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Re-releasing a DAT listener favorite! Chris Sands and Brent Saunier are on the podcast to talk about the hottest topics in the dental accounting world. Founding partners of Pro-Fi 20/20, these dental CPAs chat with Kiera about how to reduce overhead and expand the number of patients coming in, expense metrics from the hundreds of offices Pro-Fi works with, a tax rule you NEED to live by, what to stay away from financially with your business, and a ton more. Pro-Fi 20/20 is an accounting business that the Dental A-Team recommend. This episode is a goldmine of information from two fellows who know what they're talking about — especially with regard to the dental industry. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today we are bringing you something so special. I am so excited because this is one of our most popular episodes from the archives. Whether you're hearing this for the first time or catching it again, I am so excited because it's jam packed with a ton of takeaways that you can start using right now in your practice. We have released thousands, literally thousands of episodes. And I wanted to start bringing a few of these amazing episodes back for you. So I hope you enjoy. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time.   on the Dental A Team podcast.   speaker-0 (00:31) today I wanted to bring on two special guests. These are actually CPA in the CPA world. Believe it or not, Dental A Team actually consults this company. So we definitely love them. They went a step above most CPA companies and they really wanted to get to know the ins and outs of the dental world. So I'm super jazzed to bring them on and to just have them dive into some of the hot topics in the accounting world. ⁓ two people that I trust and recommend heavily. ⁓ I   They are one of my top three CPA firms that I refer and recommend constantly. So I'm excited to welcome Chris and Brent from Pro-Fi. How are you gentlemen today?   speaker-1 (01:06) Awesome, Kiera. Thanks so much for having us. We're excited to be with you.   speaker-0 (01:10) Yeah, absolutely. Brent, how are you doing today?   speaker-2 (01:12) I am doing great. I appreciate the invite. I'm looking forward to this 30 minutes with you.   speaker-0 (01:17) Yeah, absolutely. Well, who knows? We'll see how long this ends up going, guys. Brent, can't put a time on us. It could be dangerous zone.   speaker-1 (01:24) You're lucky he said he's doing great because we're in the heat of extended tax season, so he's kind of in the trenches. Lucky he's in a good mood.   speaker-0 (01:32) I know Tiffany has been trying to get back out to you guys to see you and Beth you heard this awesome rock star in the company She keeps saying like tiff. It's like extended tax time or it's this or it's that deadline I'm like, my gosh, you guys just have I think you're secretly adrenaline junkies of CPAs even though you don't come across that way But I think you love it cuz tax season I feel is just like adrenaline rush like trying to get to the deadline. I just can't imagine that stress like   Every quarter every year you just hit it. So props to you guys. That's not my world but super jazz to have you guys on here. ⁓ so Chris let's dive in I know there's some things so we're gonna kind of hit on overhead we're gonna talk about some taxing some Some things to be aware of i'm just so excited because this is a world I don't know and I do purposely bring really really talented and educated cpas and financial advisors onto the podcast because I'm we have a three-fold approach in our company. It's focusing on   Money and finances making sure your business is profitable you as a person and as an individual and then systems and teams top to bottom So I am big I think as a business owner. I wasn't profitable when I first started. I didn't know how to look at my numbers I didn't even know what the heck over influence. I was like googling how to figure it out So i'm just jazzing you guys are here. So Chris kind of take us away I know you had some great topics for today and i'm excited to just   Rift a little bit with you, dive into these things, things that are really tangible for our practices now, especially where you guys work with hundreds of offices across the nation. Lots of good data to be pulling out for our practices listening.   speaker-1 (03:04) Sure, well, ⁓ Kiera, I think that there's a lot of discussion around, does the DSO world seem to do a better job with overhead than the private practice world? I think a lot of private practice doctors are wondering that, they're frustrated or how do I get my overhead down? And a lot of times, I think when you focus on expenses, you tend to attract expenses. And in our world of accounting, I will often tell doctors that, ⁓   Accounting cannot make you money, it cannot generate revenue. The expenses part is the easy part for us that we can work on trying to reduce some things, but you either have a revenue problem or an expense problem. And in most cases it's actually, you creating enough revenue on your fixed expenses? And most of dentistry doesn't understand how simple that is to scale the dental business model when you look at it from a high level.   You scale a business and reduce overhead with doctor production. Okay. And so that means you need enough patients to see the practice that I worked in from my experience was 40 to 60 new patients a month per doctor, per full-time doctor. And it means you need to be reinvesting enough into marketing. And I'll talk about that, that expense or reinvestment of marketing in a minute to get those new patients. And you need to be.   monitoring the phones that get answered properly and there's conversion rate of those inbound calls to appointments scheduled. And then the real job is case acceptance. Okay, and so here I am in an accounting firm coming on your podcast and I bet you didn't think I was gonna like be talking about case acceptance.   speaker-0 (04:46) was like, wonder we didn't talk about all your time. I'm just kidding.   speaker-1 (04:49) So, know, dentistry is really the product that's being delivered. And if you're ethically diagnosing the need and creating the treatment plan, your job is to help the patient understand the urgency and necessity of fixing the problem and paying you to do that work. So your job isn't really the dentistry itself, it's case acceptance.   And your first task is to become great at case acceptance yourself as a practicing clinician. But then the real task as the owner is to be able to teach other doctors to become good at it. So I think, you know, the only the only variable overhead that the dental business model has is paying doctors a percentage of the dental collections that they create. And then you have labs and you have supplies.   associated with the dentistry that's delivered. those expenses are variable. They track with the amount of dentistry that gets done. Everything else is fixed overhead when you really think about it. Marketing is fixed and it only changes based on your choosing. Your team expenses are fixed and they only change when you hire or fire. Your rent and facility costs are fixed. Your equipment costs are fixed and only changed by your choosing. And the various required admin costs, they're all pretty much fixed. They only change by your choosing.   So if you can create more doctor generated collections with the same team and fixed expenses, your profit margin goes up, your percentage overhead, your percentage overhead to collections ratio goes down. Okay. And so I guess we see most private practice or single, should certainly say single location, solo doctor practices. We see them failing at this because they choose not to reinvest enough.   back into the business, into that marketing for new patients. They're not monitoring the phones. They're not training their team. They're not training their doctors on case acceptance. And they're too closely focused on just the clinical delivery of the dentistry. Don't get me wrong, that's required, but that's not what makes you successful or financially successful. So I can give you ⁓ some generic ranges for expenses, but the real thing is that   You know, the real way to scale a business is to generate more revenue on the same overhead. That's kind of the definition.   speaker-0 (07:20) And isn't that basically then probably the DSO model because they have lower fixed costs per se. They've figured out how to have centralized billing, centralized call center, centralized. So many things centralized that they don't need all these different things. So solo practices, if I'm understanding correctly, they've got all the costs associated, but they only have X number of revenue where when you start to add in those multiples of practices,   That's where your fixed costs, it's going, yes, of course your fixed costs will increase a bit, but I mean, I do know our fixed costs did not go up that much more when I added our second practice to it because I already have my base of fixed costs there and then we're just able to add more revenue. Is that kind of what you're saying? Am I understanding?   speaker-1 (08:01) Yeah,   I mean, you know, that, part about centralizing is, know, when you, when you do have multiple locations, I would say three or more, then you can consolidate the amount of team that's working the front desk into one location. Instead of needing three to five team members at the front desk in every office, you may only need three to five team members for all three offices. You're having one of the best things by the way, as kind of an aside, one of the best things that private practices can do as they grow is to get those phones off the front desk. You know, let.   speaker-0 (08:20) Right, right.   I agree.   speaker-1 (08:30) You know, like there needs to be, that needs to be in a totally separate admin space. But, ⁓ you know, I get asked that question a lot. Like my overhead is 65 % and how can I afford to hire another associate doctor and pay them 30 or 35 %? Well, you know, that doctor is going to create new collections. That's the point. It's not to give them your patients. It's to grow the number of patients coming in that, that you as one doctor maybe are stressed.   and you hire the next doctor and you've got to continue to invest in the marketing to keep your job as the owner is keep the chairs full, right? As long as the chairs are full, if that associate doctor is ethically diagnosing like you are, if you guys have a ⁓ clinical standard of care in your practice, if you guys talk about how you treatment plan and your treatment planning the same way, that's all required. But here's the real test. You know, how do they connect with people? How do they, how do they,   establish a relationship, establish trust and get them to move forward with that treatment. So I think dentists hate to use this word in dentistry, but the job is kind of sales. You know, if you believe in your product of dentistry to solve this need and like, again, if you diagnose decay and they don't get rid of it, you failed. I could go on a tangent on that, but the new doctor will bring new collections and you might have to hire at most, you know, an additional   speaker-0 (09:46) Yeah.   speaker-1 (09:55) Assistant or two and that would be a new fixed overhead. You would increase your fixed over it slightly But other than that the doctor covers all their costs with their their percentage pay the labs that are associated with it that the supplies are associated with it and You should net somewhere in the ballpark of 40 to 50 percent on the new collections they create and that that just adds to your profit Because all the other fixed overhead stays the same   speaker-0 (10:19) So I think there's a few things on there of like, I just, think it's a matter of realizing a lot of people bring on associates though, because they're tired, they want more free time. They don't want to be working as much. And I think it's important to clarify that if that's your model, that's totally fine. Everybody knows on the deadline team, I am not somebody who judges. I think everybody has their own personal path.   And so whatever jives with you and resonates with you. So if you're wanting to bring on an associate to have more free time, to not have to produce as much, fantastic, but realize that that overhead might not trickle down because now you're kind of replacing your cost with an associate that you're paying. And some doctors I know don't take as much pay as they would pay an associate per se, which to me, I think is a somewhat failed model. I'm really big on prepping and preparing for that associate, paying yourself as if you were an associate. So you know, these costs before you bring on an associate.   ⁓ but I really think it's important to note that because like you're saying that overhead will go down as long as the doctors are producing. And as long you're able to bring on that other doctor and have them produce, cause they should cover themselves. I definitely agree with that. ⁓ also I'm sure people are saying, yeah, but Chris, like in order to bring on another associate, I'm going to have to build out ops. That's a huge cost and expense. So I am curious, what have you guys found in Brent? You might have some answers to this Chris, you might. ⁓ but if an office is having to say, build out two more ops.   in their practice to be able to bring on an associate, how long does it usually take when you're doing build outs for that cost to be recouped and start being more profitable? Because oftentimes I do think that that gets into the problem with a lot of doctors is they're constantly building more to bring on these other doctors. So they're always adding more and more expenses. Like when do they ever break even? So what have you guys seen with build outs and different things like that of that break even point? How long should they plan for it to not be as profitable?   speaker-1 (12:09) Okay, I'm gonna give you a lot of answers on this. So number one, we use a metric called revenue per chair. So, you know, every, you   speaker-0 (12:17) What   do recommend? What do you guys recommend per chair?   speaker-1 (12:19) So yeah, everyone has a space and you have only a fixed number of spaces or operatories you can have in it. And there's only a fixed amount of time and days and hours and a number of doctors that you have. And revenue per chair capacity, we see a range between 25,000 to 40,000 per chair per month. And it does not matter when you do this. This is just, take collections and divide it by the number of chairs you have. ⁓   This does not matter how many chairs are for hygiene or how many chairs are for dentistry. That's your choice. Actually, you know, there are models where every chair can do everything and the patient never, but the 25 to 40,000 at 35,000 of revenue per chair, you're running fairly efficiently and you're going to need to be planning to expand. You're going to start to run out of space. So that's our metric first and foremost. And so if somebody tells us, well,   speaker-0 (12:53) Sure.   speaker-1 (13:09) I've got four chairs right now, but I have space for seven. I haven't built out the other three. I tell them, you don't need to build out the other three until you're approaching that $35,000 a month of revenue per chair. Question you asked, how much does it cost and when do you recoup that? So in my experience, typically it's around $25,000 per ⁓ operatory to equip it, assuming it's already plumbed. ⁓   after you just take that number and say, so let's say you were equipping a few operatories, so $50,000, you ⁓ essentially, your cost of the doctor plus the lab and supplies should max out at 50%. Okay, now they have to be producing. So until you get them, they've produced over $100,000. All right, let me do it per chair.   They need to do over $50,000 per chair for you to get your costs back. After that, you're in the money.   speaker-0 (14:09) which I think is also smart because I don't know. think dentists kind of err on two different sides. Sometimes they're too slow to actually build out. They are so cost conscious and so concerned about that build up, about the cost of the chair, about all the other things that they're missing, that that one chair is going to generate several thousands of dollars of revenue. I've had a few doctors where I'll say, sure, no problem. We'll do a deal. I will happily pay for that one chair and you pay me all.   the revenue that comes through from that chair for the next three months. That's all I ask is three months. and I know I'm going to come out way ahead of you because it will generate and it will produce, especially in high producing practices. So I think so often people are just so scared to do those build-outs because they see the cost or they do the flip side where they believe like, if we build it, they will come and they're overly aggressive and they don't have necessarily the patient base or the doctors in play to be able to accommodate that. So   I love, I need to agree. It's either cut costs or increase your revenue. Like that's really overhead.   speaker-1 (15:12) One more way to think about it is, you know, if they have patients that are having to wait so many weeks or months to schedule out to come in. if you can calculate your collections divided by the number of patients seen for any given time, for year to date or for a full year, you can get your average revenue per patient. Okay. And if you know your average revenue per patient, you know how many either new patients or how many more patients you need to fill that chair to cover the cost.   Okay. So if your average revenue per patient was, you know, $1,500 per patient, um, and the cost of that chair is 25,000, just take 25,000 divided by 1500. And that'll tell you how many patients have to be seen in that chair before you pay for that chair. Sure. You're to be in the money, you know, it's in terms of the construction. That's another basically upfront, one time fixed costs that you're going to cover. And then all the future revenue that it's going to generate. So.   Maybe if you like, think before we end this topic on overhead, I'll give you kind some of our expense metric. ⁓   speaker-0 (16:18) Sure, yeah, absolutely.   Well, hang on, before you go into expense metrics, I want to bring up one piece that I think often gets missed, because you're saying like we're in the money. But I also want to bring up something that I really love to point out, and that is return on emotion. Some people don't want to bring on an associate. Yes, like as a business model, you can be more financially successful with an associate. Yes, you can, having more chairs, more build out, more practices. ⁓ But I also want to point out there is a return on emotion. There are sometimes   Bigger headaches, they're also sometimes less headaches with bigger organizations. I personally love to consult larger practices. The pettiness, the cattiness, the smaller drama is way less in larger practices or multiple locations. So like that drastically drops down. They figured it out. They're dialed into systems. But at the same time, I think it's important for people to assess that return on emotion. You might have a dreamy life. You might be doing exactly what you want and sure you could produce more.   But if you're off work at say two or three o'clock every day and you work two or three days a week and you're shelling and seven fifty to a million in profit, not a bad lifestyle. So I think it's also important to assess like what you ultimately want and what your return on emotion is before just saying like, I'm going to build because this is the way to do it. I think if you're looking at your practices as a business model, which I personally think a lot of us should look at it that way, ⁓ just to see what you what you ultimately want, what's your end game. And that's also where I love financial advisors of   Like what is your total term? Like where do you want to get? Does it make sense to grow? Does it make sense to stay where I'm at? ⁓ I think oftentimes we, we forget that return on emotion and how that is. We always think of like return on investment, but what does that return on emotion too? So just want to put a plug of like, I think everyone's on their own path, their own journey. Definitely agree. There are lots of ways that you can be insanely profitable and having multiple practices is a great, great, great business play. And you're able to help more practices. I'm all in favor.   You're gonna have multiple locations. Make sure you're doing awesome dentistry because sure, it can be very lucrative. Just be ethical because I think that plays out long-term. So Chris, with that, what are some of the metrics you guys look at? Because I agree, I love to hear people's metrics. I think we're pretty closely aligned with you guys on metrics, which is another reason I really love working with you guys and your clients.   speaker-1 (18:32) So I think if you ⁓ were to survey the Academy of dental CPAs and all of their, what you see them put out statistically, they're gonna tell you the metric of one to 2 % for marketing. When you go and you immerse yourself in the DSO world and their conferences and get to know what they're doing, you're gonna see more of an average of six to 8 % reinvestment into marketing. DSOs have a harder time with retention. They have more patients going out the back door. Private practices.   degraded retention, but they don't often invite enough people to the party. So we don't go by the one to 2 % number. think that's an area where people try to, they're trying to keep costs down. You know, your business is the greatest asset that you own that provides the greatest return and you have the most control over. So you should be reinvesting in it more than you reinvest in the stock market or anything else. So our metric for marketing is three to 8%. Private practices, like to see at least three to five.   I mean, excuse me, in GP practices, in specialty practices, especially like orthodontics, needs to be on the higher end. Team expenses between 20 to 30%. We certainly try to keep that under 30%. Team expense does not include doctors. Okay. So that's all of your, all of your, uh, your, your entire team, including a hygienist as well, but not doctors, uh, dental supplies somewhere five to nine, five to 10 % labs.   speaker-0 (19:36) Yes, absolutely.   speaker-1 (19:58) four to 7%. So again, those dental supplies and labs really should not be greater than roughly 15 % total. Rent and facilities, five to 9%. What does that mean? So if you have a high percentage in your rent and facility costs, if your rent facility is let's say nine, 10, 11%, that means you're probably not maximizing the space and getting the collections that is possible there. Again, using that revenue per chair metric.   When you're on the lower end, if you have 4 to 5 % rent of facility, means you're running very efficiently. You're probably going to be running out of space and need to expand or potentially relocate or get another location. And then there's general administrative costs somewhere in the range of 4 to 10%, depending on the practice type and what additional folks they have.   speaker-0 (20:48) Cool.   speaker-1 (20:50) That's it on everything.   speaker-0 (20:51) No, I love it so much because I think so often people don't look at their P &Ls and they don't even know what they should be targeting for. It's just like, well, do I have money left over or do I not? And then I don't know. like all of that combined should equal about 50 % there. Is that correct? Those are 50 % and then doctor pays 30 % to give a 20 % profit margin. And then you subtract debt services from that. that kind of your guys' model? That's what I've heard. It's what I typically recommend.   speaker-1 (21:18) Roughly. mean, yeah. You know, I, the most ideal is that I think when the average doctor starts to work with us, their profit margin is in the twenties, the 20 % range. our goal is to get them into the forties. Okay. And everyone does chase this like 50 % number, but I will tell you that eventually if you have to scale again, if you have to reinvest, that's the part like you're, drive yourself nuts. Would you rather have, you know, 50 % of 1 million or do you rather have 40 % of 3 million? Right.   You know, and that's that. So it's not always just about that overhead percentage. Uh, it is about if you choose to scale and you're, you're buying, you're reinvesting some of your, your overhead percentage, you're reinvesting some of your money to buy back your time. Like you said earlier, okay. Um, whether that's on multiple doctors or not, you know, being a slave to the chair is difficult and high risk to you as a business owner. It's one of the riskiest business models there is.   speaker-0 (22:12) Right.   I think that that's such a good point.   But guys, you don't know, can, Pro-Fi is fantastic. You can reach out to them, have them help you with your PNLs. Also your current CPAs, you can get a chart of accounts and give them these percentages and say, this is where I want it to be. Help me get there, give me some information because a lot of CPAs are not dental specific and they might not know these industry standards. And I agree with you. I also think it's important to think of growth years and also profit years. Some years you are definitely massively.   reinvesting into the practice and you might not be sitting at as high of an overhead, but you're doing it with the intent. Like when I bring on new team members, when you bring on new doctors, your overhead is going to go down. It should go down because you are investing and you're growing, but you need those people. This year on Dental A Team is a growth year. I am heavily bringing on new team members. My overhead is not as great as it has been in the past years. But if I, like you said, chase that X number of overhead and never invest in that growth,   I can't get to the next level of where I wanna go. So I thought that was really, really helpful. Thank you for that, Chris. And I know now we wanna spin over to Brent. Brent's been hanging out silently over there of some tax things. And I do love that you guys ying and yang on practice metrics because that's what we're all about. And then the tax world that I'm like, here's the thing. Here's my take on taxes. I am so grateful to live in a country where I get to pay taxes to have my own business. Like I truly think that is a massive blessing of the country we live in.   With that said, I also think it's my responsibility as a business owner to be as savvy as I can on taxes and not overpay on taxes because I'm just dumb and I'm not actually looking at strategy using smart people beyond myself to do it. So Brent, I'm so jazzed. Talk to us kind of about some tax things that you've been thinking of that your clients are dealing with.   speaker-2 (24:00) Yeah, absolutely. So I remember a few early evening calls with you and you're calling and saying help.   speaker-0 (24:06) It was in December last year, like literally right before the end of the year. And I was like, Brent, I owe so much dang money in taxes. Any ideas? It's fine, guys. It's fine.   speaker-2 (24:19) One of the foundations of Pro-Fi that we built it on is education. So we are very big believers in educating our clients to understand, first and foremost, how do you even generate taxes? So the number of conversations we have with dentists that just don't have a basic understanding is really astounding to me. So we first take an approach of, you have to understand how do you generate income tax? You generate income tax by the salary or W-2 you take.   and profit. The key thing here is it does not matter if you take a dollar of that profit out of the business, you still owe tax on the profit. So here, when you're looking at your P &L, let's say a doctor has a half a million dollars of profit and they choose not to take it home and leave it in the business, they will still pay tax on half a million dollars. I had a call today, the exact conversation is like, why didn't take any of the money home?   speaker-0 (25:18) It doesn't matter. were profitable brother, sister, like rock on. Happy day for you.   speaker-2 (25:23) You know, as Chris was alluding to, if you choose to reinvest in the practice, do marketing or other items like that that are deductible, that will obviously reduce your burden. The second thing, the second biggest mistake is don't underestimate your effective tax rate. So Chris and I have, we call it, I guess the golden rule or the 40 % tax rule. And that is geared towards over-preparing a business owner when it comes time to send in those quarterly estimates.   And I'll come back to that one in a minute, but the 40 % tax rule, if you have a pen, I would write that down because that is a rule to live by. And also ask your CPA advisor, whoever they are, whether it's us or your other another CPA, ask them before you make the decisions. So I got a call yesterday from a doctor in South Carolina. He's like, hey, I want to buy a machine that's going to cost me $85,000. My equipment rep said I'd get a 40 % tax deduction.   Just about that much.   speaker-0 (26:23) That was a clever salesperson.   speaker-2 (26:26) Yeah, they all do it. We love equipping reps. No badging equipment reps. But understanding, depending upon your entity type, whether or not you will be able to deduct that in the current year is a huge thing that you have to understand. Chris and I have seen so many doctors over the years that have come to us after the fact. And I think we've done a great job of educating, hey, I bought this equipment, it's $100,000.   When we do the tax return, it's like, you're not involved deducted. They're like, why not? The equipment reps that I could. So just make call your advisor before you do it. That's the best thing you can do for yourself.   speaker-0 (27:02) Well, and I, to that point, I just say like, you should have experts on your board as a business owner, people that you genuinely trust for taxes. And like you said, ask them, ask your rep about the best products and what they're seeing of results within the patient's mouth. Cause that's where they're experts. But I'm just going to put a massive plug, like, gosh, the number of dollars I have spent personally, because I didn't ask,   If we can save anybody even a couple of grand, like you're welcome. You're welcome. Just ask, ask before you do it.   speaker-2 (27:36) Right, absolutely. Then I kind of look at what are some things that you can do to make sure you're not blindsided by that tax surprise? ⁓ One thing we do is we always recommend in your business, you have to run multiple bank accounts. And one of those bank accounts is a tax savings account. Your business should fund and pay for your personal tax bill. So think about like ⁓ grandmother's cash envelope system.   create different buckets in the business, move the money out of your OpEx account because, know, like for me, if I have 20 bucks, $20 in cash in my pocket, I'm going to spend it. But if I put it away in the bucket where it's intended, it'll be there when I need it.   speaker-1 (28:18) My bucket, right?   speaker-0 (28:19) Yes, you can just send them my way this year Chris. It's fine Brent. It's fine I'll take him but Brent I want to speak so highly to that because ⁓ It really does help. I will also put a plug of like have really good financial planners and tax planners with you because I am actually really really good at saving money for taxes What I really get frustrated with is when it comes to December and I have been saving and I have been putting that away ⁓   And then they're like, Kiera, you owe an extra X amount. And I'm like, what the heck? I've even saved this. So that's where I also think it's really pro to have really good CPAs that are that actually no tax. So I am curious. You guys tell me the truth, because I don't know how this works. I'm not a CPA, but I swear every year I get a call December 1st and it's like almost a double what I've already saved for the whole year. And I'm a saver. Like I don't spend a dime in my business.   speaker-1 (29:14) call you get all year long, Kiera.   speaker-0 (29:16) It's not well, I have a monthly call with them and we even plan for taxes, but this year my quarterly taxes It's okay guys. I'm interviewing new cpas. It's okay. my cpn doesn't listen to the podcast I don't think if so, it's great. We've had a good run for several years But like that's where I get a surprise. Is it common? Should you be getting a surprise call on december 1st? If you've got good tax people, and you've been planning and preparing and putting money aside all year long is that   speaker-1 (29:41) As you answer this question for her and I would go over safe harbor estimates, but Kiera to set you up for what Brent's going to say. What happens is somebody tells you a number and you kind of start to operate like a zombie and you're like, okay, I put that number away, put it away and you did it. And you're like, okay, I put the number where you told me, but at the same time you're trying to grow your business.   speaker-0 (30:06) To that point though Chris I'm gonna like back on this because I think I'm actually a really smart business owner But every freaking year this happens. I'm trying to fix this and hopefully someone   speaker-1 (30:15) I think it has to do with your growth.   speaker-0 (30:18) I   overestimated what my growth would be this year. So I said I was going to be double what I was last year and we're coming in at about a 70 % growth of what I was last year. So I gave my CPA a 30 % extra window to project on me and we're still coming up a hundred, I'll say a different number, but I'm coming up more than I had saved.   almost three times as much as they had saved for me. cause I get burned every single year. So I'm like a squirrel with nuts and I put away for tax savings in my company because I never know what I'm going to owe. And it scares me. So with that said, I agree with growth. If you can, if you can project where you're going to go and you're having consistent quarterly meetings with your CPA, is it common to still have a massive like uptick in December? I would ask.   speaker-1 (31:04) No, it's not.   So look, to keep it simple, like, you know, I'm kind of talking on the managerial accounting side of things and Brent's talking on the tax side of things. If you're meeting with that accountant and you look at that bottom line profit, okay, you owe 40 % of that profit, whether you took it home or not. And then if you made any estimated tax payments, you can subtract those tax payments from that 40%. Okay. ⁓ And then you can apply some deductions and maybe bring the number down.   speaker-0 (31:24) Agreed.   I'm asking for a friend hashtag myself right now I mean I get better every year around taxes because I hate the surprise and I think most people do but I also wanted to point out I'm like I think I'm pretty savvy with business I talked to a ton of CPAs like this isn't like my first day running a business So and I'm happy to hear and with that 40 % So here's another thing that I've also which maybe I'm just dumb Maybe I'm just coming around the block to this so you guys can tell me ⁓ but it's 40 % of the profit correct like   And that profit also includes my W-2 as a business owner. So I've got to like...   speaker-1 (32:10) That profit is after your W-2. Hopefully your W-2, you have normal withholdings. Sure. you're like zero or one, you can kind of pretty much say, hopefully the federal and state taxes are all withheld from that for you. Right. have to worry about it. Okay. It's the profit that's left over after your W-2 and all the other expenses of the business you have 40 % on. So Brent, tell her about what happens at the beginning of the year.   When we talk, they those first estimates. think everybody starts to like, they get glued to the estimates and they never update them.   speaker-2 (32:41) Yeah, so a couple things. So, Kiera,   speaker-0 (32:45) Call   you in December, Brent. We're going to have this conversation in year two.   speaker-2 (32:49) Maybe we should start in January for next.   speaker-0 (32:51) I like that strategy is much better. I'm like I've even I started my tax meetings in July this year guys Like this is how much I'm paranoid and I'm like they're just shelling a ton on me again And I'm like how does it happen every year? I don't I don't understand so   speaker-2 (33:05) Here's a trend I noticed over the last four years. you know, there was in 2017, there was the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, which changed the tax code. also changed. There's also been changes to the payroll tax tables. So I would take UW2, look at your federal tax withheld and divide that by your taxable wages in box one. More than likely, it's going to be in the 10 to 12 % range.   If you were in the 40 % tax bracket, you're already 30 % short on your taxes. Let's say you pay yourself $100,000. If you're 30 % short, that's a five digit dollar. So that's where I'd first start. And that is very, very, very common. You will not see any withholding in a W-2 being over 25 % unless you manually requested that from the payroll company.   speaker-0 (33:39) Right.   speaker-2 (34:01) bonuses or automatically taxed at 25%, but your regular payroll is probably in the 10 to 12 % range. So that's one reason it's happened. What Crystal's talking about, so let's say that we prepare your return in April. So let's say your 2020 return and every accountant will do what's called a safe harbor tax estimate, which basically says your estimates will be 110 % of your prior year tax.   speaker-1 (34:30) The IRS wants you to put 10 % more than last year away, like pay them in advance. They like you to do it quarterly because collecting money once a year is a bad business model.   speaker-0 (34:40) And it's a bad business model.   speaker-2 (34:42) So like Chris said, when a client gets those estimates, and let's say they're $25,000 a quarter, they are fixed on $25,000 a quarter. So what we do is with all of our clients in June and early July, we actually run tax projections or mock tax returns the upcoming year. We pull their year to date profit, we get all their deductions and we project out if that original safe harbor estimate has changed.   Then we do it again in November and early December to make sure that you're still on track and also looking for additional ⁓ tax strategies. But to answer your question from earlier, should you be surprised with a big number? No, not if you're doing proper planning.   speaker-0 (35:30) with like a little variance, but I just want to point that out because I think so many business owners get scared of taxes and this year, don't worry guys, it's on my vision board by the age of 36. I will be a tax expert. I look at it every single night. I have no desire to be a CPA, but I really think it's important as business owners to educate yourself on taxes and like you said to plan and to save for it because otherwise it's just this always surprise bill that creates stress. For me as a business owner, I know often I just feel like   I don't dare spend money because I'm gonna get hit with this big unknown. And so I'm like this girl, I literally have four tax savings accounts in my business right now. And they're in like four different business accounts, so my CPA can't see them all. Because I'm like, you come to me every year with this huge surprise and every year it's like double what I thought you were gonna say. And like I'm grateful to be very successful in what we do. However, I don't think business owners should be surprised, especially if you have a good CPA. So I just wanted to like find out like, that normal?   I feel like I'm on the anomaly, but good to know on that.   speaker-1 (36:33) Tax surprises cause cash flow problems.   speaker-2 (36:39) So Kiera, let me quantify that one of   speaker-0 (36:41) Guys,   don't worry. Everyone on the podcast, this is a Cura therapy session. You're welcome to be attending this. So we're glad.   speaker-2 (36:48) So can there be a tax surprise? Yes. The reason the tax price might happen is if you told your CPA, hey, I'm going to be doing these improvements and they're going to be done by December 31st. If in December you tell them, well, it didn't work out and I'm not going to have all these expenses. And yes, you're going to, you're going to get a surprise because you didn't, your plan didn't follow through. The other thing is talking about the separate tax account in the business. It's,   speaker-0 (37:12) That's fair.   speaker-2 (37:18) Absolutely recommended, but the most important part is you cannot spend it on anything but your tax bill. You cannot not rob Peter to pay Paul. That is probably the biggest mistake you could make is saying, well, I'll take it now. I have eight months to put it back in.   speaker-0 (37:34) That's like that makes my heart stop. I feel so stressed for people and also for anyone who wants to know like you I wish you could see the zoom right now with me Brent and Chris You know these guys love what we're talking about because Brent is literally getting like so excited and so animated talking about this So that's just when you know people are good at what they do I get so geek I'll geek out on dentistry and systems and like how we can help you and they're jazzing about some some tax benefits here So I agree. I think that if you aren't doing that, I also like the thought of 40 %   Do you guys recommend, because I know another piece to it, which I realized this year was like charitable contributions. I'm LDS. And so having charitable contributions, 10 % is something that I was like, that was funny. We didn't prepare for that. So that's like another check that I wasn't planning. And then also like SEP and 401ks. Do you guys have anything that you recommend for that of having a tax savings fund, but also building up those other funds and those payments that you'll be making to reduce your tax bill? Yes.   but those are also pretty big expenses, depending upon how your business does every year. How do you guys manage or navigate that? Or should I just be saving more? Because again, I'm like building these funds up to this, I've got four accounts, because I stress out about it.   speaker-2 (38:44) So Chris, I'm gonna let you take that one on the cashflow. It's really cashflow planning.   speaker-1 (38:48) Yeah, a lot of questions in there.   speaker-0 (38:50) Cool, like I said, this is why I podcast guys, because I can ask my own personal questions.   speaker-1 (38:57) In terms of okay, should you be doing okay. what do you want me to start a chair charitable chair?   speaker-0 (39:03) Just   like I think that a lot of people might get quote-unquote surprised at the end of the year because not only do we have a tax bill to pay, we have charitable contributions that we're paying. We also have 7401Ks. Like there are quite a few other funds that need to be paid out again to reduce our tax bills to help us. But those are also cashflow that you need to have on hand as a business owner to be able to front that money. So I've been also thinking that could be why other people feel like it's a surprise at the end of the year, just all lumped into taxes when it is just other pieces to help reduce that tax bill for you.   speaker-1 (39:33) if   something is important to you, then it needs a separate bank account. if charitable giving is important to you, I think you should have a separate bank account so you can visually see that you've got it ready to pay. And in order to make it tax deductible, it does need to be a 501C3. can't just be any random, say, it's... Right? So ⁓ when it comes to all of the retirement accounts, mean, ⁓ 401Ks and IRAs and simple IRAs and all of that,   speaker-0 (39:51) about last year.   speaker-1 (40:02) Roth, that's like the smallest fraction. That's like the, you know, the entry level league of the tax code in terms of savings. And it's, it's really kind of the stuff that the masses can do. I certainly think it's important to save and save for retirement. think when you're a business owner and let me say this, mean, upfront, I'm a contrarian. I think when you're a business owner, you have to be a contrarian and know that not everything applies to you the same way as everyone else. Sure. I, my bias is I have a much.   stronger tendency to say, you know, spend the money in your business or put the, I should say, invest, reinvest the money in your business for growth, because it's going, there's an asset value to that, to that business. need to learn what that is and what you one day can exit it for. And it creates, gives you the most, you know, income. ⁓ If you put money into a 401k or you put money into marketing in your business, you get the same tax deduction. So that's a question. If you're looking for like year end stuff, you know,   You could put the money into the, into the retirement plan, or you could prepay some expenses for next year. ⁓ You lot of people, think don't trust their business, which is weird because it's the thing you have the most control over, but they don't trust their own business. Typically it's cause they're not really great at managing their own cashflow and having discipline. And so they're, they're hesitant to invest the money in the business. And they'd rather go roll the dice and put it in the stock market. And at the time of this podcast recording, let me tell you.   We are in a recession. It has already begun. Everything is very high. Stock market's high. Real estate is high. Your business is one of the safest places to put your money right now. It provides you an inflation hedge, okay? And it creates revenue. ⁓ And it's tax deductions. I'm a big believer in putting the money into your business or getting another business. I think Brent can talk about, know, people ask us like, what are some of the largest   speaker-0 (41:47) Right.   speaker-1 (41:56) deductions you can play in. Like what, are the bigger things you can do outside of a 401k? Tax deductions. Generally speaking, the tax code rewards you for doing things that improve our economy. And that's primarily investing in businesses, you know, adding another location, employing people and commercial real estate, commercial real estate is a big one. Again, commercial real estate's really high right now. It may not be the perfect time to be buying or building. Cause all of the costs are really high.   save that cash, even if you have to pay some taxes, save the cash for liquidity for the tough times. when this recession happens, most practice owners are going to stop investing in their business, they're to stop marketing. And you got to do the opposite. That is the time where you can do all of that at its lowest cost. that's when millionaires are really made is during recession. So I'm going on a tangent now. You got me passionate   speaker-0 (42:50) No,   I like it. I like hearing it because I like thinking of other things. think so often you said it really well of business owners want to contract. They want to not reinvest in themselves. It's like, well, like let's put it in the stock market because that's what I heard that we should do. But I really do love that mindset. And that's why I love podcasting. That's why I love talking to different people. This is why I bring you guys on here because I purposely, intentionally bring different ways of thinking out there. You've got to make your own decisions.   But I'm a big like when people are zigging, I want to zag. So right now real estate's hot. Commercial's hot. The stock market's hot. Like I literally am sitting here just thinking like, here, just sit on some cash. Like, like you said, I might have to pay more taxes on it, but sit on that cash because you know, it's going to drop. And during that time, that's when you do the exact opposite of what everyone else is doing. So I really love that advice. And I think it's wise and it's prudent. I also love what you said, Brent, of having the 40%.   A lot of people say do 30%, but agreed a lot of dentists do tip into that 40 % tax bracket. And I would much rather over prepare than under prepare. Chris, to your point, I really love also having the buckets for like we said, charitable contributions, if you're going to do ⁓ 401ks, but I really, agree with you too. I think reinvest in your business. Look to see, I do end of year spending. I look to see what I could reinvest in, what things are gonna propel us the most. I look at marketing, I look at website rebuilds, I look at.   Different softwares that are going to propel us forward different ways to make our our practice more efficient What things are really going to invest in our company and our team? To make it and then I just do fun things like, know trips places I definitely don't get much ROI on that except for emotional ROI, but I know I know this is a longer podcast guys I really hope and I also hope team members listening realize that this is not just for business owners. I think that this is also   Individual tax prepping make sure you are preparing look for ways that you can reinvest in yourself What things could you prepare for what things can you build out? Do you have separate savings accounts for different things that you're going to maybe you don't have to save for taxes But guess what maybe one day you will be a business owner So teach yourself the discipline to save now to look for reinvestment. I also think is super valuable. So I want   speaker-1 (45:05) team members, for those team members, what side hustle can you create? What side of business can you create? know, and what, what commercial or what even residential property, rental property could you create to give yourself rental income? And there are deductions that come along with that. But if all you do is just do your day to day job, whether you own a business or don't own a business, you're not going to save anything in taxes, nothing significant. got it. You got to create some value in the world out there.   speaker-0 (45:29) Agreed. say deliver the biggest and best value. So you guys teased me. So I want to wrap up our podcast with some things to not be doing. You guys have kind of like a hit list right now of some things, some tips that a lot of us might be doing that are cracking down. I know I have been privy to some of these things as well. So take us away. We'll wrap this up with just some, some of that hit list of what not to do. ⁓ and   you know, as we get in there, thank you guys for sharing all that you have. Thank you for doing a personal session with me already. So I'm excited for the hit list now.   speaker-2 (46:01) So I would say the biggest one that I've seen is the fascination that doctors have with crypto.   speaker-1 (46:01) Go ahead, Brent.   speaker-0 (46:12) Brent, it's because we're bored. We don't know what else to do with ourselves, so we're like, why not throw a little into crypto?   speaker-2 (46:17) Here's the problem. So I have about a half a dozen doctors over last six months. They called me and said, Hey, I put $200,000 into the crypto market, Bitcoin. And I'm like, really? Where did you, where did you write the check from for that investment from the practice? Here's the problem. If that practice is an S corporation and they invest that money in crypto and they hit it big, they could potentially blow up their IRS S corp election.   and the IRS will take it away from you. So if you're gonna do investments, do not write the check from your practice. You can take the money home as a distribution, then put it into crypto, but do not do it through your business.   speaker-0 (47:01) This is a moment where I just had like a, I'm like, good. I'm glad I did that at least right. even knowing. Why is that?   speaker-1 (47:03) Sorry.   So that one, I mean, that one can cause some serious damage. ⁓ But the other ones that I think nobody wants to hear when they're listening to this, and I get in all these battles on social media, Facebook groups and all that. But the two things that come up over and over and over again that everybody's kind of cheating on and they're going to get busted on is number one, paying employees and especially dentists and hygienists, paying them as 1099 contractors.   This is going to get you in trouble not only with the IRS, but with the Department of Labor. And there are some significant penalties. There is a black and white 20 question checklist that the IRS provides. You can Google that. You can find it directly on the IRS website. And it goes through a checklist of yes or no questions to determine if you qualify to be a 1099 independent contractor or if you fit the requirements of a W-2. And to simplify it,   The main thing is the element of control who controls the schedule, who tells you which patients you're seeing and when who's providing all the materials and the tools and equipment. And 99 % of the time, anyone in dentistry falls under the category of an employee. Pretty much have to be a specialist that owns their own separate practice already coming in part time in order for you to 10 99 them. And if you're 10 99ing them, you're 10 and you have to do it to their business. The other thing that doesn't work is when, you know, they're like,   Oh, I'm an individual doctor. I'll just set up an S corp and you can 1099 my escort. The IRS is not stupid. Again, they're they're looking at what are your what is your role within that that place that you're receiving the income from the revenue from. So anyway, everybody hates that. But I'm telling you, I   speaker-0 (48:58) I   don't think it's a, it's not a good place to play with fire. Um, I have a really, really, really awesome unemployment lawyer, um, and employment lawyer. He represents Uber Lyft Red Bull. He's in, um, San Francisco. If you guys need him, he's amazing. Reach out to us. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Um, but he told me he said, Kiera Uber and Lyft, which I personally think I'm no lawyer guys. I'm not there. Uber and Lyft to me are the epitome of 10 99 contractors.   but they are, ⁓ they're coming down, they're cracking down on it. And ⁓ I have heard that it is no longer just a small offense. It's a pretty big offense if you misclassify. To me, really, I'm a risky person, but I believe in being smart and also paying people the way they should be paid. As much as it's not fun, we transitioned our whole company and I just think play that one safe because labor laws are not something to ever mess with, in my opinion.   speaker-1 (49:51) Yep. And you know, the government has shelled out a lot of money through this pandemic and they've got to collect it and get it back. And they're going to get that back from small business owners. And, ⁓ you know, our, our dependent care systems of Medicare and social security are very fragile right now. And that's the one thing they do not want you to screw with. And so they collect that money through W2 payroll. They're going to, they're going to force more and more than everybody's W2, especially in the occupation of dentistry. Second thing is the cars. Okay. Everybody wants to run their cars through the business.   You might be allowed to run a car through your business. It depends on what type of business you're in. If you're in real estate and you're showing houses and you're driving your clients around, you can probably write your car off through your business. But in dentistry, you're going to sit across the table from an auditor and they're going to say, what does a car have to do with the business of dentistry? The IRS tax code says that your business expenses must be ordinary and necessary to the business for them to be deductible.   What does the car have to do with the business of dentistry? How is a vehicle ⁓ justified as 100 % business use as a necessary use in order to do dentistry?   speaker-0 (51:00) What if it's a wrapped vehicle that's marketing?   speaker-1 (51:03) That's different. there are very specific guidelines in the IRS tax code about what is marketing for a vehicle. must be fully wrapped. It can't just be magnets. It can't just be stickers. But it has to be significant that's used for marketing. What we find is not a lot of doctors want to wrap their test up.   speaker-0 (51:23) Because they're ticked off with the patient that Ruekinaal didn't go super well and they're cutting people off on their drive home and you don't really want your flashy business to be that car.   speaker-1 (51:31) Right. I mean, and to make it legitimate, mean, the car has to be legally registered in the business name. It has to be covered under business insurance, not your personal insurance. The loan has to be under the business name, not your personal name. And there's a, you know, most people are not doing that. They're doing, they're buying it personally. They're just making the payment out of their, out of their business. And they think that they can deduct the whole thing. And this is not true. There's even greater scrutiny if the business tries to buy, if the dental business tries to buy a vehicle.   and depreciate it, take it as 100 % use. So I know people hate to hear that, but I would just caution everyone listening, stay away from 1099 and cars in your business. But everyone's.   speaker-2 (52:12) doing   it!   speaker-0 (52:13) I heard a really great quote one day and they said Kiera everything's deductible until you get audited and I was like That's really good advice. I appreciate that. So guys, ⁓ Chris and Brent. Thank you guys for coming on the podcast Thank you for being people that I can call Brent. Thank you for being my December, you know midnight hour friend I loved last year. You said care. There's really not much we can do. Maybe we should have done this in January. So ⁓   But truly, I just appreciate you guys helping so many doctors. know you help a lot of our clients. Shout out to those clients that we mutually work together. I love working with CPA companies. I think we're a good peanut butter and jelly together. We help grow the practice, make them more profitable. You guys make sure that their books are in line. Give us the guiding stars of what levers to turn to help the practices. You take care of the taxes. So it's a really good yin and yang and   I hope all of you listening today found a lot of value. Team members, look at this for yourselves. Get the side hustle. I hope this spurred some, some topics, some conversation. Team members, can also help your practices reduce that tax bill. look for ways that you can spend end of year, just different things. So I definitely think team members have a lot of play in this as well. So Chris and Brent, thank you guys so much. It's super fun. If people want to connect with you, ⁓ maybe they're done with their CPA. Maybe they just want to find out if.   There might be another option out there. How can they connect with you? I know you guys specialize in DSOs, larger group practices, but also the solo practices as well. How can people connect if they're interested?   speaker-1 (53:40) Sure, so check us out online at our website, Profi2020.com. That's P-R-O-F-I-2-0-2-0.com. ⁓   speaker-0 (53:47) You did   that because 2020 was such a great year that you guys want to remember. ⁓   speaker-1 (53:53) That marketing plan went out the window. It was 20-20 clarity to give you clarity on your finance.   speaker-0 (53:54) No.   I   just thought I'd throw it out there. So no one will forget Pro-Fi 2020. 2020 was most memorable year guys. Don't forget it. They don't want to forget it ever.   speaker-1 (54:07) We have tons of free videos, a lot of great content on there. Check us out on our YouTube channel, all social media, know, at Profi2020. We're very easy to find. ⁓ But we're managerial accountants. It's way different than financial accountants out there. Make sure you look up that difference and know what you're asking for. ⁓ And we always do free consultations for anyone who would like it.   speaker-0 (54:29) Awesome. Well, Chris and Brent, thank you again so much, guys. Go check them out, Profi2020. Chris and Brent, they are the owners of the organization. So super grateful for you guys coming on here.   Kiera Dent (54:38) I hope you all loved today's episode as much as I did. It is crazy to think that this many episodes have been released since we started the Dental A Team Podcast. And I started looking to say, my goodness, our listeners need to be reminded of some of the things they may have learned a year ago or two years ago or five years ago, because so many things in our practices weren't relevant back then when we heard them, but they are relevant today. And I would be doing you a huge disservice if I didn't re-release some of these episodes for you to remember, to refine.   to optimize and really truly if you ever need a topic or you're like, my gosh, I wonder if the Dental A Team has anything like this, go onto our website, TheDentalATeam.com, click on our podcast tab and you can literally search any topic. So whether it's overhead or hiring or firing or team morale or engagement or case acceptance or hygiene   onboarding or whatever it is, we have so many episodes for you. And so I am going to intentionally be   re-releasing some of the top best episodes for you, pulling back some of the ones that I needed to remember, some of the things that I feel for you to really, really relearn right now and to re-remember, or if it's the first time, welcome. I'm so happy you're listening to it, but I hope you truly enjoyed today's episode. I hope that you share this with somebody. I hope that you go and implement today because we only have one day. We only get today. And so making today the best that it possibly can be. If we can help you in any way, shape or form, reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com.   And as always, thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.

