Jewelry Journey Podcast

What you'll learn in this episode: How Sharon's own jewelry journey began and how her family is preserving her exceptional collection. Who Sharon considers her most memorable guests and which insights stuck with her over the years. What prompted Sharon to travel the world to study jewelry, and what she learned during her decades of studying the art form. Sharon's tips for new podcasters on how to create a show with longevity. How you can share your memories of Sharon and continue to connect with the Jewelry Journey community. About Sharon Berman Sharon Berman is managing principal of Berbay Marketing & Public Relations, specializing in working with professionals to create the visibility and credibility that fuel revenue growth. After 20 years of positioning lawyers and other trusted advisors as experts, Sharon launched Arts and Jewelry and expanded her scope to include professionals in the decorative arts and jewelry fields. A passionate jewelry collector, Sharon is studying for her GIA Graduate Gemology diploma. She is on the Board of Art Jewelry Forum, and is a member of the Association for the Study of Jewelry & Related Arts, American Society of Jewelry Historians, Society of Jewellery Historians and Society of North American Goldsmiths. Sharon writes and speaks frequently about business development and marketing for professionals. She has been a speaker at the Antique & Estate Jewelry Conference (“Jewelry Camp”). Sharon earned her undergraduate degree at UCLA and her MBA at USC. Additional Links to Articles About Sharon and Her Life: Berbay Art Jewelry Forum For donations in lieu of flowers, please follow the next link to Simms Mann program at UCLA, which was important to Sharon and Jonathan: Donations Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone! Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Jonathan: In fact, it's not going to be Sharon today. I'm Jonathan Kramer, known to some as Mr. Sharon Berman, and I'll open this podcast with some news, not unexpected in some quarters. Sharon passed away in August 2024 from the long-term effects of cancer. Sharon lived a long and productive life. Even after her cancer diagnosis some nine years ago and her prognosis that she would only live for five years, she soldiered through, did an amazing job of prolonging her life, and in some important ways, did that through this Jewelry Journey Podcast. In the podcast you're about to hear, Sharon's jewelry journey is going to be the subject. My youngest daughter, Aleah Kramer, is interviewing Sharon. This interview took place a couple of months before Sharon's passing. It's going to be the same thing you've heard before about a person's jewelry journey, but it's going to be very personal to Sharon. Sharon's jewelry journey with me began 32 plus years ago when we were dating each other, and it was very clear that we were going to get married. Sharon made it very clear that I should not bother to buy her an engagement ring and that she would take care of that herself. That was very typical of the Sharon I would come to know and love and typical of her approach to jewelry. She didn't want to leave it to me to pick out her engagement ring and just said to me, “Don't worry about that.” She ended up ordering some diamonds to evaluate from Empire State Jewelers in the Empire State Building. I remember that. She picked out the stone she liked, and she picked out the setting that she wanted it to be and had it constructed. That should have told me three decades ago that I was with a very special woman who knew her taste in jewelry and wasn't going to be sidetracked in that. That was actually the beginning of my jewelry journey with Sharon. Her jewelry journey has been one of passion and pleasure, and she's become quite the well-known person, even before she began this series of podcasts. I'm amazingly proud of what she's accomplished in terms of her own jewelry journey, and I have to say she's had an exquisite palate in the selecting and enjoyment of jewelry. She didn't just buy jewelry to collect it. She wore her jewelry all the time. It was a source of pleasure, and it made her feel comfortable. Her jewelry was a source of comfort for her. She would find these incredible makers and go out and interview them and purchase their goods. She really supported emerging artists. That was one of the gateways to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She wanted to share that enthusiasm for the up-and-coming makers with people that she talked with all the time. The more she talked to people, the more people said, “You know what? You should do a podcast and share this.” That's how the Jewelry Journey Podcast really started, some 225-ish episodes ago. We're going to leave the podcast up for people to listen to and hopefully enjoy and learn from. It will be a good and honorable tribute to Sharon's jewelry journey to do that. With that, I'm going to let Aleah do the magic of editing here. She's been the editor of these podcasts and has done an amazing job pulling all of this together. I am deeply grateful for her participation in the podcast and, more importantly, the fact that she and Sharon were really partners in this jewelry journey. I am indebted to Sharon for really opening Aleah's eyes to the jewelry journey. Aleah has become an exquisite collector and has gotten as much joy out of collecting as Sharon. With that, we'll go to the podcast that Sharon talks about her jewelry journey, and then I'll come back at the end to close this out. Sharon: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey. I'm your host, Sharon Berman, and today we have a bit of a different episode. I have a few announcements to make, and then I'm going to share some of my jewelry journey. To help me with that, I'm going to introduce Aleah Kramer. First, thank you all for listening. If this is your first time, a big welcome. If you are familiar with this podcast, welcome back. I'm sorry to report that we suddenly lost several gems in the jewelry world. One of them is Cookie Lewis, who I can't say had a defined role, but she was my best friend. I've known her for 30 years and have been very friendly for the past 20 years, and she really got me into jewelry. Cookie was a very nice person, but I think anybody who knew her for any length of time would say she's a tough cookie. She had definite opinions that were difficult to change. I wouldn't always listen, but I knew she knew her stuff. I saw salespeople who would look at her when she contradicted them. They would look at her like, “Lady, you don't know what you're talking about,” but they'd go back and ask, and sure enough, she was right. Then they would take something out of one case and put it in another. She knew her stones and could always identify the flaws in stones much better than I could, despite all the study I've done. Cookie Lewis will be missed. The next gem that we lost is Robert Allen. Robert did our transcriptions. Robert did transcriptions for me for eight to 10 years, but for the Jewelry Journey since its inception. He had great analytical skills, as did Cookie, but they were both creative in their different ways. In my experience, I've found that people who are good at analysis aren't really the best people for creative endeavors. I thought they both could look outside of their analytical areas and look at the creative aspects of their profession. For instance, every year about Christmas time, Robert Allen would call me with a different idea. "Hey Sharon, I was thinking, what do you think of this?" Then he'd go into it. I can't tell you that I always accepted them or implemented them, but I thought it was really nice that he thought about it. I'll miss that. Our new co-host has been involved in the podcast for a long time but behind the scenes. Now she's coming out of the shadows. Her name is Aleah Kramer, and she's been a producer, an editor, a transcriber, and a pinch hitter. She's also my stepdaughter. She's also joined me on several voyages that I've gone on for the Jewelry Journey, and I would say that is really her métier. She knows it very well, art jewelry. Aleah: Thank you so much, Sharon. That was such a lovely introduction. Hi, everybody. My name is Aleah Kramer, and I am so excited that we're going to share some of your jewelry journey today. Sharon, you always ask your guests a few important questions, and I've always wondered what your answers to these questions are. I wanted to ask you, how did you first become interested in jewelry? Sharon: I think I first became interested in jewelry because I liked jewelry, but really it was Cookie Lewis who drew me into jewelry. She introduced me to estate jewelry, and from there I was off and running. Aleah: What are some of your favorite types of jewelry? Sharon: I like contemporary jewelry, some art jewelry. I used to like it a lot more. And estate jewelry of any kind. By estate jewelry, I mean used jewelry. That's how most people would define it. Aleah: I often hear you ask your guests about collecting and what defines a collector. What do you define as a collector? Sharon: That's a hard-to-answer question. I've been asked that before. I still don't have a good answer. What is a collector? A collector can be somebody who has three or more of the same kind of piece, three or more pieces by the same named jeweler or the same named maker. I really don't have a definition, and here I'm asking everybody who comes on what they define as a collector. Somebody told me they thought they were a really good shepherd of jewelry, and I thought that was interesting. I'm not sure that really fits the bill, but it was interesting to hear. What do you define as a collector, Aleah? Aleah: Oh, I'm too early in the biz to have any definitions. I'm interested in exploring all of the avenues and creating some definitions, but I am definitely not defining anything yet. Sharon: Okay, I think that's very smart. Aleah: Do you have a favorite piece of jewelry? I know you have a beautiful and extensive collection. Do you have a favorite piece of jewelry or a favorite artist? Sharon: Well, I have maybe one or two pieces by named artists, Cartier, that sort of thing. But I don't collect Cartier. The name people, I might have one piece, not because I was collecting or gathering them together. Not, “Oh, I have a piece by A, now I want a piece by B or C.” They just came to me, or I liked them. I don't have a favorite piece, except I would say there is a person in France who does beautiful, large rings. I happen to like statement jewelry. It has to be large, and it has to make a statement. It has to be a statement piece. Her name is Sylvie Corbelin, and she's represented here by Lionel Geneste. We just did a podcast with him. I'm probably butchering his name, but he represents her. She is a very talented and creative person. Aleah: She makes some really exquisite jewelry with high-end materials, such beautiful gold and such beautiful gemstones. They end up looking like paintings and works of art that you can wear on your finger or on your neck or as earrings. Sharon: It's a good way to describe it. Some of it is just very pretty! Pretty and unusual. Aleah: How long have you been a part of Art Jewelry Forum? Sharon: For about 10 years or more, but I was involved for maybe a couple of years. I'm not currently involved. I just look at what they have and the people they have on. Aleah: How did you get involved? How did you find them? Sharon: I found them because I was looking for ways to travel and learn about jewelry. When I found them, I didn't even know what art jewelry was, and I wasn't that interested. But when I saw that they were traveling, I was really interested. That's how I got involved. Aleah: What specifically about traveling to see jewelry interested you? Sharon: Because I like to travel and because there are very few places you can learn about jewelry by traveling. You know yourself there are only a few places. I could name them on one hand. I don't even need one hand. Aleah: How do you feel about the jewelry market in L.A.? Sharon: The jewelry market in L.A. is one-sided, and that's why I like to travel. Art jewelry really started out in Sweden, in Scandinavian countries, in the Netherlands. Here you don't see art jewelry. Here, I think it's very blingy, shiny. It has to catch your attention, and that makes sense. But it's not the kind I like. Aleah: Let's talk about the trips. About how many trips have you been on? Sharon: About seven or eight. Aleah: Do you remember the first trip that you took? Sharon: Well, you just reminded me. Abroad or with them? Aleah: Let's start with abroad trips, and then even national trips that you've done in America with Art Jewelry Forum. Sharon: Well, I think some of the most memorable trips—we went to some places I never thought we would be, like Estonia. The Netherlands is de rigueur, but Estonia, I was really surprised I was ever there. Where else did we go? Aleah: Do you remember the trips to Germany for Schmuck? Sharon: That's right. We took several trips to Germany because Schmuck is there. That's the name of it. Schmuck means jewelry in German, and it's the largest market for jewelry. Art jewelry is displayed there. People go one year, they skip a year, then they go another year, so that's where we went. I came across a sweater. It was an art jeweler sweater, but it was a sweater I got there. I thought, “Gee, I forgot I had this.” That was a lot of fun. That's what I found with Art Jewelry Forum. If you travel a lot, you've seen things they're showing. Aleah: What inspired you to start the Jewelry Journey Podcast in 2019? Sharon: I'd been thinking about it for a long time, and I thought, “What better time than the present?” I wasn't sure what I was going to do with it, but I thought, “Just start it and see where it takes you.” Aleah: What were some of the key goals or motivations when you launched the podcast? Sharon: I'm thinking about that. Just to study jewelry in more depth. That was one of my key goals. I like talking and thinking about jewelry. That was another key goal. It gave me an excuse to talk to a lot of the jewelers I knew who wouldn't talk to me. They were friendly, but they wouldn't necessarily talk to me unless I was asking them questions. Aleah: That's a really interesting answer. I hadn't thought about that as well. Sometimes when you're just talking to them, they're not that open. But when you get them into a podcast setting, they really do open up. You have really asked some interesting questions of people. Thank you for that answer. I'm really interested in that. In the 220 plus episodes that you've done, what have been some of the most memorable or impactful stories that you've covered? Sharon: I don't know if I have any that are so impactful, except one came from a jeweler. He said that the most important thing you have to remember when you're selling jewelry online is what the return policy is. I thought, “Well, he's really right.” I've never forgotten that. That's probably the only thing I haven't forgotten. Aleah: That's a very important thing not to forget! Sharon: Yeah, but I think he's right. It was a good point. Aleah: What are some of the most important trends or developments you've observed in the jewelry industry over the past four years? Sharon: I would say, and I think a lot of people would agree with me, is probably the use of lab-grown diamonds becoming more accepted. They are a lot more accepted. Today I would look at them a second time in my jewelry. If somebody showed me a lab-grown diamond several years ago, I wasn't interested, but they've become a lot more acceptable in the past few years. Aleah: Which episodes or topics have resonated the most with you and with your listeners? I think you've really been impacted by cataloging. Sharon: Aleah, I think that's a very good point in that I've spent the past—what I thought was going to be three weeks—six months working with somebody to catalog my jewelry. Aleah and I tried various means. We tried Excel, and we tried all these different ways that were supposed to help you catalog your jewelry. I think we settled on one called Collector Systems. I resisted because that has a subscription of about $1,000 a year, but it's the best one. The best one I could find, at least. I do have to give credit to Mara, who helped me do it. She also helped Aleah do it. When she asked how long I thought it would take, I really thought it was going to take three weeks, but it took forever. I had more than I thought, and we try and keep it up to date. Aleah: It's absolutely been a fun challenge. Sharon: When I'm going to sleep at night, I think, “Oh, I have to tell Mara that I sold that, or I gave it away or I acquired this, so we keep it up to date.” I'm usually behind the ball when it comes to that. Aleah: What have been some of the biggest challenges that you've faced in producing a weekly podcast about jewelry? Sharon: I haven't been able to think that far ahead. We've talked about starting a newsletter. I've wanted to be a few weeks ahead so I could announce things in the newsletter, but I've never been able to get more than a couple weeks ahead of what's coming up to let the listener know and to let the person that I'm interviewing know. By the time I contact them and they get back to me, which sometimes could be several weeks and occasionally it's been several months, it takes a lot longer. The thing that takes the most time on any podcast is the amount of time it takes. It's always lovely to get answers right away, but it doesn't happen that often. Aleah: Which guests or interviews stand out as being particularly insightful and eye-opening for you? Sharon: I have to think about that. I partially answered that question. It was Jeff Russak at Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers who told me what I needed to know about selling jewelry online. Besides that, Robert Lee Morris was a very interesting episode. There are a lot of episodes where I was told the person didn't have a lot to say, so they said they would stay within the half hour or 20 minutes or whatever, and an hour in I'd have to stop them because they were still going, and I hadn't said anything. They were very interesting, nonetheless. Aleah: How do you go about finding and selecting the guests you feature on your show? Sharon: Sometimes they come directly to me, which in the beginning really surprised me. Now they regularly come to me. If I read a name in the jewelry trades or in the newspaper, I'll circle it and pursue them. It's as simple as that. I may not know anything about them except that they're in the jewelry business, and I'll work on finding out more about them. I would say those are the two main ways. I think it's two main ways, they come to me, or I go after them. Aleah: In your opinion, what are the most exciting or innovative areas of art and contemporary jewelry? Sharon: I've recently learned that the Art Deco period was followed on the heels of Retro jewelry, and I like both periods. I like some art jewelry, but not all. There was a time when I liked all art jewelry, but I found that I really don't. I'm very particular about art jewelry. Contemporary jewelry is contemporary jewelry. If it's not one of those categories, I think it's contemporary jewelry. Aleah: I think that answered part of my next question, because I was going to ask how has the podcast helped expand your knowledge and appreciation of jewelry? Obviously, there are so many things you learn by just talking to so many people. Sharon: There's a lot I've learned and a lot you do learn. There's so much to learn. Aleah: What advice would you give to someone looking to start their own specialty podcast? Sharon: This isn't the first specialty podcast I've been involved in, but on any specialty podcast, any podcast in general, you have to be prepared, and you have to know that it takes time. I would say the thing that takes the most time is finding people and following up with them, booking the interview or whatever it is. It takes a lot of time. People don't think about that, and they don't work that into their story. Aleah: What have been some of the most rewarding aspects of hosting a long-running jewelry podcast? Sharon: That it's been long running. Long running is very exciting and rewarding. When people come to me and say, “I would really like to be on the Jewelry Journey,” or “I found the Jewelry Journey online,” I'm excited and rewarded by that. Aleah: I always think it's fun when people recognize you, too. When we're out at shows, they're like, “Wait, you're Sharon. Don't you host that jewelry podcast?” And I'm always like, “Yes, she does.” Sharon: Yes, once in a while they recognize me. I don't show my face on anything, but somehow people have recognized me. You play a big part because you've taped some. We've done some live, and I hope to do more in the future. Aleah: Yeah, I think you're out there more than you think you are. Sharon: It's probably true. Other things I'm proud of are the three times I've been in the press. The first time was in the Financial Times. Then two or three weeks later, people called me and said, “I saw you in the New York Times.” I was very surprised because one thing led to another, as it usually does in public relations. It turned out I was in the Financial Times, and I was in the New York Times. In November of 2023, the New York Times had a section called "Jewelry Podcasts Pick Up Some Glitter,” and it mentioned me and other podcasts. I am so honored to be included among them. They list six, usually. The third time, the equivalent of GIA in the UK is called Gems&Jewellery, and I was in the autumn 2023 issue. It comes out four times a year, I think, or no more than six times a year. I was very impressed. They were doing a special on jewelry podcasts, and I was honored and excited to be included with them. I questioned, “Why are they asking me?” But they wrote their little blurb, and it was very nice. It was very exciting to have that memory, to cut it out, and to put it on my Instagram, which is @artsandjewelry, by the way. I would say those are the things that are exciting to me. Aleah: How do you maintain creativity and come up with new angles to explore in each episode? Sharon: Well, how do you maintain creativity is probably one of the key questions I have in my mind that I ask the jewelers. How does somebody who's been doing it for 20 years keep fresh and creative? I don't know, and I haven't found the formula for that. As I'm talking to somebody, a question usually comes up that I wouldn't have thought of beforehand, but as they're talking it prods something. Aleah: The best way is really to put yourself out there and listen to their story. You just hear it, and you want to know more. It's very organic for you. Sharon: Exactly, exactly. Organic is a very good word for it. Aleah: What role has social media played in growing and engaging your podcast audience? Sharon: Social media plays a key role. I don't know how I would distribute it or how people would find me if it weren't for social media. I have to remember that most of the people I talk with are on the younger side and they know social media, but a lot of people I talk to are exactly like me. “Can you tell me how to find the email again?” I have to remember that I play to both audiences. Aleah: Have you encountered any unique challenges in covering the jewelry industry, which is a very visual industry, through an audio format? Sharon: I haven't encountered any issues because this is a visual medium. What I've encountered is when a jeweler doesn't want to talk about their process. I've encountered that several times. It feels like they're giving away their secret sauce. They're afraid of it. Aleah: They're almost afraid to say too much. They think someone's going to replicate it. Sometimes when I'm listening, I'm like, “No, you have your own perspective. It's okay, tell us!” Sharon: That's true. If there's a unique challenge, that would be it, visual versus audio. I think the audio holds it up. I've broached that subject when I've asked people, “Do you think I should make the podcast visual also?” Usually I get a nay, that people like to listen to the podcast. They're like me. You listen to a podcast when you run or when you're doing something else. Aleah: You've expanded by adding photos on your website and adding photos on social media. Even though it's an audio-only format for your podcast, if you want to find more, it's always beautiful that you bring the photos to the website so that listeners can see more. Sharon: Aleah, you have said it better than I could have. Aleah: Which guests have provided you the most surprising or unexpected insights? Sharon: I don't know why, but there's a name that sticks in my mind a lot, probably because he's unique. I was thinking about it this morning. His name is Isaac Levy. It was Yvel jewelry, and Yvel is Levy backwards. I was surprised that he even said he would be on a podcast, because he really is an important guy. I remember him was saying, “Sure, why not?” and the way he said it was like, gosh, I wish everybody was that easy to ask if they can be on my podcast. He was such a nice guy but such an important guy, and he didn't start that way. His wife started it, and then he entered and worked with her. Aleah: I remember that too. She was the one who knew how to string pearls, and she taught him. They grew the brand together, the both of them. Looking back, is there anything you would have done differently in the early days of launching the podcast? Sharon: Now I'm a lot more comfortable. I do more prep than I used to, but I'm a lot more comfortable doing the podcast. When I listen and remember how it was in the beginning, I was very measured in the way I delivered. I read from a script. I don't have to do that anymore. I would just tell people to start by being themselves. Aleah: That's great advice. Do you have anything you'd like to ask of the jewelry world and of your listeners? Sharon: Of the jewelry world, I'd like to ask if they have something they'd particularly like to listen to or a subject they're interested in. I'd like them to let me know so I can look at how I can do that. Aleah: Is there anything I haven't asked that you've been thinking about, or that you want me to ask? Sharon: No, I think you've covered everything in a lot more depth than I expected it to be covered. Aleah: Thank you so much, Sharon. Sharon: Thank you, Aleah. Aleah: Before my dad, Jonathan, comes back to say a few final words, I wanted to take a moment to acknowledge that this is not the way we wanted to end this podcast, but since this was the end of Sharon's jewelry journey, and because she left an exquisite mark on the jewelry industry, we feel like this is the right way to leave a tribute to her. Her life was as beautiful as any piece of art or jewelry, and I'm going to continue to bring you stories, memories, photos and more from her jewelry journey. I would love to hear stories from you as well. In a moment, my father is going to tell you how you can share those. Before I finish, I just want to take a moment to thank Olivia Consol. She has also been an editor on this podcast since the beginning and has done tremendous work. Olivia, thank you so much. It's always a joy to work with you. Finally, thank you, Jewelry Journey listeners, friends and family. And now back to my dad, Jonathan. Jonathan: That was Sharon's jewelry journey, and I'm really glad that you listened all the way to the end of it. I hope that you gained a better insight into my bride of 32 years, who was on her jewelry journey even before I met her, and how much pleasure she got sharing the stories of up-and-coming makers, the interesting people she met along the way, the wonderful trips she took with the organizations she belonged to, and just how much this jewelry journey fed her inner being. We'll be linking to various articles about Sharon and items of interest that will help to round out her experience, her jewelry journey, the organizations that she enjoyed, some articles about Sharon's collecting, and things we think would be interesting to you, including photographs that show you a portion of her jewelry journey collection. I hope you find them interesting. I certainly have. I'd be very grateful if you would take a couple of minutes to leave your reviews of this podcast and your thoughts about Sharon, including anything you think would be interesting to share with us, her family, and with the larger community. I'll thank you for that in advance. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: Jennifer's unique process of layering acrylic and art images, and how she discovered her signature technique. Why the most important thing a young artist can do is find their voice. Why Jennifer rarely uses images her customers request in her jewelry. How Jennifer's work ties into the history of pop and op art. Why Jennifer sees other art jewelers as inspiration, not competition. About Jennifer Merchant: Jennifer Merchant is a studio t based in Minneapolis, MN. She graduated with a BFA in Metals and Jewelry from the Savannah College of Art and Design. She is a full-time artist showcasing her work in galleries, museums and exhibitions. Her work has been published in several national magazines such as American Craft, Ornament and Delta Sky Magazine. Merchant is best known for her innovative layered acrylic process in which images and prints are layered between solid acrylic. Her work is graphic with clean lines and modern aesthetic. Pieces confound viewers, appearing transparent from one angle of view while showcasing bold patterns and colors from another. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional resources: Website Facebook Instagram Twitter Transcript: Like the op and pop art that inspires it, Jennifer Merchant's jewelry challenges your eye. Clear from some angles and bold and colorful from others, the jewelry is created by layering acrylic with images from art books. Jennifer joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her technique; how she chooses the images in her jewelry; and why art jewelers need to work together to push the discipline forward. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Jennifer Merchant. Jennifer was also a guest several years ago. She thought she would be a metalsmith but segued to acrylic jewelry, which is what she has become known for: creative and innovative acrylic jewelry such as necklaces, bracelets, earrings and brooches. They have eye-catching graphics embedded in them. I was also surprised to learn that hand carving is sometimes involved. Welcome back. When you left college, did you know you were going to have your own business? Jennifer: Not right away. I think it took me about five years to really get the confidence together to start my own business. I definitely spent that first five years after graduation very lost and not really sure what in the heck I was going to do with my jewelry degree, especially because I went to school in Savannah, Georgia. That's where I made all my art connections and jewelry connections. Moving back to Minneapolis, I was off on my own. I didn't have a community at that point. It definitely was a number of years of wondering, “How am I going to end up using this degree that cost me so much money?” I had been waiting tables and was increasingly unhappy because I knew I had something different to offer the world. I ended up getting fired from a job. I had been speaking with a friend at work who had another friend that was putting on an art show. She had told me about it because she knew I was an artist. I remember getting fired from the job and calling her up right away, like, “I think I want to do that art show because I need to try to make some money.” It went okay, and it inspired me to say, “Jewelry is something you can do and make a living with. Let's give this a shot.” I had to move back home with my mom for a couple of years and cut my expenses way down, because I wasn't going to take out another loan to start a business. I built it very small, very scrappy. I had a second bedroom in my mom's house where I had my workshop, and I started from there doing little local events. That's where it all started. Sharon: Wow. What's the biggest piece of advice you can give to somebody who's just starting out? Jennifer: I would say when you're just starting out, really try to find your voice. Sharon: What do you do? What does one do when they find their voice? For instance, some people have found the voice, but they're homemakers or they work in an office. What do you do when you find your voice? Jennifer: I think once you know what you want to say, the next step is finding out who wants to hear it. And that is a very hard step, finding your niche and finding your people that resonate with your voice. I think the only way to really do that is to get yourself out there, get your work out there. I think with the Internet now and how accessible online stuff is, it might be a little easier to get yourself out there through social media, through the Internet, than maybe it was years ago when you had to have a physical presence out in the world. People can start by getting their work out there online and hopefully seeing who is interested, who connects with it, and then finding places in the real, outside world to continue that process and eventually find your market. Sharon: Do you have people who come to you with the image they want to include already? Jennifer: Not very often. I've had people ask me about that, but I think ultimately, I have to be drawn to the image specifically in order to be able to incorporate it in a piece. I did have a client that had a specific art piece she wanted in a bracelet for her daughter. That I was able to do because I resonated with the work and it was something that worked well within the form of jewelry. I've also had requests where someone wants family mementos or something encased in the acrylic. That's a very cool, sentimental thing, but visually, it doesn't really work with my aesthetic as well. I'm not going to do something just because I get asked for it. I also have to be drawn to it enough in order to go through with it, because it is a labor-intensive process and it is an art of passion. If I'm not super excited about the thing I'm making, it's probably not going to turn out that great either. I have tried to do things early on in my career specifically for a client that just didn't quite work out. We weren't on the same page. I think as you get more into it, you figure out the types of things you can push the boundaries on and the types of things that you can't. When someone's request is something that you can do and make them happy with, and when it's just not something that'll work out, you know. Sharon: That's interesting. So if somebody brought you their wedding photo, it depends on whether you like the wedding dress or something like that. Jennifer: Or if it has enough visual interest. I think the thing that makes my work successful is the images that I do use are interesting within a small scale of jewelry, and not all images can do that. I work with a lot of op art and pop art, and there's a lot of visual interest going on in a small space. With a photograph or something more sentimental, that's not always the case. It just wouldn't look as cool as they think it's going to. Sharon: I've seen comic books used in your work. How did you come to that? Jennifer: All of the things in my work that look like comic books are actually Roy Lichtenstein pieces. His pop art was inspired by comics, and he reimagined them into huge canvases and paintings. My jewelry does something similar, where I take Roy Lichtenstein's work and images and collect tons of books and rip out those pages and put that in my jewelry. It feels kind of meta. I've actually met some of his descendants and collectors and friends over the years, and a lot of them assure me that he would really appreciate what I'm doing with his work. It's a very similar idea as to how he repurposed art and things that he saw into something new and different. Sharon: That's interesting. I didn't know that. Did you study art history in college as you were studying jewelry and metal and all that? Jennifer: Yeah, art history is definitely part of your Bachelor of Fine Arts degree. It wasn't always my favorite class because the art history classes were about art that was ancient and a lot of religious art and that sort of thing. I think I had one class where it was modern art in the 20th century, which, of course, is the most interesting to me. But that art history background definitely sparked some interest in different art movements and art periods. Art Deco is a very favorite design motif of mine. As I was talking about earlier, I'm very inspired by pop art and op art. I think art history plays a huge role. I never thought at the time when I was in school that I would end up studying more about art history and specific artists and doing that kind of research, but it is really important to my work now. Sharon: Can you explain what the difference between pop art and op art is? Jennifer: Sure. With pop art, everyone knows Roy Lichtenstein and Warhol. They took popular things or everyday objects like a soup can and made them stylized and put them in the context of fine art as this kind of ridiculous thing. Op art deals with optical properties. A lot of op art is very linear. It kind of tricks your eye. It looks like it's moving, but it's a static image. Funny enough, when I started working with op art, I was actually collecting those optical illusions books for kids. There'd be very few usable images in there, but there'd be a few black and white, scintillating-looking, squiggly-lined spirals or something like that. That sparked my interest in optical art and looking it up outside of the context of those silly books for kids. I found out this is a whole art movement, and there are artists like Richard Anuszkiewicz and Victor Vasarely and Bridget Riley that pioneered this in the 60s, when it really became a thing. I just find it so fascinating. But it's kind of funny that my two art movements that I use a lot in my work are pop and op. Like, who knew? Sharon: Do you ever use any other kind besides those? You say you like Art Deco. I don't know what you'd use for an image, but I guess you could use an Art Deco image. Jennifer: I think with Art Deco I am more inspired by the overall forms of pieces or the shapes. I like the ideas. I like the repetitive nature of Art Deco. They went from Art Nouveau, where it was all crazy and ornate, and then Art Deco kind of simplified things. It was a little more streamlined. I really like that. I think I carry those design principles through my work, not as much the direct visuals. Although if I could find great books with Art Deco prints of patterns or wallpapers or whatever, I'd love to use those. I just haven't quite found the right image sources yet for that. Finding pop art and op art books has been pretty easy for me, and the images are just so striking, so that's why I've gravitated towards those. I'm open to other types of art and other artists. I just haven't moved on yet from the things I am working on. I can only focus on so many things at a time, but I could see myself doing some collections using Rothko paintings or Gerhard Richter with those interesting images, Jackson Pollock with the splashes. Those kinds of things I could see being very interesting within the context of layered acrylic. It just depends on where my book collection takes me. Sharon: So, if we're looking at used books at a used bookstore, we should keep our eyes open for interesting things that could be used as interesting prints. Jennifer: Yeah. I actually buy so many of my books online because physical shops only have so many things, and what I'm looking for is so specific. The art sections are usually kind of small, so I've ended up finding a lot of online retailers. I've gotten pretty good at being able to figure out whether a book is going to be visually interesting based on the online listing. I will even look at the size of the book, if they list dimensions, to give me ideas. If it seems like a good coffee table art book with lots of pictures, that's what I'm trying to find. Something with lots of great images. Sharon: It sounds like people would be very interested in your leftovers. Jennifer: I have a whole shelf of these books that are like little skeletons. You can see the sections where I've really gone to town ripping pages out, and then other sections that are left. There's plenty of things I leave in the book that I think are amazing, but they just aren't going to work for jewelry. Yeah, I've got a lot of skeleton books on my shelf. I keep them. I can't get rid of them. Sharon: I like that, skeleton books. Once again, it's a Herculean task, the whole thing of starting your own business. Would you say that there is somebody that inspired you and keeps inspiring you? Jennifer: I wouldn't say it's a specific person. I think after that initial, tiny show that I did trying to sell my work, I think the most inspiring thing was seeing the other artists and seeing people that were making a living doing their work. I think that's what's really inspiring to me, finally meeting other people that were already doing what I wanted to do and realizing, “Wow, this is a viable career path.” There's not a lot of artists in my family, so no one really had any advice to give me back in the day. They weren't necessarily unsupportive, but they didn't really know how to encourage my art, either. It's been very helpful getting out there and seeing people that are doing things and just being inspired. Different artists and different people inspire me for very different reasons. Some artists, their work is the thing that inspires you, and other artists have such a great work ethic or a really creative way of marketing. I try to keep my eyes and ears open all the time, and I let inspirations muddle around in my brain. And then one day some other thing will trigger an idea. You just never know. I try to always be open. Sharon: I'm surprised; I usually see you at shows where there are a lot of other art jewelers, which is what I categorize you as. I see art jewelers, makers a lot. I'm thinking of New York City Jewelry Week, which is where I saw you once or twice. The last time I saw you, I wasn't able to say hello. I would think you'd be more—well, maybe it's the way I am, but I'd be more envious or competitive seeing all the other art jewelers, as opposed to finding inspiration. Jennifer: I don't know. I don't think of it as a competition in any way. I think it helps me a lot because my work is so different from everyone else's, so there isn't a super direct comparison. I think maybe for some other types of jewelers it might be a little different because there is more of a direct comparison with their aesthetic or their materials. In that respect, there isn't really competition. I used to be a lot more of a competitive person, but as I've gotten older and been in the business long enough and met all different artists, you just see that it's so much more about passion and drive. You can be successful doing just about anything if you're willing to put the work in. I've met so many different people with so many different types of jewelry and art, and they're successful in radically different ways. Even if some other artist is successful in a way that will never work for me, I still love learning about what they're doing. Even if it doesn't directly apply to me, there's something in that lesson, in listening to them and their story that might click something for me in an indirect manner. So, I really do try to be open and inspired by everyone, and I definitely don't see it as competition. I think it's great seeing more and more art jewelers getting work out there, making things that are big and bold and wild and weird materials. The more of it that's out there, the better for all of us, because then the consumer or the client is seeing more of it out in the world. Then when they come across my work, it might not seem as weird or as off putting. They might get it a little bit faster and a little bit easier because of all the other people that came before me and all the people that are alongside me. I think working together as a community, being inspired by each other, helping each other be successful, that can only help all of us. Sharon: Do you think when people first see your art, they don't think of it as jewelry because it doesn't have diamonds or emeralds? Do they think of it as a throw away, in a way? Jennifer: Oh, yeah. I've had the gamut of reactions to my work, and it really depends on the setting it's in as well as how people respond to it. There are definitely people out there that, to them, jewelry is diamonds and gold, and that's fine. I might not be able to change their mind. Other people see the work and, right away, think it looks cool. Maybe they didn't even know it was a bracelet, but they were drawn to it. Then when they find out it's an actual wearable piece, they're even more blown away. You never know what kind of reaction you're going to get from people. I've definitely had to do a lot of educating on my process and the materials because when someone sees a plastic necklace that costs $2,000, they kind of scratch their heads, like, “What is going on here?” And then I tell them all about the process and all the different steps and all the different things that went into it. Sometimes you win people over, and sometimes they're like, “Why bother?” I just try to pay more attention to the people that are won over and interested. If they're not, that's fine. I know my work is not for everyone, and I'm okay with that. Sharon: That's an interesting philosophy. You've given me a different perspective as well on your jewelry. Thank you for being here today, Jennifer. Jennifer: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: Jennifer's unique process of layering acrylic and art images, and how she discovered her signature technique. Why the most important thing a young artist can do is find their voice. Why Jennifer rarely uses images her customers request in her jewelry. How Jennifer's work ties into the history of pop and op art. Why Jennifer sees other art jewelers as inspiration, not competition. About Jennifer Merchant: Jennifer Merchant is a studio t based in Minneapolis, MN. She graduated with a BFA in Metals and Jewelry from the Savannah College of Art and Design. She is a full-time artist showcasing her work in galleries, museums and exhibitions. Her work has been published in several national magazines such as American Craft, Ornament and Delta Sky Magazine. Merchant is best known for her innovative layered acrylic process in which images and prints are layered between solid acrylic. Her work is graphic with clean lines and modern aesthetic. Pieces confound viewers, appearing transparent from one angle of view while showcasing bold patterns and colors from another. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional resources: Website Facebook Instagram Twitter Transcript: Like the op and pop art that inspires it, Jennifer Merchant's jewelry challenges your eye. Clear from some angles and bold and colorful from others, the jewelry is created by layering acrylic with images from art books. Jennifer joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her technique; how she chooses the images in her jewelry; and why art jewelers need to work together to push the discipline forward. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, my guest is Jennifer Merchant. Jennifer was also a guest several years ago. She thought she would be a metalsmith but segued to acrylic jewelry, which is what she has become known for: creative and innovative acrylic jewelry such as necklaces, bracelets, earrings and brooches. They have eye-catching graphics embedded in them. I was also surprised to learn that hand carving is sometimes involved. Jennifer exhibits all over the country. She's been an active member of SNAG, the Society of North American Goldsmiths. She is also a member of other major jewelry organizations. Jennifer is going to tell us all about why she has chosen this route and her process in general. Jennifer, welcome to the program. Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me, Sharon. Sharon: I'm glad to have you. Why did you start working with acrylics? Jennifer: I actually started working with acrylic while I was still in college at the Savannah College of Art and Design studying metalsmithing and jewelry. Our professor gave us little chunks of acrylic one day, probably with the thought of using it for die forms. But I decided, “Hey, you can cut and sculpt this very similarly to working with waxes for lost wax casting.” I liked the immediacy of the acrylic, that once you carved it and sculpted it and polished it, it was a finished piece. It had a lot of really cool optical properties. So, I always kept it on the back burner as an interesting material. Then when I graduated from college and I moved back to my hometown of Minneapolis, I didn't have the tools and equipment to keep working with metal. So, I kind of fell into, “Hey, there was that acrylic I worked with a couple of times in school. It was very interesting. Let's see what we can do with that,” because it was cheap, and I could cut it with simple tools. I started experimenting with it from there. Sharon: And you make all sorts of jewelry with it. Do you know when you start out that you'll be making a necklace or a bracelet with the pieces you have, or do they talk to you as you put them together? Jennifer: I make pieces both ways. Sometimes I'll design a piece very specifically and have an idea and a picture in my mind of what I'm making. But then there's other times, especially when I'm working with the scraps that are left over from pieces that I've made in the past. A lot of those scraps are still very interesting, and they'll be in weird shapes. Those will speak to me, and I'll create something new and different with some of those. I kind of work both ways. Sharon: I know you're in a lot of stores and galleries. Do stores tell you what to do, or do you just say, “Here it is, do you like it”? Jennifer: I'm more of a, “Here's what I've been making. Let me know which ones you like.” I think sometimes it's important to follow your own inspirations. People tend to be drawn to the things that I'm most excited to make. That being said, some galleries have different clientele bases with different price points, so they'll tell me, “Hey, these pieces were working really well.” I'll take some feedback. But ultimately, I focus on making the things that I'm drawn to. Sharon: Do you have a studio inside your home or do you have a place that you go? Jennifer: For years I did have a studio outside of my home that I really loved, but a few years ago my husband and I bought a home, and I decided to move my jewelry practice into my home. So, now I work from home. But who knows, maybe in the future I'll expand a little bit and have another space in addition outside the home. It can be kind of a challenge working at home sometimes, but I've done both. I like working both ways, so we'll see what the future has for me. Sharon: Do you have assistants who work with you? Jennifer: I've had assistants in the past. I don't anymore. I scaled my business way back during COVID and took a breather to reevaluate what I'm doing and where my motivations are. I'm only just beginning to build it back. At this point, I don't work with anyone, but hopefully in the future I can find someone to help out with some of the production. It's a little challenging to find an assistant because my process is very unique. It's not something that people know how to do, so there's a lot of training involved. When I do work with people, it takes quite a while to get somebody that can help finish pieces to the quality standards that my galleries and clients expect. Sharon: When you were reevaluating things, what did you decide? Did your method change during COVID? Jennifer: I think things just slowed way down during COVID. 2020, honestly, it was going to be my year. I had a couple of really big events planned, one of which I got to do because it was in February, but the rest all moved online. There was such a lull in events and things to participate in. I had started questioning what my motivations are, because you really have to love what you're doing in order to be an artist as a profession. We had bought a house and were settling in. I've just been taking the last few years to figure out life so I can bring my A-game to my business again. Sharon: Did you stop production because you were doing it yourself during COVID? Jennifer: I did slow way down on production. If I had a client that was interested in something, or if I had an online event or that kind of thing, that would motivate me to produce some new pieces. But there were just fewer things going on to spark that creation. I have a harder time making things just because. I like to have an outside influence, like a show that's coming up or events that are going to happen and people are going to see my pieces. When I don't know when those things are going on, I have a little bit of a harder time. I think that is why during COVID, everything slowed down for me especially. But it also gave me a lot of time to think about what I want out of my business and where I want to go. And in May, I'll be launching my first web shop where you can actually buy my pieces directly from me. Sharon: Wow. I know that's a Herculean task. Jennifer: For me personally, the web shop is an extra big step because all of my pieces, even my production work, is one of a kind because of the images I'm using within my jewelry. They're all found images from art books and other sources. So, even if it's the same shape, like the marquee hoop earring, no two are going to be the exact same. So, every time I list a piece online for sale, I have to photograph each and every single one of them. It's taken a long time to get some of those things down where I could do it quickly enough and efficiently enough to be able to post all of these pieces with the right listings. It's a lot more work than having a design where you can put a picture of it and sell 25 of them. It's been a daunting thing to tackle. Sharon: Did you have to wait until you were efficient at photographing and making them so you could just churn them out? Jennifer: My work is very difficult to photograph because it is clear and transparent from some angles, and then it's bright and colorful from others. It's also very reflective. So, trying to photograph it cleanly and communicate the piece in a single image is very difficult. My work tends to resonate more from multiple angles. It has taken years to figure out the best way to represent these pieces in an image or two. Sharon: The online shop, do you think it's your most valuable social media outlet? Is there one? What do you think that is? Jennifer: For me, I'm not huge on social media. Instagram, I think, is the most fun. It's very image forward, which is something I really enjoy. Definitely, as I launch my website, I will be on social media a lot more to market. I think up until now I've mostly worked with galleries and shops or done specific events, so I haven't cultivated my online audience as much. I'm excited to explore that new chapter and get more into it and see what I can do from my home. That way in the future, when something happens where in-person events may not be happening as much, I can still have a connection to my audience. I've been getting asked for years, “Where can I find your pieces?” Because everything is one of a kind, if it's at a gallery in California, someone in Georgia is going to have a hard time getting their hands on it. I think it'll be really nice having my own shop so that people can have one destination to go, as well as all of the others, to be able to have that access. Sharon: How did you start getting galleries and stores interested in you? Jennifer: I have been contacted by most of the places that I work with. Earlier in my career, I did a lot more events and shows and I was able to meet gallery owners. Also, early on in my career, I met some of the people that work for the American Craft Council, which is based in Minneapolis. When they saw a local Minneapolis artist at a show in Chicago and met me and thought my work was cool, they were like, “You're in our city. Let's invite her to some events.” They really took me under their wing and wrote about my work and got me out there. I got a lot of contacts just from people seeing the articles that they had posted. For me, it's been a lot of just doing what I do, and because my work is so unique and different, people that it resonates with will remember and contact me, like, “Hey, we've never seen anything like this. Let's try it out at our gallery.” I've been very fortunate in that way, where I haven't really had to go out on my own, cold calling and trying to get appointments and that sort of thing. I just try to make really interesting work, get it out there as much as I can, and then hope that it snowballs from there. So far, that's been working for me. Sharon: Wow. I think it's great that you didn't have to cold call and that people were interested in your stuff, which is very unusual. I don't know anybody who does anything like that. So, you're very lucky. Jennifer: I'm very lucky that it worked out for me because I can be a little socially awkward with the cold calling and things like that. That was never my favorite part of the business. I am fortunate that my work speaks for itself. It's kind of a love it or hate it thing, which can be its own challenge, but it's definitely unique enough where when people see it, if they're interested, they will hunt me down and ask me about it. That's been very nice. Sharon: If an outlet wants more than one, maybe they want five bracelets, do you tell them right away that you can make the five bracelets, but they'll all have different graphics? Jennifer: Yeah. I did a couple wholesale shows a while ago where it was that challenge of, “Well, here's a design, but they're all going to be different, and you're not really going to know until you get them.” I think most people that are interested in my work like that one-of-a-kind nature of it. That's part of the interest, so they trust me. If they get pieces that maybe that imagery doesn't speak to them or their clientele, we'll talk about it and I can swap it out, get them some prints and patterns that they like better. It's kind of a back-and-forth process. And the longer I work with a gallery or a person, the more I get to know what works there. Then I can tailor my offerings to them for what works. Sharon: Where do you find your images and the pictures that you put in your jewelry? Jennifer: When I first started, I was using magazines because they were readily available, fairly inexpensive, and that's how I started this whole process of layered acrylic. But the paper in those is not very good quality and the pictures fade. It's also a challenge to find enough usable content. So, then I started purchasing art books. I would become interested in a specific artist and start collecting books about their work, and those books always had a lot of really amazing images. They're printed on really nice paper with good quality inks, and they're much more successful layering than magazines. Now I exclusively use books. I've become somewhat of a rare and vintage book collector. It's a really fun part of my job, hunting down these different books, figuring out artists that inspire me to start collecting things about their work and then finding really cool images. If there's a particular book that has a lot of really great images that I like, I will start looking for other copies of it. There are certain books about Roy Lichtenstein's work. There's one about posters that has a catalog in the back with all these smaller thumbnail images, and they're so great for making earrings, things like that. I must've bought that book like 10 times. So, that's where I get my images. It's all purchased materials like books that I then rip up and cut up and put in between the acrylic. Sharon: Well, you answered the question. I was going to ask you if you cut the books up or what you do. You also mentioned that magazines got you going with layered acrylic. Can you tell us about that? Jennifer: When I was younger, I subscribed to all kinds of fashion magazines and fun things, and I would keep them after reading them. I had shelves and shelves of magazines. When I first started working with acrylic, I had this idea that acrylic has pretty cool visual properties, optical properties, and when you put images underneath it, it looks so interesting. That's when I started going through my fashion magazines, lots of issues of Vogue. I would see cool prints on dresses and things like that, and I would rip those pages out and try to fit the prints and things that were in there within my jewelry designs. That's how I got started with the whole thing. It was just cheap materials I already had. Sharon: What are your sales policies? Do you accept returns? If I'm a client and you give me something and I say, “No, that's not what I want,” do you accept returns? What do you do? Jennifer: Yeah, I do accept returns. I think it depends. If it's a piece that already existed and they buy it and it just didn't work out, or it doesn't fit quite right or it wasn't what they were expecting, absolutely. It becomes a little more of a gray area when it's a custom piece, when someone wants specific imagery and this and that. That tends to be a little more delicate. That being said, I want people to keep my jewelry because they love it, not because they're trapped. So, even a custom order, if it doesn't come out quite as they were expecting, I try to work with people to either make it right or try something new. Some of the events that I do, it's a museum show where they're handling the sales and they're getting a commission, I'm getting a commission from the sale. Even though I'm selling to the customer directly, because it goes through the museum, usually it's an all-sales-are-final type situation, just because of the nature of the commissions and if they've already paid me and then the person changes their mind. It depends on the venue through which I'm selling the work. I would say most times, yes, returns are acceptable within a certain time frame, but there are certain instances where they are final sale. But even in that situation—I had a client come a couple of years later to a show, and she had this ring. I decided, “You know what? It's a really cool ring. Let's swap it out.” She wanted a pendant. I like to be a little flexible. Like I said, I want people to have my jewelry because they love it, not because they're forced to keep it. Sharon: I'm curious; in your studio, do you have pets that keep you company? Jennifer: I do. I've got a dog and a cat. My cat, Shackleton, likes to work with me. I have two workspaces in my home. Downstairs is the shop, the studio, and then upstairs I have an office where I do the bonding and the image gathering and looking through layouts. The cat, Shackleton, likes to hang out upstairs in the office and sit on all my papers and be in the way, but be very cute. Then my dog, her name's Sophia. She tends to stay out of the studio because it's loud and dusty. She'll come in the office and hang out, too, sometimes. But I don't know. She kind of does her own thing. She lets me work. Sharon: Well, it sounds like nice company. Do you make more than one piece at a time? All the pieces and extras, let's say, do you put them in a closet and then pull them out if somebody wants them? What do you do? Jennifer: I definitely always have some inventory on hand. I think as far as when I'm making pieces, as I was saying earlier, I tend to make when I have an event or I'm preparing for something coming up. Then I'll usually go above and beyond and make extra just to have. Also, because my pieces are one of a kind and the imagery is different on each earring, each ring, each bracelet, I will make more than I know I'm going to need or sell at a specific time, mostly to have options for my clients, because all the pieces are different and have different images. You never know what someone's going to be drawn to. It's especially difficult with things that have a size, like a ring or a bracelet. Then I make tons of them because you have to have lots of options. With those kinds of things, I'll take a lot more custom orders because someone will see something in person that they love, but it's not their size. I do my best to recreate things for people. I don't generally remake things with the exact same images because usually it's impossible, but I will do my best to get something with a similar aesthetic or feeling for people. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Gabriela produces jewelry in Mexico, manages her business from Montreal, and sells her jewelry worldwide. Gabriela's favorite stone to work with, and how she chooses and sources gems for her colorful jewelry. How moving from Mexico to Canada (and experiencing seasons for the first time) influenced Gabriela's work. What it means for jewelry to be slow made. Why COVID prompted Gabriela to transition from packaging design to jewelry design, and how she overcame her hesitation to call herself a jewelry maker. About Gabriela Sierra Gaby, designer and creator of Gabriela Sierra jewelry, is anything but a minimalist. Unafraid of color, she plays with bold shapes, textures and asymmetry. Her meticulously crafted pieces are meant to be conversation starters. With a background in Industrial Design followed by a variety of courses at Alchimia Contemporary Jewellery School, Gabriela Sierra merges design and fashion to create unique sculptural jewelry. The brand seeks to reflect the spirit of the slowmade process (quality over quantity). Founded in 2021, Gabriela Sierra is committed to good design by focusing on quality materials and the revaluation of craftsmanship. Her work has been shown at different worldwide exhibitions: "Todo es Diseño" Queretaro, Mexico 2021 "The Fab" Milano Jewelry Week 2022 "Cluster Contemporary Jewelry", London 2022 "The Earring Show", Vancouver, Canada 2023 "Earrings Galore 2023 - 2024", United States   Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Expertly combining bold colors and shapes in her jewelry, it's clear that Gabriela Sierra has an eye for design. Beginning her career in furniture and packaging design, Gabriela made her lifelong dream of becoming a jewelry maker come true in 2021, when she opened Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her upbringing in Mexico and her current home in Montreal influence her work; why her business follows “slow made” principles; and how she became more confident about calling herself a jewelry designer. Read the episode transcript here.   Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, I'm talking with Gabriela Sierra of Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. Welcome back. So, everything might not be handcrafted, but you have chosen those individual stones to go together or the kind of stone to work with. For instance, will you choose a faceted stone to work with? Could you have a combination of a faceted stone with a cabochon with a smooth curve? Gabriela: Yes. I already have some designs before combining these different types of cuts. Yes, for sure. I'm not like, “I'm just going to work with cabochon and that's it.” No. I think t I'm open to work with different kinds of cuts. I like to work with cuts that are not the traditional ones. I just create new cuts and new cuts, and then as I mentioned, I make an order with my suppliers to have a sample to see if it really works, because in my mind everything works perfectly. I need to see the real thing physically, here with me in my hands, to see if everything is okay. Sharon: Do you go to the Tucson Show in Arizona to choose stones? Gabriela: No, I haven't had a chance to go. I see the videos and I see that all the jewelers I follow go there. I do wish to go there, but I just recently received my American visa. That was one of the reasons why I didn't go to the Tucson Show. But I would love to have the opportunity to go. Maybe next year. For sure, I want to go. Next year it's easier. Here in Montreal there's also a gem show, a smaller version. It was last year. I think it's here every year. I went there last year, and it was very good. Of course, to a new person it's just huge. There are a lot of suppliers from everywhere, from every part of the world, so I really wanted to go. Sharon: How do you decide if it's a good quality stone versus one that's not as good? Is it just by eye, or do you look through a loupe? Gabriela: I don't have a lot of knowledge. I'm not trained to really recognize if a stone is a very good quality stone. I think I just need to love the stone and see that it's without any breakage, it's not with a hole or some kind of damage. I need to love the stone, and it needs to be a good cut in my opinion. I'm not an expert gemologist, so I cannot tell if it's perfectly cut. I just need to see the stone and if it's love at first sight. If I love the stone, it's perfect. Sharon: Does it have to fit a certain bezel or do you make the bezel to fit the stone? Most of your gems seem to be bezel set. Gabriela: At the beginning, when I first chose the stones and then designed, yes, I based my design on the gemstone. I created the bezel around it. But after that, when I had a clear concept, I designed first and then chose the stone. When I order the stones, they need to be the size that I need because I cannot change the design. But yes, basically all my gemstones are with a bezel. Sharon: Do you have a studio outside your home, or a place inside your apartment or home where you design your jewelry? Gabriela: In Mexico, my studio is in my house in Querétaro. Querétaro is the city where I live. It's in my house. The first floor is all my studio. Now Samantha is working there. But now here in Montréal, last year, last October, I found a place that rents a space for jewelers. I'm a resident there and I work from there. I have all the necessary things because it's an atelier. The atelier is called Artéfact. A lot of jewelers from Montreal rent their space and work there to create their pieces. Sharon: Can you go any time, or do you have to sign up for certain times? Gabriela: No, because I'm a resident, I can go if I want to go. During the night I can go. Any time I want. They give classes there also, but it doesn't matter if they are giving classes. I can go whenever I want. In Montreal it's a little bit different. It's difficult to have a studio in your house or apartment. You need a permit because you're working with gas, with fire, with chemicals. It's different. In Mexico we don't need permits to have a gas tank in our house. Here it's a little bit different. Sharon: Do you ever get nervous working with fire and chemicals? Does that make you nervous? Gabriela: At the beginning, yes. Yes, of course. Because you're working with gas, if you're not careful enough, there could be an accident. Also, because my studio is in my house, I was worried at the beginning that I needed to be very careful because this is my house. My husband lives here. My stuff is here. So, yeah, I need to be careful. I was nervous at the beginning because I was working with fire. But you just need to follow the steps. That's it. If you work carefully and follow the precautions, you are good. Sharon: And you have a pet. Do they keep you company in the studio? Where do they keep you company? Gabriela: Yes, I have a dog. Her name is Jude Right now, she is in Mexico, but I will bring her here very soon because I miss her so much. She was the one reminding me every day, “Hey, Gabi, it's time to go home. I'm hungry. Let's go home.” Home for her was the second floor of our house. I miss her so much. It's more than love for me and for my husband. Sharon: Does she comfort you? If you're having a bad day with the stones, do you get comfort from her? Gabriela: Yes. I don't know what dogs have, but they know if you are feeling bad or you are sad or you are happy. They just know. She approaches every time I feel bad or sad, or I break a bezel or I break a gemstone. She knows. Also because I scream a lot and I'm saying bad words. Sharon: I want to talk to you a little bit about starting the business, deciding to start the business and keeping it going. You're newer in your making journey than some of the people I've talked to on the podcast. What made you decide that it was time to leave? Gabriela: Well, COVID hit, and I think for many people, it was a time to reflect, and I reflected and reevaluated my path. That was the moment that I decided to quit my job as a packaging specialist. It was hard. A lot of people called me crazy because it was a very difficult time, but I was so sure. I don't know what COVID had at that particular time but it gave me a signal or something that I wasn't in the right place. That particular time was hard, but it gave me the strength to start my jewelry business and start to set up my studio. During COVID, I took some classes to refresh the techniques that I had learned years before at Alchimia to start making jewelry. I learned a lot of techniques, but the years passed, and I needed a refresh. But it was hard. I'm not going to lie; it was really hard. Because I was new, I was scared. I was afraid of failure. In my mind, I was thinking, “Who is going to buy my jewelry? Who is going to like my jewelry? How will I pay all my bills.?” All those questions started to appear in my mind. You asked me a question about how I introduce myself, and I told you that I felt comfortable to say I was a jewelry maker a year ago. I had a lot of insecurity. I wasn't sure that I was a jewelry maker because I wasn't prepared in a jewelry school. I didn't have the proper school, I didn't have a proper education for being a jeweler. It was tough at the beginning, but then my work started to get noticed, to get exposed, and I had the opportunity to be in different exhibitions. I think the trust grew from there, and I feel more and more comfortable calling myself a jewelry maker now. Sharon: What is your distribution? How do people hear about you? Do people place orders at shows, or do you exhibit all over the world? Gabriela: Mainly my clients buy the pieces from my webpage. I also have my pieces in some stores in Mexico City. Right now, I have some of my pieces in Vancouver in a gallery. For exhibitions, they could have been bought during the exhibitions, but the exhibition is just for a couple of days, and those exhibitions were one or two years ago. The other one was two years ago. The last one is actually right now. It's Earrings Galore. The last place this exhibition was in was Mexico City, actually. Before that, Earrings Galore was in New York City at New York City Jewelry Week. Sharon: You exhibited there. Do you have to go into galleries? Are you a salesperson? Are you the salesperson, or do you put the jewelry out and people can decide what they're doing? Gabriela: Well, I'm the one who gets all the customers' messages and everything, but in the exhibitions, I cannot go to every single one of them, so I just send the pieces and there's a person there in charge of showing the pieces and selling the pieces. Sharon: Do you ever have to go to galleries and sell your stuff? You mentioned these stores in Mexico City that have your things. Did you have to show it yourself? Did they see your pieces and like them beforehand without knowing you? How did it work? Gabriela: For example, that one in Mexico City, I couldn't be there because I was here in Montreal. So, they could go to the exhibition and see my pieces there and try them on, see if they like them or not, but I couldn't be there. I wish I could have, but I couldn't. I want to go and attend different expositions or craft fairs. I want to start doing those, probably next year or at the end of this year. Sharon: Who buys your jewelry? Who buys your earrings? Do men buy them for women? Do women buy them for themselves? Gabriela: My main customers are from the U.S., actually. And most of my customers, the majority are women. A few of them are men. Actually, they are the ones who message me first through my Instagram account and ask me, “My wife really likes these earrings. She's showing me these earrings, but I don't know if she is going to wear them. Can you tell me if they are too big or too heavy? Can you show me pictures or a video wearing them?” Sometimes I can do that because if you message me through my Instagram account, I'm the one who answers every single message. Maybe I can take a little bit long to answer back, but for sure you will get an answer. Sharon: You mentioned COVID. Did that affect taking classes? Were you doing it through Zoom? Did it affect your business? How did you do it? Gabriela: During COVID, yeah. Mexico had a lot of restrictions, but during COVID, I went to my friend's studio. She is an amazing jeweler also. She was giving classes to a small group of people. We were three people per class, with distance between each other. So, yes, we had the classes in person. I basically didn't sell during the first year of COVID because in that year I was still working in packaging. The second year of COVID, I was almost ready. My studio was almost ready. I just started to show my work on my Instagram account, but I had just 20 followers or something. It was just the beginning. I really can't tell you if COVID affected me as a brand because I was just beginning. Sharon: What kind of brand were you after? Give us some buzzwords about your brand. Are you high end? Are you for everyone? Tell us a little bit about your jewelry. Gabriela: Yes, of course. As I mentioned, I really like bold colors and shapes. I love to work with asymmetry and statement pieces. I love when my clients tell me that someone stopped and asked her, “I love your earrings! Where did you buy them?” I love them to be conversation starters. The main focus or the reason that I wake up every morning to make these pieces is to make people smile just looking at my pieces. I love to play with color. Bold colors, bold shapes, big earrings. Sharon: You consider your jewelry a conversation starter. Is the way that people hear about your earrings, let's say, by word of mouth? Tell us a little bit about that. Gabriela: At the beginning when I started, my first customers were people from my city in Querétaro because I started to pay for some announcements, just in my city or in Mexico City. I started first with friends and family, as a normal startup or business that just starts. Then the word spread a little bit. Then it was like, “My friend Blanca told me about you and I love her earrings. Can you show me your earrings?” At that particular time, I didn't have a web page. I just had my Instagram account. So, with WhatsApp, I would send them some pictures of the pieces that I had at that particular moment, some videos of me wearing them. Also, if they wanted, because it was COVID still, I'd invite them to my studio to see the earrings in person. Right now, because my journey started on Instagram, boutiques got in touch with me to ask for my pieces. Then the clients grew because I had pieces in Mexico City or in Guadalajara. Then I started to learn about a little bit of marketing, making advertisements on Instagram or Facebook to show my pieces to markets out there in the United States and Europe and Japan. It was amazing for me to see how Instagram helped me grow my business, to show my pieces in Japan or New Zealand or Europe. For me, it was amazing because I didn't think my pieces would go there and people from there were going to like my pieces. Sharon: I could see how that would be exciting. Well, we wish you the best and that your business keeps going. Thank you very much. Gabriela: Thank you so much, Sharon. Thank you so much for this opportunity and for your invitation. I really appreciate it. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Gabriela produces jewelry in Mexico, manages her business from Montreal, and sells her jewelry worldwide. Gabriela's favorite stone to work with, and how she chooses and sources gems for her colorful jewelry. How moving from Mexico to Canada (and experiencing seasons for the first time) influenced Gabriela's work. What it means for jewelry to be slow made. Why COVID prompted Gabriela to transition from packaging design to jewelry design, and how she overcame her hesitation to call herself a jewelry maker. About Gabriela Sierra Gaby, designer and creator of Gabriela Sierra jewelry, is anything but a minimalist. Unafraid of color, she plays with bold shapes, textures and asymmetry. Her meticulously crafted pieces are meant to be conversation starters. With a background in Industrial Design followed by a variety of courses at Alchimia Contemporary Jewellery School, Gabriela Sierra merges design and fashion to create unique sculptural jewelry. The brand seeks to reflect the spirit of the slowmade process (quality over quantity). Founded in 2021, Gabriela Sierra is committed to good design by focusing on quality materials and the revaluation of craftsmanship. Her work has been shown at different worldwide exhibitions: "Todo es Diseño" Queretaro, Mexico 2021 "The Fab" Milano Jewelry Week 2022 "Cluster Contemporary Jewelry", London 2022 "The Earring Show", Vancouver, Canada 2023 "Earrings Galore 2023 - 2024", United States   Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Expertly combining bold colors and shapes in her jewelry, it's clear that Gabriela Sierra has an eye for design. Beginning her career in furniture and packaging design, Gabriela made her lifelong dream of becoming a jewelry maker come true in 2021, when she opened Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her upbringing in Mexico and her current home in Montreal influence her work; why her business follows “slow made” principles; and how she became more confident about calling herself a jewelry designer. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, I'm talking with Gabriela Sierra of Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. Her Mexican heritage shines through because of the bold colors in her jewelry. You will immediately see that when you look at her jewelry. I'm talking to her today, and she's in Canada, where she travels. She specializes in earrings. She uses recycled silver, and the stones she uses come from small, independent mines or mines that are located in Mexico. She believes in slow made. Her jewelry is meticulously crafted, and she does not have any inventory on hand. Almost everything is made to order at somebody's request. Today, Gabriela will tell us about her business and how it works. Gabriela, welcome to the program. Gabriela: I'm so excited to be here, Sharon. Thank you so much for inviting me. Sharon: Can you tell us how you decided on jewelry as a profession? Gabriela: Yes, sure. Well, I have always been drawn to jewelry since I was a kid. I was influenced by my mom and my grandmother. I remember her presence was always announced by the clicking of her bangles and her bold earrings. I studied industrial design, and during university I took a jewelry class. That experience started everything, just initiated my passion. Basically, it started from that. I knew at that particular moment that I needed to find further training, so after I finished university, I took a four-month course at Alchimia Contemporary Jewelry School. I had an amazing time there, and also the teachers were absolutely wonderful. However, it took me some time to find the courage to start my own brand, which I did eventually, after eight years. Now I'm here. Sharon: So, you studied industrial design before? Gabriela: Yeah. Sharon: Your passion for jewelry must have been underlying, and the industrial design really brought it out. So, after eight years, you decided to start your own brand. During most of that time, were you making different kinds of jewelry? Gabriela: No, actually, when I came back to Mexico after taking the course at Alchimia, I was so afraid of failure. That's why I didn't start my own brand at that particular time. In my mind, it was better to find a normal job. So, during those eight years, I worked as a designer for furniture. I also specialized as a packaging engineer or packaging specialist. Basically, I wasn't working in jewelry those eight years. Sharon: But you were working in design, right? Gabriela: Yeah. Sharon: Did your background help you in all of this? Does industrial design help? Gabriela: Yes, of course. I think yeah, absolutely. Since the first job that I had, designing furniture, I actually like all the stripped elements. I take a lot of influence and ideas from what I see outside. You can actually see a few of my designs being an idea of a light bulb, for example. I think it helped a lot. Also talking about packaging, especially the job that I had, it helped me a lot to understand a little bit of marketing and, of course, packaging. It gave me a big picture to understand a little bit more, not just the design part, but everything else, all the different areas involving the launch of a product. Sharon: I'm sure you do a whole range of jewelry, but right now you seem to focus more on earrings. Is that true? And, if so, why? Gabriela: Right now, yes, my main focus is on earrings. A month ago I started creating rings, a series of rings. But yes, I love earrings and my main focus is earrings. Why? The earrings are easier—not to create, but rings need to be sized. For me and in my experience, it's easier to make earrings for everyone. Rings need to be sized, so it's not for everyone. Sharon: Do you think you'll stick with earrings? Do you think you'll branch out from earrings to other things or stick with earrings? Gabriela: No, I think I will start creating other things later on. Right now, I will create the series of rings. After that, I will probably start with some necklaces. But for sure, I will start doing things differently. I'm from Mexico, but right now, I've been living in Montreal since last August. I came from another country and I'm learning about the culture here. Also, because I'm an atelier, I'm opening a new studio here in Montreal. I'm getting to know new artists and learning about them and their techniques. I think that travel helps a lot to create new things, just absorbing everything. So, I'm sure I'm going to create different things in the future, not just the earrings. Sharon: Do you have ideas that you think about when you travel or see when you're in Montreal? Does it give you ideas for different kinds of jewelry? Gabriela: Yes, actually, my rings. I have made just three of them. I want to make 10. The concept behind the rings is winter. This is the first winter that I spent here in Montreal. What's beautiful is that it was the first time I saw snow. For me, it was beautiful. It was a big change. And it wasn't just beautiful, it was also very hard. I wanted to encapsulate this snow in these rings. They are quartz. They're carbon quartz, but the inside is similar to snow. What I wanted to create there was the idea of encapsulating snow, encapsulating that particular moment that I saw the snow on the street. They are big, they are bold. Yeah, they're big. Sharon: Do you like the snow? Can you find it in Mexico, like in the mountains or somewhere? Gabriela: Yes, you can find snow in Mexico, probably in the mountains or in the north of Mexico, like very close to the United States. But it's not like here. The winter in Montreal is very tough. I think once we were -16 Celsius, so it's very hard. Sharon: Why do you manufacture in Mexico? I assume it's less expensive to manufacture there. Gabriela: Well, my studio remains in Querétaro. My partner, Samantha, is in charge of making the pieces that can be replicated there. I'm the one in charge of overseas, making sure everything runs smoothly in Querétaro. Here, I work and make the one-of-a-kind pieces. Basically, most of the pieces are shipped from Querétaro. The silver is from Mexico. Most of the stones are from Mexico also. The pieces that I make here, most of the stones are from here or the United States. These particular pieces are shipped from here because I made them here. Sharon: How do you decide which stones in which colors? You seem to flip, using the same color but a different combination, and some are totally different. Gabriela: I think at the beginning when I didn't have a clear concept, I let the stones guide me through the combinations of the pieces. But after that, now that I have a clearer concept, I design first and then I pick the gemstones. Mexico is a country with a lot of gemstones, so I have a wide variety to choose from. I didn't have any problem finding beautiful gemstones there. But yeah, at the beginning, the stones basically guided me. I designed pieces based on the stone and the shape of the stone, then I created the pieces. Now, I've had more time designing and creating jewelry, so I first create the design and then decide which stone will be better with the design and the concept. Sharon: When you say the stones guided you, do the stones ever talk to you and tell you what they should be or what they should be combined with? Gabriela: Yes, absolutely. It's funny, but yes. It is something that I used to say. “The earnings are like this this because they told me they needed to be combined with this stone in this particular shape in this particular order.” Yeah, the stones talk to me a lot. It was more at the beginning, but now they just say, “Okay, I like your design, so yes, we can go together.” Sharon: Do they ever say, “No, that's not right,” or “I don't like this”? Gabriela: Yes, they do. For example, I first design a piece. Then I send the drawing to my supplier or different suppliers. I receive a sample, and then I see it with the silver, and I try them and finish that prototype. I need to see if they are good together, and sometimes it's just not right. It feels not right. Maybe those stones don't want to be next to the silver or this particular stone. I don't know. But yeah, totally. Sharon: So you use different suppliers for stones? Gabriela: Yes. In Mexico, as I previously said, we have a lot of options, and I have great connections with local suppliers here. The first one, the main one was Don Guille he was the first lapidary that I worked with. Sharon: I'm sorry; is that a company name or a person's name? Gabriela: I'm sorry. I called him by his nickname. His name is Guillermo. Sharon: Okay. That's where you got your first stones from? Gabriela: Yeah. He passed away, and now his son and grandsons continue his craft. I also have other suppliers in San Miguel. I also have one from India, Naseem. I also get some gemstones from India. Those three are my main suppliers. Now I'm here in Montreal and I am finding new ones because I prefer to work with the stones that are close to me in Canada. I also have a lot of gemstones in the United States. Sharon: Do you have a favorite stone? Gabriela: Yes, I have one. I don't know if you know this gemstone. The name of this gemstone is cotton candy agate. This particular gemstone is from Mexico. I love the color of this gemstone because it reminds me of a cherry blossom. It's a very soft pastel pink. That is my favorite gemstone, but I love all types of jaspers. I love gemstones with a lot of personality and different patterns and different colors. Actually, the first one that I mentioned, the cotton candy agate, most of my first designs and pieces were with this gemstone. I created a collection with this one. Sharon: You use a lot of silver. Have you ever used a different metal? Gabriela: No. All my pieces are made with silver until last week, because I finished a ring and I incorporated copper. But that's the only piece that I incorporated copper. I'm just experimenting to see how it looks, how I work with this new material, because I hadn't worked with copper before. Mainly all the pieces that you see on my webpage are with silver, 10.50 silver. Sharon: Going back to the cotton candy stone, the pale pink stone, tell us about working with something like that. Is it easier to work with? Gabriela: That particular gemstone is easy to work with. The only difficult thing is that it's not easy to find. It's from Mexico, but it's not easy to find that particular gemstone. That's why I have a few gemstones and that particular agate, but I'm saving them for the future because I haven't found more of this gemstone. Sharon: Do you get other stones or other pink stones? Is Mexico the only place that you can find them? Can you find them in the United States or in Canada also?   Gabriela: Yes, you can find it in the United States, but they are from Mexico. There are suppliers that bought this particular item from Mexico. But yes, you can find it in the United States on Etsy or Facebook, Instagram, different suppliers. But this particular gemstone is from Mexico and that's it. You're not going to find it anywhere else. Sharon: Wow. So, they sell it to people in the States here. You're in Canada right now. Do you have any idea where you'll settle with your jewelry? Will you continue to work in Canada or move again? Gabriela: Right now, I'm in Canada because my husband is studying a master's here. Our idea or the main objective is to stay here in Canada. We love this city, Montreal. We have been here every year since four years ago. We love the culture, we love the weather, we love all the activities that are here. The main thing that we love here is that we can see the difference between seasons. In Mexico, it's not that easy to see the difference between seasons. Mexico has very good weather. I'm not saying that. It's just that you can't differentiate between seasons, because mainly the entire year is the same temperature. It doesn't change a lot. But yeah, we want to stay here. We'll see. I hope we can stay here. Sharon: As the seasons change the way you mentioned it, do they influence the stones? Do you make different kinds of jewelry in winter than in summer? Gabriela: Yes, for sure. Right now, I haven't created new collections here because I just recently found a studio to work. I found it last October. I started to create collections a year ago when I was in Mexico, and I created three because of the change of seasons. Depending on the seasons, I try to look for particular colors of the gemstones. Maybe because it's summer, I'm looking for more vibrant colors. In autumn it's more earth colors. Also, when it's winter in Mexico, I try to make smaller earrings instead of bigger because during winter you are wearing scarves. In my mind it's easier to wear smaller ones than big ones during winter. Sharon: How do you introduce yourself? Do you introduce yourself as a jewelry designer? How do you describe yourself? Gabriela: I always introduce myself as a jewelry maker, even though I also think I'm a jewelry designer. I think they go hand in hand. I think recently, in the last year and a half, I felt comfortable introducing myself as a jewelry designer. Sharon: Jewelry designer, okay. What do you consider a collection? Is it the colors? Is it a number of pieces? What is a collection made of? Gabriela: The collection that I created last year was my first one. So, for me, collection was a seasonal collection. I try to focus on the seasonal relevance at that particular time. I was inspired by the things during that particular season. For example, the one I created during summer was the candy collection. I created a collection of earrings resembling candies because they had vibrant colors, big statement earrings. Sharon: When do you make those? It must be hard in winter to be thinking about summer jewelry, or in summer to be thinking about winter jewelry. That's when you're making the collection, right? Not in the season, but before the season. Gabriela: Yeah, a little bit before. Just a little bit. I will admit that I'm not super organized. Sometimes I start making the rings or the collections just a couple of weeks before, so I'm seeing them in the middle of the season. Sharon: So, it's right before. What are you designing now? What colors are you thinking about now as spring is going into summer? I don't know how it is in Montreal, but here it's really spring. If it started snowing, would you think of different colors? If you're already working on the spring collection and suddenly it starts snowing, for instance. Gabriela: I'm a little bit behind, actually. I haven't finished the series of rings that I mentioned before, and for those rings the concept is winter. Right now I'm working with those. But at the same time in Mexico, Samantha is working on a collection for the web page with pieces that can be replicated. She's working with bold colors because spring is coming. We're working on new designs. Actually, this week, she is making some prototypes that I just made. I need to see them and approve them in order to continue with the real production for these pieces. But they're going to be with bold colors. We are both working with glass and some jaspers, and also with carbon quartz. Sharon: This is for production, but what were you describing by saying that you don't have a lot of inventory? That it's one of a kind? Gabriela: Well, we don't have a lot of inventory. The pieces that you see on our website are the pieces that we have in stock, and that's it. But those pieces that are not part of the one of a kind section, we can replicate them. The ones you are seeing on our web page are the ones we have available at the moment. If a client buys this piece right now, I need to make a new one in order to sell this new piece. Sharon: Do you ever reject a prototype and say, “I decided I don't want green. I want red in it”? You reject the prototype, you're saying yes. Gabriela: Yeah. If I don't like it, yes, of course. I just reject it and try again. I iterate a lot until I find the right combination, the right size, the right color, everything. Sharon: What do you mean by slow made? I've heard the term, but how do you define it? Gabriela: For me, slow made is quality over quantity. It's attention to detail. Pieces are made to order, as I mentioned before. We don't carry excessive inventory. We take our time to create each piece and to see that every piece is made at the right quality. Everything needs to be on point.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you'll learn in this episode: How Terhi's work changed as she moved from Finland to Amsterdam to France How the weather influenced Terhi's recent exhibition at Ornamentum Gallery How jewelry can help us explore the relationship between man and nature Why Terhi creates her work on a mannequin, and how she lets materials tell her what they want to be Why love is the most important thing an artist can put in their work   About Terhi Tolvanen Currently based in the French countryside, Terhi Tolvanen was born in Helsinki, Finland (1968).  Following studies at the Lahti Design Institute, Finland, and the Gerrit Rietveld Academy, NL, Tolvanen earned a Master's Degree in Jewelry at the Sandberg Institute, Amsterdam, NL. Tolvanen's works can be found in numerous distinguished private and public collections worldwide, including the Swiss National Museum, the Victoria & Albert Museum (London, UK) the Dallas Museum of Art (TX- USA) among others. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com: Additional Resources Website Instagram   Transcript: Terhi Tolvanen's jewelry isn't made of gold or diamonds, but in its own way, it's just as precious. The Finnish jeweler uses natural materials like wood, raw minerals and shells to create jewelry that not only looks beautiful, but challenges viewers to reflect on the world around them. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her daily walks shape her work; how living in Amsterdam and rural France have changed her jewelry over the years; and her advice for emerging artists. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. We're so glad you're here today. I'd never heard of our guest, Terhi Tolvanen, before. I don't know how I missed her jewelry because I like large, statement-type pieces, and that's what many of Terhi's pieces are. I was really taken with them. Welcome back. So, it's finding things in nature that you put together in what you call a sculpture. Terhi: Yeah, sculpture, jewelry. I do really make jewelry, but it's also all these wonderful materials that I manage to find. I'm also talking about, for example, light and movement. How do the trees, for example, move in the wind? This can be a big inspiration. Or an early summer rain, which gives a certain kind of light and color to things. I also have very many pieces where I'm talking about the metamorphosis of a flower, opening and being in full flower and then in the end fading away. The circle of life. I'm very fond of moss also, which I find very beautiful. It also talks about time because moss is growing very slowly, and it takes over places that have not been really taken care of. What is taken care of? There are cultures, like in Japan, where they think moss is very important and beautiful. They pour sour milk over stone so that moss would grow better. Whereas in Europe the moss is taken away. They have pieces where, for example, it's a moss collection. I made my own moss, or I make my own mushrooms, which are also very fascinating. Sharon: So, nature is where you get most of your inspiration from. From the things around you that other people might overlook? Terhi: Yes, it's that. Yes, I think so. The starting point is a little bit in this experience that I had when I moved to Amsterdam. In Finland, it's so normal for everybody to have nature around, and it's so very normal to go to the forest and to be able to pick berries and mushrooms and walk around. When I moved to Amsterdam, I realized that this is not at all the case over there. Everything is planted. Nothing is wild. Even the forest is planted, and you should not touch anything. So, the nature experience is totally, totally different. This was not really shocking to me, but I found it very interesting at the time. I think it's really a human need to be in touch with nature, and in a city situation, it starts on the balconies. The very first pieces I made after school were about flowerpots and balconies where people are creating their own nature spaces in a mini way. I found that very interesting. When one has a little bit more space, this becomes a garden, and there are all different kinds of gardens, very well taken care of or very wild gardens. I'm also very fond of all different garden wood. The best material for me is, for example, this curly hazelnut that has been pruned for many years, which makes it curl even more. This human interaction has been there already long before I get to this material in my hands. There are all kinds of fascinating situations with these thoughts. Sharon: Are people surprised when they look at your work, like, “What is this? This isn't jewelry. There's no diamonds or gold.” What is their reaction? Terhi: Yeah, sometimes. I don't have so many new people around that I get to hear this kind of remark. But yeah, sometimes it happens like, “Really? It's very big and it must be very heavy.” They find it very strange that branches can make a necklace. I have the feeling that the big question is “But where is the value?” It's easier to see the value when it's precious metal and shiny stones. Sharon: How do you introduce yourself to people who don't know you? If people ask what you do, what do you tell them? Terhi: I say I'm a jewelry artist, and then I have to explain. I say I'm a jewelry artist making contemporary jewelry because there are so many different types of jewelry. I have to explain that I'm selling my work through galleries and that there are collectors and museums buying, like it was any other art discipline like painting or sculpture. This explains the best, I think, the way I do work.  Otherwise, a remark I get very often is, “The Christmas market is very nice in that little town. Maybe this would be interesting for you.” Then I have to explain that I don't make pieces in series. My pieces are always unique pieces. I make some variations, but I never really copy a piece. There are some exceptions to the rule, but I haven't done it many times. Sharon: You're in many prestigious museums around the world. That must give you a lot of credibility when you're talking to people. Terhi: Yes, of course. This is really fantastic, that my work is valued. It's very good for motivation, and, of course, it gives status. It's fantastic to be appreciated in my work. It's quite important. I would say it's very important for me, yes. Sharon: It keeps you going. The first time a museum wanted to collect your work, did they come to you? Did they see it at a show? What happened? Terhi: The museums and collectors are buying from the galleries, so I am not in direct contact with them. With the years, I have gotten to meet some of my collectors. I have quite a few in the U.S., and this is very far away. So, there are some I have never met in person. I would say I've met more in Europe at the openings. It's very nice and important to be there for my own openings and especially to meet people. Sharon: Were you excited or inspired when you heard the museum bought your first piece or your second piece? Did it keep you going? Terhi: Yes, absolutely. Yes. I have quite a good list now. I have a couple of museums I would like to have my pieces also, so I still have work to do. Sharon: You mentioned that you're very busy in the studio right now. What are you working on? Terhi: Yes, I'm always very busy. The whole year is a rhythm with solo exhibitions. For quite some years now, there's a solo exhibition in one of my galleries every year. Then I have galleries that go regularly to fairs, and I try to have some new pieces for them. Right now, I'm finishing pieces for the Pearl Exhibition at Noel Guyomarc'h in Montreal. The Pearl Exhibition is touring now in several galleries, and then each gallery is asking other artists to participate. Noel asked me, among others. Then I'm also preparing some pieces for an art fair in Amsterdam. I'm also almost done with a customer order from Ornamentum Gallery. Sharon: Would you say the market for jewelry is growing in France, or is it remaining stable? Terhi: Well, it's quite stable, I would say, for quite some time now, which means in practice that I can't really work with any new galleries on a steady basis. I do participate in group exhibitions, of course, but I have four galleries now that I work with, and they wait all the time for new pieces. So, I'm full in work all the time. Sharon: That's a nice position to be in. At what point do the stones talk to you to say, “I'm going to be a necklace,” or I should be a ring or a bracelet”? Terhi: Yeah, absolutely the materials talk to me. I'm a very materialistic maker in that sense. The materials are extremely important for me. This was already the case from the beginning. I'm only getting better in it, I think, and a little bit quicker. The way it goes is that I often let the wood—the branches that have certain shapes, I let them decide what shape the necklace would be. They tell me how they would be. There is a way in this puzzle work that when they are arranged in the best way, they also talk about movement or waves or so on. The same thing with stones. For example, when I have a mineral, I carefully choose which side of this mineral I show, which is the front side, because there are differences. The back side is maybe not so nice. The color is maybe better from a certain angle. A lot also decides where I need to place the stones. For example, labradorite is very dependent on the light falling on the stone. When it is looked at from a certain direction, it gives this very strong blue and green light in the stone. This is why I turn them around. Because jewelry pieces are three dimensional when they're worn, I'm making my pieces on the mannequin. When I'm moving around my mannequin, I'm taking care that the stones are having light from all sides of the piece. It cannot be only from the front because a jewelry piece is never looked at only from the front. I let the material decide a lot. With time I have learned to see. I'm really looking for certain qualities in the material. There are certain stones that absolutely need to be a ring because the stone is the most beautiful or spectacular or gives its best when it's placed on the hand, where one can look at it and turn it around a little bit. Sharon: Now, you've been doing this for about 20 years at least. What would you say to people who are just starting out? What would you tell emerging artists? Terhi: I would tell them that when making, they have to give all the love they have to their work. This means that one needs to try to do his or her best every time because one cannot cheat on that. When you put all your soul and all the love you have into your piece, then it becomes a good piece. Love means it's a good work because all artists are responsible for the quality of their work. In today's world, where there are so many objects, so many things that we don't need, what justifies the fact that art needs to exist? We have to do our best to make only really good pieces. This is possible when you give a lot of love. How do I know if my piece is ready and good? I, myself, find the piece really having a presence. Sharon: So, that's what emerging artists or all artists should work towards. Terhi: Yes, I think this is very important. With time, when they manage to concentrate on this question, at the same time, the technical skills and everything around it will develop as well. Sharon: Well, thank you very much for talking with us today, Terhi. I hope we have a chance to do it again in the future. Terhi: Thank you so much, Sharon, for having me. It was great. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Terhi's work changed as she moved from Finland to Amsterdam to France How the weather influenced Terhi's recent exhibition at Ornamentum Gallery How jewelry can help us explore the relationship between man and nature Why Terhi creates her work on a mannequin, and how she lets materials tell her what they want to be Why love is the most important thing an artist can put in their work   About Terhi Tolvanen Currently based in the French countryside, Terhi Tolvanen was born in Helsinki, Finland (1968).  Following studies at the Lahti Design Institute, Finland, and the Gerrit Rietveld Academy, NL, Tolvanen earned a Master's Degree in Jewelry at the Sandberg Institute, Amsterdam, NL. Tolvanen's works can be found in numerous distinguished private and public collections worldwide, including the Swiss National Museum, the Victoria & Albert Museum (London, UK) the Dallas Museum of Art (TX- USA) among others. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com: Additional Resources Website Instagram   Transcript: Terhi Tolvanen's jewelry isn't made of gold or diamonds, but in its own way, it's just as precious. The Finnish jeweler uses natural materials like wood, raw minerals and shells to create jewelry that not only looks beautiful, but challenges viewers to reflect on the world around them. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her daily walks shape her work; how living in Amsterdam and rural France have changed her jewelry over the years; and her advice for emerging artists. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. We're so glad you're here today. I'd never heard of our guest, Terhi Tolvanen, before. I'll let her pronounce the name in Finnish. I don't know how I missed her jewelry because I like large, statement-type pieces, and that's what many of Terhi's pieces are. I was really taken with them. She uses a lot of materials found in nature, integrated with stones that we might see in other jewelry. Her work can be found in many prestigious museums around the world. She herself has studied in several countries, growing and perfecting her work. Today, we will learn a lot about Terhi and the inspiration and ideas you will find all around her. Welcome to the podcast, Terhi. Terhi: Thank you so much, Sharon, for inviting me. It's great to be talking with you. Sharon: I'm so glad that we have the chance to talk. Can you tell us why you moved from Finland to Amsterdam to France? Can you tell us how the materials varied in each area? Terhi: I moved away from Finland. Originally, I was supposed to be going away for only one year, but after technical school, I was missing quite a lot to learn more about the reasons why to make things. At the time in Finland, there was no possibility to continue. That's why I started looking elsewhere. I ended up then studying in Rietveld Academy in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands, and I totally fell in love with the school. The one year I was supposed to stay became six years. After four years, I also did a master course over there, and after school I stayed because it was great. I fell in love with jewelry. There were galleries, there were events, there were colleagues, there were things happening. During the school years, I made a lot of friends, and I found a place to stay and all that. Now for about 10 years, I've been in France. I moved to France because of love. I fell in love. Sharon: Love, okay. And did you find materials different in each area? Terhi: The materials, yeah, of course. Moving to France has changed the accessibility to my materials totally, because I moved to the countryside from the city. This meant that I was able to use more and more branches that I could collect and find a little bit everywhere. And I've continued what I started doing already in the Netherlands for finding all my minerals and stones. I would go to mineral fairs. Now that I'm in France, I go to Paris. Sharon: Are there are a lot of materials in Paris? Do you find things to work with? Terhi: There is a quite good mineral fair once a year, in the beginning of December. I almost always have to wait one year if I want to have something or find the same thing again or find new material. When I do that, I have to count that I have enough for working for one year. I buy a lot and I don't always use everything. Sometimes it can even take up to five years before I really know what I want to do with certain minerals, but this is always very exciting for me. I'm a very big fan of minerals and stones in any shape and color and format. I have used a lot of rough minerals that I would cut just a little bit so that the dimensions would fit on a piece. For about three or four years, I've also been buying some cut stones. When I still lived in Amsterdam, I used to work with a stone cutter who would cut stones especially for me, and that was a very good cooperation. Since then, he has stopped working a little bit in that way. But he would save me things the normal goldsmiths wouldn't want to buy. He learned very quickly that was interesting for me. Mainly it was things that were a little bit different, a little bit less perfect than a traditional goldsmith would want to use. Sharon: How long have you been a maker? Did you choose it later or did you choose it when you were young? Terhi: I have been a maker since my graduation from the Sandberg Instituut. The master course in Amsterdam is called Sandberg Instituut. I graduated from there in 1999, and I had my first solo show in 2000. Of course, it took a little time to get going. But now it's 24 years ago. It's long. Sharon: And you knew when you graduated that you wanted to be a maker or a jeweler. That's what you wanted to do professionally. Terhi: Yes. I was asking this question a lot while studying. When I started studying in Amsterdam, I was absolutely convinced that I don't want to be an artist and I don't want to make jewelry. But I thought, “Never mind. I will be able to learn a lot of important things anyway at school.” This meant that during a lot of school years, I was trying all kinds of different things. I was drawing a lot, I was making objects, I was working a lot with textiles, sort of half- clothes, half-sculpture pieces. And then at one moment towards the end of the master course, when it really became a reality that soon I will have to get out of the school and go into the real world, I really decided, “Okay, I will make jewelry,” because my conclusion, after all these school years, was that that's the thing I can do the best. So, I really chose it. Also, because of the situation at the time in the Netherlands, it was possible to ask for working grants for jewelry arts. I had some very good school friends that were very much encouraging me to take the jewelry direction. So, yes, it was a very conscious decision at the time, and I have not regretted it. Sharon: It was long periods when you were in a country. You said you were in Amsterdam for six years. Did you teach? I don't know, maybe I have that wrong. Terhi: No, not there. I was there for school for six years altogether. Also, I stayed for the reason that it was cheaper to work at school than rent a studio. When I graduated from the Instituut, I stayed in Amsterdam because it was, work wise, very exciting to stay there. I had a job on the site. Then later I got a working grant. I had a nice studio, so I stayed in Amsterdam until 2013 when I moved to France. Sharon: I have to ask if you knew the languages before you came to each country. Well, English in Amsterdam works. What languages do you speak? Terhi: I'm multilingual. in Amsterdam I decided that I would like to learn Dutch because I thought it is very important for the quality of life. I managed to learn Dutch, so I speak Dutch quite fluently. At school it was a lot in English, of course. I speak Finnish, Dutch, English, and now in France, people don't speak so much English, so I really had to learn French. I had already studied French during all my school time in Finland, so I had a base for that, but I couldn't speak it so well. Now, of course, with all the years, I have learned to speak French. I'm teaching now in France at ENSAD Limoges, the École Nationale Supérieure d'Art et de Design, which is one of the national art schools. I'm teaching in French. Sharon: As you learned each language, did your works change? Did it make it easier to work or harder? Did you see a change in your work? Terhi: Well, living abroad, it's often lost in translation, of course. To know a language very well, you need to also understand the mentality and the culture of each country. I don't know if it's so much the language that's influencing the work. It's more the physical fact being in a certain place with certain surroundings. Of course, for me nature is very important. It's a richness, the language is. Definitely, yes. Sharon: Your most recent exhibition, I don't know if you had another one since then, but last summer you were at Ornamentum Gallery. Your work was shown at Ornamentum Gallery, which is in Massachusetts, I think. Terhi: It's in Hudson, New York. Sharon: Okay. I couldn't remember. Hudson, New York. The exhibit was called Moderate to Southwest Winds. What does that mean in jewelry? What did you think it meant? Terhi: I chose the title. It's a weather forecast. It's taken out of a weather forecast. I chose that because while working for that show, I realized that what is really making the rhythm of my work and my thinking is the weather. I go out every morning for a walk, and this is a very important moment for me depending on the face in the work. Either I try to just empty my mind and observe things in nature. I look at colors and light and shapes and textures. Or, when I'm a little bit further in the work, then the moment of walking is very nice for finding solutions, so I'm working in my head. And, of course, what is then very important is the weather. If it's nice weather, if the sun is shining, if it's raining, if it's the spring or the winter. In wintertime, there is not so much light, so I have to wait for the light to be able to go out. This is totally deciding the rhythm of my day. As I also wrote at the time for the text of the exhibition, all my life I've been following the weather forecast. I check every morning what kind of weather it's going to be. I plan my day. If it's raining in the morning, I will go and do my walk in the afternoon and so on. This is something that I learned from my grandfather in Finland who had a little summer cottage on a little island. It's important to know what kind of weather it is, if it was safe to take the boat to the mainland or not. This is a kind of habit. It's sort of a daily ritual for me. I was also thinking that as the weather is the factor that is so important, I can also say that what was a little bit different for this exhibition was that the theme was a little bit more general. I let myself have the freedom of not deciding so tightly the theme that I'm working on. During COVID, I had put aside all kinds of different plans, all kinds of pieces that I wanted to make but I was not able to make at the time. I also had some materials that they had put on the site especially for the show at Ornamentum. I decided to make the show in that way, that I will make all these pieces that were waiting to be made. I found that, like the weather, the circumstances of the situation led to that conclusion somewhat and what I could say. Sharon: How did COVID affect you and your work? Terhi: I found it a very, very difficult time. I didn't stop working totally, but I was not able to really make my big pieces. It was quite military like, I would say. How to explain? The French system was very strict. To go out, you had to sign a paper and you had to tell what you were going to do, and you had one hour to do that. If you would not be back at home on time, then you would get fined. There was a very efficient fear campaign on television and so on. It felt very uncertain, and I'm sure this was the case for everybody. It took away a lot of the safe feeling which is necessary to be able to really dive into a big work. In a way, the time was cut in small moments when it was possible to create. Ever since I started working, I think the COVID year was really the first year that I didn't have so much production. Sharon: Were you allowed to go out to your studio? Is your studio in your home or is it separate? Terhi: At the time, I had a studio in a little town close to home. When they announced that the lockdown is going to come, I moved the most important things from my studio to my home so then I didn't have to go. This would have been possible. I could have signed the paper and said, “I'm going to my work,” but I felt better working at home. Also, being in the countryside, it was more free to go out. It was an isolated house at the time. I have moved since, but it was much easier to be there than in a city situation. I'm glad I did it. I moved my goldsmithing bench and my main tools and my main materials. Sharon: You moved them home? Terhi: Yeah, I had a little room at home to be able to work. Sharon: What did you want them to learn from the exhibition? Let's say your show at Ornamentum was the first time they were seeing your work or contemporary jewelry. What did you want them to learn by looking at it? Terhi: I'm very concerned about wearability in my work. This gives the scale. For somebody who is not so acquainted with contemporary jewelry, a lot of times people find it very big. I like to say that my work is sculpture. Then one could say that it's wearable sculpture. I'm also, first of all, talking about nature since the beginning. I'm working on the same theme in a way for about 20 years. I never changed because there are always new things. What I want to really put in the front—this is a little bit of a French saying, sorry—is that nature is very precious, and there are a lot of very beautiful things to see. How to put it very simply? I just want to show that it's very special. There are a lot of little things you can see when one walks in the forest. It's worthwhile to really look. This sounds a little bit like no explanation because there are so many factors. But I'm talking about a dialog between man and nature. I'm talking about respect towards nature. I'm talking about this kind of eagerness to control nature, and the nature is fighting back so this dialog is never ending. Of course, today this is a topic that is more actual than ever. There are so many wonderful things. It's amazing, I think. I mean, just the mineral world. It's amazing what nature can make. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.    

What you'll learn in this episode: How to use Antique Jewelry University to identify maker's marks and find out when your jewelry was made. Why access to more (and better) information has made interest in antique jewelry explode. What characteristics Suzanne looks for when evaluating antique jewelry. Why buyers should beware of lab-grown diamonds in vintage jewelry. Why modern diamonds and manufacturing techniques can't compare to the materials and skills used by jewelers in the past. About Suzanne Martinez Suzanne Martinez is the co-owner of Lang Antiques, a San Francisco-based shop that offers the largest collection of fine vintage engagement rings and antique jewels to be found under one roof. She is a highly credentialed senior gemologist, jewelry appraiser, jewelry historian and the curator for Lang's collection. She actively buys from sellers all over the world. Suzanne is also the founder of Lang's Antique Jewelry University. Suzanne started collecting rocks and minerals as a child, and by the time she was 13 knew that the jewelry world was her passion. For fun she makes enameled jewelry and studies natural history and Latin American cultural anthropology. Images courtesy of Lang Antique & Estate Jewelry available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional resources: Website Suzanne's LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Antique Jewelry University Lang Antique and Estate Jewelry is the prime destination for vintage jewelry lovers, but you don't have to be in San Francisco to take advantage of the store's services. Lang ships jewelry globally and offers Antique Jewelry University, a completely free online guide to maker's marks and jewelry history. Jewelry historian and Lang co-owner Suzanne Martinez joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Lang curates its huge collection of antique engagement rings; the history of Antique Jewelry University; and what she looks for when evaluating an antique piece. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, we're talking with Suzanne Martinez of Lang Antiques in San Francisco. Welcome back. Do you manufacture yourselves? Does Lang manufacture? Suzanne: We have what we call our Lange line. Sometimes a piece of jewelry will come in and it's worn out. It doesn't have another livelihood, so we can't guarantee it to a customer. I'm talking about a ring in particular. We have, probably for more than 20 years, been making hand-fabricated rings that are in the style of or influenced by a real ring design. They're very similar to the older pieces, and we hand fabricate them. In the last few years, we've had a greater demand. People don't want to pay for the cost of having a ring hand fabricated like the originals. It's very expensive when a mounting costs more than the diamond you're setting in it, and that's not unusual. So, we have done some work with partners that do CAD that have helped us create our designs in CAD, but we do very little of that. 90% of what we do, if we're going to take an old stone and remake a ring out of it, is hand fabricated. We try and stick to the tenets of the old jewelry that we sell. Sharon: Do people come in and say, “Can you repolish this stone?” Maybe they have an old ring, a vintage ring, and the stone is beat up but they want it repolished. Suzanne: That's a really good question. The stones that get beat up are things that are not a diamond. You have to be pretty hard on a diamond to beat it up or to chip it. But sapphires, if they've been worn for 15, 20 years even, they're going to have some abrasions on them. When we buy a piece of jewelry, that's one of the things we do. We will remove those stones and repolish them before we resell them. But as far as a customer coming in with their own personal collection, we don't have an in-house lapidary, so we don't do that. There are people that specialize in and help people refurbish like that, but it's not something we offer because we don't do it in-house. Sharon: Was your business affected by COVID? Suzanne: It was actually positively affected. I think people had more time. We know they had more time at home, and I think people did a lot more screen time. We had a lot more visitors to our website, and people got very excited about antique jewelry, especially colored stones and things they could wear on a Zoom call so people could see their jewelry, like a pair of earrings or a pendant. Business increased because of that, which was very good. I think the awareness grew. People found out about antique jewelry more. Look at Instagram. Instagram is different than it was three years ago, but there were a lot of people spending a lot of time on Instagram and other social media and just watching, because it's eye candy. People come to our website for the same reason. Who doesn't like to look at beautiful jewelry? I just told this story to a customer that came in yesterday. It just came to mind. We used to keep our jewelry in our window. We used to have probably a thousand pieces in the window, tons of jewelry just packed in. I'd watch people walk by. They'd stop in the window, and then they'd walk away with a big smile on their face because jewelry makes people happy. It's beautiful. I think people gained an appreciation during that time period. Sharon: Did you see an increase in sales because people didn't have things to spend the money on? Suzanne: Well, they weren't traveling. They weren't going out to eat, so they were buying jewelry. We were lucky because part of our business is an e-commerce business, and it's something we've done for a long time. I think some of the jewelers that didn't have that ability to interact with their clients in the same way probably didn't gain from it. But it was good for our business. Sharon: When you had a thousand pieces or a lot of jewelry in the window, did you take it out every night? Suzanne: Oh yeah, every single piece. We had our windows designed so they were modular, so you could take a whole tray of jewelry out and put it on carts and take it to our walls to sell it. We made it work because if you had to take out one at a time, that would take you another couple of hours. Sharon: Do you have local people, people in San Francisco or in Northern California, who come to the store just to look at the window or to look and see what's new? Suzanne: It's really interesting, because when people come into our store, they're either going to have an appointment or we're a destination. They know who we are before they come. They might be coming to see what's new. They might be coming because they have a particular piece of jewelry they want to look at, and sometimes it's just part of their trip to San Francisco. They always come to Lang. Sharon: Do you sell things besides rings, or is it all rings or mostly rings? Suzanne: No, I would say rings are probably half of what we sell, colored stone and diamond rings, then all other kinds of jewelry. People wear brooches still, believe it or not. We sell a lot of pins and brooches. You don't see people wearing them as much, but we're bringing that back. We like them. They're beautiful, small forms of art, you know? Sharon: I was intrigued because you used the word collectors. I looked at the store and it was all rings. As I was scrolling through, it seemed like one on every two pages was something that wasn't a ring. Suzanne: Well, you have to filter, just like any website you're on. We have filters set up so that you can choose how you look at different jewelry. If you want to look at rings, if you want to dive in and just look at sapphire rings, if you want to look at Art Deco sapphire rings, you can do all of those things. You can look at all of our jewelry in one page, which is a few thousand pieces that are online. That's kind of an ominous task. So, filtering is a good way to use our website to find what you're looking for, or just to look. Like I said, it's eye candy. Sharon: How often do you get things that might not be a ring that you would put on the website or people come to the store to see? Suzanne: If you watch our What's New page, you'll see that we sell more things and post more things that are not rings. Rings are maybe 30 to 40% of what we put on our website. There are pendants, earrings, brooches, necklaces, a little bit of everything. Sharon: In reading the description of your store, that it's world renowned, it seems like you have everything related to vintage engagement rings or vintage rings. Suzanne: That is what we're known for. We have over 800 diamond rings. That's a large collection of vintage diamond rings. We've curated our collection very carefully over the years. People buy from Lang because all of our rings have been fully restored. For example, the prongs are not worn down anymore. We will replace and put new prongs on the ring. If the diamond has a small chip, we remove the diamond and we'll repair the chip before we put it back in. All of our diamonds of one carat or larger, we send to the GIA for a lab report. We do a lot of work to make sure that the ring we're selling has all the necessary information for a customer to make a decision on whether they want to buy it. When you look at an antique diamond, it has a different kind of beauty than a modern round brilliant. Most antique diamonds have a little bit of color to them. They are a J or a K color very commonly, and you have to kind of throw out the standard of the modern round brilliant-cut because you can't compare them. An old diamond has a different way of reacting with light. It breaks the light up into spectral colors more. It's just a playful, beautiful diamond, so it doesn't look like every other round brilliant-cut diamond. Each one is hand cut and unique. To me, that's a starting point of what makes an antique ring so special. Then you get the way that the ring is manufactured. They're hand fabricated, and die striking is a very high-quality way of making a ring. It started because platinum was an expensive metal in the past. Now its price per ounce is less than gold. It's still harder to work in, but it was always the most expensive metal. It was always 10 times the cost of gold. Because of this, up until 1920, there were no white metals other than silver. White gold hadn't been patented. It was patented probably in 1918, 1919, but it didn't get into manufacturing techniques until 1920. If you see somebody that says it's a Victorian piece of jewelry and it's white gold, that is the wrong description. There is no way. There was no white gold manufacturing in the 19th century. 1920 is the demarcating line. After that, they were able to offer white metal jewelry, which was popular in Art Deco, black and white jewelry. This could be offered to people because they were die striking white gold instead of hand fabricating platinum. It still was a high-quality product, but they were using the less expensive white gold versus the platinum. It also justified using a quarter carat diamond, whereas to hand fabricate a platinum ring with a quarter carat, you don't see that. Well, of what survived. That would be a rarity, to see something under a half carat. Sharon: Do you have to explain this to a couple that comes in looking for a ring with a modern diamond that was a third of the price or half the price? Suzanne: Usually, people that are already interested in vintage and antique, older rings, they're coming for a different reason. They've already decided this is what they want. They're not saying, “Well, why shouldn't I buy a round brilliant-cut diamond?” But we answer all their questions, and not everybody needs to do a deep dive. If you're someone who has no background in the jewelry business, to tell them about 1920 and die striking and all that, that may be a little too much information for them. We have it and we're there to give it to them, but we let the customer guide their own journey and ask the questions. We find it's a lot easier for them to manage. Does that make sense? Sharon: Yeah. Suzanne: And just to clarify another thing, the man doesn't come in and buy the ring that often. The man and the woman come in together. It's very common for that. And we have women coming in together and men coming in together. We have all kinds of couples that are buying antique and vintage jewelry. Sharon: I know how detailed it can be to look at a vintage and everything you're talking about. I can see myself saying, “Enough already. That's all I need to know.” So, you're a jewelry historian. The Antique Jewelry University was already somewhat started by Christie Romero, but what motivated you to continue to develop it into such an in-depth resource? Suzanne: Something that I have always done for myself personally, for my staff, with the GIA alumni, it's all continuing education. Whenever I go to the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show, I go to as many educational presentations as possible. I've been involved with the GIA Alumni for over 30 years. We bring speakers to our local chapter and continue their education and elevate people so they know more. There are so many topics as far as jewelry is concerned that it's just fascinating. You have gem cutters, you have people that manufacture, you have jewelers. What's your design process? There are so many ways to learn. We have miners that come and speak to us and talk about their journey into the earth and how they extract certain kinds of gems. That's just barely scratching the surface. Continuing education is so important to me personally. In order for me to buy jewelry and understand it, I had to learn. How is anyone else going to understand my process so they are confident to buy from Lang? It's all part and parcel. It's all education. Someone comes in and, like you said, we do educate them to the degree that they want to be educated. All this information is free. Antique Jewelry University, we've never charged for it. We have more than one full-time staff person working on AJU every day. It's something that we do to give back to our community. It's very important to me. Sharon: How do you promote it? How do you let people know about it? Jewelry organizations I've been in, we know about it, but how do you let the larger world know it's available? Suzanne: It's kind of an organic process. We share it with our customers in every way we can. I usually speak at least once a year. I'll speak somewhere, or I will go to a conference and set up a table. My partner in doing this is Starla Turner. We have a table, we'll bring different rings, we'll have a card on each ring and say, “Here's a loupe. Look at it, and this is what you're going to look for.” Then we have Antique Jewelry University running on a computer, and we have a big poster. We want people to know about it, but most of the people that use it are in the trade. How do you educate somebody as to what they are buying? Is it authentic? That is a hard thing to do with the public because they don't have the basic knowledge to start with. So, Antique Jewelry University has many levels. You could be a novice and you just want to come in and find out when a piece was made. My grandmother gave me a locket. When do you think that locket was made? There's a place for you to find out that information. Then if you want to dive a little deeper, you can. What's the history of lockets? Or someone who is a historian themselves, they might want to add to the knowledge they have, or share with us the knowledge they have to help us create a deeper knowledge base on a particular topic. Think of it as tiered information. We have people come to us, whether they're shopping on our website, or they've found out about us through Instagram or Facebook or Pinterest and they want to find out more information, they go to Antique Jewelry University. Sharon: Could I come to your store and have your staff look at a piece of jewelry and tell me what they think it is? Suzanne: Absolutely. That's half the fun of coming to Lang. You get to really look at these pieces. It's kind of like a museum. You get to look at pieces and they're for sale. You can touch them. You can have someone tell you about them. It's fun. It's really fun. Sharon: Why did you continue it after Christie passed away? Suzanne: Christie just did the timeline. That's what she started. I did the glossary of terms, and she gifted that to us before she died. We included that. I had already started the glossary. I met Christie. The two of us became friends. I call her one of my people. This is why you go to jewelry shows. This is why you go to gem shows. These are your people that understand and have the same passion that you do. She was very passionate. I was really grateful that she was in my life and that we had this part of our journey together. Sharon: And you just continued adding to it when she wasn't available to do it. Suzanne: Yeah. Christie passed about 20 years ago. We've been adding content to Antique Jewelry University since the day we started. I think it launched in 2020ish. That's when we launched the website. Sharon: Did you ever think it would be such a resource or so big? Suzanne: Oh, no. It just kind of unfolded. At first it was just, how do you share a library? Let's just add some things so that people have a resource to find out about what they're buying. It was more for our customers. Then we realized there's a huge community out there, whether they're customers or not, and we all benefit from each other. We're a community of people, and everyone that works at Lang is passionate about jewelry. I have gemologists on staff that are just—my friend Starla I was talking about, she's a black belt gemologist. We have Mary, who is an incredible historian that continues to write articles for Antique Jewelry University. The head of our marketing is Nicole Corsini, and she's a gemologist as well as, if you pick up the phone and want to talk to her about a piece of jewelry that you're interested in buying, she will tell you everything about it because she's got the history. She understands marketing and how to present information to you. Everybody has something that they are special in as well as the passion. When you shop at Lang, you're shopping with passionate people that just love what they do. I'm very, very blessed to have all these people. It's a really special organization. Sharon: It seems like it. I didn't know it was so extensive. I knew of Lang and the Antique Jewelry University, but I didn't realize it was so in-depth and extensive. Suzanne, thank you for being here today. We really enjoyed it. We learned a lot. thank you very much. Suzanne: It was my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you, Sharon. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How to use Antique Jewelry University to identify maker's marks and find out when your jewelry was made. Why access to more (and better) information has made interest in antique jewelry explode. What characteristics Suzanne looks for when evaluating antique jewelry. Why buyers should beware of lab-grown diamonds in vintage jewelry. Why modern diamonds and manufacturing techniques can't compare to the materials and skills used by jewelers in the past. About Suzanne Martinez Suzanne Martinez is the co-owner of Lang Antiques, a San Francisco-based shop that offers the largest collection of fine vintage engagement rings and antique jewels to be found under one roof. She is a highly credentialed senior gemologist, jewelry appraiser, jewelry historian and the curator for Lang's collection. She actively buys from sellers all over the world. Suzanne is also the founder of Lang's Antique Jewelry University. Suzanne started collecting rocks and minerals as a child, and by the time she was 13 knew that the jewelry world was her passion. For fun she makes enameled jewelry and studies natural history and Latin American cultural anthropology. Images courtesy of Lang Antique & Estate Jewelry available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional resources: Website Suzanne's LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Antique Jewelry University Lang Antique and Estate Jewelry is the prime destination for vintage jewelry lovers, but you don't have to be in San Francisco to take advantage of the store's services. Lang ships jewelry globally and offers Antique Jewelry University, a completely free online guide to maker's marks and jewelry history. Jewelry historian and Lang co-owner Suzanne Martinez joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Lang curates its huge collection of antique engagement rings; the history of Antique Jewelry University; and what she looks for when evaluating an antique piece. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, we're talking with Suzanne Martinez of Lang Antiques in San Francisco. I should say that's where the brick and mortar is, but they sell all over the world. Lang Antiques is the country's, if not the world's, largest purveyor of vintage engagement rings. They have an unparalleled collection. Suzanne herself is a jewelry historian, among other things. Lang Antiques has developed an online Antique Jewelry University. Researchers from all over the world use this as a resource to research the history of a piece of jewelry. If you're interested in jewelry, then this makes a very good read. I was looking at it last night again, and I didn't have any piece of jewelry in mind, but it was very interesting to read. I've heard Suzanne give a talk at ASJRA, another major jewelry organization, and I've heard Suzanne give talks identifying a piece of jewelry, and she goes into tremendous detail. There's no way that you could not look at a piece of jewelry and know what you should be looking for. She'll tell us more about Antique Jewelry University. She'll also tell us how over the years, the store has become world renowned. They have done this by developing an unparalleled collection of jewelry, a reputation for professional expertise, and the longevity of this jewelry store. Suzanne, welcome to the program. Suzanne: I'm happy to be here. Good morning. Sharon: Can you tell us where the Lang in Lang Antiques and Estate Jewelry comes from? Suzanne: We bought the store from Jarmilla Lang in 1991. She was the original owner of the store and a jewelry historian herself way before her time. She had worked in Europe in museums, so she had this breadth of knowledge of decorative arts and jewelry that she brought to San Francisco with her when she opened this store. Sharon: Wow. There aren't any certificates as a jewelry historian. It's just knowledge, right? Knowledge and other people saying, “Well, you're a jewelry historian.” I presume you're a gemologist also. You look at so many rings. That's very interesting. What do you say to those who would never buy a piece of jewelry online because they have to feel it and see it and all of that? Suzanne: Like you said, I am a gemologist and I have been for 45 years. Part of the gemological training is learning how to be forensic with what you're looking at. Whether it's a gemstone or a piece of jewelry, if you are buying from someone who is knowledgeable enough to understand what they're looking at and share that information with you, that gives a huge degree of trust. I think that's one thing that stands out for Lang. We have a really good understanding of whether it's a real piece of antique jewelry. How is it made? Why is this design important? Who else made this design popular over time and why? We like to give tidbits of history with every piece we sell. I do call myself a jewelry historian, but by no means do I know everything. I have a library. I haven't read every single book in my library. However, if a piece comes in and I look at it, I know which book to look for to find a reference about it. And there are many jewelry historians that I look up to. It's a community. Sharon: If I see a piece of jewelry on your website and I want to know more about it, or I want to know if I can trust this outfit If I don't know it, do I call you or send you the piece? Can you explain the process? Suzanne: If you want to know more about your own piece of jewelry, that's why we have Antique Jewelry University. It's a place where you can do your own research. We have a huge database of hallmarks because one thing that we probably get the most inquiries about is, “Who made this piece of jewelry? Here's the mark I have.” We refer them to this database we have because it's pretty impressive. Auction houses and appraisers and people all over use that database. Every piece of jewelry we have with a maker's mark, we do our best to research it. It's not always easy. It's not always possible. Then we photograph it, and we include it on our website. We try and add a little snippet about who the jeweler was, where they were located, and what years they did their manufacturing. You have to match when a piece was made because some there are false marks, too. If a piece of jewelry is marked 585, which is the percentage for 14-karat gold, it was not made in the 19th century. They didn't mark jewelry like that. There is that forensic bit, too. Hopefully we can help people down that path. We call it the jewelry journey. We do. It's finding out when their jewelry was made. If they want to find out more about a piece of jewelry we have on our website that they might be interested in buying, we invite inquiries. We talk to them over the phone or by email, whatever they're comfortable with, and try and satisfy all their questions about it and add information as well. Sharon: Did you develop the online Antique Jewelry University yourself? Suzanne: When we started our website, that was back in 1998. We were kind of early adapters. There were no e-commerce platforms at that time, so we developed our own e-commerce platform. By the early 2000s, we were actually selling online. When we launched our website, Antique Jewelry University was a 1000-word glossary. I had been collecting terms. Christie Romero was an incredible jewelry historian. She was here in Southern California, and she taught jewelry history. I don't remember which college it was down there, but she would put on symposiums and bring speakers in. Anyway, incredible woman. She started a glossary of terms and a timeline that, when she passed—unfortunately, she's no longer with us—she gifted to Antique Jewelry University. So, between her information and my glossary of terms, we started Antique Jewelry University and just built upon it. Sharon: Do you continue to build upon it if you see a new term or something you haven't included before? Suzanne: Absolutely. We are always researching. We have a woman who does a lot of our writing. Her name is Mary Borchert, and that is her job, just doing research. We have quite a library of reference books, so everything that we put on Antique Jewelry University is fully referenced. We notate that at the bottom of all our articles as well. We're not just copying it from somewhere else on the internet, which a lot of people do, and a lot of people copy Antique Jewelry University. That can be a compliment, but at the same time, we do all of our own work. Sharon: That's impressive, considering how in-depth it is. Just look at it online. Why do you think that the interest in antique jewelry has grown so much in the past few years? Suzanne: I think there's a lot of transparency. A lot of people are able to access information because of the advent of social media. Just think of all the people that are sharing their own personal information. We are on all the different social media channels as well, and I've seen them grow. If you have an interest in a particular type, like Art Nouveau jewelry, you can find Art Nouveau jewelers that have Instagram or Pinterest and look at beautiful jewelry and learn about it. In the past, when I started as a jeweler, if you didn't have a library, there was no place to go. You went to a museum, and that's where you found your information. Now I think it's a rich time for people to access information. I think we also visually see antique and vintage jewelry worn on the red carpet, at the Met Gala, and we see jewelry that is inspired by antique jewelry. You have famous houses. Everybody knows who Cartier is. You have the most beautiful antique Cartier jewelry, and then you have people that have copied it. That's a big tribute, but you don't always know if it's a Cartier or it isn't. That's why it's important who you buy it from. But at the same time, it's permeated everything, antique and vintage styles. Whether it's somebody creating something new with a nod to something vintage or it's truly vintage, I think it's just what people see today. It's massive. Sharon: Your selection of engagement rings is massive. Have you seen that grow in the past few years, the interest and the couples coming in and wanting to see your vintage only? Suzanne: Because that's what we specialize in—we specialize in antique diamonds, so our vintage and antique jewelry is why people come to buy from us. They understand that it's socially responsible, it's recycled. That's one of the reasons they buy it. They also want a little bit of history. They want something that no one else has, something very unique. They want something that has a beautiful design and is executed in a way that jewelry isn't executed today. You get a beautiful Edwardian jewel, no one can make a piece of jewelry like that in today's world. They just don't. The jewelry today is made on CAD. Very few jewelers are hand fabricators or can fabricate something that delicate. If you want the real deal, you're going to shop at a store like Lang.  Sharon: What happens if you get a call from somebody outside of the U.S. or even on the other side of the U.S. that wants a piece? They want a vintage engagement ring, but they can't come to the store. What do you do? Suzanne: Actually, more of our customers are outside of our store and shop just online because we have jewelry that no one else has. Where are they going to find it if they don't find it from a store like Lang? We have a very large selection. It's not unusual for a customer to narrow their choice down to two or three. Sometimes we just send them all three and they can try them on in the comfort of their own home. They have a period of time which they can return them. We make it work. Sharon: I thought it was really interesting that you had that, the one, two, three. Maybe it's the person who writes about the antique jewelry. The one, two, three of what you look for to know more about a piece of jewelry. That was like first looking at the hallmarks. I looked at it last night but I don't remember what's next. Suzanne: For a private individual, when they're trying to identify their own jewelry, style is really important. But for an individual, if you have family history and you know that piece was your grandmother's, at least you have a date within which to start. If you're just out in the world and you identify a piece of jewelry that you love but you don't really know how old it is, that's a little more difficult. How do you know it doesn't match the type of manufacturing techniques that were done when, say, an Art Nouveau piece of jewelry was made, versus something that is made today in the Art Nouveau style? That is something that's a little harder. That's why you need to rely on an appraiser, someone to help you with that. But when I personally look at a piece of jewelry, how I select a piece of jewelry for our store, style is really important. Good design is always good design. Bad design is obvious, and it just doesn't make a great piece of jewelry. The techniques of manufacture have to be right. It has to be in excellent condition. There's a lot of things that I look at that go in the background, that not everybody sees when they look at a piece. They see a beautiful piece of jewelry when they're shopping, but the backstory is it has to be in excellent condition. It has to be correct. Lang is very careful about letting people know when, for example, cufflinks have been out of style for quite some time, and a lot of the cufflinks that were made circa 1900 to 1930 are small. They're very small. They're really too small for men to wear. Men don't wear them, and they're very delicate. What we do is convert them to earrings. We make the most beautiful earrings out of these cufflinks that otherwise would lose their livelihood, and we've been very successful with doing that. But we tell people these were converted from a pair of earrings, whether it's Art Nouveau or an Art Deco cuff link. Those are the kinds of things that if we make a change, we tell people about it. Sharon: If somebody wants to sell jewelry to you or to another place, let's say they take their family collection and show it to you, or they take it out of the safe deposit box and decide they want the jewelry to be out in the world, what do you say? Have you ever turned people away? Suzanne: Absolutely. What if something was made in the last 25 years and its value is gold? It's something that is mass produced and there's lots and lots of them made and it's not in style anymore. It deserves to be recycled into something more beautiful again. In all pieces, it's back to that design, quality, authenticity and condition. Those are the things that I look for. I wish I could say I could buy every single piece that comes through my door, but realistically we have a large collection. Let's say right now I have 30 hardstone cameos. If someone brought me a hardstone cameo today, I would have to make sure that it exceeded my current collection to add it to my collection, or it has to be something that I feel customers are buying right now. The market goes up and down. Retro is a little soft right now. I like it. It's beautiful. The designs are gorgeous, but I'm not adding to our retro collection because we have a pretty extensive retro collection right now. Those are the kinds of things where sometimes I will say no. But usually individual, one-of-a-kind pieces of jewelry, that's what we're looking for. Sharon: Can you recognize if something is one of a kind when it's presented to you? I know you think about things and what you have, but do you research the piece? Do you look at it under the microscope? Suzanne: Some pieces definitely need to be researched, but most pieces are jewelry where maybe more than one of them has been made. In our diamond ring collection, for example, during the 1920s and 1930s, a lot of those rings were die struck. They were made in a die and many of them were made, but very few survive. In all my years of buying and selling vintage engagement rings and antique engagement rings, maybe I've seen a handful that were the same as one I had already seen. That's because the piece may be struck on a die, but then its hand pierced, its hand finished. There may be a garland or small milgrain, or it may have small diamonds added to it and this one doesn't have diamonds added to it. Each one has a handprint of a person on it, the work master or the person that does the engraving or the setter. Each one has its own imprint, so they still tend to look one of a kind. But knowing the underlying structure of something is still one of the ways we determine when it was made. You know when you see a die struck ring, that's the period of time within which it was made. Sharon: Do people bring lab-grown diamonds in? I know they're not vintage, but do you ever see lab-grown diamonds? Suzanne: I think the secondary market for lab grown diamonds hasn't really hit yet because they've only been super popular in the marketplace for three years. That's about it. And their prices have already plummeted on the retail marketplace. It's not something we would ever buy because they're not old, but it is something that we have to be careful of, and I think people have to be careful of. I have heard of jewelers that are buying low quality synthetic diamonds. They're buying a round brilliant and they're recutting it to European standard because they have inclusions and might have some off color, then they're putting them in an old mounting. People that buy scrap end up with lots and lots of mountings, and sometimes they just resell them on the secondary market through dealers. So, here you have the possibility of someone setting a synthetic diamond recut as an antique diamond into an old mounting, so buyer beware. That's one of my dilemmas, too, that I have to be very careful about. I would never want to buy that. That's when the microscope comes in handy, and that's when we use outside laboratories like the Gemological Institute of America to check the stones before we buy them, just to make sure they are correct. In our laboratory, we don't have all the equipment necessary to confirm that it is 100% synthetic or not. We have separation techniques, but a larger laboratory is able to do a lot more than we can. Sharon: A lot of these lab-grown diamonds have inscriptions and numbers or something that identifies it. Do you look for anything like that? Suzanne: If the GIA has looked at that diamond, they always inscribe them. But a diamond cutter can polish that off in a matter of 10 minutes. If you do see it, great, but it's not something that we've even seen. We don't buy round brilliant-cut diamonds. We've never bought round brilliant-cut diamonds. That's not what we buy and sell. Because we specialize in the older ones, like I said, I'm very careful about what I buy and I'm on the lookout for these supposed recuts. We know they're out there for smaller diamonds because we see them in reproductions, the European cuts and single cuts. Primarily the European cuts are cut with what we call an open culet. Instead of coming to a point on the bottom, they have a facet there, and the facets in the contemporary cuts for small diamonds have a really big open facet. That's a generalization, but it's one of those things. If you see all the other characteristics that make you think it's not an old ring and you see those stones and they're perfectly calibrated, you can kind of say, “Yes, that's a reproduction, and this is why.” Sharon: Do you or people who work at the store go out to trade shows or antique jewelry shows and look for merchandise to resell? Suzanne: That's one of the things I do. Most of the jewelry that we buy and sell comes right in our door. People send me a picture of it and we strike up a conversation, and they mail it to us or send it FedEx or however we decide they're going to ship it for our consideration so we can see it in person. I do not buy anything unless I see it in person. Another really good reason to go to trade shows is to do price research. I go to Tucson Gem and Mineral Show every year because the prices and availability of different gems change. It changes from year to year, and if you're buying a beautiful old sapphire, you want to make sure you're paying the right price for it, especially today as prices have gone up significantly, especially in emeralds, rubies and sapphires. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why working with jewelry designers is part business, part therapy. Why the jewelry industry is picking up its pace to match the fashion industry, and why this trend might backfire. Why customer feedback on comfort and wearability is essential for jewelry brands. How Lionel defines success for his jewelry clients. What caused so many fashion houses to develop fine jewelry lines in the last few years, and what this trend means for the industry.  About Lionel Geneste Lionel Geneste is a fashion and luxury industry veteran, having worked for John Hardy, Givenchy, Catherine Malandrino and Randolph Duke in various capacities, from global marketing to communications and merchandising. He is also the founder of the gift-giving service b.Sophisticated. Born in Tehran to French parents, Geneste grew up as a modern nomad: Cairo, Istanbul, Lagos, Beirut, Paris are just a few places he once called home. And so he acquired an eclectic eye, at an early age, for the refined and urbane—only further encouraged by his clotheshorse mother and her like-minded friends. Additional Resources Website Instagram Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does an independent jewelry brand get noticed? For some lucky jewelers, the secret is Lionel Geneste. Lionel is a jewelry strategist and advisor who has launched iconic brands, shown new collections at Paris couture week, and gotten small jewelry artists into top stores. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the jewelry industry compares to the fashion industry; the trends, opportunities and challenges jewelers are facing today; and how he chooses his clients (and why he has to believe in their work). Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, I'm talking with Lionel Geneste. He's an independent strategist in the jewelry industry. He does this after 15 years in fashion, so he knows fashion and jewelry. Welcome back. Let's say people haven't seen the lines of these jewels or the independent jewelers that you represent. Do they say, “Oh, I haven't seen this. I want it for my store”? Lionel: Right. They do that. Everybody has access to everything pretty much now, with Instagram or even stores posting on their websites. I tend to have a collection or a certain number of pieces with me, and then I distribute it amongst the stores I work with. I still give the list of everything I have within the U.S. So, if a client has seen something and it's not within their store, I will send it to them to present to the client. It's very interesting. Once the client knows the brand, they really go for it. They dig into the Instagram to see other pieces. I think you have to be very fluid and flexible, and you have to be able to move around your jewelry if you want to accommodate your plan. Sharon: What are the first things you advise people, your new clients, on? Is it to get involved with social media? Lionel: I know we all hear the stories of people selling off Instagram. I think the brick and mortar is still—at a certain level, we're talking about jewelry. It's different below $8,000. It's very rare when someone buys it from a website. Even a website like Moda Operandi, for example, if there is a piece— Sharon: Which one? Lionel: Moda Operandi. It's a website that was launched on the idea of doing trunk shows on there. For example, they will very often ask for the piece to be sent so they can show it to their clients. It's rare that they buy it directly off the website. I think for pieces that are $500 to $2,000, maybe $3,000, but above a certain price, the clients want to see it, feel it. Sharon: And touch it. When you look for new clients, what do you look for? What would you consider new? Would you consider if the way they make it is new? Lionel: There are there a few things. If I take them, for example, Mike Joseph is very interesting. He has great technique. The jewelry is going to be well made. He made this entire collection of flowers in titanium, but he used the reverse side of titanium to have it as a matte finish, as opposed to a very glossy one. I think with this collection, when he was at couture, he won two prizes. So, I think he is both innovative and has great technique. Vishal, I like his take on traditional Indian jewelry, which has a lot of gold and stones, but he makes it much more sleek. The thing is not to see the metal. I don't know if you're familiar with the portrait cut. Sharon: No, I'm not. Lionel: The portrait cut is a slab of diamond. It's the Maharaja who built the Taj Mahal who actually asked his jeweler to do this type of slab of diamonds to put on top of their portraits so it would bring a shine to the miniature. So, it's a technique, and Vishal does rings and earrings. I think that's an interesting new way. I'm always looking for people who bring something new to the table. Sharon: You mentioned the perspective. How could their perspective be new? When you talk to other art jewelers, sometimes you look at a piece and it looks normal, then they tell you the stories behind it and you understand it better. Lionel: True. You can always try to understand the story. When you see Vishal make some of these pieces, I think you almost don't need the explanation. You see that there is something new there. I'm not saying it's wrong to try to have the story behind it, but I kind of like when—I've had numerous jewelers come in. They're coming to me and showing me things, and the thing I hear the most is, “I couldn't find this on the market.” And I look at the pieces, and I'm like, “I can bring you in 10 stores when there's exactly the same thing.” And I think, “No.” Sharon: So it's their technique with the materials they use. Lionel: The technique, the material, the inspiration. With Vishal it's the reinterpretation of traditional Indian jewelry, but it's still very modern and light. Sylvie has more inspiration from literature or drawings. She goes to museums to find her inspiration. Sharon: I was just thinking, do you represent people who are goldsmiths themselves making the jewelry, as opposed to them designing it and they have a goldsmith make it? Lionel: Mike and Vishal have their own factories, so they are really following from the beginning, from the start. Sylvie has an atelier. She draws. Sharon: Were you a maker of jewelry? Lionel: No. Never. I've always liked jewelry, but I was never a jewelry maker. Sharon: Have you learned over the years how something is made? Lionel: Yes. I've learned more about the stones. I've learned more about the techniques. It's important to sell something, as you said earlier, to bring the most information. People are really curious today about how it's made and the story behind it. Sharon: No matter who your client is, are they interested in the way it's made? Do they ask you questions? Lionel: There are different profiles. People who just respond to the look of it are not curious, and it depends on the jewelry itself. With Vishal, because of this new way and this new cut of diamond, people are asking. It's always interesting to get the background on it because there is a new historical background. Mike, for example, with his flowers connection, people were really intrigued by the use of titanium and how it was not used traditionally. So, yes, you get questions on that. Sharon: How often do you see something new that you haven't seen before? Is it once a year? Lionel: It's rare, actually, when you see people who are bringing something really new, a new proposal. Some people are doing stuff in a great way. Not everything has to be groundbreaking, and I get that. I go to couture every year, so I kind of scout, but just for myself. I like to see what's going on. That's not where I'm going to have a new client or anything. It's interesting to me to see what's new. Sometimes I see someone, and I refer them to all the stores, saying, “You should go and see that brand. It's really cool. It's new.” Sharon: Do you advise a store to go look at the different jewelry? Lionel: Yeah, I would, even if I don't work with them. I think stores appreciate that I do that. I think the one thing I'm known for is taking on brands that are different and unique. When I point out someone that I think is great, they will listen. Sharon: Do you only work with people who work in gold or emeralds? You mentioned John Hardy. He only works in silver. Lionel: No. For John Hardy, I went for the one-of-a-kind collection that was very stone oriented. No, I don't. The next big thing I did, I worked with Hearts on Fire, which was kind of relaunching and just hired a new designer. That was very interesting, to work with a big company. The idea of bringing this new designer on and kind of starting from scratch was an interesting thing. We worked on opening different stores and more classic, more bridal. That was an interesting strategy to implement. Sharon: Did you advise them of a designer or did you walk in and they introduced you to a new designer? Lionel: They already had the designer in mind, so we looked at the collection. They asked me about their archive and what I thought they should bring back on. I think my background with fashion and jewelry always interests people because they know I still have a foot in the fashion industry in a way. Sharon: If somebody is in the fashion industry now, can they segue?  How can they segue to doing what you're doing if they got tired of fashion? Lionel: I think I know people who did the transition from fashion to jewelry. In the end, it's the same actors. In the press and the stores, it's the same people, except for the jewelry stores. But if you talk about all the concept stores that carry jewelry as well, it's easy to do. It's the same work, basically. Sharon: So, they wouldn't be getting away from that. Do you do pop-ups? They have become popular here. Lionel: They do. I don't necessarily do pop-ups. They call it differently. For example, Vishal did something at Bergdorf called the Residency. We were in for three months, and it was very successful. It is now going to be permanent for Vishal. We'll be at Bergdorf all the time. I think the model of trunk shows is a bit overused. It's kind of difficult to make typical trunk shows today. Again, in a certain world, once you're at a certain price point, some stores are doing a lot of them, and it's the same people that you're soliciting over and over. There's only so much you can do. Sharon: With Vishal, what do you consider successful? You said he was successful in this residency. Was that Vishal? Lionel: Vishal. The brand is called VAK. Sharon: What was successful? What was the purpose of the residency? Lionel: The jewelry is very well-made. It's a beautiful product and not terribly expensive. I think the proposal is that the value is great, and it was new. It's a new look. The salespeople were excited about it, and I think they really reached out to their clients. That's what made it successful in the end. Sharon: You say now he's there permanently. Lionel: Yes. Sharon: He has what, a cabinet? Lionel: Yeah, a vitrine. There's a vitrine now in the salon. Sharon: Do you ever have to pay to have prominence? Lionel: No. Sharon: What are your favorite things to sell? Lionel: I like two things. I like rings, and I like earrings. Sylvie Corbelin has a quote that I always liked. She'll say that earrings are a gift for the other. You don't see it on yourself, but it's the people who see you, see the earrings. My mother, for example, would never go out without earrings. She would put on a pair of earrings to match, and it was for her to feel dressed. She didn't feel that she was dressed if she was not wearing earrings. And I like big cocktail rings. Sharon: What kind of jewelry do you like for men? Do you like bracelets or necklaces? Lionel: I do like bracelets for men or a nice pinky ring, I guess. Sharon: I was surprised. I went out to lunch with somebody who had what I consider a fabulous necklace, but I would never consider it for a man. He got so many comments on it. Lionel: I'm sure. A lot of guys now are buying diamond pieces. I think there's a way to wear it that's chic. Sharon: How long have you been in the jewelry business? Lionel: 18 years. Sharon: It's a long time. What changes have you seen over that time? Lionel: A lot of jewelry coming. A lot more jewelry. Sharon: Really? Lionel: Yeah. You see all the brands. Now the big trend—I was just saying yesterday, Prada is launching fine jewelry. Saint Laurent has launched fine jewelry. There's Dolce & Gabbana, Gucci. Everybody's betting on jewelry being the moneymaker. I think the biggest growth we can see right now is men's. Men are buying jewelry. Sharon: Would you say there are a lot more independent jewelers today than there were? Lionel: Not only independent, but also all the houses are launching their own lines. Clothing houses, like Prada is launching a line. Saint Laurent is launching a line. Dior did it 20 years ago, but everybody's hopping on the jewelry train. Sharon: Why do you think that is? Lionel: I think there is a real interest again for jewelry. A wider interest than just buying, but as an investment. I think also during Covid, jewelry kind of proved to be Covid-proof. I think a lot of people got the idea that jewelry was the next big thing, because it's true that 2021 was an extraordinary year for jewelry. However, I don't think it's really a trend. I think it was at the moment, and we've seen since that the numbers have been down. The money that women would put in clothes and handbags and shoes, they were not going out, so that money went to jewelry, which was great. But I think it was instant. It was not necessarily a trend. Sharon: Did your business go up because of Covid? Lionel: Huge. We saw a huge difference. Sharon And you've seen it go down or be flat? Lionel: Go down and then flat. But go down, definitely. Sharon: When you take on new clients, do they have to be making a certain amount? What do they have to have? What criteria do you use? Lionel: Well, yes, I make sure they have enough finance to launch a business and to make it start. First of all, you need to have at least three or four years in front of you. There's no instant success. However, I'm always conservative in their growth. I'm not going to ask them to put out a lot of pieces. I think it's always about opening two or three key stores that are generating enough buzz as marketing, if you will, to help grow. But try not to overflow the market. Sharon: What if they're independent and making things you usually don't represent, but you think there's something there, an innovation or a passion? Maybe they make pieces that sell for $3,000 or $5,000. That's their niche. Would you take somebody like them on? Lionel: Yeah, I do. All the jewelers I work with, the price point starts at $5,000, $6,000. Sharon: I won't even ask you how much it goes up to. Thank you so much for being here today. Lionel: Thank you. Sharon: I feel like I roped you in from a plane ride or something. Lionel: No, no. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.  Sharon: Thank you for being here.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why working with jewelry designers is part business, part therapy. Why the jewelry industry is picking up its pace to match the fashion industry, and why this trend might backfire. Why customer feedback on comfort and wearability is essential for jewelry brands. How Lionel defines success for his jewelry clients. What caused so many fashion houses to develop fine jewelry lines in the last few years, and what this trend means for the industry.  About Lionel Geneste Lionel Geneste is a fashion and luxury industry veteran, having worked for John Hardy, Givenchy, Catherine Malandrino and Randolph Duke in various capacities, from global marketing to communications and merchandising. He is also the founder of the gift-giving service b.Sophisticated. Born in Tehran to French parents, Geneste grew up as a modern nomad: Cairo, Istanbul, Lagos, Beirut, Paris are just a few places he once called home. And so he acquired an eclectic eye, at an early age, for the refined and urbane—only further encouraged by his clotheshorse mother and her like-minded friends. Additional Resources Website Instagram     Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does an independent jewelry brand get noticed? For some lucky jewelers, the secret is Lionel Geneste. Lionel is a jewelry strategist and advisor who has launched iconic brands, shown new collections at Paris couture week, and gotten small jewelry artists into top stores. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the jewelry industry compares to the fashion industry; the trends, opportunities and challenges jewelers are facing today; and how he chooses his clients (and why he has to believe in their work). Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, I'm talking with Lionel Geneste. He's an independent strategist in the jewelry industry. He does this after 15 years in fashion, so he knows fashion and jewelry. He's multi-lingual, and he represents many people abroad in the U.S., which is very, very unusual. In fact, I met him through an independent jeweler, and I thought he had such an interesting background I wanted to talk to him more. Lionel, welcome to the program. Lionel: Sharon, good morning. Thank you for having me. Sharon: I'm really glad to have you. How did you come into this business? Lionel: Well, I was in the fashion industry, then a friend of mine was taking over John Hardy. We're talking about 2006 or 2007. They were launching a one-of-a-kind collection, and they brought me on board to launch that collection and to develop it and then basically to do all the PR for John Hardy in general. Sharon: I'm not familiar with John Hardy. Is it fashion? Go ahead. Lionel: John Hardy is this company that does mostly silver. They're based in Bali. All their ateliers are in Bali and they have a big office in New York. John Hardy himself wanted to do a collection for his wife, which would be only one of a kind. That's when we started that collection called Cinta, which means love in Balinese. People were noticing these rings, and the people from Neiman Marcus noticed them and asked if we could develop them into a full collection, which we did. I'd been more in fashion, in the couture world, and I thought I could do something. Basically, the ladies that were willing to wait for four months for a dress are also willing to have one-of-a-kind jewelry or even preorder them. Sharon: You know, when you tell me who it is, I remember who John Hardy is, but I haven't seen his jewelry for a while. It's around. So, those are your clients? Are they mostly women? Do you represent any men? Lionel: Yeah. These were the clients. The idea at the beginning, when I developed it, is I would do dinners in Paris during the couture shows, and we would present the jewelry. That was pretty much how it all started. If you look at it now, all the jewelry houses are doing presentations during the couture shows. A couple of weeks ago it was in Paris and everybody from Boucheron, Dior etc., presented their collection.  It's on the same calendar. From then on, when I left John Hardy, I started a company with a business partner. The idea was that we were giving our clients not only the PR aspect and marketing, but also the business, because I was well versed in the business side as well. It was a kind of a one stop shop. Sharon: I'm not familiar with the couture shows. Does the jewelry have a separate presentation? Lionel: Yeah. The couture shows, it's like when the houses like Valentino, Dior, Chanel, it's all their shows that are only one of a kind. There are very strict rules that are enacted by the Chambre de Commerce in Paris. You have to have a number of atelier, you have to have a number of people working in the atelier, it's all handmade, etc. There was a parallel with the ladies buying those clothes that are much more expensive than ready to wear and the jewelry industry, and I think everybody made the same link between those. Now, these shows are every year in January and July. The houses like Boucheron, Chanel, Chaumet, all of them hold presentations and invite the press, but also invite clients at the same time. Sharon: So, they show their most expensive jewelry. Lionel: Yes. It's really the high jewelry collections that are shown there. Sharon: Is there somebody showing them, presenting them, or is it just come and look and see? Lionel: No, they are usually elaborate with more and more, actually. Everything is an experience. More and more they're doing elaborate dinners. For example, Boucheron at the Place Vendôme has dedicated the last floor to a big dining room, and there's also a suite. The best clients can come stay at Boucheron and stay in the building. The view on Place Vendôme is beautiful. So, now it's more a presentation with the designer himself or herself inviting their best customer, or hoping to get the best customer. Sharon: Do you invite these customers? Lionel: I used to do that a lot. I haven't done it in a year. Usually, I work with younger designers or independent and smaller designers, so I don't have the same budget. But usually what I do is I find a new, typical French bistro. I used to do it the night before the shows to make it something very informal, but still presenting the collection in a different format. Sharon: Is that how people found you? They come to these dinners? Lionel: When we talk about clients, there are two different kinds of clients. There are my clients who are the jewelers that I represent, and then I'm talking about clients who are the people who buy the jewelry. Basically, it's word of mouth. When I work with jewelers, some stores recommend me to other brands. Some clients know about someone who's launching a new brand and they refer me. That's really where I enter the competition. I make a proposal, and it's more about that and referrals. Sharon: Do you advise the high-end buyers of jewelry? Do you advise them? You say you have two kinds of clients. Lionel: Yeah, I have some clients that are collectors. Not everyone is always looking for newness or paying attention to that. So, yes, I do advise them on what I think is a young designer that's upcoming, and if they're serious about their collection, I think they should have a piece of that person in their collection. I launched Emmanuel Tarpin, for example, and at the time everybody wanted his earrings to be part of their collection. Sharon: Who did you say? Lionel: Emmanuel Tarpin. He's been having a lot of press lately. He's launched a collection of orchids. I don't work with them anymore, but I launched him at the beginning. Sharon: Do you have to like the people that you work with? Lionel: Absolutely. I do have to like the product. I couldn't sell something that I don't believe in. Sharon: Do you ever work with men? Do they come to you for advice? Lionel: They do. However, I find most men—no, I do, actually. I have some men that come, or they are strongly recommended by their wives. A lot of my clients are women who buy for themselves. Sharon: Okay, so they find out about you through word of mouth, or do you advertise? Lionel: But also, I do work with stores. Some of my jewelers are in stores such as Just One Eye in Los Angeles, Cayen in Carmel, Mayfair Rocks in East Hampton. I choose strategically the partnerships and in places where I know we're going to find the right client. Sharon: I bet your clients, they're abroad and you represent them in the states. Lionel: Yes. Some of them I represent worldwide. I represent them also in Europe, in London and Paris.  At the moment for my clients, I work with Sylvie Corbelin. That's how we met, you and I. Sylvie is based in Paris. I work with a brand that's new-ish called Mike Joseph, and it was a big success at couture last year. He is based in Bangkok. Then I represent Vishal Anil Kothari, who is based in Mumbai. It's kind of a take on traditional Indian jewelry but with a much lighter frame. They use portrait-cut diamonds, emeralds. Sharon: Do people find out about you? It seems like everybody is not finding out about you through shows or their friends. Lionel: You know, friends, clients, stores, owners. They see how I work with them and recommend me to other people. I have younger friends in the industry that just started their business and ask me for advice. They recommend me or hire me. Sharon: You travel a lot because you have addresses in New York, L.A., Paris. Lionel: I was based in New York for 20 years. I moved to L.A. six years ago. I still go to New York quite often. Sharon: But you were born in Paris or in France? Lionel: I'm French. My parents traveled a lot, so I was born a bit by accident in Tehran, in Iran. But I'm French. I studied in France. Sharon: Do you feel stretched? When I try and get hold of you, I wonder where in the world you're going to be reading this or calling from. Lionel: No, I like traveling. I think it's interesting. I find it very interesting to meet the clients. You were asking me earlier about feedback and if I give the designer I work with advice. I don't give them advice. I think they all have a strong point of view and they are not influenced by trends. However, I do give them feedback from clients. I think it's always interesting to see. Do they find the jewelry comfortable? Are the earrings too heavy? It's always interesting to see. When you work for a designer, for a woman like Sylvie, Sylvie wears her own jewelry, so she knows if it's comfortable or not. That's always interesting. Mike Joseph tells me that he always has his sister try jewelry on and even live in it for a few days before he puts it in production. Sharon: Do they tell you if it's too heavy? Lionel: Sometimes they do. They do give feedback. Yesterday we were presenting some new sketches to a store, and some stones were kind of sticking out. The first question the store manager asked was, “Is it going to snag clothes?” The answer is they had to remake that and polish the edges so it would not catch on clothes. Sharon: You were presenting sketches of the jewelry? Lionel: Yes. I was showing jewelry to a store, showing the new collection. Kind of a preview of what we're going to do for couture. I wanted to get a sense. It's always interesting. You were asking me when I take on the client, do I have to like it? I do have to like it, but I also usually show it to one or two editors that I trust or a few store owners to see what their reaction is to it as well. It can't be only my personal things, so it's always interesting to hear what other people have said. Sharon: Do magazine fashion editors come to you to find jewelry? Lionel: Yes, they do. They'll ask me what I have, if I have anything new and interesting. I do like to work with more individuals. I always try to bring something interesting. You were asking how I choose the designers I work with. It's difficult today to find people who really bring something new, so I'm always looking for that. Someone who has already come up with a new invention or brings something to the world of jewelry. Sharon: Do you work with them to expand? They're independent and they grow. Do you help them when they launch a chain? Do they outgrow you, let's say? Lionel: No, and I actually, I do like that. I like to be at the beginning, helping them find everything from their voice, how to place themselves, where to place them within the market, price point. What exists already on the market? After I work with them for five or six years, and if they really grow, I like to push them out and hire a real agent.  In general, the brands I work with, we try to keep it exclusive, to not have it in every store. It's very organic. We're not pushing. With strategy, I prefer to go within stores where you're going in what we call deep, like bringing 15 to 20 pieces to really show the depth of the work of the designer, rather than just five or six pieces just to have a presence, which to me doesn't really serve the purpose. Sharon: Do you advise the jewelry stores you're bringing jewelry to on how to display it or things like that? Lionel: Yeah. Some stores have a strong vision about how to do it, but yes, I will. I would ask them to take on some pieces that I find are really representative of the work, and if the pieces are not there I think it doesn't give the right image of the designer. I would try to push, even if they could be slightly reluctant in the beginning. I think some key pieces are important. Going back to Sylvie, snakes are an important part of her design. If I go into a store, I need to have some of these pieces because they're an important symbol of hers. Sharon: So, you would advise the store owner how to show it off, how to get it right. Lionel: Yes. Right. Sharon: What skills do you think you need to be successful? If somebody wants to do what you do, how would they be successful? Lionel: When you work with designers, it's part business, part therapy. I think you really have to listen to them. That's the important part, because you can't be totally at odds with what they're feeling and pushing for something they don't believe in. It's a dance, and it's about listening to each other. I think the relationship with the designer is really what makes it successful. Mike Joseph, Vishal, Sylvie, we've been working together for eight years, so we know each other really well now. I think that's important. Sharon: When you said therapist, what does the therapy involve? Lionel: Designers, or the good designers, are really artists. You have to listen to what they're saying, what they feel. You have to be careful about bringing the commercial part in. You also have to respect what they're designing. So, it's a dance. Sometimes a feeling of rejection can exist, so you have to work with that as well. Sharon: You were in fashion first. What kind of experience does someone in fashion have to have to go into jewelry? Lionel: It's little bit the same world, I think. You have to have a sense of aesthetics, and you have to like it as well. You don't go into jewelry if you don't like jewelry. But the transition from fashion to jewelry is pretty seamless. Sharon: Do you see a difference in the fashion world and the jewelry world? Lionel: I think there used to be a bigger difference in the sense that fashion was very fast-paced and jewelry was not. But I think jewelry is getting into that pace as well, where the designer wants to present two collections a year. So, we're getting a bit on the fashion calendar in that sense. Sharon: The jewelers, if they have a presentation, I have a visual picture of them lugging their cases and setting up. Lionel: Right. I think now people are presenting two collections a year. That used to be a fashion thing. I'm not sure it's the way to go. I don't think you sell jewelry in the same way you sell clothes. It takes more time. I've witnessed clients being disappointed because there was a collection they liked, and then the collection is gone. I think that doesn't leave enough time for people to act upon something they don't necessarily want to buy within a month or two. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: What to expect at the second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and tips for attending. How Portugal's 48-year authoritarian regime and the Carnation Revolution continue to influence Portuguese artists and jewelers today. Why jewelry is so closely linked to power and politics. How artists can use masterclasses and workshops to refocus their work. How Marta is working to promote Portugal's art jewelry scene.   About Marta Costa Reis Marta Costa Reis started studying jewelry in 2004, as a hobby, in parallel with other professional activities. She dedicated herself fully to this work in 2014. Costa Reis completed the jewelry course at Ar.Co – Centro de Arte e Comunicacção Visual, in Lisbon, and the Advanced Visual Arts Course at the same school, in addition to workshops with renowned teachers including Iris Eichenberg, Ruudt Peters, Lisa Walker, and Eija Mustonen, among others. In addition to being a jewelry artist, Costa Reis teaches jewelry history at Ar.Co, writes about jewelry, and curates exhibitions. She also serves as artistic director of the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and as a board member of Art Jewelry Forum. Additional Resources: Marta's Website Marta's Instagram   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does jewelry symbolize power, and where do jewelry and politics intersect? That's the central question that Marta Costa Reis and her fellow curators, artists and speakers will explore at this year's Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. Marta joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why this year's theme is so timely; how Portugal's turbulent political history influences jewelry today; and how to plan your trip to make the most of the biennial. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, we're going to be talking about the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I am talking with Marta Costa Reis, who is going to tell us all about it. Welcome back.   Sharon: Are you a maker?   Marta: I am a maker.   Sharon: Have you been developing jewelry that's linked to power?   Marta: Actually, not so much. My themes are a bit more, maybe spiritual is the word. I don't know. I'm interested in themes that revolve around time and our connection to time and what is behind us. It's quite different, but this was already the theme of the first biennial. We have to move on and have different themes. Of course, I couldn't do work myself for this biennial. I don't have the time or the mindset to be making at this time. I'm fully focused on the biennial.   Sharon: I was noticing you have several curators. How did you choose the curators of different seminars and exhibits? How did you choose them?   Marta: I can speak, for instance, about the main show that is called Madrugada, daybreak. The main title. I wanted someone that was not a Portuguese person so we don't stay too closed in our own bubble. I wanted someone from another country but who could understand what happened here. Mònica Gaspar is Spanish. Besides being an amazing intellectual and teacher and writer and very knowledgeable about jewelry and design, being Spanish, they had a similar process as ours. They also had a very long dictatorship, and at almost the same time as we did, they became a democracy. So, she could understand more or less the same events. That was important, to have someone with that experience of changing from the dictatorship into a democracy.    We spoke last year Schmuck in Munich about it, and she was interested, but she has a lot of work, so it took a little while to convince her. It's because we are a team and we can share the work that were able to do it and Mònica is able to do it. Patrícia Domingues is the other curator. She's Portuguese, but she's younger than we are.   Sharon: Who is that?   Marta: Patrícia Domingues. She recently had a show in Brooklyn. I can write it down for you later, maybe afterwards.   Sharon: Okay. Patrícia. How do you spell the last name?   Marta: Domingues, D-O-M-I-N-G-U-E-S. I think I got it right. I know how to spell it, but sometimes saying it in English is more difficult. She has been living abroad for a quite a long time, but she's Portuguese, so she has a perspective that is both an insider but also an outsider. I wanted that very much, someone that is not closed here in our little bubble. She's she recently finished a Ph.D. She's younger. She's very much in contact with everything that is being reflected about jewelry in the world right now.    I think they are amazing curators, and they bring a lot to the biennial and to the show. I am there as well not only because I enjoy it, but I wanted to help out with the work, sending the invitations and keeping track of everything so that everything goes smoothly. We are a very small organization, and we do a lot of it ourselves on a voluntary basis. We have to take different jobs in this process. But I'm happy they joined us, and I'm very happy to be working with them on this show.   Sharon: Are you the main curator? Is there a main curator who chose the other ones?   Marta: Yes, that is me. I am the main curator for the whole biennial. Then there is a team and we discuss. We basically invited Mònica and Patrícia and they agreed. The other shows, for instance, the tiara show is curated by Catarina Silva, who is also the head of the jewelry department at ARCO. I'm also taking care of, it's called Jewels for Democracy. That's the show that I mentioned about the women being honored. There's a lot of people involved, but it's quite smooth.   Sharon: Somebody has to keep everything moving and coordinate. How are you promoting the show in Portugal and in general? Anything?   Marta: We will start promoting now. We have the two shows in April. We did the launch last November for the whole biennial. We try to be active on Instagram. Not so much on Facebook, but mainly on Instagram. We will start a more intense campaign. We have a professional communications person that will take care of this. We will start a more intense communication campaign very soon. We have it in two parts, so we are focusing on April. Then we'll have the other show in May, and then it's the end of June. It will be in different parts.    We will also announce the masterclasses very soon. I haven't mentioned the masterclasses yet. That's what I was forgetting. There will be two masterclasses, one with Lin Cheung and one with Manuel Vilhena from the 22nd to 26th of June. We'll open the registrations very, very soon. This week we'll open the registration. You'll start seeing more about it, and we will promote it in different venues. I did an interview for SMCK Magazine, the European magazine about jewelry. It just came out in their last issue. I did it in October or at the end of September, but it just came out. So, we're doing a number of things, but it will become more intense at the end of this month, in February. We will reinforce the communication and the advertising.    Sharon: How long are the shows in the biennial? Does it go through the summer, or is there an ending point or beginning point?   Marta: The main thing is that in the last week of June, everything will be open. The shows in the Royal Treasure Museum, the shows at the Design Museum, the colloquium, the schools, the masterclasses, the students, the galleries. Everything will be open in that last week of June. That will be the right moment to come to Lisbon. That's when we are concentrating everything. On the 30th of June, the two shows at the Royal Treasure Museum will close, but the show at MUDE, the Design Museum, will continue until the end of September, so it will go through the summer.   Sharon: Why do you call it a masterclass? Who's teaching it and what are they teaching?   Marta: It's Lin Cheung. She's from the UK. Manuel Vilhena is a quite well-known Portuguese artist and amazing teacher as well. It's five days. I'm not sure how to differentiate between a workshop and a masterclass, which I guess is a workshop with the masters, and they are masters. They are some of the top teachers I know. I did a small course with Manuel Vilhena a few years ago. Not yet with Lin, but I know they are amazing teachers. I'm sure everyone who comes will enjoy it.    Last biennial, we also had masterclasses, one with Caroline Broadhead and the other with Christoph Zellweger. They are very interesting moments of sharing and learning and deepening your understanding of your own work, not just for students but for artists in every moment of their careers. It's super interesting to be able to have these few days to stop and look at what you do, what you want to do next with very good teachers like they are. This can be a very special moment. For a long time, I did as many workshops and masterclasses as I could, and it was so great.   Sharon: The people who teach the classes, do they vet the people coming, or can anybody who wants to come into the class and take it?   Marta: There is a small vetting process, but basically you send a CV and your motivation, not even a letter, but a few words of why you want to do these classes. That will be the vetting process. But it's pretty much open to everyone in every stage of their education or career.   Sharon: The exhibits and going to galleries, are there charges? Are they free? What is the story with that?   Marta: To visit the galleries, some of the venues will be free. The museums have tickets, but most of the venues that are not museums are free.   Sharon: MUDE is the design museum that just opened.   Marta: Yes. It opened a while ago, but it was under renovation for a long time. It's the only museum in Portugal that has a contemporary jewelry collection. They have been building a collection, and hopefully it will grow. They also have lots of fashion and all kinds of product and graphic design. It's a very interesting collection, very interesting building. They haven't opened yet. We will be one of the first shows. The first temporary show after the renovation will be this one.    Sharon: Wow.    Marta: Yeah, it's exciting.   Sharon: Do you think there'll be a triennial?   Marta: Hopefully we'll do the next one. I have a few ideas. I cannot say yet, but yes. I like to start thinking about the next one while still doing this one. If the team wants to, if we get the support we need, for sure there will be another one.   Sharon: Now for somebody who wants—I started thinking of myself and other people, but members of the audience, if there somebody who wants to come alone, who wants to come to Portugal alone to see the exhibit, where do they stay? You said the end of June is the best time to come.   Marta: The last week of June, yes.   Sharon: Okay, and they stay at a hotel?   Marta: Lisbon is a wonderful, very safe and, I think, easy to navigate town. We don't have a special hotel to recommend, but you can reach out to us and we can help give some suggestions. Stay in a hotel, you will get your program, tell us you are coming. We will try as much as possible to help you out. If you want to organize a group, we can help organize the group as well. But it's easy. Uber goes everywhere, taxis go everywhere, you have the subway, you have buses, you can walk, bike. There are all kinds of ways to travel in town. It's not very big. We're not always able to do it, but many of the events, the venues, will be quite close. There will be a few groups in different locations, but you can visit a lot of things by foot that will be very close by. I think it will be very easy to come even if you're alone.   Sharon: Okay. As long as I have you, tell us about the market for art jewelry in Portugal. Has it grown? Do people care about it?   Marta: I think like almost everywhere else, it's a specialist market that certain people enjoy a lot. Actually, it's not very known by everyone. Most people, when you say jewelry, think about more traditional, more commercial jewelry. Like everywhere, there's a way to go, I think. But there is a group of interested people. There's certainly very interesting artists.    We've had contemporary jewelry, art jewelry being done and presented in shows here since the 60s. We've had a school, the specialized school in Lisbon, since the 70s. We have two galleries. One of them just turned 25. The other I think even more, maybe 30. So, we have had the market for a long time. Now, of course, it's a little bit slow, but I think that happened everywhere with the recent crisis. But it exists, and it's been here for over 40 years, 50 years now. Like everywhere else, it's a continuous work, but people love it. Many people love it. I think it will never stop being interesting and important to a number of us.   Sharon: Okay. Go ahead, if there's anything else you wanted to say.   Marta: About the market, that's basically it. It's an issue, and also what we wanted to promote. That's why we did the biennial, to help people see there's a lot more jewelry than the ones they're used to in the traditional way. That's part of the reason we're doing this, not just for ourselves or the ones who already know what jewelry content actually is all about, but for the ones who don't and might be interested in knowing. Getting the beautiful works that are done out there and reaching out to more people, that's it.   Sharon: Okay. I'm trying to read my handwriting here. I was reading your information last night again, but let's see. The cost, the people and most of the stuff is in English as well as Portuguese.   Marta: Yes, everything will be translated. The colloquium will be in English. Everyone will speak English at the colloquium, and in the museums you will have English. Everything will be translated. Our website is translated. Our Instagram, not all is translated, but because it translates automatically, it's not even an issue anymore, I think. But yes, usually you will always have Portuguese and English, except the colloquium that will be fully in English. It will be quite easy for everyone. English is indeed the common language for almost everything, so we just assume. In Portugal everyone speaks English more or less.   Sharon: Do they learn it in school?   Marta: Yes, yes. In school, movies. The movies are not dubbed. They are in the original English, so we are used to listening to English from when we are very young. It becomes a very common language.   Sharon: That's interesting. We'll have the Instagram and the website listed when we post this.   Marta: Okay, great. Going back, if people want to travel to Lisbon, if they by chance come before June, they will still have very interesting things to see besides the program of the biennial. There are the galleries that will have shows in Lisbon. There's Galeria Reverso and Galeria Tereza Seabra. They both will have shows as they usually have. In April and May, if you visit Portugal, come, because there will be jewelry to be seen. If you plan to come for the biennial, June is a very exciting month. The city is beautiful. It's when there are flowers, there's green, there's the sun. People are just happy in June, everywhere I guess.   Sharon: How is the weather then? Is it hot?   Marta: No, it's warm. June is still quite good. End of July, August is maybe a bit too much, but June usually is still quite good. I won't say the number because I would say it in Celsius so it doesn't mean anything, and I don't know how to say it in Fahrenheit. I won't say a number for the temperature, but it's really nice. The best thing is that the evenings are warm. That's the best, when in the evening it's still warm and it's nice outside. That's June.   Sharon: Are there a lot of people in the streets still when it's warm outside and warm in the evenings? I know you don't live in the center.   Marta: Yes, people will go out. As I said, in June you have traditional parties. The patron saint of Lisbon, his day is in June. From there, you have many, many parties. People go outside, they will eat outside. There will be concerts outside, there will be movies outside, everything will be outside and it will be very nice.   Sharon: I hope that we can all go. I have here the official name is the Second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial, right?   Marta: Exactly.   Sharon: What is the theme once more again?   Marta: The theme is political jewelry and jewelry of power.   Sharon: Okay. And PIN is involved with this also? PIN is the art jewelry—   Marta: PIN is the Portuguese Contemporary Jewelry Association, and it's the organizer of the biennial.    Sharon: Reading through this information I was ready to book my flight. It looks wonderful.   Marta: Yes. I'm happy you come. But surely, if people want to come, reach out to us. If you write to us through Instagram, the website, it will be easy to reach out to us, and we will help in any way. If you want to come, we can help make it happen in the easiest way possible for you. We're happy to have you and everyone who wants to come.   Sharon: Well, thank you very much for telling us about it.   Marta: Thank you for having me and helping us tell our story.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: What to expect at the second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and tips for attending. How Portugal's 48-year authoritarian regime and the Carnation Revolution continue to influence Portuguese artists and jewelers today. Why jewelry is so closely linked to power and politics. How artists can use masterclasses and workshops to refocus their work. How Marta is working to promote Portugal's art jewelry scene.   About Marta Costa Reis Marta Costa Reis started studying jewelry in 2004, as a hobby, in parallel with other professional activities. She dedicated herself fully to this work in 2014. Costa Reis completed the jewelry course at Ar.Co – Centro de Arte e Comunicacção Visual, in Lisbon, and the Advanced Visual Arts Course at the same school, in addition to workshops with renowned teachers including Iris Eichenberg, Ruudt Peters, Lisa Walker, and Eija Mustonen, among others. In addition to being a jewelry artist, Costa Reis teaches jewelry history at Ar.Co, writes about jewelry, and curates exhibitions. She also serves as artistic director of the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and as a board member of Art Jewelry Forum. Additional Resources: Marta's Website Marta's Instagram   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does jewelry symbolize power, and where do jewelry and politics intersect? That's the central question that Marta Costa Reis and her fellow curators, artists and speakers will explore at this year's Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. Marta joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why this year's theme is so timely; how Portugal's turbulent political history influences jewelry today; and how to plan your trip to make the most of the biennial. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, we're going to be talking about the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I am talking with Marta Costa Reis, who is going to tell us all about it. I met Marta about eight to 5 years ago at the first biennial in Lisbon, Portugal. One of the goals was to gather together examples and information about the history of modern Portugal and the jewelry that's associated with it. When we think of Portuguese jewelry, we don't automatically think of art jewelry. But it has a history of more than several decades about the work that's been going on and art jewelry in general. The second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial is coming up this summer in Lisbon. The last one was held in Lisbon, too. Marta Costa Rice is going to be telling us about this biennial and what to expect this summer in Lisbon. There will be a lot going on in many venues. There is the exhibition at MUDE, which is a very well-known Portuguese design museum. There's an international symposium with people coming from all over the world to discuss the theme of the exhibition, which I'll let Marta tell you about. A lot is taking place at many of the galleries. One of the key exhibits is taking place at the Royal Treasure Museum. But I don't want to steal Marta's spotlight. Today, she'll tell us all about the second Contemporary Jewelry Biennial in Portugal. Marta, welcome to the program. Marta: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and for this very nice introduction. So, where should I start? I don't even know. There's so much to tell. I'm currently organizing the second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I do it as a new chairwoman of PIN, which is a Portuguese contemporary jewelry association. Sharon: PIN, P-I-N? Marta: PIN, yes. PIN has existed now for 20 years. It will be 20 years this September. It was created to organize quite a big event. At the time, Cristina Filipe was one of the founders and was the chairwoman for a very long time. Of course, you know her by the Susan Beach Grant. She received the first Susan Beech Grant for Mid-Career Artists, and that allowed us to publish a book which came from Cristina's Ph.D. about Portuguese jewelry, contemporary jewelry in Portugal. That time, when the book was published, that's when she had traveled to Portugal and we met. We had this challenge for ourselves, saying that if we managed to do a good program to present interesting shows, good visits, we could be able to do a biennial. That's its inspiration, this trip, how all this came to happen. Of course, the timing for the first biennial—we called it the AJF trip. It was like year zero, the pilot episode. The first biennial happened in the middle of the pandemic, so we were never sure that we really would be able to make it happen because there was still a lot of restrictions. But luckily it happened in September 2021, when people were able to travel a little bit. Then we managed to have a huge number of artists and collectors and interesting people. The theme was about the pandemic. It was jewelry of protection and connecting contemporary objects, contemporary jewelry of protection in the 21st century with very old relics and sacred objects that were shown together in an exhibition in a museum here in Lisbon. Of course, we did call it the biennial to force ourselves to do the second one. Sharon: I wanted to ask, what does biennial mean, literally? Marta: It's supposed to be every two years. That that's what it means. It's supposed to happen every two years. Of course, it's a little bit more than two years now. It's two years and a half between the first one and the second one. But because we have this idea to always have as a theme for the biennial something that is happening in the world at the moment. The first one was the pandemic. Now in Portugal 2024, we will have this very important event, which is the 50th anniversary of our revolution when we became a democratic country. I don't know if people are aware that we had an authoritarian regime for 48 years, and it happened in 1974. It was a very smooth revolution. Let's just say that, because it happened without almost any gun being shot. Of course, it took a little while. The Democratic constitution was approved a bit later, but that is the fundamental moment when we became a democratic country or started to become a democratic country. It happened 50 years ago now, so it's really a whole new generation, a whole new world, and we want to celebrate that. Jewelry, of course, has a lot to do with power or representations of power. There is also in contemporary jewelry a lot of political work. Many artists do work that is political or can be read in a political way. We wanted to consider those issues, jewelry of power and political jewelry. That's basically the idea of how it came about. Sharon: Why is it called the Carnation Revolution? Marta: That's an amazing story, actually. It happened because literally a woman that had some red carnations in her hands started to put carnations, the flowers, in the guns of the soldiers. Some of the most famous images of the revolution are soldiers with the flowers in their guns. It represents a lot of things, namely that the guns were not being shot. They were holding flowers. It happened by accident. It's suggested that this lady, apparently one of the soldiers asked her for a cigarette. She said she didn't have cigarettes, but she had a flower, and she put the flower in his gun. And then people started to replicate the gesture. Until today, the red carnation--there were also white carnations, but basically the red carnation is still very much a symbol of that movement, that revolution, and it took the name. For us, thinking about that, the gesture she had is also very much a gesture of adornment, the gesture of adorning that gun with the flower. So, we wanted to pick up on that and what it could mean. Sharon: How is jewelry linked to power? Marta: You have that example, for instance, in the Royal Treasure Museum that you mentioned, which shows the jewelry of the national treasure, jewels that belonged to the state—well, to the crown, basically. Some of them were private jewelry worn by kings and queens. Some of them are more royal estate jewelry. Basically, it's that representation of the power that it can show and the time when diamonds and precious stones and even precious metals were not used by everyone. It showed how powerful a person was, how important or how close to the eye of power. It's the idea of a crown or a tiara, of a whole set of diamonds, but also all the objects that you can put on your body, like the jeweled swords and things like that. Jewelry indeed has a lot to say about power, how you show yourself as a person of power or representing a situation of power, being a king or queen or someone with a very high responsibility. That connection always existed. This museum is brand new. It will be two years ago in June. This jewelry was not accessible. It was not shown for a very long time. It was only in a temporary exhibition, so it's an excellent opportunity to see these pieces that are absolutely incredible. Although many were lost and sold, they're still a very nice collection. Sharon: So, a biennial can be anything, theoretically. Every 10 years, it could be trucks. It could be jewelry, but it could be a biennial about anything, right? Marta: We tried to connect it to things that are ongoing in the world at the moment. For 2024, our main motivation with this event was that we knew it would happen in Portugal. There will be a lot of other moments of celebration of democracy, basically. That that's what the celebration is all about. But if you look at the world at large, it's also very topical, this issue and the themes. It's something that people can relate to at the present moment, not just Portuguese. That's what we thought could be interesting, to see how our jewelers, our artists, are connecting to the world at the present and what they have to say about it through their work, through jewelry. Sharon: How did you get involved in it? Marta: I don't know. It's probably a personality trait. I like to get involved in things. I like this tendency to be of service to something larger than myself. I became involved first with PIN because in my previous professional life, I used to—I was not a lawyer, but I studied law, so I worked with law. I started to be involved with PIN about some situations that were happening with laws that were changing that affected jewelry. So, I started to cooperate with them on that issue. Then I was very much involved in AJF's first visit to Lisbon, and then in the organization of the first biennial. Sharon: AJF means—I want everybody to understand that AJF means Art Jewelry Forum. Marta: Art Jewelry Forum, yes. So, I was the person helping in Portugal. There were others, but I was one of them.  I got very much involved in the first biennial and then Cristina wanted to leave and not do the second one. She was very tired and wanted to move on to something else. I said, "Okay, but we did this biennial. We need to try to do the second one." That's what happened. And I said, "Okay, I'll try to take over and do the second biennial." That's what happened. That's my mission at the moment at this organization, the Portuguese Association for Contemporary Jewelry, to do the second biennial, and from then on let's see how many more we can do. Sharon: I noticed that she wasn't on the list of speakers. Are you giving any kind of prize or a grant like Cristina received 10 years ago to do her book? Marta: No. The program is two exhibitions in the Royal Treasure Museum. One of the exhibitions will be contemporary jewelers doing work to honor a woman of their choice that had a role in the democratic transition, so a woman that was especially hurt by the dictatorship or was especially involved in the democracy. Many of them are artists because we also had censorship and artists could not be free in their work. Many of the women the jewelers chose to honor are artists. A few of them even had to leave Portugal and move to other countries to be able to do their work. But not only do we have anonymous women, we have some politicians. We had one of the first women prime ministers in Europe, so she will be honored as well. There are a few other women that people felt needed some recognition or wanted to give them their recognition. In 1974, when the revolution happened, many of the actors were men because it was done by military men, and all the politicians were men. A few women started showing up afterwards. But before the end of our dictatorship, women had no representation at all in the public space. They were mostly shown as accessories. Good woman, good wife, good cook, but that's all. Only after 1974 did women start to have their own representation as professionals in other things besides being wives. We couldn't even travel to other countries without the husband's permission or have bank accounts or things like that. When I was born, that was still the reality in my country. It's not 200 years ago. It's very, very close to us. That's also why it's important to show those who have not lived through that that an authoritarian regime is a terrible thing. So, we are honoring these women. We have another show of contemporary tiaras by a contemporary artist that will be shown next to the crown jewels. That will be an interesting contrast. These two shows will open in April. So, from April to the end of June, you can see contemporary jewelry in the Royal Treasure Museum, which will also be a first. It's a very endearing project, and there have been great, great partners. Then in May, a show by the contemporary artist Teresa Milheiro will open as well. It's sort of an anthological show, but not only. She always had political themes in her work, so that's one of the reasons why she was chosen to do this solo. Then in the last week of June, between 24th and 30th of June, there will be an immensity of shows. The big show at MUDE that is curated by myself, Mònica Gaspar and Patrícia Domingues is an international collective show with artists from many different parts of the world. Not all parts of the world, because in many countries you still don't have a lot of contemporary jewelry. But we're doing our best to have it as broad as possible. There will be what we call parallel events, which are shows organized by artists, collectives and students that are doing shows at the same time in Lisbon. There's the colloquium with international speakers from many parts of the world. The colloquium will be in English. It will also be accessible online for anyone who wants to stay at home and still be able to accompany that. It will also be about political jewelry and politics and politics of jewelry and power. This will still be the main themes. There will be a show with schools from different countries, a meeting of the students and then an exhibition. The educational part is very present. I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of things or there are things I didn't say yet. There will be what you call a jewelry room with galleries from different countries. Galleries are still, and hopefully will be for a long time, a very important part of the jewelry world, so we want them to be present as well and show their artists and their choices. The last week of June will be absolutely filled with contemporary jewelry in Lisbon. Plus it's an amazing month. It's the best month in Lisbon. There are parties on the streets. It's the best. Sharon: Do the galleries choose what to show that's linked to this theme? What is the official theme? Marta: There is a title, which is Madrugada. That means daybreak. This title is inspired by a very beautiful poem by a Portuguese poet, Sophia de Mello Breyner. It's very short, but basically it says this is a new dawn after a very long, dark night. It's a poem about the revolution. She loosely calls it a new dawn. This is the theme. We asked the galleries to bring work that is connected to theme, to political jewelry, and we also asked them to present a Portuguese artist. Some of them already have Portuguese artists in their midst, in their group of selected artists, and some don't. What we want is for galleries to have a look at the national, Portuguese artists, and make their choice. That way, our Portuguese artists get more representation or more presence and maybe a little more representation in other countries. Sharon: You mentioned the educational piece of the shows and symposia. What do you have planned, and what are the topics? Are they in English? Marta: They are in English. The symposium is in English. I can give you some examples. We will have, for instance, and this could be interesting for you, the artist Cindi Strauss will speak about themes from the book she published recently on American jewelry in the 60s and 70s and the counterculture. She will be there. We will also have a Brazilian researcher called Dionea Rocha Watt, and she will speak about jewelry of power, like the jewelry that Imelda Marcos owns, or the jewelry from the recent scandal with the former Brazilian President Bolsonaro, who sold some jewelry he received, and other representations and connections between jewelry and power. But we will also have, for instance, Rosa Maria Mota, who will speak about traditional Portuguese jewelry. It was used by popular woman from the countryside that bought as much gold jewelry as possible as a way to preserve their finances and their power. It's the connection between traditional gold jewelry and women power. Things like that. It's always around politics and policy and power and jewelry. Hopefully it will be very interesting. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

  Transcript: Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That's exactly why Gina D'Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here. What you'll learn in this episode: What questions to ask appraisers and auction houses before selling your jewelry. What education and networking opportunities an aspiring appraiser should seek out. Why an appraisal includes multiple values, and why those values will change depending on the reason for the appraisal. What the process of selling jewelry with an auction house is like, and why you might choose an auction house over selling online or to a store. What a qualified appraiser will look for while inspecting a piece of jewelry.   About Gina D'Onofrio With work in the retail, auction and manufacturing sectors of the jewelry industry since 1989, Gina D'Onofrio's experience encompasses jewelry design and production, appraisals, buying and selling of contemporary, antique and period jewelry, sales and management. Gina operates an independent gemological laboratory, appraisal service and consulting firm and has been catering to private individuals, banks, trusts, non-profit organizations, insurance companies, legal firms and the jewelry trade in the greater Los Angeles area. Gina received her Master Gemologist Appraiser® designation, upon completion of appraisal studies, written and practical examinations and peer appraisal report review with the American Society of Appraisers. In addition, she was awarded the Certified Master Appraiser designation with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers. In 2013 Gina received Los Angeles Magazine's coveted "Best in LA" award for her Jewelry Appraisal Services. She conducts presentations and entertaining speeches about appraisal and jewelry related topics to private and corporate groups in Los Angeles and throughout the USA.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Email   Transcript: Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That's exactly why Gina D'Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    Today, I am glad to welcome back Gina D'Onofrio, an appraiser who just returned from being an independent appraiser. She returned to the auction house Heritage as co-director of jewelry. She was also on the podcast in the very beginning, and it's good to have her on again. Welcome back.   If you become a certain kind of appraiser, let's say real estate or antique jewelry or I'll call it regular jewelry, how do you continue your education in those areas? What do you do if you're a real estate appraiser and you want to be an expert, or an antique expert? What would you do to continue education in that area?   Gina: You mentioned real estate. So, you mean you're appraising houses and all of a sudden you want to appraise antique jewelry?   Sharon: No, if you're in a particular area, is what I mean. You work in jewelry. What do you do to further your education besides going to the conferences, handling the jewelry? Are there other things you can do to further your education in those areas? In that area, I should say.   Gina: If you're working in jewelry, you're basically filling all the educational holes that you might have. When you say you work in jewelry, if you work for a contemporary jeweler, then you need to have more exposure to vintage jewelry. If it's vice versa, maybe you're working with antique and estate jewelry and you're not as exposed to what present day Tiffany and Company and Cartier and Van Cleef & Arpels are doing, then you have to self-educate and gain more exposure to that kind of jewelry. As a jewelry appraiser, anything can cross your desk. Quite often, I might receive a collection that belongs to somebody, and she may have something that she bought last week and she may have something that her great-grandmother owned and she has inherited. You need to be able to recognize and evaluate and appraise both pieces. So, you do need a very well-rounded education.   Sharon: You raised the point of Cartier and David Webb and the high-end pieces that designers make, but not everything you see is going to be that. As you said, there's the piece that the grandmother passes down. Heritage, I presume, isn't all Cartier. What do you do then? What do you do if a piece comes across your desk and it's not a Cartier or it's not a David Webb? Do you look at a David Webb as the benchmark and then go from there?   Gina: No, you don't, because a piece that has no stamp or signature doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a fine piece. That's where having an understanding of jewelry manufacturing is critical. You do need to gain an education on how a piece of jewelry is made. GIA is teaching a class called jewelry forensics. In that class, they teach appraisers and other members of the industry how to look at a piece and recognize how it was fabricated. Was it made entirely by hand? Was it made by carving a wax and casting it? Was it made via CAD/CAM design and 3D printing? Was made by using a die struck method? These are all different methods of producing a piece of jewelry, and as an appraiser you need to have an education in that so when you're holding that piece of jewelry in your hand, A) you recognize how it was made, and B) you recognize the quality of the workmanship. That plays into the value of the piece.    For example, you might have a piece of jewelry, and you recognize that it was made entirely by hand. A great deal of time and effort has gone into making it, and the workmanship is excellent. Flawless, in fact. That is going to inform you as to what it would cost to replace that piece if your client wants to insure it for another piece that has been made entirely by hand.    Or, you might look at a piece that is mass produced using CAD/CAM and 3D printing, but it's a piece that's not finished very well. It's poorly made, and the setting work is very poor, too. In fact, some of the stones are a little bit loose because they weren't set properly, or perhaps they're not straight in the piece. That's going to tell you that it's a mass-produced piece. If it's not signed, you're going to be looking at other mass-produced pieces of the same type of lower quality in order to determine what it would cost to replace that piece. Understanding production is really important.   Sharon: Can you be an appraiser without having this background of manufacturing and that sort of thing? Could you be an appraiser?   Gina: You can. I'm really sad to say that there is no licensing of jewelry appraisers. There is no regulation, no government regulation. We self-regulate. That's why if you want to become a professional appraiser and you want to be the best appraiser you can be, you should join an organization that gives you excellent education and network with other very experienced appraisers who can help guide you in the right direction to get the education that you need.    Unfortunately, anybody can appraise jewelry and nobody can stop you. As a consumer, it's best to look for an appraiser that has reached the highest level they can possibly attain within an appraisal organization that requires their members to requalify every five years. The International Society of Appraisers has a requalification program. So does the American Society of Appraisers. They do require their members to requalify every five years. Then you have the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers that have different strata of membership, different tiers of membership, so look for an appraiser within that organization that has successfully completed the Certified Master Appraiser program, the CMA, and at the very least is a certified appraiser. Someone who has sat for the exams.   Sharon: What is requalification? Is that a test on paper or a computer, or is it just that you came to class?   Gina: It varies. It depends on which organization. I failed to mention the American Gem Society, I apologize. They also have an Independent Gemologist Appraiser program. For requalification, you have to attend a minimum amount of education every year. You have to prove you have done that. There is also an exam you have to take as well.   Sharon: You answered one of the questions I had, which is what you would ask somebody you want to be an appraiser for you. What would you ask them to know if they're good or not? What should I ask? What would somebody in the public ask if they're looking for an appraiser?   Gina: Yes. Everything that I just told you. Make sure that they have reached the highest designation they can within those appraisal organizations.   Sharon: I took some antique jewelry to an appraiser not knowing that they did all kinds of jewelry, but they weren't an expert in antiques. Was there any way to suss that out in advance?   Gina: That's a great question, Sharon. That's tricky. As I mentioned earlier, I feel that it's difficult to get a formal education in jewelry history today, so you are getting it piecemeal from wherever you can, which is why I developed my courses. There is no way to look at an appraiser and have them prove to you that they are a specialist in antique and period jewelry. Unfortunately, that's something that comes by way of reputation. You may have to ask, "How did you become proficient?" You may have to just ask them to explain that to you. It's a tricky one. As a consumer, I'm not quite sure how that could be proven.   Sharon: What would you suggest the public ask if you want to know if an appraiser is credentialed, a credible appraiser?   Gina: You ask them what level of certification, what designation, they have achieved within their appraisal organization. Are they a member of the ASA, the NAJA, the ISA, the AGS? If they are a member—you could be a member and not attain any education. You could be a candidate member, or you could just simply be a member. Ask them, "What education have you completed with these organizations? Are you designated? What is your designation? What is your experience with antique and period jewelry? Are you proficient with that type of jewelry?" Just outright ask them to show you what their education and designation is.    Most appraisers who have achieved this level of education and designation have spent a great deal of time attaining it and are proud of what they've achieved, and they usually put up on their website for everybody to see. But if they haven't done that, you can ask them for their professional profiles so you can read through what they've achieved, and you can even check it. You can call those appraisal organizations to see if the information you've been provided is true and accurate.   Sharon: I'm thinking about something you said earlier. If somebody says to me, "I don't have a formal education in this, but I've handled a million and one pieces in this era, and I can tell right away if it's fake or not and who made it," what do you say to that?   Gina: That's quite possible. Absolutely. Then that makes them a connoisseur and a specialist in antique and period jewelry. But are they an appraiser? Do they have an education in appraisal report writing? Can they write that appraisal report for you? That's the other part. That's the other side of the coin. That's the other thing they have to have to be an appraiser. Otherwise, they're an expert in that period of jewelry, but they're not necessarily an appraiser.   Sharon: That's interesting. When I thought about being an appraiser myself, it was the report writing that scared me off. That's very detailed and very scientific in a way. Very precise.   Gina: Yes, and that education is something that you can study.   Sharon: Okay. I think I'll pass.   Gina: You almost looked like you were considering it, Sharon.   Sharon: No, I think I've heard too much about the classes for the report writing and how they're pretty onerous, in a in a good way.   Gina: They're fascinating. I highly recommend it. Anyone out there who is writing appraisal reports and doesn't have a foundation in appraisal report writing from one of the major organizations, I really suggest that you go out and get that education. You'll be amazed at what you'll learn. It's going to make you even better at what you do.   Sharon: Why would you say it makes you better at what you do?   Gina: This education is written by appraisers, not just one appraiser, but collaborative groups of appraisers who have been immersed in that profession for many, many years. They have learned the best approaches and the pitfalls. They have studied the government requirements. They may have had a lot of experience in appraising for litigation, and this collective information has been formally put into a course. It's only going to help you as an appraiser. It's going to help you avoid ending up in court or possibly being disqualified as an appraiser for the IRS because you did not follow the proper procedures. If you know what pitfalls to avoid and how to arrive at a more informed opinion of value, it's only going to make your appraisal a better product for the person that's using it.   Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. I keep going back to Antiques Roadshow. They talk about the auction value and the retail value and the insurance value. It drives me crazy because you see the glassy-eyed look in somebody's eyes. I want to say, "Didn't you hear what they said?"   Gina: As an appraiser and as a specialist for an auction house, this is the biggest problem. This is the biggest obstacle for a private individual, understanding that there is not just one value. There are multiple values for the same piece of jewelry. It just depends on the market. It depends on whether it's the auction market, whether it is the liquidation market, or whether it is the retail market or whether it is the antique and estate jewelry market. Is it being sold as a brand-new piece? Is it being sold as a pre-owned piece in a retail scenario? Is it a custom-made designer piece? The same piece of jewelry could have various values depending on what you need that information for.   Sharon: I wonder, you talked about this handmade piece. Is there a replacement? Yes, there's an insurance value, but could you find a replacement somewhere in the market?   Gina: That's a great question. You know what? Appraisal organizations, we all have forums, email chat groups where we ask each other questions and use the collaborative brain trust of your peers to help you solve a problem, and a problem came up today. There was a photograph of a bracelet that was posted by a professional appraiser. This appraiser recognized the designer. The designer and the manufacturer—they are one in the same—was a French designer called Georges Lenfant. He was a manufacturer of chains, particularly beautifully constructed chains and bracelets, and he manufactured for all the major jewelry houses, Van Cleef & Arpels, Cartier, goodness me, so many of them. He was very active in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s. He had his own trademark that he would put inside a piece, but he didn't sign it. The piece was often signed with the jewelry house, Cartier, and then it had the Georges Lenfant stamp inside the piece. He was a French maker.  I tell you all of this to explain that today, when pieces of jewelry come to market made by this particular maker, there is an extra layer of interest and value because these pieces are so beautifully made. This appraiser posted a piece of jewelry by this maker. This is one of those pieces that wasn't signed by a major jewelry house, but the appraiser was very good and was able to recognize that it was the Georges Lenfant trademark and posed the question, "Can anybody tell me where I can find examples of this piece so I can arrive at an opinion of replacement value?" It was a 1970s bracelet made by this French maker. Where would you replace a 1970s piece made by this maker? It would be with somebody who typically sells vintage jewelry, high-end vintage jewelry. That should have been the answer to this question.    Unfortunately, one of the answers provided was, "Contact the manufacturer and ask them what they would charge you to make it today." It's not being made today, not that particular piece. It's a vintage piece by a collectible maker. I guess that's a very long example to your question. You need to determine, is this a piece that's typically being made today, or is this a vintage piece that has collectible value? Do you recognize who the maker is? Is there a stamp inside there? Is there some way you can look this up? If you can't look it up, who do you go to? How do you find out? You need to know to ask all these questions. All this happens by networking with your peers, by attending appraisal conferences, by self-educating, and by handling a lot of this jewelry.   Sharon: Do you have a favorite period that you like to appraise, or a favorite stone that you are more partial to?   Gina: Oh, boy. Gosh. Well, my focus is 20th century jewelry. I have no favorites. I love all periods of jewelry, but because I am very much immersed these days in jewelry from 1930 to 2000, which I feel is an area of education that is not being covered enough, I tend to focus on 20th century jewelry and preferably the latter half.   Sharon: I can understand. How do you bring the jewelry in, and what do you do with it once you have it?   Gina: A typical day as a consignment director at Heritage Auctions. Well, that varies from day to day, but if you're talking about the consignment process, I could be going to visit with a client. It could be in his or her home. I could be looking at the jewelry and studying the jewelry and learning about the history behind the piece from the owner. Based on that information and based on the collection, I could be coming up with estimate ranges of what the piece of jewelry may sell for at auction. At that point, the owner of the jewelry may consign it to the auction house, at which point I take the jewelry with me and it goes through the auction process.    It gets shipped to headquarters, where it is professionally photographed. If there are any repairs that need to be done, it's done at that point. If lab reports need to be obtained, they are submitted to the labs for grading reports or gem origin identification reports. Then they go through the cataloging process, where the pieces are tested, gemstones are measured, and weight estimates are provided and entered into the system. Then all this information is compiled into the digital online catalog. If it's a signature sale, it also goes into the printed catalog and it goes to print. Those catalogs are distributed to all the bidders.    Then the marketing begins. Biographies are written and researched. Anything that will assist in helping to provide more information to a potential bidder is entered. Then the publicity begins and the public previews begin. The pieces are shipped and sent off to our major satellite offices where they are set up in jewelry showcases, and they are available for public preview. Sometimes special events are planned around these previews, and the planning behind those special events takes place as well. Once all of that is complete, then the pieces are offered up on auction day. When the pieces have successfully sold at auction, then they are packaged up again, money is collected, and the pieces are shipped to the new owners.   Sharon: Do you ever have repeat clients or repeat people who call you and say, "Gina, I have something I want to show you," because you've developed a relationship?   Gina: Yes, definitely. I have regular consignors and I have regular buyers, and sometimes they are one in the same. There are people that are constantly refining their jewelry collections, so sometimes they'll sell a piece that they no longer need, but they're also collecting pieces that are more to their evolving tastes. We have collectors. Then we also have repeat consignors. I have many clients who have accumulated lovely jewelry collections over the years, and they're very slowly thinning the collection or letting each piece go once they're ready to sell it.   Sharon: Is that because they're aging out, let's say, or they get tired of a piece?   Gina: It could be either. If you're a collector and you're refining your collection, then yes, you're refining it and you're selling pieces that no longer fit in with your style that is evolving. If you're downsizing, you could be downsizing everything in your life, including your home, your clothes and your jewelry collection. Sometimes lifestyle. Especially today, lifestyles change. We no longer wear the jewelry we used to wear, and it's just sitting around. Maybe it's time to sell those pieces to put it into something else. Maybe you want to start a college fund for your child, and that jewelry you're no longer wearing anymore is going to go into that fund. There are all kinds of reasons why people sell their jewelry. Sometimes it's a divorce settlement. Sometimes it's by court order. We've had many sales that have been by court order. The government wants to collect their taxes and it's a liquidation. Jewelry is going up for sale because it's by court order.   Sharon: It's certainly true that lifestyles change very fast and what you wore. I think, "Well, you're a middle-aged woman now. Am I going to wear what I wore when I was 20?" It's very different.   Gina, thank you very much for being here. I learned a lot. It was great to talk with you and I hope you will come back soon.   Gina: Thank you so much, Sharon. It was such a pleasure to talk to you as well.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.    

What you'll learn in this episode: What questions to ask appraisers and auction houses before selling your jewelry. What education and networking opportunities an aspiring appraiser should seek out. Why an appraisal includes multiple values, and why those values will change depending on the reason for the appraisal. What the process of selling jewelry with an auction house is like, and why you might choose an auction house over selling online or to a store. What a qualified appraiser will look for while inspecting a piece of jewelry.   About Gina D'Onofrio With work in the retail, auction and manufacturing sectors of the jewelry industry since 1989, Gina D'Onofrio's experience encompasses jewelry design and production, appraisals, buying and selling of contemporary, antique and period jewelry, sales and management. Gina operates an independent gemological laboratory, appraisal service and consulting firm and has been catering to private individuals, banks, trusts, non-profit organizations, insurance companies, legal firms and the jewelry trade in the greater Los Angeles area. Gina received her Master Gemologist Appraiser® designation, upon completion of appraisal studies, written and practical examinations and peer appraisal report review with the American Society of Appraisers. In addition, she was awarded the Certified Master Appraiser designation with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers. In 2013 Gina received Los Angeles Magazine's coveted "Best in LA" award for her Jewelry Appraisal Services. She conducts presentations and entertaining speeches about appraisal and jewelry related topics to private and corporate groups in Los Angeles and throughout the USA.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Email   Transcript: Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That's exactly why Gina D'Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here.   Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   Today, I am glad to welcome back Gina D'Onofrio, an appraiser who just returned from being an independent appraiser. She returned to the auction house Heritage as co-director of jewelry. She was also on the podcast in the very beginning, and it's good to have her on again.  I got to know Gina when she was head of the western arm of the Association of Jewelry Historians, a volunteer position. I got to know her further when she was an independent appraiser. She recently returned to Heritage Auction House as co-director of the jewelry department. Why did she return to Heritage? That's one of the things she'll be sharing with us as she tells her story. Gina will also be describing why she chose to become an appraiser and what the job entails on a day-to-day basis. She'll tell us how she deals with the dual challenges of not only bringing in jewelry to appraise, but nurturing relationships that make clients keep coming back to her with jewelry. Gina, welcome to the podcast.   Gina: Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be back, Sharon. Great to talk to you again.   Sharon: I'm so glad that you are on the show again. Now, my first question is if I describe to you a piece of jewelry and you've never held it or seen it or anything, but I tell you it's this many years old and it's these stones, if it has stones, can you tell me how much you think it would be worth?   Gina: Well, appraising a piece of jewelry that I can't actually see and evaluate and hold in my hand to determine the different value characteristics it might have, it would be flippant of me to give you a value. I think it would be unfair, because you may describe it to me based on your knowledge of the piece or based on what somebody has told you about the piece. If I hold it in my hand, I might see something totally different. I may have a different opinion.  For example, you may say that someone told you it was an Art Deco brooch, that it was 1920s, and it was a sapphire and diamond piece. If I had a chance to look at it, I might determine that the sapphire was laboratory grown rather than natural, because they were producing sapphires in a lab in the 1920s. You may not have that piece of information. You may have part of it, that it's a sapphire, but you may not have the rest. So, for me to arrive at a value based on your description, it's just incomplete. It wouldn't be fair.   Sharon: Could you tell if a sapphire was lab grown or if it was natural if you just looked at it without a loupe or without a microscope?   Gina: No, not without a loupe. Definitely not. Sometimes I can determine with a loupe, depending on the sapphire and the nature of the inclusions it may or may not have. But I would have to say that nine times out of 10, I need that microscope to separate the lab grown from the natural. In fact, I was doing a lot of that today. I have a collection of pieces from a dealer, and they need me to tell them if it's laboratory grown or natural. Most of the pieces they have provided to me are circa 1920 through to 1940, and about 70% of them are lab grown.   Sharon: That's interesting. One would think that they're mostly all the same. They're all lab grown or they're all natural, or most of them are one or the other.   Gina: Yes, one would think. In fact, one of the pieces had both in the one piece. It had square calibre cut sapphires in the piece, and some of them were natural and some of them were lab grown. They were selected not for the value of the sapphires. They were selected so that they were all uniform in color. At the time, I have no doubt that those lab-grown sapphires were much more expensive than they are today, just like I imagine lab-grown diamonds will be 20 years from now. Right now, they are falling rapidly in price. I imagine in the future we'll be looking at those lab-grown diamonds just like we're looking at lab-grown sapphires that were produced in the early 20th century.   Sharon: That's interesting. Like this dealer, if I have several pieces of jewelry that I want to sell or I want to auction off, should I make the rounds of auctioneers and see what the best deal is, or should I choose the one I like, the auctioneer that I jibe with the most?   Gina: That's an interesting question. There's a lot of depends there. It depends on the piece that you have. Some auction houses will only take a certain price point and above in order for them to bring your piece to a successful sale. So, already, your piece may or may not be suitable for some auction houses.    The second part of your question, I think, is very important because the market is going to do what it's going to do. If the auction house is one of the more reputable, top-tier auction houses—Heritage Auctions is definitely one of them. If they are going to be putting the proper marketing behind your piece, professional photography, if they have an international bidding audience, then after that, it's going to be important to know that you have a comfortable relationship with the representative of that auction house and that they are going to be your advocate, because it's not just the estimate. In fact, the estimate is probably the very least important thing about your piece if you were going to be selling it at auction.  What's more important is what are they going to do for you? Are they going to represent your piece properly? Do they have the right audience for your piece? How many photographs of the piece are going to be taken? Is it going to be up for a public preview? Is it a traveling preview that your piece is going to be placed in? There are many aspects to this that need to be discussed with you as the consignor. Then also, what fees are you going to be charged? There's a lot of ifs. I wish I could give you a more direct answer, but if you were going to me, for example, at Heritage Auctions, I'm going to be exploring all those options with you so that you can make an informed decision.   Sharon: On the Antiques Roadshow, they say very often, "In a well-marketed auction, this would be X-Y-Z price." To me, a well-marketed auction is one that has to advertise. I'd see ads. That's it. What would you consider a well-marketed auction piece or auction?   Gina: Well, Sharon, coming from you, I think that's an excellent question since you are a marketing extraordinaire. These days, marketing is very different, isn't it? We're looking at more the digital aspect of marketing, because so many of us are online now, just like you and I are right now. Being online for marketing is what type of social media presence do you have? What type of email marketing do you have? Also, what is your bidding audience for marketing? How are you able to reach them? Through email, or are you just relying on more conventional forms of auction marketing, be it print advertising or be it public previews? I think in this present market, it's good to have a balance of both. But I am finding that digital marketing is becoming more and more critical.   Sharon: I would believe that. I'm curious, what are the fees involved? Is it the buyer who pays the fees or the auction house that pays the fees to the buyer? I never understood that.   Gina: Again, it depends. As far as the consignor goes, if you have the Hope Diamond, then I imagine that the buyer will have no fees to pay. It is such a highly coveted piece that everybody would be very competitive to have that on the cover of their auction catalog. But in the auction world, with most auction houses, both the buyer and the seller are paying fees. This is how the auction house survives. The fees are going to vary depending on the consignment. How many pieces are you consigning? What is the value of the pieces that you're consigning? That is going to vary. On the buyer end, the fees are very much locked in. I have to tell you, I don't join Heritage Auctions again for another two weeks, so I don't have the most current buyer's fees. But I believe that it is around 25%, give or take, up until a certain amount. Above that, the buyer's premium starts to go down in price. It's tiered depending on the value of the piece, the hammer price of the piece that you are purchasing.   Sharon: Can you negotiate? Let's say you do have the Hope Diamond. What is negotiable? How many pieces you are putting in, but how much you're getting for each piece or reserved prices?   Gina: As a consignor?   Sharon: Yes.   Gina: Fees can be negotiable if you have something important. If it's a lot of work to sell a piece, and by that I mean if you have 100 pieces that are probably going to auction for $1,000 or less, then you will probably pay the full rate because it's a lot of work to sell all those individual pieces for the amount of money that the auction house will receive. It really depends on what you have. But if you have something very important with important provenance like the Hope Diamond, then that's definitely negotiable.    As far as reserves go, reserves are something that the specialist should really set for you. That is something they will suggest to you. You may or may not agree with them, but at the end of the day, once you arrive at an agreed reserve, then that goes into your contract. That is contractual.    Sharon: Can you explain to everybody to make sure we're all on the same page, what is the reserve, what's a consigner, and what's the opposite?   Gina: Yes, the language. The consignor is the person that owns the jewelry. They are the person that is loaning the jewelry to the auction house to give them the opportunity to sell it on behalf of the consignor. So, the consignor owns the piece.    The reserve is the absolute minimum that the piece will hammer for, and hammer means the final bid, the highest bid that someone will pay for at auction. That is the absolute minimum that it will go for at auction. That is the reserve. It is also the opening bid for Heritage Auctions. For example, let's say a piece has an auction estimate of $1,500 to $2,500, and I may suggest to you that the reserve for that piece should be $1,000. The opening bid, the minimum is $1,000, so the bidding begins at that amount. If nobody else bids on that piece except for one person who has bid the reserve, $1,000, that is the price it will hammer for. That is the final sale. Does that make sense?   Sharon: It makes sense. I was wondering how long somebody has to pull the piece back, as they say. If they have the feeling they won't like what the hammer price is, can they pull it back?   Gina: The reserve, that $1,000 for that piece is in their written contract. And in the written contract, they have agreed to allow the auction house to take it through to completion. By the time it is photographed, cataloged, shipped, insured, marketed, the auction house has invested a certain amount of money in that piece. So, if there is a contract, if there is an agreement for the auction house to try and sell this on behalf of the consignor, they have to be allowed to take it through to completion. That is why it is in the contract, because the auction house is investing money in the piece.   Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. Jumping subjects, in jewelry you can do a lot of different things. Why did you decide to become an appraiser? You could have done a lot of things with a GIA, a gemological degree. Why did you decide to become an appraiser?   Gina: That's a great question. For me, I didn't initially plan on becoming an appraiser. I worked in different areas of the jewelry industry. I got my Gemological Diploma. I graduated in 1992. I got my FGA. I worked in retail and then I worked in design. At the time, I was also doing appraisals in Australia. We call them valuations. I was a valuer, but that was something that I did part time. I did what was required at the time. Then I worked for an antiques dealer and was involved in buying and selling of antique and estate jewelry. Then I worked for a manufacturer assisting in the production of jewelry. I worked in different areas of the jewelry industry. Many years later I decided to open my own business, and that business was going to be doing custom design work because I was able to draw, do renderings and was very good with production. The other half of my business was going to be appraisals. I was doing both, and the business pretty much decided for me what I was going to do full time. After I was established, I realized that there was such a demand for an independent appraiser that I had to stop jewelry designing and just focus on the appraisal aspect of it.   Sharon: Why an independent appraiser? I would think that if you go to an auction house, I would like to think it's an independent appraisal. If the appraiser works for the auction house, whether or not they do, it would still be an independent appraisal. Is that true or not?   Gina: Well, to answer that question, we probably need to back up a little bit and define what an appraisal is. An appraisal is a researched opinion of value. In order for me to arrive at a researched opinion of value, I need to know what you, the client, want to do with the information. Are you purchasing insurance for your piece? If that's the case, we need to appraise your piece for what it would cost for you to walk into a store that typically sells that piece of jewelry. We research that market. We research all the stores that typically sell your jewelry. The most common price is what I would appraise it for.    If you are selling that exact same piece of jewelry, that ends up being a different value. So, I have to understand what you want to do with that information. If you, as a private individual, want to sell your piece of jewelry, your options are to sell it at auction, to sell it directly to a dealer or a store that sells pre-owned jewelry, or you could put it online on eBay or one of the online auction platforms yourself as a private individual. In all cases, there is a cost to selling that we have to factor in, and we also have to research what pieces like yours have recently sold at auction. We look at the most common price to arrive at an opinion of resale value. That value is going to be different to what you would pay for it in a retail store.   Sharon: You reminded me that earlier today I happened to be looking at an estate jewelry site and they said, "You can consign your jewelry with us." I thought that was interesting. I wonder, do they pay more for it? Where would we get the most for it? Is there a rule of thumb?   Gina: Well, again, it depends. What type of marketing, what type of audience do they have, what type of track record do they have? I really can't speak to the online vendor you're referring to because I don't know who it is. But basically, you want to sell your jewelry with the company or the platform that has the biggest audience and the best track record, and the ones that are going to do the most in the form of marketing for your piece. And then also you have to look at the cost of selling and take all that into consideration. Who is going to represent your piece in the best possible way?   Sharon: What was the process that you had to go through to become an appraiser once you decided that's what you wanted to do, plus the rendering and the custom design? What did you have to do?   Gina: For me, my skill set is a culmination of having worked in different areas of the industry. Everything that I had done up until the point where I started to appraise independently assisted me in being able to evaluate a piece. Aside from that, having a Gemological Diploma, having experience in different areas of the jewelry industry, having handled thousands and thousands of antique and period pieces of jewelry, having worked for a manufacturer and understanding the process of manufacturing jewelry, understanding the difference between a handmade piece versus a cast, mass produced piece. My past experience helped me with all of that. That's one side of appraisal education, hands-on experience.    The other side is understanding how to write an appraisal report and appraisal theory, which is some of what I was trying to describe to you earlier with some of the questions you posed. For example, understanding the difference between resale value, liquidation value, fair market value, writing an appraisal for the IRS, writing an appraisal as an expert witness for settling a dispute in court. This is all education that you can gain by attending classes with an appraisal organization. Reputable appraisal organizations have what we call principles of value. They teach classes on writing appraisal reports for different reasons. You also need to have a solid foundation in jewelry history. Unfortunately, there's no one path to gaining education in jewelry history. It's something that you acquire through various appraisal conferences and appraisal organizations. It is ongoing. I myself found that there was a serious need for education in jewelry history, so I have developed my own courses and I have been teaching them. I've been teaching 20th century jewelry history to various organizations and also in shorter form for jewelry seminars. This is something that a jewelry appraiser really needs a solid foundation in.   The other part of being an independent jewelry appraiser is not just knowing jewelry history, jewelry theory, jewelry appraisal report writing and jewelry manufacturing, but they also need to understand who all the major jewelry designers are. They need to self-educate by going to those jewelry houses. Cartier, Tiffany and Company, David Webb, Chopard, all the major jewelry designers. Learn who they all are. Learn what is typical of their design. Start handling more and more pieces from these major jewelry designers at auction previews. Attend as many auction previews as you can. Attend as many conferences as you can, as many jewelry shows as you can. The more exposure that an appraiser has, the better an appraiser they will become.   Sharon: So, there's no license or something you can get that teaches you all this, like how to write the reports and the history and whatever else there is involved, which is a lot.   Gina: Yes, it's a lot. It's ongoing. I've been doing this for 35 years now. I'm still learning. I teach it and I'm still learning, and that's why I love it. It's never ending. You can learn the theory of appraisal report writing with an appraisal organization such as the ASA, the American Society of Appraisers, or the NAJA, National Association of Jewelry Appraisers or the ISA. I'm mentioning them all because I'm not showing favoritism for one over another. They all have their strengths. I'm a member of all three, but they all have education they can provide for appraisers.   Then there are organizations like the Accredited Gemologists Association, which I believe is a must because they provide education for the cutting edge of gemology, the latest treatments and techniques that you need to learn. They have conferences twice a year and also online education. Then you should join the American Society of Jewelry Historians so that you can network with other people who are trying to self-educate on jewelry history and become privy to some of the education that they provide.   There are also two major antique jewelry shows that you can attend in the US. One of them is the Miami Antiques Show that is in January, and the other one is the Jewelry Antique Show in Las Vegas at the end of May, early June. I attend the one in Las Vegas every single year. I attend as many jewelry previews as I can and visit many estate jewelry retailers, too. The more that you handle, the more that you inspect, the better you are going to be as an appraiser.   Sharon: What do you look for when you're inspecting and handling these pieces? What do you look for?   Gina: You're training your eye. I'm training my eye. I'm becoming a connoisseur. You can see behind me there are a lot of books there. I do read a lot of books on jewelry design, jewelry designers and jewelry history. Then I go out and look at jewelry from those particular designers, and I look for consistency in how a piece is being made. I look at how that piece has been found. I look at consistency in the design.    For example, if I am looking at pieces of jewelry by an American designer, David Webb, David Webb was very active in the 60s and 70s. He died, I believe, in the late 70s, but his jewelry designs are still being made today from his catalog of designs. He was a very active designer with an enormous collection of renderings. His pieces are still being made, and there's a consistency to how he liked to design his jewelry. His jewelry designs were always very big and bold. They were colorful, or they were very black and white chromatic. He had a way of signing his jewelry. He had certain influences that informed how he designed that jewelry. There was a consistency in all of that.    David Webb always liked to work in yellow gold and platinum. You don't typically see jewelry by David Webb that is white gold and platinum or white gold and yellow gold. It's platinum and yellow gold. That was his choice of metals. So, if you see something that's white gold and yellow gold, already, that's a red flag. But you wouldn't know to look for that unless you're handling a lot of pieces by that particular designer. Cartier, for example, their jewelry was manufactured in Paris, but also some of the jewelry is manufactured in the US. They sign their jewelry in a particular way. They have certain collections that they designed over the decades. Until you start handling more and more pieces by that jewelry house, you would not know how to recognize it unless you're reading the books and cross-referencing. Sharon, I am giving you very long answers to these questions. I hope that it's helping.   Sharon: No, it's interesting. It's making me think of other questions. For instance, you talked about the replicas from David Webb. They're still doing things from the catalog. Would that be worth as much as an original David Webb, as when he was alive, if you had a replica?   Gina: Well, when you say replica, you mean a newer David Webb piece versus an older David Webb piece, right? Because a replica means somebody who is not David Webb has replicated it, has copied it, and that's a different thing. I'm just clarifying for the audience.    Sharon: No, please.  Gina: We're talking about a newer David Webb piece made from the back catalog. I guess it depends on the piece. There are collectors of David Webb jewelry who like to think that they're buying an earlier piece of David Webb jewelry when David Webb was active. But newer David Webb jewelry is still collectible and still very desirable.   Sharon: That's interesting.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you'll learn in this episode: How Saudia is preserving her mom Cara Croninger's legacy Why Cara Croninger's resin and plastic jewelry was—and still is—groundbreaking How Cara Croninger refined her jewelry making process, and why she didn't want her pieces to be perfect What it was like to grow up in an artistic family in the heyday of New York's art jewelry scene How Saudia's mom and dad influenced her music career today   About Saudia Young Saudia Young is a New York City-born actress/singer and storyteller in theater and film. Born on the Lower East Side and brought up between Tribeca and LA, Young explores the notion of home, love, justice, and identity through her art.   The recently repatriated artist lived in Berlin, Germany, for a long chapter of performing, writing, and producing. The Ameripolitan Awards 2023 Female Rockabilly Singer nominee released her 7" single ‘Noir Rockabilly Blues,' produced by Lars Vegas-DE and featuring 'The Wobble' on the A and Iggy Pop's 'Lust for Life' on the B side, in 2017, followed up by her 12” debut ‘Unlovable' in 2018. The LP was recorded live at Berlin, Germany's legendary Lightning Recorders.   Young founded a Dark Kabarett and a Rockabilly Noir Blues band in Berlin, co-created the Lost Cabaret and the Schwarze Liste Kabarett theater projects and wrote and produced the award-winning short film The Gallery. While in Berlin, she was cast in the lead voice-over role of Oskar in School for Vampires (the English version of the Hahn Film cartoon series).   Young co-wrote and performed the solo show Sneaker Revolution and is currently writing a theater/film piece about her actor father, Otis Young, and sculptor/designer mom Cara Croninger. Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Saudia's Website Saudia's Instagram Saudia's Youtube   Transcript:   To jewelry lovers, Cara Croninger was a groundbreaking artist whose work was shown at iconic galleries Artwear and Sculpture to Wear. To musician and actress Saudia Young, she was just mom. Today, Saudia is working to preserve her mother's legacy and secure her place in art jewelry history. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Cara made her pioneering resin jewelry; how Cara's work evolved with the times; and why Saudia thinks of her mom every time she performs. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.   Today, we're speaking to my guest, Saudia Young, who is located in Philadelphia. She has an interesting background. Her mother was a very well-known jeweler, and her father was an actor. She was born in New York and grew up between New York and Los Angeles. Welcome back.   Were you aware she was doing this? Were you aware that she went to different galleries, that she didn't have a sales rep when you were growing up? Were you aware of this?   Saudia: Yeah, of course. There was one point in the 90s where she had a showroom. Tony Goldman and Janet Goldman had a showroom called Fragments, and she was in the showroom for some years. She had different reps throughout her life. Ten Thousand Things was a store. They still exist, and they have incredibly beautiful work. For a while in the Meatpacking District, they had a nice cadre of artists, and my mom was one of the artists. They also did wholesale for her. So, they represented her work to other people.   Sharon: I have a few pieces, just a smattering, but do you have a lot of her work? Do you have an archive of her work?   Saudia: Oh, yeah. That's part of what I've been dealing with. My sister and I have our own personal collections. Throughout the years, my mom collected the best pieces of each group and gave us our personal collections. Then I have basically all the work she left behind when she passed away. I've been trying to organize that. There was a big section of it shown at the Aspen Art Museum two years ago for about a year. Jonathan Burger had a show called The Store. My mom's jewelry and sculptures were in one show. That was really exciting, to have both together. Actually, 14 small sculptures sold during that show and, fingers crossed, about seven pieces will be donated to an institution. I'm not going to say which one. That takes a long time.   Right now, there are pieces that are actively being sold. Lisa Berman—not a family member, just the same last name—from Sculpture to Wear sold some of my mom's work at her first gallery. She also helped sell some pieces when I came out and was trying to figure out what to do and how to secure the legacy, meaning literally a storage space to hold everything. It's a big responsibility.   Sharon: You're referring to Lisa Berman.   Saudia: Yeah, who is not your blood relation but of the same name. Obviously, she introduced us and was part of the first interview. She's consulted with me. She's another one of the angels. There's a whole host of people who are still in awe of my mom's work and in support and cheerleading. It includes Robert Lee Morris.   I'm still trying to figure out what to do with the work to secure the legacy. It is being sold at Studio Hop in Providence, Rhode Island. That's introducing the work to some people who have not seen it before. It's introducing it to a new audience, which is really nice. Jussara Lee, who used to sell it in Manhattan and is now in Connecticut, has been selling it. Other than that, I have an Artwork Archive website for her so people can see the work. I'm not selling it from that website, but there is a section of it that's still being sold. Then there's a section I'm holding in case I can get it accepted into an institution.   Sharon: I remember a few years ago, I fell in love with a bracelet and I didn't end up getting it. I think it was the first time I ever heard of her, and I thought it was so neat.   Saudia: Yeah, it sold a lot of work. They stopped selling after she passed away. They also had a hard time. Everybody is just recovering now from Covid. A lot of people had a very hard time in the past few years. Some stores closed and sales went down. There were several stores who were carrying her work who have closed since Covid.   Sharon: What did you do to make it through Covid and to have money come in?   Saudia: I cried. I don't know. I did whatever I could. I was going back and forth between Germany and here. There was a grant in Germany—actually, it wasn't a grant; it was a loan—but there was a Covid loan they were giving to artists in Germany. Here, I went on unemployment for a while and then I went off it, whatever I could. We all did what we could to survive.   Sharon: That's very true. I know there were different things we had to do. I agree with you that people are just coming out of it now.   Saudia: And now we have two wars, so it's like, “Great, thank you.” Can't catch a break.   Sharon: Which is worse? I don't know. I guess if you're in the field over there, it's worse.   Saudia: Yeah.   Sharon: A lot worse. How does it feel to have a mother who's mentioned by people you don't know? You say you're the daughter and all of a sudden, they say, “Oh, I love your mom,” or “I love her jewelry.”   Saudia: What do you mean? How does it feel?   Sharon: Yeah. If I said, “Oh, I have a really neat bracelet,” and the person says, “I've not heard of that person,” how does it feel?   Saudia: First of all, a young man—he's probably my age. It's so funny I still think of myself as a teenager. Timothy Reukauf is a stylist. He's another angel who introduced me to the manager and owner of Screaming Mimis Vintage clothing and jewelry store in New York. When I brought the work, because they brought the work to a vintage show, and they're showing the work and trying to sell it, she was so enthusiastic and happy and excited. It was nice because it's an extension of my mom, and I miss my mom. I feel like it's that, as opposed to anything ego-based. It's more emotional—now you're going to get me emotional. But it's nice to know because I really miss her, and when I hear people loving her work, it's heartening. It's heart filling.   Sharon: That's a good word, heart-filling. I've heard different things. It's Croninger with a hard g. I've heard that as Croninger with a soft g. Which one is it?   Saudia: Oh lord, that's a good one. It's Cara Croninger with a hard g, but people have called her Croninger with a soft g. People have called her Cara. She's even called herself Cara, but it's Cara Lee. Her Michigan name was Cara Lee Croninger, but it depends on who you are. Are you Dutch? Are you German? Are you from New Jersey?   Sharon: Did she support your career as an artist?   Saudia: Do you mean my dreaming? Yeah, she supported me being a dreaming, silly person, definitely. She put me in dance school. She always thought I should be a painter, actually. She'd say, “You should be a painter,” because I had a natural ability to draw and to work with my hands. After being a child laborer with her, I could make things. But all jokes aside, she was very supportive of me being an artist or whatever it was that I wanted to be, political activist or artist. My sister was an architect. She was very supportive of that. She was beloved by a lot of the young artists who were around Dumbo, our friends, our extended family. She was a positive influence, a positive auntie, elder, second mom, to a lot of people.   Sharon: It sounds like it.   Saudia: Yeah. I shared her as a mom figure with a lot of people.   Sharon: Tell us more about your singing. Do you think of her when you sing?   Saudia: Yeah, I think of her with whatever I do, for sure. There's one song—I think you wrote it down on the question list—It Don't Mean a Thing (If It Ain't Got that Swing), doo wop, doo wop, doo wop, doo wop. I think it was Louis Armstrong. She was working on some kind of saying or branding because she was really into the earrings having a nice swing. She coined it when I was helping her make them. The holes had to be big enough so the lyre could be comfortable enough so the earrings could swing. She incorporated that into some of her branding.   But yeah, I listened to a lot of music growing up. She was very into Judy Collins and Kurt Weill, a wild range. She dated one of the Clancy Brothers—they were very into folk music in the 60s—and my dad and her were into soul and Otis Redding and Taj Mahal and Bonnie Raitt. I'm wandering, but yes.   Sharon: What years was she most popular? It seems like she had a real high.   Saudia: I think the 80s. The minute she started doing the resin stuff, she went into Sculpture to Wear, which was a very prestigious gallery. I'd say the early 70s through the 80s. Then Artwear closed and she was on her own. She did really well in the 90s as well. She was pretty prolific, but I think the 80s were the time when there were tons and tons of fashion articles and fashion shoots with all the supermodels of that time.   Sharon: Talk about wandering, because I'm looking at my list of questions. Tell us how you were involved in making her jewelry. You told us a little bit, but did you ever cut the hearts?   Saudia: The hearts were made in molds. She created molds and poured, and then we would open the rubber molds. I would help sand. I would help drill holes. I can drill a hole. I would help with polishing. Like I said, I would help with finishing work and stringing cords on the hearts. Trying to influence her businesswise, she was not having it.   Sharon: Would she say, “That color doesn't look better in the green. It looks better in the purple,” or something that?   Saudia: No, not really because once something is poured, it's a done deal. That would be like, after you've made 500 brownies, saying, “I wish we had blueberry muffins.” It's too late now.   Sharon: She could say, “Well, you can have it then, and I'll try and sell the purple one,” or something.   Saudia: No, the work was too labor-intensive. Once things were made, you really needed to get them out there. They were like donuts in a way. You need to get them out so they don't go stale. Keep the energy, keep them moving. The only thing she was conflicted about was pricing. There was a point in jewelry where everything—remember when the Y necklaces came out? Everything was really tiny. There was a point where it was trendy to have really tiny jewelry, and that freaked her out because her work was so big and sculptural. She would get freaked out about that kind of stuff. The editors loved her work because it was big and you could see it. It went incredibly with beautiful clothes like Issey Miyake and these avant garde designers. The tiny stuff, you can't see it in an editorial. It's so funny; you'll have a cover article and it'll be like, “Earrings by whomever,” and I'm like, “Where are they? What earrings?”   Sharon: That's interesting. Miyake or Yohji Yamamoto, they're high-end, but they've become very—they're not that valued anymore.   Saudia: Now they're mainstream, yeah.   Sharon: Do you think your mother's jewelry would be considered avant garde today?   Saudia: Yeah, it still is in a way because of the designs and the fact that it was really handmade. She was making her own work. Maybe Lisa would call that studio jewelry. She was in her studio making it herself. She did have a short relationship with a company in Japan where they were making work that would only be sold there. It was fine, but you could really see the difference and feel the difference. It wasn't Cara. It wasn't special, unfortunately. We're grateful that they did it, that she had that relationship and that we could go to Japan and travel there. That was awesome.   So, I think she was avant garde as an artist. I don't agree that Yohji is no longer avant garde. His designs are so beautiful. He's really focused on craftsmanship, having amazing makers creating his work. In a way that is avant garde, as opposed to crap being made. You know what I mean?   Sharon: You're right, 100%.   Saudia: In a factory.   Sharon: I can't think of another one, but there are a lot of designers whose work you can't afford—I'm talking about clothing—who have developed their own less expensive lines.   Saudia: Yeah. I remember when they would call it the junior line, and it would be for the younger kids. It would be lighter and cheaper and faster and funnier and all that. Now there are lots of layers of that, but you have these throwaway clothes being made by companies like H&M and so forth.   Sharon: Do you think she would fit in, like she'd make a smaller version of something that she made large?   Saudia: She did do some smaller things when she was working with the Japanese company. That led her into making some tiny silver hearts and medium-size silver. Then she had to do her big pieces. She could not let go of her love affair with big, sculptural pieces. I think she was conflicted about the McDonaldizing of fashion and accessories. Of course, she wanted to put food on the table, but she was really conscious of the environment. Even though she was working in plastics, she was very conscious of workers and workers' rights. Where does something come from? How is it made, and what's the impact of it being made?   Sharon: It sounds like she carried that through the 80s, into the 90s, into today.   Saudia: Definitely. She definitely had something to do with me being political, her and my father. She was very righteous.   Sharon: I know you do cabaret and rockabilly. What else do you do? What do you sing?   Saudia: My main focus is mental health. It's a really hard time right now, I feel, but I think it's actually a good time to continue to do the rockabilly, but to circle back to the dark cabaret I was doing before the rockabilly. So, I'm working on that. I'm working with a few musicians here in Philly, and I have some shows with musicians in other parts of the country. For Thanksgiving, I'm going to be in Illinois with Patrick Jones and 3 On The Tree. It's a band. We're going to do a rockabilly Thanksgiving tour. Then in March, I'll be in California, in Orange County.   Sharon: Doing what?   Saudia: Doing rockabilly with The Hi-Jivers and Abby Girl. In Orange County, we're going to do just a rockabilly R&B show. Then in April, I'll be with Viva Las Vegas again, which is a rockabilly weekend. I'll do an R&B show and rockabilly. In between, I'm just trying to stay sane, make a living, take care of my mom's work, tell her story. I'm supposedly writing a story about my mom and my dad, sort of a solo show. I don't know if it's a solo show or a documentary, but it's about their relationship as an interracial couple in the 60s and an interracial artist couple.   Sharon: That'll be very interesting   Saudia: They were both known as being difficult people, but most artists are in a way. It takes a lot of energy to do that work, so you can ruffle a lot of feathers. So, that's what I'm doing.   Sharon: I hope I'll get to meet you then. Thank you so much. This was very interesting.   Saudia: Thank you so much. Sharon: Thank you. Well will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey. She would always think about, “What am I going to pour?” It might be a ruby red, which was really popular and beautiful. One of the most popular pours, I think I said in the last interview, was the black and white, where she would have black and white and it would come out in a striped formation. Then she would pour into her different molds, the bangles, the C cuffs, the earrings.   Just as important as the colors were the processes. For the slice earrings, she would pour the layers so it would be striped into a block like a loaf of bread, a small, little, long brownie. Then she would slice it on a bandsaw and you would get to see the stripes. Part of her process was the actual cutting, carving, sanding to get the shapes, and then making the decision whether she was going to have them polished or matte without polish.   Sharon: A mask?   Saudia: Matte, sorry. What the finish would be. If she had faceted bangles or hearts or whatever, she was very aware of not making anything perfect. She used the fact that it had scratches to show the layers of work and to show that it's made by a human. It wasn't something that needed to be absolutely perfect. She was very into wabi sabi, the Japanese art of the imperfect. She loved wavy shapes and asymmetry in her designs.   Sharon: Who did the selling for the first years, when you were getting it off the ground?   Saudia: I was a kid, so I wasn't going to get it off the ground. I was just eating the food she was putting in the refrigerator. When she first started with the leatherwork, she was just going around to different boutiques in the Village or whatever and selling them, either having them buy it straight out or on consignment. I think one of the worker's galleries was the original Sculpture to Wear. That was near where MAD Museum is right now. I'm forgetting the name of the hotel. That was one of her galleries. I'm sure there were other stores I don't know about.   That was in 1971 or something like that. That was very close to when she started working in plastic. She got taken in and accepted really quickly. At that time, Robert Lee Morris was also selling at Sculpture to Wear. He was a wunderkind. He was opening up his own gallery, Artwear, and brought my mother into that gallery. During that time, that also gave the artists recognition and amplified their voices. They were able to have their work in stores in Boston and in California because of being in Artwear.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.    

What you'll learn in this episode: How Saudia is preserving her mom Cara Croninger's legacy Why Cara Croninger's resin and plastic jewelry was—and still is—groundbreaking How Cara Croninger refined her jewelry making process, and why she didn't want her pieces to be perfect What it was like to grow up in an artistic family in the heyday of New York's art jewelry scene How Saudia's mom and dad influenced her music career today   About Saudia Young Saudia Young is a New York City-born actress/singer and storyteller in theater and film. Born on the Lower East Side and brought up between Tribeca and LA, Young explores the notion of home, love, justice, and identity through her art.   The recently repatriated artist lived in Berlin, Germany, for a long chapter of performing, writing, and producing. The Ameripolitan Awards 2023 Female Rockabilly Singer nominee released her 7" single ‘Noir Rockabilly Blues,' produced by Lars Vegas-DE and featuring 'The Wobble' on the A and Iggy Pop's 'Lust for Life' on the B side, in 2017, followed up by her 12” debut ‘Unlovable' in 2018. The LP was recorded live at Berlin, Germany's legendary Lightning Recorders.   Young founded a Dark Kabarett and a Rockabilly Noir Blues band in Berlin, co-created the Lost Cabaret and the Schwarze Liste Kabarett theater projects and wrote and produced the award-winning short film The Gallery. While in Berlin, she was cast in the lead voice-over role of Oskar in School for Vampires (the English version of the Hahn Film cartoon series).   Young co-wrote and performed the solo show Sneaker Revolution and is currently writing a theater/film piece about her actor father, Otis Young, and sculptor/designer mom Cara Croninger. Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Saudia's Website Saudia's Instagram Saudia's Youtube   Transcript:   To jewelry lovers, Cara Croninger was a groundbreaking artist whose work was shown at iconic galleries Artwear and Sculpture to Wear. To musician and actress Saudia Young, she was just mom. Today, Saudia is working to preserve her mother's legacy and secure her place in art jewelry history. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Cara made her pioneering resin jewelry; how Cara's work evolved with the times; and why Saudia thinks of her mom every time she performs. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   Today, we're speaking to my guest, Saudia Young, who is located in Philadelphia. She has an interesting background. Her mother was a very well-known jeweler, and her father was an actor. She was born in New York and grew up between New York and Los Angeles. She is New York material. You will be surprised to hear that she developed a career as an actress, a writer and a singer. She's described as having a whisky voice, and I think that's true, a caramel whisky voice. She was a nominee in 2023.   Saudia: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really glad to come on to your show for the second time. It was the Ameripolitan Music Awards. I was simply nominated for female rockabilly singer. There are lots of different categories and full bands. Jane Rose won for the rockabilly female singer that year. They're moving on, but it was very exciting to come after 15 years in Germany to participate in that. I've met a lot of awesome people because of that.   Sharon: I know you've lived in several places, but I didn't know for 15 years, you say, in Berlin?   Saudia: Yes.   Sharon: Wow! Now you're in Philadelphia this evening.   Saudia: Yes.   Sharon: Is that your home?   Saudia: It is for now. It's where my sister lives. I have a sister from my mother and my father. He had other children, so that's why I clarify that. I'm spending some time with my sister. I've been back and forth in the States since my mom passed in 2019. I'm honestly trying to figure out where I'm going to live. It's not clear because of Covid and my mom passing, but it's been a lot.   Sharon: 15 years being in one place.   Saudia: Yeah, so I'm here for now. I feel like I can't commit to saying this is my home. It's like, “Let's see what it brings. Let's see what happens.” It's great to hang out with my sister. I'm close to my mom's work, which is stored now in Hackensack, New Jersey. I moved it from New York. My mom's work has had more of a tour than I have.   Sharon: Cara Croninger is your mom's name. Even though she passed—I'm very sorry to hear that—she's still very well-known. She has an exhibit in the Smithsonian?   Saudia: No, it's simply her papers, photographs, articles, fashion editorials. As you know, she bridged fashion and art. She was in both worlds. She had a toe or a foot or whatever in both worlds, so she has been accepted into the Archives of American Art at the Smithsonian. That means they have letters, her correspondence to other artists and gallerists and whomever, any type of reviews, sketches, all her boxes of papers and some photographs. It's an honor. It was sad to let that go, but it's also awesome because that means it's helping to secure her legacy.   It will eventually be uploaded digitally so people will be able to look at it. You can go into the archives and look up different artists and see their papers. For example, one of my favorite things were letters from Floriana Frassetto, who founded Mummenschanz and was one of her best friends. She always wrote these beautiful letters to her. She would call her Cara Mia. She was Swiss-Italian. So, it's just that, showing the ephemeral items in her life.   Sharon: You've been on this program before. You were among our first guests—   Saudia: Yeah.   Sharon: If you want to listen to it, it's on TheJewelryJourney.com. We're so glad to have you back again.   Saudia: Thank you.   Sharon: Tell me why your mom's jewelry was different. What was the breakthrough? Why are they keeping her papers?   Saudia: I think because of that bridge. She wasn't craft. She came as a sculptor. Her jewelry was made of acrylic and polyester resin, although she did work in other materials like metals. She started off painting, but the work was always very sculptural and almost avant garde. It went from very organic and indigenous and African influenced to futuristic. It was solidly in the art world, but also solidly in the fashion world when she was with Robert Lee Morris' gallery, Artwear, and before that, Sculpture to Wear.   Artwear blew up and it was very, very popular in the press and in fashion magazines. All the top models were wearing it. People like Iman would come to the gallery openings. It was part of that whole exciting time in the 80s in New York, seeping a little bit into the 90s, but mostly in the 80s. It was in the late 70s and throughout the 80s that they had their heyday. There were other artists in this gallery that are now working and very well-known, like Ted Muehling, Robert Lee Morris himself. Carol Motty, may she rest in peace, was a very, very good friend of my mom. She worked in silicone.   Sharon: I'm sorry. I don't know her.   Saudia: Carol Motty. She did wild, neon-colored, awesome pieces in silicone rubber. She was unique in that it literally was a bridge of art and fashion. That's what she built. I think that was her significance. In terms of the materials, the pieces cost anywhere from $40 to $4,000 or more. She raised the level of this material, which is plastic resin and acrylic, polyester resin, to a very high level. It would get the same price that silver and gold and gemstone jewels would get because of the beauty, the workmanship, that she put into it. The work is known for having this sensual beauty. A lot of the pieces have a wonderful weight. They have a talisman magic to them. People often will collect the pieces. You even collected some pieces.   Sharon: Yeah, I did. I love them.   Saudia: It's kind of magic. She herself as a person was a beautiful, down-to-earth, but funny and effervescent person. People loved meeting her. They loved collecting the work.   Sharon: What was the role you and your sister played?   Saudia: We were her daughters. We did help make work. There were points where we learned how to do the finishing work. We never did the pouring, creating the pigments or the molds, but we could help with finishing. We'd be her child laborers and work on the sanding machine or polishing or drilling holes or what have you. We were able to do finishing work. Because we grew up with it, we understood the shapes and her style, but even growing up with it, there was always some kind of tension. She would say, “That's your style. That's not mine.” It wasn't easy because it was so organic and very unique. That made it hard for her to have people work for her.   Sharon: When you would attend these parties or an opening night at the galleries, did you know who the celebrities of the day were? Were you aware?   Saudia: Yeah, I was in my early 20s or so. At one point, my sister and I both worked at Artwear. We were both looking forward to working with Robert. That was always really fun. Even the artists were celebrities to us because they were so talented and vivacious and positive. I knew a lot of the models, the supermodels, Pat Cleveland and whomever, but since my dad was an actor, I grew up already having certain people in my life. I was trained for that to be not that big of a deal because I just grew up in that.   When my parents met, they were in the Village in the 60s. James Baldwin was a good friend of my dad, and he was allegedly my godfather. It was a smaller world in a way. Definitely, the 60s and even the 80s feel like a more innocent time than now for some reason. I met different celebrities just on my own, and you felt like they were New Yorkers. I knew Jean-Michel Basquiat and I was like, “He's just a kid.” I had no clue.   Sharon: Wow! So, this wasn't a new milieu to you. You knew the big names—I would call them big names—who would come over for dinner. They were around you.   Saudia: Yeah, but it wasn't—now we're going back even before Artwear. It was normal to me. I didn't notice it. It was just part of being a kid in New York, a kid of artists. You know what I mean?   Sharon: But your mother was making this jewelry that I would call groundbreaking. Today we look at it and go, “Oh, it's a piece of plastic,” but it was groundbreaking then.   Saudia: Yeah, it was definitely groundbreaking. I think it still is because there are few people who can work in it, like Patricia von Musulin, who's an amazing artist who works with acrylics. There are some people who can work with it. There's Alexis Bittar, who borrowed a lot of designs from my mom. There are people who can work with it and it's beautiful, but often you see stuff that's mass produced overseas. It doesn't have a good feeling; it just feels cheap. Her work still has this magic weight to it. But as I said, as kids, we didn't know. It was just, “My mom's an artist. She's working at her studio making her stuff.”   Sharon: Was her studio a separate place or was it where you lived?   Saudia: She had many different studios. She had a shared space in Gowanus in Brooklyn, a huge foundry that had 80-foot ceilings that she shared with approximately five other artists. Now, I'm jumping back and forth with timelines. I'm not great with timelines. She had a studio in Dumbo, Brooklyn, at 68 Jay, which was a 2,000-square-foot, awesome studio that she lived in illegally. Our formative years when we were little were on the Lower East Side, but we lived in Tribeca when it was still very industrial. We first started off on Washington Street in an apartment. I think it was a three-bedroom apartment that I recently got to visit again, which was amazing.   She cordoned off a little section of that Astor studio, and then what happened? O.K., when we were at Washington Street, she was able to be one of the resident artists in the Clocktower, which was a studio project where Alanna Heiss was organizing unusual spaces for artists to either create their work or show their work. My mom was one of several artists who were in the Clocktower. That's where she actually met the artist who showed her how to work with plastics. I don't know what his name was.   Sharon: So, she wasn't working with plastic until she met these people?   Saudia: Yeah. She started off painting and doing leatherwork, painting on leather, sewing leather bags, fringe work, Japanese-style obi belts. That's what she started doing first in terms of accessories and crafts.   Sharon: Did your friends know she was a big name, let's say?   Saudia: No, we were all pretty clueless. A lot of our friends were kids of painters. We related to them as workers, like this is what they did for their work. My mom was the lady who made great bread. She made homemade bread, and she made great chicken. People would come over and eat. She was a very social person. We had extended family members, but I don't think my friends thought of her as that famous, not really.   Sharon: I was going to ask you why she wouldn't let you pour, but that made her work. That's her name.   Saudia: I didn't have any desire to pour. As a teenagers, at 18? No desire. I was off doing my own thing. I had my own ways of expressing and my own life. That was her thing.   Sharon: What colors did she like? I've seen some pieces, but I know she had a whole range.   Saudia: She worked in an amazing array of colors. She loved vibrant primary colors. She also worked in colors that were more organic, that were reminiscent of ivory or amber. She would do pours. I think we spoke about this. She would do a pour about once a year. It was always a big deal for her to get the emotional wherewithal to do a pour. Also, I think she was aware of the toxicity. She only wanted to pour during the summer, when the windows could be open and the heat would help the plastic pour faster.  

What you'll learn in this episode: Why artist jewelry is more than just miniature versions of larger work The history of artist jewelry, and how Esther is helping its story continue How Esther helps artists with their first forays into jewelry, and why making jewelry can be a fruitful challenge for fine artists Why an artist's first idea for a piece of jewelry is often not their best Why artist jewelry collectors must be brave About Esther de Beaucé Esther de Beaucé is the founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, France. MiniMasterpiece is a gallery entirely dedicated to contemporary artists, designers and architects' jewelry. The gallery is an invitation given to those who usually never design jewelry because their work evolves on a more monumental scale (i.e. sculptures). Esther's passion is to convince those artists to change the scale of their work and accompany them in that new field of wearable art. She has collaborated with acclaimed contemporary artists such as Phillip King, Bernar Venet, Andres Serrano, Lee Ufan, Jean-Luc Moulène, and Pablo Reinoso. A graduate of Brown University, Esther previously co-owned the gallery Schirman & de Beaucé in Paris, dedicated to young artists of contemporary art. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Website Instagram Transcript: For gallerist Esther de Beaucé, artist jewelry isn't completely art or completely contemporary jewelry. It's in a niche all its own—and that's what makes it fascinating. As founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, she helps fine artists translate their art into jewelry, creating something entirely new rather than a smaller version of their typical work. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she challenges artists to think about their work differently; how interest in artist jewelry has evolved over the years; and why artist jewelry collectors are so open minded. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. I don't remember how I found out about Esther de Beaucé's gallery in Paris. It is tucked back in the corner with other galleries. Welcome back. Do you have collectors, people who like a certain artist or piece they've found in your gallery, and then they come back and look for others, or you send them a postcard telling them, “We're having a show of that artist,” or something like that? Esther: Yes. I have shows at the gallery as well, maybe for a year. Most of the time they are solo shows. I like solo shows a lot because it's like for art, when when you have a solo show, you're surrounded by several pieces of work. You are emerging into their body of work. It's more interesting to me than having one piece by that artist and another piece by another artist. I like solo shows a lot, but solo shows are not easy to make because it means that obviously the artist had several ideas. It takes a lot of time to organize a solo show, but I try to make solo shows most of the time. I invite all my collectors to these shows. It's always difficult to know what's going to happen between a collector and a piece of jewelry, what connection is going to operate at that time. Sometimes collectors choose or fall for an object, and they don't know the artist who's behind it, but they really fall for an object. I really like that idea. Sometimes collectors are very close to an artist, and they have several pieces of that artist in their homes. When they realize that artist has also made a piece of jewelry, then of course they're going to be interested in it. Most of the jewels I have at the gallery, I hope they speak for themselves. You were asking me about collectors and jewelry. Sharon: You answered the question. But do have people who only collect, let's say, Pablo Picasso's jewelry or something that? Esther: Yeah, of course. Some women only wear silver or only wear gold or only wear rings or never wear any brooches. I try to remember all that so I can show them what they like. But I also enjoy presenting them with other things, too, because it's always interesting to make discoveries. And the collectors of artist jewelry are very open-minded people. It takes a lot of, I wouldn't say courage, but it takes a lot of personality to wear something that is different from common jewelry. You have to be strong because you're going to attract looks, and sometimes you have to speak about what you're wearing and answer people's reactions. Sometimes other people can be very narrow-minded, and you have to assume what you chose and what you wear on your body. So, this type of collector, they're very interesting to welcome. What I mean is that even though they have their taste, they are easy to counsel as well because they have that curiosity. They want to learn, and they want to see so much. So, they are very interesting people. Sharon: Do they go on to start liking the artist's other things, their paintings or drawings, after they started with the jewelry? Esther: Yes, of course. I have a lot of jewels at the gallery, but I also have a lot of books, and those books help me explain the artist's work at large. Often, when I can, I try to offer a book to accompany the jewel to give them more background on the artist. Yeah, definitely. Sharon: Do you make jewelry yourself? Did you ever make jewelry yourself? Esther: No. Never. Maybe as a kid playing with leaves and flowers, but that's it. Or pasta. Sharon: What did you study? When you were in the States, did you think about opening a gallery in France? Esther: No, I studied anthropology. I really wanted to work as an anthropologist, but it didn't happen. After that first art experience that ended in 2012, I wanted a new project working with artists. I had seen the year before, in 2011, a great artist jewelry show at the MAD in New York. That was actually my mother's collection of artist jewelry. I went to New York for her opening, and it was the first time that I saw her collection in the museum environment, and I was so impressed. I started thinking of a new project for myself, and this show in New York was really—how would you say— Sharon: Eye opening. Esther: That's it. Eye opening and a decision-making moment. And as I came back to Paris, I started really talking about it and organizing my professional life to make it possible. Sharon: That's interesting. When you said your mother was a collector, I thought, “Well, she must have started early, before anybody was wearing it or knew about it.” Today, more and more people know about it, but then she probably didn't have a lot of friends who were collecting the same thing. Esther: Yeah, for sure. That show was 12 years ago, but she started collecting artist jewelry 40 years ago. There are few women in the world who have done the same thing. There are few. It's a large and important collection. She focused on that in a professional way. Sharon: When you said that you thought it was a more active field in the 60s and 70s and then it sort of died down, why do you think that was? Esther: It's a matter of different elements. I think it was in 1969, there was a great show at the MOMA in New York on artist jewelry that's never happened since. You also had great artists, jewelry editors at that time in Italy. You had GianCarlo Montebello, who was a goldsmith and an editor, and he worked with fantastic artists like Fontana and the Pomodoro brothers. Montebello made fantastic pieces. In the south of France, you had François Hugo, who was a very important goldsmith as well. He's the one who made all the jewelry by Max Ernst and Man Ray and Picasso and Dorothea Tanning. Sometimes it's just a matter of a few people. They really made the artist jewelry world very active at the time, but then they stopped and did something else, so it went quiet again. Hopefully, it's getting more intense now, but you need people behind it. Once these people do something else, then it dies a little bit. And then you have a new generation of editors and it starts again. Sharon: By editor you also mean curator, right? It's a curator. Esther: Also, yeah. By editor I mean what I do personally, but what also has been done by Luisa Guinness or Elisabetta Cipriani or Marina Filippini, those active editors, meaning you invite artists to make jewelry pieces. This is what I called editor. This is what I do. Sharon: Do you only wear art jewelry that you have in your gallery or that an artist has made, or do you wear “normal” jewelry? Esther: It might sound weird to you, but I'm a low-key person. I'm a discreet person. When I'm at the gallery every day, I choose a piece of work and I wear it all day in the gallery with an immense pleasure. But when I go out, when I go to a dinner party or visit a show, I don't wear jewelry. It might sound funny, but I wouldn't want people to think I am always promoting what I do and my work. Imagine a regular art dealer. He wouldn't go to an art fair or to a to a dinner party carrying with him a painting or a sculpture. When I go out wearing a jewel from the gallery, I feel like I'm still working, and I don't like that idea. I don't want people to imagine that I'm always trying to sell jewelry. So, in dinner parties, I'm very often the only woman not wearing any piece of jewelry, which is very stupid. But yeah, this is me. Sharon: That's interesting. Has anybody ever stopped you on the street and said, “That's a really interesting necklace you have on”? Esther: Yeah, but not very often because when you see me on the street, I don't have it on me. Of course, on special occasions I do, but I mostly wear artist jewelry in the gallery, and it's a great pleasure to do so. I change every day and wear several of them because it's very important for people to see those jewels on the body. A piece of jewelry on the body is very different from a photo of a jewel. You really need to see how it goes on the neck or on the finger. It really makes it alive. So, to see me with artist jewelry, you have to come to the gallery. If you see me on the street, you would not really see any artist jewelry on me. I was telling you about collectors and how they are strong-minded, and I'm probably more shy. Sharon: Well, based on the collection in your gallery, I wouldn't call you shy. I'm curious, when you get dressed in the morning, do you walk to the gallery without anything on and then you put something on when you come to the gallery? Esther: Well, I have my clothes on, obviously, but I choose clothing that will fit the best with jewelry. I have funny pants and funny shoes, but I always have black or white tops. When you have too much information on a sweater or shirt, sometimes it draws away the attention from the jewel. So, this is something I pay attention to in the morning. This is why I have funny shoes but not funny outfits too much. Sharon: How do you describe what you do if somebody says, “Well, what do you do?” when you're at a party? Esther: I have a neighbor who's a great contemporary art gallerist, and he was introducing me to a friend of his a few days ago at an art fair. He said, “This is Esther, and she's doing the most rare job in the art world.” And I was like, “This is an interesting way of putting what I'm doing.” It's true that I am part of the art scene, yet it's such a tiny niche. This is how he saw and how he described my job. But I would say that what I do is invite those who never make jewelry because they are sculptors, and I ask these people, who are not jewelry specialists, to make a jewelry piece for the gallery. This is how I like to speak of my job. Otherwise, I say that I'm an artist jewelry editor, but then sometimes you have to give more explanations than just those three words. It doesn't explain well enough. So, to make it more clear, I usually say that I invite those who never make jewelry. Sharon: Do you consider yourself part of the art scene or jewelry? Are you part of the art world or the jewelry world? Esther: It's a tricky question. I'm part of the two, but the artists I work with are not part of the jewelry world. Obviously, they are a part of the art world, and through our collaboration, I bring them to the jewelry world. But I would say I'm maybe 80% from the art world and 20% from the jewelry world. I think artist jewelry is very interesting because it offers a new perspective on jewelry and contemporary jewelry. Because the artists I work with have nothing to do with jewelry, most of the time they're going to bring something new to the jewelry world, new ideas, new possibility. This is what makes it very interesting for the jewelry world. At the same time, I think the invitation I make to those artists is also both a challenge and recreation time. It has to be fun and it has to be, for them, a means to work with new material like silver and gold. It's a new experience for them. The invitation also has to feed them, in the way that it has to bring them something new and challenging. Otherwise, it's not interesting for them. I really try to value that new experience for them. Sharon: That's interesting what you're saying. Do you have to say some of that? Do you have to convince some of the artists that it will be interesting for them? Esther: When I invite them, I say all those things. I don't even wait for them to need me to convince them. I say it all at once, that my invitation is full of all these aspects. Of course, it's going to be difficult for them to find a good idea, yet I'm here to accompany them, and the goldsmiths that I chose and that I work with are extraordinary people. It's a great gift that I give to artists, to be able to work with these people, because they are fantastic goldsmiths and very interesting people to work with. Sharon: Do any of the artists ever call you and say, “Esther, I just don't have an idea. I don't know what to do. I've drawn 14 things, and I just don't like them.” What do you do then? Esther: Yeah, of course. It happens. Sometimes they need a little more time. I don't put any pressure on them. When they're ready, they're ready. Sometimes when they are very focused on an idea that I don't believe too much in, I make a prototype just so that I can show them the prototype and explain to them why I don't think it's strong enough. Sometimes they have to see it for real. This is sometimes something that I do. Okay, you really want to make this? I am going to show you what it looks like, and then we can continue our conversation. Sharon: Did you ever consider, before you started this or when you were thinking about what to do after the other gallery, did you think about selling a different kind of jewelry? Esther: No, I'm very busy with the jewels already. There are many contemporary jewelers that come to me, and sometimes I really fall for their work because there are many great contemporary jewelers. But I try to restrain myself. Sometimes I buy a piece for my own pleasure. But the gallery's story is something different, and I try to remain on that path because there is still a lot to do on it. I want to focus on that story for now. Sharon: So, you're saying if somebody comes in and shows you something that you don't think is on the path, let's say, you might buy it for yourself. You might like it. Esther: Of course, it has happened. Yeah, it has happened. But I have to tell you that I spend all my money on producing the artist jewels, because I produce myself. I pay the goldsmith who's going to work with the artist, so this is taking a lot of the gallery's budget. I don't have that much money left for buying other kinds of jewelry. But it has happened that I do. Sharon: Does the artist sign the piece? Do you both sign it, or do you sign it? Esther: No, no, no, I never sign. It's the artist's signature on it, of course. On certificates, I just add that it has been edited by Galerie MiniMasterpiece. Sharon: How did you come up with the name of the gallery, MiniMasterpiece? Esther: It was a conversation with my mother and my stepfather. We were looking for a name, and we wanted it to be linked to the art world more than the jewelry world. MiniMasterpiece is not a bad name. It is a reference to masterpieces, so to art. It has the mini, obviously, so it's a small work of art. But who knows? Maybe in the future I will find another name. But for now, it's this one. Sharon: It's a great name. I was just wondering how you came up with it. Mini seems very American, or very English and not very French. That's all. That's why I'm asking. Esther: Actually, masterpiece is obviously an English name, because we would say in French chef-d'œuvre. But mini is something that is used in French also. Sharon: Okay. So, the contemporary jewelry. I might do really interesting contemporary jewelry. I don't, but let's say I do, but I don't do pictures and drawings. Esther: Well, then you're not really what I'm interested in, because I like the idea that there is a movement from another body of work, and a movement from that body of work to jewelry. I like working with non-specialists. I think it makes projects very interesting. To me, this is the story I want to tell, those rare moments when a piece of jewelry is going to be possible for those artists. It's not their specialty. They're not doing this all the time. It remains rare. It's just from time to time. I like that idea. Sharon: Have they come to you and said, “I want to put gems in this piece,” or has an artist who's making the jewelry said, “I want to put gems”? Esther: No, very, very rarely because to them, gems are very linked to classic jewelry, to contemporary jewelry, and they don't want to use the same vocabulary. They are more into material and shapes and volumes than in gems. Sharon: Have you ever had the artists come in and describe their work? Do the artists come to the solo shows that you have and describe the work they do? Esther: Yeah, during the opening, of course all artists are present. Or if we make a special appointments, of course. Sharon: So, the artist says, “Yes, I want to make the jewelry for you.” What's the next step? Esther: The next step is them finding the good idea. Once they have ideas, we start the conversation and we discuss what's feasible, what's not feasible. We keep a few ideas, and then we go to the goldsmith and we discuss with them what's possible. Slowly it builds up. The first thing is the idea. Sharon: You come to the goldsmith or silversmith to say, “The artist is thinking about doing a loop. Can you do that?” Esther: No, we go to the goldsmith with a prototype or a maquette. The piece is there already. It's not in silver, it's not in gold, but it exists. Sharon: Do they ever look at you in surprise, the goldsmith? Esther: Yes, obviously, but after 12 years, less and less. They're like, “It's going to be very difficult, but it's going to work out.” They are less and less surprised. They know me now, and they know the artist. Sharon: A few last stray questions. Did you open in the courtyard where you are? Did you open the gallery where you are? Have you moved locations? Esther: No, I have been here the whole time. Sharon: And what would you say keeps your attention about jewelry, or artist jewelry, after doing it for so long? Esther: I think my motivation and my love is still very strong, and maybe stronger and stronger because the artists themselves have new ideas very often. So, the story continues, and I also invite new artists. I have all these parallel collaborations, so it's very enriching for me. Also, the relationship I have with collectors is very nice and very interesting because I am also building with them their collection. We're all growing up together, and this is what makes it very special. And maybe after 12 years, I'm also doing my job in a better way, with a better understanding of the project and a better understanding of what collectors are expecting. It's still a challenge and it's still a risky business, but I wouldn't do anything else. I wouldn't know what to do. I'm my own boss. I do what I want. I have to carry it all, but it's a great job. I'm very happy with what I do, and being surrounded by all these great artists is fabulous. Also getting that story more well-known and broadening the public for artist jewelry is a fantastic challenge. I love challenges. Sharon: If you love challenges, you picked a good field for a challenge. Esther, thank you so much for being with us today. Esther: You for inviting me, Sharon. Thank you very much. I enjoyed very much talking to you. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you'll learn in this episode: Why artist jewelry is more than just miniature versions of larger work The history of artist jewelry, and how Esther is helping its story continue How Esther helps artists with their first forays into jewelry, and why making jewelry can be a fruitful challenge for fine artists Why an artist's first idea for a piece of jewelry is often not their best Why artist jewelry collectors must be brave About Esther de Beaucé Esther de Beaucé is the founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, France. MiniMasterpiece is a gallery entirely dedicated to contemporary artists, designers and architects' jewelry. The gallery is an invitation given to those who usually never design jewelry because their work evolves on a more monumental scale (i.e. sculptures). Esther's passion is to convince those artists to change the scale of their work and accompany them in that new field of wearable art. She has collaborated with acclaimed contemporary artists such as Phillip King, Bernar Venet, Andres Serrano, Lee Ufan, Jean-Luc Moulène, and Pablo Reinoso. A graduate of Brown University, Esther previously co-owned the gallery Schirman & de Beaucé in Paris, dedicated to young artists of contemporary art. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Website Instagram Transcript: For gallerist Esther de Beaucé, artist jewelry isn't completely art or completely contemporary jewelry. It's in a niche all its own—and that's what makes it fascinating. As founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, she helps fine artists translate their art into jewelry, creating something entirely new rather than a smaller version of their typical work. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she challenges artists to think about their work differently; how interest in artist jewelry has evolved over the years; and why artist jewelry collectors are so open minded. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. I don't remember how I found out about Esther de Beaucé's gallery in Paris. It is tucked back in the corner with other galleries. I don't know, unless you are looking for it, if you would find it easily. It was an intentional destination for me both times I've been there. It is very hard to find. I was determined that I was going to find it, and after a little bit of time I did find it. It is a very cozy and comfortable gallery, and Esther herself is easy to talk to. The gallery specializes in jewelry designed by artists. Some are French, some are Italian, and I'm sure there are others. The prices are very reasonable compared with other shops with jewelry by artists where you find a pretentious atmosphere. Esther speaks English flawlessly, having attended Brown College, and she has been on the podcast before, many moons ago. I'll let her tell you the rest of the story. Esther, welcome to the program. Esther: Hello, Sharon. Thank you for having me today. Sharon: I'm so glad to have you. So, why did you choose to sell jewelry by artists? Esther: I wanted to work with artists, contemporary artists, because before MiniMasterpiece, I had a first gallery also in Paris, working with young artists on paintings and sculptures and drawings. That gallery had to end, and my obsession was continuing working with artists because I really enjoyed that, that work, but I had to find another way. There are many art galleries in Paris, and I wanted to find a more special way to work with them. I knew of artist jewelry, and there aren't many places in the world and in Paris, either, for artist jewelry. So, this is how I started. Sorry, I think I said enough. Sharon: No, please, go ahead. Esther: So, at first, it was more for the pleasure of working with artists than that of making jewelry. After 12 years, I became very fond of jewelry, of course. I wouldn't say exactly the same thing, but back in time, 12 years ago, it was really my love for artists. Sharon: It was your love for artists. How was it changing from the drawings and the paintings and all of that to jewelry? Was it natural? Was it different? Esther: Yeah, it's a challenge for them, of course, when I invite them to think of their work at a different scale. They have to think of the body, which most of the time they never do because when you make a sculpture or a painting or a photograph, obviously it's not to be worn. But this time it was a big challenge for them and also for me, because 12 years ago I knew little about jewelry making itself. We both had to learn. It was a challenge for them, and it was also a challenge for me. But I knew that it was possible because it's a story that goes back in time for about a century now, with Picasso and Calder and Giacometti, all those great visual artists who made a few wearable art pieces on the side of their main activity. Sharon: Was it scary for you to start asking artists if they would do their jewelry, if they would make jewelry? Esther: I started asking those artists I knew personally because they were family friends, or I had worked with them in the past with that former gallery I had. So, I didn't take many risks the first year. Then I got more brave and I started to ask other artists. I only ask those artists where I like the work. I am a big fan of their monumental work. They are mostly sculptors. It's because I like their sculpture, but I think of inviting them to make a sculpture to wear. Sharon: Do they look at you funny, like, “What are you talking about?” Or, “I don't understand what you mean”? Esther: Most of them understand the idea. I've had several artists say no, but not that many. Sometimes they even thought about making a jewelry piece but never had the occasion to do so because they need to be surrounded by the good people. Very often they need to be accompanied by a goldsmith because they haven't mastered the work of gold or silver, so they need help on that matter. But once you invite them and tell them about that great story and how many artists have worked on that subject in the past, and that you can take them to the right goldsmiths that can help them understand their project, then it's much easier for them to accept. Sharon: And have they ever rejected you and just said, “Forget it. That's weird”? Esther: Yeah, of course they have. Sometimes it's because they don't get a good idea. Finding the right idea is not that easy. Sometimes they don't have time. Sometimes it's not a good time for them to spend some energy on that project. And of course, I understand that perfectly. In very, very, very few cases, sometimes they don't take jewelry very seriously. They have that image of jewelry being something not serious. But there are many artists I can invite, and those who don't want to play with me, it's no big deal. Sharon: Do you leave it to them to decide if it's a bracelet or a ring or a necklace or what they're going to make? Esther: Yes, of course. I open possibilities for them as wide as they want at the beginning. Then once they have ideas, we talk. Once it gets more precise, if they are going to make only one piece of jewelry, sometimes I advise them to think of a ring or a necklace because they are the most iconic type of jewels. If they have several ideas, then why not add a bracelet or earrings? But if they have to make only one, I usually recommend them to make a necklace. Also, because a necklace leaves more volume and space for them to express themselves. Sometimes it's very difficult for them to condense their work into a very tiny piece. A necklace is bigger. Sharon: What do you say to them if they say, “Esther, I'm a sculptor. I don't know how to make this small”? What do you say? Esther: I say that what I'm interested in is the DNA of their work. An idea has no size. Basically, it would be the same as making a very large sculpture. But when they are invited by a museum or a gallery, they are given a space to make. Sometimes they make a sculpture especially for that space, a museum or a gallery. I just tell them, “Well, this time you have to make a piece of a sculpture for the body.” It is just another way of thinking, and artists like to be challenged. It's a very big challenge for them, but they are very often excited by that challenge. Sharon: Are they doing other things? Are they making the jewelry for your gallery, and they're working on a sculpture or painting at the same time? It might be a different subject, but I'm wondering. Esther: Yes. I think they're on different topics at the same time. Also, when they have to think of making a wearable sculpture, sometimes it helps them to think of a new idea for a monumental work. This is something they have said to me on various occasions, that going from big to small and then back to big is also interesting for them. Sometimes it has an impact on how they think big afterwards. Sharon: You're located in the antique district in Paris, right? Esther: Yes. Not only antiques. It's called the Carré Rive Gauche. It's a very special geography because it's like a square with about six streets. It's very unique in the world because in that square you have about 120 galleries and antique shops of different specialties. You have contemporary art, you have antiques, you have Chinese art, African art, glass works, silver works. It's very unique to have such a strong—how would you say that—density of art shops. It's not like—you know the Marais? The Marais is another district that is very focused on contemporary design and contemporary art. Carré Rive Gauche and Saint-Germain-des-Prés reunites a wider range of art galleries, and I really like that mix. I feel very comfortable in that. It's a very enriching environment. Sharon: From the beginning did you know that was where you wanted to be? Esther: Yes, because it's the neighborhood where I grew up, and I'd never had a professional project in that area. And it's a lovely neighborhood. I love it. A lot of tourists as well still go to Saint-Germain-des-Prés. There aren't many places for rent, and sometimes they are very expensive. This is also why I'm in a courtyard, where you have to find your way through. But once you've been here for the first time, then it's easy to come back. There are many courtyards like this in Paris, and it's also the Parisian charm of finding the remote places. I like that idea. Sharon: It is very charming, and the Parisian charm is both in your gallery and the courtyard around it. Do you get people stumbling in? Tourists or French people who are just wandering around who find the gallery? Esther: Yes, of course. I have a sign on the street also. There are actually three different galleries in the courtyard, so we have a sign on the street with the name of the galleries. The large doors are open all day long, and there are many plants. I have random people coming very often, for sure. Sharon: When did you become attracted to jewelry? Esther: As a kid, because my mother is a great collector of artist jewelry, and I learned a lot from her. Since I was a kid, I've seen her wearing those weird pieces of jewelry that were artist jewelry only, no stones, no diamonds, only artist jewelry. That was very different from my friends' mothers, obviously. So, it was very natural to me, but I never imagined myself being a professional in that area because it was hers. But I found a way of making it mine because she's a collector and I'm an editor. I make new projects. Sometimes when she likes them, she gets them for her collection, but not always. So, I found a way of having my own role in artist jewelry different from hers. But I was really fed by her passion as a kid. Sharon: Did you think you were going to draw or paint professionally? What did you imagine yourself doing? Esther: No, I have no artistic talent myself. I really love working with artists and I'm the person next to them, but I have no desire to create myself. Even after 12 years of MiniMasterpiece, I have no desire to make jewelry myself. Artists come up with such great ideas all the time that I really don't have to think about this myself. But they need me for other things, so I'm happy to take care of all the rest. Sharon: When you say they need you for other things, I was thinking you are creative. You couldn't guide them, right? Esther: Yes, but I don't have the idea. I know how to make their ideas grow and make it possible, but it's really their work. The starting point is their work and their idea. I make it possible after that. Sharon: Who decides if it is going to be a limited edition and there are only a few? Who decides how many there are going to be? Esther: It's a tricky question. I discuss it with the artist, and we take into consideration the costs of their making, obviously. Sometimes it's a series of unique pieces. I've done that on several occasions. So, it's not really an edition; it's a series of 10 unique pieces, for example. Most of the time we make 10 or 12 different numbers of the same piece to stick to what is commonly made in sculptures. So, most of the jewels from the gallery run in an edition of 10 or 12 pieces. Sharon: You started to say that 30, though, is the limit to call it a limited edition, right? Esther: Yes, 30 is the maximum for us to call it an original piece of work. Most of the time after 30, it's not an original piece of work. I don't know how you would call it, but it would be just a regular edition. It's very rare that I go above 30. It has happened in the past, because sometimes museum shops call me for a special edition if they have a show of that artist running and they want to have a piece of jewelry in their shops. This is a very special project for me, and in that case, we make a larger edition. But this is very site specific. Sharon: How do you find the artists? Do you go to parties to look for them? Do you go to galleries? How do you find them? Esther: I go to art shows and exhibitions for the most time. When I find an artist whose work I like very much, then I try to find a way to contact him or her. But the first thing for me is to grasp and understand and like their work. After that, I try to find a possible way to get in contact with them. Sharon: Do they ever approach you first? Esther: Yes, it has happened, of course. There's a great Chinese sculptor in France called Wang Keping, with whom I've had the chance to work for the past four years. I met him at an art fair, and it was a great encounter because he's a fabulous man and a fantastic artist. It was a great, almost random encounter. Sharon: But he came to you. You looked at his work and liked his work, and he came to you? Esther: Yes. I was about to go to him, and then we met and he also wanted to discuss with me. So it was a random encounter, and it ended very well. Sharon: What is the overall state of artist jewelry—well, there are two questions—and art jewelry in France? Esther: What's the difference for you between artist jewelry and art jewelry? Sharon: That's an interesting question. I guess artist jewelry is by somebody who, it isn't their primary medium. They do painting and sculpture, and once in a while they do a pin or a ring or whatever. And the other is jewelers who do different jewelry. Esther: Yeah. It's their specialty. Making jewelry is their specialty. Sharon: Yes. Esther: So, you would call that art jewelry? Sharon: Yes. Esther: Okay. Sharon: I would call both art jewelry. But the artist jewelry— Esther: Yes. Well, I know of art jewelry, but not as well as artist jewelry, obviously, because only artist jewelry is my specialty. So, I wouldn't be able to speak of art jewelry as well. For artist jewelry, I think it's getting better because there are more editors working on the subject and inviting new artists, so it's more dynamic. It seems that in the 60s and in the 70s, the market for artist jewelry in France and in the world was more dynamic than in the 80s, in the 90s, in the early 2000s. For the past 15 years, maybe, it's getting more dynamic because new editors have started working on the subject. Museum shows have also taken place thanks to great collectors that are organizing shows on their collections. Books also have come out. So, slowly, I think it's getting more dynamic. But still, it's a story that needs to be explained more, and a lot of people don't know about it yet. So, it's also our mission to explain that story and to tell and to show. I think it's also the case for art jewelry. There aren't that many galleries and places in Paris that sell art jewels. I'm looking forward to the years to come because I believe it's going to get more and more dynamic. Sharon: Are the people who come, who assemble on your gallery, are they coming because they think, “Oh, it's jewelry. I want to look at diamonds and pearls,” and you have to explain what it is? Esther: Yes, all the time. All the time. Sometimes I talk for five, 10 minutes explaining the concept of the gallery, and they look at me and say, “Oh, so you are making the jewelry.” And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not making the jewelry. I invite those who never make jewelry, and I ask them for a special project for the gallery. So, it takes a lot of energy explaining. Of course, some people know of that story, so it makes it easier for me. But I also like the challenge of getting that story more well-known and convincing women and men that this is also part of the jewelry world. It's not because the piece of jewelry doesn't have stones or diamonds that it's not worth it. Then we talk about value and what makes a jewel precious or not precious. So, it leads to interesting conversation. But it takes a lot of my time explaining that. Sharon: You said something I have to think about because I'm not sure I've thought about it, and that is that artist jewelry is part of the jewelry world. Esther: Of course. Sharon: Yeah. If you had asked me 10 minutes ago, I would have said yes, but I really would have had to think about it. Esther: It's contemporary jewelry, and contemporary jewelry has different compartments. I don't know how you would say that, but a small part of contemporary jewelry is that of artist jewelry, because it's being made today. So, for me, it's definitely part of it. Sharon: Do you ever have shows, meaning you take your gallery, the artist jewelry, and you cart it somewhere and show it?  Do you put it out for people to look at? Esther: You mean outside the gallery? Sharon: Yeah. Esther: Yes. Several times a year I try to be in fairs. I've never shown in a jewelry fair because I've always want to place the jewelry in a design or contemporary art background. So, I always try to show in design or art fairs, which is not always easy because there aren't that many art fairs, for example, that leave space for art jewelry. So, it's a tricky thing for me, to find a good place outside of the gallery to show that kind of jewelry. Although artist jewelry is part of art jewelry and contemporary jewelry at large, it's a bit different. I'm trying to connect it. I want the connection with the art and design world to be very strong, more than that of jewelry at large. I want to place it into an art environment as much as possible, so also for fairs. Sharon: What if you don't like the first drawing or the first couple of drawings of something that an artist shows you for a ring, let's say, or a bracelet? What do you do? Esther: If I don't like it, it's very often because it doesn't look like them. It's not connected well enough to their work, to what they are. Sometimes the first idea they have is an idea of a jewel, but it's more than just making a jewel. It's making their work into a jewel, you know? So, sometimes the first idea is not the right one, but it's not because it wouldn't make a nice jewel. It would. But you wouldn't recognize their work in that small piece. And it's very important for me that the link is very strong. But for me, a good artist jewel is not a reduction of a bigger project. This is not very interesting, to make very small exactly what you make in large. It has to be a new project, yet you have to recognize the artist's work. This is the biggest challenge in the making of an artist jewel. Sharon: I'm thinking, and I can't remember his name, that the Spanish sculptor who makes puzzles. He makes them large and he makes small, little pendants and things like that. He's Spanish. Esther: Maybe he's Franco-Argentinian, Pablo Reinoso? Sharon: No, that's not his name. But has Reinoso been part of your sculptures, your gallery? Esther: Yes, among many other ones. But, you know, I walked the path of artist jewelry for 12 years, and I've also evolved on that path. What I think today might be different than what I thought in the past, and it's the same for artists. I know their first idea is going to be nice, but maybe it's not going to be as interesting as the second idea or as the third idea. But I also have to respect their rhythm, that it's going to take a bit of time and that they have to grasp the idea of jewelry. Because this is so new to them, you also have to be patient. Sharon: Do you make the first or second drawing they have, even if you don't like it, and then you wait for them? Esther: No, I ask them to work hard for the first project as well, but I notice sometimes that the first project is very nice and interesting, yet the second one or the third one or the fourth one is even more interesting because it—how would I say that—it is more demanding. It is maybe less commercial. I have the feeling that the artist and myself have walked that path a bit more as it gets more interesting. It's also more demanding for the collector. It's really from the artist to the collector. I'm sure you're not the same collector today as you were 30 years ago. And maybe what you choose to wear today or what you assume to wear today is different from many moons ago. I think we all go through that path, and it's very interesting. It doesn't mean that what you make at first is not interesting, but you have to go through all these steps. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How studying and apprenticing abroad helped Ilona push the limits of her work How objects carry memories, and why that can influence someone's desire to buy a vintage piece Why the most important thing a gallerist can do is choose pieces that resonate with them How art jewelry galleries create a channel of communication from artist to wearer to observer Why jewelry artists have more freedom that other types of artists   About Ilona Schwippel Ilona Schwippel has run the gallery Viceversa, in Lausanne, Switzerland, with her husband Christian Balmer for 20 years. She holds a bachelor in product design, jewelry and accessories from the High School of Arts and Design (HEAD) in Geneva and a diploma in luxury creations and artistic crafts from the University of Geneva. Since 2017, Ilona has lectured at the University of Applied Science, in Lucerne, in the XS Schmuck department.   Additional Resources: Vice Versa Website Vice Versa Instagram Vice Versa Facebook   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript Gallerists have a unique position in the jewelry world as the connectors between artist and wearer—and Ilona Schwippel holds sacred this responsibility. As co-owner of jewelry gallery Viceversa in Lausanne, Switzerland, she is always looking for the pieces that resonate with her and her clients. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why jewelry carries the memories of its previous owners; why jewelry gives artists more freedom than any other medium; and how giving context to a piece can change a customer's perception of it—for better or worse. Read the episode transcript here.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.   I went on Art Jewelry Forum's trip to Switzerland to find Swiss jewelers that I didn't know about. Art Jewelry Forum has an international trip every year, and they're usually very interesting and very good. There I met Ilona Schwippel and her partner, Christian, who are owners of the gallery Viceversa. Welcome back.   If you see somebody who is interested and keeps looking at the piece, they keep coming back and looking at it, let's say, do you then explain what the artist was trying to do?   Ilona: If I have the chance, which I think is great and I really appreciate, I tell him the first time, or I tell that person my idea and the context of the piece at the very beginning. It depends on the person sometimes, how open they are at the moment to see what kind of discussion, what kind of dialogue we can have, whether the person wants to hear it or not. This is always very unpredictable.   Sharon: Do you think art jewelry tells a deeper story than other kinds of jewelry?   Ilona: I think so. Yes, absolutely. I also think that a piece of contemporary jewelry tells a very different story to the observer once its worn. It's a different kind of communication.   Sharon: It's interesting. It's probably true that once it's worn, it tells a different story. Do you concentrate on certain artists? Do they have to be known? Are they up-and-comers? Any particular kind of artist?   Ilona: We have both. Next spring, for example, we will prepare an exhibition with Karl Fritsch. We've been working with him for many, many years. Maybe it's the third or fourth solo exhibition that we've done with him. It's always incredible how he continues to surprise us by only making rings. This is really incredible.   Sharon: Karl Fritsch?   Ilona: Karl Fritsch. For instance, sometimes he works with already existing jewelry, and he interferes; he changes the piece in my eyes. He doesn't only change the aspect of the piece by enhancing it or by improving the design in a humoristic way, the way they improve the design of very classical pieces with fantastic design. Some of them have just been turning the piece into something else, and they said it was like improving the piece.   With Karl Fritsch, I think he is somewhere else. What I think is really interesting and very touching is that he changes it. For example, he takes an existing ring—each ring has a story. Each ring has its pedigree in terms of ownership. Sometimes you know; sometimes you don't. Some people want to know; some people absolutely don't want to know. What I think is interesting in his work is he takes this ancient piece, for example, and he changes the path of this ring. It doesn't continue its way of living from owner to owner in a straight way. He takes a very sharp, radical turn. All of a sudden, it's not only the piece that changes; it's many things. The definition of the owner changes. I think that's a very interesting part of his work.   Sharon: I'm surprised to hear people don't want to hear what it was originally and what it means today. Why wouldn't people want to know? Do you have any idea?   Ilona: Maybe they're just more comfortable with something unknown than to know the stories. They would like to wear the piece, but they don't want to carry the story of the piece or the story of the ancient owner with them. I think there is a very strong relationship between the owner and jewelry. Some pieces are really marked by the story of the ancient owner. It's something personal.   There's this German-Vietnamese philosopher who is talking about objects. They are a souvenir of people, of situations. That's where he says it's a dramatic difference between data and tangible objects. I think objects really have the capacity to carry on memories, and I can understand that not everybody is comfortable with that. I think this is an incredible quality of jewelry.   Sharon: If somebody comes to you and they want to exhibit or have their pieces in the gallery, does it matter to you if nobody has ever heard of them if you like the piece?   Ilona: If you like the work, yes. The distinction between pieces of work—as a gallery, we like to build up a long-term relationship with the artists. We love following the work, seeing the evolution of the artist and seeing the new work in relation to the pieces that were there before. If you see only one piece, it's difficult to read, and it's difficult to talk about the universe. I think it's always exciting and important to see the universe, to have a body of work. Not just single pieces, but a body of work that tells a story. Then, if the person is known or unknown, it doesn't matter. It's about the quality and the content of this body of work.   Sharon: So, if they want to exhibit in your gallery but they only bring one work or one piece, you tell them to come back and show four or five so you get the connection.   Ilona: Yeah, and it's also to know about the artist's aim, about the content of the pieces, to feel the intention of the artist, why he or she did these pieces. Why do these pieces exist? Why was it important to create them? Why do they have to exist?   Sharon: Has it changed your mind when they bring one piece and you think, “Oh, well, that's not so great,” but then they bring four or five and it's the connection you see?   Ilona: Yes, absolutely. You can really see a story and also see it more in depth. With one piece, it's more difficult to see the depth of the intention. If it's only one piece, it's less evident, maybe.   Sharon: You operate the gallery with your husband. Do you have a division of labor? Do you look at the pieces and he writes the catalogue?   Ilona: A lot of things we do together. This gallery is something really personal. It's also incredible that each gallery you visit is so different from the other. It reflects the passion of each gallerist. I think it's important that Christian and I work together. There are many questions we have to discuss, to talk about the artist, about the pieces and the exhibitions we would like to build up. Inside, we do some tasks separately for sure, but a lot of decisions we have to make together. It's very enriching to have discussions about artists' work that we don't agree on. This is very interesting.   Sharon: Can you walk into different galleries and feel a different—I don't know what to call it—an air, a different feeling when you go into different galleries? Some of them are passionate and some are more utilitarian, let's say. Can you tell?   Ilona: I think so, yes. I think it really reflects the gallerist who made this choice. I think it's important that you see that. It's not important that you see the difference, but it is important that the choice of the pieces and the works of the artists is something authentic with the gallerist.   Sharon: I guess I skipped a question. I wanted to ask why you like art jewelry.   Ilona: Good question. I think I'm fascinated with the power that pieces have, the power of this non-personal communication. I think there are two aspects. On the one hand, I am aware as a wearer, so I want to make these pieces on my body communicate to the person in front of me. It's like being a team with this piece of art. We have the same bond; we have the same message to give.   On the other hand, as a gallerist, you have a different view of the piece. There, I see more of a connection to the artist, and I leave it open as to whom it will talk to, who is going to fall in love with it. Sometimes it's myself. I think it is the content, and it's something essential in communication.   Sharon: Have you seen a piece that you might want to put in your gallery, but you don't wear it yourself?   Ilona: Yes and no.   Sharon: It just doesn't communicate what you want it to communicate.   Ilona: Yes. There are pieces I really love, but I don't feel this connection when I wear it. I guess this just happens. I think this is healthy.   Sharon: But some other people might still see a connection.   Ilona: Absolutely.   Sharon: Have you ever worked in another gallery?   Ilona: I did work at one when I was in Lisbon. I worked in the gallery at Artefacto3. At the time, it was Tereza Seabra that ran the gallery.   Sharon: Was there a difference in the air or in the feeling of the gallery compared to your gallery?   Ilona: It's hard to say because at the time, I didn't have any other experience with galleries, with contemporary jewelry galleries especially. But it was different, and I think that's important. I think that's something very important, these differences.   Sharon: When you say contemporary jewelry galleries, it makes me think that in Europe or Switzerland, there are more contemporary jewelry galleries. There are very few in the States. They exist, but there are very few. I wonder if there are more in Europe. I don't know. Would you say that in the time you studied art jewelry, the market has grown in Europe?   Ilona: I think so. I think it's also due to the schools. They are very active in communicating. The students are studying the works at the museums that collect, that show the connections, that have exhibitions or design exhibitions where they mix objects and jewelry. I see this as a precious education to make contemporary jewelry become more known by a larger public.   Sharon: Are they doing that on purpose?   Ilona: I think they choose the pieces because they have to be in the exhibition with the content they want to communicate and the pertinence of the piece. Maybe the side effect is that it is an education, that there is educational value in it, but I don't think this is the first purpose. If we talk about education, it might be a principal purpose when they organize workshops, lectures, guided tours, meeting artists at roundtable discussions, something like that. This is actively finetuned. It keeps the discussion lively and brings people together to talk about these subjects and about this not-very-much-known field.   Sharon: When you talk about it, it sounds very exciting. What is it that's kept your attention on art jewelry over the years?   Ilona: I think it captures the questions that come from society. If it seems that society is worried about something, they can communicate with the pieces. It's a very lively art. I think it's also something exceptional and precious, the freedom that jewelry artists have. They can really do the piece. Most of them can make the piece from the very first moment to the very last moment. So many are capable of finishing the piece all by themselves, which means during the thinking and creation process, they continue to evaluate. I think this is an enormous freedom, and this freedom also gives them a place for really absurd and surrealist things that you would never dream about in the field of jewelry. Jewelry is performance. It is linked so much to the body; it's linked so much to the lively body, to the vivid communication that is part of the daily performance we do.   Sharon: That is very interesting. Ilona, thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us and to let us know about art jewelry in Switzerland.   Ilona: I'm very happy that we had the chance to talk and that you were curious about our gallery. We were really happy to talk to you in Switzerland. It was great to feel your enthusiasm and this energy you have. Thank you very much.   Sharon: Thank you. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.    

What you'll learn in this episode:   How studying and apprenticing abroad helped Ilona push the limits of her work How objects carry memories, and why that can influence someone's desire to buy a vintage piece Why the most important thing a gallerist can do is choose pieces that resonate with them How art jewelry galleries create a channel of communication from artist to wearer to observer Why jewelry artists have more freedom that other types of artists   About Ilona Schwippel Ilona Schwippel has run the gallery Viceversa, in Lausanne, Switzerland, with her husband Christian Balmer for 20 years. She holds a bachelor in product design, jewelry and accessories from the High School of Arts and Design (HEAD) in Geneva and a diploma in luxury creations and artistic crafts from the University of Geneva. Since 2017, Ilona has lectured at the University of Applied Science, in Lucerne, in the XS Schmuck department.   Additional Resources: Vice Versa Website Vice Versa Instagram Vice Versa Facebook   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript Gallerists have a unique position in the jewelry world as the connectors between artist and wearer—and Ilona Schwippel holds sacred this responsibility. As co-owner of jewelry gallery Viceversa in Lausanne, Switzerland, she is always looking for the pieces that resonate with her and her clients. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why jewelry carries the memories of its previous owners; why jewelry gives artists more freedom than any other medium; and how giving context to a piece can change a customer's perception of it—for better or worse. Read the episode transcript here.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   Many of you know that I went on Art Jewelry Forum's trip to Switzerland to find Swiss jewelers that I didn't know about. Art Jewelry Forum has an international trip every year, and they're usually very interesting and very good. There I met Ilona Schwippel and her partner, Christian, who are owners of the gallery Viceversa. The gallery has a mix of up-and-comers as well as those who are familiar names. They're located in the center of Lausanne. It's a great place to be located because there's a lot of foot traffic. People must stop in the store never having heard of it, but they are attracted by the windows. I was really taken with the name of the gallery, which is Viceversa, and thought about what it could mean. Since I couldn't come up with anything on my own, I'll let Ilona tell you. Ilona, welcome to the podcast.   Ilona: Hi Sharon. Thank you so much for this wonderful invitation.   Sharon: I'm glad you're here.   Ilona: Actually, to explain the name, I have to talk about the story of Viceversa gallery. Christian Balmer —actually my husband; we're married—opened a small gallery in 1991. A couple of years later, in 1998, with a colleague, they opened a new store, a new gallery. All of a sudden, there existed these two stores. It was like vice versa—one of them in the other store. That's why when I'm talking about organizing and summing up this whole project, each of them came up with the word, vice versa and vice versa. So, they stuck to the name and selected it for the new gallery.   I came to Lausanne. We had met a couple of years before. At the time, I was still living in Lisbon. I'm a jewelry maker, and I had an internship, a practice, in Tel Aviv with an Israeli jewelry maker. During a show we had in Basel, Christian came as a visitor, and that's how we met. It was a professional meeting.   Sharon: I was surprised because in reading about it, the name of the gallery had been around for a long time, it seemed.   Ilona: Yes, this year in November, in three weeks, we will celebrate 25 years of the galleries.   Sharon: Wow! It's a hallmark. There are not many galleries that can say that. So, you're married. My next question was why did you and Christian decide to have the gallery together, your own art gallery? You are married. You studied in Lisbon?   Ilona: I did an apprenticeship. I started doing an apprenticeship in jewelry making with a master, as you can do in many places. It's quite usual to do that. Also, in order to find my own way of working, of thinking, of seeing things, I wanted to go abroad and feel the edges, feel the limits, and go beyond them. I had chosen Lisbon to experience this new context and to work there as an independent jewelry maker and designer. Since there is a very good school, I had the chance to participate in several workshops. It was my first contact with contemporary jewelry at the time.   Once in a while, I had questions that I didn't find the answers to. I was seeking dialogues. So, I saw in a magazine at the time an article about this Israeli jewelry maker, and I thought, “Well, these are the forms, the look he puts on jewelry and on the wearer.” I think it really taught me, even at that point. So, I got in contact with her. I did an internship with her for three months, and that's when we prepared the exhibition. At the exhibition, they were paying her a visit.   Sharon: You said that was your first contact with contemporary jewelry, in Lisbon?   Ilona: Yeah, I would say so. I had a wonderful master to follow through my apprenticeship, very extraordinary pieces, only one-of-a-kind pieces. That was something completely spectacular and very generous. He is a wonderful person. I'm very grateful that I could work with him, that I could have this first contact with jewelry with him. But if you have such a strong master, it's really important to find your own way of working, your own way of seeking, of questioning, to have your critical eye on your own work. It was important to me to go abroad and do something completely different, to jump into the cold water and to find my own task.   Sharon: Were you able to do that in going abroad?   Ilona: I guess so, yes. It was great. It was a wonderful time there, very special. It was the first time I was really imposing some limits or—how do you say—subjects and restrictions. I gave myself restrictions in my work to make it go to the essence of what I wanted to do, where I wanted to go while working, just getting step-by-step closer to what I really seek.   Sharon: Up until that time, did you look at antique jewelry, vintage jewelry, other kinds of jewelry?   Ilona: Yes, I did. I always thought it was really beautiful and touching, the care that was put into these incredible pieces and what they represented, not only for the person who wore it, but also for the people who saw it. It has this important symbolism, this important status, and this non-verbal communication to really tell things about yourself and your status with pieces.   I needed this freedom that jewelry can offer, or that the material and the body can offer, to seek something else. I thought it was beautiful and I appreciated it, but it was not really an inspiration. For example, my master, when I did the apprenticeship, was working with incredible stones. It was very spectacular and colorful and joyful. To find my own way, and so I didn't continue doing his work, I restricted myself by saying, “Don't do pieces with stones. No stones.” That was maybe my first restriction.   Sharon: So, you didn't do anything with stones until now.   Ilona: Yes.   Sharon: Did he use a lot of stones?   Ilona: Yeah, incredible. It's very colorful, exceptional stones. Like many stone cutters, like the most knowing ones, the most famous ones, they have with the most exceptional stones, first of all. His studio designed the very best stones, and then they went to other places. So, it was really old and very big.   Sharon: Do you show the stuff your master does in the gallery?   Ilona: Quite a while ago, we did a group exhibition and he was invited. He participated, and that was really nice.   Sharon: Do you have different kinds of exhibitions of jewelers that you didn't know before you picked them for your exhibitions?   Ilona: Yeah. For example, for the 25th anniversary, we worked with five great artists of 25 years, five very exceptional artists. The first man is Sigurd Bronger, a Norwegian artist, who had a solo show at the in Munich in the spring of 2024. So, they were very excited that he's in the show. He's from Norway. Katrin Feulner from Germany, and a Korean artist, Ji Hee Hong, also someone we never worked with before.   Eric Loubser from South Africa is the only we've already worked with. In 2021, we organized a big double exhibition which was called Tangible Dialogue with 11 Japanese artists that are based in Japan. These 11 artists showed their work here in Lausanne. That was a wonderful, great exhibition. It was a very nice event. The year after, 11 Swiss jewelry artists were showing their work in Tokyo. So, we had this double exhibition, and that was where we had the first contact with Shinji Nakaba. So, we're really happy that he's in the show for 25 years now.   Sharon: Wow! What were your trepidations? Were you nervous about having people in the show that you hadn't worked with before?   Ilona: That's a very good question. It's very exciting. We are really looking forward to setting up the show and organizing everything and then celebrating. Once you get the parcel and open it, it's always this incredible discovery. If it's the first time you've worked with somebody and you discover the piece, if it's the first time you've touched it, you can see that it's round and see the volume and the details, it's always a very special moment. It's very emotional.   Sharon: How do you find all these people?   Ilona: Schmuck in Munich. We're so lucky, and I guess the whole jewelry world is so lucky, that it exists with such great enthusiasm and this great dynamic, and also this incredible quality. I think this is something very exceptional. Then we go see exhibitions abroad, like in Paris, to have a look at jewelry. This is always interesting to see artists that are not yet known, to discover talents. I think also that AJF is a great platform to discover, to get information. It is really fantastic. Yeah, there are different channels.   Sharon: Do you have to go out to find these people or do they come to you?   Ilona: Both.   Sharon: Both? How do they come to you, with photos?   Ilona: Either they come directly to the gallery or they email us, or we know each other. They talk to us in Munich. Different ways exist, but I would say mostly it's by email because people are informed. They inform themselves; they read. Also, there's Instagram. It's the same, either Instagram or email.   Sharon: That's interesting, Instagram. Did you have a slowdown during Covid? I don't know how it was in Switzerland.   Ilona: Yes, we did. We had a shutdown twice. This was the first lockdown we had. We had moved into our new place and had our first exhibition to celebrate this new gallery, which was the exhibition with these 11 wonderful Japanese artists. Then a couple of weeks together, boom, it was a lockdown. It was really hard. Even though we couldn't open the gallery, we came every day. Of course, there was a lot of email and things to do, but I had the impression that without the clients, without these people passionate about art jewelry, that the pieces were all orphans. They needed us to look at them and touch them, to manipulate them. That was a very strong feeling. So, we came and started to organize the next exhibition. It was also to have the artists keep believing in it. Yeah, it was really terrible.   Sharon: How do you decide which exhibitions you're going to have?   Ilona: What is really important for us is always the fact that we have to be touched by the work. It's a great pleasure for us to show this work, and we really look forward to proudly presenting it to our public. I think it's a very important point to believe in the work and to be able to transmit that to the visitors. I see our work as governance. I see it as the link between the artist and the person that will fall in love with the piece. Without us, they might not meet. We can also give peace. We talk about the pieces; we talk about the artists. We give people peace to read the piece, to find details, to read the details of the piece and to see it in a certain context that was wanted by the artist. I think it's important to have this emotional contact.   Sharon: We didn't have that much time to spend at your gallery. Do you think there are pieces that people like, but you tell them what the artist meant, and they look at it in a totally different way? Somebody once said they have to meet the artist first, which I don't believe in, but they said that. I have to like the piece. That's important to me, but if somebody explained what they were trying to say, that might be different.   Ilona: I guess so. Every artwork, if you have the title or you see it in a certain context, like an exhibition with a theme or a subject, then you look differently at the piece. You read it differently. I think it can change the perception in both ways. It can make you more open towards the piece. It can also repulse you, because maybe it's a story or a context that is not what you feel comfortable with. So, both ways exist.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.    

What you'll learn in this episode:   What triggered Gabi's obsession with spoons Why the most elementary shapes are the perfect canvas for exploration How Gabi uses wax to create her pieces Why Gabi never polishes the spoons she creates, and why there is beauty in imperfection Why there is no time limit to study and make jewelry   About Gabi Veit Gabi Veit is an Italian artist and jewelry designer with a passion for spoons. She lives and works in Bozen/Südtirol/Italia and in Aesch/Zürich/Switzerland. Having grown up in South Tyrol, she creates jewelry that celebrates the rough and jagged shapes and outlines of her home country's rocks and mountains. Her unique spoons surprise the beholder with unusual shapes borrowed from plant life.   Additional Resources: Gabi's Website Gabi's Instagram   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript: A spoon is one of the most basic objects we have: a line and a circle, designed for everyday use. In this simplicity, jewelry artist Gabi Veit saw a world of possibilities. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she started making spoons; why no two of her spoons are alike, even in a set; and why she is living proof that it's never too late to study jewelry and design. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.   Gabi Veit's work is definitely different than any other you will encounter. She makes jewelry, yes, but for the past few years, she has been very taken with spoons. It's for a variety of reasons that I will let her tell you about. Welcome back.   Does the museum advertise your work? Do they promote it?   Gabi: Yes, they do. It's not only my work in this case. There are 50 other artists who are showing their work. This exhibition is made to show the clients, the people, what's happening now, what artisans and artists are doing at this moment. There are museums for applied art which are doing this. It's a nice, ambient atmosphere there.   Sharon: Do you ever feel a little envious of what other people are doing? Do you look at their work and think, “I should try that”?   Gabi: It's very interesting. Maybe because I started so late. I started with jewelry when I was 40. When I entered into this exhibition, when I had the possibility to have this exhibition, it was more, “Oh look, what does she do?” I'm in a wonderland when I'm exhibiting with colleagues, and I'm happy to have the opportunity to be part of this community. I'm more happy than envious. No, I'm not envious. I'm not an envious woman, I think.   Sharon: You don't seem like you are. You were in advertising and graphic design before this. What made you decide to go into jewelry?   Gabi: I always wear jewelry. I always loved jewelry. When I was 26, I was always thinking about doing an apprenticeship in my region, but they said, “No, you are 26. You are too old to do that.” I believed I was too old, and I did my work. I also founded a theater in my hometown. I was completely—how can say it—I was most happy with my life. There were so many nice things going on in my life that I somehow forgot this wish. Then this wish came again, and I started giving workshops. I was thinking, “Oh, I need to know more. I need to learn the techniques.” So, I went to Florence. I was there for three years at Alchimia to study contemporary jewelry.   Sharon: When you say you gave workshops, did you give workshops in design or jewelry?   Gabi: I was a student of workshops.   Sharon: Oh, O.K.   Gabi: Now, I give workshops, but then I was the student.   Sharon: I read that in 2016, you gave a workshop in Edinburgh with two other Italians.   Gabi: No, this was a symposium. We were invited. Maria Garza, Gigi Mariani and I were invited to go to Edinburgh to meet other artists and to work together for one week. It was an interesting experience for all of us. Then we worked for a year at home, and then we made an exhibition about our experience.   Sharon: What was interesting about the experience? What was interesting to you?   Gabi: For me, it was very interesting that we went to the sea on the first day together. I noticed all the others were familiar with the waves and the sea. I had a lot of respect for the water, and I was also noticing that the water was bringing something. It was bringing shells and also garbage. You can stay there and the water brings you treasures, but if you grow up in the mountains, treasures are never floating directly on your feet. When you are in the mountains, you have to climb them. When you go down, you have to do it by yourself. I was like, “Oh, wow! There is another way to get inspiration.”   Sharon: Did you make some spoons from that idea?   Gabi: I made spoons out of shells I found there.   Sharon: What did they get out of it? What do you think they saw, Gigi Mariani and the other person?   Gabi: It was not the first moment, but it was a very intense moment for us Italians that the sea was also bringing refugees and dead refugees. Gigi and Maria Garza were dealing with these arguments, with these dead bodies and with these people who have the hope to get a better life that sometimes die in the sea. That was their way to look at the sea in this moment.   Sharon: You also make bowls. Two bowls of jewelry, I mean.   Gabi: Yeah.   Sharon: Do your bowls ever go with the spoons? Do you make a set?   Gabi: I've never made a set until now. They are good to combine, but I never did it as a combination from the moment I started.   Sharon: Has anybody that collects your things ever commissioned you and said, “I want five spoons and six bowls,” like a dinner set?   Gabi: No, that would be so nice. Please, if I received that, I would like to do that.   Sharon: You would do it?   Gabi: Yes, sure. That's very interesting. Maybe I can tell the person that the pieces I make are not always the same. If you say, “I want to have 12 spoons,” they are not completely the same. Maybe they are a family, but like in a family, there are different characters. My work is all about unique pieces and not multiples.   Sharon: Do you ever tell people when they say, “What should I do with this? Do you hang it around your neck or a belt or something?” Do they hang it on a wall?   Gabi: Yes, there are a lot of people who say, “Oh, it's so nice, this spoon. It could be a brooch.” Then I say, “No, sorry, that's not a brooch, it's a spoon. If you want to have this as a brooch, I would make it again, not in a spoony way, but in a brooch way. So, it becomes a real brooch, not only an object with—"   Sharon: A pin or something.   Gabi: Yeah. The spoon is born as a spoon. A spoon is a spoon is a spoon. There are people who put my spoons on the table only to look at them, but also on the wall. That happens.   Sharon: Do you have to hold yourself back if you think, “Well, I should polish it more.” A lot of your stuff is oxidized or it's rough. Do you think, “I should polish it to make it shine”?   Gabi: I never polish. I really don't polish, never, never. I know that in tableware, traditional spoons are shiny. But when they are made out of silver or sterling silver, they never could stay this shiny because they will oxidize anyhow. It's impossible to get silver always in the same color and always shiny. I don't want to go against the material. I like this Japanese idea of beauty, wabi-sabi, where the beauty is not made out of a perfect thing, but it's made when an object is used, when an object maybe has an error, when an object oxidizes or has a part which is more shiny on one side. I really like this way to treat my work.   Sharon: Did you study in Japan?   Gabi: No. I would like to go to Japan.   Sharon: I know you've studied at different places. Where else have you studied besides Switzerland and Italy?   Gabi: I never studied in Switzerland. I studied graphic design in Austria. I studied graphic design also in Venice, in Italy, and then in Florence. I was not in other countries. In Germany, I did some workshops, but no other studies.   Sharon: When people ask you to do workshops, do they want you to show how to do the spoons?   Gabi: They are interested in working with wax, which I show them. There are so many different ways to treat wax. When the outcome is a spoon, I'm happy, but when the outcome is—I don't know—a necklace part, a ring or an object, that's also O.K. The participants of my workshop come with different ideas, and this is what I like. Maybe they are intrigued by my spoons or by my jewelry pieces, but it's about their language and not about my language.   Sharon: Have you ever inspired somebody who has been told they were too old to do it, and then they went on and did it anyway because you went against the grain? Do you ever meet anybody who was told they're too old to change fields—or not to change fields, but to do this and you've inspired them? You've said, “No, that's not true.”   Gabi: I always say to everyone, “It's not true.” I think you can do everything when you want. It doesn't need to be radical. It can be an hour a day or an hour a week. You can achieve change or achieve things in many different ways.   Sharon: Why do you say that a spoon is a subject of experimentation and interaction? You've said that. Why is that?   Gabi: For me, the spoon is a big field of experimentation. There are moments when I'm having a hike or a walk and I see a spoon everywhere. Somehow, a tree is a spoon formally. It's about my imagination and what I can see in whatever I watch. I also think the spoon theme is not finished. It never finishes because there are so many possibilities. Maybe that could be an explanation.   Then, for me, spoons are needed for cooking and scooping and eating. Eating in itself is an interaction and communication. I think the best way to talk to each other is to sit around the table and eat together. I'm sure there is at least one spoon.   Sharon: That's true. What's the largest? Have you ever made a spoon for a tureen, something large?   Gabi: I've made very small pieces, like three centimeters, and also very big ones like, 30 centimeters.   Sharon: What was your attraction initially to the spoon you were designing and advertising? What did you see in the spoon?   Gabi: I think it's a very simple tool. Maybe it's one of our first tools that humankind uses. Somehow, our hand is the bowl and our arm is the handle. We have our own spoons with us, but when it's too hot or too cold, we need a tool. I think from the beginning, people did their own tools, their own spoons. This is so primary, so easy, so simple, which I love very much.   Sharon: Is that what keeps you going? That the spoon, the art jewelry, is never finished? You use a different spoon for everything.   Gabi: Yeah, I think so. I would never do a fork, and I would never do a knife. That's not interesting for me. The spoon somehow is more interesting.   Sharon: That's interesting. I didn't even think of a different tool for you. Would a fork be too difficult?   Gabi: I would find a way to do it, but I'm not interested. I think this simple form attracts me much more than the spikey tree or the five spikes of a fork. I don't know. It's not so inspiring for me.   Sharon: Gabi, thank you for being here today and for explaining. It's a whole table of spoons, and they're really unusual. I really appreciate your being here today.   Gabi: Thank you very much.   Sharon: Thank you. Well will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   What triggered Gabi's obsession with spoons Why the most elementary shapes are the perfect canvas for exploration How Gabi uses wax to create her pieces Why Gabi never polishes the spoons she creates, and why there is beauty in imperfection Why there is no time limit to study and make jewelry   About Gabi Veit Gabi Veit is an Italian artist and jewelry designer with a passion for spoons. She lives and works in Bozen/Südtirol/Italia and in Aesch/Zürich/Switzerland. Having grown up in South Tyrol, she creates jewelry that celebrates the rough and jagged shapes and outlines of her home country's rocks and mountains. Her unique spoons surprise the beholder with unusual shapes borrowed from plant life.   Additional Resources: Gabi's Website Gabi's Instagram   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript: A spoon is one of the most basic objects we have: a line and a circle, designed for everyday use. In this simplicity, jewelry artist Gabi Veit saw a world of possibilities. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she started making spoons; why no two of her spoons are alike, even in a set; and why she is living proof that it's never too late to study jewelry and design. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   Gabi Veit's work is definitely different than any other you will encounter. She makes jewelry, yes, but for the past few years, she has been very taken with spoons. It's for a variety of reasons that I will let her tell you about. She grew up in an area which I would call rough, in that the landscape is rough. It is filled with jagged edges, which I think you will see in her jewelry and spoons. Her work also calls on the organic with branches and leaves incorporated in her work. Gabi also has an unusual perspective on the world. She's the first person to show me a PowerPoint without having a PowerPoint, which is very interesting and creative. Gabi, welcome to the podcast.   Gabi: Thank you very much for having me.   Sharon: I'm so glad you're here. Gabi is talking to us from Switzerland, right?   Gabi: Yeah.   Sharon: I'm not familiar with the Dolomites. You were born there and you return on a regular basis. Can you tell me about them and how they influenced your jewelry?   Gabi: Yes, I'm sitting in Switzerland now, but my home base—I was born in Italy, in the Dolomites. I grew up in the outskirts of Bolzano, which is a city with 100,000 inhabitants. The mountains surround the city completely. If you wanted to, you could take three different cable cars to go up to the mountains. I saw mountains every day, always, and we went hiking every weekend. Somehow the mountains for me, the Dolomites, are my home. They symbolize vastness and mightiness. They are powerful and dangerous somehow, but they are also cozy for me. I am familiar with these mountains.   Sharon: Did you have to take cable cars most places you went, let's say to school or the grocery store?   Gabi: No, the city is down at 250 meters. My city is very hot in the summer, so to escape this heat, you take a cable car and go up 1,000 meters in 12 minutes. Then you are in a nice, warm but not hot area with forest and with animals. The city is like a city, but it's surrounded by mountains, and these mountains are very near. You can't not see them, so I am used to orienting myself by looking at the mountains. I know one is in the east; the other is in the north. I'm completely lost when I don't have mountains around.   Sharon: Can you tell us what influenced your development of spoons? It's so unusual.   Gabi: Not really. The spoon thing started with—I have two stories. One is that I like to eat and I like to cook, so you need a spoon at least. You need more than one spoon to eat and cook. The other story is that I was in South America. After this trip, I showed a friend my treasures that I brought with me, and she said, “Oh, you are collecting spoons now.” I denied it, but she replied, “But look, there are seven spoons, and seven spoons is a collection.” So, I started to be interested in the spoon as an object, and I started to collect the spoons. Now I have more than 800 pieces.   I started as a collector, not as a maker. I was looking everywhere for spoons: at the market, at the flea market. My collection of spoons is out of wood and metal and plastics and glass and bone and horns. It's so interesting to see how spoons are used. They have holes when you need to take olives out of the salamoia. They are big or small. It depends on the purpose. That was my entrance into the spoon world.   Sharon: You said that it's very simple. It's an elementary shape. What makes your spoons so unusual? What's different about your spoons?   Gabi: I think when I started to do spoons, I was not aware that my spoons were special. I was driven first to understand how I can do spoons. Normally, when I don't know where or how to start, I start with a restriction. As I like to eat, as I told you, and as I also like to observe people, I noticed that people have different behaviors when they eat. Someone eats very fast; the other looks more at the plate of his neighbor and not at his plate. I was thinking that maybe I should start doing spoons for people that have strange behaviors.   As I grew up in an area where Catholicism was very strong, for me, it was simple to think about the seven deadly sins, because they concentrate all behaviors in seven ways. So, I started to explore these seven sins. I was driven by finding a solution for a spoon which doesn't help you eat well somehow. I think when someone wants it all and wants it all now, maybe you don't eat very well; you don't have the pleasure to eat. I did this research for one year. I did a lot of forms which were not completely perfect for this aim, but they were beautiful. That was the starting point to get a lot of different forms.   For sure, there is a second very important thing for me. That's nature. So, on the one side is the behavior of people, and on the other side there is nature, which I also observe a lot. As I grew up in a plant nursery, I am very familiar with growing and with how a plant finds its way to get its fruits somehow. Maybe I've been observing plants since I was a child.   Sharon: But there are spoons that have leaves; they have twigs; they have all kinds of natural things.   Gabi: Yeah, they have. It's all looking. I can also explain, as you said before, the spoon is a very simple tool. It's made of one line and one circle. The circle is the bowl and the line is the handle, but nobody tells me that a circle has to be round or a line has to be straight. When I started to think about this, I was able to make a lot of variation. This is also a way to start from a very simple form. It's easier to find a lot of variations.   Sharon: Have you made a spoon with a square or a different kind of bowl?   Gabi: Yeah.   Sharon: Did you develop these theories from the beginning of making spoons, or did they come to you as you were developing spoons?   Gabi: Both. Somehow by observing a spoon, observing how I take it in my hand and how I put it in my mouth, every day I do research on the spoon. There are theories I read and there are experiences I made. That's a long process because I started collecting in 2001 and started making in 2006. So, there is a long experience in dealing with this tool.   Sharon: I read somewhere that you incorporate stones in everything. Is that true?   Gabi: Not really. If you mean a precious stone, I don't use stones. I don't use precious stones. When I go for a walk, I always pick up stones. I'm happy to see a nice stone, but maybe in my jewelry, I make my own stones.   Sharon: In your necklaces and your rings, you make your own stones. What do you mean?   Gabi: I normally work with wax. This is my main material. When I work with wax, I can form it in different ways. I can cut; I can carve it. Somehow, I carve my stones. I cut my stones, but afterwards they are cast in metal. There are only two stones I use in my jewelry. One is the garnet from my region, which I incorporate in my jewelry. For two or three years I have used rough diamonds for my jewelry, not for my spoons. My spoons are always without stones, but the jewelry has these two stones sometimes.   Sharon: The garnets from the Dolomite region, are they red? Are they green?   Gabi: They are red.   Sharon: I didn't see any stones in any of your work that you showed.   Gabi: I did a collection. The name is Rose Garden. In my hometown, you look at the mountain of the Dolomites, the name of which is Rose Garden. When the sun goes down in the evening, it becomes pink. There is an old legend that a king lived there in this rose garden, and that he kidnapped a princess because he was in love with her. He wanted to have her in his palace, but she didn't want to, so he kidnapped her. Her brother and other knights found her only because they knew he had a rose garden. The rose garden somehow gave them the direction and they were able to liberate her. The king was so mad about his rose garden that he said, “You will never bloom again, neither by day nor by night,” but he forgot the morning and the evening. So, these mountain blooms glow really pinkish in the evening. It's beautiful. Somehow the garnets I found in my region in South Tyrol, they also have this red shine. So, I called this collection Rose Garden.   Sharon: If you pick up a regular stone, a rock stone, do you come home and throw it in a drawer and say, “Maybe I'll use it someday”? Or do you have an idea?   Gabi: Not yet. There are some collections based on the form of a stone, maybe. You can see that. But in this moment, I'm not so into these stones, I think. But it's also true that next year on, I want to do a new collection, and I have no idea where it will go. So, maybe our talk brings me to the stones. I don't know.   Sharon: Can you make your own stones? Do you ever make a stone out of wax?   Gabi: Yeah. There are different possibilities to make stones.   Sharon: What do people use your spoons for?   Gabi: My spoons are not spoons for the mouth. They are spoons to take sugar from a bowl and to put it in your cappuccino, your tea. My spoons are used for seeds, for pepper, for chili, for all these things you take from one bowl to your plate or to your bowl. I have one client, one collector, who has a different spoon for every use. He doesn't buy the spoon he likes. When he comes to my exhibition, I notice quickly which spoon he likes most, but only until the moment he knows for which purpose he can use it, he won't buy it. He always finds a purpose, and that's very good for him.   Sharon: Do you know because he's happier or he smiles? How do you know he found the one he likes?   Gabi: It's very interesting. He's very silent. He looks and watches for five minutes, 10 minutes, and then he takes one spoon and another. I notice when he finds one or when he falls in love somehow. It's really nice to observe that.   Sharon: Where do you share your spoons? At your workspace, or do you take them on the road?   Gabi: I take them on the road. Normally, I create exhibitions in museums. There are some museums in Germany, in Leipzig and in Hamburg, where there are fairs in the museum, very nicely created. There I show my work.   Sharon: That's interesting.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.  

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Esther's experiences in China and India continue to influence her work today Why different materials have different meanings, and how that impacts the wearer Why the relationship between a jewelry artist and a customer is particularly special and intimate How wearing jewelry influences the way we move through the world The most important qualities a jewelry teacher should have   About Esther Brinkmann Esther Brinkmann is an independent jewelry maker living and working in Switzerland. Her work has been exhibited in galleries throughout the world and is held in the collections of the National Museum of Switzerland, Musée des Arts Décoratifs in Paris, Museo Internazionale delle Arti Applicate Oggi (MIAAO) in Torino, and the V&A in London. She established the Haute École d'Art et de Design (HEAD) in Geneva, the first jewelry education program of its kind in the country.   Additional Resources: Esther's Website Esther's Instagram Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com  Transcript:   Jewelry artist Esther Brinkmann makes her rings with intention, considering everything from the meaning of the material used to the way the shape of the ring will change how the wearer moves their hands. She has passed this perspective down to hundreds of students at the Haute École d'Art et de Design (HEAD), the jewelry program she founded in Geneva. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how living in China and India made her question her identity and influenced her work; why many of her rings are designed to fit different sized hands; and what makes the relationship between artist and wearer so special. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.   I recently went to Switzerland with Art Jewelry Forum. One of the afternoons we had was at Esther Brinkmann's home. It was a very memorable lunch and afternoon. We got to see her studio, and on top of that, we had an unforgettable luncheon cooked by her husband, Warner. Welcome back.   Do you think you were taken by the design, the motifs and everything, because you're a designer? For instance, would I be taken by it?   Esther: You would be marveled by all these beautiful things, and you would love to buy these things, but maybe you would not have the desire to do your own designs, whereas I immediately got the desire to introduce these new inspirations. I was really stimulated to introduce these things in my own designs and to evolve to develop new ideas.   Sharon: For those of us that were interested in the enamel rings, I think you said we had to be careful if we dropped them or banged them. They were like glass.   Esther: Yeah, enamel is a glass-like material. It certainly it is not the best idea to make rings with enamel, but I could not resist. As I love rings, I just had to do a few of those rings. This was a period when I did realize maybe 20 of those rings, but they are difficult to sell because they are difficult to wear. You have deal with them very carefully.   Sharon: What other jewelry did you make while you were there?   Esther: In India, besides these enamel rings, besides this collaboration, I also started to do pieces with some stones. I discovered, for instance, the polki diamond in India. You can find it only in India. It's a diamond; let's say it is not the best quality. It's a piece of diamond with many, many cracks. They split it into very thin plates, very roughly faceted, not as we have the idea of a diamond with many, many facets. It is a very flat stone with a lot of cracks. It looks like broken ice or something like that. I love this kind of diamond. I started to make rings with that. I also started to purchase a number of not very precious stones, like peridots or topaz, etc. I started to introduce stones as a color element in rings especially.   Sharon: They call them polki diamonds? How would you spell that?   Esther: P-O-L-K-I. This might be the Hindi word for this specific diamond, but when you put it on Google, you can find it.   Sharon: That's interesting. From what you're describing, it's what we consider Indian diamonds. Along with the monograph that was put out by Arnoldsche for some of your exhibits, you also have a book that just came out about your jewelry.   Esther: Yes.   Sharon: A lot of it describes jewelry provoking feelings or provoking people. Could you talk about that a little? How do you see it provoking people?   Esther: I think this is the main reason why I am so interested in jewelry, because jewelry is something I create. I make a piece that has a relationship to a body, to a person. I don't know who the person wearing my piece will be. That depends on my practice. I work with galleries, but I create a piece with the idea that another person will choose it, and this person will wear it. This person will be like an ambassador of what I have created. This person will adopt what I have created for herself. She or he will wear it and show it, will translate it to others around her or him.   That is a very special thing, a very special relationship between an artist and a customer or a collector. When you buy a sculpture, the sculpture will have a relationship to a space, to your garden or your living room, but a piece of jewelry is something very intimate. When a collector buys something I have created, it's not mine anymore. I am absolutely comfortable and very at ease with this idea, to give this away. What I know and what makes it so rich is that this person will adopt something and use it as an intimate mirror of her thoughts, of her emotions, of her mind, of her attitude. I think this is a very special thing. The piece of jewelry influences our gestures, especially the big rings. They influence our gestures. They influence our body language. We experience our body in a different way when we wear a piece of jewelry.   Sharon: Any piece or are you talking about larger, significant pieces?   Esther: No, any piece, any. I'm talking now about any piece.   Sharon: Oh, wow! That's something to think about. You mentioned that you make the rings in gold and jade and silver. Do they have different meanings, the different materials?   Esther: Absolutely. I think any material has its own meaning. Of course, gold, silver and jade are so-called precious materials. They are considered by everybody as precious. I like them not because they are considered precious worldwide, but I like to work with them because of other qualities. For instance, gold and silver are very plastic materials. You can hammer volumes out of a flat sheet of gold or silver. You cannot do this with a simple hammer and iron, for instance, but gold and silver have these plastic qualities.   Then, of course, the color is a very important aspect. The weight of silver is very tender. Yellow gold is much stronger. I also know that silver is linked in many, many cultures to the moon and the feminine, and gold is linked to the sun and to the male aspect in us. Whether we know it or not, it is like an ancestral knowing that is within us and that we can feel. That's also why different people are attracted by different materials. Not everybody likes to wear gold. Not everybody is able to have a big ring made of gold because it's a statement you make.   Sharon: Do you think you're influenced in these thoughts by your living abroad or living in different cultures?   Esther: I think so, yes. Of course, I learned a lot. For instance, jade has a strong symbolic meaning in China and for the Chinese culture. It's a very strong material, which we may not understand immediately, only if we learn about it. I think living in other areas of the world, you become sensitive to how different materials are used. As a person who likes to transform material into something, into an object, or to transform very simple materials like a thread or a string into something precious, into something which has a specific character, it gives you another relationship to different materials. I choose my materials very consciously by what I want to transmit as a feeling.   Sharon: Would you call yourself a jeweler?   Esther: Yes, absolutely. I'm a jewelry maker, yes.   Sharon: I guess a jewelry maker is different than a jeweler. I have my own understanding of what a jeweler is. You're a jewelry maker.   Esther: I have to say English is not my language. I might not make the difference between jeweler and jewelry maker. I know the difference between a jewelry maker and a designer. I'm not a designer because I make things myself. I create and I make. I realize things myself. So, I'm not a designer. I don't consider myself a designer.   Sharon: What possessed you to start a whole department in Geneva, a jewelry department at the university there?   Esther: That was a very happy, glad circumstance. It was in the beginning of 1980. Switzerland joined the European Space for Higher Education. Art schools and schools for applied arts were things then, not universities. They had no universities for art. In the beginning of 1980, we joined the European Space for Higher Education. At the school where I studied between 1974 and 1978, and where I started to teach in 1982, we, the teachers, were asked to make a proposal for a new education program.   At that time, I was already very active as an independent jewelry maker. I could participate in international exhibitions, and I absolutely wanted to open a department for experimental and art jewelry in Geneva because we didn't have that. We had this excellent program for luxury jewelry. That is what I learned. For four years, I had this education for luxury jewelry, and I thought it was the time in Switzerland, and especially in the French-speaking part of Switzerland. In this very luxurious environment, we needed something breaking this up. This is another idea of what luxury can be. It's not only luxury and precious metals and very expensive stones; it can be something very different. That is the environment where I could start this jewelry design department at the school in Geneva, which is now called the School for Applied Arts, which has the same status as a university.   Sharon: As a university, did you first study basic university courses?   Esther: I was never in a university. I just knew them from my colleagues I met when we exhibited. I knew the Rietveld Academy. I knew the RCA in London. I knew Otto Künzli in Munich. I had this dream of doing something like that in Geneva, and I was given the opportunity and the confidence to start and create this department. It was a very lucky situation. I am a very lucky person in general.   Sharon: Well, you must be a good teacher because there are people all over that I met who said, “Oh, I studied with Esther Brinkmann.” You must be a good teacher. They wouldn't have chosen this, would they?   Esther: I'm very much able to transmit my passion. I'm also able to support young people to find their own way, to express ideas, to find their own materials and, maybe the most important, to find the energy to develop and to not give up, to stay with an idea and to follow your intuition, to give you the skills and the force to realize something until satisfaction. This is a very, very important thing. Everybody has ideas; everybody can have excellent ideas, but you have to have the energy and the endurance to follow your way and follow your idea until materializing something to achieve a piece. That is something you need support for. I think that is a very important thing the teacher has to give, to transmit to her students.   Sharon: Was there a competition or was there stress in choosing you? Were they going to choose somebody for this position?   Esther: No, there was nobody. There were different people to propose different programs. I had a colleague who also proposed a program for watch design. We had a very small department for watch design open at that time, but nothing in the field of creative jewelry.   Sharon: Creative jewelry being contemporary too?   Esther: Yes, being contemporary jewelry.   Sharon: Tell us about the Magpies. We'll finish with that. What about the Magpies?   Esther: I met the Magpies more or less at the same period. I met Theresa, who was the founder of this club called the Magpies. It was a small group of friends, of women. They were just fond of jewelry, although not of contemporary jewelry at that time. Two or three of them were involved in archaeology. They were fond of tribal jewelry, of jewelry from the Middle East. They were just interested in jewelry. When I met them, I could introduce them to contemporary jewelry. Since then, they were very supportive of my students as a group of women who were just enthusiastic and following what we were doing and also, of course, buying work, which is always very important. That's how we kept going in parallel together until now.   What happened is that I would say in the last 15 years, this group has become less and less active because the women are getting elderly. They stopped organizing activities. Only recently a group of younger people are starting this group of collectors again and trying to organize activities around this topic. It depends always on people and privileged relationships that we can have with collectors, but also galleries. It's the same with students. People can stimulate each other to excellence, to create things and to do activities which they would not do when they are alone.   Sharon: Do you see that happening with Magpies? Do these stimulate?   Esther: The fact that we were friends and that I could include them in our activities at the department, I think that was a very stimulating period of time for them. Somehow with my successors, it did not happen in that same way. But it seems that now, with the new generation at the school in Geneva, they are trying again to create this link and this relationship with collectors. They might succeed. I think so. It's about transmitting your passion, and it's about exchanging ideas. It's about generosity from one part, and the other that makes things can make things happen.   Sharon: You certainly have made things happen. Thank you for being with us today. I greatly, greatly appreciate it.   Esther: Thank you for having me, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about all this. Thanks.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Esther's experiences in China and India continue to influence her work today Why different materials have different meanings, and how that impacts the wearer Why the relationship between a jewelry artist and a customer is particularly special and intimate How wearing jewelry influences the way we move through the world The most important qualities a jewelry teacher should have   About Esther Brinkmann Esther Brinkmann is an independent jewelry maker living and working in Switzerland. Her work has been exhibited in galleries throughout the world and is held in the collections of the National Museum of Switzerland, Musée des Arts Décoratifs in Paris, Museo Internazionale delle Arti Applicate Oggi (MIAAO) in Torino, and the V&A in London. She established the Haute École d'Art et de Design (HEAD) in Geneva, the first jewelry education program of its kind in the country.   Additional Resources: Esther's Website Esther's Instagram Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com  Transcript:   Jewelry artist Esther Brinkmann makes her rings with intention, considering everything from the meaning of the material used to the way the shape of the ring will change how the wearer moves their hands. She has passed this perspective down to hundreds of students at the Haute École d'Art et de Design (HEAD), the jewelry program she founded in Geneva. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how living in China and India made her question her identity and influenced her work; why many of her rings are designed to fit different sized hands; and what makes the relationship between artist and wearer so special. Read the episode transcript here.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   I recently went to Switzerland with Art Jewelry Forum. One of the afternoons we had was at Esther Brinkmann's home. It was a very memorable lunch and afternoon. We got to see her studio, and on top of that, we had an unforgettable luncheon cooked by her husband, Warner. Esther's work is very well known, although it's not known so much here. It is found in prestigious museums. She was influenced by culture, especially in India and China, where she lived for more than 20 years with her diplomat husband. We also met a collectors' club, the Magpies, which you'll hear about. She'll talk more about her philosophy and her jewelry. Esther, welcome to the podcast.   Esther: Thank you very much, Sharon, for inviting me to talk about my practice as an artist and as an educator. Thank you.   Sharon: You're welcome. I'm glad you're here. I was going to ask you why you think there are only certain areas of the world where your jewelry is known. For instance, I don't think it's known here. I don't know it. I haven't seen the jewelry here. If somebody said to me, “It's an Esther Brinkmann piece,” I wouldn't know what that meant.   Esther: That's a difficult question. I guess it's because I have never been collaborating with an American gallery, although I think I have a few pieces in American collections. My focus was, for many years, on European countries. As you were saying, we were living in China and India for 10 years, so I could show my work in those two countries. But America, it was a little bit far away, I think.   Sharon: Do you have more work in China and India and Europe than other places? I guess I'm asking that about China and India. Is your work more well-known there?   Esther: China and India are huge countries with numbers and numbers and millions and millions of people. I'm not very known in those two countries, but I am known in different universities, in different cities, as an ambassador for jewelry. When I was living in China and in India, I was given the opportunity to have a lot of lectures and workshops with students there, so I could introduce this idea, which was quite a western idea of artisan jewelry. In India as in China, it was not at all a topic.   Sharon: The lectures or conferences you had, was it because you were part of a school? Was it just private?   Esther: No, it was because when we lived in those two countries, I contacted different universities that had jewelry departments or fashion departments, design departments, and I offered to give lectures and workshops about art jewelry. I was welcomed with open arms.   Sharon: So, you basically made your niche, I want to say. You created it. You weren't asked, but you created it.   Esther: I would not say I created it, but I participated, and I stimulated young people in those two countries to go into individual creative and experimental jewelry. Things happen also because there is something in the air. The time was right to do that, and they were interested in it.   Sharon: If you had come 20 or 10 years earlier, would they have been interested?   Esther: I don't think so.   Sharon: Your favorite piece, the one most written about, is a ring that's a double ring. It's not made of two rings, but it's comprised of two rings.   Esther: Yes.   Sharon: How did that come about?   Esther: That came in the early 80s, when I started as an independent jewelry maker. It was the trend at that time. All of us tried to make multiple pieces. That means a big number of pieces, inexpensive pieces, for everybody. At that time, I had the idea of a ring. It was made of an industrially made aluminum tube with an incision on top where I introduced a rubber ring. This ring could regulate the size of the inner hole. I realized that I created this ring for a functional reason. Many people could wear the same ring and they filled the same space more or less.   At that time, I suddenly realized how interesting it is to have a ring with space around the finger. I focused on this concept, on this idea, and developed many different other shapes from then on. That's how the double ring came, a ring which is too big for your finger and a second ring which is open. The tubular ring is open and leaves space around the finger, and you fit in a second, smaller ring which holds the thing on your finger. That is quite complicated to explain.   Sharon: I didn't understand the big ring was supposed to be big and the little ring—   Esther: The big ring is too large for your finger. The smaller ring inside fits and is held back on your finger. It's an aesthetic decision, but it's also functional because the bigger ring can be worn again by many different sizes of hands because the smaller ring fits inside. I can adapt to different sizes.   Sharon: Do you have blanks you use, where you cut and these rings are this size and these rings are this size?   Esther: With the many years of experience I have, I know more or less the range of sizes of rings and fingers. I know, for instance, that women in China usually have very small hands and fingers, whereas in Holland, women have much bigger hands. Also in America, you have bigger hands and taller people. I don't send very, very small rings to Holland, for instance. This is the experience of many, many years. So, you get a feeling for what range of sizes is fitting to different women.   Sharon: Why do you think it is that different nationalities have different size hands?   Esther: I think it's not about nationalities; it's about the body shape.   Sharon: I tried on one of your rings which actually fits. You could slip a ring underneath it. I was surprised because I have large hands and mostly, they don't fit me. I was really surprised. You started making those rings when?   Esther: I started around 1985, something like that. That makes a long period of time.   Sharon: What did you do with the rings or the jewelry when you were in China? Did you just keep on?   Esther: In the beginning, I was a little bit lost, not in translation, but lost in this very different culture. I had many, many experiences of being the alien within a huge group of other people. That was a very special experience for me. That's when I had the idea to create this series of brooches called “Red Face and Double.” That was really a Chinese idea. I would not have had this idea elsewhere.   I had the idea of the “Red Face” because I was wondering, “How do these people perceive me? How do they see me? I see them like this and like that, and they are looking at me; they are staring at me. Who am I for these people?” Also, I didn't know anymore exactly who I was. There were a lot of questions. That's how I started to draw these faces. I thought, “It's a brooch; it's like wearing another face of mine.” It's like showing that I'm not a person who is only one. I am multiple. With different people, I might be a different person. I think that is a reality. It depends on with whom we are. We are different people. Luckily, we are not like a stone or something which would not change. That's how I got the idea of those brooches wearing another face.   Sharon: Do you think people understood what you were trying to do?   Esther: I think so. I think they could feel that it has something to do with who we are and how we see each other, how we look at the world, how flexible we are or what our competences to adapt in certain circumstances are, etc. What was certainly surprising for them was to see that you could express such ideas in a piece of jewelry. That was completely new for them. That was something very—not disturbing, but it was somehow questioning them.   Sharon: Did anybody ever say to you, “That's unusual,” or “That is really making me think twice,” or anything like that?   Esther: Many people said it is unusual. I had a lovely experience with a very young student. They came to see my first exhibition in Guangzhou in the south of China. I explained to them about this idea of having another face on me, and she said, “But you know, you are new here. I've lived in Guangzhou for 20 years and I have never had this idea.” So, I said to her, “Yeah, you see the fact that I am a foreigner here. I am a person who is in a new surrounding, in a new environment, so I have a new perception of myself. I have also so many emotions, so many things that I discover every day and every instant.”   Sharon: Did you continue to make the rings while you were there?   Esther: Yes, of course, I continued to make the rings, but I introduced a new material. I started to work with jade. I was very much fascinated by this very Chinese stone there. You can see it everywhere. It's a very popular stone. I was really fond of starting to work with and realizing pieces with jade. The second thing is, in doing so, I could start to collaborate with Chinese craftspeople, which is an interesting way to get into another culture, by doing things together, developing things together. Not only observing or being a consumer of artifacts, but sharing knowledge, sharing skills, sharing ideas and concepts is extremely enriching. That was a fabulous experience.   Sharon: Did you make the rings out of just jade or other things?   Esther: I made the models and then I got them carved by Chinese craftspeople. I couldn't have done this myself. I don't have the skill for that.   Sharon: How did you communicate with these people?   Esther: By bringing them a model. The first time I went to one of these carving studios with a drawing. I went with a translator. I could not speak Chinese in the beginning at all, so I went with a translator, and he said, “Oh, no, I cannot do this.” It was a very simple shape. They are able to carve Buddhas and cabbage and absolutely crazy, very complex forms and shapes, and he said, “Oh, no, I cannot do this,” and I said, “O.K., I have to find another way to communicate.” So, I went home, and I made the ring of wood. I went back and asked him, “Could you please copy this ring for me in jade?” and he said, “Of course, no problem.”   Sharon: The same person?   Esther: The same person. It was just the way to communicate. When he saw the drawing, he was not sure he was able to interpret the right thing, whereas with the model, he could measure. He could copy exactly the same thing. It wasn't a problem anymore.   Sharon: Did you produce a few in jade?   Esther: Yes, I produced a few in jade. It's getting dark here, Sharon.   Sharon: O.K., all right, I'm sorry.   Esther: No, that's why I turned on the lights, so you could see me again.   Sharon: Yes, I can see you. How long ago did you start making rings on a continuous basis?   Esther: 35, 40 years. It's a long time.   Sharon: Can you tell us about your experience with the rings in India?   Esther: When we arrived in India, the first impressions that I got were the fabulous world of colors and patterns on textiles, on temples, on saris. Wherever you look, you will see fabulous combinations of colors and ornaments, motifs and patterns, flowers, birds and things like that. I thought, “This is the moment for me to try to introduce motifs and decorations to my very simple shapes.” So, I started to draw flowers and birds influenced by these jewelry pieces from the Mughal Period, which I find absolutely fantastic. I was lucky to find an enamel master, a skilled craftsman in Rajasthan, in Jaipur, who could realize my rings. I made the metal ring gold or silver. I drew the pattern on it, the motif, and he realized the enamel.   Sharon: Was there any problem in communicating with them?   Esther: There were many problems because our temperaments are completely different. Of course, our sense of aesthetics is also different. In the beginning, he said, “Esther, I will draw you things in a better way. I can do this for you. I can make much better motifs than what you are drawing,” and I said, “This is not the deal we did. I have my own ideas. I don't want to make Indian jewelry. I make my own jewelry, and I want you to realize, with your fantastic skill, the best enamel I can get.”   It also took some time to discuss and to find how to communicate. In the end, it worked very well, but it worked very well because I went to his studio. I stayed a few days there; I worked together with him. I could not work with him from this distance now from Switzerland. That would not be possible.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.  

Link to article:  https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/20/fashion/jewelry-podcasts.html Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. We are thrilled to announce an article on the Jewelry Journey podcast from writer Melanie Abrams released in the New York Times. The article is linked in the show notes, our website, and even Instagram. So please help us take the jewelry journey even farther by sharing, liking and commenting on the article. Hopefully in the coming months I will have some of the other hosts from the article so that we can learn more about their adoration of adornments. Thank you again for listening.Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   Which essential jewelry books you should have in your library Why books are so much more reliable than internet research when it comes to gemstones and jewelry Why the Renaissance opened up a new world of adornment An overview of the periods of jewelry and how they overlapped and influenced one another How cultural turning points, like World War II and the South African diamond rush, influenced what materials were used during different time periods   About Jo Ellen Cole Jo Ellen Cole is the owner of Cole Appraisal Services and the director of fine jewelry at Abell Auctions. She earned her Graduate Gemologist Diploma at the Gemological Institute of America in Santa Monica and successfully passed the prestigious Gemological Association of Great Britain's FGA examinations.   Additional resources: LinkedIn Gemological and Jewelry Books for a Professional Library:   GEMOLOGICAL IDENTIFICATION BOOKS Gemstones: Their Sources, Descriptions and Identification, Webster, Robert Gem Testing, Anderson, Basil Handbook of Gemstone Identification, Liddicoat Jr., Richard T. Gem and Ornamental Materials of Organic Origin, Pedersen, Maggie Campbell Gemstones of the World, Schumann, Walter Photoatlas of Inclusions in Gemstones, Vols. 1, 2 and 3, Gubelin, Edward and Koivula, John Color Encyclopedia of Gemstones, Arem, Joel The Spectroscope and Gemmology, Anderson, Basil and Payne, James, edited by Mitchell, R. Keith   GENERAL REFERENCE Gemology, An Annotated Bibliography, Sinkankas, John The Complete Handbook for Gemstone Weight Estimation, Carmona, Charles Dictionary of Gems and Gemology, Shipley, Robert The Jewelers Manual, Liddicoat Jr., Richard T. and Copeland, Lawrence L. Gemstone and Mineral Data Book, Sinkankas, John     DIAMONDS Diamonds, Bruton, Eric Diamond Cutting: Complete Guide to Cutting Diamonds, Watermeyer, Basil Famous Diamonds, Balfour, Ian Hardness 10, Vleeschdrager, Eddy Diamond Handbook, Newman, Renee Laboratory Grown Diamonds, Simic, Dusan and Deljanin, Branko Fluorescence as a Tool for Diamond Origin Identification – A Guide, Chapman, John, Deljanin, Branko and Spyromilios, George PEARLS Book of the Pearl, Kunz, George F. and Stevenson, Charles Hugh Pearls, Strack, Elizabeth Beyond Price, Donkin, R.A.   JADE Jade, A Gemmologist's Guide, Hughes, Richard Jade For You, Ng, John Y. and Root, Edmund   COLORED STONES Ruby and Sapphire, Hughes, Richard Emerald and Other Beryls, Sinkankas, John Opal Identification and Value, Downing, Paul   JEWELRY HISTORY Brilliant Effects, Pointon, Marcia Understanding Jewelry, Bennett, David, and Mascetti, Daniella Jewelry in America, Fales, Margha Gandy Victorian Jewellery, Flowers, Margaret Transcript: In appraiser Jo Ellen Cole's opinion, the best thing a jewelry lover can have is a well-stocked library. Information on gems and jewelry abounds online today, but much of that information is incorrect. For that reason, Jo Ellen—a Graduate Gemologist who also passed Gem-A's FGA examination—turns to books when she has a question about a specific piece, hallmark or stone. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to share which books she recommends for every jewelry interest; how jewelry trends shifted over the years due to cultural forces; and how to quickly identify the characteristics of different jewelry periods. Read the episode transcript here.  

What you'll learn in this episode:   Which essential jewelry books you should have in your library Why books are so much more reliable than internet research when it comes to gemstones and jewelry Why the Renaissance opened up a new world of adornment An overview of the periods of jewelry and how they overlapped and influenced one another How cultural turning points, like World War II and the South African diamond rush, influenced what materials were used during different time periods   About Jo Ellen Cole Jo Ellen Cole is the owner of Cole Appraisal Services and the director of fine jewelry at Abell Auctions. She earned her Graduate Gemologist Diploma at the Gemological Institute of America in Santa Monica and successfully passed the prestigious Gemological Association of Great Britain's FGA examinations.   Additional resources: LinkedIn Gemological and Jewelry Books for a Professional Library:   GEMOLOGICAL IDENTIFICATION BOOKS Gemstones: Their Sources, Descriptions and Identification, Webster, Robert Gem Testing, Anderson, Basil Handbook of Gemstone Identification, Liddicoat Jr., Richard T. Gem and Ornamental Materials of Organic Origin, Pedersen, Maggie Campbell Gemstones of the World, Schumann, Walter Photoatlas of Inclusions in Gemstones, Vols. 1, 2 and 3, Gubelin, Edward and Koivula, John Color Encyclopedia of Gemstones, Arem, Joel The Spectroscope and Gemmology, Anderson, Basil and Payne, James, edited by Mitchell, R. Keith   GENERAL REFERENCE Gemology, An Annotated Bibliography, Sinkankas, John The Complete Handbook for Gemstone Weight Estimation, Carmona, Charles Dictionary of Gems and Gemology, Shipley, Robert The Jewelers Manual, Liddicoat Jr., Richard T. and Copeland, Lawrence L. Gemstone and Mineral Data Book, Sinkankas, John     DIAMONDS Diamonds, Bruton, Eric Diamond Cutting: Complete Guide to Cutting Diamonds, Watermeyer, Basil Famous Diamonds, Balfour, Ian Hardness 10, Vleeschdrager, Eddy Diamond Handbook, Newman, Renee Laboratory Grown Diamonds, Simic, Dusan and Deljanin, Branko Fluorescence as a Tool for Diamond Origin Identification – A Guide, Chapman, John, Deljanin, Branko and Spyromilios, George PEARLS Book of the Pearl, Kunz, George F. and Stevenson, Charles Hugh Pearls, Strack, Elizabeth Beyond Price, Donkin, R.A.   JADE Jade, A Gemmologist's Guide, Hughes, Richard Jade For You, Ng, John Y. and Root, Edmund   COLORED STONES Ruby and Sapphire, Hughes, Richard Emerald and Other Beryls, Sinkankas, John Opal Identification and Value, Downing, Paul   JEWELRY HISTORY Brilliant Effects, Pointon, Marcia Understanding Jewelry, Bennett, David, and Mascetti, Daniella Jewelry in America, Fales, Margha Gandy Victorian Jewellery, Flowers, Margaret Transcript: In appraiser Jo Ellen Cole's opinion, the best thing a jewelry lover can have is a well-stocked library. Information on gems and jewelry abounds online today, but much of that information is incorrect. For that reason, Jo Ellen—a Graduate Gemologist who also passed Gem-A's FGA examination—turns to books when she has a question about a specific piece, hallmark or stone. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to share which books she recommends for every jewelry interest; how jewelry trends shifted over the years due to cultural forces; and how to quickly identify the characteristics of different jewelry periods. Read the episode transcript here.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   I met Jo Ellen about six or seven years ago when I was studying for the GG, or the Graduate Gemology degree. In order to pass it, I needed to identify about 18 stones and get them all right, and I only had three chances to do that. This was daunting to me because I'm not a science person; I'm not a math person or anything. I wasn't working with the stones. I wasn't working in a jewelry store, so I really didn't have the opportunity to handle the stones. I called another appraiser, Charlie Carmona, whom we've had on this podcast, and asked him for a recommendation for a tutor. I thought it was a pretty weird recommendation that I was asking for, but he immediately recommended Jo Ellen, and I never looked back. She's been a great tutor. It was a few years ago, but she helped me a lot.   She knows a lot about jewelry, and not just jewelry, but I find her extremely knowledgeable about vintage and antique pieces. I have talked to and been to enough appraisers to know that this is its own specialty. She's also been helpful when it comes to directing me to researchers for whatever I need. She pointed me in the right direction. Today, she's going to share with us the books that she thinks will help us with our jewelry journey. Jo Ellen, welcome to the program.   Jo Ellen: Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.   Sharon: I'm so glad that you deigned to be on. Now, tell us, with a GG, which is part of the GIA, you can do a lot of things. So, why did you go into appraisal as opposed to other things?   Jo Ellen: Well, I found that I was lacking in salesmanship abilities, to say the least. I'm just not a salesperson, but I love to categorize; I love to research. Appraising seemed to fit that bill very well. Plus, when I realized that I was not good at sales, I met Charles Carmona, whom you mentioned before, at American Society of Appraisers—no, it was the AGA. I can't remember what that stands for, but it was a meeting. I met him, and a couple of years later, he asked me to work with him and I jumped on it. It was a wonderful experience. He's still my mentor. He's so knowledgeable and knows so much about appraising. I always feel comfortable talking to him about any problem I might encounter. He's been very instrumental.   Sharon: And a big name in the L.A. market, I would say.   Jo Ellen: He's really gone worldwide. He has three laboratories in China and Thailand as well.   Sharon: I didn't realize that.   Jo Ellen: Yeah, he's really opened up his market. He also leads a lot of traveling groups and things. He's very well-known.   Sharon: I knew he was well-known in Los Angeles, but I didn't know he was that well-known around the world.   Jo Ellen: Having factories in Africa, he's been around doing a lot of different things.   Sharon: I've stopped purchasing books when it comes to novels or something like that. I just listen to them. Why should I purchase a book as opposed to listening online when it comes to jewelry? Why should I purchase a jewelry book?   Jo Ellen: What I've noticed is that when I go online to research prices of jewelry, which I do often, I find that a lot of the information I find is not correct. I think part of the reason for that is because it's so easy to list something online. It gets your name out there, so people do that. However, they don't always double check their information. There's a lot of misinformation out there.   Whereas in a book, it takes a lot longer to set it up, edit it, make sure everything's proper. I've been able to count on the information coming from books a lot better than I have been from online sources. However, I must say there is certainly a good reason to look online as well. Some of the information is very good. It's just that, personally, I feel more comfortable with a book form. Then, you can revisit that if you need to. It's easier to find.   Sharon: Do you have to know if it's right or wrong before you look at a book?   Jo Ellen: You have to figure that out on your own. But generally, if you have a good background in terms of knowledge of gems and gemology and antique jewelry from reading through books, a lot of times, you'll find that information is incorrect when you go online.   Sharon: I know instances where I've found incorrect information about pearls or something like that. I wouldn't say I'm any kind of expert, but I know it's incorrect.   Jo Ellen: Yeah.   Sharon: Can you tell us quickly what you do every day? What does an appraiser do every day?   Jo Ellen: If I'm not reviewing a book for a gemological publication like The Gemologist or Gems & Gemology, which doesn't do book reviews anymore—but a lot of times, I'm asked by people in the industry to review new books. So, I do that a lot, which involves going over the book line by line and figuring out what I think is proper and what isn't, or what is clear and what is not. I do that a lot.   I also work at a local auctioneer two days a week, at Abell Auctions, as their fine jewelry director. I'm constantly cataloguing things and looking for prices on things, always encountering something unusual there. You get things from all over the world, and people like to use that venue as a way to sell their items. If I'm not doing that, I'm actually going to people's localities to appraise their jewelry for them, either for insurance purposes or for estate purposes if somebody has passed or wants to set up a trust. I do that a lot, but a lot of my days are spent doing what I love, which is reading.   Sharon: You sound pretty conscientious to look at a book that closely when you're writing a book review.   Jo Ellen: For me, it's really important to get it right. Generally, most books, even if I don't particularly like them, I can at least validate that their information is correct. I did have one book about a year-and-a-half ago that was just so egregious in its information I had to give it a bad review, which I've never done before. I called up the editor the week before it was due and said, “Why are you even covering this book? It's so awful.” He asked why, and I started pointing out little things. He was like, “Oh,” but he published the review anyhow. I didn't feel great about it because I don't like to slam people for things, but it was just so awful I had to point it out.   Sharon: So, we should do our own reading, both online and with books.   Jo Ellen: Absolutely.   Sharon: Let's talk about a book or books and talk about the history. If you want to learn about the history of jewelry through the ages, what would you look at?   Jo Ellen: There are a couple of really good books. When you write a book, it seems like the best formula is always to start at the beginning and take them through the ages. That's what they do with jewelry history. Usually, they'll start with prehistoric jewelry and how jewelry first came to be—it's one of the oldest things that humans have done that marks them as humans—and then it goes through medieval times and Renaissance, and then to Georgian and Victorian and Arts and Crafts or the Aesthetic Period, and then through Art Nouveau and Art Deco and Retro and on up to modern jewelry for today. That's usually how a book on jewelry history is set up. There are couple of really good ones out there that encapsulate what you need to know in terms of jewelry history.   Sharon: Before you tell us that, I wanted to tell our listeners that we will have all this information on the website. Yes, take notes, but you don't have to write everything down; it'll be on our website.   Jo Ellen: Yeah, I created a list of things that you can look for. One of the main books I recommend for overall jewelry history is a book called “Understanding Jewelry.” It's by David Bennett and Daniela Mascetti, who were both cataloguers at Sotheby's for many years and very knowledgeable in their field. It really helps to set up all those different ages of jewelry and gives wonderful examples and photographs. It's a picture book as well as an informative book, but all the information they offer has always been spot-on. I've learned so much from that book. It's one that I would definitely recommend.   Sharon: I've probably seen it in every jewelry office that has books. I see that book.   Jo Ellen: It's a great book. It really is. Another good one that's much simpler and has more pictures is a book called “Warman's Jewelry.”   Sharon: Warman's?   Jo Ellen: Yeah, W-A-R-M-A-N. The second edition was actually written by a good friend of mine, Christie Romero, who has since passed on. She used to be on the Antiques Roadshow. You'd see her on Antiques Roadshow a lot, a very knowledgeable woman. She had started her journey by traveling down to Mexico and learning all about Mexican silver and then just expanded from there. She used to give classes on jewelry at Valley College in Los Angeles. She just knew how to present things in such a way that it was very easy to assimilate that information.   It has tons and tons of pictures. It also has a jewelry timeline. It's very thorough for being such an easily read book. There are even some prices in there, I think. It's now an older book, and I think there have been other editions that have been written since hers, but I always liked hers because I'm familiar with it. So, that's another good one that I would offer.   Sharon: What about a book if we want to be more specific, like Georgian or Victorian jewelry? It's funny that when you say prehistoric, you could take many of the prehistoric pieces and wear them today and nobody would know the difference. But it seems to jump then to Renaissance.   Jo Ellen: Because it has to do with the Dark Ages. A lot of it is about human history and civilization. During the Dark Ages, people were in such terrible shape as a civilization, they didn't have time to decorate themselves, so they usually used items from the past. There wasn't a lot of information coming out between, let's say, the 5th and 13th centuries. Then things started rolling again once society got more stabilized.   Sharon: Is there a particular book we should look at if we want to pick up where society picked up? Let's say Georgian.   Jo Ellen: There's a really good book on jewels of the Renaissance by Yvonne Hackenbroch. It's quite a tome. It's big, and it goes through the history of civilization as well as jewelry. It talks about the light occurring in the beginning of the Renaissance, when people started realizing there's more to life than just eating and sleeping and staying alive. You can decorate yourself. You can show your social status by what you wear, some of it being jewelry. That's a very good book for the Renaissance period.   There's also another Renaissance book called “Renaissance Jewels and Jeweled Objects: From the Melvin Gutman Collection” by Parker Lesley. It shows wonderful examples of Renaissance-oriented jewelry. There's one called the Hope Pearl Jewel. It's this big, baroque pearl that's decorated as the body of a man. It's very well known. It demonstrates jewels like that.   Sharon: From there, does it continue to Georgian and Victorian?   Jo Ellen: Yeah, there's a really good book, “Georgian Jewelry 1714-1830,” by Ginny Redington and Tom Dawes with Olivia Collings. It's great because I had never seen a book specifically on Georgian jewelry. It's not glamorous jewelry because the techniques weren't there. It's just that people wanted to adorn themselves to help their social status. It's very collectable today. People collect Georgian jewelry all the time. It goes through the period before Queen Victoria took the throne and clarifies a lot of things. And, again, the information is spot-on. I've never had a problem with these books. When I go to confirm that information, I've never had a problem with it.   Sharon: I don't collect Georgian jewelry, but I do know it's very hard to find.   Jo Ellen: Yeah, it is, but it shows up at different auctions, sometimes in the most unusual places. Even at Abell Auctions you'll see it. People just hold onto these things. A lot of Georgian jewelry isn't available anymore because people would melt down those items to make new items in a newer fashion, such as a Victorian fashion. They would take the stones out, melt down the metals and then either recast them or remake them in some way into a newer-looking form. That's why you don't see a lot of Georgian jewelry anymore.   Sharon: How about Victorian jewelry? There seems to be a lot of it.   Jo Ellen: There's a lot of Victorian jewelry. Even though people also did it then, where they would melt things down and make a new piece out of older pieces, there is a lot of Victorian jewelry because Queen Victoria, whom that period is named after, wore a lot of jewelry. She was a big jewelry person. She loved jewelry and she used it for sentimental reasons to give imagery, to bestow favor on people. So, there's a lot of it around because people would want to copy her. Everybody started doing that. You'll have mourning jewelry from Victorian times.   A lot of historical things happened during her reign, such as the finding of diamonds in South Africa, which changed the diamond market forever. Before then, there were diamonds from Brazil, primarily, or India, but they're very hard to come by and very, very expensive. Once they opened up the diamond fields in South Africa, you started getting a lot more diamond jewelry.   Sharon: By mourning, you mean if somebody dies?   Jo Ellen: Yeah. A lot of times, when someone would die, they would leave a certain amount of money in their will to make mourning rings or pendants for their friends and family to remember them by. So, you have this memento mori-type jewelry which has its own collecting base. People collect their little pendants, which are like little baskets with a little enamel skeleton inside, little rings that say the man or woman's name written around the inside of the band, all sorts of things like that. It's kind of sweet because, when you think about it, jewelry is one of the few art forms that's worn close to the body. It makes it more sentimental.   Sharon: And the diamonds from South Africa, were they different than the other diamonds, besides being less expensive?   Jo Ellen: The thing with Brazilian diamonds in particular is that they had what they call a lot of knots in them, where their crystals grow into crystals. You would have these harder-to-polish areas. With African diamonds, it's such a pure form that they're easier to polish. They didn't take as much time to polish, and they didn't break on the wheel the way that some of the Brazilian diamonds would break.   Sharon: They used those diamonds in Victorian jewelry?   Jo Ellen: They did.   Sharon: What books should we look at if we want to learn about Victorian jewelry?   Jo Ellen: There is a wonderful book—in fact, I used to know an antique dealer that used to give out these books to his clients because they were wonderfully organized. There's a book called “Victorian Jewelry” by Margaret Flower, and it goes through the different phases of Victorian jewelry. There's an early, a mid and a late phase. What she does is describe exactly what you can see during each of the phases, what types of jewelry. It's very interesting, and it gives you an overall picture of how things came to be during that time period. It's really nicely done.   There's a much larger book I'm still reading because it's so big. It's called “Jewelry in the Age of Queen Victoria” by Charlotte Gere and Judy Rudoe. That also has a lot of very specific information on different types of jewelry, the makers during that time. What's interesting is you'll see the same authors over and over again because these people really use it. It's their way to express themselves as a lifestyle, almost. They're wonderful authors, and they do their research and know what they're talking about. So, those are two Victorian jewelry books I would highly recommend. I think they're wonderfully done.   Then, if you want to go into French jewelry, there's another book called “French Jewelry of the Nineteenth Century” by Henri Vever. It's an enormously fat book. I'm still reading that one as well, but again, it's jewelry makers. It's huge. It gives makers' information and techniques, and it's beautifully done. That's a good book to have as well.   Sharon: First of all, it strikes me that you seem to look at the pictures a lot more. You read. Most people don't read any of the book. They look at the pictures. That's different.   Jo Ellen: They have pictures with jewelry; that's sure to entice you to continue looking.   Sharon: Then what do you go into? Edwardian and Art Nouveau?   Jo Ellen: Before that, there's actually a period called the Aesthetic Period, which is also covered in the “Jewelry in the Age of Queen Victoria” book. It was in the late 1870s through the 1900s. There were certain makers that specialized in it, like Child & Child of London. They would make these beautiful pieces that harkened back to classical times but using new techniques and materials. That was a specific period. It was a very small period, but all the jewelry that was done during that time is beautifully done. There's a book by Geoffrey Munn called “Castellani and Giuliano,” and it talks about that specific time period. For example, Castellani was known for taking antique or ancient jewelry and refiguring it for that time period around the 1900s.   Sharon: He was a goldsmith?   Jo Ellen: He was a goldsmith. It was actually two brothers who were goldsmiths. One of the brothers was very politically active and lost an arm when they were demonstrating or something. He got put in jail, but the other brother kept on, and then their children took over after them. In Giuliano's case, which was another manufacturer in Rome, he was known for his enamels. You will see jewelry specifically with black and white enamel accenting other colored enamels. The work is beautifully done, and it's very detailed.   Sharon: We may be going back a few years. What was Berlin iron, and when was that popular?   Jo Ellen: Berlin ironwork, I believe, was like 1840 through 1860. It was a result of people giving up their precious metals for the Prussian Wars that were happening at that time. They would make this Berlin ironwork, which is very delicate and lacey, but it was made out of iron because they didn't want to use precious metals for that; they wanted to use it for warfare. So, they would use ironwork as a substitute for precious metals. There are some beautifully intricate bracelets and necklaces. It looks like lace. It's really beautiful.   Sharon: Is it wearable?   Jo Ellen: It is wearable. It's kind of a Gothic look, so it's a heavier look. I don't know if you'd want to wear it every day because, again, it's kind of—I hate to say gloomy, but it is kind of a sober look because it's black and the tracery is so fine. But it's certainly wearable.   Sharon: After the Aesthetic Period, we have Edwardian and Art Deco. What do we have?   Jo Ellen: What we start with is Arts and Crafts, which is actually my favorite period. I have a lot of books on it, but there are a couple that were really good in terms of pushing forward the information I knew. One is a book called “Jewelry and Metalwork in the Arts and Crafts Tradition” by Elyse Zorn Karlin, who's a very active member of the jewelry industry. She gives lectures. It's this wonderful book on Arts and Crafts jewelry and metalwork and leads you through the making of it with the guilds.   They tried to restart jewelry guilds in England where everything was made from first to last by the same person. The metal would be drawn and shaped by the person. If enamels were used, they would make the enamels themselves and apply them themselves. The stone setting was done by the same person. That was the beginning of Arts and Crafts, the person making the piece from beginning to end. Usually they're not terribly intricate, but they're beautifully fashioned with a lot of feeling. It's a very comfortable look, and it's infinitely wearable. The first part of Arts and Crafts started around 1883 through 1900. Then there was a repeat of it between around 1920 and 1935, around the same time as Art Deco.   What I forgot to mention during the Aesthetic Period was Carl Fabergé from Russia. He did a lot of Aesthetic pieces.   Sharon: He did the eggs, right?   Jo Ellen: He did the eggs for the Russian monarchy, but he also did jewelry for everyday people. He would make little, miniature enameled eggs for the general Russian population. Those still come up today once in a while. I saw an entire necklace of Fabergé eggs, all in different enamel colors beautifully done. Everything is so beautifully fashioned. You can tell they really took time in every single aspect of the making of that jewel. That's what I love about it. It shows so much attention to detail.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.    

What you'll learn in this episode: What the difference between an artist and a designer is The barriers that can make it difficult for solo jewelry artists to enter the retail market, and how Colette overcame them What Colette has discovered about her creative process by working with George Brown College psychology students on a research project Why it's important for artists to avoid looking at trends in stores and on social media too frequently How a spontaneous haircut sparked Colette's creativity and paved the way for her future business About Colette Harmon Colette Harmon's one-of-a-kind accessories are a dazzling blend of crystal, mixed metals and semi-precious stones. With an appreciation for meticulous craftsmanship, the metal meshing and intricate beadwork in each of her statement pieces are an audacious departure from mainstream minimalism. Born in Sisters Village, Guyana, Colette studied fashion design in Toronto before apprenticing as a belt and handbag designer for a leather goods manufacturer. Harmon soon founded her own eponymous label, whose name became synonymous with maximalist glamour. Harmon's modern approach to vintage flair has earned her a devoted following of customers, fans and fashion stylists from across North America. Her pieces have been sold in Saks Fifth Avenue and Holt Renfrew Canada, and her work has been featured in Elle Canada, Flare, Martha Stewart Weddings and Nylon. She currently focusses on one-of-a-kind couture creations for select clientele.    Additional Resources: Website Twitter Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Colette Harmon has seen many trends come and go over the course of her career, but she has never let that influence her work. She has always found an audience for her one-of-a-kind jewelry, even when her hallmark maximalism is supposedly “out.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why she defines herself as an artist; how she nurtures her creative vision; and how her job as a leather accessories designer led to jewelry (and how that experience may come full circle in the near future). Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Colette Harmon, who is speaking to us from Canada. Toronto to be more specific. I have to say I've never met her, and I've never seen her jewelry in person, but it's my kind of jewelry. It's over-the-top kind of jewelry. You may have seen it on a celebrity on the stage or screen, but if you've seen it, you'd remember it. Welcome back. Do people bring the dresses? Do they bring the materials or some things? Colette: Yeah, sometimes they do. If they bring the actual garment, then I can see how the neckline falls and how the piece of jewelry would sit on the dress. Sharon: Has somebody, a client or a stylist, ever come and tried the dress on and you just didn't like the dress? Forget the necklace; you just didn't like the dress on them. Colette: Oh yeah, but if they're wearing it, I can't say, “I don't like your dress.” Yeah, there have been people who have. Sharon: You told us that you like the fact that people like your stuff, that's pleasing to you. Colette: Mm-hmm. Sharon: What are some of the bigger obstacles you've encountered besides sales, let's say? Colette: In terms of? Sharon: In terms of anything. Being in the business, what are some of the obstacles? Colette: I mentioned before I found wholesaling difficult. Being a small business, I found that doing wholesale was challenging at times. Just being a one-woman show can be tough at times. There were times when I had people helping me, but often when you're creating—as I'm working with the students at George Brown, it was difficult to tell someone because I don't sketch. I create as I'm going. They are helping me create these pieces, but it's difficult to tell someone what you're creating if it's in your head. A lot of times I might say to them, “O.K., do this this way,” and then they start doing it, and then I see something else and they have to undo it. It's easier for me to create the original piece and then have someone duplicate it, as opposed to having people helping me create something. Sharon: You said the college is George Brown. That's the university? Colette: Yeah, it's a college here in Toronto. They're doing a case study of me where they're studying my creative process and documenting how I create. Sharon: What's the first step they documented of you creating? Colette: The first session was just an interview of me and my background. The piece that we're working on now—I brought a bunch of materials. I had no idea what I was going to do with them. So, they're watching how I work and how I put things together. They're asking me questions as I go on, like why did I do this? They're documenting how I go from start to finish, if that makes any sense. Sharon: Are they talking to a lot of creative people? Colette: I think what happened was Leah saw my work on Instagram. I'm not sure how she found me. She found me on Instagram, but I'm not sure how she found my work on Instagram. She was really inspired. In her words, she said she was blown away by my pieces. Because we're both in Toronto and she's been in fashion for a number of years, she wondered why she didn't know who I was. So, she contacted me and I went to see her. She asked me to bring some of my pieces, so I did. Then she came up with this idea and approached the college for a grant. There's myself, her, and two students she recruited, and they're documenting my creative process. Like I said, there really isn't a creative process. I feel like—what's that word when they say that—people will find out I'm a fraud because there really isn't a creative process. I can make it sound more than what it is, but I just play. I think everybody has a gift, and my gift is just the way I put things together. There isn't anything technical. Sharon: Can you tell us more about what you see the end product being with these students? Colette: That's the thing; I have no idea. I could send you a picture of the piece I'm creating now. I can tell you a little bit about that, but it would be— Sharon: I'll talk to you after the podcast about what we need for pictures. I want my listeners to know that usually I have a picture of somebody, even though I only post the audio, but I don't even know what Colette looks like. Colette: Oh, I can send you a picture. Sharon: Are you the exotic-looking one in the ads? Colette: In the ads? Which ads? Sharon: The ads for the website, let's say. Colette: On my website? Sharon: Are you the model? Do you have a model? Colette: Sometimes I model. I'm not sure which images you're referring to, but I think there are one or two images of me on the website. There are a couple of me on Instagram. I wouldn't call myself a model, but I do model my jewelry on occasion. A number of the images of myself were taken by a friend of mine, a photographer whose name is Michael Chambers. I've done some work with him over the years. I wouldn't call myself a model, but I have modeled my jewelry. I have a shaved head, and I can tell you the story about that. My cousin worked in a hair salon. One day I was visiting, and there was a gentleman there; his name was Stephan. He had this beautiful, long, curly blond hair. He looked at me one day and said, “You know, I'm going to shave your head.” I was young, and when you're young and crazy, I said, “O.K.” So, he took a straight razor—I would never do it again with a straight razor—and shaved my head. Then we did a photoshoot where he made bird's nests out of—I couldn't even remember what it was made out of. I think maybe feathers and all these different, crazy things, and he put them on my bald head and we did this photoshoot. But I didn't like it because I was young, and I was wearing a lot of hairpieces. Hair was very important to me and to everyone, so I didn't like it. I don't know if I told him I didn't like it, but I was like, “Oh god, what did I do?” I remember I came home, and my mom was like, “Why did you do that?” Everywhere I went, everyone hated it. This was a time when there were no bald women around. It was before social media. I didn't know that in Africa there are tons of women like that, but you didn't see any bald women around. I remember I would be walking by, and I would hear people whisper, “Maybe she has cancer.” A lot of people didn't like it because it was such a drastic change from what I looked like before. Now all of a sudden, you have no hair. But I kept it for spite. Just because people didn't like it, I thought, “I'm going to keep it.” I think I would shave it every week, like once a week or something. The more I did it, the more I liked it. Now that I'm saying it, I think that played a role with the jewelry because I would have this bald head, so the jewelry became more elaborate. Stephan saw it. My logo is now my head, like a silhouette. The silhouette of my head is my actual logo. I think he saw something I didn't see. Do you know what I mean? A friend of mine designed my logo. He took a picture of my shadow against the wall with the bald head. Then he took a picture of my jewelry and scanned it onto the image of the head. I would never change that. I think it's such a beautiful logo. I love my bald head, and I think it really works with the jewelry. It's so striking, for a lack of a better word. But I always remember after I did it, for years my mother kept saying, “Why don't you grow your hair?” Then one day she looked at me and said, “You know what? I think of all the hair styles you've ever had, that suits you the most.” I do have a nice-shaped head, if I can say so myself, but everybody always compliments me on my—I can't remember what your question was. I went off into a tangent, but I think you asked me. I don't think of myself as exotic, but I think other people might use that word. Sharon: The model on the website is Black. You're Black, right? Colette: Yeah, I can't remember what's on there. I think there are a couple of images of Black models on there. I think there are one or two of me on there with a shaved head, and then there are a couple on Instagram. Sharon: You're Black though, right? Colette: I am a Black woman, yes. Sharon: Do you sell a lot through Instagram? You mentioned it several times. Colette: Do I sell a lot on Instagram? Sharon: Mm-hmm. Colette: No, I never pursued doing sales on Instagram. That's why I was thinking of creating a collection of simple pieces like belts and bags, where I could sell online through social media. I find that the pieces I do, you have to try them on. If you're not able to try it on, I think a lot of things would end up coming back just because you have to be able to see the scale. I've never had a problem with returns. In all the years I've been doing this, I think I've only had one piece returned. It was a charm bracelet. It was a woman in one of the eastern states. She saw it in a magazine. She ordered it, and she sent it back because it was too big for her. She wasn't used to wearing that. It's a lot. You have to try it on. That's why I was thinking of doing some simpler pieces where I could sell in volume if some pieces come back, if one or two are returned. But I think the pieces I create now, a lot of them would end up coming back just because you need to try them on. Sharon: I never thought about that before, that if you don't have hair, you need something else. You need the jewelry. You need something to replace it in a sense, to draw the eye. Colette: I don't think you have to, but I think it works well with the jewelry. It's like a blank canvas. There is no distraction. Your eye goes straight to it. I have necklaces. I have a preference when I create. If it's a line, I always start off with the necklace, and then I create pieces that go with that. It always starts off as an elaborate neckpiece. Then I might simplify it or do some more simple pieces that are very similar: earrings or bracelets, a belt, maybe a beaded belt or a chainmail belt or something. But for me, it always starts with the neck. I used to wear earrings a lot when I was younger, but I haven't worn earrings in years. Now, I mainly wear necklaces. I don't like things on my hands, only because I work with my hands and I don't really like things on my hands. It's mostly neck pieces. I do a lot of belts, beaded and chain belts. A lot of the pieces I create in general are very versatile, where you can wear it on your neck or you can wear it on your waist. There are pieces I have that you can wear as a shawl; you can wear as a necklace; you can wrap it on your waist and wear it as a belt. A lot of the pieces I do are versatile. You can wear them many different ways. I do that purposely. I always try to create pieces that you can wear in multiple ways. Sharon: I'm surprised to hear that. What I have seen are the photos that are online, which are just repetitions of what's on your website. Were you influenced by the baldness? I went through a period where I was bald, but I had people come up and say— Colette: You did? Sharon: Yeah, I did. People came up to me and they would say, “Oh, I wish I had the guts to do that.” Do they come up and say that to you or anything? Colette: Not so much anymore. You see it now everywhere, whereas when I was doing it, when I started, there was hardly anyone. Now, nobody even notices. People just walk by, whereas when I first did it, people would actually stop and stare. Now nobody cares because you see bald women everywhere, especially on social media. There are bald women. You see it quite a bit. For how long did you wear your hair bald? Sharon: Probably for a year, a year-and-a-half maybe. Colette: What made you decide to do that? Sharon: Well, basically I was going through chemotherapy and I lost my hair, but it really made me understand how important hair was to a woman or a man, what you did with it and all that. I hadn't thought about it. Colette: Right, I think hair is important to a lot of people. People think, “Well, why would you shave it?” but I've never really cared about what people think about anything. As long as I like something, I don't care. Your thoughts are your thoughts. I don't mean you specifically, but whatever. Your thoughts are your thoughts and what you think about me is—why should I worry about what someone thinks about me? I've never really cared about what people say or think about how I look or about my appearance. Sharon: It's interesting. I think most people think, “What will somebody else think if I do A, B, C or if I wear—?” Colette: Yeah, I think so too. I think as I got older, when I stopped caring about what other people thought, it was probably at the age of 16. I remember if I went shopping with friends, if you're trying something on and they say they don't like it, I was like, “Well, I'm going to get it just because you don't like it.” If I like something, it doesn't matter to me who likes it or who doesn't like it. Sharon: I suppose you have to be that way with your jewelry. Your jewelry is gorgeous, but— Colette: It's not for everyone. Sharon: Exactly. Colette: It's not for everyone. There are a lot of people who think that's gaudy. Maybe it is gaudy, but I like it. I don't really care what people think. Sharon: It is an acquired taste. I flipped over it because I happen to like big, bold things, but there are some people who like delicate things. Colette: Who like delicate things, exactly. A lot of times, people will come to me and say, “Why do you do stuff like this?” People are always giving you advice, “Why don't you do this?” and “Why don't you look at this person and do what they're doing?” Why would I do that? That's her and I'm me. I have to be me. Why would I look at someone and imitate what they're doing? For me, I always have to be true to myself. I have to create what is in me. I think that's what makes us all unique; we're all different. I find a lot of times, everybody's trying to create or do what everyone else is doing. The last time I was out in the shops, it was maybe a couple of years ago. We have a mall here called Yorkdale. I was at Yorkdale Mall. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's a high-end department store here in Canada. I'm looking, and there was—I can't remember the names, but I'll just say there was a Gucci chain bracelet. Then I would go somewhere else, and it was Yves Saint Laurent, but it was the exact same bracelet. It was just a different label. I'm not joking. It was the exact same. I don't understand that. I find everybody, even with jewelry, it's all the same. I don't know if it still is because I haven't really looked at anything, but it's all the same. I've heard people say that to me too, that when they're out, everything looks the same, like no one is different. I guess something sells, so everybody does it. There's some jewelry, I think it's Tiffany that does it. I don't know what it's called, but it's links and it has balls on the end. It's a chain link at Tiffany. I think Tiffany did it originally, but I see that everywhere, even high-end designers with the same link they just copied from Tiffany. I think, “Why not just create your own?” Anyway, I guess if something sells, everybody does it. Sharon: We're going full circle to why you're an artist and not a designer, why you call yourself an artist. I really appreciate your being with us today. I hope we can do this again. Thank you very much, Colette. Colette: Thank you so much for having me, Sharon. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Sharon: It was great. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: What the difference between an artist and a designer is The barriers that can make it difficult for solo jewelry artists to enter the retail market, and how Colette overcame them What Colette has discovered about her creative process by working with George Brown College psychology students on a research project Why it's important for artists to avoid looking at trends in stores and on social media too frequently How a spontaneous haircut sparked Colette's creativity and paved the way for her future business About Colette Harmon Colette Harmon's one-of-a-kind accessories are a dazzling blend of crystal, mixed metals and semi-precious stones. With an appreciation for meticulous craftsmanship, the metal meshing and intricate beadwork in each of her statement pieces are an audacious departure from mainstream minimalism. Born in Sisters Village, Guyana, Colette studied fashion design in Toronto before apprenticing as a belt and handbag designer for a leather goods manufacturer. Harmon soon founded her own eponymous label, whose name became synonymous with maximalist glamour. Harmon's modern approach to vintage flair has earned her a devoted following of customers, fans and fashion stylists from across North America. Her pieces have been sold in Saks Fifth Avenue and Holt Renfrew Canada, and her work has been featured in Elle Canada, Flare, Martha Stewart Weddings and Nylon. She currently focusses on one-of-a-kind couture creations for select clientele.    Additional Resources: Website Twitter Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Colette Harmon has seen many trends come and go over the course of her career, but she has never let that influence her work. She has always found an audience for her one-of-a-kind jewelry, even when her hallmark maximalism is supposedly “out.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why she defines herself as an artist; how she nurtures her creative vision; and how her job as a leather accessories designer led to jewelry (and how that experience may come full circle in the near future). Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   Today, my guest is Colette Harmon, who is speaking to us from Canada. Toronto to be more specific. I have to say I've never met her, and I've never seen her jewelry in person, but it's my kind of jewelry. It's over-the-top kind of jewelry. You may have seen it on a celebrity on the stage or screen, but if you've seen it, you'd remember it. I couldn't find a lot of information about Colette, so I'm going to let her tell you her story. Colette, welcome to the program.   Colette: Thank you so much, Sharon. It's a pleasure to be here.   Sharon: I'm so glad to have you. It took us a while to connect, to actually make this happen. Are you a designer? How do you refer to yourself? A Canadian designer?   Colette: That's a good question. I don't think of myself as Canadian, but I am a Canadian designer. I think of myself more as an artist as opposed to a designer. To me, a designer is someone who—can I start again?   Sharon: Yes.   Colette: Let me start again. To me, a designer is someone who creates things that can be worn by the masses, who is able to distill things and make them very simple so that everyone can wear them. Like you said, I'm more over the top. I don't think about the masses. I create for myself. I create things that I, myself, would wear. I don't really think about it, and I don't really want the masses to wear my pieces. I want them to be unique. Maybe not one-of-a-kind, but limited editions. I don't want to see my pieces everywhere on everybody. When you're creating things that will be liked and appreciated by many, many people, it becomes distilled and watered down. To me, it loses its soul and its energy. Others might not think that, but that's how I think of myself.   Sharon: I just wanted to ask you, you're from Guyana. Am I saying that right? Guyana?   Colette: From Guyana, yes. I was born in a little place called Sisters Village, Guyana.   Sharon: When did you come over here? Were you young or a child?   Colette: I came at the age of five. I came with my parents, my mom and my dad. I have two brothers.   Sharon: So, you came with your family.   Colette: Yes.   Sharon: And when did you start designing jewelry or other things?   Colette: At a young age. I think I got my creativity from my mother. My mother was very creative. She was very musical. She sewed. She sang. She played piano. She was very creative. I think that's where my creativity comes from. As a child, I was always drawing. I was very much in my head and my own little world as a child. I was always drawing and creating different things. I studied clothing design and thought I would be a fashion designer, a clothing designer.   How I ended up in jewelry was, when I graduated from school, there was a job advertised. I went to a school called Seneca College in Toronto. When I graduated, there was a job in the paper for an accessory designer; it was a belt designer. I had taken a course in college—I think it was just one semester—an accessory-making course. So, when I graduated, I saw the ad and thought, “I can make those.” So, I applied and got the job. I did that for about a year, year-and-a-half.   Then I left that job and started creating my own belts and handbags. One day I was doing a market show, and somebody asked me if I could make a pair of earrings to go with a belt they had purchased. I didn't know anything about jewelry, so I just cut little squares and circles and covered them with leather. Looking back, they were horrible, but at the time I thought they were great. That's how I got into jewelry. I never had any intentions of being a jewelry designer; I never thought of being a jewelry designer. That's how I started. It just sort of happened. I have no idea. It wasn't something I thought about, but I ended up becoming a jewelry designer.   Sharon: Do you have a lot of stylists as clients? They're women, I presume. Are they stylists?   Colette: When I started doing jewelry, I started out wholesaling. I had an agent that would carry my pieces, and I sold to people like Holt Renfrew. I sold to Saks a little bit. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but there was a chain store here in Canada called Lipton's. I sold to Lipton's. I sold to better ladies' boutiques. I got into doing custom pieces because it was very difficult wholesaling as a one-woman show. It was always very challenging getting paid on time, getting paid at all. When you're small, I don't know if it's true for everyone, but with me, people like Saks, they would sometimes take six months to pay me if I got an order. It became very difficult waiting for money. So, I was doing wholesaling and custom work for a bit, and I segued into doing all custom.   Sharon: Did you leave manufacturing belts to have your own business?   Colette: I slowly moved away from the belts and got into jewelry. I can't remember exactly how or when it happened, but one day, I ended up being a jewelry designer. I never thought about it. I didn't plan it. Belts go in and out of style, so I guess there was a period where they weren't selling as much. Belts weren't in style, so I moved more towards jewelry. I guess I decided that I liked creating jewelry better than I did belts, and I just ended up in that field.   Sharon: I want to make sure that everybody knows that the jewelry you make is made with real stones and—I call them costume things—things that aren't real, feathers and all kinds of things. Do you have an inventory?   Colette: Yes, I have quite a bit of stuff. I love to mix different things. I don't follow any rules. I mix semiprecious with crystal and metal. Sometimes there's sterling silver, and occasionally I'll use a little bit of gold. A lot of it is plated. A lot of the metals are plated in either gold or silver. My strength is mixing, the way I combine different elements. I think that's what my strength is. Some people only do semiprecious or only precious, but I like to mix and combine high and low things. I work with whatever I like. If I like something, I'll use it. It has to speak to me. It may sound silly, but I think everything has an energy and they speak to you. They don't speak to you in words or in language, but they have an energy and a feeling. I use what I like, what speaks to me.   Sharon: Do you create these pieces before there's a need, before somebody comes to you and says, “I need a piece,” or do you create them when they say they need a piece?   Colette: I do a bit of both. Someone could come to me and say they're going to an event. They might have a dress they need something to go with. A lot of times they just say they want a necklace and the colors and materials they would like to use, and they let me be free and do whatever. I prefer to work that way. I prefer to have creative freedom. A lot of times, someone will come and have something in mind, and I say, “That won't work,” and they won't listen. So, I do what they like, and you finish it and they say, “O.K., you were right.” I find a lot of people can't visualize; they can't see it. It usually turns out O.K. when I have creative freedom. I can't create something that I don't like. I have to like what I'm doing.   Sharon: What do you say if somebody says to you, “I want it this way,” and you think that's not going to look good? What do you say or how do you deal with that?   Colette: I usually tell them. I'm usually very honest. Then I'll do what they would like me to do. It usually turns out that it doesn't look good, but that doesn't happen very often. It usually works out pretty well. The people that come to me know what I do, so they know what to expect.   Sharon: Can you tell us a little about the people that come to you? Are they women? Are they stylists?   Colette: Mostly women. I do work with stylists. If someone's doing a shoot, they might want me to create something, or they might pull from something I have. I don't keep a lot of inventory. It's mostly women that are going to an event or party. The past couple of years, there haven't been very many parties, but they come to me if they're going to a ball or a fundraiser or just for their everyday lives. They just want me to create something unique. People come to me because they want something different. I don't pay attention to trends or what everyone is doing, so when they come to me, they know they're getting something different.   Sharon: How do they hear about you?   Colette: Mostly through word of mouth. I've scaled back the marketing. It's mostly through word of mouth.   Sharon: Do they see someone else and say, “Where did you get that?” and then they find you? How do they find you?   Colette: That happens. They might see someone else wearing one of my pieces. They might see something in a magazine. When I do editorials, people will call me. I'm in Toronto. I've had people call me from Vancouver after seeing something they like that they would like me to create for them. As I said, most of the pieces are either one or a limited edition. There might be pieces I've done when I can't recreate them exactly, but they might be in different colors. Maybe that color is for a particular client or whatever material is not available, so it's similar, but not exactly the same.   Sharon: What surprised you most about having all these requests?   Colette: I guess the most surprising thing is that there are actually people that love what I do. I don't know if surprising is the right word. I guess it's pleasing to know there are actually people that love it. I was known for these charm necklaces I've been doing for years. I had a woman that has maybe 30 of them.   Sharon: That's a lot.   Colette: I guess it's surprising and pleasing knowing that there are people that really love and appreciate my work.   Sharon: Do you have other collectors besides this woman with 30 pieces?   Colette: I would say I have maybe five people who—I know you're familiar with Carole Tanenbaum. She has quite a few of my pieces. Should I say their names?   Sharon: It's up to you.   Colette: There's a woman named Nella Rosmand who has quite a few of my pieces. I have a client that lives in Yellowknife. Her name is Lisa Tousar. She used to have a store in Yellowknife. I think she's closed it, but she's bought a number of pieces. I had a boutique for a while. She bought a lot of pieces. She loves my work. There are maybe five or six people that have quite a few pieces.   Sharon: Do they wear them more than once?   Colette: I guess so. I guess they wear them. A lot of what you see on Instagram, what you mostly see, a lot of those are—I put the really over-the-top, elaborate pieces there. But I do simple pieces as well. They're not always as elaborate as that. I also do some more subdued pieces.   Sharon: Your Guyanian and Canadian background, what influence does that have?   Colette: It's actually Guyanese. Guyanian means people probably think I'm from Ghana. Guyanese is the term. I came when I was five and I've been back twice. I don't know if being Guyanese has—maybe it's something that's subconscious, but it's not something I think about because I grew up here. I grew up within a multicultural city, so there are influences from many places, I think. I don't know if Guyana specifically has an influence on my work, unless it's subconscious. I've had people say that my pieces look very African. I've had women from Africa say that it reminds them of it. But I don't think it's something I think about or do intentionally; I just do.   I'm doing a project right now with George Brown College here in Toronto. One of the professors, Leah Barrett, approached me about studying my creative process. I chuckled to myself because I don't really have a creative process. I could sit down and sketch something, but once I start to make it, it turns into something completely different because I get ideas as I go. As I said, the materials speak to you. I create as I go along. If I have something in my mind from the start, when I finish it, it's something completely different. I don't really have a creative process. It sounds silly, but I just play. That's what I do. I play.   I have to be honest. There are pieces I've created over the years that I don't like, but a lot of times, those are the pieces that sell first. It's like, “Oh my gosh, I don't think anyone will ever buy that.” That's the piece that goes first. I've sold a lot of pieces off of my neck. That's happened quite a bit over the years. I remember once being at a party at a hotel in Toronto. I was in the washroom, and a woman said, “I love your necklace,” and I said, “Thank you,” and she was like, “I want that necklace.” I didn't want to sell it, but she insisted. She wrote me a check in the washroom and I sold it to her. I actually regret it because it was one of those pieces I could never make again, but I find that people always want what I'm wearing. I've regretted selling a couple of pieces over the years because I could never make them exactly the same again.   Sharon: That's interesting. You're your own best model in a sense.   Colette: Well, I make them for me, to be honest. If I wouldn't wear it, I couldn't make it. I think that's one of the reasons why I started creating my own leather accessories. I felt very restricted when I was working for—it was a company called Princeton Leathers. I always felt like I was in a box, and I just found it very difficult creating. There were two lines, one that was a luxurious line and one that was more simple. They would give me two findings and say, “O.K., now come up with something.” I was doing a dozen of these, and I found it very restrictive. If I won't wear it, I can't make it.   Sharon: Where do you get your ideas, if it's not from somebody who shows you something and says, “I want something done this way”? Where do you get ideas from?   Colette: I don't actively look for ideas. It's just things you see and it's collected in your subconscious. A lot of times, when I go and buy materials, I buy what I love, just pieces that I like. Sometimes they might be sitting on my desk for weeks and I have no idea what I'm going to do with them. Then one day, you might walk by and an idea just pops up in your head. I don't actively look.   That's one of the things I don't like about social media. You're seeing all of these things. I try not to look at other people's jewelry, but you see it and it does influence your work when you're looking at so many different things. I try not to look at it too much because I always want to be true to myself when I create. I don't like looking at other people's work too much because I find that it does influence you, whether you know it or not.   Sharon: Where do you look? Do you walk in the stores? Do you go downtown?   Colette: You know what? I was actually speaking to a friend the other day—he has a manufacturing company in India—saying that we should go out and see, because I have no idea what's in the stores. I don't pay attention to what's in or what's not in. Even at George Brown, in speaking with the students I'm working with, they were telling me that minimalism is back in style. I have no clue. I really don't. I don't know what's in or what's not. I don't pay attention to any of that. I never really liked rules. If you love something, then wear it. Who cares if it's in or if somebody else likes it? It doesn't matter. You're the one that's wearing it. It's how you feel in it. What other people think has no bearing. I've never understood that. This is in style or that isn't in—if you like something, if you love it, then wear it. Who cares? I've never paid attention to rules.   Sharon: What was the context of them saying that minimalism is back in style?   Colette: I can't remember what we were speaking about, but they were saying that maximalism is out and minimalism is in. You know how fashion goes in waves. I think that's like when I was doing the belts. I guess we were going into a period where belts weren't in style anymore, so people weren't really buying. Eventually I started doing more and more jewelry pieces. That's the thing; if you like belts, then wear belts. I guess with the wave of fashion and the way the system works, then the buyers aren't buying. But I never really paid attention to what's in.   Sharon: You closed your store. Now do you work out of your home or your studio?   Colette: I have a home studio, yes. I work out of my home.   Sharon: Do you have to go out and sell?   Colette: No, but I'm planning on opening up a showroom where people can actually buy things. I'm thinking about coming full circle and doing a line of leather belts and accessories and a little bit of jewelry as well, but I'm thinking about creating some leather pieces.   Sharon: Is that for stylists or is that for anybody who wants to come and look?   Colette: For anybody who wants to come in.   Sharon: Do they give you an idea of what they're looking for most of the time? Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, as you said. But do most people coming in say, “I want something big,” or “I want something more muted”? What do they say?   Colette: You mean if someone came in and they wanted me to create something for them?   Sharon: Yes.   Colette: Sometimes they might come with a picture from a magazine or something and say, “I really like this,” in terms of style or size or whatever. So, I would create something with that feeling or those colors. Sometimes they bring a swatch of fabric to match, or sometimes they have an actual garment they want me to create something to go with. They might see something on my Instagram or on another person, something they saw someone else wear. It works in many ways. But if I were to create belts and bags again, I would do a line of pieces and people would just buy from what's already created.   Sharon: Because it's easier?   Colette: Yeah, because it's easier. It would be easier. With the belts and bags, they would just buy from a line that's already created.   Sharon: I can see how that would be easier than picking out jewelry or creating something to go with a garment.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.  

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Gabriela made the leap from air traffic control to jewelry design, and when she knew it was time to quit her full-time job Where the inspiration for Latitude Jewelry's collections came from How Gabriela navigates selling her jewelry internationally Gabriela's advice for people who want to take a risk in their careers   About Gabriela Rodrigues Gabriela Rodrigues is the CEO and jewelry designer of Latitude Jewelry. Born in Brazil, her lifelong love affair with aviation and travel was sparked at an early age by her mother, Lúcia who was an air traffic controller.   Gabriela has always had an artistic side and a flair for fashion, having studied for a degree in Fashion Design at college. Her interest in designing jewelry began later, when she did a yearlong goldsmith course to indulge her creativity. It was also a welcome escape from her stressful and challenging work life in air traffic control. Friends and family wanted to buy her designs and her very first jewels were inspired by her experiences and travel background. Latitude Jewelry was born in 2019, and Gabriela took Amelia Earhart, a pioneer in aviation, as the inspiration for her first commercial range, the A.E Collection.   Additional Resources: Latitude Jewelry Website Instagram Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript:   Gabriela Rodrigues changed careers from air traffic controller to founder and designer of Latitude Jewelry, but she didn't leave her past behind. Her jewelry collections are inspired by everything from the sunsets she saw from her air traffic control tower to the aviation icon Amelia Earhart. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she undertook her career transition; how she fleshes out her many ideas; and how her past career prepared her for the challenges of entrepreneurship. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.   Today my guest is Gabriela Rodrigues. She's founder and CEO of Latitude Jewelry. She's speaking with us from Portugal, but she was born in Brazil and lived there for many years. Welcome back.    How else were you prepared? Were you prepared for the changes or the fast pace of business?   Gabriela: Since I decided to open this business, my goal in this business was always to be sold in all places—in as many places around the world. So, I was preparing myself for this. I studied about taxes, customs, pricing, currency and everything. I was very well-prepared, not only about the designing part of the business. I studied how to develop a collection, branding, marketing, but also how to manage a business, pricing jewelry, because it's very different from other kinds of products. I'm always studying and preparing myself to be where I am. Does it mean I know everything? No. I'm far from it. I'm always desperate, but I think I'm doing my best to be here. So, I've been preparing myself since I decided to have a business.   Sharon: How is pricing jewelry different from other commodities?   Gabriela: That's another problem from Brazil because we deal with the gold prices now, but this is something that everyone deals with in the industry. We also have the problem of currency because we negotiate all gemstones in dollars. The ups and downs of payout in dollars make it a mess for us to price our jewelry there. It's kind of crazy because one day the currency exchange is O.K., the other day the dollar goes up. It's insane how we do things there.    Of course, the gold is something the industry, wherever you go, is having trouble with. If there's a rise in gold prices, all the industry will suffer from this. The dollar price exchange with the Brazilian real is a mess. It complicates a lot of our business there because we are not selling in dollars; we are selling in real, so if the dollar goes up—our costs are in dollars and also the gold prices. It's insane, but we do our best.   Sharon: Does the inflation allow you to make money overall?   Gabriela: I think inflation doesn't really get to people who have money to invest in jewelry. In general, of course. It's more about reaching your target. I don't think about inflation, but I think about the mood in the countries. If you try to understand how everything is going during a political problem, this can make it worse or better, but not inflation itself. People who really have money to buy jewelry, it won't affect them that much, I think. So, you're able to make money.   Sharon: You've mentioned that Amelia Earhart is an inspiration to you. Why is that?   Gabriela: Even before working on that airline, I knew her history about being a pilot during a time that there weren't many women pilots. She was so adventurous, so smart. She worked as a nurse during the war. She had her own clothing line. She was an amazing and complete woman, not only a pilot. She was always challenging herself. Even before working in aviation, she was an inspiration for me.    So, when I came up with the name and what I was doing for my first collection, I felt she was a great person to take inspiration from for my first collection because of her strength, her adventurous spirit. I liked her even before working in aviation. So, that's it.    Sharon: I didn't know that she was all those things, besides being a pilot whom everybody knows. You mentioned a collection. If you have one pendant, that's not a collection. Is it a connection to things? What is a collection?   Gabriela: The first collection we made was to Amelia Earhart. It was five or six pieces of jewelry, like earrings, necklaces, all with the same motif, the compass and her last flight route. That was one collection. I also have an Around the World collection where I have these pendants. This is a kind of collection that I consider Latitude classics. I'm always adding designs to this collection. It starts with small pendants, and now I have a smaller one. I have a locket. Now, we are about to launch a spinning globe where you can set stones in the places that are important to you. So, this is a collection I'm always adding new jewelry to, new designs.   There is the Twenty-Four Hours collection that was inspired by my sunset. Usually when I talk about collections, I mean at least three or four jewelry pieces with the same motif. But I always do one piece or one jewel or one ring outside of the collections just because I feel like it and I have an inspiration I think will work. So, I create pieces without collections also, not being part of collections.   Sharon: The pieces that aren't part of a collection, do you think someday they might grow into their own collection?   Gabriela: The first collection grew. The first collection was the first five pieces. Now there are more than 10 because I'm always adding designs to this collection. Around the World also started with only one pendant and now we have pendants, earrings, necklaces, lockets because it's all about the globe. Twenty-Four Hours is another collection. I want to add some new designs to this. If my mind and my creativity give me another idea, I can add a new piece to these collections. I don't have any problem with it. I just do whatever my mind asks me to.    Sharon: What is your favorite gem you like to work with, like behind the gold map? Let's say you overlay something.   Gabriela: Lapis lazuli. It's my favorite since before having Latitude. I love the intensity of the blue, and I think it matches the globe perfectly, the map. The stones have inclusions, these fades, sometimes in white and gold, so it looks like you're actually looking at the earth from outside when you put it behind the map. I love the way it looks in the world pendant, but it's a gemstone I really liked even before. I really liked the color. I used to work with it on the bench with contrasting color stones. I have an earring I made myself with lapis lazuli and another stone. The contrast of the colors is amazing. I love that earring. Yeah, it's my favorite stone, lapis lazuli.   Sharon: Is it harder to work with than other stones? Is it more difficult or less pliable, or does it shatter more easily?   Gabriela: No. This design is like a rounded cabochon behind the map. I have done it with different quartzes, smoky quartz, onyx. Malachite also looks great. It's just your favorite color. You can choose and put it behind your favorite stone. There's a friend who wants me to make one in amethyst. I promised her. I need to take care of it. I'm going to do it.   Sharon: Do you have a list on your website where the customer chooses the stone and sends it off to you for the order?   Gabriela: No. We have many options separated so you can choose, but we also have the contact form if they want. If they want to change any color or any stone, just contact us. If it's a stone we don't have and we've never worked with before, we are glad to look for it and tell the client if it's possible. We will work on it. If it's not possible to have it on that piece, we are very open. We like the ideas that sometimes come up. They come up with nice ideas, so we are there for them. We just want it to be meaningful to the person who buys it.   Sharon: You have talked about the map of the sky that looks like you're looking down at earth from the sky. Have you considered making a map of the sky or a celestial map?   Gabriela: Yes, actually, I have a client who keeps asking me to design—we have a constellation in Brazil. We see it from there and it's very known. I have this client. She keeps saying to me, “You need to design that.” I've been thinking about how to get this constellation into a piece for her. Sometimes I have this idea of working with stars and constellations, but I have so many ideas. I need to organize my mind step by step, choose what I'm doing next. I keep my ideas, my notes. One day.   Sharon: How do you home in on what you want to do next or what you're doing now? How do you narrow it down?    Gabriela: I don't. I'm a total mess in this case. I'm always doing one million things and seeing what's coming, what's ready first. I keep a huge amount of notes, a huge amount of designs. I send them to the manufacturer, to the 3D modelists, and I work with what I have in my hands. Someone gave me back this one that works, so let's do this. Sometimes I sit down and organize everything.    We had a child's collection in Brazil. That was very nice to work with. I had a person help me with the design, the sketching. The ideas were mine, but we worked together and created this beautiful collection for kids. Sometimes I just choose what I'm doing next, but I'm usually overwhelmed with ideas and designs. I never know exactly what is next. That's how my mind works.   Sharon: Do you ramp up for the holidays? I realize you haven't been in business that long, but do you do more because of the holidays, because of Christmas and New Year's and everything that's coming? Do you ramp up?   Gabriela: Yes, we usually get prepared four months before. We reorganize our inventory, see what has sold better. Maybe sometimes we come up with a new design to sell during the holidays. I think it's the best time to sell jewelry. It's Christmas and Mother's Day, maybe, but mostly Christmas, Valentine's—not for Brazilians. Valentine's is another date; it's not the 14th of February. In Brazil, we celebrate it in June, I think. It's also a good time to organize and make pieces and to think about how to offer this jewelry and make more sales.   Sharon: When you were designing jewelry and doing air traffic control at the same time, did you daydream about being a full-time jewelry designer?   Gabriela: Yes, all the time. Since I decided to go with opening the company, opening Latitude, that was always my dream. But it's hard because I had a very nice job, and every month my payment was there. It's not a decision you make just because I wanted to live from my jewelry and from my creativity. It needs to be calculated. So, when I felt I was comfortable with the brand, the brand was reaching what I expected from it, then I decided to quit. For example, I wasn't able to travel because of my job. It was contrasting. I couldn't do what was needed for Latitude because I had a job. When it came to this, I decided to quit, but it was like four years of wanting to but I couldn't. I'm not impulsive at all, so I do very calculated things to do them the best way possible.    Sharon: What was your calculation to leave? You couldn't travel, let's say. What was your catalyst? What was the big steppingstone?   Gabriela: I don't think there was a big step, a milestone, for this. It was just step by step, seeing how Latitude was growing and selling better and appearing in some magazines, seeing that people really liked my jewelry. I wasn't happy in my job. Now I remember. I was about to take part in Inhorgenta in Munich, the jewelry fair. I was working, and I said, “I won't send anyone in my place to take care of the Latitude stand. I need to go there. I need to see how people react to my jewelry. I want to participate in that and then I can create.” By that time, I couldn't have any vacation or holidays. I said, “O.K., Latitude is working nicely, making some money. I'll be able to leave for Latitude. Now it's demanding my full attention.” I think it was this, participating in Munich in the Inhorgenta fair. I needed to quit because I couldn't send anyone else in my place. I really wanted to be there representing my designs, representing my brand. That's why I think I was there.   Sharon: Was that part of your calculation, that you had to be in charge, or you had to be on the front lines seeing what people thought?   Gabriela: Yes, I think it's important for you to see how people react to your product. Of course, we are designers; we love to create things. Sometimes, when you are a designer, you don't really care about how people react to your business because you just want to create something that fulfills your creative side. But when you have a business and you need to make money from that, it's your business; it's your way of life now. You need to see how the customer will react to your product, and you need to make adjustments if they're needed. Nobody better than me. Anyone could do this. Someone could be there in Munich and say, “People like your jewelry,” and those were the comments, but I needed to be there to see how they reacted. I'm the designer, but I'm also the owner of this company. I need to make it work.    Sharon: What were some of the comments you got that motivated you to take the next step, to leave air traffic control?   Gabriela: I was growing. I was appearing in some magazines. I was starting to sell more frequently, and I was unhappy in my job. It was more about how I was feeling in that job, and how I felt that I was failing with this new business because I couldn't have my attention fully directed to the business. It was a time that I couldn't keep doing that the way I was. It wasn't about what people think.    Actually, people always say—not my mom; she was always very supportive—but people say, “You're going to quit this job? It's such an important job. You have your payment every month. You are going to follow your dream?” I went, “Yes, that's it.” I don't regret it at all. I miss my friends. I miss the job. At the end, I wasn't happy, but I was proud of being an air traffic controller. But it wasn't what I wanted to be anymore. People were saying, “Don't do that,” and I went and did it. I quit and I'm very happy now. I'm happier than I was, and that's it. You don't have to follow the others. Just go with your plan. I always planned in advance, so it wasn't a surprise to anyone that I quit because I was doing it step by step. When the moment came, I just quit. You don't have to involve the others. Just don't do it.   Sharon: Pardon?   Gabriela: Don't care about the others' opinions. Just don't do it. If they really want what is best for you, it's their idea of best and not yours. It's not what's going to really fulfill you and your dreams in your life. So, just go for it.   Sharon: That's good advice. Thank you very much for being with us today. We really appreciate it.   Gabriela: Thank you, Sharon, for having me. It was a pleasure to talk to you.    Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Gabriela made the leap from air traffic control to jewelry design, and when she knew it was time to quit her full-time job Where the inspiration for Latitude Jewelry's collections came from How Gabriela navigates selling her jewelry internationally Gabriela's advice for people who want to take a risk in their careers   About Gabriela Rodrigues Gabriela Rodrigues is the CEO and jewelry designer of Latitude Jewelry. Born in Brazil, her lifelong love affair with aviation and travel was sparked at an early age by her mother, Lúcia who was an air traffic controller.   Gabriela has always had an artistic side and a flair for fashion, having studied for a degree in Fashion Design at college. Her interest in designing jewelry began later, when she did a yearlong goldsmith course to indulge her creativity. It was also a welcome escape from her stressful and challenging work life in air traffic control. Friends and family wanted to buy her designs and her very first jewels were inspired by her experiences and travel background. Latitude Jewelry was born in 2019, and Gabriela took Amelia Earhart, a pioneer in aviation, as the inspiration for her first commercial range, the A.E Collection.   Additional Resources: Latitude Jewelry Website Instagram Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript:   Gabriela Rodrigues changed careers from air traffic controller to founder and designer of Latitude Jewelry, but she didn't leave her past behind. Her jewelry collections are inspired by everything from the sunsets she saw from her air traffic control tower to the aviation icon Amelia Earhart. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she undertook her career transition; how she fleshes out her many ideas; and how her past career prepared her for the challenges of entrepreneurship. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    Today, my guest is Gabriela Rodrigues. How do you say your whole name?   Gabriela: Gabriela Rodrigues da Cunha, but Gabriela Rodrigues is O.K.   Sharon: And you're founder and CEO of Latitude Jewelry. She's speaking with us from Portugal, but she was born in Brazil and lived there for many years. In 200 episodes of the Jewelry Journey, I've talked to people all over the world. I've also talked to many people who did not originally start out in jewelry. Maybe they were in finance or another profession they didn't find creatively fulfilling. Somehow, they discovered jewelry, and they were put on that path. I've talked to many guests, but this is the first time I've talked to anyone who used to be an air traffic controller. After working in this profession in Brazil for seven years, she decided she wasn't being creatively fulfilled and started her jewelry journey. We'll hear all about that today. Gabriela, welcome to the podcast.    Gabriela: Thank you, Sharon, for having me. I'm very glad to be here.   Sharon: That's such a big swing, an air traffic controller to jewelry.   Gabriela: Yes, certainly. It's been a crazy path.   Sharon: Had you ever studied jewelry making before?   Gabriela: Yes. In 2017, I was very stressed by my job as an air traffic controller, and I found out there were jewelry places in my city, as in most cities. I was very surprised. I went there to calm down my mind. Here I am now, a jewelry designer with my own brand.   Sharon: Did you think about designs as you were beating with the hammers to make something?   Gabriela: Yeah. The first day I entered, I learned some techniques. It was a very basic class just to show me what it was about, but in the second class, I was full of ideas. I created a ring that was my best seller then. It was a very nice and inventive ring. People loved it so much that I had to make a rubber mold of this ring. I sold like 10 of it, and I said, “Maybe I can do that.” That was how my business started and this new job and profession. I've always been creating things in my mind since that time.   Sharon: Did that ring, that rubber mold, encompass the latitude on the world map?   Gabriela: No, that was another design. It was like 2017, but it was very nice. I really wanted to bring it to my business, but it was kind of narrow, and it was for two fingers. It was a two-finger ring, and it was very inventive and beautiful. Latitude came in 2019, two years after, when I really decided to have a business. I did all the branding process to understand what I wanted to create, what I wanted to sell. Then we had all the development of the collection with the compass. The world pendant has another nice history. I can tell you.   Sharon: Please tell us.   Gabriela: It's funny, because I was doing the class just to calm down my mind. I created this beautiful ring, but on the very first day, I also had this idea of creating the world rolled in gold and lapis lazuli. I created that pendant in my mind the very first time I went to the class, the second time. I could only see it in gold and gemstone four years later. I spent all the time doing this class with this piece in my mind. It was just a class where I wanted to create beautiful things and calm my mind, but that was the first piece I imagined. It was the globe with lapis lazuli and gold.   Two or three years later, when I decided to have my business and was doing the branding, I came up with the name. It was kind of a coincidence. One year or six months later after the launching of Latitude, I made that piece. I think it was meant to be called Latitude and be about travelling and my passion. So, the pendant came first. Latitude came after. It was like a coincidence, a very nice coincidence and maybe destiny, I might say.   Sharon: Like your fate, your destiny. Did you consider anything else besides jewelry when you wanted to start your own business?   Gabriela: I was very stressed in my job. I was always trying to figure out something to do, maybe clothing, shoes. I had been a shoe designer before, but I was like, “I don't really believe in how fashion is going nowadays.” You have to create pieces, new collections, like every two weeks or you're left behind. So, I wasn't sure. I knew I wanted a business, a new life, but I couldn't figure out what I would do.    Then I went to the class not thinking at all about a business, and I just fell in love. It wasn't a choice. Jewelry chose me. That's how it had been. It wasn't my choice, like “I'm going to work with jewelry.” No, I just noticed how amazing this business is, to create something from metal and gold and how much effort and work you have to put in your creations. So, jewelry chose me, and I just follow it.    Sharon: What made you think you could run and build a jewelry company?   Gabriela: Good question. I wanted a business, and I wanted to quit being an air traffic controller. That wasn't really a choice. I just did what I needed to do to accomplish what I wanted, which was working with something that fulfills me in other ways creatively and being able to travel to meet people around the world, creating beautiful and meaningful things that people connect to. I think it was natural. I just wanted people to get to know my pieces, my jewelry. It was natural that was creating a business.   Sharon: You became an air traffic controller because of something your mother said to you. What did she say to you? That's what your website says.    Gabriela: Actually, she was an air traffic controller. So, it wasn't something she said, but something she was. She became an air traffic controller when I was 15. By then, I understood what the job was. It's hard. It's stressful, but I didn't have an idea of how challenging, how difficult and how smart she needs to be. When I was older, I went to work at an airline in the same airport where she works. She's still an air traffic controller. I started to talk to the pilots and they said, “Your mom is an air traffic controller? Oh, she must be awesome. I want to meet her. This is such a hard job. She's probably very smart and intelligent. I want to meet her, and I want to visit the tower.” I was like, “Oh.”    Working in aviation, I started to understand how big and important this job is. Then that spark hit me, and I said, “O.K., I can do that.” I always admired my mom, but I really didn't have an idea of what she was doing until I started working with an airline. Then I went for the tests and all the training, and I became an air traffic controller myself for almost eight years, I think.    Sharon: When you decided to go into other things, because you did a few different things before you ended up in jewelry, did she say, “Gabriela, why are you leaving? You've put so much into this”?   Gabriela: I think she was always supportive. Anything I wanted to do or decided to do in my life, she was always there for me, supporting me. Of course, giving me advice and trying to show me what she thinks is best, but she was always very supportive. It wasn't a quick change. I didn't decide to start the jewelry thing and quit immediately. I worked in both jobs for almost four years. Since I decided to open Latitude, I spent four years working both in the company and in air traffic control. I quit air control to take care of Latitude full time last year in February. It's been like one-and-a-half years that I've been only an entrepreneur and owner of Latitude and a designer. So, it was a long process that brought me here, and she was always there supporting me.   Sharon: Your website says you have a flair for fashion. Can you give us some examples of that?   Gabriela: Yes, when I was child, I really wanted to be a fashion designer or a costume designer. There was a time I really wanted to design costumes for movies and TV shows. I was always passionate about this. I know a bit about how to make clothes and design clothes. I was really into fashion. My major in college was fashion. I have a fashion design degree. I also worked as a footwear designer for a while. Almost a year, I think, I'd been designing shoes.    Sharon: If you were pursuing fashion, did you know you were going to be an air traffic controller at that time?   Gabriela: No. What happened is when I went to college, I really didn't feel like I fit. I wasn't comfortable there, but it was my dream from my teenage years, my childhood. I was like, “What am I doing here?” After graduating, I went to design shoes. I was a bit happier, but I still was not feeling like I belonged there. I was very emotional and sad, not knowing what to do in my life, and my mom told me, “Come back and start working at the airport.”    I found myself a job at an airline and I was thinking about my life. By then I was like 20 years old, 21 years old. I was very young. Then working at this airline, I decided to follow my mom's steps. I've been totally in aviation. My mind was totally on aviation for 10 years. I can't remember a day that I'd pick up a pencil to design anything. It was like 10 years of blank in my creativity. I didn't create anything during this time.    Sharon: When you did travel, did that influence how you saw jewelry or how you drew jewelry? Did it influence you?   Gabriela: Now, when I travel, I'm always inspired, not only to design jewelry. When I'm traveling, I get overwhelmed with things. I see the color, the people, this mall of places and food, and I start creating everything. Even homeware is floating in my mind. I have so many ideas, and the way I choose to translate these ideas and these thoughts is jewelry because I feel comfortable designing jewelry. I think it's a very meaningful object, and it's long lasting. Jewelry is forever if you take care of it. I think the best way to translate my experiences is in jewelry. My travels help me to keep my mind running and full of colors and ideas.    Sharon: Do you ever take a pencil to paper and put down some of these ideas, the housewares or other things?   Gabriela: Yes, I actually have many ideas for housewares or leather goods. I want to have some leather goods in addition to jewelry because I think it matches. Like the cover of a jewelry box, those kinds of things. Yes, I'm always creating. I have notebooks full—and yes, they're real notebooks, not iPads or anything. I like paper. I'm always sketching things, like, “One day I'm going to build this,” and maybe I will. I keep my ideas well preserved and saved for the time I will need them.    Sharon: Did you see jewelry as a way to connect to people?   Gabriela: Yes, most of the time it's about family traditions and family histories. I want mine to be that. I create my pieces to connect people and start conversations, to make people talk about their experiences, their memories, their dreams, their wishes, their adventures. Jewelry is able to create these connections to people. I'm very proud to be working with such an amazing object.   Sharon: Do you consider jewelry, your pieces specifically, a conversation starter?   Gabriela: Yes, I think so. If you're living in my world, I think most of the people who buy my jewelry have this kind of lifestyle, the same wishes and dreams. If I see someone with a piece of jewelry like the ones I design, I'm always getting information and trying to understand what the meaning behind that piece is. I'm sure my jewelry does this to people, because I receive emails from clients sometimes. All this is so meaningful. Someone started to talk to me, and I had to tell him about my history with this country or the Morocco collection. I told this person about the history of this pendant and how it is meaningful for me. So yes, I think my jewelry starts conversations and inspires people. They start talking about the meaning behind this jewelry.    Sharon: Have you ever seen somebody wearing a piece and gone up to them and said, “Hey, that's mine,” or “Why are you wearing that?”   Gabriela: No, not like that, because the people that I would be able to meet, I've already had this conversation with them before they buy from me. But they always tell me why they are buying and how meaningful that jewelry is for them because of the stone, because of the history behind it, because of their lifestyle, their adventures, their spirit. I'm always in touch with these clients to know why they are buying this jewelry. They are always very happy to tell me.    Sharon: It's like a focus group, but they're not a focus group. They give you feedback, but they're not formally giving it to you.   Gabriela: Right.   Sharon: On your website, you also say that you have some moments of pure beauty. They're few and far between, but can you tell us some of them?   Gabriela: Yeah, on the website, we're talking about the sunsets I experienced from the tower when I was an air traffic controller. I missed this view so much. I used to work in a very high tower with a view. The weather in Brazil at some times of the year is very dry, so the sky during the sunset gets the most colorful shades I've ever seen in the sky. It goes from very light blue, it becomes pink, and then you see that it's red. The sky is fully red. Then it starts to become orange, then it's violet, and here comes the night. It's so beautiful. I've been traveling a lot. I've been to many of the most beautiful sunsets in the world, because every place you visit has the most beautiful sunset, but I've never experienced a sunset as I experienced in my tower where I used to work. It was just amazing. This view was the best ever during sunset.   Of course, I'm always traveling, so I've been seeing many beautiful things. My first trip was to the U.S. alone, by myself. I remember getting to the Grand Canyon, and it was such an amazing view. I was mesmerized. I didn't have any reaction more than just looking. I was thankful and grateful. I was like, “This is what I want to do forever.” It's just being able to see the beauty in the world. The Grand Canyon was a great experience. I think that was the place that started my wish to travel and experience the most phenomenal world.    Sharon: I'm impressed that you went to the U.S. by yourself and you traveled around by yourself. Wow! Tell us how your business works. Who are your clients? Do you have male jewelry? Do you just design? How does that work?   Gabriela: I mostly sell online in Brazil and worldwide. In Brazil, we usually work from Instagram and WhatsApp. We have an online store, but all sales are mostly done on Instagram and the international website. I can ship to any country in the world now. We have some genderless jewelry, but we are working on a male collection, and I think they're liked. We're also trying to get some retailers. We've been talking to some. Soon, I think the jewelry will be available in some stores around the U.S. and in Europe. Let's cheer for the best. I think we'll be taking over the world soon. I hope so.   Sharon: I hope so too, if only for your sake. So, you design and then you give it to somebody else to make.   Gabriela: Yes, I make all the designs. The designs are exclusive. I do everything, and I have the manufacturers here in Portugal and in Brazil produce the jewelry. I have a high standard of quality with gemstones and everything. I'm very careful with the quality of the product.   Sharon: I don't know how it works, but you have an Instagram. If I order something from Brazil, is it the same as ordering from an international Instagram?   Gabriela: No, I have the same Instagram, but I have two websites. If you search for Latitude online if you're in the U.S., you'll find out our international website. If someone in Brazil searches for Latitude Jewelry online, they will find our Brazilian website. The Instagram is an account where we show our pieces, our jewelry. It's still only one account, but I'm probably getting an international Instagram. In Brazil, all the business I make is on Instagram and WhatsApp. They just reach out to me and ask whatever they want to know about the jewelry they are buying. Of course, we can change to WhatsApp, but here and internationally, it's only online. If someone asks me on Instagram, I can help, but the business is here. Internationally, business is done online, not on Instagram. That's the difference between places.    Sharon: I know you can sometimes order from Instagram if you click “Buy” or whatever. What's the most surprising thing you've encountered being an entrepreneur with Latitude Jewelry as opposed to an air traffic controller? What did you not expect?   Gabriela: I expected everything, to be honest. I was excited to open the business. I was very prepared emotionally for the pressure I would find, maybe not as much pressure. I'm used to working under pressure as an air traffic controller, but I think running a business, running a company, there's a lot more pressure. So, at least I was well-trained as an air traffic controller. I can do pretty well with the pressure of being an entrepreneur. I wasn't surprised because I was very well prepared to be where I am now.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode:   Why it's harder to find quality vintage and modern costume jewelry today than in years past How Rosie secured a spot as an appraiser on Antiques Roadshow  What Rosie looks for in the pieces she collects, wears and sells in her shop Where the term “costume jewelry” came from and its history Why Rosie is one of the only people in America who will repair costume jewelry   About Rosie Sayyah Rosie Sayyah has been selling and repairing vintage and estate jewelry from her shop, Rhinestone Rosie, in Seattle since 1984. In the early 1980s, Rosie felt her family tradition of dealing in antiques calling to her. Upon leaving her corporate career in television, she decided to open a jewelry store that not only had unique, exciting items for sale, but also where she could restore greatness to jewelry that had fallen into disrepair. Teaching herself about vintage costume and estate jewelry culture and repair through books, hobby shops, and hands-on experience, Rosie has become a national expert in the field. In the late 1990s, she began appearing regularly on “Antiques Roadshow” on PBS TV and continues today as one of their expert appraisers.   Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional resources: Website Instagram Facebook Twitter   Transcript: Rosalie Sayyah, aka Rhinestone Rosie, first got jewelry lovers' attention as an appraiser on Antiques Roadshow. But she has earned her customers' loyalty for her ability to repair vintage costume jewelry and perfectly match missing rhinestones when no one else can. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why so few jewelers will repair costume jewelry; what she looks for in the pieces she buys; and how to start a costume jewelry collection of your own. Read the episode transcript here.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    Today, I'm talking with Rhinestone Rosie. You may already be familiar with Rosie. She has her own retail outlet in Seattle, and she does a strong mail order business. You may be familiar with her by seeing her on Antiques Roadshow giving the price of vintage jewelry to people who want to know. Welcome back.   Sharon: Why don't they make them anymore?   Rosie: I don't know exactly why, but take a company like Schreiner. They're so collectable. Most of the stones that were put in that jewelry in the 50s and 60s came from a secret stash that he had from the early 20s and 30s. They just don't make them anymore. A lot of new jewelry is Lucite, plastic stones, not glass, not crystal, so there is a problem with soldering, of course.   Sharon: That's interesting. I didn't think about that. Do you ever have a problem letting something go if somebody brings in a whole collection, and you're going to sell 9% of the pieces, but you want one that you want to hold onto for whatever reason?   Rosie: I'm not sure I understand that question.    Sharon: Do you ever have a problem or a question of letting something go when somebody brings in 99 pieces?   Rosie: I want to buy it and they don't want to sell it?   Sharon: Or they want to sell it and you think you should be selling it, but you can't let it go, so you buy it?   Rosie: Of course, yes. There are pieces that never hit the sales floor, you bet.   Sharon: That's interesting. Do you teach classes on vintage jewelry and rhinestones? You said you do a lot of talking.   Rosie: The only thing I've done lately has been the talks. I used to do classes in my shop. I would drag chairs from the tavern down the block. But we've rearranged the floor plan of our shop, and it doesn't suit itself very well. I'm still very, very aware of Covid, I'm sorry. I do wear a mask when I'm in my shop. People don't have to wear a mask if they come in. That's why we're only open three days a week, to limit exposure. I probably wouldn't do classes that way for a while. I've taught a few one-on-one people how to repair, especially soldering. People wanted to learn, but it's just practice.   Sharon: It is hard. That's a good way to look at it. I don't have the patience for that, but you're right, it is practice. You say that you're self-taught. Have you taken any makers' classes besides reading books, any education?   Rosie: The only thing I've done is I've gone to a lot of—there were conventions and seminars back East and also on the West Coast over the years. Through the years, I've attended a lot of those, but it wasn't repairing. It was just learning more about what things are, what they look like and what I want them to look like at the end. Both of my parents were older, so I grew up with an atmosphere not from the 50s and 60s, but the 30s, 40s, 20s. It just soaked into me how things looked, what they liked.    I've learned from other people, other dealers, about what they like, what they sell and sharing that information. I've also learned from my contemporaries on the Roadshow, invaluable stuff, but no classes. There is really nobody that could teach me that because in schools they don't do what we do. I don't use an open flame torch; I use a pencil soldering iron, various glues. It's tricky. You can easily melt a piece and destroy it for a customer. You have to be very, very careful.   Sharon: Has that ever happened to you, that you've destroyed a customer's piece accidentally?   Rosie: No, it's been more of my own. I do a lot of repairing on my own. I'll buy a broken piece and fix it. I'm knocking on wood here. I haven't had that problem, totally destroying something.    Sharon: When you refer out to people who work with gold, let's say, do they ever look down on you or look down on what you're doing because it's not real?   Rosie: If they do, they'd better not tell me because I'm sending them business. But I get that feedback a lot from people. They say they've taken this jewelry into their jeweler and they pooh-pooh it. “No, no, we can't fix that. We don't work with that stuff,” so they send them to me.   Sharon: I was thinking they say, “We don't work with that stuff.” It's too cheap or it's not real or it's whatever.   Rosie: Yeah, whatever it is. I don't know. I think that's not a good customer relations attitude.    Sharon: I think that makes a lot of sense. Did you have any—I'll use the word compunction. Did you have any reservations or compunction about centering your life around costume jewelry and rhinestones?   Rosie: If you saw my house, you'd realize that I'm a major gardener. I'm very physical and active. I walk a lot. I read a lot. But I don't bring my stuff home per se. I don't have a storeroom here in my house. The pictures behind me are my husband's. He's traveled all over the world taking photographs. It is a life built around it. That's fine and that's who I am, but I'm also a different person that is totally devoid of any kind of sparkle.    Sharon: What is your favorite kind of costume? You mentioned 50 watches. What is your favorite kind of jewelry?   Rosie: I like necklaces. I think a necklace can transform the whole image of the outfit you have on and the way you feel about yourself. It's one of the things we can see when we have it on. We can see rings, watches, bracelets. We can't see earrings. We have to look in a mirror. But a necklace, it can be a real changer to you. I know a lot of people wear necklaces 24/7. I don't. I don't have a little gold chain on with a little diamond or anything like that, but I like necklaces and brooches. I wear more jackets in the winter, so I wear a lot of brooches, but I wear necklaces with my outfits year-round, so that would have to be it. I also wear rings and watches.   Sharon: What would you think if someone wanted to collect costume jewelry or rhinestone jewelry? Where should we start? Is there somebody we're not looking at?   Rosie: I would say buy what appeals to you and wear it and see if you like it. I don't like to focus anybody on a certain name or area. Most people, when I ask them how they started or how they collect, they say, “Oh, I buy these things that shine.” That's one way to do it. If you happen to find a name you like, I would say you can focus on those pieces, but I don't try to steer anybody in any certain direction. I just say buy what you like and enjoy it. It doesn't matter what anybody else says to you. That's how I buy.   Sharon: Do you think the stuff that is around today is as long-lasting as the stuff of yesteryear?   Rosie: No, not at all. Glue and plastic and that kind of thing, the way they're made, no. Back in the 40s and 50s, these pieces were all hand-set. They were all prong-set or glued in individually if they were not prong-set. Today, it's more mass hot glue gun, stick them on, pile the stones on, and they just fall off. The settings are not strong. I would agree with you. Contemporary jewelry does have some issues.   Sharon: I've been stopped sometimes in a good way, like, “Oh, that's a pretty necklace. It's shiny.” I don't buy it, but I don't not buy it because of the money. In my head, I think, “Oh, that won't last that long,” not because it's not made well, but because it's a contemporary piece. Do you know what I mean?   Rosie: I do know what you mean, yes. People go to Hawaii and buy the nut necklaces. It's what I call tourist quality. They even did that back at the turn of the century. When people were on the Grand Tour, they would buy little pieces of jewelry. They're better made than our tourist quality today, but it was still way lower quality. That's when the industrial revolution came in and made things able to be mass-produced. Then they could sell it better. Not just the aristocracy would have jewelry, but anybody could have jewelry. That really did change, too. The commoner can have a little pin or whatever.   Sharon: The necklace you have on has big, bold stones. Is that the way it started? Did people have less conspicuous things, and then they became used to that and started having things that are big and bold?   Rosie: Yes, in the 50s after the war, people wanted to celebrate the American way. This is America. This is screaming, “We are big and bold!” If you think of cocktail parties, cocktail rings, your jewelry wouldn't just have one necklace. This necklace has a matching bracelet, earrings and a brooch and maybe even a ring. The women would be totally decked out in this. I think it's totally an American quality, really out there, very proud of what they have, big and bold. That's what happened in the 50s and 60s, but we didn't get our ears pierced until the 60s. We were still wearing the clip-on earrings, because a loose woman would have her ears pierced. That was funny.   Sharon: My mom would say, “Whatever.” Have you ever seen a piece that's too—I want to use the word gaudy without saying it's gaudy, but it was too big and bold?   Rosie: Oh yeah, I have. Something about it would be a little demonic or something, but it had those elements to it. Oh yeah, I've seen that, but that's O.K. It's just an expression of what that person wanted to make, and I can totally understand that. There were two guys, DeLizza and Elster, and we call it D&E Jewelry. They just started making stuff they liked, and that's usually some of the best jewelry, I think. You just let it flow. Make what you like.   Sharon: I didn't mean to interrupt, but they were D&E and they segued to Juliana?   Rosie: Juliana, I think, and I might be mistaken, was the name of one of their daughters. They didn't sign the jewelry. It only had paper tags, but there are certain industrial components to the jewelry that I can identify that it's by D&E or Juliana. We call it Juliana. Schreiner is another company. There are certain elements of Schreiner jewelry you can identify if it's not signed. Miriam Haskell had a certain quality to her jewelry that you could identify. There are other names, too. Trifari had a certain quality. Even though they had different designers, there was always a certain quality to the jewelry. You could pick it out. When I go to a sale, I can narrow in and get through all the other stuff and pick out certain pieces that I want.   Sharon: Yeah, with costume jewelry, the challenge is that so much is not signed.   Rosie: Yes.   Sharon: It is. That's interesting, that you can pick out the ones you think are different makers or you can tell from the way they're made.   Rosie: Exactly. Sometimes, the first thing I do is look at the back of the piece. I tell people, “Look at the back and see how it's made. It'll give you some clues.”   Sharon: What are you looking for?   Rosie: I'm looking for what kind of catch it has, the hinge and stem, the material it's made of. Is the back hand-polished? Is it not hand-polished? How heavy is it in my hand? What type of stones did they use? How are the stones set? Are they fully pronged or is it just a glued-in stone? Those little clues tell me a lot.   Sharon: Do you think that's over with? All the manufacturing techniques you're talking about, do you think nobody's doing them?   Rosie: I'm not up to speed on exactly—I know Iradj Moini, he had some fabulous, well-done pieces. He used all the old techniques, and that's the newest designer I have. A lot of stuff is being made in China. Joan Rivers' stuff is being made in China. J. Laine is being made in China. They're good, but they still don't have all of that total, hand-touched stuff. Heidi Daus, I like her pieces. They're very colorful and bold. I got a whole estate of it, and they sold like boom, boom, boom. People were like, “Wow, I like this!” She uses bold colors, but they're not prong-set; they're just glued in. I have to say that fine jewelry maybe has some of those elements of the manufacturing process, but costume jewelry is slowly going away from that. They can't afford to do it.   Sharon: Yeah, I can understand.   Rosie: No, mm-hmm.    Sharon: Especially with what's coming in from China, it's hard to tell what's real and what's a copy.   Rosie: Yeah. I do like a lot of stuff coming out of India. They do a very good job of stone setting and stone cutting. I like some of those contemporary pieces, but I'm just not—maybe somebody out there can give me a little heads up and tell me who's doing what. I would definitely appreciate that.   Sharon: If we're not in Seattle, you work nationally, don't you? You work nationally and you have a website.   Rosie: Oh yeah, people can mail us stuff. I don't go look at something in Alabama. I'm not going to travel to look at your collection, but you can always send me an email or a picture and ask questions or if you want something repaired. Definitely, go to our website, get the address, boom, mail to us. When I receive it, I look at it. I get you on the phone. I like to talk to you on the phone and say, “O.K., I've got your stuff. This is what I can do. I can't do this.”    I have a lady in New York. She sells antique purses. She's been a customer for years. She'll send me huge boxes of purses. I have two hatpin collectors, dealers. They send huge boxes, one back East. Actually, I think she's in Washington, too. Anyway, dealers have no problem at all once they discover what we do, because it's very time-consuming to do and our prices are quite reasonable.   Sharon: Yeah, they are.    Rosie: Even the pieces we sell, the prices are very reasonable compared to a lot of other dealers. It's like, “What are they thinking when they put that price on there?” If it's a really cool and very rare piece, we will put a higher price on it, but people do buy it. That's why we're still in business after 40 years. They find us when they need us.   Sharon: That's true. They probably need you very often.   Rosie: Yes.   Sharon: If we want to keep on top of what you have, would we look at the website? Would we look at Instagram? Do you not change things?   Rosie: The pieces online are not in the shop. They can be brought in. It's a very small, limited, vetted collection that goes online, but in the shop, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of pieces. Just about anything you would need or want we could probably find for you.   Sharon: There's a limited amount that you find on the website.    Rosie: Right.   Sharon: So, I would call you up and say, “I have a green dress and I need something, What do you think?”   Rosie: Oh boy! In that case, I could shoot you a picture of several things and tell you how much they are. If you're interested, we'll ship them out to you.   Sharon: I wish you had more on the website.   Rosie: It's a lot of work to do a website. My daughter does all that. I would imagine if I ever retired, that's probably how I would get rid of most of my inventory. I'd have to rethink and redo that. But now, if you really want to see what we have, you come into the store.   Sharon: That's good to know.    Rosie: It's interesting though, Sharon, my annual visitors, they come. I'm on their bucket lists. They come once a year. They fill up on their glitz and they're very happy. We have cruise ships coming out of Seattle. They go to Alaska and people come in and say, “My husband's not here. He could care less, but you're on my list when I'm in Seattle.” People will come.   Sharon: It's true. I think you're the only person on our bucket list. If I had a written bucket list, that would be it. Thank you for being here today. We really appreciate it. I hope to get to Seattle soon.   Rosie: Thank you. Thank you so much. I hope to see you in person soon, too.     Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   Why it's harder to find quality vintage and modern costume jewelry today than in years past How Rosie secured a spot as an appraiser on Antiques Roadshow  What Rosie looks for in the pieces she collects, wears and sells in her shop Where the term “costume jewelry” came from and its history Why Rosie is one of the only people in America who will repair costume jewelry   About Rosie Sayyah Rosie Sayyah has been selling and repairing vintage and estate jewelry from her shop, Rhinestone Rosie, in Seattle since 1984. In the early 1980s, Rosie felt her family tradition of dealing in antiques calling to her. Upon leaving her corporate career in television, she decided to open a jewelry store that not only had unique, exciting items for sale, but also where she could restore greatness to jewelry that had fallen into disrepair. Teaching herself about vintage costume and estate jewelry culture and repair through books, hobby shops, and hands-on experience, Rosie has become a national expert in the field. In the late 1990s, she began appearing regularly on “Antiques Roadshow” on PBS TV and continues today as one of their expert appraisers.   Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional resources: Website Instagram Facebook Twitter Transcript: Rosalie Sayyah, aka Rhinestone Rosie, first got jewelry lovers' attention as an appraiser on Antiques Roadshow. But she has earned her customers' loyalty for her ability to repair vintage costume jewelry and perfectly match missing rhinestones when no one else can. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why so few jewelers will repair costume jewelry; what she looks for in the pieces she buys; and how to start a costume jewelry collection of your own. Read the episode transcript here.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   Today, I'm talking with Rhinestone Rosie. You may already be familiar with Rosie. She has her own retail outlet in Seattle, and she does a strong mail order business. You may be familiar with her by seeing her on Antiques Roadshow giving the price of vintage jewelry to people who want to know.    All I know is that whenever I have a piece and I can't find the stone that's the right size, or I know it would be impossible to find the right kind, the color of the stone, or I know it's out of production—maybe it's a really old piece—I turn to her. She hasn't let me down yet. Many of her stones are out of stock elsewhere, but somehow she manages to find them. We'll hear all about her business today. Welcome to the program.   Rosie: Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. I love to talk about jewelry.   Sharon: I'm so glad you're here. How did you choose the name Rhinestone Rosie?   Rosie: It was kind of a joke. I was an English minor in college, and alliteration is something that's very memorable. I was dealing with my sister over the mail. She was sending me pieces and I would sell them. Just as a joke, I signed a check Rhinestone Rosie and it stuck.    Sharon: So, from the get-go, from day one, the name of your business was Rhinestone Rosie.   Rosie: That's right. That's correct.   Sharon: Does Rhinestone Rosie refer to any kind of costume jewelry stones or just rhinestones?   Rosie: Oh no, we deal with all kinds of jewelry. Beads and metals and pearls, all materials, and actually all ages. We do a lot of repairs. In our shop, our inventory goes from, I would say, the 1870s through present day.   Sharon: I know you have some pretty old vintage pieces, but I don't know how old the antique line goes. A hundred years?   Rosie: Exactly.   Sharon: When did you first become attracted to rhinestones?   Rosie: It's hard to say. My parents had a secondhand business, and they repaired things and sold them. This was in Orlando, Florida. I helped my mom reupholster furniture, and sometimes in the old furniture, we would find a piece of jewelry and she would give it to me. It wasn't always rhinestones. I collected rocks when I was a kid, and they always had cut glass in the store. They had a secondhand store, and I just loved that cut glass. I've always liked shiny things, so that must have been what led me to this.   Sharon: And that includes all the shiny costume jewelry.   Rosie: Exactly, yes. And I like to work with my hands. I've been doing that since I was a little girl. So, working with things, that was just a natural offshoot.   Sharon: How did you get into the repair aspect of it? From your parents?   Rosie: No, actually after I had my baby, Lucia, I had a friend who had a vintage store in Seattle, and I would help her. I would bring home clothing and patterns and do mending on clothes, and she always had broken jewelry. I asked her one day, “Do you ever fix this?” She goes, “Oh, nobody really does. I do it once in a while.” So, I did some research and found out that nobody really repaired this jewelry. I thought, “Hmm, this is something I can do,” and I went to the local hobby shop, the guys that did model cars and model airplanes. They told me what lead solders to use, what glues to use, what paints to use. They were very helpful. They told me all kinds of stuff. I'm self-taught, so there it is. I bought a bunch of books and read the books. I learned how to knot in between beads and practiced through trial and error. I had to go through a lot of stuff.   Sharon: But you did this all yourself. As you were saying, there aren't that many other places that do it.   Rosie: No, I don't think there's a full business anywhere that does it. A lot of dealers will do some of their own. A lot of my contemporaries who did similar things have all either passed on or decided to go a different route. I think I've got a monopoly on it.   Sharon: I don't know anybody else who does it or has a store like yours, but I didn't want to say it without knowing for sure.   Rosie: I think you're right.   Sharon: That's why I'm surprised you're not in New York.   Rosie: Oh, no, we left Florida in 1973. We got as far across the country as we could. We wanted a big city, which Seattle is, and water and a temperate climate. We ended up settling here.    Sharon: It sounds like you made the right choice, but in terms of jewelry and being surrounded by jewelry, I think of New York first, Chicago maybe.   Rosie: I know. A lot of my contemporaries on the Road Show are from back East. I am an anomaly for sure, but it is what it is. That's what I do and I do it well, if I might say.   Sharon: I know in my jewelry cabinet, I have a pile of things and say, “Oh, that should go to Rhinestone Rosie's because I know she can fix it. There's nobody else that does that.” Until I found you, there were pieces I would toss or, like you're saying, give away or just say, “I can't do anything with it.”   Rosie: Exactly, I remember. You did come into my shop. It was a pleasure to meet you in person one time. We did close for about three months during the pandemic. Now we're only open three days a week in the brick-and-mortar store, although our online is still going on. I have people coming in almost daily with their pile of stuff that's been saved for two or three years. They're finally in the shop to get fixed.   Sharon: That's interesting. I noticed that you're only open a few days a week, which seemed to be fewer than before.   Rosie: Yes.   Sharon: What percentage of your business is mail order?   Rosie: I would say mail order and repair—because we do local repair. Of course, people walk in, and then people mail us things from all over the world. I think it's about a 50/50 split, for online sales and for walk-in sales and repair.   Sharon: Wow! I have a friend who was a little hesitant about sending something that was precious to them. It wasn't a precious item, but it was precious to them. I did it. I didn't have any compunction. She did it, too. Where do you source the stuff you have, your vintage pieces? Where do you get them?   Rosie: People just bring it into the store. Sometimes, I'll go to a yard sale or something and pick a piece, but mostly it's people that are downsizing or someone just passed. The family has chosen the pieces they want. Sometimes there's even a note in the collection, “Take this to Rhinestone Rosie.” It's kept me going, and I don't have to go out and beat the bushes.   Sharon: That's great. Have you found it's harder to get things in or harder to find things because costume jewelry—   Rosie: Oh yeah, the good stuff. I know there were a lot of manufacturers at the time, but I'd say the high-end pieces are in collectors' hands, and they go from one collector to another collector. They're not normally available in the market. Every once in a while, you will see that someone found something in a box of junk or something. What was so fun on the Road Show is uncovering something like that, but most of the time, it's hard. It's hard to find the good stuff, so you've got to change your focus. Right now, it's more modernist and clean lines, big, chunky necklaces. It's different than it was in, say, the 20s, 30s and 40s. Some people change.   Sharon: Do you think that costume jewelry has become more popular over the years or right now?   Rosie: People need to learn about the vintage pieces because there are lots of ones like dress clips or fur clips. They have a different way of attaching to the fabric, shall we say, but today a lot of stuff is coming out of China and Korea. There are very, very good contemporary artists making costume jewelry.   Sharon: With eBay and all the online sources, do you think it's harder to find? People know what they have, let's say.   Rosie: I don't think they know what they have, but I think there's a lot of the lower-end stuff. You could buy costume jewelry in a dime store. You could buy it in a pharmacy. You could buy it in a department store. You could buy it at a jewelry story. Jewelry stores and department stores usually sold the best quality. A lot of people bought the lower-end pieces because they were cheap, 10¢, 25¢, sometimes $1. I've seen more of that and less of the higher-end pieces.   Sharon: The audience can't see this, but maybe you'll send a picture. You have a beautiful Juliana necklace on. Do you think people know if they have a piece of jewelry on, I shouldn't bring that to you, I should try and sell it elsewhere?   Rosie: It's funny because they say, “I didn't think you wanted that big, ugly stuff. It's too gaudy,” and I'm like, “I want that. I want big, bold and ugly.” This is what people don't understand, especially in the plastics. It's very hard to find good Bakelite and celluloid and other plastics these days because people just toss them. But if they have something like the necklace I have on, I think it would give them pause, and they would bring something like that to me and I would be glad.   Sharon: As the market changes, like you mentioned, if it's cleaner lines or contemporary, do you change with it?   Rosie: Oh sure. Part of my job, Sharon, is educating people on what they have, how to wear it, where it came from, when it was made, what the materials are. I'll have someone come in. Let's say they're going to a wedding and they want a pair of earrings, and they think rhinestones can only be that clear, diamond-looking thing. When they walk in the shop, they realize it can be red, green, blue, purple with an iridescent coating like the necklace I have on, and they go out with a green pair of earrings instead of the clear ones. My job is not only educating people on what they have, but how to wear it, how to take care of it and, yes, it can be fixed. Don't let your high-end jeweler tell you that it can't be fixed. Just keep looking and you'll find me.   Sharon: That's really true. I have found that a lot of high-end jewelers tell me they can't do anything, and somebody who's more an engineering type feels they can do something with it. They can fix it.   Rosie: Exactly, yeah. I spend a lot of time re-repairing things that someone else did. “My father soldered it or my husband,” or “I used this kind of glue.” A lot of our repairs are removing the glue and old solder and getting it down to a basic where I can rebuild it back.   Sharon: Is it you or does somebody else work with you on repairs?   Rosie: Me and my daughter, we both do it in the shop. We don't send it out. We don't work with gold, and we don't do silver solder. We do lead solder. But yeah, these hands, that's what they do.   Sharon: Did you approach Antiques Roadshow or did they find you?   Rosie: It's funny. In 1997, they did the first launch of the program, and Seattle was one of the test cities. Some of my mentors who do fine antique jewelry said, “Rosie, you should have been there. We had so much costume jewelry come in and we didn't know what to tell people.” Long story short, my background is in television. I used to be a producer. I made commercials, and I knew the producer was the one to call.    So, I called WGBH, a guy named Peter, and I said, “Hey, my name is Rhinestone Rosie,” and there was a beat. I said, “I'm not a stripper. I can walk and talk at the same time. I'm fairly presentable on camera and I know about costume jewelry.” He said, “Yes, we would love to have you.” So, in 1998 in Portland, Oregon, it was my first show. I don't think I taped. I was a little bit afraid. I've always been behind the camera, not in front of the camera, but I got over that pretty quick. Yeah, I did call him up and I said, “You need me.” I did it for 20 years.   Sharon: That's sort of connected to this question. I didn't know how to phrase it, but it seems to me that a lot of stylists would come in and say, “I'm doing a 40s show. What do I need?” Does that ever happen, that you have a stylist come in?   Rosie: It happened a lot more before the pandemic. Whether things changed in that industry, I don't know, but yes, we had a lot of stylists or a magazine shoot. If they were doing a shoot, they would come in and pick out pieces. We used to rent our pieces, but we don't do that anymore because people just wouldn't return them. But yes, we get stylists. We would get theater seamstresses, the designers, the costume makers for theaters. We didn't get a lot of movie people in, but maybe this'll help. We can help them if they need us.   Sharon: Is it hard to decide what color or what kind of jewelry somebody should have?    Rosie: What I do is ask them about their lifestyle and what they want the piece for. I look at them. I see how they're dressed, how their hair is cut, and I can pretty well sus out if they're an edgy person or they're a modest person, kind of timid. We have tiny, little earrings, big, bold, down-to-the-shoulder dusters, and you can usually tell by talking to someone. Someone who's got nose piercings and whole-body tattoos, they're not going to go for something real mild.    You can pick up on their body language. That's helped me a lot, plus I encourage people to bring in outfits and put them on. It's like the Barbie doll thing, just dress them and put jewelry on. They can try it on, and if the necklace is too short, we can adjust things. We can change earrings. Most of our earrings are clip-on or screw-back. We can change them to pierced if they want. We do that with our jewelry, or we can do it with your jewelry.   Sharon: What's your return policy if they decide they want to take it home and try it?   Rosie: They get a store credit.   Sharon: A few of the pieces don't work. Maybe it's your daughter who told me that something wouldn't work. I can't even tell the stone apart from the original stones. How do you decide that? How do you decide if it's going to work? Can you tell us about some of the pieces that haven't worked, where you've had to come back to somebody and say, “I can't find anything”?   Rosie: Some of the older stones, I would say pre-1910 to the late 1800s, a lot of those stones, I can't find. I've taken stones out of pieces. I try very hard. If the piece comes in and the stone I'm matching is slightly discolored, I'm not going to put a brand new, shiny stone in its place. I will try to find in my pile of stones one that is slightly discolored. I try very hard to match it.   But, yeah, there are times when we just can't fix a clasp or it's in a place that's too thick for us to solder or the thread is so weak and the restringing cost is prohibitive. We do understand sentimental value. We try to let people know that we appreciate what they have and we understand. It doesn't matter to us if it cost 25¢. If it's important to you, it's important to us. So, if we honestly can't fix it, we tell them, “No, we can't fix it. We can't help you.”   Sharon: How did you get your inventory? You have quite an inventory of stones that you can put in pieces.   Rosie: 40 years. I do have a source for new stones. Sometimes I'll even go to Etsy and try to find something, but I've taken a lot of stones out of pieces. There have also been people through the years—like there was a lady who made earrings that sold in Nordstrom. Her name was Nellie, and she called me up and said, “I'm going out of business. Would you consider buying some of my stones?” That kind of thing. Jewelry stores have back inventory. When they close, I love to go in and dig around in their storerooms.   But I can't buy stones that are unfoiled. I don't do a lot of that because if you glue an unfoiled stone in, the foil is what makes a rhinestone shine. It's like a little mirror. So, if it has no foil on it, I can't really use it. A lot of stones out there have no foil backing, and I can't use those. But most of time, it's just here and there. People hear about me, or they have a hobby or they know somebody who's fixed their own jewelry and they're wanting to sell. I'll look and see what they have, and I'll pick and choose what I might use.   Sharon: Did you have any reservations about opening this kind of store in Seattle?   Rosie: No. I had it all over the kitchen table, and my husband said, “Hey, you'd better start a business because this has taken over our house.” I had no idea how to do it, but all I needed was the license. I shared space. Actually, right next door to where my shop is now, I was in the front of her store. I just had a desk and some jewelry behind me.    Now, this is a really good story. Again, my background is television, but I also have a degree in advertising and public relations. So, I printed up business cards and marched into I. Magnin and Frederick & Nelson and the major boutiques in downtown Seattle. I said, “This is what I do. I can help you,” and I walked out of every place with something to repair. That gave me street cred, so I could say, “I repair jewelry for I. Magnin or Nordstrom.”    I've never been afraid of talking about my abilities to do what we do and that we do it well, and I've always been true and honest and open to my customers. I learned that from my parents. That's how they ran their business. I started with very little cash. I didn't get any loans. It was a bootstrap business, and it's grown to what it is. I'm very proud of it.   Sharon: As I was putting these questions together, I kept asking myself, “What are you doing in Seattle?”   Rosie: Why in Seattle? I just ended up where I was.    Sharon: It's a nice place, but I wouldn't think of it as the first place I'd open anything.   Rosie: We're busy enough. There's a lot of money in Seattle and there are a lot of people. They might dress in Gore-Tex or flannel or whatever, but they like a little bit of bling. The thing is it belonged to grandma or Aunt Masie or somebody, so it's sentimental. It's not always something they're going to wear all the time. I don't wear jewelry all the time, but it's something you look at and hold and treasure. I wanted to preserve that for people.   Sharon: You don't wear jewelry all the time. That's interesting. I don't have jewelry on today. A lot of times I realize I don't have any jewelry on. People used to say, “Well, you're the kind of person who wouldn't go out without earrings.” Do you stop and put on a vintage piece?   Rosie: Well, I'm not an earring girl. I wear rings, watches, necklaces and brooches. Usually, I only wear them when I'm in the shop or if I'm giving a talk, a lecture. I do a lot of lecturing for groups about the history and culture of rhinestones. Sometimes I'll even dress totally vintage, the shoes, the hat, the dress, the jewelry, usually from the 40s. That's what my era seems to be. This is a 50s, 60s necklace I have on. Of course, when I did the Roadshow, I always wore jewelry and people loved it. I would get so many emails, “I love your jewelry. That's cool.”    Sharon: I always say something. If he's watching the show, “Oh, it's Rhinestone Rosie.” I can see why the jewelry gets attention.   Rosie: Oh, yeah.   Sharon: Do you collect anything?    Rosie: I didn't start as a collector. I started as a merchant, so my collection is just based on what I learned about. Since I did so much lecturing, I liked to have a piece of almost every major name that I could show to people. I do have that type of a collection. For some reason, I collect vintage watches. I have maybe 50 watches. It's insane.    As far as jewelry, I think my whole collection is very modest because I purge occasionally. I find if I'm not wearing it, I will take it to the shop. We'll sell it, and people get excited when they find out it is something I have worn and loved. I don't mind doing it. I'm not afraid to separate myself from some major pieces. Right now, I'm more into the clean, modernist lines, a lot of metals. Mexican 40s jewelry I really like to wear. Usually my clothes are very simple, one color, and then the jewelry is the standout part of it.   Sharon: Do you think that older Mexican jewelry is included in modernist?   Rosie: In what?   Sharon: In modernist?    Rosie: Oh yes, they were influenced by it greatly. In the 40s and 50s, some of that jewelry is –   Sharon: It is beautiful.   Rosie: Yeah, I would say it's definitely influenced by a modernist approach, yes. It shows in the Pre-Columbian and the Spanish people that came over, but that's what makes it intriguing. Look at Georg Jensen. You can have that flow, that feel in the 40s Mexican pieces. I have seen new designers make pieces that take my breath away. They're crazy, like things that wrap around your neck and stand out, nothing I could possibly wear, but I certainly appreciate.    I don't know what we would call today's costume jewelry. This term came about because Coco Chanel, Elsa Schiaparelli, they made costumes. Their clothing was costume, and they said, “It needs something.” So, the jewelry that went with it, the term costume jewelry came from that happening.   Sharon: That's interesting. What if they had made it out of real pearls and real gold?   Rosie: Chanel combined both. She wasn't afraid to wear costume and fine jewelry at the same time. As matter of fact, the word rhinestone—the best costume or stones came out of Europe, near the Rhine River. The first piece of rhinestone was a water-washed piece of crystal that came from the Rhine River. So, the name rhinestone has become ubiquitous, like Kleenex or anything like that. It is actually from a piece of crystal from the Rhine River, because the best stuff still does come out of Europe.   Sharon: That's interesting.   Rosie: They make the very best. Certain brands or names in costume jewelry use these incredible stones. You just can't find them anymore. They don't make them anymore.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Kentshire's partnership with Ulla Johnson came about and what they hope will come of it Why Matthew doesn't want his clients to keep their fine jewelry in a safe deposit box Why “Do I love it?” is the first question Matthew asks when looking at jewelry, and why things like designer or carats may not be as important as you think How Covid changed the vintage jewelry market How dealers work together to source the best jewelry for their clients About Matthew Imberman Matthew Imberman, along with his sister Carrie, are the co-presidents of Kentshire Galleries. Established in 1940 and spanning three generations of family ownership, Kentshire Galleries is one of the foremost dealers of fine period and estate jewelry. In 1988, Kentshire established a free-standing boutique in New York's premier luxury store, Bergdorf Goodman. Their antique and estate jewelry department continues to occupy a select location on the store's seventh floor. As the third generation of the family to lead Kentshire, Matthew and Carrie continue to refine the gallery's founding vision: buying and selling outstanding jewelry and objects of enduring design and elegance. Additional resources: Website Facebook Twitter Instagram Pinterest Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Through a partnership with fashion designer Ulla Johnson, Kentshire Fine Jewelry will have a permanent presence on the West Coast for the first time. While other dealers might change their approach to appeal to a new market, co-president Matthew Imberman continues to buy jewelry based on one criterium: whether he loves the piece or not. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history behind the collaboration with Ulla Johnson; why following trends isn't the best way to buy jewelry; and how Covid changed his business in surprising ways. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Matthew Imberman, who, along with his sister, Carrie, is Co-President of Kentshire Fine Jewelry. Welcome back. And that's what you look for in the jewelry you're purchasing, whether it's Bergdorf— Matthew: Absolutely. Look, it's not to say there aren't some things that excite that are unusual or might be something we've had before, but we still love them. There are certain archetypes of jewelry, like a great French tank bracelet. Those are out there, but there are great ones and then there are O.K. ones. I think we're always looking to find one of the best or better versions of what we can find in the category. Are we going to say that every single item we get is unique? No, that's not the case. These things were made in stereo even in their lifetimes, so we're looking for the best examples, in the best condition and the best materials for those kinds of items. Sharon: Do people bring you jewelry and say, “My mother died, and I want to sell this”? Matthew: Yes, we certainly get that, or “This was in my safe deposit box.” Certainly, it's part of it, which is a good part of it. There are times when we are able to source good pieces from our clients. I think it depends, because we deal in nostalgia and people who come to us with pieces that were left to them by family members. There's a nostalgia link, and there can sometimes be a bit of telephone between what they were told. Let's use, for example, if they say, “My grandmother left this to me, and my grandmother told me that this is where she got it. This is what it was.” The stories sometimes change over time, not from any evil intentions, but just because people didn't save receipts or they don't know exactly what it is. So, somebody will come up and say, “Oh, I have this piece. It's just like what I saw in your store, and my grandmother left it to me. I want to bring it in.” They'll bring it in, and when you hold what they brought and what we're selling next to it, they're very, very, very distant cousins. It's not that theirs is inherently bad, but it's not exactly the same thing. But people tend to look at items through a nostalgic viewpoint. So, they say, “Oh, I was left this,” “My grandmother told me this diamond ring is worth X amount.” It puts us in the awkward position of saying, “Well, it's a lovely thing, but it's not exactly what you were told it was.” Those are some of the stories, but by and large, we're given the opportunity to see wonderful collections from our clients. We're fortunate enough to have them be loyal, if they have more pieces, and to come back to us. We don't frequently buy from the public, but it's not something we never do. Sharon: Where do you source a lot of your things from? Do you ask? Do you source it from abroad or whoever walks in the door? Matthew: We mostly work with a small group of dealers like ourselves. They're people who have been in the trade a long time. Trust is still a big part of our business. We have to know each other. We're dealing in valuable items, things where trust is important and you want to know who you're buying from. I think that's the case in any business for the most part. But we mostly buy from dealers like ourselves who are in this world. Whether or not they're retailing, they're dealing with other jewelers to sell pieces they understand so they can place them. For instance, I might have a client for a piece and one of my colleagues in England I know might have a version of what I need and I can call them up. In that way, it allows me to have a greater reach than just my inventory. The colleagues are not competition in the sense that we need each other to stay in business. It's a small group of goods that we all admire and we all like to buy and sell, but we also have to do that with each other so we can have the inventory we need to service our clients. One of my colleagues in France can have something if they need it. So, it's really an old-world business that way. Then auctions are really hyper-retail, at the end of the day, for a lot of pieces. I think they've done a great job of convincing people that there's a steal to be had, but when you look at the prices and how they land, if you're buying a bracelet, it's going to end up for around the same price, if not more, than what you'll pay in my store or one of my colleague's stores. But it comes with a three-inch-thick binder about why, if something's wrong with it, it's not their fault and how they don't offer any post-sale service and yada, yada, yada. We all deal with the auction houses to a certain extent out of necessity, but we're not very bullish on them, and I think for pretty understandable reasons. Every once in a while, we look at estate sales. People who buy estates are buying the entire thing, and we're cherry pickers. We're looking for the three or four really interesting items, and to do that, you usually have to buy the entire estate. So, we rarely do that, given that we're working with a specific and small group of goods. Sharon: Have you always been involved? You had a career before this, right? Matthew: At this point, I've been in the business for about 22 years, I think, if I'm doing the math right. Not always on the jewelry side, although always around it. Like I said, we also had a large business in antique furniture, English and continental furniture and decorative arts at the same time we had jewelry. I was originally on that side of the business. Before that, I did a master's in art history, so I was gone for a while. That was part of what made sense in terms of coming in the business, but also in terms of lending itself to jewelry. The specific studies we did, it was in decorative arts. You're covering a lot of the different motifs and the techniques that were also happening in jewelry at the time. So, that planted the seed. I spent some time in contemporary art before that, working at the Met on their website, but that's ages ago now. Sharon: In the past few years, you mentioned people being less formal. Out here we're so casual. Here you can wear nice jewelry, but a pair of shorts and a T-shirt. Have you seen a change in the kinds of things people buy? What are the trends you see? Matthew: I think it's challenging sometimes for people like us, who aren't dealing in manufactured goods, to look at the trends and to understand if these are actually sales-driven trends or things that are catching an eye on social media. Instagram will load your feed with them, but does that translate to what is actually being bought and sold meaningfully? It's interesting when I see little trends pop up on Instagram and people start running with them. Whether it's a designer or a type of good or it's the newest thing, they're talking about vintage jewelry. They're talking about something that people have been buying and selling for decades, if not centuries at this point. It's always the phase of, who is deciding which trend is in? For us, we're trend agnostic. I don't buy something with the idea of “This is going to be the next big thing,” or “Everyone right now is focused on this.” There's been a moment of people buying Georges L'Enfant jewelry, but people have been buying Georges L'Enfant jewelry for a long time in America without knowing necessarily who the maker was. They're just now catching up on, “Oh, that was a maker who was making for Hermès, VanCleef, Cartier, and who in their own right was an incredible designer who was making pieces for bigger houses.” They may know the bigger houses without knowing the maker. That can raise the price of L'Enfant overall, but for us, it's not going to change specifically how we buy because we have to find a piece. If I walk out tomorrow and see three L'Enfant pieces, and those three L'Enfant pieces don't belong in a collection, it doesn't matter that they're buying L'Enfant. It doesn't matter that that may be trendy. If I don't think they belong in a collection, then they don't belong in the collection. My sister has extremely rigorous standards, and I do too, so we buy the best examples of what we like. People say that all the time. They say, “What do you buy?” and we think “We buy what we like.” We wish we could explain it better, but it's just how we are. Every couple of years, people will launch an article and say, “Oh, the brooch is back,” and I think, “That's a bit lazy. The brooches never got away.” Some people will feel less comfortable wearing them, some people will feel more comfortable, or people might say, “Oh, it's old-fashioned,” and this or that. But for dealers, we all buy and sell brooches. It doesn't change my feeling. If I see a beautiful one, a beautiful pin, we want to buy it. If my sister sees a beautiful 18th-century brooch and she thinks it's great, she's not going to say, “Huh, well, brooches don't sell.” Is it the right brooch? Does it represent something we think our clients should own? One of my friends who's out on the West Coast said, “Oh, so you're going to bring a lot of astrology signs,” and I said, “If we have nice ones, absolutely.” I understood what they were saying. There certainly is a great market on the West Coast if you have a wonderful Cartier zodiac collection, for sure. We're not going to buy that because they could do well out there. That's not who we are. If we see one that's particularly interesting and has a great weight and represents an acceptable value given how those have crept up in price over the years, yes. But just because we're there, we're not going to be doing that, if that makes sense. Sharon: If somebody brings you a pair of earrings that don't fit with what people are going to wear today, but in your opinion they're well-made and well-priced, would you be interested? Matthew: Absolutely, because we don't approach it through other people telling us what people won't wear today. We have clients in a lot of different areas of the world, different ages, different price points for what they're buying. We can just look at it and say, “You know what? We think this is a good looker.” If there are 10 articles tomorrow by somebody in the know saying, “No one is wearing this kind of earring anymore,” that's not going to affect our thinking because we're not buying pieces retroactive to what trends are happening. We're buying what we like, and we like to think that anyone, whether they're trend-driven or not, can come and see our collection and find something that might speak to them. Sharon: Have you seen a decrease in the age of people who come in and can't find anything because maybe they're looking for something that isn't jewelry? Matthew: I think for us, the understandable barrier to entry is always going to be price, withholding our costume collection, in which you can find pieces that are in the hundreds of dollars range. Fine jewelry in our collection by and large starts at $3,000-ish and creeps upwards to millions of dollars. We understand that not everyone puts the same value on jewelry as we do. So, for some people coming in, if they're looking to buy a piece of jewelry, they might have a totally different price point in mind than what our collection is, and that we certainly understand. We've always tried to have a range of prices. Part of the challenge, though, is because we deal in pieces that are made up of commodities, gold, diamond, things like that, and those commodities have prices that fluctuate. As gold has gotten very strong, the price for us to buy good gold jewelry has gone up because the gold is more valuable, so the price for our clients is more expensive. That's also a good insurer for them, in that if you own gold jewelry, the value has continued to grow as the price of gold goes up. We don't really buy that way. There are some dealers who will buy very specifically based on what the piece weighs if they have to scrap it and what the value of gold is today. We're not buying pieces that we hope anyone would melt down at any point, especially when you're looking at antique pieces. The amount of gold in an antique piece, because of the way they were constructed for the most part, they're not going to be particularly heavy in terms of how much gold is going to come out of them. So, the value isn't in the actual materials there. I think it just represents something a little bit different. Certainly, on Instagram we get more information about what our younger clients are looking for. Everyone sees value in different places. How they want to spend it changes, and how we're able to conduct the business in terms of skewing towards younger clients changes, but we've been encouraged to see our client base on Instagram start to fall in line toward what we see in the store. It really represents the spread of ages. Sharon: There's all this talk about younger people. I'm not talking about 18-year-olds or younger. Everybody in the world is younger than I am, but you hear about younger people not wanting to buy jewelry. They don't buy as much jewelry even though they could afford it. They just don't buy as much. Matthew: I will say that our main client was never a “young” client simply because of the prices we're talking about for most people. Even if they didn't want these things or maybe were saving for a house, I think what's different is if you look at the advent of how handbags have become such a status symbol, the prices of handbags are commensurate, if not much greater than a lot of fine jewelry. That creates a really interesting secondary market for handbag resale. I think the story people got in the pandemic was everyone saying, “Oh, they just want experiences,” but we're talking about a time period when everyone was fetishizing experiences because we were all locked inside and couldn't do anything. We had robust sales, surprisingly, during Covid, and when we were coming out of Covid, too. We had a steady increase in new clients because I think people were excited to be out again, excited to be wearing something, excited to not just be dressed for a Zoom meeting. I think jewelry plays a part in that story most remarkably. It's wearing your sculpture around and drawing attention to yourself in what we'd like to think is a unique way, hopefully wearing something that not everyone else has. Sharon: You answered the next question before I asked it, which is did you see a change? I heard from jewelers that they were seeing an increase during Covid because people weren't going to fundraisers or whatever, but they were spending their money. Matthew: It's interesting I answered something where there is sort of a long family story. I have a meandering way to answer any question, I know, but I'm glad I had one at least. Did we speak during Covid or right before when we had our first interview? I can't remember, but I do remember thinking when Covid hit, “We had a really good Christmas. If we don't sell another piece of jewelry for a year or so, we'll be fine. We'll just batten down the hatches,” but like anything else, people still wanted to collect. People wanted to look at something new, boost their spirits, what have you. People weren't going to fundraising dinners or vacations, so this was something where they said, “Normally I would spend X amount eating out, but now it turns out I've saved all this money not eating out. I can afford a beautiful bracelet.” We were surprised that happened. During Covid, the real challenge became finding goods. We could sell things and send them, but it became very challenging to see our colleagues, to find pieces, to do all that. That's where we had to get a lot more clever and targeted for how we acquired things. Coming out of Covid, I think we're all playing catchup, and not just from our business' standpoint. Everyone is. Everyone's calendar has changed a little bit. A lot of our clients who would go out to the Hamptons for the summer but would be here during the year realized that their job is more portable than they thought, or they've changed how they work altogether so they're out of their house a lot more. So, they're shopping on our website now instead of coming into the store. Or, they're out at their houses, which they're fortunate enough to have wherever they are, at other parts of the year, so when summer comes, they're in New York at times and we don't expect them. Weirdly, our summers used to be rather quiet but tolerable at Bergdorf, and we would expect to get some of our bigger administrative projects done. Now we find that people are coming in and tourists are coming in in the summer, when it used to be very slow. We have to change when we take our vacations, when we need to do our projects, how we plan for the fall season, which has come and gone in terms of when the planning has to happen. It keeps us on our toes, but part of what's good about being a small ship is that we're nimble, so we're able to course correct pretty quickly if we have to. We've been in Bergdorf long enough to know the rhythms of the store. What I don't think any of us anticipated was what tourism would be like in New York, especially with the story being what it was elsewhere. We found ourselves really blown away with the reaction of people coming back to the city and how many people were coming through. In my short walk between Rock Center, where we have our offices, and Bergdorf, which our staff will do multiple times a day bringing goods back and forth, it got to a point where you couldn't walk down Fifth Avenue. I'd go to Sixth Avenue and walk down there because it was so busy. It's been interesting to see the resurgence of people visiting the city. We have more people coming to Bergdorf, which leads to more sales. We keep ourselves busy trying to find new pieces. Sharon: That's very interesting. I hadn't thought about that, especially when you say the jobs are more portable. I think I'm the only one who's at home on their couch looking at Instagram. Matthew: I can tell you from behind-the-scenes looks at our Instagram numbers, you're not. Even for us, we have to be in our offices because we work with a physical, tangible good. I couldn't be a person who works from home all the time. I also don't think I would be well-suited to the routine of being in an office. But we need to be in and around the jewelry district to see new pieces as they come in, to run a repair. We physically have to be there, but even in the realm of what we do, we're more flexible. If I need to work on the road or work from home or do something here or there, the technology has made it so we can do that, too. For all our clients, it's the same thing. The social calendar in New York has changed dramatically as some events have changed over and come and gone. What people feel they need to go to, how people are dressing for them, that's changed a bit, too, so it's changed how people buy. Obviously, the holiday season is always a very strong season for people in our world and when we do a lot of business, but we find it's spread out around the year a lot more now as people are not buying for occasion-specific pieces. They're not just saying, “I've got this birthday, this anniversary.” The pace of their lives has changed it. Sharon: That's interesting. You preempted my question. I was going to ask you about changes. Does that impact how you think about Los Angeles or the West Coast, where there are no seasonal changes really? Matthew: In terms of seasonal changes, I have friends who work in different areas, whether they're in a hifalutin financial position or they're consultants at luxury groups, and they come and say, “We want to help with this.” They'll look through and figure out how to optimize or create a strategy. When they spent time with us, they realized, “We do not know how you do what you do.” It doesn't really subscribe to the more traditional models of how somebody might run this kind of business. I understand that if you are Tiffany and you're doing things on the West Coast, you might change how you skew your line sheet for what kinds of pieces people might wear, because that kind of style isn't going to work when somebody is wearing a shift versus a sweater. We are not clever buyers like that. Again, we look at things and think, “This is a great thing. We can see one of our L.A. clients wearing this. Let's send it out there.” So much of what we do is by feel and a kind of very educated guess. It's easier in some ways, the variety of pieces we can send out West because we're not worried about people taking gloves on and off when it's a ring. When you're in the city and you're taking a ring on and off, maybe it could get caught. I don't know how much they're concerned about that in New York now. We tend to think the same way. If you're a collector of vintage cars and you understand you're buying a vintage car, you know it's going to require special handling at times. You can't drive it down every road. You might need to bring it to a different mechanic than where you bring your daily driver. We expect, to a certain extent, that people buying fine vintage jewelry understand the spirit of that too. They're not bringing it to the person at their mall to have it fixed. They're not wearing it in the pool. There are parts of these changes we're happy to walk people through, but whether you're East or West Coast, there's a certain sensibility we think goes with wearing the pieces. Sharon: Do you think people gear up for the holidays? You said you also do during the year, but do you gear up? Matthew: We acquire year round, and we put out a catalogue usually in the fall. That's always a challenge for us in that we love doing it and we spend a lot of time putting it together, but as we finally get to finish the product and it goes in the mail, the pieces have already been available. So, you get this heartbreaking moment when a client calls and says, “I got this catalogue. I'm out in California. What's on page three?” and we say, “I'm so sorry. It's sold.” But it allows you to start the conversation and say, “We can try to find you something you like. Maybe we have something that wasn't in the catalogue that's new, and we can talk you through it.” We have a sense for how people respond, but in terms of the West Coast specifically, I don't know. We're curious to see what that's like. I assume that titans of retail who also make their money on the West Coast around the holidays are doing things somewhat in lockstep with what we're doing on the West Coast. People still celebrate holidays and buy gifts out there. We think it's probably going to be the same way, but again, we don't live or die based on holidays. People come every day and say, “Oh wow! That must be crazy,” and I say, “You know, we're not the right lid for that pot.” Not to say we don't sell things based around that, but we're not specifically holiday-driven dealers. We're not looking to get in a million hard pieces for Valentine's Day and have everyone get something for their sweetie. Our core client is women who are buying jewelry for themselves. It creates a different experience than when you're making a gift purchase. Sharon: That's interesting. Matthew, thank you very much. I hope we all get to come out to Bergdorf and see your stuff. I hope you're not deluged with people coming to your administrative offices. You can direct them to Bergdorf. Thank you very much. I learned a lot today. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Matthew: Thank you for having me. We look forward to seeing you out West soon.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Kentshire's partnership with Ulla Johnson came about and what they hope will come of it Why Matthew doesn't want his clients to keep their fine jewelry in a safe deposit box Why “Do I love it?” is the first question Matthew asks when looking at jewelry, and why things like designer or carats may not be as important as you think How Covid changed the vintage jewelry market How dealers work together to source the best jewelry for their clients About Matthew Imberman Matthew Imberman, along with his sister Carrie, are the co-presidents of Kentshire Galleries. Established in 1940 and spanning three generations of family ownership, Kentshire Galleries is one of the foremost dealers of fine period and estate jewelry. In 1988, Kentshire established a free-standing boutique in New York's premier luxury store, Bergdorf Goodman. Their antique and estate jewelry department continues to occupy a select location on the store's seventh floor. As the third generation of the family to lead Kentshire, Matthew and Carrie continue to refine the gallery's founding vision: buying and selling outstanding jewelry and objects of enduring design and elegance. Additional resources: Website Facebook Twitter Instagram Pinterest Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Through a partnership with fashion designer Ulla Johnson, Kentshire Fine Jewelry will have a permanent presence on the West Coast for the first time. While other dealers might change their approach to appeal to a new market, co-president Matthew Imberman continues to buy jewelry based on one criterium: whether he loves the piece or not. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history behind the collaboration with Ulla Johnson; why following trends isn't the best way to buy jewelry; and how Covid changed his business in surprising ways. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, my guest is Matthew Imberman, who, along with his sister, Carrie, is Co-President of Kentshire Fine Jewelry. At Kentshire, fine jewelry encompasses almost everything that you would categorize as fine jewelry: bridal, engagement rings, signed pieces, retro and even fine costume jewelry. They're the third generation to be involved in jewelry. Their administrative office is on Fifth Avenue in New York, and their retail location is on the seventh floor of Bergdorf Goodman. Matthew is a returning guest who was with us several years ago in the pre-Covid days. Now, I'm excited to hear about his collaboration with the designer Ulla Johnson in their new store in West Hollywood. It's not often that New York jewelers come out this way, so I'm looking forward to hearing all about it. Matthew, welcome to the podcast. Matthew: Thank you for having me. Sharon: I'm so glad you're here. What about the West Coast clientele surprised as you were doing the store? Matthew: We have deep roots on the West Coast despite not having our own Kentshire branded store out there. We've been longtime exhibitors at the San Francisco Fall Show. The show has had some changes through the years, but we've been exhibiting for more than three decades, easily. Because of that, we've tracked with some of the West Coast feeling of our clients. Throughout the years, we've done different shows in L.A. At one point, we did have an agreement where we sold our pieces at Gump's. It's not that we are new to the West Coast, per se, but we have taken a bit of a hiatus. So, we were interested in getting out there and bringing what we have to our clients who are there. But by and large, it's not that we have a different sensibility about what we do for the West Coast versus the East. Kentshire has its viewpoint, which is a simple one. Carrie and I buy things that we think to be interesting, made well, rare. Whether it's from a famous designer or not, something that's not something you see every day and that we think will please a variety of our clients' sensibilities, but primarily it also has to please ours. At the end of the day, we end up looking at the pieces, whether they're with us for just a day or whether they're with us for a few years, so we buy things we like. We think that's a good viewpoint for anyone. So, for our West Coast clients, we are not such nose-in-the-air New Yorkers. We love our West Coast clients. We have family on the West Coast. We've spent a lot of time there, so for us, it wasn't like, “Oh, my god! We have to think through a whole new client type.” It was, “No, we're so excited to bring something we do to clients that, in some cases, do know us because we've been out there or they visit us at Bergdorf, but also clients who we haven't seen and who are friends of friends or know us through Ulla.” So, we touch all bases there. Sharon: I think you mentioned earlier Gump's San Francisco Show. I don't even know if they're still having that show. Matthew: It did take a few years off during Covid. It is happening again. I believe it's the 14th or 15th of October—I'll have to look back on the dates—at the Fort Mason Complex in the Festival Pavilion. I know this year Lauren Santo Domingo from Moda Operandi is attached as one of the social chairs. They have a fantastic gala evening. The show is run by Suzanne Tucker's entertainment team, who is just a consummate professional. What a combination of taste and savvy there. So, we're excited to be there, but we did the show when it was at the Santa Monica Air Hangar in the years back. We've done different shows off and on. It's been harder, I think, for a show to stick there, so to speak, but we also think it's a good fit for us. We've certainly started and stopped a few different shows in L.A., but it's been a long time since we've been in the city proper. I should add, actually—I'm leaving out the most glaringly obvious thing we did there. When Opening Ceremony had their larger line with accessories before the company went through restructuring during Covid, we also had our fine jewelry in Opening Ceremony. That both had a fashion bent and had a lot of store-within-a-store feeling, similar to what we're doing with Ulla. We had a targeted collection that was there in L.A. that represented us on the West Coast. We did that for, oh gosh, at least five years, I think. Sharon: I must have missed that because there's not any fine jewelry, except for maybe the big, commercial jewelers that are out here in Los Angeles. From what I've been told and from what I see, the clientele is very different. Matthew: It's funny. You know more because your boots are on the ground. We have a different feeling, but I'll say even looking at clients reaching out to us through Instagram or our website, we find that certainly the West is very well represented. The information, the data behind it, can sometimes be skewed because we have clients who come into Bergdorf, and they must happen to mention to us, “Oh, I'm visiting from the West Coast.” Maybe we'll get a little more granular detail, but I do know that when we look at the information, which we try stay up on for how people approach us and our work, we certainly feel that the West Coast is no slouch when it comes to looking at jewelry. I think that also shows with some of the dealers out there. Sharon: There's money out here to buy it. Maybe it's because I'm not really wild about the kind of jewelry they tend to wear. Who did you work with in terms of Ulla Johnson? Did they come to you, the designer? Matthew: I wish Carrie were here for a number of reasons. She's my business partner and obviously brings a tremendous wealth of knowledge and experience to the business, but she and Ulla have been longtime friends. I've known Ulla for a very long time, too. Ulla's husband and her family have been close for a long time because my sister and I share a friend group, and she's got some really wonderful friends. They've just had an affinity for each other and known each other, came up through a variety of different jobs together, and have always been very close. Ulla has always had a fantastic eye and really understood antique pieces, understood how a combination of design, manufacturing and color all come together to set some of these pieces apart. Throughout the years, she has grown in her notoriety, which now is incredible to see looking at the store on the West Coast in a picture, which we don't get to see in person until we go out in September. We're going to do a little trunk show, which I'll do a shameless plug for, on the 20th of September. We'll have more info for you as plans come together. Ulla has been a client of ours and borrowed things from us. We've worked together because we're friends, but sometimes friends don't always work well together. In this case, it's been beautiful because she's got such a clear vision of what she designs. It suits our inventory. Again, there's a reason she and her are friends. People tend to share a visual vocabulary. It's been a really good, seamless blend of both being in allied fields, jewelry and fashion obviously marching together to the same step, but also our viewpoints of what matters in terms of how things are designed, how things are proportioned, how colors work together or don't work together, how these things can interplay. We've been fortunate to count Ulla as a client, but much more fortunate to count her as a friend and somebody who inspires what we do when we look at things and address clients. What is she looking at?  How are those things playing together? There's a lovely synergy there. Sharon: Were you involved in picking the jewelry, or was it Carrie and Ulla who picked the jewelry to go in the store? Matthew: I take a much more hands-off approach in terms of that because Carrie and Ulla do not need to hear from me. I'm always happy when my opinion is asked for, but I also understand, and given that Carrie and Ulla are old friends—really, friends are not the same. They're very, very close. My influence is surplus to their needs. They've got it beyond spades, what they need to do, and they play off of each other. Ulla has a very clear vision of what she wants. She'll look at our collection or see things as they pop up on Instagram and get in touch and say, “What about this? What about that?” Similarly, when Carrie and I shop—because, again, we look for clients that we like. We love clients who are buying for themselves with a clear viewpoint, and that is Ulla to a T. So, we'll look at things as we're buying them and say, “This is the kind of thing that is for Ulla or her store or this kind of client.” One can never expect that means if you buy that piece, it sells in that way, but it does pull a spring at times on how we're acquiring certain parts of our collection. Thus far, it's proved pretty accurate. Sharon: I'm surprised. I'm the same as you; I've only seen the pictures of the store. There doesn't seem to be a lot of jewelry, at least from the pictures. Matthew: In the press pictures, it's hard to see. When they did the press pictures and when the store opened are largely different things. Obviously, one has to get the message out ahead of time before they open the doors. In one of the pictures, you can actually physically see the showcases, but I can send subsequent pictures that show you the jewelry displayed in them. There are two lovely floor cases, top-down vitrines that you'd be looking into. We're not looking to have 20 showcases. Given our requirements for how we purchase things and what they need to look like and the requirements we have for how we buy inventory, if we needed a whole new inventory for an entire store of jewelry, it would be extremely difficult. Right now, with the stock we have—not that everything sells immediately, but buying things is challenging because we do have a viewpoint and specific standards. Not to say there aren't a few things here and there that might be more bread and butter or commercial pieces. Even when we're sending things out to Ulla, we're looking for things where it doesn't matter. It's not like, “Oh, we're sending them out to another collection, so it can be different from what we put at Bergdorf.” Everything has pretty strict standards. In Ulla's space, they have two lovely, very interestingly built cases, I have to say. They're things I would never be clever enough to design in a million years, but it's displayed very, very beautifully. It's a very focused collection. We're not talking about 500, 600 pieces. Sharon: So, you do have vitrines and showcases. Matthew: Yes. Sharon: Nothing shows. It looks like you just have a few pieces. Matthew: That's just in the press photos. I understand with these things, there's always pressure to get the press photos out so the major press can be done, and the major message there should be Ulla. We are kind of an inclusion below the fold, but inasmuch as we are there, as they merchandise and get the pieces out there, this is the soft opening, as they say. Every store has to work out some of the kinks when it opens. In this case, it's easier for us given the nature of what we sell and it being valuable things that can't be just mixed in and around the inventory to cover Ulla after the fact. The formal opening is going to be closer into October, when we come out. By then, we'll have better photos of how everything is displayed in the store. People will come here and say, “There's always a new way to do design that somebody hasn't seen.” At the end of the day, it's still jewelry on props. Whatever they are, you still want people to see it and go after it. I think it's a tremendous success, given that they have a wonderful designer they worked with. Ulla herself has such a vision, and we were happy to be in the mix. Sharon: I think it's a really nice idea. It adds a lot to a store because you usually see—I don't mean to disparage it—but costume jewelry or whatever the store is selling. You don't see fine jewelry. How do you keep it secure? Matthew: It's all locked up at night, similar to what we do at Bergdorf. Things are in a locked case. If a client wants to see a piece, they work with a sales associate who will show it to them, and then everything is secured at the end of the day. Any proper jewelry store should be doing that. We're extremely careful and have all our little operations in place. We know their team is a crack team, too, and we will be doing everything to keep it very safe. Sharon: It looks like quite a large store from the pictures. Everything I'm talking about is from the pictures. Matthew: Yeah, but if you think of it this way, we operate in Bergdorf, which is a tremendously huge store and has so much going on. Once you know the order of operations and the sales associates understand the specific rules for showing jewelry, it's fairly straightforward and pretty easy. Nowadays it's different. Everything is very secure. Everyone has cameras in their spaces. We were doing retail for quite a long time before the advent of cameras and different sensors and all these ways of keeping things safe through technology. We feel very confident. Sharon: Do you think it's bigger than most of the stores in that area? That was my impression. Matthew: This is where I have to say I couldn't myself say. I am not an expert on that area of Beverly Boulevard or how the different retailers are size-wise. I know that when we started, it was quite a large store. We felt very comfortable because we're working with partners who we know well, who are leaders in their fields and have people working with them that are excellent. Given that Ulla is quite an accomplished designer and has a sizeable presence in New York already and obviously sells in other outlets and units, I would imagine that her store is commensurate with the level of success she's seen in our store, which is to say appropriate to what she does. Whether bigger or smaller than one of her colleagues, I don't know. Sharon: Do you or Carrie have any input in the design of the store? Matthew: No. Again, this is a lovely partnership and a meeting of minds, but our partnership is—like you said, where some retailers out there might fill their jewelry section with costume jewelry they've licensed out to someone else to design, or maybe they have a third party doing it. I think what Ulla saw in us is the idea that we have a similar viewpoint for how we present what we do. Part of the reason, even when you see on social media—if you look at Ulla on the internet, you see how she's wearing her own designs and her jewelry. It works so well together. Similarly, with the store, our input wasn't needed or even appropriate because it's Ulla's space to let her designs shine. But we know that whatever she does, her pieces are going to look good within the context of that collection. Despite what the store looks like, the main imprint is still, visually, that all of her wonderful clothing designs and our pieces have worked thus far. We obviously have the utmost confidence in both her and her designer to create an environment that would be wonderful for us to show our jewelry. Sharon: I don't know what Bergdorf carries, but do people come to you with one of her designs and say, “What can you recommend to go with this?” Matthew: I could certainly ask my sales staff. At Bergdorf it's not uncommon, whether it's Ulla or other designers, because we work across the store. We have our own specific private salon right on the seventh floor next to the restaurant. It's a little different than the main jewelry shown the ground floor. It's just our material, just our sales staff that works for us specifically, and we serve as an outlet for the rest of the store for what is essentially the antique and estate department at Bergdorf. What happens frequently is, whether it's an associate who is working in Ulla's section or somebody working in Chanel, they'll come and say, “I have a client who's looking at a gown and needs something to wear with it. This is a picture of the gown. What can you recommend?” Then the client would be able to try on the dress or whatever they're looking at with our pieces. If something works for them and they like it, then great; we can help them out that way. Certainly, that's part of it. One of the benefits for us to be in Bergdorf, aside from the fact that obviously it's Bergdorf and it gets a wonderful assortment of people who come to shop at the store, it puts us in the context of what people are wearing. While we have collectors who might specifically collect the pieces and wearing is secondary, by and large, our goal is for people to wear what they buy. We firmly believe things should not sit in the safe deposit box. They interact with the designer's clothing while the client is trying it on with our pieces. That's the best effect overall, I think, for a client looking at how the pieces are represented when they get them home and when they wear them. They look at them with the real eye. Sharon: Is there a decrease in the kind of people who are buying a Chanel piece, let's say, or a Chanel gown, a red carpet look? Matthew: Oh gosh, in terms of a red-carpet look, that's where my knowledge of Bergdorf sell-through would be behind. “I don't know” is the answer, but I can certainly say Chanel is experiencing a slowdown, at least judging by the number of people who shop at the Chanel departments at Bergdorf. Overall, I don't think I'm any genius or original thinker for thinking this. People have become less formal overall, but that hasn't really changed what we do. Yes, we have pieces that might be, to some clients, extremely occasion-specific and one or two pieces that would have to be worn for a red-carpet look, but what we're mostly buying is something that, given somebody's own personal comfort level, they can wear with anything. Whether it's a Deco diamond bracelet or it's a really simple pair of gold earrings, it's not for us to say, “Oh, you can only wear that at a fancy dress occasion,” or “Oh, that's just casual.” We like to think that's where one's own sense of creativity comes into play, because we buy things with the idea they'll be worn. We're not looking to pass on family heirlooms to sit in a box all year long. We really love our clients to experience their goods, wear them, have the confidence to wear them however they're going out. At the end of the day, it's one of those simple, little items that can really change how an outfit looks or how you feel. Sharon: I keep thinking about the jewelry in L.A. The collaboration you have, did that come about because you all were having dinner one night and you said, “Why don't we do this?” What happened? Matthew: In this case, Ulla, in opening her West Coast store—and I'm speaking secondhand because she and my sister initially had the conversations, but Carrie and I do everything together. So, it became a discussion we all had at one point. I think it was something as casual as, “I'm opening up a store on the West Coast. It would be great to have some Kentshire pieces there.” We feel so fortunate to have Ulla as a partner in this, specifically because she's such a good friend and has been so supportive of us when we took over the business. She has been herself one of the more inspiring collectors we have. Looking at the variety of pieces she's purchased that range from very modern to very old to things that are almost costume to things that are extremely fine—everything together, there's such a personal viewpoint about how these pieces come together. I took it as an incredible honor when she said she wanted to include us, because I don't think Ulla necessarily needs us to sell her fashion. She's so capable of creating a look that is beyond what we're able to think about. We're jewelers. We don't think about fashion that way necessarily, although we're certainly around it and we love it. In this case, I think it was a much more casual meeting of the minds where she said, “You know what? We all love each other. Let's work this out.” Then Carrie and Ulla talked about the details and figured out how it would work, and I played a supporting role in doing whatever I could do. Now we're seeing the fruits of that together as the collection is coming out West and people are starting to see it. Sharon: You mentioned some of the—I'll call them baby things you've tried out here, but do you think this is a beginning? Do you intend to do other things and make your brand more known out here? Matthew: Certainly, we would like our brand to be more known out there. In some ways, it's the biggest no-brainer for us, in that we have a lot of clients out on the West Coast, not just specifically the Northeast. We have a lot of clients who've purchased from us over the years. The challenge for us is always that I can't call up the factory and say, “Send me another 300 of those antique bracelets I sold.” We're a piece at a time. So, the challenge is always finding enough material that meets our qualifications so we can service all our clients. I think what we're hoping to see happen, all of us, is that this becomes successful, and we continue to grow our presence with Ulla and create a bigger collection for her there, which allows us to run similarly to how we run in New York. It's a comfortable setting for us, being in a fashion space and having clients coming in we know are already in the mindset of looking at jewelry and clothing together. I don't know if we necessarily have the appetite to open our own store out West, all things being equal, simply because it's more than a full-time job between Bergdorf and the website. So, for us having a partner like Ulla who can handle the day-to-day operations—and her team is so wonderful. To be able to do that is invaluable to us. We'll be doing trunk shows out there where we come and meet people at Ulla's store and introduce them to her brand and our brand, absolutely. That's something that will be starting in September on the 20th in the afternoon there. Then we'll continue as it goes and as we all find a good rhythm for how that works. Sharon: So, she did buy high-end. She bought what I call regular pieces that you wear every day and really high-end, over-the-top, red-carpet stuff. Matthew: We don't deal in things that we think are over the top simply because we're not looking to sell such specific pieces that way. It's not to say we never have, but it's by and large not a focus of our collection. I think what is incredible about Ulla's eye is she's looking specifically for what she likes. She's not looking at the of-the-moment piece or asking, “What do I see happening in the next year?” and it shows with her clothing. Ulla has this specific viewpoint. She'll see something in our collection and the first qualification isn't, “Oh, does it cost a lot or a little?” or “Is it by this designer?” It's, “Do I like it?” It's the simplest question, “Do I like it?” I think that nowadays, it's easy to get misled, even in the vintage jewelry world, with what's the hot thing now or who's the hot maker. At the end of day, for us, the most important consideration is, “Do you love it?” I know it sounds pedantic to say that, but I think it's easy sometimes to have the other parts of the piece drive it. Somebody will say, “Oh, who is it?” first or they'll say, “How much is it?” or “What's the size of the stone?” or what have you. This can all be important. I'm not saying they're not, but I think we're a good match for Ulla because we all approach the concept first of, “Do we love this? Does this excite us?” And then, “Why does it excite us?” Then, as you start to uncover the parts of what the piece is, if it's by somebody, if it's from a certain place, if it's from a certain time period, if it's got a rare stone, then those add to the excitement. But it has to be something inherently beautiful and unusual. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode:   Why even jewelry novices can learn to make silver jewelry at home with affordable tools How Machi and her co-author Janet turned their in-person jewelry making classes into a book What safety concerns to consider when making DIY jewelry How working with silver compares to working with other metals, and where beginner makers should start What mistakes beginner makers commonly make and how to fix them    About Machi de Waard Machi de Waard is a designer-jeweller and jewellery tutor. Jewellery has been her full-time pursuit since early 2007, and Machi's work has been shown at galleries, fairs and exhibitions. Machi combines her studio practice with teaching, having taught jewellery making for over ten years in various locations throughout the UK. Her interests in modern art, particularly in sculpture and minimalism, influence her work.   Additional Resources: -www.machidewaard.co.uk  -insta: @machi_jewellery  -www.janetrichardson.co.uk  -insta: @janrichardsonjewellery Book links: Amazon UK Waterstones Blackwells Search Press Guardian Bookstore Amazon USA Penguin Random House Bol.com in the Netherlands Amazon Germany   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney,com   Transcript:   Working with metal might seem like something best left to the pros, but Machi de Waard's new book smashes that misconception. Written with Machi's friend and co-author Janet Richardson, “Silver Jewelry Making: A Complete Step-By-Step Course,” includes seven projects that help beginner makers build on their skills and make real jewelry at home with simple tools. Machi joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the serendipitous way the book got published; why silver is the best metal for beginners to start with; and which common mistakes DIY makers should watch out for. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone, welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    Today, my guest is Machi de Waard. She, along with Janet Richardson, is the coauthor of the book “Silver Jewelry Making.” They are both jewelers and teachers in Great Britain, and that's where she's speaking to me from. Welcome back.    That's what I wanted to ask you. Do people say to you, “Why do you work in silver and not gold?”    Machi: I'm happy to do any commission in gold. We both do commissions in gold. It's just harder to afford to do large pieces in gold unless somebody's already paying you to do it. It's just very, very expensive.   Sharon: Do you ever rhodium plate your silver with Argentium, or whatever that brand name is?   Machi: Argentium. I use a lot of Argentium in my own work, almost exclusively but not quite, because it doesn't tarnish as much as sterling silver. Janet uses some Argentium silver and sterling silver. I do not rhodium plate partly because rhodium has actually become very expensive as well, and I prefer not to plate things because if there's a plate, it can come off. You don't want the customer to have a piece that looks great and then you have to replate it over a few years. So, I don't really like to plate my pieces unless absolutely necessary. I don't think Janet does much plating either.    Sharon: What's your favorite kind of thing to make? Is it a bracelet, a ring, a necklace?   Machi: Oh, I like all of it. I think Janet and I are both—what's the word—I was going to say obsessed, but maybe passionate sounds better. We are both never bored of jewelry. We like to make pretty much everything. I would say at the moment, my favorite thing is brooches, but I'm happy to make anything.   Sharon: I'm not any kind of maker, but it seems like a brooch would be easier because you only have to make one of those, as opposed to an earring or something where they have to match.   Machi: Yeah, I suppose so, although earrings don't have to match.   Sharon: Today they don't. That's true.   Machi: In the 20s they wore mismatched earrings, so you can always use that excuse. I guess with the brooch, the important thing is the pin. You want a really good pin that's going to hold the brooch up and it's not going to flop forward. It will hold on to whatever you're wearing but also not be impossible to put on and off. There are different things for each piece that you have to look out for.   Sharon: What do you teach your students about pins? Before you even start, do you have to think about what kind of fabric it's going to be worn with?   Machi: Yes, absolutely. A really small brooch, you could wear on linen, but you have to think about the size of the pin, the material you're going to put it through, how it's going to hang, how heavy it is, whether you want a double pin. There are all kinds of different things you can put it on. It depends what you want to use it for, because it's totally different if you want it for, let's say, a winter wool coat versus holding on a silk scarf. It really depends on the end use. You have to think about that before you start making.   Sharon: What are the other things you counsel your students to think about before they start?    Machi: The order of fabrication. If you don't think about it and then you get halfway through your project, then you realize, “Oh, I should have done that before that,” that can cause problems. It's important to have at least a basic plan of the order you're going to do things in so that it works out.   Sharon: Does your book talk about that? It talks about fabrication?   Machi: Yes.   Sharon: Did you have to look for a while before you found a publisher? I can't remember.   Machi: It was actually quite funny. I had been talking to not only Janet, but my other jewelry friends, and I said, “Oh, Janet and I are going to write a book,” and of course it didn't happen. Then one of our jewelry friends was at a craft fair and a publisher, which turned out to be Search Press, approached her and said, “Do you want to write a book about jewelry making?” and she said, “No, absolutely not, but I know somebody who does.” Then Janet and I approached Search Press and proposed what we wanted to write, and it was exactly what they were looking for. It was total serendipity. We wanted to write exactly what they wanted somebody to write for them.    For us, it was fantastic because Search Press is an award-winning craft publisher. Not only are they excellent at editing and putting together the actual book and the layout and so on, but we had a professional photographer for, I think, five days and we worked in the photography studio. We made the things in the studio and the photographer could take pictures of every little detail. We were worried that maybe there would be a limit on the number of pictures they would take, but he took thousands of pictures. We got all the detailed photographs we wanted, which was so important for visual learners especially, to be able to see exactly what we were talking about.   Sharon: Do you have to be a visual learner for this to work?   Machi: I don't think so, but that's because I'm a reader and Janet's a visual learner. She'll look at all the pictures and I'll look at all the words. It turned out to be perfect for the balance, because I was constantly checking the words and she was constantly checking the pictures.   Sharon: I guess I'm not a do-it-yourselfer. Can I learn how to make the jewelry that you talk about in this book?   Machi: Yeah, totally. If you want to, absolutely.   Sharon: If I want to, that's the question. Did the two of you ever teach together in a classroom or any kind of school?   Machi: No, we generally teach our own classes, but we've covered each other's classes quite a bit. When her husband was unwell, I covered her classes, and when I was doing this degree, she covered my classes. We're very comfortable taking over from each other because we know what the other is doing.   Sharon: Did you think about doing this book with somebody else?   Machi: No, it had to be Janet.   Sharon: What would she tell me about working with you?   Machi: I think she would say that we complement each other very well. Janet can do everything she wants to with computers, but it's definitely not her favorite thing. So, I did all the typing. We did everything together. Part of it was during lockdown, so we did loads over Facetime. We would talk over Facetime while I was typing. I typed everything, so that worked out really well. She definitely would have gotten mad at the computer at some point and probably thrown it out the window.   Sharon: Was one of you responsible for CAD or anything like that? When you talk about computers, I think of things that are much more intricate than typing.   Machi: This was just typing. It was just about formatting the text so the publisher could take it and rework it into the format they wanted for the book.   Sharon: Did the publisher tell you how long they wanted it to be or what they wanted in the book?   Machi: Yeah, that was way back at the beginning. When we sat down with them, they said, “O.K., it's going to be 192 pages.” “O.K.” From the get-go, they knew exactly what they wanted, and then we worked with them within those parameters. It's also quite funny; jewelers notoriously have terrible nails because they're constantly getting their nails dirty and breaking. It was actually in the contract that we had to get a manicure before we got the pictures done for the book so our nails wouldn't be too disgusting.   Sharon: Wow! That's like a manicurist. A manicurist usually has nails that aren't done.   Machi: Actually, yeah.   Sharon: So, you had to get manicures before the photos were done.   Machi: Yeah.   Sharon: What kind of troubleshooting tips do you give in the book?   Machi: This is where our experience with teaching really shows because we know in a classroom setting when students get stuck and when they get frustrated. The troubleshooting is about the points that are more difficult. For example, with soldering, there are a lot of little details that can go wrong, and people get frustrated. There's a whole section about solder troubleshooting.    Then there's also quite a bit about making joins. Whenever you put something together, like a ring or a bangle or a jump ring, the join has to be really good. It has to be clean, and it has to fit fairly well. So, there's a whole section about what to do if your join is not good and how to fix it.    There's also troubleshooting for stone setting because there's a bit of a temptation, especially with your first-ever stone setting, to get excited and put the stone in to test if it fits before you should put it in, before the item, whatever it is, is finished. Then people get their stones stuck. There's a whole section for four different ways to get your stone out of a setting because you've put it in too early.   Sharon: Can you do something if a join doesn't fit? If a jump ring doesn't fit, what can you do?   Machi: Yeah. A clear example is when you make a ring and it's too small or too big. What do you do? If it's too small, you can put it back on the ring mandrel, which is like a steel-tapered tool you form the rings around. You can put the ring on it, and then you use a mallet, which is a soft hammer, and you hit it down the mandrel so it stretches it. Just because your ring is too small, all is not lost. You can still stretch it. If it's too big, you can cut out a little piece and then resolder it and make it the right size. There's usually some way of fixing it.   Sharon: Do you talk about that just in your classes, or do you also talk about that in the book?   Machi: It's in the book.   Sharon: Wow! Is the book available everywhere that you would buy an art book?   Machi: I checked and it's available on Amazon U.S., of course, and Target. I'm trying to remember the other American things. I looked up on the internet where it is. To my surprise, it was available in the Brooklyn Library, which is nice.    Sharon: I'm surprised it's available in the U.S. I hadn't thought to look, but I guess it makes sense with Amazon U.S. being so big. I've encountered books that are just in Great Britain and they're not in the U.S., so that's what I was thinking.   Machi: I think that's part of the advantage of working with Search Press because they have so much experience in this arena. They got the book absolutely everywhere. It's on Amazon U.S., U.K., Holland, Japan, Scandinavia, everywhere. It's also on Penguin U.S., I think on the website. I'm not totally sure if it's on the website, but it's definitely available everywhere, basically.   Sharon: Did they do the translating?   Machi: Yup.   Sharon: So, you didn't have to be involved or worry about any of that.   Machi: No, I don't even know the details of that. They just took over all of that because they're super-experienced with these things.   Sharon: That's pretty good. What's your next book?   Machi: We vaguely have an idea to do a follow-up book for this, but I think I might have to convince Janet of it. We'll see.   Sharon: Focusing on silver jewelry again?   Machi: Yes, definitely. We both love making and we love teaching. We just enjoy watching our students go from strength to strength and make their own pieces. Giving people the ability to work on their own is definitely very satisfying.   Sharon: You talk about picking a project in the book and taking it further. Can you give me some examples of that?   Machi: We do the preliminary part of that, and at the end of every project in the book, there's a progression section which says, “Well, now that you can do this, you can do that.” For example, once you have done all the projects, all the way at the end, it shows that you can also make cufflinks and tie tacks based on the information you've learned throughout the other projects. We tried to cover as many different types of pieces of jewelry as possible, so that at the end you can do that.   After that, there's a section in the back about how to design your own jewelry and how to move forward with thinking about how to design and progressing to make other things. It's all building blocks. You need the core skills, which are described in great detail, and you can constantly refer back to those, but you can keep building and building and then using the troubleshooting sections to get you out of problems.   Sharon: It would seem like after you write one book, you'd say, “That's it. I'm done.” What makes you want to write another book?   Machi: I'm not so sure we will because this one took three years from beginning to end. It was a lot of work. It was really, really satisfying, especially because Search Press gave us such a good photographer. It really made it to a quality level that we were very happy with. It had so much detail in the photography and the words. We were really pleased with the outcome and with the feedback we've had. We've had really good feedback from people saying, “I always use this book to get me out of problems when I'm working on my own.” That's really satisfying. Whether we'll actually do another one, I don't know. I have to talk to Janet again.   Sharon: What would be on your wish list? I keep going back to this. Would it be gold? Would it be silver? Would it be copper?   Machi: I think silver again because this is just seven projects, but there's no end to how many projects you could do. For example, I'd be interested in adding a project about doing a box, working with hinges, doing gold foil—which is called keum-boo, where you fuse gold foil to silver—or making a large bangle. There's no end to the possibilities, but just moving it up with different levels of complexity.   Sharon: Fusing gold to a silver object, that seems like it would be asking for trouble in the sense that you're asking for something to come off.    Machi: Well, the gold foil fusing is actually bonding, so it becomes one metal. It can't come off. You could scratch it, but you can't take it off if you do it correctly.    Sharon: Do you see this being the start of your empire, you and Janet, the start of an empire of silver and then going on to bronze or gold or some other metal?   Machi: Both of us just really love silver and the accessibility of silver. Some other people have written very good books about gold. Gold is a whole other thing. I think with silver, there's so much more to explore that still stays accessible in terms of cost. I think we would probably be more interested in that. I am not sure. It depends. I have to bribe Janet.    Sharon: I've heard people say they don't like silver because you have to polish it and polish it—I'm talking about sterling silver—if it's not plated. Somehow that stops it from tarnishing.    Machi: There is no getting around that. Sterling silver will tarnish, but it does tarnish more if you don't wear it. Like a ring, if you just wear it all the time, it generally is going to tarnish less, although it does depend on your skin. Some people's skin reacts with silver more than others. That's why I use a lot of Argentium silver, because it tarnishes far less than regular sterling silver. It's technically more tarnish resistant. It doesn't not tarnish, but it's definitely less, so there's less maintenance with it. That's why I use that. Janet also uses it to some degree.   Sharon: Is it more expensive?   Machi: A fraction, but nothing significant. Sterling silver is 92.5% silver with the rest being copper, and Argentium silver is 94% silver. It has a higher silver content. It also is copper, but it has a little bit of germanium. The germanium forms an oxide on the outside of the metal, which stops it from tarnishing so it stays white. Well, it doesn't entirely stop it from tarnishing, but it keeps it from tarnishing as much as sterling. It definitely stays cleaner. If you're very bothered by tarnish or if you find that you're cleaning your jewelry, I would say to look for Argentium silver jewelry.   Sharon: Is that something you talk about in the book or in your classes?   Machi: I do talk about that in my classes. It's not in the book, but that's partly because when you start, it's just easier to access sterling silver. Now, you can get Argentium in the U.S. and here, no problem, but Argentium was changing slightly. The inventor of Argentium changed the alloy slightly last year, so it's better than it was before, but it was still shifting; things were changing. We didn't discuss it in the book because it would have been too much other information. There's only so much you can cover with jewelry that we had to limit it somehow.   Sharon: 192 pages is still quite limiting.   Machi: Yeah, and there's still a lot in there.   Sharon: What is the difference rhodium and Argentium?   Machi: Rhodium is really used only for plating. Argentium is another silver alloy. So, there's sterling silver and Argentium silver.   Sharon: So, you would make something first and then dip it. I don't know. I have this image of dipping it in the rhodium, but you would make it out of Argentium first.   Machi: Yes, rhodium is a very traditional thing to plate with. White gold especially is often plated with rhodium to keep it very white and then it doesn't tarnish. Silver is generally not rhodium-plated, or at least not for individual makers because it wouldn't make sense cost-wise. It would add a significant amount of cost. Most silver you buy from an individual maker is not going to be plated.    Sharon: That's interesting. I've been told that white gold in its natural form yellows over the years. I don't know if that's true or not.   Machi: Yeah, that's why white gold usually is plated with rhodium gold, especially if it's commercially imported, to guarantee it's rhodium plated. At the moment, there's a bit of a shift going on in the industry with rhodium, partly because it was getting so expensive and partially for environmental reasons. It's not that environmentally friendly. A whole bunch of the platers I use in London were moving away from rhodium to different white metals to change the way they plate so there were fewer environmental issues. So, there's a bit of a shift going with that. You've got to watch the space. Things are changing on that.    Sharon: So, you go back to the same people to buy your stuff from. You keep going back to the same to people buy it. That's interesting.   Machi: Yes, and we have a list in the book—no, we don't have a list. We mention a couple of suppliers, but there's actually a list on the publisher's website for suppliers because suppliers change, of course. In the U.S., the main supplier is Rio Grande, and in the U.K., the main supplier is Cooksongold. Those are the big suppliers. Their websites are excellent, which makes it much easier to order the materials.   Sharon: Are they related, Cooksongold and Rio Grande? I know Rio Grande. Are they related?   Machi: No, not as far as I know. Their owners aren't the same, so I don't think so.   Sharon: O.K. Machi, thank you very much. I'm glad to know that it's not Machi, it's Machi. Thank you. I looked at that and thought, “It sounds right.” It's M-A-C-H-I, and the last name has a “D-E” and then a capital “W-A-A-R-D.” The book is available now. It's “Silver Jewelry Making,” and it's available from Search Press.    Machi: Yes.   Sharon: You can find it in the U.K. and in the U.S. and all over the world, it sounds like, or they can contact you. Thank you, and thank you to Janet. We'll look forward to your next book.   Machi: Thank you very much.    Sharon: Thank you for being here today.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.     

What you'll learn in this episode:   Why even jewelry novices can learn to make silver jewelry at home with affordable tools How Machi and her co-author Janet turned their in-person jewelry making classes into a book What safety concerns to consider when making DIY jewelry How working with silver compares to working with other metals, and where beginner makers should start What mistakes beginner makers commonly make and how to fix them    About Machi de Waard Machi de Waard is a designer-jeweller and jewellery tutor. Jewellery has been her full-time pursuit since early 2007, and Machi's work has been shown at galleries, fairs and exhibitions. Machi combines her studio practice with teaching, having taught jewellery making for over ten years in various locations throughout the UK. Her interests in modern art, particularly in sculpture and minimalism, influence her work.   Additional Resources: www.machidewaard.co.uk  insta: @machi_jewellery  www.janetrichardson.co.uk  insta: @janrichardsonjewellery Book links: Amazon U K Waterstones Blackwells Search Press Guardian Bookstore Amazon USA Penguin Random House Bol.com in the Netherlands Amazon Germany   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney,com   Transcript:   sWorking with metal might seem     d and co-author Janet Richardson, “Silver Jewelry Making: A Complete Step-By-Step Course,” includes seven projects that help beginner makers build on their skills and make real jewelry at home with simple tools. Machi joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the serendipitous way the book got published; why silver is the best metal for beginners to start with; and which common mistakes DIY makers should watch out for. Read the episode                            internet is maybe not—I'm not going to say incorrect, but not the best advice. c Sometimes it can be a bit confusing. So, it's having all the information in one          place, and because Janet and I both have so much experience teaching, we know everything in here works. Also, sometimes when you're reading things or you see stuff on the internet, it's like, “You must do it this way.” But jewelry making has been around for several millennia, so everything could pretty much be done two or three or even more different ways. We try to emphasize that you could do it this way or you could do it this way, and the important thing is finding the one that works for you.   Sharon: You mentioned that you have a lot of experience teaching. You both have won awards for your jewelry, is that correct?   Machi: Janet has—I just finished an MA at the Royal College of Art in jewelry and metal. I finished two weeks ago. My work was chosen as one of the best of the graduate work this year in the country, which was fantastic. Janet's jewelry has actually been in Vogue Magazine and is part of the collection of the Dallas Museum of Art, I believe.   Sharon: I think it's Houston or one of them in the state. Why did you decide to write the book on silver if you have all this experience in different areas?   Machi: Both of us mainly work in silver, so that's our main metal. We know how to work it really well and we have a lot of experience in it, teaching it as well. I can't remember if I said this already, but Janet has been teaching for over 45 years. I've been teaching for over 15. So, we know what happens in the classroom and when people have problems working with silver. We have a lot of advice.   Sharon: Is silver easier to work than other metals?   Machi: No, it's just different. Every metal has its properties and its own ways of being easier or harder. I would say it's just different. For example, if you know how to work with silver, it's quite easy to then move on to gold, although you will have to adjust certain things. We work a lot with copper and brass as well because those are similar in their working properties, but much cheaper. You can practice things in copper if you wanted to before making it in silver. Each metal has its own pros and cons, and you just have experience with it. The more experience you have, the more different metals you can work with.   Sharon: Why did the two of you decide you had to write a book? Why was it the two of you as opposed to writing on your own or Janet on her own?   Machi: We've known each other a long time now, so we already knew we could work together. Actually, we're good friends, but we also cover each other's classes. Sometimes I can't teach, so she does mine and vice versa. A few years ago—it must have been quite a while ago now—I realized that she had really refined her teaching strategy. She had a really good, 10-week program that had projects that build and build the core skills. At the end of the 10 weeks, the student could move on to their own designs. I thought, “This whole structure is so beautifully done. It works so well. It would be ideal for a book.” So, it was my idea to write a book, but it's her experience and her class structure that we used.   Sharon: Did you have to think about it a while before you actually wrote the book? Did the two of you have to think about it?   Machi: No, we already knew exactly what we wanted to do because our teaching style is very similar. We knew the projects we wanted to include. We knew basically exactly what we wanted to do. So, that was a good thing.   Sharon: Can somebody spend $10 or $20 or $50? How much do they have to spend in order to have the stuff to start making something?   Machi: The way we structured the book, it's sequential. You should start at the first project and then build on that. Each project has a list of tools you need for that project, and then the next one says what more tools you need. A lot of the tools are things you have at home already, like a glass bowl and a marker pen and a piece of paper, that kind of thing.    Then there are a few specialized tools you need to get. At the beginning of the book, we have a large section about all the tools and which ones are worth investing in a higher-quality version, which ones aren't, which ones can be substituted with a regular household item like a teaspoon. It really depends on how much money you want to spend because many of these tools—there's a huge trade in secondhand tools. If you have time, you can shop around and get a good deal.     To answer this question, this morning I had a look at the first project. If you buy everything new, if you don't already have some of the household things like a glass bowl, it's roughly 120 pounds, which is $150, to get all the tools new. That means you could definitely spend less than that. For example, if you've done beading before, you will already have pliers. It's kind of a woolly answer, but it depends on what you already have; it depends on how much time you want to shop around; it depends on whether you go to car boot sales, which are not called that in the U.S. What are they called? Garage sales. If you to garage sales, that's it.   Sharon: I've done only a little bit of silversmithing, but the big thing I remember is the safety and the gases and all of that. How do you deal with that?   Machi: Silversmithing is bigger, so there are more issues, but jewelry making is quite small. Generally, the safety is about protecting your eyes and your hands and feet, so goggles, gloves and closed shoes. Then there's really commonsense stuff, like if you have long hair, you should tie it back. You shouldn't wear dangly scarves or anything that could get caught in the machinery. When you're working that small, there are some precautions, but you don't need any of the fancy equipment. The main thing I would say is you need to have some sort of ventilation. You can't work in a completely closed room with no windows.    Sharon: Why did you decide that you had to write a book like this? What was the catalyst?   Machi: I have a huge collection of jewelry books. It's sort of embarrassing how many I have. I have pretty much all of the ones that have been written. But sometimes the problem is that they would explain a certain skill that I was interested in, and then I sat down to do it and there wasn't quite enough detail to do it. I would sit there and be like—it would say something like, “And now solder,” and I was like, “But how?” and “What do you mean?” and “Which solder?” and “What are the details?” We tried to breach that being extremely detailed and acting like we were there in the room with you saying, “Don't forget to do this. If it doesn't work, try this,” all those little details that make it possible to do it successfully.   Sharon: Can you wear this stuff afterwards?   Machi: Oh yes, absolutely.   Sharon: So, you make earrings or a necklace, something you can wear.   Machi: Yes.   Sharon: What do you do with the things you've made? Do you exhibit them?   Machi: My own work you mean?   Sharon: And Janet's.   Machi: Oh yes, both of us sell. We have work in galleries and craft fairs and exhibitions and a little bit online as well, but mostly we do in-person craft fairs and shows and things where we sell our jewelry.   Sharon: What made you decide you wanted to get a master's in—I don't know what you call it there, but here we call it a master's—in the different kinds of metals?   Machi: Yeah, it is a master's. The Royal College of Art here has an incredible amount of equipment, so it was partially to try new equipment that I wouldn't have any access to normally. Also, their technicians there are phenomenally skilled. It was all the little things that are like, “Yeah, I could do that a bit better.” It was a year to really push my skills to the next level. It was an enormous challenge to spend that much time making something absolutely perfect.   Sharon: What did you learn that you didn't know before?   Machi: I generally make jewelry, so I made some larger pieces. I did something called scoring, which is like origami except with metal. You make a tool which you score the metal with. If you can score paper, you just fold it, but you can't fold metal. You have to make a little groove to fold it. So, I made the tool to make those little grooves, and those little grooves are at exact angles depending on how far you want to bend it up. If you do 45 degrees, then you can bend it so you can get different angles on a larger piece. Essentially it was miniature silversmithing. So, that was interesting.   Sharon: Was that your choice?   Machi: Yes, that was my choice. The other thing I did was learn how to use a hydraulic press and make steel dies to press forms, which was a totally different thing for me. That was really fascinating, to learn how to make tools myself.   Sharon: I would have been afraid of smashing my fingers or something.   Machi: Funny you should say that. I did smash my finger and I ended up in the hospital, but luckily it wasn't too bad. I did not do any lasting damage, but yes, it's definitely possible to hurt your hands. I wouldn't recommend it because it really was not good. I had my finger in a bandage for three weeks. I could have never finished this degree without Janet because she had to be my right hand for a couple of weeks. So, I feel like we both earned this.    Sharon: Did you tell her what to do step by step or did she know what to do?   Machi: She's very experienced, and she helped me with the hydraulic press because I couldn't pull the lever anymore because I had this huge bandage on. So, she was helping me, and she had to saw for me. She knew what to do, but it was definitely a team effort.   Sharon: Did you learn something about safety in doing that?   Machi: Yes, because I hadn't worked that much with steel. When you put steel on a lathe, which is what I was doing, the edges can become ludicrously sharp, like sharper than the sharpest knife. I didn't realize that, and now I will never forget it.   Sharon: So, steel is harder to work with than if you're working with silver.   Machi: Yes.   Sharon: You can cut yourself. Can you do this on your own at home? You say you have a kitchen table or—   Machi: Not working on steel, no. Silver is much softer. You're not going to hurt yourself like that; I mean, thankfully not. I was working with some really big equipment at the college, which you normally would never have any access to. Just working with silver, what we're doing in the book with jewelry, it would take some doing to hurt yourself. We've highlighted all the safety issues at the beginning of the book and also per project. So, you should be totally safe.   Sharon: Aren't there any issues with fumes or anything like that?   Machi: Not for the projects we have in the book. I'm trying to think if there's anything. No, nothing specific that we have in the book. We use Platinol, which is an oxidizing solution which is not dangerous, but it smells terrible. We advise ventilation because it smells like rotting eggs, but if you smell it, it's not going to be dangerous for you in any way. I wouldn't inhale it on purpose because it smells terrible, but it's all right with some basic ventilation.   Sharon: What is it called?   Machi: It's called Platinol. That's a particular brand name, but it's basically a sulfur solution. It's also sold as liver of sulfur. That one is slightly different because you can get different gradations of oxidation with liver sulfur. Platinol, the brand, just gives you that dark gray color that you get with antique-looking jewelry.   Sharon: Can you transfer these skills to other metals?   Machi: Yeah, definitely. It's most transferrable to brass, copper and gold because those behave in a similar way, but each one has their own special thing that is different. Gold obviously has different karats. So, when you're working with silver—and we explain in the book that there are different solders. So, when you move to gold, then you would use gold solders, but with gold solders, you need to match the karat so the color matches. If you're working with 18 karat, you would use 18-karat solder, whereas with silver, you're just going to use silver solder because there are no carats.   Sharon: What attracted you to jewelry, to any kind, initially?   Machi: I have always liked jewelry making. Even when I was really small, I used to make beaded jewelry. I would pick up little things like a little chain and put paper on it, anything to make jewelry. I always found it really fascinating. It's an art form, and it's like miniature sculpture. It's wearable sculpture.    Sharon: Would you say that Janet has the same idea? When you were younger, did you like to work with your hands?   Machi: Yes, my whole family is very artistic. My mom is a painter, and my sister works with quilting and knitting. My grandmother got awards for her—I'm trying to think of the English word where you arrange flowers. I forgot what that's called. But anyway, she got awards for her bouquet making. She also did cross stitch and knitting and tapestry making. My whole family is very artistic, and Janet has been interested in art.   Sharon: Is it necessary to have that kind of interest?   Machi: No, not at all. I see it with my art students. Janet and I over the years have had a lot of students. Some people who come in get into it immediately, and some people have no interest or no background in art in particular. They come in a little bit nervous, like, “I don't have any real artistic skill. Do I need that?” But it's not about sitting there and drawing something. It's about working with the metal and then seeing where it goes for you. The first projects you do are about learning the skills. You don't have to already have an idea or anything. I find that all my students, after a while, think, “Oh yeah, I made this, so now I can make two of those. Oh, what if I combine them?” Then they can start combining things and it just goes from there. So, there's no need to have any kind of previous experience in any other art.    Sharon: Do you ever combine gems with your silver? Not real gems, but any kind of gem?   Machi: Oh, yeah. Janet actually uses more gemstones than I do. She uses quite a bit of—let me think of what she generally uses. Topaz and aquamarine and diamonds and all kinds of things. I don't use that many in my own work, but I do a lot with my teaching, and Janet does as well. We do all kinds of different stone setting.    In the book, there is puzzle-set cabochon stone. A cabochon stone has a flat bottom and then it has a rounded, buffed top. That's generally where you start with stone setting. You start with that type of stone because it's the easiest one to set. Then you move on to shapes like ovals and marquise, which is the one that's got a pointy top and a pointy bottom and then curves on either side. They're very pretty. Then you can move on to faceted. All the different stones have different stone settings.   Sharon: Did you start with a cabochon and then move on?   Machi: Oh, yes, absolutely. So did Janet, although she started a long time ago.    Sharon: Let me see. What other questions did I want to ask you. What continues to attract you to silver?   Machi: We were talking about this on Sunday when we got together, and both of us said there's something about silver. It's so beautiful. The color is amazing. It's this white shininess. The shine, of course, is very well-known, and the material itself is very ductile and malleable. So, if you give a hundred people a piece of silver and say, “Make something,” you will get a hundred different things. Once you know how to use it, it becomes like a friend. It just does what you want it to do, and it moves in ways that you want it to move. There's so much you can do with it, so many different ways. I would say there are endless possibilities with it. It's just a beautiful metal while remaining relatively affordable compared to gold.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.s

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Nicola allows for spontaneity in her work, and how she decides when a piece is done Why the texture and physical sensation of jewelry is just as important as its aesthetic Why Nicola hopes her jewelry connects the wearer to nature How Nicola has forged successful relationships with galleries throughout Europe How metals can combine to create harmonious color combinations   About Nicola Heidemann Nicola Heidemann is a German art jeweler who seeks, through her work, to express her closeness to nature. Heidemann is interested in the ways the shapes and colors of the natural environment inform our sense of beauty, and she considers herself to be a collector—of allusions, impressions, associations.   Additional Resources: Nicola's Website Nicola's Instagram   Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Like nature itself, Nicola Heidemann's jewelry can never be completely controlled. Using heat coloring techniques to create jewelry that evokes the beauty of the natural world, Nicola allows the material to tell her when the piece is finished. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the materials she uses the most; why the ability to touch and carry her jewelry is central to her work; and why she hopes her jewelry bonds the wearer to nature. Read the episode transcript here.     Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.   Today, my guest is Nicola Heidemann. She's based in Germany, in Stuttgart, and she founded Nicola Heidemann Jewelry. Welcome back.    I have the earrings and I have the bracelet. It's a bunch of connections. Do you think about that? Did you sketch out the earrings before you started, or do you sketch out a necklace?   Nicola: Yes, I do. Also, I have a leitmotif to have a memory of how I did it. Most of the time, I also sketch the shapes of the pebbles. For example, the bracelet you have, the pebbles have to match together. I sketch this connection of the pebbles and the shapes of the pebbles so that they are fitting together.    Sharon: Is that how it forms a bond? You say that jewelry forms a bond with nature. How does it form a bond, and what kind of bond does it form?   Nicola: Mainly through my memory or my soul. I feel quite connected with nature. I'm a gardener. A lot of time I spend in my garden and outside in the woods. It's like a sense or a feeling. It's my feeling with my bonds to nature. I hope to trigger this. When a person is seeing my jewelry, I hope it's functioning. I don't know.   Sharon: Do you think it's important that somebody understands that before they buy a piece of jewelry? Some artists think it's important that somebody knows the philosophy. Some do. Some don't. Do you think it's important that people know the philosophy behind your jewelry?   Nicola: For me, no, it's not important. First of all, it's important that the people have a feeling and they fall in love and they have their own ideas with a piece. Maybe later they can read about my philosophy, but on the first side, I hope the piece is triggering these feelings. So, for me, philosophy is later.   Sharon: I'm curious. How do you sell? Do you sell mostly at popups like Schmuck? Do you sell to galleries, or do you ramp up because Christmas is coming? How do you work?   Nicola: I sell exclusively with galleries. For me, that's the best way because they know the audience; they know my work. I have wonderful gallerists and gallery owners who are supporting me and I am in connection with them. I always have discussions with them. It's really supportive. I love this gallery system because I can work at my studio. I send them my pieces and they say, “O.K., people love it,” or sometimes, “Please make it a bit shorter.” I love that.   Sharon: Do they ask you for changes sometimes? Like you said, they want it shorter. Do they say to you, “We need more bracelets,” or “We need a ring,” or “we need necklaces”?   Nicola: Yes, sometimes. One of my really important gallery owners is Gallerie Slavik in Vienna. She's really supportive, and she makes amazing work at her gallery. For me, the information I get from her about how my pieces are—   Sharon: How they're seen? If I see them in a case, first of all, they're distinctive. I know it's your piece. If I see it, I know automatically who made it. Do you think other people see that?    Nicola: I think yes. I think I'm quite known in the field for now.    Sharon: Known in the field throughout Europe? I don't see your jewelry in the States. I wonder, are you known here? Are you known in Eastern Europe? Where are you known?   Nicola: In Europe. I used to work with the States, but for the moment, it's so complicated. I leave it up to the gallery owners to send the pieces. It's a part of the work I don't like, this paperwork and customs. I'm really grateful that gallery owners do that for me.    Sharon: Did you always like jewelry or small things? You said you like small things. Did you always like jewelry?    Nicola: Yes. I started quite early with some wire and, as I told you, some wooden pieces or pebbles. I started to learn it in my own studio. I think that was 38 years ago. Yes, I started with my own studio.   Sharon: Wow, that's a long time!    Nicola: Yeah, and I was really researching and experimenting. I wasn't a trained jeweler. I was taught by myself.    Sharon: Did you work with other metals besides titanium and copper? Did you experiment with other metals and come back to the titanium?   Nicola: I started with copper and brass and silver. The titanium I think I found maybe 10 years ago; I'm not sure.    Sharon: What did you like about it? It seems like you made a lot.    Nicola: In former times, I used to put color into my jewelry with gemstones. I really love color, and this was a possibility to put silver jewelry with some of my gemstones, but it was too small for me. I wanted to have bigger fields of color. When I explored the titanium, I fell in love with the color possibilities. On the other side, it's really weightless. You can make really big, bold jewelry pieces, but they are very comfortable to wear because they are so light.   Sharon: Yes, they are.    Nicola: It's two qualities. It's really light and it's this colorful quality.   Sharon: When you're gardening, what do you find? Does that give you ideas? You mentioned flowers. What do you like to garden?   Nicola: I did learn in my garden as well. I can put some flowers in, but nature will decide if they can stay there, and nature sends me different flowers. Some people call them weeds, but for me, it's wildflowers. My garden is full of wildflowers and vegetables. It's a bit of a chaotic mixture, but it's like in nature. The colors are beautiful. I'm always surprised about how my garden is developing similar to my jewelry. I'm surprised.   Sharon: It seems like it is similar to jewelry in that you wait for the garden to come up. You don't start and think, “It has to be this way.” That's interesting.    Are you starting to make a lot of new pieces? Is there a demand for new pieces at Schmuck and for Christmas? Are you busier now than other times of the year?   Nicola: Now, I'm not. For me, Christmas is not so important. The galleries are selling all year, so Christmas is not so important. Sometimes I prepare an exhibition when I try to make a bigger collection, but normally I work as I like and as I feel.   Sharon: Do the gallery owners, the gallerists, ever call you up and say, “It's been a long time since we've seen anything from you”? Do they bug you? Do they notice if you haven't sent something?   Nicola: I've been in good contact with all my gallery owners. That's maybe a reason why I like to have gallery owners in Europe. I visit them. I really love to visit my gallery owners. I go to Amsterdam or Vienna or Ravensburg. For me, the contact is really important.   Sharon: Do you they know you're coming or do you walk in?   Nicola: No, they know. We have an appointment.   Sharon: What do you want people to remember when they wear your jewelry? What kind of feeling do you want them to have?   Nicola: I want them to remember that our planet is beautiful. We are part of nature and we can be very, very lucky to spend some time here and to enjoy nature's beauty.   Sharon: Do you think it's important that somebody recognizes that?   Nicola: Yes, definitely. Facing all of our problems with climate change and extinction of fauna and flora, yes, I think it's really important to remember that nature is our home and we are a part of it. Definitely.   Sharon: Sometimes I wonder when it is art jewelry. There's a meaning there, but I tend to like the jewelry. Maybe the meaning is important, but I once heard somebody say they wouldn't buy unless they met the artist. I didn't understand that, really. Besides the heat treating of the metal, have you tried other techniques?   Nicola: For coloring, sometimes I use pigments and powder coating and some lacquers to get different colors, like a grass green or red. Other techniques, I forge. Some years ago, I was weaving titanium like basket weaving. That was a different technique. It was also blue-colored titanium wires. I was weaving some pieces like baskets.   Sharon: Wow! You mentioned that you use a different technique to get green like grass, but a lot of your titanium pieces seem to have that without anything else.   Nicola: There is a green appearing on titanium with heat, but it's a bit more bluish. When I want to have a green more yellowish, I add some transparent paint so I can also see the metal surface. It's not completely covered. The heat coloring is shining through the transparent layer of, in that case, a yellowish green.   Sharon: How often would you say you do this, and how many pieces? Is that an exception, that you paint, or is it something you do often with different techniques? The things I have seen have been titanium. They're blue or green.    Nicola: It's just an addition, I think. Sometimes I want to have this yellowish green, and I try to reach this, but most of my colors are only heat colors.   Sharon: You've been doing this for 38 years. How did you come to this? You kept experimenting and found different techniques?   Nicola: Yes, experimenting and making mistakes. I think I made a lot of mistakes and failures through the years. Maybe that's also the reason why my technique is so personal and so special.   Sharon: Do you ever want to revisit some of the other techniques you might have used earlier? Maybe you made a mistake, but you want to change the mistakes and do it again so it's O.K.   Nicola: I think all of my works are spoken in the same language, but 38 years ago, I wasn't able to make it really good or advanced. Now I can do things better and be more focused on my ideas, but the path is really important. Like a child is starting to go, it's important to learn every step. You don't go back, but it's always a part of you.   Sharon: That's interesting. You don't go back. I have to think about whether that's true or not. Don't you think you try things over? Do you say, “I did it this way before. That didn't work and I want to do it this way. Maybe it will be work”?   Nicola: Sometimes I make an experiment. This piece is in my drawers for years, and then I take it out and say, “Oh, now, I have a solution.” Years later, I know how to deal with it and how to combine it into a piece of jewelry.   Sharon: That's really interesting. Do you have a drawer full of things like that?   Nicola: Yes, many drawers full of things, full of unfinished pieces.   Sharon: Most of the things you've described, and the things you say you like, are small. Have you ever done large pieces, sculpture, public art or anything like that?   Nicola: Actually, I tried to do it once, but I realized that's not my scale. I really like the small things, the things you can put in one or two hands or hang around your neck. It's not my scale to make sculptures.   Sharon: How did you find out that it wasn't your scale? You just felt you couldn't carry it?   Nicola: I wasn't content with the outcome of this big piece. It's not my language.   Sharon: If it had been smaller, would you have been more content? Would you have been content if it had been the same thing but smaller?   Nicola: Yeah, probably, because it was also my language, but it was a big sculpture. It's not me. I don't know how to describe it differently.   Sharon: Was it outside for a gallery, for your garden? Where did you put it?   Nicola: I think it ended up in my garden and I forgot it. Probably now, it's underneath a layer of moss or grass; I don't know.   Sharon: There is a sculpture near here, a large one that people pass all the time. Unless you know it's there, you don't stop. Sometimes people are startled because they happen to notice it. I think I understand a little bit what you're saying. If the sculpture had been on a chain you could put around your neck, a small thing, would you have liked it more?    Nicola: Yeah, of course.    Sharon: What do you like making most?    Nicola: You mean what kind of jewelry?   Sharon: Yeah, what kind of jewelry.    Nicola: A difficult question. I think I love everything. I love necklaces, long necklaces, bracelets. I love playing with rings. For me, earrings are not for the wearer, but for the person who is seeing the wearer because you don't see your earrings by yourself. But I think I love everything.   Sharon: And when you make it, you don't have a preference? If somebody gave you gems, would you incorporate them if somebody gave you a handful of gems and said, “I want these in a necklace,” or “I want these in a bracelet”?   Nicola: I don't know. I have a lot of drawers with gems. For the moment, I don't think I want to work with gems. Probably I would hide them inside a piece. But yeah, for the moment, I don't want to work with gems. It's too much. I have my colorful jewelry, and I think it would be too much to add colorful gems to my colors.    Sharon: I'm noticing the necklace you have on because it's a pretty blue. Did you make that? That's a very bright blue.   Nicola: Yes, I made that recently. The inside is polished and the outside is rough. Also, it's this contrast between the different faces. It's just inside that's shimmering.    Sharon: Is that for the wearer, that it's shimmering, or for the person who's looking at you? I'm looking at you, for instance, and it's rough. Did you do that intentionally because you wanted to remember the roughness?   Nicola: Yeah, the outside is rough. If you touch it with your finger, you can feel this rough surface. I like that haptic sensation, that surface feel.    Sharon: And the shiny side, is that also rough?   Nicola: No, the shiny side is polished. It's quite smooth, and it's inside.    Sharon: Oh, I see. It's a good example of what you make of your philosophy. Thank you for being with us today. We really appreciate it. It's good to learn a lot more about you and what you do.   Nicola: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, and thank you for your passion and your curiosity for our field. I really appreciate that. Thank you.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Nicola allows for spontaneity in her work, and how she decides when a piece is done Why the texture and physical sensation of jewelry is just as important as its aesthetic Why Nicola hopes her jewelry connects the wearer to nature How Nicola has forged successful relationships with galleries throughout Europe How metals can combine to create harmonious color combinations   About Nicola Heidemann Nicola Heidemann is a German art jeweler who seeks, through her work, to express her closeness to nature. Heidemann is interested in the ways the shapes and colors of the natural environment inform our sense of beauty, and she considers herself to be a collector—of allusions, impressions, associations.   Additional Resources: Nicola's Website Nicola's Instagram   Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Like nature itself, Nicola Heidemann's jewelry can never be completely controlled. Using heat coloring techniques to create jewelry that evokes the beauty of the natural world, Nicola allows the material to tell her when the piece is finished. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the materials she uses the most; why the ability to touch and carry her jewelry is central to her work; and why she hopes her jewelry bonds the wearer to nature. Read the episode transcript here.     Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.   Today, my guest is Nicola Heidemann. She's based in Germany, in Stuttgart, and she founded Nicola Heidemann Jewelry. I had first seen her at Schmuck before Covid. Schmuck, for those of you who don't know, is the annual—I call it a trade show. Everybody knows it. I ask if you're going to Munich or you're going to Schmuck, and it's the same thing. She was at a table at a popup that was all over the city, but there were a couple of people who had stopped to look at her jewelry. I would have missed her totally, but it was this small group that made me curious. I stopped to look, and I was really taken by the blues and greens in her work and the shapes she uses in crafting her jewelry. It's also very deceptive. If you were to put it down on grass or on stones at the beach, it would be hard to tell her jewelry apart. It also looks heavy and it's very, very light.    Today, she'll tell us about her philosophy when it comes to both jewelry and metal and also nature, which plays a very important part in what she does. Welcome to the podcast, Nicola.   Nicola: Thank you, Sharon. Thank you for inviting me. Hi.   Sharon: Hi. You have a lot of inspiration from nature. Do you see colors in everything, other colors? You have so much that's blue and green. You get inspiration from nature, but is it from all nature, or only the sky or the ocean, which is blue, and grass?   Nicola: Nature for me is indeed the most important inspiration. I think our sense of beauty is informed by nature, by the shapes you find in nature, by the colors, the color combinations. That's my idea, to work in color combinations which you could find in nature as well. In nature, you don't have monochromatic colors or colors which are not matching to each other. This is my inspiration indeed.    Sharon: I saw some red, for instance. It's unusual for you. I saw a piece that had red in it. The inspiration for the red, and you have on a purple dress, do those come from nature or do they come from other places?   Nicola: Yes, of course. Reds you can find in flowers or in volcanic soils. Red is quite a common color in nature, but the reason why you don't see red in so many pieces of mine is that my main material I use is titanium. Titanium has a big range of plain color possibilities which don't include red, so I can make it blue and green and turquoise and yellowish, but red, I can't reach. So, for the red pieces, I must use different techniques to get it.   Sharon: I'm going to jump around because you said that titanium has a lot of different colors and that it gives you a lot of different ideas, new ideas. Do you write those down because there are so many of them?   Nicola: I don't write down. I draw a lot, but quite often the material is driving me through the process because there are some parts of my work which I can't control, and that's the heat coloring. I know it's quite good what I do, but there are some uncontrollable effects. Sometimes the material tells me, “O.K., that's the right color. Stop now.”    Sharon: If you're doing a piece and you see a color—let's say a gold that you didn't intend the piece to be—do you file that away mentally or in your drawings and think, “I'm going to try that next time or another time”? Do you think about it?   Nicola: Yes, sometimes I stop immediately and say, “O.K., this piece has to be gold now because it's such a beautiful gold.” I will stop because, when you stop the process of heating, the color remains. When I see it's so beautiful, I decide, “O.K., this piece has to be gold now.” I leave the decision sometimes to the material or to the—I don't know the word—for the moment.   Sharon: Do you go from a blue color to a green color to a gold color? I don't know how the process works. As you're heating, do you see blues and then greens and then golds?   Nicola: There's a shade of colors, a color palette. It starts with gold from a magenta. Then it's a lilac or violet, then it's blue, then it's turquoise, then it's yellowish and then the process again starts to go to pink, magenta, and then the green appears. It's a long task, and it depends on the temperature of the piece you're heating.   Sharon: You had mentioned the term shibuichi. I don't know how to say it.   Nicola: Shibuichi is a Japanese alloy which is one part of the Mokume Gane technique. It's the dark alloy of this Mokume Gane. Shibuichi is an alloy with a lot of copper, and it's also possible to heat color it. It has a warm red when you heat color it.   Sharon: So, it's a metal?   Nicola: Yeah, it's a metal alloy. It's 70% copper and 30% silver.    Sharon: Is it something that you go to your supplier and say, “I want to make this and I need some,” or do you make it?   Nicola: No, I order my metals from my supplier. I order titanium and copper and silver as wire and sheets.   Sharon: How often do you start new pieces?   Nicola: Pretty often. Sometimes a piece takes years because I'm not content, and I think, “No, it's not going to be good.” Sometimes I leave a piece for years, and then I see it again and put it out and say, “Now I have the idea. Now I can finish it.” I have a lot of pieces parallel which are not finished yet but in the making.    Sharon: Some of your pieces have dimension. Your pebble pieces seem to be folded over. What made you decide to add dimension?   Nicola: It's like in nature. On a pebble beach you have really beautiful, different shapes, and a volume is needed, I think, to tell the story I want to tell. Sometimes I want to touch a piece. I want to have it in my hand and hold it, and the volume is filling up my hand.    I don't know if I'm describing it right. For me, it's all about understanding nature. There are different terms for the word understanding in German. One is verstehen. It's like in English, understanding, but the other is begreifen, which literally means to touch it with your hand. A very important point in understanding nature is to touch it, to have this haptic experience.   Sharon: Do you live near the beach? Do you see pebbles just when you go outside?   Nicola: I live near a river beach. I often stroll around and collect pebbles. I did it when I was a child. I think that's also a reason why I love to make jewelry. It's something small you could put in your pocket and take with you. It's a beautiful pebble or a shell or a piece of wood, and for me, it's like jewelry. It's the same. It's a beautiful piece you can take with you. You are allowed to touch it with your hands. You can take it with you everywhere you go.   Sharon: Is some of your jewelry like that? Do you intend to make a piece of jewelry that somebody sticks in their pocket and knows is there?   Nicola: Sometimes, yes. They are allowed to do anything with a piece. Of course, it's also possible to wear it, but for me, this haptic sensation is so important and this idea to take it with you.   Sharon: To take the jewelry with you.   Nicola: Yes.   Sharon: Do you feel it? Let's say you're feeling stressed or talking to somebody and trying to explain something. If you feel the piece in your pocket, you feel more confident. That's what I'm looking for, confidence. Do you feel that?   Nicola: Yes, but most of the time, I touch the pieces. A ring, for example, I always play with a ring on my fingers, or I play with a chain around my neck. It's like a talisman, the piece, to be more relaxed or comfortable. The quality of the surface is often—some pieces are rough; some pieces are polished. I like the sensation the pieces cause on my fingertips when I touch them. So, yes.   Sharon: Is that why some of your jewelry is smooth and some of it's a little rougher? Is it to imitate nature, to imitate what you see?   Nicola: Yeah, maybe not to imitate, but to give a hint or to give a memory, to let people remember that we are part of nature. I think that's my story, to give a person the synch. We are part of nature and beauty is nature.   Sharon: That's interesting. Did you have that mindset when you started making jewelry or did you come to that?   Nicola: When I was a child, I collected small pieces. I built miniature landscapes in the garden, and when I painted, I painted miniature pictures of landscapes or trees. It always was a connection to nature. This is my background.   The idea to make jewelry was just to take these beautiful pieces with me. I wanted to keep them with me and to have them always with me. I'm not a trained goldsmith, so when I start a piece, sometimes I don't think about what it is. It's not going to be a necklace or a bracelet. First of all, it's an idea of a shape, a color, a face. Then later the idea is, “O.K., I want to make a necklace with this or a bracelet.”   Sharon: You don't start out where you have gold and you think, “I'm going to make a chain with it.” You shape it and it starts to take a form.   Nicola: It's the other way around. Jewelers normally have some gold; they make a chain and that's it. For me, first of all, the idea is important. Then comes the function and the wearability.   Sharon: I'm asking you because you have your pebble collection or your series of pebble jewelry, which is very interesting. Do you see pebbles and think, “I want to make a piece just like that”? How do you think about it?   Nicola: I think it's more a love affair. I love pebbles. I love the different shapes and faces. Also on a pebble beach, there's this collection of so many different pebbles. All of these come from different regions, and nevertheless they are matching or they are beautiful in this collection on a certain beach. For me, it's a desire, a desire for nature's beauty.   Sharon: It's interesting because you show some of your pieces lying on the pebbles, and it's hard to tell what's your work and what's nature's work. Is that what you were after, to have it blend in?   Nicola: I am content because I think my jewelry is almost as beautiful as nature is. Then I'm happy.   Sharon: Is that what you mean by saying that the heat colors are harmonious? I didn't understand what you meant by harmonious.   Nicola: Yeah, that's true. When you fire this metal—and it doesn't matter which metal. The heat colors of copper and the heat colors of titanium are matching or harmonious with each other. It's a harmonious match. It's like in nature. You don't have any color combinations in nature.   Sharon: Are you saying that sometimes you work with copper and sometimes it's titanium, and you get a gold color and they're similar to each other? Is that what you're saying?   Nicola: Yes, similar or matching in a way. They are not fighting each other. They are harmonious.   Sharon: Can you give us an example where you found something very harmonious that you didn't think would be harmonious when you started out?   Nicola: I made a series of earrings. I started with silver, and I sprinkled some copper inside and I heat colored it. It's a white ground with sprinkles of heat-colored copper. The top of this earring is a polished titanium, also heat colored. The colors are different, but in a way harmonious. It's three different metals, but they are playing a wonderful game together.   Sharon: Did you heat the silver first alone and then you sprinkled it?   Nicola: Yeah.   Sharon: You did. And then you played with it to see—   Nicola: Yeah, I played with it. All the silver or the metals are playing with me.    Sharon: You also said that the incomplete fascinates you. What did you mean by that?   Nicola: Sometimes you tell a story, and I probably tell stories with my jewelry as well, but it's not always visible. Sometimes I have a pebble with holes, and inside you can see a sparkle, but it's not describing or explaining on the first side what it is. Sometimes people say, “Oh, what's inside? What is it?” and I cannot explain what it is.    For me, secrets are really important. Secrets mean that you are curious; you want to explore something, but a piece of the secret always remains. It's not perfectly explained, but it makes us curious.   Sharon: Are there pieces you make with a secret that only you know or only the wearer knows?   Nicola: Maybe that. It's triggering questions. Maybe they find an answer or not, but it's a hint, and a hint always triggers you to think about it and to communicate. Sometimes my jewelry is causing communications because the people ask, “What is it, and why is it so shimmering inside? Why does it sound so interesting?” It starts a communication, and that's an effect I really love.   Sharon: That's really interesting. There's not a lot of jewelry that facilitates communication. Why do you think of yourself as a creator and not a collector?   Nicola: Or the other way around.    Sharon: You think of yourself as a collector. I pose the question: why do you think of yourself as a collector and not a creator?   Nicola: Because there's always a part which I can't control. I collect some ideas. I collect pieces and I put it together, but I'm not able to control every step of the work. That's why I say I'm a collector. Sometimes I put some ideas together, some techniques, and then something is growing and I'm not responsible for every part of it. Maybe that's the answer.   Sharon: It seems like you have a lot of ideas. I wonder how you keep track of them. If you wake up one morning and you can't think of anything to do, do you go back into your mental file drawer and think, “Well, I wanted to try this”? How do you work?   Nicola: Yeah, it's working quite easily. Sometimes I make drawings of my ideas, but most of the time, I really live with it. I go to bed with it and in the morning, I think about it. It's a bit like a permanent meditation. I am lucky enough to spend all my time with that. So, it's quite easy for me.    Sharon: When you sketch, what are you sketching? Are you sketching colors or pieces?   Nicola: I used to sketch more often and with colors, but for now, I sketch only with a pencil. Sometimes I draw some connections, sometimes technical things, how I can connect some pieces.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Joe's family history in the Thai diamond trade influences his business today How Joe generates publicity for his brand without a large PR budget Why Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry focuses on selling one-of-a-kind pieces to select clients How to wear bold, colorful jewelry without getting lost Why fine jewelry doesn't have to be limited to precious metals and gemstones About Joe Vilaiwan (Polthakorn Viboonviriyawong) Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry is the work of creative artist and designer Joe Polthakorn Viboonviriyawong, a second-generation jeweler. In his native Thailand, Joe grew up in his family's diamond jewelry business and developed an instinct for identifying quality stones and metals. A natural-born artist, Joe began designing jewelry at age 14, when he created avant grade diamond rings that hinted at his future career. As an independent visual concept designer for major retailers in the United States and Asia, he quickly became known for his bold, eye-catching store window installations. In 2005 in Los Angeles, Joe returned to his roots and launched Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry, which caught the attention of store buyers who recognized his unique blend of art and ornamentation. His meticulously hand-crafted, statement necklaces, cuffs and earrings became top sellers in museum stores and exclusive boutiques as stylish women in international fashion capitals began wearing and collecting his glamorous wearable arts. A favorite among fashion editors, stylists and celebrities, Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry has been featured in magazines, on runways and in film. Joe recently collaborated with Disney Consumer Products to create the couture jewelry collection for the major motion picture, “Oz the Great and Powerful.” Additional Resources: Joe's Website Joe's Instagram Joe's Facebook Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Although Joe Vilaiwan is known for creating large, over-the-top jewelry, he insists that anyone can wear his work—and almost everyone has, from Joan Rivers to Iris Apfel. As the founder of Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry, he has made it his mission to find the perfect piece for every client who connects with his work. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he gets inspired; how he sources the unique materials he uses in his jewelry; and how he has gotten A-list press for his brand without a large budget. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    Today, Joe will tell us how he started his business and who his clients are. Also, we'll hear how he comes up with his ideas. Welcome back.    Do you find that your jewelry sells better in a certain part of the country?   Joe: If I find my right clients, I believe that in every part of the country or a certain part of the world, I think every part of the world, they will have a group or niche who are beautiful inside and out, who are intelligent, who have great taste, a good sense of design. They're very niche, but if I find them, they'll always be my clients. It could happen any time. I have rare clients. There are clients in Palm Springs, in New York, in Europe, in Paris, in Asia. I don't think there's any particular area, but if I find the right group, obviously everywhere in the world they will be my clients.    Sharon: Your company name is Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry. To me, it's wonderful jewelry, but it's also fashion jewelry. Have you considered changing the name?   Joe: No, not at all, and I intentionally called it that. Actually, we also have a fine jewelry collection. You must see it. I do not bring it to the Beverly Hills Art Show because it's a little dangerous because it's outdoors. But we've had a fine jewelry collection for the last six or seven years already, and it's actually been doing very well. We use diamonds, real gemstones, because I have my family backing me up on that in the factory and with sources. My parents bought them in cash and it was a kit, so we have a great source of stones.   However, even when I started with custom jewelry, I still want to call it fine jewelry. For me, fine doesn't have to be diamonds. It's just personal taste, but fine for me means fine craftsmanship, fine material, fine production. You find out about the inspiration and the way I design them. Everything is for fine people. That's what the meaning of fine jewelry is for me. That's why it's become fine jewelry for everyone. Even though it is crystals and shells, the way it's made is not different from the production we use with emeralds or blue sapphire or anything. The craftsmanship is always the best. I think I might be the only company in the world that has a lifetime guarantee. If something happens in the next five or six years when you wear it and you break it, we fix it for you.    Sharon: That's good to know. Is most of your jewelry made here in the States? Where is it made?   Joe: Everything is made in the States. However, I do have a lot of suppliers all over the world in terms of the craftsmanship or some stones. Some type of the necklace might be made in Thailand, might be made in Italy, because in its culture, they might be very, very good in some particular process. Makers in Thailand are very good at finding all those gemstones, the collections for the fine jewelry. In Italy, they are really good with the way they work with metal. So, I have a supplier who has expertise in different techniques, but everything is completed and finished in the U.S.A.    Sharon: Let's say they're good at something in Italy. At the same time, do you go around to different stores and show them their things and hope they'll buy something?   Joe: No, usually I view them as the artisan in his country. I just use them as my suppliers. There are some companies where I don't even know what the finished product will be. Let's say it's the pearls you got, right? Those are actually made from seashells. They blend them and then put them together as a big, look-alike, gigantic pearl. My source for that pearl is South Korea; however, they don't know what I'm going to do with the pearl. I'm the one who puts together the necklace and everything. Therefore, they will not know what the finished product would be, and I don't need to go to South Korea and see who is also using it.    Just by myself with my private clients, I almost don't have enough jewelry to sell to them. Mostly we used to do trade shows, and most of the clients who went to my trade show were museums. We're in museums in London and San Francisco. We are in over 34 art museums all over the world that carry my line, and they've been selling very well. The Metropolitan Opera sells very well with my jewelry. Those are the people and the buyers who will meet me two times a year at the trade shows.    I'm very picky about who's going to carry my line. I'm very picky about my clients as well. I'd rather have a good amount of clients, but they're quality clients. Then we can create a friendship, a relationship. Life is too short, and I like to work in that way so I can be happy and enjoy their company and they can enjoy my company. We can actually have interaction towards my art, and I think that will make everything fun and loveable.   Sharon: If I go to one of the museums in London, and I want to buy a necklace but there isn't one there, is that it?   Joe: That's it, yeah. You will be the only one who has it. That's why having my clothes in your closet, you see they have my signature on it. People really collect them. In the past, we had some collections that have art pieces for design, but the maximum is the other pieces. Some pieces have eight to 10, but that's it. That's the maximum. This way, everything is one of a kind. There's only one of these necklaces in the world, and you will be the only person who has it. I love it that way.   Sharon: I like to know that, but I'm surprised to hear that. Do you have certain craftspeople who work for you?   Joe: Yes, I do have a good team of people who work for me, and I help them as they are single mothers. I give them projects so they can work at home. We meet and I teach them how to do it, and then they can just submit their work that we are planning to do. My things are not mass-produced; they are not machine-made.    That's why I say it's important that these pieces carry the energy of me, who designed them or made them, and the craftsmanship of the people. This is not talking about the stone itself. That also has its own particular energy. It's the cosmic, pure energy to be a great piece of art. We can actually feel that. People can sense that energy. That's why it's important to give the right piece to the right person because then the magic happens. It's going to make you feel completely different. It's like you find the best version of yourself. I do believe everyone deserves that throughout every life.    Sharon: That's good to hear. I'll think about that when I wear it. I haven't worn it yet. You said you named the company after inspiration from your mother, or you attribute it to your mother. Where do you get your other inspiration from?   Joe: I have inspiration all over. I don't have a program of design. My challenge is to start designing. I get inspired so easily. I could see the dirt on the floor and think about the textures, and I have to write it down or schedule it so quickly. One of your questions is do I find the stone first and then design it, or do I design it first and then find the stone? It happens both ways. Sometimes I find a stone that is very interesting and see the picture of the design in my head right away. Sometimes I have the design in my head, and then I find some stone that will suit that design.    For me, inspiration comes from everything. I think you can use this with every perspective of your life if you persevere. You can get inspired from everything around you. You can look at the sky; you can look at nature; you can look at what people wear. I've gotten inspired many, many times with the way the homeless dress in L.A. We have the homeless, and sometimes they dress very funky, very inspiring, and I get inspired from that. You can go to museums or look at things around you. If you are creative and you can actually manage that in your head, you can get inspired very easily.    I get inspired getting things I haven't made yet. Actually, I have to screen that and think about how I'm going to put it into the collection. What would suit what clients if this piece is coming out? Who is the client I would think of? That's how I use my knowledge of advertising, to screen those designs and see what the best time to launch that collection is, who the best people to show this to are. But prior to getting inspired, it's so easy for me. It's not a big thing at all.   Sharon: How do you turn it off? Are you going to bed at night?   Joe: Yeah, that's very challenging. That's what my problem is. My friend was helping me try to find something that pulls my attention. I really can't turn it off because I enjoy it so much. For me, it's like playing. Sometimes I really need to get away and watch something completely different or go work out or travel so I can turn it off. If not, I would always get excited, like, “Think about this. It's going to be so cool.” For me to keep it balanced at this point, my age is very important.   Sharon: Have you thought about or have you had men ask you to design something?   Joe: Yeah, I have a lot of new clients that come in both sexes. A lot of them are gentlemen who are very busy, and they know their wives would love my jewelry. I have a big group of those clients. I always choose the gift for their wives for their anniversary. I have a group of gentlemen who also like big and bold jewelry. Once in a while, I do make some men's jewelry as well. I have clients who love buying men's cuffs and men's rings from me. I do have those kinds that buy for themselves as well. So, it's two groups of gentlemen buying. They are very fun, and so far, I have never failed them in choosing the right piece for their wives or their girlfriends. They're all very good about this.   Sharon: Do they call you or your assistant and say, “It's my wife's birthday”?   Joe: Yes. They call me directly or they call my assistant, or they will make an appointment. For my clients, I only take private appointments. If I'm in town in L.A. or even in New York, people will come to New York and everyone will make an appointment. I have a client who is the first person to make an appointment when I go to New York. She wanted to be the first person to pick everything. I usually have a private appointment for those clients, for some family close to their anniversary or their birthday or a special occasion. They come to an assistant or they call me, and then we'll make an appointment. We'll discuss the design I already have and anything particular or special they want to have in the piece for that certain occasion, and we make it happen.    I have to say that not only do we do jewelry, but we also do a presentation for them. We wrap them. We have the flowers in the box. If their wife collects teddy bears, we have little teddy bears on the card. The gentleman just needs to sign. They appreciate it so much because my team and I prioritize not just the beauty of the creations, but also the feeling, the energy, the complement of the relationship we have with our clients as well. For me, that's the part I enjoy the most: meeting my clients and having my clients in my life. I want to continue doing that. It's not always the product or the jewelry itself. The experience of it is also important for us.    Sharon: Does a person ever come to you and say, “I don't really know what I want,” and you can look at them and see something in them?   Joe: Many times, they say, “Is there something you think will be me?” Many times, I introduce new colors into their lives. I have clients who only wear black all the time, and I introduce a new way for them. I say, “You have to do this because it will make you have much more fun in your life.” I had one client who has now become one of my collectors. I said, “In three months, I'll take it back. You can exchange it to be any black piece you want.” Now she has new colors in her life. Now, she buys red shoes. Now, she wears some lipstick. Introducing new colors in people's lives is something I really like to do because people have to have fun. Colors are made to go. They give you so much fun, such a sensibility in your life, and you should enjoy it. It's my honor to be able to do that and help them have more fun because colors are designed in their lives. Sometimes they just don't know they could pull that off.    At the same time, if they find something I don't think would suit them, I would be honest with them. I would say, “Don't get this because I don't think it will actually complement your skin very well. If you have it, return it.” I would be honest with them. I want to choose the piece that would help them make the neck look longer, make them look taller, complement their eye color. That is my job, to suggest those to them.   Sharon: Do you have people who bring you their designs? Do your craftspeople ever bring you their designs and say—   Joe: No.   Sharon: “I think this is a good design”? Never?   Joe: Never, because people know I want to custom make for clients. I only design what I design. I have only made what I design. So, no, I never have anyone that brings in their design and asks me to do it, because for that, they don't need me. They can go to any jewelry production or jewelry company, and they'll have them do the work. It's easy. They come to me because they want my signature and my design and to wear them.    Sharon: Has anybody ever said to you, “I want this piece incorporated in what you're making. I want this flower. I want you to put this in the necklace somehow”?   Joe: So far, for the past 16 years, I never had that before, maybe because of my brand and my personality. My work speaks very strongly of who we are. People perceive them very quickly and get very quickly that we are one of a kind; we are special; we are unique. People respect that. They know if they ask us to put something, they will usually come in to find my creation that will suit them or ask me to help them find my creation that will suit them. I think that would be the best answer to that.   Sharon: If somebody wants to get ahold of you, what's the best way?   Joe: The best way to get ahold of me is through social media on Instagram, @VilaiwanJewelry. The website is Vilaiwan.com. People often send me messages through Instagram or email me at Joe@Vilaiwan.com. That's the best way you can reach me. Mostly I will post my answer back myself because I like to be involved. I like to know, and I'm excited to know, who is interested in my jewelry because my jewelry is not for everyone. I'm fine with that. I like to look at it that way. If it's not for everyone, then I want to know there is that one person who thinks they will potentially be my client. I would love to know them. So, I always respond to those messages myself.   Sharon: You mentioned, for instance, that in fall you have dark colors and the old color scheme. What if somebody says, “This spring, the colors are”—I don't know what they are, but maybe melon and bright green. Do you have colors that go? Are you influenced by the colors that are popular?   Joe: I'm not influenced by colors so much. The people that know me know I always put together very interesting colors, very unique color schemes. I love to put very dark green with salmon pink, or I would put orange and purple together. That's my signature, too, the combination of colors that people cannot think of, or the colors that people did not know could create a harmony that's interesting. It doesn't have to be a popular color. It can be any colors at any time. If I get inspired and feel like it will be interesting, I will put it together with the design I have, and it will be a fantastic piece. I don't know how to explain it, but if you go through the pictures or see my Instagram, you will see a lot of those pieces I have posted are very unique colors. There are a lot of colors that not a lot of people would think to put together, and those mostly sell very quickly.   Sharon: I was going to ask you, is there anything left? If somebody sees something on Instagram or Facebook and they say, “Joe, I like that one and I really want to get it,” is that left?   Joe: The best is to say, “I want it definitely,” and then they're presented right away. I will put what's sold in the books. I will post “sold” in dollars, and many times, people say, “Well, can you make it again?” and I say, “No, we cannot make it.” A lot of times, it's only one piece of that scale of ruby that I find. So, they are unique. That's why we don't even have enough pieces to supply. With only my private clients, I was still swamped with it. I appreciate that, and I'm really grateful for those clients and the support they have for me through our pieces for 15, 16 years.   Sharon: Wow! I didn't realize it was that long.    Joe: Yes.   Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us today and for telling us. I'm glad things are going so well.   Joe: Thank you, Sharon. Thank you so much for having me. It was great meeting you at the Beverly Hills Art Show. We'll be there again in October, and you will see how completely different it is. Everything you saw at the Beverly Hills Art Show that day is ours. It will be completely new collections that you will see. I'm looking forward to it.   Sharon: So am I. Thank you very much.   Joe: I had so much fun talking to you and your friends. I like people that enjoy life and appreciate art. I appreciate things that are very similar. I think that's what makes it fun, right?   Sharon: That's right. Thank you so much.   Joe: Thank you very much.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Joe's family history in the Thai diamond trade influences his business today How Joe generates publicity for his brand without a large PR budget Why Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry focuses on selling one-of-a-kind pieces to select clients How to wear bold, colorful jewelry without getting lost Why fine jewelry doesn't have to be limited to precious metals and gemstones   About Joe Vilaiwan (Polthakorn Viboonviriyawong) Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry is the work of creative artist and designer Joe Polthakorn Viboonviriyawong, a second-generation jeweler. In his native Thailand, Joe grew up in his family's diamond jewelry business and developed an instinct for identifying quality stones and metals. A natural-born artist, Joe began designing jewelry at age 14, when he created avant grade diamond rings that hinted at his future career.   As an independent visual concept designer for major retailers in the United States and Asia, he quickly became known for his bold, eye-catching store window installations. In 2005 in Los Angeles, Joe returned to his roots and launched Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry, which caught the attention of store buyers who recognized his unique blend of art and ornamentation. His meticulously hand-crafted, statement necklaces, cuffs and earrings became top sellers in museum stores and exclusive boutiques as stylish women in international fashion capitals began wearing and collecting his glamorous wearable arts.   A favorite among fashion editors, stylists and celebrities, Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry has been featured in magazines, on runways and in film. Joe recently collaborated with Disney Consumer Products to create the couture jewelry collection for the major motion picture, “Oz the Great and Powerful.”   Additional Resources: Joe's Website Joe's Instagram Joe's Facebook Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript:   Although Joe Vilaiwan is known for creating large, over-the-top jewelry, he insists that anyone can wear his work—and almost everyone has, from Joan Rivers to Iris Apfel. As the founder of Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry, he has made it his mission to find the perfect piece for every client who connects with his work. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he gets inspired; how he sources the unique materials he uses in his jewelry; and how he has gotten A-list press for his brand without a large budget. Read the episode transcript here.     Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    I was walking through the Beverly Hills Art Show this year. I always said I wanted to go, and this year I finally went. I went in the hopes of finding some unusual jewelry, and that's exactly what I found. If you know me, you know I like statement jewelry, and that's exactly what Joe Vilaiwan's jewelry is. He is the founder and creator of Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry.    If you know me, you know exactly what I like. I couldn't decide what to choose: the over-the-top necklace or the more recognizable pearls with diamonds set in. The pearls were larger than anything you would see in real life, so you immediately knew they weren't real and presumed the diamonds weren't real, either. What to choose, the white pearls or the black pearls? They're both fabulous. Clearly, I wasn't the only one who had to have this jewelry, as the booth was swarming with people. Today, Joe will tell us how he started his business and who his clients are. Also, we'll hear how he comes up with his ideas. Joe, welcome to the program.   Joe: Thank you for having me. My name is Joe Vilaiwan. I'm the designer and owner of Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry.   Sharon: Fine jewelry. I didn't even try and tell you what his real name is because I don't think I could spell it, and I don't know if I could say it.    Joe: Joe is my nickname in Thai because everybody in Thailand has a long, complicated last name. So, it's a last name. Everyone has a big name, so my parents also called me Joe. My friends call me Joe as well. Vilaiwan is actually my mother's name, which means beauty in Thai. I use that to honor my mother, who is my inspiration and who taught me about business. My family had a diamond business in Thailand. I grew up with it, and that's how I learned and got inspired and knew about jewelry.   Sharon: That's really nice, that it means a nice thing in Thai and that you wanted to honor your mother.    Joe: Yes.   Sharon: Did you work for somebody else first or did you come here?   Joe: For the jewelry business, I have to say the only person I worked for is my mom and the other was a cat. When I was 12, I started helping my mom in her jewelry business, in her diamond business. I helped her when I was very young. However, I got my bachelor's degree in advertising. Then I came to the U.S. to continue my education and my master's degree, which is in interior design and research communications. I took my shot at being an interior designer and concept designer for many, many years and got really successful in that field.    I wanted to have something on my own before I'm 30, so I decided that jewelry would be the best business for me. However, growing up, I'm learning about myself. I tend to notice that I've been drawn to big pieces or very bold and strong concepts of art and commercial arts. Therefore, I wanted to do more handmade, fine costume jewelry because I cannot use gems in big pieces of mine. That's how my business started. Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry was started in 2002. So, it's over 15, 16 years ago.    Sharon: I saw that you have done a lot of work, and you've gotten a lot of press for your designs. I can see why that would be of interest to you.    Joe: I'm very, very blessed with all of the praise and everything, considering that I don't have, or I've never hired, a PR firm. All the praise I got, it just went directly to me, with the project we did for Disney for the movie “Oz the Great and Powerful,” with all those fine fashion shows, fashion weeks, the praise all over the world, all the museums that carry my creations. I'm very blessed that I met people who actually appreciate my creations and believe in my talents.    Sharon: Would you say you decided to go after this PR, even though you didn't have a PR firm?   Joe: Yes, I did not have a PR firm. I did not hire a PR firm. I come from an advertising background, so I have a definite perspective about this even though I don't have it. That's why I say I'm very fortunate that those people and those players try to find me and contact me directly. That's how I got all that praise and all those awards.    Sharon: Would you say that most of your jewelry or all of your jewelry is statement jewelry? I thought you had a great definition of it.   Joe: People now come to me, and I will not have simple little things or small, little diamonds or small, little pieces. People come to me because they want unique. Either size, big or small, that I create—the smallest one was too big for some people, but they come to me because it's very special. It's one of a kind. It's the sole concept itself. That's what I'm known for.   Sharon: If I had a special dress and I wanted you to design something for it, but I didn't know who you were or I didn't know anything about your jewelry, what would I do?   Joe: Usually people find me. I have to say I'm very blessed again, because the best thing that happened to my business is actually my clients. Mostly the clients recommend other clients. Good people will bring good people to your life. I have this empire of great clients because my clients recommend clients. When I say my clients, they're not just saying it to be nice, but they seriously make appointments for their friends or make sure their friends make appointments to come see me. Sometimes they even set their appointment so they can make sure that me and the friends come together, and that those friends get in to see my creations. All my creations are one of a kind, so they run out very quickly. They sell out very quickly, so they're always waiting for the new pieces that will come out and try to get them before anyone else. Basically, clients recommend clients.    I also have social media. Do I want jewelry on my Instagram? Do I want fine jewelry on Facebook? People also can find me on those. The reason I don't carry in department stores is because, again, it's one of a kind, so they will run out quickly. I cannot go into the retail system. Also, I want my clients to be special, to be the only person who has the piece. When she wears that piece of jewelry to a particular event, she will be the only one. She would definitely be the star. I wanted to keep that spiritually and to be the lady of my life.    Usually, I never have a client who actually brings me a dress and tells me to design something for that dress. Mostly, they get the jewelry and find the dress to work around my jewelry. If they have the dress and they want to wear that dress particularly, they will come and choose the pieces they already created and I already have. I will help them find the right pieces. I have never done anything custom for a particular dress before. I actually find something I already have, that I already created, and is suited.    So far, for the past 16 years, we've been a success. There's actually an interesting story. Some of my clients who always wear big designer brands—you can name it from the top of the world. She was going to an event. One time, she bought this necklace from me. This necklace was very over the top, and she said she saw my fashion show in August. That one was in Palm Springs. It's called El Paseo Fashion Week. I had a silver and black dress, but it's a very sweet kind of dress, and she asked me, “Who's the designer?” She wanted to get one and buy that dress with my necklace.    So, I sent her the recent necklace she bought with that dress in her size. I did not tell her who the designer was, and she wore it. She brought so much attention, so much praise about it. Finally, she asked me, “Who's the designer?” and I told her that the dress was only $19. I actually bought it in downtown L.A. and it could be worn in five ways. That was a shock to her. Basically, if you have my jewelry, you can honor it with other designer dresses, but you don't have to be caught up to wear something expensive or some very well-known brand. You can buy something very basic and simple. The first thing seen is not my jewelry; it's you. My jewelry is just supporting that dress to help you shine your own light at that particular event.    At the same time, you do not need to wear it so dressy for a night event. Mostly all my pieces are practical because they are handmade. You can actually wear them casually with a T-shirt and jeans, and you will look like a rock star as well. That's why my clients love my jewelry; because they can wear it casually or dressy. Also, that's why they love to collect them. Mostly all my clients are collectors, and they are my clients for at least five or six years. I have many of them that have been my clients for over 10 years. When I say over 10 years, it doesn't mean they buy one time and then in the next 10 years another time. No, they've consistently been buying almost every month or every few weeks for the past 12 years or 13 years because they collect them.   Sharon: Do you have a seasonality? Do they come to you because they know it's the fall season and you're going to have new stuff? Is it something different for Christmas?   Joe: Interestingly, my jewelry doesn't have any season. I don't have a season where this piece will do well, then this piece or something like that. I know for sure that my vacation is during the holidays. Before the holidays, yes, it's busy, but during the holidays, everyone is doing our own thing. I also visit my family, and then it will get picked up again after the holidays in January or February.   I don't necessarily think the world now relies on, “Oh, it's spring and summer. You need to wear bright colors, pastel colors. In fall, you need to wear darker colors and something sparkling.” I don't think those kinds of rules are any expectation anymore. Sometime in summer, I have something in white or something that really sparkles, too. People wear whatever they want to wear, whatever can make them feel good about themselves, whatever they are actually comfortable with.    So, my answer is my jewelry is not seasonal. People will choose and always love what I create. They will wear what they want to wear in any time of their lives, in any season they want. They enjoy it because the most important thing is that when you put the right piece of jewelry on the right person, the combination of the energy of the person itself and the energy of the creator, the designer, the craftsmanship and everything, everything will be in harmony. That makes you grow. The aura comes, and it will make you feel good about yourself.    The emphasis is on that because even though it's a big and bold piece of jewelry, I have to finish everything on the real form. It needs to blend in well with the ongoing structure. It's not going to be something that's big and bold and just attached to your body. It needs to blend in and be a part of your body, so you feel like this is a part of you. It will help complement your energy and your own ability, and that is why it sparkles. The smile will be more beautiful, and you'll become your own self and the best version of you. I think that's my job as a designer.   Sharon: So, people bring their dresses to you, and you make the jewelry. That's what you're saying?   Joe: No, what I'm saying is that mostly they will buy my jewelry and find a dress themselves. Or, if they bring one in, they will find what I already have.   Sharon: I see.   Joe: I will help them in that process, to help them find what I already have that will complement the dress they bring. Does that make sense?   Sharon: Yes, now I understand. Do you find that some people say, “Oh, that's too much. I could never wear that. It's too big. It's too over the top”?   Joe: Yes, I've actually experienced that many times. What I've learned from my experience is they will say that the first time, but once it's on them, once they try them on, everything's just fine. Then they will say, “I could not wear anything small anymore. I want something that's big and bold.” They know it's not the size; it's the personality. That's what is actually more important. If you have a personality that's big enough, that's great enough, that's fine enough to carry my jewelry, whatever size that is, that's what you will find.   I have a client that's very petite and only wears big jewelry. Another client used to be one of my collectors as well before she passed away. She was very petite. Most people have necks that are 15 to 16 inches, but everything she bought, I had to customize the neck for her to be 14 ½. She's very small, very petite, and she only wears big, huge pieces of mine. Another collector only wears huge pieces of mine. Sometimes she will put two or three of my necklaces together on top of each other. It's not about the size, but yes, for people who've never known me, who have not seen my art jewelry before, sometimes the reaction is, “Oh my God, that is so big. That is so sparkling.” I always request them to try them on because you will see that sparkle in the eye. You will know that's the right piece on the right person.   Sharon: Do you ever watch the red carpet, the award shows, and see your jewelry on them?   Joe: Yes. In the business, you basically have to pay for PR for those actors and actresses to wear it. I don't have a lot of PR money. Every season they contact me so I can have my pieces worn on those red carpets, but I don't believe in that. My pieces are doing very well. All my lovely clients, if they want my pieces, have to pay for them. I never give my pieces out for free. Every single client of mine pays the same price as my regular clients. All my clients are the same, as I always say, and I treat them the same. If you love it, you need to respect the artist and you have to possess them. I don't believe in paying someone to wear your jewelry on the red carpet. I don't believe in that. Therefore, when I watch it, it's mostly the brands that can afford it: Chopard, Cartier, expensive, real diamonds or pieces they have the budget to put in.    For me, it's a little bit boring. Once in a while, I will see some pieces that are strong and interesting, but mostly it's not. I have a lot of clients who go to red carpets, not as an actress, but they go there as a producer, their lawyer, their agent and other things. They will buy my jewelry, and they bring more attention from all those stars. I don't attach to those kinds of things, that it needs to be famous on a red carpet. For me, all my clients are the same, whether you are a famous actress or you're a housekeeper. Everyone is treated the same.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.  

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Arnoldsche collaborates with authors to create an effective design for each book What young artists should know before trying to publish a book How Dirk keeps tabs on trends and new developments in jewelry and decorative arts How Arnoldsche selects the right markets and languages for its books Why the art book market has changed dramatically over the last 10 years, and how Arnoldsche has adapted   About Dirk Allgaier: Since April 2015, Dirk Allgaier has headed Arnoldsche Art Publishers, an internationally active publisher of art books that offers a unique list of titles in the fields of fine art, applied art and design. With great expertise, sheer hard work and a passion for his profession, he and his team ensure that books from Arnoldsche become what they are: high-quality, individually designed publications and book objects that transport the broad range of creative endeavor in all its diversity across the globe.   Additional Resources: Arnoldsche Art Publishing's Website Arnoldsche Art Publisher's Instgram Arnoldsche Art Publisher's X/Twitter   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript:    No other publishing house in the world has published as many books on jewelry, ceramics and other applied arts as Arnoldsche Art Publishing. Led by Dirk Allgaier, Arnoldsche is the go-to source for anyone who wants to learn more about the decorative and applied arts, the people who create them, and the museums that exhibit them. Dirk joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he selects the 10 to 15 books Arnoldsche publishes each year; how he works with artists to create a beautiful and informative book; and why a language barrier doesn't always prevent someone from reading an art book. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    My guest is Dirk Allgaier of Arnoldsche Publishing. They're art publishers, and if you have any kind of design library—and that includes jewelry, ceramics, monographs on artists, furniture and more—you no doubt have books that have been published by Arnoldsche. Welcome back.    Do you have people come that you haven't heard of, but they have great expertise? Maybe they're a professor or somebody else that has a lot of expertise in their area?   Dirk: I know our field quite well; it's a small field, but it happens that people approach me and send me a suggestion for a new book project and I don't know the artist. There's always something new to discover. I say every book we are doing, not only in jewelry but also in ceramics or in wooden art, in metalware, in furniture, in textile, in glass, it opens a new window. It gives me a new prospectus to see new things which I did not know before. This is a reason why I like my job. I love my job very much.    It happened last year at the Art Jewelry Forum. Susan Cummins suggested to me to publish a book about Keith Lewis, the American jewelry artist. I really did not know his work. I read the manuscript in the evening when I was home. I was reading; I looked at the images. I was thinking, “That's fantastic, what he did. It was the 1980s. He was so progressive. He was so political in that time, so important. Today what is he doing?” That was totally new, and now we are publishing his book. It's designed. We are now doing the images. In about four weeks, we go to press for that book. So, it happens on the jewelry scene that artists are suggested to me, are recommended, which I do not know. But most artists, of course, I know more or less their work.   Sharon: Susan Cummins had brought you several books before this Keith Lewis one. Does that reflect? Did you take that into account when you were deciding?   Dirk: We met each other and decided to cooperate, to collaborate, because she has fantastic topics in jewelry. It's very political, the book about Laurie Hall. It's about Northwest American jewelry. We say in Germany it's narrative jewelry. This kind of jewelry was not so well-known in Europe.    We have a very strong distribution. We sell our books worldwide, so we bring this topic through the book to an international audience, to the international market. It's important for this American artist to be represented through the book internationally, so it's a win/win situation. Susan has wonderful topics for publications. We produce the books and distribute them internationally. It's a very good joint venture.   Sharon: You distribute them. I haven't seen them in the States, I don't think, except the Art Jewelry Forum books. I'm seeing those, but that's it.   Dirk: We have a distributor in the United States. It's ACC Art Books. Every book is stored in the United States in a warehouse, and we have representatives in the United States. You can go to a bookshop and order our books, but the books are such special books that they are only in special bookstores, mainly in museum bookstores, like the Metropolitan Museum or the Museum of Modern Art in New York.    The bigger bookstores and art bookstores have our books, but everything changed in the last 10, 15, 20 years. There are not so many bookshops left, so mainly art books are available online. This is an online trade. If you did a book about Sam Kramer, if you Google Kramer, you find immediately that you have to buy our book either on Amazon or on Book DE or on Instagram. You can order the book online. It's really a change to selling books. 60% to 70% of books we are selling now online, not through bookstores.   Sharon: Does somebody come to the website and see a book they want?   Dirk: We have a web shop. You can order the book from our web shop. That's also possible. Wherever you are living, you can order it. For example, when you are living in the United States, you can order it from the web shop, and our American partner or American distributor will send you the book within a short timeframe. Within three or four days, you will have the book.   Sharon: Now, some of your books are only in German.   Dirk: Yes.   Sharon: Since I don't speak a word of German, what do you do? Do you have some in English and some in German and some half and half?    Dirk: It depends on the topic. We publish in many languages, but the main language is English. That's definitive. English is very important, but there's also German if it doesn't have a major audience. Then it's also a question of money or financing. There are translation codes, which are very extensive. You have to make an extra typesetting. You need more pages. You need more printing. Then we say, “O.K., we leave it only in German. We know we would not sell many copies in the English-speaking market, so we leave it in German.” But mainly the books are in English.  A few are only in German, but if the artist comes from another country, we also publish books, for example, in the French language, in Italian, in the Norwegian language, also in Estonian, in Catalan. We have two books in the Hebrew language, in Arabic and even in the Japanese language. It depends where the artist is living and in which country the topic is, and then we publish in different languages.   Sharon: Wow! The jewelry you mentioned, and in looking at your books, it's so contemporary. Is that what you look for? It's really unusual.   Dirk: Yeah, because for us, jewelry is art. There is no difference. It's studio jewelry. It's art jewelry. It's like an art book. We have to publish jewelry books like an art book, and that's very important. The style of the jewelry, its artistic value, is represented in the book, so the quality must be very high. You must see the high value of jewelry. You must see it in the book. That's why it's important for us.    Sharon: That's interesting. So, you wouldn't publish a book on “normal” jewelry.   Dirk: We do books about higher-range costume jewelry because they're fantastic topics. In the 1920s in Germany, in the Art Deco period, there were companies who did articles of fantastic jewelry. Next year, we are planning a book about the New York jewelry designer Marcus & Co. So, we have books about art and costume jewelry, but not about the regular jewelry you can buy in a regular shop. This is not our interest.   Sharon: Have you ever started a book and then said, “Forget it. This is too complicated,” or “There's not a market”?   Dirk: No, normally we don't. If I start something, I bring it to an end. That's very important for me, even if it's very, very difficult. Usually, once we start on a book, we finish it. That's very important. I remember a book we did 20 years ago. It was about an Italian topic, and everybody told me at the time, “You would never publish that book. You would never finalize it,” but we did it. That made me very proud; that we did this book finally. Every book we've started, we finished the book.    For me, it's important to publish a book together with an artist or with a partner—the person is a partner for me—with a lot of mutual respect and to achieve a result which satisfies everybody: the publishing house, the artist, the museum. If we work together for three, four, five months, it's like a partnership. You work very intensively together with an artist, and the results just have to be right. That's very important. You put the book together; you celebrate; you're happy. That's how it should be, and that's how it is, usually.   Sharon: Do you go to book trade shows where they have new books? I don't know if they still have them. They used to have book trade shows.   Dirk: They had it some years ago, but there's no big importance anymore. There are book fairs in Frankfurt, so we go to Frankfurt. 20 years ago, we went to the Chicago Book Fair, to the American Book Fair, to London, but we don't do that so much. We have our books at the Schmuck in Munich, of course. You can buy them at the Schmuck Fair, or if there are special ceramic fairs, special jewelry events. We also have bookshops that go there. They have their stands there, and there are books at these events.   Sharon: I was looking online at your books. I noticed there were books about Babetto and I was surprised. None of it looked at the jewelry; they looked at the furniture and the drawings and things like that. What made you decide to do a second book on Babetto?   Dirk: The first book—I think it was the year 2009, 2010. Pinakothek der Moderne is a big museum, and every year during Schmuck, they have a big exhibition on the roof of the rotunda. Every year they show a different artist. They showed Thomas Gentille, for example, Anton Frühauf, Hermann Jünger, Peter Skubic. 15 years ago, they showed Giampaolo Babetto. We did a small but very special book on Giampaolo Babetto on the occasion of the exhibition. That was 2008, 2009.    Last year, Giampaolo asked, “Can you come to Italy? Can we meet? I'm planning a new book.” He planned a complete oeuvre catalogue of all his work in jewelry, in metalware, in architectural design, in religious pieces. So, we did an oeuvre catalogue. All his work from the beginning until 2022 is published in the book. Those are two different approaches. One was very personal for the exhibition, and this last was the catalogue about his work. It's a total Babetto.    Sharon: That's interesting. There didn't seem to be that much jewelry in the Babetto books. It was more his other designs, his other things.   Dirk: One half of the book is jewelry. The other half is his metalworks, his furniture designs and the other things.   Sharon: For those who don't know what Schmuck is, do you want to describe it?   Dirk: It's an annual event in Munich on the occasion of the International Art and Crafts Fair. It's an international trade fair for crafts and design. In 1959, it was founded by Herbert Hoffmann. It was a competition where contemporary jewelry was presented in a small part of the fair. That was the beginning over 60 years ago. It was a very small event, but every year it became bigger.    Now it's still the Herbert Hoffmann Award, the Herbert Hoffmann Exhibition, but throughout the whole city, there are about 50, 60 galleries showing jewelry in contemporary galleries. They rent a space, they show jewelry, and they come from all over the world. It's a huge event which lasts five days. You can see a lot of jewelry. You have gallery exhibitions. You have some museums that show jewelry. The Mesa is a big exhibition. The whole world of contemporary art jewelry, of studio jewelry, is in Munich.   Sharon: I've only been a couple of times, but I didn't know Herbert Hoffmann was so integral in it. I know they have a prize.   Dirk: Yeah, the award. You can go online. You can look up the Herbert Hoffmann Award and see the prize winners from 1959. You read these names, and it's really the top of the top of international jewelry artists. It's very interesting to read the award winners of the Herbert Hoffmann Prize.    Sharon: Wow! I didn't know it was so old, either. These people, the authors who want to write a book or a museum, do they have the person in mind who's going to put the book together? Do they have the illustrator? Do they have the photographer in mind, or do they let you decide?   Dirk: It's important if you write a book to have photographs available. Every artist has an archive of photographs, and every artist's archive is different. Some have a very accurate archive with good photographs, and they know exactly what goes into the books. Some other artists have only images or older slides. Here we can be of help. We can make sense of old photographs. Usually, an artist has photographs for the book and they know which pieces should go into the book, but often I sit together with artists and we go through the materials, through the pieces. For an artist, it's often difficult to make a decision, to take this piece or that piece. Then we sit together and say, “It's that piece and not that.”    Photography is very important. An artist can have a designer, or we have the designer and we do image editing for the images. We do printing, and then we include the book in our book program, into our publishing list. Then we send the book worldwide on our list. This is the way.    Sharon: What country are most of your sales in? I don't know if it's Germany or Switzerland or Austria.    Dirk: We are selling one-third of our books in German-speaking countries, in Germany, Switzerland and Austria. They still have a strong market for art books and for jewelry books. Two-thirds we sell outside the German-speaking countries. England is a very important market. Scandinavia buys our books, and, of course, the American market is important for us. We sell books in China. We have one representative and he's Chinese. There are big distributors in China, so we are sending books to the distributors, and they are selling the books to the individual bookstores and individual customers in the country. Japan is very difficult to sell books. South Korea is an important market for us. We sell some books in Australia as well, but I can say Germany, England, America and China. These are very important markets for us.   Sharon: If somebody doesn't speak the language—I'm thinking of myself—do you just look at the pictures? What do you do?   Dirk: There's a society of booksellers here in Germany. They made a test with people. They asked a thousand people, “What are you doing when you buy a book with images such as an art book? What are you doing with the book? Do you read it? Do you look at images?” They found out that only 10% of the book buyers are reading a book. 90% are looking at the images and reading here and there a little bit, but almost nobody is reading a book from the beginning to the end.   Sharon: I don't feel so bad because I look at the pictures. What languages have you thought about? Have you thought about French? Are there other languages you've thought about putting your books in?   Dirk: I think English and German are the most important. In France, it's difficult to sell books because the market is very small. When we have a French artist, of course we publish the book in French, but if the artist is not French, we don't publish a book in the French language. It's a small market. The book trade market is quite difficult, so the artist should be French-speaking, and then you publish it in French.    I would like to publish a book in the Chinese language, in Mandarin, because we didn't do this yet. We have a book about New Zealand artists coming in two years, and it would be wonderful to have at least one essay in Māori, in the native language of New Zealand. That would really be a task for me to do, but it would appreciate the First Nations people of the country.    Sharon: Any other plans besides other languages? What are your plans besides the books in production? What else would you like to do?   Dirk: Generally, for me it's important that every half-year we have a catalogue. All our new books are featured in a catalogue which we send out every half-year. So, for me, the most important challenge is to have a good program to find newer catalogues which I present to people every half-year. This is the most important.    And to find a place for our special books, because it's not easy to find places. It's a niche program to find readers, to find people who buy the books and to find new people who did not know anything about artistic jewelry or studio jewelry. So, to find new people to bring a fascination for art into the world and to find new friends, new people who really love our work. That's the most important thing for me.   Sharon: I hope that you do. Thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.   Dirk: Thank you very much, Sharon. Thank you.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Arnoldsche collaborates with authors to create an effective design for each book What young artists should know before trying to publish a book How Dirk keeps tabs on trends and new developments in jewelry and decorative arts How Arnoldsche selects the right markets and languages for its books Why the art book market has changed dramatically over the last 10 years, and how Arnoldsche has adapted   About Dirk Allgaier: Since April 2015, Dirk Allgaier has headed Arnoldsche Art Publishers, an internationally active publisher of art books that offers a unique list of titles in the fields of fine art, applied art and design. With great expertise, sheer hard work and a passion for his profession, he and his team ensure that books from Arnoldsche become what they are: high-quality, individually designed publications and book objects that transport the broad range of creative endeavor in all its diversity across the globe.   Additional Resources: Arnoldsche Art Publishing's Website Arnoldsche Art Publisher's Instgram Arnoldsche Art Publisher's X/Twitter   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript:    No other publishing house in the world has published as many books on jewelry, ceramics and other applied arts as Arnoldsche Art Publishing. Led by Dirk Allgaier, Arnoldsche is the go-to source for anyone who wants to learn more about the decorative and applied arts, the people who create them, and the museums that exhibit them. Dirk joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he selects the 10 to 15 books Arnoldsche publishes each year; how he works with artists to create a beautiful and informative book; and why a language barrier doesn't always prevent someone from reading an art book. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    My guest is Dirk Allgaier of Arnoldsche Publishing. They're art publishers, and if you have any kind of design library—and that includes jewelry, ceramics, monographs on artists, furniture and more—you no doubt have books that have been published by Arnoldsche. As I was browsing the books online, I kept seeing so many books I have that I didn't know were published by Arnoldsche. For the most part, they are in English and German, and the books are beautifully printed. Dirk will tell us how his path took him to where he is today. Dirk, welcome to the program.   Dirk: Thank you very much, Sharon. Very glad to be here.   Sharon: I'm so glad to have you here. Dirk was just telling me that he has lived in Stuttgart for 30 years, 25 years, a long time. Can you tell us what a publisher does?   Dirk: That's a very good question, Sharon. There's really a lot to it. I tried to explain to you some things, to tell you about some things. Mainly it is my job to see that we put together an attractive book program every six months, every half-year. This is in the field of applied arts, which is our main series of books. It's jewelry, ceramics, textiles, wood and glass, but also the areas of visual design, of the visual arts and design.    I receive many book proposals. I have to check them. I have to calculate them, but I've also got to be active by myself from my side, and I have to talk to artists. I have to meet museum curators. For example, I go to museums, to exhibition openings. I go to Schmuck in Munich, so I'm really traveling a lot. I visit all these places. You also have to be in the field where our publishing areas are, in the field of jewelry, of ceramics. I have to be there; I have to be active.    In parallel, we have to put out used books. We have 10, 15 books always in parallel production, and we have to approach miniatures. The production is supervised by the project managers, but I'm integrated into the processes of each book because I have to know the exact starters of every book project. I must be approachable by the artist, by the museum curator, by the director if any problem arises or if important decisions have to be made.    So, one part is traveling; the other part is production. I'm also responsible for sales and marketing. We have a colleague who does this, but I also have to look at how things can be optimized, how we can sell the books in the best way internationally. Unfortunately, a lot of administrative tasks have to be done. They are also very extensive. Finally, I write some articles for newspapers, for magazines. I give talks. I hold speeches for exhibition openings. I attend meetings, or I'm speaking for podcasts like now. This is also a very interesting and exciting part of my role as a publisher. All in all, there's a lot of work, enough work to work for at least seven days a week.   Sharon: Are you saying that right this minute, there are 10 to 15 books that are being worked on?   Dirk: Yes, that's it. About 10 to 15 books are always in production parallel, in the different steps of production. Either we are actually starting the editing, or we are preparing the design, or we are doing translations, or we are doing the color separations. Today, the Schmuckmuseum of Pforzheim curator was here. We're doing a new book about jewelry and metalwork, and we checked the colors. We checked the color proofs today. We discussed the cover. There are always a lot of book productions in parallel here at Arnoldsche.    Sharon: This is something that is just occurring to me. Do they have input? If they don't like the color, can they say to you they don't like the color?   Dirk: That's very important. I try to show everything to my partner, to the museum or to the artist. I show them the design concept of the book so we are not only designing the book. Before we start with the real design, we make some tests on pages, and we send the pages to the artist or to the museum. We say, “Oh, look, the book could look like these pages. Here is a type that's the kind of like the images. The captions are like that. We have some special colors.” Then the museum can say, “Oh, I like it. Please continue,” or “Oh no, I want to have a different kind.” This is very important for me in the production, to work as closely as possible together with the museum or the author.   Sharon: Can the museum come and say, “I had something totally different in mind”? Can whoever is working on the book say they had something else in mind?   Dirk: Yes, they can say it. Usually, we get a briefing and the museum tells me, “Oh, I want a very modern book,” or “Very conservative,” or “I have some crazy ideas.” But it must fit to the topics; that's very important. We publish books about 18th century arts and crafts, about porcelain from the 18th and 19th centuries. Here's a design that has to be quite conventional, or conservative is a better word. But if we work with a very unusual, contemporary designer, we can be much more provocative and contemporary in the design.   Sharon: How did you come to publishing art and applied design books? Do you have a background in it?   Dirk: Yes, I'll tell you shortly the story of the company. Arnoldsche, our publishing house, was founded in 1985. This is now almost 40 years ago. The founder of the publishing house—he passed away five years ago—his name was Dieter Zühlsdorff. He had previously, back in the 1970s, lived here in Stuttgart. He had a gallery for fine arts, for paintings, but his real passion was not the fine arts; it was ceramics. In the late 70s, early 80s, he closed the gallery and wrote an encyclopedia of ceramic marks. He traveled throughout Europe. There was no email, no websites. Maybe a fax machine was the most modern technical thing. He traveled for five years and wrote the “Ceramic Marks Encyclopedia” on the Art Nouveau and Art Deco period from 1880 to 1930.   When the manuscript was finished, he went in search of a publisher. He didn't plan to found a publishing house, but no publisher wanted to publish his “Ceramic Marks Encyclopedia,” so he was not sure what to do. He sold a painting from his collection to a large bank in Germany. He used this money to print his “Ceramic Marks Encyclopedia,” and that was the beginning of Arnoldsche Art Publishers. That encyclopedia became a best seller in a total of four editions.   The name Arnoldsche comes from his wife at the time. She's living. Her name is Gabriela Arnold; Arnold is her last name. Arnoldsche is still a little bit complicated for English speakers. Here, Arnoldsche sounds much better in German than Zühlsdorff, which was the last name of the founder. That's a Pomeranian name, very complicated. I think the English people would not be able to pronounce that name. So, we decided on Arnoldsche, and in German, we say Verlaganstadt. Verlaganstadt means publishing house. That sounds a little bit old-fashioned, but I like that old-fashioned name. In English we say Arnoldsche Art Publishers.   Dieter Zühlsdorff, he acted very wisely when he founded the company because he realized there were many publishers in the area of fine arts or architecture, but there was no publishing house that explicitly dealt with the applied arts, with jewelry, ceramics, glass and furniture. So, we can say internationally, Arnoldsche is the only publishing house in the world that focuses on jewelry, ceramics, glass and textile, and we realized a lot of publications in that field.    Sharon: Did you have a background in it?   Dirk: I'm a trained archaeologist. I'm not an art historian. I studied archaeology. I made my degree. I like it very much, but artistry has fascinated me from a very young age. When I was a child, I went with my parents to see museums, to meet artists. My parents had a collection of paintings.    When I completed my studies, I did a separate training course to become a publishing house clerk. This training course lasted one year. It included a three-month internship in a publishing house, and you had to take care of this internship by yourself. I had no idea where to apply. I was in Stuttgart, and I had a friend who was a bookseller. She gave me a recommendation. She told me, “Apply to a small art publishing house here in Stuttgart. They make the most beautiful books, and they are just around the corner from the place where you have the training.” She was speaking about Arnoldsche.   So, I went there about 30 years ago, in 1993, and I got the job for a three-month internship at Arnoldsche. It started for three months, and now I'm working for 30 years at Arnoldsche. I'm very grateful to my friend for her recommendation. We still meet regularly even though she now lives in northern Germany. I'm very thankful to her for recommending me. “Go to Arnoldsche, ring the bell and apply for a job.” I did that 30 years ago.   Sharon: Wow! Like you said, you must be approached all the time by people who have ideas and say, “Why don't you do a book on this?” or “I have all this material on that.” How do you decide which books to do?   Dirk: That's always a difficult decision because we receive a lot of proposals for book productions. For one thing—and I think that's very important—the book has to fit in our program. For example, a book about the photography of the Alps or about Renaissance art would not fit well in our program. For us, it's very important to find new topics; in other words, topics that have not been published before. It makes no sense for us to publish a 50s book about Picasso or about Matisse; that's not our interest.   There has to be a market for a book. It has to be saleable. We have to publish books about artists who have worked for many decades in their fields. Also, younger artists come to me. They're in their late 30s or their 40s, and they ask for a book. I often say, “Wait another 10 years. You need a bigger work of art, a mature work, and then you can come back to me and we can think about a book.”    Very important art books on the theme of jewelry are the books about the great masters of jewelry. These are really important publications. Just to name a few, for example, Otto Künzli, the Swiss artist, Bernhard Schobinger, Manfred Bischoff. Last year, we published a book about Joyce Scott, the American artist, and the Israeli artist Deganit Stern Schocken, Therese Hilbert. Here, a large body of work over many decades can be wonderfully presented in a beautiful book form. That's really exciting.    There are publications on collections of contemporary jewelry. This is also very important. These are mainly museum collections. For example, we have published about the jewelry collection of Eva and Peter Herion in Munich, which you can see when you go down to the basement. It's a major publication about the collection of the jewelry museum in Pforzheim, the Schmuckmuseum. We did it in 1998 with the legendary former director, Fritz Falk. There's the GRASSI Museum in Leipzig, a very important museum in East Germany. There's a very traditional collection and there's a collection of jewelry. They started to collect in the 1920s. We did a book about the jewelry collection of Sylvia Seal and of Art and Design in New York also. These collections are very exciting for us. I do not want to forget to mention the legendary publication by Helen Drutt, “Ornament as Art.” It's about her collection, which is now in the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston. People call that book the “orange book” or the “Bible of jewelry books.” I think you know that book.    What's also very important for us are theory books about jewelry. We have a book on the jewelry of Marjan Unger from the Netherlands. She did the book “Jewelry in Context.” These books are very important for students, for example. They are quite affordable in price. They're 15 Euros, so students buy these theory books.   If you come to Arnoldsche, there's finally one topic that is very important because it's the most elementary, because every book can't be one: special books. We are publishing in a niche; it's a real niche, and the quantity of books, the editions, are not so high. Every book needs special financial support, so we ask for financial support from foundations. The potential sales is low compared to the very high cost of distribution. You do not usually recoup the high production cost. So, museums, collectors, foundations themselves make books financially possible in the first place through a corresponding purchased quantity. That is how a book can be realized through financial support; by purchasing books in advance. A special part will be paid by Arnoldsche and for the other part, we look for sponsors or our foundations to financially support it. These are the different things to consider for Arnoldsche book publishing.    Sharon: When you are out and about—let's say you're traveling—do you find exhibits that you didn't know about or things you can approach people about?   Dirk: Yes, I go to exhibition openings. Of course, I go to Schmuck in Munich, a big Schmuck event. I go to Munich, to exhibition openings. I go to Norway, to Switzerland, and I always meet the artists. I also meet authors and they tell me, “Oh, I'm working on a project. I'm working with this artist or with that museum. They are looking for a publisher. Would you mind if I make a contact?”    For me, it's very important to visit these places, to go to openings, to meet curators because we are like a big family. Everybody knows something and people speak with each other. They say, “Here's a project. There is a book. It's planned to be an exhibition. They are looking for a publisher. They are planning a book for next year,” and I say, “O.K., please, if you can make a connection and the person can contact me.” Then we are discussing the possibility of collaboration for the book project.    Sharon: Do they come with photographs or do you say, “I want to photograph this”?   Dirk: For me, it's important to have an exposé, a short summary of the book. What is in the book, what is the sense of the book, whom do I want to reach with the book, who is the audience? And to send me some photographs, some preliminary information to get an idea of how the book will be, what the topic of the book is. That's enough for me, and then we continue our discussion.   Sharon: Do you or your production assistants decide the cover of the book and what it will look like? Who decides?   Dirk: We have freelance designers. We work together, but often artists or jewelers or ceramic artists who are planning a monograph about their work, they bring their own graphic designers with them. That's often fine with me because the collaboration between artist and designer is very intensive, and artists and designers should work together personally as often as possible. Often at Arnoldsche, we are responsible for the design, but always in collaboration with the artist.   We have a graphic designer. We've worked together with her for almost 13 years. She designs many of our books and many artists know her. They come to us. They say, “We're planning a book, but we want to have this designer. We trust this designer.” There are artists who give us the whole material. They give us the photographs and the text, then they make a book and she makes a design. We show it before printing and they say, “Oh, make this little change. Oh, make that little change. Go to the press.” There are other artists who look very carefully, who ask for changes, but every one is absolutely fine for us.    We love to work together with her. She designed the book on Helen Drutt for “Ornament as Art,” the orange book, but she also designed important jewelry monographs; for example, the book on Sam Kramer, a jewelry designer. She did the book about Giampaolo Babetto, about Fritz Maierhofer from Austria, about Georg Dobler or Claus Bury, two famous German designers.    Usually, we say if a graphic designer designs the inside pages of a book, they also have to design the cover. The inside pages and cover have to be in accordance with each other. It should fit to each other. That's very important, to have one designer for the whole book. A designer is also like an artist in a way. You cannot ask an artist to make this part and another artist makes this part. The whole book has to be in the hands of one designer.    Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode: How to know when to walk away from a purchase, and how to trust your intuition when buying Why you should always ask for a detailed receipt, even if it feels awkward Commonly misunderstood phrases dealers may use to confuse buyers How Jeff does due diligence before making a purchase How to navigate the many platforms where you can purchase jewelry today About Jeff Russak Jeff Russak is principal of Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers. Jeff's expertise in antique and 20th century jewelry combined with an uncompromising attitude toward quality, condition, and style directs the acquisition process. His proficiency in signed pieces and hallmarks is especially useful in identifying and dating each piece. In demand as a speaker on antique jewelry at museums and shows, he also volunteers as a guest appraiser for charity. Additional Resources: Website Facebook Instagram Twitter Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript: When it comes to buying jewelry, nothing is more important than trust. That's why Jeff Russak, principal at Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers, won't hesitate to leave a purchase behind if his inner voice tells him something is wrong. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he vets his purchases and the dealers he works with; what red flags buyers should watch out for; and why a receipt is more powerful than you might think. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Jeff Russak, one of the principals of Lawrence Jeffrey. They are estate dealers located in Litchfield, Connecticut. Jeff has had decades of experience buying and selling. He's also extremely knowledgeable about estate jewelry. Welcome back. What are the mistakes you see people make, whether in the receipt, in the returns or not asking the right questions? What are the mistakes you see? Jeff: The mistakes I see boil down to trusting the wrong person. There you are, and they're showing you a five-carat ruby. It's fire-engine red and pretty clear. It's in a nice ring, and it's $12,000 to $14,000. I can think of a half dozen booths I've seen at shows that had jewelry like this. Well, it's a good deal, and they're going to tell you it's a good deal. They're going to tell you how beautiful it is, but somewhere your brain must be going, “I'm a little worried.” If you're a little worried, stop. I can tell you that those rubies were glass-filled. Of course, they looked good. Were they rubies? The GIA would call them a red, man-made product rather than a ruby. I've gotten a report on such a stone, and that's what they said. I think you have to listen to your voice. The less you know, the more wary you need to be, and the more questions you need to ask. The more questions you ask, eventually you're going to hear things that are going to lead you to either trust and buy or not trust and not buy. If I were a neophyte, I would be like, “Wow, that's a really good price. That's so much less than I've seen for similar pieces. Is the stone natural?” If they say, “Oh yes, this is an all-natural ruby,” I would say, “Will you write that on my receipt?” Then you have recourse. Now we're getting into federal law. Again, we're talking about someone who doesn't know. You have to ask questions to try and get a sense. It's like questioning your six-year-old who's definitely got cupcake crumbs on his fingers. You know something has happened. You're not quite sure what, but you're pretty sure. You want to give him a chance. “So, what have you been up to?” “Oh, nothing.” “What's on your fingers?” They're going to look at their fingers. “Nothing but these crumbs.” “Crumbs, really?” So, you begin to get an idea. The truth is there's no silver bullet for solving these issues. I tell my clients to decide what fun money is to you. For some people, that's $100. For other people, that's $10,000. If you don't want to become more expert in something you want to buy a lot of, if you're going to spend more than fun money, ask an expert. Bring someone in who's knowledgeable, who's an expert, and take it from there. I do that too. I'm pretty expert in a lot of stuff. When I buy a very high-end sapphire, I have someone out on the West Coast who is strictly an expert on sapphire. I will often send it to that person to have it evaluated in much greater detail than a lab report. I will speak with them, and they will walk me through tracing all those factors in the marketplace and how they relate to establish what a wholesale price for it would be, and even sometimes what a retail price would be. A small difference in color in a five-carat stone could be a $10,000 to $20,000 difference at retail. Sharon: That's certainly true. Can you look at a piece of gold and tell who the designer is or where it's from? Jeff: The first thing I do is look for the hallmarks. I'm deft with reading hallmarks, and if I don't know—just this morning, I was taking a picture of a hallmark I couldn't find anywhere. Our shop has a library off the main floor, and the walls are covered with books on all the various designers, on gemology, on the history of jewelry. Then there are cases, which are closed, and they're filled with catalogues, every Tiffany catalogue from 1951. We have probably 60 or 70 Cartier catalogues. We have primary reference material we look at and use, but the short answer is about a third of the time, I can look at something and tell you who made it. But until I look at those hallmarks, it's just a really well-informed guess. Sharon: Can you tell the age of something? If you don't know who made it, can you tell the age just by looking? Jeff: Yes, by examining the piece and taking cues from both the aesthetic choices the goldsmith made, but also from the resources the goldsmith had when they were doing the fabrication. That usually is what tells me when something was made. The resources often dictate the mechanical style. For instance, the French often prefer not to physically join pieces in necklaces. They have a particular way of hinging them. It's sort of a pin with a mushroom cap. When you see that, you almost always know that's a French piece or it was made by someone who studied in France. If it's a Genevan piece, well, the Genevans often studied across the border. There are a lot of clues. It just takes time to learn them. Sharon: The people who work for you or with you, what do you suggest they learn? Do they follow you around, or do you show them each piece? Jeff: I have a really knowledgeable staff. They know a lot. Truthfully, I tell them all the time that they know a lot more than they think. They get to a certain point and I stop telling them; I just ask. In the beginning, though, they'll hesitate. They'll say something and it's almost always right. They have good instincts. When they've handled enough pieces, when we've pulled the books off the shelf—like when I look at Georgian pieces, I don't just go, “Oh, this George III,” or “Oh, this is George IV,” or “This is early Victorian.” They look different aesthetically in many cases, but the way the mountings are made, for instance, changes in subtle ways over a period of time. So, I'll go back to a reference book, and I'll pull out a dozen pictures from each period, say from 1740 to 1780 and then 1780 to 1800, and try and make sure to narrow it down. Some people have that in their heads. That one still hasn't stuck for me, so I always look it up to make sure. And I have a photo repository. There are many museums that allow you to take photographs. I have extensive photographs of pieces from the Treasury in Vienna because they allow photographs. I believe the British Museum has a vast collection—I don't believe; I know they have a vast collection of Victorian. They allow photographs, whereas the V&A, I don't think they do; I'm trying to remember. So, we have those resources as well. We're always trying to learn, and we take staff trips to museums. I'm hoping to take the staff on a museum tour, maybe in London at some point because there's so much to learn there. Every time I go, it reinforces what I've seen before. Sharon: Are there tours? I'm asking for a personal reason. Are there tours like you're talking about? Jeff: I think there are some jewelry tours. I want to say maybe get involved with Jewelry Week, the folks who run that. I don't know of any. We would just go on our own. I know where to go and what to look at and which dealers to visit, the rock stars of our world. Recently the Vegas Show went on, which is a dealer-only show. I was standing in a taxi line with my creative director, and we just struck up a conversation with one of the Heyman brothers from Oscar Heyman. I had no idea who he was, and we're just talking about stuff. I didn't even know he was in the jewelry world. Then he said something, and I was like, “Oh, you're at one of the shows. What do you do? Who are you with?” He said, “I'm with Oscar Heyman. I'm such-and-such Heyman,” and I said, “Oh, wow! We love your work so much. We follow you. We look at your work. You have such an amazing reputation.” They're the nicest people. He was so lovely. He looks around like he's looking for somebody and says, “Did my mother send you?” There's a group of people who are fantastically honest. I would recommend anyone to buy their jewelry, to deal with them, to use them as a resource if you have a Heyman piece. You can get in touch with them, and they will help you. They're really an example of the absolute pinnacle of an exemplary firm, and arguably maybe the most important American firm today. Sharon: I'm surprised to hear you say that you go from high to low or low to high in terms of looking at jewelry. Jeff: One of the things I wanted to talk about was all the different ways we can buy. We have so many choices today as a buyer. I think it's confusing somewhat, and some of the choices open up the opportunity to confuse people on purpose. You have dealers. You have dealers who have shops. You have dealers at shows. You have dealers who have online shops and in-person shops. You have dealers who only have online shops. You have online gateways. That's like a 1stDibs or an eBay, where dealers have their own space on these. You have flea markets, estate sales, tax sales. You have auctions in person. You have online auctions. Now, you have guaranteed preowned. You can go to Cartier and buy an estate piece guaranteed preowned like you buy a guaranteed preowned Mercedes. A number of those stores are doing that. Then you have buying from a friend, a private person, The RealReal, or Poshmark. There are places where regular people have somebody else sell their things or maybe they sell their own things. You have Facebook moms' groups. You have Facebook Marketplace. That's a lot of places to buy things, but here's the thing: the rules for how you buy are exactly the same no matter who you're buying from, and the laws that control these sales are exactly the same no matter who you buy from. That's a hard thing to remember. If you're shopping for an engagement ring, a mom who's selling her engagement ring may not want to give you a proper receipt. She might not even know she's supposed to, but she may only sort of remember what the diamond weight was. Maybe she didn't buy a diamond at all, or maybe she was given a diamond ring and it wasn't a diamond; maybe it was a Moissanite; maybe it was a synthetic diamond. All the more reason why you need a receipt. I'm not even saying that anyone is trying to do something dishonest in this situation. I'm saying that you're spending a decent little chunk of change or a big chunk of change, and you have to protect yourself. The more risk, the more careful you have to be. I'm just as careful as an ordinary buyer. I have a lot more knowledge that helps, but I'm just as careful. We buy from other dealers, obviously, all the time. There's a psychology of dealers selling to one another. Even though we're dyed-in-the-wool retailers, we still sell very specialized diamonds. We have several dealers in Europe who buy very specialized, historic pieces from us that are worth a lot more to their customers than they certainly would be to mine. It's not my specialty; it's not my niche. So, I have all the same issues buying from another dealer that a regular person might have buying through a moms' group. It's the same problems and issues, and it's the same task in terms of making sure you're getting what you think you're buying. Sharon: Do you sell a lot online? Do you notice a difference in the questions people ask? Jeff: I'm going to say off the cuff that I think there are more questions from my online buyers than from my in-person buyers. I think there are more questions, and more detailed questions. I think they're smart. The online buyer does not have the opportunity to look me in the eye, doesn't get to see where I'm standing or a sense of whether there's an exchange of information. Maybe they ask, “How long have you been in business?” “Well, we've been here in Litchfield for 26 years. We own the space we're in, so I'm hoping not to go anywhere else. This is my ideal. You'll find me here next year and hopefully in 10 years, in 20 years.” Beyond that, I'm not sure I can say any more, but I think the online buyer has to be just as wary, but perhaps in different ways. Sharon: What kinds of ways? As to the right questions? Jeff: The questions I get asked a lot: I get asked if I could send a video of the piece in natural light because they're concerned about the color. You know what? They should be. We have great photographic resources. Frequently I will decline to let my team sell a piece online because we can't get a picture that properly shows the color of a colored stone. Even though it looks right on our screens, which are calibrated, it's going to look really different on a phone. Phone screens are the best. It's going to look better on a phone than it might even look in person. It's going to look different on different screens. So, I think it's not a bad thing to ask some questions. Personally, I would call and say, “What does this look like in person? Can you describe it?” That's a frequent question, and I think it's a good one. People ask about the guarantee. You and I have discussed many times that the 10-second lecture on buying online is all about the guarantee. You have to be guaranteed that you can return something you don't like for any reason, no questions asked. Sharon: If I knew I could return something without any questions asked, I'd probably feel more comfortable, at least on some of these purchases. Jeff: I agree completely. There are many situations where you can't return pieces that are online and where you can't inspect them in person. As dealers, we can deal with having a certain amount of loss. Maybe in this particular situation, you buy from them several times a year, and maybe two or three pieces aren't right and you have to fix them. You hope to sell them for something close to what you paid and you move on. People say, “Well, it's just the cost of doing business.” As long as you feel like you're doing well overall, then O.K., that's great. But I think if you have a bad experience as a buyer, as a consumer, I would probably not go back to that situation. I would try to find some place you trust more. Sharon: That's probably good advice. Jeff, thank you so much for giving us your tips. I'm sure there are a lot more we didn't cover, but thank you very much. Jeff: You're so welcome. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How to know when to walk away from a purchase, and how to trust your intuition when buying Why you should always ask for a detailed receipt, even if it feels awkward Commonly misunderstood phrases dealers may use to confuse buyers How Jeff does due diligence before making a purchase How to navigate the many platforms where you can purchase jewelry today   About Jeff Russak Jeff Russak is principal of Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers. Jeff's expertise in antique and 20th century jewelry combined with an uncompromising attitude toward quality, condition, and style directs the acquisition process. His proficiency in signed pieces and hallmarks is especially useful in identifying and dating each piece. In demand as a speaker on antique jewelry at museums and shows, he also volunteers as a guest appraiser for charity.   Additional Resources: Website Facebook Instagram Twitter   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript:   When it comes to buying jewelry, nothing is more important than trust. That's why Jeff Russak, principal at Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers, won't hesitate to leave a purchase behind if his inner voice tells him something is wrong. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he vets his purchases and the dealers he works with; what red flags buyers should watch out for; and why a receipt is more powerful than you might think. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    Today, my guest is Jeff Russak, one of the principals of Lawrence Jeffrey. They are estate dealers located in Litchfield, Connecticut. Jeff has had decades of experience buying and selling. He's also extremely knowledgeable about estate jewelry. Along the way, he has learned about what a good dealer should be doing and what you should know in order not to be taken advantage of. There are lots that dealers know about good dealers that the ordinary buyer doesn't know. He will fill us in on some of that today. Jeff, welcome to the podcast.    Jeff: Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.   Sharon: I'm so glad to have you. This is the second time you've been on. I'm glad you decided to come back.    I bought a diamond tennis bracelet several years ago—well, a long time ago—that I was told was Art Deco. Then, when I showed it to somebody else, they said, “That cut wasn't done until the 80s.” I still like the bracelet, but how could I have avoided that without knowing everything there is to know about diamonds?   Jeff: That's a really great question, and it's actually kind of a complicated one. The person who looked at it did something which is very basic. They looked at the cut of the diamonds. That's one of the things I do when I'm determining the age of any piece. We look at the stones. We have a good general idea of when different cuts, for diamonds or otherwise, were established.    The short answer is I think the only way you could have avoided that would have been to have a better handle on whether this dealer is expert enough to make that determination or not. That can be a hard thing to do. We've talked about how to buy, and a lot of how to buy is all about who you decide to trust. I think for the average buyer, figuring out who you trust and who you feel comfortable with is really the bottom line.   I'll tell a story about one of our better clients. We didn't know this for years, but they're people who have become friends. They started buying from us when we were very new to the business. They didn't buy just jewelry, but they bought decorative arts. We didn't know it, but every single piece they bought from us was going to one of the top appraisal firms in New York and being appraised and verified. After quite a number of years, they told us this. That that was one of the reasons why they kept coming back, because everything was O.K. We passed the test for authentication and for value. Perhaps that's a bit extreme for most people, but it's certainly one way.    I would say it's listening to that little voice in your head. I think today a lot of what I'd like to talk about is how I buy, because the way I buy is no different from the way I recommend that everybody buys. Of course, there are things I know that an average buyer is not going to know, but a lot of what I do is simply being a good detective and listening to that voice in my head. When the voice in my head says, “Don't buy something,” even a little bit, I just don't buy, or when the voice in my head says, “I don't know if this relationship is for me.” Maybe I think the person is a lot smarter than I am. That happens. So, how am I going to know I'm making the right connection, buying for the right price so I can present pieces to my clients for the right price? A lot of it is your instincts. Trust your instincts. It's so tempting to buy something that looks great or you've been told is great or you've been told is a good deal, but if you don't have that sense, that feeling you should, then you shouldn't.   Sharon: Is that how you buy all the time or most of the time?   Jeff: That is definitely part of what I do. It's a big part. We tend to make relationships, and we buy a lot from individual relationships. Some buyers are like bees who are busy pollinating every flower in the field. I think that's really funny. If that's your style, I think you should do it and you should enjoy it. That's a different risk level and a different set of rules. If find people who I really trust, people who are open and transparent with me, who answer my questions in a very forthright way, then those are the folks I go back to again and again. I have the same advice for anyone.   Sharon: Are they here or are they in Europe? Are they everywhere?   Jeff: They are everywhere. I have great contacts in the U.S., and I mean contacts from dealers that I might see in a flea market. I have a couple of local folks who run estate sales. One of them is the finest generalist I know. He is so incredibly smart and knowledgeable. I totally trust him. If I ask a question, he tells me what he knows and what he doesn't know.   Sharon: If he or one of these people that you trust called you up and said, “I have a piece I think you'll really like. I don't know anything about it, but I think you'll really like it,” and maybe they're far away or you don't want to go, will you buy it sight unseen?   Jeff: This goes back to what you and I discussed briefly. I think it's all about the return policy. Yes, I will agree to buy something, but I don't think it's sight unseen anymore. They're naturally going to send me a picture using smartphones. That technology is great, but the pictures don't always tell the whole story. Someone who's really honest doesn't have any fear of taking something back if it doesn't work for the client. I don't think there's anyone I deal with who won't take a piece back if it's not quite right for me.   Sharon: It's interesting you say that. It's probably true, but I hadn't thought about it. There probably isn't anything that's sight unseen anymore with the internet and everything.    We talked a little bit about receipts. Should we make sure we have the receipt?   Jeff: The rules for everyone are the same. There are a lot of laws in place, mostly federal laws. Some of them are laws that relate specifically to jewelry. There are several pages of regulations, and also there are laws that simply are contract law. Your receipt is your contract. You need to ask that every piece of information is included on the receipt.    Let's say you're buying a diamond ring and it's supposed to be by Cartier. You want to know that it's 18-karat gold. You want to know what the diamond grade is. You want to know about the color and clarity. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to create an environment that's very hidebound. We all understand that people do their best to approximate, but they need to be close, let's say. So, you're going to want the diamond colors and clarities, and then you're going to want it to say, “authentic Cartier” or “this ring is by Cartier.” Here's a little trick: if they say, “This ring is signed Cartier,” that doesn't mean it has to be made by Cartier.   Sharon: Who is it made by?   Jeff: It could be made by you and me and we got someone to engrave the word “Cartier” on it. Signed Cartier does not mean it is Cartier. It means they are guaranteeing that the word “Cartier” is on the piece. “Authentic” Cartier or “by Cartier” means that it is Cartier. There are quite a number of situations, especially online, where you do often see the phrasing “signed Tiffany,” “signed Cartier,” “signed Van Cleef & Arpels.” Now, they may fully mean that it is, but I've seen quite a number of situations where it was clear it wasn't.    Sharon: You're asking for a lot; maybe a lot that people don't put on the receipt normally. Have you had any push back? Were people getting annoyed with you?   Jeff: No, I think this is really simple. At my shop and at shows, I have definitely been asked to include all the information on my tag, which is all the information I've mentioned and more. People have said, “I would really like that on the receipt. Could you make sure it's on there?” I think if you get pushback, then I would decline to buy the piece no matter what. If they're someone who can't write that information on a receipt, for me, suddenly, there are alarm bells. Something is wrong. Now, maybe it's just a person who doesn't like doing that. That's possible, and they're a totally honest person, but if they don't want to put the information regarding the piece on the receipt, that's a problem. You have no recourse because your receipt does not state the proper information.    Here's the deal: that contract is forever. People will tell you you can't return things. People will tell you, “Oh, that was two years ago. That's expired.” If it says 10 carats of diamonds and it's only five carats, you can return it. You can return it tomorrow. You can return it in five years. Your grandchildren can return it in a hundred years. That's a contract that has to be accurate. It doesn't matter. It could be tractor parts.   Sharon: It's easier for you. If I see a piece and I have fallen in love with it—if you want it, you overlook a lot, whereas you can say no to a lot and pick out one where you think the person is trustworthy. Is it easier for you?   Jeff: I think you're making a good point. I made some notes before we started. Here's what I wrote about this: this is how I buy, but there are various rules. Let's just say we've discussed them. If I think I should start spouting the law, I remind myself to zip it and just move on. There's lots and lots to buy. It's not my job to tell people what the law is. It's not my job, except on this podcast.    The thing I'm not comfortable with is when someone skirts the law and won't make a proper contract. If you were buying a house and they refused to get a survey, I would say, “Hey, something's up.” I think it's reasonable to ask for a proper receipt, always, and it doesn't matter whether it's Walmart or Sotheby's or any number of famous dealers I can name all over the country. It's perfectly fine, and anyone who is selling things in an honest way won't have any problem with that. If it is what they say it is, why not write it? This shouldn't be any issue. I understand it's uncomfortable.   Sharon: I'd rather somebody tell me, “I don't know,” than guess and say, “I don't know what it is. I don't what it's made of,” that sort of thing.   Jeff: That's a great point. I would much rather people tell me, “I don't know.” But here's the thing: the “I don't know” price should be half of the “I think it's a sapphire” price, or maybe a quarter. “I don't know” means the price should be falling, falling, falling. If you say, “Oh, this is a beautiful turquoise necklace,” is it natural turquoise or is it reconstituted? Now, by law, they're required to tell you. If they say, “I don't know,” the law then requires you to insist they find out.    Once again, it's uncomfortable. If they say, “I don't know,” chances are you really should just walk away. Let's say this gorgeous turquoise necklace is gold. It's got all of these stones, and it's $12,000. Well, $12,000 is a lot in my world. Maybe it's not that much money to other people, but “I don't know” doesn't go together for me.   Sharon: That's interesting. I'm coming from the items I bought when I started getting into jewelry. Now I know a little bit more. For instance, there are people who seem to have a natural affinity for detail I don't have. They can tell. I'm thinking of a girlfriend who once said, “That's not an Art Deco. That's an Edwardian piece.” It was, and I thought it was Art Deco. I thought she was ridiculous.   Jeff: I think it's amazing when people know. There are lots of people who are so good at that. I think as a buyer, you should—I'll go back to what I said in the beginning. You find someone who you trust and who's going to explain to you what you're buying, and who will rely that on the receipt and who wants to have an ongoing relationship with you. If you have a problem, they will sort that problem out. Look, Jeff Russak at Lawrence Jeffrey is not made of sold gold. He does not have a brain the size of a Volkswagen. We make mistakes. When we make mistakes, we have to fix them. That's the way it is.    Sharon: I've heard the phrase, “Somebody has a dealer's eye.” Do you think there's such a thing as a dealer's eye?   Jeff: I think there is. I think what that refers to is someone who just knows when something is a good deal. I have a customer. When I get a piece I know is a good deal, that we bought well and the retail price is a great price, I tease her and say, “You're like a hound. You can smell the jewelry, that there's a deal.” I think that's totally true, absolutely.    Sharon: That's interesting. Well, I certainly don't have that. If a display case says that all the gems or stones inside are certified, what does that mean?   Jeff: That actually doesn't mean anything at all. It's meaningless. This is where we need to start being detectives. The question is certified by whom?   Sharon: Well, who can certify them?   Jeff: People often think it's a government agency, or they think, for instance, that it's a lab like the GIA, or they think the dealer is certifying. A dealer who's smart, who's on the up and up, isn't going to certify anything. Certifying means you agree that the information is true. Most appraisals, for instance, are very careful to have at the end something that says, “We've done our best job to approximate, to use our knowledge to establish what things are,” and then when they say, “I duly sign,” or “I hereby certify,” all they're certifying is that the signature is theirs. They're not certifying the information. They're saying, “We've done our best job.” They probably have, and the information is probably correct, but certifying is different.   Like at the GIA, when you study to become a gemologist, they wrap your knuckles with a ruler if you say certificate or certify. They don't certify things. They produce laboratory reports. It's a report, not a certificate. It doesn't certify anything. It is a laboratory process they have performed to the best of their abilities, which is pretty darn good.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Kristen decided to start the next phase of her career at Scotland's University of Dundee Why metalsmithing and jewelry attracts people who like a challenge How creating jewelry can be like creating an opera What young jewelry artists can learn by entering competitive exhibitions Why curiosity can help artists overcome shyness and fear   About Kristin Beeler   Kristin Beeler joined the faculty of Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art and Design at the University of Dundee, Scotland UK in 2023.   From 2002-2023, she was Professor of Art and Coordinator of Jewelry and Metalwork at Long Beach City College in the Los Angeles, California area. She is native to the Blue Ridge Mountains of central Appalachia and is a second generation graduate of historically interracial and craft-centered Berea College receiving a BFA in Crafts and Applied Design with a minor in Philosophy (1989). Her Master of Fine Arts in Jewelry from the University of Arizona (1994) was followed later by post graduate studies at Alchemia Jewellery School in Florence, Italy (2011) and  Atelier Rudee, Bangkok, Thailand (2013).   Solo exhibitions include Integumentum 2021 at Baltimore Jewelry Center, Baltimore, Maryland, Archive of Rag and Bone at Mesa Contemporary Arts Museum, Phoenix, Arizona (2016) and Beauty and Other Monsters at Velvet da Vinci Gallery, San Fransisco, California (2007).   Additional Resources: Kristin's Website Kristin's Instagram Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art and Design The Jewellery and Metal degree programme at Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art and Design Instagram  Long Beach City College Metalsmithing IG:@lbccjewelryandmetalwork https://thestrawfactory.com/ IG:@straw.factory   Photos Available on TheJewelryjourney.com   Transcript:   After two decades as a professor at Long Beach City College, artist and jeweler Kristin Beeler is heading back to school herself at Dundee University in Scotland. Although any international move comes with fear, Kristin has relied on a sense of curiosity to keep pushing her work froward. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why certain artists are drawn to metal; how she tries to create context through her work; and why some of the most important lessons she learned were from submitting her work to competitive exhibitions. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    If you look at Kristin Beeler's jewelry, she looks like she's a risk taker, but that's not really true. She has followed a well-worn path, but she also has risk in her work. She received her master's and then became a professor of art at Long Beach City College. She teaches both metal arts and jewelry. She is the Coordinator of Jewelry and Metalwork for Long Beach City College. Welcome back.    Did you have to do a lot of looking to find a school like that in the U.S.?   Kristin: It was a school my mother went to, so I was second generation.   Sharon: Wow! What are your thoughts about metalwork versus jewelry arts? I saw that you did some gloves in Tyvek. It was hard to pin down what you do because it's very esoteric. It has a lot of meaning. I kept asking, “Why this?”   Kristin: The work I do is more driven by an idea and trying to build a full context for an idea. The jewelry is part of that context. It's a bit like going to the opera. I love opera, and I love it because it's a full context. The stage is opera. The music is opera. The singing is opera. The costuming is opera. It is all of those things, and those things come together to produce this one idea. I wouldn't say my work is theatrical, but I think it has some operatic qualities when it works well. It's not meant to follow one particular pathway because, as I said, not everything is a piece of jewelry. Some things are meant to manifest through other things, and jewelry is a part of that.    Sharon: I see that you've been in a lot of competitions, where your jewelry is judged. Do you have trepidations? I can't imagine doing anything like that.   Kristin: It's really hard at first. It's one of the hardest things to get my students to do because when you do it, the risk of failure is huge. You're going to be rejected, but it is such good practice. That's what being an artist is about: trying to find the place where your work fits, and if your work isn't fitting into the place you want to go and into the trajectory you want, figuring out how to make it go into that trajectory. It makes shifts to what you're working on.    I haven't done it in quite a long time; most of what I do now is invitational work, but I do find it interesting to enter competitive exhibitions. It does a couple of things. Usually if I'm applying for a competitive exhibition, it could be because I want to get my work in front of a juror, or it's in a location where I want to go, where I have friends. Or it's a theme I like and I find interesting. But I had to go through a period of doing it and becoming O.K. with someone saying no and doing it anyway. When I was in graduate school, I was told, “Be prepared to wallpaper your room with rejection letters. Get rejected as much and as often as you can because it is a skill to build up and not let that stop you.”    Sharon: Are you ever rejected if it's invitational?   Kristin: If it's invitational, it's because they've seen my work and they want something in particular.   Sharon: That must have been a big hurdle in the beginning. To be rejected must have been a big hurdle.   Kristin: It probably was. Looking back on it now, it's funny. I was silly to be so worried about that. I think I was lucky that my work was pretty readily accepted. I think I did quite well. Even going into this new career—I'm basically going into a second career—there are moments when I think, “I don't know if I can do this. What was I thinking?” and I can go back to those moments previously where I tried to do something where uncertainty was guaranteed, or I didn't know how it was going to work out. I can say, “Well, I did that, and it worked out O.K.”   Sharon: Did SNAG help you? You were on the board of SNAG. Why don't you tell us what it is?   Kristin: The Society of North American Goldsmiths is the organization for the field. I have worked with SNAG since 1999 or 1998. That was when I first started volunteering for them. I started working with SNAG because I would go to the conferences at the encouragement of my graduate faculty, and I was kind of terrified. There were a lot of people there whose work I would see in publications or I'd hear about them. I was quite shy, so the easiest thing for me to do was offer to volunteer for something. If I don't know what to do, I'll work, so volunteering was a perfect thing to do. It was intuitive.    It wasn't planned at all, but I met so many interesting people by volunteering at the conferences. They would say, “Oh, would you be able to do this?” and I would say, “Well, yeah,” and then I would meet more interesting people. I don't know that it was a great expansion time for my work because there are only so many hours in the day. When you're putting your energy out for one thing, it's not necessarily going in the other direction. So, I don't know that I was accomplishing as much in my studio, but I was meeting really, really interesting people and having some really interesting conversations. I think that that was one of the most valuable things about being involved with SNAG, just getting to know the community in a deep way.    I served on the board of SNAG for five years between 2001 and 2005. I've had some job with SNAG almost every year since then, some small thing, helping with exhibitions. I have worked with the Diversity, Equity, Access and Inclusion Committee. I have worked with the Educational Endowment Committee. Currently I serve as trustee for the SNAG Educational Endowment Scholarship Trust. That is my primary role with SNAG at this point.   Sharon: Do you recommend it to your students as a way to learn about the field?   Kristin: Always, yeah. That and listening to Jewelry Journey.   Sharon: I don't know about that. I was thinking about you listening to other people's opinions. I once heard someone say that they felt they had to know who the artist was before they could wear the piece of jewelry. I just felt like, “Well, is it pretty? Do I like it?” and that sort of thing. That's why I would be intimidated.   Kristin: It was interesting to humanize all of those things. Often the work can be much richer once you have a better idea of the person who made it. It can alter your perspective on pieces to know who made it. Sometimes you might not want to know, but I think one of the great blessings of this field is that it is full of generous and warmhearted people who are so willing to share what they know.   Sharon: Do you consider yourself one of those people willing to share what you know?   Kristin: I hope to be, yeah.    Sharon: I'm struck by the fact that you say you were shy, because you don't come across that way at all. Does that present itself in your reluctance in going abroad and when you started teaching? Was that a concern?   Kristin: Yes, I was pathologically shy, but more than that I was curious. I think curiosity trumps those reluctances if you allow it to. Being curious takes you outside of yourself. You can become involved in other people's stories and other people's interests. When you change that reflection, then it's much easier to get to know people and enjoy them. As I said, my go-to was to do some work and find other people who are doing work and just help them. Carrying the load together is always a good way of lifting yourself up as well.    When I started teaching full-time, I spent probably the first several years pretending to be someone who is comfortable in front of a classroom. I don't know that I was, but I could pretend to be someone who was. I think going to Scotland, now that the challenge is there, it's exciting and terrifying by turns, but I'm so curious. I always want to know what happens when you do this or what happens when I do this. Pulling into that curiosity is a life raft.   Sharon: Do you have a history with the country? Did your family come from there? Did you visit it a few times?   Kristin: No, I had never been to Scotland before I interviewed, but my family has lived in Appalachia for about 400 years.   Sharon: Where?   Kristin: Appalachia.   Sharon: Oh, 400 years, wow!    Kristin: Yes, so they have been there for a very long time. Many people from that area came from Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, so Scottish history was something we grew up with because of this strong connection to Scottland and Ireland. The music that was local to where I grew up came straight from Scottland. The local dances, the crafts in particular. Things that had been brought 400 years earlier were still practiced, and a lot of those skills came from Scottland.    Sharon: Do you lie in bed at night, or are you grocery shopping and an idea comes to you and you start on it?   Kristin: For my studio practice?   Sharon: Yeah.    Kristin: There are probably two tracks to that. One is that it's all a long inquiry that never stops. It‘s one little thing that leads to the next. It doesn't have a beginning or an end. It's kind of all in the middle and ideas roll in one direction or another. Pieces may not finish, but I'm committed to finishing bodies of work. I'm really terrible about it, actually. In terms of solutions—I think maybe what you're asking about is solutions to particular problems—those are things that revolve as well. Sometimes I'll see something, or I'll be making something that doesn't make sense in the moment, but I'll just hold onto it. It's like I'm looking for an answer to a problem. It's like, “Oh, there it is in this book or in this drawer of samples I made.” If I waited for ideas to come to me, I'd be waiting a really long time. I have to go out and hunt for them. They're constantly generating, but the solutions to problems plug in at different locations on a very long timeline.   Sharon: For instance, on some of the projects, whether you're invited or you decide to enter a competitive situation, once that's done, do you say, “O.K., that's nice. That's done. Now, I'm on to the next thing,” or is it done?   Kristin: These pieces often cycle in and out. Unless a piece is purchased, they all belong to this collection of pieces that are shown in different iterations. For group exhibitions, there may be between two and four pieces that are shown together, but for solo exhibitions, there's a larger body of work. Every time I show that body of work, it may have different pieces in that collection that are shown.   Sharon: What happened to the gloves that are made of Tyvek? How did you come up with the idea of Tyvek?   Kristin: Oh, I love Tyvek. It is such a fun material. Certain materials just didn't appeal to me, and I have all of these Tyvek mailers. I would get things in the mail, and they come in those Tyvek mailers. I saved all these mailers for years and thought, “I'm going to do something with them.” Then I realized you could just buy it. I had kept it because it has this beautiful, papery, silky quality to it which is really nice. It's virtually indestructible until it's not, so it has this strength but this vulnerability as well. I like that about it.    From time to time, I have made gloves over the years because I think they're interesting objects. There's such a strong relationship to the body and what we do with our hands. Those gloves in particular were designed with this young woman in mind who had this scarf. I already said I love opera, so having these opera-length gloves, I used a vintage pattern for that. I had her scarf embroidered on these very delicate but strong gloves that were kind of ethereal. That was perfect for my purpose.   Sharon: That's interesting. I saw the pictures, but I wasn't sure what it was. That's very interesting. Thank you very much for being with us today. Good luck in Scotland. We'll be reading about you.   Kristin: Thank you so much, Sharon. This was so fun.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Kristen decided to start the next phase of her career at Scotland's University of Dundee Why metalsmithing and jewelry attracts people who like a challenge How creating jewelry can be like creating an opera What young jewelry artists can learn by entering competitive exhibitions  Why curiosity can help artists overcome shyness and fear   About Kristin Beeler   Kristin Beeler joined the faculty of Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art and Design at the University of Dundee, Scotland UK in 2023.   From 2002-2023, she was Professor of Art and Coordinator of Jewelry and Metalwork at Long Beach City College in the Los Angeles, California area. She is native to the Blue Ridge Mountains of central Appalachia and is a second generation graduate of historically interracial and craft-centered Berea College receiving a BFA in Crafts and Applied Design with a minor in Philosophy (1989). Her Master of Fine Arts in Jewelry from the University of Arizona (1994) was followed later by post graduate studies at Alchemia Jewellery School in Florence, Italy (2011) and  Atelier Rudee, Bangkok, Thailand (2013).   Solo exhibitions include Integumentum 2021 at Baltimore Jewelry Center, Baltimore, Maryland, Archive of Rag and Bone at Mesa Contemporary Arts Museum, Phoenix, Arizona (2016) and Beauty and Other Monsters at Velvet da Vinci Gallery, San Fransisco, California (2007).   Additional Resources: Kristin's Website Kristin's Instagram Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art and Design The Jewellery and Metal degree programme at Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art and Design Instagram  Long Beach City College Metalsmithing IG:@lbccjewelryandmetalwork https://thestrawfactory.com/ IG:@straw.factory   Photos Available on TheJewelryjourney.com    Transcript:   After two decades as a professor at Long Beach City College, artist and jeweler Kristin Beeler is heading back to school herself at Dundee University in Scotland. Although any international move comes with fear, Kristin has relied on a sense of curiosity to keep pushing her work froward. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why certain artists are drawn to metal; how she tries to create context through her work; and why some of the most important lessons she learned were from submitting her work to competitive exhibitions. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. If you look at Kristin Beeler's jewelry, she looks like she's a risk taker, but that's not really true. She has followed a well-worn path, but she also has risk in her work. She received her master's and then became a professor of art at Long Beach City College. She teaches both metal arts and jewelry. She is the Coordinator of Jewelry and Metalwork for Long Beach City College. She has been at the college for at least seven years, and this is her last term there.    She is not afraid to put herself and her work out there, as evidenced by the many exhibitions and jury situations she has been in. She's not afraid for others to judge her work, but her biggest risk is upcoming. That is to be a lecturer in the metal arts department at the University of Dundee in Scotland. We'll hear more about this today. Kristin, I'm glad to have you on the podcast.    Kristin: I'm so glad to be here, Sharon. Thank you.   Sharon: It's great to have you. First, what are your trepidations about going across the world?    Kristin: It is an adventure for sure. I've actually been at Long Beach City College for 21 years. This was my 21st year, so it's been quite an adventure. It's been an amazing time to spend with the students and an impressive faculty at the school. It's been an incredible privilege, and it's also given me the opportunity to develop a really strong program. Our jewelry entrepreneurship program is only a few years old, but we've been able to grow exponentially because of it.    It's interesting going to Scotland. I'll be joining the faculty of Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art & Design and the Jewelry and Metal Design Program. It's an amazing faculty there. They're one of the top design schools in the U.K. They have an amazing track record, and the faculty has also been working together for a long time. Here, I know where the funders are. I know where the suppliers are. I know where the galleries are. There, it's all going to be new. I don't know the funders. I don't know the suppliers. I don't know the metrics well enough. All these things are going to be so sparkly and new, so I hope they're patient with me.   Sharon: Did they come to you, or did you go to them?    Kristin: It's an interesting story. I have put quite a lot of time into the program at Long Beach City College. As I said, it had grown exponentially, and a lot of that growth happened during the pandemic. There was a lot of extra work that had to be done, and last fall, I took a term off to recover. I was a bit worn out. I was really burned out. So, I took a term off and had some time to think about what I wanted to do with myself after teaching for 20 years. I realized that what I wanted to do was go back to school. I was a bit jealous of my students because they were having such a good time. I'd always wanted to get a Ph.D., so I started talking to programs in the U.K. and EU because there are no practice-based Ph.D.s in our field in the U.S. I was looking for programs that I might be able to start either while I was still teaching and going into semi-retirement or after I retired.   I had had a wonderful conversation with Sandra Wilson at the University of Dundee. They have a wonderful Ph.D. program in jewelry. There are a number of programs they have practice-based Ph.D.s in, and I had a wonderful conversation with her. She was very supportive. I was getting ready to start putting together an application when they posted a full-time lecturer research position, so I thought, “Well, maybe I'll try that.” I applied for the position and didn't hear anything back for quite a long time. The university processes have their own pace. I think it was a Friday when I got an email saying, “Can you come and interview next Thursday?” There wasn't even time to ask if I could do a Zoom interview. I talked to my family, and they said, “Just go.” I left on Tuesday, interviewed on Thursday, and they made their first offer on Friday and I accepted it. It was serendipitous that I happened to be looking at Sandra Wilson's Instagram. I'd go for days and weeks, months without looking at Instagram, and I happened to look on the right day and see the post about the position opening. Now I'm surrounded by packing boxes.   Sharon: Wow! When you say a practice-based Ph.D. or a practice applied Ph.D., what does that mean and how is it different?   Kristin: Normally we think of Ph.D.s as being text-based. You present a dissertation that is all textual, and you have a verbal defense of the Ph.D. A practice-based Ph.D. can have other formats. Mine will likely have a text component, but also the practice, the work we do in the studio is part of the work for the Ph.D. That is a huge portion of the research. It requires very particular methodologies for approaching that research, but it's an approach that isn't very common in the U.S. It's much more common in the EU, U.K., Australia. I can't remember if there are any in Asia, but it's not found that much in the U.S., a practice-based Ph.D.    Sharon: Yeah, you think of a Ph.D., at least the way I know it from the U.S., as “piled higher and deeper.” You're going to be in a big city. It's mostly what happens.   Kristin: It's a wonderful acknowledgement of the actual work and contribution that artists make as opposed to, “Anybody can do that.” When you start to follow a line of inquiry to a very deep level, it allows so much more to unfold. You are able to connect with people who are doing similar work in different fields. I will be talking to people in the life sciences department. They have one of the top life sciences departments in the U.K., so I'll be able to work with them to do some overlap. It provides some really interesting opportunities for study, which I'm very excited about.    Sharon: How long would it be if you walked in the door and were accepted? How long of a program is it?   Kristin: It's difficult to say. Three to five years would be normal, I think. As I'm teaching, it's actually a part of my job to do that research. I'd be similar to someone who's in the lab doing research for a research lecture. So, I don't know how long. We'll see.   Sharon: I had trouble pinning it down because you're described as professor of metal arts and jewelry arts, applied design and an artist, so I didn't know. What are you, in a sense?   Kristin: I would hate to have to pick one of those things. We're very multilayered creatures, aren't we? I love making tacos, but I'm not someone who only makes tacos. I think that as makers we have our preferences, but just depending on what someone's interests, inclinations or curiosities are. I primarily work in jewelry because it is a method of approach, a method of inquiry, but what is interesting to me is the relationship to the body, and I particularly enjoy the history of it, its attachments. It has a lot of layering that I find really interesting, but when I get bored or stuck on a problem, I'll make a garment or I'll do drawings. It's not part of my practice to only do one thing. Not everything is a piece of jewelry, even though that's what I am primarily known for.   Sharon: How does that fit with metal arts?   Kristin: My training is in metal. Understanding both the properties and the way metal works is an interesting challenge. It's what I teach the most; working with metal and how to master it and develop skill bases. In my own practice, metal is a part that is foundational, but not complete.   Sharon: Do you see a difference in the way the mind works for the students who are more interested in jewelry versus those who are interested in metal? For instance, how do you differentiate? Is there a way the mind works that's drawn to metal versus a different mind for somebody drawn to jewelry arts or a different area?   Kristin: A teacher that I had a long time ago said, “People who are drawn to metal are people that like a little pushback. They like a little resistance.” Metal has its own logic, and you have to understand and follow that logic. Clay, for example, has a lot of process. It's very technology driven, but it also can be very intuitive. Painting can be very intuitive. You can go backwards and forwards. With jewelry, there's a massive skill base that is required technically, so the students who like the idea of working with metal in particular love that challenge. They are turned on by that challenge. They light up when something goes right, and sometimes they even light up when things go wrong because now they have more information.    For students who are attracted specifically to jewelry, often that is a gateway. They're attracted to the idea of jewelry. Sometimes they're attracted to the idea of being able to actually make a living in the arts. One of the important things that jewelry has to offer is that you can actually support yourself with your design and art skills. Sometimes, once they get to know the properties of working with metal, they may love it or they may not. Often, they do. Often, they're really compelled by it. Sometimes they have to find their own way to work with materials that have more flexibility in the processing. You're right. They are different mindsets in that way.   Sharon: It seems like there would be.   Kristin: You're absolutely right.   Sharon: You've been there for 21 years at the college. Did you pick up your master's and your Ph.D. while you were teaching, even though some of it's an applied Ph.D.?   Kristin: I will be starting my Ph.D. in Scotland. That's part of that plan. I did my Master of Fine Arts at the University of Arizona. That program has closed now. Michael Croft was my primary graduate advisor. Michael is a very gifted educator, fierce when we were in graduate school, but incredibly knowledgeable. He's not someone whose work you're going to hear a ton about because he doesn't aim for the spotlight. He's a quiet guy, but he made a name for himself in the 70s. He's a very highly respected jeweler and educator.    His partner is Eleanor Moty, who you may know of. Eleanor Moty was a consistent presence. Even though she was at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she was a consistent presence in Tucson, where our graduate program was, so she had an influence there. Arizona at the time had four graduate programs in jewelry and metalwork. There was a very strong jewelry and metalwork community in Arizona up until the early 2000s. All of those have either changed or closed in the meantime. So, my inculturation to the jewelry and metalwork community was formed inside, literally, a crucible of the desert of Arizona. There was a very strong community.    In some ways, my undergraduate education was equally or possibly even more formative than my graduate education. I went to Berea College in Berea, Kentucky. It was a small, private, liberal arts college that is one of the very few work colleges in the U.S. That means every student who goes there works for the school and, in exchange, pays little or no tuition. It is one of the top schools in that region, particularly in the south. It's an amazing place.    There are a couple of things about it. It was founded by abolitionists in 1856 and since that time has had a history of coeducation. It was the first coeducational college in the south. Since that time, that has been its mission: to educate everyone equally. It has also been one of the very few schools that has its own crafts program. The students actually work in college-run craft industries. There is a huge ceramics industry; there's a huge weaving industry. They closed the jewelry industry right before I got there. The work is made by students, produced by the school and sold by the school, and it's sold nationally. It has a new designer residence program. Stephen Burks has been the first designer in residence. He is connected to Berea through Design Within Reach and a chair manufacturing company—   Sharon: Herman Miller.   Kristin: Herman Miller, thank you. The program has a tremendous amount of reach, and that program had a huge influence on how I think about craft and community.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.    

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Anna finds the plants and animals she incorporates into her work, and how she does so sustainably Why even art jewelry must interact with the body to really be considered jewelry What techniques Anna uses to make delicate materials sturdy and wearable Why Anna hopes her jewelry will connect people to the natural world     About Anna Johnson Anna Johnson is a studio artist, craftswoman and educator residing in Asheville, NC. At a very young age she stumbled upon jewelry making and from then on it became not only her creative outlet, but a space of untampered personal expression that guided her through her educational, professional, and personal development. Equally taken by the depths of the natural world, organic elements began to be her main source of inspiration as her language in jewelry developed.   ​Today her work revolves around the question of where and why our culture perceives value by creating jewelry - often used to display worth, lineage, cultural hierarchy, believe affiliations, etc - with raw elements from directly from the natural world, unique and unpretentiously beautiful, in efforts of providing a fresh line of visual communication, a display of acknowledgment, consciousness, and in alliance with our natural world.   Additional Resources: Website Facebook Instagram   Photos Available on TheJewelryjourney.com    Transcript:   Most people who are drawn to Anna Johnson's jewelry for the first time have no idea it's made from leaves, animal bones and other items from nature—and that's exactly what Anna wants. Adapting techniques to highlight natural materials, she hopes that her jewelry will make people reconsider the world around us. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what attracts her to delicate materials and how she works with them; how she defines jewelry; and why she considers herself an artist first. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    Anna Johnson's jewelry is very different. It's made of the bones of small creatures—for example, the mandibles of small reptiles—mixed with gems. You're so taken with the designs that you don't even realize what they're made of. Welcome back.    So, you came in with the idea that the artistry was metalsmithing and jewelry, but metalsmithing brought you to jewelry, and that was all part of the artistry. Am I understanding that correctly?   Anna: Sometimes it's hard for me to articulate because one, I do feel like my work is a bit vague, so I communicate and it's easier to read through that. The thing that probably got me to jewelry was this fascination and curiosity with the small. It just happened to be this perfect storm of, “Oh, I want to make small, detailed things that highlight the things I am fascinated with.” At the time when I was going to school, it was like, “O.K., if I want to make small metals, it's got to be jewelry,” but I also love jewelry. In a weird way it's a conflict, because I'm not saying that I never liked jewelry—because I do.    I love making jewelry, and it's so important to make jewelry wearable. If it's going to be jewelry, then it's very important for it to make you feel good, make you feel right, make you feel good about yourself, make you feel good when you're wearing it. In order for it to be jewelry, it does need to, in my opinion, fit into the framework of being wearable. You see big art pieces which are amazing but maybe not so wearable. Sometimes that's intentional and makes sense with the concept of the piece. Other times, it confuses me with the way I think about jewelry. Why jewelry then? If it's not going to proudly interact with the body, then is it jewelry? I don't know.   Sharon: I understand that with a lot of jewelry. I'm sort of lost at where the bones and the plants came into place with the jewelry.   Anna: Those are my inspirations. Before coming into it, when you're developing your creative voice, hopefully you grow in your medium. Especially with artists and craftspeople, people that are really connected to what they do—and I think it really works as a language for me. I was able to delve in and learn and explore in my own way. I had a love of plants and animals and stones, and I was interested in the shapes and forms across them. As I continued to learn jewelry—or metalsmithing, really—and I continued to learn that craft, I realized how they had come together. That was amazing for me, because I could cast the plants with the bones, and they were so beautiful. I was doing a lot of fragile, little elements, but to me it was so important. It was important enough for me to incorporate them into the work. They were so beautiful I wanted to include this in my pieces.    Then I had to troubleshoot to actually make it wearable and sturdy, so I added a whole other element to my work, and that was with the stones. I use a lot of raw minerals that would be more fragile, so I had to figure out how to stabilize them and back them in such a way where I felt comfortable putting them into the jewelry pieces. That became a big part of my work, and I think that also shaped it. I was constantly getting hit with different things that could have made me be like, “Oh, I just can't include this in the jewelry.” It would be so beautiful to me that I felt like there must be a way. What could that be? It forced me to think outside of the box.    For example, if I had a casting of a leaf that didn't come out all the way, and it had really delicate edges or something like that, that would normally be too fragile to wear on the body. They might get caught on clothing or something. I had to figure out a way to strengthen it to reinforce it. Then, with the materials I was using, I could set a possum tooth and do some stone settings, and those could create more structure to the piece to make it wearable. I had all these “aha” moments of realizing how much more interesting it would be. It might be more complicated for me in the beginning, but it was so worth that extra effort to get to the end result. The end result had a lot more weight and was more successful and different. That's how I carved out a voice.   Sharon: Did you have to explain this to gallery owners and people when you exhibited? Now, today, do you have to?   Anna: Yeah, it takes a little bit of both. I feel fortunate that I think my work will resonate with a lot of people, and it has resonated with people who look at it. It will strike them in some way that initially grabs them. Sometimes, if they don't realize what the materials are at first, they might get a sense of it by taking a closer look. Then I'm like, “Oh, you really like that piece. Well, this is a mandible, and this is a mineral that you don't see that often. I've supported it to make it wearable. Then this is the bud of a daylily.”    I hope—and so far, it seems like this is the case—that the work speaks on its own, but it doesn't need the explanation to make it speak. I think that's a thing with art. It's when it hits someone at their core. Especially if you're thinking about social media and how everyone is getting constant simulation, if you're walking down the street and there's lots of chaos and a mural makes you stop and say “Whoa,” what is it? If you're scrolling on Instagram and you see a piece of jewelry or a piece of ceramic, what is it that makes you stop on something and take a closer look? That's when the piece itself speaks more than whatever the words are behind it. I'm not saying that the words aren't important, but—   Sharon: No, I think that's what I was saying, in that the design attracts you first. I still don't know what the parts of the things I have are made from. You didn't have to explain them.    Anna: I remember a couple of the pieces. You'll have to send me a photo so I can tell you all the bits and pieces that are in them.    Sharon: I like the design.    Anna: Yeah, exactly.    Sharon: Is that what you mean by artistry?   Anna: Yes. You weren't drawn to it because you were like, “Oh, there are bones and plants in there.” It was the overall composition. It's just that the composition is made up of all these really beautiful things that exist in nature. I just pulled them out of context and put them in this form. We might walk by these things every day, and we don't have the time to sit and contemplate and really take in the beauty that's all around us. I think my work is repackaging it in a way that, consciously or unconsciously, it's a connection to the natural world around us.   Sharon: This may be a silly question, but do you think that, if one of the little snakes or something that was alive saw that you incorporated their jaw and put a pearl next to it, they would appreciate that? Do you think they would like that?   Anna: I do. That's another thing. It's something that has been prevalent since the beginning of humankind and across so many cultures, and that's honoring ancestors or animals. It's really important to me that these are things I have found or people I know have found, so I can feel confident that they weren't killed or anything for their bones. I need to find the things in nature so I know where they come from or that they came from someone who understands and appreciates that sentiment.    A lot of times, I'll bury things. If I find something, I'll bury it and let it continue its lifecycle, which I think is just as important. I'm pulling from things in nature, but it is number one that I'm doing it with the most respect for these different elements and the environment and sustainability. I feel like it's convoluted, and I don't think anyone who is creating objects and using resources can actually say they're sustainable, but it's doing as much as I can with as much respect as I can to move toward that as much as possible. At the point when I'm using it in my work, it's completed; it has cycled in a lot of ways. With the tissue and everything, its energy has been able to transfer. Then I can take these things and give those another life as well. All that is really important. I hope they would appreciate it.   Sharon: To me, it's nice. If the animal or the blade of grass knew what was happening to it after it died, it would be happy.   Anna: Yes. I also think there's a disconnect. It's so easy to disconnect from the natural world and not see these things that are living around us. You see a snake or something, and people are like, “I don't know,” and get freaked out by it, but that snake is just living its life. We are living our lives too, and they probably see us and are thinking the same thing about us, acting more in defense. Their reaction is probably much more reasonable than our reaction. Another part of it is that it shifts a bit. Even if someone is wearing vertebrae earrings, there is some part of them that's connected to that. They've looked at that. They've obviously seen something in that as valuable, which is why they've purchased the earrings and are wearing them. With that, maybe they're able to show a little more appreciation.    It's my way of creating this connection wherever I can. Songbirds are really protected, which is amazing, so I think we appreciate birds. There are great resources so you can identify bird sounds, and because of that, we're like, “Oh, they're beautiful. They're wonderful,” and you're not freaking out when you see a robin in a tree. In a way, it's by identifying something. If there's more understanding for things, then we empathize more. I'm not saying my work is doing that in any major way, but I do think it's an interesting way of subtly crossing little wires, giving things a little more context, and that makes us naturally empathize. We name things. If you find something, you should name it. Say you were to get a stray kitten. If you're like, “Oh, I'm going to call you Sebastian,” now you've become attached to it. I think there's something in that. It's like, “O.K., we've identified it,” and then, “Oh, this is beautiful. I'll pay money for this, and a little more to protect it.”   Sharon: Anna, thank you very much for explaining this. It's not easy to explain. It gives me a little more appreciation for what I have. Thank you very much.   Anna: Thanks for asking me. Sometimes I don't know if I break it down in the best way, because I feel like there's a lot of little things going on, and because I am really passionate about what I do with the materials I use. So, sometimes it's hard to articulate that clearly, but I appreciate the chance to get to do that.   Sharon: Thank you very much. It's greatly, greatly appreciated.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.    

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Anna finds the plants and animals she incorporates into her work, and how she does so sustainably Why even art jewelry must interact with the body to really be considered jewelry What techniques Anna uses to make delicate materials sturdy and wearable Why Anna hopes her jewelry will connect people to the natural world     About Anna Johnson Anna Johnson is a studio artist, craftswoman and educator residing in Asheville, NC. At a very young age she stumbled upon jewelry making and from then on it became not only her creative outlet, but a space of untampered personal expression that guided her through her educational, professional, and personal development. Equally taken by the depths of the natural world, organic elements began to be her main source of inspiration as her language in jewelry developed.   ​Today her work revolves around the question of where and why our culture perceives value by creating jewelry - often used to display worth, lineage, cultural hierarchy, believe affiliations, etc - with raw elements from directly from the natural world, unique and unpretentiously beautiful, in efforts of providing a fresh line of visual communication, a display of acknowledgment, consciousness, and in alliance with our natural world.   Additional Resources: Website Facebook Instagram   Photos Available on TheJewelryjourney.com    Transcript:   Most people who are drawn to Anna Johnson's jewelry for the first time have no idea it's made from leaves, animal bones and other items from nature—and that's exactly what Anna wants. Adapting techniques to highlight natural materials, she hopes that her jewelry will make people reconsider the world around us. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what attracts her to delicate materials and how she works with them; how she defines jewelry; and why she considers herself an artist first. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    Anna Johnson's jewelry is very different. It's made of the bones of small creatures—for example, the mandibles of small reptiles—mixed with gems. You're so taken with the designs that you don't even realize what they're made of. That's exactly what happened to me. I loved the earrings I saw, and I have several pairs, but I didn't realize they were made of different parts of animals until a jeweler said to me, “Oh, look what these are made of.” I didn't even realize it.    Anna is a city girl who grew up in Appalachia and went to college in Boone. She's won several international awards and has been exhibited in a lot of different galleries, but she'll tell us all about that. Anna, maybe you can tell us. I know with Covid, it must have been really hard for you. Can you tell us about how you came to work with all these animal parts?   Anna: First, thank you so much for having me, Sharon. I'm so excited to have the opportunity to chat with you again. I've been working with lots of different elements from nature, and those have really spoken to the development of my body of work.  I think of all the little bones in the same way I think of plants and the gems and minerals I use in my pieces. In looking at nature, the animals and their lifecycles, which would include the bones, are equally important to highlight. They're also so beautiful and interesting in their shapes and textures and all of those things. The bones are also durable, especially when you pull the idea of taboo off of them. I feel like a lot of times when bones are used, they're used in the context of the taboo or the macabre. I'm trying to take the focus away from that and put them in the same context of how I use plants and minerals, which are elements that you see highlighted and recognized as being beautiful more regularly. It's leveling the playing field a little bit, if that makes sense.   Sharon: It makes a lot of sense. From what I understand or what I've seen, all of it is one of a kind, right? It's not production.   Anna: I do have a body of limited-edition pieces I can repeat. Those are things I would be able to multiply. For example, I have a collection, my serpentine collection, and that whole collection was born from this little scientific specimen a friend of mine found in an abandoned high school in Boone, North Carolina, which is where I went to college at Appalachian State University. She had gone in and found all these specimen jars. There was a crawfish and hermit crabs. One of them had this perfectly coiled little snake. It was just incredible. She gave it to me, and I cast it because I couldn't know if I wanted to have an infinite supply of tiny snakes. One, I have a great respect for snakes, and two, when do you come across an item like that? I was able to take a mold of the original casting and make multiples. Because of that, I was able to develop a limited-edition line of the serpentine collection. But for the most part, my work is one-of-a-kind pieces.   Sharon: That's what I thought. You're in a lot of different galleries, right?   Anna: Yes.   Sharon: I first saw you in Mora Gallery, but looking at your website, I see you're in a lot of different galleries I've never heard of. Maybe you could tell us.   Anna: I'm in Mora Contemporary Jewelry in Asheville. I'm in Hecho a Mano, which is located in Santa Fe. I'm in the gallery shop at the Metal Museum located in Memphis, and I'm in Galleria Alice Floriano located in Brazil.    Sharon: Are you a distributor? Do you go to these places, or do they come to you?   Anna: These were places that came to me. I used to show at a lot more galleries, but because of how I produce and how I work, I can't produce as quickly. So, I had to limit the amount of places because if I show somewhere, I want to have a strong, full collection of work there. The galleries I work with now are places where I value the relationship I have with the staff and where I know they want to know my work and share that with the consumers. It's enabled me to focus on them and create that relationship. Because I make my living off of it, it's important that I'm working with places that are going to actually connect the work with the clients. I really like the places I work with.    Sharon: What did you do during Covid? If you're doing one-of-a-kind, did you line them up and hold them in your studio and then release them?   Anna: Somewhat. Covid was a funny time. It's interesting, especially talking to creative people and people in general. Covid affected everyone in a bunch of different ways. Talking to different artists, I heard a lot of folks that dove in and thrived during that time and were able to be really creative. Unfortunately, it really shut me down. I think the brain is such an interesting thing. I heard it described this way: think of it as though you're trying to sip through a straw, and stress and anxiety start to close that off. The creativity is what you're trying to get through that straw, and all of a sudden it's constricted. It's funny. It's weird, because I would have never thought it would have affected me in that way.    In a lot of ways, when everything was happening at the beginning, I was trying to find the positive in it and thinking that I was going to have this time I wanted. I could go in without having as many deadlines and having to focus on producing rather than the artistic and creative side of it. I was like, “O.K., this will be great.” Except that it shut that down for me. It was a struggle, but it was interesting. I think I was creative in different ways, but not necessarily where I normally expressed it. There was a lot of gardening. It was such a weird time, and I wish I could say I was able to go in and just produce, but that wasn't the case for me. I feel like after that, I was with a lot of people also in that boat, trying to regroup and reprioritize and feel grounded again. I feel like it put a lot of things in perspective. Yeah, it was a weird time.   Sharon: When you talk about reprioritizing, did you say that gardening was more important than jewelry making?   Anna: No, because I wanted it. I would go in my studio and try. It's just that things weren't flowing the way they normally would. It was really frustrating, having to force something that normally flowed pretty well. Another thing was the structure of the business. I'm running a business as a creative person and having to do the business side of it, but also the business is based off my passion and that spirit and how much I believe in what I create. I kind of lost my train of thought. I think the gardening thing came in with things that I didn't have time for before. Then when I started doing it, I really dove into that.    Another reason was that it was very much in the creative vein and still feeding the work. Because I do cast a lot of plants, I was able to focus on getting out of the studio and looking at different plants. A lot of plants I grow I am actually able to cast. I think it brings it full circle, that I can be working in my studio but also be outside. Examining and cultivating plants is also cultivating my work, in a sense.   Sharon: How did you come to the fact that you like plants and animals so much? Your videos and your website show you're looking for these things. How did this come to you?   Anna: I think it's just in me. As a small child, we would come up to the mountains a lot and go hiking, and I think it sparked a lot of my imagination. Actually, the other day, I was going on a hike in this area that I specifically remembered going to when I was a child. If you're hiking, sometimes there are little offshoots; they might be little deer trails. I called them bunny trails. I would always want to go down them, and I appreciate my parents for being really tolerant of letting me follow my imagination, which in that sense would be following a little bunny trail. It was like, “Ooh, what's going to be there?”    I remember this one trail I went on. I was walking, and I specifically remember following a little trail. It was a rock face, and I remember it being filled with tiny, little garnets. It very well could have been, because there are garnets found in this area. It was so magical. Of course, I loved hiking to the big landscapes and waterfalls and all that stuff, but I was really engaged with the tiny, little elements and animals. That was something I always liked. I just loved animals.    I was talking with one of my old assistants a couple of years ago. I told her this story, and she looked at me like, “Well, this makes sense of what you do.” This was probably in early elementary school. It was kindergarten, I think. It could have even been before that. There was a little baby robin that had fallen out of the nest, and my sister and I found it. It was in my backyard, and we took it in and were feeding it. You have to feed baby birds constantly, and my mom was helping. The bird stayed alive through the week, but then my sister and I both went to spend the night at friends' houses. When we came back, the bird was not in good shape and ended up passing away. We buried it in my backyard.   I had three pet snakes when I was little. We would find lizards and frogs and all these little things. Sometimes we would keep them, and sometimes we would bring them to the nature center. Anyway, we buried this little bird. Some of my best neighborhood friends down the street were at the beach. When they came back, they had missed the baby bird, but I wanted to show Hannah, my neighbor. So, not understanding, I was like, “I'll just show you,” and I started to dig up the bird. My dad comes and sees it, and he's like, “Oh no,” and stops me. I just didn't understand. Luckily, I didn't open it because I probably would have been mortified, but it was interesting at that point.    I wonder if that had an effect in some way on what I make. At that point, there was this innocence of not understanding the separation between life and death and what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. There are these little events in people's lives that might tick them or might not. Aside from that, I always had this fascination and this really strong imagination when it came to looking at these elements.    Sharon: So that's how you got interested. Coming from a city girl aspect, were you afraid to touch some of these things or pick them up or look at them?   Anna: Going back to the snake thing, I was little; I just loved them. Now I don't love them quite as much. I don't seek out holding them, but I still have a tremendous amount of respect for these different animals. My mom was and still is a wonderful gardener. I used to go out and help her with gardening. There were worms in the yard, and I'm like, “Hooray!” I would get so excited about these different elements.    For some reason, it didn't dawn on me to be grossed out or scared of those things. I just embraced that. My grandfather also always had a big vegetable garden, and I would be out there helping him. I think there was this fascination in watching the plants grow. Seeing this cycle really resonated with me. l never lost that. That fascination stuck with me, and I found this way to not only express and continue that curiosity, but also share it with others so people can be like, “Oh yeah, that is amazing. That's not gross.” I feel fortunate that I found what I consider a gift. Hopefully I can share that excitement with other people in my work.   Sharon: What led you to incorporate it into jewelry?   Anna: That was another love as a small child. That's something that always stuck with me. I've loved doing things with my hands ever since I was a small child, and jewelry was one of the first things that landed. I think it was because I could, going back to what I said before, enjoy focusing on these teeny, tiny little objects. I first started with macramé, little friendship bracelets, very simple things. Then I went to a bead store. At some point in elementary school, my brain exploded with the possibilities and all of these tiny, little curios that were filling space and how I could put them together.    I always liked to pick up different mediums. I went through an origami phase. I was playing with sewing, but jewelry always popped back up. It continued to challenge me and intrigue me. I could always make things that were different, which was exciting. There were textures and colors. It was engaging for me as a child, through adolescence and into adulthood.    Sharon: First of all, I want to know about Boone College. Were your professors or teachers supportive or understanding about what you wanted to do?   Anna: I went to Appalachian State University through their metals program. I went into the program of studio art knowing I was there to go into the metals program. I knew that coming into it. It's in the Appalachian Mountains, so because of the area, it makes sense that I was pulling from nature for subject matter. So were other people in the class. I think if people are going to that school, they're probably there in part because they love the outdoors.    Margaret Yaukey was my metals professor until she went on sabbatical. My senior year, Angela Bubash was my professor. I was very lucky to have had both of them. They were really supportive. The first casting class I took was when I discovered casting plants. It was so exciting because all of a sudden, I could take these plants I loved and actually put them into jewelry. Otherwise, they wouldn't hold up; they're not permanent. This was the amazing alchemy of turning plants into metal. That was so exciting.    Sharon: You are described in different places as an artist, a metalsmith and a jeweler. I didn't understand how the artistry came in. What do you consider yourself?    Anna: I love this question, especially because I'm at a point right now where I'm looking at that a lot. The first thing I consider myself wholeheartedly is an artist. I came to that because I really consider art an expression. To me, it's a language. It's also a space for me to feel innovative, even if I'm working within a medium. So, because it's such a form of expression to me, I consider myself an artist.    Again, I always like the little, tiny, small things. I love jewelry, and I am a jeweler for sure. I make jewelry, but I didn't come to it to be a jeweler necessarily. I think it was the fascination of focusing on this small scale. I was also into miniatures and collections and things like that. I was attracted to that, so jewelry made sense because it's the idea of little things that don't have a function. They're little tchotchkes. I feel like it doesn't get enough credit for the potential it can hold, but jewelry has this innate sense of preciousness. I also have always loved jewelry. I always wear jewelry, so it was enjoyable for me to make something I could actually put on my body and bring out into the world.   I think jewelry is also interesting because it's a craft. It's considered a functional object, but it's not functional in the same way that a cup is. It doesn't serve a utilitarian purpose necessarily. It's site-specific, which seems like that's the function of it to me, but so is sculpture. If it's a sculpture that's meant to live outdoors, you have to accommodate the space it's going into. With jewelry, it's site-specific, but it can still be artistic and sculptural.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.  

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Heidi helps jewelry artists take the next step in their career and create the life they want Why Heidi's business includes multiple components, including making, teaching and running a gallery How the Earrings Galore pop-up sale got started Why Heidi takes risks and breaks the traditional gallery rules when selecting artists How a bit of financial intelligence can help artists and gallery owners have long-lasting careers   About Heidi Lowe Heidi Lowe owns and operates her own gallery, Heidi Lowe Gallery, where she teaches, makes jewelry and shows her work and other artists. She received her BFA in Metals and Jewelry from Maine College of Art in Portland, Maine. A year later she went to graduate school at the State University of New York, New Paltz where she earned her MFA. Her next steps lead her to NYC where her gallery experience began as an assistant to the director at a prominent contemporary art gallery in Chelsea.    After her time in New York, Lowe moved back to Delaware 2006 and opened Heidi Lowe Gallery which exhibits contemporary art jewelry. The gallery also functions as a teaching and studio space. The jewelry that she creates draws on intuition, nature and the history of metalsmithing. Her work is shown within her gallery as well as in numerous exhibitions at other galleries in the United States. Lowe also taught jewelry design as an adjunct professor at Towson University for eight years and currently teaches workshops at colleges and craft centers around the country. She is also a certified business and life coach for creative entrepreneurs and students throughout the US and Canada. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Links: Website: www.heidilowejewelry.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HeidiLoweGallery/ Instagram: @Heidilowe Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript Heidi Lowe may be the owner of a jewelry gallery, but that doesn't mean she's your average gallerist. Known for her traveling pop-up sale Earrings Galore, Heidi is passionate about introducing collectors to art jewelry and pushing artists to the next level—and she's willing to take risks to do it. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the inspiration behind Earrings Galore; how she balances managing Heidi Lowe Gallery with making her own jewelry; and what she looks for when choosing new artists. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    My guest today is Heidi Lowe, founder of Heidi Lowe Gallery. If you ever thought you needed a guide to show you the ropes, either for making a piece of jewelry or helping with your own jewelry business, you've come to the right place with Heidi Lowe and her gallery. Welcome back.    You're known for your rings and your wedding bands. Can you read a couple when they come in? Can you tell what they're looking for?   Heidi: We do it a few different ways. We have a wedding ring class where they can come and make their own wedding rings. That's just bands. It's called Lovely Rings by Hand. These are couples from all over. It's usually the East Coast, but sometimes they come from farther. It's just me and the couple, and they come into the studio and physically make their rings out of white gold, yellow gold, rose gold. Then they leave with their rings. That is such a special day. It's lovely. It's so much fun, and they're ecstatic when they leave.   We also do a lot of commissions. I'll meet with somebody, and it's like a poem. I think of it as poetry. I ask for three words about the meaning of the ring or the person they're making it for or the next chapter, whatever it is they're symbolizing. I ask for three words about that, and then I ask for three words about their style, the person who's either getting it or wearing it themselves. Are you more organic? Are you more straight-lined? Are you delicate? Do you like bold, whatever that is? Then I ask for three words about what they know about the piece, whether this is, “I want a ring, and I want it to have the three sapphires from my mom's favorite piece of jewelry,” or “I want it to be a piece that symbolizes the journey I went through getting cancer, and we're making it out of the scientific part of that.” Whatever it is, I'm trying to get to know them in an efficient manner that brings us closer together. I feel like that little poem brings me there right away. Usually, the first drawing is what we go with.   Sharon: Do they bring you a stone, or several stones, if they want a stone?   Heidi: It totally depends. If they have a stone and they know they want to use that, they can bring that. It could be a chip stone they saw their mom wear their whole life and they want to use it. It could be a fancy diamond their grandmother had, or it could be something they purchased. Or they come to us and say, “I know I want a blue stone, but I don't know exactly what I want. I want you to find it.” Then I go on a little hunt, which can take a week; it could take a month. It just depends, because we want to find the right thing. I have my resources and I go to them, and sometimes they go to their resources.    It's all about meeting the customer where they are and bringing meaning to the piece they're looking for, so every time they see this piece, they think, “Oh, my mom,” or “Oh, I have this new chapter of my life.” A lot of times they have raw material from some event or something that happened, and we get to transform that into something they're looking for.   Sharon: When did you know you wanted to have a gallery? How did you decide you wanted to be a jeweler?   Heidi: I knew I wanted to have a gallery when I was at SUNY New Paltz studying with Myra and Jamie Bennett. I noticed there were very few galleries and very few places to interact with art jewelry, and I have always been a businessperson. When I was 13, I had my own jewelry business. I made earrings. My mom had a kid's store. When we were there, I would go the bead store and make beads and then I'd grab her. She had screens which I stole from her house, and then I put ribbon around them and made them earrings. Then I would put the name, Cosmic Creations, and a little bio, and then I would sell them to stores in town. I thought, “This is winning in life. I am rich. I just sold 10 pairs of earrings.” That was the start of it.   Then in high school, I made my first ring because my art teacher in school, Mr. Gardowski, let me make jewelry. He had all the tools. In my senior year, after begging him for many years, he sent me in the back with a big piece of silverware and was like, “Go hammer that.” I was making a ring, like the same ring class I teach now, and he thought he could wear me out. He was like, “You go hammer,” and I was like, “I am not going to get sick of this.” I hammered for four days straight, and I made my first ring. I never left the art studio for the rest of the year. I probably made 50 rings that year.   Then, when I was going to Maine College of Art and I studied with Tim McCreight and Alan Perry, I knew where I was going. I didn't have any questions. I love printmaking, and I mix that with my jewelry sometimes. They were across from each other in the hall, and I was going to be in those two spaces if you wanted to find me. I feel so lucky to have found what I love to do so early, and to have it be so expansive that you can always learn more things to do with it. You are never bored in jewelry because there are so many things, so many techniques, so many ideas. It's just one of things that has kept me interested for many years now.   Sharon: Did you mix this with one or two business classes? Did you just know how to do that?   Heidi: I think I just had a desire to do it. With my other business when I was 13, I'd walk down the street and ask all the business owners if they wanted lunch. I would go get them lunch, and then I'd come back and they'd give me a dollar or 50 cents or whatever. I was like, “I didn't expect that, but that was amazing.” It's a problem, kind of, because you have to be careful. All of a sudden, you have four businesses. I just have four that exist under the same roof.   Sharon: Maine College of Art. I've seen ads in magazines, but is it known for its jewelry making?   Heidi: Oh, yeah. Tim McCreight pretty much wrote the textbook for jewelry making class. When you go, you don't know what you have until you realize what you have. I went to the first Seattle SNAG conference with Tim McCreight. I got there, and everybody was shaking his hand. I was like, “Why are people so interested? Doesn't everybody write their textbook?” You don't know what you don't know. I didn't realize he wrote the textbook for the entire country, so I went there and was like, “Oh, I guess he's a big deal.” He was a big deal to me, but I didn't know he was a big deal to everybody.    Sharon Portelance is there. She is an amazing teacher. They have great continuing ed, and they have great BFA and MFA programs. It's in such a beautiful part of the country. The building overlooks the harbor. It was a dream, and it was a perfect step for me to go from a small town to a small city. I applied to Boston, but that might not have been the best fit for me. Maine College of Art was a great step in the right direction. It felt good.   Sharon: I can't see you in Boston. That would be limiting. How do you decide what's going to be in your gallery when they're not your pieces? How do you decide? What do you look for?   Heidi: It's funny; before I moved the first time, when I was in Rehoboth, I was doing a lot more solo shows, one-person shows. We're getting ready to start our exhibition series, which I'm planning on opening for next June. I'm giving myself a little space. I'm going to have a show in September so I can welcome our local community. Then I'm going to have Earrings Galore in November, which will go to New York City Jewelry Week and then come to us. For the following spring, I'm going to start our exhibitions again.    I'm really interested in group shows right now. I'm interested in this conversation between work and how we can help people understand art jewelry through a bigger grouping. I feel like that's exciting. We'll probably have a solo show every year, but we're going to have a few group shows that are talking about a theme or a formal expression. Whatever it is, we're going to cultivate some group shows that are going to be more of a conversation and are going to get the people coming in to have a conversation. I'm excited about that, I'm excited about the display, and I'm excited about the new artists. We're starting that conversation now.   Sharon: It's a lot on your plate at one time.   Heidi: Yes, I gave myself a year. I'm like, “Oh, I'm going to wait until next year to start that.” I didn't cry and go crazy.   Sharon: You must have pictures come in over the transom a lot and have people saying, “Can I be in your gallery?” What do you look for? Have you ever chosen any of those, or do you only stick with people that you know, that you've taught, that you've seen their work?   Heidi: We are definitely always looking for new work. We want people. I would love the gallery to be more of a conversation and more of a forum for the artist. When people have ideas, I want them to bring me their ideas and say, “Hey, can I do this thing?” We're having Lyndsay Rice, who is an amazing curator. She is going to curate a show for next year. She'll bring her ideas and her expertise and her artist database in her head into the gallery. We like artists to bring in a group that makes sense to them because that's what they're interested in. It doesn't happen as much as I would like it to. I think people feel like there's this space between the gallery and the artist, but I am really into punching through that space and allowing the artist to have a little more say and be excited about something.    I would welcome people to come with ideas and their own work. We want it to be beneficial for everyone. Sometimes that's beneficial in that you get to show your work and it does its thing. Sometimes it's a successful show that sells a lot of work, but I don't make that the main focus of why we're showing work. That's not my main focus. If it's great work and it needs to be shown, then it needs to be shown. If it's sold, we're excited, but if it's shown and it got that artist to the next place, then that's a worthwhile endeavor.   Sharon: When you say it has to be shown, is it because you've seen something in the work or in the pictures that's different? What would that be?   Heidi: Yeah, it has energy that's something new. It has energy that's talking about something. They've got a way with what they're making. They are filled with something we haven't seen. If that's the case, then I want that work to be out there, and it deserves to be out there. So, yes, send me images. If you want to write a proposal for a show, and you've got five people you think should be in that show—sometimes we'll use a curator if it's actual curation. It's one of those things where we're open to a lot of things. We are in Delaware, so people have to come here to see the work, or they'll see it online. Sometimes things travel, but not everything travels.    Sharon: How did you make it through Covid? You said you had one gallery that you moved out of, but how did you make it through Covid with everything going on?   Heidi: Covid was an amazing experience for us. We were on a dead-end street. It was very much studio based. I had one employee at the time. She and I just decided we were going to be in this together, so we were going to work every day. I think we went from 10 to four, four or five days a week. We enjoyed our lives, but it was a very focused time where I got to do fewer things and really focus on a few things. We made a lot of work and sold a piece a day over Instagram. Almost every day during the lockdown, we sold one piece.    We had people calling us from all over the country like, “We want you to be there when we get back. We want to pay your rent.” I was like, “Are you kidding me? This is the kindest thing I've ever heard.” It was one of those very heartwarming moments in my world. I realized how important every single relationship I had over 15 years had been. All of those times where I had probably spent too much time talking to that customer paid off tenfold. That was probably the opposite of what a lot of people were feeling, but I felt very invigorated and was really happy with that movement and that process of, “Well, this is what I'm going to get out of this. I'm going to move through this in a way that feels right for me.”    Again, it's back to that little bit of financial conservativeness. I hadn't overextended myself, so I was not really stressed. I was not intensely financially upset about the three months I knew I wouldn't be able to open. Delaware did a good job being moderate about how they did things. When we could open, we were open, and we just followed some guidelines. In three months, things were back to almost normal for us. We were teaching classes.   Sharon: That's a pretty short time. That's good. Did you know when you graduated that you wanted to have a gallery and make all that stuff, or was that something you came to?   Heidi: I knew when I was at SUNY New Paltz that I wanted to have a gallery. I was in grad school, and I wanted to expand the public's interaction with art jewelry, which I feel is really important and probably one of the most contemporary forms of art out there today. I feel like art jewelers are so special and smart and thoughtful and detail oriented. They deserve to be highlighted, and I felt like there weren't enough places for them to do that. It was one of those things that was very important to me, to make one more space for that interaction.    Sharon: When you say art jewelry, do you mean gold and platinum or wood and whatever?   Heidi: All those things. I consider it art jewelry when anybody is bringing an idea to a piece of work and using the medium of jewelry to express it. I don't care if you're using gold and doing it in a thoughtful way or if you're using paper or silver or wood. Whatever that is, my main concern is that you're investigating something. Whether that be formal aspects of a circle—O.K., that's an interesting investigation—or the ring through history or how plastic bonds or how to mix patterns. I don't know. All of these things are interesting, but I want to know what your investigation is. As long as there's an investigation and the end result is something innovative and cool, I'm down.    Sharon: When people submit their work, do they have this philosophy behind them?   Heidi: For sure. They are definitely investigating an idea. 99% of the artists are so deep in an investigation, and most people don't even know it. That's how they get to where the piece is, but most people don't know how. Jewelers by nature are investigating. They're also anal retentive and detail oriented. They are going deep, the ones I'm friends with and the ones in my gallery. They're going deep into something. I am always in awe of how smart and thoughtful and amazing these jewelers are. They have gone beyond what people think.   Sharon: Wow! As you're talking, I'm thinking about all the reasons I'm not a jeweler, especially when you said detail oriented. Do you care what age they are, if they're 60?   Heidi: No. We have second-career artists. We have artists who started when they were really young. We have artists who are just out of school. We show a wide variety as long as it's engaging and there's thought behind it. Those are my two criteria. I don't even know who would enter into this world without those two things.   Sharon: What do you consider art jewelry? You're saying art jewelry is made by artists. If a piece is made by an artist, but it's not what I would consider art jewelry; it's just a one-off, let's say, is that art jewelry? Do you have a definition for art jewelry?   Heidi: I think there are varying degrees of art jewelry. There are artists making work, and some of them are investigating an idea or a medium. Then some are taking it to that next level, which is showing in museums and going to that next level of research and development and thought. There's a continuum, but they may come from there and end up here in their lifespan. When I think of Amy Tavern, she makes the most amazing production jewelry, but she also makes the most amazing art jewelry, and then she makes work that wouldn't be considered jewelry. There's this continuum.   I also choose the work out of what they're making. I don't want the things that are super-production-y and not as thoughtful and not as one of a kind. I would prefer to have more work that is—maybe it's in their production line, but it's one of a kind. I feel like there's a continuum and it's broad. I really want to usher people into art jewelry, so I might need to start them there to get them here, to get them through the bridge.   Sharon: Do you have this written somewhere? Do the people who submit know what they're doing, that they shouldn't present a ladder, that they should present the earring or the necklace?   Heidi: I think people know what we do. In this new space, I have Sarah Holden, who shows her art jewelry in the gallery, but now we have a space for the first time ever. That's this wall. This week—it just got to the gallery—she's going to put this collar she made that goes on the wall. It's actually totally a combo of art and jewelry. It's this life-size Elizabethan collar made of steel and pearls, and that's going to go on the wall. I was like, “Oh my gosh! Look at this piece!” but we never had space for that before. This is a new endeavor, and we'll see how that goes.    I'm limiting it in a way, but I'm not limiting it in another way. I think people understand when they send their work to us. Maybe they're trying something one year and that may not get in. They usually know, and then they go further and get it because they've expanded what they're doing into a more interesting realm. They were starting here, but I'm open to things that other galleries wouldn't be open to because I'm trying to usher people in.   Sharon: Can you give me an example of what you might be interested in that another gallery would pass on?   Heidi: I don't know exactly what that would be except for Earrings Galore. Earrings are kind of the evil stepchild of art jewelry. I just embrace earrings. I was like, “Here we go. Let's do this because this is something people can change every day.” People love earrings. They can be big. They can be small. They can be asymmetrical. They may pass on earrings, and I said, “Let's highlight the earrings.” That's a prime example of where we're not going to follow the rules of a gallery. We're going to expand our idea of what a gallery can be.    Also, those things are all different now than they used to be. There used to be hard rules about these things. Now we can play with what we're doing and figure out new ways of doing it and new ways of drawing in new collectors who may be interested in this whole new realm that they don't even know exists, because none of us knew this existed. I started with making rings. I thought that was where jewelry began and where jewelry ended. Now, thank God I was given the standards I was given by Maine College of Art and Oregon College of Art and Craft and SUNY New Paltz because they allowed me to expand my way of thinking. I really am thankful for that broadened expanse of what jewelry can be, but I also understand the public is not starting there. They are starting at a whole different place, and I want to meet them where they are and move them in.    Sharon: Is that what a collector is to you, that they are just starting out and then gathering stuff?   Heidi: I have one collector that comes from D.C. every summer and buys four or five pieces. She buys things from the Smithsonian and Jewelers' Werk in D.C. She's got a jewelry collection to die for. Then I have people who have more traditional work. Maybe they started with my work because they love me, but hopefully they get sick of me and then move on to other artists. I see myself as a thread that brings them along to the more controversial, bigger, more risky work, what we consider art jewelry.   Sharon: Is everything one of a kind in the gallery?   Heidi: 90% of it is. Some artists will make their work multiple times, but it's in a similar vein. But most of it is one of a kind.   Sharon: If it's one of a kind, is that with two extra made behind it so you can ship off the second in case the first one sells? Or is it that the first one sells and that's it?   Heidi: That's it. You've got to buy it while it's hot. We're always changing. People come back for things and they won't be there. This is the work we have, and we have an expanse. You can buy something here or you can buy something here. You can enter at any point. I think that's just who I am. I want to engage the public in different ways, so we're welcoming; we're not, “Well, this is a gallery and you're not going here.” We're like, “Come in. Let's talk about it and let's get excited.” People will laugh and cry and ask questions. They know they have somebody who will help them or just talk about it.   Sharon: Heidi, thank you very much. When will you open your outpost on the West Coast? That's what I want to know. We're a wasteland out here. Thank you very much for telling us about it. Are you near the Rhode Island mansions? You're in Delaware, but I don't know the geography at all.   Heidi: Delaware is close to a lot, like three hours from D.C. and New York and Baltimore. That's great because we have a huge hub that comes here for the summer. Boston and Rhode Island are like seven, eight hours; Maine is 10. We can go for a long way and get a lot of art in this short distance. In the space of California, we can get a lot in there. Jewelers' Werk is in D.C., and Ellen Riven has an amazing gallery. We can head up to things like the contemporary jewelry galleries in Boston. I try to always work jewelry into my vacations.   Sharon: Thank you very much. On my next vacation, I hope it encompasses your gallery. I want to see this big collar you have on the wall. It sounds really interesting. Thank you very much for being with us. I really appreciate it.   Heidi: Thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate it also. It's so much fun.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.