Distance To Empty

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kevin and Peter break down the 2026 Mammoth 200 course, just days before race weekend. Kevin ran the race last year and shares his memories of each section, while Peter, who hasn't run it, serves as emotional support co-host. They cover what's changed for 2026 and go through the course section by section, with difficulty ratings, crew tips, and where things get tough.What's new in 2026Start time is 9 AM, an hour later than last year, and the race is a week later in the calendarThe course is now billed at 218 miles (up from 214), and the cutoff has been extended to 109 hoursGU Energy Labs replaces Never Second as the nutrition sponsor, and all aid stations are cuplessDuck Pass (mile 17) is now water onlyThe first crew-accessible stop is now CRC at mile 24, about 8 miles sooner than last year's Sherwin CreekThe longest gap between aid stations is now 15.4 miles (CRC to Convict Lake)Crowley Lake has moved to the ball fieldGreen Church is now Watterson SummitLee Vining has moved to Gus Hess Community Park, with an outdoor sleep stationRunners now pass under Highway 395 at the Rush Creek Overpass instead of crossing with a crossing guardWalker Lake is now a full aid stationThere's a new water drop at the bottom of the Parker Bench descentJune Lake Junction replaces Obsidian Dome, and Upper Deadman (Glass Creek) replaces Inyo CratersThe indoor Main Lodge aid station (mile 207) replaces Minaret Vista, followed by a steeper, shorter climb to the summitThe course by the numbers218 miles, roughly 31,000 feet of gain and lossHigh point of 11,053 feet, with an average elevation around 8,000 feetA loop around a caldera roughly 760,000 years oldSection-by-section highlightsVillage to CRC: the Dragon's Back descent is the most technical part of the courseCRC to Crowley Lake: a hot valley-floor gravel road, then the Convict Lake loop at sunsetCrowley Lake to Watterson Summit: sandy, punchy double track and the Lion's Den tunnelWatterson to Sawmill to Taylor Canyon: some of the hardest miles on the course, with pumice, exposure, and a non-crew aid stationTaylor Canyon to Crater Mountain: fast, runnable double track through Jeffrey pine forestCrater Mountain to Lee Vining: moonscape views, a long descent, and one easy-to-miss turnLee Vining to Upper Deadman: Parker Bench, an overgrown descent, and a steep climb out of June LakeThe final push: Main Lodge, the summit, and a 3,000-foot descent to the villageKevin and Peter also share crew logistics, including a reminder to double-check driving directions to Watterson Summit and Crooked Meadows, since Google Maps often gets them wrong. They wrap up with advice for the weekend: be ready for anything the Sierra weather throws at you, and keep troubleshooting.Important: Always verify details against the current official race and course manual, since changes often happen after recording.Also mentionedThe Canal Corridor Hundred on October 10, where Kevin and Peter are runningThe free Oregon Trail-style Mammoth video game (link in show notes)The Meet the Mammoth series and last year's course preview with HillarySponsorsJanji: Order, choose "podcast" then "Distance to Empty" on the post-purchase survey, and send us a screenshot for free Distance to Empty swag.Mount to Coast: Use code DISTANCE for 10% off.Support the show: Check out our Patreon for coaching options (first link in the show notes).

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Amber Weibel: Second Place, and Back for MoreAmber ran her first official 200-mile race last year at Mammoth and finished in 55 hours and 40 minutes, second place female. She holds fastest known times on both the Tahoe Rim Trail and the John Muir Trail. And with one week to go until the 2026 race, she's back.Amber Weibel joins us to talk about picking Mammoth because it let her kids finish out their school week before driving down to crew — a genuinely practical reason that says a lot about where she is in her life right now. She describes what a race feels like after years of unsupported FKTs, where nobody is waiting at the next aid station and the energy bump of seeing family simply doesn't exist. Mammoth, she says, was strangely hard, and her husband had never seen her in a low quite like the one she hit on night two.We get into the question that's been nagging at us since we researched this episode: she's run the Tahoe Rim Trail both supported and unsupported, and the crewed version was only 22 minutes faster. Her answer is about what a level playing field actually looks like, and why she'd rather be in the wilderness on her own.She also explains the lie she told herself all the way around the Mammoth course last year, her path from cyclist to Ultraman world champion to trail running, why she'll happily spend four minutes changing shoes to avoid blisters, and her Mammoth 200 video game result — which she'll admit came after a first attempt she describes as embarrassingly slow.In this episode:Picking a race that fits around an 8- and 9-year-old's school weekUnsupported FKTs versus a supported 200, and what changesTwenty-two minutes: what a crew is actually forThe lie she kept telling herself at Mammoth last yearFour pairs of shoes, zero blistersA 105-hour first attempt at the video game, and a much better secondHer non-placement goal: showing her kids what working through hard things looks likeA weather prediction from someone who got caught in lightning on the second summitMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Gabe Joyes: 200-Mile Curious, Properly IntimidatedToday's guest has raced almost everything this sport has to offer. Gabe Joyes has been top 10 at Hardrock, runner-up at HURT 100 this past January, and finished the Dragon's Back Race, the 240-mile stage race across Wales. He's a coach at Uphill Athlete and a race director himself. What he's never done is a continuous, single-push 200 — until this October.Gabe joins us to explain why he's been "200-mile curious" for years but properly intimidated, and why the Mammoth course was the one that finally got him to sign up. He also has a compelling theory about what these races actually are: not eating competitions, but problem-solving competitions, where the plan holds for some unknown number of hours and everything after that is jazz.We also get into something few runners have had to reckon with. A few years ago Gabe fell on his trekking pole while running downhill fast, nearly bled to death on the trail, and was helicoptered to a hospital. He talks openly about how long it took to move past that, why he still uses poles, and the one rule he's never broken since: he does not run downhill with them out. Ever.Plus: sleep strategy after a 47-hour unsupported Wind River High Route push that went sideways past hour 40, a refreshingly honest answer about having six shoes still in contention a month out, and the single best homework excuse of the series — Gabe outsourced his Mammoth 200 video game playthrough to his 11- and 14-year-old kids, who ran five or six attempts, posted times between 88 and 96 hours, and logged exactly one DNF.In this episode:Why Mammoth was the course worth breaking the 200 seal forPlans, chaos, and treating a race as a problem-solving competitionThe trekking pole accident, and how he uses poles nowCaffeine, hallucinations, and what happens past hour 40Six shoes, one month out, zero decisions madeHomework delegated to the kids (a 100% honest disclosure)His non-placement goal: making sure his crew has a good timeA prediction about the stories that'll come out of race weekendMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Jake Jackson: Round TwoToday's guest is no stranger to this distance. Jake Jackson finished the inaugural Mammoth 200 last September, has run Cocodona more than once, and is a husband, a father of three, and a UPS driver — who is, for the record, recording this episode from his truck on his lunch break.Jake joins us to talk about what it's like standing on that start line the second time, knowing exactly what the course is going to do to you. He also had a front-row seat to one of Kevin's worst falls in ultrarunning, around mile 11 coming off Mammoth Mountain, and describes watching the whole thing unfold in slow motion.He's honest about last year: stomach issues on night one that wrecked his nutrition plan, running the whole thing solo without crew or pacers, and seeing Mono Lake and Obsidian Dome entirely in the dark. He finished — but says he's yet to complete a 200 and feel like he actually nailed it, rather than dragging a dead body across the line. This year he's going solo again, and the goal is to finish feeling accomplished instead of just finished.Plus, the best homework story of the series: Jake emailed his game result at 3:52pm, then emailed better game results four hours later after knocking it down to sub-70 — and admits it was eating at him at work all afternoon. He also discovered that running as an influencer is faster than running as an elite athlete, mostly because he refused to stop for photos.In this episode:Knowing too much versus knowing nothing on a start lineKevin's slow-motion fall on the Dragon's Back descentNight one stomach problems and a solo race in the darkWhy he's never finished a 200 feeling like he got it rightA training block he's honest about, and why that might be a good signThree game attempts, two emails, and a sub-70 finishH1s last year, M1s this yearA prediction squarely aimed at aid station foodMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Elliot Chisholm: 18 Years Old, Two Cocodonas, and a First 200 AheadToday's guest has been on this podcast before. So has his whole family. Elliot Chisholm hiked the Appalachian Trail, the Pacific Crest Trail, and the Continental Divide Trail with his mom and three brothers — the full Triple Crown — before most people his age have a driver's license. He's 18, and as far as we can tell, the youngest entrant in this year's Mammoth 200. He's also still looking for his first 200-mile finish.Elliot joins us to talk about how the family stumbled into this sport in 2023, watching Cocodona from afar with a friend and realizing that a race combining running and fast hiking was exactly what they'd already been doing across the country.He's honest about both Cocodona attempts: going into 2025 sick at sixteen, throwing up everything he ate, and dropping somewhere past Crown King. Then coming back in 2026, getting his sodium badly wrong, developing rhabdo, and having his body shut down at mile 150 even as his mind wanted to keep going. Forty-something miles to a hundred and fifty in a single year — and a lot learned about nutrition and problem-solving along the way.Mammoth is different: he's blazing the trail for his family this time, nobody's run it before him. He talks about training for runnable terrain instead of the jagged White Mountains he trains on in New Hampshire, heading to altitude from 400 feet of elevation, and why he plans to start the race in road shoes.Plus: his virtual Mammoth 200 finish of 73 hours currently sits third on our leaderboard, his brother Asher helped him make decisions along the way, and he's pre-committed to the Mammoth Basketball League.In this episode:The Triple Crown, and finding ultrarunning by accidentTwo Cocodona DNFs, a stomach bug and a case of rhabdoWhy Mammoth, and blazing a trail ahead of his family for onceTraining for runnable terrain in the White MountainsSea-level kid heading to altitudeThird place on the game leaderboardA prediction: questioning every decision that led him to the start line — and looking forward to itMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Jill Dennes: Thirteen Hundreds, and Now the Next ThingToday's guest is a personal trainer and ultrarunning coach out of Nashville who has quietly built one of the more impressive résumés on the Eastern trail circuit — a runner-up overall finish at the Black Hills 100, a start at UTMB last year, and wins and podiums up and down the East. She's run roughly thirteen hundred-milers. She has never gone 200 miles in a single push. That changes this October.Jill Dennes joins us to talk about why, after that many hundreds, the 200 felt like the only thing left to try — and the refreshingly honest reason she picked Mammoth: it had the shortest waitlist, so she got in first. (Naturally, she then got off almost every other waitlist she was on.)We get into what UTMB taught her, including a race that started in light rain and turned into a full blizzard, and why a Pennsylvania upbringing on "Rocksylvania" trails still didn't prepare her for Chamonix. She also talks about practicing what she preaches as a coach: consistency, strength training three to four days a week, and the simple rule of getting the race on the calendar so the training actually happens.For a first 200, her approach is proudly loose. She barely studies the course, doesn't have a sleep plan, has never really hallucinated, and is heading from Nashville's roughly 500 feet of elevation to the Sierra. She's winging it on purpose — and explains why expectations can do more harm than good.Plus: a former high school point guard enters the Mammoth Basketball League, asks whether made shots come with time bonuses, and reveals a sweet tooth that may be the most dangerous thing in her crew bag.In this episode:Thirteen hundreds, and why the 200 was the natural next stepPicking Mammoth for the shortest waitlistUTMB, a mid-race blizzard, and preparing for anythingCoaching consistency, strength work, and getting it on the calendarNo sleep plan, no hallucinations yet, and a sea-level runner heading to altitudeHomework not done, and a point guard ready for the MBLFinish-line firsts: pizza, a burger, sour candy, and a showerHer non-placement goal: keeping her gut happy for 200 milesMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Yassine Diboun: Twenty Years In, One Day at a TimeToday's guest represented the United States at the 2015 IAU Trail World Championships, where his team came home with silver. He's finished Western States multiple times, podiumed at HURT 100, and just completed his 20th hundred-miler at Bighorn this past June. He's also built one of the most respected trail communities in the country through Wy'east Wolfpack in Portland — and he's more than twenty years into recovery from addiction.Yassine Diboun joins us to talk about why, two decades into this sport, Mammoth is the thing that finally gave him butterflies again. He tells the full story behind a moment at Hardrock in 2023: sprained ankle, deep in a funk on a hot dirt road, when a runner pulled alongside to say he'd heard Yassine talk about his drinking on a podcast and had just hit five years sober. (The runner then dropped him. Yassine passed him back at mile 88.)We get into the parallels between recovery and ultrarunning — one day at a time, one aid station at a time — plus the origins of Wy'east Wolfpack, and Run TRG, the free running program he built with Portland's Alano Club for people in or seeking recovery. He also describes Move Through Darkness, the December sunset-to-sunrise run he started after a member of the community took his own life, and the year it poured for fifteen straight hours.Mammoth will be his first 200-mile race, though not his first multi-day effort — he ran the entire Oregon section of the PCT, roughly 450 miles, about a decade ago. Sleep is the thing he genuinely doesn't know about yet, to the point that he's had an anxiety dream about negotiating a nap with his own crew.Plus: Yassine took our Mingus basketball idea and ran his own version at an aid station in Oregon, where it was such a hit his race directors made it a permanent fixture. He's one of the few guests who arrives already knowing what he's in for — and he's calling his shot for a three-pointer at Mammoth.In this episode:Why a 200 now, after 20 hundred-milersThe runner at Hardrock, and why he stopped keeping his recovery privateWy'east Wolfpack, Run TRG, and Move Through Darkness450 miles on the Oregon PCT and what it did and didn't teach him about sleepA dream about convincing his crew to let him sleepBasketball at aid stations, and the Mingus idea going nationalA prediction: good weather, sub-60, and a three-pointerMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Cole Crosby: From Pacer to RacerToday's guest holds the course record for the Vermont 100K and the fastest known time on the 230-mile Bay Circuit Trail around Boston. He's run over 224 miles in 48 hours at Across the Years. And this past July, he became the first Rhode Islander ever to finish Badwater 135 — with Kevin somewhere out on that same course behind him.Last October, Cole was at Mammoth 200 but not racing it. He was keeping Kevin company late in the race, pacing him through a stretch of not sleeping at all. This year he's on the other side of it.Cole joins us to talk about what he took from watching a race fall apart in real time, the strange work of transitioning from Badwater's hyper-specific pavement training back into trail legs, and why running punchy, rocky, endlessly up-and-down terrain in Rhode Island may be better Mammoth prep than it sounds.We also get one of the best video game stories of the series so far: Cole was on pace for a mid-50-hour virtual finish — a time Kevin still hasn't managed — when a pop-up appeared near the second-to-last aid station. He scrolled, tapped without reading, and was immediately disqualified for accepting aid outside an aid station. His wife Ashley, meanwhile, finished in the low 60s on her very first try, which Cole attributes to thirteen years of crewing him.Plus: the MBA's expansion structure gets formalized (Mingus is the league, Mammoth gets the MBL), Cole reveals a free-throw percentage in the high 80s, and we float a future episode on the psychology of fun in ultrarunning.In this episode:Pacing at Mammoth last year and what it taught him about racing itPost-Badwater recovery and getting trail legs backRhode Island training terrain and why it maps well to MammothThe DNF heard round the world: reading the fine print in a video gameJerseys, free throws, and the birth of the Mammoth Basketball LeagueA course record prediction, and why tactics may matter more than early speedMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Ethan Herrera: Round Two on a Course That Humbled HimToday's guest was one of roughly ninety people who finished the inaugural Mammoth 200 back in September 2025 — before any of us knew what this course actually demanded. He's kept racing well since, including a strong second-place finish at the Siskiyou Out and Back 100 this past July. And now he's back for round two.Ethan Herrera joins us to talk honestly about a race that didn't go how he wanted: a rolled ankle early, asthma issues he fell behind on, hallucinations worse than he'd ever had, and the feeling of just getting worse and worse as the miles went on. He calls it "a special kind of bad" — and then explains why he took it as a lesson from the mountains rather than a failure, and what he's doing differently this year.We also get into the descent off Mammoth Mountain that blew up his legs in the first ten miles, why Obsidian Dome's grapefruit-sized rocks make for such a strange contrast with the course's buttery singletrack, his advice for first-timers (the race doesn't really start until the second half), and a genuinely great moment at mile 130 when a massive herd of sheep — and one very watchful sheepdog — stopped him in his tracks and reset his whole race.Plus: Ethan's background at the Speed Project, his path from climbing the Eastern Sierra to running through it, his work with Roark, and a confident promise to boldly miss a three-pointer if we put a hoop in front of him.In this episode:What an inaugural race teaches you that nobody can tell you in advance"A special kind of bad" — asthma, hallucinations, and losing control of a raceLooking for the life jackets in the pain caveThe sheep, the sheepdog, and a mile-130 gratitude resetAdvice for anyone running Mammoth for the first time this yearHomework not done (he's not the first), and late submissions acceptedA sub-60 goal, and Kevin offering up his splitsMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Devon Yanko: Twenty Years In, and Her First 200Today's guest has been racing at the front of this sport for the better part of two decades. She's run Western States multiple times, kept winning races through a lupus diagnosis, moved up to altitude outside Salida, Colorado, and won the Tarawera Ultra in New Zealand outright this year. She has never run an official 200-mile race. That changes this October.Devon Yanko joins us to explain how crewing Heather Jackson at Cocodona led directly to her pulling over on the side of the road an hour outside Flagstaff to email Tim Tollefson and sign up for Mammoth — right after deciding she'd never do anything like it. She talks about what she learned watching Heather's race up close, why adaptability beats a perfect plan, and how tearing a tendon at mile six of Scout Mountain 100 turned into the best possible rehearsal for a 200.We also get into sleep — she's a self-described terrible sleeper who's never taken a dirt nap and has never hallucinated — plus a 2016 Western States chair, an hour lost, and the lesson she's been practicing for ten years since.And then there's basketball. Devon owns one of the coveted MBA jerseys from Mingus, and it turns out there's a very good reason for that: she played Division I basketball at Fresno State, and won her state's three-point shooting contest as a high school senior, beating a future WNBA player. We're comfortable calling her the best basketball player in ultrarunning.In this episode:The roadside email that got her into MammothCrewing Heather Jackson at Cocodona, and what it taught her about problem-solvingRunning Tarawera through knee-deep mud, trench foot, and a dead watchSleep strategy from someone who genuinely can't sleepPlaying the Mammoth 200 video game as an Oregon Trail veteranA D1 basketball résumé and a pre-committed yes to the MBAFinish-line firsts, including a hug for Tim that may or may not be a strangleMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California — 214 miles around a 760,000-year-old caldera, bookended by two summits of Mammoth Mountain. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Brian Reynolds' Four-Year Journey at Leadville to Becoming the First Double Amputee to Finish a 100-Mile RaceOn this episode of Distance to Empty, Kevin sits down with Brian, who just days earlier became the first below-the-knee double amputee to finish a 100-mile trail race — completing the legendary Leadville Trail 100 in 28 hours and 55 minutes.Brian takes us inside four years and four attempts at Leadville, from a first-year DNF where he had "absolutely zero idea" what he was doing, to prosthetic tread failures that cost him the race in years two and three, to finally crossing the finish line on Sixth Street surrounded by a 19-person crew. Along the way, he breaks down the engineering behind his running blades vs. hiking legs, why aid-station transitions can take eight-plus minutes of stripping down, drying off, and re-taping, and how he trains over 20 hours of weekly cardio without the mileage most ultrarunners rely on.We also get into the mental side of the sport: hiding his legs under pants until his mid-twenties, the moment he stopped caring what people thought and started pushing his own limits, and why — despite training in the dark ages before adaptive-sports role models existed — he now gets to be the person others reach out to for answers.Topics covered:The difference between running blades, walking legs, and hiking legs — and why weight and heel flexion matter on a course like Hope PassThree straight years of prosthetic equipment failures and how he engineered his way past themWhy he skipped every shorter distance and went straight to a 100-milerThe 38%-higher energy cost of running as a double amputee, and how he fuels for itHis 19-person Leadville crew and the community that kept bringing him backWhat's next: rim-to-rim-to-rim, Comrades, and a very unofficial 99% "no" to 200-milers

Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Lindsey Dwyer: From the Crew Car to the Start LineToday's guest is a middle school PE teacher who finished 5th at Cocodona 250 this year in 72 hours, cutting seven hours off her own time from the year before. She's got a UTMB top-20 and a Rio del Lago course record on her résumé. And last October, she spent the inaugural Mammoth 200 crewing and pacing her husband Matt — a job she describes as running on about five hours of sleep across the entire race.Lindsey Dwyer joins us to talk about why it took roughly no time at all to decide she wanted to run it herself, what she's cleaning up from Cocodona (including a fueling problem most ultrarunners would love to have — she thinks she was eating too much), and the altitude tent she just rented as a sea-level runner heading to 8,000+ feet.We also get into the Mammoth 200 video game, where her household holds a record we still can't fully explain: Matt's 43-hour virtual finish is faster than anyone else who's played, and — as Kevin points out — faster than the game was designed to allow. Lindsey ran 82. There's a family strategy session pending.Plus: a genuinely great story about pacing Matt through last year's storm on the second summit, lightning overhead, and discovering that abandoning your runner mid-mountain is an extremely effective pacing technique.In this episode:Deciding to race Mammoth roughly instantly after crewing itEating too much at Cocodona, and dialing in fueling with lab testingRenting an altitude tent as a sea-level runner (Peter has thoughts)Why a runnable course is exactly what she wantsMatt's 43-hour virtual time, and a swag bounty for anyone who can beat itA pass on the weather question, and a lightning story that more than makes up for itFinish-line firsts: chocolate pudding, a hot bath, and a growing shopping list for MattMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California — 214 miles around a 760,000-year-old caldera, bookended by two summits of Mammoth Mountain. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Callie Vinson: Back for Round Two, and a Film Crew Along the WayOur very first recording for this series, and it's with someone who's been here before: last September, Callie Vinson spent her birthday finishing the inaugural Mammoth 200 in just over 101 hours — right through a snowstorm that got her rerouted off the second summit and held at an aid station for six hours during a lightning delay. This October, she's back for round two.Callie talks about getting talked into a second lap by race director Tim, why Mammoth's relatively "approachable" terrain works for a self-described clumsy, height-fearing trail runner, and a genuine bit of news: she and Tim are working on a documentary film, much of which will be shot during this year's race in Mammoth Lakes. We also get into her strategy for round two — same pacing plan, same reliance on Gu Roctane and aid-station ramen, same "walk every step" approach that's carried her through Cocodona, Moab, and her own Phoenix FKT — and a stacked crew lineup including Scott, Jen, Carol, Abby, and Cortes.And we dig into her actual Mammoth 200 video game card: 84 hours 25 minutes, Local Legend class, ten potatoes, zero hallucinations — a result she now admits was way too conservative, and a mistake she's already planning to fix on a second playthrough.In this episode:The snowstorm, the six-hour lightning hold, and getting rerouted off the second summitWhy Mammoth is the rare mountain 200 that works for someone afraid of heightsA documentary film in the works, shooting live during this year's raceHer virtual Mammoth 200 run — and why she's replaying it less conservativelyA prediction for race week: more rain, cooler temps, hopefully no lightningA pre-committed yes to the Mammoth Basketball Association, if the hoop shows upMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California — 214 miles around a 760,000-year-old caldera, bookended by two summits of Mammoth Mountain. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Kyla Maher: The Red Puffy ReturnsToday's guest showed up on our Flagstaff Bound series having never run anything longer than 100 miles, wrote "please help" on her scheduling form, and finished Cocodona 250 anyway — all while working as athlete manager at Janji. She's since made the jump to Satisfy, and according to the card she sent us, she's already finished the Mammoth 200 — virtually, at least.Kyla Maher joins us for round two of 200-mile racing, and this episode has everything: peer pressure as a training plan (courtesy of race director Tim), a real conversation about what nothing can prepare you for the first time you go past 100 miles, and the full, unfiltered story behind the bright red rented puffy jacket that followed her through increasingly rough stages of Cocodona 250 — including the reveal of exactly which subscription clothing service is getting a very pointed callout in this episode.We also get into her jump from Janji to Satisfy, an honest answer about whether finishing a 250-mile race ever actually satisfies a "dopamine deprived" personality, and her official Mammoth 200 video game card — 214.6 miles in 89 hours 28 minutes, Seasoned Mid-Packer, nine acorns collected — plus a request for an entirely new game category that better reflects her Cocodona finish.In this episode:The jacket: rented again, or new colorway this time?What real pain threshold change actually feels like the first time you go past 100 milesJanji to Satisfy — what's changed, what hasn'tHer Mammoth 200 video game card, and a proposed new class categoryA crew status update (spoiler: she doesn't have one yet)Her prediction for race week weather — and it directly contradicts a previous guest'sMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California — 214 miles around a 760,000-year-old caldera, bookended by two summits of Mammoth Mountain. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠ Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Sarah Ostaszewski: From Crewing the Storm to Racing It HerselfToday's guest has won Cocodona 250, won Moab 240, and won Ouray 100 twice. This year, after a decade in the Western States lottery, she finally toed the line and came home with a sub-24-hour silver buckle. She's one of the most accomplished names in the sport — and this October, she's racing a course she's never touched.Sarah Ostaszewski wasn't a stranger to the Mammoth 200 before signing up herself — she crewed and paced her friend Michael Robertson through the inaugural race last year, including a stretch that got hit by a full-blown storm with two separate lightning holds on the mountain. She talks about what that day taught her about the course, why she signed up to actually race it herself this time, and how she thinks about competing in an era where course records keep getting rewritten within a year or two of anyone setting them.We also get into her post–Western States headspace, what she tells her own coached athletes before their first 200-mile race, and — a series first — a guest who didn't do her homework. Sarah's virtual Mammoth 200 game time is still pending, and we'll update the show notes once she submits it late.In this episode:Crewing a storm-hit inaugural Mammoth 200 in 2025, and what made her want to race it herselfCompeting in a sport where the record books keep moving under everyone's feetFinally getting off the Western States waitlist after ten years, and the "chapter closing" feeling that came with itAdvice she gives her own athletes before their first 200 — and whether she follows it herselfA homework assignment gone late, and a tentative yes to the Mammoth Basketball AssociationHer prediction for race week: expect another stormMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California — 214 miles around a 760,000-year-old caldera. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

Play The Mammoth 200 Video Game!Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meet the Mammoths — Lexi Corcione: From Spartan Obstacles to 214 MilesBefore she ever considered herself a trail runner, today's guest ran more than 30 Spartan Races. Lexi Corcione is a strength and performance coach based in Scottsdale, Arizona, and this October she's stepping up to her first-ever race over 200 miles at the Mammoth 200 — just months after finishing the notoriously tough Sedona Canyons 125.In this episode, Lexi talks about the moment obstacle racing stopped being enough, what it's actually like living in a house with two professional endurance coaches (her husband Joe coaches ultrarunners for a living), and why she thinks strength training — not just mileage — is the most overlooked piece of long-distance success. She also walks us through her playthrough of the official Mammoth 200 video game, including an Easter egg involving sheep dogs, gels, and a blister named Gary.We close things out with our usual final stretch: the loop question, her finish-line order (hint: a cheeseburger is involved), her non-placement goal for the race, and a prediction for race week weather that involves snow.In this episode:From 30+ Spartan Races to her first-ever 200-mile raceMarried to her running coach — how that actually works day to dayWhy stabilizer strength matters more than the "sexy" liftsHer Mammoth 200 video game playthrough (and the hidden Easter eggs)A tease of a possible basketball activation coming to Mammoth this yearHer prediction for race week: sun, snow, or something in betweenMammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California — Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jeff Garmire and Allison Powell join Kevin on the day Rewritten premieres — the film Allison directed about Jeff's Appalachian Trail FKT, out now on the Free Outside YouTube channel.Please note: this episode includes candid discussion of depression and suicidal ideation. Resources are listed at the bottom of these notes and at the top of the episode.We start where the film starts: Denver, a corporate job, twelve-hour days, and the drive home where Jeff realized that if the worst option was on the table, then literally every other option was too. That realization became the 2016 calendar year Triple Crown, a dehydrator running before sunrise, a daily blog, and about $15,000 raised for suicide prevention — as much a way to open a conversation he didn't know how to start as it was a fundraiser.Then we get into the AT: fifty miles and roughly eleven thousand feet of gain a day for forty-five days, and the parade of things that went sideways. Two left shoes in a resupply box (meaning two right shoes were sitting somewhere else). A broken pole in Shenandoah. A missing box. InReach messages so garbled Allison couldn't tell if Jeff was typing fast or coming apart. And the text, two hundred miles from the finish, asking whether he should hike twenty miles backward to retrieve every piece of electronics he owned.Allison gives the crew-from-2,000-miles-away perspective that rarely makes it into these stories — staring at a dot, sleeping with the ringer on, waking at 4am Mountain in case something had gone wrong at 6am Eastern, and the night she ended up on her knees on an Airbnb staircase during her cousin's wedding weekend. Jeff talks about the six or seven months of mental work that let him rewrite his A goal mid-effort without it becoming soft quitting, why a "why" can be simple, and what five years of therapy has done for him.Also in here: how the film came together, Allison's pitch for more producers in adventure filmmaking, her Moab 240 and a hard-won love of red rocks, where the title came from (and Jeff's extensive brainstorming before agreeing she was right), and a stop-the-episode moment near the end when Allison catches us leaving out the small matter of the ring Jeff carried in his pack for the entire trail.Watch Rewritten on the Free Outside YouTube channel.Learn more about the Trevor Project or donate: https://www.thetrevorproject.orgMental health resourcesThe Trevor Project: 1-866-488-7386, or text START to 678-678988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (US): call or text 988

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Part of our miniseries on The Cutoff, the new Aravaipa/Dylan Harris film. Kevin and Peter sit down with Robby Chaney, who describes himself as a runner, hiker, and death marcher, and who has spent more time chasing cutoffs than almost anyone in the sport.Robby's first trail race was a 40K in 2018 that went so badly he wrote off trail running entirely. New shoes he'd never worn, a vest he'd never used, and temperatures over 100 degrees. Then a volunteer request for a race called Cocodona 250 landed in his inbox, and the number stuck in his head. Six years later he has four 200-mile finishes, a starring role in a film about the very thing he's spent his career outrunning, and a 2026 Grand Slam on the calendar.We get into what the back of the pack actually looks like from the inside: 100-plus hour races, aid stations where you turn around and walk straight back out, and the compounding physical, mental, and emotional cost of days on course. Robby also walks us through his 2025 Cocodona, where he made it to roughly mile 220 before his lungs quit on him in Walnut Canyon. Pulse ox in the low 80s, an IV, and a search and rescue extraction. (Peter, who also got to mile 220 and didn't finish, offers a competing explanation for his own DNF: he got tired.)The conversation closes somewhere we didn't expect. In 2002, Robby was stabbed by a stranger and left bleeding on the street. He woke up in the ICU and was told he'd probably never walk again. He used a cane for years. He turned 50 last month and is signed up for close to a thousand miles of racing.In this episode:(01:15) Aspirational ultrarunner: what "death march" actually means(02:26) What people get wrong about the back of the pack(05:41) From a miserable 40K to signing up for a 250(08:25) Coldwater Rumble 2024 and learning what a cutoff is mid-race(11:04) Respecting the cutoff without fearing it(13:37) DNFs as data points, and the trekking poles that cost him Mogollon Monster(16:27) Getting the email from Dylan and Emily, mid-race, on a ridgeline(19:40) What happened in Walnut Canyon(23:37) 2002, the ICU, and the twenty-year road backThe Cutoff is out from Aravaipa. Follow Robby's 2026 season with us.

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠In this special edition of Distance to Empty, Kevin and Peter sit down with Jen Novobilski, one of the runners featured in The Cutoff, the new film from Dylan Harris and Aravaipa Running.Jen's path to a 250-mile buckle started on a rainy day in Alaska in 2007, when she and a friend bailed on a hike and signed up for a half marathon instead — one minute running, one minute walking. Marathons turned into a 50-states goal, the pandemic turned that into her first 50-miler, and the company she kept did the rest.She talks about finding out mid-race that she'd be in a film (filmmaker Bradford caught her hugging her crew at the start and tracked her down at Crown King), and about only learning last week — from our episode with Jamil and Dylan — that the movie was really about the cutoff all along. Her first reaction was ego. Her second was admiration for how the crew handled it.We get into her 2025 Cocodona 250: roughly five hours of sleep across the whole race, no real dirt nap until past mile 200, hallucinations, a full head-to-toe clothing change in the downpour before Fain Ranch, and snow on Mingus that felt like home. (She did not bring rain pants. Who brings rain pants to the desert?)Jen also breaks down the Skydive Ultra — where the skydive itself counts against your cutoff — and previews her next big swing: the Iditarod Trail Invitational 150, starting days after this recording, with a kid's sled her nieces and nephew decorated and her grandmother sewed the zipper into.At 51, with a regular job and a regular life, her message is simple: if she can do it, so can a lot of other people.In this episode:Accidental ultrarunner: from mountaineering to a rainy-day half marathonAlaska running, sled pulling, and the Susitna 100The Skydive Ultra 100 — bacon, hallucinations, and losing two hours to the jumpGetting recruited into The Cutoff at mile 37The "observer effect" of running with a camera on youSleep deprivation, weather, and why the 2025 Cocodona was the hardest year yetWhy crew and pacers made the finish possibleEscalation, "normalizing Norman" friends, and what's actually being chasedWhat Jen hopes people take away from the film about the back of the pack

Learn about out Patreon Offers!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bigfoot 200 — 2026 Course PreviewBigfoot is back. After two years of fire reroutes and closures, the 2026 course returns to its classic form — Klickitat is back in the rotation, and Forest Route 25 has finally reopened, cutting the drive from Randle to the start line from nearly four hours to under two.Jameson joins Kevin and Peter fresh off course marking to break down all 200.1 miles, section by section: where the water actually is this year (there's less of it), which climbs hurt more than the profile suggests, and what the blowdowns look like on the back half.In this episode:The 2026 changes — Coldwater Lake crew logistics, Twin Sisters losing crew access, and the Owens Creek aid station moving 1.5 miles down the roadWhy the silty water off Mount St. Helens will end your filter's raceQuartz Creek: 7,000 feet of gain, 17 miles, and the loneliest place on the courseKlickitat to Twin Sisters, fresh windfall, and the phenomenon known as "Klick-a-face"Crewing with one vehicle pass, no cell service, and a lot of drivingRiver crossings, waist lamps, huckleberries, and why Bigfoot is the best place to dirt napRace starts Friday, August 14 at noon. Good luck out there — and remember to check official race comms, since things can still change.