A new weather app from the Dark Sky team sparks mixed reactions from Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Eric Bolden, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Jim Rea, and Brian Flanigan-Arthurs. The panel explores its predictive modeling, interface, and subscription models and privacy tradeoffs DuckDuckGo's AI image tool, growing concerns around data usage, surveillance, smart devices, and recent Microsoft's AI missteps add to the discussion on trust and responsibility.  MacVoices is supported by CleanMyMac from MacPaw. Get Tidy Today! Try 7 days free and use my code MACVOICES20 for 20% off at http://clnmy.com/MACVOICES Show Notes: Chapters: 0:00 Introduction and topic overview0:08 Acme Weather app first impressions2:28 Weather prediction models and accuracy discussion3:27 Subscription models and privacy implications4:51 Interface critiques and app comparisons8:47 DuckDuckGo AI image editing tool10:31 CleanMyMac sponsor message10:58 Data privacy and legal evidence concerns12:02 AI music generation with Gemini12:53 Smart glasses, detection apps, and surveillance awareness18:56 Microsoft AI controversies and Copilot issue21:30 Wrap-up and panel sign-offs Links: New ‘Acme Weather' app from Dark Sky creators wants to fix weather apps' biggest problem https://9to5mac.com/2026/02/23/new-weather-app-from-dark-sky-forecasts/ DuckDuckGo rolls out AI-powered image editing on Duck.aihttps://9to5mac.com/2026/02/19/duckduckgo-rolls-out-ai-powered-image-editing-on-duck-ai/ Police are finding suspects based on their online searches as courts weigh privacy concernshttps://apnews.com/article/google-reverse-keyword-search-privacy-c5a0bc6f3790213f92e78aae720d2379 'This is very serious': Judge threatens AI glasses wearers with contempt during Mark Zuckerberg's testimonyhttps://www.fastcompany.com/91495248/meta-ai-glasses-court-judge-threatens-wearers-contempt-mark-zuckerberg-testimony This App Will Detect People Wearing Smart Glasses Near Youhttps://lifehacker.com/tech/use-this-app-to-know-whether-someone-is-wearing-smart-glasses Mark Zuckerberg testifies in social media addiction trial that Meta just wants Instagram to be 'useful'https://www.engadget.com/social-media/mark-zuckerberg-testifies-in-social-media-addiction-trial-that-meta-just-wants-instagram-to-be-useful-234332316.html Microsoft says bug causes Copilot to summarize confidential emailshttps://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-says-bug-causes-copilot-to-summarize-confidential-emails/ Microsoft deletes blog telling users to train AI on pirated Harry Potter bookshttps://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2026/02/microsoft-removes-guide-on-how-to-train-llms-on-pirated-harry-potter-books/ Guests: Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

An update on the ongoing legal controversy surrounding tech leaker John Prosser kicks off this MacVoices Live!. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Eric Bolden, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Jim Rea, and Brian Flanigan-Arthurs look at Apple's potential U.S. manufacturing of the Mac mini and what that could mean for production, tariffs, and supply chains. The group then dives into a wave of tech nostalgia, debating the reported resurgence of iPods and comparing it with renewed interest in film cameras, vinyl records, and other retro tech.  MacVoices is supported by CleanMyMac from MacPaw. Get Tidy Today! Try 7 days free and use my code MACVOICES20 for 20% off at http://clnmy.com/MACVOICES Show Notes: Chapters: 0:00 – Apple news preview: Mac minis, iPods, and tech nostalgia 0:11 – Sponsor message: CleanMyMac 0:22 – John Prosser legal issues and Apple's demands 2:12 – Panel reactions to the Prosser situation 2:23 – Apple reportedly moving Mac mini production to the U.S. 3:38 – Debate over what U.S. Mac mini production implies 6:47 – Manufacturing details and Apple's infrastructure investments 8:03 – Tariffs, assembly, and supply chain considerations 10:40 – Chips, Taiwan manufacturing, and geopolitical concerns 14:15 – Sponsor message: CleanMyMac and Space Lens 16:03 – Reports of Gen Z rediscovering the iPod 19:33 – Personal memories and experiences with iPods 21:15 – Streaming vs. dedicated music players 23:56 – Is the iPod comeback real or just nostalgia? 27:23 – Could modern devices replace the iPod experience? 29:17 – Retro photography and film camera revival 32:20 – Polaroid-style cameras and analog appeal 35:17 – CRT monitors and other retro tech memories 36:03 – Show wrap-up and contact information Links: Leaker's legal troubles haven't ended, as he makes more videos 
 https://appleinsider.com/articles/26/02/20/leakers-legal-troubles-havent-ended-as-he-makes-more-videos Apple will start making Mac minis in the US https://www.engadget.com/big-tech/apple-will-start-making-mac-minis-in-the-us-101000341.html Young adults turn to iPods and vintage tech over iPhones https://appleinsider.com/articles/26/02/23/why-gen-z-and-young-adults-are-embracing-ipods-again Guests: Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support: Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect: Web:      http://macvoices.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/ MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/ Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher: Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

Dealing with DIY Objections (and Preempting Objections, generally)>> Get the newest LFG episodes delivered to your inbox when you Sign Up for our Newsletter.>> Get the new book beyondintakebook.comResource Links:Fast track your marketing efforts while avoiding common marketing mistakes in our new trainingEstate planning attorney? Stop guessing how to get results from online ads and grow your firm with our client-generating Seminar 3.0 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A new weather app from the Dark Sky team sparks mixed reactions from Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Eric Bolden, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Jim Rea, and Brian Flanigan-Arthurs. The panel explores its predictive modeling, interface, and subscription models and privacy tradeoffs DuckDuckGo's AI image tool, growing concerns around data usage, surveillance, smart devices, and recent Microsoft's AI missteps add to the discussion on trust and responsibility.  MacVoices is supported by CleanMyMac from MacPaw. Get Tidy Today! Try 7 days free and use my code MACVOICES20 for 20% off at http://clnmy.com/MACVOICES Show Notes: Chapters: 0:00 Introduction and topic overview 0:08 Acme Weather app first impressions 2:28 Weather prediction models and accuracy discussion 3:27 Subscription models and privacy implications 4:51 Interface critiques and app comparisons 8:47 DuckDuckGo AI image editing tool 10:31 CleanMyMac sponsor message 10:58 Data privacy and legal evidence concerns 12:02 AI music generation with Gemini 12:53 Smart glasses, detection apps, and surveillance awareness 18:56 Microsoft AI controversies and Copilot issue 21:30 Wrap-up and panel sign-offs Links: New 'Acme Weather' app from Dark Sky creators wants to fix weather apps' biggest problem https://9to5mac.com/2026/02/23/new-weather-app-from-dark-sky-forecasts/ DuckDuckGo rolls out AI-powered image editing on Duck.ai https://9to5mac.com/2026/02/19/duckduckgo-rolls-out-ai-powered-image-editing-on-duck-ai/ Police are finding suspects based on their online searches as courts weigh privacy concerns https://apnews.com/article/google-reverse-keyword-search-privacy-c5a0bc6f3790213f92e78aae720d2379 'This is very serious': Judge threatens AI glasses wearers with contempt during Mark Zuckerberg's testimony https://www.fastcompany.com/91495248/meta-ai-glasses-court-judge-threatens-wearers-contempt-mark-zuckerberg-testimony This App Will Detect People Wearing Smart Glasses Near You https://lifehacker.com/tech/use-this-app-to-know-whether-someone-is-wearing-smart-glasses Mark Zuckerberg testifies in social media addiction trial that Meta just wants Instagram to be 'useful' https://www.engadget.com/social-media/mark-zuckerberg-testifies-in-social-media-addiction-trial-that-meta-just-wants-instagram-to-be-useful-234332316.html Microsoft says bug causes Copilot to summarize confidential emails https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-says-bug-causes-copilot-to-summarize-confidential-emails/ Microsoft deletes blog telling users to train AI on pirated Harry Potter books https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2026/02/microsoft-removes-guide-on-how-to-train-llms-on-pirated-harry-potter-books/ Guests: Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

An update on the ongoing legal controversy surrounding tech leaker John Prosser kicks off this MacVoices Live!. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Eric Bolden, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Jim Rea, and Brian Flanigan-Arthurs look at Apple's potential U.S. manufacturing of the Mac mini and what that could mean for production, tariffs, and supply chains. The group then dives into a wave of tech nostalgia, debating the reported resurgence of iPods and comparing it with renewed interest in film cameras, vinyl records, and other retro tech.  MacVoices is supported by CleanMyMac from MacPaw. Get Tidy Today! Try 7 days free and use my code MACVOICES20 for 20% off at http://clnmy.com/MACVOICES Show Notes: Chapters: 0:00 – Apple news preview: Mac minis, iPods, and tech nostalgia 0:11 – Sponsor message: CleanMyMac 0:22 – John Prosser legal issues and Apple's demands 2:12 – Panel reactions to the Prosser situation 2:23 – Apple reportedly moving Mac mini production to the U.S. 3:38 – Debate over what U.S. Mac mini production implies 6:47 – Manufacturing details and Apple's infrastructure investments 8:03 – Tariffs, assembly, and supply chain considerations 10:40 – Chips, Taiwan manufacturing, and geopolitical concerns 14:15 – Sponsor message: CleanMyMac and Space Lens 16:03 – Reports of Gen Z rediscovering the iPod 19:33 – Personal memories and experiences with iPods 21:15 – Streaming vs. dedicated music players 23:56 – Is the iPod comeback real or just nostalgia? 27:23 – Could modern devices replace the iPod experience? 29:17 – Retro photography and film camera revival 32:20 – Polaroid-style cameras and analog appeal 35:17 – CRT monitors and other retro tech memories 36:03 – Show wrap-up and contact information Links: Leaker's legal troubles haven't ended, as he makes more videos
https://appleinsider.com/articles/26/02/20/leakers-legal-troubles-havent-ended-as-he-makes-more-videos Apple will start making Mac minis in the US https://www.engadget.com/big-tech/apple-will-start-making-mac-minis-in-the-us-101000341.html Young adults turn to iPods and vintage tech over iPhones https://appleinsider.com/articles/26/02/23/why-gen-z-and-young-adults-are-embracing-ipods-again Guests: Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

The MacVoices panel continues their analysis of the MacBook Neo, pushing back against reviewers focused only on benchmarks rather than real-world usability. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Marty Jencius, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Jim Rea, Mark Fuccio, Web Bixby, and Eric Bolden discuss the machine's intended audience, its value as an affordable entry into the Mac ecosystem, and its potential impact in education and retail markets. The conversation also examines Apple's decision to remove a high-end Mac Studio configuration and what it might signal about supply constraints and product strategy.  This edition of MacVoices is brought to you by the MacVoices Dispatch, our weekly newsletter that keeps you up-to-date on any and all MacVoices-related information. Subscribe today and don't miss a thing. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 MacBook Neo analysis and Mac Studio configuration loss 00:11 Introduction and newsletter mention 00:28 Performance claims about the MacBook Neo 02:36 Real-world expectations versus benchmark tests 03:57 Reviewer reactions and performance discussion 05:41 Why Apple emphasizes price over specs 08:02 Entry point into the Apple ecosystem 09:52 Comparing the Neo to Chromebooks and iPads 12:52 Retail and education market potential 14:10 Market positioning and intended audience 17:54 Finding use cases for the MacBook Neo 20:43 Apple Silicon and broader market implications 23:56 Future impact on Apple's PC market share 25:41 Mac Studio configuration disappears 27:04 Possible RAM supply constraints 28:58 Predictions for Mac Studio's return Links: The MacBook Neo Outperforms These M-Series MacBooks https://lifehacker.com/tech/the-macbook-neos-binned-iphone-chip-vs-other-macbooks MacBook Neo designer Molly Anderson is among the new faces added to Apple's leadership page https://appleinsider.com/articles/26/03/09/apples-updated-leadership-page-reveals-renewed-focus-on-design MacBook Neo will warn you if you plug a display into the wrong USB-C port https://9to5mac.com/2026/03/04/macbook-neo-will-warn-you-if-you-plug-a-display-into-the-wrong-usb-c-port/ Apple's 512GB Mac Studio vanishes, a quiet acknowledgment of the RAM shortage https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2026/03/apples-512gb-mac-studio-vanishes-a-quiet-acknowledgement-of-the-ram-shortage/ Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Mark Fuccio is actively involved in high tech startup companies, both as a principle at piqsure.com, or as a marketing advisor through his consulting practice Tactics Sells High Tech, Inc. Mark was a proud investor in Microsoft from the mid-1990's selling in mid 2000, and hopes one day that MSFT will be again an attractive investment. You can contact Mark through Twitter, LinkedIn, or on Mastodon. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

The MacVoices panel continues their analysis of the MacBook Neo, pushing back against reviewers focused only on benchmarks rather than real-world usability. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Marty Jencius, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Jim Rea, Mark Fuccio, Web Bixby, and Eric Bolden discuss the machine's intended audience, its value as an affordable entry into the Mac ecosystem, and its potential impact in education and retail markets. The conversation also examines Apple's decision to remove a high-end Mac Studio configuration and what it might signal about supply constraints and product strategy.  This edition of MacVoices is brought to you by the MacVoices Dispatch, our weekly newsletter that keeps you up-to-date on any and all MacVoices-related information. Subscribe today and don't miss a thing. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 MacBook Neo analysis and Mac Studio configuration loss00:11 Introduction and newsletter mention00:28 Performance claims about the MacBook Neo02:36 Real-world expectations versus benchmark tests03:57 Reviewer reactions and performance discussion05:41 Why Apple emphasizes price over specs08:02 Entry point into the Apple ecosystem09:52 Comparing the Neo to Chromebooks and iPads12:52 Retail and education market potential14:10 Market positioning and intended audience17:54 Finding use cases for the MacBook Neo20:43 Apple Silicon and broader market implications23:56 Future impact on Apple's PC market share25:41 Mac Studio configuration disappears27:04 Possible RAM supply constraints28:58 Predictions for Mac Studio's return Links: The MacBook Neo Outperforms These M-Series MacBookshttps://lifehacker.com/tech/the-macbook-neos-binned-iphone-chip-vs-other-macbooks MacBook Neo designer Molly Anderson is among the new faces added to Apple's leadership pagehttps://appleinsider.com/articles/26/03/09/apples-updated-leadership-page-reveals-renewed-focus-on-design MacBook Neo will warn you if you plug a display into the wrong USB-C porthttps://9to5mac.com/2026/03/04/macbook-neo-will-warn-you-if-you-plug-a-display-into-the-wrong-usb-c-port/ Apple's 512GB Mac Studio vanishes, a quiet acknowledgment of the RAM shortagehttps://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2026/03/apples-512gb-mac-studio-vanishes-a-quiet-acknowledgement-of-the-ram-shortage/ Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Mark Fuccio is actively involved in high tech startup companies, both as a principle at piqsure.com, or as a marketing advisor through his consulting practice Tactics Sells High Tech, Inc. Mark was a proud investor in Microsoft from the mid-1990's selling in mid 2000, and hopes one day that MSFT will be again an attractive investment. You can contact Mark through Twitter, LinkedIn, or on Mastodon. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

Welcome to Daily Bitachon on our Friday afternoon special Shabbat edition. The Sefer Yereim , written by one of the Rishonim, Rabbi Eliezer of Metz (Volume 2, Siman 410), teaches us that just as there is a mitzvah to fear the Beit HaMikdash , there is also a mitzvah to fear Shabbat. Now, as we know, there is no single definitive list of the 613 mitzvot in the Torah; while the Gemara tells us the total number is 613, many Rishonim count them differently. The Yereim specifically chooses to include the "Fear of Shabbat" on his list. What is his source? The Gemara in Yevamot 6a points to a comparison between Shabbat and the Beit HaMikdash , as it says in Vayikra 19:30 : " את שבתותי תשמורו ומקדשי תיראו " —"You shall keep My Sabbaths and fear My Sanctuary." Just as there is a mitzvah to fear the Sanctuary, so too there is a mitzvah to fear Shabbat. The Gemara continues by clarifying: " לא משבת אתה מתיירא " —"It is not Shabbat itself that you fear," " אלא ממי שהזהיר על השבת " —"but rather the One who commanded the Shabbat." This means there is a specific responsibility for Yirat Shamayim (fear of Heaven) on Shabbat, just as there is when one enters the Beit HaMikdash . Holiness in Three Dimensions The question arises: What is so unique about Shabbat that it warrants this special mitzvah? We have many commandments—like Tefillin—that God also commanded. Why is "fear" attached to this one? The answer, as we have mentioned many times, is that holiness ( kedusha ) manifests in three dimensions: Person, Place, and Time. The Kohen Gadol was the holiest person. The Beit HaMikdash is the holiest place. The Shabbat is the holiest time. In a sense, the Beit HaMikdash is our "Shabbat in space," and Shabbat is our "Sanctuary in time." We see this connection even in people; the Gemara says a Talmid Chacham is like the Beit HaMikdash . The Zohar even suggests that for a Talmid Chacham —who is immersed in Torah constantly—all seven days of the week are like Shabbat. Regarding the verse " את ה' אלהיך תירא " ("Fear Hashem your God"), the Sages teach lerabbot talmidei chachamim —this includes fearing the Torah scholar, who acts as a sanctuary where God dwells. God dwells in people, He dwells in places, and He dwells in time. The Atmosphere of the Day Once we understand this, the mitzvah to fear Shabbat becomes obvious. Just as you feel a sense of respect, sanctity, and decorum when you stand by the Kotel HaMa'aravi or enter a Shul, Shabbat demands the same. We must approach the day with dignity because its essence is kedusha . Entering Shabbat should feel like walking into the Holy Temple or into the presence of a great Gadol . I remember the sense of trepidation and awe when walking in to see the Steipler Gaon or Rav Shach. That same Yirat Shamayim is intrinsically woven into Shabbat. The Zohar even notes that the word "Bereishit" (In the beginning), when re-scrambled, spells "Yarei Shabbat" (Fear of Shabbat). This awe is the foundation of our entire Torah. A Gift from the Treasure House One commentary explains the famous Midrash where God says: " מתנה טובה יש לי בבית גנזי "—"I have a good gift in My treasure house [and its name is Shabbat]." What exactly is kept in God's treasure house? The Gemara says that the only thing Hashem keeps in His "storehouse" is Yirat Shamayim . Why? Because a person's treasure house usually contains the things most precious to them, often things they don't "possess" naturally. God "owns" everything, but there is one thing He doesn't "have" unless we give it to Him: " הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים "—"Everything is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven." That fear is God's treasure. Every Shabbat, He gives us a "dose" of it from His private collection. He builds that awe into the very fabric of the day. The Natural Fear of the Day The Yerushalmi (cited by the Rambam in Hilchot Ma'aser ) brings down a fascinating concept regarding Terumot and Ma'asrot (tithes). Generally, the Sages did not trust an Am HaAretz (an unlearned person) regarding whether their produce was tithed. However, on Shabbat, if an Am HaAretz claimed the food was tithed, we believed him. Why? " אימת שבת על עמי הארץ "—"The awe of Shabbat is upon even the unlearned." The holiness of the day was so palpable that it would stop a person from lying or committing a transgression. While we may not feel that "natural" fear as instinctively today, it is something we are meant to work on. According to the Yereim , it is a direct commandment to maintain an extra sense of awareness and reverence for the sanctity of Shabbat

Turbopuffer came out of a reading app.In 2022, Simon was helping his friends at Readwise scale their infra for a highly requested feature: article recommendations and semantic search. Readwise was paying ~$5k/month for their relational database and vector search would cost ~$20k/month making the feature too expensive to ship. In 2023 after mulling over the problem from Readwise, Simon decided he wanted to “build a search engine” which became Turbopuffer.We discuss:• Simon's path: Denmark → Shopify infra for nearly a decade → “angel engineering” across startups like Readwise, Replicate, and Causal → turbopuffer almost accidentally becoming a company • The Readwise origin story: building an early recommendation engine right after the ChatGPT moment, seeing it work, then realizing it would cost ~$30k/month for a company spending ~$5k/month total on infra and getting obsessed with fixing that cost structure • Why turbopuffer is “a search engine for unstructured data”: Simon's belief that models can learn to reason, but can't compress the world's knowledge into a few terabytes of weights, so they need to connect to systems that hold truth in full fidelity • The three ingredients for building a great database company: a new workload, a new storage architecture, and the ability to eventually support every query plan customers will want on their data • The architecture bet behind turbopuffer: going all in on object storage and NVMe, avoiding a traditional consensus layer, and building around the cloud primitives that only became possible in the last few years • Why Simon hated operating Elasticsearch at Shopify: years of painful on-call experience shaped his obsession with simplicity, performance, and eliminating state spread across multiple systems • The Cursor story: launching turbopuffer as a scrappy side project, getting an email from Cursor the next day, flying out after a 4am call, and helping cut Cursor's costs by 95% while fixing their per-user economics • The Notion story: buying dark fiber, tuning TCP windows, and eating cross-cloud costs because Simon refused to compromise on architecture just to close a deal faster • Why AI changes the build-vs-buy equation: it's less about whether a company can build search infra internally, and more about whether they have time especially if an external team can feel like an extension of their own • Why RAG isn't dead: coding companies still rely heavily on search, and Simon sees hybrid retrieval semantic, text, regex, SQL-style patterns becoming more important, not less • How agentic workloads are changing search: the old pattern was one retrieval call up front; the new pattern is one agent firing many parallel queries at once, turning search into a highly concurrent tool call • Why turbopuffer is reducing query pricing: agentic systems are dramatically increasing query volume, and Simon expects retrieval infra to adapt to huge bursts of concurrent search rather than a small number of carefully chosen calls • The philosophy of “playing with open cards”: Simon's habit of being radically honest with investors, including telling Lachy Groom he'd return the money if turbopuffer didn't hit PMF by year-end • The “P99 engineer”: Simon's framework for building a talent-dense company, rejecting by default unless someone on the team feels strongly enough to fight for the candidate —Simon Hørup Eskildsen• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sirupsen• X: https://x.com/Sirupsen• https://sirupsen.com/aboutturbopuffer• https://turbopuffer.com/Full Video PodTimestamps00:00:00 The PMF promise to Lachy Groom00:00:25 Intro and Simon's background00:02:19 What turbopuffer actually is00:06:26 Shopify, Elasticsearch, and the pain behind the company00:10:07 The Readwise experiment that sparked turbopuffer00:12:00 The insight Simon couldn't stop thinking about00:17:00 S3 consistency, NVMe, and the architecture bet00:20:12 The Notion story: latency, dark fiber, and conviction00:25:03 Build vs. buy in the age of AI00:26:00 The Cursor story: early launch to breakout customer00:29:00 Why code search still matters00:32:00 Search in the age of agents00:34:22 Pricing turbopuffer in the AI era00:38:17 Why Simon chose Lachy Groom00:41:28 Becoming a founder on purpose00:44:00 The “P99 engineer” philosophy00:49:30 Bending software to your will00:51:13 The future of turbopuffer00:57:05 Simon's tea obsession00:59:03 Tea kits, X Live, and P99 LiveTranscriptSimon Hørup Eskildsen: I don't think I've said this publicly before, but I just called Lockey and was like, local Lockie. Like if this doesn't have PMF by the end of the year, like we'll just like return all the money to you. But it's just like, I don't really, we, Justine and I don't wanna work on this unless it's really working.So we want to give it the best shot this year and like we're really gonna go for it. We're gonna hire a bunch of people. We're just gonna be honest with everyone. Like when I don't know how to play a game, I just play with open cards. Lockey was the only person that didn't, that didn't freak out. He was like, I've never heard anyone say that before.Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Leading Space podcast. This is Celesio Pando, Colonel Laz, and I'm joined by Swix, editor of Leading Space.swyx: Hello. Hello, uh, we're still, uh, recording in the Ker studio for the first time. Very excited. And today we are joined by Simon Eski. Of Turbo Farer welcome.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Thank you so much for having me.swyx: Turbo Farer has like really gone on a huge tear, and I, I do have to mention that like you're one of, you're not my newest member of the Danish AHU Mafia, where like there's a lot of legendary programmers that have come out of it, like, uh, beyond Trotro, Rasmus, lado Berg and the V eight team and, and Google Maps team.Uh, you're mostly a Canadian now, but isn't that interesting? There's so many, so much like strong Danish presence.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, I was writing a post, um, not that long ago about sort of the influences. So I grew up in Denmark, right? I left, I left when, when I was 18 to go to Canada to, to work at Shopify. Um, and so I, like, I've, I would still say that I feel more Danish than, than Canadian.This is also the weird accent. I can't say th because it, this is like, I don't, you know, my wife is also Canadian, um, and I think. I think like one of the things in, in Denmark is just like, there's just such a ruthless pragmatism and there's also a big focus on just aesthetics. Like, they're like very, people really care about like where, what things look like.Um, and like Canada has a lot of attributes, US has, has a lot of attributes, but I think there's been lots of the great things to carry. I don't know what's in the water in Ahu though. Um, and I don't know that I could be considered part of the Mafi mafia quite yet, uh, compared to the phenomenal individuals we just mentioned.Barra OV is also, uh, Danish Canadian. Okay. Yeah. I don't know where he lives now, but, and he's the PHP.swyx: Yeah. And obviously Toby German, but moved to Canada as well. Yes. Like this is like import that, uh, that, that is an interesting, um, talent move.Alessio: I think. I would love to get from you. Definition of Turbo puffer, because I think you could be a Vector db, which is maybe a bad word now in some circles, you could be a search engine.It's like, let, let's just start there and then we'll maybe run through the history of how you got to this point.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: For sure. Yeah. So Turbo Puffer is at this point in time, a search engine, right? We do full text search and we do vector search, and that's really what we're specialized in. If you're trying to do much more than that, like then this might not be the right place yet, but Turbo Buffer is all about search.The other way that I think about it is that we can take all of the world's knowledge, all of the exabytes and exabytes of data that there is, and we can use those tokens to train a model, but we can't compress all of that into a few terabytes of weights, right? Compress into a few terabytes of weights, how to reason with the world, how to make sense of the knowledge.But we have to somehow connect it to something externally that actually holds that like in full fidelity and truth. Um, and that's the thing that we intend to become. Right? That's like a very holier than now kind of phrasing, right? But being the search engine for unstructured, unstructured data is the focus of turbo puffer at this point in time.Alessio: And let's break down. So people might say, well, didn't Elasticsearch already do this? And then some other people might say, is this search on my data, is this like closer to rag than to like a xr, like a public search thing? Like how, how do you segment like the different types of search?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: The way that I generally think about this is like, there's a lot of database companies and I think if you wanna build a really big database company, sort of, you need a couple of ingredients to be in the air.We don't, which only happens roughly every 15 years. You need a new workload. You basically need the ambition that every single company on earth is gonna have data in your database. Multiple times you look at a company like Oracle, right? You will, like, I don't think you can find a company on earth with a digital presence that it not, doesn't somehow have some data in an Oracle database.Right? And I think at this point, that's also true for Snowflake and Databricks, right? 15 years later it's, or even more than that, there's not a company on earth that doesn't, in. Or directly is consuming Snowflake or, or Databricks or any of the big analytics databases. Um, and I think we're in that kind of moment now, right?I don't think you're gonna find a company over the next few years that doesn't directly or indirectly, um, have all their data available for, for search and connect it to ai. So you need that new workload, like you need something to be happening where there's a new workload that causes that to happen, and that new workload is connecting very large amounts of data to ai.The second thing you need. The second condition to build a big database company is that you need some new underlying change in the storage architecture that is not possible from the databases that have come before you. If you look at Snowflake and Databricks, right, commoditized, like massive fleet of HDDs, like that was not possible in it.It just wasn't in the air in the nineties, right? So you just didn't, we just didn't build these systems. S3 and and and so on was not around. And I think the architecture that is now possible that wasn't possible 15 years ago is to go all in on NVME SSDs. It requires a particular type of architecture for the database that.It's difficult to retrofit onto the databases that are already there, including the ones you just mentioned. The second thing is to go all in on OIC storage, more so than we could have done 15 years ago. Like we don't have a consensus layer, we don't really have anything. In fact, you could turn off all the servers that Turbo Buffer has, and we would not lose any data because we have all completely all in on OIC storage.And this means that our architecture is just so simple. So that's the second condition, right? First being a new workload. That means that every company on earth, either indirectly or directly, is using your database. Second being, there's some new storage architecture. That means that the, the companies that have come before you can do what you're doing.I think the third thing you need to do to build a big database company is that over time you have to implement more or less every Cory plan on the data. What that means is that you. You can't just get stuck in, like, this is the one thing that a database does. It has to be ever evolving because when someone has data in the database, they over time expect to be able to ask it more or less every question.So you have to do that to get the storage architecture to the limit of what, what it's capable of. Those are the three conditions.swyx: I just wanted to get a little bit of like the motivation, right? Like, so you left Shopify, you're like principal, engineer, infra guy. Um, you also head of kernel labs, uh, inside of Shopify, right?And then you consulted for read wise and that it kind of gave you that, that idea. I just wanted you to tell that story. Um, maybe I, you've told it before, but, uh, just introduce the, the. People to like the, the new workload, the sort of aha moment for turbo PufferSimon Hørup Eskildsen: For sure. So yeah, I spent almost a decade at Shopify.I was on the infrastructure team, um, from the fairly, fairly early days around 2013. Um, at the time it felt like it was growing so quickly and everything, all the metrics were, you know, doubling year on year compared to the, what companies are contending with today. It's very cute in growth. I feel like lot some companies are seeing that month over month.Um, of course. Shopify compound has been compounding for a very long time now, but I spent a decade doing that and the majority of that was just make sure the site is up today and make sure it's up a year from now. And a lot of that was really just the, um, you know, uh, the Kardashians would drive very, very large amounts of, of data to, to uh, to Shopify as they were rotating through all the merch and building out their businesses.And we just needed to make sure we could handle that. Right. And sometimes these were events, a million requests per second. And so, you know, we, we had our own data centers back in the day and we were moving to the cloud and there was so much sharding work and all of that that we were doing. So I spent a decade just scaling databases ‘cause that's fundamentally what's the most difficult thing to scale about these sites.The database that was the most difficult for me to scale during that time, and that was the most aggravating to be on call for, was elastic search. It was very, very difficult to deal with. And I saw a lot of projects that were just being held back in their ambition by using it.swyx: And I mean, self-hosted.Self-hosted. ‘causeSimon Hørup Eskildsen: it's, yeah, and it commercial, this is like 2015, right? So it's like a very particular vintage. Right. It's probably better at a lot of these things now. Um, it was difficult to contend with and I'm just like, I just think about it. It's an inverted index. It should be good at these kinds of queries and do all of this.And it was, we, we often couldn't get it to do exactly what we needed to do or basically get lucine to do, like expose lucine raw to, to, to what we needed to do. Um, so that was like. Just something that we did on the side and just panic scaled when we needed to, but not a particular focus of mine. So I left, and when I left, I, um, wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do.I mean, it spent like a decade inside of the same company. I'd like grown up there. I started working there when I was 18.swyx: You only do Rails?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Rails. And he's a Rails guy. Uh, love Rails. So good. Um,Alessio: we all wish we could still work in Rails.swyx: I know know. I know, but some, I tried learning Ruby.It's just too much, like too many options to do the same thing. It's, that's my, I I know there's a, there's a way to do it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I love it. I don't know that I would use it now, like given cloud code and, and, and cursor and everything, but, um, um, but still it, like if I'm just sitting down and writing a teal code, that's how I think.But anyway, I left and I wasn't, I talked to a couple companies and I was like, I don't. I need to see a little bit more of the world here to know what I'm gonna like focus on next. Um, and so what I decided is like I was gonna, I called it like angel engineering, where I just hopped around in my friend's companies in three months increments and just helped them out with something.Right. And, and just vested a bit of equity and solved some interesting infrastructure problem. So I worked with a bunch of companies at the time, um, read Wise was one of them. Replicate was one of them. Um, causal, I dunno if you've tried this, it's like a, it's a spreadsheet engine Yeah. Where you can do distribution.They sold recently. Yeah. Um, we've been, we used that in fp and a at, um, at Turbo Puffer. Um, so a bunch of companies like this and it was super fun. And so we're the Chachi bt moment happened, I was with. With read Wise for a stint, we were preparing for the reader launch, right? Which is where you, you cue articles and read them later.And I was just getting their Postgres up to snuff, like, which basically boils down to tuning, auto vacuum. So I was doing that and then this happened and we were like, oh, maybe we should build a little recommendation engine and some features to try to hook in the lms. They were not that good yet, but it was clear there was something there.And so I built a small recommendation engine just, okay, let's take the articles that you've recently read, right? Like embed all the articles and then do recommendations. It was good enough that when I ran it on one of the co-founders of Rey's, like I found out that I got articles about, about having a child.I'm like, oh my God, I didn't, I, I didn't know that, that they were having a child. I wasn't sure what to do with that information, but the recommendation engine was good enough that it was suggesting articles, um, about that. And so there was, there was recommendations and uh, it actually worked really well.But this was a company that was spending maybe five grand a month in total on all their infrastructure and. When I did the napkin math on running the embeddings of all the articles, putting them into a vector index, putting it in prod, it's gonna be like 30 grand a month. That just wasn't tenable. Right?Like Read Wise is a proudly bootstrapped company and it's paying 30 grand for infrastructure for one feature versus five. It just wasn't tenable. So sort of in the bucket of this is useful, it's pretty good, but let us, let's return to it when the costs come down.swyx: Did you say it grows by feature? So for five to 30 is by the number of, like, what's the, what's the Scaling factor scale?It scales by the number of articles that you embed.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: It does, but what I meant by that is like five grand for like all of the other, like the Heroku, dinos, Postgres, like all the other, and this then storage is 30. Yeah. And then like 30 grand for one feature. Right. Which is like, what other articles are related to this one.Um, so it was just too much right to, to power everything. Their budget would've been maybe a few thousand dollars, which still would've been a lot. And so we put it in a bucket of, okay, we're gonna do that later. We'll wait, we will wait for the cost to come down. And that haunted me. I couldn't stop thinking about it.I was like, okay, there's clearly some latent demand here. If the cost had been a 10th, we would've shipped it and. This was really the only data point that I had. Right. I didn't, I, I didn't, I didn't go out and talk to anyone else. It was just so I started reading Right. I couldn't, I couldn't help myself.Like I didn't know what like a vector index is. I, I generally barely do about how to generate the vectors. There was a lot of hype about, this is a early 2023. There was a lot of hype about vector databases. There were raising a lot of money and it's like, I really didn't know anything about it. It's like, you know, trying these little models, fine tuning them.Like I was just trying to get sort of a lay of the land. So I just sat down. I have this. A GitHub repository called Napkin Math. And on napkin math, there's just, um, rows of like, oh, this is how much bandwidth. Like this is how many, you know, you can do 25 gigabytes per second on average to dram. You can do, you know, five gigabytes per second of rights to an SSD, blah blah.All of these numbers, right? And S3, how many you could do per, how much bandwidth can you drive per connection? I was just sitting down, I was like, why hasn't anyone build a database where you just put everything on O storage and then you puff it into NVME when you use the data and you puff it into dram if you're, if you're querying it alive, it's just like, this seems fairly obvious and you, the only real downside to that is that if you go all in on o storage, every right will take a couple hundred milliseconds of latency, but from there it's really all upside, right?You do the first go, it takes half a second. And it sort of occurred to me as like, well. The architecture is really good for that. It's really good for AB storage, it's really good for nvm ESSD. It's, well, you just couldn't have done that 10 years ago. Back to what we were talking about before. You really have to build a database where you have as few round trips as possible, right?This is how CPUs work today. It's how NVM E SSDs work. It's how as, um, as three works that you want to have a very large amount of outstanding requests, right? Like basically go to S3, do like that thousand requests to ask for data in one round trip. Wait for that. Get that, like, make a new decision. Do it again, and try to do that maybe a maximum of three times.But no databases were designed that way within NVME as is ds. You can drive like within, you know, within a very low multiple of DRAM bandwidth if you use it that way. And same with S3, right? You can fully max out the network card, which generally is not maxed out. You get very, like, very, very good bandwidth.And, but no one had built a database like that. So I was like, okay, well can't you just, you know, take all the vectors right? And plot them in the proverbial coordinate system. Get the clusters, put a file on S3 called clusters, do json, and then put another file for every cluster, you know, cluster one, do js O cluster two, do js ON you know that like it's two round trips, right?So you get the clusters, you find the closest clusters, and then you download the cluster files like the, the closest end. And you could do this in two round trips.swyx: You were nearest neighbors locally.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. Yes. And then, and you would build this, this file, right? It's just like ultra simplistic, but it's not a far shot from what the first version of Turbo Buffer was.Why hasn't anyone done thatAlessio: in that moment? From a workload perspective, you're thinking this is gonna be like a read heavy thing because they're doing recommend. Like is the fact that like writes are so expensive now? Oh, with ai you're actually not writing that much.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: At that point I hadn't really thought too much about, well no actually it was always clear to me that there was gonna be a lot of rights because at Shopify, the search clusters were doing, you know, I don't know, tens or hundreds of crew QPS, right?‘cause you just have to have a human sit and type in. But we did, you know, I don't know how many updates there were per second. I'm sure it was in the millions, right into the cluster. So I always knew there was like a 10 to 100 ratio on the read write. In the read wise use case. It's, um, even, even in the read wise use case, there'd probably be a lot fewer reads than writes, right?There's just a lot of churn on the amount of stuff that was going through versus the amount of queries. Um, I wasn't thinking too much about that. I was mostly just thinking about what's the fundamentally cheapest way to build a database in the cloud today using the primitives that you have available.And this is it, right? You just, now you have one machine and you know, let's say you have a terabyte of data in S3, you paid the $200 a month for that, and then maybe five to 10% of that data and needs to be an NV ME SSDs and less than that in dram. Well. You're paying very, very little to inflate the data.swyx: By the way, when you say no one else has done that, uh, would you consider Neon, uh, to be on a similar path in terms of being sort of S3 first and, uh, separating the compute and storage?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, I think what I meant with that is, uh, just build a completely new database. I don't know if we were the first, like it was very much, it was, I mean, I, I hadn't, I just looked at the napkin math and was like, this seems really obvious.So I'm sure like a hundred people came up with it at the same time. Like the light bulb and every invention ever. Right. It was just in the air. I think Neon Neon was, was first to it. And they're trying, they're retrofitted onto Postgres, right? And then they built this whole architecture where you have, you have it in memory and then you sort of.You know, m map back to S3. And I think that was very novel at the time to do it for, for all LTP, but I hadn't seen a database that was truly all in, right. Not retrofitting it. The database felt built purely for this no consensus layer. Even using compare and swap on optic storage to do consensus. I hadn't seen anyone go that all in.And I, I mean, there, there, I'm sure there was someone that did that before us. I don't know. I was just looking at the napkin mathswyx: and, and when you say consensus layer, uh, are you strongly relying on S3 Strong consistency? You are. Okay.SoSimon Hørup Eskildsen: that is your consensus layer. It, it is the consistency layer. And I think also, like, this is something that most people don't realize, but S3 only became consistent in December of 2020.swyx: I remember this coming out during COVID and like people were like, oh, like, it was like, uh, it was just like a free upgrade.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah.swyx: They were just, they just announced it. We saw consistency guys and like, okay, cool.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: And I'm sure that they just, they probably had it in prod for a while and they're just like, it's done right.And people were like, okay, cool. But. That's a big moment, right? Like nv, ME SSDs, were also not in the cloud until around 2017, right? So you just sort of had like 2017 nv, ME SSDs, and people were like, okay, cool. There's like one skew that does this, whatever, right? Takes a few years. And then the second thing is like S3 becomes consistent in 2020.So now it means you don't have to have this like big foundation DB or like zookeeper or whatever sitting there contending with the keys, which is how. You know, that's what Snowflake and others have do so muchswyx: for goneSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Exactly. Just gone. Right? And so just push to the, you know, whatever, how many hundreds of people they have working on S3 solved and then compare and swap was not in S3 at this point in time,swyx: by the way.Uh, I don't know what that is, so maybe you wanna explain. Yes. Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. So, um, what Compare and swap is, is basically, you can imagine that if you have a database, it might be really nice to have a file called metadata json. And metadata JSON could say things like, Hey, these keys are here and this file means that, and there's lots of metadata that you have to operate in the database, right?But that's the simplest way to do it. So now you have might, you might have a lot of servers that wanna change the metadata. They might have written a file and want the metadata to contain that file. But you have a hundred nodes that are trying to contend with this metadata that JSON well, what compare and Swap allows you to do is basically just you download the file, you make the modifications, and then you write it only if it hasn't changed.While you did the modification and if not you retry. Right? Should just have this retry loops. Now you can imagine if you have a hundred nodes doing that, it's gonna be really slow, but it will converge over time. That primitive was not available in S3. It wasn't available in S3 until late 2024, but it was available in GCP.The real story of this is certainly not that I sat down and like bake brained it. I was like, okay, we're gonna start on GCS S3 is gonna get it later. Like it was really not that we started, we got really lucky, like we started on GCP and we started on GCP because tur um, Shopify ran on GCP. And so that was the platform I was most available with.Right. Um, and I knew the Canadian team there ‘cause I'd worked with them at Shopify and so it was natural for us to start there. And so when we started building the database, we're like, oh yeah, we have to build a, we really thought we had to build a consensus layer, like have a zookeeper or something to do this.But then we discovered the compare and swap. It's like, oh, we can kick the can. Like we'll just do metadata r json and just, it's fine. It's probably fine. Um, and we just kept kicking the can until we had very, very strong conviction in the idea. Um, and then we kind of just hinged the company on the fact that S3 probably was gonna get this, it started getting really painful in like mid 2024.‘cause we were closing deals with, um, um, notion actually that was running in AWS and we're like, trust us. You, you really want us to run this in GCP? And they're like, no, I don't know about that. Like, we're running everything in AWS and the latency across the cloud were so big and we had so much conviction that we bought like, you know, dark fiber between the AWS regions in, in Oregon, like in the InterExchange and GCP is like, we've never seen a startup like do like, what's going on here?And we're just like, no, we don't wanna do this. We were tuning like TCP windows, like everything to get the latency down ‘cause we had so high conviction in not doing like a, a metadata layer on S3. So those were the three conditions, right? Compare and swap. To do metadata, which wasn't in S3 until late 2024 S3 being consistent, which didn't happen until December, 2020.Uh, 2020. And then NVMe ssd, which didn't end in the cloud until 2017.swyx: I mean, in some ways, like a very big like cloud success story that like you were able to like, uh, put this all together, but also doing things like doing, uh, bind our favor. That that actually is something I've never heard.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I mean, it's very common when you're a big company, right?You're like connecting your own like data center or whatever. But it's like, it was uniquely just a pain with notion because the, um, the org, like most of the, like if you're buying in Ashburn, Virginia, right? Like US East, the Google, like the GCP and, and AWS data centers are like within a millisecond on, on each other, on the public exchanges.But in Oregon uniquely, the GCP data center sits like a couple hundred kilometers, like east of Portland and the AWS region sits in Portland, but the network exchange they go through is through Seattle. So it's like a full, like 14 milliseconds or something like that. And so anyway, yeah. It's, it's, so we were like, okay, we can't, we have to go through an exchange in Portland.Yeah. Andswyx: you'd rather do this than like run your zookeeper and likeSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. Way rather. It doesn't have state, I don't want state and two systems. Um, and I think all that is just informed by Justine, my co-founder and I had just been on call for so long. And the worst outages are the ones where you have state in multiple places that's not syncing up.So it really came from, from a a, like just a, a very pure source of pain, of just imagining what we would be Okay. Being woken up at 3:00 AM about and having something in zookeeper was not one of them.swyx: You, you're talking to like a notion or something. Do they care or do they just, theySimon Hørup Eskildsen: just, they care about latency.swyx: They latency cost. That's it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: They just cared about latency. Right. And we just absorbed the cost. We're just like, we have high conviction in this. At some point we can move them to AWS. Right. And so we just, we, we'll buy the fiber, it doesn't matter. Right. Um, and it's like $5,000. Usually when you buy fiber, you buy like multiple lines.And we're like, we can only afford one, but we will just test it that when it goes over the public internet, it's like super smooth. And so we did a lot of, anyway, it's, yeah, it was, that's cool.Alessio: You can imagine talking to the GCP rep and it's like, no, we're gonna buy, because we know we're gonna turn, we're gonna turn from you guys and go to AWS in like six months.But in the meantime we'll do this. It'sSimon Hørup Eskildsen: a, I mean, like they, you know, this workload still runs on GCP for what it's worth. Right? ‘cause it's so, it was just, it was so reliable. So it was never about moving off GCP, it was just about honesty. It was just about giving notion the latency that they deserved.Right. Um, and we didn't want ‘em to have to care about any of this. We also, they were like, oh, egress is gonna be bad. It was like, okay, screw it. Like we're just gonna like vvc, VPC peer with you and AWS we'll eat the cost. Yeah. Whatever needs to be done.Alessio: And what were the actual workloads? Because I think when you think about ai, it's like 14 milliseconds.It's like really doesn't really matter in the scheme of like a model generation.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. We were told the latency, right. That we had to beat. Oh, right. So, so we're just looking at the traces. Right. And then sort of like hand draw, like, you know, kind of like looking at the trace and then thinking what are the other extensions of the trace?Right. And there's a lot more to it because it's also when you have, if you have 14 versus seven milliseconds, right. You can fit in another round trip. So we had to tune TCP to try to send as much data in every round trip, prewarm all the connections. And there was, there's a lot of things that compound from having these kinds of round trips, but in the grand scheme it was just like, well, we have to beat the latency of whatever we're up against.swyx: Which is like they, I mean, notion is a database company. They could have done this themselves. They, they do lots of database engineering themselves. How do you even get in the door? Like Yeah, just like talk through that kind of.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Last time I was in San Francisco, I was talking to one of the engineers actually, who, who was one of our champions, um, at, AT Notion.And they were, they were just trying to make sure that the, you know, per user cost matched the economics that they needed. You know, Uhhuh like, it's like the way I think about, it's like I have to earn a return on whatever the clouds charge me and then my customers have to earn a return on that. And it's like very simple, right?And so there has to be gross margin all the way up and that's how you build the product. And so then our customers have to make the right set of trade off the turbo Puffer makes, and if they're happy with that, that's great.swyx: Do you feel like you're competing with build internally versus buy or buy versus buy?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so, sorry, this was all to build up to your question. So one of the notion engineers told me that they'd sat and probably on a napkin, like drawn out like, why hasn't anyone built this? And then they saw terrible. It was like, well, it literally that. So, and I think AI has also changed the buy versus build equation in terms of, it's not really about can we build it, it's about do we have time to build it?I think they like, I think they felt like, okay, if this is a team that can do that and they, they feel enough like an extension of our team, well then we can go a lot faster, which would be very, very good for them. And I mean, they put us through the, through the test, right? Like we had some very, very long nights to to, to do that POC.And they were really our biggest, our second big customer off the cursor, which also was a lot of late nights. Right.swyx: Yeah. That, I mean, should we go into that story? The, the, the sort of Chris's story, like a lot, um, they credit you a lot for. Working very closely with them. So I just wanna hear, I've heard this, uh, story from Sole's point of view, but like, I'm curious what, what it looks like from your side.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I actually haven't heard it from Sole's point of view, so maybe you can now cross reference it. The way that I remember it was that, um, the day after we launched, which was just, you know, I'd worked the whole summer on, on the first version. Justine wasn't part of it yet. ‘cause I just, I didn't tell anyone that summer that I was working on this.I was just locked in on building it because it's very easy otherwise to confuse talking about something to actually doing it. And so I was just like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm just gonna do the thing. I launched it and at this point turbo puffer is like a rust binary running on a single eight core machine in a T Marks instance.And me deploying it was like looking at the request log and then like command seeing it or like control seeing it to just like, okay, there's no request. Let's upgrade the binary. Like it was like literally the, the, the, the scrappiest thing. You could imagine it was on purpose because just like at Shopify, we did that all the time.Like, we like move, like we ran things in tux all the time to begin with. Before something had like, at least the inkling of PMF, it was like, okay, is anyone gonna hear about this? Um, and one of the cursor co-founders Arvid reached out and he just, you know, the, the cursor team are like all I-O-I-I-M-O like, um, contenders, right?So they just speak in bullet points and, and facts. It was like this amazing email exchange just of, this is how many QPS we have, this is what we're paying, this is where we're going, blah, blah, blah. And so we're just conversing in bullet points. And I tried to get a call with them a few times, but they were, so, they were like really writing the PMF bowl here, just like late 2023.And one time Swally emails me at like five. What was it like 4:00 AM Pacific time saying like, Hey, are you open for a call now? And I'm on the East coast and I, it was like 7:00 AM I was like, yeah, great, sure, whatever. Um, and we just started talking and something. Then I didn't know anything about sales.It was something that just comp compelled me. I have to go see this team. Like, there's something here. So I, I went to San Francisco and I went to their office and the way that I remember it is that Postgres was down when I showed up at the office. Did SW tell you this? No. Okay. So Postgres was down and so it's like they were distracting with that.And I was trying my best to see if I could, if I could help in any way. Like I knew a little bit about databases back to tuning, auto vacuum. It was like, I think you have to tune out a vacuum. Um, and so we, we talked about that and then, um, that evening just talked about like what would it look like, what would it look like to work with us?And I just said. Look like we're all in, like we will just do what we'll do whatever, whatever you tell us, right? They migrated everything over the next like week or two, and we reduced their cost by 95%, which I think like kind of fixed their per user economics. Um, and it solved a lot of other things. And we were just, Justine, this is also when I asked Justine to come on as my co-founder, she was the best engineer, um, that I ever worked with at Shopify.She lived two blocks away and we were just, okay, we're just gonna get this done. Um, and we did, and so we helped them migrate and we just worked like hell over the next like month or two to make sure that we were never an issue. And that was, that was the cursor story. Yeah.swyx: And, and is code a different workload than normal text?I, I don't know. Is is it just text? Is it the same thing?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so cursor's workload is basically, they, um, they will embed the entire code base, right? So they, they will like chunk it up in whatever they would, they do. They have their own embedding model, um, which they've been public about. Um, and they find that on, on, on their evals.It. There's one of their evals where it's like a 25% improvement on a very particular workload. They have a bunch of blog posts about it. Um, I think it works best on larger code basis, but they've trained their own embedding model to do this. Um, and so you'll see it if you use the cursor agent, it will do searches.And they've also been public around, um, how they've, I think they post trained their model to be very good at semantic search as well. Um, and that's, that's how they use it. And so it's very good at, like, can you find me on the code that's similar to this, or code that does this? And just in, in this queries, they also use GR to supplement it.swyx: Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, of courseswyx: it's been a big topic of discussion like, is rag dead because gr you know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: and I mean like, I just, we, we see lots of demand from the coding company to ethicsswyx: search in every part. Yes.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Uh, we, we, we see demand. And so, I mean, I'm. I like case studies. I don't like, like just doing like thought pieces on this is where it's going.And like trying to be all macroeconomic about ai, that's has turned out to be a giant waste of time because no one can really predict any of this. So I just collect case studies and I mean, cursor has done a great job talking about what they're doing and I hope some of the other coding labs that use Turbo Puffer will do the same.Um, but it does seem to make a difference for particular queries. Um, I mean we can also do text, we can also do RegX, but I should also say that cursors like security posture into Tur Puffer is exceptional, right? They have their own embedding model, which makes it very difficult to reverse engineer. They obfuscate the file paths.They like you. It's very difficult to learn anything about a code base by looking at it. And the other thing they do too is that for their customers, they encrypt it with their encryption keys in turbo puffer's bucket. Um, so it's, it's, it's really, really well designed.swyx: And so this is like extra stuff they did to work with you because you are not part of Cursor.Exactly like, and this is just best practice when working in any database, not just you guys. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I think for me, like the, the, the learning is kind of like you, like all workloads are hybrid. Like, you know, uh, like you, you want the semantic, you want the text, you want the RegX, you want sql.I dunno. Um, but like, it's silly to like be all in on like one particularly query pattern.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think, like I really like the way that, um, um, that swally at cursor talks about it, which is, um, I'm gonna butcher it here. Um, and you know, I'm a, I'm a database scalability person. I'm not a, I, I dunno anything about training models other than, um, what the internet tells me and what.The way he describes is that this is just like cash compute, right? It's like you have a point in time where you're looking at some particular context and focused on some chunk and you say, this is the layer of the neural net at this point in time. That seems fundamentally really useful to do cash compute like that.And, um, how the value of that will change over time. I'm, I'm not sure, but there seems to be a lot of value in that.Alessio: Maybe talk a bit about the evolution of the workload, because even like search, like maybe two years ago it was like one search at the start of like an LLM query to build the context. Now you have a gentech search, however you wanna call it, where like the model is both writing and changing the code and it's searching it again later.Yeah. What are maybe some of the new types of workloads or like changes you've had to make to your architecture for it?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think you're right. When I think of rag, I think of, Hey, there's an 8,000 token, uh, context window and you better make it count. Um, and search was a way to do that now. Everything is moving towards the, just let the agent do its thing.Right? And so back to the thing before, right? The LLM is very good at reasoning with the data, and so we're just the tool call, right? And that's increasingly what we see our customers doing. Um, what we're seeing more demand from, from our customers now is to do a lot of concurrency, right? Like Notion does a ridiculous amount of queries in every round trip just because they can't.And I'm also now, when I use the cursor agent, I also see them doing more concurrency than I've ever seen before. So a bit similar to how we designed a database to drive as much concurrency in every round trip as possible. That's also what the agents are doing. So that's new. It means just an enormous amount of queries all at once to the dataset while it's warm in as few turns as possible.swyx: Can I clarify one thing on that?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes.swyx: Is it, are they batching multiple users or one user is driving multiple,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: one user driving multiple, one agent driving.swyx: It's parallel searching a bunch of things.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Exactly.swyx: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, the clinician also did, did this for the fast context thing, like eight parallel at once.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes.swyx: And, and like an interesting problem is, well, how do you make sure you have enough diversity so you're not making the the same request eight times?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: And I think like that's probably also where the hybrid comes in, where. That's another way to diversify. It's a completely different way to, to do the search.That's a big change, right? So before it was really just like one call and then, you know, the LLM took however many seconds to return, but now we just see an enormous amount of queries. So the, um, we just see more queries. So we've like tried to reduce query, we've reduced query pricing. Um, this is probably the first time actually I'm saying that, but the query pricing is being reduced, like five x.Um, and we'll probably try to reduce it even more to accommodate some of these workloads of just doing very large amounts of queries. Um, that's one thing that's changed. I think the right, the right ratio is still very high, right? Like there's still a, an enormous amount of rights per read, but we're starting probably to see that change if people really lean into this pattern.Alessio: Can we talk a little bit about the pricing? I'm curious, uh, because traditionally a database would charge on storage, but now you have the token generation that is so expensive, where like the actual. Value of like a good search query is like much higher because they're like saving inference time down the line.How do you structure that as like, what are people receptive to on the other side too?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. I, the, the turbo puffer pricing in the beginning was just very simple. The pricing on these on for search engines before Turbo Puffer was very server full, right? It was like, here's the vm, here's the per hour cost, right?Great. And I just sat down with like a piece of paper and said like, if Turbo Puffer was like really good, this is probably what it would cost with a little bit of margin. And that was the first pricing of Turbo Puffer. And I just like sat down and I was like, okay, like this is like probably the storage amp, but whenever on a piece of paper I, it was vibe pricing.It was very vibe price, and I got it wrong. Oh. Um, well I didn't get it wrong, but like Turbo Puffer wasn't at the first principle pricing, right? So when Cursor came on Turbo Puffer, it was like. Like, I didn't know any VCs. I didn't know, like I was just like, I don't know, I didn't know anything about raising money or anything like that.I just saw that my GCP bill was, was high, was a lot higher than the cursor bill. So Justine and I was just like, well, we have to optimize it. Um, and I mean, to the chagrin now of, of it, of, of the VCs, it now means that we're profitable because we've had so much pricing pressure in the beginning. Because it was running on my credit card and Justine and I had spent like, like tens of thousands of dollars on like compute bills and like spinning off the company and like very like, like bad Canadian lawyers and like things like to like get all of this done because we just like, we didn't know.Right. If you're like steeped in San Francisco, you're just like, you just know. Okay. Like you go out, raise a pre-seed round. I, I never heard a word pre-seed at this point in time.swyx: When you had Cursor, you had Notion you, you had no funding.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, with Cursor we had no funding. Yeah. Um, by the time we had Notion Locke was, Locke was here.Yeah. So it was really just, we vibe priced it 100% from first Principles, but it wasn't, it, it was not performing at first principles, so we just did everything we could to optimize it in the beginning for that, so that at least we could have like a 5% margin or something. So I wasn't freaking out because Cursor's bill was also going like this as they were growing.And so my liability and my credit limit was like actively like calling my bank. It was like, I need a bigger credit. Like it was, yeah. Anyway, that was the beginning. Yeah. But the pricing was, yeah, like storage rights and query. Right. And the, the pricing we have today is basically just that pricing with duct tape and spit to try to approach like, you know, like a, as a margin on the physical underlying hardware.And we're doing this year, you're gonna see more and more pricing changes from us. Yeah.swyx: And like is how much does stuff like VVC peering matter because you're working in AWS land where egress is charged and all that, you know.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: We probably don't like, we have like an enterprise plan that just has like a base fee because we haven't had time to figure out SKU pricing for all of this.Um, but I mean, yeah, you can run turbo puffer either in SaaS, right? That's what Cursor does. You can run it in a single tenant cluster. So it's just you. That's what Notion does. And then you can run it in, in, in BYOC where everything is inside the customer's VPC, that's what an for example, philanthropic does.swyx: What I'm hearing is that this is probably the best CRO job for somebody who can come in and,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I mean,swyx: help you with this.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, like Turbo Puffer hired, like, I don't know what, what number this was, but we had a full-time CFO as like the 12th hire or something at Turbo Puffer, um, I think I hear are a lot of comp.I don't know how they do it. Like they have a hundred employees and not a CFO. It's like having a CFO is like a runningswyx: business man. Like, you know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: it's so good. Yeah, like money Mike, like he just, you know, just handles the money and a lot of the business stuff and so he came in and just hopped with a lot of the operational side of the business.So like C-O-O-C-F-O, like somewhere in between.swyx: Just as quick mention of Lucky, just ‘cause I'm curious, I've met Lock and like, he's obviously a very good investor and now on physical intelligence, um, I call it generalist super angel, right? He invests in everything. Um, and I always wonder like, you know, is there something appealing about focusing on developer tooling, focusing on databases, going like, I've invested for 10 years in databases versus being like a lock where he can maybe like connect you to all the customers that you need.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: This is an excellent question. No, no one's asked me this. Um, why lockey? Because. There was a couple of people that we were talking to at the time and when we were raising, we were almost a little, we were like a bit distressed because one of our, one of our peers had just launched something that was very similar to Turbo Puffer.And someone just gave me the advice at the time of just choose the person where you just feel like you can just pick up the phone and not prepare anything. And just be completely honest, and I don't think I've said this publicly before, but I just called Lockey and was like local Lockie. Like if this doesn't have PMF by the end of the year, like we'll just like return all the money to you.But it's just like, I don't really, we, Justine and I don't wanna work on this unless it's really working. So we want to give it the best shot this year and like we're really gonna go for it. We're gonna hire a bunch of people and we're just gonna be honest with everyone. Like when I don't know how to play a game, I just play with open cards and.Lockey was the only person that didn't, that didn't freak out. He was like, I've never heard anyone say that before. As I said, I didn't even know what a seed or pre-seed round was like before, probably even at this time. So I was just like very honest with him. And I asked him like, Lockie, have you ever have, have you ever invested in database company?He was just like, no. And at the time I was like, am I dumb? Like, but I think there was something that just like really drew me to Lockie. He is so authentic, so honest, like, and there was something just like, I just felt like I could just play like, just say everything openly. And that was, that was, I think that that was like a perfect match at the time, and, and, and honestly still is.He was just like, okay, that's great. This is like the most honest, ridiculous thing I've ever heard anyone say to me. But like that, like that, whyswyx: is this ridiculous? Say competitor launch, this may not work out. It wasSimon Hørup Eskildsen: more just like. If this doesn't work out, I'm gonna close up shop by the end of the mo the year, right?Like it was, I don't know, maybe it's common. I, I don't know. He told me it was uncommon. I don't know. Um, that's why we chose him and he'd been phenomenal. The other people were talking at the, at the time were database experts. Like they, you know, knew a lot about databases and Locke didn't, this turned out to be a phenomenal asset.Right. I like Justine and I know a lot about databases. The people that we hire know a lot about databases. What we needed was just someone who didn't know a lot about databases, didn't pretend to know a lot about databases, and just wanted to help us with candidates and customers. And he did. Yeah. And I have a list, right, of the investors that I have a relationship with, and Lockey has just performed excellent in the number of sub bullets of what we can attribute back to him.Just absolutely incredible. And when people talk about like no ego and just the best thing for the founder, I like, I don't think that anyone, like even my lawyer is like, yeah, Lockey is like the most friendly person you will find.swyx: Okay. This is my most glow recommendation I've ever heard.Alessio: He deserves it.He's very special.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Amazing.Alessio: Since you mentioned candidates, maybe we can talk about team building, you know, like, especially in sf, it feels like it's just easier to start a company than to join a company. Uh, I'm curious your experience, especially not being n SF full-time and doing something that is maybe, you know, a very low level of detail and technical detail.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. So joining versus starting, I never thought that I would be a founder. I would start with it, like Turbo Puffer started as a blog post, and then it became a project and then sort of almost accidentally became a company. And now it feels like it's, it's like becoming a bigger company. That was never the intention.The intentions were very pure. It's just like, why hasn't anyone done this? And it's like, I wanna be the, like, I wanna be the first person to do it. I think some founders have this, like, I could never work for anyone else. I, I really don't feel that way. Like, it's just like, I wanna see this happen. And I wanna see it happen with some people that I really enjoy working with and I wanna have fun doing it and this, this, this has all felt very natural on that, on that sense.So it was never a like join versus versus versus found. It was just dis found me at the right moment.Alessio: Well I think there's an argument for, you should have joined Cursor, right? So I'm curious like how you evaluate it. Okay, I should actually go raise money and make this a company versus like, this is like a company that is like growing like crazy.It's like an interesting technical problem. I should just build it within Cursor and then they don't have to encrypt all this stuff. They don't have to obfuscate things. Like was that on your mind at all orSimon Hørup Eskildsen: before taking the, the small check from Lockie, I did have like a hard like look at myself in the mirror of like, okay, do I really want to do this?And because if I take the money, I really have to do it right. And so the way I almost think about it's like you kind of need to ha like you kind of need to be like fucked up enough to want to go all the way. And that was the conversation where I was like, okay, this is gonna be part of my life's journey to build this company and do it in the best way that I possibly can't.Because if I ask people to join me, ask people to get on the cap table, then I have an ultimate responsibility to give it everything. And I don't, I think some people, it doesn't occur to me that everyone takes it that seriously. And maybe I take it too seriously, I don't know. But that was like a very intentional moment.And so then it was very clear like, okay, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna give it everything.Alessio: A lot of people don't take it this seriously. But,swyx: uh, let's talk about, you have this concept of the P 99 engineer. Uh, people are 10 x saying, everyone's saying, you know, uh, maybe engineers are out of a job. I don't know.But you definitely see a P 99 engineer, and I just want you to talk about it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so the P 99 engineer was just a term that we started using internally to talk about candidates and talk about how we wanted to build the company. And you know, like everyone else is, like we want a talent dense company.And I think that's almost become trite at this point. What I credit the cursor founders a lot with is that they just arrived there from first principles of like, we just need a talent dense, um, talent dense team. And I think I've seen some teams that weren't talent dense and like seemed a counterfactual run, which if you've run in been in a large company, you will just see that like it's just logically will happen at a large company.Um, and so that was super important to me and Justine and it's very difficult to maintain. And so we just needed, we needed wording for it. And so I have a document called Traits of the P 99 Engineer, and it's a bullet point list. And I look at that list after every single interview that I do, and in every single recap that we do and every recap we end with.End with, um, some version of I'm gonna reject this candidate completely regardless of what the discourse was, because I wanna see people fight for this person because the default should not be, we're gonna hire this person. The default should be, we're definitely not hiring this person. And you know, if everyone was like, ah, maybe throw a punch, then this is not the right.swyx: Do, do you operate, like if there's one cha there must have at least one champion who's like, yes, I will put my career on, on, on the line for this. You know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think career on the line,swyx: maybe a chair, butSimon Hørup Eskildsen: yeah. You know, like, um, I would say so someone needs to like, have both fists up and be like, I'd fight.Right? Yeah. Yeah. And if one person said, then, okay, let's do it. Right?swyx: Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um. It doesn't have to be absolutely everyone. Right? And like the interviews are always the sign that you're checking for different attributes. And if someone is like knocking it outta the park in every single attribute, that's, that's fairly rare.Um, but that's really important. And so the traits of the P 99 engineer, there's lots of them. There's also the traits of the p like triple nine engineer and the quadruple nine engineer. This is like, it's a long list.swyx: Okay.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, I'll give you some samples, right. Of what we, what we look for. I think that the P 99 engineer has some history of having bent, like their trajectory or something to their will.Right? Some moment where it was just, they just, you know, made the computer do what it needed to do. There's something like that, and it will, it will occur to have them at some point in their career. And, uh. Hopefully multiple times. Right.swyx: Gimme an example of one of your engineers that like,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I'll give an eng.Uh, so we, we, we launched this thing called A and NV three. Um, we could, we're also, we're working on V four and V five right now, but a and NV three can search a hundred billion vectors with a P 50 of around 40 milliseconds and a p 99 of 200 milliseconds. Um, maybe other people have done this, I'm sure Google and others have done this, but, uh, we haven't seen anyone, um, at least not in like a public consumable SaaS that can do this.And that was an engineer, the chief architect of Turbo Puffer, Nathan, um, who more or less just bent this, the software was not capable of this and he just made it capable for a very particular workload in like a, you know, six to eight week period with the help of a lot of the team. Right. It's been, been, there's numerous of examples of that, like at, at turbo puff, but that's like really bending the software and X 86 to your will.It was incredible to watch. Um. You wanna see some moments like that?swyx: Isn't that triple nine?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, I think Nathan, what's calledAlessio: group nine, that was only nine. I feel like this is too high forSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Nathan. Nathan is, uh, Nathan is like, yeah, there's a lot of nines. Okay. After that p So I think that's one trait. I think another trait is that, uh, the P 99 spends a lot of time looking at maps.Generally it's their preferred ux. They just love looking at maps. You ever seen someone who just like, sits on their phone and just like, scrolls around on a map? Or did you not look at maps A lot? You guys don't look atswyx: maps? I guess I'm not feeling there. I don't know, butSimon Hørup Eskildsen: you just dis What about trains?Do you like trains?swyx: Uh, I mean they, not enough. Okay. This is just like weapon nice. Autism is what I call it. Like, like,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: um, I love looking at maps, like, it's like my preferred UX and just like I, you know, I likeswyx: lotsAlessio: of, of like random places, soswyx: like,youswyx: know.Alessio: Yes. Okay. There you go. So instead of like random places, like how do you explore the maps?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: No, it's, it's just a joke.swyx: It's autism laugh. It's like you are just obsessed by something and you like studying a thing.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: The origin of this was that at some point I read an interview with some IOI gold medalistswyx: Uhhuh,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: and it's like, what do you do in your spare time? I was just like, I like looking at maps.I was like, I feel so seen. Like, I just like love, like swirling out. I was like, oh, Canada is so big. Where's Baffin Island? I don't know. I love it. Yeah. Um, anyway, so the traits of P 99, P 99 is obsessive, right? Like, there's just like, you'll, you'll find traits of that we do an interview at, at, at, at turbo puffer or like multiple interviews that just try to screen for some of these things.Um, so. There's lots of others, but these are the kinds of traits that we look for.swyx: I'll tell you, uh, some people listen for like some of my dere stuff. Uh, I do think about derel as maps. Um, you draw a map for people, uh, maps show you the, uh, what is commonly agreed to be the geographical features of what a boundary is.And it shows also shows you what is not doing. And I, I think a lot of like developer tools, companies try to tell you they can do everything, but like, let's, let's be real. Like you, your, your three landmarks are here, everyone comes here, then here, then here, and you draw a map and, and then you draw a journey through the map.And like that. To me, that's what developer relations looks like. So I do think about things that way.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think the P 99 thinks in offs, right? The P 99 is very clear about, you know, hey, turbo puffer, you can't run a high transaction workload on turbo puffer, right? It's like the right latency is a hundred milliseconds.That's a clear trade off. I think the P 99 is very good at articulating the trade offs in every decision. Um. Which is exactly what the map is in your case, right?swyx: Uh, yeah, yeah. My, my, my world. My world.Alessio: How, how do you reconcile some of these things when you're saying you bend the will the computer versus like the trade

