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Did you know we have two different measurements for feet in the US? Like the twelve inches on a ruler. There are two different versions. But not for long. Some good news regarding the prospects for a COVID-19 vaccine. A new Girl Scout cookie and why the cookies seem to vary from state to state. And a Swiss town that got a very delicious surprise snowstorm last week.Sponsor:Beachbody on Demand, Text "GOODNEWS" to 303030 for a free trial membershipLinks:America Has Two Feet. It’s About to Lose One of Them (NY Times)What the immune response to the coronavirus says about the prospects for a vaccine (Nature)There's a new French toast–inspired Girl Scout cookie coming for 2021 (Good Morning America)This Map of Girl Scout Cookies Differences Based on Location Is Crazy (Wide Open Eats)Snowing cocoa? Chocolate factory glitch dusts Swiss town (AP)Kottke.OrgJackson Bird on Twitter

Father and son team, the Duanes are the founders of Air Chathams Air Chathams is not your typical airline.This family-owned airline is the only operator in the world that would give you the chance to fly a regular flight on a 1950s, Convair 580 aircraft. And, as it if this was not enough, you can round-up the experience by visiting one of the most remote inhabited outposts in the planet: the Chatham Islands, a tiny archipelago (pop.400) several hundred miles off the east coast of New Zealand. The Convair 580, a rare 1950s airliner that Air Chathams still operates on regular services….but not for long! Think that New Zealand is at the edge of the World? You can actually go a bit further and reach the Chatham Islands, some 400 miles off the east coast of New Zealand, where the South Pacific meets the Antarctic Ocean But Air Chathams has also an eclectic fleet that combines vintage aircraft, such as the Convairs and a WW2-era DC-3 that is used on charter flights, with a modern fleet of turboprops for different sorts of air services in and around New Zealand (they also fly to another fascinating remote outpost Norfolk Island!).I called Duane Emeny, the current Chief Operating Officer at Air Chathams and second-generation of the founding family, all the way across 12 time zones in order to talk about this rather unique airline business, about the Chatham Islands and, more generally, about what it takes to run an airline that operates 19140s and 1950s aircraft.Check it out! Download this episode on:Apple Podcasts / iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts or StitcherThings we talk about in this episode:The fascinating story of Air ChathamsWhere are the Chatham Islands and how are they likeOperating a vintage airliner: the Convair 580 and the DC-3Air Chathams modern fleet: ATR-72, Saab 340, Fairchild MetrolineAir Chathams airline venture in the Kingdom of TongaAir Chathams flights within New Zealand and to Norfolk IslandHow to book a flight on a Convair 580The future of the Convair vintage fleetResourcesAir Chathams website, in case you wish to book your Convair 580 flight!My article on CNN about vintage airliners you can still fly, featuring Air Chathams’ Convair 580The Chatham IslandsNorfolk Island Convair 580Douglas DC-3 The cabin interior of the Air Chathams DC-3 One of Air Chathams Fairchild Metroliners Podcast Music: Five Armies by Kevin MacLeodLink: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3762-five-armiesLicense: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/Interview Transcript (please note that, although we strive to make it as close as possible to the original recording, the transcript may not be 100% accurate)Hello and welcome to the Allplane Podcast, where, every week, we explore different aspects of the aviation industry in the company of some of its most experienced, knowledgeable professionalsIn order to record this episode I had to wake up way earlier than usual, since there was a twelve hour time difference with the time zone where today’s guest is based, but I think it was well worth it...Because, today on the show, we are joined by the manager of a very, very unique airline…Air Chathams is a unique airline, both because of the composition of its fleet and its networkIt is the only airline left in the world to operate a fleet of 1950s Convair 580 aircraft on regular commercial services.It is also unique because they act as a lifeline and link to the rest of the world, for one of the most remote and isolated communities anywhere in this planet, the Chathams Islands, a tiny archipelago several hundred miles off the coast of New Zealand, located right in the middle of the so called “roaring forties” where the South Pacific and Antarctic Ocean meet. But also, because Air Chathams is a family affair that has grown organically over the last three decades to cover a network of very interesting destinations in and around New ZealandDuane Emeny, our guest today, is the second generation at the helm of Air Chathams.We are going to talk about what it takes to build an airline in this part of the world, the story of its vintage fleet, which includes also a WW2-era DC-3, as well as the modern part of its fleet and the plans he holds for the future of this airline and, more generally, about the uniqueness of the destinations they fly to.Without further ado, let me welcome Duane to the podcast!-Hello, Duane! how are you? -Very good. How are you? -Very good. So you are joining us today from literally the other side of the world, from Auckland, New Zealand-Auckland, New Zealand.-Although you are additionally a while your company is originally based in an archipelago, it's even more remote than New Zealand and it's called the Chatham Islands and it’s 400 miles east of New Zealand's East Coast, right?-That is correct. It's a very isolated island population 400 nautical miles off the east coast of mainland New Zealand place called the Chatham Islands and yeah, it's an island population that really has a very strong fishing and agricultural industry, so to predominantly export export products into mainland New Zealand and internationally. So it's a small island A small population that it actually has a very large GDP per capita based on the products that are harvested.-And I guess your airline plays a role in this export activity, because you basically and that's the reason we have you here is that you operate the local airline in the islands. And that's an airline that caught my eye. A couple of years ago when I was writing an article for CNN about vintage airliners that are still operating. And I came across this airline called air chasms that you're still operating one of the few if not the only one. The only Convair 580 that is still operational, right. So that's a 1950s aircraft. You also have a DC-3 and then you have some other more modern aircraft like an ATR and I think some sign up turboprops as well. So can you please tell us a little bit about this airline and how it started and the type of very original unique fleet that you have.-Yeah, absolutely no problem. So, yeah, it is. It is a very unique year line that we operate. The airline started in 1984 is my father Craig that started the company. He was actually living on the Chatham Islands. He was working for another very small airline at the time, and providing a service between the islands there's a main island, which is called Chatham, and then there's another small island called Pitt Island, and there are fishing communities on both of those islands. So his job at the time was making sure that the islands were connected and could go backwards and forwards using a Cessna 185, a very small airplane. And he would land on all sorts of grassy strips on both islands and transport cargo and yeah, as I say, people and everything you can imagine actually. So, you know, he spent a lot of time on the Chatham Islands and he got to know the people and he could see that there were some real issues getting produce into the mainland of New Zealand. The service at the time was very unreliable. It was subsidized by the government, but it was quite infrequent. And as I say, the reliability was affected for a number of reasons...weather...it was difficult getting to the Chatham Islands, because of its remoteness. And also, ultimately, because it was a subsidized service. the priorities of the airline providing that service was really elsewhere in their own network. -So can I stop you here for a second, because I wanted to ask you about the islands as I checked a little bit about how they are. Do you have about 600 people living there? Something like that?-Yeah, that's right. So the resident population currently is 600.-It’s 6-0-0, not 600,000...-Yeah. So that's to give an idea to our audience of how such a, this is such a, it's not just remote, but it's also kind of a small place. So it's, it's just like a village in many ways, right?-Absolutely, it's a community where everyone knows everyone. You know, it's made up of a number of large family groups really, and and you know, those those family groups held back to the first settlers of the island in the US Like 100 sites, it is a very small community, very close community and I'm very proud community-And how are the islands? Like, what sort of environment there is a lot? -It's very rugged, very rugged landscape. It's part of the, what we call the roaring 40s. So it's 40 degrees latitude. And, and that brings some reasonably strong weather. We have, you know, very strong winds. The temperatures do get very cold, although we don't really have anything in the way of like heavy snow or frost. But it is quite cold with the Windchill, the windchill factor from the south is very cold because basically there's no there's no there's nothing between Antarctica and us when it comes to the wind. So it does play some challenges living on the island and it certainly poses some challenges operating aeroplanes. -Mm hmm. Interesting. So I'm gonna post the link. Well, a few links if I can find some and transcript on the, on the show notes so that people can see how they look like I just had a look on on the internet earlier. And I found it really, really interesting. I really have a thing for this sort of unique remote, places. So that's something definitely to check out. But I interrupted you when you were explaining the story of the airline. So basically, your father realized that there was a market gap, or there was a need in the islands for better connections to the New Zealand mainland, right. -Correct. And that's what he said. Yeah, he found that. Yeah, yeah. The, you know, with the help of the, the Chatham Islands people and some of the you know, He developed a relationship with during his time there, he was able to invest in a very small aircraft It was a Cessna 337 so they had a nickname called a push me pull you there was a centerline thrust the aircraft with one engine at the back and one in the front. So effectively It was a multi engine aircraft but on a single line thrust and any use any aircraft between Chatham Islands and pit Island but he also started flying Chad up into mainland New Zealand to a place called De Guzman and in Napier, which is on the Hawke's Bay and the east coast of the North Island of New Zealand.-Hmm, I'm just checking now these aircraft Cessna 337. That's quite an interesting configuration, as you said, when you went into the front, one at the back-That's right. So yeah, well, it's sort of they work at the same time both engines are. Okay, now they always had one And I guess if one stopped then you, you know, you still had one left, but I don't think it would get you very far.-Interesting. I'm gonna post the link as well on the show notes. -So, then you said that the small airline was a one aircraft airline. And I'm from there he kept growing it...-Yeah, basically the demand for products of the island grew and, then, as it grew...And ultimately, you know, that takes us through to 1996. When we purchased our first Convair 580. And that was when we introduced that airplane into our fleet.-And what did you get this Convair aircraft because that was already by the late 90s. That was already kind of vintage. I mean, that aircraft was flying already for 50 years, since the 50s and we could say it's one of the last large piston engine aircraft, right? -Yeah, well, I mean, they all came out originally as piston radial aircraft. The one that we purchased in 1996 for the Chatham Islands was actually a Convair 340 variant with the piston radial engines. And then in the, I think it was throughout the mid 60s, that's when Convair started to retrofit the aircraft, with the Ellison propeller engines and that's really what, you know, ultimately was making those aircraft so popular with a lot of regional airlines throughout the United States and actually through Europe as well. So and, and you know, I mean, you're quite right, I mean to be introducing an aircraft like that in 1996...it certainly already had quite a life. I'm not I'm not entirely up to date with the full history of the aircraft we now call ZK-CIB, which is New Zealand registration. But it certainly did have an exciting life and had just one, one little mishap, I believe it was on takeoff where the aircraft was was departing on quite an icy runway and it actually came off the runway and the propeller went through the side fuselage, I think was a left hand prop detach and went through the side fuselage and almost right the aircraft off. So, you know, it was salvaged from the air and carried on flying and eventually ended up on, you know, one of the remotest islands in the world...-And how did you procure this aircraft? Where did you find it? -Yeah, it was a little bit before me, but Well, I mean, I was around, quite a bit younger, but my father went over to Canada, there's a place called Kelowna and they were actually retrofitting these aircraft. So they were buying existing hulls and they were converting them into these combi aircraft. So, effectively a combination of passenger and freight and, and also installing a large hydraulic cargo door on the rear side of the fuselage. So it could actually take a pelletized loading system using tag ons and flat pellets with straps in it so that that's really the key to it was that it allowed for the Chatham Island service you could run as a you know, it could be a full passenger aircraft carrying 39 people or it could be converted within one hour to a full freight aircraft and carry, you know, just under seven ton or you could decide to have it multiple configurations of, you know, 21 passengers with four and a half ton of freight, or a 31 passenger combination with around about two and a half ton of freight. So, it was a very versatile aircraft. And that's why it was so effective on the Chatham Islands.-And right now you operate it in which configuration? Or you're also changing all the time?-Yeah, all the time. We're changing it. Yeah. So depending on what the demand is, if it's a larger group that wants to come out to visit the island, and we get that quite a bit during the summer, then we'll run it as a full freight aircraft. Or if it's, you know...if the fish factories on the Chatham Islands have got a lot of product that they need to export quickly, they'll contact us and we'll fly it out as a full full freighter, so it's constantly being moved between configurations. -So you're flying it regularly. And you could actually book it as a regular flight with any...-Absolutely! All the flights to and from the Chatham Islands are still serviced 100% by Convair aircraft and they run on a schedule we operate. Currently it's on a very reduced period post COVID-19. But we're still operating three return flights from the Chatham Islands to the three main ports and New Zealand which is Christchurch, Wellington and Auckland. And you know, as we get closer to our summer, your winter, we will start to increase the schedule so to cater for the increase in passenger traffic demand and also a lot more fishing goes on because the weather starts to improve so the fishing boats can get out on the water and catch rock lobster and other fish species which they export.