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Kevin and Peter sit down with Selene Mallone, a Canadian firefighter who jumped from 100-milers to the 200+ mile distance and hasn't lost since. In under a year, she won the Divide 200 in her first attempt at the distance, took the Arizona Monster 300 in brutal desert heat, and then won the Ribbon 200 outright on Ontario's Bruce Trail. Selene shares how she balances training around 24-hour fire shifts, her DIY heat prep for the Monster (sauna suit on the StairMaster, a sauna sleeping bag, "practicing dirt naps"), why two-to-five minute trail naps beat fighting sleep deprivation, and running out of water alongside Sam Carroll in a 22-mile exposed desert section. Plus: the growing Canadian 200-mile scene, the Sioux 200 coming in September, and why Selene thinks the only way to know if you can do the distance is to try.

Kevin and Peter break down the wildest week of the year: Cocodona 250, 2026 edition. Peter kicks things off by running the Bradshaw Brute (recap episode coming soon), then joins Kevin at Mingus Mountain for the inaugural season of the MBA — the Mingus Basketball Association — where nearly every runner, from Rachel Entrekin's course-record-setting first bucket to Courtney Dauwalter's extended court time, stopped at mile 107 to shoot their shot. Spoiler: 107 miles of running does terrible things to your jumper.The week also included an overnight shift at Schnebly Hill Aid Station (nonstop chili mac and at least three saved races), snack reviews delivered mid-race, surprise phone calls to runners live on the Mountain Outpost stream, "Emotions on Elden" interviews from the final climb, and a down-to-the-second cutoff drama at Mingus.Stick around to the end for the full 50 minutes of raw MBA court audio — trash talk, airballs, celebrity cameos and all. If you can name every voice you hear, we might just send you a hat.Huge thanks to our sponsors Janji and Mount to Coast for making the MBA possible. Support them (and us): use code DISTANCE at Mount to Coast or select Distance to Empty in Janji's post-purchase survey, screenshot it, and send it to @distancetoemptypod on Instagram or distancetoemptypod@gmail.com for free swag.

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Paul James Johnson is a civil trial attorney from Michigan who didn't run his first marathon until he turned 40. He and didn't discover ultrarunning until he was 60. Nine years later, at 69, he was the oldest finisher at Cocodona 250 this year, posting his fastest time yet on his fifth attempt at the race, and landing on the podium in his age group.In this episode, Paul opens with an apology for missing a commitment during Cocodona (a mid-race "basketball" tradition on Mingus Mountain. Before diving into his running origin story, from a courthouse rec-league basketball team to his first brutal 50-miler in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He talks through what changed in his training and mindset that led to his breakthrough performance this year, including a more structured training block, starting creatine supplementation, and leaning hard on his crew — including his two sons who crew for him at nearly every race.Paul also shares his self-coined "Art of Distraction" technique for getting through the darkest miles of a 200-plus-mile race, his habit of recording detailed audio notes to himself before each race segment, and his refreshingly simple philosophy on aging in the sport: age doesn't disqualify you from anything — the answer is always yes.The conversation wraps with a rapid-fire "Quick Five," covering his highest high (crossing the Cocodona finish line with his full crew), his lowest low (a DNF at the Thailand 500 he's still chasing redemption for), his go-to race fuel, and whether he's found his distance to empty. (He hasn't. He's already signed up for four more races.)

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Lindsey Dwyer: Cleaning Up the Mess at Cocodona 250Middle school PE teacher by day, 250-mile ultrarunner by... well, by 72 hours and 48 minutes straight. Lindsey Dwyer joins the show fresh off a 5th-place finish at Cocodona 2026 — a full seven hours faster than her debut the year before, with nearly four of those hours saved just by spending less time loitering at aid stations.In this conversation, Lindsey breaks down what it actually takes to come back to a race and "clean it up": the rookie mistakes she refused to repeat (no more fun-runs in a dust storm the day before), racing against the sunrise for her B-goal, and why she sets A-goals she only expects to hit half the time. She talks candidly about battling her asthma through smoke-choked air, losing her voice for the entire second half, and gutting out two pacer-less night sections — including a lonely, viewless summit of Mount Elden at mile 230 where her sister's midnight phone calls kept her moving.We also get into her training philosophy (big volume, reluctant strength work, lots of zone two), the growing pains of going from self-coached to working with Coach Leo Perschel, how she squeezes altitude and heat training around a teacher's three personal days a year, her Rio del Lago course record, a top-20 at UTMB, and what's next at the Mammoth 200.Plus: breakfast tacos with HEB tortillas, why the pack is the one piece of gear you can't get wrong, and whether Lindsey has found her distance to empty. (Spoiler: not even close.)

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!The Last Four Standing: Six Years of Cocodona 250Four runners. Six straight years. Roughly 6,000 miles of one of the hardest point-to-point ultras in the country. In this episode, Kevin Goldberg sits down with Andy Glaze, Jeff Garmire, Aaron Fleisher, and Jose Sosa — the only four athletes to finish every single Cocodona 250 since its 2021 debut.What started as a one-off pandemic-era adventure (Aaron even emailed the race directors to say he'd never be back) somehow became an annual ritual none of them saw coming. The guys talk through how the race hooked them, why it never actually gets easier, and the community that keeps pulling them back to the start line each May.There's also a healthy dose of competition and chaos: back-of-the-napkin math on how many hours they've each logged on course (the guesses are scarily accurate), predictions for when the streak finally breaks and who'll be the last one standing, theories on how each man's run will eventually end — from injury to flight delays to one very specific basketball-related exit — and the origin of Andy's parallel 100-mile-week streak that may be even harder to kill than the Cocodona one.Equal parts tribute, roast, and group therapy for people who can't stop signing up. Here's to year seven.

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!The Tahoe 200 Goes All the Way Around Again — 2026 Course Preview with Jameson CollinsFor the first time since 2019, the Tahoe 200 is a true full loop—no out-and-back, no fire detour, just 200+ miles circumnavigating Lake Tahoe. Kevin and Peter sit down with Jameson Collins, Destination Trail's HQ manager and course marking director, who just spent a week hanging dragons and ribbons across the entire course. Fresh off the trail, Jameson walks us through the loop aid station by aid station, with current-as-of-race-week intel on snow, water, blowdown, and everything in between.This year's race is a tale of two courses: a wild, remote, technical first ~100 miles through the Caldor Fire scar and forgotten corners of the El Dorado National Forest, then a return to the smooth, groomed "fairytale" Tahoe Rim Trail experience from Barker Pass home. Jameson breaks down where you'll be post-holing through soft snow (and why microspikes won't save you), which sections feel like bushwhacking dragon-to-dragon, where the jeeps will be crawling up Cadillac Hill, and why Wrights-to-Loon is the single hardest leg out there.Plus: gear and spike strategy, dressing for the brush and burn scars, the three sleep stations (Wrights Lake, Barker Pass, Brockway Summit), where the course dries out and water gets scarce, the brutal final climb under the Heavenly ski lifts, and Jameson's best advice for anyone tempted to quit with hours of cushion still in the bank.Race starts Friday, June 12 at 9 AM. 105-hour cutoff. Heavenly Stagecoach Lodge start/finish. Pacers allowed from Loon Lake (mile 87.6).Guest: Jameson Collins — Destination Trail HQ manager, course marking director, and founder of Huda Trail.

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Laura Rambikur didn't grow up an athlete. Told in middle school she wasn't good at sports, she chose the arts, became a musician, and didn't find running until her mid-thirties. This year, she crossed the finish line at Heritage Square as a Cocodona 250 finisher. 250 miles from Black Canyon City to Flagstaff, completed in 123 hours.In this episode, Laura sits down with Kevin and Peter (Kevin also happens to be her coach) to unpack the journey from a four-year dream sparked on a couch watching the livestream to the start line of her first 200-plus-mile race. With a light ultra resume and a hard DNF at High Lonesome behind her, she put together a training block Kevin calls one of the most impressive he's ever seen.But this conversation goes deeper than splits and cutoffs. As a clinical mental health therapist who has spent years working with trauma survivors, Laura brings a rare lens to suffering, resilience, and what it means to keep moving forward when you can no longer trust your own mind. We talk about going off course near Goldwater Lakes, the respiratory struggles that nearly ended her race on the Coconino Plateau, the brutality of the Mount Eldon descent at 5 a.m. on day six, and the family crew — her mom and sister — who carried her to the finish.Along the way: why fear can be an asset instead of something to burn down, the power of accompaniment, cinnamon roll waffles at Jerome, and the case for trekking poles when you can't stop throwing up.Oh, and Laura opens the episode with an AI roast that gets genuinely spicy. You've been warned.Have you found your distance to empty?

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Trish Corbett came to Cocodona 250 in 2026 with unfinished business. After a DNF in 2022 the Flagstaff-based nurse spent four years watching the race from the sidelines before finally lining up again for redemption.She got more than she bargained for.At mile 109, descending Mingus Mountain in the dead of night, Trish fell and dislocated multiple fingers on her left hand — also sustaining an avulsion fracture where bone separated from the joint. Rather than quit, she improvised a splint from a race flag, found KT tape from fellow runners, hiked 15 miles to Jerome, and talked an ER doctor into reducing the dislocations without systemic pain meds so she could return to the course. Four hours later, she was back running — without poles, with a hand swollen to twice its size, still ahead of her husband's finishing time.Before all that chaos unfolded, Trish had already made her mark at the Mingus Basketball Association — Kevin and Peter's mid-race shooting contest — draining two corner threes at 107 miles in, in the dark, wearing her pack, to win the women's division and take home a prize pack including a John G gift card, Ultraspire gear, Bollé sunglasses, and Mount to Coast shoes.In this conversation, Trish talks about nursing as the reason she started running, the emotional weight of returning to a race after a DNF, how her medical background helped her triage herself mid-race, what it felt like to want to quit on the Hangover Trail, why a missing slice of cheese nearly broke her, and what David Goggins' "never volunteer to quit" mantra meant to her in the hardest moments. Plus: her coach Kaleb Stevens' reaction, her husband's very colorful response to a photo of her hand, and what that finish line buckle means now compared to what it would have meant on a clean run.

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Zach Hauer joins Kevin Goldberg fresh off his first-ever 200+ mile race — the Cocodona 250 — where he finished in 69 hours after spending much of the race in podium contention. A former University of Arizona track and cross country runner turned competitive ultrarunner, Zach brings a unique perspective to the 250-mile distance, drawing on experience from UTMB's CCC and golden ticket races that set him apart from much of the field.In this episode, Zach breaks down the full arc of his race: the unexpected mental fog of running in a lead pack, a costly navigation blunder through the Fain Ranch section, a "hero dose" creatine experiment that left him feeling like he was having an out-of-body experience, and a deeply emotional low on the climb to Schnebly Hill that had him questioning everything — followed by one of his strongest sections of the race. He also reflects on sleep strategy (or lack thereof), the difference between giving up and quitting, and what it means to voluntarily choose suffering in a sport where so many face it without a choice.We also get his inside look at how Cody Poskin, Joe McConaughy, and Courtney Dauwalter race these things, a quick breakdown of his training approach and what he'd do differently, and why he'd come back and do it all over again.Plus: basketball at mile 107, OpenFuel's mission to reduce plastic waste in the sport, and the manifesting of future MBA podiums.

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Missy Hendricks is one of the athletes featured in The Cutoff, the new film by Dylan Harris presented by Aravaipa Running — and from the moment a film crew came running toward her on the trail outside Prescott, she wasn't sure she wanted to be found.In this special mini-series episode, Missy opens up about what it meant to be seen — not just as a runner, but as a Mescalero Apache woman, a mother, a wife, and a full-time worker chasing something most people in her life never saw coming. She talks about going from her first half marathon to the starting line of the Cocodona 250, the "ghost in her own home" reality of training while raising a family, and the moment on course when something clicked and she decided to let the world in.Missy also speaks candidly about what the back of the pack actually looks like — the flooded aid stations with no massage tables, the 30-minute sleep windows, the mental fight to keep moving when every part of you wants to stop — and why every finisher, regardless of place, deserves to be celebrated.This one hits different. Don't miss it.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Last year she finished Cocodona 250 in the worst weather the race has seen — two straight days of torrential rain, snow and hail on top of both the Bradshaws and Mingus, shin splints through the final miles into Flagstaff. She dragged herself to that finish line and a week later when registration opened, she signed up again immediately.She's back. Her crew is back. Her dad's RV is back. And this year she's showing up as an athlete rather than a mom with something to prove.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Randi Zuckerberg — returning Cocodona finisher, Tony Award winner, tech executive, author, and mom of three — for a conversation about what crossing that finish line actually changed. Randi talks about watching her sons transform in her wake — one training for Triathlon Nationals, the other running 50-mile weeks at age 11 — and what it means to show up this year with a real training block, a Boston Marathon, a training camp on the Cocodona course, and a custom Mount to Coast shoe with a fire horse painted on it.She also has a strong opinion about Nerds clusters and their potential arsenic content. She's eating them anyway.Her chalkboard message at Mingus is "everything is temporary." The bad moments and the good ones. She'll be riding whatever wave she's on.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!She ran 526 miles in six days on a 443-meter indoor track. She has exceeded 200 miles in a single effort multiple times in backyard ultras and looped formats. She fast-packed the majority of the Cocodona 250 course to prepare. She has never run a traditional point-to-point 200-mile race.That ends in May.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Megan Eckert — Six Days in the Dome champion, backyard ultra specialist, high school track and cross-country coach, and first-time traditional 200-miler — for a conversation about what it actually means to merge two loves: trail running and going very, very far. Megan talks about what she learned fast-packing the course, how she plans to gamify a race that doesn't loop back around every four miles, and why sleep strategy at Cocodona is a whole different animal than anything she's done before. She's not sleeping in a comfortable indoor aid station. She's bringing earplugs, an eye mask, and her backyard instincts.Her students now assume that when she misses school, she's out there racing. They're not wrong. They want to hear all of it when she gets back.Her chalkboard message at Mingus is "don't miss those shots." She meant it about the MBA. She also meant it about the race.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!EPISODE DESCRIPTIONShe won Moab 240 and Tahoe 200. She won Western States, Hardrock, and UTMB — sometimes back to back to back in the same summer. She came to Cocodona 250 last year, led the entire field through 108 miles, and stopped at Mingus Mountain. She ran a 2:38 road marathon in the fall because she wanted to feel like a beginner at something. She is back.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound 2026, Kevin and Peter sit down with Courtney Dauwalter for a conversation about what this distance actually requires from her — patience, adventure, and progress that looks different depending on which part of the roller coaster you're on. Courtney talks about what a full reset after UTMB actually looked like, why rediscovering the road marathon reignited something she didn't know needed reigniting, and how she thinks about racing something this long when every decision you make on day one compounds across day two, night two, and day three.She also asked if there were NBA jerseys at the Mingus Basketball Association. There are. She is extremely ready.Her chalkboard message at Mingus Mountain is a letter to herself: dear Courtney, this is not your finish line. Love Courtney.Her prediction for Cocodona 2026 is that at least 1,500 pickles will be consumed across all race distances. She needs Jamil and the team to count.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!She won Badwater 135 in 2021. In 2023 she ran four 200-plus mile races in five months — Cocodona 250 first, then Tahoe, then Bigfoot two weeks after that, then won Moab 240 to cap the Grand Slam — despite getting blisters within the first few miles of Cocodona and spending much of that year in a level of physical discomfort she describes as the worst of her life. She's coming back for Cocodona in 2026 after a significant knee injury that had doctors telling her she was done with 200s. She found a surgeon who paused and said "but."In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Sally McRae — Yellow Runner, Badwater champion, Grand Slam finisher, author of Choose Strong, and the only guest in this series who described Cocodona 250 as "an eating contest from Phoenix to Flagstaff." Sally talks about what that 2023 Grand Slam actually felt like from the inside, why she's leaning into gratitude and away from pride heading into this year's race, and the thing she tells athletes who are in their darkest moments out there — think about the story you want to tell.Her daughter is a runner at NAU. Sally is hoping she runs her into the finish line.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!EPISODE DESCRIPTIONShe was almost on the U.S. Olympic ice hockey team. She got a scholarship to Princeton. She taught world history. Then she became a professional triathlete, won six Ironman triathlons, set the all-time fastest Ironman by an American woman, finished third at Kona, and retired from triathlon in 2022. Since then she has won Western States golden ticket races, finished seventh at Western States, taken fifth at CCC, and set the course record at the Unbound XL — a 350-mile gravel race.This is her first 200-mile trail race.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Heather Jackson — six-time Ironman champion, professional ultrarunner, and someone who by her own admission goes out way too hard and blows up, and is hoping to not do that at Cocodona. Heather talks about what the transition from triathlon to trail actually looks like from the inside, how her husband manages her sponsors, films her YouTube channel, and sags her training runs on his mountain bike, and why she's genuinely terrified of this race in the best possible way. She's been watching the Cocodona live stream for five years and can't believe she gets to be on it.Her five words are "holy shit I am scared." Her chalkboard message at Mingus is for her dogs Stevie and Frankie. If they're waiting for her, she'll get there faster.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Episode Title: Cocodona 250 Course Preview 2026Kevin and Peter are back with their most-downloaded episode of the year — the Cocodona 250 Course Preview. With a combined ~5 finishes between them, the guys break down everything you need to know before toeing the line in Black Canyon City this May.They cover all the meaningful 2026 course changes first: the new Watson Lake Aid Station (bring $5 cash for parking), the relocated Fain Ranch at Living Waters Church, the loss of crew access at Deer Pass (hello, 50K crew-less stretch), and the big pacer rule flip — you can now bring a pacer through Walnut Canyon, but the final 19 miles over Elden are solo. No pacers. Just you and the mountain.Then it's a section-by-section breakdown of all 253 miles:Start to Crown King — 37 miles, 11K+ feet of gain, and one critical right turn you cannot missCrown King to Whiskey Row — navigating the Bradshaws overnight through Camp Kippa and the Yankee Doodle TrailWhiskey Row to Mingus Mountain — crossing Prescott Valley, the Granite Dells, the Fain Ranch gopher field, and the big Mingus climbMingus to Sedona — the most mentally draining stretch of the race, a junkyard descent out of Jerome, and a Verde River crossingThe Hangover Trail — slick rock, big exposure, 40-minute miles, and somehow the most beautiful part of the courseSchnebly Hill to Walnut Canyon — 51 miles deep in the race on the Coconino Plateau, Muns Park, Kelly Canyon, and the legendary Fort TuthillWalnut Canyon to the Finish — the final solo push up Elden via the Newhart Trail and down the steep descent into Heritage SquareThe guys also share details on the Distance to Empty ShakeOut Run (Sunday May 3rd, 2 PM at Deep Canyon Ranch), the Mingus Basketball Association three-shot challenge (live leaderboard, prizes from Mount to Coast, John G, and Ultraspire), and how to score some DTE swag out on course.Whether you're racing, crewing, pacing, or just dreaming — this is the episode to prep with.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!EPISODE DESCRIPTIONIn 2023 he showed up to Whiskey Row ten hours behind the leaders, told his crew he was still going to win and set the course record, and then did exactly that. In 2025 he herniated a disc and watched Kilian Korth take his Triple Crown records from his couch. He described it as a whirlwind of emotions. He went to therapy, read about the mind-body connection, and concluded his back hurt because he was trying too hard to win. He came back and immediately won the Arizona Monster 300 and set the course record.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Mike McKnight — the Dark McKnight, the King of 200s, the man who is very uncomfortable being called the King of 200s — for one of the most honest conversations in the series. Mike talks about why Cocodona is the one race he hasn't figured out despite winning it, how his mantra of "decide, don't hope" played out in real time at the Arizona Monster when second place closed a three-mile gap on him in the Tucson heat, and why he's working to get to the start line with genuine confidence rather than just telling himself he has it.His chalkboard message at Mingus is "I want it that way." He is a Backstreet Boys fan. He is not embarrassed about this.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!EPISODE DESCRIPTIONThey grew up in Italy, moved to New York City at 24, and now live in Prescott, Arizona — which means they will be one of the rare Cocodona 250 runners who passes through their own hometown during the race. They spent most of their life as a swimmer and volleyball player who genuinely hated running. Two and a half years ago, something clicked.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Fra Balbi; runner, community builder, and founder of TNBThrive, for one of the most meaningful conversations in the series. Fra talks about what it felt like to show up to Flagstaff Crest last year as the only nonbinary runner registered across all distances, why they ran with a sign that said "trans athletes belong everywhere," and what the finish line moment was that made them realize wanting it wasn't enough. They had to build something.That something is TNBThrive; an organization working to make organized sport more accessible to trans and nonbinary people, starting with running. Fra talks about what they've learned from Trail Sisters and Native Women Running as models, what race directors can do right now to make races more welcoming, and why organized sport is one of the most powerful mental health interventions available to a community that is currently under sustained attack.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!She represented Great Britain in the marathon at the European Athletics Championships and the Commonwealth Games, then decided that wasn't hard enough. She ran UTMB, TDS, Comrades, and the Annapurna Circuit solo. Last year she ran 300 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas at The Speed Project and finished second among all solo women — partly through a heat wave, partly running out of water in the desert, partly navigating on her own with an RV that couldn't go off-road.Now she's coming to Arizona for her first Cocodona 250.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Holly Stables, elite marathoner turned ultrarunner, co-founder of RushByNature, and co-host of the Running Won't Save You podcast, for a conversation about what happens when you can't go faster and start going further instead. Holly talks about the arc from running the same marathon time over and over again to eventually just wanting to do something completely different, what she learned navigating 300 miles of the American Southwest with almost no support, and what excites and terrifies her about a race that's actually organized, has aid stations, and goes somewhere on a marked course.She's contractually obligated to play in the Mingus Basketball Association. It's in her sponsorship agreement. She knows this.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Last year she organized her entire race plan by fictional universe. It was Galaxy Quest to start, Dune through the desert, Game of Thrones when it was time to race. It ended up being pure Mad Max the whole way through.She's back. This year the theme is Cocodona the Musical.