Mineral Minded Podcast

Dr Rick Malter, PhD, hTMAP Today on the Mineral Minded podcast we have Dr Rick Malter. He is a retired clinical psychologist from Chicago, and is what I consider, to be a pioneer in the field of HTMA and Mineral Balancing Science. Dr. Rick Malter earned his Ph.D. in clinical and educational psychology from the University of Illinois and is the founder of malterinstitute.com Rick is the author of two books, Strands of Health: A guide to understanding hair mineral analysis and Shrinking the Judge: Freeing the Inner Child which are both available on amazon. Rick has also specializes in nutrition consultation for Learning Disabilities, ADD and stress management. He uses nutritional data from hair tissue mineral analysis to assess the mind/body connection and develops nutritional programs to help reduce the intensity of the person's stress response and, therefore the psychological dominance of the Judge.In this podcast, Rick refers to his Copper Toxicity Checklist. TranscriptNot yet uploaded!

Dr. Robert Selig, DC, hTMAPRobert has over 30 years of experience and research in the field of natural health and offers one-on-one guidance to address the root cause of his patient's health conditions. He uses Hair tissue mineral analysis, mineral balancing, detoxification protocols, energy healing and much more in his practise. Dr Selig teaches his patients both the art and science of natural healing to restore energy, strength and vitality. He makes getting back to health and exciting new journey, so that you can live a life without pharmaceutical drugs, avoid future surgeries, and rollback the aging process. You can connect with Robert at backtonaturalhealth.com. Transcript00:02:17:21 - 00:02:20:10John BumpusDr. Robert Selig, pleasure to have you here.00:02:21:16 - 00:02:23:14Dr Robert SeligWhy, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.00:02:25:00 - 00:02:55:24John BumpusSo I'm wondering as you know, where the mineral minded podcast, we have mineral minded practitioners of all kinds here and here. Are they a peculiar one? That is a chiropractor that specializes in hair tissue, mineral analysis. I know you go into alchemy and astrology and energetics of all sorts of stuff. You're like a modern wizard or shaman. So maybe you can give us a little insight on how you got into hair testing in your journey.00:02:56:02 - 00:03:02:05John BumpusFrom being a chiro. Does a lot of physical manipulation to mineral manipulation?00:03:03:17 - 00:03:31:04Dr Robert SeligYeah. You know, it's an interesting story. Because when I was doing my bachelor work, I was studying at the University of Massachusetts where I was studying sports medicine athletic training, and I had to do a report on the ankle when I was studying the ankle. Somehow I came up on a research article up in the library area, and it was talking about ligaments, tendons, connective tissues.00:03:31:08 - 00:04:00:06Dr Robert SeligAnd there was a mention of copper. So for whatever reason, that copper just kind of tweaked my interest with the connective tissue connection to copper. And I never forgot about that. It wasn't in my report, of course, but that was the first thing that, oh, copper in, you know, in the medical articles really fascinated me. And then I just did a little bit of digging and I found about Wilson's disease and and then I had that in the back of my mind.00:04:00:06 - 00:04:23:13Dr Robert SeligAnd as, as a young kid, I was always breaking in bones, spraining ligaments, pulling muscles. You know, every time I went to the dentist, I had a cavity. So between breaking bones and hurting myself, I knew I was a mess. And that's what got me into chiropractic school. So I thought the chiropractic adjustment would fix everything. I didn't.00:04:23:22 - 00:04:37:05Dr Robert SeligSo then I had to do a little bit more digging. And then in chiropractic school, we didn't really get much into the minerals. In fact, magnesium was not mentioned once in chiropractic school. Think about that. Not only did.00:04:37:18 - 00:04:40:11John BumpusThey cover nutrition at all, I'm sure the.00:04:40:22 - 00:05:02:13Dr Robert SeligAdministration classes, but, you know, we talked iron, we talked vitamin C, we talked vitamin D, we talked about some of the diseases of nutritional deficiencies. And then I got more into the Wilsons thing. And then I remember reading somewhere in Wilson's, you know, usually the child's born jaundice. And of course I was born jaundice. So I knew that copper just came to me.00:05:02:20 - 00:05:25:22Dr Robert SeligAnd then after I graduated chiropractic school, I was, you know, doing, you know, adjusting everything. Anyone that would move from cats, dogs, people, I would adjust everything but I wasn't getting the results that I wanted to get. And I was thinking, what was the metabolic portion to this? Why aren't the adjustments holding? I was all you and just everyone.00:05:25:22 - 00:05:50:04Dr Robert SeligYou're going to cure every ailment under the sun, which wasn't true. Of course, it helped. That absolutely was a great modality of practice. But I had to figure out what was the obstacle to the cure of why I wasn't taking my patients health to that next better level. Why did their Paynes always come back? And then I started studying, you know, more into the nutrition.00:05:50:04 - 00:06:26:21Dr Robert SeligAnd then I got into homeopathy. When I started studying homeopathy, That's when I found out about the energetics of things. And then eventually, you know, probably about ten, 12 years ago, I started doing the minerals, the hair tissue analysis to give me a better insight into the mineral matrix. And then that's really what started the journey