Unravelling with Tom & Pete

We're capping season 3 with a fun, heartfelt, and thoughtful conversation with another one of Pete's "bosom-buddies", Keven Krieger. Keven shares about the experience of losing his dad at a young age, and how that impacted his faith journey. He talks about how his reasons for going back to church changed over time, and how his continuously evolving faith journey is leading him to ask new questions, even if it might mean he needs to find a new church. Thanks for listening to this season of the podcast. We'll be back a couple months into 2022! _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

It took nearly three full seasons, but we had our first Catholic on the podcast! We met Michael Gorman through some, ahem...crappy circumstances (that'll make sense when you listen). Michael has a pretty fascinating story, as he spent years pursuing the priesthood before ultimately discerning that he didn't want to walk that path. We talk about his journey through that process, and along the way we asked Michael questions about a few Catholic practices and doctrines as well. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Whew...y'all. Those of you who've been with us for a while know that when Philip Joubert joins us for a conversation, it's fire. This time, Phil shares more about his experiences of growing up in church, what growing up in the black church gave him, how he has navigated church hurt and not let go of his faith through the process. Phil's insight is powerful, and he is generous in sharing his experiences and his wisdom with us. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

For many of us who are beginning to think about our faith in new ways and ask questions about what we were given growing up, Paul is...tricky. We've heard people use passages from Paul's letters in the New Testament to maintain patriarchy, support homophobia, and justify authoritarian leadership structures inside and outside the church...let alone the ways Paul was used historically to justify slavery. Those of us who want to hold on to some of this Christian faith, perhaps even an appreciation for scripture, we have to grapple with this question...what the F$&@ do we do with Paul?!To help us with this difficult questions, Dr. Tom Rundel returns to the podcast. He helps us dive into the history of the church and of how scripture has been read, which helps us understand how we got here in the first place...and then, if this is how we got here and where we are, what do we do in response?This is an incredibly permission-giving, thoughtful, brutally honest, grounded, and hope-filled conversation, especially for those of us who have started to struggle not only with Paul, but with scripture as a whole. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

On this episode of the podcast, we sit down with Tom's sister, Sarah Fifer. In addition to sharing how learning to listen to those who believe differently from her opened up her faith and her understanding of what the Church can and should be, Sarah also  gives us a glimpse into her experiences as a Physician Assistant in critical care through the COVID-19 pandemic. Understandably so, this pandemic has had a massive impact on her life, and it has given her a unique perspective on the Church that we (whether we're part of a local church right now or not) need to learn from. This is a truly important episode...especially as locally in Grand Rapids, MI, Spectrum Health (the largest hospital system in the area) has moved to "red status" for the first time since the start of the pandemic. Now more than ever, we urge you to check in with the folks in your circles who work in healthcare, to offer your care and support. As Sarah shares with us, daily holding the hands of people who breathe their last breath without any family members around them is changing the DNA of frontline healthcare workers forever. We have to take care of the people who have been taking care of us. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Our podcast intro you may have heard (or skipped through) quite a few times by now mentions about the grief that can accompany losing the certainty we were raised with in regards to our faith. Mark Shortt shares with us his experience of growing up in faith, going into ministry, losing his faith, and then rediscovering a sense of wonder, mysticism, and even what he now understands to be faith. Along the way, we talk about experiences in ministry, grappling with our trained abilities in "spiritual manipulation" as former worship leaders...among other things. (Seriously...this one is a little all over the place, but also fun.) :-)_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Many of us have gone through changes in our faith. In this episode, Erik Fuller shares his story with us, which invites us to ask the question...when does it become disingenuous to say that you are a Christian, and how do you know?Erik's story is rich, with many twists and turns. He continues to work for good things in the world, and he has an excellent window into many of the issues that currently ensnare the Church. Yet, he's currently come to the place where he doesn't consider himself a Christian, and doesn't want to get connected to the church. No matter where you are in your relationship with the Church these days...we think Erik's story is one worth listening to and learning from. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

This was such a rich conversation. We had the pleasure of spending time with Tim Whitaker, who is the founder and curator of The New Evangelicals, an online community (that is now starting to meet in-person!) that is all about "Learning backwards to go forward, Rediscovering our faith, Living in the tension of it all, Committed to King Jesus."Tim is the first guest on a series of conversations we're having with folks to share about their current relationship with Church. He shares openly and honestly about his experiences growing up in church, how his faith began to change and evolve over time, and what led him to start this online community. He also talks about how his work with this community impacted his own church involvement and relationships, as well as the things he has learned from listening to thousands of people share their experiences growing up in the evangelical church. He also shares about what "Deconstruction" has meant to him, and how he has sought to make room for folks, whatever their deconstruction might look like. Seriously...we loved our time with Tim. We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did. After you're done with this episode, definitely search for "The New Evangelicals" on Instagram, Facebook, Youtube, and your favorite podcast player, and check out their work. (And for real, reach out to him through DMs...he does a great job of connecting with folks individually!)_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Pete and Tom sit down with Pastor Matt Stone to talk about how the church has talked about and handled money...the good, the bad, and the ugly. They share their experiences in churches growing up, what they've tried to do and say in their respective ministries, what they've heard from other Christians and pastors, and more. You might here something in this episode that you wouldn't have expected to hear!_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Here is the first episode in an ongoing series of conversations breaking down the Complementarian Theology many of us were raised with…a belief common in many conservative Christian environments in which there are equal but specifically distinct roles for men and women in family, church, and society. In this theology, leadership is specifically reserved for men, and women cannot hold authority over men. In this first episode, we talk with Raphael Trujillo, a long-time friend and former ministry colleague who served as a pastor for many years. Raphael shares his journey of first claiming and teaching a strict Complementarian theology, and how his thinking has changed over the years through his experiences. (Don't worry; we will ABSOLUTELY include and even prioritize women's voices as we continue this conversation, but we thought this might be an interesting start into the conversation.)Enjoy this conversation, and stay tuned for the return of Mandy Fowler to the podcast to break down some of the finer theological points of Complementarian thinking, and how we might consider gender in other ways that are both more contextual in our current cultural climate AND still informed by the Christian tradition. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

This episode, Pete helps Tom reflect on his transition out of full-time pastoral ministry, while sharing his own experiences and wisdom. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

We're kicking off season 3!Special guest Anna joins us to share some of her story of coming to own her story and her sexuality while growing up in the church. This is a powerful conversation, and we are so grateful for Anna's willingness to share with us!_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

(Sorry if that title triggers you...)You may have noticed a pretty wide gap in episodes being released. Sorry about that! But, life happens...and in this episode, we take some time to share what's been going on in our lives recently, and just where we're at these days. (Hence the title.)We talk about Deconstruction (GASP!). We talk about Atlanta. We talk about a big change coming up for Tom. Pull up a chair with a cup of coffee, and let's just talk, man...how's your heart, bro? (Note: We had strong feelings about a few of these things that resulted in enough swear words that we have to technically call this episode "explicit". It's not really different from the rest of our episodes...you just might want headphones if you have littles around that you don't want hearing the occasional word that some of our culture finds offensive even though we don't.)_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Befuddling Bible continues...this time, with a passage that is truly bizarre and distressing for a modern-day audience. God asks Abraham to take his only son up to the mountain and sacrifice him (WHAT?) in order to honor God. Before the end, God tells Abraham to spare his son, and provides a ram for the sacrifice. Many preachers have used this story to say that God only asked Abraham to kill his son as a test of his faith (WHAT?!), and that we should be prepared for a similar test to our faith (WHAT?!?), and that God could ask for anything from us, and we have to be prepared to give it (WHAT?!?!?!?). We bring on a couple friends to help us sort through...what the actual F*$Y& is going on in this passage? Is this a passage about testing Abraham? Why would God even ask for this from Abraham in the first place? The conversation ranges into LOTS of different directions, including the theology in Christian worship music, how our cultural background can impact how we read stories like these, and ultimately, what we do with a passage like this. Matt Stone, the pastor at First Church of God in Greenville, returns to the podcast, and he brought along his friend Dr. David Aukerman, pastor at Mt. Haley Church of God. (David is awesome, super insightful, crazy smart, compassionate, kind, and did we say smart?)Thanks for listening to the podcast!_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Mandy's back! Yay!She introduces Open Theism to us, a theological idea that initially sounds strange or even radical in the ways it challenges the assumptions of "Classical Theism", but has some really fascinating implications on many other theological ideas we've talked about in this podcast. God's will/control, atonement theory, the problem of evil, and whether God is truly loving...Open Theism can give us things to think about in all those areas. (If you didn't understand half of the terms in that last paragraph...fear not! Mandy is here! She helps us sort through all these ideas and make sense of them all.)She draws extensively from a book called "The Most Moved Mover" by Clark H Pinnock: https://www.amazon.com/Most-Moved-Mover-Theology-Openness/dp/0801022908_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