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin sits down solo with Allison Powell — returning ultrarunner, storyteller, coach, Montana community builder, and Jeff Garmire's fiancée — for one of the most fun conversations in the series. Allison talks about what last year actually looked like out there when the weather came in and survival mode took over, why she's ditching the multi-universe structure this year in favor of one overarching theme of whimsy, and what it means to race the same 250-mile race as your partner while keeping everything completely separate — different crews, different bubbles, different tents the night before.She also talks about the Montana chapter of Women in Ultrarunning, why she's running for Runners for Public Lands this year, and what getting more women to the start line of races like Cocodona actually requires.Her chalkboard message at Mingus is about Air Bud. She has opposable thumbs. She can do this.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!She came to Cocodona 2024 burnt out on running, couldn't run in the two months leading up to the race, cross-trained her way to the start line, showed up with zero expectations, and finished on the podium. Then she signed up for the entire Triple Crown — Tahoe, Bigfoot, and Moab — and broke the women's record by 29 hours. She is back for Cocodona 2026, and for the first time she gets to actually arrive before the race starts.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Manuela Vilaseca — yoga teacher, Brazilian, Barcelona-based, and somehow one of the most decorated 200-mile runners in the world despite training on 20-kilometer runs and flying across three time zones to get to her races. Manu talks about what changed in her relationship with running — from obligation to opportunity — and what it feels like to come back to a race knowing you did it right the first time and still having plenty left to find. She talks about the sleep experiments she ran throughout the Triple Crown, what she's correcting this year, and why arriving a full week early feels like a genuine luxury.She also has absolutely no confidence in her basketball game.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!Kevin and Peter take the podcast out of the studio and onto the course for the first time, recording live during the Badwater Salton Sea race. In this experimental field episode, you'll hear clips captured throughout the race stitched together into a full audio journey. Back in the studio a few days post-finish, Kevin and Peter recap how they're recovering, tease some of the highlights (including a missed vomit recording), and preview what's coming up fast — Peter has the Cocodona 250 Brute just days away. They also cover the upcoming shakeout run at Deep Canyon Ranch, how to snag a free MBA shirt at Cocodona, and the Mets absolutely falling apart.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!He won the Showcase on The Price is Right. He survived 60 days alone across six extreme ecosystems in South America to win Discovery Channel's The Wheel, losing 45 pounds in the process. He ran 2,500 miles across America. He ran 1,050 miles across Great Britain. He broke Kilian Jornet's Tahoe Rim Trail record. He has never run Cocodona 250.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Adam Kimble: professional ultrarunner, motivational speaker, race director, coach, and by his own description, amateur survivalist, for one of the most varied origin stories in the series. Adam talks about crewing his athlete at Cocodona 2022, running through Prescott and Jerome and knowing immediately this race was going on the list, and what it actually takes to show up to something this long having spent his career doing things that have almost nothing in common with it.He also reveals that as a high school basketball player he once finished second in a three-point shooting competition that sent him to the state level. The MBA at Mingus Mountain has never had a more dangerous entrant.His five-word description of Cocodona 250 'a is beautiful tour of Arizona.' His chalkboard message is 'remember why you're here.' Both feel exactly right.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!He won Cocodona 250 on his first attempt in 2022. He came back in 2024, had a great first 50 miles, couldn't sleep, slowly eroded, finished fourth, and watched Arlen Glick open a three-hour gap on him while he thought he was running decent. He is back for 2026. He also just had a baby, which according to Joe is actually race prep.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Joe McConaughy — Stringbean, returning champion, new dad, founding father of the All In Trail Collective, and the only person in this series who asked us to write "the rest of the race hinges on this shot" on his Mingus chalkboard. Joe talks about what went wrong in 2024, why Cocodona is getting closer to being the Western States of 200s but isn't quite there yet, and what it actually feels like to race something this demanding while running on newborn sleep deprivation. He also admits he told his partner Katie he might get to the finish line and immediately wish he was home cuddling his son instead, which is either the most honest thing anyone has said on this series or a sign the sleep deprivation has already started.He is 6'3". He has dunked once in his life. He does not think Mingus will be the second time.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!She ran her first ultramarathon as a high school senior in road shoes, ate one spoonful of peanut butter for the entire race, finished second overall, cried at the finish line, drove home, and signed up for another one. She is 23 years old. This is her first 200-mile race.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Lila Gaudrault — nurse, Substack writer, self-coached, 10 FKTs, New England trail running ambassador, and the only person in the series who has trained for Cocodona 250 using something called Burrito League. Lila talks about building her own training plan that isn't really a training plan, what it feels like to step up to a distance 150 miles longer than anything she's ever done, and why she's approaching her first 200 as an adventure rather than a race.She also has a message ready for herself at Mingus Mountain at mile 107 — the moment she'll cross into the longest she's ever gone. It is the most honest thing anyone has said in this entire series.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!He won the first one. He's been back every year since. He dropped in 2025 after running the first 160 miles better than he ever has, four hours ahead of his ghost from the previous year, and then sat in his van in Sedona in the worst storm of the worst weather year Cocodona has ever seen and decided he was done. He is back for year six.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Michael Versteeg, who is refreshingly honest about where he's at heading into 2026. He's not as prepared as last year. His goal is to finish. Not because he's given up on running it fast, he still thinks the course can be run faster than he's ever run it, but because if this is going to be his last Cocodona, he wants to leave it on a finish. His daughter is almost three and this is the first year she'll understand what's going on. Everything he does revolves around her.He also wants to bring an adjustable basketball hoop to Mingus Mountain and potentially a skateboard to Sedona, because if you've run this course six times you need to find ways to keep it interesting.His five-word description of Cocodona 250 is simply: no.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!He went from 210 pounds to 150 pounds in a hospital bed, saw a Cameron Hanes Instagram post, and decided to become an endurance athlete. He has since won the World's Toughest Mudder, DNF'd a Colorado Trail FKT attempt at mile 420 with pneumonia, came back and broke the record anyway, and showed up to Cocodona 250 last year as a relative unknown and finished 7th overall.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with DJ Fox, who is back for 2026 with one goal — to be the first person across the finish line in Flagstaff. He breaks down exactly what went wrong last year: 17 hours of shuffling on dead legs through 40 miles because he missed his sleep window, watching Edher and Finn and Harry and Mike and Cody and Max all pass him, then waking up from a 90-minute nap and running those last 40 miles faster than anyone else on the course. He knows what he left out there. He spent this year actually learning how to run.He also wants us to draw him a gauge on the chalkboard at Mingus. A tiny sliver of green in the middle. On one side, being an idiot. On the other, being something less than that. He wants to live in the sliver.His caffeine consumption in the final 40 miles of last year was approximately 1,500 milligrams. He is not concerned about this.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!He started running at 27. He is not a professional athlete by his own description. He has run UTMB, Tor des Géants, the Swiss Alps 100, and Moab 240 — where he podiumed and then made a feature documentary about it, because finishing apparently wasn't enough. He spent the week before this recording running reconnaissance on the course. He has now covered about 150 miles of it on foot before the race even starts.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Jeff Pelletier — trail runner, filmmaker, and one of three Jeffs in this series — for a conversation about what it actually means to show up to one of the most competitive 250-mile races in the world as someone who approaches the whole thing cerebrally, documents everything with his partner Audrey, and genuinely believes that anyone with a healthy body could do what he does if they had the time and the mindset.Jeff talks about why Cocodona appealed to him, what he learned at Mammoth 200 six months ago that he's bringing directly into this race, and why he's writing himself a pledge to sign before the start line — because that middle section will try to make you complacent, and he's not letting it.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel. Whatever happens out there will almost certainly end up on YouTube anyway.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Code IRON at www.goodranchers.com and mention us in the post purchase survey!Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!He led Cocodona 250 for 150 miles in 2024. With two miles to go, his airway swelled shut, his oxygen sat dropped to 83, and he got caught. He came back.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Jeff Browning — Bronco Billy — who lives in Flagstaff, trains on the course in his backyard, and has been running hundred-milers longer than most of his competitors have been racing. He talks honestly about what went wrong in 2024 — an upper respiratory infection three weeks out, a viral load that came roaring back as reactive airway in the final miles — and exactly what he and Stringbean cooked up together to make sure it doesn't happen again. He breaks down his training tweaks, his sleep strategy refinements, and why running 70 to 90 mile weeks with five hours of Zone 2 cycling is hitting different than the 130-mile monsters he was doing before.He also learns about the Mingus Basketball Association live on tape, immediately says he'll shoot some hoops if we have it ready, and goes home to practice on the hoop in his driveway.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Use code DISTANCE at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!She finished second female at the 2022 Cocodona 250. She sobbed on the descent off Mingus Mountain. She wrote a blog post about the whole experience called "I'd Run 100 Miles for a Grilled Cheese Sandwich." She is back.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Lauren Jones — ultrarunner, writer, and proud cheese enthusiast from Atlanta — for one of the most honest and genuinely funny conversations in the series. Lauren talks about what it was like to run 250 miles through the Arizona desert, fall apart on a mountain descent in tears, keep going anyway, and then write about all of it with the kind of self-awareness that makes you feel like you were out there with her.She also gives her chalkboard message for Mingus Mountain, and it is exactly what you'd expect from someone who has cried on that descent and earned the right to say it.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.

FLAGSTAFF BOUND is BACK for 2026!Become a Distance to Empty subscriber!: https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Use code DISTANCE at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Janji.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!For most of last year's Cocodona 250, nobody knew where he was. He forgot his tracker at the start. When they finally got one on him, it didn't work. By the time race fans figured out where Edher Ramirez actually was, he was battling for the overall podium.He finished third. In one of the most competitive and brutal editions of this race ever run.In this episode of Flagstaff Bound, Kevin and Peter sit down with Edher — a locksmith from Las Vegas who found ultrarunning through a group of friends training for a half marathon, showed up to a trail race in Zion and had no idea what he'd signed up for, and has been escalating ever since. He talks about what he remembers most from last year's race — the mud, the finish line, his family — and what it was like to spend the final miles racing Rachel Entrekin for an overall podium spot while running on virtually no sleep. He talks about the hallucinations, the fences, the moment his crew sparked the fire that carried him over Elden.He also talks about what it means to compete at this level while running a business, training out of Las Vegas, and doing it all with his family at the center of everything. He runs with grit, gratitude, and the quiet confidence of someone who nobody saw coming.Cocodona 250 kicks off Monday, May 4th at 5 AM Pacific. Follow the action live on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel.