Podcasts about marie it

[00:01] Sara: Ready to create rock solid relationships with the people that matter most to you. [00:05] Sara: You are in the right place. [00:07] Sara: My name is Sarah Payne, and I'm a master. Certified relationships coach. And each week I teach you how to create the connection and love that you desire, because you know that the quality of your life is directly related to the quality of your relationships. I'm so glad you're here. Safe episode for you, where I get to interview Marie Poulter, who is a life coach and who specializes in helping people overcome their habit of viewing ***********. And I think this episode will be really insightful for you if either you want to stop looking at *********** or you have someone in your life who wants to stop looking at ***********. Marie's take on *********** is possibly different than any other way that you've thought about it before, and I think that it's so enlightening and refreshing. So tune in to listen to how to overcome your own habit of viewing *********** or to help a loved one who also wants to overcome their *********** habit. And if you want to know more about Marie, you can find out information on her website. She has some resources there and information about how to work with her, and the website is pornographyfreedom.com. All right, I look forward to hearing about how you like this episode. [02:12] Sara: Hey, Marie, welcome to the podcast. [02:15] Marie: Thank you, Sarah. Glad to be here. [02:17] Sara: I'm so glad you're here. This has been a long time in the making. Yeah, we've been talking about this for a while. [02:23] Marie: Yes, it tell. [02:25] Sara: Will you introduce yourself to my audience? [02:28] Marie: Okay, so my name is Marie Poulter, and I am a certified life coach, but I now focus on helping people who want to stop looking at *********** stop looking at ***********. And I think that's really a big key just to start out with. It's people who want to stop. I get a lot of people who are like, will you tell my husband how bad this is? Will you tell my kids how bad this is? That's not really where we're going with our coaching business. We're not trying to do that. There are some really good organizations who are making that stuff happen, but our focus is on those who want to stop, who really have a moral compass for whatever reason. It's just morally, it's not what they want to be doing. Often they're like a high functioning, successful person who has goals and dreams and can really do good at a lot of areas in their life. And for whatever reason, they just can't quite become free from ***********. So that's who we really focus on. And I make it sound like it's men, but we do have women that we work with, and it is definitely both genders, and both genders struggle with this. Men typically are introduced to it at a younger age, and research shows that they are often introduced as early as, like, nine years old. And so my heart goes out to all the little nine year olds right now in 2023, who are devastated that there is a part of them that just hates this when they see it. And then it kind of makes me emotional. Sorry. They're devastated about it, and then they kind of like it, and they don't understand why. And so they start to develop this identity that maybe something is wrong with them. And then we're going to fast forward 20 years, and they've created a life they love. They still have this one little dirty secret, I guess, that they kind of call it, and that's the people we really, really want to help because there's so much misinformation. We were just raised in a totally crazy place about the facts around *********** view. And so I'm so excited to help people with that. [04:38] Sara: I have so many questions already. I'm writing them down because I don't want to interrupt you because you're giving so many nuggets away. But what inspired you to want to work with people who want to stop looking at ***********? [04:50] Marie: So I guess if I back up a little bit and explain where I even found life coaching from. I'm an educator. I have a teaching certification or teaching degree, and I always knew that I love teaching, but I always felt like there was going to be something more. And I would tell my husband, someday I'm going to go back and become a therapist, a counselor. I want to help people more than just teaching them. And so I continued on in my life, raised five kids, or was in the middle of raising five kids, but I noticed that a lot of things happening in my life were just kind of out of my control. I felt a lot of times like, this is just happening to me, and I don't know what to do about it. One such instance was my little son that was six, and he was really struggling with anxiety, and I was so frustrated with him. He was, of all things, anxious that I wasn't going to pick him up from school on time. I'm the mom that gets in line second or third every day. I kind of like getting there, and I'll read for a few minutes, just have some downtime, and so I would get in line and be there. There was one day of all the days of all of my kids that I can't remember, I was a few minutes late, and he had grabbed on to this little anxiety from this one day, and it was all he could see. So I came across something on Instagram that was like, you want to help your kids with anxiety, and it was free. And something happens when something's free, we tend to not do it right away. Right? [06:09] Sara: It's free. [06:10] Marie: Threw it in my inbox for a few months, and then when it kept continuing. I ended up opening it up, and I did what the suggestion was, and it was from a life coach. And Sarah, I'm not kidding. Within one day, the anxiety was just gone. And we haven't ever dealt with it again. This little guy, his name is Chase, and he's now 15, and he is so cute. With anxiety or negative feelings in general. As soon as he sees them coming, he's been trained to say, oh, there it is. And he goes through the process that we process and release emotion, and it's so cool to watch him. So when I saw that, when I saw that in him, it just turned something on in my brain, and I was like, wait a minute. Are you telling me that we have power to change our lives the way that we think, the way that the six year old thinks, that he can actually change something so drastically and affect his result? It just blew my mind. And so I started following coaching and then eventually got coached and then became a coach. And one of the biggest things that I was so excited about was this issue that I had seen in so many family members and loved ones around me. It was kind of quiet. If you look back 30 years ago, 20 years ago, even ten years ago, people with *********** issues, when we would hear about them, we would just be, like, shocked and devastated and so scared. I remember so vividly talking to a church leader about a loved one, and I was so scared for this loved one. And the church leader, in all of his, well, meaningful guidance and love, just said, you know, it's a tough one. They never overcome this. It's pretty hopeless. And I remember my stomach just sank. But there has to be something else. You can't just tell me that they're just sunk. And so when I learned about coaching, it started clicking. What if all these people aren't sunk? What if there actually is an answer for them? And maybe some of the information that we've got is wrong and maybe we can retrain our brains and we can think in a different way that creates success with this. So I had four little boys at the time and one little girl when I started coaching. And I started focusing so much on how do I help them at this tender age when I know they're going to see ***********. 91% of kids by the time they're 16 have used ***********. So we're silly as parents to think not our kids, right? [08:33] Sara: Gone are the days when we can protect them from it. [08:36] Marie: You can have every filter, you can have all the restrictions, you can have a Gab phone, which there's some great things with that, but they are going to see ***********. Research shows that it's factual. So when I started realizing that I could give my kids tools and that I could help them avoid this 2030 years down the road. Then it really started me getting excited. And then as things happen, I started coaching people individually. And I'd be coaching these men and women and they would so shamefully tell me what I've really been struggling with is ***********. I said I was coming to you for marriage coaching or just general coaching in general. And really it would come down to *********** a lot of times. And so as I coached them, it was so humbling to see that so many of the things that they thought were not even real and we could change their thinking and retrain their brain to do something completely different than they'd ever done before. So it's a multileveled process with *********** because there's a lot of emotions that they've been escaping emotion for years. But then one of the things that's really, really big is the lack of understanding of human sexuality. And this is where it got really exciting for me, because I was working with people for a couple of years with ***********, just one on one, and we were seeing great success. And then it hit me. They kept asking me questions that I really wasn't equipped with. I'm over sexualized. I just have a really high sex drive, and I have some pretty perverse ways of thinking about things. And I realized that I was a little bit out of my league. And so my husband is a physician and he's a pain management doctor and anesthesiologist. And I would ask him after I'd worked with a client, I would say, hey, tell me about this. Like with human sexuality, how does this work? How does the body work? Like that? And so he would start giving me information, and I'm like, Wait a minute. They're not hypersexualized. They're not perverted. They were created as humans. We're all created to be sexual beings. And so I brought my husband on board, and he is such a foundational part of the education for my clients because for the first time, they have so much relief. They're like, oh, I'm not disgusting. [10:55] Sara: There's nothing wrong with me. [10:56] Marie: Yeah, there's nothing wrong with me. And even teenage girls and young elementary age kids, they're not getting the information. Like, you were created to be a sexual being. And we're kind of getting that in 2023. We're getting to that place a little bit where we can recognize that that's who we are, that we're created sexually. But I feel like finally, for the first time in my life, I'm taking back sexuality from the yucky, dirty *********** industry and putting it where it belongs, that humans are created as sexual beings and there is healthy sexuality there. [11:37] Sara: Good. [11:38] Marie: So the difference, I think, is that *********** is degrading. Sexuality is not degrading. We have so many people who go into shame with *********** that's the number one thing is shame. [11:48] Sara: I was going to say is that the number one challenge that your clients face is the shame. [11:52] Marie: The number one challenge is just the shame. They are so embarrassed. And a lot of them like, if my wife knew, if my mom we hear this a lot. If my mom knew, bless their hearts. I want to say, though, too, Sarah, that most of the people who want to stop looking at *********** are incredible husbands, incredible workers, incredible students. Whatever phase of life they're in, they're incredible. They're honestly some of the strongest men that I've ever known. And so to be able to work with them and help them see this from a totally different standpoint has been so gratifying. [12:28] Sara: So how do you see this, particularly the shame around ***********? How do you see this affecting the relationships that matter most to your clients? [12:39] Marie: Wow. So research shows there was this big research study a few years ago that showed that men this was just for men. They would rather admit to having an affair if they were married, cheating on either their girlfriend or their wife right. Than they would admit to *********** viewing. [12:57] Sara: Why do you think that is? [12:59] Marie: That's mind blowing to me, right? There's so much pain we have created in our society an awful you are awful. You are disgusting. You are dirty. And don't get me wrong when I say this. I am not talking at all about abuse of any kind. We don't work with if they have a fascination with children or using someone in any way, we get them to the right sources. That's definitely not what we're doing. We are working with healthy brains who want to stop looking, but all of them will come to us and say, I'm addicted, and this is so shameful. [13:36] Sara: Okay, so that label addicted. Tell us more about that because that seems like it could be very detrimental. [13:43] Marie: It's so detrimental because addicted, that is like back to that church leader, right? Like, you have got a label on you. You may as well just put it on your forehead. It's never coming off. [13:54] Sara: And it takes away agency. Like it takes away their right to choose. [13:57] Marie: You have no power. I have multiple stories from clients saying, well, I went to a counselor, I went to a church leader, I went to a parent. And they said, studies have shown that this is harder to quit than heroin. I don't know where those studies were. They're not true. [14:14] Sara: Yeah. [14:15] Marie: Not even real. But how damaging when you hear people say, that is the plague, you have the plague. Right. That's so hard. So there is just so much shame around it. So much shame, so much fear. And then you will have different I don't know what who do I want to say that you hear different leaders of different whether they're thought groups or religious groups or whatever, saying that it's going to lead you to you're going to murder somebody or abuse somebody or you're going to ruin your whole life. That's really scary way to live. [14:53] Sara: And then we wonder why they're ashamed and don't want to tell anybody and they can't tell. [14:57] Marie: Yeah, there's a story of a why. [14:59] Sara: They'D rather admit that they're having an affair than even if they weren't, they'd. [15:02] Marie: Rather just be like, oh, it's an affair, rather than just an affair with my computer. And I get that it's a very sensitive issue. And it's really hard for a spouse or a girlfriend because there is that physical component where they feel like they're being cheated on. And so there's some education for the spouse or whoever's in the relationship with this person because they really have to if they want to be a part of this habit change, then they have some work to do on their own brains. [15:29] Sara: Can we talk about that for a second? Because I'm thinking of my listeners and of course I know that there's some that are like, I need Marie's help, and so we're going to talk about how they can get more help from you. But I'm also thinking of the spouse or the mother or the parent who's thinking like, so and so in my life that I care so much about, really needs this. They need to see that this is a problem. [15:55] Marie: Yeah. And to that, again, it has to be from the person. And we all know if you're eating chocolate cake every day and somebody else tells you you need to stop eating chocolate cake, you're not going to stop eating chocolate cake until you decide that you want to stop eating chocolate cake. But I think that sometimes we'll say the spouse right. We'll say that it's a female espouse. And your husband needs to see you're thinking. He needs to see how tough this is. If you can approach him with, I'm not going anywhere. I'm here for you. I'm going to learn as much about what's going on for you as you are. I'm willing to go all in and I'm not leaving. So often they're like, if I don't get this figured out, she said she's leaving. The shame, fear, and then my whole life is ruined. [16:43] Sara: Some tough, tough things like an ultimatum. [16:46] Marie: Too yes. [16:48] Sara: Which we want to give space for the partner who feels betrayed. [16:52] Marie: Too absolutely. There's big betrayal that happens there. But there are also things that we can do with our brain retraining us right. To look at what is a fact here. Am I really being betrayed? And then set your boundaries. Of course. Set your boundaries and figure things out together. But this is probably a little bit silly that I use this example, but I ask spouses sometimes. So let's say that you have this online shopping habit you got going on, and sometimes the husband will be like, hey, we have to stop doing this. We don't have the money for this isn't healthy. Very seldom do you hear a husband it's like, I'm leaving you if you don't quit shopping at night. [17:33] Sara: Right. [17:34] Marie: But this is tricky because they're like, no, but this is another woman. So we invite spouses, learn as much as you can. And there are coaches who coach with that. In fact, that will be part of our program, where we will have a coach that specifically works with betrayal and. [17:49] Sara: That there is a way. I just want to make sure that that spouse knows that there is a place and a space where you can be in where you actually don't make their *********** use mean anything about you. [18:02] Marie: Absolutely. It isn't about you. And that's one of the things to recognize, too. I would say that 99.9% of the clients that we work with discovered *********** and started struggling with it years and years before they met. You were going to be with yeah. And so then we put it back on the moms, and then the mom's feel terrible. Right. [18:23] Sara: I was going to say, what about the mom who's hearing this? What would you say to her? [18:27] Marie: Yeah, so the mom, if you're my age and you have four, three adult sons, right, and one that's 15, then the work is for you too. To figure out, how do I train my brain to have a relationship with this son that maybe is struggling with this? And rather than beat yourself up and be miserable about it, to train yourself to see things the way they really are, to see the facts, to see this. This didn't have anything to do with you either. [18:55] Sara: This is just one so good. I think that it is work so worth doing as a mother to separate yourself from your children's choices. For all the moms out there, that is work worth doing. And I think about the mom who maybe has little kids that are like five, six, seven years old, who's just like, how can I just get this to never be a problem in my kids lives? Yes, that might be the wrong question to ask. Tell me what you think about that. [19:27] Marie: And I guess I'd say yes, it's the wrong question, but also the right question in some ways. And actually, you should probably get there's. Another coach, actually, my sister, and she is actually coaching moms on what to do, moms and dads, parents, how to create resistant, *********** resistant children. And if I could have had that as a child, that would have been amazing in so many aspects, not just ***********. Right. We've been raised by parents who are like, don't feel your feelings, don't think about things too much. And now we're shifting to where we're learning more about that. And so there are ways that parents today can say, oh, if I can teach my kids how not to escape emotion, how to understand what's going on in their brain, and to process emotion and release emotion, that's a big step in the right direction towards becoming resistant to *********** in the future. Because I don't know that I explained this earlier, but it's really important to recognize that *********** viewing is not about sex. It's always about an escape. Escape from your feelings, escape from whatever. Yes. Whether that was boredom. Some people, even when they get really. [20:43] Sara: Excited, it can be a quote unquote positive emotion, right? [20:47] Marie: Yes, from emotion. [20:48] Sara: We do it with food too. [20:50] Marie: Totally. We do it with food. And I invite the people in relationships with my clients who are viewing **** to just have some mercy and some grace towards the person who is struggling and wants to stop. How would you feel if we saw everything that you did, every piece of cake you ate, everything that you shopped when you didn't need it, every way that you escaped from emotion, if you were in the spotlight for it and everybody's watching, like, you're going to be in big trouble if you don't stop this. So what that does usually is help the client get in a safe space. If they can get in a safe space in their own head and in their own future, knowing that I'm safe here, I can change. Then we can totally work together to create new habits and to let go of the old habits. So right now, I think it's an important thing to point out we have multiple, multiple people just in my little realm of influence that have not had the desire for ****. So it's not just, we're going to help you how to stay away from ****. They lose the desire to look at ***********. [21:56] Sara: So this isn't about you teaching them to resist it forever? [22:00] Marie: No. In fact, I love this well, I hate this story, but I love this little story. I met a man just randomly one afternoon and he was asking me we had some downtime, I was purchasing something from the place he worked. And so we had some downtime, just sitting there, small talk. And I ended up telling him that I work with people who struggle with quitting ***********. And he just slammed his hand down onto the desk and said, where were you three years ago? And I kind of laughed and he said, no, 200 pounds ago, where were you? And he said, I went to get help for years with ***********. My wife had said, I'm leaving if you don't get help. He had struggled with *********** for over 30 years and he said, I haven't looked at it in several years, but I have gained over 200 pounds. [22:43] Sara: Wow. [22:45] Marie: And so yay for him for stopping ***********. But there's a better way. There's a way that we aren't just replacing what those emotions, right? The emotions that we feel, the negative emotions, we're not just going to a different outlet. And so it's exciting. There's so much excitement, really, when you look at it, that you can retrain your brain, you can think a different way. And along the way, you can create a healthy sexual life, the one that you want to have. There's no shame in that. And so some marriages right now that I'm seeing, they're flourishing with some of my clients more than they ever had before. Because they've got right information. [23:24] Sara: Yes. They release the shame. They learned how to process their feelings instead of looking at **** or replacing it with something else. And then it just frees up so much space in your brain to connect with the people that you love. [23:36] Marie: Yes, it really does. Another thing that is really exciting that when you let go of **** and viewing that and that burden, you actually can start creating the life that you want. So we see a lot of people taking up weightlifting or biking or hiking, and it's not because they're replacing it. They're like, I have a new life. I have a new lease on life. There is so much brain space taken up with shame where these poor individuals have spent so much time in just this. I'm living a double life. I'm living a double life. [24:08] Sara: Yeah. [24:09] Marie: That is not addiction. Addiction is you are all day, every day. You cannot have a job, you cannot have relationships, you can't do anything. That's addiction. These are habits that we're dealing with. [24:21] Sara: No, I love that I once heard that distinction. If you can go without whatever it is you are telling yourself you're addicted to, if you can not view **** while you're at work, then you're not addicted. Or if you can think of people say that they're addicted to food. [24:36] Marie: Right. [24:36] Sara: Well, can you go like 4 hours without eating? Then you're not addicted. [24:40] Marie: Yeah. [24:42] Sara: So good. So do you have any more advice for someone who wants to stop looking at ****? Where would you have them start? Aside from, of course, hiring you, which you'll tell us how they can get in contact with you. But what's one first step that they can take? [25:01] Marie: 1St 20 steps. I'm kidding. Okay, so first I would say is to start just noticing when you view ****, what happened just before. [25:09] Sara: Okay. [25:10] Marie: And you will start to notice you're escaping some emotion. There is something negative that happened that is causing you to view ****. Just that one little step really opens up your brain to be like, oh, this is a possibility that I'm just escaping. [25:25] Sara: And it might be something like some kind of shame attack. But it also might just be like, I'm bored. Right? [25:30] Marie: Totally. Yeah. It can be I'm bored, I'm frustrated. Something happened at work, something happened at home. Or just also like, it's this month. There's nothing much going on this month. Or I just got done. We find a lot of times that somebody gets home from vacation, you think that they're just on top of the world. Right. It was just an amazing experience. But then just that what I had to look forward to. Yeah. So just notice what happened before. I call it backwards. Dot to dot. We all remember when we were little kids, right? And we just dot to dot. If you dot to dot backwards, you will find that there's some emotion tied to this, and that's exciting. If there's emotion tied to it, we can work with emotion. You can work to do something different. Right. But if you're an addict, you really can't. But when you have a habit, you can change that. [26:16] Sara: Oh, so good. So just with curiosity, pay attention to what was going on right before they started looking at ****. That's the first step. [26:26] Marie: Okay. [26:26] Sara: And how can they get a hold of you? They want to learn more. [26:29] Marie: So I have just been coaching. We've just been doing one on one coaching, and we decided that I've only have so much time in my life and I can say the same thing over and over again to create that foundation right. The facts that they need about healthy sexuality and what's going on in their brain. So we just created a course that will give access to more people, and I don't have to keep saying the same thing over and over again. So you can find information about that. It's pornographyfreedom.com. And the course is called Freedom from ***********. And I'm really confident that that is what the future holds for upcoming generations to come. We all have cell phones now, right? It's everywhere around us. And we can either wring our hands and be like, oh, we are just in trouble. It's just everywhere. I think the more education that we get, the more understanding that we get of our emotions and our brains and healthy sexuality. In a couple of generations from now, they're going to be like, oh, remember that *********** thing? We got this. [27:29] Sara: I love that. I love that. [27:31] Marie: It's really hopeful. [27:33] Sara: Yes. So hopeful and so just inspiring that this is not something that has to be a problem for you forever or for your loved ones forever. There really are solutions, and it's so much easier than what they're doing now, which is living in shame. What's the word? It's like helplessness, right? And hopelessness. [27:58] Marie: Just hopeless and helpless and dark and just scared. There's just a lot of fear out there. [28:02] Sara: Yeah. So pornographyfreedom.com is where they can yes. [28:06] Marie: And I have to say that I just overcame a lot of fear, and I'm starting an Instagram page. For some reason, this is just so something I never wanted to do. So Mariepolter coaching. [28:18] Sara: They can follow you there as well. Hey, go check Marie out. Thank you for being here, for educating my listeners so much on thank you. [28:28] Marie: So much for letting be. [28:31] Sara: Yes. I can tell it's like oozing from you. And it doesn't have to be something that is a burden for the rest of their life.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why Marie-José developed the Marzee Graduate Prize to help young jewelry artists How she secured the historic building her gallery and apartment are located in Who Marie-José's favorite artists are, such as Dorothea Prühl Why the term “art jewelry” is redundant How the pandemic inspired Marie-José to look closer to home for exhibition ideas About Marie-José van den Hout Born in Roermond in the Netherlands, Marie-José van den Hout grew up in a family of three generations of ecclesiastical gold- and silversmiths. It was in the workshop of her grandfather, a renowned craftsman who specialized in repoussé and chasing, that her passion for gold grew and flourished. Alongside two of her brothers, Marie-José worked in her father's studio before studying gold- and silversmithing and then fine art at the Academy of Fine Arts in Maastricht. She established Galerie Marzee in Nijmegen in 1979 and was honored with the title of Officer of the Order of Oranje-Nassau at the gallery's 40th anniversary celebrations in June 2019. Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Openingstijden / opening hoursdi-vr 10.00-18.00 uur, za 10.00-17.00 uur Tue-Fri 10am-6pm, Sat 10am-5pm Photos: Otto Künzli, Quidam XVIII, 2019, brooch; Corian, plastic, operculum, acrylic paint, steel, 75 x 87 mm  Rudolf Kocéa, Tears, 2019, necklace; fine silver, enamel, stainless steel, pendant: 80 x 110 x 20 mm, L 600 mm  Barbara Paganin, Rose, 2017, necklace; polymethylmethacrylate, oxidised silver, gold, 200 x 200 x 20 mm    Vera Siemund, untitled, 2019, necklace; enamelled copper, copper, steel, silver, 100 x 60 x 40 mm  Dorothea Prühl, necklace, Raben im Kreis (Ravens in a circle) 2020, titanium and gold    Transcript: Located in a former grain warehouse on the banks of the River Waal in the Netherlands, Galerie Marzee is the largest (and some would say the most influential) art jewelry gallery in the world. The gallery was founded in 1979 by Marie-José van den Hout, who has spent her lifetime immersed in jewelry, goldsmithing, and art. She joined the podcast to talk about the exhibitions she's working on now, why she dedicates so much time to helping art and jewelry students, and how an exhibition of combs put Galerie Marzee on the map. Read the episode transcript below.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Marie-José van den Hout, founder and owner of Galerie Marzee, the world's largest art jewelry gallery. The gallery is located in the Netherlands. Marie is a highly regarded leader in the field of art jewelry and has an interesting story, which we'll hear about today. Marie-José, welcome to the podcast. Marie: Thank you. Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. You studied metalsmithing. When did you start liking art jewelry or jewelry? Marie: I started at eight, I think. Well, my journey started when I was four or five years old. My great-grandfather, although I never knew him, and my grandfather and my father were gold and silversmiths, but they didn't make jewelry; they made objects for Roman Catholic churches. I grew up with all these objects, which now are exported from Europe to America because there are too many and museums can't have them anymore. Anyway, when I was four years old, my father made a ring for me, and I was very proud of that ring. I was not interested in jewelry. He sometimes made rings for friends or for my mother, but he made a ring for me when I was a child and I took it. I was allowed, against his wishes to be honest, to take it to kindergarten. In the class, I very proudly showed this ring. At the time, those classes were huge, 40, 50 children, so it went around the class and it never came back to me, the ring. I was very shy; I didn't dare say anything to the teacher, so I went home without a ring. Many years later, I had an exhibition with Manuel Vilhena. He's a Portuguese jeweler. He had his exhibition and he made a ring from a string, just a simple string, and he said, “This is your ring. I know why you started the jewelry gallery; because you're still looking for your ring.” I found this such a beautiful story.  So, my journey started when I was four, but to be honest, it didn't really, because I was not interested in jewelry at all, not a bit. I always used to like drawing and painting. In those times, you learned to do those crafts at home, and the best teachers are your parents. At the academy where I went in Maastricht, they once asked my father—they wanted him to be a teacher at the academy, and he said, “No, no, no, no, I'm not interested.” But then we, my two brothers and me, went to the academy. We had to, because you were not allowed to work as a gold and silversmith and make pieces when you didn't have the—what do you call this? The mark you have.  Sharon: The hallmark? Marie: Yes, you had to go to the academy to get this hallmark. We did go there every day, the three of us by car. It was two hours' drive from our home, but in the end, it turned out I was not that interested, so I changed direction and went to painting and sculpture. Sharon, there is something I'm not that proud of. I met a man—I was 20, 21—my first boyfriend, who I thought was such a fantastic artist and painter that I stopped doing that altogether and I returned to gold and silversmithing. In the end, we worked at home designing, doing all the crafts.  As a child, I loved to go to my grandfather. He was very well-known for making those figures in gold and silver, and he was invited all over the world, all over Europe to restore church treasures. Although we are Dutch, my father was born in Cologne, because my grandfather at the time worked in Cologne restoring the treasury of the Dome of Cologne. My aunt was born in Brussels in Belgium, where my grandfather worked for the Dome of Brussels, and so on. He worked in Paris. At the same time, what he did—I loved my grandfather—after his work, he was always sitting in museums. You know those people who are sitting there and copying famous paintings? I once went to Paris to a museum, and I saw a painting and thought, “No, this can't be. My grandfather did this.” It turned out it was a famous painting by Monet. So, my life, my youth, was all in art, in gold, painting and silversmithing. But in the end, I didn't do all those things because I married, and within a year I had three children because I have twins. Sharon: Not much time between. Marie: Not that much. Sharon: With everything else, yeah. Marie: In the meantime, my father had died, and my two brothers didn't make those church things anymore. There was not much interest in those at the time, so they turned to jewelry. Both made jewelry, but my younger brother—I liked him very much; we had a very good relationship—he asked me, “I think you could be a very good shopkeeper and I would like to start a shop in Roermond.” He lived in  Roermond, which is 100 kilometers south of Nijmegen, and he had several shops already in Holland. I said, “O.K., I'll do this. It's possible do this while having children.” So, I did this for some time. It was modern jewelry, but not the kind I was interested in.  At the time, I visited another gallery, and I have to confess I was much more interested in the sort of art jewelry there. So I changed my policy; I went everywhere to look at this sort of jewelry. In the end, my brother was not so happy with my change of thought, and he said, “I don't want you to have my jewelry anymore,” which, Sharon, was a shame, because it was good jewelry. It sold very well. It was mostly gold and diamonds, but in a modern way. So, suddenly I could hardly survive, because the sort of jewelry we are dealing with now is very hard to sell. Sharon: I'm sorry—did you say very hard to sell? Marie: Very hard to sell, yes. It's really difficult. Anyway, I worked very hard, 12 hours a day. I was always working. My children were complaining. They said to me—I have three children—and they said, “Mom, you hear me, but you're not listening.” Now, they're proud of me, and two of them, when I stop, will carry on with the gallery. This is more or less the beginning of this journey. In the very beginning, the work I showed looked like what Galerie Ra showed. In the end it was completely different, because I traveled through Europe, traveled to academies, traveled to artists and so on, and I had my complete own style. It's what I'm doing now. Sharon: So just in case people don't about Galerie Ra, can you tell us a little bit about that? Marie: Galerie Ra in Amsterdam was a small gallery funded by Paul Derrez and Louis Martin, two of them. Later on Paul carried on on his own, and last year, after I think 40 years, he stopped with his gallery. He had to rent a shop in Amsterdam, and once every five years you have to have a new contract, and he thought, “This is too long for me. In the meantime, I can't stop because I still have to pay the rent.” So, he stopped, and last week on Koningsdag, King's Day, he got a medal from the king. He is an officer in the Order of Orange-Nassau; that is how our kingdom is called. I had this honor two years ago with the 40th anniversary of the gallery. In 2019, I also got this order. You can compare it with OBE in Britain. Sharon: Wow!  Marie: It is sort of like that. It's a huge medal. If people would have asked me, “Would you be interested in having anything like this?” I would say, “What nonsense. No, please, no,” but at the anniversary in 2019— Sharon: The 48th anniversary. Marie: I was so surprised and I was so proud. Sharon: That's quite an honor, wow! Marie: It was really nice. They said, “We were so frightened you would say”—I told you I can be quite undiplomatic—“Oh, what a horrible medal,” because it's not a very nice design. It's old, of course, but I didn't say it. I was very honored. All of this was based on the fact that I do so much for young artists. Sharon: You do. Marie: With the annual graduate show. Sharon: Tell us about the annual graduate show. It's so well-known.  Marie: I started this 30 years ago. I'm now in this beautiful building. It's a huge building overlooking the River Waal, and it has four stories. At the time, I was in a smaller building, not that small really, but I wanted to do something completely different. I said, “I'd like to work with young people and see if I can guide them or travel with them in their development.” I started making exhibitions that were quite small. I had an academy in Amsterdam. I had Maastricht and Utrecht, and I think Holzheim in Germany. It was quite small, but it in end, it developed. Now, it's 740, 750 schools from all over the world. Mostly there are between 17 and 19 participants, and all the floors of the gallery are full of young graduate work.  What can I say about this? In the beginning, there was just the show and the opening. Later on, 10 years ago, I started having a symposium on Monday. The participants came to Holland from everywhere, from America, from Australia, from Japan. So then on Monday, all the participants showed their work to their colleagues. There was this huge show, and, for instance, the first artist took one of her or his pieces out of the show, put it on the next graduate—so he or she was the model—and then they started talking about the work. It went on and on, sort of like—what do you call it?—it went from one to the other. Of course, they were not used to talking in public, so it was quite emotional. People were very nervous, but it was heartbreakingly beautiful. Also the fact that they came from all over the world, it was really something. People traveling from America, it's not that expensive to travel to Holland, but from Australia, it's a really expensive trip. From Japan it's really expensive, so it's very good they came.  Then 10 years ago, I started to award the Marzee Prize, the Marzee Graduate Prizes. They were awarded to six to eight people, but sometimes there was so much beautiful work that I had 10 people. The prize consisted of a workshop in Ravary, an estate in Belgium. Some friends of mine built a large workshop there. It's paradise, where they can work for a whole week. Everyone has a bedroom and we cook together; we talk together. It's working deep into the night; also drinking deep into the night. Unfortunately, last year we didn't have this workshop. We are not allowed to travel. This year there will probably not be a workshop, either, so that's a pity. The borders are still closed. We are not allowed to travel to Germany, which from here is only five kilometers. Belgium is a bit further, but we are not allowed.  A few years ago, also to try to help young people, I started Intro in Amsterdam. My son, who you just saw, has studied in Amsterdam. He's a lawyer. I rented a place for him 30 years ago. I still have that place, but it was redone two years ago and made into a gallery workshop. In 2019, I was awarded another prize, Gallerist of the Year 2019 by RISD, Rhode Island School of Design.   Sharon: Wow!  Marie: Yeah, maybe you didn't know that.  Sharon: Now it's coming back. Yes, I do remember that. Marie: It was a real surprise. It was very nice. I had to travel to RISD because they set up a show for me in the museum. Then Tracy, the head of the department, said, “I would like you to participate and organize everything in Amsterdam at Intro. I would like for you to run this gallery for three years.” I was the Gallerist of the Year for three years, and we started to do this. The board liked it very much, so for a year we have had two internships there. You can live there; you can work there. It's a beautiful workshop and a beautiful gallery. They make exhibitions with the graduates, but last year there was nothing because they had to return to America. They were not allowed to come here, but probably in August or September there will be two people from RISD again. Not everyone was allowed to participate in Amsterdam at Intro. We selected 20 people per year who could show their work and have exhibitions in Amsterdam. I hoped it would help, but we still have to see because it was interrupted by this horrible Covid disaster. That's my graduate show. There is much more to it.  Sharon: Administering something like that is such a big task. Coming from a traditional background of jewelry and fine art, what attracted you to art jewelry? How did you transition? Marie: The jewelry my brother made was not so far from what you call art jewelry. I'm not such a fan of the term art jewelry, although I don't know what else we should call it. I don't know. Jewelry was not only the thing I did. When the gallery existed for 10 years, I made an exhibition of combs. Sharon: Clothes? Marie: Combs, to comb your hair. Sharon: Combs, O.K. Marie: I did this because I thought a comb is a piece you can use, and I had objects in the gallery you could use. I also sometimes had exhibitions with fine arts, and I had jewelry. I had all three in the small gallery at the time, so I thought a comb has all those elements in it. It's graphic, you can use it as a utensil, and you can wear it as a piece of jewelry. I asked 400 artists in the whole world to make a comb, and I selected 80 pieces for a traveling show. This was really the start of the gallery, because I had a fantastic graphic designer who made a book for it. I had an interior designer who made huge showcases for it. I traveled to museums to ask if they would be interested to have the exhibition after it had been in my gallery. I had the luck that I went to Rotterdam to a famous museum, Boijmans van Beuningen, and they said they would gladly have the exhibition, but they wanted it as a premiere. That was not what I wanted, because I wanted it for my 10thanniversary, and then they said, “No, we want it first.” It was a very good decision to do this, because after that, all the newspapers were full, all the magazines were full, and all the museums wanted to have this exhibition. I have had this exhibition in Tokyo, in Cologne, in Frankfurt, in Pforzheim. My name was there, and then I decided to buy 40 of those pieces. They are now in my collection. My collection is more than 2,000 pieces, I think, and they mirror the history of the gallery. That exhibition was the real start of the gallery. That's when it started to become international. Sharon: For anybody who hasn't been to the current gallery, the building is incredible. It's worth going just to see the building itself. How long have you been in that building? Marie: This is a building channeled with history. There is a history to this building. The town of Nijmegen owns the building, and it used to be a grain warehouse in the beginning of the 20th century. It's around 1900 or even older. They wanted to tear it down to have a hotel here, a Holiday Inn, if you can imagine, but there were some parties in town who wanted culture in this building. I had to fight Holiday Inn. I remember very well, Sharon, that Holiday Inn's director called me and said, “Ms. Van der Hout, why don't you let us buy the building and you can have the ground floor?” Sharon, you know those hotels that have a gallery on the ground, those galleries are mostly horrible. In the end, I won the fight. In 1992, the building was mine; I bought it, but it was ruined. I showed the architect the building, and we had to climb on ladders because the town had decided to tear it down and everything was taken out. The wooden floors were taken out. The only thing left were the beams and those beautiful walls, of course, but that was all. I climbed on that ladder and I fell down and broke my back. Sharon: Oh my gosh! Marie: I lost part of my memory, which is sometimes annoying. On the whole, it's O.K., but I broke my back. I could have been in a wheelchair. When I fell down, I woke up after a half hour or an hour and walked to my art gallery. That seemed a bit strange, so they called a doctor and ambulance and I was taken to the hospital. They said, “You're O.K. You can go because you walked,” and I said, “No, I can't get up anymore.” Then I had this scan and they saw that my back was broken in three places. Sharon: Oh my gosh, you got up and walked! Marie: I was in a cast for a long time. I thought, “Maybe this is too big a task for me. Maybe this was a warning.” Then I thought, “Oh no, I'm going to build an elevator so everyone who is in a wheelchair can see all the floors.” Every day I'm glad I made that decision. Sharon: The building is so fabulous. Did you have a vision for what you wanted? I'm sure you worked closely with the architect, but what was in your mind? Marie: I had a bit in my mind, but my ideas at the time were that it should be wide and so on. I had a fantastic architect, a really fantastic architect, and he didn't want it to be wide; he wanted the walls as they were. We have concrete floors because it was the only possibility. Thanks to this architect—he was a very well-known Dutch architect, by the way, because the town said, “We want this to be a fantastic architectural place. You can invite three architects and we'll pay for that, but the architect you take, you will have to pay him yourself.” They never paid those other architects, by the way, but never mind. I'm so very glad with this architect, and sometimes I see him. Two years ago, he was married for I don't know how many years, and he said, “Marie, I want to go visit the buildings in Holland I'm most proud of”—there are several museums he built—“and you have one of those buildings. If it's O.K. with you, I'd like to have a party here.” He said, “You used it so well. It's so well done now.” I travel a lot—not at the moment, of course—but every time I come home to my building, I feel relieved.  Sharon: It's home.  Marie: It's not only home, it's my first building I remember very well. Once I went on a holiday, and I came back home and I stood in front of my first gallery. I was still in my car in front of the first gallery, and I said to someone, “I don't want to get out. I don't want to do it anymore.” Here, every time I come back, it's rest and peace; it's fantastic. I don't know. Sharon: It is an amazing building  Marie: And inside it's fantastic, of course.  Sharon: You're in a fabulous location. I want to let people know when they go to the gallery, they may need a lot of time because you have a lot of—it's not one small gallery. Marie: No, it's not. I started collecting from the very beginning. I always bought something from my exhibitions, because if people didn't do it, I had to do it. I have a huge collection, but the pieces I have from the beginning are maybe not that interesting. Since then, I have the best pieces. It's fantastic. I have a huge collection of Dorothea Prühl, the necklace I'm wearing now— Sharon: Say the name again. Marie: Dorothea Prühl. Sharon: Dorothea Prühl. It's a fabulous necklace made of wood. Marie: Yeah, there was an exhibition two years ago in New York. Do you know Nancy and Georgio? Sharon: No. Marie: They have the Magazzino, the museum for Italian Art near New York. It's a fantastic, beautiful museum. Anyway, they had an exhibition about arte povera in New York, and there was a famous artist—I can't remember the name; that's my memory—who gave a talk there. The sculptor was there, a famous artist from Italy, and he came to me and said, “You have a fantastic necklace.” It was this necklace. I told Dorothea, of course, because that's a famous sculptor and all her work is like this. There's something else which may be interesting; you know I'm working with schools. Sharon: No, tell us about that. It doesn't surprise me, but tell me about that. Marie: Apart from the private shows. Dorothea Prühl, for instance, she is from Eastern Germany. Sharon: I just want to interrupt, because some people listening have never heard of Dorothea Prühl, who is one of the leading and most well-established art jewelers. Continue, I'm sorry. Marie: She was teaching in Halle in former Eastern Germany. I got to know her work because I went to an exhibition in Halle with her and her class and another teacher. I saw the work and thought, “I would like to have this in the gallery.” The well-known German artist who was there with me said, “There's no way she will do this. She doesn't like Wessies.” Do you know Wessies? People from the west, Western Europe. But I thought, “You know what? I'm going to call her.” So, I called her, and then came this voice. She was a heavy smoker, Sharon, and I said, “I want to make an appointment with you. Is that O.K?” “Oh, yes.”  It was sort of love at first sight.  Sharon: We understand. Marie: Sometimes you have this immediate connection, so I went there. The work she did with her students was fantastic, and then and there I decided I was going to do school exhibitions. I said, “I want you to have an exhibition with your whole class in the gallery for five years. Every spring you will have an exhibition.” They did, and it was always a beautiful exhibition. I bought a lot of pieces for the collection from this exhibition. After those five years, I asked Iris Eichberg. At that time, she was teaching at an academy, and I asked if she would be interested in working with us. She said, “I can't do it. I'm not happy with the level of what's being done here.” Then I decided I would go to the Royal College in London first, with Otto Kunzli in Munich. Otto Kunzli had a show here for five years with his students, also in spring. Then I started to make it a bit shorter, three years with the Royal College with Hans Stauffer. He was the head of the department. At the moment, I'm working with Nuremburg. This is our fourth year. At the end of this month, they will set up an exhibition, also a class exhibition. Do you know that I publish magazines of all the exhibitions? Sharon: Yes. Marie: And we always buy pieces. I really like to work with students. I really like to do this. Sharon: What is it that you like about it? Marie: I don't know, the way that they're open to things. I like that they‘re still developing. By the way, the only school where there were more boys in class was in Munich. In Holland, there was only one boy. In Munich, there were a lot of boys. Most schools just have girls, although in the end, the boys got famous.  Sharon: That's the way it is, yes. Marie: Yes, that's the way it is. Sharon: I was really interested to read that you don't like the term art jewelry. We call it art jewelry because, as you say, there's not another term, but why don't you like the term art jewelry? Marie: Because I think if you're talking about painting, you don't say art paintings or art culture or art design or arts this and that. It's a discipline like all other disciplines. You have paintings, and some are art and some are not. It's the quality that makes it art. It's sometimes not a quality we see now, but it may be that in a hundred years what we now define as art is not what they think of those pieces later on. I don't know. For me it's jewelry, although it's difficult because jewelry is not a well-respected art form. Sharon: Right. Marie: Not at all. Every day I still have to convince people that this is a full-blown art discipline. Sharon: Because you're on the front lines, what do you see as the future of this kind of jewelry? Call it avant garde jewelry, call it art jewelry. It's different than gold and diamonds, in a sense. Marie: It's different. The jewelry that sells best is still gold, unfortunately. Not unfortunately, because I love gold, but there is all gold. A few years ago, I was invited to make an exhibition with Vicenza in Italy. Vicenza is the gold town of Italy. It's where the gold industry is, where they make all those fashion jewelry pieces, and there is a museum. The director asked me, “Will you please make an exhibition for our art jewelry department?” They have design jewelry, fashion jewelry, and art jewelry. The one who made an exhibition before me was Helen Drutt, and she also made an exhibition in the art department. I thought, “Well, O.K., I'm going to make this exhibition, and I'm going to make it only with gold because I'll show them that there is different work you can make with gold.” She told me, “This is my best exhibition ever.” It was a beautiful golden arts jewelry exhibition in their museum. The last year of the exhibition, unfortunately, the last part, was during Covid. What can you do.  Sharon: You don't often see gold in a lot of the art jewelry galleries. Was it difficult to find pieces that you felt belonged in the exhibition? Marie: No. I showed pieces from my collection.  Sharon: Your personal collection? Marie: My personal collection. I have several beautiful golden pieces of Dorothea Prühl. I have several Dutch artists who work in gold. I have enough to show a lot of work. It was 50 pieces, I think. Sharon: O.K., wow!  Marie: I have some from the students from Holland, which reminds me there were two pieces, one big color piece from a student from Holland and one big brooch. Sharon: Do you see an increase in interest with a la carte jewelry and things made of alternative materials, like plastic or wood? Marie: I think this is returning in jewelry. You can make jewelry out of all sorts of materials, and for me, it doesn't really matter. The only thing I don't like so much in jewelry is plastic, because I don't like plastic very much, but for the rest it's fine. What I don't buy anymore is rubber jewelry because it disintegrates. I have rubber pieces in my collection, and they were made of horrible material. I didn't throw them out; I put them in envelopes and kept them, but no. It's difficult to get people interested in jewelry. One of the things I did to get people interested in it, I made a series of exhibitions in museums. It's called “Jewelry, the Choice of, and I followed with the name of the town. I did 10 of those exhibitions in Dutch museums, one in the European parliament in Brussels and another one, my best one, in St. Andrews in Scotland. That exhibition was magic.  What happens normally is that in Holland, the director of the museum selects 25 women and men who they want to come to the gallery. They come by bus for a whole day, and I select pieces from the collection. It's like a Tupperware party, but I want them to get interested in jewelry. Obviously, at St. Andrews that was not possible, that people would come by bus to Scotland. So, the director asked everyone to give her a photo, and she wrote something about the work people did so I could get to know who those people were. I found it very difficult to not see someone and not try something on. So what I did, I had these photos in the gallery for three weeks, and I spread them out on my top floor on this large table. Every day I walked past those photos, looked at the photos, and thought, “Who are you? Who are you?” Then the museum came to collect the pieces I selected for those 24 people. I have to admit I was quite nervous, because what if the people didn't like those pieces and said, “I don't want to wear this,” or “I will wear it, but I don't like it”? But I went there, and we had a meeting in one of the castles. Every quarter of an hour, someone came in and I was supposed to give them the piece of jewelry I selected for them, have them put it on and tell them something about this piece, about the artist. After that, they were interviewed for a movie; there was a movie made for this exhibition. I gave a big gold brooch to the first person who came in, a student from Holland, Christine Matthias, I went to her and said, “I'm giving you the sun,” and she had—how do you say it—goose bumps. Sharon: Goose bumps, yes. Marie: She said, “How do you know?” “How do I know what?” “Yesterday I saw the sun spinning.” O.K., that was number one. The next one was a man, and I gave him a silver brooch of a lizard, a beautifully made small brooch of a lizard, and his wife said, “Last year he wrote a poetry book about lizards.” I was flabbergasted, Sharon, and this went on and on. Not everyone had this reaction, but a lot did. The British people are good talkers, and I told everyone something about the piece of jewelry. Later on, as I said, there was a movie made, and they had to tell something about this piece. They were so well-spoken about it. They looked closely at those pieces. There was an understanding of what the artist had done. It was my best exhibition to promote jewelry with people. I am friends with the director; we eat together every year when there is a Collect in London—except this year, because there is no Collect. Those experiences make my life as a gallerist so beautiful, so exciting.  With this Covid disaster we had to stay home, so we had no visitors and the gallery was closed, and I thought, “You know what? I don't know many people in Nijmegen. I'm focused abroad; I'm focused on faraway places. Who do I know here on my street, for instance?” On the old street of Nijmegen—it's a beautiful street with fantastic houses—I hardly know anyone. I thought, “I'm going to make an exhibition with 25, 30 people, and I will keep it to my street.” So, now I'm making an exhibition called “In My Street.” A few hours ago, we had the first photographs with a photographer who lives on the street of people who have lived the longest on this street, a man and wife who have lived here for 60 years. We're doing that now, and we will probably make 35 photos and have an exhibition here. At this time last year, I invited the former director of the museum of the town who lived on this street. He's a very introverted man, and I went to him and said, “I'd like you to participate in this exhibition,” and he said, “No, no.” In the end, I convinced him he had to do it, and he said, “But only if the exhibition is in your place,” because he likes beauty. Last week I heard that he died. I want the photos to be taken of people in their own houses. He had this fantastic office in the front of his home, full of books and a huge desk, that was beautiful to photograph in, but he's not there anymore, so it's just— Sharon:Yeah, it's a shame.  Marie: Yeah, it's a shame, but I think it will be a beautiful exhibition, very near home. My idea now is this “In My Street.” I want other streets to make the same exhibition and come to the gallery. Everyone can see “In My Street” and have 25 people. We have a whole grid around town with everyone. Now I'm home on my own street. The first time I went to visit people, someone said to me, “Of course you don't know anyone. You never come out of your gallery.” It's not true, but I live on top of my gallery, so I go by elevator, get out on my terrace and go in my house.  Sharon: You put the pandemic to good use with this. Marie: Yes. Sharon: Marie, I could talk to you forever. Thank you so much. This is great, because it's so hard when you're at a show to talk to anyone for more than three seconds. It's great to hear your whole story, and thank you for sharing it with us. Marie: Thank you, Sharon. There's much more.  We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

Join RevKess and Kalisara when we explore time travel and magic with Rebekah Dodson. Rebekah Dodson is a word weaver of romance, fantasy, and sci-fi, including Postcards from Paris, The Surrogate, and her upcoming YA, Clock City. Mirrors: This is the story of how I bedded a queen and married a poet, all to end the family curse. My name is Gill, and despite what you hear, this story is all my sister’s fault. Marie: It’s 1154 A.D., and I am trapped in medieval France. Even worse, I’m about to be crowned king. It can’t be all bad, because I’ve met someone, my lady in red, and this part of my story is all about her. Magic: Most people me Gill (also Henry - long story!) and this is my pretty epic tale about how I braved the cliffs of Dover to become king, how I finally got the girl, and experienced some magical shit along the way. Despite what you hear, I'm starting to think this whole thing is my fault. You can follow Rebekah on Facebook, Twitter, or on her website.

Learn why a little talked about financial question may be the most important action you take with money. Before we get started, I wanted to let you know about another awesome podcast called Profit Boss Radio. Profit Boss Radio, hosted by MBA and Certified Planner Hilary Hendershott, highlights inspiring women who have created success in their financial and professional life. Each week you can tune in and hear how women have paved the road to sustained success with both beliefs and actions. Check outprofitbossradio.com. Linda, I had an unexpected "trial run" of what it would be like if the banks were shut down. My car was broken into and my purse was stolen with my credit cards and checkbook. I had to shut down all my accounts on a Friday. If it hadn't been for the emergency cash that you have been recommending for some time, I wouldn't have been able to get my car repaired, the locks changed on my house, my drivers license replaced, medications filled, groceries, gas etc. Because of fraud & identity theft, there's no temporary cards or checks or replacements done online. It takes a week to get replacement cards, checks etc. My passport and birth certificate became my lifelines and thank goodness were not in the purse. I am fortunate in that I could have used my business accounts in a pinch but what if those had been unavailable too? Thank you, Marie It’s different than your emergency fund. An emergency fund is for unforeseen expenses such as a car repair, dental or medical emergency, etc. That can be kept in a bank account. But what if you can’t access the bank? ATM goes down (happened many times, most recently in England), DDOS internet attack, or EMP (electromagnetic pulse) flare from the sun, grid problem. Now you need cash on hand! How much cash should I keep on hand? At least 3 months grocery money, gas money, restaurants, supplies. In general about 1/3 of what your total monthly budget is (more is even better). If you spend $10,000 a month including your mortgage, then I’d have at least $3,000 on hand, for $1,000 a month, $300. Please subscribe and leave me a review on iTunes or Stitcher Radio. Move your net worth in the right direction by getting “11 Quick Financial Tips to Boost Your Wealth” at www.lindapjones.com.

Baby Blues.... Love Unlimted Orcherstra Yes I,m Ready... Barbara Mason Be Thankful For What you got---William Devaughn  Only The Loot---R.Kelly A Toast To The People Look At California...Maze Check Out Grover...G. Washington Fallin' like Dominoes....D.Byrd Here We Go Again...Isley Brothers Love Is The Power...Teddy Pendergrass Inside My Love.... M. Riperton Wait...E.W.F. Hey Western Union Man....Jerry Butler It.s To Late... The Stylistics Dance For Me... Kevin Ford Come On Over Here... Toni Braxton I'm A Sucker For Your Love...T.Marie (It's the way) Nature Planned It... Four Tops When Love Calls...Atlantic Starr So Very Hard To Go...Tower Of Power Even When You Sleep...S.O.S.Band The House That Jack Built...A.Franklin More Than a Woman... Calvin Richardson Maybe Your Baby...Stevie Wonder A Woman Needs Love...Ray Parker I want a love I Can See...Temptations Open My Heart...Yolanda Adams

Hi! I'm Kohei. I'm from Kanagawa in Japan. I'm 20 years old.Hi! I'm Marie I'm from Hokkaido in Japan. I'm 21. We'll interview two people from overseas about March 11th this year. As you know a big earthquake occurred in Japan on Marth 11th. Of couse, we know what happened and the problems now. For example, there is a nuclear power problem and  a polotocal responsibility problem.So, we want to know what to know what people from overseas are feeling and thinking. Conclusion We interviewed to two people from overseas. Marie) It was good experience because we could listen to their opinions. Immediately after big earthquake, she went back to her country. She returned to Japan. And she cooperates with the saving electricity. Kohei) When I have heard their opinions, I felt powerful emotion. They said we donated some money because we can nothing to do for people in Tohoku. And I was surprised that they also save electricity. After the interview, I said thank you a lot. Transcript ①Kohei’s interview transcript Introduce please. Hello, my name is Juvonick Miria. I’m from Kansas College. 1) Where were you, when the earthquake occurred? I was at the Fuchinobe Domes. Me) Fuchinobe Domes? What did you do? When I’m happened, me and my friends run outside because we were     scared and didn’t know what’s happening. 2) Have you ever gone to Tohoku to volunteer after the earthquake or done anything else? I actually haven’t. I wanted to one point but I didn’t really know how do anything so I just sat my room. I feel bad Me) you did donate? I’ve donated some money from like at the convenience store. But I do nothing significant. 3) Do you aim to save electricity at your home? Yes, I usually in summer I used air conditioner all the time. But lately I have saved higher and turned off every night so it’s really hot my room. ②Marie’s interview transcript My name is Maria Mage. I’m from Hawaii University. 1) Where were you, when the earthquake occurred? I was back home in Hawaii at home. Marie) When did you do at home? I was told of the tsunami and earthquake while I was at work 2) Have you ever gone to Tohoku to volunteer after the earthquake or done anything else? I have not gone to volunteer and I’ve only donated a little bit at the convenient store. Marie) Do you think about the volunteer? I would like to, but I don’t know what I could do the help how I would be helpful. So I just donated. 3) Do you aim to save electricity at your home? I tried keep my lights off but I have used air conditioner cause it’s hot. I’m trying. Marie) Are you save air conditioner do you feel hot in your room? Yeah, I keep on the high standing but I use a lot.

They invested so much of their time, energy, money, and hearts into their VBAC preparation. They craved immediate skin-to-skin, fought for their rights, and advocated for themselves. They labored hard, sacrificed for their babies, and felt the heartbreak that comes from an unplanned repeat Cesarean. They found healing, and they found each other. Now, these 7 Women of Strength want to share it all with you. How does it feel to have a CBAC? We invite you to sit in this space with us and find out. Additional links Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program ( https://www.thevbaclink.com/product/advanced-doula-certification/ ) CBAC Support - The VBAC Link Community Facebook Group ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/cbaclink ) Episode sponsor This episode is sponsored by our very own Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program ( https://www.thevbaclink.com/vbac-doula-training/ ). It is the most comprehensive VBAC doula training in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced video course. Head over to thevbaclink.com ( http://www.thevbaclink.com ) to find out more information and sign up today. Sponsorship inquiries Are you interested in sponsoring The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink ( https://www.advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink ) or email us at info@thevbaclink.com. Full transcript Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. Meagan: Alright, alright. Hello, everybody. This is The VBAC Link, and you are with myself, Meagan, and Julie. We have a special treat. You are with a whole bunch of other people today, and we are so excited that you are going to be able to hear from all of them. This episode is going to be powerful. It’s going to be emotional. It might be something that fuels fire and something that you totally relate to. I want to start the episode off by encouraging you to have an open mind and an open heart as you’re listening to these people’s stories. We are going to be talking about CBAC today. If you didn’t know, I had a CBAC. I wanted a VBAC with my second, and it ended up in a Cesarean. In so many ways, I feel like I can relate to all of these people. I can’t wait to hear their personal journeys, and feelings, and stories. We do have a special message. We are going to skip over our review of the week, and Julie is going to go over the differences between CBAC, VBAC, and scheduled C-section. Is that what you said? Julie: You got it. Meagan: Yes. Alright. So, we are going to get into that, and then we will get into these awesome stories. Episode sponsor Julie: Birth workers, listen up. Do you want to increase your knowledge of birth after a Cesarean? We created our Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program ( https://www.thevbaclink.com/vbac-doula-training/ ) just for you. It is the most comprehensive VBAC doula training in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced video course. This course is designed for birth workers who want to take their VBAC education to the next level so you can support parents who have had a Cesarean in the most effective ways. We have created a complete system, a step-by-step road map that shows exactly what you need to know in order to support parents birthing after a Cesarean. Head over to thevbaclink.com ( http://www.thevbaclink.com ) to find out more information and sign up today. That’s thevbaclink.com. See you there. Defining VBAC, CBAC, RCS, and ERCS Julie: Alright. I just cannot tell you how much I love this group of women that are in this conference right now. I am looking at our little recording screen. Everyone has different colored circles with their first initials in it, and it warms my heart because today-- I am going to share a little bit. Not too many personal details, but we had a Facebook group for all the people that were sharing their stories today just to relay information and make sure everyone is on the same page. So, I filled everyone in earlier this afternoon on the details, and I left to go about doing all my other things. But when I came back to Facebook Messenger, there were dozens and dozens of messages from these moms talking about what they were going to say on the show, and how their feelings are, and getting really vulnerable with each other, and honestly creating some of the strongest connections. I could literally feel the connections growing and strengthening just in the Facebook conversation. It was so-- I don’t even know the right word. Meagan: Powerful. It was really cool. Julie: So endearing. Yes, powerful. I love it. And so, I am looking forward to this episode. These are all moms who attempted a vaginal birth after a Cesarean but ended up with a C-section rather than a VBAC. Before we get into the stories, I want to go over some terminology because the acronyms are pretty nuts, right? You have VBAC, HBAC, CBAC, RCS, VBA2C, HBA2C, and sometimes it can be really confusing. Generally, VBAC is obviously vaginal birth after cesarean. RCS or ERCS refers to parents who choose to schedule a repeat Cesarean whether they want to have a Cesarean or whether it’s because of medical reasons. They may not want to do it, but they feel like it’s the best thing for them. And then CBAC stands for Cesarean birth after Cesarean, which is defined as parents who attempted a trial of labor, or labored after a Cesarean and ended up with a repeat Cesarean. We want to go through and identify the unique challenges that these parents face and the different struggles and emotions that they go through, and maybe bring some things up that you might not have considered as you prepare for your own VBAC. We encourage you to listen-- birth worker, parent, anybody, stay tuned because there is going to be some really, really good information here from some really, really strong and powerful women. Paige Alright. I made Paige go first. Paige transcribes our podcast, so we can read them now. Meagan: Yay. Julie: Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can also read them too, and she is going to be transcribing this one. We absolutely love Paige. Paige was a member of our VBAC Link Community. Well, she still is. But, she suggested that we create a CBAC group just for parents who were in the community that ended up with a repeat Cesarean so that they could have some support and like-minded people. Paige is the founder of our CBAC community as well. We are so grateful for her for everything that she does. We are just going to talk about Cesarean and ask questions. Alright. So, Paige. What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC or just CBAC in general? Paige: I would say that first off, it wasn’t our fault. The reality is that some birth outcomes are just the luck of the draw in spite of the best prep. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I did everything under the sun and more to set myself up for a successful VBAC after two C-sections. I was going for my second VBAC attempt this time around. This was in June of last year. Some Cesareans truly are necessary. There’s a trend right now in the birth world to avoid a C-section at all costs, and it can feel really painful to moms that did everything to do just that but didn’t get it. So, it sounds really simple, but sometimes we need a reminder that Cesareans truly can be necessary. Meagan: That’s so true and not only necessary but a positive experience too, right? They don’t have to be scary and negative. Okay, so question number two is: What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through or had to work through post-birth? Paige: I narrowed it down to two, actually, which are confusion and embarrassment. I was mostly so confused how my intuition told me so strongly this would happen for me, and then it didn’t. Literally, I woke up from general anesthesia after my second birth, so my first CBAC, and I was so empowered from the labor experience. My first words were, “Can I do that again? I want to try that again”. From that moment on, that’s when I started preparing for my VBAC after two C-sections. I felt so good after every prenatal once I got pregnant. Every chiropractic appointment, every pelvic floor, I knew that I was on the right path. I had every reason to be confident it was going to happen. So now, learning to trust that those feelings were real, the journey with something that I needed in spite of the outcome and that my intuition didn’t lead me astray is something that I am still working on. And then, that level of embarrassment. One of the main reasons I was going for a VBAC was because I wanted to be a champion of VBAC. I wanted to be a walking example of empowered birth. With my first pregnancy and birth, I was so afraid of birth in general. I literally did not think I would survive. So, I wanted to be the success story of going from complete fear to complete confidence and then showing women that this was what we were made to do. I feel like I still came a long way in how confident I was, and how much I have grown, and how strong I am now. But now, with my outcome, it’s tempting to feel like my story makes people afraid to go for a VBAC instead of feeling inspired to do it. But, I still believe in VBAC. I am still so passionate about it. I love it, and I will always long for one. Julie: Yeah. That is some really real stuff. I think it is really important. I think we will probably talk a lot about this during the episode where people get told, “Oh, at least you have a healthy baby,” or, “Aren’t you so grateful for your Cesarean? It saved your life.” I think it’s really important to recognize that there are so many emotions surrounding this, but also-- also, we are grateful that we have a happy, healthy baby and mom. Sometimes, people don’t consider that mental health comes into play when we talk about the health of baby and mom. Sometimes babies aren’t healthy, and sometimes moms aren’t healthy. I’m glad you talked about that. Thanks. The next thing: What is something positive or uplifting you have found in your story, or have you even gotten to that point yet? Paige: Julie, you touched on this a little bit, but The VBAC Link CBAC Support Group ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/cbaclink ) has been the highlight and the greatest source of healing for me, honestly, this time around. I have found women that I know needed to come into my life during this time, and a few of them are on the episode today. It’s so fun to be able to talk to them and see them on here. I just love you all, and I am so grateful for each of you. Especially during COVID, when it’s very isolating, it’s a very difficult time to be going through postpartum. These women helped me feel like I had a tribe like I was seen and understood. This group-- it wasn’t me. It was a joint effort. Julie and Meagan, you don’t know that. But, I was messaging some other women personally, and we talked about how we felt forgotten. We talked about how we wanted to have a space. I still personally message some of these women just to check in on how they’re doing. It meant everything to me to have these women checking in on me during some really dark and lonely days right after my birth because they were going through it too. And I typically stay away from sharing too much on social media, but this CBAC group is such a safe place. It was also really healing to know that you, Julie and Meagan, were both so supportive of creating this group because throughout my pregnancy, you two were some of my biggest mentors. When I got my CBAC, there was this feeling of, “I let them down,” which I know is not true, and obviously, you had no idea who I even was, but seeing the way that you are champions of not just VBAC, but empowered birth and CBAC included in that, just means everything. Meagan: Aw, thank you. Julie: Aw, well, we are so grateful for you. Honestly, when you brought up the group, I texted it to Meagan and our admin, Sarah, and I am like, “Why have we not done that yet?” Meagan: Yeah. Julie: it was an instant “yes” from everybody. We created it, I think, the exact same day. We are really excited to have a space for you because I don’t even understand what you are going through. I know I have seen it with my clients. I obviously hear stories and we see your conversations in the group, but Meagan can relate a little bit more because she had a second Cesarean after trying for VBAC. But, being able to just be a silent lurker, not to sound creepy or anything, in the group really helps me understand better where CBAC moms are coming from. It helps me understand a little bit better how to approach them. And so, I just want to thank everybody, not only on this call but in the group for being there and being in that space. It really is such a supportive space, so thanks. Paige: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, when I didn’t get my VBAC, I was in the group that caused me a lot of issues emotionally at the time Julie: A different group, not our group. Meagan: Not our group, but a different group back in the day. I mean, it’s still around. But, I remember posting in there that I did not get my VBAC and I remember pretty much in a way being told, “I told you so. Why were you so stupid for trying in the first place?” And so, when you said, “We want a place for us. We feel like there’s no place for us,” I remember leaving every VBAC group. Every single one, and unsubscribing to everything VBAC because I couldn’t be in that space. I couldn’t hear it. I couldn’t be there. I was sick of the, “I told you so‘s.” Like Julie said, when this was proposed, it was a no-brainer and a, “Where the heck have we been?” type of a thing. A moment of-- why didn’t we even think of this? So, so, so grateful for you. Last but not least, I know we have got lots of amazing people to share. Is there anything else that you would like to share or that you feel like people need to know? Paige: I just want to reiterate how strong these women are, how resilient they are. Not by choice, but because they have to be. There is an extra level of courage and deeper strength that we have to tap into to not get the birth outcome that you want not only once, but often multiple times in some cases. But for women who are prepping for their VBAC right now, I want to advise you to not be afraid, especially listening to this episode. We don’t want you to be afraid of a CBAC or a VBAC in general. I want to say, fight for it. Invest your heart in it. Go 100% all-in if that’s what your tuition is telling you to do. Follow that because the chances really are that you will get it. The odds are literally in your favor. And if you don’t get it, if the doctors label you a “failed TOLAC”, we are here. Now that this group is made, we are here for you. We will hold the space for you. We will catch you and you are never a failure to us. You will be okay. You might not feel it and it might take some time, but I promise that you will be okay. Julie: Me and Meagan are over here texting each other about how much we love you. Paige: Oh my gosh. I love you guys. It’s mutual, very much so. Julie: Before we go on to our next person, who is Kristian, I want to touch on something that I actually forgot to mention at the beginning. Most of preparing for birth is getting educated, having the right provider, having the right support team, knowing all your options, etc., etc., etc. But there is a part of it that is just pure, freaking luck. I have seen it myself with my own clients. Sometimes you can do everything and you can work so hard, and you just get dealt a really rough hand and end up in a repeat Cesarean. But I have also seen clients who-- how do I say this? They don’t work as hard or care as much into putting the effort in, and they get lucky and they have their VBAC. Sometimes that is a really hard thing to process, even as a doula. Even as a doula, I sometimes have a really hard time processing, “Why did this birth go that way but that birth went this way?” I know I have talked to Meagan about this several times and I know some of you are going to talk about this, but it’s really hard when you have worked so hard and get dealt a bad hand, and get that bad luck on your side. I think that what Paige touched on is exactly important, is that sometimes it’s just bad luck. That’s all it is. There is no one to blame and it’s nobody’s fault. It’s just bad luck. Alright, next up, Kristian. Kristian Meagan: Kristian! Kristian: Hi, guys. Julie: Hi, Kristian. Meagan: Hello, hello. Julie: Alright, Meagan, why don’t you start? We can alternate so that we don’t keep asking the same questions. Meagan: Well, the questions are kind of the same. Julie: But no, I mean you ask one and three this time. I’ll ask two and four. Change it up. Meagan: Gotcha, perfect. Okay. What is something that you wish people would know about your CBAC and CBAC in general? Kristian: Paige touched on it a little bit and you both have touched on it, but I think you can do everything “right”, I use that in quotes, and still end up with a CBAC. I never thought I would have one Cesarean birth, much less two. I literally planned my VBAC in the hospital with my oldest. Both of my babies were footling breech and both times I went into labor the night before my scheduled ECV. In both scenarios, I thought I had done everything right to have the birth outcome that I had hoped for. But yeah, that luck was not on my side either time. Julie: I agree. I think that's a really important thing to note. Okay. What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through now or had to work through after your birth? Sorry, I am just going to go off on a little, teeny tangent. I think that processing a birth is an ongoing process, but where are you at in your journey right now? What is the hardest thing you are working through or had to work through? Kristian: Yeah. I think the biggest emotion I have had and I’m still processing is just the frustration of that I spent so much time, energy, money trying to get my son in the right position. Even before I knew he was breech, I thought I was hopefully going to prevent him from ever being breech like my daughter. Ultimately, even after doing all of those things, I ended up with the same results. And so, unlike my first birth, I don’t have the “what if‘s” of like, “What if I had tried X, Y, or Z?” But I have the frustration of, I tried all of those things. For me, they didn’t work. And so, that I am still working on. I think if I hear one more person tell me about Spinning Babies®, or chiropractic, or any number of things that I tried, I might just scream at them. Everyone is trying to be so helpful and thoughtful, but when you have tried all of those things, and you’ve done all the things that people do to get a VBAC, and it doesn’t end up being that, hearing them one more time is just too much. So, still working through that frustration piece. Julie: It’s definitely understandable. That’s a really hard thing to go through because like you said, even though you know people are well-intentioned, it’s still like, “Yes. Yes, I did that.” I had that with my breastfeeding journey. Breastfeeding never works for me, ever. All four times and despite all of my-- I tried all the things, literally. I think I can relate to your sentiment when if I hear anyone say, “Did you ever try fenugreek?” I would like, “Alright, let me just punch you in the face right now.” Anyways, I can relate to that. Alright, Meagan, you are up. Meagan: What is something positive or uplifting that you have found in your story, or nothing if you have not gotten to that point, and is there anything you’d like to share on that? Kristian: Even though the physical aspects of my labor and birth were almost identical, like both times footling breech baby, both times going into labor the night before my scheduled ECV, how quickly my labors progressed, and then ultimately having a C-section. Even though the physical aspect of it was so similar each time, the fact that I had a different provider the second time, and that provider was truly amazing, it was such a healing experience that I never thought was possible with a CBAC. If you would have told me when I got pregnant with my son that I would have a CBAC and I’d feel okay about it because of my provider, I don’t think I would have believed you. I know I wouldn’t have believed you. In my first birth, I felt really unsupported, sort of like I was that unwanted statistic of a C-section because I was with midwives that deliver at a birth center. With my second provider, he was there the whole time. I think he was as disappointed as I was that I needed to have a C-section. I also knew that if it came to that and I had to have a C-section, it wasn’t for any other reason than that it was medically necessary and he gave me the best shot. He did an ECV while I was in labor. He let me labor as long as possible to see if the baby would flip and he would have delivered a breech baby if my son had been frank breech. So, all of those things I just felt really, really supported. Afterwards, he was there. He was there to explain what happened, and to talk it through with me, and spend the time, and tell me right away that I could try to have a VBAC if and when I have another baby. The physical aspect was the same, but the mental aspect was so different. Julie: I think that’s important to understand. Meagan, do you want to add anything about your second Cesarean or do we want to just go on? Meagan: For the sake of time and everybody else’s story, we’ll just go on. Julie: Okay, cool. Alright, Kristian. Is there anything else you want to people to know about your birth specifically or cesarean birth after cesarean in general? Kristian: Both things have been touched on already. The CBAC Link has been such an amazing community to join. Like Paige, I am not really a social media poster. I don’t really typically do that, but the group has been such an amazing place to process that. So I would say to listeners, if you have had a CBAC or if ultimately you end up in that situation, the community is here and it’s an amazing community to lift you up. And then I think for people out there that are trying to support CBAC women, I would say just to listen and not add the added advice. I had a lactation consultant after my son was born that said, “Oh, I wish you lived in Canada because you would have had two vaginal births because they don’t do C-sections for breech babies.” Julie: Whoa. Whoa. Kristian: First, I don’t live in Canada and I don’t think that that’s necessarily true. So, I would just say, whether it is true or not, it is not helpful in the situation. Just let the CBAC mama have her story and not add to it. Julie: Thank you. Thank you so much for that. I think that’s really important. Marie Julie: Okay, let’s see. Next up is Marie. Alright, Marie. Marie: Hi there. Julie: Welcome. Marie just moved away from us which makes me sad, but that’s okay. Marie, we still love you. What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC or just CBAC in general? Marie: I would say more often than not that we would love to share if you asked. I just wanted to give a little context to share about my CBAC because my CBAC was very traumatic for me. Paige touched on this, but it was necessary because it saved my son and that was part of that trauma. I had labored naturally because my body doesn’t respond really well from epidurals. That’s what I found out with my first one. Anyway, I labor naturally for 18 hours and then I eventually had to have an epidural placed because right before my transition phase was exceptionally painful and I felt everything. My son was having heart decelerations in between contractions. Then, they were happening so frequently that we realized we just had to get him out as soon as possible. Again, my body wasn’t responding to the epidural, so I felt a good deal of my surgery and I couldn’t help but be very vocal. Eventually, when they got him out he wasn’t crying, so I had that mentality going on as well. Our son was okay, but he was diagnosed with hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy which is brain damage caused by lack of oxygen. He was driven to Primary’s and put on a cooling pad for four days to slow down his brain activity to try and let it heal optimally. The following week, he had tests for his heart and brain until finally, they let us know he had miraculous results and overall his brain damage was little to none. So, while my CBAC was traumatic, it saved my son. C-sections really are a blessing sometimes. I would want people to know that C-sections are really, really amazing. My first one felt unnecessary because it was failure to progress, so I was left feeling really empowered to get a vaginal birth the second time, but the second time I really needed that C-section. Julie: Absolutely. Meagan: She really has experienced the two opposite ends of like, “Oh, maybe not” and, “Okay, totally necessary.” What is one of the biggest emotions that you are working through or did work through? Marie: I would say it’s a mixture of both because I feel like I have worked through it, but then every once in a while it pops up. I would say that’s bitterness. My bitterness comes from skin-to-skin. I had looked forward-- my cousin once told me the most magical feeling in the whole world is having that skin-to-skin right after you deliver your baby. I just could not wait to experience that. With my daughter, during my first C-section, I didn’t get a hold her for a couple of hours, and then with the second one, as I was preparing for this VBAC, I accepted the small possibility of having a repeat Cesarean because all I really wanted was to be awake and lucid, which I wasn’t with my first, and to get to hold him skin-to-skin immediately after his birth. So, during his Cesarean, not only did I not get a gentle Cesarean, but I didn’t get to hear him, hold him, or behold his face for four days. When I first held him four days later, I was a ball of emotions trying so hard to just savor the moment, and holding his hand that was all bruised by all the needles, and looking at his face, and his oxygen mask. I went to bed that night feeling like we had both been cheated out of that moment between mother and son. I was fighting resentment that I had, but I soon discovered that lots of NICU parents feel the complex, dual emotions of being both angry and grateful. As time has passed, I would say that the bitterness is mostly gone. It still pops up from time to time that I didn’t get to be with him the first two weeks of his life, but overall now, I’m left feeling more gratitude than anything. Meagan: Yeah. And during all of that time, I just have to congratulate you on how amazingly strong you were because I can’t even imagine how hard that was. But you were a rock. Marie: Well, you are one of my doulas, so you definitely knew that. Meagan: I know you are a rock, yes. Okay Julie, do you have the other question? Julie: Alright, Marie. What is something positive or uplifting you have found in your journey or have you not really gotten to that point yet? Marie: It’s an astute question because the word “positive” is used. It’s difficult to find joyful, memorable moments when your goals or expectations are not met. So, what you’re left doing is finding gratitude, validation, and positivity in your CBAC story. But first and foremost, I am forever deeply grateful for the miracle of my son. Looking back, I am so grateful I had a provider who helped me go into labor on my own and that I fought for that too, because he did introduce induction options. I really fought for going into labor on my own because I didn’t with my first. I feel validated that I did everything I could to get a natural, vaginal birth. There’s a lot of things I have found. There’s a lot of positive things I found in my story, you know. I found a family among NICU parents and the CBAC Facebook group. I learned that there are better experiences and there are sacred experiences. It all comes down to what your story is, what your experience is. It belongs to you and it is special to you. It’s nobody else’s. So I guess, there you go. Julie: No, I love that. I think you answered that perfectly. Maybe I worded the whole question wrong for everybody. Everybody else, you are free to interpret question number three however you would like. Marie: No, it was great. No, you hit it on the head. Julie: I love it. I love everything you said. Meagan: Is there anything that you would like to add? Marie: I would want people to know, throughout The VBAC Link Podcast, we have been uplifted and inspired by so many women, including wonderful Meagan, who had successful vaginal births after multiple Cesareans and a very high success rate. It’s a great goal. I don’t have any regrets trying for a VBAC. I would do it all over again. But anyways, I would want people to know that there are some CBAC women who might end up choosing or needing to do an elective Cesarean for any subsequent pregnancies. With that being said, I would want people to know, especially coming from a strong VBAC mentality, it’s a very scary and difficult decision to come to. It’s something that I am having to face right now because I do want more kids, but having the VBAC and the Cesarean were both scary. I am really having to juggle with what I’m going to do next. But if I end up wanting to do an elective Cesarean, or if I need to do one, then I would want my VBAC community, my VBAC sisters, to be supportive of me and excited for me and be excited that I am doing elective Cesarean. I would hope that I would have support from that. Meagan: You deserve that, yeah. You deserve that support. Julie: Yeah, I agree. Marie: Thanks. Julie: Well, thank you, Marie. Next up, we have Anne. Anne Meagan: Yes. Anne, we have: What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC? Anne: You guys, first off, can I just say that I am really fangirling here because I have listened to The VBAC Link, oh my goodness, for as long as I can-- from the get-go, probably. Julie: Thank you so much. Anne: You guys have been there through my first VBAC. I did have a C-section, then a VBAC, and then I got pregnant with twins. That put a rudder in everything. I was going for a 2VBAC, which is difficult in itself with twins. So, I guess that’s one thing I would like to touch on which is different in my story is that with multiples. A vaginal birth is already hard enough to get supportive providers for, but with the twins, it was even harder. I really had to fight tooth and nail to even get the chance to try for my VBAC. For me, it was about facing fear head-on whether you are trying for a VBAC or having that CBAC which I ended up with ultimately. I want people to know that it’s never an easy choice whether you decide to get it or whether it’s an emergency in the end. Having that C-section is not the easy way out like other people can see. That’s what I can say on that. Julie: Absolutely. I agree with you 100% because sometimes you have to choose. Sometimes choosing a repeat Cesarean is just as difficult as going through labor and ending up with a CBAC. So, no. I agree 100%. Anne: Yeah and definitely. I did the TOLAC and everything. We got to that 7 centimeters and we elected to have the CBAC. I cried my heart out. It’s never an easy choice. Julie: Yeah, it never is. Never, along the way. For sure. Alright. What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through or had to work through post-birth? Anne: I would say mine would be shame, I guess. I don’t know if anybody else feels this way, but I love telling my birth story because it has so many cool and different things that happened along the way. We were induced with a Foley bulb and the labor was just like-- oh my gosh, it was textbook. Like, beautiful labor. I didn’t even feel my contractions before I got the epidural. It was a good experience. But then, when I get to the point where I have to tell people that we stalled out at 7 centimeters and we decided to get a C-section, you just see peoples’ faces turn a little bit. I am still processing that. Not feeling ashamed and being proud of how hard I fought, and how wonderful it was anyways. Julie: Yeah, I think that’s really important. I am glad you brought that up. I think that’s a really hard thing to work through. Meagan: Absolutely. Okay, next question. What is something positive or uplifting that you found in your story? Anne: Well, it’s like I said, I did have a really good labor to begin with and I felt supported in all my choices. That was something really positive for me because, with my first, which ended up in a C-section, I didn’t feel that support at all. It was healing in that way. I am just happy overall that I got to have that experience and got to give my babies those labor hormones. That was my ultimate goal to have them receive that and go from there. I’m happy overall that I got my number one goal. Julie: Yeah, that’s awesome. Alright. Is there anything else you want to add or that you wish people would know? Anne: Even if a CBAC wasn’t your first choice-- heck, which obviously if we are going for a VBAC, it probably wasn’t, that having that supportive provider is just as important as having a supportive provider with your VBAC. I feel like my provider definitely made the whole difference for my recovery and how I feel about my whole experience because when push came to shove, and we decided to have the C-section, and I cried, she was there for me. Whatever I asked, she made sure that we would try and get whatever possible to make me feel comfortable. I asked her to go through everything she was doing, to narrate as she was doing it. She said it was an odd request, but she did do it. So, just being heard from a provider and having that support is just-- it is so important. When you’re looking for a provider, not just thinking about how they will support you through a VBAC, but also trying to figure out if they are going to be there if plans don’t go as you planned. Julie: I really love that thought. I think that’s really important. I honestly don’t think I ever thought about it in that perspective before. So, thank you for sharing that. Joleen Julie: Okay, next up we have Joleen. Joleen: Hi there. Julie: Hi Joleen. How are you? Joleen: Doing well. Julie: So good. I am so good just to be surrounded and listening to you ladies. I am smiling the whole way through this. I just love it. Okay, question number one. What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC or just CBAC in general? Joleen: So, a quick briefing. I had my CBAC in October 2020 following a spontaneous 33-hour labor. My water ruptured naturally at home at 38 weeks and 4 days. I never dilated past 1 centimeter and baby never descended past -2 station even with five hours of a Pitocin induction during that. A hospital birth, so I had no food and pretty much no sleep. So, I did have my CBAC called failure to progress, but it was my choice because of the exhaustion. Overall, I think as a CBAC parent that we all had this goal set and probably had small goals in between and we had to reach those goals. We researched and we prepared and we advocated. We did “all of the things” and in the end, no matter what our outcome was, we all have our experiences and our stories. However we feel about these experiences, I just want people to know that our feelings are valid. It’s okay if you need to mourn your birth experience. It’s okay to love your birth experience too. We just have to find a healthy output for those things. Meagan: Absolutely. And it’s okay to take as much time as you need to mourn that birth experience. Question number two is: What is one of the biggest emotions that you are working through or have already worked through? Joleen: I would say, being recently postpartum from my CBAC, when I have time to think back at my whole journey, it’s not really an emotion, it’s more of a gnawing, “What if?” I originally wanted a home birth. I wanted the twinkle lights and the affirmations, the HypnoBirthing and the birth tub. I had a hospital birth. I constantly ask myself, “What if I stayed home longer? What if I hadn’t gotten the epidural? What if I had the doula that I wanted?” That’s really the one thing that weighs on me. I think a doula would have changed my outcome. “What if I had gone a few more hours before agreeing to have a surgery?” It gnaws and it eats at me. I will share a quick story. Before they took me back to the OR, I turned to my boyfriend and I said, “Do you remember how I was after our first daughter?” Her name is Elowen. He said, “Yeah.” I said, “You need to prepare for me to be like that again.” He was like, “I know.” I said, “I don’t know how I’m going to be after this. I might be struggling. I just want you to know that. I want you to prepare for that if you have to help me through this.” They took me back to the OR and as they were taking baby out, I had heard my midwife’s voice. I had no idea that she was the attending midwife during my surgery. She said, “You know, I told you that she was going to try to come on my birthday.” I just felt so calm in that moment. I said, “Heather, is that you?” She said, “Yeah, it’s me.” Immediately, the first thing that came out of my mouth was, “Heather, I didn’t get my VBAC.” And I cried. I was bawling. I could feel her emotion behind that blue veil. She said, “I know, hon. I am so sorry.” That was the first time I realized that I didn’t get my VBAC and it really sunk in. Meagan: It’s crazy how that can happen and you are like, “Wow. Alright. And here we go. That just sunk in right there and I am processing this now.” Julie: Yeah. Honestly, I am so invested in this story, I don’t even know what question we are on anymore. Meagan: I think three. What is something positive or uplifting? Julie: Yeah. Have you found something uplifting or positive in your journey? If not, that’s okay too. Joleen: Yeah, so a positive thing that I took out of my whole experience and my whole journey was that I found this strength that I never knew that I had. I so often hear the phrase, “Use your voice even if it shakes.” I learned to advocate for myself and thankfully I had two wonderful providers, and OB and a Certified Nurse-Midwife who gave me no pushback. They supported me the entire way from the get-go. Meagan: Okay. Is there anything you would like anyone to know about CBAC? Joleen: Yeah, so it’s like the other ladies have mentioned-- you can prepare all you want. It’s going to be the luck of the draw. That’s even what OB had told me at my two-week postpartum visit. I asked, “Was there anything physically wrong with me inside? Anything wrong with my pelvis?” He said, “You know, it was just the luck of the draw. I have no idea why things went the way they went.” You can eat all the dates you want. You can go to the pelvic floor therapist. You can go to the chiropractor every single week. You can bounce on your ball. You can walk. You can take the red raspberry leaf. You know, it’s not going to give you the outcome that you want. You’re not always going to get that outcome. Meagan: It doesn’t always happen, yeah. Joleen: Yeah, you have to accept it. Meagan: Mhmm. Joleen: It is a hard pill to swallow, too, if it doesn’t happen the way you want it to. But just know that you are not alone in your struggles. Julie: Absolutely. I think that’s really important. You’re not alone in your struggles. I actually was taking notes while you were talking because I want to make some social media posts from some things you said. Actually, all of you guys, I have been taking notes. But, I think that’s really important to know. Okay, well thank you so much, Joleen, for sharing your story with us. You’re right, I want to chat with everybody so long. But Meagan is like, “Come on. We have got to get back on track.” Okay, okay, okay. Meagan: I want to make sure everyone gets their time. Brett Julie: Alright. Next is Brett. Brett: Hey. Julie: Hi Brett. I am so glad you’re with us. You are one of the people whose names I am familiar within the community. Now I’m familiar with all of your names, but Brett, I think I just remembered you from-- Brett: I think I was there from the beginning. I was one of the first people. Julie: Yeah, I love it. Let’s get right into it. What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC or CBAC in general? Brett: I think one of the hardest things for me to deal with after my CBAC was everyone saying, “Well, at least you have a healthy baby,” because yes, I have a healthy baby and that’s amazing. I am thrilled he’s okay and I don’t have to worry about him, but “at least you have a healthy baby” can be absolutely true, but it can also be very unhelpful to women who are going through birth trauma and the pain of losing the birth experience that we fought so hard for. Meagan: Absolutely. Julie: Yeah. I agree 100%. Meagan: It discredits, I feel like. Brett: Yeah, it takes away from all of the hard work that we went through. It takes the mom out of it and it makes it all about the baby. Birth isn’t just about the baby. Birth is also about the mom. Julie: I agree. I feel the same way about the phrase, when everyone in my life tells me, “It will be okay. It will be okay.” I’m like, “It will be okay. I know that. It will be okay, but right now it’s not okay.” Meagan: It doesn’t feel okay. Julie: So, I need help now. Brett: I love the concept of toxic positivity and how being positive is good, but you can be too positive. If you don’t give people the space to talk about their emotions and talk about their trauma, you are not helping. You are just silencing them and shutting them down. I feel like that happens a lot to women who go through traumatic births. Julie: Yeah, totally. Alright, Meagan. Next question. Meagan: What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through or have worked through? Brett: I think for me it was probably the feeling of failure and the guilt that came along with it. I chose to switch to a home birth VBAC around 35 weeks mostly because of COVID, but I was honestly using that as an excuse. I really wanted to try for a home birth VBAC. I paid for the midwife in addition to the OB. I spent all the extra money on all the extra things. You all know what I am talking about. Julie: Yeah. Brett: I still failed to get my VBAC despite having perfect conditions. I was at home with my mom, and my husband, and a midwife who is supportive. I did everything and I still failed to do it. Knowing that in having two C-sections now, I am limiting the number of kids I can most likely have, it hurts. The guilt for all of the effort and money that I put into something that I “failed at”, it is real. Julie: It is real. No, those are very real things. I agree with you guys 100%. Everything you have said has touched me in a whole bunch of different ways. So, thank you for sharing that with us. Okay, my turn. What is something positive or uplifting you have found in your story or have you not even gotten to that point yet? Brett: Honestly, even though I didn’t get my VBAC, my CBAC birth was super healing for me. My first birth was just hell. 29 hours of induced labor with every medication side effect in the book. The magnesium made me feel like I had the flu. I puked over 40 times during labor. Then, our son came out not breathing and I didn’t get to meet him for five hours. I was a drugged mess and don’t remember pretty much most of it. S With this birth, I went into labor on my own. I had a wonderful labor at home. My husband made burgers in the middle of labor and I devoured a whole burger in two minutes in the middle of labor. Even when we made the decision to transfer, that part was emotionally traumatic, our son came out screaming and I heard his voice right away. I got to hold him right away and we got skin-to-skin, which I didn’t get with Landon. I didn’t get to meet him for the first five hours and it just made a really big difference in healing after the first for me. Julie: I think that’s really important. I just had a chuckle when you said cheeseburgers because I am a big fan of cheeseburgers. I always joke about that. When I tell my clients about eating and drinking during labor, I am like, “I like smoothies and stuff because if you’re going to throw up, they generally come up smoother than a cheeseburger does.” And so, I am always talking about cheeseburgers and birth. Brett: I actually ate a cheeseburger. My husband was making them. My husband is a chef and so we said, “Well, you can make food for the midwife and stuff. It will distract you while I am in labor.” So, he made burgers. They asked if I wanted one and I was like, “You know what? Yes. I would love one.” I literally ate the whole thing before the midwife had even sat down with her plate of food. It was great. Julie: Good for you. Brett: It was awesome. And then because I ended up with a C-section, I didn’t get to eat and I had all the side effects to the medication again, so I didn’t get to eat for 24 hours after that cheeseburger. it was a good thing I had the cheeseburger. Meagan: Yeah, that’s so awesome. Okay so, is there anything uplifting? Look, I am not even looking at the questions now. Yes, something positive or uplifting you have found in your story? Julie: What else do you want people to know? Meagan: I thought it was number three. Oh yeah, duh. She just said that. Brett: That was number three. Meagan: Okay. What else do you want people to know? Julie: Cheeseburgers. I know we got distracted. Sorry. Brett: That’s alright. I wish that people understood that the emotional healing from a Cesarean is just as important as the physical healing. A Cesarean incision heals over long before the emotional wounds stop hurting, but nobody really thinks about that part. We are kind of just left on our own to try and muddle through that. That’s hard. Meagan: Yes. Yes. I think that is so powerful. I had a provider once tell a client, “Oh, as soon as she feels like she can stand up and walk she will be fine.” I was like, “Uh, OK.” Julie: So nonchalant about it. Brett: Yeah. My incision didn’t heal for three months this time. The first time, it was within a couple of weeks and this time I think it was September before my incision fully healed. Honestly, I think it’s because we went to the beach and I spent three days in the saltwater. I think that’s the only reason it actually finally healed over. I don’t know why it took so long, but even then, the emotional stuff was still there when the incision finally healed. Meagan: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I love all of your points. Grace Julie: Alright. Up next, last but not least, or maybe it is the best of all the game. Right? Alright, Grace. Meagan, do you want to ask the first question? Meagan: Yes. Okay, Grace. What is something that you wish people would know about your CBAC or just CBAC in general? Grace: Hi. So first, I just wanted to say thanks for having me on along with these other warrior women. Something I think I wish people knew was how much we all actually invest in fighting and trying for our VBAC and getting there emotionally, physically, and in some cases, financially. I think like someone had said earlier, I was planning my VBAC while I was still in the hospital after having my daughter. I knew I needed a new provider and a new hospital. I wanted a doula. Right from that day on, it was a journey for me for sure. Julie: That’s amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. Okay, second question: What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through now or had to work through after your birth? Grace: My CBAC was definitely emotionally healing in comparison to my first Cesarean. My first Cesarean was from an induced labor, a long labor, my doctor was very impatient. He made me push way before I was ready to. I ended up under general anesthesia, so I really have no positive feelings from my daughter’s birth, unfortunately. This time, I went into labor on my own. I got to labor at home before I went to the hospital. I was pushing. I got everything that I wanted other than literally just pushing a baby out myself. So, that was that. But then I think about, “Well, what if?” All of the what if’s are what I am really struggling with most days is, “What if I got the epidural this time that I really was so strongly against based on my first experience with it? Maybe it would have let me labor a little bit longer,” or, “What if I had just pushed longer instead of making that decision myself to opt for the Cesarean?” My son this time ended up being OP and I knew he was going to be pretty big, so both my midwife and my doula were like, “Well, if it was one or the other maybe we could work through it,” but I think the combination of the two was really stacked against me. At the end of it, they let me make the decision if I wanted to keep trying or to do the Cesarean. I remember my midwife asking me, “Deep down, dig deep. Do you feel it inside if you can push the baby out?” Honestly, I self-reflected and I really didn’t think I could, so that’s why we chose the Cesarean. But then again, what if? What if I would have just stuck with it? What if I would have just pushed a little longer? It kills me. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, I know. Those “what if‘s”, they can really get to us. It is hard not to ask the “what if‘s”. I feel like we start the “what if‘s” before we even go into labor. Even in the decision to VBAC or to CBAC, “What if I do this? What if I could deliver vaginally? What if I have something bad happen?” You know, there are just those “what if‘s”. It’s personally something so hard to get through. Grace: Yeah. I think at the end of the day, I was like, “I really want this VBAC, but I really want my baby here healthy more.” It’s putting my wants aside for, “Yeah, I would love the VBAC, but I really would love my baby to be here now, healthily instead.” Meagan: Mhmm. Yeah, definitely. Okay, question number two is: What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through or have worked through post-birth? Grace: I think we just did that. Meagan: See? This is what the thing is. I do the wrong question every time. Nope. It’s number three. It’s: What is something positive or uplifting you have found in your story? I am just listening to the answer and not knowing what the next question is. Julie: I know, we just get so lost in all of these amazing answers. Meagan: I’m just relating, yes. Grace: My whole journey this pregnancy, leading up to even getting pregnant and then my whole pregnancy, I just felt empowered. I was self-advocating. I researched a ton. With my first pregnancy, I was under the care of doctors and I just naïvely trusted them. They said to do this and I’m like, “Well, they are the experts. Okay.” This time, I really educated myself. I knew what my rights were and what I could get. I switched to a midwife. I hired a doula. I went to a different hospital. I did literally all of the things that I could do and that were there for me. Even though I ended up with a CBAC like I said, it was healing for me and I felt confident that I exhausted all my options. I left no stone unturned so to say in what I could have done. So, I was proud of myself for all of those things. Meagan: You should be. Grace: Thank you. Julie: I think it’s great that you can look back on your birth like that and feel confident in your choices. That’s really important. Grace: Yeah, for sure. Julie: Alright, last question. Anything else you want people to know? Grace: I think the biggest thing is that we can still love our babies unconditionally and yet still yearn for a certain birth story. I think some other women have said, people always say, “Well, at least the baby is healthy.” Yeah, of course. That should just not be not even said. That is number one for everybody. Mom and baby, yes. Number one. That should just be taken off the table. But, vaginal births have been part of women forever and ever. That is what we are “made to do”. I am saying these things with air quotes. So I just feel like, we can love our kids no matter what and we can still love to have a certain birth. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. You guys, so many incredible words and thoughts. I feel like, Julie, if you have been writing these down, we’ve got a lot of amazing Instagram ( https://www.instagram.com/thevbaclink/?hl=en ) posts. Julie: Oh yes, yes. There were a lot. We want to wrap it up. Unfortunately, we have to go. I really wish we could just sit and talk with you ladies all day. I just love you guys so much. VBAC and CBAC birth plans I want to close it off because I want to take it back to something that Anne said. When you interview your provider for your VBAC, don’t just think about how they will support you through a VBAC. Consider how they will support you if things don’t go the way you want and if you end up with a repeat Cesarean. Maybe start asking those questions too, while you are talking about your birth plan and you’re preparing for your VBAC. Talk about a back-up Cesarean plan with them. What happens if something comes up and a Cesarean becomes necessary? Then how are you going to be supported? You might not like their answers, but you might feel just as supported as you are when they are talking about your VBAC preparation. And so, I just wanted to-- I just really loved that when you said that, Anne. Like I said, I have lots of notes from all you others too. But, I just really want to emphasize that to close this off because sometimes births don’t go the way you planned. In fact, I would say, every birth doesn’t go as planned. Sometimes it’s in really little, teeny ways, but sometimes it’s in really big ways. Having support all along the way, no matter how it goes is very, very important. I encourage you, you listeners right now, to get educated about repeat Cesareans, to know the reasons why they may be necessary, and to have those conversations with your provider along the way. Closing Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share ( http://www.thevbaclink.com/share ) and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com ( http://www.thevbaclink.com ). Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy