Finding Normal: Life after Spiritual Trauma

Our conversation with Katie about her recent research into abuse in churches. We touch on how background contributes, the many kinds of abuse, how it becomes so prevalent, possible paths forward toward safer churches, and more.TW: Sexual AssaultAdditional Resources: Katie's Paper "Silent No More", Podcast with Ruthy Heiler, PBS Article on Abuse Prevention in Catholic Churches, Best Practices on Outside InvestigationsRelated Podcasts: Our Interview with Olivia Olds, Our Story, Episode in the Authority Principle, Interview with Beth White on Preacher Boys

It's been a while, but we are still here! Join us as we ramble for a little while about the things we are thinking about these days, and hint at some future topics for the podcast.Recommended Resource: The History Chicks Podcast: Martha Washington and Ona Judge

A very short episode - thoughts inspired by a song...on YouTube: https://youtu.be/ETC85CgzTHM?si=IVQK0dxc12Us_4g9on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/2UHK8agSYWJUzMuQTPMCVq

We discuss why transition out of the IFB feels like living in a foreign culture, IFB social hierarchy and potential inbreeding, with background music by Poppy the guinea pig.CD Code: MUSICEPISODE24

We finally tackle a much requested topic - Christian Music. So many rules, so little sense. So what music is ok - and why do Christians make up so many rules about it?Recommended Resources:Postmodern JukeboxOur CD - discount code: MUSICEPISODE24

A number of people in the Deconstructing/Advocate community read this situation shockingly wrong. So what's really going on?This is a very heavy and long episode, but we felt it couldn't really be any shorter without leaving out anything important.Recommended Resource:The War of ReturnHelpful links and resources:Buzzwords Info SheetIsrael: A Simple Guide by Noa TishbyRoots Metals / Debbie LechtmanUnpacking Israeli HistoryHen MazzigAmanda (on TikTok)Lizzy SavetskyMeira CowlandPolitical JewYoseph HaddadHonest ReportingThe Quad (YouTube series)Emily SchraderElica Le Bon

We discuss the toxic IFB teachings on "purity" and how it is destructive, harmful, and not even close to the truth. Once you start really examining it, the evangelical view of sex is quite disturbing.Resources:Bare MarriageShe Deserves BetterAndrew BaumanGod Made All of MeX-SpotGood Pictures, Bad PicturesAnatomy for Kids5 Myths Article by Dr. Camden MorganteOn Elizabeth Eliot's terrible CourtshipAwful TGC articleThe Purity Hoax by Jonathan PolettiTGC Background FAQS on Purity CultureOur previous episodes on courtship

We explore something we have noticed - when people recognize and reject legalism and think that they have somehow arrived at a new and better Christianity. But it isn't enough and we discuss why.Resources: Rebecca Davis' Blog - HeresTheJoy.comThe Unvarnished Truth PodcastUntwisting Scriptures Books 1-4

A discussion on how financial teaching and practices in abusive churches affect the lives of those under them - for years.Recommended Resource: Pagan ChristianityOther links:Reporting on Franklin's Graham's behaviorMore about Faith PromiseThe Naked Bible Podcast on MelchizedekOur Instagram profile

We discuss why we longer attend and institutional church, why it's good to take a break from church, and what "church" actually is (despite what we think of).Resources:Broken Trust by F. Remy DiederichPagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George BarnaHeiser on Hebrews 10:25 - Naked Bible PodcastBare Marriage episode on Grooming58 to 0 by Jon ZensJesus Storybook BibleMeredith Anne MillerThe Garden, the Curtain, and the Cross24 Family WaysBooks on Trauma Triggers: 1) The Body Keeps the Score (TW), 2) The Deepest Well, 3) Trauma and RecoveryWolfbane BooksInterview about Pastors and BurnoutRoys Report Interview about Healing from Abusive Churches

We share our thoughts and analysis of Jinger Duggar's recent book. What's good, the import context of the book, what's bad, and what's missing.Recommended Resources:Untwisting Scriptures, Book 1 by Rebecca DavisUntwisting Scriptures, Book 3 by Rebecca DavisQuiverfull by Kathryn JoyceDocumentation  of articles mentioned in the episode

TW: Discussion of Child Abuse, Death of a Pet, Suicidal ThoughtsWe talk with Olivia about her experience growing up under an abusive, narcissistic mother while under the influence of a toxic, abusive IFB "church" cult under a very controlling and untrustworthy pastor. We also talk with her about how she escaped, the honest struggles of her journey out, and how she has become a voice and advocate for others who grew up in the same cult-like church.Olivia's Instagram: olivia_thedoulaOlivia's Facebook: Olivia OldsBook - Feeling Great by Burns

Analysis of Debi Pearl's book Created to Be His Helpmeet. In which we refrain from reading inappropriate quotes from the book (mostly), dismiss Rachel's awkward college homemaking class, and reflect on why we don't like happy people.Resources:Interview with Cynthia Westphall on the Bare Marriage podcastCodependency episode on The Best of You with Alison CookMost Misunderstood Women of the Bible by Mary DeMuthTricia Robinson painting "The Four"Sarah McDugalBare Marriage (Sheila Gregoire)Quiverfull by Kathryn JoyceSins of the Amish series on PeacockOverthinkers Podcast with Dr. Dru Johnson - Should We Read the Bible Literally?

We discuss what the Bible teaches about spanking children and how scripture has been twisted to defend certain cultural ideas. We also delve into the history of spanking a bit to see where the idea of disciplining children that way came from.Resources and Documentation: Corporal Punishment in the Bible by William WebbThy Rod and They Staff They Comfort Me by Samuel MartinHeartfelt Discipline by Clay ClarksonJanet Lansbury and UnruffledFamilies Where Grace Is in Place by Jeff VanVonderanTransforming Toddlerhood with Devon KuntzmanNo-Drama Discipline by Dan Siegal and Tina BrysonWeb Articles of the History of SpankingSpanking-related articles from Bare Marriage: 1) https://baremarriage.com/2020/08/what-does-the-research-say-about-spanking/ 2) https://baremarriage.com/2022/12/spanking-teaches-kids-love-should-hurt/ Pages from BCM class notes teaching SpankingOther Resources:Desperate by Sally Clarkson and Sarah MaeLifegiving Parent by Sally ClarksonDifferent by Sally Clarkson

We discuss a variety of modern patriarchal movements and teachers. The final episode in our patriarchy series.Examples of False teaching:Created to be His Helpmeet by Debbi PearlLove and Respect by Emerson EggerichsDocumentation of Piper's abuse and support of abuse: https://baremarriage.com/2022/06/john-piper-tells-women-with-harsh-husbands-to-basically-do-nothing/https://baremarriage.com/2022/06/podcast-why-john-piper-should-stop-talking-about-marriage/Helpful Resources: Quiverfull by Kathryn JoyceArticle about Adoption by Kathryn JoyceNo Will of My Own by Jon ZensUntwisting Scriptures: Book 2 by Rebecca Davis

We talk with Rebecca Davis about her newest book - Untwisting Scriptures Book 4: Wolves, Hypocrisy, Sin Leveling, and Righteousness. It's a really good one! Get the book here: https://a.co/d/3NQ2trQ

We delve deep into the history of where modern patriarchy finds its roots. Since it isn't from the Bible where did it come from?The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Barr: https://amzn.to/3xcPDjQThe Other Half PodcastInterview with Beth Barr on Theology in the RawThe Bare Marriage PodcastQuiverfull by Kathryn JoyceCult of Domesticity Articles: https://www.thoughtco.com/cult-of-domesticity-4694493https://americainclass.org/the-cult-of-domesticity/https://psmag.com/social-justice/the-21st-century-cult-of-domesticity

We discuss the origins of Halloween and whether you can take your kids trick-or-treating. Has the church told the truth about Halloween?Books:Trick or Treat: The History of HalloweenThe Book of Hallowe'enPodcast Episodes about Samhain: https://peeranormal.com/podcast/peeranormal-18-samhain-and-halloween/About Witch hunts:https://www.historyextra.com/period/stuart/witch-hunters-podcast-marion-gibson/ About Salem: https://www.historyextra.com/podcast-series/salem-witch-trials-history-podcast-series/Articles:About Halloween: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Halloween

In this two part interview we have a conversation with Justin about his new book and his experience in the IFB. Trigger Warning: Sexual AbuseJustin's Book: Sheltered but Not Protected

In this two part interview we have a conversation with Justin about his new book and his experience in the IFB. Trigger Warning: Sexual AbuseJustin's Book: Sheltered but Not Protected

We explore the question of women in church leadership, and why that is one of the things that scares complementarians.Recommended Resource: Paul and Gender by Cynthia WestfallInterview with Complementarian Professor on Theology in the RawMarg Mowczko's Blog: https://margmowczko.com/margs-articles/

We discuss the differences between Complementarianism and Patriarchy. Is it really any better, or is it just a different name for the same thing?Links:CBE Website: https://www.cbeinternational.org/Episode from The Church Split: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/the-church-split-ep-51---gender-rolesSearching Together Website: https://www.searchingtogether.org/Webb's book on Women, etc.: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0830815619/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_8MH8W94GT7CH4B3X3Y4H Untwisting Scriptures. book 1: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0998198102/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_AQXHF16J1B1TZWWR0016

In this episode we examine more passages in the New Testament in more depth that may seem to support patriarchy. Resources: Heiser on Headcoverings: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-naked-bible-podcast/id961385822?i=1000430050017What Paul Really Said About Women by John Bristow: https://amzn.to/3xsI3lhThe Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Barr: https://amzn.to/3xcPDjQWhat's With Paul and Women by Jon Zens: https://amzn.to/3LLOpzZThe (now perhaps archived) ThatMom podcast: http://thatmom.com/

What does the Bible actually say about how women should function in the church? Does the so called "Biblical Patriarchy" movement really have a basis in Christianity and the Bible? We start into this discussion with interesting results.

We discuss whether the Old Testament teaches patriarchy, and how it fits in for New Testament believers. Then we get into the life of Jesus and how he treated women...very instructive!Recommended Resource: Own Your Life by Sally Clarkson: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1414391285/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_2Y9JCH1DT7MBDXVP4P86Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals by William Webb: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0830815619/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_ER5N9NNBQJ8BKFTPZ2FB

Beginning our study of Patriarchy with the scriptural basis (or lack thereof). We discuss what creation, the fall, and some NT passages that discuss them show us about how God views women.Recommended Resource: What Paul Really Said About Women by John Bristow: https://amzn.to/3xsI3lhThe Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Barr: https://amzn.to/3xcPDjQUntwisting Scriptures, Book 3 by Rebecca Davis: https://amzn.to/3r9zyHAWhat's With Paul and Women by Jon Zens: https://amzn.to/3LLOpzZ

Good News for pastors and all believers as we delve into the commonly misused titles and responsibilities often attached to "preachers" in the church.Recommended Resource: 58 to 0 by Jon Zens: https://amzn.to/3ui0NBSThe Roys Report - Bullies in the Pulpit: https://podcasts.apple.com/sr/podcast/bullies-in-the-pulpit/id1470242499?i=1000541368812

In this episode we examine a book that calls out some of the errors in IFB churches. Unfortunately it falls a bit short...4-Freedom podcast on Baptist Successionism: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/17-baptist-successionism-part-1-baptist-distinctives/id1517878135?i=1000493233283Sermon Series "How We Got our Bible": https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceonly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=tri-city&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=How+We+Got+Our+BibleMentioned Instagram Accounts: @doubtersdiary, @thechristianadvocate

We experienced this "repackaged" version of Gothard's teaching first hand at Youth Development Camp (YDC) while serving as counselors to young people from Falls Baptist Church. Based on the same misuse of scripture, but we got to see some of the ugly realities when this false teaching is used.Recommended Resource: Untwisting Scriptures Book 2 by Rebecca Davis: https://amzn.to/3glfFHEOther Resources:Tale of Three Kings by Gene Edwards: https://amzn.to/3gq5aTH

The "Umbrella of Protection" is one of the most pervasive false teachings on authority. Popularized by Bill Gothard in his materials it spread throughout the IFB and Homeschool movements. For more detailed information about the harm Gothard and his organization have done go to https://www.recoveringgrace.org/Recommended Resource: Untwisting Scripture Book 2 by Rebecca Davis: https://amzn.to/3glfFHE Other Resources:58 to 0 by John Zens: https://amzn.to/34zcCJf

What should we tell our kids about Santa Clause? Is there a place for Santa and Jesus in Christmas celebrations?Recommended Resources:https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/podcast/naked-bible-195-is-christmas-a-pagan-holiday/https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/should-you-tell-your-kids-santa-claus-is-real/id1510271421?i=1000543253525https://pambarnhill.com/why-advent/https://podtail.com/en/podcast/myths-and-legends/18-st-nick-rusty-chains-and-candy-canes/https://sallyclarkson.com/podcast/2018/12/2/episode-221-keeping-advent-hope-for-a-dark-world-with-malcolm-guite

We have a great time with Rebecca Davis, discussing her books (especially her new release) that examine scriptures that are often misused by abusive churches and Bible teachers.Recommended Resource: Untwisting Scriptures, Book 3: Your Words, Your Emotions - https://amzn.to/3rpvVhxRebecca's Blog: https://heresthejoy.com/Confusion to Clarity: https://www.confusiontoclaritynow.com/Called to Peace: https://www.calledtopeace.org/Heart for Survivors (Rebecca's Charity): https://heresthejoy.com/heart-for-survivors/Giveaway Link: https://www.instagram.com/p/CW60PyZgRsF/?utm_medium=copy_link

We continue our discussion of what the Bible actually teaches about who has spiritual authority and what that means. This time we focus on the epistles, and particularly some passages that have been misused in order to control people.* we apologize for the audio quality on some of these episodes, we are working on improving our setup *The Naked Bible Podcast with Dr. Michael Heiser: https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/Recommended Resources: The Bible Unfiltered by Michael Heiser: https://amzn.to/2QstGWlI Dare You Not to Bore Me with the Bible by Michael Heiser: https://amzn.to/3cdKOuGUntwisting Scriptures, book 2 by Rebecca Davis: https://amzn.to/3qCNElv

The beginning of a mini-series on the topic of spiritual authority - the misuse of which is one of the foundational errors that leads to spiritual abuse. We give some examples of what it looks like when spiritual authority is misused, and we look at what Jesus taught about spiritual authority.

We talk about our experience with the particular extreme courtship practices of the church we were in. Even more than "typical" courtship practice it's particularly detrimental to faith and relationships both at the time, and in the future.Rebecca Davis' book on Patriarchy: https://amzn.to/3paofyCRebecca Davis' Website: www.HeresTheJoy.com 

We discuss the teaching and methodology of courtship in more detail, and it turns out it's not really about faith and spirituality at all - it's about being able to control young people, even in major life decisions.Podcasts by ThatMom on Patriocentricity: http://thatmom.com/podcasts/patriarchy-patriocentricity-series/http://thatmom.com/podcasts/patriarchypatriocentricity-series-two-2010/Rebecca Davis' book on Patriarchy: https://amzn.to/3paofyCRebecca Davis' Website: www.HeresTheJoy.com

We discuss some myths about dating commonly taught by people who teach "courtship" in the IFB. Most people probably date, but in the circles we were in it was taught as wrong, using several of these myths.

We discuss the worst part of our experiences in spiritually abusive churches. "Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist" (George Carlin)Chris's Letter to BCM in 2019: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10tV0Czw6C1l92zvTxdI_y6rm6qdbz2uC/view?usp=sharingRachel's Letter to BCM in 2019: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oJLswM-TkgGLLOcJNDJ_VJYdjhFf_y7i/view?usp=sharing

We share the first part our of story - how we came to be in spiritually abusive churches; but also how we met and were set up to accept an abusive and controlling church/school environment. ...And how Chris got away with breaking rules at college.

We discuss the end results of legalism, as well as whether legalism is really dangerous in isolation. We also discuss the ramifications of legalism, shame, and toxic churches on individual believers. Recommended Resources: 1. Soul Repair by VanVonderen & Ryan: https://amzn.to/2YUy5Vg2. Own Your Life by Sally Clarkson: https://amzn.to/2Wn2pKs3. Desperate by Sarah Mae and Sally Clarkson : https://amzn.to/2M8AFVUOther books referenced in this episode:Toxic Faith by Arterburn & Felton: https://amzn.to/2WvRuxSTired of Trying to Measure Up by Jeff VanVonderen: https://amzn.to/2K8aBrj Families Where Grace is in Place by Jeff VanVonderen: https://amzn.to/2Wn0plq

We examine a specific kind of toxic environment, termed a "shame-based system" by Jeff VanVonderen in his book Tired of Trying to Measure Up.  We talk about how to recognize whether a church, family, or work environment is based on causing shame, and a little bit of how to deal with it.Recommended Resource: Tired of Trying to Measure Up  by Jeff VanVonderen: https://amzn.to/2K8aBrjBook on Anger by Gary Chapman: https://www.amazon.com/Anger-Powerful-Emotion-Gary-Chapman/dp/0802413145/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=anger+chapman&qid=1630271076&sr=8-2

In this episode we discuss why people become legalists, even though it's a miserable way to live. We also talk about how legalism is related to spiritual abuse.Recommended Resource: Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue: https://amzn.to/2WbMijt Other Resources:Broken Trust by F. Remy Diederich: https://amzn.to/2WqmuiRTired of Trying to Measure Up by Jeff VanVonderan: https://amzn.to/2K8aBrjPodcast by Dr. Michael Heiser on headcoverings in the Bible: https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/podcast/naked-bible-86-the-head-covering-of-1-corinthians-1113-15/

We discuss what Legalism is and how to recognize it. We also look at examples of legalism from the Bible, church history, and modern religious contexts.Recommended Resource: https://libertyforcaptives.com/2015/03/11/30-signs-of-legalism-a-checklist/Other Resources mentioned: Healing from Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue: https://amzn.to/2WbMijtBooks from Nathaniel Hawthorne dealing with abusive religion: The Scarlet Letter, "Young Goodman Brown", and "The Minister's Black Veil"

What do we mean by "spiritual trauma"? We talk about our background, how we became aware of spiritual abuse, and the basics of how to recognize high control groups and toxic leaders in religious and family settings.Characteristics of High Control Systems: http://cultresearch.org/help/characteristics-associated-with-cults/ Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue: https://amzn.to/2WbMijtBroken Trust by F. Remy Diederich: https://amzn.to/2WqmuiR