The Ezra Klein Show

The internet is rife with chatter about “heteropessimism,” the feeling that gender relations are broken and heterosexual relationships are doomed. But is this just cynical discourse, like a coping mechanism for bad dates? Or is this a symptom of a much deeper, systemic breakdown? In this episode of The Gray Area, guest host Jonquilyn Hill is joined by Sarah Jones, senior writer for The Intelligencer. Together, they peel back the performative irony to look at the harsh realities of dating in a post-Dobbs, politically volatile United States. From the economic structures that make leaving bad relationships feel impossible, to the "manosphere" versus the "pink pill," Sarah and Jonquilyn discuss why we are struggling to connect — and why "hopeful pessimism" might be the most responsible way to build a future. Host: Jonquilyn Hill, host of Explain It To Me Guest: Sarah Jones, senior writer, IntelligencerWe would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What happens when we read less? What does that do to our ability to understand complex ideas, or even think for ourselves?In today's episode, guest host Jonquilyn Hill speaks with Atlantic staff writer Rose Horowitch. In her recent cover story, Rose argues that we are entering a postliterate age. Although we're surrounded by text — like emails, text messages, and notifications — we no longer have an interest in reading longer, book-length content. Jonquilyn and Rose discuss how the digital age has transformed the way we consume information, what deep reading teaches us that scrolling can't, and how being postliterate is changing our politics and culture. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Gray Area is taking a short break this week — but we've got something special for you. We're dropping an episode from one of our favorite podcasts, Unexplainable. In it, host Noam Hassenfeld and Vox senior reporter Sigal Samuel explore one of the biggest dilemmas facing growing families: How much should parents decide about their children's future from prenatal testing alone? Noam and Sigal wrestle with the moral dilemmas surrounding genetic testing, parental choice, and the limitations of trying to predict the future. Host: Noam Hassenfeld, Host of Unexplainable Guest: Sigal Samuel, Vox Senior Reporter Listen to more Unexplainable episodes here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unexplainable/id1554578197Read Sigal's advice column here: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/459003/designer-babies-embryo-selection-polygenic-testing-ethics We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer and philosopher Ian Bogost about his new book The Small Stuff. They discuss what modern life has lost in its pursuit of convenience, efficiency, and optimization. From stick shifts to coffee cups, lawnmowers, and smartphones, Bogost argues that many of the small sensory experiences that once connected us to the physical world have quietly disappeared. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Ian Bogost We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The internet is changing. For years our primary gateway to the internet has been search engines: we ask a question, a list of websites pops up, and we choose which ones to click on. But we are rapidly headed towards a different model, one in which AI-generated answers to our questions are our primary gateway to the internet. How we got here starts with Google. In today's episode, guest host Miles Bryan interviews journalist Ryan Broderick to discuss “Google zero,” a point in time when Google stops pointing us towards a list of search results and instead only produces AI-generated answers. Miles and Ryan discuss the evolution of the internet, how search engine optimization changed content production, why AI may fundamentally change how we find information, and what the future of search might look like. Host: Miles Bryan, Vox Senior Producer and Reporter Guest: Ryan Broderick, Editor-in-Chief of Garbage Day We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing talks with neuroscientist Gregory Berns, author of The Self Delusion. Berns claims that the idea of a unified, persistent self is a kind of illusion, and that we are better understood as multiple selves at different moments in time, tied together by a story — which is what we call our identity. Sean and Greg also talk about whether the brain is a computer, how perception works, the limits of thinking too much about thinking, and what psychedelics can do to disrupt and change the stories we tell about ourselves. This episode originally aired in November of 2022. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Gregory Berns (@gberns), author; professor of psychology and distinguished professor of neuroeconomics, Emory University We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For years, right-wing influencers and politicians have pushed the conservative movement to have more controversial, anti-establishment views. Why are some of those figures now upset about where the movement has ended up? In today's episode, guest host Bryan Walsh speaks with Vox Senior Correspondent Zack Beauchamp about conservatives who decry the extremist direction that the right is moving but refuse to recognize the role they played in pushing the movement in that direction. The two discuss US Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY), pundit Ben Shapiro, podcaster Candace Owens, the drivers of conservative extremism, and what the party might look like after Donald Trump. Guest Host: Bryan Walsh, Vox Senior Editorial Director Guest: Zack Beauchamp, Vox Senior CorrespondentRead Zack's essay: The MAGA stars freaked out by their own movement We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Birth rates are dropping and global population growth is slowing. Why? We're heard all the different speculation: It's the economy. It's housing costs. It's the feminists. But what if the biggest driver is that thing we all carry in our pockets? In today's episode, guest host Christine Emba speaks with data journalist John Burn-Murdoch about declining fertility rates across vastly different cultures and economies. They discuss the role smartphones might play in this phenomenon, why governments have struggled to reverse the trend, and how dropping birthrates could change our economy and culture. Guest Host Christine Emba, columnist and author Guest: John Burn-Murdoch, Chief Data Reporter for The Financial Times We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

AI was supposed to make our lives better. Instead, it's made many of us scared and angry. Communities are protesting data centers across the country, and polling shows most Americans think AI is moving too fast.In today's episode, guest host Miles Bryan talks with independent journalist Jasmine Sun, who argues that public attitudes toward AI are undergoing a fundamental shift. Jasmine argues that AI is seen not simply as a technology to adopt, but as an elite political project to resist. The two discuss “AI populism,” the parallels with the Industrial Revolution, how public opinion about AI may affect US politics, and how the leaders of Silicon Valley are unprepared for the growing backlash against AI. Guest Host: Miles Bryan, Vox reporter and senior producer Guest:Jasmine Sun, journalist Find Jasmine's Substack here: https://jasmi.news/ We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer Liz Bruenig about faith, doubt, and the experience of believing in God in a modern, skeptical age. They discuss religious experience, the limits of science, the appeal of cynicism, Dostoevsky, beauty, mystery, and whether belief is ultimately a choice. They also explore why religion persists and whether living with uncertainty is itself a form of faith. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Elizabeth Bruenig (@ebruenig) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with journalist David Wallace-Wells about a looming climate event that could make 2027 one of the hottest years ever recorded. They discuss the return of El Niño, why some scientists are calling it a “Godzilla El Niño,” and what it could reveal about the future of global warming. They also explore climate adaptation, political complacency, extreme weather, technological progress, and whether humanity is prepared for the world it's creating. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: David Wallace-Wells (@dwallacewells) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Who are America's heroes? Who deserves our admiration and a place in our nation's story? In today's episode, guest host Jonquilyn Hill talks with constitutional law professor Kermit Roosevelt about his book The Nation That Never Was: Reconstructing America's Story, which argues that America's most important ancestors are not the founding fathers but the heroes of Reconstruction. The two discuss the importance of founding myths, why Americans are constantly fighting over “the real America,” and what it means to be American. Guest Host: Jonquilyn Hill, Host of Vox's Explain It To Me podcast Guest: Kermit Roosevelt, constitutional law professor and author of The Nation That Never Was: Reconstructing America's Story We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy about the crisis lurking beneath America's political dysfunction. Murphy's new book “Crisis of the Common Good” argues that the country is suffering from a collapse of connection, belonging, and purpose. They discuss loneliness, powerlessness, liberalism, democracy, Trumpism, corporate power, social media, and why so many Americans feel disconnected from their communities, their institutions, and each other. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Sen. Chris Murphy (@ChrisMurphyCT) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with Atlantic writer Charlie Warzel about the increasingly weird experience of being online. They discuss AI-generated content, bots, algorithms, the “dead internet theory,” and why so much of the web now feels artificial, manipulated, or unreal. They also explore psyops, conspiracy culture, social media, and the deeper question lurking beneath the AI boom: What are human beings actually for? Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Charlie Warzel (@cwarzel) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with journalist Jordan Ritter Conn about his book “American Men,” an intimate look at four men trying to figure out what manhood and masculinity have given them versus what they have cost them, and what to do with the gap between the men they think they're supposed to be and the men they actually are. They talk about being fathers and sons as well as about violence, shame, ambition, male friendship, loneliness, and why being a “good man” might mean finally letting go of the desire to perform manhood. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Jordan Ritter Conn (@jordanconn) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Who gets to decide what's taught in college classrooms? And should the answer be different at private colleges than at public universities? In today's episode, guest host Avishay Artsy speaks to philosophy professor Martin Peterson about why Texas A&M University asked him to stop teaching part of Plato's “Symposium.” The two discuss academic freedom, who gets to decide what's taught in university classrooms, and the value of Plato's writing. The episode explores what happens when politics and educational values collide on campus. Host: Avishay Artsy, Vox Supervising Producer Guest: Martin Peterson, Professor of Philosophy at Texas A&M University We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with psychiatrist and neuroscientist Amir Levine about attachment, insecurity, and why our relationships shape us more than we think. They discuss his updated framework for anxious, avoidant, and secure attachment styles, why being ignored or excluded can feel so threatening, and how small everyday interactions can either calm the brain or send it spiraling. They also dig into childhood dynamics, therapy, conflict, friendship, loneliness, and different ways we can build more secure lives.Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Amir Levine, psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and author of Secure: the revolutionary guide to creating a secure life We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer Sigal Samuel about AI successionism, the growing movement that sees artificial intelligence as humanity's rightful successor. They discuss why some people in the AI world think humanity should be replaced, how this vision borrows from old religious ideas about salvation and transcendence, and why artificial intelligence is a dangerous thing to worship.Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel) Click here to read Sigal's article on AI successionism. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with dream scientist Michelle Carr about what dreams are, why we have them, and what they might reveal about the mind. They discuss nightmares, lucid dreaming, memory, consciousness, and whether dreams are just random brain noise or a kind of overnight therapy. They also explore why dreams feel so real and what the strange world of sleep can teach us about waking life.Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Michelle Carr We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Americans have absorbed the Protestant work ethic: the idea that our value as human beings – and our eventual salvation – is determined by how hard we work. Political philosopher Elizabeth Anderson explains how this evolved, why it pervades everything, and why it's no longer serving us.This episode originally aired in January of 2024. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)Guest: Elizabeth Anderson, professor of public philosophy at the University of Michigan. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer Christine Emba about the strange and increasingly anti-social world young people are inheriting online. They discuss the rise of “looksmaxxing,” the manosphere, Gen Z's retreat from dating and sex, and how the internet has transformed what might have been normal insecurities into a permanent state of anxiety and self-optimization. Along the way, they explore loneliness, intimacy, masculinity, social media, and what happens to a society when human connection starts to feel unbearable. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Christine Emba (@ChristineEmba) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with University of Chicago psychologist Nicholas Epley about the strange gap between our need to be social and how social we choose to be. They explore why we underestimate how good conversations will feel, why awkwardness looms so large in our minds, and how small acts of connection can make us happier, less lonely, and more open to the people around us. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Nicholas Epley We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Almost a decade ago, Tom Nichols warned that Americans were losing respect for expertise. He didn't expect things to get this bad. Sean talks with Nichols about his 2017 book “The Death of Expertise” and what's happened since: why people don't just distrust experts but actively push back against them, how the internet turns bad ideas into communities, and why a society that can't agree on basic facts can't function for long. They also dig into the deeper causes: loneliness, narcissism, and the weird psychology of living in a world where everything “just works.” Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer David Epstein about why unlimited freedom and endless choice often make us less creative, less focused, and less fulfilled. They discuss the hidden power of constraints, the psychology of attention, why humans struggle with too many options, and how useful limits can help us do better work and live more meaningful lives. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: David Epstein (@DavidEpstein) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

College was supposed to be a ticket to a better life. A degree meant a good job, a decent salary, and a brighter future. That promise is breaking down. For many graduates, a college degree no longer guarantees economic security or upward mobility. In today's episode, guest host Miles Bryan talks with reporter and author Noam Scheiber about his new book, Mutiny: The Rise and Revolt of the College-Educated Working Class, which argues that the economic prospects for college graduates have steadily eroded since the mid-2000s. The result is scrambling our politics. Miles and Noam discuss why college graduates are increasingly drawn to socialist politicians like Bernie Sanders and Zohran Mamdani, why they've become some of the strongest supporters of organized labor, and how economic frustration among educated workers could transform the American political landscape. Host: Miles Bryan, Vox reporter and senior producer Guest: Noam Scheiber, New York Times reporter and author of Mutiny: The Rise and Revolt of the College-Educated Working ClassWe would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If someone asked you to describe the state of the world right now, odds are you'd reach for the bad news first: political division, AI panic, war, ecological crisis, unraveling everywhere. And none of that is imaginary. But Rebecca Solnit thinks the pessimistic view is incomplete. We're good at seeing catastrophe and reversal, and much worse at seeing the slower, more positive transformations that unfold over decades. Solnit's new book, The Beginning Comes After the End, is an argument for noticing those changes without denying the darkness of the present. She joins Sean to talk about hope, backlash, political despair, and why fragile victories are still victories worth defending. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Rebecca Solnit  We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.  And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with Vox senior correspondent Anna North about the strange rise of the “Make America Healthy Again” (MAHA) movement. They explore why MAHA resonates, especially with younger people, how legitimate concerns about food and public health blur into conspiracy thinking, and why social media has become such a powerful engine for both. They also discuss the collapse of trust in institutions, the emotional logic behind wellness movements, and what it would take to rebuild trust in science and public health. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Anna North (@annanorthtweets) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with psychologist Dacher Keltner about the science of awe and why it might be one of the most important emotions we have. They explore how awe quiets the ego, shifts our attention away from ourselves, and reconnects us to other people, nature, and larger patterns of meaning. Along the way, they discuss why music, moral courage, and even grief can trigger awe, how modern life may be starving us of it, and what it reveals about the limits of reason, the power of the body, and the deeper ways we make sense of being human. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Dacher Keltner We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everyone says having kids changes your life. That's true. But it's not the whole story. Sean talks with author Derek Thompson about fatherhood, how raising kids can shock you, and why parenting feels not so much “hard” as “nonstop.” They explore the weird psychology of loving something more than yourself, the loss of control over your own time, and the bittersweet realization that every moment with your child is already slipping away. Also: why two kids is not just twice the work, and why you might still want to get on the ride anyway. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Derek Thompson (@DKThomp) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with psychologist Alison Gopnik about how children think, learn, experience the world, and why their minds may be more powerful than ours in some crucial ways. They explore the idea that kids are the “research and development” wing of the human species, built for exploration, curiosity, and discovery, while adults are optimized for focus, efficiency, and getting things done. Along the way, they discuss why children notice things we've stopped seeing, what we lose when we grow up, and what parenting reveals about love, care, and the nature of intelligence itself. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Alison Gopnik (@AlisonGopnik) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Supreme Court is aggressive on almost everything. Except the internet. Sean talks with Vox's Ian Millhiser about a surprising pattern at the Court. While the Court has been eager to reshape schools, healthcare, and civil rights law, it has consistently taken a cautious, almost hands-off approach to regulating the internet. They unpack a recent case involving music piracy, the broader legal fight over who's responsible for what happens online, and why even a highly ideological Court seems wary of breaking the digital world. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Ian Millhiser (@imillhiser) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Pentagon has spent years building AI tools to help identify targets, speed up battlefield decisions, and make war more “efficient.” What started as an effort to analyze drone footage has grown into something bigger and much more unsettling. Sean talks with Bloomberg's Katrina Manson about Project Maven, the Defense Department's long-running push to bring AI into warfighting. They discuss how these systems actually work, what “human in the loop” really means, why autonomy is no longer some far-off sci-fi scenario, and what happens when the speed and scale of machine decision-making collide with the fog of war.  Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Katrina Manson (@KatrinaManson) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Back in 2015, before President Donald Trump, before January 6, before all the craziness of the last decade, Matt Yglesias made a blunt prediction: American democracy is doomed. Guest host Zack Beauchamp talks with Matt about what that argument got right, what it missed, and why the real problem might not be any one politician but the structure of the system itself. They get into presidential power, partisan loyalty, why Congress keeps folding, and how the two-party system might be quietly making everything worse. They also discuss what it would actually take to fix it — or whether things have to completely break first. Host: Zack Beauchamp (@zackbeauchamp) Guest: Matt Yglesias (@mattyglesias) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What does it mean to be “woke”? It's become a catch-all term to smear or dismiss anything that has any vague association with progressive politics. So anytime you venture into an argument about “wokeness,” it becomes hopelessly entangled in a broader cultural battle. Today's guest, journalist and professor Musa al-Gharbi, helps us untangle “wokeness” from its fraught political context. The author of the book, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite, al-Gharbi discusses what effects the movement is and isn't having on our society. This episode originally aired in November 2024. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Musa al-Gharbi (@Musa_alGharbi) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.  And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's easy to forgive other people because you don't have to live inside their head. Forgiving yourself is different and much, much harder. Sean Illing is joined by philosopher Myisha Cherry to talk about what it actually means to forgive yourself without letting yourself off the hook. They discuss the difference between guilt and shame (one can push you to repair, while the other just makes you want to hide), why even small screwups can leave a lingering moral aftertaste, and how regret can either trap you in self-reproach or become fuel for doing better. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Myisha Cherry (@myishacherry) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Kalle Lasn has been trying to jam consumer culture for decades. Now he thinks that was only the beginning. Sean talks with the Adbusters founder about advertising, culture jamming, meme warfare, surveillance capitalism, and why he believes the old left-right political script is dead. Lasn argues that consumer culture is not just shallow or manipulative but part of a system pushing us toward collapse. His answer is bigger than protest and weirder than reform. He wants a cultural revolution that starts with new ideas, new language, and maybe an entirely new politics. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)  Guest: Kalle Lasn (@KalleLasn) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Gray Area is taking a short break this week — but we've got something special for you. We're dropping an episode from one of our favorite podcasts, Unexplainable. In it, host Emily Siner explores deceptively simple questions: What is a musical note? And how did something as fundamental as the note A become standardized across the world? It's a story about science, history, and the hidden complexity behind the sounds we listen to every day.We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why do humans have this deep need to feel like we matter?  Sean Illing talks with the philosopher Rebecca Goldstein about why “mattering” is not the same thing as being important, how the hunger for validation can go really, really badly, and the different ways we try to justify our lives to ourselves. Love. God. Winning. Greatness. Service.  Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Rebecca Goldstein, author of The Mattering Instinct We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Something is definitely happening in the AI world, but how seriously should we take it? Is this another hype cycle or a genuine inflection point? Sean Illing talks with journalist Kelsey Piper (formerly of Vox, now at The Argument) about what's changed, why AI “agents” are a different beast than yesterday's chatbots, and why the debate is stuck between two lazy positions: total panic or total shrug. They get into the incentives driving the labs, what “alignment” even means, and why the real fear isn't Terminator-style robots, but powerful systems sliding into everything before we're ready. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Kelsey Piper (@KelseyTuoc) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is consciousness, really? We don't know. Scientists aren't sure. Philosophers can't agree. All we have is the fact that it feels like something to be you right now. Beyond that, human consciousness remains a complete mystery. Sean talks with Michael Pollan about his new book, A World Appears, which is about what we do and don't know about consciousness and why it continues to be one of the great miracles of nature. They get into why consciousness has proven so hard to define, whether the self is real or just a useful fiction, what psychedelics and meditation reveal about the mind, and why even serious neuroscientists are starting to question strict materialism. Along the way, they wander into plant intelligence, AI psychosis, ego death, and the unsettling possibility that not knowing might actually be the right place to land. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Michael Pollan, author of A World Appears (@michaelpollan) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com, or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Venezuela. Greenland. Iran. Things have been moving so quickly that we weren't even at war with Iran when we recorded this episode of The Gray Area with Sean Illing. It's only March, but it's been a long year.  The war in Iran is only the latest sign that something deep is shifting in our global politics.  Alliances fraying. Norms weakening. Democracies wobbling. So what exactly is happening? Is the liberal international order slowly eroding? Is it just going through a particularly turbulent chapter? Or are we watching it all collapse? Sean talks with Zack Beauchamp, author of Vox's On the Right newsletter, about the global democratic backslide and whether the American-led liberal order is slipping, imploding, or just going through a rough patch. Their conversation, which was recorded before the conflict in Iran, digs into the Greenland saga, alliance politics, and why democratic decay can be both obvious and hard to see at the same time.  Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Zack Beauchamp (@zackbeauchamp) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.  And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Addiction is one of those words that seems obvious until you try to explain it. We tend to fall back on two simple stories. Either addiction is a moral failure or it's a brain disease that robs people of agency entirely. But neither of those stories feels complete. Today's guest is philosopher Hanna Pickard, author of What Would You Do Alone in a Cage With Nothing But Cocaine? Pickard argues that it's a harmful mistake to treat addiction as either sin or sickness. Instead, it's a form of behavior that's shaped by trauma, isolation, identity, social conditions, and often deep psychological pain. Sean and Hanna talk about her theory of addiction and why our society has built the cage that so many people are trying to escape. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Hanna Pickard, author of What Would You Do Alone in a Cage With Nothing But Cocaine? We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices