On The Line

For this, the second installment of our two part leadership series, and the last episode of On The Line season four, Mark Smith from Mission Centered Solutions joins the podcast. Mark reviews the creation of the first Leadership (L) courses in wildland fire after the South Canyon Fire, his work with Honor the Fallen and their essay “The Big Lie” following the Yarnell Hill Fire, and his assessment of where leadership training is at in the fire services today and the challenges that lie ahead. The Big Lie can be found at the following link: https://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-big-lie.html For the first time ever, this episode of On The Line is also available as a vodcast. It can be found at YouTube at: https://youtu.be/Ky0UJH4VCmY?si=ORdBBq49jU9eZMjt

For the next two episodes (Leadership Alpha, Leadership Bravo) On The Line is focusing upon leadership in wildland fire. And for the first of those episodes, we are so fortunate to have Mike Degrosky kick off that conversation. Mike has spent more than forty years in the fire service, in roles as diverse as volunteer, hotshot, Ops Section Chief, FMO, Training Officer, and Chief Officer. His academic credentials are equally as impressive: bachelors degree in forestry and fire science, masters and doctoral degrees in Leadership Studies. He has consulted, primarily in the space of leadership development training, and he just recently retired as Chief of the Fire Protection Bureau at Montana DNRC. He continues to write the acclaimed "Thoughts on Leadership" column in Wildfire Magazine. 

In this, the fourth episode of season four, Dr. Phil Higuera from the University of Montana's Paleoecology and Fire Ecology Lab joins the podcast to discuss his and others' recent research efforts focusing upon declines in conifer resilience, the increasing loss of structures in western wildfires, and how climate change in general is affecting the fire landscape.  https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2208120120 https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article/2/3/pgad005/7017542 https://theconversation.com/western-wildfires-destroyed-246-more-homes-and-buildings-over-the-past-decade-fire-scientists-explain-whats-changing-197384   As mentioned at the end of the podcast, UM graduate student Luke Santore is studying firefighter wellbeing. If interested in taking part in his research, please scan the QR code below for the firefighter wellbeing survey. Or go to, tinyurl.com/wlffwellbeing   

While females make up 10-12% of the wildland fire workforce, very little is known about them from a research perspective. Katie Christison, a Ph. D. student at the University of Montana, joins host Charlie Palmer to discuss her research focusing upon how female wildland firefighters (wlff) may be challenged to maintain thermoregulation and hydration balance due to hormonal fluctuations across the menstrual cycle. Katie also discusses some of the other gaps in our understanding of the female wlff experience, and upcoming research that might fill in these holes.    As mentioned at the end of this podcast, UM graduate student Luke Santore is examining wlff wellbeing. To access Luke's survey, scan the QR code below, or go to tinyurl.com/wlffwellbeing  

Critical Training (CT) represents a two week (80 hour) period of time at the beginning of the season for each crew. Much important work happens during these fourteen days, including key training, physical challenges, completion of the pack test, and the initial efforts at building crew cohesion. While it remains a vital piece of each crew's development, little is known about the CT process from a research standpoint. Researchers Dr. Chuck Dumke and soon to be Dr. Katie Christison from the University of Montana join host Charlie Palmer to discuss their multiple studies examining Critical Training, and the important results from these investigations. In the most recent study, nearly one in four subjects reached critical levels of Serum Creatine Kinase during CT.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37258394/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37258395/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34184652/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33769401/

In this, the first episode of season four, a visit from the incomparable Dr. Brent Ruby. Brent has been studying wildland firefighters in the lab and the field at the University of Montana for the last two and a half decades, and he stops by the podcast studio to discuss with moderator Charlie Palmer his latest published work: a never before done comprehensive review focusing on firefighter physiology. Compiled with co-authors Robert Coker, Joe Sol, John Quindry, and Scott Montain, this journal article exams key performance areas such as nutrition, hydration, physical training, heat illness, altitude, smoke exposure, psychological stress, and sleep. The episode concludes with Dr. Ruby providing a sneak peek in to some of his upcoming research efforts.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36994767/

While much is known about the science of wildland fire behavior, the same cannot necessarily be said about our understanding of the impacts that these blazes have upon those tasked with putting them out. Although that knowledge base is slowly building, much remains to be learned about the psychological and behavioral health of wildland firefighters (WLFF’s). Thanks to the recent research efforts of clinical psychology doctoral student Patty O’Brien (a former Lolo Hotshot, and now Dr. O’Brien), we now know a great deal more. Patty was able to survey over 2600 current or former wildland firefighters to learn more about their demographic, employment, and clinical characteristics, as well as their health behaviors. In this, the tenth and final podcast of On the Line season three, Patty and her doctoral advisor Dr. Duncan Campbell join host Charlie Palmer to discuss some of her groundbreaking findings, and to chart out a course for future steps.

The human brain is the most resilient organ in the body. Yet, even it is susceptible to harm, not only from outside physical sources, but from internal mechanisms as well. Due to the nature of the work they do, wildland firefighters can be exposed to traumatic events. These incidents may have an impact upon our mental and behavioral health. BLM Battalion Chief Asad Rahman from Carson City, Nevada (and previous guest for our Season 2, Episode 10 CISM podcast) and Dr. Deb Silveria, a psychologist from The Counseling Team International, join us “On the Line” to talk about post traumatic stress, and post traumatic growth.

Tune in for this special Season 3 bonus podcast when journalist Ali Pattillo joins the program to discuss her recent article regarding wildland firefighter mental health with host Charlie Palmer and cohost Brent Ruby. https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/wildland-firefighters-are-burning-out  

Ibuprofen, a member of the class of medications known as nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS), is one of the most widely used over the counter medications in the world. It is quite effective for treating pain, reducing fever, and lessening inflammation in the body. However, overuse of ibuprofen can lead to gastrointestinal problems, and may place stress upon the kidneys, and these renal complications can be magnified by the work demands that firefighters face (high aerobic and anaerobic output, dehydration, and heat exposure). Dr. Rob Amrine, a sports medicine physician, and Dr. Eric Stone, a gastroenterologist, join the podcast to talk about ibuprofen, potential side effects from its use, dosing, and potential alternatives.

Athletic trainers (AT’s) are health care professionals who specialize in the prevention and care of injuries. While they’re a familiar presence in sporting environments, they do not have a large footprint working with tactical populations. Although the U. S. military has begun to hire more of them, wildland fire has not followed suit. Yet. Dr. Valerie Moody from the University of Montana Athletic Training Education Program and Athletic Trainer Bella Callis join the podcast to talk about the profession, how it might be of benefit to firefighters, and year one of a feasibility study during the summer of 2019 where AT’s were embedded with the Missoula Smokejumpers. This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Although only about the size of a mouse turd, Dendroctonus ponderosae, also known as the Mountain Pine Beetle, has been responsible for what is being called the largest insect blight ever recorded in North America. Millions and millions of trees have been killed through infestation, which has led to massive forest ecosystem changes. Dr. Diana Six from the University of Montana’s Franke College of Forestry and Conservation joins the podcast to share her world renowned expertise about this fascinating creature.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider.  

19th Century American bars would often times offer a “free lunch” as an attempt to entice drinking customers in to their establishments. The catch was that patrons usually had to purchase at least one drink, and often times the foods served were high in salt content, thus leading to more thirst and higher beer sales. In response, economists of the era created the acronym TANSTAAFL: there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. Wildland fire has its own version of the free lunch. You just have to be willing to work extremely long shifts, in difficult and at times dangerous conditions in order to get it. Frequent “On The Line” contributor Dr. Brent Ruby re-joins the podcast along with its host Charlie Palmer, as does current registered dietician/former hotshot and smokejumper Wanda King, to talk about the firefighter sack lunch, what’s in it, what it attempts to do, and proposed changes to the contract. Let’s strap on the feedbag!    This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

After the podcast episode “Smart and Smarter” came out during Season 2 of On The Line (with guest Drs. LLoyd Queen and Carl Seielstad) firefighter/scientist Casey Teske provided us with some awesome feedback when she suggested we also talk with the guys about drones. Casey, thanks for the great idea! We got one of them (Carl) along with another National Center for Landscape Fire Analysis employee, the uber talented Tim Wallace, to tell us about drones and some of the many ways in which they are using them in fire and other applications. Tune in to find out more.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Running. It’s part of the fire culture. Whether it’s to stay in shape, to prepare for the pack test, or just for enjoyment, firefighters run, and far. Yet, how well does running translate to the specific job duties of the wildland firefighter, and what are some strategies for running injury-free?University of Montana professors Matt Bundle and Chuck Dumke join the podcast to answer these questions, and many others. Check it out!   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Relationships are tough enough as it is to maintain successfully. With wildland firefighters, factors like unpredictable work schedules, absences, and communication challenges due to remote work environments can complicate matters even more. And yet, beside many firefighters stand strong, resilient partners who are able to successfully navigate these challenges. Smokejumper wives Korey Wolferman and Tobi Kearns join the podcast to talk about what life is like for “the other half.”     This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Transitions can be a challenging time, whether they be when a fire is changing classification type, or when firefighters are moving into retirement. The former transitions are talked about a great deal. The latter, not so much. Recently retired Missoula Smokejumpers Mitch Kearns and Keith “Skid” Wolferman join the podcast to talk about how the retirement process went for them. They also weigh in on mentoring and leadership, and Skid brings listeners up to speed on his upcoming D-Day re-enactment jump into Normandy.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

This is it, the tenth and final podcast of Season 2. Critical Incident Stress Management, or CISM, is a process designed for helping those who have experienced traumatic events be able to share their perspectives with others, learn about common stress reactions, express emotions, and obtain information about follow up assistance that might be available. The CISM program for wildland firefighters, which is based upon a peer support model, has been an incredibly effective resource for our personnel. Heath Cota from the Forest Service and Asad Rahman from the BLM join the podcast to share their perspectives about CISM.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

After a somewhat lengthy Season 2 hiatus, “On The Line” is back with a brand new podcast. United States Senator Jon Tester from the state of Montana joins the program from Washington, D. C. to talk about the importance of funding for wildland fire, what is happening right now in DC that might be relevant to firefighters, and how those of us involved in wildland fire can better work together to support the health and safety of our nation’s first responders.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

The original Jose’s Bag podcast had such stellar and rave reviews (fake news?), that we are back with another installment. In Jose’s Bag 2.0, Luke Alford from the University of Montana’s Health and Human Performance Department steps in for Jose, and he is joined by host Charlie Palmer and UM exercise physiologist/sport nutritionist Dr. Chuck Dumke to examine and discuss four items: coffee, Copenhagen, Vitamin C, and coconut oil.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Prodigious friends Drs. LLoyd Queen and Carl Seielstad from UM’s National Center for Landscape Fire Analysis stumble across a suitcase full of questions posed to them by podcast host Charlie Palmer. The pair, who live dual lives as both fire scientists and fire managers, have their patience and their brains tested as they contend with Palmer’s at times sophomoric queries.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

As a wildland firefighter, if you don’t recognize the name Brian Sharkey, you probably should. The author of twelve books, developer of the pack test and work to rest guidelines, and some of the earliest examinations of woodsmoke exposure around, you name the topic and Sharkey probably studied it during his four and a half decades of firefighter research at the University of Montana and with the Forest Service. Professor Emeritus Sharkey joins the podcast, along with his one time mentee, Dr. Brent Ruby, to discuss a wide range of fascinating topics.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Eating the proper foods at the appropriate time is an essential component of recovery, especially for tactical athletes like wildland firefighters. Dr. Brent Ruby from the University of Montana’s Center for Work Physiology and Exercise Metabolism re-joins the podcast for a follow up to his season one pod on nutrition, this one focusing upon post-shift nutrition.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

University of Montana Health and Human Performance Department graduate student Jose Pena joins the podcast to discuss over-the-counter, alleged performance-enhancing products. Jose is a Chilean who came to the U. S. to play collegiate soccer, and has been involved with UM’s wildland firefighter research. While performing numerous surveys and interviews with WLFF, Jose heard of the widespread use of dietary supplements similar to that in athletics. Jose’s bag contains various items, all of which claim in some way to make users bigger, stronger, faster, or more alert. UM sport nutrition professor Chuck Dumke provides research based analysis on what role, if any, they play in helping WLFFs meet the demands of their job.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Wildland firefighting represents a high risk occupation, and exposes those who engage in it to a significant amount of danger and uncertainty. Decision making and cognitive function take on added importance as firefighters attempt to manage these risks. Canadian researcher Dr. Michael Williams-Bell from Durham College joins the podcast, along with Drs. Chuck Dumke and Charlie Palmer from the University of Montana, to discuss recent research they have completed in cognitive function, and what these findings mean for wildland firefighters.    This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Never before have wildland firefighters been assessed for physiological changes over the course of an entire fire season. Until now. Dr. Trey Coker from the University of Alaska Fairbanks teamed up with our own Dr. Brent Ruby to investigate seasonal alterations in a group of firefighters, and their surprising results have led to more questions than answers. Coker and Ruby join the podcast to discuss their research, it’s counter-intuitive findings, and possible directions for future investigations.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

The Work Capacity Test, otherwise known as the pack test, has been in use for nearly 25 years. Designed as a measure of muscular strength and aerobic capacity, the arduous version of the test entails hiking three miles on even terrain while carrying 45 pounds in 45 minutes or less. Drs. Brent Ruby and Matt Bundle join host Charlie Palmer to discuss the science behind the pack test, misconceptions surrounding it, and strategies on how to train more effectively for load carriage.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Maclean. The name is synonymous with many things: great writing, fishing, and fire to name just a few. On this, the tenth and final episode of season one, author John Maclean joins the podcast, along with University of Montana researcher Brent Ruby and host Charlie Palmer to discuss South Canyon, the history of hotshots, and John’s current book project on the Yarnell Hill fire that killed nineteen Granite Mountain Hotshots.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