We're talking about evil. What is it? How can you know when something is evil? Dr. Tom Rundel joins us on the podcast again to help us sort through this age-old philosophical question. He helps us consider "the question behind the question", and how that might tell us why this question feels so important to us. We also think through how we think about ideas like "evil" and "demonic" in the midst of current events, and in a climate that so often lends itself toward dehumanizing and even demonizing others. Dr. Tom is really smart. But he's also brilliant at helping us grapple with these very big ideas in ways that we can handle. Thanks for being so rad, Dr. Tom. :-)_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

We return to our "Befuddling Bible" series to talk about Job, the Old Testament book about a guy who goes through incredible suffering and tragedy. Many Christians think they know what the story of Job is about. But, most people give a summary of Job that is a little too neat, and merely scratches the surface of what this profound book has to offer. Rather than being a story about explaining why suffering happens, or showing us how Job is a good example of how to suffer well, what this book really is about is how people grapple with suffering that can't be explained. Each of the characters in this story have a lot to reveal to us, if we look closely at their conversations. If we look closely enough...we may begin to see ourselves. This is Tom's favorite book in the whole bible. This episode may show you why...and invite you to give this powerful wisdom book a closer look. Here's a link to the podcast mentioned in the episode: https://peteenns.com/episode-133-the-book-of-job/(Bible for Normal People is great. Highly recommend!)_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

It's Part 2, y'all!Picking up where the conversation left off in Part 1, we begin to ask the question about whether the church is still relevant to the world today (or what that word even means...), and some of the ways we think the church may need to change in the future._____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Oh boy...our first two-part episode!We wanted to have a conversation about the Church...and, turns out we had a lot to say about it. (A former pastor, and a tired pastor...are you surprised?)In this first part, we start by trying to define "Church", before then grappling with where we're at with the Church right now, and then starting to ask...is it worth it? Is it worth trying to correct, or should we just burn it all down??!

We're launching SEASON 2 of the podcast!!Much like we began the podcast by talking about the thing that was impacting all of us in ways we never could have imagined...we're beginning season 2 by grappling with the event that shook all of us at the start of 2021. This episode was recorded just a week after the insurrection and the US Capitol, and so we are very much still processing through it all, much like I'm sure you were for a while in January. Thanks for listening to our podcast. We're glad to be with you through the unravelling process of this thing we call faith. :-)_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Mental Health has become more of a commonplace conversation in our culture, and even in the church...but it still feels new. Many of us are now grappling with how we approach our own mental health, and how the ways we were brought up to think about mental health have affected us. For those of us raised in the church, thinking through our upbringings requires us to ask questions about how well (or not) the church prepared us to pursue mental health, and how to respond when our mental health is less than ideal. Tom & Pete share a bit of their experiences growing up, as well as some thoughts about how the church could do better at fostering mental health. They do so as a pastor and former pastor...NOT speaking as mental health experts, but as two guys with their own experiences in the church and navigating their own health. No matter where your mental health is at during these crazy COVID days, know that you are not alone, and that there are always folks who are willing to connect with you, and understand your struggles. If we can help you feel more known and understood, don't hesitate to reach out. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Many of the "Unravellings" we go through have to do with the Bible. Perhaps it's coming across a passage that we've heard taught on many times that we now find ourselves asking, "Is that what this is really saying...?" Perhaps it's just from reading something you never knew was in the Bible and wondering, "How is this considered 'holy' scripture?!" Or perhaps it's even beginning to ask questions about your relationship with the text as a whole. However you approach the Bible these days, most of us can agree that sometimes, the Bible is just really confusing. This episode introduces a new series we'll jump in and out of from time to time on the podcast called Befuddling Bible. We start by taking a look at some of the common "bumper sticker", "greeting card" passages that are often ripped out of context to say something that they weren't really intended to say. After pinballing around a few passages, we start to delve into the bigger questions about, why is context important when reading scripture? And, how does that impact how we approach this collection of books?_____Let's keep this conversation going!Specifically...is there something in or about the Bible that's always bothered you? A particular passage you struggle with, or a question you've never really been able to answer? We want to hear it! It could be featured on an upcoming episode. :-)As always, reach out to us with any thoughts or reactions to our episodes. Consider leaving a rating and review as well!And, we'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

“So, Unravelling is fine. But, what do you do when you're unravelled?”Aaron McConnell asked Pete this question while they were catching up. Tom and Pete realized, this was the next question they needed to wrestle with on the podcast. In this podcast, we describe the unravelling process as frustrating, painful, but eventually, beautiful, as it leads to a discovery and a clarification of what is ultimately true. But there's another part of the unravelling process that emerges from this conversation: Unravelling often feels like the wilderness. Wilderness; that ancient biblical image for being separated, apart, lonely. Once you've discovered what you do believe...how do you find a church? Where are your people? To whom do you belong? Per usual, our conversation leads to more questions rather than tidy answers. But if nothing else, these are the conversations where those of us who have felt unravelled can find others who are in the same boat with us...and perhaps, for a moment, we can feel a little less alone. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

