Like Trees Walking

Tim Keller founded Redeemer Presbyterian Church in NYC in 1989. Over the course of his quarter century as its pastor the church and Keller - unapologetically classical in its theology - rose to a place of influence in the midst of Manhattan. Dave reflects on his engagement with Keller and why he was so influential. In the second half the tables are turned from an learner episode where Mike quizzed Dave on Billy Joel's original "We Didn't Start the Fire" and now it is Mike being quizzed on Fall Out Boy's updated version. Warning, the song is terrible and this part of the show is far too long.

Augustine? Anselm? Aquinas? Aquaman? Who is the GOAT? Who is in the top five theologians of all-time according to this highly objective and scientific ranking process? Also, the real story behind the lost live podcast is finally told.

As the early church wrestled with questions regarding the relationship of God and Jesus and the subsequent implications for the relationship between God and humanity some answers were deemed heretical. We discuss the differences between heresy and orthodoxy. It's finally time to tell the story of what happened to the recording of the 372 Pages and LTW Live Podcast.

The polls are in and things are not looking up for Christianity in America. Why? Is this good? Bad? Where are we? Dave offers his theories and then Mike quizzes Dave on real or fanfic related to the Screwtape Letters.

Ok, stuff sure looks like it was designed, but is it really? Richard Dawkins or Sir William Paley? Goldilocks universe or a simulation? Who knows? We do! Plus we share some of our favorite "tunes" that are just so fine.

The year was 2008 (or 2009?) Pastor Dave turned in a paper defending the compatibility of Christianity with the death penalty in certain limited circumstances contra his professor the esteemed Christian ethicist Nancy Duff. Dave explains why he was right and then he and Mike sharpen Dave's knives that were even duller than his arguments.

Who knows Mike better: Amazon or his step-mother? The answer isn't so simple and how does the vast amount of information we produce compare to the kind of knowledge that God has of us? And finally, what can a chat with an AI bot tell us about the meaning of life?

Beloved astrophysicist and Twitter gadfly Neil Degrasse Tyson said that "the good thing about science is that it is true whether you believe it or not." This didn't sit well with America's sassiest meat product who clapped back "log off bro." The guys share their reflections on who got the better in what turned out to be a clash of intellectual titans. In the end Mike shares a great tip for trying out a new restaurant without breaking the bank (spoiler alert: it's not dine and dash)

"Who Killed Mars Hill?" — is the provocative title of Christianity Today's hugely successful podcast entitled The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. Spoiler alert, we all did! Seriously, CT's audio autopsy of one Seattle megachurch brings together so much what has animated a certain flavor of American Protestantism over the last few decades. It occasioned some thoughts from Pastor Dave and Mike had literally never heard anything about this church and its controversial pastor. At the end they share a couple podcast recommendations.

The year was 2006 when Pastor Dave first encountered the Enneagram of Personality. Over the years he's seen it increase in prominence and he's heard various origin stories, tracing it all the way back to the Desert Fathers of the early church. The guys assess these claims and its value. For a helpful article read this article entitled “Can We Do Better Than the Enneagram?” from Christianity Today.

We didn't choose to be born, nor from the Christian perspective did we choose to be born in sin. Yet, we are told that we need a Savior to deliver us and to place our trust in him. How is this fair? How does this make sense? Is an Aldi breakfast cookie a cracker? Listen to hear these answers and more.

We all know her (or do we?). We all hate her (but should we?). Pastor Dave wants to talk about Karen. When does a joke about a certain "type" of person become a blanket cover for a certain kind of misogyny? Should that bother us? Should Dave eat whatever it is Mike is going to feed him? Find out on this episode of Like Trees Walking. (Also, was Kate from John & Kate Plus 8 the ür-Karen - even though she is a Kate?)

In the early 2010s Bo Burnham released a song “From God's Perspective.” It is bad and takes us back to those heady days when the star of the New Atheists was starting to fade. This song helps us understand why. Also, lest we be accused of having a tin-ear toward comedy, we share our reactions to Rolling Stone's list of the Top 20 Stand Up Comedians of All Time.

John McWhorter has been writing on the rise of the new antiracism at his Substack. He compares it to a religion but in the most facile ways possible that reveal more about his own impoverished understanding of faith and less about why this approach to race in America is wrong. Pastor Dave shares a recent epiphany he had regarding the newest Star Wars trilogy.

You can purchase Thomas' book from Amazon or Barnes and Noble. He currently works as a Senior Fellow for the Council on Criminal Justice.

After more than a year of our lives being upended by a global pandemic we've gotten used to a certain type of figure saying that they're just going to follow the science. While this is better than sticking one's head in the sand or ignoring medical science, it is also insufficient for the significant social and political interests that need to be weighed. Also, what does Mike think about punching down vs. punching up in comedy.

Following George Floyd's murder millions of people took to the streets to protest this injustice. Additionally there were those who used this as a pretext for rioting, stealing, and violent mayhem. When this behavior was decried, some pointing to Jesus himself as the sanctifier of riots. This issue hit very close to home (literally) for the guys. Also, Dave shares a story of when he observed a hockey riot breaking out.

The guys discuss the limits of human knowledge and what exactly an "edgelord" is.

Godwin's Law states: "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." Can we learn anything to expand our repertoire beyond these tired analogies. Read this article from Slate in 2011: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2011/10/hank-williams-jr-firing-who-was-the-rhetorical-worst-person-in-history-before-hitler.html

"We are more divided than ever" goes the cliche, which like most cliches has some truth to it. When our houses, friendships, families and bowling leagues are divided how can be build bridges and be in relationship? Also, we need to talk about sweating.

2020-21 have stunk. Paul encourages Christians to think about good things. These are some of the things Mike and Dave are thinking about. Mike makes Dave eat seaweed paper.

Lizard people, jet fuel melting steel beams, crisis actors, JFK blown away what else do we have to say? Quite a bit actually.

Pastor Dave read Ruth Graham's NYT piece following the end of Carl Lentz's tenure at Hillsong NYC and thought "there but for the grace of God go I." The guys talk about entitlement, alienation, and accountability in the church.

Michael J Nelson isn't on social media at all. Pastor Dave uses his like an addict. Which is healthier? You decide!

The year was 2006, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins were topping the bestseller lists denouncing religion. Pastafarianism was the fastest growing religion on Facebook. Fast forward almost 15 years and New Atheism is old. Where did it go? Who won? Do we even know what we're talking about.

Before getting his PhD from Harvard, Peter Moskos served as a cop in the Eastern District of Baltimore. Moskos has written extensively on issues related to policing, crime, prisons, and reform. You can find his work at copinthehood.com and buy his books Cop In the Hood and In Defense of Flogging on Amazon.com Here we talk about issues related to policing that have arisen since the killing of George Floyd and broader political and ideological challenges in this particular moment.

Chris Arnade was a quant on Wall Street before growing disillusioned with his "front row" life and started visited neighborhoods where people told him not to go. What he found there changed his way of understanding the world, including the role of faith in providing Americans of all stripes with a sense of dignity. It also challenged his confident, though not obnoxious, atheism. His collection of photos and reflections on what he saw and experienced in his travels and what it taught him about class, race, religion, and politics in America are found in his book Dignity, available wherever fine books are sold. https://www.amazon.com/Dignity-Seeking-Respect-Back-America/dp/0525534733

We wanted to record an episode about this, but felt like this captured all that we could say at this particular moment that was worth saying.

You can find Jason and his work at reclaimedleader.com

When Amy went into pre-term labor with her first child her doctor prescribed bed rest for 6 weeks. For those long weeks Amy had to stay in bed more than 23 hours a day. How did she survive? What helped? What didn't? Where was God? What can that teach us about making it through the pandemic?

With the world cowering before COVID-19 Gal Gadot thought, "what can I do to help?" The answer she came up with to have a bunch of celebrities sing John Lennon's Imagine. Imagine has an undeserved place in the musical cannon as inspirational and unifying. The only way it can truly unite us is in our hatred of it and its absurd message.

Tod Bolsinger is an expert on leadership and adaptive change in the church. In 2015 he published a book called Canoeing The Mountains that used the Lewis and Clark expedition as a metaphor for the changing realities of church leadership and Christian discipleship in a post-Christendom era. You can buy his book wherever fine books are sold or get free resources from Fuller about using the book with your church/organization by texting "canoeing" to 66866.

The guys have a wide ranging discussion about the spread of COVID-19, social distancing, how Asian countries have responded, the church's responsibility in the midst of crises, the problem of evil, human agency, and the culpability of the CCP. Read some of Lyman's work on COVID-19: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/13/christianity-epidemics-2000-years-should-i-still-go-to-church-coronavirus/ https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/the-church-must-be-a-refuge-in-the-midst-of-fear https://docs.google.com/document/d/13bKFzl1PvObLlRXTx9pIPMOyBWiGkKhHdXu_iWXUqjM/preview

Who is your hero? Do you have one? What makes a hero? The boys stop and mull this over before sharing the name and story of one of their own heroes, neither of which wears or wore a cape.

Former Dallas police officer Amber Guyger murdered Botham Jean in his apartment in a terrible tragedy. At her sentencing Jean's brother offered forgiveness and the moment went viral which prompted a backlash against this act. Was it right for him forgive? What's the relationship between justice and forgiveness? Will Dave like what tinned-fish Mike serves him today? Listen to find out.

Is there literally no reason to believe in God? Is it all just a "God of the gaps" scenario and basically an appeal to ignorance and a constant losing rearguard action. You can imagine Mike and Dave don't think so. Hear why in this episode.

Mike did not like the movie. Dave kinda did, but also can't keep the plot straight.

You can donate money to the Ace in the City Center of Belonging here: https://www.facebook.com/donate/281293802790920/987495071649295/ or here: https://www.aceinthecity.org/center-of-belonging/#donate-cob The article on Millennials leaving the church can be found here: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/millennials-are-leaving-religion-and-not-coming-back/ Data on religious switching can be found here: https://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/ On Young Adults leaving church and the reasons they do look here: https://lifewayresearch.com/2019/01/15/most-teenagers-drop-out-of-church-as-young-adults/

We're looking to raise $1000 toward Ace in the City's Center of Belonging which will collaboratively cultivate a physical space that addresses the foundational life supports and services crucial toward healthy living, including:Full-Choice Food Shelf, Food for Life Classes, Youth Development/Drop-In Childcare, Housing Stability, Addiction Recovery, and Vocational Training. Please end your contribution in a 9 (for episode 9) so it counts toward out total. You can see the movie with us December 28th if you're in the Twin Cities and donate at least $500. Follow these thinks to give: https://www.facebook.com/donate/281293802790920/ or https://aceinthecity.org/center-of-belonging/

October 25, 2019 Kanye West released "JESUS IS KING" and many take have ensued. Mike is blissfully ignorant of it all, while Dave some reflections on the record itself as well as how one should react when a global icon has his own "come to Jesus moment."

Is it ethical to have children in the midst of the climate crisis? How can we bring kids into a world on fire? These are increasingly common questions and Dave and Mike reflect on a Christian attitude toward children. They conclude *spoiler alert* actually kids are good.

For those following along at home here's the timing on the movie clips (free to stream on Netflix): Clip #1: IN 24:58//OUT 25:09 Clip #2: IN 25:59// OUT 26:45 Clip #3: IN 32:44//OUT 34:43 Clip #4 IN 38:05//OUT 39:21 Clip #5: IN 58:25//OUT 59:53 Clip #6 IN 1:33:56//OUT 1:34:05 Clip #7 IN 1:35:02//OUT 1:35:41

See 372 Pages & LTW live, September 18 at Sisyphus Brewing in Minneapolis. Click this link for tickets: https://dojour.us/e/12174-372-pages-well-never-get-back-like-trees-walking-live?fbclid=IwAR1RMy7qYDFqDHdZXbIwH8TyvZERwANuYrNs36kYuzpfOiAGYHwNlfq0jl0

The Book of Revelation talks about the walls that will surround the New Jerusalem. Does that mean the US should build a gigantic wall at our southern border? This raises questions about how we bring Scripture to bear in shaping our imaginations regarding public policy. How can we do better than simply playing "bible darts"?

Mike has mused for a long time on what it would mean for the Christian faith if there were aliens. Dave hasn't and is more of a ghost guy than an alien guy. Dave shares his own encounter with a famous person.

Dave and Mike tackle the difficulty of defining religion and differentiating it from other things. Dave also shares a story of acting out a scene from Deuce Bigalow with one of the actors involved.

David Benatar agrees with George Bailey as he stood on the bridge saying "I wish I had never been born." Benatar does George one-better and wishes that no sentient life had ever existed because existence is beyond terrible. You can read the article here: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/the-case-for-not-being-born Tinned fish gets eaten.

Candidate X (*cough* Mayor Pete) is very articulate in talking about the importance of his religious faith for their political vision for the country. Should you believe that person? Look at their tax returns! (Unless they're the President and won't release them.) Dave names and shames, and names and praises the candidates who are merely giving faith lip service, and those who are willing to put their money where their mouths are. Mike went back to his boyhood home and was very disturbed by his own version of believing that Sinbad was in a movie called "Shazaam."

You can read the NYT's article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/opinion/-philosophy-god-omniscience.html

Serene Jones is the president of Union Theological Seminary. She also doesn't believe in a 'literal' resurrection and finds the virgin birth 'bizarre.' But love is stronger than life and death or something like that. Read the article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/opinion/sunday/christian-easter-serene-jones.html