Podcasts about shaun so

INTRODUCTION:Shaun Coffey is the co-author of the stigma-breaking book, “Boys Do Cry.” A collection of true stories by men who overcame adversity and gender conformity surrounding their mental health and emotions. He shares his life experiences in hopes that it reaches someone who needs to harness their self-worth and overcome obstacles standing in the way of their truth.He currently holds a Recovery Support Worker Certificate in the state of New Hampshire and works as a case manager for a transitional housing program for veterans experiencing homelessness. He graduated from the same program in 2014, he states that “Helping others reach their potential when they sometimes can't see it” is the most rewarding and inspiring thing to watch.” It is this passion that led him to create talks and open up conversation and communication with audiences all over New England. He is a father to a 9-year old daughter, an ultramarathon runner, and a music enthusiast. He is a man with a mission: raising awareness and bringing to light just how amazing life can be if you're courageous enough to take the first step. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):·      The Dangers Of Toxic Masculinity ·      Growing Up With An Abusive Dad·      Boot Camp In The Marines & Going AWOL·      Memories Of Drug Experimentation ·      Sobriety Vs. Recovery·      Harm Reduction Defined·      How Shaun Became Homeless·      How Shaun Escaped Death·      Veteran's Concerns & Benefits CONNECT WITH SHAUN:Website & Speaking Engagements: https://www.shauncoffey.comBooks: (BOYS DO CRY) https://amzn.to/3vCcKS2         *Book Royalties Donated TO - (CALM)* https://thecalmzone.netEmail: Info@ShaunCoffey.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/shauncoffeyspeaksInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/willows_runner/DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)       -https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370       -TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs SDJ MEMBERSHIP (FULL EPISODES):·      $2.99 per month.·      Donate any amount for 30 days of access.·      $25 per year.https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/membership-account/membership-levels/ TRANSCRIPT:[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to. And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right. At the end of the day, my name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world. As we dig into topics that are too risky for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your.There was nothing on the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: my guest today is Shaun Coffey. And I'm super excited to be talking to this man because he is also a military veteran like I am, and it is my first time having a fellow vet. On the show. Now he co-authored a book called boys do cry. The front cover is really stimulating because it actually says boys don't cry and then don't, it's crossed off.And then it says to do, because [00:01:00] this book is all about breaking the stereotype and challenging the stereotype about what men are and are not allowed to do in terms of their emotions. With a particular focus on mental health. So in this episode, we talk about his abusive dad. He was also homeless. Like I was, he barely escaped death as well.Like I did, he has his own strong history of drug use and everything like that. And now Sean is a recovery support worker in the state of New Hampshire and he, is helping other veterans in particular come up in life. Get a handle on drugs and become stable and everything like that. And I really found this was a very cool conversation and it was really, really, really, really nice to sit down with someone who also served in the armed forces. Shaun, thank you so very much for coming on the show today. I am so glad that we were able to connect. [00:02:00] How are you feeling, man? Shaun: I'm good. I'm really good. I'm glad that we were able to get connect on broad match. De'Vannon: Yeah, it is a, a wonderful, wonderful website. I think Alex and Phillipa has done.That's their job and and yeah, I look forward to it and I haven't ever had a chance to talk to anybody who has military experience, like I have to. So we're going to be talking a lot about that today. And so give us an overview of your history, just a brief overview, because we're going to get super granular and detailed with it here in just a minute.And tell us just some highlights of your background and your successes and failures. Shaun: I grew up in a single parent household with my dad. It was, there was a bunch of child abuse, a lot of a lot of trauma surrounding that, you know, that period of time went into the military and you know, you and I spoke before.So we'll, [00:03:00] we'll get into that later too. I'm sure. But you know, the whole, the discharge scenario and just kind of. How that all played out. And then you know, my father passing drugs and just, you know, ad type of behavior there and then kind of like a aha moment and steadily climbing the stairs, getting, getting to where I am now.So I, that's a pretty, De'Vannon: and then we're going to be talking about your contribution to the, to the, to through your book. And you are also a certified peer recovery support worker and a speaker. Shaun: Yeah. We're a recovery support worker. And also do a little bit of speaking on this stuff De'Vannon: right in your website.And everything's going to go in this show knows because your website gives a lot of a good breakdown of the. Have you have your topics speaking [00:04:00] because you do one series or one presentation called addiction to recovery. And another one is called courage required. And I think that it's great. I love anything that's organized direct to the point and also thorough at the same time.And it looks like that that you'd be quite a great speaker. Now, this book is called, boys do cry. I love the cover. It's like bright summer orange. And it, at first it looks like it says, boys don't cry. Then there's a line across don't. And then it says do instead. And this book is a compilation of stories from 12 men who were being really authentic and transparent.I love the fact that all the book royalties go to two nonprofit agencies as well, which is super fantastic. And I think that there's a quote from the beginning of the book that I'm going to read by Jane Evans, who is an internationally renowned childhood trauma [00:05:00] parenting and anxiety expert. I think her quote really sums up the heart of the reason why Michelle, the overall author, a composer of this book and author created it.And in Jane Evans says that raising boys to hide their feelings, increases their sense of overwhelming loneliness. Emotions are gender free. Everyone feels every feeling it's part of being human. Tell me what you think about that quote.Shaun: I think when it comes down to it, everybody does feel the same emotions. It's the interpreter that you know, may cause conflict or may I guess shade, the areas of conversation with. Breakdowns happen. You know, all through that book is, like you said, it's 12 men who, who basically, you know, looked at adverse Citi or looked at you know, gender norms, or [00:06:00] I guess if you break it down.So it's like, you know, you get into a group of guy friends and you know, somebody is sensitive or somebody, you know, crying about a girlfriend or something, and it's immediately like in a bitch or like, oh, stop being a girl or, you know, and all this stuff. And so, I mean, even when you're, you know, you're young, you're bred to be this macho type of person, like men are hunter gatherers, they go start the fires they meet and they do all these things.So that, you know, it becomes. Not okay to do those things. And what this book embodies is 12 men who have literally made it okay. To do these things in their own, you know, family system or in their own bubble and were accepted. And so you know, like in, in my situation you couldn't show emotion in the house.So I'm 35 years old sitting in front of the therapist and I can identify my own emotions because you know, like [00:07:00] just the way that the, I guess how that all De'Vannon: right. And I like how she takes the gender out of feelings. You said feelings are genderless. I think that we start teaching our children that it will make for a much better world absolutely expectations of people that really shouldn't be there.And so. So basically you've come full circle. We're going to talk about, you know, you know, you were homeless you've you had trouble in the military, you had the abusive household, and now you have channel that into public speaking. Now you're an author and and also the certified addiction recovery work that you do too.And so basically the, this trauma has become quite triumphant for you, and now you're using this to help people. And so the point of this interview is to use your transparency, to help other people out there, especially since you're a big, strong masculine man, willing to go here [00:08:00] with your emotions, I think is really going to connect with a lot of people in the, in the Britain down some barriers that really need to be broken down now.Go ahead. Sogetting an amen from the choir. Y'all hallelujah. And now in your book, you write that a childhood for you was like like a dream where you were drowning and struggling for air. Not a lot of people would define their childhood that way. And so, and you write that your dad was abusive in all ways. So for us specifically, in what ways he was abusiveShaun: as far back as I can remember. I can tell you the things that I've I found out later that will help people, I guess, put the pieces together. But my dad was had [00:09:00] affective, which is kind of like a schizophrenia was a bipolar addition to so there's he's he has that going on before manic, depressed, you know, like he was very manic at times.So a lot of the time I would be being physically beaten and within 10 minutes after that he would flip the switch and just be this most loving, you know, airing dad. And I'm sitting there kind of being like, you know, you're saying you love me, but I'm like, you're this, the person that's close to them is doing these things.So twisted right from the start. So it was a lot of physical abuse, but then you're not good enough. You'll never amount to anything. So we started to add in the emotional that, that's what I mean about kind of all forms physically, emotionally. There wasn't any ever like sexual trauma but like there, there was just all forms and with him, nothing was really off limits.I mean, like I. Closed fist punch that would happen. I mean, I can remember times [00:10:00]happening at dinner. So there was no, like, he was like a match, you know, and you had to be careful because you don't know when it was going to get so that it was all, that's why I say it felt like I was wondering because or, you know, it felt like that you never knew what was going to, what was going to happen.It was always just pressing. De'Vannon: Right? Well, I'm so sorry that that happened to you, man. And cause back and forth, you know, hot and cold, good and bad, you know, could fuck up. Anybody's mind. It reminds me. My dad, when I was reading this, I was thinking about like my dad tube, because he was a, he was a total bitch, you know, to us growing up.And like you write in your book, you know, your dad wasn't all bad. There was, you know, he was there for you at times as well. And I would say the same things about mine, but that still doesn't excuse the bullshit. And so there were times, and I don't really remember what I did. [00:11:00] So, so terrible. Like one time, I don't know, like it was the same way.I didn't know what would set him off what I would get like a whipping for it in the south, they take off belts and then they beat the shit out of you. Like one time he, he, with me so bad, I had like swollen webs all the way down. Like my wrist, all the way to almost like the crease of my arm and in my grandmother had to put like cold towels on my arms to get to, to try to stop the swelling now.That's way past chastisement and whatever that's supposed to be. And that's just straight up physical fucking abuse in the story. And you know, he yelled and screamed and hollered. He would yell at me in front of my whole school gymnasium and stuff. It was a whole hot mess. And it's very curious, you know, we both have these abusive households and we both ended up in the military, but it happens a lot.You know, I was an air force recruiter for three years and people come to the, to the military as a form of [00:12:00] escape. Like every day, you know, they're walking into the, Shaun: I felt like I had like my family is police and military. So there was a sense of me feeling like that was a route for me. Right. So my dad was in the air force as well.He was we, I was born in the baby. I forget the name of it, but Madigan army medical center in wash. So he, he had that, this mentality, like where literally I had gloves I would clean my room to go to gloves. Like no bullshit. I would clean my room to gloves. And like, if. Ford's put in the wrong spot.He would Jack my room up really, really bad. I can remember one time being probably 11 years old. I thought I was going to be smart and hide some stuff in the closet. And then I had a trundle bed with a pullout drawer and I stuffed a bunch of stuff in there, but he came up and took that out in the middle of the room, picked up a double size white box, dumped that in the middle of the room, all the drawers, all the [00:13:00] clothes and the hangers, all that was in the middle.And I was made the duke to clean it. I got like in a butter and jelly sandwich and something you know, but I stayed in there until I, until I was done. And it was like, I don't want to say like psychological warfare, but like, that's the type of stuff that he used on me all the time. You know, it was just like mycological games.Like you're going to do what I say when I say how I say it. And if you don't like. The keeper of your consequences, you know, it was just a battle like that all the time. And you also wrote just to keep De'Vannon: it in the vein of the psychological games, you were saying you would go visit your mom and then while you were there, he would like call you and say, nice, try to get you to come back.Shaun: Yeah. Like, like he would make up like, oh, I'm going to go over here. I'm like, I don't know this person specifically, because like, that was, you know, it was a long time ago. I for, for the time that I was like five to like 21, [00:14:00] I may have seen for a total of like four or five months. In that whole period of time, you know?But my dad would do these things where he would send me out there and I'd be out there for like a week and I'd get a phone call and he'd be like, how are you doing? You know he would basically be telling me how awesome it was back at home and what I was missing or what he was going to do. And would make me basically just hang the phone up and look at my mom and say like, mom, I want to go home.You know, and I'm supposed to be there for a whole summer and I don't make it. So you know, I guess what it boiled down to is that he was super codependent on me even as like young. But I found out this and honestly like super, honestly like only a year ago that my dad was like, my dad was like a really bad dude.Like he did stuff to my mom and, and, and. Surrounding the divorce and stuff. And my mom kept it from me for the longest you wanted me to not have to, you know? And so [00:15:00] you know, I'm 42 and just, we just literally had a conversation maybe three months ago blew my mind and I believe my dad just haven't gotten.A lot of people say like you know, I'm sorry you had to endure that. Or, or what? And I feel like I have so much trauma that it becomes like, would it, you know, it's just another thing where, you know, I'm in therapy now with the same guy for like three years. And he's like, no, it's not just another, you know, just another thing, but I call it like a trauma back.Right. And so like, if you've grown up or you've had a lot of trauma being in the military, probably there's, you know, significant almost, but like per se, like something happens and then you're like, damn, this hurts. You get the PTSD and all that stuff. But when this stuff happens on a daily basis and a lot, you just keep putting it in your overfill on that backpack.And you got like the Hansel and Gretel, like all of it's following you and you have to turn around and pick it back up. Like it, it gets to a point where. So that [00:16:00] normal people are like, that's fucked up. And then you're just like, eh, you know, it's just another thing. So but yeah, he was, he was psychologically just like it, it jacked me up a lot.I mean I, I was getting picked on at the bus stop and there's an, our bay window looked across the street to the bus stop where we lived. And my dad's telling me, you're getting picked on out the window and I got pushed and I I'm across the street, go to the door and I go to open the minutes locked and I knock on the door.He like, give me your backpack. Okay. Here's my backpack. He's like, you're going to go walk across the street and you're going to kick the shit out of that kid. Or you're not coming back in here. Go stand up for your, you know, like stop being a pussy pretty much. So from a 10, 11 year old, you know, like that to a 10 or 11, you know, putting those expectations on, on me, but it was like, You're a bitch, go, go across the street and handle it.And that was the first time I really listened to him. And I walked across the street and I told the kid to put his backpack down and I saw my father and I just went nuts and I beat the shit out of him. [00:17:00] And, you know, 15, 16 years later, I see the guy after all the, you know, we can get into that. But like, I see him, I'm like, Hey man, how you doing, man?You know, just obviously it was over, but like that's the kind of person he was like, you go, go handle that and then come back and I'll let you back. De'Vannon: Well, I'm so glad you made it back, you know, in the car that day,your mother wasn't there for. Four months in between five and 21. Was it because of what your dad was doing to her or was it for some other reasons too? Shaun: Like, yeah, like I said before, I didn't really know this, but like up until I just recently had a conversation with her, but like he he would, he would just he's he was bad, you know what I mean?Like he, it was just stuff that he would do. Things that he would say phone calls. I can say real quick. I'm not sure how old I was. Maybe [00:18:00] it was before I was six, but he picked me for visitation and basically kidnapped me, drove me from Washington to Oregon. We went to a Bible revival, if you can picture that.But it was like this huge revival in this huge campground. And my stepdad and my mom found me and we, they showed up to the campground was a sheriff and the sheriff was like, Hey man, No. Or you had to take it back. I guess my mom said this happened twice, but but yeah, he just was a bad dude and like, he would make her life hell when I was there, it was this poaching.My mom said she had to come to a point where she was like, I have to do this, you know, for, for you. Because how much would it have been if we continued that pattern of back and forth, back and forth. And I've said this on podcasts before, but it's almost like this is mom. This is that. And you're going.So when I'm with my dad, I had to hate my mom. When I'm with my [00:19:00] mom, I don't have to hate my dad, but I don't really, you know, I didn't really talk about just because of what was going on. So it was this big push and pull and my mom just cited, like rather than put my son through that you know, it was the way it was.And I found out later that a lot of it, majority of it was just how my dad was really, you know you know, sometimes people would hold grudges against their parents, but for me, it's like I did for a really long time. And then that's how we had that conversation because I said, I hold this grudge, this and my mom broke down.And the first time I heard my mom really break down like that. And like, it got to me, you know, and, and I understood at that point through our conversation, why she did what she did and she did it to protect I have a ten-year-old daughter and I would do anything what I mean. So I understood it on a parental level, but I also understood it on a personal level, which we kind of, there was a lot of years that we like in that moment when, when we were talking, [00:20:00] I understood, like I was hating for reasons that.You know this entire time she's doing this because of this or she's whatever else. But it was literally because my dad would make it impossible. De'Vannon: Well, I'm happy you were able to get reconciliation with her. And I can't imagine that that would have been for her to make the tough call. Shaun: I that's where I had to go in that whole conversation.I had to just go for, like, what, how was she feeling and use empathy? Like where was she gonna lean in and how was it affecting, people do what they do because they feel it's probably, you know, in her situation it was probably the best thing for both of them. So I, she made the decision because she believed in it.It doesn't mean that I have to understand it at the timenow I'm totally okay with it. And, and, my dad's been. He's passed away since 2001.[00:21:00] So each year I feel like I get better. Like I'm healing, I'm letting stuff go. I'm able to foster and build a relationship with my mom. De'Vannon: So, so, so the reconcile, the reconciliation that you achieved with your mother is important.Do you feel like that that is because your dad died or is it because of the counseling, the therapy you've been going through? What put that sort of forgiveness and understanding in YouTube, be able to step into her perspective? Shaun: I'm gonna, I'm gonna solely put that on my therapists, on my therapist.She'll, we've gone through a lot of, a lot of, information with, just, you know, like. Going through all the years, talking about different scenarios, learning why and how they happened. , I'm also in school right now for a associates in human services. So I'm taking my own psychology classes and I work in a mental health and substance fields.So [00:22:00] if, if you culminate all that together, it's like I learned something from school, bring it home, take it to therapy. My therapist obviously went to school, so I'm bouncing stuff off him. And then I'm living real-world situations at work or through myself. So a combination of that, like, it that's pretty much where, where it all like know center.De'Vannon: Okay. And then the abuse continued until you join the military. Now you went into the Marines. I think you were 18.Shaun: I had my birthday in boot camp. I think I turned 18 in boot camp or I,yeah, I I'm 13 De'Vannon: weeks. Yeah. So tell, tell me about how, how boot camp was 13 weeks. I did six and a half weeks in the air force and I [00:23:00] went when I was 17 and it was complete hell. And tell me about how it was, you wrote about some hazing that happened, you know? Yeah.Shaun: So like, like this whole thing, like Marine Corps for me was a Supreme act of defiance. Right. My dad was in there go to the recruiter's office and said, okay, I walked in the recruiter's office. I walked up to the air force door and it had the little clock that you put in. It said out to lunch, you know, be back or whatever.So I'm walking down the stairs and I hear a door opens like. What is what's going on? And I looked, and it was a guy in a really sharp uniform. He looked like you at a shift together. And, and as like I had an appointment at the air force office, I'm just going to come back. They're not here. And he's like, why don't you come into my office?And at that moment, I was like, I'm going, I'm doing, fuck my dad, you know, I'm doing, so I signed up, my dad found out about it. He, he, at one [00:24:00] point said, if you join any other service, but the air force I'll break your legs. Like, oh, you know, all that stuff because I was so defiant. And at that point, I'm like, I'm 18.You can't say shit. This is the first thing that you're, that means something, here's my finger, you know, all this stuff. And he just said, you're going to regret it, you know, and whatever else. So, three days after I graduated high school, I was on the bus to, to Marine Corps Depot in San Diego. At the end of the day, I would say that I could do bootcamp a few times over, like, I, I loved it.Like it was it minus the psychological bullshit and all the, like all the yelling and screaming and stuff. , the physicality of it the mark, I really liked to pray deck a lot. Like, you know, I liked a lot of the stuff, so, , I guess we get into it, but I look back on it and I equate the whole entire military service with.My father, right? Because you got a guy who's, doesn't even know you, who just [00:25:00] stands in front of you and now basically tells you you're taking a shower. So you go in, you take a shower and they come in and they tell you how to, and then it's like, you know, you earn the right to take your own shower or like if they were all in your face all the time.And, , I re I remember my third week getting in trouble because a drill instructor was yelling at me and I had a smirk on my face. And it wasn't anything. Why do you think that you're affecting me? Like I come from this life or this, you know, this, so you're doing all this yelling, but you can't even touch, you know, at that point I was like, come on.Like, it didn't bother me a lot, you know? , and yet through military, , my dad actually ends up on top of the, you know, have you heard of the crucible at all? So at the, at the end of the crucible, yeah, at the end of the bootcamp, it's like a 54 mile hump with, eight hours of sleep three days and like two and a half [00:26:00] meals, , to simulate like stress, I guess., so the last part of it is you go up to. Basically like a dirt hill. So you get to the top of its crest and they're like one more and you get to the top of that one, one more. And then all of a sudden you hear like the proud to be an American song. 62 guys just crying. Like this is the last one when my dad was at the top of that.So he actually got to see me graduate and stuff. But like I said, there's moments of that where, you know, I do have like cherished, happy moments, but, , I equated all of that with, with my dad, like the bootcamp scenario. So you come home for 10 days, you go back to school of infantry and, , infantry is just basically a 30 day like you're learning formations and tents and, , you know, and all this stuff.So if you were in a non infantry MOS that 30 days would be shrunk into two. , so right off the bat, I show up, , I don't think that, I wasn't supposed to be infantry. , but somehow I ended up in the chase. So,[00:27:00] , I chose to be a lav crewman. , when we got into the school of inventory, there was some hazing we were told, like we were told to get on the back of, , dudes in the half and tells 300 dudes that we wore pink underwear., I was in a forced March where my feet got kicked out from under me and I hit the, I hit the deck pretty hard. , three other people were feeling exactly how I was feeling. And I was like, SFI was actually three times as bad as bootcamp. Like, I feel like those were the platoon sergeants were like.Drill instructor job. You know what I mean? They were just pissed off with the world and it was, it was a lot worse. So, , at that point we all just kind of made a pact and said, let's well, let's leave. You know, I'm 18 at that point. Stupid. , I mean, I don't think it's stupid, but. If knowing now, , I wouldn't have made the same decision.I don't think, but I chose to leave and go. , and so I came back, coincidentally, the day [00:28:00] we came back on base, the day that my SLI class was graduating. So the XOM, the CEO were like, you think you can just come back from the graduation day and graduate, like, you know, making a big thing of it. But we told them like, this is the scenarios that happen.These are the things that happened. They investigated, but allowed the platoon sergeants to stay in their positions. And, , you know, they were telling us you're going to get a bad conduct. Discharge. You'll never be, oh, like all these crazy things. They're like, but we're giving you Liberty. I was like, well, if you give me Liberty, I'm going to let go.And for the people that you leave on Friday, you come back on Sunday. That's like your Liberty time. So it's like a weekend off in civilian. , so I don't, I told them like, if you give me Liberty, like I'm just going to leave. So I left, I contacted my dad the second, , I came back and when I came back, the, the JAG added my, , well, the court martial added my Liberty time into [00:29:00] mine, into my AWOL, which pushed me as a visitor.So they said, we're going to put you in a legal platoon. , you're going to forfeit your rankand 45 days in the brig. , so I did the court trial, , 30 days cause I got out 15 days. Good behavior. , the forfeiture of pay never happened. I got all like $3,600 or something and they're on production number app. And I never knew why bill. I think we were talking about on the phone, during the pre-interview, but, , there was a pack in some of my dad's stuff, and I had found that he went to congressmen and he actually made it up to the commandant of the Marine Corps and he basically made a false, so my bad conduct discharge earned into a general goal or a general under honorable conditions.And my rank reduction never went through in my reduction in pain. So that's, that's, you know, pretty much I know [00:30:00] that was a long, long section, but that's pretty much the, the military as a whole. My military life. De'Vannon: No, thank you for the explanation, man. , the conduct of discharge can be a huge difference for you, you know, in life.That's a big, Shaun: you know, about this because your recruiter, but the way that the military or the way that the Marine quarter gave, gave me the finger when I left was they gave me a general under honor, but they said having Ari for, for, for the rest of your life, I couldn't get back in. And hindsight's 2020, and this is I think, important to know, but I spent the next 12 years, four or five times a year on packing them, , an army recruiter, air force recruiter, trying to find out when regs changed going through my red file., the Marine Corps actually made me do IRR after they discharged me from the military. So I spent four years in IRR. , After I had [00:31:00] gotten removed from the military with labels. That was kind of weird individual. I'm sorry. So basically you do, when you, in the Marine Corps, you do four years active in four years, inactive that way, if something happens and they need to reactivate you, you know, they, they can, but it seemed odd to me that they wanted me to do, , the individual ready reserve because I just was out of the military after, you know, a dessert or at a certain whatever.So, , yeah, it was, it's just, it was really weird. , but you know, I got out of the military spend a little bit of time in California. My dad came to visit out in California and, , he was so codependent that I actually ended up moving my stuff and driving back probably four or five months after I got.De'Vannon: Well, that's a good, like, you love your dad. I can hit tell. Now I, I want to know, , about this, the military prison, that brigade. Now, when you say you were in jail [00:32:00] for what was supposed to be 45 days, it sounded like you said you served 1530s. Is it like, cause I've been arrested like three times and I've been to like city jail, county jail.I'm wondering the, like the same. I don't know if you've been to like a regular jail before. Shaun: I got, I got messed around with more in, in like my jail barracks than I did in my bootcamp air. Like I got shaving cream and boots. That was the first time that I got my sheets tied for, and for people that don't know, they sold your cheap half and they tie it into the rack underneath so that when you go to put your feet in, you slide your feet right through sheets and you have those for a few days.So now you're sleeping through sheets that have two holes in them, you know? So, , but yeah, I got messed with more, I would say I've never been to a, a regular, you know, like a, either a city jail or prison federal. And I mean, I've been to them, , then in them, but never been, you know, inside[00:33:00] one. So that was my first experience and I, and I, , It was not that, you know, , we did PT in the morning., we went out on a work and party afterwards, so we would go to like certain sections of the baits and like we'd whack, like some of the areas or, you know, we were like, , prison landscape is what I did now. That was, that was my job. So they told me at any point, you know, at any point during your 30 days, if you want to go back reinstate and finish out your, your service, you tell your CEO and, and go and do it.But at that point I had such a bad taste in my mouth about how they treated the, you know, that type of hazing stuff and, and, , you know, treated people in general because they told us once we can get out of bootcamp, we'd be retreated with the respect of the, of a Marine. , and then we go to get into our, , unit and it's like, you guys are still shit.And like, , after dealing with that for three. Was that like [00:34:00] there, I didn't see a point. , and, , I learned at that point that I was equating the military with my father and that was going to be a problem moving forward. So I did try to go through a psych situation and try to get removed for psych reasons., but that didn't work out. So that's why the, De'Vannon: well, good job identifying that connection between the, your father in the military and making, taking the steps to make changes. Now, speaking of your dad, I want to go to a very moving scene. You, you talked about the, you got a phone calls, , your dad hadn't been doing well.He had like, , like fibrosis of his lungs and, , and you got a phone call saying you need to take a flight, hurry home. , walk us through from the time you got that phone call until, , Until the time he actually died. And cause the last words that you said to him where something like, , he asked you how you were doing, you were like, well, I'm good that I'll be there soon.You said, I want, I want you to know that I love you. I understand you did your best and it was good [00:35:00] enough. I forgive you. , but to walk us through from the time that you got that phone call saying, Hey, you need to get home until you told him that Shaun: the night, the night it happened, , I got five phone calls.So if I want to woke up the night before, you know, instead of like nine o'clock in the morning, if I woke up overnight, I have maybe made it there. , but for whatever reason, I was just like, probably somebody needs a ride or you know, something like that. , so nine o'clock in the morning I get to college, his best friend says, Hey, , your dad's not doing so good.And you need to think about. The, , you know, coming home. So I was like, okay. I had my girlfriend at the time, drive me to the airport. I'm going through every terminal, finding the fastest flight there. , and we had, you know, the means to just pay for a ticket, like right at the, at the counter, at that corner.So, , as I'm getting the ticket, he calls back again and says, your dad's awake.[00:36:00] Here he hands him the phone and my dad just had labor breathing. And I just remember, this might be the last time that I say anything to him. So I'm going to leave him with, I know he did his best. And like, even though we both know it wasn't good enough to him, he thought it was.And so I didn't want, I just felt the need for myself to be able to let go of. My, you know, my child at that point, I mean, I was 21. , so I kinda just, you know, said, as you said in the, or I, I put in the book and just kind of forgive and let them know that I, you know, I did love him and he did his best and like, you know, , so we hung up the phone, , about 15 minutes passes and the, his friend calls again, and he said, Hey, so don't, don't worry about rushing your ticket.Your dad just asked. , [00:37:00] so it was almost like he was waiting, you know, to, to, to talk to me. And, , after he got to talk to me and hear my voice now is enough for him to like, De'Vannon: well, yeah, again, I'm glad you were able to get that reconciliation. Shaun: Yeah. I mean, it wasn't a very, it wasn't a very long conversation.It wasn't very deep because all he could do was breathe hard. , but you know, he did say, I love you back. And, , you know, I think at the end, when I forgave him, he said, thank you. And, , and that was it. And that, and that's enough for me and I, and that's enough closure for me to move forward because I got to tell him that it's like, no harm, no harm, no foul, or, you know, no hard feelings, however, you know, however you say it, but, you know, I'm going to move on.And then this part really sucks to say, and I say this all the time, but when I got that call that he passed, I literally felt any [00:38:00] relation. , At the same time that I felt shame and guilt and in, you know, feeling bad and, and all kinds of mixed emotions, but I felt you laid it as, I didn't have to live under a thumb anymore.I didn't have to be physically abused. I didn't have to be cold. I was shit. I didn't have to answer to him. I mean, I had already kind of separated myself around like age 20. , I was already just still getting into drugs. So I was, you know, going further and further away. And that was the, the F use in the midst of phone calls.And, and so part of what I've said to him in that moment was because for the previous few years, I kind of was like, I I'm 18, man. Like I lived with you for a little while. Thanks for the, , for helping me through. But like I'm on my own now. And like, I have to answer to you. , and so I really started distancing myself.And kind of felt bad because I knew he was codependent. And, , just knowing like [00:39:00] maybe what he was doing in the time that I was gone. But also the previous 16 years. , that's why I left now. Like I could base my decision off of, , like tangible, solid facts, you know, this stuff I'm not going to live in that type of it's, you know?De'Vannon: Right. Absolutely. They're not speaking of drugs. Tell me, when did you take your first drug? Give me like your kind of drug history, rundown and what types of drugs that you do. Yeah, so Shaun: all of the discussions, , you know, I go into high schools, colleges, , non-profits really anywhere that, you know, does gender awareness and.Art's like this kid asked me if I had ever smoked pot. And I was like, what's that? You know? And, , he was like, oh, it's just like a cigarette. Like makes you feel funny. And like, whatever. I'm like, what kind of, [00:40:00] what does it make you feel like? And he's like, it makes you forget everything, you know, you laugh.And it's like that whole thing that I heard was it makes you forget. And then we went down to his basement. And to this day, you, you know, you're, you, you, when you go back to situations and you're like, I had a fish that was this big, but in reality, it was like this because you can't remember. Well, I still to this day say that it was the biggest joint that I've ever seen in my life.But, , we sat in the bulkhead and smoked the whole thing and I'll be damned if he wasn't right. I didn't feel my dad yelling. I didn't feel scared to go home. Didn't feel pain. I didn't feel hurt. I felt happy. I felt like I was with a firm, like I'm in a good time. And that was something that I'd never endured before, because I, it was just me and my dad.Like I would go out with friends, but. You know, I didn't have a lot of fun because I was always having to come back home to a peace is [00:41:00] needs and stuff. So, , that's the first time and he was right. And then, you know, it turned into, oh, you do this, how's it gonna make me feel? Oh, you're not going to. Okay, cool.So I just started on a tear, you know, weed cocaine, , went into the military. , of course this was after, you know, after the military, but I went in with all the stuff that had happened in the military. Plus my dad dying. , I got a $50,000 life from, from my dad's death. And I ran into the wrong people, , at the very wrong time.And I ended up spending 25 grand on, on meth, , in, in, in Colorado Springs. And, , That's really where it started. I would say probably by the time I was 22, I had no that money and I was just like pounds of it at a time. So, , yeah, that's pretty much where it started. It went [00:42:00] until, , probably 2000 around.I relapsed once and that, and then we went to like 2008. So from right, roughly 2000, 2001 to 2002. , but it was recovery at that point. There's difference between sobriety and recovery. And the premise behind that is if, if, it's called harm reduction. But if you're. If you're a heroin addict and or you use heroin, I don't like the word addict, but if you use heroin and, , you stop using heroin, but you start smoking, , it's the lesser of two evils.So sobriety is, is pretty much what they say, like straight edge, like doing nothing. Recovery would be a harm reduction model where it's like, I'm not doing this, but I am smoking pot. Well, not shooting two grams of heroin a day. Isn't, you know, and smoking pot that, that I would call that a win. So a lot of people use that modality.So I would say that I stayed in recovery for [00:43:00] awhile. , but, but yeah, I, , that was, that was pretty much the end around 2000.De'Vannon: , how did you end up homeless though? Shaun: That all started when I was using drugs. , I started getting in with the wrong crowd. I never really had one place to stay. I stayed with a couple roommates and then I had to get out of that situation. , I was on the street. , I ran into a guy that had parked the camper at a moving a moving storage block.So there was a bunch of 18 wheelers and his little camper was parked behind it. And I would sleep in that. And then the cops came in and said we had to get rid of that. So, , I, that, I was just kind of like a transit and I was just the white kid that had a lot of money. , you know, I could stay in hotels.I could, you know, I just made do with what I had until that money was gone, blew through that, that, that initial 50,000 [00:44:00] in about. De'Vannon: Meth is inexpensive drugs. I know I used to be a dealer and I used Shaun: tobe cliche, but, , and I don't like, I don't like to glorify it is like a pretty large, significant, and part of my, of my past, you know? So, , I, I, you know, there's a point in the book that explains that whole scenario of being in the closet and, , and you know, having to hide from, from the people that, you know, I was basically getting all my stuff from.So, , that was really the turning point for me when I knew, like, I'm never going to touch this again. , so I came back to New Hampshire from Colorado and, , which is, , where I'm at now for, for if you said that in the, , in the intro book, but, , You know, I, I came back here and I started to, I started to DJ [00:45:00] like out in Colorado.And so I brought that back here with me. , it ended up being something I was really good at and I started to create a following. Well, all of a sudden here comes ecstasy and ketamine and GHB and all the rave drugs. And, and, and I was like, I remember what it feels like to like, be like the partier, you know, whatever.So I just dove into it again. And that was, that was about a, about a six year relapse. , and one day I was just like, you gotta, you gotta cut the shit. Like, what are you doing? , so, , all, all the times that I got sober was all, it was all just me doing my own thing. Like I just quit. That's pretty much the extent of my drug use.De'Vannon: I can identify with the couch surfing. I ended up homeless after I got HIV and, and the drug and the cops came to raid [00:46:00] me because I was causing too much of a scene. And he used sitting. So that's how I ended up walking the streets sometimes on my, like, my mom would send me money or buy me a room. So I slept in the back of a car before or just, you know, or just with just walk all night, you know, that's and there was definitely a lot of drugs in the mix.I was pretty much how I most days. So then how did you pull yourself out of addiction? Cause it's cause you, you, you started doing drugs, you came into the money, the people were after you and in the book you told, you know, you were in the closet You know, that that was very powerful story, you know, wrapped up in the fetal position, hugging your backpack and crying and your girlfriend's closet.Yeah. Bad guy. And so did you get out? Shaun: , I jumped off the, I jumped off at second story and ran to a Greyhound. And it much, like you were saying, your parents would like help you. , I called my mom and she was like, we're not helping you. And I was like, if, [00:47:00] if you don't like, I'm going to die. Like that it's literally like that right now.It's not like some people say like, you know, like you're dope sick or something. And like, oh, I'm going to die. Like, you know, I was literally had 13 people driving around the city looking for, so, you know, , I think they understood that. And, she helped me and then she was like, this is it. You know? , so everybody started to stop the enablement and I would.Looking at my life from an outside perspective, like you new enough that like, it is a mess, like doing meth, like that almost killed me. , and now I'm sitting, you know, after my mom had helped me in everything and now I'm sitting in a new situation, , I just knew like, what are you doing? You know, like, , so I ended up, I ended up, , my daughters, we found out about my daughter in 2010., I was after I kind of, [00:48:00] well, I went through some stuff and I was living in a, , like a transitional housing. So I go out to a smoking hut and, , I hear a guy talking about like, he moved, he was from Colorado and he's talking about drugs and, you know, and all this stuff. And, , Long story short. She basically knew the people that I used to get drugs and he called back to Colorado. And all the people where we were living at, he did a check on me and that it was unsafe for me to live in the building. So they literally act all my stuff up while I was at work. I came home at six o'clock. They said, we need to talk to you, pull me into a room and said, this is the story I called my parents.At that point, I'm on my stepdad. I was like, do you believe this is happening? Like they said that they were going to help me at that point. I don't think I ended up needing it, but they gave me $400 and said, go stay in a hotel. And that was it. Right? So the executive [00:49:00] director of that program, , called a friend of hers and I ended up living in the program that I, I work for.Right. , so that was right around 2015. I went in there. , so. Between 2008 and 2015, my daughter was born in 2011. , when my daughter was born, that's when this, this just came over me, like your life needs to change. Like you need to drastically do things different because you're not taking care of, , of a, , another human same time.I'm like, holy shit, I'm taking care of another human. But , just like dumbfounded. Like I can't even take care of myself and now I have, you know, and, , that's really what pulled me out and like what smarten me up. And, , I knew that. 20 18 20 18, 20 19. I started there, , at school and I've been stayed working in the substance use field because through living in that, in that [00:50:00] program, they they're a non-profit.So they deal a lot with substance use and they have different substance and they offered me a job in one of them. And I like took off, like I've really excelled with it. And they were like, you're really good at this. Boosted some confidence and said, you should start taking some courses and certificates and certifications and, see where it takes you.And that was 2016. And I haven't really looked back since it's just been a steady, I mean, I've paused, you know, like I always tell people and clients and you know, probably yourself like the easiest way to live life as a footstep at a time. Because if you need to stop at any point, you can. But just try not to take it, you know, and, and lose that step.So, , it's been just a steady progression from there. And then, and that's really how I've, , looked at things and approach things and been able to put stuff behind me and just move forward and learn [00:51:00] more stuff about myself and just immerse myself in, De'Vannon: well, you know, life-changing circumstances like getting the kid can change people and make them silver up.I'm glad that, you know, that was a good motivation for you and that you ran with it and, and have, have been able to, you know, find a job that brought you into an atmosphere of greater sobriety. And then, you know, you've turned that into, you know, that's like you're calling out and now you're helping other people, which is, which is what it's all about. I have to agree. I think that harm reduction methods. Better than regular sobriety, different strokes for different folks. But I like it, it seems to be more lenient and merciful. , I'm not overly fond of the traditional, like anonymous movement, recovery programs and myself having been into rehab. And, , and so, , so I mean, so that's, so that's, that's awesome, you know, and [00:52:00] I think it's important when like, people like you and I have received very strong.Deliverances no matter what it is that you believe in. , you know, you do understand, you know, that you were in a very disadvantageous situation. You could have died, he didn't die. Now you're alive. You know, that is for a reason, you know, it is not to be kept quiet, it's to speak, you know, in a tale to tell your story so that you can help other people and in every kind of way.Shaun: I guess people that have kind of come from our Walker have endured hardships and stuff. You always end up with an imposter. Like I lived my entire life, even with all the trauma and with all the physical abuse and all that stuff, knowing that there was somebody out there that had it worse. But for the entire time that I was saying that I wasn't realizing that sure.There probably is somebody out there that, that had it worse than me, but like it did happen, you know, like I'm not sure if I'm portraying, right. [00:53:00] But, , I'm not giving this situation power by saying, oh, somebody else has it worse. Like, don't worry about me, you know, trying to like put, push it off. You know, so there's, there's that.De'Vannon: But what I wanted to know, and we'll be wrapping it up there shortly. Anyway, what I wanted to know before I give you a last word today is what were they after you for it? You owe them money that they just feel like they wanted to take. Shaun: So there was, there was a lot of shit that happened where Earlier on.I had been woken up with by the barrel of a gun tapping on my forehead, somebody telling me to get my ATM card and we're going to the ATM and you're, you know, you're not going to do anything about it. It happened to do with those guys. There's this whole thing that said I ratted somebody out. And, and which, if you knew the caliber of the people that we were dealing with, like that was ends in death, like why, w why would you, why [00:54:00] would you, you know, just, if you look at it from a movie standpoint, like you're not going to rat somebody out and then they're not going to be like, oh, you know, come back after you.So the main guy who we were working with. Wanted to kind of clear names. So he brought me to a mall. We were having conversation and we were going through a Macy's or some type of a department store. And he was like taking stuff off of a rack and putting it on or going into a dressing room, putting it on really shady behavior, like, like you're going to steal stuff.So I basically told them like, you know, there's lost. Like they don't just have cameras. They have like people that walk around and we'll catch you. Like, you probably shouldn't do that. So we get done, he tells me take you sunglasses and go pay for them. I'll meet you outside. So I paid for the sunglasses.I went outside. He was nowhere to be found. He actually ended up getting picked up by the lost people. They caught him stealing and he called from jail. To my second guy, the guy that I was working, he was like the dude underneath him, [00:55:00] he handled like. Money and like knowing contacts and stuff like that, there was like real people on like that I associated with.So he called one dude and that kid called me and he was like, you're fucked. Like, you're, you're done. Like I would do. I would just find somewhere to go. And I was like, I didn't do anything. We got into a yelling match on the phone altercation. I called a friend of mine and I just said, dude, I need you to come and drive me to, you know, my girlfriends.I forgot that they knew where my girlfriend lived. So two people showed up asking where I was. I was in a back bedroom. He basically talked to them, kind of smooth it over. And then they left and within 20 minutes more knocks on the door, except this time she came back and told me, like, you need to get in the closet, you need to hide.Okay. So that's, that's how, that whole thing, how that whole. So it was just a miss miscommunication and the guy being stupid. I said, you're going to get caught. I was like, no, I'm not. And he got caught in that and pretty much,[00:56:00]De'Vannon: well, I'm glad you I'm glad you've made it out and that you were able to run. I think I read that you ran four miles to the to the bus station earlier. Sometimes you have to run. When I left Houston, I didn't run for miles. I ran from the cops to way more than probably four miles one night, because I didn't want to go back to jail.That's another story there, but, but I had stolen, like if he was like chunk of meth from the guy who I think snitched me out that got me drug rated and then he was after me and everything like that. So I. I think my brother bought me a Greyhound ticket to leave, but Houston overnight, and I had to get the Shaun: hell out.It's weird. It's weird. How similar. De'Vannon: Right. And then that's how I ended up back, you know, living with my parents, you know, begin my whole rehabilitation process. When you got to move, you got to move, you got to get the hell up and her up Shaun: nowadays, nowadays I face things, you [00:57:00] know I don't put myself in precarious enough situations to have that flight or flight.And if I do, it's probably a, a good fighter response that I can go back to therapy and just say, like, I had this feeling and we work it out and there's not really much running for me. And one positive of this whole entire thing. De'Vannon: Right. Okay, Sean. So I'll just go ahead and tell everybody your final pieces of advice and your, about your website and your social media and your book that you're working on.Shaun: So I would start off with the, with the social media stuff. I have a Facebook that is called it's backslash. Sean speaks, I have Sean coffee.com. My Instagram is willows underscore runner. So it's like the, like a Willow tree. So a Willow's underscore runner. And that's predominantly where I do a [00:58:00] lot of the work.Like there's quotes, there's parts of my life. There's just snippets of me thinking about things. A lot of motivational stuff. The kids or people have an addiction. So there's that you can get the boys do cry books still on Amazon. That came out in 2018 and we are in the middle of working on kind of like a prologue or where are you now?The the book that I'm working on now, I, I don't really have much information other than it's in the works. Been in the works for a really long time and I kind of just grabbed some of the reigns and started to take all of that. So it kind of goes a little bit of that, that the story from boys do cry, but it elaborates on more of the the childhood trauma and how that affects you know, how that affects you into adult.So, you know, there's that. And then if, if I was going to give a final message to somebody or to, to the people listening, I would ask for. Them to practice. There's so much stigma [00:59:00] nowadays, and it doesn't even have to necessarily be in my realm. It doesn't have to be in substance use in the LGBTQ community.It could be in schools, it could be bullying, there's so much stuff, but just for people to pack this action, because a lot of people want to talk about their problems. Very few people want to talk about solutions. And that's one of the biggest mantras for me. And that I tell people, you know, in talks is you're part of the solution because you're not doing anything, talking to somebody about their own you're you're, you're, you're, you're trying to get across your point of view.And the other portion is trying to get across their point of view and there's no common ground. So for me, it would just be to practice, compassion be empathic and just try to be better, you know, today than you are. That's really what I live by. De'Vannon: Amen brother. Both since you since, well, since we brought up the next book, give, give us a little snippet and a [01:00:00] teaser so that the book is going to cover what's happened since you wrote the last, last book, which came out in 2018, kind of like a, where have they been now?What, what is one significant, impactful thing that has happened since the first book? Shaun: If I could say in totality, I would just say therapy. I didn't know until I was 38, I'm 42. So I didn't know until I was 38 that I had 88. I sat down with my therapist and he was probably like, what the fuck is going on?You know? And he had mentioned like, maybe, maybe this is a thing. So I go and talk to my psychiatrist at the VA. And it was almost as if he just literally looked at a piece of paper and started. Right. I kind of was like everything. Okay. And he's like, oh yeah, yeah. He's like, I'm going to put you on this medication and we'll see how it goes.I'm on the med for like three weeks. And I go into my therapist's office and he's like, I don't even know who you are. Like, you can formulate sentences. You can keep attention for more than 10 minutes. You're [01:01:00] identifying, you know, like emotions and, and, and other things. And he was like, literally, like, it was just a godsend like that.A lot of people are against medication, but I can live in an ADH D world for so long that like, this was like a clarity understand you, like, you can actually talk and I can sit here and listen to you without like interrupting you and say, well, but my story, or, you know, I know, you know, like just like interrupting you and stuff.So a lot of these things I found out late in life, but I would say it's probably the, the therapy piece because that's where I've made the biggest gains to understand more about myself and to be able to kind of put more perspective and more thought and more meaning this next. De'Vannon: Absolutely. I'm happy that you found help with the VA.Not everybody kids, kids say that Shaun: I have actually found this VA to be very helpful. And before we leave like a huge part of that story is that for the entire time that I left the [01:02:00] military, I didn't know that I had enough time in grade to be eligible for benefits. So I went through this whole entire home homeless period and all this drugs and all this other stuff, and I never knew that I was eligible for the VA healthcare.So I finally get the VA healthcare and I go to school, right. I'm going to school. And I was literally 42 days past my GI bill, like the 15 year point of my GI bill. And they wouldn't give it to me. So I lost $75,000 in school, money from the military. But I guess my point is that I didn't know that I was eligible for, for the benefits.I ended up living in a a military transitional housing, which is where I work now. I work in the same place. So had I been able to know this beforehand, things might be drastically different, but I like, I think he would say do like, everything happens for a reason. And I feel like that not knowing that had led me down roads that I needed before, before I could move on.So [01:03:00] the VA actually has also been a godsend because. Probably seven or eight surgeries in the last that the VA has helped. So everything happens for a reason, but just going on a tangent, I guess, as a VA, but you know, I do feel how you feel sometimes it's, it's hard to get a hold of people and, you know, stuff like that.De'Vannon: I, that could have been clear. I was thinking specific to VA mental health, which has been a hot mess from my down here in dealing with the ones like in new Orleans and Baton Rouge. But yeah, for any veterans out there, you there's a, there exists a thing at the VA called the eligibility department.I used to do a Shaun: compensated work therapy De'Vannon: program, which is like where people who are used to be homeless, a drug addiction. At the VA, but not really for the VA. So anyway, I learned about all this. So you can call your local VAs to speak to eligibility that they can run your record and tell you what you're eligible for.And then if you serve, like, I [01:04:00] think it's something like one hour in the military, know if you've got a bad conduct, discharge, the VA, you can go to the VA for free mental health services. You know, you're not completely out of everything, no matter what kind of discharge you have. But especially when it comes to mental health, the VA has to see everybody who ever served even.It will even if it wasn't, but for like an hour, a day or something, right. So call your eligibility department and who knows, you might have some benefits you could be missing out on overall though, the VA has improved. They, they got me like free housing and stuff and all of that when I was home with we trying to come back up.De'Vannon: So, you know, I'm, I'm not saying they perfect. They're not as much of a hot damn mess as they used to be though. So it's, it's worth the phone call. Yeah. So thank you very, very much, Sean, for coming on the show today, we're going to get everything added to the show notes and and then we look forward to following you and hearing, having you back on [01:05:00] when your book comes Shaun: out, I'll get on.That was, that was really good conversation. And I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to kind of put some of that stuff out there and, and hopefully touch some people and change hearts. De'Vannon: Absolutely. My pleasure.Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@sexdrugsandjesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon and it's been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is going to be all right. 

Shaun: "So what are we talking about? Neeks: ... No idea... I literally have no idea. It's the no idea show! Nah, we talked about drugs on the weekend, people are still legging it out of hops with butt-roll AND there's a new stimulus payment coming for Australians?! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/heydimmu/message

Shaun: A week or so ago, someone told Carrie that she’d be better served if she didn’t present as insecure on her social media. Carrie: For the record, I am just open about when I’m scared about things. I’m not sure insecurity is the same as fear. I mean, I guess it is to a certain extent. But I’m not insecure about who I am. I like who I am, an occasionally anxious, goofy, smart, creative, quirky, open-book kind of person. Does that sound like who I am? Shaun: Pretty much. Carrie: Anyways, here’s the thing. You can pretend to be someone you aren’t. You can present any damn way you choose. But that’s it – it’s your choice. Nobody else’s. Shaun: And Carrie? She has no problem being vulnerable. In her book, Daring Greatly, Brene Brown writes that the biggest myth about vulnerability is that it is weakness. And that’s possibly what happened with that person’s comment to Carrie last week. Carrie: To be fair, about once a year a woman writer, usually older than I am, will tell me to present as more confident because I am strong and talented. They are trying to help me, personally, and the cause of all women, too. I think? But I don’t see the dichotomy between strength and vulnerability. They shouldn’t be on opposite ends of a line. Shaun: Brene Brown writes, “We’ve come to the point where, rather than respecting and appreciating the courage and daring behind vulnerability, we let our fear and discomfort become judgement and criticism.” Carrie: And she also says this, which I think is how it pertains to writers and artists and this podcast, “Vulnerability isn’t good or bad: It’s not what we call a dark emotion, nor is it always a light, positive experience. Vulnerability is the core of all emotions and feelings. To feel is to be vulnerable. To believe vulnerability is weakness is to believe that feeling is weakness.” Shaun: So vulnerability is writing. Because vulnerability is risk and emotional exposure. And even the act of writing is vulnerable because almost the first thing someone asks you is, “Oh? Have I read you?” It’s like they determine your worth just by whether or not you’ve been on a bestseller list or not. Carrie: Exactly, but just writing and deciding to create is a risk because it’s not the most financially secure thing in the world, but it also is because once you put your creation out there – unlike the accountant – you are vulnerable via ratings and bad reviews and internet trolls, which is massive emotional exposure. But it’s more than that. Writers have to incorporate emotion and vulnerability on the page. They create characters who are meant to tweak the readers’ emotions. Writers are like the tsars of vulnerability. WRITING TIP OF THE POD You are a writer. You are a human. Embrace your ability to take risks, to be vulnerable. Emotions are not weakness. DOG TIP FOR LIFE Allow yourself to lick the kitten in public, adopt those who you love. Be open. Be vulnerable. Love. Random Thoughts Included: Carrie's anxiety about dental surgery Bangor (Maine) City Council Signs Carrie not being dead. We think. SHOUT OUT The music we’ve clipped and shortened in this podcast is awesome and is made available through the Creative Commons License. Here’s a link to that and the artist’s website. Who is this artist and what is this song? It’s “Night Owl” by Broke For Free. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/carriejonesbooks/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/carriejonesbooks/support

Shaun: So, Carrie's not the best in the mornings and too much noise, clutter, extra to-do items pretty much throws her completely off her game. Carrie: One of the reasons that the dogs and I do daily motivating thoughts on my Facebook and Twitter accounts is because it helps ground me and make me feel less cranky and stressed.... Usually. Shaun, however, is a morning person who craves noise and tropical music while I'm a Pachibel's Cannon morning person. Shaun: True. Carrie: So, this week's podcast is the first in a series of podcasts about how to make your life and your writing life better and our first tip is.... DOG TIP OF THE CAST: Just say no to the stuff you don't want to do. You don't have to say yes to invitations or the extra responsibilities. You don't have to respond to every single text and/or email. You get to be in charge of these ancillary parts of your life. If you don't want to email/text/talk to someone, there might be a really good reason why. In this life, we have a limited amount of time to expend. Expend it well. Do it on your terms. Dogs get this. WRITING TIP OF THE POD: Yep. Same point. Write the stories that you want to, that resonate with you. Say no to the stories you think other people want you to write. When you get rid of the baggage, the things you don't want or need to do, you free up your mind of clutter and give it space to create. Listen to the full podcast to hear Shaun's random thought all about marketing - KaPerPi. It's knowledge, awareness, public relations and public image. It's pretty cool. SHOUT OUT The music we’ve clipped and shortened in this podcast is awesome and is made available through the Creative Commons License. Here’s a link to that and the artist’s website. Who is this artist and what is this song? It’s “Night Owl” by Broke For Free. For more tips and insight and cool things, check out carriejonesbooks.blog or our webpage Dogs are Smarter Than People. Thank you so much for liking and subscribing and sharing! You rock. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/carriejonesbooks/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/carriejonesbooks/support

If you work in the Government acquisition world, this podcast is for you. (not just for Contracting Officers!) Kevin welcomes special guest Shaun So to the podcast to discuss Shaun’s experience in gaining 8a certification for The So Company. Learn how the 8a Program can help small businesses win Government business and why certification alone is not enough. We introduced the 8a program way back in Episode 95. This episode provides context on how it works in the real world. __________ This episode is brought to you by Skyway Acquisition. To get help with the Government market, become a Skyway Community member. The Skyway Community ensures you are better positioned to take advantage of opportunities and better equipped to manage the challenges of government contracts. Members have access to one-on-one insights, time-saving tools, and training resources from our team of former COs, including the ability to get the perspective of our whole team in Ask A Contracting Officer Forum, get specialized training from our on-demand webinars and articles, targeting support through our RFP Score™ assessment tool, as well as our consulting from our team of former COs who help solve your unique puzzles. Visit AskSkyway.com to learn more. __________ Kevin Jans and Paul Schauer created the Contracting Officer Podcast to help Government and Industry acquisition professionals understand more about how the other side thinks. Admittedly, the podcast’s name sounds very limiting. It is not just for contracting officers or even just for those in the contracting profession. Anyone with an interest in the Federal acquisition world can benefit from the insight and down-to-earth explanations of complicated topics provided by the hosts.

In this episode, we have a special guest - Shaun Thresher. Shaun is an employee of mine who makes his first guest appearance in an episode every entrepreneur needs to listen to. We go over the biggest reasons most entrepreneurs struggle in business, how to overcome those obstacles and what you need to do starting TODAY to make breakthrough profits in your business. Check it out, share it and let me know what you think! Resources Mentioned Want To Work With Me? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at Jeremy@JeremyReeves.com Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy: Hey guys this is Jeremy and welcome back to another episode of the sales funnel master podcast. I have a special guest on the line today and he is actually my employee, so there is no really intro. Basically, he works for me that is his intro. His name is Shaun and he is an Italian which you might have (inaudible 00:00:37). He is from Italy and I actually just had him in a couple of weeks ago and we spend I think 5 days something like that, getting to know each other better because we never saw each other in person. I am a huge on transparency and relationship stuff like that, so I have Shaun in and we have planned out the next 90 days and we came up the idea. Number 1 to focus more on the podcast which I have been doing if you have not noticed over the past couple of weeks and number 2, I am actually going to start having him more on the podcast when I do my own parts of the podcast besides guests and stuff like that. So today -- and I’ll let Shaun come on and talk for a minute -- today, we are going to talk about why people succeed and why other people don't because there are such big differences and a lot of it comes down to just mindset and execution on what you are actually doing rather than how smart you are or what kind of business you are in. I mean, in most cases, that stuff really does not matter at all. It matters about what your plan is and then how well you execute it. So that is some of the stuff we are going to talk about it today. Shaun, come on and introduce yourself, so they can kind of get to know you a bit. Shaun: Hey everybody, yeah, I am Shaun like he said, I live in Italy. It is kind of funny about that, I am a transplant. My wife is an Italian so that is kind of how I round up over there. I met Jeremy about a year ago, it was kind of a weird thing. I just came on there and I saw he was the funnel expert and I was like “Well, hey Jeremy, what’s up? What do you think if I jump on with you?” and he has taught me some of the ropes and so that went good for a little bit I worked on small project with him. He kind of like the work I did and everything went good. So he hired me and here we are. Jeremy: Yeah, and one thing I want to point out to people is that and it actually ties in really, really well to succeeding and not succeeding, is Shaun did not come to me and like “Hey, you know, I’ll charge you X dollars for this” and he said, “look, I want to work with you, I want to let you know -- I want to prove myself before we ever talk about him giving me fees and stuff like that. So he actually did a project for me right up front and he did that, I liked it and we started moving forward after that and I think it might had been another week or two or something like that before I actually hired you but that is kind of like what we are talking about today, if you want something, you have to go out and get. You can't just sit back and think “(inaudible 00:03:13)” with your sales funnels and your business. A lot of people are “oh, I’m not growing this year” (inaudible 00:03:19) and then if you look at the actions that they are taking and number 1 how much action they are taking and number 2, what type of action they are taking, it is completely off the mark and it is so easy to go in somebody’s business and transform it just based on that, and not even some of the other stuff that we are going to talk about today. So I just want to kind of start off on that note. If you want something, just go and get it. don't have an excuse for it. don't sit there and bitch and moan about why things are so bad. I mean, take it in your own hands and just go out and freaking get it. So Let's start off. You actually just sent me a statistic that said that 90 -- I forgot what it is, the competition in your business, 90% give up and this is really with any business. 90% give up before they see any results because a lot of people are worried about competitors and things like that, but most people they come into a marketplace are going to be gone in the next couple of months, and even the people who stay and again, this goes back to really any business, whether it is your competitors whether it is my competitor, I mean, it is really just anybody. There is only a small percentage of people that are going to be there long term. Most people come in and they try one or two things and they fail and they give up and they are gone, and then other people, they come in and they do kind of well, they get a little bit of success and then they hit one big giant road blocking road and they fail. They give up, it is too hard. For example last year, I had a rough year last year because my dad got cancer and I was spending -- tons and tons and tons of time with him. I was taking work off to go spend time with them. I was taking him to get chemo, I mean it was -- it was a rough year and my income went down a little bit. It is already, I actually did surpassed it this year for last year. But, I mean, most people just give up and they kind of take that and use it as an excuse rather than say, “Okay, it is going to go down a little bit obviously” because you are just not spending as much time at work. I mean I probably spend maybe half the time that I usually do last year actually working because of all that. It is just kind of a mindset difference in entrepreneurs and the 90% they’re going to come in, they’re just going to give up. They are going to hit a road block, give up and then there is a couple of percent that are going to, another 5% or so that are going to -- they are going to do well until they hit some kind of giant road block or they going to get distracted with shiny object syndrome or something like that is going to happen and then the other 5% or probably less than that are going to be your actual competitors and those are the ones you should focus on. You should focus on the big players in your industry because if you look at them, you are going to find similarities between them. They are going to be the people that succeed because they, you know like I have been saying, there is really two things. Number 1, being able to actually execute. How much you actually get done in a given day and then you multiply that over whatever 365 days or how many days a year that you work, whatever it is. That is number 1. But if you are not working on the right things, then it does not do anything and that is honesty where a lot of people fail. I have tons of people and Shaun, you know this because we kind of talk about this. I have tons of people that come to me and they are like, you know I wanted a sales funnel. I already know that I am losing money every single day because my funnel is not optimized and blah, blah, blah and I actually just had one guy that I have been working with. He told me he is losing about $2000 a day waiting for his funnel to be fixed and he has a fairly good excuse. I would not really say that it is good enough for my standards but it is a little bit better than most people. But, people are like, “Oh, you know, I can't spend $10,000, $15,000, or $20,000 or whatever it is on a sales funnel” even though they are making a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year and what happens is, people are spending their life “Oh, you know, I have to get my website redone.” I have someone actually that is a perfect example. Someone came in and I quoted her a project and I could easily, easily, easily add an extra 10 grand a month to her business easily. I mean, it is just a complete no-brainer for what I was going to do for her and she has been stalling now for roughly, I think, it has been 2 months or so because she has been waiting for her website to get done and it is like, “Oh my God come on” I mean that it is just such a bad excuse in my mind because, yeah, first of all, why can’t you do both? I just don’t understand that. You are an entrepreneur, you should be able to prioritize. Shaun: Right, and the funny thing about that is, it is a funnel work from the backend anyways. It is like if you have a list, you build the list, send out the sequences, and then there you go. So, I did not know what their excuse had to be for their website to be ready anyways. Jeremy: I know, yeah and with her, what we were doing, it was not a typical sales funnel for her. What we are doing is doing basically joint venture sales funnel. So one of the things has worked really, really, really well and it is a risk-free way to grow a business is one of the best and the most risk free that really could ever have on a business is doing joint ventures. And Shaun, you know this, I mean some of my biggest projects come from my joint venture partners. So, that is what I was actually going to build for her was a funnel going out and reaching out and acquiring joint venture partners. Because, you know, with that, if you send out a direct mail package or something, maybe you are paying few bucks for it, whatever, I mean, that is basically risk free. You don't even have to do that. You could just reach out the email which is what most people do. But I was going to put together a -- it was actually a smaller funnel, it was not that much money. It was basically a funnel to reach out to joint venture partners for them to promote your business to their audience and you have to do it in a really, really, specific way. You can't just reach out to some of the people in your industry and say, “Hey, you want to send people? Do you want to put of all of you reputation on the line to send out my business?” That is not going to work. Shaun: It was not basically just to wait for her to break the ice and kind of digitally shake hands and say “Hey, this is what I got going on. This is how I could help your customers.” Jeremy: Yeah, exactly and that is one of the things that we don’t put through the whole process of one of these joint venture funnels. But, one of the big things is, and you know this again, when we do this, we get, in fact I just had the other day, we got compliments on our cold emails all the time. I did one for when we were reaching out to people to be on their podcasts or for them to come on our podcast or for potential joint venture partner or if we are reaching out to somebody to do like a webinar or to do a guest article and we do all of these things, by the way. We actually get compliments on the email itself and it is like, “Oh my god it was such a well-written email.” And yeah, that is because we actually put time into it. I mean, you dug in, you know this. We sit there, we’ll go write one email to somebody and spend an hour on it. Because it makes a difference when you -- Shaun: Yes, like half a page (Inaudible 00:11:33). Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, it is only a couple of paragraphs. I mean, if you read it out louder, it probably take you 15 seconds. It is not big, but the thing is you have to, and this is where a lot of people go wrong is they just want to tell people about their product, “Oh, I’m so great and I’m such an awesome person and my products are the best.” When you reach out to people, they don’t care about that. They care about what is in it for them. In the case of joint ventures, it is really number 1, is for one we are going after people and this is really the case for most joint venture deals is number one is about a new income stream. So, you are adding something that was not there before. So, that always gets attention and then you kind of say, “Yeah, here’s what’s happened for our last.” The last time somebody sent me a client, I sent them X dollars so you have some proof in there. Then the biggest thing is people don't want their reputation ruined if they send you somebody and you treat them poorly. So then we also have things in place that show people how we treat our clients and plus, you know, I mean, it is free money for them. Like I said before, it is a new income stream. I mean, it is different in every case and again I would not go into too much detail. But the point is, going back to kind of what I was talking about before, is people just have excuses and those excuses are typically really bad. I got a lot of them and sometimes it is like listen, if I quote you $15,000 or $20,000 for a sales funnel and you are barely scraping by, that is a good excuse because you don't have money, like you literally have to borrow it, you get a loan or something like that. Shaun: You know, what’s funny about that because that is probably a guy we want to work with anyways because he is out there hustling. Jeremy: Yeah, you know, some of the clients I have had in the past where it is like, “Man this is a pretty bad stretch for me and I am going to go out and borrow money” but those are typically the best clients because like you said they are hustlers and if you are an entrepreneur, if you don't look at yourself in the morning and think, look at yourself in the mirror and think that you are a hustler, I mean, that is a very bad sign. We wake up every single day and hustle our ass off and do things that just -- Here is a good example. Yesterday, I actually accomplished all of my weekly goals for the week and that is actually including, I actually went golfing on Wednesday for the afternoon. Shaun: I confirmed that. Jeremy: Yeah and I have shot absolutely, absolutely terribly and really, those kind of last minute thing. It was only because it is getting cold here and it was the last time I am going to be able to go this year. So and I have 3 other guys that I was going with and I was like, you know and I am just going to go. But I accomplished all of my weekly goals and you saw the list because I actually share my weekly goals with Shaun because like I said I believe in transparency. So I just started doing that and that list was not small in any stretching imagination and I actually finished it yesterday and instead of just saying “Ok, well I will just take Friday off” I added more to the list and I have a whole big list of things that I am getting done today and I am actually going to be working -- I forgot, either tomorrow or Sunday morning for new thing because we are in the business. We started a new thing that we are doing. Where we’re reaching out to specific people offering and very specific link, I won;t get into it. But that is kind of what I am doing there to kind of, instead of just saying okay we are doing good, we had three of the biggest months in a row that we had in the last like a year and a half and they were right in a row. Shaun: Yeah, it has been crazy. Jeremy: Yeah, it has been insane. So we are doing really well, but I don't want to stop that. I want to get to the end of that and then it slows down again. So, we are trying this new thing and I want to get really good momentum for it. So, I am waking up early. I can't remember. I have a mark in my calendar but one of the days this weekend and it is basically -- I am waking up before the rest of the family gets up. I am going to work for probably 3-4 hours and then depending on what day it is, I think it is Sunday and I am waking up doing that, coming up for breakfast with the kids I will get up probably 2-3 hours earlier than everybody else and that I am coming up and I am going to spend the day with the kids and then I am actually going to my mom’s for we are having like a little birthday lunch thingy for my brother’s birthday. Shaun: Nice. Cool. Jeremy: Yeah, and then leaving there and going to Katie’s mom for dinner and her brother and sister are all going to be there so it’s a very, very family-focused day. Shaun: Stromboli? Jeremy: No, no, no. Katie makes the Stromboli. Katie’s mom does not make that. I don’t even know what we were eating there. Probably some kind of roasted chicken or I have no idea. Shaun: Cheese pizza? Jeremy: Oh, you must missed cheese pizzas. But anyway, so that is one thing is that the whole kind of argument there is you have to have a priority in your business. Like, Shaun you know, we have basically three things that we are focusing on for the next 90 days. Shaun: And we just came up with that though, that was kind of our thing, we were like “Hey, we are kind of losing our focus and so Let's just drive and focus on this one thing for the next 90 days and boy, I mean, you see the results. You can see all the business we have got in. Jeremy: Yeah, instantly! I mean it was within like a week and again, Like Shaun said, there are 3 things that we are focusing on that is it. We are not testing 10 different types of ads, we are not doing Facebook and Google and Twitter and Youtube. We are just doing Facebook, we are just doing the direct outreach thing that I mentioned before and that is kind of like a secret little project, so I can't get into that, and then we are focusing on the podcast, and that is it. We are doing nothing else and the results have been just phenomenal so far. So the first thing is, make sure that you have a focus on the business for the next -- for the rest of the year. We only have like 2 months left and -- Shaun: Maybe you recommend that book that we went through to come up with our plan? Jeremy: Ahh.. what was the book? I don't even remember. Shaun: It was like, --. Jeremy: The 12 week year, I think it was called. I am pretty sure it was 12 week year. Shaun: Yes, 1 year of work in 12 weeks. Jeremy: Yeah, basically, that book talks about instead of planning for the year which -- anybody listen to this, everybody probably plans for the year. I used to. I don't even do more. But you plan for the year and then you get to like February, the entire thing shifts. So, there is really no point in even planning for a year. You could have like some kind of major overarching goals for the year like income you want to make or something like that. I don't even focus on that anymore even. I just focused on -- I kind of focus on what I do. I think of what I want to hit at the end of the year and then I work backwards and say, okay, what do I have to do to hit that and then I just forget about the number, just let it all happen and then -- Shaun: And starts to take 2 months off? Jeremy: Yeah. Shaun: Get it 2 months early. Jeremy: As we go things changed. So for example, the next 90 days we are focusing on those things. Within those 90 days, we are going to know if they were successful or not. So if they were, we do more of them if they were not, we switch. It is really that simple. In most cases, people have all these excuses for not doing a funnel and it is like, “I’m going to wait 2 months, I’m going to wait a year, I have got do this first, I have got to do this other thing first, I have to clean my office before we start.” I mean it is like, the excuses I have received over the years are just absolutely pathetic. So just figure out if a funnel is your weakness in the business, maybe it is, maybe it is not. Sometimes your price points are off. I am working with a new client and I looked at his business. He is actually a revenue share partner. I am basically just taking a piece of his business essentially. And the first thing that we are doing is I increase his prices by like 50% because he is closing 80% of people. So we are increasing prices to get that down -- Shaun: And that guy is an executor. Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I am sending him stuff and he is writing me back 20 minutes later that is implemented. That is an entrepreneur. He is a hustler. He actually, it is kind of funny, he actually emailed me and he is like “Oh, yeah, just so you know I bought a house” and I was like, “What? What are you talking about? Like were you looking for one?” and he was like, “Kind of. We kind of have one in mind and then we walked into the house, I love it and I bought it within the next 48 hours.” I was like “What?” If you do stuff like that, that shows you that you are a hustler, that you are like a true entrepreneur. So that is number 1, lets us move on to the next one. One of the things that people struggle with and this is like a big priority, is getting cold traffic to work. I worked with so many people and nobody really focuses on getting cold traffic to work. It kind of -- I mean it kind of depends on this. If you want to scale, you have to. I mean, there is really no other way about it because well in certain cases, but -- Shaun: That is pretty much the holy grail. Jeremy: Yeah, it really is because when you get cold traffic to work, Let's say Facebook for example, let just say start you start with Facebook, you get that to be profitable and profitable enough like if you are spending a dollar and making a dollar and 2 cents. I mean, technically, that is profitable, but you are really not going to scale on that, but if you get it to an amount that is acceptable, an acceptable ROI say that is like you are spending $1 and making a $1.50 or $2 or $3 whatever it is for your business, it kind of depends. If you have a product, it could be like a $1.25 or $1.50 and that is fine. If it is more of a service, it has got to be more like probably 3 times ROI (inaudible 00: 21:57) at least to be able to be profitable. You kind of have to get that because once you get it and I always recommend clients to start with one thing. Start with AdWords and once you get it profitable then maximize it and once you can't even do anything else with it, then go on to the next traffic source. So you do, just for example, AdWords, you get that profitable that is your big breakthrough, you open a bottle of champagne and you kind of take a night off and then you come back the next morning and you say, “Okay, how do I make this more profitable?” and you maximize that, and then you move on to Facebook and then you get that profitable and then you maximize that profit, and then you move on to the next thing, Tweeter, Youtube, Instagram or direct mail, whatever it is. But a lot of people are like, “I’m going to try cold traffic. I’m going to try simultaneously a postcard campaign, a radio campaign, a TV campaign, Facebook, Tweeter and that is -- go ahead. Shaun: That is the 90% that we were just talking about at the beginning. Jeremy: Yeah, and they do that -- not even just with cold traffic, that is with basically everything they do that with. That is how they hire employees, that is how they run their business on the day-to-day basis. It is how they -- even as far as planning your days. If you have everything mixed up in the same day, you are not going to be productive. So for me, I am a writer, so I have days where it is just writing and when I am on a writing day, I am just like -- I just go into the dark hole for the day. I don't even pop up, and that is why I am able to write an entire 15-page sales letter in 1 day, is because I have such ridiculous focus on those days. Now, can I do that every day? No, but when it is my heavy writing days, I can do that, in fact, I just did it this week. It was a -- I think it was a 14-page sales letter and I started the sales letter and finished the sales letter within 1 day, I think it was my lunch actually, and then I moved on. The reason that I do that is because of that laser, laser focus and you can apply to that to every area of the business with how you plan out your days, with how you are getting revenue into the business. One of the things there is look at your business, and figure out -- okay, like lay out all the various ways that you make money, all of your revenue streams. Maybe you have, I don't know, 4 of them. And then you look and you mark down and you say, okay, Let's just say that is A you get $5000 a month, B you get $5000 a month, C you get $5000 a month and D you get $5000 a month. So they are all equal and so you would look at that and say, “Okay, well, they are all equal so we are going to put equal amount of time into them.” Well then, that is not really the right way to do because if you look, you are going to find that you are putting different amounts of time into them already. So with A, you might put 10 hours to make $5000, with B you might put 30 hours to make $5000, with C it might be 50 and D might be 100 or whatever. So you look at that and you say, “Okay, well, I’m putting in -- I basically making $500 an hour on A so hey why don’t we focus on that one.” It is not really rocket science. It is just taking the time to look through your business and see what is working, what is not, where your leverage points are and then focus on that. Coming back to cold traffic, it is the same thing, focus on one piece of traffic. I usually do -- I focus on 3 and then like 1 in each once. So there is like free traffic and then kind of like authority traffic and then paid traffic. Just focus on one of those each. In that way, you get a little bit of diversity but then you are also maximizing the time that you are putting into each of them. So that is kind of another kind of big reason that people are not succeeding in businesses because they are just focusing on so many different things and it is just -- they have so many going on and it is one of the reasons why I get people that are like “Oh, you know, I have no bandwidth left.” and it is like “Yeah, that is because you are trying to do it by gazillion things” Here’s an idea, don’t do that. Just in case Jeff is listening to this, it is not really -- he is my client that I said has a decent excuse. He has got through a lot of kind of weird stuff lately and some giant headache. So he’s kind of in a weird spot, but most people that I talked to gives similar excuses but have not gone through the big things that he has gone through. It would be a whole podcast just explaining what we went through. One of them for example is, he ended up having to -- he had to redo his website and he ended up like paying like, it was like 3 or 4 times the amount that the developers that are originally quoted him because they got to the end of his first whatever quote period and they were like, “Oh yeah, we are not even close to being done, and we can’t stop now, and you can't hire anybody else because they are not going to know where to pick up and it is probably going to be about 3 times the amount that we quoted you.” That was basically the situation. He got kind of screwed which I have no idea if that was (inaudible 00:27:35) or not. He is actually not even declining it so I don't know if that was like an internal thing, like a bad hiring (inaudible 00:27:42) what happened but he is in kind of a weird spot. Let's move on to the next one. The next one is that people don't have a backend. Shaun, I am going to have you kind of talk about this from a little bit. So just kind of pick it up and we will see where your thought goes. Shaun: I don't have backend either. Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, right? Your backend is me and your frontend is me. Shaun: Yeah, backends, they are kind of unusual creature because once you kind of get the frontend lined out, then your backends come in and that is kind of where I picked up -- where I started helping Jeremy was. We always try to teach people that there is certain touch points in how you want to communicate with your customers. One of the most recent clients that we had he was in a daily niche and then I had to go in and read through what he was talking about and kind of pick up his voice and communicate properly to the customer where he could have done that on his own but if he is not really paying to attention how the customers respond to him, they come in and respond to support emails, if he is not taking any consideration when he writes his sequences for a sales funnel, I see that is where people make a mistakes. The other thing I see mistakes when clients come to us on the backend is they just don't have anything there. Maybe, they will have a service or they will have a product and that’s it and you ask them “so what is next?”they were like, “Well, what do you mean?” What do you think about that? Jeremy: Yeah, I mean I can't tell you - and I have fought with customers over this. You are bringing people in and Let's just say that you have $97 product upfront right? So you get customers, Let's just say you are making $100 grand a year, you are doing okay. You are pushing along a little bit but you only have that one product. You have all those customers who trusted you with $97 of their money, I mean it is not a lot of money, but the point is they are trusting you with whatever result that you promised to get them. Shaun: Another thing that we were saying to -- they do the one contact, so the guy comes in and he will buy from you one time and then they never follow up with them. Jeremy: Oh yeah, I mean people put so much time into the front end and it was like, “Okay, I’m going to do 50 auto-responders for my prospects” and then it is like “Okay, people buy now what?” Shaun: What’s that 50 (inaudible 00:30:19) like? The cost of a new client versus a previous client? Jeremy: It is something like 7 or 10 times less expensive to get them to buy again. Let's just say that your cost per acquisition, cost for acquiring customer is Let's just say its $100. Basically, it would cost you somewhere in the range of like may be $10 to $15 to get them to buy a second time and the thing with that is -- I don't know about profitability because one person might have $500 backend, one person might have $10,000 backend, so I am not sure with that, but Let's just say that you have a $97 product and it costs -- Let's just say that you have $150 product and it costs you $100 to get them, so making 50% basically for each customer comes in and then you have a $500 product and it cost you $15 to get them buy again. I mean, look at the difference in the profitability? That is where most smart business make their money. People are like, “Oh, I have this one product, and I want to be hugely profitable on it.” And I talked to them and then like look, “that’s not how business works.” Business works by having something upfront that allows you to kind of gather the largest amount of customers in a break even or may be just like a tiny little sliver of a profit, and this is where the whole like trip wire thing came out. Everybody say, “Oh my god tripwire, it’s a brilliant idea, it’s been out for like 8000 years. (inaudible 00:32:10) I just want to name on it. Same thing with survey funnels like basically adding marketing concept, I mean it is all out there already. It is just putting a different name on it. Shaun: It was not called like a ‘Lead Magnet’ or something at first? Jeremy: Well, “Lead Magnet’, that is more of like a free report or kind of thing, but again, giving a free report. Two step mailing, I mean that has been out since like the early 1900s, they have been doing that in direct mail, and it is just somebody has to put a name on it. Shaun: So what would you think if somebody could implement today, like one small tweak they could implement to their backend starting today? Jeremy: Yeah, that is easy, come out to freedom offer. I called it freedom offer -- this kind of varies between the business but come out with something that is roughly 5 to 10 times as expensive as whatever your highest thing is now okay, maybe its 3 or 4 -- it is several times more expensive. Shaun: Could you explain that, I think that came out kind of confusing. Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, so Let's just say -- for example, this client that we just joint, his highest package I think was -- I think it was like $2000. So what we are doing and he said like, when he brings people on, they are not really complaining about price because he gets tons of tons of visitors, he does a lot of qualifying on weeding people out. So when he gets on the phone with people he is closing like 80%+ because they have already seen the price, they have already kind of talk about a little bit so when people come on they are not really talking about price, I’m like, “well, dud, you gotta increase your price.” So one of the things and he also said, he is like -- a lot of people come in and they only get like 2 or 3 months of coaching, but that is not really going to transform your life and that is even when I talk about with funnels and stuff and that is why, as you know, were moving away from just like one-time projects and things like that, we are moving way, way more towards actually partnering with people because the difference and I think -- Shaun: Yeah, but that is not just so we could profit, that’s so we can really dive in and learn somebody’s business so we could -- so they can benefit more. Jeremy: Yeah, I mean it is so hard like when you are redoing a sales funnel for somebody and it is like okay, Let's do a sales letter and 2 up-sells and a buyer’s sequence and a prospect sequence. You don't -- I mean, there is not enough time to really, and especially, because most clients are like, “I going to make you wait 3 months, 3 weeks, I got a delay, I got a delay, I got a delay, okay, I am ready to go, why is it not done?” We get that all the time. Besides that, but it’s -- you can't go deep enough when it is not on a revenue-sharing basis. Just because of the way that is structured fee-wise. I mean it is just not -- Shaun: And would you think it’s like dating? Jeremy: What’s that? Shaun: I mean it would be similar to dating wouldn’t it? Jeremy: Yeah, so for him, he would get a lot of people that would come in and he is like a dating coach, so he would come in and they would get a date and then it will be like “okay, I’m done” and it is like, okay, well do you know how to keep her? Do you know how to stay with her? Do you know how to set boundaries with her? So you are not like one of these guys that just gets like trampled on by the wife and there is -- trust me, a lot of guys like that the wife just rules the house and it should not be like that and the guy should not either, it should be a balance and that is how you keep a healthy relationship and that is why divorce rates are like whatever 50%+. You have to accept those boundaries and free -- first of all, you have to be with the right person first of all. But anyway, one of the things that I kind of took all this information and we are coming out with several packages. We came out with a 2-month, a 3-month, a 6-month, and a 12-month package and people are going to naturally fall into the various categories. They were not available before so people did not do them, now that they are available, I guarantee you, so his highest package now is $15,000. It is like whatever it is like $1200 a month for 12 months, whatever that -- Shaun: About that, maybe talk through about why somebody would build a high package even if they get no customers for it. Jeremy: Yeah, that is actually a good point. So Let's just pretend that nobody does it. He is going to get people in it because in every marketplace, there is roughly 1% of people just have tons of money, they just want the best thing that you have, it does not even matter a lot -- he is ridiculously awesome. But it does not even matter what it is really, there are just people -- they just want the highest end just across the board whether it is a vacuum cleaner, a computer, a car, a house whatever it is. They want the best thing that they can possibly get. So if you don't have these things that really make people stretch, and I will talk about -- actually a new thing that we’re going to be coming out with -- first of all, you are not going to attract those people that always want the highest thing because if you don't have that really, really high thing you are not even going to attract those people. Number 2, even if you don't sell any, so he has his $15,000 program, when he is on the phone with people, I am going to have him start with the $15,000 program that he is talking about because he is going to -- basically, we give them like a little bit of an overview at the various program that he has and then when he is on the phone I am going to have him start and then it is like okay “what packages do you have?” and he will start talking about it, and we still actually have to build a selling strip for all of this. He is a fairly new client. He’s a fairly new client, he’s only been on for about a month, something like that, not even. Actually, October 1st we started, so not even like 3 weeks. So what we are doing is I am going to have him start at the $15,000 okay and what that does is that created a juxtaposition, and that basically like if you see a big elephant next to like a little fox, that fox is going to look smaller than if you see another fox next to that fox. So that is basically called a juxtaposition, it just makes it -- it kind of like enhances whatever it is, if it is a small thing it makes it look it smaller if it is big, it makes it look bigger that kind of thing. So if he is going down and he is going to start with okay my highest price program is $15,000 and this is for the most like bad ass guy. We are going to work together for full 12 months. He will go into his whole pitch and then most people are going to be like “wow, that is like way too much” and then he will come back down like “okay, well we have another one” and it is only $2500. That looks so much cheaper than if he just said “okay, I think you have fallen to the $2500 one.” Because you are coming -- instead of just starting basically from 0 to 2500, you are starting from $15,000 and coming down to $2500. Number 1 by doing that, it is going to help him close more people on the phone like higher percentage, but another thing is, he is going to get more people into the higher end program, so he is -- Shaun: Another thing about that too is you just got done talking to the guy about his higher end program, in his mind, he sees himself already there, but you offer him a lower program, he is like, “it’s almost there, it’s quite there, it’s close enough.” Jeremy: Yeah, basically, what that does is that, that establishes your authority. If you have the ball to charge $15,000, I mean you look at that, and you are like, “Wow, this due really must know what he is talking about” instantly, like even if you know nothing else about him and obviously we are in the process of putting funnels in place that really build his authority before they get into a call, but even if -- as you are sitting there, pretend that you need help with dating, okay, and by the way, if anybody needs help with dating, reach out to me and I will hook you up with them because he is ridiculously awesome. Let's just pretend that you need help with dating and you get on the phone with 2 people, okay. The one and you don't know anything about either of them, okay. So there is Charlie and Mark, right. So you get in the phone with Charlie and he is like, “Okay, you know, I am going to help you with dating and my package is $2500” for 3 months or whatever and you are like okay, and then you get on the phone with the other guy, forgot what name I set for the other guy, and you get in the phone with him and he says, “Oh, I can help you with dating and my highest price program is $15,000 and we are going to work with you for the whole year and if that is not in your range, we have another one at $2500.” The difference in that just by having that high end program, you instantly -- just think in your head right now, who do you think is more credible, the guy with $2500 program or the guy with the $15,000 program? It does not even matter if he has anybody in it or he can even deliver on, obviously you are going to want a deliver on it. Shaun: Yeah, there’s a bit of disclaimer about that though, I mean it is an actual program. It is not just something we just put up there. Jeremy: Yeah, yeah -- Shaun: (inaudible 00:41:34) lots of content. You know, I mean, if somebody signs up for it, they are getting a massive amount of value. Jeremy: Yeah. It is like that most high level thing like ever, you know you get -- Shaun: And the other thing I see people when they’re hesitant about developing a program like that is what we’re talking about before was -- they are like “what I am going to offer in that program” I can't charge $15 grand, I don't know what to offer them that” Jeremy: Yeah, so in that case, you have to become better. I mean it is just that simple and maybe that sounds harsh, but that is the truth I mean you know when you came in, I said, I mean, we started talking about me implementing a higher end program and this is not even live yet. Shaun: I think I have been pushing you to make that happen to. Jeremy: Yeah, you have a little bit and it has been one of those things on the back burner and now it is coming through but by the end of this year, I am going to have a program that is $120,000 a year. It is basically $10,000 a month and then I will probably have a thing where you can pay like a $100,000 upfront or whatever and just get it, but I am going to have a program that is $120,000 a year right. That instantly makes me more authoritative and I am going to obviously make it worth. It is basically going to be what we do for the revenue share partners, but for someone like if you have a $30 million dollar business or something like that maybe you don't want to do revenue share because that can be ridiculous amounts of money so you just kind of do this instead. Obviously, it is not going to be for everybody. If you are making $100,000 a year, you can't afford to spend that but there is a certain percentage of every single audience in the world and if you don't believe that I want you to email me so I can yell at you personally. Because, I mean, honestly, there are things -- let's just have a completely obscured -- knitting. That is the most like ridiculously, like, you would never think someone in charge -- Shaun: My grandma love knitting. Jeremy: Right. So you would never think the classes you probably go to you probably spend like $5 a class or something like that. I guarantee you, there are certain people in the knitting niche that would spend, I mean I don't know how much, but at least a couple $1000 and what you can do with that is let's see -- I am trying to put myself into the knitting mindset here. Shaun: I would think that if you were to teach like a lady how to start your own type of business they could do like trade shows or crop show. Jeremy: Yeah, that is one. You can be like a certified knitter. You could go and do a live event where the person comes and maybe there is some famous knitting lady. A lot of people pay tons and tons of money. Most people, if you -- anybody listening to this, if you have gone to seminars or you have met people at masterminds or something like that. You know how excited you get to meet people and it is funny because you meet your big heroes and then you are like, “Oh, really, that’s it?” I can't tell you how many times it had happened which I am not starstruck like whatsoever anymore, I could not care less, because there are just people that are good whatever they do, but the point is people pay a lot of money for that. Think of let's just say, Justin Bieber, right. Justin Bieber is a big hit, I guarantee you that there are parents that would spend at least $10,000 for their, little like 15-year-old girl or whatever -- I would imagine 15-year-old girls like Justin Bieber. I guarantee you, there is a market for him charging $10,000 to $50,000 for like a couple of hours and I guarantee you that there are 15-year-old girls’ fathers who would pay that to give their little girl the privilege to do that. I absolutely guarantee, it is going to happen. The point is, how about them? That is kind of where we are going back to, and it does not have to be -- if you have this, you kind of have like a value ladder. If your product is $100 maybe don't go up to like $10,000 right away. Do $100 and then do like $500, $1000 and then $5000 or $10,000. You should have kind of different levels for different purposes and typically it goes -- like an information product is may be a couple $100 and then you go up to like maybe -- Shaun: A group coaching? Jeremy: Yeah, or like templates kind of depends on the market but like templates might be a little bit more or group coaching and then one-on-one coaching and then one-on-one coaching for longer or done for you. You kind of like see how that progress upwards, that is the main point there is most people don't have a backend and when I work with people doing webshares and even clients and stuff like that, usually the clients -- instead of me building it for them, it is basically like, “Hey, do this.” Here is what I think should be the next step for us and then just let me know like when you are done and then we will implement it into the funnel. That is what I kind of do with a lot of clients that are more of like the one-on-one clients. Like I said, just don't limit yourself. don't have that mental block in your mind that, “oh, people won’t pay that amount of money” because they will. I mean, it is just a fact of life they will. So don't let that be kind of excuse. Shaun: Right. Plus, too, you use it as a positioning tool. Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. Again, like we talked about before. Even if nobody buys it obviously don't charge a ton of money if you can't deliver that value. I always -- you should be able to deliver at least 5 to 10 times that value. So from my $100,000 program that I am going to be coming out with, by the way, if anybody is interested in hearing that we can kind of talk about, you can help me, we kind of strategize the whole thing, but I will do extra stuff for you too by the way. In that, I am looking for ways like when I sit down to plan that out and exactly what I am going to do for people, I already know what I am going to do for them. Basically, the same thing I do every day but just way, way, way, way, way more deep, but I am going to just map it out for people so that it is easier to understand, because you can't say, “oh give me a $100,000 so what are you going to do for me?” I don't know, some stuff. I am going to help you grow, it is not very sexy. So I am going to map that out but when I am mapping that out and actually putting bullet list of like exactly what I am going to do for people, I am going to be looking at, okay, I am charging these people $100,000 over a year, that means that I need to make them at least $500 to a million dollars, $500,000 to $,1,000,000 in trackable results. The people that I am going to be working with are not going to be $200,000 businesses. They are going to be in the 7 to 8 figures. I am not looking for a lot of clients obviously. In that range, if I get a couple in a year, that is awesome and that is really all I even want for that level of service because -- Shaun: And then we’d be (inaudible 00:48:48). Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. I mean there is only a couple that you can do before I have to expand the team further and stuff like that, but anyway, I think we kind of hit the point on the backend. The next one is missing the crucial touch points in the email sequence, and first of all, people just typically don't have good emails, people think that you just sit like, “oh, I need a prospect sequence” and it is like, “oh, I am not going to hire anybody because --“ Shaun: Maybe explain what the prospect sequence is. Jeremy: Yeah, that is a good idea. A prospect sequence is basically when you bring people in and we are talking about before a lead magnet, something free of value, it could be an automated webinar, it could be a free rapport or video or whatever it is, something with online like a chiropractor, it could be -- bring them in for a free 20-minute massage or free backtracking, which actually, I have to go to chiropractor today because my neck still hurts from a month ago. When Shaun was in here we were lifting together and we were doing shoulder presses and so I was the first one to notice it. This is really weird my right shoulder just feels like so much more weak than my left shoulder. I was throwing the last one up with my left shoulder, it was just going right up in my right when I was struggling to get it up, I don't know what is going on with my right shoulder. So we went through -- I mean both of us, it had to be like (inaudible 00:50:17). Shaun: Yeah, yeah, I felt it to, but I did not say anything. Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, and so we are looking and it turns out we had 5 extra pounds on the right weight set and we were lifting like that, I mean, I think that is what threw my neck out because I woke up the next day and I can barely like move my neck. I had to take them in and I hate pain killers. I have to take them for like a week straight. So I finally went to the chiropractor and I am still going every week. So I have to go later today. They have been helping but it is still a little bit off. Going back to email sequence, first of all, you have to have a way to keep in touch with people who come to your business, because if you don't do that, they are going to forget about you. Just plain and simple. Shaun: You would say that we are talking to the people who have not bought from us yet? Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, these are prospects, yeah. Email sequence that can be for anything. That can be for prospects, it could be for buyers. You have to strategize them. You have to map them out. You can't just -- so many people are like “Oh, I’m just going to do my emails” all you really have to do is keep in touch with them and they will buy, and it is like, “No, that’s not it.” You have to overcome the objections because when people come, they are going to have objections as to why they are going to buy. They are going to be looking at you and comparing you against your competitors. So I mean, think of anything that you have ever bought in your entire life. You went through a process, a mental process where you sat there and you said, “Okay, I need X product.” And they you will go and you will look at probably like 2 or 3 different people who provide that product or service and then you look at it and you say, “Okay, this person does this thing, this one is cheaper, but they get a better result” you see, you kind of do all these in your head. Well, why not just get them into your sequence, into your funnel and do all that thinking for them. You know what I mean, and show that -- why-- Shaun: For me, a good example is like when you go to the restaurant. If you go to the restaurant, there is a great waiter, they are going to open the menu, they are going to recommend 2 or 3 things in the menu and you will like, “Oh, well that is incredible” you probably going to buy one of those, once you go there and they just give you menu (inaudible 00:52:33) menu and you look at the picture like, “what’s that?” you’ll pick something at random. Jeremy: Yeah. Exactly, that is actually a really good example. Think of the last time you went to a restaurant and if you were lucky enough to have a server who did that for you, because it does not happened often, but I know when -- this happened to me a couple of times and when it happens I almost always buy what they talked about. Shaun: I got a funny story about that. I went with my wife one time and she was like trying on a pair of jeans and the cashier was like, “Hey, what are you doing?” and I was like, “She is in there trying the jeans” and she say, “Hey, I saw you are looking at the jeans, you want to try them on?” We walked out spending like $400, I don't want to buy anything. Jeremy: Yeah, that is why car dealerships give you rides in the car because you get emotionally attached to that specific car. My neighbor actually just bought a Porsche by the way. He just bought the Porsche like a day after you left. I came home and I was sitting in his driveway I was like, “Oh, man, Shaun would have love it.” Yeah, if you are able to get into the mind of the person that you are trying to sell your product to and come at them in a very authentic way, there is a couple of things that you need to do in your emails and this is really buyer’s or prospects. First of all, you need to overcome all the objections they are having. So with dating, it is like, “Oh, I’m too fat to get a date” or “I’m too ugly or I’m too dumb” I mean, they have all these things like going on inside their head. It is basically low -- Shaun: What if she says no? Jeremy: Yeah, what if she says no, I can't approach them, I am too nervous and that kind of thing. So you have to overcome them and we just wrote this. We did a very good job in doing that. You also have to -- once you have overcome the objections, then they are like, “Okay, I’m going to do this.” I am going to hire a dating coach, and then its, okay, “who do I hire?” then you come back and you say, “well here is why you should work with me.” I have done that a couple split-tests actually with comparison charts where you -- like on, just for example, like a supplement page, where you compare your product against the other ones and they usually increase conversions by like 15% plus, like you cross the board and all the test that you have ever done and it is just because people have -- it goes to show you like the proof, I mean people, in their mind or physically, are researching you against your competitors and when people hire me I know that they are looking at me and may be one or two or three whatever other people to help them with their sales funnels. Shaun: And that actually is a good tactic thing, encourage them to look at the competition. Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. I mean if you provide something better, you could go so crazy as if you -- Let's just say that -- Let's pick a random example. Let's just say that you have a martial arts studio and you know that your service is just light years beyond everybody else. You can actually say, “look, go try them out then come try me out, and if you like them better, I will actually pay for 3 months membership for you.” Think about the confidence that would give you in that person to go with that. You probably think like “Oh my god, I am just going to go with you and not waste my time with the other person” just think of it that way, I mean that might be a little bit too much for most people, but if you really want to grow, I mean you do stuff like that. For us, maybe I should be doing this. This is like, hey look go look at them, look at their results, look at how they treat you, look what they do after they work with you. Shaun: Actually, we just had a client who did that. Jeremy: That is true, yeah. Because he said all this and this and then I realized I was missing something in the -- I think it was like 2 different things in the way that I was approaching him so we fixed that immediately and then got him as a client. We are working with him now, it is a pretty big project. It is just because, again, people are doing that research in their head. So instead of them coming to conclusion, your email should allow them to come to your conclusion, if that make sense. There are several things that you need in your emails. Number 1, you have to bond with them, like I said, you have to overcome their objections first of all. You have to bond with them because if they don't like you as a person, first of all that is fine. There are a lot of people that probably don't like me, they don't like -- whatever, my voice, my personality, or whatever -- the way that I talk about my kids, they send an email out today with a picture of Logan in it because it was just hilarious. Whatever that is, that is okay, you don't want to attract everybody. You want to purposely have a very, very specific personality in the way that you do things so that people who resonate with that immediately bond with you and then they will start listening to you, you gain their attention because you have to get their attention first before they will start listening to you. So you get their attention, then you overcome the objections and then once the objections are overcome they come to a conclusion that they are going to buy -- they need the solution for whatever their problem is, then you have to show them that you are the solution, okay. You kind of do this like intertwine -- Shaun: Yeah, I mean for me, when I am writing emails, I could put myself in their shoes like, oh men I have been there, I know what is like. I have had the struggles. I solely made it through. This is how I can help you the same. Jeremy: Yeah, exactly. It is not really a linear process because people are in different stage of this. It is not the exact same thing for everybody. One person might take 3 months to make a decision whereas the other person takes 3 minutes. So you kind of have to put like all of this as fast as you can, it is kind of like a very delicate thing. You can't just overcome objections, you have to overcome objections, bond and show them why you are the best all at the same time, that make sense. And that is why it is so important to get it done -- get everything all the stuff done professionally because if you are coming at it from a point of view where it is like, “Oh I’m great, I’m awesome. Work with me. Hire me, buy my stuff.” It does not come across as genuine, but if you come across and you know this, we kind of adopted like the more of like a J. Abraham type of approach where it is a very genuine and authentic and coming from place of why they need you and not why you need them. So, it is like, when I am talking clients on the phone, it is like, “look, I am going to help you, you need help in your business” whatever the thing is, you are stuck, you are in a plateau mode, you just want to make more money, a lot of people they just send me they just want to do better, which is (inaudible 00:59:39) I mean we are doing very, very well but we just want to make better because we are entrepreneurs. It is just how we are. You have to just help them come into that conclusion that you are there to help them. It makes such a difference and I wish I had an email up here to show specific example but it is like, I always -- a lot of times in my copy, I use the phrase, “you don’t deserve it.” You don't deserve to be overweight. You deserve to be fit and healthy and have a nice butt and have big biceps or whatever the case is and that completely switches it. Instead of saying, “oh I am going to help you lose weight and because I have done this and I have done that and I have this technique, look, you don’t deserve to live a life where you don't feel confident and when you put your clothes on, you are embarrassed to lock out the door and blah, blah. Do you see the difference there? It is just night and day in the way that they perceived, whatever it is that you are telling. That is why people -- I say this all the time, Yes, you can technically have a sales funnel but you have to do it right properly. If you have a landing page and a sales letter and an up sell and emails, yes, technically, you have a sales letter, but that does not mean you have it done the right way, that does not mean you are maximizing your potential. If your lead magnet, whatever you give him away for free, if it does not match what you are selling, it does not take people and lead them to the next thing, you are not going to do very well. Shaun: And all that is engineered when we sit down with somebody and write out their sales funnel. Jeremy: Exactly, yeah. I mean that is -- we are very, very strategically, it is not just like -- if you are selling weight loss it is not just like, “Let's just make a report”, I don't know. Shaun: Yeah, (inaudible 00:01:47). Jeremy: Yeah, like 7 ways that -- eating more salad can make you feel better and then the course is about like bodybuilding. I mean, there is such a disconnect there, it has to be -- the report has to --. Here is a good example, we just did one for -- we have been working with NuWave. There is probably a lot of people on here that have NuWave ovens and NuWave stove tops, right, the infomercial product. So we are working with their company and one of the things that they are doing, they have another kind of like subset or offset whatever, they are called Duralon pans. So these awesome nonstick pans are really safe for you. The nonstick itself is just - it just works better than anything I’ve ever had. So the thing that we are doing first is we are driving cold traffic to a page where they get a free pan, it is like a free plus shipping thing and I think it is $6.95 or $7.95. Shaun: That is an insane deal. Jeremy: Oh my god, it is awesome. The pans are ridiculous. Again, if you want me to send the page just let me know. It is actually in the process of being designed right now. So that is the -- basically like the tripwire, that is to use the coined phrase. So they come there and it is just ridiculously awesome offer and then the off sell to that is not like how to cook better which would not be too bad, but it is not that connected. The off sell is, okay, now you have this pan, how about you buy the whole set? It is a perfect relation to what they are buying because it is like, okay, you have this pan, Let's use that and we actually don't even push them that hard. In the buyer’s email sequence, we have -- I think there was like 10 emails after it go out for 45 days or something like that. In that sequence, we are not trying to sell them immediately. Shaun: Well, the thing about that pan is, it sells itself because it is so good. Jeremy: Oh yeah, and that is why talking about engineering everything, that is why when we were strategizing the buyer’s sequence it is not -- we weren’t like, “oh hey, you got this, buy the whole set.” We offer that because we know some people are going to do that immediately, but we don't push that. What we push is getting them to use the pan because we know that, that pan is so good that when they use it, and I actually thought this idea because it happened to me. I use the pan the first time and I was like, “Wow, this thing is awesome” and now I am actually getting the whole set myself. Shaun: I remember that. Jeremy: We specifically engineered and this comes down to strategizing. Most people don't think about this in depth. They kind of just like, “Oh, Let's just throw a bunch of emails in there” and this does not work. It has to be very strategically engineered. So what we are doing is the first like, it is like the first 5 or 6 emails are getting them just to use the pan, and it is like reminding them to use the pan, “hey, you know, it is going to be there tomorrow” getting them excited about it before it comes. Shaun: And that is one thing too, I mean, we go on and on and on about that. You will be surprised how much people don't utilize the product after they bought it. Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, I mean that is why I was just talking to a guy named Mike Weiss yesterday. We are actually speaking of doing joint ventures. I am talking to him and he has built a membership kind of platform and what it is, is when you have an online course and again, if you want (inaudible 01:05:05) just let me know. If you have an online course, most people I forget the statistics, it was like, I think it was like 90% of personal development products and like 97% of business opportunity products or any kind of like marketing product that kind of thing. That many people don't use it, right? Shaun: Right, myself included. Jeremy: That is why when you have products and you have -- even if you have a backend, most people are not doing it because they need -- they already spent money and if they don't get a result from the first thing, why would they do business with you again if they never got result from the first thing. It is not -- I mean it is kind of your fault. Basically, it is not your fault that they did not get a result because they did not use it, but it is your responsibility to get them to use it to then write the result, you know what I mean? So if you want like -- I tell a lot of clients that -- if you want to increase your backend, get more people to actually use the first thing they bought and that is why I always harp on doing buyer’s sequences because that is -- typically, the first half of the buyer’s sequence is to get them -- I (inaudible 01:06:27) a personal coach campaign is to get them to use whatever they just bought, and then the second half it starts to s