Podcasts about ECV

El debate alrededor de la inteligencia artificial se instala en las escuelas de diseño, animación y fotografía de París. De la productividad a la sensibilidad artística, la comunidad educativa busca respuestas y garantías en cuanto a las salidas profesionales. ChatGPT, Midjourney y Firefly son solo algunos de los muchos nombres comerciales de la inteligencia artificial generativa (IAG), una tecnología que se nutre de datos, textos e imágenes para entrenar sus algoritmos y, a su vez, producir nuevos contenidos escritos y audiovisuales. Aunque el origen de la IA generativa se remonta a varias décadas atrás, el desarrollo exponencial durante los últimos años explica el debate acerca de sus límites éticos, su impacto ecológico y la creciente preocupación por su falta de regulación. Y también sobre la banalización del arte y el trabajo creativo.“Es un insulto a la vía misma”, declaró Hayao Miyazaki, fundador del famoso estudio de animación Studio Ghibli, tras la ola de imágenes inspiradas en el estilo de sus películas creadas con inteligencia artificial. Una opinión compartida por un sector de los estudiantes que aspiran a trabajar en dicha industria.Foco en la propiedad intelectual“Es regurgitar un montón de imágenes hechas por artistas a los que no han pedido su consentimiento. No tiene sentido”, se queja Lianne, estudiante en cine de animación en la escuela de Gobelins París. "Es ilegal, no pagan por los derechos de autor, ¡es un robo!", añade su compañera Laura. Sin una delimitación clara, la cuestión de la autoría sigue siendo confusa.“Es algo cada vez más presente en nuestro día a día y creo que irá a más”, opina Louane, que también cursa cine de animación en Gobelins. Prefiere no pensar en la inteligencia artificial porque le produce cierto estrés, “pero es verdad que hay que tenerlo en cuenta”, admite. “Si hacemos una formación tan reconocida como ésta es para encontrar trabajo después. Si la IA nos lo quita, es estúpido hacerla”, concluye.El diseño gráfico, ¿en peligro?Difícil obviar la cuestión. Según el último Informe sobre el Futuro de los Empleos del Foro Económico Mundial, publicado en enero de 2025, la automatización que la IA trae consigo supondrá la destrucción de 92 millones de puestos de trabajo para 2030, mientras que creará otros 170 millones. Entre las profesiones con una rápida tendencia de declive, según este informe, está el diseño gráfico.“Una compañera de trabajo que no tenía estudios en este ámbito hizo un logo con ChatGPT y pensó que así ya podría ser grafista. Me lo dijo como si mi trabajo fuese un fraude", cuenta Axelle, estudiante de la escuela de diseño LISAA.Útil para ganar tiempoPero la IA no es perfecta. Como cualquier otra herramienta, para los que se sirven de ella como tal, es necesario utilizarla correctamente para obtener los resultados deseados. "Te hace ganar mucho tiempo, pero hay que saber hacer un prompt (la orden que se le da a la IA para que responda con un texto, imagen o vídeo, NDLR) y seleccionar las imágenes correctas. Siempre hará falta un director artístico que la supervise”, asegura Noémie, también de la escuela LISAA. “Tengo un bagaje suficiente como para poder encontrar un empleo. No puedes no usarla solo por tener miedo a que te quite el trabajo."Algunos la usan porque la ven como una herramienta, otros la rechazan por motivos éticos o ecológicos, pero el debate alrededor de la inteligencia artificial roza incluso lo filosófico. "Mientras no tengas demasiado apego a las herramientas y mantengas tu independencia y tus ideas, me parece bien", dice Tony, alumno de diseño gráfico y animación en la escuela ECV, aventurándose a hacer el paralelismo con la película “Her” (Spike Jonze, 2013), donde el personaje interpretado por Joaquín Phoenix se enamora de una inteligencia artificial.“En la escuela usamos la IA para generar storyboards que luego convertimos en secuencias de video.”. Para él, la utilidad está en la fase de preproducción de los proyectos, donde asegura que le permite avanzar mucho más rápido.Priorizar la creatividad y la sensibilidadEl grado de permisión e incorporación de la IAG en los programas educativos depende de cada escuela, de cada departamento y de cada docente. “Nosotros incorporamos la IA desde el primer año de la formación. Los alumnos aprenden técnicas de fotografía analógica y digital, pero también el tratamiento de sus fotos con inteligencia artificial”, explica Yann Philippe, enseñante de fotografía y vídeo en Gobelins."No sentimos que nuestro trabajo esté directamente amenazado por la IA y creemos que, con un buen uso e inteligencia, puede potenciar la creatividad de algunos alumnos”. Son sorprendentemente los que ingresan con amplios conocimientos de IA generativa los menos interesados en trabajar con ella y más con el formato analógico y los procesos tradicionales, a diferencia de quienes no la han utilizado aún. “De todas formas, las herramientas avanzan a tal velocidad que cuando terminamos de preparar los cursos, ya están obsoletas."“Hice el curso de Midjourney de Gobelins, pero me interesa más la autenticidad”, confiesa Axel, alumno de fotografía, con su cámara Leica analógica colgada del hombro. “Con IA o sin IA, lo importante es la motivación y la sensibilidad que cada artista pone en sus proyectos.” Este precisamente lo que Yann Philippe busca desarrollar porque considera que “es ahí donde está su valor añadido”.La inteligencia artificial generativa avanza más rápido que el ritmo al que se da respuesta a las dudas y preguntas que ésta plantea, y se exige un marco normativo a la altura de los retos que conlleva. La Ley de Inteligencia Artificial de la Unión Europea, en vigor desde el 1 de agosto de 2024, es un primer paso, pero no parece suficiente. En el ámbito educativo, la UNESCO ha realizado una llamada urgente a los gobiernos de todo el mundo para que la regulen de manera eficaz.

Episode 64 is shared by Amber who is a mum to two homebirth babies. Today she shares the fantastic story of the birth of Delilah at 42 + 5 weeks at home, and then the birth of Bette, who was a planned homebirth with midwives, but ended up being an accidental freebirth at home  as the midwives didn't make it in time! We also chat about family centred birth and changing the narrative around homebirth and birth. ResourcesEvidence on post dates baby written by Dr Rachel ReedOP baby written by Dr Rachel ReedA survey of Australian women's digital media usage in pregnancy and labour and birth (2023, journal article) ECV (external cephalic version) for breech babyJust Another Day in a Woman's Life?Women's Long-Term Perceptions of Their FirstBirth Experience. Part I (older article from 1991 but still relevent I think) - click on the PDF download for the full text The meaning of a very positive birth experience: focus groups discussions with women (2015)Support the showConnect with me, Elsie, the host :) www.birthingathome.com.au @birthingathome_apodcast@homebirth.doula_birthingathome birthingathome.apodcast@gmail.com

Julia knew something was off during her first pregnancy and birth experience. She knew she didn't feel right about consenting to a Cesarean, but it wasn't until she started diving into research that she realized how much her care lacked informed consent. She discovered options that should have been offered to her that never were.Julia's research led her to choosing the midwifery model of care in a home birth setting. She felt in control of her experience and free to birth the way she felt she needed to. Meagan and Julia discuss stats on uterine rupture, stillbirth, continuous fetal monitoring, induction, due dates, and how our birthing culture can highly influence what we think is safe versus what scientific evidence actually tells us. Evidence-Based Birth: The Evidence on Due DatesThe Business of Being BornNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello. Women of Strength I am so excited for today's guest. Our friend, Julia, is from Texas. She is a wife and a stay-at-home mother living in, it Spring, Texas, Julia?Julia: Spring, Texas.Meagan: Close to Houston, yes, with her two sons. And she has had a Cesarean and then an HBAC. We get a lot of questions in our inbox every day, but a really common question is dates. "Hey, I'm 40 weeks. My doctor is telling me I had to have my baby by tomorrow or even approaching 39 weeks." People are being told they have to have their babies or really bad things will happen. And Julia's story is proof that you don't have to have a baby by 40 weeks or 41 weeks, would you say? Almost 42 weeks is what you were. So we are excited to hear this story. And I know if you are one that goes past your due date and you're getting that pressure, you're definitely gonna wanna listen. Julia: Thank you so much for having me, Meagan, I'm really, really happy to be here.Meagan: I'm so happy that you are here. I would just love to have you share your stories.Julia: Okay, so my firstborn, he came during the height of the COVID pandemic. It was August 2020.I just saw my OB who I had been seeing for regular gynecology visits. And from the very first appointment, it just, I just kind of got an off feeling. She had seen a small subchorionic hematoma on my ultrasound at my very first appointment at eight weeks. And she just told me, "Don't Google this. It's going to scare you." She basically just said, "Just enjoy being pregnant now because when you come back next week, you may not be." So as a first-time mom, it was obviously pretty upsetting and caused a lot of anxiety. When I went back for my next appointment, she just kind of shrugged it off after she saw the ultrasound. She just said, "It cleared up on its own." There really wasn't any explanation of how it resolved.But that being said, that start to my prenatal care kind of set the tone for the rest of that pregnancy and birth. From then on there was just a lot of fear-mongering going on, and a lot of problems were brought up that really never turned out to be an issue. Around 20 weeks at the anatomy scan, they saw that my son was in the bottom 10th percentile.She had said that she classified that as IUGR, intrauterine growth restriction. We had a lot of extra testing done. Everything was normal. I felt confident and very comfortable just waiting it out. And that really wasn't what she wanted.Actually, starting around 35 weeks, she had started talking about delivering early. I was pressured at each appointment by my OB and the nurses to stay that day and deliver solely because of his size, even though everything was looking great on the monitors. Keep in mind, you know, during COVID, I wasn't able to have my husband or anyone with me during these appointments. And so just being asked that question each time I came in as a first-time mom by myself was just really hard and made me second guess a lot of things and second guess my intuition. I had explained that, "I think he's just a small baby. He needs more time to grow."She basically just said at my 38-week appointment if I didn't deliver that day, it would not be her fault if my baby died and that she or the hospital was--Meagan: What?! Julie: Right?Meagan: She said that she or the hospital, if I walk out that day, they're not liable if something happens because I'm going against her recommendations. I was even seeing a high-risk doctor as well at that point. And even he was saying, "Everything's looking fine. There's no problem with waiting if you want to."The reason she wanted to schedule the C-section because he was breech. I knew that I wasn't even going to have the opportunity to go into spontaneous labor. There were really no alternatives presented at the time. I knew nothing about out-of-hospital birth or about midwives. She offered an ECV, but she said she didn't recommend it because of his size.She didn't really explain why. So I just kind of felt backed into a corner. I remember I had left the office that day at 38 weeks and called my husband immediately and explained what she had said. We felt like, "Okay, well, I guess, we obviously don't want our baby to die, so maybe we need to just stay." I remember pushing my gut feeling aside the whole time. As they were prepping me, I just felt, This isn't right." I wanted to give my baby more time to grow and also to flip so that I wouldn't be backed into a C-section. Had I known then what I know now, I definitely would have opted for a home birth with my midwife who's trained in breach delivery.Just at the time with COVID, I didn't have the resources or the information, so we went through with the C-section that ended in a four-day hospital stay. I didn't sleep at all. Meagan, I'm not even kidding you. I did not sleep those four days. The nurses were really concerned about the baby's size, even though he was growing. He was actually back to his birth weight by the time we were discharged.But I'll never forget this one-Meagan: That's quick!Julie: Right? I know. And so there was so much fear-mongering, so much uncertainty by medical staff, despite how great my baby was doing. And I remember this nurse frantically coming into the room just a few hours after my C-section with this Medella hospital-grade pump. She was just like, "You need to start pumping now on top of breastfeeding because your baby's small. He's not going to grow."It just kind of left me feeling like, I feel confident in what I'm doing, but now all these medical professionals are telling me like, I'm in danger, my baby's in danger. It triggered a lot of feelings of postpartum anxiety. I really struggled that first year. And so it wasn't a very good experience.I just felt like my power had been taken away in the birthing process and felt defeated and like I didn't have a say for my first birth.Meagan: Yeah, I was just listening to an episode the other day, not on our podcast, on another podcast about that experience after baby is born and that postpartum within the hospital and how crazy it is that sleep is one of the best things we can get when it comes to energy, milk production, getting our babies fed and helping them grow, and doing all these things. But then we're not allowed that time. And then on top of it, it's all the fear-mongering and the doubt when it's like we should be being built up like, "Oh my gosh, look how good you're doing. Look how good this baby's doing. Look how good you're doing. Let's keep doing this." Instead of making you doubt that what you're doing isn't good enough and not letting you sleep and doing all these things. It's just weird to me. It doesn't make sense.Julia: Right, and as a first-time mom, you're just like, okay, they know what's best, obviously. I'm going to listen to them and what do I know about birth? They're the doctors. But yeah, it was just really eye-opening, and I really knew I wanted a completely different experience the next time around.Meagan: Yeah, I don't blame you. I don't blame you for wanting a different experience.Julia: So after I had my C section, pretty soon after that, I started digging and doing a lot of research and realized I felt really cheated by the lack of informed consent. I had mentioned that my doctor just had said, "You need a C-section because he's breech."I had no idea that there were even midwives and out-of-hospital birth options where they delivered breech vaginally and not only that, but were highly trained and qualified to do so. I had no idea that in other parts of the world of similar economic status to the US that they were routinely delivering breech babies vaginally with better outcomes than we have here in the US hospitals. So I really didn't feel like there was informed consent there. Even the fact that she didn't even want to try the ECV was upsetting to me. I just felt like I really wish I would have done more research at the time. But I just put all my energy into this next birth. I knew even before I got pregnant that I wanted a VBAC.Pretty early on in the process of my research, I became really fascinated with physiological birth and I knew that I really wanted to experience that. For someone who may not be familiar with that term, physiological birth is natural unmedicated childbirth with no intervention unless medically necessary. It sees birth as a safe biological function rather than a medical event or something that that's inherently dangerous which is how I felt I was treated my whole first pregnancy and birth. I felt like a walking hazard, to be honest, when in reality I was an extremely healthy 25-year-old, first-time mom with a healthy baby with no issues. So the fact that I was gaslit into thinking there was a lot of danger was sad. So I knew that for my next birth I wanted to do a physiological birth and I knew that it would kind of be a fight to achieve in the hospital. I did a lot of research, I watched The Business of Being Born. I read a lot of natural childbirth books. I also knew that on top of the regular hospital policies, I would have some excess restrictions because of the fact that I was a VBAC.Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Julia: I did go back to that same OB at first. I presented my birth plan early on to her and it included things like I didn't want an IV. I wanted freedom to eat or drink. I didn't want any drugs whatsoever for pain relief. I didn't want them pushing an epidural. I would have liked a water birth, but I knew that wouldn't have been possible in the hospital. But I at least would have liked water immersion in labor, minimal cervical checks. I wanted to go into spontaneous labor. I wanted no coached pushing and fully delayed cord clamping.I could tell, right away she was more so just VBAC-tolerant rather than supportive. She really used a lot of fear-mongering. Right away she mentioned the uterine rupture risk. She had said, I think she had said she had just had a mom die from a VBAC not too long ago.Meagan: Goodness. Holy moly.Julia: Without any explanation. Who knows where she was going with that? But she had also said, it may be better to just have a repeat C-section because with the risk of rupture, you may need a hysterectomy after giving birth. She commonly used the word TOLAC which also I didn't really like. I didn't want to feel like I was having to try. I felt like I'm planning a VBAC. I don't need to try for it. It is what it is. I wanted someone to encourage me. She really also highly, highly recommended I got an epidural because she said, "Well, with your increased risk of rupture, if something should happen, then they're just gonna have to knock me out."She also said, "Unmedicated moms tear the worst," which was not at all the case for me. She was saying that because it hurts so bad that you just can't control your pushing. I knew all of this was not true. I was kind of in a funny position because I didn't want to be fighting with her, but I knew the evidence in the back of my mind and all of that scary language. I knew it was not evidence-based. I really wanted someone on my team who was really going to believe in me, who knew the evidence, and who believed in my ability to have a VBAC.  I didn't want to spend all of my energy and labor fighting for this VBAC and for this birth experience that I knew was possible and that I knew that I deserved.My heart really had always deep down been set on a home birth from the very beginning. I loved watching home birth videos and hearing positive home birth stories. I just loved everything about it and also about the midwifery model of care and how much more comprehensive that was. I had heard about a local group of midwives on a Facebook group that I'm in for holistic moms in my area. I found out that this group of midwives offered a HypnoBirthing class. So my husband and I signed up for that. We took the six-week course and we just never looked back after that. We knew that a home birth VBAC would be the way to go. I felt deep in my heart confident about it and that's really what I wanted. I just knew I had found my dream birth team.My midwife was just amazing and I just really couldn't imagine birthing anywhere other than in my own home with her and my husband by my side and someone that didn't look at me differently because of my previous Cesarean.Meagan: Right. And I love that you just pointed that out. Someone who didn't look at me differently because of my previous Cesarean. This is the problem, not the problem. It's one of one of the many problems when it comes to providers looking at VBAC moms. We talk about this in our VBAC course. We should just be someone going in and having a baby, but we are not viewed that way. And it's extremely frustrating because not only do they not view us that way, they make us know and feel that they don't view us that way.Julia: Right, right.Meagan: It's just, it feels crummy.Julia: Absolutely. We knew we were making the right decision. I was really excited about the whole thing. That was another thing that I talked to my OB about. I was like, "I'm excited to be in labor. I want to welcome all these sensations of birth. I know it's going to be hard work, but that experience means something to me and I want that." And she had said, "Well, if you ask other moms who had been through labor, they would say it's painful, it's hard." She was basically saying, I shouldn't want this birth experience. I just didn't want to be fighting that or dealing with someone who had this view on birth that it's just this dangerous medical event. I didn't want to go through feeling defeated like I did last time.Meagan: Absolutely. Good for you for recognizing that and then doing what you needed to do to not have that experience.Julia: Right? Thank you.So I had mentioned that I really wanted to go into spontaneous labor. I didn't want to be induced at all. That's another reason why I'm so thankful that I was with my midwife because I went almost all the way to 43 weeks pregnant. I went into labor at 42 weeks and 5 days in the middle of the night. Had I had been with my OB, I'm positive that I would have had to deliver much earlier and I would have probably been scheduled for a repeat C-section. So I'm just really happy that I was with my midwife and I felt really confident about waiting. I had NSTs and BPPs, non-stress tests and biophysical profiles done daily starting at 42 weeks just to monitor baby's health and to make sure that everything is normal and it was.So we just opted to wait for spontaneous labor. I'm really glad that I did so that I could go through with the home birth.Meagan: Absolutely. What you were saying, yeah, I know I probably would have been scheduled Cesarean and definitely would have been pressured. I mean, even if you would have said no, the pressure would have been thick, especially going over 41 weeks.Julia: Right.Meagan: And then, let alone 42.Julia: Right. Yeah. The pressure was there. Everyone was well intentioned, asking, "Have you had your baby yet?" But I was getting these questions as early as like 38 weeks, 39 weeks. I'm like, "Whoa, I'm not even at my due date yet."Everyone was just excited to meet the baby and had friends asking about that. But my immediate family was so supportive and I'm so, so happy that I had that support because just feeling that from my midwife and from my parents and my husband, knowing that they all really believed in me and we were confident with waiting. As long as everything looked good with baby, that was really what was most important. So I just kind of tuned everything else out and tried to relax as much as possible.We just went out to dinner a few times and cherished these last couple weeks as a family of three. It finally happened in the middle of the night at 42 weeks and 5 days. I remember when the contractions were first starting. I'd had some contractions on and off for the past few weeks, but nothing consistent. So I just kind of thought, okay, well, this is just some Braxton Hicks or something like that.I noticed that around 2:00 AM, they started getting more consistent. I told my husband and they were getting more intense and a little closer together. We called our midwife around 6:00 AM and she was like, "Yeah. Sounds like you're in early labor." I was just so, so happy and grateful to be in labor.Yes, it was hard work, but I can honestly say I really enjoyed the experience. I thought it was extremely empowering. I just remember thanking God through the surges. We called them surges in HypnoBirthing. Just knowing the awesome work that my body was doing from within to give birth to my baby. I really, really enjoyed the freedom of just being able to eat and drink in labor freely wherever I wanted in my home without any restricting policies. I wasn't tethered to any IVs or monitors. I think that's another thing. In the hospital, that would have added anxiety seeing the monitor constantly. We know that continuous fetal monitoring isn't really evidence-based and leads to more C-sections. I knew in the hospital that would have been something that would have been required so I'm really glad that that wasn't the case at home. I just think the freedom and the autonomy is really what helped my labor to progress so smoothly without any complications.There weren't people coming in and out of my room, and I just really enjoyed the whole experience. Listening to birth affirmations helped me. I was swaying through the surges. My husband had helped me put up twinkle fairy lights in our room, and we had some flickering votive candles on my dresser. It just created this really nice ambiance and a calming atmosphere.It just felt so good to know that my husband really, truly believed in my ability to do this. I mean, I really have to give him a shout-out because he was right there with me not only through all of labor, but when I knew that I wanted a VBAC from the very beginning, he was right there with me reading all the natural childbirth books, doing all the research on VBAC with me.He was just really supportive. That's something I would say is very important for a VBAC mom is to have a support person who's not just present, but truly supportive of you and knows what you're going to need and does the work with you ahead of time so that you can just focus on laboring and they can be there to make sure you have water, and you're fed if you're hungry, so I was really blessed to have him and to have his full support.Meagan: Absolutely.My husband told me, he said, "I just don't understand." He just didn't understand. I get that he didn't understand, but I love hearing this where we're learning together. I want to say to couples or to partners, even if you don't understand, understand and trust that it's important to your partner and be there for them because, like you were saying, it can make such a big impact in the way you feel, the way you view your birth, and your overall experience.Julia: Right. No, and that's so true because I feel like, most people's support person is their husband, and a lot of men feel like maybe they can't really help as much or just say, "Well, the doctor knows what to do. I'm just here, like, for emotional support."But it's so much more than that. My husband learned ahead of time how to do counter pressure, and I actually really didn't need it. I think he had done it once, but what really helped me the most was just leaning on him. I did that most of the time. Just leaning into him, and letting him support my weight. He also did a really great job of reminding me to just focus on my breathing techniques and just relaxing between the surges.All of those natural pain relief remedies were really, really helpful. I bought a TENS machine and a heating pad, but I ended up not needing any of those.Meagan: But you at least were prepared with them.Julia: I was. Yeah, I was definitely prepared. We also had hung up all my birth affirmations. We had done a lot of meditation and visualization exercises throughout pregnancy, and so I used some of those as well. He was really great at reminding me just saying, "I love you. You're doing it. You're doing a great job." That was very helpful just feeling him there.Meagan: Yeah, absolutely.So with postpartum, this is also another common question. Is it better postpartum from my Cesarean versus my VBAC? What would you say? And any tips that you have for healing through your VBAC?Julia: Yeah, so my postpartum experience this time around is so much better. It's a night and day difference, not just physically healing like that. My VBAC is nothing compared to the C section. I think a lot of people fail to realize that a C-section is major, major abdominal surgery. Anyone else who had major abdominal surgery would be sent home to be on bed rest for weeks and you have to care for a newborn on top of that. With my C-section, I was a first-time mom. It was so overwhelming. Everything was new to me. I had a lot of pain with breastfeeding at first. I attribute a lot of that to the nurses making me pump. I was never sized for flanges. I just used the ones that came with the Medella and they weren't sized to me.I think that caused a lot of nipple damage. I ended up getting mastitis at two weeks postpartum the first time around and had to go back into the hospital for that and just had so much pain with latching that I ended up exclusively pumping for my son. I'm really proud because I was able to do that for two years, so he had breastmilk for two years.Meagan: That is a commitment.Julia: Yes, it was such a commitment. But I'm really, really happy that I did it and it was worth it to me. I just didn't want that negative experience of the birth and all that damage that happened early on from the pump to affect this because I really knew I wanted to breastfeed, and I was able to do it with exclusive pumping.And then this time around, it was just so much better. Breastfeeding is going great, and I've seen some research on that too. When you have a positive birth experience, that can also affect breastfeeding and even the first latch and everything.Just your emotions surrounding postpartum, when you go through something like that and you feel supported and in charge of your birth, you go into motherhood feeling the same way.Meagan: Yeah.Julia: I can't explain how much better it is this time around. That's why I really encourage all moms to know that you can do your own research and especially VBAC moms, there's so much out there about uterine rupture, and when you look at the relative risk versus the absolute risk, these are the kinds of things that you may not know to do because your doctor is just going to present the statistics one way. But we know that the way that those statistics are presented really greatly impacts what decision you make. And it's important to understand that.And so I would say my biggest tip for VBAC moms is to just really do your own research and find a provider who you feel like in your gut is going to be there for you, and is going to really believe in you. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's what I was looking for with my crazy interview process was someone who I didn't just think would be there to be there, but be there to support me and really root for me and really be on my team, not just be there. I just think it makes such a big, big difference. And kind of going away from provider but coming into due dates and waiting longer. When I say longer, past the traditional 39 to 41 weeks. Now you were mentioning, people were even saying at 38 weeks, "Hey, have you had your baby? When are you gonna have your baby?" Oh my gosh. And these people, most of the time, I would say 99% of the time, they really just are excited for you to have your baby. And so if you're listening and maybe you have this situation, do say things like, "Hey, oh my gosh, I'm just so excited for you," not like, "When are you going toa have this baby?" Because it does start taking a toll sometimes on mom's mental health at the end.I wanted to also talk a little bit about due dates because Evidence Based Birth-- Rebecca Dekker, she's incredible. If you guys don't know them yet, go check out Evidence Based Birth. They've got a lot of really great blogs. But there is just a little part of a large blog that I wanted to read about and her little bullet point says, "Is the traditional due date really your due date?" I think this just fits so well here because you were 42 weeks and which day again?Julia: 42 weeks and 5 days.Meagan: 5 days, that's what I was thinking. So 42 weeks and 5 days. So obviously your traditional due date that you were given weeks before wasn't really true. Right? So it says, "Based on the best evidence, there is no such thing as an exact due date, and the estimated due date of 40 weeks is not accurate. Instead, it would be more appropriate to say that there is a normal range of time in which most people give birth. About half of all pregnant people will go into labor on their own by 40 weeks and 5 days for first-time mothers or 40 weeks and 3 days for mothers who have given birth before. The other half will not." Then it says, "Are there some things that can make your pregnancy longer? By far, the most important predictor of a longer pregnancy is family history of long pregnancies, including your own personal history, your mother, your sisters, etc. and the history of the baby's biological father's family history as well." In 2013, there was a large study that was looked at with more than 475,000 Swedish births, most of which were dated with an ultrasound before 20 weeks in that they found that genetics had an increasingly strong influence on your chance of giving birth after 42 weeks. Okay, there's so much more you guys. It talks about if you've had a post-term birth before, you have a 4.4 times more likely chance of having another post-term, if I can read, with the same partner. If you've had post-term birth before, then you switch partners, you have 3.4 times the chance of having another post- term birth with your new partner. And if your sister had a post-term birth, you have a 1.8 times the chance of having a post-term birth. You guys, it goes on and on and on. This is such a great article and eye opening in my opinion. I'm going to attach it in the show notes and it does continue to go on for risk for mothers, risk for infants.What about stillbirth? We know that is a huge topic when it comes to going past your due date just like uterine rupture is a huge topic for VBAC. I feel like when due dates come in, it's stillbirth. And she actually says that. It says up until the 1980s, some research thought that the risk of stillbirth past 41 to 42 weeks was similar to the risk of stillbirth earlier. She's going to go back and talk with how it definitely is a different measurement here, but the stats are there. The evidence is there. But look at you. You went. You trusted your body. You went with your body. You did what you needed to do to take extra precautions and had a beautiful, beautiful experience.Julia: Yeah, I'm really happy that I did trust my intuition and I did the research. All those things that you were talking about like risk of stillbirth and everything that you hear, there's a common thing that goes around social media like, "Oh, nothing good happens past 40 weeks." But that's just not the case.If you look at other countries that are like very similar in economic status to us in the US, due dates are calculated differently everywhere, so who's to say that this mythical 40-week due date is the end all be all? A lot of other countries won't even induce prior to 42 weeks unless there's like an issue. In the US, we see so many people routinely getting induced at 39 weeks, so I just think's it's really a cultural thing, so we we come to believe that it's the safest thing.But when you step back and do your own research, you can get a full picture and you can see, why are we inducing without any, any contraindication? Like why are people being presented Cesarean section as if it's just a minor procedure?I feel like in the Business of Being Born documentary, if you haven't seen it, I would highly recommend everybody watching it really, because it shows how C-sections have become so much more popular and the reasons why they think that is and just the flaws in the medical system. It was just really eye opening and really encouraged me on my VBAC journey. It gave me a lot of tips and information and led me to find other resources. VBAC Facts was another really great thing that I referenced a lot. Evidence Based Birth like you had mentioned, and then of course, listening to The VBAC Link Podcast and podcasts of moms who have really positive VBAC stories because you only hear the negative a lot of the time.With birth in general, I feel like, it's just presented as such a scary thing. I really want to encourage women to know that birth is made to be this way. It doesn't have to be some scary out of control thing where you're at the mercy of a doctor or a provider telling you when to push or telling you to do something that you don't feel comfortable doing. When we trust nature and we surrender to the power of labor, it's really sacred. It's beautiful. It's normal, and most of all, it's safe in most cases.We don't have to fight it or medicalize it. And in the words of Ricky Lake, who gave birth in her bathtub in that stellar documentary Business of Being Born, she had said, "Birth is not an illness. It's not something that needed to be numbed. It needed to be experienced." For anyone who's planning or would like to plan an unmedicated birth, you can get a lot of resistance or people who don't understand. But I really encourage you to know that you can do it, that women have been doing it for generations. And just keep those affirmations in your mind and believe in yourself. You have to do that.Meagan: Exactly. I love that you pointed that out. There are so many times that we do treat birth as this medical event, this illness, this problem, and it's just not. It's not. It's not. I don't know what else to say. It is not. And we have to change our view. And just like you were re saying, it's a cultural thing. We have to change or it's just not going to get better. It could get worse. We're seeing the Cesarean rate. We're seeing these things happen. And there's a problem. There's a problem out there. We have to start stepping back and realizing that birth is not that medical event and we can trust this process. And our bodies were meant to do this. And they do it every day. Every day, all over the world. Every single day, a baby is born, probably thousands. I don't even know the exact number. But we can do this. We don't have to, we don't have to treat it like that.Julia: Right. That's what I really liked about the midwifery model of care. It was just so different to my experience with, with my OB. I think a lot of people fail to realize that in most other parts of the world, low-risk women are attended by midwives and the obstetricians are there to take care of the percentage of women who are having issues. With home birth, you can think, oh well, what if something goes wrong and you're not in the hospital setting?But what a lot of people don't realize is that oftentimes these interventions that are routinely done in the hospital that most of the time they don't even ask for permission to do, or they present it in a way that they're helping you actually lead to some of these devastating consequences, like low-risk women going in and then ending up with a C-section for reasons that they often can't even understand.And so that's something that I really feel passionately about is just encouraging women to advocate for yourself and to know ahead of time, what is routine and why are they offering this? Is this for your benefit or for the doctor's benefit? With all these risks of these different things that can happen, like Pitocin, which is commonly used to induce or augment labor, you might not need that. Or did you know that if they started that you can ask for them to shut it off?You should be in charge of your birth. When you're in that setting, it can be intimidating and you might feel like you don't have a voice, especially when you're already in a vulnerable position in labor. So I was really confident with my midwives' ability to look out for anything that may go wrong. But I love her hands-off approach. She didn't intervene. She just stood back and was just there to witness. There was no telling me when to push. I was able to experience the fetal ejection reflex which was really cool. I just felt my body pushing for me and surrendered to that. She was there to make sure that everything was going smoothly. I was the one who picked my baby up out of the water and she just stood back while my husband and my baby and I met each other for the first time. It was just all really special. That's something I want to say. With the risk of uterine rupture that you hear about with VBAC, that wasn't even in my mind. I didn't have someone there constantly telling me, "Oh, well, we're seeing this on the monitor," or scaring me with the very, very slim chance of rupture.Meagan: Exactly. Oh, so many good tips, such a great story. I am just so grateful that you are here today sharing it with us.Julia: I'm really grateful to be here and to share my story with everybody.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

What are the typical differences between hospital OB care and home birth midwifery care? Throughout her VBAC prep, Gesa was able to directly compare the two side by side. She was planning a home birth with a midwife but continued to see her OB at the hospital for the insurance benefits. Some differences she noted: Her OB used ultrasound to determine baby's position. Her midwife palpated her belly.Her midwife ran a blood test to check iron levels, and then suggested an iron supplement. Her OB did not track iron.OB visits were typically a few minutes long. Visits with her midwife were an hour or longer in her home. The hospital required cervical checks, laboring in a mask, continuous monitoring, and only allowed one support person. The way Gesa navigated her care is so inspiring. Her midwife was hands-on during pregnancy in all of the best ways and just as hands-off during birth to let the physiological process take over. Gesa's story is exactly why we love HBAC so much!Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie:  Good morning, Women of Strength. I am really excited to be back here with you. This is Julie, and it is my first official episode back doing regular episodes. Just like we talked about a couple of weeks ago, I'm going to be doing– or was it last week? I can't remember what week it is. But we are going to be doing every other episode alternating between me and Meagan for the most part. I'm really excited to be back here. We have a really special guest with us today. But before we get into that, I want to say that I just got back from South Korea two weeks ago. No, two days ago. If you haven't listened to Paige's episode for her maternal assisted C-section, go listen to the episode that launched on December 2nd. I do believe it was maybe episode 357. Me and Paige are talking and sharing her story. I am literally so jet-lagged right now. It is going to be a morning for me for sure. If I'm a little clunkier than usual or my brain doesn't work just right, just be a little patient with me, please, because the jet lag is absolutely real. Before we do get started though and introduce our guest, I want to read a review. Meagan sent me a review this morning, and I think it's really interesting because she sent me this review this morning. It's a 1-star review, and you might be curious as to why I'm choosing to read a 1-star review, but I'll tell you a little bit more afterward why I picked that. This one is on Apple Podcasts. This person said, “Listened to 10 episodes, and found that the stories they choose to share are usually always the same with a twist. Didn't find any episodes that said ‘A C-section saved me and my baby's life' so lots of bias and fear-mongering from people who are selling female empowerment. Maybe I'm missing the episode where the hosts say that sometimes it's okay to have a C-section. With all of these birth stories, you would think I could relate with one, but I find that the anecdotes shared in this podcast are a really easy way to avoid talking about women who are actually statistical outliers.” I think that episode is really interesting. First of all, I appreciate everybody's views and perspectives. But also, I think that review is a little bit interesting because she said she has listened to 10 episodes. I'm just assuming it's a she. Maybe that's not the right way to do that. She said she has only listened to 10 episodes. It's interesting because I wonder what 10 she picked. I feel like, isn't it maybe a sign that all of the stories are similar because our healthcare system needs a lot of work? Clearly, if so many women are having trauma and unnecessary C-sections, isn't that a sign that something needs to change? I know that a lot of us have struggled with unnecessary C-sections and really traumatic treatment in the hospital systems, so I don't know. I wanted to bring that up because first of all, we do have many, many episodes where C-sections were necessary. We've talked a lot about that how C-sections are lifesaving procedures when they are necessary. I feel like we do a pretty good job leaving space for all of the stories, but let me know what you think. Go to the Instagram post today about this episode, and let me know. What do you think? Do you think we do a pretty good job? Do you think we need to have a little bit more talking about C-sections that are actually necessary and lifesaving? Do you think it's unequally represented? Let me know. I want to start a discussion about this. Go ahead and leave a comment. Let's talk about it. But I do know that me and Meagan have been very intentional with sharing a wide variety of stories and outcomes and necessary and unnecessary C-sections. Hopefully, you feel well represented no matter what side of the view you are on. Anyway, we are going to go ahead and get started now. Today, I have a really awesome guest. Her name is Gesa, and she lives in Charleston, South Carolina. She is a mom of two boys. She had a C-section with her first baby. The C-section was because of a breech presentation after she tried everything to turn him. Knowing that she absolutely did not want to have a C-section for her second baby, she navigated the difficult search for a truly supportive provider and ended up having a successful HBAC, or home birth after Cesarean, after having some challenges to get labor started. We are super excited to hear her story. We are going to talk more at the end about how to find the right provider for your birth and your birth after a Cesarean after she goes ahead and shares her story with us. All right, Gesa. Are you there?Gesa: I'm here. Julie:  Yay. I'm so excited to have you with me today. Thank you so much for joining me, and again, for being patient with all of my technical issues this morning. Gesa: Of course. Julie:  But I will go ahead and would like to turn it over to you. You can share your story with us, and yeah. I'm excited to hear it. Gesa: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and share my story. Okay, let's start with my first birth which was my C-section. Everything was going well at the beginning of the pregnancy. I was feeling a little bit nauseous, but overall, feeling well. Then at the anatomy scan, I found out that my baby was breech. I was like, “Wait, what does that mean? What does that mean for birth? What's going on with that?” We had so much time left. The provider was not worried at all. It was around 20 weeks so we thought we had plenty of time at that point. Babies are little. They flip-flop around. I was not concerned at all. As time progressed, he continued to stay breech, so he did not flip on his own. During one of my OB appointments, I was basically told, “Well, if your baby does not turn head down, we're just going to have to have a C-section.” There were really no other options given. At that point, I was actually planning a natural birth at a hospital, so that was not really what I had in mind. We had also taken a Hypnobirthing class which was awesome. We learned so much about birth and pregnancy that I had no idea about. Hearing that I was going to need a C-section if he wasn't going to turn head down was really not what I wanted. I started looking into things I could do to help him turn. I started doing Spinning Babies exercises. I started seeing a chiropractor. I did acupuncture. I even did moxibustion at some point which is really fun. It was a Chinese herb that you burn by your toe, and that's supposed to create fetal movement and help the baby flip which unfortunately did not help. I was out in the pool doing handstands and backflips about every day. I was lying on my ironing board at some point with a bag of frozen peas on my belly. I really tried everything possible to get this baby to flip. Nothing worked. I ended up trying to have the ECV at about 37 weeks. That's the version where they try to manually flip the baby from the outside. She gave it a good try to attempt, and he would not move. It was that his head felt stuck under my ribs. It was very uncomfortable. He was very comfortable where he was at. They had me schedule the C-section which I was really unhappy about, but at that point, I didn't really see any other option. It was about my 37-38 week appointment, and the OB wanted to talk a little bit more about the details of the C-section which made me really emotional because that was not what I wanted. I started crying during the appointment, then the nurse comes in and says, “Hey, we actually forgot to check your blood pressure. Let's do that really quick.” I was like, “I'm sure that's going to be great now that I'm all emotional and crying here.” Of course, the blood pressure was higher than it was supposed to be. The OB started joking, “Oh, maybe we'll have a baby today. Maybe we're just going to do an emergency C-section,” which was not what I wanted to hear at all. It made me even more emotional. I remember sitting in the office crying. Now, I had this high blood pressure. My husband handed me this magazine of puppies or kittens. He said, “Sit here. Chill out and just relax. Look at the kittens. They'll retake your blood pressure, and I'm sure it's going to be fine.” I was like, “Oh my god. Nothing is fine right now.” It ended up coming down a little bit. They still sent me to the hospital for some additional monitoring. It was all good, and we ended up being sent home. But I just felt so unsupported and so unheard in that moment. When I was thinking about the C-section, I was even considering at some point what happens if I just don't show up for my C-section appointment and just waited to see if I'd go into labor? But then I thought, “Maybe an emergency C-section would not be any better than a planned.” I had a friend who had an emergency C-section, and she said that the recovery was really difficult so that's also not really what I wanted. I went ahead and showed up to the hospital for my scheduled C-section at 39 weeks and 1 day. But I was so emotional. I was crying on the way to the hospital. I was crying at the hospital. Everybody was really nice at the hospital, but it was just not what I wanted. The idea of them cutting my body open and removing the baby was just so far away from what I had envisioned. The C-section went well. I really did not have any major issues. But recovery was pretty rough. He was pretty big. He was 9.5 pounds and 21 inches long. Recovery was a little rough. He had also a really difficult time with breastfeeding. He had a really weak suck. I just kept thinking, “What if he was not done cooking? What if they got him too early? He wasn't ready to be born yet.” We found out later that he had a tongue and a lip tie that the hospital failed to diagnose which just made things even more difficult. I, overall, hated my stay at the hospital. I felt like I was not getting any rest at all the whole time I was there. My son didn't like sleeping in the bassinet because why would he? I felt like there were people coming in all of the time and interrupting the little bit of rest that I was trying to get. They were checking on me, checking on the baby, taking temperatures, the photographer, the cleaning people. It was just like people were coming and going. The only person who did not show up who I hoped would show up was the lactation consultant. She did not show up for almost two days which was really, really disappointing. The first few months were pretty hard. I would say they were pretty rough emotionally and physically. When people ask me about my birth, a lot of times, I got comments like, “Well, at least he's healthy” or “Oh, your baby's really big, so it was probably good that you had that C-section.” That really upset me because I understand that it's important for my baby to be healthy. Yes, that is the most important thing. But at the same time, my feelings are valid about it, and my emotions. I felt really robbed of that experience to birth my own child. The fact that I had never felt even a single contraction really was upsetting to me. I felt that my body had really failed me. Yeah. I knew that if I ever were to get pregnant again, I would not want to have another C-section. So let's fast forward to my second pregnancy.I got pregnant again when my son was a little over a year and a half. Like I said, I knew exactly what I didn't want, and that was to have another C-section. When I found out I was pregnant, I pretty much immediately jumped on Facebook group and mom groups trying to do my research and find a truly supportive provider. I did call a birth center here in Charleston, and they told me right away, “We don't do VBACs. Sorry. You can't come here,” which was pretty upsetting because they basically see a VBAC or having had a C-section before is a high-risk pregnancy for your next which really does not make a lot of sense because every pregnancy is different. Just because you had a C-section, there can be so many different reasons. You should not be considered high-risk for your next pregnancy. I found a provider who I thought was VBAC-supportive. It seemed like that was my only option, so I started seeing her. As I was seeing my OB further into my pregnancy, I started asking some questions about birth. I really didn't like some of the answers she had for me. I asked about intermittent monitoring. She said, “No, we can't do that. Hospital policy is that you have to have continuous monitoring.” I didn't love the idea of being strapped to the bed. I wanted to move around freely. That was not going to be an option. I asked about eating. I got the answer, “No, we don't really allow eating while you are in labor. You can have clear fluids.” I was just thinking, “I don't want to eat ice chips while I'm in labor. If I'm hungry, I want to be able to eat.” I asked if I could labor in the bathtub because they did have tubs at the hospital. She said, “No, because of the continuous monitoring, you're not going to be able to get in the tub.” Hearing all of that made me really uncomfortable. Whenever I did ask questions, it almost felt like she didn't really want to talk about it. She didn't really want to talk about my birth plan which was really important to me. Now, at the same time, it was also COVID. I got pregnant with my second literally the week before people started quarantining for COVID. On top of all of these things that I didn't like about the hospital, there were also the COVID restrictions. I had to show up to my appointments in a mask which was totally fine, but the idea of having to labor in a mask made me a little uncomfortable. I was thinking about hiring a doula, and because they were only allowing one support person at the time, that was also not going to be an option. I knew my son wasn't going to be able to see me at the hospital which was something I was really looking forward to. I kept thinking, “Maybe there has to be another option. This can't be my only option here.” I started looking at places farther away. I was like, “Maybe I can travel to another place further away.” I was looking into birth centers around the area and all over South Carolina, really. At some point, I did come across a website that said they were offering VBAC support. I didn't really know what that meant, but I filled out a form. I said, “Hey, I need some help with a provider. I'm seeing an OB, but I'm not feeling super comfortable.” I submitted that form. I want to say that maybe a couple of days or a couple of weeks later, a midwife called me. She was like, “Hey, I'm not in your area, but I actually know a lot of people all over the state. Let me send an email to my network, and we'll see if we can find somebody who can help you.” One day, I got a call from a home birth midwife here in Charleston. She was like, “Hey, I got your message. Tell me how I can help you.” We talked a little bit about home birth. At that point, I was like, “Do I really want a home birth?” It was not something I had really considered.” During that HypnoBirthing class when I was pregnant with my first son, we watched a lot of videos of water births and home births. I always thought it was really cool, and I would love to have that experience, but at that moment, when she asked me, “Hey, would you consider a home birth?” I was like, “I need to think about that for a second.” I talked about it with my husband. I did a lot of research on home birth. I ended up sending her all of my medical records from my first pregnancy. We continued talking and checking. I continued to see my OB, and that was really for a variety of reasons. First of all, I had really good health insurance. All of my visits were covered, so all of the DNA tests, and things like the anatomy scan were covered by my health insurance, and it was just easy to coordinate those things with my OB. I also wanted to continue my care just in case there was something that would pop up that would prevent me from having a home birth and those plans would fall through. I'm a big planner, so I like having not just the plan, but also a plan B and a plan C. Yeah. I also like that established relationship just in case I needed a home birth transfer to the hospital. I've heard stories where moms were treated very differently when they arrived at a hospital with a home birth transfer, and in the case that I would have needed that, I could have just shown up to the hospital and said, “Hey, I'm a patient. I'm here. I'm in labor,” without them knowing that it was really a home birth transfer. I did not tell my OB that I was actually planning a home birth. I think she would have been pretty upset. Maybe she would have fired me. I don't know. But the difference in care that I received from the OB and from the midwife was really, really interesting. It seemed like at my OB appointments, there was a lot of focus on different tests and procedures like my weight. Further down, they wanted to do lots of cervical checks which I all declined. At the same time, when I talked to my midwife, the focus was a lot more on nutrition and on exercise. She was asking, “What do you do to prepare for your VBAC?” Lots of education on birth. There were lots of books that she suggested for me to read. I also started seeing a chiropractor pretty early in the pregnancy. I was doing my homework. I was doing my Spinning Babies exercises. I was so focused on doing everything I could to have the birth that I had envisioned. At some point, my midwife had me do some extra blood draws. She wanted to make sure that my iron levels were okay for the home birth, and they were actually slightly lower than they were supposed to be, so she put me on an iron supplement for a couple of weeks. That was an example of something that the OB never asked about or really cared about. At some point, I was a little bit nervous about the position of my baby. It almost felt like he was lying sideways, and I couldn't really tell. I brought it up to the OB. She was like, “Yeah. Let's get in the ultrasound machine. Let's take a look.” She was trying to feel, but she couldn't really tell. Everything was good. He was head down. Well, I didn't know he was a he because we did not find out the gender. Baby was head down. Everything was okay. I brought up the same thing to the midwife, and it was so funny because she did not need an ultrasound. She just felt. She felt really good. She was like, “Yeah. I know. I feel all of the different body parts. You're head down. You're good.” Of course, she was right. It was just so interesting to see how different things were approached by the two providers. I also hired a doula, and I made sure she was VBAC Link certified. It was really exciting. She was familiar with the podcast that I was, of course, listening to at the time to prepare for my VBAC. At some point, I had a situation with my OB that made me pretty uncomfortable. It was time for the GBS testing, and I had done my research. I made an informed decision. I let her know that I was declining the test. She was not happy to hear it. She kept saying, “Well, if your baby dies–”, and she kept saying that multiple times. It was like, “If your baby dies–”, and I was like, “This is so unprofessional to say it like that.” I totally understand that they need to–Julie:  Oh my gosh. I can't even believe that. Gesa: Yeah. Isn't that horrible?Julie:  That's horrible. Gesa: I understand she needs to educate me on the risks that come with declining certain tests, but that was just not a proper way to communicate that. Julie:  Yeah. Find another way. Find another way. Gesa: Yeah. Right. That situation really confirmed for me home birth was the way to go. I did not want anything to do with this hospital or this OB anymore at that point. I was fully committed to the home birth. I was planning on it. I continued my OB visits more just to check a box. At 37 weeks, my midwife brought over the birthing pool and some supplies. I gathered everything that I needed. She had sent me a list of all of the different supplies that we needed to buy and gather, so I started getting all of that. I created a beautiful birthing space for myself in our bedroom. I had my affirmations up. They were taped to my mirror in the bathroom as daily reminders. I had them hung up in the bedroom with some twinkle lights. I had the picture of the opening flower, and everything was ready. I had my Spotify playlist ready, and I was so excited for baby to come here. Then, at 39 weeks and 1 day, it was early in the morning, like maybe at 6:30 AM. I was lying in bed, and our toddler had climbed into bed with me. I felt a little pop, and I was like, “Hmm, that was weird,” but I didn't really think much of it because pregnancy is weird, and our bodies do all kinds of weird things that we can't explain when we are pregnant. I didn't think much of it. I went back to sleep. An hour later, I got up to go to the bathroom. I sit down on the toilet, and water is gushing out. I was like, “Shoot. What is going on? I'm not peeing. What's happening?” I just realized, “No, my water broke.” I wasn't expecting it at that point because you hear about a lot of women going into 40-41 weeks, 42 weeks, especially with their first pregnancy that they are going into natural labor, so I was so surprised that it happened at 39 weeks and a day. I was feeling a tiny bit of cramping, but definitely did not have any contractions. I texted my husband, “Oh my gosh. My water broke.” He was out for a workout, so he rushed home. I also texted my doula and my midwife just to let them know what was going on, but then the whole day was really uneventful. I was ready and waiting for labor to start. It just didn't. I went on a lot of walks. I tried some curb walking. I bounced on the yoga ball. I ended up getting a last-minute appointment with my chiropractor for a quick adjustment. I really spent all day just trying to get labor started. I took some naps. I also tried using the breast pump for some stimulation to get things going. I got some tiny little contractions. At that time, I thought they were contractions, but now that I know what contractions actually feel like, I realize that was not actually the case. I got some tiny contractions going, but then they fizzled out again. My midwife stopped by a few times to check on me and baby. She had me take my temperature every 4 hours and text it to her just to make sure I wasn't running a fever. Baby was moving normally. She wasn't overly concerned. She assured me that my body was probably just waiting until nighttime when my toddler was in bed and I was relaxed for things to start then. It was weird because I was leaking amniotic fluid all day, so I tried to stay super hydrated and replenish all of that water I was losing. I went to bed and thought, “Okay. This is it. We're going to have a baby maybe early in the morning. Labor is going to start.” Nothing happened. I woke up really early and really disappointed that nothing had happened. My midwife had sent me some information on PROM, so premature rupture of membranes, just to make sure I was making an informed decision. She always gave me the option to go to the hospital. She said that I could go in the evening of when my water broke. She said I could wait until the next day and do whatever I felt comfortable with, but she wanted me to be aware of the dangers with having a long time of broken waters. She also had sent me a recipe to the midwives' brew. That was something we talked about to get labor started. She said, “Something to consider for the next day if you don't have your baby overnight.” My husband went out. He bought the ingredients just in case. It was castor oil, almond butter, apricot nectar, and champagne. It was absolutely disgusting. It actually ruined almond butter for me for at least 2-3 years. I could not have it anymore. It was so gross. Julie:  Oh my gosh. That is so funny. That is funny. Gesa: I took it around 10:00 AM in the morning. At that point, my water had been broken for over 24 hours. I layed down for a nap, and maybe 2 hours later, I started feeling some contractions. They were coming in. I was just laying in bed breathing through them and listening to my HypnoBirthing affirmations and some relaxing music. My husband was actually taking a nap at that time with our son. At some point, things were getting pretty intense. I texted my doula and my midwife. I was trying to time contractions but it was also difficult. They both came over around 2:00 PM and realized pretty quickly that labor was going. They needed to fill that pool because that actually takes a while which was not something I was even thinking about.They quickly got the birthing pool filled. Once I got in the water, it was such a difference. At that point, I had some really, really heavy contractions and I think I got in there around 3:00 PM. It was such a night and day difference. My doula was awesome. She was rubbing my back. She was giving me cold washcloths on my neck. Yeah. She was super helpful. I was laboring in the tub. At some point, I needed to get out to go to the bathroom. As soon as I got out, I instantly regretted that decision because it was so horrible and the contractions were feelings so much stronger when I was not in the water. My husband was still sleeping at that point. I was like, “Okay, is somebody going to wake him up before baby comes?” But I also lost track of time of how long I even was in the pool. They did wake him up at some point. It was really funny because when he lay down for a nap, it was just me laboring in bed by myself. They woke up from the nap, and I was in full, active labor in the birthing pool with the doula and the midwife there, full action going on. He was just like, “Whoa, what's happening?” Yeah. He jumped right into action and helping me out and massaging and all of that good stuff. It was really sweet because my son kept bringing toys. He was a little over 2. He was 2 years and 3 months at that point. He kept bringing over toys. He was playing right next to the pool. He was checking on me. It was just really sweet and really special to have him there. Our dog was also walking around the pool and was really interesting in what was going on. I really lost track of time and of how long I really was in the pool. At some point, I felt some really, really intense pressure. It was almost like my body was pushing on its own without me really actively doing anything. I had heard of the fetal ejection reflex, but I didn't realize that that was what was going on. I didn't realize that baby was already coming. My midwife just looked at me. She was like, “Feeling a little pushy, huh?” I was like, “Yeah, I guess that's what's going on.” It all happened really quickly. My husband got our son situated downstairs because we wanted him to be there, but we didn't want him to be there right as baby was born. We thought that may have been a little bit too much for him, so we got him situated downstairs. Yeah, things happened really quickly. All of a sudden, his head was out. It was really fun because we got to feel his hair, and I did not have another contraction for a minute which was weird because his head was out. It was underwater, and it felt like a really, really long time between contractions. But then he was out with the next one, and my midwife caught him. He came right to my chest. My husband got to announce that he was a boy which I knew all along. We didn't find out his gender, but I just knew he was going to be a boy. My pregnancy was just so similar that I was like, “There's no way he's not a boy.” But yeah. He was born a little after 4:00 PM, so really just 6 hours from when I had the midwives' brew, so that really worked for me. Of course, I cried tears of joy. The amount of emotions I was feeling was just absolutely incredible. The rush of endorphins, I felt so empowered and so strong in that moment, like literally the strongest person in the world. It was awesome. We brought my son up and he got to meet his baby brother within minutes of his birth which was so special and such an amazing experience. Once we got settled a bit, I got to take a shower. I got to eat pasta in my bed, and then also safely cosleep with my baby in my own bed and in my own home which was just the complete opposite of that hospital C-section experience. Yeah, the home birth experience was really healing for me in a way. It gave me closure from my C-section experience. I think because I had the C-section, I just knew what I absolutely did not want, and I think that really helped me fight and prepare for my home birth experience. I still had to call my OB and cancel my 40-week appointment which was probably one of the weirdest phone calls I've ever had to made because I was like, “Yeah, I need to cancel my appointment because my baby is actually here.” They were like, “Wait, where was your baby born? We have no records of this.” I was like, “Yeah, he was born at home.” They were like, “You need to get him checked out immediately.”Julie:  You're like, “Yeah, accident.” Gesa: I was like, “No, we had a professional there. It's all good. Don't worry about it. Let's not talk about it anymore.”Julie:  I love that so much. Okay, I want to talk about a couple of things or maybe just comment. When you were talking about your C-section and how you felt guilty about how maybe he was having trouble nursing or whatever and you were feeling guilty that maybe he had been taken too early or he wasn't ready to be born yet and stuff, I felt that so hard with my C-section baby. I just wanted to validate that because I feel like that is not an uncommon thing. I feel like a lot of us have that concern when we have either a scheduled C-section or an induction that results in a C-section or maybe even an induction that results in a vaginal birth. You can look back at it and feel like, “Oh, maybe I made the wrong choice,” or “Maybe he was taken too early,” or things like that. I just wanted to validate that. Know that I see you, and I hear you, and I feel you. And everybody, not just you, but everybody. Try not to be too hard on yourself. I'm not speaking just to you, but everybody. Try not to be too hard on yourself because you were making the best decisions that you could with the information that you had available to you at the time. So give yourself some grace. Give yourself some love. I think that's really important is that we navigate our pregnancies and birth after having an unwanted C-section or an unwanted birth experience. Giving ourselves that grace is a really, really important part of it. I did want to talk about the difference in care. You highlighted a few things in your episode about the difference in care between a hospital OB and having a midwife or especially a home birth midwife. In the hospital, you're still going to see a little bit of similarities between midwifery and OBs, although midwifery care in a hospital is a lot more hands-on and a lot more personal and a lot more trusting, generally speaking, of the birth process. I just was thinking this morning about a post. There was a post in not even a VBAC group. It was just a local mom's group in my community. This woman was talking about how it was her first baby. She hasn't had an ultrasound or seen the baby since 10 weeks. She had a 10-week scan, and she hadn't seen the baby since then. She wasn't 20 weeks pregnant yet, but she was almost. She was just like, “I'm just wondering if this is normal. Every time I have an appointment with my OB, I only see him for 2 minutes. I don't feel like this is normal. I have some concerns, but I'm not being able to ask questions,” and things like that. It made me sad. It made me sad for this parent not being cared for in the way that she needs to be. It also made me sad because her experience is not that uncommon. I wanted to say that unfortunately, this is normal. You're not going to usually see your OB for more than a couple of minutes per visit. You're not going to have time to ask a lot of questions and get a lot of answers because hospitals are busy and OBs are busy. Most of them don't have the time or intentionally make the time to give you that kind of attention. It's just how it is. Now, I say most of the time because there are some OBs. I saw briefly an OB for my third pregnancy, and I love her. She was always 45 minutes late. Our appointments were always 45 minutes late. My appointment would be at 1:45, and I wouldn't get in there until 2:00 because she was giving everybody the attention that they needed. A lot of people get frustrated because she was an hour late for the visits, but I wasn't frustrated because I knew that she was giving other people the same attention that she gave to me. That is so, so rare in a hospital setting. I love that you highlighted that. I love that you talked about how your midwife took time to address your concerns, how she monitored your iron levels and gave your iron supplements and your OB didn't. It wasn't even on his or her radar. I don't know if your OB was a boy or girl. I can't remember. Their radar, right? And how your OB needed an ultrasound to confirm baby's position, but your midwife just palpated your belly because midwives are more hands-on. They are more intimately connected to the female body, to the baby, and to the physiologic birth process. Gesa: Yeah. She was more hands-on during the pregnancy, but then during the actual birth, she was very hands-off. She let me do my own thing. Julie:  Yeah! Yeah. Gesa: She wasn't constantly in my space and interrupting my labor. Julie:  Right. Gesa: She would come in very quietly and very softly. She would check on the baby and check on me, and if everything was good, she was back out the door. She let me labor in my own space and at my own pace which was awesome. Julie:  Right. I was going to talk about that next actually. I've been keeping notes while you have been talking because during your labor, you said you felt that fetal ejection reflex, and your midwife was like, “Oh, feeling pushy are we?” I know exactly what that looks like. I'm not a midwife, but I'm a doula. I've been a doula and a birth photographer, and I know what it looks like when a woman's body is progressing. But in a hospital setting, what do we do? We connect you to monitors. We put an IV in you. We sit at a nurse's station and watch the monitor. That's how we know how you are doing. We use ultrasounds to determine baby's position. We use data and numbers. We look at data to decide how the parent and the baby are doing. But in midwifery care, especially out-of-hospital midwifery care, you use a completely set of tools. We use observation. We are watching. We are listening. We are seeing. We are noticing the movements that are shifting and the sounds as they evolve and change. We are seeing the belly moved. We are seeing all of the different things, and it's a completely different approach. I know exactly what an unmedicated parent looks like as they are getting close to transition. I know the noises that change, what sounds are made, what different subtleties there are. You just learn these things when you actually just watch a laboring person, and notice what is happening. But they don't do that in a hospital. An OB and nurses– probably nurses because they are in the room a little bit more, but your OB won't show up until you start pushing. They don't know what the signs are. All they have is the data on the machine to see if you are doing. I know what approach I approve. Let's just say that. It's no secret that I'm a big fan of home births, especially for VBAC, when the parent feels comfortable there. I just really loved that. My appointments when I had my three VBACs at home, every time I saw my midwife, we would chat for an hour. She did talk about nutrition. I had preeclampsia for my first. My blood pressure was high. I was like, “I don't want high blood pressure,” so she gave me all of these nutritional things to do to help take care of my heart and help make sure that my blood pressure wasn't high. But then what would happen in the hospital? They wait until your blood pressure is high, then they treat it. They don't work on preventing it or making you healthier or things like that. I just feel like there is such a big difference in care. It's not for everybody. That's not where everybody feels safe, but I wanted people to know that home-birth midwives are very skilled. They are very hands-on throughout the pregnancy and oftentimes hands-off during the delivery because we trust these bodies to do what they need to do. Sometimes they do need help, but also observing and watching can help us know when a little bit of extra help is needed. It's such a fun little dance that can be done throughout pregnancy and labor. It's kind of like an art form as much as it is a medical side of things. Midwives are not chicken-dancing hippies that run around your room with incense and pray for a safe delivery. They are skilled medical professionals that have high levels of training and care and can practice in very similar ways that you see in a hospital setting just without all of the extra crap and interventions that are there. Obviously, they can't do surgery, and depending on your state and where you live, there are different restrictions about what out-of-hospital midwives can and cannot do. But a lot of people are surprised to find out how much training and knowledge and skills and procedures that out-of-hospital midwives have access to, so I wanted to talk about that. Yeah. Anyway, Gesa, do you want to give one piece of advice to anybody preparing for a VBAC right now? What would you tell anybody?Gesa: I think a lot of people, when they go to the doctor, they see their OB and they heavily rely on what they are telling them. They almost glorify the OB's advice in a way. We have got to remember that these doctors work for us. We don't work for them, so if we don't feel comfortable with what they are saying, we have the option to go somewhere else, and to take our business somewhere else. The doctors work for us. We don't work for them. It is never too late to switch your provider. I was going back and forth whenever I was pregnant with my first, and I was very late into my pregnancy. I kept thinking, “What if I just find a provider who does breech births?” In a way, I wish I had, but then you never know what actually would have happened, so it's hard to say how that would have changed my experience. I could have still ended up with a C-section, but I could have. I could have changed my provider at 38 weeks if I had contacted somebody, but I was just so overwhelmed by the whole situation that I didn't. But I was so glad that when I wasn't feeling comfortable with my OB during my second pregnancy and with what she was saying, that I took the step to find somebody who was truly supportive and who was able to help me with the birth that I had envisioned. Julie:  Yes. I absolutely love that. I think that's great advice. You make a very good point. It's never too late to switch providers. I think that the single most important thing that you can do to affect your birth outcome is to choose a provider who operates in the way that you want to birth just naturally. It's just what they do anyway. I feel like if you do that, then that's half the battle. Gesa: Yeah. 100%. I know some people feel very comfortable at the hospital, and a lot of people are not good candidates for a home birth. Julie:  Yeah, and that's where they should be. Gesa: When I told people that I was planning a home birth, I got a lot of people saying, “Are you sure? That's so scary.” If that's scary to you, then you shouldn't do it. If you feel safer in a hospital, go ahead. There's nothing wrong with that. Go to the hospital. Have your baby there if that's where you feel comfortable. For me, just the thought of having to fight for certain things while I'm in labor and very vulnerable wasn't something I wanted to do. I wanted to focus on laboring and birthing and just having that experience. I did not want to get into fights with OBs and nurses over whatever I could or could not do while at the hospital. That just did not sound like a good idea to me. Julie:  Yep. Absolutely. I agree, 100%. All right, well thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for sharing your story with us. I'm super proud of you. You said that after your baby was born, you felt like the strongest woman ever. I agree. You are the strongest woman ever along with all of the women listening right now. We are truly Women of Strength, and no matter how your birth outcome ends, you are strong. You are powerful. I'm very grateful to each of you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Katie has had a Cesarean (failure to progress), a VBAC, and most recently, an unmedicated breech VBAC!She talks about the power of mom and baby working together during labor. She is 4'10” and attributes so much of her first successful VBAC to movement. Katie's most recent baby was frank breech throughout her entire pregnancy. After multiple ECV attempts, she exhausted all options to seek out a vaginal breech provider. She was able to work with providers while still advocating for what felt right to her. Though there were some wild twists and turns, this breech vaginal birth showed Katie, yet again, just what her body is capable of! The VBAC Link Blog: Why Babies Go Breech & 5 Things You Can Do About ItThe VBAC Link Blog: ECV and BreechHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Julie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. This is Julie Francom here with you today. I'm super excited to be sharing some episodes with you guys this year and helping out Meagan a little bit and keeping things rocking and rolling here at The VBAC Link. I am excited to be back, and I am especially excited to be joined by Katie today who has a really, really incredible story about her three births. Her first was a C-section. Her second was a VBAC, and her third was an unmedicated breech VBAC. I absolutely love hearing stories about vaginal breech birth because I feel like it's something that we need to bring back. It's only fair to offer people options when we have a breech baby. I don't think it should just be an automatic C-section. I'm excited to hear her story. I'm excited to hear her journey to find support in that regard. But first, I'm going to read a review. This review is actually from our VBAC Prep course. If you didn't know, we do have a course preparing you all about all of the things you need to know to get ready for birth after Cesarean. You can find that on our website at thevbaclink.com. But this review on the course is from Heather. She says, “This course was so helpful especially with helping to educate my husband on the safety of VBAC as he had previously been nervous about my choice. We watched all of the videos already, but will also be reviewing the workbook again right before birth. I highly recommend.”I absolutely love that review from Heather because I feel like we get a lot of these comments about people and their partners really being on board and invested after taking the VBAC prep course with their partners. This course is chock-full of information about the safety of VBAC, and different types of birth situations. It talks about different interventions and hospital policies that you might encounter. It talks about the history of VBAC. It talks about all of the statistics and information. It talks about mental prep, physical prep, and all of those things. There are videos. There is an over 100-page workbook. There are actual links to sources, PDFs of studies, and everything you can even imagine. It is in this course. I also highly recommend it. Anyway, thank you, Heather, for that review. All right, let's get rocking and rolling. I am so ready to hear all about Katie's birth stories. Katie is right here snuggling her sweet little baby with her. I cannot wait. I hope we get to hear some little sweet baby noises. They are kind of my favorite. But Katie, go ahead and take it away, my friend. Katie: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and hopefully share some things that I would have loved to have shared with me. So let me just start from the beginning with my first baby 5 years ago. I was planning to have a birth. I wasn't quite sure what it would look like, but I thought I wanted unmedicated. It was my first baby, and I wanted to labor spontaneously. The labor was long, so 3+ days of labor. It ended in me getting to 10 centimeters and pushing. However, due to fatigue and the multiple interventions that I had and the cascade of interventions, I believe, resulted in a diagnosis of failure to progress so I had a C-section. It was, I would say, disappointing to me not because of anything except that I would have loved to continue on my path of vaginal delivery. That wasn't in the cards with this one for me. Then with my second 2.5 years later– oh, I should also say that I was at a teaching hospital. There were lots of people. They were very pro-intervention. You name it, I had it across those 3 days. So 2.5 years later when I got pregnant, I thought, “Okay. I know I want to attempt a VBAC.” My husband, my partner, was so on board. He got a shirt that said, “You've got this.” He was wearing it all of the time. We watched a ton of positive VBAC birth stories on YouTube. We listened to podcasts like this one. We followed all of the things on social media and prepared with an amazing doula. I went into spontaneous labor again and this time, I was sure I wanted– actually, I should say I had a membrane sweep, and then I went into spontaneous labor. I was sure I didn't want interventions for this one. My doula was on board. My partner was on board. I labored at home for quite a while. I came into the hospital. It was the same hospital. That doctor was not so supportive of me attempting a VBAC, however, another OB had said that because of our family planning, I said, “I think I want more kids,” another OB told that OB, “Hey, let's make it as safe as possible to do what she wants, so let her give it a try.” My doctor was semi-supportive, but I came in. I was 9 centimeters. It was unmedicated. I was in there for less than 3 hours. I pushed the baby out with a bar. I was squatting. They didn't even know the baby was out. In fact, the baby started crying, and it felt like minutes or hours in my mind, but it was just a couple of pushes. My doula said, “Baby out. Baby out.” Everyone rushed because they were so surprised because normally, I think, folks labor on their backs, and I had requested a bar. That was pretty amazing. It was just me and my son doing the thing. It was incredible. I remember that OB who was skeptical said, “You did it. You've changed my mind.” So that was exciting. 3 years later to now, I became pregnant with my third baby. I went in for my anatomy scan at 20 weeks, and the ultrasound tech said, “Baby is breech. No big deal. Tons of babies are breech.” Because I have some other health complications, I guess they deemed me as high risk. I went to multiple ultrasounds, so that means I get to see my baby once a month which also meant I continued to see that baby was breech each time. Each time, they kept saying, “Oh, don't worry. Plenty of time. Plenty of time to turn.” As we approached my due date, I was like, “I feel his head. I don't think he's going to turn.” So they started to let me know what type of breech he was. My baby was frank breech. There are a few different types of breech positions which I didn't know prior to this baby, but now I'm very well-versed in the different breech positions. Frank breech is basically a pike position. The feet are by the head, and his little rump was just hanging out in my pelvis. I was also hoping to birth at a birthing center with my doulas. This was different than that learning hospital that I shared because I just wanted a different experience where they were less pushy with interventions. I knew that with my last birth that they used the term “something pelvis”, but anyway, I was ready to do something different with less people in the room. However, when they found out that I was breech, I was told what I think is the stock option which was, “Hey, if baby stays breech, but don't worry, there's plenty of time and he'll probably turn, but this is what we'll do. We'll try an ECV, and if that doesn't work, we'll schedule your C-section. We'll give you an epidural, try the ECV one more time, and that way, you can go right into your planned C-section. But don't worry, we have time. The baby is going to turn.” I left and was like, “I don't want that. My baby is healthy. I'm healthy. I am on the fence about this plan.” Now, I'm 36 weeks so at 37 weeks, I go in. We have the ECV. They give me the shot to relax my uterus. The ECV is the external cephalic version where they put their hands and try to rotate the baby. It was unsuccessful. So I said, “Can we try again?” She looked at me like, “What?” She said, “We'll try again with that epidural when you schedule your C-section.” I said, “No, no, no, no, no. Can we try again?” This is where, I think, that advocacy and that information and research are so important. She said, “Sure. We can try it again.” We scheduled another ECV. I went back in, and it was also unsuccessful with her. She could tell at this point, I was grieving what I thought was the end of this journey for me, and also not necessarily on board with the protocol they had put in place. We planned. I said, “Hey, can I try a different provider?” I know that you can do up to four ECVS. I'm not suggesting that people do that. I just wanted to make sure that I did everything possible for me and baby to have a vaginal birth. They seemed pretty gung-ho about not delivering unless baby was head down. She said, “Sure. We can do that.” That was also unsuccessful. At this point, the OB said, and I appreciated this. They said, “I feel really uncomfortable delivering a breech baby. I think you should go to our sister hospital in a city away if you are considering breech because we don't have a NICU here.” That felt reasonable to me because I had said to her previously, “I hear you, and I hear that protocol with what you're suggesting. I also feel really healthy, and I will absolutely change course if me or baby's health is in jeopardy, but unless that is imminent, I consider breech a variation of normal,” so I didn't necessarily think that was the rationale for the C-section knowing what that recovery is like and knowing that I had a 5 and a 3-year-old back at home. Julie: Oh, I love that so much. I love that they gave you options, and they admitted that they weren't comfortable with it. So many times, doctors will be like, “We don't do breech here.” They don't tell you that it's because they haven't been trained or they're not comfortable with it or it's not safe, they just tell you that's not the protocol, and they don't offer you other options. I really love that, and I love the conversation you had where you were like, “I understand the risks, but however, this is how I feel.” I think that's a really healthy way to go about it on both sides. So, cool. Kudos to your provider. Katie: Yeah. Then that doctor suggested this. It was in the underground world. It wasn't like, “Go to the next place.” She also suggested, “Why don't you consult with UCSF?” That's the University of California San Francisco. That's maybe an hour and 20 minutes with traffic, and it can be up to 3 hours, but they do breech birth there. She referred me to have a consultation with UCSF to talk about breech birth which they are very comfortable with. The consultation was great. The people were really helpful. They also had a lot of requirements for me to deliver there. Those requirements were things like an anatomy scan to ensure that the head and rump sizes were comparable for safety of baby. They wanted me to do a pelvic pelvimetry MRI. Julie: Pelvimetry? Katie: Yes. They said, “You have a proven pelvis,” which is the word I couldn't remember earlier, but because I'm very short– I'm 4'10”--, they just wanted that in this case. I said, “Sure. I'll do all of the things if this is the place where I know I can make that birth plan with you and we can do it.” Then they said, “We also give you an epidural. You'll birth in a birthing room, then we'll transfer you to an OR. You'll have an epidural, and that's in case anything goes wrong.” I fully understand the risk and the why behind that, but given with my first baby, one of the interventions was the epidural and I labored on my back, I wasn't quite confident that was the way baby and I were going to do this because what I found in my second birth is me and baby working together and moving together was what, I think, was all of the difference in the world for us to be able to meet each other. That gave me a little bit of pause, but nonetheless, I was like, “Okay. They are being upfront with me about all of the things I need to do.” I had the anatomy scan. Rump to head ratio was 1:1. It looked great. They were scheduling this MRI for me to take. Now, keep in mind, I'm 38 weeks pregnant now. The other things I was concerned about, or more my husband I should say, was that San Francisco, like I said, is about an hour and 20 minutes away from me. With traffic, it can be 3+ hours. Julie: Oof. I've driven in San Francisco during traffic and let me tell you, it is a nightmare. Katie: Yeah. My husband was like, “What if you don't get there in time? How are we going to make this work?” These were all pauses that we had around it. Nonetheless, we were on this track and UCSF was so helpful and wonderful. I'm so grateful for my provider for recommending this consult. Then my doula, as well as other providers, started sharing information with me. I want to say it's an underground network of knowledge where people aren't advocating for vaginal birth on the record because either the hospitals don't want to or don't condone it for whatever reason. I guess you can guess the reasons whether it's money or policy or education and patriarchy, but there is definitely a need. Breech babies are born all of the time. They said, “There are three providers at that sister hospital (that my doctor had initially recommended that was 15 minutes away) who are experienced with breech.” I thought, “Okay. In the event of an emergency and I went into labor, that's where I want to go.” They had a NICU. They had all of the things that made me want to feel more at ease knowing that we were doing something new to me and to keep myself and my baby safe. I still told the UCSF doctors, “Don't worry. I know I'm 38 weeks, but my other babies came at 40 weeks and 1 day, so I've got 2 weeks. He's cooking for 2 more weeks.” Then, at 38 weeks– Julie: Third babies, man. Third babies. Katie: Right? At 38 weeks, 4 days, I wake up. I should say, sorry. The UCSF doctor also said one other thing to me. She said, “Please do one more ECV, and this time, do a spinal.” I was like, “Ugh, this sounds awful.” But I understood the rationale. The safest way to come out was head down. I wanted to compromise and do everything in my power to do that. She said, “Because they hadn't done a spinal previously, there's data that shows it's more successful.” She shared all of that research with me, so I requested that from my local doctor. My doctor was like, “We don't usually do this,” but to their credit said, “We will. We will absolutely do it.” Keep in mind, I went in. I was like, “I know that this baby is loving where they are at. They are not moving, but if I don't try it, I'll never know.” Knowing the risks of ECVs, and knowing all of these things, I did do that because it was a request of the hospital that was going to be potentially the hospital where I give birth, so I wanted to make sure to follow all of the things. I do that. It was also unsuccessful. Then, now fast forward to 38 weeks and 4 days, I wake up and it's been a couple of days since that ECV. The spinal they give you is on your back. I wake up and I have some stomach cramps. I thought, “Man, this is strange, but it's probably from the ECV,” because in the past, it did cause some cramping for me. Because I had the spinal, I wondered if perhaps it just was residual. In my past labors, all of my laboring started with my back. I had a little bit of back aching, but it was again, I chalked it up to the spinal and just recovering from that. I went about my day. It was right before Halloween. I'm telling my partner, “Let's carve pumpkins.” My 5-year-old had a soccer game. I'm trying to get him ready, and I keep getting these cramps. They start to be regular. I thought, “Oh.” I'm 90% sure I'm in labor. This labor just felt different. Maybe it was because it was a breech baby. Maybe it was because it was a third labor, who knows? But nonetheless, it took me a while to get there. Maybe I was thinking it wasn't happening and willing that 40-week mark. Nonetheless, I was laboring. I texted my doula, and I'm timing my contractions. We had agreed that she would come over earlier this time because the baby was breech. All of the doctors said, “Labor at home. Come in during active labor.” We agreed that I would come in earlier than I did last time because of the circumstances. She comes over. She says, “Where I'm laboring, if the contractions are feeling intense, however, I can talk and laugh in between them,” so we agreed that I might be 5 centimeters. I just started to think, “I've got to lie down. I feel super tired. I had this ECV. I want to keep my energy up,” thinking this could be a long labor. Let me eat something. Then she says, “Just go. Sit on the toilet because your body does something different.” I do that. It's 1:00 in the afternoon now, and my water breaks. My husband was packing the bags to get to the hospital thinking, “Where do we go? Do we go to UCSF? Do we go to that sister hospital?” I say, “My water is broken.” I have another contraction. She's watching it. She was like, “We've got to–”, and I started to feel nauseous which are all signs of labor. Julie: Good signs. Katie: Yes, so she was like, “Let's go. Let's go now.” We get in the car. I think this is funny. It's a little on the side, but my husband had set up the car seat right behind me. I'm laboring. I'm definitely contracting and trying to retract my seat. There is this car seat, so I just remember picking it up and tossing it across the side saying, “Why would you set this up here?” He's looking at me, “Oh, you are really in labor. This is clear.” I'm trying to lay down. He has the GPS set. I am in the car. We get going. It's now between 1:00 and 2:00 on a Saturday. There is a ton of traffic and construction. I'm looking at the GPS and I see 25 minutes to the sister hospital, and to San Francisco was 3 hours. We don't have 3 hours. My doula says, “Where are we going?” I say, “That sister hospital. Let's go.” I also happen to know that there are three doctors there through that grapevine and underground network who are experience at delivering breech babies there, so I thought the odds of me having one of them would be beneficial. I would much rather have had conversations with all of them, but I didn't plan to go there thinking I was going to go to UCSF. We get in the car and are driving in this traffic. I'm just looking at the GPS and at the time ticking down. I'm really quiet which was also strange because with my other births, I was super vocal. My husband and I were thinking, “I'm in labor, but maybe I'm just not as far along, even though my water broke.” I've never been quiet. I was dead silent through this whole thing just staring at this GPS. Then all of a sudden, we're going on a bridge called the Causeway and I looked at him, and I said, “I have to push right now.” Julie: No. Katie: He looks at me and says, “No,” which is not very much– he's a very supportive person. What he meant by this was that we didn't come this far to get this far. We're going to get to this hospital. We are driving, and I just remember internally that I was so quiet going inward. I was talking with my baby, talking with myself and saying, “Okay. We've got to get to the hospital. We didn't come this far to get this far. I'm not having a baby breech unassisted delivery.” That was not something that I was comfortable with. We get off the off-ramp, and we're finding the patient drop-off. I'm contracting and I see the sign, and my husband drives right by it. I look at him right after I contract and I say, “You drove right by the patient drop-off. You have to put on hazards. I have to get out now. I have to push.” He's like, “I can't. We're parking.” So he parked the car, and I was like, “What do you want me to do?” He says, “We've got to walk.” Keep in mind, the parking lot where he went is not right next door. It's a block and a half or two blocks away.Julie: No way.Katie: I just was like, “I can't do this. I can't do this.” He says, “Yes, you can. Yes, you can. You have got this.” So I was like, “Okay. I've got this.” I get up, and I walk. When I start contracting, I'm walking down this busy street. I said, “I have to poop.” I had this big contraction, and I think I possibly poop. I'm just looking at these cars thinking, “Why won't somebody stop and help me?” That's when I channeled back to this idea, at the end of the day, It's just you and your baby. You are the team. I contract. We are going. We finally get to the hospital. I have another contraction. I say, “Run in and tell them to help.” He does. I'm holding on to the railing. This lovely woman with her family sees me. She tells her 13-year-old son, “Get her!” I was standing by myself, definitely in labor.” She says, “Get her a wheelchair!” This amazing 13-year-old does just that as my husband runs back. He gets me this wheelchair. I'm sitting in it, but I can't sit down. Again, I think it's because I've had this bowel movement and maybe I'm in transition. I don't know. We get up and pass security, so security is yelling at us. My husband was like, “I've got to go. We've got to go.” We got to L&D and came in. This amazing nurse midwife welcomes us. I don't know if she saw me not sitting down all of the way in my wheelchair or what, but she yells, “Get her a room right now.” She says, “We're going to deliver this baby.” I say, “My baby is breech. Can you help?”She says, “Call this doctor.” My heart is so relieved because this is one of those three experienced doctors who I know is comfortable with breech delivering. He scrubs out of a C-section, I guess. She helps me take off my pants, and then realizes what I thought was poop was really– it's called rumping as a breech instead of crowning. She was like, “Change of plans. Get on all fours.” I just started laboring. The doctor comes in scrubbed out of that C-section. I know that the nurses are saying, “You're doing great. You're going to meet your baby,” and all of the things that are so wonderful. I couldn't speak more highly of the people in that room at that point. My doula joined us because it took her a minute to find us in all of the mayhem. He tells my partner, “Please make sure she goes on her back.” I had this vision of doing breech without borders on your hands and knees, but given that this doctor was very experienced with breech delivery through this underground network of knowledge, I was like, “Okay. We didn't come this far to get this far. I'll do whatever you want. Let's just see this baby.” I turn around after, my husband said, my baby was halfway out. He sees the legs drop which again, in a frank breech position, that happens. You see the rump, and then you see the back and the legs drop. He sees the rest of the body come out as I'm laboring on my back which I didn't do with my first. I wasn't actually, I didn't know if that was something my body was down for. But here I was delivering this breech baby. Of course, I should have known. Women are amazing. We do amazing things, and our bodies are built for this work. I labored, and then I felt him come out completely. I held my breath for a second because what I do know, and excuse me if this statistic isn't 100% accurate, but my understanding is that 1 out of 7 babies born head down might need resuscitation, but 1 out of 3 babies born breech might need resuscitation. So one of the things I was pausing for at this moment was to hear this sweet baby's voice, and so I just start hearing crying immediately. They tell me that his APGAR score was 9/8 which was exactly the same as my first VBAC. Julie: That's great!Katie: Yeah. They were like, “Baby is great. Baby is healthy.” They put him on me. I was trying to feed, but my cord was short, so low and behold, I have a feeling that the reason he was not interested in turning is because my cord was kind of short. He just was sitting fine where he was at with my posterior placenta up high. He and I sat and met each other. We celebrated. The doctor was so funny. He said, “You keep it interesting. You've had every kind of birth you could possibly have.” Julie: You keep it interesting. Katie: Yeah. Every type of birth you could possibly have. The nurses came in after. They said they wanted to come in and watch because they don't see this. They said, “This is amazing. We wanted to respect your privacy.” But they were so supportive of the whole thing. I just felt elated to have the people in the room and around me who believed in me and my baby as much as we believed in us to make it happen. I should say that I came in at 2:10 to this hospital. I delivered at 2:24. When I say it was fast and this was going quickly when all of those things happened, I wouldn't recommend any of those things. However, I think that advocacy and all of those things like knowing all of the data made me feel prepared to do that. That's my breech delivery story. Julie: I absolutely love that. I love that. I was like, “Aw, dang. Too bad she didn't have her baby in the car.” No, I mean that would not have been ideal for you, but it is a dream birth of mine. I mean, I would have loved to have my own baby in the car. It would have been amazing. I love the stories. One day, I dream of documenting a car delivery, but alas, here I am still waiting. But it's fine. Here's the cool thing. I really love how you navigated your birth. You sought out all of your options. You made a choice that you were comfortable with. You heard the risks that the doctors were telling you about. You acknowledged them, but you also stood up for yourself and your plan. I feel like when you can have that mutual respect where you can trust your provider and your provider can trust you, I feel like that's a great place to be. I love how you adapted and changed plans when needed, but you still stood firm for the things that you wanted. It doesn't always work out like that when you have to change plans, but I love that you had the plan and you navigated it with the twists and turns and all of the things that come with the unpredictabilities of birth. I love how you did all of that. I think it's really important and necessary to have strong opinions about how you want to birth. Like I said before, it doesn't always mean that the strong opinions that you have are going to hold true about what you actually end up getting. I think that the value in having those strong opinions about birth is the things that you learn along the way and the things that enable you to navigate through those changes of plans and things like that. I think that's really, really important for us to be able to have and do and be flexible. I do have a few different blog articles on our website related to breech babies. Now, there's one that is just recently published. It was a few months ago. Well, maybe it will almost be a year ago by the time this episode airs. It talks a lot about ECVs, the external cephalic version, in order to try and manually flip a breech baby. It talks about what ACOG recommends and ACOG's stance on it, things you can do, who is right for it, what may exclude you from having an ECV or attempting one and all of those things. It talks about the safety for VBAC and how it's performed, what it feels like, and all of those things. If you ever want to know about ECV, we have a blog for you. It's called ECV and VBAC: What you Need to Know. It goes into all of that stuff. I definitely recommend looking into it because like we said before, you don't really know your options until you have them, and the more information you have in your arsenal, the easier it's going to be for you to navigate those things. Basically, ECVs are pretty safe for most people. They have a success rate of 60% which is a really cool success rate. It's higher than 50%. You're more likely for it to work than not. Sometimes babies are breech for a reason, and they need to stay that way for some reason. There are really only a few things that exclude you which is excessive vaginal bleeding, placenta previa or accreta, if you have really low levels of amniotic fluid, fetal heart rate issues, if your water's already been born, sometimes providers won't do it that way, or if you have twins or multiples, I think that excludes you. It's listed here, and it makes sense. We've got lots of babies tangled up in there. It's absolutely safe for VBAC as well. We also have a couple more blogs about why babies go breech and some things that you can do about it. I'm sure, Katie, you probably tried all of these things, all of the Spinning Babies protocols, all of the forward-leaning inversions and things like that too that can help. There's another article in here about how to turn your breech baby– 8 ways to flip your baby. Like we said, sometimes babies are breech for a reason and they do not want to turn. I'm just really looking forward to the day where breech can be just a variation of normal again. The biggest problem is that our providers are not learning how to deliver breech babies. It does take a different skill in order to do that. You have to be really hands-off. You have to watch for certain things and depending on the type of breech, there are different techniques that you would use. Those techniques are not being taught. Kudos to your original provider who admitted that they were not comfortable or did not have the knowledge to feel comfortable in delivering a breech baby. I'm excited there are organizations called Reteach Breech, Breech Without Borders, and Dr. Stu. If you know Dr. Stu, he is leading a great mission to bring breech back so that women can have options for delivering their breech babies. So what happens if you don't know your baby is breech and your baby is delivered foot first? You can't just stop and go for a C-section right then. It's impossible. So to deliver breech babies safely no matter the circumstances, the knowledge there is important. I'm hoping that one day, that can be an option for anybody if they want that. All right, Katie, I'm so glad that you joined me today. It was so great hearing your story. I love how it all went. I do not pity you having to drive in San Francisco at traffic time. Yeah. I'm glad everything worked out. Katie: We ended up going to this other hospital closer. Julie: Yeah, yeah. But I mean just ever, not even in labor. Just ever. Katie: Yes. Yes. Julie: All right, Katie. Before we sign off, will you tell me, what is your best piece of advice for somebody preparing for a VBAC?Katie: Oh, I think it is so important to do two things. One, educate yourself and surround yourself around folks who are down with that education and believing in you and baby. What I mean by that is knowing what's happening so you can make those important decisions. You understand what consent looks like. You understand those risks. You understand all of the tips and techniques like in this case of breech and turning that baby, and then making sure that you also are advocating and you have people around you who are advocating, but not so stuck on that that you get stuck. You want to do what's best for you and the baby, but as you said, breech is a variation of normal. I think that being around people who are supportive of you, they don't necessarily have to agree with you, but they are working with you, is just so important to empower you because at the end of the day, it's you and baby doing the thing. People who believe in you as much as you believe in yourself and you believe in your baby are so important to get to that finish line in labor. Julie: Yes. I absolutely love that. You have to have people who believe in you and who are on your side and who will support you even if they don't necessarily understand your decisions. They trust you to make those decisions because that is a huge deal. Katie: And give you the information so that if the information you have is not full or complete, you can reevaluate. You don't know what you don't know until you know. I just think that you need to make sure you take it all in if you can unless you don't know your baby is breech and you find out when you are delivering and you make that snap decision, and it'll be great. Julie: Yes. No, I love that. There's something about people bringing you information especially in a respectful way because I feel like in today's world, when people disagree with others, it's very aggressive and condescending and judgmental. I think it's important that we can disagree respectfully but also bring information if you are concerned or if you have another point of view in a respectful way as well. I think it's received a lot better and I think that's where we can really bring that true change and sway people's opinions. It's if we do that in a respectful and understanding way. Yeah, I appreciate that. Good point, Katie. That was awesome. Okay, well thank you so much for sharing your story with me today. I cannot wait for the whole world to hear it. Katie: Thanks so much for allowing me the space to do it. I hope that women are able to explore their options and do what's right for them and their baby and their families. Julie: Yeah. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In Luke's account of the birth of Christ, an angelic herald proclaims to a group of shepherds "good news of great joy for all people." ECV exists to call all people to revolutionary lives of action through Spirit-empowered communities that love and obey Jesus Christ in all things. This week, we will consider this "all people" aspect of what it means to follow Jesus, and how it challenges us to live vulnerably, availably, and courageously to love and engage with people very different from ourselves as a way of life, that all people might also know and obey Jesus, too.- Series Description -During Advent this year, we join believers around the world as we seek to quiet and reorient ourselves to Jesus in this often busy and fragmented season. And as we both celebrate his first coming and expectantly await his return, we seek to savor and reflect his light, enter into his joy even in our pain, and lift our eyes to the world for whose sake he came.

Listen to today's episode to hear Meagan talk all about bicornuate, unicornuate, arcuate, and septate uteruses, uterine didelphys, and more.Though there can be complications, research is limited, and vaginal birth is often possible. Chat with your provider about your birthing desires, and don't be afraid to get multiple opinions!A Case of Vaginal Birth after Cesarean Delivery in a Patient with Uterine DidelphysUterine DifferencesSuccessful Vaginal Delivery after External Cephalic Version in a Woman with a Large Partial Uterine SeptumNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan, and I am solo today. We will not be sharing a VBAC or CBAC story, but we're going to focus on our topic of the week. That is uterine abnormalities. So if you haven't listened to Flannery's episode last week, or I should say earlier this week, go check it out. Flannery has a bicornuate uterus, and we talked a little bit about the different types of uteruses, and her journey, and what happened or what was most common with her bicornuate uterus. But today, I wanted to talk a little bit more about the different types of uteruses. It's kind of weird to think about, but we do. We have multiple shapes of our uteruses. I don't think it's really talked about a lot, so I thought it would be cool to jump on today and talk a little bit more about the uteruses. But, we do have a Review of the Week, so I wanted to jump on and share this review. It says, “I now recommend this podcast to every mom who will listen, even first-time moms. I tell them this is the podcast I wish I would have listened to before our first traumatic birth. It helped me process, learn, and heal so much after my son's birth. Two years later, pouring into numerous books, online courses, and more, we are preparing for our October VBAC. Their podcast has by far been the most favorite resource hands down. Thanks, Julie and Meagan, so much for what you do.”Thank you guys for your review. That review was left on Google, so if you wouldn't mind, press pause in just one moment, and go leave us a review. Your reviews help other Women of Strength come and find this podcast, find the blogs, find the course, find the doulas. You guys, I love this community so stinking much and believe that every mom, just like the reviewer said, and even first-time moms should be listening to this podcast. These stories that you guys share are absolutely incredible. The information that we share is invaluable. If you can, go to Google. Type in, “The VBAC Link” and leave us a review, or leave us a review wherever you are listening to your podcasts. Okay, everybody. Like I said, we are going to be diving into uterine abnormalities. We talked a little bit about Flannery. She had a bicornuate uterus. What is a bicornuate uterus? A bicornuate uterus is a heart-shaped uterus meaning the uterus has two horns making it look like the shape of a heart. With bicornuate uteruses, there are some things to know. There can be a higher chance of a breech baby. I'm going to share my source here with you. It's pregnancybirthbaby.org. We're going to have this in the show notes. I think that it is just so great. It's such a great visual and understanding on the different types. So yeah. They've got two horns. It doesn't reduce your chances of having a baby or getting pregnant. It can increase things like early miscarriage or an early preterm baby, or like I said, it can impact the position of the baby. But it's possible. VBAC is possible with that. The hardest thing about uterine abnormalities is there is not a ton of evidence or deep studies to dive into how it's impacting people who want to go on and have a vaginal birth or go for a, in the medical world, TOLAC or trial of labor after a Cesarean. If you have a uterine abnormality, it's something to discuss with your provider. Know you don't have to go with that first answer. You can get multiple opinions. Okay, another uterine abnormality or shape is– oh my gosh, you guys. Don't quote me on this. I will butcher how to say these. I will try my best. It's a didelphys uterus. It means that your uterus is split in two, and each side of your uterus has its own area. it also can increase your chance of having a premature birth, so if that is something that you have, I think that's something you want to discuss with your provider knowing that you could have a premature birth. We also know people who have premature VBACs all the time, but it's something to discuss. There's acruate, and that is a uterus that actually looks really similar to a normal-sized uterus but has a deeper dip in the top of the uterus in the womb. It doesn't affect your fertility. It can increase just a little bit of a later miscarriage. That is something to discuss, although sometimes providers will want to induce if everything is looking well at an earlier gestational age. Also, this one can impact the position of your baby, so being aware of that. Then there's septate. Again, I don't know. Sorry for butchering this, you guys. If you're a medical professional, sorry. It says, “A septate womb has the wall of a muscle that comes down the center of the uterus, and then it splits into those two areas and is divided by a membrane or a tight band of tissue.” It reminds me of a rubber band. It splits it down. It can also impact fertility and, again, increase the possible risk of miscarriage in the early stages or cause a premature baby. Once again, discuss with your provider if you have this what that means and what that means for VBAC birth in general. Then, let's see. There's also retroverted. That's a uterus that tips further back instead of that forward stage. Again, there are so many different types and shapes of uteruses. Sometimes we don't know what we have until we have a baby who is born. Sometimes it's once we have a Cesarean where they are like, “Oh, hey. You have this type of shaped uterus.” If you really feel like you need to know or you are having issues or anything like that, dive in with your provider and see if they can tell you what shape of uterus you have.Like I said, little is known about the outcome of VBAC with uterine abnormalities, but there is an article and it was back in 2019. It's called “A Case of Vaginal Birth After Cesarean Patient Who Has a Uterine Didelphys”. I want to talk a little bit more about that. As a reminder, that is the one that is split in two. If I recall, I think they even have their own cervixes. That can be interesting. But this is going to be a little bit more on this. They talk about it. There are only a few studies. The studies are low, like 165 women in the one study. It shows that those women with abnormalities found were statistically less likely to have VBAC. Again, we know that a lot of the time, these people have babies who are in less ideal positions or they are going into early preterm labor. There are things to be said about that. But the other small study is literally teeny tiny. It had 25 women with uterine abnormalities reported, and a VBAC rate was similar to women with a “normal” uterus. There are things to say there.Now, the other study showed that they were less likely to experience uterine rupture than women with normal uteruses, but then this one said that the uterine rupture rate was higher. So such little information. I mean, really, it's little information that I have been able to find so far. I'm going to dive in deeper and update you, but yeah. It says, “The actual rates in VBAC and uterine rupture in women with uterine abnormalities are more likely to be similar or less favorable than those women with normal uteruses.” So, keep that in mind. It goes on and says, “Some authors hypothesized that uterine abnormalities, especially unicornuate uteruses, are associated with decreased uterine muscle mass. So when we have decreased uterine muscle mass, that means it may not contract as effectively or strongly as it needs to, so that can lead to other things like arrest of descent or we were not getting into that active phase of labor, needing things like Pitocin and things to augment labor or they may have a harder time pushing out the baby because the uterus isn't helping as well. So we may have a higher chance of an assisted delivery like a vacuum or forceps. With all of this said, you guys, I want to leave it here with you to encourage you to speak with your provider, and get multiple opinions. If you have been told that you can't VBAC because of a certain situation, dive a little deeper with questions with your provider because again, the hardcore evidence is not really there. It's just low. I mean, it's there, but it's low. There's another article that says that uterine abnormalities are common in the general population with an estimated range of 1-15 per 1000% women. We know that there are people out there who have uterine abnormalities. I don't feel like it's talked about a ton, and that's why I wanted to come on today and talk a little about the different types, and of course, share with Flannery's episode with a bicornuate uterus showing that she still did go on to have a VBAC and it is possible. So if you have a uterine abnormality, please know that it doesn't mean you're just completely off the table. It still can be an option. Discuss it with your provider. Check out the links. I will include them in the show notes today more on those uterine abnormalities, and what it means, and what these studies are showing. There was another one that said that a septate uterus is clinically significant because it has been shown to be associated with adverse pregnancy outcomes including, like I said, that preterm labor and malpresentation. So it's a thing that can cause malpresentation and can cause preterm labor, and even miscarriage. But does that mean that you can't have a vaginal birth? Another thing to ask your providers if you have any of these things are, “Okay, if my baby is in a less than ideal position, say, breech or transverse, does my uterine abnormality or my specific case rule me out of having something like an ECV?” Varying rates of ECV success have been reported, and we're also not doing them enough. We are not seeing them being done enough, even though they have a lot of success. But the question is if you have a uterus that is a little different, do you qualify? Ask the questions. Be informed, and if you have any questions, let us know.And hey, if you have a uterine abnormality and you are listening, and you had a VBAC, I would love to hear from you because we have people who are searching for stories with uterine abnormalities. I know that our community would love to hear your story. You can message us at info@thevbaclink.com or if you are a provider who maybe knows a lot more and specializes a lot in uterine abnormalities, I would love to chat with you and discuss a podcast episode in the future. Thank you guys!ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Flannery joins us today from Connecticut sharing her story of an unexpected C-section at 35 weeks due to oligohydramnios, breech presentation, and concerns with her baby's kidney functions. She was also transferred to an unfamiliar hospital for its surgical capabilities. Though she was terrified, her anesthesiologist was calm and reassuring. The toughest memory of Flannery's birth was not being able to kiss her baby before he was swept away to the NICU. She was determined to do everything in her power not to have that happen again the second time. Knowing she had a bicornuate uterus, she worked hard to keep her baby's head down from the very beginning of her second pregnancy. She switched to a midwife practice, carried her baby past her due date, went into spontaneous labor, and had an intensely beautiful unmedicated hospital VBAC!NICU Free ParkingTypes of Uterine ShapesAFI ArticleNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. We have our friend from Connecticut. And you know what? I didn't ask. How do you say your name? Flannery: It's Flannery. Meagan: That's how I was going to say it. Flannery: Yes, good job. Meagan: We have our friend, Flannery, here from Connecticut and she has a bicornuate uterus. This week's focus is on different shaped uteruses or uterine abnormalities as I'm air quoting. We know that people have them. People have different-shaped uteruses. Sometimes that can impact things like breech babies or even a provider's ability to support– I don't want to say ability. It's their willingness to support, especially in VBAC. We're going to be diving into that. She's also a NICU mama so for other NICU mamas, she might have some tips for you along the way. She just told me before this that she was a labor and delivery nurse before she had her first. Flannery: Yep, and then I switched over. Meagan: Now she switched over to postpartum. She knows the field, so we might talk a little bit about labor and delivery nursing and the postpartum world. Flannery: Yeah, definitely. Meagan: Awesome. Okay, well let's get into your stories. Flannery: Okay, thank you. I'm so excited. I would listen to this podcast all the time when I was pregnant. At the end, when they say, “If you'd like to share your VBAC story–” and I would say, “I will be sharing my VBAC stories someday.” Meagan: I love that. “I will be sharing my story”, and here you are sharing with all of the other Women of Strength coming to learn and grow and feel empowered. Flannery: Yeah, I loved it. My first pregnancy was actually an unplanned pregnancy. I had just gotten married. I just started a labor and delivery nurse job. I was noticing that I wasn't feeling great, that I had some bleeding which I thought was my period, so I just was like, “You know what? Let me take a pregnancy test just to reassure myself because there is no way that it will be positive.” It was, and I was so shocked. I remember taking the tests, seeing the two lines, and my heart dropping. I thought to myself, “I am not ready to be a mom. I can't believe that I am having an unplanned pregnancy. This is so crazy.” I was only 25 which I know is not that young, but up here in Connecticut, it's pretty young. Meagan: Is it really? What's the average for first-time moms? Can I ask?Flannery: I'm guessing 30-32. Meagan: Okay. Flannery: None of my friends had babies yet or anything, so I felt very alone and obviously very shocked. Yeah. I had no idea how far along I was. I went to the dating ultrasound with my husband at the hospital where I worked, and they put the wand on my belly. There was a full baby in there. It wasn't a bean. It wasn't a little heartbeat, but it was a baby. They said, “You're 11.5 weeks along.” Meagan: Oh my gosh. Really?Flannery: Yeah. I was beyond shocked. Meagan, I had no idea that I was pregnant. I didn't have any symptoms. I was having some bleeding, so I thought that had been my period, but nope. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Was it implantation bleeding? But then that would be too late. Flannery: I don't know. I think maybe just how some people get first-trimester spotting or bleeding after sex or exercise or something. I'm thinking that's what it was. Meagan: Crazy. Flannery: I know. I had skipped the first trimester, and that terrified me because I wasn't on a prenatal. I was having some wine. I was just like, “How could I have missed this? This is embarrassing. I'm a nurse.” Meagan: “I'm a nurse.” Hey, listen. It happens. People talk about it. I'm sure that was such a shock not only to see those two pink lines and that you were not having babies with any of your friends, but then you skipped the whole first trimester. Flannery: Crazy. It was crazy. It took a while to wrap our heads around it. Then during the ultrasound, hearing the ultrasound tech saying, “Have you ever had an ultrasound of your uterus before?” I was like, “No,” not thinking anything of it, just focusing on the baby, and then I got a call from my doctor a few days later, and she was like, “So, it looks like you have a bicornuate uterus. Have you ever heard of that?” I was like, “No. I've never heard of that before.” She said, “Basically, your uterus is shaped like a heart, and it should be shaped like a balloon.” I was like, “Okay. That doesn't sound too bad.” We hung up. I went on Google and Googled “bicornuate uterus”, and let's just say the stuff that comes up is not reassuring at all. It's so scary. It says things like, “Risk of preterm delivery. Risk of stillbirth. Risk of infertility. Risk of malpresentation.” It just went on and on. Postpartum hemorrhage, and all of this stuff, so I really broke down. I remember just crying and crying to my husband, “I've had this crazy birth defect my whole life, and I've never known it.” I didn't know how it was going to impact my birth or anything. That was definitely scary.Meagan: Did they tell you anything about how it could impact your pregnancy or your birth? Flannery: Not really. This was a general GP doctor that I was seeing, so she didn't really go into it with me, but I definitely spoke about it to the midwives that I was seeing once I established care with them. They were just like, “Yeah, it can cause baby to be breech.” That was all they told me about it. Meagan: Okay. Flannery: Yeah. I was doing a lot of research looking for podcasts and everything about bicornuate uterus and all of the things that go along with it, but I couldn't really find much. This was a few years ago, so maybe three or four podcast episodes about bicornuate uterus, breech, and malformation. I think now there are more, but at the time, it was really hard to find information. Meagan: Yeah. I still feel like it's 2024. What year are we in? We are almost in 2025. We are in 2024, and it still is. There is still not a ton. It's not a beefy topic. Flannery: No, it's really not. I think that some people don't know they have it until they get pregnant which was in my case, and they have an ultrasound. It's hard to tell later on in pregnancy if you have it because your baby will stretch out the uterine space, so you can really only tell in the first trimester if you have an ultrasound. Meagan: Interesting. Good to know. Flannery: So my pregnancy progressed pretty normally after that. I was very stressed at this new job in labor and delivery that I was working in. I was seeing really scary births all of the time, traumatic births, and some good ones too, but it put this idea in my head that you cannot plan your birth. Things are so out of your control that there's no reason to have a plan because you're just going to be disappointed anyway. All you can do is go with the flow. That was my attitude at the time. It's definitely changed since then. It was definitely interesting trying to be a first-time mom and also learn how to be a labor and delivery nurse and reconcile the two experiences that I was seeing. Meagan: I bet. Flannery: Yeah. Meagan: I bet that would be really challenging. Flannery: It was. It was interesting. I established care with some midwives who I worked with. They were highly recommended, but I didn't really feel like they were giving me the midwife experience that I had heard so many people rave about. I felt like they really treated me like a coworker instead of a first-time mom when I was going to their appointments. I was fine with their care. I wouldn't say it was the best or the worst by any means. Then I realized around 25-26 weeks, “Gosh. I'm really feeling this rock under my ribs all the time. I think that's the baby's head. I think the baby is breech.” Then at 28 weeks, I had a growth scan because you have to have growth scans if you have a bicornuate uterus, and they were like, “Yeah, sure enough, the baby is breech.” The midwives told me, “Okay, you can do some Spinning Babies and put an ice pack near the baby's head and play music down low,” and all of those crazy things that you hear. I was like, “Yeah, sure. Okay, I'll try it.” I did a few inversions, but they gave me terrible heartburn, so I was not super consistent with that. The baby just wasn't budging week after week. Eventually, it came to about 35 weeks, and I was getting another growth scan. I had just worked a very tiring shift at work. I went to get my ultrasound. I was dozing off as she did it. She stopped the ultrasound, and she said, “I'm going to send you over to your midwife's office. Go over right now.” I walked over, and the midwife was like, “Girl, what's going on?” I was like, “I don't know. I just had this pit in my stomach, but I had no clue what was going on.” She was like, “You have no fluid. Get back to the hospital. You're going in as a patient now, and we're going to try to rehydrate you.” I was like, “What? What is going on? No fluid? What does that mean?” I guess they had found in ultrasound that my baby's left kidney was super dilated, and my fluid was low which is called oligohydramnios. I know you've talked about this on the podcast before, but I think they measure it with an AFI. It's supposed to be over 8. Mine was a 4. Meagan: Really low. Yeah, below 5. But they were just going to rehydrate you. They weren't going to induce you? Flannery: Not yet, no. They wouldn't have induced me anyway because my baby was breech. Meagan: Which is good. They wouldn't. Yeah. Flannery: They were going to try to rehydrate me first and see how that went. It did, and they decided to give me some steroid shots too. My favorite midwife came in, and she said, “We're going to do these steroid shots, and we're going to see if the rehydrating works. I know you've been working hard. Maybe this is just a dehydration situation because you haven't been able to take care of yourself properly.” I was like, “Okay”, then she made a comment about delivery at 37 weeks. I was like, “Oh, this is a delivery-type situation.” It had really not sunk in with me yet that this was that serious. She was like, “Yes. Oligohydramnios can cause stillbirth. It's very serious. Probably what we are looking at is two weeks of monitoring, and then delivery at 37 weeks which will be a C-section unless your baby flips.” I was like, “Oh my god. Okay.” Meagan: Yeah. But with the fluid, did they want to continue giving you fluid? Did they encourage your hydration with electrolytes and everything? Flannery: Yes, they did. I was chugging water like a maniac for a few days and coconut water and all of this stuff and getting IV fluid. It did come back up a little bit to a 6, maybe. Meagan: I was going to say, did it fix it at all?Flannery: I was still getting a bunch of ultrasounds, then it went right back down to a 4. They said, “We're going to have you consult with maternal-fetal medicine at a bigger hospital on March 9th. My baby was due April 11th, but this was a lot earlier than I was expecting anything to happen. We went to this appointment to get this more detailed ultrasound, and the doctor comes in. She seems very nervous. That's not what you want. You don't want a doctor to seem nervous.No. She's like, “It looks like your baby's left kidney is non-functional. It's just a cluster of cysts.” Meagan: Oh no. Flannery: I was like, “Oh my god.” I was so terrified. I just had no clue. This didn't show up on the 20-week ultrasound or anything. She was like, “And your fluid is still super low.” We did an NST. They sent us home, and I was just waiting around at home with my husband for my midwife to call to make a plan. I was like, “Am I going back to work tomorrow? Am I going to be having this baby?” She called me, and she was like, “So, this isn't what I was expecting to tell you today, but I've been consulting with the neonatologist here and some OBs. Since you've already had your steroid shots, we want you to go to the hospital now to have your baby tonight.” She was like, “Don't rush down the highway in the snow. This is an urgent, not an emergent situation. You'll be in good hands.” I was like, “What in the world?” I was so taken aback. I didn't believe it. They were also transferring me to a different hospital from the one that I had worked at and had planned to deliver at. Meagan: Is it because of the NICU situation?Flannery: Because of the NICU, yeah. This bigger hospital had the capability for surgery, and my hospital did not. It was a situation where it was a small hospital and a situation that they weren't really comfortable with. We hopped in the car and drove through this big snowstorm. I was just crying and shaking. We had no idea. We were both terrified. We had no idea what we were about to walk into.When we met our OB, she walked into the room. She just radiated calmness and kindness and peace. She was just an angel. She made us feel so safe. They were monitoring the baby and putting my IV in. I was still trying to wrap my head around the fact that I was having a baby tonight. Meagan: Yeah. Flannery: I was wondering, “Is this baby going to be okay? What is going on here?” We walked down the hall to the OR. I kissed my husband goodbye. I remember just thinking, “Okay. Here we go. There's no going back now.” The only way I could stay calm was to surrender any of the control that I thought I had and really just trust in God and trust in the people who were going to do the surgery on me. I lay down on the table and the anesthesiologist was so kind. He was petting my head and talking to me. My husband came in and they were setting up the drapes. My doctor who I had just met leaned her head over and she said, “This is where I had my first daughter.” That just made me feel so happy. Things are going to be normal again. She had a C-section too. It made me feel very safe. Everything went really well during the operation. I remember I could see the reflection of the operation in the lights that they have above you. I bet other moms will know what I am talking about, but they have these big OR lights, and I could kind of see what they were doing which was crazy.Meagan: You can. They're like mirrors. Flannery: I know. They should come up with something better. Meagan: Yes. For those who don't want to watch or see anything, just turn to the side. Flannery: Close your eyes. Meagan: Close your eyes. Turn to the side. Flannery: Yeah. They said, “After a few minutes, okay. Here he comes. Then he's out.” I didn't hear anything. I heard someone say, “Okay. I need to take him.” I could tell that was the neonatalogist saying they needed to work on him a little bit. They took him over to a corner where we couldn't see or hear anything that was going on. We could just hear people talking. Eventually, we heard a little cry. My husband started to cry. I looked at him, and I smiled. I just felt relief that he was alive, but I didn't feel anything. I just felt this nothingness. Meagan: I can so relate to that. Flannery: Yeah. It's so strange. It's just not what you're hoping to feel in this big important moment. Meagan: Mhmm. Flannery: I remember the neonatalogist after a while, he was breathing on his own. He had peed and pooped. They showed us pictures of him. She walked over with him in his arms in this little bundle of blankets. She stood pretty far away, maybe 6 or 10 feet away. She was like, “Okay. You know the plan. We need to check his kidneys in the NICU. What's his name?” I said, “I don't know. I need to see his face.” She flashed the blanket at me and flashed it down so I could see his face. I couldn't see anything. I said, “I don't know. I don't know what his name is,” and she walked out with him. That is just the worst memory from that whole experience. The surgery itself was really good. The care I had was great, but I'll never get that moment back. She could have brought him over to give me a kiss or see his face. It was hours until– Meagan: Touch or kiss his face.Flannery: It was so long until I could see him and meet him in the NICU. I just think about that all of the time. I did get to go meet him after a few hours. He was doing great. I didn't recognize him at first when my husband rolled me over to his isolet in the NICU which was hard, but as soon as I held him, I just had this overwhelming rush of love. It hasn't changed to this day. He's just such a joy.He turned out to be fine. His kidney was normal. It's resolved on its own, and it wasn't a cluster of cysts like they had thought. Meagan: Yay.Flannery: Yeah. He's doing great. He's a very rambunctious, very smart 2.5-year-old now. Meagan: Good. Flannery: Yeah. I'm so grateful that I have him now. I'm so grateful that I accidentally got pregnant with him.Meagan: Yes. He was meant to be, and he was going to make sure that he was.Flannery: He totally was. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: I'm sorry that you had that experience. I want to say it's unique, but it's not. That sucks. Flannery: It's totally not. Meagan: I hope that as people are listening, if they are in the birth world of labor and delivery nurses or OBs or midwives or whatever it may be, please be mindful of mom. Please be mindful of mom. Don't forget that she doesn't feel these things because does. She needs to see her baby. She needs to touch her baby. She needs to kiss her baby. If it is a true emergency, true emergency, understandable. But in a sense of this, it doesn't sound like it was a true emergency.Flannery: It wasn't. It wasn't. Meagan: They went over, and they took a lot of time with your baby, and then came and left. They didn't need to just come and leave. Flannery: Right, right. Especially when baby is breathing on its own and stuff, you can take 10 seconds to let mom give baby a kiss.Meagan: It will impact mom. Flannery: It totally will. Meagan: Here you are 2 years later still feeling mad. You're like, “I still think about that.” I saw it. I saw it in your eyes as you were telling that story. You feel that still. That's there. I hope that people can remember that protocols and what you think needs to happen and all of these things do not trump mom. Flannery: Totally. Totally. Meagan: Right. Yeah. So, having a NICU baby, how long– what was the exact gestation?Flannery: He was 35 and 5. Meagan: Okay, so it was a preterm Cesarean as well. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: Did they have to do any special scar or anything like that because it was preterm? Flannery: No, thankfully not, but he was very stuck up in my ribs. He had the cord around his neck, and there was meconium. I know that he needed to come out that way because I don't think he could have flipped if they did an ECV. I don't know if he would have tolerated labor if he was head down even. Meagan: Yeah. That's definitely an early baby, but good that all is well for sure. Flannery: Yeah. He did great. It was a rocky start, but he's doing great now. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any advice for NICU moms listening? Flannery: Yes. There is this foundation that will pay for your parking costs while you're in the NICU. I didn't know about it in time. Parking can get very expensive when you are visiting your baby. If you just Google, “Parking Foundation for NICU parents,” I'm sure it will come up because I can't remember the exact name. Meagan: I'm going to look it up. I'm going to look it up while you start your next story. We'll make sure to have it in the show notes if I can find it. Flannery: Yes. Yes. Meagan: Okay, keep going.Flannery: My next pregnancy, I was determined to do everything right this time. I was like, “You know what? The last pregnancy was so rocky and so unexpected that this time, I'm going to do everything right, and therefore nothing can go wrong.” I think people have that feeling a lot which is so irrational, but we can't help it. I did go back to see my OB who delivered Freddy, my son. I just loved her. I thought she was wonderful. I just wanted to see what her opinion was about why I had those complications in my pregnancy and see what she thought about a VBAC because even though I wasn't sure if I could have a VBAC, I was interested in it. She listed out all of these rules that she had about VBAC, about, “You can't be preterm. You have to go into labor naturally,” and all of the things that you say are red flags on the podcast. Meagan: I'm like, all of the normal things, but they are all red flags. Flannery: Yes. I mean, I loved this doctor, and I think if I was going to have a repeat C-section, I would have gone back to her because she is awesome, but that wasn't the experience that I wanted to have this time. I did a little research, and I found this midwife practice that everyone recommended to me. I decided to go with them instead. This pregnancy was super uneventful. I was very conscious of taking care of myself and taking walks a lot and prenatal yoga and being on top of my vitamins and all of that sort of thing. I was very religious about positioning and Spinning Babies because I was like, “If I can just get my baby head down from the beginning, I think that I can do the VBAC,” because with a bicornuate uterus, you have less time to flip them, so with a normally shaped uterus, baby can flip up until the very last minute if they are breech, but with a bicornuate uterus, first of all, you have more of a chance of baby being breech and less of a chance for them to flip based on the shape of your uterus. There's just not as much room. I was trying to sit on my yoga ball and doing all of these stretches. I was thinking, “Gosh. This is so unrealistic. Who's not going to sit on their couch for 9 months? I have to be sitting on my couch. I can't be walking 3 miles every day,” but then I'd go back and forth in my head like, “Do you want a VBAC or not? You have to be religious about this.” You don't have to do everything I guess is what I'm trying to say. You'll try your best, but you have to do what's right for you, but you can't go to the extremes.Meagan: I love that you pointed that out. With my second baby, I was doing the red raspberry leaf. I was doing the dates. I was doing all of the things, and even with my third baby, I was the one who didn't sit on the couch for 9 months. I still had a posterior baby. I will just say that I still had a posterior baby. I had a head-down, but still a posterior baby. Actually, he was still going breech too throughout pregnancy. Yes. He was such a stinker. But, I did do all of those things. I did the dates. I did the tea. I did all of it. For me, With my third, I had to dial back a little bit and say, “Okay. I'm going to do everything I feel is right for this pregnancy.” Dates wasn't one of those. I actually didn't do the dates thing. I know there is some evidence on that, but I just didn't do it. It didn't feel right to me, but I did other things like chiropractic care. I did drink tea. I hired a midwife and decided to go out-of-hospital and hired a birth team. I did birth education. I think the biggest thing is to do all of the things that stick out and call to you. There are so many things. We give so many tips. Some tips might not apply well to you. Walking 3 miles is a lot. Flannery: It is a lot. Meagan: It's a lot, but if you can walk a mile, that's better than not walking any. Flannery: Right. Meagan: Right? So trying to go and find what is sitting right for you in this pregnancy, this baby, and in this birth, and doing those things and then knowing you did all of the things you could that felt right for you. Flannery: Yes. Totally. I totally agree. Meagan: I knew I could do all of these things and baby might still be breech. Baby was breech at my anatomy scan, and then again at 28 weeks at my other growth scan. I remember going into the midwife and just saying, “What can I do?” She was kind of saying, “Nothing will supersede the shep of your uterus. You can do everything. Why don't you just visualize because at least then you will feel like you're doing something?” I was so mad after I left that appointment. I was like, “You can't tell me that I can't do anything to make this baby flip and that it's all down to the shape of my uterus.” I kept trying. I was 28 weeks and I was going to the chiropractor and acupuncture and inversions. This time, I was really good about the inversions even though it gave me heartburn. It worked. The baby did flip. I remember actually listening to a podcast episode from The VBAC Link, and it was about someone who was trying to flip a breech baby. She flipped her breech baby. I was like, “Okay. This gives me so much hope. I can do it.” It paid off because baby did flip. I was so happy. Yeah.At one ultrasound, they did pick up an issue with the kidney. I remember being so upset because it was the same issue that my son had, but very mild. The baby had been breech at that point. I was like, “I'm trying so hard. I'm doing everything right, and it's not working.” History is just repeating itself. That's what it felt like to me, but we ended up finding out that the kidney resolved at the next ultrasound and the baby had flipped. It was like, “Oh, my prayers are being answered.” I couldn't believe it. I was so happy when we got the results from that next ultrasound.We just continued doing the prep. I had planned. I was planning to deliver in the hospital. I had a doula who was amazing. She was just with me every step of the way talking me down when I was anxious and telling me all of the different things I could try and come up with plans for repeat C-section or vaginal birth. I had really wanted to go without the epidural because I didn't mention this, but I had gotten a spinal headache from my spinal last time, and that was just awful. It was almost worse than the C-section pain. Meagan: I've actually heard that because nothing really takes it away full-on. Flannery: Yeah, except lying down. Meagan: Lying down, yeah.Flannery: I was trying to visit my baby in the NICU. I couldn't just be lying in the hospital bed all day. So I was like, if I can avoid an epidural just so that I don't even have the chance of having a spinal headache again, that's what I'm going to do.I was reading Ina May. I was watching all of the YouTube videos and doing everything that I could, but it got to be a lot. It got to be like, oh my gosh, so much work to prep for this birth. The whole time, you don't know if it's a given if you're going ot get that VBAC.Meagan: I know. Flannery: Sometimes, it can feel like, why am I doing this?Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It is hard. It is hard because we don't know until it's done. Flannery: Exactly. Until it's 100% over. Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Flannery: Yeah, so you know, 37 weeks came. 38 weeks, 39 weeks. I was feeling overdue basically since 35 weeks. Meagan: I'm sure. I bet you were like, “I don't know how much longer I can go.” Flannery: I mean, I was definitely hoping to make it to term this time and I was so happy that I did. It was a big, big moment when I hit that 37-week mark, but then I just kept going and going and going. I was like, “Am I ever going to go into labor? What am I doing wrong?” I was walking. It was the end of July and it was so hot out. It was hard to get out there and walk. I eventually hit my due date which was July 25th. I got a membrane sweep on that day which was not super fun. It made me lose my mucus plug and have a few cramps, but nothing else. I was very hopeful that it would kickstart labor, but it did not. Eventually, I thought, “I just have to let go. The baby will come. You might have to have an induction, but you just have to relax.” Finally, finally, 5 days after my due date, which I know is not that long, but it felt long. Meagan: It feels long. It feels long when you are almost 6 weeks after you had your first baby.Flannery: Yes, exactly. I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this period cramp feeling. I was like, “Oh my god. Is this it? Am I in labor?” I managed to calm down and go back to sleep. I put my hand on my belly and was like, “Am I going to get another cramp?” They came, and they came, and they started coming every 20 minutes. Eventually, I had to wake my husband up because it was pretty painful at that point. Maybe 2-3 hours in, I squeezed his hand. He was still sleeping, and he was like, “What's going on?” I was like, “I think I'm in labor.” He said, “I was having a dream that your water broke.”Meagan: Oh my gosh. You guys were both willing it in.Flannery: Yes, exactly. It was like we were on the same wavelength. The contractions kept coming, but they just felt like mild period cramps. I had a midwife appointment at 8:15. They said to go in to see if I was in early labor. She checked me and said I was 3 or 4 centimeters dilated and almost completely effaced. She said, “Your cervix feels labory.” I said, “I think that today is the day.” I was convinced it was prodromal labor or going to fizzle out or something. We went all the way back home. My plan was to labor at home for as long as possible and have my doula come over. I said goodbye to my little 2-year-old. My mom was taking him to hang out with her while we were in the hospital, and I remember she had him say to me, “Good luck, and be strong.”The sound of his little voice saying that to me literally just sustained me through the entire labor. It was replaying in my head in the hardest moments. I could just hear him saying that and it meant so much to me. Yeah. We just hung out at home. I was getting pretty irregular timed contractions. I was wondering why they weren't getting closer together because sometime they would be close together. Sometimes they would be spaced apart, but they were definitely getting stronger. I got in the bath or the shower. I was leaning over, and swaying and moaning, doing all of the things that you're supposed to do– the low-toned moaning and the breathing. I eventually had my doula come over after one really bad contraction. I was like, “What's going on? Why isn't it picking up? Why aren't they getting closer together? Should I go to the hospital? What's going on?” I was really afraid of the car ride because it was about 40 minutes in the car. She said, “I think what is happening is that you have this mental block about the car ride,” because this whole time, I was like, “What if I have the baby in the car? What if I have the baby in the car?” I heard a lot of stories about car babies, and I actually recently had a patient who had a car baby at work. She was like, “I think you have this mental block, and once you get to the hospital, your body is going to let you get fully into labor. So I do think you could go.” I was like, “Okay, okay. Let's go.” I called the midwives and let them know we were coming. My favorite, favorite midwife was on, the one I had hoped this whole time was going to deliver my baby.She was only on for a 12-hour shift, and it was already halfway through her shift. I was like, “Oh gosh. I'm glad she's going to be there.” We drove to the hospital. It was this very hot, very bright, and humid day. I was like, “I don't want to be here. I just want to be in a cold, dark room.”I remember as we turned onto the street that the hospital is in and pulled in the driveway, my contractions boom, boom, boom were ramping up. I was like, “Ashley (my doula), you are so right. This is exactly what happened.” I got into triage. I was making a lot of noise. It was very intense at that point. They checked me. I was 4 centimeters and 100% effaced. I wasn't too disappointed that I wasn't further along because I was like, “This feels pretty intense. I think things are really happening.” But they said, “You picked a very popular day to give birth. There are no rooms available on labor and delivery.” I was like, “No.”Meagan: What?Flannery: I was especially nervous because working in the field, I've seen how a busy unit can really affect the care that is given. It shouldn't be that way, but it totally is. Meagan: It's the reality sometimes. Flannery: Yep. My sister-in-law had recently given birth on a very busy day. She had a very difficult birth, and a very not attentive staff, so that was one of the things I was really afraid of is that I was going to give birth on a super busy day, but my care was excellent thankfully. We eventually waited in triage for a room to be ready, and it was a tub room that became available. There was one tub room in labor and delivery. I was so excited to get in that tub. I jumped right in as soon as we got there. Not jumped, waddled right in. It felt so good. The water felt amazing, but I did find it very hard to maneuver and get in the right position to work through a contraction in the tub because it was weirdly shaped. I didn't stay in there super long, but I was very surprised at how intense the contractions were which sounds silly, but they just really took over. I was hoping to use some coping techniques like music or my rebozo. I brought my massage gun. I brought this whole toolkit of stuff, but in the moment, all that was going through my head during a contraction was cursing and, “I need the epidural. I need the epidural.”I was squeezing my husband's hand so hard. My doula had this spiky, silver ball that you could use for counterpressure so I was squeezing that in my hand so hard breathing. I labored on the toilet for bit. I was in the bed. I was moving around. I could not be lying down. They were having to use continuous monitoring which I didn't really mind. The nurse was very good about not being intrusive about that. She would just follow me around with the monitor. The midwife, who I was hoping to have, was just there with me the whole time. She was holding the monitor onto my belly and speaking kind words to me. I remember going through this terrible contraction and looking over at her. She is just sitting serenely in her rocking chair just looking at me. In my head, I was like, “How can you be so calm? Help me. Do something.” Meagan: I can relate. Flannery: Being present. Meagan: Do something. Help me.Flannery: Help me. Help me. Meagan: Sometimes just being present is what you needed. Flannery: It is. It totally was. She was super hands-off, but in the moment, you're like, “Come on. Somebody do something to help me.” Eventually, I was just sitting on the toilet. The midwife had dimmed the lights. My husband was there speaking to me. I had been making these very loud moans through each contraction, and then during one of them, I started grunting, and I knew exactly what that meant. I was pushing involuntarily. I had been hoping to feel the fetal ejection reflex, and I think that's what this was because my body completely took over. There was no way that I could have not pushed during these contractions. The pain of the contraction was so intense, but it would go away when I pushed. Then I would just feel this really uncomfortable pressure, but at least the pain of the contraction was going away. I had been pushing for maybe 5 minutes, and my midwife was all excited. I was like, “Okay. Please, can you check me?” She was like, “No, just go with your intuition. Listen to your body.” I was like, “No. I need you to check me.” I did not want to be pushing on an incomplete cervix. She did, and I was a 9 and 100% effaced. She was like, “Okay, you can definitely push. That cervix is just going to melt away.” Yes. I tried the nitrous while I was pushing, but I really hated how it restricted my breathing. It also made me throw up everywhere. Meagan: Really? Flannery: Yes. Meagan: Interesting. Flannery: Yes. So much puke. It was so embarrassing. It was splashing on everyone's shoes. I was like, “Oh my god. I'm so sorry.” I pushed on the toilet for a little bit, and then I moved over to the bed. I went over to the bed because when I was on the toilet, I felt something coming out between my legs. I reached down, and it was the bubble of amniotic fluid. It hadn't popped yet. Meagan: Your bag of waters, yeah. Flannery: My bag of waters was coming out. I think I said to my husband, “Do you want to touch it?” He was like, “No.” Meagan: It just feels like a water balloon.Flannery: It felt exactly like a water balloon. I went over to the bed. I got on my side, and I was pushing so hard just totally going with my intuition, but it wasn't the type of peaceful breathing that people tell you to do like the J breathing or anything. There was no way I could breathe through these contractions and these pushes. I was totally holding my breath and bearing down, but that's just what was right for me in the moment. They were saying, “Can you feel the baby moving down?” I was like, “No. Not at all.” I think that's because the bag of waters was still intact. I couldn't feel anything except this really uncomfortable pressure. They said, “Put your fingers inside of yourself and see if you can feel a baby's head.” I put my fingers past the bag of waters, and I could feel the baby's head right there. I pushed, and I could feel the baby move down. It was the most incredible, coolest moment of the birth. I loved that. My midwife said, “Okay, baby's definitely feeling the squeeze.” Her heart rate was going down a little bit. She said, “Turn onto your left side, and with this next contraction, let's have the baby.” I pushed as hard as I possibly could, and just felt this release of pressure. I had no idea what was going on, but I had this cold cloth over my face so I couldn't see anybody, but I heard cheering. Then I felt this warm, wet baby come up onto my belly. I was laughing and crying, and everyone was saying, “Yay! You did it!” I was just like, “Oh my god, what happened?” Meagan: Just like that.Flannery: It was surreal. It was incredible. She started crying right away. We didn't know she was a girl. My husband looked down between her legs. We both looked at the same time and said, “It's a girl.” I said, “I knew you were a girl.” She just stayed with me the whole time right onto my chest. It was just the best feeling. I was so, so overjoyed. Meagan: That is so amazing. It's so amazing with VBAC how the whole room sometimes can just erupt with joy and, “You did it!” and screams and joyful laughs. Oh, man. Flannery: Yeah. It was beautiful. It was so, so intense in a way that I hadn't been expecting it to be. It was a calm, beautiful birth, but the intensity of the contractions and the way that my body completely took over, and I was just along for the ride. I was just riding the waves. It was crazy. Meagan: Truly riding that wave. We talk about it in HypnoBirthing and riding the wave, but that wave came over, and like you said, your body was just like, “Okay, I've got this. Let's go.” Here you went, and this baby came out pretty quickly it sounds like.Flannery: Yeah, she was born at 7:23 PM. I had felt my first contraction at 2:00 AM or something. It wasn't the shortest labor, but once I got to the hospital, it was 5 or 6 hours. It was pretty quick in the end there. She came out en caul. Her head did. Meagan: She did?Flannery: As her body came out, it popped, so she was almost en caul I guess which I thought was so cool. Meagan: Oh my goodness. That is so awesome. I love that. I've seen a couple in my doula career, and it is so cool-looking. A lot of people have said, “Oh, vaginal birth can't have encaul babies.” Oh, yes they can. Yes, they can. 100%. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: I love that you had mentioned, “Once I got to the hospital–”. Sometimes I've had this with doula clients where I'm noticing this pattern of inconsistency and a lot of the times, the client is saying things like, “Should I go? Should I go? Is it okay to be here still? How much longer should we stay?” They are saying these questions because inside, there's a lot going on. I had a client where I said, “You know what? I think we should go. I think you are going to feel safer there. It seems like you are going to feel safer there.” The second we got there, things ramped up. Doctor didn't even make it. The baby slipped out on the bed. Seriously, the second she got there, her body released. It was almost like her epidural. Sometimes, with an epidural, we get an epidural and our body is able to relax. If our mind is not confident or comfortable, we can't let our bodies sometimes. So I love that you pointed that out. I wanted to talk a little bit more really quickly on the types of uterine abnormalities or different types of uteruses. As she was saying, you have a bicornuate uterus which means it's a heart-shaped uterus. I'm probably going to butcher these names especially if you are a provider and you are listening. I don't really know how to say these words. There's an arcuate uterus which is similar to a bicornuate uterus, but with less of a dip in the heart shape. It's like an oddly shaped heart. It's asymmetrical in my mind. That's how I envision it. There's an arcuate uterus, which means there's a divide down the two parts of the membrane wall. Then there's a unicornuate uterus, which is when the fallopian tube has an irregular shape to it. Then I always butcher this one. It's didelphys. I don't even know how to say it. Flannery: Sorry. I can't help you on that one. Meagan: I'm going to stop trying. That is when you are born with two uteruses which does happen. One baby can be in one uterus, and we can have another uterus over here. Those are all abnormalities of the uteruses. Of course, we have different shapes, sizes, and all of the things. I wanted to just have a link in the show notes for that as well so you can read more on each of those types of uteruses. Then tell me if this is the right link. I found Jackson's Chance Foundation.Flannery: Yes. That's what it is. Meagan: Why parking matters. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: It looks like this is inspired. It's a foundation inspired by another person's story, another NICU baby's story. It said that–Flannery: Yeah. I believe that Jackson's parents set it up. Meagan: Yeah. Wow. This story is precious and inspiring. Wow. These parents are incredible. Then it does show that you can donate or sponsor a parking pass. They talk about the why and all of that. This is so awesome. I'm going to make sure that we have that in the show notes. If you know a NICU baby, or you know someone who is going to have a NICU baby, don't be like Flannery and find out later. This is how we all learn, and this is how. We find out when it's too late, then we have to go to show on. So, thank you for sharing that tip. I've actually never heard of it, but that's probably because I'm not a NICU mom.Flannery: Yeah. Yeah. I hope it helps someone. Meagan: Yes. Thank you again so much for sharing your story.Flannery: Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Thank you so much. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Anni is a mom of two young girls living in Okinawa, Japan where her husband is stationed with the Marine Corps. In addition to her work as a non-profit grant writer, she volunteers with the Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum Coalition and hosts their podcast, Military Birth Talk. A big challenge for military parents is creating care plans for older children during birth. They often live far away from family or have recently moved and don't have a village yet. Anni's care plan was shaken up as her induction kept getting pushed back and conflicted with her family's travels.Though her plans changed, Anni was able to go into spontaneous labor and avoid the induction she didn't really want! Her VBAC was powerful and all went smoothly. She was amazed at the difference in her recovery. Another fun part of Anni's episode– she connected and met up with two other VBAC mamas living in Okinawa through our VBAC Link Facebook Community! We love hearing how TVL has helped you build virtual and in-person villages. Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum CoalitionHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link, and I am with my friend, Anni, today sharing her stories. Anni is one of our military mamas. This is the final episode of the week of military episodes. So even though it is a little bit after Veteran's Day, that's okay. We are celebrating our military mamas today. Welcome to the show, Anni. Anni: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here this week. Meagan: Me too. I also can't believe that you are here right now. We were just chatting before the podcast about time. You guys, it is 4:50 AM where she is at. I just can't even believe it. You're in Japan. Anni: Yeah. We live in Okinawa, so I've got to do stuff at weird times if I want to stay in touch with anybody in the States. It's the military thing. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Yes. She is in Japan. She is a mom of two young girls and like she said, she is living in Okinawa, Japan where her husband is stationed with the Marine Corps. Her personal values are community, joy, purpose, and creativity which all drive how she spends her time. In addition to her work as a non-profit grant writer, she also volunteers with the Military Birth Resource Network and hosts their podcast, Military Birth Talk. So mamas, if you are a military mom, and I'm sure a lot of people are flocking to these episodes this week, go listen to Military Birth Talk. Can you tell us a little bit more about Military Birth Talk? Anni: Yeah. So as you said, it's a part of the non-profit Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum Coalition, so MBRNPC for short. That's an organization that provides resources for military families who are in the perinatal stage of life, so if you've just moved to a new duty station and you're like, “Oh, I need a doula who's covered by Tricare,” you can go to their website and reach out to one of their chapter leaders. They provide that kind of resource. Also, there is sort of an advocacy wing of the organization that works on policy changes impacting military families. This is our podcast, Military Birth Talk. Right now, we're featuring mostly just military birth stories, but we're in our third season and this season, we're going to be adding some additional episodes like policy conversations, interviews with experts, and that kind of thing. So, as you said, if you're a military-affiliated person listening and you want to hear some firsthand accounts of what it's like to give birth within the military healthcare system, we'd love for you to tune in. Meagan: I love it. Thank you so much for doing that and explaining more. Anni: Yeah. Meagan: I just can't wait for you to share your stories. I do have a Review of the Week, and then we'll jump right in. Today's review is by RiverW88. It says, “Gives me hope.” It says, “As a mama who had an unnecessary Cesarean and a poorly planned VBAC attempt that failed and resulted in a Cesarean, listening to these stories and information gives me hope for the future. Not only do I hope to have a third baby and a successful VBAC, but as a doula and an experienced birth photographer, I cannot wait to support other women through their VBAC journeys. I look forward to sending my clients to your website and podcast, and not too far in the future, take your VBAC doula course for myself. I love the way you present facts and inform while giving mamas a platform to share positive stories about a topic that is so scary for so many people thanks to the lack of education out there.” Oh my goodness, that is so true. There is such a lack of education out there and that is why we created the VBAC course that we did and the VBAC doula certification course. So, if you are a parent looking to up your game for VBAC, or if you are looking as a doula to learn more about supporting clients who are wanting a VBAC, definitely check us out at thevbaclink.com.Okay, Anni. Let's jump in. Anni: All right. So I am excited to share two birth stories. I'll focus mostly on my VBAC since that's why we are all here, but I'll give a little bit of context about my first birth. It was pretty routine honestly. I had a breech baby, and there were no breech vaginal birth providers in my area at the time, so that's the spark notes version. But to give a little bit more context, at the time, we were stationed in North Carolina in Newburn, North Carolina. There are a few providers out there, but not a ton. It's sort of remote-ish, but because my husband is in the Marine Corps, we were a little bit limited. I actually was on Tricare Select at the time, so for those of you listening out there who aren't familiar with military healthcare, as a spouse, you can be on Tricare Select which is where you get to choose your own provider. You don't have to be seen by the military healthcare system. You pay a little bit extra. Or, you can be on Tricare Prime which is completely free, but you have to be seen within the military network. I was on Select at the time, so I was paying a little bit extra to choose my own provider which is kind of funny because there was really only one provider in that town anyway. This is one of the reasons why flash forward to a few years later, I wanted to be a part of the Military Birth Talk podcast because we often as military families get a lot of advice that doesn't really fit our life. One of those pieces of advice is to pick your own provider. Do whatever you can to pick your own provider. Sometimes, that's just not possible. That's just not true for military families, right? It can be true for a number of reasons, but it's very true for military families, so choosing my own provider was not really that possible given where we were located. That didn't really come into play until the end when I found out that our baby was breech. Generally, the pregnancy was great. It was a really empowering, positive experience for me. I loved learning about birth. I really hadn't been involved at all in the “birth world” until I became pregnant, then I totally immersed myself. I was super excited to give birth. I was super excited for all of the little quirky things like going into labor and my water breaking, seeing my mucus plug come out, and all of the birth nerd things that I had heard people talk about on all of the podcasts like this one that I had been listening to throughout my pregnancy. It was a pretty routine, positive pregnancy. About halfway through, we found out that we would be moving to Kansas at about 6 weeks postpartum. This is another one of those military things that people would say, “Oh, enjoy nesting and have a really quiet, peaceful postpartum.” I was like, “Okay, that goes out the window. Our house will be packed up by the time the baby is born,” because with the military, you have to send stuff super early. There was no nesting, no quiet postpartum period. There was a cross-country drive at 6 weeks postpartum. That was my first wake-up call around how birthing within the military community can be unique. Up until then, because I was on Tricare Select, I was like, “Oh, I'm not really a part of this military thing when it comes to my healthcare.” That started to shift around then. Then around 36 weeks, we got a scan and found out that the baby was breech. I was so upset. I had just spent the whole pregnancy looking forward to this experience that I now wasn't going to have. It felt like I had been studying for a test or preparing for a final exam that now I wasn't going to get to take. That's obviously not true at all, but emotionally, that's how it had felt. I had gotten so excited about the possibility of seeing what my body could do. It almost felt like I had a sports car and now I was going to be forced to drive it in automatic or something. It just felt like I wasn't getting a chance to experience this thing that I had gotten so excited about. We were really upset, and my husband was too because he had gotten really excited about being able to support me in labor and all of those things. We decided not to do an ECV. I'm sure your listeners all know what that is. Partially, it was because I wasn't a great candidate for it. My placenta was anterior, so that increased the possibility of an emergency outcome. I had a high volume of amniotic fluid, so that also decreases the chances of success, and the position that the baby was in, she was completely breech. She wasn't transverse. She was totally in the wrong position. We were like, “I think we're not great candidates. Let's not do it.” We just booked the C-section. The C-section was fine. It wasn't traumatic, but especially now having had my VBAC and being able to compare the two, it wasn't a great day. I had surgery, anesthesia, and felt nauseous all day, I couldn't really hold the baby until 9:00 that night. The silver lining of that, I would say, is that my husband got to spend the whole day holding the baby because I didn't really feel well. I think that was really special for him after having 9 months of this abstract idea of a baby, and now he got to spend that day with her. I look back fondly on that aspect of it, but otherwise, it was surgery. The recovery was fine. I thought it was, at that point, again, now having had the VBAC and knowing the difference, not really that bad. It was a week and a few days of significant pain, and then after that, it was not too terrible. But again, just not the birth experience that I had hoped for. Then after that, I was not one of those people who was immediately gung-ho about having a VBAC. I think I was a little– I felt so disappointed that I didn't really want to go there in my mind. I was like, “You know, it might just be easier to schedule another Cesarean and not worry about the emotional disappointment.” I didn't want to do that either, so I just didn't really want to think about birth at all for a while. Meagan: That's a valid feeling and very normal. Anni: Yeah, so I took a big break mentally from birthy stuff. We did have a pregnancy in between our two daughters' births that actually ended at around 19 weeks due to Trisomy 18 which is a genetic chromosomal abnormality that is incompatible with life, so that is its own whole story. I don't like skipping over it because we appreciate his life, and it's a part of our story. We love our baby boy that we didn't get to spend enough time with. After that, I got pregnant again when we moved to Okinawa. When my first daughter was about a year old or a little bit less, we found out that we would be moving overseas to Okinawa, Japan. We arrived. We had the 19-week loss, and then a few months later, I got pregnant again with our second daughter who is now almost 9 months old. The pregnancy was so awesome for the most part. I had a little bit of anxiety around having just had the loss and feeling a little bit guarded. I would say it took a little bit of time to actually really be able to believe that she would be born. I think for a long time, I just didn't expect it to work. I think that was compounded by my Cesarean experience. I had this feeling of, maybe my body just doesn't work or something. That took a little while to get over, but for the most part, the pregnancy was great. Because we live overseas, we are not required to be seen on base, but the off-base options are very limited here, especially in Okinawa. The specific, weird thing about the community here is that because Okinawa is such a small island which many people don't know that it is a small island. It's not even off the coast of Japan. It's floating in the middle of the ocean. Meagan: Really? I did not know that. Anni: Yes. If you look it up on the map, you'd see that it's just a dot on the ocean. Because it's so remote, the local vibe here is basically that if the American military is going to have so much presence on this tiny island, they should be caring for their own people which is reasonable. So getting seen out in town is not as easy as it is back in the States because the options are just very limited. The other thing is that really, the only other option that Americans have out here as far as being seen “out in town” which just means off base, is a birth clinic and they don't accept VBAC patients there. Really, my only option, if I wanted to do the VBAC, was to be seen at the military hospital. So, my care there, I was being seen through Family Medicine. You can either be seen by OB or Family Med. I chose Family Med because I wanted to just continue to be seen by my regular PCM. I thought that that continuity of care was nice. Everything went really smoothly. I was sort of on the fence about the VBAC. I knew I wanted it, but again, I was emotionally guarded. Once we got into the second trimester and I started thinking more about birth, I started doing a little bit more digging thing, reading The VBAC Link Community posts a little bit more carefully. Actually, funny story, I posted something in that group. I can't even remember what the question was. Oh, it was about induction actually because it looked likely that we would want to schedule an induction so that we could plan to have family fly out to be with us. They had to buy plane tickets and stuff. Even though that was not at all what I wanted to do from a VBAC perspective, it felt like what we would need to do as far as getting care for our toddler. I posted in that group to try to see if people wouldn't mind sharing their positive VBAC induction stories. Two of the people who responded saw my picture and they were like, “That's in Okinawa. We're here too,” so we met up for coffee and I'm good friends with them now. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Anni: Yeah, so shoutout to Sarah and Tatiana if you're listening. That was really nice to feel like I had a little bit of community here in that way around this very specific topic. I started really committing to the idea of a VBAC. I also, when I say committing, my goal was that I really wanted to have a joyful birth, I didn't want to suffer. I wanted it to be joyful. I wanted to feel present like I didn't have the last time. My thinking about it was basically that those were my priorities. If it ends up being that having another Cesarean is what would get me those things, I would rather have that than lose the joy and the feeling of being present. I'm not willing to suffer just to get this outcome. That was my list in my head. I got a wonderful doula named Bridget who was totally on board with my priorities. She and I really aligned around our level of risk tolerance around VBAC because the hospital here on Okinawa, the Naval hospital, had a couple of specific things that they wanted for VBAC. They wanted me to come in right away as soon as I felt any contractions or if my water broke. They wanted me to come in right away, whereas my preference initially was to have labored at home. So that was one example of one of the things Bridget and I talked about around, okay. What's our preference around how we handle this? Do we want to say, “No thanks. We're going to labor at home for as long as we can”, or do we both feel more comfortable just getting to the space where you're going to deliver and knowing that you'll be there and they'll be watching to make sure that everything's fine? Where I shook out on that was that I'd actually rather just go to the hospital sooner. That was actually fine with me. It was really nice to have somebody to talk through that with. It was nice that we felt aligned in that way. She is really used to working with military families. She is a military spouse herself with two young boys, so that was really a really supportive relationship. My husband felt that way with her as well, and she is still a good friend. That was a really important part, I think, of my preparing for the VBAC. The hospital providers were super supportive which I was very surprised about. I didn't receive any pushback. Anybody who I saw during the course of my pregnancy was totally in support. In fact, I had a TOLAC counseling which they require so they can tell you all of the risks and benefits and whatever. The provider who gave me the TOLAC counseling, I think assumed that I would be coming in blind, so she did her whole spiel. At the end, she was like, “What do you think? What do you think you might decide?” I was like, “Yeah, no. I'm definitely going for the VBAC.” She was like, “Okay, great. I think that's a good choice.” I was surprised by that. I think people, myself included, expected military hospitals to be very antiquated or by the book or very risk averse, which they are, but in this case, it was really nice to see that they had caught on to the fact that in many cases, a VBAC is not actually more risky. Meagan: Risky. Anni: Yeah, exactly. That was really nice to feel like I wasn't going to need to be going in with any kind of armor on. So fast forward to the birth, as I had mentioned, I had “wanted” to schedule an induction for logistical reasons. The way that the hospital here works because they are chronically understaffed as many military hospitals are, if you're having an elective induction, so if it's not medically necessary, they give you a date, then you call the morning of that date and they tell you what time to come in based on the staffing ratios. Our family who we had called to come for the birth that we had scheduled this whole thing around, arrived, and the next morning, we called as it was our scheduled induction day. I will say that the only family who could come was my sister-in-law and brother-in-law, so my husband's sister and her husband. She's a surgeon back in New York, so she only had a 6-day period that they could come. That was part of the reason why we wanted to schedule an induction. They got here. The next morning, we called the hospital, and they said, “Oh, we're too busy right now. We can't safely bring you in, so call back at 4:00.” We called back at 4:00, and they were like, “We're still too busy. We're sorry, but you have to call back tomorrow morning.” My doula had warned me that this was very common. She was like, “Expect maybe 12-24 hours,” but I was just in this manifesting headspace that everything was going to go great, so I was super disappointed. We went to sleep. We were like, “Oh, we were supposed to be at the hospital tonight.” We woke up in the morning, called the hospital, and again, they said, “We are still too busy. For the third time, we can't safely bring you in, so you have to call back at 4:00.” I took a long walk by the ocean. We got lunch. We just killed time. I took my toddler to the playground. I'm like, “Okay, this is it.” We called back at 4:00 PM that day and they were like, “I'm so sorry. We're still too busy.” This was the fourth time. By this time, there was actually a day between when our family arrived and when we started calling. By this time, there was no way they were still going to be here if we had to go for the induction, have what was inevitably going to be a long induction because I never labored with my first, spend the 24-48 hours at the hospital, and then come back, there was no way our family was still going to be here.I was so stressed. They were like, “We know we've pushed you now four times. Why don't you call back tonight at 8:00 or something? We think we're going to get a discharge between now and then. We'll see if you can come in at 10:00, and we'll see if we can start the induction.” I was like, “You know what? Our schedule is already messed up at this point. It sounds like it's already a crazy situation over there at the hospital. I don't really want to go into that mess, and I don't really want to start an induction at 10:00 at night.” I was like, “Can we just come in tomorrow first thing, at 5:00 in the morning?” By this point, it was going to be a Saturday. We were supposed to go in on a Thursday. It got pushed all day Thursday and all day Friday. I said, “Can we push it to the first thing on Saturday morning?” The charge nurse who I talked to said, “Yes, that's fine.” We go to bed. We wake up in the morning, so happy that finally, today was the day. We say goodbye to our toddler. We get to the hospital at 5:30. It's super quiet. Nobody was there. We bring the bags up. We unpack. I had affirmations that I had printed out, Christmas lights, music, essential oils, and all of those things. We start unloading the bag. The nurse comes in and gets me hooked up to monitors to do a non-stress test. We do that. I'm sitting there on the monitors for a half hour. Then she comes in and she says, “The NST looks good.” She starts getting an IV ready because one of their protocols is that they want VBAC patients to have two IVs actually. Meagan: Okay, what is the deal with the two IV thing? I've been hearing this. I apparently need to dig really far into it. Why two IVs? Anni: They said that one was for hydration. Meagan: Okay. Hydration, like for ORs?Anni: Yeah, and the other is for medication, so if they need to hang a quick bag of something like Pitocin– I don't even know. It's so silly because I didn't have anything. When I eventually did get the IVs, I didn't have anything in either one. The second one was really hard to get in. They spent an hour and a half trying to get it in. I didn't even have anything in the first one. I was like, “Nothing is in the first one. If you need to give me meds–” Whatever. Meagan: Stop the hydration and put the meds in, or maybe they need that extra port that they can put in. That's interesting. Anni: Yeah, so she goes to put the IV in. A nurse comes in and goes, “Wait, don't put that IV in.” I'm like, “Why?” They were like, “We don't know. The provider wants to talk to you.” The provider comes back in and she was like, “I'm so sorry, but we didn't realize that you were a VBAC. We weren't tracking that. You got pushed, and we won't induce you on a weekend because we only have one OB and we want to have two,” so we had to go home. They were like, “You have to go home, and you can't come back until Monday.” I burst into tears. This poor OB was like, “You can totally yell at me.” I'm like, whatever. It was so ridiculous. We go home. We were like, “All right. Now, we don't know what we will do for childcare.” Thank goodness, my sister lives in San Francisco. Her husband had a work trip that week that got canceled, so she was like, “I can actually just fly out and be there for you.” She has two kids, so that's why she wasn't going to come before, but now her husband was going to be home. She hopped on a plane right when that happened. We go home, and we were like, “Okay. We will be coming in on Monday.” We go to bed that night on Saturday, and I woke up at 2:00 AM with contractions in labor. Meagan: Oh yay! Anni: I could cry now thinking about it. It was the beginning of a day that was the culmination of everything I had wanted from a birth experience for the last 3.5 years. I had been having a little bit of prodromal labor that week, but it would be one contraction at 2:00 AM and then nothing else. I woke up at 2:00 AM. My husband was sleeping on the couch by this point in pregnancy because I had one of those massive pillows, and he was like, “I can't. I don't fit.” Meagan: I can't compete with the pillow. Anni: Exactly. I was like, “I'm sorry, but I choose the pillow.” He was on the couch. I woke up at 2:00, and I was like, okay. I'm having a contraction. 15 minutes later, I had another one. I was like, “Okay, I had two, but 15 minutes apart is a long time.” But then, 15 minutes later on the dot, I had another one. Then it was every 15 minutes for the next 2 hours from 2:00-4:00 AM. My dogs were there. I was just really enjoying it, honestly. I was feeling emotional. Nothing was super uncomfortable yet, so it was just period cramps and that kind of a feeling. But I was like, “Okay.” We were supposed to take our in-laws to the airport that day because that was the day that they were leaving. I'm like, “Okay. I know how this works. I've heard a bajillion birth stories. I'll wake up at 6:00. The house will get busy. The contractions will peter out. I'll have the whole day to do whatever, then they'll probably pick up tomorrow night after I put my toddler to bed.” So in my head, I'm like, that's the day. That's what's going to happen. The plan was that I was going to drive my in-laws to the airport that morning because my husband was going to pick my sister up late Sunday night. That way, we could split the trips. I didn't want to do the late-night run. 6:00 in the morning rolls around. I wake up my husband and I'm like, “Hey, I've been having contractions for 2 hours, but no big deal. I'll take Megan and Paul to the airport,” which is an hour away. “I'll be back later.” He was like, “What are you talking about? You're not going to take them. Nobody's going to the airport an hour away if you're having contractions. They can take a taxi. They'll be fine.” I'm like, “No. They're definitely going to stop when everybody gets up. That's always what happens. He's like, “No. I don't care if nothing happens today. You're not driving to the airport if you're having contractions.” I was like, “Fine. That's silly, but whatever.” Everyone wakes up. I'm still having contractions, but they were very short. They were 30 seconds long and very tolerable. There were a couple that I was like, “Okay, I want to get on hands and knees and hang out on my yoga ball.” But for the most part, they were super easy. 8:00 rolls around. We called a taxi for my in-laws and we actually had a babysitter lined up for that day anyway. I can't remember why, but we decided just to keep her basically and have an easier day. The babysitter arrived at 8:30 and my husband went out. Right as she arrived, my husband went with my toddler to go do something quickly, so I was alone with Brittany, our nanny. I had this one contraction and I was like, “I don't want to talk to her.” We had just met her at that point. She was new to us, so I was like, “Small talk feels really hard right now. I can't make small talk.” I was like, “Hmm. That's kind of interesting.”Meagan: That's a sign. Anni: But in my head, it wasn't. It was going to be a 48-hour experience. That was just in my head. Again, I didn't labor at all with my first, so in my head, this was a first time birth. My body has not done this before. Once our toddler was with the babysitter, I went upstairs and I got back in bed with my dogs. I was just having contractions. I was snuggling with my dogs just trying to stay present. My husband came in and hung out with me for a little while. He said, “You know, if you're still feeling good, I'm just going to run over to the commissary (the grocery store on base) and grab some essentials because we didn't think we'd be here this weekend, and now we're out of milk and eggs and whatever, so I'll go grab some things, and I'll be back in an hour.” I was like, “Great, no problem.” He left around 9:00. At 9:45, I was like, “I can't do this alone anymore.” I feel crazy saying that because it was way too fast to be saying that, but I texted him saying, “I think I need you to come back.” He came back. He brought me some fruit salad because I hadn't eaten anything yet that morning which I could barely get down. I was in labor for sure, but in my head, I still was like, “This is going to be such a long experience. Nothing is progressing yet.”I got in the shower. That spaced things out for maybe one long gap between contractions, and then right after that, they started increasing. They were getting closer together, and they were more like 7 minutes apart, then 6 minutes apart. I was having to moan through them a little bit. We called Bridget, our doula, to be like, “Hey, what should we do?” I was able to talk to her with no problem in between contractions. I was fully present and lucid, so I was like, “Okay, this means I'm not in active labor because I'm totally present. I can have a conversation,” but then during the contractions, I would really need to put the phone down and moan. Meagan: Okay, I was going to say, but that was in between contractions. Anni: But in my head, again, I was so emotionally guarded around, “I don't want to expect that this is going to happen. I want to expect the worst.” She was like, “Okay, yeah. They are 6 minutes apart. I would really recommend that you wait until it's been at least 1 or 2 hours when the contractions have been that close together before you consider going in, but if you want to call the hospital and ask them what their preference is, you can do that.” I was just starting to feel really anxious about laboring in the car. I also just had this feeling that I just wanted to be there. I just wanted to be where we were going to be and feel settled, which surprised me. I thought I would want to stay at home for a long time, but it was the feeling when you have an afternoon flight. You don't want to hang out at home before your flight. You just want to get to the airport. That was how I felt. I was surprised by that feeling. We called the hospital. We told them what was happenind, and they actually did say, “Yeah, why don't you just come on in?” We told Bridget. I was a little nervous. I was like, “Ooh, I bet she's going to think that this is a misstep. We are going in so early.” But I just was like, “That's what I want to do.” We got in the car. We went over to the hospital and got checked in triage. I was a 1. I had never had a cervical check before ever because my last baby was breech and in this pregnancy, I hadn't been checked yet. I was super, super tense, and the provider, the nurse, was like, “I can't really get up there. Your cervix is really high and hard. I can't really get a good feel, but you're definitely a 1 or a 2.” So I was like, “Okay, not great.” She left and was gone for a while, I guess, to talk to the provider, and then when she came back in, my water broke, and there was meconium in the water. So I was like, “Okay. All of these things are not great. I'm at a 1. I'm a VBAC. My water is broken, and there is meconium. All of these things are going to make the providers feel urgency around getting this thing going.”But I was like, “Ugh. I definitely don't want to get an epidural if I'm only at a 1 because that's a terrible idea, but I also really don't want to get Pitocin if I don't have an epidural.” I was really hoping that I could have a natural birth without any medication, but I also again, going back to my list of priorities, I was like, “I want the joy. I want to be present. I don't want to suffer. If I can check all of those boxes and also experience an unmedicated birth, then that would be amazing, but I'm not willing to sacrifice any of those things.” So after my water broke, they brought me into the delivery room. I just started laboring. They came in maybe a half hour later and said, “We probably want to start some Pitocin.” I was like, “Let me wait on that. Just give me a minute to think about things,” which we can always do. Ask for more time if nothing is an emergency. Thank goodness I did that because in the half hour, I was thinking about it– not thank goodness that there was an emergency, but there was an emergency, and the only OB who was there that day got called away to do emergency surgery, so he became unavailable for the next several. The Pitocin was off the table for the time being, and so I just got to labor on my own. Bridget arrived, and she had me get into a whole bunch of funky positions. The baby was posterior which I knew because I was feeling this all in my back, and so she was having me get into all of these really uncomfortable, asynchronous positions with my legs in all kinds of weird places. It was super uncomfortable, but I knew that it was effective. I kept laboring. As I said, they had trouble getting the second IV in. That took a really long time even though there was nothing in the first one they had put in. I guess I also had two monitors on me. They were Bluetooth monitors, so one for me and one for the baby. I don't remember that at all, but my doula said that they were messing with them the whole time because they kept moving. I don't remember that. I think I was just more in labor land than I realized. But I had the two monitors. They finally got that second IV in. The anesthesiologist came to do it, and after he did the IV, he gave me the whole epidural spiel which they have to do for legal reasons which I wasn't paying any attention to because I was just moaning and groaning and ignoring him. So he left. I kept laboring, and then around– we got to triage at noon and we got checked into our room around 1:00. Around 3:30, they came back in and asked about the Pitocin. I was like, “I need to get more information about this because I need to figure out what I'm going to do for pain management if we're doing Pitocin.” Bridget was like, “Why don't you just get checked again and see where you are?” I was a 7. So either I made a ton of progress in that 2 hours, or I wasn't really a 1 when I got there, and my body was stressed and it clamped up, or the provider couldn't get a good read. Whatever it was, in my head, I went from a 1 to a 7. Meagan: Massive change. Anni: Yes. I think I giggled. I was just so happy. So they were like, “Okay, well we don't need to do any augmentation. You're progressing just fine.” I was like, “Okay. We're doing this. We're just going to keep going.” Bridget recommended that I go to the bathroom because I hadn't peed in a while. I went over to the toilet, emptied my bladder, then had a huge contraction and felt super like I needed to get off the toilet immediately. I hopped off and went back to the bed. A little bit of time passed, and then I started feeling like I had to throw up, but it wasn't a nausea throw-up. It was like my abdomen was heaving kind of thing. I was like, “Am I pushing right now?” It was this involuntary feeling. I knew about the fetal ejection reflex, but in my head, I thought that was more of a sustained bearing down feeling and this was a more grunty thing. Everybody heard what I was doing, and the nurse who was phenomenal, her name is Cassie. She was such a godsend. She checked and she was like, “Yep, you have no cervix left. You're good to go.” This was at 5:00. Meagan: 2 hours later. Anni: Yeah. I just couldn't believe it. I still thought it was going to be hours and hours and hours because I was so guarded, but it wasn't. There were about 15 minutes between when she checked me and when I really started pushing. I labored down a little bit. The providers lost the baby's heartbeat at one point which is super common when they're in the birth canal, but because this provider knew I was a VBAC, and he had experienced some things before and was very risk-averse, he wanted to do an internal fetal monitor. I was like, “You know what? Not ideal. I don't love it, but that's fine.” I wanted to maintain that calm environment in the room. I didn't want people to start freaking out. I was like, “That's fine. Do what you need to do.” They did the internal fetal monitor. I rolled over to my hip. I wasn't having those grunting urges anymore, but I could feel the baby moving down on her own. I felt her head start to stretch me, then she sucked back in. It started to feel scary like, okay. There's no way out at this point. I'm the only one who can do this. I'm going to feel all of this.I gave a couple of really strong pushes. Up until then, I had been breathing and pushing because that's what my pelvic floor therapist and I had talked about, and I had really practiced that. But the provider again, had nervousness about the heartbeat. The internal monitor wasn't picking up what they wanted it to, so the nurse was like, “Okay. Let's give this one really good push.” I gave one really good push. I felt her head come out, then shortly thereafter, her body. My husband said, “Oh my gosh, she's here. You did it!” They put her right up on my chest, and it was just incredible. Looking back, now I say it was incredible. In the moment, I think I was completely shocked because it was so fast. I had a ton of adrenaline. I had the labor shakes, so my chin was chattering. My husband moved the baby down a little bit because he was like, “You're going to knock her in the head.” It was just amazing. I felt so empowered. It took me a few hours to come down from feeling shocked, but 3 hours later, we were in our room with the baby, and I had showered already at that point, walked myself to the maternity room where we would spend the next day, and it was just so beautiful. I look back on that day all the time in my head. I relive that day all the time in my head. I would do it again in a heartbeat. It was so incredible, and it was an experience that I will draw strength from for the rest of my life. It was just amazing, yeah. Meagan: Oh my goodness. And being pushed, and pushed, and pushed, and having a plan, and then it changing, and having a plan, and it changing, I mean, it was meant to work out this way. Anni: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: I'm sure you can feel that now. Oh, it is just amazing. It just goes to show that sometimes first-time vaginal births don't take 40 hours. They can go quickly if your cervix is ready and your body is ready and your baby is ready. I love that your doula was like, “All right, let's get in these positions.” You talked about going from a 1 to a 7. You may very well could have been a 1, but positional changes and getting better application with the baby's head to the cervix can make a big difference. Anni: Yeah. I will say I think one of the things that also made a huge difference was that I mentioned I had seen a pelvic floor physical therapist. I had started seeing her around 20 weeks because I thought I had appeased knees at one point. I was like, “I want to nip that in the bud right away.” I went to go see her, and we really worked a lot on relaxing my pelvic floor and how I would need to do that during labor. I thought I was one of those people who was like, “I'm relaxed. I can relax my pelvic floor. That just means not clenching,” but it's so much more intentional than that. Meagan: It is. Anni: Practicing actually really relaxing my pelvic floor through pregnancy was so helpful because I knew what I needed to do during a contraction to not tense up at all. I think that really helped things progress. Even with a posterior baby, usually that can take a really long time, but it was a really fast labor. I give my pelvic floor therapist at Sprout Physical Therapy if anybody is looking, she was wonderful. Meagan: I love that so much. I love that you pointed out that you did it before pregnancy. A lot of people, me included– I didn't think of pelvic floor therapy before I had my baby. Why would I have pelvic floor therapy before I even had a vaginal birth? That's just where my mind was, but it's just so, so good. Now, I personally have seen a pelvic floor therapist, and I understand the value and the impact that they can make so much more. Like you said, they teach you how to connect and truly release and relax because we might think we are, but we are not. They can help avoid things like really severe tearing and that as well. Anni: I had no tearing. I had a first-degree tear. It was easy peasy. Yeah. Meagan: Yes, yes. I have heard that a lot of people who do pelvic floor therapy can reduce their chances of tearing based on what they know and how they connect to the pelvic floor. Anni: Yeah. Yeah. I'm just super grateful and so grateful for resources like this. I think storytelling is such a powerful tool and listening to all kinds of VBAC stories was really helpful, even the ones that didn't go as planned because that's always a possibility. I really wanted to be mentally strong against that. I didn't want to be crushed and feel like I lost my hopes and dreams. I wanted to come out on the other side of what happened with some sense of acceptance, so hearing all of the stories was so helpful, and having the community here and having my VBAC friends here in Oki was amazing. Meagan: I absolutely adore The VBAC Link Community, and I love hearing that, not only did I meet people who were my friends online, but we connected in our own community because there are Women of Strength all over. You never know, if you reach out there, you will probably have someone down the street. There are thousands and thousands of people in there, so I highly suggest to go to The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. Answer the questions and dive in because there are also stories being shared there daily. Anni: Yeah. I felt so reassured. I think I got 40 responses when I asked for positive VBAC induction stories. There were so many responses, so I was like, “Okay. I can totally do this.” It made the pregnancy easier. Regardless of what the outcome was going to be, it alleviated the anxiety that I had about the induction. So even though it didn't end up going that way, it definitely made a positive impact on my pregnancy. Meagan: Absolutely, and I know that VBAC groups can make a negative impact as well like it did for me. I was in the wrong VBAC supportive group that I thought was supportive and it just wasn't. That is why we created this one. There are other amazing ones as well, but that's why we created this one because we do not handle the B. S. We just do not tolerate it. It is a loving community and only a loving community. That is what it's for. Anni: Yeah. I was also in the chat feature. There was a chat group for people who were giving birth in the same month. I was in the January group. That was an amazing group of people too. I got so familiar with those names and those stories. People were so supportive of every outcome. There were people there who got their VBACs. There were people who ended in unplanned Cesareans. There were people who at the last minute, decided that they wanted a Cesarean, and everybody was loving and supportive. It was just an awesome vibe. Meagan: It really is. Oh, that makes me so happy because these are exactly the goals that we had when we created these groups. Oh my goodness. Anni, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. Congratulations on your VBAC, and I am so, so happy for you. Anni: Thank you so much, Meagan. It was so awesome to be here. I love this podcast. Thank you for everything that you do, and thank you so much for having me on here today. Oh, do you know what? I had one more thing I wanted to share with Tricare, everybody. I'm a Tricare doula. I work with Tricare here in doula. Definitely talk to your Tricare rep if you're out there listening to see because some of them do offer coverage for doulas. Anni: Yes. Meagan: I just wanted to let you know. Anni: Yes. They just announced a new set of regulations around that. Literally, new laws just came out around that so there are new details around that, but if you are on Tricare Select, you have the option to have your doula be covered by Tricare. Just a quick advocacy plug here, if you're being seen at a military hospital, you cannot access that benefit which is a huge problem because Servicemembers have to give birth at military hospitals, so Servicemembers themselves cannot access this benefit which is a huge problem. That's one of the things MBRNPC is trying to advocate to change coming up. So if you are listening out there and you have any access to any kind of advocacy channels, please get the word out that we need to fix that. Meagan: Yes. It does need to be fixed. Talking about hiring the doulas because it's Select and you go outside, we do have to have referrals from that provider. We have to actually have a referral from that provider for the doula before we can start, and we cannot start before 20 weeks so just to let you know. Even though a lot of people hire doulas early on, Tricare does not allow us to be seen until that 20-week mark. So gear up, plan, know that at 20 weeks, you can start seeing a doula and learn more about it. Oh my gosh. Thank you again so dang much. Anni: Thanks, Meagan. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

What happens when a baby suddenly turns breech at 36 weeks? For Kaitlin Moore, this meant a hard pivot and lots of research to weigh her options between trying to get her baby to flip back or having a surgical birth. She shares the difficulties of finding the right provider to do an External Cephalic Version (ECV), and how elated she was when the ECV was successful and she could wait until her (now head-down) baby was ready to be born, to ultimately have the mostly unmedicated vaginal birth she had hoped for (despite it starting with an induction for early rupture of her waters)!Sponsor offers - TIME SENSITIVE! NEEDED - Get 20% off at ThisIsNeeded.com with code BIRTHFULHONEYLOVE - Get 20% off at HoneyLove.com/Birthful AQUATRU - Get 20% off at AquaTru.com with code BIRTHFULIXL LEARNING - Get 20% off a membership at ixl.com/TODAYGet the most out of this episode by checking out the resources, transcript, and links on its show notes page.  If you liked this episode, listen to our interview on What You Need to Know About Obstetricians (OBs) and our episode on Why A Midwife Might Be Just What You Need.You can connect with Birthful @BirthfulPodcast on Instagram or email us at podcast@Birthful.com. If you enjoy what you hear, download Birthful's Postpartum Plan FREE when you sign up for our weekly newsletter! You can also sign up for Adriana's Own Your Birth online BIRTH preparation classes and her Thrive with Your Newborn online POSTPARTUM preparation course at BirthfulCourses.com.Follow us on Goodpods, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, and anywhere you listen to podcasts.Our Sponsors:* For 20% off your membership, go to www.ixl.com/TODAYSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/birthful/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Show Notes: Today's show is part two of a follow up interview with Dr. Stuart Fischbein.  I brought him back on to talk about vaginal breech birth and how it came to be the normal policy to deliver all breech babies by c-section.  As usual, the conversation with him is full and rich and covers so much more than just breech.  In this second section of our interview you will learn about: Are third trimester ultrasounds needed? What does it mean to err on the side of caution? What is the impact of worry on pregnancy? What is "high risk" and what does it mean? Qui bono - who benefits? Do hospitals have your best interests at heart? Off label medicine use Who is a good candidate for vaginal breech birth? What is an external cephalic version (ECV) and is it a good option? Risk of VBAC vs placenta accreta Find Dr. Stu: Birthing Instincts Podcast link (with link to Dr. Stu's Patreon)- https://www.birthinginstinctspodcast.com/ Dr. Stu's Website - https://www.birthinginstincts.com/ Follow Dr. Stu on IG - @birthinginstincts Fearless Pregnancy by Dr. Stuart Fischbein - https://amzn.to/48qd1uA   Helpful Links:   3 WAYS TO WORK WITH LORI: --> Sign up HERE for the Your Birth, God's Way Online Christian Childbirth Course or go to go.yourbirthgodsway.com/cec! This is a COMPLETE childbirth education course with a God-led foundation taught by a certified nurse-midwife with over 20 years of experience in all sides of the maternity world! Learn more or sign up HERE! —> Having a home birth and need help getting prepared?  Sign up HERE for the Home Birth Prep Course or go to homebirthprep.com --> Sign up for your PERSONALIZED Pregnancy Coaching Midwife & Me Power Hour HERE or go to go.yourbirthgodsway.com/powerhour These consults can include: birth plan consultation, past birth processing, second opinions, breastfeeding consultation, and so much more!  Think of it as a special, one-hour appointment with a midwife to discuss whatever your concerns may be without any bias of practice policy or insurance policy influencing recommendations.   Get Christian pregnancy and birth merch HERE (https://go.yourbirthgodsway.com/store)   Lori's Recommended Resources HERE (go.yourbirthgodsway.com/resources)   Sign up for email updates Here   Be heard! Take My Quick SURVEY to give input on future episodes you want to hear --> https://bit.ly/yourbirthsurvey   Got questions?  Email lori@yourbirthgodsway.com     Socials: Follow Your Birth, God's Way on Instagram!c @yourbirth_godsway Follow the Your Birth, God's Way Facebook Page! fb.com/lorimorriscnm Join Our Exclusive Online Birth Community -- facebook.com/groups/yourbirthgodsway   Learn more about Lori and the podcast at yourbirthgodsway.com!   FREE Bible Study Course - How To Be Sure Of Your Salvation --> https://the-ruffled-mango-school.teachable.com/p/how-to-be-sure-of-your-salvation     DISCLAIMER:  Remember that though I am a midwife, I am not YOUR midwife.  Nothing in this podcast shall; be construed as medical advice.  Listening to this podcast does not mean that we have entered into a patient-care provider relationship. While I strive to provide the most accurate information I can, content is not guaranteed to be 100% accurate.  You must do your research and consult other reputable sources, including your provider, to make the best decision for your own care.  Talk with your own care provider before putting any information here into practice.  Weigh all risks and benefits for yourself knowing that no outcome can be guaranteed.  I do not know the specific details about your situation and thus I am not responsible for the outcomes of your choices.    Some links may be affiliate links which provide me a small commission when you purchase through them.  This does not cost you anything at all and it allows me to continue providing you with the content you love.

This podcast episode is such a potent mix of deep trauma, powerlessness, hope, faith, determination and sisterhood. Chaya carries us through the births of her seven children, starting with the cesarean birth of her twins and ending with the free birth of her newest baby, just a few weeks ago.  Among her sharing are stories of placental abruption and stillbirth, breech presentation, postpartum haemorrhage, unconsented to sedation, threats of labelling Chaya as psychotic as a means of forcing her to go to hospital, which I'll just add at this point, she is not just perfectly sane in an insane world of traumatising birth ‘care' (read control), she herself is a practising psychologist… and it gets worse, at the end of her most recent pregnancy she was forced into hiding from the police since there was a hearing underway where the authorities were attempting to make her give birth via cesarean. Of course there was no legal basis for the court hearing since it is a basic human right to choose what medical interventions we do or don't have in birth, and ultimately Chaya's case was won in the supreme court. Needless to say, it was a remarkable feat for Chaya to welcome her baby gently and peacefully with a couple of women friends at her side and without an ounce of medical interference during the birth process… a free birth, the most liberating of experiences, after four previous cesareans.  Also discussed in this episode: * ECV for breech twin pregnancy * 42 - 43 week long pregnancies * Pregnancy with an IUD in place * Faith as an orthodox Jew * Birthing in the US and Israel * Meconium * PPH at free birth * Dismissed signs of PET by doctors * Blood loss following SROM at home * Loss of sense of safety in the world * Rising maternal mortality rates, particularly for women of colour * Separation from children at end of pregnancy

BE01. This is episode 1 of a 3-party series sharing my story. We are talking about the ECV, when the doctor turned the baby from breech to head down, my expectations of starting labor, my birth plan, ways we tried to turn the baby head down, and how we tried to induce labor. The next episode is the BIRTH STORY, and the last one is postpartum RECOVERY. If this is your first time here, I'm Jamie Massey, 43 and the host of the podcast. It took us 3 years, 5 pregnancies, failed IVF, and a failed embryo transfer to have our first baby using donor eggs. I am so lucky to be sharing my story with my baby sleeping next to me.  If you found this podcast helpful, I would love if you made a donation! I am staying at home with the baby, and I can't keep the podcast going without your help. If I get 100 people to donate by October 1st, 2024, I'll start a private FB group. I don't want to go the ad or sponsorship route, but there are costs to keep the show going. If you receive value from this show, even if it's as small as the price of a coffee, please consider donating through the link below. THANK YOU for making this podcast successful! https://over40fabulousandpregnant.com/donate/Get the full story, resources and more information about this episode: https://over40fabulousandpregnant.com/bonus1/

As a first-time mom, Katie was struggling with potty training and feeling like she didn't know what she was doing. She later became a potty training consultant to help other struggling moms and now hosts the Burnt Pancakes podcast. Katie's first birth was a scheduled breech Cesarean. Her second birth was a spontaneous 36-hour labor at 39 weeks and 1 day with 1.5 hours of pushing and a tough recovery from a 3rd-degree tear and labial adhesions.Katie wanted to go for a VBAC again with her third. Though she thought she would go into labor at 39 weeks spontaneously again, she actually ended up getting induced at 41 weeks. She got an epidural right at the end of her labor, but was able to push her third son out in just two pushes!Meagan and Katie talk about how pelvic floor physical therapy is necessary for both Cesarean and vaginal birth recoveries. No matter how long it's been since you gave birth, it can still be a game-changer!Katie's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, welcome everybody. We have our friend, Katie, with us today sharing her 2VBAC stories and before we got started, we were talking about once you have that C-section and you're contemplating having a VBAC and you talk to people and they're like, “Wait, you can't do that. Doctors won't let you do that.” Right? Katie: Mhmm, yep. Meagan: But what have we learned? What have we learned over all the years? Yes, we can. Yes, you can. Women of Strength, if you are listening and you have had one C-section and you are wanting to know your options, we are going to share two stories today. Okay, so Katie– you guys, she is the host of a podcast. Is it Burnt Pancakes? Katie: Burnt Pancakes, yep. Meagan: Tell us more about that. Katie: Okay. So when I became a mom, my oldest son was potty training and it was an absolute disaster. That's probably the point in motherhood I felt the absolute worst. He had a tendency to poop his pants whenever we were in my friend's backyard running around and playing. One day, he had this awful mess. I was cleaning it up. I was frustrated. I was like, “Oh my gosh. He's never going to get it.” My friend looked at me and was like, “Katie, don't worry about it.” Everyone burns their first pancake. I was like, “That just made me feel so validated as a mom.” Fast forward about 8 years and I decided to start my own motherhood podcast and I named it “Burnt Pancakes” because we are all figuring out this thing as we go. Meagan: I love that so much. It's so true.Katie: So true. I'm still figuring it out. Meagan: I know, every day. As soon as I feel like I've started figuring out motherhood and parenthood and all of that, it starts to change on me. Katie: Right. It throws you for a loop. Meagan: Right. If you can relate here, go listen to her podcast and it's just called “Burnt Pancakes”. And you are everywhere, right? Katie: “Burnt Pancakes”. We have mom-versations each week. I love to chat with moms. One of my favorite things to do was meet a mom at a park and hit it off and start chatting. That's what I wanted my podcast to feel like– real moms chatting about motherhood. Meagan: Real moms chatting about motherhood. Then maybe was the inspiration between that whole experience with your son what led to also potty training consulting? Katie: Correct. At the time, I was teaching. I taught for 17 years. It was potty training my first son which was an absolute disaster. But fast forward, I have two more kids. I potty trained them and things got easier. I started feeling very confident in my skills and people started asking me for tips. I decided to become a full-time potty training consultant so now I actually help moms with the potty training process which blows my mind because if you had asked me 8 years ago, “Would you be doing this?” I would have said, “Heck no. I have no clue what I'm doing.” But what I am doing is trying to help moms who are in the same shoes I was in. You can do this. I can help you get through it. I have the answers for you that I didn't have back then. Meagan: Yep. That's exactly how we are here at The VBAC Link. We were in the thick of it. It was a rocky journey. There were a lot of unknowns and if you asked me 8-9 years ago if I was going to be doing a podcast sharing VBAC stories, I probably wouldn't have said yes. I would have been like, “Probably not,” and here we are inspiring and encouraging. Katie: Heck no. Meagan: I'm so excited for you. So tell us where people can find you for potty training because I'm sure a lot of people listening right now especially being pregnant, you probably have a toddler as you are preparing for your birth. Katie: Yes. You can find me at my website. My website is burntpancakes.com. On social media, you can find my potty training information at @itspottytime. Meagan: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. Katie: Yeah. Meagan: I do have a Review of the Week to share before we get into these stories. Katie: Go for it. Meagan: This is by theblanchardbunch. It says, “Get PUMPED!!!” It says, “Listening to this podcast just gets me pumped. You've had a C-section and you want a VBAC. Absolutely. You've had two C-sections. You go for that VBAC. Oh, you've had three or four? Go get that VBAC, mama, because you are a queen and 100% capable. Seriously, this podcast not only informs you of all the amazing things our bodies can do but also, you are immediately welcomed into a space of understanding and love. Our bodies are powerful but sometimes we just need a little help becoming empowered. This podcast does just that. I'm preparing for my VBAC and I'm currently 36 weeks pregnant. I think that all the time what I'd say or share if I were on the podcast because I am so sure this VBAC is happening. Thank you to all of the mamas who have shared their stories and thank you to Julie and Meagan who have created a space for all of these mamas needing to be uplifted and empowered.” What a fun review. Katie: Aww, that's amazing. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love this. It's in all caps right here. “GO GET THAT VBAC, MAMA, BECAUSE YOU ARE A QUEEN AND 100% CAPABLE.” I couldn't agree more with theblanchardbunch. I hope that you got your VBAC. Congratulations on your birth and as always, if you have a review, I would love for you to share it. I read them every single week and they really do truly bring me all of the joy. Katie: I love that. Meagan: Okay, Ms. Katie. Let's turn the time over to you. Let's share these stories. Katie: Okay. Well, my story starts 10 years ago. It's really hard to believe it's been that long but I was pregnant with my first son and we got the news at 28ish weeks that he was breech which I at the time didn't even know what that meant. It was just a regular appointment and my doctor just nonchalantly was like, “Oh, he's head up. Okay, you'll probably end up having a C-section.” Meagan: Whoa. Katie: I was like, “Come again?” First of all, what's head up? I don't know. Meagan: At 28 weeks? Katie: Yes. Yes. Crazy. She made it seem like no big deal but for me, it was. I'm a taller girl. I'm 5'9”. I've always had bigger hips, a nice pear shape so I always thought, One day, these hips are going to serve a purpose. When I'm giving birth, these things are going to come in handy. My instant thought was, My body is not going to be able to do that. How can you just drop that on me and not feel anything? She basically said, “Most babies won't turn. There's a chance he could turn but you might just end up having a C-section.” I was like, “Well, is there a chance? What's this?” She's like, “You can try something to turn him but that's just the way it was.” Meagan: No offering of an ECV or anything like that in time? Katie: As the weeks went on, she mentioned it, but for her, she was like, “I've been doing this for years. Most of the time, I don't see them turn.” She just made it seem like a C-section was totally cool and totally normal. I was like, “What? How can this be?” I did try almost everything to get him to turn. At the time, I was taking a yoga class. Side note– Drew Barrymore was in my yoga class. Looking at you right now, I'm like, “You look so much like her.”Meagan: I've been told that for so many years– Drew Barrymore and Winona Ryder. Apparently, those two people I look like. Katie: When you hopped on the call, I was like, “Oh my god. You look like Drew.” I tried to play it super cool because at the time, we were living in LA and I was like, “Oh my god, Drew Barrymore is right next to me.” She even said something to me like, “Hey, mama.” I tried to play it so cool.Anyway, in that yoga class, all the moms were like, “You need to go see this chiropractor. You need to try this.” They were super supportive so I did go see a chiropractor. I forget what they called the procedure but it was massaging your hip flexors really, really hard. I don't know why that makes him turn. It was loosening some ligaments to make them turn. Meagan: Like your round ligaments and stuff? Katie: Yes. I believe that's what it was. It was extremely painful and the chiropractor at the time was like, “You're going to do great in birth because you have excellent pain tolerance.” I was like, “Okay, thank you.” He did not turn. At the time, there was a website called Spinning Babies. Meagan: There still is. Katie: Okay. I literally Googled everything to get him to turn. I lay on my couch with my hips up. I had my husband sing to me “Turn Around” over and over. I did everything. He did not turn so in April, they were like, “Okay, here's your scheduled C-section appointment.” I at least had time to prepare for the C-section. It wasn't an emergency. I took all the notes on tips to do to help recover and in that sense, I felt prepared and I got to be at peace with the fact that I wasn't delivering vaginally. But it was still weird when they were like, “April 26th. That's going to be the day when he comes in.” I'm like, “You're picking his birthday. What if he's not ready at 39 weeks to come?” Then two days before, “Oh hey, the doctor has an opening on the 25th so we're going to take you on the 25th.” I called my husband, “They're changing it to Friday.” Meagan: It's a weird feeling for them to be like, “Hey, you are going to have your baby this day around this hour.” Katie: Yeah and it was earlier than the due date so it just felt really weird. Meagan: Was it a week before?Katie: It was a week before, yeah. He was born at 39 weeks and 1 day. I still wonder. His sign– I can't remember which one it is but the sign he was born on was not what he could have been born and it just doesn't match up. He seems more like a Taurus than this and I'm like, “Is it because they chose when you were going to come?” We showed up that Friday for the C-section and of course, I got to do my hair. I got to take a shower so that was nice. You show up at the hospital and they're like, “Okay, your 8:00 appointment.” You're like, “Am I checking into a hotel here or giving birth?” I never once felt a contraction. I mean, it's weird to say I was sad that I didn't feel that because later I learned what that feels like and I'm like, “That was fun.” Meagan: It sounds weird but at the same time, it's this natural feeling that we've been taught and told that our body does so you mourn that. Katie: Yeah. I want to feel it. That was it. I was mourning the fact that my body wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. A weird thing– we did the hospital birthing class. It was 4 hours. They talked about C-section for maybe 5 minutes of the whole class but then they said, “3 out of 4 people will have a C-section.” That was the statistic from the hospital. I was like, “Oh, well that's not going to be me.” This was before I knew he was breech. That's not going to be me. But I'm like, Why would you spend only 5 minutes if 75% of us end up in a C-section? How is that possible? Yeah. It felt weird. But I did go in somewhat prepared. It still felt very sterile and scary but we had him via C-section. He's totally healthy. There were extra doctors in the operating room just because he was breech so there were four pediatricians. My husband was like, “The room was filled. It was pretty crazy.” But he was healthy. He was fine. Everything turned out great. I do feel like with a C-section though, I was completely out of it for 24 hours. I don't remember my parents coming. I vaguely remember but my husband was like, “Your mom and dad were here.” I was like, “Oh gosh, they were.” I vaguely remembered. Meagan: That's how I was too. I was in and I was out. Katie: Yes. I didn't breastfeed him for the first hour until they got me to the other room and they were like, “Oh, were you planning on breastfeeding?” I didn't know that I could breastfeed him in the first few minutes. I wasn't aware. The recovery for that was a lot harder. Just getting out of bed to go to the bathroom the first day was excruciating. But we were fine. I recovered from it and it was all good. Moving 3 years forward, we got pregnant with our second kid. I found out I was having a second boy which for anyone who has experienced gender disappointment, it's a real thing and it's totally okay to mourn the loss of a daughter or just feel unsure about the gender of your baby. I remember crying. I got home from the ultrasound and was just bawling because I was like, This was my girl. Where is she? This is a boy. It did take me a couple of months after he was born before I was feeling pretty good with it and that's a normal feeling. I think no one really talks about that. But it was a totally normal pregnancy. What we did discover from the first one is that I had very low water fluid in my amniotic sac so they said that could have been the reason. My second son, I definitely didn't have that because I put on about 40 pounds and was much bigger. I was able to stay super active during that pregnancy doing boot camp and lifting weights until the last month. We moved from LA to Orange County so I had to get a different doctor for this pregnancy. The doctor I saw from day one was like, “If you want a VBAC, we can absolutely go ahead and try that.” She actually more encouraged it. Everything I had heard when I had the C-section was, “Your son was breech so that doesn't mean you can't deliver naturally in the future,” but a lot of hospitals and doctors were kind of hesitant about it.” This doctor was like, “No. I don't see any reason why you can't try.” You do have to sign your life away pretty much. I had to sign a thing saying these are all of the things that could happen and that is terrifying. Meagan: I'm accepting that. Katie: Yes and it's my liability here. The doctors are off the hook but she was very supportive about it but she never made me feel like I couldn't do it. His pregnancy went just fine. I went into labor naturally right before the 39-week and 1-day mark. I actually had him at 39 weeks and 1 day exactly the same as the C-section so it made me feel a little bit better like I didn't take my older son too early. I was always worried, Did I take him out too early? I did have a lot of baby blue and a little bit of postpartum with my first and sometimes I wondered, Was it because of the C-section? I don't know if there's any science behind that. He wasn't ready to come yet. Meagan: You guys didn't have your bonding. Your body didn't naturally go into labor. There are a lot of things that could come into play. Katie: All that ran through my mind. Yes. Yeah. Meagan: But sometimes those who go into labor still get those postpartum depression and baby blues. Katie: Totally, yeah. Absolutely. I went into labor and this one was about 36 hours. It was very long. I didn't realize that a few hours into getting contractions, my water actually broke. I thought I peed myself. I was sitting at home laboring and laboring. Things were just taking forever. I was having regular contractions. They weren't as close as I thought they were supposed to be. I don't know what it is. I don't know if other moms feel this but when you go into laobr, it's almost like you go into the zone and it's like, I'm just doing this thing. My husband was like, “Should we call the doctor?” I was like, “No, not yet. I don't think we are supposed to.” I was just in the thing. Meagan: You're focused. Your focus shifts. Katie: Looking back, I should have called the doctor the second I went into labor just to get tabs and figure out when I should go in but I was just like, “No. We've got to keep waiting. I don't feel like I'm ready to have him yet.” We finally got to the hospital hours and hours later and they were like, “Oh, your water broke a while ago.” I ended up being in labor with him for a very long time. I ended up pushing for an hour and a half. I do remember at one point they said, “Okay, if we can't get him out, we will have to go and do a C-section.” That was like, no. I really, really wanted this. I didn't do a whole lot of preparing. With the first one, we did the classes. I did research, but this one was kind of like, I'm just going to go in and trust my gut. I'm just going to see what happens. I was totally prepared that if it was going to be a C-section, I knew what to expect but I really wanted to see if my body could do it. I remember the nurse kept saying, “You've got to keep your eyes open when you push.” For me, it just felt so unnatural to keep my eyes open. I just wanted to scrunch up. She was like, “Relax your face and keep your eyes open.” I was like, “That doesn't feel right.” I think my son had a giant head. He still to this day has a larger head than my oldest son. It just was hard to get him out but he finally came out. I gave birth to him. I was able to walk around so much quicker and the recovery was a lot better. I did end up having a third-degree tear so it's not like vaginal birth is less damaging than a C-section. I have scars from both kids. Meagan: Not always. Katie: But it was so nice to know, I know what it feels like to go through it. I had an epidural with him. I think I was maybe 5 or 6 centimeters so it's not like I ever got to crazy intense contractions and I didn't feel anything when I was pushing. Part of it was I didn't feel anything when I was pushing and I think that was kind of hard because I didn't feel anything to get him out. Meagan: Sometimes that can play into tearing actually weirdly enough and then the lack of ability to push in a position if we are in a back crunch position. We are putting more pressure so if we do have a baby with a little bit of a larger head or is having a harder time coming out– which by the way, first-time moms, you guys, 36 hours with an hour and a half of pushing is crazy but it can be very normal. Katie: It's normal. It's so normal. I think what was hard for me was I looked at the clock when I started pushing because I had friends who were like, “Oh, I pushed for this long. I pushed for this long.” With my third, I decided, Don't look at the clock. Don't think about how long it's going to take. It's just going to take as long as it needs to be, because it was an hour of pushing. One thing that was kind of scary is that his heart rate would go down every time I'd push so they were like, “This could be dangerous.” Another thing was that I might have to get him out sooner so they would have me push for a contraction and then wait on a contraction. It was literally 6 minutes in between pushes. It just took a long time. But he was a healthy little boy and all was good. We thought we were going to have two kids. Everything was wonderful and then a year later, my husband was like, “Okay, are we ready to get rid of the baby clothes?” I'm like, “Umm, actually, I don't think we are done yet.” Part of me still wanted a girl but I just did not feel like our family was complete. It was the weirdest feeling because we had always said, “We are going to have two kids.” We've got a three-bedroom house. It just made sense. Then we both decided– we had a little talk. If we were to have another kid and it ends up being a boy, are you okay with that? We were both like, “Yes. I feel like three is what's going to make our family complete.” I was a little bit older. At the time, I was 38 so I'm like, “If we want a third, let's try for it this year and if not, that's a sign.” We did get pregnant with the third. I did not find out what I was having on this one because I was like, I have a feeling it's going to be a boy and I don't want to feel that disappointment again while I'm pregnant, and if it's a girl, what a fun surprise to wait and find out. We didn't find out. I don't know if anybody else feels this way, but I had dreams about having a boy. My mom gut was like, You're going to be okay with another little boy.  I kind of knew, but I still wanted to wait. This pregnancy went fine. With my middle, I was all for working out and going to boot camp, and felt really great. With this one, I was like, I've got two kids and I am exhausted. I put on more weight than I ever had. I could not move around. I hurt the most. I had the worst pelvic bone pain. Meagan: SPD?Katie: Probably. Probably, but I did not really speak up. I told my doctor, “Oh, I'm feeling some pain.” She was like, “That's normal during pregnancy.” Now, looking back, I know people who saw a chiropractor during pregnancy and I'm like, “That's what I needed.” Meagan: Or even pelvic floor. Katie: Yep. That's what I needed because for a year after having him, I would get pain when I would walk and I'm like, I wish I had known that there was something I could do about that. So if you are feeling pain, speak up because I could have done something about it. With this one, I was very large. I was ready to have him. I got to that 39-week mark and was like, He or she is coming. I know it's any day now. Then my due date hit and he was not there yet. The doctor was like, “Oh, you're already dilated. It's coming soon.” She stripped my membrane and was like, “Oh, in a day or two you're going to have him but let's just schedule an induction in case.” We get to 41 weeks and still was not having a baby. Having two at 39 weeks and then having to wait until 41 was an eternity. It felt like the longest wait ever. I think this was God's way of saying, “You're done now. You're good,” because I remember feeling like I never wanted to be pregnant again. I am never giving birth again. This is the last time and I felt very complete with that whereas with the second one, it was like, Is this really the last time I'm going to carry a baby? Is this the last time I'm going to give birth? It felt really nice. I was still seeing the same doctor I was seeing with my middle son. She was on board. She was actually telling me that if you've done a VBAC and then you have another one, it's not considered a VBAC. Is that what you've heard?Meagan: No, it's still considered a VBAC but your risks go up. Your risks go up for vaginal birth and down for things like uterine rupture. Unfortunately, you're always going to be a VBAC. Katie: Yeah. Okay, so risk went down. Okay. But she was totally on board with it. I had to be induced with this one. I literally have tried everything. I've had a C-section. I've had an epidural birth and I've had an induction. I can't say that one is better. I feel like they are all part of my birth stories. Each one is special but I had to do the Foley bulb. I had to almost not get the epidural. My water broke a couple of hours into the hospital and then a contraction started very fast. I remember waiting for the anesthesiologist and going, “If he doesn't get here, I'm having this baby.” As he was giving it to me, I felt like I needed to push. I didn't say anything because I was like, I really want the epidural, but I was literally like, Oh my god. I have to push. I have to push. This is so hard. I actually did feel the worst contractions with that because I was literally at the end. After he was done, the nurse came in and I was like, “Hey, can you check me because I think I feel like I need to push?” She checked and she was like, “Let's get the doctor. You're ready.” It was like, epidural and now it's time to push. My husband was actually getting food because they didn't allow him in the room when I got the epidural so he was like, “I'm going to go get breakfast.” I'm like, “Cool, cool.” Then I'm sitting there like, “Umm, is he going to get back in time?” They were like, “Let's do a practice push,” and I'm like, “He's not here yet!”I got him out in one and a half pushes and there was my third boy. It was just such a different experience going from, I'm going to have to push for 3 hours. With this one, I remember thinking, I'm just going to let my body do what feels right. I'm not going to have the nurses tell me to push this way and do that. I'm just going to close my eyes and scrunch my face like they tell me not to do, but it felt so much easier. I remember asking her, “I did my practice push. Did that do anything?” She was like, “Yes. Please stop. I need to get my gloves and I need to get this.” So he was out and I had my third boy. I would say with the two vaginal births, my recovery was so much easier. Just hospital-wise, I was able to move around a lot faster. With my middle son, I was able to go to the park with my boys a week later whereas with the C-section, I don't think I left my house for the first 6 weeks because I was so uncomfortable and it didn't feel right. All three births gave me scars but in a different way. Meagan: Yeah. I actually really love that you pointed out that even with vaginal birth, there can be an extra recovery or extra things because I think sometimes in this world, it's like, C-section is bad. C-section is bad. C-section is bad. VBAC is amazing. VBAC is wonderful. Okay. Absolutely. I believe that VBAC is amazing and wonderful. I do not believe that C-section is bad. I do believe that we have way too many unnecessary C-sections and that is bad. Katie: Right. Meagan: We know though that vaginal birth sometimes isn't all sunshine and butterflies. We have tearing. We have prolapse. We have pelvic floor dysfunction for the next however long because we pushed for 2.5-3 hours or even an hour and a half or we labored for a really long time and we are sore or whatever. Sometimes C-sections can be just the most healing and beautiful experiences for someone. I love that you pointed that out. It's just important to remind everybody listening to go with what you feel is best. No, you don't have to schedule a C-section just in case. No, you don't have to do these things but if you want to and that's what feels right, do it. We encourage you. Katie: I absolutely did not have any incontinence problems after the C-section but after the vaginal birth now, doing jumping jacks and running is a different story. Yeah. It's different. Meagan: I want to talk about that because I also didn't have a lot of incontinence. It's not like I have incontinence now but I have pressure and things like that. I just went to a pelvic floor specialist and she said– oh crap. What did she call them? My bones, the birthing bones, they are my pelvis, but my pelvis was stuck in a flared state from birth. Katie: Oh whoa. Meagan: She manually closed my bones. It was insane. I could feel it. She was like, “Oh, there's no give. Can you feel it?” I was like, “Oh my gosh, yeah.” She worked it, did her PT thing and closed these bones. She said, “Sometimes people have these bones get stuck open after birth and it puts a lot of trauma on their pelvic floor and they have incontinence and all of these things.” Katie: Whoa. Meagan: She did two other things which blew my mind. I've never had that happen with a pelvic floor specialist before but my uterus was really, really hard and she was like, “It should move and float within.” She massaged my uterus and then she went internal and my bladder was adhered from the inside. Even though we have C-sections, Women of Strength, and you have had vaginal births and everything, if you've had that C-section, there is a likelihood of you having adhesions or scar tissue in there that may cause pelvic floor issues and incontinence. So anyway, my bladder was adhered and then there was a part of my cervix that needed to be released. She was like, “I wonder if that's why you had such a long end.” My cervix would stretch but it wouldn't stay. Or she said, “I see this a lot with failure to progress or cervical lips where there is this thing that needs to be released.” As soon as it was, I can't even tell you the difference in how I feel. Katie: Wow. Meagan: The pressure is really pretty much gone. I would say there is maybe a little. She even said, “The next visit might need a little bit more tweaking.” I just ran the other day, 3 miles for the first time in forever. Usually after 1 mile, my pelvic floor would just give out. I did fine. Katie: Don't you wish that was something every OB/GYN was like, “Okay, you're going to see me and you're going to go here”? Or you give birth and it's not like, “6 weeks, you're good.” It's like, “Oh, now you need to go see this.” Meagan: Yes and it's not talked about with C-sections either. A lot of time those C-section scars can cause back pain and pelvic floor things, urine incontinence, pain during sex, and things like that. We don't even know that it's related to our C-section because we've never pushed a baby out of our vaginas. Right? It's so crazy. Katie: My youngest is 4 and I'm like, I should finally book that PT consultation and just find out what's all going on down there. Meagan: Yes! My VBAC baby is going to be 8. At this point of this recording, he is 8 and here I am this year just going. I have done physical therapy before and pelvic work but I've never done it to this extent where I was like, Okay, I'm going to get down to the bottom of this and had results like this this fast. Katie: Whoa. Okay, let me ask you a question. Did you go through your doctor or did you just search and find one yourself? Meagan: I did search and find one myself. The craziest thing is I did call to see if insurance would cover it. They do not. It's all out of pocket. So like you said, I feel like this should be a standard thing regardless of C-section or vaginal birth. It should just be part of our postpartum care. I actually think it should be part of our prenatal care. Katie: Totally. Oh my gosh. I know. Someone I know was getting really bad pains so she went while she was pregnant to PT and I was like, That's exactly how I felt a year ago, because she was having it after me. I was like, I wish I would have known about that, because that would have really, really helped. Meagan: Yeah. Chiropractic care for sure. Pelvic PT. Know that not every birth is going to be amazing and beautiful but all we can do is prepare and understand. Katie: Right. Right. And be at peace with whatever is meant to be. I look back at my C-section. I tell my husband this all the time. If we would have lived on the prairie, I would have died during that breech birth. It would have been almost impossible to deliver him. I did seek out, are there any doctors who deliver breech babies? In LA there was one, but to me, it just felt a little too risky to even go down that route. 100 years ago, I might not have survived childbirth so the C-section for me was a lifesaver. It was so comforting to know that. My first vaginal birth though, I did have some complications after so just because you deliver vaginally doesn't mean it's a piece of cake and it's over. At  my 6-week appointment, I remember telling my doctor, “Something doesn't feel right down there.” She was like, “I'll check it out. Let me see.” I was like, “No, really. Something feels wrong.” My labia actually, part of it fused together. She said there were probably mini tears and it literally was. I was like, “I just don't think the hole is big right now.” She was like, “Oh, yes. I see what you're talking about.” It literally fused together. She was a teaching doctor. She worked for a hospital so she was like, “We never see this. Do you mind if I take a picture for my students?” I was sitting there with stirrups. She was like, “I won't get your face or say your name.” I was like, “Yes. For science, yes. Please take a picture of this.” I ended up in just the hospital visit where she had to cut it and then sauter it back together. I was able to do it in the doctor's office. It was a super easy procedure, but I was numb during that and the recovery from having an open wound in that area when you're peeing is not comfortable. So being 6 weeks postpartum feeling like, I should be getting back to normal, then oh God, this. Meagan: There are always hurdles. Katie: It's not all roses when you deliver naturally either. But I was happy that maybe some other mom– because it was extremely embarrassing. I didn't even want to have my husband look or tell my husband what this was but being able to share it with other moms, they were like, “Why doesn't anyone tell you that stuff like this happens?” And thank God for modern medicine because again, had this been the prairie, I would have never had another child after that. Meagan: Might have been too traumatizing. Yeah. It's just so hard to know. Everybody internalizes and processes differently their births and their experiences. Do the research. Get in your head in a good space. Find your provider and do the things and choose the birth that is right for you. Katie: Absolutely. Absolutely. Meagan: Thank you again for sharing your stories. Congrats. Katie: Oh thank you. Meagan: Definitely go see a pelvic PT. Katie: I'm booking one today. It's time. It's time. Meagan: It's time. Women of Strength, I think it's really important that sometimes we forget this. We deserve to give back to ourselves. After having a baby, it's a really big deal. It's a really big deal no matter how you have this baby. And then on top of it, the lack of sleep and feeding a baby, all of the things. Remember to give back to yourself. Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I learned after my third. It took me three kids that asking for help is okay. I remember with my first I felt like, I don't want to ask for help because they're going to think I don't know what I'm doing. I didn't know what I was doing. By the third, someone was like, “Can we start a meal train for you?” I'm like, “Yes. Please do. Yes. I would like everything.” “Can we take your kids to the park so you can have some time?” “Yes please. Let me know what time you're picking them up.” Meagan: Yes. It's okay to say yes. It's okay to take breaks. Well, thank you again so much. Katie: Thank you so much for having me on. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Women of Strength, so many things are important to know during your VBAC. Meagan Heaton is flying solo today telling you how to get the most out of what The VBAC Link offers. She goes through all of the resources from the Parents' Course to the Doula Training to The VBAC Link Community and CBAC Community Facebook groups to blogs, newsletter emails, Instagram Q&As, and more. What do you need to know to have a better birth after an unexpected or difficult Cesarean? What is included in The VBAC Link Parents' Course?While all of the information can be compiled and found through our hundreds of podcast episodes, blogs, and social media posts, the course is concise and comprehensive to have quick access to it all including: The history of Cesarean and VBACPreparing your mind and body for VBACEvidence-based stats on uterine rupture and moreHow to find a supportive provider How to choose between a repeat Cesarean and a VBACVBAC after multiple CesareansCoping tools during labor Family-centered CesareansRisks, benefits, and alternatives of interventionsHow to avoid an unnecessary CesareanWhen a Cesarean is necessaryThe VBAC Link Doula DirectoryThe VBAC Link Community Facebook GroupCBAC Support Facebook GroupHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Doula TrainingFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey guys, this is Meagan today and I am solo. I don't have a VBAC story coming your way today but I wanted to talk a little bit more about VBAC and what we need to know and what we need to do to prepare. If you've heard my own personal stories on the episodes a while ago, I think they are number two, go check it out. If you haven't heard my VBA2C story, go check it out but during my journey, I've talked about how I felt alone in my journey. I had a couple of people within my space who were definitely cheering me on and my rocks, but the majority of the people in my life were very, very skeptical or judgmental or honestly just ignored me. That's what would happen. I could tell people didn't support or like the idea of me having a vaginal birth so they would just ignore me. Today, I wanted to talk a little bit more about the things that I did and then the things that Julie and I as we were writing our VBAC Prep Course were really truly the most important things that you should know. I want to talk a little bit more about what's in our course and how you can prepare. I'm going to do that but I am going to share a Review of the Week. It feels weird to not be having somebody come on after but I'm going to share a Review of the Week and then I'm going to go into it a little bit more about what I did to prepare. This review is actually on our ultimate prep course. It says, “This course gave me the knowledge and confidence I needed to move forward with my plan to have an HBAC. When you realize VBAC is just birth and you hear the studies and the insights, they eliminate the myths that invoke a lot of the fear in C-section mamas, you realize you've totally got this. I was empowered to find a provider who truly supported me and realized how much my gut was telling me my previous provider was not the way to go. I can't wait to share my HBAC story when the time comes. Thank you so much for all you do.” Okay, so going right into that, you guys. Like I said, when I was preparing, I did feel really alone. Number one, I think in preparing is finding that provider. Really truly, find that solid provider as soon as you can. We've talked about it here on the podcast that I suggest even finding a provider before you become pregnant because there is just this different thing about it where you're not as vulnerable. You don't feel as rushed. You feel more confident in your decision earlier on because you're not feeling that rushed feeling. So sometimes I think we can choose a provider who seems kind of VBAC supportive but maybe isn't as VBAC supportive as we would like, but we just choose them because we are pregnant and we need to start care. Find a provider for sure but something that we haven't really talked about is finding your support system within your own circle. If that means that people in your family aren't supportive, it's such a hard line because you don't want to just put your family aside, but at the same time, it's really not going to benefit you if you have people within your circle bringing negative comments and opinions. I wanted to share one of the experience where I finally felt like I could share my desire. We were at a luncheon with my family members and someone asked me, “Where are you birthing or when are you having your baby?” I just said, “I am looking at possibly birthing out of a hospital.” Someone in my family turned to me and said, “No. You can't do that.” I immediately felt defensive and adrenaline running through my body. I just wanted to say, “Whoa, whoa. Who are you to tell me I can't do that?” Because at that point, I had really done so much research and decided that I was pretty comfortable with any risk of giving birth out of the hospital. I also had come up with a plan for if anything were to change to have a hospital plan as well. I felt very confident. I just looked at her and said, “Okay.” I just ignored it. But I quickly realized that that was not the space that I was going to be able to freely talk about my feelings and my desires because people just didn't support it. Looking back, it really was that they just didn't know. There are so many people out there even to this day in 2024 when I'm talking to people about birth stories and what I do, they say, “Wait. That's a thing?” Still, in 2024, people do not know that vaginal birth after Cesarean is an option. That's where it's concerning. It's just that so many people do not know. It is up to us to find that education but I felt like at that moment, I wasn't in a place that I wanted to try and educate them because they were already coming at me so strongly and they already had their opinion formed. I also had some friends who I think were falling in line of a VBAC-supportive versus VBAC-tolerant or friendly provider where they were like, “Okay, yeah. You go do that Meagan,” but in their minds, they probably thought, “She's crazy and I don't think this is going to happen for her.” That was hard because I definitely felt that. I felt that feeling of, “You're definitely not in my circle either.” Quickly, I really found that I needed to find that support. I encourage you to find that support within your own circle that is filled with people who are going to lift you up, build you up, and really truly support you along your journey. All right. We find the provider. We find our support system. Now we have to educate. What is really, really important or what was really important and is important for us as parents to get the education? We wrote this whole course. It's over 100 pages in the manual and so amazing. Obviously, I love it to pieces but I wanted to go over a little bit more of what is included because we often do get questions about one, what's included in your course and two, what do I really need to know? So let's talk about it. In our parents' course, the very first section is preparing your mind and body. You guys, we have to prepare our mind and body. I think this really does go into finding that support because as we are preparing, we have to have that support surrounding us and building us up because as we are mentally going through this, there are a lot of back and forth, Should I? Should I not? Should I? Should I not? Is it worth it? Is it not worth it? Mental preparation– we need to mentally prepare ourselves for birth whether you are going medicated, unmedicated, or whatever. Maybe you don't even know what you want yet. Mentally preparing ourselves is so important. That really starts with honestly processing the past. Let's process those past births. Even if you don't think you processed that as a traumatic experience, you never know what may come up that may not be described as traumatic, but less ideal and something that offers tension. We also want to do physical preparation. Physical preparation is something that I am very, very passionate about because with my second baby– so with my first baby that I wanted to have a VBAC with– I really dove headfirst into physical prep. I believe that changed so much for me within my recovery, my pregnancy, and really just everything. Even though I had a C-section, I feel like I was able to “bounce back” both mentally and physically faster. Hydration was huge. I did not hydrate enough with my first. I was borderline preeclamptic. I never tested positive for it but I was swollen beyond swollen and I gained so much weight. I just really wasn't as healthy. Hydration. Make sure you are hydrating. Watch what you are eating. Be mindful of what you are eating. Really get your protein in and your vegetables. Eat colorful foods and really take those good supplements. I know that there are so many, so many supplements out there and we really truly believe in Needed and their supplements so much. Get on a good prenatal. Make sure you are getting that protein in and if you need extra protein because it is hard to get protein in, get some collagen protein. That will help so much. Try to focus on exercise. If you didn't exercise before, it doesn't mean you have to just go an run a marathon. We've talked about this with MamasteFit. Just staying active, moving your body, walking, and if you can incorporate lifting weights, that's great too but really being mindful in our physical and mental prep is so important. And then along the rest of the course, we are going to be going over things like the VBAC and Cesarean history. You guys, that is such a fascinating thing if you haven't dove into that. It is kind of complex. There's a lot to it and we really wanted to make sure that we brought it into an easier way to digest but really understanding the history of VBAC and the history of Cesarean and where we are today. We talk about women of color and the reasons for Cesarean and uterine rupture. Repeat Cesareans versus VBAC and what are the pros and cons? Because there are pros and cons to both. We are going to talk about the annoying calculator. Have you ever had a provider come to your visit in your prenatal room and say, “Okay, let's talk about your previous Cesarean,” then typing things into their computer and tell you, “Oh, you have x% change of having a VBAC?” That's the VBAC calculator and if you have been with us for a while, you know that we can't stand it but it's there and it happens and so we really want to educate you on that calculator because when we are given a percentage, it can impact. Women are told anything just like I was told in my second C-section that he was so glad I didn't have a VBAC because I for sure would have ruptured. You guys, those things stick with us so when we get these weird numbers, they stick with us and they place doubt and fear. We're going to talk about special circumstances. We're going to talk about what ACOG says. That is a U.S.-based recommendation, but we are going to go over it because we really do look at the evidence that ACOG does provide. We're going to talk about the contraindications of VBAC– when VBAC is safe and when it is not. We're going to talk about providers and locations and hiring a doula. P.S., if you are looking for a doula, you guys, we have so many incredible doulas. You can go to the www.thevbaclink/findadoula and type in your state and area and it will pull up all of the VBAC doulas near you. We highly suggest a doula and if you can't hire a doula, that's okay too but we're also going to talk about how to essentially get through birth without one as well. We're going to talk about all of the benefits and risks and alternatives and assessing interventions. We know that there are lots of them.Sometimes there are interventions like stripping our membranes, or the stretch and sweep or scraping our membranes. Everybody calls it something different but even that, sometimes it's not viewed as an intervention because we're not putting something in an IV or something like that, but even those are interventions. We're going to talk about the pros and the cons. We're going to talk about when you are due. What does that mean? What does that 40-week mark mean? Does it mean you have to have a baby right now? First of all, no. It doesn't. But we're going to talk about what that means and what the evidence shows about going over your due date and the chances of even going into labor before your due date or on your due date. We're going to be talking all about that. We're also going to be talking about VBAC epidurals. A lot of people contact us saying, “Oh my gosh. I want to have a VBAC. My provider says I have to have an epidural and I don't really want to because I'm worried about what it's going to do or if it's going to impact my labor.” Or we have the opposite where they are like, “I actually want an epidural. I don't really want to go unmedicated but my provider is saying I can't have one.” So we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about laboring and positions and coping and tools to have a really amazing, positive experience. We're going to talk about fetal positioning and how that can impact it. We know that that is one of the biggest reasons why Cesareans happen. Fetal positioning, failure to progress, failure to descend— those all three kind of go hand-in-hand. We want to talk about that more. We want to talk about uterine rupture and the signs of uterine rupture. We're going to talk about C-sections and how to create a family-centered Cesarean. There are so many people in our community who after learning about VBAC and the risks of both, the VBAC risk is still not acceptable to them and that is okay. Or we know that a lot of people go in and they have a TOLAC or they are going to VBAC and then end in a repeat Cesarean so let's talk about how to help these Cesareans be better experiences. You guys, and recovery. There are so many things that are so important to know during your VBAC. Then I want to just drop this little note right now that although we are doing all of these amazing things to prepare and understand and to get tools to navigate through our VBAC journey, we have to remember to not forget the postpartum experience. Women of Strength, it's so important to make sure that we are cared for during postpartum. The way the world works today, it's just not happening enough. We are getting right back into the busy hustle and bustle. We've got multiple kids. Work is not supporting paid time off so we are just getting right back into life, just life, and it is so important to take care of ourselves postpartum.If you haven't been to thevbaclink.com, if you've only been here with us on the podcast, one, I'm so glad that you are here, but two, I highly suggest checking out thevbaclink.com. We have blogs that are amazing. We have so many blogs on so many topics– on ECV, on breech, on VBAC after multiple Cesareans. We have VBAC doulas, stats on VBAC doulas or just doulas in general. We obviously have our Find a VBAC Doula Directory. We have a VBAC Resource page filled with so many things and so much more. I highly, highly suggest checking out thevbaclink.com. Another place where you can find love and support is through our Facebook community at The VBAC Link Community. Answer all of our questions and we'll get you in there so you can be surrounded by so many like-minded people that are really just wanted to know similar information to you and wanting to feel supported just like you are. We know that our family and our friends sometimes really aren't those people and that's okay. We love them, but this group is so solid. It's so amazing. I can just feel the love every time I'm in it. I'm just blown away. I'm so stinking in love with this group. Check it out at The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. You can also follow us on Instagram. We are constantly giving out tips and suggestions and referrals. We have our Q and A's every single week so you can check that out. You can go into our highlights and check out the past Q and A's. We try to make sure to get all of them in there so you can go look at frequently asked questions and the answers as well as all of the sites and recommendations. Women of Strength, I hope that through this podcast, even though it is short and sweet and you just have me today, that you feel like you know more of what The VBAC Link offers and what you can get from us. We love you so much, so, so, so much and we want the best for you. We love to support and love and educate. With all that being said, I'm going to let you go and wish you the best of luck. I will be hoping to see you guys in the community. If you ever have any questions and you'd like to write us personally, you can reach out to us at info@thevbaclink.com. Again, that is info@thevbaclink.com and we will make sure to get back to you. Love you all and we'll see you later. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode of “The VBAC Link Podcast,” Meagan is joined by Lauren from Alabama. Lauren's first birth was a Cesarean due to breech presentation where she really wasn't given any alternative options. Her second was a VBAC with a head-down baby, and her third was a breech VBAC with a provider who was not only supportive but advocated on her behalf!Though each of her births had twists and turns including PROM, the urge to push before complete, frequent contractions early on, and NICU time, Lauren is a great example of the power that comes from being an active decision maker in birth. She evaluated pros and cons and assumed the risks she was comfortable with. Thank you, Lauren, for your courage and vulnerability in sharing not only your birth stories with us but also your incredible birth video!Lauren's YouTube ChannelCleveland Clinic Breech ArticleThe VBAC Link Blog: ECV ExplainedNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. If you have ever wondered if a breech vaginal birth or a breech VBAC is possible, let me just tell you right now, the answer is yes and our friend Lauren today is going to share her story to confirm that it is 100% possible. Obviously, we do have some breech VBAC stories on the podcast but they are few and far between. I mean, Lauren, when you were going through it, did you hear a lot of breech births in general let alone VBAC? Did you hear a lot of people having those? Lauren: No. I had heard a few on The VBAC Link but that was really it. I did a lot of research. Meagan: Yes and it's so unfortunate. This story is a double VBAC story but also a breech VBAC which we know a lot of people seek the stories for this because as she just said, there is not a lot of support out there when it comes to breech birth in general. We have a client right now who was just told that her baby was breech and they've already said, “We're going to try to flip this baby but if not, it's a C-section.” They didn't even talk about breech vaginal birth being an option and it makes me so sad. I'm really, really excited to get into your episode. You are in Alabama. Is that correct? Lauren: I am. Meagan: Awesome. So any Alabama mamas, listen up especially if you have a breech VBAC but VBAC in general. If someone is willing to support a breech VBAC, I'm going to guess that they are pretty supportive of VBAC in general. We do have a Review of the Week so we will get into that. This is by sarahinalaska. It says, “HBA2C attempt”. It says, “Thank you, thank you. Your podcast came to me at such an amazing time. You ladies are doing something amazing here. I'm planning on (I'm going to) have an HBAC after two C-sections in February. I look forward to listening to your podcast on repeat to fuel my confidence, ability, and knowledge.” Sarahinalaska, this has been just a minute so if you had your VBAC or just in general, if you are still listening, let us know how things went and congratulations. Late congratulations because this was a couple of years ago. Meagan: Okay, everybody. Lauren, thank you again for being here. Lauren: Thank you for having me. Meagan: Yes, so okay. Obviously, every VBAC journey starts with a C-section so if you want to start right there. Lauren: Yeah. So my first son was about 7 years ago. He was born by C-section. He was also breech. Meagan: Oh, interesting. Okay. Lauren: He was breech through the entire pregnancy. We had talked to my doctor about doing the version but at 36 weeks, my water broke. Meagan: Okay. Lauren: So once your water breaks, you can't attempt a version. I went to the hospital and they said that it would have to be a C-section at that point. I really didn't have the knowledge that I do now and basically, it was worded as “I don't have an option” and that's just it. So that's what we did. Meagan: Yeah. It's so common. Even with non-breech, there are so many times when we come into our birth experience and we are left feeling like we don't have an option. Lauren: Yeah. Meagan: It's just so hard to know. Obviously, that's why we created this podcast so you know all of your options. And then talking about flipping a baby and doing an ECV after your water broke, that is something I've only seen one time in 10 years of practicing so most providers will be like, “Nope. I won't even attempt it.” I was actually floored when my client was actually offered that. Obviously, it's a more difficult experience and it can be stressful on the baby as well so there's that to consider. She ended up trying it. He tried it twice and it didn't happen and then they ended up going into the OR. So okay. Baby was breech. Do you know why baby was breech? Did they say anything about your uterus or any abnormalities there? Lauren: No. They said sometimes it just happens. They knew how badly I wanted to have a vaginal birth and they said, “You are an excellent candidate for a VBAC.” So I was like, “Okay, great.” Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: That's when I really took a deep dive into birth in general because the stuff that they were saying just didn't sound right to me. Meagan: They said you were a candidate. So where did your VBAC journey start as you were diving in? How did that begin? Did you do that before pregnancy or after you fell pregnant? Lauren: Before pregnancy. Probably before the time I came home from the hospital with my son, I was already researching. Meagan: Baby was a couple of days old and you're like, “And let's figure this out.” Listen, I get that. That's exactly how I was too with becoming a doula. It was literally two days after I had my C-section. I signed up to become a doula. Okay. You started diving in and what did you find? Lauren: It was very shocking to me how most providers don't practice evidence-based. I found out the difference between evidence-based versus the standard of care. I was shocked about that too. I was just like, How can you do that as a doctor when you've got all this evidence here? But another doctor is practicing this way so it's okay for you to do that. Meagan: Right. It becomes the norm or it has become the norm. Yeah. Okay. So you get pregnant and you know VBAC is possible. Tell us that VBAC story. Lauren: So that was just a wonderful experience but part of my research, I joined ICAN and I wanted the most VBAC-supportive provider out there. I did switch providers and I switched even before I was pregnant. Right when we were trying, I was like, I need to get in with a provider who is supportive. I found a wonderful provider. The pregnancy was great. I did all the things. I sat on the birth ball instead of on the couches. I made sure to take walks every day. I kept up with my chiropractic care. All of that were just tips that I had seen so I did that. She was head down by 20 weeks so I was super excited about that and she waited until 40+3 which was also a big thing for me because with my first son, they took him to the NICU so I did not want the NICU. The NICU was a horrible experience. I was like, Please, please, please hold on until 37 weeks. 40 would be great.She did. She held on until 40. It was funny too. It was like a switch flipped at that point and I was like, okay. Now I want to get her out. I was eating the spicy food and everything to try to get labor started. But 40+3, my water broke with her as well before labor started. I panicked a little bit because I didn't want to be on a clock. Although I felt that I was with a good provider, I still hadn't birthed with her yet and I've heard stories about people having this doctor who tells them everything they want to hear and then they get in the birth room and it's completely different. Meagan: The bait-and-switch, yeah. It's so hard because they talk about how we have to have this proven pelvis to be considered the best candidate or to have full faith in our ability, but at the same time, I feel like sometimes from us at a patient's standpoint, they need to prove to us. They need to prove to us that they are supportive throughout. Lauren: Yes. For sure. So pretty quickly after my water broke, I started pumping and while I was pumping, the contractions started so I felt so much better. I was like, Okay, good. Now we've got contractions going. I had a doula at that point as well because I felt like having a doula was going to be extremely important for a VBAC. I called her and let her know. She came over and she just hung out a little bit. We did a henna on my belly and we just talked and talked through some fears and excitement and stuff like that. Then she said, “Well, I'm going to go get my stuff. Why don't you lay down and take a nap and see if once things pick up, we can go to the hospital?” I said, “That sounds great.” This was my first time experiencing labor because with my son, even though my water broke, I never had contractions. They just went straight to the C-section. I went upstairs and I laid down on my left side. Within a minute, I was just like, Whoa, these feel totally different. This is crazy. Probably within 30 minutes or so, I was having contractions every 2-3 minutes. Meagan: Whoa!Lauren: Yeah. I was just like, This just picked up really fast. I think I was supposed to already go in by now. Meagan: Were they intense as well on top of being close or were they not as intense but just close? Lauren: In hindsight, they were not intense but it was my first time having labor and they were more intense than the beginning contractions. “Okay, they are more intense. They are close together. I've got to go now.” I was panicking. We made it to the hospital. They checked me and I was 2 centimeters. Meagan: Okay. Lauren: I was like, “You've got to be kidding me.” Meagan: Yes. That's the hardest thing because we are so focused on the time. We are told if they are this close together, it's time to come in but we sometimes forget about the other factors of intensity and length and what's the word I'm looking for? I was going to say continuous but they are that pattern always. They are sticking to that pattern. They are consistent. They are consistent, yeah. Okay, so you're 2 centimeters which is great by the way. It's still great. Lauren: Yes. Oh, and I forgot to mention too that another that was like, Okay, I probably am with a good provider, I did call her after my water broke and she said, “What are your plans?” I just said, “I'd like to stay home as long as possible and contractions haven't started yet but I'm going to try to start pumping and get them started.” I said, “I'd like to wait until tomorrow morning to come in if nothing has started.” She was like, “Okay. Sounds like a good plan. Just let me know what you need.” I was like, Wow. She let me go past 24 hours. Meagan: Yeah. I just love that she started out, “What's your plan?” Lauren: Yes. Meagan: Versus, “This is what you have to do now.” Lauren: Yes. Exactly. She is wonderful and you'll see through the story how amazing she is too. But anyway, we get to the hospital and I actually started out with a wonderful nurse. The hospital policy is continuous monitoring. Meagan: Yeah, very common. Lauren: But I did not want that. I was so lucky because the nurse who started, she was about to leave. Her shift was about to end but she let me start on intermittent monitoring so I was able to get up, walk around, get on the birth ball just to help things moving. Shortly after that, she left and the next nurse was not so nice about it. She told me, “It's our policy. Yada yada.” I said, “Look. I've been doing the intermittent. I'm fine with the intermittent. That's what I'm going to stick with.” She said, “You're going to have to sign a form.” I said, “Bring it on.” Meagan: Yeah. Lauren: I signed the form and I was just like, “That's fine. I have no problem signing a form to say this is my choice.” Then we labored in the hospital room for several hours and my doula suggested I got in the shower at one point and that was amazing. It was euphoric. It felt so good to get in the hot shower and I was progressing slightly more than a centimeter an hour which I know is what they look for so things just progressed pretty slowly and then that night at around– oh, well actually once I hit 6 centimeters, my body started pushing. Meagan: Oh, yes. That can happen. Lauren: I was terrified when I found out I was only 6 centimeters because they kept saying, “You need to stop pushing or you're going to the OR.” I was like, “You don't understand. I'm not pushing. My body is doing it.” It was several hours of working with my doula to try to stop my body from pushing. Every time I had a contraction, and they were still going every 2 minutes–Meagan: Did they give you any tips on how to cope with that or how to avoid pushing like horse lips or things like that?Lauren: The thing that worked best for me was opening my mouth and saying, “Ahhhh.” So that helped a lot but I would still say that 50% of the time I could not stop the pushes. I still remember that nurse saying which was not helpful at all, “Are you pushing? That's the quickest way to the OR.” Meagan: Ugh. Not very kind. You're like, “I'm trying not to. Can you see what I'm doing here?”Lauren: Yes. Then my doctor came in around 11:00 that night to check me and she said, “Oh, you're complete.” I just remember being like, “Thank God.” I said, “Does that mean I can push now?” They're like, “Yes.” That was the best thing I had heard because that was all I wanted to do was push. I was already in the bed because they had me on the monitor at that point. I was on my back so they just leaned the bed back. I didn't really want to push on my back but at that point, I was like, “I'm not moving. I'm just going to push how I am.” I pushed. It took about 20 minutes and she just slowly came out. It was– oh, I'm going to get emotional. It was wonderful. My doula was also my birth photographer and she got some pictures. She got a picture of my husband. It's really sweet. I hope he's okay with me telling this but she got a picture of him crying. It was when she was almost out. I asked him about it and he said, “I just knew at that point you were going to do it. I knew how important it was to you.” Sorry. Meagan: I'm sure he had that overwhelming flood of emotions like, “I know this is important and I can see it. She's there. She's going to do this.” Lauren: Yes. It was wonderful too and then I got to hold her on my chest for a while but they weren't too thrilled with her breathing so they never took her out of the room but they did take her over to the table and they were suctioning her and stuff like that. I started feeling a little panicky because with my son, what happened was after my C-section, they showed him to me. I got to kiss him and touch him and all that but then they started leaving the room with him. I was like, “Whoa, where are you going?” They were like, “Oh, we've got to take him to the NICU because he's having trouble breathing,” but nobody told me anything. They just started leaving with him. I was panicking thinking that was going to happen with my daughter. I was like, “Please, please, please just give her to me. All she needs is me. She's going to be fine. Just give her to me.” The nurse was like, “No. She needs suction. We need to do our job,” but my doctor was so wonderful. She came over and said, “What they're doing right now is suctioning her because they are not happy with her oxygen level.” She sat there and she told me, “Okay, now she's at 94.1%. Now she's at 94.2%. Now she's at 94.3%.” Every time that thing went up, she would tell me. She was just so calm and it was like she got me. She understood. Meagan: She understood what you needed in that moment. Lauren: Yes. Yes. Another thing too which I thought was really interesting is that first off, she did ask before she did anything. We got half of my daughter's head out but she got a little stuck so the doctor was like, “You know, we really want to get her out.” She said, “I think the vacuum might help or are you okay with me manually helping you?” I said, “What do you mean by that?” She said, “I could just insert my fingers and tilt her chin. I think that will get her out.” I said, “Yeah. Let's do that one.” So she did. She went in and popped her little chin and then she came out.Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: But it was nice to be asked instead of told what needed to be done. Meagan: Well not even told and just have it done. Lauren: Yeah, just do it. I've heard that a lot and it was crazy because that actually was going to happen with my first son. Before my nurses knew I was breech, they came in and they started. They were about to put medicine in my IV and I said, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing?” She's like, “Oh, this is Pitocin. We need to get your contractions started.” I was like, “No, I don't want Pitocin.” She's like, “We need to birth him within 24 hours or he's going to be a C-section.” So it was just crazy the difference in being told what was going to happen and being asked for not only my opinion but my consent. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. That's so important. Women of Strength, if you are listening to this, please, please, please I beg of you to help you know. I don't know how we can let you know even more but you guys have the power to say no and consent is so important. Your consent is so important with anything, even just getting Pitocin drips. If anything is happening to your body, you have the right to say no and you always can question. You can pause and say, “Tell me all of the risks here” or whatever. You don't just have to have it be done to you. You do not have to. Lauren: Yes. Meagan: It's hard to say no in that moment. Lauren: It is. It is. Meagan: It's hard to say no especially when they are coming in and making it sound like something you need. Whether it's something you need or not, you still deserve to have consent. Lauren: Yes, exactly. Then they throw that at you where it's like, “Oh, the baby will be in danger.” You're like, if you're not knowledgable then you'll be like, “Okay, then. I don't want my baby in danger.”Meagan: Exactly. Of course, we don't. Duh. Of course, we do not want our baby in danger but most of the time rarely is our baby in danger if we are not starting Pitocin right away. Yeah. Awesome. So you had this beautiful vaginal birth with support. It was a way different experience with good, true informed consent even into the postpartum period which should keep continuing anytime you are under care with anyone like this no matter in hospital or out of hospital. This kind of consent should continue. Lauren: Yes, for sure. Meagan: Awesome. Awesome. And then baby number three. Cute little baby. I don't know if I'm allowed to say his name so I won't. Lauren: Oh, yeah. You're fine. Ollie, yeah.Meagan: I was going to say I got to see on the recording just before we got started that he was another breechie. Lauren: Yes, he was. I was just like, Oh my goodness. His pregnancy was so similar to my first son. It was a little freaky. I had a lot of anxiety to work through because of that. I was like, This can't happen again. He was breech the entire time and basically stayed in the same position. He moved his little head around and that was about it. This time, I was I guess a little more– I don't know if cocky is the right word but confident that everything would be fine. I was a little more lazy. I didn't do as many walks as I should have. I sat on the couch a little more than the birth ball and things like that. I was like, Oh, he'll be fine. So at about 20 weeks when he was still breech, I was like, Maybe it won't be fine. Maybe I need to get this going. I started trying to do a little more of that stuff. Also, my doula had moved out of state so I was like, Oh no. Meagan: Dang it yeah. Lauren: I know it's so important and having a doula was definitely important for me. I started the search for a new doula which ended up turning out great. I loved both doulas so I was very pleased but I was very nervous. But yeah. I found my doula while I was pregnant and then I just had so much anxiety about my first son's birth that I needed a plan ahead of time basically. I talked to my doctor about it and I went in there just nervous to even bring it up. I said, “So he's still breech. I know that he's got plenty of time to turn but I am nervous because I have a history of this with my first son. He was breech and I had to have a C-section.” I said, “What are your thoughts on a breech vaginal?” She goes, “Well, I don't see why we couldn't.” I was like, “What?”Meagan: You're like, “I wasn't expecting that.” Lauren: She's like, “You've already had a VBAC. You did fine. He can't be sideways. He's got to be to where he could actually come out breech. It's just something that we'll talk about.” She did mention an ECV as well and she was like, “We've got a long way away but I don't have a problem doing a breech VBAC with you.” I immediately just felt so much relief. Meagan: I bet. Lauren: Yes. So we went along the pregnancy like that and then at 37+3 at 5:00 in the morning, my water broke. Meagan: 3 for 3 water breaking, you and I. They say 10% but when you're 3 for 3, you're like, “Hmm.”Lauren: That's what I was thinking and the breech stuff is only 3-4% are breech and I had it twice. It's like, How is this possible? But yeah, my water broke around 5:00 AM and me running to the bathroom, I woke my son up and he came in. It was really sweet. He got in bed with me and we just cuddled for about an hour and I talked to him about how his baby brother was going to come today. It was just a really nice moment to cuddle with him. Meagan: Oh yeah. Those moments are so precious because you're like, these are the last moments of just us as a family of 4 and now we're adding a 5th and these are the last little moments together without little siblings. I'll always remember that. So we did that. We cuddled for about an hour and then the contractions actually started without me having to pump. This time, I was going to wait a little bit longer before pumping because I wondered if the contractions every 2 hours with my daughter for the whole labor was maybe because of the pumping. Having contractions that close made things really difficult. Meagan: Oh yeah. Not a lot of a break. Every 2 minutes, there's not a ton of a break especially when they were a minute long. Not a lot there. Lauren: No. So I was like, Maybe that will change. I knew I could handle it but I was like, If I don't have to, that would be great. They started pretty slow about 6 minutes apart or so really gently. At around 6:00, I went ahead and woke my husband up and let him know. I called my parents. I had texted my doula but I went ahead and called her just to let her know. I called my doctor. She again just asked me, “What are your plans?” I just said, “Stay here to let things pick up and then head to the hospital.” She was like, “Okay, that sounds good.” I just labored at home. My parents live 2 hours away but they were coming to get our older two kids. I was going to try to pack the hospital bag because I had not done that yet. Meagan: Well, at 37 weeks. Lauren: That was the plan for that weekend. I kept having to sit down because of the contractions. My husband said, “Let me do it. Tell me what you need.” I would just give him the instructions as I just bounced on the birth ball. We got that done and my parents showed up. They brought me a big smoothie because I was like, “I want to eat but I don't want to chew so get me a smoothie.” That was really nice just to have something in my stomach and give me some energy and stuff. They got here at around 9:30 and at around almost 11:00, I was like, “These contractions are starting to feel real.” I had a first birth reference at that point. Meagan: Yeah, like more intense and frequent and strong. Lauren: Exactly. Oh, but I will say by 7:30 again, at 7:30 that morning, I was back at 2 minutes apart. Meagan: Oh man. It's just something your body does. Lauren: That's just me, yeah. But they weren't intense and this time, I knew. I was like, Okay. I know this is not intense. I'm still able to talk through them. I'm able to recover very well, but then right around 11:00, I was like, “Things are getting really intense now so I think we need to go.”We left for the hospital and let my doula know. I called my doctor as well and it was really wonderful talking to her too because she said, “You know, when you go in there, make sure you are confident. Tell them this is the plan. You are going to do a breech VBAC. We have already discussed this.” I think she was worried too. The hospital, I will say, I do not feel was supportive. I think it was mainly that they were scared. I think she knew that too, but having her in my corner was what I needed. Meagan: Yeah, very huge. Lauren: We got to the hospital and she had gone ahead and called them to directly admit me so I didn't have to do triage and all that. That made it so much quicker. We got there probably around 11:40 or so and we were already in our room and the doctor was coming in by 12:00. She came in and she checked me. She was like, “All right. You're already at about a 5 or a 6 so you're doing great.” She's like, “I'll be in the hospital for a while so they'll just call me when you need me. Just do your thing. I was like, “All right. Here we go.” I did get in the bed for a little while so they could do the IVs and stuff like that. I told them I wanted the wireless monitor. They were having trouble working it but they still never made me do any monitors because I told them I can't do continuous unless it is wireless because I need to be able to move. They didn't argue with that so that was nice. Once they got all that done, I got on the birth ball. We played some music that I had preplanned and my doula and my husband both helped me work through the contractions then it was 12:58 which was less than an hour when my body started pushing again. I'm like, You've got to be kidding me. I can't do this.They called the nurse in because I was like–Meagan: Last time this happened at 6 centimeters. Please don't tell me. Lauren: They came to check and she was like, “Oh my gosh, she's complete and he's right there.” I was like, “What?” Meagan: Yay!Lauren: Yes. They called my doctor. I was panicking a little bit but she wasn't there. She was in the hospital but because she wasn't in my room and I went from a 5 to complete in less than an hour, I'm like, “Is this baby just going to shoot out of me?” I was like, “I need her to be here.” Anyway, she got there very quickly and this time, I knew I didn't want to be on my back so they had me just try some different positions but I really liked when the bed was sat up and I was facing the back and leaned over it so I was upright. Then I was able to move my pelvis around and just find a comfortable position. I really liked that. I started pushing because I could. He just very, very slowly came out and my doula was recording because I wanted a recording of my last birth but I was just too out of it to even ask for it so I had let my husband and doula ahead of time that I wanted it so my doula took care of that. She was there recording it. Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: Yeah. I was pushing I remember this one hurt a lot more than my daughter. I think they stretch you differently. I remember panicking to my husband, “Oh my gosh. This hurts.” He was just slowly coming out but I couldn't see what was going on. With my daughter, they rolled out a mirror so I could see what was going on. I felt like I was pushing wine. I didn't ask him to but my husband stepped in and he was like, “Okay, I see a leg now. Oh, there goes the other leg.” He started just telling me body parts and I was able to get a visual which was so helpful to be able to know how much was coming out. When it got to his chest, it felt like my body was just like, Okay, we're done. The contractions just stopped and I was like, “What's going on? They were coming so fast and now they're just chilling out or whatever.” They were like, “It's fine. We'll just wait until the next contraction.” They did start coming back but it didn't feel as strong and it felt slower. I don't know what that was about. It could have just been my perception too. He came all the way out up to his neck and then he wasn't really coming much further after he got to his neck. The doctor was turning him because he had the cord wrapped around his neck twice. He just didn't seem to be moving like he was supposed to. She said, “I need to check and see if his head is flexed,” and it was not. She had to put both hands inside to flex his head so that it was in the correct position and she had turned him over to try and get some of the cord off as well. It got a little intense there for a minute. She said, “Okay. I need you to get on your hands and knees,” so I did that and that wasn't working. She said, “Okay, mom. I want to get you to flip over. I just need a different angle to get him out.” I flipped over on my back which I was completely fine with at that point. I wasn't panicked. I had a little bit of anxiety and fear but I wasn't really scared because my doctor seemed so confident in that she's got this. We just need to do something a little different to get him out. We flipped on my back and she got his head exactly where it needed to be. I did two more pushes and he came out. He had gotten stuck longer than they wanted him to so she said, “We're going to go ahead and cut the cord and get him to the nursery team who was coming in” because they needed to resuscitate him just from the time it took. Meagan: He was shocked Lauren: She said too, “He's going to be okay. He's trying to cry but he needs help.” I said, “Okay.” I felt good at that point. I knew that if he was trying to cry that he was still conscious. The NICU team– it was charted wrong how long he was stuck. I think they panicked a little bit because they just went and they intubated him immediately and they said, “Okay, we need to get him to the NICU.” I hadn't even touched him at that point. I said, “Can I touch him or kiss him or talk to him before you take him?” I asked my doctor that and she said, “Can you bring him over here so she can give him a little pat before you take him?” The nurse looked over and she goes, “She can see him from where she's at,” and they left with him. Meagan: Oh. Oh. Oh boy. Lauren: To me, it did feel like a punishment for doing a breech. They went back and looked and they charted that he was stuck for 5 minutes. We had a video and he was stuck for a minute and 40 seconds. Huge difference. Meagan: Very big, yeah. Lauren: They went immediately to what they would do with a baby who had been stuck for 5 minutes. They charted his APGAR as 0 but my doctor said, “It can't be because he whimpered when he got out so he's got to have at least something.” It was all just a big overreaction at that point. They were supposed to monitor him for 4 hours to make a decision and they immediately just made the decision to admit him to the NICU which meant he was stuck in NICU for at least 3 days. Then within– when I went to go see him, it was within 2 hours. They had already extubated him. He was already breathing on his own with no problems whatsoever. Meagan: He was fine. Lauren: Yeah, he was fine.The next morning, my doctor went and talked to the doctors–Meagan: The pediatricians? Lauren: Yeah. Yeah at the NICU and just let them know, “This is wrong in the chart. This is wrong in the chart,” educating them about breech VBAC. She also did talk to them about the behavior of the nurse and she said, “It was unacceptable.” They talked about that. Oh, because that same nurse, when I finally got up to the NICU to see him, she had her back turned and she didn't see me coming and I heard her talk. She goes, “Well, you know, he came out the wrong way.” Then she realized that I was behind her and she walked away. I never saw her after that. Meagan: She probably was avoiding you. Lauren: I was like, Oh my goodness. I can't believe that just happened. Meagan: Seriously. Obviously, she's got a chip on her shoulder toward people who are doing things that are actually normal, just a different variation. Lauren: After my doctor talked to them that morning, as soon as she left, they called me and they weren't going to let me breastfeed or hold him or anything like that because he had a central line in his umbilical cord and they said, “It's too risky. It could fall out.” As soon as she left, they were like, “We're going to actually let you try to latch and hold him. We'll just have to be really careful.” Meagan: Good for your doctor for advocating for you guys. Lauren: That was one of my things that I just really love about her. That's not something that she had to do. She took the time out to review everything that night. I had him on a Saturday so she reviewed everything that night, got up early the next morning, went to the NICU, advocated for me, and I'll just never forget her for that. She's my angel.Meagan: Yeah. That's how it should be. That's really how it should be. Are you willing to share her name for anyone looking for VBAC support and especially for breech? Lauren: Yeah. Her name is Dr. Robinson and she's at Alabama Women's Wellness Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: Yes. It's really hard to find a VBAC-supportive provider in Alabama but breech VBAC? That's hard anywhere. Meagan: I have Alabama Women's Wellness Center because we have our supportive provider list that we are working on right now to perfect so everybody can get access to that in a better way and we don't have her on there so I'll make sure to add her. Lauren: Yes. Thank you. Yeah. She's amazing. That's probably an understatement. Meagan: She sounds absolutely incredible. I'm just so happy for you. I'm so glad that you had that advocate through a provider and it sounds like the second time, it was a little bit more of that informed consent, truly wanting to incorporate you into this experience with a little less of that the second time, but holy cow. Amazing. A minute and 40 seconds, that might feel like an eternity to someone watching, but really, that's actually pretty quick and your provider knew, “Okay, let's change positions. Let's move. Let's get this going,” and baby's out. It can be common for babies to come out a little stunned breech or not breech. Sometimes they come out a little stunned and you also had a really fast transition so you went from a 5 to a 10 really fast. There are a lot of things to take into consideration there for sure. Lauren: Yeah. I think she said that they charted from the time his butt came out is what they told her and with a breech, you're supposed to chart once the shoulders are out. Meagan: Yeah, the shoulders and the neck. That makes sense that they got that mixed up. Well, I wanted to go over the different types of breech. You already said this earlier that it's kind of crazy that 3-4% of people will have a full-term breech and I know baby number one was 36 weeks but pretty much right there right around the corner of full-term. But 3-4% and you've had two so it's pretty low but we know that breech is happening. It's just not being supported. I wanted to talk about a couple of different things.There are different types of breech and that is something that I think is important to know. We've got frank breech and that's where the baby's butt is down into the vaginal canal or down and the legs are sticking right up where the baby's feet are in front. Do you know if your baby was frank breech? Lauren: Yeah, they were both frank. Meagan: Yeah. That's typically where a provider, if they are supportive, will allow a vaginal birth, and then complete breech is where the butt is down and both the hips and knees are flexed. Footling is where one or sometimes both– it's like they are either standing inside or where they are being a flamingo and doing a one-foot thing facing down. Or we know that there is transverse where the baby is sideways. Footling and transverse– I mean, transverse for sure cannot come out vaginally. Footling has some more concerns so most providers will not support that. Anyway, overall, my suggestion is if you have a breech, one, know the options to try to help rotate a baby. If you so choose, there are also risks to ECVs. We have a blog around ECV and we want to make sure it's in the show notes. We are going to link some more about breech babies as well but know that you have options. You do have options. It's not like Lauren's first where she walked in and was felt that she was stripped away of all the options. If you're looking for a VBAC-supportive provider, something that I always tell my clients and I need to suggest this more on the podcast is while you are asking questions like, “How do you support VBAC?” and all of these questions talk about, one of those questions is “What if my baby's breech? What does that look like?” I think that's a really great question to add in there because then you can know, “Okay, not only is this provider VBAC-supportive, but they are even breech-supportive.” We never know. Sometimes babies just flip and sometimes they flip in the very end. It's very rare but it happens so it's just really important to know. Add that to your list of questions as you are going through and asking for support for VBAC how they are for breech. Do you have any other things that you would suggest for someone maybe going to have or deciding to have a breech birth in general? Lauren: Just try to be as knowledgeable as you can about it because that gave me a lot of peace just knowing all the facts and just the knowledge. It made me feel a lot more comfortable with it all. Meagan: Absolutely. It sounds like you did. You just told me a stat just barely so it sounds like you are very confident and you know about breech. I would suggest the same thing. Know the pros and the cons of all three– ECV, breech vaginal, and Cesarean. Let's learn all of them. Well, thank you so much for being here with me today and sharing all of your beautiful birth stories and letting me meet your sweet Ollie via Zoom and sharing these stories to empower other Women of Strength to make the best choice for them. Lauren: Yes. I really appreciate it. I was very excited when you asked me to come on. Meagan: Oh my gosh. We are so happy to have you. Lauren: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Midway through her pregnancy, Hope's baby was diagnosed as growth restricted (IUGR), but despite concern from her doctors, Hope's intuition was telling her the baby was okay. Her baby was also breech at that point, and never did turn. She was recommended to have a planned cesarean at 37 weeks due to both the IUGR diagnosis and the breech positioning, but this never sat right with her. She kept asking questions to her care team that she felt were not adequately answered. Amazingly, the hospital scheduled her for this cesarean at 37 weeks, after a planned ECV, without her knowledge or consent. A nurse accidentally tipped her off! Around the same time, Hope found stories of other women who vaginally birthed breech babies. Now that she knew it was possible, the question was how to find the right support for her to do it at home. She was able to find a midwife trained with Breech without Borders. Her baby was born perfectly healthy at 42 weeks after a ten hour labor. By listening to her instincts and birthing at home, she avoided what would have almost certainly been a NICU stay necessitated by having a cesarean at 37 weeks. Her story is an amazing testament to how important and valid maternal intuition truly is. Follow Hope @hope_jckson If you love the show, I would greatly appreciate a review on  Spotify or Apple Podcasts!  Follow me on Instagram @healingbirth Do you have a birth story you'd like to share on the podcast, or would like to otherwise connect? I love to hear from you! Send me a note at contactus@healingbirth.net Check out the website for lots of other birth related offerings, and personalized support: www.healingbirth.net Intro / outro music: Dreams by Markvard

If you or someone you know has a mobility device such as a wheelchair or ECV, navigating the parks is a completely different monster! We're going over some considerations you need to make to accommodate these guests in your party and some services offered to all guests at Disneyland. We will not be discussing DAS, though, since that's a completely different beast. Save on your next trip through our friends at Get Away Today - https://www.getawaytoday.com/tickets/disneyland-resort?referrerid=7594 Subscribe and follow us for more! Facebook - @Disneyland4Ever Instagram - @disneylnd4evr Threads - @disneylnd4evr Like what you hear? Offer your support by buying us a churro: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/disneyland4ever

Lauren has had three very different births. She had a peaceful C-section due to breech presentation with a difficult recovery, a wild, unmedicated VBAC, and a calm, medicated 2VBAC. Due to her baby's large size, she had to have an extra incision made during her Cesarean leaving her with a special J scar. Though her provider was hesitant to support a TOLAC with a special scar, Lauren advocated for herself by creating a special relationship with her OB and they were able to move forward together to help Lauren achieve both of her VBACs. Lauren talks about the importance of having an open mind toward interventions as she was firmly against many of the things that ended up making her second VBAC the most redemptive and healing experience of all. How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey, hey everybody. Guess what? We have our friend Lauren and her 11-day-old baby. Is that right? Lauren: Yeah. Meagan: 11 days old. You guys, I actually didn't even know that this baby existed until we popped up on the Zoom and she was holding this precious little newborn. She was like, “Surprise! I had another VBAC.” So we will be sharing, well she will be sharing her two VBACs so 2VBAC and something kind of unique about Lauren is that she has a special scar, a special J scar, correct? Lauren: Yep. Meagan: Yeah, so that happened in her first C-section. If you are listening and you have a special scar or have been told that you have a special scar, this is definitely an episode that you are going to want to put on repeat and save because I know that there are so many people out there who are told that they have a special scar and that they should never or can never VBAC again. I know we're not even getting into the story quite yet, Lauren, but did you have any flack with that? Did anyone talk about your special scar at all? Lauren: Yes. Advocating for the VBAC is probably the overarching theme of my VBAC because I really had to go to bat for myself for that without switching providers. Meagan: Yeah. We know that's so common. We see it a lot in our community just in general trying to get a VBAC let alone a VBAC with a special scar. We are going to get into her story but I have a review and I didn't even know that this was a review. It was left in a Baby Bump Canada group on Reddit actually so that was kind of fun to find. It's really nice. It says, “Seriously, I'm addicted. I find them so healing. I had an unplanned and very much unwanted C-section and I have been unknowingly carrying around all of these emotions and trauma about it since. I thought I was empowered going into my first birth, but I wasn't strong enough to stop the medical staff with all of their interventions. Don't get me wrong, I believe interventions are necessary in some instances. But looking back now, I realize those interventions were put in place to make things easier involved in delivering my baby. Anyway, I won't get into all of that here, maybe in a separate post. The point of my post is checking out The VBAC Link podcast. I listen to them all day now while caring for my babe. They also have a course you can take focusing on preparing for VBACs. Even if you just like birth stories, they have CBAC stories I believe as well. On the podcast, a guest also pointed out that what do you want for a VBAC birth– peace, redemption, etc.? She talked about how you can still feel those things if you need a Cesarean.” I love that point of view right there that you can still have peace and redemption even if you have a scheduled C-section or if your VBAC ends in a Cesarean. It says, “Another mom pointed out when she was feeling hesitant about saying okay to a C-section, her midwife said, ‘You have permission to get a C-section,' not in a way that a midwife was giving her permission, but telling this mom, ‘C-section is okay and you shouldn't feel like having one is wrong.' My baby is 8.5 months and we aren't going to try for a baby until they're about 18-24 months mostly to increase my chances of VBAC, but I really love these podcasts.” Then she says, “Okay, I'll stop raving now.” I love that. Her title is, “If you're considering a VBAC, I highly recommend The VBAC Link.” Thank you so much to– I don't actually know what your name is. Catasuperawesome on this Baby Bump Canada group. Just thank you so much for your review. As always, these reviews brighten our day here at The VBAC Link but most importantly, they help other Women of Strength find these stories like what we are going to be sharing today with Lauren's story. They help people feel empowered and educated and motivated and even first-time moms. They are really truly helping people learn how to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. I truly believe that from the bottom of my heart. Meagan: Okay, Lauren. As you are rocking your sweet, precious babe, I would love to turn the time over to you to share your stories. Lauren: Awesome, thank you. It's so nice to be here finally. I'm so excited because this podcast truly is the reason why I had my VBAC. I am kind of weirdly unique in that I didn't really feel like I had any mothering instincts. My husband and I had been married for 6.5 years before we decided to get pregnant because I always swore off children. I said, “It's not for me. I'm never going to have children. I want to travel and I want to do all of these things and children are for other people. I can't imagine myself as a mom.” My husband said, “Well, let's wait until we are 30,” because we got married really young. He was like, “Let's just wait until we are 30 and we will revisit the discussion.” I always find it kind of nice when I hear stories of women who feel similarly to the way I did because it's so relatable and I feel like we are very few and far between. That's another reason I wanted to share my story because I know there are other women out there like me. So anyway, it just so happened that at this time, my sister was pregnant. My brother was pregnant. My husband's brother was pregnant. We were like, “You know, we're almost 30. We've waited a long time. If we're going to have kids, we might as well have a kid when he or she is going to have all of these cousins.” My husband was like, “Let's start trying.” I'm like, “Great. I'm going to give it two months and if we don't get pregnant, we're not going forward with this. I'm going to say I tried and I can tell everyone I tried and that it didn't work.” Well, God has a sense of humor because two weeks later, I had a positive pregnancy test. Meagan: Two weeks later? Lauren: Yes. Meagan: So you were already pregnant when you had this conversation. Lauren: I was already taking birth control. I was multiple days into the pack. I just threw it in the trash and was like, “Let's just see what happens.” I guess when you do that, you can get pregnant. I don't know. I didn't really have a cycle. I got pregnant. I was so naive about how it all worked. I'm like, “Okay. The test is positive. I'm pregnant. It is what it is. I'm very much pregnant.” I had not doubt. I had no worry about miscarriage, nothing because I had a positive pregnancy test. That's sort of how I went through my pregnancy, kind of disconnected, very naive, and a little bit in denial that I was actually pregnant all the way up until the end. I read one book and it was called The Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy and it's this really sarcastic, funny book. She's very flippant about pregnancy and very straightforward with my sense of humor. I liked it because I felt the same way. I wasn't mushy or emotional. I had no connection to the pregnancy. I am pregnant. That's a fact. Anyway, at 26 weeks, my doctor was like, “You know, I think he's breech.” I was like, “Okay.” I knew what breech was, but I'm like, “Okay, what does that mean?” She was like, “Well, I would start doing some Spinning Babies exercises. Let's just keep an eye on it. I was going to a chiropractor this whole time. This is important for people to know. I was going to a chiropractor before I even got pregnant regularly. This chiropractor was seeing me. I told her that the baby was breech. “Can you help me flip him? Can we do some bodywork?” I continued to see her. I don't know if it was once or twice a week but it was often. 36 weeks rolls around and I see the midwife in the practice. She is not finding the heartbeat where it should be. She finds it up higher and she goes, “Lauren, I think your baby is still breech.” I thought there was no way. I had been seeing a chiropractor. I had been doing body work and stuff. She was like, “Well, why don't you go see the chiropractor that our practice recommends?” I'm like, “Okay.” I call this chiropractor on the phone. I leave her a message and I'm like, “I've been seeing another chiropractor, but my baby is breech.” She immediately called me right back and she was like, “What has the chiropractor been doing?” I'm like, “It feels like a normal adjustment like nothing different from before I was pregnant.” She was like, “So you've been on your side and she's been twisting your back and your pelvis away from each other?” You know how they do those kinds of adjustments? I said, “Yes.” She was like, “Oh my gosh.” She's like, “How soon can you come see me?” I started seeing her. My OB actually also recommended moxibustion. She got me set up with an acupuncturist in the area which I thought was really cool that she was like, “Some people say they swear by this. You need to do more Spinning Babies. I want you to go to acupuncture.” I saw this chiropractor and she was like, “What that chiropractor is doing to you is not pregnancy-safe. She's not Webster-certified and you needed to be seeing a Webster-certified chiropractor.” That's one of my regrets because I feel like had I known, obviously, I can't say I blame her 100%. I was also working out a ton because I'm like, “I don't want this pregnancy to change my body. I'm going to be skinny.” That's all I cared about so I'm sure I was holding my abdominal muscles way too tight too. I'm sure I contributed to it as well, but just knowing that probably was a major contributor to what ended up happening to this day irritates me. But anyway, he never flipped. He was solidly in my ribcage. He never moved. I would push on his head and he would not even budge an inch. My doctor was like, “You know, I would normally recommend an ECV, but he seems very wedged in your rib cage. He's stargazing,” which means his head is tilted up. His chin is pointed up. She said, “You are on the low end of normal for amniotic fluid.” She was like, “You have these three strikes against you basically. We can try it if you want to try it, but I'm going to say it's probably not going to work.” I had to wrestle with that. I ended up calling my husband's aunt who is a labor and delivery nurse for 30 years. I asked her for her opinion. I'm like, “Have you ever been in on an ECV? Tell me about it.” Naively, I went with her advice. She said, “If your doctor is not confident, then that means it's not going to work.” She's like, “I've seen so many births and I believe that every baby should be delivered via C-section because birth is dangerous and it's scary.” I'm like, “Okay, okay. I'm just going to move forward with the C-section. I'm so glad I talked to you.” Meagan: Whoa. Lauren: We scheduled the C-section and you know what? It really wasn't that big of a deal. My friend's husband was actually my anesthesiologist. My doctor was there. It was very happy. It was very pleasant. I had gone out to dinner with my friends the night before. If you could plan the perfect C-section, it was the perfect C-section. I just talked to my friend's husband the whole time. Again, not connected to this pregnancy at all. It was very much like, “Okay, a baby is going to come out. What is this going to be like?” I remember the doctor held him up over the curtain. I made eye contact with him and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm a mom.” The nurse was like, “Do you want to do skin-to-skin?” I was like, “What's that? Sure.” “Do you want to breastfeed?” “I think so. Sure.” Very naive. What ended up happening was that the recovery was just really tough. The surgery was great, but I did not expect the recovery to be so tough. I feel like the way people speak of C-sections is so casual. “Oh, just have a C-section. I had C-sections for all my babies. It's no big deal. It's a cakewalk.” That's the mindset I went into it with. Same with my husband because I reassured him, “It's no big deal. We're just going with the flow.” No. It's awful. It's major surgery. I'm allergic to– I think a lot of people are– the duramorph that they put in the spinal so I had the most severe, horrible itching for 24 hours to the point that they basically overdosed me on Benadryl because I could not cope and my vitals were crashing. I was barely having any respiration. They had to shake me awake and put cold washcloths on my head. They were like, “Hello,” because I was having such a hard time with the itching. Not only that, but the pain. It's painful. In my surgery, backing up a little bit, the doctor said, “Wow. He's really wedged in there and he's a lot bigger than I expected. I thought he was going to be maybe 7.5-7.25 pounds.” She goes, “He tore your incision coming out because he was so big.” She was like, “You have a J incision now so your incision goes horizontal and then vertically up.” She said, “Unfortunately, that means you'll never be able to have a VBAC. You're just going to be a C-section mama.” I was just lying there like, “Whatever. You're asking me what skin-to-skin is and breastfeeding and no vaginal births.” It was just a lot of information to process and take in and make decisions about. He ended up being 9 pounds. He was a good-sized baby. Anyway, that was my c-section experience. I know I'm probably one of the lucky few who could say that their C-section was so peaceful, really no trauma from it. I just thought, “I'm fine with that.” I watched my sister have a failed TOLAC and it looked kind of traumatizing and she was still traumatized from it just a couple months before my C-section so I'm like, “It's fine. I'll just be a C-section mom, but that recovery was terrible so I'll have one more baby and that's it.” I'm not going to have any more kids. I don't want to experience that again. That was May 2019. Fast forward to COVID times. We were thinking about getting pregnant before my son turned one but COVID hit so we were like, “Let's just give it a couple of months and see what shakes up with this pandemic.” The world stopped. I'm in real estate so for a while, we weren't allowed to show any property or do anything so I just was sitting at home doing nothing. I remember one night, I was just sitting there doing a puzzle bored as heck and I'm like, “I'm going to go listen to a podcast while I do this.” My phone suggested The Birth Hour. I hope I'm allowed to say that. Meagan: I love The Birth Hour, yes. Lauren: I was scrolling through the episodes and there was one on VBAC. I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to listen to this.” The interviewee mentioned The VBAC Link so I was like, Okay, I should check that podcast out. I was like, Why am I even listening to this? This is so not my wheelhouse, childbirth. I still didn't care about it, but listening to these podcasts opened up a whole new world for me. I'm so glad I found it all before I got pregnant. I started listening to all of those podcasts then I think I found through your podcast. I don't think it was The Birth Hour. Someone mentioned Dr. Stu so I started listening to his podcast and man, that guy set fire. He had so much great information. I listened to every podcast pretty much that he had done, especially the ones on VBAC because he talks about VBAC a lot and just how it really shouldn't be a big deal or shouldn't make you high risk and all of that. At the time, he was still graciously reviewing people's op-reports for them and now he doesn't do that. I think you have to pay for it, but I emailed him. I reached out to him and I emailed him my op report and I just said, “If you could look at this, my provider told me I wasn't a VBAC candidate but I want your opinion.” He got right back to me and he was like, “There's no reason you can't have a VBAC. This scar is really not that big of a deal. Yes, it's a special scar, but it shouldn't take away from your opportunity to TOLAC.” I ended up getting pregnant in the fall of 2020 and I went to my first appointment and my OB was like, “What do you want to do for your birth this time?” I'm like, “Did she forget what she told me? She must have forgotten.” I was like, “I want a VBAC.” She was like, “Okay, I'll give you my VBAC consent form and we can talk about it as your pregnancy progresses.” I'm like, “Okay, cool.” I saw her again at 12 weeks and she was like, “I'm having some hesitations because you had such a big baby and your scar is not normal. I think we need to talk about this a little bit more but let's not worry abou tit now. We can put it off and worry about it later.” I was like, “Okay.” I was so bummed because I love my OB. Funny story, I met my OB when I was worked for a home design company called Pottery Barn and I met her one day just helping her buy pillows. I'm like, “What do you do for work?” She was like, “I'm an OB.” I'm like, “Cool. I need an OB.” I had just moved to the area so I just started seeing her. I think I was one of her first patients so she knew me. It wasn't like she was a friend and a provider I only saw once a year, but we always picked up where we left off. We had a good relationship. I really did not want to change providers. I don't want this to sound like I was being manipulative, but I was like, I'm just going to really lean into this good relationship we have and just try to win her over. As the pregnancy progressed, at the next appointment I think I saw a midwife. I talked to the midwife about the VBAC and my OB's opinion and she was like, “I've seen a lot of women VBAC with a J scar at my old practice. I don't think it's a big deal, but I'll talk to the doctor for you and hopefully, we can figure this out.” I was like, “Okay.” Then I want to say I went to my 20-week appointment and they told me, “Okay, your baby is gigantic.” They said, “He is going to be between 9 and 10 pounds,” because he was measuring two weeks ahead. They said, “But the other concern we have is that you have marginal cord insertion and that could make for a small baby.” I'm like, “Okay, so is he big, or is he small?” Clearly that marginal cord insertion is helping him not being 12 pounds? What are you trying to tell me? They're like, “Either way, we suggest that you come back at 32 weeks. We have concerns about his size. He might be a tiny peanut. He might be enormous.” I'm like, “I think I'm good. Thanks, but no thanks.” Thanks to you guys, you push advocation so much that I'm like, “This doesn't add up. You can't tell me that he's too big and too small. I'm just going to go with fundal height and palpation if my doctor has a concern, we'll come back.” I never scheduled that growth scan. I was very protective of this pregnancy. I didn't want any outside opinions. I was so afraid that if I went and had this growth scan, I would be pushed to do a C-section. I wanted an unmedicated birth. I was terrified of the hospital. I was listening to so many podcasts all day every day. It was like an obsession so then I told Meagan before we were recording is that I felt like I was almost idolizing the VBAC. It was all I could think about. It was all I could talk about and it became this unhealthy obsession. Right around 25-26 weeks, I decided to hire a doula and move forward with the VBAC. It didn't matter to me what the doctor said. Right around that time, I was having some hesitations. Just getting that pushback from my doctor and knowing he was big, I started to let the fear creep in. I told my husband, “You know what? Maybe we should just do a C-section. I think I'm overanalyzing this so much. I'm just going to push aside this research I have done because clearly I'm obsessed and it's consuming me.” Meagan: Yeah, which is easy to do. Just to let you know, it really is easy to let it consume you. Lauren: It totally is. I think that we have to take a step back sometimes, come back to reality, and if you let the information override your instincts which I think is really easy to do, I think you can get too wound up or too set on something that might not be meant for you. Speaking of instincts, that night, I still remember. I had told my husband, “I'm just going to have a C-section.” I went to bed and I had a dream. I was in the hospital in the dream and I was holding my baby and my dad walked in. I have a really great relationship with my parents but especially my dad. I love my dad. He comes in the room and he's like, “How did it go?” He was meeting the baby for the first time and I burst into tears in the dream. I said, “Dad, I didn't even give myself the opportunity to VBAC. I just went in for a C-section. I just have so much regret about it and what could have happened if I had tried to have a VBAC.” Meagan: That just gave me the chills. Lauren: Yes. It was so weird. I have never really had a dream like that before. I woke up and I was like, “There's my answer. I have to move forward with this.” Having that dream gave me this peace that there is the instinct I need to follow. Yes, I have all of this information that is consuming me, but it was like, Keep going. I hired a doula which I found through The VBAC Link Facebook page. I put it out there, “Does anyone know a doula in my area?” Julie commented and it happened to be her really good friend who had just moved back to my area. I called her and it turned out that we had mutual friends. We connected really fast. I think, like I said, it was about 26 weeks. I go to my OB again and we had more of a pow-wow like a back-and-forth on the VBAC option. She was like, “I'm just worried about it. A C-section is not that big of a deal. We could just tie your tubes and then you won't have pelvic floor issues.” False. I said, “I got a second opinion from another doctor.” I didn't say it was Dr. Stu. I didn't say it was some guy with a podcast in LA. I said, “I got a second opinion and I feel like I just want the opportunity.” We didn't really land on anything solid, but she got up to leave the room and she got to the door and she turns around. She came back over to me and she gave me this big hug. She said, “I don't want to disappoint you. I want you to be happy, but let's keep talking about this.” I was like, “Okay.” That gave me a little bit of reassurance that I was leaning into that relationship I had built with her over the years because it had been 6 or 7 years of seeing her. I would also bring her flowers. I would always try to talk to her about her life and making a social connection with someone. If you let your doctor intimidate you just from the standpoint of being a stranger, I feel like that can really change the course of your care. But if you try to get to know people, and that's not necessarily a manipulative thing, but I think it's important. It should be important in your relationship with your doctor. If you don't feel like you can connect with them, there is issue number one, but I really felt like I could connect with her. I leaned into that. I have a cookie business on the side. She loved my cookies. We just had some other things to talk about other than my healthcare and I feel like it set this foundation of mutual respect. What doctor comes over, gives you a hug, and tells you, “I want you to love your birth”? So fast forward again, I see her again the next time and she said, “Look. I brought your case to my team and because we support moms who have had two C-sections, we felt like your risk is similar to theirs and that it shouldn't risk you out of a TOLAC so I'm going to support you if this is what you want.” I had given her this analogy that I think was Julie's analogy. She said, “If you needed heart surgery and you were told that you had a 98% chance of success–” because I think my risk of rupture was 2% or maybe a little bit lower, maybe 1.5. I told her this. I'm like, “If you told me I needed heart surgery and I had a 98 or 99% chance of success, we would do it. There would be no question. I have this 1% risk of rupture. I'm coming to the hospital. What gives? I should at least be able to try.” The problem is, I'm sure some people are like, “Why didn't you just switch providers?” We have three hospitals in my area. One is 20 minutes from me and two are one hour away. One of them which is an hour away is the only place where I can VBAC and there isn't a VBAC ban. There is maybe a handful of providers who deliver there. I knew my provider was VBAC-supportive sort of. She had the most experience of a lot of the providers around me so that's why I didn't switch. I had very minimal options for care. I couldn't go to LA or I couldn't go somewhere further away. It would be a four-hour drive either way. We are in an isolated area. I felt like that was a huge win. We are set to go. I remember I told Katrina. Katrina was so happy for me, my doula. I just soldiered on. I started taking Dr. Christopher's Birth Prep at 36 weeks. I was doing my dates and I was really busy in real estate. That's part of my story. I was so busy working super hard and I was getting to the end of my pregnancy. At 38 weeks, I went in and I had clients lined up showings coming up. I was like, “I can't have a baby anytime soon.” I was talking to my provider about it. “Maybe at 40 weeks, we can talk about a membrane sweep or something. I have so much on my plate. I can't have a baby this week.” My husband is a firefighter and his shift that he was going to be taking off was starting maybe the following week. I'm like, “He's not even going to be home. He's going to be gone most of this week. This is a horrible week to have a baby.” I let her check my cervix because I'm like, “I want to see if my birth prep or my dates are doing anything.” At the same time, I still had this fear of, What if I do all of this work and I don't even dilate? That was kind of what happened with my sister so I had that fear in the back of my mind. She checks me and she was like, “You are 2 centimeters dilated, 50% effaced. You're going to make it to your due date no problem. We're not even going to talk about an induction until 41 weeks.” She was like, “I'm just not worried about it. He doesn't feel that big to me. He doesn't feel small. He doesn't feel too big. He feels like a great size.” I said, “I know. I feel really confident that he's going to be 8 pounds, 2 ounces.” I spoke that out. I said, “That's my gut feeling. I just have so much confidence and peace about this birth. I just know it's going to work out.” I go on my merry little way from that appointment. I'm walking around. We had gone down to the beach. We were walking around and I'm like, “Man, I'm so crampy. For some reason, that check made me so, so crampy.” This was 38 weeks exactly. We go back home and I have prodromal labor that night. I'm telling Katrina about it. She goes, “You know, I bet the check irritated your uterus.” The next day, I start having some bloody discharge. I'm like, “What is this? What does this mean?” I told Katrina and she said, “It could mean nothing. It could mean labor is coming soon. We'll just have to see.” I hadn't slept the whole night before. She was like, “You need to get a good night's sleep.” I had to show property all day. I met these clients for the first time. I showed four or five houses to them and meanwhile, I'm like, “Gosh, I'm so sore and tired and crampy.” I told them, “I'm very obviously pregnant, but my due date is not until the end of the month.” This was June 10th and my due date was June 23rd. I said, “We have time. If you need to see houses, it shouldn't be a big deal. I don't want my pregnancy to scare you away.”That night, I get home and I'm like, “I'm going to bed. It's 8:00. I'm going to bed. I'm going to take Benadryl and I'm going to get the best night's sleep.” They call me at 9:00 PM and they're like, “Lauren, we saw this house online. It's brand new on the market. We have to see it.” They lived a couple of hours away so I'm like, “I'll go and I'll Facetime you from the house. I'll go tomorrow.” Tomorrow being June 11th. I'm like, “We'll make it happen. I promise I will get you a showing on this house.”I texted Katrina and I'm like, “Oh my gosh. I feel so crampy and so sore. Something might be going on, but I have to work tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.” I wake up the next morning. It's now June 11th and I lose my mucus plug immediately first thing. There was some blood. It was basically bloody show. I told Katrina and she's like, “Okay, just keep me posted. I have a feeling he's going to come this weekend. It was a Friday. I'm like, “Well, he can't because my husband works Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I don't have time to have a baby.” We go to the showing. I'm finally alone without my toddler and my husband. I'm in the car and I'm like, “Man, my lower back hurts. It's just coming and going but nothing to write home about, just a little bit of cramping.” Of course, I never went into labor with my first so I did not know what to expect. I get to the showing and this house had a really steep staircase. I'm Facetiming my clients and I'm going up the stairs. It was probably at noon and I'm thinking to myself, Man, it's really hard to go up these stairs. Why do I feel so funny? I finish up the showing and they're like, “We want the house. This is the house for us.” I get back in the car. I'm getting all of their information. I'm talking to the other agent. I start the offer and I'm like, “I'm just going to drive home and get in my bed because I don't feel good. I'm just going to write this offer from my bed and everything will be fine.” I get home and I tell my husband at 2:30, “I'm just going to sit in our bed and get this offer sent off.” Mind you, I had a work event, a big awards event that night for my whole office and we were going to have to leave at 4:00 PM. My in-laws were going to come get my son and take him to sleep over. It's 2:30. I'm writing this offer and I'm like, “I don't feel good.” My partner calls me. I tell her, “Listen, I don't know if I'm in labor, but I don't feel well. Maybe I have a stomach bug. I'm going to write this offer. I'm going to give you my clients' information and I want you to take over for me a little bit. They know I'm really pregnant, but this could just be a sickness but either way if something happens, I want them to have the best care and be taken care of if we are going to send this offer off.” I send the offer off. It's 3:30 at this point. I close my computer and I'm waiting for them to DocuSign. I text my husband, “There's no way I'm going tonight. I don't feel well. Something is up. I'm not sure what.” He didn't see my text for a little while. He comes in the room at 4:00 and he starts to talk to me. I literally fall to the ground with my first contraction. I'm in active labor.I don't know it yet, but I'm in active labor. I'm just like, “It feels like there's a wave crashing in my body.” That was the best way I could describe it. I'm like, “I feel this building. It's an ebb and flow,” but it reminded me of playing in the waves as a kid because I grew up in Orange County at the beach and just that feeling of the waves hitting you when you are playing in the surf. I'm like, “This is really intense. What is going on?” I'm like, “I'm certain it's a stomach bug.” I told him, “I have gas or something.” I was just like, “I'm going to give myself an enema and this will all go away.” I did that and sitting down on the toilet, I was like, “Oh my gosh.” It made everything so much more intense. I texted Katrina, “Something is going on. I'm not really sure it is.” She's like, “Well, why don't you try timing some contractions for me and let me know?” I crawl into my closet. I can hear my son and my husband getting ready. My son was 2 so of course, 2-year-olds are not always behaving. I can hear them interacting. I crawl into my closet and I'm lying on the floor in the dark. The contractions are 3.5-4 minutes apart lasting a minute. I was like, “I'm still pretty sure this is a stomach thing that is happening every 3-4 minutes.” I call Katrina and I'm like, “I don't know. I think I'm in labor. This is the length of my contractions. It's probably just prodromal.” I had so much prodromal.She was like, “Um, it doesn't really sound like prodromal labor, but I'll let you just figure it out. You let me know when you are ready for support. Make sure you are eating anything. Have you eaten anything today?” “No.” “Have you had any water?” “Not really.” “Okay. Please eat something. Please drink some water and keep me posted.” She goes, “Can you talk through the contractions?” I said, “I can cry.” She's like, “Okay. I'm ready to go as soon as you tell me.” Then the next thing I know, literally, this is probably an hour later so at 4:00 I had my first contraction. Now it's 5:00 and I'm like, “The contractions are 3 minutes apart and lasting a minute.” I said, “Maybe you should come over. I think Sean (my husband) is getting a little nervous.” We were still so naive. We didn't know what labor looked like and what was going on. We were like, “If we're not going to the event, why don't we just keep August (my son) at home? I'll just make him dinner and I'm going to make you dinner.” He starts prepping dinner and I'm like, “I don't think either of us really know what's going on.” Of course, Katrina knew what was going on and probably thought I was a crazy person but I was very much in denial. We texted her to come over and she gets there. I'm lying in my bed and she's like, “Okay, yeah. They're coming 2.5-3 minutes apart. If you're ready to go to the hospital, I'm ready to go with you.” I'm mooing through these contractions, vocalizing everything. I'm like, “It just feels good to vocalize and I just really keep having to use the bathroom. It's probably just my stomach.” She's like, “No.” I can hear her outside my bathroom telling my husband, “I think we should go. She's really vocalizing a lot and that usually means it's pretty substantial, active labor.” Meanwhile, all I can think about is, “I've got to get this offer in for my clients.” I'm waiting on DocuSign, checking my email. Finally, it comes through. This is 6:00, maybe 6:30. I see it come in. I send it off and I'm standing at my kitchen counter with my computer on, mooing, doing this freaking offer. I go to cross my legs as I'm leaning over and I'm like, “I can't cross my legs, Katrina. I feel like my bones are separating.” She's like, “Yeah, baby is probably descending into your pelvis. I think we should get going if you're okay with going.” We have a 45 to an hour drive depending on traffic and the time of day. It's a Friday night so basically where I live, there's not a ton of traffic but we get in the car. She's following us and we get to the hospital. It's probably 7:15-7:30 or something like that. I'm telling my husband as I'm mooing through these contractions, “This really isn't that bad. If this is labor, it's intense and it feels like there's an earthquake in my body, but I would not tell you that I'm in any pain right now.” He's like, “Okay, whatever you say lady.” We ended up having to walk across the whole hospital parking lot to the ER because the regular hospital entrance was closed. As soon as we walked in the hospital, the hormones changed. The adrenaline kicks in. I start feeling pain. I start feeling a little bit panicky and it starts getting harder to cope through these contractions. I'm on the floor of the triage room crying into a trash can and everyone is staring at me. Katrina's like, “They need to stop staring!” She was trying to defend me while my husband is answering all of their dumb questions like, “What's your favorite color? What city is your mom born in?” They're like, “Let's just put you in a wheelchair and get you up there.” I'm like, “I can't sit.” Anytime I tried to sit, the contractions were a minute apart and they were so intense. I get there and I was so protective of this birth and outside interventions, I just was like, “Everything is evil. Cervical checks are evil. The epidural is evil. Everything is going to make me have a C-section.” I was like, “I don't want to know how dilated I am. I don't want anyone in this room to know except the nurse. That's who is allowed to know how dilated I am.” She checks me and the doctor comes in. It was the hospitalist and of all the providers in my area, it was miraculous that I got this hospitalist because he has so much experience. He is so calm, so kind, so supportive. He just said, “Hi, Lauren. I'm Dr. so-and-so and you're in labor. Happy laboring.” No concerns about my TOLAC, nothing. He didn't even bring it up. He didn't ask to check, nothing. Just, “Happy laboring,” and he left the room. I'm like, “Okay. Clearly I'm in active labor.” So then they were getting the tub ready because my room had a tub and as we were waiting for it to warm up, I'm sitting on the ball. I'm having all this bloody show. The nurse asked to check me again before I get in the tub. Unknowingly, I had been 5 centimeters when we arrived. I was 7 now when we got in the tub an hour later. I get in the tub and I wouldn't say it provided me any relief. Honestly, I was so in my head and not necessarily in pain, just so mentally unaware of everything going on, in labor land, but also very overwhelmed by the intensity of it. I told Katrina, “George Washington could have been sitting in the corner watching me labor. I would not have known.” I barely opened my eyes. I had a nurse who was there sitting with us because I had to have a one-on-one nurse for being high-risk and I had to have continuous fetal monitoring. Because I was in the water, she needed to sit there and make sure the monitors didn't move. I couldn't have told you what she looked like, nothing. I didn't speak to her. I was in another world. I think I maybe was in the tub for 30 minutes to an hour. It's probably 9:00 or 10:00. I can't even remember the timeline of it but it wasn't that long of a labor. My water breaks and I start grunting. They're like, “Let's get you out of the tub. Let's get you out of the tub.” I think I was 9 centimeters at this point. We arrived at 7:30. This is probably 10:00 PM or something like that. I'm like, “Okay. I'm just going to lean over the back of this bed and just moo and make noises.” Me being who I am and not super emotional, I'm making jokes about how I sound. I'm like, “You guys, I sound like Dory in Finding Nemo. I'm so embarrassed. Please don't look at my butthole.” I was naked. I'm making all these jokes and coping, I would say pretty well in terms of pain but just very overwhelmed by the intensity of it. They come in and check me and they're like, “Okay, you're complete.” This is at 11:00 PM maybe or 10:30, something like that. But she was like, “You have a little bit of a cervical lip.” It was a provider I hadn't met before at my OB's office but they were like, “We will just let you do your thing. You sound pushy but please don't push because you have a lip. Let's just let him descend.” I could feel his head inside of myself. I could feel his head coming down. I was like, “I want it to be over. I want it to be over.” I'm still in denial of this whole thing this entire time. Are we sure it's not poop? I know there's a baby coming out. Once my water broke, I'm like, “Okay, I guess I'm having a baby.” That was really, truly the first time that I was like, “Okay, this is really happening.”Maybe 30 minutes later, the hospitalist peeks his head in the room and he's like, “Lauren, why don't you try laying on your side?” I tried and it was too painful. I flip over on my back and three pushes later, he comes flopping out. I screamed him out and it was super painful. I was so overwhelmed by how painful it was. I just screamed like a crazy, wild woman. He's on my chest and he's screaming and I'm in all this pain and then she's like, “I've got to give you lidocaine. You tore a little bit. I'm going to stitch you up.” It was just all this pain happening at once, but I was like, “I got my VBAC. That's all that matters. No one touched me and I got my VBAC. I don't care about anything else.” Anyway, it was great. I would not change it for the world because I never had a ton of pain. I never really thought I needed an epidural, but it was a little bit mentally overwhelming. Meagan: Mhmm, sure. Lauren: Anyway, that was my first VBAC. The doctor said, “You pushed so primally. That was the most amazing thing I've ever seen.” The hospitalist was like, “That was incredible to watch. You are a badass.” I was like, “That was such a compliment because I didn't know what I was doing and you're this doctor with all the experience.” Anyway, fast forward to my third pregnancy. This is now the summer of 2023. We decide we're going to have one more baby. I of course had no issues with the VBAC this time because I had a successful TOLAC with my second. I made it to 20 weeks. I had COVID, RSV, and the flu all right around then so they were telling me, “Your baby is measuring totally normal.” I'm like, “Yeah, because I've been sick as a dog for 6 weeks.” I'm like, “Maybe I'm going to get this newborn who is a normal size,” because my son was born at 38 and 2, the second one, and he was 8 pounds, 3 ounces. I had told my doctor 8 pounds, 2 ounces. I was one ounce off. I was like, “Maybe I'll get this little peanut baby and it's going to be so great. I'll finally have a newborn who fits in a diaper for more than two days.” Then I hit 33 weeks and I got huge. I just exploded inside. I go to my OB and I'm like, “I don't feel good. I'm too big. This baby is too big. Something is wrong.” She's like, “No, Lauren. I really just think you make big babies and he just went through a growth spurt. Let's not worry. I'm not going to have you do an ultrasound or anything like that. If he continues to measure 2-3 weeks ahead,” because I was measuring 36 weeks at 33 weeks, “then we can talk about it, but I don't want to worry about it.” I was like, “Okay.” I was having all of this round ligament pain more than I had with my others and prodromal labor was so painful. I remember telling Katrina who I hired again, “I feel like something is wrong with my muscles. I just am so uncomfortable. But I don't want to make any rash decisions based on it. I might get an epidural if this keeps up because this doesn't feel normal. “She was like, “Okay, whatever works.” So I get to my 38-week appointment and I'm thinking, I'm going to have this baby at 38 weeks just like I had my second baby. I had everything ready. Everything was good to go at my house and then day by day, it ticks on. Baby is not coming. Baby is not coming. I was due April 6th. This was just this year, 2024. I get to 38 weeks. I tell my doctor, “Just strip my membranes. I don't even care.” She was like, “Okay, I guess if that's what you want.” She did. Nothing happened. 39 weeks rolls around. She strips my membranes again. Nothing really happens and then the night of Easter, I had this strange experience where I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this contraction that wouldn't end. I couldn't feel the baby move and it freaked me out. I did everything I could to get him to move. I was in the shower. I was eating. I was drinking and doing all of these things. Finally, I called Katrina at 2:00 in the morning. I'm like, “My baby's dead. I'm 100% sure he's gone. What do I do?” She's like, “Lauren, just relax. Lie on your side and drink something sweet.” We were ready to go to the hospital. I remember we had a stethoscope. I got the stethoscope and I put it right where I knew his heartbeat was and I heard a heartbeat. I burst into tears. It was the first time I've ever cried with any of my babies even being put on my chest. I just felt this relief because I had so much anxiety about him with my size being so big and the pain I was having. I was like, “I just want this baby out.” I never really felt that way, but it was this desperate anxiety. A couple of days passed and I'm now in week 39. I'm like, “My uterus is silent like a little church mouse. She's not doing a thing. She's not cramping. She's not contracting. No discharge, nothing.” I'm like, “This baby is never going to come.” I tell my doctor at my 39-week appointment, “If this baby hasn't come by Friday, I'm back here and I want another membrane sweep.” I felt kind of crazy because I'm like, “This is technically an induction, like a natural and I'm intervening.” Me who never wanted anyone to touch me and now I'm like, “Please touch me and pull this baby out of my body.” She goes to check me and she's like, “Lauren, I think he's coming tonight. Your body contracted around my hand when I tried to sweep you. I just wouldn't be surprised. Don't worry.” I'm like, “Okay, well you're breaking my water on Monday.” I was 3 or 4 centimeters dilated and I'm like, “We're waiting until Monday but I want you to break my water because I'm over it.” She's like, “That's a good idea. Let's threaten this baby and he'll come right out.” This was early in the morning on Friday, the 5th. Anyway, I had all of this anxiety and I just felt like he needed to come out. I couldn't get any peace until I knew he was alive and happy and healthy and on my chest. Friday afternoon, I felt crampy just a little bit the whole day and then at 4:30 PM, I feel this gush and I'm like, “Okay. Is that my water or is it my pee?” because his head felt like it was on my bladder. I didn't say anything to anyone. Then 6:00 rolls around. I text Katrina. I'm like, “Listen, I felt a little gush and I keep feeling it. I put a pad on and it doesn't seem to be urine. I'm not really sure what's happening. I'm just going to do some Miles Circuit and I'll update you.”At 7:30, I'm cleaning my kitchen and all of a sudden, I'm hit with an active labor contraction. I'm like, “Not again. I want labor to start normally so I know what's happening.” No. Baby's like, “I'm ready.” At 7:30, I tell her, “Okay, I'm feeling contractions. I'm getting in the shower to see if it will stop. It might be prodromal. Let's give it an hour. I'm going to text you, but they are 2.5 minutes apart.” She's like, “I'm at dinner. I'm getting boxes. Just let me know.” I was like, “Okay. It might stop though so I wouldn't worry about it.” No, it did not stop. She gets to my house at 9:00 and my car is already running. I'm like, “We're going.” I am mooing through these contractions. I'm going to pop this baby out right now. I had thankfully put some chux pads in the back of my car. I'm on all fours in the back of my car. Mind you, we have to drive an hour to the hospital. I peed all over the chux pad. I just was like, “He's on my bladder. He's on my bladder.” It was so painful and I couldn't control anything. I'm like, “Is this water? Is this pee? I don't even know what's happening.” We get to the hospital. He did not come in the car, thank God, but we did have to go to the ER again and the ER was taking forever. It took a half hour to get me up to labor and delivery as I'm actively mooing in front of the hospital. I was like, “I'm not going in,” because there was a little girl sitting in the waiting room and some convict sitting with a police officer. I'm like, “I'm not having my labor in front of these people!” Even the police officer came out and he was like, “I don't understand what is taking so long. You are clearly about to have this baby. I will bust open these doors for you and walk you up to L&D myself if that's what it takes.” Finally, they got me up there. I arrived. I told Katrina and my husband, “You guys, I'm getting an epidural.” I said, “I have had so much anxiety and so much pain. This does not feel like my previous labor. This feels like I'm suffering.” I said, “I just want to smile. I just want to smile. I want to smile this baby out.” We get up there. I'm 8 centimters dilated. This was the part of the story that I feel like it comes back to advocating for myself. I go in there and I'm like, “I don't care what you need from me. I just need the epidural and stat.” The nurses are scrambling and this doctor walks in. I am on all fours on the bed just staring at the ground, actively transitioning. I see this doctor walk in. I see his feet and he had his shoelaces untied. Immediately, I'm just like, “No. It's a no.” I don't know why. I just was like, “Your shoes are dirty and they are untied. You seem like a hot mess. I'm already a hot mess. I want someone to come in and just be like clean-cut and normal.” He starts asking me all these questions. He's asking me my whole health history, everything about my grandparents, my parents, all of this stuff. I'm in transition then he goes, “You're aware of the risk of TOLAC, right?” I said, “Yes.” He goes, “That your uterus could burst wide open?” I literally saw red. I'm in a contraction and I just screamed like a wild lady. I was like, “Get out.” I wanted to add on some expletives and tell him to get out of the room. I just said, “Get food.” He was like, “I'm  just saying.” He ended up leaving and my nurse peeks her head under. I look over and I see this nurse peeking her head right into my face and it's the same nurse who was there with my first VBAC. She goes, “You don't have to accept care from him.” She goes, “Your doctor is actually the backup on-call doctor tonight.” She goes, “If you refuse care, we can call her and she can come in.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is a miracle.” We get the epidural. I'm like, “We've got to slow this thing down. I don't want to have this baby and have this crazy man who I cannot stand anywhere near my body parts, anywhere in this room.” We get the epidural and everything slowed down. I labored down. My doctor ended up coming in and she checked me. She was like, “Your bag is bulging. It feels like rubber. It's so thick.” She was like, “I think that's why he's not coming out.” We got to the hospital at 9:30-9:45. By the time we got in the room, 11:00 by the time I got the epidural, and the anesthesiologist was like, “You're going to have this baby in 30 minutes. I'm certain of it.” To slow it down, I'm closing my legs and doing all of these things to slow it down.My doctor comes in. She breaks my water and fluid goes everywhere. It floods the floor. She goes, “I don't remember any time I've ever seen this much water come out of someone without polyhydramnios. Maybe you had it. I don't know but this is an insane amount of water.” She breaks my water and then my epidural was a pretty low dose because he thought I was having the baby in 30 minutes. It's now 2:30 in the morning and I haven't had the baby yet. I'm getting up on my knees. I'm leaning over the back of the bed and I feel him descending. Then my doctor comes in an hour later and she's like, “Let's get this baby out.” It was 3:30 in the morning and she's like, “Let's go.” She feels me. She's like, “You're complete. I feel his head right here. You just need to push and you can't feel that his head is right here.” So I just get on my back, in lithotomy with the freaking stirrups like I said I would never do with the epidural I said I would never get and I pushed him out in three pushes. He was 9 pounds, 7 ounces. I am so glad I got that epidural. No regrets there because that's a really freaking huge baby. His head was in the 100th percentile or something like gigantic. I tore a little bit again, but I feel like the tradeoff was this peaceful, happy birth. I was making jokes. I had this nurse that I loved and knew. I had my doctor I loved and knew. I had Katrina and I had my husband who were the only people in the room and we laughed our way into this birth. I laughed my baby out basically. I was making jokes the whole time and I just had this peaceful experience. I told my husband, “I know I railed on the epidural my whole pregnancy and I said I would never get it,” but it's a tool ultimately. It's a tool. If you use it wisely, I was very far along. I said, “I don't think it's going to stop my labor.” I felt really confident in my decision. I didn't feel like anything was pushed on me. I made the decision. I'm happy I did it that way. Would I do it again that way? I don't know. I think with every birth, you should be open-minded to the possibilities and your needs. I hear so many stories where women are like, “And then I got the epidural. I had to.” I'm like, “It's okay. Own that decision. You're no worse off for getting it and it doesn't make you any less of a mom or any less of a good person for getting it. It's okay to not feel every single pain of labor if it's overclouding your ability to be in the moment.” Meagan: Yeah.Lauren: So anyway, that was my second VBAC story. Honestly, it was so redemptive because there was no trauma from the pain of having this wild, chaotic, primal birth. It was just peaceful and happy with all of the people. If I could have dreamt up a list of people who could have been with me, that's who it would have been. Meagan: Good. Oh, I love that you pointed that out. Well, I am so happy for you. Congrats again, 11 days ago and right now I want to thank you again so much for sharing your story. Lauren: Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Welcome back to the Healthful Woman Podcast! In this mailbag episode, Dr. Fox answers your questions regarding the transverse positioning of the baby and ECV procedures, taking a hot bath during pregnancy, sulcal tearing complications, if there is a correlation between D&C and preterm birth and more.

Episode 219 of the EYE ON SCI-FI podcast introduces 'Cydonia,' a French sci-fi animated short film by ECV. Set in a post-apocalyptic future, it depicts humanity's struggle and a mysterious portal offering salvation. The traditionally animated film stands out for its striking visuals and haunting scenes.Subscribe to the podcast via RSS, Apple Podcasts, Pocket Casts or Amazon Music.To subscribe to the newsletter, explore the podcast archive, support the podcast, and more, visit EYE ON SCI-FI Link Tree.Episode Link:Watch Cydonia on YouTube

Lleva unos meses rondándonos la teoría de los tres estados. Como cuando se cuenta en el cole la Edad Media, la teoría explica que hay tres sociedades superpuestas: gente que maneja lana para comprar a mucha otra gente y aún le sobra; gente que es comprada y con esfuerzo puede comprar a alguna otra de vez en cuando; y gente que es comprada y solo le queda apretar los dientes pa tirar palante. Esta imagen contiene muchas incógnitas. En el programa con Emmanuel Rodríguez a propósito de su libro sobre la clase media (https://www.ivoox.com/3x17-en-este-pais-todo-mundo-es-audios-mp3_rf_87316776_1.html) nos preguntábamos ¿ cómo es posible que ese segundo estado identifique al 60% de la población y a casi a la totalidad de la esfera política? Cuando Anna Pacheco retoma el problema de la clase en el trabajo contemporáneo en “Estuve aquí y me acordé de vosotros” (Anagrama, 2024), libro al que dedicamos este último programa de la temporada, se pregunta cómo esas personas -casi clase media, media media, media baja, media bajita, casi pobres- que dispensan sus servicios en la hotelería de lujo no desarrollan, al servicio de la clase alta global, las formas más depuradas de rencor. La imagen de los tres estados devuelve también la incógnita de las alianzas ¿con qué clase es más probable el acuerdo estratégico? ¿con aquella a la que hay más posibilidad de volver o caer o con aquella a la que se aspira a llegar? En el contexto español el turismo -en otros lugares una actividad excepcional y residual en el ámbito productivo, aquí eje vertebrador del modelo de país- resulta ser bien explicativa del estado de las cosas. En ella se refleja con precisión la teoría de los tres estados: el 33,1% que no puede irse de vacaciones al menos una semana (ECV 2023), el 60% que trabaja aspirando a la vida-vacaciones y el 7% que se forra con todo esto. El problema de esta imagen, icono del clasemedismo español, es cómo se mueve. El turismo ha vivido la transición desde un sector servicios-industrial que coquetea con las grandes constructoras y financieras a un sector devorado, al igual que el conjunto de la producción social, por estas últimas. De hecho, la conflictividad social creciente, como hemos visto en las últimas manifestaciones contra la turistificación de nuestras ciudades y territorios, uno de los movimientos populares más vivos hoy, no estalla solo por la captura territorial y laboral del sector clásico ho(s)telero, sino por el giro rentista que incorpora la vivienda turística y agota todas las formas de vida urbana e insular. Si situamos el turismo en esta esfera productiva y sistémica, más que en una esfera de gustos, consumos y estilos de vida, el marco de críticas y de alternativas se desplaza también ¿es lo mismo un sector turístico que el otro?, al igual que cabe preguntarse ¿es lo mismo la explotación laboral que la expropiación rentista?. ¿Cabe alguna forma de nuevo pacto social por el turismo, que incluya su desmercantilización, decrecimiento y profesionalización? ¿Será posible otro turismo mientras sea imposible otro trabajo? Nos vemos en septiembre y, mientras tanto, en las piscinas. Un abrazo.

Episode #348 Mobility access in Walt Disney World with Judy Ludwig. How do you get around when you have trouble getting around. Judy has been using a ECV for many years at the parks and she shares her years of experience with you this week on the show. From resorts to rides to transportation, to just plan getting around. www.thedisneycrush.com thedisneycrush@gmail.com www.patron.com/thedisneycrush  

Upon arriving at the hospital during her first labor, Sami was told that her baby's heart rate wasn't stable, Pitocin was necessary, and a C-section was most likely going to be the safest mode of delivery. After laboring for a while, she was wheeled to the OR but the anesthesiologist was running behind schedule. Sami was checked and discovered she was complete! She pushed like her life depended on it and with the assistance of a vacuum and forceps, was able to vaginally deliver her baby in the OR. Sami was thankful to have had a vaginal delivery, but it wasn't the empowering experience she hoped for and she knew she wanted something different the next time around. But when her second baby flipped breech during labor, Sami unexpectedly consented to a Cesarean. During her third pregnancy, Sami did everything in her power to set herself up for a VBAC. She found out her baby was breech and exhausted all options to try to flip her. A few weeks after a successful ECV, Sami had a precipitous VBAC, pushing her baby out within one hour of arriving at the hospital!Sami's Fitness AccountHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 01:23 Review of the Week04:26 Sami's first pregnancy06:41 A vaginal birth in the OR07:55 Second pregnancy and switching providers11:00 Flipping breech during labor13:10 Sami's C-section and feeling invalidated16:50 Third pregnancy24:19 A successful ECV29:38 Going into labor32:38 Pushing her baby out within one hour of arriving at the hospitalMeagan: Hey, hey everybody. We have another VBAC story for you today from our friend, Sami. She is actually local to me here in Utah. Hi, how are you?Sami: Hi, I'm good. I'm so excited to be here. Meagan: So excited to share these stories. I was going over your story and it's just crazy to think how things can twist and turn and the unexpected can happen. I love that about stories sometimes and then I don't love that it happens but I also love the uniqueness of that. Does that make sense? Sami: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like literally and figuratively, my babies twist and turns happen. Meagan: Yes. It's important to know that going into birth even though we are planning one way, sometimes twists and turns can happen and then it's up to us to figure out how to navigate through that space and it's not always easy. It's okay to not always have it be easy and then sometimes it is easy. That's another thing I wanted to talk about too is pointing out that to some, a twist and a turn might be no big deal to someone and then to some, it rocks their world. We are all in different spaces here and you definitely like you said both figuratively and actually have some twists and turns. 01:23 Review of the WeekMeagan: We're going to share her story in just a minute but of course, we do have a Review of the Week and I just wanted to quickly share it. This is by– okay, I'm probably going to butcher this. It is mitaywa. I'm so sorry if you are listening and you are like, You are telling this so wrong. It says, “I hope this plays over the speaker in every OB/GYN office.” I love that. That's a cool subject. It says, “I cannot even begin to describe what encouragement these podcasts have been for me. I have completely binged on these the past few weeks and they have grown my confidence for my up-and-coming VBAC baby. I cannot stop sharing everything I'm learning and even help encourage first-time moms to educate themselves on how to avoid a Cesarean in the first place. Thank you so much for this no B.S., truth-declaring and empowering platform that I know has encouraged so many more than just myself. Keep being amazing. I can't wait to share our story in just a few short months. All of my love.” Aw, that's such a great review. I love that so much. I hope that you got your VBAC and that all went well. I'm so excited to hear that this podcast is doing exactly what we intended it to do– empower, educate, inform, and inspire people to know their options for birth after a Cesarean and like you said, how to avoid a Cesarean in the first place. 04:26 Sami's first pregnancyMeagan: Okay, cute Sami. I'm excited to hear these stories. Thank you for joining us today. Sami: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's a really cool full-circle moment to be here after binging on the podcast for months and months and months so I'm excited to be here. Meagan: All right, well every birth story starts with baby number one, and your first baby actually wasn't a C-section, right?Sami: Yeah, with my first baby, I got pregnant in 2017 and had him in 2018. I feel like as so many other people on the podcast, I felt like I was pretty informed going into the birth. I mean, I read two books. To me, I'm like, I am so informed. I took a HypnoBirthing class but I had a provider who had just been my OB/GYN for a long time so I decided to stay with her. Even though I didn't have a C-section with that first delivery and pregnancy, it definitely wasn't what I was hoping to get out of it. I went to 40 weeks and thought that I would have my baby right then and there. I didn't have a doula. I hadn't talked to a lot of people but I was planning on going unmedicated in my delivery and then the days kept going on. I got to 40 and 5 and finally started to go into labor. I was really excited because my OB had scheduled an induction for me I think the next day actually. I got to the hospital and everything changed. We got there. We were excited and fresh-faced. We were having our baby today. The minute we got there, they were picking up a lot of heart decels. They didn't feel like the baby's heart rate was doing well. They told me that I needed to get on Pitocin immediately and that I would be really lucky to not have a C-section so my hopes for an unmedicated delivery went out the window immediately. My OB came in and told me, “I really do think that a C-section is going to be the best course of action for us but let's give you a couple of hours and see how things do with Pitocin, get you an epidural just in case,” and after a few hours, came in and said, “I really think we need to go to the OR right now. We need to get your baby out for his safety.” 06:41 A vaginal birth in the ORSami: We scrubbed up, my husband and I. She took us back to the OR. I was a wreck. I was crying and just so upset because no one had prepared me for that. In my HypnoBirthing class, all of the stories that were shared were really positive. We didn't really talk about what would happen in this type of situation. Like I said, I didn't have a doula. We got to the OR and the anesthesiologist was actually running behind. He was doing another C-section and they didn't have another one on call I guess. She was like, “You're dilated to a 10 so if you can get this baby out right now, I'll let you push and try.” So I pushed like my life depended on it trying to get this baby out. He was sunny-side up so she did end up using forceps and a vacuum. We got him out in that timeframe. It was so cool honestly after having this experience that felt really scary and just not what I was wanting, I was riding the high of my life to have still been able to deliver him. So I didn't get my unmedicated delivery, but I was just really happy to have him there with me. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. 07:55 Second pregnancy and switching providersSami: So fast forward to my second pregnancy, I got pregnant in 2019 and had him during the pandemic in 2020. I decided to switch providers just because I felt like after going through that experience with her, it wasn't a bad experience, it just wasn't what I was wanting. To get there and have her immediately pushing a C-section– Meagan: That's kind of unique. Did she ever tell you exactly? It was just the heart rate? “You're heart rate is wonky. Let's put you on Pitocin.” Those two things often don't match. And then it's like, “Oh, you'll probably end up there anyway but we'll let you keep going.”Sami: It was so bizarre. Looking back at it for me, I do feel like there were signs that she just wasn't going to be a supportive provider of an unmedicated delivery all along. I told her I didn't want to have an epidural and she said, “Well, good luck. You'll probably change your mind, but I support you doing whatever you want to do.” We found out after he was delivered that the cord was wrapped around his neck twice. That was what was causing the decels to happen, but that was what was hard for us to understand too. We were like, “If it's emergent, why aren't we being taken back right now?” Yeah. It just felt like she wanted to get the baby out. I was over 40 weeks. I felt like even though I had a great experience postpartum and I was fine, I couldn't trust her anymore. I didn't feel like she was a safe person or someone who would honor my wishes during birth. Meagan: Right. Sami: I had heard of a doctor locally. A few of my friends had just raved about him. He is pretty popular in my neighborhood. I feel like a lot of different people go to him, but it's Dr. Thackeray and INC. Meagan: Oh yeah. Sami: Yeah, so I switched over to him for that second pregnancy and immediately just really liked him. He was warm. He took a lot of time talking over everything, getting to know us in a way that most OBs don't in the hospital setting and I let go of my hopes of having an unmedicated delivery. It just felt like with my first birth and postpartum, everything that could have happened did happen. I had this plan. I had the birth plan. I wanted to have that unmedicated labor and it all went out the window the minute that we got there. I felt like, What's the point in even trying to go unmedicated? There are so many unexpected things that can come up in birth. I went forward with that pregnancy. It was a pretty normal pregnancy. Honestly, I felt great. I'm one of those weird people who enjoys being pregnant. I just soaked up the time with my oldest son. We were having another boy, but when the pandemic really started to get serious, we were terrified. We were being told every week that things were changing. You could have people come with you and support you. You couldn't. My birth partner may not be able to be there with me. We were a little nervous about that. 11:00 Flipping breech during laborSami: I got to 40 weeks exactly and went into labor again. I was so excited. It's really funny because my husband and I took pictures outside of the hospital. We were both really excited to hopefully have a more normal experience of being able to deliver in the delivery room without all of those interventions. We got checked into the hospital. They checked the baby's position and they told me that he was head-down. Then shortly after that, my water actually broke. They called my OB to come in and just check on how things were progressing. When he came in, he checked me and he was like, “I don't think that I'm feeling the baby's head. I think I'm feeling the baby's bum.”They did an ultrasound. Meagan: So breech? Sami: He was breech but he wasn't even just complete breech. Meagan: Like sideways? Sami: Yeah. He was transverse. It brought up a lot of anxiety and emotions from that first delivery. I'm like, “No. I avoided a C-section. I really don't want to go back to the OR. I don't want to have forceps. I don't want to have all of these things happen.” They tried to perform an ECV. They actually tried for 45 minutes to get him to flip but because– Meagan: Which is also impressive just to say for a provider to do that during labor. That's impressive. Sami: Yeah, he was. He brought in one of his partners. I could tell that they were trying really, really hard but he would not budge. They told us that because my water had broken, it was just likely that there wasn't enough fluid in there to get him to flip back. Meagan: Rotate. Sami: Yeah. We don't know at this point. The nurses who checked us in told me that he was head down, but we don't know if he flipped when my water broke or if he had been sitting breech for a long time. In any case, he wasn't flipping. My husband and I asked for some time just to think about our options, but his foot became prolapsed and they told us, “This is an emergent situation. We need to get him out right now. If the cord prolapses, it could be pretty risky.” 13:10 Sami's C-section and feeling invalidatedSami: They rolled us back to the OR. It was kind of like Dejavu from my first delivery. I'm sobbing. I'm like, Oh, I don't want to have a C-section. I've got a baby at home to think about this time around. I told him I'd be back in two days. Just a lot of emotions were brought up. They took us to the OR and kept having to give me medication after medication. They lay you down obviously. So many people listening to this story are going to be able to relate to what it's like in there, but it's freezing cold. They laid me down and strapped me onto the bed. I was shaking. I felt like I was going to vomit. They just kept giving me all of these medications. They finally started to perform the C-section and I just had tears rolling down my face. The anesthesiologist bent down and was like, “Don't worry. My wife had to have C-sections with all of our babies and she's fine.” It was just the weirdest situation. Meagan: Yeah, probably out of the goodness of his heart of, “You're going to be okay. My wife was okay,” but it's not really what you say to someone in that moment either. Sami: Yeah. It just felt kind of invalidating that I was having a hard moment. Meagan: Yeah.Sami: Ultimately, they got my son out. They took him and cleaned him off and when they brought him over to me, I can barely remember what it was like but I couldn't hold him. I was shaking. It was a really hard moment to not be able to have that immediate connection with him. We got back to the recovery room and things went fine for the most part. I did have a pretty bad hemorrhage and they kept having to come in. They were going to open me back up at one point, but all in all, it was fine. My son was healthy and I was really grateful for that. I think the hardest part for me was just like I said with the anesthesiologist just feeling really invalidated in how hard the situation was. I wanted to get back to see my son. I'm pretty into fitness and health like I talked about and hadn't really wanted to have this really long recovery from all of that. People just kept saying, “Well, your baby is healthy. That's what matters. At least your baby is healthy.” I think that's a really hard thing sometimes for moms to hear because as the mom of the baby, I want them to be healthy more than anyone. Meagan: It's a no-duh situation. Sami: Yeah, that's my number one goal. Funny enough, I found The VBAC Link in the hospital while I was lying in my hospital bed those three days just feeding him and spending time with my baby and I started listening to the podcast then. I just thought, If I ever go down this road again and have another baby, I really want to have a different experience from these first two deliveries. I want to be able to hold my baby the minute that they are born, not be so drugged up that I'm having to come out of being groggy and things. To make a really long story a little bit shorter, my postpartum situation with my son– the recovery was okay but it was really hard. It brought up a lot of postpartum anxiety for me, a lot of different things with the pandemic. We weren't able to have visitors, not be able to be outside or move around the way I wanted to immediately. The podcast really helped me get through a lot of that. 16:50 Third pregnancySami: Fast forward to 2023 and I got pregnant for a third time, I was just excited to hopefully do things differently this go-around. We had two boys and found out that we were expecting a girl. I'm a pretty type-A person so I devoured all of the information that I could about VBAC and realized that I really hadn't known that much going into my first birth. I thought that HypnoBirthing class was enough and it really wasn't. I hired a doula who was local here to me in Salt Lake. She is amazing. Her name is Jamie Kowalk. A friend had referred her to me. I just got to work on a lot of different things. I did chiropractic. I worked with a pelvic floor PT. I actually worked with a therapist too to go through some of the postpartum anxiety that I had experienced after the second time around and hopefully have someone in my corner in case I had that going on again. But once we found out that we were pregnant, I did consider switching providers again. I just thought, Can I go through another delivery with the provider who did my C-section? I did interview a couple of other providers. We met with a midwife pretty early on and had a weird experience. I don't blame her. I don't fault her or anything, but she was the first person to give me an ultrasound when I was pregnant and she had thought that we were having twins so she gave me the ultrasound and said, “You know, I'm kind of seeing two babies here. I don't see two heartbeats. I think it's likely that you lost a baby fairly early.” When we went to get an ultrasound after that that she recommended, the tech was like, “That's not two babies. That is a yolk sac. This is just the baby. This is the yolk sac. You're only pregnant with one.” Yeah. It was a surprising experience but what I realized from that was that I had wanted to call my old OB the whole time and just verify everything that she was saying with him. I just didn't think that I could fully trust her because I already had a pretty strong relationship developed with him. I did choose to stay with my same provider. I had some friends who had known him and shared stories of him doing VBACs that they had heard of. I talked to him about it. The one thing that was kind of hard was that he was really VBAC-supportive when I shared my plans to hopefully have a VBAC, but he wasn't a huge cheerleader. He wasn't like, “I'm going to get you your VBAC. We're going to go in and do this.” It was really realistic. “We'll try to do everything that we can and see how it goes.” Meagan: Right. Sami: I appreciated that ultimately. I had a fairly normal beginning part of my pregnancy. I found out we were expecting a girl which was shocking to us after having two boys and then I got to the gestational diabetes screen which was something I had never worried about. Like I said, I'm pretty involved in health and fitness at a high level. I watch my diet really closely. I failed the screening pretty badly, like pretty terribly. Sami: I ended up going on to pass the 3-hour test which was good but after that, I really felt pretty excited about the VBAC. I felt this hope that I could do it. I feel like meeting with my doula was really powerful because we went through not only my ideal situation and scenario of what would happen but also what things could look like if I did have to have another C-section. I think that was one of my favorite parts of the process of working with her was just planning with her when there weren't emotions at stake in it and not trying to make decisions in the heat of the moment in labor but making them far ahead of time. Meagan: Yes. It's so important. Sami: Yeah, it's a total game-changer. But then we got to about 36 weeks and I had been doing, when I say all of the things, I really had been doing everything in my power to hope for an optimal positioning with the baby. Like I said, the chiropractor, the Spinning Babies, and everything, but I asked my provider for an ultrasound that they don't usually give at 36 weeks unless there is some type of indication that it's necessary. He had been feeling the baby externally and thought that she was head down, but I just didn't want to go into the delivery with any unknowns or surprises. We got that ultrasound and went in. The minute that the tech touched my stomach, they were like, “This is a really breech baby. This baby is completely breech.” Yeah. That brought up a lot of emotion for me from my previous deliveries like, What am I going to do? We haven't had a baby in a good position yet. I've already been doing all of the things to hope to get her in an optimal position. When I met with the nurse right outside the room, she was like, “Well, it's fine. You can always have a C-section. It's not a big deal. We just did a couple today.” Meagan: You're like, “Again, not what I'm wanting though.” Sami: A lot of my hopes and dreams and everything went out the window. From there, I got to work on all of the things that I could do to get baby to flip. I was reading forums. I was Googling. It was honestly so exhausting. I look back on that time and for anyone else who has had a breech baby and tried to get them to turn, it is an emotional rollercoaster. Meagan: Oh yeah. Sami: Yeah. We did acupuncture. I did moxibustion. I did the Spinning Babies “Flip a Breech Baby.” It is so funny, but I downloaded this hypnosis track to try to get your baby to flip. I was doing hypnosis. I went to the pool and I attempted to do handstands in the pool at 37 weeks pregnant. I was not successful. How anyone can do that, I have no idea. But I was lying upside down on an ironing board trying to encourage her to flip. I put ice packs on the top of my stomach. It was completely exhausting. In hindsight, I wouldn't change the effort that I put into hoping to get her to move, but it's hard to be in that space where you are so far along pregnant and then trying to do that and being unsuccessful. Meagan: It's consuming. It consumes you because you are like, I want this so bad. It's sort of within our control, but a lot of it is out of our control. Sami: Totally, yeah. Yeah. I actually ended up posting in the Facebook group and just asked if anyone had recommendations local to me for a provider who would consider delivering a breech baby. Someone recommended Dr. Silver at the University of Utah. We actually did meet with him when I was 38 weeks pregnant. That may be wrong. It may have been 37. 24:19 A successful ECVSami: We went and met with him. He told me, “This baby is breech and if you want to try to deliver her, I'll do it but I think that you should have an ECV first and exhaust all of your options.” I was a little hesitant to go into another ECV after having one that didn't work. I didn't have high hopes. I went and met with Dr. Thackery and he did perform an ECV. I didn't use an epidural or any medications but she actually flipped really easily. Meagan: Good. Sami: It was super quick. Yeah. It was really cool. I think something that I didn't share, but leading up to that, I was working with my therapist a lot just on my mindset. I was pretty devastated when I found out that she was breech. I had to come to terms with the fact before we even went into the ECV or met with Dr. Silver or any of these things that I'm trying to control all of these different variables. I've done this with all of my births and it hasn't really gone the way that I wanted to. With my first baby, I thought it was going to be fine to do unmedicated. My second baby, I was like, I don't care what we do as long as I don't have a C-section, then it ended in a C-section. Then to have her be breech, I was exhausted from all of those things that I was doing, but I just had to realize that, I can show up and I can try to flip this baby on my own and I can try to get an ECV and I can try to hypnotize myself all day, but if that's not what's best for her and if that's not in the cards, there is a level that is outside of your control when it comes to birth. I feel like that was one of my biggest lessons. When I was lying there as he was performing the ECV, I was just talking to myself and visualizing her flipping but I was talking to her and just saying, If there is a reason why you can't flip, if this is not going to be safe for you or if this is not what's best for you, that's okay. I'm going to do whatever you need me to do in order for you to get here healthy. It was only an ECV but that was actually a really powerful moment for me in my third pregnancy in just letting go and letting the outcome be whatever it was going to be. Meagan: Yeah. Sami: She did flip like I said then after that, I was doing deep squats every day. Meagan: Get that baby engaged. Sami: Yes. Get her engaged in my pelvis. I had a few more appointments with my provider and every time would ask him to do a scan just because I didn't believe that she would stay head down, but she did. I felt like we had overcome our last hurdle. I was utilizing HypnoBirthing tracks again. I don't think I mentioned it, but I did want to try to go for an unmedicated this go-around just because I found that every time I would get the epidural or get Pitocin or get anything, that's when everything would go wrong. I was trying to prepare for all of that. We found out that our provider was going to be out of town a few days after my due date. He got asked to go on a last-minute family vacation and said yes. A lot of the other providers in his office are VBAC-supportive, but I didn't really feel comfortable with anyone else being the one to deliver my baby. I had to just again let go. I'm like, Okay. We've almost had gestational diabetes. You've been breech. We did the ECV. Now if we can just deliver this baby, it will hopefully all go well. Yeah, I just kept doing those things the last couple of weeks of pregnancy and on the Fourth of July, I started to go into labor. I was so excited. I started to feel those familiar contraction pains and didn't tell anyone. We went to a barbecue with some friends. I didn't say anything and then I decided to stay up all night on the Fourth of July because after you've had two babies, who would stay up when they are in labor? I'm like, what was I even thinking? But I stayed up all night watching TV and timing my contractions, getting excited. I didn't want to wake my husband up or anything. But in the morning, they kind of fizzled out. There wasn't a lot happening. I had an appointment with my doctor later that day. I should say at that point, I was 39 weeks and 3 days, 39 and 4. I went to that appointment. My husband ended up driving me and we brought our two kids with us because we didn't have any sitters lined up at that point. He said, “I think that things are going to pick up in the next day or so. I think that you're going to have this baby.” We were going to do a membrane sweep that day. That was something I felt comfortable doing but we ended up not doing it. We drove back home because we live about 45 minutes from the hospital that we were delivering at. I decided to make dinner and give my youngest a bath. By the time I had that bath water halfway filled, I couldn't even do it. I was just laying on the floor trying to breathe through contractions, but not able to do anything. 29:38 Going into laborSami: I'm yelling at my husband in between, “Please come upstairs. Give Harvey a bath.” We had not packed anything. I feel like we were the worst third-time parents. We were not ready to go. I think there was so much pressure getting her ready to flip and trying to prepare for all of these other things that I think it would almost jinx it to be super ready for the delivery. We were throwing things into a bag. We had my mom come over because she was going to watch our two boys while we went to the hospital. We just turned around and essentially went back. It was really funny because when we went to go get checked in, they brought us back to a room. I was like, “Are you guys going to check me? Are you going to triage me?” They were like, “No, you seem pretty serious. We're just going to admit you and you can stay.” Meagan: Awesome. Sami: Yeah. We were really excited about that. Again, I wanted to be really excited like I was in my second birth with taking pictures and everything. I have a friend who uses the term “cautious optimism”. I think about that a lot. I was optimistic but also cautious because of everything that had happened in those prior experiences. We did get checked in and we called our doula who decided to come in and meet us, but we didn't get a nurse for 10-15 minutes. I felt like my contractions were really picking up. I remember I opened the door and was looking around like, This hospital is dead. Where are all of the nurses? Why is no one coming to do anything?She finally showed up and it was pretty clear. My doula got there about that same time that our nurse was not super unmedicated supportive. She also didn't seem super VBAC supportive. The minute that Jamie walked in, I was just like, Okay. Now I can breathe. I have someone here who can advocate for us and be an ear to bounce things off of. She started to check me in and go through all of the paperwork, the insurance stuff, and I remember just being on the birth ball. We were trying a couple of different things because I felt like my contractions were pretty strong. Probably 15-20 minutes after Jamie had gotten there and our nurse had come in, I just started screaming, “I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't do this,” at the top of my lungs. I remember it feeling almost like an out-of-body experience. I didn't feel like I was screaming anything. I didn't feel like I was saying anything, but there were just words coming out of me. My nurse said, “I think that we need to check you.” 32:38 Pushing her baby out within one hour of arriving at the hospitalSami: They checked me and I was complete. Meagan: Whew!Sami: Yeah, it was wild. We had not been there long. They started to get everything ready to go and I thought from doing HypnoBirthing and preparing and hypnosis and meditation and all of these different things that I would be able to be calm and present and that was not my experience at all. For a long time, I should say afterward, I felt embarrassed. You hear these stories or you watch Christian HypnoBirthing in these different cities of these people smiling and singing and they are quiet as they are having their babies. That was not me. Now I can look back on that and I'm like, That's okay. I was just loud. I was roaring through birth. It all was happening so fast. I felt really comfortable being on all fours. I was in that position trying to start to push, but when my doctor came in, they actually did have me flip to lying on my back which is something looking back I wish that that wouldn't have happened, but yeah. I flipped over and probably had her within 20 more minutes. When we look at the timeframe, it was an hour after we got to the hospital that she was born. It was just the most amazing, incredible moment of my life. I think one of the coolest things about the whole thing was after she came out, they just handed her to me and put her on my chest and they were like, “Do you want us to wipe her off? Should we go clean her off? Do you want us to put a diaper on her?” I was like, “No. No one touch her. Just leave her right here.” Yeah. We got to snuggle and cuddle and had that golden hour. It was incredible. Meagan: You got that experience that you were waiting for. That minute where you were like, Okay, I did this. It's all over. I don't have to question anything anymore. That happened. She's here on my chest. I love that. I remember having that feeling. It was just utter joy feeling that human right on top of you. I feel like your photo is exactly that. It just says it all. It says it all exactly how you were feeling. Sami: Yes. Meagan: Just pure joy, amazingness and I am so happy for you. I am happy that even with the curves along the way with this baby, she was able to flip really easily, you were able to go through and show the efforts that you were able to do yourself and truly have this better experience. That is so fast. An hour after getting there and not really having too much going on from being at your visit to going home. That's quick. Sami: Oh, it was shocking. It was really shocking. I feel like for me that was part of the reason why I was so loud. It was hard to believe that it was happening so fast. Meagan: Oh yeah, that transition. Sami: I told my doula, “I want to do the rebozo. I want to try all of these different positions,” and we didn't really get to do very much. Meagan: You didn't need it. You didn't need it either. 35:56 Fitbliss FitnessMeagan: That is so awesome. I know you had mentioned in your summary that you are a personal trainer, right? I would love to talk about that too and all of the things that you did during pregnancy that you would suggest to anyone checking it out. I know physical abilities are always different in pregnancy, but can you tell us about that too? Sami: Yeah, absolutely. I am a personal trainer and a coach with a team here. We actually started local to Salt Lake called Fitbliss Fitness. I'm a coach and I'm also our COO. We coach women in bodybuilding, powerlifting, strength athletes, and macro coaching but primarily I'd say the bulk of my clientele are women who want to get stronger, feel empowered, and change their body composition in a lasting way that is not just a 6-week shred or a quick fix. It's all about creating sustainable habits and then getting strong while you do it. For all three of my pregnancies, a huge part of that has been resistance training at a high level and it's been different throughout each one. I was actually, it's a sport called powerlifting. I don't know if you are familiar with that, but it's essentially bench presses, squats, and deadlifts where you compete to try to get your best number or PR, a personal record. I power lifted throughout that whole entire first pregnancy. Meagan: Nice. Sami: There has been some research to support easier, quicker, labor and delivery when you are familiar with resistance training and that's something that you are doing consistently. The second and third, I think I did go a little bit easier not in the sense that I wasn't still training. I trained 4-5 days a week, some weeks 3 throughout my entire pregnancy but just listened to my body more and not feeling like I had to prove anything or be as strong as maybe I once was. Yeah, so the big things that I focused on during pregnancy was resistance training specifically. Still doing movements like squats and core work that is important for a pregnant person– not things like crunches or obliques or twisting but things like pall-off press, side planks, and there are a lot of different movements that you can still safely do working on transverse abdominal breathing throughout my pregnancy. Then the other thing that I focused on the other side of the coin there was just my nutrition at a high level so a lot of protein intake. Protein is huge. Fiber in my diet throughout, a lot of veggies, fruits, getting in really good sleep each night, sun exposure, and just a lot of different things to take care of your body during a time when it's doing so many different things. It's not only filling you but also your baby and if you are depleted, that's not going to be ideal for either of you. Meagan: Right. Absolutely. I feel like with my first, I kind of started doing the running. I was like, “I'm going to train for a half marathon,” then my provider was like, “Oh, you have round ligament pain. You can just stop. Stay walking.” That was such a bummer to me that I did that and that I stopped. Then I didn't focus on my nutrition at all. I mean, seriously my husband worked 2:00-10:00 and I was eating Chinese food all of the time. My protein was probably not even close to 50g a day. It was really, really, really bad and I think that's another one of the reasons why I feel so passionate about good nutrients and physical activity because yeah, I ended up training and becoming a Barre coach and stuff but really dialing in on that. I really do believe what you were saying that studies have shown. I had a better postpartum. I had a better labor along the way because I was able to focus on that. One, I love that you did it and two, I love that you help people do it and break it down and understand. If someone wanted to check you out, do you do only online? Do you do just in person? What does that look like? Sami: Yeah. I used to be a personal trainer in a gym here locally alongside my clients but now ever since COVID, it's fully online. We have a website that is fitblissfitness.com and I'm on Instagram at sami.g.fit. Yeah, it's really cool. There are a lot of stereotypes out there about what women can and can't do when they're pregnant and oftentimes, it's not the advice that we need to hear. I remember someone in my first pregnancy saying, “Oh, don't move that chair over. You're pregnant. You wouldn't want to hurt yourself.” You can still lift and be strong. You can enjoy foods that you like still too while eating enough protein and giving your body what it needs. Meagan: Getting the right nutrients, yeah. That helps you and your baby as well. Okay, I love it. We will make sure to tag you so everyone can go find you and we'll put it in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and I'm so stinking happy for you. Sami: Thank you. Thanks for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Join your host Sophia as she interviews Jen Santos for her third time on the podcast! This time she shares about her three home birth experiences. They discuss topics including ultrasounds, breech, unknown due date, back labor, torticollis, ECV, postpartum anxiety, PTSD, geriatric pregnancy, and precipitous birth. Dr. Jen Santos, DC, CACCP, is a second generation chiropractor. She received her first adjustment at 45 minutes old by her dad. Dr. Jen graduated from Life Chiropractic College West in 2013, with honors (Cum Laude) and received the prestigious “Clinical Excellence Award.” She is a full time chiropractor and owner of Acorn Chiropractic Club with 3 locations. Additionally, she is an adjunct professor at Life Chiropractic College West where she teaches obstetrics, gynecology, pediatric and prenatal adjusting, and pediatric pathology. Dr. Jen also periodically teaches pediatric and perinatal chiropractic seminars to students and chiropractors in her offices. And also teaches for the International Chiropractic Pediatric Association. Contact: Email: DrJen@AcornChiropracticClub FB Jen Santos IG @JenSantosDC Dr. Jen Santos Ultrasounds Dopplers EFM Concerns: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bornwild/episodes/85--Dr--Jen-Santos---Ultrasounds--Dopplers--EFM-Concerns-e20btg7 Jen Santos - Tongue and Lip Ties: https://anchor.fm/bornwild/episodes/62-Jen-Santos---Tongue-and-Lip-Ties-e1ne243 Jen Santos - Chiropractic and Dynamic Body Balancing: https://anchor.fm/bornwild/episodes/Chiropractic-and-Dynamic-Body-Balancing-with-Jen-Santos---S1E28-e19fk2u Listen here: IG: linktree in bio FB: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bornwild/episodes/109--Jen-Santos---Breech-Home-Birth--OP-Home-Birth--Precipitous-Home-Birth-e2khrr1 @sophiabirth @bayareahomebirth @bornwildmidwifery Stay Wild

The amazing Gina Conley from MamasteFit joins Meagan today to answer your questions all about perinatal fitness! Gina is a birth doula, perinatal fitness trainer, and founder of MamasteFit. ​​In partnership with her sister, Roxanne, who is a labor and delivery nurse and student-midwife, MamasteFit is a place for women to find education courses and fitness programs to be their strongest selves during each stage of motherhood. Gina shares her expertise on how exercise affects babies during pregnancy, labor, birth, and postpartum. She also touches on topics like when to start prenatal exercise, what to do if you didn't exercise before pregnancy, how late into pregnancy you can exercise, weightlifting, and which movements to incorporate to create more space in the pelvis. Gina's comprehensive prenatal fitness book, Training for Two, will be released in September 2024. It is a fantastic resource for all pregnant women!Link to Gina's Book: Training for TwoMamasteFit WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 01:00 Review of the Week03:59 Is it bad to exercise during pregnancy? 09:00 How will exercise affect my baby's development? 13:40 Better pregnancies, better birth outcomes16:23 What do I do if I wasn't active before pregnancy?19:30 Movements to incorporate20:59 Three pelvic levels 23:19 The mid-pelvis and outlet25:56 Being told that your pelvis is too small30:36 How late in pregnancy is okay to work out?32:31 When is it too late to start exercising during pregnancy?34:43 Postpartum fitness39:20 Weightlifting and pregnancy45:51 Training for TwoMeagan: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the show. We are going to be talking about prenatal fitness today with the one and only Gina Conley. Gina is the founder of MamasteFit, a prenatal fitness training company based out in North Carolina. Gina is a fitness trainer specializing in pre and post-natal fitness and a birth doula. She combines her expertise in both to prepare her clients for a strong pregnancy and birth. Fitness in general is one of my all-time favorite things to do and talk about. I do notice a difference when I'm not moving my body, but when it comes to pregnancy, there are a lot of questions surrounding fitness. Is it safe? When is it okay to start? Is it really okay to start later on? How to start? And so much more. I can't wait to dive in on all of the amazing information that Gina is going to share after the Review of the Week. 01:00 Review of the WeekMeagan: Just a reminder, if you have not left a review, I would love for you to do so. You can leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, Facebook, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Today's review is by Janae Rachelle. It says, “The Best There Is.” It says, “I am so happy I found this podcast. After having two prior C-sections, I was convinced I would have to have another C-section for my birth this November. I feel empowered and educated and hopeful I can do this. Thank you for all of the true facts and the safe space where we can all talk about our birth trauma and space where we don't sound ‘crazy' for wanting to do something God created our bodies to do.”Thank you, Janae Rachelle, for leaving that review. You are right. This is that space. This is the space where we do talk about all of the crazy things, where we talk about the trauma, where we talk about the things where in the outside world if we were to discuss them, people would and sometimes do look at us like we may be crazy. But Women of Strength, if you are wanting to pursue a VBAC, if you are wanting to learn about the evidence about VBAC, this is definitely the place. All of these stories here are going to share so much information, guidance, facts, and all of the things, and definitely leave you feeling inspired. 03:59 Is it bad to exercise during pregnancy? Meagan: Okay, it's been so fun. We've actually had just a couple of returning guests from the show who have also been on 2-3 years down the road. Before we started recording, Gina was like, “I just had someone say that they listened to my episode that was on your podcast before”, which was 3 years ago. It's fun to see that people one, are still listening all the way back to 3 years ago and then two, have you back on the show. So welcome. Gina: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Meagan: Yes. It's such an honor. You know that I just love you to pieces. I'm so excited to talk about fitness, prenatal, postpartum, and all of the things today because this really is a topic that as a first-time mom, I didn't really know much about. When I was first pregnant with my daughter who is now 12, I was just determined. I was like, I'm going to run. I'm going to run a half marathon. This is going to be so great. I'm going to be one of those running through with a big belly. I was so excited to be fit and active. Let me tell you, I was the opposite of that. When I was training, I started having round ligament pains and pelvic pains. When I talked to my doctor, he actually told me to stop. He told me to stop which is kind of crazy to me looking back that it wasn't even just like, “Maybe do less miles or don't train for a half marathon right now, but do a 5k.” It was just like, “You should just stop. It's too much.” I don't know why I took that advice as, Okay, I should stop and I should eat Chinese food every day because orange chicken sounded amazing and I should really just not do anything besides be unhealthy.That's truly how I felt like I was in my first pregnancy. I don't think providers all over the world are telling people not to work out necessarily like mine did 12 years ago, but I think that it's a very daunting topic and we don't know what to do. I think a lot of people who may not be very physically active before pregnancy are unsure what they can do during pregnancy, if it's safe, and all of the things. We have a big list of questions today to ask you and really, number one is Is it bad to work out during pregnancy? My easy answer is no, but I think it's a real answer. Can we talk about that? Working out during pregnancy– is it bad? Is it good? Tell me all of the things. Gina: There is a lot of fear-mongering and fear involved with exercise during pregnancy. There is this really long list of things that you shouldn't do so it gets really overwhelming to know, Well, what can I do? when the majority of the things that you see are Don't do sit-ups. Don't do this. Don't do that. If you lift weights, you'll have a miscarriage. A lot of fear that comes with fitness during pregnancy is, Is it going to affect my baby's development and growth? Am I harming my baby by exercising? And then the second is, Is it going to affect my pregnancy length? Am I going to have a miscarriage or go into pre-term labor because I was exercising during my pregnancy? The answer to both of those is generally no. Just as a disclaimer, there are absolutely complications in which the benefits of exercising do not outweigh the risks of exercising. These are usually folks who have preexisting heart and lung conditions, if you have uncontrolled diabetes, if you are actively in pre-term labor, if your placenta is detaching, or have severe preeclampsia. There are circumstances in which exercising is not safe and your provider should be very clear in communicating that to you. You will probably already have preexisting exercise recommendations if it is a preexisting health condition. But for the majority of us who are of a normal-risk pregnancy, even some high-risk pregnancies, exercise is typically very safe to do. So a lot of research supports that it does not cause miscarriage and it does not affect the length of your pregnancy which is one of the major concerns with exercising. The risk of miscarriage is highest in the first trimester and it doesn't differ whether you exercise or you don't. Exercise does not cause miscarriage. It's just something else that folks like to be blamed for when they do have a pregnancy loss. It was because I went running. It was because I lifted weights. Typically, there is nothing that you could do do prevent that pregnancy loss and it just sucks to be mourning this and then to have this additional guilt put on you like it was because you were lifting weights. There are people who are sedentary and don't exercise at all and have miscarriages. Are we blaming them that it's because you didn't exercise? No, because it's one of those things that is out of our control. 09:00 How will exercise affect my baby's development? Gina:The second thing is, is it going to affect my baby's development? Like, is it going to make them too small? Is it going to make them too large? One of the things that can make your baby too small is the placenta. So if the placenta hasn't developed properly or there's an issue or complication with the placenta, it can make your baby too small. Well, exercise helps to improve the function of your placenta, especially if you exercise in the first half of your pregnancy, which is really cool. Your placenta will be more voluminous. It'll be larger and it'll have improved functional capacity. It's going to be able to transfer oxygen and nutrients to your baby much more effectively. It's going to help provide immune function to your baby. It's going to provide hormone function to your baby. It's also going to help remove metabolic waste more effectively. It's going to be a much more efficient organ, which is going to help to support your baby's growth. The second half is like, is it going to make my baby too big? I think most folks are not concerned about exercising and making their baby too big, but exercising could decrease the risk of developing gestational diabetes. Obviously, you can still exercise and eat super healthy and still develop gestational diabetes. It's not a foolproof method to avoid it. But exercising can help reduce your risk of developing gestational diabetes by 39% which is pretty substantial. And if you do develop it, continuing to exercise and eat well can also help to reduce the risk of you needing to get insulin or medication to manage your gestational diabetes. Those are the things that are contributing towards developing a baby that's too large. So having gestational diabetes that's controlled with insulin, uncontrolled gestational diabetes, and those two things can be mitigated with exercise. Exercise can actually help your baby grow more optimally, to have really good body composition, and be a really good size.In addition, which is really cool– and this is stuff that I was researching when I was writing my new book, Training for Two, which comes out in September. I'm really excited about it. I guess it's like the twins in my current pregnancy. Meagan: It's awesome. Gina: But one of the things that I was researching because our editor was like, “We really need to highlight why exercise is so beneficial for baby because this is something that's going to help motivate people to move their body.” Something for me that has been helping to motivate me during my current pregnancy to move when I'm kind of like, But I don't really feel up to it is one, it helps to improve your baby's nervous system development, which is really cool. It helps to increase their blood volume as well. They have more blood reserve to respond to the stresses of labor and to postpartum after they are infants. When they're in the world, it improves their brain development. They have more cognitive function. And these are all things that are probably in response to the stimulus of exercise. So we're introducing more stimulus to them during exercise because of this controlled stress that we're introducing which is helping to build all these new neural pathways and helping them just start doing things a little bit earlier. What that translates to in the first year of life, they have more motor skill development, so their fine and gross motor skills. They're crawling earlier, they're walking earlier, they're rolling and doing things earlier. They have more cognitive function. That's responding with higher levels of IQ and improved language skills. Meagan: Wow. Gina: So there's a lot of benefit to just being active. It doesn't have to be go and lift super heavy weights. It can just be going for walks every day, doing yoga every day, and doing intentional movement throughout the day is exercise. It doesn't have to be like how I exercise. Then what happens is that even though there are all of these benefits to exercising and fairly little risk unless you have like a complication which your provider will ideally walk you through. Even though there are all these benefits, there's still a lot of fear involved with working out during pregnancy. A lot of it's just outdated guidance and folks. I think it probably relates to the fear of women lifting weights and exercising, too. Maybe it's a little bit of that as well. And then make it somebody who's pregnant and it's just like a double whammy. So we have this mentality of like, Well, it's better to be safe than sorry. And it's like, Well, actually, you can be sorry. You can actually be sorry if you don't move your body intentionally during your pregnancy because one, not that your baby would be less developed, but we're going to say no thanks to those additional development things that they're having with the nervous system and their brain development. Those are two really big deals, I think. We're going to say no to a larger, more functional placenta which really helps to decrease the risk of developing certain complications during pregnancy. We're going to say like, I'm good with increasing my risk of developing like a prenatal complication, which again, exercising does not equal no complications, but it does reduce the risk to include preeclampsia, gestational hypertension, and gestational diabetes. 13:40 Better pregnancies, better birth outcomesGina: And if we have a healthier pregnancy, it's going to serve us better during labor as well or in the preparation for labor. We develop complications. It increases the necessity of a medical induction. It increases the number of interventions that were being used during our birth. And yes, I am so thankful for medical intervention, for C-sections, and for these things that save lives. But if we can use less of them because we're healthier going into our birth, that's going to help improve birth outcomes as well. This is a VBAC podcast. So if you're wanting to have a vaginal birth after a C-section, being healthier during your pregnancy by moving your body intentionally is a really good way to help reduce the risk of needing these additional interventions. I'm thankful for them. But if you don't need them, let's go around that. Let's do that path. Meagan: Let's avoid them if we can. Absolutely. And let me tell you, talking about my first pregnancy where I just kind of quit, I mean, I didn't even really walk. I mean, not even like a 30-minute stroll at night. I just stopped and I really didn't pay attention to my protein intake or what I was really eating. I mean, I was literally told this at the end that I was unrecognizable. Everything about my body was trying to just make a baby and it was showing in a negative way because I was struggling. I got super swollen. I gained a lot more weight. I really was not in shape. When labor came, it was harder. It was a lot harder. And then postpartum was really hard. And then having to catch up to all the things that I did to my body, but then not even to think about all the things that you just said about the baby. I mean, I was one of those people that signed up to the “no thanks”. I mean, essentially, right? It wasn't in my head that I was saying that. And then after my, that pregnancy, I was like, I will not do that again. I did. I started changing my ways and doing intentional movement. I became a Barre coach and really wanted to be active. It was a night and day difference, night and day difference. I don't think my baby's less smart or whatever, but I will say that like what you said, I can look back and be like, Oh, oh, I can recognize those things. So that's kind of interesting. Gina: So it's not like if you don't exercise, you're screwing up your baby's life or anything. I don't know how to feel the differences between the two, but if you can do things to help improve your baby's growth and development, I think we would want to do that. Even if it's just going for a walk, just move your body. 16:23 What do I do if I wasn't active before pregnancy?Gina: I think one of the things is the next question that's on the list is like, Well, what do I do if I wasn't active before pregnancy?Meagan: Yes. Gina: Because I do have folks that'll either come to my gym– we're located in Aberdeen, North Carolina. We have an in-person training facility. And so we'll have folks that show up and be like, “I have never exercised before in my life, but I heard it's really good for me and I'm pregnant. Help me.” You can absolutely start an exercise program during pregnancy. This is hard to know because you get told, “Whatever you're doing before pregnancy, you could just continue during your pregnancy, just do a little bit less.” What if I was not doing anything? How do I do less than that? Like what does that even look like? Meagan: Right. Gina: You can absolutely start an exercise program during pregnancy. Yes, it will look different than pre-pregnancy workouts. If you were an active person before pregnancy, there will be some sort of modification that needs to happen because workouts can't look exactly the same when we're pregnant. But if you're like, Okay, how do I even begin? Just pick 20 minutes where you go for a walk. Pick 20 minutes where you choose a Peloton on-demand video. They have prenatal ones on there too where you just follow that. We have prenatal on-demand workout videos as well. We also have a prenatal app-based program, so we have some different options as well. Just choose a 20-minute option and just move. Just move your body. Use lighter weights. We're not trying to get super sore. You probably will be sore the first week or so. It's just part of getting used to the program.Meagan: It's not normal, yeah. Gina: It's normal, but don't be working out so hard that you're incapacitated the rest of your day, start for 20 minutes and do that three times a week, and then the next week do it four times and then increase it to 30 minutes. Then maybe it's 40 minutes and then you're walking more. We're just going to start really slow and manageable, and then we're going to just slowly increase during pregnancy. The main goal during pregnancy is 150 minutes of moderate-intensity activity per week. That's the minimum goal. So if you exceed that, that's totally fine. Research supports that even higher-intensity activity is perfectly safe during pregnancy. A higher volume of exercise is perfectly safe. But the bare minimum that we're trying to aim for is 150 minutes. That's five days a week for 30 minutes or whatever the math is for the other one. But you can also do more than that. I would start with 20 minutes of something that feels manageable for you and do that and if it's, “Hey, I need to follow a program,” we've got programs for you. We've developed them for pregnancy specifically. There's Peloton on-demand. There are so many workout programs out there for pregnancy too. They're going to have safe modifications for you. You can hire a personal trainer. You can join an in-person gym. We're just looking for you to move your body in a way that feels manageable for you and it's okay if it's not perfect pregnancy workouts either. Now if you're an active person or you're like, Okay, I have done my month of exercising. I'm feeling more confident, this is where we can start to really ensure that our workouts are not only keeping us active and moving us during our pregnancy but also helping us actually prepare for birth. 19:30 Movements to incorporateGina: Common workout programs are really focused on front-to-back type movement patterns. This is the sagittal plane. This is like squats, deadlifts, cleans, clean-and-jerks, box jumps. Everything is very front-to-back because this is the way that we move our bodies. When we walk we typically walk in a front-to-back movement pattern. However, we also need to be moving laterally and rotationally as well which is another myth. Can I twist during pregnancy? Yes, you can twist. It's necessary to twist. If you don't twist, your back will hurt. I promise you it's okay to twist. Now we don't want to do such deep twists that we're compressing our belly because it would be really uncomfortable. Not because it would be harmful for you, but we want to we want to be comfortable during our pregnancy. We want to also be incorporating movement patterns that are in other planes of motion ot just front-to-back. We also want lateral movements like lateral band walks, side lunges, and movements where we're just we're going in this direction. And then we also want rotational movements. So like when I'm doing lunges, I'm adding an internal to an external rotation or I'm doing a rotation with a core exercise. We want to think about what type of movements are we incorporating or are included in our workout programs because that is really important to creating space in our pelvis which is not the point of this episode, but fitness can really relate to labor in that aspect as well. It's keeping you strong during your pregnancy. It's helping to support your baby's development. It's helping to decrease your risk of complication but we can also use it to help prepare for our birth. 20:59 Three pelvic levels Gina: And so there are three pelvic levels and I'll go over this super quick. The top opens in one way, then we have the middle, and then we have the bottom. We have inlet, mid-pelvis, outlet, and they all open with different types of movement patterns which is where moving in different planes of motion is going to be really helpful. The top of the pelvis opens with wider knee movement patterns like an external hip rotation with an anterior tilt with abduction. Legs are moving out. Think knees out, ankles in so really deep squats for example. An anterior tilt or arching your back is going to be really helpful because this makes it easier for you to find external rotation. It also changes the pubic bone angle and makes it easier for baby to enter into the pelvis. The good news is we already do that during pregnancy. That's a common postural tendency that we have. We like to live in that position. It's comfortable for us. We have more weight on the front. We're just extending in our spine and just loving that spot. However, we also need to be able to find other types of movements such as a posterior pelvic tilt or rounding in the back. This one is really important to opening the top of the pelvis in addition to an anterior tilt. So with a posterior pelvic tilt, we have this big chunk of bone on the back of our pelvis called the sacral promontory that moves backward when we tuck our butt underneath or we round in our back. That anterior pelvic tilt creates a little bit more space in the front half of the inlet and then that posterior pelvic tilt creates more space in the back. We want to be able to shift between the two but because we always favor this extended position, it can be really hard to find that rounded position. If you had a prior labor where baby just never entered and they were like, “Your pelvis is just too small. Baby just can't fit in your pelvis,” it probably was more related to whether or not you can find– and I don't want to blame anybody for what happened with labors but just helpful tips. If you're having a hard time finding a round in your back or tucking your butt underneath, it's going to be harder to create that front-to-back space in the pelvic inlet and it can make it harder for baby to enter. So during our prenatal workouts, we want to think about, Okay, what can we do to help me find more of a rounded position? We can release tension in our lats or musculature. We can release tension in our hip flexors. We can incorporate pelvic tilts into our movement patterns. Those are some things that we can do to help us find this more rounded position. 23:19 The mid-pelvis and outletGina: The next pelvic level the mid pelvis is asymmetrical movements like side-to-side, hip shifting, and so we have a little bit of external rotation and a little bit of internal rotation. We're just going back and forth between the two. Then the bottom of the pelvis with the pelvic outlet is essentially like the opposite of the inlet where we have an internal rotation at the hip where knees in, ankles out is creating more space side-to-side. A slight posterior pelvic tilt can help to make internal rotation easier, but we're not necessarily rounding in our back as we're pushing because it's not really that comfortable. Anterior pelvic tilt or a little bit more lat tension can kind of pull that sacrum back so we're kind of back to that pelvic tilting a little bit in the outlet, but we're really focusing on that internal rotation to create space. But if we recall, our favorite positions during pregnancy are extension and external rotation. That rounded position is harder and internal rotation is harder. In addition, that prenatal posture tends to make the back half of the pelvic floor really tight so we need to one, be able to release tension in the posterior pelvic floor and help us find more internal rotation. We can do that with our prenatal workouts as well. This is where hip-shifted exercises can be really beneficial like finding internal-external rotation with our single leg movements. These are all things that we incorporate within our prenatal programming because we have been observing birth and people working out for a really long time and we want to help you move through your pregnancy and through your birth. We also have a free birth prep circuit that I'll give you the link for that you can put in the notes as well. It has six movements that help you release those common areas of tension. We also have our prenatal fitness program if anybody's interested in working out. We have lots of different options for that as well. But when we're looking at our prenatal workouts, we need to look beyond just one– we just want to be active and intentionally active and then two– we want to think, Okay. Well, how does my workout help to support my birth preparation? How is it helping to create more space in my pelvis? How is it helping me release tension in my pelvic floor? Those are things that are going to help us to support us during birth. Yeah, that was a really long answer to you. Meagan: No, it was an amazing answer. It's interesting because I never really thought when you were like, “Front-to-back”, we focus so much on front-to-back. There's that lateral movement that a lot of the time we skip and I didn't even think of that. I know in your book, we've got a couple of little teasers online within your book. You've been showing different ways to work those sides and move your body in different ways. That is amazing. 25:56 Being told that your pelvis is too smallI love that you talked about the pelvis, the inlet, the middle, and the outlet because I'm pretty sure you probably have known this within the VBAC community. How many times are we told that our pelvis is too small? I mean, all of the time. Gina: It makes me so mad. Once you get told something really random or a fun fact about your pelvis like, “You have a really prominent sacrum or pubic bone.” What does that mean? Meagan: Yes. What does that mean? Gina: How can I take that information and do something with it? Instead of acknowledging that yes, each of us has different types of pelvises. Similarly, we're all from different ethnic backgrounds. Of course, we would have slightly different pelvises. We have different femur lengths. Meagan: Right. Gina: However, we can all still figure out how to squat and figure out how to do movement patterns that make us functional humans even with differing bone structures. It just blows my mind that we don't acknowledge the fact that the pelvis can change shape and diameter and displacement with movement. Our baby is also shape-shifting and wiggling their way through the pelvis as well. But the only person to blame is you. It's because your pelvis is just too small. Meagan: Right. I know. Gina: Maybe you didn't know how to support me. Meagan: I know I have those same feelings. It's very frustrating. I think it's probably a little extra salt on the wound because I was told that. I was told that I would never get a baby out of my pelvis. Like you were saying, you're like, “Well, maybe I just wasn't supported well enough. Maybe I wasn't given the tools or the positions,” like what you're describing. I mean, with my first labor, I just sat there in the bed, clinging to the side, and then got an epidural and sat there. Really? Like, so I wasn't moving my pelvis. I wasn't doing those asymmetrical movements. I really wasn't working with my body to get my baby out. Okay. So a question that I know that we have received is the anterior placenta. So does fitness change if or what we're doing change if we have an anterior placenta? Gina: Really, if you have an anterior placenta, a posterior placenta, it closes out on the side, it doesn't really matter where it is unless it is covering the cervix. At that point, like, there will probably be some sort of modification, because we don't want to have any sort of cervical dilation or cramping or urinary irritability that can cause the cervix to begin to dilate which may cause the placenta to start to detach which would not be ideal. So typically, if you have any sort of placenta previa, potentially like a low-lying placenta in the third trimester, after 28 weeks, we probably want to modify it to where we're not doing super deep squats. We're not exercising at a high intensity. It's low to moderate. If you are experiencing any bleeding or cramping during your workouts, you're stopping immediately. But in regards to the placenta being in the front or the back, there really is no difference when it comes to exercise. The baby is pretty snug as a bug in a rug. Meagan: Snug as a bug in a rug. They are pretty protected in there. They are pretty deep in there. Gina: They are. They are. Now when it comes to certain birth options, sometimes an anterior placenta– usually with an ECV if baby's are breech, providers don't want to do it if you have an anterior placenta. It may be harder for you to feel your babies. You should feel your baby but it may be muted. You would be like, I kind of feel you, when in comparison, if you had a posterior placenta, there's a little alien rolling around in your belly.Meagan: Right. Or you might not feel kicks until them later on in your pregnancy when someone with a posterior placenta is feeling those little butterfly kicks early one. Gina: Yeah. It will be more muted. But in regards to exercise, the only placenta position that would result in modifications is a low-lying or placenta previa where the placenta is covering the cervix. But usually for those, if you found out at your 18-week anatomy scan, they usually resolve within a few weeks so you can always ask for a repeat scan, but typically, we don't need to modify until the 28-week mark. But again, if your provider has given you specific guidance on what they consider to be safe for you with exercise because again, they are looking at your medical records. They are looking at you as an individual and this is just a podcast. Definitely go with their guidance, but typically, they do move. There usually is not an issue into the third trimester with that either. Meagan: Yeah. Okay, so good. 30:36 How late in pregnancy is okay to work out?Meagan: Another question is, How “late in pregnancy” is okay for me to work out? We're talking about early, what we're doing. We may be started to feel really good. We may be increasing our physical activity. We might be more mindful. Now, it's on top of intentional movement. It's on birth prep and really getting ready for this birth journey. Is there a time when we should cut off physical activity or is it okay to be doing squats and lateral movements and yoga one day and go into labor the next day?Gina: You can workout until the day that you give birth. Now, how intense your workouts are will probably decrease toward the end of the third trimester. For us, around the 36-37-week mark, we do certain tapering in the program which means we start decreasing overall volume and intensity of workouts because one, we are just more tired at the end of the pregnancy. We still want to move and be active, but we also need to be in the mind that, Tonight, I might go into labor so I don't want to be super sore from my workout. Similar to if I was training for an athletic event, not that birth is a competition or anything, I wouldn't want to be doing my hardest workout the morning of the competition. Again, birth is not a competition but with that type of fitness mentality, you're like, Okay, well birth is probably going to be physically demanding even if it's super fast. It's still physically demanding. I probably don't want to be super sore or super fatigued going into that. So around the 36-37-week mark, you can decrease overall volume. If you were working out at 200 minutes a week, maybe at week 37, we are only doing 150 minutes a week, and at week 38, we are doing 100 minutes a week and then maintaining that so whenever your baby decides to come. 32:31 When is it too late to start exercising during pregnancy?Gina: We also get folks who ask, When is it too late to start? I would say if you gave birth, it's too late. It's probably too late for prenatal fitness at this point. Kind of like, When is it too late to get an epidural? It's when your baby is born. When your baby is born, it's too late to start a prenatal fitness program. We will have folks who are 35 weeks. They are like, I'll just wait for postpartum. I'm like, You might have 2 months left. That's a long time. 8 weeks, that's a whole fitness challenge or whatever. You know those ones where it's like, “6 Weeks to a Bigger Booty”, it might be 6 weeks until a baby. That's still a good period of time to move your body. It doesn't have to be training for a PR, it's just learning how to release tension, starting to build up some stamina, some endurance for the big day. Now, if you're 38 weeks and you're in that, I could go into labor anytime, I probably wouldn't start a lifting program at that point. I would probably be focusing more on yoga and mobility-type things. Walking, just trying to release tension in my body. I wouldn't be like, Let me go squat and deadlift for the first time in my whole pregnancy. I would do more breathing and stretching. That would be more reasonable to me. Once you hit the 36-37 mark and you're like, Can I start something now? Absolutely. A prenatal yoga program would be my recommendation. Going for walks and things like that. If you're 32, 33 or even to 35 weeks, I would say that you can start a lifting program. I would say to start our prenatal program at that point because we do have a monthly option. You can just grab the months that you need. We also have a just third-trimester program on demand. You can still intentionally move, but it's just going to be a little bit more mindful to the fact that we are kind of at the end of this journey, but it's definitely not too late to start unless you gave birth. At that point, it's probably a little too late. But what can you do? Meagan: Now you're going into postpartum after your baby is born. Gina: Yeah, then we can focus on postpartum stuff. 34:43 Postpartum fitnessMeagan: Which is also a thing. There are postpartum programs. There's a lot after birth that we can do. I know this wasn't in the questions that we were talking about but it led into this where a lot of people don't know when they can start working out after birth. For my second C-section, at that point, I was a Barre instructor and at 4 weeks, I went back before I was technically cleared. I was just following my body doing the very minimal. When is it appropriate to start a postpartum training program? Gina: It depends on the program. We have a free early postpartum recovery course that is intended to start within a few days after birth which is just breathing mobility and some stretches. It's really, really gentle stuff just to reconnect with our body but it's not like, go lift weights or anything. Usually, I would recommend doing a gentle program like that for 4-6 weeks. I'll give you the link to that as well as another. It's just a program that we offer. After the 10-week mark is when most folks can start to return to fitness. This will vary from person to person, whether you had a vaginal birth, whether you had a C-section, whether you had a hemorrhage, how much support do you have postpartum, and how your healing has been so far. It can really vary from person to person. I can't even say 4 weeks for unmedicated vaginal birth, 10 weeks if you had a labored C-section because even within that is a whole realm of where you might be. Meagan: It is. Gina: So just giving yourself some grace and knowing that there is plenty of time to return to fitness. Obviously, we don't want to wait 5 years, but it's okay. Meagan: You don't have to jump into it. Gina: Yeah, it's okay if it's 12 weeks before you start a program. It will be fine. Again, we don't want to wait for 5 years. That's a long time to live with whatever we are having postpartum. Usually 4-10 weeks is when I say if you feel ready and you want to start moving your body, that's usually a good time to start. We're looking for bleeding to pretty much be stopped. We're not having any issues still lingering from birth so we are not having any infections from birth. We are not having post-birth surgeries or anything like that. That may delay things a little bit longer. If you've had a hemorrhage, that will delay you a little bit just because your blook is trying to replenish itself from all of that. Sometimes a C-section blood loss or hemorrhage can be a little bit higher, but you can also have severe hemorrhage from a vaginal birth as well. Just honor how you are feeling. Then when you do return to fitness, it is a gradual slow process of reconnecting with this new body. I know there sometimes is this mentality of, I want to bounce back. I want to get back to who I was, especially if postpartum is hard, which it is, or if birth wasn't what you expected, which it can be for a lot of folks. There can be this, Let me get back to something that reminds me of myself and who I was before so I'll do my workouts and get back to my workouts. Meagan: That was me. Gina: I love working out. That's a part of my identity. I can sympathize with that desire, but if we rush that process, it's going to delay you in the long run. You'll be 4-6 months postpartum. You'll be like, Why am I still leaking? Why do I still have a diastasis? I just feel unstable. But when we take the time in the beginning to really reconnect, really focus on the foundational core work, and really rebuild slowly which is painful to do sometimes. Not painful physically, but painful mentally, it really helps so, so much in the long run. So take your time. Again, we have a program to support you if you want it but there are so many programs out there too that suit everyone's individual needs depending on the sport that you are trying to get back to as well. Meagan: Right, I love how you talked about mentally it can be so hard. It was for me. It just was so hard. I just needed to get out and move my body. I did follow my body, but so what you were saying, mentally it is hard and can hurt us but physically it was too much for me. I did have to take a step back. I went to this hour class. I cut it back, but it set me back 3 more weeks because I was like, Okay, I probably shouldn't have done that. Noted. Thanks body. Gina: It happens. It happens to the best of us. Meagan: Thanks body for letting us know. I was able to return. I love how you talked about reconnecting with our pelvic floor and all of the things. Breathing in itself is so powerful, so I love that you are focusing on that. We'll make sure to put in the show notes the link for your program. 39:20 Weightlifting and pregnancyMeagan: Okay, so last two questions. Weightlifting is a big one. I love weightlifting myself and I follow quite a few accounts who have gone through pregnancy like yourself and weight lifted. I am flabbergasted to see some of the negative comments on pregnant people lifting because it bugs me. It bugs me that people are so negative about it and judging them like, What are you doing? You kind of touched on that earlier. I don't know why lifting sometimes with women in general, but then add pregnancy to that is really hard. You kind of mentioned that maybe at the end you're not going to join a weightlifting program, but how can someone start with a very gentle approach to weightlifting? I do feel like especially if weightlifting is not something you are used to, it can be very, very intimidating. I know in your book, you have a section where you're like, Instead of doing this, try this. Instead of doing deadlifts, try these, which is awesome because it can give us an idea. But can you guide someone who is like, I really want to weightlift but I'm so intimidated to start? What is a gentle way to start approaching that? Gina: If you live by us, you can just come to our gym and we will walk you through it which is usually the easiest way to learn how. If there is a lifting class somewhere or an intro to lifting or even a women's fitness-type class, that could be a good way to get introduced to, How do I lift safely? Some CrossFit gyms will have Intro to CrossFit which can or cannot be great for starting during pregnancy, but they can at least teach you how to squat, how to deadlift, how to bench press, and there are barbell gyms out there that might have lifting classes. Even just box gyms like Planet Fitness or Gold's Gym might have lifting classes. Hire a personal trainer to walk you through what to do. That can take some of the intimidation out because you don't have to walk into this gym into this section that is male-dominated and be like, “Hello. I am pregnant. I am trying to squat. Can you hand me a dumbbell?” So it can be really scary to do that. You can also purchase some weights for your home. Dicks Sporting Goods has really good deals on gym equipment that is very inexpensive. It is cheaper quality so they won't last you a long time, but if you're like,  I just need to get started, that can be a great place to go. Amazon has really good sales pretty frequently to get cheap equipment that is still a moderate quality. Rep Fitness is one of our favorites for higher quality equipment that is still affordable then Rogue would be the super expensive brand. I would say them and Rep Fitness are the same quality. It depends on how much you want to invest. You can get the stuff and have it at your home as well. Usually, I would say to grab some dumbbells. If you want to explore barbell, buy a barbell and some bumper plates. They have sets that you can get for that. You can buy yourself a squat rack. That's if you want to do barbell stuff. You can also do a ton of stuff with just kettlebells and dumbbells. I really like resistance bands. Those are huge in our programming. They are really un-intimidating. They are very easy to use. They are an attachment point for resistance bands. A box to step up on. You can also use a stool. It's easy to get started, but you just have to figure out what type of environment you want to get started in. Do you want to start with a coach-type environment to guide you through it or do you want to try to figure it out on your own? With our programming, we walk you through how to do each movement especially with the on-demand one so you can see, Okay, this is how I'm supposed to do it, and then there will be some experimenting to figure out what feels good for you in your body to be like, Okay, when I squat, I have to spread my feet out a little bit more and that feels better for me, kind of thing. That can be a good way to get into it. Know that it is safe to do. I think that is probably the first fear that it is safe to do. I think that's what you were saying. Folks love to comment some hateful things on people who are lifting weights during pregnancy. The comment the same shit on a female just lifting weights who is not pregnant. I don't know if it's dudes out there who are feeling very inadequate with themselves that they are like, I cannot stand that there is a strong woman out there so I'm just going to comment and critique her, then like I said before, you add on the additional layer that now she is pregnant and we have this overall belief that exercise is dangerous, people say some horrible things. I'm like, You do know you don't have to comment on things, right? Meagan: I know. You can actually just swipe on. Gina: Those can be inside thoughts. Meagan: Yes. If you don't have a nice comment to say, leave me alone. Gina: Yes, because you know what happens? You comment and then you get more pregnancy content on your feed then you're like, Why is this pregnancy post popping up on my feed? It's probably because you commented on this pregnant woman who was lifting weights and you said some nasty shit. That's probably why it's popping up on your feed, bro. Meagan: I love it. Oh my gosh. I know, but it actually makes me very angry and it's not even just men. It's women too. Why do we have to berate people for being active and choosing to lift weights during pregnancy or run marathons during pregnancy or do whatever they want? It is their body. Let them do it and honestly, we need people to share like what you guys do. We need these videos because it does offer us inspiration and also offers us a sense of, Oh, what they're saying over here isn't true. I want to learn more about this. It's so frustrating, but it's possible. So if you want to lift weights, Women of Strength, and you're listening, go for it. Go for it. Check out their program. Get the book which we're going to talk about right now I'm hoping and learn more. Learn more about fitness in pregnancy and the benefits for both mom and baby which we were just talking about in the beginning of this. 45:51 Training for TwoMeagan: Let's talk more about your book. You said earlier this is like the twin to your current pregnancy. I'm sure this is like another baby. I'm so excited for you. I'm so proud of you. I hope everybody in the world gets it. So tell us more about it and all of the things. You've got three parts, right? Gina: So right now, this is just one part to the book. Hopefully it turns into a three-part series so I need your pre-orders so that we can make a second part and a third part. Meagan: Pre-order everyone. Gina: That's how we get the next two parts. The first part which will hopefully be a three-part series is all about how you can use prenatal fitness to support a strong pregnancy, a pain-free pregnancy and then also use that to prepare for birth because prenatal fitness is not just a list of pregnancy-safe “exercises”. It's not just take out all of the sit-ups and crunches and all of the jumping and now it's a pregnancy program which is what the majority of pregnancy programs are. It's just a bunch of random exercises that just don't involve crunches and sit-ups. Cool. That's a great first step. But we can take it way further by ensuring that our workouts are also helping us to prepare for birth. We're taking the pelvic floor into account. How are we integrating that in the overall system? How are we learning to release tension? How are we increasing mobility within our hips so we can find that internally and externally pelvic mobility. What movements are we incorporating to help increase the pelvic space so we can create more space for baby to navigate through? What kind of movements are we incorporating into our workout that helps us for our baby's position? We're not trying to force baby into any position, but we want to make it easy for them to find whatever their best position is. We can do that with our prenatal workouts. The book is going to break that down for you. It's definitely a little bit heavier on the lifting side so it includes modifications for how to deadlift during pregnancy and how to bench press during pregnancy. All of these main lifts, we incorporate tons of accessory exercises such as core exercises that you can do during pregnancy, what signs and symptoms to be mindful of when doing core exercises, how to protect your core and pelvic floor during pregnancy. We incorporate exercises to help with pelvic stability because pelvic pain is super common but you don't have to be in pain during pregnancy. Similar to you, my provider when I told him I had pelvic pain, they were like, “That sucks. When you give birth, it will go away.” I'm like, Well, that's not true. There is a lot you can do during pregnancy to help resolve that as well. The book is a collection of all of the things I have learned through working with in-person prenatal clients and supporting in-person births. Hundreds of clients have helped me gain this information to write this book. My educational background and things that I've researched and studied have all been consolidated within this book specifically to prenatal fitness and using your prenatal fitness to stay strong and then also to help you prepare for birth. There is a little bit in there on labor. A bunch of that stuff got taken out because I write a lot. I have too much knowledge in this head of mine so that's why I need a three-part series then there is one chapter on early postpartum recovery as well. We also include how to recover from a C-section in there. It's just the first month postpartum so it's just a taste of what book three will be. So help me get part two and three by pre-ordering the book. It's on Amazon. I'll give you the link as well. It's $24-25. The book comes out September 14th so hopefully after my baby has been born. I will be very sad if I'm 43 weeks pregnant so I will be in the infancy of my postpartum with a newborn when this next baby, baby B has been born and would love your support with preordering it. We're trying to figure out pre-order incentives right now. We may have a chapter that got cut, so if you pre-order, you get that chapter as a PDF which is all of the labor stuff- how to address labor stalls, laboring positions, what a contraction is. Meagan: So good. Gina: It was such a good chapter, but that will be in part two which is going to be birth. Part three is postpartum fitness so help me get the other parts by ordering the book. Meagan: Yes. Gina: It's on right now. I am really excited about it. So yeah. Meagan: I am so excited for you. Yeah. it's $24.99. That is amazing. We will make sure like she said to have the links to all of these things including this book pre-order link in the show notes. Right now, as soon as you are done listening and you're like, Dang, that was an awesome episode, go down. Click the link and support her by buying her book. It is called Training for Two. She's absolutely beautiful on that front cover holding her sweet baby bump. You guys, I'm so excited for this book. I'm so excited for you and I'm so grateful that you were with us today sharing all of this information. Gina: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Aisha's first baby was a scheduled Cesarean for a breech presentation during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. Though she was symptom-free, Aisha tested positive for COVID and was not able to be with her husband or her baby right after birth. Her surgery was routine and uneventful, but the isolation left her devastated. Aisha moved and was living in Oregon during her second pregnancy. She deeply desired a home birth and found a midwife to support her who also happened to be trained in vaginal breech delivery. Aisha went into labor sooner than expected but handled it beautifully. When it was time to push, surprisingly, feet started coming out first! Her team stayed calm and ultimately brought her baby earthside safely. Aisha is so proud of what she accomplished! Evidence-Based Birth ArticleThe VBAC Link Blog: ECV ExplainedThe VBAC Link Blog: How to Turn a Breech BabyThe VBAC Link Podcast: Chelsey's 2VBA2C Breech BabiesNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 03:31 Review of the Week06:10 Aisha's first birth11:16 A COVID-positive Cesarean14:38 Third pregnancy20:02 Planning for a home birth22:51 Breech workshop with Dr. Stu24:57 Labor begins31:25 Pushing out an unexpectedly breech baby35:29 Reviving baby40:53 Vaginal breech birth is possible49:39 Adding to the supportive provider listMeagan: Hey, hey everybody. Guess what? We have a breech VBAC, actually, it's a breech HBAC coming your way today. We have our friend, Aisha, with us and she is going to be sharing her amazing journeys. We know that when it comes to breech, it is difficult to find support. It is difficult to find the evidence in that and this is one of the number one reasons for Cesareans in the first place. If you have gone through our podcast, we have over 300 episodes at this point, you will probably hear quite a bit that, “Oh, my baby was breech. We tried an ECV and it didn't work so I had a C-section,” or “My provider didn't even offer that and I had a C-section.” This is one of the number-one leading reasons for a C-section and it doesn't always have to be that way. Aisha is living proof of that. Welcome to the show, love. How are you today? I'm so excited for you to be here. Aisha: Yeah, thanks. I'm so excited to be here. It's like a dream come true. It's wild. Meagan: It was so fun. Before we started recording, she said that not long after she had her baby, she was like, I've got to get my submission into The VBAC Link. Aisha: It was bathtime earlier this week when I saw the email and I was freaking out like, Oh my gosh. It was cool because my daughter is going to be a year old soon, so it was fun to think about her birth and I almost felt guilt because I was like, Oh my gosh, I haven't listened to The VBAC Link in a minute, but how much this podcast blessed me and strengthened me to go on to have a VBAC, specifically a breech VBAC which was not planned for. It was wild and I'm just really grateful for my provider. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. I cannot wait to dive into this story. 03:31 Review of the WeekMeagan: We do have a Review of the Week and then we will turn the time over to our friend, Aisha. This is from larrr23 and it was left in March of 2023 so just over a year ago on Apple Podcasts. It says, “Hi, Meagan. I love your podcast so much. I always end up crying at the end of them. So happy for these moms who get this VBAC. Thank you for creating this podcast. It is so inspiring to hear these stories. I'm 38 weeks pregnant and hope and dream I get my VBAC here soon as well. Keep doing what you are doing here. You are helping so many women achieve their dream birth and knowing that they are not alone. Thank you for that.” Well, larrr23, if you are still listening with us, let us know how your birth went. I hope that you had an amazing birth no matter how it ended. Thank you so much for that sweet review. This is what I really am here for. I love this podcast so much myself. I listen and I record it and I hear these stories, but then I go back and I listen. I'm still hearing and still learning even knowing a lot about VBAC. I am still learning and growing myself and it's just so fun to hear these incredible stories. I'm so grateful for all of you who are submitting your stories and sharing these stories both on Facebook, Instagram, and here on the podcast. So thank you for your review and as always, if you wouldn't mind leaving us a review, they truly are what help other Women of Strength just like you find the podcast. You can leave that anywhere you are listening to the podcast or you can even email us at info@thevbaclink.com. 06:10 Aisha's first birthMeagan: Okay, are you ready to share your stories? Aisha: Yes. Yes. Meagan: I am so excited, so ready. I'd love to turn the time over to you. Aisha: Yeah, okay. So for my VBAC journey, I feel like it's really important to understand how I got there. I got pregnant with my first in 2020. My husband was in the military so we were stationed in South Korea. It was right before we left Korea. We moved back to the States. We had already been going through COVID in Korea so it wasn't as big of a deal because we had it first if that makes sense. We moved back and we are from Washington state so we went, spent time with family, and then we ended up in Texas. Here I am with my first baby, and I don't feel like I'm a naive or ignorant person but I never really thought about the process of having a baby. I'm the oldest. My youngest brother is 13 years younger than me, but I just never really thought about what went into having a baby. Meagan: I agree. That's how I was. I was like, Oh, cool. I'm so excited to have a baby. I'm pregnant. This is cool. All right, cool. What's next? Aisha: Yeah. I got books. I read things. I joined groups. I watched YouTube videos. I listened to the podcast Birth Queens a lot just to understand more. I had a pretty normal pregnancy. There wasn't anything too wild and because it was COVID, there was a lot of things over the phone. A lot of people thought it was weird, my friends and family, but my provider at the military hospital didn't have a good bedside manner and it was known that she didn't. It's hard to explain. My husband was enlisted so he was just by the time he left, he was a Sergeant. He was one of the lower guys, so I don't know if it was us or the culture, but you get nervous to speak out because of rank. He'd be like, “Don't say anything. We don't know if that will get back. You can't be.” Meagan: Or disrespect them? Aisha: Yeah, because there are some military wives who are assertive. Assertive is a better word. I don't like to use "aggressive" with women. She would just say things like, “You're gaining too much weight.” I'm like, “I'm walking every day. What do you want me to do about this?” Meagan: You're like, “I'm also growing a human.” Aisha: Yeah, I know that I'm gaining a lot. I'm seeing that, but what am I supposed to do about this? I just got stressed about the thought of her being near my vagina. I was kind of scared about it because I was like, I really hope it's not you. We get to the 36-37 week appointment and they do a quick ultrasound. They're like, “You're baby's breech.” I was like, “Oh, great. Cool.” They're like, “You can talk to a doctor and talk about an ECV.” I know ECVs can be controversial. Some people are uneasy about them, but one thing I thought was interesting about my life is that I was a breech baby and my mom had an ECV with me. Meagan: Interesting. Aisha: Right? I was born in 1990, so I grew up hearing the story about them trying to flip me. When I heard people like, “Oh, ECVs are so risky,” I was like, “My mom did it. What's so risky about this?” So we went in and the first provider we met with was like, “I like to put you in the operating room. I like to give you an epidural just in case something happens and we have to slice you open,” not like that, but it felt like that. I was like, Whoa. This is a lot.So we get to the day of the hospital and luckily, I'm so glad it was a younger doctor. I was like, "Are you bringing me back to the operating room?” He was like, “No, I like to make you comfortable. You can watch TV.” He was really sweet. It was an interesting experience. Of course, you are wearing masks but I remember the nurse took my mask off to let me breathe because it was painful. But they were so nice. My husband wished we had taken a video of because he was like, “They were pushing so hard on you and they were shaking.” Meagan: Oh, yeah. Aisha: My baby didn't flip. He's going to be 3 in April and he is very stubborn. He does what he wants and I'm like, This is totally you. We ended up getting COVID right before having a baby. My husband did. I tested positive, but I didn't show any signs. It didn't really affect me a lot. I was just kind of crazy. I remember I cooked Easter dinner and he wouldn't eat it. I'm like, “I cooked Easter dinner for you,” and he was really sick with COVID and I'm still doing things. 11:16 A COVID-positive CesareanAisha: We go to the hospital and we test positive again. They have this stupid COVID protocol where I'm like, “I already went through these 10 days,” but they just treated us like we were coming in throwing up on them. Does that make sense? Meagan: Oh yeah, I saw it as a doula. Yes. I had a client who wasn't even sick. She had no idea and tested positive. We all got kicked out and they acted like she was going to kill them. It was really not good. Aisha: Yeah. It was just weird. Because mine wasn't an emergency, I kept getting pushed back because they had emergency C-sections coming. The biggest thing that sticks out to me in my birth was when it was finally my turn, they came to me and they were like, “You're next, but it's going to take a little bit because we have to extra-clean because the last person was COVID.” I'm like, “Why do you have to extra clean? Shouldn't you always clean an operating room? That doesn't make sense to me.” Meagan: You should always extra clean, yeah. Aisha: Yeah, that's gross. What were your protocols before? I don't understand. Meagan: Interesting. Aisha: We didn't go back until 3:00 or 4:00. I don't know. It was late. You know, you're not eating because they tell you not to eat so I'm starving. The doctor who delivered my baby was super nice. She came in and was like, “Let's have a happy birthday today.” I don't remember anything weird. I've listened to some episodes where they're like, “Oh yeah, they were talking about their vacation.” I don't remember that. Meagan: That was me. Aisha: Oh yeah. I felt like it was really respectful. The anesthesiologist, I wish I would have gotten his name. He was wonderful. He was so sweet and kept telling us what was happening. I was like, “Oh my gosh. You are our personal tour guide for this.” He was really kind. I have a nervous cough. I always have when I get nervous. I just cough. After they took my baby out, I coughed. That's where I get emotional so they took my baby away because they were like, “Oh, COVID positive. You coughed.” I'm like, “I have a nervous cough. I always have my whole life.” They took my husband away so I was there for 30 minutes alone. Sorry, I get so emotional thinking about it. All of those sweet pictures that people have, I didn't get that. Oh my gosh. My son is going to be 3 and it still brings me. Meagan: It's still with you, yeah. Aisha: Whenever I talk, yeah. The C-section itself was fine, but it's just the care that got me. I never know how to explain that to people. No, it's the care. So then we finally were in the recovery room. I'm starving. My husband gave me fruit snacks. We didn't realize I was not supposed to eat, but I was starving. We get to the mother's room at 11:00 at night. The kitchen is closed. I'm like, “I'm starving. When can I eat?” The nurse laughs and says, “When you can walk.” I'm like, “But I'm hungry.” She's like, “You've got to get up and walk first.” I'm like, “But I'm hungry.” What? Yeah, so that was him. That's that part. 14:38 Third pregnancyAisha: Everything else was fine. It was just the care. They lock you in a room when you are COVID-positive. It was just wild. When he was about 11 months old, almost a year old, I got pregnant again. We moved from Texas to Oregon because my husband was getting out of the military and sadly, 10 weeks later, I had a miscarriage. I had already picked out the midwives I was going to use in Oregon. I was like, I'm going to have a home birth because Oregon has really good laws when it comes to home birth and I am going to do this. There were a couple of driving factors to that. One, I did not want to go back to the hospital. I was like, I'm not being treated like that again, because I'm a pretty timid person and I don't know if I'd be strong enough to advocate for myself. The other thing is we had a toddler. My mom lived in Seattle and my husband's parents just moved to Idaho. My dad and my step-mom live in Atlanta, Georgia and I'm like, There's no one to take care of my toddler so we'll just have a home birth. My husband was like, “That sounds kind of weird,” but my husband's mom actually had a home birth with her fifth. It wasn't abnormal for my husband's family, but he was kind of like, “Ew, gross.” We always joked right before I had my first if it was a scheduled C-section, my husband wouldn't be there because he is really queasy when it comes to blood then finally when they were like, “It's a C-section,” my husband was like, “Oh, you've got this.” I was like, “Nope, you're going to be there. Sorry.” I know it was hard for him. I know how he gets. I don't think it was him being weird or anything so I was totally fine with it. I had my miscarriage in April and then I got pregnant later that summer. It was cool– I guess not cool. I thought it was cool when I got pregnant with her daughter. Her due date was the same weekend I had my miscarriage. I was like, Wow. It was interesting. During my miscarriage, my providers were wonderful. My midwife was wonderful. The ER doctor was so great. It was a sad experience, but it was a peaceful experience. I definitely was at peace with it even though it was really sad. I definitely say the driving force with my daughter, there was a lot of panic and anxiety. I would say, I don't know if it's having another child and having a toddler, but I definitely didn't feel as connected to that pregnancy. But again, I have a very active toddler. So one thing though, we didn't find out the gender which was pretty fun. A lot of people thought it was weird and they were like, I like to prepare. I'm like, What do you have to prepare for? I just thought it would be really cool to not find out. I didn't really post about my pregnancy a lot. I think I announced in January and she was born in April. I didn't talk to people about having a home birth because I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to hear people's opinions about it. I remember I had some friends that I was like, I really don't want to talk to you about it. They would ask, “Oh, how was your doctor's appointment?” I was like, “Oh, it was great.” I didn't say anything else because my midwife would come to me. It was so nice that she came to you and I didn't have to worry about getting out the door and the whole family was involved. It was super nice. 20:02 Planning for a home birthAisha: Oh, I remember I told my dad. I was like, “Yeah, I'm going to do a home birth.” He was like, “I don't know. It sounds kind of sketchy. Are you sure?” I was like, “Yes.” He was like, “Don't you want to go to a real doctor?” I don't think my dad was being rude, but I was like, “Dad, it's not a mountain man. It's a real midwife. It's a licensed business. It's a real person. It's not some woman off the street that I'm like, Come birth my baby. She went to midwifery school.” But no, my midwife was amazing. Her name is Liz and she was just so calming. Her voice was just very soft-spoken it felt like, but I was so worried about having a breech birth. Whenever I brought it up, she'd be like, “We're not talking about that. We're not talking about that.” I was like, “What if this baby is breech?” She's like, “We're not talking about that.” I'm like, “Okay, cool.” So when I was pregnant, like I had shared before, I just listened to The VBAC Link. I just listened to The VBAC Link. That's all I listened to. I worked from home at the time just doing computer work and I would just listen to episodes. I would be sobbing. It was for a lawyer and I'd be doing these things and crying just thinking about all of these amazing things that these women went through and how they were able to bring their babies. One thing that I believe I learned from this podcast, so I failed my gestational diabetes test, my glucose test, but I had heard from an episode that it varies from state to state. I was like, Interesting. But my midwife was like, “You just did it by two points or whatever the thing is, so just watch what you eat. Keep a log and let's talk about it.” So that's what I did. She showed no other concerns. She was like, “Just eat more protein”, then I would log my food and at appointments, we'd go over it and she would go, “Oh, see? This is when your sugar goes high. It's because you ate this. Let's try to eat more of this,” and then I tried to stay as active as I could with my toddler. My husband was in school. He left the military and was in school finishing up his bachelor's degree so we live right next to campus. We lived in a basement apartment and at first, I was like, Why? We rented this basement apartment and I was like, Can I legally have a baby here? I was like, Is this allowed? Do I have to tell my rental company? There were these 5 girls who lived above us and I was like, How am I going to do this? Aren't they going to think this is weird if they hear me? But yeah, I just remember this basement apartment. It was pretty tiny. I would just sit in my living room and envision my birth there and be like, Okay, I can do this. 22:51 Breech workshop with Dr. StuAisha: April comes and my midwife had done a workshop with Dr. Stuart. Meagan: Oh, Fischbein. Aisha: Yeah, like 2 months before I gave birth. Meagan: That's awesome. Aisha: I was like, “Oh, so is this a possibility?” We were on state insurance because my husband is a student. There were a couple of things. They covered my midwife, but we would have to pay for the birth because I was a VBAC but my midwives, they are really great where they accept payment plans because they were like, “We don't believe people should tell you where to give birth. If you just pay us $5 a month, that's fine.” We ended up paying it all off because we were like, “That's fine too.” But she told me, she was like, “Well, because you've never given birth vaginally, you wouldn't be able to.” I'm like, “Oh, that sucks,” which is the same thing they told me in Texas. I was like, People breech birth babies all the time.I was like, “Can I transfer hospitals?” They were like, “No, no one will probably take you because you've never given birth vaginally.” I was like, “Okay, that's weird. Whatever.” I was like, “Oh, dang.” My baby was due at the end of April and on April 5th, I started getting contractions. With my son, I never had contractions. I never went into labor. I never had Braxton Hicks. I didn't know how any of that felt so I was like, Oh, this is new. What is going on?Oh, I did have a doula. In Oregon, when you are on state insurance, they do cover a doula so that was really nice. Meagan: Yeah, that's really awesome. Aisha: Yeah. The doula that I had runs the doula program, but I contacted her directly because I was just looking through Facebook groups and she was like, “No, I'll take you on.” She was actually training to become a birthing assistant with my midwife so it was pretty fun. She worked really well with them. 24:57 Labor beginsAisha: Okay, so on April 5th, I start getting contractions. They just tell me to rest. I remember I had a really bad headache so I was like, Oh, maybe I'm dehydrated and maybe that's why this was happening. So I was drinking lots of water and coconut water and trying to eat protein. That night, I remember we were watching Ted Lasso and I was trying to hone in and focus while having contractions. I don't remember anything else. All I remember is Ted Lasso. Then that night at 2:00 AM, my husband ended up calling the midwife because they were picking up. She came and he made this observation when she got there, they slowed down. She checked on me and she was like, “It looks like you're just having false practice labor,” whatever you want to call it. “Just rest up.” I was like, “Okay.”So the next morning, I wake up at about 7:00 AM. Through the night, while I go through contractions and my husband was timing them, I'm moaning through them. I took this course. Sorry, I'm jumping around. I took this course called Pain-free Birth so I just was trying to practice what she had taught in it. I was breathing through riding the wave and all of that. My husband would moan along with me during contractions while he was sleeping and I was like, “You're not helping me.” He was like, “Oh, sorry. I didn't realize what I was doing.” Okay, so then I wake up at 7:00 AM and I take a shower. I just remember I was like, I'm going to curl my hair, but then I was like, I can't do that. It's so interesting how in tune our bodies are and almost how in tune our family is because that week, my toddler slept in until 10:00 AM every day. That day, he slept in until 10:00. Meagan: That's amazing. Aisha: He knew something was going on, right? That morning, I remember I ate. I listened to some Taylor Swift music and just swayed around my kitchen. I turned on Anastasia the movie and laid on my couch and went through my contractions. I labored a lot alone which is what I wanted. I didn't want people at my birth. I didn't want a mom or any relative and I think my mom would be great during a birth, but knowing me, I think if I wasn't progressing, I think I would panic and from what I've learned, your body can shut down and not do it because I would feel the stress like, No one is comfortable. I'm doing this to people. I wanted to labor alone if that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah, it does. You didn't want to be the host of your birth. Aisha: Yeah, and I feel like that's what I would have been. I would have been like, “Does everyone have drinks? Does everyone have snacks? Is everyone comfortable? What does everyone want to watch on TV?” I know me and I was like, I don't want that. So at about 10:00 AM, my husband and my toddler come out of bed. I put on the Peanuts movie for my toddler and I'm just kneeling on my couch which was really sweet. Every time I went through a contraction, my husband was timing them and they were still pretty inconsistent. That morning, I was texting with my doula and keeping her up to date with stuff. My toddler would come over and rub my back or bring me toys and I thought that was really sweet. My husband had a 12:00 class and was like, “Should I go?” I was like, “Do what you want, but probably not.” It was really funny because he was actually watching a video for his class. Have you ever seen– I always forget this actor's name– have you ever seen the show Lost? You know the evil guy, the cult evil guy? Meagan: Yes. I don't know the name. Aisha: He was narrating this video, this video on Marie Curie. Meagan: Curie? The X-ray lady? Aisha: Yes. Meagan: That's so funny because my daughter did the wax. She was Marie Curie for her wax museum for her 2nd grade. Aisha: Yeah, so my husband is watching this video and it's that guy narrating it. It's about her. I'm going through my contractions, focusing, and asking him questions about it. I was like, “What did she do? How did that happen?” I had the Peanuts movie. I had that going on in the background. Yeah. So finally, I'm like, “I'm going to go lay down.” My husband was like, “Okay. I'm going to be there.” I go lie down and all of a sudden, I start getting hot flashes and get really cold. I'm like, “What is happening?” My doula finally called me. She heard me and she was like, “You are in transition.” We didn't realize how far this was happening. I was like, “Maybe we're not communicating,” but we were telling them about the contractions. We were keeping them up to date. I got back in the shower and she was like, “I'll be right there, but you should probably call your midwife.” My husband was trying to figure out my phone. Something happened with my phone and he was like, “I can't open it. I can't open it.” I'm in the shower and he calls the midwives and the one that is not my midwife, the other one who I had met with before and I liked her too, she picked up and listened. She was like, “Okay, we'll send Liz right over. It sounds like something is happening.” I'm in the shower. It just was so funny. I remember being like, I can't do this. I can't do this. I can do this. No, I can't. Yes, I can. Then my husband was trying to talk to me. I keep referencing a lot of pop culture things. Meagan: I love it. Aisha: Do you know that TikTok sound? It's from a movie with Will Ferrell where he's like, “Shut up. Don't talk right now. I'm so scared right now–”Meagan: I don't know if I've seen that. Aisha: Yeah, it must have been trending then, but that was running through my mind. I was like, Shut up. I'm so freaking scared right now. Will Ferrell was going through my mind. Then my husband is just standing at the bathroom door and he's like, “I don't know what to do.” Then I'm like, “I feel like I have to poop. That's what I feel like right now.”31:25 Pushing out an unexpectedly breech babyaisha: I go over to the bathroom and go over to the toilet. I am like, “I can't sit down. What's happening?” I got scared and then all of a sudden, it must have been my water breaking because there was a pop and stuff went everywhere. Like I said, my husband is very sensitive to things so he was like, “Should I come in there and hold you up?” I was like, “No, because I don't need you gagging in my ear because it stinks in here. Please stay right there.” Finally, I don't know the times. I've been told they showed up pretty fast, but you know when it's all happening. You lose the concept of time. My doula shows up. She says that my husband, his name is Logan, was standing there with a towel. He was ready to come in and catch a baby. She said he looked almost like a butler. He was just standing there. She comes in and rubs my back and I was like, “Heidi, I'm so stupid. This is so stupid. Why am I doing this?” Then comes my midwife with all of her stuff. You know what? It is so crazy. That morning, I don't know if this is with all home births, but with my midwife, I had to buy certain things. I had to buy towels and hydrogen peroxide. I had to buy all of the stuff. It had come literally that morning. I wasn't due for 3 weeks. They take me into my bedroom and all of a sudden, I hear them ripping things open, just moving stuff and ripping things open. I'm just over the bed and moaning. One of my biggest regrets is not having a birth photographer because they are all fuzzy and terrible pictures. Then they said I was pushing, but I don't remember pushing at all. I just remember riding those contractions. Then at one point, they asked me. I think it was my doula. She was like, “Aisha, do you want to feel your baby? Do you want to put your hands down and feel your baby?” I said, “Absolutely not. No, I do not,” which I'm kind of glad about because I probably would have felt a foot or something and that would have scared me. I'm leaning over my bed and then like I said, my midwife is a very conservative, meek person, very soft-toned. All of a sudden, I heard her say, “Aisha, I don't want you to panic, but your baby is coming out ass-first.” I was like, “Oh, that's different.” She said afterward when we were talking, she said she saw it and she just leaned back and went, “Hmm.” She took a picture of it and then my husband's perspective was funny because he said he comes and he sees feet and he was like, “What is happening? Why is my baby coming out this way?” She tells me to get on my hands and knees. She gets firm because I don't know what is happening. I get on my hands and my knees beside my bed. She tells me to push and I'm like, “I don't know what you're talking about. I have not been pushing this entire time,” but I must have pushed. Then I heard a splat and I was like, Is that my baby? It was my placenta. It felt out of me.Meagan: What? So baby was born, you turn over, and then the placenta? Or wait– Aisha: Yeah, so I'm on my hands and knees. The baby is born. I hear a splat and I get on my knees. I get up, lean back, look down, and there is a placenta. Meagan: Okay, I was like, Whoa, wait. That can't… My mind was backward because I was like, Well, your husband saw the feet so I'm assuming baby's out.Aisha: Yeah, sorry. The baby was out. Yeah, but I thought it was my baby falling out of me but I'm kind of glad my placenta came out like that because I was more scared to birth my placenta than my actual baby. 35:29 Reviving babyAisha: I turn around and she's pretty limp. My midwife explained that it's pretty common for breech babies to come out not breathing. She was talking to Heidi and she was like, “Get the–” what's it called? An ambu bag? Meagan: For oxygen and stuff? Yeah. Aisha: She's directing Heidi where it is. Right before I had her, we didn't talk about names, but I had a strong impression it was a girl so I approached my husband. I was like, “Hey, I have these three names.” Her name is Margaret. I was like, “Margaret Sage, Margaret Alexis, or Margaret Alexandria. You pick.” He was like, “Margaret Sage.” I was like, “Okay cool. Let's do it.” We don't even know what we're having. Anyway, so she was limp, limp and not breathing. I just look at her and I go, “Oh, it's a boy.” My doula goes, “No, Aisha, it's a girl.” I'm like, “No, it's a boy.” I'm so dazed and then Liz was like, “Aisha, I need your help.” She had been doing mouth-to-mouth. She was like, “I need your help, Aisha. Talk to your baby. Help me with your baby.” So I just start stroking her and holding her head up. Later, Liz said that I don't know if she said this to say this, but I was one of the best assistants that she had. She was shocked because I recently gave birth. She said she recently had a father and he kind of panicked. She said it was kind of cool. I didn't know what was happening. Meagan: Your intuition kicked in. Aisha: Yes. I'm just like, “Hi, hi, hi. Hi, baby.” I'm just holding her head and then they got her breathing and gave her to me. There is a picture of me. You know those candid shots that you see where it's ugly but beautiful? That's what it is. It's ugly, but beautiful. I'm crying and holding her. Blood is everywhere, but I love that picture so much because it represents something that I did. Oh, I skipped this part, but when she was coming out breech, I was like, Those midwives in Texas can suck it. I'm doing this. I was told I can't and I did. That's crazy, then they just put me in my bed and then by protocol, you have to call EMS and EMS came pretty quickly. They came. I remember they asked me, “Oh, do you want to be transferred?” I was like, “No.” They were like, “Baby looks good.” Then they asked my husband, “What's the baby's name?” My husband was like, “I don't know.” I missed this. He had been running around doing things. When my midwife got there, we had street parking so she just parked in the middle of the street and asked my husband to go park her car. Keep in mind that I still have my toddler. I think he napped that day which is crazy. That's wild. Oh my gosh. My baby was born at 12-something. My son woke up at 10:00 and he napped. He woke up to a baby. That's crazy. I never connected that but he was awake for a very small amount. Yeah, that's it. They hung around for a bit and then they left and that was that. Meagan: All was well. Aisha: Yeah, it was crazy. I can see the shock when I share it to people, but it's probably one of the best things I have ever done, the coolest thing. I feel like I'm a pretty average person. When I was filling out my bio, I was like, I'm a stay-at-home mom and I watch a lot of TV. Yeah, then I did it. I had a breech birth. I guess I missed this thing. They weren't tracking that she was breech. They think that maybe she flipped during labor. It's not like I went in planning to have a breech birth. It just happened. Meagan: She obviously wasn't aware when she was like, “Oh, I'm taking a picture of this. This is crazy.” Aisha: Yeah, they actually used the picture of Margot coming out of me. I think I shared it with you guys. She shared it. They actually share it for advertisement. She was like, “Can I use this?” I was like, “Yeah, that's fine.” Meagan: Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. Let me see what picture. I haven't even seen your picture yet. Oh yeah, this is an awesome picture. Aisha: Yeah. Meagan: Yes. Aisha: It's kind of crazy. Meagan: This will be posted on our social media so if you want to go see this really awesome picture, I definitely suggest it. One leg is still inside. Aisha: I think both of them, right? Meagan: One is out and then it looks like one is maybe coming out soon. Aisha: Maybe. Yeah, when I was trying to look for it last night, my husband was like, “I have lots of pictures. They are gross.” I was like, “I know which one I am looking for, you weirdo.” Meagan: Yes, I love it. Thank you for sharing it with us. 40:53 Vaginal breech birth is possibleMeagan: Breech birth is possible. Rebecca Dekker over at Evidence-Based Birth did an episode actually just recently looking at this. It says January 2024 so just recently. We'll make sure to add the link in there. It was with Sara Ailshire I think is how you say her name. They talk about breech birth and it's a long transcript and it's a great podcast so I would highly suggest it. They talked about how the study that was published in 2022 that included the studies from a 10-year period of 2010-2020 and they found that perinatal death rates were 0.6% in planned vaginal breech groups and 0.14% in planned Cesarean breech groups which is kind of crazy to think. It's pretty low. When we talk about death, that's a serious thing to talk about. Those are pretty low. They did find that Cesarean favored the rates, but there was not anywhere near as high as the breech trial. We just know that breech is starting to dissolve, these options. The providers in Texas were like, “No, we don't do this.” I mean, ECVs aren't even offered in a lot of places. Aisha: Oh wow. Meagan: Especially for VBAC. So for this instance, if you were a Cesarean going for a VBAC and having a breech baby to flip, a lot of providers are like, “No, that's not okay.” We actually have a blog about that too showing that's not necessarily true. You have options and we need more providers doing Stu's training like yours going out and learning. I love how coincidental your training was to your birth. Really, really, really cool. Aisha: Yeah, it was crazy. It's interesting that you say that. Now we live in Nebraska because my husband is in graduate school. Nebraska has some pretty weird laws about home birth. They are the ones, I don't know the wording, but you can't have a doctor or a midwife there. You have to have an undergrad– I don't know how to explain it. I wonder if we had a third baby, what do I do? Do I have to tell a provider that I had a breech home birth after Cesarean? Obviously, my kids like to be breech. What do I do? Meagan: There's something about your body that has breech babies. Aisha: And I'm not asking you, that's just something that I think about a lot. I'm not comfortable being in a state that doesn't support what I want when obviously I went through something. I'm obviously not going to do something that harms my child, but I feel like my mental health is important too. I think with my son's birth, it just always makes me sad to think about. It's really hard because right after I had Margot, I met two other women who are onto their second and they have had C-sections and they are like, “I'm just going to do it again. I'm just going to have a C-section. My doctor said that we can attempt but I might not progress.” I just want to shake them like, “You can. Don't listen to that doctor!” But then I feel like it's also important to respect a woman for how she wants to birth. If you want to have a C-section, that's totally fine. I definitely see the benefits in both especially when you have young children. The women who I met who were like, I'm just going to have another repeat C-section, they are not around family. That's hard to plan out. Meagan: It's hard. I think that's one of the things that we want to do at The VBAC Link is give all of the information so when a provider is like, “You could, but it probably wouldn't really happen so we can just go do it easily and schedule it and have a C-section.” We just want you to know actually what the evidence says and that it's actually not true. Here is an option over here. Whether you pick it or not, we here at The VBAC Link support you 150,000% percent, but in the end, we really just want you to know what your options are and not just be told something that's really not true. Aisha: Yeah, whenever I meet women who have had C-sections and they are pregnant again, I always tell them, “The VBAC Link. Do you listen to podcasts? You need to listen to this one. It will help you so much.” I think we don't realize. I was talking about this with my husband recently. We don't realize that you can pick your provider. You don't have to go with somebody that you don't like. Here I was with my son and this midwife– and they just recently changed their base name but it was called Fort Hood, Texas. In the Fort Hood, Texas Spouse Facebook group, people were like, “This provider is terrible. I don't like her.” You could just look up her name and see all of these negative things. You never saw a positive and you just feel like you are stuck with this person like, Oh, she's been doing this for 20-something years. She must know what she is doing. Meagan: I love that you pointed that out. Dr. Fox and I talked about this on an episode. I think it was on our podcast, not his, where we talked about how we have the option to choose but then we also have to respect their option to choose because if they don't feel comfortable supporting this type of birth, that's okay. That's their prerogative then it's up to us to stay or to go and to find if that's the right provider because we can fight for what we want, but we can't make someone change their mind so that's why you are doing your research and looking up those reviews, talking to your people in your community, really having an open discussion with your provider. Most of the time, your provider is going to give you pretty quickly if you are giving open-ended questions. You're going to get the, Oh, that didn't jive with me. That didn't resonate with me, pretty early on. Then even then, even if you have a later situation where you have a provider who was supposedly supportive the whole time and they are changing their tune, again, like she said, you have the ability to choose. You do not have to stay with that person. You do not. You can leave, which is hard. That is very daunting. Aisha: It is. I feel like we are a people-pleasing culture. Meagan: We are. Aisha: We really are and we want to trust our medical professionals because they went to school. They know. I watch Grey's Anatomy. I'm not a doctor. When they tell me my blood pressure, I'm like, Okay, cool. I don't know what that means, but you told me it's good. You want to trust them, especially with something so intimate about being near your private parts and having such a spiritual experience of having a baby. I don't want those people in my birthing space. Yeah. It's not something that I want. Meagan: And a lot of the time, they're not going to want to be in yours either, right? That's what is so important. If we are feeling that way, they might be feeling that way. It's important to read those. I felt that way and I don't like contention. I mean, sometimes you might disagree with that because sometimes on the podcast, we can get sassy but I don't like it and that's how I didn't want to tell him I wanted to leave. I didn't tell him that I didn't like what he was saying or how I was feeling and I stayed then I had a repeat Cesarean instead of fighting for myself and standing up for myself. I stayed. 49:39 Adding to the supportive provider listMeagan: It's not the biggest regret of my life because I feel like that birth specifically is truly what brought me here today in my doula career and in this career, but at the same time, it really wasn't what I wanted and I do believe that I probably would have had a different experience if I would have followed my intuition and gone somewhere else even at 36 weeks. It was the very end. Don't ever hesitate to change once, twice, or even in labor. Do whatever you need to do. Oh my gosh, know that breech is possible. Breech is 100% possible vaginally. Aisha: It is. Meagan: And if you are listening right now and you are like, Yeah, it is because I had a breech birth too, or whatever and you had a breech-supportive provider, will you please email us at info@thevbaclink.com? We want to add these providers to the list. I'm trying to narrow this list down into specific things like vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans, ECVs, and breech birth because we have so many people looking. We have so many people looking and I know they are out there. They exist, but I am just one person here in Utah so we all need your help. If you have providers in and out of the hospital who will support breech, please email us at info@thevbaclink.com so we can add to the list along with Aisha's providers. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today's episode is full of love. Meagan's doula partner, Christin Carlson, joins as co-host today to hear their client, Janelle, share her beautiful VBAC story.Janelle's first baby was determined to stay frank breech even after two ECV attempts. Her water broke on its own before her scheduled date. In prep for her surgery, Janelle unexpectedly experienced vaginal cleansing. Though the surgery went well, it was not the introduction to motherhood Janelle was hoping for. She was also hit hard with postpartum depression. Janelle shares how she found The VBAC Link and became obsessed with all things VBAC prep. Surrounded by the most loving and empowering team, they helped her stay steady when labor was most intense. Even though it was harder than she imagined it would be, Janelle was able to dig deep and achieve the unmedicated VBAC she desired. Vaginal Cleansing ArticlePostpartum Depression ArticleHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 02:40 Janelle's PPD experience07:25 Janelle's stories12:06 Arriving at the hospital14:05 Janelle's C-section17:00 VBAC preparation19:24 Appendicitis and second pregnancy24:22 Going into labor27:35 Laboring at the hospital30:30 Transition34:21 Achieving her VBAC38:47 The power of a supportive partner43:53 What is vaginal cleansing?50:26 Symptoms of postpartum depressionMeagan: Hello, everybody. You guys, today I have a very special episode to my heart because this is one of our own doula clients here in Utah and another even more special thing is that this is my partner, Kristen who ended up attending her birth, is co-hosting. Hello, Christin and Janelle. Janelle: Hello. Christin: Hi. Meagan: How are you guys today? Janelle: So good, so good. Meagan: Before we started recording, we started talking about time and how fast things are going. You guys, I mean I think you probably know if you are pregnant or have a newborn in your arms how fast time goes, but really, holy cow. We were with Janelle, we just talked about, 8 months ago from the time we are recording which is wild to think about. Janelle: So weird. So weird. It's crazy. Christin: It seems like it was a couple of weeks ago. Janelle: Yeah, it's not fair. Meagan: I know. How have things been? How have you been going with postpartum?Janelle: Things have been really good and I think that's one of the things that pushed me to want a VBAC so badly is I was hoping for a better postpartum experience. I had pretty severe postpartum depression with my first baby and I felt like having the VBAC would be some sort of heavenly gateway into not having postpartum depression. In the beginning, that was true, but I ended up still having some of it. Things are good now, though. Meagan: Good. I actually love that you touched on that because I think that sometimes especially after a traumatic Cesarean or a traumatic experience that did lead to postpartum depression or anxiety or anything like that, that can be a big motivator for a different experience. I love that you talked about, “Well, it was a better experience, but I still had this a little bit. I've had to work through that.” I'm glad that you're good now, but even sometimes when we have a different experience, we have similar things. So it's important to recognize that. I love that you just pointed that out. Janelle: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Meagan: Before we get going into the episode, do you have any tips on tackling that the second time around too? How were your feelings about things when you were starting to feel it and see it creep in? 02:40 Janelle's PPD experienceJanelle: Well, with both experiences, it did creep in just like you said, but with my daughter, it felt really dark really fast. She was my first baby and then with my first son, the VBAC, it was kind of a little bit sneaky. I guess just having someone on your support team. For me, it was my husband and I just said, “Look, if you see any of these signs, please say something to me.” It wasn't like we had a code word or anything. He was just really open in his dialogue with me and said, “Hey, I think something is up with you. You are not your normal self.” As soon as he said that, I was like, “Yeah. You're right.” It was really hard to admit because you want to be this strong mom and you want to be there for everyone and be everything that everyone need, but sometimes that's just not how life works. It's literally a chemical imbalance in your body and in your brain. It has nothing to do with your circumstances. Just having someone on your team and on your side to say, “Hey, I love you. Let's get help,” was absolutely integral to helping me get on the other side. Christin: I think it may have helped because you had been through it before so you were aware of the warning signs. That's something I think that we don't realize because I struggled with postpartum depression too but it didn't happen until my third baby so I didn't have any inclination that that was even something that I was going to deal with. I think it's important. We do all of this work to prepare for our VBACs and to prepare for the arrival of a new baby, but sometimes I don't think we educate ourselves on what those warning signs of postpartum depression are because they can be very sneaky. It's not always deep, dark thoughts. Sometimes it's postpartum rage or postpartum anxiety where just you are either extremely emotional or extremely angry all of the time. To have your husband looking out for you or someone on your support team who is keeping an eye out for those things and noticing a shift in the way that you're behaving, I think, is super important. I think that's great that you guys have had this conversation ahead of time. Meagan: Yeah, and we will talk a little bit more about some of those signs and symptoms. Like Christin was saying about how they can differ between rage, anxiety, depression, and the baby blues a little bit more at the end for sure because yeah, I think Christin just nailed it. We focus so heavily, and I think even more sometimes– I don't want to say this as a fact, but sometimes I feel like more as a VBAC mom, we are so hyper-focused on the end result of a vaginal birth that sometimes I feel like we do forget a lot. That's like everybody. I think they are so focused on getting baby here, but VBAC sometimes has to fight harder, search harder, read more, and emotionally work through things a little bit more so yeah, we can forget. Then that creeps in or like Janelle said, it was like boom and darkness came over. We want to know how to handle that so we will talk a little bit more about that in the end. 07:25 Janelle's storiesMeagan: Okay, you guys. I wasn't there, but in our practice, we have something that is like a live timeline that we have so whoever is at the birth can take notes of the timeline and we like to share that with our parents. We were all just sitting there watching it, checking in, and I just remember feeling this utter excitement inside of me for them as I was looking at the notes and following along with Christin's updates. I'm excited to now be here with you both and hear it in a different way. I'm going to turn the time over to you. Janelle: Yes. I'm so excited. I was actually telling Meagan before we started that I was actually fangirling out. I don't know exactly how I got started listening to The VBAC Link, but after I had my daughter, somehow I got onto it and I binged so hard on this podcast. It's just really surreal to be recording with you. So thank you for allowing me to be here. Christin: You've come full circle. Meagan: Full circle. Janelle: I have. Meagan: I love that that happens with The VBAC Link. I love that it's so often that it's like, “I listened every day. You were in my ear and now here I am being in someone else's ear. Janelle: Yeah, yep. So just to all the mamas out there who are preparing, you've got this. You can do this. With all VBACs, of course, there is a Cesarean that starts the story, right? We tried to get pregnant with my daughter for 14 months. We finally got pregnant and the pregnancy was super easy. I was going for a HypnoBirth unmedicated birth. I didn't have a doula. I didn't really have– I don't know. You just don't know what you don't know and as a first-time mom, you think you know, but you don't. You just don't. Meagan: Or we have apps that tell us so we really think we know because the app said so. Janelle: Yes, but then you just don't know until you're in it. I gained 60ish pounds which was a lot, but I never had hypertension or a lot of issues with that. I never ended up with gestational diabetes which I was really grateful for and worried about, but in hindsight, it really wouldn't have been a big deal. At my 36-week appointment, we found out my daughter was breech. Homegirl was freaking stuck. Let me just tell you, she has been stubborn ever since. We tried everything. We decided to do an ECV. We did it at 37 weeks and we just did that. I think a low dose of Fentanyl was the only medication. I was just trying to use my Hypnobirthing to breathe through it. The doctors told me that I was doing really well, but she was just stuck, and that one failed. We tried going to the chiropractor. We tried Spinning Babies. We tried basically everything that I could think of. We did not do acupuncture. That's the only thing that we didn't do and I never hired a doula. I could have done those things, but I didn't. We tried a second ECV at my 38-week appointment. We did that one with a spinal block in the OR because they were like, “Well, sometimes on the second attempt, it can throw you into labor.” So I was like, Okay, well if that happens and we have any problems, they can just do a Cesarean right there. She was very, very stuck in my pelvis and the maternal-fetal medicine doctor actually tried to push her up vaginally and that was unsuccessful and very uncomfortable. Even though I was numb, it was still like, This is weird. I don't know. I don't like this. She just was stuck. She was frank breech, so I was like, Okay. We're just going to go through with the Cesarean. I had 2 more weeks so two days later, I went out to dinner with a friend and then that night when I was sleeping, I got up to pee like you do a million times when you're pregnant at the end and some water was leaking out as I was walking back from the bathroom and I was like, What the crap? I just peed. How is this happening?My water had broken and there was meconium. I knew that it was going to be a little bit of an issue with meconium just because my doctor told me something like they were just worried about meconium with a breech baby. I don't know. I don't know if that's true or evidence-based or not. 12:06 Arriving at the hospitalJanelle: We drove to the hospital and we got there at 5:00. They had to do a COVID test and they cleaned me out. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. Meagan: Like rectally? Janelle: No, like vaginally. They took some sort of– Meagan: They cleaned you out vaginally?Janelle: Yeah, I don't know if it was because of the meconium, but they took some iodine-something and it felt like a membrane sweep. I never have had one of those, but if I could imagine what that was like, that's what it felt like. Meagan: Christin, have you ever seen that? Christin: It's funny that you say that because I had never seen it before until Janelle told me that she had it and I was like, That just sounds so odd, but I actually just saw it at a birth the other day. Meagan: What is it for? I actually don't know what this is. Christin: I had never seen it previously and I thought it was just an anomaly with your birth, Janelle, but I saw it the other day again. Janelle: Do they have a name for it? Meagan: I'm Googling it right now. Christin: They didn't name it. They just used iodine swabs and just cleaned her out. Janelle: Was that also for meconium? Christin: Yeah. Janelle: Okay, interesting. Christin: Now that I think back on it, there was mec but I don't think we knew there was mec until baby was born so I don't know. Janelle: Oh, interesting. Okay. So yeah, that was the most unpleasant experience ever on top of mid-contraction, I was having the COVID swab up my nose so that was really great because this was early 2021. So yeah. Anyway, we waited for the ORand the nurse came in. I asked her, “Can you check me? I know I'm going back there for surgery, but I'm just curious. I'm having contractions. Can you just see if I'm dilating?” She's like, “Yeah, you're at a 4.” So I was like, "Oh, that's kind of nice. My body's actually doing the work here.” I was really excited about that. 14:05 Janelle's C-sectionJanelle: Jumping to the surgery, I was so terrified. I don't know what it was. You're just going through so many emotions. You have to put so much trust in the nurses and the doctors and the anesthesiologists. You have to put so much trust that these people paid attention in med school that they know what they are doing, that they care about you, they care about your baby, and chances are they totally do and they did pay attention and they got good grades, but I just felt nervous as a first-time mom. They jostled me around and the anesthesiologist was really nice and he was just talking to me and telling me everything that was happening. When she was born, I knew it because I felt them yank her out. They had a clear drape, but I couldn't see over it so I was really sad that I couldn't see her. Because of the meconium, they had to take her and they cleaned her up and stuff. I was 16 minutes or something before I got to see her. In hindsight, it's not that long, but it felt like forever. Then I got to see her sweet little face and oh gosh, it was just the most precious thing ever. My husband snuck a video of it. You're not supposed to in the OR, but he snuck a video of it and it's such a treasure for me to look back at the moment that I got to meet her because I didn't get to be the first one to hold her. Yeah. Christin: I love that he did that though so you have the record of that memory. Janelle: Yeah. I never even asked him to. He just knew that I would want that. He's the best. One thing I didn't know about postpartum regardless of if you have a C-section or a vaginal birth, your nurses will push on your abdomen and it hurts like a mother trucker. Let me just tell you. Meagan: Crede-ing. Janelle: It's what? Meagan: It's called Crede-ing. They Crede and they are checking where the uterus is, if it's clamping down, and making sure it's not getting boggy and filling up. Janelle: Yep, and if you're bleeding too much or not enough. It sucked. Then I had really bad postpartum depression. This one was not sneaky. This one was almost immediately. I felt like I bonded really well with my daughter, but there was just some darkness that was in my heart and I couldn't figure out what it was. It took a while. I was actually maybe 6 or 8 weeks at my postpartum appointment and my doctor did the screening. She's like, “Yeah, your score was really not good. Let's get you some medication.” I was like, “Okay.” I was very reluctant, but I saw almost an immediate difference. I had it for a while, but it did help. 17:00 VBAC preparationJanelle: Anyway, so that was my daughter's birth and ever since then, like I said, I was obsessed with The VBAC Link. I knew right away that I wanted a vaginal birth. Actually, come to think of it, right before we went back to surgery, I was talking to the doctors and I was like, “I really want to have another baby after this. Is there any way you guys could make sure that my scar looks really good and I could have more babies vaginally? That's really important to me.” They were like, “Yeah. We will make sure you are taken care of.” I was very grateful for that. What I wanted out of this birth, I don't know if what I told Christin is still what I have on my birth plan that I wrote down, but what I really wanted was a healthy mom, a healthy mindset, and a healthy baby obviously. Those are the minimum, right? Then I wanted baby out of my vagina. I wanted skin-to-skin. I wanted to be the first one to hold baby and I wanted to be fully present and fully included in all of the decisions. I don't know if it was just, yeah. I don't know exactly why that was so important to me at the moment, but it just felt like I didn't want any of this robbed from me. I didn't want any of the experience to be done to me. Do you know what I'm saying? I wanted as few interventions as possible. Those were what I really wanted out of this birth. Is that what you have, Christin?Christin: Yeah, pretty darn close to that. I also have skin-to-skin was super important. Janelle: Yes. Christin: And I think it's worth noting that you wanted to catch and deliver your own baby. You said I wanted to be the first one to hold her– sorry, hold the baby boy– but you also told me that was super important to you. You actually wanted to deliver your child. Janelle: Yes, okay. With my son, my daughter was maybe 20 months old. It was the Sunday before Thanksgiving and I felt some pain in my side. We had been trying for 6 months and something was just wrong. I didn't have a big appetite and it was Thanksgiving dinner at my mom's house and I just didn't feel good. Something intuitively was just wrong and I knew it. My husband was like, “Well, why don't you just try taking an antacid?” I was like, “No. I know something is wrong.” 19:24 Appendicitis and second pregnancyJanelle: We went to the ER and I had appendicitis and I was pregnant. So that was really fun to find out all at the same time. Because I was 3 weeks, 4 days pregnant, I had not even missed my period. I hadn't taken a test, they said that nothing in the surgery would change because baby was still so small. I was like, Okay. Well, that's good. I was really nervous for the surgery and that there were going to be complications afterward, but everything was fine. As soon as I started to heal from surgery, I got so nauseous. I was so sick the whole pregnancy until maybe 25 weeks. That's when it finally started to wean off. Like I said, I lived in VBAC mode. I binged the podcast on the daily. I went on walks. I would listen to it while I was cleaning, driving, naptime, all of the things. I also was very into the Evidence-Based Birth Podcast because I was very curious about water birth and home birth and all of the statistics. My husband actually pulled me aside while I was in crazy VBAC mode as we call it. He was like, “Janelle, I'm just worried if you end up having a C-section, where are you going to be at mentally? Are you going to be okay with this if that ends up being your path?” I was like, “You know what? I really do need to prepare for that too,” because things really can go in any direction with birth. As soon as he said that to me and I started to prepare that way, I just became like, Okay. Whatever happens happens. This is okay. I did have the same VBAC-crazed mindset but I was also okay with things happening. I don't know if that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah, it totally makes sense. I think a lot of the time as we are preparing for that, it is important to note that things can go and still prepare for the other but prepare, prepare, prepare, and then do all of those things while you are preparing so if it doesn't happen, then you don't have to look back and be like, But what if this and what if that? Then you are confident in the way you prepared, but then you know, Well, it could go this way. It's not what I'm going to plan for, but it could go that way and I'm going to be more content because I'm doing everything within my control. Janelle: Yes. At 20 weeks, my insurance changed and I had to find a new provider. That was a whirlwind. I actually found my midwife through The VBAC Link list of providers. Her name is Kira Waters and she is the best. I love her so much. The first thing that I said to her when I interviewed her was, “How do you feel about VBACs?” She said, “I love VBACs!” I was like, “Oh my gosh, okay. Say no more.” Yeah, after we met Kira, then we were on the search for a doula. I came across you guys. I met with Christin and the stars were just aligning like, this is going to work out. This is going to be perfect. I don't know how to explain it. It wasn't like an instant connection, but it was this deep trust that I instantly had in her if that makes sense. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Janelle: It was almost like I'd known her for a long time, but not like a high-school friend. She's my long-lost aunt, I guess. She's full of wisdom. Christin: I'll take it. Meagan: Well, and there is something about a doula. Don't you think? Fun fact, Christin and I actually had the same doula, but there was something about our doula– her name is Robin. She is amazing. I didn't even know her that well. I mean, I knew her through the birth community and stuff but I didn't know every detail about her, but there was this weird sense of confidence where I was like, It's going to be fine. Then her partner, Angie, was also somebody who I was like, I know she has to be in my corner. I just knew that those two people had to be on my team and yeah. It wasn't like I instantly knew them and felt the connection of being childbirth friends, but I was so deeply connected right away and still am to this day to them. Janelle: Mhmm, yep. It's interesting. I'm kind of a private person and I didn't want my mother-in-law or my mom in the birth room, but as soon as I met Christin, I'm like, “Yep. Come to the birth.”24:22 Going into laborJanelle: Let's see, I think it was my 34th or 36th appointment and I met with the OB because if you are with the midwife, they want you to meet with the OB. He did the VBAC calculator. I think it said 47%. It was 47 or 50% chance. It was a pretty moderate chance of success. He was really nice, but I just was like, Eh, I don't really want him to deliver my baby. Let's see. I had gained a similar amount of weight, but again, no hypertension. Everything was pretty much the same to this point other than baby was head down at this time. I was 37 weeks and I went out to dinner with a friend. Fun fact, it was the same restaurant and the same order. That night, I went into labor. Christin: You're onto something. Janelle: It was Zupas. Meagan: I was going to say, what was it? Zupas? Janelle: It was Zupas. Christin: Now we have to get your order too. Meagan: What was your order? Janelle: I want to say it was the pulled pork sandwich. Maybe one of the soups, like the cheesy soup, the Wisconsin…Meagan: The Wisconsin Cauliflower? Janelle: That one, and then the pulled pork sandwich. That's what I ordered both times. So if you want to go into labor…I don't know if that's even tried and true, but it was so interesting. Christin: I'm pretty sure it's not evidence-based. Janelle: No, but for me. Christin: For you it is. Meagan: You've got some good stats. Janelle: Yeah. So I went into labor that night and my husband, I didn't say this before but when I went into labor with my daughter he was like, “No!” because it was so early and he's a gamer so he was up that night playing games on the computer and he was just really tired. The same reaction was had from him this time too. He was like, “No!” Christin: It was early in the morning. Janelle: He was like, “Dang it!” I wanted to labor at home as long as I could so let's see. I think we texted you pretty close to that time. Was it at 4:00 or 5:00? Christin: I got a text at 3:06 AM that you thought your water broke. Janelle: Yeah. So I labored at home in the tub for a while. My husband made me the best peanut butter and jelly sandwich that I ever had in my entire life. I ate a peach. I just hung out in the tub. When I would listen to the podcast before bed, I would listen in the tub and hang out and relax. It was a safe space for me that I was very used to. I hung out there for a long time. It really wasn't that long, but when you're in labor, it feels like a long time. I had my mom come over so she was with our daughter. Once my contractions were 4-5 minutes apart, we were like, Okay. Our hospital is 30-45 minutes away. We should probably head in just to be safe. 27:35 Laboring at the hospitalJanelle: I got admitted around 6:00. Is that what you have, Christin? Christin: Yeah. It was around 6:00, a little bit before 6:00. Janelle: I agreed to be checked at that time. I didn't want a lot of checks because I didn't want to introduce bacteria by having my water being broken, but I was curious about where I was at. They said I was at a 4. I told the nurse beforehand, I was like, “I don't want to know,” but she let it slip. She was like, “Oh, you didn't want to know, huh?” I was like, “No, but that's okay.” Meagan: Isn't that where you were with the first one?Janelle: Yeah, kinda. I was like, Okay, well at least I got this far before. She said I was 50% effaced and -2 station. At this point, my husband and I were kind of clueless because we only had one meeting with Christin. We hadn't gone over counterpressures. We hadn't gone over how he was going to be actively supporting me in birth so we were just like, Okay, now what?Christin: I think we had your second prenatal scheduled for the day after you went into labor. Your baby just decided to beat us to the punch. Janelle: He was so excited. He just wanted to be a part of it. We were really clueless and I started feeling the contractions really intensely. I was not as prepared as I thought I was for contractions. I was second-guessing all of my life decisions because I again even wanted to be unmedicated. I even signed a consent form for the epidural at this point. I was like, Okay, just call it. I'm done.Christin: Christin joined us I think an hour after I got there around 7:00. The second that she stepped in the room, the energy just shifted. I don't know how to explain it. She just brought so much excitement like, I've got this. I got you. It's all right. It's going to be okay.I know she wasn't intending to be my savior, but she kind of was in that moment for energy's sake. I don't think I could have done it if she hadn't walked in with the confidence and the joy that she had, just the excitement for birth, the passion to be there, and it just made such a huge difference in our experience and I just love you so much, Christin. Thank you. Christin: You're going to make me cry. Meagan: She's all emotional. Janelle: We're all just crying here. It's fine. Christin: It's really the best job in the world. It's the best job. Janelle: It's really a sacred space. Like I said, I didn't have my mom or my mother-in-law there. I just wanted it to be very intimate and Christin was so good at honoring how intimate it was. 30:30 TransitionJanelle: Let's see. Let me jump back to the story. Around 10:00, I got a new nurse. This nurse was awesome. Her name was Alisha and she was at St. Mark's. If you ever get Alisha at St. Mark's, she is a godsend. She was great. There were multiple times where Christin, Alisha, my midwife Kira, and my husband were all taking turns doing counterpressures on me. They all synced up and were so harmonious. Okay, so at 10:00, I was still 4 centimeters, 100% effaced. I labored in the tub at this point for a while. It really wasn't that long, but in the moment, it felt like a long time. I loved and hated the tub because I didn't have anything to brace myself on. Michael, my husband, couldn't give me any counterpressure in the tub, but the relief afterward in the water was so amazing. I really loved that and then Christin was like, “I'm going to leave you two alone and have a little moment.” I think you had even brought these little tea light, like the electric tea lights. You had set those up in the bathroom and the lights were dimmed. It was such a special, sacred moment with Michael and I. He just was like, “I really get why you hired her. I love her. She is amazing.” I was like, “Yep. This is why.” He was like, “Yeah, we don't ever want to do birth without her.' Christin: Have more babies. I'll be there. Janelle: Yes. Undecided. But we do, absolutely. Christin: Fair enough. Fair enough. Janelle: That was at 10:00. I was at a 4. Then I got in the bath. At 11:15, I was out of the bath by then. I had a cervical check and I was at a 7. I jumped a lot in that time. I was doing a lot of work. I was 100% effaced and I was at 0 station. I was moving all over in positions. We did the throne position. There was one where I was on hands and knees on the birthbed, but I didn't have the birth ball. At 11:40ish, I was feeling really pushy and I got so emotional. Christin will remember this. I sobbed. It was ugly crying for a good half hour. This is now what we know is transition, but it was rough. I was having Charlie horses and oh, it was just rough. I just was crying a lot. I don't know exactly what was happening, but I just was preparing, I guess, and releasing emotion for the baby to come out. Around 12:30, I was pushing here and there, and around 12:45ish, I started really pushing. Again, at this point, I was in the lithotomy position which is sitting upright how you picture in movies and stuff how people have babies. I was screaming this baby out. I was the loudest person on that floor of the hospital for sure. Meagan: I think there's something to it. I think sometimes roaring your baby out is what people need. Christin: Absolutely. Janelle: I was absolutely a screamer. Christin: It's funny because I don't remember you being loud. Janelle: Oh my gosh, really? Christin: Yeah, I don't remember it. Janelle: Oh, praise be. That's great because I remember at one point– Christin: There's a good chance you weren't as loud as you thought you were. That happens a lot of the time. You think you are very loud and you probably aren't. But I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. A lot of women roar their babies out and it's very powerful and very primal and natural to do so. Janelle: Mhmm, yeah. 34:21 Achieving her VBACJanelle: I remember at one point, there was a nurse that came in. I could tell she was one of the baby nurses because she had the baby cart and stuff. I was in mid-push and I remember saying, “Get the f- out!” I'm pretty sure that everyone in the room thought I was talking about the baby, but I was talking about the nurse. I was like, “Get out!” Meagan: Like, “I don't want you here.” Janelle: I was like, “I don't want anyone in here seeing this. It's ugly.” Meagan: Oh my gosh, that's funny. Janelle: Anyway, so I finally pushed the baby out at 1:30 so I was pushing for an hour. The moment that I got to push him out, I was very emotional and my midwife handed him to me and helped me finish. She delivered the first part of him and I had a little bit of a cervical lip so she was like, “You've got to really push him out,” or maybe it was the shoulder. Was it the shoulder that was stuck? I feel like I'm butchering this last part right now. Christin: No, you didn't have an official shoulder dystocia. He just needed a little extra strength to get the rest of his body out. Janelle: Okay, yeah. That's where we were at. She was like, “You really need to push here.” I just remember like you said, roaring him out. She helped me pull him to my chest and having that warm, gooey, slimy baby was just everything that I could have hoped for. I would not change that for the world. That oxytocin hit that you get from smelling that baby that comes out of you is just unreal. I was so happy that I got to be the first one to hold him and see him. I just am really, really grateful that I had the support that I did because I don't feel like I could have done it without my husband, without Kira our midwife, without that nurse Alisha. Okay, like I said, I am butchering this best part because I forgot to say so many things that I wrote down. Okay, let me back up a little bit. So right around the time that I was crowning, I just felt like my skin was crawling and oxygen was not enough for me. I couldn't get comfortable. I couldn't get on top of my breathing. I was asking for an epidural. I had already signed the consent form, but my nurse Alisha was like, “Oh, the anesthesiologist is busy and by the time he comes, it's going to be too late so sorry.” Sneaky little nurse because she knew what I wanted. I actually asked for a local anesthetic. I was asking for lidocaine or something. I was like, “What do you use to stitch people up? Use that on me because I am struggling here.” My contractions were, Kira told me they were three little ones and then one really, really big one then I would have a 5-minute break. That's how my contractions were up until the end. Like I said, I couldn't get on top of my breath. I remember looking at Christin and my husband. I just couldn't figure it out. There was this moment inside of me that even though I had them there, I had to dig so deep in my own body and in my own soul. I even said a prayer to God and I was like, I have got to have some help here. I cannot push this baby out alone. Can you please send some angels or something to be with me because I can't do it?I got a little bit of a longer break in between contractions and I finally had Christin and Michael help me to get on top of my breathing and that's when I was able to push the baby out. Meagan: It's crazy how breath really is so impactful but then we are always told to hold it, so you've got to find the breath and find the strength and regrasp. Sometimes, that means taking a step back and rebreathing and finding that regrounding. Christin: Yeah. Janelle: It's so hard in the moment. Like I said, you think you know but you don't know until you're there. 38:47 The power of a supportive partnerJanelle: But I do have to say that the second I pulled him out and he was warm and gooey and on my chest, they were trying to arouse him a little bit because he was a little bit slower to take his first couple of breaths, I was just screaming, “I did it! I did it! I did it!” a million times. My husband just said, “I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you.” I actually wanted to say what he told his family. He said, “Today I saw what Janelle was made of and she freaking did it. I'm so proud of her.” The way that he said that about me unprovoked was really sweet. Yeah. So there it is. There's my story. It's choppy. Meagan: No, listen. I love that. I love that. And would you have anything to add, Christin, to that?Christin: I would just say that Janelle went into this whole thing very prepared. She had educated herself and she was very prepared for whatever came at her. She did her work ahead of time. She found a fantastic provider and she knew what she was doing. She knew everything that she needed to know about a VBAC, but at the same time, she was very welcoming to let birth just unfold how it was going to unfold. There was a time. We talked about this a little bit earlier. You got to the hospital. You had been laboring really well at home and contractions had been coming very quickly. You were progressing really well and then you got to the hospital and everything just stopped. That's completely normal. We see that happen all the time in birth where just that chance in scenery and the commotion tends to slow things down a little bit, but that didn't get to you. You just needed to get back into your groove. You got settled back into the hospital and you and Michael had some time together. I don't think we should ever discount those special moments that you have with just your husband. When I step out to give you time in the bathroom, that's not me necessarily trying to take a break myself, it's to give you guys time to help that oxytocin get flowing, to get labor progressing again, and to protect that intimate space. You guys were a phenomenal team. It was incredible to watch the two of you together. Michael was so incredibly supportive. That moment where he leaned down and just said to you, “I'm so proud of you, Janelle,” it was so touching just to watch his love and his pride for you. It was incredible. Janelle: He really is the best. I'm so emotional just thinking about him because I just love him. Obviously, none of my family would be possible without him, but I couldn't do mom life without him and I couldn't do the birth without him. He really was everything. So get yourself somebody who loves you and who loves the ugly parts of you too. Christin: You know, I say this too. I don't think– I mean, moms obviously are going through so much during labor, but I don't think dads are ever given as much credit as they deserve because they are watching someone they love go through the hardest thing they've ever done. While there are things to help mitigate some of that, there is nothing they can do to fix it or take it away and it is emotionally taxing on them. Meagan: I agree. I was just about to say the same thing. As mothers, thinking about your child doing one of the hardest things in their entire life and how they feel. Now, you are not his child, but you are someone he loves probably more than anyone on this earth, and especially at that time, he was feeling those things too and he watched you. He watched you prepare and he even was questioning, “I see how much you want this. How will this affect you if it doesn't go this way?” He was literally taking into consideration that far before the birth even happened thinking about you that deeply. It just is amazing. I think that's one of my personal favorite things about being a doula. Of course, seeing babies being born is just incredible. It's absolutely incredible, but seeing what Christin just described, these two people who love each other more than anything that just brought this human into this life, and seeing them bond and grow and take pride in on another during the support of their baby is just really one of the coolest parts about being a doula. Janelle: When my kids are a little bit older, I think that's what I want to do, but we'll see. Meagan: Yes. Listen, I think that's how a lot of us start. We get inspired by our own births then we find the time in our life when the journey feels right and we take off. I encourage you to. I encourage you to become a doula. Yeah, it's such an amazing journey. 43:53 What is vaginal cleansing?Meagan: I definitely want to touch on the postpartum stuff that we wanted to talk about, but I also found a little article thing on the vaginal cleansing. I just wanted to share. Janelle: Oh, okay. Meagan: It's actually from cochrane.org. This was published in April 2020 4 years ago. We'll make sure to have the link here in the show notes, but I was just curious more about what it was and in one of the articles, it said “vaginal toileting”. I'm like, What? That's weird.Janelle: Odd. Meagan: Yes, toileting is a really strange vocabulary, but maybe in my head, I'm thinking that maybe they are getting rid of– I'm not going there. It's called vaginal cleansing with antiseptic solution before Cesarean delivery to reduce infections after surgery. Janelle: Oh. Meagan: Kind of interesting. I'm not going to go through the whole thing because I really want to get to postpartum, but it says, “What evidence did we find? We searched for new evidence in July of 2019 and in this update, we have included 21 randomized controlled studies involving a total of 7,038 women” –which to men kind of sounds small– “undergoing a Cesarean section.” It goes down and it says, “Cleansing the vagina with antiseptic solution immediately before a Cesarean delivery probably reduces the incidence of post-Cesarean infection of the uterus. 20 trials of 6,918 women showed moderate-certainty evidence” –so they are moderately confident– “that the reduction was seen for both iodine-based solution and chlorhexidine-based solutions.” It says, “The risk of postoperative fever and post-operative wound infection was probably reduced by vaginal cleansing both moderately again.” It goes on even more talking about wound complications and infection of the uterus may be lower in women receiving pre-operative vaginal cleansing with solution. So that is interesting because one of the things for me and maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that meconium was sterile. It's poop, but the reason why they get so worried in the lungs is because it's really thick and tarry poop. If you think about our lungs and tarry poop, right? That's what my understanding was. It was more of that versus it was toxic to them but maybe I don't know. Maybe I need to research my meconium evidence. Do you know, Christin?Christin: I don't. Does that study say that they do it specifically related to meconium or just in prep for a C-section? Meagan: Just in prep for the C-section. When you guys were talking about the relation to meconium, it just made me think because I thought that meconium was okay. It doesn't really talk about it here at all. It did say that they did not observe any difference between groups of women with ruptured membranes and women with in-tact membranes which to me says– because in-tact membranes mean no meconium, right? Janelle: Right, no. Meagan: Yeah. They wouldn't know or it wouldn't be present, so it's interesting. It's interesting. Janelle: Yeah, interesting. Christin: It must have just been a coincidence with your C-section and meconium being present. Like I said, the one that I just saw– it might have been a week ago. Meagan: It ended in a Cesarean? Christin: Yeah, it was for a C-section, but I don't think they knew that meconium was present at the time that they did the cleansing or the vaginal toileting I guess that we are calling it. Janelle: Vaginal toileting. That sounds so gross. Meagan: Vaginal toileting, I know. This article says vaginal cleansing specifically, but yeah. Janelle: I prefer that. Meagan: There was another article that talked about the effects of vaginal douching and another article that talked about the effects of vaginal toileting before a Cesarean. Janelle: I'm not a fan regardless. Meagan: Yeah. It's so interesting. I honestly have never seen that. I mean, it was 4 years ago so maybe some places are catching up. I mean, I don't know. Anyway, moderate. It may. It may not. It's not complete. But anyway, there was that. I just had to throw that in because that was a big question. Janelle: Yes and touching on that, I think maybe it's okay to decline that and I would have declined that had I known that was what was going to happen to me because it very much happened to me.Christin: Yeah. Absolutely. Meagan: Yeah and it wasn't discussed. You still didn't even know the reason right now. You were still processing. Those are the types of things that as those things are happening, you can stop and say, “Hey, whoa. What is the evidence on this?” You can ask about that. Or, “Hey, can you tell me the pros and cons here because I don't know if I want this?” Then again, it's ultimately up to you to choose if you want that. Now, if you're not expecting a Cesarean and all of a sudden they are doing this, that might be a red flag to start asking questions because they may be mentally on the other side of the wall preparing you for a Cesarean that you are not aware of. Christin: Yeah, I think this is a good example of just in general how much they don't let you know how much is actually voluntary. A lot of times, the way they phrase things is, “Okay, I'm doing this to prepare for this or I'm going to do this” without letting you know, “Hey, if you don't want this, we don't have to do this.” Janelle: Right. Christin: So I think that happens with a lot of things, especially as a first-time mom, you don't know. You don't know what is– Janelle: Protocol. Christin: What you have to consent to and what is protocol and even if it is protocol, you can still decline it. You don't know a lot of that stuff. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we'll be quick and we'll include this link in there. 50:26 Symptoms of postpartum depressionMeagan: This is from the Mayo Clinic. It talks about the different symptoms of postpartum depression. We talk about baby blues. I'm just going to talk about this really fast. I encourage everyone to go click on it. But baby blues symptoms may include things like mood swings, anxiety, sadness, irritability, feeling overwhelmed, reduced concentration, appetite problems, and even crying. No, postpartum depression symptoms they have listed as depressed mood or severe mood swings, crying too much, difficulty bonding with your baby, withdrawing from family and friends, overall tiredness, hopelessness, feeling worthless, restlessness, super anxiety, and stuff like that. Postpartum psychosis, getting confused and lost. A lot of the time, people with postpartum psychosis will be mid-thought and then they just stop and they literally have no idea what's going on. They're very confused. Having obsessive thoughts about your baby. Hallucinating kind of sometimes goes into that feeling very confused. Not sleeping or having too much energy. Almost feeling like you're so exhausted but you are really, really, really high. Does that make sense on energy? Making attempts to harm yourself or your baby and then there is more. So when to see a doctor— if it goes past 2 weeks after your baby is born, you are noticing it getting worse. Your partner is noticing it getting worse. It is making it harder on you to physically take care of your baby or yourself and things like that. All good things to know and be aware of. Yes, like Janelle said, it is very hard to admit sometimes because we are in it, but get that supportive team. This is also a really great conversation to have prior to having a baby even if you have never had a baby before or never had any of these symptoms before to talk about it and create a plan for if these symptoms are coming in, what to do, what you want to do while you are in a different space. All right, I just ran really quickly through that because I know our time is up, but definitely check that out. Women of strength, know that it is okay to ask for help. It is okay. Janelle: Yes. I agree 100%. Christin: Absolutely. Meagan: Thank you guys so much for joining me today. It was such a pleasure. I loved seeing the emotion, the waterworks, the smiles, the uncontrolled laughter. It just was so much fun and I absolutely adore you both. Janelle: Aw, I love you. Thank you so much for having me. I love you, Christin. I love you, Meagan. Christin: Love you too. Meagan: Love you. Christin: Thank you so much, Megan. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Jenny's story is one of pure gratitude and joy. She is so grateful to be a mother, for the miracle of her pregnancies, for a breech baby who flipped late in her second pregnancy, for the chance to experience labor, and for a beautiful, successful VBAC. Jenny talks about all of the ways she prepped and how she even had to travel over a mountain pass during a snowstorm while in labor to get to her VBAC-supportive provider. Meagan shares some statistics about breech birth and why we so badly need more providers trained in vaginal breech delivery.A long-time listener of The VBAC Link Podcast, Jenny shares her story with so much joy hoping to inspire other Women of Strength just as she was inspired by so many others. PubMed Article: Risk of Vaginal Breech Birth vs. Planned CesareanHeads Up DocumentaryInformed Pregnancy - code: vbaclink424Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 02:58 Jenny's first pregnancy with gestational diabetes06:10 Low amniotic fluid, breech presentation, and a C-section10:22 Healing in different ways14:16 Getting pregnant again and doing all of the VBAC prep22:52 Gestational diabetes test27:59 Breech at 34 weeks32:33 A head-down baby35:11 Traveling the mountain pass in a snowstorm39:43 Checking into the hospital45:42 Fetal ejection reflex49:20 Pushing out baby and postpartum blood loss57:10 Jenny's advice for breech mamas1:00:22 Statistics on vaginal birth versus planned Cesarean for breechMeagan: Hey, hey. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast and we have another amazing episode for you today. We have our friend, Jenny. Hello, Jenny. Jenny: Hi. Meagan: How are you today?Jenny: I'm good. I'm so excited. This is just– I am reeling actually that this is actually happening today. Meagan: I am so excited that it is. You know, it's so fun to get submissions in and then when we send them out, people are like, “Wait, what? Really?” Jenny: That is exactly how I felt. I was like, “This is never going to happen, but I'm just going to go for it. I'm just going to submit it.” I mean, The VBAC Link was such a huge part of my whole story and just to be on here and hopefully share something inspirational with somebody else, hopefully it helps somebody. That's my goal today. Meagan: It will. It's absolutely going to. The whole podcast, sorry if you guys hear any noise in the background by the way. I'm getting a new furnace today and he's installing it downstairs literally below me. So sorry if there's any extra background noise. But this podcast is literally something that I wish so badly that I had when I was going through my VBAC. Obviously, that's one of the reasons why we were inspired to create it, but every single story, even though they all might have similarities or even be in similar places, they are so different and unique and I love that. I love that almost 300 episodes in, we can prove that every birth is different. It's true. Every birth is different and you went through a lot with your births. I mean, I've got her list right here of things. You guys, this is going to be a jam-packed episode. She's got gestational diabetes, breech, advanced maternal age, and trusting the process. We're going to talk about traveling literally over a mountain pass. She drove over a mountain pass to find what she needed so I'm so excited to dive into your episode in just one minute after the intro. 02:58 Jenny's first pregnancy with gestational diabetesMeagan: Okay, Jenny. Here we go. You are– are you ready? Are you ready? She is dancing in the background. You can't see her but she is literally dancing. You can see she is so excited to share this amazing story with you. Jenny: I am so ready. Okay, so let me go back four years to my C-section baby. I can't believe it's been that long. Being a mom was never in the cards for me. I'm just going to start out by saying that. My husband and I, we had been married for 15 years. We went on this fabulous cruise and we were just having the time of our lives. We had a conversation that if I was past 30, it just wasn't going to happen for us and that was okay. So we never planned to have babies and then we had the most wonderful surprise of our whole lives. One day– I don't even know it had been since I had my period so I was like, “Oh, I'll just take a test.” He saw it and was like, “What is this?” I said, “I'm 98% positive that it's going to be negative. I just do this sometimes. It's fine.” I get out of the bathroom with this blazingly positive test and he's like, “No way. I don't believe that.” So I had to go the doctor and prove to him that I was. Anyway, I loved being pregnant. It was so incredible. The miracle of just growing a baby is beyond words. Just that first flutter to knowing that you are creating a human inside of you to the first ultrasound– anyway. I started listening to “The Birth Hour” and I went down the rabbit hole. I love it so much because like you were saying before, it shows you so much about the differences. I didn't know what I didn't know, so it was just an education in itself. I went down the rabbit hole and I am such a birth nerd now. I had no idea. When I found out I was pregnant, the first thing that came to my mind was, “I have to give birth. I'm so scared,” because of all the fear. We get so much media fear. You see all the people screaming and pushing. It just looked traumatizing then I remembered I had seen The Business of Being Born and I was like, “No.” I have always been this closet hippie. I was like, “No. I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it right.” I found myself at 28 weeks. We did a gestational diabetes test and I walked into the doctor's office and she was like, “You have gestational diabetes.” I was like, “No I don't. No, I don't.” She was like, “Yeah, you do.” She was like, “You are going to give birth at 39 weeks here. You are going to be induced. You will give birth on your back. You will do this. You will do this.” The language she used with me was so– I felt so defeated and I was only 28 weeks. I was so disappointed and it was a midwife. It was a midwife practicing under a hospital OB practice. But I live in a really small town, so it was the only midwife I could find really. Home birth wasn't an option for me. We do have a home birth midwife, but it wasn't affordable at the time. 06:10 Low amniotic fluid, breech presentation, and a C-sectionJenny: It turns out that I had low amniotic fluid and you know, they send you in for all of these screenings and tests once you know you have gestational diabetes. They were really concerned about it one time when I went in and they were like, “I don't see any amniotic fluid, like any.” They actually kept me overnight and pumped me full of saline.Meagan: A bolus?Jenny: I was drinking water. Yeah, it was crazy. They checked the next morning and they said, “Yeah, you still don't have any amniotic fluid so we're going to send you to an MFM over the mountains,” which is about an hour and a half away in the city. When I got over, the MFM walked into the room. She didn't even say hi to me. I was 34 weeks at the time and she was like, “We're keeping you here. You're going to have this baby. You're not going to leave this hospital until you do.” She hadn't even talked to me. She never said, “Hello.” I mean, she just looked at my chart. She didn't do any tests on me. I was just blown away by how she talked to me. I was just like, “Are you kidding? Hi. I'm a person.” The did the test right there and then. It turns out the city doctor and their tests are so much better. Based on the total amount of amniotic fluid, they released me that day. As I was walking out the door, she was like, “By the way, I'll see you back here for your delivery because your baby is breech and you're not going to have her naturally.” I was just like, “Okay. I'll show you. I'm going to flip this baby.”Anyway, I went down the rabbit hole. I did everything. I even signed up for the ECV. I don't want to traumatize anybody, but there were three people pushing on my belly trying to get that baby to turn and she didn't budge. She was there. I did have some lower amniotic fluid.Meagan: That can be a sign too if baby really, really, really isn't budging that's usually a sign that an ECV– and if it's extremely painful, sometimes the ECV just isn't going to be successful and sometimes we have to trust those little babes, right? There is a reason why. Jenny: Mhmm. Mhmm. I totally agree with you too. I even was mourning the loss this whole time because I so badly wanted to give birth just to experience it. I don't know. It's an innate woman thing. Men can't do it. It's something that I never experienced in my life. What else can we go through in our lives that you have to wait until you're an adult to feel? It was just this phenomenon. I was so curious about it and I wasn't even getting the opportunity. I was telling a nurse about it one day when I was getting a test done, “I just want the chance.” She was like, “Oh, honey. You don't want to ruin your cervix by pushing out a breech baby.” I was like, “Oh, so I would break myself?” I didn't say anything because at the time, I was this pushover. I was just like, “I'll do whatever,” but inside, I was dying. I just wanted the chance at everything. So I got to the point where I just walked into the OR with the MFM because she does five of them a day and I trusted her more than I trusted our small-town hospital. Jenny: The C-section was uneventful. It was really easy. We did the labor baby dance before we went in there and then I saw her come out of my belly and I was thinking, “I don't know this baby.” I felt disconnected but at the same time, I was overjoyed. I cried because they took her right over to the warmer. The anesthesiologist was right by my head and she was like, “Why are you crying? Are you okay? Are you in pain?” I was like, “No, that's my baby and I can't hold her and I'm right here.” The didn't tie me down. Nothing was traumatic. I was very prepared. Meagan: They just didn't bring her over. Jenny: No, I was separated. They were weighing her and laughing about how she was and I was trying to see her. Anyway, it's just not natural. I mean, it's just not how you want to have your baby. They did put her on my chest and everything was great. 10:22 Healing in different waysJenny: Fast forward six months, I was done with it. I was like, “Maybe we'll only have one. Maybe this will be it.” We weren't planning on having a baby anyway and we were just loving being in that baby nest. COVID started and talk about a crazy time. I definitely suffered a lot from postpartum anxiety. I had a lot of expectations maybe about motherhood and stuff. I really learned a lot. The transformation to motherhood is like a phoenix rising from the ashes as a total personality makeover. You're just coming out of this, “This is who I was and this is who I'm becoming and this is what I'm learning.” Kids really teach you that, don't they? They teach you how to fight for yourself and fight for them if you can't fight for yourself, and I just found that postpartum is harder than it should be. We don't have the support we have and it really, yeah. It made me go into a deep dive of what was going on with me. I started listening to The VBAC Link actually. I found it one day when I was listening to a “Birth Hour” podcast. It was six months and I was like, “You know, I'm just going to listen.” I was like, “I love this. I enjoy it,” but I couldn't relate to it anymore. I searched VBAC on Spotify and you were the first person that came up– you and Meagan at the time or, you and Julie. I was like, “This is me.” I could connect to all of the stories because women were sharing the same feelings that I felt and the same things so thank you so much. It was inspirational to feel like, “I can do this. I can do this again.” I remember even talking to the OB when she was stitching me up in the OR. I was like, “I can have a VBAC, right?”At the time, I wasn't really planning it or whatever and she was like, “I'm doing the double stitch, don't worry. You are a good candidate.” I was like, “Okay, that's cool.” It was so far out but just listening to the stories and knowing that I could do it, it was like, “I could do this again.” But I needed to listen for a long time to feel like I was ready and stuff. A lot of your episodes talked about working through past trauma so I started doing that. I started EMDR. I did pelvic floor physical therapy and I just want to talk about that for a minute because I cannot believe how ashamed I was to do it I guess maybe. I just want to say that really quick because I have a vaginismus and that's when your muscles involuntary close into your vagina and it's because of past trauma. So doing EMDR coupled with the pelvic floor physical therapy was really something that was so useful and I was so ashamed to do it because I've had it for years and I remember my GP suggesting it one time and I was like, “Absolutely not. I'm not having anybody touch me.” I just wasn't ready. Meagan: You're vulnerable. Jenny: It is. I was so ashamed and I don't know why. I was talking to my pelvic floor PT about it. It was the first session I had with her. I was like, “I was so ashamed and I'm ready now.” She was like, “I can tell you are ready.” It was so healing to go there and to work through some of that. While it never got better for me, I know how to work with my body now and that kind of comes into play with my vaginal birth because in a way, I was a little bit relieved. Sometimes when I thought about it, I was looking at the silver linings of the C-section. You just walk right in. I was also thinking that I wouldn't have to deal with this problem that I was really afraid of having. 14:16 Getting pregnant again and doing all of the VBAC prepJenny: So anyway, big plug for pelvic floor physical therapy. Since I had gestational diabetes, I read Lily Nichols' book. I just listened to the episode on her. She is amazing. I can't believe I didn't know about her before. I had heard her on another podcast and I just thought, “I need to read this book.” She is amazing. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny: There are so many amazing birth workers out there– her and Rebecca Dekker from the “Evidence-Based Birth Podcast” and the “Down to Birth Podcast”. All of those people taught me something very unique and special about birth. It's just this education, right? All of this knowledge and trust that we really have to get. We have to work through some of our things– traumas or whatever it is. Things that culturally have been accepted in our mind about birth and we get to this point where all of a sudden, I was excited. I was like, “Maybe I could do this again.” I did all of the things. I started eating eggs, Vitamin D, and magnesium and taking the protein supplement, the collagen powder. I even went non-toxic for my cosmetics and my house care. I started this. I heard this girl's birth story. Her name is Bae. She is from Australia. She does this whole program– Core and Floor Restore. I loved her birth episode. I listened to her. I went to her website. She has this whole program on how to help your pelvic floor and how to exercise post-birth. The way she talks to women in there, she is like, “Do you. You do you. Don't push it. Don't force something that you can't do. If you can't do this exercise right now, modify it so that you can.” It was just this education of how to trust your body, how to trust birth, how to–Meagan: Trust our minds, our hearts, and our gut. Jenny: Yes, that's part of it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, all of this transformation got me to the point where I was like, “I have to be a doula.” It wasn't in the cards for me to be a birth doula even though I am a huge nerd. I have to have a scheduled life. Meagan: Maybe postpartum? Jenny: Yes. Yes. I was like, “I want to be a doula, but I will be a postpartum doula.” I actually really love helping women work through some of these things that were so transformational to me. Just overcoming some things that you didn't know about yourself but you are forced to face in motherhood, so I became a postpartum doula and it is incredible. I love it so much. Then I decided I was ready. I was ready to have this second baby. I was ready to have my VBAC and I did a deep dive into providers because that was what you told me to do. I needed to know if I could do this and so I went to my hometown hospital and I was like, “Hey. Can I have a VBAC here?” They were like, “Absolutely not. We will schedule you for a C-section at 39 weeks so that you don't go into spontaneous labor.” I was like, “Okay.” So I went to the midwife and I was like, “Hey, can I have a VBAC here?” She said, “Well, I could support you but I shouldn't. I don't have the resources. I would want to support you, but ultimately, I shouldn't.” So I was like, “Okay. Okay.” I was like, “I've already established myself at this big hospital over the mountains. I'm going to ask them.” I went to them and they were like, “Yeah, we'll support you.” They had this outlying hospital in the mountains. It is absolutely beautiful, these giant windows looking out over the Pacific Northwest and I'm telling you, I live in the best part of the country but it's really bad so don't move here. That's for anybody that's thinking about moving here because we like it being a small town. I had my heart set on this beautiful outlier hospital. I called them. I'm getting ahead of myself. I had a conversation with my husband after I found them. I was like, “Hey, we should have a second.” He was like, “I don't know. It's really hard. We're older now.” I was 35 at the time. He was actually 44. We have a pretty big age gap. We weren't going to do it in the first place so we had some big conversations. I was like, “Okay. Let's just try for 6 months and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. It wasn't meant to be.” We have a really strong faith so we were just like, “Maybe we weren't meant to have it.” It was really fun actually trying instead of trying to prevent pregnancy. I had never been in that boat oddly enough having a baby and stuff. But it was really hard and I was trying to visualize conception. I was like, “It seems impossible how it all happens.” Meagan: Timing and everything. It's amazing. It's amazing. Jenny: It's incredible just visualizing it all. It's incredible how it can actually happen. At the time, I was thinking, “Man, it's not going to happen.” Five months went by and I was doing all of the testing. I was making sure and it was really fun to nerd out on this side of it beyond the total planning side of it. I love that part. Yeah. Finally, one day seven, six days after I ovulated, I felt all of this cramping and I was like, “Maybe this is the implantation.” I think five days after that, I tested and I had the tiniest, faintest line. I was like, “Holy crap.” I did not think it was going to happen. It was just so amazing. I kept it to myself all day. It was my little secret except I went in and told my little one. She was three at the time. I went over and I was like, “Hey, you're going to be a big sister.” She looked at me and I was like, “But keep it quiet for a day.” Meagan: Don't tell anybody. Jenny: I wanted to take the test the next day that said you are pregnant because I didn't want the same reaction from my husband the second time. I was like, “I'm going to give him the test that says, ‘You are pregnant'.” So I did. I did. I gave him the test and he was like, “Oh my goodness!” Actually, I had her give it to him the next day. It was so cool. It was just this sweet little moment. My age really concerned me. I thought I would be so chill because the first pregnancy was like, “Whatever, I didn't plan this. Whatever happens.” With the second one, I had the fear in me that my age was against me. His age is against me now.I spent more time than I wanted and I regret feeling not anxious but just disconnected. I was really afraid to connect to this pregnancy because I know a lot can happen in early pregnancy and I really want to say that to other people who might have the same feelings that you are not alone in feeling that way because it is really scary. I got to my 20-week ultrasound and I was holding my breath the whole time she was doing the test.  She was looking and looking. She was being really fast and really efficient. They actually asked us to leave the room and go wait out in the lobby for the doctor to come get you. I was like, “This doesn't sound good. I don't think this is right.” I was so anxious and the doctor just walked up to us casually in the lobby and was like, “Everything looks good. See you guys later.” Nothing was wrong. I started bawling and I could not stop sobbing for so long. I'm not really a crier either. It was the confirmation that everything is going to be okay and we did it. I can't believe it. It's so hard to get pregnant and then everything is going good and stuff. I was really excited about that. I was also really hyper-aware of her positioning because obviously, I had this past breech. So from 20 weeks on, I was legit obsessed with sitting upright, leaning forward. All the time, I was turning my chairs around. I was never reclining on my couch. Even in my car, I was sitting straight up. I was like, “I'm uncomfortable 100% of the time.” I was trying really hard not to have a breech baby because even at my 20-week ultrasound, they looked and were like, “Yeah, she's breech but anything can happen.” I was like, “I know, whatever.” 22:52 Gestational diabetes testJenny: I was doing all of the things, right? Spinning Babies, I was going to acupuncture. I was going to pelvic floor physical therapy, the chiropractor, all of it. I was chugging along. At 26 weeks, I get my gestational diabetes test. I talk to my midwife about it and she was like, “Yeah, we can just do the two-hour test because we know you had it last time. You might have it again this time.” I was like, “Okay. I think that's a good idea.” I didn't mention this before, but with my first test, my midwife wouldn't even let me retest. She just said, “You have diabetes.” It was just the one-hour screening. It's not a diagnostic, but I got the diagnosis from it anyway. I was like, “Why wouldn't you let me retest?” She said, “Your number, I just felt like you have diabetes.” I don't know. I was pretty upset about that. They wouldn't even let me try. I know other people who retest all the time and they are negative with the three-hour test. It didn't make sense to me. So anyway, I went into this one pretty informed. I was like, “Hey, I want the three-hour test. I want to know if I have it,” because if you have it, it's not a good thing and you really want to control it. My first one was diet-controlled. She ended up being 6 pounds, 9 ounces. Meagan: Little. Jenny: She was tiny and she was 39 and 6 when she was born. I wouldn't let them take her earlier than that even though they wanted to. I was like, “No.” They were like, “We won't let you go to 40.” I was like, “Okay. You can have her at 39 and 6 then.” I was so mad at them. Anyway, I digress. Jenny: Okay, so I did the two-hour test. I felt so sick. I was like, “For sure, I have it again.” I had been eating a gestational diabetes diet the whole time. I was like, “I'm just going to take care of my body.” I felt amazing taking care of my body like that so it's really kind of a blessing in disguise having it. I would not say that having been diagnosed with it the first time. I thought that I was a failure and whatever, but you're not. Meagan: No. It just happens. Jenny: Yeah, it happens. My mom has diabetes. I shouldn't be surprised, but I was healthy and I was thinking that it would never happen to me and it did. So anyway, I took the test and it turned out negative. I couldn't believe it so whatever Lily Nichols did in her book, I did all of the things that she told me to and it worked so I'm just going to give a shoutout to her. Thank you because you helped me have my VBAC and I couldn't be more grateful for just not having it because then I kind of ate whatever I wanted. It was great. I gained a little weight and it was really fun. It was the opposite of my first pregnancy. I was carefree and I had a lot more flexibility to do things I really wanted. Anyway, that was really cool. But also at my 26-week appointment, my midwife felt my belly and she was like, “You know, your baby is frank breech.” She was like, “I'm just saying that. There is obviously plenty of time for it to turn, but we want to see a head-down baby by 30-32 weeks.” I need to back up just for a second. I wasn't able to use the midwives that I wanted at that outlier hospital from the city because I chose to do a bloodless program and they don't support that even in the outlier hospital. It is only the ones in the city. It was an hour and a half drive through city traffic and a mountain pass. I was due in February and our mountain pass is no joke. It closes for multiple days during the winter a lot of times, so going that far was part of our conversation in having a second. I was like, “I'm not having a VBAC here in town. Can you drive me?” He was like, “I'm not scared. Let's do it.” That comes into play later, but it was a lot. I had to use the bloodless program in the city which meant traffic, snow, ice, all of it. They chose to support me which was great. I found them and I'm grateful that they were but they weren't the dream team as far as being really supportive. I would say they were tolerant of me being there. Meagan: Tolerant of you going for it but not super on board. Jenny: Yeah, exactly. They were like, “Yeah, this is great.” They weren't saying, “This is what we need to see.” They weren't saying, “You need to be in spontaneous labor by 39 weeks.” I was drilling them. I was doing all of the things. I was like, “What do you require of me? Can I go to 42 weeks? I want to know.” I had never felt a contraction before so it was honestly like, I knew I went to 40 with my first so I'm definitely going to go to that with my second at least I thought. I did all of the things to try and flip her obviously when they said that, but at 35 and 6, she was still breech. Actually, it was 34 weeks. I had even gone to acupuncture and felt her physically flip. She did the flip in my belly. I'm not joking. I felt her move the entire way down head down. I woke up in the morning and she was breech again. I was like, “Okay. She can do it. I know this baby can do it.” 27:59 Breech at 34 weeksJenny: I kept doing all of the things until 34 weeks which is when most babies are head down. I was like, “You know what? I've listened to enough podcasts and stuff to know that I needed to let some things go.” I regretted a lot about my first birth. I hoped until the last minute that I was walking into the OR that she was going to flip and she didn't. I was like, “You know what? I want to enjoy this pregnancy. I don't want to feel like I'm doing all of the inversions of my life.” I was doing headstands in my hot tub. I was doing everything and I was like, “I'm going to let this go.” I chose to let this go at 34 weeks and I was like, “I'm going to enjoy this whether I have a C-section or not even though I really want a VBAC.” My faith is a really big part of that because I was just praying, “I believe so much that our bodies are incredible and they were made for this.” And to not have the chance to even try is heartbreaking. It's sad that we don't have breech providers because these OBs are professionals. They are professional. They get trained for years in how to do this and that we don't even have a chance with them boggles my mind a little bit. Meagan: I know. Jenny: Anyway, I've heard a lot about just having the chance to experience what women are made to do and just feel. Even if it's hard and even if it's painful and whatever, I just wanted the chance. I found this renegade OB in a different city. He was willing to do this ECV on me because I heard he had a good success rate. I was like, “I'm going to do it again. I don't care. I'm just going to try.” At 35 and 6, I binged on the Evidence-Based Birth Podcast because she has a couple about VBAC and she has a couple of episodes about birth. I wanted all of the stats in my head. I was like, “They are not going to deny me this ECV because I have this scar on my uterus.” I was dead-set. I knew ACOG by this point. I walked in and I was like, “I'm going to do this. Let's do this.” He was like, “Okay. This girl knows her stuff,” because he was like, “I probably shouldn't do it because of the C-section.” I was like, “No, ACOG recommends that I am not a risk.” I knew and he was like, “Girl, you know your stuff. All right. You know the risks. Let's try it.” Meagan: That is so interesting that he was trying to scare you out of it but because you knew the stats, he was willing to do it, but if you didn't know the stats, what would have happened?Jenny: Right? I wonder and I don't think it's fair that women have to become experts in the field that's not our job. Our job is to grow this beautiful baby in bliss and instead, we've got to fight for everything, something that we should be able to do. 32:33 A head-down babyJenny: I get in there and he puts the ultrasound machine on my belly. As I was driving myself there, I was thinking, “Man, these kicks are weird.” They were fluttering up here and I was like, “That's so weird.” It was under my rib instead of down below. I thought, “That's really weird.” He put the ultrasound machine and he was looking right down where my cervix was because that's where he should see feet and he laughed and he was like, “That's a head. Your baby is head-down.” I was like, “No, it's not. I felt her head last night right under my ribs.” He was like, “No, her head has moved.” I poked, poked, poked and I was like, “Are you kidding me?!” I hit him and was like, “You're kidding me, right?” He was like, “No, girl. You've got a head down baby.” I was like, “I've never felt this before! I've never had a head down baby!”I was in my second pregnancy, 36 weeks along pretty much and I had never had a head-down baby so I just want to say to all of the breech mamas out there, it can happen and maybe it can't. I don't know. I was convinced that I grew breech babies at that point because I was pretty far along there. Anyway, so that was the biggest surprise of my whole pregnancy. At that point, I was like, “I've got to find a doula. I've got to take a birth class. I've got to do all of these things.” I had been holding out for this opportunity to have a chance and now I had it. It was the most incredible, freeing feeling. When I was driving home, I was just like, “I can't believe it!” I was yelling in the car. I called my sister right away, “I have a head down baby!” She was like, “Okay.” It's just not a big deal to people. It was just so thrilling to feel like I could get the chance. So anyway, I took this birth class that B does from Core and Floor Restore and she talks a lot about physiological birth in it and how the movements that we make and the sensations that we feel all help in this balancing act of getting our babies out. I was just like, “I've got to try. I've got to try. I need the chance. I'm getting the chance now and now I've got to try.” So I did all of the dates and I did all of the classes. At 39 weeks, I stopped work and I just lived it up. I was just laying around and I was just having a good old time with my baby girl. That was one day that I had and the next day, I put her down for a nap. 35:11 Traveling the mountain pass in a snowstormJenny: I was at 39 and 4. I told my baby as I put my toddler down for a nap, I was like, “You know, I'm ready. I'm ready to see you. I've got all my meals in the freezer. I've done the work. I feel good.” Meagan: You were prepared. Jenny: I'm a postpartum doula. I had my ducks in a row and then my girl was just starting to sleep and I felt my first contraction. I was like, “No. This cannot be happening. Are you kidding me?” I just laid there super still and I was like, “That was another one. It's happening.”I went to the bathroom and I had a little bit of my mucus plug and bloody show. I texted my doula right away like, “Oh my goodness.” She was like, “Oh, you know. Things are happening. Yeah.” I was like, “I know. I know. I need to go to sleep. I'm just going to go to sleep.” I looked at the pass because that was the biggest factor in what was happening. I looked. It was 2:00 in the afternoon. I looked at the pass and it said it was going to have 7-10 inches that night of snow. I was like, “Okay. Nothing is happening now, but maybe we should.” Our plan was to get over on the other side of the mountains in case it closed on us, we would be on that side. I was going to have this chance for VBAC no matter what. I texted my husband right away and I'm like, “Hey, I had a contraction. I've had several. I've got some stuff going on. Can you head home from work? He never responded.” 6:00 rolls around. My daughter got up. My contractions slowed just like they do when your toddler is awake. I was like, “Did you get my text?” He was like, “No, what?” I was like, “It's going to happen today. I've been having contractions. I feel it.” He was like, “Okay. I was like, “But the pass is starting to snow already up there and I think we've got to go. He was like, “Well, let's just see.” I was like, “Okay. All right. Let's do this. When she goes down for sleep, I bet it's going to pick up.”Sure enough, it did. 7:30 rolls around. I put her down and it started again just small contractions, but I felt it. He went to sleep and by midnight, I was having timeable 5-minute contractions trying to lay there. I was like, “I can't do this anymore. I've got to get up.” So I got up and I got in the shower. He came in and he was like, “Are you okay?” I was like, “I am having some pretty intense contractions. I cannot lay here.” He was like, “Okay.” We were just reading each other's minds at that point. We've been married so long and we were both thinking about the pass. What are we going to do? Who was going to come over at this point and see our kid? I was spiraling and I was like, “I'm going to get in the hot tub. I'm just going to get in the hot tub and slow these down. I know this is probably just prodromal so I'm going to get in the hot tub.”I get in the hot tub and I'm sitting there and it was the most beautiful night. The stars are out. The moon is out. The sun was not out. It was the middle of the night. It was 2:00 in the morning and I was sitting there. It was this surreal, beautiful moment. Having these contractions and the warm water, it was incredible. At that moment, I was so grateful to have the opportunity at this point. I had never gotten this far. It was so cool just to sit there. That was definitely one of the most beautiful moments of my labor. Jenny: Unfortunately, my contractions sped up in the hot tub instead of slowing down. Meagan: So they were real. Jenny: Which is good, they were real. I was thinking, “Oh gosh, what do we do?” They were 2-3 minutes apart by this point lasting over a minute. We called our midwife on the other side of the mountains and we were like, “Hey, this is happening I think.” She was like, “Do you think you can make it?” I was like, “I don't know, but we've got to try.” She was like, “But you pull over right away.” We knew where the hospitals were along the way. She was like, “If you feel like you are going to start pushing, you pull over right away and you call an ambulance.” I was like, “Okay.” We called somebody and woke them up in the middle of the night to come over and stay with our toddler and we started the trek over the mountains and it was insane. It was so insane, the snow. We were all over the place. There were semis in one lane and my husband was passing them on the other side. Just like I thought it would, my labor slowed down. It was a good thing because I was obviously in fear at that moment. I sat in the back. I sat backward. I put my TENS machine on and I was going to be in the zone. 39:43 Checking into the hospitalJenny: When we got there, they checked me and unfortunately, I was only 1 centimeter but I was 70% effaced. She was like, “It's real.” Meagan: Hey, that's good. Jenny: But it's prodromal. I was like, “Awesome. We just spent the whole night getting over here.” It was so crazy, but it felt really good to be on that side of the mountains at that point. That hurdle was overcome for us. We went to our relative's house that was close by. That was part of our plan and we just went to sleep. We just went there and tanked for the morning. I got a couple of hours of sleep. My contractions started to pick up again. She fed me some eggs and I threw them up right away. It was real. It was really happening. It was 2:00 in the afternoon. It started getting really intense. I got in the shower and the whole time, I was trying to stay on all fours. I was trying to lean forward. Part of B's birth class is getting all of that pressure forward and moving your body. It was so incredible. I lost so much more of my mucus plug that I didn't know was possible. I started having more and loose bowels and all of that. By the time my contractions were 4 minutes apart, we looked at traffic and it was insane rush-hour traffic, back-to-back. We called the midwife and she was like, “You'd better start making your way in here.” I was like, “Okay.” We got in the car and it took over a half-hour to get to what should have taken 15 minutes in bumper to bumper. It was so insane just sitting in the car. One of my friends who traveled to do her birth too, I asked her what she did in the car because I knew I was going to be in the car. She was like, “I concentrated on something. I found something to concentrate on and it helped me to cope.”I was like, “I'm going to time these and I'm going to use my TENS machine at the same time. I'm going to keep my mind distracted.” I also kept my birth affirmation cards in front of me and they were so helpful. I'm not one of those people who needs affirmations, but for some reason, telling my mind in that moment, “You're okay. You're safe. It's okay to do these things.” I had one that was a vortex. I don't know if that was on this podcast. I think it was where a girl was looking at this vortex and pictured herself opening. Anyway. It was so helpful. I felt like I was dilating. I really felt true movement at those moments. Of course, I was doing really slow, diaphragmatic breaths and trying to breathe through each one and stuff. Jenny: By the time we got to the hospital, my contractions were 2 minutes apart. They checked me and I was 5 centimeters and 100% effaced. Meagan: Yay!Jenny: I know. It was so wild. But my midwife wasn't on shift yet. They only had OBs. Anyway, they stuck me in triage and just left me on the monitor. It was so cool though. They worked with me. I was like, “I'm not sitting. I can't lay down. I have to keep moving and I have to keep swaying.” She was like, “Good. Let's put this on you and let's keep you in that position then.” She was like, “I think I can get a reading.” While they did have to do continuous fetal monitoring, it was okay. It really worked out. I was really worried about that. A lot of people talk about that and think it was one of the biggest hurdles, but it was really doable if you've got somebody who's going to work with you through it. My doula came and it started to become a blur. My husband started to read me my birth affirmations which was really kind of sweet because he is definitely not that way at all. One of them that came from the VBAC podcast was, “My vag is a waterslide.” I loved that one. We had such a good laugh because he was reading it to me. It was a really funny moment. Things were moving, man but we were stuck in that room for over 2 hours. It felt like 10 minutes to me because I was just in the zone. My doula tried to do a hip squeeze on me and I hated it but I couldn't even tell her because I was so in the zone. I could not verbalize at that moment. My nurse was moving super slowly. I think they were just stalling to get the midwives on staff.At 8:00, they finally moved me to my labor and delivery room. As I was walking by, the nurses were like, “Go, Jenny! You can do it!” It was so cool to hear them cheering me on and stuff. It felt like the victory line running towards the goal. It was really cool. I got in my room and it took her over 10 minutes to find her heartbeat. She was just sitting there trying to find it. I was almost like, “Maybe I should be worried,” but I was too in the zone. I was on all fours the whole time trying to move and just work with my body through it all. When she finally did it, she got the wireless monitors on me. I had been saying for 2 hours straight, “I just want the tub. Please give me the tub.” As soon as we got into that room, my doula went in. She drew the bath. She put the candles in there and all of the things. I was sitting on the bed just moving and I was like, “I've got to poop. I've got to poop. It's going to happen. I've got to go to the bathroom.” They were like, “Okay.” I walked away and I ran into the bathroom real quick. I was sitting on the toilet and I was thinking, “Man, this is insane. I feel like my body is just going to break apart. This is insane, the pressure.” It wasn't super painful, but it was but it wasn't. It's like pain with a purpose. Anyway, I was sitting on the toilet and I was like, “Man, nothing is coming out. This is crazy.” All of a sudden, another huge contraction hit and I jumped onto the floor and sat on all fours looking at the tub. It's right there. All the water was finally filled. I could get in after this contraction was over and my body started bearing down. 45:42 Fetal ejection reflexJenny: It's like I was throwing up from the back of my body. It was like down and out. It was like a feeling that I'd never felt before. It was so incredible. It was happening, the fetal ejection reflex and there was this new nurse next to me that was like, “You're pushing, huh.” I was like, “I'm not trying to but I think it's happening. I'm getting in the tub now.” She was like, “You're going to come back and get on the bed actually.” I was like, “No!” For 2 hours I had been begging for the tub and now I have to push. I was like, “I'm scared. I can't do it. I can't do this. It's all too much at this moment. I'm not ready.” Meagan: Yes. Jenny: I got on the bed. This new midwife just walks in. I had never seen her before. She locked eyes with me and she was like, “Let's do this.” I was like, “Okay, I guess we have to.” She checked me one last time. She was like, “You're 9.5 with a cervical lip, but I think it's time for you to start pushing.” I was like, “Okay. I can't help it. I'm pushing anyway.”I had this big contraction. I was still on all fours. They were trying to get the saline hep lock on me because they hadn't even done any of the things. I was GBS positive and they couldn't even get that in me fast enough. I had a contraction. I looked down and she was in my other arm because that vein had blown in that period of time. I was just like, “What is happening? It is so fast and crazy.” Labor land is such a blur, but at the same time, each time I came out of the contraction, people were like, “What do you want for this? What do you want for that? What's your preference?” I was like, “I want a physiological birth. That's all I know. I just want to do this. Let me do this.” Anyway, they had commented later that they don't normally see that in labor where the mom can verbalize what she wants but I had never met this midwife before and she was like, “I honestly don't know what your preferences are so I'm asking you now.” It was really nice that she was trying, but she was like, “With this next contraction, push.” I was like, “Okay.” I got on my hands and knees and I faced her which felt wrong and weird. She was like, “Okay, push.” I didn't because I was like, “I don't like this. This doesn't feel right to me.” But I couldn't say that. So then she was like, “Okay, with this next contraction, I want you to flip over on your back and I want you to push.” In my head, I'm like, “There is no way I'm going to do that. No,” but I couldn't say that.In the moment, I'm such a compliant person. I was like, “Okay, whatever. I'm just going to give her what she wants.” I flipped over on my back. She was like, “I want your knees up to your ears and I want you to bear down super hard.” I was like, “No, I know that's not right. None of that feels right.” I did and I didn't push at all. I was letting my body do its thing. I was just lying there for a second. She put her hand inside of me and she was like, “I want you to push here.” I was like, “I don't like that either.” As soon as I came out of that contraction, each one I was visualizing the wave coming up and cresting and coming back down. It was a really good visualization for me because I love the ocean. I came out of that and I was like, “I didn't like that. I want to do something different. Can you help me with that?” That's all I said to her. Meagan: I love that you said that. Jenny: It felt so good because I'm not normally somebody who stands up for myself, but I was like, “I want to do something different.” She was like, “Okay. Flip over on your side and hold your leg up and pop your knee out.” Do this crazy maneuver. Immediately, it felt right. It felt like the key in the hole locked into place. With that contraction, I pushed and she started crowning. 49:20 Pushing out baby and postpartum blood lossJenny: All I said with that contraction was, “There's so much pressure!” I was yelling it and yelling it. The contraction was over and instead of letting go, I held her there and clenched down so she would stay there and not go back up or anything because I could tell she moved right down and was right there. They were like, “Feel your baby's head!” I was like, “Okay, yeah. Whatever.” I tried to feel it. Meagan: Yeah, okay. Whatever. Jenny: Yeah, yeah. This is happening right now. I touched it and I was like, “Cool, okay. Yeah. There is a lot of pressure. I can't do this right now. I'm so scared.” At that moment, I was like, “The only way out is through. I have to push. I've got to do this.” With the next contraction, I just barely pushed and she just twisted and flew right out. It was insane, that feeling of a baby coming out of you. I just can't even describe it and I'm so grateful that I can describe it because it's incredible how we are made. I'm in awe. There are so many things that have to go right to get to that point. I am so grateful it did and I got to experience it. She came out right away and immediately, I was in business mode. I was like, “Is she breathing? Is she okay?” I was rubbing her down. People were kind of just hands off letting me do my thing. She started to crawl right up to my nipple. She did the breast crawl. It was all of the things that I wanted and never got with my first and it was so incredible to see this miracle happening right in front of me. I felt like I didn't do any of it. It was like it just happened almost. It was so incredible and unfortunately, I had a tear. She was looking at it and she had to go up and scrape some. I was trying to enjoy my baby at that point, but I was like, “Hey, can you just give me a Tylenol or something?” I hadn't had anything. She started to numb me and I felt all of that. I felt her stitching. I was like, “Can you give me some more of that because this really hurts?” I had an inside tear. After that, my nurse was kind of concerned that I was bleeding a lot, but my midwife wasn't. It was kind of weird. It almost seemed like nobody new my nurse or liked her. I think she was new. She was really slow so they were just like, “Yeah, it's fine. No big deal.” They were tracking my blood loss, but I got up to use the bathroom and at one point, she went out to fill my peri bottle and the water just wasn't getting warm. I was sitting for a long time on the toilet. I felt like a waterfall was just coming out of me. I was thinking, “I'm pretty sure this is normal. I don't know.” Anyway, she came back a minute later and she helped me go to the bathroom. I got back to bed and I was like, “Oh man, I don't know if I feel good.” They were like, “Okay, we're going to move you to your postpartum room.” I got in my wheelchair and I held my baby and I was like, “Hey guys, I think I'm gonna–” and then I passed out. When I woke up, I was having this cool dream and when I woke up, the whole room was filled with people who were all freaking out. My husband was looking at me. He told me later he was like, “I thought you were dying.” It was super traumatizing for him. I was holding the baby and they were trying to help me so they were all diving. He was diving for me with the nurse. Anyway, he was pretty upset having seen that and stuff. It turns out I had lost about half of my blood and they just hadn't been able to track it properly because they couldn't tell why I had passed out at first. They were like, “We don't understand. You didn't lose that much blood.” But they took the test. It came back. Meagan: Okay, this is interesting. This happened to me. Jenny: I know. I remember your birth story about it. Meagan: We still couldn't find it. Jenny: Yeah, isn't that crazy? Meagan: I still to this day don't know where it went. Jenny: I'm convinced mine was the waterfall in the toilet. I know that sounds so graphic. I'm sorry. Meagan: No, but that is a lot. Jenny: Yeah, it just felt like so much was coming out of me and nobody was there to document it. I was by myself. Meagan: Yeah, they were going to find the bottle. Jenny: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: Mhmm, interesting.Jenny: I know. It was crazy. Luckily, I was at a place that would help me with my preferences on blood loss and stuff so they worked with me really well. I'm so happy that there is alternative medicine out there so all of the rest of the people who can't take blood for whatever reason, it's available to them too. I'm grateful for that position and stuff. They work hard to help us in ways that maybe we don't think about. Meagan: I know. In some ways, I had regret that I didn't take the blood, but then I couldn't deny that my gut was telling me not to. It was just the weirdest. It was a disconnect. I still today don't know why. I've let it go and it's fine other than I'd be interested to know why, but we are just so grateful for those abilities to have those options. Jenny: Yeah. I'm really grateful I was where I was too because they were there within seconds to help me. It all turned out okay. I was fine. I was pretty weak and kind of gray for a little while, but I got a couple of iron infusions and that really helped. I was feeling like myself not as soon as I wanted. I was really hoping I felt a little bit better because you have the toddler at home and you want to do all of the things. I felt maybe disappointed in that regard of being so weak. The recovery was harder than I thought just with my tear and stuff too. I was surprised how hard it really was, so I'm really impressed by all those people who say that vaginal birth isn't that big of a deal. I've done both. My husband was like, “I really preferred the C-section honestly. The pass was open​​. We got to walk right in.” I was like, “Yeah, but it's just not the same.” Those moments.Meagan: There is something about it. There is definitely something about it. It's not to say that C-section can't be beautiful or amazing or healing even. My second C-section was completely healing, but yeah. There's something about it. There are no words but then there are so many words to describe it. Jenny: Mhmm, mhmm totally. I could talk about it all day. It's so exciting. Meagan: Well, oh my gosh. I'm so happy for you. I'm so glad you made it over the pass. I'm so glad that you were able to be there and even just find comfort even though you weren't super far progressed at first and that you were able to have this beautiful experience. I am sorry that you had these little hangups. It just goes to show that not every VBAC is perfect in every way just like every C-section isn't perfect in every way, but C-sections can be beautiful and so can VBAC. You just have to ultimately decide what is best for you. For you, you had that feeling and you were called to know what else your body could do. You knew it went through a really tough, tough birth with your first. Then you went through another tough birth, but an amazing one. One where, yeah. You were able to have that experience that you wanted. I'm so happy for you. Jenny: Thank you. Thank you for having us. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I'm so happy that you are here. 57:10 Jenny's advice for breech mamasMeagan: I did want to talk a little bit about breech. You said, “My baby turned. Maybe that's normal. Maybe it's not.” Yes, it can be normal and what breaks my heart is that so many people are left without an option. They are left without feeling like they could even try because we don't have those breech providers. They are few and far between. We love Dr. Berlin and the Informed Pregnancy Podcast and Informed Pregnancy Plus and Heads Up documentary and all of the things that they are providing because I feel like they are advocating. And Dr. Stu, they are advocating for breech birth that it is truly just a variation of normal. Anyway, if you have a breech birth, what would you give as advice for someone who's trying to figure out what to do? Do you have any that you would give?Jenny: Yeah, if they've tried all of the options because even the providers, I've talked to a couple of providers who do support breech birth and even they encourage you to try and get your baby to turn so if you haven't done all of the things, it's a good thing to try and do those things first. I mean, acupuncture, I couldn't believe how amazing that was. She wasn't moving a ton and then she flipped completely. So yeah, there's kind of something to that. Even though she didn't flip again until way later, yeah. I could still feel her moving a lot more during acupuncture than I did with any of the other treatments that I was going to. I was trying to see a Webster chiropractor and all of that too. There's a lot of things you can do to try and get your baby to turn, but I think trusting too is a huge one. Yeah, because I mean, I learned that a lot with my second birth too just to trust your body and if she's not turning or they are not turning, maybe there is a reason and to just go with that. Accept it. I am glad I tried to accept it sooner because maybe I relaxed more and she turned. Meagan: Hey, yes. Jenny: I wonder if that was part of it. I let it go. I really did. I just was like, “You know what? I'm going to listen to her. She's saying she wants to be breech. I'm just going to go with it and I'm not going to care anymore.” Then she turned. I don't know. Meagan: That's how my son was. It's kind of fun that we actually have some similarities here in our birth stories. But yeah, my son too. He kept flipping breech for whatever reason and we would flip him. My midwife would manually flip him and do an ECV, then I would feel those hiccups again up in my ribs. I'm like, “Dang it, he is breech again.” Jenny: That rascal. Meagan: Yes. I found myself very angry and I'm like, “If I have to have a third C-section because this baby is breech,” which I've never had a breech baby before, “I'm going to be ticked.” Then finally, my midwife said, “We have to. We have to trust him.” He flipped head down and stayed head down and it was all good. 1:00:22 Statistics on vaginal birth versus planned Cesarean for breechMeagan: I found a PubMed research paper on maternal and fetal risk of planned vaginal breech delivery versus planned C-section for term breech births. It shows that it was published in 2022 so just a couple of years ago. It goes through. It says, “The meta-analysis included 94,285 births with breech presentation.” Now, that's actually pretty decent. 94,000 births. It's also crazy to me to think that there were 95,285 people who had breech babies and it also just says that isn't that just a variation of normal? These babies are head up. I mean, 94,000 babies. But anyway, it shows the relative risk of perinatal mortality was 5.48 which had a 95% confidence interval. Sorry, 5.48 times higher in the vaginal delivery group compared to 4.12% for birth trauma and then the APGAR results show that the relative risk of 0.30% percent higher than a planned Cesarean group, so in the end which is kind of confusing I'm sure. I'm going to provide this in the show notes. It says, “In the end, the increment of risk of perinatal mortality, birth trauma, and APGAR lower than 7 was identified in a planned vaginal delivery.” We know that breech birth can become complicated. That's one of the reasons why a lot of these providers out there are just not willing to try. However, it says, “The risk of severe maternal morbidity because of complications of a planned C-section was slightly higher.”It's something to consider here where we are like, “Okay, well there is some birth trauma.” We know that sometimes we can have tissue tearing. We can have pelvic floor issues and trauma. We know that babies can come out a little stunned because of what happens when their body is delivered and their head is inside. And APGARS lower than 7 which is less ideal. However, even with a Cesarean, those rates were even slightly higher. In the end, we need to figure it out but what we need is more providers. We need more providers being trained and offered. They need to go to Dr. Stu's course. They need to listen to Heads Up. They need to get informed and offer people these options because just like Jenny and I, and even more Jenny than I, there is a lot of stress that goes into having a breech baby, and think about all of the things that you just said. If you had run out of options, meaning that you had done everything in your own power to try and help this baby flip and are now just relying on faith, which let me tell you, faith is amazing and we need to rely on faith all the time, but even then, if we are still at that roadblock, that is so hard. It's so stressful. I truly believe that we could lower Cesarean rates by a lot. I mean, even looking at these 94,000 people, we can lower that Cesarean by a lot if we just took one little step forward and offered breech birth again and trained providers. Jenny: I totally agree with you. I know. Just listening to all of the things I had to go through to get my VBAC, it could have all been prevented if I just had her, my first, vaginally. All of that stress and all of that, I wouldn't have had to do any of that. It could have just been normal. Instead, it's just this huge, stressful event and I can't say that enough because our lives are already stressful. Why should we stress more? Meagan: Yeah. I mean, it's 2024 which means that 24 years ago, breech birth started fading. We are really behind and it's something that breaks my heart to see if it's going to disappear. We can't let it disappear. We can't. Jenny: I agree. Meagan: Also, side note, if you listen to this episode and you know a provider who is willing to do breech, please message us at info@thevbaclink.com so we can get them on our list so we can help Women of Strength all over the world find a provider that may be willing to help with them. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Macy's first birth was a scheduled C-section due to breech presentation that required follow-up exploratory surgery due to an unknown cause of internal bleeding. Unfortunately, her surgeon had accidentally nicked an ab muscle. Macy's recovery was very difficult.With her second, doctors were nervous about her chances of VBAC and would only let her try if she showed up in active labor before 39 weeks. Otherwise, she would go in for a scheduled C-section. Macy agreed and her birth ended in another Cesarean. Her birth was beautiful and her recovery was smooth, but it still wasn't the empowering experience she hoped for. Macy hit the ground running during her third pregnancy. When doctors were not supportive of a VBA2C, she knew home birth was her best option. She found a midwife who was willing to take Macy on as her first VBA2C client! We know you will absolutely love listening to this birth story. Like Meagan said, “It is so beautiful. It is so peaceful. It sounds like one of those births where you close your eyes and you envision birth and how peaceful, beautiful, and calm it really can be.”The VBAC Link Blog: VBA2C Practice Bulletin - VBACInformed Pregnancy - code: vbaclink424Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 03:44 First C-section with internal bleeding and a follow-up exploratory surgery09:04 Second pregnancy11:37 Scheduled C-section and getting pregnant again shortly after18:44 Finding a supportive home birth midwife23:24 VBA2C prep during pregnancy27:46 Labor begins32:42 Breaking her own water and pushing for 17 minutes36:47 ACOG's statement on VBA2CMeagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. We are so excited to be sharing an HBA2C story and if you don't know yet what HBAC means, that's home birth after Cesarean and then HBA2C is home birth after two Cesareans. I feel like that's kind of funny. It's never really a term I used because I wasn't at the hospital and I wasn't at home, but I also kind of feel like I sort of had an HBAC. It was at a birth center. Maybe that's a term, birth center birth after two Cesareans. I don't know. But obviously, VBAC after two Cesareans are near and dear to my own heart and today we have our friend Macy from California sharing her HBAC story and just before we started recording, we were talking about how one of her messages that she wants to give is that you can do this. Right, Macy? You're just like, you can. People can do this. Macy: For sure. Meagan: Yes. Yes. I am excited to hear your story and then I wanted to also just talk a little bit at the end about some evidence on VBAC after two C-sections. So if you're wondering more about VBA2C, make sure you stick to the very, very end even after the story because we'll talk a little bit about that. 01:24Meagan: We do have a Review of the Week and this is from Jenna. It is actually on our How to VBAC: Ultimate VBAC Prep Course. She says, “I just started but have already learned so much. After two C-sections and one where my doctor made me think it was very risky, I was terrified to try again. With this course, not only have I learned the truth about VBAC, but I am excited to attempt mine in August.” That's coming up. I am so excited for Jenna. Thank you so much for the review and the support, of course, of taking the course. I am so excited that you are getting educated and definitely keep us posted. 03:44 First C-section with internal bleeding and a follow-up exploratory surgeryMeagan: Okay, cute Macy. Welcome to the show. Macy: Thank you for having me. Meagan: Absolutely. I'd love to turn the time over to you and share whatever message you feel is important for our beautiful Women of Strength listeners. Macy: Okay, well like with all VBACs, my story begins of course with my first pregnancy. During my first pregnancy, I was pretty healthy. I didn't love being pregnant, but I was excited that we were starting our family and I got to– I can't remember– 34 weeks maybe, 35ish, and baby was still breech. They offered me the ECV procedure, but they told me I would have to do it around 37-38 weeks and I was worried about it being so early before my due date that she would turn again. I was scared. They got me scared. They don't really present the ECVs as something that should work. Meagan: I know. I know. Macy: My midwife with my third pregnancy was like, “I wish you would have done it,” but they talked me out of it so I decided not to do it. Come 40 weeks, she was still not flipped, but I wasn't in labor so another thing is I wish I would have just waited to see because maybe she would have flipped in labor. Meagan: Sometimes they do. I actually recently had a client last year in 2023 that did have that. She was scheduled for her version and then she went into spontaneous labor so she actually went in pretty early because she was like, “Oh my gosh. My baby's breech. I was scheduled the next day for a version,” and they were like, “Baby's head down.” So it definitely happens. Macy: With my third one, she was sunny-side up. She was posterior, but I could feel her turning and getting into position. But anyway, I'll get there. I'll get there. I had my C-section scheduled. My daughter, Alayna was born 10 days before Christmas in 2018. She was perfect. She was 6 pounds, 13 ounces. I was not great. After my surgery, I came out. I was in the PACU and my blood pressure was dropping crazy low and my heart rate was spiking super high. I was ghost-white and they were like, “We don't know what's going on.” Long, long, long story short, I was having crazy internal bleeding. Meagan: I was going to say, were you hemorrhaging? Because that sounds like hemorrhaging. Macy: I was hemorrhaging. I was bleeding internally, but it was from having surgery. It was not anything to do with baby or birth. It was just surgery. So what we discovered is they had accidentally nicked an ab muscle and it was bleeding. 24 hours after my daughter was born, I had to go back in for an exploratory surgery and I was put under anesthesia completely again. They had to cut back open my layers and start over. Thankfully, they didn't have to cut into my uterus again, but they did open me back up and stop the bleeding, cauterize it and I mean, my recovery was just horrible. Meagan: Not great, yeah. Macy: I mean, thankfully I only had one baby so it was just her and my husband is amazing. I could not ask for a better partner, but it was just hard. It was hard to accept that, to grieve the birth I had dreamed of my whole life, but it never occurred to me that I couldn't have a VBAC. My mom had me via C-section and my three subsequent siblings were all VBAC. So when someone said to me at 12 weeks, I recovered. I was back at the gym and someone from the gym was like, “Oh, so you have to have all your babies as C-sections now.” I was like, “Wait, that's a thing still? We're still doing that?” I was like, “No. I'm going to have a VBAC.” I never even thought about it. I immediately was like, “Oh, so this is going to be a thing.” That's when I found you guys and I started listening before I was even pregnant with my second one, but when I did get pregnant three years later with baby number two, I probably binge-listened to every single episode. I was like, “I'm doing this.” 09:04 Second pregnancyMacy: I switched providers just because I didn't have a great experience so I was like, my postpartum care, I didn't care for my pediatrician so I just switched everything. But because I was with a new provider, I had a really difficult time locating my surgical notes. My new providers wanted to know if my first C-section was done with a single or double-layer closure. Meagan: Oh, interesting. Okay. Macy: Because of course, if it's single, it's going to increase my risk for a rupture. I at this point was already like, the risk of rupture is so low. I am not worried about it. Breech baby is a great candidate for VBAC. Meagan: And the evidence on that is really not solid on which one really is best. There are some that show double may be better, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your rupture rate skyrockets because you have a single layer. So they are focusing on something that didn't have a ton of evidence. Macy: Right. I was like, “There is just not enough research to justify all of these C-sections.” But because they didn't understand what had gone wrong and why I had to have a second surgery even though I told them a million times it wasn't anything to do with my uterus. It wasn't a me problem. It was a doctor's problem. They were just like, “We just don't feel comfortable with TOLAC.” And you know, it's always TOLAC. It's never just a VBAC. Meagan: I know. Macy: But they didn't want to do anything. They didn't want to offer ultrasounds. They just were not willing to take a chance even though it was a really good chance. So basically, they were like, “The only way you are having this second baby VBAC is if you come to the hospital and you are in labor and it's time to push.” I mean, that's kind of scary to someone who doesn't know. I mean, now that I've done it I'm like, “That's what I should have done,” and that's what I tell my friends. You don't go to the doctor until your contractions are two minutes apart because they try to scare women out of their VBAC. 11:37 Scheduled C-section and getting pregnant again shortly afterMacy: So I just didn't really stand up for myself. I just agreed like, “Okay, I guess.” I told myself, “If I go into labor before my scheduled C-section at 39 weeks, then that's the way God wants it and I will have my VBAC.” Obviously, that never happened and 39 weeks is pretty early now knowing especially when due dates are just guess dates. Meagan: Very important note that you just gave there. Macy: Yeah. I had my baby at 39 weeks. She was perfect. I mean, my recovery was– she was another 6 pounds, 15 ounces so they were almost the same size. That was Reagan. Recovery was a lot better but still, I had a 3-year-old at home. Going from one to two was pretty good for me. I have a big family. That was great. But it was still not the empowering birth that I wanted. I did feel– I don't want to say I didn't feel empowered because C-section is badass. It's hard. Meagan: Yeah. Mhmm, yeah. Macy: It's not the easy way out ever. There is no easy way out of birth. I do want to preface that and say if that's what ends up happening and you only have two kids and you only have two C-sections, that's okay too. I knew we weren't done having kids. I wanted the birth I wanted. I did not plan to get pregnant with such a short turnaround time. I was almost 8 months postpartum when we found out we were pregnant again. We were a little surprised. I mean, we are grown adults. It shouldn't be that surprising. Meagan: But still, it can be a little alarming when you weren't mentally preparing for that. Macy: I had just finished breastfeeding. I was just starting to track and all of these things so I was like, “Oh no.” But that was kind of when my work really started for me because I was like, “Okay. We are doing this again and I'm going to do this the way I want. This is going to be how I want it to go. This is my story and this is going to be an essential component of who I am as a woman and as a mother going forward for the rest of my life. I need this to go the way I want it to go.” I wanted it to go the way God wanted it to go of course, but I was like, “I'm going to take more control.” Meagan: Can I add something to that? Sorry to interrupt, but there are so many times that I hear people, I read on social media that people are getting after moms and parents who are like, “I want this birth. This is what I want. This is what I feel I need,” or what you are saying. “I want it to go a certain way.” They are like, “Why do you have to focus on what you want? It's not what you want. It's what's best for the baby.” They are railing on these people. I want to stop and say that what you said is okay. I feel like maybe a little passionate about that too because so many people were naysayers to me. “It does not matter what you want. It's what's best for the baby.” It's like, well guess what? That's also maybe what's best for my baby. Macy: Right. Meagan: It's okay to say, Women of Strength, “I want this birth. This is what I want.” And you deserve that. You deserve to go after what you want. Macy: It is hard and being a mom is hard. Meagan: Yes. Macy: You can start out in a way that you feel empowered. It is life-changing. It really is. Meagan: It is. So sorry for interrupting, but I just wanted to give a little tidbit that it's okay for people to want what they want. I wanted a white vehicle. I was going to find a white vehicle. It's okay to get what you want and to put forth energy and to say that out loud, “I want this VBAC. I'm going to get this. I want it.” Macy: You spend almost 10 months thinking about this and praying about it whereas you talk to– I mean, it wasn't as important to anyone else in my life except for me. That was okay. Especially the doctors and the providers, I'm just another person to them and yes, there are some really great providers out there and they do care, but they are at their job. They are doing their job. Well, my job is to be a mother. That's my job, so doing what serves me well was birthing my baby the way– Meagan: Having a VBAC. Macy: Having a VBAC. So I really hit the ground running. There were a few girls in my town who had recently had homebirths. They weren't VBACs, but they were VBACs so I reached out to them– shoutout to my girls Megan and Emily. They were so helpful because they were real people. I reached out to you guys and I just wanted to know, “Hey, what is the research on really close pregnancies?” because I wasn't going to hit the 18 months. Meagan: The 18 months. Your babies were going to be 17 months apart, right? Macy: 17 months. So that was even annoying too because I was like, “I'm right there. Come on.” You guys were like, “Go join the Facebook Community group.” I was so glad that I did because I was just finding story after story after post after post. Not only were so many women having VBACs after two+ C-sections, but they were close together. Some were like, “Mine were 12 months apart.” I'm like, “Oh, I'm good to go then.” It was so nice having that community. I was even able to join a community within the community of everyone who was due at the same time as me so when we got close, we had a group message and everyone was like, “Is it happening today? Is it happening today?” It was so nice not to be alone in that. I also had to find a midwife because I knew my providers were not going to be supportive of VBAC after two. I actually had a hard time finding a midwife which was also annoying because I was met with some medwives who were just really going to stick to that 18 months. 18:44 Finding a supportive home birth midwifeThen I happened to just find a woman who was like, “I've never done this before. You are my first VBAC after two,” but she was a midwife who was very knowledgeable. She had done lots of home births. She had done VBACs, but not after two. She was like, “If we don't start accepting these patients, how are we ever going to change the status quo? How are we ever going to make a change?” Meagan: Boom.Macy: Right. Meagan: It's so true though. Macy: I was like, “Okay. Statistic me, please. I would love to be a statistic for the positive.” The only thing was I was like, “I can't be one for a hospital birth, but it's fine.” Meagan: That's okay. That's okay. Macy: So I found Sarah. I started my visits with her. I had to travel an hour to my visits. It wasn't the worst thing ever. Meagan: That's a commitment though. That's a commitment. Macy: Towards the end, she came to me a lot more which was so nice. So nice. Meagan: That's really nice. Macy: Then we did a couple of phone calls, but we also texted all of the time and would FaceTime. It was just so personal. I also received co-care with another third local provider. I did that because my midwife wanted to have me get ultrasounds to check my uterus. She wanted to check for previa and we wanted to check for– what's the other one? I'm blanking. Meagan: Accreta? Macy: Yes, so she just wanted to be aware. Meagan: Placental issues and make sure the placenta is out of the way and all is doing okay. You're actually clear to have a VBAC. Macy: Yeah. Meagan: Which is very responsible of her. Macy: I received my co-care. I would go in there. I don't know. I almost had a chip on my shoulder because I was like, “I don't really need you guys,” kind of. I didn't leave those appointments feeling like I wanted to cry like I did with my second pregnancy because I knew that I had something better planned. So it wasn't as upsetting, but they were pretty rough on me. I had expressed my interest in a VBAC after two and you have to see the series of providers within the office. I had only one who was a little bit younger which was interesting, but he was the only one who was like, “Yeah. I really support this and the birth you want to have. I'm going to give you a referral to UC San Francisco and when we get to the end, I want you to start care there and plan to have your birth there.” He was the only one who was like, “I support the birth you want to have.” Everyone else was pretty awful. They told me, “If you TOLAC and your uterus ruptures, you will die and your baby will die.” I was like, I will never forget getting in my car and texting my midwife and being like, “Can you believe that he just said this to me?” I was just like, “Are you God? Do you know?” How could you say that to someone? “You will die.” Because that's not the case at all. That was interesting but I knew. Like I said, I knew I had a backup plan in the back of my mind. It was just eye-opening for me more than anything. It wasn't upsetting. Meagan: Someone that doesn't necessarily know the evidence of that, it can be terrifying. Macy: Yeah. Yes, totally. And you know what? It's frustrating because a lot of people just trust their providers. I'm a very skeptical person. I'm very conspiratorial, so I'm always researching things and looking into things, but people who are not prone to that are just going to trust what the doctor says because they went to school and they are smarter than them. It's so unfortunate that it's causing a high C-section rate for no reason. 23:24 VBA2C prep during pregnancyMacy: That was a bummer but anyway, throughout my pregnancy, I did all of the things. I did my VBAC Link course. I loved it. It was great to have that. I did a Lamaze class which was really fun. It was funny because we were the only parents in there with other kids. One other lady was a VBAC, but the rest were all first-time parents. They were like, “What are you doing here?” I'm like, “This is new for me.” Again, shoutout to Modesto Birth and Beyond. They are fantastic. They have a great set of doulas. I'm now on a friendly basis with them. They were great to have and they were really supportive of my whole journey. Let's see what else. I did a Hypnobirthing class. I read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. I mean, I walked and I stayed in shape. I kept doing CrossFit. I did CrossFit for all three of my pregnancies so I kept on. I ate healthy. I drank lots of water. I did all of the things. But I knew that when it came down to it, my mind was going to either make or break me.Fast forward to 41 weeks and I was getting very, very anxious. Meagan: Were you getting anxious because you were getting ready to have a baby type thing or were people giving you some grief that you were over 40 weeks? Macy: By the time I was 40-41 weeks, the grief and the doubt and the naysayers that I got were kind of gone. Most of the people in my life were supportive. I always got that question of, “What if this happens?” I live 5 minutes from the hospital, so I was not too worried about it. I was more anxious of, I was ready to meet this baby. I was the biggest I'd ever been. Third baby, only 17 months apart. My belly was huge. It was hot. I was swelling. I was ready to be done, but I also had never labored before. I had no clue what my body was going to do. Was I just going to go into spontaneous labor at 40 weeks? At 39? I had no idea. So every day that passes, I'm sure you remember that too, every day was a whole week where you wake up in the morning and I would just cry, “I can't believe I'm still pregnant.” Meagan: I remember going to bed and I was like, “Tonight could be the night,” and then I'd wake up and I was like, “It wasn't the night,” then that night, I'd be like, “Maybe tonight,” and it just kept happening. Macy: So annoying. I had so much prodromal labor. I had contractions. I could time them and I was like, “Oh, they are 20 minutes apart. They are for sure going to get closer,” then I'd go to sleep, wake up, and be like, “Okay. Here we go again.” Let's see. So on a Monday, I did acupuncture. Then on a Wednesday morning, I was 41 weeks and I went and got a massage. I got some acupressure. You never know if these are the things that really get things going, but sometimes they do. I got a massage and she gave me some moxibustion so I did that. You light it and do it around– my mom was like, “This is so hokey.” I'm like, “If it works, who cares?” I was trying everything. But I didn't want to be induced and I hadn't had my membranes swept yet. That was going to be the first intervention that my midwife and I agreed on because she was like, “Legally in California, you can't go past 42 weeks and have a home birth.” I was like, “Okay. I've got one week. One week and this baby will be here.” 27:46 Labor beginsMacy: That Wednesday morning, I went and got my massage and by 2:00 in the afternoon, I was like, “Okay. Things are starting to pick up.” I started having pretty intense contractions. I was having to– I could still talk. I was still taking care of my two little girls, but I was starting to feel really uncomfortable. My mom went home, then she came back. My husband gets off work at 3:30 and it was 2:30. I was feeding my youngest one a snack and he was like, “Do you want me to come home early?” I was like, “No, I can totally make it until you get home.” I had a contraction where I leaned over my kitchen counter, and then I was like, “Okay. Maybe just come home now.” He came home. I just didn't feel it. I was starting to feel irritated by my kids and I was like, “I just want to go in my room and watch a show on my laptop. I just want to be alone.” I didn't necessarily want them to leave yet, but I wanted to be alone and I wanted to know that they were taken care of. He came home and he was taking care of them. He was like, “Do you think this is it? Let's call my mom.” I was like, “Yeah. I think this is happening and I think it's going to be soon.” I just didn't know how long I was going to labor. It was a mystery. My mother-in-law came and picked up my little two daughters. That was kind of sad watching them leave knowing the next time I saw them, we were going to be a different family– a better family, but a different family. Yeah. I just labored at home. It was so nice not having to go anywhere. I took a shower. I had some snacks. I wasn't super hungry, but I definitely started drinking my electrolytes and started preparing to be hydrated. Meagan: Smart. Macy: I was like, “I'm preparing to run a marathon so I need to gear up.” I didn't nap. I've never been a great napper, but I laid around and watched some shows, then I didn't text my midwife right away because I had been bugging her so much with all of my prodromal labor that I was like, “I'm not going to text her until it's really happening.” But by 6:00 or 7:00 PM, i texted her and was like, “Just so you know, my contractions are about 10 minutes apart.” As they got closer, she was like, “Okay. I'm going to come now.” Once the sun started setting, it was getting a little bit more intense. We set up my birth space at home. I set up my pool. Well, I didn't. My husband set up the pool and we laid out all of the sheets on the couch and hung my birth affirmations. Actually, they had been hanging. My birth affirmations had been hanging for a couple of weeks so I started having them memorized, but we turned on the twinkle lights and I started listening to the Christian HypnoBirthing app which was fantastic. I just had such a peaceful labor. I don't know how else to describe it. My mom came in and then my sister-in-law came over then my other sister-in-law came over. They just talked around me. I could hear them, but I was just in my space. I labored and my water never broke for a very long time. I got in the pool at one point and then I got back out because my husband was like, “I think that being in the pool is slowing down your contractions a little bit. I want you to get out and walk.” I got out and started walking down the hall then I got really sick with a contraction. I happened to already be laboring backwards on the toilet and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm going to throw up.” I jumped back off the toilet so I could throw up in it then my midwife was like, “Okay. You're in transition now. You've got to be.” I hadn't had any checks at all this whole time either too so I had no clue what I was even dilated at. I was just completely trying to trust my body and just know that when it was time, it would be time. It really was. My body just did what it knew to do. 32:42 Breaking her own water and pushing for 17 minutesMacy: Like I said earlier, I felt her move into position. I got back in the water and I felt so relaxed in the water. I was drifting off in between contractions. Meagan: Oh, that's awesome. Macy: It was so calm and I just kept telling myself, “Breathe her down with every contraction,” and just all of the things I had been practicing, I was finally able to put into use. That was really cool, then I had a couple of urges where I was like, “I feel like I can start pushing soon.” I was like, “Do you want to check me now?” As soon as she stuck her finger, I was like, “Oh, no. No. Get your finger out. It's time. She's coming.” She was like, “Yeah. She's ready. She's right there, but your waters haven't broken yet.” I was like, “Can I break them myself?” She was like, “Yeah,” so I reached in. I gave it a pinch-twist and in the water, I broke it. Meagan: Oh my gosh, that's so cool. Macy: I felt the padding around her head, then I just felt her head. I felt her hair. I started pushing when it was time to push and I pushed for 17 minutes. It was perfect. Like I said, I felt her move and get into position. She came out and she was 9 pounds, 12 ounces so she was 3 pounds– Meagan: I was going to say 6lb,15oz, right, was your second and close to your first?Macy: 3 pounds heavier than my other two. She came out. She did perfectly. Her heart rate was perfect the whole time. She came out mad, screaming mad. She was so cozy in there. She did not want to come out. She came out but hearing her cry within 20 seconds was so reassuring. She was safe. I didn't need anybody. I just needed to trust my body and to trust the Lord. My midwife was like, “That was one of the most perfect births I have ever attended.” She was beaming with joy and she was so excited for me. She was just so happy because she was like, “I've never done this after two.” She was like, “You changed everything I thought I knew about home birth, about after two C-sections.” She even now has another client which is great who is a VBA2C. I cannot wait for this podcast to come out so I can share it with my midwife and she can share it with her new client. Hopefully, they have a really great birth too. All in all, it was just everything I dreamed of. I was so thankful and I just remember laying there with her on my chest. I was watching the video last night trying to get in the mindset and remind myself and get there. On the video, I can hear myself go, “I'm so freaking proud of myself.” Meagan: You should be!Macy: I was beaming with joy. I was like, “That was so hard but so worth it.” So it was great. It was a great experience. I could not be more happy with her birth. She's a great baby. She's so happy. She was a little hard at first for 10 weeks which was different for me, but after that 10-week hump, she was a really good baby. Her name is Lucille. Meagan: Cute. Macy: We call her Lucy which means “light” and she is the light of our lives. She is the best and I can't even believe we had a family without her for a minute there. But that's my story. 36:47 ACOG's statement on VBA2CMeagan: Oh my gosh. It is so beautiful. It is so peaceful. It sounds like one of those births where you really do. You close your eyes and you just envision birth and how peaceful and beautiful and calm it really can be. To me, you just described the birth that you physically did with one that I would imagine. Macy: Yes. It's how it felt. My sisters-in-law and my other girlfriend who was there taking pictures just kept saying, “You did so good.” I was just like, “I don't know what that means.” But everyone was proud of how it all went. I think that's so super revolutionary. I hope my story touches other people's lives. Meagan: It totally will. I'm so happy that you found your midwife and that your midwife was willing to take you on because a lot of the time, providers can be nervous if they have never done it before. Macy: Which I get. Meagan: Oh yeah. For sure, for sure. I'm just so glad that she was willing. That's one of the things that gets me sometimes with so many people who just are not, we have to respect them and what they are comfortable with. But really, the evidence does show that VBAC after two Cesareans is reasonable. The overall risk and rate of rupture is approximately 1.4% so it's still very low. It's still very, very low. I mean, ACOG themselves, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, they suggest it. They say it's a completely reasonable option so for so many people to be cut off after one is heartbreaking because there are so many people who could have a vaginal birth all over the world but aren't given the option. We have a high Cesarean rate. We have so many. There are so many people. Just actually weirdly enough at the gym, a man who is the darndest cutest thing ever, his name is Robin and he will always say hi to me and check in on me and how I'm doing. He knows that I cycle and one of the things he asked the other day was, “How's that doula thing coming?” I said, “It's really great.” He said, “I never asked you. What made you want to become a doula?” I just told him my story and he said, “Oh, so you had two C-sections?” His eyes were wide. He said, “But you said you have three kids.” I said, “Yeah.” He goes, “But you only had two C-sections?” I said, “Yeah.” I said, “With my first two girls.” He was like, “Wait.” He literally was stumped there for a minute. Macy: Yeah, people don't know. Meagan: He said, “You had a normal birth after two C-sections?” I said, “Yes.” I said, “Robin, I had a vaginal birth after two Cesareans.” He looked at me because I said the word vaginal. I said, “That's what it is.” He said, “I didn't even know that was a thing.” People just don't. They just don't know that and then there are still so many providers all over the world who aren't supporting it. In the ACOG Practice Bulletin, it says that VBA2C, vaginal birth after two Cesarean, is reasonable to consider for women with two previous low-transverse Cesarean deliveries to be candidates for TOLAC. We mentioned the word TOLAC earlier, a trial of labor after Cesarean. A lot of providers use that. It is a medical turn. We call it VBAC. They call it TOLAC. It's not a VBAC to them until the baby has passed through the vagina. It says that they are candidates for TOLAC and “to counsel them based on the combination of other factors that affect their probability of achieving a VBAC.” Meagan: Now, just a couple of things to share before we drop off on this episode, if you had a Cesarean before or two Cesareans, it is not necessarily a reason for you to have a third. If you have gestational diabetes, that doesn't mean that you can't VBAC either. I'm trying to talk up these other factors, right? If we have preeclampsia, that doesn't always necessarily mean that we have to schedule a Cesarean. We've shared stories in the past. We've even had things like babies with medical conditions where still even their provider said, “Just because your baby has this doesn't mean you can't have a VBAC.” That doesn't always necessarily mean you can't either. If you have a big baby, here we are. A nine-pound baby, right? A nice, squishy little baby. Big baby doesn't mean you can't either. A diagnosis of a small pelvis shouldn't be considered– these factors really are more extreme I feel like so if your provider is giving you some of these, “Oh, well you could have a VBAC after two Cesareans but because your baby didn't come down the last two times, it's just probably not going to happen.” You can't see it. Macy rolls her eyes with me. Macy: The baby is going to come out. It has to come out. Meagan: Baby is going to come out. Believe in yourself. Do the research. We do have a VBAC after two Cesarean blog. We'll make sure to link it here and kind of spin back to what you said about how you were like, “Let me be a statistic. Let me a statistic to your midwife.” VBA3C– we don't have a lot of stats on VBA3C and I think a lot of it is because we are not doing them. We are not allowing them yet we have so many VBA3C moms in our community who share or on our podcast who show that it still is possible. I feel like there needs to be more risk assessment there and studies need to be done there. So know that even if you've had three Cesareans, that still doesn't mean that you are eliminated from the chance to go for what you want, fight for what you want, and have that experience not only that you want but that you deserve. Macy: For sure. Meagan: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing your story and I cannot wait for this to be published for you to send this to your midwife so she can send it on to the next Woman of Strength. Macy: Thank you so much for having me. I have loved being here and talking with you. I hope there are so many lives touched and changed by sharing my story.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

The idea of renting or needing a wheelchair or ECV (scooter) at Disneyland can be daunting.  Today we have two guests to share two different perspectives on wheelchair and scooter rental at Disneyland.  First up is  Mica, a dedicated Disney fan with a mobility limitation, who shares her wealth of knowledge on using mobility aids in the park. We'll guide you through the essentials of scooter rentals and wheelchair navigation, ensuring your trip is as smooth as the ride on Dumbo the Flying Elephant. And for those moments when you need extra help, we delve into how Disney's Disability Access Service (DAS) can enhance your park experience.John from Amos Scooters drops in with his expertise operating Amos Mobility, a company that rents scooters and strollers to the hotels near Disneyland. We also provide valuable insights into the accessibility of local transport options, such as ART and EVE buses, and the sensitive conversations surrounding the usage of mobility aids that can lead to a more enjoyable trip for everyone involved.Right now, our tools are just for Disneyland, but we hope to expand to other parks soon. Disney changes policies, prices, and shows often. Be sure to visit our website at Parkmagic.com or Disneyland's Website for more information. Park Magic is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Walt Disney World, Disneyland, or Disney Enterprises, Inc. Walt Disney World, Disneyland, and Mickey Mouse are all registered trademarks of Disney Enterprises, Inc. Any use of third-party names or trademarks is for identification purposes only and does not imply, nor is it intended to imply, any affiliation with, endorsement from, or business relationship with any third party, including with Walt Disney World, Disneyland, or Disney Enterprises, Inc.

Today's guest Victoria Wilson is a wife, mother of 4, birth doula, childbirth educator, and doula mentor. With over 100 supported births under her belt now, you're gonna learn so much from her nuanced approach to birth! Listen in as Victoria shares her own experience of having an ECV with her last pregnancy and choosing to use more interventions than her previous 3 unmedicated births. I LOVED how honest and raw she is in our interview. Victoria's story will encourage you that it's normal to experience a wide variety of emotions about your birth & that birth IS unpredictable for everyone... including VERY experienced doulas & birth workers! Connect with Victoria on her website and follow her on IG!! Doulas & Birthworkers... check out Victoria's Birth Doula Client Workbook & other Canva templates. She makes it easier for you to be a great doula!! I've personally used Victoria's workbook in my doula practice for the last two years and absolutely LOVE it!! --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/lexizuo/message

We love hearing stories of how our Women of Strength navigate birth in an empowered way, no matter the outcome. Rebecca's story shows how she carefully selected the most supportive homebirth midwife, created a safe birth space in her home, labored hard and beautifully with her husband, took time to process information, assessed her situation, and consented to her second Cesarean when the time felt right to her. Meagan also talks about the different types of positioning and some signs that your baby might be in a less-than-ideal position. Rebecca and Meagan discuss tips and tricks to help prevent a swollen cervix and what options you have if that happens to you!Additional LinksNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Timestamp Topics01:54 Review of the Week04:31 Rebecca's first pregnancy07:25 Consenting to an unexpected C-section for breech presentation8:53 Fertility Fridays11:02 Sparked interest in VBAC and getting pregnant again13:53 Planning for a HBAC18:00 Tachycardia and GBS positive21:27 Early labor24:18 Calling the team30:10 Laboring through the night39:02 Making the decision to transfer44:53 Consenting to a C-section46:43 Tips for when things don't go as planned50:43 Signs of wonky positioning53:31 What to do57:00 Why you shouldn't skip the repeat Cesarean storiesMeagan: Hello, hello. It is Meagan with another amazing story on The VBAC Link podcast. Thank you so much for listening to us, you guys. I love this community. I know I talk about it. I know it's weird that I don't even know you, but I love you. I love you so much and I'm so glad that you are here with us today. We have our guest today from, let's see, Virginia. I think it's Virginia. That's what my mind is saying. Rebecca: Yep. Meagan: This is Rebecca, so welcome, Rebecca. Rebecca: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. Meagan: Absolutely. Me too. Her story, you guys, today is a repeat Cesarean story so if you didn't know on The VBAC Link, we do share repeat Cesarean stories because they are important to share as well. I'm excited for you to share more about your story and we're going to talk a little bit about swelling of the cervix at the end of this episode because this is something that we see and is a little bit of a part of your story. 01:54 Review of the WeekBefore we dive into the story and all of the things, we of course want to share a Review of the Week. This review is from shotsie3 and it says, “Amazing is not a strong enough word.” That is really awesome. I love that. It says, “I cannot say enough good things about The VBAC Link. Listening to this podcast not only saved my mental health but gave me the knowledge and confidence to take control of my second pregnancy. After my home birth turned into a hospital transfer and Cesarean with my first child, I felt broken. When I unexpectedly found out I was pregnant just 7 months postpartum, I felt scared and lost. I was afraid of failing again and doubted my body's ability to birth naturally, but I knew I absolutely could not have another Cesarean so I started obsessively researching VBAC. That's when I found The VBAC Link. I've been binging episodes ever since. Listening to these stories has been incredible. Each episode is like giving a shot of confidence into the arm.” Oh, I love that. A shot of confidence into the arm. We're giving you guys a little vaccine of confidence. It says, “Both my midwives and doulas have commented on how far my mental prep has come and I know it's all thanks to The VBAC Link. Julie and Meagan have given me lots of tools and resources to control my birth.” I love that. Control your birth. “I am now looking forward to welcoming my second child via HBAC in just five short weeks. I want to shout it from the rooftop, ‘EVERYONE SHOULD LISTEN TO THE VBAC LINK!'”This review was a little while ago, so shotsie3, if you are still listening with us, which we hope you are, email us. Let us know how your birth went. 04:31 Rebecca's first pregnancyMeagan: Okay, cute Rebecca, thank you so much for being here with us today. Rebecca: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to share. Meagan: Absolutely. Well, I'd love to turn the time over to you. Rebecca: All right, well I guess I'll start with just a little recap of my daughter's birth who is my first C-section. My daughter was born in January of 2021. We got pregnant with her during kind of the height of COVID. That pregnancy went really smoothly other than it was COVID times so of course, my husband couldn't come to any of the appointments or anything like that. I didn't really do much prep with her because I wasn't going to go to a birth class. There weren't a lot of resources available. All I really did was watch some YouTube videos. I kind of knew I wanted to try to have a natural birth, but I didn't prepare that much for it really. I read Ina May Gaskin's Guide to Childbirth and stuff, but I didn't do too much preparation. She went to 41 weeks with no complications. I didn't want to be induced, so my OB was like, “We'll go to 41 weeks and then we'll bring you in for an NST and an ultrasound.” So we went in on January 10th for her NST. She passed that with flying colors and I had asked them if they would give me a membrane sweep before they would induce me. They said they could try that, so they were going to come in and give me the membrane sweep, but luckily, one of the doctors there was like, “Well, let's do her ultrasound first just to make sure that everything's fine because that just makes sense before going down there and doing the membrane sweeps.” They did the ultrasound and she was like, “Did you know your baby's breech?” I was like, “No, I did not.” Meagan: News to me. Rebecca: Yeah. Every time the OBs would very quickly, I will say, very quickly palpate me, they'd be like, “Yep. Feels like she's head down. Everything's good.” She was like, “Yeah. She's breech so we're going to go ahead and schedule a C-section for today at 4:00.” It was around 11:00 or something when this happened, so I just immediately started crying because I did not want a C-section. That wasn't what I was planning for at all. She was like, “Well, we don't do the (ECV)s here.” Is that what it's called? (ECV)? Am I saying it right?Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Rebecca: Yeah. She was like, “We don't do that here. Your amniotic fluid is kind of low, so yeah. This is your option.” Meagan: I wonder why they don't do it there. Rebecca: I don't know. She just said that they don't offer that service. I guess I didn't really know to ask for a second opinion or to see what other– I was just like, “Well, she's telling me that this is my only option,” so we consented to the C-section which was really disappointing. 07:25 Consenting to an unexpected C-section for breech presentationRebecca: My husband had to go home and get a hospital bag ready because we didn't bring it with us or anything. We were like, “Oh, we will have time to go back if they are going to induce me.” I don't know. We just weren't prepared. Anyways, around 4:00, she was born via C-section and it was uncomplicated. It was uncomplicated. She did well. She did have some hip dysplasia because she was frank breech and they think she was probably frank breech for a long time, so her hips and the bones weren't in the socket at all. But other than that, she was completely healthy. But yeah, I remember that night kind of laying in bed with her nursing, and my husband was asleep. I just was quietly sobbing because I felt like everything that I was looking forward to kind of got ripped away from me and I didn't really have a choice in the matter. So I never got to experience one single contraction or any of that with her. I didn't even really have Braxton Hicks with her. It almost felt like there was no closure to the pregnancy. It felt like I should still be pregnant. I definitely, yeah. That was a struggle. That was a struggle for a while afterward kind of trying to find closure of that whole experience because it was just like, “Okay, you're pregnant and now you're not pregnant.” There was no transition. That was her story. 8:53 Fertility FridaysActually, to be honest with you, shortly after her birth, I was kind of like, “Well, if we get pregnant again, I think I'm just going to do a C-section again because I know what to expect. My body's already been through it. You know, I think I'm just going to do a C-section again.” That was kind of what I was thinking. But as I went on throughout my postpartum time, when I got my period back, I noticed throughout the year that I had some weird issues. I was spotting a lot all throughout the month and just different things were happening that I was like, “This doesn't seem quite right.” When I went to the OB about it, they were like, “Oh, it's fine. Your body is probably just getting back into the swing of things.”But it would be like, “Okay, well I've been postpartum for a while now.” This was two years down the line. I think that there's probably something going on that needs investigating. They were kind of like, “No, it's fine. It's fine.” I ended up finding a podcast actually called “Fertility Fridays”. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's really awesome. Meagan: I haven't. Rebecca: It just teaches women about their bodies. How to track your cycle and what your cycle means, and how to know if you're actually fertile at that time because that's another thing. It took us a year to get pregnant with Emma Jean. I was also afraid, “Well, it took us a long time last time. Maybe something was wrong.” I just got really into body awareness and women owning their bodies and the different choices that we make and that our bodies have all of these natural processes that we don't even really know about all of the time because we are not educated about those things. Meagan: Yeah. Rebecca; So as I educated myself on how my body worked and all of its amazing processes, I also became really interested in physiological birth again. It re-sparked my interest in that and my passion for that. I kind of was like, “Well, my body is set up to do all of these amazing things. Why don't I let it do that? If I do get pregnant again, I do think I want to try to have a VBAC and let my body do what it's supposed to do.” 11:02 Sparked interest in VBAC and getting pregnant againRebecca: That kind of sparked my interest back into the VBAC and the physiological birth. I got pregnant again in, I guess it was September of 2023. It's 2023 now, right? Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Rebecca: It was 2022 that I got pregnant again with the first time trying because I had used these methods that I had learned to actually know, “Hey, I'm fertile on these days.” Unfortunately, that pregnancy did end in a miscarriage so we miscarried that baby in November around this time of year. That was also crushing, but luckily, we started again in January, and again, right away, the first time we tried, we got pregnant again with my son, Arthur who luckily is here with us today. We got pregnant with him in January of 2023 and that was a pretty scary first trimester because I was definitely worried about miscarriage and things of that nature. But as soon as we got pregnant with him, I started listening to The VBAC Link. I also just started to think about, because you guys talk about it all of the time, finding a provider that was friendly to VBAC, truly friendly. Meagan: Yes. Rebecca: Based on my experience with my OB that I was with, I felt like they were tolerant of VBAC but not necessarily supportive. I figured with her, I went to 41 weeks and I hadn't experienced a single contraction. I think they would have been like, “Well, if you don't go into labor by 39 weeks, it's going to be a repeat Cesarean.” I wanted to look for other options and one of my friends had a wonderful home birth for her second child and she recommended Kelly Jenkins who is Blue Ridge Birth. Meagan: What city are you in? Rebecca: I'm in Winchester, Virginia and she works all throughout the surrounding area so the Northern Virginia area. I called her around 7 weeks. I was like, “I know it's kind of early.” She was like, “No. This is perfect timing because I'm already almost full for October,” which was when I was due. She was just really great about going through all of the fears and concerns we have as VBAC parents going into a home birth. She just made me feel so comfortable. She was just really thoughtful with all of our questions, had a lot of stats and evidence, and just really practical which was what I was looking for. Somebody who really was practical and knew their stuff, but also wasn't necessarily a traditional OB. 13:53 Planning for an HBACRebecca: We ended up signing on with her for our care. She would come to our house at the normal time and an OB would come and spend a whole hour with us and just answer all of our questions which was awesome. Meagan: Wow. Rebecca: I never felt like, “Oh, well you're a VBAC so you are a huge risk.” Everything was just supportive and always gave us all of the evidence for all of the choices we had to make all along the way. I also did yoga throughout this pregnancy. I immediately downloaded the Spinning Babies yoga thing. We watched the Spinning Babies parent class because I was trying to do everything not to have a breech baby. Meagan: Yes. Rebecca: I went to the chiropractor a lot and yeah. I just tried to do everything with my posture and all of these things to make sure this baby was not going to be breech. That was my biggest fear. He never was breech, so that wasn't the problem. We also took a Bradley class. I have mixed feelings about Bradley, especially as a repeat Cesarean parent. Meagan: Yep. Rebecca: I think Bradley is really great, but I will stand on a soapbox just for a minute and say I also think Bradley is pretty dated and somewhat unfair to parents because it really does villainize any kind of drug or anything. Sometimes you have to do things for the safety of your child and I feel like it really villianizes using a lot of medical tools that sometimes you truly need. Meagan: That are necessary. Interesting, yeah. Rebecca: Luckily, we had a great doula who taught our Bradley class. It was Bethany Bagnell. She definitely gave it her own spin and kind of, I feel like, was more open-minded whereas if you read the Bradley book, I feel like he's very stringent and I just feel like some of the things he promotes are a little bit outdated in my opinion. But I really liked her so it was a very informative class. We felt really prepared going into the birth. 18:00 Tachycardia and GBS positiveWe really didn't have any complications until week– I guess it was 34 or 35. Kelly came to our house to do our normal check-up and the baby's heartbeat was really fast. She called it tachy. She was really concerned about that and so we actually did go to the hospital to get an NST. They were pretty rude to us at the hospital. They were kind of like, “Why are you guys here? I don't understand why you are here.” We were like, “Our midwife–”Meagan: Just checking up. Rebecca: You know, the heartbeat was really high. I don't know. They just weren't very kind to us while we were there. But anyway, they ended up not giving us the test that she asked them for. She wanted them to do an ultrasound and an NST and they refused to do the ultrasound. We ended up having to drive up to Laden to get the ultrasound. Everything was fine. His heart rate had settled back down and he looked fine. He was head down so we were happy about that. But that was the only little scare that we had. The other thing that was a little bit of a complication but not a complication, just something that happened is we did test positive for GBS. That was not a big deal. We could get the antibiotics at home so it did not preclude us from having a home birth or anything. We did research a lot about that because we kind of wanted to avoid antibiotics so we did a lot of research to decide what the best decision was for us whether we wanted to do those antibiotics. We decided we were just going to play it by ear based on how soon my water broke and different things. Meagan: Signs. Yeah, all of those things are really good things to take into consideration. Rebecca: Yeah, exactly. My urine was clear for GBS. It was just the swab so that was another good indicator that it might be okay. Then yeah, we were just going to kind of wait and see. I also went on a really stringent diet. I cut out white foods and a lot of the things that are shown to feed GBS then I added a lot of fermented foods and probiotics and stuff like that. Meagan: Awesome.Rebecca: So those were really the only two little bumps in the road. The whole pregnancy, every time, she would palpate which would be a full belly map by the way. When the OB would touch my belly, it would be for 10 seconds. Kelly would actually go in and she would completely map out my belly and be like, “I can feel his neck here and his butt.” Every time she did that, she would be like, “He's in a great position. He's in a perfect position.” We were really hopeful going into things. Of course, he did go over the due date but I kind of expected that because Emma Jean did the same thing. The difference with him was I had a lot of Braxton Hicks and I did actually have a few days where I had some prodromal labor or some episodes that I was like, “Maybe this is labor,” and then it kind of just fizzled out. 21:27 Early laborHe went to 41 weeks and I was starting to get a little nervous that we might have to induce. I really didn't want to do that, so the day that he was 41 weeks, I started feeling contractions every 10 minutes throughout the day. I was at work and I was just kind of breathing through them. They weren't painful, but I was definitely like, “Okay. These are kind of timable, every 10 minutes or so.” Right after work, I got together with some of my work friends and we went for a really nice, hilly, 3-mile walk and sure enough, by the time I got home from that, I was feeling contractions become stronger and closer together. They weren't painful yet, but around the time that I was cooking dinner, I went upstairs and I went to the bathroom and I had blood all over my toilet paper. I was like, “Okay. That's a good sign. Maybe I am in labor. Maybe this is finally it,” because we had a few episodes and we had been trying all of the things to get things going. I told my husband, “Maybe things are really happening.” I texted my midwife and she just told me, “Go to bed early tonight. After you put your daughter down, go to bed and see if you can get some rest because it sounds like this might be it so try to get some rest.” I got my daughter down and tried to lay down probably around– she went to be around 8:00 and I tried to lay down around 8:30. As I was laying in bed, I just couldn't get comfortable. What it felt like to me was gas pains. I had always heard period cramps, but I was feeling very strong gas pains. I told my husband, “Maybe I just have gas.” He was like, “Your gas doesn't come in waves like that. I think you're having contractions.” I was like, “I don't know.” Meagan: It doesn't come in waves. Rebecca: He was like, “You're having contractions. I think you're really having contractions.” So he started to time those and they were coming every 5-7 minutes and it was too uncomfortable for me to stay in bed, so I was like, “Well, let's go ahead and go into the basement.” We have a nice finished basement and we were going to birth down there. That's where we were going to set up the pool. I was like, “You can get the tub set up and I can kind of pace around and we will make sure we won't wake up Emma Jean,” who is my daughter. We came into the basement probably around 10:00 and pretty much as soon as we got into the basement, my contractions became strong enough that I wasn't really feeling like I could talk through them anymore. I was leaning over the ball and breathing. My dog, Maggie, was right beside me. Her face is right next to mine the whole time. She was kind of starting to distract me so I was like, “Let's call my dad to come get the dog.” I was like, “I think this is really happening.” 24:18 Calling the teamRebecca: We called everyone. We called Kelly and we called my mom and my sister who were going to help and attend the birth. Everybody just started rolling in. My dad came and got the dog. My mom and sister came and then Kelly was coming around midnight. By the time Kelly got there, I was definitely like, Rick was already helping me out with counterpressure because my contractions were so strong in my back. Everything was in my back, not in my abdomen at all. I remember in the back of my head, I was like, “Man, I remember that means position.” Meagan: Usually. Rebecca: It's probably not what it should be. Kelly, on the phone, had told me to try to do some of the Miles circuit. I had been working through that a little bit when she showed up. When she showed up, I was on the bed in the head down position with the butt up which is part of the Miles circuit and my water broke. My water broke right around midnight when she arrived and that was really cool for me because I had not gotten to experience that with Emma Jean so that feeling is still something that I think of fondly because I never got any of that with my first daughter. Kelly was like, “Just so you know, your contractions might pick up now because your water is broken.” I was like, “Okay,” and they definitely, definitely did pick up. I feel like I almost didn't even go through that early labor stage. I feel like I kind of went straight into that active, you've got to focus. You've got to breathe. My husband had to be right there with me with the counterpressure. Things were pretty strong. They were tolerable and I was excited, so I wasn't like, “Oh, this is really painful.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. It's happening. This is all happening.” That really, I think, helped with the pain tolerance. I was excited for it. But for most of that part of labor, I was leaning over the bed or the couch, and my sister, I would hold her hands and look at her. My husband would be behind me with the counterpressure. They were getting the tub all going and everything. Then Kelly was like, “Do you want me to check you?” I let her check me, but I told her not to tell me how dilated I was. She checked me and she was like, “Well, he's really, really, really low. I can already feel his head. You're almost completely effaced so that's good.” She didn't tell me how dilated I was, but I was like, “Okay. He's low. I'm effaced. Things are sounding good.” Then the nurse got there and we had to decide if we wanted to start the antibiotics for the GBS. My water had broken so I was kind of like, “Um, I don't know. Let's see.” Then I asked Kelly, “Can you just tell me how dilated I was so I can kind of get a sense of how much time we have?” She said I was only at a 1. I was kind of disappointed by that, but I was like, “I haven't been laboring that long. I know that dilation can come really quickly. It's not the only thing. I'm effaced and he's low,” so I didn't let it get me down, but we did decide to go ahead and run the antibiotics. She hooked me up with those and I was able to still be in the tub and everything. She just covered it with a dressing and a plastic so I could be in the tub. I did get in the tub at that point. I got in the tub probably a little after midnight. I don't know the exact timeframe. The tub was nice, but my husband hates baths so at first, he was like, “I'm not going to get in the tub with you.” I was like, “Okay, well I need your counterpressure so buddy, you're going to have to.” Meagan: Get in.Rebecca: Yeah. I went through a few contractions in the tub without him in there with me and to do the counterpressure, I would press my butt as hard as I could against the bottom of the tub. I was like, “This is not cutting it. You're going to swim with me now. Get in.” He did. He got in. He's kind of a germaphobe which is part of him not liking tubs thing. Meagan: Okay, fair. Rebecca: He got in with me and he did what he needed to do. He was awesome. Basically, I would just press against– I was lined up against his pelvis and I would press my butt into him as hard as I could because every contraction felt like my butt would fly apart if I didn't have somebody holding it together. Meagan: I  can totally relate. I was in labor. I was like, “He's going to come out my butt.” Everyone was like, “No, he's not.” I'm like, “Yes, he is.” Those posterior babies. Rebecca: Yep. It just felt like my butt would fly apart if no one held it together. That was how I was getting through each contraction. I labored in the tub for a while then I had to use the bathroom so they were like, “You should labor on the toilet for a while. People love laboring on the toilet.” So I was like, “All right.” I did not like laboring on the toilet. Meagan: Dilation station. Rebecca: I think I just really needed my husband's body. I don't know why. I needed to be pressed against him in some form or another. He was definitely my rock through that whole thing. He was really good. He read The Birth Partner book and everything. He really was with me 100% of the way which is another reason I'm so thankful that I got to labor this time because the bonding between the two of us going through that together was just something that I could never replace. It was just amazing. 30:10 Laboring through the nightRebecca: We kind of went back and forth between the tub and the bed and doing different things. Everything was going well. I remember asking people what time it was a few times and I was like, “Man, the night's really going by quickly. I feel like I'm laboring really hard, but I'm managing and everything was going well.” We labored all through the night until my daughter woke up at 7:00 in the morning. I wanted to say goodbye to her before she went off to school to daycare. I waited for a contraction to end because I was like, “I don't want her to come down here while I'm acting crazy.” When the contraction ended, I called up to my mom. I was like, “Bring down Emma Jean.” She was so cute. She was like, “You're swimming? You're in the pool? What's happening?” I was like, “Yeah. Your brother is coming. Kelly is here,” and she was really excited that Kelly was here because she got to know her throughout the pregnancy. She was really excited. She gave us a kiss and we told her, “Probably when we pick you up from daycare, your brother will be here,” so it was really cute. Then my mom took her. She took her to breakfast and was going to take her to daycare. Basically, as soon as she left, that was my permission to make as much noise as possible. Meagan: Let it go, yep. Rebecca: Yeah. My contractions were starting to be really, really strong. I was starting to feel pushy and I was having to basically roar through them. I was really fighting it. I was sounding angry. I was kind of roaring through them with sort of gritted teeth which I know is the opposite. You're not supposed to grit your teeth. You're supposed to let your jaw be loose and all of that. I was definitely roaring through those contractions. At that point, Kelly was like, “Look, it seems like you might be getting kind of close. Let's check you again and see what's going on.” The intensity of where I was and what I was doing to get through the contractions, I was really expecting and hoping that she was going to say I was maybe a 9 or a 10. She told me later she was fully expecting to tell me, “You're a 9 or a 10.” But when she checked me, I was only a 4.That was kind of crushing to me, but I was like, “Okay.” Actually, I told her not to tell me at first. I was like, “Don't tell me. Again, don't tell me unless it's time to push.” Meagan: Do not tell me, yeah. Rebecca: She said, “Okay, it's not time to push.” The way she said it, I was like, “Something's weird. Something's wrong.” She was like, “I really need you to relax. We're not going to get back in the tub. I want you to lay in the bed. I want you to be in a side-lying position.” She put me in very specific positions and she was like, “I really need you to rest and relax.” 33:09 First signs of swellingI was kind of like, “Okay, something is weird,” so I just asked her. I was like, “Well, what am I at?” She was like, “You're only at a 4.” I was like, “What? I've been laboring all night intensely.” She was like, “And the baby's head is already trying to come through and his head at the top is starting to swell a little bit,” which they called a caput. She was like, “So you know, he's good. His heart rate's good. Your heart rate's good. I'm not worried, but we do have to keep an eye on that.” So she was like, “I'm going to have you go through some different phases of the Miles circuit to see if we can change his position a little bit, get him off your cervix a little bit,” and things like that. I was not able to get those really strong counterpressure that I needed from Rick in that side-lying position, so I was like, “Let's get some music going. I need some kind of distraction.” I'm a singer. I love to sing and I play music and stuff so we put on our wedding playlist. We were just both lying on the bed. I had him get my comb for me so I could squeeze it and I was just singing through our wedding songs. That was actually a really beautiful part of the labor for me. I was sitting there and singing through our songs. It was kind of a chance to just be quiet and think about things. I just kept saying in my head, “Okay. Dilate. Dilate. You're going to dilate,” and thinking that over and over again. She had me do 30 minutes in each of these different positions. The one with the head down and the butt up was super uncomfortable I think because my neck was hurting. I was so ready for that to be over. After we went through those, she was like, “Okay, let's get you up and get you moving again.” This was probably at least an hour later that she was like, “Let's get you up off the bed and we'll just move around.” Rick and I danced around. Every time a contraction hit, I would just squat down really low and he would squat down and hold me in a chair almost and just hold onto me, then we would sway and dance. Meagan: How cute. Rebecca: Yeah. It was really special. We did that for probably another half hour, then it was time for me to get another round of the IV which I guess I had been getting every 4 hours is what that generally is. Kelly was like, “How about we do another round of the antibiotics and then I'll check you again because it will have been about two hours more or so. We will see if you have progressed and what is going on.” At this point, I was starting to feel a little discouraged. I remember I was sitting on the birth ball and Bethany, the nurse, was giving me the antibiotics. I just remember looking at Rick and I was like, “I'm trying so hard.” I was tearful. I was like, “I am trying so hard. I know that I'm a good mom.” He was like, “You're the best mom.” He was crying and I was crying. He was like, “We're going to get through this and we're going to do what we need to do.” Throughout my whole pregnancy, I had told him, “If I don't get a VBAC, it's going to be so hard for me. It's going to be really crushing for me.” His perspective on it the whole time was always like, “Look. We're going to make the best decisions possible with the information we have.” He was like, “Hopefully, that is you getting your VBAC, but if it's not, it's because we had to move to the next plan because it was the best decision.” He was kind of like, “Look. That's the same thing. We're going to make the best decisions with the information we have. You're a great mom and you're doing a great job. I'm so proud of you.” That was just really special. We were just going through the emotions. After we got the antibiotics, she checked me again. I want to say this was around 10:00 in the morning and she was like, “Becca, you're still a 4.” And she said, “Now, your cervix is swelling.” She said, “Look. You know, you're not in danger at this point. The baby's not in danger. This is not an emergency. But, I can't tell you that if you keep going for a few more hours, you're going to have your baby here. I don't know.” She was like, “Chances are your cervix will continue to swell. You've also been in labor for a long time. You're getting tired.” She just kind of started to talk to us about hospital transfer. She was like, “Maybe if we go to the hospital and you get an epidural and you can relax and maybe we can try some different positions with the epidural and get the baby to come off the cervix some.” We started talking about it and I remember I was going through a contraction on the edge of the bed. I had my arms up on the bed and I was just sobbing. I was like, “I tried so hard. I'm trying so hard.” But I remember as soon as I found out I was still just at a 4 and that my cervix was swelling, it is very mental because my tolerance of the contractions, my pain tolerance, just went down. Meagan: Yeah. Rebecca: All of a sudden, they just felt so much more painful because I was going from being like, “Well, maybe I'll meet my baby any second,” to “Who knows? Who knows what's going to happen?” Meagan: Starting to feel the defeat and doubt. Rebecca: Exactly. We talked about it and we were like, “Well, we could labor here for who knows how long and still need to transfer, or we could go ahead and transfer and try something new.”39:02 Making the decision to transferWe made the decision to transfer. Luckily, I only live 5 minutes away from the hospital, so it wasn't a super long process to do that. We already had our hospital bag packed this time. I was ready with that. I had my hospital bag packed. I had my C-section plan just in case. I had my hospital plan just in case. I at least felt ready to go. Nobody said, “You have to transfer.” It was our decision. We felt like we had the information and we made the decision together. That part of going to the hospital, I remember just wishing I could turn these contractions off now because now, getting in the car, not having the counterpressure, all that, and the funny thing was we walked out onto our patio. I had a contraction on the side of my patio and of course, my neighbors drive by and roll down their windows and are like, “How's it going?” Meagan: “Are you okay? How's it going?” Rebecca: Yeah. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I love these neighbors. They are amazing, but I was like, “This is not what I want to be doing.” But we made it to the hospital. We got to triage. They strapped me all up. I was lying flat on my back in the most uncomfortable position, but basically, we got through triage and everything. From the time I got to the hospital to the time I got the epidural was probably still another hour and a half of labor at least. That was really tough. We made it there. We got there. We finally got the epidural placed. I would say it was around noon when I finally got the epidural placed. I will tell you. I am all about natural labor and if somebody had told me, “You'll have to labor 10 more hours, but you're going to push your baby out and everything is going to be fine,” I would have found it in myself to do that.Meagan: Yeah? Yeah? Rebecca: I will still say that epidural felt so freaking good. Meagan: I bet. Rebecca: It was just a warm wave of a warm tingling hug. As soon as I got the epidural, all of the pain just kind of melted away. I was like, “This is where we are so I might as well enjoy this for what it is and take this relief.” Yeah. The other thing was that the doctor was, I would say, VBAC tolerant for sure, the doctor on call. He kind of came in and gave us a big spiel about TOLAC and did we know the risks. He was like, “Look, you can try for a VBAC, but if anything goes wrong, we're not going to try to fix it. It's just going to be a C-section because we're going to play it safe.” I was like, “Okay.” I didn't have any problems with him. He was a nice guy and everything, but as soon as he said that, I was like, “I have a feeling this is going to be a C-section. I think it's just going to be a C-section.” The nurse was very great. She put me on the peanut ball. She moved me around some different positions to try to get him to back off my cervix. When they checked me again, I was still a 4 even after that time. I labored with the epidural for about two more hours to the point where I was like, “I'm getting kind of bored and antsy. I sort of want to know what's going to happen. What's the plan at this point?” At about two hours in, the doctor came back in and he checked me again. He said, “I could push you to a 5, but you're still basically a 4.” He said, “Your cervix is very swollen.” He said, “I could give you Benadryl or something like that for the cervix to come down.” He was like, “But I really don't like to do that because at this point, whatever is happening to your cervix is a position thing. It's a mechanical, positional thing.” Also, the epidural slowed my contractions way down. They went from being 3 minutes apart to being 10-12 minutes apart. He was like, “I'd probably have to give you Pitocin to get this going again.” He was like, “I'm not comfortable doing that.” He basically said, “I recommend a C-section and that's basically your option.”Meagan: I was like, “Okay. Can you give us a few minutes to talk it over?” He did. He left the room. My midwife, Kelly, was still there. She stayed on the whole time as my doula. She basically was like, “You know, I do understand what he is saying.” She was like, “I kind of wish he would have told you that earlier and not made you wait for two hours.” She was like, “I agree. It probably is positional and there's probably not a ton we can do.” Oh, another thing he had said was that the baby was having some decels after my contractions. He was like, “You know, that can show us the baby is in a little bit of distress.” She was kind of like, “You know, I understand what he is saying and I'm not sure that I would give you any other advice. I'm not sure I would tell you anything different.” My husband and I talked it over and we were like, “Let's just meet our baby. Let's just meet our baby now.” We had them go over our C-section plan and of course, they weren't willing to do most of the things that we had on that plan. They didn't have the clear drapes. There were just a lot of things that they weren't willing to do, but they did agree that the nurse could take pictures of the surgery for us which was something I didn't have with my daughter.Meagan: Which is nice. Rebecca: Yeah. She took pictures for me and that's pretty much the only thing, I think, that was really different. She took pictures of everything that happened. 44:53 Consenting to a C-sectionRebecca: Around 4:00, we consented to the C-section, and then yeah. They just prepped me. My sister took a picture of me giving a thumbs up getting ready to go. She took a picture of my husband and his whole suit and everything. I was like, “Okay. Let's just do this thing and get our baby now.” I did shed some tears while they were rolling me into the OR and I remember the anesthesiologist well-meaning was kind of like, “What? Are you afraid of a C-section? You've already done this!” I know she was trying to be like, “There's nothing to be scared of,” but I was kind of like, I even said to her, “I'm not scared. That's not why I'm crying.” She was like, “Well, what's wrong?” I was like, “I'm disappointed.”Meagan: This is not what I wanted, yeah. This is not what I planned for. Rebecca: That was a little bit like, “Okay. Come on. Empathize a little bit here. There are lots of reasons why someone could be crying going into this.” Long story short, the C-section all went to plan, but as soon as they did pull him out, they did say he was OP. He was sunny-side up and then they also said, “And he's 9 pounds.” So he was pretty big. I mean, I could have pushed him out for sure but he–Meagan: Yeah, on the bigger side. Rebecca: But he was in sort of a poor position which could be why I had the swelling and everything of the cervix. He came out and he was really, really healthy. Once we got to the recovery room, he nursed right away. He was definitely a hungry little boy right from the beginning so that was awesome. He latched right on and nursed and everything. Yeah, that's pretty much the story. 46:43 Tips for when things don't go as plannedMeagan: You know, it's so interesting how we have these things. We go through all of these things and we end sometimes in the way we didn't want, right? Rebecca: Yeah. Meagan: I've been there too, not nearly as intense as you. You went through a lot. I just had an unsupportive provider from the get-go. I ended up walking down to the OR in general, but we have these experiences, but we still grow from them. Rebecca: Absolutely. Meagan: I mean, I heard little nuggets within your story like bonding with your husband, having faith in your body, working through it, experiencing labor, having support, but are there any other things that you would tell our Women of Strength, our listeners, especially if something doesn't happen exactly as planned? Rebecca: Yeah. There are a couple of different things. The first one was all throughout when I was prepping for labor in particular, especially for dealing with pain, the word that kept coming up and coming up was surrender. I kept thinking, “Surrender to the contraction. Surrender to the sensation.” I always applied that very specifically to labor and labor pains, but I want people to take it a step further and just be like, surrender to your birth however it's going to happen because even if you do everything right and you do all of the steps, there are no guarantees in birth that you are going to have the outcome that you wanted. Even if you have a good outcome, most likely, there's going to be something about it that was unexpected or wasn't perfect so just try to surrender to the whole experience. Yeah, of course, surrender to the contractions. Surrender to the labor, but surrender to the whole experience and the fact that you can't control it. That doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong. Meagan: Yeah. Rebecca: That's the other thing. I hear it a lot in VBAC and I understand why people use this word, but I feel a little bit, I guess I would say use some caution in using it. A lot of people label their VBAC as a redemption or redemptive. You own whatever experience you have. I'm sure it is redemptive, but I guess what I would say is that we don't need to redeem ourselves. There is nothing we did wrong that we have to have redemption for. Can the experience feel redemptive? Absolutely, but I don't want women to then apply that to themselves like, “I need redemption because I failed at something.” You are making the best decision for yourself and your child with the information that you have at that moment. That is what parenting is all about. You can't control anything when you become a parent either. There are always going to be these little decisions you have to make that are unexpected or huge decisions. I think that was the difference between this C-section for me and the last one was the last one, I didn't feel like I had a choice. With this one, every step of the way, I was given choices by my midwife with my husband. We had time to talk through things. We had time to think through things. We made the choices that we felt were the best choices at the moment. So those are the two things I would really say. Surrender to your whole experience because you have no idea what it's going to bring and you don't need redemption because you are already being the best mom that you can possibly be or the best birthing parent that you can possibly be just by being in the moment and making those good decisions with the information that you have. Meagan: I love that so much. I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that. Rebeca: Yeah, absolutely. 50:43 Signs of wonky positioningMeagan: I want to dial into that. The swelling of the cervix, the “stalling” of this labor and I'm putting it in quotes, but it does happen and sometimes despite all of our efforts, it doesn't change and sometimes it does change, but I wanted to talk about the swelling of the cervix and what that really means and what kind of signs we can look out for to know that we've maybe got a baby in a wonky position that could cause a swollen cervix and then what we can do. I mean, just like you were talking about, we were talking about how you just needed your husband to hold your butt together. That is a sign. If we are having all back or butt labor, that could mean a sign that a baby is in an OP or occiput posterior position. That doesn't always cause a swollen cervix or a delay or a stall in labor or anything like that, but it can.Another position is called asynclitic and that's where the head is kind of tipped to the side a little bit and we're not coming down with a nice chin-tucked position into the pelvis. Another one is where the chin is extended or we're in that military position. I've also seen it sometimes in a transverse. It's like a transverse asynclitic. I don't know exactly what that one is where the head is back, the chin is up, and we're in an asynclitic position. We're not looking straight up. Those are positions that may mean our babies are in a less-ideal position. Some of the things are prodromal labor beforehand. You had mentioned that. That means sometimes there is a baby that needs help getting in a different position or a back labor or a butt labor. A coupling pattern where there are two contractions and then there is a big break and then there's a big strong one. Our body is trying to get that baby to rotate. Rebecca: Yep. I did have really long contractions and I did have some double peaks so that makes sense to me.Meagan: Yes. Yes. I call them coupling contractions where that's what they can do. Our body is brilliant. It's trying to rotate these babies and work with us, but sometimes, it's more difficult and sometimes we have to help our body by rotating and moving and working with the pelvis in things like this. 53:31 What to doSome of the things we can do, it sounds really weird and I saw this from a nurse years ago and I was like, “What is she doing?” Then I was like, “Oh my gosh, it worked.” We had an anterior lip where it was swelling on the one side. She said, “I want you to get in the biggest fetal position that you can, the tightest fetal position.” We're holding her even around and imagine a 9-month belly. So it was a little difficult to wrap ourselves around it, but we brought knees all the way to her chest, had her wrap around her knees like this and she laid there. We had to do a lot of counterpressure. Rebecca: Yeah, I can imagine. Meagan: Because that was not a comfortable position. We did five contractions like that and it was hard, but she said, “I want to do it. I want to do it.” We got into it with lots of counterpressure then we did, I don't know what you call it, but we did the throne where you sit up feet to feet, knees out, but after that contraction, she got a check and the lip was gone. That was something that was kind of cool that I had never heard of. I had been a doula for years then I saw this and I was like, “Huh, okay.” I haven't seen anyone do that. Rebecca: Yeah. I read a lot of the books and I didn't see that anywhere. Meagan: Never saw it anywhere, but yeah. This nurse here in Utah was like, “I know just the trick.” She did it and I was like, “Whoa, okay.” Yeah. Some people will say that sometimes ice, there is a circulation issue and sometimes ice can actually stop circulation. Sometimes ice isn't the best and then Arnica or Benadryl. You mentioned Benadryl that they wouldn't give you but they mentioned it. I don't even know how to say the word. It's actually something that I just was talking to a labor and delivery nurse in our community who wants a VBAC. It's Cemicifuga. I don't even know actually, you guys. I don't know how to pronounce it, but those, I've seen arnica, out-of-hospital midwives will use or getting into a tub. Sometimes that can or sometimes an epidural because it can offer relaxation. But then that always and then yeah, just moving, moving, and working with position. But then sometimes, despite all of our efforts, just like cute Rebecca, for whatever reason it doesn't change. That's when we have to surrender on our whole experience and make the choice that is best for us at that point. If that's a repeat Cesarean, that's a repeat Cesarean. Repeat Cesareans can also be healing. Rebecca: Yeah. I would say this was because I definitely felt totally different about the experience afterward. I still mourned it of course and you will, but I felt much more empowered and I got so much out of just going through the labor process that I wouldn't give it up for the world. It still was healing for me for sure. 57:00 Why you shouldn't skip the repeat Cesarean storiesMeagan: I love that. Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us, being here with us today, and talking about swollen cervixes. Rebecca: Yeah. I hope people actually click on this. I know when I was preparing for VBAC, I was kind of guilty of, “Oh, a repeat Cesarean, I don't want to listen to this one.” So again, hopefully, people will be open because you never know what your story is, or maybe you'll come back and find it after you've had a repeat Cesarean and feel proud of yourself for everything that you did because I think hearing these stories after you've had a repeat Cesarean could be really helpful. Meagan: Absolutely. Just like they are helpful after having a Cesarean and preparing for a VBAC, after having a repeat Cesarean, these stories can be very healing and validating as well. These stories, I know that there are so many people out there who won't click or will avoid them because they don't want to even think or go there, but a lot of these stories with repeat Cesareans actually offer tools that can help heal if that does happen and ways that you can prepare for if that does happen because it's any birth. I mean obviously, look at all of us. There are hundreds of us and thousands of us who have had an unexpected Cesarean. We weren't planning on that Rebecca: No. Meagan: So preparing before for all outcomes is so powerful. Rebecca: Definitely. Definitely. Have that backup plan because I didn't even have one at all for my first and I was really glad I had it for my second. Meagan: Yes. Oh, well thank you again so much for being here with us today, and congratulations on your baby. Rebecca: Thank you. Thanks for hearing my story. I love what you do and I think it's really, really important, so thank you. Meagan: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Join us for the birth story of Lauren, who shares her experiences between her two births. Her first birth was unmedicated induction at 37 weeks due to high blood pressure, which led to pushing for four hours. For her second birth, despite the baby being in unstable lie (flipping positions from breech to head down frequently), a successful ECV leads to another induction where she pushed for only 12 minutes! Lauren provides valuable insights into how she prepared physically and mentally for her second birth. Gina and Roxanne, provide professional advice on dealing with an unstable lie. They also discuss the importance of having options in case of a breech birth, and being able to advocate for oneself in a hospital setting. In This Episode: 00:00 Introduction and Welcome 01:11 Guest Introduction: Lauren 01:42 Lauren's Pregnancy and Birth Preparation 03:20 Dealing with a Breech Baby 06:23 The ECV Experience and Induction 09:50 Reflections on the Birth Experience 18:32 Testimonial: Birth Education Course  19:44 Understanding Unstable Lie 23:04 Conclusion and Offerings from MamasteFit

From Medwives, ECV, and GBS to Family Births with Rachel Kirk Watch this episode HERE Longtime Free Birth Society Member, Rachel Kirk, is finally on the show today sharing her 3 birth stories, culminating in a true family birth that was attended by her sister, mother, father, and sons. How cute is that!? When Rachel's chosen birth center medwives threatened to drop her care, coerced her into an ECV for her breech baby, and then never answered her calls during labor, she decided for her next birth she would just do it on her own. Fully supported by her family, she went on to freebirth her second and third sons at home. With her mother supporting her, and her father as photographer, she gave birth to her perfect baby boys. Here's what you'll hear: How Rachel wanted to be a compliant patient in order to have a “natural” birth center birth How she found out at 37 weeks that her baby was breech and was coerced into an ECV to maintain her care with the birth center How she went into labor and called the birth center for hours, and after them never answering she reluctantly went to the hospital to give birth How when she got pregnant with her 2nd she knew she couldn't trust the birth center, so she decided she would just do it herself How her decision was supported by her whole family, including her sister who later went on to freebirth How easy and incredible giving birth to her 2nd son was when she was left alone to do whatever she wanted How different this labor was to her first two and the pain she endured to birth her baby How special, and unique it is to have birth be a normal family event, that even her little brother called into work to have the day free The Freebirth Starter Kit is HERE! This is a completely free, highly-curated collection of educational and inspiring resources from Emilee Saldaya, that is sure to change your life. THE INITIATED WOMAN Welcoming You Into the Sacred Secrets of Womanhood Our FREE 3-part live event with Nancy Lucina & Kristin Hauser Join us on a transformative journey, an immersion into the heart and soul of independent midwifery. The Midwife Within: Our 5-Day Intensive Retreat Led by Elder Midwife Sister MorningStar and Emilee Saldaya. Get your tickets now! Our newest program COMPASS is a groundbreaking self-study program for women embarking on the path of sovereign birth reclamation and authentic midwifery. It's everything you need to anchor yourself firmly in the realm of sovereign birth, and to gain the confidence you need to leave the system. If this episode inspires you somehow, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and let us know your biggest takeaway–whether it's inspired you to freebirth or dive deeper into the sovereign birth paradigm. And while you're here, follow us on Instagram @freebirthsociety for more daily inspiration on freebirth, the sovereign birth paradigm, authentic midwifery and so much more. Ready to share your freebirth story with us? We'd love to hear it! Click here to submit it. The Complete Guide to Freebirth is a self-guided online intensive course that will teach you everything you need to know about how to birth freely and in your power. Click here to get instant access now.

Join us on this episode of the Birth Journeys as Victoria shares how her planned homebirth turned into a hospital transfer, an unexpected diagnosis for her baby and all that transpired afterwards. She also shares about her second birth that ended up being a redemptive experience even with unexpected changes again.  This episode covers midwifery care, homebirth transfer, cerebral palsy diagnosis, NICU stay, exclusively pumping, external cephalic version (ECV) and induction. Resources: Real Food for Gestational Diabetes: An Effective Alternative to the Conventional Nutrition Approach https://a.co/d/9shnyLW Real Food for Pregnancy: The Science and Wisdom of Optimal Prenatal Nutrition https://a.co/d/0fdxLov Birthing from Within: An Extra-Ordinary Guide to Childbirth Preparation https://a.co/d/cnObWuj Reach Victoria here:  IG: https://instagram.com/victorialynnprince?igshid=MzMyNGUyNmU2YQ%3D%3D&utm_source=qr

Originally released on October 18 on Substack.     Well, this was supposed to be a short, well-planned out episode of the Emerald City Video podcast… but I guess that you all know us better than we do. We went longer than expected. This week/month we start a new series of newsy discussions on the state of physical media. This is the Emerald City Video Podcast after all, we started this whole thing based off of working at video rental stores obsessed with movies that we could hold in our hands. The past month has had it's ups and downs when it comes to movies in a tangible form - Netflix ditched its DVD rental site but at the same time we've seen the largest number of discs be made ever. It's an odd time for the Luddite movie appreciator. https://comicbook.com/movies/news/2023-set-to-break-the-record-for-most-dvd-releases-ever-but-theres-a-catch According to the report, the total number of titles released in 2023 is on pace to be over 28,000 -- that's more than 5,000 more than last year...which is the current record-holder for the most titles ever released on disc. The number of titles has been creeping upwards since 2016, with  the pandemic marking a big increase. Looking at a chart included in the story, it appears the high water mark for official releases was 2006, just prior to the release of the Blu-ray format. The numbers crept downward after that, before suddenly getting markedly higher beginning in 2021.  Well, I won't tease too much of the episode here, other than to say physical is here to stay. The links we mention in the show are below. I do apologize for not really reading that one oped well enough to see what they were going for. You'll understand what I'm talking about when we get to it. We're now uploading every episode of ECV on YouTube with video - whether you like looking at our ugly mugs or not.   Subscribe now Netflix to open its own physical stores and restaurants https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/netflix-ending-dvds-warning-film-1234831403/ https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/netflix-permanent-store-restaurant-launch-2025-1235756145/ Collectors say "there is an absolute need for physical media" as Best Buy halts in-store sales https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/collectors-say-there-is-an-absolute-need-for-physical-media-as-best-buy-halts-in-store-sales/ Walmart discontinuing physical games  https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/walmart-discontinuing-physical-games-media-xbox-2024/ Walmart is reportedly going to stop carrying physical games for select platforms next year. Over the last decade or so, we have seen a major rise in digital content.  Physical media and censorship - oped https://www.michigansthumb.com/opinion/article/internet-unforeseen-medium-orwell-bradbury-s-18414808.php Physical books and media are something protected not only by law but also by history. Government seizures of physical property, especially books, are forever associated with regimes like Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, to the point where any attempt by the government or other powerful group to take them would immediately be met with hostility, even if one political party or another didn't agree with what it had to say. On the internet, however, if someone wants to edit a Wikipedia article or change someone's name in the credits of a movie (like they did with Elliot Page's name on Netflix in the credits of "Inception") they don't have to take anything. They just have to quietly alter it and nobody will be able to do a thing about it. It won't be seen as totalitarian or taking away people's freedoms or rewriting history. The Digital-Only Era Is Here, and I'm Ready For It https://www.ign.com/articles/the-digital-only-era-is-here-and-im-ready-for-it But rather than lament its passing, it helped clarify my priorities. Which games do I want to own? And which games do I only want to own physically? This kind of thinking makes the games I do go out and purchase physical editions of that much more special, and my collection of physical media isn't just “stuff I like” but “stuff I love.” Pete Davidson Is Hoping to Make Money by Collecting Thousands of Sealed VHS Tapes: ‘It's My GameStop' https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/a/alex-ocho/pete-davidson-money-vhs-tapes 20 secs into video - TLDR got really high, realized that they might become profitable. 

Chloe's story is one of encouragement. She shared her testimony of how she found Jesus, left the New Age and birthed her first baby at home... who was breech! She talks about not walking in fear, her experience with an ECV and shares a major twist and turn in her birth story.  She shares the wisdom that something doesn't have to be perfect to be good. We don't need to compare our birth story to someone else's. Sometimes birth is really hard... that doesn't mean it was bad. I pray you are inspired and encouraged by Chloe's story. God has a plan and a purpose for your story no matter what it looks like! He is always with you and we can hold onto that promise.   Connect with Chloe: Instagram: @amongtheolives Email: amongtheolives@gmail.com Website: amongtheolives.com   FREE 3 DAY TRAINING (Nov 15th-17th)- Peaceful Homebirth Blueprint: From Dreams to Reality   RSVP DAY 1: https://fb.me/e/335oZARyt RSVP DAY 2: https://fb.me/e/1nVjvFdCu  RSVP DAY 3: https://fb.me/e/4MVPr6zIc    Join the Peaceful Homebirth Community to submit homework: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulhomebirth/ 

Mike, Rikki, & Pam are here today answering your awesome Listener Questions! Today we discuss where you might park a larger RV if the lot is full at your resort, possible concerns for a guest traveling with an ECV at rope drop from Coronado Springs, benefits of a Disney Cruise over a Walt Disney World vacation for parents of teens, a discussion of "what would you do?" if you had a very tall 2 year old at Walt Disney World, more "small moments" that make Walt Disney World amazing, and much more! We hope you enjoy today's show!  Please visit our website at www.beourguestpodcast.com.  Thank you so much for your support of our podcast! Become a Patron of the show at www.Patreon.com/BeOurGuestPodcast.  Also, please follow the show on Twitter @BeOurGuestMike and on Facebook at www.facebook.com/beourguestpodcast.   Thanks to our friends at The Magic For Less Travel for sponsoring today's podcast!

In this week's episode, Juliette shares her two birth stories. For her first birth, Juliette was preparing for a vaginal birth, but then found out that her baby was breech at 32 weeks. At 37 weeks, she opted for an ECV, but her baby did not tolerate the procedure, and she went in for a C-section that very day. This experience left her feeling a lot of anger and defeat after having spent months getting educated and working hard for the experience she dreamed of having. For her second birth, Juliette planned for a VBAC, and after months of really focusing on changing her mindset and birth preparation, Juliette was able to have a successful vaginal birth and a positive, redemptive birth experience.  At the end of this episode, Gina and Roxanne discuss the differences between having a Birth Path versus a Birth Plan, and how this can help you have the most positive experience possible. Check out Birth Mapping here: https://birthmap.life/?amp=1 Our Birth Map Freebie Link: https://mamastefit.com/birth-plan-guide/ In This Episode: 0:00 Introductions 01:32 Juliette's Prep for Birth 04:44 Finding Out Baby is Frank Breech 06:30 ECV Turned C-Section  15:04 Bonding with Baby and Processing Her C-Section 16:19 Scar Mobilization with MamasteFit 18:22 Juliette Preps for Her Second Birth 24:25 Juliette Passes Her Due Date, Finally Labor Starts! 33:30 Opting for the Epidural 37:22 Pushing and a Successful VBAC 40:37 Processing Both Births 42:51 Birth Paths VS Birth Plans

Today on the podcast, Sarah joins us from Minnesota. Sarah got COVID-19 very early on in her first pregnancy during the height of the pandemic. The protocol at her practice was to recommend a precautionary 39-week induction. Sarah trusted her doctor and consented to the induction along with other interventions that were suggested. Her birth ended in a Cesarean under general anesthesia. During recovery, Sarah's knees would buckle to the point where she needed assistance walking and fell until the problem slowly resolved. When she achieved her VBAC, Sarah was able to immediately walk unassisted. She wasn't groggy from just having had anesthesia. Her throat didn't hurt. She got the immediate skin-to-skin she missed the first time.Sarah is such an amazing example of how powerful a VBAC birth can be, especially with the right prep and the right team. We just love how hands-off and supportive her doctor was. Sarah went into her birth mentally and physically strong. She labored hard, stayed calm, and pushed her baby boy out in 20 minutes!Additional LinksNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link. We have a story for you today coming from Minnesota. We have our friend, Sarah. And Sarah, tell me. Did you have your babies both in Minnesota or have you moved since then? Sarah: Yes, both in Minnesota. Meagan: Both in Minnesota. All right, so Minnesota parents, listen up. This is a wonderful episode in your area. Review of the WeekAs always, we have a Review of the week but first I want to talk a little bit about COVID-19. Sarah and I were just talking about how we have seen so many COVID-19 stories coming through. They had their C-section through COVID-19 or even had their VBAC during COVID-19 and then now they have gone on to VBAC. There is definitely a trend of situations that we are seeing so I'm just so curious today. Go comment on today's episode and let us know if you have any relation, but a lot of providers are wanting to induce if you have the virus, COVID-19. Sarah, that was kind of the case with you, right? They wanted to induce because you had COVID-19. Sarah: Yes. That was kind of the standard of care at that point. Meagan: Yes, which is kind of interesting to think about the new standard of care. I really am curious to see one day what the Cesarean rates did during COVID-19. You know, there is some evidence here and there on it, but I'm really curious to see what the Cesarean rate did because we do have a lot of people saying that they were induced because they had COVID and then they ended in a Cesarean. So we're going to talk a little bit. She's going to share her birth and her induction story that then led to her VBAC. But of course, we have that review. It is by Raving Abbeh and the title is “Confidence.” It says, “I found this podcast at 34 weeks pregnant and it helped me gain the confidence to fight for my chance and get a VBAC. I hope to submit a success story in a few weeks.” And guess what? This was also during 2020, so Raving Abbeh, if you haven't submitted your story, we would love you to and as always, you guys, we're always accepting stories. We definitely record in chunks, so know that if it takes time, that doesn't mean you haven't been chosen or you will never be chosen, but if you want to submit your story, go to thevbaclink.com/share. Sarah's StoriesMeagan: Okay, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Sarah: I'm so excited. Meagan: I'm so excited. I'm so, so excited. Well, tell us more about this 39-week induction and why they were saying it was the new norm. It was the protocol, right? Sarah: Yes. So at this time, I was working full-time in the hospital where I gave birth as a radiographer– an X-ray tech. I was kind of in the world a little bit. It was definitely not a fun time to work in the hospital. I actually tested positive when I was 8 weeks pregnant, so very newly pregnant. I was seeing family med for my provider and what they were doing at that time, they said, “Okay. This is what's going to be different. You're going to meet with a high-risk OB who specialized in COVID.” I would have growth ultrasounds every 4 weeks and then also, they were recommending this induction at 39 weeks. When I asked about that, what she said was that they had seen issues with the placenta. That was the reason that they had. I actually looked back on it now and I think in the study, they really only had 16 pregnant people so that was what they were basing this all off on. Meagan: Which is really nothing to start making a protocol so wide-ranged. Sarah: Right. Right. And actually, right now, my sister-in-law had COVID and she's pregnant. She had COVID at the same time I did at 8 weeks, but now it's 2023 and her doctor is not doing the growth ultrasounds. They're not recommending induction. There actually is nothing different with her current, right-now pregnancy which I find interesting. Meagan: Interesting, right? Right? Sarah: But again, it can range. Meagan: In 2020, it's interesting because they were like, “Oh, we're going to have you with this provider who specializes in COVID pregnancies,” but how does someone specialize that fast? Sarah: Right. The person that was the specialized person was the highest-up person in the department of OB. Meagan: Okay, so definitely a specialized OB. Okay. Sarah: Right. I actually only ended up meeting up with her one time because if there was anything abnormal, that's when I would go to her but my pregnancy was completely normal. I had no issues related to COVID or related to anything else which was obviously a blessing, but kind of also a bummer because now, I'm going to have this completely unnecessary induction at 39 weeks.Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: She did mention at the time that if I wanted to go past 39 weeks, I could definitely make that choice but she would do NSTs. Now after learning so much and being where I am now, I would have been like, “Okay. Let's go longer and do NSTs,” but at the time as a first-time parent, I was like, “That sounds kind of weird. Let's just do what you think.” Meagan: It sounds intense with all of these extra visits. It's a lot. It sounds like a lot. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise, about that pregnancy, being a first-time parent and having this medical background, it's no surprise probably that my attitudes towards the doctors were that I completely trusted their knowledge with the COVID stuff because it was so new. Meagan: Oh yeah, and scary. Sarah: Yeah, definitely, but I was completely unaware that there was such a wide range of ways to treat pregnancies and so many different attitudes on how to birth babies. I was just clueless to the whole thing about the cascade of interventions and why do inductions have an increased risk of C-section? I was completely clueless to it. I am just used to with a doctor, you have a certain condition and there are ways to treat it. It was very narrow. But with birth, there are midwives. There are doulas. There are so many different ways to treat someone's birth and pregnancy that was just over my head. When people would ask me, “Oh, why are you having an induction?” and tell me that maybe I shouldn't do that, I was like, “Oh, well why wouldn't I when they say that is the best thing to do for this COVID situation?” For me, it was like, “Well, they know better than me.” Meagan: Right, yeah. Sarah: I think you say all the time that you don't know what you don't know. Meagan: You don't know what you don't know and you can't judge yourself for not knowing what you don't know. Sarah: Yes. I definitely had to work through forgiving myself for sure. Meagan: Yeah. You have to take the information. I think I talked about this too. My husband had said this. We took the information we were given and made the best choice that we felt we had with the information provided. Sarah:  Yes. Meagan: Right? And that's what you did. Sarah: Right. Honestly, it's funny now. Even just preparing for birth in general, take away the COVID part, it's kind of funny how I did basically nothing to prepare for birth. I just focused on my registry and other things like that after the baby got there. It was kind of because I had this, “Oh if I go with the flow, I'll have the best outcome. I don't want to put too many expectations on myself. I don't want to pressure myself. I'm just going to go with the flow. I don't know how my body is going to handle it,” which does have a place. There is a goodness to that, but I think I was a little too extreme where I was like, “My mom had C-sections. I know if that happens, it happens.” It was just very, “Whatever happens, happens.” Now, I look back and I'm like, “Well, now all I did was have no tools in my toolbox to deal with pain, labor, or resources to help make those hard decisions that I was going to have to make.” I had nothing in the background to help me with that. Meagan: No tools in your toolbox. Sarah: Exactly. That's why it was very different for my second birth but at that time, I was like, “Okay, whatever happens, happens. I don't know what's going to happen to me or how my body is going to take it, so we'll just see what happens.” I was scheduled at 39 weeks on a Monday and actually, that Friday before, they called me and said, “Hey, do you want to come in early? We have a lot of people scheduled on Monday.” I was like, “Oh, I'm excited to meet my baby. I'll go in even earlier,” which is like, oh. Okay. That weekend, we were actually moving into our new house an hour away. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: We actually spent one night at our new house and the next day we drove back to Rochester to have our baby but we were so excited. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. Sarah: I wasn't even thinking about anything else. We were scheduled for a 7:00 PM Saturday appointment then. When I got there, I was completely 0% dilated. Closed. 0, 0, 0, -3 station. Furthest from ready. Meagan: Not ready to have a baby, yeah. Sarah: No. So they started me with Cytotec overnight and in the morning, they placed the Cook catheter then they started Pitocin right after. I faintly remember watching Beauty and the Beast bouncing on a ball, but that was the extent of any movement in my labor. Like I said, I didn't prepare for anything. I just was like, “Oh, bounce on a ball. Everyone says that's good.” I didn't do much. But what did start happening was the baby was having decels, not liking the Pitocin, so I had to get moved from side to side. I was lying on the bed– not the best position to have the baby not be so high up. Meagan: Right. Sarah: But then by 10:00 AM, they took out the Cook catheter. I was 4 centimeters dilated. Things were moving along. But then at 11:00, they had to turn down the Pitocin because again, the baby was still not tolerating it very well. Then I felt a big pop in my belly and I was like, “Oh, is this what it feels like when your water breaks?” I was excited. I'm like, “Oh, that sounded like a balloon popping.” So they came in and they were like, “No, we don't see anything. Your water didn't break.” I was like, “Oh, okay sure.” Meagan: I felt something. Sarah: So then a half hour later, they came back in because they had to actually turn off the Pitocin because the baby still wasn't happy. They checked me and they're like, “Oh, there's all your water,” and it gushed out on them. So I was like, “Okay, well at least I know that I can trust my intuition even though you didn't quite believe me.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: But I'm not crazy. It did break. The contractions were getting really intense at this point. I tried laughing gas. It didn't really work. At that point, I decided, “Okay. I'm ready for an epidural. I feel like I've gotten as far as I can with what I prepared,” which was nothing. I actually found out this after the fact, but at this point, they actually gave me medicine to stop my contractions. Meagan: Like terbutaline or something?Sarah: Yes, exactly. They gave me that at this point. I actually have no recollection of this, but I was able to look at my records after the fact and I was like, “Oh, I never knew they even gave me that.” Apparently, they gave me that to stop things or slow them down or whatever. I was about 5 centimeters dilated at this point and they placed the epidural. Everything went smoothly with that and then an hour later, they were like, “Oh, we're going to start the Pitocin again.” I was like, “Okay.” I was 5 centimeters at that point and then 40 minutes later, they checked me and I was 9 centimeters. Meagan: Whoa, so your body went into total relaxation mode and dilated. Sarah: Yes. Yes. I was like, “Cool. That was fast.” They had just sent away the doctor. They had to call her back. Shortly after that, I was at 10 centimeters, ready to go. This is when they had me start pushing. One important part that I know now is that I don't remember ever feeling pressure or the urge to push or anything like that. They were just like, “Okay. It's time to push.” I'm like, “Okay.”I did end up pushing for about 3 hours. They did let me try a few different positions. They tried to turn down my epidural to help too, but she never really progressed past that zero station. So nothing was happening. I was mostly on my back for all of it.I remember them saying that they would let me push for the most at 4 hours, but at the 3-hour mark, I was exhausted. I felt like we had made no progress. I was just like, “Nothing's going to change in another hour at this point for me. I don't know what I'm doing. You try to tell me how to push. I still don't know.” Meagan: Yeah. You're just like, “I'm tired.” Sarah: Exactly. The contractions were beginning to be really painful. Again, I didn't really have a way to cope with them. The pushing wasn't working so I consented to the C-section. I just remember feeling so defeated and just crying, being wheeled into the OR. My doctor stayed right by my head and talked to me until my husband was supposed to come in because I kept saying, “Hey, I feel these contractions. They are strong.” They were trying to give me all of the medicine to numb me enough. They were doing the prick test to make sure that I couldn't feel it and I just remember it was really hard because my nose was plugged up from crying. I felt like I couldn't breathe anyway. I wasn't sure about the pokes. I was like, “They are sharp to me. I feel them. They don't feel like pressure. They feel sharp.” They were like, “Okay. Well, we're going to have to put you under.” They put the mask on me. I breathed in and went to sleep. Meagan: And you were gone. Sarah: Yep. Then I was gone. Meagan: Your husband probably never came in then? Sarah: So he did get to go into the OR. She was born. They let him go in so he was all gowned up. He was in the OR. He kind of tells it like, “Yeah, it was so weird. I looked over and there you were on the table.” He wasn't so close to me. Meagan: Sleeping. Sarah: But yeah. I was sleeping. He did get to do skin-to-skin. They let him do that in the OR which was really nice. They got a bunch of pictures of her getting weighed and him cutting the cord in there so it was nice to have some of those pictures that I can look back on. Meagan: Right. Sarah: That's something. Meagan: Right, yeah. It helps you relate, too, when you're not awake. Sarah: Exactly. It was definitely a weird experience. But when I did come to, apparently, I had been awake longer but you know how that works. When you're waking up from anesthesia, it's kind of weird. But apparently, when I woke up, they told me that I was just like, “Where's the baby? Where's the baby? Where's the baby?” They rushed me back. I don't remember any of that, but what I do remember is when I woke up, my throat was so sore and hurt so bad. But she was on me and she latched immediately and started feeding so that was really special. Meagan: Yes. Sarah: Just how she was able to eat right away and I didn't have any problems with that which was really nice. I know that can happen sometimes. That's basically that birth. Meagan: An unexpected ending and a less-ideal situation, but then to come out and have things work out really nicely was probably really healing and comforting. Sarah: Yes. Right away, I was definitely happy. She was healthy. I was okay. She was eating. But I remember just recovering from a C-section, you're in a fog. I remember my legs being in those machines to keep the blood flowing, having a catheter, having my sore throat, and whispering to talk. That kind of thing was definitely not a fun recovery in that aspect right immediately after. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: I actually had a really weird thing. I had problems with my knees. Meagan: Oh. Sarah: I have never heard anyone else talk about this. Meagan: Interesting, like wobbly and strong? Sarah: So what happened was once they took out the catheter and then they give you the, “Okay, it's time to try to go to the bathroom for the first time.” When I tried to stand up, my knees would just buckle. The first day, I had to have two people assist me to the bathroom. The second day, it was also a two-assist. Slowly, they started to not always buckle. I was in the hospital, I think, for four days. Four or five days. Eventually, they wouldn't buckle but when I got home, they would buckle when I went upstairs. I did fall twice but slowly, they did get better. It was fine. It was just if I unexpectedly took a step. My cat scared me and I stepped and then I would fall because my knee wasn't expecting it. Meagan: I just looked it up because I am legitimately curious. It says, “Acute lower limb compartment syndrome after a Cesarean.” Sarah: Oh. Hmm. Meagan: Interesting. So it can happen. Sarah: Interesting. I was just kind of assuming it was a mix of me being numbed from the waist down for hours and then my legs being up in the air for hours and then being in the C-section, and then also laying down. Do you know what I mean? Something with that, but no doctor or anything ever said anything to me about it. They were just like, “Oh, okay. That's weird.” Meagan: Yeah. Really, really interesting. It says that it's rare. Sarah: Oh. Meagan: It's pretty rare, so you get to be in one of those rare groups. Thank you for sharing. Sarah: Yeah, so otherwise, I hadn't really fully processed the birth but every time I would tell my birth story, I would choke up or cry and that's when I realized, “Oh, maybe I didn't really like that very much” because at first, you're just happy the baby is okay and you're okay. I actually remember right afterward, I was like, “Oh, okay for any other baby, I'll just schedule a C-section. This time it will be planned and I'm going to be awake for it.” I honestly wasn't even thinking about VBAC right away. I was just like, “Oh, the future will be easier. It will be fine.” But when my daughter was around 6 months old, I started to listen to The Birth Hour and I found myself searching C-section stories, looking for things like mine which led me to hearing VBAC stories, searching those out, and then finally finding The VBAC Link. That was the big game changer. I am so appreciative of you guys having this podcast and keeping it going on and all that. Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: Such an inspiration. I learned so much even from both podcasts about interventions, doulas, birth teams, and most importantly, trusting in a woman's body. It kind of leads me to this big thing. It's like, why do we have to go through some sort of trauma to become an advocate for women and educate ourselves? Meagan: Right? Sarah: I feel like that's such a theme. Meagan: It's so true though. It's so true. Why do we have to go through a really crappy experience? It doesn't always have to be crappy. I'm not saying C-sections are crappy, but a big experience to have passion and to feel that motivation behind that.Sarah: Exactly. Yep. Sometimes, it's so hard because it's like when you talk to someone who hasn't been affected by this kind of situation where it doesn't go their way in the hospital, it sounds like a conspiracy theory. “You can't trust the doctors.” That's not what we're saying. It's so much more than that. Meagan: It is. It really is. It's not even just in birth. Truly, right? My husband does not do what he does, I think, mainly just because he didn't want to do it one day. It was like, “Hey, this really unfortunate situation happened to someone I love and I want to be available in a different manner to help them or help anybody else.” So he took on his profession. It's like IBCLCs– I'm sure a lot of them have had unfortunate or poor nursing experiences and are like, “We want to help other people have better experiences.”Sarah: Yes, because it's the information that, “Oh, wow.” It makes complete sense that, “Oh, things might go a little bit better if you let your body naturally do it.” Oh, well yeah. That makes sense. It makes sense that, “Oh, if I have someone who's trained in positioning, maybe if I move my body in this way, then I can get my baby in a better position to come out better. Oh, that makes sense. Why didn't I know that? Why didn't my doctor say, ‘Hey, there are some positions that can help.'” It's confusing to me. It's like, well that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So obviously, I just dove right into all of the VBAC stuff and learning all about that and listening to different stories. I was super excited for my next pregnancy because I had made the decision, “Yes. I'm going to go for a VBAC and I'm super excited about it.” I was ready to do all of the things to make it more successful. We got pregnant when my daughter was around 15 months old. We wanted a two-year age gap and they're both two years apart in April so that worked out for us. Meagan: Perfectly, yeah. Sarah: So the things I did to make it more successful– they are all things that people on this podcast talk about. For physical things, it was workouts that focused on birth prep. I didn't do anything crazy like walking for miles and miles every day. I just did the minimal which was doing some exercises every day for hips opening, cat/cow, and all of that stuff. I did the Miles Circuit later on in pregnancy every day. I ate my dates every day. I drank my tea.Then I think the biggest thing, too, is mentally preparing. For mentally preparing, I got my doula. I really love that the doula does the meetings before the birth. I didn't even know that when I had heard people talk about doulas but meeting before and talking about what birth plan I wanted, what things– Meagan: Your desires. Sarah: Exactly and what things could happen. I'm like, “This would be so helpful for a first-time parent to know all of this stuff.” I wish I had gotten her with my first. Also, just talking about coping mechanisms, what are some positions that we are going to do, talk about scenarios. It was great. Then I also, for mentally preparing, I looked up a bunch of different coping mechanisms. I actually did Hypnobabies. I wasn't consistent with the meditation, but it was very helpful to practice the breathing and visualization. Meagan: I did too. I did it as well. Sarah: I was really bad at the meditations so that didn't stick with me, but it was really, really great to practice the breathing and all of that. And honestly, just listening to birth stories is mentally preparing because I would really only focus on positive stories toward the end of my pregnancy. I was like, “Okay, now we are in the home stretch. We are just going to stick to all of the positive ones.” The big thing, too, was finding my provider. I joined The VBAC Cesarean Support Group on Facebook way earlier and everyone had all of the recommendations of who to go to. My provider is actually family med, but he is more like a midwife. Actually, my doula said that he's actually more crunchy than a midwife as a family med. For all of the births that she attended, she said, “He is more hands-off than a midwife.” I'm like, “Wow.” Meagan: Wow, that's cool. Sarah: And what's great is that he attends all of his births so there is no rotating call schedule. Meagan: Which is huge. Sarah: There's no, “Who's going to be there?” He's very trusting of women's bodies. I did my due diligence and I asked him, “How often have you personally seen a uterine rupture? How often do you use the vacuum? How often have you done episiotomies?” You know, so just asking him all of the things. He had really great responses and I felt really solid with him. Meagan: Which is really important, right? To have those conversations also. We know that when they come in and they say, “Hey, do you have any questions?” It's really okay to ask questions. Sarah: Yes. That's the big thing. So because he's not an OB, I had to go do a consult with the OB that he works with in the hospital. The OB who works in the hospital definitely wasn't making me fearful, but there's a certain form you have to fill out that says, “Hey, obviously if you're successful with your TOLAC, that's going to be the safest option for you. But if you're not successful, that's the least safe.” It's easy to plant doubt, but after I saw him again, I asked my provider, “How often do you see it?” It was such a small amount and since he's one of the VBAC go-tos, I felt very confident with him. It was really nice to have that fear taken away in that way. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: And then this is kind of interesting. Just for fun, I did message my old provider at my previous hospital just to see what she would say about my chances for VBAC. I actually messaged her before I was pregnant. I said, “Hey, I am kind of processing and struggling from my C-section. What do you think about my chance for VBAC?” It was just on a message. What she said was, “You did everything you could at that time to have her vaginally, but she just didn't fit your pelvis for whatever reason. We think of fitting as a lock and key situation. Both pieces have to work together to open, so there's no way to know if a future baby would ever fit your pelvis better than she did.” Then she kind of went on. I thought, “Nope.” I'm like, “Nope. I'm not taking that in.” Meagan: Yes. Sarah: It was interesting. Meagan: Thank you so much, but no thanks. Sarah: Exactly.Sarah: Exactly. I'm like, “I don't think she didn't fit my pelvis. That's not a thing.” Meagan: But you know, it's an easy thing for people to say or diagnose. It's like, “Oh, well your baby was perfect. You were perfect, but the two together didn't really match that time.” Sarah: Right. Meagan: That doesn't necessarily mean that's true. We just don't know. Sarah: Again, we can't go back in time and have me try something different. Meagan: Yes, yes. Sarah: But I think it's interesting that she said that. Meagan: It is. Sarah: Again, I talked to my doctor. He's like, “Oh yeah. Great. Let's do it.” Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: He said, “You've got this.” So you know. Otherwise, I'm preparing. This is the funny thing too, again. At first, I didn't have any intention of trying to go unmedicated. At first. I was like, “I definitely want to VBAC,” but I wasn't trying to do that. I was just focused on the VBAC part. But once you hear enough birth stories, you know that if I do all of this preparation and I go as long as I can without this intervention, I'm going to have the best possible chance of a healthy vaginal birth. If it still ends in a C-section, it's because that was what had to happen not because I didn't know any better. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So that's when I was like, “Yes, okay. It makes sense for me to try. I should just try to go unmedicated. I should just do it. Whatever happens, happens.” I still am keeping my go-with-the-flow but with a lot of preparation. It was kind of funny because when I would tell people that, “I'm trying to go unmedicated,” people will say the craziest things to you. Meagan: Right? “I could never.” Sarah: Yes, or “I know someone who did and it was the worst thing they ever chose to do. They said, ‘Never do that.'” It's like, I know and I've heard many, many stories of people doing it and are very happy with the outcome. So definitely right before, I was 37 weeks. I was like, “I'm going to read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth.” Everybody talks about it, but I just wanted to hone in and focus on those unmedicated birth stories and just say, “How did you guys do this? How was it successful?” That was really helpful. I really liked that book. That was really good. Meagan: Yeah. I really like it too. Sarah: Yeah. Otherwise in this pregnancy though, I physically felt really good. I got Braxton Hicks contractions which I didn't have in my first pregnancy. That was definitely new. Meagan: Yes. Probably exciting. Sarah: It was exciting. I was like, “Okay, yeah. Every birth is different.” That was one of the Hypnobabies thing that stuck with me. Each baby is different. Your birth is going to be different. Don't let that fear creep in on you. But at 33 weeks, I found out the baby was breech so that was scary. Meagan: Yeah. It throws you for a loop, right? Sarah: Yes. When I found out that he was breech, I immediately messaged my doula. She gave me Spinning Babies exercises to do every day. I was making sure I was sitting forward and all of that stuff. Then I went to see a chiropractor first and then she also gave me this massage therapist who was trained in breech balancing massage. I went to both of those and the baby was flipped at my next appointment at 35 weeks. Meagan: Yay. Sarah: So I was very happy. The coolest thing with the massage therapist—in our state, I'm pretty sure she is maybe the only one who does this breech balancing massage. She told me because I actually went to do a follow-up appointment. Even though he was already head down, I was like, “Let's just go again to make sure.” She said that she was treating six other breech moms at that time and they had all flipped when I came back from my second appointment. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Sarah: Yeah. I'm always in the groups. I'm like, “If anyone is breech, try this specific breech balancing massage. Yeah.” It's really interesting just listening to her talk about it because she is so knowledgeable about, “Hey, your baby is breech for a reason. You have these muscles that get tightened. Your pelvis is this bowl and if things are in the wrong position, the baby wants to be head down. If I can release all of these muscles and make more space in there, even if the massage might not on its own make your baby flip, but giving your baby that space, then your ECV is more successful if you do that. Meagan: Right. Sarah: I was very happy because I had done all of this work and hyped myself up. I wouldn't want to have to schedule a C-section for this reason after all of that but if it happened, it happened. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: So everything was going good then until my 39-week appointment. I had a high blood pressure reading so I was like, “Oh great.” But my doctor was not worried. He had me do an NST, labs, and monitor at home. I came back in a few days and everything was good. That was nice. Actually, the day that I went back for my follow-up for my high blood pressure was the day that I got my birth records. They had my birth records there for me. I had gone this whole time. I was almost 40 weeks and I was like, “I still really want to see.” Meagan: You had requested them? Sarah: Yeah, and it just took a really long time to get them. When I had that appointment, I was able to get my birth records earlier than I thought. I didn't think I was even going to get them by the time I had the baby. I was able to read through them and kind of work through it. My doula was like, “Oh, do you want to call and talk about it?” I was like, “Yes.” It was kind of like a fear release for me because that night I went into labor. Meagan: Yeah. Did you find anything in there that you didn't know before? Sarah: I mean, that one thing was that terbutaline. I didn't know that. And then I was just curious about some of the dilation. Also, I saw on my records too that the surgeon who did my C-section put, “This patient is a candidate for a TOLAC.” Meagan: Oh yeah. Sarah: It was nice just to have that and to see that the surgeon who did my C-section would put that on my note like, “Yeah. They are a candidate.”Meagan: Yeah, it's helpful. Sarah: Just working through it too was nice to see it in a timeline. So that night was the night I went into labor. At 2:00 AM, I woke up with my contractions. Right away, they were 3-7 minutes apart. I had the same situation three weeks before where I woke up and had contractions that were 3-7 minutes apart, but they fizzled out and didn't come back. I only had that situation one time earlier. So I was like, “Oh, this could be another practice. This could be the real thing.” But they were stronger than the last time. That's the biggest thing too. Even though they were so close together, I was handling them so well that I was like, “I think I'll just wait this out,” which is interesting because if you're a first-time mom, you're like, “Hey, this is 4-1-1. I'm having them.” Meagan: You have to go! Sarah: And they're long. A lot of them were long like at least a minute, but they just weren't strong so I was like, “Okay, well I'll wait.” Then my husband woke up at 4:00 AM. I was like, “Hey, I'm having these contractions.” His response was, “I'd better hurry up and go work. I've got some work to get done.” He's like, “Oh no. I gotta go.” So then he went away to go work on stuff. Then by 6:00 AM, I was like, “Okay.” I had a couple really strong ones so I was like, “Oh.” Then I was also getting back labor so I was like, “All right. Time to text the doula.” I was like, “Hey, this is what's going on.” She was like, “Well, your back pain might be because of the baby's position, so try to do the Miles Circuit. Eat a good breakfast. Hydrate. I'm preparing you for possibly a long day.” I said, “Okay, sounds good.” I had my bagel with cream cheese. I got my Body Armor drinks out, but when I tried to do the Miles Circuit, it was so intense. I could not. The minute I laid down and I had a contraction in the Miles Circuit position, the laying down one, it was like, “Whoa, no.” Meagan: Not gonna happen. Sarah: I'm like, “I think this is time for me to start going into some prep mode here.” So I dimmed the lights in my room. I had my ball but I actually didn't like bouncing on it so I never bounced on it. Meagan: Was it uncomfortable? Sarah: Yeah. For me, that seated position was uncomfortable. For me, I was in a forward-leaning position. I'd lean against the wall and sway or I'd have my husband come. I'd hug him and sway. I'm like, “This is working out okay.” The back labor was a different aspect that was like, “There's got to be something I can do for this back labor.” I messaged her and she's like, “Okay, well obviously have him try to do hip squeezes,” but he wasn't really getting the job done with the hip squeezes. She recommended the shower to also help us see if it's going to calm down or if it will keep going. I got in the shower and it was magic. The heat on the back was perfect. My favorite thing ever, but the hot water ran out after 15 minutes and I was so sad. Meagan: Oh shoot. Sarah: So the hot water ran out and I was like, “Oh man.” I got out of the shower and I was like, “Now we might just have to go to the hospital right now because I need hot water. I want to get in that tub.” That was my dream was getting in the tub. Meagan: Right. Sarah: So my doula checked in with me at this point and asked about the shower. I was like, “Yeah.” I think I was kind of in denial because I was like, “Oh, it's medium intense,” but they were still happening. She was like, “Okay, well maybe you should start heading in as long as they are staying 3-4 minutes consistently for an hour. Go ahead and start heading in.” At this point, she also tells me that she is actually in another birth. Then she joined me with the backup doula so she was at another birth. I was like, “Oh bummer.” But my backup doula ended up being amazing as well. But you know, when you're preparing with someone— Meagan: Can I just say right there that is a real thing? It's usually if you have to have a backup doula, it usually works out so well. Right? Sarah: Yeah, it was so good. Meagan: But like you were saying as I was cutting you off, as you were preparing with someone else, it's hard. Sarah: Yeah, it's kind of a bummer because you know this person so well and you had worked with them, but it worked out perfectly fine too. I really like my backup doula. She's great as well. She told me, again because I was like, “Hey, what can I do for now? We're going to head in probably soon but what else can I do for this back pain?” She was like, “Do you have a heating pack?” I'm like, “Ooh, yes.” I was putting a hot pack on my back which again, wasn't hot enough for me. Meagan: You needed a hot tub. Sarah: It did something. At this point, my daughter had actually woken up because we were still at home. It was about 8:00 and she was so sweet. Every time I'd have a contraction, I'd go into my room. I'd have my calming music on and my swaying but then I would leave and I'd come back out with her. She was just so sad. She wasn't crying, but she had these big tears welling up in her eyes. I would hold her and she would pat my back. She was like, “It's okay.” It's like she knew that something was going on. I was like, “I'm okay. It's okay.” She was just kind of like, “What is going on?” I wasn't making loud, loud noises but I would be doing horse lips through them or moaning. Meagan: Coping. Sarah: Yeah, nothing too crazy, but for her, she could tell that something was going on. Luckily, my mother-in-law and sister-in-law came over shortly after that around 8:30ish. My sister-in-law took my daughter and was like, “Let's go play,” so she was good. She was good. My mother-in-law saved me because she said, “Oh, I will boil hot water.” So she got a big pot and boiled hot water. She put cloths in them and put those on my back. That was amazing. Meagan: I bet that felt really good. Sarah: Right. So at this point, my husband probably should have been getting the cars ready for us to go to the hospital, but instead, he was cleaning the house frantically. Meagan: That was probably his way of coping. “Oh my gosh, this is happening. I'm going to go work and then I'm going to go clean the house.” Sarah: Yes. Yes, so we're like, “Okay, it's time. We've got to get going.” I'm like, “Yeah. I've got to get going.” So finally, we get in the car. My back is soaking wet from these hot towels but they are saving me. Luckily, the drive was only 10 minutes. I had my hot towel in there. It wasn't the most comfortable, but we got there. They checked us in and they moved us to triage. At this point, again, the sitting position was not my position for labor. It was, “Nope, not happening.” I was always kneeling, facing the back of the bed. The back of the bed was up. I held onto it. Then when I was in triage, though, I didn't have my coping mechanisms. I didn't have my hot towels. My next plan that I had was the comb technique. I had packed a couple of combs. I was telling my husband, “All right. Your hip squeezes—” he was trying to find the combs and of course, he couldn't find the combs that I brought. But he did remember that he brought his own comb. Meagan: Hey! Sarah: So I was able to take his comb which I can say RIP to his comb. I used it. There were little comb tings, whatever they are called, the teeth of the comb were everywhere at the end of my birth but it definitely worked. So then every time I would have a contraction, I was pushing on the comb and breathing as they were checking me into triage. But they were able to kind of get the band on me. They gave me an ultrasound to make sure the baby was head down while I was in triage. Then they checked me. The nurse checked me and when she was down there, she was like, “Oh, it's really hard to tell how dilated you are because you have a bulging bag of waters and I really can't tell what you're doing.” She was like, “I think you're almost complete.” I'm like, “Okay.” Meagan: Whoa. Sarah: I'm like, “Okay.” This whole time, she'd been trying to call someone on her radio, but they were really busy. At that point, she was like, “Okay, let's get this room.” She was like, “I'll just wheel you on this bed unless you want to walk.” I'm like, “Actually, I want to walk.” I was actually thinking, “You know what? I think I want the bed that is in the room. The triage beds aren't probably as comfortable.” That's where my mind was so I was like, “Let me just walk.” Meagan: No. Sarah: So they get me in the room and again, my doula is on her way but she's not there yet. It's about, I think, 10:00. My doctor comes in. They put the little IV on my arm in case I need any medicine. All I'm doing right now- Meagan: Hep lock. Sarah: Yes, exactly. All I'm saying is that I just wanted to get in the tub. This is me the whole time in triage. Meagan: I just want the water. Sarah: I want to get in the tub. I want to get in the tub. The comb is helping, but I want to get in the tub. So he comes in. I'm like, “Hey, can I get in the tub?” He's like, “Well, you can but I should probably check you first if you want me to. If you're really close like the nurse thinks, then you'll have to push soon possibly.” I'm like, “Yes. Check me because then, if I'm not, I can get in the tub.” That was in the back of my mind. He checked me. He's down there for a while and I'm finally like, “Okay, you've got to get out.” He's like, “I understand why they are having a hard time. Yes. You have a big, bulging bag of waters. I can tell why she had a hard time and I think you're maybe 7 or 8 centimeters but I can't tell. As soon as the water breaks, you're going to be fast.” I was like, “Sounds like I can get in the tub.” He was like, “Yes, you can.” Meagan: You're like, “Perfect.” Sarah: Perfect. This is when my doula came around this time. She helped get the tub in motion because they were like, “Well, it's going to take a while. We've got to get you on these mobile monitors.” She went in and she got the water going and I was able to get in the tub. The only problem is that once I got in the tub, I was like, “Oh, I think I have to poop,” which is the magic— Meagan: Means you're going to have a baby! Sarah: She was like, “Well if you want, you can sit on the toilet and see if you actually do poop.” I was like, “Sounds like a plan.” I sat on the toilet facing the back of the toilet. I had my hands on my comb. My comb was with me everywhere. That's when I had the scary, scary transition contraction. I was so happy I had her there because she was saying all of the right things and at this point, I can't remember any of them except for her saying to me, “This is the hardest part, but it's also the shortest. You are in transition.” When I heard her, I was like, “Okay, that makes sense.” I was a little shaky. You just feel so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I don't know about this. I'm not sure about this.” Meagan: You start questioning. It's weird. Sarah: It is really, yeah. But she was saying all of the things I needed to hear, so I was good. So then I was like, “Okay, no poop is coming. Let's get back in the tub.” So I got back in the tub, and then I had probably one contraction and then a lab person came to the door and was like, “I've got to take your blood.” We're like, “Uh, okay. Let's just wait until she's in between contractions.” I'm like, “That's a good idea.” So she comes in. She turns on the light. I'm like, “This is throwing off my vibe.” She sits down next to me and she scans my band and then they were like, “Okay, let's wait for the next one.” The next contraction came and it was the, “My body is pushing! I'm pushing. Help!” I had that fetal ejection reflex, but my water was still intact so it was more of the water ejection reflex. Meagan: It was pushing that, yeah. Exactly. Sarah: My body did the thing where it pushed on its own. I've always heard about this when I've listened to the podcasts that this happens. I was always like, “Oh, I want that. That sounds nice. Do it for me,” but I did not like it. Nope. Especially because I was in the tub, maybe that's why, but I just felt so out of control. I was like, “Whoa. I'm not controlling this pushing,” but I was also very excited because I knew that meant it was time. The lab person promptly left the bathroom and they never got my blood. I don't know why they needed it, but they never got it. Meagan: I know. It's so weird, “We need your blood right now.” It's like, “Really? Why?” Sarah: Yeah. Especially when, “Oh, I'm in transition about to have a baby.” I think you're okay. Meagan: Seriously. Sarah: I had that. So that happened and then my doula was like, “Well, do you think you want to get in the bed?” I'm like, “Yes. If a baby is coming, I need to be on the bed.” So again, my favorite position—even my tub position was my hands and knees. I was draping my hand on the back of the bed kind of in that—I wasn't really hands and knees because I started that way and then I ended up hugging a pillow and kind of squatting back. Meagan: Yeah, okay. Sarah: Yeah. I started pushing. Again, my waters hadn't broken yet which was obviously, this is a big thing with my provider. He is hands-off. Any other provider would have said, “Do you want me to break your water?” Meagan: Absolutely. Sarah: That would have been a thing. It was kind of interesting that “Nope. I'm just doing it all on my own what my body wants to do.” I was pushing for about 10 minutes and then my waters exploded. They all knew it was coming, so no one got drenched, but it was so loud. Meagan: Everyone was probably a little sensitive in that area. They were probably like, “I'll walk over here.” Sarah: Yes. They expected it. My doctor was like, “I might get drenched, but I'm ready for it.” But he didn't. Meagan: That's okay. Sarah: It was so loud. I was shocked. It was like a gunshot. It felt like it was just like BAM when I pushed it out. So that was great. Then about 5 minutes after that, he was born. I pushed the waters out and then pushed him out. His head was right there and they were like, “Oh, you can reach down and feel the head.” I'm like, “I can't.” I had to reach down. I'm like, “My arms are too short.” So then I pushed him out. It was about two pushes I think.Yes, as soon as that water was done, yeah. He was two pushes after that. It was about 20 minutes of pushing total. Meagan: Whoa. That's like nothing. Sarah: Yeah, then I got to flip around. They put him on me and they didn't cut the cord until it was done pulsing. They did delayed cord clamping. They did the golden hour. He was just on my chest the whole time. I birthed my placenta which was fine. I did have a small tear which was just something I was scared about with an unmedicated birth. I'm like, “Oh, that will be not pleasant. I hope I don't but again, no idea. I probably will. Most people do.” It was a very small, I guess, second-degree tear but he numbed it. It just felt like a bunch of little bee stings. He numbed it and stitched it. It was fine. Baby was on my chest for that whole hour. What was crazy to me—I also consented to having the Pitocin drip afterward to get the— Meagan: The uterus to contract down, mhmm. Sarah: Yes, yes. I had that. Once that was done, I was able to just stand up and go to the bathroom. Meagan: Amazing, right? Sarah: I could just get up to go to the bathroom. I felt good. I felt fine. This was about 10:50 in the morning, so yeah. I was at the hospital for an hour and a half before he was born. Later that night around 5:00, we had family come over to see the baby that night. I felt as great as could be with still normal postpartum stuff. Meagan: Right. You did just push a baby out. But you weren't knocked out and coming too and all of those other things. Sarah: Yes. So yeah. That's about it for that.Meagan: Aw, yes. Well, congratulations. I'm sure that was a very different experience. I mean, I'm sure both babies were, right? We all cherish our babies' births but to be more present in your baby's birth, I'm sure definitely left an impact. Sarah: Yeah. Even my husband told me that for this time, he actually teared up and felt like it was just such a more of an emotional experience even for him which is completely understandable. It was actually really scary for him with the C-section he told me. They tell you, “Hey, we're going to go put your wife out. We're going to come back and get you and then you're going to come and be part of it.” He's sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting. They just kind of say, “Hey, you can't go in anymore. We knocked her out. You have to wait here. It's going to be a while.” Then he's just like, “Oh, is she going to be okay?” It was a little scary for him too, that first one. This was a lot, obviously, more emotional and just a really cool experience for both of us. Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure it was very healing for both of you like you said. That couldn't have been easy for him walking in and seeing you in that manner. I mean, the fact that he even brought it up. “It was weird when I walked in and you were laying there but then I'm over here doing skin-to-skin with this baby.” Sarah: Yep. Meagan: I'm sure it was so healing for both of you. Huge congrats. Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Oh, and one thing to mention with the doctor is that because I gave him all of my birth plan too, at no point in this hospital situation was I ever offered anything. They knew what my preferences were. They never said anything about any interventions at all. They never said, “Do you want us to break this water?” Everyone was on board. It was great. Meagan: Yeah. You really didn't feel like you had to fight along the way. Sarah: Yeah. It was all supportive which is what I wanted. Meagan: Yeah, and what you deserved. Sarah: Yeah. It was really great to have that. Honestly, the thing I also really liked about pushing in that position where you are facing the back of the bed was that I didn't see all of the people staring at me. It was nice because—and not that it would have mattered—but I'm kind of socially anxious in that situation so it was nice to just be focused on my husband's hand holding me. I've got my comb. I'm breathing. I'm totally in it. I'm not looking around. With the C-section, that labor was like everyone was staring at you. You're pushing and trying and nothing is happening. It was so nice to just be here in my world. I never even saw anyone. Meagan: Yeah. Sometimes you see people's faces and they are not wanting to communicate with their mouths so they communicate with their faces. So when you are just staring at all of these people surrounding you, you find yourself, “What are they saying?” Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: You start questioning it. It pulls you out of that space. It sounds like you were really able to stay in that space because maybe you didn't see any of that. Sarah: Yes, exactly. When I was pushing, it was really hard. I'm not saying it was easy. “Oh, unmedicated in 20 minutes.” No. It was hard work. There were times when some doubts would creep in and I was like, “What if he's in the canal too long? Will he be okay?” It would be easy for those doubts to creep in, but my doctor and my doula were all saying the things that I needed to hear. “You're doing it. Your body knows what to do. Keep pushing this way. Push like you're going to poop.” They were saying all of the things to keep me focused. It would be so easy if you're not ready to give birth to a baby, that feeling would be very scary. You would feel very out of control. I could see how easy it would be for that to be very, very scary. Having the people there that knew what to say to me was very helpful. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. The team is really that powerful though. It really, really is. Sarah: Mhmm. Meagan: So get a team. If you're looking for a doula, we've got doulas on our website that are VBAC-trained and certified. Get a good provider who is supportive and loving and willing to just like Dr. Ryan, just yeah. “Let's do this. Let's do it.” Super supportive from the get-go. “Yeah, we have to have this consult, but I'm not not supporting you by sending you to this consult.” Sarah: Exactly. Yep. He's like, “This person knows that I do a lot of VBACs. They've been through this before.” Meagan: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yeah. Meagan: Well, huge, huge congrats.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Women of Strength, believe in yourselves!Brittani shares her inspiring two VBAC stories with us today-- one where she mostly prepared physically and one where she focused on intense mental preparation.While all three of her birth stories are wildly different, each taught Brittani valuable lessons.The image of Brittani standing in her bathroom being held up by her husband and doula while she pushes out her baby girl is absolutely unforgettable. We are so proud of you, Brittani!Additional LinksBrittani's Clothing Website - Nunuy ApparelHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, hello. We have another VBAC story. We actually have two VBAC stories for you today. We have our friend, Brittani and she is in Oregon. She has had two VBACs. Brittani, tell me. You grew up in Florida. Did you have your babies in Florida or were you in Oregon when you had your babies? Brittani: All three babies here in Oregon. I lived in Florida until I was 21-22. Meagan: Okay, all right. So all three babies in Oregon, so Oregon parents. Brittani: We are. Meagan: Listen up here. We have some VBAC stories for you. I don't know if you will share along the way but feel free to share where you gave birth. We have a lot of people a lot of the time write in and say, “Oh my gosh. I heard this story. I am in the same area. I would love to find a provider. Do you know their provider?” So if you feel that you want to share, feel free in your story to share. Brittani: I am happy to give shoutouts, yes. Meagan: Perfect. Perfect. Well, Brittani is a stay-at-home mom with her three children. They are all under the age of four, right? Brittani: Four and under, right? Our oldest will be five at the end of June. Meagan: Yay. Oh my gosh. You are busy. Brittani: Yes, we are. Meagan: Not only are you busy with three beautiful children, but you have created an amazing business. I just want you to share a little bit about this because I think a lot of people will for sure want to go check you out and make sure to know that if you guys miss it while you're driving or something, the link for all of her stuff will be in the show notes. So yeah, Brittani. Tell us a little bit about your clothing line. Brittani: That's so kind. Thanks, Meagan. I don't know if it'll come up in conversation but I had a really, really tough go at breastfeeding. All three babies, but especially with my first, I was really self-conscious about nursing in public. I got really into sewing at home and just had the inspiration to create my own line designed for breastfeeding. I have three pieces currently. They are all ethically made in my husband's home country of Peru. We use organic pima cotton which is the world's finest cotton. I'm working on two new designs, a jumpsuit, and a sweater. It's called Slow Fashion for a reason. It's taken forever because I need to let go of the perfectionism. Meagan: I know. But at the same time, it's your baby. Brittani: Yep. It's my fourth baby. Yep, yep. Maybe fifth if you count my husband. Meagan: Right. Brittani: Yes. I would even be happy to provide a discount code special to the listeners of this podcast, but yes. It's called Nunuy Nursing Apparel. I have an Instagram that I wish I could be more active on, but I have all of these babies. Meagan: You have three kids under the age of four. Brittani: Yes. Yes. I will get there. I will get there. The baby is going to be a year old next month, so yeah. Thank you for letting me touch on that. Meagan: Yay. Happy birthday. Brittani: Thank you. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. I think It's so important. From one entrepreneur to another, I think it's so important to share. Especially, this is something that really does apply to all of our moms out there who want to breastfeed. Brittani: Yes, totally. Meagan: Well, thank you. Brittani: Thanks, Meagan: Review of the Week Meagan: Yeah, yeah. We'll get into a review and then we'll get into sharing these babies' stories. Obviously, they're all amazing. Okay, so we have a review and it was on Apple Podcasts from sydmobley. It says, “Grateful to have found The VBAC Link. I was recently able to have a successful home VBAC—” so HBAC. H-B-A-C. “—due to a large part of Meagan and Julie and the stories of the ladies featured in The VBAC Link. I cannot say enough about the comfort I found in knowing I was not alone in what I was doing and going through. That so many ladies had come before me and found peace in their empowered birth. What a lifesaver these testimonies were for me.” Oh, I love that. I love that so much. You know, we were talking about this before. I wish—there were birth story podcasts and things like that out when I was going for my VBAC after two Cesarean births. I wish so much that there was something like this that was more specific to VBAC. Something that I can relate to and not feel alone just like Syd because the VBAC world can feel very lonely. Brittani: It is. Meagan: It can feel really lonely and then if you're in an area that is really not supportive—I mean, I felt lonely in Utah where VBAC is supported. I can't imagine how those who are in rural areas or non-supportive areas or even where there are VBAC bans where they feel— Brittani: The bans blew my mind. Someone made a comment to me, “They let you have a VBAC?” I was like, “Let me?” Meagan: Let me, yeah. Yes. You're like, “Hold on. Hold on. No one let me.” But so many people feel so stuck that they have no option. If financial means or whatever are not to a place where you can just pick up your family or yourself and go to another state and have a baby, that can really be terrible. So anyway, thank you for your review, Syd. I really appreciate it and as always, if you love the podcast as well, we'd love your review. Brittani's Stories Meagan: Okay, Brittani. Let's share these baby stories of yours. Brittani: Thank you. I do just want to start by saying thank you for inviting me here. It feels really surreal to tell my—I also never thought I'd have three babies—but to tell my three stories on this podcast that literally gave me all of the strength and guidance to get through my VBACs. Meagan: Oh, it warms my heart. Brittani: We always have a VBAC story because of a Cesarean birth story. I had a primary Cesarean with my oldest, Olivia. The pregnancy was so easy and I did feel like one of those women that were like, you're just glowing and everything's fantastic. But around 28 weeks, my well-established OBGYN told me that she was breech. I didn't really understand what that meant. I'm a very anxious person so I went into full-on panic mode. Meagan: Research mode? Brittani: Yes, yes. You don't really think about Cesareans. I was more terrified to get the epidural because I hate needles. I did try everything. I followed Spinning Babies techniques. I was tortured with needles in my toes and moxi with the acupuncture. I did chiropractic work. Meagan: Bladder 6. Brittani: Yes, yeah. I lay upside down on an ironing board. I did inversions on the stairs and she just was determined to come into the world feet first. My OB wanted me to schedule a Cesarean for 39 weeks. I somehow talked her into going to 39 weeks and 5 days. Her due date fell on a Sunday and they “refused to let me go past 40 weeks.” If I knew what I know now. So we did it on a Friday super early in the morning. I was so terrified. They would not let my husband in for the spinal injection so thankfully, I had established rapport with my doctor. She held my hand through the whole thing. The spinal was done. They did all of the things. I had written a gentle Cesarean birth plan. My doctor followed most of it, but her colleague just started chitchatting her up asking about summer plans. I wish I had the—I don't want to say the guts, but I wish I had spoken up for myself and said, “Yeah, this is my baby's birth. Can you just walk me through what's happening?” because it's so bizarre for half of your body to feel numb. Meagan: Ability, yeah. Brittani: My heart was racing. Oh my goodness. So baby was born. Everything was fine. They did take her from me and wiped her all off before they gave her to me. While the experience wasn't traumatic rushing into the OR, it was planned, but the actual Cesarean experience was pretty traumatic for me. I'm sure some of that still carries on in my nervous system today but because of that experience, we knew we were going to have a second. I just knew. I was like, “I'm never going through that again.” I found your podcast and started preparing. About 15 months after our first was born, I got pregnant with our second. I started out with the same care team, but my doctor had moved on then you get rotated around. I stayed for the first trimester, but every new midwife or OB that I got was just saying all of these bad things about VBAC. I was like, “This is not the place for me.” Meagan: Good for you for recognizing that. It's a really hard place to be. Brittani: Yeah. It's not easy to switch. Meagan: It's really not. It's daunting. It's scary, right? Yeah. Brittani: Totally. I do live in an amazing place with very supportive providers and lots of options. We have several free-standing birth centers. There are birth centers with midwives, so I chose to do an out-of-hospital birth center. The birth team there is called “Omnum Midwifery” and they are just right there in southeast Portland. So they had four midwives at the time. Also, appointments were an hour long. They cared about you and asked you questions. The OB appointments were just so fast. You forget to ask things. It's kind of like a whirlwind. This was a much slower pace. You feel really involved. Meagan: Really, really cared for. Brittani: So different. I wish I knew more about this, but my husband says, “Hindsight's 20/20,” so you just work with what you've got. This pregnancy was really bad with nausea in the beginning, so I kind of had this feeling, “I hope it's a boy,” because we already had a girl. We had two so we thought— Meagan: One girl, one boy. Brittani: Perfect, yeah. He stayed head-down. They found him at his anatomy scan head-down. He stayed there the whole time which was awesome because I was so worried about that, another breech baby. I naturally went into labor at 40 weeks and 2 days. It was pretty early in the morning. I went to the bathroom. I had been having—I don't love the work Braxton Hicks—practice contractions and when I wiped, I had some blood-tinged mucus. I just knew it was different. I called my mom. She came over to be with our oldest. I touched base with the midwives. They actually came and did a home visit to check on me and baby first and then said, “Okay. Let's meet at the birth center in a few hours.”I was already experiencing contractions where I had to hold onto something and I couldn't talk and had to breathe through it. I think that kind of psyched me out. I was like, “If it's this hard right now, what's going to happen in active labor?” I really did trip myself out that way. But we got to the birth center which was so lovely. They had the bath ready for me. I was in and out of the bath, but after struggling pretty hard, I think I was in labor at this point for 15+ hours, I asked for a cervical check. They hadn't even offered or touched. I was at 7 which was pretty exciting. Meagan: Wow, yeah. Brittani: Yeah. It was the first time I had been in labor. I didn't labor with our first. However, things started to get really, really difficult and I had double-peaking contractions for hours on end. Meagan: You weren't getting a break. Brittani: Not even close. And oh, Meagan. I lost my doula because of COVID. They stopped letting people come into the hospitals as a “guest” or “visitor”. I'm putting that in quotation marks because I feel that every single birthing woman on this planet deserves support. It's not a visitor. It's part of your birth team. Meagan: It's essential. Brittani: I agree. Meagan: I know. I know. I was the doula on the other end during COVID dropping at the door just bawling my eyes out— Brittani: Because you feel so invested, yeah. Meagan: Or feeling very angry because someone was like, “Hey, they just told me that you can no longer be with me.” But our hospital did start finding that people were dropping the hospital, so they started making doulas essential. That's why they were like, “They are essential to this plan.” Brittani: So essential, mhmm. Meagan: That is so hard to have a plan and then lose your doula. Brittani: Yes. I guess I should backtrack slightly. I hired a birth photographer because that was super important to me and then I hired a doula. The company my doula was working for offered virtual services, but I'm like, “I'm going to end up throwing the computer at the wall.” Meagan: It's really hard. It's really hard. Brittani: I wanted hands-on. I wanted to be touched. I wanted to be talked through it. So I did lose our doula, but anyway, I really believe that if she had been there, it would definitely have given me a little more strength because nobody was there to just be like, “You can do this.” Meagan: Yeah, your cheerleader. Your husband probably needed her too. Brittani: Yeah, doulas are totally for the partner as well, my goodness, because sometimes they feel totally lost and just don't know what to do. When I was going through contractions, I just started rhythmically tapping on things. I wasn't counting out loud, but I would count in my head because it just helped me feel really present and grounded like I was in control of something. But that counting and tapping in my head turned into pounding on the wall and every time I knew that second surge was coming, my butt would just clench. Meagan: Just tense up, yeah. Brittani: I just couldn't relax. I had some glute pain throughout the pregnancy and at this point, it felt like there were just electric shocks going down my legs. I don't want to scare anybody, but it was so taxing that I literally begged to transfer to the hospital. It took a lot longer to get a call back from the hospital than I expected. When I first asked to transfer, by the time we got there, it had been 4 hours with these double contractions. It was awful, Meagan. So the midwives also couldn't transfer with me because of COVID, so my husband and I were on our own— Meagan: With a new team. Brittani: Yeah, just the two of us there. We get to the hospital. The anesthesiologist was busy so even if you transfer, it still takes a long time to get the epidural. Meagan: So prepare for that mentally, for sure. Brittani: Yes, absolutely. I also forgot to mention they gave me some of the laughing gas at the birth center. Meagan: Oh, nitrous oxide? Brittani: It didn't help. It didn't help. I think I was just too deep into it to get my rhythm back, unfortunately. I prepared so much physically for the VBAC that I really didn't take the time to prepare as much mentally as I could have. So we get to the hospital. I go. I get in. They hook me up to the IV. The nurse offered me Fentanyl. She said it would take the edge off. Meagan: Even at 7 centimeters, I'm shocked. Brittani: It was brutal. I wish I hadn't done it. It made me so dizzy and really disoriented. Meagan: Kind of foggy. Brittani: Yes. I hadn't eaten since the morning and here we were at 7:00 at night. So we're moving on. Everybody's like, “Oh, you transferred from the birth center.” At some point, I wanted to slap somebody. I'm like, “Can we just let me have my baby instead of telling me where I came from? I know that I transferred to the hospital.” Meagan: I just came here to have a baby. That is where I came from. I came here. Brittani: Let's just do this. But really, Meagan, I felt like I should have just gone in with this flashing neon sign, "Danger VBAC, Danger VBAC.” Meagan: Really? Brittani: So I got the epidural placed. I had the machinery hooked up. If you're not breathing well or if you move a little too much, those machines get so wonky. They wanted to break my bag of water to put the little internal monitor on. I really educated myself when I knew our doula wasn't coming. I made a hospital birth plan. I made a backup Cesarean birth plan. We really just advocated for ourselves. We declined the monitor. They ended up bringing in closer to full dilation a piece of paper saying I had a 79% success rate for my VBAC. Meagan: What? In the middle of labor, you're at 7 centimeters. Brittani: I think at this point I might have been at 9 because she checked me and my bag of water hadn't broken yet. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Brittani: So I happily signed saying that I do not want a repeat Cesarean. They did give the risks of VBAC and a repeat C-section which most people don't talk about the risks for both. Both carry risks. Yep. So I agreed to let them break my bag at 9 centimeters. There was some meconium in the water. My poor baby had just been put through the wringer with these double-peaking contractions. She tells me, “Let's do a practice push,” and when I did that, I felt my stomach acid come up into my throat. I was so exhausted, Meagan. I was just like, “I'm going to end up in the OR.” I just was ready to give up. Meagan: You just felt defeat. Brittani: Yeah. My husband was so tired but still there the whole time. I did again advocate for myself and was like, “Look. You guys have been in and out of this room. I've had zero rest. I've been in labor for over 24 hours.” She said, “Well, we'll give you an hour.” But someone was probably in every 15 minutes because they were getting all of the birth stuff ready and there was meconium in the water so they were prepping the NICU team. Somebody was supposed to be there for the actual birth to make sure he didn't need to be suctioned. So they let me rest but I didn't really rest. Then the midwife comes back in and says, “Since this is your first vaginal birth, we're going to prepare to push for 2-3 hours.” I was like, “Nope. That's not happening.” I had this whole vision of me birthing the baby. It was not in a supine position with both of my legs in the air and a nurse on one side and my husband on the other. She's telling me, “Hold your breath. Push as hard as you can.” They call it purple pushing because— Meagan: Your face goes purple. You lose your oxygen. Brittani: Sometimes blood vessels will break. Yes.  So thankfully—my son's name is Enrique—he handled the pushing really well. I got him out in 45 minutes. Meagan: Which is awesome. Brittani: Yeah. The weird thing was—my poor little guy. He had a really rough start. My midwife stepped away. I must have watched dozens of birth videos. My baby is crowning. She asked if I wanted to touch his head which gave me so much more strength. I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm right there. I know I can do this.” They turn the epidural off when you start pushing, so I got to feel all of that pressure. I felt like I needed to take a really big poop. It was kind of scary. So as he is crowning, I could just feel everything stretching. I don't know why, but she stepped away. We had been doing three pretty valiant pushes. We. I was doing pretty valiant pushes with each contraction. I hated that feeling of him just sitting right there and I needed him out. Usually, just the head is born, so I gave a fourth push even though the midwife had walked away and my little boy just came shooting out. Nobody was there to catch him. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Brittani: His cord was so long and I'm so grateful because they take the bottom of the bed off and what if he had fallen on the floor? My little dude-- Meagan: So did he stay on the bed? Brittani: He did. He did not fall, but my poor little guy. He screamed and screamed for a whole hour. He didn't want to breastfeed. The staff wasn't super duper attentive, but the recovery from that birth was just so much different. I had some pelvic floor damage that I'm still dealing with a little bit today but it's because I've had back to back to back babies and I really do think that athletic pushing just might not have been the sole cause, but it did some damage to my pelvic floor. Meagan: Yeah. Brittani: So after his birth, my husband got a vasectomy. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say are you going to mention what happened after? Yeah, okay. Okay. Brittani: It was so crazy. In November 2020, he got a vasectomy. We were just two babies, that's it. A boy and a girl. A couple of months go by and he's taking his samples back to the lab. They were like, “You still have lots of activity and it's really plentiful.” I'm just like, “How does this happen?” Meagan: How does this happen? Brittani: Oregon is a great state though. They cover sterilization at 100% when you have insurance so at least we didn't have to pay a ton of money to have it done, but as odd as it sounds, I just kind of felt like I questioned everything in my life. I have two siblings. My husband, Gonzalo, has two siblings and so just literally joking, Meagan, one night, I said, “I think I want another baby.” I thought he was going to say, “We got a vasectomy for a reason. Why would we go for a third?” Meagan: No! Yeah. Brittani: He was like, “Well, we probably would need a bigger car. If it's a boy, he'd have to share a room with Enrique. So he started talking about all of these things and I was like, “What?” Meagan: The logistics of it almost like he had thought about it before. Brittani: So it took us a couple of months and we agreed to have one more baby. I never thought I would have three children ever, but our little girl just really wanted to be here so we did get pregnant with our third. This was by far my hardest, most unpleasant pregnancy. I gained a ton of weight but I was nauseous almost to the end of the second trimester. Awful. So I'm actually really glad. I'm going to miss having life inside of my belly because it's just amazing, but that pregnancy was rough enough that I'm like, “Okay. I think that's good. I'm satisfied.” Meagan: You're like, “Let's make sure that vasectomy is 100% this time.” Brittani: That's right. So this time around, as I stated in my earlier VBAC birth story, I prepared so much physically, so this time unfortunately, the weight gain got the best of me, but I was really dedicated to mental preparation. Meagan: Yeah. Brittani: I chose a home birth midwife team. Their names are Alicia and Nicole and they are with Flourish Midwifery also in Portland. They are amazing home birth midwives. I started with them really early on and my whole deal with this home birth was that I changed my language. I stopped using contractions. I said “surges”. I was just using different terms to describe birth and I went in just feeling like, “This doesn't have to be scary. This could be an amazing experience.” Surges just feel like really intense period cramps and you can literally feel the energy coming down. I don't know if you're a Bruno Mars fan but his 24-karat Magic was like, “Don't fight the feeling. Invite the feeling.” So I just kept saying, “I can do this.” I have a friend. She's a hypnosis coach turned friend and she does Hypnobirthing. My husband also wasn't super involved in the prep for Enrique's VBAC, but he was very involved with this one. So I did Hypnobirthing with my friend, Christy. Her business is called Enter Into Calm. She's also local-ish. She's a couple of hours away from me here in Oregon. So I just meditated to their rainbow—it's Hypnobirthing—relaxation every day. I listened to birth affirmations literally in the car back and forth anywhere I was going. Ina May's Spiritual Midwifery book—I rented it from the library three times and I read all of those birth stories. I dedicated myself so much to all of these positive, amazing birth stories and just gathered that collective strength. I just truly felt it in my bones. I was like, “I've got this.” Then 36 weeks, I had an anterior placenta. I didn't feel—Sophia's her name. I didn't feel Sophia move as much during this last pregnancy, so I was always a little like, “What's going on?” Meagan: Yeah. Brittani: At 36 weeks, we had the placement of my placenta checked and baby was breech. 36 weeks. I have chills all over my body right now just saying it out loud. My husband didn't go with me because it was just going to be a quick check of my placenta. I felt so defeated. I broke down crying and called my midwives. I took a day to just feel really crappy and sorry for myself. Then I decided to do something about it. I was like, “You know what? I prepared so hard for this. I'm not just going to give up these last four weeks or whatever.” Meagan: Right. Right. Brittani: Again, I'm so lucky to be where I am. I declined an ECV, external cephalic version-- I think I'm pronouncing that right—where they manipulate your belly to move the baby with our first because the OB just straight up told me that I'm going to want an epidural placed. “We're going to numb you, give you muscle relaxers and by the way, I have less than a 10% success rate.” So I was like, “I'm not going to do that.” But this time around, my midwives knew another home birth midwife who has her own acupuncture and chiropractic practice as well as delivering babies. Meagan: Breech babies? Brittani: Well, I did find breech home birth midwives but she does ECVs and she's incredibly successful. Meagan: Awesome. Brittani: So I went to her office at 38 weeks. I had done Spinning Babies. The information is all free on their website, but they have a specific program where you can pay a little bit of money to have it all on one sheet. My husband helped me do some belly sifting. I did all of these things for six days which is supposed to give more space in the womb. It's not always going to turn the baby because she didn't turn, but also just creates that extra space to help the ECV have a higher success rate. Meagan: Right. Brittani: So we get there. One of my midwives came with me which was so lovely. We brought some oil. The midwife put those darn needles in my pinky toes and it does hurt. She left us for 10 or 15 minutes. Alicia just massaged my belly and we talked to the baby. It was actually really beautiful. I took some really deep breaths. Meagan: Sounds like it. Brittani: While it was incredibly intense, I ended up with some bruising around my ribcage because she got Sophia transverse then she slipped back. So we had to do a second go and I was really worried it wasn't going to work, but she just had some kind of magic. I remember the rhythmic rocking when I knew she was just getting to the head-down position. My heart is even racing just retelling the story. So when she gets her head down, just busted into tears of relief and disbelief. Then I sat on the stool and she checked the baby's heart rate. Her heart rate never dipped and I just accredit that to me being so calm. I talked to her. I practiced for 5 months at this point doing this meditation and breath work so it was such a crazy, amazing experience. I ended up going into labor on her due date. During my meditation—you can't plan, but in my mind, I was like, “I'd love to go into labor when the older two are asleep and they wake up to a new baby sister.” I went into labor just as the kids were going to sleep. It picked up really quickly. I had the tub, but we didn't have time to fill it up. I was in my tub. I ended up getting out and we called the midwife around 3:00 AM. The midwife and doula got there between 4:00 and 4:30. I was on the bed at this point. I remember feeling this—I don't know how to describe it right at this point, but it was just such an intense feeling in my back. I now know it was her coming through the birth canal, but I screamed and I was like, “Somebody squeeze my hips!” I can't remember how many hours, but instead of doing the tapping like I did with my other when I was unmedicated at the time, it was really crazy. I was so loud. I can't believe the kiddos didn't wake up. It was like, “I can do this,” with this really low voice trying to bring the baby down. Meagan: And opening your throat. Brittani: I was such a low almost like a growl. Meagan: Yeah. Brittani: It was either, “I can do this” or “I've got this”. I felt it in my body, Meagan. I was like, “This is happening.” Meagan: Oh, that's amazing. Brittani: They somehow got me off my bed because they wanted me to move. I think they could tell I was getting ready to push and I was like, “I can't do it.” So the three of them somehow helped me to the short walk into my bathroom. This big birth tub is in there with four adults and they get me to sit down on the toilet. I'll never forget this. My doula who also was a VBAC mama and my acupuncturist for both my second and third pregnancy, she came to be our doula. I was completely naked also which I never thought would happen but that's just what happened. She wiped my sweaty hair off my face and told me how beautiful I looked. I can't even describe how that just changed everything because I was feeling really scared and I said at one point, “I don't think I can do this.” Those women just—I could not have done it without their presence. Anyways, I sat on the toilet and I heard this really loud pop. My water released then the rest of it was kind of just a blur. She'd only checked Sophia's heartbeat twice. I didn't have one vaginal exam and here I am and my baby's getting ready to be born. They asked me to stand up and I was like, “Not happening.” So I'm holding on with one arm on my husband, my doula on the other and I actually sunk my teeth into my doula's arm as I was standing up. It was so intense. Meagan: I was bit one time as a doula! Brittani: Oh my gosh. Meagan: After, she was like, “Did I bite you or did I imagine that?” I'm like, “Yeah, you did. That's okay though.” She bit into my hand. She grabbed my hand. Brittani: It's just such a primal thing. You're not really in control. Things happen. Meagan: Yeah, that's what she said. She said, “I thought I maybe did it but then maybe I imagined it.” Brittani: Crazy. I actually felt the same way. I was thinking about it, then I did weeks later apologize to her, but it was just like, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Sophia was born so quickly. When I stood up, my legs were shaking. I had my husband and my doula. Alicia was like, “Do you want to reach down and touch your baby?” I just couldn't gather the strength to let someone's arm go, so I said, “No.” Then she offered to let my husband catch her and I was like, “You're not going anywhere.” Meagan: He's holding me up! Brittani: I really thought that I pushed for a long time, but she told me it was less than 5 minutes. Meagan: Whoa. Brittani: She just came right out. She had a nuchal cord. She had a really short cord too and she was just placed directly on my belly. They helped me walk from there to the bed and I just couldn't believe I did it. It was so surreal. Then I went through this—I had really bad shakes after. They said, “It's just the hormones.”Meagan: Adrenaline. Brittani: But it was wild. I felt so cold. They popped towels in the dryer for me and got me all warm. Wow. Just what a crazy experience. And Meagan, the second vasectomy worked. Meagan: See? This baby girl just wanted to be in your family. Brittani: Not even kidding. She just made our little family complete. Meagan: So complete. Brittani: Yeah. She really did want to be with us, our sweet Sophia. Meagan: Oh my goodness. I love that too that you were all in this bathroom, everybody hands-on right there and you could feel their strength obviously. Brittani: Amazing. Meagan: Yes, and then just boom. Baby's out. Brittani: I still can't believe it. Intact perineum actually. Both births, intact perineum. Meagan: I think that has something to do with position and control as well. Brittani: Totally. Gravity was so in my favor. Meagan: Mhmm and then not being stuck on your back in a crazy position. Brittani: Yes, which goes against all of the laws of gravity. Yeah. Being on your back is hard but for an epidural, it's kind of the only choice you really have, unfortunately. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. They can move you side to side but a lot of the time, the providers don't feel comfortable with that. They really don't. Brittani: Of course. They want you in a laid-back position. I totally understand which is bad for what do they call it? Biological birth. I can't think of the word right now. Meagan: No, I was going to say physiological birth. Brittani: Yes, thank you. I think you're right. I think you're right. Yep. Yep. Meagan: Physiological. Yes, anyway. Yes. That is also to say if you guys are wanting an epidural and you're like, you know, you can still fight for other positions. Speak up and like she was saying in the OR, we wish that we could. It's just hard. We want. We're here in our heads saying things, but we can't vocalize it so if you are one of those people that feel like you would get there, I was too. My doctor was also in the OR talking about how sad they were that it was snowing outside and how they just got back from Hawaii. Brittani: Oh my goodness. Meagan: But have someone else, your birthing partner, your husband or your doula, or someone else there to say, “Hey, I know that this would mean a lot to her,” and communicate that, right? Brittani: I love that. Yes. You absolutely can and should. Meagan: And should. If you feel like you can't articulate it or there's not someone with you, just move as much as you can, right?Brittani: Right. I should have mentioned that I did ask for a peanut ball and we rotated while I had the epidural back and forth. They wanted me to push. I asked for some rest. I didn't get great rest, but you can absolutely advocate for yourself and ask for what you want. And yes, doulas or birth partners are the ones that get to be the bad guy. Let them do it. You do your thing and let somebody else do the uncomfortable things. Let's do it this way. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. We talk about it. I'm happy to be the bad guy. I'm happy to be the bad guy. It's not bad for someone to say something, but unfortunately, sometimes we are looking like the annoying ones but I'll be annoying for you. Well, congratulations. Brittani: Thanks, Meagan. Meagan: Congratulations on the completion of your family. I mean, I would usually say that would suck to not have it work but it sounds like it did not suck to not have the vasectomy go through. It's perfect and is exactly what you needed. Brittani: I quite possibly might have the world's best husband so I wouldn't have done it had I not married him. Meagan: Yes. Well, congratulations. You talked about how with the second VBAC, the third pregnancy, you really focused more on the mental aspect. This is where it's really hard because we want to find this balance between physically and educationally preparing for our VBACs but then also emotionally preparing. So is there anything that you—I mean it sounds like you did a lot. But is there anything that you are like, “This is something that I did that I truly felt I carried through my entire birth?” Brittani: Definitely believing in myself. When you have that self-efficacy, nothing can really stop you. It is important to prepare physically as well because our bodies go through a very physical process and it is physically taxing to be pregnant and then give birth regardless of how your baby enters the world. So just finding that balance of also not overwhelming myself because I get overwhelmed really easily. I just picked one main thing to focus on and where I found the most strength was reading all of the birth stories and listening to your podcast. I even went in the Facebook community, your Facebook group, and told my son's birth story and just sharing things because you really aren't alone. There is somebody else going through it. You can find your little village of people and my biggest thing is I always didn't entertain any negativity. If I talked about, “I'm going to have my baby at home,” or getting the looks or, “Ooh, is that safe?” I'm such a “Let me tell you why I'm right” kind of person. I chose silence at that point. I was like, “I believe in myself. I know I can do this,” and I just kind of put a wall up if you will to any of that negativity. And just know the facts. There is plenty of great information on your website. I knew all of the statistics and I was so educated and when I ended up in the hospital, it worked to my benefit because I was able to advocate for myself. Meagan: Yeah, especially with your team changing. Crazy. I love that. Believe in yourself. Brittani: Women of Strength, yes. Meagan: Women of Strength, you are strong and you can do it. You can get through anything. It's okay if plans change. Brittani: Totally. Mine did several times. Meagan: But also, know that if plans change, it doesn't mean that everything is just out the window. It doesn't have to be that way. We know that sometimes, things happen and it feels like everything just went out the window. It feels defeating and it feels frustrating but know that there are still options. There are still options. Brittani: Always. Meagan: And you are strong.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this Birth Story Friday episode, Audrey shares her two scheduled Cesarean birth stories.  Towards the end of her first pregnancy, Audrey found out that her baby was breech, and after an unsuccessful. ECV, she opted have a scheduled Cesarean birth. At four months postpartum, she found out that she was pregnant with her second child, so she opted for another schedule Cesarean birth (which was a very different experience from her first!). Roxane and Gina discuss the risks of having a short interval pregnancy, meaning your pregnancies are really close together, and why Audrey may have opted to have another scheduled Cesarean birth. We also talk about how our prenatal fitness can not only support our birth, but also our recovery, even if you're having a scheduled Cesarean birth! In this episode -Audrey prepares for her first birth after a successful IVF journey (2:02) -Trying acupuncture to flip the breech baby (5:36) -Audrey's ECV experience (6:47) -Audrey's first C-Section experience (11:37) -Audrey finally gets answers as to why her first C-section was so foggy (23:54) -The second C-section experience (24:39) -The risks of short interval pregnancies (30:25) -How prenatal fitness can support a scheduled Cesarean birth (33:08) Want to share your birth story on our podcast? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Submit your birth story on our website! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Prepare for your birth with us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Childbirth Education Courses⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Prenatal Fitness Programs⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pelvic Floor Prep for Birth⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠website here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! The MamasteFit Podcast Birth Story Friday episodes are sponsored by Bao Bei, a perinatal clothing company that supports your pregnancy, birth, and beyond with their expertly curated support-wear garments.  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Use code MAMASTEFIT for 15% off your order.

PODCAST EPISODE - EMMA'S BIRTH STORIES - PART 1 - “WE HAVE A PROBLEM” - #90 Join your hosts Lea and Sophia as they interview Emma on her first birth journey. They discuss IUD pregnancy, celiacs, STI false-positive results, ECV for breech, Covid, hemophilia, induction, epidural, episiotomy, forceps, vacuum, manual removal of placenta, and flat nipples. Emma is an artist, textile designer and a mom in the East Bay area. Her family includes her husband Matt, three year old Fiona, new baby Stella and a very patient Shepard mix named Dash. Emma's Contact info: IG: @emma_shutko and @emmashutkodesign Listen here: IG: linktree in bio FB: https://anchor.fm/bornwild/episodes/90--Emmas-Birth-Stories---Part-1---We-Have-A-Problem-e25uga0 @sophiabirth @bayareahomebirth @ninabasker @familyfocusdoulacare @bornwildmidwifery Stay Wild

Birth Story 5: Annie's Birth Story: Breech Positioning, Successful ECV, and Complications Leading to A Positive C-Section Join us as Annie shares her birth story! In today's birth story, Annie will be sharing her story of how she planned for an unmedicated, vaginal birth at a midwife-run birth center, but ended up being transferred to a hospital and ultimately needing a C-section. In her third trimester, Annie found out her baby was breech, had a successful ECV, developed some complications towards the end of her pregnancy that required her to change her birthing location and plan, but thanks to a supportive and communicative team, she had a positive Cesarean birth experience! Want to share your birth story on our podcast? ⁠⁠⁠Submit your birth story on our website! ⁠⁠ Prepare for your birth with us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Childbirth Education Courses⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Prenatal Fitness Programs⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pelvic Floor Prep for Birth⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠website here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! The MamasteFit Podcast Birth Story Friday episodes are sponsored by Bao Bei, a perinatal clothing company that supports your pregnancy, birth, and beyond with their expertly curated support-wear garments.  ⁠⁠⁠⁠Use code MAMASTEFIT for 15% off your order.

Birth Story 4: Mackenzie's Birth Story: Breech, ECV, and Prenatal Transfer of Care from a Freestanding Birth Center to Hospital Birth Join us as Mackenzie shares her birth story! Mackenzie was planning a birth at a freestanding birth center, but found out that her baby was breech! The birth center could not support a breech vaginal birth, so Mackenzie transferred care to a local hospital in hopes that an ECV would flip baby head down. And it worked! Mackenzie transferred back to her birth center, but after her water broke without labor progressing, she found herself back at the hospital to have her unmedicated vaginal birth! Want to share your birth story on our podcast? ⁠⁠Submit your birth story on our website! ⁠ Prepare for your birth with us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Childbirth Education Courses⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Prenatal Fitness Programs⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Pelvic Floor Prep for Birth⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠website here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! The MamasteFit Podcast Birth Story Friday episodes are sponsored by Bao Bei, a perinatal clothing company that supports your pregnancy, birth, and beyond with their expertly curated support-wear garments.  ⁠⁠⁠Use code MAMASTEFIT for 15% off your order.

When the empowering VBAC experience she envisioned took a hostile and combative turn, Carlise knew she needed to change birth locations immediately. Though signing an AMA was not something she thought she would ever have to do, Carlise found the strength to fight for the birth she deserved. Her thorough research and supportive husband and doula gave her the confidence to not tolerate a doctor's inappropriate behavior.Meagan shares the pros and cons regarding AMA forms to help you feel educated if you find yourself in a situation similar to Carlise. While it was extremely difficult, leaving that first hospital during labor was ultimately what allowed Carlise to have her beautiful, unmedicated VBAC!Additional LinksCarlise's InstagramAMA ArticleHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, hello. You are listening to The VBAC Link and we have another story for you today. We have our friend Carlise and she is from all over the place but she is in Texas currently. This is where you had your VBAC. In Texas?Carlise: Yeah, so both of my pregnancies have been here in El Paso, Texas. Meagan: Perfect. She had a VBAC in Texas and she had a wild journey kind of similar to a month or two ago, I want to say maybe it was Morgan where she had to sign an AMA and leave while in active labor. We are going to talk a little bit about AMAs today as well in addition to her VBAC because it's something that we don't talk about a ton. If you don't know what AMA is, it's against medical advice. That is a form that we would have to sign to pretty much say that we are leaving against medical advice but sometimes we are put in situations– and I'll share a story that I've been to as a doula– where we feel that we have to sign these AMAs. Review of the WeekIn this situation, you signed the AMA and went on to another hospital and had a VBAC and a different experience. So we'll talk a little bit about AMAs but first, we have a Review of the Week as always. Just a reminder, if you haven't left a review, we would love your review. You can leave it on Apple Podcasts or on Google. You can just search for The VBAC Link on Google. You can email us at info@thevbaclink.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We love your reviews. This is from runnervt. It says, “This podcast helped me get my VBAC.” It says, “I started listening to The VBAC Link to process my Cesarean due to breech presentation. It helped so much to hear women put into words all that I had thought and felt. Then I listened to it in preparation for my VBAC. Today, 8/7/22 and there were times I thought that my VBAC was slipping away but I was able to be prepared and get a little lucky and pushed out my 9-pound baby in 48 minutes with no tearing!” It says, “Thank you so much. Talk about the feeling of being superhuman. Thank you so much, Julie and Meagan.”I love that, superhuman. You are all superhumans. Birth is just so wild. Wouldn't you agree, Carlise? It is such a crazy experience but it is so amazing. It is so beautiful. It is crazy to think about how different births can be. Carlise: 100%. It's crazy. Meagan: Between one baby to another or say you have five babies and you're like, “Yeah, this has been the same.” I have a friend who has had her 5th baby. She was like, “Okay. I have had easy peasy births” and all of these things, and her 5th baby was a Cesarean. She was like, “That came out of left field.” It was a whole crazy thing. She was really sick and baby was really tangled in her cord. But yeah. It's wild. It's wild to think just how the unexpected can happen so I think it's so important to listen to stories just like the one that we are going to be sharing today and all of the stories on the podcast so you can get a better grasp and understanding of childbirth, how it looks, the interventions, and all of the things that can happen in childbirth. Sometimes it's really hard to listen to those Cesarean stories for sure because you're not wanting another Cesarean or if you're a first-time mom listening to the podcast which we do have first-time parents listening to the podcast, it's hard to want to listen to those because it's not what you're preparing for or it's not what you think would ever happen but like 90% of us on this podcast, we didn't think a Cesarean would happen either so it's so, so, so important for us to learn all of the ways birth can come at us. We are going to get to your story but I would love to know if you have anything that you would like to add in the beginning of advice to the parents listening. Carlise: I think just doing as much research as you can possibly do and know that you may have some pushback in getting your VBAC or the birth that you want in general. But be confident in that research and also share that with your spouse or your support. Let them know, “Hey, this can happen or these are choices that we might have to make,” so that everybody's educated and everybody goes in the room knowing what can happen because anything can prep for all of it but you've got it and it'll be fine. Meagan: Yeah. Yep. I love it.Carlise's StoriesMeagan: Okay. Well, we are going to get into this story but first, I just want to quickly introduce you a little bit more. We talked about how you are in Texas but you are from a small town in Missouri where you met your husband right after high school which is so awesome. You have been married for six years. You've lived in Alabama, Germany, and now Texas. You are a stay-at-home-mama providing stability for your girls. You have the two girls. What are their ages?Carlise: My oldest daughter is two and we just had Amelia last month so they are almost exactly two years apart. Meagan: Two years apart. That is so awesome. Your husband is an Active Duty Pilot?Carlise: Yes. He flies Apaches.Meagan: Yes. That's so awesome. That's really, really cool. I am so grateful to you for being with us today and I would love to turn the time over to you to share your VBAC story. Carlise: All right. My first pregnancy was super uncomplicated. There weren't any issues throughout the entire time. We actually got pregnant in Germany and then when we were PCSing or moving back to the States, I was 17 weeks. We didn't have any issues. Then we got to about 34 weeks and baby was breech. They were like, “No, no. It's good. It's good. Baby can flip, whatever.” I'm over here planning my vaginal birth, no problem. I have all this research done and then 35 weeks, still breech. 36 weeks, yep. Still breech. They gave me all of the things. ECV, moxibustion, Spinning Babies, and chiropractic care, but it was right in the middle of COVID so I couldn't do chiropractic care. I couldn't do acupuncture. I tried all of the things but she just wanted to be like a little taco. She was my little frank breech baby. We scheduled a C-section for 40 weeks. She wanted to come at 38+4 so we had gone in because I had a very, very slow leak. It was slow enough to where I was like, “Okay. Is this my water? Is it not my water?” Yeah. Sure enough. So when we got in, we had to wait a few hours because I had eaten that morning. We had a pretty uncomplicated C-section. The spinal took multiple different tries so that was horrible. The drain was at my collarbone so I didn't get skin-to-skin after. All of the medication just made me super foggy and I straight up don't remember the first two hours of my daughter's life. I don't remember latching her for the first time. It's still really rough because that's not the experience I wanted at all. Meagan: Right. Carlise: So when I got pregnant again 14 months later, honestly I walked into it a little naive because when I had done my research for my first pregnancy, I knew I wanted that vaginal birth. I had seen information on VBAC a lot actually when I was doing some of my research. I just kept seeing that it was a good thing. It was recommended by ACOG or whatever so I just thought that that was normal. Meagan: You didn't even question it. You're like, “Okay, great.”Carlise: I didn't even think about it. When I was trying to make my appointment on post because we have Tricare Prime and you have to be seen on post. They were like, “Yeah, no. We can't get you in until you're 17 weeks pregnant.” I was like, “No. That's not going to work.” They pushed me into the network off post and that's actually kind of what I wanted but little did I know, the military hospital is the most VBAC friendly. I didn't know that at the time. I had chosen an OB that everybody was like, “He's great. He's so good.” I was like, “Awesome.” At my first appointment with him, he sounded so supportive. He was like, “Yeah. You sound like a really good candidate.” He looked at my OP report. I was feeling really good about it. Then every consecutive appointment with him, I think I had three legit appointments, he just kept saying, “C-section this. C-section that. Whenever you want to schedule a C-section–” and I'm like, “Yeah. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is going to be a bait and switch here.” Meagan: Which is a terrible feeling. It's not a fun feeling when you're like, “Why is everything switching?” Carlise: Especially when he sounded so supportive, it was so disappointing, and then having to switch at 20 weeks, you're like, “Okay, great.” Then, the anatomy scan that he did was literally less than five minutes. We both know that is not an anatomy scan. He pointed out major features. He didn't look at the spine. He didn't look at the heart. He didn't look at any of these things. I was just feeling so uncomfortable with my care so I was like, “Yeah, no. I think I'm going to be done.” I was interviewing doulas and my doula had asked where this doctor delivered. I told her. The two hospitals that he delivers at have the highest rate of C-sections in the area as well as really, really bad reputations for episiotomies. Hearing her stories from being a doula at those hospitals was not great. I was like, “Okay, yeah. No, I'm going to switch now.” I talked to her about where she recommended and she's like, “Honestly, on post. If you can get back on post, that's going to be the most recommended but if you can't,” which I wasn't able to, the university hospital was going to be the second best place to get the VBAC. I switched my care. My pregnancy was super uncomplicated again. At the university, I never saw the same doctor which I really didn't want but I was just like, “Whatever. I'm going to do this whether or not I have a supportive provider, so it's good. You're just here to give me prenatal care.” They were definitely more tolerant than fully supportive. They kept saying at every single appointment, “You're going to get an epidural, right? You're going to get an epidural.” I was like, “No.” They're like, “Okay, well it's just in case.” I hear that a lot.  But no, I'm planning on going unmedicated. They just kind of left it. Then we got to about 38 weeks and my doula had called me. She's like, “Hey, I just had a horrible experience at UMC. The nurses were really pushing back at everything that this first-time mom had wanted.” They didn't treat her well and it just sounded super, super iffy. She's like, “We can obviously still go. I just want you to be prepared that it might be something that we could encounter.” The whole time, I was like, “I just want to go to the military hospital.” I had my daughter there. I was really comfortable with the staff. I really liked their care. So I was like, “You know what? We're just going to go to the military hospital in labor.” She was like, “Okay, cool. Sounds good.” So that's what we ended up trying. One day before 40 weeks, I went into labor super early in the morning. It was 1:30 in the morning. They were very odd contractions. It was like a rollercoaster for 24 hours. They started at ten minutes apart and then six but they would bounce around. They weren't consistent at all. That just happened forever. I was just like, “I just want to be done.”Meagan: You're like, “I'm tired.” Carlise: I was so tired. I was trying all of the things like the Miles circuit and curb walking, playing with my daughter, and trying to rest. Nothing was working. My doula was like, “Do you think it's a mental block? Do you think there's something?” I was like, “No, I feel good. The TENS unit is amazing.” I baked a cake while I was in labor. I was just like, “I don't understand.” She's like, “You've got this. It's fine. It's going to progress. Just try to rest as much as you can.” Then it was at 40 weeks at 1:30 in the morning that we started progressing a lot quicker. I was at 6 centimeters and I was like, “Yeah, I'm going to call the doula.” My husband ended up calling and while he was on the phone with her, they were just getting really, really intense. He was like, “Yeah. I think we're ready for you to come.” She started making her way. It was about a 45-minute drive. At about halfway for her, she calls and she's like, “You know, Carli sounded like she was ready to go. Is she progressing?” Doug was like, “Yeah. It's getting serious.” She's like, “Okay. Let's just meet at the military hospital. Let's meet there. I'll meet you at the parking lot.” We go ahead and make our way over there. It's about a 15-minute drive so it's not too bad. She gets there at the exact same time that we do. The doula had also let the hospital know that we were on our way. They were already expecting us. When we got to the L&D, the nurses took me back. They did all of the normal blood pressure. They hooked me up to the monitors. They asked me why I had decided to go to the military hospital in labor. I gave them my whole explanation and they were like, “Yeah. Okay, sounds good.” They were super nice and very supportive. I had also taken all of my labs with me, the GBS strep results, and all of the things as well as printed out my post-OP report for them to have as quick and easy access. Meagan: Which as a side note is always good to have even if you're not planning on going to another hospital because you never know if a precipitous labor happens or anything but it's really nice and usually providers enjoy having that. It brings comfort. Carlise: Yes so that's why we brought it. They also had seen that I had been in triage two weeks before because my daughter wasn't moving as much. I decided to go there so that way they could check the baby and also have me in the system already. I had talked to a doctor as well about coming there in labor. They asked me all of the things like if I knew the risks and benefits of VBAC, just took some medical history, and were very supportive. They were like, “Yeah, absolutely. We don't mind you coming here in labor at all.” I felt so confident. I felt so confident going in. The nurses had been like, “Okay, cool. Sounds good. Are you wanting an epidural? Are you wanting an IV?” I was like, “No. I don't want an epidural. I just want a heplock. I've been able to keep down fluids and everything so I'm not having any issues with that. I just want a heplock.” They were like, “Cool.” So very supportive and nice nurses.They were like, “Okay. We're going to get your support.” They went and got my doula and my husband and then they did a cervical check. At this point, my contractions were three minutes apart and very consistent. When they checked me, I was at 4 centimeters, 90% effaced, and -1 station. Baby was still up there a little bit. They also noticed some decels on the monitor. I was on my back and I was so incredibly uncomfortable. My daughter did not want me on my back. Every time I was on my back, it was awful. We had asked the nurses if that was a possibility and they were like, “Yes, but you bought your ticket for admission because of those decels.” We're like, “Okay, no problem.” We were expecting to get admitted anyways. So then the nurses were like, “Okay, we're going to get the doctor but I want you to know that he's very military.” My husband, my doula, and I are looking at each other and we're like, “Hmm. That's a weird way to describe a doctor. Okay.”We were just expecting very blunt and very upfront. While we were waiting, I was just so uncomfortable so I got up beside the bed by the nurses' station and was just rocking. I was having a really hard time with my contractions at this point. My doula came up behind me and gave me hip compressions. Then the doctor comes in. He doesn't introduce himself. He's not like, “Hi, how are you guys doing?” Literally nothing. He goes over to the doula and just goes, “And who are you?” The doula introduces herself and he's just going on and on about how she's in the way. He's yelling at her like, “You're in my way. You can't be in my way. You can't be in front of medical equipment.” She's just helping me with a contraction so he's not even recognizing or caring at all that I'm having contractions and that I'm in pain and she's trying to help me. He's just more concerned that she's in the way. So then she moves beside the bed and he looks at her and goes, “After the exam, we're going to have a chat.” We're like, “What is with this dude? Why is he being so aggressive?” So then the first thing that he says to me again just in a very disrespectful tone is, “Why are you here?” I'm like, “What a weird question to ask someone in labor.” I was like, “I'm in labor.” He goes, “No. Why are you at this facility when none of your prenatal care has been here at all?” The nurse was trying to tell him because again, I'm having contractions pretty often but no. He wanted all of the answers from me. He was just being so aggressive and I told him the whole explanation that I had already told the nurses. I also mentioned, “You're being really, really combative. You're making me uncomfortable.” He's like, “You know, I'm not trying to. That's not my intention, but you need to understand the position that you're putting me and this hospital in by changing your care at 40 weeks.” I was like, “Okay. I'm sorry, but I'm already here.” He just goes on for 30 minutes about how we're putting him in a precarious position and we need to understand this. We need to understand that. We don't have your records. I was like, “Dude, I brought you all of my labs. I brought you my post-op. What else do you want? What else do you need?” Again, he just keeps going on and on. Eventually, my husband was just like, “Okay, man. What do you need from us? Do I need to go to the other hospital and get your records? Can you request the records or can we just move on because we are getting nowhere?” The doctor was just like, “You need to understand.” I was just like, “Dude, we get it. We understand.” After that, he was like, “Okay, well I need to see if you are intact” which is a very weird way to say that he needs to check my waters. For some reason, I just had the fog. I knew that it was a swab. My doula was like, “It's okay. It's just a swab. They're just going to swab you to see if your water broke. It's not a big deal.” The nurses are like, “We're pretty sure that her water hasn't broken yet.” He's like, “No. I need to check myself.” So they're prepping the swab and then my doula hears him ask the nurse for lubricant. I could have sworn that he said something about a speculum but I'm not sure about that. My doula was like, “Hey, Carli. Do you consent to a cervical exam?” I was like, “Wait, no. No, no. I do not consent. I just had one not even ten minutes ago. So, no.” So then the doctor starts yelling at the doula again and saying, “Stop. You don't give medical advice.” Then I'm having a contraction and he's accusing her of making medical decisions, of moving me before the doctor came in the room, but he didn't like that I was beside the bed standing up. He thought that she did that. So then after the contraction, I was like, “Dude, no. She's only acting on my behalf when I have asked her to do something. You really need to back off. No. I do not consent to a cervical exam.” So then he explains why he wants to do a medical exam. Meagan: Again, you had just had one not long ago. Carlise: Right, exactly. Meagan: A little backstory, guys. I was reading this story on social media and I remember when I was reading this, I was like, “Why? Why? Why?” Every time, in my head, I'm like, “Why do we need to do this? Why do we need to do this? They just did this.” I was putting myself in your situation. Carlise: It was so aggravating. The fact that he was prepping the cervical check without talking to me first. The doula had to mention it. You're like, “Okay, that's a super big red flag. Thank you for letting me know,” because if she wasn't there, my husband would have no idea. So he explains why he wants to do a cervical check again and I'm like, “No. I don't want a cervical check.” So then he goes and sits down, stops prepping any exam at all, and he's like, “I'm a really good doctor but I need to be able to do my job.” I'm like, “Dude. I already said that you could do the swab to check my water. I'm not refusing your care. I just don't want a cervical exam.” He's like, “No. You're refusing my care. I have to do both in order to–”Meagan: Make an assessment. Carlise: Make a decision. I was like, “Okay. I'm really uncomfortable with your insistence here. I want a new doctor. You're not listening to me. You don't seem to care that I'm having contractions every three minutes. I want a new doctor.” He goes, “There isn't one.” I'm like, “What?” He's like, “Yeah. I'm it.” So then the doula was like, “Okay. There has to be somebody on call. Can you go ahead and call them in?” So then he says, “Stop” again to her and says, “I do not engage with you.” I was like, “Okay. I'm going to repeat the question. Can you call the person who's on call please?” He was like, “No, there isn't anybody on call. It's just me. The next provider doesn't get in until 8:00 AM.” At this point, it's around 4:00ish. I was like, “Okay. Can I just labor with the nurses? Because you're not touching me.” Meagan: And the nurses were being so great. Carlise: They kept trying to interject and answer questions for me but he wanted the answers from me. At that point, I was like, “Okay, dude. Just get out. Everybody needs to leave. I need to talk to my doula and my husband.” They go ahead and leave. I'm like, “Okay. I don't know what to do.” I'm freaking out. My doula was like, “It's okay. You're fine. We can stay here and deal with this dude. We can go ahead and just leave and go home. Your contractions are probably going to slow down since we're dealing with this or we can go straight to the other hospital.” I was like, “Okay. Let's definitely just leave. I'm done.” We told him that we were leaving and he just seemed shocked. Meagan: I'm sure. Carlise: Just completely shocked. I was just like, “No. We're leaving.” So then they were like, “You have to sign out AMA then.” I was like, “Cool. I'll go ahead and do that. You're not touching me.” We went ahead and signed the paper. As we were walking out, I'm having to stop every minute. The doula is like, “Okay. Yeah. We've got to go straight to the hospital.” We ended up, and in mind fog, I was like, “I forgot my birth plan so we're going to run home real fast. I'm going to get my birth plan.” That turned into an F-1 pitstop because I'm over here with really, really low sounding and having a rough time. Doug, my husband, is also freaking out. He's like, “We're going to have a car baby.” Meagan: Oh yeah, I'm sure. Carlise: He's just panicking. So he's speeding on the way to the other hospital. We get there and I had never gone through that entrance before. I had always gone in a different one on the back because my prenatal care was with Texas Tech and UMC, they're right next to each other. So I always went into a different entrance. So the entrance that we went into, I had no idea where to go. I'm over here. I swear I'm about to push and we don't know where to go. This super nice lady who was coming into work was like, “Do you guys need a wheelchair?” Doug was going to say no! I'm like, “Yes. Yes, I do.” So she gets a wheelchair. She brings us up to triage. As soon as we get up there and there was a trash can right next to the elevator. I'm just throwing up right next to the elevator. They're trying to get Doug to fill out paperwork and have me sign things. I'm just kind of dying. Then I needed to go to the bathroom. I didn't need to push. I just needed to go to the bathroom. I go in there and my water breaks. My plug comes out. So then I'm just gripping the walls. I'm just blinded here by my contractions. So they get me into a triage bed and they're like, “Oh yeah. Yep. Mhmm. She is ready to go. She is fully dilated. Baby is definitely ready.” The doula is over here like, “Okay, yeah. We need to switch her bed too.” So they switched me into a labor and delivery room. She's calling all of the shots here because the lights were so bright. I'm over here like, “Oh man.” So she's like, “Okay, those lights need to be dimmed. We need to take this gown off of her.” She was taking off my TENS unit. They're trying to put on monitors and I'm promptly trying to take them off so just being very unhelpful which I did not care about. So then they were trying to get the monitor on to check the baby. I was on my hands and knees which they did not want me on. I did not care. The doula is trying to help so she had reclined the bed so that I could lean over it so that way they could get the monitors on. That actually ended up working super, super well. Then I was feeling the need to push. Then I was just really self-conscious because I was feeling like I needed to poop. I was just like, “Oh no. This is horrible.” She's like, “No, that's normal. It's fine.” I was like, “No, I actually think I need to go.” So she's like, “It's fine. They're going to catch it. Don't even worry about it. Just focus on the baby right now. You're okay.” She snapped me out of it. I was like, “Okay, we've got this.”I was pushing and they were like, “No, no, no, no. The doctor's not in. Don't push. Don't push yet.” I was like, “I'm not not pushing so y'all need to figure it out.” So then the doula's over here like, “She's crowning. Baby's crowning right now.” Then they're just rushing in and I could feel the ring of fire. I was like, “Okay. I need to pause for just a minute,” because I could feel if I kept going that I was going to tear up. I honestly loved that I could feel that versus having an epidural and not being able to feel that. Within another couple of pushes, baby was out and I didn't have any tearing. I didn't have any issues at all whatsoever. I did not get the Pitocin for the delivery of the placenta and I didn't have the IV. I didn't have anything, just honestly the most natural birth except for the hospital situation. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. But no interventions other than maybe a cervical exam here and there. Carlise: Exactly. It went super well honestly overall and I was so proud of myself because I was just like, “I did that and I was able to advocate for myself.” My doula was amazing. My husband was very supportive even though he was freaking out. Meagan: Oh I'm sure. Yeah. Carlise: He told his dad. He's like, “It was super, super intense. The last couple of pushes, she sounded like a banshee and then baby was out.” I was like, “Wow, babe. Thank you. Thanks. That's super sweet of you.” The nurses afterward kept coming in and they were like, “Okay, we need to drain your IV and we need to check your stitches.” I'm over here like, “No guys, I don't have any of that.” They're like, “Wow, okay. You're the easy patient.” That birth, I was able to feel her before she came out. That was amazing. She got right on my chest. Delivering the placenta was super easy. I love that I can remember it and I'm proud of myself. The first thing that I said after birth was very colorful which definitely included, “F that doctor” which we then had to be like, “No, no. Not you, ma'am. Sorry.”Meagan: Yeah, yeah. I can relate to that one because that's what I said. I said, “Screw you,” and then I named the doctor. Take that. Carlise: Mhmm. I was just amazed and then everybody that I tell when I'm like, “Yeah. I left the hospital at one-minute contractions,” and they're like, “Oh, no.” I was like, “Yeah, no. I would rather have had a car baby legitimately–”Meagan: –than to go there. Carlise: Absolutely not. I was so disappointed and the fact is that's what we encountered. We put in all of the complaints that we could possibly put in and I'm still waiting on the head of OB to contact me but the doula had a really, really good meeting actually with the head of OB, a lot of the staff, the provost marshall apparently was in there as well. Meagan: Wow. How did she connect? How did she go about doing that? Carlise: Apparently, with doulas, there is a different system for them. I'm not entirely sure but there are different routes that they can go because they are professional birth workers. She had contacted the head of OB and then the head of OB was like, “Okay, this is really serious.” So I think they just coordinated together. The end of that resulted in a giant meeting with all of the OBs to basically educate them on what to do when a doula comes in. Meagan: Oh wow!Carlise: And that doctor that we encountered has to go to those meetings. My doula's teaching it. It's a class. I was like, “Yeah man. You're going to deal with that.” Meagan: That's actually really cool to help that space be a little bit more collaborative because I feel like we are a little spoiled here in Utah. People are like, “How do the doctors treat you and handle things when you are in there?” Usually nine times out of ten, it's very friendly and it's not hostile like that but if it were, I think that we would probably want to be doing something like that as well and say, “Hey, we are all here for this patient. We are all one team here. We're not here to be combative and create trauma emotionally.” That's really cool. That's really awesome. Good for your doula. Carlise: Yeah. I was so proud of her, especially being yelled at by a doctor. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Carlise: She's trying to advocate for me as much as she can but she also doesn't want security called on her so she was having to find a balance between that. Meagan: And she doesn't want to make it any worse for you. Carlise: Exactly. That was super, super odd. The fact that I meant to mention it in my story, but he had been quizzing me over VBAC facts, then he was telling me that I was wrong. I was just like, “What?” and just freaking out. She just helped me so much. I'm a huge advocate for doulas and having one and I 100% recommend anybody to have one for sure. My husband would have had just no idea exactly how to advocate for me in the way that my doula had. It was great. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there are so many benefits of doulas but just like we were saying, she helped him too. She helped him through this process I'm sure to feel more comfortable and at ease with the things that were taking place. Even that alone whether you had a lot of help with counterpressure and stuff like that but being able to have a sounding board and someone there that you feel is on your team and it's not you two against one person. I'm sure that brought so much comfort to him. Carlise: 100%. The fact that the doula had also done some childbirth education with him so that he knew how baby comes out and the different stages as well. Meagan: Yes and then when you have a provider questioning the facts around VBAC and you're saying this and then they're saying no or they're shutting you down or they're giving you false percentages which I know is a thing, that can be really, really scary if a partner is not educated or doesn't know ahead of time. So that's another really great pro of doulas is that they usually meet with you before, counsel, and go over all of those stats. I remember the feeling. I literally was on the treadmill walking, trying to pass the time because I hate the treadmill, reading your story and I'm like, “Oh my gosh. This is just so intense. It's so intense.” Carlise: It was nuts. When I was trying to prep my husband for the VBAC, I'm pretty sure he just got really annoyed by me listening to this podcast all of the time. I'd be like, “Babe, you should have heard this from this mom.” He's just like, “Ugh, I can't wait until you've had the baby because I'm so done hearing about all of these VBACs all of the time and all of these stories.” But then honestly, it prepared him. I was like, “Babe, this can happen,” so when we were facing this doctor, he wasn't second-guessing me at all. When I told the doctor the different things that I knew about VBAC because he wanted to make sure that I knew, Doug was like, “No. She definitely knows the stuff. She could spout this off normally.” He was confident. That made me more confident and with my doula being there, it helped a lot. Meagan: That makes me smile. I love it. Now you can be like, “Yeah, now I'm one of those people on the podcast.” Carlise: Mhmm, yeah. He was like, “I get to hear this story for the 35th time.” Meagan: I love it. Carlise: I was like, “Last time, babe. Last time.” Meagan: Last time. Maybe, maybe not. You'll be sharing it for years. You'll be sharing it for years. Carlise: Exactly. Meagan: Well I want to talk a little bit about the AMA, the Against Medical Advice form. It is one that like I said, maybe I'm crazy. It might have been a year ago actually that we talked about. It's not one that happens often or that people maybe even know exists. I just want to give a little side note. It's not something I suggest always doing like, “I'm just going to sign this AMA.” Against Medical Advice forms are taken pretty seriously but when you are in a combative, hostile environment, an AMA may be something that can get you out of that experience. I, as a doula, was at a birth where a mom chose to sign an AMA. From a doula's standpoint, it was really interesting. I was like, “I would have totally done that too as a mom.” We were very much in labor. It was very clear that we were in labor but the toco, the monitor, wasn't picking up the contractions. This doctor comes in very rudely and says, “You're not even contracting. I don't even understand why you're here.” She looks at me and her husband. She's like, “I'm contracting, right?” We're like, “Yeah, you're contracting. You're doing really great.” They're like, “We're probably just going to send you home anyways so we can just sit here and wait,” and just was very rude, questioning her, and pretty much saying that she was not even in labor and that she was over the top. Carlise: Oh, lovely. Meagan: This one doctor that came in was like, “You are just highly sensitive and being overdramatic. Maybe you should learn how to cope better because you're not even contracting yet,” and just talking down and being very rude. She's vomiting. She's shaking. She is clearly laboring. They leave and she turns to us and says, “What other hospital takes my insurance?” As a doula, I wasn't expecting that but at the same time, I should have expected that because of how rude they were to her. I said, “Well, this hospital and this hospital.” She rips out her IV because they had given her an IV for fluids for vomiting. She ripped it off, was holding her arm, and was like, “Let's go!”Carlise: That's intense. Meagan: I was like, “What?!” She was literally holding her arm and she was like, “I am done.” Her husband was like, “Me too.” They were getting her dressed and as a doula, I'm like, “Okay. I go where you go.” Carlise: Man, all right. We're doing this now. Okay. Meagan: She's walking out and they're like, “What are you doing? What are you doing?” They're freaking out and she's like, “I'm leaving. I am going somewhere else to have my baby. You said that you were going to send me home anyways so I am going home.” They were like, “We'll have to have you sign an AMA.” She was like, “Where do I sign?” They were like, “Oh, but your insurance won't cover this.” Carlise: Mhmm, yeah. Okay. Meagan: She was like, “I don't care. I'm signing this AMA.” We went. We were 6.5-7 centimeters when we got to the hospital and had a baby a couple of hours later. Dad caught the baby. It was a beautiful, beautiful experience. So AMA, what does that mean? It's really leaving the hospital without the physician's advice before they decide to discharge you. It says right here in a NCBI which we will make sure that this is in the show notes today if you want to read a little bit more. But it says, “Leaving a hospital against a physician's advice may expose the patient to risk of an inadequately treated medical problem and result in the need for readmission.” That is important to remember, that we as parents know that. We are signing this form and we are saying, “We assume the risk of us leaving because we are leaving against your advice,” but I also think it's important for us to know and follow our mom's gut to be like, “I'm just going to have this baby and do this.”Carlise: 100%. Meagan: You have to think about it. If you are in an AMA situation, you want to really think about it. You want to weigh out the pros and cons and you want to be educated. If you're listening to this podcast, you're definitely starting your education because as you mentioned, you learn along all of these stories. But it's a big thing. The article says, “The problem with AMA discharge is the prevalence of risk and costs. It can formulate recommendations of managing and preventing them on the basis of available evidence.” That's so hard because they can say, “Well, this happened because you left,” or even the cost of insurance. They can say, “Oh, well we won't do this because you left against our advice.” So it's important to definitely learn more about an AMA and why you would sign an AMA but know that an AMA exists because if you are in a hostile environment, it's probably not a healthy one. Carlise: Right and that was my thing too. I didn't feel safe with this care provider and then being told, “No, there isn't another provider,” I feel like there are going to be so many more interventions and so many things that are going to be done without my consenting because obviously, they already tried to do that once. I would rather sign an AMA and leave than to have you touch me and cause issues that shouldn't have been caused at all. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think it's important to know that it exists and then know the pros and cons. It's just one of those other things. Know the pros and cons of signing an AMA or what that entails and then having that backup plan. But just know that it exists because for the client of mine, she was like, “I couldn't have stayed there. I was feeling so anxious. I was feeling so triggered and traumatized by what they were doing and what they were saying to me.”She said, “The second I walked into this new hospital, I just truly felt 100% at ease. 100% at ease.” So yeah. It's so important to feel that comfort, know your options, and look at you. You did! You went and you had an unmedicated, no-intervention VBAC. Carlise: Yeah. Honestly, it's been amazing. The recovery has been fantastic and I am so proud of me and every mama who has had a VBAC and had to fight for it. That's just awesome. Meagan: You should be so proud of yourself. Congratulations. Thank you for coming on and sharing this story. I also want to end with a preface by saying that sharing this story is not to bash an OB or anything like that. Carlise: 100%. Meagan: It's not anything like that because OBs are great. I'm sure he was caught off guard. He had his stuff but at the same time very much acted in a very unprofessional way. Carlise: Absolutely. Meagan: It's important to know all sides of things. Carlise: 100%. Absolutely. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Birth Story 2: Jordan's Birth Story: Breech, Successful ECV, and Labored C-Section Birth In this episode, Jordan shares her birth story of her first baby! Jordan discovered her baby was breech during the third trimester, after planning an unmedicated hospital birth. She did ALL the things, but baby did not flip headdown, so opted to try for ECV! The ECV was successful and she went into spontaneous labor! After laboring for several hours, stalling at 8cm, she decided to meet her baby with a cesarean birth. Jordan reflects on her pregnancy and birth experience with us, and we are thankful for her taking the time to share her story with you all! In this episode: Jordan shares how she did ALL the things to flip her baby head down ECV: Manually rotating baby head down Spontaneous labor and navigating a labor stall at 8cm Choosing a Cesarean birth⁠ Want to share your birth story on our podcast? ⁠Submit your birth story on our website! Prepare for your birth with us: ⁠⁠⁠Childbirth Education Courses⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Prenatal Fitness Programs⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Pelvic Floor Prep for Birth⁠⁠⁠ Check out our ⁠⁠⁠⁠website here⁠⁠⁠⁠, our ⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram here⁠⁠⁠⁠, and our ⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook here⁠⁠⁠⁠! The MamasteFit Podcast Birth Story Friday episodes are sponsored by Bao Bei, a perinatal clothing company that supports your pregnancy, birth, and beyond with their expertly curated support-wear garments.  ⁠⁠Use code MAMASTEFIT for 15% off your order.

In today's episode Hollie shares her three very different vaginal birth experiences. Her first baby was measuring big on third trimester scans so while a few obstetricians told her a planned caesarean was the safest option, she chose to be induced. She opted for an epidural and birthed her baby within six hours of the syntocinon drip starting. Four months later she discovered she was pregnant again and at her 19 week scan the sonographer noticed that her cervix was shortening. Hollie had a cervical stitch inserted and later had it removed at 37 weeks. She went into spontaneous labour a week afterwards and noticed a significant difference to the induced labour with her first baby. Her third pregnancy was planned and her labour was fast; she birthed her breech baby at home before the paramedics arrived. --------------------- Prepare for a positive birth experience with my new book .

Abby has always had a heart for birth. She became doula-certified long before becoming a mother and even introduced her husband to The Business of Being Born on their second date! She knew that undisturbed, physiological birth was the way she wanted to go.But Abby's birth experiences were filled with wild twists and turns including chorioamnionitis, posterior and breech positioning, pulmonary embolisms, hemorrhaging, multiple miscarriages, an ICU stay, and many blood transfusions. With the odds stacked against her, Abby did not give up the fight. She knew deep in her soul that a VBA2C was something she could do.AND SHE DID!Fresh off of her VBA2C, Abby shares every intense, tender, and raw moment of her journey. We know you'll love Abby just as much as we do.Additional LinksAbby's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, this is Meagan with The VBAC Link and today we have another beautiful story for you. We are so excited to share all of these stories in this beautiful 2023. It's going to be a great year. That is what I keep saying. It's going to be a great year. No more weird viruses and all of the things. It's just going to be a good, positive year and we are starting this week out with a positive VBAC story. We have Abby with us today and she is from North Carolina. Is that correct? Abby: Yes, Charlotte, North Carolina. Meagan: Yes, I love it. We have quite a few doulas in North Carolina as well. Maybe you guys could all connect. She is actually a doula as well. She is not practicing right now because she has a whole bunch of little bodies around, but this birth has totally motivated and boosted her spirits into the day that she does get back into doula work. So Abby, welcome. Review of the WeekMeagan: I am going to share a quick review and then we will jump right into your beautiful story. Abby: I can't wait. Meagan: Me neither. I really can't wait for your story. This is PaigeBroadway. She shared her review and it was on Apple Podcasts. It says, “Allowing me to believe in myself.” Just that subject right there makes me so happy because that is exactly why The VBAC Link exists is allowing you to believe in yourself. We talk about this all of the time. It's to believe in yourself to make the decision that is best for you. We don't always have to have a VBAC. We don't always have to have a repeat Cesarean. Or maybe a VBAC is chosen to a repeat Cesarean or a scheduled one. It doesn't matter the way we birth, but as long as we believe in ourselves and we believe in our ability to make the right choice for us, that is exactly what this podcast is for. Her review says, “My husband and I are currently trying to conceive. I knew immediately after my C-section that I never wanted to have an experience like that again. This podcast has already given me the strength to switch providers and the knowledge to prepare for a VBAC. I can do this.” Paige, you absolutely can do this. Just like all of the others here, right? Right, Abby? Do you feel like that? Abby: Oh my gosh. That is just the most encouraging thing and that's how I felt about The VBAC Link for five years and now I'm here telling my story. So yes, Paige. You can do it. You really can. Meagan: Yes. You really, really can. We always accept more reviews. You can drop us an email at info@thevbaclink.com or Apple Podcasts or Google Play. You can send us a message on Instagram. Wherever it may be, we love to read your reviews. We love to receive your reviews. So definitely if you wouldn't mind, push pause and drop us a review. Abby's StoriesMeagan: Hello, women of strength. This is Meagan. I am so happy that you are listening to the podcast. When I was preparing for my vaginal birth after two Cesareans, it was hard to find the evidence-based information in one spot. It could lead me to feel lonely or even confused. This is why Julie and I created The VBAC Link Podcast. Did you know that we also send out emails with helpful tips and advice on how to achieve your VBAC all easily digestible in one email form? Just head over to thevbaclink.com. Okay, Abby. We have so many stories on this podcast and I know that like you said, here you've been for five years and now you are here sharing your story. You are just fresh. You are fresh out of it, right? 2 weeks? Abby: Very fresh. I just stopped wearing Depends the other day. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. That is fresh. That is fresh out of it. Abby: Very fresh. Meagan: Fresh out of birth. Sometimes I feel like right out of birth is so fun because again, it's so fresh and it's in the forefront of your mind so you have all of the detailed things to share. I am so, so, so excited for you to share your story. So go ahead. Abby: Oh my goodness. Well, I should start at the beginning about five years ago. My daughter is turning five on January 31st, so it's been almost exactly five years since she was born. I went to a doula training when I was 20-22ish years old way before my husband and I met. On our first date, he told me that he didn't want to be in the room when the baby was born. I literally told him that he should go on a date with someone else because it was so important. I was like, “This isn't going to work out.” I showed him The Business of Being Born on our second date and he has changed dramatically since then. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I'm dying. Abby: But I feel like that just gives a little bit of a background of who I am as a human being. Meagan: And your passion. Abby: I feel very strongly about it. Yes, yeah. I was really quite young. Honestly, I have to give a shoutout to a friend of mine who is now a midwife but was a doula at the time. We went on a mission trip to Africa. We were sitting on a bed in Uganda and she was talking about how beautiful birth was. I was a teenager. I think I was soon to turn 21. It was like, “Why would you not get an epidural?” I was very far away from childbearing years at the time. I just didn't understand. She just sat patiently with me and explained in such a beautiful way how beautiful birth is and that it can create a mother and that it's worth it to go through what you go through and come out on the other side of it. It was just such a meaningful conversation for me. It really shifted my whole worldview and made me who I am today.  It's interesting thinking back on that girl who would have said, “Why would you not get an epidural? Why would you want to have a natural childbirth?” to the way that my stories ended up which is just bananas. Needless to say, I was very crunchy and felt like, “Okay. I'd love to have a home birth.” It was my first baby, so my husband was like, “Maybe we should do a birth center.” At the time, there was a birth center in Charlotte, so that's the direction that we went. I was just picturing the twinkle lights and a tub and all of the things that you see on Instagram for birth. That was the mental picture that existed in my brain. At that time, I was listening to another birth podcast and I specifically remember skipping over C-section stories. I was just not interested in them. I didn't even think it applied. It wasn't intentional. It was, “Oh, well I don't need to listen to those because I'm not going to have a C-section.”Meagan: That's not what I'm doing. Exactly.Abby: Yeah, that's not what I'm doing, so why would I need to listen to that? In retrospect, that really messed me up and I love that y'all's podcast mentions that this is a podcast for all moms. This does not need to just be people who have had C-sections. I think listening to The VBAC Link can help you prepare to a) not have a C-section, but also prepare for a C-section if that's what has to happen for you. It was just a really difficult transition for me from the twinkle light picture to ending up with a C-section. But my pregnancy with Hadley was fine. It's funny because I'm older now and I'm like, “Oh, that pregnancy was great.” I was in great shape and I was much younger. Everything was fine and easier. I did have a rib pop out of place. I know now that she was sunny-side up for almost the entire pregnancy, so my whole third trimester was excruciatingly painful. I had never seen a chiropractor before that, so I went to a chiropractor eventually but it was really just like bandaids. It wasn't really helping because my body was not in the right condition beforehand. I'm a really big proponent of bodywork. That will come back in the rest of my story. But at the time, I didn't know what I didn't know. I was in a lot of pain toward the end, but other than that, everything was fine. I went overdue which I expected. I was excited when I made it to 37 because I was still allowed to be at the birth center. I think I was probably pretty ready. I tried to do some induction acupuncture, and I'm not sure if it actually did anything but a couple of days later, I started having what I felt like were contractions. I had never been in labor before, so they were two minutes apart but really, really short and not getting any longer. I was just confused.My doula-gut was like, “This feels off, but also I'm dying.” I don't know what to do about this. So we called my doula over and went to the birth center after almost 48 hours of having those contractions at home. Again, if I knew then what I know now, I would have taken a bath and had some Epsom salts. It was probably prodromal labor. We went to the birth center and I can't not tell this part of the story. I told the midwife, “If you tell me that I'm 1 centimeter, I'm going to kick you in the face.” She backed up because I was only 1 centimeter. Oh, I was like, “No, don't back up. Come in my face and tell me I'm a 4 or something.” I just knew at that point that it was over because I was like, “I'm so tired. This is the point when I'm asking for an epidural and I'm 1 centimeter.” How could I possibly get through this?The worst news was yet to come. She said, “You have to transfer to the hospital. You have a fever of 100.2.” She thought that I had chorio. I think, I don't know how to say the actual word. It's chorioamnionitis. Meagan: Yeah. That's why they call it chorio. Abby: Exactly. Meagan: Infection. It's an infection. Abby: Right. It's a uterine infection. She said, “I'm sorry. I'm diagnosing you with a uterine infection. You have to go to the hospital.” I was just devastated. Honestly, that was the point of my birth where I feel like I really lost all of my power as a person and a mother. The rest of the birth felt like it just happened to me. I was not an active participant. I went to the hospital and they said, “You actually don't have a fever,” because the hospital system's standard of fever is over 100, and at the hospital, I was 99.7 or something. So they said, “You don't have a fever. We're going to let you labor.”Meagan: So it went down?Abby: I don't know if it went down or if it was just a different thermometer and they were like, “According to us, you don't have a fever so we'll let you labor.” In retrospect, it was good news because if they had just sliced me open the second I got there, I probably would have never set foot in a hospital again and that would have been very bad news for my second birth. So I think that would have really turned me off of the medical system altogether and doctors. I just would have gone real red pill in the other direction. So they let me labor, but I ended up with an epidural at 1 centimeter. I tried to get in the little dinky shower at the hospital and it was cold half water. I was like, “This is doing nothing.” I wanted to be in the tub at the birth center. I ended up with an epidural flat on my back and at that point, you're like, “Well, who cares? If I'm already here, why not do Pitocin? Why not break my water?” So thus began the cascade of interventions ironically that started with an epidural. I feel like that's not always the case, but that was very much the cascade of interventions for me. I did not want them to break my water, but eventually, they did. I was there for three days and they really let me go for a really long time. Meagan: That's actually really impressive for a hospital.Abby: I was so pleased with the care that I received. Both of the OBs that were flipping on and off of call were very patient with me. I think they kind of knew, “Oh, this is one of those birth center moms. We might as well just let her try.” Meagan: Let her do it. Abby: That was kind of a vibe that I got, but it was genuine. They really were like, “Yeah. You can totally do this.” But really, it was an unnecessary induction because I was 1 centimeter and I wasn't really in labor. I wasn't having true labor contractions. I wish that I had just gone home and gone to sleep, but we wouldn't be here having this conversation if that happened. I got to 10 eventually and I made it to pushing eventually. The epidural that I had was so strong that I could not feel from my shoulders all the way down. I was numb. I've never been so numb in my life, but again, I didn't know that's not what an epidural was supposed to feel like. They were telling me to push and I was just like, “What do you mean?” They told me to lift my legs up and I was like, “I can't hold my legs. They weigh 4000 pounds. What are you talking about?” The nurses were not as kind as the OBs and I could tell that they were not approving of my pushing and that it wasn't doing what it was supposed to be doing. But the benefit of Hadley's birth, she asked that I say her name on the podcast, so the benefit of Hadley's birth was that by the time I made it to 10 and pushing, they tried to use the vacuum seven times. They tried all of the things. They really, really let me go. So by the time they said it was time for a C-section, I really trusted them. I didn't feel like it was a snap judgment. I felt like, “You know what? Okay. I agree. If this isn't working, it's not working. There's nothing else we can do.” So come to find out, she was sunny-side up. Meagan: I was going to say, was she sunny-side up still?Abby: She was. She was. So when they had broken my water, she basically got stuck up in that broken rib cage and never made it around my pubic bone. I also did have chorio we found out after. Meagan: Oh no way. Abby: It was just the wildest. We joke that it was a Murphy's Law birth and that every random thing could have possibly happened, but everyone was fine. I was fine. Hadley was fine, but it was deeply traumatic for me. I really did not feel like I was present for it at all. It was really difficult to feel like I wanted to have this empowering, personal experience and it was so impersonal and medicalized. I was separated from Hadley for the first few hours of her life and they took me into, I don't even know what it's called, but it was a terrible experience. My husband was super traumatized because it wasn't what he thought was happening either and it was really, really difficult for us. That is really when I started listening to The VBAC Link right away. I was like, “Done. I'm having a VBAC. That was terrible. I'm not doing that again.” I felt pretty strongly about that. Unfortunately, it took us two and a half years to get pregnant with our second. We had three miscarriages along the way, so a lot of our story has been “not right nows” and “maybe laters”. We are really thankful for the children that we have which is wild how they all got here at the correct time. We were filling out adoption paperwork in January 2021 after so long of trying and found out on February 1st the day after my 5-year-old's third birthday that we were pregnant. It was the darkest line I've seen since I was pregnant with Hadley. It was like, “This is the baby. This is the one. She's going to stick around.” I felt like this was my VBAC. I don't know if that was just my personality and my, “Oh, this is going to happen. I'm going to manhandle this into being the case,” but I very much wanted it to be my VBAC. That pregnancy went kind of similarly with rib pain. I started chiropractic earlier this time, but still really struggled with the rib. Her name is Ginnie. Ginnie was sunny-side up the whole time, so that was against me from the beginning that she was sunny-side up, but again, I don't know how I didn't spend more time thinking about it or trying to get her into a better position, but I just didn't. It was honestly the height of COVID and I had a toddler. Life was just still happening, so I went into labor I thought. I was 39 weeks exactly and my water broke at home. I was elated because, with Hadley, my water didn't break on its own so I felt like, “Oh my gosh. Labor is starting. I'm going into labor naturally. This is exactly what I wanted.”I stood up and it was a gush. It was very much my water. It was no mistaking, “Okay, that's not pee. Definitely, my water has broken.” I was so excited and then nothing happened at all. Meagan: I can totally relate to that. Abby: Yes. I've listened to your birth stories. It was a Sunday so a friend came to pick up our toddler and we were all excited. We were going to have a baby. Nothing. Meagan: Nothing. Abby: Crickets. Not even a single cramp. I walked four miles that day. We did all of the things and it just was like no. We went to sleep that night and I was like, “I'm not going to the hospital until 24 hours and then I'm not even going to tell the hospital that it's been that long,” which is sort of what happened. We went in about 24 hours later and I still had not had a single contraction. Absolutely nothing happened. Meagan: Were you still leaking?Abby: Yes. Yeah. Meagan: Still coming. Abby: Again with the diapers, I need to buy stock in Depends at this point. But yes it was definitely my water and it was definitely not doing anything. I went to the hospital. Triage takes a million hours when you're not in active labor, so we were in triage forever and they wanted to get me hooked up to continuous fetal monitoring. I said, “Oh, okay. So I'll have the wireless one.” They were like, “Oh, it doesn't work.” I was like, “That's not what I signed up for.” My practice was very like, “Yes, you can have a VBAC.” Actually, my midwife was very, “You can have a VBAC,” but she was part of a practice that had OBs and you sort of don't know who you're going to get until the day of. I felt very supported throughout my whole pregnancy. Everyone thought I was going to have a VBAC. I had plenty of those conversations with OBs that they're like, “Okay, so just so you know, here are the risks.” I'm like, “Yeah, yeah. I know all of the risks. I've done the research. Thank you very much for informing me. Have a nice day.” When I think back, I think there were probably some red flags that it was friendly but not supportive.Meagan: Tolerant. Abby: Yes, a tolerant but not supportive practice. But again, I didn't know that until I knew that. I started an induction. My contractions started getting regular. It worked. I was dilating and I made it to about 6 centimeters. I don't think I mentioned this before but my husband had childhood cancer, so he has pretty severe medical trauma and hospitals are particularly triggering for him. Other people being in pain is also triggering for him. Meagan: I'm sure, yeah. Abby: Around 6 centimeters, I was starting to need a little bit more support. My doula, because inductions take forever, was like, “I'm just going to go home and spend the day at home. I'll come back at night when you really need it.” I was chilling. I was just watching Friends and hanging out until I wasn't. It started to pick up really quickly. What made me start to need more support was that they turned off the Pitocin when I had to go to the bathroom and then they turned it back on and didn't change the number. I think it was at a 9, but something about turning it off and turning it back on made my body go, “Whoa. That was really intense.” All of a sudden it felt like insane Pit contractions. My husband started to have a really hard time supporting me through it and my doula was stuck in line at Chick-fil-A. You know, once you're in the line, you can't get out of the drive-thru. Meagan: Of all the places too, darn it. Abby: We wanted it. I was like, “Bring me food. I want to eat something. I'm going to break all of these rules.” Meagan: She's getting everyone food and stuck. Abby: Yes, she's totally stuck. My husband needed to eat dinner. It had been a long day already, so she was stuck. I was like, “You know what? I have peace about this. I'm going to get an epidural. I'm going to ask for an epidural.” I really was pretty okay. I was not dying mentally at this point, but I felt like my husband needed a little break from me not being okay and I felt like, “I'm at a 6. I got an epidural at 1 centimeter last time so all right. We're doing it. This is happening. Things are progressing. Let's do it.” Naturally, my doula got back right before they were placing the epidural. She was like, “What are you doing? We're not doing an epidural. Let me do some hip compressions. What are you talking about?” She's very, “Come on. Let's do this.” That's why I hired her because I needed that, but I had made up my mind mentally. Meagan: Yeah, which is okay.Abby: Yes. Very much so. I think it is honestly what needed to happen for a litany of reasons. But once my doula got back, she noticed that my heart rate kept beeping on the monitor and when you're in hospitals, you hear beeping all of the time so we weren't paying attention to what the beeping was. It wasn't the baby's, so no one was really all that concerned, but my heart rate was insanely high. So much so that my doula was checking my Apple Watch for my history of what my normal heart rate was. She was like, “Give me your Apple Watch and let me look at what this normally is,” but I had only gotten my Apple Watch while I was pregnant, so I didn't have a baseline, “This is my normal heart rate.” Basically, the nurses just turned down the volume on my heart rate monitor that was saying, “Alert, alert! Something is wrong with this woman.” Meagan: That could be a sign of infection. Abby: It could be a sign of a lot of things. Meagan: A whole bunch of other things, yes. Abby: It seemed like my doula was the only one who was concerned about that. I was concerned only about having a VBAC so I was like, “Whatever. I don't want any hindrances to the VBAC. Don't panic about me because I'm good. Baby is good. I'm good. I'm fine.” Again, I made it to 10 and pushing. My heart rate was through the roof and I guess I need to rewind a little bit, sorry. I had a cough for the last four weeks of my pregnancy, maybe more like six. It was a dry cough and it was a the height of COVID, so I had 75 COVID tests because they said that I had COVID.” Meagan: Because you had a cough. Abby: Yes, exactly. They said that if I had COVID, my doula couldn't come into the birth with me. With my husband's history, I was like, “No, no. I have to have my doula. That's not an option.” I took 1000 COVID tests, but it was never COVID. It was never positive. I just had this dry cough that would not go away. The cough combined with the heart rate was really freaking my doula out even when I had an epidural. I took a little nap. I made it to 10 and pushing. When I was pushing, my cough really started to ramp up. I was coughing incessantly. I remember the midwives joking, “We're all going to have COVID at the end of this birth. Obviously, this lady has COVID because she is coughing up a storm.” We were talking about how one of the midwives had just gotten her taste or her smell back or something after having it. She was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm going to get it again.” It was all of this sort of lighthearted conversation, very, “Yeah, haha. We're all going to get COVID I guess.” Yes, except for my doula. She was like, “This is odd.” But she said, “You know, maybe you'll cough your baby out. Maybe it will help you. Maybe those pushes will help you get the baby out.” She was trying to be encouraging. I don't even remember. I should probably look at my notes on how long I pushed. I think it was a couple of hours and again, I had a sunny-side-up baby with my water broken. She was just lodged and would not come down. Meagan: Were they able to try and rotate at all or was she not low enough? Abby: Neither of the girls ever descended. I don't remember what station they were at, but it was high. I looked at a picture of my third baby at 37 weeks and my belly was so much lower at 37 weeks than either of the girls on the day I went into labor. They just never dropped. They were not ready really. So when they said that it was time, an OB came in who I had never met before and was not the kindest about the way that she shared that information with me. For me, I felt like, “Who's going to let me try for a VBAC after two? This is my opportunity to have a vaginal birth and if this is it, this is it. I can't.” But it felt like at that moment, everyone in the room just sort of fell to what she said. I didn't have a choice. Even my doula who I adore was like, “I think it is time.” So when your doula and your husband and your midwives all say, “I think it's time,” then what choice do you really have? Meagan: Well, you trust these people.Abby: Right, right. You also don't want to be the person who, this sounds horrible, but something happened to my baby because I was so hell-bent on having a vaginal birth. At that point, that's how the conversation felt. Her heart rate was dropping and it wasn't coming back up in between contractions. They were like, “Okay. I think it's time.” I reluctantly consented, but really, really struggled. I sobbed through the C-section and threw up through the C-section. I hate having my arms out like Jesus on the cross. It's just the worst thing in the world. It's just terrible. It's not for everyone. I feel like it's important for me to say that that was my experience. I have a friend who just had a C-section and she was like, “I thought that it was really cool to know that they were down there doing all of that stuff.” She had a great experience and I think that's amazing. I'm so glad she did, but for me, it was just so different than what I expected that it was deeply traumatizing for me, especially for the second time. But the baby came out and she was fine. I think it took her a couple of seconds to start breathing. I think she had some meconium or something, but they handed her to my husband. She was all cute and then they brought her over to me. She licked my cheek. I do remember having a very different reaction to meeting her than meeting my first daughter. With my first, I had never had a baby before and so I felt like the first thing I thought was, “I didn't think that's what she would look like.” I didn't feel like, “Oh my gosh, I made this human and I love it so much.” That was just not my experience. But with the second one, I had a three-year-old at the time and was like, “You're going to turn into the coolest little person,” and I knew how to love a child then so it felt much better and different which actually made the next part a lot harder. I still had my cough. It did not go away and after they had sewn me up on the table, every doctor had left the room and it was just the surgical techs and the people that are basically cleaning up the floor. I had to cough and my arms were still out. I was flat on my back and you know when you have a cough, you want to turn to the side or sit up and I couldn't do either of those things. My lips turned blue and they called a code. I was breathing so I don't know what the codes are. They pressed a big alarm and people came running. Brian, my husband, was holding the baby and they took her out of his arms and basically pushed him into the hallway so that he wouldn't see me die, I suppose was the thought, or drop the baby or who knows. I just wanted to turn over and I was trying to explain to these nurses while having a coughing fit, “Can you just let me roll over?” They were trying to put oxygen on my face. I was like, “That's not going to help this tickle in my throat. I don't want you to put oxygen on my face.” I was fighting them off. Meagan: I need to get up. Abby: Yeah, exactly. I was just like, “Why can't you understand me?” But I wasn't speaking words, so that's why. The first person who ran back into the room was my anesthesiologist and she apparently was a cardiac-specific anesthesiologist which I didn't even know was a thing. She took one look at me after I had settled down and said, “I believe that you just had a pulmonary embolism and you need to go to get a CT scan.” At that point, I didn't know what a pulmonary embolism was so I was not all that concerned about it. I was like, “You're silly. I just have a cough. I've had a cough for four weeks. What are you talking about?” I knew that my husband was going to be really upset obviously, but he wasn't going to be allowed to come with me to get a CT scan. I was like, “You have to let me go talk to my husband. I have to go tell him that I'm okay.” It's not funny, but it's now just sort of a dark humor inside joke that when I went to go talk to him, I was like, “Babe don't worry. It's just a pulmonary embolism.” He was like, “Abby, those kill people. That's not a just kind of thing.” They found several bilateral pulmonary embolisms in my lungs. One of my lungs was 98% occluded, so 2% away from not being able to make it. I spent the first two days of her life in the ICU. Again, it was COVID so I wasn't able to see her because everyone in the ICU was there for COVID. They were like, “We don't want your newborn to get sick,” and they were on different floors so they brought her to me one time and then I pumped milk for her that nurses took back and forth but it was really insane. Meagan: Wow. Abby: They gave me blood transfusions and immediately put me on heparin and a drip to start clearing up the blood clots and get them thinned out. When I got finally sent home from the hospital, I had to start blood thinner injections and do those for the next six weeks which unfortunately led to a postpartum hemorrhage. Meagan: Oh my land. Abby: It's a wild ride. This wasn't even that long ago. It was October 2021. I basically didn't have any postpartum bleeding for the first week. I was like, “Man, maybe the C-section is just the way to do it. Maybe this is making the bleeding a lot easier,” but what they think happened is that I had some major swelling and it was basically holding all of the blood in my uterus and by the time it opened up, it was like floodgates. I won't be too graphic, but when they tell you to call the doctor is when I called the doctor. I had a couple of other scary experiences at home. I passed some clots and they had given me some Cytotec which is supposed to squeeze the uterus. Meagan: Clamp the uterus down, yep. Abby: It clamped too much blood out and I lost too much blood in one hour basically. I passed out on the floor and I was on blood thinners so my mom caught my head because you can get a brain bleed if something happens while you are on blood thinners. I had to get a blood transfusion the next day. My postpartum experience was recovering from a C-section, recovering from the ICU, and then postpartum hemorrhages and I think I had three blood transfusions after being outside of the hospital. Meagan: Holy cow. Abby: I don't even know how to end that story and shift to the next one because it really was not that long ago. That daughter is now 15 months old. Like I said, it took us a long time to get pregnant with her so I suppose you could say that we were not all that cautious after she was born. Six months later, we found out that we were pregnant. Well, we didn't know at the time that it was a boy, but we found out that we were pregnant. I had already been asking the hematologist and the pulmonologist, literally everyone. I was like, “So what happens when I get pregnant? Do I need to be on the blood thinner injections on day one? How does this work? What am I going to do?” They all thought I was crazy because they were like, “This chick almost just died. Why is she thinking about getting pregnant?” I was like, “Is this ruling me out of a VBAC?” I had all of the questions. I'm glad in retrospect that I asked them early. I was like, “It could be two years from now, but I want to know what I'm supposed to do on day one. I'm not going to be seeing a pulmonologist on a regular basis when my baby is two, so I might as well just ask now.” I had all of the information that I needed which was wonderful, but I struggled really hard with nursing her. All of my kids had tongue ties and it's just been a difficult journey breastfeeding. Ginnie, the middle one, had colic and food allergies. I was down to seven foods that I could eat.Meagan: That's the worst. Abby: It was terrible. I was off eggs, soy, dairy, gluten, caffeine, tomatoes, and corn. Meagan: You weren't really eating anything. Abby: I really wasn't eating anything. I was losing my mind. I was pumping around the clock to try and get my supply back up. She was still not gaining weight and we just were like, “If this was working, I could maybe keep doing it,” but it wasn't working and she wasn't gaining weight, so I switched her to formula. Once I weaned, we pretty much immediately got pregnant. Very much a surprise but I feel like I need to share the beginning of this story because this is really the start of my VBAC story and I'm really going to try not to cry. I had a postpartum nurse when I was postpartum with Ginnie whom we had never met before, but she just adopted our family. She brought me Uncrustables in the postpartum room and those are the best. She was like, “Here's candy from the nurses' station.” I think you get a little extra attention when you're a pulmonary embolism mom in the ICU, so she just adopted us and became a friend to our family after the baby was born. She called me a week before Mother's Day and said, “Abby.” She was bawling. She told me that she hasn't cried in three years but this was the first time she cried. She was bawling her eyes out and said, “Abby, I just had a dream about you. I have to tell you the dream.” As a nurse, she has seen, in her time, one stillbirth and it really deeply affected her obviously. She had a dream that she went to heaven and saw her stillborn baby girl as a teenager. She was holding three of my children. Carly did not know that I had three losses because she met me after Ginnie was born. She just knew I was a miscarriage mom and in her dream, the reason she was sobbing was because she thought that meant I was going to experience more loss. She was devastated. She was like, “Oh my gosh. She's already been through so much. She just had a pulmonary embolism five months ago,” so this stillborn baby girl who was a teenager in the dream calmed her nerves and said, “No, no. These are supposed to be here but this little boy is coming down soon.”Meagan: I've got the chills. Abby: This is a true story. It's the craziest thing in the world. It's just wild to me that this is part of my story but it is. She said that he looked just like Hadley, my five-year-old, and that his name was John which is our boy name and my dad's name and my grandfather's name. That was always going to be the name. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Abby: We were like, “Okay. That's really weird.” You think that's weird. I think that's weird. It is the reason that I took a pregnancy test. We weren't trying so I wouldn't have taken one. It was the faintest little line. Truly, so, so faint but because I knew that I needed to be on Lovenox day one and because I knew from my miscarriage history, I needed to be on progesterone day one, it was a Friday so I texted my midwife and I said, “I need HCG labs and I need you to call me in progesterone and Lovenox.” My HCG that day was very, very low. I think it was a 5 and the lowest considered viable pregnancy is a 7. They want it to double or triple by 48 hours from now. I went back on Monday. I started my progesterone and Lovenox on that Friday with a very faint test and a very low HCG and it was up to 77 on Monday. It was doubling or tripling in the appropriate amount of time. I kept going back and it kept going. He is sleeping in the other room right now, so he clearly stuck. I really contribute his life honestly to Carly's dream and the fact that I never would have taken a pregnancy test. It was a Friday. I was able to be so proactive about the medicine and care that I needed. I knew when she told me the dream, I said, “I'm pregnant. This is going to be my VBAC.” I just knew it in my bones so intimately. I really don't know how to explain it. It was just a soul-knowing. I just knew. She was like, “The dream wasn't literal, Abby. I'm not saying you're pregnant right now.” I was like, “Nope. I know.” I just knew. I just knew. People always say things like that, but that had never been my experience, especially trying to conceive. You're always like, “Oh, I stubbed my toe. Is that a sign of pregnancy?” You're looking for every little thing and this time it was like, “No. I'm pregnant.” We've wanted a boy the whole time and I was like, “This is going to be my boy and this is going to be my VBAC.” I just knew. So really, on day one I started fighting like hell for my VBAC because it was after two and I knew that I was going to need to basically be a psycho about it. I think that's my biggest VBAC advice for people is that if you really want a VBAC, you have to kind of have to be a psycho about it because no one wants you to have a VBAC more than you want to have a VBAC. You need to advocate for yourself. I think a lot of people can take a sort of, “If it happens, it happens” attitude and that is fine if that is how you truly feel about it. If it happens, it happens but if you really, really, really want a VBAC, you have to really, really, really fight for your VBAC no matter how supportive your providers are, no matter how wonderful your doula is, it's only you who is going to get you that birth. You're the one who has to push the baby out. You're the one who has to do all of the work even if there are people helping you. And I did day one. We would like a large family, so our position from the beginning of the pregnancy was, “Well, if this baby is a C-section, then are probably done.” I really don't want to put myself through more than three C-sections. The other two were so deeply traumatic for everyone in our family. I can't imagine recovering from a C-section with three or four children. We are going to be done. So that really lit a fire under me to fight for it even more. Even if we do decide now to be done, I didn't want surgery to be what decided the size of my family. That was something I felt really strongly about. I started chiropractic on day one. I started doing all of the things. I took obviously all of my medicines and I just took really good care of myself and my body. I think bodywork played a huge part in my pregnancy this time around. We found out at 20 weeks at my anatomy scan that the baby was breech. I'd never had a breech baby. All of my babies were OP before, so I was like, “Okay. Surely this is 20 weeks. He's obviously going to flip at some point.” He really didn't. He was breech until 35, so I went to a Webster chiro twice a week. I did moxibustion. I did all of the Spinning Babies. I hung upside down off my couch 700 times a minute and did everything you could possibly do, handstands in the pool to flip a breech baby. Really, nothing was working. I went to a bodyworker who was like, I don't really even know how to explain what he does, it's something between chiropractic and massage therapy, but he tried to manually move the baby for me. It never worked. Nothing happened. They told me I couldn't have an ECV because I was a VBAC after two and my last birth was so recent and I had an anterior placenta. Meagan: All of the cards were stacked against you. Abby: So many cards. I basically was like, “I have this deadline. If I made it to 39, they're going to schedule me if he doesn't flip by then.” It was really dark honestly because I had that deep knowledge the whole time that this was going to be my VBAC. I really started to doubt that and say, “I've had such shit luck before now.” Sorry if I'm not allowed to cuss on the podcast. Meagan: You're just fine. Abby: Maybe my terrible luck is going to continue and it wasn't a true feeling, it was just a desire. He finally flipped after a lot of tears and a lot of, “I think I'm going to have to have a C-section.” I went to birth trauma therapy for the whole time. We talked a lot about, “Okay, well what happens if you do have to have a C-section? How are you going to be okay with it if that is the outcome?” He eventually flipped which, praise God, was amazing but the minute he flipped, he was LOA. I have never had a baby in a proper birth position. That is intense, girlfriend. He was down low doing what he was supposed to be doing and I was like, “Ow. This is a lot of pressure all of the time.” It was just constant pressure. It felt like a lot of contractions. They were obviously prodromal, but with my experience with Hadley, I just ignored them the whole time. I was like, “La, la, la, la, la. Nothing is happening.” He flipped at 35.5, maybe 36. The contractions really picked up right away. I never had a cervical check, so I don't know this but I have a feeling that I was walking around at a 3 or a 4 for a while. I was having very regular contractions, not necessarily timeable, but they were real for sure and doing something for sure. His position was doing something also. He was putting pressure down low and dilating me in my opinion. At about, I guess it was 38, everyone kept saying, my doula kept saying, “I think you're going to go early. I really think you're not going to make it.” I was like, “I'm going to go 42. Nobody is going to stop me. I will do whatever I need to do.” Meagan: Mentally prepared. Abby: I will have a 42-hour labor, okay? I will have a 42-hour labor if I need to have a 42-hour labor. I will do all of the things. They were all like, “No. You're not going to make it.” But then, when you keep not having the baby, you're like, “This is making me crazy.” Prodromal labor is insane. It's such a mental game. It's just like, “Is this it? Is this it? Is this it?” especially because I'd never gone into labor naturally before. But when it was it, I knew. There's really no denying it. I went to the chiropractor in the afternoon. I'm so excited. I'm about to start telling my VBAC story. Sorry I'm long-winded, but this right here is truly what I've been dreaming of for a really long time, so thank you for giving me this space to share my story. Meagan: Yes. I love it.Abby: I went to the chiropractor on a Monday at 4:00 and I said, “I think I'm going to go early. I've been having all of these contractions.” I had one while I was standing there talking to her. She actually encouraged me to get a membrane sweep. I denied them the whole time with all of my midwives. I was just like, “No, no, no. I'm not doing that.” She was like, “Hey, I went to 42 and I wish I had started the process a little earlier.” It made me doubt all of the prodromal labor I had been having because I was like, “Why do you think I need a membrane sweep? I'm obviously having a baby in the next five days.”Meagan: Yeah. You're like, “My body's working.” Abby: Exactly. That's what I thought. I was like, “I don't know about that.” But I had a contraction while I was standing there talking to her, checking out, and paying. She said, “Are you having a contraction right now?” I was like, “Yeah. This is just what it's been like lately.” I went home and was annoyed by the contractions. I drank a Body Armour with some electrolytes and took a bath because that usually slows the prodromal down. I had five contractions in the bath. I was like, “Hmm.” So I texted my doula and was like, “Usually when I take a bath, it stops the contractions. Surely this means that something is happening.”I didn't mention that for the last two weeks once he flipped his head down, I started bleeding pretty regularly. I'm on blood thinners, so I could get a papercut and it would be like the red sea, so it was not all that concerning. My doctors were like, “Well, it's not your uterus. The baby is okay. You would be in pain if you had a rupture. Everything seems okay.” Meagan: Yeah. Abby: My poor doula, I texted her a lot of pictures being like, “Is this bloody show? Is this bloody show? Do you think that this is bloody show?” But finally, on the night that I took a bath and had contractions in the bath, she said, “That looks like blood show.” I was like, “All right. Okay. Now we're cooking with gas. Something is happening.” I got out of the bath and was very annoyed. We had a long day. We have two other kids and my husband and I were both just so tired and wanted to go to bed. He said, “Can I make you some dinner?” I don't think I had eaten anything. He said, “I have a couple of steaks. Can I make you some steaks?” I was like, “That sounds awesome.” I was like, “I'm just going to sit in bed. I'm going to watch New Girl and ignore these contractions and eat some steak.” I attempted to do that, but the contractions were starting to pick up and I couldn't eat. I had to eat in between contractions and chew and swallow. I was not enjoying the steak at all. I lay down and I felt a pop. I had experienced my water breaking with Ginnie and I was like, “That was my water.” I texted my doula and said, “I think my water just broke.” She had been fielding all of these texts from me for the last two weeks about the blood and contractions and blah, blah, blah so it's not that she didn't believe me, but she was just like, “Okay, so tell me what makes you think that your water just broke.” I said, “Well, I didn't pee.” She was like, “Okay.” I got up out of bed. My husband had just put down a piddle pad underneath the sheets because he was like, “You know, just in case. You're having all of these contractions.” I didn't want to totally ruin the mattress, so I hopped up out of bed really quickly because I wanted to go back to sleep after my water had broken. I was like, “Even if there's a piddle pad, I don't want the sheets to be wet because I want to sleep in them.” It was a flood. It was very much my water. I was like, “Okay. Nope. That's okay. Things are happening.” And things really did start to happen so, so quickly. You know, as a doula, you have all of these numbers in your head of, “Okay, so there's 5-1-1 and you call the doula when it's 5-1-1 and then you go to the hospital when it's 4-1-1 and your contractions are a minute long and not slowing down in intensity.” That was very much not my experience. It was 0 to 60. I think the prodromal that I had been having just ramped my body right up and so there was no real labor. Meagan: That's the thing. Prodromal labor can do that because your body has been working. We call it prodromal labor but it's not like your body wasn't just doing anything. Abby: It did. It felt like it was doing nothing but it clearly was doing work. Meagan: It was. Yes. So listeners, if you have prodromal labor, seriously, just be on the lookout. Sometimes when labor does start and you've had a history of prodromal labor, it can start right out of the gate. Abby: It was aggressive. Meagan: Yes. Abby: So basically, immediately my contractions were two minutes apart and at first, they were 40 seconds. My doula was like, “You know, they can start out intense and maybe taper off a little bit.” That is not the direction that it went. They started ramping up in intensity. I watched about four minutes of New Girl and was like, “That's it.” And we were so tired. I just kept saying, “I want to do this tomorrow. I really just want it to wait.” With my middle child, I had been able to go to sleep after my water broke. I slept all night in my own bed and it just ramped up intensely so quickly. I hadn't washed my hair when I took a bath. It was just a soaky kind of bath, so I was like, “I'm going to go take a shower.” I wanted to wash my hair in the shower. I felt like then my doula could braid it and it would look cute in the morning and I'll just have clean hair. If I ended up with a C-section, I wouldn't be able to wash my hair for five days, so I might as well just do it now. My contractions picked up in the shower and I remember getting back onto my bed and being like, “I don't know how I'm going to get dressed.” Meagan: So intense. Abby: So intense. I just was expecting, even with the second birth, the contractions with the Pit were scheduled essentially. They were intense, but they were scheduled, so you get a break in between them. You get to, “Okay. Let me take a deep breath. Let me reassess.” There was no time for reassessing. Honestly, it was really scary. I have to be honest and say that I've had a lot of people say, “I'm so glad you got your dream VBAC.” I was like, “I don't think I would use those words.” I got a VBAC and I'm so glad that I did, but it was really, really scary because it was just so intense so quickly. Part of the birth plan was to stay at home for as long as possible. You don't want to go too soon and have them tell you that you're 2 centimeters and all of a sudden, you're stuck at a hospital, especially with your water broken. I just remember struggling to get dressed and telling my husband, “I think we need to go to the hospital.” He was like, “It's literally my job to tell her not to go to the hospital. I have one job and it's to not let her go there.” Meagan: It's to say no. Abby: I'm not supposed to do that. These are very specific instructions. So he called my doula and was like, “She's begging for you. She's really starting to moan through them and not be able to get sentences out.” She said, “Let me listen to her.” He put me on speaker and she said, “I'm going to meet you at the hospital. I think it's time to go.” I was like, “Thank God someone is letting me go to the hospital so I could get an epidural.” I was ready for this show to be over. I was like, “If I get an epidural, they'll let me take a nap.” All I wanted was to go back to sleep. I just wanted to go back to sleep. We got in the car. My friend was coming to keep our children and just sleep on our couch while we were going to the hospital and we were about to leave before she even got here. They were well asleep. It was 10:00 at night, but we were like, “We have to just leave the front door open for you.” She ended up making it. She saw me in the front yard and she was like, “Brian, do you think she's in transition right now?” He was like, “I don't know but this is really intense.” The car ride was horrible. We only live 9 minutes from the hospital, but it was just so intense, and just no breaks. It was scary and so painful. I follow pain-free birth on Instagram and they are liars. It is not pain-free. I just don't want anyone to listen to this podcast and be like, “Pain-free is what I experienced” because it is not. It is excruciating. You always think you are a badass until you're not. I was like, “No. Get me an epidural right now. I am dying. I will do anything. Just send me the anesthesiologist right now.” So by the time we made it to the hospital 9 minutes later, I was screaming. Screaming like in the movies and we always joke as my husband and I are now birthy people, I've transformed him to the dark side. Meagan: I love it so much. It all started with the Business of Being Born. Abby: Exactly. Meagan: Second date. Abby: Oh, literally. We always make fun of Hollywood movies where this woman's water breaks and she is screaming in the hospital 20 minutes later and that is exactly what happened to me. It was so instant. My water broke at 8:30. We called my doula at 9:30 and she said, “Holy crap. Go to the hospital.” We got to the hospital. Oh, I wish I had the exact timeline. I might have to look. We got to the hospital and I was screaming bloody murder getting out of the car. I don't even know how I walked out of the car to get to where I needed to be. The woman at the front desk heard me screaming and ran to get a wheelchair for me and run me up to the OB floor because this poor woman was like, “We are not having a baby in the lobby today.” Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure. Abby: She truly was like, “Go. This is my job. I'm going.” She ran me up to the OB floor and my doula apparently pulled in right behind us. She was on the floor but heard me screaming through the elevator from the 8th floor. I was screaming Meagan. It was a lot. I feel like I owe a lot of people some cookies at the hospital. My midwife said that I came in hot. Meagan: You came in hot. Abby: I really did. They were running me down the hall and this poor, I will never forget, this poor girl at the triage desk was very obviously new and she asked me if I could fill out paperwork. I was like, “Do I look like I could fill out paperwork right now?” I was sideways in the wheelchair with my leg up yelling at everyone. I just was like, “No. I will not be filling out paperwork right now.” They took me to triage which honestly was BS. I was like, “I'm obviously having a baby. Why do I need to go to triage?” But they saw me right away which was very helpful. I saw a midwife I had never met before which made me nervous because as a VBAC mom, you're like, “I want to know that it's the right people.” Meagan: Right. Abby: But around the corner comes– they tried to get an IV in my arm. I was flailing. There was just no way that that was going to happen which was awesome. I didn't want an IV anyway. But around the corner comes a student midwife who has been with me through my whole pregnancy. She shadowed a bunch of different midwives and I saw her several times. We actually had a really wonderful conversation. I guess one of the times the baby was breech at the doctor and I told her about my birth trauma and how difficult it was for me and all of the reasons we didn't want another C-section and she just gave me the most trauma-informed care. She just sat and listened to me well beyond the time of the appointment. She made friends with my five-year-old during the appointments. She was just such a light.The midwife came in and she said, “Hi, I'm Barb and I have a student with me today.” I had literally just been screaming at everyone in the room and I said, “Is it Cara?” and it was her. I gave her a big hug. She was like, “It's me!” and it was the most joyful moment of a really, really intense birth. It was 3 and a half hours from start to finish. It was so, so fast. It was a very intense, honestly scary time but seeing Cara was just like, “Okay. You are a safe person for me right now.” It felt like, “I know that you know how badly I want this and I know that you are going to do everything in your power to help me get it and why this is important to our family.” It was just like, “Okay.”But I still didn't calm down. I was not calm. None of it was a calm experience at all. There was just no time to emotionally switch from sitting in my bed watching New Girl to I'm at a hospital having a baby. It was just so quick that I couldn't wrap my head around the change in my life situation. They checked me and it was Cara who checked me, the student midwife. She said, “Well, you're an 8.5.” I was like, “Okay.” My husband was like, “What? I was not supposed to come to the hospital,” and then he was like, “Oh my gosh. Thank God I came to the hospital. I'm so glad I'm not delivering a baby on our toilet right now.” That was not what he wanted at all. She said, “You can start pushing though.” No one ever told me that I was 10 which I thought was interesting. She basically said, “If you're feeling pushy, you can push.” I was like, “I just want this baby out of me because I want this to be over. I'm very much done with this process.” So they took me to an L&D room and tried to switch me from a triage bed to the regular bed and I truly was in so much pain with no breaks in the contractions that I was like, “No. I can't even get on the bed.” They were like, “Trust me. You don't want to be on the triage bed to deliver a baby. Try to get over there.” Every movement that I made felt so challenging and so painful. They asked if I wanted to– I went on my hands and knees and they were like, “Is that comfortable?” I was like, “Do I look comfortable?” It was just the most erroneous question. I was like, “What part of me screaming makes you think that anything about this is comfortable right now?” Of course, it was too late to get an epidural, so when they tell me that it was basically time to push, I was like, “I don't want that. I just want to take a nap. I just want an epidural.” When she said 8, I was like, “Oh no. I have to do this. I have to be here and I have to do this.” Obviously, in retrospect, I'm very glad that it was too late and that I did it, but it was truly just so, so intense. Again, just how quickly it happened just did not allow time for me to even understand what was happening. But I started pushing when we got in L&D and the midwife who was very old school, I'm not going to guess her age but she's older, got in my face. I'm an Alabama football fan, so I kept saying that I needed someone to Nick Saban me in labor. I needed, “All right, Abby. Here's the deal. See you at the finish line.” I had never met her before. She totally got in my face and Nick Saban'd me. She said, “Abby.” I said, “I just want the baby out. I just want this to be over. I just want to get the baby out.” She was like, “We can get the baby out. You can get the baby out, but you have to stop screaming. You're letting all of your power out of the top of your body by screaming. You have to channel that. Take a deep breath and push down.” I just felt totally incapable of that, but I was again, so over it that I just was like, “Okay. I guess I'm just going to do whatever this random lady says.” I started pushing and less than 30 minutes later, my son was born. I was at the hospital for 48 minutes before he was born. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Abby: Truly like a movie. It was just the fastest thing I've ever experienced. It was really scary and apparently, it was also really scary for him because he came out not breathing. Meagan: Fast transition. Abby: Yes. It was so fast. Everything was so fast. It's officially precipitous labor, the timeframe that I experienced. He was just totally unresponsive. My doula said that she saw his chest rising and falling when they took him away, but you want the pull the baby up on your chest experience. I was so shocked when I pushed him out. Pushing was so hard. It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and they told me that I could see his head. I touched his head and I was like, “Oh my gosh, there is a baby coming out of my vagina. I can't believe that this is happening.” But the endorphins that you sort of expect to follow didn't really happen because we were panicking. My husband and I were like, bawling and praying out loud and just were so nervous that the baby was not going to be okay. My doula said that it was less than three minutes, but of course, it felt like an eternity. It was terrible. There were eight people around him on the table and oxygen. It was just a very medical experience. Again, I've had a lot of weird birth things and when I first envisioned being a mom, I envisioned a home birth really. All of my births have had reasons that they needed to be at a hospital. With Ginnie, praise the Lord that I was on an operating table when I threw a pulmonary embolism and that there was a cardiac anesthesiologist that knew. Honestly, had I had a vaginal birth with Ginnie, that pulmonary embolism would have flowed up into my lungs walking around my culdesac on a Tuesday and I wouldn't be here. That's just not the kind of thing that you can come back from. They are literally called the silent killer for that reason. It's hard to admit that the way that I wanted things to happen was not the way that they happened, but I am so thankful for all of the medical people and all of the things that happened the way they happened because my children are safe and I'm safe. That doesn't make things any less traumatizing if you've experienced trauma, but it's just really overwhelming to think about how things could have happened had I been more stubborn or insistent on a home birth this time or whatever. So I think my biggest shift obviously once the baby was okay and everything, I had a second-degree tear which was no big deal. She stitched me up. That took forever. I was kind of over it by that point. By the time she was done and they had handed him to me and everything was fine, people had cleared out of the room, I had to go to the bathroom. I had so much water during labor. I have a big Stanley cup and I just kept asking my husband to give me water in between every single contraction. I was like, “Water, water, water.” It was the only thing I said for an hour. I was like, “I really have to go to the bathroom” and the nurse just looked at me and was like, “Okay. It's over there.” I was like, “I can go to the bathroom? I can just stand up and go to the bathroom?” And I did. She was like, “I can help you.” She wasn't trying to be rude or anything. She was like, “Okay, yeah. We can totally go.” I was like, “No, I think I can go to the bathroom.” Totally unmedicated. I had no IVs. The continuous fetal monitoring did happen, but it was someone just holding. They didn't even have time to put anything on me. They just held it down at the bottom of my belly. I was pretty unencumbered and by the time I was done, I could just get up and go to the bathroom. I took a shower in the postpartum room the next day and everything was just like night and day. I have already taken walks with my family. I took the baby out of the house yesterday by myself. I carried his car seat by myself. The recovery is, my birth was not a dream birth. It was terrifying and I'm glad it's over. I'm glad I did it. It's amazing and empowering, so don't hear me saying that it wasn't amazing, but the postpartum experience is what has solidified for me that it was worth every second because for three and a half intense hours, I don't have to have four-plus really terrible weeks trying to recover from a major abdominal surgery, so it was worth every very, very intense second. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Abby: I know, I'm sorry. Meagan: Well congratulations. Abby: Thank you. It's a very long story. Meagan: Congratulations. It's okay. I love it. I love it so much. I appreciate your sharing. I could just feel the intensity. Abby: Oh, it was intense. Meagan: I'm sure for everybody it was just like, “Ahh!” So much was happening and those precipitous births, just recently recording, I think it was last week's episode was accidentally at home. Sometimes there are these babies that just come and they are ready to go. I really appreciate you sharing your story. Abby: I'm so glad. I'm so glad. It was really such a joy and overwhelming to be here. Honestly, thank you. I feel like what you do is just such a service to women. When you have a C-section, you might think that your body is incapable or not able to do what you thought it might be able to do and it's really disempowering to feel that way. So to hear these stories is such a gift. I just ate them up like candy. I listened to The VBAC Link on the day that I went into labor and I was going on a walk before I went to the chiropractor. It just gave me the power to say, “I think I really can do this.” And I did. So thank you for what you do. Meagan: And now, you're one of those stories. Abby: I'm one of those stories.Meagan: Before we go, I just wanted to share with everybody if you guys want to go find Abby on social media, again, she's not actively doula-ing right now, but I can see it in the future. Abby: Definitely. Meagan: She's at @AbbyKraftMac which I absolutely love.Abby: Yes. Kraft with a K. Meagan: Yep. Kraft with a K or abbykraftmac.com. We'll make sure to be tagging you today on Instagram and all of the things. So thank you again so much for being here. Abby: Thank you, friend. I'm so thankful. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all thing