The newly announced Macintosh Neo has met with surprising  fervor from Apple fans and critics alike. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Marty Jencius, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Jim Rea, Mark Fuccio, Web Bixby, and Eric Bolden discuss the impact of the low-cost MacBook, and why some panelists ordered one (or more). The highlights include its affordability, potential uses in education, travel, and everyday computing. The group also examines early reactions, speculation about performance, color choices, and how the Neo could reshape the relationship between Macs and mid-range iPads.  This edition of MacVoices is sponsored by Squarespace. Go to Squarespace.com/macvoices and click "enter an offer code" under the pricing and put in the code "macvoices" to receive a 10% discount. Squarespace: Everything you need to create an exceptional website. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Evaluating the appeal of the Macintosh Neo00:08 Sponsor message: Squarespace00:27 Panel introductions and setup05:04 The surprise announcement of the Macintosh Neo05:47 Who ordered a Neo and why07:04 Education and affordability potential08:03 Replacing iPads with a Neo12:37 Eric's perspective and Vision Pro use case15:04 Early demand and availability discussion17:47 Price, colors, and appeal of the Neo20:32 Broader market implications for Apple22:23 Popular color choices and buying trends24:58 Color design and Apple's product strategy Links: MacBook Neo Availability Continues to Tighten Ahead of Launchhttps://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/09/macbook-neo-delivery-estimates/ Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Mark Fuccio is actively involved in high tech startup companies, both as a principle at piqsure.com, or as a marketing advisor through his consulting practice Tactics Sells High Tech, Inc. Mark was a proud investor in Microsoft from the mid-1990's selling in mid 2000, and hopes one day that MSFT will be again an attractive investment. You can contact Mark through Twitter, LinkedIn, or on Mastodon. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

The newly announced Macintosh Neo has met with surprising  fervor from Apple fans and critics alike. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Marty Jencius, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Jim Rea, Mark Fuccio, Web Bixby, and Eric Bolden discuss the impact of the low-cost MacBook, and why some panelists ordered one (or more). The highlights include its affordability, potential uses in education, travel, and everyday computing. The group also examines early reactions, speculation about performance, color choices, and how the Neo could reshape the relationship between Macs and mid-range iPads.  This edition of MacVoices is sponsored by Squarespace. Go to Squarespace.com/macvoices and click "enter an offer code" under the pricing and put in the code "macvoices" to receive a 10% discount. Squarespace: Everything you need to create an exceptional website. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Evaluating the appeal of the Macintosh Neo 00:08 Sponsor message: Squarespace 00:27 Panel introductions and setup 05:04 The surprise announcement of the Macintosh Neo 05:47 Who ordered a Neo and why 07:04 Education and affordability potential 08:03 Replacing iPads with a Neo 12:37 Eric's perspective and Vision Pro use case 15:04 Early demand and availability discussion 17:47 Price, colors, and appeal of the Neo 20:32 Broader market implications for Apple 22:23 Popular color choices and buying trends 24:58 Color design and Apple's product strategy Links: MacBook Neo Availability Continues to Tighten Ahead of Launch https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/09/macbook-neo-delivery-estimates/ Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Mark Fuccio is actively involved in high tech startup companies, both as a principle at piqsure.com, or as a marketing advisor through his consulting practice Tactics Sells High Tech, Inc. Mark was a proud investor in Microsoft from the mid-1990's selling in mid 2000, and hopes one day that MSFT will be again an attractive investment. You can contact Mark through Twitter, LinkedIn, or on Mastodon. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

A discussion of privacy, ethics, and technology was prompted after reports that Google recovered Nest camera footage believed to be deleted. Chuck Joiner, Marty Jencius, Jim Rea, Eric Bolden, Jeff Gamet, and Web Bixby review how cloud data is actually erased, the role of backups and mirrored servers, and the difficult balance between privacy promises and aiding law enforcement. The conversation expands into broader concerns about surveillance technology, online data permanence, and how companies should handle sensitive information in critical situations.  This edition of MacVoices is sponsored by Squarespace. Go to Squarespace.com/macvoices and click "enter an offer code" under the pricing and put in the code "macvoices" to receive a 10% discount. Squarespace: Everything you need to create an exceptional website. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Introduction to surveillance and AI topics00:24 Recovered Nest camera footage raises privacy questions01:08 How deleted video was reportedly recovered02:05 Ethical concerns about surveillance cameras02:22 Corporate dilemma: privacy vs public safety03:13 Questions about data retention policies04:25 How cloud storage distributes and retains data05:31 Monetization and retention of surveillance footage06:22 Guest departure and show housekeeping07:23 How “deleted” cloud data actually works08:36 Backups, mirrored servers, and forensic recovery09:59 Internal decision-making around recovered data11:08 Subscription models and video retention limits12:45 Law enforcement implications and future requests13:41 Encryption and control of stored video15:52 The permanence of data on the internet17:09 Lessons about sharing data online18:32 Sponsor message and website strategy discussion20:10 OpenClaw creator joins OpenAI21:10 Impact on the AI development race23:01 Limits and risks of current AI tools24:25 Security concerns with AI assistants25:44 The early stage of modern AI development27:14 Why OpenAI may be the safer home for the project28:52 AI interacting directly with operating systems30:05 The road toward intelligent digital assistants31:40 Closing reflections on technology ethics and change Links: Google recovers "deleted" Nest video in high-profile abduction casehttps://arstechnica.com/google/2026/02/google-recovers-deleted-nest-video-in-high-profile-abduction-case/ Peter Steinberger joins OpenAIhttps://thenextweb.com/news/peter-steinberger-joins-openai Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

What happens to dairy markets when one of the world's busiest shipping lanes suddenly gets disrupted? With the Strait of Hormuz under pressure and trade routes across the Persian Gulf in question, exporters are scrambling to figure out how to move product. What does all this mean for global dairy demand? In this episode of The Milk Check, host Ted Jacoby III sits down with the Jacoby trading team to talk through what happens when geopolitics collides with global dairy trade. We dig into: How exporters may reroute product through alternate ports like Jeddah Why trade flows could shift between the U.S., Europe, Oceania and Southeast Asia How energy prices and freight disruptions could ripple through dairy markets Whether this disruption boosts demand in the short term or destroys it if it drags on Find out how one shipping lane could reshape the global dairy trade. Listen to The Milk Check episode 95: The Strait of Hormuz: What the Iran Conflict Means for Dairy Trade. Click below to listen or find us on Spotify, YouTube,  Apple Podcasts, and Amazon Music. Got questions? We'd love to hear them. Submit below, and we might answer it on the show. Ask The Milk Check Ted Jacoby III: [00:00:00] Coming up on The Milk Check. The Strait of Hormuz is closed. The port of Dammam is closed. Joe Maixner: There’s definitely product that’s stuck, can’t get to its destination. Ted Jacoby III: Welcome to the Milk Check from T.C. Jacoby and Company, your complete guide to dairy markets, from the milking parlor to the supermarket shelf. I’m Ted Jacoby. Let’s dive in. Today we’re gonna talk about what’s going on in the dairy market, specifically global trade. We’re recording this on March 6th, 2026, and seven days ago the U.S. bombed Iran.  As we [00:00:30] speak, the Strait of Hormuz is closed. The port of Dammam is closed, and trade flows are getting rearranged as we speak. Today with me, we have Joe Maixner, head of our butter trading book. We have Josh White, we have Diego Carvallo, and we have Mike Brown. And we thought it would be appropriate to discuss what’s going on in the Middle East, specifically how it’s affecting the dairy industry, and what its short-term and long-term effects will be on dairy demand. We’re gonna start with Joe. Joe, what are you hearing out there right [00:01:00] now? Joe Maixner: There’s definitely product that’s stuck, can’t get to its destination. Both going into Port of Dammam and other Middle Eastern ports for that matter. With butter’s moves over the past year, the Middle East market had been probably the largest growth opportunity for us in global exports for butter. Fortunately, this all happened after the rush for Ramadan to get everything in. So, I would say that it’s not as bad as it could be right now, but there is certainly product that’s stuck on the water looking for [00:01:30] alternative options to get to land. And there’s quite a bit of product that still is waiting to leave the U.S. that we’re not quite sure if and when it will actually leave. A lot of it’s still up in the air. Nobody really knows, what to do yet. I think it’s still too early to tell. Nothing’s been canceled per se, but the longer that this drags on, we’re certainly going to have some effects from it. Ted Jacoby III: There’s a lot of talk that maybe this war is gonna be a five to six week war. If the Strait of Hormuz is closed for five to six weeks, as is the [00:02:00] Port of Dammam, is that enough to cancel orders? Is that too long? Joe Maixner: I would say it should probably cancel some orders. I wouldn’t say it would cancel everything, but they’re gonna have to get product at some point from somewhere, They can’t completely stop. People are gonna have to eat. Production will still have to continue, and they’re gonna have to source product from somebody. And if we can’t get it there, they’ll find it from somewhere else. Ted Jacoby III: I’m hearing that one of the things that they’re exploring is shipping into Jeddah, which if you look at a map of the Middle East, Dammam is in the Persian Gulf on [00:02:30] one side of the peninsula. Jeddah is basically on the exact opposite side of Peninsula on the Red Sea. So they’re talking about shipping into Jeddah and then shipping it across the land to where it might need to go. The first thing that occurs to me is Dammam, I believe, is a bigger port than Jeddah. And so if you take all those container ships going into Dammam and send them to Jeddah instead, there’s not gonna be enough room to unload ’em all. And so, at the very least, the traffic’s gonna be pretty horrific. Are you guys hearing people working on that too? Joe Maixner: Yes, they’re looking at alternate ports of [00:03:00] entry and moving the product around. Jeddah is one. Casablanca is one. Going into Egypt is one. There are options. All of ’em are more expensive and it’s just gonna depend on how desperate the end user is to get the product. Josh White: We’ve got some experience dealing with trade disruptions over the past decade, and we tend to see the playbook similarly each time. And then when we talk about what’s specifically happened in our markets now, I think We can watch for some warning signs. Number one is in these type of situations, we start worrying about trade [00:03:30] flows, energy, freight, congestion, those type of things, all impacting markets and trade. Additionally, when we think about this conflict, there’s maybe three different scenarios to talk about. It’s very intense right now. Does that intensity continue for a very long time? What does that mean for our trade? It’s very intense right now for, but after, four to six weeks, maybe it continues on, but it’s more stable or consistent and the world learns how to trade around it. And then the third one is the one you [00:04:00] outlined earlier, which I think is a bit optimistic, usually these things don’t just go away that quickly, is that it’s over in a short amount of time. That’s the easiest one for us to project. That just creates a short-term concentration pent-up demand, pent-up shipments, and we just gotta work our way through that bubble. I think the middle one’s more likely. Not because I’m an expert on these things, but we’ve seen what happened in different conflicts in different situations. The middle one being it’s intense for a bit, then it becomes more consistent and normalized, and we just learn how to work [00:04:30] around it. What does that mean? And to me, that redirects trade flows. For instance, the U.S. has been very competitive in the Middle East for butter and cheese. It’s not the first time we’ve been competitive. We were competitive 15 years ago or so at a pretty good rate where we were an net exporter of butterfat, cheese I think we’ve been fairly consistent throughout, but it takes time to get there. Our biggest obstacle in doing business with that market versus Europe as a competitor, is the transit time. We inflate the freight rates, we increase transit [00:05:00] time, there’s concern of access to supply because of turbulence or stability, our price could be fine, and we could still miss some business because you have to buy now or you’ve gotta get product in now, or you just don’t have time to wait the, what, six weeks from order at minimum, probably more like a quarter, oftentimes, to get the product. That’s maybe our biggest obstacle right now is redirected trade lanes, not price. Joe Maixner: All of these trade disruptions create opportunity elsewhere. If our price comes off, [00:05:30] as it has, butter shot up earlier this week, it’s come back off here at the end of the week. It’s created opportunity for trade into other export markets. Where one door closes, another opens. Ted Jacoby III: How do you think those trade flows change? What comes, what goes, what are the changes that you think will happen? Let’s assume that the Persian Gulf is off limits for two or three months. What does that mean for dairy? Josh White: Lost demand, if it’s that long.  That’s lost demand. Now if we assume that we’re able to redirect product to [00:06:00] maintain the same demand, you’re gonna have trade lanes shift, right? What are the options? Ted Jacoby III: Let’s articulate this a little bit more for our listeners. When we’re talking about trade lanes shifting, right now there’s product on the water trying to head there that can’t. What’s gonna happen to those ships? That’s one. Two, there’s product that was sitting in the port about ready to ship. I think there were a lot of calls this week. I think we know of quite a few calls this week where they basically said, “Let’s sit on it. Let’s wait for this all to calm down before we actually ship it.” And three, [00:06:30] there’s product that maybe was scheduled to ship in a month or two. I think it’s fair to say, people probably have to figure out immediately what are they gonna do with the product that’s on the water right now. And I think the other two, they may be able to give it a little bit of time, decide whether or not they’re gonna cancel any orders and redirect it. Diego, the product that’s on the water right now, what do you expect happens to it? Diego Carvallo: Ted, I’ve been internally debating this for a while and even with the team. I think a few things are happening, but I don’t know which one has a bigger magnitude. Supply chains used to be very thin [00:07:00] for skim milk powder for the past year or two years. They are gonna have to build more inventory for those supply chains because product might take 60 days instead of 30 days to ship it. Product is gonna get stuck at the port of entry, port of shipment, in transit, et cetera. So, I think that bumps up demand artificially. Yeah. But there’s more product that’s gonna be stuck in the supply chain. That’s the first thing that comes to mind short-term, if this doesn’t continue to escalate. But if things continue to [00:07:30] escalate, and three weeks from now or a month from now, we’re still not being able to ship product to those destinations, product is gonna start backing up at ports of loading, right? So we’re gonna start hearing from the California manufacturers that they have a 100, 200 loads at port, and that prospects are not great for shipping, and that we should find new homes for that, right? I think if this gets solved the short-term, it’s positive for demand. It’s bullish market, but if it goes more long-term, you start killing demand, and you start needing to [00:08:00] find homes for additional product. But I know that everybody, at least on our team, has different takes on the whole situation. Ted Jacoby III: I would agree with that. I tend to lean to the side that, politically, the Trump administration can’t afford for this to go on too long, and the longer the strait is closed, the more political pressure they’re gonna have to resolve things. It’s realistic to consider that there’s a possibility that this thing goes on for a really long time, and that strait is closed for a really long time. Diego Carvallo: The second topic that I think we should talk a little bit about is what is a [00:08:30] psychological implication that this has on buyers? For example, on Chinese buyers who depend on products that go through that canal. That’s why I lean towards supply chains are gonna have to increase the amount of product they have, and end users are gonna change a little bit their procurement practices to increase their stocks. Yeah. Josh White: That happened post COVID, right? And didn’t last very long. Ted Jacoby III: I’d say it lasted two years. Josh White: But my point wasn’t that two years wasn’t a long time. It [00:09:00] was more of: they reverted back to the just-in-time model once things stabilized. Ted Jacoby III: Yes. That is a good point. I do agree with that. But you know what, even though they reverted back to the just-in-time model, two and a half months ago, prices were low enough that I think there were people trying to rebuild their stocks because they felt that prices were low enough to do that. I don’t know if they actually succeeded. My gut, based on what we’re hearing from customers right now, is they didn’t, but there was certainly a willingness to build back inventory levels if the price was right. In the [00:09:30] meantime, we’re dealing with disrupted trade flows. And so my second question for you guys is, we talk about disrupted trade flows, but let’s put some examples under that so our listeners understand what we’re talking about. How will these trade lanes shift? Where will product flows change? Will we see maybe more U.S. product going into Southeast Asia, more European product going into the Middle East, because perhaps they can put it on a truck and ship it through Istanbul by rail or by truck all the way there? I don’t know. Josh White: Yeah, I [00:10:00] think that’s a super good point, and it goes into what Diego said, which I don’t think is limited to nonfat, by the way, or milk powders. I think customers need to buy, and are used to getting what they need quite easily, and they’ve run their structural days in inventory down quite a bit to where that’s going to require people to buy from where they can get it quickly. This disruption has served as a bit of a catalyst to something I think was already materializing or happening. And now if you inflate freight rates a little bit more, that’s only gonna make it that [00:10:30] much more pronounced: that you need to buy from who’s close. New Zealand’s having a good back shoulder of their season, too, and I believe that there’s quite a bit of New Zealand product that is on its way or destined to go to the Middle East and North Africa. So when we think about what happens, I think everyone goes back to their closest trade partner. That takes the Oceana product to Asia. It takes the U.S. product, obviously, to Mexico. There’s at least some risk that European product was gonna come to Mexico. This is making that more difficult, I imagine, as [00:11:00] well. And I guess they’re gonna have to problem solve if that demand holds under the scenario we talked about earlier: that Europe’s got a lot of product right now. There’s a lot of milk, and they’re making a lot of everything. And thus far, it’s been okay because exports have been reported to be good. Maybe we’re talking about how this impacts the Americans, but I imagine that the impact might be a little bit more extreme for the Europeans. There’s another impact in there that I think Diego touched on. When you have commitments for product [00:11:30] and that product takes longer to get to you, and you’re running your supply chain thin, you reach out then and buy other product at a higher price, often, to fill your immediate demand. And once everything stabilizes, you actually are structurally oversupplied. We experienced that within recent history. Ted Jacoby III: Oh, absolutely. Josh White: And so that creates that air pocket in demand that will eventually arrive. We just don’t know when. Ted Jacoby III: What I imagine is, those boats that are on the water that were heading to Dammam when all this [00:12:00] started, they’re either parked right now, waiting to see if everything clears up, or they’re getting themselves rescheduled into Jeddah to try and figure out how to get there another way.  I would assume the product that hadn’t been loaded onto a ship yet is backing up at the port for a little while. How long do you think it takes? How long do we need to be watching this conflict continue to go on, watching the Strait of Hormuz continue to be closed, how long will it take before do you think they’ll start selling that product elsewhere? Canceling contracts and selling it elsewhere? A [00:12:30] month, two months? Because my gut tells me that’s when you really start seeing the market shift around. Right now, everybody’s just in a waiting period. Right now everybody’s just wondering if this thing’s gonna last a long time or a short time, and they don’t wanna overreact just for everything to clear up in the next week or two, even if the possibility is low. Josh White: Nonfat futures are inverted, so I would imagine, not very long at all, but I don’t think nonfat is the most impacted product here.  The curve on the butter futures has really flattened out as well. There’s not a long time window there either if we don’t put [00:13:00] a decent carry back in the market. Ted Jacoby III: So the market is already pricing in the possibility of this going on a long time, but the cash markets haven’t really fallen yet because there’s still hope. Maybe that’s a good way to put it. Josh White: It’s only been a week, one business week. That’s a big conclusion that our team had, earlier today, is that we came in Monday, following the announcement, and we’re like, okay, what happened to dairy? And the reality is everyone’s trying to figure it out and it’s gonna take some time. So I don’t think we’ve seen the reaction or response to the [00:13:30] situation actually materialize yet. Ted Jacoby III: Do you think that the question everybody should be asking is how long is it gonna take for the Strait of Hormuz to open? Joe Maixner: That’s a big caveat in this whole situation, right? Once that opens and trade flows resume, that clears a lot of things up. Regardless, it’s gonna take time to clear up, right? Because you’re gonna have a backlog, but the sooner that reopens, the sooner things pseudo get back to normal. Mike Brown (2): So much energy flows out to that strait to the rest of the world, particularly to Asia that it could affect incomes effect ability to [00:14:00] purchase products as well. It isn’t just bringing things in, it’s how they get the oil out. Question for Diego, Iran certainly makes some SMP. Do you think that has any impact at all? Diego Carvallo: That’s a really good point you’re bringing up, Mike. Iran had for the past five years ramped up their SMP experts significantly, so I believe, if I’m not wrong, in 2025, they exported something like 120,000 metric tons of skim milk powder. It’s obviously not [00:14:30] one of the biggest exporters in the world, but it’s a significant exporter. The most important takeaway is that they would supply those markets that are being affected by these interruptions the most. It’s not only that region has fewer access to European and American and even New Zealand sources, but also one of their main providers has an active block on food exports as of right now. Both things tell me it’s gonna be harder for demand to [00:15:00] get access to the product. If it extends this issue in time, this is definitely gonna kill demand. Ted Jacoby III: Let’s talk this through. The longer this goes on, what are the countries that are really gonna start seeing drops in demand because their revenue is dropping. Obviously Iran, I think you gotta include Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE. Joe Maixner: Yep. Ted Jacoby III: I think China, too, because they don’t have the access to energy. And maybe some of the other major importers of Middle East oil. Now, some of it will switch, probably go [00:15:30] outta Jeddah, but I don’t think there’s a lot of oil exports leaving Jeddah. I think it’s all in the Gulf. Joe Maixner: What does it do for European product though, given the fact that this is going to cause a spike in natural gas pricing. This is gonna cause a spike in all energy pricing.  When the whole Ukraine situation escalated and Europe lost access to gas, it would cost something like $500 per metric ton just to dry the product because of [00:16:00] the increased cost of gas. That put a lot of pressure onto the skim milk concentrate, and it gave a lot of support to skim milk powder. Diego Carvallo: I think something similar is gonna happen in the coming weeks because we all heard the news about if I’m not wrong, it was Qatar that just shut down the world’s biggest LNG plant. And it takes, I believe it’s 40 days for it to be back online at full operations. It’s not a one or two day interruption. It’s a [00:16:30] substantial interruption in the energy supply at a worldwide level. Ted Jacoby III: The one big difference between when we’ve seen gas prices spike in the past, and this time is in the past, when energy prices spiked, demand in the Middle East would actually go up because they’d have more revenue and more income. They don’t this time around because it’s spiking because they can’t be the exporters and make those sales. I think that’s important to take into account. You’ve got a scenario where if this goes [00:17:00] on long enough, I think there’s some real negative effects on demand that we’ve gotta start coming to terms with, I don’t think that matters if everything opens up within the next two to four weeks. We’ll see if that happens. Mike Brown (2): Generally, this administration has responded to economic pressure. We see what’s happening in the stock market and we see what’s happening with energy costs, they’re gonna be rethinking hard on how long they want this thing to stretch out, regardless of what maybe some of our partners would like it to be. There’s gonna be some strong economic pressure internally. Even the Senate, who voted to support [00:17:30] continuing the fighting in Iran did say, we’re good for now, but we’ll revisit this if we need to.  That pressure by the day is gonna keep going up. Ted Jacoby III: I’m a hundred percent in agreement with you, Mike, and that’s why my hunch is you’re not gonna see the strait shutdown for an extended period of time. But we don’t know. We’ll have to wait and see. Hey, thanks guys. That was a great discussion today. It remains to be seen how this plays out. This is something that absolutely bears watching because it clearly is going to have some effect on dairy demand. We will see. [00:18:00]

