making Pi Labs one of the most active investors in PropTech start-ups globally. Faisal is also the founder of Spire Ventures, a personal investment vehicle with a focus on investment in traditional property services companies. His traditional property investments include POD Management, Beaumont Bailey, and 90 North, a real estate investment manager which has managed $2bn of real estate assets across Europe and the USA. Global proptech venture capital (VC) firm Pi Labs backs the innovators revolutionising the future of physical spaces. Connecting next generation technologists with the real estate world and mentoring forward-thinking founders as they grow and scale their startups, Pi Labs' purpose is to solve the greatest challenges facing the real estate world through technology and create a positive impact on our physical environment for people, businesses and communities. Founded in 2014, London-based Pi Labs invests in early-stage proptech startups which are transforming the future of physical spaces across Europe – where it is the most active proptech VC. Its portfolio companies operate in global markets, including Asia and the US. From pre-seed to Series A and follow-on investments in later funding rounds, Pi Labs has grown its portfolio to more than 60 companies which are shaping the future of our physical spaces, with more than 50% of startups focused on addressing environmental and social issues. About Our Host Louisa Dickins https://www.linkedin.com/in/louisa-dickins-ab065392/ Louisa started her career in property working at a well-known estate agency in London. Realising her people skills, she moved over to Lloyd May to pursue a career in recruitment. She now is a Director at LMRE, who are a specialist recruitment firm driven by PropTech and recruitment professionals, and Louisa oversees their 5 core areas. Louisa co-founded LMRE and provides a constructive recruitment platform to the new disruptors in real estate. Louisa is also on the board of Directors at UK PropTech Association (UKPA). About LMRE www.lmre.tech LMRE believe there is a better way to recruit. LMRE focus on a more comprehensive, client led focus delivering exceptional talent to the place at the time. They are passionate about the industry and passionate about people's careers. LMRE spend time with each client to become and an extension of the business, and their transparency and core values help them grow with the sector. LMRE simplify recruitment and innovate with our clients and evolve the people driven, PropTech community. Timestamps: [02:40] Faisal: Why did you get into this space and how did Pi Labs come about? I started my career in California during the first .com boom and bust.  At 25, I quit the corporate world to join the entrepreneurial world and set up my own tech business. Being a founder led me to segwaying and deciding to do an MBA at Oxford.  In 2009, during the recession caused by real estate, I was looking for investment opportunities and I looked at investments into traditional real estate businesses. In 2013, I wanted to focus on the intersection between real estate and technology.  [05:00] How does Spire Ventures come into all of this?  I made investments before Pi Labs that were in traditional real estate and I decided that if I wanted to continue, I should set up an Investment Management Business - a Fund Management Business-  and separate personal investment from business investment. Pi Labs focuses on PropTech businesses where Spire Ventures focuses on traditional fee-generating businesses.  [05:40] Michael: You are an Investment Committee Member at Pi Labs, what does that mean and can you tell us more about the move you made from being an investor to a founder? My background started in Mechanical Engineering and I went into strategy consulting. I did things in the reverse route. I started as an advisor, went on to be an investor, and then went on to be a founder.  I did my MBA at the London Business School, pre financial crisis.  Since 2002, I have been investing in residential real estate.  Once the investment team has filtered a lot of businesses and they pieced together the investment thesis, they put that to the final approving committee called the “Investment Committee”.  [09:15] Talk us through finding CrowdProperty and the product. We are in full-on growth mode as a profitable FinTech, PropTech business. We fund small to medium sized property developers. We've got a lot of debt capital from major global asset managers; over £400M worth of property projects with over 2000 homes being built.  We have expanded into Australia [11:05] After your third fund raise, is the focus going to remain in Europe?  After our first fund was launched in 2015, we were mostly a UK fund and we had one company in Bulgaria which has turned into a global business. With our second fund, we started investing in the Netherlands, Finland, and throughout Europe and we wanted to focus on businesses that had a global thesis.  Our third fund is our most international fund.  [13:30] How much are you looking to invest?  We can invest anywhere from pre-seed to series A but our sweet spot is anywhere on the seed spectrum.  Checks can be as small as £100,000 to £1 million. This fund has a pretty significant amount of growth capital reserves. [15:00] Michael: Why is Australia the next point of call rather than the US? Most of my consulting career was spent advising businesses on international expansion.  Australia is a smaller market with 24 million in population and they are in the earliest stage of the evolution of FinTech and PropTech.  Australia has many duopolistic markets which typically drive less aggressive competition between players. You can drop in and be quite disruptive. [17:40] Faisal: You've done 25 investments, is there a direction for this fund?  We are quite a dynamic investor.  We are publishing our own research on a number of topics such as sustainability and ESG.  We are interested in robotics and the metaverse.               [20:55] What are the main challenges which are out there for you and other investors? Sifting through the volume and identifying the winners. There is such a dearth of liquidity for PropTech before that now  the market needs to mature.   [23:35] The ‘LMRE' part, Louisa asks the guests to talk about;  L – Touch on the main lessons you have learnt throughout your career. Faisal: Stay focused, be disciplined.  Michael: Focus drives expertise, world-class talent and competitive advantage. M - Please give a mention to anyone / product / service. Michael: Pi Labs R – What has been the most rewarding aspect of working in PropTech? Faisal: Watching businesses grow. Watching a founding team build to scale.  E - What are you excited about in the future of PropTech? Faisal: Deploying this capital into a batch of really exciting high calibre startups. Growing our team.  Michael:  Disrupting property development, finance, and helping more homes get built. Sponsors Launch Your Own Podcast Kopus.com is the leading podcast production and strategic content company for brands, organisations, institutions, individuals, and entrepreneurs. Our team sets you up with the right strategy, equipment, training, and guidance and content to ensure you sound amazing while speaking to your niche audience and networking with your perfect clients. Get in touch jason@kopus.com

Michael Benezra is the Executive Director and Co-Founder of the GK Fund: a nonprofit social impact fund to support BIPOC-owned companies in Greater Boston. Michael also serves as the COO of Colette Phillips Communications, helping to lead the All Inclusive Boston (https://www.bostonusa.com/allinclusivebos/) tourism campaign, among other projects. Chad talks with Michael about being a BIPOC ally, disparities amongst the VC world, and how the GK Fund looks for the same things in BIPOC-owned companies that they look for in other companies because the innovation is there; it's just that the opportunity isn't. The GK Fund (https://www.thegkfund.org/) Follow The GK Fund on Twitter (https://twitter.com/GK_Fund) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/thegkfund/). Colette Phillips Communications (https://www.cpcglobal.com/) All Inclusive Boston (https://www.bostonusa.com/allinclusivebos/) Black Owned Bos. (https://www.blackownedbos.com/) Follow Michael on Twitter (https://twitter.com/MichaelBenezra) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelbenezra/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Michael Benezra, Executive Director and Co-founder of the GK Fund, a non-profit social impact fund to support BIPOC-owned companies in Greater Boston. Michael is also the COO of Colette Phillips Communications, helping to lead the All Inclusive Boston Tourism Campaign, among other projects. Michael, thank you for joining me. MICHAEL: Thanks for having me. CHAD: I'm curious about the GK Fund. When did you start the Fund? MICHAEL: So, at the time, I was working for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, and I was working with venture capital firms, private equity firms. And I was representing over 200 Israeli companies in New England, most of them startups. And my wife is Black; my family is Black. I've been close to that community for a long time. And especially in the venture capital world, I started to see some real disparities amongst other disparities in general everyday life, but it was particularly bad in the VC world. And so Colette being a mentor and a friend of mine, Colette Phillips, I approached her, and I said, "Hey, what do you think about starting this fund, this non-profit fund?" And her and Andre Porter, who is our other co-founder who used to be the head of the state's business development agency in Massachusetts, we all decided to band together and start this non-profit. Now, we started the non-profit in December of 2019, so the pandemic hit right as we were creating this organization. And we had a decision to make, do we put this on hold, or do we move forward and accelerate? And we decided to just move forward. CHAD: Well, I'm glad you did. I'm glad you made that decision. Hopefully, you feel the same way. [laughs] MICHAEL: Yeah, I do. CHAD: You're absolutely right. There's a big need here. And I actually have had over the last two months or so a few different guests that are creating VC funds or funds of certain kind that address underrepresented communities, Black, another one was veterans. And there's such a big need. How did you decide what you were going to focus on or focus down into so, for example, focusing on Boston? MICHAEL: For Boston specifically, it had to do mostly with proximity. So I went to Harvard here for grad school. I worked for Governor Patrick. And so, for me, it was natural to stay local, especially during COVID. In my experience, there were a lot of BIPOC, particularly Black-owned startups, that were on paper akin to a lot of other startups in the Israeli world, which were very developed or also in the United States. I'll give you an example; there was a company that I worked with that had a $100 million valuation but had no products, no physical products. They had no revenue, but they had innovation. Now, you and I being very honest, do you think a Black-owned company could get away with that? CHAD: Yeah, no. MICHAEL: There is no way. I knew that; the other entrepreneurs that I've talked to know that. That is a terrible double standard that needs to be fixed. So we look for the same things in BIPOC companies that we look for in other companies because, for the most part, the innovation is there; it's just that the opportunity isn't. CHAD: Yeah. To dig into that a little bit more, I think one might say, well, if they had a founding team that had a proven track record, then maybe. And that's where you get to the fact that it's systemic, too, because if the headwinds are there where they can never get that experience, to begin with, they never get that opportunity, to begin with, then they're not going to have a founding team that has a track record that will be invested in based on just the team. MICHAEL: That is 100% accurate, but it's actually even worse. So we do not ask our founders in the application process for their educational background. But all six of the companies that got grants from us last November they all have their bachelor's, four out of six have masters or higher. And so the cream definitely rose to the top. We had a store owner she owns an online boutique who got an engineering degree from Purdue. And we also have an entrepreneur who was an attorney at State Street, a corporate attorney, and now he's created this startup. And so, in some cases, like in most other areas, these individuals are overqualified. CHAD: So, what is the funding model for GK on both sides of the equation? Where is the money coming from, and then how are you funding the companies? MICHAEL: So we raise money organically like any other non-profit does. So we apply for grants. We take corporate donations. We take individual contributions online. Most of our money so far has come in through corporate contributions. So PNC Bank has been with us since the beginning. They made a very large commitment to supporting racial equity, and they've really stuck to it. The Bar Foundation has been exceptional. And then we've also had a group of individual donors who were actually White women who have started their own non-profit now, and they've also banded together to give us money that we need to re-grant to the companies. We have over 100,000 from the State of Massachusetts to operate a grant program. So money is coming through a number of different avenues. We've issued six micro-grants so far at $10,000 each. We did that in November. We plan to do ten more in the next month. I said in the Boston Business Journal article you can give us money, but you can't park it with us like you could with a donor-advised fund and watch it accumulate interest for 15 years. We're going to take it, and we're going to give it to the people that need it the most. CHAD: And are they grants then? You're using the word grants, so I assume that they are. So you're not doing this in exchange for equity in the companies? MICHAEL: No, no equity in the companies, no convertible notes, just a straight capital grant directly to the company. So I send a message over to our fiscal sponsors at Philanthropy Massachusetts. They send the check directly over to the company. After that, we have the company fill out a survey letting us know what they plan to use it for, but we're not overly prescriptive. And that's actually the way that philanthropy is heading right now is, putting fewer restrictions and barriers in the way. And that's another thing I'll talk about as well is making it easier for companies to gain access. CHAD: So, did you ever consider more of a traditional VC fund model with this? MICHAEL: Yeah, originally, I did. Before the pandemic, actually, I did. So the original purpose or impetus of the fund was to take companies that were coming out of accelerator programs that were underfunded. You have some great accelerators, but you have companies leaving with a business plan and $2,000. In some cases, there are companies that have been through three accelerator programs. They're not getting as much out of it as they should. I wanted us to intervene, find the companies that have the most potential, and make investments. But after COVID hit, it was a crisis. And so, we needed to shift our focus to philanthropy. CHAD: The nice thing about that is then you can do those grants with basically no strings attached for the companies. Whereas if you were taking money from people who expect to get a return on that investment, you wouldn't be able to do that. MICHAEL: That's exactly right. There are organizations out there that say that they're making an impact when in reality they're just making, you know, loans which is not a not a bad thing. But they're issuing loans, or they're taking equity in the companies, that's fine, but it's not what we're doing. CHAD: What are your plans for, like, upcoming? Are you going to be continuing with micro-grants, or do you have bigger plans? MICHAEL: We have bigger plans. So I can't say too much right now because we have an announcement coming up. But I will say issues like legal services have come up. There's a constant need for attorneys for any company, whether it's contracts, or locking down real estate, or copyright and trademark, or IP. We are working with a very large prestigious law firm that's really making a generous commitment to our companies. And this would involve us even adding free legal services for an entire year to our grantees. So that's one thing that we're planning to do. And then the other is, and this another function of the fund, is we speak with organizations like Lyft who's donated like $5,000 in ride credits that we're giving to our grantees or Wix, which has given us like 75% off of websites. We work with partners who can also give us other services that we can provide to these companies to try to get them closer to where there's a gap. Giving them capital is not enough. The disparities are too significant. We also partnered with Berkshire Bank, so I can make direct referrals for loans if they need them. But the idea is to really narrow that gap and give these companies the same opportunities that their White counterparts have. CHAD: That's great. So you, as someone who's White doing this work, how do you find yourself in the community? How do you be an effective ally and advocate? MICHAEL: For me personally, my connection personally through my wife and also through my family and my boss. Colette is a pioneer. She's a Black woman in Boston who moved here not knowing anybody. And 30 years later, she's on The Power of 50 and 100 influential lists, but she did that through hard work. And she's worked much harder, I think, than she would have had to if she weren't a woman from Antigua who came here on her own. But ultimately, as an ally, it's my role; it's our role to step in between situations where there's inequity. So if there is a company, one of our companies, for instance, who's having a problem locking down real estate, (I think I use this in the article.), and they're saying, "Well, the real estate agent is telling us they can eliminate our lease at any time they prefer which I know is basically legal." I'll call them up and say, "Look, I'm with the fund. We're backing this company; we support them. What's the situation?" And unfortunately, most of the time, the outcome actually changes. So it's a matter of almost you got to be proactive, and you got to be intentional. You have to use your privilege in the best way that you can. So I think that's how you do it. And then, when it's time to shed a light on these companies, you take a step back, so it's not my role to go out there and promote myself. If anyone asks me, I'm always promoting the companies. So the best thing we can do is be advocates. You can be out front, but at the end of the day, it's about uplifting them, these companies in this case. CHAD: Yeah, that's great. Speaking of that, I was going to ask you, what are some of the companies that you have given the micro-grants to, and do you know how they use them? MICHAEL: Yeah, so we gave our grants to six companies. One is called MustWatch, and MustWatch is founded by Che, and Che, his family, is from Haiti. They are an app. You can actually find them on the App Store. But what they do is they allow you to log in, select which movies and television shows that you watch, and share them with your friends. And it sounds like a very simple concept, but there is actually nothing on the market that allows you to do this. And the idea is that you're collecting data while you're doing this as MustWatch. So at the end of the day, if you have a sample of like 20,000 users on the platform, you gain a lot of valuable insight and data. And that data can be useful for Nielsen or the television networks or movie production studios. I encourage people to sign up for MustWatch because if you spend as much time as I do looking for good movies, you're probably miserable. CHAD: [laughs] MICHAEL: [laughs] I spend so much time doing that. We also have a few online retailers. So we have B. Royal Boutique and So Zen Spa, both of them have doubled their revenue during COVID. They originally had stores. They pivoted during COVID, went online, and really were excellent when it comes to branding and marketing on social media and on other digital platforms. So they've been very successful. We have a company called Black Owned Bos., which is pretty well known here in Boston. They basically focus on organizing and running pop-up shops. And Jae'da, who's the head of the company, is just, I mean, she's a business mastermind. She's brilliant, always finding new ways to innovate. And then we have Our Village, which is focused on community development and housing. And finally, sySTEMic flow, which is a company that helps school districts, educators support Black women in STEM and STEAM fields. So we looked for companies that could pivot, basically. CHAD: And you mean in the face of the pandemic. MICHAEL: In the face of the pandemic, we looked for companies that had success and had a plan and also knew their audience. The main things that we look for…and I should say this too; our application process takes an average of seven minutes. And the way that I did that was I evaluated over 20 accelerator applications. I did a comparative analysis and identified the questions that were either irrelevant or unhelpful for us. And that gave us a very short application for our companies but one that's really efficient. And basically, what we're looking for is companies that have a good business model, have a very specific customer base and target market, and have a strong founder, and also has been undersupported. There are companies that we've identified for our next cohort that by this point in their development would have been venture funded in my experience, at least, had they not been people of color. Mid-Roll Ad I wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. Whether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U. CHAD: What has been the most surprising use of one of the grants? MICHAEL: So B. Royal used the grant money to lock down a store in Assembly Square in Somerville. We kind of anticipated they might do that. So Zen Spa they improved their website. MustWatch actually really surprised us. So they went out and got a valuation of their company and then basically worked with a crowdfunding platform called Netcapital to raise more capital. They had a very specific plan, and they had disclosed that plan to us. I just didn't anticipate they would act so quickly on it. And based on the fact that we had given them a grant and all this mentoring and support, their valuation actually went up. CHAD: That's a really smart use of the funds to propel that into a larger fundraise. That's really smart. MICHAEL: I agree. CHAD: So you do this in addition to a day job. [laughs] MICHAEL: I mean, they're both day jobs; it's just, yeah. CHAD: So you mentioned Colette Phillips, the person, [laughs] how about Colette Phillips Communications? So The All Inclusive Campaign it really is historic. The genesis of the campaign is that back in 2020, Colette and I applied for an RFP from the City of Boston; it was for a tourism recovery campaign. All of the major cities in the country got this grant money through regional tourism agencies, you know, like they're a special interest niche. And they went to the Feds, and they're like, "Look, we're suffering, travel is suffering, we need a grant," so all these grants went out. The City of Boston actually said, "Look, we want to focus on diverse tourism." So that was perfect for us. We applied, we got the grant. And we brought on Proverb, which is an incredible digital marketing agency and creative design agency, and the Greater Boston Convention & Visitors Bureau. It was the largest contract ever to go to a minority-owned company by the City of Boston, ever, and it was about 1.5 million. CHAD: Which in and of itself for what the City of Boston probably spends on things [laughs] is a little ridiculous that that's the biggest one, but … get beyond that, I guess. MICHAEL: It's insane. It's very upsetting. And it was a long time overdue. In this case, that contract or that RFP was really only supposed to last like one quarter. So all these regional tourism agencies they get their influx of money, a million dollars or a few 100,000. And then from there, they do the campaign, they move on. We are now three mayor's into this. We are four million dollars into this. We submitted the campaign to the city 60 days after they contracted with us; 84% of the contractors on the project are minority-owned companies. And in that 60 days before delivering the campaign, we actually never met in person. So we did this whole campaign virtually from the start. We came in under budget. We came in ahead of time. This is what happens sometimes when you let minority-owned companies take the lead. CHAD: Yeah, that's great. How do you do a campaign like this? I mean, this is why they came to you, the experts, but I think it's important that this message seem authentic and not pandering. MICHAEL: Yeah, Colette is a visionary. She's been talking about diversity and inclusion for like 20 years. There's an article that came out, I think, in 1992 where she was talking about the importance of diversity in the business community. And now it's like microfilm; you can't even find it digitally online. CHAD: [laughs] MICHAEL: She's years ahead of her time. And she's constantly innovating, and All Inclusive was her idea, and she branded it. I think it was a long time coming, basically. This is a culmination of a message and campaign that she's been running her whole life. CHAD: Yeah, I think that that's very powerful. And I think it comes across in the campaign. It seems authentic. I think it would be easy for it to not seem that way. And so yeah, it comes from that place of this was already a thing. It was already brewing. It wasn't just -- MICHAEL: Do you want to hear a story? CHAD: Yeah, I'd love it. MICHAEL: So, most of the media coverage for this campaign was exceptionally positive. There are a few reasons for that. We included all small, locally-owned businesses in the campaign. So you won't find celebrities, no athletes, or anything like that; we may do that later. We also invested...we took 200,000 of the contract, which this was not even supposed to be in there. We actually did ad buys with 19 different local newspapers. In some cases, these newspapers would have actually closed down if we had not done that, and that was just a byproduct of something we felt was important. But amidst all of that, she got invited to do an interview on Bloomberg on the local Bloomberg station. She's on the phone, and some guy who was on the other line, and I won't go into it too much, said, "You know, as a White man, I'm really offended. I don't feel represented in this campaign." [laughs] And she's like, "I've had enough of this," hangs up the phone. [laughs] And this is another part of allyship I think is...naturally, you know, I said, "Look, I'm taking care of this." I wrote a letter to Bloomberg. I said, "This is unacceptable. You need to take him to task." I don't know if he still works there anymore. But that's kind of the role. You have a Black woman who's a pioneer. She just released a campaign. The first thing you should be saying to her is "Congratulations," instead of saying that, all you can tell her is about how being a White man is like, I don't know, a disadvantage? Which is crazy. There are tons of White people in the campaign. I'm White; I'm in the campaign. CHAD: It's so foolish. I don't even want to have to explain it, but the campaign is literally called All Inclusive. MICHAEL: [laughs] Exactly, exactly. It covers everybody, I mean, literally. And it's like, I don't know what you want from us. CHAD: Yeah. And it's not even...like you go to the site it talks about here's what you can do with families. Here's what you can do with kids, kid-friendly activities. MICHAEL: This campaign was also research-based. So we spent 100,000 on research with this incredible company called Heart + Mind. They did a lot of research, and they did a lot of surveying. And the words that came back when describing Boston were unwelcoming, masculine; I think Tom Brady, Ben Affleck, crime, you know, just this kind of machismo unwelcoming environment. And it kind of confirmed some of the assumptions we had, but it was really surprising to see it in the data. So we said, "All right, this is what we're working with. We have to come up with a narrative that counters that because Boston is a majority-minority city, 23 neighborhoods, 60% of the population speaks two languages or more. That ethos is really not accurate. So hopefully, we're doing a good job. CHAD: So if folks want to help, we already said GK Fund is a non-profit. It's coming up to tax season [laughs], so at the very least, even if you don't...hopefully, you care about the cause, but if you just want that tax write-off, I suppose that's another reason to donate. MICHAEL: Absolutely. CHAD: So where can folks do that if they want to learn more and donate? MICHAEL: Visit www.thegkfund.org. CHAD: And are you looking for help in other ways beyond monetary? How can people get involved? MICHAEL: Absolutely. So we're looking for mentors so individuals who feel like they have experience or skills to lend to these companies, and we'll try to deploy these individuals in the best way possible. Obviously, we're looking for partnerships. So if you have a company that you feel has something to contribute or is willing to make a contribution, not monetarily but either with your products or with a discount, we also want to give that benefit to the companies as well. And there are a number of different ways. CHAD: That's great. And if folks want to follow along with you or get in touch directly with you, how can they do that? MICHAEL: You can feel free to follow me on Twitter. It's just @MichaelBenezra, all one word on Twitter. I got a lot of positive messages after the Boston Business Journal article came out and in LinkedIn as well. CHAD: Great. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes and a full transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Michael, thanks so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. MICHAEL: Yeah, thank you for having me. CHAD: And thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Michael Benezra.

Good Friday No Evidence for the ‘Pagan Easter' Thesis - There's a popular image that makes its rounds on social media every year about Easter and Ishtar. Let's put this bad argument to rest for good. – by Jon Sorensen Many Jews are fed up with Christians hosting Passover seders of their own Denise - How to talk with people who are Catholic but advocate pro-choice? (wants to revisit a response you gave to caller on March 10) Megan - Can you clarify what you meant about the angel of death passing over and the connection to our baptism. Michael - You got me started looking at the faith and tomorrow I will be confirmed! Andrea -  There are Messianic Jews who follow the old traditions and still believe in Jesus

This episode is part 2 of our talk with our guy in the financial industry, Michael Velasco. This week we're diving deep into 1031 Exchanges, which if you're not in the know yet, get out your notebook for this conversation. When you're talking with your clients about investment properties, the 1031 Exchange is a super-tool to increase wealth and build your portfolio while deferring tax payments down the line. Let's get into it.   “The IRS said, ‘We're going to give you the greatest benefit ever.' Congress always gives motivation through tax deferment for people to do things. They're incentivizing us to invest in America through stocks and through long-term capital gains, which is much lower than short-term capital gains, as we know. And then, they give us this beautiful little thing called depreciation and a 1031 exchange.” - Michael   First, what is a 1031 Exchange? As Michael states, “Being able to exchange property for another one of equal or greater value and avoid tax consequences. That's at the heart of a 1031 exchange. That's what it is.” Basically, if you're using the money you would gain from selling one property and using that money to buy another property of equal or greater value, you can defer the taxes that you would have incurred on that sale.   As with any kind of program like this, there are many other exemptions, caveats, and small details that are part of the program, so even this explanation is a bit simplistic. That's why we have Michael on to help us navigate the harder to explain bits and get more knowledgeable as agents about this fantastic tax tool.   “As a real estate agent, you're the pro, so you need to know this, right? Through your continuing education and through the studies that you're doing, you should really know this before you sit down and list a property. These are some questions: How long have you owned the property? Is this an investment or a primary residence? And then you say, here are the exemptions for primary residence, here's the macro level look at a 1031 exchange. You don't have to be an expert, but you do have to know that it exists.” – Michael   You can find Michael Velasco at https://www.instagram.com/provident_accounting/    Hey you! You're a long-time listener, time to be a first-time caller! Have a question or topic you'd like us to cover? Drop a line to our DM's at: Steve's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stevedvalentine/ Bernie's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bernzpix/   You can find us on all the major Podcast apps: Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, Stitcher, and more! Subscribe to be notified when new episodes are live and leave us a review and 5-star rating to help the show grow!  

A lot of real estate investors start out with single-family homes and soon realize that multifamily helps them scale much faster. But multifamily properties can come with more complications and many investors appreciate having learned the ropes in the single-family space before taking on this asset class. So is it smart to start small and work your way up or just dive into the deep end?    In this episode, Emil and Michael share their experience on this topic and point out the pros and cons of either strategy. --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's going on everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by my co-host…   Emil: Emil Shour   Michael: …and today Emil and I are going to be chatting about does it make sense to start with single family or with multifamily? So let's get into it.   Alright, Emil, how's it going, man? It's been a minute.   Emil: Good dude. How you doing?   Michael: Hanging in there hanging in, I got a couple of refinances that just close today that I'm working on for a long time, so really excited about that. So I'm going to be redeploying some capital here to some short term rentals. How's, how's the triplex sailing all smooth?   Emil: Yeah, I haven't, I haven't received an email in weeks. So that's my favorite kind of news is no news for my property manager.   Michael: It's a good sign. Yeah, oftentimes I would say.   Emil: Yeah, yeah… We've got tenants in place, you know, they're all fresh, no bad news. So fingers crossed, it keeps staying that way.   Michael: Sweet! Well, today, Emil and me want to talk about if it makes sense to start with single family or multifamily as you're just getting started. And you are someone that started with single families, right?   Emil: I did! My first investment property or actually any property I purchased. It was an investment property. It was a single family in Jacksonville, Florida in 2017.   Michael: Okay, and now you're a seasoned investor, you've got six units, I think, you've done some multifamily.   Emil: Yes sir.   Michael: Should you have done differently?   Emil: I am happy I started with single family. I think starting with one tenant, one home one unit, is the ideal way to start. I don't think, I don't think this is like one of those. There's a better or worse way. I think it's what is what is your appetite for pain? Do you do want to like learn really fast and deal with a lot of craziness at first or do you want something slow and steady and just like an easy on ramp? So for me having a full time job, at the time, starting with a single family was perfect. It was like, I got to learn how to manage a property manager different things that can go wrong. It was just an easier transition for me and I'm happy I started that way.   Michael: Yeah, it's funny you say appetite for pain. I think we just want to be careful to not give people the impression that single families can't be a highway on ramp to pain because you know, my first, my first investor was also a single family and it was like the most painful one ever. So I think it's, it's you can have you can have it either way. You can have horrible experiences with single family, you can have amazing experiences of multifamily. So it really just depends, I think how the asset is structured and where you're buying it.   Emil: Yeah, but you could… let's say you bought a quad Plex, right? You had the same thing, but times fours. It's just like your percentage. No, actually, I don't know, you could look at it either way, you could say, well, I have 4 units, my likelihood of 100% pain is much, is much less likely than so I think personally it's just easier to go with one, learn the ins and outs. Again, you're learning, especially if you're remote investing, you're learning how to do that, you're learning how to deal with a property manager. I think overall, it's just easier with one.   Michael: Okay, and let's dive a little bit deeper. I mean, talk to talk to us a little bit about like, when you say learning the ins and outs, what does that mean? What did you learn from investing in that single family that then better prepared you to invest in that triplex and what was totally brand new? Like what caught you off guard with the triplex?   Emil: That's a good question. I think it's just, you know, if you never if you've never owned your own home, there's all these moving parts of a home that you're not really like, I don't know how an H back works. How does plumbing work? What's uh, what's the main line? What's all these things? I've even forgotten already, as we're on this podcast, but like all, all these bars, all these parts of a home that you just you don't really know. I think that's one just getting more familiarized with all the moving parts.   Michael: Does it matter that you didn't know how an H back works? I mean, you don't know how a car engine work. I mean, I assume I don't want to I don't want to put words in your mouth. But do you know how a car engine works?   Emil: Here's the difference. A lot of things go wrong with your property. I don't say a lot, but things go wrong, right? And it's on you to know, how much does it cost to get that fixed, right? Like if someone said, Hey, your condenser broke? We're gonna replace it for $10,000, how would you know if that's accurate or not?   Michael: I gotcha, I see what you're saying. Okay!   Emil: So that's that's one thing.   Michael: But it's the same thing with car if you take your car to the mechanic and they say, oh, you're continuing to trance function or is broken. We're gonna turn into $1,000 to fix it. So our concept, right, I guess you have to you have to chat with other people…   Emil: Well my first car was a $6,000 used car. So I would just say, okay, you guys keep it, I'll go get a new one, you know what I mean…? I mean, it's like, it's, it's also, in most cases, less less dollars in, right. So a multifamily is going to be more dollars in your learning on more dollars versus single families less dollars in potentially, so less dollars you potentially have on the line to learn.   Michael: All right, all right. I will, I'm gonna I'm gonna take a… alternative position on that one and push back, I think that you can actually find multifamily in particular markets that are as inexpensive or less than some single family. I mean, they're single family all over the place in the 2,3,4- $100,000 verse multifamily, you can find properties that are less than so I think that's a very common misconception that people fall into is oh, multifamily is automatically more expensive and I don't know that that's necessarily the case for every market.   Emil: Yeah. But then you're putting you're potentially putting the cart before the horse, right? You're saying I'm going to go find a market where it meets this versus you should find a market that you like, and then look within that market?   Michael: Hmmm… Yep. So you're letting the deal dictate the market or letting the market dictate the deal?   Emil: Right! I think it's like some people will just I started that way, right. I said, okay, this is how much I want to spend, which markets kind of fall into that, which is one way, but I don't know if that's the right way. I don't know if it's the wrong way. But I would, I would rather if I could start it all from scratch, say like, what is the market I want to really invest in? And then secondarily, who is the property manager, I want to invest with?   Michael: Oh, that's very well said. And so you're someone that wants to kind of cluster their investments in the same market? It sounds like…?   Emil: I would yeah, I think I've said that, like on previous episodes being scattered across couple different markets, I think finding one market you like, you're finding good deals, you have a good property manager, again, to me, that's the key is finding a property manager. It's tough, it's like how do you find that good property manager without trying several markets, right?   Michael: If you get some perspective and you go other places, you realize, oh, man, my manager was amazing, or well, my property manager kind of sucked.   Emil: Right, right. Well, that's the value of I think networking and talking to other people who are doing real estate investing rather than just going solo.   Michael: Totally, totally. And I cut you off before to go down this rabbit hole but you were saying, you were talking about what the ins and outs were that you actually learned that prepped you to be ministers as a multifamily investor.   Emil: I don't think I'm a successful multifamily investor. I have one drive legs and that's been a big learning experience. I don't know, it was just it was a different learning experience in that I had multiple tenants leave at the same time. You know, single family, you're not paying a lot of the utility bills, right. So you're learning on the multifamily, like, what are my actual expenses? What do I cover? And how much are they each month? So it's like, yeah, you can estimate and talk to people, but like, it's just things you're going to learn by doing and buying? I don't know…   Michael: Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense, I think it makes a lot of sense…   Emil: Those are of the things that come to mind.   Michael: Yeah.   Emil: And then, you know, how long does your average single family tenant stay versus multifamily? Like, yes, their stats online, but it's to me another one of those things you learn by doing?   Michael: Yes, very much so, very much so. See, it's so funny, so many of the points you brought up for single family, I agree with and I think are valid, but I have like the opposite experience and I experienced those things with multifamily. So I actually have another episode too, like my first two investments were single family. I had the tenants leave every single year, they did a ton of damage on the way out and had to go to small claims court. So I was like, oh my God, this sucks. So that's ultimately kind of what led me to multifamily, I was like, oh, I gotta do something different. This is not this is not working out. So had much better luck with multifamily and that's where I've been focusing on since.   Emil: For the record, where are your single family, those two single families you bought?   Michael: They were both in California, in Southern California.   Emil: Southern California is a tough market for landlords, man…   Michael: It very much is…   Emil: That I think probably played some into it, potentially for you.   Michael: I think so, I think so. But also I mean, like given that I've also purchased I purchased two flip properties. One was in Birmingham, Alabama and the other in Kansas City, KC Mo, and that's been those have been paying to the butts too and so I think it's it's not a one size fits all like you were saying and it's it's very much personal preference.   Emil: Sure   Michael: But some takeaways that I had from investing in small multifamily, so two, three and four units is, as he touched on earlier, was the likelihood that you have both tenants or all of the tenants having issues or vacancy or causing damage, the Cisco likelihood just goes down. And so that's why a lot of people buy multiple properties because if you have one property, the likelihood of having one vacancy is fairly high if you have two that goes down, so on and so forth as you expand your portfolio. And so you can do that and acquire more units and increase the statistical likelihood of success.   Success in this case, meaning not no vacancy and less repairs, with fewer transactions and so it just becomes, easier from a management standpoint and easier from a mental capacity standpoint, when you're thinking about, okay, I've got one address to worry about, these are all the things going on there as opposed to these five different addresses to keep track of and so I think for from a small multifamily perspective, like, again, those two to four units, it's fairly similar from a how to own and operate perspective and I think you nailed that also talking about like the expenses and so from that perspective, it can be a little bit different, and your expense load and what your operating costs look like, and who pays what and how often you might have a turn. And but the cool thing is, the financing is the same. So if you go buy a one single family or a two to four unit, and you're getting conventional financing, that's the same, which is really, really cool. It's not until you make that gap into that five plus unit space that it changes into commercial financing.   Emil: Right. And that's probably something important to consider here as well, if you're like thinking about multifamily or single family is, well, if you have less time, let's say you wanna invest real estate, but you have less time, right? Multifamily, we know is valued on how well can you make it perform, it's more like a business, tather than, you know, one to four unit, you're kind of writing the ups and downs of the market to value it right. It's all sales comps. So maybe if you have more time, and you can you feel like you can manipulate the NOI on that property, get it valued higher to do those things. Maybe multifamily makes more sense for you and then but maybe if you're you know, super busy and you want something a little bit more passive, I've just found that my single family has been more passive, my attendance stay longer. I haven't done the triplex for a ton of time. It's been a year and a half. But my tenants stay longer, I hear less things overall, is what I've is my personal experience with, very limited units, so…   Michael: Yeah, I think you've made a great point talking about time, time perspective, I would just add to that, that if you're just starting out and taking on a multifamily investment, finding something that's that has a value add component might be tough. And it really comes down to like, I know, I was way in over my head with my first multifamily deal I had. Because I just feel like you don't know what you don't know and so you're jumping in, like you mentioned, to this multiple unit situation where all of these things are new, versus trying to figure it out with one tenant and one property in one door, where everything is still new. And so I think that there it's it's often an easier pill to swallow. But if someone is super gung ho and wants to take risks and has the financial wherewithal to back it up, and is like yeah, I know I'm gonna I'm no, I'm gonna learn lessons, but I want to learn lessons hard and fast. Multifamily can be a really great way to do that. Most value add now layering that on top of that is another way to learn even harder and faster and more expensively. So if someone's just starting out, I think and they're gung ho about multifamily, I think a turnkey multifamily can be a really a really great way to go.   Emil: Yeah. That's something interesting you kind of bring up their trauma to me not trauma, but like recollection of my this, this triplex my first multifamily is when you're wrong on your calculated repair costs and all that it compounds, right. So if you have three units, you got a turn, and you think it was 5k each and you were wrong, it multiplies faster than oh, the the kitchen on my multimeter and my single family, I thought was gonna be 5000 ended up being 6000, right. Like, you just multiply it if you're wrong multiple times.   Michael: Yeah. No, it's such a good point, it's such a good point. I wholeheartedly agree.   Emil: Yeah. But it's good. That's a good learning experience that, you know, people should go through.   Michael: Yeah, well, I would argue I would have preferred to have someone else go through it and tell me about it and then I could learn from their mistakes, which is why we started the Roofstock academy. By the way, we talked about, hey, this is purpose built for investors, by investors for all the crap that we had to go through that we wish other people had told us ahead of time.   Emil: True, true and it's also valuable in that, like, your cost will change from market to market, right? So having other people in the same market you invest in, it's just so valuable.   Michael: Totally, totally. And oh, I forget who said it. I don't know if it's a famous quote, or it was someone I just heard talking, but they're saying like, not every dollar of rent is created equal, in that in every market you go to, just because it looks attractive on paper doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be, you know, a rosy walk in the park and so be very particular and do your due diligence around okay, what is the market do? And what is the market doing? And why is this thing, both single family or multifamily, the price that it is both from a rental perspective, as well as a cost perspective. So if you're like, holy crap, I can go buy these $200,000 property rents for five grand a month. Why is that? You know, what, did you find a unicorn? Maybe? And let's, you know, go figure that out, just because it's so good. It shouldn't scare you but you should definitely put up a red flag and say, okay, well, let's investigate this further and find out why this is the way it is.   Emil: Right.   Michael: Awesome. Any other points Emil, before we get out of here?   Emil: No, I think I think we actually cover this one pretty well, in terms of our individual experiences, pros and cons of each thing and it was well covered.   Michael: Love a good humblebrag… Awesome, let's get out of here.   Emil: More so by you, you're just grilling me and I'm like, uh,… I still remember Michael, it was four years ago.   Michael: You tried to block it out of your mind? Forget about it.   Emil: Yeah, I'm like, I don't know. I just it's kind of one of those things where you're like, you just put one foot in front of the other and you know, you're drinking from the firehose, so…   Michael: Totally. Yeah. Well, but real quick, so last question, before we get out of here. How has that investment panned out for you, that first single family?   Emil: My first one?   Michael: Yeah.   Emil: So yeah, it's been a cash cow and if you hear crying in the background, that's my newborn baby in, shout out in.   Michael: My baby boy in… baby boy… Emil: Baby boy… So when I bought it, I think the rent was somewhere around 900 and we've just had steady rent increases and the same tenant for four plus years now. So I think now it's at like 10350 or somewhere like that. Yeah, and just having the same tenant is so valuable. I love it. It's so nice. That's my favorite thing was single families. They seem to stay longer.   Michael: Love it. So what was probably a good deal at the time has now turned into if you saw it today, a great deal, it sounds like…   Emil: Yeah, I think it was a, if I'm being objective. It was a decent deal at the time and now it's become a pretty good deal for me.   Michael: Love, time, compounded with like good decisions. That should be like an equation time. Time plus good decisions equals, I don't know, killer deals. Hey, everyone…   Emil: Michael Einstein, the Einstein of real estate.   Michael: So dumb… awesome. Well, let's get out of here, Emil. That was our episode, everyone. Thank you so much for hanging in there with us through all those rabbit hole side tracked conversations. As always, if you liked the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is you get your podcast, and we look forward to seeing the next one. Happy investing.   Emil: See you later.

We're going practical and tactical this week on Thinking OTB with our guest Michael Velasco from Provident Accounting and talking about something that should be on the front of every entrepreneur's mind: properly managing your taxes. It's one of those messy subjects where there's so much to know that it can be paralyzing to know where even to start, but if you wait too long that has its own pitfalls too. Well, that's where the tactical part comes in because Michael is just the agent to get the ball rolling on what you need to know as a business owner.   If you're just starting out, you're probably more focused on getting those early successes that will be the foundation of your business moving forward. You've got your license and your're ready to take the market by storm if you can. We hear you! Success is the best motivation no matter where you're at in your business. But you also want to be set up properly, so those successes aren't working against you when it comes to taxes.   “I think that's probably the biggest mistake, right? Real estate agents say, ‘I want to get a real estate license and be an entrepreneur,' but they forget that it's a small business and never set up an entity. They start commingling their real estate commissions and business expenses with their personal account, and then it's a massive liability.” – Michael Velasco   “If you're good at real estate, focus on real estate and let somebody else do the accounting. I see this a lot where people just don't budget for any type of accounting for their business, and they don't want to spend the money and then it ends up costing them.” – Michael   Our conversation with Michael is all about getting to know what you don't know about setting up your business for long term success. The truth is that you're expected to be a subject matter expert in your field, but you're not expected to be an expert in all things. That's what having a good CPA is all about. Investing in people you can partner with to help guide your business is one of those nitty gritty realities of working for yourself. That's why we have guests like Michael on, to show that there are people out there ready to help you be the best agent you can be.   “I think I get a lot of great joy in helping people. At the end of the day, it's like, ‘Hey, I've been there before.' We're human beings, and we're just flawed creatures to begin with. The question is, how can we try to make everyone's lives a little bit better?” – Michael   You can find Michael Velasco at https://www.instagram.com/provident_accounting/    Hey you! You're a long-time listener, time to be a first-time caller! Have a question or topic you'd like us to cover? Drop a line to our DM's at: Steve's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stevedvalentine/ Bernie's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bernzpix/   You can find us on all the major Podcast apps: Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, Stitcher, and more! Subscribe to be notified when new episodes are live and leave us a review and 5-star rating to help the show grow!

On this episode of the HackerNoon podcast, Amy Tom and Michael Brooks get into everything freelance. They dive into https://golance.com, Michael's freelance marketplace company. How it came about and Michael's insights on running it. They talk about wild experiences like getting kicked out of Belarus and taking a shot of Brandy first thing every morning before work in Serbia. It's a wild ride and you definitely should tune in! Brandy or coffee in hand, your choice ;)