Podcasts about orleans

Anson Young is a Real Estate Agent and Investor with Hundreds of Transactions Completed in Each Category of Real Estate. Anson and his team Specialize in Marketing directly to Sellers for Off-market Deals, Using Many of the Methods that can be Found in his Book Finding & Funding Great Deals. When not Working, Anson can be Found Exploring the Wilds of Colorado's Rocky Mountains with his family, Reading Favourite Books to his Son, and Attending Loud Rock Concerts. In this episode we talked about:  • Anson's Bio & Background  • Anson's First Steps in Real Estate Business  • Becoming a Real Estate Agent   • Anson's Main Focus in Real Estate  • Raising capital   • Private Landing  • Sourcing Deals   • Building an Off-Market List  • Prospecting and finding  Opportunities  • Anson's Thoughts on Inflation and Interest Rates  • Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned   Useful links: https://www.instagram.com/younganson/?hl=en https://www.youtube.com/c/ansonyoung Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Right? Ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jessica galleon. You're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. Our special guest today is aunts and young Anson is a real estate agent and investor with hundreds of transactions completed in each category, real estate Anson, and his team specialize in marketing directly to sellers for off-market deals, using many methods that can be found in his book, finding and funding great deals when not working ants and can be found exploring the wilds of Colorado with his family and tending loud rock concerts.   And I can see you got a twig behind you there, and son, how you doing?   Anson (54s): I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for having me, Jesse.   Jesse (56s): Yeah, my pleasure having you on, what do you got there? Is that a base? It's hard to tell because   Anson (1m 1s): That one's a five string bass.   Jesse (1m 4s): I like it. Fantastic, man. Well, thanks for coming on. We were just chatting before the show, like a few of the most recent guests you were speaking at BP con this year, what was, what was your topic?   Anson (1m 17s): So my topic this year was finding the deals in any market and it focused on kind of out of state investing or long distance real estate investing, building a team, you know, how basically how to go ahead and find those deals, whether it's networking or off market. And, and yeah, that's seems to be a hot topic. Everybody's market is too expensive. So they're looking at other markets and I figured I'd hit on that since that's what I'm doing too. So   Jesse (1m 47s): Yeah, absolutely. It's certainly topical right now. It's we kind of joke around about the inverse relationship between, you know, the, the lower interest rates are, the cheaper money is the harder it is to find deals.   Anson (1m 59s): Oh yeah, for   Jesse (1m 60s): Sure. So in terms of a little bit of your background for listeners that aren't familiar with you, maybe you could kind of take us back to how you got into real estate. I know you just mentioned on the outset, you're also an agent. Maybe you could take us back to the beginning of how that journey started.   Anson (2m 17s): Yeah, sure. So back in 2003 or so I was working in it, I got laid off like everybody did, it feels like kind of boat, post.com, bubble burst. And so I was just looking around of what to do next. Do I go back into it? Do I double down in that arena or do I do something else? And at the same time, my wife and I were going to move down to Phoenix from Denver to be closer to family, my brother had just moved there.   They were having their first kid. So I was like, you know what? I don't have a corporate job anymore. I could kind of move wherever I want. And right before I left a friend of mine handed me rich dad, poor dad, which is, I think just the basic origin story of all real estate investors these days. But, but literally read that book on the way down to Arizona and changed my entire mindset about what I could do, what I should do and why going back into a corporate environment, probably wasn't the best idea.   And so landed in Phoenix and decided new city, a new me, and kind of jumped in and tried to learn as much as I could about anything that I could about real estate. And at the same time I was bartending. And so nights were spent working and days were spent trying to figure out real estate. So that's kind of a, that's kind of where I got started.   Jesse (3m 48s): That's great. So in terms of kind of getting into that mindset, I mean, not, not a dissimilar from a lot of people that come on the podcast or just talking in general, rich dad, poor dad just seems to be a cornerstone for a lot of, at least the beginning of real estate education, because I think ultimately the quadrants of that book for, you know, for anybody that hasn't read it, you definitely have to go check that book by Robert Kiyosaki. But I think it is ultimately when you get to that fourth quadrant where it's passive or, you know, quotations passive investments, I think real estate is just, it kind of lends itself to that, to that type of investment or that type of income.   Anson (4m 28s): Yeah, absolutely. And I had no idea that any of that existed, I mean, the guy who gave me the book, Paul, we were, I remember talking in this parking lot late at night and, and, and, and I couldn't even wrap my brain around getting a second mortgage. Like you have one mortgage who's going to give you money for a second house. You know, like that, that's how small my mindset was until that book helped me unlock and unpack what's possible.   So it, there's a reason why it's so such an origin story for many of us is because we weren't really taught that. And, and then this, this book just showed us kind of a different way of how things could work. Yeah,   Jesse (5m 10s): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's funny cause you know, that book, it really, it hits people in totally different, different jobs and different times in their life. And it still seems to be one of the ones that keeps coming up. So you, you read rich dad, poor, poor dad, you're you get laid off from your job where once, once that clicks for you and that light bulb goes off, what was, what was your process after that?   Anson (5m 35s): So I'm like, like many people starting off. I had no clue what I was doing. So I basically attended every single meetup that I could find from kind of Rhea meetups, real estate investment associations, to like cashflow one-on-one games. So, you know, tied in with the, the rich poor dad, it's basically a board game that people get together and play that kind of go through the principles of financial freedom and stuff.   And so anywhere that I could latch on to people who were doing real estate, I was there and I, I kind of made that my full-time job of, of doing that I've formed relationships. And in that I just started doing, trying to provide as much value as possible. So I'd go do all kinds of odds and end tasks for them for a couple of investors and a couple of agents. And in return, you know, all I asked for was just information. Like I would go run contracts, you know, for a long time for an agent.   And then I would ask for, Hey, can you teach me how to value properties on ML MLS? And so trying to provide that value first and then asking for something in return later on. And so I, I ran contracts, I punched signs in yards. I knocked on doors for a foreclosure investor. Feel like I did all these different things to try to learn as much as possible. And about after nine months to a year, one of the agents reciprocated with a deal.   And she was like, Hey, one of my clients has a property that they want to sell. I think that it would be great for you guys kind of sent over the numbers, helped me run through it and ended up to be our first deal. And it was a live in flip that we spent the next year fixing up and, and, you know, figuring out what's next. But we, we sold it after a year and ended up moving back to Denver. And so it was perfect timing because that was right at the end of 2005. And I think the Phoenix market crashed the next week.   So, so we got out just in time, but I learned a lot on that first deal and then went ahead and just appended and moved markets, which felt like starting over that's that's, that's kinda how that deal went. So   Jesse (7m 58s): Kind of started on that deal. Similar to a lot of individuals were, I guess, somewhat of a, you know, some people call it house hacking where you were living in at the time, but also renting out a, would that be fair to say it was kind of that, that type of arrangement for the first one?   Anson (8m 13s): No, we did. We did kind of a, it needed a lot of work. And so we just decided to move in and fix it while we were living there. We were fixing up stuff, you know, as time and money permitted and by the end of it, you know, it was fixed up and ready to go. And actually my agent w I, I had sent her an email, you know, we had gone to Vegas for our anniversary decided right then that we were kind of just done with Phoenix.   I sent her an email saying, Hey, I think we're going to sell. And she's like, I'll buy it. Like my parents will buy this. Like, she had very much faith that the market was going to keep and she was a little bit wrong on that, but that's okay. Yeah. So she gave us a really good price on it. We ended up making, I think $60,000 on it after a year, which isn't too bad and, you know, had some money to go back to Denver and continue the journey   Jesse (9m 11s): Right on. So was the journey continuing on that kind of operational level where it was value add deals or did you, did you pivot?   Anson (9m 22s): I think I, yeah, it was definitely a value add deals. When I got back, I felt like it was starting over because I didn't have a lot of real estate contacts I didn't have, I didn't know the market. And so, no, I kind of just went back to basics. I started working with investors and agents. I actually got hired on to a real estate agent team and was doing broker price opinions for banks. And right then I just, I figured out this whole thing of bank owned foreclosures and that this could be, you know, a really big thing.   And so, so from then on, probably for the next two years, pretty much everything that I bought was a bank owned foreclosure. So they were all distressed value, add properties that, that had almost no emotion into them because the banks don't care if you low ball them, they just care if it meets their kind of pricing matrix. So that was a fun time to be in real estate for sure. But I got my license maybe a year after I moved back and just kind of did both. I was an agent investor just kind of juggling both things.   Hm.   Jesse (10m 29s): So in terms of the kind of becoming an agent, because you get lots of people that are like, should I get my license as an investor, if you're going to make that switch, did you find it was something that was kind of critical or a nice to have type of type of thing where you still had to develop relationships with host of different agents?   Anson (10m 50s): Yeah. I found it to be absolutely critical to all the real estate that I was doing. Just, just from a, you know, obviously if I'm buying Oreos and my entire existence of finding deals is on MLS. I don't want to be one step removed from that process. I want to be, you know, like a direct actor in that process. And so right in front of MLS on a daily basis to try to find, you know, the deals that I'm looking for, rather than relying on an agent to send them to me, or, you know, go around the back door and give me their log-in or something like that, I could shoot off offers immediately, you know, set showings, do the things that I needed to do to go lock up these deals.   And so for me, it was absolutely pivotal   Jesse (11m 41s): In terms of kind of where you've developed your business today. So you kind of, you go through this process, there's the light bulb moment. You, you see that it's, there's proof of concept when you, you know, in one year you make 60 grand catch us up to today. What, where are you focusing? Not on, not just from a, from a geographical standpoint, but even from a type of asset or type of real estate that maybe you focus on or areas that you focus on.   Anson (12m 7s): Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of ebbed and flowed over the years between wholesales fix and flip. What I'm pivoting towards this year is more longterm buy and hold properties, single family, a small multifamily, those kinds of properties. And so that's a little bit different for me. I'm, I'm used to doing this transactional turn and burn, and now I'm trying to slow down and think for the longterm so that I can, you know, actually have something to show for my effort rather than just, you know, larger pay check, so to speak.   And so, so Ben pivoting in that direction as, as a business and Ben geographically in three different markets this year, just testing things out and getting the ball rolling on long-term cashflow. So that's kind of where we're at.   Jesse (13m 3s): So answered for the actual capital raising side of the business for you or where you source capital has that changed over the, the last few years? And if so, how, how has that evolved for, for yourself?   Anson (13m 16s): It hasn't changed too much once I kind of discovered private money lending before the sec kind of changed their rules, we would kind of just cold call for private lenders, developed relationships with them, had a good track record over time. And so after a while, you know, we would get referred to their friends who were looking to, you know, make, you know, a 10 to 14% return on their investment. And, and so, so yeah, so it hasn't changed too much because we're still using short-term even on these long-term projects we're using short-term funds to, to acquire them and then refinance it now to a more portfolio or, or bank loan style financing.   So I guess that side's new, but when we go into purchase, we're still using like our same private money lenders. They know that they're going to hang on for, you know, three to six months until we refinance out, but that's not too different from a flip where we would hold onto it for three to six months and they would get paid out at the end of that. So, so the, you know, the initial buy is the same. It's just that long-term piece of now it's going to convert into something long-term. So can you,   Jesse (14m 34s): You talked to, to that a little bit for listeners, you know, for that type of approach where you are, you know, getting short term finance, when you have a project going on and then stabilizing after that, maybe you could to kind of run through how that works. And, and, you know, on top of that private lending, I think is a bit of a black box for a lot of people. So, you know, maybe, maybe get your thoughts on that as well.   Anson (14m 59s): What do you mean by black box?   Jesse (15m 0s): Well, I, I feel that a lot of people that aren't in our industry, they hear private money and it sounds like they're meeting somebody in an alleyway and they're handing them a bag of cash. So I think, I think from like, I think for a lot of people, they don't realize how many private lenders there are out there, how many more options you have than just walking up to the bank that you've known for years, or are you, you know, you know, the brand,   Anson (15m 25s): Right? Yeah. So in, you know, I wish it was like an alleyway with a sack full of cat. That'd be kind of fun actually. But typically private lending is just lending from an individual rather than a bank. And so a sophisticated, private lender will operate somewhat like a bank where they, you know, they kind of vet deals. They've vet you, they vet the process. Some even want like a loan application and stuff. Others are very much more relational.   I mean, your next private lender could be your rich uncle or something who really believes in you and wants you to succeed. So it kinda runs the gamut from usually it's, you know, older people who are using the retirement funds. Some people who came into some money one way or the other, it seems like two or three of my guys who I lend or who I borrow from. They all sold a business in their sixties and now have kind of more money than they know what to do with, they see a return of 12% PR and that's very exciting to them.   And so they will lend that to the right person. And so it's kind of, I wouldn't call it a beginner strategy at all, because usually you have to have a kind of a track record. You have to have a reputation for what you're doing for somebody who just is sitting on, you know, even if it's a million dollars, you know, that's two projects in Denver. And so they, you know, lending out their entire million dollars. It has to be to the right person, the right projects with the right track record so that they are secure that bill, you know, end up getting that back.   And so it's kind of private lending in a nutshell. And to your other question for kind of stabilizing an asset, typically we're, we're purchasing with private money, which is for us, it's a hundred percent loan and fix. And so we're, we're into the deal with no money and we go ahead and we get the property fixed up rented, and our next lender wants to see it for at least three months.   We're, we're, we're collecting rent. Everything is stable. Everything's looking good before we can transition that into kind of a, it's a refinance into either a portfolio or, or a conventional style loan. I prefer portfolio, cause it seems just a little easier, but then they, they close on it and they'll pay off the private lender. And so now instead of owing, you know, this individual money, now we own, now we owe this credit union or this bank money and, and pay them.   And it's a long-term note, whereas our short-term private money lender is only like a six month note. So now we have a 30 year note and a smaller payment, so we can actually cash flow.   Jesse (18m 29s): Nice. Yeah, yeah. Obviously the goal there, if we switched to sourcing deals, like we talked about at the outset, it's a, it's a challenging thing to do right now. So it was topical, I guess, that that was in new Orleans. That was your kind of discussion topic, maybe as a comparison, if, if there has been things that are different than when you were starting out, how you were sourcing deals, then as opposed to strategies you've, you've learned and are using now, how has that evolved?   And, and you know, what, what approach are you using given the fact that it just seems like there is so little supply out there.   Anson (19m 7s): Yeah. That evolution has been pretty huge. So like I S like I said earlier, starting off, we did a lot of, we just bought bank owned, foreclosures right off of MLS. And we got really good at that to the point where we also sold REO, but we would buy from other REO brokers. And so we kind of knew the inside process of how asset managers think what different banks did, what, when they did their price reductions, you know, could we get in one day before a price reduction and then get under that price reduction and lock up a property before everybody else saw it.   We got pretty good at that kind of stuff. Once the foreclosure crisis started resolving itself, bailouts and everything else, there was just less foreclosures coming. And I saw the writing on the wall when, on the REO sourcing side, it's kind of the, you know, the, the, the source of the river started drying up and we were both benefiting from that source of the river plus way downstream, when we would pick up deals. It's like, oh man, I kind of see the writing writing on the wall here.   We're not going to be able to find as many deals as we used to. And so at the same time, we were also doing some short sales and looking around there was still, you know, a huge, you know, huge chunk of people who were underwater on their mortgages. And so we just aggressively attacked short sales that were listed and short sales that weren't listed. So we were just going straight after foreclosures basically. And so for about a year or two, we did mainly short sales. Was it, we got really good at that as well of going from the wild west or short sales to when it kinda got standardized and institutionalized.   We saw, you know, everything in that whole window. And then, and then the same thing happened where I started seeing that the market was rising, the prices were rising and not everybody would be underwater forever. And so what do I do next? And from there, we went off market. We, we, we did a little bit more MLS deals we would find, but those really just started getting few and far between, and we needed a bigger source of deals we were doing mainly wholesaling right then.   And so the better source of deals was just to go directly to the seller. And so ever since probably 2014, 15 up until now has been all off market direct to seller. I haven't bought an MLS deal probably three or four years. They just, I don't know. It's just not, not scary   Jesse (21m 54s): Now. Yeah,   Anson (21m 56s): Exactly. So all, you know, basically all off market right now, just going directly to those sellers and seeing if we can help them.   Jesse (22m 4s): So on that, on that note, in terms of the approach that you use with, you know, is it the, of, in the vein of direct mailers, are you kind of going to the secretary of state? Are you going through different software? How are you, how are you reaching out to those? Those would be sellers.   Anson (22m 22s): Yeah. So our main, our main way to reach out and touch them is direct mail. We have just this year started adding in, or I shouldn't say just this year, it was probably 2019, just started stacking in more ways to reach sellers, kind of this, the same lists and in different ways. So if they did respond to the direct mail, we also called them. We also text them. We also emailed them if we could, you know, find them on Facebook, knock on their door, whatever it took to really get in front of the right sellers.   You know, there was a time where you can just send out postcards and, you know, get a 2% response rate, just pick from the best ones. But that just started kind of getting less and less as there was more competition. So now we're reaching out in multiple ways, but direct mail is still our number one.   Jesse (23m 16s): Yeah. You know, it, it's interesting because it comes, I guess, depending on who the sellers are. Like, for instance, if you, if you're really reaching out to predominantly mom and pop, or like you said, small, multi, multi Juarez, you know, I found that the responses are usually better. However, if there's that one layer of say a corporate structure, LLC, partnership, whatever that is, do you, is that also part of the pool that you reach out to? And I guess from there, if it is, you probably have to do that one extra step of, you know, who's the principal who's, you know, who's the signing officer.   Anson (23m 49s): Yep. Yeah. So in Colorado, our, our secretary of state is pretty transparent. So we can go on and search LLCs and find out who, you know, who's the owner where their register addresses all that stuff. So our, oh, I wish I had the number of, of LLCs that we've mailed to, but I have given that over to a VA to go ahead and look those up and just make sure that we're hitting the right people and getting in front of them instead of just setting, you know, XYZ LLC, you know, it's like Paul Jones or something.   So,   Jesse (24m 25s): Yeah, yeah. In terms of the, so for those that are just kind of getting into real estate in terms of finding off market deals, they're coming into an environment that, you know, we we've seen prior to supply constraints, a different approach. Whereas now, because there's so few real estate opportunities out there properties, they were coming into a market where they probably have to start with direct, direct to seller or trying to find off market deals. How would you go about telling somebody who's getting into the industry? How does start building that list?   Anson (24m 58s): I mean, even today, it sounds very, very old school, but I think that are driving for dollars lists are still some of our Mo you know, highest producing lists. And if you want to keep the cost down and you have more time than you have money, I would say, drive for dollars and then cold column, just, you know, skip, trace them or look them up on white pages.com. Yup. And then, you know, send out phone calls. You'll probably, you know, get 50 to a hundred driving for dollars leads a day.   And then, you know, cold column the same day or the day after you'll, you'll keep yourself busy for sure. But it, you know, bang for buck time for payoff, it's definitely the best use of your time to try to find deals.   Jesse (25m 48s): Yeah. A hundred percent, all it really takes is, you know, you do it for a week. If you can hit one, then you know, there's your, there's your week's work right there. Exactly.   Anson (25m 57s): And pretty good ROI.   Jesse (25m 59s): Yeah. A hundred percent. And in terms of your stock, you know, your stock mailer, is it typically, like you said, you know, Hey, you know, Hey Doug Smith and then w what's the typical pitch that you, that you guys employ.   Anson (26m 14s): Yeah. So we definitely try to speak, you know, the ethos or the, you know, the, the makeup of our direct mail is, you know, handcrafted and handwritten. So we want to make sure that we're, we're talking to them down at like a normal level of like, Hey, we're here to help. So it's like, you know, using names, using addresses, using, you know, subdivisions, if we really want to like, like, Hey, you know, Hey, Jesse, we're, you know, we're wondering if you wanted to sell 1, 2, 3 main street, if you've ever thought about selling hassle-free please give us a call.   You know, we don't have any commissions or inspections or appraisals, you know, call us for a no obligation fair offer. And that that's enough of the core of the message to get across of like, Hey, we're here to help. You know, sometimes we'll add in that we're local, you know, we're, we're, we're definitely, you know, not an eye buyer or somebody who's a Zillow or something coming in that we're here to work with them and we have, you know, multiple ways to help them.   So,   Jesse (27m 28s): Yeah. Fantastic. At the end of the day, it's really just getting that phone call. You're not expecting it to get the sale, which it's nice, but not expecting to get the sale on the first touchpoint.   Anson (27m 37s): Right. Yeah, exactly. It's definitely a long game of multiple touches and, and yeah. Building on each other. So,   Jesse (27m 47s): So handsome, we're in a crazy time right now, recording this, you know, coming into the end of, of 20, 21. I don't think anybody could have predicted the last year and a half. How has your business, or how do you see your business evolving as a result of kind of the environment that we've been in, if at all, and, and maybe just prospectively, where do you see opportunities, you know, coming in the new year?   Anson (28m 15s): Yeah. So we're going to continue doing what we're doing for this year, which is, you know, more out of state looking at a state for markets that are conducive to cash flow. Short term rental opportunities is, is pretty big focus right now as well. And then locally, we've been partnering more with other investors because we've had a lot of time spent on the other side, kind of looking at a state. And, and so, you know, looking forward to next year, you know, I think the market's going to just be doing more of the same, can't foresee anything crazy that's going to happen.   And so, you know, we're just kind of to focus on long-term projects and, and even if we're wrong, you know, we still have, long-term more passive, passive things going, so   Jesse (29m 12s): Right on. All right. And so we ask a four questions, every guest before we wrap up. So before I get there, I'm just curious, I've been trying to, you know, for the last month or two kind of taking a poll of, of different real estate professionals I talked to, and I'm just curious your thoughts on number one, inflation, and number two interest rates. And, and I'm not expecting you to have a crystal ball, but I just, I find it funny because, you know, you have asked people, you get four opinions on these topics, right?   Anson (29m 46s): Yeah. So inflation's obviously going to be an issue. I think that Brian, who's the economist who spoke at BiggerPockets convention, had a lot of really good things to say. And pretty much everything that I would kind of repeat of, you know, inflation's a problem. It's not going to be a problem today or next year, but in the next, you know, four years or so, it will probably pop and become an issue.   And as far as interest rates, it's like, I think that they just voted that they're not, they're not going to change at all. And so as long as interest rates stay down and buying, and money is easy, it's just gonna turn, turn the market and keep it going. So buyers will keep buying. Investors will keep investing money right now is probably the easiest thing to get, whether it's hard money or otherwise, and so easy money, hard deals.   So it's going to probably just keep fueling that and, and yeah, just, it, it's kinda hard to say, but I think Brian had a really good kind of outlook on it where, you know, 20, 24 or 2026 is kind of when things will start changing and creeping up a little bit on, on interest rates. And I, I don't know enough about it to disagree. So   Jesse (31m 13s): Yeah, we had a, we had Brian on the show, you can check that episode out. I think it was in the sixties, but he was, he was great if especially if you, if you geek out on, on economics, that's definitely the one that listened to. I love it. Okay. Sweet. If you're ready, we'll fire off these final four questions to ya.   Anson (31m 32s): All right. I'm ready. Right on.   Jesse (31m 34s): What's something, you know, now in your career Anson, whether that's in real estate or business that you wish you knew when you started out.   Anson (31m 43s): So I kind of, I definitely always traded just short-term money for, you know, not worrying about long-term things and, you know, it's like, oh, you're in your twenties. You know, you don't really care too much about it, but once you get up into your forties and you're kind of still doing the same thing, it's probably not the best idea. And so I would, I would go back and tell myself for sure, just like, Hey, keep like even a third of the amount of houses that you're doing, and then you won't have to work when you're 40.   So   Jesse (32m 17s): There you go. That's a, that's a good point. Okay. In, in terms of, for that person, that's getting into our industry, what do you tell them in terms of your view on mentorship?   Anson (32m 32s): Yeah, that's a really, really good question. I'm a big fan of mentors, whether it's kind of formal mentors and informal mentors, you know, people who were willing to help you up. And I would say, just find somebody who aligns with your values and then see how you can provide value to them so that they can help you get to where you want to go. And then once you're at a place where, you know, a few years along the line, I think that mentorship works both ways where you should have a hand up and a hand down.   So you're, you know, you'll graduate through mentors that you're working with and every step along the way, you should be helping bring people up as well. And that teaches you a lot of things too, as you're teaching and working through things with other investors as well. So you've kind of learned by teaching and then obviously you learn by learning from somebody who's where you want to be.   Jesse (33m 31s): Yeah. That's great. Great answer as well. Okay. In terms of, let's put a pin in rich dad, poor dad. So put that one aside, but what is a book that you find yourself just recommending over and over again?   Anson (33m 45s): Yeah. So my, that is, it was a book that I also give about the most as well. And it's obstacle is the way by Ryan holiday and it's a book on stoicism and it's, it's really helped me in my personal life and also through business as well. And so it's just an, and an outlook on life and on business and situations that I wasn't exposed to until I kind of started getting into it. And that book definitely hammered it home for me.   So   Jesse (34m 19s): That's cool. I don't think we've ever had that book recommended on the show, but I've, I've definitely had people say it's a, it's a killer book. Yep. Okay. Last question. First car, make and model.   Anson (34m 32s): I had a 1979 tan VW rabbit. That is   Jesse (34m 38s): Unreal.   Anson (34m 39s): Two door.   Jesse (34m 40s): Yeah. That's pretty good, man. Like 79. I just looking at you. I would've, I would've assumed it'd be the eighties or nineties, but that's, that's quite the car.   Anson (34m 50s): That's the same year I was born. It just happened to be, my dad's always worked on VWs my whole life. And so my step-mom drove like a Cabriolet and my dad's had like dozens and dozens of bugs and, and yeah, when it came time to me, for me to start driving, you know, he bought this 79 tan rabbit that he's like, this is yours. If you get your grades up. And it took me a little while, but finally got my grades up enough to, to drive it. So   Jesse (35m 20s): I love how they're bringing back the seventies and eighties, the retro stitching for a, for a lot of their, their new models. So it got kind of that vintage look.   Anson (35m 29s): I'd love to see it. I'd love to see a new rabbit. Yeah.   Jesse (35m 32s): Oh yeah. Bring it back. Awesome. All right. Answered for those of you that want to connect or reach out or have any questions. I know you're doing work with bigger pockets. Maybe you could tell, tell listeners where they can go on the Google machine.   Anson (35m 47s): Yeah. If you go to the Google machine and if you want to connect with me bigger pockets, this is probably the easiest way to do it. It's just, if you just search my name on the site, you'll find my, my, my profile. Think I'm the only answer on the young, on there still. So that's good. Yeah. And then yeah, if you want to find me on Instagram at young Anson, and if you want to find me on YouTube, I do do videos for bigger pockets and starting to do more videos for myself as well. And so you can find me there.   Jesse (36m 16s): My guest today has been aunts and young aunts and thanks for being part of working capital.   Anson (36m 21s): Thanks, Jesse. Thanks so much.   Jesse (36m 31s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Right? Ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jessica galleon. You're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. Our special guest today is aunts and young Anson is a real estate agent and investor with hundreds of transactions completed in each category, real estate Anson, and his team specialize in marketing directly to sellers for off-market deals, using many methods that can be found in his book, finding and funding great deals when not working ants and can be found exploring the wilds of Colorado with his family and tending loud rock concerts.   And I can see you got a twig behind you there, and son, how you doing?   Anson (54s): I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for having me, Jesse.   Jesse (56s): Yeah, my pleasure having you on, what do you got there? Is that a base? It's hard to tell because   Anson (1m 1s): That one's a five string bass.   Jesse (1m 4s): I like it. Fantastic, man. Well, thanks for coming on. We were just chatting before the show, like a few of the most recent guests you were speaking at BP con this year, what was, what was your topic?   Anson (1m 17s): So my topic this year was finding the deals in any market and it focused on kind of out of state investing or long distance real estate investing, building a team, you know, how basically how to go ahead and find those deals, whether it's networking or off market. And, and yeah, that's seems to be a hot topic. Everybody's market is too expensive. So they're looking at other markets and I figured I'd hit on that since that's what I'm doing too. So   Jesse (1m 47s): Yeah, absolutely. It's certainly topical right now. It's we kind of joke around about the inverse relationship between, you know, the, the lower interest rates are, the cheaper money is the harder it is to find deals.   Anson (1m 59s): Oh yeah, for   Jesse (1m 60s): Sure. So in terms of a little bit of your background for listeners that aren't familiar with you, maybe you could kind of take us back to how you got into real estate. I know you just mentioned on the outset, you're also an agent. Maybe you could take us back to the beginning of how that journey started.   Anson (2m 17s): Yeah, sure. So back in 2003 or so I was working in it, I got laid off like everybody did, it feels like kind of boat, post.com, bubble burst. And so I was just looking around of what to do next. Do I go back into it? Do I double down in that arena or do I do something else? And at the same time, my wife and I were going to move down to Phoenix from Denver to be closer to family, my brother had just moved there.   They were having their first kid. So I was like, you know what? I don't have a corporate job anymore. I could kind of move wherever I want. And right before I left a friend of mine handed me rich dad, poor dad, which is, I think just the basic origin story of all real estate investors these days. But, but literally read that book on the way down to Arizona and changed my entire mindset about what I could do, what I should do and why going back into a corporate environment, probably wasn't the best idea.   And so landed in Phoenix and decided new city, a new me, and kind of jumped in and tried to learn as much as I could about anything that I could about real estate. And at the same time I was bartending. And so nights were spent working and days were spent trying to figure out real estate. So that's kind of a, that's kind of where I got started.   Jesse (3m 48s): That's great. So in terms of kind of getting into that mindset, I mean, not, not a dissimilar from a lot of people that come on the podcast or just talking in general, rich dad, poor dad just seems to be a cornerstone for a lot of, at least the beginning of real estate education, because I think ultimately the quadrants of that book for, you know, for anybody that hasn't read it, you definitely have to go check that book by Robert Kiyosaki. But I think it is ultimately when you get to that fourth quadrant where it's passive or, you know, quotations passive investments, I think real estate is just, it kind of lends itself to that, to that type of investment or that type of income.   Anson (4m 28s): Yeah, absolutely. And I had no idea that any of that existed, I mean, the guy who gave me the book, Paul, we were, I remember talking in this parking lot late at night and, and, and, and I couldn't even wrap my brain around getting a second mortgage. Like you have one mortgage who's going to give you money for a second house. You know, like that, that's how small my mindset was until that book helped me unlock and unpack what's possible.   So it, there's a reason why it's so such an origin story for many of us is because we weren't really taught that. And, and then this, this book just showed us kind of a different way of how things could work. Yeah,   Jesse (5m 10s): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's funny cause you know, that book, it really, it hits people in totally different, different jobs and different times in their life. And it still seems to be one of the ones that keeps coming up. So you, you read rich dad, poor, poor dad, you're you get laid off from your job where once, once that clicks for you and that light bulb goes off, what was, what was your process after that?   Anson (5m 35s): So I'm like, like many people starting off. I had no clue what I was doing. So I basically attended every single meetup that I could find from kind of Rhea meetups, real estate investment associations, to like cashflow one-on-one games. So, you know, tied in with the, the rich poor dad, it's basically a board game that people get together and play that kind of go through the principles of financial freedom and stuff.   And so anywhere that I could latch on to people who were doing real estate, I was there and I, I kind of made that my full-time job of, of doing that I've formed relationships. And in that I just started doing, trying to provide as much value as possible. So I'd go do all kinds of odds and end tasks for them for a couple of investors and a couple of agents. And in return, you know, all I asked for was just information. Like I would go run contracts, you know, for a long time for an agent.   And then I would ask for, Hey, can you teach me how to value properties on ML MLS? And so trying to provide that value first and then asking for something in return later on. And so I, I ran contracts, I punched signs in yards. I knocked on doors for a foreclosure investor. Feel like I did all these different things to try to learn as much as possible. And about after nine months to a year, one of the agents reciprocated with a deal.   And she was like, Hey, one of my clients has a property that they want to sell. I think that it would be great for you guys kind of sent over the numbers, helped me run through it and ended up to be our first deal. And it was a live in flip that we spent the next year fixing up and, and, you know, figuring out what's next. But we, we sold it after a year and ended up moving back to Denver. And so it was perfect timing because that was right at the end of 2005. And I think the Phoenix market crashed the next week.   So, so we got out just in time, but I learned a lot on that first deal and then went ahead and just appended and moved markets, which felt like starting over that's that's, that's kinda how that deal went. So   Jesse (7m 58s): Kind of started on that deal. Similar to a lot of individuals were, I guess, somewhat of a, you know, some people call it house hacking where you were living in at the time, but also renting out a, would that be fair to say it was kind of that, that type of arrangement for the first one?   Anson (8m 13s): No, we did. We did kind of a, it needed a lot of work. And so we just decided to move in and fix it while we were living there. We were fixing up stuff, you know, as time and money permitted and by the end of it, you know, it was fixed up and ready to go. And actually my agent w I, I had sent her an email, you know, we had gone to Vegas for our anniversary decided right then that we were kind of just done with Phoenix.   I sent her an email saying, Hey, I think we're going to sell. And she's like, I'll buy it. Like my parents will buy this. Like, she had very much faith that the market was going to keep and she was a little bit wrong on that, but that's okay. Yeah. So she gave us a really good price on it. We ended up making, I think $60,000 on it after a year, which isn't too bad and, you know, had some money to go back to Denver and continue the journey   Jesse (9m 11s): Right on. So was the journey continuing on that kind of operational level where it was value add deals or did you, did you pivot?   Anson (9m 22s): I think I, yeah, it was definitely a value add deals. When I got back, I felt like it was starting over because I didn't have a lot of real estate contacts I didn't have, I didn't know the market. And so, no, I kind of just went back to basics. I started working with investors and agents. I actually got hired on to a real estate agent team and was doing broker price opinions for banks. And right then I just, I figured out this whole thing of bank owned foreclosures and that this could be, you know, a really big thing.   And so, so from then on, probably for the next two years, pretty much everything that I bought was a bank owned foreclosure. So they were all distressed value, add properties that, that had almost no emotion into them because the banks don't care if you low ball them, they just care if it meets their kind of pricing matrix. So that was a fun time to be in real estate for sure. But I got my license maybe a year after I moved back and just kind of did both. I was an agent investor just kind of juggling both things.   Hm.   Jesse (10m 29s): So in terms of the kind of becoming an agent, because you get lots of people that are like, should I get my license as an investor, if you're going to make that switch, did you find it was something that was kind of critical or a nice to have type of type of thing where you still had to develop relationships with host of different agents?   Anson (10m 50s): Yeah. I found it to be absolutely critical to all the real estate that I was doing. Just, just from a, you know, obviously if I'm buying Oreos and my entire existence of finding deals is on MLS. I don't want to be one step removed from that process. I want to be, you know, like a direct actor in that process. And so right in front of MLS on a daily basis to try to find, you know, the deals that I'm looking for, rather than relying on an agent to send them to me, or, you know, go around the back door and give me their log-in or something like that, I could shoot off offers immediately, you know, set showings, do the things that I needed to do to go lock up these deals.   And so for me, it was absolutely pivotal   Jesse (11m 41s): In terms of kind of where you've developed your business today. So you kind of, you go through this process, there's the light bulb moment. You, you see that it's, there's proof of concept when you, you know, in one year you make 60 grand catch us up to today. What, where are you focusing? Not on, not just from a, from a geographical standpoint, but even from a type of asset or type of real estate that maybe you focus on or areas that you focus on.   Anson (12m 7s): Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of ebbed and flowed over the years between wholesales fix and flip. What I'm pivoting towards this year is more longterm buy and hold properties, single family, a small multifamily, those kinds of properties. And so that's a little bit different for me. I'm, I'm used to doing this transactional turn and burn, and now I'm trying to slow down and think for the longterm so that I can, you know, actually have something to show for my effort rather than just, you know, larger pay check, so to speak.   And so, so Ben pivoting in that direction as, as a business and Ben geographically in three different markets this year, just testing things out and getting the ball rolling on long-term cashflow. So that's kind of where we're at.   Jesse (13m 3s): So answered for the actual capital raising side of the business for you or where you source capital has that changed over the, the last few years? And if so, how, how has that evolved for, for yourself?   Anson (13m 16s): It hasn't changed too much once I kind of discovered private money lending before the sec kind of changed their rules, we would kind of just cold call for private lenders, developed relationships with them, had a good track record over time. And so after a while, you know, we would get referred to their friends who were looking to, you know, make, you know, a 10 to 14% return on their investment. And, and so, so yeah, so it hasn't changed too much because we're still using short-term even on these long-term projects we're using short-term funds to, to acquire them and then refinance it now to a more portfolio or, or bank loan style financing.   So I guess that side's new, but when we go into purchase, we're still using like our same private money lenders. They know that they're going to hang on for, you know, three to six months until we refinance out, but that's not too different from a flip where we would hold onto it for three to six months and they would get paid out at the end of that. So, so the, you know, the initial buy is the same. It's just that long-term piece of now it's going to convert into something long-term. So can you,   Jesse (14m 34s): You talked to, to that a little bit for listeners, you know, for that type of approach where you are, you know, getting short term finance, when you have a project going on and then stabilizing after that, maybe you could to kind of run through how that works. And, and, you know, on top of that private lending, I think is a bit of a black box for a lot of people. So, you know, maybe, maybe get your thoughts on that as well.   Anson (14m 59s): What do you mean by black box?   Jesse (15m 0s): Well, I, I feel that a lot of people that aren't in our industry, they hear private money and it sounds like they're meeting somebody in an alleyway and they're handing them a bag of cash. So I think, I think from like, I think for a lot of people, they don't realize how many private lenders there are out there, how many more options you have than just walking up to the bank that you've known for years, or are you, you know, you know, the brand,   Anson (15m 25s): Right? Yeah. So in, you know, I wish it was like an alleyway with a sack full of cat. That'd be kind of fun actually. But typically private lending is just lending from an individual rather than a bank. And so a sophisticated, private lender will operate somewhat like a bank where they, you know, they kind of vet deals. They've vet you, they vet the process. Some even want like a loan application and stuff. Others are very much more relational.   I mean, your next private lender could be your rich uncle or something who really believes in you and wants you to succeed. So it kinda runs the gamut from usually it's, you know, older people who are using the retirement funds. Some people who came into some money one way or the other, it seems like two or three of my guys who I lend or who I borrow from. They all sold a business in their sixties and now have kind of more money than they know what to do with, they see a return of 12% PR and that's very exciting to them.   And so they will lend that to the right person. And so it's kind of, I wouldn't call it a beginner strategy at all, because usually you have to have a kind of a track record. You have to have a reputation for what you're doing for somebody who just is sitting on, you know, even if it's a million dollars, you know, that's two projects in Denver. And so they, you know, lending out their entire million dollars. It has to be to the right person, the right projects with the right track record so that they are secure that bill, you know, end up getting that back.   And so it's kind of private lending in a nutshell. And to your other question for kind of stabilizing an asset, typically we're, we're purchasing with private money, which is for us, it's a hundred percent loan and fix. And so we're, we're into the deal with no money and we go ahead and we get the property fixed up rented, and our next lender wants to see it for at least three months.   We're, we're, we're collecting rent. Everything is stable. Everything's looking good before we can transition that into kind of a, it's a refinance into either a portfolio or, or a conventional style loan. I prefer portfolio, cause it seems just a little easier, but then they, they close on it and they'll pay off the private lender. And so now instead of owing, you know, this individual money, now we own, now we owe this credit union or this bank money and, and pay them.   And it's a long-term note, whereas our short-term private money lender is only like a six month note. So now we have a 30 year note and a smaller payment, so we can actually cash flow.   Jesse (18m 29s): Nice. Yeah, yeah. Obviously the goal there, if we switched to sourcing deals, like we talked about at the outset, it's a, it's a challenging thing to do right now. So it was topical, I guess, that that was in new Orleans. That was your kind of discussion topic, maybe as a comparison, if, if there has been things that are different than when you were starting out, how you were sourcing deals, then as opposed to strategies you've, you've learned and are using now, how has that evolved?   And, and you know, what, what approach are you using given the fact that it just seems like there is so little supply out there.   Anson (19m 7s): Yeah. That evolution has been pretty huge. So like I S like I said earlier, starting off, we did a lot of, we just bought bank owned, foreclosures right off of MLS. And we got really good at that to the point where we also sold REO, but we would buy from other REO brokers. And so we kind of knew the inside process of how asset managers think what different banks did, what, when they did their price reductions, you know, could we get in one day before a price reduction and then get under that price reduction and lock up a property before everybody else saw it.   We got pretty good at that kind of stuff. Once the foreclosure crisis started resolving itself, bailouts and everything else, there was just less foreclosures coming. And I saw the writing on the wall when, on the REO sourcing side, it's kind of the, you know, the, the, the source of the river started drying up and we were both benefiting from that source of the river plus way downstream, when we would pick up deals. It's like, oh man, I kind of see the writing writing on the wall here.   We're not going to be able to find as many deals as we used to. And so at the same time, we were also doing some short sales and looking around there was still, you know, a huge, you know, huge chunk of people who were underwater on their mortgages. And so we just aggressively attacked short sales that were listed and short sales that weren't listed. So we were just going straight after foreclosures basically. And so for about a year or two, we did mainly short sales. Was it, we got really good at that as well of going from the wild west or short sales to when it kinda got standardized and institutionalized.   We saw, you know, everything in that whole window. And then, and then the same thing happened where I started seeing that the market was rising, the prices were rising and not everybody would be underwater forever. And so what do I do next? And from there, we went off market. We, we, we did a little bit more MLS deals we would find, but those really just started getting few and far between, and we needed a bigger source of deals we were doing mainly wholesaling right then.   And so the better source of deals was just to go directly to the seller. And so ever since probably 2014, 15 up until now has been all off market direct to seller. I haven't bought an MLS deal probably three or four years. They just, I don't know. It's just not, not scary   Jesse (21m 54s): Now. Yeah,   Anson (21m 56s): Exactly. So all, you know, basically all off market right now, just going directly to those sellers and seeing if we can help them.   Jesse (22m 4s): So on that, on that note, in terms of the approach that you use with, you know, is it the, of, in the vein of direct mailers, are you kind of going to the secretary of state? Are you going through different software? How are you, how are you reaching out to those? Those would be sellers.   Anson (22m 22s): Yeah. So our main, our main way to reach out and touch them is direct mail. We have just this year started adding in, or I shouldn't say just this year, it was probably 2019, just started stacking in more ways to reach sellers, kind of this, the same lists and in different ways. So if they did respond to the direct mail, we also called them. We also text them. We also emailed them if we could, you know, find them on Facebook, knock on their door, whatever it took to really get in front of the right sellers.   You know, there was a time where you can just send out postcards and, you know, get a 2% response rate, just pick from the best ones. But that just started kind of getting less and less as there was more competition. So now we're reaching out in multiple ways, but direct mail is still our number one.   Jesse (23m 16s): Yeah. You know, it, it's interesting because it comes, I guess, depending on who the sellers are. Like, for instance, if you, if you're really reaching out to predominantly mom and pop, or like you said, small, multi, multi Juarez, you know, I found that the responses are usually better. However, if there's that one layer of say a corporate structure, LLC, partnership, whatever that is, do you, is that also part of the pool that you reach out to? And I guess from there, if it is, you probably have to do that one extra step of, you know, who's the principal who's, you know, who's the signing officer.   Anson (23m 49s): Yep. Yeah. So in Colorado, our, our secretary of state is pretty transparent. So we can go on and search LLCs and find out who, you know, who's the owner where their register addresses all that stuff. So our, oh, I wish I had the number of, of LLCs that we've mailed to, but I have given that over to a VA to go ahead and look those up and just make sure that we're hitting the right people and getting in front of them instead of just setting, you know, XYZ LLC, you know, it's like Paul Jones or something.   So,   Jesse (24m 25s): Yeah, yeah. In terms of the, so for those that are just kind of getting into real estate in terms of finding off market deals, they're coming into an environment that, you know, we we've seen prior to supply constraints, a different approach. Whereas now, because there's so few real estate opportunities out there properties, they were coming into a market where they probably have to start with direct, direct to seller or trying to find off market deals. How would you go about telling somebody who's getting into the industry? How does start building that list?   Anson (24m 58s): I mean, even today, it sounds very, very old school, but I think that are driving for dollars lists are still some of our Mo you know, highest producing lists. And if you want to keep the cost down and you have more time than you have money, I would say, drive for dollars and then cold column, just, you know, skip, trace them or look them up on white pages.com. Yup. And then, you know, send out phone calls. You'll probably, you know, get 50 to a hundred driving for dollars leads a day.   And then, you know, cold column the same day or the day after you'll, you'll keep yourself busy for sure. But it, you know, bang for buck time for payoff, it's definitely the best use of your time to try to find deals.   Jesse (25m 48s): Yeah. A hundred percent, all it really takes is, you know, you do it for a week. If you can hit one, then you know, there's your, there's your week's work right there. Exactly.   Anson (25m 57s): And pretty good ROI.   Jesse (25m 59s): Yeah. A hundred percent. And in terms of your stock, you know, your stock mailer, is it typically, like you said, you know, Hey, you know, Hey Doug Smith and then w what's the typical pitch that you, that you guys employ.   Anson (26m 14s): Yeah. So we definitely try to speak, you know, the ethos or the, you know, the, the makeup of our direct mail is, you know, handcrafted and handwritten. So we want to make sure that we're, we're talking to them down at like a normal level of like, Hey, we're here to help. So it's like, you know, using names, using addresses, using, you know, subdivisions, if we really want to like, like, Hey, you know, Hey, Jesse, we're, you know, we're wondering if you wanted to sell 1, 2, 3 main street, if you've ever thought about selling hassle-free please give us a call.   You know, we don't have any commissions or inspections or appraisals, you know, call us for a no obligation fair offer. And that that's enough of the core of the message to get across of like, Hey, we're here to help. You know, sometimes we'll add in that we're local, you know, we're, we're, we're definitely, you know, not an eye buyer or somebody who's a Zillow or something coming in that we're here to work with them and we have, you know, multiple ways to help them.   So,   Jesse (27m 28s): Yeah. Fantastic. At the end of the day, it's really just getting that phone call. You're not expecting it to get the sale, which it's nice, but not expecting to get the sale on the first touchpoint.   Anson (27m 37s): Right. Yeah, exactly. It's definitely a long game of multiple touches and, and yeah. Building on each other. So,   Jesse (27m 47s): So handsome, we're in a crazy time right now, recording this, you know, coming into the end of, of 20, 21. I don't think anybody could have predicted the last year and a half. How has your business, or how do you see your business evolving as a result of kind of the environment that we've been in, if at all, and, and maybe just prospectively, where do you see opportunities, you know, coming in the new year?   Anson (28m 15s): Yeah. So we're going to continue doing what we're doing for this year, which is, you know, more out of state looking at a state for markets that are conducive to cash flow. Short term rental opportunities is, is pretty big focus right now as well. And then locally, we've been partnering more with other investors because we've had a lot of time spent on the other side, kind of looking at a state. And, and so, you know, looking forward to next year, you know, I think the market's going to just be doing more of the same, can't foresee anything crazy that's going to happen.   And so, you know, we're just kind of to focus on long-term projects and, and even if we're wrong, you know, we still have, long-term more passive, passive things going, so   Jesse (29m 12s): Right on. All right. And so we ask a four questions, every guest before we wrap up. So before I get there, I'm just curious, I've been trying to, you know, for the last month or two kind of taking a poll of, of different real estate professionals I talked to, and I'm just curious your thoughts on number one, inflation, and number two interest rates. And, and I'm not expecting you to have a crystal ball, but I just, I find it funny because, you know, you have asked people, you get four opinions on these topics, right?   Anson (29m 46s): Yeah. So inflation's obviously going to be an issue. I think that Brian, who's the economist who spoke at BiggerPockets convention, had a lot of really good things to say. And pretty much everything that I would kind of repeat of, you know, inflation's a problem. It's not going to be a problem today or next year, but in the next, you know, four years or so, it will probably pop and become an issue.   And as far as interest rates, it's like, I think that they just voted that they're not, they're not going to change at all. And so as long as interest rates stay down and buying, and money is easy, it's just gonna turn, turn the market and keep it going. So buyers will keep buying. Investors will keep investing money right now is probably the easiest thing to get, whether it's hard money or otherwise, and so easy money, hard deals.   So it's going to probably just keep fueling that and, and yeah, just, it, it's kinda hard to say, but I think Brian had a really good kind of outlook on it where, you know, 20, 24 or 2026 is kind of when things will start changing and creeping up a little bit on, on interest rates. And I, I don't know enough about it to disagree. So   Jesse (31m 13s): Yeah, we had a, we had Brian on the show, you can check that episode out. I think it was in the sixties, but he was, he was great if especially if you, if you geek out on, on economics, that's definitely the one that listened to. I love it. Okay. Sweet. If you're ready, we'll fire off these final four questions to ya.   Anson (31m 32s): All right. I'm ready. Right on.   Jesse (31m 34s): What's something, you know, now in your career Anson, whether that's in

Welcome to this Exploring Art Podcast where today Alan is joined with Nicole to give you an insight on Joane of Arc, a peasant girl that eventually became regarded as a French national Heroine. Friedrich Schiller's romantic tragedy 'Jungfrau von Orleans', depicts this french heroine who dies on the battlefield, rather than at the stake like her historical prototype. We take a deeper look into this inaccuracy, which can be seen to embrace this heroine and act as a symbol of chivalry and leads us to discuss whether historical inaccuracies lessen the value of the works of art in which these inaccurate portrayals occur.

Jonathan Taylor scores 5 touchdowns against the Buffalo Bills. Join The Hoof Live Tuesday Night For The Holiday Episode To Recap Sunday's Loss Against The Colts And A Look Ahead To Thanksgiving's Matchup With The Saints. Plus, A Look Around The NFL And We Tackle The Question "Why Aren't There Any Great Teams This Year". #buffalobills #joshallen

In this episode we discussed the story of Joan of Arc, while also looking at some of the artistic works inspire by her. In particular Friedrich Schiller play Jung von Orleans, a play in which the events of her dead where different to what originally had happened. Can a historical inaccuracy affect the value of the work? This are some of the questions we tackle on this episode.

The lads sit with Bradshaw from Catahoula Sign Co. to talk how he transitioned from tech sales to owning a wood shop, the future of Mardi Gras in New Orleans, comedians with podcasts like Theo Von, Mark Normand and John Mulaney, celeb spottings, beard tips, craziest customers, Young Dolph, Pillz the sex tourist and a whole lot more.Use promo code REDACTED at https://catahoulasign.co for 20% off all goodsPanelists: Hmmx, Koozie, special guest Bradshaw

Week 11 of the Philadelphia Eagles 2021 season is now in the books as the Eagles won their first home game of the season - FINALLY - beating the New Orleans Saints by a score of 40-29. The Eagles are now 5-6 on this developmental season, and they appear to be heading to a playoff push. This week we were joined on the postgame podcast show by Chip Keagy (@Chipforthebirds) from All About The Birds.Yet again this week, we continued to see the Eagles identity taking shape as the rushing game was in full force. The Birds ended the day with 242 yards on the ground, 4.8 yards per carry. Third down efficiency continues to look more and more impressive week after week, as does Nick Sirianni's play calling, understanding the strengths of his offensive players.It was a tale of two halves for the defense as they dominated via man coverage and stopped the Saints offense from doing much in the first half. However, a more conservative soft zone coverage scheme dominated much of the second half and allowed the Saints to score 22 points in the fourth quarter. Still, this team pulled out a decisive win.As always, we gave our takeaways, dove into the stats, and graded coaches.Head over to our website for more podcasts and more: https://www.philadelphiasportstable.com.Follow the guys on Twitter:Jeff Warren: @Jeffrey_WarrenErik Leonard: @BrickPolittLen Hunsicker: @LenHunsickerFollow the show on Instagram: @philadelphiasportstable"Like" our Facebook Page: facebook.com/PhiladelphiaSportsTable

On this installment of OPPOSITION TERRITORY, Ross Jackson from CanalStreetChronicles.com and the Locked on Saints podcast joined Jeff to discuss the upcoming matchup between the Philadelphia Eagles and New Orleans Saints. The Eagles are coming off a decisive win over the Broncos on the road. Can they get their first home win of the season? Topics the guys dove into:- A look at the Saints quarterback position and the challenges it has presented thus far this season.- A stellar Saints run defense will look to stop the Eagles rushing identity.- Areas where the Saints defense are vulnerable.- How might the Saints offense take advantage of the soft zone coverage schemes of Jonathan Gannon.All of this and much more this week on Opposition Territory!Head over to our website for all of our podcasts and more: philadelphiasportstable.com.Follow the guys on Twitter:Jeff Warren: @Jeffrey_WarrenLen Hunsicker: @LenHunsickerErik Leonard: @BrickPolittFollow the show on Instagram: instagram.com/philadelphiasportstable"Like" our Facebook Page: facebook.com/PhiladelphiaSportsTable

Craig Curelop is a Real Estate Agent and Investor. He is an Author of The House Hacking Strategy: How to Use Your Home to Achieve Financial Independence and Co-host of FI Team podcast. In this episode we talked about: - Craig's Bio & Background - House Hacking Strategy - Expansion of Craig's Real Estate Portfolio since 2017 - Working at BiggerPockets  - Real Estate Investing Strategies  - Writing a Real estate Book - Sourcing Deals - View On Current Market Environment - Short Term Rental Market Outlook - Financing Deals - The Advice to People who Consider Making a Career in Real Estate - Building a Team  - Mentorship, Resources and Lessons learned Useful links: https://thefiteam.podbean.com https://www.instagram.com/thefiguy/?hl=en Transcriptions:  Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jesper galley and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. Our special guest today is Craig . Craig is a real estate agent and investor. He is author of the host hacking strategy and co-host of FII team podcast, Craig, how's it going,   Craig (37s): Jesse? So good to be here today. I'm doing great. How   Jesse (40s): Are you? I'm doing awesome, man. I can't complain we're on the tail tail end or just, just pass Halloween. So I, for those that can't see us right now, we've got a couple of mustache here, but I feel like yours is for a Movember   Craig (53s): Mine's is just for life and his life. The lady, the lady loves the mustache, so we   Jesse (58s): Keep it. That's amazing. So it's just a lifestyle choice.   Craig (1m 1s): It's a lifestyle choice. Yeah, man. It's been like a year. I think it's, I'm almost, I'm approaching my one year mustache anniversary, so I love it. There should be a, there should be a celebration for that.   Jesse (1m 10s): Oh, I said we were just chatting. I have mine on, I meant to shave it off. I was afraid of mercury for Halloween and now I, and now we're in November, so I don't know what to do, dude. You   Craig (1m 18s): Look good. You should keep it.   Jesse (1m 21s): I appreciate it, man. Are you joining us today from, from Denver?   Craig (1m 25s): Yeah, I am here in Denver. Yeah. Been here four and a half years.   Jesse (1m 30s): Sweet. Well, thanks. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it. I think we'll have a great episode here. Talk a little bit about your background in real estate and love to get into house hacking and the book. But before we do, maybe what we could do is talk a little bit about how you got into real estate and bring us up to speed of what you're doing these days.   Craig (1m 52s): Yeah. So I got into real estate because a lot of people like a lot of people, I hated my job. And so I was actually working like a venture capital type role in Silicon valley, which sounds super sexy and super cool. And I was hanging out with mark, like I was hanging out with mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and all that, but that wasn't, that's not really the case. Right. I'm actually just like buried in spreadsheets, working hundreds of hours a week is what it felt like. And really just getting paid like an abysmal amount on an hourly rate. And I just kinda came to this conclusion that there's no way I wanted to do this for the rest of my life and what, like, what's the way to out.   What's an early way to retire. How do I achieve financial independence? And that's what kind of real estate came to mind through a lot of iterations I went through, I tried to do start my own startups, which was just horrible, horrible stuff. And then I was like, I don't need to be mark Zuckerberg or Steve jobs or anything like that. Right. I can just be a real estate investor. And so I found bigger pockets pretty quickly after this deciding I wanted to get into real estate just was absorbing absorb, absorb information for about six months. And then I was like, okay, I got to get out of Silicon valley. Cause I just can't afford anything here.   It doesn't seem like this whole house hacking thing really works in Silicon valley. So I actually moved to Denver, got a job at bigger pockets, which was like a dream come true. Started surrounding myself with real estate investors and people that were doing things that I wanted to do. And, you know, got my first property in that was April, 2017 or actually started June, 2017. I got my first property   Jesse (3m 21s): Right on. And that first property was that a, was that a house hacking proper property. And, and I guess before you answer that, maybe for listeners just to update people that don't know how sacking would, is it?   Craig (3m 33s): Yeah. So how's hacking is the idea that you buy a one to four unit property with a low percent down, typically three to 5% down. You have to live in it for a year. So if it's a single family house, you're living in a room, if it's a two to four unit, you're living in a unit and you rent out the parts that you're not living in, so that the rent covers your mortgage and you're able to live for free or at least drastically reduce your housing expense. And because your housing expenses probably your largest expense, you're actually able to save a lot more money. So you can go ahead and buy the next investment.   And so that's what I did on that first property. I purchased a duplex. This was before anybody really knew about the rent by the room strategies before that was popular. So the only way to house at this time in my head was to buy a duplex live in one side, rent out the other. So it was an uptown duplex. I lived in the bottom, rented out the top and I wasn't quite covered my mortgage. And I was like determined to cover my mortgage. It would have been a great house either way, but I was determined to cover my mortgage. So I Airbnb it out my bedroom and put up this like cardboard box room divider thing, slept on a futon and made that where I slept for one year.   And that was my 24 year old hustle self.   Jesse (4m 47s): So that, that is a pure house hack right there. So in terms of the, the uptown, was it already, was it already converted to the ability to have a walkout? What did that?   Craig (4m 58s): Yeah, it was totally turnkey. And so with house hacking, I firmly believe, and I stand by this. I was like this to the grave. Is that a turnkey property? That in by Turkey, I just mean the rehab is totally completed for you is much better than doing a rehab when you're doing the house. Heck because with house hacking, right, the, the magic is buying one every single year on the year and your year does not start until you close on that first property. And so let's say you close today's November 1st, let's say close today, November 1st.   I can't buy another one until November 1st of next year, but if I'm doing a rehab, that means I am spending more money. I am not getting money from my tenants. And that may push me back if I have to save another 20 or 30 grand to get the house hack on November 1st. So who cares if I have an extra 30,000 of equity in my house, which I can't use, I need 30,000 in my pocket, which I can go buy the next house for.   Jesse (5m 52s): And the one year is that, is that a financing thing? Is that just a strategic thing?   Craig (5m 57s): Yeah, that's a financing thing. So in order to get those low down payment loans, the three to 5%   Jesse (6m 1s): Down the bank says, you need to live there for at least one year. So yeah. Yeah. I find, I find too, there's a, depending on kind of the weather American Canadian, depending on which state you're in, I know that the ability to move in or displace a tenant oftentimes has a one-year horizon on it that they want you living there for one year. But to your point, yeah. In terms of finance, I think most areas you're going to get that lower financing. When you can say that you're personally moving into the, to the property in terms of the, so, so you start with, you start with that property, how, and that was a 2017, you   Craig (6m 37s): Said 2017.   Jesse (6m 38s): So from 2017 to where we're at right now, a couple of things have changed in the market. You know, some minor things in terms of how you kind of grew the portfolio. If you have from then to now, what does that look like?   Craig (6m 52s): Yeah. So the growth at first, it's really slow because you just don't have a lot of money, right? Like, you know, I remember on that first one, I pretty much depleted almost my entire savings and maybe had like 10 grand left and I needed to save up another 20 or so grand and get the next house hack. And you know, at that time I was maybe saving $2,000 a month. So it was like gonna take me probably a whole year to save up for the next house. Heck. So what I was doing, you know, I call it the lull period in between house hacks where there's really not much you can do. I mean, if you want to be a real estate hustler and start wholesaling and flipping, you could get into that, but I wasn't really interested in those things.   So I just doubled down at my work. I was working at BiggerPockets at the time, doubled down on my work there. I actually asked Scott who Scott trench to see yogurt buckets, basically, how can I make more money here? And I was able to, he actually gave me an opportunity and we created a pathway together to where I could make more money at my, at my W2 job. I was doing Airbnb arbitrage. I was throwing out my car. I was basically just figuring out any possible way that I can make some more money because I want to hit financial independence as early as possible, like so badly because I hated that feeling of being stuck.   Jesse (8m 4s): Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's looking for different or different streams of income. And for those that don't know, like Turo Turo is great. It's a, it's basically an Airbnb for your card and I'm pretty sure they're in every major market, but so it sounds like, it sounds like for you, it wasn't so much the flipping and the fact that you're going to run a business, you wanted more so passive income and, and longer term, longer term growth.   Craig (8m 25s): That's right. Yeah. I was, I mean, maybe I was scared honestly. Like I didn't want to handle hard money. I was in Denver. Right. So buying a house for 400 grand hard money on that, it's going to be like 50 grand. And I was like only about 20 grand. Right. And then you still got to put 20% down. So it became such a high effort thing that like, I wouldn't be able to do that and have my W2 job. And I really loved my W2 job at the time. Like I was hanging out at BiggerPockets, we were talking real estate network was growing. I had a lot of opportunity at BiggerPockets.   So I was like, just, that is my number one focus. So   Jesse (8m 59s): At the time, what were you doing at BiggerPockets?   Craig (9m 2s): So I was their finance guy. So I say the finance guy, because I was the only person on the finance team at the time. And so basically like doing all their books, running the numbers, making reports for management and stuff to look at. So I, at one point I knew pretty much every number that BiggerPockets had, but unfortunately I don't have that anymore. So my numbers are probably three years expired.   Jesse (9m 26s): Okay. Fair enough. And you've moved at sounds like you've moved from BiggerPockets to another W2 job or are you investing full time?   Craig (9m 35s): No, so yeah, I knew that BiggerPockets is going to be my last w two jobs. And so my, yeah, so I figured pockets. I basically had done three house hacks. So over the course of about three years, I did three house hacks and I felt like I was financially independent, but I wasn't sure. And so the way I test it was I took a zero paycheck and maxed out my 401k. So like my entire paycheck for three months was going to my 401k and I figured, Hey, if at the end of three months, my checking account is higher. I'm financially free.   And if not, well, then I'm pretty darn close. And I just, I just maxed out my 401k. And so lo and behold, it was a lot bigger and I was like, I can, I think I can make it on my own. And so pretty much a month after that, at the end of January of 2020, I quit BiggerPockets and went full-time as a real estate agent, helping people, coach guide and mentor people, helping coach guide and mentor those who want to house hack.   Jesse (10m 32s): Fair enough. So in terms of the, the host hacking itself, so you, you move on to that anniversary, you move in purchasing another property. How sack of that property, what are you doing with the former property in terms of whether you're selling refinancing? What does that look like?   Craig (10m 46s): I don't do anything. I just move out and I put someone else in my place. So just rent it out. I did refinance my first two properties because interest rates were so low this past year in 2021. And so it made a lot of sense. I think I reduced my monthly payment by like, like a total of a thousand dollars over the course of two properties. So easy way to boost your cashflow. And so, so yeah,   Jesse (11m 9s): Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But in terms of the, cause the Denver market, it's not the cheapest market in the world. So in terms of you were still able to cashflow, even when you're, you're moving out of these properties with, with the down payment as low as it was.   Craig (11m 24s): Oh yeah. So on that first property, my, my mortgage payment before I refinanced was 22, 2300, I was getting 1650 for the upstairs and 1300 for the downstairs. So my rent was 29 50 and my mortgage payment was about 2300. So six 50 over the mortgage, of course there's reserves and all that kind of stuff, but it was a newer property. So there wasn't a whole lot of maintenance and stuff. It wasn't a great location, so not a whole lot of vacancy. And you know, maybe you put reserves for two or $300 a month and it's still cashflows $300.   And it's in a great area. It's appreciated like probably 200 over 200 grand now in just a few years. So like great property now, since I've refinanced it and rents have gone up this year in 2021, you know, it's, I think I'm making a little over $3,000 on the rent and my mortgage payment is only like 1700 or maybe 1800. And so, you know, now it's closer to a thousand dollars of cashflow on the property and then yeah, same, same thing, same thing as it goes like each one, probably each property that I have in Denver cashflows about a thousand dollars a month.   Jesse (12m 33s): That's great. So being the numbers guy, when you look at these properties specifically on the host hacking side of things, is there an approach that you take that might differ from, from other investors or other investments?   Craig (12m 46s): Yeah. So when you're house hacking, you want to fit, you want to have multiple strategies that you can do, or at least I like having multiple strategies. And what I mean by that is, you know, if you've got a duplex, can you rent it out? Each unit like traditionally and still cashflow, it may not be your best cashflow, but can you still do it? Can you Airbnb it? Can you rent it by the room? How does the layout work? Can you, you know, in a single family house, can you split the upstairs and the downstairs or, you know, the left side from the right side and make two different units out of it. And so properties like that are the ones that we really like.   I pretty much in Denver now, I pretty much only buy single family houses that we could easily convert it to duplexes just based on the layout. And that way, you know, you're getting the house at a single family price in a single family type neighborhood. He renting it out as two separate units that are actually would get you higher rent than you would have to duplex because it's in a nicer area, it's a nicer house. And so the numbers work really well in places like,   Jesse (13m 41s): Yeah, no, that makes sense. And you kind of moved into, I guess, writing with the house hacking strategy. How did that come about? What was that process like?   Craig (13m 52s): Yeah. So writing has, you know, the miracle morning. I do. Yeah. Great. But yeah. Great. So amazing. Both of you haven't read that book. You need to read it a life-changing book, but ever since I started doing that, I started to write every morning and I think he had Ellen Rogers who wrote the book meant means like journaling, but I just enjoy actually just like writing content in the morning. And so basically I write every morning and I was writing blog after blog, after blog for bigger pockets. I think I have probably close to 60 blog posts on bigger pockets. And so they asked me, Hey, do you want to write this book on how second you can?   I was like, hell yeah, I do. And so I, you know, basically instead of writing the blog post every morning, I would just take a stab and write a piece of the book every morning. And after about a hundred days, I had a first draft of a book. And then, you know, for a few months later after the edits and stuff like that, it got published. And that was definitely a, an inflection point in my life.   Jesse (14m 43s): Yeah. I'm always fascinated as listeners probably know of the, the process, the, the, the writing process. We had Chad Carson, coach Carson on the show, by the time you're listening to this, that episode probably has aired. He was talking about the same thing. It was basically from blog to multiple blogs to book. It seems like a strategy that a lot of writers, especially in our space use, as well as, you know, on the other side of, for the individuals that maybe writing isn't isn't their passion, or it's just something that's that doesn't come easily easily to them.   I found that some, some people put content out audio and then basically transcript the audio and then kind of edit from there. But yeah, it's, it sounds like you were the former on that.   Craig (15m 24s): Yeah, no, I, I genuinely like to like touch the keyboard, which is weird, I guess, but like, I like to like make that thing go and yeah, it doesn't take long, you know, if you can just sit yourself, I mean, there's a word counter right on the bottom left, like a Microsoft word document. So I would just be like, I'm not, I'm not leaving this computer until a thousand words richer or whatever you want to call it.   Jesse (15m 43s): And for those that are interested, we'll put a link up for where you can reach out and where you can get the book. But in terms of the, the framework of the book, did you, I mean, obviously you, you wrote through blogs, but in terms of the framework itself, did that change from when you initially wrote it and you know, how did you approach that?   Craig (16m 1s): Yeah. So when you're running a book, it's all about the outline. Like you should spend half the time of half the total time writing the book on the outline, because that is the most important part. If you got the outline, good, the book will just write itself. Right. And so it's almost like almost, you just keep expanding, expanding its spending on the outline until it becomes the book and then you have to go back and, and make it flow. And so really it was just a mixture of yeah. Having a solid outline. Also, I took a lot of my blog posts and just kind of repurposed them a little bit for the book because I mean, a lot of my information is out in the world somewhere.   That's the great thing about a book, because you can even sit into one little thing. And so, and so, yeah, I mean, that was pretty much the process, you know, outline, outline, outline. And then after I had a thorough outline and I went over it with bigger pockets, I just, just started writing a thousand words a day. Every day. You had a, before you had a book.   Jesse (16m 55s): No, that makes sense. So in terms of the, you know, one of the biggest things right now that we're seeing in our market is it continues to be a lot of capital chasing fewer and fewer deals. And it just seems that deals are harder and harder to find where, you know, it's usually one or the other. And in times where there's a lot of deals out there, it's usually financing is harder to find. So in this environment, for those, whether they're looking for longer term properties or looking specifically to do house hacking, what's your approach for sourcing deals and you know, what do you tell clients and investors that you coach?   Craig (17m 28s): And so we get almost all of our deals on MLS and how second is kind of a different beast, right? And the reason for that is you don't need to get a property, super undervalued, add value to it and refinance it, right? The magic is just like slowly collecting rental properties with a low percent down. So you can buy a $600,000 property here in Denver and you're putting 5% down. That's 30 grand, right? And so you've gotten this, you have this property for 30 grand. You have to make the deal work by creatively trying to figure out ways, right? So we've got a lot of people that like to Airbnb, a lot of people that do rent by the room, we've we teach people how to do these split things that, that I like to do.   And those almost always cashflow, right? It may not be a thousand dollars a month at first, but over time, rents are going to increase. You're going to be paying more of your mortgage payment down. Maybe you can refinance to a lower rate. You can take off your PMI and you figure out ways to increase your cashflow over the course of five, seven years. And you know, that that's, the play is the long-term buy and hold. So that's why the MLS works is because again, we don't, we're not trying to like add a whole bunch of value and refinance it, deployed money back out. We're just okay with letting the $30,000 in and keeping it in there.   Jesse (18m 38s): Yeah. And it kind of sounds similar to what we do on the commercial real estate side. We always find that the owner occupier is the one that can pay the highest price for the, for the property because of the, the economies that they have, or the fact that because they're operating out of there. So I guess in a similar way, the person that is house hacking, maybe, you know, not that you're going to pay more than you should, but you probably can be more competitive than somebody that's purely going in there to rent it out.   Craig (19m 2s): Yep, exactly. Right. You can, you can. Yeah, exactly. You can pay more because again, like you're going to be thinking about your competition because the, the, the market's competitive. Right. And if your competition is a lot of it is like home buyers, it's probably more so than house hackers. And so as a house hacker, you can pay more because you're already offsetting your mortgage payment with rents. And so sure, like, what's the difference of like a $50,000 difference is like $250 on your mortgage. Right. It's significant, but it shouldn't be life-changing.   And that $250, you're going to make that back in a month with appreciation. Right. So like, it doesn't even like the price almost doesn't even matter, but make sure you run the numbers and it makes sense, but like with how exactly, I've just never heard anybody lose. Like, and I know a lot of house hackers.   Jesse (19m 50s): Yeah. No, it makes sense. I mean, especially that you're in the property, are there properties that you basically try to avoid or properties that, you know, comparing two properties, say one, like you said, that needs, needs renovations or needs capital improvements. Do you try to avoid those? And, and also just kind of on the same, on the same wavelength when it comes to properties that, you know, you can put a walkout in that doesn't currently have one that would be perfect and create a house hacking property. Is that something you also would look at when you're, when you're looking at properties?   Craig (20m 23s): Yeah. So we like to look at, so creating a walkout can be very hard if the house, like, you know, if the basement isn't already at like our level. So we try to find a house where the stairs to go, like stairs to go from the main level to downstairs is right by maybe a back door or garage door. So you can just kind of wall off where, you know, the backdoor meets the upstairs. And then the, so then just, so when you walk in the back door, it's just, you go down the steps.   And so that those lamps are the ones that we really like, and there's a ton of them in Denver. So that's what tends to really work. I think you had another question, but I forgot what you asked   Jesse (21m 4s): In terms of the, just other capital improvements. Are there, are there certain properties that you, you try to avoid when it comes to, you know, when it comes to spending a certain amount of money to get it to where you need it to be? Okay.   Craig (21m 16s): Yeah. So again, I like the layout to be, like I said, right where the, the less amount of work I have to do the better. So if I have to like dig a separate entrance, like that's a lot of work, expensive egress windows can be very expensive and they've gone up in price in my market when I was putting them in like a couple of years ago, it was 3,500. Now it's close to $5,000 for a regressed window. And so if, if egos windows are already in there, that is really helpful. If there's some sort of plumbing fucked up to the downstairs, we can hook up a kitchen fairly easily.   That's really nice. And so, yeah, those are all the things that I kind of look for. There's nothing that I, I like nothing in particular that I wouldn't do, but if it's like, not even like it, but I wouldn't like force a house to make it a house hack. If the layout doesn't work and all that, like, there's, there's plenty of houses where the way it does work.   Jesse (22m 5s): Yeah. Fair enough. So just shifting gears in terms of where we're at in the market right now, I know that, you know, as you mentioned, you, you write a bunch of blogs. I've seen different posts that you've had. I'm curious to get your thoughts on the current market environment that we're in. Obviously, you know, there's been lockdowns for a few years, almost two years now, if not, yeah. Over we're coming into it right now to two years in terms of how that's affected, if it has at all, the way that you're viewing the real estate market. And is it informing decisions that you're making today?   Craig (22m 37s): Yeah, that's a good question. So, so COVID was probably the best thing that ever happened to me from a, it from a financial standpoint, which maybe I'm, I think I'm one of the few, because when everything's shut down in April and may of 2020 is right. When I basically started my real estate agent business and no one was doing showings. Right. And it was super competitive before that, but no one was doing showings and Denver never really shut it down. Like they never made it. So you couldn't schedule it. Like there were some markets where you couldn't schedule it Denver, you can still schedule it.   And I was talking to like my buyers and I was like, well, no one else is looking right now showing percentages, showing times like showing rate is down 88%. So I swear we're probably the only ones even looking and the seller wants to sell and you want to buy, so if you're cool with it, like I'm cool with it. Let's just go and it will be, you know, six feet apart wear the mask, whatever, like, you know, and, and so we did that and we were for like a few months there, every offer that we were putting out there was getting accepted and it was at asking price. And it was like, it was even below asking price, which was like beautiful for them, for the buyers.   Obviously that was only a short window. And then as things started to heat up again towards the end of last summer, and then all through winter 20, 20, 20, 21, and throughout 2021, things got started really heating up and getting really, really competitive. And that's where house hacking comes into play. Right. Because it's like, Hey, not only were the price is going up, but rents were also going up as well. But we were saying like, okay, let's just analyze the deal, right? Like it's listed for 500,000, can you pay five 50 for it? Like, this is what your mortgage payment would be.   This is what you'll get in rent. You're still going to be making over a thousand dollars a month, like who cares what the listing price is and how much over we have to go. Then the only downside was the appraisal gap coverage, right. Where, you know, for the listeners that may not know is if the appraisal is, comes in lower than the purchase price, someone's got to make up that difference in cash buyer or seller or combination of the two. We kind of had a, a way around that as well. And so should I get into that or please do so, so one thing that we did a lot of was we would set the inspection.   So we would set the inspection for maybe seven to 10 days out. So let's say, you know, you're under contract on November. First inspection would be November 10th. We would then immediately call the lender and get a rush appraisal to be done like that same, the same week. So we're reporting this on a Monday, the appraisal would be backed by Friday before the inspection deadline. If the appraisal comes back super low, we can still back out because of the inspection. So we were able to fully waive the appraisal while still having to be able to back out on the inspection. And that was a strategy that I think a lot of, well, maybe we were the only ones to do it, but I'm sure we're not the only ones to do that strategy, but that worked really well for us in terms of getting deals in our contracts, getting deals done and making sure both parties were very happy.   Jesse (25m 33s): No, fair enough. And in terms of the short-term rental space. So I think you've, you've written blogs on this in terms of that area of the business, you know, how has, how do you see that market given everything that's transpired over the past year and a half, two years? And do you think, do you think it's a S it's a space that is going to be coming back? If it has an already   Craig (25m 55s): It's already come back and it's tough. It's like, it's doubled since, but it was, so I had a whole bunch of short term rentals. I was one of the scared ones that shut, shut everything down and turn into long-term rentals during COVID. And I think a lot of people did that. So the supply and demand just wasn't there. So then as more and more Airbnbs came on and we started air, like our clients started being, they were just crushing. It they're like, dude, I like you told me I was going to make like 3000 a month. I'm making 5,000 a month, like, like the are conservative numbers. Like they were blowing our numbers out of the water, which was great.   Like, I would much rather have people be happier in that regard. But, you know, as, as, as, as far as where it's going to go, like, I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know. That's why I always say like, Airbnb can be your plan a right. And that could be the way you make your most money, but like, make sure you have a plan B that also cashflows, even if it's only a hundred bucks over the mortgage, just so you can hold it, hold it through this recession or whatever, because, you know, when, when, whenever this recession hits that we're going to have at some point, right? Like the first thing that's going to go is recreational travel business travel is probably going to be a lot less, especially with zoom and all of these things that have come to fruition through COVID and there's going to be a lot less reasons for people to travel and want to travel.   And so if the Airbnb, I mean, at the end of the day, Airbnb hasn't even gone. Hasn't even made it through a recession yet the company Airbnb. Right. So we don't even know how they would handle it. So just to have that, have that like backup plan, I think it's super important.   Jesse (27m 24s): Yeah. In terms of the actual financing of deals, obviously you're doing a particular strategy and niche when it comes to the house hacking, but generally speaking, do you have a, a certain methodology or philosophy about how you handle the debt side of your business?   Craig (27m 41s): So I, I personally am trying to get as many, as many Fannie Freddie loans as I possibly can, because we all know that's the cheapest and that's the best kind of debt you can have. I think you're allowed to have up to 10 Fannie Freddie type loans. Once you've maxed out at your 10, you know, then you have to start thinking about other creative ways. And so right now, I think I'm at like seven or eight, I'm going to probably be at 10 by early next year, but I'm fine with that.   Like, I kind of just want to exhaust my 10 because now I'm going into like more commercial real estate investing, triple net, lease side stuff and all that. And that's where I see the future of my real estate investing going. But yeah,   Jesse (28m 24s): No, that makes sense. I want to kind of shift a little bit to something we talked about at the beginning. So your W2 job, or, you know, your, your normal kind of day to day job. You're not dissimilar to a lot of people that we have on the show that make the jump into full-time investment for people that are looking to get into real estate or people that are into real estate. And they're coming up to what, you know, you had an inflection point, you know, what do you, what, what would you say to those individuals in terms of actually kind of leaving the, the day job and you know, what seems like a pretty, and it is a scary, scary move, you know, what, what are your thoughts on that?   Craig (28m 59s): I mean, it's uncomfortable doing so, right. But think about it this way is that your worst case scenario is the scenario you're in right now, right? Your worst case scenario is as you quit, you maybe lose $5,000 on an experiment of trying to, you know, do something for yourself. And then you have to go back and get another job. Right? Like that that's really a hardest. And so if you can kind of just like, look at it as an experiment and look at it, like nothing is permanent, just because you say you quit, it doesn't mean you have to quit forever.   Right. And also, I like the idea that, yeah, you've got enough rental property, passive income to support at least your basic living expenses so that you have enough runway. So that it's, it's not, you know, it's not an issue, you know? Yeah. So   Jesse (29m 44s): For you, it wasn't, it wasn't like a burn, the boats thing where you just absolutely, you know, drop it and say, I'm going to start buying real estate. It was buy real estate, figure out what that number is to make it, make it at least somewhat more comfortable to make, to do that transition. Do I have that right?   Craig (29m 59s): Yeah. Yep. Is that right? Right. I mean, I think for me, I had like $3,000 of passive income and I was like, I'm a single dude. Like I can live off of that as long as I say frugal. And then once you become your entrepreneurial self, you can make a million times more than you ever could have W2. And that will just funnel you're, you know, getting more financially independent or, you know, more fat financially independent, or however you want to call it.   Jesse (30m 22s): No. Fair enough. So in terms of the, you know, you mentioned you, you did get licensed, so as a licensed realtor, you kind of moved into that space, the fit team. Is that, is that on the investing side or is that the, is that on the broker agenda things?   Craig (30m 36s): Yeah, so I ended up being like so busy last year that I either had to quit or start a team. So we started a team. We, we got a team about 1520 agents now that are all house hackers, all investors, at least on the investment side. And so we help coach guide, mentor people through that process of house hacking. We've got pretty much everything you need in terms of, you know, relationships with vendors, leases, calculators, like we'll walk you through the entire process if you need us to just because that process is so scary to like the first person putting their, like 30 of the $40,000, they've saved up for their whole life into one house.   It makes you feel better when you've got a whole team of people with, you know, hundreds of deals under their belt, kind of guiding you through that.   Jesse (31m 23s): Yeah, for sure. And I mean, in terms of the team itself, the, the team that you built out and the coaching that you have, was that something that happened, it seems like you, you had the demand. So you built out the team for those that are building their own team w with real estate, whether it's sourcing real estate, trying to get property managers, what are your recommendations? Kind of some of the stuff that you've found that were helpful to you when you were starting out and you're buying these first few properties,   Craig (31m 52s): I I'd say like, just document your systems as best as you can. Loom is something that I use a lot. So I'm sure people know about it by now, it's a screen recording thing. It's a plug-in on Chrome and anything you do that is repetitive, you should be looming it. Right. And you save it somewhere so that someone else can do it. Right. So, so these days I'm doing very few. I really don't do any showings. I really don't do any contract writing. I've got the team that does that and they can ramp up so easily without asking me hardly any questions, because I literally have videos and videos and templates and samples of all of that.   Right. So we can onboard a new agent pretty quickly and they're up and running very quickly. And the questions they asked me are like high level questions that they should be asking me. And so I can stay kind of in my 20%, which is know content creation coming on, podcasts like this, right. Doing stuff like that to just to just grow the, grow the brand.   Jesse (32m 46s): Yeah. That's great. I love the loom. And it's funny now, like two years or a year and a half after everything, that's, that's really been going on in the world. It's nice that we have zoom, loom, Skype, where you can actually, you know, when you're hiring something, somebody just the other day, my partner and I were like, okay, we can give instructions to this person. Or we could just record the call, the onboarding call. And then, you know, they, he, or she has a reference.   Craig (33m 7s): Yeah. It's, it's so amazing. Like, and I think it's way easier. Like the old fashioned, like paper trail documents, like your type every step-by-step. We have a little bit of that, but the loons are just so much easier and so much better too. Like it's a picture is worth a thousand words. Right. So video's worth like a million.   Jesse (33m 24s): Yeah, no, a hundred percent. A 100%. And then you ha it's, it's more dynamic, right? Yeah. You can have somebody in real time asking you questions and then solve it, solve it right there. Awesome. Well, we have, we've got four questions that we ask every guest that comes on the show and want to be mindful of the time here. But before we get to that, in terms of the coaching that you have for people to reach out we're where can they find find you? And, you know, what's the best route for them to, to take on.   Craig (33m 51s): Yeah. So, you know, we've got our podcast, the fight team podcast is actually being rebranded here shortly. So we're going to come up with a new name, so be on the lookout for that. And then, you know, if you're, if you're in the Denver area or you need a real estate investor from the real estate, Adrian, the fight team.com is where you can find us. And I'm also on Instagram. If you want to just kind of check out my stuff at the fire guy.   Jesse (34m 12s): Absolutely. We'll put a link to everything in the show notes, but yeah, let's go to the final four here. If you're, if you're ready to go, I'll send them your way. Let's do it. Okay. What's something, you know, now in your career, it can be real estate or business that you wish you knew when you first started out.   Craig (34m 30s): I wish I knew the who, not how concept have you heard of, you know, that mother basically. Yeah. That whole thing of why stay in, what do you do best in stay in your zone of what you do best at anything. You don't do good. Hire someone to do it for you. Cause they're not only going to do it better, quicker and probably cheaper, but it's going to also grow your business much faster and you're going to be happier.   Jesse (34m 56s): Yeah. I can't, I can't recommend that book enough when we were at the BP con BiggerPockets conference in new Orleans, I was think Dan Sullivan is the author awesome book. It's it really is. It really changes the way you look at things because for so long, we're taught, you know, if you, if you get somebody to collaborate with you, if you give somebody a task that you're, you know, you're cheating in school. Right. But really the idea of find, find out who's the best person to do that. And it should be, should it be taking up your bandwidth or not? Yep. Love that.   Awesome. All right. Number two here. What is a, a book that you seem to constantly be recommending and we'll put the who not, how on put that aside for a second or podcast that you, that you keep recommending?   Craig (35m 40s): I guess the miracle morning doesn't count either. Cause he already mentioned that one, definitely the miracle morning and who knows how or applied my tattoo a podcast, obviously there's a bigger pockets podcast. That one is kind of a no brainer. Can I just depends on where you are in your journey. But I think like for, for fundamental business books, miracle morning changed my life. Who knows how it changed my life. And also the E-Myth is, is really, really good if you're thinking about growing a business and long people wanting to step away someday.   Jesse (36m 9s): That's great. We'll put links up to those as well. In terms of people that are getting into the industry, people that are, whether it's through brokerage or looking from the investor's lens, what would you tell them in today's market? And just generally your thoughts on mentorship?   Craig (36m 27s): My thoughts. So, so in terms of the market today, I think like you have to just like keep buying no matter what the market's doing, because timing the market is like been known to be fail failure right now, known to fail. So just dollar cost, average it by one a year with the course of 10 years and you'll buy it the highest you'll buy it. The lowest in terms of mentorship and stuff. I think you really, I hate that term mentor. I hate when someone asks me to be their mentor, I kinda just wanna be your friend, right? Like I'll be friends with almost anybody, as long as you're, we've got the same values, the same morals, and we're kind of on the same page.   So just like go to meetups and just start talking to people, right. And then follow up with them and grab a coffee with them and grab dinner with them and go on a hike with them. And before you know it you're, you've got a friend and maybe they're more experienced than you. Then they become your mentor. Right. They're going to naturally just give you advice. They're going to want to help you. And so that's like my favorite way to mentorship is just becoming friends with people that are both above you. So you can be the mentee and below you. So you can be the mentor.   Jesse (37m 25s): That makes sense. All right. The last one, Craig, first car make and model.   Craig (37m 30s): Oh man. He tried to get to my bank accounts. It's a 2002 Dodge. Intrepid was my first car   Jesse (37m 38s): Right on. And I said, that's not the one you put on Turo.   Craig (37m 41s): No, no. The one I put on Turo was a Toyota Prius, which got smashed up. But yeah, that's a fun, fun story. Maybe we'll dive into it real quick. I think I lost you on the yeah.   Jesse (37m 57s): Okay. Yeah, no, you can get into it. Cause I know you put a, you put a blog out as well about, about just different income streams I think. And Turo was a Toro was definitely one of them I believe.   Craig (38m 8s): Yeah. So yeah, back in the day, Touro was a street, was an income stream that I had to kind of while I was at bigger pockets and I could fight to work. And so basically I, I was proud of myself. I read, never split the difference by Chris Boston negotiating book. And I was able to negotiate the price of that car from 12,500 down to 10,000. So I bought the car for 10,000. I Ubered it for awhile. I toll road for awhile. The car probably made me about $10,000 over the course of two years. And then someone crashed on Turo. The Touro com whatever the company has, some insurance policy where they actually paid me out like 11,500 for it.   I ended up like getting more than I ever paid for it initially after, you know, however many miles later. And then I bought a crappy car for like 50, for like five grand and kept the six grand and invested in real estate. So   Jesse (38m 57s): There you go. Always, always on the move. Awesome. All right. Well, we'll put links up to, to everything that we talked about here. And just for those that, you know, I know you have a presence on Instagram as well. Could you just let us know the handle for that as well?   Craig (39m 11s): Yup. It's a, the fire guy. So like the financial independence guy.   Jesse (39m 17s): Awesome. My guest today has been Craig Kurloff Craig. Thanks for being part of working capital.   Craig (39m 21s): Thanks for having me on Jesse. Appreciate you.   Jesse (39m 31s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.  

Matthew Kepnes runs the popular travel blog, Nomadic Matt, and also writes a successful newsletter. In fact, Matt's newsletter is one of the biggest I've had on the show. His book, How to Travel the World on $50, is a New York Times Best Seller.After a 2005 trip to Thailand, Matt decided to leave his job, finish his MBA, and travel the world. Since then, he's been to nearly 100 countries, and hasn't looked back. Besides being a New York Times best-selling author, Matt's writings have been featured in countless publications. He's a regular speaker at travel trade shows, and is the founder of FLYTE, a non-profit organization that sends students overseas to bring their classroom experience to life.I talk with Matt about his unique approach to running his business. While others are building online courses, Matt has shifted to doing more in-person meetups and events. We talk about his newsletter, and we also talk about growing your Instagram follower count, scaling a business as a solopreneur, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: When & why you need to start outsourcing day-to-day tasks Matt's email opt-in strategies and tips to get more subscribers The most important metric about your email list How to quickly get more followers on Instagram Links & Resources Blue Ocean Strategy Matador Lonely Planet Blue Ocean Strategy book Pat Flynn Women In Travel Summit Traverse Cheryl Strayed ConvertKit TravelCon FinCon Podcast Movement World Domination Summit Hootsuite Tim Ferriss Seth Godin OptinMonster Seth Godin: This is Marketing Rick Steves Nathan Barry Show on Spotify Nathan Barry Show on Apple Podcasts Matthew Kepnes' Links Matt's website Follow Matt on Twitter Matt's Instagram The Nomadic Network Nomadic Matt Plus Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Matthew:When I started these courses back in 2013, there wasn't a lot of folks. Now you have so many people with courses, so many Instagrammers and TikTokers selling their stuff. It's sort of like, is this worth the time to really invest in it when my heart really isn't in it? How can I maintain 400K in revenue a year? Is that the best use of our resources? The answer is, not really.[00:00:33] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to my long time friend, Matt Kepnes, from Nomadic Matt.Matt's got a travel blog that's wildly popular, and he gets into that—shares all the numbers. He's probably one of the biggest newsletters that I've had on the show, so far.What I love about him, in particular, is how thoughtful he is about his business model.Most people are just adding more courses and figuring out how to grow revenue; honestly, what's now fairly traditional ways, and it's quite effective. Matt takes another approach. He gets into in-person events and meetups. We get to talk about why in a busy, crowded online world, he's actually going offline.I think that Blue Ocean Strategy he references, the popular book by the same title, I think it's interesting, and it's something worth considering when some of the online strategies don't work. We also get into a bunch of other things like growing his newsletter. Like I said, it's quite large.Then, also growing an Instagram following. Instagram is not something that I'm going to actively pursue, but it's interesting hearing his approach of what you do if you're at 5,000 followers on Instagram, and want to grow to 50,000 or more.So, anyway, enjoy the episode.If you could do me a favor and go subscribe on Spotify or iTunes, or wherever you listen if you aren't subscribed already, and then write a review.I check out all the reviews. Really appreciate it. It helps in the rankings, and I'm just looking to grow the show.So, anyway, thanks for tuning in today. Let's go talk to Matt.Matt, welcome to the show.[00:02:06] Matthew:Thanks for having me, Nathan. I've been trying to get on this podcast for ages.[00:02:10] Nathan:Well, don't say that, that'll make people think they can get on just by asking. Really, you came to my house and stayed in my cottage on the farm, and then you're like, “Yo, have me on the podcast!” And that's when I was like, “Absolutely.” But if anyone just asked, that would not be a thing.[00:02:26] Matthew:No, I just mean I finally—I'm excited that I'm worthy enough in my blogging career to be on.[00:02:33] Nathan:Oh, yes.[00:02:35] Matthew:I've made it.[00:02:36] Nathan:Yeah. It's only taken you, what, a decade and a half?[00:02:39] Matthew:13 and a half years. Slow and steady wins the race.[00:02:43] Nathan:That's right.I actually want to start talking about that side of it, because I've been in the blogging world for 11 years now. But even I feel like things changed so much in the first couple of years, even before I entered into the world. So, I'm curious, going back to the early days, what were the prompts for you to come into the blogging world and say, “Hey, I'm going to start publishing online”?[00:03:10] Matthew:Yeah. You know, it was a very haphazard, there was no grand plan. Like I had Zanger when people had Zeno's, which is, you know, a personal blog, way back, you know, 2003, whatever. And so what, I went on my trip around the world in 2006, I just kept updating this Zynga. You know, it was called, Matt goes the world and it was just like, here I am friends here I am.And then, you know, everyone was really excited in the beginning. And then after a while I got sick in my update because the know their back of their office job. So I kinda just forgot about it until I came home and January, 2008 and I need money. And so I started a temp job, and I had a lot of free time and I really just hated being back in the, the office with the walls and everything.And so I was like, I need to earn money to keep traveling. And so I started the website really as with the goal of it being an online resume, you know, it was very bare bones. I used to share a travel news, have an update, like tips and stories from my trip. And then there was a section where we're like, hire me and it had my features and, you know, the guest blogs I did, I used to write for Matador travel.So just as a way to sort of build up, a portfolio of like, Hey, Yeah, freelance writing because I'm wanting to read guidebooks, you know, I wanted to write for lonely planet. That was a dream, right. The guidebooks. And so just the blog was a way to hone my skills and just get in front of editors to be like, Hey look, I do right.You know, here's where I've been, you know, and, and sort of build that base. And eventually that became a thing where I didn't need to freelance. Right.[00:05:03] Nathan:Was it called nomadic Matt from the beginning.[00:05:06] Matthew:He was, yeah. I B two names, nomadic Matt. And that does the world. Right. Because I like the double entendre of it. Right. Even though, but just cause I have a weird sense of humor and all my friends were like, you can't do that one. You gotta do nomadic Matt. It was really good because it's much better brand name, you know, in the long run.But again, I wasn't thinking about that. Right. I wasn't thinking like, oh, I'm going to start this brand. You know, I gotta think of a clever name that people can remember. It was like,Oh a place where people can see my work.[00:05:39] Nathan:Right. Okay. So now 13 and a half years later, what's the, what's the, the blog and newsletter look like. and I want to dive into the business side of it because I think a lot of people build successful newsletters, audience-based businesses, but don't make the leap to like something bigger than themselves.And so I want to dive into all those aspects of it.[00:06:01] Matthew:13 years later, it's seven people. We just hired a new events coordinator to help. my director of events, Erica, coordinate all these virtual in person events that we're going to kick off again. I have a full-time tech guy, a full-time director of content. We changed his title, but like three research assistants, because.I picked a niche that like is always changing. Right. You know, you have a fitness website, how to do a pull up. It's just, that's it,[00:06:37] Nathan:You ranked for that keyword. You're good to go.[00:06:40] Matthew:Yeah. Like how to do a pull up, doesn't change what to do in Paris or the best hospitals in Paris, constantly changing, you know? so it takes three resources, distance.Plus my content guy, me that basically keep up the content and then I have a part-time, graphic designer and part-time social coordinator.[00:07:00] Nathan:Nice. And how many subscribers do you have in the list now?[00:07:03] Matthew:We just called it, so it's a two 50 because we just, cause I haven't shaved it off in like five years or so. So we basically everybody that hasn't opened the email in one year where we're like, you want to be on.And like 2% of them click that button. And then we just got rid of the other 90%. It was like 60,000 names.[00:07:30] Nathan:Yeah. So for everyone listening, two 50 in this case means 250,000.[00:07:35] Matthew:Yeah.[00:07:36] Nathan:Just to clarify, I 7% businesses off of 250 subscribers would be remarkable. That would be just as impressive, but that's not what we're talking about here. going into, so a lot of people, talk about or worry about, should I prune my list or that kind of thing?What were the things that went into that for you? That's a big decision to, to prune 60,000 people off a list.[00:08:00] Matthew:I think it was probably more, maybe I want to say six 60 to 80 I somewhere around there. we were pushing up against our account before I went to the next billing step.So that's always a good impetus to prune the list, but you know, I I've been thinking about it for a while because. You know, I I really want to see what my true open rate.Is You know, like, okay, I have all these people and we were sending it this, I have multiple lists, but the main weekly list was like, 310,000-315,000 but it's been so long since we called and we have so many emails there and I just really wanted to get a true sense of like, what's our active audience.And so between, between that and, pushing up against the next tier price tier. Yeah. it yeah. It's cool to say like, oh, we have 300,000 300, you know, rather than 250,000 Right. But who cares? Right. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just a vanity metric, right? Yeah. It sounds cool. I get a million emails. Right. But if you only have a 10% open rate, You really only have 100,000.[00:09:20] Nathan:Right. I think that the times that it matters is maybe when you're selling a book to a publisher and that might be the only time that you like that dead weight and your email us actually helps you.[00:09:33] Matthew:Yeah. Like if you're, or you have a course, you know, are you trying to promote your numbers, but people would probably lie about that stuff too. yeah, so like, it really doesn't matter because all that matters is like, what's your true audience? Like who Who are the people that are really opening your stuff?[00:09:50] Nathan:Yeah. So let's dive into the, well, I guess really quick, I should say I am a hundred percent in the camp of, like delete subscribers, like do that once a year, that kind of thing. Clean up the list, go for the highest number of engaged subscribers, rather than the highest number of subscribers. It's just[00:10:06] Matthew:Right.[00:10:07] Nathan:To track.[00:10:08] Matthew:And, and I think you would know better than me, but isn't this a good. Like signal to Gmail. And you know, when you, you don't have a lot of dead emails, just go into a blank account. It's never getting opened or marked as spam or whatever.[00:10:24] Nathan:Yeah, for sure. Cause a lot of these times, there's a couple of things that happen. One is emails get converted to spam traps. And so it's like say someone's signed up for your email list six years ago And, they haven't logged into that email account for a long time.Google and others will take it and convert it to a spam trap and say, Hey, this email hasn't been logged into in six years.And so anyone sending to it, it's probably not doing legit things now you're over here. Like, no that person signed up for my list, but they're basically like you should have cleaned them off your list years ago. And then if that person were to ever come back and log into that Gmail account, do you remember like, oh, just kidding here, have the, have the email account back, but they're basically using that.And so you can follow all the. Best practices as far as how people join your list. But if you're not cleaning it, then you will still end up getting these like spam hits and, and other things. So you absolutely clean your list. Let's talk the business side, on revenue, I don't know what you want to share on the, on revenue numbers, but I'd love to hear any numbers you're willing to share.And then the breakdown of where that comes from, whether it's membership, courses, conferences, that sort of thing.[00:11:35] Matthew:Yeah.So there's like the pre COVID world and the post COVID world. Right. You know, like,[00:11:40] Nathan:Yes.[00:11:41] Matthew:Cause I work in travel, so like, you know, pre COVID we did over a million and like I was probably gearing up to like in 2020, like one, five, I think I were going to get a little over one five. and again, you know, this is, I work in the budget travel side of things, right.So like it's going to sell a lot of $10 eBooks to get up to seven figures. salary books are 10 bucks. and so. Postcode during COVID week, I think in 2020 made like half a million. and this year we'll probably get up to three quarters,[00:12:23] Nathan:Okay.[00:12:24] Matthew:K.[00:12:25] Nathan:He was coming back,[00:12:26] Matthew:Yeah. Yeah. and I think next year we'll, we'll get back over seven and then basically like how to go from there.You know, so maybe 20, 23, I might get to that one, five that was going to get to in 2020. most of the revenue now comes from ads, and then affiliates. we did, we did do a lot on courses, but then I, one of the things that, you know, a big pandemic that stops your business, allows you to do is really look at the things you're doing because every.Zero. So it's like when we start back up, is this worth investing time in? And so the answer is no. So we dropped down from, I think, peak of doing like $400,000 a year and horses, and this year we'll do maybe 40. and that's mostly because we just leave it up as like, you can buy this, we update it every six months.If it needs, it's basically like a high that blog course get all my numbers and tactics and strategies in there. but we don't offer any support for it. Right. It's just, you're buying information. and so it's very passive in that sense, but it's not like a core business where we're really moving and we were doing this pre COVID is moving into events and membership programs.So like we have pneumatic map plus, which gets you like all our guides, monthly calls and sort of like a Patriot on kind of thing, but like free.[00:14:03] Nathan:That cost.[00:14:04] Matthew:Five to 75 bucks a month, depending on what you want. So it's 5 25, 75. Most people opt for the five, of course. And it's really geared to like, get the five.But you know, that brings now, I think like three or four K a month. and then we have the events, which is donation based, but there's just like another two K a month. And so this is like, since COVID right. So like, that's say call it 50 K a year of, of revenue that we've added in. They didn't exist before.And now I know you're, you can compare that against the loss of the courses, but we had been phasing those out for years. and so that's really where we want to grow is bringing in more, you know, monthly revenue for that. Right. You know, Once we started, it's easy and we're gonna start doing tours again and, you know, so more high value things that don't take as much time.[00:15:08] Nathan:Right. So on the core side, I think a lot of people listening, maybe they have an email list of five, 10, 15,000 subscribers, and they're like, Hey, the next thing is to launch a course. And they're hearing that's where a bunch of the revenue is. And so it's interesting you moving away from that. So let's dive in more.What, what made you look at the core side of your business and say, I don't want to like restart that in a post COVID world.[00:15:33] Matthew:Yeah, there's just, there's a lot of competition, right? So like, I think it was like a blue ocean, red ocean strategy, you know, to think of that book of, you know, Blue Ocean Strategy. Right? One of the reasons we went into events is because a lot of our traffic comes from Google. And so it's a constant battle of always trying to be one or, you know, in the first couple of spots.Right with every blogger in every company with SEO budget, but there's not a lot of people doing in-person events or building sort of a community in the travel space. So I looked at that of being like, okay, there are a lot of people doing courses and they love doing courses and they're great teachers, you know, they're, you know, you get folks who know like path when, you know, low, like everyone, all these teachable folks, you know, they, they love that stuff.That's not where my heart really was. And so thinking of like, this is a red ocean now, because you have, when I started this, these courses back in 2013, there wasn't a lot of folks. Right. But now you have so many people with courses, so many Instagrammers and tic talkers selling their stuff. It's sort of like, is this worth the time.To like really invest in it when my heart really isn't right. Like how can I maintain your 400 K in revenue a year?[00:17:02] Nathan:Right.[00:17:03] Matthew:What's it going to take, you know, is that the best use of our resources? And the answer is not really, you know, let other people do that. Who love it. I mean, you want to buy my information.It's it's solid stuff. Right. Everyone loves the advice, but to really create like a cohort, like your class, which is sort of like the new version of courses, you know, like, whether it's a month or three months, it's sort of like, you go with this like cohort, right. My heart really wasn't into it because we can invest more in doing events and conferences and really in-person stuff.Especially now that everyone's really excited to do stuff in person again, with a lot less competition. It's easy. It's easy to start a course, but there's a lot of capital investment in doing events that we have the resource to do that, you know, somebody with a 10,000 email list might not.[00:18:03] Nathan:I think I see a lot of people going into courses in, particularly as you alluded to cohort based courses where they're doing it, like, Hey, this is a whole class that you're doing, you know, you're doing the fall semester for the month of October or whatever it is, I'm doing it, doing it the first time and really enjoying it because it's a new challenge they're showing up for their audience.It's just, it's super fun on that, doing it for the second time and going, huh? Okay. That was way easier and way less. And then the third time they go, I don't think I want to do this anymore. Like if the money is good and I just don't enjoy showing up at a set time for a zoom call or whatever else. So it's interesting of watching people jump on a bandwagon and some people it works for really well, and that is their strength and they love it.And then other people that I'm going to like, look, the money's good. And this is this just, isn't what I want to spend my time on.[00:19:02] Matthew:Yeah. You know, I've been doing it for, you know, seven, eight years now and I just sort of lost the passion for, you know, I think it's, I like when people take the information, they succeed with it. But I think after a while you start to realize, you know, it's sort of a 90 10 rule, right? You, 90% of your students, aren't really going to do anything with it.And it's not your fault. It's just because they become unmotivated or, you know, so we tried to switch to the cohort based to be like, okay, this is the class weekly, weekly calls.You know, come on, come together and you still get this drop off rate. That's, you know, sort, it gets this hard and you're like, all right, I've been doing this for eight years, you know, like moving on.But I mean, if you have the love for like pat loves it, you know, like you've got a whole team about it, he's got all these cohorts stuff that speaks to him where I think I'd rather do stuff in person that[00:20:01] Nathan:Right.Well, let's talk about the in-person side. Cause you did something that most people think is really cool and almost no one realizes how hard it is. I think I know how hard it is because I've attempted the same thing and that starting at a conference where everyone's like, you have this big online following, like what you just need to, you know, you have hundreds of thousands of people you just need, I don't know, 500 or a thousand of them to show up in a suit, that's gotta be easy.Right. And so they go and sort of conference, it's wildly difficult. And so.[00:20:33] Matthew:Difficult.[00:20:34] Nathan:I'd love to hear what made you want to start the conference and then yeah, how's it. How's it gone so far?[00:20:40] Matthew:Made me want to start the conference was I really don't think there's a good conference in the chapel space. Yeah. And there are good conferences in the travel space that are very niche and narrow. you know, like there's a woman in travel summit.That's really great. There's one in Europe culture verse, which I liked, but that's like a couple of hundred people there. Wasn't like a, something to scale, right. With wits, which is women to travel is like 300 people. There was, this is no thousand person, 2000 parts. And like mega travel conference for media that has done like, you know, the conferences we go to where it's like high level, you know, people coming outside of your immediate niche to talk about business skills.You know, there's, you know, In the conferences, there are, there's always the same travel, like it's me and like these other big names, travel bloggers over and over and over again. I want to take what I've seen and, you know, from social media world to, trafficking conversion, to mastermind talks, you know, to take all these things that I had gone to, we were like, let's bring it together for travel.Let's create a high level, not a cheap, like hundred dollar events, like, you know, with major keynotes who get paid to speak, because you know, in a lot of travel conferences, you don't get paid to speak, right? So you're high. You're going to get, you know, Cheryl strayed that come to your event for free.That's not waking up to do that. You know, I, you know, and while I can get nice deals from my friends, you still got to pay people right. For their time. And, and so that allows us to have a larger pool of people to create the event that I want to do. Because we will also get into the point where why should somebody who's been blogging for five or six years, go to travel blogging conference app when nobody is at a more advanced stage of blogging than you are, you know, nobody understands SEO better than you do, right?So like after a while you get into this, just drop off of people being like, do I want to fly around the world and hang out with my friends? So I wanted to also create an event where that I could go to and learn something is that I knew that would attract some of the other OJI, travel bloggers.[00:23:06] Nathan:Yeah. So how the, how the first one go, like what was easier than you expected and what was much harder than you.[00:23:14] Matthew:The first one went really well. We had 650 people, and you know, the next one we had 800. But now we're closed because of Kobe, but we're going to do one in 20, 22. And hopefully we get 800 again, things that shocked me, people buy tickets and don't show up. Right. That's weird. Right. Cause I was like, okay, we have 700, you know, I expected maybe like a 5% attrition rate, you know?So like I sold my 750 tickets, but then like six 50, those 600 showed up because the other 50 of those speakers, right. I was like, wow, that's a lot of no-shows for not achieving conference, you know? And so we plan, you know, a 10% attrition rate now.[00:24:04] Nathan:And you just mean someone who doesn't even pick up their badge? Not even, they didn't come to share us rates keynote, but just like they didn't show up to anything at the conference.[00:24:13] Matthew:Yeah, they just did not show up to the conference at all, you know? And. So that was a shock me. I mean, I know I work in travel and, you know, people get last minute of press trips or they, you know, they buy their ticket and they can't come cause, or they got stuck in the Seychelles or whatever, but I did not expect such a high level of no-shows. Because the food here's another thing, food costs a lot of money. Right.You know, I, I fully understand why the airlines took one olive out of your salad. Right. Because it's one olive, but times a million people every day it's actually adds up. Right. So like you think, oh, well it drinks five bucks.That's cool. We'll do a happy hour. Okay. Now times that by a thousand drinks Write, you know, times two, because everyone's drinking two or three, at least two. Right. So then you're like, okay, that's a $15,000 bill that you ended up with. you know, when everyone is all set up. Tax and tip hotel.It's crazy. It's like, okay, these fees, you're like, oh, I got to spend this like, yeah. Okay. Here is your lunch bill 50 grand.But then there's this fee that fee, this fee, this fee like Jake had like 65. You're like, all right. I guess I got a budget for that too. So that was, that was really weird. Like high is the lunch cost, $40,000, you know, and actually hotels, overcharge, and they add a bunch of fees and yeah, you can get them pretty quick.[00:25:46] Nathan:So if you were, if I was starting to conference. They have 50,000 people on a email list or a hundred thousand. And I'm like, Matt, I heard you started a conference. I'm going to do it too. What advice do you have for me? Like what are the first things that you'd call out?[00:26:03] Matthew:It's going to cost like three times more than you think. pricing. Where I went wrong in the second year. Right. So like we've lost money the first two years doing it, but I expected to lose money. It wasn't because I was investing in this long-term thing. Right. But we're at where I lost more money on the second year is that I really factor in flights as well as I did, like I kind of low balled it.And so I always think he should. Oh. And I also invited, I kept inviting people without really seeing, like, where was I? on my like speaker fees. Right. So like really creating a budget and then sticking to it. And even if that means not getting some of your dream folks, to a later year, but working up the food and beverage costs first, because you know, you go to the hotel and they're going to say your F and B, you know, is $90,000.And if they never going to hit that, no, you're going to go way. You're going to blow cause you got to get them to say, what are all the fees? You know, like, okay. You know, if I have a 300 person conference and I want to do two lunches, what does that look like?Plus all the taxes and fees,[00:27:23] Nathan:Okay, well, you, the launch price and you'll, you'll pencil that into your spreadsheet and they'll fail to mention that there's mandatory gratuity on top of that and taxes and whatever[00:27:33] Matthew:Yeah,And whatever, you know, plate fee there is. Right. So you gotta factor all that in and then look at what you got left.[00:27:40] Nathan:It's like when you're buying a car and you have to talk in terms of the out the door price in[00:27:45] Matthew:Yeah.[00:27:46] Nathan:The sticker price,[00:27:47] Matthew:Yeah. I made that mistake when I bought my car last year, I was like, oh 17. And I was like, wait, how did 17 go from 17,000 to 22? And like, well,[00:27:56] Nathan:Right.[00:27:57] Matthew:Thing that I was like, ah, okay,[00:28:00] Nathan:Yeah. Do you think w what are some of the opportunities that have come out from running the conference and has it had the effects of your community that you've hoped? It would,[00:28:10] Matthew:You know, this is a very, blogger faced event, you know, more than just travel consumers. but it's definitely allowed me to, you know, meet folks like Cheryl Austrade, you know, great way to meet your heroes. Is there pay them to come speak at a conference? so, you know, I, I know Cheryl, like, that's cool.The becoming more ingrained in sort of the, the PR side and with the demos and the brands, because, you know, on the website, I destination marketing organization.[00:28:44] Nathan:Okay.[00:28:45] Matthew:So they're like, you know, visit, you know, Boise visit Idaho, we call them a DMO. And so like since I don't really do press trips on the website, I don't know a lot of them really well.And so this has been a way to be, become more ingrained on that sort of industry side of events and not live in my own. and that's helpful because now I know all these folks, when we want to have meetups that might be sponsored when I do a consumer event, which is next up. So get these folks to come for that.So it's just really been good, just professionally to meet a lot of people that I would normally just not meet simply because I go to events and they were like, Hey, come to our destination, we'll give you a free trip. And like, you have a policy. And so I don't get invited to as many things as you would think.[00:29:37] Nathan:Yeah. Why, why do you have that policy? What do you like? What's behind it. And why is that different from other travel bloggers?[00:29:45] Matthew:Hi, it mostly stems from my hatred of reciprocity. You know, like if you, if I go on a free trip and it sucks, like I then create, it's awkward. If I have to go like hot, like, Hey, you suck. And I have to write this online. Then it creates a lot of bad blood that gets talked about, you know, it's a very small industry.People move around a lot, so you get less opportunities or I can just go, Hey, I'm not going to write that. And then they feel bad. Cause like, you know, like you're a nice person just doing their job, you know, like it's not your fault. I had a bad time. you know, I did this once with a friend and she gave me a couple of places to stay, at a hotel in San Jose, Costa Rica and chill out and sort of tell was really far out of town.And th the amount it took me to take a taxi back and forth. Like, I could've just got a place right. In the center of San Jose, you know? And so I was like, I really, I just don't think it's a good fit for my Anya. And she was very unhappy about it. I was like, I mean, I could write in, but I have to say that.Right. Yeah. And so I just never wanted to put myself in those situations again. I also think that taking a lot of free travel, like I do budget travel. So you given me a resort like that. Doesn't how does that help my audience? So if I start living this awesome life and getting free stuff, that's great for me, but it's not good for my audience.And so I don't mind taking free tours. Like, let's say I'm going to go to Scotland. Right? I did. This actually was real life example. I wanted to access cause I wanted to write about scotch. So I was like, Hey, I don't want to do like the public tour. you know, that 20 bucks, you know, it's like 10 minutes and you get the, I like, I want to talk to people because I want quotes for articles.I'm going to do like history stuff. So I contacted the Scottish tourism board and they got, got me visited. I that's where I went to. I just love P scotch. and so they got me like private tours. So I can like take notes in such. and they gave me a free accommodation that I was like, I want to be really clear about this.I'm not mentioning this place. And they're like, just, just take it. And so, and I didn't mention it and I didn't mention that, you know, I got access to these, you know, distillers to ask some questions, but it was more about building this article as a journalist than,Hey, I want like free tours, you know, like, I mean, I saved 20 bucks. Right. But the point was, I wanted to learn about the process to write about this story beam. And then they offered me free flights and stuff. It was like, now I just, I just want the tourist, please. Thanks.[00:32:44] Nathan:Yeah, it's interesting of the, what a lot of people would view as the perks to get into travel blogging. Right. I want to get into it because then I'd have these free chips or I can have these offs or whatever else, I guess the right apps you get, no matter what, but, You know that that's the other side of like, everything comes with a cost.And I think it's important to realize what you're doing because you want to versus what you're doing, because now you feel obligated because someone gave you something for free.[00:33:12] Matthew:Yeah. The most thing is I tend to accept our city tourism part, which gets you like free access to museums and stuff. I was like, okay, that's cool.But beyond that, I just, you know, I don't want to get into, like, you want to give me a museum pass. I'm going to see these museums anyway. Sure. I'll save some money and I'll, I'll make a wheel note, but I'm going to no obligation to write about which museum, because I write about the ones I like anyway.So,[00:33:39] Nathan:Right.[00:33:40] Matthew:You know, that's not to me like free travel. That's not what people think of Like the perks of. the job are.[00:33:46] Nathan:I, that was funny. When I learned about the, like the welcome packet that cities will, will give, like the first time I saw it in action was. I went to Chris, Guillebeau's like end of the world party in Norway. and I was hanging out with Benny Lewis there who runs, you know, fluent in three months, a mutual friend of both of ours.You've known him longer than I have, but like, we're both at our check into the hotel and he's got like this whole thing of all these museum passes he's got, and he's just like, yeah, I just emailed the tourism board and said, I was going to say, and they're like, oh, blogger. And they gave him like, you know, access to everything and you only ended up using half of it because we weren't there for that long, but,[00:34:28] Matthew:Yeah. That's great. You should always get these discount cards, like the comparison museum pass or the New York mic go card that will save you a lot of money if you're doing lots of heavy sites in.[00:34:39] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. okay. So how does actually let's dive into the COVID side, right? Cause COVID took a hit huge hit on the entire traveling. we saw that just in the like running ConvertKit where, you know, having bloggers in so many different areas, we had a lot of growth because lots of people were stuck at home and start like, I'm going to start a new blog.I'm going to have time to, to work on this or whatever. And it was a lot of cancellations, mostly from the travel industry. If people like, look now that what this 50,000 person list, that was a huge asset is now just a giant liability. because no one's planning trips. How did you navigate that time? And what, like, what's the journey been?You know, the last 18 months, two years,[00:35:28] Matthew:Well first I would say that's really shortsighted of someone canceling their 50,000 person list like[00:35:34] Nathan:I think they were like exporting sitting on it and they're going to come back. But, but I agree. It was very shortsighted.[00:35:39] Matthew:Yeah. Like just like throw it away. 50,000 emails, right. I mean, it was tough in the beginning. You know, we went from like January and February were like best months ever, you know? And like, I mean, even, and then all of a sudden like, like March 13th is like that Friday, you know, it's like everything crashes, like again, like we were on our way to have a banner year, like, like, like hand over fist money, you know?And, and then to being like, how am I going to pay the bills? You know? and so, cause you know, we, haven't sort of the, the overhang from Java con, right. You know, like we didn't make money on the first two years. And year three was the, the breakeven year and travel con was in, Right in the world ended in March.Right. And so I had laid out all, like, you're so close to the event, that's you? That's when you start paying your bills. Right. And the world hits and all the sponsors who, you know, have their money, you know, in the accounting department are like, oh, we're not paying this now. And so you're like, well, I've just paid $80,000 in deposits and all that money that was going to offset.It has gone. and then you have people canceling. A lot of people were really mean about it. They're like, oh, I'm, I'm back now. And we're going to do charge backs, that, you know, you have that overhang and just, you know, fall in revenue it's it was really tough. thank God for government loans, to be quite honest, like I, I went to native through if it wasn't for, all that, because a lot of my.My money was tied up in non-liquid assets. So it wasn't like I could just like sell some socks though, you know, pay the bills. but things have come back a lot. I mean, there's a lot of paint up the man, for travel, I view it like this way, right? You got kids, right. You know, they get in trouble, you take away their toy and then you give them back.Right. Where do they want to do now? They just want to play with that toy even more because it's like, no, it's mine. No one else can have it. And like where you want to do this other toy. No. And so now that the toy of travel is being given back to people like people are like, never again, am I going to miss out on this opportunity to travel on my dream trips?Let's make it happen. So we had a really good summer. I spoke to mediocre fall and winter just as the kids are back in school, people are traveling less, you know, but as more in the world, that? will be good. but again, as I said, at the beginning of this, it's going to take awhile for us to get, to get back to where we were, but there's definitely demand there,[00:38:36] Nathan:When's the next conference when the travel con happening again.[00:38:39] Matthew:April 29th,[00:38:41] Nathan:Okay.[00:38:41] Matthew:22,[00:38:42] Nathan:So what's the how of ticket sales benefit for that? Is there like that pent-up demand showing up and people booking conference tickets or are they kind of like, wait and see, you know, you're not going to cancel this one too kind of thing.[00:38:55] Matthew:Yeah, I mean, we're definitely not canceling it. I mean, the world would have to really end for it. We just launched, this week. So, early October, we just announced our first round of speakers. and we sold like 10 or 15 tickets. I don't expect a lot of people, to buy until the new year I saw this.And the old event, right? Because in the old event we were had in May, 2019. Right. And we announced in the fall, but it wasn't until like, you know, a few months prior that people started buy their ticket. Right. Because they don't know where they're going to be. You know, where are they flying from? What were the COVID rules going to be like, the demand is there.But I, I know people are probably just waiting and seats for their own schedule too, you know? So, but you were against so 800 tickets and honestly, from what I've heard from other events, you know, people are selling out, you know, because there was such demand, like it's not a problem of selling the tickets, so I'm not sure.[00:40:01] Nathan:Yeah, one thing, this is just a question that I'm curious for myself. since I also run a conference, what do you think about conferences that rotate cities or like Mo you know, move from city to city, which we've been to a lot of them that do it. You know, the fin con podcast movement areTwo longer running ones that you and I have both been to. obviously that's what you're doing. The travel column. well, domination summit, which we've both been to a lot, you know, it was like very much it's Portland. It's always Portland. We'll never be anywhere anywhere else. What do you think, why did you chose? Why did you choose the approach that you did in what you think the pros and cons are?[00:40:39] Matthew:Yeah, for, for me it was, you know, we're in travel. I wanted to travel. Right. And plus, you know, I mean, you get up, we get a host, right? So like Memphis is our sponsor. Right. It's in Memphis. Yeah, it was supposed to be in new Orleans. New Orleans was our host sponsor. Right. So moving it from city to city allows us to get, you know, a new host sponsor every year is going to pony up a bunch of money.Right. I don't know how Podcast move into it, but I think if I wasn't in travel and it was more something like traffic and conversion, or maybe we'll domination summit, I would probably do it in the same place over and over again because you get better consistency. you know, one of the things I hate about events is that they move dates and move locations.Right. And, and so it's a little hard to in travel cause you know, COVID really screwed us. Right. But we're moving to being, you know, in the same timeframe, right. We're always going to be in early May. That's where I want to fall into like early may travel car, change the city, but you got the same two-week window, because it's hard to plan, right?So like if you're changing dates in cities, you're, you're just off of a year. So I wanted some consistency, make it easier for people to know, like in their calendar, Java con early Mac, Java con, early Mac, you[00:42:17] Nathan:Yep.[00:42:18] Matthew:It doesn't really work out cause of COVID, but post COVID we're we're moving to that, that, early may[00:42:24] Nathan:Yeah. Okay. So let's talk more about sort of scaling different between different levels of the business. So there's a lot of people who say, all right, 10, 20, 50,000 subscribers, somewhere in there. And it's very much the solopreneur of like, this is, I'm a writer. I just do this myself. Or maybe they, you know, contract out graphic design or a little bit more than that.What were some of the hardest things for you and why and what worked and what didn't when you made the switch from it being nomadic, Matt being just Matt to Matt plus a team.[00:43:00] Matthew:Yeah, it It's definitely hard to give up that control, right. Because you always think no one can do your business better than you can. And I mean, even to this day, I still have issues doing, you know, giving up control. Right.[00:43:14] Nathan:What's something that you don't want to, that you're like still holding onto that, you know, you need to let go of[00:43:19] Matthew:Probably just little things like checking in on people and, you know, Content probably like Content. I'm very specific about my voice, the voice we have. So. But I should let my content, people make the content that I know is fine. but I definitely, probably overly check on my teams to be like, what'd you do today?You know, you know, that kind of stuff. but I did take a vacation recently and I went offline for a week and they didn't run the thing down. So I was like, oh right. That was my like, okay, I can, I can let go. And it's going to be okay. But, so getting comfortable with that much earlier on, I would probably save you a lot of stress and anxiety.I definitely think you should move to at least having somebody, you know, a part-time VA, if you're making over six figures, hire somebody because you know, how are you are not going to go from a 100k to 500k really by yourself? Unless, you know, you just have some crazy funnel that you do, but even the people I know who are solopreneurs, they still have two or three people helping them a little bit part, even if it's just part-time because the more money you make, the more time you have to spend keeping that income up.And so your goal as the creator in the owner should be, how can I grow? How can I make more money? It should not be setting up your WordPress blog. You know, It should not be answering joke emails It should not be, you know, scheduling your social media on Hootsuite, that kind of low level stuff can be done by, you know, a part-time VA And maybe that part-time VA becomes a full-time VA as you scale up more. But you know, if you, you have to free up your time and you're never going to free up your time, if you're spending a lot of that time, scheduling. So you mean that the people I know who have half a million dollar businesses, selling courses, you know, and they're really just a solopreneur.They have somebody do that grunt work, right. Plus if you're making that much money, is that the best use of your time now? Really? Right. So getting somebody to do sort of the admin front work, as soon as you can, even if it's on a part-time basis will allow you to focus on growth marketing, and monetization, which is where you should be like Podcast.This week. I have like four or five podcasts I'm doing, right. You know, that is a good chunk of my week. If I have to spend that time scheduling on social media, you know, or setting up blog posts, like I can do that. And this is where the growth in the audience comes in.[00:46:12] Nathan:Okay. So since we're talking about growth, what are the things that you can tie to the effort that you put in that drives growth? Are there direct things or is it a very indirect unattributable[00:46:27] Matthew:Yeah, I think there's some direct things like, you know, before, you know, asking 10 years ago, I would say guest posting on websites. Right. You write a guest post on like Confederacy's site and boom, tons of traffic. Right. that doesn't exist anymore. I mean, yeah. You can get a lot of traffic, but it's not like the huge windfall it used to be, but it's still good for brand awareness.SEO. Great for links. Right. I would say things today that I can tie directly to stuff Podcast and, Instagram. So doing, like, doing a joint Instagram live with another creator. Right. You know, like me and, you know, it's I know pat. because someone with a big following there, we do, we do a talk, you know, 30 minutes, you know, I can see in my analytics, like a huge spike in my following right after that.And so that's a great way to sort of grow your audience is to do Instagram collabs in just like 30 minutes tops and[00:47:32] Nathan:Podcasts[00:47:33] Matthew:I get a lot of people will be like, I saw you on this podcast. I was like, wow, cool.[00:47:37] Nathan:I always struggle with that of like, of all the activities that you can do. Cause you get to a point where there's just so many opportunities open to you and it's like, which are the best use of time. What should you say yes to, what should you say no to, and I don't know. Do you have a filter along those or do you just, is it just kind of gut-feel[00:47:53] Matthew:I will say yes to any text-based interview, normally it is the same questions over and over again. So I sort of have a lot of canned responses that I can just kind of paste. and tweak But those are links, so I'm like, sure. Yeah. Send your questions over. Cut paste, tweak, you know, you know,[00:48:12] Nathan:Customize[00:48:13] Matthew:Customize a little bit, but you know, how many times do I need to rewrite from scratch?How'd you get into blogging, you know, what's your favorite country, Podcasts I definitely have a bigger filter on like you, I don't do new podcasts.[00:48:27] Nathan:Okay.[00:48:27] Matthew:I know that's like bad. because you know, this new podcast could become the next big thing, but come back to me when you have some following.[00:48:36] Nathan:I like Seth, Godin's rule I'm not on south Dakotan's level by any means, but he says like, come back to me. When you have 100 episodes, I will happily be your 100th interview on your podcast or something[00:48:47] Matthew:Yeah.[00:48:48] Nathan:And he's just like, look, Put in your time and then we'll talk.[00:48:51] Matthew:Yeah, so I like, I don't look for just following, but like again, you know, knowing that people give up on blogs, people give up Podcast too. So. You know, you have to have been doing it for like six months a year, like week a weekly, you know? So I know like this something you care about. and I like to listen because you know, you get a lot of new people and they're not really great.You know, they asked us like a lot of canned questions and you're like, listen, you're taking, you know, an hour, hour and a half of my time. You gotta make it interesting for me.Well, yeah, Podcast. And then for Instagram stories you gotta have, or Instagram lives, either a brand new audience, or if you're in travel, at least 75,000.Cause I have like a one 30, so I want to keep it in the same in a level.[00:49:43] Nathan:Yeah.I know nothing about Instagram and promotions on Instagram and all of that is there. If someone were to, like, in my case, if I came to you and say, Hey, I want to grow my Instagram following. I've got 3000 people or 5,000 people or something like that. And I want to be have 50,000 a year from now.Where would you point me?[00:50:05] Matthew:I would say, do you join Instagram lives with people like once a week, you know, and just, or maybe once a week for you and then go to somebody else on their side once a week. So, and just kind of work your way up, like find people in your, your sort of follower count level, you know? So in this case, I'd probably do, you know, you know, 1000 to 5,000, I would look for in your niche and like get online for 30 minutes and talk about whatever it is you want to talk about and and then go to someone else's channel and do that, and then keep doing that because you'll just see giant spikes and then you can move up the the ladder.Then you have 10,000 followers and someone with 25,000 followers might give you the time of day. And then you talk about that, you know, and you just sort of build awareness because you're always there. You're always around.[00:51:03] Nathan:It's a really good point about the figuring out what those rough bands are and reaching out within those. Because I think a lot of people are like, I'm going to go pitch whoever on doing Instagram live together. And it's like, you have 5,000 and they have 150,000. And like the content might be a perfect fit, but they're most likely going to say no, because you're not[00:51:24] Matthew:Yeah.[00:51:24] Nathan:Driving that much value for, or that many subscribers for their audience.[00:51:29] Matthew:Yeah. You know, and so you, maybe I would, you know, someone was like a finance blogger, and they had like 40,000, 30, 40,000. I'd probably.We do it because people who like to say money, like say money on travel. So it'd be like, there's probably a good fit. And you know, 30,000 people, they might not know me or they have like, like you said, 3000, come back to me, you know, when there's another zero,[00:51:57] Nathan:Right. Well, and then the other thing that's going to be true is if I'm bringing you to, to my audience to share and teach something, if you're using this strategy, like go do another 20 of these or 50 of these, and your pitch will be better. And the way that you teach finance to travel bloggers or whatever else it is, is going to get so much better.[00:52:17] Matthew:Yeah,[00:52:18] Nathan:It's like, I kind of don't want to be your Guinea pig. You know, I don't want my audience to be your Guinea[00:52:23] Matthew:Yeah,[00:52:24] Nathan:Pig for your content. And so just get more experienced and come back.[00:52:28] Matthew:Yeah. And you know, you also gotta think about, you know, people are so time-starved right. You know, when I started blogging, I could. There was no Instagram. There was no Snapchat. There was no Tech-Talk, you know, Twitter was barely a thing. So I didn't have to split my focus on so many different platforms and channels.Right. I can just, alright, I can be on this one blog, but now when people are like, whoa, sorry, I have to like manage all these different social channels and all of these comments in the blog and everything. They not don't have like an hour to give, you know, to just anybody way do you could have before,[00:53:12] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Okay. So on the email side, specifically, if someone came to you with say 1,000 newsletter subscribers today, and they're like, I want to grow, I mean, you're looking to grow to 5,000. This might be so far removed from where you're at that you're like, I don't even know if that was, you know, a decade ago that I was in that position, but what are you seeing that's working?Where would you point them?[00:53:33] Matthew:What works for us right now? one having email forms everywhere on your site, sidebar, footer, we have one below the content below the content forms, and popups, popups, the work they're really great. we find for really long posts, having a form in the middle of the post converts better than, at the end of the post, because know a A lot of people don't read to the end, but when they get to in the middle you're still there.You know, if you look at heat maps are really long websites, right? You just see that drop-off right. So if all your forms are at the bottom of the page, they're just not getting the visibility, that you need. so middle of the page,[00:54:19] Nathan:Do you play with a lot of different incentives of like, you know, Opt-in for this fee guide, you know, or are you customizing it to something for a particular country or there, the content that they're reading[00:54:30] Matthew:Yeah, so we use OptinMonster for that. and so we have, like, if If you go to our pages that are tagged Europe, you get a whole different set of options. than if you go to Australia, like, and like the incentives are like, you know, best hostels in Europe, you know, best hostels in Australia, right? Like little checklist guides.And I tweak what the copy for that, you know, just to see what wording, will lift up a better conversion rate. But yeah, we definitely, because, you know, we cover so many geographic areas. The needs of someone going to Europe are a little different than somebody going to New Zealand. So we, we definitely customize that kind of messaging. And I think that helps a lot, you know, and definitely customizing messaging as much as possible. Um know, but in terms of just, you know, we can talk about, you know, the market, like how do you word things, but middle pop-ups and mil of blog posts definitely converts the best. And so like that's where we see a lot of growth, as well as, just on Instagram telling people to sign up for my newsletter or Twitter or Facebook, but don't let the algorithm, you know, keep you from your travel tips, sign up now and people do.[00:55:58] Nathan:Okay. And is that like swipe up on stories that you're doing[00:56:02] Matthew:Yeah.[00:56:03] Nathan:You know, on an Instagram live or all the above?[00:56:06] Matthew:All the above.[00:56:07] Nathan:Yeah.[00:56:07] Matthew:You just constantly reminding people to sign up for the list, you know, and. One of the failings of so many important for influencers today is, you know,They always regret everyone as everyone does. They always regret not starting to list, you know? And so, you know, you just got to hammer into people, sign up for the list, sign up for the list, sign up for the list.Yeah. And a lot of the copy is, do you see all my updates? No. Would you like to sign up for this newsletter?[00:56:39] Nathan:Yeah, because everyone knows. I mean, I come across people all the time. It's like, I used to follow them on Instagram. I haven't seen, oh no, I do still follow them on Instagram. Instagram just decided that I apparently didn't engage with their content enough or something.[00:56:53] Matthew:Yeah,[00:56:54] Nathan:So now I no longer see their posts,[00:56:56] Matthew:Yeah. You like, I go, I always go to my like 50 least interacted profiles. Right. And, you know, there are some people that aren't there. I interact with this guy all the time. How is this the least attractive? But that that's Instagram and saying, here are the people we don't show you in your feet.[00:57:13] Nathan:W where do you see that? Is that[00:57:16] Matthew:If you go to your, who you're following, it's it should be up on the top.[00:57:20] Nathan:Hmm. All right. I'll have to look at that.[00:57:22] Matthew:Yeah. I'll send you a screenshot. and so like, that's the algorithm be like, here are the people who you interact with the least, but it's like, no, I, I love their stuff. why why do it take them from me? So,[00:57:36] Nathan:Zuckerberg is like, do you really love their stuff? I just not feeling it.[00:57:40] Matthew:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, it's just, you know, the algorithms are terrible and what I hate and I learned this last year, and this was sort of a unsurprising, but surprising thing is that stories, which used to be like the latest first.[00:57:59] Nathan:Yeah.[00:57:59] Matthew:That is, they have an algorithm for that now, too. And I was like, I, I shouldn't be surprised, but I am surprised.And I'm annoyed by that because like, I liked it when it was just the newest first, but Nope, now that is based on, you know, sort of like Tik TOK thing of like, oh, this story is getting really a lot of interactions. We'll bring it up the front of people's queue or, you know, so it's not just like your first, because you had one, one second ago, you know, like it could, it's based on an algorithm[00:58:35] Nathan:Yeah.And that's how it's all going to go. Facebook did that a lot, you know, with Facebook fan pages back in the day where it used to be fantastic for engagement. And then they were like, yeah, it's fantastic. If you pay us[00:58:46] Matthew:Yeah. And even then it's like, I would pay to boost posts. I was like, great. You saw, I lectured five people. What? I just gave you a hundred bucks and that was. And there was some guy you remember him commenting last year. He was like, whatever happened to this page? I was like, I'm still here. He's like, no, no, no, no.And this isn't a common thread in Facebook. He's like your pages to get a lot more engagement. What happened? I was like, oh, Facebook algorithm. I was like, people just don't see it. Let me tell you where all my analytics side it's like this page. So I have 2000 people. You're like great. 1%, woo[00:59:23] Nathan:Do you do paid advertising? I'd like to get email subscribers.[00:59:28] Matthew:We used to, but, the CPMs went up so much that it wasn't worth the effort. You know, like paying a dollar 52 bucks for an email subscriber, is just a lot of money for, for, for things. We don't mind ties directly. Like we're not taking people through finals buy a course, right? Like just to get rot email, I'm not paying two bucks for.Yeah. And, and so I just, we stopped paying, like during the pandemic, like, June, June of last year, we were like, oh, we're going to take a break. And then we paid somebody to help us for it to make kind of reset it up. But I just had to spend down so much. I was like, you know what, I'm going to turn off for a bit.And yeah, that's been like,[01:00:17] Nathan:Didn't really miss it.[01:00:18] Matthew:Yeah, I looked at the numbers recently cause I was thinking, should we do it? And it's not that big of a difference of just doing it organically on like Instagram stories or just on the page. Right. And I also don't really like giving money to the Zuckerberg empire of VO. I just not a fan of that business.And so like, I know my ad spend is low, but I can't say just. On a rod number. Like it wasn't that big of a deal. Like, you know, like, cause the CPMs were so high, we were having to pay a lot of money. So like we put in like two grand a month and we weren't getting thousands. We getting hundreds of people, you know, I want four for two grand.I want thousands of people.[01:01:06] Nathan:Yeah. For my local newsletter, we're doing paid advertising on Facebook and Instagram and averaging about $2 per subscriber. And that I think now that's considered pretty good. You'd like a lot of, with a broader audience, you'd be at $3 or more per subscriber and it gets expensive pretty fast.[01:01:23] Matthew:Yeah. I mean, but I think at some point you'll just see such diminishing returns that, you know, I mean, how many people are in Boise, can you hit, you know, over and over again?Right.[01:01:35] Nathan:Yep.[01:01:36] Matthew:I, I was just reading Seth Godin's book. This is Marketing. And he said, you know, they talked about ads.You turned off ads when the Content says turn ‘em off. And my Content, I was like, you know, they're not really paying for themselves.[01:01:50] Nathan:Yeah. Let's see. Yeah. You turn that off. Looking forward, maybe like two or three years is that I think your business has fascinating of the approach that you have of taking an online audience, building a real team around it, and then building it into the in-person community. what do you think the business is going to look like in two, three years?Where, where is revenue coming from? What's your vision for the events and meetups and what are the things that like over that time period, they get really excited.[01:02:19] Matthew:Yeah. Two, three years. So we're talking, you know, 20 by 20, 23, most of our revenue coming from stuff in person, you know, having chapters around the world, people pay to go to them. So, you know, it it's like 10 bucks and you can bring your friends for free, right. So it's like five bucks versus. Just for the cost of like hosting events.Right. doing lots of that, doing tours, we're bringing back. and they won't be just with me cause they're community events. Right. So we'll have guides, right. So it's not just, you're coming to travel with me, sort of what Rick, Steve does. Right. You go on and Rick Steves tour, it's his itinerary, but he's not on the tour.Right. He shows up to a couple of them throughout the season when it's not like you don't expect him to be your guide at the time. So moving to that, having a consumer event for like, like a, like a world domination summit, you know, a weekend somewhere just for travel consumers, having an app for both having an app for that company. then online just being a lot of and affiliates and you know, even me. Just even taking away just having this like passive income course, just because, you know, one less thing to worry about. Right.And then travel con, so being around, but actually making money this time.[01:03:47] Nathan:Do you think travel con is going to turn into, I mean, obviously it's a significant amount of revenue, but the expenses are so high. Do you think it will turn into a profitable business[01:03:56] Matthew:Oh yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, a lot of the unprofitability is just comes from the fact that I had no idea where that was doing.[01:04:02] Nathan:Yeah, I know that firsthand from my own conference, so yeah.[01:04:07] Matthew:It was, I didn't realize how quickly expenses gets that. Right. You know, being like, oh, okay. Like my food and beverage budget is 120,000 writing that in there. And then getting $145,000 bill because, oh yeah, it's 120,000 food, but then there's tax fees, which we, you know, all this stuff and like, Okay, well, that's $25,000 off the profit.Right. and so with a better handle of expenses, like we were definitely like this year, we were gonna like reg even, you know, at the very minimum, we'll pre COVID and this year we'll also break break event. Um it's and just keeping a handle on, you know, like, well, how will I don't invite a hundred speakers, you know?And, and be like, oh, I had planned to only budget, you know, 50,000 speaker fees, but now I'm at 80. Okay. Like, handling the cost better. We're good. Now I have a professional events team that kind of slaps me around and it's like, can't spend that money.[01:05:06] Nathan:I know how it is, where I'm like, Hey, what if, and then just like, now[01:05:10] Matthew:Yeah,[01:05:10] Nathan:Love it, but no,[01:05:12] Matthew:Yeah,[01:05:12] Nathan:Don't like, you don't have the budget for it.[01:05:15] Matthew:Yeah. But no, I mean, you know, we used to have a party. And we're getting rid of the second night party because people don't want to go. Like we didn't have a lot of people show up cause like they're out and about on town. So it's like, wow, I just spent, you know, $40,000 for like a third of the conference to come, you know, why not take that money and use it to something that's more valuable for everybody that has more like impact for dollar spent and still not like go over budget.You know, same thing with lunches. We got, we were getting rid of, we're doing one lunch now.You know, cause people don't really care that much, you know, about in[01:06:01] Nathan:Yeah, it's super interesting.Well, I love the vision of where the conference is going, and particularly just the way that the whole community interplays. I think it's been fun watching you figure out what you want your business model to be, because obviously, with a large audience, your business model can be any one of a hundred different variations.I like that you keep iterating on it, and figuring out the community.[01:06:26] Matthew:Yeah, we're definitely going

Adam and Dr. Drew open the show with a topic from the very end of the last show, the newfound ability of Twitter being able to silence a fake news shit storm that starts on TV. They then turn to the phones and speak with a caller who wants their thoughts on the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse and what they see as the likely outcome of that trial. They also speak to a caller with a question about the J&J vaccine and if a booster is warranted at the moment. Next Drew recounts his trip to New Orleans where he hung out with Joe Rogan, Jeff Ross, Dave Chappelle and many more. Drew reveals that he has been invited on The Joe Rogan Experience and gives some insights on his interactions with Dave Chappelle. Please Support Our Sponsors: CandidCO.com/ADS enter ADS JoinFightCamp.com/ADS Lifelock.com, promo code ADAM For PaintYourLife text ADS to 64-000

Chad Carson is an Entrepreneur, Writer, and Teacher, who Co Owns over 100 Units of Rental Property and Private Lending In and Around the College Town of Clemson, South Carolina. He wrote an Amazon Bestselling book “Retire Early With Real Estate”, and his story has been featured on Forbes, Yahoo Finance and more. Chad, His Wife, and Two Kids Recently Returned from 17 months Living Abroad in Cuenca, Ecuador. Each Week Chad Shares Tips, Strategies and Stories on His Popular Blog Podcast on Youtube Chanel CoachCarson.com In this episode we talked about:  • Chad's Bio & Background  • Flipping Houses  • Ups and Downs of Students Rental Space  • De-Risking Real Estate Deals  • Valuation Metrics of Single-Family Rentals VS Student Rentals  • Raising Capital in College Towns  • Chad's Plan for Tomorrow  • House Hacking  • The process of Writing the“Retire Early With Real Estate” Book  • Chad's Thoughts and Views on Interest Rates and Inflation  • Unlevered Yield  • Coaching and Blogging on Youtube Channel  • Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned   Useful links: https://www.coachcarson.com https://www.instagram.com/coachcarson1/ Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jesper gala and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. My guest today is Chad Carson, AKA coach Carson.   Chad Carson is the author of the bigger pockets book retire early with real estate. And he is an entrepreneur writer and teach and teacher who cones over a hundred units of rental property in Clemson, South Carolina, Chad used real estate investing to reach financial independence before the age of 37. When he, his wife and two kids decided to spend 17 months living in Ecuador in south America each week. Chad shares tips, strategies and stories on his popular blog podcast and YouTube channel coach Carson, coach Carson. How's it going?   It's great,   Chad (1m 2s): Jesse. Good to see you. Good to see you again. And we were on a panel not too long ago, so nice to connect.   Jesse (1m 7s): Yeah, absolutely. Yes. We were in new Orleans on the a at BP con, which was a lot of fun. I've talked about it on the show. It was nice to get out there since the last one in Nashville, which I guess was two years before that. Right?   Chad (1m 20s): Exactly. Yeah. It's like the rockstars of real estate. You get to hang out with people and talk about the market. Talk about all deal making. It's a lot of fun.   Jesse (1m 30s): Yeah, absolutely. And you know what I did forget to mention you are also a, a alumni of Clemson football. So go tigers.   Chad (1m 38s): Yeah, exactly. We're not doing so hot this year, but for the, any of the college football fans, Clemson's usually up there, but this year we're a little, a little soft.   Jesse (1m 46s): And if I remember correctly, you're you played linebacker back in the day there   Chad (1m 50s): I did. Yeah, that was my that's how I paid for my school. So luckily I didn't have it as far as I know, no permanent damage, you know, concussions, things like that, but yeah, it was middle linebacker. I was about 40 pounds bigger and had a, had a lot of fun doing that at the, at that time   Jesse (2m 5s): Weight loss period that that happens after the, the college football day.   Chad (2m 9s): It either it either goes one or two directions. I lost, I lost my four day in that like all the little small guys now on the team are like enormous. So they found all the weight that I lost.   Jesse (2m 18s): Sorry, the secondary maybe gained some weight and then you get the lineman that, that cut it   Chad (2m 23s): Down. Yeah, exactly. Right   Jesse (2m 25s): On. Well, thanks again for coming on. I thought it would be great to have you on the show since that panel, that we were on a lot of the questions that we got seem to be still topical today, before we kind of dive into, you know, what's currently going on with real estate and what you're doing for listeners, maybe you can give a little bit of a background about how you got into real estate and what you've been up to since, since that's first started.   Chad (2m 49s): Sure. Yeah. So when I graduated from college, so at Clemson university, I thought I was going to go to play football and NFL, and that was a dream that quickly got shattered. And then I also was a biology major college. So I was considering going into medical school, kind of that direction. Also had some job offers in the financial world, you know, working like on wall street, that kind of thing. But I was really always really interested in the lifestyle of a real estate entrepreneur and particularly a small real estate entrepreneur who sort of controls your own destiny and works out of the house and keeps overhead small.   And so a business partner and I started flipping houses pretty soon after I graduated from college and we scraped by and figured out ways to come up with capital to buy primarily single family houses, fix them up, flip them. And then over time that worked out pretty well and we were able to make a living. And we, I think that was 2003 when we started by 2006 and seven, we also started buying some rental properties as well. And in particular, we got into the niche of college student rental properties eventually in Clemson, South Carolina.   So we're in a college town. So that just seemed to be the best fit for finding a good balance of cashflow and growth and good longterm stability and wealth building was with those kind of small multiunit properties, duplexes, fourplexes with a 12 Plex. We have some kind of aggregated land that we have with multiple apartment units on it as well. But that's where we are now. Today is a, we have 110 units. Most of those I'd say 60% are those college student rentals, but also have a mix of single family houses, mobile homes, things like that.   Jesse (4m 23s): Yeah, that makes sense. And in terms of the, the first ones that you got into, not, I guess dissimilar from a lot of people that get into our, our space coming at the kind of value add flipping, was that something that at that time you thought might be the direction that you'd go to, to do flipping or, or was it, you know, it's a little too hands-on and maybe passive or somewhat passive is the better, better.   Chad (4m 46s): Yeah, I mean, I looked at it as is, it's a great way to add value and that, particularly for me, I didn't have any capital upfront. So I just, I don't know where I heard it, but I just learned that if you can find a good deal and in any market, then the capital is out there. There's there's and I think that's more true today than, than ever that we are flooded with capital. I mean, there's people who are looking for deals, there's money, that's looking for deals, but if you're that small entrepreneur or big entrepreneur who can go out and find a lot of real opportunities that have either equity that you can add value to today, or you can find good longterm cashflow in long and growing, growing markets or markets are good opportunities.   I just found that skillset that I learned early on was so valuable for all sorts of things and it put food on the table to start off. But over time I found that acquiring equity that I could work one time, do all the work upfront and then have that paid dividends for a really long time. That was just very enticing to have that because it fit into the lifestyle goals that I had, not just, I love working, I love projects, but real estate to me, the power of it is how it starts in the beginning as a startup. You had put a lot of work in, but it becomes a relatively passive investment that gives you a lot of lifestyle freedom and the end.   Jesse (6m 0s): And at that time, I mean, getting into student rentals, was that the approach initially, or was it just that that's where you were finding   Chad (6m 8s): It was not my approach originally. It was mainly to single family houses and typical suburban kind of subdivisions is where we found a lot of our early deals. And I still like those single family house deals for what they are as well. But I actually did a house hack where I lived in one unit and rented out the other, my first introduction to college student rentals. And it was just where I wanted to live. It was near the college town. It was near just the place I wanted to be. And I found that I just, I think I started from that getting to know the, the tenants themselves.   So I live next door to a wonderful Chinese couple who are getting their PhD in some kind of health, health initiative, or I'm sorry, healthcare or biotech, I think it was. And then another, you know, had like an international flavor, had China and the other guy and his wife from South Africa and another one from another, you know, another country. And I just thought it really interesting, the people I was meeting and I thought they were really good tenants. And so it just that sort of just landing into my lap, having to find somewhere to live in a house act is a great way to pay for your living expenses.   But after that, I said, there's gotta be more opportunities to buy more properties like this. And so we started picking up after you every year from there.   Jesse (7m 21s): And in terms of the, the student rental angle, like I think we, we chatted a little bit in new Orleans that, that very similar, how I got started in real estate was, was in the student rental space. And, you know, you hear everything when you're investing in student rentals from, you know, it's, it's a complete nightmare. You're dealing with tenants, but maybe you can talk to listeners a bit about how that's a, it's pretty misleading. And, and if anything, it's, it's really, from a risk standpoint, I look at it at completely the other way around what most people will tell you.   Chad (7m 50s): Yeah. It's like real estate in general. Some people run away from it because they heard that there's going to be tenants and toilets and people having leaks. And that's going to be such a big deal. Well, the same with student rentals, they hear that people have, you know, big parties and through kegs through windows, which I'm sure happens somewhere. Right. And in fact, I've probably been at some of those parties when I was in college, but, but it's not, it's not the, the, you know, it doesn't have to be that way. So a lot of there are a lot of good students, students who are renting their place and to take responsibility and you also have the, the parents are often helping pay, pay their way.   That's just the reality of it. And so if you do that, you can, I, I have very little credit risk with my student rentals. We have almost always had payments on time. I can think of two situations. And now 18 years of investing a little bit less than that with student rentals, where I've had a credit issue on a student rental and the rest of the time, the rent's paid things. Thanks for taking care of. They have a security deposit. There are some damage issues here and there just like you would with any tenant. But I saw, I think the positive of student rentals as they be find the right university, the right town, the right place with the right dynamics, you're going to consistently get your rent.   That's great. And the negative, I would say the drawback of it is it's a more higher high turnover type business. So you do have that maintenance, you know, maintenance turnover, and your, I found my maintenance cost to be higher than maybe some people would anticipate early on just because you're having to paint. You're having to clean up. You're having to do these things pretty often. And, but the flip side of that again, is that we are leasing period starts for student rentals. And now December before they, before August of the next year.   Yeah. So here we are, actually, we're our property manager just talked to another day. They're starting right now, here we are beginning of November. So it gets earlier and earlier where know, at least in our market, students are trying to lock down their rentals pretty early. And so that's what we found is we can, pre-lease all of our, our rentals, very rarely do we have something that's vacant. Hmm. Okay. So we do have a vacancy period about 10 to 14 days when we're fixing up the property and doing the turnover. But that's like, there is no sitting there for, for one or two months waiting on finding a tenant there's pre-leasing, you know, turnover period.   And then it's leased for 12 months. Yeah.   Jesse (10m 8s): And I find in most markets, I'm not sure if, if for yourself, is that nine times out of 10, the occupancy is really only three quarters of the year. Some of them do, at least my experience has been, some of them do stay in the summer, but we typically see 12 month, 12 month leases paying rent for 12 months, but really occupancy either.   Chad (10m 27s): That's exactly right. Yeah. And it's a pretty strong landlord market for us in our markets, even, you know, so we've been able to always negotiate that we don't do nine months leases or have to do subleases, but they, most of the people are gone or the summer, or maybe come for a few weekends here and there, but that's, that's the case for us as well. I'm curious,   Jesse (10m 45s): Do you, de-risk further with having the least document several or in other words, if one person doesn't pay rent that the others have to come up with that rent, is that how you structure your,   Chad (10m 58s): We do structure ours that way. Yeah. There's, there's other big operations in town who have like least by the bedroom type arrangements. We've always chosen not to do that. And we had explained that early on with a couple of students who, Hey, my roommate is not paying the rent. That's not my deal. I said, well, actually it is your deal. That's your, you look at, look at this like a partnership, you know, this is a marriage without the, all the good stuff. Right. You know, you're, you're married to your, to your, your partners here. And so they would all have to pay the rent and figure it out among themselves.   And, and so, yes, it was very rarely happened, but that has been, that's come up. And so we, we do have that discussion with the lease with our private property managers to have that discussion. Now let them know that.   Jesse (11m 38s): Yeah. And it's great because you have a kind of a, I mean, you have a private, private solution or private market solution, but you also have kind of social norms that factor into that too, where, you know, one person, when they have four other friends living in a place where, you know, parents have the lease and somebody is not paying, you know, the pressure to make sure that you, you know, you're on time and you do things properly. It's probably like,   Chad (12m 1s): Yeah, they work it out. Yeah. There's the, yeah. You don't want to let down your roommates let down other people, so, or, or the handle it privately behind the scenes, you know, they, they work it out. Yeah.   Jesse (12m 10s): And on the other side of the other flip side of the fact that there's more turnover, I know in markets that have more rent control or more, more regulatory red tape, they actually liked those landlords. Like the fact that there's more turnover, because then you can actually reset rents without issue.   Chad (12m 29s): Yeah. That's been a big deal for the last six, seven years for it because the rents have gone up consistently every single year. And so rather than having to face that, how do I raise my rent on a good tenant kind of conversation, which is always tricky, right? You can now push it to market rent every single time. And the other benefit of that big lead time on your leasing period is that you can test out new rent levels without a whole lot of risk. And so if we push it too far and we can't find anybody, like we're getting zero leads at this new rent level, we can pull it back and say, okay, we're a little too aggressive here.   Let's pull it back to this. And I've always found with leasing, I don't do the leasing anymore, but I've, I've done tons of leasing over in the past. And it's a really good skill to have because you can see that you can see the sensitivity to price, to the marketing you're doing to whatever. And if you get the right price, market match, I mean, it's like a faucet. Like you turn on the faucet on the water and the leads start coming through. I've always found. And so I think it's good to have done that myself because when I'm having conversations with my people who are doing our leasing, I don't have a lot of excuses.   I might look, you know, it's either the property is not ready. It's either you're not promoting it well. Or the price is not right. It's one of those three, which one is it? And let's look, let's look at the metrics. Let's look at the numbers. How many leads are you getting? How many showings have you had? How many applications have you had? How many people are not renting is one of those, like we're having a problem. And one of those levels there   Jesse (13m 52s): And how has the last a year or two Chad, how has that impacted number one, your business, or, and as well, your, your outlook on, on the space that you're in and potentially maybe where, where you'd want to be?   Chad (14m 5s): Well, I mean, us personally, I was a little, I was scared during COVID, I'll be, I'll be, be honest about that. And the story, the story for me was where we, we are a big fish and a kind of a small pond or in a small town with a big university. We have a lot of our holdings in one place. And so as, as we've matured with our portfolio, looking to have some geographic diversification was always on our radar. And we've kind of been doing that both with, within real estate and also into equities and other things too. But it hit home with COVID because a lot of the COVID regulations, nobody really knew what was going to happen in March of 2020.   And when the university where we are at Clemson university decided to go all virtual. My first thought my concern was, well, why would anybody come back to school? Like if they're going to be, you know, going virtual, they can do that from their home, wherever they live. And so I'm, I'm thinking, okay, you know, how much cash I need to save? In case we have 12 months of like 30% occupancy or 50% occupancy, I'm started thinking about worst case scenarios. And we start figuring out how much is that going to cost us to do that and how much we have to lower our rents. So that, that didn't pan out.   It turns out most people came back and wanted to have their lease their, their, their apartments. Anyway, even though they were virtual, but it did imprint upon me, the fact that we have some vulnerability that we need just as a personal wealth building strategy, that diversification is really important. And that's, so this, this last year and a half or two COVID has been, that's been the message for us of de-risking our geographic exposure, but also just de-risking period. Like if we do have a situation like that, even if we're not geographically diversified, we we've made it to the place where we have enough, we have enough income, we have enough properties.   So de-leveraging paying off debt, doing some things that are not real sexy or not real recommended for people who are always growing, but actually doing the boring, paying off your debt. You know what happens if you have a great depression or your rents go down, I can deal with that. If you, even, if you had, if you had no debt and you read sweat crater by 50%, that would be painful. You'd have to tighten your belt, but you wouldn't lose your properties because you couldn't pay your debt. It would be a totally different situation.   Jesse (16m 13s): Yeah. And that's another thing we talked about on the panel. It's this idea, where's that balance of, of you don't want your, you know, to a certain extent, you don't want to have no debt because then, you know, your return on equity is not pretty, but at the same time, you don't want your loan to value or, or your debt to be so large that maybe you're cash flowing. But like you said, do you have a correction of 10% of the market, 15, 20, whatever it is. And then all of a sudden you are in negative territory.   Chad (16m 38s): Yeah. And I, I just, I look at people that are a lot smarter than me only look at Warren buffet and people who, who build their business to be resilient. He he's an insurance business. He has to be reinsurers all the big insurers out there. And so he has to be cognizant that he can't predict everything and I've got to save a lot of cash. There is some leverage in his portfolio, you know, he has float and I'm sure it's some kind of long-term debt, some of his holdings. But if you look at the total debt that a company like Berkshire, Hathaway, Hathaway, or other mature companies have, once they've achieved that maturity, they're not aggressively trying to like spring every single bit of return out of their portfolio.   They're more about not losing money, like not, not having habit. They want to survive for the next, for the long run. And I think there's a, there's some wisdom in that. I think we, we real estate investing is so debt heavy that we just assume that that's always the way things are done. And the people I know is just me personally, on the small level, who've really done well over the long run and who personally have a lot of peace of mind. And they're just not really worried about the ups and downs of the market are often the people with the most cash in the bank and the least debt. And so, I don't know, that's my, that's my personal correlation that I see out there.   Yeah.   Jesse (17m 47s): Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. It just gives you, it gives you that little bit of buffer in terms of, of risk in general. Now, when it comes to, when it comes to student rental properties specifically, we've heard my partners and I actually more demand in the last little while I've had schools in our area, reach out to me and, you know, asking, are your listings still available because we don't, we just don't have the supply or is your market similar? Is, are you seeing that there's a bit of a supply challenge for student rentals?   It's,   Chad (18m 19s): It's been yes. For the most part has been that same scenario. We've, we've had some ups and downs because we're, we're in a pretty small market. So we have 24,000 students who go to Clemson university. There are 17,000 residents or the population of the city of Clumpson. So the university, and then the city, the city of 17,000. And then we have a couple little small towns, somebody we're very, it's a unique situation. We're very, we don't have a lot of other renters other than our students and our faculty. So when every time there's, there's been some supply excesses, when you have 2000 new units come out online at one, one year luxury student apartments.   So sometimes your upper end, your upper rent type stuff, we have a few, you know, more closer to campus, higher rent stuff. Those get affected big time. Whenever the new stuff comes on on the market, it's like throwing a big rock in a pond, you know, and we're in a small pond as everything gets kind of shaken up. So we had some vacancy issues for on a couple of properties, but for the most part that kind of stabilizes and the, the D the overall driver of that is the student population has been increasing at the university consistently, probably two or 3% per year. And the supply doesn't always keep up with that perfectly.   You know, sometimes it goes above it. Sometimes it goes below it, but in general, I think if you're in a college town, that's the, that's the metric you need to pay attention to is student population, and then whatever other population of faculty and those kinds of things go with that. And then if you're in a larger college town than we are, which I think is healthier, actually, if you're in like a a hundred thousand person college town, or a bigger city, you also have other industries that are related to the university high-tech industries, things like that. And I think that's an interesting mix because then you can cater to the two different segments of the market.   Not only be, you know, renting to students, you can kind of have some cross, cross marketing to different populations out there.   Jesse (20m 5s): Yeah. We've seen that in, in most of the areas that we had seen residents, it's been more so like 170,000, 200,000 population wise, and then, you know, 30, 40,000 on the student side. So yeah, it's funny that they, you know, in Clemson, it's pretty much a, you know, you double the double, the population there when school's in exactly, in terms of the way you value on that student, on the student rental front, do you typically do what we do and that it's not a per door metric, it's usually a per bed metric.   And how do you look at valuation when it's, you know, single family versus student Rez?   Chad (20m 42s): Yeah. We look at it per bedroom as well. And there's a little bit of a, you know, kind of a gray area when you get into some of the lower price rentals where, you know, there there's some, a few that we rent to student grad students, or maybe also some regular local, just kind of people who just need a rental, but when you're in the pure student rental, yeah. We look at it, whether it's, you know, it's a four bedroom apartment that that's, you know, that's pretty clear, or sometimes we have two bedrooms and one, we, we, the two bedroom apartment, we're always looking at it like on the per bedroom basis. And we also value it that way.   So we, you know, we'll, we'll work it backwards to try to get almost always to some kind of rental yield number, you know, a cap rate rental yield, or trying to understand what if we paid, no, we had no debt on this property. You know, what is the yield on the, on that? And that's, that's the first level of valuation that we'll do. And I I've always liked it speaking back of debt. Again, you know, you have a cost of capital, you have a cost of debt, both either your debt costs or an equity cost, if you're splitting the deal with other people. But to me, the main metric that you have is that, that rental yield like an unleveraged rental yield, because that's what you're using to distribute to the debt and to your partners and everybody else.   And so I just, I've always kind of used that as my, my true north. Not because that's the only way we're going to make money, but because that's what gets me through the ups and downs, that's what got us through 2000 7, 8, 9, because we were able to pay our bills and have some, have some cushion there. And so that's, we start with that. And that, that metric has not been as attractive the last couple of years, as it was earlier, you know, as interest rates have gone down rental yield, unleveraged, rental yields have gone down as well as the prices have gone up. So people are just willing to buy properties with lower rental yields, but that's also made it more important to find deals, to have more kind of hidden value add or hidden upsides.   So I found that really knowing my market street by street, knowing what the things that are most important to my students are, for example, being close to public transportation, being on the bus line, also walkability. And bikeability, I think that's, that's my biggest personal metric. Like when I live somewhere, I want to be close to bike trails and walking, and, and I, I feel like that is a generational thing where people go to college towns, they often have a walkability and bikeability, that's pretty good. Clemson's not so good. I've been trying to work on that on the side, trying to get that better, but I think they go there and then they go to other towns and like, Hey, I remember my college experience was so walkable and bikeable, they want to go find places as, as once they find their first apartments and houses that also have that.   And so I think that's a really important trend, you know, nationally with, with different, different markets that we're in. But I think that from a college town standpoint, if you can find the numbers are important and leveraged yield, but we're also trying to, if we're going to buy and hold for a long period of time, I want to find the places that are better than others in town, whether that's distance the campus along a bus line, along a bike lane, some kind of, you know, just a character in the market, big trees, nice, nice sidewalks, things like that that are harder to replicate when people build new construction.   But if you can buy that from an existing property that gives, that gives you some extra value.   Jesse (23m 48s): Yeah. I like the, the unleveraged yield approach, but, you know, it's kind of, here's, here's a net yield for a property and, and kind of getting, you know, taking out the debt first as an analysis, it makes a lot of sense in terms of the, the walkability I find interesting too is cause when you go to certain college towns, to your point of knowing the specific market is that some college towns, you know, their tolerance for, you know, a hundred more yards or 200 yards, it might be lower or higher than other universities. I know in our area, some universities, if it's, if it's a five minute more walk, all of a sudden, you know, that they rule that out or a specific property, they're like, no, we're not, we're not going on that side of the street.   Chad (24m 27s): All right. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta go block by block. Right. I mean, you just got to know that's where local market knowledge is so critical. Yeah,   Jesse (24m 33s): Absolutely. So in terms of, as you, as you kind of continued to, to get, you know, get more properties, you're now over a hundred units in terms of where you want to be next, when it comes to whether it's apartment building, student residence, what does that look like for you, Chad?   Chad (24m 50s): Yeah, we're sort of thinking of, you know, I'm not saying contrary contrarian, but my lifestyle has sort of dictated the way I'm going to build my business. And I have a healthy respect for like bigger businesses and people who build big, you know, big syndications, but that's, that's been like the opposite of what my business partner and I are trying to do. We sort of hit a level where we said, here's the fork in the road for us. We're either going to continue growing. And by other units, we could replicate what we've done here and doing it another college town or another city, and raise a lot of capital and do that. Or we could just say, all right, this is, this is as big as we want to get our business.   And we actually frame it as like a small and mighty business, like this, keep this thing deliberately small so that we can then have space to do other things. And for me, other things are teaching other people how to do it. And I have a podcast as well, traveling with my family, doing, you know, consulting here and there for other people doing a YouTube channel. So it's just, it's more of a personal choice. This isn't as much. So the personal choice has dictated that our real estate investing business is not going to get any bigger. And so going back to the de-risking conversation, that's another reason that we, we look at, you know, I looked at the cashflow, our business produces from the gross revenue.   And then after deducting all of our expenses, capital expense reserves, all of that. Here's how much income we needed. Here's how much we have and we're in. We're pretty good there. So the next step for us is do, is let's, let's make sure this foundation, this castle, that we've, we've built, can't be taken down and there's no guarantees in life, but some of the ways that could happen would be debt that's that's the main way I've seen people mess up their real estate careers in the past. So either stabilizing the debt, getting longer term debt, low interest rates, making sure that stabilize and making sure we have enough cash reserves.   And in some cases just paying the debt off, even with, even if that doesn't make sense from a growth standpoint, that's more of the ambition we're having of the next few years, what we might sell a property there that is not an ideal property. And in the past we would do a 10 31 exchange or something into another property. Some cases we're just paying the tax and paying, paying another set of debt off on that property. So that's, that's kind of where we are. That's our ambition. And then also just trying to help other people do the same thing on a kind of that small and mighty scale.   Jesse (27m 4s): I like that small mighty, but I mean, it makes sense too. It's, you know, when you're talking about it might not be as an attractive return, you know, if you're not doing a syndication or you don't have investors, it really is not as big of a deal. You're not, you don't have a fiduciary obligation to them. It sounds like up to now, you've, you've worked with partners or bootstrapped the, the financing side of it is that, is that pretty much how you've done it to date?   Chad (27m 27s): Yeah, we primarily have done private capital, but just very simple private capital. Like we had a, an professor of mine at Clemson when I first met him, one of our first deals, he would loan us the money. And I, he actually didn't realize that at the time I learned that you could do a self-directed retirement account where you, instead of just investing in stocks and bonds and things like that, there's these kind of boutique custodians who allow you to make loans to other people against real estate or buy a limited shares and syndications, for example. And so I showed him that he could do that and he was like, oh, that's interesting.   Well, what do you want me to do with it? And I said, well, how about you loan me money for this flip that I'm doing and I'll pay you 10% interest. And he said, that sounds good. Okay. And he said, you're going to do all the work. I said, yes, I'll do all the work is so it started off that way. And then we sort of branched out and eventually said, well, we don't want to flip it anymore. We just want to hold these properties. And so we can't pay 10% interest and make that work. So we started just paying 6% interest for most of our deals. And then we would extend the terms out, you know, instead of doing, you know, a one-year term, let's do a 15 year term and have it, have it go longer.   So that that's been a large majority of what we've done is private capital. Often through self-directed retirement accounts, we've done a lot of seller financing where a seller, instead of them selling their property and paying taxes on it, we'll offer to buy their property. And it's often landlords who are just trying to get out of the business and then we can get really attractive, low interest rates with them. And so it's been a mixture of that kind of capital with a little bit of commercial debt as well. And then, so, so when we, when it comes time to pay stuff off though, it's, it's just the person who has a bond, a debt, you know, instead of it, these are me and my business partner are the only equity partners.   We don't have any other, other people who are working with us on that side.   Jesse (29m 8s): No, that's great. You've, you've kind of found a, an in between, right. Between the larger syndication or asset specific capital raising and, and just doing it all on your own in terms of the, so the structure that you have now, you've, you've purchased these properties over the years, and you're now doing coaching and teaching. When it comes to retire early with real estate, the book that you worked with with bigger pockets, how did that come about? And in terms of, you know, putting that out there and, and how long ago was that, that, that the book came out?   Chad (29m 39s): Yeah, it coincided with my family. I were in Ecuador. You mentioned that at the very beginning, we decided to take this sabbatical trip and it was sort of just, it was representative for us that, all right, we're, we're, we've hit a plateau, we've got enough income coming in. There's still work to be done, but we're ethic, we're at a good place. And so we traveled and then our daughters were three and five years old and my wife teaches Spanish. I like, we like foreign languages. So they learned Spanish and enrolled in schools locally. And we just enjoyed living. There, just went to Cuenca Ecuador at the same time though, you know, always thinking of what's next. And I had been writing a blog for bigger pockets or writing on their blog and had my own blog going on.   And, and just, I think I was talking to Brandon Turner. It was some conference and he said, oh, you got to write a book, Chad, just pitch this pitch, the book idea at a bigger pockets. And so that was, you know, a year or two before we went on that sabbatical. But I, I decided to write the book while we were at Ecuador so that everybody else would go to bed, you know, eight, eight or nine o'clock. They put the kids to bed and then I'd write for like an hour or two. And for me, it was just, it was putting into a framework what we had done in our business. So from, I used the metaphor saying, you start at the bottom of a mountain, you're looking up at the top of the mountain.   The top of the mountain is this idea of financial independence. When you have enough wealth to pay all of your personal expenses, whether that's rental income in our case, or if you own stocks or something else. And so I tried to give people several different routes up that mountain, that how do you do that? How do you do your first deal and get that first capital when you don't have a lot of capital or have a lot of knowledge often through house hacking often through, you know, maybe move into a house and then, you know, move out of the house and keep it as a rental or, you know, doing some burrow strategy type deals when you don't have a lot of capital.   And then, but then, you know, moving up the mountain, some of the conversations we've had here, like how do you get to a place where you feel more confident that you can actually live off of your income and actually have a, have time, have free time to do things. So I talked about some of those strategies and having backup plans to your backup plans, you don't have side hustles and things that would make them make you some extra revenue. So it was sort of a, it was a blueprint type book, but then it was also, I interviewed, I think it was 700. I did a survey of 700 people who were aspiring for financial independence or had already achieved it.   And then I profiled 25 of them who are at different levels of their real estate journey. And just talk to ask practical questions, like how many properties do you have? How much income do you need to retire? And so it's all these kinds of financial independence, retirement oriented questions. And I told their stories kind of in between the chapters of the blueprint that I've put together in the book.   Jesse (32m 6s): And how long ago was that, that that book   Chad (32m 8s): Came out 2018 was when it was published.   Jesse (32m 10s): So definitely, definitely still topical in terms of the, the process. I'm always curious, you said your you're writing it when you were away. I imagine it was a lot of work. How was the tactical process of writing the book?   Chad (32m 25s): Yeah, I started with a big outline and, you know, as, as a blogger and you're a podcaster, I think we have content that we put out there where, where idea, we're always putting ideas together. So I had a lot of ideas in mind, but it's a pretty grueling in terms of yeah, just researching and get it. You know, I wrote probably 120,000 words for a book that ended up being 65,000 words, you know? So you cut like half of it out and had friends read it and say, yeah, that sucks. You don't want to do that. You know? And it says the brutal process is not, I mean, writing on a computer is one thing, but just the, the reflective process of putting your ideas out into the world and having them, you know, critiqued, thirdly, stomped on and beat up.   You know, I think my linebacker training was probably the best training I could have had for that, just because I had football coaches who would just scream at you and yell at you. And, and so the end, the end result though, you hope is, you know, it could always be better, but that the end result of that is very satisfying when you get it out there. And the good thing about publishing with bigger pockets, who I know you're you're involved with as well, is that they have a platform. They have people who are interested in the book. So the marketing, the marketing side of things is not my strength. And so I like the writing. I like the teaching. I like sharing, but marketing yourself and putting yourself out there as a whole nother strategy than writing the book.   And that was fortunate that that BiggerPockets could help me on that side.   Jesse (33m 49s): I'm always curious when we have individuals that have written books and what their style was, was it actually pen to paper every day? Was it, you know, modifying transcripts of, like you said, content that they already have, and, you know, I guess everybody's a little different in terms of what their strengths are.   Chad (34m 5s): Yeah. I was just, you know, I had the outline, I had, I had content out there, but it was just every day. I think I read this from Stephen King or somebody like that. I just said, you just got to make a goal, even if it's, even if it's not good that day, just like write 700 words or a thousand words or whatever it is, and just get it out on the, on the computer. And I did type it up. I think I used the Google doc and just had that going for a long time. Now I am pen to paper type person too. Like I love doing my mapping and I'll, if I have ideas for the chapter, I'll sorta mind map that out and draw it out, you know, on a, on a non-digital non-connected type a world.   Cause I had to think clearer, they're usually in the morning or late at night, but that's where the best thinking goes on. But then when you, you gotta just had that, that deep work time of, you know, two to three hours at a time of just knock it out, type something, get it on the paper and this chick away at it, you know, a little bit by little bit by little bit.   Jesse (34m 58s): Yeah, absolutely. Well, I thought we changed gears a little here in terms of where we're at in the market right now. We talked again about this when we were on our panel, you have a particularly particular view of, of where you think the market is right now when it comes to very topical inflation and interest rates. I know, you know, nobody's got a crystal ball here, but how are you preparing for the next year or two for the short term, you know, aside from what you've said about de-risking, but your thoughts on that and, and I guess generally your view on where interest rates are at and where you feel inflation may or may not be.   Chad (35m 33s): Yeah. I mean, if I had to vote or bet on something, which I'm not a great bet betting person, but I would, I would bet inflation's going to be continue to be more of the topic for awhile and at least for a couple of years. So I'm, you know, I, there's not a lot of preparation for me on that side of things, because a lot of our portfolio already, we have some debt still. We have assets that we feel are in really good locations that have long-term potential. So I just, I, I feel like we're in an, all of you who are listening to this, if you're one of the reasons you should be investing in real estate, is it, this is one of the best assets for an inflationary period.   And the other message that I think is so important, but if you're in, if you're in the growth phase for what, wherever you are, whether you're just early in your career as an individual investor, or if you're in the syndication world, the best formula I've ever heard of an investing for inflation is that you buy these assets that go up in value over time because they're good, well located. And you buy a property that has an unleveraged deal of let's say six or 7%. And then you borrow money at 3%. And your cost of capital is three. If you have a margin of three to 4% between what you can produce an income and what it costs you to borrow money, and then that property's going to get better and better over time.   I think that is such an incredible basic formula to build wealth because you are lucky, especially if you can lock that interest rate in for a long period of time. Now that you're, it's only getting better over time. And that's, I kind of keep that in mind in terms of just, it's almost like football, you know, this has simple, simple plays that work well on any market. And that's a simple play borrow for a lower cost than what your property produces by in a good location that has some dynamics of supply demand that are in your favor over the long run, and then just be a buy and hold investor and wait, just be patient you don't, if you get the more you can be flexible on when you exit, then you can be more optimal about, you know, knowing that it's going to happen at some point, but we don't know if it's gonna be three years or five years or 20 years, but we're going to be, be patient enough to get there   Jesse (37m 28s): In terms of unleveraged year, a yield. Just, just so listeners are clear when you talk about unleveraged yield, we're talking about the cap rate for the property, or are you factoring in debt with that yield? Yes,   Chad (37m 39s): But like a cap rate. And I guess I use leverage yield instead of cap rate, because I used to always use cap rate online on my YouTube videos and a couple of like nitpicky people are pointing out that well, that's not exactly what a cap rate is. You know, use a cap rate to value a property or what I'm S what I'm saying is, is an internal metric. This is just, let's just look at this and leverage yield. Let's take all of our expenses, our operating expenses, management, maintenance taxes, insurance, let's take capital expense reserves, whatever we need to make sure we've covered all of our outflows of cash what's leftover when that's all said and done, except for excluding your mortgage payment.   That's, that's what I'm saying. I actually like   Jesse (38m 14s): That term better unleveraged yield or operating yields, because it kind of gets away from this. What I've heard the term. I can't remember who's who coined it, but a suitcase words and cap rate is definitely a suitcase word. It means a million different things to different people. If you're the investor, the broker, the buyer, the seller, you know, and you just hit it right there, even with cap reserves, right? How do we, how do we factor those in some people do it differently? So that makes sense. I mean, you're looking at, from an interest rate perspective, from a risk standpoint, if we could do fix, we do fix, if we can make sure that that yield is higher than the interest rate, it's not rocket science.   You know, the question is finding those properties. Yeah.   Chad (38m 54s): Yeah. And that's, that's the, that's a whole nother thing, but it's, it's we started talking about the market, like, how does the market effect that this is a competitive market? So finding those deals is certainly challenging, but I know when I first started investing in 2004, three and four, we're just not that long ago. Right. It was the interest rates were higher, even then I thought interest rates were low, but you knew there were five or 6%. Now they're three or 3%. I mean, that's, that's incredible. So yes, it is more competitive. Yes. The yields have gone down, but with the right properties and the right markets, that's where we, as operators can really set ourselves apart.   We can find those value, add opportunities. We can find those little pockets of opportunity within our market, in my market. For example, Clemson is my, my main little town, but I think some of the better opportunities, and these are these little small towns, right next, next to the Clemson central and Pendleton and Seneca. Nobody's gonna know what those mean if they're not in my market, but if you're, I think that's my challenge to everybody is try to find ways in this market to do the opposite or go the different direction from what other people are doing. How does it, when the competition's digs, how can you zag?   How can you do something different? And that often is with locations, which is finding those little pocket locations. Sometimes it's with different asset classes. Like I do residential multiunit, but you know, maybe mobile homes are the thing in my area, or maybe there's a self storage, or, I mean, I'm not saying that you should just jumped ship on your, your strategy, but being open to different competitive advantages, I think is what we're all having to do right now.   Jesse (40m 24s): Yeah, for sure. Well, we have final four questions that we ask everybody that comes on the show, but before we, before we get there, I'd love to chat a little bit about what you do on the YouTube channel and how you kinda got into that side of, of really just coaching and, you know, hence coach Carson. But yeah. How did that come about?   Chad (40m 45s): Well, it started as a, as a written thing. So I was a blogger and I actually, well before, even before that, I did coaching locally. So I actually don't do a lot of coaching. Now. It's more like coaching through the YouTube videos, through podcasts, through, through a course online course that I teach, but it would really wish it's starting one-on-one with people locally in my market. And they're saying, Hey, how do I find a deal chat? How do I analyze a deal? And so I would just do it, you know, at a local real estate meetup and show them on the back of a napkin or a back of an envelope. Here's how you do it. Here's what I'm doing. And it was just that, that love of teaching, I guess, that kind of made it so that I was like, I just want to share this more publicly.   And I met the bigger packets guys, Josh and Brandon started writing for them, start writing my own blog. And I wrote so many articles that nobody looked at it. It was just like, I'm really glad they did because they were not that good at the time. But I think whether you're YouTube or podcasts blogger, you just got to love the process of teaching and sharing and ideas in general. And so for me, it grew from that to a blog, which was great. I could write it on my own, turned into a book, the podcast game, just because the people who happen to be reading my blog all were asking me, Hey, I like listening to podcasts and I'd rather do that than read it all the time.   So I started doing that and then YouTube has been spend kind of a recent passion. I've had a YouTube channel for awhile, but I think it's a more challenging medium in some respects, because you have the video, you've got the, you have people's attention. Span is a lot shorter on YouTube. Unfortunately with the podcasts, you know, people are washing dishes or exercising or something. So you have their attention a little bit longer YouTube, but man, if you, if you're not doing something good, they're out, you know, there's skipping, let's get outta here. So I'm still a rookie in this respect. But a lot of my style there is kind of a tutorial driven.   I'm trying to use a little whiteboard and show, you know, they look over my shoulder. Here's how I would run the numbers. Here's an, here's what an unleveraged yield needs. Here's how you calculate cashflow or here's a story about a deal I did. This is my first rental property. And here were the numbers in the beginning. Here's how it changed over time. Here's my spreadsheet I use. So it gives me the ability, like a podcast is a good conversation media, but a YouTube is more of an instructional tutorial based. And I've really enjoyed that, that aspect of it as well.   Jesse (42m 53s): Yeah. And I find the thing with YouTube as well. It's the more challenging thing, at least for me, it's the consistency of putting episodes out. Like when you're you got a podcast, you know, you have a, you have a call with somebody today. You got to be there that other person's going to be there when it comes to YouTube to kind of self-start cause you can outsource a lot of things. It's very difficult to outsource your face in front of a camera.   Chad (43m 13s): Yeah. We haven't figured that one out yet, but that's also what makes it special. Like I think YouTube is so cool and that it's basically taking down the big media networks. Like it's, it, it is more popular. There's more views. And who are the people who are creating? Yes, there's some big names out there, but it's just like the Chad Carson who's check cars. They want to know what it is he have to do with anything. Nobody gave him permission to give content. And the only reason, the reason that we are doing that out there is that people are voting with their views. And that, that is, that's a cool concept. That to me is like, it's the, it's the epitome of the internet, but it's also on a large scale with YouTube that people are choosing to sit down in front of their TV or the computer or their phone and watch these no name creators who are producing good content and then they vote for it.   And then YouTube has an algorithm that shares that with other people because people are voting with their, with their watch time. And that's, that's pretty, that's pretty amazing.   Jesse (44m 4s): Yeah, absolutely. No, for sure. It's a, it's definitely a great medium, especially for on the instruction front. All right, Chad, we got four questions. We ask everybody that comes on the show. So if you're ready for those, I'll, I'll send them your way. All right. Let's do it. All right. What's something that, you know, now in your career could be business real estate that you wish you knew when you first started out.   Chad (44m 25s): Yeah. The numbers are not everything. When you analyze a rental property or any kind of property, I was so enamored with the numbers early on and you know, I'm a spreadsheet nerd. I'm sure a lot of real estate investors are that I would just get enamored with. Oh, look at this cap rate, look at this internal rate of return. Look at this cashflow potential. And I ignored the other half of that coin, which is the kind of qualitative metrics of that property of location, of desirability, of long-term potential, you know, opportunity to add value to the property.   And so I, I missed, I missed on some opportunities, but I also put too much weight into some properties that had, they were they had a good cashflow for a reason. They were in a bad location and the next door neighbor was dealing drugs. You know? So it's like, I, I learned the hard way early in my career about that, but I said, there's a more balanced approach now to saying, yes, I got to have metrics that make sense, but I also need to have those metrics are driven by real world human beings who choose to live in a place for a certain reason, let's start with a human being. And then let's just use the metrics that sort of control my emotional irrational impulses.   That's the, the, the, the metrics are just to kind of keep me in check.   Jesse (45m 35s): Yeah. That's a great answer. Couldn't agree more with that. All right. In terms of somebody that's getting into our industry, what would, what advice would you give them and just generally your view on, on mentorship.   Chad (45m 46s): I think you need to love the process. And I don't mean like, you know, this is real estate investing has been your passion for all your life, but I do mean that if, if you, if you're doing it, just because it seems lucrative or seems like it's a place to make a lot of money, like that's fine. Like making money is great. We all should make money, but you gotta have something that really draws you to this business. And for me, it was like running the numbers. It's really interesting to me that I sort of tapped into something that was, that I just enjoy doing. I enjoy the communication and the human side of things.   The negotiations are really fun for me. I almost feel like it's a puzzle piece that you get to put together. So, you know, I, I, I had a, I almost have a bad habit of just doing deals because I just loved the, the deal, you know, let's put the deal together, you know? And so that's, I think going back to a new person, who's getting into the business, find a piece of the business that you love, whether that's the remodeling side of things, the am analysis side of things, the negotiation side, or multiple, and to stick with that, like get really good at that. Find that kind of intersection of what you're passionate about, what you're good at and what a need in the marketplace is.   And if you just stick with that, it's focused on that. The rest I think will take care of itself. That's great.   Jesse (46m 56s): All right. Number three, aside from your book retire early with real estate, or what book recommendations are you constantly giving out again and again that you could share with listeners?   Chad (47m 7s): Yeah. This is a oldie classic book, seven habits of highly effective people. I just, I was fortunate enough to read that right after I was getting out of college. And it's one of those books that, you know, the first three habits are just personal habits, like being proactive, putting first things first, you're just learned about personal effectiveness and planning. The second three habits are all about interpersonal communications. So how to, you know, think win-win make sure that the person's winning and you're winning listen first, don't seek always like, get your first word in.   So there's just some core, like really good principles that I I've re-read that book like 10 times every time I reread it, I'm getting other little kind of layered benefits from it. So highly recommend that one.   Jesse (47m 49s): Yeah. I guess every time there's, there's more nuance that you get out of that book. All right. Last question. My softball first car make and model   Chad (47m 58s): First car make a bottle. This is a Toyota Camry, 1995 model cloth Gracie. And, you know, drove that to high school, drove that to college. It was actually, this is a funny story. When I started my real estate, this is, I still had that car and I put, I was trying to find deals and I put these noxious vinyl signs all over the side of my car saying like we buy houses and here's my phone number. And it was sort of a, it's sort of a turning point for me. I was embarrassed. I was like, God, this is horrible.   I've putting these all in my car, drove away one girlfriend who was like, ah, you're not, I really don't want to be around being around you. But then I was a kind of a filter for my next girlfriend who became my wife because she's like, oh, whatever, that's fine with me. But the cool thing about that for me, that that car was, I owned it free and clear. And then I put a sign on top of it that I made cost me 300 bucks to put the signs on there. And I ended up buying a property every year for like five years that made me, you know, minimum five, 10 grand per property off of this marketing that it, so this car was like a money machine did really well.   Jesse (49m 4s): I think that's the best answer to that question that we've had on the show. That's, that's pretty good. Awesome. In terms of where people can reach out to you aside from a quick Google search, where can they go, Chad?   Chad (49m 16s): Yeah, my, my home base online coach carson.com. That's where you can find my podcast. Although you can search for my podcast on any of the podcast players out there, apple, Spotify, those as well. And then of course on YouTube, if you search for me on YouTube, we'd love to hear from you. Please leave me a comment on YouTube or somewhere. Always like to hear your story and, and respond to that. And what would enjoy connecting it with you somewhere online?   Jesse (49m 38s): My guest today has been Chad coach Carson. Chad, thanks for being part of working capital.   Chad (49m 42s): Yeah. Thanks for having me, Jesse. This has been a lot of fun.   Jesse (49m 52s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Here it is: the pious childhood, the voices, the missions, the uncanny miraculous insights, the fearless warring, the taunting and threatening, the temper, the visions and prophesies, and the prodigious feats of the Maid of Orleans.   According to Twain, this was far and away the most amazing human being to ever live, and that is saying an awful lot.  Wherever she stands on the ladder of greatness, Joan was a force wholly new and utterly unique in nature. One for the Ages. This is her life.

Programa completo de la rosa de los vientos con Bruno Cardeñosa y Silvia Casasola. Entrevistamos a José Gregorio González, a Francisco Renedo y a David González, doctor en bioquímica y autor `La microfauna con la que vivimos´. En 'Ecos del Pasado' hablamos de experimentos parapsicológicos con Laura Falcó. En 'Mujeres con historia' comentamos la relación de las reinas  Luisa Isabel de Orleans y María Luisa de Parma con el sexo. También indagamos sobre cómo tener sueños lúcidos y hablamos con el capitán del buque oceanográfico Ángeles Alvariño, Antonio Álvarez que se jubila en diciembre. 

This week on the podcast Sean and Katie learn a neat factoid about Rasheed Wallace, discuss cowboy boots, and dig into a pair of teams with ominous early season vibes in the New Orleans Pelicans and Boston Celtics -- does history suggest they have any chance of turning things around after such sour starts? Then, in the Segment We're Trying Out This Week, your hosts comb through some stand out selections from the NBA's new round of City Edition jerseys, and try to determine what the designs of said uniforms might be telling us about the future fortunes of the teams wearing them. All that, plus the Posters of the Week! We have joined Patreon folks! Come join the family and receive ad free episodes, discord access, a special shoutout and even more goodness: https://www.patreon.com/uhhbasketball Follow @UhhBasketball on Twitter! Also while you are it make sure you follow our hosts @woodleysean & @wtevs. If you enjoyed today's show, please rate Uhh, Basketball 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts. See you next week for an all new episode!

Ashley Kehr Holds Degrees in Financing and Public Accounting and is a License Insurance Agent. She Purchased Her First Rental Property in 2014 and since then has Grown her Buy and Hold Portfolio Consisting of Residential Property, Commercial Property and Mobile Home Parks. Ashley is also the co-host of the BiggerPockets Real Estate Rookie Podcast with a Goal to help Newbies figure out the Actionable Steps Necessary to get their first deal. Currently, Ashley lives near Buffalo, NY on a Dairy Farm with her husband and three boys. She Spends most of her time Educating New Investors, Analyzing deals, Seeking the Next Adventure, and living a spontaneous life. In this episode we talked about: Ashley's Bio & Background Property Management The First Duplex Deal Investing in Mobile Home Parks A Pivot to Camp Grounds The Underwriting for Camp Grounds Regulatory Environment The Philosophy of the Trade-off between Potential Income and Value Real Estate Risks and Opportunities in the Next 2 years Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.instagram.com/wealthfromrentals/?hl=en Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jesper gala and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. My special guest today is Ashley Kerr. Ashley holds degrees in finance and public accounting and is a licensed insurance agent.   She purchased her first rental property in 2014 and has since grown her buy and hold portfolio consisting of residential property, commercial property and mobile home parks. Ashley is also the cohort cohost of the bigger pockets, real estate rookie podcast with a goal to help newbies in real estate, figure out the actual steps necessary to get their first deal. Currently. Ashley, we just talked about this. You live near Buffalo, New York on a dairy farm of all things with your husband and three boys. How are you doing   Ashley (1m 2s): Good. Thank you so much for having   Jesse (1m 3s): Me right on. So I guess just on that, on that point, you are in Buffalo, so we're probably just a two hour drive away from each other. The dairy farm is that that's a family run thing or?   Ashley (1m 15s): Yeah, so my husband's family, he's third generation. And basically when I moved out of my parents' house, I moved to here and lived down the pharmacist.   Jesse (1m 25s): I love it. We were just chatting before the show. I'm kind of on the heels of, of BP con in new Orleans. Ashley was, you were speaking on a panel, you mentioned before. It was a panel of, I guess, women in real estate. Is that correct?   Ashley (1m 40s): It was all about women that have succeeded in real estate and their advice to inspire other women to get started.   Jesse (1m 49s): Awesome. Great. Well, like they can attest to the fact that we had a great time out there. Didn't cross paths at this time, but maybe next year at next BB con.   Ashley (2m 0s): Yeah, definitely. I there's so many people there so many awesome people to me, it's hard to even get from point a to B because you just run into people. Maybe you met online or people you wanted to meet or just, you know, somebody that comes up to you that heard your story. Yeah.   Jesse (2m 15s): I couldn't agree more Ashley for our listeners that don't know you have a really great presence online, Instagram kind of showcases some of the stuff you're doing, but for those that don't don't know your background, could you give us a little bit of a background of, you know, how you started out, how you got into this world of real estate that we, that we all love?   Ashley (2m 36s): Yeah, of course I, so when I graduated college, I got married and I started working at a CPA firm and I was going to get licensed as a CPA and just work as an accountant. Well, I lasted about six months and I really hated it. So I ended up quitting my job and I was just going to be a stay at home mom. I was going to get pregnant, have babies and live on the farm. Well, about two weeks into my unemployment, my friend's dad approached me and he had a 40 unit apartment complex that he wanted me to run for him.   And so I agreed I could do it from home. It would be part-time. And basically from there, I grew a property management company for himself, for him and all of his properties. It ended up being about 80 residential and about 20 commercial properties that I was managing for him. So to start my first deal, I actually approached his son and said, look what your dad is doing. We should do this. And we bought our first duplex in 2014. And that was how I got started.   Just kind of watching somebody else learning from him and working for him. I gained a lot of experience and knowledge.   Jesse (3m 49s): That's incredible. And that was only, I mean, 2014, right? Not too long ago. Yeah. So in terms of basically saying here's a 40 unit apartment, what were the details, was that, was that something local that you could do or was it, you know, it wasn't across state lines.   Ashley (4m 6s): Yeah, it was right in the town, you know, 10 minutes from my house as in the town that I had gone to high school. And so I knew the town very well. It was very convenient to get to. And I started off with a small little office there that I could go to if need be. And actually just my first day was the first of the month. It was April 1st, 2013. And so all the rent checks are coming in and I was like so nervous that I wasn't going to track them properly. That all 40 checks that came in, I actually photocopied all of them before I actually deposited them.   And I spent pretty much, it took me, I think like full two full years to actually build out my systems and processes for property management. But it was definitely a learning experience. I ripped my hair out a lot. I cried and life is much better now not doing property management. I ended up outsourcing property management to a third party in February, 2020. So I gave up the property management on my properties and also with the same investor. So now I just do asset management for both of us.   Jesse (5m 11s): Was there a reason that a, that person had had come to you for managing that, that 40 unit? Or was it just happenstance?   Ashley (5m 21s): I actually grew up next door to him, his daughter and I were best friends growing up. And I actually went on vacation with their family when I had just quit my job just because I had nothing else to do. And I that's where they were talking about who needs help. And I think there was kind of this mindset. They had that because I was an accountant. I was capable of managing and running a building, which really wasn't true. I could do the bookkeeping for it. But as far as I had to spend a lot of time learning the rules, the regulations and stuff like that and how to make it actually run efficiently.   So, but that was really just it. The, it was more his wife and his kids like pushing him. You need somebody to help you. And so I ended up doing a lot of admin stuff for him too in personal assistant stuff. And then he brought me in an all these projects. I helped him build a 40,000 square foot dealership. I helped him purchase a dealership. I helped him start an insurance agency. So I'm so grateful for him, for him because he brought me in on so many opportunities that a lot of people don't have that I guess, advantage.   Jesse (6m 32s): Yeah, for sure. It's like the school of hard knocks for a few real estate. So property management is, is one of those professions where it's, it's a lot of hard work. It's a lot it's can be a very stressful job. And usually when you're doing a great job of it, nobody calls you and says, Hey, you're doing a great job. So usually you get the call when there's an issue. How did you, well, I guess first, when did you realize that that was something maybe you didn't want to do at least you personally doing for, for long-term and, and w was there a light bulb moment that, you know, you came across that you, you thought, Hey, let's, let's go buy real estate.   Like you're talking about.   Ashley (7m 8s): Yeah, actually the light bulb moment was when I helped him purchase the dealership. So I saw how he was purchasing a business and what he was doing was taking his properties that he owned and refinancing them, pulling the equity out. And he was able to make a cash offer on this business and purchase it. And I still remember sitting in the attorney's office at the closing table and he had had me set up the LLC. He had had me set up the bank account and I was the one signing that huge check that was given at the closing table.   And just the fact that he put that pen in my hand and had me write that check. I had never even seen a check that big of a month before I think really had an impact on me. And I saw like the power of the real estate that he had and how he used the equity to further advance his investments. So that was the biggest aha moment for me.   Jesse (8m 4s): Yeah. And you kind of got the, I mean, learning by osmosis by you actually doing it, but it's kind of like, I, at least I see it as there's that psychological barrier for a lot of people, as you know, with, with our industry, but you basically being the proxy, they're signing the check for him that I've, I probably broke down some psychological barriers about who can or can't buy real estate at that scale.   Ashley (8m 26s): Yeah, definitely. And even he had me do all of his financing. So anytime he went and got loans, I was in charge of that. I did all that. I worked with banks and that also helped me build a network of loan officers too, because I was super diligent about being timely in responding to loan officers, getting them what they wanted and working with them. And they liked that working relationship. And so when I started investing myself, I had a lot of loan officers that were very eager to work with me because they knew that I would provide to them what they needed to make the loan work.   Jesse (9m 2s): Yeah. Attention to detail and, and staying on top of them that didn't know traits that would explain or describe a CPA there. Yeah. So in terms of you, you pivoting to, or moving on to saying here's an opportunity that you think that you and this investor that you worked with that would purchase it, how did that property come along? What was that deal like?   Ashley (9m 24s): So I started talking to my, the investor son, just putting a little bug in his ear. Like, I think we should do this. And actually the first property that I found, I sent it to him. I said, I think this is the one we should buy. And we went and looked at it and we put an offer. It was accepted. And so he brought the money, he had savings that was going to be the cash offer on the property and how we structured. It was, we became 50 50. So I would do the property management, manage the remodel and do all the leasing.   And then he was the money guy. But also what we did was to make it less risky for him. He also received a monthly principal and interest payment every month. So he was making five and a half percent on his money. It was amortized over 15 years. And then he was getting 50% of the equity in the property and 50% of the cashflow and the property too. So it was a very, I guess, a good offer for him because it was less risky because he was tied into it so much in getting all this benefit from it.   And for me, it was just a way for me to get started, look like right now, I would never do that deal with anyone, but looking back like that got me started. And I I'm super grateful   Jesse (10m 43s): For that. And was that a, was that a local deal?   Ashley (10m 47s): Yeah, so it was in the same town where I was managing the, the apartment complexes and we stuck in that town for, I think our first three deals. And then for our fourth one, we ended up venturing into the city more and then starting to spread out.   Jesse (11m 2s): So in terms of you, you started in this, this duplex, you said for this first deal, and now, you know, just kind of touching on that. That's not a deal you would do now, but how has that growth to the second deal? Was it, was it zero to one or was it one to 10? Like how did, what was the type of deal that you did after that? Duplex,   Ashley (11m 21s): After the duplex was another duplex and it was actually on the same street, just a couple houses down and it went up for sale and my partner ended up putting a line of credit on his house and that's how we, we use that money to purchase the second one. And then we ended up doing a portfolio loan, putting a mortgage on both of them pulling the cash out of them. And that's how we purchased our third home right around the corner too. So we bought three just within a couple blocks of each other.   Jesse (11m 49s): Very cool. So in terms of over the, I guess now, well it's seven years, a little bit, almost eight over that process. You've, you've obviously ventured out to other areas in commercial real estate. Well, what was that process like? It was, there was this, it sounds like at the beginning, at least it was a gradual thing, but was there another, whether you call it a hot moment or was there a big leap in saying, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to try my hand at this, you know, this asset class or moving out into larger deals.   Ashley (12m 18s): Yeah. At first I was very focused on duplexes, small multifamily. The largest I bought in the beginning was a six unit. And then the smallest was a duplex. And I, I was really focused on that and I really became very confident and comfortable purchasing in my market on those properties. So a lot of people ask if I still consider myself a rookie, if I'm purchasing a small multifamily my market. No, I don't. I think I'm very experienced in that. Any other kind of investing? Yes, definitely in that.   So I, I stuck with that and then I ended up just having this opportunity to buy this mixed use commercial building and the investor that I worked for. He owned a liquor store and I saw the power of his liquor store and just the uniqueness of it. And it could be a cash cow and just kind of diversify your portfolio. And so I ended up buying my first commercial building, where I put the, the liquor store in that building. And that was my first kind of different strategy than I went after since then.   So that building finished in 2020, we opened up the liquor store in November, 2020, since then I have been like all over the place, especially hosting a podcast is so bad for my shiny object syndrome because I hear all these things that are like, I just want to do that. They're like sounds awesome. All these different things. So I spent a lot of time going after self storage, mobile home parks and campgrounds. And I recently went to four conferences back to back and I finally have realized that I'm going to focus on campgrounds.   I do have a mobile home park under contract, which I'm going to continue with that. It's a sweet deal. I did have a self storage under contract, but it fell through because the seller wouldn't do a phase two environmental study. Yeah. So the phase one recommended it and the owner said no. So I falling out of contract on that one. And then I'm working on getting a campground under contract now. But I think my big aha moment as to why I was focusing on campgrounds is I had a couple of people talk to me during the conference and really like point out to me what I'm struggling with.   And point out facts, such as look at all the successful investors I'm friends with. He said, look at your network. Are all of them going after like three big asset classes right now? And the answer was no, they're all focused on one. Maybe they started out focused on something like I started out focused multifamily, but then now I'm pivoting. I have that down. I have that strategy, you know, set it's running smoothly and now I can pivot on onto something else, but you don't see these experienced successful investors going after three or four large strategies at once and seeing what will work.   And then the second aha moment for me was I was telling somebody about this campground that I was offering on. And he was like, that's, that's it. And I was like, what are you talking about? I know I want to offer. And he's like, no, that's what you're excited about. He was like, you just spewed off so many different random facts and stats and all this stuff. When you've talked about self storage, your mobile home park, it's just like, oh yeah, I got a mobile home park under contract. Like you don't have that excitement. So that was a big aha moment for me too, was that I'm actually excited about investing in campus.   Jesse (15m 39s): So leading up to campgrounds, which I want to talk about because we, we don't, I don't think we've ever really gone into detail at all on the show, in terms of that process, that takes you from the first few investments to where you're doing these, you know, more commercial side of the business deals. How, how did that develop from the team point of view in terms of networking with other people or having other people influence the decisions you made for those future properties?   Ashley (16m 6s): Yeah. So up until this mobile home park that I have on our contract, I had never paid more than $152,000 on a property. And that was my sixth unit. Everything else had been below that. So my mobile home park is $750,000. That is a huge like jump for me. And that was like a huge mindset shift for me to get over that hurdle because I'd never even spent close to that amount of money or looked for that amount of money.   I've always done well with creative financing and finding money, but to find that much money was like, like nerve wracking. But I spent the last year and probably if you would have talked to me two months ago, I wouldn't even have realized this yet, but I spent the last year doing so much networking. There's a group of people. It next month will be our sixth time meeting up for various events or different things. And I think just talking with them, seeing what they're doing has really kind of helped me eliminate a lot of my limited mindset and knowing that I can achieve these things, I am capable of doing this.   And if I work hard enough, I'm going to find a way I'm not going to give up. And so that definitely helped just seeing what these other people are doing. I even had a James Dainer and he's an investor from Seattle and he runs a very successful company. He endangered, he actually let me come and job shadow him for three days. And I just got to like, see the inner workings of his mind. I got to sit in in all his meetings and that was so awesome. And it's such a cool opportunity. So if anyone is trying to, like, you feel stuck, reach out to people in your network and just go and watch what they're doing and see it.   And it's, it's definitely motivating. I get so pumped up after I surround myself with other investors.   Jesse (17m 59s): Yeah, for sure. And I mean it to the conferences or, you know, speaking with other like-minded individuals, even at, at BB con when we were in new Orleans, it is I think a relative thing where people, I hope that when listeners hear, you know, $20 million, $40 million deal it's, there is that aspect of like, it is relative. There was a, there was a point where, you know, somebody jumping from a million to $5 million or 100,000 to 500,000 or less is, you know, for that person, it's five times what they've done before 10 times, what they've done before.   But I feel like once you do that enough times, you get that aspect of, oh, wait a minute. It really is that the concepts are the same. The deals are bigger, right?   Ashley (18m 40s): 'cause, you're getting like the same ratio of compare, like your, your rental income to the purchase price. Like if that ratio is still the same, who cares if it's a hundred thousand dollars property or, you know, a $1 million property, I guess. Yeah.   Jesse (18m 55s): I find the way I conceptualize the moving from, you know, your first property or second property, not really, I guess more so when you move from certain size of properties, to me, there's a category of one you can continue to bootstrap and then another, you have to raise external capital. Right. And, and what that inflection point is, is going to be different on the individual, right. You know, if you're one or two individuals, there's a certain level where you cannot afford to purchase that property, unless you create a structure where you're raising capital.   And I'm curious for yourself that 700,000, you mentioned creative financing. Did you underwrite it from a pure debt point of view and put in your own capital, or was that something where you had to create a vehicle where you were raising capital?   Ashley (19m 41s): So I spent all my money on real estate. So I have no money. I actually did two offers to the seller. I did one where I'd go and just get a commercial loan to purchase the property. And then I did one at seller financing and I did the seller financing at his asking price. And I said, you know, I'm willing to negotiate on terms. And he told me, I knew $2,500 a month. So I took, and I amortized the loan over 25 years at three and a half percent.   And that came out to $2,500 a month. And so I got a nice interest rate, a long-term loan, and then he needed, he's actually, he lives on the property. So he's actually moving off the property and he's building a house. So he needed some money for that to build the house. So I am putting some money down on the property, but I actually sold a property. And that's, what's going to fund that down payment.   Jesse (20m 41s): There you go. So that's creative. It's funny, you mentioned that one deal that didn't go through because you had the phase two environmental where, you know, there are all these strategies that you can use where we have a property right now that we have contamination on it. And it's really a matter of, of remediation. And part of their creative strategy, most likely will be a purchaser that comes along where we have to do, you know, a short seller financing or VTB on it to get it, you know, get the environmental assessment. But again, like, it's really just a matter of thinking outside of the box. And I'm sure you, as an accountant, you're like, okay, 2,500, we'll figure out what numbers those need to be to make that payment happen.   Ashley (21m 17s): Yeah. As soon as he said that, I got like excited inside and I was like my smile and be like, okay, well, how about if we did it this?   Jesse (21m 27s): So if we were to pivot to the campgrounds, this is something that, I mean, I don't know a lot about, I know we had Brandon on talking more about, you know, mobile, mobile home parks seem to continue to be the trend. Obviously multifamily is on fire, but yeah, for, for a complete newbie campgrounds, how did you come across them? And, and why do you get so excited when you, when you, when you're talking about?   Ashley (21m 54s): So I actually came across this campground that was close to me for sale. It was actually on LoopNet. And I found that the day was listen, I got to be the first person to go and see it. And the older gentleman that owned it, he took me through the whole property, along with my broker. And just like, I could see so much value add and all these different revenue streams just popping out at me. And so that's what really got my interest. And like, my family had cam when we were younger, my parents still have an RV.   We have like family land that we turned into, like a private campground, I guess. But so I have some experience in that and I love the outdoors and camping, all these different things, but just walking through that property and seeing the potential, like just even Wade whacking, the property was going to add so much value. The basketball net had like rocks or something, like holding it down and I wasn't even faced the right way. And just like all these things just super easy improvements could increase the value of it.   The second thing that really enticed me about that property was that there, I think there was 164 sites and about 120 of those were seasonal. So people came in in the spring and this was in Buffalo. So campgrounds are closed in the winter, but they came in, in the spring, left their camper there, they paid a seasonal rate. And then they came and picked up in the fall. And that really limits the daily check-in checkout, which I kind of liked that model a lot more because I'd like to stay away from as much operation as possible. So I offered on that property.   Hannah was like my biggest offer after it was 1.4 million and they were asking 1.5 and they had me go through, I was getting bank financing on that. And they had me go through a bunch of hurdles, like sending them so much stock to make sure I was really a qualified buyer. And then they ended up getting an offer from a capital group out of Los Angeles that beat me out. They did offer 1.5 million and they ended up getting it, but it made like the Buffalo news and stuff that this campground was, they stopped taking stop doing showings because there was two competitive offers from a capital group in Los Angeles and local investor, which is me, but that was like, so he got the bug there.   And then I realized like after I lost that on it, like, wow, I was actually, I really enjoyed that. So I started looking a little bit more and reading about different revenue streams. I got a couple of people on the podcast, the real estate Wiki podcast too, who are investing in campgrounds and one that wanted to start investing, but had done a ton of research, had them on the podcast so I can learn some more. And so then from there I found another one and I'm currently trying to get one under contract now.   And I just did a, an episode on the bigger pockets, real estate podcast with David Green. And I mentioned on there that I'm looking for campgrounds and that was released yesterday and already today. I have so many people sending me deals. So anybody else   Jesse (25m 4s): I'm sure. Yeah. It's a, it's a great, you know, selfish or symbiotic. I don't know you want to call it, but where we can, we can have people, we can have guests on we're. I mean, the value, hopefully we're giving is we're, we're getting it in return from having the guest on. And obviously listeners just hearing a boat, like I would never have thought a campgrounds. Now I'm going to look into what's the, what's the Canadian market, like in campgrounds. Just curious. I'm curious though, from the, from the perspective of you come across this, this, this camp brown, you start seeing all the different revenue, potential revenue, streams, the underwriting for a campground obviously, or maybe not obviously, but from my perception, it seems like you're buying a bit more of an operational business.   It's not as much pure real estate, but when you're underwriting it, are you looking at it as a, you know, as somewhat similar to a cap rate, like you're looking at the yields annually, are you looking at which companies that you would need to employ to, to manage the thing? W what did that look like for you being, especially being an accountant where it seems like those types of things would be at the top of the list for you?   Ashley (26m 11s): Yeah. So actually what I did at first was I AIG Osborn had, he has an available a self storage deal analysis calculator. I actually took that. And I use that for that first property that I put an offer in. And I tailored that to like, okay, so he has, you know, the size of the storage units. How many of those units do they have? And then what's the, you know, the monthly rate for that. And I just like, changed it. Okay. There is, you know, 50 full RV hookup sites.   There's maybe 50 with only electric or something. And I just tailored it to kind of fit a campground. So I've been actually working on that because there is not really a template or a calculator to analyze a campground because they're so different. Each one is so unique with what they have to offer and what are those different revenue streams. That's also what entices me, because there's so much different ways you can generate revenue off of a campground.   So for the deal analysis, it's really been, so I'm only offering on my second one, I've analyzed maybe four or five in total now. And I just, I have to completely almost redo the spreadsheet every single time, because they're going to have different expenses. They're going to have a different income streams. So I really just start by making a list of what I think the revenue is. It can generate. And then I'm pulling comps. I'm looking at websites of other RV parks in the area.   And I'm like, okay, what is their daily rate? What's their seasonal rate. A lot of times it even says what they charge for different things. So like one campground had a zip line and ATVs or whatever, and you'd pay like $25 for a day pass, use the activities. Okay, well, I could do that online, and this is what I could charge. So pulling comps on the campgrounds, because that's going to be your competition. People are going to look at what's around, especially the seasonal, because seasonal campers usually don't live that far from where they're parking their camper, usually within an hour, because they're going there on weekends, you know, the days off or even just for a night sometimes, and then commuting bathroom work, blackout work.   The one that I had offered on first at the Mo the owner said, the majority of people there lived within 30 minutes of where they were keeping their campsite. So if they're looking in that area, that's definitely going to be, your competition is looking right there and see what amenities they have, and then kind of figure out the price. It's almost like a, how an appraiser does an appraisal, those do the bedroom, count the bathrooms and then compares them and like, okay, this is the average, this is what I can put that value to that property.   Jesse (29m 4s): It's almost like how many things can we unitize and figure out what those, what those costs are or income is in terms of the, as a complete outsider in this, in this sector. Is there a case for campgrounds? Like, are there situations where the campground you can purchase the business itself, but not the real estate? Or are those always kind of co-mingled   Ashley (29m 28s): No, you definitely can where you do like a land contract, but that would be something that I'm not interested in at all. I like the idea of owning the property. And I joked when I went this recent one I'm offering, I joke that in 10 years, I'm going to pay it off. I'm going to kick everybody out and I'm just going to build my dream house live there.   Jesse (29m 50s): So actually we were on one of the panels that we had in, at the conference we were talking about, well, it was, it was a question for a couple of us on the panel and it was talking about the regulatory environment. And I thought, it'd be interesting to ask you because New York state, I think is probably of all the states, it's probably has a little bit more of regulatory kind of work to get through from a landlord tenant perspective. How, how have you looked at real estate or how has that impacted how you look at real estate, especially in your, in your state?   Ashley (30m 23s): Yeah, so it's definitely not a landlord friendly state, New York by all means. So everything really changed for the worse in June of 2019. And even now just with COVID the, the regulations they put on, on evictions and everything like that has been awful to deal with and what tenants can get away with. And it definitely has deterred me from wanting to keep building a portfolio here. I think that I do have a nice sized portfolio.   And if I, which I do think I will continue doing a bunch of burgers is I'll, I'll go out of state and kind of diversify in different markets. Maybe do a couple here a year still, just because it's so easy for me. Cause I know the market and I know the properties and I get a lot of deals sent to me. But yeah, we, we were lucky. We didn't have too many people that didn't pay during COVID, but there's one person that hasn't paid since COVID and we can't evict them.   We can't do anything. So I was very thankful that I gave up property management before COVID hit, because I wouldn't be bald ripping my hair out even more. So that was nice. But yeah, I, I think that if you are investing on state, don't come to me here.   Jesse (31m 46s): Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a, there's definitely a different, I mean, we're, we're very, I think our whole country safer for Alberta is, is a challenging regulatory environment. I think rent stabilization and rent control. We had a professor actually from New York city from NYU that was talking about the history of rent control and rent stabilization in New York state and then across the country. But I think for us, I'm not sure if it's the same for you, but basically we have a certain amount that we can raise every year. And they're really the only time you can raise above that is when a new tenant comes in.   I'm not sure if it's the same kind of,   Ashley (32m 20s): Yeah, we don't have that like outside of Buffalo, cause that's more like New York city, but for us, the biggest thing is like in June when all of the, the laws kind of changed and they just changed so drastically. So it used to be a three-day notice before you could file a petition for eviction, but then it changed to a 10 day notice and then it just like made the whole eviction process a lot longer, the different rules and regulations they put in and just a lot easier for tenants to get away without paying rent just a lot more loopholes and things like that.   Jesse (32m 56s): Yeah, absolutely. I think one very like a stark difference between let's just use Buffalo, for example, compared to say our market in Toronto or I mean you could go LA you could go, Boston, Buffalo has been a very, I think yields centric type of market where you, the cap rates that you can achieve around your area, probably a lot higher than the cap rates we can achieve in our area. But I think that has been at the expense of potential equity growth. So how do you look at, at that when you are doing your underwriting and just generally your philosophy of, of that trade-off between, you know, potential income as opposed to value?   Ashley (33m 36s): Yeah, so like one thing is the 50% rule in the 1% rule. So the 1% rule says that the per your, the rent that you're charging each month is 1% of the purchase price. I can hit that all day long. What I can't hit is the 50% rule where 50% of your expenses are 50% of the monthly income because the property taxes are so high too. So that's like a, not even the, the laws at all, just property taxes are so high here too. So that's been kind of another reason for me to want to go out of state for my rental portfolio, because if I buy this $20,000 property, I can pay that off very quickly or just pay for that in cash.   But I'm still paying those properties taxes every single year. And those, I just sold a property that the property, it was 20,000. I had bought it for and the property taxes were about three grand a year on it. And, but I could go upstate and I could pay maybe, you know, 50, 60,000 for that same house, but only pay a thousand dollars in property taxes. And once that property is paid off, it's only a thousand that I'm paying every year instead of 3000. So that I would say is even more of a factor to me than the, the landlord tenant laws, even.   Jesse (34m 54s): Yeah. It's funny that we would be the inverse of that. The 1% is almost impossible if not impossible, but the 50%, which is, you know, for listers, like you have a, your, whatever your expense ratio is, that's really, really what it is, you know, as a percentage. So us, I think 30 to 40% is pretty, pretty normal. It, unless it's brand new and then you can get a little bit lower, but yeah, I didn't, you know, and I didn't even think of that from a property tax perspective. That's really, I always, I, when you mentioned that, I thought it would have just been just expenses in general, not necessarily property tax.   Ashley (35m 26s): Yeah. It's, it's definitely the property tax, but we actually in Erie county, which is the county that's in Buffalo and, or surrounds it, they actually have an Excel sheet that they, every year that they just put on the county website that tells you each town and what the tax rate is for those towns. And then it compares it for you. It says, okay, if you buy a hundred thousand dollar house, this is what your taxes would be on that property. And you can go through and see, and it shows, breaks it down from like town and county.   And then if there's a village to village tax and then school tax. So what you can do is you can go through there and say, okay, these are the desirable school districts. Well, what towns border that, where you're paying that low town and county tax, but you're getting into that school district because of that little bit of overlapping. So if you guys, and anybody wants to go and look search your county, I'm sure they probably do this too. If your county does and look at that and you can see what towns have the lowest tax rate tax rates.   So the last house that I, I just did a flip and that house had super, super low property taxes. It was in a small little town and the reason it had low property taxes was because there was like a garbage dump in the area landfill. And they pay the majority of the property taxes. Well, this property was like right on the edge of the border where you're not getting any smell from the landfill. And so it was kind of like an opportunity because you get that, you know, I, that property, I also purchased for 20,000, but instead of 3000 and proper Texas, it was only $850 a year in property taxes.   Just show the difference. Yeah.   Jesse (37m 12s): Yeah. I think that's, I mean, it's pretty amazing. Like you can have properties within, you know, 45 minutes an hour from each other and just have such a drastic price difference when it comes to property tax Ashley, in terms of the way that you're looking at the market right now, and fingers crossed, hopefully we're coming out of this thing, you know, in, in the right direction, when it comes to the lockdowns and restrictions, what is, where do you see opportunities over the next few years? You know, what's, what's kind of got your interest aside, you know, aside from, from the, what we've discussed here, but what are you excited about?   Ashley (37m 47s): Well, I guess, you know, I'm trying to stay away from that shiny object centers. Talking about teenagers is bad for me, but I think there'll be a opportunity for businesses. So going after businesses that maybe are sick of the COVID regulations, or maybe they did fall behind and during COVID and they just haven't been able to catch up. So I think there'll be opportunity there. So some of the businesses I'd be interested in are not really going to be ones that were impacted by COVID, but were actually empowered by COVID.   So they actually did better. So that would be like liquor stores, which I got one of those. And unfortunately we didn't get our like liquor license until basically the shutdown was kind of over, but looking at the kind of businesses that can survive COVID I think really piques my interest that if there was another shutdown or something like that happening again, that these businesses were thriving and they still do successful anyways, even when there isn't a shutdown.   So that was like a liquor store was a big one for me. And then I also like the idea of a laundry mat or a carwash, just the, the, the ease of the cash cow from those. And then I do have some experience managing a laundromat for that, that other owner. So yeah, those are any other business opportunities   Jesse (39m 18s): Working with that. Gentlemen is the gift that keeps on giving we've. We've looked at laundromats as well. It's just one of those compelling things that even without buying the real estate there, there still is a compelling case. If you can obviously do both. That's great. But I like your point in terms of businesses that have been resilient. I mean, we've seen in our own market, you know, whether it's technology, medical, technology companies, ghost kitchens, just companies that you didn't, you couldn't foresee how much, how explosive their growth would be prior to the pandemic, obviously for, you know, nobody has a crystal ball, but that that's, we do see those companies, a big driver of, of real estate at least locally here.   And I'm sure it's, it's the case where you are.   Ashley (39m 60s): Yeah. And even with auto dealerships. So I've been in because of the same investor I've been in the auto dealership industry and they are making more money now because of the shortage of cars. So every car that they're selling, it's getting selled at invoice or above because there's no cars available because all the chips and all the parts are stuck on a ship waiting to come into the us. But they they've said that they sold they're making as much as they did, but they're selling half of what they sold before.   COVID. So they're doing less work, making the same amount of money. So it's been almost beneficial to them to, I mean, there's definitely was some hardships, especially during the shutdown and things like that, but there's the PPP programs that I think helped a lot of, of businesses. So it's very interesting to see what businesses actually have benefited from COVID and have done better.   Jesse (40m 57s): Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Well, actually, I want to be respectful of your time here. There's four questions that we ask every guest that comes on the show. So before we kind of get on how people can reach out to you, if you're game for those all, I'll start them off. What's something that, you know, now it could be in your real estate or career in general that you wish you knew when you were starting out.   Ashley (41m 19s): So, one thing that I did not know was that you could go and get a loan for an investment property. I thought you had to make a cash, but you had to buy it in cash because that's how that other investor had purchased all of his properties. So I wish that I would have known that there was other options to me then just taking on a partner and I could have explored that. And not that I, you know, made a bad decision or anything like that, but I wish I wouldn't have had that limited mindset of that. You could only buy a property in cash, and I didn't even realize creative financing and all the different ways to purchase property until I actually found bigger pockets in 2017.   So that was three years later. And then I tripled my portfolio in a year and a half after just digging into the forums and learning all these different ways, you know, seller financing and private money, all these different things.   Jesse (42m 13s): Yeah. Just, just all the different resources. The next question is, you know what, since you were on a panel for women in real estate, maybe we'll, I'll kind of tweak the question a little bit. Typically we'll ask, you know, your view, what would you give as a recommendation to younger people coming into our industry, your view on mentorship, but why don't we say from a, especially from a female point of view, younger women coming into our industry, you know, what would be your advice to them? And, and just generally, and mentorship,   Ashley (42m 41s): I think that there are some women out there who think that they are at a disadvantage being a woman in real estate, because there's so many men doing it. Don't look at it like that. It is an opportunity and it is an advantage. You are going to stand out because you are a woman. If you go and look at a property with a broker, do you think he's going to remember the 20 other men that have looked at it and know he's going to remember that one woman that came, that you know, is investing in properties.   I think there's a lot of doubts and that, you know, you're going to get scammed by contractors because you're a woman, you know, don't know what you're doing. And that's also an advantage. You know, if a contractor is going to try and scam you, because you're a woman who's going to do it right off the bat. So if he's talking down to you or things like that, then you know, not to hire him or if it's a guy and the contractor is like, okay, he probably knows what he's doing. I'm going to scan them at them or something.   But I, I think use it to your advantage. And it's an opportunity. And if you feel like, because you are a woman that you are not being taken seriously, then you're talking to the wrong people. You're talking to the wrong person because I have more friends in real estate that are men than women and not a single one of them has ever talked down to me or made me feel like I don't belong. That it's a boys club at all. If anything, I feel like I've been more welcomed because I am a woman.   There's a million other men doing what I'm doing, but there's not as many women. So it's given me an opportunity, a like up and I think take advantage of that   Jesse (44m 25s): Great advice. Okay. Is there a resource, a podcast or book that you'd like, let listeners know about that you're listening to reading   Ashley (44m 36s): The real estate rookie puck.   Jesse (44m 41s): Yeah. As well.   Ashley (44m 44s): Yeah. If there is actually a book that I love and I think that anybody who's in business or the real estate or any other business should read this because no matter what, you're going to be dealing with people, and it's a hug your haters by Jay Baer. And it's a customer service based book. And basically it talks about like, if you received negative feedback or criticism, how to deal with that, and also how to kill people with kindness. So if you are a wholesaler and you're getting, you know, sellers that are, you know, or you know, how to work with them.   And so I, it's a, it's a great read. I, it's probably the, one of the, probably the only book that I've scribbled in that much before and like taken notes and highlighted things. And so   Jesse (45m 32s): That's great that I think that's the first on the show. I've never heard of it. We'll put a link up to that as well. Awesome. All right. My favorite question, first car, make and model.   Ashley (45m 42s): It was a green Bonneville. I don't even want the makeup upon GMC or Chevy or something, but That's basically about think of a vote.   Jesse (45m 57s): Yeah, just, just in a, in a what's it called in Buffalo with a PO thing. It's Pontiac. Pontiac Bonneville. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well, Ashley, for, for people that like to kind of find out what you're doing online, like I said, you have great, great presence on, on Instagram and other platforms were where's the best bless area for people to reach out.   Ashley (46m 19s): It will be on Instagram app wealth from rentals. And then we also have a real estate rookie, a YouTube channel, and then a real estate rookie, a Facebook page. You guys just searched those.   Jesse (46m 32s): My guest today has been Ashley Kurt, Ashley, thank you for being part of working capital.   Ashley (46m 36s): Thank you so much for having me.   Jesse (46m 45s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Happy Halloween 2021, Everyone! And I can't think of a single better way to spend Halloween than to learn about some good old fashioned heresy! I hope you enjoy the show! And be safe out there today!

Beau and Carl chat about the Hundred Years War with specific reference to the final years of conflict. With Joan of Arc successfully relieving Orleans, and her subsequent boost to French morale, the tide of war begins to ebb in the favour of France. With many years and many battles left to fight, hear how the events played out.

Em Orleans, o Outubro Rosa, campanha de conscientização à prevenção ao câncer de mama, terá ponto final nesta sexta-feira, dia 29, quando ocorrerá o lançamento da revista “Rede Feminina em Foco”. A iniciativa é da Rede Feminina de Combate ao Câncer em parceria com o Centro Universitário Barriga Verde (Unibave), que também será sede do lançamento a partir das 19h30. De acordo com a presidente da entidade, Edina Furlan Rampinelli, a revista será distribuída de maneira gratuita nas unidades de saúde e para famílias mais vulneráveis. “É uma revista que vai ser mais um instrumento na mão da população para contar um pouco dos serviços da Rede Feminina e, especialmente, falar de promoção da saúde, qualidade de vida e de prevenção ao câncer”, descreveu, em entrevista por telefone ao Cruz de Malta Notícias | 2ª Edição desta sexta-feira.

O delegado regional de Polícia Civil em Criciúma, Vitor Bianco Júnior, concedeu entrevista ao repórter Nei Bordignon na manhã desta sexta-feira, dia 29, dando a versão do órgão sobre a ocorrência que culminou no falecimento de um homem lauromüllense após abordagem policial, na última terça-feira, dia 26, na Praça Celso Ramos, em Orleans. Após o caso, foi instaurado um Inquérito a fim de apurar e esclarecer as circunstâncias do fato ocorrido. Já foram ouvidas testemunhas, realizadas as diligências preliminares e perícias pertinentes. “Ele estava sendo investigado pela Polícia Civil em razão dele, possivelmente, estar praticando crimes de cunho sexual contra crianças e adolescentes. A abordagem foi realizada, após testemunhas terem relatado que ele teria praticado tais atos”, argumentou Bianco. “O homem não atendeu às ordens e reagiu contra os policiais. O agente de polícia ficou com a mão, ombro, cotovelo e joelho esquerdo lesionados. O delegado Fernando Guzzi saiu em defesa do policial, fez o uso progressivo da força e, tanto o delegado, quanto o homem vieram a cair. O delegado fraturou a costela e conseguiram fazer a algemação e perceberam que ele estava inconsciente”, completou. Segundo Bianco, os Bombeiros e o Samu foram acionados enquanto uma testemunha e um policial tentavam fazer a reanimação, mas o lauromüllense veio a óbito. “Foi uma fatalidade. A abordagem policial não durou mais do que dois minutos, tem a filmagem. Estamos ouvindo testemunhas da abordagem e dos supostos crimes de cunho sexual. Infelizmente, aconteceu aquilo que nós não pretendíamos. Em momento algum os policiais se dirigem ao local para tirar a vida da pessoa”, finalizou.

Everyone knows her as Kelsie Chace, but now, she goes by Kelsie Chace Domer after marrying Ryan Domer on Oct. 3, 2021. Domer, an eight-time WPRA World Champion, qualified for her first-ever National Finals of Breakaway Roping, to be held at The Orleans in Dec. 2021. In this episode, brought to you by Durango Boot, Domer discusses her 2021 Pro Rodeo season, her preparation for the NFBR, team roping and more. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Orleans County's infection rates are almost three times the state average; School officials say it could cost $184,000 to change Rutland's mascot; Environmentalists protest GlobalFoundries' plan to become its own electric utility; Modernizing the unemployment mainframe.

Clip Overview JE hails from Canada and was a great interview - twice! Sorry, forgot to hit record the first time. It was just practice. She is a mother and spends time reading and making up stories with her girls. She talks about using a new app to distribute her book along with the standard distributors. Sometimes taking chances on something new pays off. Website https://www.jemcdonald.net/books https://www.jemcdonald.net/ Get It http://stardust-h5.stardustgod.com/kiss/shareBookPage.html?bookId=614362080ae3211d0b4f9797&randomId=113005250_1632504155&type=1001&pushType=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0899HTB95/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0899HTB95&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=31d6448ad3b1dd13d8715e42000a11bc Favorites https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09JVXLR24/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B09JVXLR24&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=320286b21b3fc5e862b74ddf6fddbec3 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/108785752X/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=108785752X&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=13cd00a0810d139df3ce08e38dd48a52 Bookstore YouTube https://youtu.be/AOJb7FR7ArM Transcript [00:00:32] Stephen: So welcome to discovered wordsmiths episode 71. This is a great episode because I forgot to start recording at the beginning. So we had to repeat some of it. I apologize. She was a great sport about it, and we got through it and pretty much said the same things, but luckily I haven't done that too much as I'm recording this right now, I just got back from a weekend [00:01:00] in new Orleans with a bunch of other great writers. From J thorns author success mastermind group. We had a good time learning some vampire stuff. We got to talk to Dacre Stoker, who is the great grand nephew of Brahms Stoker. And he told us a lot of things about his research into his great grand uncles book. We got to explore the French quarter delve into a vampire speakeasy that we got to go to secret. It was a good time, a lot of good people. So look for a book next year, a vampire anthology that I will have a story in and so will several other great authors. And as usual, Jay puts Jay and Zach, not just J I apologize, put the book up for a charity and that's super great because you get some authors that get published. You get. Book of stories on vampires. If you like that, you've got something new to [00:02:00] read. Plus a charity is getting benefited. So I encourage everybody to go grab that book when it's available. So before I ramble on too long, let's go here. JE McDonald. Welcome to discovered wordsmiths our second take. So let everybody know yet we started talking and totally forgot that record. Luckily with me, I have someone is taking it all in stride. I've got Jay McDonald. Good morning. How are you again? [00:02:29] JE McDonald: I am great. Thank you for having [00:02:31] Stephen: me getting less. Great. If this thing ever ends, [00:02:35] JE McDonald: it's all good. It's all good. I'm fine. [00:02:38] Stephen: Yeah. Okay. So now that I know where you're from and a little bit about you, but nobody else does, because they didn't hear you tell everybody a little bit about yourself, where you're from and things you like. [00:02:52] JE McDonald: I am from Canada, a little city called Saskatoon in a province called Saskatchewan. Yeah. As we said before, [00:03:00] it's right. Smack dab in Canada in the middle of the rectangular shaped one. If you look at a map of Canada very flat, very farm land and. No mountains, but I love it. It's great. Cold in the winter. Very hot in the summer. And yeah, I'm a mother of three daughters who keep me very busy. I'm a writer. Who's obsessed with writing. I read all the time. I love all things writing related. [00:03:26] Stephen: Got it. That was basically it. In a nutshell,

Founded in Woodstock, NY Orleans went from club and college funk in the Northeast United States to worldwide acclaim with their top ten singles "Still the One," Dance With Me," and "Love Takes Time.”  Members of the band have collaborated with an array of artists including Bonnie Raitt, Jackson Browne and Little Feat. In 2022, the group celebrates its 50th year of live performances. Orleans has produced a body of work spanning 18 albums and several DVDs, the band's music is still being heard on national TV.  orleansonline.com

Episode 60 brings us a Dumb Birthday Game from October 21st, 1995 I’ve titled this: Wild Abandon. Not only because of what Norm says but also because of one of the players. And listen closely as we get a couple of definitions of ‘wild abandon.’ We begin with Norm and Jack Harte talking about the tag line “Welcome to our world!” on the Air Canada commercial which leads to some voice lessons from Jack. And speaking of welcomes…Bonjour, France! Yet another country added to our simmering fandom. And the timing couldn’t be better as France plays a role in the DBG too! The players: Jack Harte Ed LeClair producing and playing Kevin in Kittery ME Sally from Reading Mary Ellen in Braintree Larry in Orleans on the Cape who can’t say when he’s enjoyed himself, though he can’t stop talking. Bdays: Whitey Ford Carrie Fisher Elvin Bishop George Bell Dates in History: First lightbulb that really worked was turned on by Thomas Edison in Menlo Park. Women in France were allowed to vote for the first time. Norm sings “La Vie En Rose” Then Norm AND Jack go all French on us! The U.S.S. Constitution “Old Ironsides” was launched. I will inform you that the tape ends, switches sides and then we hear the close of the game but there’s quite a nice prize for the winner. Email the show normnathanvos@gmail.com Castos https://norm-nathans-vault-of-silliness.castos.com Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/norm-nathans-vault-of-silliness/id1539251258 Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/74Z2CAHU1TT9KHCEiEdrkG Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Ep-Norm-Nathans-Vault-Silliness/dp/B08JJSR5MF/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=vault+of+silliness&qid=1604440081&sr=8-1 Google https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9ub3JtLW5hdGhhbnMtdmF1bHQtb2Ytc2lsbGluZXNzLmNhc3Rvcy5jb20vZmVlZA?sa=X&ved=0CAYQrrcFahcKEwiY4PGsu-_sAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ

Our local expert on Vodou, Hoodoo, Conjure and Palo joins us so we can pick his brain about some of those things

Federico y Ayanta Barilli entrevistan a Eduardo Álvarez por su libro El hijo de Eulalia sobre la vida de Luis Fernando de Orleans y Borbón.

Clip Overview Kevin is back to give us an update on how his writing life is doing - and his health. Kevin has been working under another pen name and has worked in the new Kindle Vella. He also has written a short story collection: Get It https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09D6CFDLM/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B09D6CFDLM&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=41837b88cd71d66461160f36dfabcfcf YouTube https://youtu.be/-HyEi2GQPIQ Transcript [00:00:50] Stephen: Hey, welcome to discovered wordsmith episode 70. And I wanted to say real quick, last week's episode with Jim Irving was the [00:01:00] first, second interview I've given. So if you haven't listened to that one, it's worth going back to listen to, he has a great book to help a business to business leaders. Last time it was business to business sales. It's nice to hear from Jim. And he was from Spain instead of Ireland this time. So it's a good little talk. Today I've got another second interview with Kevin J fellows talking about his book and of the world and the new books coming out. And following this episode, we have a chapter read from that book. Give that a listen. And just a quick update. It is the week that I am going to new Orleans to join some other writers in a world-building event. This is one of Jade thorns mastermind, world-building events, Jay thorn, and Zack Hannah, I should say. And we are going to. Go right into new Orleans, right into the French quarter dive into the culture the fuel, the smells, everything, and [00:02:00] we're going to recreate a world to write vampire stories and all the authors there are going to have. Vampire stories. We're going to collect into an anthology and then any money will go to charity. It's something I'll tell everybody about, you should check out when we're done. So I'm very excited that we are doing that this week. It was supposed to be last week or sorry, last year, but because of COVID had got pushed off to this year. So luckily we are doing. Before I ramble on too long I will turn it over to Kevin and stay tuned for the next episode for his reach. I have to read Kevin, welcome to discover the wordsmith podcast again. And I see you this time. This is great. I love the technological improvements. COVID has bestowed upon us. So how are you doing. I'm good. [00:02:48] Kevin: Actually today it's a, it's a weird day, a day after a holiday. It feels like a Monday, but it's not so [00:02:54] Stephen: Yeah. I feel like I've got a million things I got to get done and get caught up with, I know when we [00:03:00] talked clear back, oh, a year ago, About your book. You had said you got into writing because you had heart attack. How's that going? How's your health then? Oh, [00:03:09] Kevin: my health has actually been really good. I've I was doing some work last year. That was extremely stressful and that wasn't so good for my health and my heart and I could feel it. So I stopped doing that work. Really? Just focus more on the writing. I did have I had a checkup. And it was the best since the heart attack. So it was good. Everything is actually going in the right door. W we'll [00:03:33] Stephen: attribute some of that to writing that writing helps you. We'll say that's what did it, we can pass that along. It's official. I'm glad my father had his first open heart. When I was still in high school. My personal health is always an issue that I've got to keep in the forefront. No, I would hate to have all these great story ideas and not be able to write them. [00:03:55] Kevin: Yep. Same thing here. I look at the list of stories and things that [00:04:00] I feel are. You have a lot of ideas and they don't all work out, but I still have a list of things that I think are going to work out. And yeah. I want to be around to tell those stories. [00:04:11] Stephen: Agreed. Speaking of your,

Tina Howell & Jeff Maumus of Fleurs Truly interview College/Pro Football Analyst Mike Detillier and co-host of SportsTalk @WWLAMFM, M&D NFL Draft Report http://SaintsReport.com @ESPN @SInow, @Thibodauxreg, @HollywoodSblogMike talks about the Saints progress, Sean Payton's yo yo effect, Jameis Winston, Ed Orgeron & The Possible New Head Coach of LSU, And Louisiana's Post Hurricane StrugglesFollow Mike on Twitter:https://twitter.com/MikeDetillierHere is Mike's website:http://www.mikedetillier.com/You can also find him at:https://saintsreport.com/https://wwl.radio.com/https://www.htv10.tv/our-apologies?ur...https://www.si.com/https://www.espn.com/_____________________________________________________Please Like & Subscribe! We are very positive and supportive & love like-minded people. Our shows reach millions per week on our social media platforms. Please Follow Us on Social Media:Twitter:Tina Howell: https://twitter.com/TheNolaGirlJeff Maumus: https://twitter.com/TheNolaRollaJim Jax: https://twitter.com/JimJaxMediaFlorence Carmela: https://twitter.com/FlorenceCarmelaThe Forum: https://twitter.com/_TheForumInstagram: Tina Howell: https://www.instagram.com/thenolagirl...Jeff Maumus: https://www.instagram.com/jcmaumu1/?h...Jim Jax: https://www.instagram.com/jimjaxmedia/Florence Carmela: https://www.instagram.com/florence_ca...Spreaker Podcast Site: -Fleurs Truly (A New Orleans based podcast which celebrates the sports, food & culture of NOLA. Hosted by Tina Howell & Jeff Maumus): https://www.spreaker.com/show/fleurs-...-Main site for all of the sports & entertainment podcasts on the Jim Jax Media Network: https://www.spreaker.com/user/10814098_______________________________________

The Alchemist check in to The Beyond! Key Elements: Spider Buffet, Evil Wendy, Good/Bad Boy Join The Club: Patreon.com/filmalchemistpod Find Rob's work at https://www.robpilk.com Twitter: @robpilk  

John Hall, you may remember from a couple of episodes ago, is the founder of the band Orleans. He recently released a solo album, his seventh (if you count the John Hall Band material). After spending some time in local and national politics, he returned to Orleans and they're still making music. In fact, at the time of the previous interview they were putting the finishing touches on Orleans' first Christmas album. That album is now finished and is available for your purchasing and listening pleasure. It's called New Star Shining, and it's a great piece of work. There's a lot of original material, a traditional Christmas carol and a single song from more recent holiday music canon. For lack of a better term, it's a kind of Yacht Rock Christmas album. I think the rowdiest track on it is their version of "Winter Wonderland." John and I met in the atrium of a Nashville hotel (more details during the show itself), and I do hope you'll forgive a little ambient noise. Plus, there was a little bit of both of us fidgeting with our handheld microphones. For all that, once again John comes through as a very thoughtful fellow. By that I mean he's not spouting out canned answers to the questions I asked (although some of them were inadvertentely rehearsed--my recorder failed and we had to start over again). And even with that technical glitch, he was both gracious and forgiving, and managed to make me feel not as stupid as I originally felt when I looked at the recorder in horror and realized what happened. Also, I'm a complete idiot because I didn't ask for an autograph, or a selfie of the two of us, or anything. So this recording is the only evidence that we were in the same space together. As an aside, the next day I was in the Podcast Movement conference and chatting with the people from ElectroVoice Microphones. I was using some new EV microphones for the interview. I told them about my interview "right over there in the atrium," and some of the issues I had with the fidgeting noises and such. While we chatted, one of the EV reps walked away and then came back. He handed me a box and said, "Here, try this one." It was a different model microphone, which he said would probably solve that problem. Boom! Free microphone! I used it to record some other material you'll hear in an upcoming episode and I think you'll notice the difference! This is why I worship at the Church of ElectroVoice. I did get the opportunity to thank them again a couple of days later. So here is my follow-up interview with John, which we did during the first week of August this past summer. Enjoy! Sorry, no transcript available for this episode. Enjoy this instead. Click here to support the show as a Patron.

"When you were little, you dreamed you were bigYou must have been something, a real tiny kidYou wish you were me, I wish I was youNow don't you wake up, the dream will come trueEvery dream has a name, and names tell your storyThis song is your dream, you're the dream operator"Please allow me to be your musical guide on the Sunday Edition of Whole 'Nuther Thing. A show for the Ornithologist in us all featuring tunes from The Byrds, Blue Jays, Blackbyrds, Eagles,  Nada Surf, The Hooters, NRBQ, David Bowie, The Go Go's, R.E.M. ELO, Marshall Crenshaw, Orleans, Blondie, Grateful Dead, Sly & The Family Stone, Bryan Adams, Genesis, The Fixx, Radiohead, Graham Parker, Moody Blues, Booker T & The MG's, Beatles, Santa Esmeralda, Matthews Southern Comfort, Tears For Fears and Talking  Heads.

Joseph Biasi spends his Days Analysing Economic Trends and their Relationship with Commercial Real Estate for CoStar – the Leading Real Estate Data Analytics and Aggregator in the US.  In this episode we talked about: Joseph's Bio & Activity Commercial Real Estate Market Outlook Retail Property Analysis Industrial Real Estate Overview Interest Rates Government Policy Single Family VS Multifamily Real Estate The Effect of Inflation on Real Estate Investors Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.costar.com Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to working capital the real estate podcast. My special guest today is Joseph Biassi. Joseph spends his days analyzing economic trends and the relationship with the commercial real estate sector. And he works for CoStar advisory services. For those of you that don't know what CoStar is, they're the leading real estate data analytics and aggregator in the us. And I'm not sure if Canada as well, but I wouldn't be surprised we use them pretty much every day. They're our go-to for analytics, for properties, for research and a part of our underwriting process. Joseph, how's it going? Great. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Do I have that right, Joseph, in terms of CoStar where they're at today, maybe you could, you could let the audience know a little bit about your position there and CoStar in general and what you guys do. Sure. Yeah. Joseph(1m 10s): CoStar is a data analytics platform and a data vendor. We, we track pretty much every commercial building that we can at least get research on across the United States. We are moving into Canada as well, more and more. We're getting better coverage in Canada and as well as Europe, my job in particular is I sit on top of that data as a consultant. I'm a senior consultant with advisory services. And my job in particular is to advise client both developers as well as investors on macro economic and commercial real estate trends Jesse (1m 45s): Right on. Yeah. What I've noticed is we have, I think 84, 85 offices now, and we've, we've pretty much switched over completely to CoStar and that goes for Canadian and, and us markets, but it's definitely come a long way in terms of the coverage that we have at least, you know, in our major markets, you pretty much, you've got everything covered there. Speaker 1 (2m 7s): Yeah. I mean, we've been really pushing research recently. Speaker 0 (2m 11s): So this was, this was something we were at, we were at this panel and in new Orleans this past, I guess two weekends ago now, and we were talking about, you know, where, where people can find information, those people looking for deals in the market and a lot of, a lot of what we do on the investing side and not just in brokerage, but we'll, you know, when we tried to track down owners, a lot of times we're looking at properties on CoStar trying to find the beneficial, the true owners and reach out to them directly for off market deals. Speaker 1 (2m 38s): Yeah. So I, I, before actually, before I worked at CoStar, worked in brokerage. And so I was, I I've been a user, it's a fantastic site for anybody who wants to do any kind of real estate deals, right. On a little biased, but Speaker 0 (2m 52s): Yeah, a little biased. So in terms of the, the actual market, I thought what would be, will be just that would be useful and educational for our listeners is talking a little bit about what's been going on in the market over the last year or two and the outlook for the next, let's call it a mid to mid to longterm. And by longterm for me, I think five years, I don't think longer than that, but yeah. You know, let's talk a little bit about the commercial real estate market in general, over the last two years, how have things changed in terms of the data that you're seeing in terms of the way you approach the market and, and your analysis? Speaker 1 (3m 31s): Great question. Yeah. So, you know, when the pandemic hit, I think there was a lot of fear going around and that translated into a lot less commercial real estate deals, particularly in the office sector. Everybody began to work from home. We knew, we noticed a pretty steep drop off in transaction activity, which has since returned. And that's, that's pretty much been the story is we had this initial 20, 20 decline, a couple of, a couple of quarters of, you know, pretty severe transaction volume decline. And it's all become back effectively, but it's come back in a very different way. And that's the actual story behind what's happening in the commercial real estate market is if you look at the macro macro numbers, you know, total amount of transaction, the total transaction volume is back. But if you look at where that's happening, it's very different. For example, the Dallas Fort worth had more transaction activity in 2020, the first half of 2021 than New York. That's not normal. We're seeing, we're seeing those rooms moved down to, if you're talking about retailer, multi-family, we're seeing them move down to the south, the study United States, as opposed to, you know, the new York's and the San Francisco's of the world. Phoenix is another market we've seen, which is, I suppose, as a Western market, those, those Sunbelt markets are where we're seeing the most demographic growth. We're seeing the most transaction activity. And we're seeing the biggest pricing gains across all four, four major property types Speaker 0 (4m 55s): In terms of the, to go from geographic to the property types, if, you know, starting with retail, I guess. Cause that's, that's the one where when the pandemic first started, there was the big question of retail, which I think for, for the most part has been overbuilt. I don't think it's a surprise in the U S Canada. Canada's pretty. Yeah. I mean, we are as well, but I think we're somewhere in between the U S and in most European countries on a per square foot basis. But talk about retail, you know, how has that analysis been over the last, you know, call it a year to two years? Speaker 1 (5m 29s): I think retail, it, at least in my opinion is one of the most fascinating property types. Like, yeah, you're absolutely right. There needs to be some level of rationalization. If the landscape has changed, it is no longer the place where people go deep. The only place people go shopping to buy goods, that doesn't mean it's going away and there's still, I would argue opportunities. And I think that's the way we've been trying to, to talk about retail, which is look, you know, you're not, if you're looking at a class B or class seem, all those are going to struggle, but if you're looking at, you know, there's still good opportunities and you just, there's a lot more nuance and a lot more detail that you need to look into for a retail building the tenants matter so much in a retail building, even more than an office or an industrial building, because if you have a good grocery anchor, a neighborhood center in a well-populated area, that's still a good asset. And that, that I think has kind of been, under-reported just due to the fear around retail during the pandemic and the fear around retail because of e-commerce. Speaker 0 (6m 36s): Yeah. It's a, it's one of those things that we've always talked about that, you know, good grocery store, anchored retail. I can't imagine in a lot of these markets, if anything, they were a bit, some of those properties were buoyed by the fact that the only places that were open were the Walmarts or, you know, these grocery stores that were anchored. Speaker 1 (6m 54s): Exactly. And we're, you know, we are seeing, you know, returns to normal leasing patterns in the Southern states where, you know, where retail really does follow rooftops. And in those Southern states, we've seen pretty much a full recovery, and we've seen a pretty much a full recovery in terms of pricing as well. Whereas if you talk about, you know, these, these tertiary markets in the Midwest, or some of these coastal gateway markets that have really struggled during the pandemic, there's still, there's still losing people. They're still struggling to kind of recover. Speaker 0 (7m 25s): So have you seen, I know you, you track a lease terms and different differently structures. Have you seen a difference in the way that retailers are approaching their leases? You know, where you could have some retailers in the past doing 5, 10, 15, 20 year leases, has that, has that shifted or is it, is it too early to tell Speaker 1 (7m 43s): It's a, it's a little early to tell, just because we're, we're finally kind of getting back at least down south, but the, the tenants that they're looking for at certainly become far more focused on either, you know, necessity based retail, certain tenants like dollar stores. So these, these discount stores are doing really well. And then experience-based tenants have done are something that landlords are really looking into as a long-term longer-term play. At some point, this pandemic will become less and less, have less and less of an effect on the economy. And a lot of landlords believe that the future of real estate of retail is experiential. That you're drawing people there for something more than just a shopping experience. Speaker 0 (8m 28s): Does CoStar track the rezoning or reclassification of buildings in terms of, for example, one of the, one of the, the guesses that, you know, that we have is that retail and, and certain types of office buildings may be converted, maybe switch the use might be switched even in hospitality, potentially hospitality going to multi-family. But if do you track that type of thing? Speaker 1 (8m 54s): Yeah. It hasn't occurred as much as you would think, given the amount of airtime, not an ink that's been spilled on it. It really hasn't happened. It does happen, you know, so I went to college in Worcester and the Greendale mall in Worcester got turned into an Amazon distribution center, but that isn't really the rural quite yet. They're still working on that because, you know, it's, a lot of people think that a mall is going to turn into an industrial center, like a distribution center, and it's more likely to be knocked down and turned into multi-family center because it's still the highest and best use is, is multifamily for a dense urban area. We're, we're, we're starting to see some of these malls really struggle. Speaker 0 (9m 36s): Yeah. I think you're absolutely right with the amount of ink that's been spelled as a that's been spilled on it because it is one of those things, I guess, more of an academic thing. It's logical to think that okay. But I think the reality is you get in transaction costs the actual time it takes to convert these things. There's a little bit more that goes on with it. If you, if you kind of slide from retail, move into the, the office space. So my partner and I on the brokerage on predominantly work in office investment sales, as well as leasing, they, I don't, you know, despite some of, you know, what, what has been said last year, that markets haven't been affected. I just think a lot of people were saying certain things were, what we saw was a large, large drop-off in office. And not surprisingly, I'm assuming that's, that's what you S what you've seen. And if not, maybe you could provide some insight there. Speaker 1 (10m 26s): All right. No, absolutely. I, I, if you look at where most of the transaction activity has fallen off, it's been an office and it really has a lot to do with uncertainty. Right. It's, you know, what will work from home look like in five years from now, because if you, and you know, this probably better than I do, if you're buying an office for your leasing office, it's, it's a five to 10 year lease or three to 10 years typically. So you're, you're really guessing what's going to happen down the road. So when you're buying office, it's, it's a little scary right now. And I, I understand that the shop view for CoStar advisory services, and I do not speak for all of CoStar district health, say for CoStar advisory services, is that, you know, the office, there will be less demand for office because I work from home, but we don't believe this is the death of office everybody's going to be working remotely. And we also don't believe that. And I personally don't believe that, you know, these downtown offices are going to, you know, go away anytime soon. I I've in that downtown, these downtown clusters are going to severely struggle. I think the actual concern for office, if we want to think about where, where we might see struggle is those class B offices in urban areas that have less, that don't have as good a commutability score that aren't dark, aren't able to draw. Don't have the same amount of amenities. Those, I think are the ones that well, we think are going to struggle a little bit more. Yeah. It's funny. You Speaker 0 (11m 53s): Mentioned that I was having a conversation with a, with a colleague of mine. And I was, we were talking about that specific thing where a lot of suburban markets actually, haven't been doing particularly poorly with office and then these downtown connected, but there's, these Midtown markets are like these markets that are tertiary markets, that if, unless they have good connectivity, it's a really, you know, there's a question mark about how they'll do well, we've also seen though, is that the, the office side, like you were saying before, the underwriting has changed to the extent that, you know, we, they want to see is what type of tenant, what, you know, where are they in the lease? What are their rights? And, and it's funny too, that you mentioned five-year and then kind of went back to three-year because what we've seen is that, you know, when I started in brokerage, really, it was rare to find even three-year head leases. It was typically a five-year minimum. Where now, if one thing has happened from COVID, we've seen all kinds of different lease lease terms. Speaker 1 (12m 47s): Yeah. I mean, if you, if you think about going to selling a building, occupancy matters more than anything else, even, you know, that's the, that's the first and only thing I, if you have to take some rent losses, you'd rather take some rent losses and lose occupancy. So peop landlords are for office buildings are, you know, it is definitely a tenants market right now, but we, in terms of the, the urban areas, I think the reason they lose out is because the downtown offices have that commutability and then the suburban offices have that advantage of being able to drive to them. If I'm in, I'm in Boston, which is a famously difficult Metro to drive in. And there's no way I'm going to go drive to, let's say Brighton, which is just outside the main city to go to an office there, but I'd be willing to go to suburban office and I'd be willing to take the T down to than the downtown crossing, for example. Speaker 0 (13m 37s): Yeah, for sure. And you, you know, one thing too, is like we've had, what we've seen is that the CFO or COO, depending on, or the real estate, you know, facilities manager, whoever's dealing with the company's real estate. It has been a lot of like kicking the can down the road, because like you said, it's, it's, you're making a decision. That's going to impact five, 10 years. Whereas if you're buying an investment, one thing you can say is that interest rates are where they're at right now. You can, you can, you know, logically pursue maybe a little bit more risky investment, but for the people that work at a company, they're like, I'm not going to make a decision where in a year from now I could look like this was the terrible, the worst thing I did for the company. Speaker 1 (14m 12s): Right. Right. Exactly. Speaker 0 (14m 14s): So if we, okay, so that's retail office. If we switch now to, to industrial, because one thing that was really a cool stat that I saw when, when COVID just happened was the fact that retail sales did not decrease. It's just where the sales happen changed. Right. There was a pivot to online sales, total sales didn't D decrease, at least at the beginning of the pandemic, the data that I was looking at. So I'm curious, I mean, I think it's no surprise industrial's doing pretty well today. Speaker 1 (14m 48s): Yeah, no, it's not. It's no surprise. And it continued to do well. The pandemic, you are somehow seeing cap rate declines, which I think if you said two years ago, most people would be like, there's no way, but I just given how quickly we begun to really shift into e-commerce and the, you know, the room to run in terms of e-commerce. If you look at Europe, Europe uses e-commerce far more than the United States does still, but kind of going back to your point about retail sales it's, I've been tracking it very closely for that specific reason. If you look at retail sales, and this is because, you know, the government stepped in and enacted a lot of stimulus by, by June of 2020 retail sales had more sales than you would expect, given what you would expect pre pandemic. So if you forecast it out pre pandemic, but retail sales should be, and it's a fairly linear trend, you would expect them to have, you know, X amount of retail sales. And we're, we've seen exceed that basically since June of 2020, and about 35% of that is e-commerce, which is impressive when only 16% of retail sales is e-commerce right now. So e-commerce is pushing along, is pushing along retail sales. And realistically there's only, only it can only go up in terms of e-commerce. I want to be careful in saying that, because I know that's gotten people in trouble before. It can only go up in terms of e-commerce industrial is starting to become, starting to see a lot of construction. If you want to talk about the property type in particular, we're starting to see more speculative construction, but on the, at the, at the, at the other end of it, you can make the argument that it's pretty easy to turn off the industrial tap. If you it's just, you're building a big slab of concrete and yeah, exactly. It's a slab of concrete. Got you build a box and you're good to go. And there's a lot of reasons to believe that structural shifts from retail, from onsite retail to e-commerce means strong sales, and that's not even getting into three PLS and manufacturing tenants that we do also expect to do quite well. Amazon alone accounts was one, a hundred million square feet of absorption in 2020. And I, I don't know if they're going to do that again, but they are already, they're already in the, you know, they continue to be the player in the market and continue to push industrial. So do you think, Speaker 0 (17m 20s): Look at the, on the topic, the three PL or third, third party logistics and last mile delivery, like, do you, do you, do, do you break down industrial into these sub categories for your analysis? Speaker 1 (17m 31s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you almost have to, right, because that's how, that's how tenants think about it. You have these big distribution centers and then you have these last miles and, you know, these last miles tend to be these, these crappy frankly buildings that are in well better located areas. And the great thing, if you're looking from an standpoint about these last miles, they're not usually the highest and best use. So there isn't a ton of new construction in the last mile, despite the huge amount of demand for the last mile, at least according to what we're seeing. Speaker 0 (18m 5s): So in terms of the, the actual investment sales side of the industrial coin, when, you know, we see in our market, which I think pre pandemic, we were at 2%, I know Toronto is, I know LA and Toronto you'd know better than I would, but I know that we were at the top and north America with the, in terms of how lower vacancy rates were and continue to be on the industrial side. And what we've seen on the investment sales side is there's only so much product that, you know, you've seen, oh my God, that thing's traded again, that's traded three times in the last year. Are you seeing that same stuff in these really hot markets where properties have, basically, I'm assuming it's a constraint on the, on supply right now. Speaker 1 (18m 45s): Yeah. I mean, I, you know, everybody is out for industrial and they're continuing to increase their allocation. It's it's, you know, when we talk to clients, it's the first thing they always say is don't worry, we're going to increase our allocation to industrial really? Usually at the cost of office and retail. Well, not usually, always at the cost. No. Yeah. It, it, you know, that's, that's the other side of the coin, right? Is we saw 6% rent growth so far in 2021, we can be concerned about construction and market specific. If you look at like, you know, inland empire, for example. Yeah. There's a lot of construction or, you know, Las Vegas, for example, there's a decent amount of construction, but at the same time, the amount of demand that we're seeing come in and given it's a structural shifts, it means that you could, you should expect continued demand. That being said, we're getting to a point where cap rates are going to struggle. Maybe a little bit to continue to decline. Speaker 0 (19m 45s): I was going to say, it's for reminds me like economics 1 0 1. We're like, no, that the shift it's the whole demand curve moving, not just going up along, right? Like there's a, there's an innovation here. There's, there's a structural shift to less retail and more, more industrial distribution. Speaker 1 (20m 0s): I was actually trying to the other day to think of a, a good comparison. And I think we landed on radio for retail retail's radio where it it's still gonna have a use, but it's not the same use that it used to have an industrials TV now, the television. Cool. That's the entertainment. Yeah. Speaker 0 (20m 22s): So where does, where does vaulty Rez line up with that? If we, if we go to multi Rez, which you have to think that, you know, prior to the pandemic, we were like, can cap rates keep going down? And then they kept going down. And even right now, buoyed by I'm sure interest rates are multi-res team. I think, did their, did their had a banner year for 2020, like a record year for them? Speaker 1 (20m 46s): Yeah, we we've hearing that a lot is that, you know, 20, 20 and now 2021 in particular, it's been a great year. 2021 saw the largest increase in rent we've ever seen quarters for Q3. So we just finished up two, three, we're still finalizing the results, but shaping up that Q2 Q3 and Q1 of 2021 are the top three years in terms of demand for multi-family. And it, you know, that's across the board. However, if you start breaking it down by markets, the south in particular is really, really very strong. I mean, I'm going to keep harping on myself just because it is as strong as it is, but you know, multi-family is price per unit has gone up by 30% compared to pre-recession averages in Sunbelt markets rents in, like, for example, Austin increased by 15%, six months, you get, you kind of become to begin to become worried more about affordability than anything else, which is at some point, this becomes a economic macro economic problem, which of course then comes back to haunt investors. You know, a lot of that gain has already happened and really have seen a deceleration, which you would expect given seasonal trends in multi-family. And, you know, in some of these markets, you really are beginning to hit the, the affordability limit. And that's where you can start making a great argument for like, for manufactured homes or for mobile home parks. For example, particularly in the south, the Southern states, they don't work as well in the Northern states. I would argue at least mobile home parks. Speaker 0 (22m 27s): Yeah. Neither up here. Speaker 1 (22m 30s): It gets a little chilly. I know, but it's, multi-family has done, has probably been the outperformer, which, you know, given all the news around how well single-family pricing has done is isn't that surprising. And if you, if you look at single family, a single family price growth compared to multi-family rent growth, single family price growth in almost every single market has grown faster. So it's not like your, your other options is getting any easier to, to afford. Speaker 0 (23m 8s): Yeah. And in terms of like your outlook on this, in terms of the actual properties themselves, like, are we finding that in these markets that there are underperforming assets that are now being utilized to their, to their, you know, market rents, you know, value, add deals. Do you think that is what's happening in a lot of these markets? Or do you think that the pressure of lower interest rates is, is what's fueling most of, most of the acquisition in, in multifamily being an asset class that's pretty much being subsidized or was subsidized for the last year, year and a half by the government in most in countries. Speaker 1 (23m 46s): Yeah. I mean, that's a huge part of it. And then on top of that, I think lower interest rates is extremely helpful for multi-family acquisitions. You know, part of it is it, some of it has to be just the inflation hedge that you'd get for multi-family. If, if you were to all concerned about inflation and you want to look in real estate multi-family is probably your best bet just given. And we can talk about this at some point, just given the short lease term is, but the, the eviction moratorium also, at least in our opinion, has had a pretty big effect on multifamily demand because on one end, you're, you know, you are seeing a huge spike in terms of demand, but then we kind of scratch our heads at it for a while. But then if you think about it, we weren't evicting anybody. There's 800,000 evictions in the U S per year. I don't know what it is for Canada. That's 800,000 units that aren't going, that aren't in negative demand. We aren't, we aren't building, you know, these, these class C units were, if we're building anything, it's, it's a class, a, a, that's the only thing you can really afford to build right now that will, that will pencil. So, you know, people are, people are basically sitting in their home, sitting on their apartments, they're unwilling to move. So we aren't seeing that, that negative demand. And on the other, the other side, we're seeing a huge uptick in people separating how tools, if you're, let's say you're a 22 year old kid and you you're living with four roommates, we're seeing people decouple those households and begin to move out into their own places. All of that kind of leads to these, this huge spike in, in multi-family. Speaker 0 (25m 36s): Yeah, I guess the real question, like you said before, it's, it's the affordability aspect you have, like you said, 30% increase, I think in evaluation, but 15% increase in rental rates. And there is, there is a certain level where, you know, you, you just hit a, you hit a wall in terms of affordability from the, from the consumer point of view. Speaker 1 (25m 56s): Yeah. I think it's, it's going to have, it was a concern even before the pandemic was, you know, a home affordability shelter affordability, and it certainly did not get better. Speaker 0 (26m 8s): And on the construction end, you, you, you mentioned class a, are you seen quite a bit of construction on the multi-family side? Generally, Speaker 1 (26m 14s): It's pretty, it's pretty much in line with the last couple of years, to be honest with you, which was pretty significant. But on the other end, we saw a huge amounts of construction delays even before the pandemic. And it, it kind of acted as this filter for, for supply being added, frankly, especially, especially down south where there's huge amounts of demand, there's huge amounts of supply waiting to be added. But at th at the same time, they just can't get it out. Whether it be supply costs, labor is certainly a problem. Anybody and anybody who's trying to build multi-family right now has told me that labor is almost impossible to find at this point. Yeah. Speaker 0 (26m 51s): I mean, just even on the small scale or we're doing projects in our area, it's, it is extremely slow. And, you know, you talk to anybody in the construction industry. They'll, they'll tell you the same thing right now. Not just supplies, but labor as well. If we shift over to, to that piece on inflation, it's been a hot topic in terms of ink spilled. I'm sure it was one of those things that, yeah, the over the last little while there's been enough fuss bulled over on, on the inflation side, what's your view from the data that you guys are seeing? Speaker 1 (27m 25s): Yeah. I, I take the view that I am in agreement with the bond market and the fed that it is transitory. I think the definition of transitory has been changing pretty significantly because at first I think it was six months and now it's probably going to be a little bit longer than that. Kind of where I begin to split a little bit from the fed at least, is that it's inflation is likely to be higher for longer. I don't think it's going to be quite as high as it has been. A lot of that. A lot of the reasons it's been high currently, it has a lot more to do with the pandemic and kind of short-term factors. You know, you can think about shortages and chips. You can think about shortages and car parts, for example, or appliances, as well as transportation demand, which should burn itself off and on top of the stimulus. But the fed changed how it does it targets inflation. And I think it really went under reported. I think a lot, it, it didn't really make as much noise as it should have because what they're essentially doing now is they're saying, okay, we need to make up for really chronically low inflation in the, the last cycle. So we're going to allow inflation to run hot, to get the labor market gains that we saw at the end of the last cycle. Because if you look at between 2018 and 2020, the federal site statistics around minority wage gains, for example, it didn't really begin to appear until the economy was basically at full employment. What that three, 3.5, 3.4% unemployment rate. They want to see that again, that's Jerome Powell has basically explicitly stated that that's what they're looking for. That being said, the fed has begun to sound a little bit more hawkish. Cause I think they, I know they were taken by surprise by the how high inflation got, and they're, they're likely going to raise rates by the end of next year. All of that said, I, I still believe the fed is willing to let inflation run above that 2% mark for the next couple of years. Speaker 0 (29m 30s): So for those that don't know what you're referring to in terms of the under-reporting is the fact that they've, they've broken off of the, the, what they used to be the 2% target, is that right? Speaker 1 (29m 40s): Yeah, I, yeah. I mean, I was in colleges, every continent was, you know, they target 2%, they adjust rates based off of that. That's obviously a little more complicated than that, but now they're targeting a longer term inflation average of 2%. And because inflation from 2010 to 2019 ran between, you know, according to their measure of inflation PC around between 1.5 and 1.8% for most of that, they view allowing it to run from two to 3% as making up for some of that loss, those loss pricing increases over the last cycle. Speaker 0 (30m 15s): So in terms of, from the investor perspective, if your outlook as to how that informs your decisions from a real estate point of view, you know, what does, what does that leave us with in terms of the discussion that we've had even today in terms of the different asset classes and how you view economic decisions and investment decisions? Speaker 1 (30m 35s): Yeah, I mean, look, inflation is here to stay at, which is actually fair, especially since it's not, you know, hyperinflation I, where the fed is going to be forced to raise rates quickly. Hopefully, you know, it's actually good news for real estate. Real estate is a real asset, you know, I'm sure, you know, everybody, every economist has said this at some point, you know, real estate is a real asset. It, it benefits from a real value gains and holding real value, which means that in an inflationary environment, commercial real estate itself is a good play within those property types. There are some that are better than others, especially if you're unsure of how stable and the inflation rate is going to be the shorter, the lease term, especially in a higher demand property types that, you know, you can think about industrial or especially multi-family, it means you can adjust your, your rent increases to match inflation. If you look at, and we've seen this actually in the market, if you look at NOI gains real NOI gains from Nate grieve since 1990, there was only two real periods of actual real NOI gains from the nineties to the, from early nineties to the late nineties and from 2010 to 2015. Other than that, if you deflate real and alive for multi-family, it's basically flat, which, which essentially means that NOI is just, is, is working as an inflation hedge. You get the same real return year after year. That that makes multi-family really attractive. Industrial actually has not done that well, based on that same measure up until very recently. Speaker 0 (32m 12s): Yeah. I liked the idea. I was always told by a mentor of mine there where, you know, real estate is one of those few industries investment that you can download inflation to your, to your customer, you know, pretty much one for one. Speaker 1 (32m 27s): Yeah, you can, it, it is extremely easy to just pass on that inflation to the investor, unlike pretty much any other asset class. I mean, if you think about bonds, for example, you can't do that for the most part. You just, you know, if you invest in a bond, you you're losing real value every, every coupon payment. Speaker 0 (32m 44s): Yeah. And I th and I think to your point earlier where you have those shorter terms with multifamily, it's obviously easier to do, but I was just reading a lease yesterday that was kind of the old school lease where the, it was over 10 years, but the, the bump ups, the step-ups and rent were basically the CP attached to a CPI inflator. So we haven't seen those as much, usually landlords, if anything, at least prior to the pandemic, they would just say, okay, it's, you know, 10 bucks a square foot now 12 bucks 14. And usually that would be more than inflation, but they have some mechanism in there. Speaker 1 (33m 17s): Yeah. Well, I was going to say, the other thing landlords might want to start thinking about is, is indexing it to inflation and that's, that's actually the great part. I mean, that's why we target a specific inflation rate is because then you can make these easy decisions. I know inflation is going to be 2%, it's a very stiff assumption. So, you know, we can, we can just assume a 2% going forward. Now you have to start thinking about, okay, is it, you know, is it going to go, you're making a bet. Is inflation going to be long-term? Is this higher inflation could be long-term or is it going to come back down? How much is it going to come back down? It's really difficult. And while it does sound really nice to indexed, to inflation, if you're an office, a landlord right now, I think you struggle a little bit because you don't have the negotiating power necessarily that you did two years ago. Speaker 0 (34m 5s): Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of, so in terms of that, how that view informs the interest rate discussion, the way that, you know, the fed will respond, if, you know, if employment is higher than, or full employment, or if changes in inflation that, that they're measuring, how, how do you see that impacting the interest rate decisions? Speaker 1 (34m 27s): Yeah, so I, I I'm, I think I'm in the minority here, at least in terms of the broader economics where I really don't see interest rates increasing significantly. And I know that's a really economist answer to touching it a little bit, but I don't see interest rates hedging or increasing significantly because one of what the feds, the fed said about how they're going to react to inflation, they said, they're willing to let inflation run hot. They care more about the labor market gains right now on that needs us more liquidity in the system for longer, which, you know, can go only a few places. It can, it can drive. And we have seen equity increase by multiples. And then the only other place we can go really is bonds for, you know, those multi-trillion dollar that multi-trillion dollar liquidity pool we have right now. I mean, it's at the point where the banks just basically don't know where to put the money. All of that, to me suggests a, you know, short, you know, lower interest rates on top of that. If you think about the demographic factors that are affecting the United States, you know, slower demographic growth going forward, that's not going to change. That's baked in effectively. Unless people begin to move here in a mass on top of technological change, you know, you would expect to see more automation going forward. I think it's coming faster than a lot of people like to acknowledge that pushes down prices, which then pushes down interest rates. And I know globalization is no longer it, maybe isn't moving forward as quickly or as moving forward at all. But globalization still means a lower interest rate environment. You know, the fed in 2018, tried to push interest rates to 2.5% and ran into huge liquidity problems in the market. There isn't there, they don't and they view, and this is their view. They don't view the neutral interest rate as much higher than rate where they're no longer stimulating nor creating drag on the economy is much higher than two or two and a half percent. So all of that, to me suggests maybe slightly higher interest rates from what was the tenure at. At one point I, you know, 50, 50 basis points, but maybe not, it's probably gonna be lower than it was before, before the pandemic. Speaker 0 (36m 45s): Would there be something that would change that view for you or, or a few factors that would change that view for you in terms of where interest rates could go? Cause, I mean, that's usually the big thing where a lot of people say, oh, if inflation is going in this direction, interest rates have to, you know, come up to that, you know, come up as a result of that. But yeah, what are, what are, what are some factors that may, may kind of give you pause to, to think it might go the other way or at least increase over what you're, what you're talking about? Speaker 1 (37m 13s): That's a great question. And, you know, as inflation has continued to stay high, it's been something I've been thinking more and more about, but the, you know, inflation first and foremost above all else, if inflation gets out of hand, it, it becomes a inflation spiral. That's when I think, you know, you'll begin to see interest rates really start to hike. The other, the other concern would be the fed. It depends on who Biden dominates next year for the fed. If we get someone who's hawkish, if we see you're going to see some more hawkish fed governors, I think that in a more hawkish fed chairman that could change my view on interest rates. And finally, we begin, we begin to S you know, removing chewy really begins to drain liquidity faster than I thought it would. No we're right now, we are still buying billions of dollars of bonds every month. I don't expect removing QV would do that, but that could drive interest rates higher if the, if the market begins to react to, or begins to become concerned about liquidity in the us, into global bond markets. Right. I, I sh I should mention real quick that also there are wars and pandemics that I can't predict. I learned that last year. Speaker 0 (38m 40s): Yeah. That was a, it was, I remember two, two or three years ago. And I won't say who the company was, but, you know, I remember it was couched almost as a joke, you know, barring any geopolitical disputes or a global pandemic. And I was like, oh my God. But yeah, those are always the things you're like, you know, there's these extra exogenous factors that you're not going to be able to, to forecast these black swans. So I guess the, you know, from the real estate perspective, that's a good overview of where we're at today in terms of the different asset classes. And we're, you know, the view of the economy is just want to be mindful of your time. Joseph, we have four questions. We ask everybody before we, we end the episode. So if you're okay with that, we'll kick it off. Speaker 1 (39m 25s): Absolutely. Speaker 0 (39m 26s): What's something, you know, now in your career, you wish you knew when you started. Speaker 1 (39m 32s): That's a great question that it's okay to be wrong and it's okay to make a mistake. I think I was, at least at the beginning of my career was a little more concerned about mistakes and being wrong. If you're, if you're an economist, if you work in economics, you know, if you work in real estate and you're trying to forecast trends, you're, you're going to be wrong and that's okay. It's just, just, don't be wrong. You just learn from the mistake. Don't make the same mistake twice, twice, I think is what I needed to learn as opposed to you have to be right the first time. Speaker 0 (40m 1s): Yeah. It's all always lies. I camera it was like Truman or something that said, ah, give me a one-handed economist. Everyone says on the, on one hand, on the other hand, but yeah. I Speaker 1 (40m 11s): Mean, I'm certainly, I'm certainly guilty of that Speaker 0 (40m 15s): While you want to be precise with your answers in terms of mentorship, what would you tell younger people coming into the industry or your views of mentorship in general? Speaker 1 (40m 25s): Oh, I would not be where I am without mentors. I think it's so important to talk to people who that are in a place that you want to be, or are doing things that you want to do. I've had some fantastic mentors for both in real estate and in, in economics before, before I worked in commercial real estate, I was working in banking regulation. I was thinking regulation research, I suppose I worked with some fantastic economists that taught me everything I knew, including, you know, my, my advisor in college. I, I, you know, like find someone that you think is worthwhile to talk to and then just bug them. I think I was my first job. I was in the chief economist office, every opportunity I could just asking questions, being curious, trying to learn as much as I could cause that, and it's, it's paid dividends for me. Speaker 0 (41m 25s): Awesome. Are there any recommendations you could give a book recommendations, podcasts, I guess, with the spirit of this conversation, maybe in real estate or economics? Yeah. Speaker 1 (41m 34s): There's, that's not a good question. There's two, there's two, there's two that I, one that I love just for all time, which is thinking fast and slow by data economy, which, you know, I, I like to think that I don't necessarily subscribe to the, the basic, the, what a lot of mainstream economists think about in terms of models. I think there's more to it than that. And David Kahneman does a really good job of breaking down how people think and how that relates to economics. Fantastic book. It's a really interesting read, even if you're not an economist and the other one is the rise and fall of economic of us economic growth. I believe it's, I'm reading it right now. So I should know the name. Speaker 0 (42m 17s): Yeah. We'll put a link. I think I know the one, the one you're talking about, Speaker 1 (42m 23s): I, you know, the first economist I worked under was an economic historian. So he instilled that interest in me. And it basically shows that, you know, the century from 1870 to 1970 was a period of unbelievable technological change and economic growth. And I it's really fascinating and it informs a lot of what I think will happen going forward in terms of slower, you know, slower but steady economic growth. We're not going to see those four to 5% GDP gains without, you know, huge amounts of stimulus anymore. And it was good. Speaker 0 (42m 54s): Yeah. I have a, if it's Robert Gordon, is that a that's right? Yep. Okay. We'll put it. Speaker 1 (43m 0s): I think it's a fantastic book. I really like it. If you liked economics, I would suggest that it's. Speaker 0 (43m 6s): Yeah, no, it's, it's one of those things where I w was interested in reading, but unless you get like a recommendation, sometimes you go down a rabbit hole, but the Conaman that's I think, correct me if I'm wrong. I think Conaman was the first non economist to win the Nobel prize in economics. Speaker 1 (43m 23s): Yeah. He was a psychologist and I it's, it's a lot about how the brain thinks and makes decisions and you know, it really attacks that idea of rationality and really looks at why people actually make decisions. It's, it's a great book. It really changed how I thought about, you know, economic modeling and where I work, how we, how markets work. Speaker 0 (43m 45s): Very cool. We'll put a link to both last question. First car, make and model. Speaker 1 (43m 51s): Oh, I had a 2004, a Honda accord, which is it. And it was, it had a bigger engine than it was supposed to have, which was great because if you've ever driven in Massachusetts, all of the on-ramps are about five feet long, so you have to really gun it. And so that was a fantastic car. I missed that car still. I would rather drive that than when I'm driving now. Speaker 0 (44m 20s): Right on. I feel like a lot of engines were stuffed into those older Accords and civics, Joseph, for people to connect with you or a, you know, anything related to the information or data you do with CoStar work and they reach out, Speaker 1 (44m 34s): Yeah, we have a website, I'll send it to you for blankets, CoStar advisory. You know, you can always find me. I write a lot of articles for the website, so you'll see me on CoStar, if you have it, which I would suggest otherwise, you know, just I'm on LinkedIn. Speaker 0 (44m 54s): My guest today has been Joseph Biassi Joseph. Thanks for being part of working capital. Speaker 1 (44m 59s): Thank you for having me. Speaker 0 (45m 10s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse, for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Y'all, this episode is so long. If you start it on a Wednesday, you won't finish it until that same Wednesday, but like two hours later. Crazy, right? Anyways, in this show, the fellas argue about Kill Team, Dan talks about his big win in the Big Easy, and everyone loses their shit over Grimaldus, but can they really be blamed for that last one? No jury would convict! https://twitter.com/DB_Sleazy https://twitter.com/BrotherSRM https://www.patreon.com/40kBadcast https://shop.spreadshirt.com/40kBadcast/ contact@40kbadcast.com https://www.facebook.com/40kBadcast/

Please Like & Subscribe! Fleurs Truly w/hosts Tina Howell & Jeff Maumus Reviewing Saints Win, Statement Game in Seattle, DL Concerns, Festivals Update_____________________________________________________Please Follow Tina & Jeff!: Twitter:Tina Howell: https://twitter.com/TheNolaGirlJeff Maumus: https://twitter.com/TheNolaRollaInstagram: Tina Howell: https://www.instagram.com/thenolagirl/?hl=enJeff Maumus: https://www.instagram.com/jcmaumu1/?hl=enSpreaker Podcast Site: -Fleurs Truly (A New Orleans based podcast which celebrates the sports, food & culture of NOLA. Hosted by Tina Howell & Jeff Maumus): https://www.spreaker.com/show/fleurs-...-Main site for all of the sports & entertainment podcasts on the Jampa Media Network: https://www.spreaker.com/user/10814098_______________________________________

Listener request from Jessamynn Little. Just a peek into some of the more popular ghosts that roam through New Orleans, Louisiana. If you are loving the episodes that Bag of Bones brings you every week, please consider helping this podcast and it's traveling author by supporting our sponsors.  Just click the links and share your support!  And thank you from Bag of Bones and Elizabeth Bourgeret!    Damsel in Defense- http://www.mydamselpro.net/BONES/  Lume- https://lumedeodorant.com/pages/lume-for-everyone?CJEVENT=9b8a25f4da6a11eb81ae01050a82b82a&utm_source=cj&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=100428712&utm_term=14320755  #bagofbonespodcast #elizabethbourgeret  To get in touch with Elizabeth: www.elizabethbourgeret.com/contact  For more episodes, visit The Ragtag Network!  Check out our merch: https://www.ragtagnetwork.com/merch 

Paul D'Orleans is a writer, historian, filmmaker, curator and the founder of The Vintagent,a wildly successful online cultural repository of the history, lore, personalities and ephemera of motorcycling. In this episode Paul talks about his lifetime journey of motorcycle obsession and the machines and experiences along the way. SUPPORT THE POD:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hpheritageSUPPORT OUR SPONSOR:https://www.modelcitizendiecast.comVISIT THE VINTAGENT AT:https://thevintagent.comFind Horsepower Heritage on the web:https://horsepowerheritage.comInstagram:@horsepowerheritage

The Cowsills are back! The last episode may have been released just one week ago, but Bob, Susan, and Paul have been on the road performing in the Happy Together Tour all throughout August. This weeks' episode is their debut back on the airways. The trio start off with some stories from the road and your favorite segment, Paul Puffer Fish.Their guest this week is John Hall of the rock band Orleans. John Hall was a child prodigy -- studying piano at 5, playing French horn, guitar bass and drums by 12. He started playing in the clubs of Georgetown and Greenwich Village by 18, recording an album for MGM and then another for Columbia. At 21 he wrote and directed music for both Broadway and off-Broadway. He has seen great success over the years and is a real treat to have on the show.John shared the origin of the name Orleans, what to expect in the future, and more.Song of the Week: Still the One by Orleans

Earl Klugh, Orleans, and kick your feet up.

0:00:00 - Introduction: Welcome Jake, the Casual Gamer0:06:32 - This Week's Game Night: Americanish, Fresh Fish, Terraforming Mars0:13:44 - This Week's News: Asmodee for sale; Oceans Digital Game; Artisans of Splendent Vale kickstarter; Total War: Rome; Masters of the Universe: Clash for Eternia; In-Flight 2021.0:34:08 - Games on the Brain: College Games to Break the Ice - Codenames, Just One, The Crew, Tichu, Avalon, The Mind, Lost Cities, Wavelength0:42:05 - Review of Paris1:05:22 - Iconic Examples of Game Mechanisms: Worker Placement - Everdell, Viticulture, Agricola; Card Drafting - Seven Wonders, Citadels, Taj Mahal; Set Collection - Ra, Lost Cities, Bohnanza; Area Majority - Carcassonne, El Grande, Ethnos; Cooperative - The Crew, Pandemic, Magic Maze; Deck Building - Dominion, Orleans, Taverns of Tiefenthal; Network and Route Building - Power Grid, Babylonia, Kingdom Builder; Auction/Bidding - Modern Art, Princes of Florence, Ra; 1:40:14 - Board Game Sommelier - Age of Steam, 18XX, Power Grid, Taj Mahal, Cavum1:48:06 - Sign Off

People come from all over the Northeast Kingdom to watch the demolition derby at the Orleans County Fair in Barton. This year, independent producer Erica Heilman stopped by to watch, and talk with some of the participants.

Andreas Odendahl. We talk about growing up pin Germany, being a carer and his love of animals...but which games did he choose? Support the show here:http://patreon.com/5g4d   Race for the Galaxy: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/28143/race-galaxy Underwater Cities: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/247763/underwater-cities Lost Ruins of Arnak: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/312484/lost-ruins-arnak Everdell: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/199792/everdell Orleans: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/164928/orleans    

When it comes to fall birding hotspots around here, the best of the best places tend to fall somewhere between “difficult” and “you've got to be kidding me” in terms of their accessibility. These include South Monomoy, Cuttyhunk, Race Point, the Gay Head Cliffs of Aquinnah, and Pochet Island in Orleans.

What happens when you cast Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc, take away her combat finesse she displayed in the Resident Evil series, but have her embody the fringe historical theory that the Maid of Orleans did not follow God's orders to liberate France but was actually a schizophrenic? Why 1999's the Messenger, of course! Guest Steve Guerra joins Scott to discuss the few accuracies and many inaccuracies of this film (and yes, there are flaming arrows).

Hurricanes and pandemics - sounds like the latest headlines. But it's a dystopian novel by Sherri L. Smith called Orleans. Readers from the Benjamin D. Foulois Creative and Performing Arts Academy in Maryland discuss the book with host Kitty Felde and talk about why dystopian novels are so popular with young readers. Public radio journalist Cheryl Devall is celebrity reader. More episodes at bookclubforkids.org

Candidates for Orleans Criminal Sheriffs race answer questions from Voters East Of The Industrial Canal.

Quest Skinner is an artist who is always striving to find new ways to make her artwork break away the emotional blockade between artists and buyers. As a mixed-media artist, teacher and community activist. Quest is influenced by the energy of cityscapes, music and the personalities she encounters every day. Then, in her studio, she brings them into her world; a world that takes raw feelings, vibrations and various moments in our lives then captures them with flowing pigments. Quest's artwork tells a story that changes with every person who sees her work. Working with different traditional and non-traditional mediums, her fluid and always interchanging style of work keeps patrons coming back to explore the world through Quest's eyes. Read more about Quest Skinner. Learn more about The Passionistas Project. Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Quest Skinner, an artist who is always striving to find new ways to make her artwork break away the emotional blockade between artists and buyers. As a mixed-media artist, teacher and community activist. Quest is influenced by the energy of cityscapes, music and the personalities she encounters every day. Then, in her studio, she brings them into her world; a world that takes raw feelings, vibrations and various moments in our lives then captures them with flowing pigments. Quest's artwork tells a story that changes with every person who sees her work. Working with different traditional and non-traditional mediums, her fluid and always interchanging style of work keeps patrons coming back to explore the world through Quest's eyes. So please welcome to the show, Quest Skinner. Quest: Thank you guys for having me. Passionistas: What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Quest: I think as I get older, staying honest and true to self. Over the years, you know, we compromise just a little and sometimes it really will take one moment and make it eternal. I just want to make sure that I stay true to self and vibe and keep my, my spirit in life and love. It's so easy to get knocked off of your posts when things aren't always, or don't appear to be what you want or aren't in focus in that moment. So staying focused. Passionistas: Let's take a step back. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up and your childhood. And, um, in particular, where did your name come from? Quest: Childhood is one of those sensitive issues with me. I think like anybody who really creates and put your heart in your blood and your mind into it, it's got to come out of something. And I look at my childhood coming out of Pittsburgh, a little like a coal miner's daughter. I was, I learned how to sew. I learned how to hunt. I learned how to fish. I learned how to live organic and be a part of everything around me. And then I also learned we're fine. And I learned how to dress and walk the part and go to Bible school. And you know, this, I went to Colfax Elementary School, so a little Jewish elementary school, and I learned the world from being in a microcosm that was so filled with culture. The one thing I can say is those mountain cities, like the one that I moved to now, Seattle, they're filled with so much art, so much culture vibing communities that in the worst of times, really make the most intricate and extreme and brilliant thought process manifest out of nothing. So, yeah, Pittsburgh, that was part of it. And then about 16. And after my 16th birthday, my mother kind of packed me up and said, we're moving Arizona. And I went from mountains to Val. And it was very amazing. I got really interconnected with, um, one of my cousins and she's just a spirit of fire and life and by vivacious. And here we both are at 43 and we are alive. I think it all comes from being, being in, in extreme different environments and not really knowing what I was getting into, but being a part of that environment made emoted and really created this like international, global little phenomenon spirit. It was everybody to go a little bit deeper into it. How did I even get my name? I was in high school and I had to write a paper. It was like one of those graduating papers, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember choosing to write it about two sisters, one Simplicity, and the other one was Quest. And Simplicity was everything that a parent would want, calm, chill, responsible, this, that, and a third. And Quest was everything that everybody should want to be — free, expressive, full of love, sexy, but not sexual, sensual, but not offensive like me. And I realized in that moment that that is who I would always be. And it wasn't so much, like, I think when we think of artists choosing names, we don't look at the history of the country and look at the tribes always. We didn't really name. We didn't look at it as naming. People, pick their names, their souls were picked upon these growth and developments. So to just adjust to my original into who I am now, the name just gave it gravity. Passionistas: What is your cultural heritage? What's your ancestry. And how does that kind of impact the path year one? Quest: So how about this love life. Had a little had that I'm about to turn 40 nervous breakdown and made everybody kind of like dig in and do the genealogy by records. And our family is actually a Cherokee, Iroquois, uh, Choctaw, Chickasaw, uh, Shinnecock, uh, and Piscataway natives. You know, you think about it over time in 500 years. It's so beautiful that maybe not all the tribes got together, but they created together this gorgeous entity and being so, you know, that's why, where my head dress and that's how even Burning Man found me. And it was funny to me, when presented with all these great minds from around the world. And I'm like, yeah, I'm a black native. You know, I'm a native American. We came in on hues. And they're looking at me and they're like, why aren't you mad? I'm like, man, this is so big. It's so deep. It's bigger than even me. Right. But this is the story that has to be told so that we can heal. There's a reason why it was called the melting pot. We had every color, we had every spectrum and we always have. And when we go back to loving all of our unique ancestry and our, and our spirit, and we can begin to know who we really are, then we set ourselves free. Passionistas: So let's talk about you getting into art. Were you always an artist? Quest: I think I was, I think from the little tie dye shorts when I was a kid and the first time I kind of got a hold of a bottle of bleach and understood that I could take my genes and create and alter something else out. Uh, I made bandanas a little hint. Here's scrunchies for kids in elementary school. Like so poetry, you know, in high school and toured what's up with people. I think I always was this, but it's when we find our art forms. It's when we find our medium or maybe I should say when they find us, when we have exposed ourself enough that we can be a channel and a conduit and really pick up as a vessel, all the possibilities. I think I always was an artist, but I remember my first art show. So funny. I remember I'm in DC. I'm having this, like, you know, gotta come through big. I've got an art shit right now. Just have one. I get to, so my first opening night, I got two shows. I'm bouncing from here, running down the street to the next one. And I remember my parents coming and my stepfather looked at me and he. That's what you are. You're an art. Okay. We can take it from there because we didn't know what you were going to be because you can be anything. So that's what you are. You're an artist. And I looked at him and I said, for sure, and always, and now I get it like two decades later, massive amount of pieces done, you know, and, and created. And somehow to be able to create. 13,000 pieces, but it's so hard for some people to pull them all together and see them as one beam, because there's so many different styles and, and I just, I would get tired. I would get bored of something. I don't want to think the same little lady all day long. I refuse. And it got to the point where I would tell clients when I'm done with the color it stuck. When red is over, red is dead. When it's time for green. That's right. When it's blue will be true, but when it's over, you will not ask me again for this painting. I think that that one move is what saved my psyche. Cause I had payment this Africa lady, so cute. God, I still leverage it as day, but I had a dozen women try to get me to paint this painting over and over again. And insanity is doing the same thing over and over again. Passionistas: How did you take that moment? And what, where did your art go from there? If you can do anything, how do you, how do you channel, um, what your inspiration is into the right piece of art? Quest: I wish I had that formula. I wish I could literally sit back and go, oh, this is what makes it. Honestly, I think it's like my neighbor who knocked on a door earlier. It's just having those spirits randomly come through who I'm working on something and they just go, you know what I was thinking? And it amplified being open really, I think creates better pieces. As I get older, I wanted to worry about creating a perfect circle. Right. That's the ultimate like something so simple. But to be able to do a complete circle is a sign of a very ingenious individual. So how much time do you spend trying to do a perfect circle before you realized you could have just removed everything else around it and made it perfect. And it would have been a circle tip. Right? So I got to a point where I don't tell my work what to do it doesn't tell me what. I, I literally go in there and have fun smoke a Chile, listen to some Isley brothers or some really good music, maybe Shaka Khan. If I'm having a low day, I want to hear that. Tell me something good. I'm going to have some fun, like, but this was meant to be fun. It wasn't meant to break me down and worry about anything. It wasn't something that I chose so that I lost sight of like a beautiful sunny day and getting out there and enjoying it. It was something that I picked because it was cathartic, it was loving. And it allowed me to heal people that I love. They literally, even in like the worst times going through the pandemic, I would occasionally get like little emails and texts that said, like, just being here with my piece of art. I've made it like my little cuddle corner. It's where I'm finding my safe space. And that was the goal that when we have to go into our homes or go into our deeper selves, you have these totems around you to live your spirit and to carry you on to make you move forward, to think of yourself in that higher light. So when you flow like that, do you get to tell God what's. No. Okay. Do you get to tell angels how to like bless you? No. Okay. So art doesn't get to, I don't get to tell arc what to do. I'm lucky to be in a presence and to be a vessel up. And I seem like that defeats a lot of artists trying to found something that is endless and boundless without you in beautiful. And you're just here to transcribe for the audience. Nobody worries about the little lady in the, in the courtroom who actually puts all the words down forever. But in hindsight, she's the most important person because most people will be lost with her emotions instead of following a stenographer and understanding her words are creating the whole play out of everything that has happened in front of us. When we lose sight of that. So in sense, maybe I'm just that little humble stenographer for, in a corner, just typing away on the keys and nobody paying attention. Other jobs. I've had people go, that's your job. You're a flight attendant. I walk in the room as an artist and people are looking at those, you did that. Yeah. Yeah. I built that thing and it's like two stories high, in my apartment. Passionistas: You create in many different mediums, in many different styles. You say you don't want to create the same piece twice. But is there a, is there a common thread if you had to describe your style to somebody, what would you say? Quest: Regrounding, elegance, alchemy magic, fun, free, cocoa, sexy diva. And that's just what I get to live in and bring out of me and drop on a world. But I realized like my cocoa divas are my cream divas and my golden girls, and they are everybody in between. And there is no spectrum on it. It's a, it's a spirit on it. So I think I create for us as divine, feminine, as placed in a little zones where we can go. Like you see the pieces. We can go and smoke a cigarette over by miracle mile in Chicago, if we need to, or go ahead and like, you know, become warriors and battle dragons. But whatever it is when I was growing up, little girls had Barbies. And that was like the rate of our consciousness. Right? Little miss Barbie. And I love her. She got more adventurous and stuff, but she didn't always equate all of them. And the brush gives me what it, what it wants and the space and the canvas or the boards, they give me what they can bear. So some of the time, my little divas off might be pencil thin and other times they might be thick as rockstars and look like they go kick down a door and I love that. Like it is every woman and as somebody who's been 240 pounds to 150 pounds. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I'm all of them. We go through so many stages in our life. We deserve to have little, little dolls that really do fit all of us. We deserve to have gorgeous little warriors that still in our heart note, if they're going to, like, after the war is over, go sit under those, some underneath the bullet bath and read books with kids. We still have to be the mother, the warrior, the festival, the nurturer that everything. But we, we need more variety in our attitude about how we accept that. You know, we're not every little girl wants to wear the little tube, pink release, gargle nights. Some of them want to put on her little Carhartts and go out and get sustainable and ground themselves. And they don't want to be considered less because of how they, they find their, their, their speeds. Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Quest Skinner. To learn more about her art visit Quest Skinner dot com. If you are enjoying this interview and would like to help us to continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a Patron by visiting The Passionistas Project dot com backslash podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $1 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions. Now here's more of our interview with Quest. How did you get involved with burning man and what does that experience mean to you? Cause it seems like it's a very significant experience to people who are part of that movement. Quest: It's like when you say burning man, the first thing you got almost in your heart as welcome home. So that would have went. That's really what it was for the outgoing autodidact. Little little diva who pretty much speaks multiple languages has traveled the world, but always can be seen in one dimension, depending on the United States where I'm at. Right. I get there. Everybody's like, it's going to be different. You have an nymity, people will just let you be quests. And it's like, I walk on Playa, no anonymity rockstar. And from the moment I get there and it was. I at least found kids like myself who were still trapped in her older they're adults, but needed to run around in our moon boots and our little tidy whities and be free. One last time before the lights go out, I needed to be around other artists who love their work, but were afraid of the spotlight at the same time, too, because if you don't feel that anxiety and those butterflies, how do you, I know you're real. Like it burn. Okay. Going back. So, um, man, it's so crazy how my labs have always crisscrossed. Right? So my neighbor across the hallway, his name is Jr. Rest nexus. Um, we go to burning man together. He had been a burn a couple of times before we'll come in, show me the videos, the whole nine you're born with me next year. And I'm like, yeah. Okay. Well next year and he called me and I'm sitting in new Orleans. Getting ready to get on a flight. And he goes, what are you doing at the end of August? Beginning of September asset? I don't know. He says you want to go to Burning Man? And I put so many H-E and hockey sticks behind it and Y-E-SSSSSSS that I figured my heart was in it. So I ended up, um, getting ready to go to burning man announcing it at Eastern Market, finding out that I couldn't like, I, I. It was almost like blacklisted, right? It's like, you're going to, you're going to burning man. And you're leaving the fine art world of Eastern Market that you have been over here building, and you want to go party in the desert with people. And I'm like, no, I want to go to build art. I want to learn how to like be with the baddest engineers and see some of the most epic art pieces in a world. And that was my goal. When I started this. Just to see a life of art, where else in the world, can you go and see that much art and make a life out of it? So the whole thing with these star market, I remember calling one of my mentors for burn and he said, so, okay, most people lose their job coming back from burn. You lost your risk before you left. And I was like, he goes, so do you still want to go? And I said, If that's all they can do is try and stale me. Yeah, my dream I'm gone. I will always be able to make the artwork, sell the pieces, find a new fucking venue. And only when I come back, went back, talked to them, basically told them you guys have gone way too fucking far. We're looking at lost wages, restitutions and gag orders for the whole group. I think we should figure this out. Got my job back everything. Right? Like life was normal again. And I'm still on my way to Burning Man. I got to give them my ticket through BurningMan.org. They were looking to bring more people of color would project radical inclusion. And it was really, it was a, it was a blessing, not in disguise, announced in loud to be able to venture out. And when I got there realized. They were just as intrigued. And I think had spent just as much time learning about me, my art, my spirit, to make sure that I was a fit it's different when you're invited somewhere and people don't take the courtesy to understand who and what they're dealing with. I got pulled in with such, um, a nurturing spirit and I went from one camp my first year and I'm at the camp and everybody's like, Quest, it seems like you have a job. And I was like, yeah, I kind of do I'm working with foam camp and stuff and doing a front of house. And it was awesome. And they were like, you're the only person we know who came on vacation and picked up a job. I say, because even in my playland, I still got to have something to do with them. I'm not just going to be here on debaucherous is I'm damn near 40 and y'all some of y'all are my kids' age and I want to make sure you're safe. You know what I'm saying? It's not, it's not for me to go backwards. It's for me to go forward and be futuristic while forgiving those things that were backward in life. So end out on Playa. Next thing I know the next year, that camp, um, That I was working in front of the house with, I get called until you took one of the hardest jobs. And most people get yelled at screamed at the whole night and you just worked at, and we would love to have you mentioned your come out with us. So that relationship blossomed, I ended up doing costume, makeup, artistic design for them, direction shows with Alison and Alex Gray at Burning Man. It just was going home. Where, no more improving of yourself and what you can do, but in the right spirit in spaces where people were able to obtain, see, and you can grow and make these connections. So the following year, which would have been my third year, I got asked to have my artwork, artery in everywhere. And that is the heart of the Playa. That's where they put out all the artwork. And of course it's mind blowing. When some of the best artists in the world really do come up and, and go not, oh, I know you you're like for real, like, dude, you're, you're pretty decent. Like it's mind blowing and the pieces that they create with heart and salt, you know, I wish more people understood how artists truly do sacrifice and put everything in it to be able to have. Such a small glimmer on a window of opportunity to showcase and show like, you've got to love this thing. You got to love, like staying up, you know, like us, when I told you guys I'm up till five in the morning, this morning working on a mermaid, like, I'm sorry, I'm going to be 15 minutes late. You got to put it all in here. And sometimes you got to know like one thing may cost or, you know, go slightly undone because of, but it's worth it. Burn showed me. In a, in a whole nother capacity. Like I now know how to do plumbing. I know how to run solar panels. I know how to build an infrastructure in a middle of a desolate environment. I know how to help people who may not know how to help themselves. It almost is like being cute. Sparkly. By the time you pack up all your gear, your bags, your headlamps, all this, that. And the third, I feel every year, like I am almost like an itty bitty Marine worn out there in my tutus. And ready to go. Passionistas: Tell us about the commission, the mural you were commissioned to paint at The National Museum of Women in the Arts last year. Quest: During a pandemic after months. Um, you know, isolation, yeah, one of my best friends hit me up. Her daughter is my goddaughter, love her little like amazing lightning and a little yoga at nine years old, like best. And her mom calls me and she goes, babe, you know, we got to board up the museum and you know, I want to put one of your pieces up there. Would you be willing to do. And I was like, dude, okay. Yeah, actually I'll do it for you. What can I do? What should we do? And she said, it's all up to you. And I said, then I want to do Octavia Butler quotes. And we went drum and we picked some Octavia Butler quotes, and I just did the words and some little stencils and stuff on the side of the two doors. And while out there she walks up to me and goes, I need you to do one. Come around. It shows me the front of the women's museum. And I said, I know what to put there. I got it. I'm going to do it real quick and just need like two hours. So I put the woman with the headdress on and it said, um, in order for a Phoenix to rise, we must first burn. And that's the truth. Like we literally left one old world last year, one. Thousand year link and it was great, but it's over. And some things now must be put to Ash and sense to be able to rise to true potential. And a lot of that is people's fears and our hurt and our pain. And that was just one of my favorite pieces last year. And I started crying because when I think of the people that I love, they're the ones who will actually get me out to go. You know, to make these things into create these pieces don't fall. And Malani her name is Malani Douglas. I think that's who I would like you guys to work as your neck as my next Passionistas it's out there. Um, she's just an amazing spirit and her energy. We have been friends since we were in our twenties. When a great woman called her shoe, you get on a phone and you go to, and that's what, one of the greatest women that I know, and to be able to put that up at the Women's Museum, all of the women walking by, and then to see those who are indigenous people, black, indigenous Aboriginal Americans, who don't even know that. And go, we got a little Cherokee in us, or we got a little Choctaw in our family too, and it's like, we are, and I love you all for that. And to give you a total man for you to start seeing that it's a natural progression where we are, who we are, it just makes it all simpler. It makes it better. It was a fun piece. I really did enjoy doing that one, but more than anything, I just love doing it because Melanie. That's pretty hard. He's just like, when it comes to me doing pizza, she's like, dude, whatever you do, whatever you need, whatever you want to do, rock out so supportive. Passionistas: While you were doing that, the people walking by were part of the Black Lives Matter protests. Right? Quest: It was everything, you know, I'm down here and I'm realizing like you've got black lives matter. People walking by, you have people who are out of uniform, walking by who are down there, holding them back. It was so just pose because you have people who it was their job, and they did not want to be there. And you have people who were fighting for their lives. And that was now their new job in a pandemic. When your people have to come out and plead for civil civil rights, like plead for food for better education. Because now they understand that their children have been defeated for the last five and 10 and 15 years. When they, when they realize that they believed in something and they were looked down by their beliefs, it said to think that out of all the so-called, um, first world country, We had, uh, we had a 10th world approach. We left our children out there. We left our elderly out there. We left Black Lives Matter for sure. You know what I'm saying? But we left everybody last year. Scared, exhausted, fighting for love, fighting for rights. When in all honesty, it's almost appalling when you think of the other countries that literally. In your bank account tomorrow, you will wake up and there will be $10,000 or $20,000 because that's honestly, and we know because we have accountants, we have eco economists. We know this to survive for six months. As we're asking you to please stay home so we can keep you safe. You are workforce, you are our doctors. We need to lessen the burden on everybody. Last year. It was a perfect piece to put in front of everyone. Given a chance though. I would probably now put a mirror there and let people know that year was supposed to be for you to focus on reflect on and change yourself. What excuse can you have while watching someone's child shot dead in the middle of the street? What validity can you give me? What communication can you tell me is important over here? And if you can find that there is something perversed and sick with you, and we need to call it out. Like we are so geared to call out everyone's atrocities and offenses, but we won't call out the simple fact that this has been atrocious and offensive for just the global community outside the United States. I have to bear witness and watch every day. It's interesting. How many people, I think, lost focus of how much of an opportunity this was, you know, too, we did it smart. There would have been free classes. I'd have yarn, a Yale, Harvard, Duke, and. For everyone so that you can get skills trades, do physical therapy, be able to, you know, talk to counselors. We literally left a whole world almost abandoned and abated here without any guidance in any care. Passionistas: So what's your dream for the future for your little granddaughter and for your little goddaughter? When I was young, I used to say every morning when I woke up, God make me strong. Cause yesterday I was. I probably wasn't the best one in the world. And I know there are hundreds of little girls and then one day I realized after like worshiping and post covers, that were thousands of little girls looking up to me as great as she is the little girl who surpass it's me, that she stays elegant, refined, beautiful unapologetic about her spirit, her body, her mind operated. We opened the flood gates for every little girl where they can walk. And be safe and protected instead of disrespect, rejected and raped by people who were supposed to be there for them. I pray that she knows none of the pains in which I, as a woman have had to endure because we should be the last ones. I pray that she gets to walk on golden like bricks and, mm. Ever knows anything but joy for her. And I've told her that before and my goddaughter, my other goddaughter is coming to visit me this week. And you know, these were little girls who got dropped off by my stands by their parents. And some of them, their dads would just go, this is what a real black woman looks like in an entrepreneur. And they started their business. It's my other little goddaughter now she's in her twenties, 24, right? He came in and all my clients are in there and they're like, oh, we want to buy in advance the guys. She looked at me and she said, no, I'm buying a van. She said, that's where you pulled us to the side and made us women and made us go. People will not argue in public. You will not disrespect yourself or anybody else out here. We're going to figure this out. I will show you how to battle and be mad because people don't understand that you have a right and you shouldn't be picked with, I will show you how to protect yourself, but we will not disrespect us. I want them, I want them to constantly know that every woman was ever had to stand on her own for self up by the bootstraps, you know, put everything in a perspective. I did it not just for me. I did it for you because at 60, I do not want to be sitting in a room and somebody disrespect him again, lady. And at 60, I got to get up and go say something. These days should be in the buckets. If men do not know how to conduct themselves around women, you probably shouldn't work around. Period. If you do not know that you came from a woman, then you probably shouldn't have one period. If you can't get over the fact that not everybody was perfect. And half of the people didn't know what they were doing, you probably. I hope that we can give them everything, everything, every starring role, every center at a stage, I hope that she is Misty Copeland. I hope she has the presence of Lena Horne. I hope they're endowed with the greatest gifts of knowledge. I hope that thought and emo tap and everybody touched their grace from, from here on out. I want them to be able to live a full life and not die from exhaustion, racism, fear. I want her to know what it's like to be a human being and not marginalized by color or financials or this, that and the third. And if I get my way, I want to make sure they get a big coin before I go. Then when you got a nice little trust fund, one day. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Quest Skinner. To learn more about her art visit Quest Skinner dot com. Please visit The Passionistas Project dot com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women-owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Get a FREE mystery box with a one-year subscription with the code FALLMYSTERY. And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

I imagine that you have someone you know in Louisiana that's been impacted by Hurricane Ida. One of my closest friends mom's lives in Baton Rouge actually so I spent the weekend just watching The Weather Channel and praying for her safety and protection.There's so much coming down and maybe you feel like we do where it just seems like every day, there's something else in the news. So much so that we are without words and feel utterly powerful. It's so overwhelming to see the pictures as it's completely flooded. Over a million people right now are without power across the state of Louisiana. Even though there are a number of people from Texas heading over there to help out, we just wanted to pray with you as we encourage everyone to get involved whether that's physically, financially, and of course, prayerfully.

Neutral Ground Brewing Co. lets you have your cake and drink it, too Ft. Worth... Funkytown, a great place for a brewery.  Friends Stan Hudson and Sean Doublet definitely think so.  When they originally met Sean wasn't even into craft beer.  He noted that Stan came around with growlers pouring 4 oz samples for everyone.  We know this to be likely as we've known Stan for many years and have experienced his proclivity to share his brews.  Interestingly, beer isn't what originally introduced us to Stan, we have cigars to thank for that.  However, we quickly find we shared a common love for craft beer as well.  We've enjoyed beers with Stan around the country.  This was well before Neutral Ground was a thing, but he was a passionate homebrewer.  He's visited us here in Atlanta, I've visited him in Texas, and we've met at cigar meetups in Tennessee, where Stan shipped kegs of his beer up from Texas to share. Sean really didn't have much a choice about being a beer fan around Stan and over the years he developed the same passion.  At the time, he still lived in Louisiana when the two decided to start their brewery.  The name comes from a strip of disputed border between Texas and Louisiana.  We're told sometimes they still stand on opposite ends of the brewery and shake their fists at each other. We chat with Sean and Stan about our history with Stan, and even throw some true/false questions at Sean about some of Stan's adventures.  We chat homebrewing, Louisiana, cajun food, and learn all about their brews.   King Cake beer? It's a bold move to go with a pastry-inspired beer as your flagship, but the King Cake brew is working out pretty well for NGBC.  The fairly light and very drinkable brew delivers on the flavors, and if you visit the taproom in the trendy River East area of Ft. Worth you can even get it in a sugar rimmed glass. Laissez le bon temps rouler! For the full scoop on Neutral Ground Brewing Co. follow them on Facebook or head to ngbc.beer. The Beer List Neutral Ground Brewing Co. King Cake Force Majeur Hazy IPA Renaissance English Mild Juices & Berries IPA Synesthesia Saison (Yep, that Synesthesia Saison!)  

John Hall had hit records with his band Orleans, was voted Ski Instructor of the Year at Hunter Mountain, and ultimately was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives for two terms...and in between he was one of the driving forces behind No Nukes! We discuss John's activism as well as his musical history, how he moved to New York City and after a number of record deals ultimately struck it rich on Asylum with "Dance With Me" and "Still the One." We go deep into the details of what it takes to not only have a hit record, but to get elected to Congress. Meanwhile, John's still at it, he's got a new album entitled "Reclaiming My Time." You will thoroughly enjoy your time listening to Hall tell stories of his life and career! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

Marco Santarelli is an Investor, Author, Inc. 5000 Entrepreneur, and the Founder of Norada Real Estate Investments – a Nationwide Provider of Turnkey Cash-Flow Investment property.  His Mission is to help 1 million People Create Wealth and Passive Income and Put Them on the Path to Financial Freedom with Real Estate.  He's also the host of the top-rated podcast – Passive Real Estate Investing. In this episode we talked about: Current State of the Economy The Pandemic vs Great Recession Property Appreciation Valuation Importance of Rental Growth Inflation Mortgage Rates Real Estate Outlook 2022 Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.noradarealestate.com/marco-santarelli/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcosantarelli/ Transcription: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name's Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time.    Jesse (22s): All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to working capital the real estate podcast. My name's Jessie for galley and my guest today is Marco Sante. Reli Marco is an investor author, Inc. 1000 entrepreneur and the founder of neurotra real estate investments. The largest nationwide provider of turnkey cashflow, investment properties, and a returning guests. Marco, how's it going?    Marco (44s): It's going great, Jesse. How are you?    Jesse (46s): I'm doing fantastic. You know what, actually, before the show, I forgot to ask you, where are you joining us from today? Southern California. Same base, same spot.    Marco (56s): Yes, but I am a fellow Canadian, so I grew up in Calgary.    Jesse (1m 2s): That's right. That's right. We talked to, we talked a little bit about that last time on the show. Well, it's great to have a fellow Canadian on the show and just a west coast vantage point in the states. How's everything been going a lot is we were just kind of laughing at how long it's been since the last time. Last time we spoke on the podcast.    Marco (1m 20s): Yeah. It felt like two months ago, but really it was about a year ago. So I can't believe how fast time flies. It's just crazy, but I know things, things have been, things have been humming along. I mean, we can talk about the economy in general, but things have been crazy over the last year and I'm sure it's been that way in Canada. You know, COVID kind of put a damper on things for a while, as you know, and I think it drove people a little crazy, not being able to go to the restaurants and do a lot of the things they normally do. And I think people just being cooped up at the house, especially with work, drove some people a little bit stir crazy, and now we're starting to see people come out and, you know, go to establishments and restaurants and, and, and everybody's like crazy busy because people are now wanting to do the things that they haven't been able to do for a long time.    And I think it's the same in Toronto, if not everywhere else.    Jesse (2m 11s): Yeah. I mean the roaring twenties is almost, it's just a, it's a bumper sticker at this point, but yeah, we definitely, I mean, our, our political landscape has been much more similar, I would guess to California then to Florida in terms of how long we were locked down for. And now we are starting to open things up, but yeah, for, for a long time there, we were just kind of shut down and, you know, like I said, we're, we're still kind of finding our way out of it.    Marco (2m 38s): Yeah. Well, I'm glad things are opening up. You know, I, I, I personally believe that a lot of what we saw was had a political agenda and narrative behind it, and it was very much politically motivated or politically based with, you know, narratives behind it that were motivating at all. And, you know, blue believe what you want, go down any rabbit hole you like, but I'm just glad to see this thing moving, moving into or fading into the background because it's not good for a lot of businesses.    Long-term it wouldn't be good for the economy. Certainly hasn't slowed down housing, but housing is being driven by fundamental principles. There's just a lot of reasons why housing has been so incredibly strong and COVID actually believe it or not helped propel that, not, not held it back. So, so anyway, we are where we are, you know, and we just gotta look forward. Now    Jesse (3m 37s): I see you're, it looks like you're joining us from the office today. Has how have the, the regulations been, or I guess the kind of return to work right now in, in your area, are people in the office, are they kind of coming in when they, when need be?    Marco (3m 53s): Well, as far as my company is concerned, my whole team has been remote right from the beginning. I've got, you know, my transaction coordinator in, and my assistant lives in Florida. I'm on the other side, 3000 miles away in California. And my whole team is mostly in California, but they're remote. However, I am in an office environment and I do have other people, you know, in the hall down the hall, it really hasn't affected most people, people for the most part come in when they want. But you know, we work from home. We work from the office and you do what you do, CA California, interestingly enough, California and New York and New Jersey have been probably the most strict in terms of COVID regulations and having, you know, moratoriums and all that kind of stuff, Texas, Florida, the salt water, the Southeast states have been pretty open, open about it, less restrictive and opened up sooner.    And so people were able to go out sooner, get back to work sooner in a work environment, whatnot. At the end of the day, I think, you know, the economy just finds its way and, and people, you know, we try to stay in a capitalistic society and business just finds a way to do business. You know, people want to transact. People want to have Congress and, and, and so people just find a way to do it regardless of what regulations or restrictions they're there, but things are opening up everywhere right now.    So it's, it's a good thing to see. And I, and I hope that's the case for Canada. Cause I know Canada has been even more restrictive than most of the U S you know, you've had these lights, you know, 14 day quarantines and all kinds of crazy stuff going on. Yeah.    Jesse (5m 31s): It's a, it's one of those things where I think, like you said before, it we're moving, it's fading into the back, you know, fingers crossed, but yeah, it has been for sure. I know that, you know, I haven't, haven't read up on the latest, but not too long ago. The ability to come back into the country has been challenging. I've had people on the podcast where, you know, they've had to change, you know, we're coming into Montreal, but we, you know, we, can't not, we couldn't back then, that was only a month ago. So I'm like I said, fingers, I have to talk at the bigger pockets conference in new Orleans, in, in October, which I think it was rescheduled from September.    So I'm hoping everything's all good. We, we are getting the vaccines rolling on their second. You know, everybody's getting the majority of people are getting their second vaccine.    Jesse (6m 14s): So yeah, we'll, we'll see how it    Jesse (6m 16s): Goes. But you know, one distinction, you know, in the midst of all this, and I've talked on the show about it is, you know, we look back at oh 6 0 7, you know, right into oh nine where you had the financial crisis. And one of the key differences aside from like the technical recession was that there wasn't a lot of capital sloshing around and we're in a very different environment right now. Like you said, the, the, the economy seems to find a way, but one big distinction is that even with activity slowing or had slowed down over the last year, there's a lot of capital.    And, you know, as you know, for our industry that keeps the wheels turning.    Marco (6m 55s): Yeah. So the, the, the credit issue back then was that there was too much loose credit and people were getting loans that couldn't qualify otherwise. And, you know, the running joke was, if you could fog a mirror, you could qualify for financing. And so there were all kinds of interesting loan products. In fact, there was financing up to 103% of the purchase price. So not only were you getting a hundred percent financing for the purchase, but you were getting an additional 3% to cover closing costs. So you were literally into deals for zero, zero out of pocket.    And you know, the other running joke at the time was that there was, you know, what they called a, the ninja. Well, there was, I was going to say Nina first assets. And then they came to ninja loans, no income, no assets, no job. Really, if you just had a credit score, you qualified. So, but the problem was, this is, it's not so much that there was loose credit. People were taking advantage of loose credit to speculate. So they were buying real estate thinking there were investors, but they were really just investors in air quotes. And what I mean by that is they were gambling.    They were purely speculating on the market going up and continuing to go up because they saw historically for years prices going up. And this is what a lot of people do. And I find a lot of Canadians sadly do this because all the Canadian markets are so inflated that the mentality is that real estate and investing is buying a property at a price, maybe high and holding it in the hopes that it goes up even higher. And so it's not, it's not even a buy low sell high, it's a buy high hope that it goes up higher and it will be worth something more later in terms of equity or I flip it and I, and I cash out my capital gains.    Well, that's not investing at all. That's speculating investing is when you put in a dollar and you get a dollar 10 back, you know, you have to have cash on cash return. That's, you know, it goes beyond your cap rate with properties. It's what you put in. What am I getting back out every year on top of my investment, you can measure that in terms of cash on cash returns, that's investing the equity that builds with that is your long-term wealth creation. And that's where the wealth comes in from real estate investing. So you need to have all those pillars. You need to have all those, those legs on that stool.    So you have to have the front end cash flow and the cash on cash return. Plus the equity growth over time. They didn't do that back in 2007, 6, 7, 8. In fact, that started back in 2004 and people were just speculating all along, mostly with new construction. And so that created a huge problem where we had all this inventory being built up in at a time when there wasn't enough demand to suck up or absorb all that new inventory coming on. When you compare that to today and what's been happening and over the last 3, 4, 5 years, the fundamentals in the market are completely different.    This is true, pretty much all across the country, in the United States. And to a large degree in Canada where demand outstrips supply, we cannot keep pace to create new household formations each and every year for the demand for the, the demand that's coming out. First time, home buyers, households that are splitting, splitting out from, you know, being one pot or household. Now, you know, people moving out and looking for a rental or a place to buy people moving into the country, you know, net migration into the U S so, and then, you know, the people who've just been holding back plus you've got gen Z and gen Y that are also of age where they're now moving out of the house.    So there's this tremendous demand, and there's not enough supply for it. So th th the dynamics today is different than what happened in oh 6 0 7 0 8, even though credit is still relatively widely available and historically cheap. I mean, we're talking at least in the U S we have 30 year fixed rate mortgages, conventional what we call conventional financing. So you could literally lock in for 30 years at one fixed interest rate, unlike in Canada, where you have to, you know, re re finance every three to five. So we can lock in at 3.3%, 3.5% today and have it for 30 years, super cheap money, super cheap money.    Jesse (11m 6s): Yeah. You know, it's, it's funny. I think we've talked about it before, too on the show where it's the little, the small distant, or not necessarily small, but these distinctions between mortgage products in the U S and Canada, where, when I tell Canadians, or if a Canadian doesn't know that you can do a 30 year fixed product, it's kind of like, wow. But then on the flip side, Americans are always surprised when we say that we can port our mortgages pretty easily from bank to bank for a story from property to property. So, you know, you, you sell a property, you got 90 days, you can move it from TD to CIVC or, you know, from CIVC to Royal bank, whatever, I don't, I, as far as I know, that's not really something that happens in the states where you port, port your mortgage.    Marco (11m 47s): Well, what would the advantage of, of doing that be other than, you know, trying to get a lower interest rate? Well,    Jesse (11m 52s): Because our penalties are so high that if you're in a five-year fixed, and you're trying to say on year two, you sell the place and you're going to incur that penalty. It allows you to not incur the penalty because the mortgage is going to move from one property to the other, but stay with the same with the same financial institution.    Marco (12m 10s): Yeah. I guess my question would be, how often do people actually do that?    Jesse (12m 14s): I did it here because I was in a year, I think 3.7 or something of a five-year fixed term. But yeah, I mean, the other thing too, I guess, is the rates are slightly different. I know our mortgage rates are historically a little bit lower. I know I just secured a five-year fixed for 1.6, one that was about, let's call it three months ago. And I think, you know, what would a, what would a 30 year fixed right now in, in your area? W what, what would you get it at?    Like 3% to two something?    Marco (12m 48s): It depends on your credit, but roughly around three to three and a half percent, but again, keep in mind, you're locking that for 30 years. Yeah. Right. A lot of security there for, if you want it to do an adjustable rate, you can do it like a 3, 5, 7 or 10 year adjustable that then, you know, adjust after that period of time. And then, you know, it's locked for, or, you know, you lock it in for a 3, 5, 7 or 10 year period at a very low rate, no closer to the one point something you're talking about. But then after that, it becomes a variable rate.    The thing with that is you can still take advantage of, you know, a one to 2% interest rate and then refinance it later. If, if, if the rates are a competitive offer, lower enough to refinance it and lock in again, that a lower rate after it, you know, it becomes a variable rate. So there's always ways to play with the, you know, the system and, you know, and, and take advantage of, of the available credit out there. So there's always a strategy. It's just what makes sense today, you know, in a, in a market like you're in, if you're in Vancouver, Toronto, or some of the coastal markets in the U S where property values are very, very high, and you can't get a good cash on cash return today, and your, your play is more equity game, whether it's a value add strategy, or you're looking at, you know, capital gains, because it's, you believe it to be a hot market that will continue for many years to come well, in that scenario, you're not focused on cashflow or cash on cash.    So what you should be doing is lowering your debt service as much as possible by going for the lowest possible rate, because your, your strategy is, is equity growth or, or value add equity growth. And so you need to keep your debt service as low as possible. But if you're, if you're investing in a, in a market, like many of the markets we're in like the Midwest, south, south east, where your focus is both cashflow and equity growth, well, then you're probably better off just locking in a low rate on a 30 year fixed and just not bothering with it ever until you either pay it off.    Or if rates continue to drop, you know, 2, 3, 5 years down the road, you refinance that at that lower rate, or to pull some cash out, some equity out in order to reinvest that equity into more property elsewhere. So you have to look at your overall strategy and that's how you choose the credit, you know, or loan product that makes the most sense for you and that property based on your strategy. Yeah,    Jesse (15m 15s): And I think it was a, I think you did a newsletter or a post one time where you were talking about the four, you know, the four different ways that we make money as investors, you know, appreciation cash flow tax advantages, and then the amortization on your loan or return on equity. But I think you, you definitely hit the nail on the head when it comes to whether their coastal markets in the states, or whether you're in a lot of our Canadian markets, where appreciation is the one thing people look at. And, you know, there's a way to approach that, like you said, with value add, but I think that approach is even you, you need to even be more dialed in as an investor to accurately approach it.    If your play is equity, you know, forced equity. And I think that comes into when you're starting to get into job growth, net migration, populate, population growth, starting to really look at the data when it comes to the fundamental metrics that would make, you know, a property appreciate or in conjunction with that. Like you said, have a value add strategy where you're literally forcing the, the NOI up.    Marco (16m 22s): Yeah. Well, that sounded more like a statement than a question, but you're, but I think you underscore what I was saying, essentially that you, you need to consider what your strategy is and choose your markets, neighborhoods, properties, and the team all based around your investment strategy, what you're trying to do. And of course financing is just one piece of that puzzle that brings it all together. And I mean, if we can dive into any of that, if you want, but, but really that's very much case and, and, and property specific.    So for, for yourself over    Jesse (16m 57s): The last, you know, since we last spoke, are there geographical markets that you have now either shifted towards or continue to invest in? How are you looking at where you're investing and, and the fundamentals of those markets?    Marco (17m 13s): Well, for me personally, I mean, my, my, my, my investment strategy has shifted. I, I was last in the last two years, I've been focused in Missouri and the Northeast, you know, Wisconsin and other, other markets up in the Northeast because it's very conducive to cashflow. I get good cash on cash return. So I can just park a relatively small amount of capital and get good cashflow and good cash on cash return. So for me, and particularly our clients, we're buying properties that range, I know this is going to sound crazy if you sit in there in the, you know, downtown Toronto, but we're talking properties that on the low end, 80 to a hundred thousand on the, on the upper end of this cashflow, you know, spectrum 140, 50, $160,000.    Now we're talking three bedroom, two bath houses here, you know, it's, you know, for where I live, that, that you can't even build a garage, just    Jesse (18m 8s): Say, your parking spot might be 70,000 squat, right? The reality is,    Marco (18m 12s): Is every market is so different. This is why I keep saying until I'm blue in the face, that all real estate is local. Because even if you look at the smaller tertiary markets in Canada, you're going to find the same type of thing. You're going to find houses that range from 100 to $200,000, you know, we're talking single family detached. So you've got to put everything into perspective. All markets are are different and all real estate is local. It's not, there's no such thing as a national housing market. So, you know, so that's one, one investment type, you know, is if you're looking for cashflow, you want stability and just build a portfolio to produce cash on cash returns.    That's where you focus, you know, the a hundred to $200,000 range. More specifically with us, it's like 80 to 160,000. These are single family detached, of course, there's duplexes, triplexes, fourplexes, but that's where a lot of our clients are focused that have that investment strategy. That's what they're trying to build as far as their portfolio. Now, you look at the other side of that spectrum, and there is people who are looking for are focused on more capital growth, meaning they want more appreciation right now than anything else.    So I believe you still have to have positive cashflow or maybe just it's okay to be breaking even I don't particularly like that, but I certainly don't want a lot of properties in my portfolio or your portfolio for that matter to be all cashflow negative, because the question is, how long can you sustain that? And how long do you want to sustain a negative cashflow? Because you're pulling cash out of your pocket, or, you know, out of your savings account to feed the, and float your portfolio. So worst case scenario is you want to be basically break even net net.    And what I mean by that is you're budgeting for vacancy. You're budgeting for maintenance and repairs. You want to budget for the complete operations, ongoing operations of your properties when you budget for that, and you still have a positive cashflow or break even that's okay for a period of time. But if you're focused and your strategy is capital growth, meaning you want appreciation, then you focus on those markets. And right now for us, we're focused in we're in about six Florida markets, two Texas markets peppering throughout the Southeast of the U S, which includes Tennessee, Georgia, Missouri, and then parts of the Northeast, the effect, a greater ring of the Chicago land area.    Those are areas that are experiencing very strong price growth right now. In fact, it's kind of hard not to pick a market in the U S this year and last year, that's not experiencing incredible price growth and that's, and that's being, you know, going full circle. That's being driven primarily because of very, very strong demand and tight supply. I mean, that's just economics 1 0 1, you know, supply and demand. And that that's, that's the issue, but that's been a problem that's been going on for years and has accelerated going forward, where we're into 20, 22 and 2023.    We're expecting to see that price appreciation in many of these markets drop from what we're seeing now is double digit down to single digit. Like, I mean, a healthy single digit, but still single digit. And that, you know, that adds up, but that's the other strategy. So you're either focused on cashflow and cash on cash return, or you're more focused on price appreciation without being a gambler like I was talking about before you don't want to be that speculator. And so I think three quarters of our markets right now are leaning towards price appreciation, just not because we control it and not because we purposely chosen those markets for that reason.    There's other reasons why we choose markets, but they are just appreciating so strongly because they've got, you know, all, all, all the factors stacked up in its favor, as far as, you know, population growth, job growth, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, so it just worked out that way.    Jesse (22m 10s): So from, just from what you said initially there, in terms of the, the net net, say that break even point, and that's going to include, like you said, vacancy allowance, CapEx reserve, just studied curiosity, more a technical question. W what do you typically estimate for your properties to make sure that you have as a CapEx reserve? Do you do it as a percentage of a percentage of the total value of the property or use a different strategy?    Marco (22m 37s): Well, if I understood the question correctly, what I do is for vacancy allowance, I budget for me, my baseline is 5% and 5% for vacancy and 5% for maintenance and repairs. Okay. So I'll always, but, but I'll adjust it depending on, on the condition of the property. Not that I'm buying properties that require work. I don't want deferred maintenance. I'm always buying, you know, like new, if not new, right.    But I'll budget 5%. I'll adjust that up or down, depending on location and the type of property and, and any deferred maintenance, an age, and a few other things, but it'll go anywhere from 4% to 8% for vacancy five is my baseline. And for repairs and maintenance, again, I, I put down 5% and I'll adjust that up or down, depending on the age of certain items, like the mechanicals roof, HVAC, hot water tank, and a few other things.    But, but I, I don't recommend going below 5%. It's okay to budget more. You're just budgeting for what's there. If you're running your numbers on higher numbers, like six, eight, or even 10%, and you're still cashflow positive and things pan out, you're happy with the numbers that you're seeing on your projections. Well, even better. Yeah. Yeah, for    Jesse (23m 58s): Sure. And I mean, sometimes I know in, in some of the markets here that depending on the lender, it might be a requirement of them that, you know, you have to have X amount as part of the, as part of the loan in terms of, you know, when you get an inspection done, these things need to happen within 12 months, sign this, and, you know, otherwise you're not going to get approved for the loan. Just a further question on, on the underwriting process, when you do go into these markets, you know, you have to put some sort of estimate for, for, you know, price appreciation to be able to kind of walk that out to a end price, to, to have a reversion in your model.    How do you approach that when you're, when you're giving investors potential returns on, on an investment?    Marco (24m 41s): Well, there's two ways to do that. I don't like making appreciation projections because we, you know, you, you and I have no control over that. And it's exactly that it's, you're making the assumption. So there's two ways to do that. You, you can use a number between four and 6% as a longterm average. So you can just say over the course of, you know, multiple real estate cycles or over the course of 10, 20 years in a particular market, that it will over time average out to four to 6%.    And one of the reasons why you choose that number, you know, a four to 6% is because what you're trying to do is match that up with, with the real rate of inflation, regardless of what the government's tell you, which is 99% of the time, it's just pure lies. You know, you want to base it on the real rate of inflation, which hovers around four to 6% in terms of real rates. So if you, if you project that out, you'll find that often that matches long-term historical averages for real estate.    And as a side note, it's not that real estate prices are going up. It's that the current, the value of the currency is going down, our, our money is being inflated away, essentially what it really comes down to. Yeah, but if you want to be more specific about your projections, what you can do is look at historical growth rates within a particular market, weighing it more towards the near term than the long term, like far, far back historically. So it's what you might call an ex financial moving average.    But if you look at what the market has been doing over the last 2, 4, 6, and eight years, that's probably more representative of what that market will continue to do for the next, you know, five to 10 years. But, but I think it's safe to be in the, in a range of three to 8% with probably four or 5% being a safe, fair expectation of appreciation over a longterm average.    And again, it's, it's number one, that's based on the real rate of inflation, which in a perfect world, if everything was a constant, that's typically what you would see happen with real estate prices. However, the reason you don't see that always being four or 5%, why sometimes you see it a lot higher, even double vision. Sometimes you see it, you know, effectively zero or coming down, comes down to economics 1 0 1 supply and demand. That's the biggest driver of prices in the short term and locally is, is market supply and demand.    But if those things were constant and never changed, real estate prices would change based on inflation. Yeah.    Jesse (27m 27s): And I guess probably just a different version of that is, you know, w w we'll oftentimes look at the net opera or the rental growth, as opposed to the, the asset growth and capitalize, you know, with a larger apartments would capitalizing the, the NOI rather than the price. So for instance, if three, if your rent is growing at three, 4% or whatever that historic average is that you include the reversion, the big question is which cap rate do you use on the end? And, you know, that's, that's where it's more art than science, I think.    Marco (27m 58s): Yeah. So you actually bring up a very good point because what I've been talking about applies to residential real estate, generally speaking one to four unit properties, because they are, they are valued and appraised based on market comparables. And so you're looking at, you know, what, what supply and demand is dictating prices to be in a particular area. And that's how you determine market value. However, it's slightly different when you talk about commercial properties, like what you're dealing with, you know, because the pricing is based on the net operating income of a property and the cap rate capitalization rate in local area.    And that's how you determine the market value. So it's based more upon income than it is on sales comparables. However, there is a relationship and a correlation between the two, because if prices are going up in an area because of supply and demand, that's going to continue to push rents up. And as rents go up, your, your, your income goes up, your net operating income goes up and therefore the value of that, you know, the assessed value or the appraised value of that property goes up as well.    So it may be a legging number, but if property values are going up sooner or later, rents are going to go up sooner or later, you're going to push your rents up in your S in your seven unit property or whatever you have, and that increases your NOI. And as long as you're, you know, expenses and utilities, aren't going up faster than, you know, the rates you raise your rents, your property values will go up too.    Jesse (29m 30s): Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, even for our office properties, you know, if you're triple net leases, then yeah. It's NOI is really the big, the big aspect of what we capitalize. I want to get your thoughts. You touched on it briefly there, you know, I don't know what you guys are up to now in the states five or 6 trillion in terms of stimulus spending, but I'd want to get your thoughts on the environment that we're in as like from an inflation point of view, what your thoughts are on number one, the amount of money that's, that's been put into the economy and, and what you think the effects of that are, and just your general outlook on the direction that let's, let's say let's, let's talk U S centric first, and, and yeah.    What, where do you see, where do you see this going over the next short term, short to mid term?    Marco (30m 20s): Well, it's, it's, it's a little frightening to think of where this could go, you know, last year in the U S they, you know, they passed the cares act, and that was a $2.2 trillion injection of capital into the, you know, into the system and the economy. And, you know, that went all over the place, you know, went to businesses through a, you know, a paycheck protection program. You guys have something similar in Canada, it was injected into directly to the hands of, of individuals and consumers. So it went right down to, you know, into the economy right down to, you know, the consumer, what they did with, it was another question, you know, a lot of it was probably, you know, stashed away into savings.    So it never actually flowed into the economy. It was just hoarded, but a lot of it was just blown. I'm sure there was a lot of people who went to Vegas. In fact, I just came back from Vegas and it's just amazing to see I'll, I'll say an air quotes, the types of people that are in some of the higher end resorts, like the Venetian, the wind and whatnot. It's like, okay, dude, I know you can't afford the rooms here, so where'd you get the cash, right. So that's kind of scary, but, you know, that was like a $2.2 trillion injection.    And then following that there was an extension to the cares act, which was another 0.9 trillion. So in almost a full trillion dollars. And then, you know, we had more recently the American rescue plan, which is another $1.9 trillion. So all in all, we've had 5 trillion, which is 500, 5,000 billion dollars of, you know, you know, just creative from nothing currency that was pumped into the economy here.    And, you know, if that wasn't a $5 trillion, wasn't enough, you know, they're already talking about the American jobs plan, which is another $2.7 trillion. And then who knows, I mean, there's also talk about this infrastructure bill, another infrastructure bill, that's going to be between two and 3 trillion. So if you add all that up, you know, we're approaching $10 trillion in addition to the existing debts and obligations that were already there, you know, that had built up over the last a hundred years, most of which has been built up over the last 10 to 15 years.    So it's just an insane amount of capital that has been currency has been, you know, created out of thin air pumped into the, the U S economy. Most of it's staying within the U S not floating, you know, internationally, you know, through foreign aid and whatnot. So what does that, you know, what does that mean? Well, you know, without, without jimmying around with the system, ultimately it's going to lead to inflation and lots of it, and we're already seeing it. We've already seen it over the last year, especially with energy, healthcare, food, education, and whatnot.    You know, some food prices have gone up literally 20 to 22% over the last 12 months, you know, meats and whatnot. So we're, we're seeing it all over the place and that's going to continue, you know, the wall street journal did a survey not too long ago. Very recently. I think it was in March, it was published in may and they interviewed or surveyed a whole bunch of economists. And they asked them the question, you know, what do you expect these latest rounds of stimulus will do if, you know, the ones that have passed, plus the ones that are coming, if it passes as far as U S inflation goes and how that will impact us over the next six months to three years.    And really they were just trying to see, you know, do you think inflation is going to be below 2%, about 2% or over 2% without being specific about the number and a whopping 81% of those people who surveyed said that it's going to be higher than 2%. And we already know that the real rate of inflation has been four to five to 6% annually. In some cases it's been double digits. Like I was saying, you know, with food items, it's, it's been an upward of 20% or more. So this is not helping the housing sector.    I mean, it isn't, it isn't, it's, it's certainly helping in the sense of you being an investor and being invested in real estate, because it's helping you, you know, in terms of price and you know, your debt. But if you're trying to get into the market, or if you're a homeowner or a ranch or trying to get into the market, or if it's your first home or you're trying to move up, you know, that that's, that's becoming sticker shock. Yeah. So, so are we going to expect to see more inflation? Yes. We've seen lots of it and we're going to probably see a lot more of it over the next, you know, three years.    Jesse (34m 57s): Yeah. It's, it's really hard to, to get a kind of sense of the numbers. It's almost when you, like, when you're talking about the, you know, the, you're talking about the universe in terms of like the magnitude of these numbers, once you start getting into the trillions, I saw a really, I think, think it status does that basically tracks the, the package, the stimulus package by country. And I think, I think the states were around 26 or 20, 26 or 27% of GDP sounds about right.    And we, we haven't been that far off either. I think we, we're not, we're not at that level, but yeah, I think for us, it's, it's over a hundred billion now with the much smaller economy, but I mean, at the end of the day, it's really part of the reason that we like real estate at, at the very least to try to hedge inflation to a certain extent. But I think, I think what people need to understand too, is that just because you're in real estate, it's not the hedge, like you said before, the value of your dollars are slowly going down.    If we let this kind of continue,    Marco (36m 5s): It is. And that's the beautiful thing about real estate is it's it's, it is, it is a hedge against inflation. I mean, you, you win on multiple levels, you know, as property values go up. It's, it's really not that the value is increasing. You know, the intrinsic value stays exactly the same, but, but what you call value is actually not value going up. It's price going up, price is going up because the dollar is being devalued. So it needs more, you need more of those dollars to buy the same, same piece of property with that intrinsic value.    So the value today is the same as the value was yesterday. And it will be the same value as it is tomorrow. It's producing the same value. But the price for that is what's changing because of the currency being, you know, denom, debased. So that's how it's an inflation hedge, but where you really win as a real estate investor is, is if you have, let's say a hundred thousand dollars in debt on that property today. Well guess what that debt next year is going to be worth $95,000.    Nothing has changed other than the value of the debt has gone down. And now you're paying the same monthly payments a year from now, as you are paying today. So you're paying off that debt with cheaper and cheaper dollars. So that $500 mortgage payment today, you know, in five years or 10 years from now is going to be a Starbucks coffee. So, you know, your, your, your, your dad is being evaporated away in your favor.    And so, and that's great because your tenant is actually paying it off. Your tenants are paying it off. So that's the beautiful thing about inflation. Is it eats away at your debts and, and no mortgage that I know, no mortgage loan that I know I actually has a clause in it where it adjusts for inflation where every year it goes up 5% because inflation has gone up, it doesn't happen. So,    Jesse (38m 1s): Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things where, like you just said it very few industries where you can, you can download that expense to your customer, or at least, you know, pass on that cost to your customer, that costs have increased inflation. And, and we, we obviously try to do that on the commercial side with, with, you know, increases and the same thing on the residential. Yeah. So Marco, I want to be cognizant of the time here coming up to the end here and want you to leave us on a, on a positive note. So in terms of how you're looking at the next, the next while for yourself and rata, are there, you know, the areas you touched geographically, but are there opportunities that you're looking at that, you know, you're really, really excited about?    What's, what's going on in your world over the next, the next little while?    Marco (38m 48s): Well, I'll give you a big picture and a small picture answer to your question. So, so right now we're seeing, you know, all big picture stuff, economic growth, being a strong and consistent as it's been an improvement since you know, where we were a year ago, which was kind of early stages of COVID all the leading economic indicators are very bullish, very strong. So we expect things to continue economically speaking to hum along and be strong. You know, unemployment is coming down, you know, jobs.    There's a lot of jobs out there. In fact, a lot of people are having a hard time hiring people, even with bonuses. McDonald's, there's a, McDonald's, that's offering $18 an hour as a starting wage. So, wow. So, you know, there's a little bit of demand for, for employment right now. When you see that kind of sign affordability, I still pretty darn good, you know, in terms of, of purchasing hard assets like real estate and, and, you know, cars and whatnot.    So affordability, although it's, you know, getting weaker, it's dropping slowly, it's still there. And that's mostly driven because of very competitive interest rates. Consumer behavior has been very consistent. I mean, people are still spending money and buying shoes and this and that. So, you know, that that really hasn't changed much, much the, you know, the existing home market is healthy. We need more supply, but demand is strong. Same thing with the new home market demand is strong. We need more supply it's coming, but not as fast as we need it.    And housing supply is good, but there's room for improvement there at a more granular level. I'm very bullish on real estate. Very optimistic. In fact, I'm, I'm in the middle of a transaction right now. I'm refinancing some properties and we have a lot of investors coming to us from the U S Canada and other places, looking to invest in the markets that we operate in because they can get the cashflow that can get the price growth. They have the tax benefits, they have the leverage, you know, th th th they have all the benefits working in their favor.    You know, when people are thinking, you know what, we've had a really strong bull run for the last 3, 4, 5 years. You know, maybe it's too later. I missed the boat. Well, no, it's never too late. You know, when people ask me, you know, when's the best time to get involved in real estate. And I always say right now, because look, you can't go back in time. You can't, you know, go back to a place at a time where you missed out, but there's always a, there's always an opportunity. It's not a question of when to invest in real estate.    It's always a question of where am I investing in real estate? And this is why we operate in, you know, 20 to 25 markets at any given time. It's because there's different things happening in different places around the country. And there's always opportunity. It's just a question of where are you in that local real estate cycle and, and the overall economic cycle to take advantage of what's going on. So you have investment capital. You want to put it to work. You want to generate income. You want price growth over time. You want the tax benefits, and you want to borrow other people's money in order to make those acquisitions all that's going on all the time.    It's just a matter of where, not so much when. And so I'm, I'm always bullish, but I'm very bullish today because we just have a lot of things stacked in our favor with low interest rates, strong demand, lack of supply, continued growth, a strong economy, and we've got last but not least. And I can go on about this, but I think I'm making my point pretty damn clear right now, you know, we've got this thing going on, that I call shadow demand. So we talked about, you know, lack of supply and strong demand.    Well, I'll make the demand part of the equation, even worse, if you will. Right now, we have a situation where the percentage of people that are ages 18 to 29 years old, essentially what we call young adults, it's been the highest. It is the highest right now that it has been over the last hundred years. So right now, 52% of young adults, people that are between the ages of 18 and 29 years old are still living with their parents for one reason or another. Well, guess what? They're not going to stay home forever.    You know, they're, they're adults, and they're going to be looking for a place to go to move out to typically rent, but ultimately buy. And so where are these people going to go? I mean, there is a lot of this shadow demand, pent up demand for people looking for, or will be looking for rentals. Well, guess what, if you own property, good quality property, and good neighborhoods that you can make available to these people. You're on the winning side of that equation because you're going to get maximum rent and that will continue to increase as the years go on.    So it's a good time to be buying real estate,    Jesse (43m 39s): Right. I guess that's as positive as we're going to get here. Marco, you've obviously answered the questions on the previous podcast. So why don't we just ask you one question here before we wrap up and we can tell people how to connect any resources, podcasts, or books that, that you're into right now that you'd like to recommend to, to our listeners.    Marco (44m 1s): That's a funny question. I'm actually rereading not my first time, of course, or maybe my second time, but I'm rereading the 20th anniversary edition of Robert Kiyosaki's rich dad, poor dad. And part of the reason why I'm actually rereading it is because I'm going through it with my daughter. I figured a good time to review it. Right. But it's been a long time since I first read it. How has it aged? It doesn't change. No, the fundamentals, you know, the principles stay the same, but I think it's, it's kind of like, you know, reading some, one of many books, like, you know, think and grow rich or many of those other fundamental foundational books to reread it once a year or once every two years, you know, just as a refresher.    So I guess it, you know, it's not a new book, it's an older book, but I'll, I would recommend that one just because you know, it doesn't, it doesn't age. It's, it's still the number one personal finance book out there. So yeah, that, that, that would be definitely a book to read resources. There's tons of resources. I mean, there's obviously there's your podcast and show, you know, not to toot my own horn, but you know, there's my podcast, the passive real estate investing podcast. And of course the website where we post everything from the show is passive real estate investing.com.    What else can I recommend? You know, I went to Amazon the other day and I did a search for real estate and there's like zillions of books. It's crazy. You know, there's no excuse not to spend 10 bucks for a damn book. Right. Get rich, get rich dad and then get, you know, cashflow quadrant three of those two. And you'll, you'll, you'll be mentally set. Yeah.    Jesse (45m 44s): There's no, excuse. You know, I mean, it's 20, 21. You don't even need to read anymore. You just need to sit, but no, I appreciate it. We'll put a, we'll put that in the, in the show notes. And I can't say, I can't say enough good things about, about your podcast. It's always informative. You know, it's something where I constantly come back to, there's probably two or three podcasts in our, in the real estate space that I always come back to. And thank you. Yeah. And it's always great. Aside from that, Marco is there, if people want to learn a little bit more about neurotra or want to reach out to you, anything specifically, we can pop in the show notes to make that easy.    Marco (46m 23s): Well, I'm going to be updating my free guide. It's like a 37 page primer on real estate. It covers a lot of stuff I talked about today and more so I'm going to juice it up a little bit, but it's called the ultimate guide to passive real estate investing. And it's just a free download on our websites. The two websites we have, I would start there. And, you know, and then of course, you know, the other resources we talked about, like your, your podcasts and the books and everything else. So I would encourage that. And also I, this is the year where I'm releasing the passive real estate investing book, and I'll be making that available for free.    You know, you can get the paper back for a couple bucks just for the shipping, but if you want to download it, it'll be just a hundred percent free. And so if you download that guide, you'll get an email notification. When the book is released to, to go get, grab a copy of that as well. So if you're interested in that, just download the guide from one of our two websites at passive real estate, investing.com or our, our mothership website@noradarealestate.com.    Jesse (47m 28s): My returning guest today has been Marco Centre, Ellie Marco, thanks for being part of working capital,    Marco (47m 35s): Jesse. I appreciate you having me back on your show. It's been a lot of fun.    Jesse (47m 46s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one take care.