How do you run an offsite that actually changes performance — not just conversations? In this episode, Travis Timmons and Kelly Allan share with Andrew Stotz what happened during the Fitness Matters off-site. They discuss how a Deming-inspired approach helped their team tackle a critical business aim, align around system improvement, and turn employee engagement into measurable competitive advantage. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.5 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we dive deeper into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today I'm continuing my discussion with Travis Timmons, who is the founder and owner of Fitness Matters, an Ohio based practice specializing in the integration of physical therapy and personalized wellness. For 13 years, he's built his business on Dr. Deming's teaching. His hope is simple. The more companies that bring joy to work through Deming's principles, the more likely his kids will one day work at one of those companies. And we also have a special guest, Kelly Allan, who is a long term practitioner of the teachings of Dr. Deming. And he's also been instrumental in bringing the teachings of Dr. Deming to Travis and Fitness Matters, and particularly to this offsite. So the topic for today is how a Deming style offsite can strengthen your company's competitive advantage. Travis, take it away.   0:01:01.4 Travis Timmons: Hey Andrew, thanks again for having us and super excited to share with Kelly and your audience how our offsite went a couple of weeks ago. The short answer, kind of the upfront, is it was amazing. We had fun, number one, which is always important, but engagement from the team was through the roof. For four and a half hours straight. We worked on the work together and had Kelly there to make sure we were appropriately following Dr. Deming's teachings. Had Kelly there to facilitate and a couple of fun things we did. One was the red bead experiment, which I'm sure we'll talk about as we go through the conversation here. The short answer is I know in the last podcast we talked about the preparation that Kelly worked with myself and our leadership team on in preparing for a Deming focused and led offsite. We did that and it was just amazing. What were your thoughts, Kelly?   0:02:06.4 Andrew Stotz: I'm curious, Kelly, as an outsider helping them, observing, what are your observations of how it went?   0:02:14.2 Kelly Allan: I think there was just incredible energy and interest in figuring out some of the challenges ahead for the company. People came in well prepared and it showed. The interactions in the breakout groups, interactions in the full groups. Often when you're in a full group of 60, 70 people, folks are often, especially new folks, and the company's been growing and adding new people, new folks are often somewhat hesitant to speak up. But the culture of the people in that room, the culture of the organization is bring it on, let's have a conversation, let's hear what people have to say. Let's share theories, let's get down and debate and wrestle with some of these things that are not easy. There's no low hanging fruit here. It's complex stuff in a complex and highly competitive industry.   0:03:28.9 Travis Timmons: Some of the feedback we received, I think I shared last time, Andrew. As Kelly said, we've hired several new team members and they've all shared with me just a breath of fresh air from where they came from before. The power of this offsite with it being focused on some of the core teachings of Dr. Deming allowed them to see how is this different? They know they like it, they know the culture is different. They know they can provide care the way they want to. They know they can have a voice, have an impact on the system. But they didn't really know why they just liked it. Having a Deming focused offsite to explain a little bit, you can't fully explain Dr. Deming in four and a half hours, but we covered quite a bit. Make the system visible, operational definitions. What are a couple other ones with the red bead, Kelly? We did some tampering.   0:04:28.8 Kelly Allan: Making sure that we're not being confused by visible numbers alone. That what's important is how we work on the system so that we're not doing special efforts all the time to get great results. It's built into how we do things.   0:04:43.8 Travis Timmons: To Kelly's point, part of why our team, for four and a half hours we had over 50 people all in, sharing thoughts without hesitation because one of the things we talk about in the very beginning of the meeting, one of Dr. Deming's core philosophies, if that's the right way to put it, Kelly, correct me if I'm off base here, but 96% of issues within an organization are system issues, not people issues. When you put that out there, we're here to talk about the system and improve it and make it visible. We're talking about problems with systems and processes, not people. Then the gloves are off and let's dive in and we're gonna say whatever's on our mind and there's no drama, there's no feeling of any backstabbing or throwing under the bus. We just get to work on making the system work better for everybody. That's where it's fun and fast.   0:05:41.9 Andrew Stotz: What I'm hearing is that Dr. Deming, my favorite quote is "people are entitled to joy in work." And part of the key to joy in work is contributing. People want to contribute in life. I love that word because I think everybody wants to feel like they're contributing to a mission, to an aim, to a goal, to a team. And one of the biggest problems we have these days is siloing off people and getting them focused on this little area and missing the whole bigger picture. And so to some extent, you've proven through what you've done that people really do want to contribute. Throughout this discussion, what we're gonna be talking about is this concept of Deming style offsite. And I'm gonna push back at times to try to make sure that we're clear on what's a Deming style offsite. Because it's not to say that Dr. Deming said this is how you do an offsite. But what we're talking about is your interpretations of how do we apply this thinking to this particular meeting style and offsite and ensure that we're true to that.   0:06:56.6 Andrew Stotz: One of the first questions I would discuss is just the idea that maybe you just had a really open, caring environment. And so is that Deming or was that just that? Or maybe you did a lot of prep. You guys have done a tremendous amount of prep. That's what I was impressed about in our prior discussions. Maybe you prepped, maybe you focused on the one thing. Those types of things is what could go through people's minds. Why is it that you're calling this a Deming styled offsite?   0:07:34.9 Kelly Allan: Well, I think in part it starts with Deming's teachings and continued Deming's teachings. I think it might be useful to start with the aim, to have Travis talk about the time that he spent researching and thinking and what's going on in the industry. And even though we can talk later about their industry leading statistics and data and recognition etc, it's off the charts. It starts with the aim. And Dr. Deming said let's be focused on the aim. And so there are a couple, Travis, you wanna just talk about the content aim and then we can talk about even a more cultural Deming cultural aim.   0:08:21.1 Travis Timmons: That was one of my early learnings years ago, Andrew, was the difference of an aim versus a goal. And so from the perspective of this offsite through the Dr. Deming lens, our aim as an organization is to maintain one to one care because we believe that results in optimal outcomes. And it's very rare in our industry to have one to one care. Part of how we do that is we have to be industry leading in everything we do. And the thing that we are industry leading in, but I feel it was the one thing that we could improve upon was our arrival rate. Patients get better if they show up, team members are happy, they don't want holes on their schedules. Referring physicians are happy. Everybody wins. So that aim of a higher arrival rate was our aim of this offsite and conversation.   0:09:17.6 Andrew Stotz: Can you back up just for a second and define arrival rate for those that didn't listen to prior discussions on it?   0:09:23.9 Travis Timmons: Sure. Arrival rate is a visit we have on the calendar. Do they show up or do they cancel? And part of what we worked on and a little bit of an aside here is operational definition of what's a cancellation on our schedule to make sure we're measuring what we want to measure. A funny aside, competitors, we hired several new team members came from other organizations and they tout an arrival rate that is high, like 92% arrival rate. Right.   0:09:55.9 Travis Timmons: And I asked them in the meeting and Kelly will remember this, I said, I know your institutions claim a 90 plus percent arrival rate. Did you have a 92% arrival rate? And they said, absolutely not. But they had people on their team, for example, the front desk might have been bonused based on arrival rate. So how they would take visits off of the calendar would not negatively impact arrival rate. So we talked a lot about operational definition and our aim is to study what we want to study, not to tamper or. Kelly, you share your favorite saying. There's only three ways to get better numbers, and those are   0:10:39.6 Kelly Allan: Manipulate the numbers which you were referring to from another company. Manipulate the system that gives you the numbers. So that also kind of fits with, well, we're not gonna call that a late arrival or a late cancel or a non arrival. We're gonna call that something else so we can manipulate the numbers. And then the third way, which was Deming's way, which is how do we figure out how to improve the system so that late arrivals go down. So that they're a natural part of what we do when people show up, the patients show up when they need to.   0:11:14.6 Travis Timmons: Yeah. And I think that's one of the things to your point earlier, Andrew, is was it just a happy go lucky meeting because Travis and Kelly have great personalities. Well, we know that's not true.   0:11:26.9 Kelly Allan: Speak for yourself.   0:11:29.3 Travis Timmons: But no, I think anymore people know when they're working on something meaningful that's gonna have an impact on their lives or where you're just there to drink coffee and have snacks. People don't suffer fools, right? They want to be there. To have a team of 50 plus people leaning in for almost five hours doesn't happen just because it's a fun environment. To your point, it's the right question to ask. I appreciate you asking that. It comes down to they understand that we're a Deming organization. They understand that what we're talking about is gonna be implemented in a Deming way. We'll talk about that more as we go on, but that, to Kelly's point, was starting with the aim. Our aim is improving arrival rate. How do we do that? That's where the Deming offsite comes into play. Kelly and I and our leadership team worked on, okay, how do we best convey this problem and this aim to our entire team rather than just five or six leadership people working with Kelly and just coming up with our own ideas and then spitting it out to the team at a monthly meeting?   0:12:47.8 Travis Timmons: The power of them owning and seeing the problem and then working on system improvement is the power of that is unmeasurable, as Dr. Deming would say.   0:13:03.1 Kelly Allan: Yeah. I think we talked about the aim to be able to continue to do the one-on-one care with patients because most companies are doing two patients, one physical therapist, three patients. Locally here in Columbus, Ohio, where Travis and I are at, we sometimes hear about classes of five patients with one physical therapist. Physicians and insurance companies, these people are not getting better. Right? These people are... Or if they get discharged, 'cause that's a way to get a better number. "Oh, we got them out." But they come back because they're not really healed. They don't really know how to take care of themselves the way they do when they come out of Fitness Matters. One of those overarching aims has to do with building the culture even further so everybody understands the why behind the what. We could say the what is how do we increase those arrival rates, and then the meeting was about the how we're gonna figure that out, how to do that. But the overarching piece had to do with the why. Why does this matter?   0:14:16.9 Kelly Allan: How do we see...If we see the organization as a system and we use a fishbone chart as a way to visualize some of that, everybody can see handoffs. Everybody can see how different parts of the system, of that patient journey, that patient story, intersect and how what happens upstream affects downstream and how the feedback loop from the discharge point of a physical therapist discharging the patient, how that can wrap back into the understanding of the customer care coordinators and how they can work with that at the very beginning of that relationship with the patient. It's all a part of a system, all a part of continuous flow. We wanted to make sure that everybody, especially the new people, really had a visual, a view of the organization as a system and how they interact. Part of those weeks of planning, it wasn't every day all day long. You start with some ideas, you refine them, you get some research, you refine them, you refine further. Travis spent a lot of time on that. Part of that value is time for reflection, time to have the others on the leadership team weigh in, give their points of view so that we're really seeing this from a fishbone perspective as well.   0:15:44.5 Kelly Allan: So now we can go into that meeting with everybody, and their homework was in part the fishbone with some instructions on how to do that and some examples of how to do that. And that was pre-work. So people came into the meeting already successful. They had already figured some things out. This just gave launch, just gave liftoff to the energy. They'd done this work, to your point, Andrew, they're making a difference, and it just fed on itself. The output was stunning.   0:16:21.0 Andrew Stotz: Travis, I'm gonna write your company aim as I heard it from you, and that is, or from both of you, is maintain one-to-one care. It's best, it's rare, it works. And the off-site aim was different from the company aim. It was the number one thing that we can do to improve that company aim is improve our arrival rates. Correct?   0:16:51.4 Travis Timmons: 100% correct. And you talk, I think you used the term silos earlier, Andrew. Part of the aha moments and making the system visible and working on this and building culture and teamwork, when everybody sees the complexity within your organization and understands that, there's a lot more willingness to support, like, "Hey, we need to change this process at the front desk," even though it may not be optimal for the physical therapist, as long as it achieves our overarching aim and improves joy in work for the front or less friction for a client coming in. Now the team starts to see and understand, all right, that's a system win rather than silos or turf wars. The amount of energy that is spent on that in organizations is... I couldn't do it.   0:17:52.9 Andrew Stotz: Another thing I think that would be difficult for many people with an off-site is you just had one aim. If we were doing prep in the companies that I know and I own and others, we're gonna list out 17 things we want to talk about in that four-and-a-half-hour off-site. From your perspective, why is it so important to get this one focus, one aim? And then I want you also to tell us more about how it went. We've set it up now, so just one last thing on the setup is this idea of focusing on one thing when you've got 17 different problems in our company and we got everybody together and you're telling me just one thing.   0:18:40.5 Travis Timmons: Well, and Kelly can chime in here because he was instrumental in getting us from pre-work to meeting day. But part of it, that's why it's two-and-a-half, three months of work leading up to this. We had the aim of arrival rate. All right, what are we gonna do? A lot of different ways we could have tackled that. We landed on fishbone and making the entire system visible. And that turned out to be the right move. I think Kelly can correct me if I'm wrong.   0:19:15.0 Kelly Allan: I would agree.   0:19:16.0 Travis Timmons: So we started with the aim and it's like, okay, how do we get 50 people to work on this together? Dr. Deming says make the system visible. And so we chose to do that via a couple different breakouts of a fishbone. And to your point, Andrew, when we did that, now there's understanding of complexity and then where are the biggest opportunities? Because we have seven things we're working on to achieve that aim. There's gonna be three or four large PDSAs. We're doing a software upgrade, which in and of itself... And a funny aside, so our organization's been doing the Deming approach for 13 years. Right, Kelly? We announced that we're changing softwares at this meeting. Right.   0:20:13.7 Travis Timmons: Everybody was like, "Okay, let's do it."   0:20:17.4 Kelly Allan: Unheard of. I see a lot of companies, that's usually panic time.   0:20:23.5 Travis Timmons: And it was announced at the beginning of the meeting. Any questions? "Nope, sounds like the right move for our aim."   0:20:32.3 Kelly Allan: Well, Travis, you provided the why behind the what. The what was that we have to change the software. You provided the rationale from all points of view, including from internal people who deal with the software to making it even less friction for customers and for physicians and for insurance companies, etc. People understood the why behind that what, and now they're ready to work on the how.   0:21:06.4 Travis Timmons: And I would even argue, because I agree with that, and because we've done Dr. Deming and have had success and accomplished so many things that people don't believe we've been able to accomplish as an independent organization, having lenses to look through and "by what method?" That's one of my favorite Kelly Allan-isms. By what method?   0:21:33.5 Kelly Allan: That's a quote from Dr. Deming.   0:21:36.0 Travis Timmons: Oh, okay. We're good.   0:21:38.9 Andrew Stotz: We stand on the shoulders of giants.   0:21:41.6 Travis Timmons: Yeah. There's a high level of trust in our organization that we can implement change. I think that...   0:21:51.3 Kelly Allan: I agree.   0:21:51.8 Travis Timmons: I don't want to undersell that in terms of how powerful that is that I announce we're changing our entire operating software in a few months and the entire team was... And we told them why, to Kelly's point. But to make that announcement and then just have everybody say, "Okay. Cool." I think that's crazy to me. I believe it because of everything else I've seen happen over 13 years. But to have a way, by what method, using Dr. Deming's principles, PDSAs, operational definitions, system view, we're gonna diagram it. Everybody left there confident that, "All right, we can do this and we're gonna do it." Anyway, what would you add to that, Kelly?   0:22:40.9 Kelly Allan: Yeah. I would say that fulfilling the promises that have been made at previous offsites just builds the credibility that this leadership team gets it, understands it, and is interested in engaging people and making things happen and getting things done in a way that doesn't disenfranchise people, it doesn't beat up on people, it doesn't cause harm, but people work together because they wanna figure it out. It's fun to figure it out. Yeah.   0:23:17.5 Kelly Allan: It can be at times a little too much fun, a little too exhausting to figure it out. But we're born wanting to make a difference and people can come to work there and know that they have a voice, they're heard.   0:23:33.1 Travis Timmons: And I think that's our superpower that I've learned from Dr. Deming is if I'm the only one figuring stuff out, we're in trouble. We're in trouble. So the team knows that we're gonna bring stuff, we're gonna talk about it, and we're gonna solve problems collectively through the Dr. Deming philosophy. That's something that just popped in my brain, Andrew, because it was such a non-event. But in most instances, that would have been the entire meeting would have been about that, the side conversations, people coming up to me...   0:24:15.0 Kelly Allan: And Travis, there would have been a lot of discussions at a non-Deming company about, "How do we get buy-in?"   0:24:22.4 Travis Timmons: Right.   0:24:22.8 Kelly Allan: "How do we manipulate people into saying this is okay?" We didn't have any...We didn't spend a minute on that.   0:24:30.5 Travis Timmons: Not one person asked me about the software the entire evening at dinner. It was just like, "We're gonna do it." It just struck me because it was a non-event in the meeting, but I think that would have been rare had we not had our history of Dr. Deming's approach and how we presented it in the meeting.   0:24:52.9 Andrew Stotz: Kelly, you said something that made me think of a book that I read in the past by Richard Feynman called The Pleasure of Finding Things Out. Great scientist. You talked about contribution and the desire for contribution and you talked about how people were figuring things out. And that's fun, that's exciting. That's what people want to get out of their management team and out of their employees. In some ways, I feel like you're talking about recess, a playground. Put all that stuff aside, let's go out and let's build this thing. All the joy that we did have when we were young. Think about, "Let's make a sandcastle! Yeah, you do that, I'll do this." That excitement...   0:25:45.0 Kelly Allan: That's what it was in the room that day. Different breakout groups working on different parts of the fishbone and then bringing them together and debriefing around it. It was very exciting. The energy was high. Andrew, you mentioned something, I think in part you were channeling Dr. Deming there because he also pointed out about how we're born wanting to make a difference, to make a contribution. Then we go to school and that gets beaten out of us with grades and command-and-control teaching, et cetera, et cetera. But to your earlier question about what makes this unique, special in regard to Deming, Travis mentioned the complexity. And so we go right back to the core of Deming: understanding variation and special cause, common cause, the important few things versus the trivial many, and how do you sort through those? That makes it very Deming. It makes it very Deming. The other thing that you won't see, and I've been in a lot of them through the years, in most offsites is those conversations about the why. It's usually, "Competitor's doing this," or, "We gotta make more money," or whatever.   0:27:01.0 Kelly Allan: No, the why for Fitness Matters is to achieve those aims. Right.   0:27:07.1 Andrew Stotz: Some of the things that you mentioned: have an aim, what makes this a Deming style, have an aim, think system, not individual focus, understand variation and how that can help you think system, not individual focus. You talked about pre-work, taking it seriously, and I would say that kind of responsibility for your employees and the environment. I was blown away with the amount of pre-work that we talked about previously. You talked about some tools like fishbone as an example. You've talked about the why. Travis, why don't you give us a very high level... We arrived at this time, this was then, we did this first, then we did that, then that. So we can just understand the structure of this meeting a little bit.   0:27:59.5 Travis Timmons: Sure. We've been big on operational definitions. So the operational definition of start time is Travis will start talking at 12:30 to start the meeting. Learned that one over the years. And I...   0:28:18.2 Travis Timmons: It was at a new location, so we had a couple people go to the wrong place. We put the map inside of the homework, swim upstream, try to make this as easy as possible. But to answer your question, we had an operational definition of the meeting starts at 12:30, and that means the meeting begins at 12:30. Operational definition, we had name tags. From an efficiency standpoint, we had six tables when we were going to do breakouts. People picked up their name tags, it had number one through six on it, so they know what table they would be going to at breakouts. We did a quick intro of every team member and what location they work at because we have had a lot of growth. Put names with faces, introduced Kelly so that everybody knew who he was. There's probably 11 people that didn't know who he was in person introduction and how that was going to be diving more into Dr. Deming. I made it very clear up front that this meeting, we're going to celebrate wins from 2025, but I made it very clear we're going to go through those quickly, not because they weren't huge wins, but because we had a lot of work to do to make sure we stay on that growth and excellence trajectory.   0:29:38.2 Travis Timmons: So we went through all of our wins for 2025. We reviewed our BHAGs, and then we got into the aim. In 30 minutes, we introduced everybody, we went over our wins for 2025, we reviewed our BHAGs, one of which is to be the best, leverage technology better than any physical therapy practice in the country was one of our BHAGs. Then I dovetailed that into, and we're switching softwares in a few months. Any questions? No. We go right into, here's what we're going to be working on today, referenced they're going to be using their homework, so they brought their homework booklets with them. We had PowerPoint slides so they knew what the directions were for the first breakout group. Kelly and I got there early and some of the leadership team got there early. We had the table set. We had the, I call it newsprint, up on tripods ready to go. You want to be prepared. They hit their tables because of the name tag. We had leaders assigned for each table.   0:30:50.1 Kelly Allan: And they were trained in advance. Yeah. Facilitators. Yeah.   0:30:53.5 Travis Timmons: We had leadership.   0:30:54.7 Andrew Stotz: So there was an intro period and then you said, "This is our aim and now go to your tables," or how did that... What were you telling them to do at the tables?   0:31:06.0 Travis Timmons: We told them the aim, reviewed the aim. To your point earlier, Andrew, overarching aim is maintaining our one-to-one care model.   0:31:14.0 Andrew Stotz: Yep.   0:31:14.7 Travis Timmons: Our aim of the meeting is how do we improve our arrival rate as an organization to greater than 85%? One of the ways we're going to accomplish that is making the entire system visible. We're going to go to our tables and we're going to work on... We had the fishbones drawn at each table, but we wanted them to fill in the fishbone as groups from their homework because everybody brought different ideas to the table. We wanted some conversation around that.   0:31:44.2 Andrew Stotz: That was a general fishbone. I think I remember later you talked about then breaking it down into separate fishbones, but that was just a general one to review what they'd done.   0:31:54.8 Travis Timmons: General one, work on the work together. To Kelly's point earlier, just the energy around working on ideas or, "Hey, I hadn't thought about that," or, "I didn't even know we did that in our system." Right.   0:32:07.0 Travis Timmons: Just understanding the complexity and really just getting the juices flowing on, here's what we're going to be working on because the next layer is going to be diving deeper into each one of those.   0:32:18.5 Andrew Stotz: How long was that period of going through the first fishbone and looking at their homework, discussing it together? How long did that last?   0:32:27.7 Travis Timmons: That one was a half hour because they'd already done the pre-work, so we assumed most of it was already going to be done. It was just kind of...   0:32:38.4 Andrew Stotz: Did you have them present any of that or that's just, "Go through that and that'll prep you for the next thing"?   0:32:46.0 Travis Timmons: We had them spend 25 minutes on that and then we saved room for five minutes for them to have kind of sharings or learnings or ahas. What did this experience teach you? Do you have anything to share?   0:33:01.9 Andrew Stotz: They're doing that within their group or they're doing that...   0:33:05.1 Travis Timmons: We went table by table and had them share with the entire team. Table by table, we had the team lead or anybody at the table, "Hey, what'd you think? What'd you learn?"   0:33:14.3 Andrew Stotz: Someone may say, "I didn't even realize that this impacts that and I just realized that now after seeing it." Okay.   0:33:24.0 Travis Timmons: Yeah. What are some of the things you heard, Kelly? I heard, "Oh, this is complex."   0:33:29.8 Kelly Allan: I also heard things like, "Well, I know how to handle this, but I need to define a process so that if I'm out, someone else can do it." Right? It's those kinds of little aha moments. Others were just, "Oh, is there a way for us to systematize that even further?" Again, it was that thinking about the system coming out in their comments. I think another part of the appreciation was really recognizing that a lot of people have to win. Deming talked about win-win being very stable and win-lose is not. They wanted to make sure the patients and the clients win, the physicians win, that the insurance companies are getting what they need, that the PTs and the Pilates people and the MAT people, etc., and the customer care coordinators are also having joy in their work. Because when you have a joyful staff, customers, clients really appreciate that. They just know there's something different. There's something different.   0:34:42.0 Andrew Stotz: And one question is, did you have any drift at that point where people started talking about other things that were unrelated but were key problems they're facing, or was setting your aim and doing the pre-work really kept them on track?   0:34:56.8 Kelly Allan: Great question. Yeah.   0:34:58.5 Travis Timmons: They were focused. They were focused the entire meeting. One of the things I learned it from Kelly or Ray, or maybe you taught Ray, I don't know, but we have a piece of paper we put up at every off-site, Andrew, we call it the parking lot. So that if somebody does have an idea that's outside of what we're there to tackle, we just have them go up and write it down so that they're heard, and it could be important, for sure, but we're not working on that today. We gotta stay laser-focused on what we're here for. So we have a parking lot, which has been super powerful, but nobody went to the parking lot the first half of the day at all.   0:35:39.2 Andrew Stotz: That's good. That's better than the woodshed. Excellent.   0:35:43.5 Travis Timmons: Speaking of the woodshed, this is one of my... I think this is one of the critical learnings, one of the many critical learnings I've had with Dr. Deming and the approach to leadership's responsibility. For me as the owner, at the end of the day, the buck stops with me, is to create joy in work, to create engaged teams where they can do fulfilling work. So you talked about the woodshed. It reminds me another one of my favorite quotes. A lot of owners or leaders talk about, "We have a lot of dead wood around here. Have a lot of dead wood on our team." The first Deming off-site I went to, Kelly said, "Well, there's only two ways that could have happened. Either one, you hired dead wood, and if you did, that's on you with your hiring process. Or number two, you hired live wood and you killed it. Either way, it's on the owner and leadership."   0:36:52.4 Kelly Allan: And I stole that from Peter Scholtes.   0:36:55.5 Andrew Stotz: Okay, got it.   0:36:57.0 Travis Timmons: But that struck me in terms of, okay, responsibility's on Travis to ensure we don't have that. Can't point fingers anywhere else. It's not people coming in with bad attitudes. So anyway.   0:37:15.8 Andrew Stotz: Okay, excellent. So now you've had the general fishbone discussion, you've had people present what were their key learnings from it. What happened next?   0:37:26.6 Travis Timmons: Just some quick aha's, anything from the homework, stuff like that. And then from there we did a couple-minute break and then we went right into the...   0:37:37.9 Andrew Stotz: It sounds like a HIIT, like a high-intensity interval training here. We did a couple-minute break.   0:37:44.6 Travis Timmons: We had work to do, man. People were there to get work done and get on to dinner. We had snacks and water in there they could grab real quick. Restrooms were close. And then agenda, we've gotta stay... And the team understands we have to do what we're doing, we have to be excellent in all categories. So the next thing we did, we came back together as a team, the entire team, and Kelly did the red bead experiment in preparation for the next breakout. Super powerful. For those that have seen the red bead experiment and how Dr. Deming used that to show how the willing worker shows up wanting to get all white beads, right? And the white bead, it's the white bead company, but there's red beads intermixed. No matter how hard they try, or Kelly offered a hundred-dollar bonus to somebody if they would just only bring out white beads the next time they put their paddle in, and it just had that visceral, in-the-moment realization that people show up wanting to do a good job. And issues, so the red beads were what we called cancellations impacting our arrival rate. Therapists want their patients to show up. Front desk wants, the client care coordinators want their patients to show up. Physicians want their patients to show up. So what do we need to do? It can't be bonus them if they show up or just try harder. What's not working? So that was a great...   0:39:23.4 Andrew Stotz: Why don't we go to that for a second. We're gonna have Kelly, maybe you can tell us a little bit about what you observed from that, and then we'll continue on with the rest of the structure.   0:39:36.2 Kelly Allan: Well, the way we set up the red bead experiment was very much focused on the real challenges and real issues that everybody at Fitness Matters faces in terms of this topic of increasing the arrival rate and how complex that is. I think the red bead experiment demonstrates for not only the people who are the willing workers and the people who are the inspectors and the person who is the scribe who keeps the spreadsheet, they realize that the numbers alone are not telling us what's going on. They realize that unless there's a system improvement, process improvement, and people working together to make those happen, you can bribe people, you can incent people, you can threaten people, you can send them home, you can give them a performance appraisal, you can do every kind of command-and-control management, but you haven't improved the system in which people work. There's still red beads. There's still red beads. We have to reduce the friction, we have to change the paddle. We have to figure out how it is we can help make it possible and easier for clients to want to show up so that they can get healthy and so that they can really appreciate what happens when they don't show up, how they are a part of the system. Once they become a patient, they're a part of the system of Fitness Matters.   0:41:18.3 Andrew Stotz: I'm just curious if there was also anything different. You've done the red bead experiment a lot of times with a lot of different types of companies. Were there any observations you had of the way they interpreted that that was either the same or different? What were some of your observations there?   0:41:37.7 Kelly Allan: Well, we planned it so that Travis and his leadership team could really do more of the debriefing so that they would have the context for the people in the audience as well as for the people on the stage, versus just a more generic, which is still powerful, to talk about how the system's in control and is this a common cause system or a special cause, what's really going on. Travis and his folks were able to then bring that context to the red beads, which I think made it especially powerful for this audience, for this group.   0:42:16.2 Andrew Stotz: Excellent. Travis, why don't you continue?   0:42:22.0 Travis Timmons: As Kelly shared, the leadership team debriefed after the red beads of the learnings and how that might be. The red beads were the cancellations that we currently have. Then we introduced, "Okay, now what we're gonna do is go do a deeper dive into the fishbones." There's five primary parts of our system, five bones. Each bone we're now gonna break out and work on the granular details. We did a fishbone for each of the larger bones.   0:43:01.8 Kelly Allan: Why don't you give a couple examples of the bones if you have it handy?   0:43:07.3 Travis Timmons: First bone is what we call initial contact. The first time a client has an interaction with Fitness Matters. Could be website, could be a physician referral, could be a neighbor talking to them, could be driving by. Initial contact, that's bone number one. How does that entire process work at Fitness Matters? Where's the friction point? Are there people that we don't even get into our door efficiently? They're not coming in set up for success, for example. Next bone would be setting them up for the evaluation. Third bone is evaluation day. Fourth bone is every subsequent visit up until discharge. And the fifth and final bone is discharge to ongoing wellness and how do we continue to stay connected? Those are the five bones as you flow through as a client at Fitness Matters, and the five major gates, if you will, is how we looked at it.   0:44:07.8 Kelly Allan: Every one of those is filled with complexity. There are a lot of little details to reduce the friction for the clients and for the system, for the patients in the system. I think that was an aha moment for people as well because a lot of them are in the quadrant four of unconscious competence. They've been doing this job well for a long time and they tend to forget the complexity. We have to identify the complexity so we can work on it and make it less complex, more streamlined, and so new people coming in can appreciate why Fitness Matters makes informed, thoughtful decisions about how they do things. It didn't just happen. These have been thoughtful things that have been worked on for years, but they can still be improved further and we can document them and make them more visible. When people saw all those little bones coming off the main bones, it's like, "Wow, there's a lot of little things that happen and we can impact almost all of those."   0:45:18.1 Travis Timmons: In some of the work we've already done on the bones to already have industry-leading arrival rate, but I think we can do better. We're one of the few, maybe one of the few medical appointments people have in their lives, not just physical therapy, but in general, that you go to do a medical appointment, do you know what it's gonna cost you out of pocket before you show up? Generally, you don't. We've swam upstream to make that visible to clients, so they already are coming in knowing what the cost is gonna be and are we providing that value? Just an example of, okay, can we swim further upstream with that and make it easier to pay and make it visible on their insurance deductible and all of that?   0:46:05.9 Kelly Allan: Well, and also, Travis, I think... I was just gonna say in terms of how many times have people been to a doctor's office, they've had to fill out a whole bunch of forms either online or in the office and then nobody ever looks at it. Something that Fitness Matters has been a leader on for a long time, which is how many of these questions are really required? How are we really gonna use that information? Let's not have seven pages. Can we get it down to four? Can we get it down to three? And increase... Because remember Deming's teachings are quality goes up as costs go down. Quality goes up as we have to commit less time. Quality goes up as joy in work goes up. Right? So that's that Deming structure of, no, quality does not have to cost more. In fact, Deming said if you're doing it this way, quality will cost less. And that's in part how Fitness Matters can compete against these big, big companies and win. I think, Travis, you've gotta share some of the statistics about what makes Fitness Matters an industry leader. What kinds of things are measured that you and others look at in the industry?   0:47:17.8 Travis Timmons: One of the big things in the physical therapy industry, Andrew, is what they call outcomes. They're measurable questionnaire by body part that you have a patient fill out at evaluation day and at discharge day, and it gives you a percentage of... In our industry, they call it functional ability. Are you 100% able with your shoulder or do you have a 60% disability with your shoulder? For example, across all body parts, we're 30 to 40% above national average on our outcomes. Not even close. Because of the efficiency, our patients show up. Again, the one-to-one care model is why it's our true north, and everything we do has to support that because of those industry-leading outcomes. Our no-show rate is one of the other things we define. Again, something we're working to improve upon, but we're already nation-leading. Our definition of a no-show is 24 hours notice up into a no-show. Most companies in our industry only call it a no-show if the patient just doesn't show up. With our definition of 24 hours notice or less, we're at 4% to 5%. National average of true no-shows, just not showing up, is 15%.   0:48:45.8 Andrew Stotz: Yeah, I can imagine even probably higher than that, but 15, yeah.   0:48:49.7 Travis Timmons: 15 to 20% depending on the research. Just two examples there. The Deming approach to system thinking, team engagement, getting rid of silos, operational definitions. To Kelly's point, we worked years ago on that initial client intake. I used an example several years ago around the time we were working on that project. My one son, got him an Apple iPad for Christmas. Other son got an Xbox 360. One product we got out of the box and turned it on, it was fully charged and ready to go in about 37 seconds. The other product took all kinds of unpacking, had to plug it in, and as soon as it came up, it said software upgrade required, and it proceeded to spend the entire day of Christmas downloading the update. We just use that as an example of how hard is this? We want that same experience for our clients. How do we make it an unbelievable healthcare experience for our clients?   0:50:10.1 Kelly Allan: Well, and Travis is being way too modest here, so I have to jump in. I don't know if I have the numbers exactly right, but Travis will correct me. Let's say you have an injury or you're recovering from surgery or whatever it happens to be, and the industry average is it's going to take 17 visits with a physical therapist for you to be at some level of functionality. At Fitness Matters, it might be 13 visits. Travis, is that too high?   0:50:42.3 Travis Timmons: 10.   0:50:43.1 Kelly Allan: 10 visits. 10 visits. So cut it in half. They're getting better in half the time. That's Deming.   0:50:52.9 Travis Timmons: Yeah.   0:50:53.3 Kelly Allan: Quality goes up, costs go down. Which is why Travis then can... Insurance companies also love them, right? It's like, wow, these people are getting better and they don't circle back just because they were... Operational definition is they're well. Discharged by somebody else, oh yeah, they had their 17, 18 visits, 19 visits, they're well. No, they're not. They come back or they go somewhere else and they're claiming insurance again. Fitness Matters, they learn how to stay well.   0:51:22.4 Travis Timmons: And that brings in another important thing that we've learned over the years, Andrew, with the Deming approach. Our data is industry leading, and we've worked hard at that. And we've got a great team that works within the construct that we've created through Deming. To get back to the unknown or unknowable quote that Dr. Deming would use, our marketing costs are low because patients go back to their physicians and say, "Hey, this is the best PT experience I've ever had." And after they hear that four or five times with us and they get complaints when they send them elsewhere, all of a sudden we start getting referrals from these doctors we've not even heard of before.   0:52:07.6 Kelly Allan: Yeah. Yep.   0:52:08.9 Travis Timmons: How do you measure that? What amount of marketing dollars would have to be spent to get in front of... Like, we doubled the number of physicians that referred to us in the last year.   0:52:23.6 Kelly Allan: Yes. That's a double, Andrew. Unheard of.   0:52:27.5 Andrew Stotz: Yeah.   0:52:28.1 Kelly Allan: Unheard of.   0:52:28.5 Andrew Stotz: Incredible. So you got amazing outcomes. Let's now wrap up about where did you get to at the end of this? What did you personally and the management team end up with?   0:52:45.9 Travis Timmons: So we had some do-outs. Our closing PowerPoint slide was within two weeks we would report back with one to two updated operational definitions and probably three PDSAs that we were going to tackle. That was kind of our promise back to the team, that we would look at all the work. We have paper everywhere. People got to vote. We had a one-page paper on potential PDSAs, and we gave them little stickers to vote on where they think we should put our time and energy and resources. Our takeaway, our product, if you will, three PDSAs. One that has two under it is the new software. We're gonna start doing online scheduling, automated waitlists. I won't get into all the details, but PDSA one has software change. PDSA two, there was a lot of feedback on, "Hey, it would be great if we had kind of a scripted conversation point for the client care coordinators for these four scenarios: first phone call, first in-visit, how we take payment and make their benefits visible to them, how do we take a phone call and handle a cancellation when they do happen to ensure that it's a positive experience."   0:54:12.4 Travis Timmons: And then how do we handle kind of a no-show? Another PDSA is we're gonna have those client care coordinators create their first version of what they think the best script would be, 'cause they're the ones that do it all day. Why would I try to come up with that? And then have them send it to us and do some feedback there. Then we updated our operational definition of canceled visits so that there was clarity across the system to make sure we're measuring what we want to measure, which is how many people show up to their visits each day. We reported that back to the team last Friday, actually, to make sure we hit the deadline we promised to them. And then we let them know we're also gonna be working on kind of a third or fourth PDSA—I kind of lost track there of how we're counting it under the software—but training the entire team on what does it mean to have client engagement and what is our operational definition of client connection and client engagement. So they know we're gonna be doing that on a location-by-location basis at the March monthly meeting.   0:55:26.4 Travis Timmons: That was our takeaway. A lot of product to come away with, and they're gonna have all of the context from the team off-site to understand what we're getting ready to tackle, especially with the software change.   0:55:40.1 Andrew Stotz: My first reaction to that is, oh, those seem like kind of things that you could have figured out some other way, or there's not that many things, or there wasn't some stunning breakthrough. Explain why you're happy with what you got versus you prepared, you did a lot of work, you got those things. Some of it may be that, hey, we need to go through a process. I may have known some of those conclusions, but if we don't have a process of going through that, first we have the risk of maybe I'm wrong in what I think. And the second thing we have is that we have the risk that it's just a business run by dictate rather than getting real buy-in. I'm just curious if you could explain a little bit about that.   0:56:30.7 Kelly Allan: You said the bad word. You said the B-word.   0:56:34.5 Andrew Stotz: Buy-in.   0:56:35.4 Travis Timmons: Understanding, Andrew. Not buy-in.   0:56:38.4 Andrew Stotz: We're looking for buy-in. No. Okay.   0:56:40.8 Kelly Allan: We change it. How do we get... The conversation changes when you say, "How do we get understanding?" Now it's about the why behind the what that leads to the how, versus buy-in, which means, "How are we gonna sell this to somebody?" Sorry, Travis, I couldn't resist.   0:57:02.8 Travis Timmons: No, it's 100% true. And to answer your question, Andrew, my first answer and probably the most powerful answer we already talked about earlier, but it's very important to reiterate and maybe close with, is because of our approach and the time and investment we spent preparing for the meeting, doing the meeting, the fact that there was zero concern or stress around us switching our software system. The amount of engagement that there's gonna be, 'cause there's gonna be work to be done by all team members in preparation for that software change. I am confident I'm not gonna have to do any motivational speeches leading up to that. I'm not gonna have to bribe people. They want this to work because they understand why we're doing it, they understand the value it's gonna provide, and they understand, now that they have deep understanding of our system, they understand why we need to do this to continue to excel.   0:58:13.9 Travis Timmons: I don't know what that's worth. That's unmeasurable. But I know had I just announced this and not had any process, not a Deming approach, just, "Hey, guys, Travis thinks we need to do a new software and we're gonna change how you document, how you schedule," I feel fairly confident how well that would've gone. That would be my answer, Andrew, is the power of being able to present that to a team. They're already asking me questions about, "Have you thought about this in our system?" We have a shared Word document across the team. What questions are coming up in your system thinking? "How are we gonna message this to all of our clients so that they know they're gonna get new emails for their home program?" Great question. I had not thought of that. That is unmeasurable, but I know we're gonna be successful when we switch softwares because of our approach via Deming. What would you add to that, Kelly?   0:59:14.7 Kelly Allan: I think that's the essential nature of what happens. When you set out with a clear, healthy, thoughtful aim, you have conversations around that with your leadership team and what they can do then to filter that and start to talk about that with their teams at their locations, and then you have time to reflect and continually improve that, you're really creating a racehorse. Most off-sites, and Andrew, you've been to these, I know, they start... It's the 17 things. I thought of this when you mentioned it earlier. We start out, we have a racetrack and we want to have a racehorse. But by the time most companies get to their off-site, they've put so much stuff on that horse that it's now a pack mule. It will eventually make it around the track, but if you're competing with Travis, his racehorse, that team's racehorse has been around that track past you many, many times. You may get there, but they're already onto another track by the time you get to the finish line. You're finished.   1:00:36.7 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. You may even be releasing kittens and he's got a horse.   1:00:42.0 Travis Timmons: Kelly brings up another great point there. The other thing that gives our team confidence, because of our system view, 96% of issues are due to systems and processes, not people, the Fitness Matters team is confident that there's gonna be hiccups with a software change. They're confident they're gonna be able to talk about it in a system view quickly, and they're confident we're gonna implement change to rectify that. That goes into one of the reasons why I got zero shocked looks or zero sidebar conversations the entire day. The only feedback I've gotten is, "Hey, we're excited about it. We think we need to do this. And have you considered this as part of our system change?" I don't know what else as a business you could want.   1:01:40.4 Andrew Stotz: Kelly, I was thinking about a good wrap-up from you is to help the listener and the viewer think about how can they apply this into their business. Let's step back a little bit from Travis and think about the work you do and give us some hope, give us some guidance about, can we do this? How?   1:02:04.6 Kelly Allan: Yeah. Several things come to mind. One is that when you first start to learn about the Deming lens, the System of Profound Knowledge, his approach, it seems, it's different. It is different and it can seem to be, oh my gosh, that's so different. We'll never be able to do that. But the point is, the Deming Institute offers a two-day seminar workshop and they can learn not to be incredibly proficient or masterful in two days of how to go back and do Deming, but they know how to get started and they do get started. And then it just becomes part of, again, the Deming magic is as you start to work on these things, your costs go down, your quality goes up, and sometimes you can raise your prices because of the quality and sometimes you just are more competitive at the existing price, but you're taking work and rework and waste out of the system through the Deming approach, which allows you the time. That's the big constraint in most companies. I don't have time to work on improvement. I gotta fix this.   1:03:29.9 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. Right.   1:03:30.9 Kelly Allan: So that's a fix that's gonna fail. That's a fix that's gonna fail. So I think the message is you just want to read The New Economics. If you get the third edition, start with the new chapter. It's like 40 pages and it sums up a whole lot of what we've been talking about. Then there's DemingNext videos through the Deming Institute. You can get your feet wet there. You can then, if you want, attend a seminar or read more things or reach out and have conversations with people. But you just have to try it so that you can see that the payback is there, that the joy in work is there. And in a war for talent, they wanna work for Deming. People wanna work for Deming-based companies because they're not about manipulating people. They're about joy in work. They're about reducing the friction. So you just gotta get started and don't be just because it's so different doesn't mean you can't learn it quickly. You can.   1:04:36.7 Andrew Stotz: Yep. And Travis is a great example of that. In our prior episodes, he talked about the journey, about the pain and all that. I think that's exciting. I'm gonna wrap it up. I just have to laugh because I've been out of the corporate world for a while, just doing my own thing. But I was thinking, you mentioned about buy-in and then you said it means you're selling something. And I thought that's funny. I remember my father used to say, he used to get so annoyed because he'd say, "Yeah, let's talk around this," which was a common thing back in those days. But then I was also thinking another thing that we were saying was onboard. Let's get people onboard with this. What if you're onboard? It pretty much means you're drowning. And I just thought about those types of things that when we talk about fear and work or fear in what we're trying to remove fear and stuff, part of it is the way we speak and the way we communicate.   1:05:41.1 Andrew Stotz: Travis, I feel like I want to leave you with the last word. So why don't you bring us home?   1:05:48.0 Travis Timmons: Yeah, I think I would follow on what Kelly said is I would just the amount of joy, the amount of stress this took off of me as a business owner and as a parent thinking about things differently. And the first time you start learning about Deming's teachings and the System of Profound Knowledge, it seems a little off. Seems a little like this just doesn't seem possible. I've had several people I've talked to about that. It just doesn't work that way. To Kelly's point, I would encourage just try a couple things, whether it be do you have clear operational definitions? Have you done a PDSA? Do you know how to do a PDSA? But the two-day seminars is where you kind of do the deep dive into like, oh, okay, I need to think about things differently. So anyone struggling with a business trying the latest and greatest book that's been out or the latest and greatest compensation model to create ownership thinking within your organization or whatever the buzzwords are, this is a long-term path to clarity and to just an understanding of how you can make your organization a place that has a positive impact on the lives of your employees and your clients.   1:07:17.7 Travis Timmons: And man, if you get that right, everything else follows. Sales, profit, all the stuff that a lot of metrics look at. If you get the point of your job is to have a positive place for your team to work and how do you do that? Deming is the way to do that. Everything else follows after that, in my opinion.   1:07:38.6 Andrew Stotz: And on that note, Travis and Kelly, on behalf of everyone at the Deming Institute, I want to thank you again for this discussion. For listeners, remember, as Kelly and Travis have both said, go to deming.org, go to DemingNEXT. There's resources there so you can continue your journey. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. I constantly repeat it because I love it, and that is: "People are entitled to joy in work."

A discussion of privacy, ethics, and technology was prompted after reports that Google recovered Nest camera footage believed to be deleted. Chuck Joiner, Marty Jencius, Jim Rea, Eric Bolden, Jeff Gamet, and Web Bixby review how cloud data is actually erased, the role of backups and mirrored servers, and the difficult balance between privacy promises and aiding law enforcement. The conversation expands into broader concerns about surveillance technology, online data permanence, and how companies should handle sensitive information in critical situations.  This edition of MacVoices is sponsored by Squarespace. Go to Squarespace.com/macvoices and click "enter an offer code" under the pricing and put in the code "macvoices" to receive a 10% discount. Squarespace: Everything you need to create an exceptional website. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Introduction to surveillance and AI topics 00:24 Recovered Nest camera footage raises privacy questions 01:08 How deleted video was reportedly recovered 02:05 Ethical concerns about surveillance cameras 02:22 Corporate dilemma: privacy vs public safety 03:13 Questions about data retention policies 04:25 How cloud storage distributes and retains data 05:31 Monetization and retention of surveillance footage 06:22 Guest departure and show housekeeping 07:23 How "deleted" cloud data actually works 08:36 Backups, mirrored servers, and forensic recovery 09:59 Internal decision-making around recovered data 11:08 Subscription models and video retention limits 12:45 Law enforcement implications and future requests 13:41 Encryption and control of stored video 15:52 The permanence of data on the internet 17:09 Lessons about sharing data online 18:32 Sponsor message and website strategy discussion 20:10 OpenClaw creator joins OpenAI 21:10 Impact on the AI development race 23:01 Limits and risks of current AI tools 24:25 Security concerns with AI assistants 25:44 The early stage of modern AI development 27:14 Why OpenAI may be the safer home for the project 28:52 AI interacting directly with operating systems 30:05 The road toward intelligent digital assistants 31:40 Closing reflections on technology ethics and change Links: Google recovers "deleted" Nest video in high-profile abduction case https://arstechnica.com/google/2026/02/google-recovers-deleted-nest-video-in-high-profile-abduction-case/ Peter Steinberger joins OpenAI https://thenextweb.com/news/peter-steinberger-joins-openai Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? 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WhoSusan Cross, Vice President of Operations at Aspen Skiing Company (and former Mountain Manager of Snowmass)Recorded onNovember 14, 2025 - which was well before I traveled to Snowmass and chased Cross around a bit in the pow. There she is tiny in the distance:About Aspen Skiing CompanyAspen Skiing Company (Skico) is part of something called Aspen One. Don't ask me what that is because even though they rolled it out two years ago I still have no idea what they're talking about. All I know or care about is that they own four ski areas and here is what I know about them:Don't be fooled by the scale of the map above - at 3,342 acres, Snowmass is larger than Aspen Mountain, Buttermilk, and Aspen Highlands combined. The monster 4,400-foot vert means these lifts are massively shrunken to fit the map - Snowmass operates three of the 10 longest chairlifts in America, and seven chairlifts over one mile long:You can't ski or ride a lift between the four mountains, but free shuttles connect them all. Aspen Mountain, Highlands, and Buttermilk are all bunched together near town, and Snowmass is a short drive (15 to 20 minutes if traffic is clear and dependent upon which base area you want to hit):Why I interviewed herAmerican ski areas will often re-use chairlifts or snowcats that other operators have outgrown. Aspen Mountain re-used a whole town.In 1879, Aspen the city didn't exist, and by 1890 more than 5,000 people lived there. They came for silver, not snow. In less than a decade they laid out the Victorian street grid of brick and wood-framed buildings using hand tools and horses, with the Roaring Fork River as their supply road.Aspen's population collapsed in the economic depressions of the 1890s and didn't rebound to 5,000 for 100 years. The 1940 Census counted 777 residents. That was 16 years before the first chairlift rose up Ajax, a perfect ski mountain above an intact but semi-abandoned town made pointless by history.It was an amazing coincidence, really. Americans would never build a ski town on purpose. That's where the parking lots go. But hey it all worked out: Aspen evolved into a ski town that offset its European walk-to-the-chairlifts sensibility with a hard-coded American refusal to expand the historic street grid in favor of protectionism and mansion-building. The contemporary result is one of the world's most expensive real estate markets cosplaying as a quaint ski town, a lively and walkable mixed-use community of the sort that we idealize but refuse to build more of. Aspen's population is now around 7,000, most of whom live there by benefit of longevity, subsidy, inheritance, or extreme wealth. The city's median household income is just over $50,000. The median home price is $9.5 million. Anyone clinging to the illusion that Aspen is an actual ski town should consider that it took 25 years to approve and build the Hero's chairlift. Imagine what the fellows who built this whole city in half a decade without the benefit of electricity or cement trucks or paved roads would make of that.The illusory city, however, is a dynamic separate from the skiing. Aspen, despite its somewhat dated lift fleet, remains one of America's best small ski mountains. But it is small, and, with no green terrain and barely any blues, the ski area lacks the substance and scale to draw tourists west of Summit County and Vail.Sister mountain Snowmass does that. And while Snowmass did not benefit from an already-built town at its base, it did benefit from not having one, in that the mountain could evolve with a purpose and speed that Ajax, boxed in by geography and politics, never could. Snowmass has built 13 new aerial lifts this century, including the two-station, mountain-redefining Elk Camp Gondola; the Village Express six-pack, which is the fourth-longest chairlift in America; and, in just the past two years, a considerably lengthened Coney high-speed quad and a new six-pack to replace the Elk Camp chairlift.I've focused on Aspen's story a bit over the years (including this 2021 podcast with former Skico CEO Mike Kaplan), but probably not enough. The four Aspen mountains are some of the most important in American skiing, even if visitation doesn't quite match their status as skiing word-association champion among non-skiers (more on that below). Aspen, a leader not just in skiing but in housing, the environment, and culture, carries narrative heft, and the company's status as favored property of Alterra part-owner Henry Crown hints at deeper influence than Skico likely takes credit for. Aspen, like Big Sky and Deer Valley and Sun Valley, is rapidly emerging as one of the new titans of American skiing, unleashing a modernization drive that should lead, as Cross says in our conversation, to an average of at least one new lift per year across the portfolio. Snowmass' 2023 U.S. Forest Service masterplan envisions a fully modern mountain with snowmaking to the summit. Necessary and exciting as that all is, forthcoming updates to the dated masterplans at Aspen Highlands (2013) and Buttermilk (2008), could, Skico officials tell me, offer a complete rethinking of what Aspen-Snowmass is and how the ski areas orbit one another as a unit.And they do need to rethink the whole package. Challenging Skico's pre-eminence in the Circle of American Ski Gods are many obstacles, including but not limited to: an address that's just a bit remote for Denver to bother with or tourists to comprehend; a rinky-dink airport that can't land a paper plane; an only-come-if-you-have-nine-houses rap on the affordability matrix; a toxic combination of one of America's most expensive season passes and most expensive walk-up lift tickets; and national pass partners who do a poor job making it clear that Aspen is not one ski area but four.A lot to overcome, but I think they'll figure it out. The skiing is too good not to. What we talked about“I thought I had found Heaven” upon arrival in Aspen; Aspen in the 1990s; $200 a month to live in Carbondale; “as soon as you go up on the lifts, the mountain hasn't changed”; when Skico purchased formerly independent Aspen Highlands; Highlands pre-detachable lifts; four ski areas working (and not), as one ski resort; why there is “minimal sharing” of employees between the four mountains; why “two winter seasons, and then I was going back to Boston” didn't quite work out; why “total guilt sets in” if Cross misses a day of skiing and how she “deliberately” makes “at least a couple of runs” happen every day of the winter and encourages everyone else to do the same; Long Shot in the morning; the four pods of Snowmass; why tourists tend to lock onto one section of the mountain; “a lot of people don't realize their lift ticket is good for the four mountains”; “there's plenty of room to spread out and have a blast” even at busy Snowmass; defining the four mountains without typecasting them; no seriously there are no green runs on Aspen Mountain; the new Elk Camp six-pack; why Elk Camp doesn't terminate at the top of Burnt Mountain; why Elk Camp doesn't have the fancy carriers that came with 2024's new Coney Express lift; why Snowmass opted not to add bubbles to its six-packs; how Coney Express changed how skiers use Snowmass; why Coney is a quad rather than a six; why skiers can't unload at the Coney Express mid-station (and couldn't load last season); how Coney ended up with a mid-station and two bends along the liftline; the hazards of bending chairlifts and lessons learned from Alta's Supreme debacle; why Snowmass replaced the Cirque Poma with a T-bar (and not a chairlift); which mountain purchased the old Poma; Aspen's history of selling lifts and how the old Elk Camp wound up at Powderhorn ski area; where Skico had considered moving the Elk Camp quad; “we want everybody to stay in business”; why Snowmass didn't sell or relocate the Coney Glade lift; prioritizing future chairlift upgrades; the debate over whether to replace Elk Camp or Alpine Springs first, and why Elk Camp won; “what we're trying to do is at least one lift a year across the four mountains”; a photobomb from my cat; why the relatively new Village Express lift is a replacement candidate and where that lift could move; why we're unlikely to see the proposed Burnt Mountain chairlift anytime soon; and the new megalift that could rise on Aspen Mountain this summer.What I got wrong* I said that Breck had “T-bars serving their high peaks,” which is incorrect. In fact, Breck runs chairlifts close to the summits of Peak 8 (Imperial Superchair, the highest chairlift in North America), and Peak 6 (Kensho Superchair). I was thinking, however, of the Horseshoe T-Bar, an incredible high-alpine machine that I rode recently (it lands below Imperial Superchair on Peak 8).* I said that Maverick Mountain, Montana, was running a “1960-something” Riblet double. The lift dates to 1969, and is slated for replacement by Aspen Mountain's old Gent's Ridge fixed-grip quad, which Skico removed in 2024.* I referred to the Sheer Bliss chairlift as “Super Bliss,” which I think was fallout from over-exposure to Breck, where 12 of the chairlifts are named [SOMETHING] Superchair or some similar name.Why you should ski Aspen-SnowmassWhy do we ski Colorado? In some ways, it's a dumb question. We ski Colorado because everyone skis Colorado: the state's resorts account for 20 to 25 percent of annual U.S. skier visits, inbounds skiable acreage, and detachable chairlifts. Colorado is so synonymous with skiing that the state basically is skiing from the point of view of the outside world, especially to non-skiers who, challenged to name a ski resort, would probably come up with Vail or Aspen.But among well-traveled skiers, Colorado is Taylor Swift. Talented, yes, but a bit too obvious and sell-your-kidneys expensive. There's a lot more music out there: Utah gets more snow, Idaho and Montana have fewer people, B.C.'s Powder Highway has both of those things. Europe is cheaper (well, everywhere is cheaper). Colorado is only home to 26 public, lift-served ski areas, and only two of the 10 largest in America. Only seven Colorado ski areas rank among the nation's 50 snowiest by average annual snowfall. Getting there is a hassle. That awful airport. That stupid road. So many Texans. So many New Yorkers. Alternate, Man!But we all go anyway. And here's why: Colorado ski areas claim 14 of the 20 highest base areas in North America, and 16 of the 20 highest summits. What that means is that, unlike in Tahoe or Park City or Idaho, it never rains. Temperatures rarely top freezing. That means the snow that falls stays, and stays nice. Even in a mediocre Rocky Mountain winter – like this one – Colorado is able to deliver a consistent and predictable trail footprint in a way that no other U.S. ski state can match. Add in an abundance of approachable, intermediate-oriented ski terrain, and it's clear why America's two largest ski area operators center their multi-mountain pass empires in Colorado.Which brings us back to the thing most skiers hate the most about Colorado skiing: other skiers. There are just so many of them. And they all planned the same vacation. For the same time.But there is a back door. Around half of Colorado's 12 to 14 million annual skier visits occur at just five ski areas: Vail Mountain, Breck, Keystone, Copper, and Steamboat – often but not always strictly in that order. Next comes Winter Park, then Beaver Creek. And all the way down at number eight for Colorado annual skier visits is Snowmass.Snowmass' 771,259 skier visits is still a lot of skier visits. But consider some additional stats: Snowmass is the third-largest ski area in Colorado and the 11th-largest in America. From a skier visits-to-skiable-acreage ratio, it comes in way below the state's other 2,000-plus-acre ski areas (save Telluride, which is even more remote than Aspen):Why is that? The map explains it: Snowmass, and Aspen in general, lost the I-70 sweepstakes. They're too far west, too far off the interstate (so is Steamboat, but at least they have a real airport).Snowmass is worth the extra drive time. I-70 through Glenwood Canyon is slow-going but gorgeous, and the 40 miles of Colorado 82 after the interstate turnoff barely qualify as mountain driving – four lanes most of the way, no tight turns, some congestion but only if you're arriving in the morning. A roundabout or two and there you are at Snowmass.And here's what that extra two hours of driving gets you: all the benefits of Colorado skiing absent most of its drawbacks. Goldilocks Mountain. Here you'll find the fourth-highest lift-served summit in American skiing, the second-tallest vertical drop, and a dizzying, dazzling modern lift fleet spinning 20 lifts, including 9 detachables and a gondola. You'll find glorious ever-cruisers, tree-dotted and infinite; long bumpers twisting off High Alpine; comically approachable green zones at the village and mid-mountain. If Campground double is open, you can sample Colorado skiing circa 1975, alone in the big empty lapping the long, slow lift. And since the Brobots hate Snowmass, the high-altitude Hanging Valley and Cirque Headwall expert zones are always empty.That's one of four mountains. Towering, no-greens-for-real Aspen Mountain and Aspen Highlands are as rugged and wicked as anything a Colorado chairlift can drop you onto. And Buttermilk is just delightful – 2,000 vertical feet of no-stress-with-the-9-year-old, with fast lifts back to the top all day long.Podcast NotesOn Sugarbush and Mad River GlenI always like to make this point for western partisans: there is eastern skiing that stacks up well against the average western ski experience. Most of it is in northern Vermont, and two of the best, terrain-wise, are Alterra-owned Sugarbush - home of the longest chairlift in the world - and co-op-owned Mad River Glen, which still spins the only single chair in the lower 48. Here's Sugarbush:Mad River Glen is right next door. Just keep going looker's right off Mt. Ellen:On pre-Skico HighlandsWhoa that's a lot of lifts. And they're almost all doubles and Pomas.On Joe HessionHession is founder and CEO of Snow Partners, which owns Mountain Creek ski area, the Big Snow indoor ski ramp in New Jersey, Snow Cloud resort-management software, the Snow Triple Play Pass, and the Terrain Based Learning concept that you see in beginner areas all over America. He's been on the pod a few times, and he's a huge fan of Susan's.On Timberline's wonky vertMeasuring vertical drop is a somewhat hazardous game. Potential asterisks include the clandestine inclusion of hike-up terrain (Aspen Highlands), ski-down terrain with no return lift access (Sunlight), or both (Arapahoe Basin). Generally, I refer to lift-served vert, meaning what you can ski down and ride back up without walking. But even that gets tricky, as in the case of Timberline Lodge, Oregon, home to the tallest vertical drop in American lift-served skiing. We have to get mighty creative with the definition of “lift” however, since Timberline includes a 557-vertical-foot lift-served gap between the top of the Summit chairlift (4,290 feet) and the bottom of the Jeff Flood high-speed quad (4,847 feet). This is the result of two historically separate ski areas combining in 2018:Timberline's masterplan calls for a gondola from the base of Summit up to the top of Jeff Flood:For now, skiers can ski all the way down, but have to ride back up to Timberline from the Summit base via shuttle. To further complicate the calculus here, the hyper-exposed Palmer high-speed summit quad rarely runs in winter, acting mostly as a summer workhorse for camp kids. When Palmer's not running, a snowcat will sometimes shuttle skiers close to the unload point.Anyway, that's the fine print annotating our biggest lift-served vertical drop list:On Big Sky's new lifts and pod-stickingSnowmass' recent lift upgrade splurges are impressive, but Big Sky has built an incredible 12 aerial lifts in the past decade, 11 of them brand-new. These are some of the most sophisticated lifts in the world and include two six-packs, two eight-packs, a tram, and two gondolas. This reverse chronology of Big Sky's active lifts doubles as a neat history of the mountain's evolution from striver importing other resorts' leftovers to one of the top ski areas on the continent:Big Sky still has some older chairs spinning along its margins, but plenty of tourists spend their entire vacation just lapping the out-of-base super lifts (according to on-the-ground staff). The only peer Big Sky has in the recent American lift upgrade game is Deer Valley, which has erected nearly a dozen aerial lifts in just the past two years to feed its mega-expansion.On the Ikon Pass site being confusing as to mountain accessI just find the classification of four separate and distinct ski areas as one “destination” confusing, especially for skiers who aren't familiar with the place:On the new Elk Camp chairliftThe upside of taking nine years to distribute this podcast is that I was able to go ride Snowmass' gorgeous new Elk Camp sixer:On my Superstar lift discussion with KillingtonOn Aspen's history of selling liftsI somewhat overstated Aspen's history of selling lifts to smaller mountains. It seemed like a lot, though these are the only ones I can find records of:However, given Skico's enormous number of retired Riblets (28, all but two of which were doubles), and the durability and ubiquity of these machines, I suspect that pieces – and perhaps wholes – of Aspen's retired chairlifts are scattered in boneyards across the West.On the small number of relocated detachable lifts Given that the world's first modern detachable chairlift debuted at Breckenridge 45 years ago, it's astonishing how few have been relocated. Only 19 U.S. detaches that started life within the U.S. are now operating elsewhere in the country, and only nine moved to a different ski area:On Powderhorn's West End chairThe number of relocated detachables is set to increase to 10 next year, when Powderhorn, Colorado repurposes Snowmass' old Elk Camp quad to replace this amazing, 7,000-foot-long double chair, a 1972 Heron-Poma machine:Elk Camp is already sitting in a pile beside the load station (Powderhorn officials tell me the carriers are also onsite, but elsewhere):Powderhorn's existing high-speed quad, the Flat Top Flyer, also came used, from Marble Mountain in Canada.On Snowmass' masterplan and the proposed Burnt Mountain liftSnowmass' most recent U.S. Forest Service masterplan, released in 2022, shows the approximate location of a future hypothetical Burnt Mountain chairlift (the left-most red dotted line below):Unfortunately, Cross and the rest of Skico's leadership seem fairly unenthusiastic about actually building this lift. Right now, skiers can hike from the top of Elk Camp chair to access this terrain.On Aspen's Nell-Bell ProposalOh man how freaking cool would it be to ride one chairlift from Aspen's base to the top of Bell? Cross and I discuss Aspen Mountain's Forest Service application to do exactly that, with a machine along roughly this line parallel to the gondola:The new detachable would replace two rarely-used chairs: the Nell fixed-grip quad and the Bell Mountain double chair, which, incredibly, dates to 1957 (with heavy modifications in the 1980s), making it the fourth-oldest standing chairlift in the nation (after Mt. Spokane's 1956 Vista Cruiser Riblet, Mad River Glen's 1946 American Steel & Wire single chair, and Boyne Mountain's Hemlock Riblet double, moved to Michigan in 1948 after starting life circa 1936 as America's first chairlift – a single standing at Sun Valley).I lucked out with a gondola wind hold when I was in Aspen a few weeks back, meaning Nell was spinning:Sadly, Bell was idle, but I skied the liftline and loaded up on photos:On the original Lift 1 at AspenBehold Lift 1 on Aspen Mountain, a 1946 American Steel & Wire single chair that rose 2,574 vertical feet along an 8,480-foot line in something like 35 or 40 minutes. Details on this lift's origin story and history vary, but commenters on Lift Blog suggest that towers from this lift ended up as part of Sunlight's Segundo double following its removal from Ajax in 1971. That Franken-lift, which also contained parts from Aspen's Lift 3 – which dated to 1954 and may have been a Poma or American Steel & Wire machine, but lived its 52-year Sunlight tenure as a Riblet – came down last summer to make way for a new-used triple – A-Basin's old Lenawee chair.On the Hero's expansionAt just 826 acres, Aspen Mountain is the most famous small ski area in the West. The reason, in part, for this notoriety: a quirky, lively treasure chest of a ski area that rockets straight up, hiding odd little terrain pockets in its fingers and folds. The 153-acre Hero's terrain, a byzantine scramble of high-altitude tree skiing opened just two years ago, fits into this Rocky Mountain minefield like a thousand-dollar bill in a millionaire's wallet. An obscene boost to an already near-perfect ski mountain, so good it's hard to believe the ski area existed so long without it.Here's a mellow section of Hero's:And a less-mellow one (adding to the challenge, this terrain is at 11,000 feet):The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Anatomy Primer.Based on a post by smalltitslovr, in 4 parts. Listen to the ► Podcast at Steamy Stories.This time, I was last to go, and the only people left in the room were Nicole, Ms. Sharon, and I. I stepped between Nicole’s legs, which were now quivering from all the pleasure. About half-way through, Nicole started having trouble keeping them open, so Ms. Sharon was now standing on the other side of the desk from me, near Nicole’s head, holding each of Nicole’s ankles spread about three feet apart.“Hi Nicole.” I said to her, as I approached. “I’m the last one. Before I start, I was wondering how you feel.”Nicole weakly lifted her head to look at me. She was smiling, but she also looked quite tired. “Well, My legs are a little sore from being spread for so long. Also, my cunt is a little raw from all the different fingers being rubbed in and out of it. But overall, I feel amazing. I’ve never climaxed this many times in such a short amount of time before.”“So, I take it you’re still glad I ran into you in the library?” I asked.“Oh, definitely!” she exclaimed. “If I get to experience all this on just the first day, I can’t wait for what’s in store for us for the rest of the semester.”“Wow.” I said, smiling back at her. “I don’t know if I could take all the attention and stimulation you have had today. Well, I’ll hurry up and finish this, so we can leave.”“Thank you Samantha,” she replied. “But, since you’re last, make sure it’s a good one. I don’t want to leave here on a low note. If you make it good, I promise that I’ll pay you back for it another time.”I smiled and replied, “Deal.”I then reached up with my left hand and grabbed Nicole’s right tit, lightly caressing it. Then I rubbed the outside of Nicole’s cunt until I found her clitoris. As I rubbed her clit and her boob, she started to moan lightly.After about 45 seconds, I slowly inserted my index and middle fingers into Nicole’s gaping hole. Because of all the abuse her cunt had been given in the past ten minutes or so, it was quite loose, and very wet, but also quite red. I slid my fingers in and out of her hole a few times, before inserting a third finger. Then I rubbed around inside her cunt, until I found a slightly rough patch, which was also a little warmer from all the friction from the other students fingers. I rubbed it gently, which caused Nicole to moan louder, and start squirming. As I fingered her, I also rubbed her breast and lightly pinched her small nipple.I continued rubbing and finger-fucking Nicole for about two more minutes, until Nicole started screaming “I’m cumming! I’m cumming!”, while her body writhed as much as it could with Ms. Sharon still firmly holding Nicole’s legs. I was sure that nearby classrooms would hear her screams, and the movement of the table shaking beneath her, but she apparently didn’t care, and neither did Ms. Sharon.After Nicole’s final release of ecstasy, I removed my fingers, and Ms. Sharon released her grasp on Nicole’s ankles. Nicole lowered her legs, placing her feet on the ground, but still layed on the table, with her eyes closed.Ms. Sharon started packing her things into her bag, as she said, “Good class today, you two. Samantha, I want to thank you for introducing our class to Nicole and planting the idea of attending. And Nicole, I really want to thank you for your participation today. I know it must have been a bit awkward for all of your classmates to not only see every intimate detail of your body, but feel those parts, and bring you to several orgasms.”“No, Ms. Sharon. Thank you,” replied Nicole, as she stood and slowly walked over to her pile of clothes. “That was the best sexual experience I’ve had in my life so far, and I very much look forward to having even better ones in future classes. But right now, I really just want to take a nap.”“Well, I’d offer to let you stay in here, but there’s another class coming in here soon, and I think they’re covering some very conservative topic like History of Architecture or something. I’m sure they would be quite put off by your nudity.”“That’s alright.” replied Nicole with a smile, as she pulled on her tight yoga pants, without any panties underneath. “I don’t live far from campus. I’ll just go home and take a nap.”“One more thing before you go, Nicole.” said Ms. Sharon as she was finishing packing her bag. “In the last class, I mentioned to everyone else that there’s an extra credit opportunity for anyone willing to participate in some sexual studies. I think you would be an excellent candidate for those studies. Please consider it.”“I will.” said Nicole as she pulled her sports bra on. She picked up her shirt, and looked at it “You know; I really don’t feel like wearing this. I think I’ll walk home without it.”At this point I had pulled on my clothes, so Nicole and I were dressed. The three of us departed the room together. Ms. Sharon didn’t bring any clothes, so she walked out naked, but she said her office wasn’t far, and the faculty in her department were used to it. I walked with Nicole, chatting about the experience, until we got to a place where we parted ways.I then walked back to my dorm. When I arrived, I stripped out of my clothes, and laid down on my bed, immediately putting my hand on my cunt. I imitated what I did to Nicole earlier, and rubbed my clit. With my eyes closed, I was imagining being in Nicole’s position on the table, and I imagined that my hand was one of my other classmates. In my daydream, my eyes were closed, so I didn’t know whose hand it was.After rubbing my clit for a while, I slid a finger inside my cunt, and found my own g-spot. I rubbed it as fast as I could. As I continued daydreaming about each of my classmates fingering my cunt, I came. But I wasn’t ready to be done, so I continued daydreaming and finger-fucking myself. I came a two more times, before finally deciding to stop. I was tired, so I fell asleep.Masturbation, sex toys, and orgasm.A few classes had passed since the class on the human anatomy. The next few topics were less interesting, but still very informative.First, we paired up in the same groups as before, and studied each other’s bodies closely, one on one. While interesting, if I wrote about that, it would be somewhat repetitive, so I’ll skip it.After that, we covered various measurement techniques, including shirt-sizes, pant-sizes, and especially bra-sizes. I found out during that class that I had been wearing the wrong bra-size for years. I thought I was a 34A or 32B, but really I’m more like a 28D. Bra sizes are confusing!We also covered some other important, but boring topics, such as reproduction and STDs. For a homework assignment, we were all required to get an tested for a variety of STDs, as a prerequisite for the rest of the course. That was due in three class periods.So, today’s story is about day seven of class.I was getting more comfortable with the class, so I didn’t arrive quite as early anymore, but I always arrive a bit before class, and today was no exception. I got there about five minutes before.Just like the past couple of classes, everyone that was already there had stripped to their birthday suits. I quickly found my seat, stripped off my clothes, put them in my bag, and sat down. I didn’t bother covering up anymore, because there was no real reason to. Everyone there had already seen it all, and nobody else was covering up. Thinking back on it, I’m actually somewhat surprised at how little time it took for each of us to get so comfortable in our nudity.At 7:01, Ms. Sharon walked in, with the same amount of clothes as the rest of us. I kind of wondered how early she got nude. Did she strip right before walking over to the class, or was she naked all morning? I hadn’t seen her with clothes on in so long, that I could no longer picture her wearing them.“Hello class,” she said, as she placed her bag in its usual spot on the table. “I’m glad to see you’re all comfortable being nude with your fellow classmates, because you will all be getting much more familiar with each other today. Our topic is masturbation, sex toys, and the orgasm."To start today’s class, we will discuss masturbation. Who here has masturbated before?” Almost everyone raised their hands. “Good. Those of you who say you haven’t, I don’t believe you. But in case you really haven’t, today will be the end of that."Everyone, please get in your normal masturbation positions. For those of you that say you haven’t ever done it: males generally grab their shaft and stroke it, and females either rub their clitoris or stick their fingers inside their vaginas, aka finger themselves.”We all did as Ms. Sharon said, placing our hands on our genitals, and we started to rub and stroke ourselves. I as a little hesitant at this, but once I’d seen many of my classmates (especially the boys) start in on themselves, I relaxed. I spread my legs, leaned back, put the first two fingers of my right hand on my clit, and started rubbing it in a small circle.“Good. I want you all to continue masturbating, but please save your orgasms until later. Now, I’m going to show you all several sex toys. For each toy, I will need one volunteer to demonstrate how it is used. In some cases, I will need two volunteers.”Ms. Sharon then reached into her bag, and pulled the first toy out. It was a simple, flesh-colored dildo, about 5.5 inches long, and 1.5 inches wide, with balls on the end. It looked much like some of the cocks I saw the boys holding in their hands. “This is a dildo. It is designed to simulate a male penis. Dildos come in many shapes, and sizes, and have a variety of features. This one is a simple one. Generally dildos are used by females, but some males use them as well."Now, who would like to demonstrate how this dildo is used?” Of course, nobody raised their hands. “Come on, people. This is the most basic toy I have. It only gets more complex from here.” After another moment, Sofia raised her hand.“Good, Sofia. Please come up here.” Sofia stood, walked to the front, and took a seat on the table. “Alright, Sofia. Have you used a dildo before?” She nodded. “Okay, then you know what to do. I’ve also brought some lubricant if anyone needs it. Everyone watch closely.”Sofia squirted a little lube on the dildo, opened her legs, and slid the dildo inside of her cunt. As she slid it in, she closed her eyes. She slowly slid it in and out. From her facial expressions, I could tell she was enjoying the feeling, but she was a bit embarrassed by being singled out like that. A moment later, we all heard her start moaning.After about a minute or so of Sofia fucking herself with the dildo, Ms. Sharon said, “Good, Sofia, that’s exactly right. Thank you for the demonstration. You may take your seat now.” Sofia pulled the dildo out of her cunt, and stood up. She offered it to Ms. Sharon, but she refused. “Oh, no. Please, keep it for the rest of class. That goes for everyone else who volunteers as well.”Sofia walked back to her seat, reinserted the dildo, and continued fucking herself.“Alright, next up, we have the vibrator,” said Ms. Sharon, as she pulled another dildo from her bag. This one was larger than the last; maybe 6 inches long and 2 inches wide. “This toy requires batteries, because when it’s switched on, it created a vibration throughout the rubber shaft, which most females enjoy. Additionally, this dildo has piece known as a rabbit ear, which rubs against a woman’s clitoris. Who would like to demonstrate the usage of this toy?”After a couple seconds, Latoya’s hand went up. Ms. Sharon nodded, and Latoya came to the front, taking a seat on the table.“Thank you Latoya,” said Ms. Sharon, as she passed the vibrator to Latoya. Latoya didn’t bother with the lube, since she was already quite wet on her own. She easily slid the large dildo inside her cunt. When it was all the way in, she turned a knob on it, and we all heard a buzzing sound, and saw Latoya’s head tilt back in pleasure.“Good, Latoya,” said Ms. Sharon, “Make sure you also rub the rabbit ear against your clitoris. Yes, just like that. Doesn’t that feel good?”Latoya nodded.“Alright, Latoya, you may take your seat.”Latoya took her seat, and Ms. Sharon continued, pulling the next toy out of her bag. It was about 7 inches long, with what looked like a cunt on one end. “Now, I don’t want the men in the room to feel left out, so next we have the fleshlight. This toy is designed to simulate the female vagina. Who would like to demonstrate its usage?”Tony Baker didn’t hesitate to stick his hand in the air.“Alright, Mr. Baker,” said Ms. Sharon. Tony walked to the front, and took the fleshlight from Ms. Sharon. He then placed it at the tip of his large cock, and slid himself inside it. He then jacked himself off with it, fucking the rubber vagina.“Excellent, Tony,” said Ms. Sharon. “This fleshlight also has a vibration feature. Let me switch that on for you.” She reached down, grabbing the fleshlight (and thus Tony’s cock), in her hand. She slid the toy up and down a couple times, before flipping a switch on the side of it. Instantly, Tony leaned back and started writhing in pleasure. Then she flipped it off.“Good, Tony. You may take your seat.” He did, as Ms. Sharon continued, pulling the next toy out of the bag. “This is sometimes called a magic wand. The tip of it vibrates with a much higher intensity than the dildos, and can be controlled by a switch on the handle. It is generally used by women to rub their clitoris. Who would like to volunteer to demonstrate the wand?”Nobody raised their hand, at first, but eventually Barbara volunteered. She stood, took the usual spot on the table, and spread her legs. Ms. Sharon handed her the wand, and Barbara turned it on and started rubbing it against her cunt. Ms. Sharon gave her a few tips before sending her back to her seat.“Next, we have our first two-person toy.” said Ms. Sharon, as she pulled two small, metal objects, about 2 inches long, out of her bag. “These are remote controlled vibrators. A girl inserts it into her vagina, and the remote controls the intensity of the vibration. It can be used by a single person, but today we will use it in pairs. I have two of them, so we need two females. Since our last toy also needs two females, I will ask for one female volunteer, and two males, please. I will be the other female.”Most of the boy’s hands shot up, but none of the girls. Ms. Sharon picked Filipe and Ken. After another moment, I decided to volunteer. I’d rather have this toy, than be forced into whatever the next one was.“Alright, Samantha, take a seat up here. We’ll both insert them at the same time.”I sat on the edge of the table, and spread my legs apart. Then, Ms. Sharon and I pushed the small metal devices completely into our cunts. Then we stood up.“How does that feel, Samantha?” asked Ms. Sharon.“A little cold, but fine otherwise,” I replied.“Good. Alright, Ken, you get my remote, and Filipe, you get Samantha’s.” She handed them to the students. “For the rest of today’s class, feel free to switch our toys on and off, and increase the intensity, whenever you’d like, but please refrain from making us orgasm until the end of class.”I started walking back to my seat. Both the boys looked at their remotes. Filipe asked, “Does this knob increase the intensity?” as he turned it all the way up.I lost my balance, and leaned on the table, as a loud moan escaped from my mouth. The vibration was very intense. “Yes, Ken,” I heard Ms. Sharon say, “that’s the intensity. You can see that at full blast, it’s hard for the receiver to do much of anything else.”“I see,” said Ken as he turned it down to about halfway. “Sorry about the surprise, Samantha. I just wanted to test it out.”I stood back up, and walked back to my seat, as I replied, “It’s alright.”Ms. Sharon said, “That’s exactly how it should be used: at random times, to surprise the receiver. However, please don’t disrupt the class.” She pulled the last toy from her bag. “As I said earlier, this last toy is designed to be used by two females. Since we only have two remaining, I’ll ask that Nicole and Amy please come up here now.”They were both a bit hesitant, but they didn’t have much choice. It had to be demonstrated, and there were only two cunts left that weren’t already full or being rubbed: Nicole’s and Amy’s. They both walked to the front, and waited for Ms. Sharon to give them instructions.“Thank you, both,” she said, holding up the final toy, “This is a double dildo. At either end, there is a cock-shaped rubber shaft, and in the middle there is a handle. Generally, this is used by two females, but you can use it alone as well. Both of you, please lie on the table, with your heads facing away from each other.”They did as Ms. Sharon said. The table was a bit small, so both of their heads were hanging off the ends. Once they were in position, Ms. Sharon continued.“Good. Now, please spread your legs, and scoot a little closer to each other.” They did so. “Thank you. I’ll start with Amy, and then Nicole.”Amy looked down and saw Ms. Sharon put some lube on the tip of one end, then put the tip of the dildo at the entrance of her cunt. Ms. Sharon slowly slid it inside of her.“Good. Now, I’m going to need to slide it all the way in, so I can get it to the entrance of Nicole’s hole.”I saw the dildo slide further and further into Amy’s cunt, and finally it stopped. Then Ms. Sharon put some lube on the other end, and slowly slid it into Nicole’s cunt. I heard both of them moan as it slid inside Nicole, and out of Amy.“Good.” said Ms. Sharon, “Thank you both. Now we’re ready to demonstrate. Everyone, please stand and; Oh!.” Ms. Sharon collapsed into the chair next to the desk.I looked over and Ken had a grin on his face. Then I felt my vibrator start up as well. It slowly increased, until I couldn’t take it. I started moaning again. The moans of Ms. Sharon and I continued, as Ken and Filipe both kept the vibrators at full intensity.Ken then stood and walked to the front of the class, and said, “I’ll take over for a moment, Ms. Sharon, if you don’t mind.” Ms. Sharon nodded, and put her hand on her cunt and started rubbing. “Good. I’ll tu

Anatomy Primer.Based on a post by smalltitslovr, in 4 parts. Listen to the ► Podcast at Steamy Stories.This time, I was last to go, and the only people left in the room were Nicole, Ms. Sharon, and I. I stepped between Nicole’s legs, which were now quivering from all the pleasure. About half-way through, Nicole started having trouble keeping them open, so Ms. Sharon was now standing on the other side of the desk from me, near Nicole’s head, holding each of Nicole’s ankles spread about three feet apart.“Hi Nicole.” I said to her, as I approached. “I’m the last one. Before I start, I was wondering how you feel.”Nicole weakly lifted her head to look at me. She was smiling, but she also looked quite tired. “Well, My legs are a little sore from being spread for so long. Also, my cunt is a little raw from all the different fingers being rubbed in and out of it. But overall, I feel amazing. I’ve never climaxed this many times in such a short amount of time before.”“So, I take it you’re still glad I ran into you in the library?” I asked.“Oh, definitely!” she exclaimed. “If I get to experience all this on just the first day, I can’t wait for what’s in store for us for the rest of the semester.”“Wow.” I said, smiling back at her. “I don’t know if I could take all the attention and stimulation you have had today. Well, I’ll hurry up and finish this, so we can leave.”“Thank you Samantha,” she replied. “But, since you’re last, make sure it’s a good one. I don’t want to leave here on a low note. If you make it good, I promise that I’ll pay you back for it another time.”I smiled and replied, “Deal.”I then reached up with my left hand and grabbed Nicole’s right tit, lightly caressing it. Then I rubbed the outside of Nicole’s cunt until I found her clitoris. As I rubbed her clit and her boob, she started to moan lightly.After about 45 seconds, I slowly inserted my index and middle fingers into Nicole’s gaping hole. Because of all the abuse her cunt had been given in the past ten minutes or so, it was quite loose, and very wet, but also quite red. I slid my fingers in and out of her hole a few times, before inserting a third finger. Then I rubbed around inside her cunt, until I found a slightly rough patch, which was also a little warmer from all the friction from the other students fingers. I rubbed it gently, which caused Nicole to moan louder, and start squirming. As I fingered her, I also rubbed her breast and lightly pinched her small nipple.I continued rubbing and finger-fucking Nicole for about two more minutes, until Nicole started screaming “I’m cumming! I’m cumming!”, while her body writhed as much as it could with Ms. Sharon still firmly holding Nicole’s legs. I was sure that nearby classrooms would hear her screams, and the movement of the table shaking beneath her, but she apparently didn’t care, and neither did Ms. Sharon.After Nicole’s final release of ecstasy, I removed my fingers, and Ms. Sharon released her grasp on Nicole’s ankles. Nicole lowered her legs, placing her feet on the ground, but still layed on the table, with her eyes closed.Ms. Sharon started packing her things into her bag, as she said, “Good class today, you two. Samantha, I want to thank you for introducing our class to Nicole and planting the idea of attending. And Nicole, I really want to thank you for your participation today. I know it must have been a bit awkward for all of your classmates to not only see every intimate detail of your body, but feel those parts, and bring you to several orgasms.”“No, Ms. Sharon. Thank you,” replied Nicole, as she stood and slowly walked over to her pile of clothes. “That was the best sexual experience I’ve had in my life so far, and I very much look forward to having even better ones in future classes. But right now, I really just want to take a nap.”“Well, I’d offer to let you stay in here, but there’s another class coming in here soon, and I think they’re covering some very conservative topic like History of Architecture or something. I’m sure they would be quite put off by your nudity.”“That’s alright.” replied Nicole with a smile, as she pulled on her tight yoga pants, without any panties underneath. “I don’t live far from campus. I’ll just go home and take a nap.”“One more thing before you go, Nicole.” said Ms. Sharon as she was finishing packing her bag. “In the last class, I mentioned to everyone else that there’s an extra credit opportunity for anyone willing to participate in some sexual studies. I think you would be an excellent candidate for those studies. Please consider it.”“I will.” said Nicole as she pulled her sports bra on. She picked up her shirt, and looked at it “You know; I really don’t feel like wearing this. I think I’ll walk home without it.”At this point I had pulled on my clothes, so Nicole and I were dressed. The three of us departed the room together. Ms. Sharon didn’t bring any clothes, so she walked out naked, but she said her office wasn’t far, and the faculty in her department were used to it. I walked with Nicole, chatting about the experience, until we got to a place where we parted ways.I then walked back to my dorm. When I arrived, I stripped out of my clothes, and laid down on my bed, immediately putting my hand on my cunt. I imitated what I did to Nicole earlier, and rubbed my clit. With my eyes closed, I was imagining being in Nicole’s position on the table, and I imagined that my hand was one of my other classmates. In my daydream, my eyes were closed, so I didn’t know whose hand it was.After rubbing my clit for a while, I slid a finger inside my cunt, and found my own g-spot. I rubbed it as fast as I could. As I continued daydreaming about each of my classmates fingering my cunt, I came. But I wasn’t ready to be done, so I continued daydreaming and finger-fucking myself. I came a two more times, before finally deciding to stop. I was tired, so I fell asleep.Masturbation, sex toys, and orgasm.A few classes had passed since the class on the human anatomy. The next few topics were less interesting, but still very informative.First, we paired up in the same groups as before, and studied each other’s bodies closely, one on one. While interesting, if I wrote about that, it would be somewhat repetitive, so I’ll skip it.After that, we covered various measurement techniques, including shirt-sizes, pant-sizes, and especially bra-sizes. I found out during that class that I had been wearing the wrong bra-size for years. I thought I was a 34A or 32B, but really I’m more like a 28D. Bra sizes are confusing!We also covered some other important, but boring topics, such as reproduction and STDs. For a homework assignment, we were all required to get an tested for a variety of STDs, as a prerequisite for the rest of the course. That was due in three class periods.So, today’s story is about day seven of class.I was getting more comfortable with the class, so I didn’t arrive quite as early anymore, but I always arrive a bit before class, and today was no exception. I got there about five minutes before.Just like the past couple of classes, everyone that was already there had stripped to their birthday suits. I quickly found my seat, stripped off my clothes, put them in my bag, and sat down. I didn’t bother covering up anymore, because there was no real reason to. Everyone there had already seen it all, and nobody else was covering up. Thinking back on it, I’m actually somewhat surprised at how little time it took for each of us to get so comfortable in our nudity.At 7:01, Ms. Sharon walked in, with the same amount of clothes as the rest of us. I kind of wondered how early she got nude. Did she strip right before walking over to the class, or was she naked all morning? I hadn’t seen her with clothes on in so long, that I could no longer picture her wearing them.“Hello class,” she said, as she placed her bag in its usual spot on the table. “I’m glad to see you’re all comfortable being nude with your fellow classmates, because you will all be getting much more familiar with each other today. Our topic is masturbation, sex toys, and the orgasm."To start today’s class, we will discuss masturbation. Who here has masturbated before?” Almost everyone raised their hands. “Good. Those of you who say you haven’t, I don’t believe you. But in case you really haven’t, today will be the end of that."Everyone, please get in your normal masturbation positions. For those of you that say you haven’t ever done it: males generally grab their shaft and stroke it, and females either rub their clitoris or stick their fingers inside their vaginas, aka finger themselves.”We all did as Ms. Sharon said, placing our hands on our genitals, and we started to rub and stroke ourselves. I as a little hesitant at this, but once I’d seen many of my classmates (especially the boys) start in on themselves, I relaxed. I spread my legs, leaned back, put the first two fingers of my right hand on my clit, and started rubbing it in a small circle.“Good. I want you all to continue masturbating, but please save your orgasms until later. Now, I’m going to show you all several sex toys. For each toy, I will need one volunteer to demonstrate how it is used. In some cases, I will need two volunteers.”Ms. Sharon then reached into her bag, and pulled the first toy out. It was a simple, flesh-colored dildo, about 5.5 inches long, and 1.5 inches wide, with balls on the end. It looked much like some of the cocks I saw the boys holding in their hands. “This is a dildo. It is designed to simulate a male penis. Dildos come in many shapes, and sizes, and have a variety of features. This one is a simple one. Generally dildos are used by females, but some males use them as well."Now, who would like to demonstrate how this dildo is used?” Of course, nobody raised their hands. “Come on, people. This is the most basic toy I have. It only gets more complex from here.” After another moment, Sofia raised her hand.“Good, Sofia. Please come up here.” Sofia stood, walked to the front, and took a seat on the table. “Alright, Sofia. Have you used a dildo before?” She nodded. “Okay, then you know what to do. I’ve also brought some lubricant if anyone needs it. Everyone watch closely.”Sofia squirted a little lube on the dildo, opened her legs, and slid the dildo inside of her cunt. As she slid it in, she closed her eyes. She slowly slid it in and out. From her facial expressions, I could tell she was enjoying the feeling, but she was a bit embarrassed by being singled out like that. A moment later, we all heard her start moaning.After about a minute or so of Sofia fucking herself with the dildo, Ms. Sharon said, “Good, Sofia, that’s exactly right. Thank you for the demonstration. You may take your seat now.” Sofia pulled the dildo out of her cunt, and stood up. She offered it to Ms. Sharon, but she refused. “Oh, no. Please, keep it for the rest of class. That goes for everyone else who volunteers as well.”Sofia walked back to her seat, reinserted the dildo, and continued fucking herself.“Alright, next up, we have the vibrator,” said Ms. Sharon, as she pulled another dildo from her bag. This one was larger than the last; maybe 6 inches long and 2 inches wide. “This toy requires batteries, because when it’s switched on, it created a vibration throughout the rubber shaft, which most females enjoy. Additionally, this dildo has piece known as a rabbit ear, which rubs against a woman’s clitoris. Who would like to demonstrate the usage of this toy?”After a couple seconds, Latoya’s hand went up. Ms. Sharon nodded, and Latoya came to the front, taking a seat on the table.“Thank you Latoya,” said Ms. Sharon, as she passed the vibrator to Latoya. Latoya didn’t bother with the lube, since she was already quite wet on her own. She easily slid the large dildo inside her cunt. When it was all the way in, she turned a knob on it, and we all heard a buzzing sound, and saw Latoya’s head tilt back in pleasure.“Good, Latoya,” said Ms. Sharon, “Make sure you also rub the rabbit ear against your clitoris. Yes, just like that. Doesn’t that feel good?”Latoya nodded.“Alright, Latoya, you may take your seat.”Latoya took her seat, and Ms. Sharon continued, pulling the next toy out of her bag. It was about 7 inches long, with what looked like a cunt on one end. “Now, I don’t want the men in the room to feel left out, so next we have the fleshlight. This toy is designed to simulate the female vagina. Who would like to demonstrate its usage?”Tony Baker didn’t hesitate to stick his hand in the air.“Alright, Mr. Baker,” said Ms. Sharon. Tony walked to the front, and took the fleshlight from Ms. Sharon. He then placed it at the tip of his large cock, and slid himself inside it. He then jacked himself off with it, fucking the rubber vagina.“Excellent, Tony,” said Ms. Sharon. “This fleshlight also has a vibration feature. Let me switch that on for you.” She reached down, grabbing the fleshlight (and thus Tony’s cock), in her hand. She slid the toy up and down a couple times, before flipping a switch on the side of it. Instantly, Tony leaned back and started writhing in pleasure. Then she flipped it off.“Good, Tony. You may take your seat.” He did, as Ms. Sharon continued, pulling the next toy out of the bag. “This is sometimes called a magic wand. The tip of it vibrates with a much higher intensity than the dildos, and can be controlled by a switch on the handle. It is generally used by women to rub their clitoris. Who would like to volunteer to demonstrate the wand?”Nobody raised their hand, at first, but eventually Barbara volunteered. She stood, took the usual spot on the table, and spread her legs. Ms. Sharon handed her the wand, and Barbara turned it on and started rubbing it against her cunt. Ms. Sharon gave her a few tips before sending her back to her seat.“Next, we have our first two-person toy.” said Ms. Sharon, as she pulled two small, metal objects, about 2 inches long, out of her bag. “These are remote controlled vibrators. A girl inserts it into her vagina, and the remote controls the intensity of the vibration. It can be used by a single person, but today we will use it in pairs. I have two of them, so we need two females. Since our last toy also needs two females, I will ask for one female volunteer, and two males, please. I will be the other female.”Most of the boy’s hands shot up, but none of the girls. Ms. Sharon picked Filipe and Ken. After another moment, I decided to volunteer. I’d rather have this toy, than be forced into whatever the next one was.“Alright, Samantha, take a seat up here. We’ll both insert them at the same time.”I sat on the edge of the table, and spread my legs apart. Then, Ms. Sharon and I pushed the small metal devices completely into our cunts. Then we stood up.“How does that feel, Samantha?” asked Ms. Sharon.“A little cold, but fine otherwise,” I replied.“Good. Alright, Ken, you get my remote, and Filipe, you get Samantha’s.” She handed them to the students. “For the rest of today’s class, feel free to switch our toys on and off, and increase the intensity, whenever you’d like, but please refrain from making us orgasm until the end of class.”I started walking back to my seat. Both the boys looked at their remotes. Filipe asked, “Does this knob increase the intensity?” as he turned it all the way up.I lost my balance, and leaned on the table, as a loud moan escaped from my mouth. The vibration was very intense. “Yes, Ken,” I heard Ms. Sharon say, “that’s the intensity. You can see that at full blast, it’s hard for the receiver to do much of anything else.”“I see,” said Ken as he turned it down to about halfway. “Sorry about the surprise, Samantha. I just wanted to test it out.”I stood back up, and walked back to my seat, as I replied, “It’s alright.”Ms. Sharon said, “That’s exactly how it should be used: at random times, to surprise the receiver. However, please don’t disrupt the class.” She pulled the last toy from her bag. “As I said earlier, this last toy is designed to be used by two females. Since we only have two remaining, I’ll ask that Nicole and Amy please come up here now.”They were both a bit hesitant, but they didn’t have much choice. It had to be demonstrated, and there were only two cunts left that weren’t already full or being rubbed: Nicole’s and Amy’s. They both walked to the front, and waited for Ms. Sharon to give them instructions.“Thank you, both,” she said, holding up the final toy, “This is a double dildo. At either end, there is a cock-shaped rubber shaft, and in the middle there is a handle. Generally, this is used by two females, but you can use it alone as well. Both of you, please lie on the table, with your heads facing away from each other.”They did as Ms. Sharon said. The table was a bit small, so both of their heads were hanging off the ends. Once they were in position, Ms. Sharon continued.“Good. Now, please spread your legs, and scoot a little closer to each other.” They did so. “Thank you. I’ll start with Amy, and then Nicole.”Amy looked down and saw Ms. Sharon put some lube on the tip of one end, then put the tip of the dildo at the entrance of her cunt. Ms. Sharon slowly slid it inside of her.“Good. Now, I’m going to need to slide it all the way in, so I can get it to the entrance of Nicole’s hole.”I saw the dildo slide further and further into Amy’s cunt, and finally it stopped. Then Ms. Sharon put some lube on the other end, and slowly slid it into Nicole’s cunt. I heard both of them moan as it slid inside Nicole, and out of Amy.“Good.” said Ms. Sharon, “Thank you both. Now we’re ready to demonstrate. Everyone, please stand and; Oh!.” Ms. Sharon collapsed into the chair next to the desk.I looked over and Ken had a grin on his face. Then I felt my vibrator start up as well. It slowly increased, until I couldn’t take it. I started moaning again. The moans of Ms. Sharon and I continued, as Ken and Filipe both kept the vibrators at full intensity.Ken then stood and walked to the front of the class, and said, “I’ll take over for a moment, Ms. Sharon, if you don’t mind.” Ms. Sharon nodded, and put her hand on her cunt and started rubbing. “Good. I’ll tu

Anatomy Primer.Based on a post by smalltitslovr, in 4 parts. Listen to the ► Podcast at Steamy Stories.This time, I was last to go, and the only people left in the room were Nicole, Ms. Sharon, and I. I stepped between Nicole’s legs, which were now quivering from all the pleasure. About half-way through, Nicole started having trouble keeping them open, so Ms. Sharon was now standing on the other side of the desk from me, near Nicole’s head, holding each of Nicole’s ankles spread about three feet apart.“Hi Nicole.” I said to her, as I approached. “I’m the last one. Before I start, I was wondering how you feel.”Nicole weakly lifted her head to look at me. She was smiling, but she also looked quite tired. “Well, My legs are a little sore from being spread for so long. Also, my cunt is a little raw from all the different fingers being rubbed in and out of it. But overall, I feel amazing. I’ve never climaxed this many times in such a short amount of time before.”“So, I take it you’re still glad I ran into you in the library?” I asked.“Oh, definitely!” she exclaimed. “If I get to experience all this on just the first day, I can’t wait for what’s in store for us for the rest of the semester.”“Wow.” I said, smiling back at her. “I don’t know if I could take all the attention and stimulation you have had today. Well, I’ll hurry up and finish this, so we can leave.”“Thank you Samantha,” she replied. “But, since you’re last, make sure it’s a good one. I don’t want to leave here on a low note. If you make it good, I promise that I’ll pay you back for it another time.”I smiled and replied, “Deal.”I then reached up with my left hand and grabbed Nicole’s right tit, lightly caressing it. Then I rubbed the outside of Nicole’s cunt until I found her clitoris. As I rubbed her clit and her boob, she started to moan lightly.After about 45 seconds, I slowly inserted my index and middle fingers into Nicole’s gaping hole. Because of all the abuse her cunt had been given in the past ten minutes or so, it was quite loose, and very wet, but also quite red. I slid my fingers in and out of her hole a few times, before inserting a third finger. Then I rubbed around inside her cunt, until I found a slightly rough patch, which was also a little warmer from all the friction from the other students fingers. I rubbed it gently, which caused Nicole to moan louder, and start squirming. As I fingered her, I also rubbed her breast and lightly pinched her small nipple.I continued rubbing and finger-fucking Nicole for about two more minutes, until Nicole started screaming “I’m cumming! I’m cumming!”, while her body writhed as much as it could with Ms. Sharon still firmly holding Nicole’s legs. I was sure that nearby classrooms would hear her screams, and the movement of the table shaking beneath her, but she apparently didn’t care, and neither did Ms. Sharon.After Nicole’s final release of ecstasy, I removed my fingers, and Ms. Sharon released her grasp on Nicole’s ankles. Nicole lowered her legs, placing her feet on the ground, but still layed on the table, with her eyes closed.Ms. Sharon started packing her things into her bag, as she said, “Good class today, you two. Samantha, I want to thank you for introducing our class to Nicole and planting the idea of attending. And Nicole, I really want to thank you for your participation today. I know it must have been a bit awkward for all of your classmates to not only see every intimate detail of your body, but feel those parts, and bring you to several orgasms.”“No, Ms. Sharon. Thank you,” replied Nicole, as she stood and slowly walked over to her pile of clothes. “That was the best sexual experience I’ve had in my life so far, and I very much look forward to having even better ones in future classes. But right now, I really just want to take a nap.”“Well, I’d offer to let you stay in here, but there’s another class coming in here soon, and I think they’re covering some very conservative topic like History of Architecture or something. I’m sure they would be quite put off by your nudity.”“That’s alright.” replied Nicole with a smile, as she pulled on her tight yoga pants, without any panties underneath. “I don’t live far from campus. I’ll just go home and take a nap.”“One more thing before you go, Nicole.” said Ms. Sharon as she was finishing packing her bag. “In the last class, I mentioned to everyone else that there’s an extra credit opportunity for anyone willing to participate in some sexual studies. I think you would be an excellent candidate for those studies. Please consider it.”“I will.” said Nicole as she pulled her sports bra on. She picked up her shirt, and looked at it “You know; I really don’t feel like wearing this. I think I’ll walk home without it.”At this point I had pulled on my clothes, so Nicole and I were dressed. The three of us departed the room together. Ms. Sharon didn’t bring any clothes, so she walked out naked, but she said her office wasn’t far, and the faculty in her department were used to it. I walked with Nicole, chatting about the experience, until we got to a place where we parted ways.I then walked back to my dorm. When I arrived, I stripped out of my clothes, and laid down on my bed, immediately putting my hand on my cunt. I imitated what I did to Nicole earlier, and rubbed my clit. With my eyes closed, I was imagining being in Nicole’s position on the table, and I imagined that my hand was one of my other classmates. In my daydream, my eyes were closed, so I didn’t know whose hand it was.After rubbing my clit for a while, I slid a finger inside my cunt, and found my own g-spot. I rubbed it as fast as I could. As I continued daydreaming about each of my classmates fingering my cunt, I came. But I wasn’t ready to be done, so I continued daydreaming and finger-fucking myself. I came a two more times, before finally deciding to stop. I was tired, so I fell asleep.Masturbation, sex toys, and orgasm.A few classes had passed since the class on the human anatomy. The next few topics were less interesting, but still very informative.First, we paired up in the same groups as before, and studied each other’s bodies closely, one on one. While interesting, if I wrote about that, it would be somewhat repetitive, so I’ll skip it.After that, we covered various measurement techniques, including shirt-sizes, pant-sizes, and especially bra-sizes. I found out during that class that I had been wearing the wrong bra-size for years. I thought I was a 34A or 32B, but really I’m more like a 28D. Bra sizes are confusing!We also covered some other important, but boring topics, such as reproduction and STDs. For a homework assignment, we were all required to get an tested for a variety of STDs, as a prerequisite for the rest of the course. That was due in three class periods.So, today’s story is about day seven of class.I was getting more comfortable with the class, so I didn’t arrive quite as early anymore, but I always arrive a bit before class, and today was no exception. I got there about five minutes before.Just like the past couple of classes, everyone that was already there had stripped to their birthday suits. I quickly found my seat, stripped off my clothes, put them in my bag, and sat down. I didn’t bother covering up anymore, because there was no real reason to. Everyone there had already seen it all, and nobody else was covering up. Thinking back on it, I’m actually somewhat surprised at how little time it took for each of us to get so comfortable in our nudity.At 7:01, Ms. Sharon walked in, with the same amount of clothes as the rest of us. I kind of wondered how early she got nude. Did she strip right before walking over to the class, or was she naked all morning? I hadn’t seen her with clothes on in so long, that I could no longer picture her wearing them.“Hello class,” she said, as she placed her bag in its usual spot on the table. “I’m glad to see you’re all comfortable being nude with your fellow classmates, because you will all be getting much more familiar with each other today. Our topic is masturbation, sex toys, and the orgasm."To start today’s class, we will discuss masturbation. Who here has masturbated before?” Almost everyone raised their hands. “Good. Those of you who say you haven’t, I don’t believe you. But in case you really haven’t, today will be the end of that."Everyone, please get in your normal masturbation positions. For those of you that say you haven’t ever done it: males generally grab their shaft and stroke it, and females either rub their clitoris or stick their fingers inside their vaginas, aka finger themselves.”We all did as Ms. Sharon said, placing our hands on our genitals, and we started to rub and stroke ourselves. I as a little hesitant at this, but once I’d seen many of my classmates (especially the boys) start in on themselves, I relaxed. I spread my legs, leaned back, put the first two fingers of my right hand on my clit, and started rubbing it in a small circle.“Good. I want you all to continue masturbating, but please save your orgasms until later. Now, I’m going to show you all several sex toys. For each toy, I will need one volunteer to demonstrate how it is used. In some cases, I will need two volunteers.”Ms. Sharon then reached into her bag, and pulled the first toy out. It was a simple, flesh-colored dildo, about 5.5 inches long, and 1.5 inches wide, with balls on the end. It looked much like some of the cocks I saw the boys holding in their hands. “This is a dildo. It is designed to simulate a male penis. Dildos come in many shapes, and sizes, and have a variety of features. This one is a simple one. Generally dildos are used by females, but some males use them as well."Now, who would like to demonstrate how this dildo is used?” Of course, nobody raised their hands. “Come on, people. This is the most basic toy I have. It only gets more complex from here.” After another moment, Sofia raised her hand.“Good, Sofia. Please come up here.” Sofia stood, walked to the front, and took a seat on the table. “Alright, Sofia. Have you used a dildo before?” She nodded. “Okay, then you know what to do. I’ve also brought some lubricant if anyone needs it. Everyone watch closely.”Sofia squirted a little lube on the dildo, opened her legs, and slid the dildo inside of her cunt. As she slid it in, she closed her eyes. She slowly slid it in and out. From her facial expressions, I could tell she was enjoying the feeling, but she was a bit embarrassed by being singled out like that. A moment later, we all heard her start moaning.After about a minute or so of Sofia fucking herself with the dildo, Ms. Sharon said, “Good, Sofia, that’s exactly right. Thank you for the demonstration. You may take your seat now.” Sofia pulled the dildo out of her cunt, and stood up. She offered it to Ms. Sharon, but she refused. “Oh, no. Please, keep it for the rest of class. That goes for everyone else who volunteers as well.”Sofia walked back to her seat, reinserted the dildo, and continued fucking herself.“Alright, next up, we have the vibrator,” said Ms. Sharon, as she pulled another dildo from her bag. This one was larger than the last; maybe 6 inches long and 2 inches wide. “This toy requires batteries, because when it’s switched on, it created a vibration throughout the rubber shaft, which most females enjoy. Additionally, this dildo has piece known as a rabbit ear, which rubs against a woman’s clitoris. Who would like to demonstrate the usage of this toy?”After a couple seconds, Latoya’s hand went up. Ms. Sharon nodded, and Latoya came to the front, taking a seat on the table.“Thank you Latoya,” said Ms. Sharon, as she passed the vibrator to Latoya. Latoya didn’t bother with the lube, since she was already quite wet on her own. She easily slid the large dildo inside her cunt. When it was all the way in, she turned a knob on it, and we all heard a buzzing sound, and saw Latoya’s head tilt back in pleasure.“Good, Latoya,” said Ms. Sharon, “Make sure you also rub the rabbit ear against your clitoris. Yes, just like that. Doesn’t that feel good?”Latoya nodded.“Alright, Latoya, you may take your seat.”Latoya took her seat, and Ms. Sharon continued, pulling the next toy out of her bag. It was about 7 inches long, with what looked like a cunt on one end. “Now, I don’t want the men in the room to feel left out, so next we have the fleshlight. This toy is designed to simulate the female vagina. Who would like to demonstrate its usage?”Tony Baker didn’t hesitate to stick his hand in the air.“Alright, Mr. Baker,” said Ms. Sharon. Tony walked to the front, and took the fleshlight from Ms. Sharon. He then placed it at the tip of his large cock, and slid himself inside it. He then jacked himself off with it, fucking the rubber vagina.“Excellent, Tony,” said Ms. Sharon. “This fleshlight also has a vibration feature. Let me switch that on for you.” She reached down, grabbing the fleshlight (and thus Tony’s cock), in her hand. She slid the toy up and down a couple times, before flipping a switch on the side of it. Instantly, Tony leaned back and started writhing in pleasure. Then she flipped it off.“Good, Tony. You may take your seat.” He did, as Ms. Sharon continued, pulling the next toy out of the bag. “This is sometimes called a magic wand. The tip of it vibrates with a much higher intensity than the dildos, and can be controlled by a switch on the handle. It is generally used by women to rub their clitoris. Who would like to volunteer to demonstrate the wand?”Nobody raised their hand, at first, but eventually Barbara volunteered. She stood, took the usual spot on the table, and spread her legs. Ms. Sharon handed her the wand, and Barbara turned it on and started rubbing it against her cunt. Ms. Sharon gave her a few tips before sending her back to her seat.“Next, we have our first two-person toy.” said Ms. Sharon, as she pulled two small, metal objects, about 2 inches long, out of her bag. “These are remote controlled vibrators. A girl inserts it into her vagina, and the remote controls the intensity of the vibration. It can be used by a single person, but today we will use it in pairs. I have two of them, so we need two females. Since our last toy also needs two females, I will ask for one female volunteer, and two males, please. I will be the other female.”Most of the boy’s hands shot up, but none of the girls. Ms. Sharon picked Filipe and Ken. After another moment, I decided to volunteer. I’d rather have this toy, than be forced into whatever the next one was.“Alright, Samantha, take a seat up here. We’ll both insert them at the same time.”I sat on the edge of the table, and spread my legs apart. Then, Ms. Sharon and I pushed the small metal devices completely into our cunts. Then we stood up.“How does that feel, Samantha?” asked Ms. Sharon.“A little cold, but fine otherwise,” I replied.“Good. Alright, Ken, you get my remote, and Filipe, you get Samantha’s.” She handed them to the students. “For the rest of today’s class, feel free to switch our toys on and off, and increase the intensity, whenever you’d like, but please refrain from making us orgasm until the end of class.”I started walking back to my seat. Both the boys looked at their remotes. Filipe asked, “Does this knob increase the intensity?” as he turned it all the way up.I lost my balance, and leaned on the table, as a loud moan escaped from my mouth. The vibration was very intense. “Yes, Ken,” I heard Ms. Sharon say, “that’s the intensity. You can see that at full blast, it’s hard for the receiver to do much of anything else.”“I see,” said Ken as he turned it down to about halfway. “Sorry about the surprise, Samantha. I just wanted to test it out.”I stood back up, and walked back to my seat, as I replied, “It’s alright.”Ms. Sharon said, “That’s exactly how it should be used: at random times, to surprise the receiver. However, please don’t disrupt the class.” She pulled the last toy from her bag. “As I said earlier, this last toy is designed to be used by two females. Since we only have two remaining, I’ll ask that Nicole and Amy please come up here now.”They were both a bit hesitant, but they didn’t have much choice. It had to be demonstrated, and there were only two cunts left that weren’t already full or being rubbed: Nicole’s and Amy’s. They both walked to the front, and waited for Ms. Sharon to give them instructions.“Thank you, both,” she said, holding up the final toy, “This is a double dildo. At either end, there is a cock-shaped rubber shaft, and in the middle there is a handle. Generally, this is used by two females, but you can use it alone as well. Both of you, please lie on the table, with your heads facing away from each other.”They did as Ms. Sharon said. The table was a bit small, so both of their heads were hanging off the ends. Once they were in position, Ms. Sharon continued.“Good. Now, please spread your legs, and scoot a little closer to each other.” They did so. “Thank you. I’ll start with Amy, and then Nicole.”Amy looked down and saw Ms. Sharon put some lube on the tip of one end, then put the tip of the dildo at the entrance of her cunt. Ms. Sharon slowly slid it inside of her.“Good. Now, I’m going to need to slide it all the way in, so I can get it to the entrance of Nicole’s hole.”I saw the dildo slide further and further into Amy’s cunt, and finally it stopped. Then Ms. Sharon put some lube on the other end, and slowly slid it into Nicole’s cunt. I heard both of them moan as it slid inside Nicole, and out of Amy.“Good.” said Ms. Sharon, “Thank you both. Now we’re ready to demonstrate. Everyone, please stand and; Oh!.” Ms. Sharon collapsed into the chair next to the desk.I looked over and Ken had a grin on his face. Then I felt my vibrator start up as well. It slowly increased, until I couldn’t take it. I started moaning again. The moans of Ms. Sharon and I continued, as Ken and Filipe both kept the vibrators at full intensity.Ken then stood and walked to the front of the class, and said, “I’ll take over for a moment, Ms. Sharon, if you don’t mind.” Ms. Sharon nodded, and put her hand on her cunt and started rubbing. “Good. I’ll tu

A new Apple Music Connect as a promotional platform for artists and labels, has been announced. Rivian are launching an Apple Watch app to control vehicle functions despite rejecting CarPlay. Apple Podcasts is native video support. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Eric Bolden, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, and Jim Rea discuss all of these, debating discoverability in music streaming, the logic behind Rivian's ecosystem choices, and whether Apple's move into video podcasts can compete with platforms like YouTube and Spotify. Today's edition of MacVoices is supported by MacVoices Live!, our weekly live panel discussion of what is going in the Apple space as well as the larger tech world, and how it is impacting you. Join us live at YouTube.com/MacVoicesTV at 8 PM Eastern 5 PM Pacific, or whatever time that is wherever you are and participate in the chat, or catch the edited and segmented versions of the show on the regular MacVoices channels and feeds. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Episode introduction and topics overview00:06 Welcome and live panel setup01:22 Panel introductions and opening conversation03:16 Owl encounter story and lighthearted banter05:04 Apple Music Connect returns as a promotional tool06:22 Discoverability challenges in music streaming08:01 Social media vs promotional tools for artists09:58 Why earlier Apple music promotion efforts failed11:06 Apple's strengths in promotion vs social platforms12:32 Rivian launches Apple Watch vehicle control app13:43 Rivian's refusal to adopt CarPlay debated15:25 Third-party attempts to add CarPlay to Rivian16:56 Cars as platforms vs phones as peripherals19:34 Ecosystem conflicts in automotive tech20:20 Apple Podcasts adds video support21:20 Early impressions of video podcast playback22:25 Creator questions about editing and distribution25:18 Workflows for audio vs video podcast production28:11 Impact on competing podcast apps29:18 Spotify vs Apple approaches to video podcasts30:34 Is YouTube still the dominant video platform?34:15 Early video podcast history and experimentation35:59 Bandwidth and storage implications for video podcasts Links:   Apple Music Connect Launches as Promotional Resource for Labels and Distributorshttps://www.macrumors.com/2026/02/18/apple-music-connect-launched-for-labels/ Rivian rolls out an Apple Watch app with vehicle controls and digital key supporthttps://www.engadget.com/transportation/evs/rivian-rolls-out-an-apple-watch-app-with-vehicle-controls-and-digital-key-support-172642545.html Apple is getting video in podcasts (at last)https://www.applemust.com/apple-is-getting-video-in-podcasts-at-last/ Guests: Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

A new Apple Music Connect as a promotional platform for artists and labels, has been announced. Rivian are launching an Apple Watch app to control vehicle functions despite rejecting CarPlay. Apple Podcasts is native video support. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Eric Bolden, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, and Jim Rea discuss all of these, debating discoverability in music streaming, the logic behind Rivian's ecosystem choices, and whether Apple's move into video podcasts can compete with platforms like YouTube and Spotify. Today's edition of MacVoices is supported by MacVoices Live!, our weekly live panel discussion of what is going in the Apple space as well as the larger tech world, and how it is impacting you. Join us live at YouTube.com/MacVoicesTV at 8 PM Eastern 5 PM Pacific, or whatever time that is wherever you are and participate in the chat, or catch the edited and segmented versions of the show on the regular MacVoices channels and feeds. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Episode introduction and topics overview 00:06 Welcome and live panel setup 01:22 Panel introductions and opening conversation 03:16 Owl encounter story and lighthearted banter 05:04 Apple Music Connect returns as a promotional tool 06:22 Discoverability challenges in music streaming 08:01 Social media vs promotional tools for artists 09:58 Why earlier Apple music promotion efforts failed 11:06 Apple's strengths in promotion vs social platforms 12:32 Rivian launches Apple Watch vehicle control app 13:43 Rivian's refusal to adopt CarPlay debated 15:25 Third-party attempts to add CarPlay to Rivian 16:56 Cars as platforms vs phones as peripherals 19:34 Ecosystem conflicts in automotive tech 20:20 Apple Podcasts adds video support 21:20 Early impressions of video podcast playback 22:25 Creator questions about editing and distribution 25:18 Workflows for audio vs video podcast production 28:11 Impact on competing podcast apps 29:18 Spotify vs Apple approaches to video podcasts 30:34 Is YouTube still the dominant video platform? 34:15 Early video podcast history and experimentation 35:59 Bandwidth and storage implications for video podcasts Links:   Apple Music Connect Launches as Promotional Resource for Labels and Distributors https://www.macrumors.com/2026/02/18/apple-music-connect-launched-for-labels/ Rivian rolls out an Apple Watch app with vehicle controls and digital key support https://www.engadget.com/transportation/evs/rivian-rolls-out-an-apple-watch-app-with-vehicle-controls-and-digital-key-support-172642545.html Apple is getting video in podcasts (at last) https://www.applemust.com/apple-is-getting-video-in-podcasts-at-last/ Guests: Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

This show has been flagged as Clean by the host. In our next look at the game mechanics for Civilization V we examine a new feature in Civilization 5, City-States. These are independent cities controlled by the computer that are also players to some degree in the game, and you can interact with them. And they are key to winning a Diplomatic Victory. Playing Civilization V, Part 9 - City States This was a newly introduced feature in Civ 5, and they play an important role in the game. They represent the small countries that are not running the world. They do not produce Settlers, so they do not expand beyond the one city, though that city can, and will expand its borders in a similar way to how your cities can grow. They do not start with a military unit, but they can produce military units and defend themselves. They can also build buildings in the city, but not Wonders. They do have a single vote each in the World Congress (or later the United Nations), making them a key to a Diplomatic victory. City States start out neutral with regards to the players, but your interactions with them can affect how they feel about you. For example, if you send units through their territory they will get hostile, but if you give them gifts they will get friendly. And if you wish you can go to war with them and take them over. This will affect your diplomatic relations with other players and other city states, but if you have decided on a war of conquest as your victory type, that won't matter to you, right? As mentioned, if you want to go for a Diplomatic victory you want to be allied with as many of them as possible to get their votes in the World Congress or the United Nations. But even if you don't need their votes, there are other benefits from friendly relations. There are two levels to friendly relations: Friendly, and Allied, and the benefits get better as the relations improve. City State Types With the expansions there are 5 types of City State: Militaristic, Maritime, Cultured, Mercantile, and Religious. The benefits you get are: Militaristic – If you are friends the city state will periodically gift you a unit, which will appear in your city which is closest to the city state. If you are allies the units will show up more often. Maritime – If you are friends they will add two food to your Capital city. If you are allies they will add one more food to every city you have. Cultured city states share their culture with you, at one rate if you are friends and at double the rate if you are allies. Mercantile city states give you an added 3 Happiness when you are friends. If you are allies you keep the added happiness, but in addition get access to a luxury resource that cannot be obtained any other way, and that also adds Happiness. Religious city states give you a one-time bonus of Faith when you first meet them, then provide added Faith per turn. Note that Cultured and Religious city states increase the amount of Culture or Faith they provide with each new era, so the earlier you develop your relations with them the better the benefit. Managing Relations With City States There is a mechanism in the game which keeps track of points to define your relations with city states. On this numerical scale, Neutral has a value of 0, Friendly 30 or above, and Allied 60 or above. In the other direction, once you go into negative numbers they become Angry, if if you go negative enough it becomes War. A city state can only ever have one ally. If only one player has more than 60 influence points, that player will become the patron of the city state and they will ally to that player. If two or more players have more than 60 influence points, the player with the most points gets the ally. As the game goes on, you may get a message that a city state you had as an ally has suddenly allied to someone else. This is the result of the other player gaining influence points in some way, often by gifts. You can also gain influence points by promising to protect a city state, but do this with your eyes open. If you do not follow through on your promise it will enrage the city state and you will lose a lot of influence with them. Your influence with a city state has a natural resting point at 0, or Neutral. That means that barring other factors, a positive number will fall over time, and a negative number will rise over time. So if you sent one of your units through their territory they will be angry for a period, but if nothing else happens they will return to Neutral. But on the other side, you don't stay allied with them forever unless you find ways to keep adding influence points. One way is to eliminate barbarian camps near to the city state. In fact, this is one exception to the rule about sending units through their territory. If you are doing it to attack the barbarians, you are seen as a protector, not an invader, and there is no penalty. Another way to gain influence is by completing a quest from a city state. Each city state you are in contact with will periodically give you a quest, and if you fulfill it you will gain influence points. This can include killing a barbarian camp or killing nearby barbarian units (though you can do that at any time, you don't need a quest). Some others include acquiring a Great Person of a certain kind, building a certain World Wonder, bullying another city state, finding a Natural Wonder, and so on. You do not need to fulfill a quest. For example, if your strategy calls for allying with other city states, you might want to pass on bullying another city state. There is no penalty for not fulfilling a quest, just a bonus when you do fulfill one. Another way to gain influence is with gifts. The most effective is Gold, and one large sum is more effective than several small ones. For a Diplomatic victory strategy, you should plan on having a large Treasury as you approach the end game so that you can buy allies in time for the crucial vote. You can also gain a small amount of influence points by gifting units. I make it a practice to do this whenever I have units that I don't want any longer. These could be obsolete units that have no upgrade path, for instance. I don't want to pay maintenance on them as that is a drain on my Treasury, and I could just delete them, but gifting them to a city state gives me a small amount of influence. Another way to get a big jump in your influence with a city state is to capture and then a return one of their Workers. Most often this happens when a barbarian has captured the Worker, and then you capture it. You have the option of keeping the Worker for yourself, and in the early game I would probably do that because the Worker is so valuable. But at a certain point I have enough Workers, and getting the 45 influence points for returning it starts to be more effective. Remember that you have to keep earning influence points to keep up your relations, so even if you get an ally of a city state for a few turns. it will naturally decay back to Neutral. By around the middle of the game if you playing well you can start to invest the resources needed to maintain your relationships. City States and War If you are allied with a city state and you get into a war with another player, a city state you are allied with will join you in the war. Of course, the same is true for the other player, so the war between the two players could also involve 3-4 city states dragged in as allies. You cannot make peace with a city state while it is allied to a player you are at war with. You have to first make peace with that player (or wipe them out if that suits you). However, if you can get more influence with that city state and supplant the other player you can get that city state to ally with you can turn around and attack your enemy. Generally a large cash gift can do this, once again showing the utility of a fat Treasury. Exploration You cannot have diplomatic relations with a city state you haven't met, so this reinforces the idea that you have to explore the map as soon as possible. Of course, you have to balance this with other priorities, such as expanding your cities and defending them, but finding the right balance is what all the Civilization games are about. On most maps this means you should be giving some attention to developing your naval power and technologies. There seems to be a bias to city states being coastal, and in many cases they are on small islands. Of course there are a number of motivations for exploring the map. First of all, you need intelligence of what you are up against with the other players. And unless you are on a very large land mass, you will want to find added lands for settlement. Finding Natural Wonders adds to Happiness in your Empire, so finding them all is important. And last, the unexplored sections of the map have a strong tendency to spawn barbarian units against you. Early on you cannot traverse Ocean tiles and need to stick to Coastal tiles. The unit here is the Trireme, which you can build once you discover Sailing. I will usually build 1-2 Triremes in a coastal city to go around the coast of the land mass I am on and scout out the situation. If another land mass or island is sufficiently close I can cross to it without entering an Ocean tile and extend my exploration. But to really explore the whole map you need to get to Caravels. This Renaissance Era unit becomes available when you discover Astronomy, and is essentially a naval scouting unit. It can enter Ocean tiles. Links: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/City-state_(Civ5) https://civ-5-cbp.fandom.com/wiki/Detailed_Guide_to_Diplomacy https://www.palain.com/gaming/civilization-v/playing-civilization-v-part-9/ Provide feedback on this episode.

The reception to our recent post on Code Reviews has been strong. Catch up!Amid a maelstrom of discussion on whether or not AI is killing SaaS, one of the top publicly listed SaaS companies in the world has just reported record revenues, clearing well over $1.1B in ARR for the first time with a 28% margin. As we comment on the pod, Aaron Levie is the rare public company CEO equally at home in both worlds of Silicon Valley and Wall Street/Main Street, by day helping 70% of the Fortune 500 with their Enterprise Advanced Suite, and yet by night is often found in the basements of early startups and tweeting viral insights about the future of agents.Now that both Cursor, Cloudflare, Perplexity, Anthropic and more have made Filesystems and Sandboxes and various forms of “Just Give the Agent a Box” cool (not just cool; it is now one of the single hottest areas in AI infrastructure growing 100% MoM), we find it a delightfully appropriate time to do the episode with the OG CEO who has been giving humans and computers Boxes since he was a college dropout pitching VCs at a Michael Arrington house party.Enjoy our special pod, with fan favorite returning guest/guest cohost Jeff Huber!Note: We didn't directly discuss the AI vs SaaS debate - Aaron has done many, many, many other podcasts on that, and you should read his definitive essay on it. Most commentators do not understand SaaS businesses because they have never scaled one themselves, and deeply reflected on what the true value proposition of SaaS is.We also discuss Your Company is a Filesystem:We also shoutout CTO Ben Kus' and the AI team, who talked about the technical architecture and will return for AIE WF 2026.Full Video EpisodeTimestamps* 00:00 Adapting Work for Agents* 01:29 Why Every Agent Needs a Box* 04:38 Agent Governance and Identity* 11:28 Why Coding Agents Took Off First* 21:42 Context Engineering and Search Limits* 31:29 Inside Agent Evals* 33:23 Industries and Datasets* 35:22 Building the Agent Team* 38:50 Read Write Agent Workflows* 41:54 Docs Graphs and Founder Mode* 55:38 Token FOMO Culture* 56:31 Production Function Secrets* 01:01:08 Film Roots to Box* 01:03:38 AI Future of Movies* 01:06:47 Media DevRel and EngineeringTranscriptAdapting Work for AgentsAaron Levie: Like you don't write code, you talk to an agent and it goes and does it for you, and you may be at best review it. That's even probably like, like largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective. In that model, the agent didn't really adapt to how we work.We basically adapted to how the agent works. All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution. Right now, it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kinda wired into doing this ‘cause you'll see compounding returns. But that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.swyx: Welcome to the Lane Space Pod. We're back in the chroma studio with uh, chroma, CEO, Jeff Hoover. Welcome returning guest now guest host.Aaron Levie: It's a pleasure. Wow. How'd you get upgraded to, uh, to that?swyx: Because he's like the perfect guy to be guest those for you.Aaron Levie: That makes sense actually, for We love context. We, we both really love context le we really do.We really do.swyx: Uh, and we're here with, uh, Aaron Levy. Welcome.Aaron Levie: Thank you. Good to, uh, good to be [00:01:00] here.swyx: Uh, yeah. So we've all met offline and like chatted a little bit, but like, it's always nice to get these things in person and conversation. Yeah. You just started off with so much energy. You're, you're super excited about agents.I loveAaron Levie: agents.swyx: Yeah. Open claw. Just got by, got bought by OpenAI. No, not bought, but you know, you know what I mean?Aaron Levie: Some, some, you know, acquihire. Executiveswyx: hire.Aaron Levie: Executive hire. Okay. Executive hire. Say,swyx: hey, that's my term. Okay. Um, what are you pounding the table on on agents? You have so many insightful tweets.Why Every Agent Needs a BoxAaron Levie: Well, the thing that, that we get super excited by that I think is probably, you know, should be relatively obvious is we've, we've built a platform to help enterprises manage their files and their, their corporate files and the permissions of who has access to those files and the sharing collaboration of those files.All of those files contain really, really important information for the enterprise. It might have your contracts, it might have your research materials, it might have marketing information, it might have your memos. All that data obviously has, you know, predominantly been used by humans. [00:02:00] But there's been one really interesting problem, which is that, you know, humans only really work with their files during an active engagement with them, and they kind of go away and you don't really see them for a long time.And all of a sudden, uh, with the power of AI and AI agents, all of that data becomes extremely relevant as this ongoing source of, of answers to new questions of data that will transform into, into something else that, that produces value in your organization. It, it contains the answer to the new employee that's onboarding, that needs to ramp up on a project.Um, it contains the answer to the right thing to sell a customer when you're having a conversation to them, with them contains the roadmap information that's gonna produce the next feature. So all that data. That previously we've been just sort of storing and, and you know, occasionally forgetting about, ‘cause we're only working on the new active stuff.All of that information becomes valuable to the enterprise and it's gonna become extremely valuable to end users because now they can have agents go find what they're looking for and produce new, new [00:03:00] value and new data on that information. And it's gonna become incredibly valuable to agents because agents can roam around and do a bunch of work and they're gonna need access to that data as well.And um, and you know, sometimes that will be an agent that is sort of working on behalf of, of, of you and, and effectively as you as and, and they are kind of accessing all of the same information that you have access to and, and operating as you in the system. And then sometimes there's gonna be agents that are just.Effectively autonomous and kind of run on their own and, and you're gonna collaborate and work with them kind of like you did another person. Open Claw being the most recent and maybe first real sort of, you know, kind of, you know, up updating everybody's, you know, views of this landscape version of, of what that could look like, which is, okay, I have an agent.It's on its own system, it's on its own computer, it has access to its own tools. I probably don't give it access to my entire life. I probably communicate with it like I would an assistant or a colleague and then it, it sort of has this sandbox environment. So all of that has massive implications for a platform that manage that [00:04:00] enterprise data.We think it's gonna just transform how we work with all of the enterprise content that we work with, and we just have to make sure we're building the right platform to support that.swyx: The sort of shorthand I put it is as people build agents, everybody's just realizing that every agent needs a box. Yes.And it's nice to be called box and just give everyone a box.Aaron Levie: Hey, I if I, you know, if we can make that go viral, uh, like I, I think that that terminology, I, that's theswyx: tagline. Every agentAaron Levie: needs a box. Every agent needs a box. If we can make that the headline of this, I'm fine with this. And that's the billboard I wanna like Yeah, exactly.Every agent needs a box. Um, I like it. Can we ship this? Like,swyx: okay, let's do it. Yeah.Aaron Levie: Uh, my work here is done and I got the value I needed outta this podcast Drinks.swyx: Yeah.Agent Governance and IdentityAaron Levie: But, but, um, but, but, you know, so the thing that we, we kind of think about is, um, is, you know, whether you think the number 10 x or a hundred x or whatever the number is, we're gonna have some order of magnitude more agents than people.That's inevitable. It has to happen. So then the question is, what is the infrastructure that's needed to make all those agents effective in the enterprise? Make sure that they are well governed. Make sure they're only doing [00:05:00] safe things on your information. Make sure that they're not getting exposed. The data that they shouldn't have access to.There's gonna be just incredibly spectacularly crazy security incidents that will happen with agents because you'll prompt, inject an agent and sort of find your way through the CRM system and pull out data that you shouldn't have access to. Oh, weJeff Huber: have God,Aaron Levie: right? I mean, that's just gonna happen all over the place, right?So, so then the thing is, is how do you make sure you have the right security, the permissions, the access controls, the data governance. Um, we actually don't yet exactly know in many cases how we're gonna regulate some of these agents, right? If you think about an agent in financial services, does it have the exact same financial sort of, uh, requirements that a human did?Or is it, is the risk fully on the human that was interacting or created the agent? All open questions, but no matter what, there's gonna need to be a layer that manages the, the data they have access to, the workflows that they're involved in, pulling up data from multiple systems. This is the new infrastructure opportunity in the era of agents.swyx: You have a piece on agent identities, [00:06:00] which I think was today, um, which I think a lot of breaking news, the security, security people are talking about, right? Like you basically, I, I always think of this as like, well you need the human you and then there you need the agent. YouAaron Levie: Yes.swyx: And uh, well, I don't know if it's that simple, but is box going to have an opinion on that or you're just gonna be like, well we're just the sort of the, the source layer.Yeah. Let's Okta of zero handle that.Aaron Levie: I think we're gonna have an opinion and we will work with generally wherever the contours of the market end up. Um, and the reason that we're gonna have an opinion more than other topics probably is because one of the biggest use cases for why your agent might need it, an identity is for file system access.So thus we have to kind of think about this pretty deeply. And I think, uh, unless you're like in our world thinking about this particular problem all day long, it might be, you know, like, why is this such a big deal? And the reason why it's a really big deal is because sometimes sort of say, well just give the agent an, an account on the system and it just treats, treat it like every other type of user on the system.The [00:07:00] problem is, is that I as Aaron don't really have any responsibility over anybody else's box account in our organization. I can't see the box account of any other employee that I work with. I am not liable for anything that they do. And they have, I have, I have, you know, strict privacy requirements on everything that they're able to, you know, that, that, that they work on.Agents don't have that, you know, don't have those properties. The person who creates the agent probably is gonna, for the foreseeable future, take on a lot of the liability of what that agent does. That agent doesn't deserve any privacy because, because it's, you know, it can't fully be autonomously operated and it doesn't have any legal, you know, kind of, you know, responsibility.So thus you can't just be like, oh, well I'll just create a bunch of accounts and then I'll, I'll kind of work with that agent and I'll talk to it occasionally. Like you need oversight of that. And so then the question is, how do you have a world where the agent, sometimes you have oversight of, but what if that agent goes and works with other people?That person over there is collaborating with the agent on something you shouldn't have [00:08:00] access to what they're doing. So we have all of these new boundaries that we're gonna have to figure out of, of, you know, it's really, really easy. So far we've been in, in easy mode. We've hit the easy button with ai, which is the agent just is you.And when you're in quad code and you're in cursor, and you're in Codex, you're just, the agent is you. You're offing into your services. It can do everything you can do. That's the easy mode. The hard mode is agents are kind of running on their own. People check in with them occasionally, they're doing things autonomously.How do you give them access to resources in the enterprise and not dramatically increased the security risk and the risk that you might expose the wrong thing to somebody. These are all the new problems that we have to get solved. I like the identity layer and, and identity vendors as being a solution to that, but we'll, we'll need some opinions as well because so many of the use cases are these collaborative file system use cases, which is how do I give it an agent, a subset of my data?Give it its own workspace as well. ‘cause it's gonna need to store off its own information that would be relevant for it. And how do I have the right oversight into that? [00:09:00]Jeff Huber: One thing, which, um, I think is kind interesting, think about is that you know, how humans work, right? Like I may not also just like give you access to the whole file.I might like sit next to you and like scroll to this like one part of the file and just show you that like one part and like, you know,swyx: partial file access.Jeff Huber: I'm just saying I think like our, like RA does seem to be dead, right? Like you wanna say something is dead uhhuh probably RA is dead. And uh, like the auth story to me seems like incredibly unsolved and unaddressed by like the existing state of like AI vendors.ButAaron Levie: yeah, I think, um, we're, I mean you're taking obviously really to level limit that we probably need to solve for. Yeah. And we built an access control system that was, was kind of like, you know, its own little world for, for a long time. And um, and the idea was this, it's a many to many collaboration system where I can give you any part of the file system.And it's a waterfall model. So if I give you higher up in the, in the, in the system, you get everything below. And that, that kind of created immense flexibility because I can kind of point you to any layer in the, in the tree, but then you're gonna get access to everything kind of below it. And that [00:10:00] mostly is, is working in this, in this world.But you do have to manage this issue, which is how do I create an agent that has access to some of my stuff and somebody else's stuff as well. Mm-hmm. And which parts do I get to look at as the creator of the agent? And, and these are just brand new problems? Yeah. Crazy. And humans, when there was a human there that was really easy to do.Like, like if the three of us were all sharing, there'd be a Venn diagram where we'd have an overlapping set of things we've shared, but then we'd have our own ways that we shared with each other. In an agent world, somebody needs to take responsibility for what that agent has access to and what they're working on.These are like the, some of the most probably, you know, boring problems for 98% of people on, on the internet, but they will be the problems that are the difference between can you actually have autonomous agents in an enterprise contextswyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: That are not leaking your data constantly.swyx: No. Like, I mean, you know, I run a very, very small company for my conference and like we already have data sensitivity issues.Yes. And some of my team members cannot see Yes. Uh, the others and like, I can't imagine what it's like to run a Fortune 500 and like, you have to [00:11:00] worry about this. I'm just kinda curious, like you, you talked to a lot like, like 70, 80% of your cus uh, of the Fortune 500, your customers.Aaron Levie: Yep. 67%. Just so we're being verySEswyx: precise.So Yeah. I'm notAaron Levie: Okay. Okay.swyx: Something I'm rounding up. Yes. Round up. I'm projecting to, forAaron Levie: the government.swyx: I'm projecting to the end of the year.Aaron Levie: Okay.swyx: There you go.Aaron Levie: You do make it sound like, like we, we, well we've gotta be on this. Like we're, we're taking way too long to get to 80%. Well,swyx: no, I mean, so like. How are they approaching it?Right? Because you're, you don't have a, you don't have a final answer yet.Why Coding Agents Took Off FirstAaron Levie: Well, okay, so, so this is actually, this is the stark reality that like, unfortunately is the kinda like pouring the water on the party a little bit.swyx: Yes.Aaron Levie: We all in Silicon Valley are like, have the absolute best conditions possible for AI ever.And I think we all saw the dke, you know, kind of Dario podcast and this idea of AI coding. Why is that taken off? And, and we're not yet fully seeing it everywhere else. Well, look, if you just like enumerated the list of properties that AI coding has and then compared it to other [00:12:00] knowledge work, let's just, let's just go through a few of them.Generally speaking, you bring on a new engineer, they have access to a large swath of the code base. Like, there's like very, like you, just, like new engineer comes on, they can just go and find the, the, the stuff that they, they need to work with. It's a fully text in text out. Medium. It's only, it's just gonna be text at the end of the day.So it's like really great from a, from just a, uh, you know, kinda what the agent can work with. Obviously the models are super trained on that dataset. The labs themselves have a really strong, kind of self-reinforcing positive flywheel of why they need to do, you know, agent coding deeply. So then you get just better tooling, better services.The actual developers of the AI are daily users of the, of the thing that they're we're working on versus like the, you know, probably there's only like seven Claude Cowork legal plugin users at Anthropic any given day, but there's like a couple thousand Claude code and you know, users every single day.So just like, think about which one are they getting more feedback on. All day long. So you just go through this list. You have a, you know, everybody who's a [00:13:00] developer by definition is technical so they can go install the latest thing. We're all generally online, or at least, you know, kinda the weird ones are, and we're all talking to each other, sharing best practices, like that's like already eight differences.Versus the rest of the economy. Every other part of the economy has like, like six to seven headwinds relative to that list. You go into a company, you're a banker in financial services, you have access to like a, a tiny little subset of the total data that's gonna be relevant to do your job. And you're have to start to go and talk to a bunch of people to get the right data to do your job because Sally didn't add you to that deal room, you know, folder.And that that, you know, the information is actually in a completely different organization that you now have to go in and, and sort of run into. And it's like you have this endless list of access controls and security. As, as you talked about, you have a medium, which is not, it's not just text, right? You have, you have a zoom call that, that you're getting all of the requirements from the customer.You have a lot of in-person conversations and you're doing in-person sales and like how do you ever [00:14:00] digitize all of that information? Um, you know, I think a lot of people got upset with this idea that the code base has all the context, um, that I don't know if you follow, you know, did you follow some of that conversation that that went viral?Is like, you know, it's not that simple that, that the code base doesn't have all the knowledge, but like it's a lot, you're a lot better off than you are with other areas of knowledge work. Like you, we like, we like have documentation practices, you write specifications. Those things don't exist for like 80% of work that happens in the enterprise.That's the divide that we have, which is, which is AI coding has, has just fully, you know, where we've reached escape velocity of how powerful this stuff is, and then we're gonna have to find a way to bring that same energy and momentum, but to all these other areas of knowledge work. Where the tools aren't there, the data's not set up to be there.The access controls don't make it that easy. The context engineering is an incredibly hard problem because again, you have access control challenges, you have different data formats. You have end users that are gonna need to kind of be kind of trained through this as opposed to their adopting [00:15:00] these tools in their free time.That's where the Fortune 500 is. And so we, I think, you know, have to be prepared as an industry where we are gonna be on a multi-year march to, to be able to bring agents to the enterprise for these workflows. And I think probably the, the thing that we've learned most in coding that, that the rest of the world is not yet, I think ready for, I mean, we're, they'll, they'll have to be ready for it because it's just gonna inevitably happen is I think in coding.What, what's interesting is if you think about the practice of coding today versus two years ago. It's probably the most changed workflow in maybe the history of time from the amount of time it's changed, right? Yeah. Like, like has any, has any workflow in the entire economy changed that quickly in terms of the amount of change?I just, you know, at least in any knowledge worker workflow, there's like very rarely been an event where one piece of technology and work practice has so fundamentally, you know, changed, changed what you do. Like you don't write code, you talk to an agent and it goes and [00:16:00] does it for you, and you may be at best review it.And even that's even probably like, like largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective. In that model, the agent didn't really adapt to how we work. We basically adapted to how the agent works. Mm-hmm. All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution.The rest of the economy is gonna have to update its workflows to make agents effective. And to give agents the context that they need and to actually figure out what kind of prompting works and to figure out how do you ensure that the agent has the right access to information to be able to execute on its work.I, you know, this is not the panacea that people were hoping for, of the agent drops in, just automates your life. Like you have to basically re-engineer your workflow to get the most out of agents and, uh, and that, that's just gonna take, you know, multiple years across the economy. Right now it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kinda wired into doing this.‘cause [00:17:00] you'll see compounding returns, but that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.swyx: I love, I love pushing back. I think that. That is what a lot of technology consultants love to hear this sort of thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. First to, to embrace the ai. Yes. To get to the promised land, you must pay me so much money to a hundred percent to adopt the prescribed way of, uh, conforming to the agents.Yes. And I worry that you will be eclipsed by someone else who says, no, come as you are.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And we'll meet you where you are.Aaron Levie: And, and, and and what was the thing that went viral a week ago? OpenAI probably, uh, is hiring F Dees. Yeah. Uh, to go into the enterprise. Yeah. Yeah. And then philanthropic is embedded at Goldman Sachs.Yeah. So if the labs are having to do this, if, if the labs have decided that they need to hire FDE and professional services, then I think that's a pretty clear indication that this, there's no easy mode of workflow transformation. Yeah. Yeah. So, so to your point, I think actually this is a market opportunity for, you know, new professional services and consulting [00:18:00] firms that are like Agent Build and they, and they kind of, you know, go into organizations and they figure out how to re-engineer your workflows to make them more agent ready and get your data into the right format and, you know, reconstruct your business process.So you're, you're not doing most of the work. You're telling agents how to do the work and then you're reviewing it. But I haven't seen the thing that can just drop in and, and kinda let you not go through those changes.swyx: I don't know how that kind of sales pitch goes over. Yeah. You know, you're, you're saying things like, well, in my sort of nice beautiful walled garden, here's, there's, uh, because here's this, here's this beautiful box account that has everything.Yes. And I'm like, well, most, most real life is extremely messy. Sure. And like, poorly named and there duplicate this outdated s**tAaron Levie: a hundred percent. And so No, no, a hundred percent. And so this is actually No. So, so this is, I mean, we agree that, that getting to the beautiful garden is gonna be tough.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: There's also the other end of the spectrum where I, I just like, it's a technical impossibility to solve. The agent is, is truly cannot get enough context to make the right decision in, in the, in the incredibly messy land. Like there's [00:19:00] no a GI that will solve that. So, so we're gonna have to kind of land in somewhere in between, which is like we all collectively get better at.Documentation practices and, and having authoritative relatively up-to-date information and putting it in the right place like agents will, will certainly cause us to be much better organized around how we work with our information, simply because the severity of the agent pulling the wrong data will be too high and the productivity gain of that you'll miss out on by not doing this will be too high as well, that you, that your competition will just do it and they'll just have higher velocity.So, uh, and, and we, we see this a lot firsthand. So we, we build a series of agents internally that they can kind of have access to your full box account and go off and you give it a task and it can go find whatever information you're looking for and work with. And, you know, thank God for the model progress, but like, if, if you gave that task to an agent.Nine months ago, you're just gonna get lots of bogus answers because it's gonna, it's gonna say, Hey, here's, here are fi [00:20:00] five, you know, documents that all kind of smell like the right thing. And I'm gonna, but I, but you're, you're putting me on the clock. ‘cause my assistant prompt says like, you know, be pretty smart, but also try and respond to the user and it's gonna respond.And it's like, ah, it got the wrong document. And then you do that once or twice as a knowledge worker and you're just neverswyx: again,Aaron Levie: never again. You're just like done with the system.swyx: Yeah. It doesn't work.Aaron Levie: It doesn't work. And so, you know, Opus four six and Gemini three one Pro and you know, whatever the latest five 3G BT will be, like, those things are getting better and better and it's using better judgment.And this sort of like the, all of these updates to the agentic tool and search systems are, are, we're seeing, we're seeing very real progress where the agent. Kind of can, can almost smell some things a little bit fishy when it's getting, you know, we, we have this process where we, we have it go fan out, do a bunch of searches, pull up a bunch of data, and then it has to sort of do its own ranking of, you know, what are the right documents that, that it should be working with.And again, like, you know, the intelligence level of a model six months ago, [00:21:00] it'd be just throwing a dart at like, I'm just, I'm gonna grab these seven files and I, I pray, I hope that that's the right answer. And something like an opus first four five, and now four six is like, oh, it's like, no, that one doesn't seem right relative to this question because I'm seeing some signal that is making that, you know, that's contradicting the document where it would normally be in the tree and who should have access.Like it's doing all of that kind of work for you. But like, it still doesn't work if you just have a total wasteland of data. Like, it's just not, it's just not possible. Partly ‘cause a human wouldn't even be able to do it. So basically if a, if a really, really smart human. Could not do that task in five or 10 minutes for a search retrieval type task.Look, you know, your agent's not gonna be able to do it any better. You see this all day long. SoContext Engineering and Search Limitsswyx: this touches on a thing that just passionate about it was just context engineering. I, I'm just gonna let you ramble or riff on, on context engineering. If, if, if there's anything like he, he did really good work on context fraud, which has really taken over as like the term that people use and the referenceAaron Levie: a hundred percent.We, we all we think about is, is the context rob problem. [00:22:00]Jeff Huber: Yeah, there's certainly a lot of like ranking considerations. Gentech surgery think is incredibly promising. Um, yeah, I was trying to generate a question though. I think I have a question right now. Swyx.Aaron Levie: Yeah, no, but like, like I think there was this moment, um, you know, like, I don't know, two years ago before, before we knew like where the, the gotchas were gonna be in ai and I think someone was like, was like, well, infinite context windows will just solve all of these problems and ‘cause you'll just, you'll just give the context window like all the data and.It's just like, okay, I mean, maybe in 2035, like this is a viable solution. First of all, it, it would just, it would just simply cost too much. Like we just can't give the model like the 5,000 documents that might be relevant and it's gonna read them all. And I've seen enough to, to start believing in crazy stuff.So like, I'm willing to just say, sure. Like in, in 10 years from now,swyx: never say, never, never.Aaron Levie: In, in 10 years from now, we'll have infinite context windows at, at a thousandth of the price of today. Like, let's just like believe that that's possible, but Right. We're in reality today. So today we have a context engineering [00:23:00] problem, which is, I got, I got, you know, 200,000 tokens that I can work with, or prob, I don't even know what the latest graph is before, like massive degradation.16. Okay. I have 60,000 tokens that I get to work with where I'm gonna get accurate information. That's not a lot of tokens for a corpus of 10 million documents that a knowledge worker might have across all of the teams and all the projects and all the people they work with. I have, I have 10 million documents.Which, you know, maybe is times five pages per document or something like that. I'm at 50 million pages of information and I have 60,000 tokens. Like, holy s**t. Yeah. This is like, how do I bridge the 50 million pages of information with, you know, the couple hundred that I get to work with in that, in that token window.Yeah. This is like, this is like such an interesting problem and that's why actually so much work is actually like, just like search systems and the databases and that layer has to just get so locked in, but models getting better and importantly [00:24:00] knowing when they've done a search, they found the wrong thing, they go back, they check their work, they, they find a way to balance sort of appeasing the user versus double checking.We have this one, we have this one test case where we ask the agent to go find. 10 pieces of information.swyx: Is this the complex work eval?Aaron Levie: Uh, this is actually not in the eval. This is, this is sort of just like we have a bunch of different, we have a bunch of internal benchmark kind of scenarios. Every time we, we update our agent, we have one, which is, I ask it to find all of our office addresses, and I give it the list of 10 offices that we have.And there's not one document that has this, maybe there should be, that would be a great example of the kind of thing that like maybe over time companies start to, you know, have these sort of like, what are the canonical, you know, kind of key areas of knowledge that we need to have. We don't seem to have this one document that says, here are all of our offices.We have a bunch of documents that have like, here's the New York office and whatever. So you task this agent and you, you get, you say, I need the addresses for these 10 offices. Okay. And by the way, if you do this on any, you know, [00:25:00] public chat model, the same outcome is gonna happen. But for a different kind of query, you give it, you say, I need these 10 addresses.How many times should the agent go and do its search before it decides whether or not, there's just no answer to this question. Often, and especially the, the, let's say lower tier models, it'll come back and it'll give you six of the 10 addresses. And it'll, and I'll just say I couldn't find the otherswyx: four.It, it doesn't know what It doesn't know. ItAaron Levie: doesn't know what It doesn't know. Yeah. So the model is just like, like when should it stop? When should it stop doing? Like should it, should it do that task for literally an hour and just keep cranking through? Maybe I actually made up an office location and it doesn't know that I made it up and I didn't even know that I made it up.Like, should it just keep, re should it read every single file in your entire box account until it, until it should exhaust every single piece of information.swyx: Expensive.Aaron Levie: These are the new problems that we have. So, you know, something like, let's say a new opus model is sort of like, okay, I'm gonna try these types of queries.I didn't get exactly what I wanted. I'm gonna try again. I'm gonna, at [00:26:00] some point I'm gonna stop searching. ‘cause I've determined that that no amount of searching is gonna solve this problem. I'm just not able to do it. And that judgment is like a really new thing that the model needs to be able to have.It's like, when should it give up on a task? ‘cause, ‘cause you just don't, it's a can't find the thing. That's the real world of knowledge, work problems. And this is the stuff that the coding agents don't have to deal with. Because they, it just doesn't like, like you're not usually asking it about, you're, you're always creating net new information coming right outta the model for the most part.Obviously it has to know about your code base and your specs and your documentation, but, but when you deploy an agent on all of your data that now you have all of these new problems that you're dealing withJeff Huber: our, uh, follow follow-up research to context ride is actually on a genetic search. Ah. Um, and we've like right, sort of stress tested like frontier models and their ability to search.Um, and they're not actually that good at searching. Right. Uh, so you're sort of highlighting this like explore, exploit.swyx: You're just say, Debbie, Donna say everything doesn't work. Like,Aaron Levie: well,Jeff Huber: somebody has to be,Aaron Levie: um, can I just throw out one more thing? Yeah. That is different from coding and, and the rest [00:27:00] of the knowledge work that I, I failed to mention.So one other kind of key point is, is that, you know, at the end of the day. Whether you believe we're in a slop apocalypse or, or whatever. At the end of the day, if you, if you build a working product at the end of, if you, if you've built a working solution that is ultimately what the customer is paying for, like whether I have a lot of slop, a little slop or whatever, I'm sure there's lots of code bases we could go into in enterprise software companies where it's like just crazy slop that humans did over a 20 year period, but the end customer just gets this little interface.They can, they can type into it, it does its thing. Knowledge work, uh, doesn't have that property. If I have an AI model, go generate a contract and I generate a contract 20 times and, you know, all 20 times it's just 3% different and like that I, that, that kind of lop introduces all new kinds of risk for my organization that the code version of that LOP didn't, didn't introduce.These are, and so like, so how do you constrain these models to just the part that you want [00:28:00] them to work on and just do the thing that you want them to do? And, and, you know, in engineering, we don't, you can't be disbarred as an engineer, but you could be disbarred as a lawyer. Like you can do the wrong medical thing In healthcare, you, there's no, there's no equivalent to that of engineering.Like, doswyx: you want there to be, because I've considered softwareJeff Huber: engineer. What's that? Civil engineering there is, right? NotAaron Levie: software civil engineer. Sure. Oh yeah, for sure. But like in any of our companies, you like, you know, you'll be forgiven if you took down the site and, and we, we will do a rollback and you'll, you'll be in a meeting, but you have not been disbarred as an engineer.We don't, we don't change your, you know, your computer science, uh, blameJeff Huber: degree, this postmortem.Aaron Levie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so, uh, now maybe we collectively as an industry need to figure out like, what are you liable for? Not legally, but like in a, in a management sense, uh, of these agents. All sorts of interesting problems that, that, that, uh, that have to come out.But in knowledge work, that's the real hostile environments that we're operating in. Hmm.swyx: I do think like, uh, a lot of the last year's, 2025 story was the rise of coding agents and I think [00:29:00] 2026 story is definitely knowledge work agents. Yes. A hundredAaron Levie: percent.swyx: Right. Like that would, and I think open claw core work are just the beginning.Yes. Like it's, the next one's gonna just gonna be absolute craziness.Aaron Levie: It it is. And, and, uh, and it's gonna be, I mean, again, like this is gonna be this, this wave where we, we are gonna try and bring as many of the practices from coding because that, that will clearly be the forefront, which is tell an agent to go do something and has an access to a set of resources.You need to be responsible for reviewing it at the end of the process. That to me is the, is the kind of template that I just think goes across knowledge, work and odd. Cowork is a great example. Open Closet's a great example. You can kind of, sort of see what Codex could become over time. These are some, some really interesting kind of platforms that are emerging.swyx: Okay. Um, I wanted to, we touched on evals a little bit. You had, you had the report that you're gonna go bring up and then I was gonna go into like, uh, boxes, evals, but uh, go ahead. Talk about your genetic search thing.Jeff Huber: Yeah. Mostly I think kinda a few of the insights. It's like number one frontier model is not good at search.Humans have this [00:30:00] natural explore, exploit trade off where we kinda understand like when to stop doing something. Also, humans are pretty good at like forgetting actually, and like pruning their own context, whereas agents are not, and actually an agent in their kind of context history, if they knew something was bad and they even, you could see in the trace the reason you trace, Hey, that probably wasn't a good idea.If it's still in the trace, still in the context, they'll still do it again. Uhhuh. Uh, and so like, I think pruning is also gonna be like, really, it's already becoming a thing, right? But like, letting self prune the con windowsswyx: be a big deal. Yeah. So, so don't leave the mistake. Don't leave the mistake in there.Cut out the mistake but tell it that you made a mistake in the past and so it doesn't repeat it.Jeff Huber: Yeah. But like cut it out so it doesn't get like distracted by it again. ‘cause really, you know, what is so, so it will repeat its mistake just because it's been, it's inswyx: theJeff Huber: context. It'sAaron Levie: in the context so much.That's a few shot example. Even if it, yeah.Jeff Huber: It's like oh thisAaron Levie: is a great thing to go try even ifJeff Huber: it didn't work.Aaron Levie: Yeah,Jeff Huber: exactly.Aaron Levie: SoJeff Huber: there's like a bunch of stuff there. JustAaron Levie: Groundhogs Day inside these models. Yeah. I'm gonna go keep doing the same wrongJeff Huber: thing. Covering sense. I feel like, you know, some creator analogy you're trying like fit a manifold in latent space, which kind is doing break program synthesis, which is kinda one we think about we're doing right.Like, you know, certain [00:31:00] facts might be like sort of overly pitting it. There are certain, you know, sec sectors of latent space and so like plug clean space. Yeah. And, uh, andswyx: so we have a bell, our editor as a bell every time you say that. SoJeff Huber: you have, you have to like remove those, likeswyx: you shoulda a gong like TPN or something.IfJeff Huber: we gong, you either remove those links to like kinda give it the freedom, kind of do what you need to do. So, but yeah. We'll, we'll release more soon. That'sAaron Levie: awesome.Jeff Huber: That'll, that'll be cool.swyx: We're a cerebral podcast that people listen to us and, and sort of think really deep. So yeah, we try to keep it subtle.Okay. We try to keep it.Aaron Levie: Okay, fine.Inside Agent Evalsswyx: Um, you, you guys do, you guys do have EVs, you talked about your, your office thing, but, uh, you've been also promoting APEX agents and complex work. Uh, yeah, whatever you, wherever you wanna take this just Yeah. How youAaron Levie: Apex is, is obviously me, core's, uh, uh, kind of, um, agent eval.We, we supported that by sort of. Opening up some data for them around how we kind of see these, um, data workspaces in, in the, you know, kind of regular economy. So how do lawyers have a workspace? How do investment bankers have a workspace? What kind of data goes into those? And so we, [00:32:00] we partner with them on their, their apex eval.Our own, um, eval is, it's actually relatively straightforward. We have a, a set of, of documents in a, in a range of industries. We give the agent previously did this as a one shot test of just purely the model. And then we just realized we, we need to, based on where everything's going, it's just gotta be more agentic.So now it's a bit more of a test of both our harness and the model. And we have a rubric of a set of things that has to get right and we score it. Um, and you're just seeing, you know, these incredible jumps in almost every single model in its own family of, you know, opus four, um, you know, sonnet four six versus sonnet four five.swyx: Yeah. We have this up on screen.Aaron Levie: Okay, cool. So some, you're seeing it somewhere like. I, I forget the to, it was like 15 point jump, I think on the main, on the overall,swyx: yes.Aaron Levie: And it's just like, you know, these incredible leaps that, that are starting to happen. Um,swyx: and OP doesn't know any, like any, it's completely held out from op.Aaron Levie: This is not in any, there's no public data which has, you know, Ben benefits and this is just a private eval that we [00:33:00] do, and then we just happen to show it to, to the world. Hmm. So you can't, you can't train against it. And I think it's just as representative of. It's obviously reasoning capabilities, what it's doing at, at, you know, kind of test time, compute capabilities, thinking levels, all like the context rot issues.So many interesting, you know, kind of, uh, uh, capabilities that are, that are now improvingswyx: one sector that you have. That's interesting.Industries and Datasetsswyx: Uh, people are roughly familiar with healthcare and legal, but you have public sector in there.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: Uh, what's that? Like, what, what, what is that?Aaron Levie: Yeah, and, and we actually test against, I dunno, maybe 10 industries.We, we end up usually just cutting a few that we think have interesting gains. All extras, won a lot of like government type documents. Um,swyx: what is that? What is it? Government type documents?Aaron Levie: Government filings. Like a taxswyx: return, likeAaron Levie: a probably not tax returns. It would be more of what would go the government be using, uh, as data.So, okay. Um, so think about research that, that type of, of, of data sets. And then we have financial services for things like data rooms and what would be in an investment prospectus. Uhhuh,swyx: that one you can dog food.Aaron Levie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. [00:34:00] So, uh, so we, we run the models, um, in now, you know, more of an agent mode, but, but still with, with kinda limited capacity and just try and see like on a, like, for like basis, what are the improvements?And, and again, we just continue to be blown away by. How, how good these models are getting.swyx: Yeah, I mean, I think every serious AI company needs something like that where like, well, this is the work we do. Here's our company eval. Yeah. And if you don't have it, well, you're not a serious AI company.Aaron Levie: There's two dimensions, right?So there's, there's like, how are the models improving? And so which models should you either recommend a customer use, which one should you adopt? But then every single day, we're making changes to our agents. And you need to knowswyx: if you regressed,Aaron Levie: if you know. Yeah. You know, I've been fully convinced that the whole agent observability and eval space is gonna be a massive space.Um, super excited for what Braintrust is doing, excited for, you know, Lang Smith, all the things. And I think what you're going to, I mean, this is like every enter like literally every enterprise right now. It's like the AI companies are the customers of these tools. Every enterprise will have this. Yeah, you'll just [00:35:00] have to have an eval.Of all of your work and like, we'll, you'll have an eval of your RFP generation, you'll have an eval of your sales material creation. You'll have an eval of your, uh, invoice processing. And, and as you, you know, buy or use new agentic systems, you are gonna need to know like, what's the quality of your, of your pipeline.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: Um, so huge, huge market with agent evals.swyx: Yeah.Building the Agent Teamswyx: And, and you know, I'm gonna shout out your, your team a bit, uh, your CTO, Ben, uh, did a great talk with us last year. Awesome. And he's gonna come back again. Oh, cool. For World's Fair.Aaron Levie: Yep.swyx: Just talk about your team, like brag a little bit. I think I, I think people take these eval numbers in pretty charts for granted, but No, there, I mean, there's, there's lots of really smart people at work during all this.Aaron Levie: Biggest shout out, uh, is we have a, we have a couple folks at Dya, uh, Sidarth, uh, that, that kind of run this. They're like a, you know, kind of tag tag team duo on our evals, Ben, our CTO, heavily involved Yasha, head of ai, uh, you know, a bunch of folks. And, um, evals is one part of the story. And then just like the full, you know, kind of AI.An agent team [00:36:00] is, uh, is a, is a pretty, you know, is core to this whole effort. So there's probably, I don't know, like maybe a few dozen people that are like the epicenter. And then you just have like layers and layers of, of kind of concentric circles of okay, then there's a search team that supports them and an infrastructure team that supports them.And it's starting to ripple through the entire company. But there's that kind of core agent team, um, that's a pretty, pretty close, uh, close knit group.swyx: The search team is separate from the infra team.Aaron Levie: I mean, we have like every, every layer of the stack we have to kind of do, except for just pure public cloud.Um, but um, you know, we, we store, I don't even know what our public numbers are in, you know, but like, you can just think about it as like a lot of data is, is stored in box. And so we have, and you have every layer of the, of the stack of, you know, how do you manage the data, the file system, the metadata system, the search system, just all of those components.And then they all are having to understand that now you've got this new customer. Which is the agent, and they've been building for two types of customers in the past. They've been building for users and they've been building for like applications. [00:37:00] And now you've got this new agent user, and it comes in with a difference of it, of property sometimes, like, hey, maybe sometimes we should do embeddings, an embedding based, you know, kind of search versus, you know, your, your typical semantic search.Like, it's just like you have to build the, the capabilities to support all of this. And we're testing stuff, throwing things away, something doesn't work and, and not relevant. It's like just, you know, total chaos. But all of those teams are supporting the agent team that is kind of coming up with its requirements of what, what do we need?swyx: Yeah. No, uh, we just came from, uh, fireside chat where you did, and you, you talked about how you're doing this. It's, it's kind of like an internal startup. Yeah. Within the broader company. The broader company's like 3000 people. Yeah. But you know, there's, there's a, this is a core team of like, well, here's the innovation center.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And like that every company kind of is run this way.Aaron Levie: Yeah. I wanna be sensitive. I don't call it the innovation center. Yeah. Only because I think everybody has to do innovation. Um, there, there's a part of the, the, the company that is, is sort of do or die for the agent wave.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: And it only happens to be more of my focus simply because it's existential that [00:38:00] we get it right.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: All of the supporting systems are necessary. All of the surrounding adjacent capabilities are necessary. Like the only reason we get to be a platform where you'd run an agent is because we have a security feature or a compliance feature, or a governance feature that, that some team is working on.But that's not gonna be the make or break of, of whether we get agents right. Like that already exists and we need to keep innovating there. I don't know what the right, exact precise number is, but it's not a thousand people and it's not 10 people. There's a number of people that are like the, the kind of like, you know, startup within the company that are the make or break on everything related to AI agents, you know, leveraging our platform and letting you work with your data.And that's where I spend a lot of my time, and Ben and Yosh and Diego and Teri, you know, these are just, you know, people that, that, you know, kind of across the team. Are working.swyx: Yeah. Amazing.Read Write Agent WorkflowsJeff Huber: How do you, how do you think about, I mean, you talked a lot about like kinda read workflows over your box data. Yep.Right. You know, gen search questions, queries, et cetera. But like, what about like, write or like authoring workflows?Aaron Levie: Yes. I've [00:39:00] already probably revealed too much actually now that I think about it. So, um, I've talked about whatever,Jeff Huber: whatever you can.Aaron Levie: Okay. It's just us. It's just us. Yeah. Okay. Of course, of course.So I, I guess I would just, uh, I'll make it a little bit conceptual, uh, because again, I've already, I've already said things that are not even ga but, but we've, we've kinda like danced around it publicly, so I, yeah, yeah. Okay. Just like, hopefully nobody watches this, um, episode. No.swyx: It's tidbits for the Heidi engaged to go figure out like what exactly, um, you know, is, is your sort of line of thinking.Sure. They can connect the dots.Aaron Levie: Yeah. So, so I would say that, that, uh, we, you know, as a, as a place where you have your enterprise content, there's a use case where I want to, you know, have an agent read that data and answer questions for me. And then there's a use case where I want the agent to create something.And use the file system to create something or store off data that it's working on, or be able to have, you know, various files that it's writing to about the work it's doing. So we do see it as a total read write. The harder problem has so far been the read only because, because again, you have that kind of like 10 [00:40:00] million to one ratio problem, whereas rights are a lot of, that's just gonna come from the model and, and we just like, we'll just put it in the file system and kinda use it.So it's a little bit of a technically easier problem, but the only part that's like, not necessarily technically hard, it is just like it's not yet perfected in the state of the ecosystem is, you know, building a beautiful PowerPoint presentation. It's still a hard problem for these models. Like, like we still, you know, like, like these formats are just, we're not built for.They'reswyx: working on it.Aaron Levie: They're, they're working on it. Everybody's working on it.swyx: Every launch is like, well, we do PowerPoint now.Aaron Levie: We're getting, yeah, getting a lot, getting a lot of better each time. But then you'll do this thing where you'll ask the update one slide and all of a sudden, like the fonts will be just like a little bit different, you know, on two of the slides, or it moved, you know, some shape over to the left a little bit.And again, these are the kind of things that, like in code, obviously you could really care about if you really care about, you know, how beautiful is the code, but at the end, user doesn't notice all those problems and file creation, the end user instantly sees it. You're [00:41:00] like, ah, like paragraph three, like, you literally just changed the font on me.Like it's a totally different font and like midway through the document. Mm-hmm. Those are the kind of things that you run into a lot of in the, in the content creation side. So, mm-hmm. We are gonna have native agents. That do all of those things, they'll be powered by the leading kind of models and labs.But the thing that I think is, is probably gonna be a much bigger idea over time is any agent on any system, again, using Box as a file system for its work, and in that kind of scenario, we don't necessarily care what it's putting in the file system. It could put its memory files, it could put its, you know, specification, you know, documents.It could put, you know, whatever its markdown files are, or it could, you know, generate PDFs. It's just like, it's a workspace that is, is sort of sandboxed off for its work. People can collaborate into it, it can share with other people. And, and so we, we were thinking a lot about what's the right, you know, kind of way to, to deliver that at scale.Docs Graphs and Founder Modeswyx: I wanted to come into sort of the sort of AI transformation or AI sort of, uh, operations things. [00:42:00] Um, one of the tweets that you, that you wanted to talk about, this is just me going through your tweets, by the way. Oh, okay. I mean, like, this is, you readAaron Levie: one by one,swyx: you're the, you're the easiest guest to prep for because you, you already have like, this is the, this is what I'm interested in.I'm like, okay, well, areAaron Levie: we gonna get to like, like February, January or something? Where are we in the, in the timelines? How far back are we going?swyx: Can you, can you describe boxes? A set of skills? Right? Like that, that's like, that's like one of the extremes of like, well if you, you just turn everything into a markdown file.Yeah. Then your agent can run your company. Uh, like you just have to write, find the right sequence of words toAaron Levie: Yes.swyx: To do it.Aaron Levie: Sorry, isthatswyx: the question? So I think the question is like, what if we documented everything? Yes. The way that you exactly said like,Aaron Levie: yes.swyx: Um, let's get all the Fortune five hundreds, uh, prepared for agents.Yes. And like, you know, everything's in golden and, and nicely filed away and everything. Yes. What's missing? Like, what's left, right? LikeAaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: You've, you've run your company for a decade. LikeAaron Levie: Yeah. I think the challenge is that, that that information changes a week later. And because something happened in the market for that [00:43:00] customer, or us as a company that now has to go get updated, and so these systems are living and breathing and they have to experience reality and updates to reality, which right now is probably gonna be humans, you know, kinda giving those, giving them the updates.And, you know, there is this piece about context graphs as as, uh, that kinda went very viral. Yeah. And I, I, I was like a, i, I, I thought it was super provocative. I agreed with many parts of it. I disagree with a few parts around. You know, it's not gonna be as easy as as just if we just had the agent traces, then we can finally do that work because there's just like, there's so much more other stuff that that's happening that, that we haven't been able to capture and digitize.And I think they actually represented that in the piece to be clear. But like there's just a lot of work, you know, that that has to, you just can't have only skills files, you know, for your company because it's just gonna be like, there's gonna be a lot of other stuff that happens. Yeah. Change over time.Yeah. Most companies are practically apprenticeships.swyx: Most companies are practically apprenticeships. LikeJeff Huber: every new employee who joins the team, [00:44:00] like you span one to three months. Like ramping them up.Aaron Levie: Yes. AllJeff Huber: that tat knowledgeAaron Levie: isJeff Huber: not written down.Aaron Levie: Yes.Jeff Huber: But like, it would have to be if you wanted to like give it to an Asian.Right. And so like that seems to me like to beAaron Levie: one is I think you're gonna see again a premium on companies that can document this. Mm-hmm. Much. There'll be a huge premium on that because, because you know, can you shorten that three month ramp cycle to a two week ramp cycle? That's an instant productivity gain.Can you re dramatically reduce rework in the organization because you've documented where all the stuff is and where the answers are. Can you make your average employee as good as your 90th percentile employee because you've captured the knowledge that's sort of in the heads of, of those top employees and make that available.So like you can see some very clear productivity benefits. Mm-hmm. If you had a company culture of making sure you know your information was captured, digitized, put in a format that was agent ready and then made available to agents to work with, and then you just, again, have this reality of like add a 10,000 person [00:45:00] company.Mapping that to the, you know, access structure of the company is just a hard problem. Is like, is like, yeah, well, you just, not every piece of information that's digitized can be shared to everybody. And so now you have to organize that in a way that actually works. There was a pretty good piece, um, this, this, uh, this piece called your company as a file is a file system.I, did you see that one?swyx: Nope.Aaron Levie: Uh, yes. You saw it. Yeah. And, and, uh, I actually be curious your thoughts on it. Um, like, like an interesting kind of like, we, we agree with it because, because that's how we see the world and, uh,swyx: okay. We, we have it up on screen. Oh,Aaron Levie: okay. Yeah. But, but it's all about basically like, you know, we've already, we, we, we already organized in this kind of like, you know, permission structure way.Uh, and, and these are the kind of, you know, natural ways that, that agents can now work with data. So it's kind of like this, this, you know, kind of interesting metaphor, but I do think companies will have to start to think about how they start to digitize more, more of that data. What was your take?Jeff Huber: Yeah, I mean, like the company's probably like an acid compliant file system.Aaron Levie: Uh,Jeff Huber: yeah. Which I'm guessing boxes, right? So, yeah. Yes.swyx: Yeah. [00:46:00]Jeff Huber: Which you have a great piece on, but,swyx: uh, yeah. Well, uh, I, I, my, my, my direction is a little bit like, I wanna rewind a little bit to the graph word you said that there, that's a magic trigger word for us. I always ask what's your take on knowledge graphs?Yeah. Uh, ‘cause every, especially at every data database person, I just wanna see what they think. There's been knowledge graphs, hype cycles, and you've seen it all. So.Aaron Levie: Hmm. I actually am not the expert in knowledge graphs, so, so that you might need toswyx: research, you don't need to be an expert. Yeah. I think it's just like, well, how, how seriously do people take it?Yeah. Like, is is, is there a lot of potential in the, in the HOVI?Aaron Levie: Uh, well, can I, can I, uh, understand first if it's, um, is this a loaded question in the sense of are you super pro, super con, super anti medium? Iswyx: see pro, I see pros and cons. Okay. Uh, but I, I think your opinion should be independent of mine.Aaron Levie: Yeah. No, no, totally. Yeah. I just want to see what I'm stepping into.swyx: No, I know. It's a, and it's a huge trigger word for a lot of people out Yeah. In our audience. And they're, they're trying to figure out why is that? Because whyAaron Levie: is this such aswyx: hot item for them? Because a lot of people get graph religion.And they're like, everything's a graph. Of course you have to represent it as a graph. Well, [00:47:00] how do you solve your knowledge? Um, changing over time? Well, it's a graph.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And, and I think there, there's that line of work and then there's, there's a lot of people who are like, well, you don't need it. And both are right.Aaron Levie: Yeah. And what do the people who say you don't need it, what are theyswyx: arguing for Mark down files. Oh, sure, sure. Simplicity.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: Versus it's, it's structure versus less structure. Right. That's, that's all what it is. I do.Aaron Levie: I think the tricky thing is, um, is, is again, when this gets met with real humans, they're just going to their computer.They're just working with some people on Slack or teams. They're just sharing some data through a collaborative file system and Google Docs or Box or whatever. I certainly like the vision of most, most knowledge graph, you know, kind of futuristic kind of ways of thinking about it. Uh, it's just like, you know, it's 2026.We haven't seen it yet. Kind of play out as as, I mean, I remember. Do you remember the, um, in like, actually I don't, I don't even know how old you guys are, but I'll for, for to show my age. I remember 17 years ago, everybody thought enterprises would just run on [00:48:00] Wikis. Yeah. And, uh, confluence and, and not even, I mean, confluence actually took off for engineering for sure.Like unquestionably. But like, this was like everything would be in the w. And I think based on our, uh, our, uh, general style of, of, of what we were building, like we were just like, I don't know, people just like wanna workspace. They're gonna collaborate with other people.swyx: Exactly. Yeah. So you were, you were anti-knowledge graph.Aaron Levie: Not anti, not anti. Soswyx: not nonAaron Levie: I'm not, I'm not anti. ‘cause I think, I think your search system, I just think these are two systems that probably, but like, I'm, I'm not in any religious war. I don't want to be in anybody's YouTube comments on this. There's not a fight for me.swyx: We, we love YouTube comments. We're, we're, we're get into comments.Aaron Levie: Okay. Uh, but like, but I, I, it's mostly just a virtue of what we built. Yeah. And we just continued down that path. Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: And, um, and that, that was what we pursued. But I'm not, this is not a, you know, kind of, this is not a, uh, it'sswyx: not existential for you. Great.Aaron Levie: We're happy to plug into somebody else's graph.We're happy to feed data into it. We're happy for [00:49:00] agents to, to talk to multiple systems. Not, not our fight.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: But I need your answer. Yeah. Graphs or nerd Snipes is very effective nerd.swyx: See this is, this is one, one opinion and then I've,Jeff Huber: and I think that the actual graph structure is emergent in the mind of the agent.Ah, in the same way it is in the mind of the human. And that's a more powerful graph ‘cause it actually involved over time.swyx: So don't tell me how to graph. I'll, I'll figure it out myself. Exactly. Okay. All right. AndJeff Huber: what's yours?swyx: I like the, the Wiki approach. Uh, my, I'm actually

Dr. Monty Pal and Dr. Andrea Apolo discuss practice-changing studies and other novel approaches in bladder, kidney, and prostate cancers that were presented at the 2026 ASCO Genitourinary Cancers Symposium. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Monty Pal: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Daily News Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Monty Pal. I'm a medical oncologist, professor and vice chair of academic affairs at the City of Hope Comprehensive Cancer Center in Los Angeles.  And today is super exciting, we're highlighting key abstracts that were presented at the 2026 ASCO GU Cancers Symposium, and I'm just delighted to be joined by the chair of this year's meeting, who is also a dear friend, Dr. Andrea Apolo. Dr. Apolo serves within the Center for Cancer Research at the NCI as head of the Bladder Cancer Section, and she is also acting deputy chief of the Genitourinary Malignancies Branch.  Welcome, Andrea, it is so great to have you on the podcast. Dr. Andrea Apolo: Oh, thank you so much for having me. What a great ASCO that we had, it is really exciting, lots of really great data. So I look forward to chatting about it. Dr. Monty Pal: Excellent. And you know, our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode in case our listeners want to have a peek.  The theme of this year's GU meeting was "Patient-Centered Care: From Discovery to Delivery." I love that theme. And really, this is one of the most competitive meetings out there, more than 850 abstracts being presented on high-impact science. Andrea, I just wanted to get right into it and dive into what I think we both felt were some of the most exciting abstracts of the meeting.  And the first of those is one that I know is near and dear to your heart, being a bladder cancer expert yourself, and that is the KEYNOTE-B15 study presented by Matt Galsky. Can you give us a flavor for what that study entailed and some of the key results? Dr. Andrea Apolo: Yeah, I think this was kind of the missing study that we have been waiting for since we saw the EV-302 data in metastatic disease in the frontline setting. We wanted to know how well this combination would work in muscle-invasive bladder cancer patients. And we saw half of that puzzle, you can say half of the piece of the puzzle, when we saw the data at ESMO, the EV-303 data in patients that were cisplatin-ineligible. And then now we are getting the full story with patients that are platinum-eligible, cisplatin-eligible, with the EV-304 data. So that study randomized patients to receive chemotherapy, so different than the EV-303 where the patients were randomized just to receive the radical cystectomy. These patients were randomized to receive neoadjuvant EV plus pembro and then adjuvant EV plus pembro versus neoadjuvant gemcitabine and cisplatin with no adjuvant component to the control arm. So I think this is a really, really important study. Dr. Monty Pal: And share with us some of the results because this in my mind is definitely practice-changing. This is one of those studies that I think you walked into the office on Monday and you are like, "Okay, this is what I am doing now," right? Dr. Andrea Apolo: Yeah. So the study was positive. The primary endpoint was event-free survival, and it met the primary endpoint. The secondary endpoint of overall survival was also met. So really, really great results. Consistent with what we saw with EV-303, the median event-free survival was not reached for the EV plus pembro arm, and it was 48 months for the patients receiving gem-cis. And then looking at the 24-month estimated event-free survival, it was 79% for the EV plus pembro and 66% for the chemo, the gem-cis arm. And that was a hazard ratio of 0.5. So that is really exciting. That is the event-free survival. And then the overall survival, the medians were not reached for either arm, but when you look at the 24-month estimated overall survival, it was 87% for the EV plus pembro versus 81% for the gem-cis, and that was a hazard ratio of 0.65. So very positive study.  And then another question that we had was the pathologic CR rate. Very consistent with what we saw with the EV-303, the pathologic response rate was about 56% for the patients that received EV plus pembro and about 32%, 33% for the patients that received gem-cis. So very consistent with the findings that we have been kind of seeing in phase 2 studies, and this is a pT0N0, so that is important. Dr. Monty Pal: So Andrea, you know, I think that the big question in folks' minds is at this point, we see the data from NIAGARA, cis-gem-durva, we have now seen this data. Put it into context for us. Is there a patient in this day and age who maybe shouldn't get IO altogether, who should maybe get the NIAGARA regimen as opposed to EV-pembro in this context? What are your thoughts there? Dr. Andrea Apolo: Now, that is a great question. I would say with this data, it is very enticing to give EV pembro to our patients in the perioperative setting, and for that to be the new standard of care for all patients, regardless of cisplatin eligibility. So similar to what we saw with EV-302 really changing the standard of care in the frontline setting, I think these two studies, the EV-303 and the EV-304, change the standard of care for patients with muscle-invasive bladder cancer in the perioperative setting, and this should be the new standard of care if the patients don't have a restriction to receiving an immunotherapy. Dr. Monty Pal: I totally agree with that assessment. It is great to hear it from the expert's mouth as well. Thanks a lot for that, Andrea.  The next abstract I wanted to tackle is one that is, I would say, near and dear to my heart because I know these folks really well. It is led by the SWOG group, and this is SWOG S1602. The number there for the audience gives you a sense of how long the study has been running for. The 16 prefix means it is something that we kicked off back in 2016. So this study is really 10 years in the making, right? So Rob Svatek presented this data. It is interesting, right, because it addresses this issue of the BCG (Bacille Calmette-Guérin) shortage, right, where we have needed to sort of rely potentially on other alternative sources or regimens and so forth. Tell us about this trial, Andrea. Dr. Andrea Apolo: This is one of my favorite studies. We talked about putting it in the main oral abstracts, but we put it in one of the educational sessions that talked about non-muscle-invasive bladder cancer because we thought that would be the best audience for it. But it doesn't take away from how important this abstract is, and the tremendous effort that went into the study. Almost a thousand patients enrolled. I think 984 were eligible to enroll in this study. So it is a very high enrolling, randomized, cooperative group study in high-grade non-muscle-invasive bladder cancer. And really the study was designed to address two questions. One is the BCG shortage and can we use a different strain, Tokyo versus TICE? And whether there is a priming effect if you gave intradermal BCG to patients with non-muscle-invasive bladder cancer, can that enhance the effect if you gave it a little bit earlier? I think the study is really important, and it met its primary endpoint, which was it is not inferior to TICE. The findings were really terrific in terms of the outcomes. Numerically. When you look at the endpoint, it looked like the Tokyo strain was as good, if not maybe a little bit better, but not statistically significant than the TICE. And then they broke it down by carcinoma in situ, they broke it down by papillary tumors, and the Tokyo strain was non-inferior in both of those instances. But interestingly, the intradermal BCG did not change outcomes. There was really no priming effect, which was really backed up by pre-clinical data that there would be, but there wasn't a priming effect when the intradermal BCG was given in the Tokyo strain. So that was a really, really interesting finding. But a great study, really important outcomes in the field for non-muscle-invasive bladder cancer. Dr. Monty Pal: Totally. And it just seems like we can't get away from BCG, right? You know, as hard as we try, I mean, I appreciate the studies that sort of build on it that are emerging right now, but it seems like BCG at least for the foreseeable future is kind of here to stay, right? Dr. Andrea Apolo: It works. It is one of the most effective treatments we have for non-muscle-invasive bladder cancer. So, you know, I think it is here to stay and, you know, we need to find alternatives in terms of strains so we don't deal with this shortage that we have been dealing with for so many years now. Dr. Monty Pal: Yeah, indeed. Moving on to some of the other highlighted studies from the meeting, you had mentioned the EV-303 data, so we probably don't need to rehash that study design in much detail. But there was also a rapid oral abstract presented by Dr. Ullén that I think is of interest here, right, that really hones in on pathologic outcomes and DFS from that trial. Do you mind just outlining that for our listenership? Dr. Andrea Apolo: This is the KEYNOTE-905, also known as the EV-303 study. This is a follow-up to the EV-303 data looking at the pathologic response rates, looking at the downstaging effect, looking at the surgical margins after treatment with the neoadjuvant EV plus pembro in the 303. Now, remember in the 303, patients got three cycles of neoadjuvant EV plus pembro and then six cycles in the adjuvant setting. A little bit different than the 304, where they got four cycles, which is really kind of the standard in the neoadjuvant setting, and then five cycles in the adjuvant setting. So still a total of nine cycles. But in the 303, the treatment arm had no systemic therapy, so it was just radical cystectomy. And they looked at the negative margins that you get with the EV plus pembro treatment, which was 92.6% versus 79% with patients receiving just the surgery alone. And then the pathologic CR rate, there was more follow-up on that, it was 57% for the patients receiving EV plus pembro, and as we would expect, about 9% for the patients that just went on to surgery alone because you can achieve a pathologic response rate with TURBT alone. Then they looked at the pathologic downstaging, so anything less than a pT2, and that was 66% in the patients that received the EV plus pembro. So very interesting findings, and it is also really just nice to have now the EV-304 data, like I was saying, there were two pieces of it, the cisplatin-eligible and the cisplatin-ineligible, and just to have those contemporary controls are really important. How did the cisplatin-ineligible do versus the cisplatin-eligible patient in terms of the event-free survival and in terms of the overall survival? So I feel like now we have all of this data that we can kind of put together in the perioperative setting and we can really inform our patients a little bit more about their outcomes depending on whether they are cisplatin-eligible or not, which you know cisplatin-ineligible patients often just, they are sicker, they may have obstruction, their tumors may be larger, they just tend to be a more delicate population than the cisplatin-eligible patients. So not surprisingly, you know, we see that in the EV-303 the disease-free survival for the patients is pretty poor. So the disease-free survival that was reported for this follow-up of the specific abstract was 23.6 months for the patients that just got surgery, and it was not reached for the patients that had the EV plus pembro, and that was a hazard ratio of 0.37. Dr. Monty Pal: Excellent, excellent distillation. So Andrea, in the interest of time, I mean, we could probably talk about bladder cancer forever, but I am going to move us on to the subject of kidney cancer. We have two late-breaking abstracts, LITESPARK-011, which looked at lenvatinib and belzutifan versus cabozantinib in the advanced setting, and then we have an adjuvant study, LITESPARK-022, that looked at pembrolizumab with or without belzutifan in the adjuvant setting. Both studies positive. One for progression-free survival, the other for disease-free survival. Both I think making a big dent in how we treat kidney cancer. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Dr. Andrea Apolo: Yeah, we have been waiting for these trials for a long time. So one of the things that we have been talking about at GU ASCO is to have plenary sessions. And if we would have had a plenary session, these two abstracts would have been part of it because they are important data, really big studies where we are trying to improve the outcomes of our patients with kidney cancer. So the first one, the LITESPARK-011, like you said, this is for advanced renal cell carcinoma, clear cell renal cell carcinoma, where we really don't have a standard of care after IO therapy, right? So we give IO-IO, we give VEGF-IO, but we don't really have a good standard of care. We usually give monotherapy TKIs. So the combination of belzutifan and lenvatinib versus what a standard of care is, cabozantinib, is really an important question to ask. And you know, this is a pretty large study, about 750 patients were randomized. And belzutifan plus lenvatinib demonstrated an improvement in progression-free survival and overall survival versus cabozantinib, but not overall survival, at least not yet, is what the authors are saying. So for the progression-free survival, the hazard ratio was 0.7 and it was 14.8 months for the combination, belzutifan plus lenvatinib arm versus cabozantinib, which was 10.7 months. So I think that is significant. And for the overall survival, it did favor the combination again with a hazard ratio of 0.85. The median was 35 months versus 28 months for the monotherapy cabozantinib, but it did not reach statistical significance. And the authors said that this will be further tested at a final analysis, these were the interim results.  And for the overall survival, the overall survival was 53% for the combination versus 40%. This is significant. And the CR rates were lowish for both of them, it was like 5% for the combo and 1% for cabo monotherapy. So I think that the findings are important because we don't have a standard of care. And although there is no survival benefit, there was a trend. So I think this could be considered in patients that are fit, a treatment option for these patients in the later line settings. Dr. Monty Pal: Great points. I mean lots of great discussion around toxicity as well as efficacy. I mean certainly this is a regimen that may not be suitable for every patient in my portfolio, but certainly one to consider.  Now Andrea, let's shift focus to LITESPARK-022, the adjuvant trial that I mentioned previously. So this is again looking at pembrolizumab with or without belzutifan, met the primary endpoint of disease-free survival. What are your impressions there of the data? Dr. Andrea Apolo: Yeah, the data looks great. And this was a really large study, 1,800 patients were randomized, and the study met the primary endpoint of disease-free survival, benefiting the combination of pembro plus belzutifan. And that is really terrific. The medians were not reached for either arm. And in terms of the overall survival results, also the medians were not reached, but the hazard ratio was 0.78 and did not reach a statistical significance. So there was again a statistically significant improvement in disease-free survival for the combination of pembrolizumab plus belzutifan, but not an overall survival benefit.  So I guess, Monty, you know, we can kind of talk about what that means. There was a lot of discussion about belzutifan and some of the side effects, specifically anemia and managing anemia in this setting and requirements for transfusions. Generally, the authors said it was well tolerated, but we know that combination studies do have more toxicity. So it may be a select group of patients again, similar to the advanced setting, where we opt for a combination, possibly until we see more follow-up data in terms of the overall survival. Dr. Monty Pal: I have to agree with you. You know, in my group, we have been talking about a lot of pembrolizumab-based studies that are running right now, some through the NCI, some, you know, our own sort of homegrown investigator-sponsored trials, and you know, I think for the foreseeable future we are comfortable just maintaining pembrolizumab. Things might change if, for instance, we ultimately see a survival advantage emerge, but I just have my own personal doubts around that, that will be interesting.  Okay, so now we are going to move to the last disease category that we are going to cover, which is prostate cancer. So there, we have the long-awaited results from the PEACE-3 study. These are the final OS results from this trial looking at enzalutamide with or without radium-223 in metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer. So Andrea, would love to get your perspectives on this. Dr. Andrea Apolo: Yeah, so this study had been presented before and we had seen positive results for the combination of enzalutamide and radium with some interim overall survival results also showing a benefit. But like you said, these are the final results with a median follow-up of 58 months. So it was really nice to see the final results. And with the combination of enzalutamide and six cycles of radium, it did show an improvement in overall survival with a hazard ratio of 0.76. The median overall survival increased from 32.6 months to 38.2 months with the combination. So that is really great. There was some crossing over of the overall survival curves around 18 months was still seen. And again, there was also an improvement in the rPFS with a hazard ratio of 0.71, and the median rPFS improved from 16.4 to 19 months with the combination. So, you know, we have been awaiting the final results, but we kind of knew a lot about the benefits of the combination. And it is something that is kind of slowly trickling into the community in terms of adapting it and using it. There is more buzz now about it and I think these overall survival results will hopefully shift the community into incorporating the combination in these patients. Dr. Monty Pal: Brilliant. So well said. I mean, Andrea, congratulations on a terrific meeting. You have really done it again. Incredible, incredible output from this year's ASCO GU. I just want to thank you for joining us on the program today. Dr. Andrea Apolo: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Monty. It was really a joy to work with the ASCO team and with all the investigators and the Education Committee and the Scientific Committee. Everyone was really outstanding. So to me it was an honor to be part of this meeting, and I am so happy that it was so successful and really presented some amazing data that I think will be practice-changing to our patients. Dr. Monty Pal: Oh, thanks a ton. And also a huge thanks to our listeners. If you enjoyed the content of today's podcast, please don't forget to like and subscribe to our channel wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much. Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. Follow today's speakers:     Dr. Monty Pal   @montypal  Dr. Andrea Apolo @apolo_andrea  Follow ASCO on social media:          ASCO on X    ASCO on Bluesky         ASCO on Facebook          ASCO on LinkedIn          Disclosures:       Dr. Monty Pal:      Speakers' Bureau: MJH Life Sciences, IntrisiQ, Peerview     Research Funding (Inst.): Exelixis, Merck, Osel, Genentech, Crispr Therapeutics, Adicet Bio, ArsenalBio, Xencor, Miyarsian Pharmaceutical     Travel, Accommodations, Expenses: Crispr Therapeutics, Ipsen, Exelixis     Dr. Andrea Apolo: No disclosures to report.

With one day of Apple announcements left, the MacVoices panel tackles rising RAM and storage prices and what shortages could mean for upcoming devices. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Eric Bolden, Web Bixby, and Jim Rea debate whether Apple's bigger base configs are simply planned far in advance, a response to component pricing, or a signal of hardware requirements for upcoming AI features like an improved Siri. Attention then shifts to the rumored “Neo” MacBook, its likely education focus, and whether Apple's new displays risk becoming niche due to strict compatibility limits.  Today's MacVoices is supported by TV+ Talk, our MacVoices series with Charlotte Henry focused on Apple TV+. From shows and other content to the business side there's always something to learn about apple's streaming service. Find it at the Categories listings on the web site or go directly to macvoices.com/category/tv-talk. Show Notes: Chapters:   00:00 Opening and sponsor message00:35 RAM and storage shortages, pricing pressure01:24 Is Apple getting ahead of inflation?01:47 Product pipeline timing vs component leverage02:35 Base specs as AI/Siri requirements signal03:08 Apple margins on memory and supply resilience04:34 What's left in announcement week?05:50 “Neo” expectations and possible in-store focus06:45 Neo accessories and color speculation08:10 What people want from a small MacBook09:56 Education market and Chromebook replacement angle10:45 New Studio Display/XDR compatibility limits11:22 Refresh-rate requirements and OS minimums12:19 “It's a monitor”—why the requirements feel odd13:30 Impact on PC users and product niche concerns14:14 Long-term worries: minimum today, maximum later16:02 Keeping monitors for years vs forced upgrades17:34 Daisy-chaining and monitor feature discussion19:16 Desk gear tangent and high-end setups20:34 Microsoft Discord “microslop” filter story23:56 Wrap-up and where to find the panel Links: Microsoft banned this word from its Discord server. It's now a viral phenomenon—people are using it any way they canhttps://www.fastcompany.com/91501766/microsoft-discord-microslop-banned-viral-phenomenon Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

With one day of Apple announcements left, the MacVoices panel tackles rising RAM and storage prices and what shortages could mean for upcoming devices. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Eric Bolden, Web Bixby, and Jim Rea debate whether Apple's bigger base configs are simply planned far in advance, a response to component pricing, or a signal of hardware requirements for upcoming AI features like an improved Siri. Attention then shifts to the rumored "Neo" MacBook, its likely education focus, and whether Apple's new displays risk becoming niche due to strict compatibility limits.  http://traffic.libsyn.com/maclevelten/MV26091.mp3 Today's MacVoices is supported by TV+ Talk, our MacVoices series with Charlotte Henry focused on Apple TV+. From shows and other content to the business side there's always something to learn about apple's streaming service. Find it at the Categories listings on the web site or go directly to macvoices.com/category/tv-talk. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Opening and sponsor message 00:35 RAM and storage shortages, pricing pressure 01:24 Is Apple getting ahead of inflation? 01:47 Product pipeline timing vs component leverage 02:35 Base specs as AI/Siri requirements signal 03:08 Apple margins on memory and supply resilience 04:34 What's left in announcement week? 05:50 "Neo" expectations and possible in-store focus 06:45 Neo accessories and color speculation 08:10 What people want from a small MacBook 09:56 Education market and Chromebook replacement angle 10:45 New Studio Display/XDR compatibility limits 11:22 Refresh-rate requirements and OS minimums 12:19 "It's a monitor"—why the requirements feel odd 13:30 Impact on PC users and product niche concerns 14:14 Long-term worries: minimum today, maximum later 16:02 Keeping monitors for years vs forced upgrades 17:34 Daisy-chaining and monitor feature discussion 19:16 Desk gear tangent and high-end setups 20:34 Microsoft Discord "microslop" filter story 23:56 Wrap-up and where to find the panel Links: Microsoft banned this word from its Discord server. It's now a viral phenomenon—people are using it any way they can https://www.fastcompany.com/91501766/microsoft-discord-microslop-banned-viral-phenomenon Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

Shortly after the announcement, the MacVoices Live! panel  examines Apple's new M5 Mac lineup, including refreshed MacBook Pro and MacBook Air models. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Eric Bolden, Web Bixby, and Jim Rea compare upgrade paths from older machines, debate configuration choices and pricing, and consider real-world use cases such as portability, battery life, and education markets. The group also speculates about expansion possibilities for other Macs.  This edition of MacVoices is brought to you by the MacVoices Dispatch, our weekly newsletter that keeps you up-to-date on any and all MacVoices-related information. Subscribe today and don't miss a thing. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Introduction and show opening 00:08 Welcome and panel introductions 04:21 Apple's week of announcements and M5 MacBook Pro reveal 05:32 Fusion architecture and high-end configuration pricing 06:58 Reactions to the refreshed MacBook Air 07:43 Panelists discuss potential upgrade plans 10:40 Pricing considerations and configuration debates 12:22 Use cases: portability, durability, and battery life 15:37 Comparing new models with existing Macs 18:40 Evaluating upgrade needs vs. current performance 20:38 Rumors of a low-cost “Neo” MacBook 22:13 Education market possibilities for cheaper Macs 23:33 Notch discussion and real-world display experience 24:32 Touchscreen Macs: useful or unnecessary? 25:03 Workflow preferences and external display use 26:27 Potential buyers and color options speculation 27:48 Chip discussion: A-series vs. M-series possibilities Links: Apple Unveils MacBook Pro Featuring M5 Pro and M5 Max Chips With New Fusion Architecture https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/03/apple-unveils-macbook-pro-with-m5-pro-and-m5-max-chips-with-neural-accelerators/ Apple Announces MacBook Air With M5 Chip https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/03/apple-announces-macbook-air-with-m5/ Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud.   Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud.   Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support: Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect: Web:      http://macvoices.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/ MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/ Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher: Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

The MacVoices Live! panel continues to examine Apple's latest hardware news. This time,Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Eric Bolden, Web Bixby, and Jim Rea examine the refreshed Studio XDR display, an M4 iPad Air update, and the iPhone 17e. The crew debates whether premium displays justify their cost, why “pro” products struggle with mainstream perception, and how the iPad Air fits real workflows. They also praise the 17e's value, especially MagSafe and higher base storage, and speculate that rising base specs may be preparing for a smarter Siri.  This edition of MacVoices is supported by MacVoices Magazine, our free magazine on Flipboard. Updated daily with the best articles on the web to help you do more with your Apple gear and adjacent tech, access MacVoices Magazine content on Flipboard, on the web, or in your favorite RSS reader. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Opening and topics preview00:11 Support message and transition to announcements00:35 New Studio XDR: specs and the “monitor market” question01:36 Price vs. value: who should buy an XDR?02:42 Alternatives and real-world studio display satisfaction03:36 Stands, VESA mounts, and Apple pricing quirks04:28 “Gorgeous, but…” comparing to other high-end displays04:55 Pro reference monitors vs. consumer expectations06:16 Apple stepping back from the pro display space06:38 Mac Pro vs. Mac Studio: is the tower era over?09:41 “Studio” devices as the new pro lineup10:06 Laptops as pro machines and Thunderbolt expandability11:12 TV pricing collapse and why specialty stores quit TVs14:46 M4 iPad Air announcement: what changed and why15:00 Press reactions and positioning vs. iPad Pro16:08 Real-world cost build-up with keyboards/cellular17:25 iPad Air use cases: consumption, value, and longevity20:13 iPhone 17e: why coverage is surprisingly positive22:19 17 vs. 17e: display/camera tradeoffs, MagSafe returns23:44 Storage bump and expected sales impact25:59 Who the 17e is for—and who's waiting for the Fold30:10 A “modem phone” use case and privacy hopes31:32 iPad Pro in daily workflow: Notes + iCloud33:18 “Base specs” theory: preparing for the next Siri35:28 Timing, memory pressure, and avoiding future backlash37:14 Wrap-up and credits Links: Apple announces Studio Display XDR with 120Hz refresh rate, mini-LED, morehttps://9to5mac.com/2026/03/03/apple-announces-studio-display-xdr-with-120hz-refresh-rate-mini-led-more/ Apple Unveils iPad Air With M4 Chip, Increased RAM, Wi-Fi 7, and Morehttps://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/02/apple-announces-ipad-air-with-m4-chip/ Apple officially announces iPhone 17e with MagSafe, 256GB storage, morehttps://9to5mac.com/2026/03/02/apple-officially-announces-iphone-17e-with-magsafe-256gb-storage-more/ Guests:   Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

Shortly after the announcement, the MacVoices Live! panel  examines Apple's new M5 Mac lineup, including refreshed MacBook Pro and MacBook Air models. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Eric Bolden, Web Bixby, and Jim Rea compare upgrade paths from older machines, debate configuration choices and pricing, and consider real-world use cases such as portability, battery life, and education markets. The group also speculates about expansion possibilities for other Macs.  This edition of MacVoices is brought to you by the MacVoices Dispatch, our weekly newsletter that keeps you up-to-date on any and all MacVoices-related information. Subscribe today and don't miss a thing. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Introduction and show opening 00:08 Welcome and panel introductions 04:21 Apple's week of announcements and M5 MacBook Pro reveal 05:32 Fusion architecture and high-end configuration pricing 06:58 Reactions to the refreshed MacBook Air 07:43 Panelists discuss potential upgrade plans 10:40 Pricing considerations and configuration debates 12:22 Use cases: portability, durability, and battery life 15:37 Comparing new models with existing Macs 18:40 Evaluating upgrade needs vs. current performance 20:38 Rumors of a low-cost "Neo" MacBook 22:13 Education market possibilities for cheaper Macs 23:33 Notch discussion and real-world display experience 24:32 Touchscreen Macs: useful or unnecessary? 25:03 Workflow preferences and external display use 26:27 Potential buyers and color options speculation 27:48 Chip discussion: A-series vs. M-series possibilities Links: Apple Unveils MacBook Pro Featuring M5 Pro and M5 Max Chips With New Fusion Architecture https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/03/apple-unveils-macbook-pro-with-m5-pro-and-m5-max-chips-with-neural-accelerators/ Apple Announces MacBook Air With M5 Chip https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/03/apple-announces-macbook-air-with-m5/ Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud.   Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud.   Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

The MacVoices Live! panel continues to examine Apple's latest hardware news. This time,Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Brian Flanigan-Arthurs, Marty Jencius, Jeff Gamet, Eric Bolden, Web Bixby, and Jim Rea examine the refreshed Studio XDR display, an M4 iPad Air update, and the iPhone 17e. The crew debates whether premium displays justify their cost, why "pro" products struggle with mainstream perception, and how the iPad Air fits real workflows. They also praise the 17e's value, especially MagSafe and higher base storage, and speculate that rising base specs may be preparing for a smarter Siri.  This edition of MacVoices is supported by MacVoices Magazine, our free magazine on Flipboard. Updated daily with the best articles on the web to help you do more with your Apple gear and adjacent tech, access MacVoices Magazine content on Flipboard, on the web, or in your favorite RSS reader. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Opening and topics preview 00:11 Support message and transition to announcements 00:35 New Studio XDR: specs and the "monitor market" question 01:36 Price vs. value: who should buy an XDR? 02:42 Alternatives and real-world studio display satisfaction 03:36 Stands, VESA mounts, and Apple pricing quirks 04:28 "Gorgeous, but…" comparing to other high-end displays 04:55 Pro reference monitors vs. consumer expectations 06:16 Apple stepping back from the pro display space 06:38 Mac Pro vs. Mac Studio: is the tower era over? 09:41 "Studio" devices as the new pro lineup 10:06 Laptops as pro machines and Thunderbolt expandability 11:12 TV pricing collapse and why specialty stores quit TVs 14:46 M4 iPad Air announcement: what changed and why 15:00 Press reactions and positioning vs. iPad Pro 16:08 Real-world cost build-up with keyboards/cellular 17:25 iPad Air use cases: consumption, value, and longevity 20:13 iPhone 17e: why coverage is surprisingly positive 22:19 17 vs. 17e: display/camera tradeoffs, MagSafe returns 23:44 Storage bump and expected sales impact 25:59 Who the 17e is for—and who's waiting for the Fold 30:10 A "modem phone" use case and privacy hopes 31:32 iPad Pro in daily workflow: Notes + iCloud 33:18 "Base specs" theory: preparing for the next Siri 35:28 Timing, memory pressure, and avoiding future backlash 37:14 Wrap-up and credits Links: Apple announces Studio Display XDR with 120Hz refresh rate, mini-LED, more https://9to5mac.com/2026/03/03/apple-announces-studio-display-xdr-with-120hz-refresh-rate-mini-led-more/ Apple Unveils iPad Air With M4 Chip, Increased RAM, Wi-Fi 7, and More https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/02/apple-announces-ipad-air-with-m4-chip/ Apple officially announces iPhone 17e with MagSafe, 256GB storage, more https://9to5mac.com/2026/03/02/apple-officially-announces-iphone-17e-with-magsafe-256gb-storage-more/ Guests:   Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Brian Flanigan-Arthurs is an educator with a passion for providing results-driven, innovative learning strategies for all students, but particularly those who are at-risk. He is also a tech enthusiast who has a particular affinity for Apple since he first used the Apple IIGS as a student. You can contact Brian on twitter as @brian8944. He also recently opened a Mastodon account at @brian8944@mastodon.cloud. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

This MacVoices Live! discussion centers on Apple's planned removal of Rosetta support in macOS 26.4 and the implications for Intel-based applications still running under Apple Silicon. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Marty Jencius, Web Bixby, Jim Rea, Eric Bolden, and Jeff Gamet explore how many apps may still quietly depend on Rosetta, tools for identifying them, and why Apple is phasing out x86 components. The conversation shifts to legal questions surrounding pressure on Apple to remove an ICE-monitoring app from the App Store from a surprising source. MacVoices is supported by the new MacVoices Discord, a benefit exclusively for MacVoices Patrons. Sign up, get access, and join the conversations at Patreon.com/macvoices. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Rosetta Deprecation Announcement 00:27 Why Rosetta Is Going Away 01:20 Preparing for Legacy App Loss 05:04 Steam and Gaming Concerns 06:24 Checking Apps for Intel Dependencies 11:03 Utilities and Migration Surprises 13:25 Tools to Identify Rosetta Apps 15:11 Government Pressure on App Store Decisions 16:38 Legal and Free Speech Implications 20:59 App Store Policy Double Standards Links: macOS Tahoe 26.4 Displays Warnings for Apps That Won't Work After Rosetta 2 Support Ends https://www.macrumors.com/2026/02/16/macos-tahoe-26-4-rosetta-2-warnings/ Trump officials sued for pressuring Apple to remove an ICE monitoring app from the App Store https://appleworld.today/2026/02/trump-officials-sued-for-pressuring-apple-to-remove-an-ice-monitoring-app-from-the-app-store/ Guests:   Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support: Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect: Web:      http://macvoices.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/ MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/ Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher: Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

This MacVoices Live! discussion centers on Apple's planned removal of Rosetta support in macOS 26.4 and the implications for Intel-based applications still running under Apple Silicon. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Marty Jencius, Web Bixby, Jim Rea, Eric Bolden, and Jeff Gamet explore how many apps may still quietly depend on Rosetta, tools for identifying them, and why Apple is phasing out x86 components. The conversation shifts to legal questions surrounding pressure on Apple to remove an ICE-monitoring app from the App Store from a surprising source.  MacVoices is supported by the new MacVoices Discord, a benefit exclusively for MacVoices Patrons. Sign up, get access, and join the conversations at Patreon.com/macvoices. Show Notes: Chapters: 00:00 Rosetta Deprecation Announcement 00:27 Why Rosetta Is Going Away 01:20 Preparing for Legacy App Loss 05:04 Steam and Gaming Concerns 06:24 Checking Apps for Intel Dependencies 11:03 Utilities and Migration Surprises 13:25 Tools to Identify Rosetta Apps 15:11 Government Pressure on App Store Decisions 16:38 Legal and Free Speech Implications 20:59 App Store Policy Double Standards Links: macOS Tahoe 26.4 Displays Warnings for Apps That Won't Work After Rosetta 2 Support Ends https://www.macrumors.com/2026/02/16/macos-tahoe-26-4-rosetta-2-warnings/ Trump officials sued for pressuring Apple to remove an ICE monitoring app from the App Store https://appleworld.today/2026/02/trump-officials-sued-for-pressuring-apple-to-remove-an-ice-monitoring-app-from-the-app-store/ Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/HetwIy51kiE Stop panicking when the market drops! Learn why "red days" are actually the best thing for long-term investors. In this video, I break down a concept inspired by ScottsInvesting on the Blossom Social app: why buying a stock and then wishing for the price to drop is actually the most logical move you can make. If you are in the "accumulation phase" of your life, a bull market is actually your enemy. What you'll learn: *The Inventory Mindset:* Why you should treat your portfolio like a business buying stock, not just a flashing dollar sign. *Net Buyers vs. Net Sellers:* Why your age and career stage completely change how you should view market volatility. *Sequence of Returns Risk:* Why a red market is a "gift" to a 30-year-old but a "threat" to a 70-year-old. *The 3-Step Checklist:* How to tell the difference between a "discount" and a "value trap" by looking at business momentum, balance sheets, and competitive advantages. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned pro, shifting your unit of measurement from "account balance" to "share count" will change the way you invest forever. Join me on Blossom Social: https://www.blossomsocial.com/See my real-time portfolio and trades: Username: MarcB #Investing #StockMarket #FinancialLiteracy #PassiveIncome #BlossomSocial #MarketCorrection

In this episode of PEM Currents: The Pediatric Emergency Medicine Podcast, we take a structured, evidence-based approach to the acute treatment of migraine in children and adolescents. From confirming the diagnosis and screening for concerning features to optimizing outpatient therapy and executing a protocolized emergency department strategy, this episode walks through what works. We review the role of NSAIDs and triptans, clarify how IV fluids and ketorolac fit into care, and provide a stepwise framework for dopamine antagonists, valproate bridge therapy, DHE protocols, steroids, discharge planning, and admission decisions. Practical dosing, reassessment timing, and family-centered communication strategies are emphasized throughout. Learning Objectives Recognize the clinical features of pediatric migraine and distinguish it from secondary causes of headache. Implement a stepwise, evidence-based emergency department approach to acute pediatric migraine, including appropriate medication selection and timing of reassessment. Develop safe discharge and follow-up plans by defining treatment endpoints, minimizing medication overuse, and identifying patients who require referral or inpatient management. References 1. Oskoui M, Pringsheim T, Holler-Managan Y, et al. Practice Guideline Update Summary: Acute Treatment of Migraine in Children and Adolescents: Report of the Guideline Development, Dissemination, and Implementation Subcommittee of the American Academy of Neurology and the American Headache Society. Neurology. 2019;93(11):487-499. doi:10.1212/WNL.0000000000008095. 2. Patterson-Gentile C, Szperka CL. The Changing Landscape of Pediatric Migraine Therapy: A Review. JAMA Neurology. 2018;75(7):881-887. doi:10.1001/jamaneurol.2018.0046. 3. Bachur RG, Monuteaux MC, Neuman MI. A Comparison of Acute Treatment Regimens for Migraine in the Emergency Department. Pediatrics. 2015;135(2):232-238. doi:10.1542/peds.2014-2432. 4. Ashina M. Migraine. The New England Journal of Medicine. 2020;383(19):1866-1876. doi:10.1056/NEJMra1915327. 5. Richer L, Billinghurst L, Linsdell MA, et al. Drugs for the Acute Treatment of Migraine in Children and Adolescents. The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews. 2016;4:CD005220. doi:10.1002/14651858.CD005220.pub2. Transcript This transcript was generated using Descript automated transcription software and has been reviewed and edited for accuracy by the episode's author. Edits were limited to correcting names, titles, medical terminology, and transcription errors. The content reflects the original spoken audio and was not substantively altered. And today we're gonna talk about the acute treatment of migraine headache in children and adolescents. This is bread and butter for the PED, requires precise diagnosis and evidence-based treatment. We're gonna talk about making that diagnosis, red flags, outpatient and ED treatment, as well as some second-line agents, admission decisions, and a whole lot more. So migraine in children is defined by three criteria, and at least five attacks lasting two to 72 hours. So you gotta have at least two of the following: pulsating or throbbing quality, moderate to severe intensity, aggravation by routine activity, and a unilateral location. Although in children, it's often bilateral, plus at least one of nausea or vomiting and photophobia and/or phonophobia. In children headaches are frequently bilateral, bifrontal, bitemporal. The duration might be shorter than adults, especially in kids under second or third grade. And you may have to infer whether or not they have photophobia from their behavior. Like does the child close their eyes or wanna go into a dark room? In the emergency department, we're often diagnosing based on pattern recognition plus exclusion of dangerous secondary causes. Or even more often than that, the patient comes in and says, I've got a migraine. Before I move on to treatments, let's talk about some red flags where you might wanna pause and not just jump to migraine therapy. And the mnemonic SNOOP can be helpful here. And it stands for S for systemic symptoms such as fevers, myalgia, weight loss, or another S, secondary risk factors such as an immune deficiency, cancer, pregnancy, N for neurologic signs, papilledema, focal deficit, confusion, seizures. O onset sudden, or thunderclap. Migraines are often a little more gradual than that. The other O is older age, or technically younger age too, younger than five years or older than 50. Hopefully those patients are not coming into the pediatric emergency department. And then pattern changes, these new symptoms in a previously stable pattern. Don't ignore that. And precipitants, you know, is it worse with Valsalva, position change, or under significant exertion? If these signs are present, you'll probably wanna take a pause and just not throw migraine treatment at the patient. If they're stable, MRI is the preferred imaging modality, but a very sick patient, it'd be okay to get a head CT. If you've got a normal neurologic exam, there's no red flags. Again, you don't need routine imaging for migraine headaches. So let's talk about treatment. So hopefully patients have actually started to treat their headache before they arrive in the emergency department. If they haven't, it's a good idea to have some triage protocols in place. So ibuprofen, 7.5 to 10 milligrams per kilogram, 10 milligrams per kilogram is superior to placebo and it's superior to acetaminophen at two hours. So that's what we would use. Early treatment's critical. So ideally within the first hour of onset. So that's why triage protocols help. We'll give kids 10 mg per kg of ibuprofen and like 30 ounces of Gatorade. Blue is often the first Gatorade choice, though that's not an evidence-based statement. You can also use naproxen, but most of the studies are on ibuprofen. If NSAIDs fail, many adolescents and some older children will be prescribed triptans. The best evidence currently supports sumatriptan plus naproxen or zolmitriptan nasal spray. Rizatriptan is FDA approved down to age six. Adolescents respond to these agents better than younger children, and the route matters. The nasal formulations help when nausea is prominent. Families should be counseled to treat early, use weight-appropriate dosing, and avoid using acute medications more than 10 days per month. Often patients will have already taken an NSAID and a triptan before they get to the ED, and that's where we get into the treatment of refractory migraine. Now this is most of the patients that I will see, and before we push medications, let's briefly review ED treatment goals. You either want the patient headache free. Back to their baseline or mild descending pain. So a pain score of one to three. If you don't reach one of those endpoints and it's not agreed upon with the patient and their family, you've not completed treatments. You should do a reassessment within one hour after each intervention. And let's face it, if you're not reassessing within an hour and defining treatment goals, you're not practicing protocolized migraine care. So in the emergency department, many of you may be familiar with the migraine cocktail. So what is that? In general, it's a dopaminergic agent such as prochlorperazine or metoclopramide plus ketorolac, plus IV fluids. Let's take a look at all three of those components and see if you can guess which one is actually the one that can abort the migraine. So fluids are commonly given in pediatric migraine, but they alone do not treat it. They're helpful. Many patients have been throwing up or a bit dehydrated, but there are small randomized trials that show essentially no meaningful pain reduction in patients that get IV fluids alone. Well, what about ketorolac? Toradol, like that's the first thing you give to a kid with a kidney stone, right? It does help, but it's really adjunctive. So the main first-line agents for refractory or status migrainosus in the emergency department are the dopamine antagonists, and the first-line treatment for most patients is prochlorperazine or Compazine. The dose is 0.15 milligram per kilogram IV. The max is 10 milligrams. This is the backbone of ED migraine care. And why do they work? Well, migraines aren't just some random vascular headache. This is an inherited disorder with central pain pathways gone awry. Dopamine plays a large role in that pain, nausea, hypersensitivity, amplification of symptoms and more that, frankly, I won't get into this podcast because molecules hurt my head. The dopamine antagonists treat the headache, they reduce the nausea, and they just tamp down this process. Overall, the response rates approach 85%. Some studies have suggested that the response rate is about 77% at an hour and 90% at three hours. If you add the ketorolac and IV fluids, you get your response rate up to about 93 to 94%. These agents really do work well together. There have been randomized trials comparing IV prochlorperazine versus ketorolac. 85% of prochlorperazine patients achieved headache relief versus only 55% of ketorolac patients. So ketorolac helps, but really it's the prochlorperazine. Metoclopramide, or Reglan, is used in a lot of centers as well. There are some smaller studies in children and adolescents that show that prochlorperazine is more effective, but if kids have an adverse reaction, more on that in a moment, or they prefer metoclopramide because they've responded to it in the past, it's okay to go with it as well. Right. So what does it actually look like when you give the migraine cocktail to a patient? I think it's important to explain to patients and families what to expect, and if this is a teenager, I'm talking to them directly. I mean, they're getting the medication first and foremost. I tell them that the most effective way to treat their headache is with an IV. This often causes lots of angst, even in older teenagers. The medication just does not get to the brain as effectively and fast enough if you take it by mouth. Many patients who get the dopaminergic agents, so prochlorperazine, will invariably feel jittery or anxious or like they gotta move or like they got ants in their pants. I tell them to expect this so they're not surprised and worried when it happens. I tell them that once they start feeling that way, it means the medicine is probably working. They need to hit the nurse button and we're gonna get them up and have them take a walk. This fixes it for the majority of patients just getting up and moving. In adult centers, even with the initial administration of the prochlorperazine or as sort of a reflexive response to any of those symptoms, they just give a slug of IV Benadryl. There's some studies in adolescents especially that this may decrease the effectiveness of the IV agents you're giving in the first place, and it may also increase return rates to the ED. So I will use IV diphenhydramine if getting up and moving around isn't working, or if the distress is significant, or if the patient clearly indicates they've needed it in the past. So if after the migraine cocktail, the patient has met their pain goals and the reassessment is favorable, they can go home to outpatient follow-up. How about if the headache got better, but not all the way? It's usually when the initial migraine cocktail didn't achieve the pain endpoints fully, like it helped partially. If the dopamine blockade didn't do anything, valproate is unlikely to rescue the case. And so valproate works on GABA and it stabilizes some of these pain processes, but the dopaminergic agent needs to have done something first for valproate to work. Per the most common protocol, you give an initial dose of IV valproate, then you discharge the patient home on Depakote ER. So oral valproic acid under 10 years old or under 50 kilograms, 250 milligrams PO twice a day for two weeks, or older than 10 or greater than 50 kilos, 500 milligrams twice a day for two weeks. This is the extended release and it's most helpful if you give the first oral dose in the emergency department. So that's why it's very important to build this protocol in advance. If you don't have IV valproate, then don't just give the patient oral valproate, and definitely don't prescribe an oral course for discharge. All right, well, what about DHE? Dihydroergotamine for refractory or status migrainosus? Generally, this is only given at pediatric centers where you have neurology coverage. It's contraindicated if you've had another dose of DHE within 14 days, or you've had any triptan of any sort within 24 hours, and you must obtain a pregnancy test in adolescent females before giving it. The dosing for less than 30 kilograms is 0.5 milligram. At least 30 kilograms is one milligram. You give 50% of the dose over three minutes, then the remaining 50% over 30 minutes. If this is gonna work, the patients are gonna start feeling wretched at first. They're gonna get very nauseous and they're gonna vomit. They're gonna have flushing, and you'll see transient hypertension. Most of that resolves within the hour in most centers. If you're committing to DHE, you're kind of bringing the patient into the hospital anyway, though some facilities will have DHE done in the emergency department with close outpatient follow-up. Either way, it's really best practice to involve child neurology if you're giving DHE. Alright, well what about steroids? They give those in grownups too, right? Steroids really only have a role for recurrence prevention in children. So for kids that have a history of returning within 72 hours for rebound headache, you can give dexamethasone 0.6 milligram per kilogram IV dose, the max of 10 milligrams. You do not discharge them home on a steroid prescription or a Medrol dose pack or something else, and this can cut the recurrence risk down a bit. There's other therapies out there like magnesium and ketamine. There's just not enough evidence there. And the purpose of this episode is to discuss the therapies that have good evidence behind them and should be part of protocols across the country. Some patients are unfortunately not responsive to emergency department therapy and need admission. The main inpatient therapy is the DHE protocol. If they're not DHE eligible, they haven't tolerated it well or it's unavailable, admission's unlikely to help them unless they just need some IV fluids to help them get back up on their feet. You should consult neurology if the headache goals are not met after maximizing ED therapy for advice. And we should definitely avoid opioids. They don't treat patients with migraines. They increase recurrence risk. They increase revisit rates. Again, the dopamine antagonist prochlorperazine, it's superior for sustained relief when families ask about them, and fortunately they're asking about opioids far less. We use medications that treat the migraine pain pathways and signaling. We don't just wanna mask the pain. All right, so that's all I've got on the acute management of migraine headaches, especially in the emergency department. Remember that migraine care in the ED should be protocolized and evidence-based. IV fluids are supportive. Prochlorperazine is the first line, or you can use metoclopramide as well. Ketorolac is an adjunctive therapy. Valproate is next line. If you've gotta escalate, and DHE is specialized therapy, you can start in the ED, but most of these patients are getting admitted. Dexamethasone or steroids in children can reduce recurrence risk, but they're not really part of the acute management. You should definitely define the endpoints and structurally and systematically reassess patients at an hour. The goal is to get them feeling better to a defined endpoint and to restore function. There is evidence-based pediatric emergency migraine care. You should understand that, plus how to explain why these agents are being given and some of the side effects to patients and families. I find that that approach increases your likelihood of buy-in and success. Alright, so that's it for this episode on the Acute Management of Migraine Headaches in Children and Adolescents. I hope you found it helpful and I can pretty much guarantee that you're gonna see a patient with a migraine on your next shift. If you've got any feedback or comments, send them my way. If you like this episode, leave a review on your favorite podcast site. It helps more people find the show. Or recommend it to a colleague. If there's other topics that you'd like to hear, send them my way for the Pediatric Emergency Medicine podcast. This has been Brad Sobolewski. See you next time.    

The big things you need to know:We run through five things we're thinking about regarding recent developments in the Middle East from a stock market perspective.Then, we wrap up with a few things we're watching in terms of general stats to help us know when the recent risk off mood in markets may have played out.

Apple has debunked media reports claiming low adoption of iOS 26. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Marty Jencius, Web Bixby, Jim Rea, Eric Bolden, and Jeff Gamet discuss the assertion that the data was skewed by Apple's privacy-driven device misreporting. They review how official numbers show strong uptake among eligible devices and debate whether criticisms of the new interface are overblown. While some UI concerns are acknowledged, the group agrees the release offers meaningful improvements and is far from the failure some headlines suggested.  This edition of MacVoices is brought to you by our Patreon supporters. Get access to the MacVoices Slack and MacVoices After Dark by joining in at Patreon.com/macvoices. Show Notes: Chapters: 0:00 iOS adoption controversy introduced0:28 Claims of low adoption challenged2:04 Telemetry and agent string misreporting3:50 Evaluating Apple's official adoption numbers5:13 Privacy-driven device obfuscation explained6:30 Clickbait and misinterpreted analytics reports7:57 Debate over “liquid glass” interface complaints9:03 Objective UI usability concerns raised12:03 Design philosophy and Apple's UI direction13:18 System Settings and long-term interface frustrations15:49 Improvements and benefits in iOS 2618:35 Broader reflections on Apple UI evolution19:12 Overall assessment: not a disaster, but debated Links: Apple Reveals How Many iPhones Are Running iOS 26https://www.macrumors.com/2026/02/13/apple-shares-ios-26-adoption-stats/ Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession ‘firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

Apple has debunked media reports claiming low adoption of iOS 26. Chuck Joiner, David Ginsburg, Marty Jencius, Web Bixby, Jim Rea, Eric Bolden, and Jeff Gamet discuss the assertion that the data was skewed by Apple's privacy-driven device misreporting. They review how official numbers show strong uptake among eligible devices and debate whether criticisms of the new interface are overblown. While some UI concerns are acknowledged, the group agrees the release offers meaningful improvements and is far from the failure some headlines suggested.  This edition of MacVoices is brought to you by our Patreon supporters. Get access to the MacVoices Slack and MacVoices After Dark by joining in at Patreon.com/macvoices. Show Notes: Chapters: 0:00 iOS adoption controversy introduced 0:28 Claims of low adoption challenged 2:04 Telemetry and agent string misreporting 3:50 Evaluating Apple's official adoption numbers 5:13 Privacy-driven device obfuscation explained 6:30 Clickbait and misinterpreted analytics reports 7:57 Debate over "liquid glass" interface complaints 9:03 Objective UI usability concerns raised 12:03 Design philosophy and Apple's UI direction 13:18 System Settings and long-term interface frustrations 15:49 Improvements and benefits in iOS 26 18:35 Broader reflections on Apple UI evolution 19:12 Overall assessment: not a disaster, but debated Links: Apple Reveals How Many iPhones Are Running iOS 26 https://www.macrumors.com/2026/02/13/apple-shares-ios-26-adoption-stats/ Guests: Web Bixby has been in the insurance business for 40 years and has been an Apple user for longer than that.You can catch up with him on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, but prefers Bluesky. Eric Bolden is into macOS, plants, sci-fi, food, and is a rural internet supporter. You can connect with him on Twitter, by email at embolden@mac.com, on Mastodon at @eabolden@techhub.social, on his blog, Trending At Work, and as co-host on The Vision ProFiles podcast. Jeff Gamet is a technology blogger, podcaster, author, and public speaker. Previously, he was The Mac Observer's Managing Editor, and the TextExpander Evangelist for Smile. He has presented at Macworld Expo, RSA Conference, several WordCamp events, along with many other conferences. You can find him on several podcasts such as The Mac Show, The Big Show, MacVoices, Mac OS Ken, This Week in iOS, and more. Jeff is easy to find on social media as @jgamet on Twitter and Instagram, jeffgamet on LinkedIn., @jgamet@mastodon.social on Mastodon, and on his YouTube Channel at YouTube.com/jgamet. David Ginsburg is the host of the weekly podcast In Touch With iOS where he discusses all things iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch, and related technologies. He is an IT professional supporting Mac, iOS and Windows users. Visit his YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/daveg65 and find and follow him on Twitter @daveg65 and on Mastodon at @daveg65@mastodon.cloud. Dr. Marty Jencius has been an Associate Professor of Counseling at Kent State University since 2000. He has over 120 publications in books, chapters, journal articles, and others, along with 200 podcasts related to counseling, counselor education, and faculty life. His technology interest led him to develop the counseling profession 'firsts,' including listservs, a web-based peer-reviewed journal, The Journal of Technology in Counseling, teaching and conferencing in virtual worlds as the founder of Counselor Education in Second Life, and podcast founder/producer of CounselorAudioSource.net and ThePodTalk.net. Currently, he produces a podcast about counseling and life questions, the Circular Firing Squad, and digital video interviews with legacies capturing the history of the counseling field. This is also co-host of The Vision ProFiles podcast. Generally, Marty is chasing the newest tech trends, which explains his interest in A.I. for teaching, research, and productivity. Marty is an active presenter and past president of the NorthEast Ohio Apple Corp (NEOAC). Jim Rea built his own computer from scratch in 1975, started programming in 1977, and has been an independent Mac developer continuously since 1984. He is the founder of ProVUE Development, and the author of Panorama X, ProVUE's ultra fast RAM based database software for the macOS platform. He's been a speaker at MacTech, MacWorld Expo and other industry conferences. Follow Jim at provue.com and via @provuejim@techhub.social on Mastodon. Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss