Podcasts about churches

Josh and Sam discuss why many churches have moved away from old-school hymns, not always because they reject them, but because worship culture has changed. Modern worship music is often easier to lead with a band, more familiar to younger generations, and shaped by digital platforms, conferences, and major worship publishers. But the disappearance of hymns can also come at a cost. Hymns often carry theological depth, congregational memory, and a sense of continuity with the broader church. In this episode, we discuss why hymns have faded in many churches and how leaders can reintroduce them wisely without turning worship into a generational battle. The post Why Don’t Churches Sing Old-School Hymns Anymore? appeared first on Church Answers.

Where you bank may seem like a purely practical decision. We often compare interest rates, fees, convenience, and technology—and those things matter. But for Christians, banking can also be viewed through the larger lens of stewardship. Every financial decision gives us an opportunity to consider how faithfully we are managing the resources God has entrusted to us. Aaron Caid, Chief Marketing Officer at AdelFi Christian Banking, joined the show today to discuss financial discipleship, the role of Christian financial institutions, and how everyday banking decisions can support work that advances the gospel. Banking as an Act of Stewardship Biblical stewardship begins with recognizing that everything ultimately belongs to God. The money we earn, save, spend, borrow, and give has been entrusted to us to manage wisely. That perspective can shape even routine financial decisions. “For Christians, our financial decisions are an act of stewardship,” Aaron says. Whether a family is preparing for the future, a church is expanding its outreach, or a ministry is developing its budget, finances touch nearly every area of life. For a Christian financial institution such as AdelFi, that means providing practical banking tools while keeping biblical stewardship at the center of its mission. Families still need checking accounts, savings tools, loans, and credit cards. Churches and ministries still need financing and cash-management solutions. But those services can be offered with an understanding of the faith and mission behind them. Greater Capacity to Serve The strength of a financial institution matters because it affects its ability to serve its members. For families, that may mean access to resources for managing everyday expenses, building savings, and borrowing wisely. For churches and ministries, it can mean working with financial professionals who understand the unique challenges of ministry—including cash flow, property needs, growth, and long-term planning. One example came during the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic. Calvary Chapel South Orange County had been holding services outdoors in an outlet mall parking lot while Southern California churches faced restrictions on indoor gatherings. During that period, the congregation grew significantly and eventually became larger than its previous indoor space could accommodate. The church needed a new facility. AdelFi helped provide financing that enabled the congregation to purchase a larger property. While the transaction involved a loan, its impact went beyond dollars and cents. A larger building gave the growing church a place to gather, build relationships, worship, and continue growing together. It shows how financial resources can serve a larger purpose when deployed thoughtfully. What Is Financial Discipleship? Christian stewardship isn't ultimately about accumulating as much money as possible. Financial discipleship is about becoming increasingly faithful in the way we handle what God provides. That includes cultivating wisdom, contentment, generosity, and faithfulness. Jesus makes the connection between our finances and our spiritual lives clear in Matthew 6. He teaches that we cannot serve both God and money and reminds us, “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also” (Matthew 6:21). Our financial habits can either reinforce or compete with the priorities we profess. Practically, financial discipleship may look remarkably ordinary. It can mean following a realistic spending plan, saving for future needs, avoiding unnecessary debt, practicing generosity, and making decisions based on biblical convictions rather than simply following cultural expectations. These habits aren't ends in themselves. They help us put money in its proper place—as a tool entrusted to us rather than a master that controls us. Can Where You Bank Make a Difference? Stewardship can also raise another question: What happens to our money after we deposit it? Financial institutions use deposits to support lending and other financial activity. That means Christians may want to consider not only the products a bank offers but also the purposes their financial institution helps support. At AdelFi, members' deposits help provide resources to serve Christian families, churches, and ministries. According to Aaron, AdelFi has funded more than $1 billion in ministry real estate loans, helping churches and ministries acquire or improve facilities while pursuing financially responsible solutions. The organization also offers products designed to connect everyday financial activity with generosity. Its Cash Rewards Visa®, for example, allows members to earn cash back, while AdelFi also gives to Christian ministries and missions when members use their cards. None of this means choosing a Christian financial institution is required for faithful stewardship. Christians can honor God through many different financial arrangements. But it reminds us that stewardship invites us to think intentionally about all our financial choices—including where we bank. Bringing Faith Into Everyday Financial Decisions Faithful stewardship isn't limited to the offering plate or the major financial decisions we make a few times in life. It reaches into the ordinary. How we budget. How we borrow. How we save. How we spend. And even where we choose to keep our money can reflect what we value. The goal isn't simply to make every financial decision appear “Christian.” It's to recognize that every dollar belongs to God and then prayerfully ask how we can manage His resources with wisdom, generosity, and faithfulness. When our financial choices are shaped by that perspective, even something as routine as choosing a bank can become another opportunity to align our money with our faith. To learn more about AdelFi Christian Banking and its Cash Rewards Visa®, visit FaithFi.com/Banking. Apply by December 31 to earn a $200 bonus, plus 1.5% cash back on every purchase and other benefits. With every swipe, AdelFi also gives to Christian charities. On Today's Program, Rob Answers Listener Questions: My husband and sister both passed away, and I received life insurance benefits from each. From a biblical perspective, should I tithe on those proceeds? Our younger daughter needs help with a down payment on property where she hopes to build a home. We'd like to help, but we still have a mortgage, only a few months of cash reserves, older vehicles, and several recent major expenses. Would helping her be wise, or would it put our own finances at too much risk? I'm retired, legally blind, and currently rent a home for $500 a month. The VA has approved grants to modify it for my needs, but my daughter thinks I should buy land and put a prefab home on it so I can build equity. Considering the added costs of ownership, would I be better off continuing to rent or buying a home? Resources Mentioned: Faithful Steward: FaithFi's Quarterly Magazine (Become a FaithFi Partner) AdelFi Christian Banking FaithFi Field Guide: How Much Money is Enough? Our Ultimate Treasure: A 21-Day Journey to Faithful Stewardship by Rob West Wisdom Over Wealth: 12 Lessons from Ecclesiastes on Money Look At The Sparrows: A 21-Day Devotional on Financial Fear and Anxiety Rich Toward God: A Study on the Parable of the Rich Fool Find a Certified Kingdom Advisor® (CKA) FaithFi App Remember, you can call in to ask your questions every weekday at (800) 525-7000. Faith & Finance is also available on Moody Radio Network and American Family Radio. You can also visit FaithFi.com to connect with our online community and partner with us as we help more people live as faithful stewards of God's resources. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Sam Hamstra, Lead Pastor of Anthem Church, a fast-growing, multi-ethnic and multi-generational church serving Northwest Indiana and Chicagoland. Anthem became an independent church in March 2020—the same week the world shut down—and has since grown to multiple locations and thousands of people. In this conversation, Sam shares how clarity around mission, values, discipleship, and vision has helped Anthem develop a distinct ministry culture and sustain healthy growth. Does your church know exactly who it is and how it does ministry? Are your leaders aligned around a shared playbook—or are you borrowing someone else's model without adapting it to your context? Sam offers practical lessons on creating organizational clarity that shapes everything from calendars to leadership development. Move from imitation to innovation. // Sam is quick to acknowledge how much Anthem learned from churches and networks that came before them. But even before Anthem launched, he began recognizing that another church's model could not simply be copied and pasted into Northwest Indiana. The local culture, demographics, ministry environment, and people were different. Healthy leaders learn from others while also doing the harder work of discerning what God is uniquely calling their church to become. Clarity takes courage. // Copying an established model feels safe because leaders can see evidence that it works somewhere else. Developing your own approach requires greater faith because the outcome is less predictable. Sam believes churches must have the courage to move into that uncertainty. Rather than endlessly chasing the next successful strategy, leaders should prayerfully identify the unique blueprint God has given their church and commit to it. Define your “way.” // Inspired by Patrick Lencioni's The Advantage, Sam and his leadership team spent roughly nine months working through five foundational questions: Why do we exist? How do we behave? What do we do? How do we live? Where are we going? Their answers eventually became what they call “The Anthem Way”—a framework that brings clarity to mission, values, discipleship, spiritual formation, and long-term vision. Mission and vision are not the same thing. // Anthem's mission is to lead people to know Christ and make Him known. That mission remains constant because it flows from the Great Commission. Vision answers a different question: where is God taking this particular church? Separating those ideas has helped Anthem distinguish between the timeless calling of the church and the specific future they believe God is leading them toward. Let your discipleship pathway drive the calendar. // One of the biggest benefits of clarity has been simplifying Anthem's yearly ministry calendar. Instead of allowing every ministry to bring new ideas and events to the table, leaders evaluate opportunities through their defined discipleship pathway. The result is greater focus and consistency. Sam says their annual rhythm has remained largely the same for years, helping both staff and attenders understand what comes next. Boring can be a strength. // Churches often feel pressure to constantly create something new, but Sam has learned that repetition can be one of the greatest drivers of health. Anthem maintains a weekly prayer gathering, predictable discipleship rhythms, and recurring ministry events rather than continually reinventing the calendar. The goal is not novelty. It is consistency around the few things the church believes matter most. Create intentional invite moments. // Anthem builds four major invite opportunities into its annual rhythm: Easter, a Summer Kickoff, Homecoming, and Christmas. These predictable moments give the congregation specific opportunities to invite friends and family. Sam has seen the church grow following these events because people know when the church is intentionally creating space for them to bring someone who may not normally attend. Values have to become behaviors. // Anthem's core values include “We Love People,” “We Choose Joy,” and “We Bleed Passion.” But Sam emphasizes that values only matter when people can see them lived out. Loving people means creating a culture where people can belong before they behave. Choosing joy means approaching ministry with gratitude rather than obligation. Bleeding passion means refusing to settle for the status quo and remaining willing to change as God leads. Use clarity to protect multisite culture. // As Anthem expands to additional locations, the Anthem Way provides clear boundaries for what must remain consistent. Sam is not claiming Anthem's approach is the only way to do church, but he does believe it is important for every one of their locations to understand and embody Anthem's distinct way of doing ministry. That documented clarity gives leaders freedom while protecting the culture across campuses. Check out Anthem Church’s About page to see how their story, mission, values, and discipleship pathway fit together. You can also follow @SamHamstra and @ThisIsAnthemChurch on Instagram. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. This is a funny one because literally yesterday I was talking to a church in a coaching call. We were talking about this exact issue that we’re going to unpack today. They’re wrestling with these things. I know that this is going to help you. So you’ve tuned in for a great conversation today with Sam Hamstra. Super excited to have him. He and his wife, Taylor, they founded Anthem Church in March 2020 with a vision and heart to lead people to know Christ and make them know known. Rich Birch — Over the past few years they have seen this mission become a reality, continues to grow. It’s a multi-ethnic, multi-generational family made up of thousands of people from all walks of life in Northwestern Indiana, Chicagoland, and beyond. It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country. So honored that you’re with us today, Sam. Welcome.Sam Hamstra — Rich, so honored to be with you. This is a full circle moment for me. I’ve been following you for quite some time. So super honored to be on your on your show.Rich Birch — Oh, come on. That’s I’m glad you’re here. We, we’ve got a lot to learn from you today. So March, 2020, it’s one of those dates that sticks in all of our brains. Cause like, we all know, what were you doing? March 15th, 2020. We all can say exactly what we’re, where we were. That’s a wild month to, to launch.Rich Birch — It’s funny because I keep bumping into people who are telling a similar story. They’re like, we started during the pandemic, right at the beginning, right after that sort of thing. Give us a picture today and kind of from that moment all the way on to today, kind of bring the story, bring us, tell us a little bit about Anthem. Give us a flavor of the church.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so we currently today we’re headquartered in Hammond, Indiana, which when we say Indiana, different people have different thoughts. But we’re we’re actually butting up to Chicago.Rich Birch — Yep.Sam Hamstra — Joking around right now, we’re going to be the future home of the Chicago Bears soon.Rich Birch — Nice.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. But um yeah, so we’re headquartered in Hammond. Our second location is in Merrillville, Indiana, about 30 minutes from here. So currently um our family’s grown to about 2,500 people in English. And we also have a Spanish service as well. And God’s done a phenomenal work over a six-year time frame.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so we did launch in March of 2020. Our first Sunday was the same Sunday the world shut down.Rich Birch — Wow.Sam Hamstra — And so the third week of March was our first service on the internet.Rich Birch — Dude, that’s amazing.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — That’s incredible.Sam Hamstra — Yes. So in God’s divine plan, kind of underneath our origin story, we we were actually a part of a church in Tinley Park, Illinois. We were a location of that church called Christian Life Center.Sam Hamstra — And our senior pastor and I, Pastor Jerry McQuay, we had been having an ongoing conversation about him making us independent, which is a whole long story. And he decided to really lean into what he believed God was doing in our lives and in this region and made us independent in God’s divine plan. That started in March of 2020. Rich Birch — Wow.Sam Hamstra — And so we transitioned from being a multi part of a multi site church a location up to being independent in March. And yeah, we started with nothing. We didn’t have any cameras, didn’t have anything. I called our media guy and said, do you have anything at your house? And he brought it. Yeah.Rich Birch — What gear you got in your basement? Yeah, that’s amazing.Sam Hamstra — Yeah and he he brought a camera from his house. And yeah, that’s how we started. One continuous shot streaming online. And that was the start of Anthem Church in March of 2020.Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah, that’s amazing.Sam Hamstra — So God’s done a great work.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. That’s incredible. That’s cool to hear and fun to see where it’s come, you know, since then. When you look back on that experience, you know, a lot of what you’re trying to define in those early days of a church, you’re trying to bring clarity to like, what is our approach? And part of what we do is you know, we there’s ah there’s, I think, some good copying and pasting. You’re like, hey, here’s the way they do it over here. Maybe we could try a little bit that. But then eventually you start kind of coming up with your own way. You kind of birth your own a approach, playbook, you might call it. Rich Birch — When did you start to feel… ah the kind of transition from, hey, I just want to do it like in this case, either CLC or another church over there. And you started to realize, hey, there’s something unique here at Anthem. And we got to try to define some of that. Talk us through maybe from um a timeline point of view or from a revelation point of view, like, oh, this is kind of things I started to see. Talk us through what that looked like.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so about two years before we launched Anthem, God started to really kind of do a work in our heart just on unique DNA. And we were coming out of like heavily influenced by ARC, Church of the Highlands, and learned so much from there.Sam Hamstra — And we’re seeing just how like clarity really was so important on where we’re going.Sam Hamstra — And so we were coming in there and I just was really praying and seeking the Lord on, okay, this is great. But in our context here, there’s some some differences, there’s some nuances.Sam Hamstra — This is, um we’re over here. what What does this look like here? And so really took the foundation of that and started looking at what does this look like? So when we started Anthem, it was with the thought of, we really want to lean into this unique blueprint of how God designed us and what God has called us to here. Sam Hamstra — So it really started from the jump from from day one. And so but it was a couple years ahead of time to say, OK, this is great. Let’s let’s use this. Let’s we’ve been imitating. Let’s imitate now move to a little bit of innovation and what the Lord would have for us.Rich Birch — Yeah, and there’s obviously there’s like an art and science to that, right? There’s like the, the yeah, insert whatever church, Church of the Highlands is fantastic. They’re doing a great thing, but you’re not Birmingham, Alabama. And you know and so there’s cultural differences, there’s community differences, there’s different resources and all that. That’s like the kind of science-y part of it. Rich Birch — But then there’s the art part of it, which is a little bit more… like intuitives, it’s like vibes, that kind of thing. How did you discern, okay, what are those things that we should be thinking about that are different that you start, or maybe things you started to see, evidence you started to see like, oh, maybe this isn’t working, just importing. Was there evidence of that that you saw?Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so like, and it was like small things, you know, just on approach to Sunday service. Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — You know, like, hey, this is open door, we don’t do this on Sunday. And we had just been starting to see like pretty early on, we’re we’re reaching lost people through like a hard approach to the gospel.Sam Hamstra — And it was just like, it wasn’t really seeker sensitive. Rich Birch — Sure.Sam Hamstra — It wasn’t, not saying they are, but just, it was just a little bit different in in our context where people were coming from. On the multi-ethnic side, it was just some approaches being super intentional with sounds, sights, all of that in in our context. And so, and even on the discipleship model, you know, groups, what kind of groups are we doing? How are we setting these up?Sam Hamstra — And so it was definitely like these nuances in the different categories, I would say, of discipleship that we started to pay attention to. That that was really the start, I think, of innovating what we have now.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Why do you think so many of us just reach for someone else’s model rather than doing the longer, harder, deeper, like it’s more annoying work to try to define you know our own thing and and then ultimately to document it which we’re going to get to here. what What did you actually do to kind of try to codify that? But why do you think we avoid that as leaders?Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so I think on one end, what’s established, you can see that the model works. And so um there’s great success you’re seeing. I mean, it’s working everywhere. And so I think it’s safe. And so deep down, it’s like this is established. I see it work. And so I can kind of press play on this. And and I know to a level that this this works. Sam Hamstra — And so it takes courage to do something that you haven’t seen before. Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — And deep, deep down, i think in our hearts, to me, that’s probably foundational thing. It’s like, man, I haven’t really seen this so his is going to require some courage, require some faith to press into the unknown.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Sam Hamstra — And so I do think that unknown word leads to some different decisions sometimes.Rich Birch — Well, and your church is an interesting um example just because it’s grown so quickly. I, you know, even in the… the lead up to it, I was thinking about, you know, the word, the term church plant.Rich Birch — Like, I don’t know when that term, you know, I was talking with a church that had been around for 30 years and they’re a big church. They’re like 20,000 people. And they, the lead pastor was like, well, we still think of ourselves as a church plant. And I’m like, yeah, I don’t at some point you stop being a church plant and just be, you start being a church. Rich Birch — And I think actually this is one of those, one of those differentiations is when you start saying, okay, like we’re going to, we believe that kind of God’s called us to this unique thing. There’s something in there. You built something that I think you call the Anthem Way. Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — Walk us through what that is. How does it function? What is the Anthem Way? Help us understand that.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so this was actually birthed in an odd place. I was reading “The Advantage” by Patrick Lencioni,…Rich Birch — Yeah. Sam Hamstra — …and he was talking about organizational health, and one of the keys is clarity. Rich Birch — Yes.Sam Hamstra — And I had I have kind of, I’m somewhat of a mutt in church in my upbringing. Rich Birch — Love it.Sam Hamstra — So I’ve been in a lot of different environments and seen to a lot of different things. And so it was really just kind of like looking like, how can we just be crystal clear on who we are, where we’re going and different things. And so I read that book and in that book, he actually laid out these questions that he was like kind of pointing to every successful organization needs to answer.Sam Hamstra — And Iwas kind of seeing that with some of the stuff I’ve been hearing. And I’m like, and there’s a couple of missing pieces for me that he pointed to that I thought was so important in church world that I would actually point to that have been some of the biggest things I think that have been what I would call probably the secret sauce of what we’ve seen as far as clarity. Sam Hamstra — Just the separation of something simple, but the difference between mission and vision, you know, why we exist compared to where we’re going. And so, yeah, I read that book and in there he laid out questions that you need to answer. I took that to our leadership team and we wrestled with these probably for about nine months. Sam Hamstra — I’m just going back and forth on wording, how we say things. question by question in five different questions. We answered those and we gave it a name called the Anthem Way. And so that was the foundation, but I want to give credit where credit is due. It came through the book, The Advantage by Patrick Lencioni. Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, no, that’s great. That’s fantastic. And I, you know, one of the things I love that you’ve hit on here is I’ve talked in other contexts that our vision, well, this is the problem with with vision, mission stuff is it’s like, first you have to have a conversation. How do you define vision? How do you define mission?Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — But the big thing that we’re called to, the big idea, it comes from Jesus, right? We’re supposed to reach people and grow them up in in in relationship with him. All churches should have that as their core. That is at the core of what we do. Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — But getting clear on how we do that, you know, these other questions I’m assuming has helped give you a bit of a more of an edge, something that’s a little bit different. Do you want to rattle through the five questions… Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and maybe some high level, I know we can’t get into all the detail, but kind of high level how you’ve answered it. And then the follow-up I’m going ask you is, which are those couple that have given you what you think are the biggest distinctives around Anthem… Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Okay. Rich Birch — …that kind of that that kind of, um you know, that provide that edge that’s a little different, you think.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. So five questions and I’ll rattle them off quick. But so first one is why do we exist? Mission – the mission question, um which you just said it, I 100% agree, you know, every church really is called to the same thing. Let’s make disciples who make disciples, the Great Commission is still our first priority.Sam Hamstra — And so the way we say that is to lead people to know Christ and make them known. That was something we just prayed into language. We want to share language that people could really rally around. Sam Hamstra — Next question is how do we behave? The values question. We wanted to boil down in our culture those not aspirational values like truly who we are. So we boil those down to three things and wrestle with the language a lot. We wanted them actionable, but we choose joy. We love people and we believe passion. Sam Hamstra — And those all have disclaimers and really feed into our culture of what we call multi-everything. We love people from all walks of life, belong before you behave, and all that falls in there.Sam Hamstra — What do we do? Patrick Lencioni was talking about how that’s really your your business definition, so to speak, not for external use, but internal. We answered that with, we provide defined discipleship pathway.Sam Hamstra — It’s what we do day in and day out. It’s why we wake up in the morning. We’re not trying to reinvent the wheel. We’re not a country club. We’re not here to make money, we’re a church and and this is this is how we do, like what we do to ah to reach our why.Sam Hamstra — How we live is the spiritual question for us. We wanna make disciples. So we wanted to be able to weigh spiritually what a disciple is. And so we looked at Acts 2:42, which we felt like was a really good, definition of these handles on a disciple. And so we have five kind of disclaimers on what we want to see in our people at our church. And we offer resources on those, but from daily devotion to prayer to we share our Jesus story. How do you testify? How do we share? How do we make Christ known?Sam Hamstra — And then the last one is where are we going, which is the vision question. And we’ve we’re wrestling with the timing right now. We currently have a 10 year vision statement, which is just kind of pointers on like, this is where we believe God is taking us as a people.Sam Hamstra — And so those five questions are give us the framework for what we call the Anthem Way. What I’ve seen, as basic as it sounds and in our context. And I don’t know if this resonates with anybody. One of the most frustrating meetings I had in church context was the yearly calendar meeting.Rich Birch — Yeah, so true.Sam Hamstra — And I just felt like everybody was coming every year with their own ideas. Some of them had to do with our mission, some didn’t. And these are just in past experiences. And so it just felt like everybody was trying to, and some, you know, just different reasons, good, bad, indifferent.Sam Hamstra — And what what gave me great clarity was to look at our defined discipleship pathway and say, this is how we create our calendar. And um that’s been one thing that has simplified everything for us.Sam Hamstra — So every year in the last six years, our our yearly calendar flow has been the same. And our people are starting to understand it. The next steps fall within it when we even, you know, baptisms, we’re doing it this time. And So that’s been one thing is basically that sounds like what do we do?Rich Birch — No, no, that’s good. I like it.Sam Hamstra — I found a lot of confusion on that in the past, on like, how do we do groups? How do we have services? To define everything within that in the discipleship pathway, to me has been life-giving, not only for us as a team, but as as our church as well.Rich Birch — Yeah. Pull that apart a little bit more. I think, because I think this is where we fall down on this type of work is, you know, and, and I know it’s none of the people that are listening in, but there are churches that like, they do a retreat and we’re like, we’re going away. We’re going we’re reading Lencioni. We’re going to define the five questions. We even make a snappy poster and we put it up on the wall. And then we go back to business as usual. It’s the same thing we’ve always done. But you’ve been able to make the connection there, particularly with the calendar.Rich Birch — Maybe talk us through, give us some examples of how this work is shaping, how you’re actually defining, you know, how you operate as a church.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so one example I would say is prayer. I had somebody call me and I like to think our prayer culture is strong. And they said, how did you get your prayer culture strong? And I said, well, this is really mind blowing. We have a weekly prayer meeting.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Sam Hamstra — And so because of that, and and still as the lead pastor still today, I take responsibility for leading that because I believe it’s it’s a high value for the church. Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — So it’s on the calendar. We you know And we’re not adding to it. It’s just 6 p.m. to 7 every Thursday. And we support it, which I think is the secondary layer behind that because it’s important. Now we have staff support. We have worship team support. We’re, we’re like staying very focused, on a few things rather than getting broad and going to a retreat and saying, this is a silver bullet. I don’t think there, I think the whole thing is a silver bullet, the whole pathway.Rich Birch — Right. Sure.Sam Hamstra — And so we always say, you know, I took this from somebody, but, you know, we want to be Ruth’s Chris, not Ponderosa. We want a one page menu and we really want to just do that.Rich Birch — Yep.Sam Hamstra — And it might even get boring. And we we’re trying to learn that boring is good.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Boring stuff grows churches. I love it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — One of those five is sharing Jesus. Every disciple has one mission, to make Christ known. We don’t keep the gospel to ourselves. We share it through our words, our actions, our lives, wherever we go. We carry the hope of Jesus to a world that needs him.Rich Birch — Unpack some ways that that value drives behavior at the church, that actually drives calendaring and and you know what you’re talking about, that sort of thing.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so deep, you know, we always want to empower everybody to be inviters and not just share. I think the key word in that is share your Jesus story. You know, we have to be people who understand how to share a testimony outside the four walls with it, you know, with a pretty quick invite to be like, hey, come be part of this community if you don’t have a community.Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — And so that is really through calendaring. We that’s really probably intrinsically baked into what we’re doing. So anytime I bring a guest to church, I’m saying it from the pulpit. And this is my friend. They’re here. I invited celebrating those through baptisms.Sam Hamstra — We let people testify of so you’re hearing stories of that. And then really resourcing people to make Christ known by sharing their story, teaching them how to do that.Sam Hamstra — So In the context of the calendar, um you know I took this from your playbook, sir, so thank you. We wanted to create four big events in our flywheel… Rich Birch — Yep. Love it. Sam Hamstra — …that are big invite events, that these are the moments where you need to bring 10 people. Rich Birch — Right. Sam Hamstra — We have found in our calendar since day one that we are seeing people respond to that and our church grows after every single time we do a big event. Rich Birch — That’s great.Sam Hamstra — And so we’re we’re doing four quarterly things.Rich Birch — Are those are those four the same every year? Are they, are they, yeah.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, yes.Rich Birch — So what are they? What are those four? If you don’t want me asking.Sam Hamstra — So, you know, Easter, of course… Rich Birch — Yep. Sam Hamstra — …summer kickoff was something we just created… Rich Birch — Yeah, great. Sam Hamstra — …to start the first Sunday of June. We rented a football field and we just say, bring everybody. We don’t… Rich Birch — That’s great. Sam Hamstra — …in our culture here, this is one thing, like, we’re like, we don’t shrink in the summer. This is a great time to grow.Rich Birch — Keep going forward. Yep. Love it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. And then we created something years ago called Homecoming, just, you know, it was really show up Sunday, invite day. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yep. Sam Hamstra — And then Christmas. Rich Birch — Love it.Sam Hamstra — So those are our four homecomings in November on the calendar. It just kind of flows quarterly for us that way.Rich Birch — That’s great. I love it. Well, I love what we’ve seen in fastest growing church in the country, friends that are listening in, is, you know, lots of churches will get, they have two big days, Christmas and Easter. But what we see is the behavior that you’re doing, which is you kind of end up having to make up a couple other days where you’re kind of injecting energy. We’re recording this in the summertime. You know, lots of churches have pulled a page out of Life Church’s book around At the Movies. And they, at the movies is one of their biggest attended days of the year on the the front end of that.Rich Birch — It’s just made up. There’s no reason for you to come the first week of August… Sam Hamstra — Yeah, absolutely. Rich Birch — …but they’ve decided, hey, we’re going to do that. That’s great. So we’re going to link to your about page where a lot of this is on that that page.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — On the how our core values, how we behave: We love people. We bleed passion. We choose joy. There’s some unique stuff in there. So talk me through. We love people, I think could be universally true of lots of churches… Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — …but I’m not sure that every church would say we bleed passion. We choose joy. Talk me through those as how those are kind of a unique thing that is helping you define what it means to be Anthem.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so you know on the love people thing, is you do hear that a lot. And I found there’s a difference between hearing it than living it out. And in religious environments sometimes, you know, I think we all pray we wanna reach the lost until you reach the lost. Rich Birch — True.Sam Hamstra — And our first service, our first Easter Sunday here, we only had one door into our auditorium. And I still remember we had the whole back of the auditorium smelled like weed.Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Okay. Love it.Sam Hamstra — And it was like this tense moment, you know, like of like, okay, this is what we pray for.Rich Birch — Yes.Sam Hamstra — And kind of diving deep into that. So we really own that language within that of we belong before we behave. And so we’re, you know, you can come from all walks of life and we believe Jesus died for all people. So we love all people.Sam Hamstra — And then the we choose joy…Rich Birch — I love that. Before we move on, the thing I love about that… Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — …that you’re calling out, that I do think is a nuance that we miss in too many churches, which is oftentimes we say we want to reach people. But what that comes with is messy pastoral care, hard conversations, stuff that doesn’t make sense, and long nights. Like, it’s just hard. Rich Birch — And, um you know, if you’re, it’s easy to reach Christians from the other church across town. It’s hard to reach people who don’t normally journey in this stuff.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — And I love I love that story, even of your opening weekend with the the smell of weed in the back of the room.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — I love it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Definitely messy.Rich Birch — That’s great. Yes, yes, love it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. You know, the “We choose joy” has just been, um i think one of the greatest testimonies we had was from somebody that just, it was their first time guest. So like, man, everybody feels like they’re the same here. Everybody’s so happy. And we just wanted to build in just this, we believe that, you know, joy should be a badge that every believer wears. It’s just been, you know, you go into the different environments and some people just, it seems like a chore to be alive.Sam Hamstra — And so we just wanted to drive in. This is a privilege to be part of what God is doing in the earth in this hour, even if it doesn’t look perfect. Rich Birch — That’s great. Sam Hamstra — And then with “We bleed passion”, um that’s really our way to say here, you know, if you’re looking for a place that’s content with status quo, you’re probably not going to like it here. We’re always going to be changing. We’re always going to be moving. We’re always going to be shifting. We always want to go with where the Lord is leading. And so we’re a sending church. Don’t get comfortable. There’s always going to be more services. There’s always going to be new churches. Sam Hamstra — So we tried to to really get that in the DNA from the front side.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love it.Rich Birch — I love that “we choose joy”. When I was at Liquid Church, are one of our three in this in this coupling was “Church is fun”. And you know the way we would talk about that is we would say, you know we we we say good news or we say gospel. We’re like, we should be gospel people or we should be good news people. Rich Birch — But what that actually means, how that actually should work itself out in our culture is when people interact with us, those people are a lot of fun to be around. Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — Because they’re redeemed people who have figured out, man, we’re following a God who loves us dearly. So what that should actually like, I love the way you’ve said it, we choose joy. Joy should be the natural outcome of our churches… Sam Hamstra — Yes. Rich Birch — …which is, again, that should not be rocket science, but it’s amazing how much that is a cultural difference or can be a huge cultural difference in many churches.Sam Hamstra — Yes. 100%. Yep.Rich Birch — That’s cool. So um you’ve been using this really throughout your how you develop leaders, how you onboard people, how you, you know, how do you come back to this time and time again? What are you using? How are you using these tools in your leadership development, in your raising up of volunteers, that sort of thing?Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so foundationally, I got to give credit where credit is due once again on this. I heard University of Kentucky’s baseball coach say this about culture, and it was like the best thing I’ve ever heard. He totally transformed his program, and he said it was culture at at the root of it. He said culture is every day. Culture is what you accept, and culture is what you reinforce.Rich Birch — It’s good.Sam Hamstra — And so we try to keep that in front of us as much as we can. It’s you know not something we just say we want to lead the way every day. So within these three, we actually just came out with 10 leadership values that all fit within those three…Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool.Sam Hamstra — …that give a little more language to our leadership, like, you know, we love people, so we park in back. And so really speaking to the culture of, you know, we put other people first, we serve. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Sam Hamstra — And so, you know, we try to outdo each other. You know, I park about a half mile away from church on Sundays. We don’t we don’t do pastor parking, you know, or anything like that. umAnd so just, it’s every day.Rich Birch — Yes.Sam Hamstra — We do a value at every single one of our pre-service huddles on Sunday. So we’re taking those three values every Sunday, one, here’s what we’re doing.Sam Hamstra — And then Leadership Pipeline, we implemented this two years ago and we’re teaching our Anthem way across the board to a new set of leaders three times a year. And so we really zone in on culture a lot. We’ve just realized people coming from a lot of different places and what makes our culture, our culture are these distinctives. And so we’re teaching those and then really trying to walk them out. And the best testimony we’ve been hearing is people say, yeah, we see that in the leadership of the church. So that’s been really cool to hear.Rich Birch — That’s really cool. I love it. And friends, this just reminds me of the like such a foundational thing we’ve all got to get right and work on and then repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.Rich Birch — We’ve got to keep on top of this language and and just come back to it time and time again. So you’re multi-site, you’re you’re going to launch more campuses down the road. Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — How does this tie into that conversation around, you know, there can be in you know, some multi-site churches, there’s like this tension of uniformity, you know, versus autonomy. And like, how how does that how does how does your thinking work out with the Anthem Way in multiple locations?Sam Hamstra — Yeah. So I want to preface this with I’m new, so I am figuring this out in real time. Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Sam Hamstra — I’m coming from from being a campus pastor to now being in the position I’m in. We’re two years into our first ah plant location campus. So and we’ve seen it be successful.Sam Hamstra — But what we’ve agreed on is we are going to be uniform in the Anthem Way. So we’re choosing uniformity and everything that falls within that box of the Anthem Way. Um, and so that has been like the running lanes for us to define what we’re doing, how we’re doing it, the way we talk, the way we move, our style of church, um, and all of that. So that’s been, you know, we’ve been really struggling with, with, with what you just said, that uniformity versus unity versus, you know, autonomy. Sam Hamstra — And so, the Anthem Way is to become our framework on how we’re starting locations. And we feel like as long as everybody’s in sync with all, and it and it entails a lot, right? I mean, how we do church, our approach to a lot of things.Sam Hamstra — And so that’s been that’s been our overarching theme is we want to be uniform in this. Rich Birch — yeah that’s good. Sam Hamstra — And so that’s what we’ve been trying to make sure it’s documented, ready to go.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s an interesting, that’s like a, we could have a whole other half an hour just on on on that issue.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — But one of the things we have seen over the long arc of the multi-site movement is churches that are choosing clarity and um and more, yeah, an understanding of, in your case, what is Anthem and how do we do what we do, those churches are the churches that, from my perspective, and not just statistically, are actually benefiting more from the multi-site movement. Rich Birch — The churches where they’re like, hey, let’s spend a lot of time. It can actually be the worst model because it’s like, we have a lot of people thinking about all the different ways you could potentially do church. As opposed to saying, no, no, like this is the way we’re not, we’re not saying this is the best way. We’re just saying it’s our way. We’re not saying that this is the only way to do it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — We’re just saying this is the way we do it. And, um and we’re okay with that. We’re settled on on that as an issue.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. That’s good. That’s good.Rich Birch — That’s interesting. Is there anything that changed or that has changed as you, I realize you’ve influenced ben to this from the beginning, but like, has there been anything that has kind of changed as you got clearer on the Anthem Way over the over the years? You know, something you cut or improved or, you know, is there anything that jumps to mind on that front?Sam Hamstra — Yeah, we’re would I might use the word refined rather than changed. Rich Birch — Sure. Yep, that’s good. Sam Hamstra — I was just talking to our discipleship director this morning just on, you know, is there is there a small group model? So like our three kind of handles in our discipleship pathway are know Christ, grow in Christ, and and make Christ known.Sam Hamstra — And, you know, our small group model isn’t working. We added what we call the Mosaic School of Ministry, which is is another thing in Grow. And we’ve actually seen way more interest and success in that. And so, you know, we have a way higher percentage right now going through what we call a School of Ministry, which is classes and and discipleship then we’re getting in small groups. Sam Hamstra — And so we’ve been just kind of wrestling with that a little bit. Like, is that culture, is it good, is it bad? And so I think those those refining moments have have really changed. We started off, though, I feel soft saying this, but it worked in our context. But we would start every year with 21 days of prayer and fasting in the beginning. And do 21 days again in the fall.Rich Birch — Love it.Sam Hamstra — We’ve actually gone down to seven days to start the year. There’s seven days in the fall. We just feel like we’re seeing actually better results with more people getting involved just with those minor tweaks, just to say this…Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Sam Hamstra — …his is we’re we’re seeing bigger impact there. Rich Birch — Sure. Sam Hamstra — But so I think those refining things have been really good.Rich Birch — Has there been any of that refining that has come not from you, but from a member of your team? Like, has anyone called you out or called the church out on like, hey, like on prayer or on any of these where, you know, like when that’s happened in my life, I kind of like that. Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — I’m like, oh, well, that’s a pleasant thing that just happened there, even though it feels weird to be the person being called out.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — Have you had any experiences like that?Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Yes. I’m laughing because, yeah, I’ve had quite a few. I could point to the one with prayer fasting. Rich Birch — Yes. So somebody on our team was like, hey, pastor, you know that there’s really no a place in the Bible where there’s a three week corporate fast. Rich Birch — Sure. Sam Hamstra — Yeah like where the whole church is coming together for three weeks and I’m like well I got a challenge, I’m gonna look. And I’m like sure enough you know, I’m maybe somebody could find it, but it was like these times and seasons where people come together for specific things of like, oh man you’re right. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, love it. Sam Hamstra — So and so that was like one of those um yeah it’s it’s definitely happened quite quite a bit and so which I love that too and so it’s been such a blessing of solid team that feels free to speak when when they need to.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Well, this has been a good conversation, just as we’re kind of coming to land. If you think about a church out there that feels like okay they’ve listened to this and they’re like okay, we maybe they’ve opened up your website. And they’re like, hey, we’re not as clear on this that as we could be, we need to get much clearer on that.Rich Birch — What’s kind of one first step that you would encourage people to take? What would be kind of the best first step towards getting clarity on this front?Sam Hamstra — Write the vision, make it plain so that he that reads it may run.Rich Birch — Dude, I love it. And with that, we end the episode. That’s fantastic. No, that’s great. Unpack that a little bit.Sam Hamstra — Um, you know, I for so much of my life, I was always looking to be so unique and so different. Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — And I felt like I just needed the next best thing. And it was wasn’t until I just locked into this is what the Lord has for us. And it might sound like somebody else it might look and that’s OK, but this going to be very unique to us. And this is what we’re doing. And just to be very clear on that and then just this is for me, but I get bored so easily. And to just, just not get bored and just keep doing the same thing in the same direction day after day.Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — And in that that flywheel, to use your words, it does work. And just to see that go and to to get very clear and and simple and and let people know where you’re going and just keep saying the same thing over and over is so life-giving.Rich Birch — That’s so good. So good.Rich Birch — Well, I really appreciate you being here today. If we want to send people anywhere online to track with you or to track with the church, where do we want to send them?Sam Hamstra — So first name, last name would be all my personal stuff. So @samhamstra, last name H-A-M-S-T-R-A.Sam Hamstra — And all church stuff is weareanthemchurch.com. And then weareanthemchurch on social as well.Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Appreciate that, Sam. Thanks so much for being here. Honored that you take some time to be with us today.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, thanks so much, Rich, my honor.

A Duke University program is training rural faith leaders to educate residents and provide relief during heat waves. Learn more at https://www.yaleclimateconnections.org/ 

What if your faith could shape the way you build, market, and grow your therapy practice? In this episode, I sit down with Whitney Owens, founder of Wise Practice Consulting, to talk about the unique business considerations that come with building a faith-based practice. We talk about marketing to churches, understanding how different churches approach therapy, and why relationship-building is often far more effective than a traditional sales pitch. Whitney also shares how therapists can create meaningful connections with pastors, provide value to churches, navigate dual relationships, and turn those relationships into referrals and community collaborations. We also talk about the spectrum of faith-based practices and how you can incorporate faith into your branding and practice in a way that feels authentic to you. Topics Covered in this Episode: 3:14 - The first step to connecting with churches 5:35 - Why warm introductions can change everything 8:11 - What pastors actually need from therapists 11:10 - Turning relationships into referrals and collaboration 13:30 - One creative way to become a church's go-to therapist 15:16 - Finding your place on the faith-based practice spectrum 18:05 - Building a business around both strategy and faith   If you're a therapist who wants to grow a practice that reflects your values while serving your community, tune into this episode for ideas to help you think differently about networking, referrals, marketing, and what a faith-based practice can actually look like.   Resources Mentioned: Connect with Whitney: https://www.wisepracticeconsulting.com/   Free Tips For Marketing and Networking with Churches: https://wisepracticeconsulting.aweb.page/p/7a89ac77-233e-4785-b25f-de5fa6860551   Listen to the Wise Practice Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@wisepracticeconsulting  Find out more about Alma here: helloalma.com/danielle Take 50% off your first 3 months of Simple Practice + a 7 day free trial using the link: simplepractice.com/danielle   Fill Up Therapists: $0-$60k  If you are needing more private pay clients in your practice in 2026, the Practice Accelerator is the perfect fit for you. Use the code ALLIN as a podcast listener to get $100 off at checkout.    Scale Up Therapists: $60-$200k+ Group practice owners, content creators and therapists scaling beyond 1-1.  Apply here for the next round of Scale Up Mastermind where I help therapists create additional revenue streams and scale to multi six and seven figures.

I have typically read Paul's letter to Rome like it was an essay written for the church at large for all times and for all places.  In fact Paul, Jesus' apostle to the nations, in about 57 A.D., wrote a pastoral letter to several house churches in Rome. He mentions 26 members of the Roman church by name in chapter 16.  He knew a lot about the churches and he was very concerned with simmering divisions within those churches.  The churches were composed of a great diversity of folks, Jews and Gentiles, slave and free, as well as male and female.  A dispute was heating up in the church between a group that Paul called the "Weak," primarily Jewish believers, and a group that Paul called the "Strong," primarily Gentile believers.  Neither group had much use for the other and that was the problem!  He had strong words for both groups. The issues have to do with the place of circumcision, sabbath keeping, and the Jewish food laws in the life of the Churches.  Paul used eleven chapters to give the churches a solid Christ centered foundation on which to live together as "One People of God."  His overriding message was that one church, composed of Jews and Gentiles, living to the Glory of God, is the will of the LORD God.  He declared in chapter 12, "All of us are members one of another."  He followed up this declarative in chapter 15 with the imperative:  "Welcome each other as Christ has welcomed you, for the Glory of God." Tom Wright was recently asked, "What about today's church would most disturb the apostle Paul?" To which he replied. "Our many, many divisions and our LACK OF CONCERN about it." Come on this journey with us through Paul's wonderful letter which invites us to rediscover the "Power of Oneness."

This week we talk Dinners, Churches in Parks, Elders Retreats, and of course, Philippians 3:!-4:1. Our main topic was how we should rejoice and stand firm as Christians, and how both things are accomplished by setting our eyes on Jesus.

EVERYONE who signs up to my giveaway will receive a FREE Rose suction toy with their @bellesaco order!

What happens when the church's desire for growth becomes a form of idolatry? Andrew Root returns to Future Christian to discuss his new book, Baal and the Gods of More: Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry. Root argues that churches across the theological spectrum have become captured by a logic of escalation: more people, more resources, more innovation, more relevance, more affirmation. The problem is that there is never a point when we can finally say, “Enough.” Drawing connections between the worship of Baal in the Old Testament, modern capitalism, and contemporary church growth, Loren and Andy explore what churches believe will actually save them. They discuss Root's categories of “techno-optimists” and “identitarians”—two groups that may appear opposed but can share the assumption that the church will survive if it can simply accumulate enough of the right kind of capital. Together they explore: When church growth becomes a form of idolatry Why churches struggle to ever say “enough” Techno-optimists, identitarians, and competing visions of church renewal Why money can function as more “real” than God in church decision-making The relationship between economic prosperity and American Protestantism Why the church keeps trying to recover its golden age Prayer, confession, and discerning where God is actually at work Andrew Root is the Carrie Olson Baalson professor of youth and family ministry at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. He writes and researches in areas of theology, ministry, culture and younger generations.  His recent books are Churches and the Crisis of Decline, When Church Stops Working, and The Church After Innovation. Andy has worked in congregations, parachurch ministries, and social service programs. He lives in St. Paul with his wife Kara, two children, Owen and Maisy, and their dog. When not reading, writing, or teaching, Andy spends far too much time watching TV and movies. Mentioned Resources:

A new opinion from Idaho Attorney General Raúl Labrador could give churches a bigger role in the state's abortion fight while keeping the identities of some donors private from the public.

Here, Becky and Kerry are discussing yet another reason some young adult Christians told them they left Churches of Christ: they felt the church had waded into partisan politics.  In this episode, they discuss Christian nationalism and offer a word of encouragement to those who have left and to the church: don't confuse Christian nationalism with political disagreement; and don't merge what God has not joined.

Why don't people give more? Is it simply because they can't afford to, or are there deeper barriers keeping people from growing in generosity? In this episode of the Stewardship Leader Podcast, Leo Sabo continues his conversation with Ron Sellers of Grey Matter Research to examine what the data reveals about generosity. They discuss financial capacity, why people dramatically overestimate the percentage of income they give, whether charitable giving competes with church giving, and the real reasons people say they aren't more generous. The conversation concludes with an important challenge for church leaders: generosity is part of lifelong discipleship, and helping people grow may mean guiding them toward faithful, achievable next steps rather than simply presenting an end goal.Key Takeaways Most donors aren't giving out of financial hardship. Only 6% describe their giving as a significant financial sacrifice, while four out of ten say it involves no sacrifice at all.Higher income doesn't automatically produce greater generosity. When generosity is measured as a percentage of income, the differences between income groups are surprisingly small.People understand their giving in dollars much better than percentages. This creates a significant challenge when churches talk about tithing because tithing is inherently percentage-based.People substantially overestimate their generosity when asked to express their giving as a percentage of household income.Four out of ten American donors believe they should be giving more than they currently do.Giving to charities doesn't generally cannibalize giving to the local church. Ron's research shows the opposite pattern: people who are more generous to charity tend to be more generous to their churches as well.Generosity is more than making a financial transaction. Prayer, volunteering, advocacy, and engagement with the organizations we support can all be part of actively participating in generosity.For people who believe they should give more, the largest barrier isn't necessarily income—it's uncertainty about their financial future.Other barriers include difficulty trusting organizations, uncertainty about whether a gift will make a difference, simply not thinking about giving, and acknowledging the need to learn greater generosity.Churches need to communicate the why behind giving—including how resources are being used and the impact generosity is making.Generosity cannot be effectively taught in isolation through an occasional sermon series or class. It is an outgrowth of spiritual maturity and needs to be incorporated into ongoing discipleship.Parents have tremendous influence on future generosity. Adults who frequently saw their parents give to a place of worship as children are 238% more likely to give to one themselves.Churches should consider how they're helping parents model and discuss generosity with their children rather than unintentionally removing children from opportunities to observe giving.For someone currently giving 1%, being told simply to give 10% can feel unreachable. Helping people identify their current reality and take a faithful next step may be a more effective discipleship approach.Generosity is a lifelong discipleship journey. The role of spiritual leaders is to help people continue taking steps toward greater trust, maturity, and faithfulness.ResourcesGrey Matter Research - greymatteresearch.comConnect with Ron Sellers - ron@greymatterresearch.comBecome a CSN member - https://membership.christianstewardshipnetwork.com/Learn about the Christian Stewardship Network - https://www.christianstewardshipnetwork.com/Are you a pastor or church leader?At Christian Stewardship Network, we are passionate about teaching the biblical perspective on finances so that you can teach your church with authority, confidence, and integrity. Our network is a group of passionate Christ-followers with a burden to teach and equip God's people in stewardship and generosity. Sign up for our mailing list to get new content directly to your inbox! Become a member of our network to access our entire library of online courses, participate in monthly network calls, and more! CSN is a recognized 501(c)(3) non-profit organization. Help us reach more churches with the message of stewardship and generosity. Support our mission through giving.Browse our online resources

Australia is making public evangelism increasingly difficult, many churches say they value evangelism but have no real plan to do it, and plenty of Christians simply don't know how to start a gospel conversation. Evangelist Andrew Walkington joins Todd to explain what's happening in Australia—and how ordinary Christians can become more confident sharing their faith. Segment 1 • What is it like trying to evangelize in a country where public preaching and even handing out gospel tracts can be restricted? • Andrew explains how changing Australian laws and culture have forced his ministry to rethink open-air evangelism. • Why the freedoms American Christians still have should motivate us to make the most of every opportunity to share the gospel. Segment 2 • What's one of the simplest ways to become better at evangelism? Ask questions. • Why are university students increasingly willing to have long conversations about God, truth, and what they believe? • Learn how asking someone what they believe—and why they believe it—can naturally open the door to the gospel. Segment 3 • Most churches say evangelism matters—but how many are actually equipping Christians to do it? • Can someone know all the right Christian language and still not understand the gospel? • Why you should keep asking questions even after someone tells you, “I'm a Christian.” Segment 4 • How do you turn an ordinary conversation with a coworker, neighbor, or stranger into a spiritual conversation? • Why asking a spiritual question shouldn't become an excuse to immediately switch into “preacher mode.” • Learn how to challenge someone's worldview without humiliating them—and why apologetics should always serve the ultimate goal of sharing the gospel. ___ Thanks for listening! Wretched Radio would not be possible without the financial support of our Gospel Partners. If you would like to support Wretched Radio we would be extremely grateful. VISIT https://fortisinstitute.org/donate/ If you are already a Gospel Partner we couldn't be more thankful for you if we tried!

Most churches wait too long to plan, and it costs them their best ideas. In this episode, we break down our real, internal process for planning a church's entire year: starting with vision casting, moving into high-level calendar planning, building ministry-specific plans, and finally tackling budget and resource management. We also dig into the tension every growing church faces between staying nimble and planning ahead, and why the "speedboat vs. aircraft carrier" problem changes as your staff grows. If you're a pastor, executive pastor, or ministry leader wondering when, and how, to start planning next year, this episode gives you a practical framework you can use right now.Website: ⁠https://breakinggrowthbarriers.com⁠Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/breakinggrowthbarriersFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/breakinggrowthbarriersInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/breakinggrowthbarriers

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Dave Clayton | 08.30.26 | ethoschurch.org

Hey everyone! Join us this week as we continue to talk about the Churches in Revelation chapter 2.  This week we begin to discuss the church of Smyrna and the hurdles they faced as a group of Believers.Need Prayer? Got questions?  Email us at media@watsonchapel.netGot Questions? Email us at media@watsonchapel.net!

Churches today like to be known by some interesting titles: "The Community Church," "The Bible-Believing Church,"  "The Church Where Love Is," and there are some churches which like to be called (maybe with a note of humor), "The Church of the Covered Dish."  Of all the miracles of Jesus recorded in the four gospels, there is only one which we find in ALL FOUR of the gospels - - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Stay with us for a few minutes, and we'll find what that one is.  Want a hint?  The sermon title for today is "Food for the Hungry."   For more information on the Campground, insider tips and FAQ's, listen to our General Ocean Lakes Podcast, Campground Conversations. 

The sermon examines the root causes of church division by analyzing 1 Corinthians 3, identifying carnality and spiritual immaturity as the primary drivers of conflict among believers. It argues that Christians often fracture over non-essential preferences and personalities rather than core doctrine, revealing a failure to apply God's wisdom in their relationships. The text highlights how worldly thinking and pride lead to envy and strife, preventing the church from achieving true unity. To resolve these issues, the preacher emphasizes the need for a theocentric focus that recognizes God as the sole source of spiritual growth and salvation. Ultimately, the message calls believers to humility, reconciliation, and a steadfast commitment to Jesus Christ as the only foundation for the church.

Antioch Norman is a community church located in Norman, OK. We are a spiritual family with a global mission to make disciples, plant churches, and work for the peace and prosperity of our cities. As part of the Antioch Movement of Churches, we all share a passion for Jesus and His purposes in the earth.Website | https://www.antiochnorman.comInstagram | https://www.instagram.com/antiochnorman/1330 E Lindsey St Norman, OK 73071‎

Father Anthony with Cristina and Tony are joined by Alice Babij (Bobby).  Father welcomes us and mentions the positive feedback he's received regarding the student's reverent behavior when they attend Church events at other Churches, the effect of the school's core teachings in Catholicism. After Prayer, Alice returns today to share the book, “The Three Marys at the Foot of the Cross” by Fr. Scott Haynes.  In the book, Fr. Haynes invites women to walk spiritually to Calgary alongside these women.  In the reflections we come to see that feminine love, when tested by suffering, is one of the strongest loves found. We see through scripture, that these women demonstrated fidelity, sacrifice and hope.  Their example shows that when Love remains-God is nearby. The book is available at priestleypress.com. St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish  www.priestlypress.com

What do you do when God gives you news you never wanted? And what can churches learn when a respected ministry collapses? Todd looks at trusting God through suffering, the fallout from G3 Ministries, and how churches can pursue accountability without overreacting. Segment 1 • Phil Johnson's cancer has returned—and the prognosis isn't what anyone hoped to hear. • How should Christians respond when God gives us circumstances we desperately wish He would change? • What does it actually look like to trust that God is good even when His plans aren't ours? Segment 2 • Phil Johnson once argued that evangelical Christianity may be in even greater need of Reformation than the church was in Luther's day. • Could a modern-day Reformation even happen in a culture flooded with Christian influencers and competing voices? • Todd examines troubling anti-Semitism within some corners of Christian nationalism—and why forgetting history can have dangerous consequences. Segment 3 • G3 Ministries is gone after another controversy—but Todd believes an innocent pastor's reputation was unfairly damaged along the way. • When does legitimate concern cross the line into publicly besmirching a brother? • What can Christians learn from accusations that Todd says never should have escalated the way they did? Segment 4 • After another ministry scandal, what can your church actually do to keep its leaders accountable? • Should pastors have additional safeguards, regular reviews, and greater transparency—or can accountability measures go too far? • Why no policy or system can completely protect a church when someone is determined to deceive. ___ Thanks for listening! Wretched Radio would not be possible without the financial support of our Gospel Partners. If you would like to support Wretched Radio we would be extremely grateful. VISIT https://fortisinstitute.org/donate/ If you are already a Gospel Partner we couldn't be more thankful for you if we tried!

Most churches don’t start thinking about leadership development until a key person resigns. By then, the only real option is to post the role and hope someone qualified applies. In this special compilation episode, we’ve pulled together four conversations with leaders who have built the habit of developing people long before the seat opens up. The churches growing fastest right now are rarely the ones with the best job postings. They’re the ones who already know who’s next. Don’t miss the four critical lessons every church should consider as they head into fall hiring and budget planning. From the leadership model that quietly keeps benches empty to a mindset shift about where leaders actually come from to a challenge you could give your team on Monday to the structure that produces people you can genuinely put on payroll, each conversation offers a practical step forward. The Model Nobody Names Out Loud Tim Foot explains what he calls hero-driven leadership: the habit of relying too heavily on standout individuals to carry the mission. It produces short-term results, but it creates burnout, unrealistic hiring expectations, and fragile systems. What makes it so hard to escape is that it feels good. It feels productive to be the person who solves the problems and holds the answers. Foot also names the “shiny object trap,” where churches chase talent from larger organizations only to discover that the leader arrives with a playbook that doesn’t fit and no systems to support them. Key Takeaway // Hero dependence is a staffing strategy, whether or not anyone chose it on purpose. Healthy teams are built when leaders get comfortable saying they don’t know what to do next, because that’s what opens the room for collaboration. Listen to the Full Episode // Hero Dependence Is a Terrible Growth Strategy with Tim Foot (June 18, 2026) The Leaders Are Already in Your Building Spence Shelton draws a parallel most church leaders have never made. We all agree that growing a church by reaching lost people beats growing it by transfer from other churches. Then, when it comes to leaders, we reverse the logic and look for someone who’s already trained elsewhere. Shelton makes the case for the shoulder tap: intentionally asking someone whether God might be calling them into ministry. At Mercy Church, both executive pastors and two of three campus pastors came out of the marketplace, from banking, plant management, and physical therapy. None of them would have applied. Somebody had to ask. Key Takeaway // Many future ministry leaders never consider vocational ministry because no one ever raised the possibility with them. Developing from within takes longer than hiring from outside, and it produces leaders shaped by your church’s culture rather than someone else’s. Listen to the Full Episode // Stop Plucking Talent, Start Developing It with Spence Shelton (August 6, 2026) The Challenge That Costs Nothing Chris Vaught faced the constraint every growing church knows well. Connection Point was growing fast, but budget always arrives last, and southeastern Missouri isn’t a place people relocate to for a ministry position. So the church started looking at its own congregation and treating volunteers as unpaid staff with real roles and responsibilities. The starting point was a single challenge to every staff member: go find your Timothy. One person you invest in deeply enough that if you were out on a Sunday, the ministry would still run. Key Takeaway // A leadership pipeline doesn’t have to begin with a budget line. It can begin with one question asked of every staff member about who could carry their ministry if they weren’t there next weekend. Listen to the Full Episode // From 300 to 2,500: Building a Leadership Pipeline That Fuels Growth with Chris Vaught (September 25, 2025) Training Is Not Development Dave Miller draws a distinction that reframes what most churches call leadership development. Churches are excellent at training: the sermon, the class, the book of the month, the small group discussion. All of it is content delivery, and content has never been more available. Development is something else. Miller’s team identifies seven ingredients: training, spiritual formation, soft skills, ownership, mental wellness, and developmental conversations. He also challenges leaders on where accountability sits. When a sports team wins, we talk about the players. When it loses, we replace the manager. Church leaders should apply the same standard to the people they’re developing. Key Takeaway // If content were the key ingredient, leadership development would already be solved. What emerging leaders need is proximity, ownership, and someone willing to slow down and have the conversation. Listen to the Full Episode // Who’s the Next You? Building a Gen Z Residency Pipeline with Dave Miller (September 11, 2025) These four conversations form a ladder, and you don’t have to start at the top. Most churches never start at all because they assume the only real option is a residency program they can’t yet afford. Tim named the model keeping your bench empty. Spence gave the mindset shift and the shoulder tap. Chris gave the first move that costs nothing. Dave gave the structure that produces people you can hire. As you head into this fall, the question worth bringing to your next staff meeting is simple: who on our team has never been tapped on the shoulder, and what would it take to have that conversation this month? Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they're reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you've been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — At the beginning of 2026, we surveyed executive pastors like you and nearly one in four named that staff health and structure, how we get our teams to work together was your top fear going into 2026. You know and I know it, you probably have an open role at your church that you’re trying to fill, or you’re maybe about to have an open role. When a key person leaves your team and your instinct is just to post it, what can we do?Rich Birch — Finding, releasing, equipping leadership is critically important. Welcome to the last compilation episode of summer 2026 here on the unSeminary podcast. Super excited about today’s conversation, all about developing leaders within our organizations.Rich Birch — I know that in many churches, we think of this as a season where new staff are hiring or we’re hiring them into new roles. We’re working on budget planning for next year. There’s all the fall ramp up.Rich Birch — All four of these conversations are going to be helpful for you. The first one, we’ve got Tim Foot. He is the CEO of Slingshot, has nearly 30 years in ministry leadership, and his team has literally worked with thousands of churches on staffing.Rich Birch — Listen to this kickoff to today’s conversation, really setting up the tension that we find ourselves in. He names the leadership model that most of us have absorbed without anyone talking about it out loud, and it could be derailing your church and my church. Let’s listen in to what Tim has to say about developing leaders. [Clip 1 Begins]Tim Foot — Yeah, I mean, the model we see is hero-driven leadership. It’s when we rely too much on individuals to actually carry the mission. And I think the cracks have happened.Tim Foot — I mean, we’ve seen it, Rich. You and I are similar ages. I think the cracks are happening generationally.Tim Foot — The builders and boomers were wired differently for a different time and culture. And us Gen Xers, we can code switch. I mean, we see that happening all the time.Tim Foot — And as we stepped into leadership, the cracks started to appear. I mean, we see it every week, another leader burning out, doing stupid things because of too much pressure. Then Millennials and Gen Z are now leading in a new way that we need to embrace.Tim Foot — And so I think we’re seeing those cracks around that hero dependence, and we’re starting to see the need more than ever to have a team awareness, a holistic approach, or we’re just going to have leaders continue to burn out. And we see it around unrealistic hiring expectations, lack of support for great leaders when they’re hired, a lack of development. Hero dependence is a terrible staffing and growth strategy and becomes a massive trap when it comes to a number of the key focus areas or patterns we’ve seen that healthy teams focus on a move mission forward.Rich Birch — Yeah, see, this is the thing when you I heard you say that once and it literally I sat up and I was like, oh, man, I’ve seen that in my own, you know, my own hiring. I’ve seen that in the way I’ve talked with, you know, I see the leaders around me. You see these people who they’ve kind of built the entire ministry around themselves and they’ve built it’s like it doesn’t work if they don’t. It’s like they’re such a unique individual. They have to lift it all. Rich Birch — Like, why do we keep coming back to that? Why? Even if we know like intellectually in our heads, yeah, that’s not a good idea.Rich Birch — But what makes that model so sticky? It feels like we just keep coming back to this same thing time. In fact, we actually reward it. We’ll be like, wow, isn’t that great? This person’s amazing. And we just kind of keep moving on. Why is that?Tim Foot — It’s the shiny object trap. I mean, the shiny object, aka the talented leader that we think is going to catapult the ministry. Often we see it in hiring conversations when a particular organization wants to go after somebody that’s been in a much bigger organization than them.Tim Foot — And often that person, if they can attract them, will come in with a playbook that isn’t uniquely suited to the organization they’re stepping into. Or there aren’t systems to support that new leader and the growth that’s going to happen. And burnout happens at every level.Tim Foot — But we both know, Rich, busy work makes us feel productive. But is it the right work? And we know that we can be ourselves the shiny object. It feels good to be the hero. It feels good to be the one that’s solving problems. It feels good to be the one that has all the answers.Tim Foot — And I think that’s one of the biggest threats in healthy leadership today, is feeling like you have to have all the answers. Because I think one of the most powerful statements from healthy leaders and healthy teams is, Hey, we don’t know what to do next. Because it actually opens up the room for new thought. It opens up the room for collaboration. And it opens up the room for teamwork. Tim Foot — But it’s easier to move quick. It’s easier to move quick and be surrounded by people who agree and play it safe. And then down the road, we realize that we weren’t growing in every sense of that word. And the mission was stalled out.Tim Foot — We know we often have to slow down, re-strategize, look at who’s around the table, work out how we work together to move faster in the long term. We have to be vulnerable to make a team work. And sometimes it requires us to actually help others win than focus on heroes.Tim Foot — I mean, you think about a winning sports team. It’s not about just one person out there doing all the work. We’ve got to work together as a team.Tim Foot — You know, it’s how do we work together and have less dependence on that shiny object, those standout leaders or those heroes. [Clip 1 Ends]Rich Birch — Oh, so good. You know, Tim named something there. Man, it feels good to be the person with all the answers.Rich Birch — Can I have a little confessional time with you, friends? Earlier parts of my ministry career, I have really struggled with that. I wanted to be the person who had all the answers, but it’s a trap. And most of us find ourselves in it. Rich Birch — We’ve got to move beyond hero dependence, either wanting to be the hero or to find heroes. It’s not a character flaw. It’s a system that ultimately rewards the wrong thing. Rich Birch — So the question that I have is what is the alternative? Where do we go if we’re not just trying to hire the next shiny object?Rich Birch — The thing that will, the person that will, you know, plug in like a thing, where do leaders actually come from? I love this conversation coming up with Spence Shelton as the lead pastor of Mercy Church in Charlotte, planted in 2015, now three campuses online, plus launching a family of churches. I want you to listen for a few things.Rich Birch — First of all, Spence parallels, makes a parallel that I really have not heard many people say between how we think about reaching people who are far from God and how we think about finding leaders and how these two are connected. Listen carefully for the shoulder tap that he talks about. You know, oftentimes one of the things I find most revealing about podcast interviews is people say things just in the sides that really do under that, that give you a sense of what’s actually going on under the hood and pay attention to where his executive pastor campus pastors come from.Rich Birch — Let’s listen in to what Spence Shelton has to say. [Clip 2 Begins]Spence Shelton — I think that mentality starts all the way down to the idea of reaching people that don’t know Christ versus just sheep swapping from one church to the other church, right? So you can grow your church by transfer growth, which I actually am one who, hey man, if somebody’s on the sideline in one church and then they plug into your church, I’m all for it. And if the same thing happens with Mercy, all for it.Spence Shelton — But our aim, what we all know as pastors and ministry leaders is our aim is, man, let’s reach lost people and then disciple them, right? The same thing I think should be true with leadership development. For some reason, when it comes then to developing leaders, we tend to go a different direction and think, well, let’s just go find where some leaders are and get them to plug in.Spence Shelton — It’s like, we don’t do that even with discipleship. Why are we switching our mindset? And so I want to just kind of, I have to, I was convicted and wanted to call our church and I would call others to the same mindset that you have with discipleship.Spence Shelton — Let that carry over into your leadership and your leadership development as well. And I think that’s how we’re going to grow, just as how we’re going to grow the kingdom by reaching lost people, how we’re going to grow the leaders in the kingdom, the number of leaders we have, it’s going to be developing them in our church. And I just, I don’t know that we’re even thinking that way and asking the question, is the guy who’s a 27-year-old physical therapist in my church, has anybody ever bothered to tap him on the shoulder and ask, Hey man, could God be calling you into ministry because I watch you?Spence Shelton — And no, we’re not doing the shoulder tap, man. And so, um, our right now, I just, I love it. I’m just a little bit of the story of our church. Our exec, both of our executive pastors and two of our three campus pastors were all in the marketplace. Spence Shelton — One of our executive pastors was in banking. Another was a plant manager. We have two campus pastors who were both, I use physical therapists cause they’re both former physical therapists. And you know, we’re sitting there having these conversations. You know, what makes a great pastor is someone who has sat with person after person, told them, Hey, you should do this to feel better.Spence Shelton — And then they come back to you later and say, Hey, I don’t feel better. And you say, did you do the thing I told you to do? And they say, no. And you say, well, you should have done that. Spence Shelton — And a patient long suffering physical therapist turns out to be a great pastor, but somebody has got to tap him on the shoulder and say, Hey man, I think God might be calling you into this. Spence Shelton — And so my, my encouragement to anybody who’s in ministry right now, kind of in that leadership development role. And you’re like, I don’t know, we’re going to have to go outside to find some talent. I promise it’s going to take longer the way I’m talking about. But if you will seek the Lord, ask the Lord, and then start shoulder tapping and giving some opportunities for guys to lead for men and women to lead there in your ministry and whatever the leadership roles might be. I think there might be more people in there than you realize, because I believe that God provides for the church that he’s growing, that he’s called you to lead. And so I think that’s true with leaders as well. [Clip 2 Ends]Rich Birch — Hey, friends, 9 out of 10 campus pastors, they do come from within. So if you are launching new locations in the future, man, we got to start developing campus pastors today. Rich Birch — But I know some of you are saying, listen, listen, listen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That all sounds good. Shoulder tapping. Great, great, great. Rich Birch — But how, how do I do it? How do I train my team to do it? How do we motivate, stay focused on this? Rich Birch — The gap that my, what I have found, it’s not desire. It’s not even understand that people don’t understand that that’s how we do it. It’s not a resistance to those things. It’s none of that. It’s just that nobody owns it because you see development is everyone’s job, which means that it’s nobody’s job.Rich Birch — It’s easy for this to fall through the cracks. Aren’t we all supposed to be developing leaders? So if we’re all developing leaders, my experience has been that means that really none of us are or we’re not doing it in a systematic way.Rich Birch — Super excited to have Chris Vaught with us. He is the lead pastor of Connection Point Church in Missouri. Listen, it grew from 300 people in 2011 to 2,500 today across multiple campuses.Rich Birch — And he outlines one challenge that Chris gave every staff member. And I really want you to listen carefully for this, because to be honest, this is pure unSeminary magic. This is like what I love about our podcast.Rich Birch — You could take this out of this interview today and put it into your next team meeting on Monday. Apply it to your church. Let’s listen in for what Chris wants to say to you about how we train people to shoulder tap, find leaders and release them. [Clip 3 Begins]Chris Vaught — You can only hire out so much, right? Because even though our church has grown fast, budget always comes up last. But you have to look at other avenues other than just, oh, I’ll hire another position.Chris Vaught — So we started looking at congregation. We began to develop our own leadership pathway or pipeline to develop not only volunteers, but our future staff. We knew we grew really fast. We need to hire from within, but we still couldn’t hire every position. Chris Vaught — So we started looking at our volunteers as almost as non-paid staff positions. And so we have an atmosphere of expectation of roles and responsibilities and also the value of what they’re doing.Chris Vaught — That the kingdom is dependent upon all of us using our gifts and talents. And so we started this pathway. And at first it was simply a challenge to every staff member. You go find your Timothy. You go find one other person that you can invest yourself into, a volunteer. Chris Vaught — So that if on Saturday night, and here was kind of the criteria for us: if on Saturday night, something were to happen and you catch COVID. Okay. We’re at that time. Could this ministry run the next day because of the person you have personally equipped… Rich Birch — I love that clarity. Chris Vaught — …to hold the ministry.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.Rich Birch — We began to put those pieces together. That’s right. You go ahead. I cut you off there. Chris Vaught — No, no. I was just saying that’s what we began. We began this pipeline and that was really the basic level at first. Every staff member finding that one Timothy, if you will, if you want to use that terminology, that could run that ministry if you were out. [Clip 3 Ends]Rich Birch — See what I told you? The Saturday night test is literally the cheapest leadership development tool in this entire episode. If you do nothing else out of today’s episode, do that.Rich Birch — But I know, listen, there can be a gap on that, a ceiling. Finding your Timothy fills gaps, but it does not produce people necessarily kind of week-in, week-out that you could put on print a payroll. You need to also do some development. You need to have some intentional leadership development.Rich Birch — Most churches, again, think that they’re developing leaders, but they’re really just handing out books or running a monthly team meeting, that sort of thing. I want to introduce you, reintroduce you to my friend Dave Miller. He’s a former worship and creative arts pastor in Las Vegas, in Kentucky, in Michigan, and he and his team have worked with over 150 churches and over 160 residents.Rich Birch — What do we mean by residents? These are people that are in the pipeline for thinking clearly in their lives about joining your staff team or staff teams of another church somewhere across the country. He defines seven ingredients.Rich Birch — Listen, I had the honor of writing the foreword to Dave’s book, Who’s the Next You? I would highly recommend you pick up a copy of that and think through that. But let’s listen in a little bit of what Dave has to say today. [Clip 4 Begins]Dave Miller — Well, we would say there’s seven ingredients. There’s a chapter in the book, seven ingredients. You can get it on our website right now.Dave Miller — Seven ingredients of what we would say is leadership development. So what you’re talking about, really, a sermon is training, if you think about it, like in a, in a market sense, I’m going to talk at you for 35 minutes. There’s four points. It’s very good. It’s inspired. It’s like Ted, Ted, long Ted Talk every 52 times a year, plus Christmas Eve and whatever.Dave Miller — And I would just say, we call that training. Churches for a long time have done really, really well with training, right? It’s either it’s the sermon or it’s Sunday school. It’s even the AI delivered small group questions I get from my men’s group, right? Dave Miller — It is staff. When I say, do y’all do leadership development? Yeah. Tell me about that.Dave Miller — And they start talking about your book or Carey's book or Craig Groeschel's book. It’s a book of the month. It’s conversation. Even now, now we’ve taken training and we’re still delivering the content, but we’re discussing it and we’re filling in blanks. Right. And we do that. Dave Miller — And, or spiritual formation. I had a well-known keynote kind of person. We just need to disciple these kids and get out of their way. And I was like, Oh, neat. Actually we don’t. Dave Miller — We did that once. It’s called the Jesus movement. I think that was the Jesus movement or the Jesus people in the early seventies, which kind of mirrors what’s going on on college campuses, you think. Dave Miller — We don’t need to just disciple them and get… We got to go with them. So, so training, spiritual formation, soft skills, which is the pain point of all the bosses, the emotional lack of intelligence of things. Those would be the three core ones.Dave Miller — And then we have to provide best practices. We have to, we have to provide ownership, which is a big thing for us in our small business, small church world at the 12 month mark. When we’re saying, well, she just doesn’t get it. She didn’t get, Oh, what doesn’t she get? Dave Miller — He just doesn’t understand what… We talk about our downline people as if they’re executive leaders with 20 years of experience. It would be totally fine for someone to accuse me of something like that.Dave Miller — But like when we think of sports, we don’t talk about individual players. We talk about the coaches. When the team’s losing, whose fault is it? As a lifetime Cincinnati Reds fan we change the manager. We don’t talk about number 78 and 14. Dave Miller — When the team’s doing amazing, it’s about the player.He’s killing it. She’s killing it. He’s killing it. When the team is losing, we have to own it similarly.Dave Miller — This is on us. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Dave Miller — Mental wellness. One of the seven things, mental wellness. If you can’t prove to me that you know, I’m not, I’m not here giving you even a theological construct. Cause we work with all sorts of churches that believe all sorts of things, right? But mental health, if you can’t prove to me that you have a plan, at least, or you’ve thought about it, that’s gonna be a problem. We’re checking it on. Dave Miller — And then finally developmental conversations. This is not delivered only through training to your point. [Clip 4 Ends]Rich Birch — What a fantastic group of conversations. Just a thin slice of so many of the conversations we’ve had over the last year in this whole area. Rich Birch — Tim, he named the model that can keep your and my bench empty. Spence gave us the mindset shift and the shoulder tap. Chris gave us the simplest form of the really first move that costs you absolutely nothing. And Dave finally gave you the formal structure that produces people you could hire, put on your team long-term.Rich Birch — Listen, you do not need to start at the top. Most churches never start at all because they only think the real option is just going out and hiring people externally. Listen, really the question I want to leave you with is where Tim started us at the beginning.Rich Birch — Maybe dear listener, you are listening in today and you have the hero mindset. Maybe you need to start with you and figure out what you can do in your area to pass it all along. Listen, we’ve got links for all these four episodes in the show notes here at unSeminary.Rich Birch — We’re on a mission to help 100 churches grow by a thousand people. We do that through these free podcasts, courses, coaching, cohorts. We do a lot to try to get in your corner.Rich Birch — We’ve got so much coming up this fall. Stay tuned. Some great stuff coming your way to see your church be more effective.Rich Birch — Thanks so much, friends. Take care.

Are the PCA and OPC schismatic churches, or were they right to separate from corrupt mainline denominations?In this episode of The Magistrate, Josh Howard and James Baird discuss the theology of schism, ecclesiastical jurisdiction, Redeemed Zoomer's argument for reconquering the PCUSA, and whether conservatives have a duty to remain inside broken institutions.They explore what constitutes a true church, when separation is justified, the difference between unity and compromise, the Old Testament temple argument, Presbyterian history in America, and why Christians should pursue real unity in faith, hope, and love without pretending doctrinal corruption does not matter.Watch all of our videos and subscribe to our channel for the latest content >HereHere

Our guest is LORI KRUEGER, chaplain for the US Women's National Soccer team, executive coach with Novus Global, and chaplain for the Kansas City Current. Lori is a speaker, coach, and Bible teacher, helping leaders at all levels. We discuss the power of coaching, the role of a chaplain, connecting with high level athletes and leaders, leading 20 somethings, and much more. Make sure to visit http://h3leadership.com to access the full list and all the show notes. Thanks again to our partners for this episode: CONVOY OF HOPE - Please donate to help bring hope to those impacted by disasters at http://convoyofhope.org/donate. Convoy is my trusted partner for delivering food and relief by responding to disasters in the US and all around the world. Right now, Convoy of Hope is responding to the Venezuela earthquake disaster, providing basic needs like food, hygiene supplies, medical supplies, blankets, bedding, clothing and more. All through partnering with local Churches. Join me and please support their incredible work. To donate visit http://convoyofhope.org/donate. And COME and SEE FOUNDATION – reaching a billion people with the story of Jesus. Visit http://comeandseefoundation.org. Come and See Foundation is on a mission to ensure that all 7 seasons of The Chosen are produced, translated into 600 languages, globally distributed, and kept FREE for all. From Michigan to Madagascar, people are encountering Jesus through The Chosen, Season 6 releases in November. Join Come and See in inviting a billion people to find and follow Jesus. You can play a supporting role in introducing the world to Jesus. Lean more and get involved at http://comeandseefoundation.org.

This episode of Dangerous Dogma features a conversation between Word&Way Editor Brian Kaylor, Lutheran minister and journalist Angela Denker, and Disciples pastor and author Beau Underwood. The conversation includes discussion about revelations that the Department of Homeland Security has been spying in churches, a controversial golf ad, and a White Sox night celebrating Pope Leo. You can watch a video version of the conversation here. Here are a few pieces related to the episode: - Brian reported at A Public Witness about DHS spying on churches. - Brian reported on a federal judge criticizing the "ICE pastor" for violating court orders. - Dan Miller talked in the Axis Daily Brief about what the DHS spying case shows about the Trump administration's limited view of religious liberty. - Brian reported on Doug Wilson claiming Zohran Mamdani voters should lose their citizenship. - Good Good Golf and Callaway Golf posted and then deleted a controversial ad. - Beau wrote at A Public Witness about Damned If She Does: Why Women Quit Church and What It Means for the Future of Religion by Sarah Stankorb. - Karen Elizabeth Park wrote at Ex Voto about the Pope Leo night at a recent White Sox game. Also, check out the most recent books by the three panelists: Brian Kaylor, The Bible According to Christian Nationalists: Exploiting Scripture for Political Power Angela Denker, Disciples of White Jesus: The Radicalization of American Boyhood Beau Underwood (with Brian Kaylor), Baptizing America How Mainline Protestants Helped Build Christian Nationalism

Every week, Pastor Keith Foskey and his wife Jennifer tackle questions from around the world on theology, ministry, culture, and the Bible, while interacting live with viewers in the chat. From serious doctrine to fun conversation, Your Calvinist Live is a place for thoughtful discussion, biblical insight, and a few laughs along the way. Join us live and be part of the conversation!Questions and Timestamps:Help find a church in Las Cruces New Mexico 15:00Why can't women be pastors, but can have their heads uncovered? 1:00:36Is it sinful to watch movies that are not explicitly Christian? 1:07:00Can you explain 2 Kings 3;27? 1:12:15Is the Holy Spirit feminine? 1:17:20Should a Christian vote if there is not a pro-life candidate? 1:19:30Can an unbaptized believer have the table? 1:26:20Thoughts on sending children to a hostile school environment? 1:28:30Do problems always equal the devil at work? 1:35:09How can I read the Synoptic Gospels without falling into fear? 1:38:16Is there a line where accumulation of possessions becomes excess? 1:42:00How much should I share about a health issue if my husband is a pastor? 1:49:40Followup about CREC and the issue of imputed righteousness 1:57:40How much should a parachurch operate like a church? 2:01:10Does Hebrews 10;25 include every time the church assembles?  2:07:50How do I deal with the issue of anger? 2:11:00How should a Christian respond to being put under the supervision of an AI camera? 2:17:10At what point is a pastor a reason to leave a church? 2:21:04Support the Show: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/Yourcalvinisthtto://www.page50.com/yourcalvinistPage50 is a Marketing Company that is committed to helping you build your brand with truth, goodness, and beauty. They do web design, videography, SEO, content creation, branding, and consulting. And for a limited time, you can get a free website audit, which can help you discover how your website is performing and what you can do to improve it. Just go to page50.com/yourcalvinist to get started.https://www.TinyBibles.comYou can get the smallest Bible available on the market, which can be used for all kinds of purposes, by visiting TinyBibles.com and when you buy, use the coupon code KEITH for a discount.Love Coffee? Want the Best? Get a free bag of Squirrelly Joe's Coffee by clicking on this link: https://www.Squirrellyjoes.com/yourcalvinistor use coupon code "Keith" for 20% off anything in the storeDominion Wealth Strategies Visit them at https://www.dominionwealthstrategists.comhttp://www.Reformed.Moneyand let them know we sent you! https://www.HighCallingFitness.comHealth, training, and nutrition coaching all delivered to you online by confessionally reformed bodybuilders and strength athletes.Visit us at https://www.KeithFoskey.comIf you need a great website, check out https://www.fellowshipstudios.com

What happens when church growth becomes more about bigger buildings, larger budgets, and better programs than making disciples who make disciples? In this episode of the Mission Matters podcast, Matthew Ellison and Ted Esler talk with Todd Wilson, founder of Exponential and author of How Did We Get Here?, about the 75-year evolution of the modern church growth movement.Todd explores how the American church shifted from gospel saturation and church multiplication toward a consumer-driven model—and why the future may belong to bivocational leaders, microchurches, everyday missionaries, and simple, reproducible disciple-making movements. This candid conversation challenges pastors and missions leaders to rethink how they measure success, mobilize believers, and prepare the next generation to lead.The Mission Matters Podcast is a place to talk about the importance of our Mission as Christians. The Mission Matters is a partnership of Missio Nexus and Sixteen:Fifteen, who have a shared passion to mobilize God's people to be a part of His mission.

Mary welcomes back Jeff Kinley to talk about bringing hope to our kids – through bible prophecy. Back in the 70s and 80s, the youth were clamoring for more information about Jesus’ return. It anchored us, gave us hope and caused us to look beyond the troubles and fleeting sense that all humans experience. Then what happened? Churches stopped teaching prophecy. The rapture became a comedic, scoffing byline – and with all that the sense of hope that our youth could rise above the floodwaters of a chaotic and dying world. Today we talk to Jeff about his Future Hope Student/Youth conferences. What are the goals and hopes of reaching out to our kids once again with the blessed hope? Why is it that so many told churches to stop talking about prophecy, and scaring the kids? We make the case that while sobering, “scary” should never be any reason to cut a big chunk of Scripture out of our kids’ lives – and our own. We also catch up with the Prophecy Pro’s Conferences. A thoughtful hour of hope and help.       Stand Up For The Truth Videos: https://rumble.com/user/CTRNOnline & https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgQQSvKiMcglId7oGc5c46A

Churches don't produce disciples — disciples do. Pastor Mattie builds the case from Genesis, Moses and Joshua, and the Apostle Paul that the law of multiplication isn't a strategy, it's written into the order of creation. That is, you reproduce what you are, not what you say. The calling isn't to fill a seat or build an institution… it's to find a Paul and become one.Support the show

In this episode of AI & the Church, host Michael Whittle sits down with Pastor Charles Metcalf (Transformation Church, Tulsa, OK) and Pastor Fillmore Bolds (One Church, Seattle, WA) to talk honestly about how AI fits into church life — both in creative work and in the pulpit.The conversation covers two main areas: AI and creativity — where the pastors draw a clear line between using AI as a workflow assistant for admin, systems, and design production versus outsourcing the actual creative or artistic vision — and AI and preaching — where both pastors walk through their personal sermon-prep processes, including how they use AI as a research assistant to gather theological perspectives, stress-test arguments, and refine language, while insisting the core thesis, conviction, and voice of a sermon must come from the preacher's own study and walk with God.Key themes include the idea that "you have to think first, prompt second," why AI can accelerate research but should never replace theological judgment or personal accountability, and why the hardest part of preaching in the AI era isn't writing faster — it's a young preacher finding their own voice. The episode closes with both pastors sharing why they're hopeful, not fearful, about the future of the church in an AI-saturated culture.

This week on the News Man Weekly, we're keeping it in the family. Zach Hunnell, Carl's youngest son, joins us to discuss his life in Barcelona, Spain. First, we recap the latest news around Richland County, including the Festival of Hope at Mansfield Speedway, long-awaited plans to demolish the former West Park Shopping Center and a new series of community town halls aimed at strengthening dialogue between Mansfield residents and police. Plus, Carl ranks his top 5 summer blockbuster movies of all time. Then, News Man Weekly goes international as Carl welcomes his youngest son, Zachary Hunnell, a Lexington High School graduate who has spent the past four years living and working in Barcelona, Spain. Zach talks about his career in global supply chain management with HP and how a kid from Richland County ended up building a life halfway around the world. Father and son also get into the fun stuff: adjusting to 10 p.m. dinners, late-night beach parties, life without a car, European soccer culture, European healthcare, traveling the continent and the things Americans get completely wrong about everyday life in Spain.This episode is powered by the great folks at Relax, It's Just Coffee. Relevant links: On the same track: Churches unite for Festival of Hope at Mansfield Speedway Mansfield NAACP announces 'Town Hall' meetings with mayor, police seeking improved relationship Powering down: Utility work to begin ahead of former West Park Shopping Mall's fall takedown Be a Source Member for unlimited access to local, independent journalism.Support the show: https://richlandsource.com/membersSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Show #2736 Show Notes: First Amendment: https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-1/ Exempt: https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/exempt Immune meaning in Law: https://search.brave.com/search?q=immune+in+law&conversation=097ca59692294150f83a0e803b8f28aecbc8 krytocracy: https://search.brave.com/search?q=krytocracy&spellcheck=0&conversation=097c0422d527a0ea175dc1029729b9fe761b Sabbath: https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/sabbath Royce the “Black Queen”: https://x.com/Highway_30/status/2091982456450920693 Dave Daubenmire, a veteran 35 year high school football coach, was spurred […]

Giving among evangelical Christians has declined significantly since 2020, but the numbers tell a much bigger story than dollars and percentages. In this episode, Leo Sabo talks with Ron Sellers of Grey Matter Research about declining giving and tithing, common assumptions about volunteering and political giving, and the strongest predictor of generosity: spiritual engagement. Their conversation reveals why stewardship cannot be treated as an isolated church program and why generosity must be understood as part of the larger process of forming faithful disciples of Jesus.Key Takeaways Giving among evangelicals has declined across virtually every measure since 2020.Fewer evangelicals are giving to churches and charities, and those who do give are contributing a smaller percentage of household income.Only about 10% of evangelicals meet the study's definition of tithing, even when tithing is measured generously as giving 8% or more of gross household income.Tithing becomes less common among younger evangelicals, falling to about 5% among those under 35.The research doesn't support the idea that people are substituting volunteering for financial giving: 98% of evangelical volunteers also give financially.Political giving doesn't appear to be replacing church or charitable giving either; only about 12% reported giving to a political candidate, party, or cause.Spiritual engagement is the strongest predictor of generosity. People who regularly pray, study Scripture, worship, and participate in Christian community are significantly more likely to give and volunteer.Stewardship teaching is less effective when it is isolated into an occasional sermon series, class, or giving initiative instead of integrated into a person's overall spiritual formation.Financial inability is not the primary barrier to giving for most people; relatively few donors describe their giving as a significant financial sacrifice.Churches may need to rethink how they communicate about tithing, generosity, and percentages, particularly as fewer people naturally think about their finances in percentage terms.When stewardship is treated primarily as a precursor to asking for money, people can understandably interpret the conversation as fundraising rather than discipleship.The larger opportunity for churches is to make stewardship and generosity a normal, healthy part of following Jesus, rather than a separate financial subject.ResourcesGrey Matter Research - greymatteresearch.comConnect with Ron Sellers - ron@greymatterresearch.comBecome a CSN member - https://membership.christianstewardshipnetwork.com/Learn about the Christian Stewardship Network - https://www.christianstewardshipnetwork.com/

Two-thirds of young adults (18–29) have walked away from church… but we're also seeing an all‑time high in Bible sales driven by young adults, plus millions returning to a personal commitment to Jesus. In this episode of youngadults.today, Josiah and Micah sit down with Daniel Young (Young Adults & Student Pastor at Eagle Brook Church) to talk about: His prodigal story and how Jesus recaptured his heart as a young adult Why the young adult years are the most spiritually dangerous years Real stats on deconstruction, disaffiliation, and the surprising comeback How Eagle Brook reaches young adults across 14 campuses Third spaces, after-parties, and creating transformational relationships How to disciple young adults so they don't just love youth group… they love the Church Daniel's top advice for young communicators: love the Bible, guard your private devotion, and love people well Whether you're a young adult, a pastor, or a ministry leader, this conversation will give you vision, language, and practical ideas for reaching the next generation.

I have typically read Paul's letter to Rome like it was an essay written for the church at large for all times and for all places.  In fact Paul, Jesus' apostle to the nations, in about 57 A.D., wrote a pastoral letter to several house churches in Rome. He mentions 26 members of the Roman church by name in chapter 16.  He knew a lot about the churches and he was very concerned with simmering divisions within those churches.  The churches were composed of a great diversity of folks, Jews and Gentiles, slave and free, as well as male and female.  A dispute was heating up in the church between a group that Paul called the "Weak," primarily Jewish believers, and a group that Paul called the "Strong," primarily Gentile believers.  Neither group had much use for the other and that was the problem!  He had strong words for both groups. The issues have to do with the place of circumcision, sabbath keeping, and the Jewish food laws in the life of the Churches.  Paul used eleven chapters to give the churches a solid Christ centered foundation on which to live together as "One People of God."  His overriding message was that one church, composed of Jews and Gentiles, living to the Glory of God, is the will of the LORD God.  He declared in chapter 12, "All of us are members one of another."  He followed up this declarative in chapter 15 with the imperative:  "Welcome each other as Christ has welcomed you, for the Glory of God." Tom Wright was recently asked, "What about today's church would most disturb the apostle Paul?" To which he replied. "Our many, many divisions and our LACK OF CONCERN about it." Come on this journey with us through Paul's wonderful letter which invites us to rediscover the "Power of Oneness."

Scott Sullivan interviewed Dr. Patrick Morley about transforming men's ministry from event-driven programming to intentional discipleship pathways. Morley emphasized that men aren't seeking more meetings—they need brotherhood, mission, and practical help solving real-life problems. Churches must shift from hoping men connect to building deliberate systems that reach, disciple, and deploy men into mission.Core Framework: Four Organizing QuestionsWhen a man reaches for your church's door handle, leaders must ask:Why did he just do that? (What motivated him to come?)  What problems is he trying to solve? (Career, marriage, fatherhood, purpose)  What does he need from us? (Not what we need from him)  How can we give that to him? (Practical pathway design)Men driving past churches daily are asking: "Could this place help me solve my problems?"The Momentum Problem: Capturing Event Energy72% of men who attend Man in the Mirror events sign up for follow-up groups when asked immediately—not weeks later.Proven Event-to-Discipleship ModelForm small groups at the event itself:Give men the follow-up resource in handDirect them: "Form groups of 4-5 right now"  Exchange contact info and pick first meeting time/place  Answer one question together: "Where are you on your spiritual journey?"Critical insight: Don't say "give us your info and we'll call you in two weeks." That's like a car salesman asking a ready buyer to come back later.After 4-6 week groups, offer clear next steps: ongoing discipleship groups, mission trips, or service opportunities. Men's ministry becomes the track to populate existing church ministries, not a parallel organization.Addressing Real Pressures: The Broken Boy Reality8 out of 10 men grew up in dysfunctional homes.Churches must disciple men both into their future and out of their past.Practical ResourcesFree workbook: patrickmorley.com/actionplan - 28-day self-administered plan for healing childhood wounds 12  Small groups specifically for addictions, divorce recovery, and trauma  Vetted counselor referrals for issues beyond pastoral scope 1213Pastor vulnerability matters: Share your own brokenness. "If God didn't use flawed men, He wouldn't have any to work with."Clarity Drives EngagementEvery men's ministry needs three communication tools:Internal purpose statement: "Give every man a credible offer of Jesus and resources to grow"  Public slogan: "Bethel Men—Building men for stronger families and stronger community" 14  Elevator pitch: Simple, repeatable explanation any leader can shareMen respond to aspirational vision—becoming fully alive, making life count, having great relationships.Reaching Younger Men: What's Working NowCOVID Impact on Young LeadersMorley's Bible study lost all leaders under 40 post-COVID (38% of leadership team). Young men at their tables also disappeared. "Like attracts like" principle in action.Current Effective StrategiesOne-on-one engagement is working best:Personal coffee invitationsAsk questions like a first date: family background, spiritual journey, work, aspirations  No judgment, genuine curiosity  Assign 4-5 men in church to each meet one younger man in 60 days, then share storiesOther proven approaches in Georgia:Service projects (wheelchair ramps, hurricane relief) for men not yet church-engagedFather-child activities (fishing trips)  Men's gatherings for worship and equipping (150 men in South Georgia woods)  Skill-building programs (oil changes, tire repair) paired with intentional mentoringDon't Change the Gospel—Change the MethodsFrancis Schaeffer (1968): "Each generation has the responsibility of communicating the gospel in understandable terms, considering the language and thought forms of that setting."Critical mistake: "We must stop trying to win young people to our way of thinking. Keep the gospel as it is but engage them and understand their way of thinking."Shifting from Recipients to ResponsibleThe 12-Person Church ProblemMorley observed same pastor, same 12 people, same 60 empty seats—one year apart. Everyone loved God and wanted growth but lacked intentionality.Reframe Your ExpectationsIf 12 people serve and one new person responds to a serve message, that's 8% ROI in one week. Celebrate incremental growth instead of being disappointed.Critical mindset: If someone's not doing ministry, they probably are the ministry—they need to be ministered to first.Georgia Baptist Men's Ministry InitiativesScott Sullivan is launching:Digital men's ministry cohorts transitioning to regional in-person gatherings12-month planning template for churches—most requested resource addressing the "what do we do between events?" problem 27Stronger Together conference (August 22, 2026, Warner Robins) with Morley keynotingPatrick Morley's Greatest Lesson"There is a God we want. And there is a God who is. They are not the same God. The turning point of our lives is when we stop seeking the God we want and start seeking the God who is."To pastors and leaders: "Jesus wants you to know: I see you. I know what you're going through. I love you unconditionally, and I will always be with you."Action ItemsScott Sullivan: Promote Warner Robins conference (August 22, 2026) to Georgia churches  Scott Sullivan: Launch digital men's ministry cohorts, transition to regional in-person format  Church leaders: Download free "Broken Boy to Mended Man Action Plan" at patrickmorley.com/actionplan  Men's ministry leaders: Implement at-event small group formation using 72% proven model  Pastors: Recruit 4-5 men to each meet one younger man for coffee in next 60 days, share stories afterwardTo find out more about men's ministry leader cohorts, reach out to lmelton@gabaptist.org  For a copy of the 12-month Men's Ministry Plan, email ssullivan@gabaptist.org

Churches that stand firm by standing together, stand out.

Join today at https://www.functionhealth.com/GENIUS and use code GENIUS25 for a $25 credit. Follow David on IG: @DavidSoComedy  If you want to support the show, and get all the episodes ad-free go to: https://geniusbrain.supercast.com/  To watch the GeniusBrain podcast on YouTube go to: https://bit.ly/GeniusBrainYouTube Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast for free wherever you're listening or by using this link: https://bit.ly/GeniusBrainPod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave Clayton | 08.23.26 | ethoschurch.org

Antioch Norman is a community church located in Norman, OK. We are a spiritual family with a global mission to make disciples, plant churches, and work for the peace and prosperity of our cities. As part of the Antioch Movement of Churches, we all share a passion for Jesus and His purposes in the earth.Website | https://www.antiochnorman.comInstagram | https://www.instagram.com/antiochnorman/1330 E Lindsey St Norman, OK 73071‎

Does democracy need Christianity to survive? Jonathan Rauch — a gay, atheist, Jewish journalist at Brookings and The Atlantic — has concluded that it does. His 2025 book, Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy, argues that Christianity is a load-bearing wall in the American experiment, and that two decades of de-churching have left the whole structure sagging.As an outsider who once celebrated secularization as progress and watched what filled the vacuum, Rauch now claims that democracy needs Christianity. What he found is that when the church stopped carrying its load, toxic partisanship, tribal politics, and substitute religions rushed in to take its place.Host Doug Stuart talks with Rauch to work through why the founders counted on Christian virtue, which three teachings of Jesus underwrite liberal democracy, why compromise is a Christian act rather than a betrayal, and what the church has to recover to be worth listening to again.Chapters:0:00 Intro0:22 Guest Intro and Book Origins4:03 Christianity's Civic Role7:28 Churches, Decline, and Politics12:23 Liberalism and Democracy Defined13:56 Founders on Virtue18:52 Jesus and Liberal Democracy25:10 Compromise as a Creative Process29:53 Congress and Political Cynicism32:50 Reforming a Broken System33:45 Christians and Culture War35:38 Freedom, Fear, and Public Faith38:10 Pseudo-Religions Fill the Void41:25 Libertarianism and Christianity45:39 Altruism, Virtue, and Freedom51:15 Latter-Day Saints and Agency59:18 Make Christianity Peculiar AgainAudio Production by Podsworth Media - https://podsworth.com Come meet fellow Christian libertarians, sharpen your thinking, and be part of a growing movement rooted in faith and freedom at the Christians for Liberty Conference.Lunch is included in the price of the ticket. We will send out a form ahead of the conference requesting dietary preferences and restrictions.Learn more here.Use code LCI50 for 50% off your first order at Podsworth.com to clean up your voice recordings and also support LCI!Full Podsworth Ad Read BEFORE & AFTER processing:https://youtu.be/vbsOEODpQGs ★ Support this podcast ★

On today's program, a federal judge has dismissed the last remaining claim in Johnny Hunt’s defamation lawsuit, marking the end of a contentious legal battle. He had sued the Southern Baptist Convention and others back in 2023. And, a Texas church is sued by the Texas Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church over its bylaw changes. Plus, water filters open doors to share the gospel with vulnerable people around the world. But first, a story out of Tucson, Arizona. Warren, tell us what’s going on at GracePointe Church. Arizona authorities have arrested a former finance manager at GracePointe Church on felony charges. Her name is Tracey Jorgensen. She’s 61 years old. Court documents say Jorgensen stole church funds for five years — from 2020 to 2025. The total is more than $356,000. The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. We get editorial, database, and other technical support from Christina Darnell, Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, Heidi Allums, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Jessica Eturralde, Bob Smietana, Michaela Gordoni, Kim Roberts, Kadence McKinnon, Kathryn Post, and Makella Knowles. Until next time, may God bless you.

⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️Join Lead Time+ to continue the conversation⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️Rev. John Kunze has served Messiah Church and School in Lincoln, Nebraska, for more than 25 years. In this candid conversation, he explains why large congregations face unique ministry challenges—and why he believes their experience, ideas, and missional perspective are often missing from Synod-wide conversations.John, Tim, and Jack discuss representation at LCMS conventions, the growing complexity of Synod governance, pastoral formation through the SMP program, and the financial and relational realities of leading a large church and school. John also shares a remarkable story of reconciliation with a pastor who once publicly criticized his ministry—offering a hopeful picture of what confession, forgiveness, trust, and genuine unity could look like across the LCMS.The episode ultimately asks a much bigger question: Can the LCMS stop fighting over ministry differences long enough to learn from one another and reach more people with the Gospel?⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️Care about the future of the LCMS?Join the LCMS Current! (LCMS Current Events Newsletter)⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️To learn more, visit uniteleadership.org

Rev. Fitz Conner joins LAB the Podcast to explore how beauty, sacred architecture, and real relationships shape the life of the church.Drawing from more than 40 years of ministry in Tampa, including his Young Life roots and his leadership at First Pres Tampa, Fitz reflects on the spaces that form us and the church's calling to embody the beauty and character of God. From vaulted ceilings and stained glass to life groups and shared worship, this conversation reveals why both place and people matter in our apprenticeship to Jesus.Thank you for joining the conversation and embodying the life and beauty of the gospel. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow LAB the Podcast. Visit First Pres Tampa: https://firstprestampa.org/Support / Sponsor: https://vuvivo.com/supportFor More Videos, subscribe: @VUVIVOV3 | https://www.youtube.com/@VUVIVOV3Follow: @labthepodcast | @vuvivo_v3 | @zachjelliott | @firstprestampaLike: https://www.facebook.com/vuvivo.v3#LABthePodcast #FitzConner #FirstPresTampa #FaithAndBeauty #SacredArchitecture #ChurchArchitecture #ChristianDiscipleship #ChristianPodcast #BeautyAndFaith #RealRelationships #RealTransformation #ApprenticeshipToJesus #ChurchAndCulture #YoungLife #VUVIVOSupport the show

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Todd Wilson, co-founder of Exponential and a leader at Multipliers, where he helps churches and ministry leaders pursue multiplication and greater Kingdom impact. Todd has spent decades studying church planting, disciple-making, and movements, and his latest book, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward, explores the evolution of the American church growth movement and what it may mean for the future. Are churches working harder while reaching fewer people? Have our systems become better at producing activity than disciples? Todd challenges leaders to examine the operating system beneath modern church ministry and consider what needs to change if we want to see true reproduction and multiplication. We have a disciple-making problem. // For years, Todd has championed the goal of seeing more churches reproduce. Research once showed that fewer than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing, and while that number has improved, multiplication remains rare. But Todd believes church planting is ultimately an outcome of a deeper issue: most churches do not have a functional culture of disciple-making. If disciples aren’t reproducing disciples, churches will struggle to reproduce churches. Reproduction has to become generational. // Multiplication begins when reproduction continues beyond the first generation. One disciple makes another disciple, who then makes another, and the process keeps going. The same is true with churches. A church plants a church, which plants another church, which plants another. Once reproduction moves across multiple generations, addition becomes multiplication and the potential for movement begins to emerge. The church growth system has slowly changed. // Todd’s research traces roughly 75 years of church growth history, beginning with missionary Donald McGavran. McGavran originally studied why some churches on the mission field grew while others did not and developed principles aimed at helping missionaries reach more people. Over time, those ideas moved into the American church and blended with seeker-sensitive ministry, the megachurch movement, purpose-driven strategies, multisite, church planting networks, and other innovations. Much good came from these eras, but Todd believes the system gradually shifted toward institutional and programmatic growth. Good intentions can still create the wrong outcomes. // Todd is careful not to blame previous generations of church leaders. Many of the people who shaped modern church ministry were deeply evangelistic and sincerely wanted to reach people. Yet over time, the dominant definition of success increasingly became bigger attendance, larger programs, and expanding organizations. The unintended result is a consumer-driven model that can attract people effectively but struggles to produce disciples who reproduce. The angst leaders feel is real. // Todd hears a growing frustration among pastors: churches are spending more money, employing more staff, and working harder while seeing less fruit. Even churches that appear successful can sense something isn’t right beneath the surface. Todd believes much of that angst comes from trying to produce multiplication through an operating system designed primarily for addition. Naming the problem is an important first step toward changing it. Leaders must model what they want reproduced. // Todd believes transformation has to begin with senior leaders. If disciple-making is going to become the church’s growth engine, lead pastors and elders must personally participate in a simple, reproducible disciple-making process. Rather than merely preaching about discipleship, pastors should be able to name the people they are actively discipling and allow those relationships to shape the way they lead and teach. Keep the process simple and reproducible. // Whatever model a church chooses, Todd believes it must be simple enough for anyone to reproduce. The goal isn’t another sophisticated program but a way of following Jesus that can move naturally from person to person. The same approach should work for a lead pastor, a volunteer, or even a teenager. Simplicity increases the possibility of multiplication. Give the next generation permission to experiment. // Todd isn’t calling churches to abandon everything they’ve inherited. Instead, he encourages leaders to learn from the past, retain what is fruitful, and recognize that the current operating system may be losing effectiveness. Churches should create space for younger leaders to experiment, learn, and discover more reproducible approaches to disciple-making without being forced to preserve every assumption of previous generations. To learn more about Todd Wilson, visit multipliers.org. You can also download a free PDF or audio version of How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward at church-growth.org or pick up a paper copy on Amazon.com. In addition, check out Todd Wilson’s conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, and the interview A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have tuned in today for this reason, friends, lean in. um I want you to be a part of the conversation that we’re having today. The leader that we’ve got on the phone, on the I don’t know why say the phone because we have not been on phones for podcasts in, you know, 10 years, but on the line is really pressing on an issue that I know that a large portion, you know, almost 90 percent of the churches in the country need to be doing what we’re talking about today. And they’re not. And I really want you to lean in and learn from Todd Wilson. Rich Birch — If you do not know Todd Wilson, he has been the founding and co-founding member of a number of faith-based organizations, including Exponential and Multipliers. He has designed a number, and been a part of the launch of a multiple of national church planting networks. He’s currently a team member, or team leader at Multipliers and serves leaders and ministries who are pursuing multiplication, helping them develop vision and strategy ultimately for a 100 X impact. You know that I love that. Rich Birch — Recently, he wrote a book that caught my attention that I want to dive in on and kind of um unpack some of the core lessons for us today. It’s called, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. And it’s really looking at the whole conversation, American church growth movement. Todd, welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.Todd Wilson — Rich, it’s great to be here with you. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.Rich Birch — Yeah, me too. So why don’t we start with kind of giving us a picture of Multipliers and the work that you’re focused on now, kind of set the context for us.Todd Wilson — Sure. It’s probably good to have the context, you know, at at my core, my own personal calling. I am an entrepreneurial engineer at my core. I love to envision, envisage opportunities, seek strategies and opportunities of the future. And so where I like to do it anywhere, there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact. And that’s what gets me in trouble often is the, wherever there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact.Todd Wilson — When I came out of the marketplace over 25 years ago into full-time ministry, the most natural hundred X place for me, in addition to being in the local church was, was church planting. I was just drawn to church planting. I got to spend almost 20 years, ah you know, leading Exponential and co-founding there.Todd Wilson — And in recent years, really trying to get even more focused really on the 100x impact. I want to spend my next decade as I’m getting older here, you know, what’s it look like for every hour, for every dollar, for every bit of energy, to see 100x return.Todd Wilson — And so the idea of Multipliers, and it’s a small team of us that, you know, we have a definite bias within the kingdom space to the disciple-making as the mission and engine of the church. And what’s it look like to get back to Jesus style disciple making. But then church planting and multiplication, what does it look like to be doing things that that are even capable of reproduction that can lead to multiplication and ultimately movement. So our goal is to just help champion at the personal level through personal calling, at the church level through disciple making and cultures of disciple making that can ultimately produce movements.Todd Wilson — And so we are a champion and advocate for that.Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. You and I are are similarly wired. And over the years, you know I’ve heard people talk about, you know, and they always they’ll do like a series at a church on spiritual gifts. And I’ve often wondered because of the kinds of things I’ve been involved in, if, you know, if I have some sort of apostolic gift, just because of the stuff I found myself doing and, you know, launching campuses and all that.Rich Birch — And it’s interesting that gift over the years I’ve heard, which is similar to the kind of work you’ve been doing over the years is the only gift that I’ve ever noticed that preachers, they seem to talk down about it. And they’re like, stop starting things like, you know, they’re like, they always, you know, are like on the negative side of, you know, being the guy who wants to be entrepreneurial and see new things.Rich Birch — And that’s a part of what I admire about you and the good work you’ve done. When you were at Exponential over those, you know, with you that you co-founded, you know, that almost 20 years, you know, they had this, they saw some amazing things happen there under your leadership, where this idea of moving church reproduction from under 5%, really trying to push us towards 16%.Rich Birch — So for people that are unaware of this, I think this is good context to kind of take a step back and talk about why that number, why are we actually, why are you giving decades of your life towards this idea of trying to move towards 16%? What do we mean by that when you you know talk about that? Because I think that’s a good foundational idea for today’s conversation.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think it’s important it to understand, again, context for me. I didn’t grow up a Christian. I never had a dream to be in full-time vocational ministry. I’ve never wanted to be a lead pastor of anything. You know, ministry was the farthest thing from my mind growing up. When you’re asking kids, what do you want do when you grow up? Todd Wilson — So when God brought me into full-time vocational ministry, and I’m going to say kicking and screaming, I wanted to go start a company. I wanted to go make money. I wanted to go change the world. And so coming into full-time vocational ministry, why in the world would I want to see anything except movements happening? Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — We read about movements in the New Testament. Why do I want to be personally satisfied if God’s calling me into a new life of ministry with anything less than seeing movements?Todd Wilson — And so that was my context of stepping in and and leading at Exponential and what was driving us. And your question from 5% to 16%. Well, Houston, we have a problem.Todd Wilson — If movements are multiplication, and multiplication is generational reproduction, and we, at the time we were starting Exponential, there were less than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing. You just got to let that sink in.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — 95% of churches just 25 years ago, 95% of churches in the U.S. are not reproducing. It’s physically impossible, both mathematically and biblically, to see multiplication and ultimately movements if less than 5% of churches are reproducing.Todd Wilson — So the answer to where’s the 5 to 16, for me personally, God’s called me into a new life and a new ministry. I don’t want to be satisfied with just status quo, but the state of the U.S. church is such that we physically can’t see 100x impact in the operating system of how things are working. Todd Wilson — So the 5 to 16 was very simple. Let’s measure where we’re at. And so the 16% sociologists say that if you can get 16% of an audience acting a certain way, behaving a certain way, it will become normative for everyone else. I like to say, if you’re in a room and you start quacking like a duck to talk, if you can get 16% of the people in the audience quacking like a duck, then everybody’s going to communicate by quacking like a duck.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And so it just became a conviction. Let’s move the needle from less than 5% to 16%. And then the language we would use is, at 16%, healthy church reproduction would become such a normative thing that we would see multiplication happening.Todd Wilson — Now, the little bit of an elephant in the room before we move on, church planting is just the outcome. So that 5% number, it’s an outcome of the system and what’s happening.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The more ornery number is that the national studies that we did on what percentage of U.S. churches have a disciple-making culture. That’s also less than 5%.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So 95% of churches don’t have a functional mission of disciple-making, and that’s their normative growth engine through disciple-making. So in reality, we have a disciple-making problem, not a church-planting problem. And so those two became very tied together, as as will become evident as we have this interview.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. and And just can you define generational reproduction for folks that are listening in? When you when you when you say that, like, hey, we’re trying to move churches towards generational reproduction, kind of just unpack that a little bit more.Todd Wilson — Yeah, let’s let’s start at the personal level of disciple-making. If one person makes a disciple of another person, you’ve got one generation. If that person goes on to make another disciple two generations, that person makes a disciple three generations. We see that biblically. We see that in the leadership pipeline with Paul, that you know we need to see disciples who make disciples who make disciples.Todd Wilson — Once you get to the third or fourth generation of something reproducing itself, if you drew that on paper, one becomes two, two becomes four, four becomes eight, eight becomes 16. That is an exponential or a multiplication curve. So all you have to do to go from addition to multiplication is have healthy reproduction broad and wide multiple generations into the future.Todd Wilson — Now we just take that to the church level, a church that plants a church that plants a church that plants a church broad and wide.Todd Wilson — Now you’ve gone from one church to 16 churches. And now look at the collective attendance of those 16 churches. That’s what you call healthy growth. That’s what you call multiplication when you keep reproducing it over and over.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And there’s actually been progress against this. This is one of the things that I’ve loved as a person just sitting on the outside looking in as you and the team, you know, Dave and the broader Exponential community have really been hammering away at this. You know, we’re not at 16% yet, but we’re seeing progress, which is which is amazing.Todd Wilson — Right. It’s in the studies that we did, and it’s been repeated a couple of times, the needle has moved to at least 7%. That may not sound like a lot, but if you go take the number of churches we’re talking about…Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — …and that needle moving from less than 5% to 7%. And we’re not taking credit for all that at Exponential. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — We’re getting to ride a wave that really started around 2000. Prior to 2000, denominations planted churches, not really churches or networks. We saw the birth of networks around 2000 in the U.S. It’s hard for people to realize, but like in the church planting world, groups like City to City and GlocalNet and Acts 29 and ARC and Church Multiplication Network and Stadia and New Thing Network, none of them existed.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — Literally in a five-year time period, we saw the birth of all these church planting networks, and that happened to coincide with that we saw that need to start Exponential to serve those networks.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So We we were a little bit the right group at the right place, advocating for the right thing.Todd Wilson — And I do think that generally the the wonderful thing is that as that needle is starting to move and the visibility is getting more and more, the next generation wants it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, I would agree.Todd Wilson — They want the scorecard of that. So I feel very optimistic that we’re still a ways away from 16%, but the needle is moving in the right direction.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would echo that too. I think there is, um you know, one of the couple years ago, I had one of those ages in my life flip over with zero on the end that you kind of notice and you reflect back on life a little bit. And I would say one of the things I’ve noticed over, you know, almost 30 years of ministry is this issue is has become more normative. Like it’s it’s a part of the conversation. It’s not that everyone’s doing it, but it’s in the dialogue, which I think is is wonderful.Rich Birch — Well, I, so you know, there’s, you interact with a lot of church leaders across the country. You interact with a lot of people, you have a pulse on a lot of, you know, what’s going on. And there’s a growing sense, you have flagged that there’s a growing sense among leaders that there’s just something wrong. It’s like, you know, there’s like a stink in the bottom of our, our, garbage that’s like, oh it’s a little bit stinky. It’s not like overwhelming, but we can’t put our finger on exactly what that is. Rich Birch — They can’t necessarily name it, but we feel it. We kind of see that there’s maybe something in the way we’re doing what we’re doing that isn’t working. What are you hearing as you sit across the table from church leaders in across the country, you know, around all of these things that we’re talking about?Todd Wilson — Let me describe it a couple of different ways. I think the the word I would put on it is an angst. I think if you look at the definition of an angst, there’s a there’s a growing and an underlying angst. um I’m going to say, if I’m descriptive of the angst, that might not be the way people would exactly say it but it’s how I translate what I’m hearing.Todd Wilson — We are working a lot harder to reach less people and we don’t like the cultural Christian product we’re getting. We’re working a lot harder. We’re spending more money to reach fewer people. And we’re just having this angst that the product we’re producing is a little bit too much consumer cultural Christian as we’re working harder and spending more money. And that leaves somebody full time, know, if I mean, if you’re a full time vocational pastor, there’s an angst that sits in the middle of that dynamic going on. Todd Wilson — My mentor and friend, Robert Lewis, who led Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock for years, Robert’s handed off the leadership back in 2005. Robert describes it this way. He did the foreword on my recent book, and when he read and reviewed the book, he said, Todd, oh my goodness, this is first and foremost a walk down history lane. It’s like going back and looking at history. Todd Wilson — But he said, here’s the thing. I had this angst in 2005. Everything was up and to the right. We were growing. We were doing new campuses. We had started a church planting. Like we’re doing all of the stuff. People are turning to us. They’re looking at what we’re doing. We had started a leadership conference. And I just had this angst that something wasn’t right.Todd Wilson — And he said, I couldn’t name it. He said, I needed a therapist. But where does a megachurch pastor who’s having nothing but success with up and to the right, who’s feeling angst about the system, where do you go for therapy in that? He’s like, I didn’t know whether to feel like I was being ungrateful or what.Todd Wilson — And his words were, as you’ve traced the 75 years of the church growth movement and its evolution into a consumer-driven operating system, you have named my angst. I wish I would have had this book in 2005 to name my angst because half the battle is getting our hands around understanding why we’re feeling the way we do.Rich Birch — Yeah, I was talking to denominational leader within the last year to kind of add a bit more flavor even to that angst, who was saying, and this is a fantastic denomination, you know, Jesus loving, you know, fantastic group of people um and have, you know, very similar what you’re saying, like lots of good things going on.Rich Birch — And this was one of those like, After dinner conversations, you know, long ah a long ways away from a bunch of leaders, we were just chatting on the sideline. And he said, you know, the interesting thing, when you look at our tribe, his movement, he rattled off all their stats. We have a certain number of churches. We have a certain number of pastors. We have a certain number of, you know, baptisms every year. It rattles all that off.Rich Birch — And he said, you know, if you were to look at where we were 20 years ago, the number of churches is the same, the number of, and rattled off all these stats that are the same. Like we’re baptizing the same number of people, the attendance is the same, the the like all these things. He said, the only thing that’s gone up in the last 20 years is we’ve doubled our staff head count. There’s twice as many staff today as there was. And when I read, heard about your book and you talk about this angst, I was like, ooh, that’s exactly what he was describing. He’s like, wait a second. what’s happening here. And him as a denominational leader, he had the same read, hey, there’s something wrong with the way we set this thing up. Rich Birch — So your book, let’s actually dive into a little bit. It starts really at 70 year arc from Donald McGavron from 1955, all the way to today. And so for a leader who’s never really stepped back and thought about the history of like, what, how did we get here? It’s the name of your book. Why does knowing what got us to where we are today, this kind of consumer operating system that you describe, why does, how does understanding that help us as we think about the future?Todd Wilson — It’s a really good question. And I’m not sure, honestly, that I when I, when I set out to write this book, that, that that was even driving me to begin with, but very quickly that became the, I realized that’s why I need to write this book.Todd Wilson — So let, let me explain. And I need to give you a little bit of background to explain, because it’s an important question.Rich Birch — Yep, yep, for sure.Todd Wilson — So when I think about the moment that, that I realized we had a problem. Like that that, okay, we’re on this trajectory, things are moving the right direction to the 16%, and I’m back in the leadership of Exponential now. And I’m realizing, oh my goodness, we really do have a problem. And here’s here was what that looked like. Todd Wilson — I believed we had started learning communities and we had very vibrant learning communities And our learning communities got started because we felt like we need to shift the paradigm of people’s measure of success in the scorecard of church. It was very much about we need to shift paradigm. Alan Hirsch was involved with this on how do we shift from just growing large things to growing decentralized things that saturate. And it was very much about scorecard.Todd Wilson — And if you think about it, we’re wanting to move the needle from 5% to 16%. That’s a scorecard thing. So our initiating event was scorecard. But as we got into these learning communities, which in my opinion were the best things we were doing at Exponential. I mean, they were six to eight month learning journeys and we would rock people’s paradigm.Todd Wilson — We really would. People would go through it and be like, Oh my goodness, I got to have a different view of success in the church.Rich Birch — Right. yeahTodd Wilson — And guess what? They’d go home and Sunday’s coming. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — There’s, services to run, there’s people to pastor, there’s things to do. And the aha moment for me came, Rich, when I realized the the whole definition of insanity, that if you just keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for a different outcome, but that’s insanity. And here I am trying to lead a national organization to see a change in scorecard to move the needle to 16%.Todd Wilson — And I remember the day that I realized we’re not going to get there with the operating system we have in place in church right now. This operating system is not capable of getting us to the 16% number.Todd Wilson — That was a personal crisis. I’m leading an organization that’s up and to the right that the needle is moving. But as a futurist, I’m realizing we’re not going to get where we need to be with the operating system in the church. So the the operating system part was what drove me to start writing this book. I’ll let you ask a question there, and then we’ll circle back to the how does it relate to understanding how we got here, though.Rich Birch — Yeah, so ah just to underline what you’re saying there, um you know in in other conversations, I’ve heard leaders say, you know it’s like, um you know what you know what you reach people with is what you end up keeping them with. And so if what I hear you saying, just putting, I think, other language around it, but correct me, is kind of a consumer-oriented or a consumer cultural operating system that we’ve we’ve used as a church… Todd Wilson — Right.Rich Birch — …you know, obviously by definition, if you ah use a um consumption-based model, that doesn’t, leave you it’s very difficult to turn around and say, okay, now become a multiplier. You know, we got you here as a consumer. Okay, now how do we make you a multiplier? Is that the core pain?Todd Wilson — It is. And Rich, you’re painting the picture of why looking back to understand how we got here is important. If it’s true, that are ah If it’s true, and I want to suggest people ought to go look at it for themselves, that the underlying operating system that has evolved over the last 75 years, it’s not where it started with Donald McGavern in 1955. And there was never bad intentions by any of the good people through the 70 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Todd Wilson — We have evolved from what was originally one thing. into a consumer model that is way more focused on success is growing big, success is making converts, not necessarily disciples. And we we can diagnose that if there’s a problem today, and I suggest there is a problem today, then how we got here and understanding how over 70 years, what was intended to be one thing, gradually (like the frog getting boiled in cold water) turned into something else.Todd Wilson — We’ve got to go through the the, if we really want to change the operating system, and I’ve seen how hard it is, guys can have the paradigm shift. We need to change. Then they go back home into the operating system that they’re operating in. And it is really, really hard to just throw off one operating system and embrace another oneTodd Wilson — And I wouldn’t even encourage people to do that. Don’t go home and just change your operating system overnight. But if you do want to make thoughtful, progressive change, the best way to do it is to start by going back and learn the lesson of how did we get where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — How did things get off track to where to where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — And that’s what ended you know, I started out the book really to go after understanding the operating system itself. And very quickly came to the conclusion, oh, we I’m not sure how we’re going to move to a new operating system if people don’t go through the hard work of looking back and understanding how well-intentioned people over time have delivered for us what we have today in a flawed system.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, I know, again, from my own personal experience, not to bring this back to me, but to my own personal experience, again, it’s been interesting to see similar patterns. You know, every couple years, there’s like some new idea that comes up in the church. And oftentimes I’m like, yeah, this is just like of rehash of a thing I saw 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago.Rich Birch — It’s like, oh, this is is brand new. It’s like, ah, it’s echoes of things we’ve seen in the past. So why don’t we just kind of give people a flyover or a walkover of the kind of eras that you kind of define as you went through the book, just to give people a high level. Rich Birch — Ultimately friends, you know, I’m encouraging you to to do two things out of today. One is to pick up, I think this could be a great book for you and your team to go through. You and your leadership team, buy copies of this, read it. I think it could be an interesting book for you or, and go and listen to Todd’s interview with Carey as well. Carey just takes longer in his podcast and has more time. So there’s going to be, there’s lots packed into that as well. Rich Birch — But why don’t you kind of give us a flyover of the eras? And then maybe when you think about each one of those, something that was like, really positive that came from that area something like hey there’s something good there or maybe there’s something there that we’ve got to be cautious about as we think about the future.Todd Wilson — Yeah. And just to be clear, Rich, you know this, ah I’m a local church guy. My calling is a local church. I’m still on staff at a local church. I love the local church. So this part of the, difficulty for me in spending two years and over a hundred hours of interviews and putting this timeline of history together is I love the church.Todd Wilson — And I I, don’t know that I’d be sitting here talking to you if it weren’t for several of these eras I’m getting ready to name to you. So you’ve got really, I think a common thread through across these areas as we jump into them is typically apostolic, evangelistically driven leaders who really want to reach people. Hell is real. Lost people are going there. We got to reach them. And I think that’s the driving factor across all these eras is well-intentioned people…Todd Wilson — And if I can start with the end point, I think we’ve sort of co-opted the more holistic disciple-making growth engine that’s capable of generational disciple-making with strategies for institutional programmatic growth that are not capable of reproduction. They’re very good at growing large things and reaching lots of people, but not necessarily making, you know, through relational disciple making, disciples who make disciples who plant churches that plant churches.Todd Wilson — So here’s how I would do the flyover. When I got started writing this history, I thought I was doing one chapter of this history in another book. Rich Birch — I love it.Todd Wilson — And one chapter turned into two chapters and three chapters. And eventually my editor said, Todd, you just need to do a full book.Rich Birch — Well, that’s a book.Todd Wilson — And it ends up turning into the longest book I’ve written because of the 75 year history. And ah Rich, seriously, don’t, people don’t need to feel bad if they don’t know all the history. I, I’m like a where’s Waldo through a lot of this history. I’ve had a seat at the table for a lot of the stuff through these eras.Todd Wilson — Until writing this book, I did not know how all the dots connected across these eras. And then it became there were so many, oh, oh, oh. So here’s here’s the shot I’ll give to you. Ididn’t really I knew I had heard of Donald McGavern. I knew he was considered the father of the modern church growth movement. I’ve never, prior to writing this book, read about him, gone off and studied him. Gary McIntosh is his by is Donald McGavern’s biographer. So I spent a lot of time with Gary. He pointed me in the right directions.Todd Wilson — And here’s what I learned. Donald McGavern, born in the late 1800s, international missionary in India. um His father and mother were missionaries in India. He came from the mission field and his context was the international mission field. Todd Wilson — Now, get this as the starting point in 1955. He’s an international missionary. He has planted 15 churches himself in his career, none of which ever grew to more than 100 people. So you got to let that sink in. The father of the modern church growth movement planted 15 churches, none of which grew to more than 100. And yet he’s the father of what we consider now the modern church growth movement.Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.Todd Wilson — So the kind the context was, he became fascinated after reading a research report on why some churches in provinces in India were growing and others weren’t. Sometimes churches in the same village that were growing and just down the street, others weren’t.Todd Wilson — So he kind of took a scientific approach, the study of church growth. Like let’s study this like it’s a science, like what’s causing some churches to grow. And he he had very clear conclusions out of that, but you know, a handful of conclusions of what’s causing that.Todd Wilson — And so ultimately, when he came off the mission field by 1960, 61, he started the Church Growth Institute, not for U.S. pastors, but for international missionaries who were on furlough to come home and learn about church growth principles that they could take back to the international mission field. He had no interest in U.S. pastors. Todd Wilson — So for multiple years in the 60s, he was doing that. And when Fuller wanted to start their International School of World Missions, one of their best faculty member ratings was Donald McGavern. So they invited him to come become the founding dean of the the Fuller School of World Missions.Todd Wilson — But he only agreed to do it if he could bring the Church Growth Institute with him. So by 1970, you’ve got that up and running. He’s built his team. He invited a guy called C. Peter Wagner off the mission field to come be on his faculty staff. And in 1970, 71, Peter Wagner convinced Donald McGavern that they ought to run one class for U.S. pastors on church growth.Todd Wilson — And the rest is history. That one class, it just turned into, Imean, people were very interested in it. Denominations became interested. And literally within a couple of years, you’ve got this up and to the right people latching on to church growth science.Todd Wilson — And that starts the process, you know. Even from the beginning, you start to see a little bit of co-opting away from McGavern’s things. Not fast, but a little bit. Todd Wilson — So right on the heels of that, in the 70s then, you’ve got this young kid, ah Bill Hybels… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — …who’s running you know going to go into business and he’s running a street ministry with youth. He’s being mentored by Robert Shuler.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — And Shuler’s got the possibility thinking, think outside the box, very apostolic. Turns out Shuler not only mentors Hybels, but there’s some mentoring of Rick Warren. And so you’ve got the birth of the seeker-sensitive era then.Todd Wilson — You know, if the first era was the McGavern-Roots era, now we’ve got the seeker-sensitive era. And, you know, that can be a positive or a negative stigma. For me, in 1976, I’m in middle school going into high school, not a Christian, live down the street from this movie theater called the Willow Creek Movie Theater. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — And my mom drags us kicking and screaming into the Willow Creek Movie Theater. We were the avatar family for the Seeker Sensitive family movement.Rich Birch — Right. Movement.Todd Wilson — From Seeker Sensitive, you get out of that the what Peter Drucker and Bob Buford would call the large church phenomena and the birth of Leadership Network then with the large church phenomena, which became the megachurch phenomena.Todd Wilson — You’ve got Rick Warren and his masterful work with the purpose-driven church. Rick’s able to put handles on this church growth part, but Rick was a disciple of Donald McGavern, so he’s got the McGavern roots. Todd Wilson — You’ve got Hybels with the Shuler roots. And in that 80 into the 90s with the birth of the Global Leadership Summit and the other, you’ve you’ve got this very influential large church phenomena, purpose-driven, being shaped by, you know, in large part, the combination of Leadership Network, Hybels, Rick Warren… And that brings us up to you know about 2000. Todd Wilson — And just as a flyover, I would then call the era of the externally focused church. You’ve got the rapid fire birth of church planting networks. You’ve got multi-site. People don’t realize prior to 2000, there’s less than 50 multi-site churches.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — Leadership Network engages it in 2000. And from 2000 to 2010 you see an up, I mean, radically up and to the right.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The externally focused church, same thing. Rick Russo has book right in that time period. The missional guys, right in that time period. So the common theme between these church planning networks, the missional guys, the externally focused guys, the multi-site, is we’re now looking outside of ourselves.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — But in large part, we’re still looking outside of ourselves as growth strategies for our things. If you really go look under the hood of a lot of those.Todd Wilson — And then I would say coming out of the externally or outwardly focused era, 2015 to 2025, I just have no other name than the disruption era. As I was doing the research on this book, um I had to stop at like 12 major disruptions that happened in that time period with COVID right in the middle. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so that’s the…Rich Birch — Political upheaval. There’s a bunch in there in that same, you know, yeah, that there’s been a schism.Todd Wilson — You’ve got deconstruction of faith.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You’ve got cynicism. You’ve got platformed individualism with the birth of social media. Now anybody can be their own, you know, playlist influencer. There’s just so many disruptive factors in there.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Now you look at all those disruptive factors with the evolution of what’s happening in the church and the church operating system. And it leaves us on a very shaky foundation at that point that, you know It kind of brings us up to where we are now, and you can either be a pessimist at that or an optimist. And I choose the optimist path that we’re poised for a new day and a new operating system is my prayer.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And friends, as you can see, you just got a real thin slice of, you know, just all the various phases that you do such a great job unpacking for us to help us really understand how we we got here. It was It was wild, it’s wild thinking about a lot of that because I remember, you know, various phases of those over the last particularly 25 years, you know, seeing that up close and seeing, you know, kind of the impact that has had and then wondering about the future and where we go from here. Rich Birch — So thinking about the future and, you know, obviously you’ve, um you know, you’ve you’re making a clear clarion call around, hey, we’ve got to think differently than the consumer driven operating system. We’ve got to we’ve got to come up with something different. After all of that, um and we’ve kind of covered this already, but I’d love to make sure we kind of hone on this, have this resonate with people that are listening in. Why is it so difficult for that system, for the consumer-driven operating system to to really ultimately produce healthy reproduction and multiplication and in churches? What’s structurally ah broken about it? And what what would be some first steps we should be thinking about change to the future as we think about, okay, where we go from here? Todd Wilson — Yeah.Rich Birch — How do we, you know, build on the positive stuff, but also look for something different as we look to the future? Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think we don’t have to make it complex, Rich, if we just keep trying to come back to simplicity for a minute. Like the system that has evolved has actually become pretty complex when you think about it. I would say if we could just focus on, I’m not even going to say changing overnight, but if if I’m a lead pastor, if I’m on staff at a church, I’m really focused on disciple-making as the core mission and growth engine of the church. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Like what is it, most churches are going to say our mission is disciple making or it’s going to be part of it. They’re going to say we have a culture of disciple making, but it is not what the data shows. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — You know, again, 95% of churches do not have a culture of disciple-making. They have a culture of program activity. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so I’m not an advocate of changing everything overnight, but if you want to shift from a culture of program activity to a true culture of disciple-making‚ it has to start with the lead minister having a simple, reproducible, in-practice disciple-making approach that is being modeled for the… I don’t mean discipling the staff. I mean there’s people the lead pastor are personally discipling, modeling that simple, reproducible process. Todd Wilson — Where we’re starting to see traction and where I think the breakthroughs are going to come in getting us to the new operating system of the future, it is going to start, and it’s it’s happening right now, with pastors who say, you know, if I’m really honest, I’ve been preaching the last 52 weeks. I’ve been leading meetings. I’ve been doing, I’ve been doing, I’ve done, but I’m not really personally making disciples. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And I think it’s going to start with the lead pastor, the elders, senior people saying, If we could only have one metric of success in the next 12 months, it’s not growth, it’s not the activities we do, it’s not the new building. If we only have one measure of success, it’s how many disciples have I personally, relationally been involved in? me Not how many have I preached to, not how many outreach events have we done where we’ve got, but what have I personally done on the disciple-making front?Todd Wilson — And I don’t want to make it more complicated than that. That’s what we’re missing right now.Rich Birch — That’s good. No, that’s really good. Yeah, that’s good. I love the practical takeaway of, um yeah, it’s like, who are the three people in your life that you’re actually discipling? Let’s start there. Rich Birch — So this is kind of a sidebar to it.Todd Wilson — Can I just look real quick?Rich Birch — Yes. Yep. Push back. Yep.Todd Wilson — So David Putman, who’s part of what we do at Multipliers, David’s longtime kingdom guy.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You should have him on as an interview here. David is completely focused on what he calls the 5-3-2 right now. Five simple reproducible principles, three rhythms, and and two relationships. So it’s a triad of three people that just keeps reproducing.Todd Wilson — Anybody can do it. A ninth grader can do it. A lead pastor can do it. I’m watching this model take different groups by storm right now. And whether you embrace the 5-3-2 or some other model like it, the key is going to be having a simple, reproducible process that works for the lead pastor and anyone else in the church. Same model.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah we had David on back in 2020 and I’m like we got to get him back on uh the podcast. Rich Birch — So sidebar issue, so this is not something we’d you know kicked around ahead of time but it’s kind of adjacent to this. So I am not a I'm not a teaching pastor. Similar to you. I’m not, i never saw myself as a lead pastor. I’ve always been in the like, Hey, my job’s to be in the second chair, cheering for other lead pastors. I’ve worked for um really over my career as an XP three incredible communicator lead pastors who it would appear like, and it is, they, all three of them, God gifted them with this ability to speak and gather crowds. Like that was like core. And, and I, I’ve spent a lot of time like listening to them and watching them. And part of it just appears to be like, it’s definitely a gifting that’s going on there.Rich Birch — And I, over time, ah questions like the following would come up that I would I'd struggle with, where it’s like, it would appear like this person can gather a lot of people, and we can build more chairs in front of that person and people will hear that person and they’ll they’ll take steps towards Jesus. Rich Birch — And I understand that that’s not, or that’s not a full picture of discipleship. That’s one piece of the discipleship puzzle, but it’s not… And the the kind of organizational pressure is, okay, let’s keep figuring out how to build more seats in front of this person and and their gift. How do we get them to leverage their gift well? Rich Birch — And to be honest, I’ve been in conversations where I’ve been the voice of like, I want to line 100,000 people up in front of this person to hear this person speak because I think the way they talk about Jesus is different than what I’ve heard other people say and it it’ll make a difference. Rich Birch — That is, I think, at the center of this tension that there’s some there seems to be something about the gift of teaching that it’s not, I don’t know whether it’s not evenly distributed, or there’s like a brokenness in humanity and we only want to listen to certain kinds of people. I don’t know whether it’s one of those two things. So all I’ve done is describe a problem and I’m going to say, comment on it, Todd.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think you’re right on the mark. I think I want to affirm that, you know, I mean, everybody has their definitions. I believe the preaching role is, and and the teaching and reaching is a piece of the discipleship equation.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — I think if I’m defining the problem statement, We have made it the biggest piece… Rich Birch — Sure. Todd Wilson — …instead of a piece or a playing a role in it. So I think the issue is that how big we’ve made it. Like you, I was an executive pastor for years. And when I look back on that time, my role was not about holistic relational disciple making that could be the growth engine of the church. and it It was how do we get as many people in seats in the auditorium on Sunday? We need great marketing. We need great outreach.Todd Wilson — And again, I think all of those play a role in the disciple-making process ultimately. But let’s just be honest, that’s not disciple-making itself. It plays a role in the disciple-making process.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So the elephant in the room here is, how do we scale disciple-making? If I if I could be If I could be the czar of this, I’m not, but if I could be, I want the genius at the end. I want the unique gifts that are represented across the whole mosaic and the church, starting with that dynamic creature that can attract the crowd. I want it. Todd Wilson — But I also want those senior leaders of the organization I really want to be focused on what is our growth engine and what is our holistic disciple-making process. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And the number one thing I want from those senior leaders is not their unique gift. I want their modeling, their personal modeling of the simple, reproducible, disciple-making growth engine that anybody in the church can do. Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — I mean, that that preaching gift you’re talking about, that that one lead pastor can do, how many other people in the church can do that?Rich Birch — Right. Not many. Yep.Todd Wilson — So there’s their paradigm. So we need them doing it.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — But I would argue what we need them doing even more than that inspiration is modeling the simple reproducible disciple making thing that people know that’s how we’re going to win here.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I’ve that lines up, I’ve said it at probably, well, not a thousand times, but hundreds of times with lead pastors over the years that in the context of this conversation, I would rather them weave in the discussion about their discipleship relationships as like just a normative part of conversation rather than the, we’re doing six weeks on discipleship and how to become disciple making. I’m like, if you just pepper that stuff in week in, week out, it just is a normative part of the conversation that changes culture. Rich Birch — The kind of like, we’re going to make it a program. We’re going to brand it. We’ve got a great name on it. And my experience has been, it’s it’s a little bit like nailing jello to the wall. There’s there’s actually some of that containing of what we’re talking about actually kills the exact thing that we’re trying to do. And so, man, I think there’s a real tension there. And how do we help those people? Rich Birch — Because it’s not like we want them to do a worse job. It’s not like, hey, if you could stop talking in a way that attracts a crowd, that’s not the answer. But we’ve got to, like you say, how do we move them into those personal relationships? That’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation…Todd Wilson — My question would be, Rich, what what would happen…Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — …if an average lead pastor went on a one-year journey to to of disciple-making themselves? Call it a triad, call it four, five. They’re always, over the next year, going to be in a disciple-making small micro group… Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Wilson — …and all of their preaching is going to be informed.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — That’s their laboratory of learning.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s their paradigm. Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — That’s their paradigm. And now they’re bringing it to life, not just as periodic examples, but, you know, my whole frame of reference of my library is what comes out of that experience. Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — And our problem right now is that’s just lack. It isn’t that it’s inserted a little bit. It’s just lacking.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, this has been great. what ah What a great conversation. And as you can tell, friends, there’s a lot we could talk about there. And a lot you know just there’s a rich conversation that could be had around this. Rich Birch — Let’s let’s pivot and kind of talk a little bit about the book specifically. i want to make sure people pick up copies of this. Again, the name of it is How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. People can get this on Amazon. Are there other places that you would send people if they want to pick up copies of this?Todd Wilson — Yeah. So if they go to church-growth.org, church-growth.org, that’s the book’s homepage. You can actually get the free PDF there. You can get the free audio version there. There’s a full wiki there that people can contribute to. What you kind of mentioned it in passing, but I’ll highlight, it is impossible to read this book and not see yourself in it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.Todd Wilson — Anyone who’s been a Christian for a while, they, the editor of the book said the power of this is going to be, she said, I can tell you the page in the book that I entered the story. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Todd Wilson — So you’ve got the free PDF, the free audio, the wiki, and then for people that just want the paper versions, you can get it on Amazon.Rich Birch — That’s great. And we’ll link to that friends so that you can, you know, find that quickly in the show notes and, and friends, I would encourage you again, to me, I think this could be a great resource to do with your leadership team, as I mentioned earlier. It would be a great kind of conversation starter and really context setter for us to think through these issues as we think about the future. Rich Birch — So kind of as we, as we come to close up today’s conversation, any final words as we wrap up today?Todd Wilson — Rich, I just appreciate the work you’re doing. I want to be an encouragement to pastors. Don’t let this book be, it’s not a deconstruction book. It’s not, oh my goodness, the church has fallen apart.Rich Birch — No, yeah.Todd Wilson — We need to keep plugging away doing what we’re doing, but we also have to have an eye on the future that this operating system that has evolved, everything has a beginning and an end. And this operating system, I believe, is in its final days. I think we’re we’re seeing you know less and less effectiveness with it. And I think we just need to be in a posture of giving permission to the next generations to do some trial and error and experimentation and not be locked into the paradigm of the of the past inheriting previous things.Rich Birch — No, fantastic, Todd. I appreciate you being here. And I would echo that, you know, you’re you’re the kind of leader that’s in our corner trying to help us get better. And so I appreciate the voice that you’ve had for for decades. And so I really appreciate that. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you, get connected, follow along with Multipliers where do we want to send them online?Todd Wilson — Multipliers.org can get me to all the different ways from email to phone to social media. So multipliers.org.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Todd. Appreciate you being here, sir.Todd Wilson — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate it.

A timeless time capsule episode featuring special guest: Earon James Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

GET YOUR CHAOS SCORE: https://prochur.ch/4bSjIZf Ask how to sign up for an event and you'll get five different answers. Fewer options equals more action. Today, we'll unpack the series capstone - one destination for every next step - and the steps to launch yours. ============================= Table of Contents: ============================= 0:00 - Intro 2:53 - The 7 Building Blocks 6:20 - Where This Philosophy Came From 9:20 - Building Block #7: Launch Your Central Hub 17:03 - Testimonies From Real Churches 20:38 - How Movie Theaters Get This Right 24:28 - The Three Rules Of The Central Hub 33:27 - The Physical On-ramp 40:06 - Final Thoughts IMPORTANT LINKS GET YOUR CHAOS SCORE: https://prochur.ch/4bSjIZf The 7 Building Blocks PDF: https://prochur.ch/building-blocks The Church Communications Masterclass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aETNv9BoDzQ The Launcher: https://www.nucleus.church/the-launcher THE 167 NEWSLETTER

ICE agents infiltrated churches, activist meetings, libraries, and community organizations in Minnesota as part of what has been dubbed Operation Puppet Master. In this episode of Axis Live, Matthew D. Taylor and Rev. Susie Hayward discuss what newly disclosed documents reveal about the government's surveillance of protesters—and what it means for religious freedom, constitutional rights, and the future of democracy. They also examine the growing anti-Muslim campaign targeting Dearborn, Michigan, including a planned "Crusader March" backed by MAGA activists, and explore how Christian nationalism is fueling new forms of religious exclusion. Finally, Taylor and Hayward discuss the dismantling of the U.S. Institute of Peace, the loss of religious expertise within American foreign policy, and what the current crisis tells us about the health of American democracy—and where hope for a democratic revival might come from.