-Wow, it must be quite an experience to fly such an aircraft. -Yeah, we've had people from all over the world come and book on our airline, because they just love these airplanes and all they want to do is travel to the Chatahmas on a Convair and then fly again, so it is quite unique...-And that's not the only vintage aircraft that you have in your fleet because you also have...you used to have a Douglas DC-3, right? -Yeah, we still have a Douglas DC-3. It's a beautiful airplane. It's got a, you know, like all Douglas DC-3s that are still flying, it's got an amazing history. It came off the production line the day the the Russians invaded Berlin during WW2 so obviously at that stage the demand for aircraft going into Europe was less and so that particular plane was actually part of a number that was donated or gifted to the New Zealand Air Force and then they were used as trainers and they also saw some active duty. This particular one was on active duty in the Malayan crisis. When it came back to New Zealand it was sold what ultimately became Air New Zealand, but at the time it was called National Airways Corporation. And they were flown all around New Zealand. So initially, it was actually two airlines in New Zealand that were flying DC-3 and National Airways Corporation were actually in quite a heated competition environment so they upgraded the aircraft they implemented the what they called the skyline and mod so you know, it was soundproofing and improved cabin interiors in larger windows. So that's the shape that the aircraft is currently. From there, it went on leasing, it did some flying for an airline in Samoa, which is in the South Pacific, a South Pacific Island, from there it came back to New Zealand where it was used. Initially the plan was to use it to fly tourists around the country, but then it was actually converted to an agricultural aircraft. So it was spraying fertilizer on the farms around New Zealand, on certain parts of New Zealand. After that, it was a freighter, they pulled all the hopper equipment out for the fertilizing work and they turned it into a freighter. And it was flying between the two islands, so the North Island and the South Island of New Zealand, then it was reconverted back into a passenger aircraft. The intention was to use it on tours around the country again. But that never happened. And it found its way to the kingdom of Tonga where it was actually purchased by the Crown Prince, they have a monarchy in Tonga. And they actually had an airline up there and started operating two DC-3s. All through the Kingdom of Tonga. So they did that for quite some time. And that's really how we came to, to get our hands on the aircraft is that we took over the air service and Tonga, as we called it Chathams Pacific. It was a subsidiary of our mainline. And we purchased a hangar so that we could do our own airline maintenance at the hangar in Tongatapu, it’s an airport, which is their international airport, it connects the kingdom with New Zealand and other countries, Australia and through the Pacific. And there at the hangar was the Douglas DC-3 and my father is quite a passionate aviator. So he didn't want to see that aircraft turned into scrap. So we started a project, we got some help from Air New Zealand and some very experienced aircraft engineers that had worked on and flew the Douglas DC-3s in the past. And we slowly, but surely brought it back to life. Once we had it serviceable and certified, we actually decided to operate it ourselves. So we started flying passengers with that aircraft between Tongatapu and the Ha’apai Island group and also up into the Vava’u Island group, which is in the kingdom of Tonga. And it was actually very successful and was hands down one of the more reliable airplanes that we had because they were just so simple. They were built that way. So if you know you needed to change a cylinder, you could do that within a matter of hours. So they are very, very effective airplanes. We made the decision to exit that market, because there was at the time quite a large influence through government to accept an offer from the Chinese government for some MA-60 aircraft, and a whole aviation package around that so we just felt that it probably wasn't going to be a very fair environment to operate in and we decided that we would move out that part of our operation back to New Zealand and we took the DC-3s with us and since it got back into New Zealand we've been using it for predominantly for scenic flying and air shows so we take it to all the main shows around New Zealand and also it's based 24/7 these days in port city called Tauranga and that's on the western Bay of Plenty in the North Island of New Zealand and we've paired up with a company down there called Classic Fliers. So on the weekends and summer we take our DC-3 out for...I think, it's only 99 New Zealand dollars. I'm not sure what that is in euro...it's probably about 30 euro...we fly that aircraft for 30 minutes around the city as a sightseeing tour. It's very popular.-Wow, that's quite a story. I'm trying to picture now this DC-3 flying in the South Pacific and then in the beautiful landscape of New Zealand that must be really, really an amazing experience. So that's only for on.demand panoramic flights. It's not on, let's say, on regular airline service, this DC-3...-Yeah, that's right it's a line schedule days are well and truly over, but we do still use it on the on theme tours and and we do go to the shows and things like that as well. So it's beautiful. Everywhere it goes, it draws attention. And, you know, our goal now, because we are a family airline and we are very passionate about aviation, we want to make sure that people get to experience it here. -I see some pictures online, you have it painted in a sort of retro livery…-Yeah, so we've actually taken it back to its original paint scheme when it first started with a National Airways Corporation. And, and it was named “Pouwhaitere”, which is a Maori word for a yellow crested parakeet. And so that's the paint scheme that we've taken it back to.-I can see you also have other aircraft in your fleet. I mean, I don't want the audience to have the impression that you are like a flying museum! I mean, you have some modern aircraft as well. You have an ATR 72, you have some SAAB 340s, Fairchild Metros...Cessnas...Can you tell us a bit more about the rest of the fleet, the modern part of the fleet?-Yeah, no problem. So I guess it’s like anything...as an airline grows. You've got to move with the times and because we are family owned, we are limited by basically what we can afford as a family to operate. But as the airline has grown larger, we've been in a position to take advantage of some opportunities that have come our way. So we've expanded our domestic network within the North Island of New Zealand. We took over some flight routes that were previously operated by a New Zealand national carrier. And we implemented aircraft like the Metroliners...we bought into the Saab 340, which has been an extremely effective aircraft for our airline. And in more recent times, we have contracted with a company based in the United States to provide an aircraft for Tauck Tours, they are an international travel company that has guided itineraries throughout the world, including Australia and New Zealand. So we operate the New Zealand component of that with our ATR 72. So We're in a transitional state at the moment, we think we'll be retiring the Convairs within the next 12 months.-One question, I didn't fully understand what last thing you said about the ATR 72. So that's it’s flying itineraries for groups, is it?-Yes. So there's...if you google search...it's a company called Tauck, T-a-u-c-k, and they're an international travel company that does very high end fully guided tours all around the world. And they have an Australia and New Zealand component. So we operate the itineraries for New Zealand. So that aircraft, that ATR aircraft we purchased from Air New Zealand, we use it specifically on those charter services.-Okay, interesting. And from what you said, you also operate on the New Zealand mainland so your route network is not only flying between the Chatham Islands and New Zealand but also inside New Zealand. And I think you also have a flight to the Norfolk island. Is this right?-That's correct, yeah, we love flying to Norfolk Island!-Just for the audience: it's an island, a small island, that is literally between Australia and New Zealand and it's got, from what I heard, a very unique environment and landscape.-Right yeah! very similar to the Chathams except the temperatures are significantly better, it's a much warmer place, it's subtropical. They don't have any industry there, the only industry is tourism. So visitors from Australia and New Zealand predominantly, but in recent years, mainly from Australia. And, yes, we operate the Convair 580 from Auckland to Norfolk. So, interestingly, that's exactly the same distances as the flight from Auckland to Chatham Islands. And even more interestingly, if you flew directly from the Chatham Islands to Auckland and you carried on flying for another 580 nautical miles, you would land in Norfolk Island. So, go figure! We decided that was a route that was purpose-built for the Convair.-So your airline should be on the agenda of pretty much everyone that is interested in these remote out spots in the south.-Yeah, I think so-A very unique destination network...-Yeah. So it's probably for at least the next six months you can operate on, you know, fly on a very unique airplane to a very unique place. -How is it like to operate such a diverse and unique fleet? I guess when you're flying a Convair 580, a 1950s Convair, a 1940s, DC-3...then you have some other aircraft...all the maintenance and all the other MRO stuff that goes around those airplanes. It must be quite complex to run an airline like that. I'm just thinking specifically about the Convair and the DC-3, they might require some maintenance work. And I don't know how easy it is to source spares and components that you might need eventually…-Yeah, you're right. It is it is challenging and I think in the early days, you know, the mid 90s when my father first bought the Convairs, yeah, they had a lot of they had a lot of issues with just getting to grips with the aircraft, actually, because it is very complex and it's a beautifully designed airplane. Just like the DC-3, actually, it was so far ahead of its time. But it is very complex and there are a lot of systems And there are a lot of moving parts. And so, yeah, they had some interesting times. But I think, you know, having operated the aircraft for as long as we have, you know, 24 years, really then you see a lot of things and, and also in that time, we were able to build up a very good stock of space. So, we have the operating knowledge now, we have in the last decade the space to back that up. So, that actually became an extremely reliable airplane for us and they continue to be very reliable.The DC-3, it's similar, I mean, there is still a number of Douglas DC-3s around the world and there are a number of manufacturers that will provide overhaul and parts that the aircraft is obviously supported by Boeing. So, you know, all in all, it's, it is a challenge and like everything in aviation is very expensive, but yeah, it's still possible!-What about the pilots? Do you need pilots with some specific training to fly the Convairs and the DC-3s?-Yeah, absolutely! So we operate in accordance with our regulators. So that's the New Zealand Civil Aviation. And most of the framework of those rules come from ICAO and the FAA. So, it's very similar worldwide, with a lot of Western countries in terms of how those aviation industries are regulated. So we operate...they call it part one two five the Douglas DC-3, because that's the category that aircraft fits into, less than 30 seats. So that is operated to a very high standard of training. To give you an example, like anything if you want to fly that airplane, you have to do a ground school, you have to complete that then you have to type rating which consists of around about five hours of flying in the actual airplane that's running through a whole scenario of emergency and abnormal events. And then you have to go into line training, which, depending on whether it's an initial or upgrade training can be anywhere from sort of 10 to 15 hours online, so that's under Part one two five then with a Convairs, it's even, it's even more thorough with the Part 121, which is your larger aircraft category, over 30 seats and pilot and greater than 3.4 ton. So it's a ground school that consists of around two weeks in class. Then you go into simulators, we have one of only two fixed base Convair simulators in the world that's based on Chatham Islands. So you end up as a pilot, you'll spend probably about two weeks in the simulator, doing exercises then you'll get into the airplane itself. Complete your type rating because there's some things you can't do in a fixed base simulators, you complete your type writing in the airplane. And then you go online training for, you know, 100 hours 100 flight hours or 75 flight cycles. And then at the end of that if you've completed all your exercises, you make the grade that you'll be signed out to fly with on a regular lineup, so it's very thorough and terms of our training standards and has to be because, you know, you've got a lot of responsibility.-Yes. Well, I guess there's not that many pilots out there that have followed this procedure. It's a pretty exclusive club.-Yeah, yes. I mean, my father and I both fly the Convair and we both fly the Douglas DC-3. He still flies it, I haven't flown the DC-3 for a couple of years now...But, but yeah, they are complex airplanes, but they're great fun. The Convair 580 is still my favorite airplane to fly out of everything and I've flown you know, Metroliners and Saabs, as well, so yeah…! -Wow. So they can find you out at the rudder when people come onboard! Very good and just one question that is inevitable these days: is about...well...the pandemic. You are in one of those parts of the world that have, let's say, they have best managed the whole situation. And so I guess you are now getting to normal almost close to normal?-Yeah, it's getting normal in terms of our domestic environment. We have a level scale so it goes from level one to level four. Level four was locked down. Level three was not much different than lockdown. Level two was when a lot of those restrictions were lifted. We were in that environment for a number of weeks. And then we've just in the last two weeks transitioned back to level one, which is basically life as normal in New Zealand, but we still have very heavy restrictions on international travel into our country. So from a domestic point of view, it just feels like everything's normal again, we can go to sporting matches with stadiums full of people. You know, we can obviously get public transport...there's no restrictions on that. There's no social distancing mandated on the aircraft. So from a business point of view, it makes it a little bit easier to get things back on track, but I think it's going to take a very, very long time, and I think that the economic impact of, of COVID on our domestic market and also the global markets will be huge and is going to be realized over the next six to 12 months. - Did the virus reach the Chatham Islands? -No! didn't reach the Chathams and it didn't reach Norfolk Island. So yeah, that's another reason to travel there. Yeah!-Yeah, definitely! So just for the people that might be interested in flying your airline, they should go and book on the website, right, AirChathams.co.nz and what other ways…? you also offer some tools, panoramic flights, etc. So everything is bookable there?-Yeah, I mean, if you want to just have a look, an understanding of what we do and what aircraft we fly, just go to AirChathams.co.nz. Have a look. And if you want to book a flight, you can do that from the website. We are also on a lot of aggregators throughout the world that actually sell our products. So you can look on Skyscanner and things like that. Believe it or not, you can book a flight on a 1960s Convair via a modern platform. So it's quite quite unique. -Yes, indeed. And I'm going to post a link on the show notes. So it's airchathams.co dot as I said. Great! So it's been so interesting to have this conversation. It's definitely a very unique airline, very unique fleet and very unique network that you are operating. So I guess that's going to be quite interesting. Too many of our listeners a derivation enthusiast and...who knows you might get some of them soon onboard your Convair or your DC-3 or your other aircraft…-It's a very unique family and business and yeah, we're proud of what we've managed to achieve over the years since 1984. And of course you know, the future is going to be interesting as well as we unfortunately have to transition away from Convairs. It'll be a very sad day for us when we have to do that, but we're gonna move into operating more Saabs and potentially more ATRs and...just see where that takes us.-Do you have already a calendar for the retirement of the Convairs? -Yeah, it's been slowly been worked out. We're currently operating three Convairs. One's a a freight craft. So, that one does the flight between, predominantly, Auckland and Christchurch, which are two major cities and New Zealand. And then we have two passenger aircraft, the combis that I've spoken about mainly, and also another aircraft which we purchased from an airline called Era Aviation which were based in Alaska, that was a 50 seat on the air and it was passenger only, but you know, we called key Kiwi ingenuity and we installed seat backs. And we've actually managed to make that aircraft quite effective at carrying both passengers and freight. What we think will happen as towards the latter part of this year, will reduce our fleet to two Convairs and by around mid next year, we'll probably retire both of the Convairs, so we won't be operating anymore and our fleet. Yeah, things can change, but we're currently looking at programs to have our Saab and ATR aircraft upgraded to fly the oceanic routes out to Chatham Islands and Norfolk Island so that they can start to operate on those predominantly Convair sectors.-Ok, so aviation enthusiasts that wish to fly the Convairs have a sort of narrow window of opportunity to do so, provided the travel restrictions are lifted, they will need to hurry up to experience these aircraft before they are gone. Good, thank you very much Duane!, it's been pleasure talking with you and learning about your very unique airline. I will post all the links and information on the show notes so that people can have a look. Thank you very much and have a great week!-Thanks, Miquel!

BE SURE TO SEE THE SHOWNOTES AND LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE HERE. Eve Picker: [00:00:16] Hi there, thanks so much for joining me today for the latest episode of Impact Real Estate Investing.   Eve: [00:00:22] My guest today is Harriet Tregoning, the director of NUMO, the New Urban Mobility Alliance. As a self-described "planning geek" and "transport nerd", Harriet is a veteran, smart-growth advocate. She has been wrestling with issues of planning, mobility, disaster resilience, housing and community development issues for over two decades. In her work, she has focused on resilience in the face of disaster and challenge, including the changing climate and equity in transportation and access.   Eve: [00:01:06] Be sure to go to evepicker.com to find out more about Harriet on the show notes page for this episode and be sure to sign up for my newsletter so you can access information about impact real estate investing and get the latest news about the exciting projects on my crowdfunding platform, Small Change.   Eve: [00:01:27] Hello, Harriet, I'm really honored to have you on my show today.   Harriet Tregoning: [00:01:31] It's my pleasure. I've been really looking forward to it.   Eve: [00:01:34] Great. You know, you've said for many people, change is a really difficult topic. And you actually said I can't say I love it myself in my own neighborhood. And it sounds to me like change has been a theme in your career from planning director in DC to director of HUD's Office of Economic Resilience and now heading up the new Urban Mobility Alliance. So you wrestle constantly with what could be better and what should come next. And right now, the huge change we're all confronting is driven by this pandemic. I'm wondering what the thread is that you see emerging around Covid19, this pandemic, and transportation issues.   Harriet: [00:02:17] Well, I think the link has been really, really an important one and I think the pandemic has revealed both the vulnerability of our transportation system and pointed out who is not being well served, how transit is vulnerable and yet essential, but also highlighted that while there are some risks to being close together, that is also essential in many ways, to have things and people that you need near you. So I think in many ways you could see the pandemic and its impact very much through the lens of transportation and, you know, even our development pattern and how that affects what people can get to easily or not.   Eve: [00:03:13] Yeah. In Pittsburgh, we have a pretty active bus system, which is all about, you know, cramming people onto this moving box, right? And that's the exact opposite that you want right now. What other way can these can people get around right now?   Harriet: [00:03:32] Well, I think what it highlights maybe, Eve, is not so much even that that type of transportation is that, is an optimal right now. I think it suggests that we need redundancy in our transportation system. That we, there are many occasions, you know, global pandemic or not, where one mode of transportation isn't suitable for you, but yet you're trapped if that's the only mode you have, whether that's auto mobility, whether that's transit, whether that's, you know, maybe you have mobility issues in general and it's hard for you to do other things like walk or bike.   Harriet: [00:04:14] But, you know, one of the great things I got to do when I was at HUD was really work on resilience from disasters. And at the same time, in D.C., I had a firsthand experience with being a local official during the last great, you know, during the Great Recession and an economic crisis. In both of those roles I got to see first-hand how important those transportation choices and options really are. Think of evacuating Houston in the advance of a predicted hurricane. Now, despite having more lane miles and freeway than virtually any other U.S. city, things were utterly grid-locked and people couldn't get out. We had an earthquake in D.C. in 2011. The federal government and all the governments in the area told people to go home while they check the stability of buildings at exactly the same instant and the gridlock was unbelievable. But if you were on a bicycle, you had not just a normal commute home, but you had a space commute because no other vehicle was moving. And so you didn't have to worry about speeding cars or things like that. So, that redundancy is really, really an important thing. And what we're seeing is that we don't have that in the US in most cases, that people have at best, they have one choice and when that choice is no longer suitable for whatever reason, they're really stuck.   Eve: [00:05:47] How do you change that? How do you design that redundancy into a transportation system in s city?   Harriet: [00:05:54] Well, one of the great things, you know, that's true about the moment we're in right now is both the technology and some degree of electrification have provided us with a lot of additional choices that can either substitute for or better complement the transportation that we already have. We're a long way away from a perfect intermodal system, but e-bikes, e-scooters, e-mopeds are recent additions to many cities across the globe and those additions can cover a range of trips from, you know, a few hundred yards to, you know, to on an e-bike you could easily go seven or ten miles without breaking a sweat. Those options are really, really new things in cities and a lot of ways and so, having those to help you get more easily to a transit stop or help you get from a transit stop to the place that you need to go, bikes can be great because they can carry cargo and probably electric cargo bikes are one of the fastest growing types of of individual transportation that's out there. Some places, Germany for example, have seen unbelievable increases in e-bikes. I have to say, I'm a proud bike owner myself as of last summer. It's really game-changing and super fun as a way to get around. So I think that making provisions for walk, bike and and micro-mobility on our streets where people don't have to be in fear of their lives from fast moving vehicles is really critical.   Eve: [00:07:38] Probably in my mind that's the real issue, you know, these solutions like e-bikes and e-scooters and e-mopeds are all fabulous, but it's the traffic on the street and a cultural shift that really has to happen, maybe as much as these solutions, right?   Harriet: [00:07:55] You know, you've really hit the nail on the head with that comment. It's absolutely true that there's a lot of latent demand for that sort of transportation, that people are totally fearful about riding in mixed traffic with automobiles, and so I think it's really up to city planners and transportation departments to provide those safe facilities and, you know, it's absolutely been demonstrated that if you build it, people will use them. Those things are really important. I could give you another example from when I was a local official during the recession. You know, we saw hundreds of cars drop off the DMV rolls in D.C. I was afraid people were fleeing the jurisdiction. But it turns out they were dialing down their transportation costs because they could. So, they were getting rid of a car. So they were a two-car household they were becoming a one-car household. I'm sure in their minds, temporarily, right? Just a temporary step to lower their costs. [Right.] And some one-car households became no-car household. Again, maybe they thought of it as a hardship, but there were other options that they could use so it was absolutely doable for them. As a consequence. we had very little bankruptcy, very little foreclosure in the district because people could manage those economic hard times and it was similarly true for the other inner ring jurisdictions, Arlington and Alexandria. But in the same jobs and housing market, which was the Washington metropolitan region, the jurisdictions fared extremely differently and so did households. If you didn't have those transportation choices, you were stuck. And those communities saw so much more bankruptcy and foreclosure, so much more, so much higher declines in property value. There are still some parts of our region who have not fully recovered. Whereas the places that had these choices, the market and the budget debt, but they didn't plummet and the rebound was so rapid that this was really a case where those jurisdictions sprang ahead in terms of their resilience. They didn't just recover, they did better. They improved on their share of the region's job and housing growth post-recession. I know in part because of the lesson of those choices and what they can do for the resiliency of households and of jurisdictions.   Eve: [00:10:19] I was in Beijing a few years ago and was really struck by, you know, first of all, they have a pretty wonderful subway system. But the stops are really far apart and whenever you go to a subway stop, there are literally thousands of bicycles parked outside it. Thousands. So, the culture there is very much you have an old battered bike and you get yourself to, you know, the next bit of transportation which gets you where you want to go faster. And so it's sort of this connected string of things that get you to places, not just one type of transportation. I thought it was pretty fabulous. I'm afraid China's probably going the other way now. The other thing in China that I thought was really amazing was, if you watched bicycles on a street with cars it was almost like a dance. They just sort of respected each other and the bikes would keep going and the cars would move around them. It aas an entirely different arrangement then in our cities here.   Harriet: [00:11:22] I think that that's a good point, too. And I think that you see, when bicycles become a visible and significant part of the transportation picture, they are treated differently. You know, I've been in Shanghai and been in a mob of cyclists. I mean, the largest group of cyclists I've ever been in and it wasn't an organized ride. People were just, you know, riding, you know, going about their business and, you know, and they took up lanes, you know, travel lanes, general purpose lanes, you know, for the bikes. And it didn't, you know, it wasn't causing an outcry. And in places like Amsterdam and Copenhagen, the cyclists easily outnumber the vehicles on any given day and they've given over more and more of the right-of-way to accommodate cycling. You have to wait through several light cycles in some places, you know, on your bike in order to get through an intersection because there's so many cyclists. So, yeah, that makes a difference.   Eve: [00:12:20] Why are we not there in the US? Like, why are we sort of lagging behind all these other countries?   Harriet: [00:12:25] Well, I know that you're all about real estate. I mean, I think the answer is the real estate issue. We, in the U.S., with the advent of the automobile, you know, more than a hundred years ago, we started making decisions that, more so than any other western country, we started substituting auto-mobility for proximity.I mean, think of how much proximity was valued and how, when we didn't have an automobile for transportation, you know, things were close together. You know, neighborhoods had almost everything you needed, you know, in walking distance. Even the streetcar suburbs, which is one of the earliest examples of transport and real estate kind of going together, a lot of those early streetcar suburbs were actually owned by property owners and developers who wanted to open up land for development, even though distances weren't very far. But with the automobile, you know, our U.S. cities in particular really bent over backward to accommodate the automobile and accommodate those who wanted to use auto-mobility in order to access what was largely cheap, undeveloped land, you know, to put factories, to put office parks, to put housing and to use cars instead of walking or biking or streetcars to be able to get people there.   Harriet: [00:13:57] And what's happened increasingly is that auto-mobility is out of the range, the price-range for many households and that means that they don't get access to really important things that are part of economic mobility. They can't get or keep a good job because their transportation is unreliable. They can't access health opportunities, educational opportunities, you know, without a lot of time and effort. So it's really created a bifurcated society. And I think one of the things about this crisis that we're in globally, is that some of the workers that we most value, that we most rely on, who are part of the food chain, the supply chain for our food, who re-stock grocery stores, who clean, ICU's, these low wage workers are really struggling to get to their jobs and to keep doing the important and at this point, even dangerous things that they're doing to serve the rest of us. And, you know, that is part of the example of why and how our transportation system is not serving us.   Eve: [00:15:04] And I think also in terms of real estate, 30 years ago people did not live in cities. So cities have really seen a pretty, pretty significant comeback. And in places like San Francisco, especially, it is out of reach of those workers to be living in the city. So they're being pushed further and further and further out, which means that transportation becomes an ever bigger problem, right?   Harriet: [00:15:32] This whole conversation is really about transportation and land use, like, these two things have to happen together. That's an example of where the land uses and the provision of housing isn't keeping up with the provision of jobs. And in California, part of that conversation is really about their tax structure. But yeah, I think in every place we have that mismatch, that spatial mismatch that we need to solve and I'd rather solve it with land use and real estate than providing lots of additional transportation infrastructure that's costly to maintain, costly to access and keeps people further apart.   Eve: [00:16:13] Yeah, I mean I read an article recently in Strong Towns, I think it was a an old one, but about the parking requirements for a retail space, which sort of drives that space to become a little bit of a strip mall. And obviously the more parking a small retail space has to provide, the more they seek cheaper solutions, which, again probably further out of the city. All of those decisions, all the parking requirements, all the decisions that are sort of burdened on land use just make the problem  exponentially worse. If you waive those parking requirements for a small business so that they could locate in the heart of a small main street, then they'd be within walking distance of a lot of people and...   Harriet: [00:17:03] I think that's right, and I think that parking, the parking requirements, which, you know, one of my heroes is Don Shoup, you know, who's written a wonderful book called The High Cost of Free Parking, you know, and his researchers, the students and graduate students at UCLA have basically identified that there are six to nine parking spaces for each and every automobile in the US, which is horrifying to, kind of, contemplate and that, you know, at any given moment that parking isn't being used, right? You know, and when retailers provide parking, what they want is, you know, parking for, you know, Black Friday. You know, they want the peak of the peak parking, which means that any other time, it's mostly not being used.   Harriet: [00:17:56] So I think smart cities, you know, are lowering parking requirements, requiring shared parking, you know, so that the time of day usage can be shared. So an office building and an apartment building, you know, might be able to share parking or a movie theater and, you know, and an office might be able to share parking. And there also de-coupling the parking. So, if I don't want to have to pay as part of my apartment rent for a parking space because I can get by without a car, I don't want to have to have that parking included. And I don't want to have to buy a house or a condo where that is necessarily included either. I'd like to be able to purchase those things separately only if I need them.   Harriet: [00:18:40] So all those things that cities are doing to de-couple parking and to be smarter about it means that they're producing less parking going forward. And almost everyone who's looking at the future of travel is also thinking that we will have less individual car ownership in the future and also less need for parking. Because right now, you know, not only is parking wasteful, but we don't drive cars that much. You know, our average in the US is 5 percent of the time, on average, the cars are being driven along, 95 percent of the time they're not being driven. If you're in some other business, yeah, you'd say, oh, my gosh, that's not an asset utilization that's very good. I should be trying to be more efficient. So, I think that's also the future.   Eve: [00:19:30] And then, of course, as parking requirements are reduced, you're freeing up land. Much needed land for affordable housing and other things like that, that are close in to jobs. So, they're really big issues. So, yeah. So, what's your background and what path led you to all of this?   Harriet: [00:19:51] So, I studied civil engineering in school, but I've been, you know, I've been essentially pretending to be a planner for more than 20 years, really. And I have to say I was probably a reluctant planner. I admired planners very much but, you know, I wasn't necessarily trained in it.   Harriet: [00:20:10] And my first job, my first official planning job was actually to be the secretary of planning for the state of Maryland. I worked with an organization you might know, the Urban Land Institute.   Eve: [00:20:22] Oh, yes.   Harriet: [00:20:23] When I was at the Environmental Protection Agency to help create a national smart-growth movement, because, from my perspective sitting at EPA, we were kind of swabbing the deck of the Titanic to worry about what was smaller and smaller amounts of pollution coming out of tailpipes and smokestacks and utterly ignoring the changing use of the land. That more and more land was being converted to roads and driveways and parking lots and making watersheds impervious and causing lots of runoff, and even though automobiles were getting more efficient in terms of fuel and economy and pollution, that people were driving more every year. So, and EPA was doing absolutely nothing to address those issues. So, from a pollution perspective, I thought if we could figure out a way to have more compact developments, so in the course of doing that I actually became completely impassioned about the idea of returning to a historical development pattern that was six thousand years old, you know, the walkable neighborhood, and that so many people would benefit. If we had more walkable neighborhoods, it wouldn't be a rarity and an expensive amenity that only a few could afford but if we had it for everyone we'd be healthier, our transportation would be a lot more affordable, it wouldn't be nearly so expensive to serve people from a government perspective, and maintaining infrastructure, we'd save farmland and forests, we would reduce pollution and greenhouse gases. I mean, there were just tons of reasons from so many stakeholders' perspectives why it was better, that it really did grow into a movement.   Harriet: [00:22:02] And so, ever since, I've been doing something having to do with this. I mean, the good news, the bad news is that there are so many reasons why we have the development pattern that we do in the US than in other parts of the world, that any one change, any one job can't fix it all. There are hundreds of jobs, hundreds of things that would need to change and have begun to change to make a difference. So that there are lots of jobs that I could be in and I'd play a role in that change and have held a lot of those different jobs, whether it's doing disaster recovery at the federal level or sitting on the board of our transit agency or being the head of planning for a state or for a city, and now at an advocacy organization that really focuses on all the different stakeholders in transportation.   Eve: [00:22:52] Yeah, no, I agree with you and I'm doing my little bit at Small Change and trying to support projects that make a difference in the same way. You know, I've been fortunate with this podcast to, to interview really amazing people tackling these issues in so many different ways it's absolutely astounding. So, do you think we'd better off than we were when you started thinking about this decades ago?   Harriet: [00:23:16] I think we are. I think that, as you mentioned, the comeback in cities, the increase in walking and biking in a lot of our cities, the increase in transit use, you know, relatively speaking I would say we've hit the peak and declined and obviously transit is on life support at the moment with this particular global pandemic. But transit of the value-add for real estate has also been amazing. You know, I find it wonderful that there's now something like walk scores that people look at when they're deciding where to site an office or where to buy a house or rent an apartment - to look at what's the stuff within walking distance?, how convenient is my neighborhood going to be? So, yeah, I think that we're definitely making progress.   Harriet: [00:24:02] We have a, we have a long way to go to make it normative in the US for these choices to be ubiquitous and everyday. But I think every crisis that we've had, whether it was the Great Recession or what we're in the middle of now, point to some of the benefits of proximity and I think we'll see more of that when we come out of the health part of this crisis and start really looking at the impacts on the economy. And my hope is that we can do more to provide that infrastructure that will make it safe and comfortable for people to use the transportation choices that should be available to them - the walking, the biking, the micro-mobility, the transit - that we'll continue to think about trying to put the things that people need closer to them. And I think telework is going to be a much bigger part of our future employment picture and that also means that on any given day in any ostensibly residential neighborhood, there's gonna be an office building's worth of workers, you know, in that neighborhood needing coffee, needing a place to meet people for lunch, you know, needing a place to get out of the house and do some work and hopefully that will encourage more mixed use in even those currently residential only neighborhoods.   Eve: [00:25:24] Yeah, so a real loosening up of zoning as well that can really help make better cities for everyone, right?   Harriet: [00:25:31] Yeah, absolutely.   Eve: [00:25:32] So I have a question for you and that's what's next for NUMO?   Harriet: [00:25:37] Well, NUMO is definitely looking at both responding during this crisis, but also looking at what's coming. You know, a lot of the micro-mobility that have entered market in the last couple of years, you know, have brought some new choices to residents, but they have come in as pure market players when in fact micro-mobility might be a great thing for employers who can't fill certain types of jobs to be offering to those workers. It might be that cities are interested in using micro mobility to help people better access transit or to be a substitute when transit isn't running for whatever reason and really think of more integration of these new choices with the existing public transportation system. So I think those opportunities are there. Those have not been the business model that a lot of these new entrants have been using. But we're working with some folks right now to talk about how employers, hospital employers, grocery employers are really interested in helping their workers get to their place of work and that having dedicated fleets of micro-mobility vehicles, whether those are e-bikes or e-scooters or e-mopeds. Those might be really great choices for them and I think they'll find that that's true, not just in the crisis, but after. And I think that's also true for transit agencies. You know, if we could integrate the payments across different types of transportation, you pay once and you can take, you know, you can have a number of choices for how you get from the place where you are to the place you want to be, even if those trips involve an e-bike and then a train and then a scooter at the other end. If those were all part of a seamless transportation experience, a lot more people would be doing it and you could bundle trips in a way that really create value and incentives for the rider for the person needing the transportation.   Eve: [00:27:45] So this is sort of a perfect storm for transportation and technology and maybe this horrible pandemic will kind of move a little forward more quickly and we'll see something good come out of it.   Harriet: [00:27:56] Yeah, and I think the data that all of these new options are generating is a whole nother thing that we haven't been getting from, you know, we don't know nearly as much about any individual car movements as we know about transit and about these technology-enabled micro-mobility devices. So that tells us a lot about who's traveling where and when and where  there are big gaps where people don't have access and how that access, you know, that access this crisis has really highlighted how really important that is. Whether it's two grocery stores or to hospitals or to critical places of work. So that's, that's the thing I think we're gonna be focusing on.   Eve: [00:28:41] Well, thank you very much for talking with me today. I can't wait to see what comes next.   Harriet: [00:28:45] Thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure. I'm really happy to have done it.   [00:28:52] OK, thank you. Bye.   [00:28:56] That was Harriet Tregoning, the director of NUMO, the New Urban Mobility Alliance. While she calls herself a reluctant planner, planning has been the full frontal focus of her career as she has tugged and wrestled with issues of how to make our country better, more sustainable and more equitable.   Eve: [00:29:20] Harriet believes good transportation policy is good land use policy. We can't fix up transportation woes without addressing the root of the problem. Development patterns that have allowed auto-mobility to be the substitute for proximity. I'm right there with her.   Eve: [00:29:44] You can find out more about impact real estate investing and access the show notes for today's episode at my website evepicker.com. While you're there, sign up for my newsletter to find out more about how to make money in real estate while building better cities.   Eve: [00:30:01] Thank you so much for spending your time with me today. And thank you, Harriet, for sharing your thoughts. We'll talk again soon. But for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.

We know you love horror movies, but do you love US? Like, really love us? If so, get to know us a bit better by listening about the movies that shaped us as horror fans! We REALLY go off track in this one. You have been warned. Please visit us on Facebook at facebook.com/gorgeousbabesofhorror and join our meme posting group! Twitter: @gorgeousBOH Instagram: @gorgeousbabesofhorror gorgeousbabesofhorror@gmail.com for insults and suggestions! Donate to our Patreon! patreon.com/gorgeousbabesofhorror --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Accredited Investors, an Exciting Syndicate Is Under Way: Click to Learn More Coming from a family of lawyers in Italy, Laura Indolfi was an unlikely candidate to found a tech startup. Yet, her love of engineering and fascination with materials took her to the storied labs at MIT led by Elazer Edelman and Bob Langer. Her startup, PanTher Therapeutics is using off-the-shelf cancer drugs and biomaterials to create a new way to treat cancers that are really hard to treat such as pancreatic cancer, Laura’s first target. Don’t miss this lively interview with a stellar founder. Highlights include: Laura Indolfi Bio How Laura Indolfi Decided She Wanted to Be a Materials Engineer Laura Indolfi Explains Why She Came to the US “Like the first six months I was thinking of probably I will go back to Italy and probably join my family into the law firm. But once you pass that moment and you get adjusted to the space then it was much better.” The Founding Story of PanTher Therapeutics Business Mentors Have Been Very Helpful Could MIT’s Process for Licensing Technology from the Institute’s Labs Be Improved? What PanTher Is Doing and Why It Matters “You end up with 12 times the cancer-killing drug on the tumor as you would get from intravenous application of the same drug.” “We are planning to submit our final application to them [the FDA] beginning of next year, January 2019. That will allow us to start enrolling patients the first quarter of 2019.” “The things that makes me as the CEO of the company very excited is the engagement from the clinical community. We had a partnership with clinical oncologists that they are operating on these patients, coming up to Boston to operate on the pigs.” Sal Daher Reads a Review from a Listener and Asks for Your Review on iTunes Laura’s Indolfi Advice on Fundraising A Major Change at PanTher and What Drove It Laura Indolfi’s Parting Thoughts Arrigo Bodda, This Is for You

He Will Come to Us Like the Rain