About 42,000 Americans take their own lives every year. While no known research has looked specifically at suicide prevalence rates within wildland firefighters, it appears to be a major concern within our population. Studies looking at structural firefighters indicate that they are three times more likely to die by suicide than a line of duty death. University of Montana professors Annie Sondag from the Health and Human Performance Department and John Sommers-Flanagan from the Counselor Education Department join host Charlie Palmer to discuss this important topic on the podcast.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Few people can claim to possess a fire career that spans over four decades. From being a first year firefighter with the California Division of Forestry in the 1970’s, to thirty-four years of smokejumping with the Forest Service, and ending with a final six year run with the Montana Department of Natural Resources and Conservation, Wayne Williams possesses a depth of capabilities and a wealth of knowledge that are unrivaled in the world of wildland fire. The importance of fitness, experience, and mentoring are highlighted in the podcast, as is a compelling review of some of the fascinating events within Wayne’s long fire career.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Dr. Chuck Dumke and Dr. Brent Ruby from the University of Montana re-join the podcast to discuss this vital component of performance. Hydration plays an important role in firefighter safety, and yet at times its significance has been over-emphasized. “Hydration is not a rescue from heat related injuries. It’s an important component to avoid hypo-hydration, but hydration isn’t going to rescue you from other bad decisions,” says Dumke. Optimal intake amounts are debated, Camelbaks vs. canteens are discussed, and the role of sports drinks in comparison to water consumption are also explored.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Firefighters can expend upwards of 6200 calories per day during rigorous operations. Therefore, what they eat, when they eat, and how much they eat become extremely important factors that must be taken in to consideration by not only the firefighters themselves but also fire managers. Dr. Brent Ruby, director of the Montana Center for Work Physiology and Exercise Metabolism and professor in UM’s Health and Human Performance Department, joins the podcast to discuss this critically important topic. This podcast, the first in a two part series on nutrition, focuses primarily upon the food demands faced by firefighters while they are operational. The second part of the series, which will air in Season Two of “On the Line”, will concentrate on the role of nutrition in recovery.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Not only are firefighters exposed to wood smoke as a part of their occupations, but so too are millions of humans across the globe who must contend with this byproduct of combustion in the places they live. In this episode of “On the Line”, University of Montana exercise physiologist Dr. Chuck Dumke is joined by wood smoke researcher Dr. Tony Ward from the University of Montana’s School of Public and Community Health Sciences to discuss some of the science behind wood smoke, its health risks, and strategies to better manage exposures, both for firefighters and members of the general public. Photo courtesy of: J. Chapman of Black Roast Coffee Co.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

In this episode of On the Line, University of Montana biomechanist Matt Bundle and clinical psychology doctoral student Patty O’Brien join the podcast to discuss the concept of recovery and how it relates to wildland firefighters. Some of the science behind recovery is examined, and the roles of rest, sleep, and nutrition are also reviewed.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

Although thousands of wildland firefighters are employed every year, and despite the fact that many of them sustain injuries while on the fireline or preparing themselves for the rigors of the job, very little is known about wildland firefighters and injury from a research perspective. In this episode, Dr. Valerie Moody from the University of Montana Athletic Training Program joins moderator Charlie Palmer to discuss the few studies that have been done, their results, and what they can tell us about firefighter injuries.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

According to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, Rhabdomyolysis, or rhabdo, is “a medical condition associated with heat stress and prolonged physical exertion, resulting in rapid breakdown, rupture, and death of muscle. When muscle tissue dies, electrolytes and large proteins are released into the bloodstream that can cause irregular heart rhythms and seizures, and damage the kidneys.” From 2008-2016, 26 cases of rhabdo were reported in wildland firefighters. University of Montana researchers Dr. Chuck Dumke and Dr. Brent Ruby, along with moderator Charlie Palmer, discuss rhabdo, why is the wildland firefighter at risk, and ways to reduce the risks.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider. 

In this debut podcast of “On the Line”, moderator Charlie Palmer, along with University of Montana professors Dr. Chuck Dumke and Dr. Brent Ruby discuss heat related illnesses/injuries (HRI’s) for wildland firefighters. HRI’s fall along a continuum of severity, with heat cramps being the mildest form, through heat exhaustion, and lastly heat stroke, the most severe, life-threatening type of HRI. What can the science tell us about HRI, and why firefighters are at risk for heat related illnesses, along with applied strategies on how to reduce the risk of HRI’s are discussed.   This podcast was made possible in part through support from the U. S. Forest Service and the University of Montana. The University of Montana is an equal opportunity provider.