Podcasts about de'vannon

INTRODUCTION:I'm a trauma-informed coach, professional singer and keynote speaker. I help people build resilience to fear and manage mental health so they can radiate confidence in front of any audience. I'm studying psychology at Queen's University and will be publishing my first book very soon!!! I love deep connection and having great conversations that uplift, inspire and help others.Over the last two decades, I've performed in front of THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE and struggled with astonishing stage fright most of the way. I used to try and “fight” my fears, achieve perfection and never show weakness. All that did was weaken me further, induce a deep sense of loneliness from abandoning myself and turn my fear into a monster. Eventually, this way of living devoured my physical and mental health. After avidly studying psychology and trauma since 2014, what was once my fear has now become my FUEL. I founded Fearce Academy to provide the mental health, emotional intelligence, confidence and leadership skills I lacked coming up in the entertainment industry, especially around mindset and fear. I was taught that fear is a weakness, but after years of fighting fears and losing, it's clear now that fear is just an untapped source of fuel. When honed, fear can actually become our friend.INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      God Has Not Given Us The Spirit Of Fear…No, He Did Not·      Being Afraid Of What You Are In Love With·      When Janey Met P!nk At Yoga!!!·      Our Thoughts On Alanis Morrissette ·      Manufactured Artists vs. The Real Deal·      Signing By Janey & De'Vannon·      Narcissistic Personality Disorder vs. Borderline Personality Disorder·      The Importance Of Awareness·      Trauma Informed Therapy Is A Must!·      Soooo Much Potential!!! CONNECT WITH JANEY BROWN:Website: https://janeybrown.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/janeybrownTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@janeybworldYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/janeybrownFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/janeybworldInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/janeybworld/Twitter: https://twitter.com/JaneyBworldLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janeybrown/  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON:Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.com   Spiritual Services: https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/magical-lessons/Donate Via PayPal: https://shorturl.at/gq068CashApp: $DeVannonSeraphinoVenmo: @DeVannonSeraphino Patreon: https://patreon.com/SDJPodcastTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMSupport the showThanks for listening! Please donate at SexDrugsAndJesus.com and follow us on TikTok, IG etc.

In this episode, I invited the divine podcaster De'Vannon onto the podcast to discuss Black fetishization. Some of the topics discussed include De'Vannon days selling meth and meeting with white men, our personal experience with being fetishized, findom requests, and swinger parties. Subscribe today and join the conversation!   De'Vannon Hubert is the author of Sex, Drugs, and Jesus, a memoir about his struggles with drug dealing, drug addiction, homelessness, serving in the Armed Forces, contracting HIV and HEP B, and rejection from his church for his sexuality. He is also the host of the Sex, Drugs, and Jesus Podcast and is the owner of DownUnder Apparel. De'Vannon's story is one of surviving the social outskirts and finding one's way back to a balanced path.   Find his podcast and book at https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/ and visit is online store at https://www.downunderapparel.com/. You can find De'Vannon's newly released book for free at this link: https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/dont-call-me-a-christian/.   Follow and Support the Podcast Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/heauxliloquy Twitter: @Heauxliloquy (https://www.twitter.com/heauxliloquy) Website: https://www.heauxliloquy.com Vernon's book: https://amzn.to/3vsZDm5 Vernon's IG: UrFavHeauxst (https://www.instagram.com/UrFavHeauxst/)   Crisis and Psychological Resources Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network https://www.rainn.org 800-656-HOPE (4673) National Suicide Prevention Lifeline https://www.988lifeline.org 800-273-TALK (8255) Text or call 988 National Domestic Violence Hotline https://www.thehotline.org 800-799-7233 Text START to 88788 Find A Therapist American Psychological Association (https://www.apa.org/topics/crisis-hotlines) Psychology Today (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/family-marital) Therapist Locator (https://www.therapistlocator.net/) Access additional resources on Open Counseling (https://blog.opencounseling.com/hotlines-us/) Open Counseling also has a list of International Hotlines (https://blog.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines/)   Slaytor's Playhouse on the Web Slaytor's Playhouse: https://slaytorsplayhouse.com SP Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/slaytorsplay SP YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfS8UcvYHLtiDsfqQqTLJeg Coaching services available through Slaytor's Playhouse (https://bit.ly/3Deizss) Donate to Slaytor's Playhouse (https://bit.ly/3qDGUTF)   Referrals and Affiliates If you are interested in signing up for Episodic Sound and accessing their list of royalty free music, please use my affiliate link (https://www.epidemicsound.com/referral/2mj5fk).   If you are interested in joining the podcasting world and creating your own podcast, check out PodBean (https://www.podbean.com/topheauxpod). Sign up today and get one month free.   Sponsorship Looking to sponsor the podcast? Email Slaytor's Playhouse at info@slaytorsplayhouse.com.   The Heuaxliloquy Podcast Media Kit (https://bit.ly/35U78Kg)   If you are an advertiser trying to reach a new market, check out PodBean Advertising (https://sponsorship.podbean.com/topheauxpod). Use the link to get up to $100 credits for running your first ad on PodBean.

Check it out on Spotify: https://spoti.fi/33Z4VsE Check it out on Apple: https://apple.co/3AHc2DT How to Meet Anybody with Steve Buzogany Episode: https://apple.co/3zuud1y De'Vannon Hubert is the author of Sex, Drugs and Jesus, a memoir about his struggles with drug addiction, drug dealing, homelessness, serving in the Armed Forces, contracting HIV and HEP B, and rejection from his church for his sexuality. De'Vannon is also the author of Don't Call Me A Christian, a book about his views on the catastrophe that is modern Christianity. De'Vannon is also the host of the Sex, Drugs and Jesus Podcast and is the owner of DownUnder Apparel - A lingerie and sportswear store for men and women. Aside from this, De'Vannon is an Honorably discharged veteran of the United States Air Force and a graduate of both Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and the Hypnosis Motivation Institute. He also graduated from the Medical Training College of Baton Rouge and is a Licensed Massage Therapist. De'Vannon's story is one of surviving the social outskirts and finding one's way back to a balanced path. Dreams: Sell a Million Copies of the Memoir and have it become a movie. Finish a Poetry Book and another book about his past relationships. Use the books as a conversation for multiple families Expand his clothing line on Down Under Get a condo or house in Porta Vaierta Spiritual intentionality: Prayer, Fasting, Reading Spiritual Texts Introduce Them to: Oprah Madonna Favorite Book, Movie, or Podcast: Favorite Books are the Dune Series Contact them at: https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/ --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/timothy-douglas0/support

Check it out on Spotify: https://spoti.fi/33Z4VsE Check it out on Apple: https://apple.co/3AHc2DT How to Meet Anybody with Steve Buzogany Episode: https://apple.co/3zuud1y De'Vannon Hubert is the author of Sex, Drugs and Jesus, a memoir about his struggles with drug addiction, drug dealing, homelessness, serving in the Armed Forces, contracting HIV and HEP B, and rejection from his church for his sexuality. De'Vannon is also the author of Don't Call Me A Christian, a book about his views on the catastrophe that is modern Christianity. De'Vannon is also the host of the Sex, Drugs and Jesus Podcast and is the owner of DownUnder Apparel - A lingerie and sportswear store for men and women. Aside from this, De'Vannon is an Honorably discharged veteran of the United States Air Force and a graduate of both Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and the Hypnosis Motivation Institute. He also graduated from the Medical Training College of Baton Rouge and is a Licensed Massage Therapist. De'Vannon's story is one of surviving the social outskirts and finding one's way back to a balanced path. Dreams: Sell a Million Copies of the Memoir and have it become a movie. Finish a Poetry Book and another book about his past relationships. Use the books as a conversation for multiple families Expand his clothing line on Down Under Get a condo or house in Porta Vaierta Spiritual intentionality: Prayer, Fasting, Reading Spiritual Texts Introduce Them to: Oprah Madonna Favorite Book, Movie, or Podcast: Favorite Books are the Dune Series Contact them at: https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/ --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/timothy-douglas0/support

In this episode, I invited the divine podcaster De'Vannon onto the podcast to discuss gender. Some of the topics discussed include how gender is fluid, cultural differences related to gender, and lingerie. Subscribe today and join the conversation!   De'Vannon Hubert is the author of Sex, Drugs, and Jesus, a memoir about his struggles with drug dealing, drug addiction, homelessness, serving in the Armed Forces, contracting HIV and HEP B, and rejection from his church for his sexuality. He is also the host of the Sex, Drugs, and Jesus Podcast and is the owner of DownUnder Apparel. De'Vannon's story is one of surviving the social outskirts and finding one's way back to a balanced path.   Find his podcast and book at https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/ and visit is online store at https://www.downunderapparel.com/. You can find De'Vannon's newly released book for free at this link: https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/dont-call-me-a-christian/.   Follow and Support the Podcast Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/heauxliloquy Twitter: @Heauxliloquy (https://www.twitter.com/heauxliloquy) Website: https://www.heauxliloquy.com Vernon's book: https://amzn.to/3vsZDm5 Vernon's IG: UrFavHeauxst (https://www.instagram.com/UrFavHeauxst/)   Crisis and Psychological Resources Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network https://www.rainn.org 800-656-HOPE (4673) National Suicide Prevention Lifeline https://www.988lifeline.org 800-273-TALK (8255) Text or call 988 National Domestic Violence Hotline https://www.thehotline.org 800-799-7233 Text START to 88788 Find A Therapist American Psychological Association (https://www.apa.org/topics/crisis-hotlines) Psychology Today (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/family-marital) Therapist Locator (https://www.therapistlocator.net/) Access additional resources on Open Counseling (https://blog.opencounseling.com/hotlines-us/) Open Counseling also has a list of International Hotlines (https://blog.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines/)   Slaytor's Playhouse on the Web Slaytor's Playhouse: https://slaytorsplayhouse.com SP Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/slaytorsplay SP YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfS8UcvYHLtiDsfqQqTLJeg Coaching services available through Slaytor's Playhouse (https://bit.ly/3Deizss) Donate to Slaytor's Playhouse (https://bit.ly/3qDGUTF)   Referrals and Affiliates If you are interested in signing up for Episodic Sound and accessing their list of royalty free music, please use my affiliate link (https://www.epidemicsound.com/referral/2mj5fk).   If you are interested in joining the podcasting world and creating your own podcast, check out PodBean (https://www.podbean.com/topheauxpod). Sign up today and get one month free.   Sponsorship Looking to sponsor the podcast? Email Slaytor's Playhouse at info@slaytorsplayhouse.com.   The Heuaxliloquy Podcast Media Kit (https://bit.ly/35U78Kg)   If you are an advertiser trying to reach a new market, check out PodBean Advertising (https://sponsorship.podbean.com/topheauxpod). Use the link to get up to $100 credits for running your first ad on PodBean.

INTRODUCTION: Award-winning health expert Nicole Kerr is the co-author of Eating the Rainbow: Lifelong Nutritional Wellness—Without Lies, Hype, or Calculus. She has appeared on CNN, PBS, CBS, ABC, the Food Channel, and a host of other TV and radio shows to share her unique perspective on wellness, lifestyle, and nutrition.   For the past 30 years, Nicole has worked in all sectors of society, including ingovernment (the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention), non-profit(American Cancer Society), military (United States Air Force Medical Operations),academia (University of Hawaii), healthcare institutions/hospitals (AdventistHealth Castle and Queens Medical Center), corporate settings (Sea Ties, LLC),and private consultation. Nicole's warm, engaging presentations have earned hera place in front of international audiences ranging from corporate foodproducers to health and medical associations. Throughout her career, she hasfocused on supporting people from every walk of life to make realistic,meaningful, happy choices for lifelong health and well-being.When she was a 19-year-old cadet at the United States Air Force Academy, Nicolewould be forced to learn how to live and love differently following aterrifying and transformative Near-Death Experience. Her memory of the crashcame back 20 years later, and it has taken Nicole almost another two decades toalign her soul, spirit, mind, and body, proving healing is certainly anon-linear process.A disabled veteran, Nicole now maintains a private practice primarily using NeuroEmotional Technique (NET) targeting the often overlooked domains of emotional,energy, and spiritual well-being.   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Spirits & Angels·      Second Chances·      Near Death Experiences (NDE's)·      Louisiana State University Nostalgia·      Religious Trauma·      Military Trauma·      Living With Fear·      PTSD·      Struggle Acquiring Veteran's Affairs Disability & Compensation·      Why Perspective Is Everything CONNECT WITH NICOLE: Website & Book: https://www.nicolekerr.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/nicole.a.kerrInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicole.angelique.kerr/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-kerr-8920438/ CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:    https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse & Codependency Support Groups (Virtual) - https://www.meetup.com/pittsburgh-narcissism-survivor-meetup-group/·      COSA – 12 Step Recovery For Victims Of Compulsive Sexual Behavior - https://cosa-recovery.org·      A Recommended Reading To Help Heal From Narcissism - https://amzn.to/41sg6FO·      Sex Addicts Anonymous: HTTPS://WWW.SAA.ORG ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]De'Vannon: You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.Have you had a near death experience? Have you felt that feeling where your life was either slipping away from you or you did actually slip away from this plane of existence and stepped into that white light? Saw your ancestors, spoke with angels. Well, if you have, you're not alone. My guest today, Nicole Kerr, has written a book called You Are Deathless, and in this book she details her experience being 19 years old, the cadet at the Air Force Academy in [00:01:00] Colorado, flying through the window of a convertible. Well, let's just say, I'll leaveall the gory details of what happened after that for you to listen to in this episode. She died, she came back to life, and now she's dedicated her life to helping other people live free of fear in this episode. We'll talk about everything from Angels to Louisiana State University to P T S D, to Veterans Affairs, drama, religious Trauma. You name it, we got it . So listen in, pay close attention and know that I love you.Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Devon, and it is so lovely to see you as always. My guest today, her name is Nicole krs. She's an author and she has a bunch of acronyms. She's gonna explain to us what they mean in a minute, but their mph, h and r d n and b t d t [00:02:00] and n d e and all of these beautiful things.And she's an award-winning health expert. She's also a disabled Air force veteran like I am. Thank you for your service girl, and thank you. She has appeared on C N N P B S C B S A B C P Y T, all the different networks, the food channel, and a host of other TV and radio shows. And we're gonna talk about second and third chances today in health and wellness.How are you, Nicole? Nicole: I'm doing great. I am just delighted, excited, and grateful to be on your podcast today. So thank you very much, De'Vannon: Amsterdam Lutely, thank you for setting aside an hour of your life. Time is one of the resources that we cannot create more of as you well know. And so I don't take for granted what you choose to do with a whole hour.This, this is very, very special to me, so I appreciate the fuck out Nicole: of it. Aw, thank you. Likewise. De'Vannon: [00:03:00] Okay, so are y'all, Nicole like we, like we were just saying, was in the Air Force. There was a bad car accident. She died, she came back and this is kind of what set her story into motion. And so we'll be talking a lot about that.Many of us have had near death experiences, as have I. And so we'll chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. But before we get into that, let's talk a little bit about your education. You, you were saying that you went to L S U. I'm here in Baton Rouge. I go over to Lssu all the time. I, you see it, I party up there, tailgate up there and everything.So tell me about LSU for you. Nicole: I. L s u That was a stop for me where I got my dietetics certification and my brother also graduated from there. And we lived in Jackson, Mississippi for a long time and then moved down to Baton Rouge with my dad and brother's company called Yasu, the big Will mowing machines.So [00:04:00] that was the family business. And so I lived down there for several years while I was getting my Like I said, my nutrition and diet dietetics degree because I had developed an eating do eating disorder binge eating. It was called compulsive eating back in 1980 something when I first got it.But I did not get any mental health after my traumatic experience. My parents told the doctor when they said, Nicole needs to see a psychologist that Jesus and God was my psychologist. And needless to say, shortly after that I developed an eating disorder because I didn't know what to do with the pain and I didn't even know it was pain.So that lasted almost 40 years until I got married at 40. And then I've, I've worked hard. I've been in therapy. You name it, I've done it. And It just, you know, Jesus never came down and sat across from me and tried to help me, you [00:05:00] know, either talk therapy or any of these other modalities. And that's just not true.And it was really a disservice to me to not get the mental health. I had to pursue that on my own. And it was, it was challenging. De'Vannon: They used to say and damn, I'm so sorry that that happened to you. They're. You know, you already have like this near death trauma, now you've got religious trauma being pumped upon you too.They used to tell us in church to not be so heavenly minded that you're not so earthly good.It look. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's what you get, get when now my parents, I call 'em religious addicts, but I did my formative years in Jackson, Mississippi and then I'm a people recovering people pleaser and I was pleasing. My dad, he was in the military. He was one of the first classes to go through the Air Force Academy and at that time [00:06:00] they had opened it, just opened it up to women to come to go into the service academy.So I was the sixth class of women. He was so proud of me that I got in. I was shocked that I did cuz I absolutely had no interest in the military. All of my background in high school and junior high was. Modeling junior achievement team boards nothing related to flying planes or going into this space program.So clearly I did it just for him. And let me tell you, that was the wrong reason. Cuz as soon as they dropped me off and closed the door and I went through that, bring me men wrap. My life changed and all of a sudden fear was the emotion and terror that dominated me. And my emotional state for at least the next year and a half until my crash happened.Because I was in constant fear that I was gonna fail, that I wasn't keeping [00:07:00] up. I was keeping my squadron, I was holding them back because I would fall outta runs. They sent me to remedial training. You know, I just didn't have that killer instinct. And I understand the reason we have a military, you know, to protect and defend, but every soul that goes into the military, in my opinion, is going to be fractured at some level.Because when you experience the theater or war and people being killed, or you know, You suffering parts of your soul fracture in order to preserve yourself. And so that's why we have so many injuries mentally, I think, and so many suicides with veterans especially, is because of that soul piece that just can't reconcile what they have seen and what they have done.So I knew in basic training that this was not for me, but I didn't know how to [00:08:00] quit. I didn't know how to say no to my father. Feel like a failure. The shame, the judgment, the condemnation. Cuz it takes a hell of a lot of work to get into academy. You gotta get a congressional rep nomination. You gotta pass all these tests.You, you know. And and I did it. And then I got there and I, I, three weeks into bootcamp, they gave us one phone call, three minutes. And I heard my mother pick up and she said, hello, and I hyperventilated and cried for three minutes. Then the commander comes in there and says, that's the end of your phone call.Go sit over there and get yourself together ke. And I was just like, I needed my parents to tell me I had permission to quit if I was, if this was not the place for me, I needed. To get out and I couldn't do it. And my mother turned to my father later and told me, what have we done to her? And he's like, ah, she'll be fine.And I [00:09:00] wasn't fine. I went from there to remedial, which is one-on-one, which is even worse, you know, because you're separated from your, your squadron. So it was that was the first panic attack I had. I didn't realize it until later, but I clearly lived with that level of fear and panic and pending doom dread.And it starts to just operate your system after a while. And it was really, I, I don't know. I, I don't know how I made it the first year, and then I knew the second year it was only gonna get tougher. And then that's when the crash happened. And I was getting a ride back with a fellow cadet who was a senior, didn't know him, but my dad had three rules, don't smoke, don't drink, and don't date upper cadets.Now I'm in a school with 4,000 guys. I'm now a sophomore. I actually can date you can't as a freshman, but I have never been on a date in my life. My dad did not. He was very conservative. He did not think dating [00:10:00] would do any good for me or spending the night with others. That was one of his commandments.There's the 10 commandments and there's my dad's 10 commandments. And spending the night with others was number one on, you do not do this. And even in church you don't sit with your friends, you have to sit with mom and dad. You can't fall asleep even though my dad fell asleep, you can't fall asleep.You know, it was, there was just a lot of rules. And having a Southern Baptist upbringing on my father's side and a Lutheran bringing on my mother's side living in the Bible belt, which is, as you know, the foundation of that area. I just got a lot of. Church thrown at me. And it was contradictory because the Lutherans were saying, this is the way to God.And the Baptists were saying this way. And, you know, it was just, I'm sure God was [00:11:00]confused, you know, about what, what he supposedly said. But that's when my car crash happened. And I know at a sole level that that is what got me out of the academy saving face because you, you know I couldn't go back. I, my injuries were so severe.I was in the hospital for four months, seven weeks in I c u two code Blues. And then 19 years later, I remembered my near death accident. I was working at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and went to Starbucks, got my coffee, and boom, the memory of how I was sitting in the Corvette convertible came back and And then the rest of the memory came back.So people said, well, why did it take 19 years? And I'm like, the only thing I can say to that is when your body feels safe enough, repressed memories as what they're known as will come up. [00:12:00]And that's what happened. And I got the complete story. And so I've been able now, 40 years later to finally publish my book.It's called You Are Deathless. And a near death experience taught me how to fully live and not fear death. It's taken me that long to first of all 20 years, had no memory, just the white lights. And then the next 20 was aligning myself and my search for body, soul, spirit, and mind to all come together.And it's been a journey, a healing journey, and it's not linear. A plus B does not equal C and the healing journey. That was a lot I just gave you.De'Vannon: Well, you know what, it sounded like you needed to get that out. I just, I'm happy to, to allow you to Nicole: do that. Plus southern girls, we can talk. De'Vannon: So, so take, [00:13:00] take me back though. Tell me what the, the MPH, H C R D and the B T D T stand Nicole: for. Okay. Master's in Public Health and, and I had an emphasis in nutrition and then R D N is registered dietician nutrition.So I've worked in hospitals. I was an oncology dietician, a wellness director B T D T I invented that or took it from somebody else, actually. Been there, done that. And that actually is my proudest letters of the alphabet after my name. Because experience trump's theory in any any day for me because it allows a person to have compassion sympathy and empathy.De'Vannon: Right. Ab a Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why I say I wish this, this country in a, i I, I do not feel like the United States is the greatest country on the world, you know, in the world or nothing like that due to, due to the lack of like, character, you know, and, and the [00:14:00] lack of love that prevails here.And I don't care how much money, how rich it's supposed to be like this, this is a deplorable country and I, I really wish that people had to go to the military and or had to wait tables or had to be a janitor or had to do something like that for like some amount of time. And there are countries that have those requirements because then more people, then everyone would have some version of been there, done that as opposed to standing over here and judging from a distance.Yes. So so, so the title of her book y'all is called You Are Deathless. And and it, and it. You know, talks about, like a lot of, you know, what she's talking about right now, her website. I just wanna tell everyone, you know, it's nicole kerr.com that we'll be going in the show notes that she has a great blog on there and all kinds of information and everything like that too.So take me back to this car accident. You said you're in a a [00:15:00] convertible Corvette. Yeah. Nicole: I don't know if you can see it. De'Vannon: Okay. Yeah, I can see it. Okay. Nicole: That's August 8th 19. That's afterwards. De'Vannon: Okay. So, so, so after they untangled you, so y you just showed a picture of the Corvette for those of you who are not watching on YouTube, and it's basically, it's like somebody like Godzilla took this car, picked it up, twisted it around, and then like tried to.Fold it together, so, yeah. Yeah. So it almost looks like, almost looks like a square, like a, like a block rather than a, a motor vehicle. And so they were able to, to open up that can, I guess they, they had to have gotten the jaws of life or something out for that. So we Nicole: actually flew out of it cuz it was a convertible and we didn't have seat.The, the car didn't even have seat belts back then. And so when he hit the side of a boulder, okay, I was getting a ride back with a senior cadet, didn't know him. We had [00:16:00] been in an Air force function. They had provided beer to underage cadets and they broke their own rules. The officers left before the cadets and I was one of the, I was the last to leave.And so I asked him for a ride back and he said, sure. He had his own agenda. He wanted to go to another bar. He wanted to watch the sunset at the Rocky Mountains i e make out. And I started getting really nervous cuz we had curfew 7 35. We had to be back at the academy. And I didn't wanna get in trouble this year because last year I was, I.Innocently doing favors for people and I would get in trouble. So I marched tours, I served demerits, I served confinements, I did it all. And I was like, I am not doing that this year. So I was really worried about the time element. And he tried to make a sexual pass at me. My memory later revealed and I said no.And he got really angry at me and jerked the steering wheel. The car fishtailed out, and this is at Black Forest [00:17:00] park in Monument, which is just outside the academy. He hit a huge boulder, moved the boulder, the car flipped. We were both thrown out. I was thrown into a ditch. Some bystanders were, were close by, they called 9 1 1.They came out to look at me and they couldn't get any signs of life. So they got a blanket and they covered me up. And then when the Tri Lake Fire Department, and you can kind of see. That was the front page of the newspaper. So they're working on me. And you can see the car landed on its top. Mm-hmm.Okay. So I was gone when I flew out from the windshield, that's when I called it Casper the ghost in the book. But I was just revealed in my meditation in August and the [00:18:00] book was published in August that it was my grandfather that came in the form of an angel and lifted me took me up and so I never hit the ground.I knew when I hit the ground I was gonna die. I knew it, but I went up instead in his arms, and we went to this space. It wasn't really a place, it was just a space. And that's when I, I was not in bodily form. I could see my body on the ground, I could see it in the ditch. It was just a corpse, a mangled corpse.And so this spirit, my grandfather, now I, I, we went to this space and I could hear other voices, other angels, other spirit guides. They weren't speaking English. I don't know what they were. I don't know how I heard them and understood them, but I did telepathy, whatever, but I could hear and communicate.And [00:19:00] so there were two angels next to me and they were saying, you meaning humans need to ask the angelic realm for help. That was the first message, is they're not gonna interfere in our lives unless we ask for help because of free will. We have choices. So that is one of the first messages is start connecting with your angelic realm.We all have at least one guardian angel that's assigned to us. Some of us have more, but start the relationship with your angels or any angels. And people say to me well that's kinda like when you ask the angels to help you for a parking space. I said, it works. It absolutely works because it's not about how big or small something is, it's about the relationship that you can count on them and you can trust them.And it may not look like what you want, but [00:20:00] they will send you signs. You just have to be open-minded. Then the second message that I wanna make sure people hear that I received was to tell people not to be afraid of death. And I was like, whoa, that's a big one. That's a real big one. And I, and so at that moment I knew I was gonna go back in that body and I didn't want to, I was like, no, I do, I, I wanna stay up here because up there death was, or, or that transformation of myself was absolute beauty light, the white light that I had seen.It wasn't the operating or theater room lights. It was, it was the light that almost every near death experience or ex, you know, has Raymond Moody who coined the term near death [00:21:00]experience, that is the single most. Common element that people report is seeing this bright white light, and it's clear, it's not blinding and it's just comforting.It's like you're cocooned in it and it's just so peaceful and beautiful. And the colors on the other side are just magical beyond the, what is it now? 125 cray color box? Is that what we're up to? So, you know, why would you wanna come back from that? There's no negativity at all. So it's, you know, in our.World. I think, you know, every book that's almost written around the subject of death is cloaked with this veil of doom and gloom and death has a cloud of depression and negativity around it. Throughout our culture and society and my own [00:22:00] experience, and I hope yours and others, hundreds of thousands of people because they have enough to have actually studied this and put a report together to list the 10 common lessons of NDEs.And they're, every single one of 'em is positive. And the first one is we do not die. Hence the title of my book. You are deathless. Yes, your physical, your physical body is gonna die decompose. But when you die, your energy body splits open and your soul leaves you and goes home. And we have many.Incarnations of our soul. This isn't our only rodeo. So that was the mission, and it's taken me, I found that out. Okay, think about this. 19 years, I had a gap in my memory. And then boom, it all comes together. And then I have to figure out, okay, what does [00:23:00] does that mean? Because when I died at 19, I was fearful of death.I had the concept of God from my southern. Baptist upbringing and Lutheran, where the teaching was, if you were a bad person that God was duality on one side, God loved you, he would protect you. He was you know, loving, kind. But if you broke the rules, if you were a bad person, if you were a sinner, you would go to a place called Hell where the wrath of God would come and you would burn eternally.Now, as a six-year-old growing up, that scares the wey outta you. So you live your entire life in fear of doing something bad. And I call that concept a vending machine concept of God, and it's not correct. It's a false belief that is not who or what God is. [00:24:00] Yes, take the first part of it, the positive. But that whole second part was invented by man to keep people in fear, which would keep you in control De'Vannon: on the on the aspects of angels.And I think it's, I think it's a beautiful experience that you had. I just wanted to like, like to, to remind people that, you know, when you're speaking you know, two angels and, you know, different things like that, you know, d don't forget to ask them, you know, like how they're doing, you know, cause they're not.And Nicole: thank them. Please thank them after they give you what you De'Vannon: need. They're not, they're not, they're not, they're not God. And you know, they get That's right. They can get run down too. You know, we, we see this illustrated in the book of Daniel in the Bible when Gabriel is coming to the deliver Daniel, his message when he was fasting for those [00:25:00] three weeks for the Nation of Israel.And, and Gabriel is telling Daniel that he was delayed because, you know an op an op, an opposition withstood him until the arch angel Michael came to help him. And so, so th so this, this illustration lets us know that angels have limitations if they have to eat Mannas, because eventually they get run down and they have to be regenerated.So for me, it's not all about accessing the spiritual realm to, to, to get shit from them. You know? So I think that, I think, I think it's important to, to speak. Whenever you're speaking about more than just acquisition than what you can get from them. And so just be like mindful of that people. Nicole: Yeah.And angels come in many forms. You know, they're earth angels and I talk about that. And my book, they're is a chapter called Calling All Angels because I know that the e m t [00:26:00] that brought me back to life was one of my angels. He was they had me covered up, okay. He gets there, he's the first one on the scene, 10 to 13 minutes later, so I'm clinically dead for that long.They had me, you know, under the, he takes the blanket off, he can't get any sign of life. So he does something called a sternal knuckle rub. Have you ever heard of that? It's where they, they go up your, your sternum and it's designed to elicit pain. It's a pain response that the medical team uses. And boy, if there's any sign of life in you that would respond to pain, it's that.So the only sign of life you got was my right eye flickered and my pupil dilated. Now, what do we say about eyes and our souls? De'Vannon: Eyes are the window to the soul. Nicole: Yes. At that moment, my soul came back in through my eye. [00:27:00] I was dead before they couldn't get anything. Okay? So my soul, it left when I was up in the air.Okay? My body split open two out. It went, it comes back when he's doing that and, and, and I often wonder, You know, why did you bring me back? You know? And cuz it's been painful and it's been a hard journey. But that is when the soul came back into my body and at that point he was able to get a blood pressure reading on me of 60 zero.Now that's pretty much dead anyway, but at least he could get that. And they got me these mask pants on. They'd just gotten 'em on the bus That forces all your blood up to your heart. I had had multiple injuries. I cut off my left foot, I severed my right wrist. My pelvis was broken on both sides. Had a rash from skidding on the, the payment of grow burn that went three levels deep, a [00:28:00]laceration between my anal and feature because I remembered sitting in the car.And my leg is on the dashboard and my other leg processes it. Do you remember sitting like that in a convertible? Put your leg on the dashboard De'Vannon: sounds so, so, so California, Nicole: don't ever do that. If you're in an accident, that's the absolute worst way to get injuries. So I cut up my, I had a, a hole between my anal and sphincter muscle and then a huge hole like this cut out of my left thigh.So I had damage to my nerves. Lost the feeling in that whole sexual area. So it was cuz I went butt up through the windshield and so that cut my foot and that injured that area. So, It was just about getting me stabilized that night, and the doctor on call was a maverick. She was the first woman [00:29:00]surgeon in Colorado Springs.She was the first woman to go to medical school at Jefferson College. Let me tell you. She said multiple times, this is not in my hands anymore, you know, whether Nicole makes it. And I just kept coming back to life. You know, I had a surgery code blue, they had to cut me up from here to here and. My parents were in the chapel praying and the surgical nurse went in there and said, we've lost Nicole.I'm so sorry. And so my dad's like, well, we need to figure out where to barrier. And mom's like, I don't believe it. And then two minutes later another surgical nurse runs in and said her heart just started again. And and there was another incident where I had another near death experience and I have an angel that named James that is, that protects me.And I know that sounds weird, but I call him my military angel, but he is here to make sure I [00:30:00] get this message out because. There is no need to fear death. And there's so many of us that have been conditioned or brought up with belief systems where we scare, we're scared of death. And here's the deal.It's gonna happen at every one of us, and it could happen at any age. And that's the other thing is we need to start learning to prepare ourselves not only physically with wills and all that other stuff, but E, but emotionally and spiritually. And understanding that your beliefs about God, whatever that concept of God is, shapes your relationship with death.Because if you believed, like I did when I died, I disobeyed my father, and that's what he told me later when he came to the hospital. I. You had two beers, you smoked one cigarette. And this is [00:31:00]the first time I've done this in my life. At 19, I'm finally gonna have fun. Okay. And you were with a cadet and you kissed him, he kissed you.So in his eyes, I broke his rules and I deserved to quote what I got. So I disappointed God as well. And I have spent you not believe how much therapy I've had to try to let go of that being blamed. And it fractured my relationship with my parents and with my siblings because I felt so guilty about that.And I've been trying to make it up all these years. And then in the epilogue, you're not gonna believe this, but there were four roommates, four women that went in in my class at the same time in my squadron and my roommate. She dropped out. She quit that December of my accident. Okay? [00:32:00] So I had not talked to her in 38 years.I found her on Facebook. We, four girls got together this past May. The book was already at the editors ready to be published. And we all never knew what happened to her. She just never came back. After spring, after Christmas break, she said, Nicole, I'm so sorry. She said I caused the crash. I said, what? No you didn't.The guy did. He was drunk and he is making a pass at me. And you know, he crashed. And by the way, he survived. He even got to graduate cuz his dad wore three stars. But that's a whole nother story cuz rank has its privilege as we know. And she said, you had asked me for a ride back to the academy before the event even started.And I said, yes, we'll go back together. And then when it was over, There was another cadet who was drunk and he wanted me to drive his car back for him. And I really liked him and I wanted to be alone with [00:33:00] him. So when you got ready to get in the car, I told you no I really don't want you in the car.There's one other guy left over there, why don't you go get a ride back with him? And I said, but that guy's been drinking. And she said, oh, it doesn't matter. They've all been drinking. She said, it'll be fine. Just go have some fun, you know, and I'll see you back at the academy. And she never did. So she lived with 38 years of guilt and it still haunts her and she quit because she couldn't bear the thought that if she would've just given me a ride back, both of our lives would've been totally different.So you never know. And I never knew that. My memory part never came back of that conversation. And I said to her, why didn't you ever tell me before? And she goes, well, I just thought you knew. And you are angry at me. So it's so important to communicate trauma and your version of [00:34:00]something and someone else's version of something, because sometimes we just think somebody knows something, but we don't check it out with 'em, and then we go around believing something and it, it just devastates our life.You know, there, De'Vannon: there's so much loss in this life because of things left unsaid, be it in romantic relationships, business relationships. I agree with Nicole. Y'all open your fucking mouth and tell people what the hell you think, know and feel. Rather than assuming they should know or assuming they will know, magically know.Just make it simple. And just say it, even if you think you're stating the obvious, you know, sometimes you need to say the quiet part out loud because you know so much just to be sure everyone's on the same page. Yeah. You know it's, it's not cool to think that, you know, like in my, in my previous relationship that I, [00:35:00] that I just had to end.That, that was one of the things that, that my ex would never, you know, give me, I said, don't, don't ever have one version of reality operating within your head. And you know that I don't know that. Cuz then we're on divergent paths and I'm thinking that we're on the same page and really we're not. And you know, and the only way that that could have ever happened is if he would've opened his mouth and told me what he was feeling and thinking, which he never was able to do that.And so be it friendships or whatever the case may be, just fucking say what's going on rather than letting those negative thoughts come in and, and control you. You could disband that with clarity in communication. Nicole: Yes, and please do it before they die.Don't do it on their deathbed, you know, say the things you need to say now. And I, you know, and, and, and then I went and told my father, you know, dad, you know, I knew the guy was drunk and I, I just, you know, and I had [00:36:00] arranged a, a, a ride back and I was trying to defend myself to my father with this. And he says he still made a bad decision and you should have walked back to the academy.And then, That's when I just went, I haven't talked to my dad since, and I won't, I'm done with him. So, you know, and I was trying to be done with him before, but when he, he's never forgiven me. He's never said he is sorry. He is a narcissist. He is in that military mode my way or the highway. That's how we were raised.I know what's best for you. And he didn't, he never got to understand who I am. And when I published this book, he has not read it. And he just said, you better get God writer. You're really gonna get it. So there's just more fear and I'm just like, you know, my experience with God is God is love. Period, end of sentence, and love is all that matters and is the source of all that exists.And when you think about [00:37:00] source that is God and is there anywhere that God does not exist?De'Vannon: He is no ever president. He is everywhere. And video1562552333: in Nicole: my per, he's not external either. He's not, he's not out there to be looked for. He's within all of us. We are all eternal sparks of God. De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. What I, what I you know, you know, Jesus describes the death. Like he, you know, in the Bible he told us to to, to basically mourn when somebody is born in a rejoice when they die.Because Yeah. When when you They're Nicole: going back home. Yeah. When you, and they're not gonna remember any of this negative stuff. You know? It's like when I got over to the, to the other side God was all around me. God was in me. God, I, you know, I was God. God was present and fullness and oneness. And [00:38:00] most of all, God was love, pure, non-judgmental love.And in that state it was not that I suddenly had been forgiven for my mistakes, is that they no longer existed. Nothing I had done on Earth was being weighed or measured. It was simply the way my story had played out in one realm.So that's another lesson coming from the NDEs is part of the 10 of 'em is we are not judged. And I think one of the worst things we do to ourselves present day is we judge our thoughts, we judge our emotions, we judge our each other. And if we can just get rid of the judgment. That would be De'Vannon: huge, right?God is the God of mercy in, in the, you know, and you know, he [00:39:00] said, judge, not, you know, it's really just that simple. But, you know, we learn all of that judgment from broken people who have positions of authority over our lives, you know, and things like that in society. But that, you know, from the beginning it was not so.You know even the, I think video1562552333: that, Nicole: I think, yeah, I think that's one of the biggest issues I have with religion is the hypocrisy that goes on, especially with things like Jesus's words. I mean, when people say, who would you like to have dinner with? I said, Jesus, I would like to ask him what he thinks of how people have interpreted what he has, quote said or not said based on the Bible.Bless you. And one of the things is the judgment judge, not less G B B judged, you know, and they're judging. You because you're, you're gay because you're whatever the condition is. There's just [00:40:00] still so much judgment and, and it's causing so much fractionation and just anger and hatred and, and it, and it's just like, wow.That is not at all what Jesus meant by that. You know, it's, it's quit judging others and don't judge yourself because that just lowers your esteem and lowers your own vibration. Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: Right. Now, I'm curious some of the other, the common themes of near death experiences besides the white light. You, you said they had, they had done research to find some commonalities.What are some of the other commonalities? Okay. Nicole: We are never alone. That's a big one because people believe like when the with the pandemic, a lot of people were dying alone, but we are never alone. The spiritual realm is always around us and when we die, Angels, deceased, loved ones. Even our deceased [00:41:00] pets, they meet us.And so we, that's why you see people, like, they'll start grabbing at things as they're dying. You know, they'll, they'll, and you're going, what are they grabbing at? But it's like they're having a window into the other realm, across the ba. So they keep switching from that, that perspective to back here on earth, that perspective.And then they finally transition. But we are never alone. We always have a spiritual angel guy, somebody with us. And I think that's more from the human part of us that wants to be there for someone, for us to feel better about ourselves, that we were there. But I know, and I talk about this in the book, a lot of people choose to die when nobody is around.My brother-in-law died from a l s at 51. House full of people. He waited till everyone was out of his room [00:42:00] at some point in the night and passed. He did not want anybody else around him, you know, and I know other people's same situations. They had, had people monitoring, and when someone goes and gets a cup of coffee, the person, you know makes their transition.So I think that is up to the person. And you don't, you know, your, in my opinion, your job is to hold the space for that person as they as they go through this. And I know the human form with death because we are human. There's still suffering, there's still grief, pain, loss, and we have to carefully and compassionately hold and heal that with people.But the cosmic context is benevolent and extraordinary of a what awaits us. And if [00:43:00] we know that true context, it's gonna enable us to live a happier life and prepare for our own graceful passing, you know, not to be resistant and to support others as they approach their own transition. I know that was a lot.De'Vannon: Well Nicole: for me, so that's another one. We're not, we're never alone. We are not judged. Everyone and everything is connected.Okay? We are all energy. When we leave this body that breath. Think about it. When you see somebody at a funeral, they're laid out. The cosmetologist has worked on 'em. They don't, in my opinion, I don't know about you. They just don't look like they did. [00:44:00] They can never get their hair right or their makeup. It just doesn't look like them.Right? And that's because the light, that beautiful light of the energy has been lifted out of them. And that's that breath. The breath. If you see it on a cold day, you see your breath, it vaporizes, its energy transforms. And so we are all connected and we need to start paying attention to the energy and start thinking about, your energy affects me, mine affects, you know, we're all in this, this together.And it doesn't matter the differences because when we. Transition. We go into that, that, that form of soul, which is energy. It's not a human body.[00:45:00]De'Vannon: I, I want you to talk about like your road to rehabilitation. So you let's take it back like physically now, did you have to do like a lot of physical therapy? Were there multiple surgeries? Like when were you able to like, come out of the hospital and go home? Like, and then after that, did you have continued.Rehabilitation. How did it work physically to get you back to, to good? I Nicole: was in i c u now they took me to the closest hospital, which was a community hospital, and they were not prepared for trauma at that hospital, so they had to bring in, I was too critical to move. So they had to bring in ano another nurse.I had to have two nurses on me at all times. I was so critical. They had to bring in nine different specialists. Okay. So they had to bring in an infectious d disease specialist from Denver, because I had three infections set in from all the fiberglass, the feces, the, the, all that stuff that [00:46:00] mixes up in you.I got gang green and sepsis in my right leg. I almost, I was on the verge of amputation of that, and I didn't know it until after it passed. So I was hooked up at one point to 10 different IVs. Okay. And. They had to do what they call a subclavian to put it in there because you run out of veins after a while.So the doctor described to my mother, she is very, very, very three very sick. Okay. And every day it was, I don't know if she's gonna be alive or if she's gonna die today. That's how serious it was. I had to have a colostomy. I don't know if many people know what that is, but that's where they, they cut your where your bowels are and they pull out part of your bowel and they resection that so that you can go to the bathroom.And so here I am at 19 and I wake up from a surgery with my [00:47:00] intestine in a bag, part of it, and going, I've never had sex with anybody. I, I, no one's gonna wanna have sex with me, you know, when they see that back, cuz I couldn't stand it. And so one was an emergency operation from all the infections and they I coded on the way to the operating room.So they couldn't give me the amount of anesthesia that they needed to put, put me out because they would've lost me again. So I went in, like on a muscle relaxer and of Tata anesthesia, and I could feel them, I could hear them talking, I could feel them pulling my stomach. But I couldn't move, I couldn't say anything.And it was awful. It was awful to, to, to feel all this and to hear all this and not be able to do anything. You know, you're just immobile. I had to have my foot sewn [00:48:00] back on, so I had to have. Two skin grafts done. They took it off my thigh and one was the inside of my right thigh that they had to, to plug up with this huge hole.And then the other skin graft went directly onto the tendon on my foot to keep it together. It had a 5% chance of taking, and it did. And the doctor, it's written up in the Denver Medical Journal because it was just unbelievable that it would graft without having to granulate and just. Here, right on the tendon.Now, today, I still have issues. I have to wear those lovely compression socking, but I got my foot. I'm so grateful. I still have my foot. But you know, I have bowel issues from it, from the colostomy. They did reverse the colostomy, but it was, you know, I, I just, and then migraines and the va finally, finally, after 38 years, gave me a hundred percent, I call it [00:49:00] compensation.I don't call it disability, I call it compensation rating. And it took me that many times. I was on my third appeal and the VA rep from North Carolina just moved here. And he said, Nicole, it says, clear in your notes a patient thought initially dead on arrival. That means you had a head injury. Okay. So I don't know how they have missed that all these years.And we filed it with just that phrase. And next thing I know, the money showed up at the bank and I was granted, you know, permanent disability. And I'm just like, I, I think it's just a persistence challenge with the VA and the right wording, because that was my last attempt. They only give you three, but I am finally in that and can get compensated in that, that realm.So I don't have to work because I worked for a long time and I have P T S D and that was only diagnosed two years [00:50:00] ago. So I'd been trying to push myself through things that were so stressful, making the p t s worse. And that has been a huge issue with me is trying to regulate my nervous system and get that on board to be more in a parasympathetic sympathetic state.De'Vannon: You know, hearing all of what you've been through and everything like that, you know, perspective is everything, you know, and the thing that I was, and I, when I got H I v I was freaking out about what might happen. You know, there are for worse things that can happen and I'm not downplaying, you know, the seriousness of H I V and the, you know, hepatitis B, which I also have a history of, you know, but, you know, I feel like accidents like yours are, you know, are worse.You know, cancers, hell Covid can kill you in two weeks, you know? Yeah. You know. I'm, I'm thankful that I'm at a point where I have a good attitude about the diseases that I've had to struggle with, [00:51:00] because now I see how bad it really could have been. You know, those diseases never actually did anything to me.It was just my perception and fear of, of death that that really caused me to do self-harm to myself. And so I'm saying all that to say, people watch your perspective because you might actually hurt, you hurt yourself when you didn't have to be hurt. And for other veterans out there trying to fight and battle and box with the VA for your disability, like the woman said, you gotta keep going.It took a, it took time, but I got my, you know, my, my full rating too, that the, the VA is a breeding ground for the most wicked people who have. Never been veterans. And they come and they sit in there and they try to block us from getting our benefits. And it's even worse when you have someone who was a veteran working at the VA doing the same sort of treachery.So you do have to fight and sometimes you need to get like the D A V or the American Legion or an advocate to represent you. And [00:52:00] what I had to do, I live in Louisiana, but the New Orleans VA is so damn corrupt. People here go to other states. I had to go over to the Houston va, now I talk to the Los Angeles, you know, va I, I mean d a v I went to, I went to the Houston Vav and the Los, and I talked to the Los Angeles, d a v.Any d a center can represent you cuz they're all one big organization. It doesn't matter what state you live in. And so if the VA in your town is fucking up and they're full of assholes, go over to another state, you know, and, and the DAV can help you that all out. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I remember I had sent in, I had gone to see, Three new doctors that all documented migraines had injury, because back then in the eighties, they didn't have T b i traumatic brain injury that was not, you know, a known condition that people, you know, doctors were putting down.And when the it came back rejected, not enough evidence. And I was like, did they even read that? [00:53:00] And when I called up there, they admitted that they hadn't read it. There are so many claims coming through. And so that's when I got the advocate here in North Carolina to help me. And he said, we're gonna do this and let's see what happens because you deserve it.And I just wanted the validation that they now have a connection between P T S D and migraines that is clearly established. And if you have P T S D and you have migraines, then you should be getting compensated for both.But anyway, so yeah, I totally agree with you on that. But I had to go through rehab. I had to learn to walk again. I started in a swimming pool. I went home in December. It was a big to-do. They met me at the airport. I had a kidney infection. I didn't want anybody to touch me cause I was so in pain. But, you know, it was a slow slog.And physically, and I will tell [00:54:00] you, it's it's challenging When it happens, you get so much attention and then as you get better, people just fall off. And it's very lonely, you know, because you're still having to pursue the rehab and your friends are in college, they're having a good time, their lives go on, and you just feel like you've been, you know, gypped that and especially when you don't have a memory of what happened, you know, and, and then you're just expected to get on with life.At least that was the expectation In my family, you look physically like you can do things again. So forget about your mind or your spirit. And I think there's something, there's spiritual abuse that goes on, and there's spiritual amnesia and spiritual amnesia is what we all get when we get all these filters put on us as we start growing up.And. [00:55:00] I love it. In my book, I talk about, I did neuro emotional technique for seven years with people including children. And I was with a little girl who was six years old who was coming from a evangelical background who was scared she was going to hell cuz she did something bad. Now she's adopted so that's even worse.So I asked her how she sees God and she eagerly told me God is a blue spirit with colors and balloons in all different colors, no head and can talk. And clearly this little girl is having a direct experience with God, with no filters. And to me, of all the definitions I've heard, I resonate with that the best.You know, there's nowhere where there's energy of God is not. And it just talks to you in a way that you talk to it, it's your own. Relationship, you have to connect to it. It's [00:56:00] a direct experience you have to come into. And I love all the colors because that's what I saw on the other side was the colors.You know, it was just amazing. And she saw 'em as balloons, you know, and it just I was just like amazed. And of course, her parents were like, when I told her there was no hell she looked at her mom, she goes, mom, is that true? There's no, there's no hell with fire in the devil down there. She goes, we'll talk about that later.And I never heard back from her, but, you know, I like to take that. Quote, because children are so innocent and they haven't been subjected to all these indoctrinations and theories and you know, everybody is going to have a different concept of God. But know that from my experience and hundreds of thousands of others, that God is love and we will see our loved ones when we return home.[00:57:00]And you know, I think loving ourselves and others is the most important thing we can do because when you truly love yourself, and I mean love. Unconditional love. All your mistakes, your messes, everything. When you understand that love does not have love is not only a verb and a noun and an emotion, but it's an energy.And when you're around people who have that love energy, you can just feel it, you know? I don't know if that's the way you felt when I was reading your the, the end of your book and your epilogue with the pastor that passed away that was real influential. Sorry, I forgot her name. Evangel Nelson.Yes. If she was like that for you, where she just lit up. You could see the light in her eyes, you could feel it, you know, she was, [00:58:00] and that to me is love. And that they accept you for just for your beingness. And that's what we all need to unwrap ourselves from all these layers and get to that part of us, the being that we were born to be, which is our soul, which is just love and light and beauty and grace, and all these beautiful things.De'Vannon: Let there be light, let there be light. Let there be so much light. Yeah. Nicole: And that's, we we're light workers. That's what you have a light above your head this whole time. And I'm just sitting there. It's like you have a little, little halo kind of, and we are, you know, we are, this is my vocation now. You know, I've had occupations, but my vocation is to help people to try to understand it's time to awaken, to stay, to get out of this unconscious, keep repeating generational things.Start understanding your relationship [00:59:00] with what you call, or whatever the concept of God is, and how does that work in your life, you know, instead of waiting for something terrible to happen and then you start thinking and delving into this. De'Vannon: That is so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so beautiful. And I thank you so much for sharing all that you have.So tell us any, like, last words that you have and And and then I'll go ahead and give everybody your website and everyth. Well, Nicole: first of all, I have to say I love your beard being purple because that purple is royalty and purple is spirituality. Okay? So it's a high vibration which you emanate so that, you know, hopefully our goal is to move our brave vibration upwards, you know?But you know, I guess my main message, you know, it was what Spirit said is not be afraid of death, because if you are, [01:00:00] you're not gonna truly live your life and. This world is so beautiful and I wrote this book because I wanna help other people with their fears about death and to support you through the loss of loved ones.And I hope my book will inspire you to live fully and freely with your heart and your hands wide open. You know? And that's, that was my intention. And it's on Amazon, it's on Barnes and Nobles. You can get it through independent books. It's only what I told somebody the other day, we have these little fairs that come through and one came through Newburn and they were selling those funnel cakes and they were $10.And I said, oh my God, my book is cheaper than the funnel cake. I was like, At 9 99, I was just like, all that work, 13 years to get this book outta me. And a funnel cake, which you eat in what? Five minutes? It was more than that. So it's coming out on Audible [01:01:00] probably in the next month. I just finished my last recording of that the rerecord yesterday.And people, that is not as easy as you think to read your own book. I don't know if you've done that yet with your book. Yeah, I have, but De'Vannon: it is hard. Oh yeah. It, it's because it's like you have to relive everything all over again. Yes. Every time you go through and you don't just read through, you may have to reread each chapter, each section many times to get it right.So you need therapy after you back and read your own book. Nicole: Yeah. And then you hear yourself telling your story, and that's like a, that's a wow. So it was really it was a good thing to go through, but it was a healing, it was another layer in the healing process. And I just want people to know that too, is that healing takes time.Get help if you're stuck. There's lots of resources out there. And to truly, truly come home to who you really are as a soul. [01:02:00]De'Vannon: Alanis Mariette said it like this, let's not equate death with stopping. Nicole: Oh gosh, no, it's, it's just, you're going on. It's like John Lennon said, you just get outta one car and go into the next.De'Vannon: Right, so, so her name is Nicole Kerr. The book is called You Are Deathless. I'll put a link to Amazon and the show notes. The website is nicole kerr.com. That will go in the show notes. She's on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and all of that will go in the showy notes. Is everything. Always does. Thank you so very much for sharing and shining your light upon us and with us today, Nicole and everyone.Just remember that everything is gonna be all right. Nicole: Thank you so much, Devon, and I really appreciate it. You've been a joy to talk to.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really [01:03:00] means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs in jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at Davanon Sex Drugs and jesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is Davanon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

INTRODUCTION: Dr. Vernon T. Scott is from the state of Georgia. He is currently pursuing a Sex Coaching certification from Sex Coaching University and earning a second masters in Marriage and Family Therapy with a Systemic Sex Therapy specialization.Vernon has years of experience in life coaching and sexual health research and education. He is also an advocate for Trans rights and fighting against rape culture and its systemic impact within society. Vernon plans to use his platform to provide healthy conversations related to the nuances of sexual expression and amplify the voices of those often forgotten by society.He is the host of the Heauxliloquy Podcast and the owner of Slaytor's Playhouse, LLC. The podcast focuses on bringing people outside the compressed box of sexual expression. Vernon and his guests have conversations that range from kinks to personal sexual experiences to mental health. As for Slaytor's Playhouse, it is a publishing company that currently provides journals, artwork, and books.Social Media, Website, and MerchVernon's IG and Twitter: @UrFavHeauxstPodcast Twitter: @HeauxliloquyBook link: https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Guide-How-Hoe/dp/173663190Xhttps://www.heauxliloquy.comhttps://slaytorsplayhouse.com  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Vernon's New Sexually Inspired Journal·      A Warning Against Overuse Of Technology·      A Warning Against Sex & Hookup Apps·      Gwyneth Paltrow Shade (The Loving Sort)·      How Do You Trust?·      Masturbation Is Not Secondary To Sex·      Moving On From Narcissists Is MANDATORY·      Men's Sexual Performance Issues·      Can't Turn A Hoe Into A Husband·      Are You A Sex Addict? HTTPS://WWW.SAA.ORG CONNECT WITH VERNON: Website 1: https://www.heauxliloquy.comWebsite 2: https://slaytorsplayhouse.comHow To Be A Hoe: https://amzn.to/3n86RIRPoetry Book: https://amzn.to/3AavxrxYouTube: https://bit.ly/3nicLXDInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/urfavheauxst/Twitter (Vernon): https://twitter.com/UrFavHeauxstTwitter (Podcast): https://twitter.com/HeauxliloquyTikTok: https://bit.ly/3xOIjcPLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vernontscott/ CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:    https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse & Codependency Support Groups (Virtual) - https://www.meetup.com/pittsburgh-narcissism-survivor-meetup-group/·      COSA – 12 Step Recovery For Victims Of Compulsive Sexual Behavior - https://cosa-recovery.org·      A Recommended Reading To Help Heal From Narcissism - https://amzn.to/41sg6FO·      Sex Addicts Anonymous: HTTPS://WWW.SAA.ORG ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqgINTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Dr. Vernon t Scott, one of our resident guests on the sex drugs in Jesus podcast is back with us this week to talk about his brand newsexual exploration journal Y'all. This journalism, like any journal I've ever seen before, is filled with erotic drawings, which you can color in, and it's filled with prompts from Dr. Scott himself to help you think about your sexuality from a whole new way. Now in this episode, we're gonna take a deep dive [00:01:00] and really unpack some of these prompts and questions that Dr. Scott has placed within this sexual inspired journal. We're gonna issue a warning against sex and hookup apps.We're gonna talk about why masturbation is not secondary to sex. We're gonna hit on men's performance issuesand talk about why you can't turn a hoe into a husband. We also encourage you to ask yourself the question, are you a sex addict?You could be, and we're gonna talk about.A way that you can find out.Thank you so much for listening and enjoy the show.hello, are you delicious? Delicious, delicious little chickies out there. And welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Savannah that I have with Mia, believe for the third time, fourth, fifth, who's counting because the bitch is bad.Dr. Vernon t Scott of the Hell Podcast, the host of the Essential Guide on [00:02:00] How to be, I mean, the author of The Essential Guide on How to Be a Ho, also the author of Prose from a Soul Seeking Justice. That's the poetry book. Doc Scott is back here today to talk to us though about the journal that is called a New Sexual You.Which which is the latest work. And so we're journaling today. Girl, how are you doing? I am Vernon: doing very well. I, it's, it's, you know, life is lifeing but at the same time I'm embracing it because you only get one life to live, so you might as well make it happy regardless of what kind of downturns you may come across.Like just find the positive things and that's one of the things I'm working on, acknowledging that, you know, things are not where I want it to be, but figuring out how I can make them a lot better. So I'm in my own little process and I'm just enjoying the ride at this [00:03:00] point De'Vannon: on to the Fox. Yet it's not think there was a soap opera for a called One Life to Live.We only have one life to live to watch my grandmother and things. The Lord was speaking to us. Then you only come, come this way once. Vernon: You know, I, I kind of wanna be a soap opera actor just for like, it's like if you get in there, you're stuck in there for some time until they have to kill you off. And I'm just like, I just wanted to do the one episode.Like, I thought it was gonna be a cameo bitch.That would be so nice. De'Vannon: That's some stable ass shit. I wouldn't mind being on the young in the, they like it's stable income. But I wouldn't mind being on the Young and the Restless and doing a scene with Nick, that boy who played Nick Joshua, that fine ass boy. I think it's time for his character to become a little questioning.Vernon: I'm so done. Go away. De'Vannon: It's time for me to show up and help guide this young [00:04:00] man onto his questioning journey. Vernon: Go away. De'Vannon: Speaking of, speaking of guiding people on their journey, so y'all the way. Vernon has this journal laid out. He has a lot of prompts now. I've seen journals before that have a lot of blank pages in him and not that much written.His prompts as he calls 'em. I think there's like 10 prompts in total. Or it's one prompt, but there's like four or five different questions per prompt, and they're, and they're written, so it's probably like 30 questions or something, you know, throughout the whole thing. And they're written to help to guide you along.So you, so you kind of feel like Vernon's right there with you helping to guide and you can always, you know, reach out to him anyway with questions. You know, he's a sexual experience coach. He's coming from his own history of sexual abuse and trauma, which he's overcome to help the world do the same. And so what would you like to tell us about this [00:05:00] book before I start interrogating you with my 20 questions?Oh my Vernon: God. Not 20. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I would say the, the great thing about it is that it allows you to question yourself, to dive a lot deeper. And one of the reasons why there are multiple questions in each prompt is because you, a lot of people, when you get that. That basic question, they don't know what's next.And sometimes having a little bit more thought provoking things that goes deeper and deeper into those questions that you're asking yourself, helps you develop your thought processes. It helps you critically think, it helps you find the answer a little bit. I can't say sooner because everybody's process is a little bit different, but it helps you go a little bit deeper into yourself.More than that basic, oh, how are you feeling? I'm feeling good. Okay. And what's after that? So the, the it's. [00:06:00] Phrased in a way that you get that what's after that at the forefront. In addition to that, it allows people who are exploring themselves to find their creative side too, because what is it like when it comes to sex in general?I personally believe that a lot of people's blockages, because they lack creativity, they lack the option of freedom. And that's one of the things that this journal allows people to do. You get to create these, yeah, they're already printed for you. Yeah, they already have their own structures, but you get to create your own na narrative with these images.You get to create your own characters with them. Like one of the things that is even mentioning in instructions, you get to gender bend however you feel is best for you. Like there is one image in there where it is a feminine body, but it, the journal in itself plays on the mask film.Throughout. But the feminine [00:07:00] body in this one comes within the masculine section of it. So it's like, oh, okay, so how can I dive deeper into that? So I would say it is just a way for you to explore yourself, be creative, and dive deeper into your own introspection and figure out how you can embrace your own sexuality a lot more.De'Vannon: You had me dive deeper. That's, that's, that, that's what I that's what I kept hearing. Maybe it's because I had this. This, this, this, this, this man over here, earlier this morning. Who, who, who dove really deep. Ooh, Vernon: we love a deep dive. Now hold up now. Let find one of those. It's been a dry, dry season, Lord.De'Vannon: But let me look, let me do like they do in church and extend my hand so that,but [00:08:00] like when the like when the cloud came out of the river, And they said, we, we hear the sound of an abundance of rain. And three year, it had been that three year dry spell. I think that was the process. Elijah or Samuel. It was one of the two. And he got in his chair and ran. And baby it hadn't rained in three years, but it rained Vernon: Chile Cha.I I'll accept a lot of rain at this moment. You can make it rain some cash. Why you at let, let not let me not let me start taking off my shirt. I'm joking. I'm joking. Not on the internet. On the internet. My, I'm sorry. De'Vannon: His website, the websites are ally.com and slaters playhouse.com. He's on Twitter.Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, all that will go in the show now. But yeah, honey, I was, do I, I let him come over here and do a deep dive. He he came so fast the first time, you [00:09:00] know, they called me the, you know, the diamond Princess too, you know? Ooh, ooh.And then I think he was so, He was so into it. And then also so feeling some type of way you know, maybe embarrassed that he decided to fuck me again, you know? And so, and we're gonna be talking about sexual performance because that was one of your prompts. You know, I have some questions about the way tops view sexual performance, cuz I don't view it that way, but but yeah, I understand the dry spell.You know, everybody knows, you know, I had to break up with my, my covertly narcissistic ex January. You know, so we're moving forward. But I had to go. I mean, aint nothing gonna take the place of being with like one person who you can get dick from five nights a week if you want to. You know, this shit was wonderful.You know, I, I thought the sex, you know, in our relationship unfortunately was like one of the best things. There's so much [00:10:00] more to life than that. But that's really one of the best things he could give me cuz he was so emotionally unavailable, but mm-hmm. You know, you know, we we're having to move on. And that's, and that's all that there is to it.I'm saying all this is say Mayo Dry, spell be broken in Jesus' name. Vernon: Amen. And we receive it. Oh my damn. I didn't, we De'Vannon: receive, I mean if it gets that bad, I'm gonna hop on the flight and come over there and break it myself. Okay. We love it.Vernon: Oh God yes. De'Vannon: And so, okay, so let's start at the cover, the book cover. I have a thing about book covers and yours is especially colorful, y'all. It's purple. I think he might be able to hold it up for us per chance. Yep. Right. And so there you go. Bling bling purple. It matches my lilac colored [00:11:00]Easter, well Easter inspired spring inspired beard right now.I'm seeing it looks like Star. Star. And this book is out on Amazon and everything yet, or is it yet to be Vernon: released? It is out, I believe it is on Amazon. What I would recommend doing, because it is a lot cheaper just getting from the source, just go to my website to purchase it at Slater's Playhouse.It's so much easier for everybody. Other outside printing sources charged like 30 plus I think, and that's for the cheapest version of it. And the rest is like 45 and 50. And you don't have to pay that, pay the 25 at the website or the 20 at the website. So, and it's. For some people who may not have those funds, because I love accessibility.There's also a digital version too, so that you can print it out at home and that's only $5 De'Vannon: and I think it's like 160 something pages. 160, 100 mm-hmm. Page. [00:12:00] And so it's not a little thin anorexic journal. You know, this one here has but I hate that man when I buy a journal or something like that, that is prompted by someone and not just a marble journal, like what we used in grade school.Mm-hmm. I expect some prompting in there, like what you gave, not these little one-liners every, every few pages. No, I felt like this journal has a lot of soul and depth into it. So people who have never journaled before are not, you know, this is great, you know, for them, but. I see like angel wings in the back.What, what, explain this cover to me and why you went with it. Vernon: So I've, I've been feeling a lot of like universal energy, let's put it that way. And a part of that is also connecting to the things that make me feel free. And part of that is feathers and flying and being out. [00:13:00] Like whenever I think of freedom, I think of birds because they can go wherever they want at any time and all they have to do just spread their wings and go.So that's why on many of my covers you may see some types of feathers, be it the wings that's Like shrouded in the back, in the center of the cover or even at the bottom. Something that, that's like a little small cloud area or galaxy. But no, it's actually just a collection of wings and it's just, it's just something that always gave me a sense of freedom.And because this is a journal that focuses on sexuality and finding the new you, finding the new sexual you and finding that sexual freedom, I thought, why not? Let's put some wings on there so that you understand that you too can fly and soar in all of that. De'Vannon: Lord, give me two wings so I can fly away from all of this bullshit.Amen. I'll get 'em when I die and so will [00:14:00] you. Yes. So. So you've already talked about like the purpose of the journal and everything like that. I think I've stated why your journal is different than others, but is there anything you would like to say about why your journal ain't like the other journals?Vernon: I would say I have yet to see a journal that gives you the freedom to draw color and all this other stuff in write to really make something your own. Yes. When it comes to like, just like the basic notebook that you get to write in, you get to draw on the margins or you get to figure that out as you go along.But this automatically gives you that permission upfront lets, you know, Make this yours, decorate it however you want to decorate it. Attach your creativity to your own journey of yourself. Make this something that is extremely personal to you on multiple levels. And I don't see that in two many other journals.And on top of that, similar to what [00:15:00] you said earlier many of those journals only have like a one sentence question. They don't really probe you to go deeper. And I, I made that mistake with my first journal that I made within the series, and I just was like, okay, let's put some thought-provoking questions at the front and go with it.Yes, they're helpful questions, but one of the things I realized is that what is the, like I said earlier, what is that next step? It's great to just have that question, but what's going to be the thing to help guide people through through their processes? Guide them through their their like.Figuring out what their thoughts are, figuring out who they are as a person. Like one of the questions if I can ask it. And it's also one of my favorite ones is from prompt two. As soon as I pull that up is related to consent. So most people are, who are unfamiliar with [00:16:00] the what consent is.They may have just that basic yes or no, but this actually focuses on yourself rather than like anybody else's definition. So the question asked what does consent mean to me? How does it look and sound? How does consent feel? And when I am most comfortable with providing wait, when am I most comfortable with providing consent?So it's like, you really have to think about these things. It's not just yes or no questions. It's figuring out how. These things relate to sexuality, really do relate to yourself as well. De'Vannon: I feel like I need to say that journaling is not like a, a male female thing. This isn't something like girls do.It's not, you're not less of a dude if you want to take your pencil out pen or whatever and write, it's not a like that because [00:17:00] journaling taps into the soul, to the mind is private anyway, cuz nobody needs to know you have the thing, you know? And so, I don't know. I just felt like I wanted to speak to like any sort of like mischaracterizations or stereotypes that might, or stigmas that might be attached to this.Vernon: Hmm. No, that's, that's it's good that you said that cuz many people do think that it's just something that women do because like even when you think about the media that we watch, you have that dear diary moment, our girls in their diaries and stuff like that. But yeah, you'll have men who journal, but this is usually somebody that's like a prominent figure.So like the journals of George Washington or a judge or, you know, whatever it is, whenev what, whatever like c s I related show that you're watching in it's some high powered individual was murdered. You find their collection of journals. But it is not often sa stated [00:18:00] that, oh, the everyday man has that permission to write as well.So I think it is good to mention that anyone can journal and journaling is good regardless of who you are. De'Vannon: And it's a developing skill. So you sat down to write your first page in your first journal. Don't think you gonna be like, Angela Lansbury and Murder she wrote, you know, or Oprah Winfrey or some damn body like that.You know, you have to crawl before you walk and just about anything you do in life. So it's not about writing it perfectly, like you say in here. It is about just speaking your truth and being truthful. Now tell me why is, why is truth important in journaling? Vernon: I would say in order for you to truly engage, let me using the word in this, but in order for you to truly engage with yourself, you do have to tell the truth.It's easy for us to be fixated in the lies that we tell ourselves or the lies that we tell other people. And how do [00:19:00] you truly expect for yourself to grow if you cannot be honest with yourself about the things that are really bothering you? So that's why it is. Pivotal for people to maintain truthfulness in their conversation.Sometimes it's too early to approach that truth, and oftentimes we do recognize that we have glossed over something. But when you recognize that, give yourself that opportunity just to go back and address that a little bit later on, or even address it in a different way and see what comes De'Vannon: outbecause it's a living thing. So what, what you write, you can come back and revisit and you can track your growth. I wanna say, I know we live in a technological age, doc Scott, I need you bitches to put the damn phone down. Yes. And [00:20:00] and pick up a pencil. A number two. Okay. Or some in fucking number two.Take your hands. And write in the damn journal. I know you have notes in your cell phone, but it's a different way that the brain is wired to your handwriting across paper versus clicking on that technological device. Mm-hmm. When I was doing my hyp hyp hypnotherapist hypnotist certification, we would have to hand write in pencil, you know, and then we could go back and interpret that handwriting, you know, by the way the letters lay and things like that.And learn everything about a person, you know, before they even much open their mouth. You know, there is something to physically writing as old school and archaic as it may be, but when you really, really need deep help and deep work done, we had to kick [00:21:00] this technology to the side and get back to our roots.Hmm. Vernon: You know, I think a lot of that is because when you do hand write, everything becomes so much more personal. Cuz when you do the digital thing, you, it's the screen. It's always the screen. Whatever you type, whatever you put out there is so far distant. You're not really, yeah. You can get carpal tunnel for like, typing all the time.Okay. Whatever. That's, you know. That, but it, it doesn't really do anything within your body. Whenever you are typing these things, you're just doing a task on a regular basis. But whenever you actually sit down and write something, when you write your signature, whenever you put your body to motion to articulate the things that you're trying to say, and in the language that your body actually understands, that tends to stick a lot more than when you just type, because these letters on the keyboard, [00:22:00] They don't speak our language, they just speak what the keyboard says.They, they speak in the idea that you're putting out there in the digital space, but they're not speaking the same language that your body has learned throughout the ages because you're not typing at first. You're learning how to write your name. You're learning how to write a sentence by putting it on paper.Your body remembers that. And outside of that, typing on a skill on the keyboard just becomes a skill and not a part of your identity. Not a part of De'Vannon: yourself. Fuck. Yeah. Like your handwriting is unique to like your d n a and you use this something that's basic as handwriting. And I like a pencil because that lead is more natural than ink.In spiritual circles. If in spiritual circles, if you do certain types of spiritual work, You must use a pencil to do it. Mm-hmm. And you don't have to go go as far as to use parchment paper or like brown paper that is untainted and [00:23:00] untouched by man. In order to access what you're trying to access, you gotta go back to the roots bitch.Mm-hmm. But your hand, but you can use, you know, like writing with a number two pencil. So you recenter yourself to refocus to remember who you are and get in touch with that. Like, like Doc Scott said, you start off right and then by the time you all know in fucking fifth grade you got a god damn tablet you're running around with and you clicking away at everything, you know, turn into that crazy bitch from Megan who's obsessed with that fucking doll and didn't wanna give a damn thing up.The ho was strung out on the damn electronic, you know, because she know the fuck she was apart from the technology. Mm-hmm. So, And we gonna be talking about apps later cuz in the, in the email you sent, you wanted to talk about dating apps and all of that. And I got some shit to say cuz that's a huge part of what, of what cost me my relationship.Mm-hmm. But I don't know. I dunno if you wanna talk more about what journaling has personally done [00:24:00] for you. Had an interesting thing happen yesterday, I went with a new friend of mine this beautiful, beautiful, beautiful man, his name is Landon. He has a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful wife and and everything.And they're just an amazing couple. And I love the way he adores her, both when he's with her and when he is not. And but he and I went to go see Dungeons and Dragons and I'm gonna tell you all hearted moves in mysterious ways. I was sitting there watching this movie. I'm not big in the d and d, but Landon is gonna teach me how to play it.The ex played it, but he never invited me to the games, even though that would've been nice cuz I was the one who took him up there and pushed him to start playing him. But that's a whole other thing, you know? But the Lord has given me better. I have a new person who does invite me to it and everything like that.And so but the characters in there reminded me of issues from [00:25:00] my previous relationship. And when I got home and I hadn't journaled in a good while, I, I broke out my, my famous red journal and and I wrote, and it took me a few hours and I just talked about, you know, how God was speaking to me about what happened in my relationship.And I felt a great sense of validation and everything. And I'm gonna release, I'm gonna release a show and I'm gonna read this journal, you know, to people. And It's like from Harry Potter when they have that pen, Seve, when they do that spell where you can take the thought outta your head mm-hmm. And drop that bitch into that pen, Seve and they'll fucking worry about it no more.But go pick it up when you want to. Mm-hmm. That is for me. Too much shit going on in here. Put it down on paper there. My brain feels relieved and the load has been lightened. Do you have like a, a very specific example of a time where journaling broke said, broke you free? Vernon: How [00:26:00] journaling allowed, helped me come back from psychosis.And like this was during the height of the pandemic in might as well say 2021 ish. And I just started with a new therapist and working with him and he suggested that I use journaling as a way to ground myself a little bit more into reality and everything that's going on and process a lot of the things that's been bothering me or just even some past experiences.And it helped me. Literally, it did help me ground ground myself back into reality. It helped me figure out some of the things that were still bothering me that I thought I resolved, but I did not necessarily get over. It also helped me get in touch with my creative side again and get more in touch with my writing side too.I, there's been [00:27:00] moments I will be writing in my journal and I will say something that I feel is profound and I will underline it or put a star next to it and I'll put a message to myself like, you need to use this line in like a story somehow and keep going back into exploring myself and figuring out what's bothering me doing the shadow work and all of that.Within my journal of course, but like, it has helped me tremendously. And I will say I did use one of those lines in one of I can't say it was a short story cuz I never really went back to it, but a story that I was beginning to write and it, it felt so freeing to address that in that way too.It helped me dive back into story writing and developing a world and all of that. So yeah, [00:28:00]journaling. It's that, it's that girl, De'Vannon: he's that bitch. Look and there are many, many of you suffering from mental health issues and emotional problems. And if you haven't tried journaling, what the fuck do you have to lose?You know, you know, when you really, really get desperate and need help and you really ready for it, you'll try anything. But you know, this is a very, very beautiful journal. So the pictures in here are in black and white. Like Doc Scott was saying, you can color them. It starts off, or at least at the, towards the beginning of it, it's like a beautiful lotus flower that I'm looking at with like a heart in it and everything.And these pictures I'm gonna tell y'all, get progressively Kenia Kia matriculate through. I see a few, I, I think asses in here. Definitely some torsos and such, some ti TAs and whatnot. A six pack or something along that. Somebody's straddling somebody, oh, I ain't gonna say it is [00:29:00] porn. It's, it's very like, expressive and it's very body positive.Not everybody in here has a six pack. I've seen some, some, some hips. Hips and curves and everything like that. And I think that that is fucking wonderful. Yeah. And so how interactive it is. Vernon: Yes. And you know, one of the things that I do it's my self-critique is that I could not find any more like thicker masculine body types sock put in there.But that's one of the things I'm working on fixing for like the, the third iteration of the sexual exploration journal. So I can, like, the theme of it is body. So I have to make sure I have like a lot more body representation throughout that entire journal for the people who like to color and, you know, do that work.So be on the lookout people. De'Vannon: I'm just, nobody's judging you. And if they do, then fuck 'em. Oh look, and [00:30:00]I'm impressed that you put the artwork and everything together yourself. That's quite a skill. And you know what? We, we give you a pass on not having everybody type. Just like, just like we forgave Gwyneth Paltrow for doing Love, sex and Goop on Netflix and having just about everybody represented except for two dudes being in a relationship, even though she had women, men, straight couple didn't see any trends either.Gwyneth, you know, Vernon: get your De'Vannon: Pete, get your Iron Man on all you want. But we holding out for the next season where we sh where we're sure you'll get to those which you weren't able to get to in the first season. The shade, Vernon: the, and I love it becauseI was like, I, I will say I did love to see the bigger bodies up in that bitch. I did love to see it, but I was also like, You could do De'Vannon: a little bit more. [00:31:00] Where, where, where is the Batman To My Robin.So for those of you haven't seen Love, sex and Goop, I guess it's still on Netflix. Super cool. It's all about couples exploring their sexuality and being guided through it because Mo a lot of couples have so, so much piss poor communication and everything. You would think that it would be just easy to reach over to your partner because people have so many fucking unresolved issues.And so, so we, we always use a little help. One of your prompts asked the question, what prevents me from trusting others?Yes. And I guess just one of the questions within that prompt, there's like four or five questions about trust. It's just one, we can't tell it all. We gotta tell on it. And this stood out to me because, I'm the type [00:32:00] until now who would just trust people too far, too much, too fast. You know, y'all love hard.I believe in people and everything like that, and I have no ill intentions towards people. I forget that, that everybody thinks that way. Mm-hmm. When it comes down to sex, sexual relations, relationships, trust is a multi-level thing. For instance, people will guard their hearts and don't trust people with their true emotions or to show their real self, but they'll pull their dick out without thinking about it.Or go run behind closed doors with somebody without telling anyone where they're at. So, so you're willing to trust somebody with your anatomical safety, believing they won't give you a disease? Well, we can see how the h i v pandemic and hepatitis is gone with that. Mm-hmm. And, and you know, you know, we have not been very smart in that.Not judging. I, I have, you know, a history of H I V and hepatitis B myself, so I'm the first one to say I wasn't smart with that. I trust it too much. [00:33:00] And you know, we, so we trust that people aren't gonna cut us up into itty bitty pieces when we get behind closed doors. Although the stories still come in of people going missing on hookups to this day.This not disappear when Dahmer died or whatever the hell. People are still getting cut up on hookups, y'all. So so talk to me about trust, what it means to you and what would you like to say to people about it? My concern is that we put our physical safety at risk. It really, our mental health at risk by the things we're willing to do.Even though we guard certain portions, it's like it's unbalanced trust and it doesn't balance out. See for Vernon: me I'm, I'm similar to you, I like to give people trust until they prove themselves otherwise of being trust trustworthy. But when it comes to, when I provide trust to other people, I also think about my boundaries and like.Moving [00:34:00] within a space of trust without boundaries is asking for destruction. Whenever you do have those boundaries, do know what you're comfortable with, with what you want to allow, that allows you to make a, a lot more different decisions. Most definitely when it comes to how far you go with a another individual.And for me, I like to have clear understandings of, of things. So in order for me to. Come into a space where I am open to providing my body with somebody I need clarity on what are your intentions here? What are you most comfortable with? What what are you interested in doing? Are you willing to send a picture of yourself if if not, what are you willing or comfortable enough sharing?Let's talk about things before we even get to that space of having sex. And another thing is I do feel like cause of some of the messages that we are receiving throughout, you know, [00:35:00] our upbringing is that we have always been given the permission to be sexual and trust people with our bodies in a way.But we have not been given that permission to trust people with like knowing us intimately on another level outside of sex. Meaning having those honest conversations about what, you know, comfort levels or. Oh do you want to cuddle after we are done hooking up or just having those healthier conversations about how you want to engage with other people?We do not receive that permission at all. We have to learn to do that after we've been traumatized or come across so many fuck boys or fuck girls or fuck people that we are just like, oh, maybe I should operate a little bit differently. Or like, we are not even given permission to engage in [00:36:00] love outside of what society says love looks like.But we can freely give our bodies, because most definitely with those who are within the queer, queer community, because we are oversexualized for whatever you find out somebody's queer, oh, you must be having a lot of sex. What the hell made you think bad? Because as the societal thought process is that if you're queer, you're engaging in a lot of sex.And that's not always the truth. But we many of us do enact that narrative because that's what we were told through our lives. So it's easier for us to just be like, oh, I can give you my body because that's expected of me, already not expected of me to actually find a healthy and loving relationship with the person before we even engage in sex.But that's the it's the flip side for a lot of women though. They are told that they have to find the love of their life before they engage in sex. They are to wait [00:37:00] on it until they find the right person that they're most comfortable with losing their virginities to and all this other stuff.However, Men, queer people, just go out there and fuck and enjoy your fucking and explore as much as you want until you may find somebody that you fell in love with or fall in love with and all the other mess. De'Vannon: I feel like on some level at my request for your next journal rendition, is that you include a prompt that has to do with sexual limitations in terms of taking it too far.You know, at what point is your sexual sexuality getting out of hand? Because I've been attending, like, sex addicts, sex addicts, anonymous groups to be sure that since now that I'm single again, I don't turn back into a grinder hole or anything like that. Acting out or trying to fill a void or anything like that.Or [00:38:00] and then I'm, that I'm checking myself, you know, in And keep, and, and, and keeping my thoughts, you know, from spiraling all over the place. Well, I'm also attending the Sex Addicts Anonymous group because I realize, you know, I think that like from a child, probably I was, and nobody ever explained sex to me.And so I learned it from television, like you're saying. And then when I got I v I shut down and stopped having sex pretty much all together. And I learned from reading the Sex Addicts Anonymous literature that that is still a form of like sex, having a sex problem. So either if you take it too far and you just fuck your brains out all through town, or if you do like me and cave in and just, just feel like you just begin to demonize it because you judge yourself.In my case, I judge myself for letting myself get h I v. Either extreme is bad. Now it's okay. You know, I think if somebody needs to pause for some time to get a perspective. Mm-hmm. But [00:39:00]pausing is one thing. Knowing you're gonna reengage as opposed to hating yourself. Like I did both of those extremes.Doing it too much or too little required guidance. And so, and so, that's why I'm going through that. And so I, I wonder, so I, I would like a, a, a prompt about restraint over sexualization and dangers. How can my sex life put me in danger in ways that I'm not thinking about. Mm-hmm. You know renting a hotel room or motel room and turning the lights off and being blindfolded and letting anyone come in there and, fuck, you might be kinky.Some people are gonna call that sex positive. Hey, do what you want, but let's be real about the risks involved in that. Mm-hmm. See? And so, and these are the kind of things that I talk with my s a a sponsor about, you know, just being super mindful. Yes. Society tells people sex is okay, love is not. The patriarchy has told women [00:40:00] how to be, how to act, how to feel, what to do with they posties and everything like that.You know, fuck the damn patriarchy. Exactly. Also, also, not just sexual orientation and lifestyles, but ages. One of the, one of the struggles that I had, and y'all, y'all gonna probably hear me reference that X eczema for some time to come. I believe that I went through what I went through to to help you cuz you know I'm gonna talk about it.I'm not gonna be quiet because somebody has gotta be warned. Also, also, as my hypnotherapist pointed out, since my dad's a narcissist, that older dude who basically molested me when I was 15 was a narcissist. You know, she believed that he came into my life in order to not just heal me of what I went through with him, but the other men too.And so I'm happy about this all. And so we don't tell it. But one of his things was he thought that since he was in his twenties, this meant being a slut and being a hoe. [00:41:00] And I said, there are 20 year olds who do that, but there are people in their twenties who do not do that. So if you're going to be about that life, just say it's because you are about that life, not because your twenties mandates that you be out in the streets like that.So don't have no excuses to hide behind if you know that's what you trying to do. But my whole thing is he let society tell him to, I don't know, to watching tv or he would never put his damn phone down, was always on Instagram. You know, tell him what he's supposed to do in his twenties. And I would say, what do you want?Mm-hmm. When, where did you come up with these things in your mind? From no answers. So we need to be sure that we're not letting television, social media, the church family, nobody tell us how we're supposed to be. Journaling is a good way to delineate that and to, and to get out your actual thoughts so you can separate that shit from the voices in your head [00:42:00] that are not your own.Mm-hmm. Like, like Impro team told Ray in that damn Star Wars movie, he's like, I'm every voice you have ever heard. Okay. He was like, I've been in your head bitch this whole time and you didn't even know. We gotta kick a basket like that out. They even got too comfortable in our minds. Mm-hmm. It ain't even in rent.Mm-hmm. Vernon: Exactly. And I, I love that you mentioned that because people really do think that because of a certain age, this is how they supposed to be, regardless of how old the person is or how young they are, like. Whenever people decide to subscribe to a certain narrative, they have to recognize that that's the choice that they're choosing to make.Like I remember being in my twenties and people saying, oh, this is the age that you're supposed to be finding love, getting in a relationship and doing all these other things. And I would tell people, many of them who often got mad at me that I'm not ready for a relationship. I know I'm not rel ready and I'm not going to [00:43:00] put myself in a sit situation where I am going to what end this relationship because everything is a mess because neither one of us is ready.Or if you are, I'm not. So what are we going to be doing here other than just saying, hey to each other and cuddling up together? And what else? Like, I don't have the foundation that I required in order for me to feel comfortable in a relationship, therefore I will not be in one. So people really do think most definitely like some older people too, that.Yeah, I'm in my fifties. I'm not supposed to be sexual because my sex drive is gone. No, it is not gone. You can have as much sex as you want, be free and be happy with if you're young, you do not have to be going through bodies on a regular basis. You can be in a relationship. You can be alone with yourself.You can have mono sexuality, which is just masturbating all the time. Whatever you want for yourself, you can have that option to [00:44:00] be that. But if you just choose to go with the narrative because it makes you feel comfortable and you feel like you supposed to do that, then that's just not true. You're choosing to do that and you can make your own narrative or you can make your own story about your own life if you choose to do so.De'Vannon: Amen. You better preach. Hallelujah. And and also I like, like to let people know that when you live that way and you don't know why you think what you think or why you think what you. Why you feel what you feel or why you believe, what you believe you are a slave to, to other people, and you don't know that you are a slave to the mindset, to the patriarchy, and they are controlling you because you have no idea what motivates you in life or why you get up and go and do the things you do.I would ask acc, acc ask, ask my ex shit. I'd be like, why'd you do that? He'd be like, I don't know why I did that. Why'd you say that? I don't know why I said that. I'm like, okay. He would be like, I don't look forward to getting older. I won't be able to have fun. Once I turned [00:45:00] 30. I said, okay, why do you believe that?You know, I don't know. I'm like okay. Okay. That's you. That's not everybody. But, but I, I've tried to level with him. I was like, okay, where did you get that from? Let's talk this out. He got all mad. Didn't want to get all deep. I was at the, I was at the nightclub, this club called Splash the other night with my delicious new friends.Just a good, you know, safe group of people for me to hang out with. And twirling and splash is like a, hmm, you know, 18 to maybe like 24 year old general dance club right outside of Louisiana State University. But nobody in there is judging you as long as you, you can be old as whatever, as long as you go in there.I had whatever color beard on, I was rocking and you know, they was like, cool man. Fucking, you know? Right. And there was this dude, old white haired, he had on like a fetish kink, kind of like Scottish Celtic dress leather. Updo, look, go. I was here for it, but when I left I heard these mean ass queens [00:46:00] in the parking lot throwing shade, I think at him talking about like, you know, talking about this old man in the club.And I said, you know what? Them little young fuckers don't understand that the bad karma that they're sewing for themself and Teddy like that because they not gonna be young forever, assuming, assuming that they're even blessed enough to get to these, that guy must have been 60, you know, 70 years old, walking around there with a spring in his step.Young and big mouth and arrogant like that is only gonna make you old and crippled. You know, because you're not sewing good seed for yourself. I respected the fact that he was in there. With gray hair twirling around with 18 year olds with full fucking confidence bitch. No one who can stop him, who can check him.He paid his cover, he pays, okay, it's a free fucking country. I respected the fuck outta him and I complimented him. I did not like seeing the damn queens in the club being petty. Oh, that stems from insecurity any fucking way. Vernon: Nothing but [00:47:00] insecurity and that's their problem. And I, that's the one thing I try to help a lot of people understand, is that when you go out your way to try to make somebody else feel bad or just comment on their existence just for being there, is cause you're insecure that it is something within you wish that you were that person and you need to explore exactly why.Because what did he do to you all to make you want to be so negative other than existing in your space and enjoying his life? Are you jealous that. This is a grown ass person enjoying their life and their, the youth of their age. Make it, make it to that point, like the man is doing whatever the fuck he wants to do.Are you, do you not feel comfortable enough that you can do wherever the fuck you want? That's your problem.De'Vannon: Yeah, people [00:48:00] shouldn't be so shook just cause somebody walked through the fucking door. You know? They should have been like dancing and twerking and popping their own pussy severely and not, not people watching like that. I don't like the people watch. I like to be in the middle of the crowd. I cannot spend my life watching other motherfucking people.That's why I don't like reality tv defies, reels and things like that cuz people just sit there and watch other damn people all day and then they don't have an attention span worth the damn, you know, can't explain shit. But they can tell you what everybody fucking did on social media. It's so fucking stupid.Vernon: Now I will say I'm a people watcher. I'm, I'm not going to lie, but I also like to live my own life. But De'Vannon: there's balance for everything. I'm not judging you If you wanna watch, but fuck you gotta get up engaged at some point. I'm not sitting around and watching none of y'all ho y'all can watch. I agree that's Vernon: there is something I did want to talk about.It is, it is related to your ex as well as people like him. I consider them [00:49:00] as NPCs. For those who are not gamers, that's just a non playable character. The reason why cause. My, my little cousin, he was an NPC at one point, and I had to make sure he pressed stars so he can get his, you know, a person playing.So these are people when you do ask them whether it's on their mind, it's just something blank. If they do act, they, well, let's not say act. They react. And when they react, there's no thought process and that, and sometimes they're just, In the motions of doing things with no thought behind it. So like, whenever you find a person like that, do your, if they're young and it's if, if it's somebody that you're you love a lot, help them learn how to critical critically think.Once you get to that point and they start to do that, there's a completely different shift in their energy and how they interact and how they respond and what they do. They start to think a lot more. It becomes [00:50:00] so much easier for you. Like my little cousin used to be like a problem child. Now he's like the best child in the house because they no way I'm going to have my own family member be a NPC out here.We don't uhuh. No, no. So make, make, contact your friends, contact your family members. Don't let them be an npc. That's all I wanted to say on that. De'Vannon: Well, that goes my that's a good Nod to my Dungeons and Dragons reference earlier. Right. Which it was. Which it was a cute ass movie. But but, you know, the Lord speaks us in all kind of ways, through movies, through shows, television, everything's just all about whether or not your, your ears are open to listen.Mm-hmm. I, I'm gonna say, you can offer help to these NPCs because God knows, you know, I, I, you know, I loved my boyfriend and I tried to help him. You know, one, one of his mindless times like that was when we had first broke up. And I [00:51:00] wish I hadn't gotten back together with him, but I didn't know that narcissistic personality disorder was a fucking thing.I just thought it was like immaturity or some shit. But he was out there for three weeks. He would complain about not having enough friends. But there's a reason people don't like being around him, you know, cause of that heavy ass energy that he has. He refused to let it go. So we're sing. So we're both single for three weeks, although I never limited it from having him, from having friends.What he decided to do was go rack up six different fuck buddies and one supposedly platonic friend all met through hookup apps. I say, okay, you complain about not having friends, but you chose to go rack up fuck buddies again. Okay? Narcissistic people do this. They create the shit they hate and then they blame other people or just bitch about it, even though they literally created it and did it.And so but this was when Covid was popping off. We had tests but [00:52:00] no vaccines. None of him and nor his hoes got tested. And then he came he let me come around him with no mask on and it was not a pretty night. Once I discovered that he had been out fucking cuz he left. A wine bottle, a pork wine bottle in his kitchen.Cause we were trying to be friends or sorted out or you know, I think I was thinking I wanted to get back with him or whatever and I'm like, you're not classy enough to buy something like this cuz I taught you everything you know about taste and design. So you've been with some dude. Otherwise this bottle wouldn't be sitting here cuz you're a box wine bitch.And so nothing against box wine. I have it in here too, but I also have the bottles and the crystal glasses. You know, that was one of those mindless like how in the hell? And the only thing that could come out of his mouth was, I'm single, right? I can go do what I want. True, absolutely. But that doesn't mean that you need to pass up CVS and don't get your nose swabbed.But you can go lay in bed all night with people and then you come around other folks who didn't even benefit from the damn sex and you don't bother [00:53:00] to tell them. Mm-hmm. That was his mindless moment. We hash that out and talked about it. This is why I had to break up with him. Years later, he's back at it again.This time he's out having sex with people knowing he's covid positive and didn't give a fuck. So you can try to talk since into some people when they're doing mindless shit where they just don't seem to be able to comprehend their actions and the consequences and a fallout. But if they are hardheaded or what the Bible calls to reprobate mind you from such turn away and let their go.Cause you gonna worry yourself out. Try not reason with people who don't wanna be reasoned with. Yeah, Vernon: I agree with that. Like, this is why you gotta make sure you get them while like your family members while they're young, because once they adult, once they're past age 25, 26, 27, when that brain is finalized.Oh no. All you can do is just offer them help. Just like, you [00:54:00] know, have you ever thought about therapy? You know, it, it, I've been in it, it is great. It's wonderful. I don't know if there's anything I know, I, I, I, I know, oh boy, he ain't going, he ain't going for that and that's his problem. But for those out there who may have somebody who may be open to that, do your best to get them into some kind of therapy cuz it's, it's a lot of work dealing with the narcissist.It is a lot like they, the, the self-fulfilling prophecy that they want to set up for themselves with nothing but failure or nothing but their own demise that's on them and they love to do it. You don't need to, you don't need to put yourself into that at all. De'Vannon: Hail to the, no. You talked about masturbation as an option.Okay. One of the things that I would like to point out to people, another point that was very difficult for me to try to get across to he who must not be named, is that [00:55:00] masturbation is not like a secondary stepchild to physical encounters with people. You know, some people in this world think that masturbation is the consolation prize.You know, like I couldn't find someone to meet up with, so I guess I'll just have to, you know, wa it and go to bed. Like it's a thing to be sad about. You know, you, you touched on this briefly by saying someone could have like a solo relationship with themself. Mm-hmm. And do you care to dive deeper into why masturbation is not supposed to be compared to sucking dick penetrative sex group sex and why?It's simply just another option. And actually you can connect with yourself through masturbation. You can't do that when you're with somebody else cause it's supposed to be about that person. Masturbation is a powerful tool, depends on how you look at it. Mm-hmm. Vernon: So, Ooh, I love me. So masturbation now it's, masturbation is just another way for you to show yourself how much you love yourself, but do it in a sexual way.When it [00:56:00] comes to like self-care, let's, let's just, Put it broad and just say self-care. Self-care can include masturbation. When, when it comes to self-care, self-love, you are doing things that make you feel good, make you wanna love yourself, and all this other stuff. Masturbation is just another form of showing yourself some kind of love.It also gives you the opportunity to find the pleasure spots that other people cannot find or that they don't know about. It helps you figure out what your sexual I forget your not sexual cycle. It might be sexual cycle, but the flow of your your body when it comes to peak to fall, it helps you understand, oh, in this.Point of my body wants a little bit more nipple play, or my body wants me to rub on my legs some, or a different part of my body becomes a lot more sensitive. So let me explore that a little bit. While I'm engaging and jerking myself off, or playing with my clitoris or playing [00:57:00] with whatever body part that you want to play with, asshole, whatever you engage into, well, you get to know your body in a new a new way, a new sexual way that engaging with other people don't often provide for you.And it also helps. Give them the cues that they need to make sure that they're pleasing you Well a thing I like to tell a lot of people is that if you don't know what you like, how can you tell another person? Masturbation helps you find out exactly what you like Now. Yeah, sometimes when you engage with other people, they may do a little tickle, tickle somewhere.You just like, oh shit. I did not know. I liked that. Hold up. Can we revisit that one more time and Oh, yeah. Right there. I know. I said one more time. We're going to just make this last. This one moment is going to be for a day. Thank you so much, Lord. Thank you. When you get into those moments, yeah, they happen, but those, [00:58:00] those situations are a lot more rare if you if you don't already know your body.So masturbate, it's a, it's a spiritual connection based off of who the person is, how they practice their spirituality. So do it. It's, it's, it's De'Vannon: rewarding.It's all about perspective and perspective is everything. And but, but people, masturbation is not less than penetrative sex or meeting with somebody. It's, it's hell, it's sex. No, you don't have to worry about STDs. You don't have to worry about the games. People play on apps. You don't have to worry about getting cut up in the edbd pieces.You don't have to. I mean, it's all you. You can, like candles, put on some music, drip your honey over yourself. Mm-hmm. You make it a whole thing. Vernon: Now you about to make me go off somewhere and hold myself out. Jesus,[00:59:00]call me a bad bitch Vernon. Call me a motherfucking bad bitch. Choke me a little bit. Please stop.De'Vannon: Look while you playing. My throat's still a little bit sore from earlier today because that man was strong and so Vernon: I love to see it. De'Vannon: And y'all, y'all know your girl over here is submissive and loves to be dominated. And so, let me see here. I wanna touch briefly on sexual performance. I think every man I've ever gotten there from, and I don't know if this is God's way of pushing procreation along or what, you know, he feels some type of way. It's like he's, he, it's almost like. It's almost like you feel like he's going to a job when he's getting in bed and something like that.And if that's just the x y chromosome way, you know, fine. And not here to judge men for this. But I just wish that they would take, [01:00:00] I'm stepping into my full woman mode now. You know? I wish you men would take this, the stress off of yourself. It's cause it's kind of like a's some, an anxiety. Mm. You know, that comes over men and I'm all like, we're here, we're naked.So you've been accepted. So why the, I get that. You want to, I don't know why it's there. It, it, it can become corrupt though, because a lot of times these men are out here needing to have sex for validation of themselves. Mm-hmm. Even though he's trying to get you off, you know, if he, even if he gives a fuck enough to do that, a lot of times it's not out of care for you.You know, it's just, To make him feel good that he did a good job, you know, which I don't like that, you know? Mm-hmm. You know, it's about, it should be about both people being vulnerable and enjoying each other and giving each other, [01:01:00] whatever it is they have communicated is going to make them happy. Mm-hmm.Period. So what, what is this whole performance? I gotta do this, this stress y'all be bringing into my bed. Vernon: Hey. So I literally just did, like last month, I did a workshop that was based on per performance anxiety. And it, it does exist for a lot of men, and there are reasons behind it. Like when you look at the narratives that are pushed towards men, it is that you have to perform very well just so that you can keep your partner.If you're not bringing your A game, then, then this person's not gonna ask you back, which is also a, a hit to their ego. It is. You also have that if you do not perform well enough, you're less of a man, which also is a hit to the ego. So it's so many different narratives that are pushed for men in general that makes us want to perform or outperform other [01:02:00] dudes.So. We have to just really let that go and recognize that when it comes to sex, don't go into this with expectations that it's going to be top-notch. Go into that willing and ready to enjoy each other's bodies or multiple people's bodies because it's a, it is an experience that an experience that's worth.Being lived not worth being a film. It's not worth being something that you are performing like you are doing some type of porn. Porno. And porn is also another reason why there's a, a lot of performance anxiety because people think that this, these sounds that these people are making are real. That, oh, I'm supposed to have my partner screaming out my name and all these other things.But no, some people are silent. Some people do moan. Some people do sound like that, but that's just how they express themselves. And if you need that kind of validation from your partner, like that verbal, then you have to [01:03:00] communicate with your partner about that too. But you also have to explore why is it that I feel as though I need that validation?And a lot of times it's because that's the narrative that people decided to purchase because it was given to them. And you don't have to do that. Another thing is when it comes to performance anxiety, is that. When we meet new partners, our we engage in sex with somebody, there's that fear of being the the topic of discussion in the group chat.And, you know, when you're in the group chat, it's not a good thing. So that makes people want to perform a little bit better to prevent any kind of shame or in indirect shame from after that sexual experience. Like, if this is a person that you're not gonna ever meet up again with, why are you worried?Like, just enjoy yourself. So that's just some of the stuff, [01:04:00]De'Vannon: even if it's somebody that you love or you wanna get to know anybody who's gonna judge you and dismiss you based on your sexual performance. It's not a good person. Mm-hmm. Agreed. You, you are a human, you're a child of God, and God created sex.Not PornHub, not grinder, not none of those plates. I don't care how they seem to have a monopoly on it. But no, you are more than your dick. You are more than your pussy and your titties and everything. And these people who say are like, say size queens and shit. And they're like, unless you have a big black talk, don't come over here, or this or that.Okay. They have their preferences. It is not right for them to demonize it and make it seem like it's a negative thing. If your dick is under a certain amount of inches, just be like, I prefer 10 and above, but no, no tea and no shade against nine point 11 inches in flow. You know? You know, and so people just got all kinda like fucked up in twisted [01:05:00] minds, but at the end of the goddamn day, It is a human connection that's supposed to be a beautiful expression of something that God created is not supposed to be done in such a way that ever causes harm to anybody else in any way or to yourself and I that's, and I just don't think that that's what it is in society anymore.Mm-hmm. So, so men have performance anxiety and he cannot attune. I like, I don't know what the other people told you. I am not judging you, you know, for the dick size, but you cannot accept what I'm saying because you have this anxiety so deep within you that you're panicking with me, even though I am not the source of your panic.Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I've had dicks that have been two inches all the way up to 17. Okay. And people ask me, people ask me, what the hell do you do with a dick that big whatever You can. And so anything but wrong, wrong anything but wrong thing will let you out the room anyway. But he, he just take his dick and block the door.You can't get out, trust me. And so, [01:06:00] but the point is, the point is, I didn't turn down the two inch dick dude or the 17 inch dick dude, because I valued them as humans. Any, anything other than that, fuck 'em. You know? Let anybody make you feel bad because of your anatomy and shit like that. If you're too fat for them or too scared, whatever, fuck all that, because that's just insecure ass people

INTRODUCTION: EPISODE #100!!! AMOR ES ARTE | ARTE ES AMORLOVE IS ART | ART IS LOVEA memoir written by Andrew Velázquez Through the lens of lotería—the Latinx game of chance, I explore my experience of being gay, young, and a creative loco in East Los Angeles. I reimagine ten lotería cards to represent the people and events that shaped my first 40 years of life. Each chapter testifies to a lotería card image such as El Diablito (Little Devil), La Rosa (Rose), and La Muerte (Death). Using these cards of destiny, I find my true self to navigate the world. My memoir defies the conventional thinking that a sensitive, lonely barrio kid, traumatized by relationship abuse and family crises, eventually falls victim to gang violence, addiction, or suicide. I bring my stories and images together to show how I overcome self-destructive behavior and how I channel my energies toward a successful career in Hollywood's beauty industry. I tell an against-the-odds life story that connects self-acceptance to art and love. Andrew is also a makeup artist:This born and bred Angeleno always knew he was meant for a career in beauty. Andrew has created signature looks for some of Hollywood's brightest stars including Lady Gaga, Michelle Williams, RuPaul, Demi Levato, Neil Patrick Harris & Carmen Electra. As a makeup artist on ”Keeping Up with the Kardashians,” Andrew regularly created the sisters red carpet ready looks and at the 2010 MTV Video Music Awards, he was the key makeup artist for Florence and the Machine, including applying avatar-like body makeup for her radiant dancers.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Lots of Fan Clacking!!!·      Mí Corazón – Andrew's Makeup Line·      Amor Es Arte, Arte Es Amor – Andrew's Memoir·      Being Raised In The LatinX Community·      MADONNA·      Los Angeles Nostalgia ·      Prevalent Insecurity In the LGBTQIA+ Community ·      Coming Out·      Angels In The Psych Ward·      Andrew On American Beauty Star (Top Three)CONNECT WITH ANDREW: Website - Book - Makeup: https://AndrewVelazquez.comYouTube: https://www.YouTube.com/AndrewVelazquezInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/andrewvelazquez_Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrewvelazquezcom CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse & Codependency Support Groups (Virtual) - https://www.meetup.com/pittsburgh-narcissism-survivor-meetup-group/·      COSA – 12 Step Recovery For Victims Of Compulsive Sexual Behavior - https://cosa-recovery.org·      A Recommended Reading To Help Heal From Narcissism - https://amzn.to/41sg6FO ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: ANDREW VELÁZQUEZ [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Andrew Velázquez is here with me today to mark the 100th episode of The Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast, and that is a huge accomplishment. Y'all and I could not be more grateful. Thank you, God. Thank you everyone who listens to and supports this show now, Andrew has written the book, it's called.Love is art. Art is love or amor, esp.He also had the makeup line called me[00:01:00]and do the celebrity makeup artist and alsoan educator.Now in his memoir, Andrew defies the conventional thinking that a sensitive, lonely barrio kid who's been traumatized by relationship abuse and family crises must eventually fall victim of gang violence, addiction, or suicide. In his book, Andrew brings stories and images together to show how he was able to overcome self-destructive behavior.Establish a successful career and bring art and love together in a way that's never been done before.Now Andrew has created signature looks for some of Hollywood's brightest stars all including Lady Gaga, RuPaul Dimmi, Lovato, Neil, Patrick Harris, you name it. He's done. Please listen in as Andrew and I get real and vulnerable with you that are to help someone lonely, isolated, and hurting out there. We love you.Hello all of you beautiful people out there and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Devon, and I have with me [00:02:00] today for our 100th episodes, a beautiful, talented, incredible, lovely. Queer creative with a beautiful wavy hair that you see right there. Andrew Velazquez. Darling, how are you?Hello. Andrew: Good. How are you coming? So I had that, and if you need that sound audio again, that, De'Vannon: God, Andrew: that thing is huge. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. I'm gotta, I gotta get you one. I'm gonna send you one. De'Vannon: Gosh, that thing is to be beautiful. So y'all, so before I get into Andrew here, the 100th episode is a really big fucking deal.And why it is is because most podcasts is, I understand they don't make it to this point. People get into just about anything in this world for all kinds of reasons. And podcasting is one of those things that looks glitzy. It looks glamorous. So everybody wants to go run off and start a podcast. And [00:03:00]then you see most of them, I got like 10 episodes, 15 episodes, you know, or they might do like, you know, maybe like 10 episodes a year.You know, I hit the ground running a year before last, and I didn't stop. I released a show every week, nonstop, every Thursday, you know, you know, unless some shit done went down. But generally speaking, it's every Thursday. And so it's a really big fucking deal to make it to episode 100. This means I'm serious, that I'm committed.This is meant to be and it is gonna be here to stay. Andrew: Oh, happy for you. Congratulations, congrat. Congratulations. So happy for you. It is definitely a milestone. Yeah. Well earned, well deserved all De'Vannon: that. Thank you. And so, when I was toiling over who the hell I could get to, to share this moment with me Andrew's, Andrew's people reached out to me, and his story is so enigmatic, it's so cataclysmic, it's so polarizing, and I felt like I had so much in common with him.He's from Los Angeles. Everybody who [00:04:00] knows me knows the City of Angels is all I talk about. I love la I was out there in the military and everything. I'm obsessed with that city. And when I'm rich enough, I will go back and you know, I'm queer and I love me some Latin men, that's all the dick I used to get when I was out there.I, I've sat on plenty of Latin dick Andrew: and that's right. We're dangerous too though. We're spicy and dangerous. De'Vannon: So am I. So we always, along y'all, he's an author. He has his own memoir out. He and our both 40 years old, he's a celebrity makeup artist. He's worked with Lady Gaga, Demi Vato fucking like everybody.He's an educator. He's a spirit light worker. He is a healer. Y'all. He's, he, he's like me. You know, like, you don't have to worry about what you're gonna talk to with somebody like this cause he is done so much, you know, it's just how we're gonna get through this hour and give you credit. So he is literally [00:05:00] the definition of everything, and that is why he is here today for episode one.Double O tell us about yourself, Andrew: baby. Wow. I mean, that just, I, I have chills. Your listeners can't see this, but yeah. I am so honored to be here for your hundred episode. Congratulations on all of your successes and what you're doing. The service you provide, the light, I feel it, the energy that you're exuding, it's beautiful.And I know that your followers and your audience appreciate that too, because you're healing. That's why good things are coming to you. I'm gonna call you divine cuz I see only a divine human being in front of me and that's exactly what you are getting the divinity of, of life. And yeah, that's, that's my philosophy too is, you know, I first generation Mexican-American parents are immigrants from Mexico.They met in their teens and I was their first born in East La Boyle [00:06:00] Heights. And yeah, being raised in such like a macho area was a little difficult for me for being just a such creative, feminine, flamboyant kid. And everything that I was trying to be a kept being told that it was wrong.Cause you know, where my parents got married, it was like the church. I was raised Catholic, so I got baptized there. I did my first communion, I did catechism. All, you know, knowing that I'm sinning and because I like boys and trying to hide, that was just, It was heavy. It was really heavy. And my mom just was the first to be like my mentor, my icon.She introduced me to Madonna in the eighties, who I'm obsessed with. I am the proud owner of four Madonna tattoos. She's right here. There's, there's other ones. Yeah, this is from erotica. And she just celebrated her 30th year anniversary for the sex book, which was released here in Miami. [00:07:00]And so she was really like my first, I don't know, my first like muse, you know, watching my mom do her hair and makeup in the eighties and just taking me to cosmetology school while she was going.She just was fierce. Just drag hair, makeup, done, jewelry, accessories, and she was my queen. So for her to support my my arts and my interests in wanting to like be creative meant a lot for me. But, You know, helping raise my brothers. Cause I, I have three younger brothers and my dad worked as a mechanic during the day.A tow truck driver at night was a lot of responsibility for the oldest sibling to, you know, be a provider also and be their mentor. So I just remember like, I don't know, watching 9 0 2 oh saved by the bell and seeing the drama there. And I'm like, why don't I have that drama in my life? Why do these teenagers have all these dramas and I'm this perfect cookie cutter kid helping raise my brothers Like, this is not.[00:08:00] Hmm. So I made the drama and that's chapter three in my book called elto, which means little devil, I call it My bad. And that's really where I started to rebel. And, you know, we all go through like self-discovery and just that cross of like youth child into adolescence. You're not an adult. Yeah, it was just like an awakening moment.I went 180, I just flipped. Went from this perfect kid to just rebel partying with drag queens. Met my first club kids, went to the Rays and the nineties in LA was just all rage. It was so fun. They used to call me Space Boy and I would you know, dress in all these crazy like avan garde colorful outfits.And I finally felt like free and liberated with other creative people and, and queer people. Finally, like my first drag queens, you know talking [00:09:00] like Stacy Hollywood, DJ Irene, like these are the people that I used to party with like in the early nineties. Like it was the hard house. That was just the rage, right?Yeah. So Arena Circus the Alexandria Hotel, like, oh, I remember going to a rave at Knottsberry Farm. The K Rave. Yeah. And it was just so lit that these kids were jumping. Because NASP Prairie Farm had never done that. So they were literally jumping the gates trying to get into, into the rave and just like party out all night.But they canceled it right away and they shut it down. So they never had a rave at ATSP Farm again. But yeah, it was, that was, that was very liberating and finally feeling like I was part of this community. But with, with that nightlife there, there's also a dark side, right? There's also like alcohol, drugs and all of that.And finally, like, experimenting with boys and having my first experiences and [00:10:00] just being exposed to addict addiction and then realizing, oh, my mother, my mother's also an alcoholic and has been suffering from chronic depression. And I was basically her like right hand man. So that was the hardest part to, for her to she kind of like rejected me when I finally came out and.I just went through like, like a huge depression cuz here was this like queen that I used to look up to and then she said, no, this is the route you're going. Like, I don't want anything to do with it. And I ran away and left. But, you know, I remember I'm gonna be extremely vulnerable because that's like, what's, that's what's I think the most important thing to be authentic and, and expose like the truth to, to grow and learn from.But yeah, after a couple suicide attempts that were failed, I was [00:11:00] taken to hospital at psych Ward 51 50 where I discovered therapy. And I just remember having this epiphany and this like my aha moment, right? My my reality check where this young Latino man that was in that only spoke Spanish, looked at me and was like, Andrew, you don't belong here.Like you have a light. What? And, and this was, he was only telling me this in Spanish, and he would write me poetry. And I finally felt like, heard, seen and like I existed in that matter. So I remembered that very distinct moment saying, I don't wanna live this life. Like, I don't wanna go down this dark path.I realized the addiction can, can be real. And it's in my, it's genetically in our family. So I chose to follow my passion and my craft and my career. And at the age of 16, I graduated and took my GD and I just started my [00:12:00] my journey in, in the arts and the fashion industry. So fashion school, cosmetology school, and then working in retail, corporate cosmetics truly saved my life and.Here I am now been in the industry for 22 years, gonna be 23 next month. I've been independent freelance artist for eight years now. I'm a memoir, author of owner of a cosmetic company also. And it's all based around the same thing, like my culture, my passion, my craft. It's called Love is art.Art is love because for me, the other one cannot exist with the other. And in Spanish it's called. So that's the story. It's, it's a lot. I mean, to get the detail, you gotta read the book. I can't give too much away, but that's like the synopsis, De'Vannon: right? And so, yo the book covers beautiful, like he said, like the different cards and everything are on the front.[00:13:00]You know, in Spanish they call it Yeah. Good job. Good job. Yes. I was down till, like, a couple of weeks ago and they were complimenting on my Spanish, and now that I'm back here, it's like I can't fucking put three goddamn syllables. When Andrew: when you're in it. Yeah, when you're in it, it just, it just kind of rolls out. You gotta be in, in the community and then, or vela, that's when it really comes out.Exactly. Would all that, yes. De'Vannon: So I wanna go back and touch on a few things that you said. It, it registered me Absolutely heard you said that, you know, you were raised in that macho community and, you know, the, the Latino community can be very machismo, very toxic, toxically, masculine. Mm-hmm. And, you know, and so, mm-hmm.I remember when I was a kid, I was like super femme and everything like that. And I wanted to play with Ken and Barbie dolls and twirl [00:14:00] around and I'd wear my, me too, right? I'd wear my mother's heels and take a belt and make a dress out of an oversized shirt. And and my dad would take me out into the yard and, you know, insult me and berate me for being feminine and try to make me learn how to box and stuff like that.And I'm all like if I, Andrew: yeah, you're, you were in the De'Vannon: military. I went in the military when I was 17, but this is when I was like, in elementary school. He was out there trying to make me a man, whatever the fuck that's supposed to be, you know? I'm like, no, I wanna see what's under Ken's pants. Damn it.I know you're, Andrew: you're. Surprise though. It was just like flat or a little De'Vannon: bulge. Yes, I am a, I was a baby, right, Lester, when I was in the third grade deal with it. Judge me if you wanna. Andrew: And so we all had that. We all had that. De'Vannon: So I wanna know you mentioned you went from being [00:15:00] good to bad because everything was so good.You, you were trying to find the complications. I felt this way too. When I was in the church. I felt like I was a little bit too good when I get kicked out of the church. Then that's when I got caught up with the drag queens and the alcohol and the drugs. I became a drug dealer. Like you had felt, I felt liberated.I felt like I was being myself. I don't know if I was numbing some of that pain from being kicked out of church. I think I was with the drugs and alcohol. Tell me, did you ever get bad into alcohol or drugs or anything like that? Or, Andrew: or were you able to Oh yeah, absolutely. Yes, for sure. I definitely had some partners that, and some boyfriends that I probably were not the best choices.And in my book, this is chapter five , which is the spider. Just to give you a quick history on it, is Mexican bingo game of chance. And I was [00:16:00] mesmerized by all the artwork cause they resembled tarot, which I didn't even know at the time what tarot was as a child. Cause my mom introduced me to this game and my brothers.But later I realizing that with tarot and with Loya, each card has a symbol. So the reason I chose these tens specific cards is because they resonated with the timeline of my life. And so laa for me is the triggers and traumas of all the bad relationships. I'm not even gonna call 'em bad relationships.I'm gonna call them challenging relationships that have taught me because now I'm I'm at the point where I've done a lot of like self work and I mean, I'm still, I'm, I call myself. A student of University of Mother Nature and I'm always gonna be learning. And so all those moments have helped me realize, you know, that we're all just kind of like these lost little souls, like these lost little angels that are trying to like, figure out and navigate where the right path is.So these partners that I had that did have addiction problems [00:17:00] you know, at the time it was fun because like, yes, everyone's partying and you're just like, you wanting your wasted the quickest thing. I remember just waiting in line at Arena with like Mad Dog 2020 boondog, like the grossest stuff, but we would drink the fastest, cheapest shit to just like get the most shit wasted before we entered the club.Cause it was just like, we gotta get wasted before we get inside the club. Cuz we didn't, we were young, it was ages club, but we were not even old enough to drink and we were just, you know, getting wasted to. Loosen up dance and just like party all night. But through that, like fast forward into like my twenties, you know another Latino individual, this is a, I'm Mexican, so this is a different type of Latino.This, he was Columbian, Ecuadorian, and I just was a different world that I had an experience with, like the salsa me mbia, and then just [00:18:00] the, the lifestyle and the party of that culture. It just kinda like infatuated with me. But as as like fast and heavy and dangerous as it was, is as quick as I realized, like, whoa, this is, like, this can go dark.And he would drink all the time, you know, he would do drugs. He started going to like sex clubs and. I don't know what, where I was mentality wise. Like my self-esteem was just shot and I felt like this is the best that I can do, so I'm just gonna settle with it. I don't know, I really dunno where that came from.But I did, I got a D U I because this one time we partied and he wanted to continue to party and was threatening me if I didn't take him to get more liquor, that he was just gonna go to sex club and do like his own thing. So I felt like obligated [00:19:00] to, all right, I'm gonna take you. And he was driving and it was swerving and then I was like, no, let me take over.So a, after getting that D U I, I just, it was like my rock bottom. It was like my lowest of low because of the partner that I had chose the time. And I'm realizing later in reflection, like. I chose these partners for a reason. And I think I was trying to fix them. I think I was trying to groom them up cause I was introducing them to fashion and art and all that as well.And then all of a sudden they would change. And later I'm realizing like you were trying to fix yourself. Like you were actually, you are projecting what your insecurities were onto this individual and it just counteracted and affected you where you took the dark that was being, and, and you know, dark attracts each other, right?Like light attracts light. And so yeah, [00:20:00] I mean I, I obviously I'm not with that person anymore. Very happily married. We're 13 years together now and gonna be nine years married this May. And that's a lot for a gay man. And, you know, our, because it's, it's, but it's like I realized like I had to go through all those.Relationships and those triggers and traumas to, to like really fix me and love me for all of me. And that's when I, I was able to attract and the person that I kind of deserved and earned and, and actually saw me for me and didn't make me feel judged and didn't make, forced me to be something that I wasn't meant to be.You know? So I honestly, I'm even grateful for all those, those challenging moments for sure. De'Vannon: Right. And so I hear maturity, you know, in your words there because you understand how much good things come from the fire, from heat and intensity. You know, you've really [00:21:00]grown in life when you can grasp that and you don't look at problems and things that make you uncomfortable and things that hurt you as necessarily inherently negative, you know, cuz so much So when I, when I hear you talk about like the alcohol and the drugs and the sex, you know, vice.You know, it's one of the things that really take any anybody down in life. They are a gargantuan problem in the lgbtqia a plus community. Y'all, our people can't get picture is, can't get enough. Crystal meth, can't get enough, all that. Can't get enough Dick, can't get enough calm, can't get, can't get enough blow jobs, can't have enough origin for me.Andrew: For me it's work now though. But yes, there's always something De'Vannon: because you've grown to that point and you know, but before you had to go through being abused by all of these vices. And look, I'm not saying that there's nothing, anything inherently wrong with crystal meth and crack and cocaine and orgies and sex clubs.[00:22:00] But you know, bitch, when you at the sex club every night when you, and you leaving your boyfriend at home and not telling him you're going and when, or if you just at sex club every night, you single or you are high, Andrew: like it's gonna take a toll De'Vannon: eventually. It's gonna take a toll. But my point is, I need people, bitch, I need you to ask yourself what you really doing it for.Because after a point is not for the entertainment lonely or are you insecure? Are you seeking validation in these, right. Keep going back. So our community is hella insecure, no matter how pretty, we are always at the damn gym. Six packs, bubble butts everywhere. And don't nobody like the damn self. I don't see what the fucking point is.Andrew: What's the why? What is that all about? Like what? I'm still trying to figure that out. You know? What does RuPaul call it? Inner saboteur. Some people call it little bitch voice. Like, I think it's just learning how to navigate with that. Like it's [00:23:00] never gonna go away. It's always there. However you can. I, I think through writing this book and through the, the experience that I've, experiences that I have gone through have taught me that through trauma you can transform and triumph into power.You just have to believe it. You just have to know it. And, and really at the end of the day, it's being of service to others like, like you're doing with, with your audience and sh and, and sharing the knowledge and the, the growth. And that's, I think that's like the legacy we all need to leave behind as humans is through our, you know, journeys and our experiences that we can share that and, and share the growth and the tools that have helped shape us to where we are in a stable place, that, that truly brings happiness.Then that can also be infectious, just. And addicting as like alcohol and drugs and sex, you know what I mean? Like the positivity can also be just as addicting. And I [00:24:00] know that we share mutual podcast friends with a survivor to thrive and give 'em a little shout out. And they're on that same mission, you know what I mean?And I feel like it's not a coincidence that we've all been introduced to each other for, you know what I mean? During this time when it is the considered the, the most depressing time of the year, which is also my, happens to be my birthday December 27th. And now we're in January, which is melancholy and can be hard for our community or anybody going through mental health issues.So why not lift each other up and why not celebrate your struggles and, and transform them into something good, you know? Mm-hmm. Whatever that means for you. De'Vannon: The, yeah. Yeah. And I am gonna dig deeper into the mental health aspects of your book in just a moment. And y'all, like he said, you know, he's written his book to help the people's transparency that y'all heard me say a thousand times, [00:25:00] you know, is the greatest form of help because we learn and grow by listening to what other people have gone through.It is a trap when we think we're isolated and alone, when really the person sitting right next to us is either going through the same thing or has gone through the same thing. When I got H I v I thought I was the only one. I thought I was gonna die. I didn't know half the damn queens in Houston at the shit too.No one talked about that. We were too busy doing all the cocaine. Exactly. Doing all the cocaine at F Barn at South Beach, you know, and everywhere else. And at Jrs to do rather than to actually have real conversation. And so he, right, Andrea's wrote, written his book in order to help help some of you save your lives, to prevent you from committing suicide, to stop you from hurting other people, to stop you from hurting yourself.Cuz when you read that book, you're gonna know. Okay, this fucker went through the same shit. Maybe it's not just me. It is incredibly empowering to know that it's not just you or as they say over on Survivor, the thriver know that you are not alone. Andrew: [00:26:00] Absolutely. You said that beautifully. So I wanna know, and that, that's really No, go ahead.Sorry. De'Vannon: Yeah. I wanna know, you mentioned Catholicism from in the past. Mm-hmm. Where are you at in terms of spirituality today? Andrew: Like I said, yeah, I mean, I was born into that. It was it was all I knew, like it was, we lived on that block, you know, where my parents got married, where I was baptized, where I did my first commune and confirmation where I became a godfather.It was it was just when you're, when you're Mexican in east LA that's just what it is. Like, it just gets part, it's like peanut butter jelly comes with the territory. But And I I De'Vannon: about today specifically because people are born mm-hmm. Into all kinds of religions. I was born Pentecostal, you know, that's what you're okay for.Your family gives you, I don't feel like, like the learn behavior. Right. I feel like it's more valid once you become an [00:27:00] adult and you consider all the options. Mm-hmm. If you still wanna stay with that, then I think it becomes authentic. But until then you Yeah. What people told you to do. So what, what spiritually have you discovered for yourself?Andrew: I mean, obviously at that point, I, I, as a kid, I didn't agree with marriage only being between a man and a woman. And then, you know, just the, the history of the priests and the abuse and the, all that. I, I didn't agree with any of that. But even, even, even even Madonna too with Journey and her being Catholic and like a prayer and being the first advocate for l g BT Q, putting in her cd in her tape a condom and to protect se use protection for sex and literature on aids.Like, she was the first one to kind of give me a voice. And I, I felt seen, like [00:28:00] just the fact that I knew that I was gay. I felt like I was gonna get AIDS just because of that simple reason in the eighties and the nineties. But I mean, even that's kind of like part of my spirituality. So for me my husband and I go to non-denominational church.We are part of Unitarian. It's more of a communal thing. And it's more of just because they're accepting of everything. And the, the philosophy is to celebrate love, life human experiences. And it's, it's really lovely. I mean, it's. I ki I, I liked it because it brought me a little ba back to the nostalgia of the good things of going to church when I was Catholic.But I'm, I'm a spiritual person by Mother Nature and the universe. I believe in the law of attraction. I meditate every day. I practice gratitude. I journal, I visualize I consider my dogs my spirituality as well. I have dog, I have three dogs, you know, I have dog therapy [00:29:00] with them daily. I practice kind acts with others.I I'm an earth sign, so I love anything that has to do with the outdoors and just going on hikes and doing yoga. We're gonna do yoga tonight. You know, it's being healthy. We're both vegan, we're both animal lovers. My, my cosmetics is vegan and animal cru tea free as well. So I'm just, I'm a spiritual person as far as just energy, you know what I mean?Like this's just. What I love about being a human being is that I'm so connected with Mother Nature and we're all the same at the end of the day. Like there, it has nothing to do about your color of skin, your orientation, your gender, hus in your bedroom, what you eat, nothing like, we're all literally the same breathing things, elements, you know what I mean?It's looking at like, my veins is just like looking at the roots at a on a tree. [00:30:00] When you're like in a plane and you're looking down as the earth shrinks and you see all the little cracks in the rivers of, of earth, those are the veins of earth. It's all the same thing, you know? And so whatever spirituality is for the individual, if it makes them feel special and, and seen and that's, that's all that matters, whatever gives them that like happiness, that joy, that light.And for me it's, its mother nature. So that's my form of spirituality. De'Vannon: Okay. Look, I love to keep me a good garden in the back. I love eating off the, I love riding horses. You know, when I'm not riding Dick, you know, and everything like that. Exactly. Appreciate I can appreciate the fuck out of that. So, I wanna go back to this rejection of your mother because you know, she's a, you know, she sounds like the embodiment of a drag queen's in a straight woman's body.She supported you until you made it official. There's no goddamn way. She couldn't have already [00:31:00] known mothers. No, the bitch wasn't blind. I mean, I don't mean that insultingly. I mean that You're Andrew: good. You're good. De'Vannon: You know, I'm like, girl, you could see, you could read the tea. Andrew: I mean, I was going to the makeup.Yeah. So I was going through all De'Vannon: that. So, So you felt accepted and she already knew what it was. So it almost like for her, it might have been better if you never would've made it a official by saying the words. Hmm. So for those, for people out there, for queer people, especially Latinx people who have been rejected and there is a lot of rejection of L G B LGBTQ people because of how the Catholic church is, your culture is hella Catholic, you know?Mm-hmm. And so take me, take me back to when that rejection first happened and really give me some words to those feelings. Cause I want you to embody what somebody else is going through right there. I want you to vocalize that. Andrew: Yeah. [00:32:00] And 10th grade, and I, I think I had ditched school that day. I lived in a studio that was on the same property.My parents a lot of Mexicans do this where they build homes inside their homes and other. And it's just like a lot of houses. And so I, I, I was grateful for that cause I had a little bit of privacy, but my mom always had a key of course. And so I remember having my friends over the night before and we're listening to like Morris depe.And it was just kind like that vibe wearing all black, my doc Martins, you know, my black bomber jacket and drinking red wine and thinking we're cool and smoking marble red cigarettes. We were disgusting and clothes, but it was just, that was the thing that we did. And I just remember like waking up like hungover and it was time for school and I'm like, ah, I'm [00:33:00] not feeling it.I'm not gonna go. So I stayed home painted my fingernails and was just kind of like being lazy and just bumming around the house. And then my mom came in and like, just like, and Mexican moms. Can rage and just open the door and slammed and was like yelling, what are you doing in Spanish? Of course,you know, like all that kind of stuff. It was very . And and then she was like, picking up my jacket, picking up the bottles. She's like, what is this stuff? Why are your nails painted? Why are you dressing like this? What are you doing? Like, what are you gay? And that was the first time she had ever ever asked me that.And I finally like, I was so tired of yelling back and forth to like, I remember we were both yelling so much that we had to take a break to just take a, a breather. And then I finally yelled back and I said, yes, I'm [00:34:00] yay. You know, and a part of it felt good to just finally say it and vocalize it and to put it out into the universe, but also like seeing the sadness in her eyes did not feel good.And I just, I saw her like just kind of shrink and just, that made me shrink too. And then she just said, well, I don't support that. You're gonna have to leave you. If you're not gonna go to school, then you need to get outta here. And she left. And so I just remember feeling rejection alone, abandoned. Why am I here causing so much stress to all these people around me?And, you know, the per, the one person that I, that I thought was always gonna be my hero, that I, that supported me is now like, just telling me to get out and that I'm done with you. You're not good enough. Like when she said, De'Vannon: does she mean you no longer can [00:35:00] live here? Or when she's saying, I can't see your face today, what did she mean as a.Andrew: A teenager, I thought I took it as like, you, you don't, you're not gonna live here anymore. Like, if you're gonna live like that, you're not gonna live here. Like, those are the words that I heard. Yeah. That's how it sounds to me. So I, so I said, okay, and I, I did run away. Obviously I had to come back to get my stuff.And again, just going through the lows of the lows, seeing the alcohol, drinking that some more, discovering Tylenol pm, taking some of those. And the combination of it, I was just like, I was just, I was so sad. I was so alone that I didn't think I was able to get over this, like, low. So I just, I decided I wanted to take my own life.You know, I was gonna try and it [00:36:00] didn't work, you know, it didn't work. I woke up the next day. With my wrists, still bloody, but kind of like crusting and trying to heal just disorientated and dizzy from all the wine and the, the pills. And I'm like, all right, well, I guess I'm gonna go to work.I'm sorry to school. I didn't, it didn't work, you know, just put on my bomber jacket, go to school. I'm like, second period, get a call from the school counselor and says, you need to report to your school counselor's office. Get to the office. And they're like, your mom just called and apparently she went into your room and saw all this stuff and is really concerned about you.We need to see your wrist. And so I was hesitant, but obviously ended up showing, and they were like, all right, well you're a minor at this age in Roseville High School, we're not allowed to let you out of our site. We need to report to the center quad area, and we're gonna let you know what [00:37:00] is gonna happen to you then.So I get escorted with the security to the center of quad area. The bell rings and as the bell rings, the gates open up and an ambulance drives in as the ambulance is driving in the doors open and the security is escorting me into the ambulance. All the schoolmates come out running and seeing me getting into this ambulance and girl, I was mortified.I was, I was the most embarrassing moment and just kind of like, that's it. I'm over. I can never get back from this. There's no, there's not gonna be a way to fix this. You know what I mean? It was, it was very heavy, it was very embarrassing and exposing and was rushed off to White Memorial Hospital in Royal Heights, and they pumped my stomach and they stitched up my wrist and.[00:38:00]And yeah, I was admitted to a psych ward as a one 50 minor. It was who continued? Are you okay? Say what? I mean, it was, honestly, it hon, at that point I just surrendered. I, and I just kind of, I gave it to God at that point, you know, and was like, I'm just gonna be reborn. I'm gonna be a child. I'm gonna be infant.I'm gonna just let you guide me. This is where I'm supposed to be now to, to learn and to grow. I, I guess I'm gonna listen to these therapists. So I discovered therapy, which I fell in love with immediately cuz I'm finally being heard. I'm finally having tools and resources to, to help navigate my emotions, my feelings.And then I met that angel That young man that wrote me poems and [00:39:00] talked to me and said, you don't belong here. And told me I was special. And, and I finally like, believed it, you know? And that's, that's when I told you earlier that I made that conscious decision to not go down that route anymore.And I'm, I'm still in therapy to this day. I mean, it's not every week I mean like it used to be, but it definitely saved my life. And I feel that person was an angel. Cause fast forward to later, as I'm going through self-discovery and I'm writing my book and I'm journaling, I'm like, what happened to him?So I tried to research, but obviously through the privacy of hospitals, like they're not allowed to expose any information. But they were like, yeah, you were the only, they said you were the only one there in your room. So what the heck does that mean? You know, like they're saying that I was the only one in my room, but I distinctly remember this.Young man named Miguel telling me, you're, you're, you know, [00:40:00] you don't belong here. You, you need to follow the light. How long was Miguel? De'Vannon: That's crazy. How long was Miguel Andrew: in there with you? I mean, I, I was only in there for two weeks. He had already been there for a month. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I don't remember.We never exchanged numbers. Like So you think, I mean, we had pagers I think at the point, De'Vannon: right? So you think maybe it was, I remember the pager days. Beep, beep, beep, beep. Do you remember Uhhuh, I'm sorry you went through all of this and mental health is a big fucking deal in the queer community because a lot of our issues come from our parents because our parents have their own unresolved issues.The church has told them what to think about their own children. Not, not all mothers and parents are able. Be like, this is my child. I don't even a damn what the church has to say because, you know, our parents have their own issues. And so this is a huge reason why there's a lot of insecurity in our community.It comes from our own households. Now do you think this was son [00:41:00] who was in there with you, perhaps And y'all son, Miguel is just like son, son, Miguel, St. Michael, the Arche angel. Andrew: Yes, yes, yes. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I, it was definitely an angel and I, when my mom I, I was born two days after Christmas.I was supposed to be born like on Christmas, but it happened to be two days after. And she said cuz she was really into Like astrology. And she used to watch Walter Melo, I dunno if you know Walter Melo, who it was like the famous like tarot card reader in in the Latino community. It was like the thing that we watch religiously every Sunday, like after the, the, no, it was Walter.And he would tell you like, capric, Corno, tourist, blah, blah, blah. So she, cause of him, she used to tell me, you, when you were born, the sun, the Earth and the Moon and Mercury were line and you were born at 6:05 AM I, they gave [00:42:00] me you, you, they gave you, oh, sorry, let me rephrase this. They gave me you in a red stalking and as you're going in my arms, I just saw a big star on your head and a light on your right side.And I'm just staring at this little gift in this red, like stalking this and I'm holding it. And so she kept telling me that as I was. Growing up, like you have a star, you have a light on your, so I don't know, I, I can't help but go back to that, you know what I mean? Like go back to these little angels, these little whether it's whoever, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's a drag queen that past life, but she's saving me.That's what I like to I feel like we all have some kind of angel to protect, you know, some kind of either light energy, whatever you want to call it, you know, it could be our [00:43:00] past ancestors or ancestors. It could be maybe your past self and your reincarnate. I don't know. But something was there.It was very prevalent. It was, and it was the moment that I changed my mind. Otherwise, I could have gone down that addiction route. I could have gone down, you know, The gang route and like been in the closet and continued to live this straight life because of course I acted like I was straight forever.Because that's what you do when you're in that kinda environment. Otherwise you're gonna get clocked, you know, and jumped and bullied and I was all those things. But yeah, I, I can only say like now being with my husband, his name is Johnny Debut for 13 years. Accepting me for all of me. My femininity, my masculine side.He, yeah, he's just, he's my homie for life and he's the one that's just [00:44:00] I don't know my mean, like reminded me to love myself too. And I'm just very grateful for that. Cause it's been, we've had a journey on our, on our own as well and the good and the bad and but yeah, we're best friends. He is, he is just been The rock for, for everything.And I'm gonna be that right back to him too. For sure. Hey, hey Johnny, De'Vannon: Daniel, whatever you ask me, introduce Savannah and I'm saying Andrew: hello, hello, hello, hello, hello. De'Vannon: Hey Johnny, how will I get to have cocktails with you one day? Yes. So let's lighten this up as we get, we're down like our last couple of minutes here.So we've talked about some darkness, bring some light, and so yeah, we, we get light through darkness and angels are real. You know, I've spoken about how they've appeared to me before, all kinds of places on the side of the street and restaurants, you know, and there's [00:45:00] been times where it's like nobody else even sees this person in here.And I'm not the only one talking to them and everything like that. I turn around sometimes my husband sees them. Now look, y'all, they don't, I've never had them, except for in dreams appear to me in any sort of glorious way. When they appear to me on the street, they're just plain clothes people. And then we talk mm-hmm.Stuff like that. And I turn around and then they're gone. One of my favorite appearances is one time I was out in my yard, this is the last time I ever touched a rake in my life when I was in high school, raking these leaves. I hate yard work. I'm like, can we get a fucking, can we get a fucking maid? Do you see my nails?I'm queer. I shouldn't be doing this. Ugh. So, so I'm raking this fucking leaves and I hate wet ground and, ugh. This, this, this black guy walks down the street and he's just like, Hey, be careful for those poisonous snakes. Now we are in the hood, you know, just in the middle of the city. Oh, we're not out in the country.Why the fuck would there be a snake? He's like, were you careful of those snakes? The next [00:46:00] pool, there was a goddamn damn poisoned snake flopping all around in. They're trying, oh, hell no. I threw that right down. I'm like, I don't, not a snake. I don't give a damn with my dad. I want me to do, ain't no more chores being done in this yard.I looked up that that guy had told me this, like not a split second, and I looked up and he was gone. And I had something like that happen when I was a kid. You know, they'll show up, say whatever. I looked down and I'm like, he, they can't take nobody. Run that damn fast. You know? Or as or as the Hebrew scripture tells us, you know, we've entertained angels at unawares and be careful how you treat strangers.Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Absolutely talk about makeup. So y'all, like he said, he has own makeup line. Oh,Andrew: it was a good segue. It was a good segue. Had to do it right. And De'Vannon: every time he cls that fan has a title of his book, AOR Art Arta Moore. Or love is art. Art is Love. Yes. So [00:47:00] his first color palette is, is called Me Corone, which stands for my heart, you know, in Spanish. Mm-hmm. Go ahead and hold it up. So, Ooh yes.It ain't no bunny ram harm in making that. That's what I'm here for. That shit is vibrant. Thank you. You know, every now and then, you know I might beat this face up. You know, I'm gonna have to get your shit. Oh, I would love Andrew: to do your makeup. Yes. Let's make that happen. Oh, don't. I'm gonna De'Vannon: be in LA soon. God.I pray to God the next time I go to Los Angeles, cuz I'm in Louisiana where I live now. I pray to God the next time I go to Los Angeles it's, I'm there to stay. God. Need to go Andrew: home. Wait, I'm actually gonna, I'm actually wait, I, I'm going to Nashville in February. De'Vannon: That's a bit away from Louisiana still. I mean it might be kinda like Yeah, you're right down here by New Orleans and stuff.So whenever you come to Mar are you ready to do you a Mardi Gras carnival? Andrew: We do [00:48:00] love New Orleans. Yes, I do. I got De'Vannon: you hooked up bruh. So, okay y'all, so he bought this show called American Beauty Star and that, that color palette, he just showed up. You know, go ahead and tell everybody like, you know where they can find that.Your website is gonna be in the show notes. I'm gonna put your link tree so people can find you in case you wanna go ahead and vocalize it. You can tell them where they can find that in your book. Andrew: Thank you so much. Yeah, you. Search for the show on Amazon Prime, just type American beauty star, and you can binge watch me on season one.I'm right there working all the magic. That's where I started writing a book as form of therapy. While we were quarantined, I had no access to devices, so I would resort back to my hotel room and just start drawing and went back to my roots. What brings me passion is that's my, my craft. And then I wrote the book.This has been a four year project. The first year was to [00:49:00] write and edit the book. The second year was to design the cover of the book as well as the cover of each chapter. So I took 10 models and painted them from head to toe and turned them into these characters that you see on, on the cover of the book that represent Theia cards.And through the process of making the body makeup is when I realized there was like a lack of pigment. So I went into product development and that's where I chose to create my first palette, which is called . And you can see like one of the actual models wearing the colors and all the artwork inside is in, is in, is the artwork that's infused into the book.So it's all part of the same brand. And then through that, seeing my models get emotional and hot and you know, sweaty, I decided to also make a fan, which is also part of the same collection. And all the artwork from the book is infused onto the fan. And I lastly have a calendar. Which is good [00:50:00]for 2023.So this is the only way you can get the actual print of each card is by having your Amos Art calendar. So you can find everything on amos art.com or love is art artist love.com and that's where you can shop for the palette, the fan, the calendar, and the book as well. You can also go to Amazon and search for the book and just type Andrew Velazquez.And then my website is andrew velazquez.com for my salon portfolio and all the thanks, beauty tutorials, et cetera, De'Vannon: all the things. I love the options. You know, are you a Sagittarius as well? Andrew: US gays like options too. De'Vannon: You right. That's damn true. So, you know, I'm born on December 16th. I need everything.And so, Andrew: oh, nice. We're close. Capric the 27th Capricorn. Yeah. Capricorn. Oh, you can? Yeah, you can come. I have a [00:51:00] Saurus Rising double Capricorn with the Sagittarius Rising and all my besties are Sagittarius as well. You can come De'Vannon: to the Sagittarius Ki Keani. I'm gonna get you in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So this is, so I looked up a couple of the videos and y'all, I love Andrew's his Instagram and his YouTube channel or Clutch.He has this beautiful avatar, avant garde look that he does on this girl, which is so like on tempo right now with the way of the water just coming out. You know, he has a Marvel inspiration stuff that he does. Th this, he does full body art, not just face, you know, this is head to toe fear shit, bitch.Here. Shout out to Mama Ru Paul right now. So on, on this American Beauty star. We're gonna talk about Lady Gaga, RuPaul, dim Lovato last. It's gonna out. So you're good before that. American Beauty star. So I look this up. So you got this panel of judges, these people on here doing this makeup, Andrew's in charge of the full scale production for this Oh.Show and everything. And then they will [00:52:00] be judged just like you've seen on Project Runway, you know, all the different things. So Andrew comes out, this stone cold bitch is sitting there with like white hair, you know, white outfit. And the, the person that left the review, I, I don't, I, I don't think that was Christie.I think that was the other girl. And and Andrew: so anyway, it was Huda from Huda Beauty, De'Vannon: right? And so I think somebody might have thought she was a little bit too hard, but, you know, I was just leaving everybody's opinions for that. But you know, Andrew's out there on stage and they're like, are like Andrew and then all the stuff, no, every judge's face just has no fucking emotions.You know how they fuck with the contestants and, and they leave them there in silence. For, for what? Felt like an eternity for me. And I wasn't even the one on stage. Yeah. Felt like Andrew. He's all like, oh shit. The look on the look on your face. We loved your look.[00:53:00]Andrew: That's exactly how it was. Oh my God, you did your research. Well, you gonna be so goddamn dramatic right De'Vannon: now. I'm, I'm sitting here in my house, gimme a cup of tea to deal with this stress. And you know, Andrew did well. He made it to the top three. That's a big deal to be there that long with all of that shit going on.And I love the way that you would talk with your co, I guess competition, friends, I don't know exact term on set. Mm-hmm. You know, in the back. But it's almost like you were there like guide, you know, you were giving them advice and everything like that and like keeping them together. It was very nurturing the words you would say to them on this show.Talk to me about your experience on this show before we talk about Gaga. Andrew: Oh, yes. No oh my God. That it feels, what was it like five years ago? Yeah, it was five years ago. I had just wrapped working with [00:54:00] Tyra Banks on America's Next Top model. So, and that was like the third cycle that I had worked with her doing hair and makeup.And, and what I did while I was on Top Model is I absorbed her like a sponge, cuz I knew that this show, American Beauty Star was coming right around the corner. And so the premise of American Beauty Star was to basically be Tyra Banks create a director. So not only did I have to do hair and makeup, but I had to conceptualize and create the runway for the fashion show design, the wardrobe accessorize, design the nail.I also had to choose the music for the, the platform. I had to tell Emily Rose, the International Vogue cover director to photograph and tell the model how to pose. So all these things that I knew were coming up, I knew like, this is, this is what I do like this. I'm, I feel very good about this. I feel very confident going into this.And I'm gonna come in, in, in a [00:55:00] humble approach. And so that was my intent, right? Going into this and always putting the energy exuding out for my mother's health is what I would kind of like meditate every day on my own. Because they said, you're gonna be quarantined for three weeks. Do you have no access to your devices?You have no access to your loved ones. You're, this is a frozen hard environment, which is basically you can't talk, you can't speak unless the cameras are on. And it's a production strategy to conserve your energy for camera type. But it's also. A psyching test to test your patients, your stress levels.And it's so funny because that's where I started developing this little twitch that happens on my arm. It's actually happening right now as we speak. I don't know if you can see it, like the little eye on the, it's switching a little bit, whatever, to that degree. Yeah. And so and I never had that before until [00:56:00] this show, but because we were only allowed to bring paper and my old school like iPod, you shuffle, I would listen to music like Madonna Ray of Light.Obviously, you know, other people that would like made me zen. I came up with Zen Drew, and this is where I started drawing for the book and creating the concept behind of what I wanted to do. I didn't know I had a concept during the time of the the show though. I just knew that I was like, Journaling.This is my form of therapy. And so I, I, I, I listened to the direction from the judges. A Adrian a Lima is the host who I loved, and she's stunningly gorgeous, even more in person, more so in person. Serjan is our mentor whose Beyonce's makeup artist. And, you know because I had been in production on a reality competition show [00:57:00] before, I knew a little bit more, I had a little more insight on kind of what goes behind the scenes.But now I'm the one in front of the camera place on hard ice. So I kind of knew that there were, there was three parts to the, the production In the morning you would come in, dress in the outfit that you were in the last night's outfit that day we had to recreate for continuity, whatever we did on the challenge last night again.Then we would find out, like you saw with the white snow queen, that we were gonna stay or leave. And yes, I was sweating. My back was drenched and my arm was twitching. But my goal was to always listen to the, the, the feedback and put that into the next challenge. Then the second part of the day was your, your kind of like, your interviews and what you see in between they, they call 'em the confessionals.And so that's where oftentimes they would set you up with the producer [00:58:00] and they would ask you questions and I could pick up when they were trying to alter my answer or get something else outta me. And I would say, no, that's, that's not something that I would say. I'm not gonna say that. Don't ask me to say that.And I, I remember asking for a different producer when I didn't, when I was in vibing that, you know, the, this, this isn't coming out through for my best interest. This is coming out for. Airtime or production, and I'm not here for it. Like I wanna be authentic, Andrew and what I came up with, what's called my Zend.So they listened to that and I went, I had another producer, and she really made me feel like safe, made me feel heard, and, and, and I feel it's because of her. She was another angel that I was able to, to be vulnerable and to, and to be just true. And then the last part of the day was the next challenge.And then you're introduced to a new a new ex whatever [00:59:00] project you're gonna come up with. And I, I felt everybody's anxieties, right? I felt everyone's trying to, like some people were trying to be shady. So the what you see is real, you know, some of it, yes, it's beefed up because they want to stir up some drama specifically on America's next time model.But for American Beauty Star I think they were, they would, they would find. People's strengths and weaknesses and then enhanced them by and, you know what's the tar the right word? By instigating stuff and by asking right questions and by like probing. I wasn't here for it. I think they picked up on that.I think that's also why I didn't win. But I think that's why I made it to the finales because they knew like, oh, this guy, he's well put together. He's corporate, he's professional, but I wasn't drama. You know what I mean? And because I sense everyone else's anxieties, I would try to give them positivity and, and give them zen as and just tell [01:00:00] 'em to, Hey, just trust your, in your intuition.Just go with what brings you joy and follow that regardless of what everybody's telling you. Like follow that. And I feel like that's kind of like what helped me stay at towards the end. Although I didn't win in the winning title, I won so many other ways and growth and exposure and experience, I was able to open up a salon after that.And I'm very grateful for it, you know what I mean? Would I do it again? Absolutely. I would bring it on all stars. I will come back on season four and go up against my students, go up against whoever. And I'll win that. I'll win that bitch. I'll take that bitch home. Hell season four all stars. De'Vannon: Take me with you.I can I can supply the underwear. I'm sure y'all need a pit crew for my down under apparel brand. Hey, I can do something. Andrew: Let's go. De'Vannon: Okay. So then, so as you thank you for that breakdown. I love you had this fabulous experience and I just speak more exposure over you and riches, both in this world and in the one to come and in the [01:01:00] unseen realm too.Yes, Andrew: yes, yes. Between De'Vannon: Lady Gaga, RuPaul and Demi Lovato, which one of these can you give us the most dramatic story from, from working? Andrew: I mean, I can, I can talk about all of them briefly. Who did I work with first? It was probably RuPaul. We, Mac Cosmetics was the sponsor brand for season one, and through that sponsorship, David not only provided the cosmetics, they provided artistry support, which was myself and I managed the pro store on North Robertson in Beverly Hills and West Hollywood.So we were like the flagship that all entertainment would approach for. Sponsorship product, artistry help, whatever it was. So I worked on season one and we were in charge of just doing the guest judges. So I did like Michelle Williams from, you know, Destiny's Child. And Ru [01:02:00] Ru is just great.She's just such a big flirt and just you can feel her energy when she comes into the, the room. And this is still season one, so it was very fresh. I was invited to come back for season four this time through an agency and still do the guest judges and the pick crew as well. So we had to oil them up and and then you can see me actually on season four in the background cause they would sometimes have us be in the audience.And this is the one with Sharon Needles. I think who else was. Fifi O'Hara and they're fighting like on the wwf, kinda like wrestling. So you can see me in the back, like yelling. So that's a little behind the scenes. And then Gaga was through Sharon Gold, who was Madonna's hairstylist during the Blonde Ambition tour.And Sharon we're shop with us at Mac frequently to get product, to get her discount. Cause we offer, they offered a pro membership [01:03:00] discount for anybody in the industry. And so she hit us up once and said, Hey, I'm coming in tomorrow. Can you make sure that we have. A little private area. Yeah, absolutely.Yeah. We're gonna need your face charts, your pigments, and some brushes. I have an artist a musician that I'd love to introduce you guys to. She's new. She's up and coming. Okay, great. This is like during MySpace, right? So she was, they kept calling her a MySpace artist. I'm like, all right, cool, whatever.MySpace come in. All good. So here I meet this little tiny brunettes you know, skinny young, like 20 year old. She was like, twinky, right? Her name is Stephanie. And she is like, how do you, what do you do with these space charts? Show me how to use these space charts. I'm doing this music video and I want you to work on the music video.I'm like, okay, cool. Yeah. So I was Sharon's assistant for the music video love game. But again, not knowing who this individual was, I didn't even know her artist's name until we got to the set. And now they're saying, oh, you're working with Lady Gaga? Who's Lady Gaga? What is that? What does that [01:04:00] mean?And literally, In like a matter of two weeks, she was on logo Next, next now award show and overnight she just became this huge sensation and her album just like skyrocketed. And that was it. Like that was the one time consulting with her in the store and then working in the music video. And I will forever take that to my grave cause she's Queen, you know, to all of our LGBTQ community as well.And then Demi was for another big queer moment during the la gay Pride. And I was in charge of the avant garde body makeups. And I was also able to do her like glam that morning for a really don't care music video. So it was a 13 hour day. She's such a hard worker. I remember she just came back from Paris.She, this is when she used to shave the [01:05:00] CI of her hair. She's like, You know, can you clean me up? I didn't bring clippers cause I wasn't aware that I was gonna do like grooming and I, I just was prepared for makeup artistry. So I had to, th this is another fun fact I'm gonna share with your audience. I had to taper and sh and shave, fade the side of her head with lash scissors and a mascara one and just like a cute little blend to make it look tight.And then the rest of the day was turning these dancers into like mannequin avant garde, like avatar makeup. So like blue, pink, gold and black. And it was hot during real life on afloat, during la gay pride in a little pickup truck behind her, touching her up every so often and touching them up. Just exhausting, but, you know, really, really great to work with.And she was very gracious. And this is when she was dating I forget his name. The my Latino, I should [01:06:00] know his name, HETE. But anyhow, it was a, it was a great experience. She was fun. Gaga was fun, RuPaul was fun, and I love them all as artists. I think what they represent as, you know, ex a self-expression and what they do for our community is just, is awesome.So I'm gonna forever take that to my grave. Hell yeah. And De'Vannon: look, I hopefully you get to work with them again. I speak it so. Mm-hmm. So I've

INTRODUCTION: Adrienne Zetty Barrows in fully licensed funeral director, embalmer, crematory retort operator, and life, health and accident insurance producer. She has an academic background in Religion, Philosophy, and Psychology, and strong community development and educational outreach skills. Adrienne is committed to the values and standards of independent and family-owned funeral homes. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Insight Into The Mortician Profession·      Themed Funerals!!! #MardiGras·      Let's Talk Embalming ·      Paranormal Activity In Funeral Homes·      Can't Escape Karen – She Shows Up At The Funeral Home Too·      COVID-19 Burnout·      Accept That You Can Die At ANY Age – You Are Not Guaranteed To Get Old ·      Dangers In Donating Your Body To Science·      The Importance Of Life Insurance CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com   DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Adrienne Zetty Barrows[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host of. And today I have with me a lovely woman by the name of Adrian Zeti Bar. Adrian is a fully licensed funeral director and embalmer, a crematory retort operator, and life health and accident insurance producer. So in the day's show,we're gonna be talking a lot about death, and we're gonna give you an [00:01:00] inside look into the life and profession of a mortician. We're gonna talk about covid 19 implications, paranormal activity in funeral homes, the importance of life insurance people please it. Life insurance, like seriously. Uh, the dangers in donating your body to science, cuz it's not always what it seems.And the fact that you need to accept that you can die at any age and that you're not guaranteed to get old. Please listen seriously and please share this with someone you love. Hello all you delicious souls out there and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host, Devon, and I'm here with my homegirl Adrian Zeti, who is a mortician.Yes. I'm talking with a woman who deals with the dead today, darling. And I cannot wait to get into it. How the fuck is you doing? Adrienne: I am so excited. I just finished my funeral directors and morticians have [00:02:00] difficult schedules most of the time, so I'm just finishing up my 10 day. So I am doing absolutely nothing today except for talking with you, which I'm very excited about.Ooh, De'Vannon: I'm excited to have made it on your schedule. So I want to read over a few statistics before we get into like the questions. And so, you know, it is very rare you come across a mortician unless somebody didn't died, you know, you, you know, as a friend or in passing. And so this is a very, very interesting career field that a lot of people just, it's just not talked about.So, absolutely. You know, it's not, it's not like you're gonna be at dinner and be like, oh, so, you know, I was dealing with this body the other day, or whatever the case may mean. So, So in my research, and this, this website that I pulled this information from is called Zia, Z i P P I a.com. It says there are over 22,000 funeral [00:03:00] directors currently in the United States.64.7% of them are men, and about 35% of them are women. I was pleased to, to research that women are paid the same as men. Kinda. Adrienne: No, it's true. It's true. But so you have to look at, typically if you have a male dominated field, when women start coming into that field, rather than women's base pay rising to meet their men's, more often than not it the average salary goes down, sadly enough.So but yeah. So with assertiveness and shrewd salary negotiations typically yet is, it, is. It is pretty equal. And I would like to point out, yes, it is majority male field at the moment, but all, almost any funeral school, any funeral program is gonna have a majority of women in it at this point nowadays.So all of the new funeral directors, so people coming into the field right now are by and large [00:04:00] majority women. For instance, in my graduating class, I think one, I think there was one guy, maybe two guys made it. I'm not sure there's one. I don't think he passed final. But but the, you know, 90% of the class was female.De'Vannon: Do you think that that has to do with a breakdown of the patriarchy? I think, Adrienne: I think it has to do with. Hmm, that's a good question. I think it has to do with women. The value that women add to funeral services is it's kind of unique. There's a certain kind of warmth, I think, and a tenderness that we bring to it.Not to say that we're not all tough broads, you know what I mean? Like we can still hold our own with, of fellas in terms of the physical demands and the emotional demands of it. But I think there's a certain there's a certain qua I think that women add to funeral service, and I think that's appreciated by families.And [00:05:00] so I think women, well, you know, when I first started I think a lot of families kind of would see a female funeral director and think it was like the B team coming out. So I know that's your eyebrow raises exactly how I would feel the couple of times that I've encountered that. But as soon as they, they experience the kind of service that we're, you know, that, that women offer, I think that that.Breaks down any kind of misgivings that people have because it is a traditionally male career. So, Hmm. De'Vannon: Well, well, yeah, I would say then that then it, it's probably along that patriarchal like breakdown. Cause what, what you're saying is they didn't think that you could do it just cuz you're a girl and Correct.But the proof's in the pudding and, you know, the world is changing now and it's not all about old white men running every fucking thing anymore. Exactly. Adrienne: Exactly. And if you notice, it's old white men, bless their hearts [00:06:00] that have kind of painted the industry in a corner to a certain extent. You know, it's, it's the old, I don't know if you've seen the movie The Big Lebowski, but there's a scene where one of the characters dies and they go to the Mortician Hall says, this is our most modestly, you know what I mean?There's a certain kind of attitude or approach to funeral directing and how, you know, how we monetize the services that we offer people, you know what I mean? So, a lot of the misconceptions that people have, not just about female funeral directors, but a lot of people have a very negative impression of the industry in general.So I won't say we're as bad as car salesmen used car salesman use car salesman. But a lot of people, you know, they come, you know, they're sitting across the desk from the funeral director for the first time. If they've not had that kind of experience, they just kind of know what they know from TV or from, you know, what happened with Aunt Gladys's service or you know, they hear something and so they come and they're sitting down across from me and they have, a lot of people are very guarded because they [00:07:00] have this idea that my job is to separate them from their money, you know, to try to get them to prove how much they love their mom by spending more on a casket, that kind of thing.So those fears from the general public are from generations of. You know, same old, same old kind of treatment. And so I think women coming into the industry, hopefully is kind of helping the industry itself to express value to consumers, you know, so that we, we can really show them that it's not just, you know, sell you our, you know, whatever kind of, whatever they're trying to sell you.It's not about that. It's about family care, personal care to their families. So hopefully it's redefining the value that we offer. Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: Nothing like some good value, honey. Now, one this, this website also is saying that funeral directors are most in demand in Tucson, Arizona. [00:08:00] And now if that, I don't doubt them, but I wonder why.And I used to live in Tucson when I was stationed in the Air Force. I wonder, have you heard of any kind of like, demand in a certain city or state more than another? Or, or do you have any idea why? In Tucson that you'd, video1042642136: I Adrienne: think it probably correlates to a higher retirement age population. So if Tucson, Arizona is a popular area for folks to retire to when they're tired of the cold, you know, Northeast Winters that they would go to Miami or Tucson, you know what I mean?That you'd have a higher demand for funeral services in general. That De'Vannon: makes sense. That's my best guess. That, that makes perfect sense. You're so smart. I love that. We called it, we called them snow bunnies when I was Station. Yes. Adrienne: There. I've been called a snow bunny before. De'Vannon: Oh, we're not talking about role playing honey.Or, or, or, or getting our Wolf of Wall Street on too. [00:09:00] If you haven't seen the movie, then you'll know what I mean with, with the snow button references there. Yeah, so there's like, whenever starts to turn cold in Arizona, there's this large migration of RVs and shit that just swarm down into Tucson or wherever, whenever starts get cold in general.Cause some people gets to fuck away from the, the ice and they come down somewhere like that. That's not, that's, that's not gonna be iced out. And I, I'm sitting here thinking like, I wonder if it's like a breaking bad reference. It's like people getting shot up or whatever. But what she said made more sense.Adrienne: Well, no, but that, that could be a part of it too. I mean, it could be sad to say, you know, with substance use issues sometime play, play into it. So if you have, you know, endemic issues in, in a, you know, larger metropolitan area, that might sadly, you know, bring up the death rate. So you mentioned De'Vannon: Like school, what kind of training?Is [00:10:00] required. And then tell then tell us, well, before we get into the training, tell us exactly what you do and tell, explain to us the difference between a funeral director, mortician and an undertaker of what your Okay. Title. Adrienne: So some of some of those titles are a distinction without a difference kind of things.So, and some of 'em are just kind of more old fashioned. So like the old guard would more often than not identify themselves as a mortician or an undertaker. Nowadays more people say funeral director, it's a little imprecise because and it does vary state by state. But, so that could mean that they are just front of the house, so to speak, that their only job is to sit and meet with families, to plan services, to make funeral arrangements and or to take out those services, you know, go out to church and stuff.But in that, it could also, so most of the time I would introduce myself as a funeral director. Now I am also an embalmer, so I do front of the house and back of the house. Some states [00:11:00] it's some states it's one license to do both duties. In other states, you can get a funeral directing only license or an embalmers only license.That's a little less frequent. And then, and also, you know, there are some states that are either completely unregulated, like Colorado or states like Florida that have introduced something that's kind of like, I, I don't wanna, no offense anybody, but like funeral director light. Like it's a, it's a, it's a, it's an easier to obtain license that allows them to do most of the jobs of the, the front of the house of funeral directors under the guidance of a full fledged, fully licensed funeral director.So, but it's, it's, those are the three basic duties, the making arrangements, carrying out services, and then, you know, embalming back of the house. Whatever kind of prep work and care for the actual, the, the physical care of the decedent [00:12:00] that we, we De'Vannon: take care of. So when you go to school for one, do you go to school for all of them and they just kind of train you on everything or, Adrienne: and then, yeah.Most of the time, I'd say like the most, the, the, the typical route is going to be bef there's before Covid and after Covid. So I would say after Covid I mean, online schooling was existed before Covid certainly, but it seems like that seems to be primarily, you know, how most people since Covid go to funeral school?So I, I went well before Covid and so I physically went to school. So I, I went to I physically showed up in class every day, and it's a two year program. So most of those programs are something like, they'll have like a base requirement. Like you, you'll have to have had. Let's say 60 hours of something, just something just going to college, you know, math, whatever.And then after you have a requisite number of hours you can apply to be in the program. And then typically it's a two year program. It's an associate's degree in most places. There are some [00:13:00]places and a couple of states that actually require bachelor's degree. But majority of time it's it's a two year associate's degree program.Some of the programs are a little more regimented. Some of them are more flexible. And by that I mean like there are some programs where you take class 1, 2, 3, 4, and then the next semester you take 5, 6, 7, 8, versus some other programs that are a little more self-selecting for the students, but that tend to take longer.So it might take four years to graduate, for instance. So but it's pretty, I, I always joked I should have tried out for Jeopardy after I finished funeral school because you study a little bit of everything. So, I mean, there's, there's, you know, history, religion, law, accounting, computers. English, chemistry, pathology all, all kinds of stuff.It really runs the gamut. So it's pretty challenging and difficult. And then once you, you know, typically you pass, you [00:14:00] graduate from your program and then you have permission to sit for the national exam, the national board exam, there's two parts. Funeral directing and embalming, or well, and arts and sciences.And then you are licensed by the state and then you do whatever you're doing. Now there's also mixed in there an apprenticeship. So you have your schooling and then you have your actual work experience. And the two are surprisingly different. So what you're learning in school is to pass the national board exam, and it's very frequently it's a different, at the very least, it's a different kind of information than when you're actually practicing funeral directing and involvement.Do you see what I mean? Like what, what your day-to-day skillset looks a little bit different in the reality of it versus the school part of it. I'm sure that that's, you know, that that happens in other professions too, I'm sure. De'Vannon: Right? The, but why did you choose this career path? Did you, did you feel like it was a calling?Do you feel like it [00:15:00] was like a spiritual thing? Like of all the things you could have been in all the nine realms? Why, why this, Adrienne: that is a great question and I I came into it relatively late, so I had you know, I've gotten my bachelor's 10 years before I decided to go to funeral school. And for a long time, I guess in my personal case, it was important to me that I find meeting in what I do, like, I, I wanted to make sure that I, you know, I come from a long line of some, some good people that you know, you know, Social workers and psych psychiatric nurses and a, their whole careers were spent caring for and dedicated to people.And so I kind of wanted to do something that felt like it had that kind of impact. But, you know, I got a degree in philosophy and religion, so I ran a college bookstore for 10 years like you do, you know? So I, I, I guess I had a couple of life experiences. I had a couple of friends that either died or had a, a close, you know, close family member die.And [00:16:00] through those interactions and those events, I think that kind of planted a seed. And when I decided against law school, it kind of occurred to me personally that I, you know, I would've been a good lawyer, wedding planner, the. Pastor, nurse Carpenter, like all of the different component skills that you kind of smoosh together to make a good funeral director.But once, once that occurred to me, and I was into my thirties, I was well into my thirties, it was like, duh. You know, and then I like ran the thought past a couple of people who know me, who know me best, and they were like, oh yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And then from there on out, it was, that was it.And I, I've been doing it full, full course ever since. And it's, and you're right, to me, it is a, it is a vocation, it is a calling. It's not something that you just do like, instead of, you know, getting your insurance license. Do you know what I mean? You don't just capriciously happen upon it. I don't think, I, I think the best funeral directors would be hard pressed to find happiness in any [00:17:00] other line of work, if that makes De'Vannon: sense.It makes perfect damn sense. But have you ever, have you ever thought about getting out of this career field since you've, oh, you Adrienne: always kind of have to have, I don't wanna say an exit strategy. But it is a, it is a quickly changing field, and so I'm a very opinionated, strident kind of person. And so far I have been able to afford my integrity throughout my career.But, you know, you have to be able to you know, you gotta keep working and you have to, you know, if, if there ever comes a time when you're not gonna be able to find an environment that you're comfortable working in, then you have to have an exit strategy. And it's also incredibly physically demanding.It's almost every embalmer I know has a bad back and a lot of 'em have cancer. So it just kind of comes with the territory. It's, it's, you know, it, it's constant exposure, not constant, but I mean, it's, it's plentiful exposure to some pretty nasty chemicals. And while there are [00:18:00] certain safeguards that we take, there's a certain amount of risk, you know that we, that we take De'Vannon: on.Well, that brings me to my next question I was gonna ask you about like pathogens and physical safety and things like that. I was thinking in terms of like coming in contact with blood or whatever that is, you know, whatever's in the body, but where the fuck are people getting cancer from? And it's, I mean, you say it's so casually as though, oh well another person.Not like you don't care, but like, it happens so damn much. What, but how, how, how can, how can cancer be that prevalent in your career field and people aren't getting sued or something? Do you have to sign like waivers or some shit or what? Adrienne: No, but it's, I guess it's just something that's understood specifically when we go through funeral school and we take chemistry classes and we know about, you know, we know about the dangers of formaldehyde.So there are chemicals that we use in this country that other countries don't allow cause of that, you know, [00:19:00] kind of from the protecting the practitioner kind of point of view, we don't really have those kind of. Protections. You know, I think and, and I mean, I, and honestly, I don't know many people in the industry that are like fighting for those protections necessarily either.So it's just kind of an accepted risk that we take, I guess. De'Vannon: Ne it works for y'all. Let it work. It works for me too. Adrienne: You gotta die somehow, you know what I mean? So the fact that that we have a little bit more exposure, you know, it's, I think it's that sometimes we're called the, the last first responders, but I think a lot of first responders have that.There's just a certain amount of risk that you have, you know, er nurses and you know, cops, firemen, you know, it's, it's service. We're doing service. I'm certainly, I don't wanna compare us to, to the, the real first responders, as it were, but it, it's a similar kind of, there is risk that is inherent to the job, [00:20:00] so we do what we can, but it's always gonna be there.De'Vannon: Everyone has their role to play firefighters or whatever, but having to do with somebody's last rights is a, is a high honor as old as time. It is, it's sacred. Adrienne: It's it's sacred. And that's kind of the joke I make is that you know, when most people talk about the world's oldest profession, hey, let's talk about something else.But in truth you know, funeral, you know, funeral, the, the job of caring for the dead has been around since time. Im memorium. So, so yeah, it is, it is. It's, it's, it's sacred. It really is. So it's, sometimes it's a, it's a lot of day-to-day stuff too. You know, it's a lot of bureaucracy and logistics and that kind of stuff.But when you really get down to the core of it, when we're interacting with families, when we're there, we're the first people that, you know, we're the first call. It, it is, it's a high honor. [00:21:00]De'Vannon: For the schooling, do you have to do continuing education courses every year? Adrienne: Yes. Most states. So there, like I said, Colorado for instance, there's not a license that's required to practice in Colorado.So I think in that case, there's not and certainly the rules are different in some states it's, you know, 24 hours in a year, 12 hours, and yada, yada, yada. But yes, there is absolutely continuing education and hopefully, you know, practitioners are excited about that in the sense that just the developments in science and, and the, the way that the chemicals that we use are evolving and there's always something more to learn.video1042642136: So. De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. How many funerals do you do a day, or what's the most you've done in a day? That's hard to Adrienne: answer because, so a funeral versus. Making funeral arrangements. So there are, I would say nowadays in most places, cremations, specifically direct cremations. So that's a, that's a cremation with no associated rights or [00:22:00] services.So it's, it's for the most part, a matter of paperwork so that a body may be cremated and then you return the herb to the family and that's it. So I think for the highest volume firm I was at, I think I was handling like 12 to 14 cases a week. Now, of those only maybe two or three would actually be, and would involve a church or like going somewhere or doing something or viewing the body or doing any of the associated rights.So and it's, it's different rates in different communities. So in Louisiana where I first got my license, there's a lot of Catholic. And Catholics have a lot of rights and rituals that are associated with, with death and with burials. So we had a lot of services there. So, but I've also worked in more kind of secular communities.I worked around, you know, in, in New Orleans when Covid hit, so there were a lot of services where there were no services. It was just, [00:23:00] it was just here for the deceased and thatDe'Vannon: was it. Right. And so she mentioned Louisiana. She used to live down here. She's up in Maine now. I am eating up on my damn lobster.Adrienne: That's a big ass crawfish up here, huh?De'Vannon: I like your style. I'm picking up what you're putting down baby. So so how many, what's the most amount of bodies you've embalmed in a day? I'm just trying to get a feel for like, in a Adrienne: day. Mm. Three, maybe four, but I'm not I'm, I'm a very good embalmer, but I don't consider the speed with which I embalm a body as a, as an indicator of how good I am at embalming.So there are some embalmers that are like, I can embalming 45 minutes or something like that. So, but to me that the timing of it doesn't reflect the quality of the embalming. So for the most part, you know, it takes, I'd say an hour [00:24:00] and a half, two hours. They could be a lot longer, they could be a lot more complicated.That it every, literally, everybody is unique. And so certain things you wanna, a one pointer would be the, the, the thing that the embalmer most efficiently is gonna go for. And that's where we only have one point of entry into the arterial system. But sometimes, you know, shit happens and you, you have to raise other sites.And so every time you have to raise a different site, that adds on time. video1042642136: So De'Vannon: do you remember the first body you ever mbed? Adrienne: I remember the first autopsy body that I encountered. No, I do actually, no, I do remember the, well, not the first body that I embalmed. I remember the first time that I saw an embalming.Okay. And it was at one school that had, essentially, they had the contract that they would care for all of the indigent populations. So if a [00:25:00] homeless person passed away, they would kind of cycle through the funeral school and then go be cremated. And so the very first embalming I saw was a little off-put to me because it was kind of like, you know, the teacher said Go and then you'd have like five students just like go at it and it.It felt very un sacred, I guess. And so I was like I don't, I don't know if I can do this, you guys. So, but then I went back and then I, the next embalming I saw was kind of a, a demonstration. So it was someone who was coming to, to show a specific skill. So it was one embalmer working on the body, and he was much more respectful.And I, and that, that kind of helped me feel settled a little bit, you know? So but yeah, so I do, I do remember that, and it is quite an adjustment as is, like I mentioned, the autopsy. The first time I saw, I walked in and saw an autopsy body, I would said to my classmate, if I pass out, I'm [00:26:00] not even embarrassed because this is horrifying.It's, it's really existentially distressing, you know, to see So, but power through it. And that's that's, I think the thing that helps people kind of get over that bump is, like I mentioned, kind of the craftsmanship of it. That we put people back together and so they, they, they leave look at a hell of a lot better than they did when they came in.So that's, that's the goal. And so that's part of, I think how, how we could deal with what we deal De'Vannon: with. So with an autopsy, are you like peeling the skin back and digging in there versus with embalming, you're like using more like tools to put stuff in? Adrienne: Yeah, so for an on autopsy body, personally, I try to be as minimally intrusive as possible.So yeah, so we would try, if I can, if I can raise one area and that is sufficient to accomplish what I need to accomplish with arterial embalming. Great. With autopsies, you don't [00:27:00] have a choice. It's already, it's already been decided for you that it's, it's gonna be a different process. So but yes, it's, it's very, they're, they're opened and then you do what you're doing with the arterial system and you treat everything and then close 'em back up.But. Yeah, it's a lot. De'Vannon: Talk to me about the paranormal activity. Cause so a person, you know, when they die, when their spirit depart, like is severed from the body, but when they're in your hands, they have not officially been laid to rest yet. And so they're kind of like in a, a waiting period, like their soul is at this time.So, yeah. Have you ever seen a spirit? Has anyone spoken to you? Adrienne: Yeah. So not every funeral director would they not, they don't all [00:28:00] believe in paranormal activity, so I've seen some shit though. So yeah, no, I've seen a, I've seen a couple of my favorite one, I was standing in the prep room. I know I was ironing a flag or something, I don't know.And I look over and there was a corkboard on the wall. And two pieces of paper, not on one, not on one tack, on two separate tacks, two pieces of paper out of nowhere, flew vertically and then fell down. And so it wasn't like a loose tack and then gingerly, you know, lifted down to the floor. No, this, well, I flew across the room and all I could do is say hello.I acknowledge that something is here and I hope that you're doing okay, and I'm just gonna do what I'm doing, and that's great. So but I, yeah, no I, I've, most of the places that I've worked, most of the people acknowledge at least a [00:29:00] little bit of funny business, you know at the first place, the place where I I, I did my apprenticeship, had a name, I forgot what they named.It was like Bessie or something, but like, it was so frequent that, that certain things would happen to. Clocks in the room and this and that and that they named her. So, or him, I don't know. I didn't ask the gender, but and I have actually, I've heard things before, which is a little off-putting. So, but you know, a lot of these funeral homes, they're very, very old buildings.So, and if they've been funeral homes for that long, then yeah, it's, it's not really De'Vannon: surprising. When you say you heard things, is it like a, a rattling noise, an auditory voice, Adrienne: or, I've heard auditory voices. I've heard my name when I was verifiably the only person on the floor or in the building to the extent that I [00:30:00] got up from what I was doing and kind of walked around like, hello, who's there?You know what I mean? So that's happened a couple of times. So, but not every place, surprisingly. So the place that I'm currently working out of I haven't really, I haven't really encountered anything. And even though I probably work with more of the, more, more of the kind of spooky oriented people in the field at my current location, it's not, no one's ever mentioned anything at this particular place.So that's, it's not, it's not just the funeral homes. I think it has, there's, there's more to it than that, at least. What am I to say? I De'Vannon: would say some, I would say such, you know, funeral homes and places that are like a congregation of the dead would prove to be some sort of a nexus point, you know? Yeah, no, Adrienne: and it's, different cultures have different ideas of it too.So in I just did a Cambodian Buddhist [00:31:00] funeral and that is a part of it. So there's a big part of it is the, the monks. Come and they do this beautiful chanting, and the idea is that they're chanting instructions at the spirit of the deceased to kind of talk them through what their next steps are.Like hang a left at the, at the star, you know what I mean? Or whatever it is. So, but they're, they're actually trying to help guide spirits that may may not know how to proceed forward. So, but, and, and I al I also have heard of funeral homes as kind of being a transition point. So I've heard a couple of, of good ghost stories wherein they invited whatever entity was bothering them at their own home.And they went and they were just like, come on buddy. And they went to a funeral home and kind of like an elevator to the sky kind of a thing. Like it's a, it's a place of transition, but also though it's the place of the place where the death actually happens, [00:32:00] and then the place where the bodies ultimately go.So, you know, graveyards and, and that kind of thing. De'Vannon: And I would imagine the, the newly dead or practicing becoming dead and, you know, and getting used to those new abilities and everything like that. And you're their perfect little Guinea pig. I call out your name too. If I'm, if I, if you're like working on my body, need no one else to talk to you, Adrian's here.Well, Adrienne: and that's, it's, you know, and there are some people that kind of lean into that. And so I've known people that go so far as to try to find out the deceased person's musical tastes. And so rather than playing what I wanna hear when I have them in the prep room, or if I'm driving them to the cemetery, that you'd play a little Johnny Cash or whatever it is that they were into, to, you know, let 'em, let 'em feel a little at home at least for their, their last little time.De'Vannon: Okay, now play me some Beyonce or [00:33:00] Madonna. Girl. Go ahead. On and tw while you are working on me. So do you, do you ever have any dreams that are related to your job or anything Adrienne: like that? Not like I used to when I was a waitress. I've had waitressing dreams where I'm, you know, pour coffee in the middle of the night or anything like that.So, no, actually, I guess thankfully, no, not too much. I'm pretty good at kind of shaking it off. Yeah, having and uh, separating. De'Vannon: Separating it com. Compartmentalizing Adrienne: com compart, I'm so great at it, you know what I mean? I had a difficult childhood, so it's one of my life skills. De'Vannon: I've worked in the service industry and I, I, and I still do I I would agree.Waiting tables is way more horrific probably than you. It is the dead body. At least the bitch can't talk back like the motherfucker Karens and shit. Adrienne: Oh, you'd be surprised. We get some, Karens, we get some, and rightfully so, you know what I mean? Like, and I don't, not to poke fun at families, but there are [00:34:00] families that behave.They, you know, I'd say misbehave not because of grief, but because of an inflated sense of entitlement. So I, we get those two, but yeah, not, not as traumatizing, I don't think is in the restaurant world, to my recollection. De'Vannon: What the fuck could Karen come into her funeral home? But like, what, what could she demand that Is she, is she asking for free shit?She reduced to shit what the Adrienne: person Sometimes, sometimes it is. I want to come. So, you know, cause if you Google a funeral home, they're gonna say 24 hours. And what that means is that if a death occurs at three o'clock in the morning, we will dutifully respond to you and bring your loved one into our care regardless of the hour.That does not mean that you can follow, you know, the van back to the funeral home to make arrangements at three o'clock in the morning. So there are people that, that try to, you know, just show up whenever, or demand to make [00:35:00] arrangements outside of our normal operating hours. Or they'll, d i we, I had recently had a family that was gobsmack that a Catholic priest wouldn't have a, a funeral mass on a Sunday.They don't do that. Okay. They don't do that for archbishops. They don't, that's not that, that's just not a normal practice. And just, you know, the, oh, my, my word. How could you not? You know what I mean? So, and, or scheduling services before ever talking to the funeral home and then being surprised that, you know, Oh, I scheduled this mask to happen two days from now.What do you mean you can't, what do you mean you have three other services that day or, you know, so that, that kind of stuff. And so partially more often than not, it's people not knowing they haven't made arrangements before. So they don't know. They think, you know, maybe they just have a wrong idea, but sometimes it is just straight up entitlement, so.De'Vannon: Hmm. So do you see like a psychiatrist or do you, are you kind of meditating? Do you do yoga? How do you, how do you keep yourself mentally and emotionally in check? [00:36:00]Adrienne: I am very purposeful about my time away from work, so there is a tendency I'm tempted to say, especially with the ladies. I've seen it, I think a, a little more frequently with my female colleagues than with my male of being, I don't know, I don't wanna say overinvested, but like, Unable to check out on days off, like micro not micromanaging or being involved in things instead of just trusting and passing it off to your colleagues on your off days.Cuz that's, you know, you can try as we might, we try to minimize any kind of duties, you know what I mean? If, if a if a brand new family comes in and needs services on my day 10, I'm most likely not gonna be the director that sits with him to make arrangements because I am almost assuredly going to be out, you know, a as those arrangements need to be made.So some funeral directors have trouble setting those boundaries between being at work and being available. [00:37:00] You know, so I'm pretty good about that. Setting boundaries. So on my off times, I'm off for the most part. So that's a big part of it. I am, I have a very supportive partner. Who, so I have some mutual accountability in my household, which helps.So if I have had a particularly nasty day and I wasn't able to kind of shake it off on my way home, you know, on my commute or something like that, that I have I, I have, you know, my husband that can kind of since that and give me an opportunity to talk about something if I need to, if I'm struggling with some, you know, some, and it's, I think as a surprise to you, it has less to do with any kind of the grossness of my job, more so than it does about the emo emotional turmoil that, that we deal with.You know, it's hard. I, I'm very empathetic and so it's difficult to [00:38:00] see people suffer and then have to just, you know I dunno, it, it's hard to see people suffer and not have a way to help them. And so in, in one sense of it, I think it's easier for me because instead of just seeing suffering and just being like, oh, I wish I knew what I could do, I actually do know what to do in some circumstances.And so it's not just passively seeing suffering happen. I see the same suffering that everyone else does, but I can actually step up and I can help out and I can hopefully bring a little bit of peace to some people, and that is rewarding in and of itself. So I think that kind of feeds pour into my cup, as it were.That's a, a metaphor we hear a lot is you can't pour from an empty cup. So I, I try to focus on ways to pour back into my cup and so thank you notes. I, if I, if I'm really down or if I'm really exhausted, I have my thank you notes for [00:39:00] my families and that means the world to me and that is just a reminder of why, you know, why I'm doing what I do.And that helps too. So and then also mood altering substances. So, and Bravo personally helps me a lot. So, De'Vannon: well, this is the sex, drugs and Jesus podcast. So put on the drugs right now, drugs, man. And everything's a fucking drug. Fucking coffee. The fucking drug. Yeah. So I, I heard you and you said you can't pour from an empty cup.I've heard it said before in another way where it says you can't give away what you don't have. Yeah. And so whatever is, you can't, if you nothing in the cup, you can't pour a shit out, but you also can't create things that are not there. So, like you said, you're empathetic, but you have em empathy to give.So that's very, very, very highly high, high vibrational of you. I heard you say that you had a [00:40:00] traumatic childhood. What, what happened? Well, Adrienne: not traumatic, but, you know, my parents were divorced. My dad wasn't around a whole lot. You know, we were, you know, mom writing hot check for groceries, stuff like that.So, And I've, I've also looked like a 34 year old woman since I was about eight. So I was like five 11 I think by the time I was in the fourth grade. So just, just a weird, awkward a childhood lacking of privilege, I'll put it that way. So not too mad. I know there's a lot of people who've had it worse, so De'Vannon: we've come to a point in this fucked up ass country where the things that you just said, Or just as common as rain.Yeah, absolutely. But that shit's fucked up. It's not supposed to be that way. Yeah. That, that's still quite dramatic. We're this, this, this country has got so used to trauma, but I guess that's true. You know, from shootings in schools and every, wherever, every fucking day or a couple times a day to [00:41:00] this, this is like, oh, well dude, this is what we do.We get divorced and we shoot people. How are you? Right, right. Yeah. Whatever. I'm getting me a fucking Mexico citizenship. Yeah. Adrienne: I, I, yeah. Well, take me with you. I don't know where we're going, but it sounds great. De'Vannon: So what about your to, to the gaze, obviously to the gaze. I really, really like the way the cartel runs their state.Yeah. Down there there's nothing but peace in the streets. And people just don't, there's you, don't you? There's no violence, there's no fentanyl in the damn narcotics that you don't have that foolishness in Mexico. Why the fuck can the cartel run a country better than politicians? Adrienne: That's a really good question.That's a really good De'Vannon: question. Because they don't lie. I mean, they don't have an agenda. If you fuck up, you like die or you just gonna be dealt with. And it's just, it is what it is. It is what it's exactly. [00:42:00]And so that's my love going out to all my helico people down there. Have you ever seen anybody in your profession who just could not deal?I'm talking about somebody who had made it through school and was already. In the profession, and then something happened and they were just like, I can't even, Adrienne: yeah. And I've seen people that were almost a good fit, but then in some very important ways discovered that they were not. So I think I think the pandemic was an incredibly difficult time for this pro profession.And I think that if you made it through that, then you probably are made of, of, of the tough stuff and, and you're gonna make it through throughout your career. But yeah, it's high pressure. It is incredibly it's incredibly difficult and a lot of times it's thankless and a lot of times it's back to back to back to back.And, and [00:43:00] that can be difficult if you don't kind of so you know, at a lot of firms, when you have a properly functioning team, you can kind of support one another. So for instance, if a funeral director has a death in the family, A lot of times it's a little hard to deal with other people's families when you're actively dealing with your own grief.You know? So in those kind of cases, a director might step back from the front of the house stuff and just do prep room kind of stuff. So, or I'm, I'm particularly skilled with more tragic kind of cases, or maybe not skilled, but I'm, I'm more willing to, you know, put me in there, coach for a lot, a lot of the more difficult cases that some, some folks shy away from.But I can't do those kind of cases back to back to back, so I might have to No, continue. I, I saw your quizzical eyebrows and so I'm, I'm waiting for your, for your De'Vannon: question. Um, What, can you give me an example of what a difficult case would [00:44:00] be versus a non difficult case? Adrienne: Well, you know, we're all gonna die and I think when you know, when grandma dies after three months of hospice care and everybody got to fly in and.See her and hold her hand. And you know, you have that time to at least intellectually prepare for a death or if it's a death, that's kind of an in order death. Those, I don't wanna say they're easy. I mean, you, the person who's burying their mom, it's gonna be difficult for them regardless. But those kind of deaths that are expected and kind of feel more natural versus you know a two year old who was shot or a 13 year old who hung himself or a murder, suicide or just the tragic kind of circumstances because the care that the families need or, or, or when there's a death in kids are there.So not, not physically present with the death, but I mean, like when someone, when a child loses a parent, something like [00:45:00] that, or a child loses a sibling, those kind of cases are. Just a lot more complex in what the families need from the funeral director. And so there's just more coming out of the cup as it were, you know than with some, some deaths that are natural.I don't know if natural is the right word, but I think you get my meaning. De'Vannon: Right. What's your what's your most gut wrenching memory? Like something that when you think about it, it justAdrienne: I had a couple of of, of tough cases. I had one, the last place I was working in Louisiana was during Covid. And one lady, God bless her, she lost six family members inside of six months. They weren't all covid but. Yeah, she, she basically lost everyone that she loved. And so like the, the, like the, the [00:46:00] fifth or sixth time when I answered the phone, hi Peter, this is Adrian.And I heard her voice. I literally was like, are you hitting me? I never wanted to talk to you again. And it made her just have a belly laugh. So I'm glad that you know, that I was the one to help her through that. But that was difficult. I mean, I had one where, ah, a kid killed himself. Poor dumb kid, you know?And I had to pooch his Boy Scout truth were the Paul bearers. And so trying to talk that Boy Scout, you know, these kids through what is certainly a foundational moment in their lives, you know, it's the first time they've lost anyone and it's a peer. And they're at this like hugely well attended funeral service and all eyes on, and they, and it's the first time they're having to step into that role.And so having to give them kind of the. Giving them the pep talk and, and you know, the eyebrow nods and the getting 'em through it. That part of that, that, that one [00:47:00] stuck with me. That was a, that was a difficult one. So there's a lot. I mean, it's really, I think part of the beauty of this job, as draining as it can be, is I get to see some of the most beautiful human moments that are, you know, I had one time I we were about to put the urn into the niche, into the, you know, the wall of the mausoleum and I don't know, I think he was like eight and it was his grandfather, but they were very, very close and it was a very tough loss for him and Right.You know, right at the end, this little kid, you know, I'm like, you know, ladies and gentlemen, this is concludes our services and blah, blah, blah. And this kid just gets up and he goes and he lays on the table and he hugs the irm. You know, and it was just this incredibly beautiful, poignant display, you know?[00:48:00] And as hard as that was to kind of navigate, I what an honor it is to just see that and, and to be able to help that kid process that, De'Vannon: thank God for the silver lining in these dark ass rain clouds. Now you've mentioned the pandemic a couple of times, and you know, when we were in the thick of it all over tv, you know, you saw like the the nurses, doctors, frontline workers, morticians or caregivers as well.So was there a lot of burnout? And is, is there anything you'd like the world, the world to know about your a how the covid effected y'all since it really didn't get a lot of media coverage? Well, Adrienne: it didn't, and I guess thanks for noticing that it didn't, so, because it, it did mean, not necessarily personally, but I've got some colleagues that were working in New York City at the height of the game.Oh lord gee. Yeah, I mean, and so when New York had, its like a heroes parade kind of [00:49:00] a thing, initially funeral directors were not included. And yeah, that was felt, that was felt by people, you know, because, you know just little old me in New Orleans, not New York, so we didn't have those kind of numbers.It was a hotspot city. It was bad. Wasn't that bad. But yeah, I mean, I know how many hours I was working a day and how many days, days on end that I quarantined myself from my family because I didn't want to bring home those germs. And so, you know, I was spending spending, you know, a week at a time.Away from them. So it's difficult not just because of the long hours and the hard work, but being separated from the emotional support of our families, you know, to keep them safe. That's incredibly difficult. And then to have everyone from, rightfully so, but everyone from, you know, the, the worker who shows up at Walgreens [00:50:00] and nurses and Uber drivers, rightfully so thanked and appreciated for showing up and for getting out there and for exposing themselves to risk so that they could serve their community in whatever the way that they do.But then not to have, not to have funeral directors included, kind of smarted a bit. So, but they did, I know at least with the, the first big one, the New York Heroes Parade or whatever, they did add funeral directors, but it was an afterthought, you know? But, but, and honestly, I think it's just kind of depressing.I think I, I don't think it was like an intentional slight like, ah, Stupid morticians. Nobody cares about this. It wasn't that, but it was, you know, how do we keep this hero's parade upbeat and like high five nurses, good job doctors, and great job, bringers of the Dead. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, it's, it's to acknowledge a mortician is to acknowledge death.And I think, you know, at certain points it just, it gets a little sticky. [00:51:00] But yeah. De'Vannon: Well, I, I, I love morticians and from my ww f Fandom Wrestling Days, you know the Pa Paul? Oh yeah. The Undertaker, the under the Paul Burrows, one of my fa everyone's fucking favorite character. He's coming there with that be toning his theme music and shit.That bitch was boss, so Yeah. I, I fucks with y'all. I fucks with it. Adrienne: We're fun at parties. I'll tell you what. So that's, that was my joke is you know, I'm my, I have a degree in religion. I was very politically active back in, back in my day, and I'm a mortician, so, you know, I'm fun at dinner parties.Right. So I, I bring all the good hot topics. De'Vannon: What, what kind of reactions do you get from people when, when you tell them what you do? Dinner parties or wherever? Adrienne: I've gotten some, I've gotten, so I lived, I was in Miami when I first started funeral school. I lived in Miami. And I was the, one of the two little [00:52:00] moments of my life where I was kind of a stay-at-home mom.So my daughter was started school in Miami. It's her first time at this school. And so I was doing like, you know, p t a kind of crap and selling pencils and doing whatever. And I had this like p t a buddy lady I don't remember her name or anything, but anytime we had a little activity, she was my buddy and we'd, you know, hang out.And then in talking, when I said that I was gonna start funeral school, She never made eye contact with me again. So for some people there's a really serious kind of taboo about it and people like literally avert their eyes sometimes. So that's kind of interesting. But for the most part people are just, I, I think either shocked because you don't meet many morticians and or shocked because I'm a lady mortician.And so I think it's, that's surprising to them too. And so a lot of times they kind of assume that I'm just, just a funeral director, [00:53:00] not to minimize people that are solely funeral directors, but they assume that I'm just a funeral director and that of course, I'm not an embalmer. No. You know, so that's interesting seeing people's reaction in that way, but for the most part, people are just curious.And I have gotten some very interesting questions from people, you know. De'Vannon: Y'all running from the mortician or averting your eyes, like what Adrian is saying is not gonna help you to cheat death. Adrienne: It's true. It's like they think I'm jinxing them. Yeah. So De'Vannon: We better get a grip on ourselves and get, and get with the program.You know, like, like when King David from the, from the, from the Bible got ready to die, he said, you know, I go the way of all the earth. Mm-hmm. You know, if you wanna believe you're coming back as a butterfly or a stingray or whatever, okay, that's on you. But either way, you gotta die before you can be reincarnated if that's what you believe is going to happen.So you cannot run from death. And the, the thing [00:54:00] that intrigues me the most, or intrigues me or extends out to me the most about death is something that my my spiritual mother evangelist Nelson would tell me when she was a alive. And, you know, she was like, it is no old people don't die as much as young people.You know? And I thought about it, I was like, I've been to a lot of funerals in my life, but maybe five of those were old people. Most of them have been people like in between like 20 and 40. Wow. You know, so, so no, we, we, we, we, we won't be running from death and don't be, don't be stupid and think just because you're young that you're guaranteed to live to get old.So get a grip on it. Get your spiritual life in order, because eventually you will be laying down on a table in front of Adrian someone. Well, yeah, Adrienne: and it's, and it's, I, some, I, I don't know. I guess I have my personal belief [00:55:00]system. I e everything's gonna be okay. It's either nothing or. Everything's fine.You know what I mean? I, I believe in a benevolence underneath underlying the universe. And so I'm not afraid of whatever's in the next room, so to speak. You know what I mean? But there are people that are just, that are deeply, deeply fearful of it. And it's sad. It just, and, and so you're right. So the kind of reaction is not to kind of process and reflect on that, but rather to completely avoid it.And, but that's not how this works, you know? Avoiding it, pretending it doesn't exist. It doesn't help. De'Vannon: Yeah. You don't want everything about how you live in this life affects your afterlife. The, the dead people I know, they still speak to me like in dreams and stuff like that. That's why I don't believe in reincarnation, because they are still spirits.So they couldn't be a giraffe and still hear in spirit talking to me. And so [00:56:00] you don't wanna part this plane of existence like. Like in any kind of like spliced way. Like you don't wanna like be feeling like you're being ripped. You need to be, you need to be at a point where you're ready to let it go because you don't want Absolutely.You don't wanna wrecked afterlife one thing that taught me this when I was in middle sch in high school now as a teenager, and I woke up dying in the middle of the night. I had like a strange heart rhythm. You know, it happens in teens sometimes. Yeah. It just does. And I woke up and I couldn't breathe.Like, I couldn't catch my breath. I'm not asthmatic it, I've never have been. It wasn't that, it wasn't an episode, it was like, and as this was happening in this dream state or whatever, I was in, it's like I was looking down this tunnel at the reception hall at the church that I was attending, but it was like, it was the, the person that I saw was someone who was dead already, and I [00:57:00] didn't recognize the other people.So it was almost like it was a flipped. A version of a reality and it almost looked like the dead people were still doing the same stuff that they used to do when they were alive. And as my breath was escaping me, it's like I saw them and I remember just really, really, really wanting more time. Cause I was like, somewhere between 15 and 16, you know, I was like, you know, I really wanted more time and I just could not breathe.I couldn't force myself to breathe. The air was just leaving and none was coming back in. And I just like passed out or whatever. And then I woke up, you know, the Lord wasn't ready for me to die. But what I remembered is that I wasn't ready to go. And I hated that sense of not being prepared. Adrienne: Well, no, and that's back in the old days, people used to carry like little do dads and jewelry pieces that would say, memento mori, remember you must die.You know, it's, it's the fact that we know that this is a [00:58:00] terminable date. That this life is not forever makes us value what we have right now. And I think that when you have that kind of experience, that it really, it makes you confront and be purposeful about, about where you are now because you have that undeniable experience of knowing that it's not forever.You know?De'Vannon: And I know, I know we're slightly over time. Can, can you gimme another Oh, I don't care. I'll talk to Adrienne: you all night. I'm fine. I ain't doing shit De'Vannon: today. Thank you. I appreciate it. There's a, there's a couple of more points that I really, really, really, really, really a need to make. Let's talk about life insurance for a second here.Okay. But my aunt kicked the bucket a couple of years ago. This shit, okay? She was one of those ones who liked to go spend a per check at the riverboat casino. Every, every month. I'm not judging her for that. We had plenty of good times at Casino. She was also one of those ones who [00:59:00] believed that the rapture would happen and that, that she therefore did not need life insurance.Well, she died and she didn't have any life insurance, and then she didn't have any savings because it was all up at the casino. Because she was always gonna strike it rich. Okay? On average, at least down here in Louisiana, I don't know what it is, everywhere else, you're looking at about 10 ish grand.Okay. To, to put a bitch in the ground if they're not a veteran, a beast, you know? So if you die and you don't have no money, then that burden then falls to your loved ones to either, I guess, just discard you and leave you in the morgue. Down here you'll see people having car washes and bake sales and shit, trying to hustle money to pay for a funeral.And these are not necessarily like, I mean, my mean, my aunt was like an older person. I think she was in like her sixties, seventies. Okay. Right, right. Like a 15 year old kid who just happened to, you know. Yeah. It's not a surprise Adrienne: that you know, [01:00:00] that you might die someday days or relatively soon, you know?Yeah, no, it happens. It happens all the time. And different, different places. So what's the question? So what do you do? Like, De'Vannon: I'm, I'm stressing the fact that this sort of thing can tear families down in a Oh, absolutely. Because my, a sibling that I no longer talked to attacked me because in their opinion, all three of a siblings were supposed to come up with like $2,500 or something like that.I told my mom to burn her sister up and cremate her. You don't have no money, you don't have no options. But my, but my mom didn't wanna do that, and so I was like, okay. Then I will figure out what I'm gonna donate and then we'll just do the funeral. But I'm giving you the side eye cuz I don't agree, but I'm still gonna help you, my mother.But the sibling of mine decided that they were going to come up with the money. [01:01:00] This person's always been controlling and I think probably a little narcissistic too, if not much. And so they decided to insult me and call me like entitled and everything. Cuz I said, I'm not paying 2,500 or 2,800.Let me see what I could come up with. And then they went and drudged up, you know, over, you know, years ago when I was homeless in Houston, when I got h i right and, you know, hepatitis and all of that. And were saying like, you owe this to our parents and they helped you and everything like that. I was like, no, no, they're not doing that now.It's not the time for you to bring up my history and then use it as a weapon to demonize me because you cannot control me. But. Her not having life insurance is what made the breeding ground for this. Now, this sibling of mine should have been come to me if they had some beef about what I went through.Right, right. Adrienne: And not, not wait for this terrible loss in your family to then also bring that up. How ridiculous is that? But it happens all the time. And I [01:02:00] think it's because it's, it's easier to fight with your siblings than it is to grieve a loss a lot of times. So, but you're absolutely right. Not every state life insurance isn't part of pre-planning in every state, which I didn't really know.So in Louisiana, yeah, if you wanna pre-plan, most of the time you, you sit down, you figure out what services you want, how much they cost, and then you essentially buy a, a, a, a, an insurance policy to fund it. Not every state does that. So it would, Maine, they have mortuary trusts and you specifically cannot have you can't sell life insurance for the purposes of funerals.But the point, the point, the underlying point being, We're all going to die. And a lot of people kind of make some assumptions about what's gonna happen or what the contingencies are, and oh, don't worry about me, just donate me to science. That's not how that works. So in most places, you have to be on a donor registry 30 to 60 days before death, and you're still not [01:03:00] guaranteed for acceptance.If they're all filled up with, you know, 67 year old chubby white ladies that day, then your body's not gonna be donated and someone's gonna have to pay for your funeral. Now, some states you know, some places the coroner will step up or there there's indigent funding or something like that. Like the city will pay X amount of dollars for cremation and y amount of dollars for burial, that kind of stuff.So sometimes there are some kind of safeguards, but not all the time and not every municipality. So there were some parishes in Louisiana. If you had a living blood relation who had a penny to their name, you were not going to be paid for your, you know, indigent funeral stuff was not gonna come into play.The coroner was simply not gonna approve that. So it is wise to, on some level, have some kind of preparation, whether or not that's a life insurance policy, an [01:04:00] emergency savings fund, or something like that. I think to your point, too, expressing what it is that you want or would want or absolutely don't want.So at some point I never knew, but my mom, she was like, please don't cremate me. That idea horrifies me. Okay. Dooly noted. You know what I mean? So, funding not withstanding, I, I know what she wants to do. So there's not, because families, a lot of times there's, there's, there is contention about what to do and the fact that sometimes families are limited by what, what funds they have available, you know, so yeah, aside from pre-planning, just giving yourself and your family members the grace to, you know, maybe grandma would've wanted a, you know, a copper basket and a most beautiful spot in the cemetery, but if you've only, you're only able to muster a couple of thousand dollars, then that's not gonna happen.And so let's, let's give ourselves permission to just do [01:05:00] what needs to be done and, you know offer ourselves some grace and forgiveness and it not being what we wish we could do, you know? But yeah, family, family, family's fighting all, all the time. Not just about financial stuff, but it, it becomes, I, I literally had one time, two sisters, dad died, his two sisters left, and at some point, the arrangement conference, I don't know what made her mad, but she looked over at her sister and she said, I don't even know why you're here making these arrangements.Daddy never even loved you. So, okay, let's take a step back ladies. Let's maybe take a deep breath and acknowledge that we're going through some difficult things right now, and maybe not try to rectify the entire history of your difficult sibling relationship right now. You know what I mean? So yeah, yeah.We, we see that girl. De'Vannon: Y'all get life [01:06:00] insurance. I don'

INTRODUCTION: Lluvia Peveto, 37, is a native Texan, former journalist and currently a marketing and public relations specialist. She is a senior account manager for a Baton Rouge-based creative agency, where she offers proactive counsel for the agency's client roster. Lluvia has worked extensively in both corporate and nonprofit environments throughout her career, earning hundreds of thousands of dollars in sponsorships, membership commitments, and local and state grants. Her copywriting work has received numerous local awards in Louisiana and Texas garnering international media recognition for her diverse clients.  Lluvia enjoys openly relating her experiences as a bisexual and polyamorous woman, and has practiced polyamory for over three years. She is an advocate for living openly without fear and enjoys expanding her experiences and knowledge of ethical nonmonogamy. In her spare time, she enjoys riding her motorcycle, running, updating her Kindle reads list and connecting with friends.    INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      A Glimpse Into The Polyamorous Life·      Open Relationships Vs. Polyamory ·      The Importance Of Alone Time·      The Necessity Of Therapy ·      Hierarchy Vs. Non-Hierarchy ·      Expressing What You Really Want·      Dating App Options·      Coming Out Poly·      Mental Health Cost Cutting Hacks·      Code Switching  CONNECT WITH LLUVIA: TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tacobellissimaInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/tacobellissima/?hl=en  LLUVIA'S RECOMMENDATIONS: Recommended Resources:●    https://www.audible.com/pd?asin=1952125081&source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=pdp●    https://www.audible.com/pd?asin=B09X2828PD&source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=pdp●    https://www.audible.com/pd?asin=B005P1FP7W&source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=pdp●    https://www.audible.com/pd?asin=1952125030&source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=pdp Blogs:●    https://www.polyphilia.blog●    https://youtube.com/@polyamfam●    https://www.chillpolyamory.com/about Social Media:●    https://instagram.com/polyamoryinpractice?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=●    https://instagram.com/polyphiliablog?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=●    https://instagram.com/polyamproud?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=●    https://instagram.com/nonmonogamyhelp?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=●    https://instagram.com/chillpolyamory?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=●    https://instagram.com/remodeledlove?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=●    https://instagram.com/polyamorousblackgirl?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=●    https://instagram.com/polyamfam?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=   CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com   DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Lluvia Polyamory[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello, all my children out there. Hope everyone is feeling super fabulous as we get ready to get into yet another episode. Today I'm talking with a dear friend of mine who I've known for years and years and years. Her name is Lluvia Peveto, and she is someone who is all about that polyamorous life, y'all. She has lived it. She has learned from it. She has grown from it, and she is here to share [00:01:00] some of her delicious delectable tips with you, baby. Now in this episode, we're gonna be talking about everything polyamory. We're gonna talk about polyamory versus open relationships and being ahoe.Yes, darling. They're not the same. Take a listen to this episode and please share it with somebody who could use a little bit of love. Hello, are you wonderful souls out there? And welcome to the Sex drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Devana and I am here with my homegirl, the lovely and talented Ms. Uzel, also known as TacoHello. Hello. Now, don't usually read from people's bios and stuff like that. I usually have some slick ass shit to say or whatever the case may be, but your bio is so well written. [00:02:00] I'm actually going to read just like a, a snip letter or two of it since you did such a damn good job on it. Now this bitch here is 37 very young years.I know she looks 12. I carded. And everything to be sure that she was of age on this show, she is stuck in time in the best way. She is a native Texan, a former journalist, and currently a marketing and public relations specialist. Apart from all this, she enjoys openly relating her experiences as a bisexual and polyamorous woman and she has practiced polyamory for over three years.How are you doing today? Lluvia: I'm doing lovely. Thank you so much for inviting me on your show. I'm excited. De'Vannon: Hell fucks. Yeah. So how did this all come about? So, you know, I've been going through relationship changes and, and shit like that, and I was trolling TikTok the other week and I saw U on there giving this whole like read on polyamory and she was [00:03:00] like, you know what, not everybody's poly.And she was just trying to like conceptualize this and so, According to Healthline, about 45% of the US population is poly. And I was taken with your passion about it, and as I have been considering this lifestyle, and so I wanted to bring you on so we can have a conversation about polyamory, not necessarily from some like high level coach in the, in the, in the lifestyle, but just somebody who's going through it.And so how, how do you feel like being poly has benefited you? Lluvia: Well I feel like it's a long story because when I first started out being poly, I think I was kind of [00:04:00] in my hope phase, as we all do when we get out of long-term relationships. And you think. There's a lot more efficiency, and I just wanna see what there is out there for me.And I think I, at the, at that point in time was I was a little disillusioned with long-term monogamous relationships because I had previously been married and almost all of the relationships that I had were long-term, so lasting more than three years. So I think I went into it. I think, well, at first I didn't know what polyamory was.I, I knew what open was. I had never heard of ethical non monogamy at that point in time. I had engaged in previously open relationships, but they weren't very, they weren't born out of a place of education [00:05:00] for that kind of lifestyle. , it was just like, Hey, let's just be open. So I wasn't really familiar with it.And at the time I thought, well, it's better to be single and just date around and do whatever I want and not have to answer to anybody, and I'll focus on my friends and family and career. And then I met my nesting partner who kind of introduced me to the idea. And so from that point in time, I was like, well, you know, I am gonna educate myself about what this is and see if it's right for me before I make any decisions about whether or not this is something that I want to pursue.I think we all kind of fall into monogamy kind of naturally because it's a, it's, you know, something that [00:06:00] is very normal within our culture. . And to me,I was a little scared about it. I didn't know what polyamory meant or how it would affect me or, you know, who was involved. Is it just like cheating? You know? Is it, is it just like one big Sodom and Gamora? Because I was raised like in a, in a very like, religious background, so I didn't want to necessarily do Sodom and Gamora 24 7.I did, I was intrigued by some of the more physicality and the openness that you were able to do without like punishment, I guess. So I guess the, the first to answer your question very, like succinctly I liked it because there was a lot more to offer. I wasn't [00:07:00] restricted. necessarily from anything.It was a lot more open. On the journey to polyamory. I found out that there's a lot more involved than just sleeping with people. You have to think about the ethics and what are your boundaries and what past trauma will affect your life. And I think what I came away with over the three years of time that I've been polyamorous is how to truly communicate, how to express myself, how to identify what I need personally first and then be able to express it, right?How to face conflict how important therapy is, and how important it is to spend alone time. in addition to the, all of the other regular benefits that you get from it. So like hanging out with a lot of people, getting a [00:08:00] lot of emotional support and being able to, you know, just rely on people and have a bigger family than you originally thought you could.So all of those are benefits, but they come with responsibilities as well. De'Vannon: And with great power comes great responsibility. Little spider girl andSo you, you said nesting partner. What's the nesting partner? Lluvia: So in polyamory there's the certain structures and certain terminologies in which you can describe your relationships to other people. It's always good to really detail out what those definitions mean to you because they may not mean the same thing to other people.So even if you hear me say definitions like nesting partner. , it's, even if somebody else talks to you about it, you should always say, well, what does nesting partner mean to you? Because again, we all have [00:09:00] our own perceptions of terminologies. But in my case, my nesting partner is my long-term partner that I live with.So usually when somebody says nesting partner, they mean somebody that they live with. In some cases, some people can use nesting partner to mean main partner, but I practice non hierarchy which means that everybody is equal to me and everybody's needs are the same and legitimate. De'Vannon: Hmm. Non hierarchy.I I've never heard that, but I like it. You like all y'all the same. When I was a drug dealer, one of my fellow drug dealers, this cute little blonde boy in, in my memoir that I sent you, I referred him as golden boy in there and I believe in the book, his name is Hawkin. And so but in real life, this dude had like five different females that he was fucking, I don't believe they were [00:10:00] allowed to fucking anybody else, that he had them ranked number, like one through five, and number one had authority over two through four.So like, if number two through four came in with, I don't know, some fucking badass, you know, glasses on some frames or whatever, the number one, it just goes to natural fucking. Pr us off of her face. And then that would be thatLluvia: Yeah, that in my, in my structure would be described as toxic and also patriarchal. I would say. Of course, everybody has their own definitions of what works for them and what doesn't work for them. So there's a lot of actual couples who still practice hierarchy because, for instance if you live together, you're gonna have more privileges than, or take advantage of more privileges, for [00:11:00]instance, than somebody who's in solo poly, which means that they live by themselves or they practice polyamory more individual.So like if somebody who practices poly more individually doesn't have a partner and they live alone or something, they're not gonna get the benefits as some, as much of a couple living together and sharing responsibility. So there's still an innate sense of privilege that we all have when they're, when we're in relationships with somebody.Like somebody might spend more time with another partner because they live close by to you or, so there's still privilege, right? But the hierarchy means like, for instance, if I have two partners and I live with one, if they have a birthday party or if we have funds, time to tied together, like I'm gonna have to make decisions based on, you know, what the household need is or [00:12:00] something because I live with them if I don't live with another partner.and I'm trying to make sure that I prioritize them and that they're not in a hierarchal not affected by a hierarchy negatively. We have discussions about, you know, what is important to you? When do you want me to show up for things? Do you want me to show up for things? And make sure to put them first emotionally as well.So like, you're, you're not, you're trying to make sure that everybody has their needs met as much as they can. I would say. De'Vannon: And at the center of that, it's something that you mentioned earlier where you're saying like, you have to learn who, identify what you want and then be able to express what you want.One of the great sayings from within the spiritual circles is, who am I and what do I want, you know, that we must ask ourselves in order for this to work. Everybody's gotta [00:13:00] be clear on who the fuck they are. And what the fuck they want, because nobody should be having to play a guessing game. Like it's not going to work.But from my experience is I have asked many adults this sort of question, you know, in the course of, you know, my life. And more often than not, people cannot tell me exactly what they believe in who they are and what they want, you know? So did you find it was difficult to to either come to this point yourself, where you can clearly know yourself enough to know who you are and be able to express it?Have you had struggles getting this from people? Lluvia: Yes. It is all very hard. I'm not gonna lie. This lifestyle requires a lot of knowing yourself facing the darker sides of you and being honest about, you know, I don't know how to do this right now. And, but I'm still gonna [00:14:00] try. I've found that a lot of people, well, well, let's just talk about me first.I have found personally that it's very difficult to identify feelings and the root causes of feelings. So for instance, one of the main things that people ask me as a polyamorous person is, oh my gosh, I could never do that. Like, how don't, why don't you get jealous? And, yeah. You know, here's the thing.You are gonna get jealous and you are gonna get jealous sometimes. Just the same way that you get jealous as a monogamous person, because you're, you, you can't cut feelings out. You're, you're still a human being. You're surly to express your feelings or feel them. But when I experienced feelings of jealousy, I have to ask myself, where does this come from?Why am I jealous? , am I jealous because I feel [00:15:00] like I am not getting the same thing that somebody else is getting? Am I jealous because I think my partner is gonna leave me? Am I jealous because I want something, but I don't know how to express it? Do I have a boundary that I that I haven't expressed that I feel resentful even though I haven't towards my partner, even though I haven't expressed it?So I think you have to like really work through your feelings and identify why do I feel the way I feel? You can't just say, I just feel this way, which of course, you know, you will, you will just feel a certain way. But yeah, I feel like, I feel like that's been one of the major breakthroughs in polyamory is like really knowing yourself because you think you know yourself and then you get into something like this, which is a more complex.Relationship structure and then you're just blown away. [00:16:00] But how much you continue to learn about yourself and other people. De'Vannon: Right. And you mentioned also how this is different from like, just like being a hoe because some people might, I wanna dwell on that for a moment. And they're, look, we not here to shame honey.No, no, no. Out on a road more dick in this lifetime than what is what, what really one individual should be allowed to, you know, it's a good thing. My booty hole always goes back to being as taught as ever. And you know, then I go for my yearly AAL rejuvenation surgery anyway. And so , so. So I want, so I want you to talk about this because , you know, cause I, I had a partner in my life at one point who thought that anything that he did was sex positive.It didn't matter how many different people he slept with or whatever the case may be. As long as it wasn't rape then it was sex positive. And I just wanna, [00:17:00] you know, I want you to talk about what sex positivity is to you. And I want you to get a little bit more granular with the concept of just going on Grindr, whatever app the fuck around.Like that doesn't make you poly. You know, poly involves like giving a fuck about the people you're dealingLluvia: Yes. That is very, yes. Okay. So here's the thing.I feel like most people, unless you're asexual or have a low sex drive, at some point in time are gonna want to express themselves physically in a consistent way like we all, and that is to say that at some point in time we've all been hod or we continue to be hod. You know, I I find [00:18:00] that personally myself, like I, I go through cycles. For me, the reason why I went into Poly is not because I wanted to sleep around with a lot of people, cuz I could already do that without becoming poly. The idea that you are capable of vast amounts of love and are able to share that with people in different kinds of ways and they can share with you, and it doesn't have to all be the same like you are.Capable of designing your own relationships and meeting different needs with different people. One of the concepts that I really thought about in becoming poly wasthe idea that, can someone really give you everything that you need as one individual? So [00:19:00]like, let's say if you had your significant other, can they give you everything? Like, is that possible? And then you think about it and you think someone can't be everything to you. Like, this is why we have friends.This is why we have mentors. This is why we have, you know family. All of these people are important to us in different kinds of way, and they meet different needs. I believe that some people are naturally monogamous. , and I'm not trying to evangelize and trying to convert people over to the way of being poly cuz it's a lifestyle.It takes commitment, it takes responsibility. And so like, I wouldn't recommend this lifestyle to everybody. I personally enjoy it and I think a lot more people would, because I think a lot of people are not naturally monogamous. They just [00:20:00] don't know what options are available to them. But but yeah, like I, I think it's, I think polyamory is the ability to love multiple people and to be fed in different ways.And that doesn't mean necessarily sex. So there's a lot of asexual people and people who have significant relationships or emotional relationships with others that never delve into sex. Like for some people, Being in a polyamorous relationship means that you might live with one partner, you might sleep with another, and they don't provide you emotional support.They just provide you with physical support, right? Like cuddling or sex or whatever. And then there's, there might be somebody that you have a relationship with that's very emotionally significant where y'all don't ever sleep together. Like all of those [00:21:00] possibilities exist within the realm of poly and you don't.The beautiful thing is, is that all of those relationships don't have to look the same way. So you are able to have as many relationships as you want, as it you could properly care for and make your own needs up as long as that other person is being fed responsibly as well De'Vannon: too. Holy shit sticks, Batman.I never would've thought about . I never would've thought about that. You know, the whole, like, gosh, it's like, you know, just like an emotional relationship with somebody doesn't have anything physical to do with it. Wow.Lluvia: And you don't even have to spend, there's some people that like a lot of alone time. So your traditional relationships usually have you living with somebody spending a lot of time with them. But there are partners within polyamory that are called, [00:22:00] for instance, comment partners. And those are partners that aren't with you all the time.You may only see them what, maybe like twice a year, year, once a year. And that yet they're very, very significant, a very significant relationship in your life. And that can still be a partner. They're just not the traditional partner. So I think. Breaking. The first thing you have to do is break any ideas of what a relationship is supposed to look like and think what do, who am I and what do I actually need?And is there somebody who wants to meet that need? And how can we make this work forDe'Vannon: now this, now this comment partner who you might only see once or twice a year. Are you physically see them once or twice a year? Are you in communicating with them over you know, in some way being by phone or whatever, or Lluvia: [00:23:00] if you want to, cuz you're the one making the relationship. I actually have never had a comment partner, but it's it's not within with, it's not outside of the realm of possibility, right?It's still just like, who are you at this point in time and what do you need? And then everything else kind of falls into place. I. Reconstructing my ideas about re relationships look like and what I want has continuously evolved over my experience with Poly De'Vannon: Well Spoken now within the Poly community.You, you you say you consider yourself to be more of a connector rather than a coach, and I think the connector sounds like a badass movie, , you know, maybe the follow up to Columbiana or some shit like that. I'm still waiting for him to give us that, cuz that movie was totally kick ass and you [00:24:00] could have totally played Columbiana.And so, and so tell people what, you know, just about the existence of coaches in, in, in the poly world and what they could provide. Lluvia: So when I first started out, I didn't know anything. you know, as you do, and I went online and tried to find a lot of people that were very experienced in Poly that had blogs and that wrote books.And so I started following them and they provided there's a lot of information out there, just so you know as an aside, and you should always be careful and do your own reading yourself to compare what you know and which you are aligned with, with whoever you're following. Right? But I found several people, like there's an account on TikTok that's called Chill Polyamory, and they're also [00:25:00] on Instagram too.So like I follow them, they have a blog and everything, so I make sure to follow 'em because they have really good advice for people who follow non non-hierarchical poly and who are also within the kink community, which I think. , you'll often find that there's a lot of like other different like sub-communities linked to polyamory.Because a lot of alternative people like alternative rel relationships. And so you'll often find kink and sci-fi people and gamer people and d and d people, like all wrapped up within this major like polyamorous De'Vannon: ecosystem. Ooh, that sounds so hot and yummy. Or, you know, I love me, so love me a good nerd, baby.Yes. . Lluvia: I mean, you'll find them there if there's anything. I know it's that [00:26:00] I've found more people who are like me, who are like, I'll, I'll like swipe on them on Tinder and I'll be like, Hey, what's up? I love your shirt. I'm a big, you know star Trek person myself, and they'll be like, original. Or first genAnd then we'll get into, we'll get into talks about Star Trek and stuff and debate about which season was the best. And like that's how, that's one of the really good things that I love about polyamory is cuz when you date too, that person might not be from you. You might not sleep with them like once you swipe on them.But the great thing is about polyamory is that you're not just like, okay, next if, if you vibe with somebody but they're not for you, you oftentimes will stay friends. I've made more friends off of dating apps than I've actually made lovers because we just have a lot of the shit, same shared interests.[00:27:00]De'Vannon: See, and we're, and we're, this is a great segue into the apps and exactly how somebody can immerse themselves into finding poly people if they want to do this lifestyle. So, so what you say in home Girl is that the poly mindset isn't quite as deterministic as say, like the grinder mindset because, you know, you know, people go on Grindr and act like that.Just the fuck. And if, if you and I fucking, then they swipe and get the hell out, nobody leave a damn vote. Anything about you. and so, so, so, so let's talk to people who, who might be hearing what you're saying and like, Ooh, that monogamy shit didn't work. I can't keep my dick in my pants anyway. Maybe there's a way that I can actually have all the sex that I want and still be a respectable human being.Don't have to resort the cheating, chicon, lies, scandals, deception, none of those things. You can have all the ass you want and do it in such a way that you're not hurting people's [00:28:00] feelings. . So so I know one of the apps is Fe Life. Another one is field, F e e l B. So I know if you live in a huge ass city like Los Angeles and Miami or something like that in New York, cause it'll be easier to find groups.You got people who are gonna hear this, who live in, but fuck Egypt out in the damn country and shit like that. And so the apps really come in handy. . And so talk to us about, you know, the apps and, you know, they're a good way to start. Yeah. Lluvia: I, I actually do most of my looking for relationships on apps.I wouldn't be opposed to in-person stuff, but it's just so hard. Like, how do you walk up to somebody and say, hi, I think you're cute also, I'm bisexual and polyamorous, you wanna go out with me? And then they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. What does that mean? Even mean it's so weird. Like, so I can't, it's, you know [00:29:00] it's easier to do it on the apps.So I get on I'm most, I'm on all of the apps all of the time. I usually have my dating cycles where I get off of the apps. If I, if my energy is low and then I get on the apps again. So I'll just call it my dating cycles. But I'll be on Tinder, Bumble hinge Field. And there is like her I don't really use some as much as I use the others, like, cuz I find that some app formats are just easier to stay in the know or up to date with [00:30:00] versus I feel like some layouts are just not as easy as others.So like, for instance, her, I don't really get on that as much because I just don't like the layout as much. Like, I don't like the way that the app structure exists. I do like Tinder because it's very easy. But what I don't like about it is that it's a lot of people looking for unicorns. Which, you know, I'm bisexual, but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna be a unit unicorn.So I like, I do like Tinder because of its ease of use. I like Bumble because it's very female and friendly oriented. So like, there's not gonna be somebody acting off, Hey babes wanna get laid tonight. Like, I, you know, maybe I do wanna get laid, but I don't wanna get laid like that. So yeah, I'm more of a slow burn kind of [00:31:00] person now, or at least in the cycle of my life.So yeah, so I like Bumble cause it's very sweet. Hinge every now and then let's see, field, I am on field consistently. . Because I find that it's easier to find like-minded people upfront because it'll let you put your options out, like interested in, and then you can put whatever you can put, like friends picking flowers, B D S M, beating somebody mercilessly over a cupcake.You can know, you can, you put whatever your, whatever your likes and dislikes are. And a lot of people are very open about it. A lot of people put like, you know, I'm interested in I'm a rope bunny and I do this and I'm looking for couples, or I'm looking for only an individual person. So it allows a lot of like [00:32:00] tailoring and getting your message very clear about what you need and what you don't need as opposed to tender, right, where you just put like a small bio and maybe link your Instagram.So that's the difference is. , you know, you're able to really be very detailed about what you're looking for or what kind of physical exchange you're, you're looking for, which,because sometimes people are looking more for somebody to sleep with, and let's say you're in poly, but you want more of a person who meets to your physical needs, you're able to write that up right away. And then you're able to link with your partner's profile if you have a partner. So then the other person can like see who your partner is and check y'all out and just kinda like be very, it's very transparent, which is really good for people who practice poly.De'Vannon: I like how you said you take the apps and cycles. One of my [00:33:00] great frustrations with people in this day and time is that they're on their goddamn phones everywhere They go all the fucking time and they won't put the fuckers down. And then these apps have a way of like draining your energy and just pulling you in because you're always wondering who hit you up and who's, who's next, the next message.And then, then you get this twisted sense of validation coming from the fact that people are contacting you on there. And it's not really true love or anything, it's just potential. And so I like the fact that you, you go at it hard, but then you know how to turn the shit off when it's getting to be too much and it's becoming toxic.And I'm happy that you identify that, that go, that does come a point in time where you need to chill with the shed . So do you have any advice that people can put in terms of how they, any information they can put in their profiles to help them? Lluvia: Yeah, I would say. To be very transparent and [00:34:00] open and honest about who you are and what you're looking for.So, like in my bio on apps where it's not so usual to see polyamorous people, I'll put my name and so people can look me up because I want them to know that I'm not just some weird person who's gonna like hit their head over in an alley and leave them there for dead. Like, it's nice to know that you exist online and that people can trust you to a certain extent.So I put my name, I put that what I'm looking for, so like, Hey, this is Uve and I like to read books and I like to, you know, garden and ride my motorcycle, blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for somebody who. would like to hang out and go to the [00:35:00] farmer's market or, you know, hold hands or something like that.And I'll put that I practice non-hierarchical poly, that I'm open about my poly status. Cause I think that's important. Like, I've dated people who are both open and not open about being poly. And I think that that is I think a key point in your poly journey. You might not wanna come out right away.And I, I understand why like I myself didn't come out right away to family or friends. But then I did it kind of like little by little. Like I came out first to my siblings and then I came out first to my friends, and then I came out to my. Work. And then I came out to my parents directly because even though it was all on social media and stuff, they don't pay [00:36:00] attention.So like I came out in doses as being polyamorous until I was out completely like public. And surprisingly everybody was super supportive. People within the business community, a lot of friends, people, church people sometimes from Facebook, like people are very open and they're curious and not everybody's out to like get you and not everything is gonna hurt you.And I think we're all brought up to fear a lot and to fear being different. And I think that one of the main things that I took away is that it's okay to be yourself and it's okay to be open. It might just take a little bit of time to get there. So I think putting whether or not you're open practicing poly, I think is an important thing.[00:37:00]I don't know. I don't know how explicit people would wanna get about that. I think that's a personal choice. So I'm not gonna say, I think that that's something like they should talk, they should decide for themselves and talk about with their therapists about whether or not they wanna discuss that with people.But for me it just helps a lot to be, to say, I am open about poly. I'm not ashamed to show you to my friends. I'm not afraid to be seen out in public with you because I think that's important. I put that I have a nesting partner. I put how long I've been together with them, and I put what I'm expecting from a relationship.Like I wanna be in an actual loving relationship with somebody. And I would like. To share time, like time is one of the ways that I like to express myself.Hmm. De'Vannon: This is all sounded so great. [00:38:00] I'm curious, have you had any sort of like negative experience maybe someone you had to dismiss, cut ties with or anything like that? Lluvia: Yes. It is very complicated. Everything is not gonna be easy. You're, the more people you love, the more you expose yourself to heartache.I will say that because you're dealing with people and emotions and different needs, it's just the same as a monogamous relationship where you work through challenges together. And whether or not you want to do that, you know, is, is the key. I have broken up with two women in the past. within polyamory while I have my nesting partner.And it was hard, you know, I love them and [00:39:00] it, we just, just like anything else is like, if you're not right for somebody, even if you can sleep within it, and even if you do meet some of their needs, sometimes somebody just isn't right for you. And sometimes if they pass your boundaries and they have different boundaries and they don't want to change for that, or you don't wanna change, then you're not right for each other.Like even if, even if you, even if you can, not all things are beneficial to you. So I think that that was an interesting learning point for me is like, is this person, even if I can sleep with them, even if I do have fun, am I supposed to be with them? Even if this is. Something that's open to me, or is this negative to, is this negative to my life in some way?And I think just like everything else is, like if something is negative to you in your life and it consistently is negative, then you shouldn't have it in your life. [00:40:00] Like, however, if they're just like every other relationship, some benefits and some cons, are you willing to work through those cons? And is that person willing to work through your cons?And then it's just like a, a happy relationship where you continuously give and take, give and take in a, in a positive way. , De'Vannon: let me reiterate. UVI mentioned the, the T word therapist a couple of times there. We do encourage you all to get you some type of mental health tele, p v, you, single poly, a ho, whatever the fuck you might be, because, you know, sometimes we have traumas and we think we've dealt with 'em and we haven't really dealt with 'em, and we find ourselves reacting and overreacting or underreacting, you know, the people that we are in relationships with.You need somebody who's trained in the mind field, okay, to help you. Hypnotherapy neurolinguistic pro [00:41:00] programming, n o p, whatever. There's all kinds of things out there now, but you need to, you need help to search through yourself to be sure that you're your best possible self. Anything you care to say about therapists in particular Lluvia: therapists are lifesavers.Do not think that. . Oh my problems aren't big enough for therapy cuz I promised you they are . I think therapy is one of the best things that I've ever done for myself. And even if it seems like a lot of money sometimes I think it's an investment that's well worth having because you have somebody who's trained to help you and trained to support you as opposed to, you know, people in your life who might be giving you bad advice cause they might be enabling you or you might be in bar wrong, you know?So I think it's always important to have an unbiased viewpoint who is there to equip you with the resources that you De'Vannon: need. , [00:42:00] right. And so I'm not a fan of like venting for instance, you know, in my previous relationship, you know, you know, my boyfriend, he liked to go and vent to his friends and I would be like, but they can't give you no damn relationship advice.They don't have relationships of their own or anything like that. Well, I think, I think he just wanted to kind of like be heard. And I was like, well that's cute, but that doesn't solve the problem and that didn't help you. You know, any sort of like practical way to evolve to just keep talking about it.But to me that was just a transfer of negative energy from one person to another with a no resolution. So I'm not a big fan of venting. And I was also gonna say, you mentioned the cost. We can get creative with that. You know, we found down at Louisiana State University, the grad students working on their psych degrees, we were able to go be seen for couples therapy there and it was like 10 or 15 bucks each session.Absolutely. The hypnotherapy class school that I went to [00:43:00] out in California, the Hypnosis MO Motivation Institute, they have an intern program and you can see the interns for a fraction of the cost, you know, or for however much or less it is, as opposed to seeing a regular therapist. So I would look into the intern programs at different schools and things like that and see if they run a clinic or something like that.And I found the therapy to be just as good, if not better, coming from the grad students at lsu. Right. Lluvia: I think it's important to know what all of the resources are and get in touch with somebody. I don't think you should rule out. any type of service that would benefit you or your friends or your family.De'Vannon: And now we gotta get humble enough people to understand that there is no shame in going to see a mental health therapist. In the black community, and especially here in the south, there's a lot of stigma surrounding mental health services. You're not weak, you are more weak trying to [00:44:00] act like that you are more powerful than what you are as opposed to owning up to your humanity.And weaknesses. Your true weakness is, is is the delusion of strength that you don't really possess. Right. Lluvia: I think I think within minority families there's always a sense of shame or very commonly a sense of shame associated with mental health. I remember the first time that I told my parents that I was seeing a therapist consistently and taking medication.because I was, had genetic depression and generalized anxiety. And I remember saying like, this is something that is cyclical that affects my life significant significantly at certain periods of time to where I'm high functioning. But [00:45:00] there's gonna be certain peers in my life where, you know, I might not be able to get out of bed or I might not be able to go to work or, and I've learned how to combat that because of therapy.And I've learned how to regulate self-regulate my emotions when I am having a hard time. And I think I used to lean too much on people sometimes that were not equipped with that. Like I used to lean on my friends, which is great to lean on your friends, which is great. It's fine to vent. but not to the point where you like need physical help from a professional that they can't supply.Right. So I think that that was a significant moment in my life and I remember my telling my parents that and the first time they heard it, cause I was fairly young, I was, I think I was still in college at the time. The first time they heard it, they were like, why do you need to go to therapy for? [00:46:00]And cuz they had never gone to therapy and they just were like pick yourself up by your bootstraps kind of people.And I was like, because I have genetic depression and generalized anxiety and sometimes I can't function. And they said, that's just ridic, that's all in your head. And I'm like, exactly. , that's De'Vannon: all. Cause it's Lluvia: genetic. And then they started seeing how well I was responding to therapy. and like evading.I used to fight with them a lot and some of that just like got into being able to resolve the f some of the family issues. Cause you know, we all have a lot of them resolved some of the family issues that had caused our fighting and once they saw the benefits of me being less reactionary and being [00:47:00]proactive about mending some aspects of our relationship, they were like, that therapy is working out for you.And I'm like, yeah guys. Yeah, it's, I'm glad y'all noticed. De'Vannon: Cool. Hell yeah. Well, I'm having, you're able to find a sense of peace and resolution within your family. I look at my mental health therapist. I have a hypnotherapist, I have a licensed clinical social worker, you know, and I just, okay. I have a bitch who does my nails, have a bitch who does my facials on crying, and I have a bitch who helps me with the psychia.It is just another one of my luxurious treatments that I'm pampering myself with. The way I see it, it is just, you know, you got a gardener, a cook, a therapist, honey, they're all people who come to give you a personal service. So I just think it's luxe. Absolutely. So you mentioned a word in our pre-talk that you were talking about and you called it code switching and, and we were talking , and I thought it was just the coolest fucking you know coining of the terms.And [00:48:00] I want you to talk to us about what code switching means to you and how it's beneficial in this situation. Ah.Lluvia: I, I I'm a person who travels in a lot of different circles. So right now we're discussing like my more alternative side, right? We're discussing like polyamory and alts and kink and stuff like that, which is a side of my life, like a part of my life. Then we have business, right? I, I'm a very front facing person.Like I work with a lot of clients, I work with teams. I'm in a leadership role. Like this is something that is very important to me as well. [00:49:00] There are people who. identify themselves a certain way, but I feel like I'm more of a chameleon. Like I like to travel in a lot of different circles and I like to engage with a lot of different people.And I like to express myself physically in different ways. So like, that means like dressing like a goth one day, dressing like a Barbie doll, the other dressing like a, a, you know, ice cold business queen. Like, I can, I can do that. And that's what I like, I like to do that. And that doesn't mean that everybody has to do that.It's just who I am. So one of the things that I do is I called it, call it code switching because I was brought up in a very poor way. Like we were poor. We didn't, sometimes we didn't have a lot to eat. We [00:50:00] were in an old house that was like infested and stuff like that. Like I remember like hearing rats, chewing at wallpaper when I was little in inside the walls of the house.Like I, so I know what it is to grow up and be poor, but I also know what it is to grow up and be an adult and be a leader and have money. So like I go between, I know what life is like in not having enough to eat and stuff like that. So like, this is what I call code switching. Sometimes it's like, on one hand I used to be poor and now I am comfortable on one hand I am Hispanic.On the other, I can travel within any circles, which is like white, black, Hispanic, min, other minority [00:51:00] cultures. Like I can travel within those and feel comfortable. I can. Be within the business world or I can be, you know, cutting up at a party. Like I can, I can be anyone and I can be anything and I'm very comfortable that way.So whenever you're in different social circles, you tend to code switch as to whatever the language there or appearance there will be best understood by the people that are within that social circle. So for instance, if I am in a meeting, I'm like gonna be like, what's up bitch? You look great. I love that.Look at, look girl, I love those shoes on. You really are fucking shoes girl. Yeah, absolutely. You are. You are working it, you are a dime. Like I'm not gonna go up in a meeting and say that to somebody, but I will say that to one of my best friends. . [00:52:00] If we're at a party, I'd be like, you are so hot. Punch me in the face right now.Like, I can be like that to her and nobody's gonna think anything. So like the way you engage with people, the way you present yourself differently amongst different social groups is often co called code switching. So I feel like I do that a lot too, because I enjoy being an educator and I enjoy having other people see me in a way that they can understand me.So like even if I present as alt sometimes, there's always an aspect of myself that is going to be safe, that is gonna feel safe to other people or other social. De'Vannon: And see, I never had enough class to act right at the meeting at work. That's why I had to stop trying to work for other people cuz I was the fool up in the board meeting.So I was like, oh bitch, nice tits. And whatever the case, I had no class, no demeanor and you know, so [00:53:00] I always got in trouble, whatever job I ever had. So I just stopped fucking working for people cuz I wasn't trying to tone it down. The sed, the sedentary over here only knew one way and that was turned all the way to, of course Lluvia: you are Sam, of courseBut like, here's the thing. Not everybody should do that. Not everybody needs to do that. I think the beauty of people is that they are, are who they are. You know, like I, one of the favorite things that I like to describe, like, I was trying to describe my si you two, my sister and I was like, well what is this Devana like?And I was like, listen, hilarious, spontaneous. The life of the party, like generous to a fault. Like these are all things that describe, that, describe him and I, you know, I'll, I describe people differently. It's just, it's, it's who you are. It's who people should love you De'Vannon: for. [00:54:00] Right. Well, thank you for those kind words.And I just wanna add that you can code switch and shift in as it, as it was explained to me by my mentor growing up. It's adjusting. You know, as you go out into the world now, you're doing this changing, but you're not being fake. You're not betraying who you are. It's understanding that when you go out into the world, it is your responsibility to make the world understand you.It is not the world's responsibility to just get on your level. You know, if you want people's attention, you want them to take you seriously. You have got to learn to read the, read the dynamics in the room. Read the culture in the room, read the energy in the room, and still be yourself and be true to yourself.But express yourself in the way that group A is gonna understand you. And group B is gonna understand you in group C all the way through Z and back around again. And just tweak yourself a little bit and not feel like, you know, not feel [00:55:00] like that that's a bad thing, that you gotta change a little bit when you're in front of different people, but figure out how to do that without abandoning who you are.Right? So I say this to like the introverted people out there, cuz this was an issue I had with my previous boyfriend, super introverted. And you know, he found trouble expressing himself in different situations or to me, you know? And I was like, well, you know, you gotta learn how to, you know, how to still be you, but be a little bit different and not be mad about it and embrace the diversity.And in the poly world, you know, you're gonna be dealing with a lot of different people and you're gonna have to be able to code switch and you know, , I would take it as a challenge. You know, if I was an introverted person, this is a way for you to grow and to get out there and to work on those people skills.Now on the time management side of it, what I was curious about spiritually speaking, and I know that people have varying degrees of spirituality. How do you find time to be poly and give all this attention to these people and [00:56:00] still spend, spend time with your higher power? Lluvia: That is a very good question.I have not always been very good at balancing that. But I am spiritual. I am still religious, so I am a Christian and I follow Buddhist philosophies. I also like to, I know this sounds like an oxymoron, but I also practice witchcraft and so I try to find time. To connect with all of this, like I try to find time to meditate.I try to find maybe like 10, 15 minutes to read a little bit to keep up my understanding of different philosophies and scriptures and stuff like that. I find that it is [00:57:00] very important to be true to myself and what I am drawn to and be outside more because everything that I do is connected to the internet.And so, like sometimes I get overloaded with electronic devices, even though I really don't wanna be on my phone. Sometimes I'll still be on my phone because it's an a. . So sometimes I have to break away from that. Sometimes I'm gonna say like, ah, throw the phone down. It's, it's over. I'm not doing this anymore.I'm going outside. I think you make time. I have a coach who coached me with marathon training and he said, and I was complaining about, I don't know, running five miles every morning. I was like, I don't have time to do this. And he said, you make time for the things you love or the things you wanna do.[00:58:00]And if you're not making time for that, it means that you don't wanna do it as much. Which is true, like if you really wanna do something, you are going to find a way to make time for it or make it possible, or, you know, change a little bit to be more fluid in the way that you present yourself or the way that you achieve that.So I think. being realistic, setting like 10 to 15 minutes of time to be by yourself to connect, I think is important. I really love people, so I tend to give myself a lot to other people, whether it's friends or like family or partners. So I have to be very conscious of making my own time because it's not them pushing time on me.It's me giving time to [00:59:00] them and then depleting myself. And so it's my responsibility because this is my problem, to have a loan to time, to have spiritual time, which are different and then have time with other people. So I think that that's the thing that I've learned the most. Is learning how to balance all that.And one of the things that I would recommend for that is asking people how much time they need to feel supported and loved by you or feel like they need to get to know you. And so scheduling that time consciously ahead of time, cuz everybody has their own plans. The older you get, the more people are gonna have their own plans and responsibility.So I think it's very responsible to, when you're talking to somebody, say, how much time would you like to spend a week? How much time do you have? [01:00:00] Are there any important days that I should be aware of? Would you like? And then when you get more serious, you say, would you like to share a calendar so you know what I have going on in my day and you know where I'll be?And like, that's just, it's, it's a. . Some people might not do that, but I find that it's very helpful because there is transparency there and you're giving somebody a space in your life. So even if they know that you're busy, they know that you care about them and they are brought up to date as to like what you're doing and you know what you like and stuff like that.De'Vannon: Oh, sweet. Transparency. Transparency and trust. I want you to talk about trust and then that'll be kind of like how we wrap it up because I feel like a lot of trust is needed in this, in this world, in this poly world. If you're gonna do it. [01:01:00] Okay. Lluvia: Well, well, first of all, we start off every relationship the same.Like there is no trust there, right? Every relationship is the same. You have no trust. You have to build it. . So the more time you spend with somebody, the more you share your life with them, the more you know their likes and dislikes the more trust is gonna be built up because you're spending quality time and you're getting to know them in an intimate way and intimate, not just physical, but intimate as to who they are and what they think and what they find important.So I think that that is very necessary to build. I think it's important to know not just like, oh, you can not just say to somebody, oh, you can trust me cuz they're not gonna trust you. Nobody's gonna trust anybody in the beginning. You take [01:02:00] time to know what matters to them. And I think building trust for me would be more like texting them, like saying hi in the morning, saying like, Hey, how was your day?What were you worried about? What's something interesting that you like and just like being there? Being there and being vulnerable I think are the two hardest things. Especially in the beginning when you're starting to date somebody. Cuz they don't, sometimes you don't know if they like you back right away and you're like all nervous like, oh, I shouldn't have said that.Or you know, should I tell them that? I was thinking about them the other day. Yes bitch, you should tell them, be vulnerable. It's hard as fuck, but it's gonna pay off. Like, do the thing that you're scared to do because everybody is scared. Everybody's scared. And yeah. So that's what I would recommend. I would say practice vulnerability.Don't be, you know, don't be stupid and [01:03:00] give somebody your, you know, social security number. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like being vulnerable bu about where you stand with somebody. That's how much you want to be with them and stuff like that. Like I think that's really sweet and like as long as you're not, like, I'm not a big proponent, proponent, blah.I'm not a big proponent of you hauling because yes, there's a lot of vulnerability involved, but I think a slow build is really, the lesbians are gonna kill me. The slow build is like really healthy for people. And I'm not saying it doesn't work out for some people. I'm just saying like there's more, the more you spend time you spend with somebody, the more you know them.The more trust is built, the more y'all are invested, and the less easy it will be to break a video1953292028-1: relat.De'Vannon: Oh, that's very high wisdom if I've ever heard it. [01:04:00] Thank you so much for your time today. Her on Instagram, y'all, she is Taco Blic, ma, also known as your cool aunt. And then on TikTok, she's also at Taco Bima and that's t a c o b e double l i double s i m a, the one happy taco right there. And so , if you have any last words of wisdom or encouragement, you may spin them right now or whatever you wanna say.Lluvia: Well, I think the most important thing is, is to have fun and to not take things too seriously and to just kind of like discover and allow yourself to make mistakes and recover from them. And I think that's the most important part cuz I didn't get too caught up in being, doing the right thing all the time and reading the right books and.Being appropriate to people all the time. And I got too caught up in the should and should [01:05:00]not, and I forgot to have fun. So I think it's very important that while yes, you learn and educate yourself, go out and have fun and have a good time and get to know people and, and then you'll, you'll find what works for you.De'Vannon: Oh, so sweet. Thank you so much for being our guide on the path to polyamory and y'all look forward to hearing from Ms. Taima in the future. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.Lluvia: Thank you so much for having me.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs in jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me [01:06:00] directly at Davanon Sex Drugs and jesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is Davanon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

Phantom Electric Ghost Interview DeVannon Hubert Author Reconciling Faith And Sexual Freedom BIO De'Vannon Hubert is the author of Sex, Drugs and Jesus, a memoir about his struggles with drug addiction, drug dealing, homelessness, serving in the Armed Forces, contracting HIV and HEP B, and rejection from his church for his sexuality. De'Vannon is also the author of Don't Call Me A Christian, a book about his views on the catastrophe that is modern Christianity. De'Vannon is also the host of the Sex, Drugs and Jesus Podcast and is the owner of DownUnder Apparel - A lingerie and sportswear store for men and women. Aside from this, De'Vannon is an Honorably discharged veteran of the United States Air Force and a graduate of both Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and the Hypnosis Motivation Institute. He also graduated from the Medical Training College of Baton Rouge and is a Licensed Massage Therapist. De'Vannon's story is one of surviving the social outskirts and finding one's way back to a balanced path. A Little Bit More About De'Vannon: My name is De'Vannon Hubert and I'm from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Discovering my sexuality while growing up as a Christian in the South wasn't easy, but I didn't get into any real trouble until my own church told me I wasn't welcome in God's house, in my twenties. Dejected, I spiraled into drug addiction and crime, and my drug of choice was crystal meth. After years of living life to the extreme with the craziest drugs and wildest sex I could imagine, my HIV+ diagnosis only told me one thing: Go out with a bang because your life is almost over. Today, my life is a very different story and much has changed. I'm not homeless, I don't think my life is ending any time soon, and I have an evolving perspective of what it means to live a balanced and spiritual life. I make it a point to have people in my life who many would say live on the "social outskirts" and who embrace ideas and practices society believes to be "taboo" because these are my people and we have so much in common. I have a dirty, sexual, VERY open mind and yet maintain a strong connection with Jesus Christ. I feel called to tell my story and connect with others to help them find a greater understanding of themselves and a path to spirituality as well Link: https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/ Support PEG by checking out our Sponsors: Download and use Newsly for free now from www.newsly or from the link in the description, and use promo code “GHOST” and receive a 1-month free premium subscription. The best tool for finding guest for your podcast: https://podmatch.com/signup/phantomelectricghost Subcribe to our YouTube to watch our latest podcasts and musical endeavours. https://youtube.com/@phantomelectricghost Subscribe to our Instagram to get exclusive content: https://www.instagram.com/expansive_sound_experiments/ --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/phantom-electric/message

INTRODUCTION: This marks the first episode of me speaking candidly about my recent breakup with my partner of half a decade. This was messy but it is the reality that I am currently living in and trying my best to overcome. All I can say is that you are not alone if you have been damaged by any type of narcissist. Let us ban together, heal and move forward. HEALTHLINE:  https://www.healthline.com/health/covert-narcissist  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      A Look Into Covert Narcissism·      Sex Addiction·      It's Easier To Tell The Truth·      Woman's Intuition·      43 Sexts Sent In 30 Minutes From My Ex To His Hoe·      Truth Mixed With Lies·      Broken Vows·      A Grindr Warning: Variable Ratio Reinforcement ·      There Are Too Many Options·      Options Are The Illusion Of Freedom   CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:   https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com   DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Covert Narcissism Breakup Part 1[00:00:00]De'Vannon: on December 24th. In the year 2022, I discovered text messages in my then boyfriend's phone. My boyfriend's of almost half a decade where he hadn't gone out in, had an affair back in October of 2022. A few days later, I discovered, well, within the text, within his phone, I found a few days after he had the first affair.He tried to go and have a second affair. It was about 1:00 AM. I can tell you it was not cute.Now, for those of you who followed the show and have been listening, you may have noticed fluctuations in my energy over the shows that have been released over the last two [00:01:00] months. That's because I've been really, really trying to process this and deal with it. It has not been cute. In February, almost sent myself to the hospital due to the way that I was self-harming myself.I, I found that it wasn't so easy for me to listen to a lot of the advice that I give to people. However, this breakup here is something that I've never been through before. This is my first official serious breakup, and this is the longest relationship that I've ever had. And so I'm not whining, I'm not complaining.I'm thankful for the experience and the lessons that this has taught me. I'm just letting you know. What's been going on. And at first I had said I wasn't going to, you know, do a show or go online and talk about this, but the further I get away from him and the more I reflect over what's happened, and I've talked to friends and different people who have dealt with the narcissistic people, and it's just, it's just absolutely [00:02:00] outrageous and it's just too much.And it seems like the more I write about this and the more I talk about it, it's like I'm taking that trauma that has been very, very deep rooted inside of me and lifting it up all out of me. And it's like when I put it down on paper or when I speak about it, it's like I'm letting that much more of it go.It's like I'm letting that much more of it go permanently. I'm not about to be,you know, a year from now, still hung up on this. I'm not about to be. still traumatized. It's time to let this go and move forward. And while I'm moving forward, I'm gonna see whatever I can do to help those of you move forward who are also healing from having been in a relationship or impacted in some type of way by narcissist.Now, whatever [00:03:00] I say in this episode or in episodes to come, you know, or my, my opinion and my research, I'm not a medical doctor. I didn't have no training in this, but I don't need a doctor to tell me what I already know and what I've lived through. I'm gonna be reading the definition for, for a Narcissist Soon from a Healthline article that I will put in the show notes for those of you who want to do some research on your own.Michelle, being in a relationship with these people can make you feel crazy. You're not crazy. They are crazy. And what they're trying to do is project their, their, their psychosis onto you and break you down. But baby, I'm here to build you back up today because we gonna have to come up higher than this.Soin the spirit of Taylor Swift, let the shade [00:04:00] begin. Honey, my name is Devan and Hubert. I'm the host of the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. And thank you for joining me today in Second Timothy in the in the Bible verse three through nine, it says this also no, that in the last days, perilous time shall come for men, shall be lovers of them.For men shall be lovers of their own. Coves. Boasters, proud blasphemers, disobedient. The parents unthankful and holy without natural affection. Truce breakers, false accusers in incontinent, fierce despisers of those who are good. Traitors. Heady, high-minded lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof from such.Turn away for this sort are they wish creep into houses and lead captive silly women laden with [00:05:00] sins, led away with divers, lust, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now, as Jonas and Johns withstood, Moses, so do these also resist the truth. Men of corrupted minds, rerate concerning the faith, but they shall proceed.No further for their father shall be manifest unto all men as theirs also was. from within this passage here. This is what stood out concerning my ex. You know, you know, lovers of themselves, you know, with, within narcissistic people, that's a signature trade. Narcissism is esp, apparently broken down in the covert narcissism, and overt narcissism is like a whole thing.And I intend to do a whole different show on that or include some of the information in the book that I'm gonna write because, you know, I gotta write a book about this baby. And so [00:06:00] it, it, it is a very self selfish way to live. You know, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. . You know, I, I asked my partner years ago if he thought he had a sex addiction or anything like that, and he was like, Nope, not me.It's those other people on Grindr. There's nothing wrong with me. When we went to couples counseling for the first time, we went twice, and by the time this all blew up, we both had hypnotherapist individually. We both were seeing the couple's counselor, you know, I have also a licensed clinical social worker that I see.We were in front of a lot of different therapists, but the first time we went to the couple's counselor, what they do, and we went over there in Louisiana State University in their grad school program. It was like super cheap to go, like maybe 15 bucks a week or something like that. [00:07:00] So for those of you who need mental health treatment, check your local, you know, colleges and universities.They might have a, like a, like a, you know, like a, a special program like that. , you can get in on the cheap. The first thing they do over there, and I thought this was super thorough and very unusual, was they take both members of the couples or every, many people and they put them in separate rooms and they give them separate counseling for many weeks, months, or whatever it takes because to sort through each individual person's issues before you bring the, the, the couple together in the room.I took like, I dunno how many weeks to go through it all. Cause they, they, what they asked you is tell us all the trauma, anything you think bad is happening to you from the time you were born up till now. I know I took my good sweet time. I'm in there crying about like my grandmother's death and stuff and I thought I was over, you know, et cetera, et cetera.My ex child, , [00:08:00] he did like one whole session, told them people, was there, nothing wrong with him. And then that was that. I thought that was strange. I did not have the knowledge that I know now. If I ever meet somebody who looks me in the eye and be like, I don't have any problems. I'm going turn and runOkay. Like the road runner trying to get away from Wild E Coyote or no? Mm-hmm. . I didn't un, I did not know what a serious like red flag that that was.Let me see. Verse seven says, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Like I mentioned, we had so, so much therapy over the years. There's so much in, in, in home Bible studies, in in education, you know, that I was trying to, to, to, to, to guide us through is like no matter what information I put in front of this child, you know, this boy, he never [00:09:00] evolved.He never grew. It is like, When we would sit in front of the co the couple's counselors, they would echo this and be like, and for the purposes of this broadcast, we'll refer to my ex as Ethan. And you know, they'd be, they'd be telling Ethan you know, doesn't seem like you're really getting too much out of this.You know, he would just sit there in counseling, be quiet, not say too much. And the little he did say was some sort of defensive foolishness, you know, that that really wasn't productive or anything. I thought some of this was like immaturity. I hoped he would like grow out of it. I was like 36 when I met him, and I think he was like 21.I don't, you know, age does not, does not mean anything to me. I had, you know, issues trying to date people my age trying to date men my age because the men my age, I mean like clockwork. Every date that I would go out on, all they wanted to do was sit there and talk about their ex. . [00:10:00] I'm like, well, why don't you go back to him then we here now.But literally, this happened so much so the people my age came with all this baggage. I thought to myself, now it's like, self, why don't we, you know, go down here and find someone younger. They, they probably won't have an ex to sit there and talk about. In this case, it was true. Ethan didn't have an ex to talk about what, well, our problems begin because he had like a litany of fuck boys, you know, you know, no exes, but a thousand people he slept with in, in, in an, in inability to disentangle himself from, from his oversexualized nature where you live and learn, bitch, you live and learn,but you know, You know, the warning I want to give the narcissist out [00:11:00] there is like how in verse nine, here it says, but, but you know, but, but you shall proceed no further, but your father shall be made manifests unto all men. As these people who had the nerve to, to, to withstand Moses, was. Now look, everything that's done in the dark is gonna come to the light.There is no hiding anything from God. And whether you believe in God or not does not change the fact that he has power over all things. And the error of a narcissist is to put themselves in the place of God. They wanna manipulate and lie, control the narrative, rearrange things. But you see, you can't worship God in yourself at the same time.And I guarantee you, you going to lose because God has power over these things because God has power over all things and is a terrible and dangerous thing to fall into the hands of of the Lord.[00:12:00]Now from that Healthline article that I had mentioned,It says A, A covert narcissist has a narcissistic personality disorder, also known as N P D, but does not display a sense of of self importance. Often associated with the condition. They may deal with insecurity and low self-esteem. These people might seem self-centered or so focused on their own importance that they've lost touch with reality, or maybe they don't appear to care about others and rely on manipulation to get what they want.Some of the traits are shyness and introversion, self-consciousness, insecurity, defensiveness, sensitivity to what others think of them. Bitch. If I had read these traits when I first met my ex-boyfriend, I would not have stayed with him as long [00:13:00] as I did. However, at the same time in my head, I was considering that I did not want to be found to be a hypocrite before God because those of you who follow the show in read my books and writings and things like that and heard me on other people's shows, that I'm very grateful to have had the opportunity to go on.You know, you know that I've been through, you know, a lot of like, a lot of self-inflicted things that I did to myself, you know, from being homeless and getting hepatitis and H I v and you know, all the felonies and being in and outta jail. It took a long time and a lot of people. They helped to bring me back to life.I didn't think that it would be befitting for me to leave at the first, second, third, fourth, fifth sign of trouble. You know, I received a lot of mercy. I received a lot of grace, you know, and as the Lord tell us freely, you have received, freely give. Maybe I ticket it too far. Maybe, you know, it's certainly I'll let myself be taken advantage of.But you know, that's okay [00:14:00] when, when the time truly came to stop, you know, the time truly came to stop and you know, everybody's gonna look at this and go, you know, damn, I wouldn't have stayed with him that long. You probably wouldn't have. But I've perceived extreme amounts of grace in this life and it falls to me to give other people extreme amounts of grace more than enough space and time to get it right.The beautiful thing, you know, in January, as I was struggling with this, I mean, I was. And I was fasting in January. I didn't have any alcohol, no mind altering substance or anything. Not because it's sober January, but because I was seeking a special thing from the Lord. And you know, when you really, really want something deep from God, you gotta get quiet before him and you know, and deny yourself things that you would ordinarily have until that sacrifice to see if you can get God to move.I had already set my heart to do this before [00:15:00] I found out about this, you know, about Ethan on you know, almost at, you know, at New Year. And I was so like disoriented. I don't it, I don't think it was because of the fasting. It's not like I was fasting all day. It was just the emotional mind fuck of having found this out.I was like, I was walking around my house, walking into the walls and shit. I'm missing appointments. You know, get my interviews, my podcast interviews, all crisscrossing, screwed up. You know, disorganized, can't sleep, not eating right. You know, it's like I didn't recognize who I was and over what some, some shit a human than, than to mechild. We, you know, I thought I, I would've thought that I would've been stronger than that. You know, I would've thought that I would've had more, you [00:16:00] know, you know, infrastructure, internal strength built up within me than that. I didn't realize that being this close to a person, you know, and they devastate you can throw you off like this.But we've been throwing off, but we can get back on track. I'm thankful to be talking to you today with more life coming back into my voice. I was deflated for a minute, but you know, Yeah, boys, I'm coming back to life now. I'm coming back to life. Now.The fucked up part about this is that Ethan already knew about like, my history with like my dad's cheating. Cuz you know, my dad had a couple of affairs on my mom, one of which, when he, when she was pregnant with me. Yeah. So that's how I came into the world. And I'm not complaining, it just was what it was.He already knew about the guy from when I was in high school when I was 15 and the other guy was 22. I mean, trying to give [00:17:00] me AIDS and things like that, you know, I thought I was dating him or whatever. I know I was 15 child first man the, show me any serious attention. I, you know, I thought I was doing something.Though, he also, this dude in my book, I call him Nico in my sex drugs in Jesus book. I call him Nico. Well, he had this whole like fiance, you know, , you know, living in another state the whole time, who just suddenly moved to Louisiana and showed up at church one day. I, you know, I like, okay, where did, where did this person come into the picture?It's like, I get, humans are going to do like, fucked up shit. We all do. I've done fucked up shit. I'm not trying to paint myself out to have had been perfect here. You know, Ethan stood by me with my drug addiction. You know, going out there and sleeping around and stuff like that. I am not perfect, but what I always did with [00:18:00] these three men didn't do Ethan, my dad and Nico is come back and tell the truth so that everybody affected, can make decisions.Okay? I think that that's about all you can ask from many human, cuz you're not gonna get perfection out of anybody. You know, just come back to the table and tell the truth. No matter what I went out and did, I always came back and told him that he can decide if he wants to stay, go. We're gonna go to counseling, you know, whatever.I expected that in return, you know what you've done is what you've done. But how in the hell can you look in somebody's face from one day to the next, lay down in them and lay down with them in bed at night in the case of cheating, potentially expose them to STDs and things like that, and not give them a say in it with no conscious, no remorse.You can go cheat, fuck whoever, tell nobody and then lay down and [00:19:00] sleep and see sweet dreams as though you've done nothing wrong. I look, I look at my ex like he's a devoid of a soul, devoid of humanity, you know? Who the fuck does shit like this? Let's get more into it. Like I said, for the purpose of this pro broadcast, my ex's name will be referred to as Ethan.There's gonna be three fuck boys of his that we mentioned. And like I said, he has many, he has many, I couldn't even get, it was so hard to enjoy the fucking relationship with him. Everywhere we go, he's like, I fucking, everything that moves through the room, constantly getting messages from social media, not even like Grindr and Jack, just like social media, you know, people trying to, to have to fuck him again, who he's fucked before.You know, and then, I mean, grinder and Jack couldn't even much, [00:20:00] barely got on dates with him trying to be on there, trying to see who he could fucking ex, you know? And I, you know, I didn't realize what, like a serious problem this was, but I was trying not to judge. Cause I was like, you know what, when I was in my twenties, I was the same way.But when I was in my twenties, I did not have a serious boyfriend. You know, because as soon as I met, met a guy who, who gave me a little bit of attention, I stopped, you know, any kind of like being on apps or anything like that, because I'm the type to be too clingy too fast. You know? I would let stop talking to all the other boys, you know, just for one.And although my ex claimed that he wanted like a serious relationship, he didn't act like he wanted a serious relationship. That's another thing about these narcissistic, manipulative people. They say one thing, , but then their actions in the, in the, in the way they speak. Don't, it don't line up. [00:21:00]You know?And that's a part of what rips our minds apart because it, we want to trust them and we wanna believe, and we wanna make it make sense. But they constantly live in on two different planes. They live in one reality. You live in another reality, you know? And that's why it's so easy for them to lie, manipulate, because they have never really been down to earth in the first fucking place.Fuck boy. One will be Jared, fuck boy. Two will be Nick. Fuck boy. Three will be Nate.Now this is December 24th when I find this text. You can't tell me women's intuition ain't real, baby. You know? And I believe women's intuition and the Holy Ghost, the spirit, whatever you want to call him, running tandem. It was like a comb. Calm, calm, calm [00:22:00] sense of knowing that came over me. It wasn't anxiety, it wasn't insecurity.It was like, Hmm, something. Don't feel right. Something ain't right. Something ain't right. Something ain't right. You know? Unlock his phone because we have access to each other's phone, you know, and go and scroll through and find all that. The Lord gave e Ethan space and time. Like the Lord gives us all space and time to come and tell me this.He beside it. When I woke him up at one in the morning, he just started lying, lying, lying, lying, lying, lying. In in, in my book that I'm gonna be writing, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have this, this, these text spelled out so you can see exactly what he said and, and things like that. This fool sent [00:23:00]43 text messages, text messages to this fuckboy, to who was he?This was Nick. He was, he was texting Nick 43 text messages in 30 minutes. This is just Ethan talking to Nick, not counting Nick talking back to, to Ethan. So you probably over a hundred text messages between the two of them in a half an hour. During our relationship. Ethan never asked me for sex. He's a part of this, this, this, this fucking pandemic epidemic where men cannot ask for sex unless this's through an app or through some sort of technological device.And in the relationship, you know, I was primarily the bottom. He was primarily the top. You would think that, you know, most Thompson would be able to get out there and get after a piece of ass if they wanted. Mm-hmm. , not these little boys running around [00:24:00] here, . They cannot, they absolutely cannot. , you know, so he was able to go on, you know, find some fuckboy on an app and get very heavily, aggressively sexual with them, seeking them out, initiating conversation.And all I got was complaints from him throughout a relationship. And I had to do the initiating of the sex, but he could go and, and give this side of him to a stranger where we've been together for half a decade. That cuts. It really, really does. So on. But before, but before December 24th, I had found out about Jared.Jared, who is fucking boy one Ethan and I had gone to New Orleans. Huge argument. I'm so thankful I will never [00:25:00] have another argument on the streets of New Orleans again. Only two people in my life have I ever had this unfortunate experience with. Both of them are narcissistic as people. Both of them have unresolved issues that come out in angry fits at 2:00 AM when they're drunk.I've been in New Orleans a thousand times twice. Told is the, that's the only thing we come. You know, everything's all, you know, everyone's like arguing. This fool was so drunk. He took an Uber back from New Orleans to Baton Rouge, tried to blame the Uber driver for taking him to the wrong address and everything.And it was like a whole thing. He comes back to my house, he's all fucked up. I offer him to let me back his car out of my garage. He's like, no fighting hits my car and everything like that. I check my I check his location just to be sure he got home safe, hoping we could talk through it. I look on [00:26:00] his location to find him at some man's house child.I'm all like, okay, and who is this ? This is somebody he claims he's not fucking, and it's like a, you know, like a whole thing, you know? And we'll, we'll get more back on Jared later. I did not believe him. Something just didn't feel right. Now this is 7:00 AM and he's over at Jared's house and I go, this don't make sense.Ethan's trying to say he was just talking to him over, over some apps or social media, whatever. He just met him and I said, oh, Uhuh, ain't nobody gonna let you at their house at 7:00 AM unless y'all fucking, I got people I've known for 20 years. I can't just go rap, tap, tap, tapping on they door at no 7:00 AM I'm gonna get cussed the fuck out.Uhuh, nobody's dead dying or going to jail yet. Don't disturb people at 7:00 AM At least not physically in person. You can call some shit and see if they're up. But [00:27:00] I said this is unusual. On this day, he lied. This was October 30th. He lied and said it was his first time meeting him the next day. He said they had hung out twice by the time the full truth came out.come to find out. They, they, they, they had long history together, honey, long history together. Th that's how, this is how Ethan did. He would, he would present me truth mixed with lies and then sell it as though it was a whole truth. So, on the 21st of November, because I never could get peace with this, I said, something still don't feel right, something still don't feel right.Are you telling me the whole truth? And I said, you know what? We gonna do a vowel, you know, to God from my research, some, some, some poor women out there have been so, so, so degraded and [00:28:00] so de deconstructed by these trilon ass men that they've gone to get lie detector tests done on these men. Look, I'm gonna tell like this, if you come to a point, and it, and I, it's when you've got children and all of this to consider, , their situation's different.If you have things that tie you into people, but my God, being with this person is gonna run your mind and you it is gonna wear it out, you'll have a brain left. So I, I find a way to leave. If we've come to a point where we, where we have to have our men or women or what, or everything in between, whatever sort of per person you with, if they have to take a vow to God before you believe them, or a lie detector test bitch, it's time to go.We all deserve to be with somebody who, who we know is gonna look us in the eye, tell us the fucking truth we about where they've been, who they've been with, or what they have and haven't been doing, and what their plans, hopes and dreams are. We should not have any fabricators around us. [00:29:00]Mm-hmm. like the Lord said, from such Turn away.From such turn away. So I wrote, so I wrote out this vow. . Ethan and I, you know, touched hands and, you know, did a special prayer and really, really signified This. Vowels are real, real vowels are very, very real. And God hears you. You can't, you know, God sees everything and he hears everything, okay? It is not, it is unwise to lie before the throne of God.But let me read to you this vowel. This is how deep, deeply entrenched in deception narcissists are and how just detached from reality. Now this is, this is, this is what Ethan vocalized on the 21st of November. By now, he had already had the affair, was planning to have more was planning to keep Jared in his life.[00:30:00]You know, he was not planning to get rid of these people. So not only did he go out and do what he did, he was planning on keeping them around. Personally, I feel like our relationship was over. , you know, back in October when he did all of this, he just didn't have the balls to come to me and say, so when I go to break up with him, he's acting like why?He really couldn't understand why I was leaving him. . You know, this vow is a promise made from Ethan to Devan and Hubert, and before the most high God, the father of Jesus Christ, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, and the God of the Israelites. This vow is in direct relation to the secret relationship between Ethan and Jared.Ethan Vows. The following is true without exception, and Ethan vials this to his hurt, pain, and retribution [00:31:00] in all areas of his life. Should he state and attest to anything that is not true and accurate? Ethan Vials the following. There was nothing in the chat stream. You did not want Devan in to see me pause here.There was a an in Instagram was, was how Ethan was communicating with, with Jared. And one thing that I need to heal whenever stuff like this has happened is I need to see what, what, what, what he said to them. First of all, cause I don't believe, I didn't believe my ex. And what, what Ethan did was, while we were on the phone that night of the 30th, he and I asked him to save that, that that chat stream.So that, and he's of course arguing, well, why do you need it? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He intentionally deleted it, [00:32:00] lied and said he didn't know how Instagram worked when he just, he's always on social media. Could never get him off his damn phone. He knows how it worked and then cuz I did like a test of it myself and went to go delete a message and the whole big red screen pops up and says, are you sure you want to delete this?He's trying to act like it was an accident. You know, later on he would confess, he intentionally deleted it. But the thing was, I told you I needed this to help me. He intentionally deleted it. Okay? So that's the chat stream. A part of this vow was trying to, for me, trying to get peace about that because there was a whole ga gaping space there, a whole block that was missing.So I continue. There was nothing in the chat stream. You did not want to van and the sea. There was nothing sexual and you did not delete the chat stream on purpose. This is what Ethan is vowing to, to, to Christ. [00:33:00] Now you and Jared. Never had sex or did anything even remotely sexual. You know, Ethan, in this guy's conversation never was sexual in person or over Instagram.The two of you never watched pornography or anything sexual in nature. You never flirted with Jared in person over Instagram or in any other way at all. The nature of your conversation was completely friendly. There was no kissing, touching, rubbing, or physical contact between the two of you besides a possible handshake or other greeting goodbye gesture.You never spent the night at this place and you never stayed past dark. You attest. There are no secret people you are visiting have visited in the past that you have not told me about, and there are no more guys you are in communication with in any way [00:34:00] whatsoever. This is November 21st. I'm sorry. Yeah.2022. On the day that Ethan took this vow, I did not know about Nick and Nate . So on the day that Ethan took this vow, he had not yet divulged to me that him and Jared had a sexual history. They've been fucking back in college, off and on. All the things that he vowed to God were not true, were true.This whole thing. And how, you know, how did I find out about this? Because I will confess to y'all, cuz I don't mind letting my reputation be shredded. Hell it already is. Shit. . I mean, you, you read my book, I listen to my shows, bitch. I've done what I've done. I've did what I've did. So it's too late to try to keep it too fucking classy over here, girl.And so , [00:35:00] I allowed myself to become so pathetic and so insecure and so stripped of my identity and my fierceness that I went, and I, I, I used my own phone to, to secretly message Nick and Nate to try to verify what, what, what, what Ethan was telling me. Whether it was true or not.One of them never responded.And the other one Nick never responded and Nate caught on to that. It was like, You know, a ploy of mine to try to get truth out of him. And he basically told me what I'm telling you. He was like, okay, you don't need to be with somebody who makes you feel the need to go around and skip trace and find truth.And, and you know what? I, [00:36:00] I, I texted Nate back. I was like, you know what? You right. This is so sad. This is so pathetic of me. Look at what I've become . Look at what I've become. You know, you would think it would be easier, you know, to, to, to walk away from somebody who's hurt. You like this, but it, it's fucking hard to do.You know? It is really, really fucking hard to do. When I did start to break away from Ethan, it's like I had to wean myself off of him. I took like 24 hours and we used to text all throughout the day. We spent so much time together. I took 24 hours to just like not communicate with him at all. And it was fucking hard.And I think I fell short of that slightly. And then, then I took like seven days. It was after that seven day period that I realized that I didn't miss him. It was peace without him. And then that's when I broke up with him. But it was fucking difficult. Even after that, it was still hard, is that I was trying to see can there be a friend she could, trying to [00:37:00] negotiate, trying to negotiate with, with, with the person who devastated me is not healthy.All of my counselors and everything are like, girl run . They like you, they're like, you almost put yourself in the hospital and everything like that. You can't be worrying about Ethan right now. You know, you, you need, you need to be worrying about you.And so the, the, the fu I don't know if it's funny or fucked up, you can be the judge of that, but in, in my conversation, talking, texting, Nate. One of the people Ethan had, had been slept with before. It's like, it's like Nate was trying to get me to leave Ethan for him. He , you know, he was like, you know what, I've been through this too.And he, he, he and he, and he began to be a, a comforter to me. And I was like, well, this and shit. One of the people now, Ethan did not, well, as far as I [00:38:00] know, you know, cheat on me with, with Nate. There's somebody like away from his past or something that he slept with. He, and she did try to go sleep with Nate a few days after.He did go and fuck Nick, but Nate didn't answer the phone. And that's probably to Nate's benefit because Ethan was running around here covid positive while he was cheating. And that's a whole other thing there. But um, And so I, I thought that that was most interesting. But I was like, we're not about to have us a trauma bond and go live a life because Ethan did fucked up shit. But, but Nate was like, I don't wanna talk to Ethan no more. He can go eat shit and die cuz that's just wrong. And so this whole thing is just dumb because all throughout last year Ethan and I were trying to work on having actually an open [00:39:00] polyamorous relationship.Ethan was on this thing. He was like, he wants more variety. He feels like people in their twenties should just be ho. And I would tell him, no, that's just you. Not everybody in their twenties fucks around like that. And so, but I didn't hold it against him. I was trying to not be judgmental for my part. I was glad to have broken free of the church's influence over me, making me feel like everyone had to be monogamous.And if they're not monogamous and they're evil and sinful and. The devil's gonna drag them down the hill, you know? And I did my own research and everything and I was beginning to break free of that. And and I never dealt with people like that. That was just something that I was struggling with in my own head.Half the damn Bible is, is, is polygamous. So people who think that everyone should be monogamous and just, just fucking go to hell and be done with it. Cause I'm tired of dealing with the way they try to control humanity. And so well, I'm not tired of dealing with it. I will strive with those bastards, you know, you know, for [00:40:00] as long as I possibly can, but I am tired of hearing their fucking rhetoric.But the whole thing was dumb because by the time Ethan decided to go do this, we were having orgies with people. We had tried having sex separately from people. He had this fixation where he was gonna have him a certain amount of fuck boys and or whatever. And I'm like, okay, I don't see why you have to have a number but me.It was more like having the freedom to not deny a connection should I happen to come across somebody For him, he wanted a set this many people he sees every month. Okay, well, he has all kinds of insecurities and validation issues, and really, he, he is leeching off of men to feel better about himself because of his own internal struggles and know all this.Again, this is the person who sat there in counseling, like a damn silence, like it was a silent disco or some shit. Didn't say too much. Okay. Hmm. Thinking I'm gonna stay with him. They [00:41:00] had the motherfucker had the nerves to ask me to still stay with him, to help him work through his issues. I'm like, you've had damn near half a decade of counseling to do that the fuck, have you been doing this whole timeSo I'm like, no, you had your chance. It's never, so that's why the whole thing was dumb. I'm like, we already fucking other people. We had paused it because we, I had made some mistakes. He had made some mistakes, so we needed to regroup. We paused. And so he can start a job that I fucking help him get. And and so, so we had, we, so he couldn't make it to the counseling sessions, you know, he had to reschedule and shit, you know.But I'm like, dude, this is stupid. We're already fucking other people and talking about it. Why in the hell would you wait till now to go and retaliate against me for whatever you think I've done? You know, from years ago, we can't even remember the last time I've done anything in the way of [00:42:00] disrespecting him with another male.I had outgrown that and evolved, and evolution is a word that my ex does not know. And and I'm like, it's just stupid. We're already literally doing this. Why in the fuck would you go and do this? And it wasn't until January again, he took that vow on November 21st. It was January. I, I used Ethan's Instagram. To message Jared to ask them if they'd ever been sexual because it just did not add up to me by now. Ethan was trying to say, remember at first, Ethan said he had only met Jared that first time on October 30th when I discovered him through the phone locator.Then he changed it to [00:43:00] two, three times. Eventually, he moved it back to really, they hung out. They started hanging out in September long before October, and they hung out four times and that they didn't necessarily message every day. And I, and I told E Ethan, I said, all right, I messaged Jared, are you sure that you, there's nothing you want to tell me now By now, Ethan's parents had had to come to town because he had drunk himself into this stupor, shaking and dribbling and shit.And I wasn't sure if he was gonna have a fucking stroke, you know? He, you know, it's just so, so crazy. These narcissistic people, especially these covert ones, will go and do all of this dumb shit. Then when the hammer starts to fall on them, can't face the judgment. And then when, in his case could crawl into cheap bottles of vodka and I mean cheap, you know, I would walk into his house, these huge plastic bo leaders, plastic whatever's down there on the bottom shelf [00:44:00] beneath Skol.That's the ch, that's the gasoline that he's up there drinking because he can't deal with the fact that our relationship is crumbling because of some shit that he's done. His parents doesn't have to come to town that to check on him. And everything. His mom and I are trying to talk through this with Ethan, and I'm still trying to find out a way to help Ethan.You know, I'm like, let me get the mic. Let me get the lens off of me and put it on him. You know, I'm at my best when I'm helping someone else, and so I said, maybe if I can just stop worrying about myself and see what he needs here, you know that that's what I started to do when I first discovered all of this treachery back in October, but all Ethan did was take it for granted and lie to my face the whole time.Now we're in Ethan's house and his mom is asking him for the truth. Ethan's lions to his mom too. His dad, you don't give a fuck. At least the fuck boy had enough integrity to tell the damn truth. [00:45:00]Granted the fuck, boy didn't necessarily know that he was talking to a whole family of people, so maybe he would've lied too.I don't know. But I asked Ethan, I said, Jared is about to respond to this. Are you sure? There's nothing you want to tell us? Is this the truth? Ethan is sticking to his lie. He's like, no, I never had sex with Jared. Never, never, never, never, never. Rubbish all of it. And that's when Jared responds. Yeah, we fucked around in college.Couple of times, . Okay? And the, the, the, the hurricane and the storm ensued from there. Hmm.I don't think Ethan had seen that movie as the thin line between Love and Hate.All, all I'm gonna tell y'all for right now is that it is, and that I did what I did.So[00:46:00]oh, thank God. I can laugh about this now. Ooh, Jesus. What a deliver. further insulting, not to me, but to Ethan, is just how tragic and trifling these fuck boys are. You know, when I was out there trolling social media, I found, you know, Jared he, you know, his other fuck boy of Ethan's, you know, they'd be like, on unlike Facebook begging people from money and shit, you know,you know, begging people for money,And I'm like, okay. I had Ethan on first class flights to places, you know, that I paid for. I had him a whole wardrobe and shit that I paid for. You know, I furnished his, his house mostly, you know, we had [00:47:00] plans to go on, on cruises to go to the Orient. He has a passport. He's never fucking used. I had plans to change that, you know, you know, to take him, you know, more places.Once I found out about, you know, Jared, I canceled every fucking trip. Every fucking trip. You know, that was devastating enough when I, when I looked on there and saw that he was over at that boy's house, it's like my heart fell through the core of the earth. And I called Ethan and I told him like, you're hurting me.Didn't give a fuck. He stayed over there at least good an hour and a half, just smoking weed and doing whatever. So I said, okay, you just going. Chill. You just gonna like Netflix and chill with some, with some dude that I, that I don't know exists. And this is totally okay with you, so, okay. Okay. Okay. [00:48:00] I, I, I, I, I, I, I did some things.I did some things. I did some things. But this is, this is like the low quality of people. How in the hell are you going to run around behind the back of one such as myself? I don't usually toot my own horn, but I'm gonna say I did a hell of ala for this boy. It was my priority in life to enhance him, to do what I can, to uplift him and elevate him and to bring him up.It doesn't matter if it's a plant that I'm growing a chicken, I'm raising a cat or whatever, whoever and whatever I have some sort of influence on, I need to see that they can do better. I need them to evolve. I need them to grow. And but all Ethan did was interpret that as control. He called me controlling so much, said I didn't want him to have friends.I mean, he, he, he, he, he kept talking to me like I was his enemy. And I kept asking him like, please don't [00:49:00] make me your enemy. Oh, well, he made me his enemy. Well, if he wants to take any trips now, perhaps he can go back on Grindr and get a one-way ticket to someone's bedroom because that's about all the fuck he's going to get.And speaking of Grindr and shit, y'all, let me warn you in my research of all of this, the, these apps use, I believe that they use this thing that I discover that's called a, a variable ratio. Reinforcement is something like what casinos use, where you where every now and then you'll win or you'll hear.You hear a sound that is, you know, a special tune or a special note tailored a certain way to inspire excitement from your, or anticipation. You don't know when it's gonna happen, but you know, if you keep at it, eventually something will happen. This is why people sit in front of the slot machines are saying, the casino for hours, hell, I've done it.Wouldn't that bitch eight [00:50:00] o'clock at night come out at noon the next day? Be like, where the fuck did the time go? How long we been in this motherfucker? ? Okay. Okay. You know, all them apps are no damn different. I, I don't think most of you would care to actually tally how much time you spend on Grindr, , you know, or jacked or scruff, or whatever the fuck the case may be.I've done it. But this variable ratio reinforcement is like an algorithm or a way that those apps are designed to create addiction and to make you be addicted to them. In my research, myself included, many people have reached out to Grindr and these apps to try to get them to ban us from them so that we stop using them.I'm here to let you know that they, they're, they are, I'm gonna say they're less than transparent about whether they can do that or not, or whether they want to. I mean, I don't really think, I mean, they have to, the [00:51:00] billions that have been made are not enough. They still need more , so they're not really trying to let us go, you know, it would seem, but be careful of that, and I encourage y'all to research that variable ratio reinforcement because that shit is real.And don't let these apps and, and all of this shit like destroy your life. You know, I, I was reading an article that guy who created grinders after he got, came out of hiding or whatever, he hasn't started a fucking breakdown, has, has creators, areas working on creating some sort of healthy, alt alternative to Grindr.That's because he knows what his creation done, done to people. , okay? This is a serious thing. It's a very, very serious, but this episode is not about grinder. God knows I'm gonna do a whole episode about that. But suffice it to say, bitch, don't nothing take the place of meeting someone in person. Nothing takes the quality out of meeting someone in person.[00:52:00]I was mentioning earlier how these men, especially tops, because, you know, I'm usually submissive and I, I like a man to be able to look me in his eye and say, what the fuck he wants . Okay. You know, I speak that language when I was in a relationship, I would just be like, can I get me some dick tonight? Let, let's get to the point.I mean, I, I could, I could be flirty and more like sensual with it, but you know, I like it rough. I like it . I like it aggressive and that shit turns me on. And so I get that's not everybody's personality, but you still should be able to like state what you want my nephew, you know? Okay. Yeah. Both of my siblings have sons now, so it's impossible you to tell which ones I'm talking about, but, but one of my nephews, and they were younger instead of coming to me when they would be hungry and just be like, uncle Dev, I'm hungry.Can you please fix me some food? Hand me the box of cereal or whatever the fuck [00:53:00] you know. They would come and be like rubbing their stomach and shit and be like, my tummy hurts. Hmm. Okay. You old enough to talk? , you could just tell me you're hungry. You don't have to like beat around the bush or drop subtle hints and shit.So I saw this bitch assness creeping up in my nephew and I told him, look, your ass gonna starve unless you can just tell me what you want. Cause I didn't want him growing up to be one of these HOAs dudes who think people just supposed to follow them and do shit for them. And you know, they don't have to just tell the world what they want.Like the world is supposed to interpret their signals. No, it is our responsibility to make people understand us and to make people believe us and then make people get what we're trying to say. And just like that I broke him that he never did that shit again. The next [00:54:00] time he was hungry he just said, uncle Def, could I please have some food?Absolutely. . Glad we had this conversation kiddo. Good talk. So, but these damn tops can't ask me for ass. They my, my, my, my boy, my ex-boyfriend couldn't I, but I was so, I was so willing to work with him. I was like, do we need, do you need to send me a text? I wasn't being sarcastic or mean. I was like, okay, if this is where we have to start, this is where we have to start.Do you need to send me a text to get this started? , this is after a half a decade. He still couldn't ask me for sex. Now you ask him, he gonna have all his reasons because he gonna say, because he tried years ago and I shot him down. What? He came at me wrong. But what he would do is internalize one or two or three negative things.Act like that's gonna be the standard, and use that to justify his inactivity today. You know, because it gave him something to [00:55:00] argue with me over. I'm like, it's been years since that shit has happened. Okay. You, you, you can just drop that or let it go. And I told him, when somebody first do you something true, it's on them.But if it's been all this time that has passed and you still talking about that? No. It's just you being a bitter bitch, you don't wanna let it go. Uhuh . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so, so I was in like port of era till like, back in December and over there being the good boyfriend and not getting no dick, although they was trying hard to throw it at me.Well, they was trying to be tricky about it and shit. So the club was getting ready to close and I was hanging out with these two dudes I had ran into and, and sh I was feeling myself. The shirt was off, I was twirling about, but I have always been one who loved the dance floor. , when I'm on a dance floor, I'm not really trying to talk to men.Y'all sasses need the weight . [00:56:00] Okay. Because I'm all about getting dipped down, but not while I'm twirling Uhuh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No. And so I'm dancing and the club's getting ready to close. And these two guys I ran into and we had just, I guess, just started hanging out. I'm not, I wasn't trying to fuck because I was trying to like, you know, be faithful and you know, and communicating.And my partner and I had not worked out how we were gonna be open. And I was pausing that, you know, and I just said no. I could have reached out to my ex to ask him for an exception, but I wanted to demonstrate that I was putting him first, even though I had many options in front of me. And I communicated that to him while I was yen in Mexico.But these dudes who wanted to fuck, couldn't ask me. They were like, what they did was like, they took out their phones and they were on Grinder, and they made it a point so that I could see that they were on grinder. And I guess the whole way that this is supposed to go is if everybody takes their phone out, [00:57:00] I'm, I'm standing right next to them.If, if everyone takes their phone out and everyone's on Grindr, then I guess somebody's supposed to say, well, hey, we're all on Grindr, so maybe we can all go fuck or whatever.You're tapping me on the shoulder and being like, the show, the, the, the club's closing. So we're leaving now. Wink, wink and Grindr on my phone is not going to make it so that you can cut these cakes, honey, you to come out better. Just being like, bitch, let's fuck. Like, that's, that's, that's, that's more like to the point, , you know, than.Then acting like my little nephew did, dropping hints and shit like that. I don't respect it. It turns me the fuck off. And it does not communicate to me that once you get me, wherever it is you're trying to get me, that you can actually dominate me. Like, I'm gonna want you to . So, because if you, you can't [00:58:00] even like say what you want, how the hell you going to do what I want?Okay. . So , so I think about Madonna's song Love Profusion. I don't care how weak people try to say, I think that was on the American Life album. That, that, that, that, that every song on that album, Ray of Light American, American Life, all of that gave me absolute life. My, my, my quote from Love Perfusion was when Madonna was talking about there are too many options.There is no consolation. Okay? We don't need every man in the square on Grindr. We don't need to be sleeping with, you know, all of those different people a week. You know, if you have to have that much sex with that many different people, and [00:59:00] I've been there before when I was in the military, two to five different men a week was no, was, no was nothing.You know, I could easily do that. You know? What was I 18 living in Tucson, Arizona. I wasn't old enough to go anywhere with no gay bars. There was one club I could go to on Thursday nights, which was deviate. Other than that, it was Desert Rays I'm serving during Don't asks. Don't tell 'em. These are not excuses.I'm just telling you. I had issues that I should have been in front of a counselor dealing with, rather than on gay.com trying to fuck. I had, I was sleeping with that many men on on gate.com when you had to print out directions and go, can you imagine what ahoe? I would've been at the age of 18 in the military, in a college town with, with apps at my disposal.Sweet JesusI'd have no asshole left. God, [01:00:00] there are people now with the same, you know, dad issue that I had. You know, whatever their version of that is, who do have all of these apps at their disposal, and we live in a world that it seems like no matter what the hell you do sexually, they just call it sex positive.And just go on with that. No bitch. Sex positivity is balanced, respectful, respectful to yourself and to others' approach to exploring your sexual nature. That doesn't mean as much as you want to do, however much of it you wanna do in whatever way you wanna do it. It's all good as long as you're not raping somebody.No, . I need y'all to mature beyond that thinking and but Madonna hit it on the head. There are too many options and it seems like no matter how many fucking options people get, the more unhappy they become. I have never met so many people who are like in between 20 and 40 who have cars, houses, fuck [01:01:00] boys fuck girls, drugs, alcohol trips and travel who are depressed have anxiety.I'm like, what the fuck do y'all want? Is like one thing that's fucking you up is that damn social media. I believe that social media promotes low self-esteem, and I thank God that I'm really only on there for my businesses to tell people whatever I, you know, I've written or whatever show, whatever the hell.You know, my ex used to just flip through Instagram, flip through Instagram, flip through Instagram. He's full of in insecurity issues, super need for validation. I would tell him like watching hot men on Instagram and shit ain't gonna help you listening to whatever the fuck they're saying on Instagram's not gonna help you.The attention span is already short, so going from real to real is not going to help you. There's a damn 80 fucking Riri Adderall shortage now, and I didn't [01:02:00] know this many damn people needed this just to remember to like pay bills and shit. I'm not judging you for your mental health issues or for needing the drugs or none of that.What I am saying is social media is not your friend . Okay? You are never gonna get far in life if you're watching other people live their own life, okay? It's okay to pop in every now and then and be entertained, but I couldn't, we'd be hanging out and I would be trying to tell my ex, Hey, can we talk about something?He'd very angrily put his phone down and be like, talk about what? Okay. We watched that documentary on Netflix about that. Can't remember what the fuck it's called, but they did it D about that social media shit, which is a warning. And there were people in there being angry. That damn movie that came out, Megan, about that crazy ass fucking doll.I didn't think that movie was bloody enough. Way more people should have got their sasses slaughtered. But that dog could dance though. I would [01:03:00] give Megan this, that bitch can pick me up and go to the club bitch. But Same thing. That little girl in the movie was strung out on that doll. It's like God is speaking to us through movies and shows and television.It's not just entertainment. These things are inspired by real life to reflect real life back to us. I really couldn't get ever get my ex on board with this cuz I would like to have deep conversations about the meaning of the things that we would watch and how it relates to us. It was all too deep for him.He felt personally attacked and it was like, you know what? Because he wants to live on the surface. He didn't wanna look deep cause he didn't have to face himself. He'd rather alternate realities. But I'm just summing up to say this, be careful with that damn social media. That shit was still your life.It's a, it can fuck up your mind. It can make you feel more insecure than what you already do. You know, my quote on this is that options are the illusion of freedom [01:04:00] to be careful with that. Again, options, baby. are the illusion of freedom.I, like I said earlier, I had warned my ex about his oversexualized nature years ago. He deflected it, of course it was everyone else but him. You know, and he was on that same tangent of sleeping with, you know, multiple people a week. When I met him, I didn't judge him for it. I was like, you know what, how can I tell you?I didn't tell him to stop when we were still first dating and all, and, and just sorting out whatever I just said, respect me with it. I don't need to know about it. I'll never do that shit again. Never. Because I found some people do not know how to have a, a sexual life over here and respect people over there without it crossing over.They, they just don't and so,Let me see. So Luke, I'm going back to the Bible. Luke chapter 21 in [01:05:00] verse 34 says, and take heed to your cells, at least at any time. Your hearts be overcharged with overeating and drunkenness and cares of this life, and so that they come upon you unawares.When I think about this,I think about a, a scene from Percy Jackson's, Olympians and the Lightning Thief when they were in that casino thing, and then people were giving them those sweet treats or whatever in order to keep them locked in there so that they wouldn't make it. On their journey. I think that's the one where they were trying to take that lightning bolt back to Olympus to, to prevent the war.It might have been the second one. I think that's from the first one. At any rate, basically they were using something that they liked. It was like a sweet drug thing to distract them to run out the clock on them. Cause I'm gonna take this like super spiritual right now, like getting caught up [01:06:00] with pleasures in this life, overdoing it.Kinda like on Grindr, like sometimes you'll be on there and fuck, before you know it, your whole day is gone. The shit you meant to do, you didn't get done. There's all kinds of thing. It's like a microcosm for living. Like we can't spend all of our time try to find someone to sleep with, looking for someone to sleep with or sleeping with someone.You know? We have to have variety in life. You know? We have to have more to show for or show for life than what whatever it is that we love on this earth the most now. God didn't say don't have pleasures. He just said, you know, balance it out. He wants you to love him more than you love your pleasures.ButI don't, I don't what, what I see a lot of is a lot of people mainly mentioning God, like during times [01:07:00] of emergency or crisis or being very like, casual towards him. Now you not gonna have like eight hours of prayer a day or nothing like that. But it's about like the intensity, you know, it's about how much you mean it, you know, you're alone time with God is the most important time.But, you know, I don't, you know, the, you know, the people, I'm the closest way. We, we, we, we talk spiritual talk, we speak of judgment to come and things like that. We talk about Dick too. Then we talk about drugs too, but we also talk about Jesus too. You know, my whole thing is like, Balance. You know, in this world everybody talks about experiences.That's a word that gets tossed around a lot. What experience do you wanna have? Experience, experience, experience. And that's all great, but do you love your pleasures and experiences more than you love God? Are you more intense about the pursuit and enjoyment of these pleasures and pleasures of, and experiences more than you were intense about your pursuit of God?[01:08:00]You know, do, do your pleasures cause pain and devastation to other people? You know, I mentioned earlier about Ethan fucking people when he had covid. It, it was October the 16th where he had this affair with shit. Nick, look, I, look, I've be getting all these fuck boys of, of Ethan's confused child. . I had taken him Pax livid because he was, was covid positive with symptoms. And I'm sitting there concerned that he's gonna, you know, maybe die or some shit, you know.So I stopped my whole day to go bring him this medicine. Now mind you, we had just got back from Oregon the week before, went up there so that I could do some medically guided psilocybin and M D M A therapy to help me get over some trauma, some of which Ethan had [01:09:00] caused. But you know, and he held me in my arm through the session.I did not know that while we were yet in Oregon, he was already in communi, he was already hanging out with, with, with, with, with Jared. Jared. And then he was he had already started to see him and he was, he was already in communication with the people he was planning to cheat on me with while we were up there.And I flew, paid for the flight, the, the place we lived, and every fucking thing. And we come back here. He, he, he gets covid. I'm like, where in the fuck did you have gotten covid from? We saw the same people. We were around the same people, you know, tell, you know, you know, I mean, who knows who in the hell he didn't go out and see and get this from, but on October the 16th, I go over there, bring him this pax livid around like 4:00 PM by 6:00 [01:10:00] PM I think I may have left there at 2:00 PM at 6:00 PM He wakes up from a nap.The first person he texts is Nick, you know, or whoever the fuck I tell, I'm getting their fucking names confused now. Whoever he had the damn affair with, that's who he, that's who he went over the, you know, he, he did not, he did not tell him that he was covid positive, you know? I went through the messages.There's no talk. I went through the phone logs. There is no call, like you did not communicate this. Nobody in their right fucking mind would have somebody up to their house who's in the middle of a covid infection. You could wait those 10 days bitch for the medicine to kick in, can't you? Well, apparently not.And so it just hurt more because I'm like, damn, you couldn't have cheated on me like the day before , the day after. Why [01:11:00] did it have to be the same day that you literally saw me a few hours before I bought you medicine to keep your ass alive and a little bun bunt cake thing from nothing. Bunt cakes too, you know, to make it like cute.I was headed to the Middle East of my 40th birthday gift to myself, and I was gonna be. in you know, in the Middle East. I did not know if I was going to show up covid positive while I was over there. I was testing myself every day, you know, enough to meet the minimum standards to be able to travel. I should have taken that Paxlovid myself, cuz that was the only prescription I could get my hands on.I made the decision to give it to my ex to give it to Ethan, you know, cuz it would've, because I just didn't wanna lose him, you know, to that disease. And I have known people who have died from Covid and he knows this. I could have gotten my ass stranded [01:12:00] in the Middle East, cuz if you take those tours and trips and you test positive they leave your ass in the hotel, you're, you're towards canceled in TataSo I risk being stranded and abandoned in the Middle East to give him my medicine that I should have taken with me or began taken, and I gave it to him instead. . And on that same night, a few hours later, he goes to cheat on me and then comes home and texts me basically good night. Like he's done nothing wrong and didn't nothing say anything, ever, you know, until I discover it.Then when I do discover it, he lies. When I discovered those texts, he didn't tell me the truth. He lied, and then I just didn't have peace about it. Look, God not gonna leave his children in the dark forever, but the Lord gave him space to repent and to tell the truth, and he chose lies [01:13:00] instead. I got into them phone logs into those text streams, a

INTRODUCTION: In today's episode John M. Verner and Ms. Patrice help me navigate a discussion on my new book, Don't Call Me A Christian: What Does That Word Even Mean? This is a completely free book and can be found at SexDrugsAndJesus.com.  JOHN VERNER'S BIO:  I hold a Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Exposition, with an interdisciplinary in Literature, from Moody Bible Institute. I was one of two recipients of the MBI Homiletical Jury Award for outstanding preaching in 2016. I have experience as a youth pastor, pastoral intern, academic journal editor, and guest speaker. I used to be a part of the largest cult in the United States. In 2019, I published my first book, The Cult of Christianity, as a first step in addressing the subtle issues of this complex system. In 2021, I continued my work with this podcast!   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      A Review Of My New (FREE) Book·      Raising Children With Inconsistent Religious Information·      The Effects Of Religious Trauma ·      Truth Is Found Outside The Church·      The Birth Of The Bible·      Is The Word “Christian” Really Worth It CONNECT WITH JOHN: Website, Social Media & Books: https://linktr.ee/thecultofchristianity  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT:[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello all my children and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. In today's episode, John m Vanier from the Cult of Christianity podcast is Back with us, along with Ms. Patrice, and they're here to help me navigate a deep discussion into my new book, which is called Don't Call Me a Christian.What does That word even mean? This book is completely free and it can be found at my website, sex Drugs, and jesus.com. [00:01:00] In this episode, we're gonna talk a lot about the effects of religious trauma, whether or not the word Christian is really worth it, the birth of the Bible, and just so many things. . Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host with the most Savannah that I have with me, the wonderful and great, incredible, beautiful, Patrice. And then we also have the powerful and very well learned in edge Ed John m Vane. How are y'all doing today?Pat: We are doing well. What about you? Good to hear you.De'Vannon: I am marvelous darling, and living my best life. Everything's just gonna get better from here on out.Pat: Yes.De'Vannon: Now y'all are both in the greater Atlanta area and I think that it's really, really cool. How's the weather over there today?[00:02:00]John: Rainy.Pat: Yeah, it's overcast. Just kind.John: it's been, it's been rather warm, which is great, but the past two days, it's been very, very rain.Pat: Just about. Yeah.De'Vannon: that's how springbegan. Pat: you?De'Vannon: It's like partly cloudy, no rain in the forecast. So I've been out there, you know, personally watering my garden and everything. But, so what was I gonna say about Atlanta? Hmm.Pat: And it's the.De'Vannon: we'll circle back to Tyler Perry Studios in just a moment. I was about to dare to do like a tie-in before we explained everything, because I really, really, really like talking about Tyler Perry.But but we'll, we'll circle back in just a second. So, so on today's show, everybody you wanna be talking about, this new book that I wrote, it's called Don't Call Me a Christian. What does that word, any, what does that word even mean? And John has read. Patrice has read it and they're gonna let me have it one way or the other and tell 'em if they really, [00:03:00] really hated it.I really, really couldn't get enough of it, and hopefully they got the point. And so is there anything that y'all would like to tell people about your own personal background, history or anything like that before we get into the book?Pat: For me, I'm actually born Catholic, Roman Catholic. I've deviated from it over the years. I am way past 50 and, you know, have lots of questions that have not been answered by the church. John, you have anything to jump in and say?John: Yeah. Yeah, so if, if y'all have heard me before basically I, I studied to be a pastor and then various stories, left the faith myself and now you know, do a lot of work to investigate colts and religions. And yeah, I'm always happy to talk about this stuff. So I'm excited to get.Pat: Great,De'Vannon: Okay, so let's hop right into it. Let's, let's take a [00:04:00] look at the book. I pride myself on designing very enigmatic book covers or polarizing. I wanna know what each of you thought of it and if, if you picked up on the points I was trying to make, or did it all just kind of look like it was thrown together.John: Nothing ever looks thrown together. It looks like you put a lot of thought into it. I, I, I honestly get a lot of like, almost like frustration and angst from the cover. Like, but, but the weird sense of reverence too, because there's a lot of you know, classically Christian imagery in it. You know, I didn't, I don't read too much into the book covers.They say you shouldn't judge a book by it. So I didn't read too much into it, but but I like it.De'Vannon: Thank you very much. What about you, Patrice?Pat: I actually, you know, now looking at it strange enough, I am not a book cover person. I [00:05:00]look at it just to see the name and then I go right into its contents. Now looking at it, I'm seeing that there's, you know, a lot of things you've put in it. So it's a, a visual manifestation of what you're thinking about the church of old, of, you know, some freedom on the bottom.There's just so much going on when you look at it. So I really did not see the effort, but now I do. As you draw attention to it, there's a lot of, there's a lot going on that I can actually accept, if that makes sense to you. I'm accepting everything that's there. It's not like it's just thrown together.It's purposely put,De'Vannon: Okay. When you say there's freedom on the bottom, what do you mean?Pat: I'm looking at the bird in the cage and he has freedom. So it, it's, it's so many different moving [00:06:00] pods that I'm actually looking at right now, that I'm seeing the body, you know, it's like there's blood, there is the chalice, there is, you know, light, there is the, the dove. Well, well the bird, there's the freedom of the bird.I'm, that's my interpretation.De'Vannon: Right. SoPat: mine.De'Vannon: you know what? You're spot on. That's exactly what I was going for with that bird. I view that cage as. Entrapment. You know, you can call it the church, you can call it the dogma. You can call it the mindset behind it. And the, you see the cage is open, but the bird hasn't necessarily left yet.Pat: Right? Correct.De'Vannon: You know, nobody puts a gun to our head and makes us go to said church or 10 said religion or be a part of said denomination.And even though, like when I was there, there was so much that I hated, I didn't like, I felt uncomfortable and I compromised and I said, well, I'm just gonna stay here anyway, you know? But the church was not like the military, you know, I couldn't leave the military when I [00:07:00] wanted to, but I could have walked away from a church at any moment.And rather, but rather than do that, I stayed.Pat: Correct.De'Vannon: Let me see, what else can I talk about? I'm not gonna talk about everything. Go ahead, miss Patrice, you wannaPat: No, no, no. I said that is exactly what, you know, you're seeing in this, when you look at it, you do have that freedom to leave, you know, but then you also put in the spider web that is just showing that, you know, it's, it's something that's old, it's something that's, I wouldn't say crusty, but it's just we have just fell into such a funk that we are not gonna leave.We're gonna leave everything as it is. Even if it just, it just be, it decays. . So me looking at it now, I'm thinking, okay, it looks like there is a decay in the religion, but we still stay where we are. We're comfortable, we're safe, we're not gonna move.[00:08:00]De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. . And yet none of this was meant to be disrespectful to the church or Christianity or anything like that. But like the, the, the whole, and this is technically like a kind of an altar, so to speak, in. The whole premise of this, like you said, is looks a little outdated. Like it is kind of like it's been setting there.The blood is very vibrant because it still works,Pat: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: but the webs and the whole, like the fog and everything represent the confusion that has entered into Christianity and kind of taken over it. And so that, that was the point of the book, was to talk about what a Christian really is and isn't, and the impacts that the, that dichotomy has had on the world.John: Did you put the word Christian in blood font? Because of all the blood that's been that under the banner of Christian has been.De'Vannon: I was thinking more of what a horror show it's become, but you know, the crusades or, or [00:09:00] the actual, literal, literal blood that has been shed, and then the mental and emotional blood that has been shed fit there too. This is a bloody business. This is a bloody business., okay, so I'm gonna get getting more from you Patrice, on like, when you left the church, you said that you grew up Catholic and then at some point, I know you took your kids out of the Catholic church because of how the priests were and everything like that. Can you talk to us about that?Pat: Yeah, sure. Okay. Growing up, we were staunch Catholics. You know, you go Thursday evening, Sunday morning, you had to go to church. It was the standup, sit down, knee, down, the same thing, just, you know, over and over and over. There was not very much in the standing, it was just whatever was, you know, spoken to you or told to you.You believe there was no, you know, you did not ever question anything. Mask for me was in, it was in [00:10:00] Latin, so you barely understood it. You just went through the motion. I ended up having, you know, you had to stay married to somebody in your religion as well. That's not part of the Roman Catholic Church, but it's part of being like a staunch Catholic.De'Vannon: Mm-hmm.Pat: along years after, you know, we had kids. and we couldn't explain to our children what was the process of this going to church and religion and we had no understanding to impart to our kids. We went on basically, let's say a quest. So my husband and I, we went on this quest trying to understand the meaning of God through the church.We were in college. You stumble upon the block of history. You start going to history classes and they start teaching you a lot more [00:11:00] about questioning God. We had no answers. So everywhere we turned to, we didn't get an answer. We didn't get an appropriate answer. What we got was versus was the interpretation from the church of what we were trying to get.We didn't get like a full stop answer. It was just, Like a quest onto the next question. So we lost faith and in turn we couldn't put our kids on the same path that we were on. We were like the, you know, like a little hamster. We were just on that little treadmill just going around and around and around.How could we impart this docket? We did not know what to impart. We did not know the true meaning of Christianity to start. How could we become [00:12:00] Catholics to end? We had no beginning and we had no end. We had no answers to questions. We were just confused, frustrated, and at that point could not really in good faith, continue.This trend, it's, we went nowhere basically. I hope that answers it. It's, you know, fundamentally what we had going on in our minds was we had no an, we never had an answer. And the answer you would get constantly would be somebody else's interpretation. It's not science. We understood. It's not science.There's never a tr a true, you know, one plus one is two. It, it was somebody's interpretation of it. and it just didn't swing. And then along came the [00:13:00] corruption being unraveled in the Catholic church with, you know, the priests with all these things. It also cast another fair in our minds in that, you know, you have sons and you don't know what could happen to them in the church.That we felt compelled at the time that this is not the place for us, we could just worship at home. And that's where, you know, that's where we've been and that's where we still are. We have moved our needle ahead at all. We are still in the same predicament, literally maybe 20 years in. So I hope that helps.De'Vannon: John, anything you have to say about what she said?John: Yeah, I'm just, I'm, you know, sorry for the experience of, of what I would call religious trauma, of being told that something is definitely true, that doesn't make sense. [00:14:00] And then being left with that confusion and being left with that feelings of like betrayal of trust, not just, you know, interpersonally with people you might have met, but with like the whole system with the, you were told that a story about how the world is, about how how Christianity or Catholicism came about.And then meanwhile there was severe coverups going on. And that that's something you can't just shake off and move on from. That's, that can be very earth shattering. So, I'm sorry you went through.Pat: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's, it's like if you dig a little deeper into it, you start realizing that, you know, it's at the same time they're trying to teach you. Catholicism, but then they're also put in Santa Claus, they put in the Easter Bunny. They put in all these things. So you have, as a [00:15:00] child, a belief, you believe in these things you really believe until that's shattered.And then you realize, okay, the only thing you had to support you at the time was religion. And then that becomes shattered. So what actually is true? Is there anything true? There's no truth to, basically, I feel like there's no truth to life because everywhere along your way of, you know, when you're an adolescent, when you're a child, you're an adolescent, you've been fed all these different things that you unraveled to be untrue.So now where is the truth? It has been dashed away from you. and you can't recover it. So you now have to find a good support system in that, you know, your spouse, who can actually have the same mindset as yourself, who can just say, look, just [00:16:00] even if you turn away from the religion, still believe in God.And as I said, that's where we are. We just believe in God, but we don't believe in the religion. You know, that's trying to put it together. It's like, it's like a, it's super gluing faults, so you just super glue all the faults in the world and you, you know, bring it to us as religion. Instead, we need to figure out what is actually true to ourselves and believe it.And just, you know, I, I don't know the correct word,De'Vannon: Why, why?Pat: you know,De'Vannon: why? Why do you, why do you believe truth can't be recovered? Who do you, who do you believe owns truth?Pat: We own our own truth. We have to own our own truth.De'Vannon: Well, for, to me there's a difference between owning [00:17:00] truth and discovering it. Discovery is more like a journey to discover knowledge. It almost sounds like you're saying because you no longer have a relationship with the church, truth is out of reach.Is that what you're saying?Pat: No, actually I'm saying I, I don't know how to put. , I don't know how to put it. I'm sorry.John: I can, I can offer a perspective on this that, that might be different than both of y'all's. For, for one, I don't definitely believe in a God. I don't necessarily, I'm, I'm, if you want to call it agnostic, you can, but I just, I don't, I don't think I need to believe in God personally. So for me, what truth boils down to is an unknowable thing, right?Like if, if, if we're talking in a, with absolute certainty, no human being can know the truth behind all things, [00:18:00] we will die believing some lies. But what is definitely possible is to discover certain things. are more likely to be true than others in, in that sense, if you're using the word truth more as like a spiritual reality, a purpose or something like that, that I agree is very individualistic.But if we're talking about more truth in, in regards to like what really happened, what really happens, there are best guesses when we look back at history, there are best guesses when we look at what's going on right now, there are ways to verify things and, and there is some science to it and there's some art to it. But it is possible what the church has done that's really damaging to many, many people is warped their v warps, their confidence in their abilities to actually know what is true. . People can learn a lot of things but churches need [00:19:00] people to not learn a lot of things in order for their messaging to work. The more ignorant their congregation is, the easier they are to control for their own purposes. So, so that's the comment I wanted to put forth is I think not only does truth exist outside of the church, I think that's the only way you can get to truth, is if you get outside of a church.Pat: Correct,De'Vannon: Because the church, cause the church has an agenda. So so Patrice, what I'd like to know is, do you think it's possible that your kids were molested before you got them out of the church?Pat: No, not at. Only, the only reason I would say that they were baptized into the church and they were what, maybe a week or two weeks old at the time we got outta the church, literally when they were about, EH, [00:20:00] four, and four. And they were always with us. So, you know, I didn't, I had that fair. So I don't think we even went past three or four years old when we couldn't answer questions for them because the, my truth started to be muddled when I started to have to tell them about, try to teach them, you know, some of the prayers and I was just doing.In rotation with my husband. We were just saying the same prayers over and over. We didn't understand we, what we were saying. We had no clue. We had nothing to back up what we are saying, some we were even seeing in Latin. So we, we, we did not know what to do. So I do not believe at the time that they would've been molested because of the fact that they were not in that church left alone without [00:21:00] us.De'Vannon: Okay. Well that's, that's very refreshing to hear. Sometimes it happens, you know, and you know, we don't find out till like, later, later, later. I didn't realize they were that young when you had taken them out. For some reason I was thinking they were close, closer to their teens.Pat: No, no, no, no, no, no. That's why, sorry, go ahead.De'Vannon: so, so, so you said you had some questions that you still have for the church now John's a bible scholar.He used to, you know, be very high up in churches and stuff like that. Do you have a question you'd like to pose that maybe he can help you?Pat: Well, you know what? Let me start from the beginning. I have always questioned literally the, you know, how do they, how do we get about to this Bible? Where did we start? That's my first question. Who wrote it? Is there any concrete evidence that what we have written is exactly what was said? You know, that's my first thing because [00:22:00] we are reading a Bible that is said that is, you know, said to be God's, you know, from God.But then we have interpretations of it. We have versions of it. We have different things. Things may have been lost in the, you know, Conversion from language to language, all the predecessors of the languages. So things could have been changed, things could have been lost, things could have been inputted that weren't really there at the beginning.John: I'll, I'll go ahead and just dive into that and say everything you're saying could have happened, did happen. So, so there is no short way to answer how we got the Bible. That's like, that's, that's three hour lecture type stuff. . Cause it's a, it's not one book, it's, it's, you know, spans thousands of years of history. It wasn't assembled till, you know, somewhere between 100 ad and 300 ad. So there, [00:23:00]there's a lot of question marks and I, I, you know, I'm not the biggest Bible expert. I, I know a lot you know, I read the original language and such. But.If it could happen, it did happen. There were things taken out. There are things that were chosen, there were things that were not. There are things that have gone through at least one to one to three languages before we're even talking about English translations, when we're just talking about getting the original stuff together. Because you've got Hebrew agree Latin all and Aramaic and all these things working together. So yeah, you're right to be skeptical of that. There are , there are there. It is a, it is a mind-boggling thing. So for it to ever be presented as this was just written by God is, in my opinion, very reductive and very unfair, I think that's a bad way to look at the.Pat: Yeah, it truly is. You know, so you know, so then you, you, okay, [00:24:00] so if I start with that as being my platform, you realize I have nowhere to go because I don't have a solid base. So I have interpretations of something. I don't have the science behind it, which I'm sad to say. You know, you feel that you need something solid to cast your own thoughts, your own beliefs on, and I don't have that solid base.De'Vannon: so what you're saying, like this isn't like really just like a one pointed question. This is kind of like the overarching theme of like your whole grievance is that you just don't trust what you have to pull from. It's too corrupted.Pat: Yeah, it, it's corrupted. It's corrupted over years. Not corrupt in being, you know, bad corruption. It's just interpretations have been corrupted or been changed to what's going on in our life right now, what's [00:25:00] going on in the world right now. So you've changed everything to be, you know, more in a subtle way.You changed it so that it could conform with our new identity. So something back in 1940 is not applicable in 2023. So you just changed the religious aspect of. To conform to modernization, if that makes sense. We're just changing along the way. We're just going along. So we're on a, like a conveyor belt and religion is along with us.As long as we keep going down the path, religion is going down with it. It's changing, it's evolving. It should have, it should be able to stand the test the time which it's not able to do. So you know, they have another, you know, problem in that [00:26:00] what we have had in the past is no longer applic applicable to the present.So my belief Dean is not gonna be the belief of somebody 50 years from now because it's going to evolve again. It's gonna change, you know, as you said, you know, we want to. Behave as if we are still learning from not just God, cuz I know John, you don't believe that there is a God, but you believe that there is.There is something like a being. There's something that's the same thing I was learning in colleges, that there is something may not be a God. I just tend to hold onto it because my religion is still weighing me down and saying that there is the God, but there's something, you know, just something out there and I, I got to hold onto [00:27:00] something or else I feel empty.De'Vannon: right. So thank you for explaining all that. Now, the last question I have for you, then, John, if you care to talk about the way you parted from the church, then that's fine. If not, you don't have to. But both of y'all have completely different like ways that it happened. You were very studied and then you left Patrice, you were under the Catholic education, and then you left.So my question is, once you left the church, how did you continue your education? John already had plenty of education before he left the church. So since you took the church, you know, outta the picture, how did you compensate for that?Pat: For me, I just engaged in other activities, I guess, engaged my kids, I engaged my, my other past science, my other hobbies, other things to fill the void because there was nothing I could put back, a pour back into myself to make me. [00:28:00] Really get back where I was. You know, when you're young, you are, just believe everything that people say until you have to pass that knowledge on to somebody else, to your kids, and then you realize you've, you've come up short.I came up short, did not know what to pass on, did not know what to do, so I walked away. I had nothing to fill the void with. I did not have a sense of purpose to go and find out for myself.De'Vannon: Okay.Pat: I didn't, didn't have that, didn't have the resolve to want to do it, didn't want to do it.De'Vannon: Okay, so I'm bringing this up to, to drive a point home. Many of us leave the church to get kicked out. Whatever happens, and then like the mistake I made when I got kicked out of Lakewood was I let that drive a wedge in between me and God for years, and I should not have done that. So when we were pull our kids out of the church, if we're not gonna let the church teach them, then we've gotta take up that [00:29:00] mantle for ourselves and.John: Well, I'll ch I'll challenge that really quickly. Why is that bad for you to have a wedge there? Because, you know, you, you, you seem to, I I'm, I'm hearing a lot of like, shame in this, in this narrative of like, when you, when you leave church, you should feel ashamed for it, or, or not, not church per se, but because the church hurt you, you should feel ashamed because you're less engaged with God.Well, who told you you should feel that shame for being less engaged with God. I can't find that anywhere in the scripture I've read. So, so I, I would just wanna challenge that, that that's actually okay for you to not feel like you have to be engaged with.De'Vannon: Well, the thing is, she, she, she still was yearning for it though. She just didn't know where to go and get it, and, and I don't.John: sure. But, and Patrice, I don't mean to speak into your story, but a lot of church leaders have been telling you that you should be yearning for something. [00:30:00] The what? What if, what if We don't need to be yearning for anything. I'm all for holding onto hope. I'm all for personal spirituality. I'm, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but what, what worries me is when people are traumatized by what I call cult leaders who have, who have created neuro paths in their brain to make them feel like, oh, because I don't have the same thing I had as this child, this like expectation that there's something greater than me looking out for me.If I'm not engaging with that mysterious, ambiguous thing that I'm somehow failing in some sort of way. I don't, I don't see that as failure at all person.De'Vannon: Well, I, I'm so sorry if it came out like I was trying to judge her. I'm not. It's more like, it's morelike John: I was hearing you judge yourself davanon. That's what I was.De'Vannon: Oh, well, that I did really, really, really, for a long time I blamed myself for what happened at church, and that's no joke. I really, really did. But you know, it wasn't meant to be like a [00:31:00] badgering at all. It's, it's more like a conscious thing. You know, most people believe we have a soul or a spirit or something like that.And so if the church was feeding you and you take that away, then what? You know, like you said, it was a void. You know, what do we like? What? What do we fill with? It has to be some sort of other religious education. Now you can Google a lot of things. There's videos everywhere. There's all kinds of ways that you can go and learn, and so,Pat: I, I, I agree with you in that you feel the void, but, and John, you're correct. . I shouldn't have to feel this way, but you still have to live in a world where, you know, you have brothers and sisters that are still in the religion that seem to want to question you. People love to question, why did you leave?Or why, why aren't you going to church? You know everything that that happens to you in, in your book, dev Divine, and you're seeing [00:32:00] people reap what they sow. Now, because I've left every bad thing that has happened to me, the first thing people go to, they're handle is, oh, it's because you left the church.Now that's not the same thing you say, when I have something great in my. . So something good in my life, you don't tell me, oh, it's because I left the church. So you feel that, you know, yearning to be a part of something because everybody else is a part of something and you are left alone. So you're like on the outside always looking in that you don't have that religion or that crux.I wanna put it as it is the crux or the crutch to hold onto that everybody else has. I feel like the one-legged person in the two-legged race because I don't have something to stand upon. I just don't have that solid base. And they do make you feel guilty that you are not [00:33:00] in a religion. Cuz if you look at everywhere you go, sorry John, but if you look at everywhere you go, the first thing you do, if you go to the hospital, what religion are you?So are you judging me because I'm a religion? No, they're judging you because they need to know what your practices are. Okay? So if I have none, they tend to look at you to ask you, well, what were you, they're still seeking out something from you. So you are not a whole person until you have a religion to stand behind.And I know you said, you know, there's like cults and stuff, which I, I do read upon, but everything basically stands upon religion. And if you don't have it, you are near ostracized from the rest of the world. in politics, you have, you know, in your book you've [00:34:00] seen like the re Republicans, they want to stand with the with, oh God, I forgot what you, you call them.What did you call in your book? The Christians, the, the, the, some, some type of Christian, you know, so if you're not Republican with like those, that type of Christian mentality, you're kind of democratic with a different mentality. So everywhere it comes into play, so when you don't have it, you feel like a castaway.De'Vannon: Mm-hmm.Pat: that is where I have that constant feeling, that void that you always feel is your lost connection with the rest of the world who've basically put themselves into different religions to garner respect, wealth or power or whatever. So I'm, I'm feeling the [00:35:00] void because I can't identify, that's my best word.I can't identify.De'Vannon: Okay.Pat: am to everybody else. And you know, like the minute somebody says they're agnostic, people basically will be, oh, in our religion, in Catholic religion, they're not going to want to accept you or even speak to you. And, and there's so much wealth of knowledge. You can come to us and change our, or instruct us or teach us or help us understand, you know, it, it, it's, it's a big, it's, it's, it's bigger than, it's, it is really big.It's really, really big.John: Really quickly Patrice, I'm, I'm glad you brought up the word identity because. When I was reading your book, I really kind of, that that was what I really thought it was about more than anything was about identity. Because frankly, when I read it, you know, it's, the title is Don't Call Me a Christian.And then I felt like I was [00:36:00] reading a summation of what Christianity is. And so I'm, I'm, I'm very interested as to, to your identity when it comes to was that like front of mind when you were writing the.De'Vannon: Thank you for that question. And after I answer this, if you wanna say anything about your parting from the church then go ahead and then, okay. So my point is to get people to break away from terminology, because what happens is we can get too caught up on what a word is supposed to mean and let the definition of the word. Carry far too much weight than what it actually does. So that mean, if Karen is a Christian, she'll go around saying she's a Christian.She won't make gay people wedding cakes, and she'll kick certain people out, but she'll be like, Hey, I'm a Christian. See, Christian is an action word is a word of love. It's not just like a word. So whether you were ever called a Christian or not, if you live like Christ, then you are one of his children.It's not about the [00:37:00] word, it is about identity, like you were saying, but we can identify what the whole trinity without being called a Christian.John: I don't know if that's true. Only because this is how, this is what? I would say in general because first off, I very much empathized, like my last days as a Christian, I would've eaten this book up for sure. Cuz this was literally my position was I believe these core things about Christianity. I'm sick of the church, I'm sick of all the garbage, right?And so I was like, I don't, like I had that feeling that a lot of good people who are Christians have, when someone, when the, when the conversation one way or another ends up in a place where you have to identify as a Christian and you don't want to that is a, that is a thing that happens. And so I kind of did it begrudgingly.I was like, maybe I can go back to saying I follow the way, maybe I can do, I, I, I think you like the term Christ [00:38:00] follower, right? So like I had a lot of those same thoughts and feelings. Here's the problem, I'll, I'll, I'll do it by way of example. If a, let's let you know, let's say a cop says the guy who murdered George Floyd isn't a real cop.Well then that just dodges accountability, right? Because now he is just saying, oh, he is not a real cop. I don't particularly enjoy men cis men specifically. I don't enjoy cis men culture in general. But I am a cis man by every functional definition, right? I could certainly identify somewhere else and, and there would be definitions and things that would go along with that.But in general, just because I might not like that culture or whatever, it doesn't necessarily change who I am. So sometimes when I'm reading what you're writing, I'm like, well, you're describing the Christian faith. Is is something you [00:39:00] believe. So, How can I not call you a Christian if, if you're describing essentially Christianity,De'Vannon: Mm, because I don't go to churches. You know, when you think of Christians, you automatically think of like a physical building. You know, I prefer to be called like a believer than a Christian, but I get what you're saying. If I've checked all the boxes, check, check, check, check, check. Then how can you do this and say you're not a Christian.I get that, but I don't wanna be called one because of how much pain that word calls as people. You know? There was one time I was talking to this lady I just met and I think this was the last time I told somebody that I'm a Christian. She paused, got like super uncomfortable. I wasn't sure if the, the conversation's gonna even be able to continue.And she was like, are you the good kind or like the mean kind? You know, and right and right. Then I realized people have, like, this is a triggering word if, if people haven't personally been [00:40:00] hurt by the church like us, then they probably know someone who has. And so I don't want that word to drive a wedge in between my witness to somebody else or the work that I'm doing because I'm insistent upon being called it.And that's really why I divorced the word.John: Sure. But like a lot of cops hate the word cop. They say, I'm a law enforcement officer, so, It's, that's great. They want to, they, they understand there's a problem or whatever, and they wanna distance themselves from it, but that doesn't really change anything systematic. Right? Like, it, it, it, it doesn't, it doesn't actually deal with the issue, at least my perception is it's not dealing with the issues of Christianity. Because, and this is a personal thing that we're obviously free to disagree on, but for me, I'm like, no, the actual mechanics, the actual theology, like ideas of the Trinity, ideas of you know, sin are like part of the cult structure. Like the, that's part of what does the damage, not just some Christians who were mean [00:41:00] sometimes. So, so that's just kind of the, the, the crux of what I was feeling when I read the book is I know you, I know you're a loving person. I know you're a good person personally, I think you'd be a good person whether you were a Christian or not. So for say, go ahead. I'm sorry.De'Vannon: I was just waving. Thank you.John: Yeah. And so since I, since I know that about you, like I, I see this as like an identity issue where you're like, I just don't want the identity of Christian because I don't identify with these Christians. And that's fine. It just, it that makes labeling, labeling in general, I'm also not a fan of, but at the end of the day, we have to have some labels for legal reasons, for , like conversational reasons and, and those kind of things. So I, I didn't know if that, if I was spotting that correctly or if there was something else you were trying to do with the book.De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. . I wanted to use that title to get people's defenses down so that they would be open to a conversation about the Trinity. Now, I left the church, but I didn't go [00:42:00] as far as you. To, to stop believing in God and everything like that. As we discussed when I had you in my show the last time, I've had too much miraculous stuff happen to me, which I believe.And so for me, you know, it's important that I just never, ever, ever have a barrier. Cuz I had a dream years ago and it's like, it's like God was teaching me like how to soul in, in this dream. And he was telling me that in order to win someone's soul, to get, to get a, a convert, if you will, is that you have to get on the same page with him.You have to have a common ground, not show up, you know, knock on their door and say, I'm right, you're wrong. Change. You have to get on the same level. And so that word was coming in between my ability to do it. I've seen so many people be just devastated by that word and so I thought maybe I can package this differently.What you're saying, the institutions hurt people, not necessarily the word. You know, my call to action is for people to leave the church. If you've been hurt, then to sit [00:43:00] there thinking you have to, you can still have a perfectly good relationship with God. I still choose Christ. And so, so since we're, since we've probably got like, maybe like 10 minutes left I'm not gonna go through each chapter title or we're, we're not gonna go through each chapter and discuss it.What I'm curious is what part stood out to Y.Pat: For me, you know, you went pretty deep into Christianity and. At some point I actually did not see Catholicism in it, which is just weird. I'm reading stuff that I never touched upon, never saw, did not engage while I was in the Catholic religion. So yours was deep and very profound in that Christianity to me sounds like it's supposed to be.The whole mantle was supposed to be, [00:44:00] you know, trying to, or maybe the umbrella was supposed to go up underneath, but Catholicism fell along the wayside. It, it didn't get covered up in Christianity cause we are not as engaged as a Christian is. I don't know if that makes sense. Learn from being from young, we were told a Catholic is a solely of Christ, the believers in Christ.But we do not delve into the depth that you delve, delve in the book. So it, it was like eye-opening for me. You know, all the different verses and chapters that you relate you relating to when you are engaging in the book that I didn't even know about. So, you know, it's like maybe I should change religions, you know, go to a different team.[00:45:00]Maybe if I had done, if I had that opportunity younger, who knows where I might have been now, you know, who knows? If I had taken a different path, would I have actually engaged more? Would I have been, you know, more interested in it? I was, I, I'm just at the path where I'm not. So, you know, the, the part of the book that I liked is when you say we needed, I needed for God to, I needed to invite God. I needed to embrace them. I needed to engage, I needed to emulate, and I needed to behave in a certain way. I never got that from my cathar teachings. I got nothing. I got emptiness. Just whatever was said passed down was whatever that person, you know, what their limitation on the religion was, is [00:46:00] what I was instructed.So if they have 4%, then now I might have one. Then I now have to pass on what little I have to a child and tell them, you've gotta believe whatever I just said, no, I couldn't even bring anything else to the table to say, well, this is the, the meaning of it, So that's what I kind of really liked about the book.Is that you really allowed me to, to delve into Christianity, which is not what the Catholic church allows. We call it something different. We used to call it we used to call people who call themselves Christians. We used to call them born again Christians. So it's like saying you won't really, it's like all money and new money.That's my best interpretation of what Catholics look at with Christians. We believe Christians who quote versus [00:47:00] as new money type of people who just came along to religion. And we think we are the whole star world of religion that we hold the vault of religion. So when you say you're Christian, we tend to want to look at you differently, if that makes sense.That's the identity you were talking about.De'Vannon: Right. It, it makes, it makes perfect sense identity and is everything. John, what? What, what was your favorite?John: I'm, I'm still so hung up on this idea of, of that I was already harping on. So I'm trying to get my brain into a different gear but You know, frankly, like, it was kind of hard for me to read because it just, it it's Christianity. I didn't see any, anything particularly new for me because, you know, the, the, I mean, and I'm not, and I'm glad the information's out there.What I, I will say this. I like how succinct you were [00:48:00] able to cover a lot of ground very quickly, which is hard to do with this stuff. The only problem is I feel like there's information that I don't agree with that I think is, is just Christian rhetoric and Christian versions of things. The biggest one in that department was just when you were talking about sin. I, that I, I don't, I don't think, I don't think we agree on how sin works at all. Or even its existence in, in, in the same way. But but yeah, I mean, again, I I thought you did a good summation of Christianity. The, the thing that I want to just circle back to very quickly is I actually have kind of a problem with sneaking Christianity into the conversation under other guys's repackaging it.This has been done for years. The way when the, the first and second great awakening in the us, the way the gospel was presented was very different than how the gospel was presented. Now, it was very different than how the gospel was presented [00:49:00] in the first 500 years of Christianity. Catholics have a very different version of presenting the gospel than Protestants do.Presenting the the shtick in different ways, even if the way sounds really nice, does not give me comfort. It makes me scared that you're, that there's, there's an ulterior motive. Now, I know you and I know your motives are pure . I know it's because you have a heart for people who are hurting, and especially people who have been hurt by the church.And so to me, I I, I see that in the writing as well. Like this is communicating to them. I just still see that fundamental problem of this still serves a system that is bigger than Davanon's love for people. This is still the same rhetoric that's in church. It's just packaged slightly differently. And so that, that's, that's kind of my final critique is, is I, I can read this as a man identifying.[00:50:00] His faith in very clear less Christianese type terms. But it is still the Christian faith through and through.De'Vannon: Well, I mean, that was pretty much the point. I wasn't trying to rewrite the Bible. I wasn't trying to rewrite Christianity. The point was to say it succinctly in a different way because you know, sometimes you know, two different people can tell the one individual the same thing. That one individual might understand the first person, but they might get it from the second person just because it was explained differently.Right. And so then that's, that's all it was. That's why it's a free book. You can just download it for free. , you know, you know.Pat: No, but can I say something? Just back to John. I completely see what you're saying, but for me, reading the book, this was, as they say, the introduction to Christianity For a Catholic being, I always keep saying I identify as being Roman Catholic. Cause I'm born there, grew up in it, we'll [00:51:00]die in it, but never had this level of interpretation into Christianity.I don't read much, I don't engage much because I was never really interested. So Duran's book was actually a glimmer into Christianity. , as he said, his interpretation, it could reach different people. So as you said, you could repackage it, but for me this is like nearly like the first packaging of Christianity.So for me there's an absolute divide between Christianity and Cath and being Catholic. We are so different. We are a completely different beast, as they would say. As you know, you would say Muslim is as Buddhists, Catholics, we believe we are the end all and the we are the be all in the end all. [00:52:00] So to now realize there is Christianity, it is nearly for somebody my age, it's nearly like mind blowing.Would I continue along the path of trying to find out more about Christianity? I don't know. but you know, I, I, I love what you said and I also like the book The violin is opening up so you it for you, it's repackaging, but for me it's like the first, it's like the first step is the first step into real religion is to hear how everything evolves and interpretation is all about it.So as I said at the beginning, it has evolved and changed and changed and changed. And we don't know who has the real, real holy grail of the Bible. We don't know what was originally there. We have gotten [00:53:00] versions and descendants of this same book, but we could choose which one we want to go to, and that's what we've done over time.De'Vannon: thank you very much for that, Patrice. At the end of the day, I'm not trying to like take the place of God. I don't think any church should. My website doesn't with the lessons and the education we have on there. one of my greatest prayers is for God to reveal himself to people on an individual basis in a way that that individual person is going to know that it is God speaking to them.Like with the angels that come and talk to me with the dreams that I have and things like that. You know, it is, it is impossible for me to deny the existence of God. So I ask God to give people irrefutable proof of his existence apart from the Bibleand. John: Okay. I, I got one last thing I have to say to stay on brand So so my, so my whole thing, right? Like, I, I'm, I'm a host of a podcast called The Cults of Christianity. My whole life's work is to dissect well, it's started as a [00:54:00] dissecting Christianity. It's moved on to dissecting cults. It is, I, Patrice, I totally understand.Catholics do not encourage education. That's not their, their, their shtick. There are many. Christianity is a huge umbrella with many, there's very progressive Christians. There's very fundamentalist conservative Christians. There are there's Catholics, there's Eastern Orthodox, there's, there's offshoots left and right.Here's, here's the only warning I'll give. It is so easy to go from one cult to another. This is something that happens with a lot of people is because they've been given a, a cult mindset. A cult follower mindset. They realize that what they were in is a cult. For you, it might have been Catholicism. For someone else, it could be something completely different, and then they.Find another cult. Now, this doesn't always mean like a religious institution sometimes. This can be, you [00:55:00] know, a, a very toxic group that goes to a bar. This can be a, you know get caught up just in a different world. This can, this can look you know, in my opinion, a lot of people who leave Christianity join Colts online that just talk crap about Christianity all the time.And that's like where they find their community and then people take advantage of them by selling them books about how bad Christianity is. I've put in a lot of work to not be that kind of ex Christian and gone to therapy and talked about these things to make sure that I'm never a cult leader again. So the only warning I'll give. That yearning you were talking about earlier. It's totally human. It's a normal emotion. It is so amplified when you grow up in a cult that you have needs, that you have these needs. That's that to be saved. That that's the, that's the indoctrination. You have this need to be saved.So whatever you believe is your personal choice and you need freedom in that. And I appreciate Davanon's approach that he wants people to have that very [00:56:00] individualistic thing. The only thing I'll say is just no one's got all the answers. Don't believe anyone who says they do, especially Christians, because they've been lying longer than about anybody about a lot of things. And, and so that, that's just my cautionary tale of it's okay for personal discovery. I'm all for people figuring out their identity. Don't join colts. They, they will only do damage to you and the ones you.De'Vannon: Here, here we can, we can agree on that. So before, before we get in the wrap up, I'm just gonna read a couple of chapter titles just so people can get a feel for it. Again, like I said, this is a free book. It doesn't cost you anything at all. It's just at my website, sex Drugs and jesus.com. You can download it and just take it and do with it what you will. Let's see, like what is Christ? What is Christ like Living is one spiritual Christians versus the church. Can we get along? Things like that. And so basically this book takes you from like the history of Christianity through politics, through interpretations and [00:57:00] transliterations to, to where we are today.It's super short, it's super succinct, and also had to keep it short so that I could keep people's attentions span. So the last, the last thing that I wanted to bring up was this quote by Mahama Gandhi that I included in the book. And he says, I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.That kind of with a huge inspiration behind this. What do y'all think he.Pat: John, you go ahead.John: Well, Gandhi Was not a perfect person. To be very clear. There's, there's some really problematic things about Gandhi. But what I will say is this is, Frederick Douglass also said a quote very similar where he said I, I forget the exact words, but paraphrased, it was something to the effect of you know, I, I don't believe in American Christianity.That was, that was his thing. So I, I think what he meant was pretty self explanatory in the sense that Christ, the legend as I [00:58:00] interpret him, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't view what the gospel say about Jesus as historical fact necessarily, but as far as the, the mythology of who we understand the character of Jesus to be in the world what he represents is this idea of loving everyone.What he represents is this idea of, no matter how broken you are, you can be made whole again. and that aligned with Gandhi in the sense that he cared about broken people and people who were ca outcast, right? That is very different than how Christianity has ever been from 380 to now. And so I think, I think Gandhi spotted it, and I don't think it's very hard to spot that. When you're, when your figurehead of your religion is someone who is willing to die bec even when wrongfully convicted. When you have a character who [00:59:00] would talk to people that no one else was willing to talk to, according to Legend that is different than anyone who's identified as Christian, which I assume is why Devon wants to get away from that identity.somewhat, because you also ca you probably like the Christ. You like that narrative. , but it's not what you see. And so I think, I think that's what Gandhi was saying, and I, I don't think you have to look far to agree with.De'Vannon: Well said, sir.Pat: Yeah. . Yeah. I have nothingI have nothing. That was really well said. You know, as you see, he's just saying, I think what Gandhi's just trying to see is I like your figurehead. I just don't like your followers.De'Vannon: It's, it's all, it's all very interesting to me because, you know, Christ was not called a Christian, you know, this word came about, you know, after he was gone. And it came about because people needed to wait to divide the new followers from the old [01:00:00] followers essentially. And so, you know, I just, I just don't want people to get hung up on the word.I want people to have a meaningful relationship with God that. , you know, outside of the Bible, outside of a building, that is my call to act because when the pastor inevitably makes a mistake, a religion could fall. Then what are you gonna do? Like, identity has to be a relationship with Jesus, just with Jesus, with no one else around.I'll say this and I'll shut up. Like your most, your most, your most powerful and, and meaningful time with God is supposed to be when you're by yourself, not when you're in the middle of a room full of people.Pat: Yes. De'Vannon: And so Pat: And I think that's, yeah, that's perfect.De'Vannon: and so with that. So with that, any last words y'all have for the world? Y'all can just say so and then I'll intro y'all out.Pat: Well, I just like what, what John said at the end about community in [01:01:00] that instead of moving from the Catholic church into something, it's like you're moving and just having different bed partners. So you just go from one to the next to the next. So that's why I actually have not sought out any other religion.I just kind of stopped seeking and started enjoying life. And wherever it takes me, it's where I go, you know, love, laughter, life, that's all it's supposed to be. I can't get hung up about, you know, religion, race, age, you know, medical conditions. I just, I'm just not there. I'm just not there. So if I need to sit in the middle of a room by myself and just thank God for something, I don't have to feel ashamed.I don't have to go into a church and, you know, say, say everything to the mountain tops. No. [01:02:00] It's now just about me and my thoughts. That's where my religions is stored. It's in my thoughts and what I do. So if I do something good, I feel good. If I've done something bad, I feel human. That's just where it is.So my community is just me.De'Vannon: You are where you are and that's okay.Pat: Yep. Yep.De'Vannon: What about you, Johnny?John: you can go to the to christianity.com and spend five. No, no. I, I wanna, I wanna tell people that that there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to hold on to what you have believed. There's nothing wrong with wanting to search for a new belief, and we all have beliefs. The only thing that will always be my caution is are your beliefs truly your own? And investigate the hell out of that because there are so [01:03:00] many things that you might think are your own, that are not, that were given to you and probably forced into you. And so just be very wary of that as you're seeking whatever you're seek.Pat: Yeah, that's true. As as he said, be just cognizant of what you are introducing into you, into you, and don't let it be a part of what was taught to you. So it shouldn't be learned behavior, it should just be something that you really believe in. Most of religion is learned behavior.De'Vannon: Well, not anymore becausePat: IDe'Vannon: we, not anymore. Cause we kids are gonna be mindful about our religion, our approach to spirituality, and everything else that we do. We're gonna know why we believe, what we believe. That is what it comes down to.Pat: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: All right. Like, so, like, like John was saying, y'all, his, his podcast is the Cult of Christianity and the website is the cult of christianity.com.That's gonna [01:04:00] go in the show notes along with John's Link Tree. So and what can I say? Thank y'all for spending a whole hour of your life with me that I know that you can't get back. Too bad we didn't get to talk about Tyler Perry, but we might just have to do this again.Pat: yes. I would love that.De'Vannon: Thinking Bye everyone.Pat: Okay. Bye. Nice meeting you, John. Bye gra. Talk to you soon. Okay, bye.De'Vannon: Class dismissed.Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs in jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at Davanon Sex Drugs and jesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is Davanon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is [01:05:00] gonna be all right.  

De'Vannon, Drapps and I talked last June for #pride but the interview never made the monthDe's story is too great to miss so I saved it up and here we are with worldpride and this conversation is still so rich and so relevant. De'Vannon grew up in the South of the USA in a faith based home and community and has seen his own trials and tribulations, literally.He's been in Lakewood Church serving under Joel Osteen, he's been in prison, and now he's just into podcasts and being his own pastor.Join us for an #LGBT special event with De's ideas on what it means to be a Black gay Christian man living in Louisiana and loving life! Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

INTRODUCTION: Deeon C. Brown is the host of the Man Versus Brand Podcast plus he is a life as well as a business coach. Deeon's work explores the intersectionality between brand and the human experience, as such a crossroad is what put Deeon on the path that he so graciously glides down today.  DEEON'S BIO:  Deeon Brown is a business coach and veteran at creating and growing highly profitable business models, managing full spectrum creative programs and developing highly collaborative teams. Deeon is the owner of Project Big Brand, a company that creates, deconstructs or repairs business programs. Deeon Brown is a media contributor and launched his podcast, Man Versus Brand to analyze the intersectionality between brand and human experience. Deeon is based in Manhattan and sees the world as his place of business.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Surviving The Death Of Both Parents As A Child·      Growing Up In East New York·      Violence Over Brands·      Community As It Relates To Brands·      Identity Derived From Brands·      HIV/AIDS Impact On Non-Queer People·      Dealing With Business Loss·      Navigating The Fog Of Grief CONNECT WITH DEEON: Website: https://manversusbrand.comWebsite: https://deeonbrown.comWebsite: https://projectbigbrand.com  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Deeon C. Brown[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Ion Brown is the host of the Man versus Brand podcast. Plus, he is a life as well as a business coach. All Dion's work explores the intersectionality between brand and the human experience. As such a crossroads is what put Dion on the very path. That he is on today, which he so graciously glides down.Join us y'all as we talk about how Dion survived the death of both of his [00:01:00] parents at a very young age, how he grew up in East New York, and how he witnessed the violence of a brands and how that inspired him to become the entrepreneur and the businessman that he is today. Dion helps people. Deion helps businesses and everything in between.Hello, hello, hello everyone. I'm wishing you all a wonderful life, a wonderful existence, wonderful spirits, wonderful energy, wonderful angels, wonderful loved ones who have gone before hanging around you and bringing you all the juicy and bubbl delicious things that make you feel good and comfortable and cozy.My name is Devon. I'm the host of the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast, and I'm here for my homeboy, Dion Brown, who is the host of the Man Versus Brand Podcast. We're gonna be talking to [00:02:00]y'all about grief and life, and loss and love, and tribe and victory and success, and really bring it full circle for you today.Dion, how are you? Deeon: I am good, man. Thank you dev and for having me on your podcast. Anyone that is watching or listening to the sound of my voice, I hope that you have blessings and balance in your life. I hope that whatever you are experiencing right now is happening for your benefit and I am really, really authentically excited to be on this podcast.So thank you for having me. De'Vannon: Hell fucks. Yeah. So I'm gonna read a little bit of snippets from your biography because your biography is so immense, you know, usually I can do like a, you know, a, a summation or a run through, but you've got a lot going on. So it says, you know, Dion, which I'm here for the having a lot going on cause I'm the same way.It says Dion Brown. He's a business [00:03:00] coach and veteran at creating, growing, wait, creating and growing highly profitable business models, managing full spectrum creative programs, and developing highly collaborative teams. John is, Dion is the owner of Project Big Brand. He's gonna tell us what that is in his own words, but it is the company that creates deconstructs of repairs, business programs.Deion Brown is a media contributor and launched his podcast, man versus brand that analyzed the intersectionality between brand and the humane experience. Dion is based in Manhattan where they got six inches of snow going on right now outside, and he sees the world at his place of bitterness. Yes, sir.So tell us what the the project big brand is. Deeon: Absolutely. So Project Big Brand was birthed like [00:04:00] all of my projects and endeavors out of a need. What I found was that a, a lot of my client, when I was in my. Sort of early thirties when, when I first got to New York were were businesses that functioned in meeting people, but that had, hadn't quite understood the landscape of digital.And so these were like restaurants, museums, galleries real estate. A lot of, of industries that really focused on person to person interaction that thrived in in-person experiences, but didn't really understand how to translate those experiences into profit online. So I started in, in an online space.What I realized though is that folks wasn't really about, [00:05:00] The fact that they didn't understand it, they just didn't have the right talented people on their teams to help initiate the right sort of campaigns and programming that would help them to be successful in that space. So what I ended up doing was being a bit of a recruiter, I would go to companies, figure out what they needed.and then find really talented people that were being underserved, whether they weren't getting traction on their resumes they didn't have the, the, the in the box credentials that seemed necessary for the role. And I would start being like a matchmaker. So I realized I had talent that really was underserved, matched with opportunities that were, that were also being underserved and.I figured out a way to create pairings. And so those pairings worked out with with domestic talent. So, like, you know, in the US maybe you live in San Francisco you, you, you won't consult or work for a company [00:06:00] in New York or maybe even San Francisco internationally. So there's some really great folks that are working in the international space that are, are not necessarily being tapped into domestically because, Of language barrier, time barrier, whatever.And so I just really create synergies. And it's, a lot of it is, is like therapy. It's, it's, a lot of it is coaching, A lot of it is like, what's your goals? What do you want, what do you feel is blocking you from getting there? Give me a missing person's report of someone who would make your life easier.What does an easy life look like for you? And that's just. on a personal level, it's also on an organizational level. Like what makes your organization move easily? What makes your organization happy? What adds to the culture of your organization so that the people that make up that organization feel better about their lives at the end of the day?And so I spend a lot of time working with people a lot of time. B being the bridge in communication and strategy [00:07:00] and systems and tools and and coaching a lot. And, and I. So y'all, De'Vannon: y'all might be wondering what the fact does all this business talk have to do with taboo topics and troubled times?Is it because, because Dionne's story is rooted, you know, in, in grief, you know, and in and in. So in pain and. . And like, like I was saying when I was reading as a bio, the, the intersectionality between like, you know, business and the human experience is very, very intriguing to me. And I've never heard it said that way, you know, or demonstrate it that way.And so before, before we, before we get, you know, more onto like the business aspect of it and everything like that, I want you to to tell us, you know, w like, like in your youth, you know, what happened to set you [00:08:00] on this course? When I was researching you on one line that I pulled, that I'm gonna read was about, you said like from about age nine you used every resource that you could define to connect and buy these brands, and you did a lot of chores and you traded everything that you could find and you hustled.So, So we have before this, you know, Dionne Brown who seems to be doing his thing, but it wasn't that way. So the taboo in this episode is the struggle that it took to get him here. And so, and that, and that's, and that's really, really, really what I want to focus on. So tell me about your childhood growing up in New York.Deeon: So I'm gonna bridge for you guys. A story. And, and I think in the story you'll understand kind of where I am, not only in my personal life, but also in the business life and, and how there is that intersectionality between brand and human experience. So I grew up in East New York and Brooklyn, east New [00:09:00] York and Brooklyn is very similar to like the Comptons of the world where, you know, for a very long time.It was un gentrified. It appeared super dangerous. It was a community that was brought together by like economic conditions, right? Like we, we just could only afford, but so much, and until we lived together, even to this day, very much, very many parts of the place that I grew up in isn't, it isn't quite gentrified yet.It, it doesn't have all of the bells and whistles. The traditional New York setting if you wanna look it up again, it's called East New York and Brooklyn. So, grew up in East New York and Brooklyn and I grew up in the, the, I'm an eighties baby. I grew up predominantly in the nineties and. During that time, it was like the brand explosion, right?You had like Nintendo, Sega, Timberland, the Jordan brand, N B A, you [00:10:00] had Nike, you had all of these kind of mega brands, really having a one-directional conversation with. Right. They were just like, if you want some validity in your life, if you want to feel substantial in your life, then here is something that you can use to represent that validity.And, and I think it's arguable in some circles, whether that was done purposefully on the part of the brand or if it was just the way that that particular kind of consumer. Absorb that information. The reality is, is that's what happened, right? So that meant that folks were killing for Timbalands, folks were robbing folks for eight ball jackets.Kids were fighting over Nintendo systems. It was violent and it was violent over brands. Wasn't violent over drugs, wasn't violent over turf or [00:11:00] territory, it was violent over brands. And so when I grew up, I wanted to understand where all that violence came from. Now add to that, both my parents before I was the age of 12, had both passed.And both of them had passed in some sort of cultural. problem. I, I'm gonna talk about my, both my parents, but very briefly, I'm not gonna get into the nuts and bolts of it because I think that it could be a trigger warning and not only triggering for the group, but it could also slightly be triggering for me.So this is what I will tell you about my parents is that my mother was shot in the back as an E M T worker and thrown into a bay in New York where her body was found later on. My dad. died of H I V in the nineties where there wasn't treatment for it. He was a heterosexual male, but [00:12:00]regardless that no one thought that heterosexual males would have H I v at that time, I think the only real popular figure was like the guy from la, I can't remember his name right now, God forbid, forgive me, but there was just like one person and maybe Magic Johnson, maybe Magic Johnson, and like one other rapper that everyone knew about that had it, that were considered heterosexual males.And so it was truly unknown that this could really happen to a person who didn't identify in the spectrum of queerness, right? And. . Not only was I witnessing violence on a local level, like around me career around these brands, but I was also experiencing it in my own personal life. So not only was I interested.In a curious way as to why people perpetuated this violence. But that violence had hit home for me. Now, not in the same way. It wasn't related to [00:13:00] brands, but it was, it was, it was violence for violence sake. And so I wanted to understand what drove people to violence, but specifically in this social brand.and, and that informed a lot of my life. Like I I, I focused on out of home or advertisements in brands. I focused on analytics and understanding what drove people to make brand decisions. I focused on focus groups and, and brand opinion of different segments of folks. Once I kind of got to the point where I was.Leader in understanding brands, I then repurposed myself into ensuring that brands gave back to neighborhoods that were negatively inflect in, in negatively impacted by their influence. Right? So I had Adidas coming to, not just to the Upper West side, but also to the deep parts of Brooklyn in order to do giveaways and.A lot of [00:14:00] that has been what's informed my career path because I wanted to make sure that I met my own understanding of brands with this childhood that was very much influenced by the brands and how they created for good and for bad an influence on the people who wanted to have a life associated.De'Vannon: Well, my deepest apologies for, for my gosh, for having lost both your parents in such a, you know, in such a way. But you know, thank God you are still here and you know, you're a living testimony to help millions of people out there. And sowould you say, did you say you researched brands and everything like that? . And you, I know you said that the, the turf wars and everything like that was necessarily over drugs, but do you feel like people can become addicted to brands and it becomes type [00:15:00] of a drug? Deeon: Absolutely. I absolutely think so. I think that brands can be a physical representation of.A person struggle to overcome identity issues, to overcome not fitting into to social normative behavior or structures. I think that brands can allow people who feel like they. Are lonely or that don't have community, to find community by creating these very clear and obvious physical representations.And I don't think it's just like the, the high-end brands, I think we tend to think of like the Gucci, the Louise, the, the jewelry, right. But I mean, you can even look at things like Comic-Con or cosplay where people are very. Putting [00:16:00] on the brand of an anime in order to, to align themselves to another group of people, usually not only because they love that brand, but because they're looking for community in, in a very physical, upfront, clear, transparent way.And so I think that that folks can be very much addicted to an association with brands like people can become addicted to To surgeries, to plastic surgeries, to this sort of outward performative individuality that also hearkens to trying to find community. Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: community touches on, on all of us and, you know, we, we are so tribal, you know, by nature and, you know, that is just how God designed us and we.You are always gonna clinging ourselves at be it happy hour, be it the soccer league, be it whatever, you know, we're [00:17:00] not meant to exist independently, you know, otherwise God would've made us that way. So it's about owning that, you know, and acknowledging that, and paying attention to when you're going overboard with it, when you're not doing enough with it.You know, when I got kicked out of Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, you know, I, I became a drug dealer and I didn't realize that I was replacing my church community with a street life. And I was like trying to patch a wound. I didn't realize that all I did was go and try to seek the same thing somewhere else.And you know, my mind wasn't operating that way. But let me see. I had like a super great. Like, like I was telling you before we got on this show, you know, I've been going through this breakup, like I was with that, with that guy for four and a half years. And we're gonna talk about that, that episode coming up here in a couple of minutes.One of the key things that, that, that, that woman said was that when you're dealing through like that sort of [00:18:00] grief, you just have like a numbness and it's like you can't get your thoughts straight , you know, that, you know, that is what I'm going, you know, through, right through right now. But let me just Circle Cir circle back to here.I want to talk about, I wanna talk about your logo. I have a fascination with like logos and book covers and artwork and things like that because I know it says you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover, but damn it. Why the fuck else are we making the cover? It's not to be judged. You need to get your attention somehow.So yours is super interesting. I see. It's like you're sitting there in your face list, which is a very, very like American Horror Story. Ah, my Deeon: man versus brand cover art. Got it. Ok. Now ok. We're, we're there. Ok. De'Vannon: So in, in either hand you have two different facial expressions going on. Yep. On the light, there's like a light.Ish, blue, kind of surreal. And if I wanna get all gay about it. But then on the other side, , [00:19:00] it is like slightly more demure. That face doesn't look as happy. Your shirt, it's a red shirt that says neck, next level. Mm-hmm. . You have various words in the back on the light side where the sun is. It says like fearless, innovative, creative, un, you know, un.And then on the other side where the thunder clouds are, is like failure and genius. you have like fake it till you break it, but the F is slashed off, which is, turns it into, make it till you break it. But the R in break is flipped upside down and also reversed. Yes. Now you know you gonna have a logo like this and I'm gonna need you to break it down.Cause this clearly you trying to make a statement. Absolutely, Deeon: absolutely . So, so thank you for bringing that up. Alright, so the, the logo is for the podcast. It's the cover art that I use and it, it speaks to this phenomenon that I experienced. During Covid, [00:20:00] right? And, and, and here's what happened.So I was leading a real estate firm that had sales in the hundreds of millions. I had you know, hu hundreds of agents that reported to me. And during Covid, like I didn't have a lot of answers. I didn't have a lot of answers. But not only did I not have a lot of answers, I didn't have a lot of answers for hundreds of agents that were trying to conduct business because.Weirdly in Covid, a lot of people moved. They moved from apartments into homes. They moved from smaller apartments into larger apartments. A lot of people went in backyard space. It was a lot going on. And New York is a competitive market already, so you could already imagine like just what was going on when people wanted to move.And what I realized is, is that I didn't have a safe space to say I didn't know. I just had to come up with. , and I'm fine with that because I think I'm inherently one of those people that is curious [00:21:00] by nature. I, I, I grew up at eight trying to figure out stuff and figure out life and figure out the, the meaning behind death and all that stuff, right?And so now I'm like pretty good at problem solving. . And I have a great group of people around me, but, but what it also meant is that I, I then went to my community, right? Speaking of community and asked them like, yep, I'm going through this, is anybody else? And everybody was like, yeah, like, this is weird.I, I don't have answers and people want me to, or, or I'm, I'm going to zoom funerals and I don't know what to say, or I'm. and, and they want me to come to work and I don't know how to advocate for myself. And so I wanted to create a safe space for people who didn't have all the answers, to not have the answers, and to listen to people who also didn't have the answers.Not have the answers right. I wanted a space where like, [00:22:00] not having the answer was absolutely fine. . And, but what that meant is that I also had to realize that we're all wearing these hats, these masks, right? Like Davanon Davanon is a bartender. He is an advocacy for for demystifying. Prejudices.He is a online store owner. He is a podcast creator. He is a book owner, a book author, right? And, and all of those things are important, and all of them come with their own adjectives, their own thoughts, their own feelings. . And at any given point you get to decide which one of those masks you wanna wear and occupy which identity you wanna occupy.And so in that, that thing, in that artwork, the, the smiling side, which has the sun and the [00:23:00]raining side, which has the sort of more dir face, they're not all positive and negative adjectives, right? You can be unhappy and genius, right? You can be you can be effective and lost. Right? And that's that sort of duality of not having all the answers is.It's okay not to be one thing. You don't have to always be positive. Just like you don't have to always be negative, you don't have to always be happy and you don't have to always be sad. You can decide to embrace the part of the journey, the part of the process that you're in. If you're grieving, you have the right to grieve.You have the right to grieve deeply. You have the right to grieve loudly, and no one can tell you. What is grieve worthy or not like? No one can say like, well, you, that you are only in that thing for a year. It's fine. You should, you'll be over it in a month. Or, you know, that dog wasn't, isn't a person, [00:24:00] so why are you so upset about it?Right? You get to be who you are. And so the artwork is about creating a safe space for people to be multiple things where the next level is on a shirt. It's not visually shown where, where it sometimes. You're gonna fake it till you make it. Sometimes you're gonna break it till you make it. Sometimes you'll never actually make it.That's okay too, right? Sometimes you'll make it in certain things and fake it in certain things and break it in certain things, and that's okay too, right? Where, where sometimes you're sitting in the middle of. Of rain and sun, and that's okay too. And so really all of it is about just being okay with where we are as people and being okay with where we are as brands because we get to be both a person, a human, and we get to be an author, a business owner.We get to be all of those things at once. And none of those things [00:25:00] should suffer because we wanna live completely in, in the truth of them. De'Vannon: That's a damn good explanation. , I think you, I asked you for a breakdown and you broke it the fuck down. Like James Brown, you, you, your last name Brown are you can to the Godfather soul.Oh, I got a Deeon: little, got a little dance. Maybe. Possibly. De'Vannon: You've earned your, your, your purple. Well he probably every color you your, your fucking purple cape today. Whoa. I know what I was gonna say before my mind lost this train of thought. And look, I don't mind. You know, during these episodes, I'm recording right now, you know, appearing all like.Scatterbrained and stuff like that in a week, because you know what I am right now, you know, my you know, my people out here in the world have seen me, you know, my strongest doing my best interviews, but I'm not gonna hide my weakness from anybody because that would be unrealistic. It would totally go against your logoYou know, you know, you know, this is, this is not my strongest time and I'm not complaining. [00:26:00] I'm just letting people know what's going on. You can probably tell and hear the difference in the way I'm conducting the interview, but like the dust from the ashes, I'm gonna rise that we gonna press forward.What I was, what I was gonna say when you were talking about the community aspect of the brands and you know, how we identify we needed for validation issues. This is part of the reason why I started my clothing line, my clothing store down under apparel, which specializes in lingerie's a very like sexual store.And people say like, we carry like plus size clothing. You know, it really, really does my heart, like, good to know that, that men and women who want to, who need like three XL lingerie or boxer briefs can come there and not feel judged. They can feel included, you know, and, and they can feel like them as a, you know, a plus size sexual being is a totally valid thing.You know, just for starters, I get all kinds of like messages from [00:27:00] people and people We have, like men's lace, lingerie, you know, there's a lot of, there's men who identify as straight enough who have like girlfriends and they like wear their, their, they, they would wear her lingerie because they like to cross dress or whatever.Yeah. But, you know, a man's body is completely different from a woman's body and so they really, really appreciate having. Lace, feminine lingerie, that's cut for the male physique, for instance. Yeah. You know, and so there's so much like love in like clothing, you know, it's not just clothes or it's not just a brand or whatever it might be.So, Deeon: so to add to that, right, I think that, . I, I, I, I appreciate first that you bring that up because I think that there is something to performative brand association and then something that tends to be more intimate, like let's say lingerie, right? And, and I think that that [00:28:00] oftentimes, right, the reason why we can't perform that sort of, those sort of associations, those sort of identities is because they don't fit into the tructure.Norm of what society thinks someone should wear. Right. Blue wasn't always the color associated with boys, and pink wasn't always the color associated with girls, right? There was a time period where boys and girls just due to economics would wear the same clothes. Like if you look at some of our old presidents, they're baby pictures.They're definitely in lace and freely clothes. They're definitely in what would be consider. Female attire. Right? And so it's not until society had determined that boy boys looked better in in blue and girls looked better in pink. A lot of it had to do with, and, and sorry for the folks who didn't know this, a lot of this had to do with eye color.Well, I haven't had to do with eye [00:29:00] color. What looked better with blue eyes, what looked better with brown eyes, a lot of it didn't have very much to do with gender. A lot of it had to do with babies and eye colors and hair colors and these sorts of features that typically didn't include non blonde-haired blue.People. So even in our understanding of color association there. Is some sense that, that you may actually fit outside of what the norm is. I know I don't look good in light blue. I look good in reds. All right. And so if I'm, if you're putting me in light blue, it may not work out for me. I look better in reds because that's due to my skin tone and my eye color, right?So there are certain things that work better in certain spaces. And with that conversation around identity, I think there's also one around. The [00:30:00] feel of a person, right? Like not all men are meant to to textually like hard, harsh fabrics. Like there are some people that lace feels natural. and individual to them, and in a way we rob people of their humanity by stating that you fit this gender identity.Therefore you should only like these type of fabrics, these type of colors, this sort of aesthetic. God bless all of the partners of the world that allow their partners to live fully. and honestly in what brings that person joy. Because to be brought joy should never create consequence that is negative.Right? Also I think that [00:31:00] to your conversation around plus size bodies or when they're negatively called fat bodies. And I'm gonna extend that conversation to those in wheelchairs. Those that may have some level of a syndrome those that may be differently abled, blind deaf. Right. I think they're oftentimes robbed of a level of intimacy that moves into romantic and or sexual.I think that people rob them of their, of the idea that these people should also exist as sexual beings. And so creating a safe space of body representation, I believe also gives credence to another person who may not experience. Being outside of a body norm who may exist in an ability norm or outside of an ability norm, right.To also say, [00:32:00] Hey, I am, I am allowed to give myself the right. To feel sexual, to feel desirable, to feel good about who I am, right? And so I do think that brands oftentimes spin their money, their marketing, in order to put you into a performance space to outwardly make you shout, Hey, I haven't associated with this brand.Hey, I look like this. Hey, these are my ideals. This is who I find community. But I do think that there are also brands that allow you to be an individual and to be intimate, and those tend to not be performative in the same way for the mass majority of people. Yes, there's gonna be guys that are wearing lace and putting in on social media.Right, but, but the majority of the median of those people are, are, it's something that is a one-on-one with them. It's something that makes them feel good. It's something that allows them to identify with themselves and not with a community. And I think that's the difference. Intimate brands allow you to [00:33:00] connect to yourself while performative brands allow you to connect to others.And so when you're connecting to yourself and to the desires of yourself and to what makes you feel good as a person. It allows you to be secure and settled in yourself and happy in yourself. It doesn't matter if another person ever sees that you're associated with that brand, cuz it's actually about you and your relationship one-on-one with yourself.Where a lot of performative brands, which tends to be a bit more dangerous, their, their, their job is to. To create a space for you to find community with a bunch of other people and whether you can afford it, whether you should have it, whether this thing is, is positively influencing and adding to your life.It doesn't matter to the brand because the brand is really about you showing others that you have this level of association.Woo. That was a lot. That's right there. That , that was a lot. That said a lot. Sorry guys, if I'm rambling my bad man. This is his podcast guys. He does an amazing job. But you know, I figured [00:34:00] if, if, if, if, if I can shed light, if that helps someone to, that is questioning their own sense of desirability, their own sense of fitting into a social norm, man, listen, do what, what feels right for you?and I promise you, the universe will allow you to be happy for respecting and representing your own wants. If those wants, in fact, don't harm anyone. And if those wants, in fact, brings you happiness, so go for it. De'Vannon: What, you're also speaking to Mr. Preacher because you, you, you, you could have been a preacher if you wanted toyou, you're speaking to the hypnosis effect and the subconscious manipulation that can happen with marketing and branding and stuff like that. And and I always want people to be aware of why they think what they think, why they're attracted to what they're attracted to, why they go about the business of doing what they're doing.And so there's nothing wrong if you want a roag, Gucci, however, if you judge others [00:35:00] for not having Gucci or if something were to happen to you and you lost your job and you could no longer afford Gucci, you should not think less of yourself or anyone else. So it's, it's a balancing act and being not too much nor too little, but being.so that it's not inherently evil, but it's also not necessarily inherently good either because it's everywhere that when you're constantly hit with marketing and it's on social media and all every damn body, you know, the celebrities and everything that is, that is leaving an impression upon you and you really, really, really ought to be careful not to get caught up in it.So, Deeon: so Devan, can I do a quick book drop for, for folks? I'm, I'm writing a book currently. Can I give a quick book drop that feels right in this moment? Do I have your permission? . All right, so I'm, I'm currently writing a book called Life Dysmorphia. Trademark is being filed No, no, I'm just kidding. I already filed, it's called Life Dysmorphia.So we understand what body dysmorphia is, where we see our bodies differently than maybe others do. And we have a negative take on our [00:36:00] bodies and, and, and in, in relationship to other bodies that we see that may not necessarily represent what the mass majority views as our. . Well, I believe that there's also life dysmorphia.I think that we can sometimes judge our lives in different spaces in social intellectual physical spiritual spaces and look at others and go, why don't I? Why don't I have that? Why am I not like that? I don't have this, and everyone else does. And I think that a lot of what we're talking about speaks to this idea of life dysmorphia where we, we don't see ourselves clearly because we don't see ourselves clearly.We start to make purchasing decisions, life decisions. From a place of trauma and pain and woundedness as opposed to being empowered and seeing clearly and representing who we are fully. As I'm working on this book it's being co-authored with my aunt, who is like my spiritual guru. [00:37:00] And and it's something that I'm really, really excited for.So life dysmorphia don't know when this episode's gonna drop, but guys, I promise you this book is coming out and I'm really, really excited about it. It breaks down things that you'll say to yourself in a mirror. A lot of it's is, is, is framework on a mirror conversation. That you have with yourself and that mirror talking back to you as it actually sees you and not how you see yourself.And so it's based on mirror conversation. So if you've ever looked in a mirror and said, I'm not worthy enough, I'm not attractive enough. , I'm not spiritual enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not a good enough parent. I'm not a good enough friend. Right? Then, then, then this book is gonna be a way of the mirror and your future self, or your whole self talking back to you and giving you not necessarily an answer that you are or you aren't, but giving your perspective to think about it differently so that you can be happier and more set in your life.And, and, and work toward the healing that it would take for you to [00:38:00] embody the things that you ultimately wanna be. So, shameless book plug. It's coming out soon, guys, coming out soon. De'Vannon: And, and just like the saying, I speak massive healing, healing, healing over all of you nations because my God, do we need it?And so we will be behalf of the, to, to get a copy of that book and have you back on to discuss it because, you know, I'm a book nerd and so. Speaking of the intersectionality in between brand and the human experience, there was a show from your podcast. So so as Dion has mentioned, he has a podcast man versus brand Alo, along with his entrepreneurial work that he does at all the businesses and things like that.And now he's about to be an author, you know, he's wearing all the faces and all the hats. So from his podcast, there was this one show entitled What We Can Gain After Experiencing. And this was conducted with a certified grief coach whose name is Nazarene Ahed, [00:39:00] who is a professional certified coach.That's important. Not every coach out there is certified. There are certain certifications you can get. Not saying the non-certified ones are terrible. They're saying that that's a, that's something I appreciate seeing. And so in this episode, Dionne talks about. This, this company that, that, that, that, that, that you kept referring to as fledgling.It was suffering and striving. And you came on board and you eventually, you got promoted to partner and you really helped to take them from the shadows into the light. There was an online based business and something happened where you no longer had it, and you went through grief to the point that you had to go to therapy.Now, I never heard anybody talk, you, you, you talking about grief. Somebody didn't died, you done broke. The dog's dead, you know, the house and burn down, you know, or something like that. But this is, this is like a tie-in to a [00:40:00] business and branding and grief to the point that you had to see a therapist and so, and you're not the only one.There's many people, you know, you hear about successful business people losing a business deal and hurting themselves, killing themselves. People take financial and business laws hard, you know, speak to us about, . Deeon: So I think that oftentimes when we grieve, we, we grieve over the future of possibilities, right?And, and the future of possibilities might be, I, I, my grandmother should have been there for my wedding. My dog will no longer greet me when I walk into the door. The business that I had worked hard for is no longer operat. and I think that we, we are, we are, we have been socialized to believe that there's this hierarchy to grief, that grief is [00:41:00] supposed to be structured, and there are certain things that are at the top of the grief.Triangle pyramid, right? Like death of a parent or a child, and then it moves into death of a a partner, then death of a sibling, then death of a friend. We, even social has to believe that death has this hierarchy of influence in our life. And also that there is a finite time in which you should grieve, and then at some point you're supposed to get over it.What I realized though is that so the. personally, right? So I can only speak personally guys. The loss of my parents early on created in me this very deep wound of abandonment and loss, right? And so for me, things that people would otherwise find traumatic, I tend not to, right? So I don't know. I get, I'm in, [00:42:00] involved in a car accident.I'm, I'm okay medical emergency, I'm okay. Things that people would be like, wow, you know, it takes a strong person to experience that typically. Okay. If I experienced this sense of loss, it triggers in me a version of myself that is now eight years old and powerless to do anything. And so for me, the need for therapy was representational.I, I, I didn't really need to solve the fact that this company went under, I needed to solve the fact that lost hit me so deeply that it was paralyzing. To the other things that I needed to accomplish in order to move forward. And it's something I still deal with. Like I still deal with laws very tough.I have a tough time with laws. I still deal with life occurrences where things like that happen and I take it very [00:43:00] much to heart. I have over empathetic feelings about people who experience loss. And so I still see the remnants of it. I just think that I've now have the tools and the skills in order to understand why I'm experiencing these feelings, what these feelings are rooted in, and, and understand that that even though the feelings.Could feel deep and they could feel overwhelming. It could feel that I'm in this endless ocean of pain, of loss, that all I have to do is wade until I see a direction and then I can swim. The other part of me thought it was either drown or. Right. What therapy taught me is that you actually have the option to wait to just tread water and to just look around and get some assessment of where you are and why you were there, and then [00:44:00] move when you feel led to move, because there's in fact a clear direction for you to move in and that clear direction.May be a passage of time. It may be a circumstance that occurred. It may be a revelatory moment or dream. I don't know what that looks like for any individual person, but there's a moment where, , there is something beyond the fog of pain and trauma and misery and whatever that thing is, you can decide to move in that direction, or you can decide to tread more to war water and wait until you see another direction that may be more suited to you.The point is, is that you don't have to drown or swim, and so whatever that lesson looks, , whether it's dropping outta college, whether it's losing your job, a divorce, a breakup, a loss, right? It's important that you [00:45:00] as the listener, as a person experiencing it as a person who's experiencing it in relationship to someone that you know or love.That you acknowledge that not only could you be one experiencing the pain of the very circumstance that you're going through, but you could also be experiencing a remnant of a deeper, more rooted pain that this brings up for you, that this conjures for you. And so not only are you dealing with the circumstance you are today, but you are also dealing with.The accumulation of other circumstances that you either did or did not deal with that feel, that emotionally feel similar to this, right? Because our brain is nothing but chemistry and processing of emotion. That's all we have. Memory is emotion. Brain thought is emotion, right? Do do, is it important for me?Study and learn, or is it not? And what, what motions are, am I applying that to right? Do I feel happy when I'm successful? Do I not feel happy [00:46:00] when I'm successful? Those things start to drive the way that our brain processes information. Our brain also, in order to allow us to move forward in life, pushes things into our subconscious mind so that everything that ever happened to us as traumatic isn't brought up every day.Could you imagine demanding waking up every day and remembering every traumatic thing that happened to you all the time? If your brain processed that way, how little you would actually get done in your life, right? And so sometimes when we talk about triggering, we're talking. Our brain reaching into our subconscious mind and pulling up that circumstance that has been hiding from us and going, you remember when that happened?You remember that ? Do you remember that? That was crazy. Right? And our brain becomes fixated on that moment, right? That's a trigger. And so sometimes I think that we, we, we, we do ourselves in disservice by by belittling or reducing what's currently happening to us as if there weren't other things that happened to us.[00:47:00]The body remembers. The brain remembers, right? It remembers trauma, remembers joy, it remembers happiness and remembers pain. And so, one, I would just say, you know, guys, what I've learned is, is like, you know, don't discount the past. Don't discount the other things that you've been able to successfully bury.Whether it's by your own conscious thought or whether your brain just did it for you because it was kind and wanted you to move forward in. And the other is, is to, to not be afraid to, to not move in a direction, not to be afraid to just wait. It's not paralysis. . It's just waiting for a direction to be made clear to you.And it beats oftentimes swimming or drowning as an option because you're allowing yourself the space and breath to really find out what's next for you. And the world oftentimes wants you to move on because everyone else is experiencing trauma. You get to decide that you just [00:48:00] wanna sit for a. and figure out what's next for you and Wade in the grief and the feelings that you're experiencing until something else comes up that allows you to move forward, not move on, just move forward.De'Vannon: I feel like that, that, that sounds wise and, and smart, I feel like like's more easily said. You know, in a, in a lot of cases for a lot of people. Because you know, like in my case right now I have like a lot of like anxiety. Like I just want to go and do something. But what you're saying is the right thing to do is to, to wait till things settle.But you know, a lot of people don't do that. You know, we go get into, you know, bad habits, you know, be it drugs, alcohol, you know, dangerous sex or whatever the case may be, excessive spending, you know, whatever. . You know, the case may be we get into destructive behavior sometimes when we begin to act out, when [00:49:00] we, when we've lost something.Although the wise thing is to sit still , I don't know, a lot of yoga, a lot of meditating, a hell of a lot of praying, you know, and all of those things to help to settle your emotions because it's not good when we're dysfunctional still, when we're trying to function as we tend to make a lot of mistakes that way.Deeon: Well, I, I hear, I agree with you. Right. But I do, I will say this. That. Okay. So the first thing I think is, is that our brain, are wired to understand again, emotion, right? So, so, hey, if, if from 17 tovan into 24 drugs were the way that you found happiness, even if you've grown out of that, even if you heal from that, your brain still remembers that drugs is the way that you found happiness, that sex was a way that you found happiness.And so when you are now experiencing unhappy thoughts, your brain's gonna go, all right, let's get him happy again. Let's get him. . [00:50:00] Right? It may not be safe in a social context. It may not be safe in a rational context, but your brain is looking for when you felt safe, right? And so when you felt safe might have not been yoga.And so yoga don't seem like an option for you right now when you felt safe might have not been reading. So reading might not be right. The, I think the thing is when you're waiting is to understand, right? And to not move in a direction, but to just take an assessment of where you are, right? If, if. if engaging in sex is something that feels like a direction for you, all I'm saying is that your, your, your, your options aren't to swim directly to it or to sink because you're not doing it.It's just to wait and make a an informed decision for yourself, right? So if you know, hey, I'm, I'm likely to, I'm starting to get urges to engage in promiscuous sex. Well, what can you do to mitigate some of the [00:51:00] long-term consequences so that when you are out of this space that you're in, that you haven't caused more harm to yourself?Knowing that there will become a point where you'll not have these same. Feelings of need in the same way, right? And what can you do for that? Right? And so your waiting is you just deciding like, all right, well, you know, maybe I'm gonna only deal with this one person, or maybe I'm only gonna deal with this one setting, or maybe I'm gonna mix my drugs with my sex in this one particular, you know, way of expressing myself, right?And, and you may decide to go in that direction. I think the thing is, You just, it, it be, it can become dangerous. It can become dangerous to just move in a direction, thoughtlessly. And then when you are now resolved of the grief and the trauma that got you there to deal with the consequences of not thinking through the decisions you were making.Right. You don't wanna spend time and then wonder where your time had been [00:52:00] spent because you were just moving directionless through whatever you were going through. Sometimes you need to sit back and take an assessment of where you are, look at your life, look at what your driving factors are and decide whether you want to do them.Listen, I can't tell someone that drugs is not the way for them. Get through today in order to be a more successful them tomorrow. What I can say is that there's a higher probability that you will suffer longer term consequence and or addiction if you do so. If you're making that choice, sit for a second.Decide that that choice is something that you want to make, create clear boundaries for you to move in that direction and understand that there may come a time where that direction no longer serves you and, and you need to decide [00:53:00] what happens when it no longer serves you because you're in an emotional space, not necessarily a life space.De'Vannon: Well, I'm gonna take all of that damn good advice that you just dished out and you to try to corrall my ass and to keep me on like a good path and to keep me from making some of the bad decisions I've already started to make. So . Deeon: And we're allow bad decisions, you know what I mean? Like sometimes, sometimes in a world where like, , and I'll say this in like, I don't know, trigger warning or just, you know, whatever, warning, right?Like some if, if you're, if the, if, if in unhealthy, if leaning into an unhealthy coping mechanism, which could be drugs or it could be food or it could be, there's a term. It could be excessive spending, right? If, if leaning into it knowing that there is an out for you on the other side. . [00:54:00] If you're balancing that against harming yourself to the point that there isn't another side, right?Then lean into the unhealthy thing and then get support for that unhealthy thing and live another day, right? Like find your support, find your love, find your network, find your community. Right. That's first. That's the first thing we wanna do is find support, find love, find community, find positivity when that no longer works, the idea that you could lean into something as a temporary fix in order to, to alleviate the trauma of it so that you can get to a space where you can face it, and then eventually find community and find support and find love for it.That definitely. The rates of self-harm and suicide that we're seeing in the country today where folks feel like there is no out, [00:55:00] there is no other way. And so if someone said, I need to gamble for a couple days because I'm feeling these thoughts of self-harm, then gamble a couple days. Right. And I'm not saying it has to be that extreme.I'm just saying that, that we also have to give ourselves grace to be human, to be flaw. to have to, to, to have had developed negative habits that we sometimes wanna lean into. And that if the, if the alternative is I can't live, then find a way to live until you can find the support system to give you back the life that you.And a lot of people may take that and misconstrue it as me being like, do drugs or have promiscuous sex. That's not what I'm saying folks. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that in, in a world where you know it's drown or swim, I'm telling you to swim, [00:56:00] not drown until you find a support system that allows you to get to the destination you deserve to get to.De'Vannon: He's saying, choose the lesser of your evils and whatever it takes to keep your ass alive. Because as my favorite days, cause the song says, as long as you are breathing, you can start all over again. Deeon: Absolutely. Absolutely. De'Vannon: Okay. So that, that brings us to a close here. I'm gonna go over your contact information and then I'll give you the last word.Although you've been giving us good advice. I don't know if you know it, but you counseled me through this interview. I was interviewing you, but you were counseling me, you know, Send me the bill. I'll happily pay it. So let me see here. His podcast is called Man Versus Brand. His books are coming out.He'll be back on the show if he wants to, to talk about that. He has two websites. One is man versus [00:57:00] brand.com. The other one is dion brown.com. I do want you to tell us the difference in your outro that you're about to give us here. On both of those websites, his social media's, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, ticky, talkie, and YouTube.Now all of this information's gonna go on the showing notes as it always it does. So, Dionne, thank you for being my pastor today. And tell us the difference between man versus brand.com and dion brown.com and then you can give the world whatever advice you would like. All Deeon: right. So so Dion brown.com is like the, the one space for all of my stuff.You're gonna find the project, big brand stuff there. You're gonna find the man versus brand stuff there. You're gonna find out a lot about me and like my own life journey, my coaching journey. You're gonna find out information about my past companies that I worked with, things that I really love. I think it's a really transparent look into the cross-section.The intersectionality between me. Man or a [00:58:00] human and, and me as a brand, I think you'll get a really good idea of that. Man versus brand.com. We've got some merch on there that's really cool. We got all the platforms that man versus brand is on. And you can just listen to the episodes agnostic of any podcast platform.So if you just wanna listen I definitely have a place for you to listen there. And and if you ever guys wanna get in contact, you know, you can definitely reach out to me. Let me know. That you came by way of Devon, because you know, that builds the context for the conversation we're about to have.And and I appreciate you. So for the last thing I'm gonna say, it's not gonna be about me guys. What I want you to do is stop what you're doing right now. I want you to go to, wherever this podcast is that you're listening to and or watching it, I want you to smash the, like, smash the subscribe button.Smash the join button for sex drugs in Jesus, wherever you're listening to this app, and show some love. Like, shoot a comment out, like as a content [00:59:00] creator, man, sometimes I am so, so made to, to feel connected and to feel like humbled by and, and overwhelmed and overjoyed. When people leave me comments, when people like, when people subscribe, it just, it, it, it, it just lets me know that the work is being received and, and we know that people are listening.We know that you guys enjoy. But there's something to just seeing that right to feel it is one thing to see it as another. So if you're listening to my voice right now, pause this podcast, make sure you come back to it and pop that sex drugs in Jesus Lincoln man, and make sure that you are following all the channels that it's on, that you're liking it, that you're subscribing to it.Because this guy's putting out work. Not only is he putting out work, he's putting out necessary work, transparent work work that brings about healing. Work, work that breaks down stereotypes and traumas and, and I think it's important. And so [01:00:00] feed him like he's feeding y'all by showing that love and support.And that's me. De'Vannon: Well him. Thank you Dion. No one's ever done that before. You sure know how to make an impression. . Deeon: Thank you. I appreciate it. Listen guys, thank you so much for having me on. I hope to come back. This guy's amazing, so make sure, and he has an episode on man versus Brand, so check that out. It just released like.Two or three weeks ago. So if you like this episode, hopefully he'll place it in the show notes, the episode that he was on for our podcast, where we talk about all things related to his experience in that particular section of Christianity. And his, the book that he wrote and the experience that he had in love and relationship and mentorship and all the, the experiences that this man had and what my take was on it.And so he did a lot more talking. On that episode than, than he did on this one. And I did a lot more talking on this episode, which is, I think, the nature of guest and host. So [01:01:00] check out his episode, man. I hope you guys enjoy this one and blessing and balance.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs in jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at Davanon Sex Drugs and jesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is Davanon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

INTRODUCTION:  I'm a professor, hypnotherapist, author, and advocate who has helped many people for the past 20+ years overcome trauma from PTSD, abuse (physical, sexual & emotional) & other mental health issues. In many cases, I may be the only person that my clients confide in regarding their sexual assault or rape. My mission is to raise awareness and convince people and parents that young children and teens must learn about grooming and targeting so that, as a community, we can reduce the number of sexual assaults against our youth. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Sexual Victimization & Trauma·      Reporting/Non-reporting ·      Me Too Movement ·      Victim Grooming·      Religious Implications ·      The “Sex Talk” Is Not A One Time Event·      How Molestation Affects Future Relationships For The Victims·      Molestation Is Not Because Of The Gays!!!·      Women In Comas Who End Up Pregnant ·      Possible Treatments – For The Victims & The Perpetrators  CONNECT WITH DR. SMITH: Website: https://right2consent.com/Books: https://right2consent.com/#BooksTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@right2consentLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3SpKsp3Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/right2consent/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/@right2consentFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/right2consent/   CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Dr. Lisa Smith[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello everyone, and welcome to episode number 92 of the Sex Drugs In. Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. Dr. Lisa Smith is a professor, a hypnotherapist, an author, and an advocate who has helped many, many people over the past 20 years to overcome all kinds of sexual trauma and P T S D and physical and mental and emotional abuse and all kinds of stuff.Y'all Now, in this episode, Dr. Smith and I are gonna be focusing [00:01:00] particularly on child molestation elder. Victim grooming, religious implication, and various things like that in the sexual arena. This episode touches on serious issues within our society that are severely understated. So I hope y'all get a lot out of this episode and share it with somebody you know.Hello, are you beautiful people out there? And welcome back to the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. Yes, Jesus is your friend. He's my friend. And if you don't believe in anything at all, then maybe you will one day. Today I have with me Dr. Lisa Smith. She's an author and advocate and professor. This woman has over 20 years of experience as a counselor and a hypnotherapist.She considers herself to be an advocate for the masses of those suffering from trauma and abuse. She's professor of psychology, criminal justice, and Human services. Girl, how you doing today, ? Dr. Smith: I am beautiful. And that is [00:02:00] my mantra. Hello, beautiful people. So I am doing really good today and I'm very grateful to ha to be on your show.De'Vannon: Well, thank you for setting us out an hour of your life, Dr. Smith. You know, all the resources we burned through in this life and that we can create more of time. time is one of those things that we just can't get back any more of. And so for you to set aside an hour of your irreversible resource, you know, irre, replenishable resource with Little O Me, you know, it is not taken for granted.I appreciate you mentally. Dr. Smith: Thank you so very much, and I appreciate you for spreading this important message because I don't think we have this conversation enough with all the conversations we could be having. I think this is one we definitely need to have a lot more of, especially when you're talking about trauma and [00:03:00] sexual.De'Vannon: So y'all, well, you might be questioning what trauma will we be talking about today? Cause we talk about a lot of trauma on this show for the day, we're talking about sexual victimization of everybody from Little Childrens all the way up to old people. Before we hopped on this Zoom meeting, Dr. Smith was telling me about the sexual assault of elders, like in her state.She's in Florida. And I was like, okay, well fuck, I never thought about people trying to like do sexual things to incapacitated old people. And, but you know, we're gonna talk about that, you know, you know, later on here. So tell us, you know, so tell us about your, your educational training. You know, you are a doctor.Where did you study? What did you learn? Dr. Smith: Absolutely. Well, I live in Florida, but I am a New Yorker, so I studied at the, in, in CUNY City University of New York at City College. I'm shouting out my alma mater. I also received my [00:04:00] doctorate. I got my bachelor's in my master. There and I received my, my doctorate from Walden University.And then I also have a criminal Justice Masters from Johnson and Wales University. And one of the things I am is the advocate for sexual violence because most of my training has been with trauma, trauma with foster to care kids, trauma with young girls as well as boys. I work with juveniles who were trying to move from the prison system out of the as in diversion programs.And they have a lot of sexual assault history. But I'm a hypnotherapist. I've been a hypnotherapist since oh six. I've worked in a lot of social programs. And what I find is that sexual trauma is most prevalent. So let me give you the stats. One in four girls, one in six boys. But I believe that that is much higher simply [00:05:00] because these are the people that we know have reported.And as you and I know, many people don't report. They tell their story, but they don't report. And so for, especially for the males, those who are themselves, sexual assault victims as well as predators in the juvenile justice system, you find a lot of both, right? Because they were sexually assaulted and they modeled that behavior.So in 2006, I I was working in a. Delinquency program and I was asked if I would be interested in hypnotherapy, which I had not considered, but the subconscious is where we hide or code that trauma through our sensory memories. So it, it was apropo for me to be able to use that technique to actually hit the trauma much quicker than you will in talk therapy.Most of the time it can take anywhere from one to [00:06:00] six meetings, but usually about three meetings with me and that trauma is exposed and you can start moving f from that. So that's, that's my background. And I, like I said, I'm a professor as well. I teach at University of Arizona Global Campus in the human services programs.We have a bachelor's, master's, and PhD there where I work with graduate students. So that's my background. De'Vannon: There's nothing wrong with that. You know, I'm a, a hypnotist as well. I went to school for that and learned you know, all about it. And I, I was gonna pair it with my massage therapy certification that I have it.In the process of learning hypnotherapy, I realized just how how much help I needed myself, and then I decided that I didn't need to be doing that on anybody else. And I, and I turned my training inward and used it to heal me and Dr. Smith: so beautiful. I love De'Vannon: that. , like Dr. [00:07:00] Smith is saying, hypnotherapy is real.And she's not talking about make people quack like ducks on stage or see if they're afraid of cotton and all, all this crazy shit. You see, like on talk shows, we're talking about a therapeutic approach and it's often paired with like psychologists and sociologists or social workers rather, and things like that.And it is totally done in a clinical setting. The education is accredited. Look it up, people. Hypnotherapy is real. There's all kinds of mental health services out there. Maybe hypnotherapy can work for you if nothing else has. So Dr. Smith also wrote a series of books. There's a couple for parents, a couple for kids.The titles are interesting. The first one is called Chad Keeps a Secret. The other one is a yes. Aaliyah can't tell her secret. Yes, those are the ones for parents. It's called the blaming and shaming of defenseless victims in America's rape culture. And y'all, the statistics and things we're talking about today are for the United States of America.We're not talking [00:08:00] globally. And then the other one is overcoming trauma. Is there anything you'd like to say about these four books that you have contributed to the world? Dr. Smith: Absolutely. So the children's books are so that we can start talking to children about sexual violence simply because, Most children under the age of eight will be approached by a sex offender.And many of them don't know what to do when they're asked to keep a secret. And so Chad Keeps a secret, was named by my, my niece Chad Bozeman had just died. And she thought that it would be important for her to name the character Chad in his honor. Now, of course, Aaliyah can't tell. Her secret has everything to do with Aaliyah.Just be clear. The, the characters in it are Aaliyah and [00:09:00] Robert, right? Because I don't want us to know that as a community. We slept on Aaliyah. We knew what was happening with r Kelly, and we did nothing. So this is homage to her. So that people are aware that yes, your teen too can be in a sexual situation that she is not consenting to.And even though we have what we call Romeo and Juliet laws that oftentimes people are not aware that 36% of sex offenders are juveniles or they're consenting with older adults. So those are five to nine year olds. And then we have the the blaming and shaming of defenseless victims in America's rape culture.Why is that? Because we use this theory Now, this is a theory that I devise, you'll find it in my book. That book is specifically [00:10:00] for parents, teachers college student. I wanna know more about how we encourage rape culture in this, in the United States, how we deny, or what we call denial, which is part of dis theory, d i i S, we deny we do not act, which is inaction and information suppression.So basically what we do as a community, as a friend is oftentimes we say, no, that couldn't have happened. Most of the time we are not saying, I believe you. I wanna help you. What can I do to help you? We deny we don't provide action, we don't report, and then we suppress the information. So we have a large number of undetected sex offenders out and about making their way to another vulnerable victim, whether that be a child, a teen, or an adult.So those are my books. They're [00:11:00] available on Amazon, but they're also available on my website. Which is a crime reporting website right to consent.com. And that's the number And that is report? De'Vannon: Yeah. And that's the number two. And I'm gonna put her website, it's right, the number two consent.com. And I'm gonna put all that in the show notes along with her social media and everything like that.I'm curious, what, what got you particularly passionate about this subject matter? Did something happen to you when you were younger or someone you know? What sets you on this Dr. Smith: trajectory? Ironically, there four girls in my family, three have been sexually assaulted. I have not been sexually assaulted, but when I was nine years old, my.Cousins were kidnapped and taken to Saudi Arabia because their father wanted to practice Islam from the origins. And when I saw my cousin [00:12:00] again she was 12 years old. She was a child bride, and she had a baby. And so for a long time I was afraid of the Islamic faith. I didn't know much about it.But I learned a lot about what my cousin would went through. Not only was she sexually assaulted in her marriage as a child bribe, but she was de she, she also faced physical violence. So like I said, the, my, my quest is, , how do we reduce the numbers, eradicate the issue because that was so personal to me.And I have my other cousin who was also married at a, a young age, but she was able to consent the, the sister of my cousin at the time. So, you know, that for African American [00:13:00] girl was a startling revelation. Should I say that this was accepted practice in another part of the world and that child brides can be found in so many places in this c in this world.De'Vannon: Tell me what, what is, how do you feel like the Me Too, the me Too movement compares with what you've studied here and what you've written about? Dr. Smith: Well, I think that the Me Too movement. Kind of piggybacks off of what I call the, the kids too movement, because many of the young people in, not young, but older people in the Me Too movement was sexually assaulted as children, as teens.For many of these women and men, their first sexual this first sexual, [00:14:00] I don't wanna say event, was forced or forcible rape or sexually violent. It wasn't consenting. And so when you say Me Too, the question is what does me, what's the foundation of Me Too? Are the women and men saying that I was a child when I was first sexually assaulted under the age of 10, right.Prepubescent ages, or was I a teen under the age of 18? Right. And so, . The reason why I say that's important because if you are sexually assaulted as a child, you are depending on your race and, and gender, you are. If you're African American, you're 35 times more likely to be sexually assaulted in again.And the sexual assault repetition [00:15:00] is increased when you're under the age of eight. So sexual assault can happen again in your teens and many times the people in Me Too have been sexually assaulted more than once. . Okay. And that's why I think it's significant because depending on your age, will determine the likelihood or your vulnerability of being sexually assaulted again in the future.And that's why I think we need to start having these conversations much, much earlier so that children know how to talk to an offender because the parents aren't gonna be there to save them, if that makes sense. De'Vannon: Right. And we'll talk about those parents in a, in a minute, cause I've got my opinions on, on, on parenting when it comes to the topic of sex.But what, what would you say, I'd like you to give a word of comfort to people out there who have been victims [00:16:00] of sexual assault, either once or multiple times, but, and they may be thinking like, why does this keep happening to me? What am I doing wrong? Why is it my fault? What would you say to them? Dr. Smith: Well, one is the, the fact that we don't talk to our kids and teens about sex.In fact, we usually, if we're talking about sex education classes, they don't come around until the child is in their teens. But what about all those other stages and ages? One is about vulnerability. The other is about what do I do if I'm in this situation? And we don't have those conversations if we're not having conversations about sex.And sometimes that's religious based, right? And sometimes that's cultural based and taboo. But if we're not having these conversations, then how does this child know that I can be in this scenario and how am I going to out of this scenario unharmed. Right. [00:17:00] And and, and that's what I think is missing, right?How is a child victim? How is a one child more likely to be victimized than another child? Right? And, and, and the question is, is how savvy are they when they are approached by someone who, let's just take teens, for example. If you've never had sex and you don't know what to expect and nobody has told you what to expect, even if you say no, somewhere along the line that consent, because we have a lot of issues with consent in this country, that consent may be disregarded.Right? And why is it disregarded? Because we have a culture in which there's this that no doesn't mean. , right? We have movies that show No, no, no, no, no. And then acquiescence, right? So we have these these cues that we're [00:18:00] giving teens as well as young children that just because you say no, that does not mean that you have agency over your body and that the person who is wishing to violate you has more power and control over you.Okay? The other is that what scenario is that child gonna be placed in, and how savvy are they to maneuver their way out of it not to be harmed? And so that's what I believe the issue is. We need to talk about it more often. We need to provide scenarios to young teens as well as children, so that in the event they are approached, they know how to act and respond.And they know that secret keeping is not part of the equation. De'Vannon: Can you give us an example, either from your experience or one of your books as to how a child or somebody who's about to be a victim or has been can act and respond?Dr. Smith: [00:19:00] Absolutely. So in one of my books the blaming is shaman of defenseless victims.I have a boy at the time, he was five years old. His cousin had approached him 11 years old. Grandma goes to the grocery store, his cousin's supposed to be in the house, right? Because 93% of people who are most likely to victimize your child, they're known, they're acquaintance, they're a family member.And let's be clear, so he's in the home with his cousin, she's 11. Okay? And they play this game of touch, right? And, and pleasure. . So he doesn't know as a five year old that this is something that he shouldn't engage in, but it feels good to him. So he allows it. It's a secret. Grandma's not here. So we're gonna keep this secret.And this goes on for up to a year. Every time grandma leaves, they are both touched, they both touch each other. Right now, if we were [00:20:00] to do a rape kit, there's no evidence, right? But yet this is still happening. So how does a child combat that one? , they need to know body boundaries. They need to know that even if this is your cousin, this should not happen.There needs to be a conversation that nobody should touch your body outside of washing it. Right. Because there are times where older adults and older siblings are responsible for taking care of their younger siblings, but that child needs to know that their body shouldn't be touched in a certain way.Those conversations for that five-year-old didn't happen. And so now we see him as an adult. He has a lot of sexual addiction. He also modeled some of the behaviors as he was growing into a teen. And so he looked for, for other girls that had some sexual assault history because [00:21:00] it was easier for them to consent, if you will.Right. I have lo loads of stories where I had someone contact me on Instagram. Four year old daughter is being anally raped by her dad, but the courts don't believe her. The cops don't believe her. She's gone to C P S C P S refused to do a refused to do a wellness check and a, and a bodily check.They just took the report and because she has drug abuse history, they did not investigate. Right. So my. , my advice to her was go to the hospital. They're required to do a check after she comes from her father because it's court appointed that he sees her every weekend [00:22:00] after she comes from her father to get that report.And a doctor providing that report can easily be taken to the courts to say there's some anal fissures, which she, which they did fine. And there's lacerations around the anus. So, so as I said before the goal is not for your child to be victimized or for a, a child to experience this. The goal is to keep them safe, but it's happening.So what do we do now that we have to be reactive instead of proactive? Well, De'Vannon: that brings me to my issue with parenting. So like growing up here in the south, in good old Baton Rouge, Louisiana. , you know, they didn't talk about the s word, you know, they didn't mention sex. They kinda left it to the church into the school, which is like nothing.And so and, and like, and like you're saying when the, the talk, the sex, the birds and the bees does [00:23:00] happen. A per a person's a teenager or whatever, they already got hard dicks and you know, and everything's already been happened by then. But we started experimenting with each other's body parts when we were like in kindergarten, you know, we were already curious at that age.And so I learned about sex from like red shoe diaries on Showtime and real, you know, real fucking Right, right. And so, I agree with Dr. Smith. The only way to safeguard your child against a sexual predator is to establish boundaries as soon as that child is gonna be being outside of your sight. You know, because you cannot control what the hell is gonna happen to your child when they're not there.Education is the only way in keeping that door open. The sex talk is not a one time thing. It's supposed to be an open dialogue that that kid can always come back to you and be made to feel comfortable and safe and not weird. And then if something [00:24:00] does happen, then that bridge is already built. You know, here in the south it's like, it was like the big parents and little kids, you know, the adults over here, the kids over here, they always had this gap between us.And so I never felt like I could go to an adult with any fucking thing. And so, right. You know, when I was 15, I was the older boy in my church and they, the choir director was like 21, 22 and he took an interest in me and we were dating or whatever, and we'd meet in the back of church and make out the adults I guess acted like they didn't know or whatever.And this went on for months and he was running around trying to intentionally give people H I v aids is what he was doing. And so, wow. As an adult, looking back on it, And the, and it, it had to be fucking clear, you know? I'm like, why the fuck didn't any of the adults in this, in this church say anything?They just let me, let this, let this [00:25:00] 22 year old man do whatever the fuck he wanted to with my 15 year old assDr. Smith: Can I bring my criminal justice background in here first?first. They're, they're equally as liable nowadays. Now that the laws are changing, parents as well as guardians are starting to be held accountable for stuff like that. But when we talk about consent laws and age of consent and ability to consent to a certain type of sexual relationship 14 used to in, in, if I'm not mistaken, in Louisiana.14 used to be the age, but they pushed that up if I'm not mistaken, to 16 and that, and it's been 16 probably for decades. Right. So if you're saying that this happened at [00:26:00] 15, that man could have, cuz he's a man after 21, after 18. Right. That man could be responsible. And many of the laws now are changing that they are allowing people to report abuse.That was depending on the age. Of course, if you, if you were a child, you have a lifetime of reporting. But if you were like you, you, a teen, usually some only allow 10 years. Some might allow 25 years. It depends on the. If that makes sense. So that's my criminal justice history. But the fact what, what I need, need the people out there to know is most of the community knows the sexual predator and knows the sex offender.Right. And I'll just throw a question out there. Which one of your family members was suspect that your mama told you Stay away from? Right. Stay away from him or tell [00:27:00] her because they up to no good. Right. Most of the time the community knows first why. is it that they don't engage? It's cuz let's be clear, it has everything to do with who is the person responsible for this victimization?Are they a pillar of the community? Is it a pastor, is it a deacon in the church? Is it a authority figure? Is it a head, a principal at, at the school? Is it a teacher? A lot of times parents will not report because they don't want one, their business to get in the street. And two, they don't wanna be the parent that was not paying enough attention to their child to have and, and victimization occur.Right? So that's denial, inaction, information suppression, dis theory at the top. [00:28:00] Correct. De'Vannon: And you know, parenting is, is not like a cute thing. But it is treated cute. You know, whenever you hear somebody say, they usually don't wanna have a kid. , it's really to the benefit of the parent. You know, you don't really have a child for the child's sake, you know, the kid does not exist until you create them.You create them for your own entertainment or for your own pur purposes, or you want something to love. It is completely selfish to have a child. I don't mean that in a judging way, I just mean it in a truthful way. Not going to adopt a kid that's already here is a little bit different because you're trying to help somebody in a fucked up situation.But the whole point is once the kid gets past the cute rosy phase, you know, you know, there's actual like a lifetime of accountability and it's like a job to be a parent, you know, and everything like that. And it is not just this cute thing, you know, cute kid. You want it to help save your marriage or to help you feel good about yourself or to help you have something love.You know that that person. A, a living ball of emotions and con [00:29:00] consciousness and decisions and things and, and yeah, I, well, I'm saying all this is say, I don't think a lot of people think very deep into the weight of parenting and they get caught up in the emotion of fulfilling the American dream. And then when all of these mm-hmm.things come up, they fall short because they really didn't think about what the hell they were getting into when they decided. Dr. Smith: Right. And, and here's the thing. If that person who's victimizing your child happens to be within your family, families break up for this, right? If it's a father who is victimizing their daughter or their son, , what does that mean to split up the household, right?If it is a nephew or a c a a, a favorite cousin who's victimizing your child, what does that mean to the family as a unit? What parent wants to [00:30:00] turn in their son or daughter, right? What family wants to deal with the fact of sexual assault? And I get it, however I'll give you another case. Girl is 16 years old.Her, she's in her aunt's house. Her pa, her sh her family is there because they lost housing. And it's not uncommon for aunts and uncles and nieces and nephews and cousins to be living in the same house at grandma's house. But at night, she was expected to sleep on the couch. So her uncle would come in, have his beer, feel her up.Go home, go and get in bed with his, with his, with her aunt and sh and her mom slept in another room with her younger siblings. And that was a every night occurrence. But when she brought, she brought it to me. I'm a mandatory reporter, so I have to report this. One of the first things I do is contact her mom.And her mom cusses me [00:31:00] out. I'm gonna make her lose her housing. Her sister's not gonna talk to her anymore. And I, me, the counselor is gonna cause her to be out on the street. I can't tell you how many times people have cussed me out to keep their child safe. I've had a father tell me he was gonna come up to.My job and whip my ass and he don't know me cuz I'm like, listen, I'll give you what you looking for. I get off at five o'clock and I have no problem meeting you. I don't bullies. I'm sorry. Not I ain't your wife and I ain't scared of you. Yes, I absolutely will report this, but I won't be by own myself either.Okay. I'll not be by myself. So call me again. I will give you what you looking for. De'Vannon: He said he ain't about that life. You ain't about that life.[00:32:00]Dr. Smith: I'm not the one. Absolutely not. I, I know that this is a thankless job, but the question is, well, what child in your family do you wanna be harmed? How do you wanna mess with their sexual identity? Because let's be clear. Sexual assault. I'm not talking about sexual orientation, I'm talking about sexual identity.I'm talking about the way they experience pleasure. I'm talking about the way their ideas of sex after they've been violated. I'm talking about how they feel about their own body, their own agency over their body, and how long that's gonna last, right? Is it gonna last into their twenties? You best believe it.Is it gonna last into their thirties, their forties and fifties? You best believe it. We've got 60 and 70 year olds who had sexual charma, and I'm still the first one they told. Hmm. Okay. And what did that mean for the way they, they [00:33:00] received touch, right? Did they find pleasure? Were they out of their body?Are they still numb from something that happened so many decades before? . Right? That's what I mean about sexual identity. You and I, we love sex just as much as the next one because it's pleasurable and it's orgasmic. But what does that mean for a child who's just entering that sexual world and they've been violated and victimized?How will they experience sexual pleasure in the future? And why are we as a community so careless about the fact that we are creating these damaging individuals? Sexual addiction isn't a joke, but let's be clear. There is a link between those who are sexually addicted and sexual assault. Okay. And the way in which promiscuity plays out in their life.[00:34:00]Is that a bomb dropper? De'Vannon: No. I'm just thinking about some people that, well, you know, some people that I know. You know you know, and wondering, you know, what the possible link, just ask them. Dr. Smith: Ask them. I, I, listen. Sexual addiction is linked to sexual assault or victimization or violation in the youth, in their youth.And many of them have repressed it so deep that they don't know that they're being triggered every time they're in a sexual, sexual situation. De'Vannon: So do you find that people who've been sexually assaulted are not emotionally present, they're just kind of like doing the act of sex or what, what, what do you.[00:35:00]Dr. Smith: So there I, yes, I'm gonna say yes to that because there are people who the violence was so frequent that they left their body right, and so they're emotionally lo numb. It's what we call dissociation, right? And we leave our body if we are in threat, right? But if it happens so frequently, then we are no longer emoting properly.So if you are in, for example, if you are in a car accident and you felt that you were going to die, right? You dissociate, meaning that you go into a shock and you freeze. But in that freezing, you disconnect from that emotion, those emotions that may prevent you from reacting and responding. So then we respond.Physiologically, but we are not aware of why we're doing it. Our body mobilizes us and that happens a lot. [00:36:00] So when we are sexual, when, when, when we are sexually assaulted, and that brings sexual violence, right? It is painful. It is harm. Hurtful. It is. And, and you, you stop having control over your own body regardless of the age you dissociate.And it doesn't mean that you return. So for many people, they don't experience that pleasure. They have to have this real intense either roughness. It's the same thing with substance abuse issues. Many people who have substance abuse issues use that as a form of escapism to escape the fact that there's all this trauma in their background.Okay? And they can't. Prevented because they're constantly being triggered by sensory experiences, smell, taste, touch here. Okay. And all the [00:37:00] time they're triggered. It brings them right back to that place because like I said, there are some people who are can, can absolutely cannot move past the trauma. And sometimes talk therapy doesn't allow them to do that.And some people don't even get any kind of therapy, so they just go on. But they're still in that state and they've made a decision. Every time we make a life threatening choice, we make a decision. Sometimes it's an eight year old making that decision. Sometimes it's a 12 year old making that decision.Sometimes it's a 25 year old or a 65 year old making a decision. But we do make a decision about our lack of power and control. De'Vannon: So I have a question about the gays. So when I was in my, it's the gays , right? But when I was in my mid twenties, I, I used to be heavily involved at Lakewood Church in [00:38:00] Houston, Texas, you know, under Joel, Joel and Victoria Osteen.Once they found out I wasn't quite as straight as they would've liked me to be after questioning who I'm dating and stuff like that, I was fired from volunteering and basically told that I was a threat to the children that I was working around just due to my sexual orientation. And so, since the church has this belief that gay men want to lurk around the church to fuck their little boys, I'm, I'm curious if you've seen this in your practice, cuz the church acts like every child molester has to be a gay.Dr. Smith: Okay, so first I wanna say I apologize immensely that that happened to you. As you were saying it, my heart was dropping and I had a little ping. Okay? They are wrong. As soon as I see their psych degree, I will revisit this, but they are wrong, and they had absolutely no [00:39:00] right to tell you that you are a predator.Let's be clear, gay does not equal predation. Let's start there. If y'all didn't hear that before, gay does not equal predation. More importantly, when we start looking at the research, the research says that if you are a sex offender or a predator, you most likely have a. , okay. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation.It has everything to do with your sexual proclivities. What are you attracted to? There are some male as well as female, and it does not necessarily mean that it is a gay relationship, a bisexual relationship, a transgender relationship, an intersex relationship. Let's get it all out there. Or pansexual, I can go on.This is [00:40:00] about are you attracted to a certain type of minor? Are you attracted to prepubescent? Are you attracted to pubescent? Are you attracted to a certain kind of individual? Now there are those who were born that way, has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation. More importantly, if Joe Stein can show me his psych degree.I listen to him, absolutely listen to him. But the days of homosexuality as a disorder in ERA have long passed. Okay? The D S M does not recognize homosexuality as a disorder, right? So let's be clear. Religion often takes a stance that's not validated by research science [00:41:00] or any other human behavior, okay?The fact that many people think that a gay man or a lesbian woman can influence their child in such a way means that they have very little information about the way in which a child not adopts, but is born into a certain sexual orientation. . Okay. So you being a gay does not influence me To be gay does not influence others to be gay.You might serve as a model, meaning that you might be someone that a young gay boy can come and talk to about experiences because they themselves are gay. Okay? But it's not to say that you would somehow, because you were interacting with this child, rub your gayness [00:42:00] off on them, if that makes sense. Okay.It is bullshitand you know when people come up with this or if, when people perceive these incorrect and ignorant thoughts, it's not a threat. That you, it's not that you are a threat, it's that they are a threat because they go around preaching this to others and it's totally and completely inaccurate. But I always tell people, well, as soon as I can see your psych degree, then I will listen to you.But outside of that, if you've sat in as many psych classes and hypnotherapy classes as I have to be not only just to get the degrees, then you might have something to say, but I'm certain that it's not gonna be what they're saying. So again, I apologize for that because [00:43:00] they are authority figures and people listen to them as if their words and thoughts are truthful and factual.Mm-hmm. , and that's bullshit. , whatever they came to you with, that's bullshit. But I'll tell you what, nothing in this life happens for a reason you weren't supposed to be there. And who knows what, what they might call Joe Osteen and his wife in the future, right? Because oftentimes we don't see them work acting godly.But that's another show, right? , that's another show. And more importantly, what would Jesus say? Jesus will probably let you through the Pearl gates quicker than they, than will let them through the pearl gates. And that's just my 2 cents. De'Vannon: Hallelujah. [00:44:00] Tabernacle and praise on that. Well, that's all I'm gonna say.I appreciate your, your kind words and when I was researching you, this word grooming kept coming up. Yes. , what does it mean in the sense of children or, or grooming that this, what is this Grooming? Dr. Smith: Yes, grooming is such a powerful word. The horrible thing is that a or a offender or a predator, most of the time a predator will groom a family, meaning that they will gain your trust and that trust will can span years, right?Because one thing about offenders is they, they wait, they wait to build the trust between the parents so that the parents releases the child to the predator or the offender's care. So they can isolate and withdraw that child so that the grooming process can start. And [00:45:00] that basically means give the child to trust them, give the child gifts, give the child's praise, attention, affection so that the molestation and the penetration can happen.And so basically what happens over time, and it can take days, weeks, months, is that that family trust, that predator or offender, they bring wine to the family functions, okay? They're usually in the house. The parents trust them. And so when that predator says, let me pick your child up from soccer practice.Let me pick your child up from basketball practice. Let me pick your child up from Girl Scouts there. There's the trust. The parent trusts them. That child's in the car. And so that predator or that offender will use touch or they'll expose them to child pornography or naked pictures of themselves. [00:46:00]And if that child doesn't know what to do, that offender or predator will go a little bit further.So they might touch just above the dress, just up the skirt. And if that child says nothing, then that predator or offender knows they can go a little bit farther by touching the butt. And each time they may give candy because the gifts are usually cheap. They might give kisses. They might buy a new pair of shoes or a new toy to get access to the body, and they will wait, wait.And the more that child doesn't fight, the further they will go the next time. You're talking about? Yes. That's grooming. Hmm. That's grooming. De'Vannon: So grooming is like hunting. This is like, yes. An intentional, perfect word. This is a hunt, , [00:47:00]Dr. Smith: pray. They're looking for their prey. They're looking for the weakness in the family unit, and they're looking for the opportunity to isolate the child.Yes. Predators. No. Pray. Yes. They're looking for an entry point study. Long study wrong. De'Vannon: Do you think that these predators. are probably looking for like either weak-minded parents Dr. Smith: or Absolutely. Or a parent that just has too much to do. We have, we come, our culture has parents out of the house, long hours at a time.Children come home sometimes to empty houses and they're governing themselves. I was a latchkey kid. My parents, my mom didn't get home till at, well after five o'clock. Sometimes she left the house to go to work when I was getting home. So we had no [00:48:00] one there at night. This happens often, often, okay. Or that grandma might leave this child with their, that grandma might leave this child with the offender in the house.It might be a sibling, right. It might be a a a uncle. Right. And they might be le a babysitter. Babysitters oftentimes. And people think that because they're little boys and the babysit, if the babysitter is allowing, is having sex with your 10 year old, that's sex offending, that's criminal, that's a felony.Doesn't matter that he's a little boy. It matters. Is it criminal?De'Vannon: Good lord. My mind is [00:49:00] just like spinning. So let, let me, let me take us back to the church. What is your opinion on the Catholic Church and these altar boys and the way they molest them? So, Dr. Smith: snap, these are Survivor. This the Survivor Network Network of those assaulted by Priests is a huge network that's online.You can find it. Okay. What is my take about it? The, the Catholic Church, not just the bishops, but the community. There are communities of older adults who were sexually sodomized, okay. Sodomized by priests and nuns. It's in my book, okay? It's in my book, that it was sanctioned by the community, meaning that the bishops didn't automatically move a priest.They kept what they called pedophile files. The same thing [00:50:00] happened with the Boy Scouts of America. They kept the files and they moved the priest around. So community members and their children knew these priests had absolutely no right, but they left them in place, and when the complaints got big enough, then they would move them to another parish and allow it to happen again.And so if we start holding people who knew accountable authority people or people in authority who knew and did nothing, if we start including them in the lawsuits, then we would see this diminish that you can't move predators around you because you leave a new group of people vulnerable to these assaults.So that's what I think about it. I think they should be jailed. I think that if they're not jailed, they should get [00:51:00] rehabilitation. Because listen, When you sexually assault a child, you don't get a lot of time. It's only recently they started getting time. Some people got 90 days, some people were out in a year, and then they went and got jobs someplace else.Okay? There are some people who serve absolutely no time at all. Sandusky, who ran, who who, who brought that scandal to Penn State. He had a whole foundation centered around his predation and what happened as a result, he got, he, he, of course, he's in jail for the rest of his life, but in comparison to the number of kids he's sexually assaulted, he got a year per kid, right?When we look at some of the major cases, there are people, institutions that know. That's why I said this theory is not just for the victim or the predator or the offender, it's also for the institution. How many schools have [00:52:00] moved around a predator? . Okay. Colleges. I mean, the thing about NDAs is that you hide the fact that this conversation, it's the suppression of information.This conversation cannot be had by the people involved, and so nobody knows about it. That institution doesn't get a smirk on their record. There's no issues with their reputation, and nobody knows about it. So that person gets moved to another university because if there's an nda, that means that they can't talk about it when they're providing a reference.Okay? We engage in a lot of NDAs, and so this is what gets my hackles up because there are so, so many law enforcement agents who are like on college campuses, I am not going to pursue this cuz I don't wanna [00:53:00] mess up this boy's. Career. And so that boy gets a slap on the back and he gets to go on with his life again.When I go back to sexual identity, he gets to use those same techniques someplace else. Because if you are not punished, how does your behavior decrease or decline? Right? That's a basic psychological principle. A rewarded behavior will reoccur. So if you don't go to jail and there's no consequence for your actions, why wouldn't it reoccur?We've just rewarded you. So that's what I think about not just priest, but nuns. who also engaged in this practice in Catholic schools and Boy Scouts. If you were ever in Boy Scouts and many of these other organizations like Coaches , the University of Michigan and the US Olympics. [00:54:00] I can go on with this.NDAs lead to information suppression. Is De'Vannon: there anything like that in the I want, I'm gonna, that is after the interview is over, I'm gonna probably have me like, I don't know, a glass of vodka or something to help this all. Like, settle down. I didn't know much of what you're telling me today. Now let, let, let's talk about this elder abuse in Florida because this shit here y'all, when I think about elder abuse, I was thinking maybe they were taunting them in some sort of menacing way or hitting them.I, it never crossed my mind that somebody would be doing something sexual to some incapacitated elderly person. What in the fuck ? Dr. Smith: It happens at a, on a great scale. So here in Florida, we have a lot of [00:55:00] assisted living facilities in those assisted living facilities. You can have people who can walk those who can't.But the thing about assisted living facilities is that families often stop visiting, right? So that patient might not have anybody who comes to visit them in six months. Maybe one person will come once a year, and so a predator or an offender may see that as an opportunity. And if that, , if that elderly client is off, often uses me medication that keeps them in a comatose state, they are often victimized.And it's, and, and it happens. We know of people in comas who end up pregnant, but when we talk about elder abuse, we're talking about let's, let's say that, that a client has aphasia. Aphasia means, which is exactly [00:56:00] what came, ha, came out with Bruce Willis today. Aphasia means that they have trouble speaking and if you can't understand them and someone has sexually assaulted them, they can't tell you what happened, right, because you don't understand them.Right? There are some people who can speak, but usually stroke patients, they can't speak very. . Okay. So they can't tell you that something has happened to them, right? And so that person visits them when, no, when the staff is small and people aren't really around and paying attention, or when they're supposed to be doing something, they have access, right?Not only do they have access, but they can isolate by simply closing the door, right? By simply closing the door when there's not a lot of staff around to see what they're up to. And so that can happen with just fondling and molesting them while they're taking them to different services, like getting an [00:57:00] M R I or things like that.And that's what we're finding is taking place with elderly, right? So if it's not penetration, it's fondling and molestation, or it's, like I said, penetration in actual sex. De'Vannon: So if, so, if somebody in a coma ends up pregnant, what is the protocol? Do they then get the d n a test on every male staff member, or do they kind of sweep it under the rug?I guess it varies Dr. Smith: per place. They can absolutely get DNA n a evidence, right? Because if there, there shouldn't be semen, right? They can get DNA n a evidence if it is happening frequently, because if it happened before, that doesn't mean it's gonna stop happening when this individual is pregnant. But more importantly they're going to look at the, the people who have access [00:58:00] and then like I said, they're going to see when and when this person had, where this person had access and for how long.Right? And usually if they're the only ones in a room, , right? There's only a few people who are assigned to that individual. Mm-hmm. , right? And then it starts becoming investigation because if oftentimes there's others, there's others, right? And so you just start by eliminating the people that it couldn't be, can't be women, right?However, the men, this, this, this client comes in contact with, but with elderly abuse, you're not gonna find that, because of course they're past the menopause, but there are lacerations, there might be marks. And that's how they're finding out about it. Can a De'Vannon: woman give birth to a [00:59:00] kid if she's still in a coma when the term is Oh yeah.Dr. Smith: Absolutely. A reproductive cell. Her, her reproductive organs are still working and it has happened. It has happened. De'Vannon: How in the fuck can you imagine waking up out of a coma with a kid? You be like, oh, hell no. Where the Dr. Smith: fuck , I can't, I can't imagine being someone who's coming in to check to see that and finding out that this woman came in and was not pregnant and now all of a sudden she is.Yes. And d n a nowadays, you know, that's e that's easy to get now. Sweet Jesus. De'Vannon: And so, exactly. All right, so the last thing we're gonna talk about are like treatments. Before we talk about treatments for the victims, I wanna talk about treatments for the perpetrators because everybody's gonna, yes, everybody's gonna take their tiki torches out and their goddamn machetes and wanna butcher them and [01:00:00] burn them at the cross.I leave the judgment to y'all. I fear God, I gotta stand before him myself. I am not gonna be yet another voice in the crowd saying, burn him at the stake or her, because you hateful bastards got that covered. So, , , look, it gets on my nerves, you know, every time there's a child molester here, I, when I, when I lived in an apartment, I got sick of getting those goddamn postcards with this dude's face thing.He's a molester. I'm like, Nobody's perfect. I'm not excusing what they did or allegedly did, but there's got to be some recourse, some sort of help. You know, everybody can be redeemed, you know, if Jesus had a murder, murder and a thief hanging with him at, at Calvary Cal, you know, at Calvary, so, you know, at Calvary, so what hope that someone have, if they have molested a child or an adult or been been the perpetrator in a sexual situation, you know, they may feel guilty, they may beat themselves up, but [01:01:00] everybody can change.I don't care what's going on. So what do you think? Dr. Smith: Absolutely, absolutely. So we use several different techniques. The most severe that I believe and some Some pedophiles ask for, this is medical cra castration. But that doesn't really solve the urge, right? That doesn't really address the attraction, right?Because there are those, what we call minor attracted persons. These are people who are attracted to minors. There's that urge. Now there are those who don't act on it. And so that's not criminal, right? That attraction is still there, but how do we treat it? And we use what we call desensitization, right?And so we desensitize them. We use cognitive behavioral therapy because now we have to deal with the cognitive loop. The thought loop [01:02:00] about this. And, and like I said, there are a large number of people who were sexually assaulted by someone at an early age, and they received pleasure. And so now that they're older, I have had people tell me, you know, I married someone who looks just like the person who assaulted me, simply because sexually they're.Magnetized because they were so young. That was their first sexual experience. They equated it with an orgasm and it gave them pleasure. And so now they have this type and people call that a sickness, but it happens. There is somebody out there who's gonna tell you, yes, Smith, this absolutely happens. I and, and there are those who have babies for their offend by their offenders.And so cognitively we have to reduce or [01:03:00] we have to teach them to make new decisions about their offending. Right. And so not everyone who's been sexually assaulted is a predator, an offender or will be, but there are those who are and can be. So we have to. The thought processes, the way in which they experience pleasure, the desensitization of that.And that can be anything. Absolutely. Anything sensory. What do you smell? I smell the cologne. So anytime I smell that cologne, that cologne stimulates me in such a way, even though it's destructive, even though it came outta trauma. Right. Or I hear certain music, certain words that he would say or she would say to me, those things have to be addressed.And a lot of times they're hidden in the sensory memory. That doesn't come out during talk therapy. You have to do a series of sessions with that [01:04:00] individual to get to that which is stuck in the subconscious. And to get to that which is stuck in the subconscious, is outta your awareness. So you have to use certain techniques to do so.De'Vannon: My my with a tangled, well, we weave. Dr. Smith: Yes, it absolutely is. De'Vannon: Well, what I'm excited about is whether somebody's been a victim or they've been the perpetrator, there's help available if you want it. Dr. Smith: Absolutely right. Because we can reduce the urges so that that person is not a criminal. But for those who have not acted on these urges, how do we, how do we reduce that cognitive loop and that physiological response?And there's ways in which we can absolutely do that. Hmm. De'Vannon: Hold on. Y'all help is on the way. Help is on the way. [01:05:00] So y'all, so y'all, Dr. Smith's website is right to consent.com. You can find her on Facebook. The LinkedIn, Dr. Smith: TikTok, Instagram, I'm everywhere. De'Vannon: Okay, I'm here for the TikTok. Yes. And and I'll put all this in the show notes and everything like that.So thank you so much for this, for this, for this deep and troubling and moving it truthful information that you've given us today. I'm gonna have to have you back on. Okay. You can Dr. Smith: anytime you need me. Yeah. De'Vannon: Y'all, Dr. Smith's gonna be a standing guest on the sex drugs in Jesus podcast because of what a oppressing issue this is.I fear that it probably won't be going away overnight, so I kind of wanna stay on top of this as new information develops. You know, we're gonna be you know, in touch with you. So are there any last words [01:06:00] of advice or encouragement or whatever you'd like to say to the people out there?Dr. Smith: Absolutely. If you have been sexually assaulted regardless of the age, or you are a parent and you wanna educate your children, the conversation is where you start having the conversation and communicating. There is absolutely so many different areas. YouTube has a lot of self-hypnosis for those who've been sexually assaulted.But more importantly, you know it was not your fault and that self-care is so, so vital in the way you move past the trauma that you've experienced or that your child may have experienced, or if you're trying to keep your children safe. So thank you so much. I am so grateful for the opportunity to talk to you, and I just asked that if you come across someone who has been sexually assaulted, the only thing you can say is, I believe you, and how can I help you?[01:07:00]De'Vannon: and that's the T right there. Y'all look, look forward, look, look, look out for Dr. Smith being back on our show Again, thank you so much for expressing all that you have expressed today. God bless you. Thank you.Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs in jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at Davanon Sex Drugs and jesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is Davanon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

INTRODUCTION: Martina Clark was the first openly HIV-positive person hired to work for UNAIDS in 1996. She subsequently worked for the United Nations system for 20 years, advocating globally for the rights of people living with HIV. Her collaborative work also led to a mandatory HIV In the Workplace program internal to the United Nations system, facilitating platforms for freer dialogue and a more supportive environment for all personnel, including LGBTQ, persons with disabilities, and other marginalized populations. Clark holds a BA in International Relations and an MFA in Creative Writing and Literature. Currently, she is an adjunct for LaGuardia Community College (part of CUNY) where she teaches English 101 and Critical Reading to NYC public high school students earning college credits early. Her award-winning debut book, My Unexpected Life: An International Memoir of Two Pandemics, HIV and COVID-19, was published in October 2021. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      A Deep Look Into Living With HIV/AIDS·      How COVID-19 And HIV/AIDS Are Connected·      Specific Implications For Women Living With HIV/AIDS·      Castro Street In The Mid 80's·      Doctoral Disrespect·      The Benefits of HIV/AIDS·      The Importance Of Maintaining A Positive Perspective·      Implementing Changes At The United Nations·      Disease Does Not Discriminate ·      Why It's Easier To Talk To Homeless People & Children CONNECT WITH MARTINA: Website: https://martina-clark.com/homeBook: https://martina-clark.com/buy-my-bookLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martina-clark-2735719/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martinaclarkwriter/Twitter: https://twitter.com/MartinaClarkPenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/MartinaClarkWriter/YouTube: https://bit.ly/3IsGEjt CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Martina Clark[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Martina Clark is the author of My Unexpected Life, an International Memoir of two Pandemics, h i v, and Covid, 19. Now this book goes into great detail with regard to Martina Struggle living with H I V, surviving an Abusive Marriage, and her great efforts to establish an H I V awareness culture within the United Nation.Talk about a task, right? join [00:01:00] Martina and I as we travel in time from the Castro District in San Francisco in the 1980s, all the way up to the present days. We discussed life with H I v specific implications for HIV positive women and so much more. Hello, are you beautiful souls out there? And welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Davanon, and I have of me today the wonderful and lovely Martina Clarke and this diva here. Is a, is a woman after my own soul. She has a history of H I V. She's also overcome Covid 19, and I have had to deal with those both.She wrote a book called My Unexpected Life, an International Memoir of two Pandemics, h i v, and Covid 19. And that is what we are here to discuss today. H I v. And Covid 19. Martina, how are you my dear? Martina: I am. I am well. How are you? [00:02:00]De'Vannon: I am fan. Fucking fantastic. Awesome. You know, after having lived through two diseases, which do come to kill you, what can I possibly have to complain about?You know, I'm here, I'm queer. I've got a bright pink beard going on because it's Mardi Gra down here right now. And, you know, I'm in, I'm in the season. And you know, you know, you know, how are, how are you? I read your book and everything for fuck's sake. How are you? , ? Martina: I, you know, I think I'm kind of the same. I think we are both virus overachiever and considering all that we've been through, I, you know, I'll complain cuz sometimes it's fun, but I really can't complain.I'm here. Getting ready to turn 59 in a few weeks and never thought that would happen. And it's all good. I feel like I'm the luckiest person alive. De'Vannon: Right. And y'all, so in this, in this interview, I hope to give you some [00:03:00] deeper insight into, H I v, you know, how it affects you mentally and emotionally and everything like that.Mm-hmm. , what Martina can offer that I cannot is that she was around and dealing with this back in San Francisco, you know, when all the shit started to hit the fan. Really, you know, I got H I V like in 20, like 10 years ago, 20 11, 20 10, or some shit, a far cry from what was going on back, you know, in the nineties and eighties and things like that.So I'm super excited to talk to her. . You know, I've never had anybody on my show who came quite out of this era. Oh wow. Okay. Great. A side note before we get started, because I noticed like everything, when I was researching you and some of your images, I saw a repeat of what looked to be like dragonfly earrings.Yes. Wondering what this is . Martina: Yeah. And you I have them on right now. Exactly. . So, I thi this particular pair of [00:04:00]dragon dragonfly earrings I got in Cambodia of all places and I saw them in the hotel lobby where I was staying. And I tried to never buy stuff like in the hotel stores cause I wanna find the actual artists and support them directly.But I just fell in love with them and I thought the hell that I'm gonna buy 'em and I wear them every single day. I've had them. Probably 15 years and somebody told me that when you see a dragonfly in nature, it means that the ecosystem is in good shape. So for me, I like to wear the dragonfly is partly cuz I think they're pretty, but partly because it makes me feel like maybe my own little personal ecosystem is in good shape and I need all the help I can getSo that's what they mean to me. De'Vannon: That is so beautiful and it reminds me, I was, a couple of years ago, I was looking out my backyard and there's a stream that runs back there and there was a swarm of [00:05:00] thousands of dragon flies. Oh, wow. The, the only time I've seen is in my life. I used to catch him. You know, as a kid, but I don't catch insects anymore.I just want them to be free. Yeah. But but it was like thousands of them and they happened to, to show up as the sun was setting at a certain angle and it reflected off of all of their wings sign. Oh my god. And Martina: it . Wow. That must have been De'Vannon: amazing. It is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen in my life.In I can imagine You're here, here for the dragonfly. Now that's the beautiful stuff. Let's get into the, the gritty part of this. So the cover of your. Absolutely titillating. I'm always interested in people's book covers, you know, and what it means. One thing that, so the cover of her book y'all, is like, it looks like a passport.Mm-hmm. her very emotionless passport photo. You know, they don't like you to smile in those photos. They want you to look like a goddamn statue. So you pulled off your statue esque look. Very [00:06:00] well. Thank you. She's got like a Covid virus. She's got like h I v Now you have Venezuela. It's the only country that I see on there.You have 18 September, 1996. Was that the day you found out you had H I V. And was that the country you were in or what is the significance of Venezuela and that date? Martina: That is an excellent question that nobody has ever asked me. So the reason for Venezuela is total random. Okay? It has nothing to do with anythingBasically I had an idea of the cover that I wanted and I sent some pictures of passport, actual pages of my passport to the woman who did the ultimate design and they came up. The, the variations on the stamps and why they selected Venezuela, I cannot tell you. I guess it just happened to [00:07:00] fit, but I actually found out that I had H I V in 1992 in may I think of 1992 for some bizarre reason.I don't know the exact date that I tested positive, which I find extremely weird. , but I haven't committed it to memory. Or maybe I blocked it, I don't know. But yeah, it was in 1992 when I found out. So I was in San Francisco and that is when that journey began for me. De'Vannon: Now she was 28 years old when she found out.Mm-hmm. . I'm gonna read a snippet. From your book, I do love story time and there are two snippets that I'm gonna read throughout this interview here. So if I may, yeah, of course. Thank you. Okay, so this snippet here, y'all, this is Martina now. She says, unnerved by my memories of the men. Who died in those years, neighbors who left for the hospital and never [00:08:00] returned the relentless funerals I found myself reliving the grief of decades past history was repeating itself again, far too many.Did not heed the warning. Now. In this snippet here, she's tidying up this book as Covid 19 is beginning and COVID 19 is causing you to be triggered about what was going on back in 1992. Right? So, and then while I'm reading this, I'm having all these poses, flashbacks, and I'm just, you know, you know, I'm right there with you in New York back in the dance hall scene and in pose it was only three seasons, but my God, it felt like years of, you know, so many funerals, so many people died, you know, watching poses.If you haven't seen pose people, I don't know what you're doing with your life. Martina: Forget on it. De'Vannon: So, yes. And, and Martina is in New York right now. That's where she lives. And so all of this is just [00:09:00] really coming together for me right now in a super emotional way. So, so tell us about how you felt when you got H I V and what was going on, and then how did C O V I D trigger this for you?Sure. Martina: So when I found out that I had H I V. , I felt like my life had just been erased. And I remember I was, I got the news on the phone, which is not how you're supposed to get it. You're supposed to get it from an intellectual person in real life. But I got the news on the phone and I was standing in a kitchen and I just stared at a cabinet and it's like a white kitchen cabinet.And I, I felt like that was my life. It was just a blank slate. And not necessarily in a good way, but that everything I had ever done. , it just didn't matter anymore cuz I had this new thing that I was gonna have to deal with. I had never seen another woman with H I v I probably had, but I didn't register that I had.And [00:10:00] despite living in San Francisco, which in the eighties and nineties was, you know, really hard hit by H I V and AIDS pandemic, I just still felt very, very alone. I knew plenty of people with H I V, but not another woman. But before all of that happened in 1992 I actually lived on Castro Street in the mid eighties.Yeah. And yeah, Castro Street. If you don't know, San Francisco is the hub of the most fabulous gay neighborhood, perhaps on the planet, I don't know. But certainly in San Francisco. And I lived there at the, really, at the height of the AIDS crisis, and there were. sirens all the time and ambulances going by and funerals, and it was just a constant state of sort of survival and grief.And yet in the midst of this extraordinary community who was always like, we're gonna be better than this. We're gonna be bigger than this. We're gonna, we're gonna still be fabulous and [00:11:00]wonderful. And when. going through the beginning of Covid. I live in Brooklyn, in New York City, which was the epicenter for this pandemic.And so it was similar in a sense that there was just a constant stream of ambulances going by and people were dying. And I'm, I'm a teacher now and my students were telling me these horror stories of one student's mom died and the family didn't even know where her body was. For like weeks and I mean, just trauma that is unbearable for anybody.And it was on such a scale that I was really triggered and I, I mean, nobody knew what to anticipate as we went into the covid epidemic, but our pandemic, I should say. But I, I was really triggered and I found myself like back on Castro Street. Seeing [00:12:00] apartments for rent, knowing that probably the person inside who had lived there before died, you know, or yard sales.There were yard sales all the time, which it was just, it was so much to handle, to know that there was so much death going on around you. And then to go through this again was was overwhelming to say the slightest least De'Vannon: bit. Two pandemics in a lifetime. . Yeah. You know, when, when Covid came out, you know, they were saying like, you know, we hadn't seen anything like this since, I think 19 you know, the early 19 hundreds when there was a Spanish flu?I believe it was right, but. But if, but if truth be told for people dealing with H I V we have seen it before . Martina: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. No, we've lived through it and, and I'm in touch with a lot of long-term survivors of H I V and we all were just like, Ugh, this feels too real. Too [00:13:00] close. Too much. Yeah.De'Vannon: And so, I hear you when you say that you found out over the phone, that is so not the way to do it. When I found out they didn't even bother to call, they left the voicemail. Oh my gosh. I re, I retrieve my positive diagnosis from a voicemail and so , so it, it is just, and this was only 10 years ago, so it's sad to see that healthcare and the way they deal with H I V has not evolved, you know?Yeah. Back in those days telling people over the phone, in my case, leaving a voice. You know, it makes me think that some doctors who deal with H I V patients just don't respect us, you know? And just don't consider us be human enough to treat with common dignity and decency. . Yeah, Martina: I agreed. De'Vannon: Totally agree.HIV people, you did it to yourself. It's all your fault. So you, you deserve what happened to you. So we'll just drop the shit on the, we'll just call you and whatever. Martina: Yeah. . Yeah. No, agree. [00:14:00] Agree. I don't understand why we haven't gotten past . De'Vannon: Yeah. Stigma. Now, when you found out, you said you, you stared at the, at the furniture, you know, and you felt like your life, everything was at that point, didn't matter.They said that they gave you five years to live. Mm-hmm. . How did it feel to hear a doctor try to, and clearly we're far past five years now, , you know, thank God for that. Yeah. And you, but how did it feel to have someone tell you, look, you got, what is it, 60 months left f ? Do with it what you will , you know?Martina: Yeah. I never thought of it in terms of months. It, it just felt, again, it, it, it definitely felt dismissive. I mean, in, in retrospect, I look back and I think, okay, this doctor was also navigating this territory and probably didn't know what to [00:15:00] say, and that was his best assessment. Right. But at the time, I, you know, I was 28 years old.I felt like, that's it, you know, my life is over. And and he kept telling me to relax and to, you know, don't stress , just, you know, be as calm as you can. Don't stress about things because stress is bad for you. So relax and try and get lots of rest. . It's like, fuck you. You know, you just told me I've got five years to live.I'm gonna maybe make it to 33 if I'm lucky. Right. And I'm not Jesus, so I don't want that end, you know? Right. I don't wanna go down that path. So I yeah, I just felt like my life was over and. because there was no treatment yet that didn't come till like 1996. I think that is what launched me into becoming an activist, cuz I felt like, you know, if I am gonna die, at least I can try and make something out of this [00:16:00] to help somebody else, or at least make myself feel better about myself, , or, I don't know make me feel like I had a purpose.and so I didn't really focus on myself as much as I think maybe I should have, but it was sort of what I needed to do. I just needed to stay in my mind, stay one step ahead of the virus cuz there was no other option at that point. De'Vannon: I think you did better than me. I was too self-absorbed and too concerned about me.I thought I was just gonna like die in a few months cuz I didn't have, they didn't tell me I had five months. They didn't tell me anything after. Forgot the voicemail. I never talked to anybody and I just went down this whole bad spiral. The only person I knew who had H I V died at like 24 ish, and I just saw him triple up into like this husk of a person covered with boils and sores.Mm-hmm. . And I thought, okay, well, you know, that's where it's headed. And so [00:17:00] but hearing you speak. You know, tells me what I should have done. You know, I should have taken the microscope off of me and had I focused on trying to heal other people than I would've gotten healed myself, you know? Which is how I usually would deal with, cuz I had a strong history of volunteerism, but I was not volunteering during this time because I had gotten kicked out of church.For not being straight. And so I had stopped all of my philanthropy and public service work, so I wasn't in that vein of operating like I usually would have been. Mm-hmm. . So I didn't even think about that. And so, So people, when we get sick, if anybody out there contracts, h i v, here you have it, , don't find a way to help somebody else.That way you don't get o overly self-absorbed with your own nightmarish fantasies about what you think are going to happen. I like to talk about this because sometimes people. Get H I v and people are [00:18:00] like, oh, there's medicine for it now you can just fix it. That that doesn't take away the mental mind fuck of being invaded by something that you can't get rid of and that, you know, desires to take your life.It doesn't matter how far technology has come, the mental health aspect of it is still is real today as it was back in the Castro days. Martina: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I think that that is it's so important to, to highlight because people. , it's really not that big a deal now. You know, it's, it's so what?You take a pill every day and if you're probably fine, you'll probably have a regular lifespan. But that is so minimizing the reality, and it's just kind of bullshit because yes, there's medication and thank God it exists. And we're very lucky compared to so many people who are not here to even talk about this now.but the truth is you still have your body fighting this thing constantly. Research is showing that [00:19:00] for long-term survivors, it ages your body just because you've been fighting it for so long. So like in theory, I'm 12 years older physiologically than my actual age, and so I. 70 . So I'm now magically older than my siblings, which is kind of weird But then as you say, like all of the, the social dynamics and the mental health and the, you know, psychological, it's like you just still don't know. And the thing is, we still don't know, you know, we know that the medications are working so far so good, but we're the. Sort of cohort of people being studied to see if this medication actually works.I don't know, you know, maybe in another 10 years you're gonna be like, oops, it's as good as it gets. And that's, you know, it stopped working. Now, I don't know. And I don't know, like with Covid, you know, this is something I think about a lot was did I get c o because I have h I [00:20:00] V and I was more vulner. or when I got covid, did I not have a worse case because I'm also taking medication for H I V, which is not the same medication, but sort of in a similar family of fighting viruses.I don't know. You know? And it is a constant like just. every day. Not every day. Maybe after 31 years of living with H I V I don't think about it necessarily every single day, but I do think about it regularly, like, is something else going to go wrong tomorrow because I have H I V, you know, do I really have a full life to look forward to?Am I gonna live to 80 or 90? And of course, nobody knows how long they're gonna live, but I really, nobody knows how much h I V is actually still doing damage to. despite having the medications. Mm-hmm. like it's keeping us alive, but is it really you know, are we, are we actually still at a hundred percent?Like everybody likes to [00:21:00] pretend that you take the pill and you're good to go. You know? There's so much more to it, as you say. Yeah. De'Vannon: There's so much more to it and there's so many different medicines because everybody's body. reacts differently to different mm-hmm. things. No Doctor gives you a guarantee that medicine is going to work.They always have that same disclaimer, like, we're gonna try this. Hopefully it works. If this doesn't work, then we'll switch you to a different medicine. You hope and pray that your body doesn't grow a tolerance to whatever medicine that you are. Mm-hmm. . And you hope and pray that you don't get exposed to a different strand of it that could cause the virus within you to mutate, so mm-hmm.it's not just like a home free thing. It still has to, it still is a conscious. Yeah. I wanna give a word of caution too when people, you know, if you should happen to get H I V or hepatitis, I also, you know, have a history of Hepatitis B as well, you know, to be careful that you don't let it turn into anger.Mm-hmm. , when I was a teenager, this guy that I was. Dating, you know, he was like the same person who died of H I V or AIDS [00:22:00] was the same one. He was running around trying to intentionally give it to people. Mm. Because what happened with him is he got it and like me, I thought I was just gonna die. And I blamed myself.He got mad and he went out and tried to kill as many people as he could, you know, so, So just be careful, you know, your emotions that I like, we, we, Martina and I cannot overstate the emotional implications, you know, that can happen to people. Mm-hmm. . Now the last snippet that I have that I wanted to read talks about Different perspective on it.For, for instance, this is the panglossian outlook as you describe it in your book in the panglossian is just a very fabulous word that doesn't speak of mermaids or unicorns or the never ending story like you might think. It just means like a, a super optimistic person. . So , [00:23:00] so, so So the snippet reads, people living with the virus sometimes, say H I V, is a gift because it requires a long, hard look at yourself and your life.You take account of where you stand, it forces you to contemplate your mortality. Perhaps still, I've swapped my gift for a nice pair of shoes and so. after I settled the fuck down and realized I wasn't going to die, now we're talking what, four felonies and three trips to jail later. Because I really went off the deep end.I realized, you know, I gotta get healthy now. I have to, like, I started to like eat better, or at least think about it, you know? Mm-hmm. ways. And so for me it did turn into a gift. After I got my head back on straight . It was so funny to read. You say, you know, I'll take the pair of shoes.[00:24:00]did you find any benefits? I mean, Martina: you know, I, I, I always say that I would clearly, I would like, I'm sure everybody would like to have had a life without h I v. I would like to have tried that one out, but I would also be a liar if I said I didn't have some benefits because, because of the fact that I had h I v and it was just, you know, sort of the timing and my particular set of skills in life and all of these things converged and I ended up having a career for more than 20 years with the United Nations, which I don't think I would ever have been able to even fantasize about.You know, it just, it all unfolded because I had H I V and through that, Traveled the world. I have met extraordinary people from all walks of life in all kinds of places, and I wouldn't trade that for anything. I have been so [00:25:00] blessed to, to be able to go places and like, be in the company of the people who actually live there, you know, not get on a, a tour and ride around in a bus and wave at the, at the locals.You know, I actually got to be with the people who live in all of these places and. a little bit understand what they were going through and know that like their journey with H I V was different for certain reasons. or despite having living, being living in different totally different countries, we actually have a lot of things in common, you know, that sort of stuff that you realize.There's so many things that connect us as human beings. And when you're dealing with something as traumatic and big as h I v, a lot of those things they become super important and it no longer matters. You know, where you're from, what language you speak, what you look like, any of that. It's just like this common shared life experience and.to have had so many of those experiences is just, I feel like I am the [00:26:00] richest person on the planet in terms of life experience. Not quite as rich in terms of money, but that's okay. . And so things like that. I definitely got a lot of great, you know, not pairs of shoes, but a lot of great other gifts,De'Vannon: hey, perspective is everything. A person can have so much in front of them and focus on a few things that they don't have and forfeit all the good stuff that they do have. Yeah. And then, you know, it's all about perspective. Millionaires kill themselves, you know? Yeah. It's not about money, you know, it's about not getting tricked into over focusing on the, on the, what you don't have, and being happy for what you do have.Agree. Yeah. Now before we dive deeper into the United Nations, the last question that I had about your more like personal life was do you ever think about like, where you got h i v from, you know, how you contracted it, who gave it to you, or [00:27:00] you got it from a needle? Like, do you ever think about that or do you have closure on that?Martina: Excellent question. I. Sort of forced closure on it. The truth is, I don't know a hundred percent where I got H I v. I am certain it was from a sexual encounter, unprotected sex. Only cuz I never did any drugs that involve needles cuz I'm afraid of needles. And we'll leave it at that. Not that I didn't try on plenty of other stuff, , , but that was not myThat was not my, my method of choice, party De'Vannon: on, party on, but . Martina: But none of none of those things would've put me at risk for h I V except for maybe not being in my best mental frame of reference to make good choices. But I don't know for sure. I have a pretty good idea of where and when I was exposed, and that's [00:28:00] as much as I'll ever know.And I, you know, I think one of my friends told me a story once, she's from Uganda, and she said that when a snake gets into your house, the first thing you think about is not, gosh, how did the snake get in the house? . Hmm. Let's ponder that. No, what you think about is how do I get that snake out of my house and get it away as far away as possible, so it's not gonna come back.Right. You're not thinking about like, how does it get in? That's sort of a, a luxury to think about in a way when you have to fight, you know, the virus is very much a real live living thing in your body. That's the thing that's more important to worry about. At least for me that has held true that I sort of, I've pondered it and probably more at the beginning, but as time has passed, like it doesn't matter.I have it. I gotta deal with it and move forward. [00:29:00]De'Vannon: Oh, to move forward. Some days it's easier. Some days it almost seems impossible, but move forward, we must move forward, we shall.No. I have one more question before we move on to the un. Okay. In your book, I was reading, and you're very, very transparent about how you, while you didn't judge like the gay men or anything like that in according to your head knowledge, you really didn't think as being like a, a straight woman, that it was something that you were at risk for, you thought.I believe in your book, you said you thought you were like immune to it or like it could not impact you. So what do you have to say to people to this day who might still be laboring under the delusion that it's, you know, a disease for those people over there? Or , you know? Martina: Yeah. Well I think I mean, we can take a lesson from Covid.A virus does not care who you are, what you look like, or you [00:30:00] know how you get it. They just want you to get it and live in your body and mess things up. So anybody can get H I V. It's has nothing to do with who you are. If you're a good person, a bad person, or you're smelly or you have green eyes or left-handed.It has nothing to do with any of that stuff. It is a virus and anybody can get it, and I think that in this country, . I mean, certainly in 2023 we barely hear about H I V at all anymore. It's my perception. And that's even as somebody who's in the world of H I V right? It's just, it's not like out there in the public discourse like it used to be.And I think that that's like on one hand you don't want to alarm people unnecessarily. Blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, I don't think that we're giving people an accurate reflection of the fact that it could be any, anybody. You know, it's a [00:31:00] virus. Anybody can contract it given the correct circumstances.And globally, more than half of the people living with H I V are women. . And I think most people don't know that either. There is a perception to this day that it is just a gay man's disease, which is complete nonsense. It is a human being's disease, and I think that's a really important thing. And again, if we can learn anything from Covid, it is that viruses do not discriminate and neither should we.De'Vannon: No, we absolutely should not. And. . So, so let's shift gears to the, to the UN here. So you were the first openly H I V positive person you worked for UN AIDS in 1996. Mm-hmm. . How does that feel? Martina: It feels like, and, and it's sort of what prompted me to write the book is that I feel like I [00:32:00] own this little teeny, tiny piece of the history of the AIDS pandemic.And if I didn't tell the story, nobody would or could, cuz it's my story. I look back at it now as an extraordinary sort of privilege to have had that, that position at the time. It felt like a nightmare cause I, you know, I was hired to have my job. NGO liaison. So I was the person who linking all of the nonprofits around the world working on h i v to our program, which is a huge job all by itself.But what I felt my job was, was to be sort of the voice of reason in-house and call everybody to task on the work and say, you're not considering the needs of people living with H I v. You're just thinking of this as a scientist, or you're thinking of this as. Communication specialist, but you're not considering What are our needs in our job at U N A S is to serve people with h i v first and foremost.And so I was sort of like the in-house [00:33:00] act up yelling and screaming all the time. And it was a, it was a crazy job. It was so hard. And I put a lot of that pressure on myself, but it was also kind of weird because as the first person, , I felt like some of my community thought that I had sort of sold out and gone to the, to the UN more as a self-serving, you know, this is a great job and it was.It was a great job. Had a nice salary. I moved to Switzerland. You know, all of these extraordinary things happened, but I was sort of alienated from my community in a way cuz I was the only person there. And it took a while to sort. Earn their trust again, that I was doing something that was actually helpful to them because I think they were also watching me seeing like, okay, is she actually gonna be there and do what she's supposed to do and stand up for all of us?Or is she just gonna sort of settle in and go, cool, [00:34:00] I like this big salary, I'm just gonna float coast, not really do the job that I could be doing. So it was, it was really. , it was a lot to take on. And this is just four years after I'd found out I had H I V and I hadn't really processed it all internally like I probably should have.But again, I just sort of like launched myself into space to take on this huge job. And it was a lot. But again, I look back at it now all these years later and I just feel like I was really lucky and. above all, hope that I did the right stuff and made sure that in those early days of unaids, which very much changed the way the UN responded to the pandemic, that I helped to keep them honest a little bit.Do De'Vannon: you feel like any of the policies you created [00:35:00] impacted not just the organization within the United Nations? Do you think any of those, any of your work filtered down? are most, you know, local communities. Martina: I, I do. And I would say not so much the work at unaids, but the next sort of big job that I had with the UN was a few, few years later with UNICEF and I was the h I V in the workplace coordinator.I don't know what my title was, but that was my job, was to make sure that UNICEF had an h i v in the workplace program for all of the countries where we work. and that means implementing programming so that all of the personnel who work in any given office were getting education around H I V. That ultimately morphed into a UN system-wide program.So the entire UN system in, you know, 160 countries where we work, and tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of [00:36:00] people ultimately were exposed to those trainings because it was a mandatory program. and that I know made a difference because the way we were approaching it was, you know, you have to go through this training and maybe you feel like you don't need this training because you're, you don't perceive you have any risk of getting H I V, but we wanna make sure that you know how to educate the other people in your life and your kids and grandkids and so on and so forth.So it trickled down in that way, into communities. . Which was amazing. I also know that it helped in the sense that our program staff, like for example, somebody who worked in the accounting office in one country, she was afraid to have people who were hired to work for us come to her office to collect their checks cuz she was just didn't want people with h I V in her office cuz she just mm-hmm.wasn't, you know, educated. [00:37:00] Right. . And so it was holding up program work and once we started doing the training, she's like, oh, okay, now I realize I have nothing to worry about. I am not at risk. They can come to my office. They're just picking up a check. It is not a big deal. It allowed the work to move forward and for her to be more comfortable and in turn other people in the office to be more comfortable.And you know, it's, it sort of sounds like a little tiny nitpicky example, but it actually ended up making a big difference for the programming in that. and it also, we were finally sort of modeling what we were supposed to do as a un. And so we were able to influence governments and local businesses and say, look, we have an H I V in the workplace program.You should too. Can we help you set one up? . And so I know that, you know, it clearly hasn't fixed everything by any means, but it made a difference, at least a small difference in lasting ways. And that program is like officially [00:38:00] doesn't have a team dedicated to it anymore cuz it's been going for so long.But I know that the work is still happening and country offices are still doing trainings and making sure that we have. Respect also for our own personnel living with H I V, and it's really changed the whole way that the UN approaches staff wellbeing. It made it easier for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer people to be out in the office, which is a huge thing.Maybe they couldn't be in their own lives, but at least in the family of the United Nation system, it's better than it was. It's still not perfect. , but all of that work like made the UN a better employee, in my opinion. De'Vannon: I think I would concur with your opinion because it sounds like your work, like you said, they don't have dedicated teams, but it's been around for so long.It's some [00:39:00] it's, it almost sounds like it's been ingrained into the subconscious culture of. In. So is it its own living organism? I mean, there's nothing more you could ask for. I mean, what an honor and a compliment . Martina: Yeah, yeah. No, no, absolutely. And it, it's, I'm really, really proud of that work. . I feel like I was so lucky to be a part of the team that did the work.And again, I was like one of the people holding everybody accountable and saying, you know, we need to have the right priorities. And it was really hard to do because the UN is such a big bureaucracy, but we did it and it's, as you say, it's, it's ingrained into the culture now and De'Vannon: Oh, beautiful. And I wanna give a shout out to unicef, who you mentioned, and they do great work for kids.Yeah. Globally. That is, that's my favorite nonprofit of all the nonprofits and all the nine realms [00:40:00] because Cause I just, I just fucking love children. And they're just so like, , it's just simple to talk to a kid. Mm-hmm. , you know, when I, when I get tired of grown up bullshit and faking this, and they feel like they have to do this, I go talk to one of two people, either homeless people or a child, because mm-hmm.they don't have a, they're, they have no motivation to be anything other than what they are. And I used homeless before, and so that's where I got this, this, this from, you know, extended. , you know, conversation with homeless people, which I used to talk to 'em before became homeless. But those two, I just go fucking find me a, a fucking seven year old to talk to, just to get some common damn sins from them.Yeah, yeah, Martina: absolutely. De'Vannon: Absolutely. And so [00:41:00] did you ever come across any like opposition that you, when you were trying to. two cuz really what you were trying to push was love and open-mindedness to an organization that's already supposed to stand for that. And we all know it doesn't matter what church somebody goes to run to or what.Nonprofit that has a big ideal that it stands for. Those bitches are there at work because they're trying to get paid primarily. Mm-hmm. completely different. If you've been somebody who has gone through something that your organization services, but your main reason is to get paid, people go to church to save their own souls, they're not going there to help you.They're gonna help themselves. Mm-hmm. . And so, so when, so when they're confronted, with somebody who has H I V or somebody who is the polar opposite of them. Then there's that gut check moment. Okay, so you work for the un, you are all about hu you know, human service, you know, helping people. Or you go to your church or whatever, supposed to be about the same thing.Now will you close the door in their face? You [00:42:00] don't wanna give them a check, you know, so you, so you know the. You know what your company stands for. You know, you recited the creeds and the core values, but when it came down to it, you couldn't deliver . So it's all great when it's an idea, but when you actually have someone in need standing in front of you, Then what the hell do you do?This person you had to help them do what they signed up to do. . Mm-hmm. . That's very, very big of you. . Cause you, you could have gone in there and cussed the bitch out, you know, and been like, what the hell is your problem? But you took the high road and you showed you shared love. I just wanted to point that out, that that's, this is a really, , you know, a stretch for you to have to do this.F E U N, of all places . Martina: So, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I tried really [00:43:00] hard to always come at it with love and understanding that, you know, everybody, not everybody knows all the stuff that we know about H I V. . And if you're hired as an accountant, that is, you don't have a background in public health. You know, why would you know all of this stuff?Right? So I was sort of trying to be compassionate that everybody's learning this information at some point for the first time, and maybe I'm the person teaching them for the first time. But I can also tell you , had my moments . I, on my, on my very last training that I did for UNICEF before I, I left I was doing this workshop and it was in the middle.which is a tricky region to talk about anything around sex to start with. And it was specifically, we were, we had a people from countries that were in conflict. So these [00:44:00] people already are like, I have so much to think about. H I V in the workplace is really the last thing on my mind. So they were like, maybe okay to be there.They're not really against it, but at the same time they're like, why is, why do I have to do this? and then one woman. I said, we're gonna talk about how we're gonna get condoms in your offices, because that was one of the mandatory principles of our workplace program is that even if you have 'em in a basket in the kitchen, Where it's in a closet next to the, you know, to the sugar packets, and only the staff knows that they're there.They have to be somewhere, because if we don't make them available, then staff who are afraid to go to the store and buy them themselves, or they can't, for whatever reason, you know, we make sure that at least they're available and hopeful. breaking down the stigma associated with condoms, right? So I had one woman in this one training who basically said, we can't do that because it just promotes immoral [00:45:00] behavior of it, it increases the immoral behavior of bad people, basically, is what she said.I was just like, woo.I lost it and it was my last training and I had told them at the beginning that this would be my last training and I was leaving UNICEF to go on and do other things. And at that moment I took off my glasses and I said, I didn't tell you why. , I'm leaving unicef. But part of why is cuz I can't listen to people like you anymore.And everybody else in the room was just like, oh, no, she didn't. No, she didn't. Oh my God. and I, yeah. I was just like, oh Lord, what did I just do? But at the end of the day, , the other people in the room were like, thank you so much, because she is a pain in a neck and she's always fighting us on this condom issue.And you [00:46:00] have the luxury that at the end of the week you get on a plane and you leave. , you don't have to work with her anymore, but you've said to her what? We can't. And so apparently the fact that I kind of blew up on this woman ultimately was helpful. But I also, you know, I was just like, I can't, I can't make up these stories anymore.I can't pretend to be nice to you when you are being ridiculous. It's like, it's not up to you. You, we have to do this period, end of. Figure it out. And she eventually, she sort of said, okay, I morally I can't contribute to this, but I will not fight it, and I will put my energy into other parts of the work and let other people focus on that part because I, I'm not comfortable with it.And I'm like, , okay. There's a team in every office if you're not gonna take on that part, but you will not block it. I can live with that. And I had that, that was probably the worst one. But I've had, had a lot of other [00:47:00] moments where there was another guy in Venezuela who was basically blaming the H I v rates In Columbia, or no, on in ve I can't remember which direction.But in any case, he's, he was, I guess he was from Venezuela working in Colombia, and he was blaming the rates of H I V in Venezuela, on Colombians being bad, dirty people. And I also called him out and I was like, HKI, use me . And I yelled at him in a meeting and he was mortified. And I, I guess the next day he said, you know, that woman from u n a, she's short, but she's mean.And I felt like, good, I did my job . You know, he heard me and he, he heard me. That's what mattered. People De'Vannon: like them. Both of them are stupid bitches, you know? It just is what it is. And they're also. , they carry the spirit of a [00:48:00] bully. Yeah. You know, who are just, they're consumed with their own point of view and as far as they're concerned, if you don't see any given thing like them, then you are wrong.And that, and that's just the end of it for them. And they keep pushing people around and pushing people around till someone does like you. And I think our homegirl miss Elektra from Pose would. Quite impressed with the read, cuz you basically read them for Phil and nobody has ever read anybody quite like a lecture, Vo and so , you know, and they keep, they keep badgering and abusing people until somebody slaps them across the fucking face, metaphorically speaking, you know, like you did, you know, gonna.and evolve are they're gonna just lean more into it. Yeah. That you can't do. Yeah. But Godammit, sometimes shit needs to be said. This is why I had to leave the workplaces. I can't deal with dumb bitches like that and not say something. I'm like, oh, hell no. Maybe it's my P T S D or [00:49:00]whatever. But, you know, veterans, us veterans with ptsd, T S D, we not gonna take no shit off of you.You like bet you said what? Oh, no, no, no. . Like . Yeah. Martina: No, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and you know, at the end of the day, if we don't stand up and say something, you're doing a disservice to other people. You know? I think it is, like, for me, I felt like it, it is my duty. I am in a position where I can talk back to this person.because of my, you know, sort of my role in the system. The other people in this room cannot, cuz they're not in the same position. And if I don't, then I have let them all down. De'Vannon: Right. And so I think you did well. So, so, so y'all, her book is like, like you mentioned earlier, you know, you got to live. , you know, with these people we're talking about cultural infusion, you know, reading through it is kind of like a very detailed travel guide.You know, you mentioned like your Ugandan friend. I, I [00:50:00] appreciated the story you had in there. About your time. It's like you're asleep and you're thinking a hut, and they come in there, they wake you up to go look at the stars and you gotta shake your shoe out to be sure no scorpions or whatever. You gotta put your shoes on, you gotta step on any snakes.You know, it's like, it's like going from, you know, country to country and place to place, but deeper. It's not just look at all the pretty, but this is what's like, what's really going on. I did a missions trip to The Bahamas years ago. . And what struck me was that, you know, all the brochures and everything, crystal, Clearwater beaches and everything, but when we got back there into the schools where these people live and everything, abject, poverty, you know?Mm-hmm. never spoken of, you know, and all the brochures and everything like that. And I felt, I like lied to and just like, like I wasn't giving the whole truth. And like those people hadn't been marginalized cuz they're not talked about. Mm-hmm. . And so what I love about your book is that you give. , you know, the realness, you know, in all of these different places.So it's a, [00:51:00] so who, who, who is your target audience for, for your book and what do you hope people gain from it? Martina: This is a million dollar question. I. . I'm still trying to figure this out because like my initial thought was obviously people who work in the UN will find it interesting cuz they've had a similar experience.I think people with H I V will find it interesting because they have had a similar experience. Mm-hmm. . Beyond that, I feel like it's the target AR audience is probably just people who care about the world. which I would love to think was everybody, but is not actually everybody , but people who care about the world, who are curious how the UN works who have survived some other traumatic thing.It doesn't have to be h I V but dealt with another life-threatening disease or, you know, just some other traumatic event where you feel like in that moment you're not gonna get through it, but in the end you are.[00:52:00]and I guess what I really hope people take away from it, to me the most important thing is that everybody knows that they can do something to make the world better, even if it is just smiling to somebody or holding the door for somebody that you don't have to hold the door for or being kind to, you know, the person who looks like they're having a really shitty day and saying, can I help you?Do you need something, you know? Little tiny acts of kindness all add up. And if we all did more of them, then I think the world would be a better place. But but also that, you know, the little things matter, but that don't be afraid to take on bigger things too, that we can all make a difference in the world.I really, truly believe that. De'Vannon: I concur and I think like one of the opening quotes in your, in your book was from, [00:53:00] I wanna say maybe Gandhi. And it was like if you don't, if you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping, you know, next to a mosquito. Yeah. That's sad. Lama Lama. Sorry. Yeah.Yeah. So. And so, so I thought that that was very interesting. Y'all, her book, you know, the woman's been through a lot. You know, the, there's an abusive marriage, there's a fostering of a believe a teenager, you know, there's a lot more than just H I V and AIDS and traveling. It's a very, very transparent read that I feel like can touch you on many different levels.You know, whoever may be listening. So then the last two questions that we have. Mm-hmm. , turn the floor over to you for your last words. We're gonna talk about. Is there any sort of specific h I V AIDS implications just specific to women that you might like to talk about? Martina: Oh, that's a good question. So I think for women the whole issue around reproductive [00:54:00] health is a huge one that, you know, for, for many women, younger women, they wanna have children and to know.In 2023. That is something that women can do safely if they're in good care and they're very affordable treatments to, to ensure that the baby is not born with h I v. They work and in North America, Western Europe, almost no babies are born with H I V anymore. So that is really a positive thing. And obviously parenthood involves two people generally, but.For the woman carrying the child. That's a really important thing to know. I think that h I v probably impacts women throughout our lives, you know, as we go through menopause and other things as well. But there's not as much research as we'd like on all of that. But I think. Probably the most important thing for women is to think about [00:55:00] the reproductive health issues and just to make sure that they don't let their doctors say, well, this works in men.It's fine for you. Make sure that you learn as much as you can, and don't hesitate to call 'em out on it and say, but are you certain, have there been research studies involving women or has this only been tested on men? Prove to me that this is gonna work for me in a smaller body. If, like in my case, I'm, I'm five four, I'm a smaller person than a six foot man, right?So I need to have the empowerment to know that it's okay to ask my doctor, are you sure this is also going to work for me in the same way and prove it, you know, sort of like, don't just say yes, show me the data, sort of thing. I think that's really important. And I think also that the stigma is different in the sense that people still don't understand that women get H I V.And so there's a lot of like slut [00:56:00] shaming associated with the diagnosis where people assume if you've got h I v, you must be some sort of awful, terrible sexual being and how dare you and it's your fault. And I suspect that happens with everybody that gets H I V, but I know that it happens with women in a, in a very specific kind of way.And and just know if that happens, if you get H I V and you're a woman, that that's not true. You are a human being. It's a virus. and don't, don't believe the stories that people tell you about yourself. Believe your own story.De'Vannon: Like, like, Lord, help me like, like Mama RuPaul says, unless they pay in your bills, pay them bitches. No mind. Yeah. Unless they pay in your bills. Pay them bitches. No mind. Cause people always got a fucking opinion about every goddamn thing besides themselves. . And then, so then the last thing, world AIDS Day stood out to me, my research to [00:57:00] you of you, this, this, this, this has been the case since December 1st, 1988.And so is there anything you'd like to say about World AIDS Day and what that means to you? Ooh Martina: You know, it's kind of like. At this point, it's I think it is a day that we kind of do lip service to the pandemic. And while I think it's great that people do events on World AID'S Day to focus our attention, make sure that it is being talked about in our communities I think people need to remember that there are the other.What, 364 days of the year that we're all still living with H I v. And you know, I thought about this yesterday with, with Valentine's Day. I was explaining to somebody who's from another country about Valentine's Day here, and I said, you know, it's, it's sort of a cute. cheesy holiday and we like heart-shaped candy if we like candy.But it's also complete nonsense because [00:58:00] if you love somebody, you don't have to wait till February 14th to tell them that. Right. . It should be a daily thing. And I think the same for World AIDS Day that I I have a real. Love hate relationship with the day. Like part of me wants to support activities and events.Part of me hates the day and wants to just, you know, skip it and talk again on December 2nd cuz I don't wanna think about it cuz it's not a, it's not a joyful day. It is it's a day of a somber remembrance to me. You know, it's remembering all the people who aren't here to celebrate it or not to observe it.I should say, not celebrate, but that's my feeling on world eight's day. Yeah, De'Vannon: I can imagine that it would be triggering, excuse me, like triggering as hell. So, So everyone make up your own damn mind about World Aids Day? I'm kind of over like pretty much every holiday at this point. Yeah. Cause [00:59:00] they're either fake or overly commercialized or whatever the hell the case may be.So I'm just like, just fuck it all. And so in terms of holidays, but still show love to people on every day. Exactly. Whether it's Christmas or you know, and, and give a damn about Jesus. Even if it's not Easter . Yeah. Who the fuck exactly. Fucking bunnies. I don't want to get started on that. . It is almost Easter.And so, so thank you so much for coming on the show. Any last words that you have? Wait a minute, y'all. Her website is martina clark.com. I'm gonna put all this in the show. The book again, is My Unexpected Life at an international memoir of two Pandemics, h i v, and Covid. 19. She's on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, you name it, she's there.All of this will go in the show notes as always. So, Thank you for being such an incredible [01:00:00]guest. If there's any last words you'd like to say to the world, say it and then you'll close us out with that. Martina: Oh my goodness. No pressure. I would just say thank you and, and again, thank you for all that you're doing, for putting good stuff out into the world.I really appreciate you and for the listeners, you know, you can be one of those people who puts good stuff out into the world. So do it. Thank you so much.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your [01:01:00] host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

De'Vannon Hubert is the author of Sex, Drugs and Jesus, a memoir about his struggles with drug addiction, drug dealing, homelessness, serving in the Armed Forces, contracting HIV and HEP B, and rejection from his church for his sexuality. De'Vannon is also the author of Don't Call Me A Christian, a book about his views on the catastrophe that is modern Christianity. De'Vannon also hosts a podcast - Sex, Drugs and Jesus and is the founder of Down Under Apparel - a lingerie brand for men and women. Among many of the milestones in his life, De'Vannon is also an Honorably discharged veteran of the United States Air Force. His story is one of survival, salvation and sass and one we could all learn from, no matter our path in life. This podcast is brought to you by Ethical Change Agency. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

INTRODUCTION: Frank M. Ligons, MS specializes in exploring the benefits, safety, and payment strategies regarding Ketamine treatment in addressing mental, physical, and addiction-related illness. His three years of ketamine treatment as apatient, combined with his medical background, give audiences harrowing andhopeful insights into this extraordinary therapy. After 25 years of suicidal thoughts and dozens of medications, Frank stumbled upon a psychiatric treatment he had never heard of: low-dose intravenous ketamine. Since all else failed, any treatment he hadn't heard of must be worth a try. After exhausting decades fighting for his life inthe conventional psychiatric medication system, ketamine removed those deadlyideations that claimed his grandmother's life when he was a young child. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Special K YaY!!!·      Medical & Doctoral Dependency ·      Origins Of Ketamine·      Uses Of Ketamine Therapy·      Military Implications·      Treatment Resistant Mental Health Issues·      What Is A K Hole?·      The Failed War On Drugs·      Addiction Risk Of Ketamine  CONNECT WITH FRANK: Website: https://findketamine.comBook: https://amzn.to/3ZYUOzsLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankmligons/  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:   https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Frank M. Ligons[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Frank Liggins is the author of the groundbreaking book, IV Ketamine Infusion Therapy for Depression. Why I Tried It, what It's Like, and If It Worked, baby. Yes. Now Frank is here with me today because he specializes in in exploring the benefits, safety, and payment strategies and everything else regarding Ketamine Treat.but the particular emphasis on how ketamine can be used for addressing mental, [00:01:00] physical, and addiction related illnesses. Now, after struggling with over 25 years of suicidal thoughts and all kinds of medication, Frank found his own way to ketamine treatment in that is what has saved his life today. So please listen in and close as we dish on.how this once taboo drughas now made a new name for itself.Hello, are you beautiful souls out there? And welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host of Annan Hubert, and I got wi here with me today. My boy, Frank Liggins. Is that how we say that Liggins. Yes. Yeah, Frank Legged and he wrote a, a damn good book. It's called IV Ketamine Infusion Therapy for Depression.Why I Tried It, what it's like, and If it Worked. The best way I can describe this book is like a mixture between a high, how to guide and a medical memoir, and I've never seen this before. I think [00:02:00]it's absolutely fan fucking brilliant. And Frank, how are you today? Frank: I'm great and I'm glad to hear to be here and I'm very flattered by that intro,De'Vannon: Of course. So go right ahead and tell us about like your education. You have a very interesting degree and I want you to tell us about like your Frank: learning. Yeah, absolutely. I guess my most recent education is, is in, you know, medicine. I have a master's of science in, it's called biomedical Informatics.And one of the things that has been really helpful from having that background is me being able to read and sort through medical studies on my own and be able to report those to people in more of a down to earth De'Vannon: language. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head with the down to earth language because we always wanna be able to talk to people at the level where [00:03:00] they're at.No sense in having all this complex information, if we can't break it the fuck down, like Charlie fucking Brown and give it right in a way that they can fucking use. So, so, you know, you know, the title of this show is Sex, drugs and Jesus. So I, you know, we're gonna be talking about drugs, man, drugs and You know, normally, normally I would ask for like, some sort of client success story, but you know, you really are like your own success story in this, in this space here that we're working in. And. From, from one of the, one of the chapters in your book. One called, but I've tried it all. Mm-hmm. , you were going through this here in this chapter, you're telling us about how you had to take all this medicine as a kid, and then it's, it's followed you into college and you were saying about the side effects of the [00:04:00] medicine.Gave you like fatigue, chronic fatigue, O c d, depression, and, and then this chapter you were talking about how you hate having to take medicine, but the reality is, is that some people really have to be on something or they need to take something. And you said, and I quote, I resent being such a loyal pharmaceutical customer end quote,So talk to me about, because I feel like a lot of people are like this. I've seen people tilting bags of pills around and it's almost like people become a slave to medication. And so what are your thoughts on that? Frank: Sure. I mean, that's a good question because I think it's one of those things that I'm not sure that it gets enough talk or, or let's say it doesn't get enough talk upfront.You know, usually you go to the, you know, your doctor, they prescribe you something, you know, for your symptoms. But rarely [00:05:00] do you get the whole, you know, dictionary of the things that you may be dealing with right. As side effects. So you know, a lot of us find that. kind of too late. You know, you're, you, well you're already kind of hooked into the system.But yeah, I mean, I, I mean, for, for most people I know, including myself, that, that have needed like psychiatric medications. It, it, it's really a love and hate situation, you know? And frequently people will go back and forth, you know. , you're on it, maybe you get, you know, some relief, but then you get fed up with the side effects and then you try to cut back.But then you unfortunately discover that you know, you can't function at that level. And before you know it, you're like, me, I just was out of town and I have to carry like 20 pill bottles, like [00:06:00]in. and my sack as I go through security, and they look at me very oddly, because they're thinking, you know, what's a legitimate use of those?So many med, you know, prescription bottles. So yeah, I think it's a tough topic for everyone. I wish people were more open about it and felt more comfortable so that they could realize they're not.De'Vannon: I personally think some people take a psychological they, they, they garner a certain psychological. Pseudo comfort or I guess in their mind a true comfort for for going to see a doctor. Cuz a doctor is almost like, you know, you're not exactly gonna get like a spa treatment or anything like that, but anytime we're being tended to by another human being, there's cer certain sort of like pampered Yeah.Feeling that goes along with [00:07:00] it. And I really think some people. Like going to talk to the doctor, may don't have anyone else to talk to, but this person is there to quote unquote care for them. And it is still a form of affection. And, and so do you think that there's any sort of, look and we're not psychotherapists here, y'all, I'm kicking around what I feel like the spirit is revealing to me.I'm not, you know, this is, this is the, the, this is coming from within. and from I like it. So do you think there's any sort of like emotional need that people are feeling by going to these doctors and, Frank: yeah, I mean, I think that's an excellent question. And, and really one that no one ever asked me, people don't generally talk about, but yeah, I think there are two facets to that.One is, you know, there's a. , you know, when you're suffering in some way, there's a I think an instinct to wanna find some control over [00:08:00] that, to kind of take some steps to feel like you're not just floating into disaster. And so, you know, when you have a medical issue or a psychiatric issue, I think one of the things you're, you're just, you know, grasping for someone to say, I have some idea what's wrong with you, and I may be able to help.So I think. , there's, you know, just kind of that, you know, instinctual survival. And then I think also, like you alluded to is, you know, and this can vary I think, between providers. So like for instance, you know, when we talk about therapists, I've noticed over the years that therapists fall all over the spectrum.And in other words, there's therapists that are kind of almost just like your friend. You know, it's kind of like you just go, you talk about what happened that. and you know, they kind of absorb that or just kind of be a, you know, a sounding board. And then there are therapists that are like very, you know, action oriented who [00:09:00] have, you know, very specific plan.They want to teach you specific skills and they're basically like, Hey, you know, when you're ready to act on these skills, like you'll get results. But like, I, I'm other, otherwise us just talking about it isn't gonna help you. So, you know. But yeah, I, I, I mean, I think you're right. I know plenty of people all over the scale.I've been on the scale in various places. I just think you need to be honest with yourself because, you know, if you're going to a place that's just talking to you, but you're not making any progress, you know, that's, that could be problematic. De'Vannon: And I think that goes for. MDs, like general practitioners, medical doctors, and psychological doctors.Sure. Basically what Frank and I are saying is if you're going to these doctors and you're, you're not really getting healed and cured, then perhaps you should reevaluate and consider why you're [00:10:00] really going. Absolutely. Because switching the medication around, like they try to do what's at the va, the Department of Veterans Affairs, where I.You know, you go and sit in there, you talk to the doctor for 30 minutes and it's like, what drugs are you on? Shall we up the dosage or change it? Those are really the only questions they give a fuck about an asking you . So that's why you see veterans toting 20 pill bottles around and everything like that.It's common, yeah. Common at the va. And so we're saying, why are you going? There's people in my family who are like, . So regular at the doctor, they should have like a gold v i p card in their own fucking parking spot outside with their team on it. . But I'm like, is shit really getting fixed? Right? And so then that's where, that's where ketamine comes in.So right off the bat, what if somebody goes, well, is it ketamine a drug just like all the other drugs? What's the Frank: difference? Yeah, so Ketamine actually [00:11:00] was developed in the 1960s. And one like little piece of trivia that's interesting is it was designed to be an improvement on P C P. So , De'Vannon: hell yeah. Yeah.What's going Frank: on? ? With a medical, you know, facility had, you know, developed pcp. The thing is they found out there were a lot of side effects, right? So they start working on, you know, how can we, you know, get a sedative that we can use for surgery and such, and a pain reliever that people may not react as dramatically too.And so they came up with that in the early sixties and there was, you know, a lot of excitement about it because now. They had, you know, you know what we would, you know, call a, you know, a hypnotic sedative, [00:12:00] which you could use reliably on people that was, you know, very safe. You know, they're very, you know, few serious side effects, if any.They're, they're usually very brief and actually, while this was, you know, kind of growing in the surgical domain, it was getting a lot of attention. on the battlefield because in war situations and war time situations, you know, when you have you know, people literally out on a field, you know, being shot and injured in different ways, you know what's, what's something kind of easy, safe.That will meet the needs of us, like, you know, trying to help people right then, you know, how can we calm them down? How can we lessen their trauma in the moment? How can we you know, relieve pain? And so, you know, this ketamine comes along and, you know, all of a sudden, you know, the battlefield, [00:13:00] you know, medical community was like, wow, you know, this actually has a lot going for it.That's how it all started before the days of all the innovative uses we're using it for De'Vannon: now. So, so you're telling me it started on the battlefield before it made its way into like vets offices. Yes. Frank: Yes, exactly. Yeah. So a lot anesthesiologists and like battlefield, you know, trauma, medical personnel were using De'Vannon: at.right? Cause a lot of people know it as like horse tranquilizer, but you know, it has more implications than just dosing horses. And so, absolutely. Frank: Yeah. I'm, I mean, it's something that, you know, with the horses, it'd be the same thing, you know, with us, like, you know, when you need to operate on a horse, you need the the same benefits, right?You need them to be sedate. You need them not to [00:14:00] be like moving and kicking around. You know, you need them you know, not being in too much pain. And so, you know, they're just another mammal, right. Like us, so that makes sense. De'Vannon: It's interesting cause, you know, crystal meth thought it out that way. I think from the Japanese army if I'm, or military if I'm not mistaken.Oh, okay. Because they needed, and I can't remember which warrant, but they needed a way to keep the soldiers up and to make them. Oh, well, basically like they wanna throw themselves a sudden death, so they, so they manufactured, you know, you know, methamphetamine, you know, and then, You know, it kind of like spiraled from there.Like, oh, look at what we have here. You know, this actually feels kind of good and you know, and so the government has probably created most, if not all of these fucking drugs that they now want to call illegal. So I'm like, you did it, bitch. So just [00:15:00] illegal it now legalize it all and be done with it. Right, right.Ketamine, to my knowledge, is now legal across the United States. Frank: It's legal though by pres. . But yes, like anyone that has licensing, you know, privileges. And that's like every type of physician, right? Like, so that could be an MD psychiatrist, it could be, you know, an internist, a cardiologist. Anybody that can write prescriptions can write one for ketamine.De'Vannon: Okay? So what he's saying is this, this is regulated by the dea. It is, fuck the dea. I'm gonna say it again. Fuck the dea. But so that means that I cannot decide I wanna be a drug dealer again and go toting around jugs of ketamine or whatever. And that's unfortunately not man , but you, you can go, you can go to Oregon and get you some ketamine.I do believe that that's a part of their measure one then that they passed. Oh really? But it is still illegal to [00:16:00] sell or deal or whatever the fuck they're doing over in Oregon. But so. . So Ketamine, ketamine, ketamine. How is so you, so you tried ketamine. So let's talk about your personal success story with this.So you were the guy on all the drugs and stuff like that, the different 20 pills. Are you still on the 20 pills now? I'm on, Frank: trying to think what I'm on now. Probably, I think I'm probably on about six pills. About half of which are to counteract the side effects of like the first three pills, . So yeah, still quite a few.This, this is not a cure. I wanna be clear to people about that. Like, ketamine is not a cure. That does not mean that some people don't go for ketamine treatment. And then, you know, there's a long time before they need, you know, a booster or [00:17:00] something. But you know, ketamine is I like to think of it more akin to a rescue kind of medication, right?Because you have plenty of people that you know, have, you know, treatment resistant depression, right? Like people like me who tried every drug, you know, they've been everywhere. They've done everything. But you know, still they have a deep depression and you know, That can do anything from just make their quality of life miserable to, you know, put them in danger for suicide.And so often what happens at that time is, you know, you go to a psychiatrist, Hey, we'll try, you know, something else. You know, we'll make a good faith effort, but you know, it's gonna take two months, you know, if it works at all. And you know, you're in the most horrible state of your life. And it's just like, wow.You know, how am I. Plow through another couple months [00:18:00] and you know, with no promises at the end. What's exciting about ketamine is I literally, and this isn't uncommon after 25 years of those perent suicidal thoughts, I literally went in for my first treatment and those began to dissipate. And so it was.It was shocking. It was unbelievable. And that happens to about two thirds of people with treatment resistant depression. Hmm. De'Vannon: Yeah. Cuz they turn me onto exploring this and this Ketamine is in the hallucinogenic category too, by the way. People, so there're there's, that's, that's what your L s d, your psilocybin, you know, ketamine, all of them are kind of like, well they are classified the same.Because I was watching documentaries about like veterans with like a P T S D. Yeah. [00:19:00] And depression and all of that. And you know, You know, my, my boys, you know, some of us come back from the war, all kinds of fucked up, twisted, chopped, and screwed at every goddamn thing, and talking about treatment resistant mental health issues.Oh, yeah. Can't find anything to fix people who have come back from these wars. And so, and so the, so the military and the federal government have turned to like M D M A. You know, ketamine and stuff like that. And I saw, you know, where these veterans had, they just, like, after one treatment of that, those lar, those intense symptoms like they had went away and they did not return to them.Yeah, that's crazy. And so now, does that mean that they're off of everything? Not necessarily. And I, I would imagine for some people it does, and I don't how, how, how long, how much time that takes to do. But I mean, if you're living in constant chaos every day and this could like just take that from you while you've managed the minor things, I think it's worth it rather than to go in and kill yourself.Frank: Yeah. [00:20:00] Yeah. I mean, , it's I mean, one thing about it is like, You know, ketamine, you know, when you're under the influence of you're, well, you're in this session, one thing that happens, you know, often for people, whether it's depression or P T S D, is they develop a new perspective on their life and on their problems or on, you know, past traumatic events.And so that perspective frequently, is one of like new possibilities and you know, the, the idea of, oh, you know, there is a feeling outside of dread and and terror and, you know, sadness that I can feel. And with that perhaps I could take some next steps in my life, steps that I haven't felt up to and [00:21:00]wasn't sure if I would ever be able to.De'Vannon: That sounds good to me. I like that. , . That sounds Frank: good to me. Not bad, right? De'Vannon: Like too shabby at all? Not too shabby. I'd say . So, so ketamine therapy, when I went to go get it, it was like a fluid in, in like an IV pack. So, I have not seen this in street form, powder form. I don't know what other forms, but we're talking about like in like an official clinic now.Yeah. So you go in. I wasn't impressed with the bitch that did mine because she had me fucked up. And so I'm not gonna try this again in Louisiana because, because they're just too fucking basic down here in this state where I live. God, I know you're listening. Please send me back to Los Angeles where people make sense and they're not afraid to go hard and they get meSo I went in. Ready to hallucinate and shit. You know, I had my, yeah, yeah. Drive me up there. I'm all like, oh, I'm about to talk to [00:22:00] some ancestor. Yeah. And she did not give . I was trying, I felt nothing. I sat there with a thing in my arm and she didn't want to give me a lot, and she said she did some kind of fucked up calculation.By my standards professionally, you know, as a, as a medical professional. Cause I'm a licensed massage therapist and hypnotist myself. I understand why you would want to go into something. Yeah. With a high degree of caution. And so she does some sort of calculation based on body weight or whatever. So this shouldn't send someone into a K hole.I'm gonna ask you to describe what a keyhole is in a. But but I was like, at that time I was like 230, you know, pounds or something like that. I'm like, bitch, you need to crank up the dose here. This is a lot of weight to go around. And so I didn't feel, I felt like drunk and wooy. Yeah. I didn't feel, I didn't have any like, It was like $450 to go in there and not get what I came for.[00:23:00]Yeah. So I wasn't pleased with it, but I'm glad that you had, you know, some happy-go-lucky Smurf results. . Frank: Well, you know what I mean? It, it's a funny thing because the, like not everybody experiences like the hallucinogenic. and I would say it's probably, you know, a lot, you know, dose dependent. So like you said, I mean your story makes sense, right?You come in, you're a new patient, you get kind of the minimum standard dosage. So like you said, you know, what does that feel like? I mean, it's, for me, my first experience was, yeah, I just kind of felt kind of intoxicated. I mean, it felt good. Like I felt very. I kind of had a, you know, a feel good sensation, but I certainly wasn't like, hallucinating or felt like anything on that level, but I, but you [00:24:00] can experience a lot more of that at higher De'Vannon: doses.Well, I will have it done one more time in California, . Okay. Okay. I'm not doing this shit in Louisiana. If I, I could have taken $450 and went to go talk to homie on the corner, you could've and definitely had a fucking out-of-body experience. Oh yeah, yeah. You trying to do the right fucking thing and go to the legal clinic, everything, and I felt like I got got for my money.I feel like. Frank: But I understand that's It's a lot. It's a lot not to get, you feel like you're not getting the bang for your buck, man. Like, De'Vannon: understandable. So, so basically what y'all can take out of this is if you're gonna go get ketamine, be sure to talk to them about the dosage and find you somebody who's not afraid to take it up a bit.If you know that you have a high tolerance for narcotics and drugs and things like that. Mm-hmm. . So that's not a question that I asked him before I went. Maybe it could have been d. You know, [00:25:00]thought about it, but, Frank: and everybody's different. And like you said, like if you've had, you know, one thing I mentioned in a book is if, if you've had a lot of, you know, drug experience, like a lot of experience with various types of intoxication, I think that kind of changes like your, I mean, it, it, it, it oftentimes, I think it's a positive thing because,You know, whenever you're on a drug, particularly something like you haven't tried before, if you never spent a lot of time like being intoxicated, it can be frightening to feel like you're losing control. Right? So, you know, you're leaned back, you know, kicking in, kicking in this, you know, dark room, they got the IV hooked up and all of a sudden, you know, you kind of start to float away.Some people react very anxiously. to that. But I found on the other hand, you know, whatever, if you used to Drake and you're used to smoking, you used to, you know, whatever it is, you're like, Hey, I, you [00:26:00] know, could kind of roll with this. Like, this is a, this isn't the most challenging situation I've ever been in, De'Vannon: and I haven't done a lot of shit now.Frank: That's what I'm saying. So you're a soldier, man. I mean, literally like, you're, you're a veteran in this, you know what De'Vannon: I mean? So I need a double dose. The next time I go in, baby, Hey baby . The first time I did Shum, they took seven grams for me to, for even, it's hard to see anything hallucinogenic. And everybody that I talk to says three grams is like, they're on like the moon.I'm like, no, bitch. It took seven for the, for, for my rocket to even turn on. Oh, that's interesting. Frank: And so, yeah, you may. You may need someone that's, I mean, and it's true amongst practitioners. Some are more aggressive than others, you know? So like I've been in situations where I'm like, okay, you know, this is my, you know, third [00:27:00] treatment, whatever, can we bump it up by, you know, whatever.And you know, one practitioner will say, yeah, you know, we'll add, you know, five milligrams to that and another one they'll say, Hey, no, we'll, we'll add 10, we'll add 15. So you can definitely see a variance amongst the practitioners. De'Vannon: Okay. Now a lot of people have heard of a K hole. I've seen a person in the caho ones we were at this I would say big gay party that happens out in California and leave it at that.Okay. You know, I know he was on the couch, kinda like laying down, you know, aware, but not really. I wouldn't say he was in a state of panic. Nobody seemed to need to call 9 1 1. You know, nothing like that. So what the fuck is a K hole ? Frank: Well, a K hole, which I guess is kind of short for Ketamine hole, is a level of [00:28:00]experience induced by ketamine.which just generally is, is regarded as like extreme. It could be really frightening. It could be really it could be like almost religious, you know, it could be like transcendent. And so first I should say there's no. official definition, there's no like blood test or something somebody could give you and say, oh yeah, he was in a K hole.A K hole is kind of more of a subjective thing. Mm-hmm. , but usually it's used in a, I don't know if I wanna say a negative. It's, it's used as keyholes aren't usually things people seek out. Okay. Because usually by the time you get to that level of dosage, Some, some difficult things can happen. You can hallucinate [00:29:00] you can feel dread, you can feel one, one section of my book, I talk about one of the keyholes that I've been in a few times which I call Six Foot Under , which is where I kind of slowly throughout the session, feel like I'm like being buried alive and I'm kind of underground and everything's really quiet.I kind of have this visual sense of, of dirt kind of being thrown over me. Things are getting really calm and, but like as that, as that, you know, that experience develops if you're not used to it or if you've never encountered. That was very frightening because I, after a while, I started to feel like, whoa, you know, am I gonna be able to like wake up from this?Or like, is something. , you know, really serious happening. Like, am I gonna like die in my dream and like die reali? Like, [00:30:00] I don't know what was going on myself. So there are keyhole themes that people sometimes have and and some of them overlap. Like I, I've heard the Buried Alive thing before. But I've had other bizarre ones too.Like there's I'm trying to think. For me, they usually have to do with somehow. Being stuck or being somehow like incapacitated and, you know, we could do the, the arm share, psychologist, maybe you could tell me what that means. But yeah, overall though, I'd say K holds, they're not to be frightened of.Like they're not gonna hurt you. They're not gonna give you any lasting injury or anything basically. , you know, that's gonna be gone, you know, in a few minutes or whatever. Or you can call the nurse and they can really precipitate, you know, dropping that effect down. De'Vannon: So a keyhole is [00:31:00] not to be confused like an overdose?Frank: No. I mean, some people, I guess like an overdose I would say is, is kind of more of a medical, more of a fixed medical term, saying that you've hit like a level of toxicity. that's now like threatening your body in some way. This isn't necessarily that, but I guess you could pass through the K hole stage on your way to an overdoseSo it's not like something where you just want to be just, you know, sniffing K in your basement and pay no mind to the, you know, the dosage and what not. You're getting, like thinking that you. Having the keyholes, the worst that could happen. That's not the worst that could happen if you go too far.De'Vannon: Okay, so that is wanted to establish, you know that there is such a thing as an overdose, so you can do too much. The keyhole is not an overdose level and so [00:32:00] this is another reason why it's good to do it in a medical facility. and everything like that, so that like, as he said, they can precipitate it, you know, they can come there and put some other shit in your IV to pull you out of it.if they need to. Exactly. Exactly. Frank: You know, they'll throw you to lifeline if you need it, you know. But I guess like to your point of, you know, I guess expanding on that, you know, for my book I interviewed, you know, a recreational user. Of Ketamine to, to kind of get a sense of, you know, why they did it, what they got out of it, how they handled the safety aspects.And the thing about this, you know, particular person was that they were they were very detail oriented and very kind of systematic in their approach. So they actually like did research. , you know, they checked out the source, you know, they [00:33:00] you know, they, of course they started small, they tracked like all their dosages and when they would take them and over what period they would have different effects.So like, this person wasn't like, you know, The average person, this wasn't like a 13 year old, just like, oh, we got a bag of K, let's just start sniffing. I mean, this guy was like, he approached it, you know, basically like a physician. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why, you know, to him he reports, you know, having a lot of great experiences.things that opened him up. Like particularly like when it came to his emotions and he really nev, he never really had any trouble. So I mean, obviously I can't recommend that, but I can report that that's, that's what a real live recreational user explained to me.De'Vannon: That is, you know what? . [00:34:00] We all have our reasons to be there. , we all had our reasons. Yep. And people, you know, you know, we're like drawn to certain drugs, you know, I like, I tried like heroin, hated heroin. Can't can't, can des get as fuck away from me, the yuckiest shit on the earth. But homeboy can't get enough of fucking heroin.I try. I was, you know, a meth party girl. Really? So, Why it's no different than if you go to a fucking buffet and you like the Hawaiian rolls. Yeah, but you don't like the rye bread. You don't know why the fuck you are drawn to certain things fully because we don't know ourselves that deeply. Not, not to that level.Like we don't know why we prefer the color red over green. A lot of this shit is decided before we're born. Right. And so I'm saying all that to say this is why we don't judge people children . So, so you know, you have your vice, people have theirs. You know I never, I never [00:35:00] tolerated when I was a drug dealer, ran my trap house that like the cocaine users who wanted to judge the heroin addict or the, or the person who wanted to smoke cigarettes and felt ashamed even though we were shooting up meth of my life.I am like we, we gotta get some shit right in our heads. People , , like literally a drug house full of every fucking narcotic known to mean syringes. Pipes, porn. And then somebody pops out a pack of Marl bros. Like, is this cool? Like, I don't wanna be offensive. Right? Right. Frank: Like, I think we can accept that, you know, we De'Vannon: could find space for Marlboros.Right. To like the crack pipe and the meth pipe. I think you'llFrank: no doubt, no doubt you, it's gonna be alright.No, you're right. You bring up a good point though. I mean, let's face it, like, one of the things that hopefully will happen is, you know, the government loosens up some of these, you know, restrictions on the research and then [00:36:00] ultimately on the use we'll learn more. , which things are useful to particular people so that you don't kind of have to go through like the smorgasboard and have, you know, maybe a bunch of experiences you don't want.You know, maybe one day it will be more enlightened where it's like, all right, you know, they, this person should, you know, just smoke some tree. This person needs this other thing. This person just needs a microdose of something else. Maybe. Maybe that's the De'Vannon: future. . I don't see why it wouldn't be, cuz half of those drugs have natural origins and roots, be it cocaine, heroin, L s D, you know, weed.Of course all of that shit starts from a plant. Yeah. And so the pharmaceuticals you get in pill form, you know, they try to say a lot of those have natural based products. They start from plants and it's true. And when they go mix all kinds of other shit in there as well. So I don't find that much difference between cocaine.[00:37:00]An appeal from the doctor cuz it's half plant and half synthetic. So what, right. . So you know what, what way? And so, right, right. . So right now, Frank and I are clapping back at this whole war against drug fuck, fuck you Republican presidents for, for starting this bullshit ass war that you knew was just about.Throwing people in jail, you put the drugs on the streets, made 'em illegal, you know, after you made your money off of it. Well, you still continue to make money off of it to this day, . Yeah, in my opinion, I have no sources to quote on that. I have read things, seen and heard many things, and you're fool think the government doesn't benefit from crime.And and so the people who run the government more precisely, can you, do you think a person can become addicted to Keta? Frank: I definitely think somebody could become addicted. I guess, you know, perhaps like a, a deeper question would be, [00:38:00] is that like gonna be a biological addiction or more of a psychological addiction?So, so on the first, you know, on the level of psychological addiction, I mean, You might say anything could become psychologically addicting, right? I mean, even going to stretching it to the point of what you're saying about getting pampered, you know, by visiting different types of practitioners. I mean, you could develop, you know, kind of a I, I, I don't know, like it is kind of like it could be a crutch, right?There's probably at some place in the spectrum where, , you know, something comes from just being a crutch to actually being like a useful, progressive type of therapy. So psychologically I think you certainly could, because y you know, generally speaking, you know, you feel good, you feel relaxed. I mean, you feel better than you do or you did coming in.So I, I think that's, you know, a factor [00:39:00] on the biological level. The way things are now, because you have to, I mean, unless you are getting it from the street the way things are now when you need to go to a clinic or you're in a clinical study or something, I think it would be very hard to become addicted in that scenario biologically, just because you're only getting, you know, so much and with a certain frequency.So, you know, for me, for instance, I usually go about once a. and, you know, do I look forward to that month? Or that next treatment? Yeah. I look forward to it. I mean, especially if like, I've had a difficult month or, you know, I, I feel like, whoa, you know, it really is time for a booster. I look forward to that.you know, whether that's like, do I feel drawn to it? You know, like, I'm gonna break in your house or try to, you know, sell your tv, you know, to get it. [00:40:00] I've never felt anything like that. But I will say that one thing you may find really interesting, and I, I believe I touched on this in the book, is that starting as far back as the eighties in Russia, there was a physician who.Using Ketamine to actually break people's addictions. So he was doing some work with I think heroin addicts, and I wanna say also alcoholics. And what he found based on that work is something that's actually still being used today. There are clinics now that specialize on deploying ketamine to break addiction.And so that's kind of fascinat. De'Vannon: You're damn right. And that reminds me, it's another thing I saw in those drug documentaries I was watching with they were using M D M A and maybe psilocybin two to break addictions. Okay. Yeah. And I was also going to say like [00:41:00] the addiction, a, the addiction risk is no more than say, same addiction risk when these doctors are pro prescribe you things that have addict.Qualities to them anyway. So they're prescribing you. People get addicted to pills from their doctors, then they start going, oh yeah, from doctor to doctor to get the shit. Anyway, so I'm saying like there's no more risk with ketamine than it is with the shit you're getting from the doctor anyway. Frank: So, yeah, I mean, practically speaking, like when you look at the opioid epidemic, right?Mm-hmm. I mean, there are a whole, there are, you know, , I'm not sure what the current number of people is that, that, that are hooked on opioids. But I mean, like you said, it's a good point. I mean, if you're, if you know, how can we com be concerned about one and, and not the other, that's like, you know, literally like a tidal wave of deathDe'Vannon: Right. And I think it's so cool. to use one drug to counteract another. But I mean, you see [00:42:00] that all the time. Just like we were saying, if somebody were to fall into a ca hole, they would put just a different drug into your system. Yeah. To counteract that. So if you're addicted to meth and you use M D M A or ketamine and or shrooms to overcome it, it's the same damn thing.You use one drug to counter counteract the other . Frank: So yeah, you can get yourself in in quite stuck in a circle of. It can be very frustrating, you know? Because let's face it, for most of us, the ideal is just to feel great and not have to take anything else. You know, it's just like, Hey, I woke up, I felt great, and I'm good.You know, that will be nice. I don't have to put anything toxic in my body, you know? I don't have to worry about, you know, drug tests or DUIs or anything, De'Vannon: you know? Hell yeah. We don't need drug test DUIs or the $10,000 that goes with DUIs, [00:43:00] right? , yes. People. If you get a DUI or dwi, I driving under the influence of NT thing, alcohol, weed, whatever.Be expect to pay at least $10,000. Okay. Imagine how much more drugs than alcohol you could have with $10,000 than . Fucking, okay, so the pain is the motherfucking police. Call a fucking Uber or get a friend. Don't get behind the wheel of a goddamn car when you Right, right. We have more to do with 10 grand than to give it to the fucking legal system.Absolutely. Frank: You can buy, you can ride a lot of Ubers for 10 Gs. Man, De'Vannon: look. Uber Luxe. V i p. Okay. . You can beat the Benzs honey. You can beat BenzsSo does your book have information on, you know, besides like what Ketamine is and, and all of the risks involved and things like that, does it tell people like how to talk to their doctors or where they can go to [00:44:00] get the treatment or any kind of thing like, Frank: Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, and I'm sure, you know, you're so familiar with kind of all these ins and outs, you know when, when when you've been introduced particularly to a drug, you've heard of a drug, but you've heard of it like in a illicit context or like a street context, usually people are afraid then to ask their doctor.So if you just say to someone, Hey, you know, , you know, Frank, you know, he is been having these ketamine treatments. He's doing great. You know, there's a lot of, you know, blockage in, in people's minds like, wait, wait a minute, is that, you know, is Afro horses I heard that's just for the club. Or I, you know, isn't that illegal?Or like, where does that all stand? And so you know, in the book, I walked through, you know, people through like, here, you know, what's the legality? You know, what's, you know, what are you asking your doctor? You know how do you know if you may [00:45:00] be someone that you know, this, you know this treatment would be appropriate for?And the nice thing, you know, these days is that, you know, as these clinics has o have opened up, You can call or, you know, sit down for a consultation really easily and, and, you know, you can bring your medical records and talk all the ins and outs. You know, can I, you know, still, you know, tri Ketamine, if I'm on X drug, you know, can I, you know, if I'm bipolar, is it safe for me or will it make me man?So I, I walk you through a number of those questions and really, I just want people to know that this is perfectly legal. There are many clinical studies behind it, and the, the number of those is just exploding. You have nothing to be ashamed of. And you're probably gonna meet a lot of people and along the way, whose lives have been [00:46:00] changed or even.De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. . And then I wanted to point out, Frank's website is called Find ketamine.com. On there you have information about like how to pay for treatment. It's, it's a, it's a very changing landscape in terms of what insurance is gonna cover and what they're not. It's different for different states. So find the ketamine.com is Frank's websites, so you can go there.He has a kick ass blog that covers a lot of the topics we've talked about today that are also in the book. And on your website you can also book like sessions with you to talk and stuff like that. Can you tell me about what people can actually utilize your website for? Sure. Frank: Absolutely. There are, I, I've tried to make the, you know, information as available as possible.So, you know, almost all the information I have out there is free. I, you can buy like some, what I call them as just information packages on my site where I give. , you know, like particular [00:47:00]reports on something or I even have one that includes videos, like of some of my own treatments. , which is very, you know, relaxing and reassuring when you can actually see the process someone's going through.You can see that they didn't go crazy. You know, I didn't jump out of the chair. You know, I didn't start screaming. Everything was, everything was cool. So I have some of those packages available and then of course you can also contact me. I try to just kind of help people however I can. or we can schedule something, you know, more detailed sometimes also, like I will speak to, you know, groups of physicians or at a conference, something like that.De'Vannon: something like that. We want something just like this. , right? Okay. And there you have it folks. So you know where to go. Find ketamine.com. You can get his Frank's book [00:48:00] there. You can reach out to Frank directly, you can read through his blog. I find his website to be very thorough. It's like, it, it is because when, when I, before I went to get my ketamine done, I was searching all over the internet and I didn't know about his website.You know, and it was like a lot of scattered information and I really found that fine ketamine.com pulled it all together. Had I known about you before I went to go see this bitch to get this fucked up treatment, I think that my treatment would've been more rewarding and I could have got ahead of the game because you think.The lowest package on your side is like $9 and 99 cents, and the most expensive one is 49 99. That bitch charged 450, so I would've rather have paid you the 9 99 to get some fucking head smarts about absolutely because people, I want you to be aware that in this just there's probably gonna be some vulture as doctor out there taking advantage of people.I'm not trying to put fear in you, but true that's not labor under the delusion that everybody's intentions are going to be pure. So absolutely I trust Frank because he is giving you shit for free on his website [00:49:00] and more than enough information for you to work with. But also if you want to go deeper, then there, that's there too, because the man's gotta eat and pay his bills, so, so I fucked with Frank, but I don't fuss with that bitch I went to for my ketamine treatment.No, no, no ma'am. I don't fucks with her. I don't talk to her. No ma.Frank: Man, that that sucks. You had that experience, man, like I'm really hoping your next one is the opposite. De'Vannon: Oh, yes, it will be in California. My homeboy Demi Wild, he hosts the hookup Horror Stories podcast, and he lives over in Los Angeles. I haven't even told him this yet, but like at some point when I visit LA again, I'm gonna snatch his little cute ass up and he's gonna go with me to the Ketamine clinic and babysit me.So, yes, there you go. That's Demi. If you're listening, we're gonna do this Ketamine date, honeyFrank: It's good to take someone with you. You know what I mean? [00:50:00] I, I think that's nice, especially if it's like your early on in your ketamine journey. Sometimes it just feels relaxing. Actually, I know a physician who takes his wife with him and she just holds his hand through the treatment and he said it just makes all the difference in the world.So he feels very connected. He feels very like open emotionally, and it's very calming and reassuring. De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. . Calmness and reassurance. Well, I speak, yes, sir. I speak that Blessed Assurance all over everyone in the world whose ears are open and listening to this broadcast. No doubt. Frank's LinkedIn Frank m Ligan is gonna be listed in the show notes, Frank m Ligans with an S.So that's pretty much all that I had. Was there anything that you wanted to say or bring up or Frank: talk about? Well, I mean, one thing I just wanna say is I, I really appreciate, you know, the work you're [00:51:00] doing in terms of, you know, there's so much and, and I don't know, I guess it depends how conservative people are, but I mean, for me, I, I, I'm a big proponent of, you know, kind of breaching those you know, topics that are, you know, off a little to the left or things that people are generally embarrassed about or people, cuz I just find.You know, it's like an illusion, right? Like there are so many of us that fit into these different, you know, categories or have these different challenges, but when nobody's out there really discussing it, you could feel very isolated. Mm-hmm. , you know, and I'm sure, as you know, I mean, so I just wanna say like, when I I didn't, I didn't you know, reach out to you just at random about you having a podcast.I thought to myself, sex, drugs in Jesus. Like, this is a [00:52:00] man that's willing to put it all on the line and really, you know, talk to the people that may not have anyone else to, to talk to. So I, I just respect that man. Appreciate it and it's just been great being here with you. De'Vannon: Well, thank you. I appreciate those kind words immensely.And so y'all, his name is, Lis, his website is find ketamine.com. You could find him on LinkedIn. And this show will be coming out soon. Thank you so much for coming on, Frank. I wish you champagne wishes and ketamine dreams . No Frank: doubt. No doubt. Hey, thanks very much.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or [00:53:00] wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

INTRODUCTION:  Edward Smink, the founder of The Soul of Caregiving Coaching Practice, is an in-demand speaker, coach, and author of The Soul of Caregiving, A Caregiver's Guide to Healing and Transformation. Edward holds an Associate Degree in Nursing from Newton Junior College, a BA in Psychology from Boston College, an MA in Counseling Psychology, a MA and PhD in Depth Psychology from Pacifica Graduate Institute. He is a former Registered Nurse, Healthcare Executive in Mission, Values, Spirituality, Ethics, End of Life Care, and Community Health. He holds titles as a Board-Certified Chaplain with the National Association of Catholic Chaplains and is an Associate Coach with the International Coaching Federation. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Care Advice For The Caregiver·      Compassion Fatigue Defined·      Burnout Defined·      Pandemic Benefits·      Emotional Considerations·      Relationship Imbalance·      Why Comparisons Won't Work·      Three Cultural Taboos That Prevent Self-Care  CONNECT WITH DR. SMINK: Website & Books: https://soulofcaregiving.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/soulofcaregivingTwitter: https://twitter.com/smink_mLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwardmphd/  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:   https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Dr. Edward Smink[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.DeVannon: Dr. Edward Smith, the founder of the Soul of Caregiving Coaching Practice, is an in-demand speaker, coach, and author of the Soul of Caregiving, A Caregiver's Guide to Healing and Transformation. This is a very unique episode, Edward and I. Come at caregiving from a unique perspective with the focus being on giving care advice to the caregiver.Y'all compassionate [00:01:00] fatigue and burnout are real, and I'm happy to have an expert here with me today to tell you everything about it. De'Vannon: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. My name is Devana. I'm your host. Have with me here today Dr. Edward smi, and he is the author of a, I'm gonna say a. Hmm. A very polarizing book called Soul of Caregiving, A Caregiver's Guide to Healing and Transformation. This book here talks about what I consider to be a most taboo topic because it deals with the pains and the grievances that people go through, not because of problems they're going through necessarily, but because the.DeVannon: Problems a loved one is going through, particularly in the area of health. And so that's what we're going to talk to today. You know, how we can beat ourselves up, tell us, tell ourselves we've never done enough, you know, when they die, what more could we have done? So on and so forth. And through caring for [00:02:00] somebody who's not well, we forget to take care of ourselves.And so, so Dr. Smith's website addresses that in depth as to does this book we're gonna talk about today. So, Dr. Smi, how are you?Edward: I am doing very well and I appreciate this opportunity to talk about self-care and, and how to prevent compassion fatigue and burnout.DeVannon: Absolutely. And so tell us you know, a little bit about like your educational history you know, you are a doctor. Tell us like, you know, where you went to school, what kind of doctor Exactly. And so.Edward: Well, I have a doctorate in depth psychology, which focuses on trying to understand a person's Willingness to deal with their life, to deal with their soul. And I use the word soul in the sense of that inner energy that's within each [00:03:00] person. I, I think of the The painting in the Sistine Chapel where you have the divine God, the Father reaching out to Adam, and there's that sense of touching each other, that somehow we allow ourselves to get in touch with that sacred part of who we are.And in that space, we're able to make appropriate choices and decisions. So I used to belong to a community of brothers that work for healthcare. I have a background in nursing. And then I became a chaplain and I, I worked a lot with the different ethical and, and, and, and spiritual issues that both families and, and caregivers and patients experience.And I could, I could talk more about that. And then I after I got. Bachelor's in, in nursing. I [00:04:00]then got a master's in counseling psychology from Pacifica Graduate Institute. And, and I used to work full-time also, so I worked full-time and I also got my master's. And I don't know how I did it, but I did it.And I then started doing coaching and I started working in, in executive leadership in, in healthcare working with mission and values, which has to do with organizational organizational development. And, and then I also worked with ethics. I was on ethics committees. I was on, developed ethics committees and dealt with death and dying, dealt with hospice. Dealt with the issues that most family members face when a loved one becomes critically ill. And then I also worked in community health trying to be a [00:05:00] presence in the community our healthcare system to give back to the community in helping them with, with different health issues. So I got a, a master.In, in counseling psychology. Then I got a PhD, another master's in a PhD, in depth psychology, and that's where the doctor comes from. My Doctoral thesis was the thresholds of affliction, the heroic journey of healing. What happens to a person when they're ill and what resources do they use to help them get in touch with that curative part of their that's happening or to help them deal with the, the dying process.That's sort of my background and I sound younger than I am, and I, I like that. Most people think I am about 10 or 15 years younger than I am, and I like that too. And I [00:06:00] often say, if you could only see me now. But anyway, I have a passion to reach out to caregivers and then I explain who are the caregivers?And I say, we all are because at the heart of being human is to. Parents care for their children. Spouses care for each other. Educators care for their pupils. First responders and police officers care for the people they work with. We're all, we're all caregivers. It's not just in the medical field of doctors and nurses and, and, and therapists.So, because we all care, the, the danger is that we don't care for our. We're, we're, we're, I think there's a phrase that's easier to give than receive, and, and so we're, we're used to always wanting to give, but we don't use those same skills to take care of [00:07:00] ourself. In the, in the Hebrew scripture and then also in the Christians scriptures, it says, you know, love the Lord your God with all your mind, all your heart, and all your being.And then it says, love your neighbor as you love. Now here's the question. Have we grown up with a healthy respect of loving ourself? We usually think we're not good enough or what because of culture or our different political aspirations. We don't feel that the gift that we are in, in, in most spiritual traditions as as, as a child of the divine, we don't, we don't.Let that sink in and realize how, how special we are. So you're special and I'm special. The everyone who's listening is special. And when we allow ourselves to experience that specialness, we're able to make appropriate decisions to care for ourself.DeVannon: Right. [00:08:00] So thank you for uh, the, that, that, that, that thorough breakdown of You know, well, I guess you, I guess your answered the other question I was gonna ask you about, like, why you wrote the book, you know, and that I think you, I think you covered that already, so thank you for that. But you mentioned that, that, that you do coaching.So I'm curious, like what, what sort of coaching do you do and what is it that you help people gain?Edward: Well, I work mainly with caregivers. And who are they? So the, we're all caregivers, but what I really try to focus on a person who's experiencing compassion fatigue, and I'll explain that in, in, in also burnout. I'll explain that. You hear that a lot. I try to have them focus on their strengths, not on the problem that they're dealing with.So what are the strengths that you. and when we, we focus on our own interior strengths, then we're able to [00:09:00] separate the issue that's, that we're dealing with. We're able to pull it apart. We're able to make appropriate choices cuz we have a foundation. But what happens with compassion fatigue is that we we're so exhausted, we lose our bearing.You know, we're, we're on. And we need to get back to the center of things. So compassion fatigue happens because we love what we're doing and we get exhausted.DeVannon: So,Edward: love what we're doing.DeVannon: so, so it's a mixture of love and exhaustion. Before, before we get too much into the definition of compassion fatigue, I wanted, I want to hang on to the Into the coaching. So y'all, his, his, his website is soul of caregiving.com. You can book counseling, coaching sessions, co counseling sessions there and get more information there.He's a very interesting blog on the website and of course, you know the book soul of Caregiving, the Caregiver Guide to Healing and Transformation can [00:10:00] also all be bought through that website. So, , do you, can you gimme an example of like a client that you were working with, like what their issue was and how you helped them to overcome that issue, and then what, how they were after you helped them to overcome.Edward: well, I can think of one in particular who was an executive leader in in nursing, and she always. Always got in trouble because she was, she wasn't taking care of herself. And, and she came to me and, and she said, I, I think I'm, I'm going through burnout. And I, so we started talking about it, and over a course of six months, and sometimes it takes longer, she was able to focus on how she.Get out of the trap that she knitted herself into. [00:11:00] She didn't realize that she was like a, a, a hamster in a wheel that was constantly going, going spinning and spinning and spinning cuz she was always so directed to take care of others. And she learned that from her mother who was a nurse. And so she, she always thought she had to push and push and push and push and push and never took time for herself.So that realization took time for her to own it and not to feel selfish or not to feel guilty. Well, I'm guilty because I'm, I'm, I am taking a three day weekend, or I'm guilty because my husband and I are going for a trip and we're leaving the children with our grand, with our parents. It, it's like it It is, it is.And I had another client. Who felt she was selfish, you know? And I said, look at, and I told this other client, I said, look [00:12:00] at what you've done, what you've done for others. How can you say you're selfish? This other client was taking care of her father with Alzheimer for two years until he died. And I said, look at all you've done.How can you say you're selfish? And she realized, She wasn't selfish to take care of herself, but it took a long time for her to say it's okay. So coaching takes time. It's not, it's not like, you know, you're knocked off your horse and, and, and you get insight. You get insight and then you have to apply it.Yeah. It, it, you have, it's like a muscle. You have to massage it.DeVannon: Right? And so when it, when it comes to the to the caregivers and the caretakers, Well, there was a sta a statistic that, that I read that it says like, in 20 20, 20 3% of American caregivers said caregiving had made [00:13:00] their own health worse. And that's according to the A A R P. You know, and I was reading it, you know, you know, and it also elsewhere said you know, that care caregiving is like the growing crisis that everyone must face.I think we saw this a lot. You know, when Covid hit and then the nurses and everything, you know, they started quitting and, you know, there was a lot of burnout and like, and fatigue and stuff like that. So did you see an an influx of, of, I guess, customers or patients during covid or how, how, from your view, has Covid impacted the subject at hand?Edward: Well, COVID affected us. In many ways, and I think the main reason was it the normal that we knew became nonexistent. So most of us were going through a sense of [00:14:00] grieving. We were going through a sense of loss. We were going through anxiety because we wanted to get out and do things. We wanted to get back to normal.I remember two years ago I was gonna have a, a birthday party for my brother and myself we're twins, and that's when Covid started. And I remember it saying to my, my cousin, well, this'll be over in a week or two and we can get on with it. Well, two years later, you know, we're, we're, we're emerging out of our tunnels.But I think what most people. Faced was themself. They, they had to deal with issues that all of a sudden popped up that they couldn't run away from, and, and so that some were able to cope with that and some weren't. I think it also helped people become more reflect. [00:15:00] You know, after you can't, I mean, how many movies can you watch it?You know, and all of a sudden you're realizing that you have time to read, you have time to focus, you have time to write, you have time to journal, you have time to read that book. You've always wanted to, you have time to spend with your family in ways that you didn't. And so it, it, it forced most of us to deal.Personal issues that often were hidden. And so there's a recovery they call it now, post covid, you know relief. How, how to, how to help clients or how to help each other realize we can put our feet back in the water, but the water is different than it was two years ago. . See, that's, that's, that's what's d.and so we're creating a new normal. That's different because we're [00:16:00] different.DeVannon: Right. And so, yeah, I mean, I, I concur. People did have to face themselves. I think that that is like the greatest benefit of Covid. I dunno if it sounds, You know, oxymoron to associate benefits with Covid, but I do cuz I felt like personally a lot of good came out of it. And one of the greatest things was, like you said, causing people to face themselves because people could not go and bury their reality and activities or bury their pain and activities.You know, they had to actually deal with life on life terms and deal with life as it is, rather than to be, to cater to distrac.Edward: Exactly. Exactly. And it, it, it challenged all of us. And, and some people did. And others in coping and others, you know, got really depressed.DeVannon: Yeah. Or acted out in their own ways. , so.Edward: Yes, we do.DeVannon: All right, so, so then let, let me bring this back around [00:17:00] then to the compassion fatigue and burnout. Go ahead and explain to us, you know, what those two are.Edward: Well, compassion fatigue has to do with doing something. We love. We really love being a parent. We really love being a spouse. We really love teaching, or we love nursing, or we love being a, a, a first responder or please. We love, we love, we love what we do, but we get exhausted. And because we get exhausted, it's called compassion.because we're so compassion, we get fatigued. And the antidote to that is called compassion resilience, that we're able to step away from a situation and, and, and not Not de personalize ourself from it, but [00:18:00] to build a safety net and boundaries that we could weave in and out without getting totally absorbed in, into, into the situation.So that's, that's what compassion fatigue is. Burnout has to do with being in a situation. It could be, as you said, the danger of being a caregiver at home and feels feeling. and no one's helping me. And I could talk about that in a little bit. And so you, you, you lose hope. You don't get the emotional let's say a wife is taking care of her husband who has Alzheimer's.She doesn't get the same satisfaction of the relationship that she had before. So she's going through a sense of grieving and, and she also is, is. Feels that she's stuck. And so or I could [00:19:00] be in a, a work situation in, in a hospital clinic, a, a school, and, and the people in charge do not give me the normal human satisfaction of being there as a person.I'm, I'm just a clog and a wheel, and so I never feel I get the support. I never feel that there's people helping me and, and acknowledging my humanness appreciation. You've done a good job. We're really proud of you. All those things that help a person realize that that what they're doing is, is who they are and they're affirmed in that situation.When you're not affirm. You, you feel like you're, you're hitting your head against the wall because no matter what you do doesn't change the situation that the people on top don't recognize you [00:20:00]in your human gifts and capacities. So that's the difference between burnout and compassion fatigue.DeVannon: Right. And so thank you for, you for explaining that. Another great thing I thought that came from Covid was this gut check that had to come into employers because employers. you know, not always so great. Their employees underappreciate them, overwork them, underpay them, and act like that. That employee always has to come there.When people were sitting at home reflecting, they realized that, you know, life is short. They got their value system organized. A lot of people who never liked those jobs anyway, and were burned out on those jobs, then go back to those jobs and you know, and now we have like this surplus of jobs and everything.And I think it's the most beautiful thing because employee employers have had to humble themselves downEdward: Yes. Yes.DeVannon: and not think the world revolves around them because they're the one cutting the checks. , [00:21:00] you know, you actually need employees to make a business run, and so,Edward: Well, I like what you said that that many people got in touch with their values and realized that they, they could leave a situation, they didn't have to stay stuck. , you see? And, and they could, they could work with a corporation on a different way. And corporations were realizing that the best, the most important entity that they have are their employees.And, and so how do you make sure that their needs are being taken care. It, it, it's, it takes, it takes less money to care for your employees than to keep hiring new people cuz people quit.DeVannon: right. It does. Absolutely. And hopefully these employers have learned that of the reason why I work for myself now is because I've had a [00:22:00] litany of terrible bosses and supervisors and companies that I've worked for and I was just like, you know the hell with all that. So Well, something in you. Something in you said, see, it forced you to be creative. , it forced you to get in touch with what your real values and what you wanted to do. And so that's, that's the blessing. And saying, I can't go back to that. I don't, you know, but some people do and, and they, they're miserable.Edward: I call 'em mis aholic, so I'm glad you brought that up,DeVannon: Absolutely. Now I'm gonna take a curve ball here with compassion fatigue and burnout, because as you were describing it, I'm hearing echoes of relatability here when it comes to romantic relationships. You know, we've talked about like parents, you know, employers are health setting. , [00:23:00] do you believe there's any implications with compassion fatigue and burnout when we have like a romantic partner and maybe we've overextended that relationship and we just don't wanna leave?Edward: Well, I think the same issue comes up about being true to yourself and sometimes, and I'm sure during the covid, people realized who are married, that they don't love each other. And so they made appropriate decisions. I think that romantically, I often say the gift of a relationship is that the spouse gives permission for the other to be who they are and vice versa.So your, your, your spouse wants you to be who you really could. And you want your spouse to be who they [00:24:00] really could be. And so when you start with that framework, you're on a deeper level than competition.DeVannon: Hmm.Edward: And you know you probably know and heard enough that the way women think is different than the way men.and they're both, both, right, , it's not like one's right, or or the other. But men tend to look at something from one perspective and women from the other, and they could share those perspectives. And again, it's not right or wrong, it's just the fact that, oh, I didn't see it that way. So again, how does it, how does it come back to normal communication?DeVannon: So when you, when you said you know, no competition, I, I had that reaction because, you know, I'm, I'm dealing with a relationship right now where, There's this whole from the other person, like this whole competition wanting to compare, [00:25:00] you know? So that's why I had that reaction because like you hit the nail on the head,Edward: Well, you might, you might again You might decide to have a come to Jesus meeting and, and say, I, I, you know, it it, let's say for example, this person does something where you feel competition. That's when you should say can, can we talk about, I just feel you're competing with me and I, I, I don't want to compete with you.I wanna love. And if she's open to that or he's open to that, then you have a beginning of a new relationship. If they're not, then you're realizing that you're in the wrong relationship.DeVannon: Right, because that, that, that comparison and that competition doesn't work. [00:26:00] I was talking with you know, well, well, you know, we've seen this on the news actually often enough. You know, you'll have like one person in the relationship, be it straight, gay by whatever and so so, you know, we, we see on the news sometimes where jealous partner, jealous spouse, shows up at the job and like, kills someone, you know, kills their significant other because they were jealous or envious or whatever the case may be.You know, That whole like, like the comparing thing and the competitiveness, you know, you mentioned it, but I really wanna point out to people just how dangerous that can get, you know, to, to, to stay in a relationship with somebody who doesn't feel like they have equal footing. And that relationship, that thing is like a sort of cancer that's only gonna get worse with time until that person snaps and does something.You can't stay in a relationship with somebody if you're constantly feeling like you're less.Edward: Agree, and, and [00:27:00] all of us, no matter who we are. I mean, I grew up in an alcoholic family and I real, it took me a long time to overcome feeling I wasn't good enough. You know, you from your background, especially from the racial background, you know, you're, the way the white culture treats you. You go, well, am I good?and, and all of a sudden you realize, damn, I am good enough, , you know, and, and I'm good enough. So that's a real transformation. It's a real gift to stand before the sacred and say, thank you for giving me the gifts I have and, and I will use my life to the best of my ability to live out those gift. I mean, how many, how many people?How many people complimented you today?[00:28:00]DeVannon: Well, I rarely leave my house, so, but when I'm when I'm out and about, you know, not really. I'm the one who finds, I like to compliment people because I understand what that's doing for them, but most people don't give them out.Edward: Yeah. But I'm sure you have, you have good friends that support you.DeVannon: Yeah, I mean, when I go around my friends, you know, if I change my beard color or I have on, if I've lost weight, you know, absolutely. They'll do that. They will.Edward: I have a friend who, who dyes his beard alsoDeVannon: It's the thing to do, man. I can't grow hair on my head, so I gotta work with what I have, with what I got. So now let me thank you for going down that, that off the beat path with me with the whole relationships and everything because, you know, self-care is so, so important here. And when I think about this, I think about like how when my [00:29:00] grandfather had a stroke and then I think he was in the hospital paralyzed for like six months.you know, the family had, you know, was keeping going up there to the hospital. I think about various people who have died and, and they were like bedridden in the hospital and I can, I remember how tired, like you can tell it in the faces and the energy of the person who was going up there, attend to them and everything.Then when they died, it's like their care. It's like they got 20 years added back to their lives. 20, 30 years came back. It's like their youth was renewed. And so can you talk to us about how it can be bad for our health to pour that much of our cells into somebody?Edward: Well, it can be both a blessing and and a challenge. The blessing is, I've often said to doctors and nurses and other healthcare professionals, , are [00:30:00] you a better person because of the work that you do? And they all shake their head, yes, I, I'm a better person because that other person has taught me something that I didn't know about myself.So, for example, it is very tiring to be a caregiver and I may not be good with patience. . Well, the caregiver or your grandfather taught your family how to be patient. I mean, it just happened because that's what happens. The, the, the person who is, who is the one being cared for becomes the caregiver to the caregiver. So when you reflect on those experiences, you pause and. on, on the different experiences. That's what feeds you. When you don't, that that's when [00:31:00] you get tied up in nuts and, and you know, you probably heard, gee, I wish that person was dead. And then you hit yourself on the head and go, well, you know, how do, why am I saying that?Well, I'm saying that cuz I'm frustrated, , you know, I'm, I'm tired and.In our culture today, we don't acknowledge dying. I wrote a paper about that called doctors and nurses don't like to say the D word Dying. So the doctor will say, well, you're, you're great. Grandfather isn't really doing well. What do you want me to. and then the family feels they have to make a decision whether or not the person lives or dies. 25 [00:32:00] years ago, the physician would say, your grandfather isn't doing well. We're gonna do everything to keep him comfortable, and, and his time is short, but we're gonna keep 'em comfortable. See the difference. The physician. The physician hold. Holds the crisis. If, if you have children or, or ne nieces and nephews, if there's something wrong with them, they run up to you.What do you do? You reach out to your arms and you hold them. So caregivers need to hold the crisis. And what happens today is the p. will say, what do you want me to do? And, and the, the family gets all excited. Like they're pulling the plug. Well, they're not pulling the plug. The disease is pulling the plug.You know what, what's, what's really [00:33:00] happening? And we have all these technology to prevent the dying process to keep a person alive when there's no. No outcome that is going to be beneficial. And so that's exhausting too. It's exhausting because family members feel they're responsible, but they're not responsible.The doctor is, and the disease process helps. You know, no one wants someone that they love to die. I call that an. On the other hand, the person's medical condition is causing the person to die. I call that an orange, and they're both the same. And so unless we address the fact that we're, we're ha we, we really feel we don't want the person to die and [00:34:00] address the fact, the fact that they are.What happens is it gets all messed up. I call it a fruit salad , instead of, instead of dealing with one issue at, at a time. And yes, I, I, I, I want my loved one to live, but I recognize that they're dying and so let's do what's, what we can to keep them comfort.DeVannon: what do you recommend, and I know each person is different in each situation where somebody's caregiving is different, whether it's a romantic relationship or someone dying in a hospice or a kid, or is there any general advice you can give to, you know, You know how, how, how does, how do people stop and understand, hey, you know, n I need to stop and do something for myself.I'm giving too much. Do you find that people are like resistant to seeking help for [00:35:00] self-care in the first placeEdward: Well, they are, our culture says that I, I in my research I found out that there are are three cultural taboos that prevent self-care. The first is to acknowledge there's something in me that I need help with. We're raised to think we have to solve everything. and that it's a sign of weakness to ask for help.But healing is social healing has to do with relationships. And so the first cultural taboo is don't acknowledge there's something in you. There's an issue that needs to be further explored and you can't do it by yourself. The second cultural taboo is just as we don't trust what's happening or trust another, we don't communicate our story.So let's talk about, you know, all [00:36:00] the floods that have happened here in, in California. All the devastation in some parts of the country. I, I mean, it's some parts of the state and you have first responders. , you know, do their best. And, and, and someone may be swept away like a five year old was, you know, a couple weeks ago.Well, that affects the person. And so can they tell their peers, you know, you know, I have a story to tell and boy, that, that losing that little kid really affected me. See, talking about our story is considered also a sign of weakness. And, and sh and to be shamed, you know, we're supposed to handle everything.We're not supposed to share, share our story. But the, the real issue of healing is when we share our story and were heard, you know, that the other person really hears us. [00:37:00] It frees us to make choices. So we wanna trust someone that will hear our story. We don't advi, we don't want advice. You know, we want someone to hear us.And so that's the second taboo is don't communicate your story. And the third cultural taboo is, Don't feel what, what you're feeling. Don't acknowledge what you're feeling. I feel sad. I feel pain. I feel hurt. I feel anger over that situation. We're supposed to have a stiff upper lip pull up your bootstraps.You know, big boys don't cry. And big girls you know, get too emotional and they're both wrong because being human is to. . And so I have a feeling over that particular situation I, and you know, it could be sad, it could be anger, it could be grief it, you know, but I'm [00:38:00] acknowledging that that really affected me.I was working with a client once and she was a first responder and she was, she and her team went out to a, a single plane airplane. And when she got there, they couldn't save the pilot cuz the, the plane just blew up. And so she was distraught over that and, and she started not sleeping well. And she started drinking and finally her supervisor said what's going on?And I think you need a coach to help you sort this through. So I was hired to do that. . And so as we're working through this situation, she's realized that it, it wasn't her fault and, and she couldn't do anything and that was okay in this situation. And she [00:39:00] then started getting in touch with going to a group that was called debriefing.And she liked it so much because she realized that in that, people could talk openly about their experience and that she wasn't by herself anymore. And her other teammates, this was voluntary. Her other teammates would, would tease her and say, oh, you're going to the Cry Babies Club. So again, that's the culture.You know, don't, don't debrief, don't talk about what you're feeling. Don't ask for help, don't communicate your story. So all those things pile up. And, and so we're raised we're raised not to, to be rugged individualist. Now that's, that's more the, the English. [00:40:00] Focus, but the African American and the Mediterranean culture is to go to your family.It's more communal versus, versus the white culture that tends to be more independent, so the independent person has to reach out for help. The person who, who's in a, a communal culture has to realize it's okay to pull yourself out to ask for.DeVannon: You know, that's why I always challenge people. I'll ask people, you know, like, why do you believe what you believe? Especially when they raise a particularly poignant point, they feel so intensely passionate about whether I agree with it or not. You know, it's not the point of me asking it, but I really want to understand that whoever it is that I'm challenging and probing into like that has done their homework and done their own research within themselves to sort out their convictions because as you well know,[00:41:00]You know, Edward, a lot of people believe a whole lot of things, but when you ask them, they can't really say where they got that knowledge from. And I hear that, you know, like say with these, with this nursing situation, I wanna say it's very immature for her coworkers to call her her group, the crybaby group. You know, it's, it's just so sad that no matter how old people get, some people still act like you know fucking children, but, but, you know, but, but for them to To, to even say that means that they think what you're like, just like what you're saying is that it's not okay to emote to express this.Like I would ask them, okay, you believe that this is a cry baby baby group and that this is an irrational use of emotion. But why though? Where did you get that belief system from? Well, you know, what you've already said is that it's a cultural thing. My point in saying all this is people, people, you can think for yourself, your culture, your [00:42:00] race, racial background, your sexual orientation, whatever group you identify with.Sure you got things in common with them, but they don't get to think for you , you know, and tell you everything like the culture told me to do. It is not an acceptable answer to me.Edward: Well, I agree with that and, and to stand apart is very difficult because we're. We're bashful, and yet at the same time, we have gifts. And when we allow ourselves to get in touch with those gifts, it gives us strength to be who are to be ourselves. And we're not. We're not it overcomes the bashfulness or the shyness.DeVannon: Hmm. All I know. Is that, you know, you know this, this world, you know, we're gonna have [00:43:00] a lot of problems ahead of us and we've got to get balanced. You know, you know, the world is not set to get any better, you know, we're, you know, in terms of like our character, it seems like the richer we get, like the worst we get as like people.You know, and like what I mean, like that is like when I'm say like in Mexico or in like a, a far less rich country than the United States, I feel like people have greater character, like an appreciation for one another. Then when I come here back to the United States, I'm all like, ah, fuck. You know? Then I gotta deal with Karen and Ken when I go out, you know, and everything like that.And it's just, , you know, and I'm saying all this to say, we had to learn how to take better care of ourselves. And then I don't mean going out to buy more things for ourselves or to go have sex with more people or to go like you know, to fulfill whatever advice you like I'm talking about. Like get you know yourself, you know who [00:44:00] you are, how to truly strengthen yourself in times of tribulation because trouble is coming to this world and.We're gonna love people who are gonna need our help, but how do we, when is it too far? When do we ask for help? How do we ask for help? Thinking that you can do it all on your own is a, is a trap, it's a weakness in and of itself. It's overreliance on self. know, I don't judge anybody for their religious or spiritual perspectives.You know, Edward, you know, I'm, you know, a big follower of the Trinity. I don't follow churches. I love being like, dependent on God. I don't like, like many of my friends, you know, like, they're like universe people, you know, like, like they thank the universe. They, they ask the universe for this or, or they'll be like, all the answers are within me.I feel like some of the answers are within me, but I love. Being able to reach outside of myself to a being higher than me, because for me, that takes the pressure off of me. You know, I'm over myself. I don't feel like I need to be able to [00:45:00] do it all and know it all. I really, really, really, really think that, like you said, that there's a lot of weakness built into an overreliance on ourself.Edward: Well, I think it's important. Who are the friends that you could communicate on, on the soulful level, and they're the ones that support you? There is, there was a program about a year ago on N B C Lester Halt interviewed a, a captain of a police department and he was suffering from P T S D and he brought his team together and he said, you know, I'm suffering from PS P T S D and I don't wanna hide it anymore.And I want us to meet every week, you know, at our meeting. and it, it's an opportunity that we can share our experiences and support each other instead of isolating each other. And so he started that program. It was a real [00:46:00] paradigm shift. And so the question I ask you, or everyone you know, yes, everything is could be considered crazy, and yet there's a lot of good.and how do you support yourself to focus on the goodness that helps you deal with the tribulations. And so when you have the, your, your network of friends, you may decide where you're gonna meet, you know, once a week and you're gonna have coffee or donuts or, or beer or wine or something. And you're gonna discuss how to support each.DeVannon: Mm-hmm. , you know what, that's a start. But people have to be willing to be transparent to do that. One of the things that irks me the most, When I think about my past is when I got H I V and that and that terrible, terrible doctor that I had at the time left my positive h i v diagnosis on a voicemail on New Year's Eve.[00:47:00]You know, just over 10 years ago I was living in the heart of Montrose in Houston, Texas, which is gay district in Houston, which at the time was like the fourth largest city in the country. There's a lot of people there.Edward: I lived there for eight years.DeVannon: Okay, so you know exactly what I'm talking about. The thing was, I was, so me and my friends were so we hung around each other, but we never had deep conversations.We were too busy partying and trying to look cute, and we were cute, but we didn't really know what the next person next to us was struggling with. So, , the, the, the how asin I and crazy it is for me to think that I was the only person with H I V. You know, I felt like such a, a pariah and a leper when really there was many, many lgbtqia a plus people with H I V that I should have been able to feel like I could go to.But because we weren't having those conversations, I felt completely.Edward: Of course, of course. Did you ever think of [00:48:00] starting. Look at what you're doing now.DeVannon: Yeah. Yeah, I did. I started as called the sex Drugs in Jesus podcast and sex drugs in Jesus, the memoir that is my contribution of transparency to the world, and that's why I did it. Cause I was like, A lot of my problems might've been avoided. I might've known that I wasn't alone , you know, and so, so I tell everything about myself.I don't give a damn. I let the whole world know because I mean, if it's just as simple as feeling, you know, if it's just as simple as you feeling like you're not alone from hearing me berate myself with my foolish mistakes, then so be it. Then, honey, I'll help you save your life, . And so,Edward: I feel honored that you feel so trusting in me to be able to share what you're sharing.DeVannon: Sharing is caring as they say. I don't, I don't care too much for cliches most of the time, but I'll use it right now. So, so, so, so, so it sounds like you get hired by a lot of, like businesses [00:49:00] medical places and things like that, like for your counseling and coaching services. But as you said, caregivers are, or everyone, so can someone reach out to you if they have.you know, a kid or a friend or a loved one who they feel like they may be overextending themselves even though they're not a nurse or a medical professional.Edward: Yes,DeVannon: Mm-hmm.Edward: I have on my website how to get in touch with me and, and I do a 30 minute free conversation.DeVannon: that's pretty generous. You know, 30 whole minutes . That's a lot. That's a lot of time in the coaching world. And so Well, if I, if I had 500 people, I might, I might do it 10 minutes, but I don't have 500 people.Well, I'm sure the people you do have love you and appreciate the work you're doing in their lives. So as we get ready to close, this is pretty much what I wanted to go over today. Thank you for being such a great guest. Were there any last words you [00:50:00] had for the world?Edward: Just that if you feel the symptoms of compassion fatigue or burnout or your feel, you're at your wits ends because you're a caregiver. Know that you can overcome it. I went through burnout 30 years ago, and I was, I was, I'll use the word saved because of, of a compassionate Jesuit priest who listen to my story and help me regain my inner strength to be who I am.and I attribute him in saving my life. So if I could be an instrument to help someone save their life, to see who they are and give their gifts to the world, that's what I'm, I'm committed to do instead of being a couch potato.[00:51:00]DeVannon: Okay. Well, I'm glad that you are here and not hanging out with Mr. Potatohead. I look forward to hearing about your continued contributions to the world. Thank you so much for joining me today, Dr. Edward Smith.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

INTRODUCTION: I hold a Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Exposition, with an interdisciplinary in Literature, from Moody Bible Institute. I was one of two recipients of the MBI Homiletical Jury Award for outstanding preaching in 2016. I have experience as a youth pastor, pastoral intern, academic journal editor, and guest speaker. I used to be a part of the largest cult in the United States. In 2019, I published my first book, The Cult of Christianity, as a first step in addressing the subtle issues of this complex system. In 2021, I continued my work with this podcast!   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      How Christianity Is A Cult·      A Look Into TCOC Book's Cover Art·      How The Church Exploits Vulnerabilities ·      Civil Rights Movement Implications·      Explained: Control – Contain – Convert·      Refusing Cake To The Gays! – But Why Though?·      The “Karen-ness” Of Christians ·      Fake Oppression·      Getting Over Self-Condemnation For Falling For The Church·      The Honor In Self-Deprecation  CONNECT WITH JOHN: Website, Social Media & Books: https://linktr.ee/thecultofchristianity  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: John Verner [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: John m is back with us again to go harder into his very provocative book, the Cult of Christianity. Join us today as we discuss the ways in which the church mind fucks us, violates us, and exploits people's vulnerabilities. Also, I hope that through this episode you begin to find a sense of healing in knowing that if you or your loved one has been devastated by the.[00:01:00]You are not alone, honey. We are in this together. John and I are with you,and we will walk with you every step of the way.Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your hostess with the mostest, Devon Huber. And I have with me the lovely, the handsome, the talented, the smart, intelligent, brave, bold, and in touch with his emotions. John er, he is the John: host, John De'Vannon: er mm-hmm. , John er. He is the host of The Cult of Christianity podcast.And the author of the book titled the same. He was on my show before to talk about, well, the book, but then we got so deep into his history in the podcast. We didn't get a chance to talk about the [00:02:00] book, so I had to have the motherfucker back on so we can dive into this shit. How the fuck is you? John: I is fine.20, 20, 23 feels like a little bit of a reset. And so I'm, I'm kind of living in that head space of like, all right, what's next? Since we last spoke, I went, I can't, I don't think I had started back working on my master's in journalism. And so that's been taking up a lot of time. I'm, I'm, it's all online, but I'm studying at N Y U mm-hmm.And that's been awesome. I've been, been doing some religious reporting stuff, which is, is fun. I'm excited to kinda move towards that, doing religious reporting. It's pretty fun. De'Vannon: Well, congratulations. Congratulations. And all of it was a good thing. . So you're religious reporting like say for, for like, for like the university's press John: or like where Yeah.For right [00:03:00] now. Yeah. And then yeah, I'm already, I'm hopefully gonna sell my first, I'm actually right after we record this, I'm gonna have a meeting to hopefully sell my first story of a church investigation I did. Cuz that's what I wanna do. I want to, not just Christian churches, but I want to go into churches and colts and investigate them and figure out what's really going on De'Vannon: as someone should.Have you heard of the Trinity Foundation in Texas? John: Yeah. You mentioned that last time we talked. I didn't, I didn't look too far into them, but I know there's, there's several. This is a relatively new thing that's popping up that's actually really, really important work. De'Vannon: So what you're telling me is there's organizations who investigate churches more than that one.This is becoming like a trend. Well, John: religious reporting has been around for, for decades, but it's been done in a very kind of general way. And I think there's being a small push to be like, let's actually look at individual, like if someone is whistle blowing on their [00:04:00] church or is like giving us leads about a specific church, that it should be fair game and we should investigate them like we would any other business.De'Vannon: Right. Well, I wish you success with that as you get going and keep going, be sure to let me know if there's anything that I can do for you because, you know, I don't give a fuck about churches, but I give all the fucks. I give all the fucks about Christ as I always say. Mm-hmm. , but the church. Yay Jesus. And that's the way that, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.Now, before we get too much into this, I want you to tell me about that coffee mug in your hand. Can you hold it up the camera so that we can see Yeah. What it says. Apostate coffee roasters. You mind giving us a little bit of history on what the fuck apostate means and where you got that from? Yeah.John: Apostates just a derogatory term that different cults and religions have thrown at people who, typically it's someone who, like me, who used to be a part of the faith and is no longer [00:05:00] but it's, it's more broadly a pro. A similar word would be something like heretic. But the, yeah, so prostate coffee roasters, they're this coffee company that is run by ex Mormons and Mormons are not allowed to drink coffee.So it's a very like, empowering thing for them to roast their own coffee and make it so they're awesome. Love 'em to death. They're great. Make good coffee. So their De'Vannon: whole show is one big clap back. Not the whole show. Their whole fucking concept is one big clap back. Mm-hmm. . So do you have any idea why Mormons think coffee is Satan?Why do they think coffee is of the devil? John: Yeah. I don't know personally too much. You know, I didn't grow up Mormon or anything. I do know that just in my studies of Colts , what they do is one move to do is to control what people eat and drink. You know, in Southern Baptist culture that looks like alcohol [00:06:00] you know, in, in certain pockets of Christianity, historically there was only certain kinds of bread you could use for communion.Anytime you're trying to regulate what people are eat, eating, you're regulating what they're putting into their body. That's just a, that's just a very like kind of you've mentioned stuff like hypnosis. It's, it's a very like, Kind of mind numbing way to control a person is to control what they eat and drink.The other big one I talk about a lot is controlling what you wear. That's like a, that's a big thing that pops up in different cults. You'll see usually a distinction between how clergy dress and the followers and how people dress on Sunday versus the rest of the days is common in Christian circles.So basically if you can control what someone expresses and you can control what someone intakes, it's very easy to control their mind cuz you're already controlling their body. . [00:07:00] Mm. So that would be my, my, my spin on it. I don't know the theo, I don't know what theological reason they made up for coffee.Like I, I'm sure there's some, I'm sure somebody said it was you know, too addicting at some point is probably the modern version, I would assume. De'Vannon: Well, if that was the case, at least those bastards were even across the board, you know, unlike say the Pentecostals who were like, that was show not drinketh of the vine, but they're gross in a fucking gallon of coffee in the back every Sunday and like that.But that's all good, right? . John: Yeah. Well that's also, yeah, especially, especially if they go the grape juice route too, because even grape juice is from a vine. So that's kind of. , De'Vannon: it's all silly. The marijuana, the L s D mm-hmm , the shrooms, the coffee beans, the grapes, and any of their derivatives is something that is of the Lord.And it is not for humans to tell us what the fuck. We can't do really with [00:08:00] anything, but it's certainly not anything that grew up out the fucking dirt. Hmm. So, speaking of artistic expressions, cuz you're also fucking artistic. I mentioned the, the cover for your podcast the last time, but I wanted to talk about that again because I feel like it's just so enigmatic and so polarized and you have this big, huge fucker standing on like a pedestal and his little minions bowing before them for him sucking his dick or whatever the case may be, paying HOK in some way.And the interesting thing is you can't tell whether or not that's supposed to be a preacher, a rabbi, a pope, a pastor that's supposed to be God, you know, or Jesus or some like sort of deity. , and I know you said it before, but I'd like you to just tell us again why you went with this cover art, because I think it's so true.John: Well, this is a, every so humans like categories we like [00:09:00] to find a group. We like to label things as good and bad. And there's not necessarily anything wrong with that. That's just kind of how our brains work. And the problem is we've got kind of this weird concept of good guys and bad guys, and the church is pretending to be the good guys while they're being the bad guys.But you end up having to label specific things that are wrong because there's so many goodhearted people in. . And so a lot of times when I critique Christianity, people wanna spend the conversation of, well, you're not critiquing Christianity. You're critiquing this version of Christianity, which isn't necessarily wrong, I am way more focused on White American evangelicalism than the rest of it.But White American evangelicalism was not a term when there were slavery in the us. There it existed, but we hadn't [00:10:00] labeled it that yet. The Crusades, the was not only white people, was not American people and was certainly not evangelicals, but the Crusades were bad . And it stemmed from their beliefs their Christian beliefs.So I can't say everything all at once. , but what I hope the art communicates is the, the problem that I've spotted, the category that I think everything else falls from is the idea of leaders and followers of other people submitting to someone else. I don't really, I, I think it's worth bringing up white supremacy.I think it's worth bringing up patriarchy. I think all those things are very much worth talking about, but I don't think it's the only thing going on. I think we have a we're, we're sometimes scared, and I think we've been made to be scared of pointing out that what's really going on in churches is that cult structure of one man with [00:11:00] other people having the knee bow to him either literally or metaphorically.So again, the art is, is purposely vague because I think unless there's some fundamental changes 40 years from now when evangelicalism won't exist, it will be gone. We won't be calling anyone an evangelical anymore. The same problems, the same structure, the same issues will still be present unless there's foundational changes.Chow, I'm De'Vannon: getting Game of Thrones flashbacks. Okay. Like, how many season is it gonna take to get you to bend the knee? John Snow, get on down there. Boy. and motherfucking service. Yo, queen God damnit. And so . John: Yeah. Well seasons is an interesting way of thinking about it. Both television and, and you know, weather or whatever.But it's true. Like there's seasons of Christianity that that kind of come and go. But what seems to remain is that structure of one person being in charge of others or [00:12:00] multiple people being in charge of multiple others. But there's always that hierarchy. So again, I, I have tried to update the art before, but I think it, I think it's just the, it, it's, it's about what I'm talking about most specifically.You know, that my art. on that is in line with the problem I'm trying to point to. There's many other people who are doing great work to dismantle white Evangelicalism and I support all those people. But to me, that's not my niche. That's not what I'm trying to talk about. Hmm. Then De'Vannon: tell us like it, you know, and make it official here.What, what are you trying to talk about? What is your mission in this world? Hmm. John: I'm not just against Christianity, I'm against cults. I just know how much of a cult Christianity is. Hmm. And the reason I'm against cults is it's an erase. It erases people's identity. It makes their vulnerabilities their whole personhood.It [00:13:00] it, it limits them to a very narrow way of. , and I think there's cult speak outside of, you know, there's a lot of cult speak in the business world. There's a lot of cult speaking, just American culture when it comes to politics. So I'm against all of it across the board, the one I'm just super familiar with, and can get very detailed and very like you know, just kind of a prime example.And unfortunately a very big example in the US is Christianity. And one of the ways, it's the biggest example is it's absurd that the largest cult is the most protected class of people in the country. Like, that's concerning to me. We have an organiza a loosely organized group of people that are protected by constitutional rights and legal rights more than anyone.and they're not oppressed, but they're that protected and that's a very dangerous, as we've seen, very dangerous combination. So they're worth talking about the most, and it's the one I can [00:14:00] talk about the most, but I'm against cults across the board. I'm not just bitter about my church hurt, I'm not just upset because of this, that, and the other.This is a real problem that really needs to be talked about in real ways and real solutions need to happen. De'Vannon: That's interesting you say like the, these ultimate people's vulnerabilities, their whole personality. I've never heard it stated like that before. So from from the people who've reached out to you in response to your book or your show or the work that you're doing, do you have any sort of, I don't know if we would call it a testimony, any kind of bullshit somebody shared with you that a, a church or a cult put them through that was particularly scary or moving to you that you can recall?John: Yes. To me. So I, I have two thi things that I think of with that question. One is, nothing surprises [00:15:00] me anymore. Nothing . It, it can still hurt. It can still shock me. It never surprises me. It only makes me feel like, yeah, that makes sense. And frankly, I only feel like I was five clicks away from being the victim or perpetrator of whatever bad thing happened, because that's what the system breeds.It, it breeds perpetrators and victims . I mean, that's just what it does. There's, there's many horrifying stories. Sometimes I avoid telling them because, When you tell like a really I guess salacious, for lack of a better word story, like someone who, like, you know, I have an episode of my podcast where I interview a guy who was kidnapped by Christians, right?About as extreme as it can get. What people do is go, well, those Christians were crazy. Those were the crazy ones. [00:16:00] Or like, if someone talks about, you know, this is unfortunately becoming, we're all becoming aware how common this is. When someone was sexually harassed or abused by someone in the church they, they go, well, that, that guy needs to leave.Like he's, you know, he's bad. And, and the church would, that church was bad, but you should come to my church. You should do this, you should do that. It, it just gets a little exhausting for me to kind of engage and. Let me tell you this horrible story because frankly, the horrible story doesn't change anyone's mind because the cult won't let it change your mind because your empathy has been pressure washed out of you.You, you don't, you don't ha the story doesn't tug at you because the thing that tugs at you more is you've been told how ashamed you are and how shameful your existence is. And the only hope for reming that shame is believing in Jesus Christ. And so that belief that's so firmly held is actually gonna [00:17:00] trump your ability to be empathetic towards someone's story.So yeah, I could sit here and I could, off the top of my head at least tell you three stories that would make a lot of people who are unfamiliar with churches that would make their jaw drop, but it wouldn't change anything. And it's very sad because we want to believe that people's horrifying stories change stuff.And I think it does and to, and I think it can. . But I think a lot of the times it actually ends up being counterproductive because the cults, the cult leaders are anticipating that they've already done a lot of work to build a firewall against that particular human thing of storytelling to promote change.You know, I no better example than like Martin Luther King Jr. Right. You know, told amazing stories, was a great orator. Not the per, not a perfect person, but someone who told a lot of great stories and who was, showed the impact. And we like to [00:18:00] pretend that that changed the church and up more positive direction.But did it, I mean, I, I mean, what, what tangible, measurable things can we point to that were changed within church culture? I'm not talking about American culture in general. There was great things that came outta the Civil Rights Movement. What did the church really change? Not a lot. It just changed their verbiage, which they always changed their verbiage.But, but systemically what really changed. So if you want horrible stories, I can give them, but that's why I'm hesitant to a lot of the time is cuz I'm not sure it's actually that helpful. De'Vannon: What you said is, look, you said what you said . Okay. Did I accept that when I think of Martin Luther King or any of the civil rights, I never, ever think about the church, you know, except for the fact that the church stood silently by why people were murdered in the streets and stuff like that, you know?You know. [00:19:00] How's it say that? Well, John: and, and I mean, I mean, even Evangelicals hated Martin Luther King Jr. They called him a thug. They. There, there's a letter from the guy who wrote the Left Behind books. There's a letter from him to Wheaton College because they had a memorial service after King was shot.And he said, how could you celebrate the life of this man? They didn't just passively like, not like m l K, they hated him. Jerry Falwell hated Martin Luther King Jr. Because he was for segregation. So like, and again, like I, I, you know, I know this is an intense topic to go to right off the bat, , but, but I just think, I think we, I think sometimes those of us who have left the church think if we just tell enough stories of how bad we've been hurt, Christians will change.They don't give a shit. They don't, and it's, and some of it's not even their fault. A lot of the followers have been brainwashed to not give a shit. And [00:20:00] so the, the best hope is we can, with our stories, what we can do is help people who have already left know that they're not alone. Which is huge and that's really important work and people who are looking for a way out might find the way out.But if you're talking about systemically changing what cult leaders are gonna do it, it ain't gonna do shit. De'Vannon: Right. I concur. So, you know, that's why like in my ministry, man, I am preaching not to church people, but the people who have already been hurt or people who, who know people and love people who have been hurt because people don't go to church for the betterment of humanity.People go to church for entirely selfish reasons, to keep themselves outta hell, to work out their own self, soul, salvation, whatever it is. They're going there to get their blessing, their miracle. They're come up, they're not going there cuz they give a fuck about you. And then so yeah, I concur. There is no talking to them hardheaded people.Like if they're setting up there every god damn Sunday or whatever, they're not gonna be able to hear us [00:21:00] because they're constantly being re indoctrinated and re hypnotized by the big man up on stage or we god damn week. or the woman or the who of the fuck ever twirling about. So yeah, they're a lost cause shot of a miracle.John: Yeah. I, or also just explaining systemically what happens, you know, if you, if you're able to generalize it more than just a specific person, like one person's story and you can show them the patterns. You know, I used to be a cult leader, you know, I studied to be a pastor. I got out, I was hardheaded then.But the reason I got out was not because I heard a story that was finally, you know, enough, it was cuz I kept seeing the same thing over and over again. And I was like, this is just how a cult operates. And I was in denial about it. So I think cult leaders, the way you do reach them is say, don't you know what you're doing?Like, you know? Right. And if you actually focus the conversation on that and not just the extreme cases of bad things that happen, but actually point [00:22:00] to like the pattern. Like, okay, so do you have control over your congregation? . Like, that's a great question to ask a pastor because they'll, they'll struggle.They cannot give a yes or no que answer to it. But just be like, do you have control over your congregation? And you'll it then watch how they react. Cuz you'll see some interesting things. . You De'Vannon: can also ask 'em to apologize for something and get that same reaction cuz those bastards won't say they're sorry.And so, so now that you're speaking about control, I wanted to talk about, so y'all, his book, the called of Christianity is broken down into three succulent sections. The first one is called control. The section one is the sexual, the sec, second one is called Contained. Clearly I need to gimme some dick.Where the fuck did that come from? And the third one is called Convert. And you'll always, whenever you hear John's talk, he'll always say, control, contain, convert, control, contain, convert. And so, and that's how his book is broken down. And if I may, I'm gonna [00:23:00] read a little sniff it. That kind of echoes what you were just saying.And Howard, I had already taken down in my notes. Now, this is John speaking y'all, and he's saying, I don't recant anything in this letter. I said, holding back tears. I was feeling tired, dressed down, confused and hurt, yet unwilling to go again. So what I knew to be true, the truth was I had spent three hours in a boardroom that reminded me of the one I had seen in The Apprentice.I want you to tell us what the hell was going on here and why were you crying. . John: So yeah, so this is the first chapter of the book, and this is kind of, I, I, you know, my, my rose bud, my whatever, my my or villain or hero origin story, depending on how you look at it. So I was 16 years old going to a pretty stuffy church Presbyterian church, p c a for whoever that means [00:24:00]something to suit and tie church.And I was, I was angsty, you know, at the same time I was also in a punk band. I had grown out my hair. I was still very Christian, like, very conservative Christian, in fact. But I, you know, was around people who, you know, I, I, I was ex, I was becoming an adult, right? Like in as much as a teenager does.And the church was just ridiculous. And so, like, I, I had this whole rigamarole of, of beef with the, the leadership of the church. So I sent a letter. to email. I emailed the pastor and said, here are my problems with this church. And I had broken it into four sections of just like, they don't respect the youth of this church.They have a bad view of music. That was important to me cuz they were like, they had this whole, like, contemporary music is evil. They were like one of those. And [00:25:00] then they there were a couple other things. Oh, they, the way they hated Catholics actually really bothered me. The way they talked about Catholics was very not okay in my opinion.And then basically I'd told them I would never invite a friend to church here. Like I would never, like, do y'all want to actually save people? Because I would never invite. Yeah. So I wrote this whole long letter, sent it to the pastor. He forwarded it to the elders. I told my dad afterwards about it and my dad and dad was like, can I read it?And I was like, sure. I signed it to him. He is like, all right, proud of you. This is good stuff. . And so I told my parents that I wanted to face the elders alone. So we would go to their session room, which was a long wooden table, had like chairs on all around it. And then on the wall it had pictures of Martin Luther.It had Swingley and it had John Calvin. And then it had like these bookshelves that [00:26:00] were just like full of like reformation propaganda. And so it's me and the three elders I knew the most. And then for, for three hours they talked to me about how my long hair was sinful, which was the first time like, I thought, only crazy churches believe that, right?And they were like, no, you're trying to look like the world with your hair. And I was like, what? And then they talked about my best friend who dressed in all black, like how, you know, they're dressing in all black. Same friend was in the band with me and was just like, said, they look like the world.Talk to me about how I was the one who was disrespecting them. They weren't disrespectful of you, of youth. I was disrespectful to them and that yeah, that basically I, and, and I didn't confront them correctly. I shouldn't have written a letter. When you have a problem with someone, you go and confront them, and then if they don't listen, you bring another, you [00:27:00] know, the whole Matthew 18 dumb ass shit.And so I just, I, I was a wreck and so I cried. Eventually my dad came in, and that's the cool part of the story. My dad comes in and he goes, what happened? And, well, no, my dad comes in and actually the first things outta his mouth was who was yelling at my son. And it was a, it was a good moment for me and my dad.Our, our relationship only got stronger after that moment. then they started talking about the hair and stuff. Then my dad goes, look behind you. And there's like, you know, his wingy with his long beard and stuff, and he is like, and my dad goes, the person who sh what? I can't even remember the terminology anymore.The person who led me to the Lord, that's how they talk. The person who led me to the Lord had long hair. Like, what are you talking about? You know? and so it kind of got tense and then yeah, at the end I say I don't recant, which was a paraphrase of what [00:28:00] Martin Luther said when he was brought before, Catholics and, and excommunicated.cuz I thought that would be an extra sting of, since they idolize this man so much. that was the first time I switched from being a blind follower. I stayed a Christian for many years after that, but I stopped blindly following what church leaders say that day. De'Vannon: I like that whole recant thing.Like I was saying earlier that you said what? You said , I'm might, I might hit a bitch with that one day I recant, not it. John: Lost the fuck out. Yeah. It, it's a little dramatic. Well, because they, well, one of the elders said like, do you, do you have like, I want to give you the last word. Is there anything you wanna say?Because I could tell by the look on their face, they felt like they did something good. They felt like they did a good job of putting me back on the right path. [00:29:00] And I was like, guys, y'all just proved everything I said. Like, I, why would I recant anything? and they were, they were mad frankly. They were mad.De'Vannon: They always are. They, they were that way with Lakewood, you know, you know, when they, when the ki when the, when the kids choir director and the adult choir director were firing me from all aspects of volunteering for not being straight. Despite the, despite, aside from the fact they would call me in the office and question who I'm dating and stuff like that, trying to get all into who I'm fucking and whatnot.Well, I mean, we can't even fuck even doing all that. Just, you know, or hold hands or shit, I guess, whatever their rules were, you know? Mm-hmm. , when they offered me their conversion therapy package in order to stay and to be demoted, quote unquote, to an usher from being on, you know, camera and television and stuff in the more public ministries, and I got up to walk the fuck out, they were so confused, you know, that I didn't accept their conversion [00:30:00] therapy package.And they, when they were talking to me, they felt like they, they, they, they felt like I had hurt them and offended them. You know? Like, how could you, how could you hang out with gay people when you're not here, ? John: Yeah. I mean, when you, when you think, when you, you, when you think you're divinely appointed by God people aren't supposed to argue with you.And if they do, they're spo. If someone argues with you, they're arguing with the Lord. I mean, there's some who would never say, no, no, no, no, no. Like it's, it's, I don't, I don't have that kind of authority, blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, but in practice, like, I mean, this is what we keep agreeing to by showing up to church is that you're divinely appointed by God to do whatever the hell you wanna do, frankly And so, I, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's, but it's so sad, right? It's so sad that it happens to not only, you know, [00:31:00] adults or like people who've put a lot of work into the church. it happens to very vulnerable people. It happens like in my case, to a child. I mean, I was 16 years old and I had grown ass men ripping me a new one because I just challenged their bad behavior.I mean, this is what we were working with. Imagine if I was like a woman when I did that, or like, You know, or, or like, you know, not, not white, you know? yeah, like, I, I, I mean, it's just horrifying, right? It's, it's all about once you deviate from, the, the program, I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna experience some, some shaming at minimum.De'Vannon: Hmm. Some shaming in some shade. Yeah. Especially white men, they don't like to be told what to do and, and that they're wrong. They're accustomed to stepping on all the little brown people and stuff like that. But for the record, my brother, I think you got plenty of soul. You are always invited for the motherfucking cookout.any damn [00:32:00] day about to be crawfish season down here. Come stay with me. I got room in my house. I'll get you some soul food and fattening you up a little bit. , John: man, I miss soul food. You know, there's obviously a lot of great stuff here in Atlanta, but now I'm vegan, so like, so much of it is like off the table for me now.It's very sad. De'Vannon: So that means no crawfishes for you. Well, vegan is not. Yeah. There's no dairy in that, right? There's no dairy in, yeah, video1579991175: but John: it's a, it, it's an animal though. De'Vannon: You can't eat any animals either. John: Okay. I'm gonna have no animal, no dairy, some vegan De'Vannon: seafood shit for you. John: So some collards though. I can have some collards, which is good.You know, I De'Vannon: grow mustard greens. I got them in the backyard right now. Ooh. Okay. I cut you a pot. John: Let's goDe'Vannon: So the section called contain mm-hmm. march. Stuck out to me. In, in, in here. So I have long loathed Christian people for this fake oppression and things like that. Like what you mentioned earlier. We're gonna talk about [00:33:00] the myth of Chris and Daria. Mm-hmm. , after we talk about this whole people not wanting to make cake for the gaze.Bullshit. I like the way you said it. I'm gonna read a little ex sweeped as bugs bunnies, , sometimes racist ass would. Say he can't help how Disney dressed him. Sometimes he was in drag, sometimes he was talking to people in blackface. But there's a whole thing out there on YouTube about, you know, Disney and the different cartoons, racism.Go look it up cuz unfortunately Bugsy was in there too. So Romans 12 versus 20 through 21. This is from the book, says to the contrary, if your enemy is hangry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink For Baso doing, he will heap pointing cold on his head. So do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good.John goes on to say, perceiving gay folks as enemies is [00:34:00] problematic in and of itself, but even if you do, I fail to see how refusing to give people some cake. Cake, cake, cake, cake scores you any brownie points for the God.John: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it is wild, right? Like that's, it's, it's, it's just, and it shows the contrary, like there's an evangelical message of we need to serve all people. And then there's another message that they're saying at the same time is like, but not if, I'm like, well, if there's a but not if, then the first thing doesn't make any sense.De'Vannon: And Jesus is saying, it is your most basic bitch Christian level. You gotta feed a bitch. You know, two people can be in a relationship and on the verge of divorce. I mean, if a pot of food is cooking, you, you can at least share that. I mean, yeah. Nevertheless, you've been commanded to do so. You're not supposed to leave people starving and without clothing.No matter how much you [00:35:00] disdain them, you're supposed to piss on them if they're on fire. It's stuff like that, no matter how much you don't want to mm-hmm. . So you conservative assholes out there when you don't wanna make me a cake because I walked in with eyeshadow on, just know. You're written of in the scriptures.You hateful ho. Yeah. Now then this myth of oppression, like you talked about earlier. Christians are a bunch of big fucking Karens running around something like. The God the world is against them. The moment they can't stop. I don't know, a trans athlete from participating in sports, then, oh my God, I'm being silenced.My rights are not being heard. I'm being so persecuted. Bitch, no one's coming after you. You just got told no for trying to come after somebody else. No one actually attacked you. . Mm-hmm. . I can't say anything more about this. So tell us who the hell, Chris. Chris and Aria . John: If, if memory serves me, I was telling you before we started recording, I, I wrote this [00:36:00]book a while ago, so I'm like, I don't actually remember all, everything, but the, that's the, the couple that supposedly got saved early on and, and really it was all about Chastity.Like they were like this couple that was, you know, like, oh, chastity is so great. and then because they're seeking to convert others. I think according to the story, it's Rome supposedly who throws a, i I think one gets fed to a lion, the other gets fed, burned at the stake, whatever. It's a pretty classic version of just early church persecution.There's a million different stories like this of just like different Christian heroes who were early Christians who, you know got converted and, and then they, you know like start, started bolstering the movement and Rome doesn't like it, so they killed them. 90% of those stories aren't true. They never happened.They were made up. It was just, it was just made [00:37:00] up. I mean, I really don't know what else to say about it. It's just, it's unverified. There were a few that happened and there was also some early Jewish persecution in that same time. That was absolutely happening. , but Jewish Christians, which was what they were at first did that kind of lumped their Jewish Christ Christendom beliefs with other sex of Judaism that were actually being persecuted.And so it just became this kind of whole glob of like of myth of saying that like, oh, if the people find out you're Christian, they'll wanna kill you for it. And that bread, like this whole martyrdom complex which is very similar obviously to a Messiah complex. And so yeah, it's just, it just, there's a lot of stories like that that, you know, you, you're free to fact check.Never happened. But they're told from the pulpit they're, you know, they're told the old, you'll hear a mirror million [00:38:00] different versions of basically like they were singing songs while they were being burned alive. They were reciting scripture while they were being burned alive. Didn't happen.It just wasn't very common. Occasionally there was some mob violence that was killing Christians, but it just wasn't a common thing. De'Vannon: I can't believe that the band was really playing as the Titanic ship went down either . But if that's what might not have, well, if that's what Rose wanna say, then we'll have to believe Rose or what the fuck ever.I want that diamond bitch, you know? . Okay, . So basically the Christian Church is a bunch of drama queens and stuff like that. And I, I, I don't know, you know what I want you to talk about, like, people who leave the [00:39:00] church and like blame themselves or haven't been duped by them because I went through that for like a really long time. , you know, it's like I was mad at myself, as they say, for buying this bullshit. True. I, looking back on it now, with a healthy mind, I was vulnerable.They took advantage of me, but I did not think that way for a many, many years. It's like, why was I so stupid? Why did I let them do that? You know, there's a grieving that happened in some, some self-loathing that came in there on me.John: Well, let me tell you a story. Yesterday I was driving to the grocery store and I saw someone on the side of the road that had a sign that said, Jesus saves. And I got outta my car and I went and talked to them. After about 30 minutes, I realized this was the most beautiful person I ever met. And guess what?The story I just told you is not. [00:40:00] So no . Not that I've just made that up. I didn't go to the grocery store yesterday. Oh. So the thing got me yo , I got, I got everybody. And that's why you shouldn't feel duped. We trust, that's what we do as humans. When someone's put, when something's put in a story form, we're compelled by what they're saying.That doesn't make anyone stupid. That makes us have empathy. That makes us like beautiful people. We don't need to blame ourselves. We need to blame people who take advantage of that. Now, I was able to just tell you I was lying and no harm is really done right. , we gotta now, but there might be a listener who goes, oh, I can't trust this guy.If he's able to lie that good, you know, fine. Don't. But the thing is, churches have built an entire system that took the storytelling, the beautiful storytelling of Judaism and just wrecked it for their own purposes. and added, took away, changed, edited [00:41:00] the story. You are not stupid for wanting to believe in a story that, that, that, that's just the thing you have to know.There's no, there's no stupidity. It's all on them . It's all on them to bear the responsibility of, of having power, of having and kind of a monopoly on redemption narratives. I mean, they've kind of created this universe literally where the, they, they have a redemptive narrative that is attributed to them.They should wield that power carefully, and they don't. So no. Anyone who gets caught up in believing it, don't blame yourself for that. That's, you're a human being. Don't blame yourself for very normal human things to do. And don't blame other people who are still believing it. understand where they're coming from.It does take work. It's not easy. I don't have a [00:42:00] magic bullet solution, but I just think being aware of why you fell for it is important. Cuz most people didn't fall for it for evil reasons. They usually fell for it for really, really good, important reasons. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: So a another quote that you say from your book, it's concerning these foolish people.You say, John says, y'all the claim that they are in a relationship with Christ, that their churches are their families and that they love sinners, but hate sin and that divine beauty is interwoven through all of it. John says, cool story bro. Doesn't mean you're on a cult. . John: Yeah. Well, and it's true. It's just like there's, there's a, there's an element of family that, that they pretend to provide.and that's fine. And sometimes it, it's not all pretend. Sometimes they do some really important things for each other. I don't see why that's intention with the idea that they're a [00:43:00] cult though. I, I, I think, I think you can do good things while being in a cult. I just think cults are bad things. De'Vannon: Just don't drink the Kool-Aid bitches.I'm just saying. Pour it upon the ground and run the fuck away. So then the final run, run, run, run for is run. So the final section called Convert. Hmm. I thought this was such a confident statement for you, for you to write, and I just, I'm just like reading it cause we wanna talk about hell and whether or not you believe it's real, because one of his chapters is I believe it's called a, a yeah, it's called a made up thing called Hell.Y'all. John is the most titillating, tantalizing, thought provoking. This makes you wanna dive into them like some good pussy or some good pussy. Chapter titles. I mean, the, the, the, the, the, I'm gonna read some of 'em. Slave Segregation, sorry. Faux wait. Merit faux [00:44:00] Meritocracy with a side of the Theocratic Tyranny.Selective History, the Myth of Oppression. Made of thing. Call held superficial and super fiscal. You know, the, the, the, just the Fuckings chapter Titles are art. You know what it's gonna be about. And, you know, shit's gonna be edgy and fresh and everything that, that, you know, that we need right now. And so, whew, chapter ta fucking chapter titles gave me life.So, so from, from, yeah. The John: chapter titles are better than the book. So , De'Vannon: that right there is exactly what I'm gonna read now. You exude so much fucking confidence because of the way you're able to slay yourself and kind of make fun of yourself, but then not really, you know, you have to have like the biggest pp or just not even care because you, you just, you're just so like authentically you and you're so like, relaxed about it.Y'all, this is what John says about himself growing up. He says, I doubt [00:45:00] I am the only one to have grown up dabbling in mature discussion topic. It is way too. Wait, what the fuck? Wait, wait. Lemme say that again. I doubt I'm the only one that have grown up dabbling, mature discussion topics way too young to remember being younger than 10 and debating with my cousins over suspicion about who goes to hell.Young is honestly, I'm sure of any philosophers, theologians, our professional commentators, communicators have been around or had been around for this adolescent think tank vomit, would escape from their mouths quicker than corrections even. So good for us for trying to figure out life's deepest questions.And I thought, how, how? Just confident, you know, just to, just to be able to look back on yourself and laugh without being negatively critical. You know, like, I can't believe I thought or did that way. Ha ha ha, ha ha. But here I [00:46:00] am today, so. Can you speak to us about that sort of self-confidence? Where did you get that from?How are you able to look back and say, my God, you know, I was a mess, but not attack yourself. You know, just appreciate where you were then while taking in where you are now. Make jokes about it and just go on swinging your big dick through life, . John: So how do you Well, I was gonna say, I was gonna say the large penis is most of itBut I, no, I think it's so here's the thing. Truth be told, most of my friends would not describe me as confident. Writing provides a, allows me to be the best version of myself. And so what comes across in my writing as confidence is probably what I want to be. It's not always what I am. [00:47:00] The other answer I'll give is therapy.I, I punish and it used to be worse. So I've come a long way, but I punish myself for some of who I was. But I had a therapist. Tell me once how many years is enough to punish you for what you did? On very different things, you know? I mean, I have a, I have a lot of shame about all sorts of things I wish I had done differently in life.But what's, but what's my sentence, right? Like, what, what, what, how long do I have to negatively talk about who I was before? It's enough, before enough time has passed, before I've given myself enough lashes, so to speak. Like, what's the number? Put a number to it. And when she said that to me, it kind of, just reshaped how I thought about things.I'm like, there really isn't anything [00:48:00] stopping me from being the person who I want to be. So that's a little deeper answer than that little anecdote about me talking to my cousins about hell . It was. But I think I, I appreciate you seeing that that that is something actively working on as we speak, and something I want to get better at is, and it's not so much self-confidence, although I, I, I, I, I know I'm witty and I, you know, I, there's just certain personality traits I know about myself.But I wanna love myself and I haven't figured it out yet, but I used to not even want to. And that's the, the biggest change that happened in my life is when I, not, not when I woke up one day and started loving myself, but when I woke up one day and said, loving myself should be a goal. because for a long time it wasn't even a goal, and I was indoctrinated to believe that it would actually steer me away from heaven or my loved ones, or [00:49:00] love in general.If I tried to love myself, I would become selfish. I would become sinful. I would become self-serving because the only way, proper way to love yourself would be to love God. I don't agree with that anymore. I, I think that I th first off, there's a trope going around that's been going around for a while, that you have to love yourself before you can love other people.Bullshit. I'm calling bullshit on it. You can love people so deeply while you hate yourself. You can, you can have all sorts of love. The, the, the, the truth behind that trope is it will not be sustained. You can't sustain love for other people if you're not actively practicing love with yourself.Because love is a practice. It's not just like a thing, you can't help. It takes work, it takes choices. It does take feelings, but it takes controlled [00:50:00] feelings. It takes managed feelings. And for most people it takes some therapy. And therapy can look different for different people. It doesn't have to be sitting on a couch.You know, I, I used to do activity therapy with my therapist going on walks. You know there's all sorts of things you can do for you, and no one's gonna know what you need more than you. But yeah, I, when I look back at my past self, I do feel a lot of shame. But the fact that my goal is to not makes all the difference in the.De'Vannon: Well, I hope you overcome all of that. And I just, there no, remember Jesus being on the cross where I think he had a murder on one hand and a thief on the other? And you know, the Lord says the only sin he won't forgive you for is if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost, which is not something really easy to do.I don't think most people even know what the fuck that means. And so that doesn't mean that as a human we don't have to work through, you know, shame and [00:51:00] guilt. But, you know, I just always like to remind people, you know, and you of that, you know, all things are forgiven no matter what, you know, you know, according to the word of, of Jesus and his work on the cross.So this means a murdering people, oh God, fuck y'all. I'm not saying go out and slice people down, just thinking, go run to the church and ask for forgiveness. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying like, if you're sitting in jail somewhere and you done done it and it's been 20 years and you killed whatever person, Okay, that's over.Now, you know, you have a path forward, but Jesus does require us to tell the truth about everything, you know, to make whatever amends we can to people realistically, you know, and safely, you know, if the person's around, he wants us to as, as, as he says, leave our gift at the altar and go get right with the person.And not to let the sun go down on our anger. But there is always redemption. There is always grace, is grace is sufficient for us. No matter what you have done, you just don't blast being the Holy Ghost. Everything else. It's fine. I regret having sold so many god damn narcotics to people who I [00:52:00]could tell were too, were so weak-willed that I could bend them, you know, to, to my, to my desire.You know, sometimes I think about that, but you know what? It's over. I don't sell drugs anymore. I hate the fact that I prayed on them in their vulnerabilities. You know, to make myself feel good. That's John: such a big one. Can, can I focus on two things real quick? Whatever the hell you want. Okay. Okay. Because pr preying on vulnerabilities is a big part of my shame too.Hmm. And it's really hard because I grew up in a cult that taught me how to pray on people's vulnerabilities. Subtly, not like explicitly, but just being in that environment and all of that. So that's a hard, hard thing. So good on ya. For, for, you're correct. I mean, it's something you can't change.It's not, you know, the damage is done. And you do have to accept that that was a u that [00:53:00]doesn't exist anymore or even more accurately. That's a u that you've done work to and make sure that you're not prey on vulnerable people anymore. And whatever small bit of you that was either naturally good at it or indoctrinated to be good at preying on other people, if you're able to change that about yourself, you are so much better off than so many people who are in the cult who cannot turn that off and have no mechanism to turn that off.The second thing is I don't think you need Jesus for that forgiveness and grace personally. I don't wanna take it away from anyone . That's not, that's not my personality. I'm like, if that, if that, but I just, I would, I would be amiss and offbrand if I didn't if I didn't say you do not need Jesus to have grace.You need yourself to give grace to yourself. Forgiveness is something you can offer yourself to. And [00:54:00] so I, I just, I, I have to get that in there of like, Jesus is a cool archetype, is a cool story, is a cool whatever for it, but you don't need it. And if it's too triggering for you, walk the fuck away.Get the fuck out of there. You don't need it. De'Vannon: I say both because even with Jesus offering all, even when Jesus offering all the forgiveness in the world, if a person cannot accept it or cannot conceptualize that as a reality, then it, it'll never, even though they have it, it won't be in their reality. So to them it won't exist.And so I, I hear you on the self-work part of it. I throw Jesus in there. John doesn't, why, why don't you, why don't you feel like, so do you think, do you, do you think Jesus is more of like a story if he was like a cool guy, do you not believe that he is the son of God? Oh, he is not John: Well, and I'll say why he is not First off, Jesus is only as much God as you and I are.In my [00:55:00] opinion is how I would spin that if I wanted to. Son of God was coined by Paul. Jesus never said he was a son of God. He does make that like illusion where in, in John where he says like I am the father or whatever. Son of God is specifically a Greek term that Paul was using because that was a more familiar Greek idea.Judaism did not have the idea of a son of God. The Jewish understanding of Messiah was not supposed to be a God. It was supposed to be an enlightened human being. So those are just things that developed later. So I just, that terminology doesn't resonate in my worldview. Again, I'm not here to necessarily dog on people's personal beliefs, at least of all yours.But, but I, I more just want to make that clear distinction that it's like what I like about Jesus. Is what's reported about him through a very biased lens, , and through like a very [00:56:00] like developed and evolved narrative, the redemption narrative that we've landed on with Jesus is incredibly powerful, and I think a beautiful story that is probably more beautiful than any other story in literature I can think of.And there might be some sort of value that you can attach to it. I just don't think you need to worship Jesus to get anything De'Vannon: interesting. Oh, I don't take any of this personal, I'm always one thing about Christianity in the, in the, in the, the pursuit of spirituality. In my humility, I guess it might not be too humble for me to call myself humble, but you know, like , that my fucking humility, my fucking god damn humility, I, I understand that not everything is known about the approach to God, the approach to the trinity.You know, I don't believe that I have all the answers and I have enough sense to know anything that I think could be wrong, except for in the case that I've had, like [00:57:00] something miraculous happen, like a dream, a vision, an angelic appearance, you know, a touch by the Holy Ghost, you know, or something like that, you know?Mm-hmm. , my personal experiences, you know, you know, are non-negotiable to me, but my understanding of word of, of what's written absolutely negoti because you know, as I've gotten more into it in trying to learn the original Bible languages and the way they were written in the cultural influence and stuff like that, I've had something like, wow moments.Like, what the fuck? Now, when I was over in the Middle East last year, you know, I was shocked to learn that, you know, where was I at? I was in the United Arab Emirates. You had an Egyptian tour guide and stuff like that, and he was all like taking us all these moss and stuff. He was like, , we don't believe that Messiah has come, you know?Mm-hmm. at all. They're, they're like, Jesus was cool, and they're all about worshiping God. They believe Allah and God are like the same to them, but they're like, N Jesus just one of the other enlightened ones, but they're very dedicated to their, to [00:58:00] God and everything like that. I feel like more dedicated than Christians are, and they're more real about it and shit like that.You know, if I, you know, I could, I could easily fit into, into, you know, the Arabic culture over there. So I'm not surprised to hear you say that you don't necessarily think Jesus is the son of God, because those people don't either. I, I choose to believe that they're massive prosperity comes from their devotion to who they believe in and the way that they treat each other.Mm-hmm. so, so So, so what you're saying is based on what you read and researched Son of God, and Jesus always called himself the son of man according to what I read. You know, but, but I've never, I've never what considered what you've said before, that someone else called him Son of God, you know, he never called himself a Christian.You know, anything like that. Or as you put it, John, you say, every man before Jesus came up with rules, Jesus got rid of him. And then every man after [00:59:00] him added more rules. Mm-hmm. . So people, yeah, people tend to like to add shit. I quote you on that from time to time on my show, I'll be like, John Vanier said this, and soJohn: Yeah. Well, and to be very clear, I, I, I admire and even dare say I'm am inspired by Jesus. But I just, I just, the only, the only thing when it comes to the practical side of things is just anytime my, like my alarm bells go off, when there's a direct tie between, you need Jesus. . That's just like a big red flag to me.Not because some people might need Jesus actually, like personally in their own personal life, it might enrich it, it might give them a spirituality. I like to think of it as a template. It gives them like a template for their spirituality. That's great. But the second it's pe all people need Jesus.Then I'm like, fuck no. I'm like, , get, get that, get that outta my face. Because that is, [01:00:00] in my opinion, going back to the artwork. That's what can create that like hierarchy is just creating that need for Jesus. De'Vannon: Yeah, and that's another thing. I have enough goddamn fucking humility to, to realize that not everybody's going to be a follower of.I know that, you know, as I, as I say, from time to time, I'll hang out with somebody who, who sucks Satan's dick, as long as they're not trying to personally hurt me, because not everybody's gonna be a Christian. Mm-hmm. or be a follower. I hate, I hate the word Christian. So do you feel the same way about like God and the Holy Spirit?Like in terms of non deifying them? John: Woo. Man, once you open up the Trinity, that's a whole freaking new, that's a universe. I'll know if you, if you read that after, after the prologue of, of my book. But I, I believe it's cut off into three sections. Jesus was awesome. God might be [01:01:00] great, and the Holy Spirit haunts me.And the, the God might be great is kind of a, a nod to Christopher Hitchens, who's one of my favorite authors who wrote God is Not Great. Because my, my answer to him is, well, he might be. , but probably not. You know, it's kind of like, yeah, the, I, I, I know what you're saying, but you know, I also understand that most people, for most of history, I think it's a very arrogant stance to to act like the idea of God is silly.I think that's a pretty arrogant stance to have. So it's not one I take when I say the Holy Spirit haunts me. There are spiritual experiences, like you said, for you, they're non-negotiable, right? Like you have these experiences that define your life. I've had those myself. Here's the thing, they are negotiable for me.And I would love to just say this was all in my head. I [01:02:00] can't, I can't know that , but I would love to be able to say that. So for me, I, it's a little different because Jesus, the character of Jesus is the one that's especially in evangelicalism, but in Christianity as a whole, is the one who's dare I say, name has been taken in vain.The most you know, as far as like using him as a character, using him in a very manipulative way. When you get to the Holy Spirit, like you can get really culty really quick when you start talking about like Pentecostals and like, you know, just some of the hooping and the hollering and God told me this, so it must be true that that stuff is yikes.But the concept of God is kind of, has no meaning because the word God means so many different things to so many, to the, to each individual we imagine him that that's like in the, in the proper sense, we imagine him. So maybe less dangerous than, [01:03:00] than. You know, saying you need God is probably less dangerous than saying you need Jesus, but I'd prefer you to say neither, you know and you need the Holy Spirit might be even more dangerous, but it's just probably rarer, you know?But yeah, I don't know if those are just initial thoughts. Again, because, because I'm not an atheist. I don't, I don't claim to be, but I think atheists get a lot of shit because people think they're crazy. And I'm like, well, they're certainly not crazy. I mean, they're the most rational of all of us.They, they're just, you know, I, I just, I just don't identify with it. But I, all of that to say I just love all people and I don't want people to feel like they have to go through a very narrow lens in order to receive love, forgiveness, whatever they want to receive in life. They don't need Jesus for that.They don't need God for that. They don't need the Holy Spirit for. De'Vannon: why.you say you feel like you're, like, what I would call a, like an indisputable encounter with God that I [01:04:00] had. I find it non-negotiable. You said you would like yours to be negotiable. Mm-hmm. , why do you say you would like to be, or you like still fighting against your, the church or your experience?So if God approached you personally, what you're, what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, it's really not negotiable, but you would like it to be. John: Why? I know it's not negotiable for you and I know it's not negotiable for most people. It is negotiable for me. How do you the, the, the thing? Yeah. Well, I don't, most of the time cuz I, I got other shit I gotta doThink about it. But no, I, I, you know, I, I had, I had a, I have a conversion story. I, I felt the presence of God or Jesus or whatever I, I assume as much as anyone. I mean, right? Like I went and studied to be a pastor, like clearly it meant something. I don't think I was just a full on narcissist who was like, oh, I'm gonna be the voice of God, like, da da da da da.Like, I don't, I really don't think, I think it was motivated. [01:05:00] Pretty hol wholesomely and like . I thought it was a, I prayed a lot. I prayed more than anybody I knew, you know? Like, I'm like, surely this was all real, right? I don't know. I was 11. What the fuck do you know, at 11? Like, I'm, I'm like, there, there's, and what do you know when you've been indoctrinated for over a decade?That when you feel certain things, it's definitely this. Oh, like, I'm like, you know, there's like, there's placebos, there's, there's all sorts of things we know about what we can do with our own brain. Then I'm like, I'm not gonna say it was definitely this, or definitely that. I don't know, and I probably never will know, but I'm not gonna live my life based on those experiences because that is that's cheating myself out of a very full life.De'Vannon: Okay, I see what you're saying. What you're saying is due to, you haven't been such a young Impressional age when you went through everything, you don't know if that's like some sort of P t s D, some sort John: of, or, [01:06:00] or even in adult life, you know, like there, I had spiritual moments, if you wanna call 'em that, like an adult life, you know, I was a worship leader.I, I remember very vividly sometimes I was leading worship and like, would be struck with something that felt otherworldly. The whole g the whole gauntlet, whatever a Christian can tell you about their experiences with Jesus, I'll see you one and I'll raise you one, you know, but but I just, I'm just like, but I'm not gonna pretend that because I felt like it was something and I was told to feel like it was something that, it definitely was that thing.I, I just, I wanna, I wanna have a little more humility than that and have a little more understanding of alternative worldviews. De'Vannon: I think churches should start paying all of us reparation checks, s for all this motherfucking mental health shit that we have. So yeah, the checks need to start. The money needs to start flowing the other fucking way away from these churches and

INTRODUCTION: Master Joshua: Why I do what I do My whole purpose is to help people self-actualize. I've walked my own journey of identity for as long as I can remember. And in my life's journey, adversity, stress, anger and sadness all came in different forms. What I do with my work is take the experience of trying to find myself, my struggles with self-acceptance and help clear paths so that people can ask themselves these questions. We talk through it. I want people to find their authenticity in expression and existence, to be able to sit in their truth not just in BDSM, but in their entire life. I needed to accept myself around my struggles with resentment about the color of my skin and my stress around expression. What was it like to find peace within myself? What did it mean to work through my relationships and find peace, and to find peace spiritually and religiously? What would that be like for you? I teach folks to empower themselves. I provide one-on-one training, couples training, and group training.  For those folks who want to pursue the BDSM route of self-actualization through submission, to really experience those desires, I curate and guide them through an introspective journey. I provide guidance to people trying to discover themselves. These are the various options for the time I spend with people, for personal growth and spiritual development, through the lens of BDSM. I will empower you through experience and introspection. I will help you find the power of your voice. We will find a way to get your soul to the surface. We will remove blockages and build our own community. Let me help you. Healing through the lens of BDSM, the space we hold is sacred. The feelings and the emotions run deep. Upon reflection of the lives we live, we stand in a judgment-free zone in a space that is empowering in truth. That's what I get to create. That's what I create for you. My purpose in all of this has been to witness other people's experiences in life, to capture them in my memory and to use all this knowledge to help others find peace within themselves. With permission I photograph what I witness. I bring all of this experience to bear on how I help you, and in this way, you will contribute to help me to help others find themselves. Let's connect with all parts of yourself. Let's acknowledge the wide range of personality we all have. Karma Said:My (pen) name is Karma Said. I'm Master Joshua's sex slave, and a happily married (to another man) mother of two. I'm the author of "Surviving Master Joshua: The BDSM Memoir Of An Unfaithful Wife" (Carnal Culture, April 2022). When Joshua and I met, I was a staff reporter for a reputable conservative publication, and Joshua was research. But, following Him deeper and deeper into New York's sexual underground, I crossed the line between observer and participant, right and wrong. I started out in this lifestyle as a cheater... turning that around reshaped more than just our own lives. At its core, our story is one of an uplifting personal transformation; it also showcases the lifestyle of one of the most sensationalized and least understood factions in LGBTQA+.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      The Role Of The Dominant·      Healing Found In The Kink Community·      Validation Found Within The Kink Community·      Gaining Power Over Sex Addiction Through Kink·      Me Too Accusations  ·      Talking About Things That Really Matter·      BDSM & Religion ·      BDSM Definitions ·      The Importance Of Aftercare·      A Sweet Breakdown Of Harnesses  CONNECT WITH MASTER JOSHUA: Website: https://masterjoshua.com/Website: https://carnalculturepublishing.com/Book: https://survivingmasterjoshua.com MASTER JOSHUA'S RECOMMENDATIONS: SSDCE: https://ssdce.orgThe Kink Collective: https://kinkcollective.net  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Karma & Master Joshua[00:00:00]De'Vannon: You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.Joshua and his happily married to another man. Sex Slave Karma said are here to tell us their whole truth, and they're doing it with boldness and with zero shame. Y'all master Joshua is a professional dominant. , which is the male equivalent of a dominatrix, and also he's a non-traditional sexual behaviors consultant.Now, carer wrote a book called B D S M, memoir of an unfaithful Wife, and well [00:01:00] look, all I have to say is fucking wow.This conversation is deep and unadulterated in a way I've never done before.I mean, if you really wanna see something new, watch us on my YouTube channel because we take off our tops as I reveal to the world my special red and black harness for the first time. So if y'all wanna see these tits pop on over to the YouTube channel, baby.  Enjoy .Ooh, y'all. I've really, really, really, really, really been looking forward to this one here. Now, y'all all know me and my boyfriend have a, an open relationship, and we're new into the kingery and stuff like that. We're little baby virgins, and at least in that aspect all over again. But today I have with me on the sex drugs in Jesus podcast, a masterMaster Joshua: I'm blushing, [00:02:00]De'Vannon: a master. His name is Master Joshua. And Karma is it print property. Call you his slave, submissive, sex slave. Sex slave. And they have written a book called Surviving Master Joshua's, a memoir of an unfaithful Wife . And that's what we're gonna be talking about today. How are the two of you beautiful souls doing today?Master Joshua: Doing really well. Really excited to be on this morning. To, to talk about it. Being able to, to have Karma's story out there accessible is really exciting and important to me. Cuz she's worked really hard at it. She's dealt with me for four years to turn it out. . Karma: Yeah. It's a culmination of a big, big personal transformation and it's a, for me, it's a big personal victory to be able to talk about it cuz like the title says it's a V d s m memoir of an unfaithful wife.So that's where we start off from and it [00:03:00] ends with us being able to talk openly. And I still have my family so De'Vannon: You do. But it was, it was, it was a process and it's so interesting to see like how, you know, how you evolve in the story from. Somebody who's like, kind of timid about it all. It's by the end of the book.And you know, really the end of the book, you're like, you know, like, it's like there's like this cutting going on and stuff like that that we're gonna talk about, you know, later. And I guess it was fascinating to me that part three of this book is basically like one chapter. It's, it's like, it's like PO Box, I think it was like 1125 or, you know, something, something along those lines.And you know, the, you know, so that, that lets me know how important that that one section is. You know, that you separated it like that, you know, so, okay. I wanna get into y'all's very, very, very titillating like history [00:04:00] now. Now Master Joshua, I believe you've been doing this for at least like 20 years, I believe.No, I, Master Joshua: I I've been doing it professionally for about a decade. I actually have to sit down and do my timelines again cuz I've been saying a decade for a minute now. But I've been on my own personal journey. You know, there's levels to it cuz I can, I can remember a story I to I was told about when I was five and I would rub my aunt's nylons and they would, it would excite me as a five year old.Stimulating my body was a sexual in nature. No, it was all sensation and stimulation, right? I lost my virginity at 12. That's another major turning point in my life. I had my first child at 18, 19 having to deal with family court at 19. These are all different layers of my own identity and journey that, that all matter up until the point where I'm at today, you know, for all of us.But my purpose was [00:05:00] discovered about 10 years ago when I started doing this professionally. And by purpose, I mean people come to me for self-actualization and safety and submission. Being able to have someone hold space for them where they can be. Authentically themselves, you know, one piece at a time because you don't just jump out of the closet, right?It's like being deviant as some people call us, being perverted as some people call call us kinky fetishists. It's not easy because we're not the norm right now. The coolest part about it is that everybody wants something. It's just shame and fear and safety, right? People don't feel safe enough to be vulnerable, to be able to open those doors.My role is to be that safety for people to open the doors either in events that I produce or one-on-one sessions or intensives that we host. That's how I found power over sex addiction. And it was incredibly life changing to be able to [00:06:00] say no. Right? Just that simple word. No. And it really put the power back in my hand around who do I connect with and who do I not?De'Vannon: you say you've got the victory over sex addiction. At what point did you feel like you were a sex addict and why? Master Joshua: Oh, I mean, , I have four kids. I have four different w moms. I I would go outta my way in severe ways, detrimental ways to have sex. Right? It, it, I I had to, I was mandated to attend a program once, and while I was there, I was one of those guys sitting in the back like, why the fuck am I here?I'm not one of these guys. And, you know, for substance, I wasn't. Right. It was, it was a, an eye-opening experience though, cuz as I heard people's telling of the stories of their relationship with substances, that was my relationship with sex, the [00:07:00] things that they were ruining about their lives, the relationships that they were tanking financially, what they were doing, how irresponsible they were being.That was my relationship with sex. And that's how I know sex addiction is a thing. To get over it. It took a long time. I had a really intense relationship with sex. And I'm glad to be able to look back at it and say, this is what happened. And this is what was the turning point for me. De'Vannon: I was thinking about that earlier today about how addictions how we get carried away with desires.So be it drugs or the pursuit of money. People get addicted to their careers, people get addicted to their children, people get addicted to all sorts of things and but it's some sort of pleasure there that we tend to, to, to not be able to get enough of what I think that's [00:08:00] beautiful about what you're saying and a part of the reason why I.You know, take issue with a lot of like more anti elu addiction theories. Like, say the anonymous program says if you've been an addict, you can never stop being one. You can't ever do a drug again. So like, so somebody who's like an identified sex addict, you know, it's not gonna stop ever having sex.You're gonna find a way to get that shit together. Cause it is unrealistic to think just because you were once a sex addict, you're never gonna have sex again. You know? And I feel that. So I, I, I appreciate the fact that you've done that, and I commend you for that. But I feel like it's the same way with people who were once addicts and drug addicts.I don't feel like you always have to be one. I feel like you could learn girl, how to not do your crystal methyl cocaine every damn day, but just to deal with every now and then and still be fine. , Master Joshua: listen. No, listen. This is my theory around that. Right? If people were to handle their problem, They would be good.Right? But that's the hard part. This, the addiction is the easy way out of the problems. [00:09:00] The hard work is looking at the problems and it's okay that you resort to substance. It's okay that you fail sometimes. Just keep trying. Just get up and do the next right thing. It's, it's not easy, right? It sounds easy, but it's not.It's not. It's a simple solution. But by no stretch of the imagination, easy because it all starts with integrity. Right? And what we try to do, what I tried to do with this relationship and we'll, and we'll get into it, is I try to circumvent morals with ethics. Right? And you can't circumvent morals, right?Ethics are manmade rules around human relations and what it is to do good morals are like universal law, right? And the basis of this book is built off of our developed relationship connection into a deep relationship where. I have the perspective of I only need her permission. I only need her consent.Right. Ethically, morally, that's not the truth. [00:10:00] The truth is I needed to know all the ducks were in a row before opening that door, but I, I got selfish in it too because she provided me a safe space. And we'll get, we'll get into that cuz it's, we're human beings, right? And we make choices that aren't always the right thing.Well, sometimes they're the right thing for us, but they're not the right thing. De'Vannon: Well, we can talk about it now. It sounds like what you're referring to is that, that part of the book that I was reading where like karma, like maybe your husband gave you certain permissions, maybe you had, I think it read like you, you had loopholes and you used them, you know, quite severely.Is that what you're referencing right now? Having the liberty and taking it a bit too far? Karma: Well I'm glad the book leaves leaves that space where it's not quite clear where the fault is but as in the way I see it there, [00:11:00] the loopholes were big as in really ill-defined, and it was, it's, it's a fig leaf really, that my husband and I negotiated certain terms of, and it wasn't really a negotiation.We agreed on certain terms in which we can in which I could explore the topic of V D S M because I was interested in it, but he wasn't right. We should tell the people, , we should give them a little bit of background. Right. I went in as a reporter reporting on a story about religion in kink. Joshua and his partner, master Joshua and his partner were the people who let me in.I was writing about an event that took place in their venue. Once I went to that event and spoke to the people and witnessed what happened, it became clear to me that my interest goes beyond the professional in B D [00:12:00] S M. And shortly after it became clear to me that my interest in Joshua goes beyond the professional as well, but we were kind of entangled.It wasn't, the boundaries were very blurry. Is it personal? Is it professional? Is it about being a journalist? Is it about my interest in B D S M? Is it about my interest in him? It was all kind of like mixed in. And of course, I'm married in a traditional marriage plus kids, and I don't wanna risk that.So I am trying on, on the other front, on my husband's front to to be in a space where I'm not actually cheating. And, and it's kind of like okay, I am doing th so. I keep reaching agreements with him, and the agreements keep falling short of reality because in reality, I'm already in love with him.I fell in love with him very early on. So what was [00:13:00] happening was that it just wasn't an honest,it's very hard to be honest when you don't know what's happening and when you are in a vortex, right? But that vortex created a situation where I really wanted something and that something was not allowed within the framework of a traditional marriage. And I kept tweaking the framework, but not being honest about my intentions or about what I really want, because at the time I didn't know.I just, I was exploring, discovering, and I got that permission to explore and discover. But within, you know, nothing more than a kiss and. Less than a kiss with another man. And that kind of was hard to keep , right? De'Vannon: So, Master Joshua: so, so you don't, can I, can I throw in my half of [00:14:00] that e of the equation , right? No, because it's, it's like, it's, it's tough.I was going through when she met me, I was going through a breakup. It was at a dissolution of a dynamic, right? They're not really the same dynamics are power exchange relationships, where this case was a baby girl in the daddy dom this is master slave. There's dom sub, there's all types of power exchange relationships where the focal point is the energy, the power exchange differential.So I was going through a breakup, and this was around the Me Too movement when I first started. Now, the Me Too movement was very necessary, and the bad actors, everyone got called out. and over time we went from bad actors to bad people to bad relationships. And it got weaponized At a point I was subjected to a weaponized me to dissolution and [00:15:00] she came into the class that we were teaching the round table discussion around B D S M and religion, which believe it or not is, is they're, they're two peas of the same two peas in a pod.So dealing with that while still hosting events, while still trying to provide service to the community. Cuz when you're accused of something like that, no one wants to hear it from you. Right. Everyone. And I understand the believe the victim approach. I too, when as event as an event producer, I have to hold space for the victim.Right. And I believe what you're saying, what I am also responsible, especially in this lifestyle, which is heavily defined by integrity, is I have to ask the other party what happened. I have to because I need to hear the whole story to find out what's going on. Because it's our responsibility if we're gonna keep the community safe from all types of situations, right?We can't just pick and choose. Leadership [00:16:00] requires doing the hard work. So I had no platform still doing what I do because this is what I do. This is my, I found purpose in my journey through B D S M and holding space for folks to find safety and self-expression and to, to dive into their sexuality is important for me because there's liberty in that I was shut down and Karma was interested and curious about the lifestyle.So I gave her space and I gave her all my information, everything I could provide her information with, I would. And then she caught wind of the accusations. You wanna take it from there, ? Karma: Well you read the book so you know, , but what happened was I started exploring this world through Master Joshua, right.Attending a little bit more events being a little bit more involved on a personal level and getting a taste [00:17:00] which really kind of threw me off personally. It was such a shocking discovery. It, it really impacted me to, I, I read about it in fiction books, so I kind of assumed that this whole lifestyle was fiction, , cuz I never saw it in real life until I met him.And then the whole discovery of it was kind of like, it, it was just walking headlong into a train for me. And then, so I'm trusting him as a guide during this period, which is very brief. Just a matter of days or weeks. and very soon I come across one of the people I interviewed about the King and religion story told me, well it's a more interesting story to examine the impact of me too on the king scene.Take the accusation against Mr. J Master Joshua, for example. I'm like, whoa, whoa, hang on. What accusations against Master Joshua? And so he [00:18:00] sent me the link to the accusations which were on Fe Life, which is kind of like the Facebook Forsters mm-hmm. . And I began following up on them and my first step was to confront Joshua about them and then interview him and his then partner about them and.You read the book. So, you know, as I went along, I let go of that story first because he and his partner were not interested in the Me Too story coming out at that time because of, they've already been through a lot with it. They were tired, his partners specifically. But I let go of it because I couldn't find enough concrete evidence that would meet my that part is not in the book.So I'm telling you there are certain standards for my publication to run with a story that is, that involves a [00:19:00] me too story. You need a certain amount of sources. They need to be verifiable to a certain extent, and their, their testimony needs to be. About some concrete me, some concrete things. Now there's a lot of noise about a me too movement in the kink scene, but once you look at the complaints, the noise, the story changes because it's sort of like the story becomes not oh, they are bad people out there using kink as a, as a way to abuse people's consent.But the story becomes, there's a lot of confusion there about what consent means and how do you verify it, and when is somebody doing something wrong and when are they not? Because there were no clear parameters. So everybody who yelled abuser just, you know, okay, that person became an abuser and that's it.And there was no [00:20:00] recourse for them. That, that became my story. In the end. My, the story I wanted to write as a journalist, but I could not run with it as a journalist because I would be standing on the right, wrong side of history as a liberal and as a woman and as like nobody would publish it. And if they did publish it, I would get into a lot of backlash.So I ended up publishing that. It's not even a story because it, I ended up publishing that outlook in my book because as I was, it's not just my story, right? It's a part of history. It's a part of a movement in history and it's a part of history that impacted people I love very much. So I really wanted to do something with it as a journalist, and I couldn't, so I did something with it as an author.De'Vannon: You can't speak one way, you gotta find another way. I appreciate your thoroughness and, and I agree. You know, nothing [00:21:00] in this life you know, is really ever a hundred percent, you know, and it's somebody who has stood in front of a judge several times. I got like four felonies, you know I, I appreciate thorough research rather than jumping like to conclusions and things like that.So there's like literally no way every man who's ever been accused of abuse has done it. It's not possible. There has to be somebody lying somewhere, you know, or, and taking advantage of that movement. So Master Joshua: you know, one of, one of the, one of the great things about our relationship is the accountability that she holds me to.Right? And I've grown a lot and I've reflected a lot around my life, and I've, I've even come to admit the points. Where I was a horrible partner within those relationships. Not to the degrees that they made the accusations, but enough to know that I had a role in the love going from love to hate, right?So it's, and that's what these relationships bring out, [00:22:00] is she's held my feet to the fire because I have a role that I play. And it's like, if I'm falling short, she, she's gonna make sure that I'm aware of it. Karma: I'm gonna quote him on that when it comes my time to make sure that you're aware of it. , it's not easy.De'Vannon: Love it. It's beautiful. So I wanted to read a snippet from the book. Thank you. I may because it's, they're very fun. I actually have a lot of quotes that I pulled from there that I thought were just like, so fun. So y'all, karma had mentioned earlier, like she was a reporter and everything like that.Well, she had reached out to a friend Bec wanted to do this b s m religion story, like what she said. And and the response that Karma got from her friend included this here. She said and I quote she quickly lay out a feast for me heavy on the red meat. Seeks, seeks in diapers, clergy, men and kennels.Yeah, I'm thinking like dog kennels ca seeds, ca seeds [00:23:00] getting fucked up the ass with bottles of kosher wine in quote. I thought that You know, I'm thinking, why can't the Catholic church just admit that they do the same shit and be done with it?Master Joshua: No, I have a, I have a client who's been a priest for 40 years. Right. And it's like legit. It's everywhere. Everybody's got something. Everybody's got something. De'Vannon: And then another part. How Karma was saying she was timid and shy. You know, it's like the, the roles were, were flipped. You know, all the times you hear about the guy sneaking around with his porn and everything like that.In this case you were that person s smut, as you called it. You had these dirty little habits and stuff like that, and you were hiding him from your husband. And I thought, well, what a role reversal. And and speaking of fe life, you understood that you had to establish a profile to, you know, as you, if you're gonna be going down this road, and I'm gonna read how you felt about it at [00:24:00] first, so quote you said, but scrolling through the avatars on the list of attendees, an unsavory collage of inch by inch asses, tits, cunts, cocks, and combinations thereof, unease swept over me in quote.I thought that was so beautifully written. . , thank Master Joshua: you. Karma: Thank you. Master Joshua: I De'Vannon: appreciate that and it's very, very powerful that you, that we're so transparent about going from like being uneasy about it to all immersed in it. And a big thing about, even as I, myself and my partner trying to approach, you know, the B D S M community, I think it's super important to to ease into it.You know? Cause in the book you talk about how it's very complex, there's a lot of layers to it. You started off as an observer, then you transitioned, you know, into participating, you know, as you got comfortable with it. And I think that that's an important thing to point out. So Master Joshua, you're technically speaking [00:25:00] professional, dominant.And then a non-traditional sexual behaviors consultant are the two titles I found when I was Master Joshua: researching. Yeah. Yeah. So essentially I do professional domination and N T S B counseling is B D S M without B D S M, right? Non-traditional sexual behavior. It's for those who are afraid to call it B D S M, but they're into something that isn't so intense, right?It all falls into the big umbrella that B D S M is, right? Fetish and kink. The desire for something we're afraid to speak of, right? So I make myself accessible. I make this journey accessible in both perspectives, right? For someone who isn't ready to say that they're that far into it in B D S M or leather or kink, we can call it non-traditional sexual behavior.Hey, it is what it De'Vannon: is. now. Yeah. Now I'm gonna read a portion of. [00:26:00] Of of, of, from my research of, of you master Joshua. This is not specifically from the book, so, but that you stated that when you first started, you say, when I first started practicing B D S M and Earnest, I assumed that what interested me in kink was, well, the kink, you say the thrill, the rush I got from dominating other person made the Y seem pretty self-explanatory.You go on to say, I used to play a lot of play at a lot of parties in the beginning before Scene, my bottom and I would talk, these talks were often uniquely candid. We were heading into a heightened situation and people wanted to let go of their masks, show me what was really going on inside. And you go on to say that by the end of.It was people's trust, you desire their permission to connect on a deeper, truer level. Kink was just the way in. Now, I've never heard B D S M describe like that before because when it's presented, a lot of times all we see is the [00:27:00] kink. Speak to me about how it's not really about the kink so much. Master Joshua: So this, and this is gonna go back to my relationship with sex.I enjoy kink, I enjoy the intensity, the director energy of it, being able to, and because domination looks at 20 different ways, right? The way I enjoy it is like Rocco sire, if you watch porn, , right? I really enjoy being a monster sexually. I also bought 'em, right? I'm also a sex submissive too, right?I enjoy intense things. I enjoy being fisted, right? I enjoy licking shoes, so it's a very visceral. Raw primal energy exchange for me. Now in order to access that, and this is where the title Sex Slave comes in what Karma's given me is freedom to be who I want to be within the four walls of our intimacy.[00:28:00] And that looks whichever way I want it to block because she's given me the permission by calling me master and me calling her my slave. There's a freedom, there's a weightlessness of being able to express yourself sexually, that you can't compare it to anything else. So knowing that that's earned through trust, right?That the, when I connect with people, I have a level of, of emotion and safety I want to feel. And if you don't hit that bar, we're probably not gonna be hanging out. And all that's earned through trust. And that's, that's how I want to live my life, is surrounded by people who I can not have to wear as many masks as, as we often have to.Hmm. And then, I mean, once you have that freedom, that permission, dude, you can do whatever you want, man. Let's go. Let's play, let's be nasty. Let's do what you want. I'm [00:29:00] game. Right, because there's no judgment. I love how it's beautiful. De'Vannon: I love how relationship based it is. I do. Because you know when a lot of people think about sex, you know, so, so many times, you know, our mind defaults to like maybe apps or like quick hookups and things like that.And it seems like the way that this is set up is getting away from like more superficial connections.Do you feel like, you know, this community provide. As we might say, chosen family. You know, maybe somebody's been rejected by their biological family. Can people find their way into the B D S M community and find the new community that accepts them or others have rejected them? Master Joshua: I think that's a false hope.I think what people find in community is validation and affirmation that you're not alone. What I don't find in community more often than that is growth [00:30:00] beyond the validation, right? Once you hit that bar of what community is, and that's set by the lowest common denominator. Now I say that because I put a lot of time into community and there's not a lot of return that community gives back because a lot of people in community are there to take their validation and affirmation and experiences and not really contribute.So that's a lot of energy being put out. This comes to connection right now through the years of doing professional domination. I've spoken to and hosting events. I've spoken to thousands of people. I've done thousands of sessions. I've played thousands of times. I actually complained about my joints now because my shit's hurt, man, , like my arthritis is kicking.I got tennis elbow and stuff, and people laugh, but that shit for real, right? Because I can't do it forever. What I learned in that time is how to connect with people, how to hear what people are saying, and keeping my mouth shut and processing. Right now, while we're all different, we're all very much the [00:31:00] same, right?We fall into like six categories of people and we just have variables to each of us. What we're all looking for is connection and validation, right? Being seen and being heard. What we need, if we're going to find that piece, is to be put into positions where we're questioned about our beliefs. We're questioned about our journey and our directions, and that requires growth because you gotta be put in uncomfortable situations.That's the type of community I'm trying to build, where we. Know who we are. We know who we are not. Right? We we're trying to unlearn what society's taught us and we're trying to dig into finding out who we are because no one taught us how to do any of this stuff. No one taught us how to have relationships.No one taught us how to have sex. No one taught, taught us how to communicate , right? It's simple. Communication is all boils down to communication. All I do is hold space for people and ask questions that have you reflect. And cuz you [00:32:00] know all the answers, I'm not, no one can teach you anything. All we can teach you, all we can help you do is ask you the questions that you can answer for yourself, right?And transitioning from B D S M as a community, more towards human responsibility, right? As a community is where we're going. And I've learned all of that through my own journey, through my relationships, through our relationships. Of the importance of integrity and trying to be as judgment free as possible.Trying to always do, try, remember, try cuz we're not superhuman. Trying to always just do the next right thing. Because if you do that in your relationships, you'll see all of this is a achievable. You can achieve anything if you're open and honest. Cuz what you're doing there is you're, you're gauging your safety.You're ga gauging if you're being seen and heard. [00:33:00] And if you don't have that, why would you put your guard down? Right? So you gotta really reevaluate these things. I hope I didn't go off too far off topic, and how, De'Vannon: I mean, know how intelligent is all smart. It's like mindful, mindful sexual behaviors rather than just reacting to the fact that you're horny.You know, I think it's a smart way to do, you know, who is this person and do we have a connection? I think it's brilliant. I think it's bloody brilliant. Master Joshua: You can also do it on, on like a, a hookup, right? Because I, I've taught a few classes at Claw. Claw is Cleveland Leather Annual Weekend. They teach it, it's, it's held in Cleveland every April.And it's the, in my opinion, the best large format education convention out there, especially for men particularly gay men interested in leather culture. And I've taught about hookup culture and how it deteriorates our connection, right? Because it's more like playing jackpots. You, you, every time you hit that hookup, you get [00:34:00] that rush of endorphins and Oh my God, you're gonna go hookup and then you're gone and you're depleted again and it's empty.So you go back on there and you're trying to hit that hook up again. And it's, it's a cycle, right? And all you have to do is, it's not really all you have to do, cuz it's not, it's, it's work. It, it takes pr, it takes work is you have to. Be okay with not being who you want thought you were and doing some, find a mentor, find someone who's at where you want to be, and develop a, a friendship.Friendship, meaning have conversation without intention. Right? Meet people without thinking, what can I get from them? And just hold space. Hold space. Ah, holding space, meaning giving undivided attention and not judging. When you do that, and this can be with anyone, [00:35:00] right? If you do that without the intention, you'll hear yourself reflected back in many different ways, in ways beyond you can even comprehend.Now, imagine doing that in an arena where you are looking to meet someone because you have similar. Interest. Right? It doesn't just have to be at a bar or a club, but let's say you're into pottery, right? Or you're doing some Groupon Eatery event, or you go do movie, movie screenings, right? And you sit and you just have conversations about things that interest you hold space and listen for people, and you'll see how easy it is to hear yourself in things that matter from the other person.Not about sports, not about the movies, and not about TV shows, but about shit that matters, right? You open those doors and while they're scary, you'll see how much return you get back on that stuff. Mm-hmm. , you better De'Vannon: preach. And, and, and by the way, I wanna say I love the nails. You talk with your hands a lot, so I [00:36:00] think it's beautiful that you have those all dead up.So you mentioned earlier that you feel like B D S M and religion are two peas in the same pod. Break that down for me please. Master Joshua: So I define spirituality as how I treat myself through my belief system. My belief system is karma, right? I, what I put out is what I get back, meaning I drink alcohol. I know I shouldn't because it's bad for my body, right?The right thing to do is to not drink alcohol, right? I smoke marijuana. It has medicinal purposes, but it still puts tar in the lungs. I know that, right? Who am I kidding? It's not the right thing to do unless there's di cer certain circumstances, but I do it recreationally, right? There's lack of integrity in how I'm treating my body, and I'm aware of it, right?That spirituality, how I treat myself under my belief system. Religion, as I define it, is how I treat others through my belief system right now, karma, right? If I treat you like an asshole, you'll probably treat me like [00:37:00] an asshole back, right? If I do something nice for you, maybe you'll do ni something nice for me.Without in expectations, right? Intentions without expectations. Now, B D S M, and at this point, all the reli, reli, all the relationships I develop are built off of my belief system that B D S M works as a way to build deep and meaningful relationships, open and honest communication, transparency, integrity, doing the hard stuff that isn't fun, right?Having the hard conversations that aren't fun. That's my belief system. If I approach this with integrity, it's going to come back with integrity. And if I don't feel it, it's not meant to be, but we're not dealing with that level of integrity at this point, that petty shit, right? But you have to unlearn a lot of that stuff because what does it mean to feel safe, right?So how I associate the two is [00:38:00] people choose what religion they put in there. Ju Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Catholicism. Right? That's your belief system. Now the difference between talking, the talking, walking the walk is another big thing, right? Because you can say you're of any of these religions, I can say I practice B D S M, but it doesn't mean I practice that shit safely or correctly.Right? Who's not saying, I'm not using my knowledge to manipulate the situations. Wow. That kind of sounds like religion. , right? because that's it. It's all about human relations. That's all life is about, is human connections. Hmm. What did that was the first time I said that shit like that. Wow. I gotta have to play that shit back.Hopefully De'Vannon: you're on the podcast . What a deep thinker you are. Master Joshua. Yeah. Things come out of us when we need it to. Master Joshua: I found my connection to God through this journey. I mean, it's faith, right? The faith that if I continue doing the right thing, it'll come [00:39:00] back. Mm-hmm. the faith of. . When I need something, it'll be provided.This, the faith of, they won't disappoint me because I won't disappoint them. Right. It's like we've invested a lot of time and energy into building this. And it's not a house of cards. This shit's built out of steel and brick . Oh, that's right. I'm all hyped up, man. Karma: Finally, somebody wants to hear about religion.Master Joshua: It's crazy cuz I, I would've never seen myself here. I'm one of those guys. I was, I'm Latino, right? I grew up in New York, east Harlem. I pushed religion aside at an early age because you couldn't prove it to me. You can't prove it to me. What, how, what are you gonna prove to me? Nothing. What I learned it through was consistency in the return of doing the right thing and that that.Now, I've touched the iron many times, , right? But the point is, am I changing my behavior after I touched the iron, right? We can't just repent on Sunday and say we're all [00:40:00] forgiven. That shit doesn't work like that. We're just, that's a joke, right? Can I give you one philosophy? One theory. One theory. Just one theory.East Easter Sunday, I was coming out of the train and this guy goes, Jesus died for your sins. I'm like, Jesus did not die for my sins. I don't know Jesus. Jesus doesn't know me when they say he died for your sins. I said, maybe. Maybe he died for the sins of inaction, right? Of all the people that watched him, he get crucified for doing the right thing and they fell to do the right thing and that's why he died for their sins of inaction.So maybe the lesson to take away from that shit is if you see something wrong, do the right thing. Karma: Theta says it all the time. , you see something, say something. Master Joshua: Okay. Ah, sorry. I'm gonna drink my water now. . De'Vannon: No, you are so good, man. Like I love, I love me a good deep thinker, you know? And wouldn't I agree with everything that someone is saying?What I, what I always agree with is the passion and the conviction, [00:41:00] you know, behind it. And I can tell you believe every word that's coming outta your mouth. And I know that that translates to your, to your submissive and your slaves and everything like that, you know, confidence. That's something I love in a man.You know, it'll make you follow 'em to the end of the earth. Oh yeah. . Karma: Yeah, Uhhuh. You get it. You know how it works. De'Vannon: You know, so Carmen, so, so something that I read that you wrote in, in one of your profiles, probably on matchmaker, maybe on one of the websites, was that this lifestyle, referring to bds, the B D S M lifestyle is one of the most sensationalized and least understood factions of the L G B T Q I two s plus community.Right. I wanted to dwell on this for a moment, because I know when a lot of people think bd s m, they don't necessarily place that in the plus of the L G BT Qia A so, and I don't, to my knowledge, I mean, [00:42:00] are most people who practice BD s m in our community, is it sometimes separate? Is it always together?Help me understand. Karma: I'm gonna give you my, this is master Joshua's question, but that's his answer. No, no, go ahead. But I'm gonna give you my outlook. P D S M was something I was interested in, but once I began exploring it and living it as some, as, as a submissive, as a slave, it's not a, well, I, this is just how I enjoy fucking, it's not just, this is, it's an inherent part.It's, it's a identity, it's a sexual identity, and it's a personal identity, and it's a setup of how I would like to interact with people on, it has parts of it that are integral to who I am. [00:43:00] It should not be viewed as a I say it's as much of a, an identity as transgender. Transgender is, or gay is, or lesbian ins.It is not a game. It's a peoplehood in a way. . And for me, and, and it, it has very concrete aspects, right? Because for example, if I try to to advertise my book on Amazon so people could see it, so it would get some, you know, just because I exist and I want people to know about the book I wrote obviously.So if I wanna advertise on Amazon, I can't because the word B D S M is not they do not advertise anything that has B D S M in the title because B D S M is a perversion, a sexual thing, [00:44:00] a and they don't run with that, right? But transgender is okay, you transgender has its own category and is promoted as such.And in a way it comes to, I have a truth about myself that I cannot speak. Because V D S M is not acceptable as other sexual identities are. Right? I can't, I can't be who I am openly. I have to, I can't talk about this almost anywhere, right? I am, I'm poly, right? I, I have a husband and a master and I can't talk about that anywhere.And I am kinky, right? I, I, I like sex to involve certain things that other people do not like. And I can't talk about that. And both of these things are huge parts of who I am and what I do with my life, but I don't have any permission to approach it as such. However, there is a [00:45:00] community, and there is, and there are people who do this as, as a lifestyle and as an expression of self, an expression of identity.So in my eyes, it is just a matter of time until B D S M or the leather community or however it ends up calling itself or unifying itself, will become part of that umbrella of the L G B T Q A and it will be the plus, right? It's it somewhere in that plus is our place in humanity. And that's why I identified the book as such, because it really is, if you look at the larger picture of things at history, at what's happening, that's the purpose of my book, to show people that this is, this is an identity and a legit one, and it belongs into a group of people and this is the group it belongs to.De'Vannon: Yeah. That and [00:46:00] master Joshua, was there anything you wanted to add to that? Master Joshua: Yeah, because , I, I have the like the technical stuff, so while. And it's evolved a lot over the last X amount of years. It's, it was hugely segregated between gay pansexual and pansexual is more heteronormative and the queer community you had smaller subsets within those, with the times everyone's evolved.Mostly everyone's evolved to where everyone's promoting inclusivity, but the vibe still changes with every event that you go to. The, what we're trying to do within that event space and what people come to us for is a level of equality where people are just, again, people are just people. We have the, the name of the intensive that we host [00:47:00] is called People Before Kink. And it's like, it's all about getting to know the person next to you because I.I have a personal agenda around B D S M and getting it to fall under the Civil rights protection. Right. To be identified as an identity because I, we're not, we're born this way. Right? We have these desires, these relationship developments. Like I identify as a leather sexual because I need to get to know you and once I get to know you, I'll determine if I like you or not.It has nothing to do with what's between your legs. Nothing to do with what's between your legs. Nothing to do with how you identify. I don't care. Anything else other than are you a good person? And if I can vibe with you, I probably wanna fuck . Right? But it's like, don't put on a mask. Don't lie to me.Right. I [00:48:00] have no agenda with I I have, I, I just wanna, I just wanna witness your existence. Tell me about yourself. And just on that alone will tell me which way we're gonna go. Right. And I, I found that shit out in 2019 at, at Palm Springs pride March. I was standing in the back of the chute. Did I tell you this story?Mm-hmm. and everyone's waving their flags. And I'm tight, right? Because my relationship with my orientation has always been up in the air. I, like, I've, I, I don't identify as straight, I don't identify as gay. I, I'm, I fell somewhere in bi pansexual, like, eh, but it always fell short and everyone's waving their flags and I'm like, but does the genitalia really fucking determine, does this really determine like, what determines for me?And I said, well, I've been doing this process for years now and this is what matters to me, determines whether I wanna hook up with you or not. Cuz I've met enough people where they, once they opened their mouth, I was like, that's a done deal. I just spent all this time meeting them, talking to them, and then I've then fucking [00:49:00] box of rocks.Like I have no interest in them. . So I changed the way I approach to this lifestyle, and this is how we develop relationships. Once you have the taste for being seen and heard, you are not gonna settle for nothing else. If, if you do your sac, your sacra, if you're doing yourself, you're doing yourself harm.Right? By not doing what it, just being seen and heard, right. And learning the value of the roles that we play. So it's like,I believe it's that ingrained into us. It's about once you, we realize that it's about the connection we're making, that is our lifestyle.De'Vannon: I look forward to your book coming out. Master JoshuaMaster Joshua: Yeah, no, we're I'm working on it cuz. Something that just came to mind. I was visiting a, a [00:50:00] mistress friend of mine out in Pennsylvania and she's been doing it as long as I have and it was such an amazing connection to meet someone who is on the same page of, cuz once you've been doing this shit for so long, you've been wearing your mask for too long, your teacher hat.And we've gotten to the point where we've taken it off and it's like, we need to continue our own personal journeys. Dom domination aside, what does that mean? Now we got to share that space and vulnerability with each other was incredible. We also got to share perspectives of what are we doing with this knowledge And what I'm walking away, what I walked away with is creating a power exchange economy where just like our people before kink intensives and our other personal development intensives the idea behind.And all of it is how do we help you find your version of what you're looking for? How do we help you tap into your dominance? How do we help you tap into your submission and what does it look like and what does [00:51:00] structure look like? And all that's gonna be built and taught off of philosophy, safety, and techniques.Right now the book is gonna come out based off of that too, cuz there's a lot to say about this. That I believe bd, s m could be a form of therapy now, not only therapeutic as in the spanking and the relief that a person can get, but therapy with the understanding that the professional dominant understands the responsibility of the space that you hold.The person is coming into you, you're giving them, again, the undivided attention and you're judgment free and you're reflecting back to them that they're okay and that they're not broken. We also have the ability to connect with them on the, on the level of giving our own examples and life experiences that a lot of mental health professionals can't.They have to keep that wall up. So imagine you're sitting with someone who you just told you deepest, darkest secrets and they didn't even bat an eye. And then they said, you know what? I understand. I had an experience like that one time with broom. And then they just lay it out and you're like, holy fuck, I'm [00:52:00] not broken.I'm not wrong. What they've told me for the last 20 years was a lie. , right? Now that I'm talking about that level of therapy and healing, and then you walk into the therapeutic stuff. But we as the professionals have to understand the role that we play in all of it. You can't just say, listen, this is what I'm doing.And the only way you can do that is by doing the fucking work yourself. You have to go and you have to walk and you have to open the closets and you have to look in and you have to cry, and you have to have imposter syndrome e every other month, right? You gotta do all the ugly shit so that you can say the P, the point of suffering is on the other side of all that suffering.You can say, you know what? I see you coming. Keep coming because you can survive. I did it. Just keep going. Right? You can provide that space. Dude, that's all we're doing. That's all we're doing. So that's why I think it's a form of therapy. Well, De'Vannon: after that af after that sermon right there, I think it's about time [00:53:00] I take off my top for you,Master Joshua: I like it. I like it. So now we're all at home. Can I, can I turn on, can I, can I take off my shirt? Whatever it is you wanna do. . De'Vannon: So, sorry, I'm keeping in Karma: mind . De'Vannon: So this is the introductory piece of leather, one of the two, me and my boyfriend got when we started to experiment. And so I wanted to read a couple of chapter titles during this part cause I thought that they were so fun.And you have masochism, knives, rope negotiation, the dungeon , you know, that was my Karma: life at the time. That is my life. That is my life at the time now.De'Vannon: And so I wanted to just read a few definitions. So we were talking, you were talking about how like your bottom and everything like that, and I love your [00:54:00] tattoos and the harness and everything. All very thoughtful and thought out. It was very intriguing to me to find some of the you know, like top and bottom and everything like that, those terms, you know, in the B D S M community.Look, as far as I'm concerned, everyone's welcome. B D S M. Come on and play with us too. You know, as you mentioned in the book, you know, karma, you mentioned, you know, it was like, it's like coming out of the closet, you know, even, you know, like for you and I'm, and I was like, okay. You know, I don't know that I've ever, you know, con stepped to that deep into the BDSM world to realize that people who really like, you know, that sort of lifestyle have have all these barriers too and all this judgment and so, As far as I'm concerned, come on and play with us.I'm so happy that you go to Pride, you know, master Joshua and everything like that. I think it's so inclusive and I, I feel like, like your book, karma is really, really, you know, for people who are in that situation where you were, you know, in a relationship feeling like [00:55:00] something's missing. They don't know what in, you know, how the hell were you gonna tell your husband?And we're gonna talk about that after I go over these Definition, Sarah. So I just wanna read them. So top you say in the context of B D S M A top is a term given to the individual who assumes the controlling or dominant role over a submissive participant or bottom. I get the sense that it doesn't matter if it's male, female, other, it is just like whoever.And I think that that's more comprehensive than how it is. You know, like in the gay community, seeing the definition of seeing is A B D S M scene is a pre-planned space where BD B D S M activities take place. It is als it al it, it, it also includes the participation of B D S M related activities like we were saying earlier.There's a lot of work and planning that goes into this sort of thing. Now, what interested me the most, so, and what I want y'all to talk about is the after. Now, this is particularly interesting to me. It says in B D [00:56:00] S M aftercare is the period of time after a scene in which partners attend to one another's physical, emotional, and psychological needs.Typically, the dominant partner in the scene will be the one caring for the submissive partner or partners. B D S M scenes are often very intense and can often be emotionally and psychologically draining. Physical injuries are also not uncommon during these scenes. Tell me about this aftercare and why it's needed, honey.Karma: Well, first we should source them. This came from kingley.com. The definitions are from kingley.com. And I was learning them as I was going. So for me, how. There was a discussion, how should I put them as, should it be in glossary? Should it be at the end of the book? But I put them as I learned them, right?I would go after, each time I met Joshua, I'm online. I'm doing my research. I'm like, what the fuck happened to me right now? Let me see. And, and that's [00:57:00] and that's how all these things were, were pulled. Now of course he is the professionals, so he is the one who should be talking about what these things are and how you properly employ them.But in the place, in the book that you came about, the place where aftercare was mentioned, it was in the context of a party, right? Master Joshua was playing with another man. And, and it was a very intense scene. It involved breath play. and the person at the other end of it, he was, he was barely standing when we were done.He was not standing when we were done. He was, he was. When they were done master Joshua took him off the restraints and the person just kind of collapsed in, into his arms. And it master Joshua you don't see it here, but he has a pretty smallish frame. And the person [00:58:00] was much bigger than him. And when that person fell into his arms, they both had to sit down cuz master cuz he couldn't hold him.And what happened was he kind of master Joshua, kind of propped him up in his arms and, and put his held his head in his lap and kind of just caressed his head for, and just held his hands and caressed him. And it looked very, it was very tender and very peaceful and not at all something that I.Ever thought of in the context of bdsm. And I think that while the whole party, you know, the whole thing was exciting and mesmerizing, I think that was the moment where I kind of like fell in love both with the lifestyle and probably was Joshua because it was so just tender and, and naked. Like the, it's, it, it had a, a, a gravity [00:59:00] to it of like holding a baby or, or a tenderness, just there was so much warmth and, and empathy in it that it felt like the height of, of, of what a human relationship could be.Right. And there was, so, there was such a sweetness to it, right? The, the other person has surrendered, the conqueror has taken what he, it wasn't clear who was taken and who was given anymore, but there was just a, a comfort there. He was comforting him. . And I was like, how does that work? That person just beat the other person till he was senseless and now he's, he's holding him and he's comforting him.Like, like that big man is, is like a child, like a baby. And it was incredibly sweet. And later I researched it and came up with, what is that? Why, why did that happen? What, what is that about? And so I came across aftercare and I'm like, oh, there's a term for it. Okay, great. And that's the term [01:00:00] I included in my book, but really it's seeing it and, and that that's what got me hooked.I would say more than, more than all the rest because it's so De'Vannon: beautiful. Interesting. So since we're wearing these harnesses, what is it, you know, how, how, how are these used? In the, you know, in, in the community and, you know, why is the leather such a draw? But I see these harnesses everywhere in all the gay bars, you know, everywhere I go.What's the big deal with the harnesses? People want to know. Master Joshua: I think, I think now it's just a symbol, right? I, I think, I think it's a fashion statement is mainstream, which is cool. I'm thankful for it because it allows it to be more okay to go out in public like it granted I have a lot more leather than, than, than a piece or two, but being able to normalize bd, s m like 50 shades good, bad or, or different?It, it put B D S M [01:01:00] into the spotlight. Yes. As time has progressed, and we have other artists who have come forward with harnesses and other le leather outfits. I mean, there's designers out there that rock leather 24 7. I think it gets lost in the fashion that sometimes you can use these to fuck Right.And use those. You see the bar across your chest, you have a similar one on the back. Yeah. Right. And they're made outta leather cuz leather is very durable. Right. So imagine being off on all fours and using the harness as straps. As handles. Okay. You can also, you can also lead around on the leash. Kinda like a range.Karma: Yeah. right Master Joshua: On a horse. Nah. And yeah, you're not going anywhere cuz those are built to holdDe'Vannon: Yes. . Master Joshua: I mean they look cool too. Right. But like, the one I haven't like here in the back, my,[01:02:00] it's, it's it's meant to , it's meant to hold, to be Karma: sturdy. That was the first time I actually got to grab the shotgun . De'Vannon: I'm so happy. Oh, that's how it's . I'm so happy that was a part of your first time experience. . Master Joshua: Look at that. Four years later, five years later, we still happen. Seriously, . Yeah. Put a strap on.De'Vannon: So then the last thing I wanna talk about, and I thank y'all so much for your time today. I appreciate it immensely. Time is one resource that we cannot get back or create anymore. So I appreciate that when people sit down to give of their time, to me it means everything. And I humbly am thankful for it and I humbly accept it.So in that, in that last cha, you know, chapter in the book, you know, you were really, really giving a lot of like heavy emotion. You know, you were talking about how the burden of this, I guess you could say, like [01:03:00] maybe the secret life or the life you wanted to live, you know, was getting to you, you were like, I so unhappy.and then you've got an exacto knife, and then you begin to cut yourself. And you showed these, these cut wounds to master Joshua. And without really saying much, you know, he, he did. You know, he, he affirmed that he was going to take on this problem for you and then his solution was to Cru was to make you his submissive and to be enslave them for you to become, for him to become your master.You know, in the book you talk about how you were so, like relieved that you've gotten down and kissed his feet and gratitude. So, because I felt like this book is really, really written for people in like similar situations, whether they may find themselves in those situations today or in the future, I really want you to talk about just how unhappy you [01:04:00] were that it brought you to the point of self-mutilation and how what he offered you.Seemed to be like instant relief for you. Karma: WellI was cheating on my husband and I was living a lie. AndI, Joshua and I were too deeply involved. For me to walk away from it, walking away from it was just, it, it felt too much like walking away from my own story. Right. I was, I was invested in it. I wanted it, I did not wanna walk away from it. And every time I walked away from it, it just resulted in me coming back because this was, this is my story, this is what I'm going through.It's not. At some point, I stopped viewing it as a mistake and started viewing it [01:05:00] as my own personal odyssey. I cannot walk away. Uh, It's just like a hero walking away from his movie. You can, there's always a point where he wants to, there's always a point where he tries to, but , he's in the movie, so he stays and he sees the, the, the adventure through.So I couldn't walk away from that. But I also did not have the, the courage to step up to my husband and tell him, this is what I'm going to, because I see I'm, I was, I came from a, I didn't know much about this world going in. And for me, to me, the fact that Joshua has other partners, other women meant that he's not all in there for me, right?He has other women. It's not, I'm probably not that important. So how can I risk my whole family life? . You know, there, there was always that thought of like, you know, if I, if I, if I fail [01:06:00] and, and my husband leaves me, and like if I tell him the truth and it ends up in a divorce mm-hmm. , how am I gonna, will Joshua be there for me?Will there be anything left? Like well Joshua be there for me, you know, tomorrow. like, cuz I don't, it wasn't really clear how much, how, how deep his commitment was. Because coming from a monogamous world, how do you judge commitment? You judge it by you're my only one, right? That's not true. In this case you judge it by I love you more than anybody.It's not true in this case. I, you judge it by I'll give you all. My time, I'll give you it. It just doesn't work that way when you're in a, in, in other kinds of [01:07:00] partnerships. And that made me very wary of him. Plus again, he, he was going through a lot of difficult, his world was forming at that time.He was going through a lot of d

INTRODUCTION: David Hernandez is the founder of Body By Purpose, creator of the Elite Champion Fitness Academy and host of the podcast, Listen, You're Not Defeated.  He is passionate, inspiring, andmotivated. He believes that each of us was designed to live a life of purpose. He believes in one core component in everything he teaches... providing VALUE. So that men and women can learn the principles needed to achieve a healthy, fit and fulfilling life. His life's mission is to empower OVER 1MILLION people to live a better life, healthy, fit and free! After losing hischildhood best friend to obesity at the age of 21, David promised himself thatno one he loved or cared about was ever going to die of obesity if he couldhelp it.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Super Sickening Health Advice·      Male Self Esteem Issues·      Obesity Concerns·      Emotional Eating·      Our Relationship With Food·      Fitness Industry Tea·      Lagging Indication Of Lab Tests·      The Benefits Of Weight Loss·      The Stress Of Weight On Internal Organs·      The Mental Effect On Exercise  CONNECT WITH DAVID: Website: http://www.DavidHernandez.coWebsite: http://www.EmotionalEatingSupport.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3k6mW3tFacebook: www.facebook.com/davekhernandezTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/davekhernandezInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/davekhernandezLinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davekhernandez/  DIETICIAN RECOMMENDED INFO: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/weight-management/adult-overweight-obesity/health-riskshttps://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects/index.html CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:   https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: David Hernandez[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Good morning everybody, and welcome to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. So glad to have you with me today. David Hernandez is the founder of Body by Purpose, creator of the Elite Champion Fitness Academy and host of the podcast. Listen, you're not defeated. Join David and I today as we get deep and heavy about obesity, our relationship with food, mental health, self-esteem, and so much more.David [00:01:00] lost a friend to obesity and had a near death experience himself,and so this episode is quite emotional.Please listen and share. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I love having all of you. I love having sex with all of you. I love doing drugs with all of you, and I love talking about Jesus with all of you. David, how are you? David: I'm doing fantastic. My man's doing, doing a, a great morning here and excited to be here with you.Thanks for having me. De'Vannon: Hells fuck yeah. So y'all, David Hernandez is in Florida. He's the founder of Body By Purpose. He's gonna tell you what that is in just a moment. He's the creator of the Elite Champion Fitness Academy. He's gonna tell you what that is in just a moment. He's a certified personal trainer, a certified nutrition specialist, the member of the International Sports and Science [00:02:00]Association.He's gonna tell me what that is in a moment, cause I'm most curious about it. He's the host of. Of of the podcast called Listen, you're Not Defeated, and he's gonna give us some tea about that too. So I'll walk you, I'll walk you through everything that you gotta tell us. So first, what is Body by Purpose?David: Yeah. Awesome. And look, I believe our body was designed with the specific purpose, and each one of our purposes are unique. And if our body isn't aligned to our purpose, to our desire, to our lifestyle, to the things that we desire to achieve and do in life, well, we may fall short of that because our body is the instrument that takes us there.right? It's what makes us travel to that destination in life. And so I believe that when we align our body to that purpose, we can truly become unstoppable and ultimately able to achieve whatever we desire to achieve. So that was critical with me. I was, I was kind of thinking about what name do I wanna [00:03:00] give?Because I believe that health is bigger than us, right? And if we can include purpose in all that we do, well, then we can make our body achieve that as well. De'Vannon: So is this like a nonprofit? Is it, you know, like your fitness organization? What is it? David: Yeah, it's my company where I run all of my fitness through.But primarily it's also A, a kind of like a, like a motto that I, that I want people to adopt in their own life, so to speak, because it's a message, right? And I think that when we put a message or a meaning to everything that we do, then we can enhance the value of what we're doing. And I believe that our body is a critical tool.It's an instrument that oftentimes we ignore. We're now starting to talk a lot about, a lot about the mind, and we talk a lot about our emotions and we talk a lot about many things, and the body's also talked about, [00:04:00] however, I believe the body is not presented in the correct. I believed oftentimes when we look at the media, when we look at how we should look, there's a specific stigma.There's a specific style. Right now we're getting back into the really, really skinny look, and oftentimes if the look or the body, again, isn't specifically aligned to your purpose, then it doesn't matter what body you have, it's gonna ultimately keep us from achieving our ultimate desires in.De'Vannon: Okay. All right, cool.So what is the Elite Champion Fitness Academy? David: That's the academy that I put together where I utilize to train all my students. So instead of me telling you what to do, I believe in educating you to take control of your own health. So it's a platform that I have. All of the years that I've been in fitness, 15 plus [00:05:00] years, all of the education that I've acquired, I've condensed it to a very specific core component system, so to speak.And in that academy, I put all of the principles that I believe are necessary for one to achieve the ultimate health that they desire in one place. And so that's basically my coaching platform that I put together, and it's what I utilize with all of my students. De'Vannon: Fabulous. Now, what is the International Sports and Science Association?David: That's where I got my certification from. It's a certification education company or a certification company where you can get your nutrition certification, your personal trainer, asso certification and all things related to health basically. De'Vannon: All right. Now they had me atk. I was like, okay,So the podcast, listen, you're not defeated. What is its premise? David: The premise is really to tell [00:06:00] people that doesn't matter what situation that you're in, you're really not defeated. And oftentimes as humans, we have one area or a few areas where we might feel defeated in, and that might be nutrition, that might be in health.I can't release weight. That might be in mindset. I don't know how to take control of certain negative thoughts to get me there. So it's a lifestyle show where we basically cover many areas to ultimately help you live a not defeated life. De'Vannon: Now, when I was researching that on your website it's the verbiage kind of makes it seem like it's geared toward women.Is that still the case or has it expanded to include. David: It's expanded to include everyone, and it's really now to the place of, well, what is your ultimate desire, right? In life, which initially when we started it, it was geared very specifically towards only health. But I realize that in that [00:07:00] health is covering all areas, right?It's not just a physical health, it's also a mental health. It's also emotional health. It's also spiritual health. And health is bigger than us because it does impact everything that we do. So through our development and kind of going episode to episode, we've now been able to diversified and expand it to anyone that wants to basically just live a freedom lifestyle or a lifestyle of freedom.for proper English, De'Vannon: oh, fuck, proper English . One thing, one thing I despise about this country. Is that we don't have like an actual language of our own. That's right. You know, we speak English well, that came from fucking England and fuck the king off with his head. Yeah. . You know, may I think that, I think that Mad Queen might've had a few Few.Hmm. A few, few, few good points there. [00:08:00] I don't know. I just it would be, I just love it that every other, basically every other country has its own fucking language. Yeah. You know, Australia at least has a goddamn accent, you know, and at least they have an accent, you know, over there in the uk, but pretty much every other country, you know, they have and in that their own language and that language really unites them, you know?Yeah. And everything like that. It's like, it's like, it's like when you're on a job, but you learn to speak that occupation's language and it bonds you. Mm-hmm. , you know, David: I feel like, I mean, it's an essence, right? I believe it's, it's an essence that makes up a country and it makes up an identity type. And look, I, I think holding onto that, that conversation there, I think it's the same thing for all language in terms of who we are as people, right?Because when we look at language, it, it's the, it's an essence that, that identifies something or someone, a country. [00:09:00] And I believe that in America, oftentimes we don't have our own unique language, meaning we strive to sometimes be like somebody else, to copy somebody else, right? To, to, to, to live the life that somebody else has.And we sometimes forget about, well, what is our core essence that we can adopt to live our own life and set our own standard, so to speak, in what we want in our life? So I just thought De'Vannon: I'd throw that in. Feel free to throw in anything you want, man. So I love, I love how how deep of a thinker you are. And the reason why I really wanted to have you on my show is that that passion, you, you talk like a preacher, like you have like one of the good preachers, y'all, not one of the rapy ones or one of the molesters , not one of the grif ones.Good one. So you have like that certain fire and intensity and passion and I could tell that you're living, like you're calling [00:10:00] and you even fused that into health and fitness and so Right. Thought it would be a unique take. I could have gotten anybody on here to talk about health and fitness, but I, I was, I was needing that, you know, I was looking for that, that.And so, which you have that spark. And so I'm curious when I Oh, you're welcome. And so when I was read, you know, researching you and everything I saw where you in the beginning of your fitness journey, you would go to the gym and you, you start up like the big muscley guys or whatever like that and mm-hmm.and I read where you were able to extract insight and wisdom and tips that you said that you felt like the personal trainers and things like that either didn't know or they weren't sharing. So I would like you to share with us some sweet ass David: secret. Yeah. Look, it really, what I've learned through I guess, looking at many bodybuilders life is that they've got [00:11:00] two to three things very clear for the.They've given meaning to everything that they're doing in the gym. Like it has a certain value and it has a certain standard of meaning for them. It's what drives them. It's what gets them up. It's what keeps them on diets for months and years on end. It's what keeps them committed to a specific outcome.So much so that even if they don't get it, they live satisfied because they know that the process and the journey has gotten them close to it or to achieving it. Right? And when I look at health, I look at, well, I started asking questions and saying, well, why is it that people don't stick to the journey?Why is it that people fall off? Why is it that they have, they're able to commit to other things, but yet they fall off? When we're talking about health, and I really come back to this piece, they've either not given health the value. That is necessary for them [00:12:00] to continue, or they've put other things at greater value that are overvalued or have greater value than they've put on health.And then the second component is really looking at, well, they haven't given value or they don't find value in themselves. They don't feel that they might be worth it. They feel that they might not be worthy enough. They might feel that they're not deserving of having the health or the life that they desire.So that was a big one. And I said, okay, so if this bodybuilder is living in this way and he's given this meaning to them, that's keeping them stuck, well, why can't we incorporate that to just any average person? To help them in their own health and fitness journey. Right? So that was one. The second, the second thing that I learned, the second sort of secret, right, which is really not a secret, but is their commitment to process, meaning their determination and dedication to the [00:13:00] sport, right?Or to their body or to their life. Because we look at, well, what does it take to get a body so greatly proportioned, so immaculate, right? So precise in a sense that it comes down to a science they're determined to achieve, that they're dedicated to that process. And oftentimes when we're looking at an average person, right, or, or, or a, a person that is on their own journey, sometimes that might be lacking the dedication, the determination, and it help, it doesn't allow them to get to their ultimate goal and destination.Right. And then thirdly, a lot of it was learning how they actually work out some of the methodologies in terms of how they're sculpting the bodies, how they're actually doing certain movement patterns and taking that muscle to failure and making the muscle grow through increasing the blood flow in that body part, right?And [00:14:00] ultimately reducing down to as little body fat as possible. So it, it brought a lot of insight that I was able to incorporate and look at, okay, if I'm not training a bodybuilder, how can I still incorporate some of these principles or some of these things that they do to a average person that is looking to maybe release 20 pounds, 30 pounds, 10 pounds, 50 pounds, a hundred pounds?Right. And it was some, some of the core essences that I believe have really impacted many people in their, in their own journey. De'Vannon: You know what I'm curious about? I don't really think like a male. I identify more with feminine energy, so I think more like a woman on mills dating. Okay. Right. And so I'm curious cuz all of this, everything that you said is like, so like meaningful and deep in terms of physique and stuff like that.So from talking to other guys and within yourself, like what are some of the things that motivate men to go, [00:15:00] you know, to work out, to get, you know, really, really defined bodies? We're gonna talk about like the obesity and everything. Yeah. You know, in just a second. weight loss goals can be different, you know?Absolutely. Going from 300 pounds to one 90 is like a huge deal, but you may not be like chiseled and well defined, but you are in super great shape, especially relative to what you were mm-hmm. . And I know that once you get like a six pack and eight pack, a nine pack or whatever, every guy I know who has that, the, if he gets out of the gym for like a month, that damn thing goes away.Mm-hmm. . And so so whenever, so they don't go more than like a week out of the gym and whenever they travel, they take their asses over the Gold Gym, fitness or whatever, like, like religion. So when I look at a man like that, I think, okay, he's hot. This is like a sexual thing. Mm-hmm. . But the, but from hearing you describe this, and from the way I have [00:16:00] observed other guys, I don't know that it's like a sexual thing.And so I don't, so how, how do men look at, how do y'all look at your own David: body? A lot of it is driven by ego in a sense that because we as men are achievers, right, strivers, we want to be in that place of, of chasing after things, achieving the provider at the home or whatever that might be for you.It really is driven oftentimes by. How can I be the best version of myself or how can I be better than him? Or how can I be better than myself to become better? Or oftentimes it's, I used to be this type of person that kept me in a low self-esteem state that wasn't who I wanted to be, for example. I can really identify to that.Growing up, I was super. [00:17:00] I was given a nickname, skinny. My dad used to call me that he didn't know. He thought it was a good thing for him, but for me, it would affect my self-esteem. It would affect the way I would view myself because I did not like the way I looked. I was excessively for my standard skinny.I would be made fun of because I wasn't able to possibly perform, be good at sports because I was a specific physique type, right? And I always found myself having to prove myself, proving myself that I was able to play football, proving myself that I could become the best athlete, proving myself that I was much more than what my body said.And so that took me into, okay, so how can I change that? I started reading magazines. I started looking at these bodybuilders and these physiques and saying, oh my gosh, who is this? Can I possibly achieve that? Then I look at their back stories, and many of these bodybuilders were the same way. They were skinny.They were very thin, they were bullied, they were made fun of. [00:18:00] And then that drove them to change that. So oftentimes it, it really comes down to each person's unique story, but I believe deep down inside there is something of that nature that is driving them, either growing up excessively skinny, low self-esteem, maybe being bullied, or it can ultimately come down to an ego-based drive that's just like, I wanna be the best.How can I achieve that wall? Let me be intimidating. Let me have these muscles because it's gonna give me a certain look or a certain presence, right? Wherever I go, that when I walk into a room, I can change or capture the environment based on how I look.Okay. No, I can't speak for every male. Right? But that's what oftentimes I've, I, I believe is, is the reasons. De'Vannon: I mean I think you might speak for quite a [00:19:00] lot of them, especially men who, who are more on the masculine side, you know, and you know, cause even like the gay world mm-hmm. , you know, your tops and everything.You know, you, you have your tops, your bottom tops are like, the dudes bottoms are like the girls, you know, for lack of better. Right. References. Even them, they get like this thing about being too thin. Mm-hmm. , you know, for me, I've always been able to keep a weight on, so I've always been like, okay, how can I get this shit offYeah. But I, but I didn't wanna be muscley or nothing like that. I wanted it like a nice, you know, curvy like, you know, womanly physique and stuff like that. And I, I guess it's just, and I guess it's just because I don't think like a guy like it, it was, it, it has been absolutely perplexing to me in my existence.Why somebody who's not overweight. Who's like super skinny has a problem with that. Yeah. You know, [00:20:00] I, you know, hearing you explain it helps me to digest that better, because all my life I'm like, okay, how can I get down to, to being, you know, skinny mm-hmm. , you know, and and then the skinny guys are like, I'm not enough.You know, I want to be more. And, and I'm all like, boy, don't you know, you fine as hell. What do you want? Like, what more do you want? So, and then perspective. Perspective, right? And then the relationships. That I've had, you know, the, the, the, the dude, he's all like, he thinks he's too thin. I'm all like, okay, whatever you need to do.I'm not judging your body, but they have it in their head. So much likes saying like, I can't, I just can't be thin. I need to like, have muscle or whatever. And so I don't know if that's like the xy chromosome primal. If I need to defend myself, I need to be bigger than the other person too. Maybe some of that's getting worked in there.I believe David: so. Yeah. And, and oftentimes it can become a coping mechanism [00:21:00] to something like when we're talking about life experiences, right? We're talking about emotional triggers, emotional pain, trauma, right? Something in experience that causes some type of impact to us emotionally or psychologically will produce a stimulant to search for a coping mechanism.And as humans, we all need them to survive to allow us to release whatever emotional impact we've received by X situation or X circumstance, right? And oftentimes, if it's body dysmorphia, right, which we can kind of label that as as well. I see myself skinny. I see myself skinny, but dude, you're not right.In our head, we create that dysmorphia type where we may never be satisfied or we just see ourselves at something else. And oftentimes when we're chasing after this and we fall into this coping action physique wise, [00:22:00] it can become a trap because again, we're never satisfied. I remember on my body building journey, it didn't matter how big I was.I wanted to be bigger. It didn't matter how good I looked, I wanted to look better. It didn't matter how many compliments I received of, dude, you have a great physique. No, no, no, but this, but that, right? We have a tendency of finding the flaws of not being satisfied, and that ultimately is caused in my belief by finding a coping action in the wrong things or releasing our set circumstances that we're feeling emotionally satisfying them or trying to satisfy them with the wrong things.if that makes sense. Oh, it De'Vannon: makes perfect sense. And that's a huge reason why I do all the work that I do to try to, to get people to understand themselves. Because so often we don't. And we think we do. Yeah. Yeah. So you hear me say all the time, people, why do you think, what do you think? Why do you feel [00:23:00] what you feel?Where do you get that belief and value system from? I love that. Is it valid? I love that. Yeah. I, I went the opposite direction. No matter how thin I got back in the day. It wasn't thin enough. I lost so much weight that I couldn't fit the men's jeans in the store that I would go to. So I had to start wearing wow jeans as I was down like a 26th waistline.And I was like, I need to be thinner, you know? And so so I guess that's like how the girls, that's how we do. And thin enough, the boys, you're not big enough. Oh my God, help us to just figure this shit out, , . David: But look, if we are doing things for the wrong reasons, that can quickly spiral to that. So that's why every time I'm doing a consultation, right, and I'm talking to a potential client, it's why do you wanna release weight?Why do you wanna build muscle? Because if the reason why you're doing it is an incorrect reason, right? Just to give it a, a name, to give it a [00:24:00] category. If it's placed for the wrong reasons or it's placed on the wrong things, that is when things can quickly become destructive. Mm-hmm. . It's why sometimes I even ask myself, right?And now, now we're get, I'm getting hypocritical because this is me and this is how I tend to look at things based on my understanding and knowledge. I become hypercritical about certain things, and it's okay, I wanna have this whole pizza. Why do I wanna have this whole pizza? I wanna have this cake. Why do I wanna have this cake?Right. And it might be, I don't sit there and ask myself this question. It happens here now because of the practice that I've had. But if we can get into a place to, to, like you said, ask ourselves questions. Why is it that I want this? Why is it that I wanna do that? Why do then we can stop and really think, is this really necessary?Is this what I want? Which is why [00:25:00] one of the questions that I teach my students to ask them is, is this choice that I'm, I'm about to do in line with who I wanna be in line with, who I wanna become? Mm-hmm. in line with the life that I desire. If we can practice, like you said, to ask ourselves these questions, I believe that we can really get good at taking control of our impulses, of our reactions, of our emotions, right.That sometimes drive us or lead us to making choices that later we can regret. . Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: you preaching now. Amen. And amen. . So, so you mentioned consultation. So tell, tell us about exactly the, so what, what kind of, so you have clients, are they seeing you in person? Is it virtual? Clearly they're coming because they want to change their physique.So kind of walk us through what that looks like and if people would reach out to you through your website. Like how does a, what exactly are you offering here? David: Yeah. Before, [00:26:00] before Covid, a lot of it was in person and it was very exclusive, right? It was like only a certain type of people. Only certain, certain instances would I take them.And after Covid I realized, look, I, I, I could be impacting more, right? And really the reason why I do everything that I do, it was to be able to help people avoid. Going through what my best friend went through, and we can touch on that story story a little later, but it was to support and to help people.And when this epidemic happened, it was a great opportunity for me to then make that expansion. So now everything is virtual. Everything is now online based, right through the academy, and we've got several different types of formats. We have a one-on-one type coaching, and then we have a group type model.And it's to accommodate people at different levels based on their commitment and also based on their finances. But it's really [00:27:00] just, we make it unique and personal to you because we're that type, right? As humans, we're all unique. We're all different types of people, so no program should ever be the same for.Because we're different, right? We have different desires. We have different lifestyles. And that's really the big key, because I believe if whatever you're doing today doesn't align to your lifestyle, meaning who you are as a person, the type of career you have, the type of of schedule you have, the type of time that you have, the commitment that you have, if it doesn't align to that, at some point or another, you will quit or you will fail, you'll give up, right?Because it just becomes unstable. It's not sustainable. So my approach in every consultation is really getting down to the root and to the desires of each person's life. Why do you wanna do it? What is your motivation? What is the driving force, right? What are the desires? What do you wanna achieve? And then from there, it's really getting to the person's commitment level, [00:28:00] right?So how much time are you willing to invest? What is your life like, right? How can we make this align or come together with your life? Because. If you're, if you're chasing health in a f in a program mindset, meaning I have an exercise program, I have a, a nutrition program, that means it's not necessarily a part of your life.You're just following a specific program. And at some point, if you don't like that program anymore, you are gonna stop doing it. But if I can now introduce health to become a part of your life, now I marry it. I bring it together with your life. It's gonna be a lot easier for you to sustain, and you're more likely to hold onto it.Why? Because now it becomes a part of you, a part of your essence, a part of your d n a, a part of your makeup as a human and as your life. [00:29:00] So that's a very critical component for me. When we're doing consultations and we're, we're working closely with any student because I wanna ensure that. You keep it lifelong.So De'Vannon: then give me an example of the sort of help you would offer. Is it meal plans? Is it workout plans? Is it helping someone see like, like, like, like what, like what, what would it actually David: be? Yeah. Again, it's customized for everyone's need, right? So it would include all those things. If let's say, no, I only need help with the exercise part.Okay, we'll tailor it to that. No, I need help with a lot of things, right? I need help with my nutrition, my, my exercise. And then I'm also battling some type of unhealthy relationship somewhere. That might be with sugar, that might be with, with alcohol, right? That might be with another controlled substance type form.There's all types of. [00:30:00] Of needs, so to speak, and we tailor it to what you are needing from mindset, the psychological side, because a lot of what we do stems from there. A lot of the choices that we're making stem from there. And my object or or my process is I wanna help you identify why you're doing what you're doing.If we can get to the core root of what is driving you to make these food choices of what is driving you to have this relationship with food, this relationship with yourself, this relationship with exercise, it might be non-existent. You might hate doing exercise, but if I can change your relationship to exercise, you're gonna have a different psychological understanding of what that is.Therefore, then you're going to be more likely prone to holding onto it and doing it long term if we can make the relationship healthy and your understanding to that is a healthy understanding. , [00:31:00]right? So we work with emotional people that deal with emotional eating, stress, eating, binge eating, right?Unhealthy, toxic relationships with their body, with themselves, with all sorts of, of, of relationship issues in that format, De'Vannon: as it says in the, in the book of Proverbs, in the, in the, in the Bible. In all, in all that I get and get understanding . That's right. So, that's right. So we're gonna, so we've talked about some of the some of the skinny boy issues.Now we're gonna talk about some of the some of the obesity issues. Mm-hmm. . And before we get into Eric, Eric is his best friend's name and he's gonna tell us Eric's story. And but I, I wanted to read some of the statistics that we had discussed before because I feel like it leads into that. So I'll read this, you can talk about that, then you can tell us about Eric.Cool. And so it says emotional stress eating is something that affects between 83 and 88% of [00:32:00] Americans, and it produces 75, 70 5% of all overeating. A recent article by C N B C revealed that 11 million people die each year due to non-communicable diseases caused by poor eating habits. And I pulled this from David's website.He has two emotional eating support.com, and then David hernandez.co. Of course, all that will go in the show notes. So just speak to us about those statistics and then tell us about Eric. David: Look, these statistics are meant. Not to alienate or not to bring shame or bring judgment to anybody. They're simply to bring awareness to help us recognize that this is a potential threat to many people's lives.And if there's a threat, the threat is to let us know while, let's avoid falling into that, or let's avoid being impacted by that threat. Or if I'm in that threatful situation, right, [00:33:00] being impacted by this, let's do something about it. Let's change because I believe we can do something about everything. If we're still breathing, we can impact it and bring change.Right. And my best friend was one of these individuals. He was part of this sort of of, of group, of people growing up. He was that kid that just. Kind of never fit in. He was husky, he was slow. He wasn't good at sports. He was he w he didn't, he wasn't coordinated, right? So he always felt like this outcast, and I was the opposite.I was skinny athletic, into fitness, into sports, super coordinated. So we had this really unique dynamic of a relationship that I loved him for who he was, but I [00:34:00] ultimately also wanted better for him because he desired it for himself. And so, through the years, we'd work out together, we'd do things together.I'd, I talked to him as much as I could about health because he was overweight and he always battled with being overweight. And his, his, his battle was, I wanna release weight, but I don't know how. I don't know what to do. And that's where I would come in. Right? I'd give him as much as I could at the time to help him.18 years after high school, we split. I moved to Miami to study nutrition and culinary arts, and he stayed in Texas and we kind of lost, we went our separate ways, so to speak. We lost communication for several years, and at the age of 21, I got a phone call, you know, that he had passed away and I couldn't believe it.I said, what happened? How did this happen? So he got so obese and he became so desperate to get the weight off that he went to get a gastric bypass surgery. Two days later, he got an infection [00:35:00]and he died. Right? And that tore me apart because I started blaming myself. I started to feel guilty. I started to.Blame. Why didn't I do more? Why wasn't I there? Why didn't I support him more? Why didn't I help him get that weight off? So after about eight months of this self sabotaging guilt and shame, I finally had to come to a place and realize, well, there was really not much more I could have done. There had to be something within him that really ignited to do whatever it took to fight for his own health.But after that, I looked at, well, what were the reasons that kept him stuck in that it was his relationship with food, even though he wanted to release weight, his relationship with food was so specific. Eating, [00:36:00] eating processed. Right, eating junk food all the time. He would love chips with cheese and hot sauce, right?He would eat that as a snack. He would love burgers. He would love pizza. He would love all of these foods that were leading him to this path. And so his relationship with food and his own psychological understanding of food was what kept him trapped. He was an emotional eater. He loved sugar, right? And it didn't matter how much he worked out.It didn't matter how, how, how he tried to change his food choices. He just could not give up what he already knew. And so when we look at people that are in this place, right, according to the statistics, it's we're using food for the wrong reasons. Our relationship with food is an unhealthy relationship.Therefore, our psychological view of food or [00:37:00] understanding of food is also an unhealthy one. And if we do not fix this or get to the core of these reasons as to why a person is making these choices, to get 'em to become obese and stay obese. Doesn't matter what diet you do, doesn't matter what exercise program you follow.It doesn't matter what ills you take, what supplements you take. The root, the core of what makes you up is your relationship with food and your psych, psychology of food. Therefore, if we do not change that identity piece, you're gonna stay stuck and you're gonna continue to go back to these habits. Right?Go back to these choices. That's why these statistics are so alarming and so eye-opening that if we don't do something about it, somebody in that state can become one of those 11 million. Right? And it's a staggering number. Hmm. [00:38:00] because of this poor relationship with food. Right. Meaning the poor habits that we have with food.De'Vannon: And you know, if when people go out and get these surgeries and everything, if their relationship with food doesn't change, they're just getting the weight back. Anyway. That's David: That's right. That's it. That's what I'm getting to. A hundred percent. Right. And we see that through many stories. But here's the thing.People go to that place because they're desperate. Mm-hmm. , right? And oftentimes people are just desperate. Give me a quick fix. Give me something. Just, that's why trends and the fitness industry makes so much money off of this. I have news for many people out there. The fitness industry doesn't care about your life.They care about your. , which is why they take out new supplements every year, new trends, every six months, right? Because they're playing off of your emotions because they know you're vulnerable. They know, a, as humans, we become very vulnerable [00:39:00] and become desperate for answers. So therefore they go, oh, now it's this.Ha ha, we just made several billion dollars. Okay, now it's this. Ah, we just made more million dollars off of this. And supplement companies know this, right? And that is where a lot of this toxic relationship starts to happen. But if we can pull back for a moment and say, okay, let's stop chasing these quick fix, let's stop going to just a quick, simple solution.Let's stop doing that and let's simply focus on this component. It's a small piece, but it is a large makeup of who we are. If I can teach you, That your relationship with food happened at a certain time in your life. And if I can help you change your relationship with food, therefore impacting your psychological understanding of food, your own psychology of food, we're gonna be able to [00:40:00]rewire your brain, which is now going to make sure that you don't go back to these unhealthy choices.You don't change you, you change those issues. Now you change you as a person. Now you don't need a diet program now. You don't need supplements right now. You don't need these quick fixes because now you've changed your core essence. And if we can change you and your makeup, you're gonna be able to stick to it.De'Vannon: It's been a long time coming, but change is going to come, so. So in your coaching, do you have like coaches that work under you? Do you deal with everyone yourself? How does that work? David: Right now everyone is myself. I do have, you know, other people within my business that help me with the management that help me with different of the technical side of things.But right now it's really just oversee by me because I've set it up in a way where I can manage it through group [00:41:00] trainings. If it's a larger base format through one-on-one type coaching. I only take a certain amount of students at a time to ensure that I'm bringing the best coaching to every individual.And then we also work with corporations helping them create corporate wellness programs for their own employees. De'Vannon: Marvelous. Now I wanna talk about, like, get a little bit more granular about some of like the the, the the health implications of becoming overweight. So it's not really about like looking fat so much as what it is doing internally.Yes, we buried somebody who was. In their mid twenties, you know, and he, because he was overweight, he, he, he was like, like his, he couldn't breathe. Mm-hmm. . And so before he, when as he was dying, he was in the hospital on a breathing machine and they had to induce a coma. Mm. You know, to just basically [00:42:00] let him pass, because what, what a lot of weight does it, it like, it strains everything.So That's Right. If you're, if you have like extra as they call it in the, in the, in the health world, Addie, post tissue, that's the scientific way of saying fat. That's right. That's right. I learned that in massage therapy school. Yeah. So if, if you have extra weight hanging on you, then it takes strain on the body.So that means your organs have to work harder to do what they're doing. They're less efficient. Your blood doesn't flow as well, because it has all this. added post tissue. In fact, to move around. It's like it's like if you feel a car full of just a whole bunch of junk and weights, it's gonna drain the gas faster, it's gonna grind the gears faster.The brakes are gonna wear out quicker of the extra weight. If you pick up a 50 pound weight and then you put it down, you feel lighter. Yeah. And so when you lose weight, you can move about easier, you sleep better, your whole quality of [00:43:00] life. Hell, for me, when I've been, like, when I've had a extra weight on me, it was hard for me to reach down and like time my shoes and shit like that.Like absolutely little simple like that, that simply get, like, that goes a really long way for like mental health and emotional wellbeing. Just That's right. Being able to, and then, then, you know, you know, sexually too, sex drive goes up when the weight goes down. That's right. So diabetes, heart disease, stroke, sleep apnea, which is kind of what I was talking about earlier.But tell us about, you know, your take on how this affects people in their daily lives and internally in their organs. David: Well, think of, think of a Python or a serpent that com contracts and compresses, right, and strangulate. When we have an excess amount on our body of this tissue, it's literally doing that.It's compressing our organs together. It's compressing our heart, it's compressing our veins, it's [00:44:00] compressing our tissues, it's compressing our lungs, a lot of it, and it literally starts to impact us in ways psychologically, emotionally, physically, right in bed to sleep, to have sex, to have relationships with people, to communicate.Most people that become overweight or become. In any of the levels of obesity also become very introverted, right? They're shamed. They don't wanna go out, they wanna stay inside, they get depressed. There's a lot of impact that happens to our life, and it's not so much about simply living, it really comes down to what is your quality of life like, what type of life, what quality of life would you like to have?So if we're in this state of being overweight and possibly OB obesity, your quality of life [00:45:00]isn't at a good standard. It's not a good quality. And when it's not at a good quality, it starts to really do a lot of damage, not only health-wise, but emotionally, psychologically, right? Which tears us down even faster.That is why health is a responsibility that we have to give to ourself and it's bigger than us because it doesn't only impact you, but it impacts everybody around you. It impacts your relationships, it impacts your mood, it impacts the way you speak. It impacts your energy levels. It impacts your relationship with your kids, with your spouse, with your boss.It impacts your performance. And so that is why I'm such an advocate of understanding that health is a [00:46:00] part of my life, my makeup. If we can take the view of it, our perspective of it in that way, which is why I'm really on a mission to change the scope of how people view health, right? And how people view healthy living a lifestyle of healthy.Freedom versus simply wanting to lose weight, simply wanting to look better. That's part of it, but it's not the makeup that really is the impactful part that should be impactful for many people's lives. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. , very well stated man. Very well stated. And I, and I also wanna point out like, you know, obesity in younger people.Yeah. It's like, it's like, just because you don't have like negative health problems specifically today mm-hmm. , sometimes it, it's like a [00:47:00] lagging indicator. It's like if you keep that weight on you for too long it can. That's right. Cause you to have problems later. Because, you know, sometimes some people go, well, you know, I feel fine.All my labs look good. I'm able to mm-hmm. , you know, but the thing is, Is that is that shit is sneaky, you know, it catches up. That's right. And lab, lab results and tests only things have to get bad enough for the lab results to the lab tests to be able to pick up on it. That's right. You know, it's like if you don't have enough of a problem, you know, those, those tests are not that thorough where they can just pick up on a little bit of an issue.It has to be enough of it. Yeah. For it to manifest on a test, and then by the, sometimes by the time that shows up, then it's too late to really deal with it. Yeah. So what I'm saying is don't think because you are young and you know, and you, you, you're, you're eating all of this. You what, how you know you're [00:48:00] overweight, that your health won't like suddenly fail you one day.Yeah. Like, I don't want people to fall into this trap of thinking like, well, everything looks good. So That's right. David: Yeah. Yeah. Because in the same way, it, it's just one moment, one. One consistent choice away from making all of that flip. Right. And look, and it's the same for skinny people. Did you know that skinny people are, have the highest heart attack rates than anyone out there?No, because they believe, because their metabolism, right. Is keeping them in this state of being thin. They believe that, oh, I can eat all this. I can eat this food, I can eat this, this burger, I can eat all this. So their intake of fatty food, of sugary foods are at a higher rate oftentimes that then causes that heart attack to happen.Right. And so it, it's, it's, it goes back to what is our [00:49:00] relationship with food like, what is our psychology of food like? Because if it's unhealthy at some point or another, it is going to break. It's going to blow up. In the same way, when we look at a relationship with a partner at the beginning, there might be some arguments, there might be some fighting.Then comes a push. Then that push becomes a slap. If the relationship is unhealthy, it starts to get unhealthy. If we don't address it, it's just a matter of time for it to blow up, right? Which is why a lot of what we do when we're even talking about obesity, I believe obesity is learned. Because when we look at, well, what makes up a person to become obese, if we're talking about the relationship with food and their psychologic psychology of food, well, we learn that at some point we were taught to eat this way.Food was introduced to us [00:50:00] from our young age. Therefore, in those moments of us learning how to become a human, how to eat, how to react, how to act, it stemmed from home. So if growing up all we were given was frozen food, ramen noodles, fast food, right? , as you grow up, you're gonna stay with that same relationship and sometimes it's gonna magnify to go from ramen noodles to eating, I don't know, one cup to five cups or whatever it is, to another type of food.Very similar to that. To salty foods. Right? To sugary foods. And that is why it's important parents, right? Or those that are adopting kids. We've got to learn for ourselves how to develop a healthy relationship and a healthy psychology psychology of food so that then we can teach that to our young kids so that then they can grow up with a healthy relationship the same way.[00:51:00]De'Vannon: Yeah. And I feel like marginalized and a lot of like ethnic. Communities are impacted more by this sort of thing because, you know, when you growing up in the hood and in poverty like I did mm-hmm. You know, you know, you too, the parents and everything are too focused on keeping a roof over the head or keeping you from getting murdered or shot or whatever.Yeah. So we never talked about like, okay, this is you gonna balance this plate. Like I have a dietician now, and so, you know, through the Department of Veterans Affairs and awesome. So they're like, and nobody's ever explained to me before. Okay, so if you're going to eat, say, boiled eggs, you just need two of those per day.And then you be sure that the most of your plate is vegetables and not proteins. You don't actually need that much protein. That's right. Like actually laying up re reading the back of a food label, paying attention to mm-hmm. , the amount of servings not being all quick Oh, a hundred calories. But it's Tenten servings in the [00:52:00] Yeah, that's right.That's exactly thousand calories. Yeah. Yeah. And so, So I just really David: wanted to, and how much is the serving? 10 chips? 14 chips, right? And we're eating the entire bag saying, oh, okay, great. There's no problem with this. Right? And look, we're responsible for our own, for our own body, for our own health, right?It's our responsibility. But we also have to look at, look, our environment may not be helping us, right? Let's look at the American standard diet, right? It's not the best. So it's very quick to sometimes say, well, this is the reason. Well, our boss is the one that brought these, these things. My friend is the one that brought my coworker, brought these donuts here.But just because things are like that in our environment doesn't mean we have to give into our environment. Doesn't mean we have to conform to these things. It doesn't mean we have to say yes every time they invite us to go get ice cream or to go do this. Right. It really ultimately, like you said, is educating ourselves [00:53:00] and taking this as our own responsibility.Because if I can be responsible for my own health and I can teach those around me as an example piece of how to be responsible the same way, then we can start to really take control of this thing that has just really spiraled from us, right? Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Absolutely. And so we just have a few minutes left here.I want to So we, so we, you know, we, we, we've given people some very, very heavy Yes. Information right now. And so I wanna lighten it up for a little bit. it takes back heavy again because I'm gonna have you close us out towards the end with your near death experience. So let's talk about some ways that people can maybe implement this.So for me, what I found is that I'm, I'm, I'm from Wakanda, so I like it hot. I don't do Yeah. Temperatures below like 70 degrees. I'm like, bitch, it's cold. I'm [00:54:00] putting my teeth David: up, and running. I'm inside the house with the sweater and the, the, the ACS off , De'Vannon: right? I'm like, I, so I, I observed within myself. I work out when I w used to try to go to the gym, come like October, I'm like, fuck all that.I'll see y'all again in April. Yeah. And so my weight would go up in the winter. Right. So what worked for me was I had an empty room in my house and then I put a treadmill in there, which you can get them from like Walmart at Target. Yeah. A weight bench. I got adjustable weights so that they take up less.Beautiful. That's right. And then my dad gave me one of those multi-function machine thingies and so, so that I had to bring the gym to me, so that's perfect. Yeah. That's what worked for me. So what suggestions do you have for people to, to make it work for them or anything like David: that? Look, that's one example of a great way we can do that, but might, some people might say, well, I don't like working out in that format.Okay, great. It's [00:55:00] how can we keep things simple? If one thing you take away, I want you to take away this is asking ourselves, how can I make health or healthy living? Simple meaning, what's one thing I can do? That is simple that I can achieve, but that I can make it fun. We forget that healthy, a healthy life should be fun.And when we get to these states, they're darn well fun because you're able to do more. So in today, if we look at, well, all I can do is walk. Okay, great. How can we make walking freaking fun? Can we find a, a partner that we could do with? Can I listen to some awesome music? Can I watch a video while I walk?Right? Can I, can I skip? Oh, what are people gonna think? Who gives a rats? [00:56:00] What can you do that is fun? You like to. Put on a freaking show in your living room. You like to sing, freaking sing your heart out in the living room while you dance. That is part of exercise that is part of fun. I had a student a lady, she, she loved to country line dance.What would she do? She'd go dancing as many times as she wanted, as she could line dancing, and that was her exercise, right? Get some pool noodles and freaking sword. Fight with your partner, get some Nerf guns and play outside, right? Like, it really is about how can I make it simple and how can I make it fun finding something today that you can do?What is one thing? Oh, well, I don't have time for this. Oh, well, I don't have time for that. What can you do? Let's stop being negative and look at what's One thing I can do. Another thing that I tell my students is every time you go pee, when before or after you're done, do five squats. Do 10 squats. [00:57:00] How much does that take you?That literally takes you five seconds to do that takes you 10 seconds to do. You go pee 10 times. How many, how many squats did you already do in one day? 50 to a hundred squats in a matter of seconds. Right? So it's really about how can I simplify this thing? Because if it, anything that we do in life is overwhelming and complicated, look, oftentimes we overcomplicate it, right?But if we can simply keep it down to, to the core essence, what is health? Health is being active, okay? What's one thing I can do to be active? Go up and downstairs while you listen to some cool music. Go walking, go punch, get a punching bag, put somebody's face that you hate and punch the snot out of it. I don't know.Let's get creative because it's so able, it, it, it's accessible and it's so achievable, but it really just comes down [00:58:00] to us.I De'Vannon: just love to hear you speak and y'all, he has a, a book that he's working on that'll be out eventually and I can't wait to get my fucking hands on it. To, to, to, to devour the written version of this artistic poetry that you weave with your vernacular. And so Yes, yes. But where, where are you? The book anyway, David: we are, first draft is done.We're going. Making tweaks and adjustments and we should be working on that second draft here pretty soon and hopefully becomes the final draft and then we can send it off to, to printing. So we're excited. De'Vannon: Oh, oh my God. If you could get a book edited in three drafts, I would be impressed. It took me 10, I believe it mine.My, David: what helps is my wife is she's like a, a, a really strong, she [00:59:00] didn't get her English major, but she got her psychology major, but she is one of her strengths if she could go back to school, would be to become an English major. So she's helping me make sure that that thing could be ready as soon as possible.So we're excited. And what's the De'Vannon: premise of the book or the, or David: it's, the premise is really to introduce this concept, this understanding of the root causes of why we stay stuck in certain behavior patterns. And it's really to shine insight on, it's not just that. There's a flaw in you or that you can't be healthy, you can't release weight.No, no, no. We all can. If we can really simplify it to the core principles that makes up this, which is really our choices and our behavior patterns, right? So we're really breaking this down into a very simple, digestible understanding for people to learn this, this side of of health, because I believe it's gonna really be groundbreaking for people to [01:00:00] start changing their choices that yet then changing their behavior patterns to become healthier.De'Vannon: Okay. I can't wait to have you back on the show to discuss that. So, before you talk about your near death experience, it just occurred to me, I'd like you to, to address some, some people may say, well the healthy foods only at places like Whole Foods, and I can't afford that shit. , you know, what, what would you say to people who may have like, budgetary concerns or believe that Great question.The healthy food is, is super expensive. David: Yeah. Great question. Great question. I believe we can all be healthy in any budget, right? Because we don't ha we don't have to eat all foods, we don't have to eat everything in a grocery store, right? There are core principles that if we can adopt and understand, we can make good food choices.And that starts with understanding, well, what is a lean protein? There's, there's four makeups, right? In the way we should be eating. There should be [01:01:00] some type of protein in every meal. There should be some type of fiber, right? There should be a small amount of carb, right? To give us energy. Our, our primary food, our primary energy source from our body comes from carbohydrates, right?And then there should be some sort of essential fat. That is the key essential fat, right? Not just fat of all, of any kind. Right. So it really, if we can simplify it and look at, okay, what lean, what protein can I get that is inexpensive right now? Prices have gone through the roof. Okay. Can we get canned chicken, right?Can we get tuna? Can we get things that are proteins that are fairly inexpensive? We don't have to have the high processed foods. When we're talking about carbohydrates, there's low glycemic carbohydrates, meaning they have some type of fibroid substance that allows it to be [01:02:00] slowly dispersed in our body to turn into sugar, right?We don't need the chips, we don't need the ramen noodles, we don't need the pasta. We can find a list of low glycemic foods. Carbohydrates that help us find good sustainable energy. Right. We got our brown rice, which is very inexpensive, right. There is couscous, which is also fairly inexpensive, right? We have whole grain foods that we can find that are fairly inexpensive vegetables.Oh, well I don't like vegetables. Okay, well why don't we start with one that you do like that we can eat, right? And then, like you said, is having a vegetable with every food choice, with every meal, as many as we can. Right? So it's, again, it's about the education piece. It's about the knowledge piece. Can I understand what good or healthy relationship with food is so that I can then start to implement it?Right? So it's find these three cores. [01:03:00] If we can have a protein in every meal, if we can have a carbohydrate that is a low glycemic carb with every food, and if I can have a vegetable. More than likely we're already cooking within essential fat anyways, like an olive oil or some type of, of avocado oil, which is a, a essential fat.That's really all we need. Hope that's helpful. De'Vannon: Very fucking helpful. So tell us about your near death experience and then that'll pretty much wrap us up. David: Fantastic. I'd love to. 2018, I went on a mission trip to Haiti. Went to go work with a lot of help and support kids, orphanages. We have a close friend who's out there who has a, a men's kids, young men's orphanage, and a w and a young girl's orphanage.So we went to support him in what he was doing. I got back five days later. I was rushed to the hospital, what seemed to be a cold, but I had very high fever, about 110, 109. They [01:04:00] couldn't take it down with anything. Two days in there I was misdiagnosed six times. They couldn't figure out what w what I had.The third day there, there was a doctor from Puerto Rico who happened to be there. He overheard a conversation. He comes in and he says, I know exactly what you have. You have dengue fever and two other tropical viruses, and you're gonna feel like you're gonna die and you just might because there's nothing else that we can do.It's up to your body if it wants to survive. And he walked out. So, to give you a kind of a, a of a picture of this, I was at my strongest and biggest in terms of physique in size. I was actually training to compete the following year in body building. So I was about 245 pounds. I had about 25% body fat, a lot of muscle on me.I was the biggest I'd ever been. And after telling me this, I wanted to die. What we know about the dengue fever is that it's called the bone [01:05:00] crushing virus. It literally breaks up your bones from the inside, and it starts to shut down and eat your organs from the inside, right? It eats the muscle fibers, the muscle tissues, everything from the inside.My left lungs shut down, my organs were starting to shut down. My kidneys were about to shut down. I was one step away from hemorrhage and I wanted to die. That was it. I didn't wanna fight anymore. And so I just stayed there, literally unconscious for 10 days. And on the 10th day, the doctor came in and he said, well, we've got good news for you.You've beat this ding. And he said, had it not been because you were so healthy and you had so much muscle on you, you would not be here today. There's no reason you should be alive. And I said, well, if it wasn't because I was healthy and I had that muscle mass and because of God, I wouldn't be here today, right.Based on my faith. And so that experience turned everything around for me because [01:06:00] after I got out of the hospital, there was like this little internal, small voice that said, now that you've been given a second chance of life, what are you gonna do with it? What are you gonna do about it? And I woke up, I was like, wait, what do you mean?I thought I'm doing my best. I thought I could be more. I, I, I thought I, I am doing a lot with my life. But that really brought me into the turning point of what I was doing with my business, right? I was only, like I said, working with very exclusive clients. And at that point it was like, well, I'm not doing enough to impact as many people as I can with what I know.And that's what really put together body by purpose. That's what changed my whole concept, my whole value of life, my whole appreciation to people. Because when I, I, I made a commitment with my best friend that as long as I knew of somebody, I wanted to help them avoid what my best friend went through.But I really wasn't holding myself to that fully right? And so that's why I say that this experience, near death experience was the best [01:07:00] thing that could have happened to me. It changed my perspective on life. It changed my perspective on so many things. And obviously I don't take life for granted ever, but also the way I live life has also changed for me.How, De'Vannon: how in the hell does somebody catch UE fever? Is that from, so did something bite you? Is it air, mosquito bite?Well, , I'm glad That's right. I'm glad that your body decided to just, you know, everything happens for a reason. Yeah. And and it seems like the, the lower, you know, God takes us knowing he's gonna pull us back up. It's like we're stronger. That's right. For it. Yeah. I was devastated when I got H I V and I thought I was gonna die and I had this whole nervous breakdown, but now I'm like, you know what?I'm glad everything happened the way it did because it refined me, you know? Very well said. Yeah. So many different ways. And so, yeah. Alright. Yeah. So his website is [01:08:00] David hernandez.co emotion. His other website is emotional eating support.com. They click through to each other, and I will put all of this in the show notes with David's social media.Yeah. Well do you have any closing words forDavid: you're incredible. I mean, if y if I can get you to understand that and what that really means, that I don't know what life situation you might be in. There is still a makeup and a creation inside of you that is far greater than

INTRODUCTION: Jeffrey Kranz is a Bible geek who started OverviewBible, a biblical literacy website, in 2013. He uses his expertise as a writer and consultant to help people understand what the Bible is, what it's for, and what it's all about. In 2019, he wrote The Beginner's Guide to the Bible, a non-preachy, jargon-free breakdown of the Protestant canon. In his free time, he loves trying bizarre amari, performing musical improvisational comedy, and working Hamilton references into his homebrew D&D campaigns. He hides from the sun at his home in Seattle, WA.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      A Breakdown Of OverviewBible.com·      A Review Of Jeffrey's Book – The Beginner's Guide To The Bible ·      How The Bible Is Composed·      Identity Politics·      The Struggle For Gentile Acceptance·      What Exactly Is The ‘Hebrew' Bible?·      The Flexibility Of Jesus  CONNECT WITH JEFFREY: Website: https://overviewbible.comWebsite: https://jeffreykranz.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible/about CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:   https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Jeffrey Kranz[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello and happy New Year. I hope your year is phenomenal, fantastic in everything you want it to be and more. Jeffrey Kranz is the Brains Behind Overview bible.com and the author of The Foundational Read, the Beginner's Guide to the Bible, which is a non preachy, jargon-free handbook to what the Bible is, where it came from and what it's all about.Jeffrey is here to help us understand how to navigate the Bible, learn about God, and expand our minds in a loving and open-minded [00:01:00] way. I've never heard anybody coin the term non-Christian Bible study until I met Jeffrey Kranz.And so I'm delighted to bring this interview to you so that you can learna little bit more how to navigate the Bible and to do so in a non-judgmental way. Lots of love to everyone. Please enjoy the show.Well, we have us here another episode of the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. And I'm here with a, a beautiful redheaded man by the name of Jeffrey Kranz. And he lives up yonder in the, in Seattle I believe you're in. That's correct. And and and I discovered him. Trolling around, no, that's not a cute word these days.I around on on [00:02:00] YouTube. But finding like different videos because I've recently discovered that I'm more of a, like a visual learner. So I've been consuming documentaries and all kinds of videos. So I've found that it sticks in my head better than re reading. Depends on what I'm reading. And so I discovered Overview Bible's YouTube channel and then thus the website.And so then I reached out to Jeffrey in hopes he would reply and he replied to my message and everything like that. And so here we are. Jeffrey. How are you? Jeffrey: I'm doing well, Devean. Thank you so much for having me. been looking forward to De'Vannon: this. Danielle's gonna enjoy how well spoken Jeff Jeffrey is like his, his dick's flawless and everything like that.And so so you are what I would consider to be. A Bible scholar, you are very, very detailed in your approach to all things that have to do with understanding this book. So the, y'all, the reason why I [00:03:00] reached out to Jeffrey as opposed to so many other people who are in various forms of media talking about the Bible is, is, is his approach.He's not really like trying to push Jesus on people. He's more like trying to make information available so that people can make up their own decisions. And so his objective neutral approach to it I found to be so refreshing in light of how so much of Christianity is trying to be forced on people during this day and time.And so his methods are very simple and easy to understand. And so it reminded me of how in the Bible, in the Hebrew Bible, it talks about how Jesus taught with simplicity. You know, he wasn't like super dramatic and over the top and trying to make everything a big deal and, you know, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.And then his, his Jeffrey does a lot of drawings and they're super colorful. And so that really made me feel like I was back in elementary school again, which just really warmed my, the boy and at least still lives inside my soul . So. [00:04:00] So Jeffrey, what would you like to tell people about you personally?Maybe some of your background education and what got you so impassioned about this book, ? Jeffrey: Yeah. Thank you so much for the kind words that made me feel good for, for those listen. . It's, it's about eight in the morning in Seattle today. And I feel like I'm starting off my day on a, on a very kind note.So, so thank you for all that. This is gassing me up and it's a Friday no less. So this is gonna be a very good day. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, so I would describe the overview Bible body of work as you know, you, you really, I, I think you encapsulated it pretty well when you, when you used the word neutral. I, I really like making things learnable and so I think that it's important when you're approaching something as large as the [00:05:00] Bible to, to have an idea of just what it is, what it's for, and what it's all about.Before you start really getting into, I guess the, the musts regarding re regarding biblical study, you know, when. When I was introduced to the Bible it was very much in the context of this is, this is what you should believe about the Bible. This is, this is what the Bible means to us as a family.This is what it means to us as a faith tradition. And so it, it came almost shrink wrapped in, in that sort of context. And, you know, I, as a child really, really got into studying it. I I really enjoyed analyzing the structure of the books. I started doing that as, as more of a teenager. And I was teaching Bible studies as a teenager and, and as, as an adult afterward.[00:06:00]And so what what I started doing when I was in my twenties was writing, writing overviews of the individual. That of, of the Bible and trying to help people who didn't necessarily have a lot of context to be able to approach it in a non-intimidating way. And so that's where, that's where the website came from.I started doing YouTube videos a couple years thereafter to try and help more of those visual learners out there and just grow as a presenter. It was a cool way to, to grow few skills that that I wanted as well. And then the book came later. De'Vannon: Oh, you say you did this when you were in your twenties.you still look young. . Jeffrey: Thank you very much. Devon . No, no, I'm I'm 33 now. De'Vannon: Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know, that was like yesterday. So you started working on this maybe like in the last 10 years, this whole body? Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. . Yeah. It was, [00:07:00] I, I would say, Yeah, I think 2013 was when I wrote the first page for overview bible.com.And then I was done with the first stab at pages on every book of Bible. So if you go to overview bible.com I have an overview of each individual book of the Protestant cannon there on, on that website. And that was how the website began. Now I have more content digging into characters and themes and, you know, items from just the history of the Bible as a book.But no, that was how it began. Just individual overviews, trying to make it a little more approachable for people in my. De'Vannon: Let me make it more clear to people just how granular in detail your website is. So it's like, if you're reading one article, something [00:08:00] may be hyperlinked, is gonna take you in a further detail and then again, in a further detail.So like he said, he has an overview of all the books, but he also has overviews of like many popular characters. Mm-hmm. the Bible too, individually. So I was reading in there this morning before we got on, like, you have a breakdown on like on each of the apostles you have a breakdown on like the different prophets, the minor prophets, the major prophets who wrote the psalm, you know, and then there's a breakdown of like, of all of those.So this, like the, the painstaking detail that has gone into, into your website is absolutely mind boggling. I mean, I've never seen a, a bi, a bi biblical website make it so it's so much complex information. And it's presented in like such a readable way, and it's a lot thank you of little details in there for a lot of different people.So like on my website, the Sex, drugs and Jesus one, I'm creating this like little [00:09:00] minicourse version that shall never be as com as complex and detailed as your website is. Because I just don't want it to be, and my, my website's already as extra as I am and it's got a lot going on and so Nice. So his website is overview bible.com.Like the namesake says overview. Jeffrey likes to use this term high level view a lot. Yes, I do . And so if you watch his YouTube videos over on his YouTube channel, which is also Overview Bible, you know, you'll hear him say high level view. So his YouTube channel parallels. The website, and you'll see YouTube videos embedded at various points throughout the website as well.For those of you who want to click over to it. Mm-hmm. . So I really love the way the website is really well written. The YouTube channel compliments that, and then you provided these different mediums of learning and you've got everyone covered. [00:10:00] Thank you, . Jeffrey: I'm glad someone likes it. . De'Vannon: So you have a lot of comments on your YouTube videos though?Like people Yeah. Really. Have some feelings. One person called you a cult. . Yeah. Jeffrey: Yeah. That's there's always, there, there's always a new and interesting opinion on on YouTube and sometimes it's mine. But, but yeah. Yeah, it's, YouTube is a funny place. I think that the. Ability for people to just kind of browse and say whatever's on their mind can lead to some really interesting questions.And I try to approach most, most questions and comments in good faith. YouTube is also just kind of a breeding ground for bad faith arguments as, as many comment sections on the internet are. So [00:11:00] yeah, I would say that I would say moving from the website, which was predominantly found via Google to to making YouTube content as well exposed me to a lot more of the, of, of, of some thoughts that people have on the sort of material that I make.So, yeah. Yeah, the comments can be, can be pretty interesting. I feel like, and you know, Devon, maybe you deal with this too, as, as another internet creator. I feel like there's always a balance to be struck between like engaging, interesting comments that that people throw out. And, and then also saving yourself time and energy in, in responding to things and trying to assess the utility there.It's a fundamental exercise anyway. De'Vannon: So the way I'd say what Jeffrey's saying y'all is that some people are batshit fucking [00:12:00] crazy and they're not worth the damn time.Jeffrey: Yeah. There are, you know, the, the, there are some comments that, that I'm just like, okay, well this is this. I don't think there's much more for me to say here, , De'Vannon: you know, you know, as, as, as, as, as the saying goes in the good book, you know, every time we go to do good there's evil presence. And so, you know, weak-minded people are going to come onto our websites and send us nasty messages because this is, you know, the force of negativity trying to hurt us through people who are vulnerable to such influence.And so this is why we surround ourselves with people who are positive minded and who cater to positive energy and lighted not to negativity. Not, not so much cuz we judge the people, but because, you know, negativity can reach us through them. And so, Jeffrey: It's, yeah, I think, yeah, that's, that's such an interesting, [00:13:00] it's such an interesting part of the world, isn't it?Like the, I, I think that negativity wants to, it almost feeds by creating more of itself. And so positivity is almost an act defiance against that. Like, how can you, how can you continue to approach people maybe that you'll never meet again in good faith and be, or at least for, for me, I, I, I try to, even if someone's being mean online, it would be nice to be someone who is kind to that person.See, De'Vannon: now that's it. Sunday school teaching, right there, coming out , . Jeffrey: I mean, sometimes I'm better at it than others. I, I have responded to some comments with, and I quote, sir, this is a Wendy's. De'Vannon: Yeah, the, the, the, the, the, the, the redhead fire in you does come out in those comments. I would expect nothing lessAnd so, all right, [00:14:00] so the, his book is called The Beginner's Guide to the Bible. So that's what we're gonna talk about. Just a few parts of it. It goes over a little bit of the, well, it goes over a lot of the history, you know, of the Bible and where it came from and everything like that. And then the latter half of it is like a very deep overview, but still a deep look into like, literally each of the 66 books of the Bible.Mm-hmm. . And so tell us in your own words who this bible, who, who your book is written for. Jeffrey: Yeah. So when I started writing the Beginner's Guide to the Bible it, there was a specific conversation that I had with someone I had been doing improv with for, for a couple of months. And she was talking about how she had never really grown up with any sort of religious background.She didn't really have any context [00:15:00] for for what the Bible was or really what Christianity was at all. But she wanted to be able to speak with her aunt about things that were important with her. And I think this conversation was in 20, I think this would've been 2017 20 17, 20 18. And so there was, there was a lot of discussion happening in her family around like, politics, what does it mean to be an American?What does it mean to be a Christian? And my friend had no context for that, that third piece. And so in that conversation I had said, or she was saying, yeah, I just wish. I wish I had more context to be able to talk to my Christian aunt about these things that are important to to both of us. And I said, you know, I've been, I've been kicking around this idea of writing down just kind of like a beginner's guide to the Bible so [00:16:00] that you had, even, even if you never went to Sunday school or if you grew up in Sunday school and never really spent much time reading the Bible, which is a lot of people who would consider who, who would, you know, say, oh yeah, I'm a Christian.I grew up Christian, still haven't either had the time or desire or brain space to to really read or study the Bible said. I said I would like to establish some sort of baseline with a book. And she said, if you write that book, please let me know as soon as it's done, because that is, that is exactly what I want.I wanna be able to have an intelligent conversation about the bible. Without necessarily needing to go to seminary or, you know, go to church or do all the work to try to to try to arrive at, at where you're at. And I do think that that's a very fair thing to, to ask for. So, oh, you look like you've got a question.De'Vannon: No, you keep talking. [00:17:00] You're here, Mike. Cool. Keep Jeffrey: going. All right. All right. So that was the conversation that really sparked writing this book and when, when I finished it in 2019, felt like I had a good first edition. That would be for someone who knew that the Bible was important, but didn't necessarily know how to talk about it with anyone that didn't already share their beliefs.So if you read it now you should be able to have. A good baseline for talking with a priest, a pastor, a religious relative, your bartender, an atheist, all that good stuff. All De'Vannon: the fucking things. So I'm gonna comment on the, that the whole priest, bartender, and everything in a minute. So we said improv.What kind of improv you mean like some sort of Ted Talk improv? Were you doing standup comedy Jeffrey: or, [00:18:00] you know, I, I tried standup for a little bit, but I keep getting tired of my own jokes. So, no, it's improvisational comedy, mostly musical improv. That was, that was my forte. And so, you know, just a, a bunch of adults getting up on stage and pretending and making things up for an.De'Vannon: That sounds so much fun. I bet you there was a lot of alcohol and weed involved in perhaps other hallucinogenics, . Jeffrey: Sometimes, sometimes there is the, the improv community is really interesting. Like you've got, you've got a full, you've got the full range of debauchery from like afterschool special appropriate to absolutely notDe'Vannon: I'm here for the absolutely not appropriateSo I think it's interesting you said that, you know, your book, you know, is gonna help people be able talk with the Bible, talk about the Bible with their pastor and atheist, the bartender, or anyone that's interested. [00:19:00] So I think this, this statement speaks your open mindedness cuz you know, when I was growing up in.You know, they told us not to dare step foot in a bar, let alone have a conversation with a people bartender, you know, and an atheist. You know, they, they built up our egos to act like, you know, we're so great and we're better than everybody, you know, the heathen folk and everything like that. So, the fact that you're mentioning these taboo people who are considered outliers, outcasts from Christianity, by so many of these churches and preachers and pastors who look down their nose at them, I think validates, you know, your open-minded approach to this.Thank you. . I've been in churches where they were like, you know, don't, if somebody doesn't make enough money, don't even talk to them. You know, they were like, you don't want their, you know, brokeness bringing Oh man and stuff like that, . Oh, Jeffrey: that sounds so healthy. , De'Vannon: you know, that's, you know, that those were [00:20:00] the Pentecostals who told me that shit, you know?And so and where I think they get this from is how in the Bible, you know, you have like the Nation of Israel and God's telling his people to be separate from the people around them and everything like that, which has all kinds of like historical context and stuff like that, that we can go on and on for hours for.But there was a practical reason why God told them that he did not say for everybody who, whoever believes on him to distance themself from whoever they feel like isn't living right. You know, that's an example of people taking the Bible and doing what the fuck they want with it. Which is super easy to do.Yeah. It, Jeffrey: it's . Yeah. I'm, that's, that's kind of one of the reasons why, you know, in the book, what I, what I put a lot of energy toward at the beginning is talking about what it is and what it's for. Because if you treat this [00:21:00] collection of ancient writings as something that is essentially your magical codex and then whatever, whatever meaning you can pull out of this, because you can link your thought to this magical book, then that gives it authority.If that is, if that is your mindset, then you can wreck a lot of harm on the relationships in your life. You can wreck a lot of harm on people that you don't even necessarily know. If you, if you bring that into the world around,De'Vannon: That's what I call the batt crazy, like what I mentioned earlier, because you know, the, you know that and there's a lot of ego there, you know, for somebody to read through the Bible. Ultimately, what I believe the Bible is for is for each individual to read through it, to find out how they can improve themselves, end of story.Like it has nothing to do with policing somebody else, you know? You know, [00:22:00] but it's presented that way. So, so we're talking a lot about, like, talking about the Bible. I think it's fascinating. You know, we talk about so much stuff with our friends, you know, sex, who we've slept with, who we're gonna sleep with, who were dating.Oh my God, the travel, all the trips were taking, you know, I bought this thing, that thing, you know, and yet when it comes to like religion and Christianity, I think the furthest generally as society we've come is the whole universe. So people will be like, I'm gonna manifest this in the universe. That is very friendly talk that I get everywhere I go, but specific deities are like gods and stuff.Mm-hmm. like that, not so much. And so I like, like your rhetoric and everything. Just the fact that, you know, suggesting that somebody would want to have a conversation with a pastor, an atheist, just to converse at all, rather than just saying, oops, we shouldn't talk about that, is like a big deal. I get this from, [00:23:00] like, I remember when I was like, you know, younger in my twenties and going around all the gay bars, doing all the cocaine and all the drugs and everything, you know, and trying to be cute.But you know, we never really had serious conversations about religion, , you know, or life. If it was, it wasn't Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, don't bring it up. You know what, I'mJeffrey: you know, you know, I think I can honestly say that I've never been in a situation in which, if it's not Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan don't bring it up, really applies to me.But I have been in plenty of contexts in which religion did not come up myself. , I've, I, I guess it's safe to say I've had a lot more conversations about the Bible than I have about Lindsay Lohan. De'Vannon: The thing is man in, in the gay community and just in general [00:24:00] society, we talk so much more about the things we want to acquire in life, our successes or, or the experiences we want to have, be it drugs or traveling or going fishing.But we barely ever talk about spirituality. Hmm. And then usually when people mention the universe, it's about something they're trying to get from it, you know? Yeah. I don't really hear people who subscribe to the universe as their higher power is talking about like spiritual growth a lot. You know, self-help and self-development is separate from the speak of the universe.Like when the secret first came out and everything like that, you know, I watched that video and it was very much about, I'm gonna put this picture of this house on the wall, I'm gonna get it right. You know, it was all about like, what can I get? You know? I'm not throwing shade at it, I'm just saying it just is very grabbyJeffrey: It's, it's really interesting and I think that, In some ways, like it's an unfortunate [00:25:00]side of human nature to approach something good and then say, how can I exploit this? Like, how can I get, how, how can I use this for all it's worth for me? And I think that that really gets to I guess what I, I shouldn't say what religion is good for, but like the, I, I think conversations around spirituality with the people in our lives are a really good opportunity to, to check that.Like, that's, that's one of the reasons why I like discussing spirituality with folks because it feels like an opportunity to identify ways in which, you know, maybe we're, maybe we could be thinking about ways to be good to the universe in return and what can we. , what can we contribute to, to the cosmos around us as opposed to what can we extract for, for ourselves right now?Obviously we need to get, we need to get good [00:26:00] stuff too. But I think having, having an attitude of generosity for the universe is also really helpful in spiritual conversations. Can help Facilit facilitate that. De'Vannon: It's balance, man. This is what I'm saying. This is, there was nothing wrong with us doing all the cocaine and talking about Lindsay Loja and Paris Hilton, but we should have talked about something spiritual too, you know?So, yeah. So get, get all you want, but give too. So what I. What I hate is when I have friends who I've known forever and talk to all the time, who never talk about anything spiritual. And then like when something happens to like one of their kids or something bad happens and they take the social media wanting all this prayer, and suddenly everything is Jesus in my faith.And I'm all like, bitch, I didn't know this about you, . Wait. Oh man, where'd this come from? . Jeffrey: And that's, that's really interesting. Like, I think that one [00:27:00] of the, one of the really interesting things that or, or an interesting topic that I find myself discussing with like new friends is like, what, what is spirituality even for, like, what's, what's the utility in being a spiritual person or things like that.And, and I feel like what, what you're describing is, is something that a lot of people. we're told religion was for right. Like this is, this is your channel to go to someone or something that's more powerful than you because they can do things that you cannot. Mm-hmm. . So once, once you like, reach a spot in which you realize that you can't, you don't have the control that you want you don't have the resources or the talents or you know, the, the scope in order to realize what you want, then what do you go to?You go to your, your religion to try and see, okay, well is there anything [00:28:00] here that can help me? Now that I've exhausted everything De'Vannon: that I can do,I want people to stop looking at God as a means to an end though, because none of us want some, want some food coming around just when they want some shit from us. Like nobody wants that. And so, God lets us abuse him like that , you know, because he's really nice. But , Jeffrey: I think it's, I think it's really interesting, like, because a lot of, a lot of the thought around like asking, asking God for things doesn't seem to take into account like where that thing is going to come from.So, you know, I, I think, I think we're all familiar with like this idea of two people fraying that their sports team wins the same match. Well, okay. It's, I think it's pretty clear to see like where the interests are aligned there. Or we're [00:29:00] not aligned there. Like that's, that's pretty, that's pretty base level.But then even in the Bible, you've got the, the problem of job in that, oh, job loses everything, has no idea why he's lost it. and ends up, ends up saying, you know, I, I want to file a complaint with God. Essentially asks like if God had a manager job, would've asked to see him or demanded to speak with him.And you know, at the, at the end of it, we see God just saying to Job, look, you don't even understand why the ocean stops at the beach. Like you don't, you don't know how any of this works and you want to file a complaint with, with me and how, and how it works. Like this is just beyond your understanding.The system is so complex. And, and I think that, you know, like that that human desire for there to be someone making things right in the [00:30:00] end has been part of, that's been part of us for as long as we've been a species as far as, as far as I can tell. And. Like when to, to, to bring it back to like asking God for things or just like demanding things.I think I think that as, as far as the picture of God has been painted in like the Hebrew Bible and, and the New Testament, this God seems to understand and, you know, not really begrudge humans of of asking him for things. But there's, there's something bigger. There's always something bigger at play than, than what we want.And you know, the Apostle James says that if, if anyone lacks then they can ask for wisdom and God you know, God's not going to begrudge them that. And [00:31:00] so I think like asking, asking for things like wisdom that don't need to come from somewhere else, like, that's not going to disrupt any other part of the system.The way asking for rain or asking for money or asking for, you know, a child or things like that might, I think asking to have more of that divine perspective I think, I think God will, God will make it rain on that front, right? Yes. But, yeah. Yeah. But, but no, I, I don't, I don't think God gets annoyed by, by us asking things.And I, I, I agree with you. Like he is, he puts up with a lot of our bullshit because he is nice. But I think he's also wise and he knows that we're just children and we're doing the best we De'Vannon: can. I know he's not angry. I'm angry on his behalf. I'm like, I want y'all to see that he's a person, he's like a human without flesh, whatever personalities we have.What, you know, he's that. The more, because we're [00:32:00] made in his image, you know, we're just like little versions of him. So his feelings to get hurt and stuff like that, though he possesses the capacity could be completely objective in spite of his feelings being hurt. So I just want people to see like the humanity in God.Mm-hmm. , even though he's totally divine, and yeah, we can ask for everything, but still, he's like a person and you know, you know, he, he has feelings. Yeah. , Jeffrey: that was, and if you read the, the Old Testament prophets, you'll see that. De'Vannon: See just best feelings. You know what, I don't. , you know, so we're not gonna be on this earth forever, and eventually we're gonna look at God in the face.You know, our relationship with him cannot just have been transactional the whole time. You know, at what point are we gonna just get close to him for who he is and just talk, just, you know, know him. Mm-hmm. , you know, and I get off my soapbox on that. I wanna comment on something that you had mentioned earlier about your, like your, your family, friends, relatives, associates, saying like, they don't, they're trying to figure [00:33:00] out what it means to be American and to be Christian.So I just wanna say that to be an American is like a blank slate. You know, this country doesn't have its own language. We don't have a national religion. Like you can't speak American, like you can't write American , you know, this country. It's just like, oh, somebody says just like a white, well, they took a, like a, a, a dry race board, such as you have behind you , and, and there was a bunch of indigenous people on it, and then they like, kind of wiped the majority of those out.And then they, they just took, you know, when we went down to African and snatched people and threw them in there and, you know, and just like pieced it together, you know? So to be an American is what I, I don't really know. It's like this, whatever do you make of it, you know? Allegedly, it's supposed to be a whole lot of freedoms here, but that's not the case.But there's no like, say, like, you know, Italian, you know, culture, you know, rooted in us and stuff like that. You know, there's [00:34:00] no, Americans have pasta, you know, there's no, you know, the French have their crepes, you know, you know, there's no like American. You know, so it's whatevs. Jeffrey: I mean, we got serving sizes, right?we got we got, we got the supersize, we got the drive through . We got De'Vannon: things that the world laughs us about. So we have the golden arches. McDonald's. Yeah. Fast food capital. We're the fast food capital of the world. Arah,And what does it mean to be Christian? Well, you know, that's also very, very, very, very vague because you have many different denominations, you know, that are all supposed to be following, you know, the same God. But it seems like we can't get on the same page. So I think what it means to be both of these things, American and Christian, is very individualized.And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I think it's a beautiful thing because it requires each of us to get to know [00:35:00] who God is for ourselves to see what exactly Christianity is gonna look like for us. Go ahead. Jeffrey: It's, it's interesting how much of religion comes down to identity politics. Like so much of, so much of what it means to be a Christian comes down to what that individual means by Christian.Cuz you can talk to a thousand different people who would say I'm a Christian, and then ask, okay, well what, what about you makes you a Christian? Or, or what, what does that mean for, for you? How does that make your life different from what it would be otherwise? And you can get a thousand different responses.And so, you know, granted, like many of them will say, oh, well I [00:36:00] believe in the Niacine creed. I believe in the Apostles Creed. You know, I, I subscribe to this, or, or, or that. But ultimately I think the reasons why, We take on labels is because we want to, we want to know where we fit into the world. And identity politics is a really big part of that.But the De'Vannon: danger there is letting how another group of people define themselves define you, or how a certain group of people want to define you. Define you. And so then, so you're trusting that they're right and that, and you're believing that you're wrong. And which is how I entered into Christianity, believing the guy up in the pool pit knew better than me.And so then I would bend my mind. Yeah. Whether I dis whether I agree with what he was saying or not, I would change my mind by force to go with what the guy on the stage was saying. Now, I would never do that again because I, I need, I see the falling in that. So you know this, that sort of person you're describing is what we would call.[00:37:00] Maybe somebody who's not super experienced in their faith yet. Maybe it's somebody new. Cuz as you grow in God, eventually you'll get the point that you actually don't need a preacher , you know, or a whole group of people to . Yeah. It's, yeah, Jeffrey: you don't need it. But I don't think I, I mean, it, it sounds like we're touching on maybe one of the darker sides of like Bible study and I guess the way people approach this sort of topic in that we, we like having rubrics and we like having scorecards.And, and so like when, when we're dealing with topics of like morality or, or identity, then. It becomes like, I, I think humans have this this natural [00:38:00] gravitation to say, okay, well we know that there is good and bad in the world, and therefore, how do I make sure that I can identify what's bad and how do I make sure that nobody thinks I'm bad?Like, that's, that's something that I think a lot of people immediately try to figure out. And so that's where the rules come in. And that's, that's where like the, okay, well I'll, I'll just bend my mind to believe what what I believe to believe what I believe. The people who tell me what to believe, believeAnd I promise if you play that sentence back, it makes sense, . But that's, that's what we end up doing because we want to fit in. with a group of people that, that are going to affirm this idea that we're good and that we're, and that we're doing, we're doing what's right. [00:39:00] And I think that when you get to know the teachings of Jesus, and if you, if you can approach if you can approach this God with who you know, like John says, God is love, like if you can approach someone who could be described as as love personified then I think, I think you start to understand that it's not so much about checking boxes or, or meeting a rubric or criteria and signaling that you're good so much as it is just changing from within.And like all your core drives becoming more and more aligned to acting out of love for. For people around you, for people in general and for the world, De'Vannon: for the whole wide world. Mm-hmm. , let's spread some love. [00:40:00] So you, indeed, you make a point to say that this is not a Christian book, like right at the top of it.So what, why, like, explain why. Like, I, I, I believe that I know why mm-hmm. , so, but I'd like to hear you say it. Jeffrey: Sure. Well, it's not a Christian book because it's not trying, like in, in my discussion of the Bible, I'm. Really not trying to influence what you believe about God or what you believe about the person of Jesus.Like that's, that's not what you're going to, to find in there. And in fact, I try to be I try to not even say things like, you know, God says this without saying, [00:41:00] the ancient Israelites believed their God. Sid said this, like, I want, I want to keep the, the discussion focused on what the Bible is and what it says.As opposed to trying to say because we have these shared beliefs, then we can agree that this is what it says. I think that that's dangerous because it gates the, it gates the meaning of the Bible behind some sort of creed. And that's just, I don't think that's a helpful way of approaching or understanding such an old set of documents.You know, people appeal to the Bible when they're making legislation. People appeal to the Bible when they're making decisions as to who they're going to date or marry. They appeal to the Bible when it comes to how they conduct themselves in society. And these are things that [00:42:00] affect so many people who aren't Christian and, you know, don't necessarily have any reason to, to have the Bible in their homes.I think that it's only fair that there should be resources that help everyone understand what this book that everyone's appealing to says without them necessarily needing to either adopt beliefs that they don't have or pretend. To adopt those beliefs in order to, to get the education. Like I think that this is something that a lot of people appeal to when making decisions that affect other people and those other people should have as much as, as much as possible and unbiased means of understanding what these people are appealing to.De'Vannon: I'm gonna read two excerpts from your book that I feel like has to do with this right here, what we're talking about. And we were talking about [00:43:00] what does it even mean to be a Christian? And you were saying from the book it says, with so many Christians joining the faith from different backgrounds, there was a lot of confusion as to what it was they were actually supposed to believe and do.How did you theologians former prostitutes, wealthy merchants, illiterate slaves and other diverse people live their lives together, the follower of Jesus. And the other question posed in the book was, what should they do about the Jewish law? Then you say, if churches are a mix of Jewish and non-Jewish people, Jewish being of the bloodline of Abraham, non-Jewish, not of the bloodline of Abraham, as I understand it.How would Christians handle the culture clashes? The Jews had methods and traditions of food, worship, work, sex. The other cultures had their own approaches to these. How would they start out? Cultural differences in a new mixed community? Mm-hmm. in the book of Acts, which I think is a titillating read now that I'm, you know, older and I know how to go now that I'm able to look through it myself.[00:44:00]Mm-hmm. , one part that they never preached to me in the book of Acts growing up and all of them in their churches was about just how much the Jews hated the Gentiles. And they didn't give a damn about what Jesus said about all y'all kissing makeup and get together , they. It really had a heart. The Jew, the Gentiles being people were not naturally the bloodline of Abraham, people who were outside of the culture of the nation of Israel, who God said when he rolled out that, that vision to Peter, he's like, I want everybody, I cleansed everybody.Everyone can now come. Those people were not trying to have none of this. You know? They were like, we don't want them still. And so the book of Acts, a lot of it's about, yeah, the Holy Ghost coming and speaking in tongues, but a lot of it's also about, just hear what I just said. And what Jeffrey talks about in his book is, how the fuck do we infuse, you know, us together?Because up until the time of Jesus, God had told them, be separate. You're, you're, you're gonna be [00:45:00] holy and different than all these nations. And now all of a sudden he's saying, nevermind everybody play nice together. And so they had a meeting in the book of, And when they came out of this meeting, they were like, okay, if you're not of the bloodline of Abraham, then don't like eat chit strangled meat, strangled to idols, or some shit like that.It was like three tenets that all had to do with idol ideology or some shit like that. Jeffrey: It was, yeah, don't, don't eat things that were strangled, don't eat food sacrifice to idols, I believe. And I think it was abstain from sexual immorality. And then in in Galatians Paul, Paul says that like the, the main stipulation was care for the poor.So like, I, I think in terms of acts, those first three were, were the things that James just kind of said, okay, all right, all right. Like, we're, we're not gonna hold everyone to, to keep the whole Torah. But, [00:46:00] but we, we do wanna make sure that, that we're aligned on these three things. Is that the, is that the, the conversation that you're referencing when, like Paul and Barnabas come down from, from Antioch and they, they have this whole discussion as to whether or not Gentile Christians need to abide by the, the Jewish law.Right. It De'Vannon: was a whole scene. It was a whole scene, yeah. And so whenever I reference the Bible, I try to call it the Hebrew Bible to remind people that we're talking about a, a Middle Eastern book, you know, from all those years ago. Jeffrey: And just, and, and just for, for your reference, the Hebrew Bible in the Bible are kind of two separate things.So the Hebrew Bible refers to the Old Testament and like there's today a, a lot of folks call it the TaNaK, long time ago, I think it was called like Miska or Mik. You can, you can tell I'm not a Hebrew scholar. But, [00:47:00] but yeah, the he, the Hebrew Bible. Refers to the books that we now preserve in the Christian Bible that were written in Hebrew.So Old Testament books ranged in a different way for the Hebrew Bible, but that's, that's the Hebrew Bible. New Testament was written in Greek. And so like the Bible, you're right, was written in a different part of the world. The Hebrew Bible is, is really in reference to, to the Old Testament.Anything with acts would be, that would not be included in what most people refer to as the Hebrew Bible. Just, just so you know. De'Vannon: Thank you for the education. You got itAnd so it sounds to me like what they decided was that people can keep their own culture and like you said, agree on those things. And so, I think a reason why a lot of people are unhappy or they don't make it very far with Christianity and following Christ is because they're trying [00:48:00] to do too much. You know, God is not asking you to act like his people did over 2000 years ago.He's not. He's asking you to not put anything else before him. And he said to basically treat everyone else nice and to get serious, you know about God. So when Jesus says the love, the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and the love of your neighbor as yourself, he says, basically everything boils down to those two things.And so that's why I'm a big proponent of people getting past, just asking God for stuff and actually getting to know him. You know, because you got to, any relationship we have with anybody cannot just be based on getting stuff from them. We have to go beyond that. Yeah. And so and so I think that we have more freedoms in Christ than what the church tries to let us know.So this, so I don't know. I don't, I mean, I don't think he could get any clearer than this. You know, God himself has said, do your culture, but just worship me first. You [00:49:00] know? I don't, Jeffrey: yeah. And, and I think, you know, to, if we were to, to bring all of this around to what you had originally brought up like what the early church was dealing with, like this this desire to remain faithful to this to these traditions which we, we still have these, these documents preserved today in the Old Testament but also wanting to, you know, wanting to welcome in people that did not have any of that context and in fact had very, very different contexts.And this is, this is where I think that that command to love one another. Really starts showing what, what I maybe like most [00:50:00] or en or enjoy most about early Christian teaching which is you, you can't necessarily know what the long range ripple effects of anything you do are gonna be you know, to, to someone in the first century.I don't know how much they, how, how, how much they would've known about the nutritional or scientific benefits of abstaining from non-kosher foods. You know, like to today, today there's a lot of, there, there's a lot of talk about like, going back and like trying to find the science to make these ancient commands make sense.But that's not necessarily what people were, were dealing with back then. Like they, they just had these traditions. They wanted to acknowledge And, and I think that what Jesus did was gave us this opportunity to say, [00:51:00] well, what if we instead of tried to check the right boxes? And what if instead of trying to see you know, who is, who is necessarily winning this game?Or are we playing this game? Well what if instead we made it about acting out of love for, for those around us? Cuz while you can't know the long range ripple effects of anything that you do you can know for sure whether or not you're acting out of love for someone else. Like that's something that you can always, you can always check.And in many ways it's kind of like the only thing that you can know when you're doing something. So, like when I, I think that that's a, a harder rule because it deals with. Becoming, you know, a transformed person. But it's a simpler rule and I think that's, that's something that, that Jesus did. And I think that's what, [00:52:00] that's what gave the early church so much, so much appeal.De'Vannon: So in other words, Jesus was like, way more chill, , Jeffrey: and in other ways, way not like I like. Yeah. The, this idea that this idea that you can, that you can come in from anywhere like this this kingdom of God is, is something completely different from the empire of. And, and this this faith tradition doesn't rely on you being from a certain nation and then converting from, from one, you know, ethnic tradition to another.It's instead focused on you bringing yourself and and just using who [00:53:00] you are on behalf of, of those around you. Whether, you know, that's, that looks like giving giving of your, your resources giving of your services just being compassionate to, to the poorer around you. Like that's, that's what we see in in the early church.And yes, there, there was concern about, you know, there, there, there was concern about traditions and there was concern about teachings. But the. The general narrative that you're seeing there in Acts is one more of opening up than than closing off. I love De'Vannon: how Jesus broke. His own rules. So, you know, like when he was going through the cornfield and eating you know, on the Sabbath day and you know, and look back how and when he referenced how when David went into the temple, you know, and ate the holy show bread and stuff like that, you know, Jesus is like, yeah, the [00:54:00] rules are here, but if it comes down to it, you put people before rules.Because I think he said something like, rules were made for people, not people for rules. Jeffrey: The Sabbath was for man and not man for the Sabbath. Yeah, De'Vannon: yeah. You know, and so. and the love part comes in when you go, yes, it's AAB today, but I'm gonna heal this motherfucker anyway because he needs it. The rules be damned.Yeah. You know, so a version of that today would be like, we're gonna show love to this woman and let her get, get whatever abortion she needs if she wants it. We're not going to be like, well, these are the rules, you know? So 10 year old girl, have the baby anyway, even though you just got weight. So,Jeffrey: oh man. The, now I am, I am someone who enjoys petant or Petry a good deal. But no, the, define De'Vannon: what that word is. . Jeffrey: Petry. Okay. So I, [00:55:00] I am the guy who's super fun at parties because I will, I will show up and be like, I, I am kind of like the All right. Well actually it was this, or, you know, like I'm, I'm, I'm very much like a social nit picker when it comes to like answering trivia games and, and things like that.So respectfully annoying might be one way of putting it. So, so I do, I do enjoy picking, picking through the rules and lawyering around life. I'm not a lawyer, but that can be fun. However reducing someone's life to this academic exercise of whether or not something is, is right or wrong according to the rules, I think is just, it's dehumanizing.It would be, yeah. It, and, and I think that's a huge problem that that people, that [00:56:00] people in Christian circles, Are dealing with today when we, when we elevate this idea of being, of having a purity of creed but not, or, but elevating purity of creed over the way we actually treat other people. I think that, that, I think we could all do do a lot better on that De'Vannon: front.I'll just say amen on that . But there's, yeah, there's just, there's just so many rabbit holes can go down there. Yeah. Jeffrey: Yeah. It's, and, and it's, it's super frustrating. I mean, like, I, I grew up very much encouraged to, to look out for false doctrine and, you know, watch out for, for people that that might be trying to lead me astray and, and you know, just like be, be very play defensive when it came to [00:57:00]When it came to identifying with other people, and, you know, to, to some degree, I still, I still have a, a lot of that baggage today.But I think that if you are, if you gate yourself and if you gate the ability to commune with other people behind making sure that you agree on things, then you just, not only, not only does that result in just less love shared in the world, which I think is a negative, but you also just cut yourself off from so many connections that you cut otherwise have.And, and yeah, like that's this, this idea of trying to make sure that someone is clear before, before being able to relate to them or before being able to think of them compassionately, I think is it's a pretty big problem. Mm. De'Vannon: [00:58:00] What he said, y'all exactly how he said it. So, so in your book till you get very clear about detailing, like where the Bible came from, what it is, and like you said, what it's for mm-hmm.and you say in there that the Bible didn't, and I'll paraphrase here, like basically magically fall out of heaven. No. So growing up, and this is a good thing because your book really does that high level view because in there you talk about how it's important you compare the Bible to like a big 600,000 piece jigsaw puzzle.Cause apparently many words are in the Bible. And so you're driving the point home is that you have to get, you have to step very far. To get clear on the full scope of the Bible, what it is historically, how it's organized in your book. You know, you talk about who really wrote the Bible, you know, there's so many books we don't know the authors, you know.Yeah. From this time, you know, just cause someone's name on the book doesn't mean they, it doesn't mean that they wrote it. So, growing up in church, [00:59:00] you know, I used to think, you know, they always say the words divinely inspired. So, and this, it just made it seem like the book was always there. So, so what can you tell us about like, how the bible, how it's composed and it's, you know?Sure, Jeffrey: sure. That is a, that is a huge question. Let me, let me try and, and distill this real quick. How the Bible's composed. I think that in order, in order for us to talk about that, like the, the Bible. That we referenced today. And let's, let's just say, say it's the Protestant Bible. For, for the purpose of this conversation you have the, the Old Testament, which that's the first like three quarters of the Bible.That is that is a collection of texts [01:00:00] that the Israelites preserved that in order to show their relationship with their God. New Testament was composed and preserved to help Christians and churches understand the teachings of Jesus and what to do about them. How were, how was, how those two works were composed is kind of different.So let's start with, let's start with the Old Testament. Old Testament. You've got oral traditions. That, that people were just sharing, you know parents to, to children. Eventually these oral traditions become written traditions these written traditions get compiled into these literary documents of, of various types.[01:01:00] Then these documents came together as part of larger literary works until eventually we have the tark which is, you know, the, the Hebrew Bible the, the books of the Old Testament. And so you have these who have these works of writing that fit together as a larger literary masterpiece. And so when we're talking about the Old Testament, like how is it composed?A lot of these works are older than the documents that we have today, because like they, they've just been preserved and and edited and, and I don't say edited in a way that n necessarily means, like they were, they were, it's, it's not like you edit a document before you, you send it off [01:02:00] to, to a client or, or your teacher or something like that.Like these are, these are just works that were in the works for, for a very long time. The writers had their rhetorical agendas and then they, they joined this larger library for the New Testament. It's, that happened over a quicker period of. Followers of Jesus wrote down things that Jesus had said and then also wrote down things that Jesus followers said and did.And so these documents got passed around a lot by early groups of Jesus followers called churches. Eventually, a couple hundred years later, by about the, the fourth century in the common era, most like every, every book that we have in the New Testament today was relatively known and used by [01:03:00] churches.It wasn't until over a thousand years later that we actually got this definitive cannon of what books belong in what we call the New Testament today. So long, long answer to that question. Old Testament oral traditions People speaking out on, on behalf of Israel's God. People preserving that in order to tell that story of Israel and their God.New Testament got this person called Jesus. People write down what he wrote. People write down what his followers did. And eventually the useful documents or the ones that a lot of people found useful got preserved today. De'Vannon: Thank you for that breakdown. I think you did an incredible and spectacular outstanding job.And so thank you . Woo. And so, absolutely. And so there's a video on your YouTube channel called [01:04:00] 12 Non-Trivial Facts about the Bible, and I feel like as you said in that video, you wish you had known these facts before you got started reading it. Yeah, I think that that's a very good video as well.You know, I'm driving all these points home to make the point that when people are reading the Bible, either before they start or if they never thought of it like this before. So really take a step back and take that high level view, you know, and see historically how did this all come together? You know, you know what's what.And so the last thing that we're gonna talk about is we begin to wrap up here. You know, in your book, a part that I felt like was very special was how you talked about like the covenants. Mm-hmm. you know, you talked about the covenant of Abraham with Israel, Moses, you know, with David and how we have our covenant in Jesus Christ.And so, you know, this, this beckons back to the whole point of God trying to reach out and communicate with us, get on our level. The fact that he was willing to even come down in the whirlwind and [01:05:00] talk to Job, read him for filth basically, you know, and then turn around and bless him the way he did. You know, God is Big O God.He doesn't have to, to to talk to us. You know, like he's our equal, you know, if he doesn't want to, but he's been trying to just have a relationship with us, you know, the whole time. You know? And so I appreciate it, the fact that you highlighted all the different covenants in what they mean. Jeffrey: I'm glad, I'm glad that was helpful.And, you know, for, for those listening, this is, this is one of the things that I do in the book to try and make this enormous collection of documents, the Bible a little bit easier to, to grasp. If you think of, you know, this 600,000 piece jigsaw puzzle I pull out four, four parts of the Bible that can almost be used as the corner pieces.And that can kind of frame [01:06:00] the way the way the Bible fits together in your mind in, in a pretty, in a pretty straightforward fashion. So those, those four covenants are the, and, and a, and a covenant kind of using antiquated language here. But the Bible's an old book, so deal with it, I guess.De'Vannon: deal with it. . Jeffrey: Yeah. So so you've, you've got these, these old like solemn agreements that that God makes with with a handful of figures in Israel's history. And, you know, Devana, and obviously you've already read this, but these, these all relate to God's presence in the world and God's blessing for the people of the world.[01:07:00] And so understanding these four high points between God and Abraham, Between God and Moses and the nation of Israel, between God and David and Jerusalem. And then also between God and Christ and and the whole world. Understanding those points in the relationship really bring the rest of the Bible into focus.De'Vannon: Yeah. Yo, this book is practical. It doesn't have to be this overly spiritual woo woo thing, you know, it's practical. I wrote a blog on my website called The Common Sense of the 10 Commandments to break down how practical God thinks, you know, when he tells us to do something. It's for like a practical, physical reason.It's not just like, For fuck sakes or for rules sake, you know, or just to, you know, just to like have shit. So I'm gonna throw a little bit of shade at, at the Catholic church before I give you the floor for the last word. I feel like so much shit about all, you know, most organized [01:08:00] religions and especially the Catholic church, is just so extra for no purpose that I can articulate, you know, what the fuck are all the flowy robes and the, the goddamn processes, the protocols, all the pump, all the circumstance.You know, I, I think all of that is to just like, mind fuck you and to put you in a, a state of suggestibility so that you can't, you're focusing on so much shit. You can't really be critical of them. I just, I think that they're just like so over the top. And for me of all people to say something over the top, that is a big damn deal because I am an extra bitch , you know, all day long.I am a Sagittarius and I don't know when to quit. And so for me to say, you know, I got four felonies to prove that. And so for me to, so for me to say the Catholic church has gone too far, That that's a big deal. So I just wanted to throw a little bit of shade at them for not being simple. And practical and easy to understand like Jesus isJeffrey: Turns out [01:09:00] turns out running an empire is a little bit more complex than preaching a sermon sometimes. De'Vannon: Oh my God, when, when you say that, I'm getting parallels between the Galactic empire and Emperor Palpetine and the Pope. I think they're the same people. I know it . Jeffrey: It's Palpetine, not papain. Which sounds like some sort of only milks chocolate milk mixed chocolate milk drink.De'Vannon: Do the Pope is the Sy Lord. He is the Sy Lord. this whole time . Well, Jeffrey: no. Well, no. Hold on. I'm Pope Francis. Has gotta be the nicest sy Lord in the universe though, if that's, if that's the case. I mean like, he seems like a pretty nice guy. De'Vannon: That's until he executes order 66. It's[01:10:00]Jeffrey: It's, it's funny like the, you know, I, I can appreciate, I, I appreciate tradition. I think tradition has so much, has, so, like, there, there's, there's so much of what's cool about being human bound up in tradition gating understanding behind, behind behind regalia or, or behind I guess an ordeal.Can I, I don't think that's as good.De'Vannon: Okay, so tradition's cute, but I see too much sacrifice of people on behalf of the traditions, you know, is my thing. And then I [01:11:00] don't get where it comes from. So did God tell them to write out all these prayers and all of these things that you have to do before you qualify to be baptized or before you qualify?I heard the word say, as long as you have faith you can believe, not that you have to attend a catechism class. You know? So, Jeffrey: yeah. And that, and that kind of gets, that gets back to what we were talking about earlier, right? Like using rubrics to show that you're good instead of, instead of what's within, like how, how do we, how do we get people to behave sort of love for each other and for De'Vannon: the world?I say, take all the robes off and just put on fucking clothes and sit down and say what you got to say, . I'm done with it. There we go. But with that, Jeffrey, I thank you. You heard it Jeffrey: here first, folks, . De'Vannon: So Jeffrey, thank you for your time. I want you to again, his website is overview bible.com. His YouTube channel [01:12:00] is the same.The book is The Beginner's Guide on How to Read the Bible, A non preachy, jargon-free handbook to what the Bible is, where it came from, and what it's all about. The last word, anything you wanna say to all these beautiful bitches in the world? . Jeffrey: Hello? . No, no. The last word. The, the last word should not be.Hello. No. Thank you so much, Devon, for, for having me here. I, I absolutely love talking about this. And you know, if this, if you're listening and this makes you curious about, about this book, I just want you to know this is. The Bible isn't going anywhere. It's been around for a long time. And it's something that you can know just as well as anyone who believes it.And you, you don't necessarily need to, you don't need to change anything about yourself in order to understand what, what this is. It's [01:13:00] at the end of the day, this is information. This is something that is important to a lot of people and you, you don't need to adopt what someone else says about this information in order for you to know it.It's very knowable.De'Vannon: Hallelujah tabernacle and praise .Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is [01:1

INTRODUCTION: Join De'Vannon as he closes out 2022 with some real talk on bad preachers, the church's hustler-like mentality, Tyler Perry, Joel Osteen and so much more...  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      My Takedown Of Preachers·      My Takedown Of Tyler Perry·      Religious Trauma·      Shade Against Joel & Victoria Osteen·      Lakewood Choir Bullshit·      The Hustler State Of Mind·      Taking A Step Back·      The Three Things I'm Glad I'm Not·      Unpreached Scriptures ·      The Church Choir Orgy  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:   https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Solo Dolo: Bad Preachers[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello everyone and welcome to the Final sex Drugs in Jesus episode of 2022 , I'm so happy to have you here and I appreciate you listening all year long. Heaven's blessings reign down upon you in massive abundance. For the support that you have shown this show. So as we get ready to close out this year, I thought I would end it.You're sharing, you're sharing some shit with you from off of my heart. I [00:01:00] love how I can use this show to heal both myself and other people. I hope I say something that's meaningful to you. Hope I say something that changes your life. I hope I say something that helps you to go a little higher.Now in this show, I'm gonna dive a little deeper into the problems I have with the modern day preacher. And about this choir orgy that happened that one time at that one Pentecostal church back in California. . Stay tuned. Enjoy the show and have a happy fucking new year.Hello, all my beautiful, delicious people out there and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. This is your final show that I'm giving you for this year, right here in 2022. Before we roll on over in the 2023, hopefully, God willing I've been toiling about what was gonna be the final show for the year, you know, and I didn't wanna do another one of those.[00:02:00]Hey, next year's gonna be great sort of messages and everything like that because we hear those all the time. And so I was, I. , I like to use my show as a, as a cathartic tool for myself. It helps me heal to talk about things that bother me. And I know that the things that bother me bother you too because of the way some of you have reached out to me and have shared with me the problems that are going on in your life.And so one of the biggest problems that have ever plagued me in my life has been the church dealing with preachers and stuff like that. And so I wanted to take a moment and, and just give my take on, on preachers specifically. I've talked a lot about churches and religion and stuff like that. That's a free book that I just released on my website called Don't Call Me a Christian, what is his Word even mean?And you can go to my website, download it, [00:03:00] and go to several different bookstores and get it here for free, as well as all at Sex Drugs and jesus.com. And so, I wanted to start with the scripture in Jeremiah 23 that I've never heard a preacher preach before in church because this scripture preaches against preachers.And how much of the Bible is littered with God? Not, not just striving with sinners, but striving specifically with the priesthood, but the kings of Israel and with people who are under positions of authority, you know, who really killed Jesus and responsible for his crucifixion church folks. And there's no sense for us to be so naive as to think that, you know, just because we have the Bible to read the mistakes that preachers and priests and kings of the past have made that churches are not going to turn around and do those same things today because they're totally, absolutely doing the same things today, or as they say, history as a way of repeating itself.So in Jeremiah 23, [00:04:00] There's four scriptures that I'm gonna read. So four verses I'm gonna read. So please bear with me. It just says, woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pastor, says the Lord. And therefore, thus says the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people.You have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not visited them. Behold, I will visit upon you. The evil of your doings says the Lord. And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries, whether I have driven them and will bring them again to their foes. And they shall be fruitful and increase.And I will set up shepherds over them, which shall feed them and they shall fear no more nor be dismay. Neither shall they be lacking, says the Lord. So what is this scripture saying here? This scripture is coming for pastors, preachers, priests, whatever you want to call them, thought leaders, whatever. [00:05:00] Who, who do damage to the congregation, who do damage to people who listen to them.And then they don't go back intend to the damage that they have done. Instead they just press forward with more book deals, with more church services, with more arena tours, you know, and everything like that. And soI was flipping around social media the other day and I saw where Tyler Perry was speaking at Lakewood Church. Okay. So I was like, okay, I didn't know when he became a preacher. But I guess, you know, the way churches are these days in times you're famous enough, or if you have a large enough platform or people to you and you can get onto churches you know, platform and speak to people.Maybe he is a minister, I don't know. But, but what pissed me off was what he was saying. And I think it was like, as he was closing his message, he was saying, [00:06:00] the thing that I've heard so many people say in so many churches from coast to coast and around the world, Christian churches now about how if you're out, if you're growing in life and you're prospering and stuff like that, there's gonna come a time according to them, I don't agree with this at all, that you're gonna have to outgrow the people around you and don't be afraid to let them go and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and so on and so forth.And thunderous applause erupted. And, and the comments, you know, on, on the social media, like, yes, of course. Oh my God, that was the word I needed. Same shit that they always say you know, in these churches. It, it's, it's so, it's so expected. It's so . It is just, it's just, this is just what's gonna happen because church people are so damn, you know, programmed and so,What I don't like about it is I don't feel like that we should be rejoicing over leaving somebody behind. You know, if this person was a friend of ours, [00:07:00] at some point, you know, these preachers are not even saying, you know, leave them behind because they hurt you, try to destroy you. That's different.They're saying is, you used to be on the same level, I guess now you've gotten some promotion at work or whatever the fuck, you feel like you're now elevated and this person is now beneath you. If anything, if there must be some sort of disconnect because you feel like somebody's holding you back or whatever, I think that that's a sad thing because y'all started off great and now you're losing a friend.I don't, I don't get what the clapping and the thunder is of parole is for that. That's something that shouldn't be done, regrettably, if it has to, but with, but with sorrow. Not with joy. But what does this do? It feeds on the narcissism that prevails within the church body. There's this thinking of you know, I have to improve, but only if somebody else's, if only if somebody [00:08:00] else's diminishes.So I'm like, so like, why can't it just be like my growth and not my growth relative to somebody else's lack of growth? You know, when I was, when I used to go to churches, they would take this so far and they would say like, you know, if somebody is, you know, not speaking positive or not being good, or whatever, Christian enough, you don't want them to hold you back from your blessings.So they would tell us not to let them ride in our cars, don't speak to the people and do all of these things that Jeremiah 23 is saying not to do. You know, the, the Lord always said to go back and find the one lost sheep. Not, not to, to, to discard of them and just move on. This whole idea, we're just gonna move on and leave certain people behind so we can go forward in life.Is it, it just rubs me the wrong way. And I hated seeing Tyler Perry at Lakewood Church of all [00:09:00] places, you know, the largest church platform in the country when the big is in the world next to Hillsong Church, and their Hillsong is caught up in their own scandal right now. Brian Houston is currently going through trial right now for his daddy molested them boys and they didn't tell anybody.You can find out more about that at, at the Leaving Hillsong podcast. Tonya Tonya Levine is covering that over in Australia as we speak. You know, like why, you know, why is, why is, why is this same message still being preached? And I, you know, I, and I really fell out with Tyler Perry anyway because, you know, I was researching him and, you know, and I found where, you know, he does not accept mail from people.No fan mail, no nothing. Like, so either he only wants to be contacted electronically or not at all. But the people I physically talked to on the phone, you know, verifying this, they, they really sounded more like gatekeepers that were just like trying to block anybody from reaching Tyler Perry. And I [00:10:00] thought, you know, this isn't the same tone that he had back when he was trying to come up and was wondering if anyone would come to any of his shows.You know, now he's come to a point that he's not even interested in getting a letter from a fan. , but this makes sense, you know, with how Lakewood Church is and how Tyler Perry is now very dismissive, you know, of people who they feel like are beneath them. You know, the same thing happened to me when I was there at Lakewood and I got kicked out for not being straight.But this mentality, you know, you know, and that's that same mentality that prevails. They'll leave you behind in a minute. And, and I, I really think that there is an overemphasis here on the impact that somebody else can have on our destiny, you know, just by us hanging around them. You know, your purpose is your, your purpose in life, and there's nothing anybody can do to take that from you.What God has for you is for you. It's a shame that, that the body of [00:11:00] Christ, that these church people are so damn fragile, are so damn made out of thin ass paper. It, you know, such, such, such thin veneer that they think that just merely hanging around a person is gonna cripple them so much so that they're gonna completely miss their whole purpose for existence.Again, this is not the same as somebody's actively working against you. What these preachers are saying is just don't even be around somebody who's not, I guess as you're, as you might examine them to be on your level, whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean. And so, and my whole thing is this, even if you are being elevated to another level, that means you're going somewhere you've never been before.That means that you're going to hang around people you've never hung around before. So you currently are not on the those people's level where you're headed anyway, and they're being open-minded and humble enough to accept you. Okay. They are not treating you the way you're treating your ex-friend by [00:12:00] saying, bye, you basic bitch, I can't fucks with you no more because I'm better now and you not on my level.So I'm gonna leave you behind because I have to grow. That's all I'm gonna say about this. That's part of this. It just really pisses me off the way churches, when these preachers get on this whole, you know, we're all gonna move forward, but we're gonna leave people behind, you know, you know, if they, if they no longer serve our purposes or we deem them as heretics or whatever the case may be,you know, and just for references, I continue down this, this path I'm on. Just remember, you know, the gospels, you know, are littered. You know, with, with, with church people striving with Jesus, Jesus didn't really have to fight, you know, with what's considered the Gentiles, people who are not people, not really like, who are not really like, hanging around godly things all the time.I don't know why, but this, this, the war really comes from within the church though. The, the book of Malachi, you know, the first couple of [00:13:00] chapters of that is all about God struggling with priest, not struggling with sinners, you know, struggling with priest, you know, the leaders of the church. There is so much in the Bible about that, but this does not get preached.Why? Because it doesn't serve the churches agenda. You know? It's difficult for a preacher to preach these sort of scriptures, like what I'm talking about today, and not include themselves in it, because that would be obviously, , you know, to be like, I see God here in Jeremiah 23 is talking about these trifling ass preachers.But that's not me though. Well, that's not for them to decide. . So , you know, and everybody has a super high opinion of themselves. Most people assess themselves really, really great at the beginning of the book of Revelation when John is sending out the letters to the seven angels of the churches. You know, God is judging these churches and getting entering into judgment with them, and he's assessing them and letting them know, y'all are not really as cute as you think you are.you know, you're not as far along in your spiritual growth. As you might like to, [00:14:00] to, to say that you are. And so he's giving 'em a gut check moment, a performance evaluation, if you will, and letting them know you're doing all of these things, but you're not as glistening as you think. And look, God's judgment is the only judgment that matters.It doesn't matter what our friends say about us, our lovers, our family, our our preachers. None of that unless say, preachers truly has a divine word or something like that, which preachers these days don't. When they prophesy, all they're doing is speaking positive things over you. There's nothing more than positive manifestation that is not the same as true prophecy.True prophecy is past, present, and future. Not just good things are going to happen, you know, great things are going to happen. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, what they say is so general. I grew up with true prophecy in my life and things like that where people can tell you what's gonna happen, when it's gonna happen, how it's gonna happen.They can tell you what happened in the past and you, you know, you know, my dreams come to me the same [00:15:00] way. You know, when, when the spirit reveals to me things about people that they have done or doing or are going to do, and I go and talk to them about what the Lord is trying to, to deliver them and to heal them.That's true prophecy, not the spoken positivity that that prevails in churches today. I mentioned the Leaving Heal Song podcast. I wanna give a shout out to the Preachers and Sneakers Instagram page because that that guy preachers and sneakers tracks celebrities and how they buy all this expensive shit and all these expensive clothes and stuff like that, and how.that really, really turned a lot of people off from following Christ. You know, it's up to you to make your decision on that. But I think it's a very, very interesting way that he's followed that. And then he even wrote a book called Preachers and Sneakers too, I believe it is. And so I mentioned earlier about how I didn't, how, I don't like how these, these, these, these preachers, they just [00:16:00] discard people, move on, keep selling out, you know, selling their books and stuff like that.You know, that's how I feel when I got kicked outta Liquid Church. I talk about this all the time because it's one of the biggest, you know, scars that I yet bear. It's one of the greatest traumas that ever happened to me in my life. And it's something that still affects me to this day. Though I am getting better every day.You know, every day I'm a little less bitter. You know, as I clear this out, what really helps me is being able to talk to people like you who are willing to listen to my show and everything like that. And I, and I love you cuz it heals me so much. And I pray that you be healed too. , you know, to, to have served that church for so long and so dedicatedly, you know, being on time most days of the week, showing up early, staying late, you know, you know, to be kicked out because I'm not straight, won't say discovered on my MySpace page, you know, and then, you know, nobody called me from that church, you know, all those years of serving and volunteering, [00:17:00] you throw me out and nobody called to see how I'm doing.What did they do? They just kept on moving forward, kept on having church services and, and then they told me I wasn't the only volunteer that they kicked out. They said they do this all the time, . So it was just common to them. And so, so speaking of like these arena tours, so what I mean, and so you would have like, say Joel and Victoria, Joyce Meyer Ministries, Hillsong, whoever, you know, would go and do just like a, a Beyonce or somebody would do and go s.Goes to Madison Square Garden or whatever, Verizon Wireless Center or wherever, and and do like a concert, you know, it's, it's the same sort of mentality. You know, they don't, I think, I think Joel and Victoria would charge people, like, I wanna say, let me like $10 to go and know, so, which made it look like it was to cover the cost.But [00:18:00] the thing that I want people to consider is what is the monetary benefit outside of ticket sales? So if I'm a celebrity and I'm making music, I gotta go out and tour to promote my product. To promote whatever cha uh, streaming channels I might be on, or whatever else I might be doing. So these churches are not just going to spread the gospel, they're also going to sell their books to sell the music they've produced and created, you know, to also get people more engaged in their church to, to ultimately gen gen, generate more revenue for the church.Do what you want with this. I'm just trying to get you to consider the other implications. It's not just the word of God coming to your town. These people are coming to your town to get money from you too, you know, and to, and, and to boost their bottom line. And it just, it looks so much like the world, the way that they conduct their business and stuff like that.And it's so [00:19:00] hypocritical of them because, you know, they're like, don't be like the world. You can't, they don't want you to smoke and drink and fuck and, you know, do anything and masturbate and you know, in heaven forbid you're not straight, but. Then when it comes time to money, when it comes time to the money, then the, then these churches look just like the world.They, they cannot chart their own path. They go and say, let's do it . They literally gonna say, let's do it the same way these other people did it so that we could get money like they did and so and so. Like. I just can't, even with that, speaking of Joel and Victoria and, and again I talk about Joel and Victoria and Lakewood church cuz that's the church that I was at, you know, I was not at some other church otherwise I would talk about that church.It just happens to be the lord of church in the country and one of the most prolific churches in the world just happens to be that. And so they were going to New [00:20:00] York to do what they call a night of worship, I think, or whatever the fuck they call their shit when they go out. And I was in the choir, the adult choir at this time.and they wanted the choir to fly with them to New York. Okay? You would think that a church that size with all the millionaires running around there with all that money and the church being a volunteer unit, that they would have paid for the choir to go. Not so honey. Not so for those of us who would've gone, we would've had to pay our own way for the privilege, okay?Of singing background in Joel and Victoria, and oh my God, what a hot mess that ensued in the choir. It was chaos. You know, fighting over who's gonna go, who's not gonna go. Room assignments, you know? You know all of this here. And I'm all like, but bitch, [00:21:00] I'm working for you for free.Your staff members, you're gonna pay to go. Oh. So I suppose my reward is gonna be in heaven. or it'll just come back to me some type of way. Eventually, I thought that that was very, like, low, you know, of the ministry to, to want the choir to be there because people are very, very entrance by the choir. The choir's fucking awesome.okay. Very organized and musically, you know, and everything like that. And people show up a lot of times for the music to these events in the church and more so than anything. And it's, it's, it's, no, it's no misstep or mistake as to why they wanted the choir, I think for their first time in New York, and I think they were at Madison Square Garden or some large place like that.But I'm like, why the fuck would I pay you to go volunteer to help booster your image that you're gonna make all kinds of [00:22:00] crazy money off of this? Then I'm gonna be in a deficit because it's what, it's the right thing to do. I just thought that it was really fucked up. Know what I'm talking about? Fucked up shit in the choir.you know, they would get on us for like, say if a fr like, I remember one time a friend of mine had on like the full choir suit and everything, like we're supposed to have, but his shoes were like, I don't know, Chuck Taylor's a, you know, some cool ass vans or some shit like that. And, and one of these stubby ass, little Sopranos was like trying to tell him he can't sing that Sunday, you know, and stuff like that.We're all like, bitch, nobody can say our feet. Nobody can say Our feet not on the cameras, not anywhere in the church. No one can see what the fuck kind of shoes we have on now. Now this dude was also queer, so I don't know if she just had a problem with the gaze or what, but there's definitely that sort of mentality of anti queerness that prevails in [00:23:00] churches.And so I've said this a million times and I'll say it, a billion queer, F queer folk. Queer folk, queer folk, queer folk, stop going to these churches that are not affirming. If you insist upon going to church and get you one that is totally okay with who you are, that way you don't have to deal with this low-key discrimination that shows up in ways like this.But I just thought that was so tacky, you know, of the choir to be like attacking people who are sh again, showing up to work for fucking free. We're showing up to work for free and you worrying about what Chinese shoes we have on which no one can see, but your petty evil hate fla soprano choir bitch.And you know who you are. And I just think about sometimes, like all the jobs that I used to have, I work for myself now because I can't, I don't have the patience to deal with people's bullshit. And so, especially for the low pay that they try to, to low ball you with, I'll go to work for somebody one day if it's for like a million dollar contract apps to fucking literally.But see, at [00:24:00] that level, you're not gonna have. Fuck. I would hope as much like pettiness like that, you're gonna have pettiness everywhere you go, but at least not nitpickiness because everybody is well paid and everyone's happy. But all the little jobs I've had along the way, they would just, you know, fire somebody over an outfit, a, a, a uniform, you know, petty shit like this.One thing I'm thankful for about the coronavirus is that it pulled the teeth out of these petty assed employers and now they can't find anybody to go to work. You know, they deserve that for being so goddamn mean and dismissive of people over the years, over stuff that was completely un jobb related when I was homeless and going from like house to house, being in these trap houses, you know, walking in there, there's all kind of people just scattered about an abandoned house laying on the floor or some drug dealer house, some or some meth cooks home or something like that.I never saw people get judged for like the shoes they were wearing, the [00:25:00] clothes, you know. , yeah. But what we were, what we were doing was totally illegal and stuff like that. And we never pretended like it wasn't, you know, there're more, there's more realness in a, in a dope house than there is in the church, but I, but I, I've seen more acceptance in a trap house than I've ever found in a church or in any sort of like, public, you know, setting like work or something like that.And I don't know, that just really, really rubs me some type of way, you know? And we're sitting here in this choir fighting over who's gonna get to go to New York and everything and sing, you know, behind Joel and stuff like that. And the last time I was at that church, I went there a couple of shit, like last year, no fi a couple of years ago, whatever.And we were filming that, the docuseries that's on my website. And, and when I walked in there, they had changed the carpet and, which was fine, but what pissed me off was that I looked up and I saw these, this [00:26:00] huge like mural. This, this larger than life picture of like Joel and Victoria and their children, and then slightly smaller pictures of like the worship leaders and stuff like that.And I'm like, Hmm, okay. So, so we've gone from like a golden calf back in the Old Testament to like these murals at Lakewood Church, these monolithic golden idols, basically in the form of Joe Victorian, their kids and the worship leaders who, who you now get to look up at every time you walk through the halls of Lakewood.And this is a golden calf idol tree of our day. Now let me step into my hypnotist mindset here, you know, cause I'm also a licensed hypnotist. Hypnosis. Hypnosis Motivation Institute is a wonderful school. Highly recommended now every time. You look up at somebody on stage, there's something that happens and your subconscious that makes you believe that that person is higher than you, better than you, knows [00:27:00] more than you, that's further along than you.And it's something that makes you all, all automatically wanna listen to them and hear what they have to say. It's something about that that makes you feel this big, very tiny while they, while you view them as this big larger than you, because they're on stage and the cameras are on them. Now, you already have this happening because Joe Victoria, their worship leaders are on stage weekly and on camera all the time, not just Lakewood Church.Many churches across the country, you know, are like this and across the world are like this. But on top of this, you now gonna put big ass pictures of yourself,all over the, you know, the inside of the church. Like, you know, to reinforce. What, what you're already doing. You're reminding the people whose fucking house it is, it's not theirs. And look, y'all making a mistake. No matter how much these churches tell you, they [00:28:00] couldn't make it without you and they need you, and they wouldn't be the same.You know, they are lying at least on an individual basis. What they mean is conglomerate. Yes, they need multiple people to continue to fund them so they can keep on living the lifestyle that they wanna live. But individually, no. As soon as you no longer serve their purposes, or you might tarnish their reputation, they will get rid of you.So, so don't let their, their, their glittery, glittery golden words make you feel like you're so special to them. You're not , you're just not. And soand so I'm like, if you just had to paint a picture, You know, in these walls, couldn't you have done like some sort of interpretation of the spirit or of angels or of the people you help of missions work? Why the fuck do you need to show us Joel and Victoria and their children and your worship leaders when they're on TV in front of people [00:29:00] all the time anyway.Like, I just felt like you could have come up with something else. I think it's vain and I, and I judge them for it, and don't even get me started on like, Joel's this, this relationship he has with Kanye West. You know, I'm just gonna take time to say right here, right now, we've seen Kanye , I can't even believe I'm saying his name on my show.What, what a tragic human mean that, I mean that with to so much just like pity, you know, to be that, that low, you know, , I'm like, so let me get this straight. I can't stay at Lakewood because I hang out in Montrose in the gay district and I'm not, Straight, even though I show up to work and I don't bring my gayness to, to church, but you invite Kanye West to be on stage with you because he what exemplifies the epitome of Christianity and everything, like what church stands for.[00:30:00]So no to the van in, yes to Kanye. I'm just gonna leave that there. The next thing on my list, , is oh, Jesus Christ. That's something about money. Again, it's not more money. And the way, and I look, I used to let myself be deceived by these churches too. They'd be like, give us your tides, give us your money, and good things.Again, that, that, those vague promises, good things will happen to you one day. Like, if they don't happen, then it's because you didn't believe or it's because you didn't have enough faith. It's never the church's fault. It's never the preacher's fault. It remind me of casinos. It's like they always keep like a dangling carrot in front of you.It's always gonna be the next hit. The next hit, the next hit the next time you put that card down, the next time you pull a a slider mash, mashed a button on the fucking, the colorful ass machines in there. [00:31:00] But one thing I, two things. One thing that casinos have in common with churches is that the house is always going to win.The house will absolutely always win. Those, those casinos have guaranteed income churches because of all of their people coming there always have guaranteed income. So, so they gonna promise to pray for you for possible money tomorrow while they're asking you for guaranteed cash today. , these people remind me of hustlers.You and I've dealt with a lot of hustlers, you know, and shit. When I was, you know, a drug dealer and I was in the game, you know, and a hustler is always gonna be sure that they're watching the numbers and the value of things and make sure they come out ahead. They going to trickle you a little bit every now and then say nice words to you to make you feel good.But if you run the numbers that, that, that hustler is always gonna make this much a whole hell of a lot. And you always gonna be down [00:32:00] here, but you gonna have good feelings though. A hustler has a way of making you feel like the, it's very special to even be in his presence. And that's really the greatest gift.I'm talking about street hustlers now. And this was, this was not something I could really see when I was still in the game or when I was still at church, but now that I've stepped away from both of them, I can, I can draw the curtain back and see both of them for what they really are in these disturbingly eerie parallels between like a street hustler and a pastor, you know, or a street hustler and the whole game and the church itself.I'm like, honey, there ain't much difference. There ain't much difference. What the hell do you really have to show for like the money that you have given to these churches over the years? They try to say Any blessing that [00:33:00] comes into your life is gonna be because of money you've given to the church. No, that's not true.But if, if they're gonna play on your fear, then they're gonna say, if you don't give us money, then bad things are gonna happen to you. A lot of churches say this completely not biblical, because in the book of Acts it says that, you know, people don't have to do anything. Except for basically not put any other God before God.You know, God is, it's not about idolatry. Are you idolizing anything? And tho that was the only thing, there was this whole big argument about like exactly what people who are not, you know, of, of the bloodline of Abraham supposed to do and not supposed to do was a whole falling out. And when they came out of the meeting, they were like, okay, these are the things, and none of it had to do with money.Tithing, you know, drugs, sex, music, you know, none of these things at all. And so basically you can give the money to your church if you want to, but ain't nothing bad gonna [00:34:00] happen to you if you don't. And so some people give, give their ties or money to nonprofit organizations that are non-religious and stuff like that because they just refuse to give their money to the organizations that discard of certain people.Keep certain people, you know, I'm reminded right now of a, a nonprofit called Compassion Art. They've since changed the verbiage on their website, but years ago, and this, this, they, this is an organization that'll, you write letters to kids in third world countries and then over time you might have a chance to go visit them and stuff like that.People just living really fucked up lives and ain't got shit. And they had on their like, if you're homosexual, we don't want you to volunteer with this program. We don't. We just don't. And I was all like, I think if you ask that kid in a third world country who's like drinking water outta landfills and walking around barefoot, if he gives a damn that the person helping him is gay or not, I don't really think that [00:35:00] kid gives a fuck, a flying fuck where his help is coming from.As long as he gets some goddamn help up in this bitch, . Okay, , fucking Americans, fucking Christians have confused and thrown so much complications. Into what is supposed to be. A simple approach to God is made open to us by Jesus Christ because of people's hate and prejudice. As my good friend John Vanier, who is the host of the Cult of Christianity podcast, and the author of the book named the Same says, every man before Jesus Christ added rules.Jesus came and simplified everything down in the two things. Love the Lord and love your neighbors yourself, and put nothing before God. And then every man after Jesus Christ went back and added more shit, more shit to it. You know, every time humans get their hands on shit, it just becomes unnecessarily complicated,[00:36:00]you know? There, there, there, there's there. There's three things in life that I'm glad I'm. A police officer, which I almost became a preacher at a church, which I almost became an A politician, which I never fucking thought about being, you know, what is it about these three things? I think that the three of them are pure calling at the onset, and they are really designed to help better society, but the three of them are so full of corruption in all, in all three of them.You have people making way more money than what the position actually pays. Does it matter if it's a p, a Democrat, capital D, Democrat, Republican, you know, both sides of the aisle. You know, police officers taking bribes, politicians taking briars. [00:37:00] Church is just, well, there's mindf fucking people, you know?And because it's, because it's easy for churches to do that. You know, like a hustler. That's one thing I forgot to say. A hustler. The first thing a hustler does if you meet one on the street is they're gonna assess your mental strength. Hustlers are really fucking good at reading people. I mean, it's like some sort of gift they have.They can size you up like that, and they're only gonna deal with people who they know are weak-minded enough to go along with their gangs. Other than that, they're moving right on. They're not gonna do that. And churches are no different. They look for the weakest people to pray on. And church people are very, very, very easily manipulated.I used to be one of those people.And so in all of these three positions, getting back to the point, you know, a police officer, a preacher, a politician, it's basically like these are such highly respected positions of society. , but these people are basically still criminals. They don't have a [00:38:00] checks and balance. They have a lot of money and a lot of power over people.And I think it's that power over people and that money is why a lot of them start out with the good intentions. But that stuff goes to your head and, and I think it's a slow corruption over time in many cases as we, you know, as they begin to justify their compromises and their negotiations with the truth.Because all three of these people have a very, very negotiable relationship with the truth. I think that we can agree on that. It's the same goes power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Okay. Or, or, or is our friend miss Sheri with the Real Housewives of Atlanta would say, you know, who gonna check me Boo?Who in the hell? You know, we're starting to get, you know, a check on police starting, but who in the hell really checks politicians? Look at all the shit that has happened in the last year or two. [00:39:00]In politics, it's so hard for a politician to actually get in trouble for doing anything. And preachers, you know, which is the episode of my conversation, that they have no checks and balances.They surround themselves with yes. Men who support their narcissism. And preachers are highly narcissistic people. It's very difficult to get one of them to say they're sorry they're anything like that. I'll give a shout out to my good friend Barry Bowen over at the Trinity Foundation in, in Texas, and they investigate all kinds of nonprofits and stuff like that.And and churches are not exempt from their investigations and they dig up all kinds of shit all the time. All of these preachers. So check out Barry Bowen, you know, on Twitter or Trinity, Trinity Foundation's website for that. I did a couple, several interviews with him too, you know, and like my evangelist Nelson, you know, my spiritual mentor would tell me someone who, who, who is a true prophet.You know, preachers just like the kings of [00:40:00] Israel are gonna be really, really strong or really, really weak. There isn't an InBetween. You know, when you're reading the Old Testament and Israels going from king to king, a judge to judge, it's like the way it'll start out. It's like such and. Died and now this new person is the king and this person was either righteous or wicked, and it was like either or.There was never an in between. The righteous people elevated Israel to good times. The wicked people brought 'em down. There was never anybody that I could remember who was like kind of, sort of both. You know, when I don't, I don't know why this is, but when you're in a high leadership, spiritual leadership position, you're either really strong or really weak.And the thing is you don't know when your preacher transitions from being strong to weak. You don't know that. You know, I look at, I look at Paula White's crazy ass, you know, standing besides Donald Trump praying and trying to prophesy and saying he's gonna stay in power and making no poems about asking [00:41:00] somebody to send her a hundred thousand dollars.I'm like, but I've seen her live before, back in the day when I go, when I went, when I used to go to churches that dealt with all of that. You know, speakers and shit like that. And I'm like, you know, at what point did you go from being somebody who's anointed and called to a Trump supporter who's just trying to get another hundred thousand dollars to somebody because you asked for it.You know, you know where, you know, where, where, when did the change come? You, you, it's difficult to see if you're setting up under these people all the time. So see, sometimes we have to get away from the influence of something that you discern and separate our own mind, our own mentality, and thinking from as it relates to whatever it is that we've been under the influence of.So yeah, it's gonna be difficult for you to render a true assessment of your church if you keep going there because you, you're consistently reposing yourself to their hypnosis. [00:42:00] It's gonna be difficult for you to, to. Properly assess things that have a strong grip on you unless you take yourself away from it for a considerable time and then consider independently, you know, but they keep you in fear and they say, if you don't keep coming here, then bad things are gonna happen.And stuff like that. I'm like, the church has way too much control over people, way too much control. so, so, so I want y'all to stop believing these preachers because it's, cuz they're on stage and because of who you think they are, you don't know them. You don't go to their houses with them. You don't hang out with them. You don't, you not there, you know, they say words to make you feel like you're a part of their family, but you're not, you know, many of them have security.You can't even get close to them on most days. You can't, they're not accessible to you. These people are not your friends. You know, they're not. And the only thing you've ever needed was the Lord. , it's not a person like they have the answers to everything cuz they don't, some of these, some of the ways some of these preachers preach is so overly simplistic [00:43:00] and especially with compared to how the, the deep things the Bible goes into, how deep our problems are.You know, I was reaching the other day over and judges about how this one woman got, you know, raped so much about a bunch of men, you know, that she died, you know, churches that they don't preach that scripture. You know why? Because it's difficult for them to act like they're the men in Sodom Gaur, who they, who they try to say wanted to have sex with.The dude is a reason all homosexuality is wrong. But then when there's scriptures in the Bible of a bunch of men doing terrible things, not wanting to actually doing terrible things to women, they don't use that to say all heterosexuality is wrong. You see? You know, so they don't get into this. So I have a problem with preachers because they only talk about the flowery shit.They don't talk about the deep shit, you know? , or they might say, you know, break up into your small groups once the main service is over to go deeper. I've been in those [00:44:00] small groups. They don't go that much deeper because those churches have a protocol and everything is guarded and protected that is ever said or spoken.The spirit is not for flow freely in churches anymore because they're too concerned with their bottom line and their image and their media schedule and stuff like that. You know, I'll never forget the time I was sitting in Lakewood Church and this woman caught the Holy Ghost. The only time I've ever seen this in any sort of, you know, church of that stature, and they put her out the, you know, they put her out, the congregate out the out the sanctuary, you know, and I was like they're like, okay, so is this God's house or is this Joel's house?You know, I don't know, because you know, the spirit wants to move and this woman wasn't faking. , you know, it takes a lot of nerve to let the spirit move you that freely in the Lord's Church in America and not be shamed, you know? And she got up and the spirit started, you know, to move and to speak through her.And you know, she was doing a [00:45:00] little dance, you know, something that, you know, I'd really only seen in Pentecostal churches, you know, and then them ushers got on her so fast, before I had a chance to, to be impressed in an about what was happening. She was already gone. And so do it in what you will. But what I'm saying is there's, I don't think that there's really as much God in these churches anymore, you know, as what it seems to be to some people.As the Bible says, there'll be a great falling away, you know, from the church. You let the church tell it. That falling away is just because we're all gonna become heretics and wanna leave God. No. Like we've falling away because the church is full of shit, you know? And full of assholes, you know, and narcissistic people.Who, who discarded people fire volunteers that are more concerned about the next book they're going to write, the next album they're gonna release in the next arena. They're gonna sell out, you know? And you know, rather than actually tending to the hurting people, [00:46:00] they got flowery words, you know, and everything like that.But for the amount of money that people pay them donate to them in exchange for what? Positive words, girl, you can go on YouTube and listen to somebody tell you something kind about yourself. You don't have to deal with the church's bullshit for that. You know,when I, when I, when I sit here and I'm thinking about the controlled churches have over people, I remember I was at this Pentecostal church in California when I was in the military out there. This church didn't have like a choir, they just had about, you know, seven or eight worship leaders or 10 whatever.They would rotate behi, you know, you know, in the back of the preacher. Well, three of the two, three or four of them decided to have them a good old orgy girl. And you wish, I'm like, Hey, you know what, y'all are young hot , you know, you, a couple of boys and girls got together, you know, [00:47:00] they need to do some experimentations and whatnot.You know, I don't see the problem with it, you know, but , one of them was a Judas and decided got guilty after they had busted their nut. And when Rand told the pastor snitch because he had this, this woman who just went and told him every fucking thing. And and I know that because when the pastor got back in town he said that his snitch told him what had happened in the choir.and and I'm all like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Why in the hell is the church getting all up in people's sexual lives, you know, in the first damn place? And then why are you announcing this to the congregation? He didn't say their name, but he was like, basically like, well, it's seven people who usually sing up here.Three of them aren't here tonight. So you know who they are. I'm like, you may as well have said the names, if you gonna be that messy about it. [00:48:00] And so, but look at how much control this person could not go and enjoy a sexual experience that clearly was planned and just let that be that, and if they felt bad about it, prayed and been done with it.This person is so convinced that they, if they feel guilty, they can't get right unless they go confess to a human. You know, that's just so, that's so stupid. Like, wait, what is the point of Jesus if. If we feel bad about something, we can't get reconciled to God unless we go through a human. What was the point of the crucifixion?I don't get it. That's why I don't get the existence of the Catholic church. I don't get their existence. I don't get half of their fucking rituals and canon and whatever the fuck they have going on. I just don't understand how there's so many people in the way of us in Jesus when the whole point of him coming here was to get rid of the necessity of people in the first damn place.And [00:49:00] so I digress. I want y'all to be cautious of these I statements, these preachers make. They'll say like, so when, when Joel and Victoria were being interviewed by Larry King and, and Larry King asked him about his view on homosexuality, the first word outta outta Joel's mouth was like, I wasn't raised that way.I've heard many preachers say this. I wasn't raised this way. I, I, I, I, I. But you know, from the beginning, it was not. So when the prophets and the kings of Israel, the righteous ones spoke, they said, this is what God says. Thus say, if the Lord, this is a message from God, not, let me think about how I was raised and see what I'm going to tell you.But that doesn't have anything to do with the cost of tea in China. Bitch. The nothing, it has nothing to do with anything. But preachers are so damn narcissistic by nature, they cannot separate [00:50:00]themselves from their message.I, I'm thinking about TD Jakes now. Who has preached vehemently against homosexuality. There was a moment where he had a chance that he was gonna like actually do the right thing, and he was on some damn show and he was all like, you know what, my thinking's evolving concerning this. You know, he got back to his own congregation and then he was like, you know, that's not really what I meant.But first of all, it's not your thinking, you know, it's not your thinking. You know, these, these preachers get there and they tell us what they think. When you hear Joyce Meyer talk all the time, she, I mean, I, I don't listen to the bitch anymore, but you know, she be like, you know, I, you know, I, I, I, I, aye you know, there, there, there's so much I that comes outta these preacher's mouths.And I used to sit there and listen and take this shit off of these people. But again, now that I'm no longer in [00:51:00] it, I can stand back and look and see how stupid I was to let them manipulate me like this. These, these ministries are not ministries of God. These are ministries that belong to these preachers and their families.These are family businesses, and you are not doing nothing more, but supporting their family business in exchange for very little in return in most cases. And this is all I'm gonna say about that. I, I hope I don't ever hear another preacher say, I think, or I feel, or what I, because we're all gonna do what we think and what the fuck do we need you for.And if everybody's gonna just do what they were raised, then I mean, that, that just goes against every, it just goes against so much, you know? It's about how does God want us to be and who can give us an unadulterated, true word from the Lord? Well, you can go and find it yourself because we all need to graduate from church.I don't know where this whole idea came from about [00:52:00] being in church forever, you know, and from the beginning. . I mean, churches were first introduced to the nation of Israel. Those people didn't go to church every week like, like that. They went up to that temple I think like once a year, or for special reasons.This whole concept of gathering like that was not an all the time thing, you know? And you don't, I mean, well, two or three people are gathered. The Lord is there. You don't, I mean, that's just you talking with your friends, your neighbors and stuff like that. But the whole purpose of church is to be a school.It's a place where you go to learn and to be educated. I guess now you go there to, I guess may be made to feel better about yourself or whatever. There should come a time where you will learn the enough from the preachers you said under, you know, they are hopefully growing, but you are too. And the thing about it is you're gonna be super serious about getting close to God.Then there's, there's gonna come a point, [00:53:00] as the Bible says in the scripture, there comes a day and time where you will have needs that no man teach you. That is in the Bible. And preachers don't preach that either. And God is calling for you to come to a point that you are spiritually in the pen. I n d e p e n D, tea bitch.Okay? And so, cause the thing, another thing I don't like is like when people try to attack other people for religious reasons and stuff like that, they always say, well hear this scripture here says this is wrong. And that, you know, but true people, people who truly has achieve spiritual growth, understand that as you walk with God, everybody's walk with him is gonna be a little bit different.In some ways. Jesus is the same. The Holy Ghost is the same, the angels are the same, but it's like when God reveals himself to certain people, in scriptures, it's always a little different every time. He never ever does anything exactly the same [00:54:00] way. So we all dealing with the same God, but he's gonna deal with us uniquely cuz we're all different people.So somebody who's truly walking with the Lord will speak from their experiences with God. You know, I've walked with God long enough. I know his personality, I know him, I talk to him, I pray to him. I read his Bible, you know, and I do recommend trying to learn the Bible in as many of its original languages as you can, or cross-referencing things and trying to look it up because those biblical interpretations and translations out there are, are done by people.I just did a show with Barry Bowen. The Bible translations industry and how much money is in it. You know nothing but white conservative people control the interpretation of the Bibles as we know them. You know, black, brown colored indigenous people, queer people. Were not at the table. You know, you know women not really at the table.And so get to get to learn those original languages as much as you can for yourself. Overview [00:55:00] bible.com. Jeffrey Kranz, my homie over there, is a great place to go to learn really what the Bible is and all the years it took to try to put it together, how it was started out being orally spoken and transferred.Everything that you need is not gonna be in the Bible. It is not. I don't give a damn what people say. It isn't. You know, they like the preachers like to use though that acronym, that Bible stands for basic instructions before Leaving Earth. Well, then at the same time, they wanna say, but everything you need is in here.Well, bitch, is it basic or is it comprehensive? Because it can't be both. And so , those preachers in their narcissism are gonna say whatever serves them at the moment. But we gotta come to a point people where we speak about God out of our personal experiences with him, and we've walked with God long enough, we know how he's gonna act.Probably in this situation, just like we do with anybody else, for all of our personalities and the way we commune with each other. This came to us from God. He [00:56:00] is the biggest person there is. You know, a lot of us have a lot of strong personalities, but we ain't stronger than the most high, and so we are just little microcosms of him.Okay. So walk with him, get to know him, and you know, whenever somebody tries to tell you, try to correct your behavior based on a scripture, you tell them to go fuck themselves. Because these people, if they really walked with the Lord, then they would know better than that. They would know the folly in thinking that that scripture is to be weaponized cuz that's not the point.God is all about grace, mercy, long suffering, loving kindness, understanding and being patient with people and being patient more like he says, if you walk a mile with somebody, walk two and you forgive people up to up to 70 times seven times, 70 times seven times a day, which is basically unlimited forgiveness is what he wants people to work towards, not refusing to make a cake for people if they're not straight and they want to get married for refusing them, service, kicking them out.This is not of God. This is of the spirit of [00:57:00] narcissism, , this is arrogance. These are insecure little people who are cavernous holes on the inside of their heart who need to feel better about themselves. By making other people feel bad. This is not God. This is something else. Posing is God, wolves and sheeps clothing, as Jesus said, would be here, has gotta be somebody.And they are found in the church. And so, you know, so as you walk with the Lord, you'll grow with him over time and you'll get to know him as a person. And then you'll be able to, to speak about the things of God and what he will or won't do based on your experience, not, not other people's experiences that you read in the Bible, though that's a great place to start.That's not where you should finish. And so by the time you get done with God, well in this life the Bible should be something you reference. And if you insist upon going the church, it should be as an accessory, not as the main meat of your walk with [00:58:00] God. Your main meat is your personal time with him.Period. Done in the story, not the pretty worship at churches, not. Not, you know, you know, not, not even the Bible, outside of your personal experiences with Lord. All those things have their place, and the Bible certainly has power in, and you can use those scriptures to, to do very powerful things in your life, to bring you peace.There's power in the word of God, but there is still nothing more important than how God deals with you directly, personally, in ways that only you know. So to sum this all up, stop letting preachers spoon feed you. You can go to God for yourself because the more you look at what those preachers like, you need them, the more that reinforces this big them and little you and baby that's not good for your soul. All you ever needed was the Lord. [00:59:00] You get to know God for yourself.Cause when you stand before him, ain't no preacher or pastor gonna be able to stand with you. You gonna stand there alone, you know, with nothing but books open with all you know, with all of your history and works and life in it. So be sure that you make a priority out of following God, out of all the things you want to get in this life.Sex, money, fortune, positions, promotion, travel, children. Be sure that you prefer God above your chief. Joy. I ain't saying there's nothing wrong with any of those things, but just be sure you put God above your chief joyand I pray that you learn the proper position of, of things in your life like, like churches and preachers, you insist upon having them and if they've done something to hurt. , please don't associate God with that, and don't be angry at God. You know, separate those two things. I once made that mistake. It was a dire mistake, you know, in my life, to let there be [01:00:00] silence in between myself and heaven for as long as I did, because of what happened to me at Lakewood.Please don't make that mistake. Yes, we've seen our friends be damaged by churches. We've been damaged by churches. Our family's been damaged by churches. But let's let, let's leave that to and just, just un understand that that was the church that wasn't God. And and let's, then let's do what we can to reconcile ourselves to God while we can.Again, my name is De'Vannon the website is Sex, drugs and jesus.com. This is a Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. I thank you so much for listening. I hope y'all have a fabulous New Year. I hope it's a year of truth. I hope it's a year of genuineness. I hope it's a year you find who you really are. And I hope it's a year that you're able to hear your own thoughts separated from the crowd, and you're able to come into oneness with yourself and with your creator.Thank [01:01:00] you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

INTRODUCTION: The Sober Gay is a podcast hosted by Dillan Gay with Aubrey Lee in Denver, Colorado. They explore a wide range of topics that relate back to a common theme: staying sober in a community that was designed to glorify alcohol.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Dillan's Journey Of Sobriety  ·      Our Opinion's On Anonymous Programs·      The Impact Of Accessibility To Alcohol On Sobriety ·      The Impact Of Community On Alcohol Use·      The Importance Of Perspective·      How Jealousy Plays A Role ·      Beware Of Routines·      FOMO·      Mental Health & Physical Health·      Sex Before And After Sobriety   CONNECT WITH DILLAN: Website: https://www.thesobergay.comInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesobergaypodcast/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesobergayYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thesobergay7432  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Dillan Gay[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Dylan Gay is a host of the Sober Gay podcast and he is here to open up about his fight in overcoming alcohol in their sobriety journey through the L LGBTQIA A plus community. Please join us today as we discuss the impact of alcohol on mental health, physical health, sexual health, and so much more.And feel free to reach out to me and let me know how alcohol has had an impact on your life. Thank [00:01:00] you so much and enjoy the show. Hello everyone. My name is Devana and I'd like to welcome you to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I got my homie Dylan Gay here with me today from the Sober Gay Podcast. And yes, gay is his real last name. He was at the start of each of his shows. How the fuck are you, my Dillan: friend? I'm wonderful. How are De'Vannon: you?I'm fantastic. Yes. Uh, We're recording this on Friday, the 9th of September. I got on my lsu. Tigers, Louisiana State University t-shirt. We start tailgating tomorrow. Ooh. Looking forward to stepping away from my Xbox and actually going out and talking to real humanoids. Yes, . . Dillan: You're out in the world again, , De'Vannon: right, and just doing a twirl.It's a great workout. Louisiana State University is a huge fucking campus, so it's a good [00:02:00]exercise day for. So so like I said, Dylan hosts the So Brigade podcast. The website is the, so brigade do com. You can catch them on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. Primarily Instagram though. And today we're gonna be talking about Dylan's sobriety journey.So on my show I've taken, you know, everybody through my whole journey of, you know, you know, not doing drugs because of the church getting on of them after I got kicked out of the church. And that my dicey relationship with like crystal Meth Anonymous and the anonymous movement as a whole to my current hallucinogenic expiration.And, you know, I go back and forth, you know, with it. Making space for everything. But today I thought it would be great to get back to talking about, you know, sobriety and the people who are, you know, still in that camp though, I've broken away from that. So talk to me about why you started the podcast, what [00:03:00] led you to it, and give me like a synopsis of your sobriety.Dillan: So I started the show in right in the beginning of the pandemic. It was in April of 2020 or May. I started, so I was about three months sober at that time, and I really just needed an outlet and something to do because I didn't foresee as anyone else did the pandemic coming and much less, you know, three months into sobriety when you know, it's a very crucial time to be not worried about the world around you and just worried about yourself.I really didn't know what to do with myself. I was trying to find some kind of queer outlets or something I could relate to. All I could really find was female ran podcast that I could really feel relatable. I didn't feel any, you know, queer love from any like sobriety. [00:04:00] Topics, or, you know, anything, podcasts.So I was like, you know, let's just make one . So I made the sober gay very early in my sobriety. It was very like, kind of weird. Like I, I had a like, thought like, you know what, if this doesn't work out, I'm only three months into it, and here I, I'm making a show about it. But it actually worked out really nicely.Creates a chronological timeline of my beginning of sobriety up until almost three years of sobriety. So it's like you can start the show in the beginning and really feel where I'm at and watch how I grow into, you know, a better version of myself. And so what started my sobriety in general? I was, Drinking a lot.10, about 10 years. I started when I was about 17, 18, really heavy drinking every and heavy drinking. I mean, like [00:05:00] every day, even when I've got strep throat or when I'm really sick, I'm making sure I still can choke down, you know, three glasses of wine or four, you know what I mean? Like it was, and I'm sure you know, you as a.Addict understands what that's like. When even your body is sick and telling you to just rest, you're like, okay, I'll rest, but as long as I have a little bit of, you know what I need in my system, I can rest. And it just, you never fully give your body a chance to rest. And I was getting tired. It was 10 years into it and it was just a charade at that point.I had, I was 28 when I got sober and. I just remember getting wine and shots every night, and that was my, every single, every, every day thing go home by myself at that point. Because once you're that far into it, I had gotten very isolated just by myself and enjoying my habit. And it was one night I was, [00:06:00] it was December 14th, I was.going home, and I was like driving past the same liquor store that I'd always stop at and I said, you know what? I should just not stop at the liquor store and just go home and give myself, give my body a rest. I could use my, my body could use a rest and I couldn't do it. I literally, it was like, A force had taken over me and my, my hands held the steering wheel and pulled into the parking lot of the liquor store and I was screaming in the car audibly, screaming out loud, stop.What are you doing? Why are we doing this? Why are we stopping here? You can just go home. I was saying this like to myself, screaming it and I parked, got outta the car and it was literally felt like I was like in a video game and couldn't control my own vessel, like, and I was just walking to the liquor.I grabbed the bottle. Grabbed my shots, paid, went home, smiled at the cashier, left and went home, and I sat down. When I, as soon as I got home, I sat down and I said, okay, you got your stuff. [00:07:00] Let's do it in silence. No stimulation. I turned everything off. I made sure I put my phone away and I just wanted to sit there and get as hammered as I could and just experience it as fully as I could with no stimulation external.And it was a very, very horrible night for me. I mean, just sitting there in silence with myself and my thoughts, it was one of the first times I had been able to just sit with my thoughts without something drowning it out, and to be all drunk. It was just miserable. I was so sad. It's just, I felt all of the sensations, I felt dizzy.I, it's like things I had never felt from the alcohol before. So the next day, I said, no, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not going to the liquor store. And that was the first day. December 15th was the first day that I had said no, and I'm just not gonna do it anymore, and I'm just gonna go straight home [00:08:00] and throw myself in a bathtub.And I've been sober since. So that was kind of what really drew me into it was just how bad it had gotten. And I, I know I didn't. Say all the bad things that happened leading up to it, but I don't really need to. It had gotten to a point where it took over my body and it was all I could care about. So that's kind of the main gist of why I stopped and why I started the podcast.De'Vannon: Right. And you know that, that, that point of when it's too much varies per person. And we're gonna talk about later on, because one of the, the things of one of your shows was asking for help and, you know, and so, so we'll talk about, you know, when does that point come, you know, where you need help. But what I, but what I wanna ask you is, How did you stop?Did you use like alcoholics Anonymous, a rational recovery, some sort of program, or do you feel like you received the Divine Deliverance? [00:09:00]Dillan: I made my own little. Thing, I guess I, I, I dabbled into Alcoholics Anonymous. I went to a couple meetings here and there. I knew that wasn't gonna be my sole outlet of getting sober, though I just didn't relate to a lot of it.I didn't like how they worded a lot of it. So I wanted different options. I read a lot of books. I read this Naked Mind from Annie Grace, that's Probably what really put the nail in the coffin for me. It really just kind of breaks down what alcohol is in a non-biased way and just kind of tells you everything, how there's.Type one drinkers, type two drinkers. People that can drink one drink and then go about their day and be done or whatever they need to do and not drink for days or months, whatever. And then there's type two, you know, like people that obsess over it, if they have just a little lick of it and can't [00:10:00]stop, won't stop until they finish and get as fucked up as they can.She kind of breaks it down into just like the hard facts and it really just kind of reset my brain into my relationship with alcohol. So definitely Annie Grace. I had to listen to a lot of podcasts. I did a lot of meditation trying to just get inside my body and out of it at the same time.That was mainly, I didn't use, I didn't go to rehab, I didn't do any of that stuff this time around. This was my third attempt at getting sober and this was the one that stuck was, and I think mainly what I had to do is because I was making the choice for myself my previous times trying to get sober, it was.External sources influencing me to get sober, whether it be an ex or friends. This was the time where I really wanted it for myself, and I think that's where it clicks you. I mean, it's hard to do anything for [00:11:00] anyone else that's remotely difficult, so you gotta really wanna do it for yourself or to be able to succeed, you know, to your fullest potential, in my opinion.Hmm. De'Vannon: Very interesting. Yeah. I'm all for the autonomous approach to self-development. I believe in independent spirituality. Say like in the Christian world, like without going to church, I believe in sobriety without the need for like a group, you know, because I feel like when. When we take it so personally and stuff like that, it seems to stick more with us.And then when we, when we're believing what we're believing or we're doing what we're doing on the path we're on, because we want to be on it and because of what's coming to us and not because of the group or some authority figure, you know, physical authority figure, you know. I think it's more permanent because [00:12:00] eventually, you know, holes get poked in the, in the images of the people we look up to or in the institutions or in the organizations.So be it the churches, the anonymous movement, you know, whatever. They start off with a glistening reputation and then it gets a little tainted over the time and then that can fuck up people's sobriety. It can fuck up people's faith, you know, in their God it can, it can make people dis distrust, you know, which is a lot of what happened to me.I ain't for the anonymous movement. It started off cute because you know, that's the best thing that I had available. But as I got more into it, I saw the holes in it, you know, I was like, how dare you tell me I should not do crystal meth and cocaine when you're chain smoking cigarettes and drinking a gallon of coffee at every week.Oh hell no,This hypocrisy will not work. . Right, right.So then this brings me to a [00:13:00] question I wanted to ask you. I know I'm not hearing anything about like drugs in your history, but just, just for shits and gigs, I wanna get your opinion on this because you know, you were able to walk into the liquor store, you know, and buy what you want and everything like that.People who are strung out on drugs and shit like that. You know, generally, unless you're like in a place where it's decriminalized, which in the United States is only Oregon, you can't just like, you know, go into the store and buy you a gram of meth, you know, or an vol of Coke. So like there, there's barriers to access.Do you feel like You know, with, with people who struggle with alcohol because the thing that is, is hurting you is legal. You know, as long as you're over 21, you can just bloody walk into the store and buy all you want and there's, nobody's gonna stop you. Do you, do you think that, that the ease of access has to something to do Dillan: with that or?Absolutely. I think it's, I mean, it's so easy to get and it's branded everywhere. You, you sit on the bus stop on [00:14:00] the corner and there's a Coors Light ad on it, and it's, you can't escape it in this, in our, the world that we've created for ourselves here. So of course I think it definitely makes it a little harder to be sober, especially in the beginning times.But I mean, when every event and everything is sponsored by a different alcohol and every event is centered around drinking, whether it be a wedding or a funeral or anything, there's gonna be alcohol provided. And it's not looked at as like weird. It's socially accepted for someone to be in grief and to take a drink to make them feel better, it's like, People encourage that.They're like, oh, they need a drink after that. Like, it, it's the only, no one would say like, oh, they need to hit a meth after that. Like, , like, it's like, so like you don't have to go around hearing like that encouragement from the world around you. It's just, it's like, Blah. . . De'Vannon: They would've [00:15:00] said that in my trap house back in my church.Dillan: Oh, just take a little hit of Matthew. De'Vannon: You'll feel better. We would say a bumper tool. Old Do Dillan: a bumper two or do De'Vannon: bumper tool do. That was ourselves, our slogan. Dillan: Oh God, . De'Vannon: So the, the, the theme of one, of, one of your shows was actually called, you know, staying Sober in a community that was designed to glorify alcohol, staying sober in a community that was designed to glorify alcohol.And I was gonna ask you about that. And I suppose that's much of what you were just saying, but by community, I was wondering if you meant the L G B T Q community or like Yeah. At large. Dillan: I think especially the, it's targeted towards the LGBTQ community. Just like any nightclub or anything, that's, that's the safe space for queer people is a nightclub that's full of alcohol and it's just always around the culture.It's just, I, I can't, every gay person or queer person has a story of a time that [00:16:00] someone, either they or someone around them was way too drunk and something bad happened. It's like, It's just rampant in the queer community. That's one of the main reasons I started the show was because I couldn't find any of the resources, like talking about it, like how bad it was in the community.And it, it's not even just alcohol, it's just drugs in general. Like queer people are looking for an escape from this world, this reality around us. And that's one of the only things people feel they can turn to is a mind altering substance to take away all the, the baggage we've been holding on for so long.De'Vannon: Right, because whenever I'm in a gay bar, I hope, you know, hopefully I don't never have to take a shit because you will not be able to get any of those stalls. Cause everyone's all the coen. Yeah. video1658291643: Seriously De'Vannon: though I'm not judging them. And if you see me, I would like a bump, but you know, , but you know, I'm not, I'm not here to judge.But it is just true, you know, no [00:17:00] matter what city I'm in. invariably, there will always be drugs in the club right now when you've been on the, you know, the bus or whatever the case may be. You know, and you've see, you know, you've seen the, the Corona. Corona signs and God forbid, taka vodka, oh Lord.Mm-hmm. , you know, if you're gonna put something in your body, at least have some decency. Girl , you know? So, so how would you center your mind, you know, if you're trying to overcome alcohol, you're seeing it branded. Everywhere you go is on every commercials, on all the billboards. People got it on their fucking t-shirts, you know, everywhere you go.How would you, where, where, where would you go to in your head? How would you overcome. Dillan: That changes for everyone. I think a lot of people get it really triggered. For me personally, I literally had to, you know, really just wake up and see what the world for, what it is, and just decide my own choices, what I wanna make.It's, it's not easy. It's not like, [00:18:00] you know, but it's also not that hard at this point that I've gotten so used to it. I just kind of had to reframe everything. I had to question everything honestly. And. Question why I believed the way I believed things were and if I even wanted to be that way anymore.Yeah. And like I really had to just, you know, listen to what I felt and not what everyone else was telling me to feel. De'Vannon: I couldn't have said it better myself. I got to a point in reevaluating my stance on like religion and churches and drugs, and I just told the Lord. I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna take my life at this point and just kind of throw it all in the trash because the other people's voices are too enmeshed in my conscious and subconscious, and you use the word that we used in hyp hypnosis as I'm a train hypnotist as well, you use a reframe.You know, we're always reframing. Reframing, reframing, you know, and or replacing depending on the situation. But it's, you know, there's a [00:19:00] lot of reformation that has to happen. And, and I tell God like, you know what? This, this is just so clouded in my head, so let's just toss it all out and I'm gonna act like I'm a baby just being born and I'm gonna approach a life brand new.And you, yes, communicate with me what you do and don't want because I don't trust the other people cuz they had shady motive. Dillan: Right. And I like the reframing because you can't get rid of anything. You can't get rid of. A lot of people think that, and I, I'm saying this personally, I thought I could get rid of my anger.I thought I could get rid of my sadness. You can't get rid of it. You have to learn to reframe it and learn to live with it and learn to move it into a, a transfer of energy into another part of your body and make it better. It's not always about getting rid of everything and just forgetting about it, expelling it.It's not there. I don't believe it. It's not, it's not the inside of me anymore. Therefore it's gone. It's not, I don't think it's like that. It's, you really have to just rework it in your brain and make it [00:20:00] into a space that's comfortable for you to be okay with it. Cuz I mean, you don't have to love everything about yourself, but it's good to be okay with it.So you're talking De'Vannon: about a perspective shift. Dillan: Yeah, just everything. When I see all those ads for alcohol, I don't even see them anymore. Honestly. I've learned to just see that as like, ugh, garbage. It's like spam mail. You don't read through every single spam mail like title. It's like, nah. You just know. You see it instantly and you're like, that's spam.I don't need it. De'Vannon: You might wanna right, you might wanna look into training as a hypnotherapist is what you, is what you're talking about doing is the exact sort of stuff I learned in school. Oh, really? . , Dillan: right? Intuition. , De'Vannon: yeah. Like reframing, replacing like, so, so someone comes with like, It comes to us for a hypnosis to work on, say, smoker cessation.They don't wanna smoke anymore. We're not gonna like try to take the habit. We're gonna like maybe replace that with something else. And I like, maybe when they think about smoking, maybe they'll kind of pinch their fingers together or maybe they'll, [00:21:00] you know, or maybe reach for, transfer the energy right now.Right. Yeah. You're taking that and you're, cause it looks like a baby. If they, they want the little suckle thing, you don't take it from them. You have to take that and give them something else. Mm-hmm. , you know, Absolutely. So, and maybe look into that. I went to H M I, the Hypnosis Motivation Institute out in Tarzana, California, that they have great online courses.They were the first accredited hyp hypnotherapy school in the United States. They're not paying me to promote, to recruit people or nothing like that, but you seem to have the gift . So Dillan: thank you. Thank you very much. I'm gonna, I'll definitely look into that cuz it's, I've always, I'm always looking into different cool mediums That's very up De'Vannon: my alley.Yeah. And that's all about the mind and subconscious and neurolinguistic programming and you know, and how we're affected by things without realizing it, you know, and everything like that. And, you know, it's, it's quite fascinating. It helped me to reframe anger and stuff that I used to hold, like towards my boyfriend and different people, you know?And I began to look at it from a [00:22:00] different perspective and I was able to gain a great amount of peace. , you Dillan: know, Yeah, it's just long. It's just all that perspective, perspective shift. It's just like you can either wake up and see it as like, oh, I missed the bus. I did this went wrong, this went wrong. Or you can see it as like, oh, I'm getting an opportunity to walk a little slower to work today.And they'll understand I'll be late. And like just reframing everything, just totally changes. Could change anything about yourself. But I guess that's what you were talking about with hypnotherapy, cuz that's literally what it's for, is to help change parts of yourself, , mm-hmm. De'Vannon: and getting through all the noise in the head and the subconscious.My favorite thing that I've reframed lately was like, so when I was in the military, you know, they always taught me to move fast, fast, fast, fast, fast. If you're 15 minutes, Early than you're really late, you know? Right. Thing. Everything's over the top. You're better than than normal civilians. You know, you don't wanna be like that.And you know, and I got outta the military like 20 years ago and I just had this [00:23:00] reformation like the other week, you know, or maybe even the other day. And I then I thought to myself, you know what, because when you get outta the military, you get outta there judging society because they've taught us that we're better than everyone else.But they don't, they don't. Deprogram our military minds when they throw us back out into society. So then, then I'm thinking, you suck cuz you're slow and you're late. And the shit's not that big a deal. It's a form of P T S D that many of us get outta the military with unfortunately, it seems. Mm-hmm. So I thought to myself maybe, maybe it's not that people are slow.Maybe I'm moving too damn fast. Dillan: Right. Right. So you just have to like stop and reframe it. You're like, everyone's not going so slow. Yeah. I'm just in hyper De'Vannon: speed. . Yeah. Maybe I sneak to slow the fuck down. And I'm a Sagittarius though. It's hard for me to dial it Dillan: back. Oh yeah. SA is, you guys are always wanting to go explore and go and go.Go. , De'Vannon: but it's unrealistic, you know? And so I was like, you know what, maybe VA slowed down. You know, I have my times where I can go fast, but not [00:24:00] all the time, the van. And so that, as simple as that may seem, I've never told myself that too much before. Mm-hmm. , you know, but little one-liners like that can really redirect us.Absolutely. So another topic of one of your shows you were talking about like jealousy and anger at people who can still drink. Mm, so this, so this bacon, so like a bitterness. When somebody decides that, Hey, for me, it's coming too far and I wanna stop drinking. Now I'm at this party, and that bitch over there has that cosmo that I would love to have.Fuck her. Mm-hmm. , you know, how do you deal Dillan: with that there? Yeah, mine, mine is red wine. Any Cabernets or anything? I was always very, you know, I'm from the East Coast, very like it's very New York City to have a glass of red wine in your hand, you know, like right . So that one is like, that one still kind of gets to me.Just, I just miss that elegance in the class and you just, [00:25:00] it just makes you personify this new feeling. And it's not even the drink that was doing it. It was literally just the glass with the red liquid inside of it that I was holding that made me feel that, you know, fanciness, . But yeah, it does suck seeing other people be able to enjoy it and, I'm like, oh, I've done all this work on myself.I've done all this therapy. I should be able to go have a drink now. Right? Eh, like I tell myself that sometimes and I'm like, eh, maybe not , but it does suck to see other people enjoy it. And I just know I can't ever get to that level again. De'Vannon: Right now, don't remember it was you and, and y'all, Dylan as a co-host, his, his name's Aubery one of you mentioned.how you go to weddings and parties and stuff like that and that you're finding that you're not actually the only sober person. And so, so it seems like, it sounds, it feels really lonely at first, but you're finding that you're actually, you're not the only sober gay running [00:26:00] around. Dillan: Right. And I mean, the first wedding I went to, I had a lot of fun, but I left early cuz I just got so anxious and.Just uneasy. But I went to a, a wedding after that and it was much easier. I think I had to really just like get back into the groove of it. But the first one I went to after getting sober was definitely hard. I, you know, seeing everyone dance and let loose and, you know, run back to their table and take a little shot or whatever to loosen them up a little more to go on the dance floor.And I was like, oh, I, I'm just, I, they're just expecting me to just go on the dance floor, like there's no inebriation in my system. Like they're just expecting me to go out there and dance. I just couldn't do it. I had to leave. . But the wedding after that, I had, you know, the second one I went to after that in sobriety, I, I kind of felt like I saw everyone getting up.I, it was the same thing. I saw everyone getting up and starting to get on the dance floor and I was like, had that feeling of like, okay, am I gonna do what I did last time? And just like, let this overwhelm me until the point of [00:27:00] where I just gotta go. Or I could just take that energy and just go dance.And I went and danced and I had a great time. And so I guess that was brings us back to how you can reframe things. , De'Vannon: I hope you popped your pussies. Aveoli. . . I did. Clearly left burn marks on the dance floor. For Dillan: real though. I, I'm pretty sure I did. I think they had to repaint the venue. Hell De'Vannon: yeah. Fuck.That's shit all the way. So, so another one that you talked about was like routines that you had in your life, like before drinking and after drinking. And so it sounds like, do you think like when you were into the drinking that maybe subconsciously or maybe intentionally that you rearranged your life so that you would always have access to the drink?Or talk to me about these routines. Dillan: I think the routines start at least for me, the routines started later in my drinking. [00:28:00]Career. In the beginning it was very just, you know, drink to have fun and it turns into drinking every night. You kind of find a way to drink every night when you're younger.You can find a party anywhere, the round kids your age. But once I get to like 25, 26 years old, it really turned into, okay, so-and-so's busy. Oh, so-and-so's busy. I'm just gonna go, you know, drink by myself at my house and that. You know that anytime you do anything regularly in your home, that creates a routine.And so, you know, drinking just a little bit to calm my nerves, turns into drinking to fall asleep and making sure that I'm blacked out by 10:00 PM if I have to get up early the next day. Or if I, you know, if I have to wake up at like 4:00 AM for a flight, I gotta make sure I get blacked out by like 7:00 PM so I'm like knocked out by eight.It's like those. Shifts in my routine that I was centering around. Just drinking and just getting my fix was totally [00:29:00] disrupting everything else in my life, but it didn't matter to me. As long as I was able to get my fix, then I could, you know, solve every other problem. But it was always get drunk first and then, you know, I'll deal with that problem after I get a little buzz.But the, the catch 22 of that is you get a little buzz. You don't care. So you start to put off everything and you know, next thing you know, your water gets shut off every other month because you're not, you're forgetting to pay the bill here and there. And my electric was getting shut off a lot. Not because I didn't have the money, but because I wasn't remembering to pay the bill.And, or I would see the notice saying it was late. And I'm like, I don't feel like dealing with that right now. I, I still have some more time before they'll actually shut me off. And it's like the stupidest things that like you don't think about when you have a clear head. And you just are living, it's, you're so clouded when you get to that point where you're making those decisions where it's like, I got, I, I, I can, I can pay for the light bill right now, but it's, I'm too wasted or I'm not drunk enough to deal with it, and then I'm getting too drunk to [00:30:00] even deal with the website.So it's like, it's just get, everything's getting pushed off. So I was just pushing off everything for years and years and years and years, and. De'Vannon: So it sounds like this routine crept up on you before you realized it. Dillan: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Good way to say it. It's like if you don't, you don't. I wasn't just like one day like, okay, I'm gonna start my drinking here.It was like all of that stuff kind of happened organically. It was like, it just happens naturally. It's almost like the way you think, like, oh, I need to go to sleep now to get my, if I wanna get six hours of sleep, like that was my way of thinking. But for drinking, Like, I gotta start drinking now so I could be drunk by this time.And it, it's become second nature. I, but like you said, it was like, I didn't go into it with the intent of making these schedules for myself. It just happened. De'Vannon: It just happened. Well, I'm glad it not happened for you. . Dillan: Me too. De'Vannon: Oh, and I love the [00:31:00] transparency of your podcast. And I feel like it's so beneficial to people who are struggling with alcohol because they will not feel alone.There's so much feelings of isolation in this world. You know? That's why I do what I do too, to be super transparent because it's, it's so not true because the people around us are going through so much. It's just like, When I was younger, we were too busy partying and doing all the drugs and being cute and trying to see how skinny we can get.Nobody was really talking about real life issues and stuff like that. And so then when real life problems and issues happened to me, I was thinking I was the only one. And really that wasn't true. Right? So, you know, I gotta open my mouth for more than sucking dick, y'all. We have, we have to do better.Dillan: better. Well, I'm very happy that you're using a good platform for good in spreading your story as well. De'Vannon: Yes. And so, So we, so you talked about FOMO in one of your shows, y'all, and that's fear of [00:32:00] missing out. So, so when you start, it sounds like when you first started the sober journey, maybe you thought that there were some places you wouldn't have been able to go anymore, that you think you might lose some friends.You know, what, what did you think you might miss out on? Dillan: I, my biggest thing was like like weddings. I, like I talked about before, that was like, I didn't know how to like go to a wedding or anything like that. . And like, just like the fear of missing out of just going to, you know, see friends at clubs and bars and things like that because it is such a popular destination for socialization is to just go and drink.So I was, you know, unfortunately I did lose a lot of friends just because that's wasn't my main topic of interest anymore. So I, I did miss out on a lot, but at, in the same time, I think I gained, you know, more about myself learning. I tried not to polarize everything as such good and bad. I didn't think of it as like a bad thing.It's [00:33:00] just, it is what it is. But it does, you know, the fear of missing out is still there. But that's always just gonna be like, humans are curious by nature. You know, we're always gonna be like, what could have been if I did this? Or if I was still drinking, where would I be? Would I be, you know, living my life to the extent and doing all the things that I fear I'm missing out of because I'm not drinking?And then I kind of stop thinking about it , when I frame it that. Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: How did it feel to lose friends that you feel hurt, betrayed, relieved Dillan: Kind of a mixture of all of that. It's in the beginning, you're like you kind of think like, everyone's gonna support me on my journey. All my, you know, but I had all, a lot of.Drunk friends like they were, that's, you know, that's what they did. And a lot of them did support me and do, and you know, most of them did openly say like, you're doing the right thing. This is good for you. [00:34:00] But you know, naturally, just because we're not hanging out, just kind of. You know, disappear and they fade away.And then you kind of get that feeling of like a little bit afterwards you're, you're getting angry cuz you're like, well damn I haven't talked to that person in two months and I bet you, I bet you damn wells cuz I'm not drinking. And then you start to get that feeling. And that does give you a sense of like, feeling betrayed by people you once trusted.But I mean, that's like you said. Then you move on kind of into the next phase and you're like, okay, you know what? I'm relieved. This is for the best. You know, I'm gonna do me, I can, you know, take this time to focus on me and not worry about them. I don't like to think of it as, I lost a lot of friends though, because they're still there.You know, social media, you don't really lose anyone nowadays. They're still there. I just, you know, You know, change the energy of the friendship. It's just, you know, it's online now. . [00:35:00]De'Vannon: Okay. Hey, I guess Dillan: you reframed It does suck though. Yeah, it does suck though. I'm not, I'm not trying to sugarcoat it too much.It, I mean, but it's, it's life. Say Lavie, you know, it goes on, you just have to look at it that way and not as like, oh, I lost everyone. It's like, ah, fresh start. It's a new De'Vannon: beginning forever. Spring baby. Forever spring. Dillan: Mm-hmm. . Absolutely. Let's talk De'Vannon: about sex, baby. Oh lord. Okay. No hole in the hole. . And so, so on your show, you were mentioning, like you were paralleling the difference between like drunk sex, not drunk sex.Mm-hmm. you feel like there's a, a change in, in, like in your sex life for, for, for the better or worse since you stopped drinking? Did, was there a difference for you? Dillan: Well, yeah, I think, well, towards the end of my drinking I was actually having issues with [00:36:00] my sex life, well, my sex drive I was having issues with.I couldn't, you know, Even get hard really, cuz I was just, I was drunk too much. It was just like I couldn't do it right. And I couldn't hold an erection. So that was started, that was another red flag of just what was wrong. And I was, I couldn't control my bladder. I was peeing the bed all the time.It was, and so getting into being sober and starting to like, regain control of my body. Is great and then it all comes with, you know, being aligned and aligning yourself again after you get sober. Cuz you can't just get sober and expect everything to fall into place. You gotta do the work and, you know, I had to literally align my, my sexual shocker and get it, you know, back into the place it's supposed to be.And. Not treat sex the way I was treating it in the past and, you know, thinking like, oh, I had to be, you know, drunk to like even ex, you know, have fun or be good at it, or at least be a little [00:37:00]tipsy to be the right partner. You just experienced it a different way. I had a lot of resentment towards sex when I got sober, cuz of how I had been viewing sex for so long that once I got sober and saw it for what it was and saw it as a beautiful act, you know, I treated it a lot differently and a lot more sacred than I was before.And just, you know, I just treated my whole, the whole energy was more sacred to me. I guess that was what I'm trying to say. It is great though. It's much, it's much better experience for me now that I'm more in tune with it than before where it's kind of just like a wham bam. Thank you ma'am. Now I feel like you know, when I experience it now it's, you know, very much a spiritual experience and fully engaging all of my body into this act, if that makes sense.De'Vannon: Yeah. All of your body, all your breathing, all of your awareness, all of your [00:38:00]consciousness, Dillan: yes. Yeah. I'm not like putting my consciousness somewhere else and putting my body on autopilot. It's like, you know, I'm in my body experiencing it.De'Vannon: Okay. I'm here for the conscious, conscious love making and sexual explorations and experiences and Dillan: things. Right, right. There was a time though I was celibate for a long, long, long, long time. like years because of, I just couldn't do it. I didn't want to, and I, you know, just body image issues at the time.That's a whole other topic, but the, it was part of the drinking as well. De'Vannon: The celibacy came after you began to get sober, or was it during Dillan: the drinking? It was during it all kind of blended together towards the end of the alcohol and the beginning of sobriety that I was pretty celibate and abstaining from relationships and sex, not on purpose.It just kind of was happening. I didn't really, I wasn't like , I just wasn't seeking [00:39:00] it. De'Vannon: I've been through that before. You know, Dillan: you have to be selfish every once in a while and just be like, you know what? I can't do anything . I just, I just don't wanna do anything with anyone. I just want to focus on me. De'Vannon: I don't view that as selfish.I view that as more like self-sacrificial. Hmm. Dillan: Interesting. Oh, De'Vannon: I view it as great discipline and great restraint because you know, it's so easy to go get a piece of ass somewhere these days. You can order it like, like a, like an Uber or Lyft or some shit. You just open an app and order it and the ass will come through the door like you don't Dillan: evenBut see, I don't know. You say it, it's like, it's like, I guess we just see it differently when you say restraint, I never really see myself having to like restrain or wanting to like restrain myself from. Going, I get I, but I've never was like that. Even when I was a drinker, I was never really like promiscuous or like wanting to like seek out another person's comfort, which I think goes a lot to like child trauma history.But that's a whole nother topic as [00:40:00] well.De'Vannon: what happened in video1658291643: yourDillan: childhood? , oh God. Very, We'll, just briefly, just religious parents, abusive, physically, emotionally abusive that kind of deal. Southern Baptist. Ooh just, yeah, that kind of you Yeah. You get it.De'Vannon: Jesus Christ on the throne. One of my greatest struggles is I'm very like, Like God, Jesus Christ, holy Ghost. But I'm very like anti-church and Antio Nation. Dillan: Absolutely. I deal De'Vannon: with So you too. Yeah. Yeah. I deal with so many people who have been on the receiving end of like religious and church trauma, like I was too.And it is so hard. Like they, they [00:41:00] carry so much pain and I've once carried it too. It's so hard to get them to. To be able to have a conversation or to think about God without it being like a searing pain in their chest. Yeah. You Dillan: know, they have an image of a God that's just, that they're so ingrained in their brain that they can't hear anymore attributes to God because they just don't believe it.It's not there. De'Vannon: Right. So the physical people who, who once represented God to them, hurt them, lie to them, misinformed them, you know? But when you're new in the faith, that's what you have. You know, as you grow, then you begin to understand, just like with any sort of educational growth, you know, I don't actually need the professor anymore.I, I can do this shit myself. Yeah, thanks bitch. Juices, , but you know, But churches aren't like that. They, they, they, they treat you like you gotta stay there and constantly learn from, from that pastor forever for the rest of your life. And I'm all like, that doesn't make any sense. [00:42:00] Church is a school. You're going there to fucking learn.Why Fuck can't I graduate, bitch. Dillan: Right. Oh, wow. That's such a good way to say that. De'Vannon: You know, because you have an agenda, then you need the money. You have, like all the shit you got going on. But, you know, in the, in the Bible even says that there comes a point that you will have need that no man teach you.But they don't teach that in churches, you know? Right. Dillan: And so, but I just feel bad for the Bible. It's been so pick and choose from that. It is just, it's so, it's a book that's used against itself. It's literally just so picked and choosed in different religions. Like it's hard. De'Vannon: I don't wanna encourage my audience and everyone listen like I always do.You know if it's, fuck the church, fuck the church, but don't be like, fuck God. You know? I made that, yeah, I made that mistake when I got kicked outta Lakewood Church for not being straightened. I went through like about five or six years of just silence in between me and heaven because I wasn't as mature spiritually as I thought I was, and I couldn't separate the bad thing.[00:43:00] Joel Osteen and his church did to me. I couldn't separate that from God, you know? And so I really, really don't want people to fall into that trap because it was just a very bitter way for me to be living. And it did not serve me at all. . Mm-hmm. , right? Not all. You know, they're gone on writing more books and selling more arenas than making more millions, and I'm bitter and pissed off at them and, you know, using drugs to numb the pain, not even realizing it.So, mm. So let's talk about hiding drinking, because one of your shows, you talked about that. Now I know what it's like to have a bunch of syringes and pipes and shit that I don't want bitches to find, you know, tucked away or whatever the case may be, . But you know, you have, you know, it's not uncommon to go in someone's house and all the bottles are displayed on a beautiful bar, you know?Was there a point that you felt like you had to hide your drinking? If so, why and how did you do it? Dillan: The, I, I didn't hide it most of the time. I've always been very proud of myself and [00:44:00]proud person in general, but there was times where I did notice myself starting to hide it. I had a, a group of, or a couple friends live with me for one point when they were in the middle of buying a house, and this is probably like eight, nine years ago.And this is probably the first time that anyone had ever, ever been on the inside of my. Because I know I've been, I was single for so long and this was someone coming into and, you know, seeing my life and. You know, start, that's whenever the, the next day they're like, oh, we noticed that you got home last night at like midnight, but there's like an empty wine bottle in the f in the trash and like two empty beer cans.Like, did you have a little party? Like, what happened? And I was like, Oh no, . I just, you know, got off work and came home and drank a bottle of wine and two beers, like like, so then the next night I'm like, fuck these people in my fucking house. And I'm like hiding, like stashing bottles away. And I'm like, [00:45:00] to dare them.I just wanted to come home at midnight and have a fucking drink and go to sleep. And now they're judging me in my house. So there , there was a time I started hiding it. Whenever I was, you know, living with other people and they actually got to be on the inside. And then I start to see the, you know, public opinion of what I'm doing is not exactly normalDe'Vannon: Oh, I would've read them for Phil. I'm like, no, bitch, we're not doing that. We are not doing that. Dillan: They were, they were actually the ones that when we were talking about earlier external sources, you know, trying to influence you to go get help, they were actually some of the people that after living with me for a couple months, that they wanted me to go get help.And it was a very unsuccessful attempt with me and getting professional help to stop drinking . De'Vannon: No, everybody's gotta make those decisions on their own. Mm-hmm. you know, good counselors, good therapists and mental health therapists [00:46:00] always are asking, you know, well, what do you want to do? You know, what is your, what is, you know, how do you wanna proceed?You know, so that you, so that the person always has ownership of whatever direction the mistakes, friends and families make when you're dealing with people. You might consider to be an addict or an alcoholic. I hate those terms, you know, to my, yeah, I same. There's someone in your opinion, who does it more than they should, you know, trying to rush them into rehab and into this and into that, because you feel like they should, first of all, I think it's inherently selfish.Mm-hmm. And then it's not gonna work. And it's selfish because the family member or friend are doing it because they want to feel better. You know, they can't stand to see what we're going through. They want that pain to go away. So let's hurry up and show you into one of these treatment facilities and what the fuck Dillan: ever.That's the only, honestly, just drives a little like wedge between the two. From the, from the person who's using perspective, at least in my personal experience, it kind of [00:47:00] creates like some animosity. To that person after it's over, especially if it wasn't successful . It's like, okay, like what are you trying to interfere with in my life?I'm a freaking adult and you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . . De'Vannon: So friends and families are people who, by your assessment, you think are doing too much and they may be, the only thing you can do is just be there. Just be like, I'm here if you need anything. You don't have to go support the habits and bring them their meth or their beer or whatever, but the judgment ain't gonna work.it's, I'm gonna work. Dillan: Absolutely not. De'Vannon: Okay. So then as I mentioned earlier, I'll circle back around to, to asking for help. , and I know it's different for everybody, but talk to me about how do we know when it's too much? Is there some sort of sign? Is it an inner voice? Do we clearly, if you can't hold an erection and you're, and you're pissing in the bed, that might be an indication, right?With alcohol, I know [00:48:00] it can like fuck with your blood pressure too, which can also fuck with an erection. So what, what, what do you, what are your thoughts on asking for help and when to know when to do? Dillan: I think for, just for anyone, it, it's just so, it's such a unique journey that if you're thinking if I should ask for help, it's probably time to ask for help.I mean, when I was Googling free rehab, no insurance, Like gay, I can't stop drinking queer rehab, like that, that when you start Googling stuff like that, that's when you probably should start finding help and seeking help. Likeand I was like searching things like I, like I would type in the Google search bar, Reddit, so I'd get my Reddit results. Reddit. Drinking every day. No erection, peeing, bed. People like me, . . De'Vannon: Okay. Dillan: No, there's no one like that. I can't find that anyone's talking about that. Yeah. No. [00:49:00]Okay. Probably an issue. De'Vannon: So then maybe this is like your subconscious, maybe like your body reaching.you know, in a way cuz like the fingers are doing the typing and the mind's doing the working, but it hasn't yet clicked that the time for help has come somehow. Yeah. Dillan: I it's just, like I said, it's very personal. There was plenty of times where I wanted to do something about it and I didn't truly in my heart think I could.I think whenever I gave myself my own confidence, I faked it. I just, you know, fake it till you make it, honestly works. Some with manifestation. I said, you know, I got this. I'm the shit I'm, and that helps me. That helped me a lot, just like not talking so down upon myself and telling myself, oh, but you need it, but you can't do without this.You can't do without this. And instead just being like, you got this. You're fine. You're great. You're doing perfect. You're able to, just reframing the way I would talk to myself in my, the little voice in my head. [00:50:00] Just, you know, telling him to stop saying mean things and just start saying only nice things.And try and just make it a little better in my head and clear out the cobwebs a little bit. I think that helped a. De'Vannon: Whatever you can do. And another thing that will help people a lot is listening to the Silver Gay Podcast, . Dillan: Yes, please. . God. De'Vannon: God knows we need alternatives to to the anonymous movement.It's okay. So then the last thing we wanna talk about we'll, and then on a super positive note, like some silver celebrities you live, look up to. Dillan: Ooh, who I love RuPaul. I mean, RuPaul, I've not a, I love RuPaul's show. He used to have a show a podcast called What's the Tea? And I used to love listening to him talk about his sobriety and like the way he, he taught me one of my favorite, you know, comebacks to when someone offers me a drink now.So when someone offers me like, Hey, can I [00:51:00] get you a drink? Instead of going to this long, like, oh, I'm sober. Cuz who the fuck wants to hear that when they're trying to have a good time? I just say, oh, I've had enough. Thank. That's it. That doesn't go into anything. I don't have to explain anything. I don't have to go anywhere with it.I've had enough. Thank you. And like I just, RuPaul is one of my favorite sober celebs by far. And not even that like transparent about, he doesn't even really talk about being sober as like his main thing. But he's been sober over 20, 25 years now, I think. Yeah, I De'Vannon: didn't know that. But that comeback is, is like It is a polarizing statement and it's one that works in your favor because if someone were to try to overcome that statement, it would be somebody who's disrespecting your boundaries.Dillan: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And then, or they could just take it as a joke and let, but yes, you're right. It's a polarizing statement in that, in that sense that you can't, you can't have anything bad to say to it or else you're gonna be the bad guy. , right?[00:52:00]De'Vannon: absolutely. So I love that. I love everything about that. Dillan: Oh, thanks. I've had enough . No further explanation De'Vannon: right now. That enough may have been 20 years ago that I've had enough, but you don't need to know all that . Dillan: Yeah, yeah, right.De'Vannon: Okay, so, so you see people, even the rich and famous are celebrities. You know, a lot of times in Hollywood, you know, you know, they catch a bad rap, you know? when we see in God bless her, you know, like Ms. Lindsay Lohan or, you know, certain, certain people,you know, but not everybody, you know, in, in, in Hollywood is on like their fifth and 10th dui. You know, some people actually don't do drugs and you know, and you see a lot of movies like Studio 54. , the Andy Warhol diaries, you know, whatever it is that you wanna watch. [00:53:00] And there's always a lot of drugs and, and alcohol the way Hollywood is glamorized, you know, but not everybody, even on the big screen drinks or takes drugs.Dillan: Right. And it's, there's a lot of people don't even realize that I made a sh we made an episode going through all of the people that were sober and I can't remember a lot of the names off the top of my head right now for some reason. Just cause I'm not, I don't really, I'm not very good versed on a lot of.Unless I care about them . But there are so many, there are so many out there that don't drink or do anything and they still just get their job done. . De'Vannon: That's not to say they're not doing everyone now, honey. Right, right. talking about getting, getting your freak on . Holly, we, Holly. Weird . Okay. There's a lot of sex in Hollywood.Hell's yes. Okay. So that wraps up our delicious discussion here, but I'll let you go ahead and have the last word [00:54:00] of wisdom, whatever you'd like to say to this globe. Dillan: Mm. Oh my goodness. Wow. I think my last word of wisdom that I would just like to share with the world is to always think for yourself and question any feelings that you don't feel are right.And that can work with anything . De'Vannon: Amen and amen. Y'all's name is Dylan Gay from the Sober Gay Podcast. The website is the sober gay.com. You can find them at that website on Facebook, YouTube, but primarily Instagram. I look forward to having Dylan back on the show. Thank you so much for coming on today.Have a rocking weekend, my friend. Dillan: Thank you. You too. Thanks for having me.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at [00:55:00] SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at Davanon SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

INTRODUCTION: Ciahnan is the author of two novels, the award-winning A Lifetime of Men (Propertius Press, 2020), and the critically acclaimed Blood at the Root (Atmosphere Press, 2021). He holds Masters degrees from the University of Chicago and Stony Brook University, and a PhD in Comparative Literature from the University at Buffalo. Both his creative work and his scholarly research explore systemic inequality and the ways in which discourse on race and gender shape the horizons of individual and social life.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      A Look Into “Blood At The Root”·      Critical Race Theory·      How Homeless Veterans Are Represented·      Respect For Women ·      The Implications Of Work/Life Balance·      The Black Wall Street/Tulsa Race Massacre ·      Shootings·      Race Wars Between Blacks & Hispanics ·      Ciahnan's Philanthropy ·      Advice For Aspiring Writers  CONNECT WITH CIAHNAN: Website: https://www.ciahnandarrell.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ciahnan-darrell/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CiahnanQuinnDarrellInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/ciahnan_quinn/Twitter: https://twitter.com/CiahnanQuinn  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Ciahnan Darrell[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Blood at the root is a coming of age take on critical race theory among other poignant issues. And Ciahnan Darrell is the amazing individual who has brought this great word to us. Please join us as we discuss how Canaan's contributions to literature are influenced by racism, respect for homeless veterans, respect for women, and so much more.Canan is an author with a huge heart and at the center of his heart and [00:01:00] his workis the spirit. Of this quote from James Baldwin, which says that not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. Let's face some tough shit together.Hello, are you delicious? Delectable delights out there and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. My name is Devon, and I'm your host, and I have with me the very, very soulful and intuitive Darrel. He's an author and a writer, and a a scholar on many fronts. How are you today, my friend? Ciahnan: I'm doing well.I'm excited to be here and you know, ready to really get into it, you know, the depth of things. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: So we, we, we shall go meaningfully deep today. [00:02:00] Okay. Now you've got two books that we're, we're gonna talk about Blood at the Root. Your first one was called A Lifetime of Men. Can you give us just like a little synopsis of what that one was about?A lifetime of men? Yeah. I'd love to thank you. Ciahnan: It's about three generations of women fighting against a society that wants to take their autonomy away from them, that wants to tell them how they can live, how they can dress, how they can talk. The first one is contemp with the Great Depression, and then it goes on to the present.Just the inspiration real quick for this was the fact that I grew up, I was raised by women you know, my aunts, my grandmother, and my mother, they're all very strong, all very intelligent. And so I knew no different. And then I went away to college and I heard the word feminists and I like, I didn't really know it.I'd heard it, but I didn't know what it meant. So I. And someone said, well, it's someone who believes all these d [00:03:00] derogatory things about women that I was scandalized. Like, they better not say that around my grandmother. She'll cut 'em . You know, I was, you know, I, I was lucky. I was blessed to have these women in my life, and so I guess, You know, part of the, the subject matter of the book is a tribute to them.De'Vannon: You know what? There's nothing wrong with that. I was raised by like three women too. Cuz God knows the men in my life. I did not want to be like, you know, like pretty much every male in my family either hits women. or cheat son or like, or a combination of the two. And so I think the Lord really did me a mercy by letting me be the gay one , you know, who was more drawn to the females.You know, I would rather this life than to be like they are on any fucking day of the week. So that gave you that view, you know, from the, from the female perspective. Now the book, blood at the Root. talks a lot [00:04:00] about like racial issues and things like that, so people watching and listening, you know you know, as you know, as you've stated in like, different research I've done might go, what does white boy know about that?You know, . But I'm gonna tell y'all, I'm gonna tell y'all from, from my days in the Air Force to my days on the streets selling dope in Houston, Texas, there are a lot of white boys out there. Who are very, very soulful and really, really feel what's going the struggles of like ethnic people. I'm not talking about like white guilt.I'm talking about like they just identify with more of a diversity of racists than you might. Think the type of guys I used to hang out with didn't hang out with really white people. They would rather hang out with, with the folk and things like that, and I appreciate. The sympathizers and the empathizes and the [00:05:00] diversity.God has given us some, all the way back in the slave days, not every white person was pro-slavery. You know, we had the defectors that would come and help the black people and stuff like that. And so I believe it's a way of God balancing things out. If someone's more proponent of the universe, you could say it's the universe bringing.Or whatever the fuck. And so give us like, like a brief over like rundown of blood at the root and what it means to you. Ciahnan: Okay. Well, I, I have studied critical race theory and my dissertation was on racialized and gendered violence in South Africa. So at least the, the, the bones of the theory are familiar to me.When it comes to BLI at the. I think it's important to say that it began not in a desire to say what race is cause that's not my place. It began by looking at this society in which I live and seeing all these false narratives [00:06:00] and, excuse me, their narratives that crushed people, that denigrated them that them and James Baldwin was writing about this, you know, in, in the fifties and sixties and he basically said, you.How dare you try and reduce me to my suffering. How dare you try and reduce me to. You know, to my the racism I've experienced. And so what I did is I looked at these narratives and I tried to pick out false narratives, and then I don't think with a story you can disprove it because it's a story, it doesn't follow a logical argument.But what you can do is you can tell other stories, stories that like, take, you know, take. The pin and prick the balloons of, of those those stories, stories to problematize them so that you're not getting that collapse collapsing of all black people into one identity or you're not getting that collapsing of all women into [00:07:00] subordinates, to victims to play things of men.And so what I tried to do, part of the reason I have 33 different characters in here is cuz I didn't want anybody to be able to point to one. And say this is what he believes. Because this isn't about belief beyond the fact that I think that what is is sick. I think that the narratives that we as a society have internalized and project, you know, onto ourselves are sick.So, you know, again, the idea is, is to just make it impossible to take these dominant narratives, these violent narratives, and take them as gospel. De'Vannon: Hmm. Well that's the gospel right there. Have I ever heard it y'all? Hallelujah. Tabernacle and praise. And so like, like the man said, yo, the book is broken down in the 33.Is there, like, you might call 'em like little short stories and things like that and, and there's like humor drizzled, I would say throughout [00:08:00] these these. Excerpts or little snippets called Giggle House, which I think are meant to like maybe lighten the mood as you're going through it, but they can get a little dark too.I, this is a very dark read . It's dark and I'm here for the darkness. Especially as we get this close to Halloween. So delicious. But you know, the darkness though is true. You know, it's not, You know, it's like fictional, but it's also, it's a lot of truth to it too. And so you mentioned how Mr. Baldon was talking about not being reduced to his struggles.So I'm gonna cut right over to my favorite story, the one that stood out to me, which in within the book is called Voices. Okay. Okay, so I'm gonna read a little excerpt if I may. Actually, I have several excerpts that I, that I might read. I'm channeling my inner Bugs Bunny right now. So this first, this first Ex from Voices, it says, He drank when he [00:09:00] could malt liquor or skunked beer or ethyl alcohol until he blacked out.He smoked or ate or snorted or shot whatever drugs he came across with communal pins or razor blades or jagged edged light bulbs. Turned crack pipes bent on annihilation if possible, oblivion at a minimum. This story here was talking about a homeless person. Who, but I like abandoned his family. I wanna know how, how were you able to tap into this sort of reality?Because the writing speaks like somebody who was homeless before. Have you been homeless before? Ciahnan: No, but I, I I worked as a chaplain in a VA hospital. and over 50% of the country's homeless population are veterans. So I would get a lot of people that would come in and it was the most heartbreaking thing [00:10:00] because there's a limit.I think it was 60 days, it might've only been 30. So you get these people who are hooked on drugs. You know, out of their mind, their body's crashing. They come to the VA hospital, they get in the alcohol program. They get to have three meals a day in a warm place to sleep for, you know, the 30 to 60 days.And then they go right back out and the cycle starts again. And I say this not, I'm not trying to judge them. I'm just trying to say, watching them. , they took so much pain upon themselves. And some, some soldiers were more transparent and others were less transparent about the reasons why they, they were living the way they did.But, you know, what it all come, came down to is that, you know, they didn't have in anyone in their life, To love them. And I know love sounds like such a hokey word, but you know, I, I, I think when you're not talking necessarily about the hearts and flowers love, but you're talking about that, okay, I'm [00:11:00] gonna look you in the eye.I'm gonna listen and let you tell me who you are and what you need, and then I'm going to respond to you. And you know, either they don't have family or they've sort of, Broken the family's hearts. So many times the family has cut them off. Mm-hmm. , when it comes to the doctors and nurses, it's not like they don't care, but they're trying to carry a massive caseload and they just don't have the time to sit down and hold people's hands as much as they'd like to.So, you know, I listen to a lot of stories from such people men and women you know, some stories that, that I'll never tell not because. I guess because I want to think that in some way, even though I'm not a Christian, I wanna believe that those moments were sacred. I wanna believe that when we sat down and I allowed them to say what they wanted to say and listen with them, listen to them, I think it actually made a difference.So anyway, that's, that's how I had insight. [00:12:00] Into that. I also and this is me being bold and doing what I know is right as uncomfortable. It's, I'm I'm very significantly bipolar. And so when you see the voices and the bifurcation, the tri, what that is, it's pulling together the gross statistics about former servicemen, veterans.being homeless, and then the percentage of the homeless that are mentally ill is massive too, because Ronald Reagan said in the eighties, you know what, we're gonna eliminate all federal care for, for, you know, the mentally ill overnight. And he, he doubled the homeless population. So there's a lot of drawn together, a lot of anger, a lot of betrayal and.You know, I think there's so many different ways to read a scene. I think I wrote it one way because I am bipolar, but for me, the guy left his family cuz he didn't want to expose them to what was coming. And, and you know, [00:13:00] that's significant I think, I hope because I think there are a lot of people who deal with that.And I think there are a lot of people who don't know from day to day whether their presence in somebody else's life is positive or. And I mean, I can tell you, you know, sometimes I struggle with that, that question, but the idea for me of walking away from people that I love as my wife and son is just.Devastating. So when I was writing that, I was trying to put myself in the head space of somebody who felt so hopeless, who had so little access to the care they need, the therapists they need, the drugs they need that they thought the the best thing they could do for, for their family is to walk away.So yeah, I No, I've, I've lived a pretty sheltered life in some ways, but I've, through various decisions I've made and jobs I've taken, whatever, have run into some [00:14:00] well, a, a wide variety of people with very different experiences, and it, it's something that I'm grateful for and, but it's also something that's tremendously humbling because I can't understand.What they went through. I can only listen. And really and blood it the root. That's what I'm, I was trying to do, is just listen, listen to the things our society says and talk, you know, interact with them. Let me, let me give you one more example and I'll shut up and let, let you. How the floor again, sorry.So the way this book works is by inversion distortion manipulation, but there's also celebration in there. And so it's not meant to be unrelentingly. You know, dark and horrible, but there's a lot of dark and horrible in there. But anyway, one of the perversions that's in there is the, the Latin name of the billionaires company stands for stands for it translated as someone [00:15:00] who has been elected to have to accumulate limitless wealth or limitless, limitless profit.And I think that sort of, Sort of, you know, just encapsulates a lot, a lot of what makes our country so sick is it we teach people to pursue things that aren't gonna make them happy, that aren't gonna fulfill them. We have people who save. Family is the most important thing, working 60 hours a week. And we have this idea of, of limitless profit, limitless income, but it literally can't work out.And I won't go into the technical details of derivatives and whatnot, but let's just say that in the eighties there were about I wanna say eight eight billion worth of derivatives out there. There's over 700 now. So a derivative is essentially a made up A made up financial product and, and it just goes to show that our house is a house of [00:16:00] cards.We're, and we're telling our people, we're gearing our people to this unlimited consumerism. So we're, we're, as a society telling them to do things, basing around based their lives around something that can't happen. You know, something, something that, that is an illusion. . And so that's one of the things in, in making that the name of the, the corporation, I wanted to kind of point to.The fact is like thi this is, this is perverse, you know, we are all of us for the most part, directing our energies towards things that A, we don't need, and B, they're not going to solve the problems that society has anyway. You have to pick up . De'Vannon: No, you know what? I like my show to be cathartic, you know, for, for my guests.And I could tell this is this, this is some shit you need to say. So I'm, I'm just gonna let you go ahead and get it off your chest. And so [00:17:00] couple of things here. So, You know, you know, plenty of people in the military, you know, we go in there and we just don't come out the same, you know, whether you went over to a war or not.And so I appreciate that that aspect of it. Now, you, you, you mentioned like if you were being nice and talking to these people and you said, even though I'm not a Christian, why did, so do you equate like some sort of. A valor or some sort of characteristic of niceness to Christianity, and yet you disassociate yourself with that.Why did you specify that you're not a Christian, but you feel like you were still doing a good Ciahnan: thing? I guess the reason I specify that is cuz I grew up evangelical. Oh, okay. went to seminary and I got ordained. I did that whole thing. Oh. And so, like it or not, those are the words and images [00:18:00] that are in my head.Like when I search for, you know, when I, when I search for something that has the power of what I'm trying to say, it often falls back on that kinda language. Now I left. Basically cuz I didn't feel like I could in good conscience continue in the church. As far as you know, any anger or residual hurt I, I really I really try to.To let go of anger and who, who doesn't. Right? But I'm very much, I, I wouldn't say I'm a Buddhist, but that's the practice that I follow. The precepts, you know, the meditation, the, you know, what have you. And one of the things that Buddha teaches is that, you know, the future is in your imagination, the past of your memory.The only thing [00:19:00] that's real. Is right here, right now. Now, I'm not saying take that in a hippie dippy, you know, live in the moment type thing. But what I am saying is that I don't wanna reach for something that is gonna be like poisoned to me. I don't wanna reach for something that is going to make me angrier than I already am.So I guess the, the reason I was trying to say I'm not a Christian, but I had that experience was just, To take advantage of that, that imagery, but also to say that when I'm talking about this interaction, when I'm talking about its power, it's not what you hear about in church for the most point. I don't mean angels or Jesus or, or God or anything.What I mean, and, and I guess the closest thing I would, the definition I would, I would give of God at this point in my life is to say that God is what happens when two people are present for each other. So in listening to the person, it wasn't just being nice. It was like, you know, especially street people, how many people stop and have a conversation with [00:20:00] 'em?You know, you hear all , all the debate about, well, what should a homeless person be able to spend their, you know, food stamps on or whatever. They're not treated like human beings. And I know most homeless don't have food stamps, but you know what I mean. And so for me to just say, you know what, I'm gonna give myself to.For, you know, for this time. I think it, it is a tremendous gift. And, and you know, it's not just homeless people, I don't think, I think everybody wants to, to be heard. Mm-hmm. . You know, I think anytime somebody pays attention to another person, that person is gonna feel valued to a greater or lesser extent.That person is gonna feel like they've been invested in you know, You could be doing any, any number of other things but you're here talking to me or more appropriately listening to me De'Vannon: so you know of. [00:21:00] So, you know, something that that stands out to me about you is that you took the time to write this, and this book is really all about, you know, disadvantaged people, marginalized people, people who haven't been heard, people who are reduced to their negative circumstances and things like that.And, you know, you could have walked by, you know, or nothing like, you know, you didn't have to even, you know, stop and do this. So I'd like you to give yourself a hell of a lot more credit , you know, than what you. Do, because writing a book is AAN undertaking. You know, people might say, oh, I'm gonna write that book, girl, or whatever.Most people won't like actually sitting down and do it. You've done it twice now, and both times you did it for the sake of giving voice to people other than yourself. And so, I don't refer to myself as a Christian either because the word has become corrupt and I don't need a word to define my faith anyway.Jesus himself [00:22:00] technically wasn't a Christian. That's something that people came up with after the fact, and so I'm actually, I'm actually about to release a free book that's just gonna be on my website called don't Call Me a Christian, and it's gonna get into like my my views on the fuckery that has become of the church.And you're right, the, the sort of love you're showing is not found in churches, not, not typically. And so, I appreciate the vegan food that they have down at the Buddhist temples. You know, I've been to the lawns here. It's always great to go hang out with other ball bitches, such as my . I, I, I don't feel alone when I'm there.And so so y'all, he mentioned, Ken mentioned Mr. Fairchild, like the billionaire from the book. So when the book opens Fairchild's kid. Has decided that he's going to make a video like sacrificing himself in a [00:23:00] way. He's g he's like getting his ass kicked and beaten. He's like walking on broken glass and he hadn't eaten in 22 days and all of this, you know, is going on and he's videoing this and broadcasting this as if to a tone for all the like race racist sins of his forefathers and stuff like that.And so you see this echoed throughout the stories through. The book there is the appearance of like, you know, like Hispanic people and, you know, middle Eastern people. I think you really covered like the gamut on a lot of different eth ethnicities here, sir. I mean, I am impressed. Thank you, . Ciahnan: I'll, I'll tell you the first scene that you mention, I've been, I've been accused of being a racist against whites.Because, because I wrote it. Fuck it. Yeah. To me, to me, with a book that. It doesn't have a traditional structure. There's very obviously something going [00:24:00] on here that isn't normal, so if you wanna just blow through it, that's fine. I, you know, there's many ways to read, but don't blow through it and then go and write a review and say these insane things.That first scene with Christopher Fairchild being led. That's an inversion of the historical reality, one of the biggest slave markets in the country. Ut used to be in New York City on the corner of Wall and Pearl. So what, what do we assume with, with wall Street? It, it's like this symbol of American wealth, right?So you have this scene that people are objecting to and calling me anti-white . And it's like the history isn't hard to find. You can read it for. My point is not to be anti-white or pro-black or anything like that. My point is to say we are telling ourselves this story. We're not telling ourselves these stories as the case may be.And guess what? They're real. We need to face them. We are destroying [00:25:00] ourselves by making these lies, this center, center of our social life in the country. You know, that opening scene is super. And just so all your listeners know, I'm not a psycho. I did not get off writing that there's tons of violence in there, but guess what?Sit down and talk with some people who've lived in certain places or escape certain places or whatnot. It's a violent fucking life. Sorry, I didn't mean to say that, but, and, and people like. It just is insane to me. They so hate being uncomfortable, even for 10 seconds, that they're gonna completely reject this scene and not sit with it.And you know, I know I sound like a pissed off writer, and I guess I'm letting myself express that a little more than I De'Vannon: should today. Let it out. Let it out. . Ciahnan: I mean, the reality is, is we need to, we need not just to talk to each other, but we need to listen to each other. We need to listen to what's happened.[00:26:00]You know, it's probably cliche at this point but James Baldwin, he said, not everything we face can be changed, but nothing can be changed until we face it. And I think that at the heart of all this, the, the heart of this project is, This sort of almost petition on my part. It's like, what if we gave honesty a chance?What if we sat down and acknowledged what had happened? You know, what would that do to our society? Now I've been really frustrated by people going on and on about Black, black Lives Matter recently, cuz they completely misrepresented in so many ways. They're also acting like the American public has attention span that's going to last more than 18 months.You know, in this stuff it just goes further and further from, from memory. And so these people are convincing themselves that this is a great threat. Their, well, their way of life in their [00:27:00] rights are, they're not even trying to walk reality. And, you know, I just, it, it, I don't know. I keep tripping over my own words, but I, I guess what I want people to see is that, you know, there's a liberation in truth.You know, it'll be uncomfortable for a while, maybe for a very long time. But wholeness is the point, right? We wanna be healthy, we wanna be there for each other. We don't wanna be at war with each other. We want to understand each other to a certain extent when we talk. And and that's only gonna happen if you're willing to do the work required to uncover the actual.Of this country. I mean, I don't know how many people are aware that the, the, we bombed bla Black Wall Street into non nonexistent. We say that, well, you know, black people have never had wealth. Actually no. We just bomb the shit out of 'em every time they get it, you know? And I lived in Chicago for a while and one of the things they [00:28:00] had theirs, you know, they have these sort of neighborhood stores.The idea being that if you're black, you give your mind to another black person, not to some. Billionaire who owns a corporation. Well, guess what? Those stories were put out of business, and it wasn't because of anything that those, the proprietors were doing. It was because the powers that be recognized, the threat that equality posed to their bullshit narratives and to the power predicated.It, it, I, I don't know why. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does bother me sometimes that that. Enjoyed such privilege and so maybe there is a, a mona of guilt or anything here, but I really think that where most of where I'm coming from is just disbelief that amidst all this darkness, there can be celebration, there can be triumph.It won't ever be final, cuz we'll always be imperfect, sinful to use the Christian phrase, but, [00:29:00]We don't even know because we're not even willing to try to, with, with the levels of joy and wholeness and health that, that are available to us that we could have in our lives. De'Vannon: So y'all, what, what what, what Ken is talking about when he says like the Black Wall Street you might wanna look it up. This is the the Tulsa race massacres back in in 1921. And I'm just gonna put that out there and y'all can go and research it. Man, I feel like you talk like, like a.Like a minister, like a, like a preacher. Not the fake ones, not the rapey ones. Like , like, like, like the act, right. Hallelu. Like the actual real ones that I, you know, and I remember listening to whenever I did go to church, they had a certain [00:30:00] anointing and like the spirit of God, like was truly, truly, truly with them and they were.You know, and like different, and therefore I can see that you're cold, like, like by God, I can see that you're cold. And I believe that that is what has given you your perspective. Because when the Lord puts his puts, puts that stamp on our forehead like that, it changes us. It changes the way we look at the world.It changes the way the world perceives us. You're somebody who has been set apart. By Christ. And so what I appreciate about the openness of Jesus Christ is that you don't have to go to church, find him like you don't have to. These things, all these religions and stuff that people have created, the 50 million versions of the Bible, well, well, 50 million versions of Christianity and all of that unnecessary.All you need to do is be sincere. in your relationship with him and you, you carry that sincerity heavily. And thank you. And I, and I respect that you're a, [00:31:00] a practicing Buddhist now, but I, I still, I, I, I feel, I feel that, I feel that spirit on you, bruh. And so cuz your first book in this one here, they both sound.It is like, it's like, it's like written ministry because y'all preaching and carrying the gospel. It's not just standing in a fucking pool pit wearing a suit that is so last season, you know, now you reach people. It's, it's just reaching people in whatever way you can be that YouTube books. Podcast setting down at a coffee table, talking to somebody, preaching the gospel or carrying the message of Jesus Christ is not relegated to televangelist in four goddamn walls.God is not limited to that. Now, you had you had. Dropped an F Bond, you said Fuck seem to be quite comfortable with that. But I just wanna remind you, , this is, this is the sex drugs in Jesus podcast where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to, and [00:32:00] so you and I, and I know where you're coming from, you still have those like re maybe like religious restraints and stuff and you, but I'm just gonna let you know again that you were free on this show,Thank you. So now. I have in my head who I think your book is for. And when you were writing this and when you finished it, and I want this is going beyond that, that boring old question, you know, who is your ideal reader? Mm-hmm. , this, this, this dark, this dark stuff right here. Doesn't really, this is different.And I also wanted to tell you about those, the negative reviews, because I get those. We have to remember that people like Amazon and different book retailers don't make their, the people who read and review things go through mental health tests or anything . So literally anybody can go on there and say anything and remember the devil.The devil will try to attack you whenever you're going to [00:33:00] do good. And this is a very good thing that you're trying to do. People have called me entitled after reading my memoir. You know, they, they, they, they, they took away from it that I was entitled . So, and I just had to like, okay, we're just gonna like, let that one go.And so, What kind of change would you like to see this book make in the world? Who did you personally write this for? Why? Who do you want to read this? Is it white people? Is it what? Like who is it? I don't know. Ciahnan: I think I think it just one. People who read it, who will think about it. I don't think it, it's sort of a call to arms and the way that some, some other things are like marching orders.But I, I do hope that people will look, look at this and look at some of the stories and be like, you know, start, like, getting in their head and, and, and asking theirself why, why does it seem different or why does it seem weird? I, I would like them to see [00:34:00] and most people haven't commented it. I dunno if they see it or not, but I would like them to.The spots where joy crops up the spots where healing crops up. One of my favorite chapters in there, I is you know, Mary the Mary section, and it's these two church going people father kicks. The the son out of the house because he is gay, even though he doesn't want to, even though he's like crying as he's doing it and like tries to distract his wife so he can slip a ton of money into his son's pocket.And, you know, that's, that's so much pain and, and. And whatnot. And then you, they go ahead and, and after limited reconciliation, they lose him to aids. And so all this unrelenting pain and like the worst kind of pain, the deepest pain, and at the. That chapter, this woman and her husband before they passed, he [00:35:00] passed away, were able to reconcile.They were able to be together to name their mistakes and find love in the love that carried them. And the, the chapter ends with Mary writing a letter to Fairchild his, to his father, saying, you know, whatever he did, however bad it was. Love is the. Trust me. We mess this up and don't do it. You know, all you need is love.And so on the one hand, like I intentionally chose that hokey all you need is love. But I did that because here's a woman who's been through Helen back, who's lost every person that mattered to her. and she's okay. She found a way to interact with her husband and her son, even though they're both gone.She's found a way to look at the garden that he made for her and, and to Dr. Derive joy from that. And so here's this woman. Who suffered so much and she's discovering these [00:36:00] blessings and then she reaches out to another person. And that's the big thing there. That's what I want to, that's the theory that I wanna test that love cannot but extend itself.So I've heard some, somewhere along the way, I think it was Richard of Saint Victory, he was a theologian and he said that the reason there is the Holy Spirit is because when there's love, it can't. Go outward and create something new. So, you know, is that chapter key to understanding the whole book?No, but it's definitely raising a possibility that maybe we have something right available to us that we don't take advantage of, that we don't know. You know, and, and one of the things, and, and this was important to me, is that these people, I wanted them to have, I wanted them to be sinful, especially the father, so that, that love, it wasn't just coming to Miss Perfect.It wasn't to j just coming to somebody who'd earned it. It was love [00:37:00] and coming and it changed things. You know, so I think, I think what I would like people to do is maybe just read the chapters and ask themselves if there's anything in. That resonates with them deeply or anything in there that, that jars with some of the stories that they've been told.De'Vannon: So yeah. Well, something that jars, thank you for that breakdown with my friend. And I'm gonna read me another X. So, because this here jarred with me and And this here is a good example of kind of like how the comedy can be mixed with this seriousness here. And so I'm gonna read now. So it says, y'all hear about the new drug they coming out with?Yeah. It's a dick pill. They're calling it black guaranteed to double your dong and a New York minute. There's a lot of New York references y'all, because this store is based in New York City. So now before you, why [00:38:00] people? And he's spelling it. W Y P I P o, which I think is hilarious. I don't know if there's a reason, but I really, really love it.So now, before you, why people hiding in the corner get too excited? You should know that it has some pretty serious side effects. Cab drivers, employers, and loan providers won't be able to see you no more cops in your vicinity are gonna hallucinate automatic weapons and hot damn. If you won't be drawing the Tyler Perry.Drinking water at room temperature and baby bougie teas, like a moth to a motherfucking flame.And then I'm gonna add to that. Piggybacking off of the hallucinating automatic weapons and take it a bit more serious. There's another excerpt that says we interrupt this broadcast for a breaking news special report. We have unconfirmed reports coming in at a standoff between a man and the St. George Police has ended without casualties.[00:39:00] While we have yet to ascertain the alleged gunman gunman's identity, eyewitnesses describe him as a thin, clean shaven Caucasian male, approximately six feet tall of the military haircut. We can also now confirm that police have recovered. HK four 17, a two 20 inch sniper rifle from the crime scene leading the speculation that they may have apprehended the courthouse gunmen while ballistics have yet to be run.Authorities believe the rounds that killed Stacey Harrison and Terrace Green will match the rifle. Talk to me about both of those excerpts in just how relevant this is. Right. Ciahnan: Well see, the first one I was a little conflicted about early because it's, it's a play on a racist joke. Obviously, you know, dick pill, black side effects can't spell or swim.I, so, I, I didn't mean, I hope that doesn't offend you, but that's the, that's the joke. . And so I was trying to [00:40:00] flip that. Mm-hmm. so that, you know, we're no longer gonna be shitting all over black people with Punch China. This joke, we're gonna be pointing, pointing a lens in society. You know, it is also very hard for a white person to know what.To what extent it's helpful to talk about these shootings. You know, the there's there's been so many. Yeah. And you know, people at Ferguson were railing like it never happened before. It's like, you guys, do you have any memory? We had race Rios in the late eighties. You know, America gets really interest interested in.Every 30 or 40 years. And it's usually just to remind African American people that, you know, if they step outta line, boom. I decided to use it just because it had become so ubiquitous. I'm not saying that any of the [00:41:00] lives that were taken deserved it or anything, but there was one in particular that just devastated me.Tamir Rice, a 12 year old kid. I. Oh my God. Like I, I, I don't, I can't explain that. I mean, I, I've heard all kinds of, you know psychiatric explanations about people seeing what they're taught to see. And so therefore the, you know, the training, the police gett, which is like for Armageddon they see a threat no matter whether or not one exists.So maybe that's the case, but my son's nine and. A nine year old, a 12 year old's gonna be a little bit older, but he's four six or four 10. You can't mistake a child, a pre ascent child for an adult, you just can't. And, and, and that to me says again that there's some narrative buried deep in our psyche as a certain that allows [00:42:00] this, that authorizes this.You know, and, and, and. Obama when he said that that his son would've looked like Trayvon. Like that, that, I mean, it was so right. So perfect. He got slammed for it as we knew he would. But it, it needs to get that kind of real for more people. You know, but before things are gonna happenDe'Vannon: I could see this book here.Used for like open mic nights, you know, in different poetry rooms. I could see this being used on like group Zoom discussions and stuff like that. It's very provocative and the way that it's broken down is good talking points to bring up a lot of things, you know? I could see this in colleges and universities, you know, and, and things like that.And, . It just, it's, [00:43:00] it's, it's a, it's, and it's, there's things like almost 300 pages too, so it's not like, it's like It's, it's, it's, it's like a good whole lot of content. This is very, very high value to me. I cannot wait to leave you quite a delicious review. Thank you. I'm gonna read my final excerpt because it gives me an excuse to speak a little bit of Espanol.Okay. Nice. And also highlights these, you know, the, the race wars that I have witnessed personally between like, And Hispanic people, which I thought was the damn thing when I was in Southern California and a recruiter for the, for the Air Force and some of my high schools, the blacks and the Hispanics were fighting while the white people were standing there looking at them.And I was like, y'all have got this completely fucked up. And so to again, he says who else we got here tonight? I see a bunch of brothers and sisters. [00:44:00] Ss I know my people. Have had beef with your people. Perro, the enemy of my enemyrights. Laquanda is an 87 year old swartz swallowing lesbian from Detroit. Jose is a 17 year old digital overlord from Moka. She loves to doco. His mama once drilled him with his shoe at 30 yards. What brought them together? White people,Ciahnan: I I had a review that one they got left and like his big nasty, you know, the, like, the worst thing he said is, you know what? And that comedy is not funny. Funny to.I am glad it, it resonated with De'Vannon: you, . Yeah. If, if only we could just let the good people come in there and review us there. [00:45:00] I went on someone else's show and we were talking about like Jesus and Dick and fucking, and whatever, and somebody messaged her and she, and they were like fearing, you know, for her soul.You know, it was gonna go, it was like quite dramatic, you know? But there's all kinds of minds in this world. But what, what do you have to say to this whole war between like black people and Hispanic people? Which is I felt like was at the heart of this. Yeah, no, I Ciahnan: It kicked off while I was in Chicago, or at least escalated.And I think what you have is, is something that you can find. In just about every totalitarian society. And what I mean by that is, say I, I'm sitting pretty, I'm a white person. Life is good for me. I got these black people. I gotta keep them under control. They outnumber me by tons. So what am I gonna do?Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna create a third group or help a third. Achieve some kind of [00:46:00]success, some kind of wealth, some kind of, you know, toehold, and then they're gonna turn on each other. And it's not an accident. It, it's, it's manufactured. It's facilitated. And I mean, it's, it's most obvious, I guess, in South Africa where they, they basically took a small group of the the, the black folk there and some Indians.And allowed them to achieve middle class. And suddenly those black folk and Indians are voting for the Apartheid government and helping them keep the Black South Africans down. And, and I really think that what's, what happens here is sort of to a variety of that. De'Vannon: Yeah, the only thing I have to say to that is, oh hell now.That's all I could say. That's all I could say. So I read where you [00:47:00] donate 10% of the profits from your books to charity, and so I was wondering which charities and why, and then is this 10% like a tithing thing or what did you come up with that number from?Ciahnan: So I came up with a number just cuz it was a nice round number.An independent author like me is like, I don't make any money. I haven't sold that many books honestly. But that said what little money I do get, if I could take that and put it on something that's support. You know, a project that I'm trying to, to help or support in my book, then that's you know, that's a really good feeling.A way of, I think speaking putting my money where my mouth is, if you will. Girls Inc. Is the one that the charity that a lifetime of men donates to. And basically what that is, is a program that through mentorship science, technology, engineering, medi. [00:48:00] Just went right outta me. Sorry. Medicine.Create creates women who will be more likely to success and succeed in the future. It's, it's a program targeted at young girls, teenage girls. So mathematics, science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. The other one blood at the root supports rock your world. Which is a organization that I just absolutely love because what they're doing is they're trying to teach the next gen generation of artists how to use their art as activism, how to use their art to affect the world.And so I actually had a interview with them. I spoke to their class and accidentally dropped an F bomb, and I haven't heard that from them yet, . But I still love what they're doing and great people great people. De'Vannon: I think you're a great person. Keon. . [00:49:00] He has oh, you're welcome. He has an you said your name's from Ireland.Gaelic, Ciahnan: yeah. GA ish, but yeah, De'Vannon: Ireland gay. I think it's a sexy ass name. . So and so, how long were you in the military? Ciahnan: I was in Roxy from 2001 to 2004, and then I was in the Army national Guard from 2006 to 2011. I never got sent anywhere. I mostly worked as an acting chaplain because the The battalion that I was part of didn't have a chaplain assigned to it.It was for the most part pretty wonderful for me cuz I got to help a lot of people. I didn't have a whole lot of oversight. So I didn't feel the hierarchy. Too intensely. No. There, there's some pretty hard parts though too. [00:50:00] Human beings aren't meant to kill each other. They just aren't. And when, once they have, you know, they come back, like you said, differently.You know, you see some guys who a thousand yards stare. You know, after that just seemed sort of vacant or, you know, one guy I knew stabbed his wife obviously that wasn't who he bet at, at all up to that point. Doesn't forgive what he did, but, you know, I think, I think when you go and you have certain experiences, it changes you.But I did have, this is kind of funny. I did have a guy sign up for a wedding retreat, or excuse me, couples retreat that I was that I was organizing, and he put down one wife's name. In another wife's number turned out he was married to two women at the same time. And [00:51:00] dealing with that, that was fun.I finally said uh, this is above my grade. , just move it up De'Vannon: the ladder. And I'm assuming these, this was not a polyamorous situation. No. No, that's important. They could have, they could have had all the fun three ways every night. Come on. Hell yeah. . So . Well, thank you. Thank, thank you so much for your service.I appreciate that. Thank you. You too. Immensely. Oh, absolutely. I can't say I do it again, but you know, I did what I did and so it's done now, so. Okay. So then my so then just as we get ready to close, and I thank you so much for your time for somebody else who might want to use writing in this way.Or any kind of closing words you have at all, whether it's that or whatever, just for the world in general. Cause this is a very specific type of [00:52:00] polarizing writing that I've never seen before. And so if somebody's inspired to do this, what would you say to them? All Ciahnan: right. Two things. The first is sort of procedural, I guess.Whenever you have violence and you use the word provocative whenever you have a a book that that is violent or provocative, you always have to weigh and it it's this really difficult, difficult calculus because. You risk on the one hand seeming like you're just going in for a pornography of violence, trying to be shocking.And then you lose your ability to communicate. On the other hand, if you get it right, who knows exactly what that means, but then that violence will re lead them to further questions. And one of the things that I have found I is Is that it's, it's can be very [00:53:00] difficult to, to get people to read books that ask questions that, that that demand answers, that require that you not just take your first impression and have that be it.And the final thing I, I wanna say, and this is I think more important if you wanna. And you want to write specifically to have some kind of impact on the world, the first thing you need to do is read tremendously, read widely. There's so much, much out there, so many different circumstances and perspectives.And what that'll do is it will not just give you information, but it'll give you a sense of the conversations that are already going on. So you're not trying to reinvent the wheel. And what that writing or that reading will give you time to do too is get yourself to the point. And this is, this is the most important thing I can say to any aspiring writer.[00:54:00]Get yourself to the point where you can be your own source of affirmation. If you are writing. To get compliments from other people. If you are writing to get a book deal, if you are writing to make money, the odds are you're gonna fail and that failure compounds and then you internalize it. I have to fight that against money against that myself sometimes more successfully than others, and I've seen it in so many others.Do not. For, you know, for, for other people according to other people's standards. Read tremendously. Write for yourself. Figure out who you are and what you're doing, and once you're armed with that background knowledge, the knowledge of your identity and what specifically it is that you want to do. Then you can step out into the world, then you can step out into trying to get published and whatnot, and you could step out with the confidence that comes from knowing who you are, from knowing you know your stuff [00:55:00] and from knowing exactly what it is you wanna accomplish.I think a lot of writers rush things, cuz everybody wants to be published and I wanna be published. And, and what ends up happening is a tremendous amount of rejection and some of it you can learn from. Some of it is really useful. I've had some, some rejection and even a negative re review of, of blood that I felt was tremendously helpful.But you'll be ready to deal with that, to process that. You'll be ready to take it and learn from it if you do the work ahead of De'Vannon: time. You preaching now. Thank you so much Canon for coming on the show today. Y'all's website is kenan darryl.com. I'm gonna put this in the showy notes as I always do.He's on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn. Again, his first book is called A Lifetime of Men, and the second one, it's called Blood at the Root. Both of those are at his website, ken dorell.com. [00:56:00] Thank you so much my friend. It was, Pleasure speaking with you today. You Ciahnan: as well really, really appreciate the opportunity and it was just a fun conversation. .De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at sexdrugsandjesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

INTRODUCTION: Spencer Bishins has a master's degree from the London School of Economics, and a law degree from Florida State University. Working for SSA for more than 10 years, he drafted or reviewed thousands of disability decisions. After leaving SSA, he wanted to help demystify the complicated disability system. His first book, Social Security Disability Revealed: Why it's so hard to access benefits and what you can do about it, explores the obstacles that disability claimants face as they try to access benefits. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      SSA System Demystified ·      Veteran's Concerns ·      The Impact On The LGBTQIA+ Community·      Are Drugs & Alcohol A Factor?·      SSI Vs. SSDI·      Medicaid & State Level Implications·      Acceptable Income Levels·      The Way Claims Are Handled ·      Treatment Record Hassles·      HIV Rules ·      How Approvals & Denials Are Decided·      The Impact Of Politics·      Interesting Info On The Kinds Of Judges That Decide Cases CONNECT WITH SPENCER: Website: https://www.bishinspublishing.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BishinsPublishingInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/bishinspublishing/Twitter: https://twitter.com/bishinspub  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT:Spencer Bishins[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Spencer Bishins is the author of the Eyeopening book Social Security Disability Revealed why it's so hard to access benefits and what you can do about it baby. Now in this episode, we're peeling back the pages to give you an inside look at what really goes on inside the Social Security Administration.And as you can guess, it's lots of Tom Foolery lies honey scandals in every [00:01:00] imaginary type of deception. Listen close, learn some new shit. Share this with a bitch, you know, and reach out to me and let me know what bothered you the most about what you found out about the Social Security Administration.Hello, are you beautiful and special people out there? And welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. My name is Hubert and I'm your house. And I have with me the mentally stimulating, mind opening, feeling spilling. Spencer Bishops and he is an author and he has come to help us out a lot today.Spencer, how are. Spencer: I'm good. How are you? I am De'Vannon: fan fucking, Spencer: and I, I, I have to say that is the most unique intro I've had so far. No one has given me that exact same intro yet, , [00:02:00]De'Vannon: god damn it. And they never fucking will unless they steal my shit. So, I mean, that's bowing to happen. So so Spencer, he, he wrote a book, it's called Social Security Disability Revealed.Oh, there it is. Beautiful. Why it's so hard to access then to fits and what you can do about it. So, Spencer Bishop, he has a master's degree from the London School of Economics and a law degree from Florida State University. Go FSU now. He worked for the Social Security Administration for more than 10 years.Then he pieced out from them motherfuckers because he wanted to demystify the complicated disability system. This book here, Gonna help you overcome the obstacles that stand in the way of you getting your damn money. Especially after we work, they take all goddamn damn money outta our check and then when we want it, they don't wanna give it back.Ain't that some shit? [00:03:00] Fucking Spencer: bitches. You don't even need me. That's just summarize the whole book right there, . Yeah. So. De'Vannon: I'm gonna pull up the table of contents and read just a few of the chapters and then, I mean, read, read a few of the chapter titles just cause I found them to be interesting. And then, and then right after that, I'm gonna let you tell people why you wrote it and who you are, in your own words.But I thought, I just thought the, the table of contents would like, kind of spill some of the t. So some of the chapter titles from this book are called like after the hearing the Appeals Process, permanent Mental Health Conditions, drug Abuse and Alcoholism, child claimants, deceased Claimants and Widow Claimants Firing Your Representative, and fraud, waste and Abuse.You know, this, this book has 34 chapters in it. So during this podcast show here, and I don't know, we might have to have you back on for a second [00:04:00] time, but be it once or twice, we won't be able to cover all this. So, Y'all wanna get your money, gonna have to get this booked here. So we're thankful that you, after having worked there, gave us this testimony.Now tell us why you did this in your own words and who you are.Spencer: Before I do that, I just wanna say, I promise what's in those chapters is far more interesting than the titles themselves. I wanted to do some more like catchy chapter titles and my editor suggested, no, just tell people what's in the chapters.Don't get too fancy with the chapter titles themselves, but the actual content is far more interesting. So I worked for Social Security for 11 years. During the first four years, I reviewed thousands of cases on appeal decisions that had already been written. And then I went before, as you say, before I pieced out.I spent another seven years at the hearing level actually writing decisions for [00:05:00] administrative law judges. So, and I wrote almost 2000 decisions. So with a sample size that large, as you can imagine, I learned a lot about who gets paid, who doesn't, how judges make the decisions that they make, what techniques they use to deny cases, even when there's really good evidence suggesting someone is disabled.And as you said in the intro, everyone who has paid into the system, that's your. If you work, if you've paid the social security tax, whether you're an employee or have been an employee, or are, or have been self-employed, either way you've paid the social security tax. Mm-hmm. , and that's why it's called an entitlement because you are entitled to get money if you qualify.But I learned a lot of the ways that Social Security and its judges look at people and medical records that should qualify for benefits and figure out ways to deny those [00:06:00] claims. And so I wanted to present the information that I had learned about what the Social Security disability process is. Cause it, it, you know, it's the government and it's, it's social security.It's like two things that if you are not sleeping well, you know, just think about those right. And it'll be your cure for insomnia. And so most Americans don't want to think about boring things like the government or social security or government benefits until you actually need them. If you get hurt, injured, have some sort of chronic condition or something, all of a sudden it ain't so boring anymore, right?Then you realize, wow, this is something that I actually need. I really need to know how to work this system. I need to know how to play the government game, and so that I can give myself a decent chance of actually getting these benefits that I've paid for. Mm-hmm. , De'Vannon: show us the [00:07:00] money. We need our money. So how many people do you think are on disability right about now, and about how many applications do you think come in a year?Spencer: So it wasn't long ago that it was like 2 million applications a year. I think now it's somewhere between around 1 million applications a year. I don't know if we're still above that number or not. And somewhere around nine or 10 million Americans are on are receiving disability benefits. And for social security overall, I think it's like 40 million.It's a lot because that baby boomer generation is in the retirement zone and in like another 10 years as they've died out. I mean it sounds heartless, but that's just statistics and math and reality. Right. At the point where they've died out, the number of overall recipients will probably come down, but the number of disability recipients probably hold pretty steady over time.Okay, De'Vannon: [00:08:00] so, so somebody, it's a, it is a state benefit as I understand it, or is it federal? Spencer: No, it's a federal benefit. When you apply, the first place your application goes is to your state agency and someone at the State Department of Health is responsible for making that initial decision. But if you're approved, it comes out of the federal pot of money, either the Social Security Trust fund for Social Security Disability Insurance, or for supplemental security income, which is a different program.It just comes right out of that plot of general revenues in federal income tax that we all pay. But, but it's federal both ways. So at the initial level and at the reconsideration level, which is the second, second step of the process, it's a state employee making the decision, but still as to whether or not you can get federal money.Okay. So, but, but as I [00:09:00] talk about in the book, Their decisions can impact the state budget too, which is why they're not neutral decision makers. They're not disinterested parties. There's a conflict of interest because if they approve you at the, if that state employee approves you for ssi, you can then get the Medicaid.And Medicaid is a federal state partnership, right? So it's a state employee deciding whether or not you should be approved for ssi, but knowing if they approve you, it's gonna cost the state money from their Medicaid program. So what would you do if you were that state employee and you could potentially cost the state lots of money and your boss has told you, stop costing our state.It's a conflict of interest, isn't De'Vannon: it? Yeah. They do shit like that. That's why I don't work for anyone anymore because bosses are bitches. So you mentioned ssdi. I, so what is the difference between SS I versus [00:10:00]S S D Spencer: I? Yeah, so, and I, and I cover this more in depth in part one of the book. But SSDI is, so I think it, you used to work for someone then, right?Were you ever an employee, W2 employee and you got a pay stub? Yeah. Most of us have done that at some point. Right? On that pay stub, you see three federal taxes coming outta your paycheck every two weeks. Federal income tax. But then there's also the social security and Medicare tax, that social security.Goes to pay for the Social Security Trust fund. And normally we think of that as retirement. I got something I get when I'm an old bart. Right? Don't have to worry about that now. But that also pays for the disability program, which think of that like as your retirement benefits, but sooner if you become disabled and unable to work.So that tax pays for both of those programs, which are kind of really the same [00:11:00] program. That's ssdi Social Security Disability Insurance, that tax you pay. Think of that like an insurance premium that you're paying. And then you have this insurance coverage and you have to have that insurance coverage in order to file an insurance claim.So it operates like an insurance company in that regard. Separate from that is supplemental security income. And that program is really for people who either, who don't have that. Insurance that I just talked about, because they haven't paid enough into the social security system to earn enough credits.So that could be stay at home parents, it could be young workers who haven't paid in long enough. It could be recent immigrants, it could be older people who are retired and haven't worked in the last five years, and so their insurance ran out. So for whatever reason, maybe you just can't get that S S D I insurance.Well, you can go file a claim for [00:12:00] ssi and as I said, that comes out of just regular income taxes. But because that's not an earned benefit, you didn't pay that insurance premium. It's a lot more unstable of a program. First, there's asset and income limitations, so if you have even a little bit of money or you're earning even a little bit of money, you're not gonna qualify.And even if you get approved, it's like 800 bucks a month. And if you work part-time, they'll offset that 800 bucks a month. And as I talk in the book, they'll even offset it for other things. Like let's say you're homeless, so you're crashing on someone's couch. Social Security will say, well, you're getting air quotes pre-read, and they'll deduct whatever they think the value of that is from your ssi.So that SSI program, it's there. And for some people it's all they can get, but it's really not a very good or very useful program. [00:13:00] So the SS D I program is much better. It's an earned benefit. And with that you can get Medicare coverage if you're disabled, which helps with healthcare. If you're not working, you don't have private health insurance.Right. And the other great thing about the S S D I program, the insurance program is that you can actually work. And still get paid benefits at the same time. And that's totally allowed. And the reason Social Security allows that is they want people to try and go back to work. So they let you collect your benefits while you're getting back into the workforce and making sure you can do it.Oh, De'Vannon: that's so sweet of them. I Spencer: know, right? Yeah. But people get confused cuz they're like, my neighbor's disabled and I saw him out pushing a lawnmower and they think like people are gaming the system by working while collecting disability. But that's just a misunderstanding of the system. System actually wants you to go out and try and work [00:14:00] to see if you can do it.And then if you do that long enough, then you graduate from the S S D I program. And they stop your benefits and you return to the workforce. So it's actually a good thing that we let people collect benefits and work because otherwise nobody would go back to work. Right. And that's what we want. We want people who can go back to work.To go back to work if possible. De'Vannon: So if somebody's working in collecting those benefits, is there like a maximum amount of income they can work? I mean can bring in in order for that to Spencer: happen? You read the book didn't you? ? I can tell. Cause that's an excellent question. And you know the answer is yes, there isSo there's a maximum amount of money that you can be earning per month when you're an applicant and a separate number. That's a maximum that you can earn after you're already receiving S S D I benefits. And that amount is lower. And the thing is, if you work and [00:15:00] earn under that amount, You can just keep working indefinitely as long as Social Security keeps paying you your benefits.If you exceed that amount, that's fine, but you only get to exceed that amount for nine months. At the point where you've exceeded that amount for nine months, social Security decides that's what, how they decide that you can go back to work. And so that amount changes every year. But I believe it's $970 this year in 2022.So if you are getting benefits, you're allowed to work. But if you exceed $970 per month, it actually isn't a lot to think about it, right? Like if you're making 50 bucks an hour, it's 20 hours a month or five hours a week. So it doesn't take a lot to show that you can go back to work, but that's what social Security wants to see.They don't need to see that you're working 60 hours a week. They just need to see enough to know that they can cut you loose. [00:16:00] And that you'll be okay on your own. Mm-hmm. and, and that number is a little higher when you're an applicant. It's $1,350 per month that you can work and earn and still claim, Ben still file an application for benefits because that amount indicates that even though you can work, you're probably not doing full-time work.If you exceed that amount, social Security decides that's, that means you can probably show that you can do full-time work and you're not disabled. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: So why thank you for that breakdown. Why, why or so many people not at the beginning of the process? Well, we talked about Spencer: one reason already, right?Which is that when you go to the state agency, you, when you first file your application, someone at your state government, usually it's the State Department of Health. Some like $40,000 a year bureaucrat is gonna look at your disability claim and basically like, Make a decision on your life. They'll look [00:17:00] at your medical records and your work history and they'll make a decision as to whether you're disabled.But as I talked about a few minutes ago, they're a state employee and they work for people who wanna keep the state Medicare costs down. So one reason is there's a conflict of interest and they just wanna save the state money. But another reason is, I mean, just think about your own medical records, like they're probably, you probably, if you went to try and get all your medical records for the last couple of years today, you'd have a hard time doing it.And if you have physical impairments, that mean you can't leave your home. So when your doctor says, just come pick 'em up at our office, maybe that's hard to do. Or if you have mental health impairments, Agoraphobia or anxiety, depression, you can't deal with other people. It might be hard to talk to people in, in your doctor's offices.I, not too long ago, a doctor literally told me, we'll [00:18:00] fax you the records. What's your fax number? Like it was 1987. So it's often just really hard for people to get their medical records, to get them organized, to make sure they're complete, to get records from all the different places they've been getting treatment.So I guess they even back up from that. The first thing is sometimes it's hard for people to just get medical treatment. In the United States, 80% of people get their health insurance from work. So if you can't work, cause that's why you're filing a disability claim, right? You can't work, you lose your health insurance, well then you can't go get medical treatment.So the first obstacle is, I can't even get treatment. So how am I supposed to get records? Even if you can get treatment, it's sometimes hard to literally get the actual pieces of paper from your doctor. And then you've gotta get it all organized and give us a social security. You've also gotta fill out their application, their other endless paperwork, like functional reports rely on them probably losing [00:19:00] something along the way and making you fill it out again.Or like, oh, sorry, we lost some of your medical records. Can you like go get those a second time for us? Thank you. It's just barrier after barrier after barrier. The social security puts in your way, a lot of it with very specific intent to keep you from getting through the process and getting a favorable decision on your claim.They know it's hard for Americans without a job and insurance to get treatment. They know it's hard for Americans to gather medical records. Our medical record keeping system in the United States is. In France, everyone has a card. It's kinda like your driver's license and it's like it's got a barcode on it and that card you can take to any medical facility in the entire country and they scan it and they can immediately pull up your entire medical history.In the UK they have something similar with their National health Service and [00:20:00] during the pandemic, within one week, they knew every single British citizen who was a high risk for Covid and they were able to deliver food boxes to those people's homes because they knew where they lived and they did it within one week because they had that information.It was well organized. They knew exactly where to find it, and they knew how to keep people safe. And in the United States, we still have doctors saying, we'll fax you your records. It's ridiculous. But Social Security knows that this is happening. So they know that the records that they're gonna get when you first file your application are gonna be kind of a mess.So is it any surprise that they're denying over 70% of people at that initial application? Somewhere along the line, someone gets tripped up. They don't fill out a form, right? They don't get certain medical records in they can complete, they miss a meeting with someone with the Social Security Office.They can't [00:21:00] go see. Social Security will send you to see this doctor that they basically pay to give you an opinion that you're not disabled. They literally tell you you have to go see a doctor. And we're paying that doctor, and those doctors know to send Social Security and opinion saying that you can work.Otherwise they're not gonna keep getting referrals. And so if you cooperate, you'll probably get an opinion saying you can work. And if you don't cooperate, social says, security says you're not cooperating. So like at some point, one of everything that I've just said will trip up most people and that's why most claims get denied at the initial level.I do know someone who got approved at the initial level, but he was like, he was in the hospital for several months and like, you know, you can imagine how many thousands of pages of medical records that was and they all came from one source. That's the kind of case that social security probably [00:22:00] approves at the initial level, but that's a very rare situ.De'Vannon: Mm. Well y'all of, y'all wanna find out how to circumnavigate that sort of issue. You better grab a copy of this book now. Talk to me about any kind of implications related to, hum. Human immuno efficiency virus, hiv. Spencer: Yeah, so Social Security has a listing for, I it's in the immune disorders section and let's see if I can get it right.I think it's listing 14.08. I haven't been with Social Security in a year, so we'll see if how close I came to that. But the thing is, the social Security listing requirements, they're really strict. And so while every. I was wrong. It's 1407, so I was close though. And [00:23:00] the requirements are super strict for every impairment listing and HIV is no exception.So if you meet the requirements, you can be found disabled without social security considering your work history or whether you could work. That's to talk about in section two of the book, how that's just a medical determination. But you have to have not only the infection diagnosed, but you have to have something else that is either resistant to treatment or requires hospitalization.And that has to happen three or more times in a 12 month period. And there's a list of what these other diagnoses have to be, or you have to have something else for a full 12 month period. Or you have to have repeated manifest manifestations of your disorder. At least two. So there's so many requirements is my point.And that's the case with all the social security [00:24:00] listings. It's not just like an HIV diagnosis. It'll say, you know, an HIV diagnosis with this, this, this, this, and this. And the last thing will have like three elements under that. And that's only like the most severe case is end up meeting these listings.And so for most people, the way that they're found disabled is based on their functioning. So if you don't meet this very specific list of requirements, what social security does is they say, okay, you didn't, you're not disabled medically, but how does your impairment now impact your functioning? What are your functional limitations?And is there a job you can do in the national economy? And so I think with I probably a lot of it is fatigue. And, and there and there may also be difficulty standing and walking or lifting because of fatigue. Do I have that right? As far as like, those are kind of typical functional [00:25:00] limitations someone might have.De'Vannon: I don't really feel like there's like a limit to limitations with someone with HIV man because hiv. Lowers, you know, the immune system and it depends on that person's body. Spencer: That's a great point. Yeah. So you could have gastrointestinal issues, you could have breathing issues, and then of course, it's really common when people have any kind of physical impairments.It's really, really, really common to then have mental health impairments as well. Actually, I, I would say most cases that I saw that had anxiety, depression, PTSD, listed as impairments, they were secondary to some sort of physical condition, be it musculoskeletal or respiratory or an immune system disorder, like hiv.And so, yeah, when you take into account all of this person's impairments and all the ways that it impacts the mind and body, what happens is social security [00:26:00] comes up with a list of functional limitations and then they go to a, a vocational expert, a jobs expert, and they say, Here's a hypothetical person with a bunch of limitations.Are there any jobs in the national economy that person can do? And as I talk about in the book, the thing is when they ask that question, when the judge asks that question, they already know the answer. And here's, I'll give you an example. If I say, I have a hypothetical person who can only work six hours of an eight hour workday, are there any full time eight hour jobs that person can do?We already know the answer is no. Right? Cause the person can only work six hours out of an eight hour workday. So there are certain limitations that SSA judges and attorneys, there are certain limitations that they know will result in a finding of disability. And certain limitations that they know will not result in a finding of disability because there are jobs out there that someone can do with [00:27:00] those limitations.So that's where it becomes a really. Personalized review of your situation where the judge and the attorney looking at the case, have to look at your very specific medical records. Look at what you're telling doctors, look at your overall functioning, look at your attempts at work and see if you couldn't work, why you couldn't work, and try and figure out for this one specific person what that specific person's individualized limitations are based on their personal medical situation.Because as you said, something like HIV and other impairments as well impact people on such an individualized basis at that point. It really, it is about getting into the fine details of that person's medical record to understand what it is that person can or could not do on a 40 hour per week basis.[00:28:00]I'm De'Vannon: gonna get a little bit ahead of myself here since you're, since we're talking about the individualization of it all. Before we had, before, before this recording here, we had talked about a remand rate, a remanding, and you were telling me how not necessarily each and every last review is individualized.Yeah. So can you talk to us about that? Cause I don't want people thinking that they're necessarily going to get special attention, . Spencer: Well, it's, the thing is, it's kind of a mix because the judge who's deciding the case and the attorney who's their staff attorney, who's actually writing the decision, and that was my job, to write the actual decisions for the judges.They do look at every individual's medical records and they do conduct an individualized review of every case at the same time. You are both an individual person but also a statistic because while you're being looked at as an individual case, [00:29:00] that judge has 50 cases that they're doing every month, which means they're doing about 600 case, five to 600 cases a year.And then that hearing office is doing a few thousand cases a year. And then your region is doing 10,000 cases a year or 20,000 cases a year. And then that means nationally it's, you know, over a hundred thousand cases a year. And at each level of the process, you have people looking at the big picture.What is our pay rate? How many cases are we paying? How many are we denying? Is that pay rate too high? Are we getting too much pressure for members of Congress? Cause we're paying too many cases. Maybe we need to bring down the number of cases we're paying. And then if that happens, that filters all the way down to your individual judge who starts thinking.Maybe I'm paying too many cases, maybe out of my 600 cases this year, instead of paying 200, maybe I should pay 1 75 or one 50. And so now they're thinking about which cases [00:30:00] that they may have paid. Now they're gonna deny instead. And that's where you become both the statistic at an individualized person.Because yeah, they're looking at your individualized situation, but they're sitting there thinking, headquarters is telling us to pay fewer cases this year. Maybe this is one that I should be denying. Maybe a week ago I would've paid it. And maybe today, after getting that email from headquarters, maybe today, I think about denying this case.And so it's both and every case is both. You're constantly being evaluated as an individual and a statistic. And that can be really hard on the person writing the decision because. My job was to write the decision the judge wanted. So I don't actually get to decide whether the person's disabled or not.I just have to justify whatever their decision is. And so I would often see cases that I thought there was [00:31:00] really good evidence to approve the person, solid evidence, showing their diagnoses. Say it's something like hiv. I saw a lot of HIV cases. I see their diagnosis. I see their, their test results with cdr CD four, sorry, CD four levels over 200.And I see white count levels that were, were low. And I see other limitations. Difficulty walking long distances. Or someone would say, you know, I tried to go back to work and I just got too tired and I had to quit that job after a week. And the judge would be telling me, we're denying this case. I'd be like, why this?This is really good evidence for I making an individualized analysis saying, I think this is good evidence. I think we should approve this. But then that judge has these external factors that they're thinking about that [00:32:00] in addition to looking at you as an individual, they're also thinking about this case as a statistic.And sometimes when those things, you know, come into conflict, sometimes I then have to write a decision that I don't wanna write or that I don't think the evidence. De'Vannon: Well, I'm so happy you have a soul. You know, I, I know not everybody in the Social Security Administration does, but and you have filled that soul out onto these pages, so I appreciate the, the love that I feel reverberating from you, man.Now there is this book, cuz this little book called The dsm and y'all, that stands with the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. And I think now we're on like the DSM five, it's gone through a few changes over the years. Yeah. So there's a word in there called gender dysphoria. Spencer, and I don't care for that word, dysphoria.However, [00:33:00] that is what is in that book. And so talk to me about what that means and then what it means for dis for the, for these disability claims. Spencer: Yeah. It doesn't mean much. Well, we'll just boil it down to that. So, after the revisions to the DSM happened in 2013 We did start to see diagnoses of gender dysphoria.Andhere's the thing, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a medical professional. The medical training that the lawyers at Social Security who make the legal decisions, the medical training they're given isn't how to look at a person and make a decision. It's really more how to read medical records. Cause that's what we need to do.We need to read medical records and know how to find, know how that evidence translates into the legal aspects of disability. Right? And so if I'm reading a psychologist or psychiatrist's [00:34:00]report and I see a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, I'm not making a decision on whether or not that's accurate. Cause I don't have medical training.All I know is, okay, this one individual medical. Offered that diagnosis. And so what happens then is if the judge, the, the, the definition of a medical impairment for social security is any medical condition that causes even the most minimal impact on any kind of functioning. And so if you were diagnosed with gender, if a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria and there's even like the slightest amount of a lack of functioning in some kind of area, so like a lack of concentration or I have difficulty getting along with other people because they don't understand my, my choices or my body or what's happening with me, [00:35:00] that's enough.And so the good thing is judges are, they're not rejecting that completely. The judges will di will take that diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And they'll put it in the decision and they'll call that a medically determinable impairment. The problem is having a medical impairment isn't enough because what we talked about is you ha then have to have work related limitations in order to find someone disabled.And there, I, I just, I had my experience from working with the agency and through mid 2021 judges, in my experience, were just not able to find much in the way of specific work related limitations due to that diagnosis. And maybe that's actually a good thing. Maybe that's kind of progressive in saying like, we don't, we, we understand that this diagnosis is there, but like whatever gender you identify with doesn't impact your ability to [00:36:00] do a job.So on the one hand, if it's, if someone's really struggling with that and they're having anxiety or depression, Or PTSD or personality disorder or suicidal ideations, that could be a separate diagnosis alongside gender dysphoria and that could have work related limitations. But my experience is the gender dysphoria itself doesn't really result in, in and of itself work related limitations.And so that's really not gonna be a basis for finding someone disabled and unable to work. De'Vannon: I hope. I hope not. And because people should be able to identify sexually as they want, be non-binary, whatever the case may be, without any sort of negative implications. Spencer: Yeah. And can I say, can I say one other thing?I also saw a lot of medical reports where the person [00:37:00] identified as a member of the LGBTQ community and there was no diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And that was probably a more. Maybe a younger doctor or more progressive doctor who is like, I I the pa, there's nothing wrong with the patient. They're telling me they're lesbian, gay, transgender, bisexual.It's not a diagnosis. And so I'm just gonna focus on their anxiety or depression or these other things they're telling me about. I don't need to focus on how they identify. That's not a diagnosis. In the same way that if someone is a cis I'm not gonna diagnose them with something either. So I saw a lot of medical reports where the medical professional, it just, it didn't matter.It wasn't a thing. It wasn't important. It wasn't, they were what they were focusing on in their medical evaluation. And then other doctors who I could tell just by the [00:38:00] language that they were using were probably baby boomer generation, and maybe they just didn't understand that 25 year old who was coming in and, and talking to them.De'Vannon: Right. And then, and then you, you mentioned that you wrote the decision. The judge, judge did not write the decision, so I wanna be sure that, that, that we're super clear on on that. So the judges don't actually write the decisions. What, what was your exact job title again? Tell us so that we can know. Sure.Spencer: So my job title is Attorney Advisor, and here's the way it works. Social Security is a massive system with over a million applications a year. Several hundred thousand cases are going to the hearing level. There's about a thousand judges Nation. Several thousand other support staff and they're seeing several hundred thousand cases.The numbers are absolutely massive and that means you really need an assembly line in order to keep things moving efficiently. [00:39:00] Cause as it is, people have to wait like a year to get a hearing with a judge. So if you're waiting that long and you're thinking like, why is it taking so long? That's ridiculous.It's just because of the enormous scope of the system. So the judges are doing about 50 hearings per month, so that's about 12 hearings per week. So in a 40 hour week, they're doing about 12 cases. So that's like three to four hours per case. And during that three to four hours, they're doing a, a pre-hearing review of all your records so that when you come into your hearing, they know what's going on with you.They have some idea of your medical history and your work history before they even see you. Then they're doing about a one hour hearing, and then they may have to look at some evidence again after your hearing. And then they write this list of instructions and agency shorthand and I talk about this process in the book, they write this list of instructions and they give it to an attorney, [00:40:00] staff, attorney like me, and then the attorney takes 4, 8, 10, 12 hours to actually write the decision.That's where we're looking at every single one of your medical reports, looking at all the doctors you saw, any medical opinions that are in there from your medical sources, thoroughly, completely evaluating all of that in complete sentences so that, you know, we looked at everything and then that decision gets handed back to the judge, and most of them honestly just sign it.They don't even read it, they don't edit it. They just. They've already spent three and a half hours on the case. They don't have time to do anything else, so they just sign it. Other judges will read through it, make some changes here and there, and tinker with it, and then sign it. But they're really spending very little time in the actual decision.Their job is to just big picture, like approve it or deny it. That's my decision. [00:41:00] My, my staff goes and, and breaks that decision down and, and does the full analysis, and then the judge signs it. So when you get it, it looks like Judge John Smith wrote the decision, you know, wrote this comprehensive 15 page decision.But in reality, they're just taking credit for someone else's work. De'Vannon: Okay, now let's talk about drugs, man. Drugs. Let's talk Spencer: about drugs. . De'Vannon: This is the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. So, you know, the marriage Iana is like super useful and shit. And so like, and, and then we have all these hallucinogenics starting to come up, you know, lsd, celly, masculine and all of that.What are the implications of that? Can since somebody having like medical treatment like that hurt their chances to get approved? Spencer: Yes and no. I was a government attorney, so I'm gonna give you the government answer. So there is a chapter in the book that com [00:42:00] thoroughly discusses how drugs and alcohol work.It. Chapter 26, it's called Drug Abuse and Alcoholism. I don't like those terms, by the way. Those terms come directly from a law passed by Congress in 1996, and that's the law that social security still uses. To decide if drugs or alcohol should be a factor in your case. And there's guidance from 2013 as to about how they apply that.But here's the basics. If you're using any kind of drugs or alcohol, and that's the what causes you to be disabled and unable to work. Social Security can deny you benefits, but if it's secondary, in other words, if they remove the drugs and alcohol from consideration and consider everything else, if you would still be found disabled, then they still find you disabled.So it really has to be the drugs or alcohol use that tips you over the line, right? That that puts you [00:43:00] from, maybe you had limitations, but you could still work full-time and you were not disabled. And then if you're using drugs or alcohol and now you're disabled, that's the point where Social Security says We're applying that law.We're finding that Congress says, if that's the reason that you can't work and you're disabled, then we're gonna find you not disabled. But it has some interesting implications because a lot of people do use drugs for, or alcohol, I guess not alcohol, but a lot of people use different substances for treatment.Right. And there's a lot of states where it's legal. I worked in the state of Washington where cannabis has been legal and you could walk into a store and buy it for eight years now, and the stores are everywhere. Anyone who's been to Washington or Colorado, I think they've got a lot now in California, knows that you just go into cannabis or you show your id, they scan your id and you can buy things to [00:44:00] smoke, chew.They have drinks, they have gummies they have like bath salts. Not bad baths, just like fizzies that you put in a bath to soak in for mu to like help your muscles relax. And so a lot of people use these to help reduce their symptoms so that they can try and go back to work. Luckily the judges do understand this and you have different judges, right?You have some judges that are on one end of the political spectrum and other judges that are more conservative and more hard, harder to deal with when it comes to drugs or alcohol. But even those judges understand that in certain states, cannabis is illegal and people can just go to sore and buy it, and that a lot of people are using it in order to try and improve their medical situation, not to make it worse.So my experience, the judges are actually really good at doing that analysis and [00:45:00] not just looking at what you're using, but why you're using it and how it impacts you. And some of it is self. People ask me like, well, how do they know you're using substances? Some of it is self-declared because they're gonna make you fill out function reports and that's all under penalty of perjury and they're gonna ask you if you are using any drugs or alcohol.And so if you lie, that's really, that's a bad thing. So most people will just declare it, and as I talk about in the book, it really is best to just be honest with Social security and just tell them if you've been using something and why? Because it's not that difficult for a qualified, knowledgeable social security representative to explain to the judge why you were using that substance and why that's not the reason you're disabled, that there's some other reason that you're disabled.That use of that substance was in some way a brand of [00:46:00] self-treatment. And in a lot of cases it is. . And then there are some cases where it's not, and you can tell that the person has a substance addiction and maybe that's their only impairment or their other impairments only surface when they're using substances.And and, and so that's, that's what that analysis is. It's trying to figure out what the core reason is for you being unable to work full time. De'Vannon: Okay. Thank you for that. And I wanna lean more into exactly what type of people these judges are. When we were, before getting ready for this interview, you were telling me, you know, these bitches make like 180 k a year.I don't remember if there's bonuses and stuff like that, but what, what was Spencer: the Probably, I don't know. I'm not a judge, but they probably have some kind of bonus. De'Vannon: But what was important to you? You told me that you said a lot of them were JAG officers and [00:47:00] and that stands for Judge Advocate General.These are people who were in the military, military officers. And so talk to me about the incompatibility, the incongruence the incongruency that you found in between how the health level and the age level of these judges versus the people who they're Spencer: judging. Yeah, so it's not everybody, but a lot of new newly hired judges, a lot of them are from the military because the whole federal government gives a, a preference, a hiring preference to veterans.I think it's the only group where when you're filling out an application for a federal job, your federal employment from the USA Jobs website, it's the only identified group that gets a hiring preference. And that's across the whole federal government. And so, of course, a job with social security, it's a federal agency, is no different.So there tend to be a lot of people who [00:48:00] were lawyers in the military or their lawyers and then maybe they were separately in the military and maybe they had another job in the military. But there are a lot of lawyers who have military service, either past service where they're veterans or maybe past plus current service where they're still in the reserves.And those people will apply to be ALJs, administrative law judges and social security. They'll hire people in their fifties, but they'd rather hire people in their forties so that they can train those people and then have those people working for them for 20 years instead of 10. So I noticed when I was working for Social Security, a lot of judges in their early to mid forties, a lot of judges with military service and if whatever branch of the military they're in, that means they're probably.Going to be fairly physically fit, probably they're not gonna have substantial health conditions because substantial health conditions usually keep you [00:49:00] out of the military. And so you get these young fit judges who like to get up at 5:00 AM who have multiple jobs because they might be judges, but they're also in the reserves and maybe they like, you know, go volunteer somewhere and they go to the gym for two hours a day.So they're physically fit, they're mentally fit, they're really active people. And then they have people coming in front of them who don't have a college degree, who have been working a really hard job where, you know, like construction work, working in a warehouse or nurses' assistants. Or like delivery people.I mean, sometimes we're at a gas station and we see like the pre, the people unloading drinks into the cooler and we don't think about how much they have to lift on a daily basis. Cause they're constantly lifting these [00:50:00] cases of beverages onto these carts. Mm-hmm. and people who have jobs like this, you know, where you're doing that 50 hours a week after 5, 10, 15 years, at some point you're either gonna have some kind of acute injury or your body's just gonna totally break down over time.And people come in and they're, they're in pain. Maybe that means they're on narcotic medications so they're not able to fully concentrate. They maybe have mental health impairments as well cause they can't work. So they're anxious and depressed. And these like, you know, super, the fittest people on the planet are standing up there.Sitting up there cuz they also have a sedentary sit down air conditioned job. Right. And they're literally passing judgment. Over people who have had a life that is totally different from theirs as far as education, upbringing, where they live, what kind of childhood they had, what kind of job training they've had, what kind of job opportunities they've [00:51:00] had, what kind of medical situations they're in, their lack of ability to get treatment.They have no health insurance. The judges have federal employee health plans. And so you get people, these judges who they're just, they're looking at people who they, a lot of times they can't identify with at all. And they're saying things like, well, I can work. Why can't that guy, I can't tell you how many times I heard that.When I would go and let's say the judge says it's the denial. And I look through the medical records and I go to the judge and I try and convince them that they should change that to an approval. Cause I can do that. The person writing the decision talks to the judge all the time. Talk through the evidence, talk about what they're seeing.Hey, maybe we should change this decision until it's signed. It's changeable. And I would go to talk to the judges all the time about like, look, there's this medical evidence and I, I think this guy has these opinions and I think that maybe we should consider paying this case. [00:52:00] And I would hear things like, well, I can work.Why can't he? Or, you know, I, I, I come to work, I, I I commute an hour a day each way that guy could do it. He's fine. And these aine statements that are detached from reality. And that's where I think the, the personalities and the upbringing and the medical situation of the judges comes into play. And I have observed that as judges get older, as they themselves experience certain medical conditions that come with age, like.Oh my, I threw out my back. I need to have back surgery. Or, you know, maybe now I, I, I hit 50, now I need glasses and I didn't use to before. Or something happens medically in their lives as they age. And you do, I, I would see that the judges start to get more sympathetic over time. They start to understand [00:53:00] pain, frustration, lack of mental acuity and they start to be able to sympathize more with the stories that they're being told and to say, yeah, you know, actually now I do believe this person, this person is 55 and, and they worked in a warehouse for 25 years and they threw their back out.And I can see on an MRI that their back is totally destroyed, and they're telling me they're in too much pain to work. I now have back pain myself. So now I get what they're saying. And so that does cause this disconnect between these like young fit judges who kind of come in swinging with denials and older, more seasoned judges who I think tend to be more sympathetic to people and have higher pay rates raise.Their pay rate tends to go up over time. De'Vannon: Okay. Okay. I'm gonna [00:54:00] ask you Spencer: So can I, can I just say one thing? Who your judge is, is something that you can't choose. You as I talk about in the book, there's certain things you can control and certain things you can't control and you can't control who your judge is.And the reason that's important is I wrote the book because I want people to understand. How to get through this process, regardless of who your judge is, regardless of how much of you know, how, how mu, how much difficulty the agency is gonna put you through everything that I've talked about so far.Let's assume you get every single one of these barriers put in your way. I want you to know what all of these barriers are so that you can navigate them. Even a low paying judge, that young fit military judge, maybe they're a 20% payer, but if they're paying 20% of their cases and they have five hearings today, that means statistically they're still gonna approve one of those five people today, right?And so I want you to [00:55:00] know how you can gather the right medical records and present the right case and h and have the right representative sitting with you and work together so that you can present to that judge a situation, a story. Where even the most hardcore, low paying fit military judge says, yeah, that's a pretty good presentation.I think we'll approve that one. I'll use my discretion to deny the next floor, but I don't feel like I have any discretion here. And that's what you wanna do, is you wanna take away that discretion. You wanna make those judges feel like There's nothing I can do about this. This is a solid case. I'm gonna approve this one, and I wanna give you the tools to be able to do that.And that's why I wrote the book. De'Vannon: So, so you mentioned it um, a 20% or so. Talk to us then about the like the approval rates and kind of like how these [00:56:00] judges are rated. And then I want you to tell that story about that one judge who they you know, I think they took like her telework away and they gave her like extra training or whatever.Spencer: Yeah, so the, there is, as we talked about earlier, you're not only a person, you're also a statistic, right? And so headquarters, cuz they're getting pressure for members of Congress and to testify, testify in front of congressional committees. And then that pressure just makes its way down the system to the individual judges.And so if the agency wants to pay fewer cases, if they're getting pressure, Hey, we're paying too many cases, let's pay fewer cases. And that pressure makes its way down to the judges. They're also pressured to pay fewer cases and they're, the judge will tell you, I'm an independent decision maker and I can make whatever decision I want and I'm not bound by any prior denials.And all of that is true and every judge has the authority to [00:57:00] approve any specific case. But they also are looking at the 50 cases for that month and thinking about how many. Do I wanna approve this month? Because I know if I approve too many, I might get hassled. And I knew a judge and I worked for a judge that had a fairly high pay rate and he kept getting hassled by, by his superiors, by the, the higher ups within the agency who basic, they didn't tell him you're paying too many cases because like they don't want that on the front page in the New York Times, right?But they would say things like, we think maybe you need extra training. Maybe you don't fully understand how our agency works. Maybe you don't fully understand the definition of disability, so we're gonna give you extra training. And they would like make him sit through hours and hours and hours of extra training that he didn't wanna do.That's annoying. And that's a pressure point, right? That's a way of [00:58:00] saying like, you know, we're gonna make you an offer. You can't refuse. You, you start denying more cases or there's gonna be consequences, but they don't use the word consequences. And yeah, as you said, I wrote for another judge and they took away her telework.People like working at home, we found that during the pandemic, right, and the judges can work from home, especially during the pandemic, when all the hearings, with telephone hearings, there's no reason why they can't work from home. And that my job, just writing and reviewing your medical records, which are all on the computer, we can all work from home.And so the pressure point for that judge, they knew she liked working from home. So that pressure point was, you do what we need you to do, where we're gonna take away your telework. And so while the judge tells you they're an independent decision maker, you have to understand that they're looking at your specific records, but they're also thinking about themselves.The judges are human. They're thinking about their, [00:59:00] their salary, their health insurance benefits. They don't wanna get fired. They also don't wanna get transferred. They don't wanna be hassled. And so, you know, they're public servants, but of course, even public servants are thinking about their own wellbeing and their own job and their own families.And so when that pressure comes down on them from above, they're gonna, they're gonna react to it and and a fairly reasonable way and in the way that the management wants them to. So that does also happen. I wrote a lot of favorable decisions when I worked for Social Security. I, I just wanna make sure as we get near the end here, and as we conclude, I want people to understand I did write a lot of favorable decisions.But I noticed certain things about those cases. I noticed how well those medical records were put together, how those medical opinions were worded, how those representatives that represented those people presented that case. And so I know with this large [01:00:00] sample size of cases, I have some idea of the things that work, even with low paying judges, the things that can work to get an approval and the things that don't work or the things that people don't do that they should do when they're presenting their case.And so, and that's, that's what really made me say, I need to write a book. I need to get all this knowledge that I have on paper and out to the general public. Because some of this isn't necessarily publicly known information, but it's not necessarily trade secrets either. Right? The law is a certain way and the law defines disability a certain way.And a lot of this is just education that social security doesn't provide you. They're not telling you how to present your disability case, but over time, I've seen the things that work. And so I wanted to present this educational guide to let people know, here are the things that you can do to [01:01:00] present your case in a way to give yourself the best possible chance of success.De'Vannon: And I think you've done quite well, you know, a very good job at doing that. Talk a little bit about like, especially for veterans, you know, since I'm a veteran, just to kind of like talk about that a little bit, you know.Spencer: So just we can cover that real quick. The, the way the VA decides if someone's disabled is different from Social Security because the VA is not only looking at whether your medical conditions are connected to your service, whereas social security doesn't care why your impairments occurred. They are.But the VA also then asks about whether what your fitness is to return to some kind of military duty. And so there are a lot of veterans that will get a hundred percent service connected rating because their impairments are connected to their service and they're found to not be able to return to whatever their military duty was.Asks, can you [01:02:00] do any job in the national economy? And so there are a lot of judges who will see a hundred percent service connected disability for a veteran and just say, okay, that's enough for me. I'm gonna find them disabled. But I wrote a lot of denials for people who at 80, 90, a hundred percent service connected ratings.And it's because even though they couldn't do military duty, they could do other work in the national economy like being a cashier and. There is somewhat of a disconnect between the definitions and the two systems, and that's why it's really important for veterans or military families to also understand how social securities rules operate.Because you can't assume that just because you're a veteran and that maybe your judge is a veteran, you can't assume that's gonna help you out. Actually, again, I wrote decisions for judges who are veterans who looked at a veteran claimant with a hundred percent rating and said, well, I'm a veteran and I can work, so why can't he [01:03:00] and denied those claims.So you have to know the system, you have to know the rules, and you have to know how things work within the Social Security disability system. You can't just assume because you're a veteran or because you have a hundred percent rating that things are gonna work out well for you when you get in front of the social security.De'Vannon: Okay, well there you have it. Y'all's website is visions publishing.com. The social medias of Facebook, Twitter, , Instagram. Of course, all of this is going to go in the show notes, as it always does. So as always with my guests, I'd like to let you have the last word. I thank you so much for your time today, Spencer.Are there any final closing remarks you'd like to say? Spencer: I just wanna say we, we've gone over like the first part of the subtitle today, right? A lot of why it's so hard to access benefits. But I just wanna conclude on a more positive note with the second half of the subtitle, which is what you can do about it.There are specific strategies, there are ways you can get around things. At the [01:04:00] beginning I talked about how Social security will send you to see this doctor who's being paid to say you're not disabled. Well, there are strategies that you can use to counter. That you have to go to that exam. But there are ways that you can get evidence to counteract that medical opinion that do work.There are things that you can present in your medical record or ways that you can testify at the hearing. There are strategies that you can use to try and convince even the lower paying judges that you're not disabled, that you can't work full-time, but they're not things that you would necessarily think.For example, people think like, oh, if I try and work part-time, that might hurt my disability claim. It actually helps your disability claim. So if someone's a disability claimant and you see them working, they might be working because they're representative has told them, this will help your disability claim.And I explain why that is in the book. So don't make assumptions and don't take anything. Social [01:05:00] Security tells you at face value. They're not there to help you. They're not on your side, they're not on your team. They're. They're really there. The Social Security disability system is trying to keep people out and trying to deny as many people as they can so that they can have those benefits for people who are collecting retirement later on.So be your own advocate. Get your own information, educate yourself, hire a good representative, and use the strategies that I'm teaching you about and they will. I can't guarantee you'll be approved, but I can say that these strategies are what you need to give yourself the best possible chance of being approved, even if you get a lower paying judge.De'Vannon: All right, there y'all have it. The name of the book is Social Security Disability Revealed, why it's so Hard to Access Benefits and What You Can Do about It. Thank you [01:06:00] so much, Spencer. Spencer: Thank you for having me.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right.  

INTRODUCTION: Barry Bowen is the Staff Investigator at Trinity Foundation, a nonprofit organization that investigates religious fraud, theft and excess. From 2005 to 2010 Bowen served as one of the third-party whistleblowers assisting the U.S. Senate in its investigation of six TV ministries.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):  ·      Explanation Of IRS Forms 990 & 990T·      The Cora Jakes-Coleman Potter's House Sex Scandal·      Bisexual Televangelists ·      Do You REALLY Know Your Pastor?·      Insight Into The Bible Translations Industry ·      Pastors Paying Pastors aka “Honorariums”·      Church Music As A Business·      Church Of God In Christ (C.O.G.I.C.) Tom Foolery·      How The Church Is Like The ‘World'·      Revelation Chapter 18 CONNECT WITH BARRY: Website: https://trinityfi.orgTwitter: https://twitter.com/barrybowen  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Barry Bowen Part 3[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Barry Bowen, staff investigator at the Trinity Foundation is back with me for the third time. Y'all. Trinity Foundation investigates churches and televangelists and stuff like that, and so Barry Bowen. The perfect fit for my show. Now, in this episode, we discussed the financial trail found within the Bible translation industry, and we're talking about millions of dollars people, millions, we're gonna talk about child molesting, [00:01:00] televangelist, atheist preachers who don't even believe a word they fucking preach. And so much more. Y'all, when I say I can't even, I mean I can not even. Please listen to this episode and share it with someone you love. And feel free to reach out to me with any comments that you might have.I'm curious to hear what you have to say.Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. My name is Devana and I am so glad that you decided to join me again on the day. I've got my homeboy, Barry Bowen back with me again, and we are here to break all the religious teeth down for you.And so the last time I had you on the show, We were talking about all these different churches and everything, and when we left we were gonna do like a Lakewood follow up. And so we, we, I know you've requested some information from the irs, they refused to [00:02:00] give it to you, so we're still waiting to get a lot of that.We did find out that they just started following their nine 90 tees back in like 2018. So basically we are still waiting for information on them, but can you explain everyone what a nine 90 T is? Barry: The irs requires non-profit organizations that have $1,000 or more an unrelated business income to file this Form nine 90 T.The income can be taxed and there are certain loopholes to the tax. The weirdest loophole in my opinion is rental income. So if a church is renting a facility and then they use that. Property for an outside event and they get money for, for it. It's taxable income if they own the building outright and do outside events [00:03:00] there and are paid for it.It's not taxable. It, it's really weird how the system works. But regular non-profits have to file a form called a nine 90, which is separate from the nine 90 T. There are different versions of it. One's called a postcard nine 90. That's for organizations with, I believe, $50,000 or less than revenue.Then there is a nine 90 easy form, which is for organizations with 50, more than $50,000 to under, I think $200,000. And anything more than that was the regular nine 90. And so a regular nine 90. They will disclose this kind of information in it. De'Vannon: And so we shall see in the future, you know, how transparently liquid gets so far we've been unable to attain, obtain their, their true income.[00:04:00] Though there has been some articles published, unlike their spending, but not so much on the income breakdown. So we shall see as time goes on. Did you hear about over at the, over at the Potter's house, the the the sex ring scandal with Jake's daughter, Cora? Barry: Yes. . De'Vannon: What are your thoughts?Because years ago, his son was caught up in some kind of sex shit too. And so now, We're talking about T Jake's son was caught up in some kind of sex bullshit too. And now his, as I understand it, the, the daughter core Jake's Coleman and the her husband was apparently running them holes. , what do you Barry: I have a friend who's following it very closely behind the scenes and she is like, and not in [00:05:00] shock because she knows how corrupt some of these people can be.And there have been a number of sex predators in the church. It's a tragic thing. It really does happen. What happens is churches try to be a place where people are trusted and where you can parents can trust their children to be Watched and not harmed. We know that in some cases that's not what happens.They do get harmed. Cora has, I believe, filed for divorce. I think she has, I haven't followed this it that closely. I don't know what she knew and when she started knowing it, but [00:06:00] often in the case of when these type of sex scandals happen in a church, they try to get the parents of victims to sign out of court agreements with confidentiality clauses.They try to buy their silence. So, and that's the one of the main ways of churches tried to handle these scandals. Now, that's not legal by the. What you're supposed to do is, it's supposed to be reported to law enforcement. Pastors are considered mandatory reporters. So when you have a sex scandal in a church and you report it to church staff, by law, they're supposed to contact law enforcement.De'Vannon: Well, the divorce is not going to absolve her of any guilt or clear her name or un muddy her name or anything. It's too late for that . [00:07:00]Barry: So, yeah. I attended a church years ago. There was a, where there was a sex scandal and it was tragic. I mean, I did not expect this person to do those kind of things. And he abused a young boy and that was, there were people that stopped attending church because of it.The police. So what happened is, in this case, the church cooperated with authorities and they did not try to rehabilitate him as in trying to provide a new church job for him or anything like that. I mean, in my opinion, a a sexual predator should never be hired by a church. De'Vannon: Well, the Catholic church didn't get that [00:08:00] memo.At least this church seemed like maybe they have some type of a soul. But I'd like to point out is that. , you know, these people who are doing this are not members of the BT Q I A plus community. You know, cuz these churches always trying to act like we're working around, they're trying to rape and molest their boys and everything like that, you know.But when it actually comes out, it's men who are married to women, men who identify as straight, or in case of mis cho, she's female herself. And you know, if fatt is true, then honey, then she was in there doing the dip too and fucking with these children. So we'll see what comes out in court Barry: when, and as an investigator of televangelist and other religious organizations, we get all kinds of tips and one of the things that I have learned is when a person has zero self-control in the area of [00:09:00] money, they usually have no self-control in other areas of their lives, including their sexuality.We have seen a large number of televangelists that are bisexual. I'm not about to out a bunch of people, but there are tons of rumors. Lots of them and almost all of 'em are credible. There is one that I wanna talk about though. There is a televangelist now deceased who in the 1990s, a TV network decided to do a TV expose on him.And I'll tell you who it is, after I finished telling you this story the a TV network decided they wanted to launch a new investigative one hour TV show a competitor to 60 Minutes. And this would've been one of their first TV shows. And so they started investigating a [00:10:00] televangelist and he was involved sexually with a male judge.Yes, you heard that, correct? Mm-hmm. this TV expose would've been a blockbuster. They had cameramen going into gay bars. There was employees of the organization going to gay bars. It was a wild story. But it was, or Roberts founder of, or Roberts University, the famous healing evangelist of the 1950s and later he was involved with a male judge.De'Vannon: None of this surprises. Barry: The, the, what happened was he had a health problem. I can't remember if it was a stroke. [00:11:00] Some type of a me medical emergency almost died, and this was right before the TV expose was scheduled to air. And what I think is happened is they canceled the program and I think it may have been induced by stress.He knew this expose was gonna come out. But yeah, there's, that's one of the wildest stories. But I mean, there are others that we've heard of. I mean, there's there are rumors about different televangelist committing rape. There's one case I know about that the records got sealed. I think it's a protective order or something that, so they, the results can't be disclosed.I can't drop a name or anything. But the allegations were. Absolutely horrendous. De'Vannon: Well, everyone just remember, you don't really [00:12:00] know your preachers. And for all the photo ops and all the social media visits, I remember, I think when Joel and Victoria Oing would go visit Earl Roberts and it was this whole media production thing.What I always wonder is what do these televangelist talk about when they were around each other? When the cameras turn off? Because whenever they're in front of a camera, they're at work. That is a version of them. They're selling no matter who they are. In all of television, it's the same thing. So I try to encourage people to remember that you don't know you're a preacher.You're not sitting down having dinner and you doing cocaine or whatever the fuck it is you like to do with him. Like you don't really know what the fuck he does when he is not around you or who he really is. So oral robber's, fucking the shit out of this judge. At least he had enough sense to go for power , you know?You know, and so, so this, none of this surprises me. And so, okay. I wanted to talk a lot today about the [00:13:00] Bible translations industry. This is super duper important because so many people read the Bible and then they tell their life off of what they perceive it to mean. Preachers try to control their congregations through the Bible and so much, you know, politicians, especially Republicans, try to make policy in everything based off of what they believe the Bible mean.So much stuff revolves around the Bible. And so I wanted to get into the finances behind the Bible. It's a very interesting thing to me because the Bible is, we know, came from the Middle East at some point. Oh, king James decided he wanted to make an interpretation of. There's a documentary on the Discovery Plus channel right now called The Book of Queer, where they go over queer people from history who we didn't know were queer.Abraham Lincoln, this certain Pharaoh, [00:14:00] and King James himself of the King James version. According to this documentary, he was a big old queer girl and it didn't matter, you know, what he put in there, but he was fucking around with boys too. So of course, in, you know, people from Europe come over here, start fucking with the indigenous people and whatever, and they bring their religion, their Catholicism, or whatever the hell you know, they had.So now we're here in present day in the, in. This Bible is just everywhere, all over the world, and people don't really, in my opinion, treated with respect. Like it actually came from the Middle East and that we're actually worshiping a God that was originally not our own. So this, this ownership of it. It seems like a bastard bastardization of its value to me.Now, in a blog you wrote or something I found on your website, which will go in the show notes, I believe you said that there's an estimated [00:15:00] 500 million per year in the Bible translation industry. Barry: We reprinted an article from Ministry Watch. The author of the story is Warren Cole Smith. Warren Cole.Smith has written for World Magazine. He's worked for the Colson Center. He's a very credible investigative reporter. He's written a book, faith-Based Fraud. And so we've looked into religious organizations involved in publication of Bibles. He's done a very thorough dive into them and. So he wrote that a half a billion dollars annually is spent on a revenue, goes to these organizations involved in translating the Bible.But I wanna go back a few centuries before the printing press. Bibles were handwritten. It would take a [00:16:00] scribe a long time to hand write the Bible. And when Gutenberg invented his printing press, he was able to speed up the process big time. A lot of people don't know this, but one of the first things he printed was indulgences for the Catholic church so people could buy their forgiveness all way out of purgatory.So that was one of the first things he printed. The. The printing press allowed a lot more access to the scriptures. And before the printing press, I'm sorry, before the printing press, people were generally oral learners. They learned by hearing. For example, in the in Islam, there are people [00:17:00] that will memorize the entire Quran and word for word, they'll be able to memorize the entire thing.And often they will lead in prayers at the mosque. That was the way of preserving it from generation to generation is is by knowing it by heart, by memorizing it. For Christianity. There, there's even a Bible verse and that says, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So again, throughout most history, people learn by hearing.It was with the printing press that allowed people to have access and read for and study for themselves, and which is a huge development in the intellectual development of human kind. So in the [00:18:00]England, there was a man named John Woodcliff, I believe he was in England. He decided to translate, no was Tin decided to translate the Bible into English and he was actually put to death for it.The Catholic church had one translation Latin Vulgate. I think Jerome was the name of the translator. So the Bible was originally written in Hebrew, in Latin. Jesus spoke Aramaic. That was another language used in in Israel. If you study languages Greek is a very precise language. So we say the word love well, they have multiple words for love.Feel for like a friendly type, love agape, love for pure type love, ero, erotic type love. So [00:19:00]because of the preciseness of of Greek, it's easier to translate certain things. So when the printing press happened, Gutenberg did his first print run of the Bible. Wealthy people in Europe were able to buy Bibles for the first time often, and other publishers started building their own printing presses and they started publishing the Bible as well.In some cases there were crazy mistakes made. There was one Bible that when they, they did the printing plates, there was a mistake. And for like one of the 10 commandments, instead of saying dalt, not the word not was accidentally left out, I think it said Dalt committed adultery. The publisher was arrested and imprisoned.[00:20:00]So we started seeing the beginnings of the Bible publishing business. In the late 14 hundreds I believe, or early 15 hundreds. And eventually there were organizations, missionary organizations started to try to make disciples around the world. In the 18 hundreds, late 17 hundreds, early 18 hundreds, there was a Christian named William Wilberforce.He worked with the London Missionary Society and several other societies to do these type of projects. Then you start seeing America start starting to play a big role in this area, in the 18 hundreds, especially the 19 hundreds. The American Bible Society is, I believe, the largest.[00:21:00] Organization, them and wla Bible translators are two of the biggest organizations in Bible translation, especially Woodcliff. And there is a, like a federation, a group of organizations that they work together. According to Warren's research it costs approximately $30 million to complete a Bible translation.One of the problems is some of these languages it's not so easy to do. You don't necessarily have a font for them, a typeface for them. So if you sit down at a computer there are some languages that are oral only. So when, when they do a translation, it's an oral translation, they will use a microphone, they'll record verse by verse.But, but the they're, they're building databases that help speed up the process. [00:22:00] And the, the process is slowly moving forward. But because it's so, they, they, these bible translators, sometimes when they're questioned about the effectiveness of their work it's really hard for them to be able to answer in a forthright manner.When you're doing ministry, you want it to be effective, you want measurable results. And in the case of Bible publishers, a completed Bible translation is a key metric. Well, how many translations can you produce in a. I believe there are approximately 700 languages waiting to be the scriptures waiting to be translated to them or it's 700, no, I'm sorry.It's 700 [00:23:00] languages I've been translated from Bible times till now. Sorry. Got my figures wrong. It's a lot of work to be done and I think people need to be held accountable. So when it comes to translating the scriptures, one of the things that Uff Bible translators will do is they may send a missionary to an area so that they can learn the language.That's the first thing. You have to know a language before you can translate the Bible into the language. And the next problem is what if they don't have words for certain things? Imagine an Indian tribe would they have a word for the, for sword? Would they have a word for chariot? If [00:24:00]they'd never used chariots before, they would not have a word for it.Well, how would you translate that? Or is there several words that you could use to describe a cart pulled by a horse that would be used in warfare? I mean, so you're trying to figure out some things. It, it's a lot of mental work to it. The money often goes from one organization to another organization.So they will give grants to another organization to support a translation in another language. And. How effective is the organization they're working with? Does that organization file a form nine 90? Do they disclose it? When you look at these organizations, you can see what their salaries are. [00:25:00] You can go to an faa flight registry and look to see if they own any aircraft.If they own jets, it's typically not a good use of donor money. But I mean, there's a lot of key metrics to look at to try to figure out if an organization is being frugal with the money that's given to them. Do you De'Vannon: know who like if a certain person owns, they like the new living Bible or I mean, I mean the Living Bible or the, the New Living translation or the word Bible, like all of those different versions that we have in English.Does somebody own each of those? Barry: I would say in some cases, companies do. Publishers would, sometimes you can have a publisher that creates their own English language translation. So Zondervan [00:26:00] they are the copyright holder for the niv, the new international version. The King James is so old that copyright is expired.Anybody can print a King James Bible. De'Vannon: Cause what I'm wondering is like, so say Zondervan and I've seen their name, you know, in a, in NIV Bibles before, but I never knew what it meant till now. You know? So are they making royalties off of this every time it's sold or downloaded? That you know of. Barry: There are websites.Uverse is one of the biggest ones. They have a Bible. They've created a Bible app, so you can download a Bible app to your phone and it's free. They're another popular new translation is the esv, the English standard version. [00:27:00] And esv bible.org thinks their website and you can actually listen to the, to it or read it on their website for free without even buying a print version.But in some cases they, in the past, they would sell the Bible on dvd. There's one one Bible that there's an oral version of it. It's read by famous actors. They read different chapters of the Bible. The, the way this works is the, sometimes it'll be an academic effort. You'll have translators from different colleges, Christian seminaries.These are professors. They're, they're experts in biblical languages. So they've spent their life [00:28:00] studying the Hebrew and Greek. And so they'll be put on a committee, and so they will work on a Bible translation. This is actually how the NIV was done. They had a committee a working group that oversaw the translation, so.And then what happened was, there was, there was, I don't remember the guy's name, but you can actually look up a lot of these translations in Wikipedia, for example, and you can find out the history of that translation. But there was, there was a guy that, he used the King James, but did not like it. He did not like the old English, and he wanted a more modern, more current English version.And so he was the person that got the ball rolling on, on doing the niv for for college [00:29:00]students working on a, on a, getting a PhD, becoming a doctorate. Getting a doctorate degree. Sometimes they study biblical languages and if they work on a Bible translation that looks great on their resume.So they often do the work. De'Vannon: I wonder who, even in modern day times, you know, when these people are setting down to translate the Bible, are they making sure that there's proper representation? Do you have people of all races, all ethnic backgrounds, all sexual orientation backgrounds? My feeling is that, that that's not quite the case because, you know, when I read through so many different Bible translations and stuff like that, it's like I don't, I don't really, [00:30:00] there's just like, like you were saying, like there's not some words that exist, you know, like from, from Arab may that translate, you know, to English.But tho that's the same for even like current. Like, how can I say this? Like contemporary languages. So like whenever, like whenever I'm in Japan, you know, my friend lives over there and sometimes I go over there to visit her and everything and, and I'll be like, well, how do you say this? And she'll go like, well, we, we don't say that over here.That's just not a part of our culture. That's just not what we do. You know? And so, and that's, and that's for a nation that's currently like alive right now. And so, so what her point to me is like, don't think this because you do this in America, that someone, that they do that everywhere else, all over the globe because it may not be a part of their culture.And so I feel like there is a cultural lack when it comes to [00:31:00] biblical interpretation because not everybody is at the table. So if you have a whole room full of white conservative people, you know, interpreting the Bible, you know, then I feel like that's the reason why we have a. Women, you know, feeling discredited from the way they're described in the Bible and, you know, in other races just completely, you know, left out and oit it and things like that.But do you know anything about, at these organizations actually, who is in there doing it? And if there's like true diversity? Barry: I haven't done a thorough study of that. Original bible translations were generally done by conservative believers. People that I don't wanna say they had an agenda. They their goal was to make the Bible available so that other people could know it better could learn, [00:32:00] could learn the language.Could learn what the Bible to say in their own language. So in the Catholic Church, they used a Latin version of the Bible. That was why their masses were spoken in Latin. And it was done that way in the Catholic church for centuries. So during the Reformation period, you had a number of people try to translate the Bible into other languages making it a language of the people.And some cases it'd be one person doing the translation work. It wasn't a committee. John Woodcliff Tindel, Martin Luther, they primarily, I did their, their bible translation work alone, I believe. Mm-hmm. . Things have obviously changed. But even in the 19 hundreds, there was one, there have been a couple of guys that have done one.Basically, one person has authored a Bible translation or [00:33:00] transcript, or not transcript a paraphrase. For example, the Living Bible is a paraphrase. So a paraphrase is taking a, reading a verse and basically putting it into your own words. That's a paraphrase. When it comes to translations, there is a word for word and there's thought for thought, a word for word.You'd read one word and then you try to translate it into one word, the closest that would translate to that. And a word, a thought for thought. You try to take the thought represented and put it into the same thought. Give you an example in one verse in the Bible, Jesus said, asking it shall be given you seeking.You shall find, knock on the door shall be opening to you. If you read that verse in the Greek, it has a verb tense that we don't really have. It's a continuous action. So when you [00:34:00] read some modern translations of that verse, it says, keep on asking and it'll be given to you. Keep on seeking and you'll find, keep on knocking and the door will be open into you.So I mean, that gives you an idea how a translation works. So, but getting back to your original question the people doing these studies, I don't think they were really concerned a lot with diversity when they first started doing translation work. I think that would be a more recent development. There have been some women that have worked on Bible translations Historically it's been mostly men doing it, the work.Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: But what I'm thankful for is this, is that, you know, knowledge is so much at our fingertips in this day and time that we can go online, we can get our own books, we can interpret the, you know, as much of the original language of the [00:35:00] Bible as we can find, you know, for ourselves. And so it's as painstaking as that may be.And it is not easy because I do it myself. So I like to employ this whenever there's a, a scripture of contests, like, say like the club of passages that the conservative like to use to tell people in my community or we're gonna burn in hell cuz we're not straight, you know, or if there's a script or someone's trying to use to justify slavery or the demeaning of women and stuff like that.And so, you know, I don't go in through the painstaking task of trying to interpret Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Unless it's something that's like a big deal like that and somebody's trying to act like, oh, I absolutely know what this scripture means and there's no other way to look at it, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.And then I go in there myself, and I, and I come up with a different interpretation. And, and the whole point, the whole, the whole thing of that I get out of why we have so many of these different translations is [00:36:00] that the, is that it is such, it's just so subjective. And my whole point of diving into this is to is to get people off of the, the dependency that we can develop on any certain one translation and for God's sakes, not a person's translation.So I wanted people to know there is actually a money trail behind this. And so I feel like that that affects the way it's interpreted. And so, People can draw their own conclusions. I'm a fan of, of interpreting it myself because at this point I don't really trust what anyone has to say about the Bible.You know, I wanna, I just wanna know for myself and when we're reading an interpretation, it's important to us to know that humans interpret it. That, you know, and whatever English is print in English is not the original text. Barry: One of my favorite things is there's a website Bible hub, and they will take one verse and then list, show it in [00:37:00] a bunch of different Bible translations.So you can, like Young's literal translation and, and King James and English Standard version and the New Living Translation. So you can see the different word choices that are used. There are a lot of people that like to see how a favorite verse is translated into different script and different.Uses different word choices. So for me, as a investigative religious fraud, one of my favorite Bible verses a second Timothy I'm sorry, second Peter two verse three, in the King James version, it's talking about these false teachers and it says they will make merchandise of us, of, of people.Basically the idea is they've turned, they turned the church into a marketplace. That's what Jesus noticed when he went into the temple and threw out the money changers. They had turned it into a business, a [00:38:00] marketplace. And you read that same verse in the New Living translation. It's hilarious. It says, and they're greed.They will make a clever lies to get hold of your money. The verses are worded very differently, but I agree 100% with both . De'Vannon: Well, that brings me to my next point. I wanted to talk about two things. These honorariums, they call them, that preachers pay each other when they go to preach at different churches.And then the licensing of music, we'll start with the licensing of music. I personally, as a music writer, I kind of have a problem with the way this seems to be done in churches. So like, if you're gonna, so say if Hillsong Church is gonna create this album, you're gonna license it. And then in order for another church to use it, they're gonna sell it to them.Like, I think another church has to buy the [00:39:00] rights and things like that to use this music. And so for my perspective, if, if God gives me a song, and this is all supposed to be, you know, divinely inspired and everything like that, I feel bad about taking this song and saying, Hey you church, you can use my worship song, but you have pay me first.You know, now if it's a radio station, some sort of syndicated broadcast, that's different to me because that's not like a house of worship where people feel like they need to go. You know, you're listening to the radio or whatever you're streaming, that's on iTunes. I'm okay with that business model for worship music, but charging churches, you know, to do it.I think that that's fucked up. Barry: It is a business. So there is, there's different kinds of rights. There's copyright, there's performance rights, there's [00:40:00] broadcast rights, and there are companies that manage all these different kinds of rights. There have been churches sued for having performed songs for and didn't pay for appropriate license.churches have been sued. I mean, and so that's why it's become a business. Trying to, I lost my train of thought for a moment. Okay. So I took a media law class in college. That was one of the things that we had to learn about was copyright. And copyright has an expiration date. It's changed over the years.So I believe now it's like it expires a certain number of years after the original author dies. And if the [00:41:00] person lives a very long life, it can expire at a very, a long distance into the future. The, there's an organization, creative Commons, creative commons.org is, I believe, their website.They wanted to. Create a movement for the allow of resharing of information. And so they created a number of licenses and these are alternatives to regular copyright. So the way that the US copyright law is written, if you write something, you're the original copyright holder. It can get complicated.If you're hired by a church and you do what's called a work for hire, then the copyright can belong to the church. But for Creative Commons, they created a [00:42:00] public domain license. This is a work would then be in the public domain. Anybody could use it for whatever purpose. They, you could take their lyrics or their music rewrite, rewrite it.Remix it, whatever, and for free, there's no payments required. They have what's called an attribution license where people can use, reuse your original content as long as they give attribution. And so this is often used by photographers. For example, they'll post their pictures online with, at attribution license.Then you can use their photos to illustrate an article that you write and you just credit the photographer. There are licenses that provide for share and share alike. There are some that are for non-commercial only use. [00:43:00] So, and they give you a wide range of, of ways to work with content. And I believe that's a better model than what we're seeing right now.There's a guy named Carl Entz, who I believe we discussed in a previous podcast. He was a preacher at Hillsong. His dad Steven Entz, wrote a book, the Business of Church, and he wrote about copyright. And he suggested that a pastor could could, well normally the church would own the copyright of a sermon.The pastor be a work for a hire, what he says. But what he said that you could also, a pastor could license their sermons to the church. And so I don't feel very good about that. I think when you start doing stuff like that, then you preaching becomes about what can make the most money, [00:44:00]what can you sell the most?And worship music has become big business. Nowadays, fewer people are buying. Albums. Well actually LPs have seen a big increase in sales. It's weird. Who has seen a increase in sales albums? LPs records have had a increase in sales. I think it's people in nostalgia for old albums collectors buying them on vinyl.But a lot of people would buy a song from iTunes or instead of entire album. So records have become a big business. Or the, or gospel worship. Worship music become a big business in the church. Hillsong has made a lot of money. [00:45:00] I believe they sold 20 million albums. That's the Celtic I've seen for Hill.De'Vannon: I don't know this, it's something with this like, like what you're saying with this merchandising and you know, and everything like that, you know, it seems so innocent. Oh, we're just gonna sell a few things and, you know, the way they package it and, you know, in church, you know, here take this sermon homes, you can listen to it again and again and still be blessed and you know, get this book, get this, you know, get these conferences.You know, I used to be a member of the Church of God in Christ, and I had, I reached out to the headquarters. I wanted to go overseas and do a missions working, something like that, you know, and it was very, the missions page on their, on the international headquarters website [00:46:00] didn't have anything there.And so I emailed them. , I got informa, I think I got as far as to the gatekeeper for like the, the bishop maybe, you know, of the, of the whole hand of the whole church of God, Christ. And then they like just stopped responding because I couldn't, you know, I wanted to go do missions. I think there was a way that they would fund it or something like that, but it didn't seem like they really wanted to do it.What they did have up to date though, was their page that had all of their conferences coming up, you know, the speakers and all of that. And I just thought that that was pretty shitty because I'm like, you are always sending these preachers here and there and raising this money, but when I'm trying to talk to you about philanthropy in humanitarian efforts, that's gonna cost you money, then the line went cold, , you know, and so, and and there's a verse in the book of Revelation that has always stuck out to me is in Revelation chapter 18.[00:47:00]And it starts around, you know, verse 10 ish. And this is talking about when they say Babylon, the great is fall. And there's all kinds of different interpretation of what, what they think Babylon means. Is it you know this or is it that? I think Babylon stands for a great many forms of corruption of humanity, but I'm gonna read this anyway.And it says, in the kings of the earth, who have committed for occasion and lived deliciously with her shall BeWell her and lament her when they shall see the smoke of her burning. Standing a far off for the fear for a torment, saying, alas will last that great city, Babylon, that mighty city for in one hour is your judgment come And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her for no man buys their merchandise anymore.The merchandise of gold and silver and precious stones and of pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet and all thy wood and all manner of vessels of ivory and all [00:48:00] manner vessels of most precious wood and of brass and iron and marble and cinnamon and odors and ointments and frankincense and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and beasts and sheep and horses and chariots and slaves and souls of men.And I just thought it was very interesting after listing this really, really, really long list of material things that it ends unlike humanitarian issues and the destruction of people. So as we're talking about all of this buying and trading and selling in the temple, I personally feel like from the churches to like a lot of these social media companies and things like that, and they're haste to make money and then they're greed and stuff like that.They're sacrificing people in the process. And I think that, that this verse is talking that these verses that I just [00:49:00] read are talking about that. But what do you think about the, what I just read Barry: There is different ways of interpreting the book of Revelation. It's very fascinating. So it deals with end times.A word for that is eschatology study. End times. And basically the Bible teaches that wickedness is gonna bound. People's hearts grow cold because of, of wickedness lawlessness of people and because of hypocrisy. And because of that, God will eventually pour out his wrath upon mankind and there will be punishment for sin.And there will, people have made commerce [00:50:00] an idol. They've made the entertainment industry an idol, social media and idol, all these kind of things, idols, they put ahead of God and things that they hold dear have become idols and they will see their idols destroyed. That's one of the ways that I see that passage.The. Experience that you had with Koji? With the conferences, I actually wrote an article about the these conference businesses the hum the speaking fees of honorariums. And I think there's a legitimate need and opportunity for people to network. A conference can be a great place to network and meet people.I've gone to film festivals, for [00:51:00] example. I previously worked in the film industry years ago, and so going to a film festival, you meet lots of like-minded people. You meet writers, filmmakers, actors, actresses people that wanna get their start in the industry. And so, You meet people and develop friendships that way, and then you go see their movie on when they have a movie coming out, and I know them.So it, it's a different experience than seeing a movie by nobody, you know. And so I do enjoy the aspects of networking. I've been to conferences before and that was my favorite part about it. But for the motive of the people throwing on the conference, what is their motive? And we know that like not this week, but the previous week so this would've been around the end of July [00:52:00] or beginning of August, my mind's have gone.Kenneth Copeland had his conference it's called the Southwest Believes Convention, and. It was in Fort Worth, Texas. Televangelist like Jesse de Plans would fly into Fort Worth to preach and then fly back to where he is from, and then the next day, fly right back to Fort Worth and then fly back to new Orleans.I don't think he likes to stay in hotels. Just a theory I have. Why would a person make multiple trips to day after day? It's weird to me cause those are, those trips, those flights cost thousands of dollars and but to put on a convention like that, you have to bring in a lot of money to pay for all those [00:53:00]speakers.And if you're doing that, then do you pay for their transportation? Do you pay for their jet to fly? I mean, that could have been 20,000, $40,000. I don't know. I'm guessing at a bare minimum it costs $20,000 for all those flights. I mean, you have to pay for the fuel, you have to pay for the pilots.And that's just an unnecessary expense. The conference business I think it's a lot of gamemanship. You speak at my conference and I'll speak at yours. So it's a way of self-promoting each other. I wrote an article about honorariums. It's on the Trinity Foundation website, and I, I looked at nine 90 s for non-profit organizations.[00:54:00] Sometimes they will disclose honorarium revenue. Sometimes they'll disclose honorarium expenses. So for example, some pastors or or ministry leaders, They speak at a location, but you have to pay 'em a speaking fee of their organization. So that's revenue to the organization. And so that's how that shows up.For honorary expenses, sometimes like when you host a conference, you're paying an outside speaker and they list that on their statement of expenses page. There are organizations that will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in honorariums. In the past, TBN did that, that have special guests for their beon and for some of their a praise the Lord broadcasts.And so they would spend literally, I think in some cases, over $700,000 a year on speaking honorariums. De'Vannon: I know when I was at one church in Southern California, they, you know, they had a speaker there, they already paid for her to come down. [00:55:00] They decided they want her to stay for one more sermon. And they were like, we'll give her $10,000 to, to preach again, you know, for one more hour or whatever.And of course she was like, yes, Lord. You know, and everything like that. And the highest I saw them go was maybe like 30,000, you know, now we're talking about for one sermon for about an hour. You know, to me that's exorbitant because it was US tithing, you know, and paying for them. It's not like the preacher was doing that.So what you're saying is Right, so these preachers have this whole brotherhood or whatever to include the sisters too. And they're like, okay, you got your church, I got mine. We're gonna come speak at each other's church, and we're gonna pay each other about 10 to 30,000 each. Right. Cool. And so , now the.Barry: The craziest thing I've heard of is a seed twice. So this is how I consider it a scam. The seed twice. [00:56:00] So Kenneth Copeland does this. You give him, wait, he gives your ministry a donation and then you give him a donation. It's a seed twice. So , you're getting your money back. , in some De'Vannon: cases. Wait, say that Barry: again?they call it a seed twice. Some you donate to one organization and then that organization donates back to you.De'Vannon: which organization? His, he's talking about his church. Barry: Yeah. Eagle Mountain International Church. It's also known as Kenneth Copeland Ministries. But yeah, he does this C twice zone thing. He gives donations to different organizations and then they give him a donation.De'Vannon: I don't get it. So he's gonna do, so he's personally donating to another church. His Barry: organization gives a donation, his church donates to an organization, and that [00:57:00]donation, that organization donates back to him. What's the point? You get your money back. It looks great on, Hey, we spent this amount of money on ministry, but you're getting your money backThat's what it looks De'Vannon: like to me. So it, so Kenneth Cole Ministry is gonna donate a thousand dollars to feed the children or whatever, but then they're going to also donate a thousand dollars back to Kenneth Cole Ministry. Sometimes Barry: they may not donate the full amount but I think it's a way for a bunch of organizations to put on a balance sheet or something that we, they can promote it.They can say, Hey, our audited financial statement, we gave this amount of money to ministry. De'Vannon: Hmm. Oh, so they're like scratching each other. There's backs in a way, and they're moving money around to manipulate the tax system. Okay, you Barry: give me the money and then I get it back. I mean, [00:58:00] that's what it looks like.They'd probably eject to the way that I describe it, but that's what it looks like to me. , but that's what they call it. See, twice soon. De'Vannon: They probably rejected this whole podcast , not just this episode. , it's the whole thing altogether. You know, the people who raised me though, like my evangelist Nelson, who I talk about a lot, you know, you know, they, when they traveled the country, and the world preaching and they always said that they never charged people to go.They were like, if God's gonna send me over here or, or whatever, then he's also going to provide, now I'm talking about people who were probably born in like the twenties, 1920s, thirties, forties, that sort of thing. So these people were old. And so I think she was 80 when she died about three, four years ago.And so you can do the math to see probably when she was born, but she never, you know, she felt like [00:59:00] God was calling her to Washington DC to go preach. And she had a relationship with that church as I understand it. You know, we, you know, might raise money to help her go, or she would pay for herself or something like that.But she wasn't like, I ain't showing up unless you have this amount of money. You know, it wasn't anything like that. Now they did once they would get there, you know, if they wanted to raise a speaker. A speaker's offering, then it's whatever that amount would be. It's not like it had to be a minimum for it to show up, you know, for the speaker to show up.And so I feel like her style was more in line with how the apostles started doing Jesus's ministry. You know, they took what they had and went out and preached the word and they kind of took care of these, of these preachers when they got to different towns. I don't find anywhere in the scripture where go and preach the gospel, but only do it if you're paid a minimum amount of money.Barry: you know, I don't, that [01:00:00] verse isn't there,De'Vannon: And so what this is, is the church being very hypocritical and wanting to look like the world. And so if it's something that the church doesn't want you to do, drink, masturbate, have sex outside of marriage, or generally enjoy your life. They're like, you don't want to be like the world. We can't have you being worldly rah ra ra, ra.But when it comes down to finances, they want to pattern themselves after Fortune 500 companies and they wanna pattern themselves after the world. They're like, why shouldn't we make, it's the same thing as a corporate executive does. Why shouldn't we make the same thing every other speaker does? It's because we're in the church doesn't mean we shouldn't be paid.Right. So then it's okay to be like the world . Barry: Well, some of these preachers, I don't think they believe a word they preach . And I don't wanna name names, but we have an [01:01:00] informant that told us about a pastor that was an atheist. He didn't pray. And in fact, I just mentioned that in one of the articles that I posted this morning.I can't identify the preacher's name. He's definitely on our radar. But there's a preacher that he's an atheist agnostic. He doesn't believe what happened is it, I'd wrote an article about privacy laws preventing transparency. Attorney Foundation did a report on him to the irs and we're not able to know the status of that report because of the way the IRS laws are.But yeah, preacher doesn't believe the Bible. It's just a scam to get money. Preaches the Prosperity Gospel, but he doesn't believe the Bible. And and there are, there are [01:02:00] a number of preachers that I would put in the same category. Obviously I can't read their minds. There's a guy named Mike Murdoch.I have serious doubts that he believes what he, some of the stuff that he preaches, Tilton. Robert Tilton. I seriously be doubt he believes some of the things that he's said. Again, that's my own opinion. But I just, some of the things they say, don't look authentic to me, don't look real. And some of these people are the ones really pushing the prosperity gospel.De'Vannon: It's I've observed a pattern, like when I was still in the church, they would do this thing and they were doing like escalating offering amounts, so they would be like, , they would get every one all pumped up. We want you to give a hundred dollars and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or perhaps deescalating.It would go [01:03:00] both ways. Sometimes they would make a whole big deal out of somebody who they were to give a thousand or a hundred, and then they'd go, okay, well if you can't do that, then we'll take 80 huge blessings come your way, miracles and all of that, not that, and we'll take 60, you know, whatever. Then they'll work their way down the 20.You know, at first I thought maybe it was a legit thing, but then I noticed other preachers doing this at different churches, you know, if I'm recalling correctly. So it's like they were borrowing best practices and then saying that it was divinely inspired every time they did. . And one time when I was at this church in Southern California, I went to go give, like the last few dollars I had, it was like three or $4.I'm thinking I'm gonna be like, you know, the lady who gave the two mites or whatever and be honored, the preacher, he was like, I don't need this . You know, he like, he like rejected my offering because it wasn't at his minimum. And so because they have this mind, [01:04:00] right? They have this, these preachers, they have this mindset that they're worth so much.They're like, I shouldn't, you know, don't give me any less than $20. That's, that seems to be the standard. And they were like, I don't want an offering. If you're gonna gimme less than 20. And then they would turn around and try to prime us up and be like, if you have somebody out there who's broke them, even let them ride in your car, you don't want that rubbing off on you.You know, if they don't, you know if there's somebody who's gonna pull you down. I'm like, well, Jesus wouldn't have told me to not give someone a ride because they don't have, they don't make over 40,000 a year or a hundred thousand or whatever, you know? Yikes. , Barry: did you see the news about the recent preacher that was allegedly robbed of him and his wife of jewelry worth a million dollars?De'Vannon: That does sound vaguely familiar, but Barry: just recently, a couple weeks ago, this event happened on a Sunday and [01:05:00] in New York City, and the preacher looks like a conman. I mean, you, like, how does a pastor afford a Rolls Royce? I mean, you look in his Instagram videos and he does some of these videos inside his car, and if you look on some on the headrests, they have the double R, that's the Rolls Royce symbol there, and you're like, okay, are you using church funds to pay for this lifestyle?The IRS has a standard for pay. It's called a reasonableness. If something is not considered, if it's considered unreasonable, then it should be illegal. Or you should be taxed extra for it. That's I'm in regards to non-profit salaries. And churches are nonprofits. De'Vannon: Yeah, I'm looking at this guy now.Well, perhaps the Lord made it right, you know, he [01:06:00] robbed others. Now his ass got robbed. You know, God is not mock. Whatever you, so you will reap. The Lord didn't tell me he was, this was his karma. I'm just saying. I don't know. Seemed like with all that money, he might have had better security. , Barry: there's a person on the stage sitting in a chair or, or next to the stage, let say this person is sitting in a chair when this so-called robbery happens.And it's interesting watching that person's mannerisms as he is watching this go down. He does not look scared to me anyway. And when I see that, I'm wondering, okay, is this insurance fraud? Is he, is this actually a scam? I mean, that's what it looks like to me. I mean, obviously I'm not a juror and I don't have any inside information, but it doesn't look legitimate to me.Doesn't look authentic. De'Vannon: Oh, so you think it's like a scam and he knew it was gonna happen. ? Barry: Yes. Totally. De'Vannon: Looks like a scam. . [01:07:00] No, it has been done. It has been done. So, so knowing all these things we know about churches, People like you and I work to inform people so that they can be more aware of where they're spending their time, where they're spending their money, where they're investing their trust.People still are gonna go to these churches no matter what we say. Some people might stop. So why is it that we fall for this prosperity Gospel? Why do we keep going to these churches? I did it like I'm, I'm, I sat there, listened to these people telling me things that I knew was bullshit, that that preacher rejected my dollars that I wanted to give them.And I still kept going to that church. You know why? I know I started going to these churches? Cause it was just really nice to hear a preacher being somewhat positive rather than growing up in the south where everything's a sin and you just can't do any fucking thing. So it was a lesser of two evils.But the person I am now, I'm like, you know what? I don't need any [01:08:00] church at all. I know how to go to God for myself. So, Why do you think people still put themselves in front of this abuse, even with, you know, all this knowledge that we're giving them? Barry: When I was a teenager, we had an event one night with our youth group.It was a lock in. And so in the midst of all these entertaining things that we did, games, et cetera, we had some Bible studies and et cetera and discussion times. And we had a discussion about what did you wanna become, what did you wanna be in life? And as our group when to discuss that sort of like became a thing.Everybody wanted to be successful. And I think that's right at the heart of the Prosperity Gospel, people wanna be valid. They wanna be seen as a success. They do not want, they wanna be [01:09:00]self-reliant. They don't wanna depend on anyone for anything. So when a preacher preaches that you can get your heart's desire, if you do this you'll get, well, if you do this, your debts will be paid if you do this.People sometimes are desperate and it's sometimes the desperate people that are donating to the Prosperity Gospel preachers. Often it's the poorest of the poor that donate to 'em. We know for a fact that there was one preacher that was deliberately send letters to people in low income zip codes.They give more than wealthy people.I mean, it's, it's sad targeting the poorest of the poor, but that's what they do. And it's a white [01:10:00] preacher targeting neighborhoods that are, a lot of them are black. I call it racism. What he's doing I believe it's absolutely evil. What how this is being done and why do people keep doing it?Some are desperate. Some have bought into the Prosperity Gospel. They, they wanna be rich. I think it's, sometimes it's people, they just haven't heard the truth and they're, they don't, they've, because of that, they accepted a lie. If they had a preacher instead of preaching the prosperity gospel was, would, would teach things like.there's a Bible verse where Jesus said, the poor will always be with you. You didn't say you everybody would be rich. If, if, if they, you had a preacher that was telling them a different message. [01:11:00] I think some people would be, more people would be open to it, but it just, that's all they hear. And one one of the verses that I mentioned earlier was the verse where asking shall be given you, seeking you shall find.Seeking is a big part of scripture. There's a Bible verse in the Old Testament where it says, it's the glory of God to conceal a matter, the glory of kings to seek it out. Mm-hmm. . So God deliberately conceals the truth. He wants us to look for it. There's another verse in the Bible that says to study, to show yourself approved on demand so you can rightfully divide the word of truth.Basically, we need to study the word on our own. We can't rely on just someone to tell us everything. And so I think people have not been taught to seek the scriptures to learn for themselves. They've not been taught to do [01:12:00] that. De'Vannon: No, not until now, because motherfuckers like you and I are preaching, you know, you know, autonomy to people.I want people to not only study the Bible, but to study these motherfucking preachers because you know, you're investing, like, you're literally trusting your entire eternity and soul to this person on stage. You know, they have an entity to run, so no, they're not going to tell you to go. They go. So follow God without them, they need you to keep coming back to the church.I don't have an agenda other than I want you to be spiritually fit and spiritually independent so that if those churches fall, if organized, religion should fall and you don't know what the hell is gonna happen from one day to the next. You're not sitting there. Like in a spiritual limbo. Cause you don't know what to do.You can't go to church, you can't do this. The saddest thing that I heard from the war in Ukraine was there was a Ukrainian lady who was fighting against the Russians and she was like, I'm not afraid to die. I'm just afraid to die because I haven't had a [01:13:00] chance to make it to confession. Like, you know, that's too much control for the church to have over somebody's eternity, for you to think that you can even repent until you can go and talk to a physical human.There was no point in Jesus coming if it was gonna be all that. And so, so I want people to. study their leaders, like we were talking about before we hopped on this broadcast. I want people to find out when these different, all these teachers and preachers are running around these churches, when the hell are these people really called?You know? Are they really called? How do you know that, you know, there has to be some sort of reason in the Bible. No, Lord, you know, appears to people. There's a moment when they're not called. There's a moment where there is, you know, something has to change. You know? Was it a dream? Was it a vision? You know, don't just accept them because they're up on stage and, and we're wrapping up now.So after I say all this, I'm gonna let you say whatever you wanna say and have a last word. I, I do not believe that just because somebody is the son of a preacher or they [01:14:00] inherit a ministry, I don't, I don't subscribe to this whole, everybody in the family is called, you know, you know, God. I just, I just don't, because in the Bible,I don't see like many situations and I can't, I can't think of any right now where the mom, the dad, the aunts, the uncles, all the kids, everybody has a special mission from God. I don't see family ministries, you know, you know, that span generations in these, you know, in these books. And so, and even kings, you know, you know, the, you know, the bloodline of Abraham, you know, is different, you know, and then we're talking about even then just the son was the leader and everything like that.And then even at that, he technically wasn't a priest, you know? And so, you know, so this, everybody's called, I question it. And so what I'm seeing now is like, These, these kids or these preachers are starting to preach. You know, I saw one [01:15:00] not too long ago, you know, I'm not gonna say the preacher's name, but you know, both parents are rich.Now he's starting to preach and he's talking about telling people you know, about being poor and how they're gonna make it, you know, and they hard times and everything like that. And I'm all like, boy, what the fuck you know about hard times? You know, I don't, especially financial hard times, you know, so these, these children are preaching what they know people want here, but you have not lived on food stamps, social security, food and security, not knowing how you're gonna keep the lights on.That is not a life, you know, because you were born a millionaire. And so now that you are a preacher's kid and you were born rich, you're gonna get up there and, and speak this package match message that you know you can sell to your audience. I don't. I don't know. That just pisses me off.Barry: My dad was a minister and he felt [01:16:00] called of God to become a minister. It's not what he wanted to do. My dad wanted to be a professional baseball player. He loved sports, but he ended up becoming a minister. His title was Minister of Education and Outreach. He worked in several Baptist churches over his career.And so in his job he would train Bible teachers and recruit Bible teachers for the church. He would visit the hospitals each week he would visit nursing homes each week. And he enjoyed serving people that they couldn't do anything for. Going to see somebody that's sick in a hospital, seeing somebody in a nursing home that's weak and they can't go anywhere.He would bring joy to their lives. Some of these people, they wouldn't have any family members visiting them during the week and just him going to, and to see them, [01:17:00] it made their day. And so that was the type of home that I grew up in. One time there was a family they moved to where we lived in Louisiana.They were, he was job hunting, the dad, the husband they had a newborn child and they're broke. Homeless. We let them live with us and our house for months, I think about six months. So we took in the homeless. That's what I believe real Christianity's about. It's about sacrifice, not success.It's about taking up your cross and following me, and that doesn't include a dollar bill and profits. De'Vannon: Yeah, that sounds super sincere. You know, his part, he sounds like he was accessible to people and not like the big guy on stage. You know, who we have to stand in line [01:18:00] with. Maybe they'll sign our book even though they're our pastorBarry: When our Sunday service would end Sunday morning, my dad almost always would try to be at the back door of the church. When people were leaving, he would greet people. So he would shake people's hands and say hi. He wanted to greet everybody. He wanted people to get to know who he was.My dad loved visitation. He loved visiting people in their homes. That's, again, something that's going outta style. Fewer and fewer people doing are doing church visitation. Also, there's more and more of a mindset of my home as my castle. It's a place of privacy. And so you see less of that,