What do we do when the news comes out that the people who have helped shape our faith into what it is today have had a moral failure? For many of us, this becomes a moment of unravelling. We brought Mandy Fowler back to help us process moral failures from church leaders. We think through questions such as, does a moral failure invalidate the ministry? When do we decide that this moral failure calls into question the rest of their work? How should forgiveness play into this, and what are the power dynamics involved that can make that difficult? And, how do we love and care for those who have decided to let go of their faith because of failures in leadership? This is a tough conversation...but an important one. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

When we think about all the ways that unravelling begins in our lives, at the top of the list for many of us is suffering. Suffering, especially when it doesn't make sense or when it isn't fair, can completely bewilder us. Many times, it introduces doubt into the equation for the first time. But as we've said many other times in the podcast, doubt isn't always bad. Sometimes, it can be the catalyst that helps you dig deeper into your faith, and find a better story to understand who God is. Dr. Tom Rundel joins us again to reflect about his own experiences of suffering, and how suffering impacts the spiritual life._____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

We like to believe that we keep religion and politics separate. Separation of church and state, keeping politics out of faith, etc. And yet, many of us grew up in environments where it was automatically assumed that if you were a Christian, you were a Republican. Tom & Pete bring on Pete's friend Dan Marsalese, and they discuss the many problems that arise when we attach a political party to Christianity, and why Christianity should be offering an alternative to the politics of our day today. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

When we reflect on “What We Were Taught It Means To Be Christian”, many of us can remember being counseled to be mindful about the influences on our lives...which was often code for, are you being friends with unbelievers? Tom & Pete share their experiences, break down this idea, and talk about how their lives have been enriched by friendships with people who think and even believe differently from them._____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

The mother of them all...Purity Culture. When we think about the “Things We Were Taught It Means To Be Christian”, sexual purity hits the top of the list for many of us, especially those who grew up in the faith in the 90s and 00s, when Purity Culture (True Love Waits, Silver Ring Thing, etc.) were at their peak. Cara Fifer has spent lots of time studying Purity Culture, how it has been propagated, and many of its unintended consequences...in particular, a culture of shame around sex and bodies that many of us have found very difficult to shake off as we've gotten older. In this episode, we raise some difficult, important questions; how do we address an increasingly sexualized culture that objectifies people (women in particular), without falling into the same trap by calling a woman's body a “stumbling block” (which is, in fact, an object)? How do we counsel young people in particular, but others at large, in how to navigate this sexualized world, without giving them shame? How can we offer a truly counter-cultural understanding of sex, physical bodies, and sexual desire that is healthy and life-giving? (And yes...Cara happens to be married to Tom.

There's a meme floating around these days that says, “I love Jesus, but I cuss a little.” It resonates with many of us today, but growing up, many of us were taught that these two things absolutely couldn't go together. What it meant to be a Christian was that you didn't say these specific words. Tom & Pete colorfully take this idea apart, and really think critically about the power of language, and how perhaps we could let go of a legalistic definition of which words are “out of bounds”, and instead think about how our faith convictions can help us think about how we communicate with one another more broadly. _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

If you grew up with Christian music in the 90s and 00s, you may enjoy the nostalgia of this episode as much as we did. We brought Mandy Fowler back to help us talk about our experiences growing up listening to Christian music...and NOT secular. We discuss those “if you like ____, then you'll love ____” lists, the dynamics of the CCM world (including the more recent shift to primarily worship music), and how the black & white dualism of Christ vs. Culture shaped our understanding of our faith, the world, and our music preferences while we grew up in the Church. This episode is part of a series titled “What We Were Taught It Means To Be Christian”. For fun, Mandy created a Spotify playlist of 90s Christian music: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/43Fp57k07QOrA7Xy5nEvCj?si=wUtBxhUSRhuLQVfb1rUJ9g_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

This episode starts a 6-week series of episodes on one theme: “What We Were Told It Means To Be A Christian.”(Don't worry, they won't all start with the same letter.)growing up in the church culture, there are all sorts of assumptions about what it means to be a Christian that, at this side of things, we aren't sure are truly essential in order to be a follower of Jesus. Some are beliefs, some are certain behaviors, some are kind of funny, and some are a little funny, and some have been harmful adaptations of the faith. This series will help us continue the work of unravelling the things that have attached themselves to the Christian Faith that don't necessarily belong in the faith, things we have begun to let go of, and in the process, have found more freedom, authenticity, and life in our faith. We begin with a wide-ranging conversation on God‘s will. This was the first episode that we had to re-record, because, you know...you gotta get God's Will right, or you'll be outside his plans!

While much of our world has begun moving to become committed to the equality of the genders, many pockets of the church have remained committed to a more traditional understanding of the roles of men and women in ministry...specifically, that leadership is restricted to men. This has created the tragic moment where a woman can be a dynamite leader, perhaps a CEO or business owner, and join a church where she's told, “your place is in children's ministry”. In this episode, we brought on Tom's good friend Mandy Fowler, an excellent theologian and a crucially important voice in the church, to help us discuss Women in Ministry. Mandy shares her story of growing up in the church and slowly discovering her call into ministry, and how her own thinking about women in ministry had to evolve in order to enable her to follow God's call on her life. ((Forgive us for the audio quality...we're still figuring out how to capture good audio from a web call!

Part 2 of our conversation about our frustrations with that which we love...the church. We brought on another former pastor and current licensed therapist Wayne Haines. After working in youth ministry for nearly a decade, Wayne went back to school to shift gears to become a therapist. His insight into the challenges of working in ministry, both as someone who's done it and as a therapist, are incredibly enlightening and helpful. Enjoy another brutally honest, but hopefully also helpful, conversation about the frustrations of being a pastor (or ministry leader!). _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

((If you work, or ever have worked, in ministry, you may find this episode to be equal parts cathartic and frustrating.

Wouldn't we all like to have a little more balance in our lives? In this episode, Tom and Pete are even more unscripted than usual, and just take some time to reflect on life during month 4 of the coronavirus pandemic. In some ways, they've been busier, but in others, they've found themselves with more time than they had before...which brings up that lovely dream of an idea called “balance”. But what even is balance? Obviously our “balance” has been thrown off with all of the changes around COVID. But really think about it...did any of us feel totally “balanced” before? We think balance is a well-intended myth, something we long for and strive for, but ultimately, we never really get there. So if we can't be “balanced”...what is a more realistic goal to strive for?Thanks for listening to the podcast. :-)_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

Whoa. Buckle up. This is by far our favorite conversation we've had yet, and it's powerful. Pete invited his friend Phillip Joubert who is an artist, pastor, theologian, and just flat-out brilliant. This conversation has a wide range, but ultimately, we seek to discuss the state of race in America, particularly in our churches, and try to discern how we can respond better than we have in the past. Phillip shares his story of being part of a wide variety of churches (his description of how to tell a church is a white church may have made Tom feel a little called out....

We had our first ever podcast guest!!! This means this episode will be at least 50% better than anything we've done so far. Dr. Tom Rundel is a pastor with a doctorate in spiritual formation and leadership. He is a long friend of Pete's and a new friend for Tom. In this episode, Dr. Tom shares his story of growing up in the faith, and how many of the things he was taught about the Christian faith ended up, in an odd way, fueling him in his education and calling into ministry. He has come to discover what he calls the major blind spots of American Christianity, most significantly that much of the American Church uses religion to hide from God. (Yeah...reread that last sentence and let your mind be blown...then prepare for more and listen as Dr. Tom drops wisdom bombs.)_____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com

“When were you saved?” “3 people were saved last week.” “I got saved at summer camp.”The language of “getting saved” is common among Christians, and it relates to one of the most important concepts within Christianity: Salvation. But have we really paused to consider what we are saying when we use the buzzwords of the faith? What does it mean to “get saved”? How does one become saved? And who or what are we being saved from?For Tom and Pete, growing up in the faith, there was a clear answer; they were saved from hell, which is a place of eternal punishment that God sends sinners who don't accept Jesus. This worked for a while, but eventually, some questions emerged. Chief among them was, “So....are we saying that Jesus saves us from...God?”In this episode, Tom and Pete break down the language a bit, reflecting on how their upbringings in the church shaped what they thought it meant to “get saved”, and how their understanding has begun to shift. One might say that the longer they've followed Jesus, the more God has saved them from a bad understanding of what it means to be saved! _____Let's keep this conversation going!We'd love for you to share this episode with a friend, family member, or even an enemy. Listen to it together, talk about it together, and then tell us about your conversation. Also, join our Facebook group to find some fellow listeners to wrestle with these ideas further. Reach out to us with any thoughts, feedback, criticisms, what is helpful, what doesn't make sense, what you think we're totally wrong about, or what you'd love to hear on the podcast!IG - @UnravellingPodFB - facebook.com/groups/UnravellingPodEmail - UnravellingPod@gmail.com