into hair tissue analysis in understanding how important these minerals are for our physiology, biology, psychology, how cosmology connects to the mineral ology, how it's all connected.00:06:26:21 - 00:06:39:18Dr Robert SeligAnd that was such a fascinating thing that has kept me on my quest of always seeking information and that's where I am today in a quick Reader's Digest version of my story.00:06:40:24 - 00:07:10:20John BumpusHello. That's fantastic. Yeah. At some point I think every practitioner, an acupuncturist or a psychologist who whatever you do, comes to a point where they say, Okay, I've exhausted what I can do in this domain that I, you know, studied in school. And we need to look more of a holistic kind of approach to what's going on. And nothing at least to me, makes more sense than supporting and promoting the optimal cellular function, because I think that's a big one.00:07:10:20 - 00:07:35:19John BumpusAnd if you missed that, it's hard to have someone you might have you probably see it every day. Robert, about people that don't support themselves nutritionally and always have muscle cramps and aching pains or whatever in their body, and then they come to you and I suppose you're going to be more into nutritional support as well. I do the adjustment.00:07:35:19 - 00:07:42:22John BumpusSee you tomorrow. I'll see you next week. So do you incorporate nutrition in your practice now and along with homeopathy and stuff?00:07:43:12 - 00:08:11:06Dr Robert SeligAbsolutely. It's the foundation of my practice is nutrition and addressing the metabolic aspects of, you know, the cellular integrity because, you know, structure determines function. So that's why we do want to address the structural components but we also if we leave out the metabolic portion, we're missing the mark and we'll never we'll never take someone's health to that next level.00:08:11:06 - 00:08:38:01Dr Robert SeligSo that's why in my practice, it's a little bit of everything. So they come to me, they, they're going to know from day one that nutrition will be highly emphasized mineral balancing will be the hallmark of what I'm doing because again, if I don't fix the metabolic portion of the patient, I'll never fix them. And then we'll just be adjusting bone after bone after bone day after day and we'll never get anywhere.00:08:38:01 - 00:08:41:23Dr Robert SeligSo I want results. So that's where I want it all.00:08:42:18 - 00:09:08:06John BumpusNow, that's great. You know, it reminds me of when I studied naturopathy and we were going through, like you mentioned, obstacles to a Cure, which is an important principle. And then the other one is, you know, those disturbing factors in trying to remove those disturbing factors. And they can be physical they can be emotional, they can be you know, I don't know about astrological is I guess there would be some sort of conflicts in that area.00:09:08:07 - 00:09:15:19John BumpusDo you have any thoughts on that? Where someone might have a predominance toward some sort of challenge or so?00:09:15:23 - 00:09:42:20Dr Robert SeligWhen I'm looking at someone, you know, when I profile a patient I want to profile them from every aspect. I want to know about their medical history, their pharmacological history, you know, their emotional history. Is there a complete medical history? And I want to know about their their mineral profile. I want to know about every antibiotic they've ever taken, every procedure and all of them dental, root canals, do whatever.00:09:43:00 - 00:10:05:12Dr Robert SeligSo you just you're looking for all the energy leaks in the body. So part of the profiling is I want to know what day of the week you were born on. I want to know your major son sign. And then I start to see some of the constitutional profiles that you have. So if you're born on a Tuesday, I know you're going to be ruled by the planet Mars.00:10:05:17 - 00:10:27:19Dr Robert SeligAnd I know that Mars is going to have a correspondence to the metal, iron, potassium and zinc. And so that's always going to be in my spotlight. And so sometimes you can see these Mars warrior born on Tuesday. Maybe they're also an Aries or maybe they're also a scorpion. And they got a lot of Mars in their cycle.00:10:28:00 - 00:10:55:02Dr Robert SeligSo I know that if that Mars energy isn't in balance, then they could be too aggressive, they could have too much iron toxicity or on the flip side, they could be anemic and they're not going to be be able to fight the righteous fight because they're going to be the doormat and get walked on because they don't have the blood to fight the good fight, because you need that oxygen to go to the muscles so you can, you know, fight or flight.00:10:55:09 - 00:11:12:11Dr Robert SeligAnd so understanding the energetics of the planets that dominate in someone's chart becomes paramount to help move the case forward. And that's how I use a little bit of everything to profile a patient. That makes sense.00:11:12:18 - 00:11:33:17John BumpusMakes sense to me. I know I have I've studied a lot, a lot of the natural art. So astrology is not one I actually really got too much into. And I it was part of our curriculum. It's just I always had this aversion for it because I looked at it and I was like, that's complicated. And I felt overwhelmed and I just kind of danced away from it.00:11:34:14 - 00:12:00:18John BumpusBut I do know that, like, when I studied herbalism, it's completely intact. They talk about mandatory aspects of herbs and different planetary aspects of organs as well. And I didn't get too much into it much further than that. But when I was doing my own reading, it came to this interesting idea that astrology was practiced by most physicians up until like the 17th century.00:12:00:18 - 00:12:10:10John BumpusAnd that was like if you were like a doctor, you would have studied astrology and incorporated it in your practice. Do you have any thoughts on that or.00:12:10:15 - 00:12:54:17Dr Robert SeligYes, absolutely. The property is the father of modern medicine member. He gave us that famous quote that it would be they medicine, medicine, they food. His other quote was, You can't call yourself the doctor if you're not well schooled. In verse in astrology. So when I read that quote, I said, no, I got to study astrology. So as soon as I had graduated chiropractic school, I discovered homeopathy and started studying that and got into the energetics and got into the astrology component to it because every alchemist, Paracelsus is saying your handyman, they were truly alchemist and alchemists understand the energetics of the cosmos.00:12:54:23 - 00:13:19:03Dr Robert SeligAnd so I wanted to bring those two worlds together where we're looking at science, which is our physiology, our biochemistry and all the stuff that we love. But then we have the art that's the alchemy. So when the art in the science come together, now we have a true healing modality to really raise the vibration because it's all energy, energy, vibration, frequency.00:13:19:09 - 00:13:43:18Dr Robert SeligAnd so Tesla told us about that. Every great clinician of the past has always told us about that. So energy animates matter. So we have to understand the energetics. If we're going to really understand how we can see the pathology in a case we have to understand what is the energetic block. And then we had energy based medicines to help us move the case.00:13:43:23 - 00:14:10:18Dr Robert SeligAnd then we can look at the energetics of the minerals when we're doing mineral balancing so we can see some of the shortcomings in some of the over exaggerations, the under exaggerations of the energetics of what the metal represents is it corresponds to a planet. And so I'll just putting that all together is really has been kind of my life's journey and always discovering new things and just trying to find Mineral Planet correspondence.00:14:10:18 - 00:14:33:13Dr Robert SeligAnd that is not easy to do because there's not a lot of information on that. So my research is really limited, but I keep digging and digging and keep discovering gems here and there. And it's been an amazing journey of putting this whole world of the art and the science together because that's where the next step in medicine has to go.00:14:34:07 - 00:15:12:13Dr Robert SeligAnd if we just have a myopic view and we're just looking at biochemistry and trying to manipulate the minerals and stuff like that, you know, we have to understand there is a vital force, a life force that we don't truly understand everything about it. But understanding the energetics behind gives us a chance to really encapsulate all of it, to put it together so we can, you know, when I'm prescribing homeopathic remedies or when I see someone that's in a calcium shell or low, I understand some of the energetics behind what the calcium shell represents or what the fallout is.00:15:12:13 - 00:15:30:05Dr Robert SeligI'm going to go right to the plant Saturn, and then I'm going to understand the themes of Saturn and see some of these themes in the patient. And that gives me insight in how I can prescribe some homeopathic to help in that department. So that was long winded as a.00:15:30:05 - 00:15:55:11John BumpusWhole lot there. So like first I just wanted to let's see if we can unpack it a little bit. So merging the, the unknown with the known world, the unknown is like that mysterious, subtle reality where human instrument can really delve into the energetics of things, the mind. And then there's the objective, which is more measuring with, you know, some sort of device or something.00:15:55:11 - 00:16:18:00John BumpusIt's subjective and objective, right? Subjective is how you feel, your thoughts. It's kind of a private world. The objective world is more what you can measure, what you can see, what other third person can see, you know, physical signs of what's going on with the person whereas symptoms sometimes can be a little bit more private that you have to kind of get that out of someone.00:16:18:01 - 00:16:48:07John BumpusSo when you merge the subjective and the objective together, you get a truly holistic understanding of what's going on with someone. I think that's what you're touching on with going like the energetics and the physics. There is kind of that one, which I think is fantastic. You know, the other thing you touched on a lot of stuff. So the other one you talked about the vital life force by the life force is called a lot of different things in different practical, different traditional medicines.00:16:48:07 - 00:17:22:03John BumpusRight. I like to call it the inner physician. You know, I think it's the healer that any practitioner, if you go and see the outer physician, the doctor, a lot of people go to them and they think, hey, that person's going to heal me. I need to go to this majestic doctor and they're going to heal me. And any true physician, maybe you can call a doctor about, you know, the true healer and even the true, you know, path of a doctor is to encourage the persons or the patients or the client's own healing ability.00:17:22:20 - 00:17:36:19John BumpusAnd that's what's going to do all the magic, whether or not it's physical minerals, homeopathy, acupuncture, whatever you're going to do, you're trying to encourage that vital life force to do its work. That inner physician, you know, that inner killer.00:17:37:13 - 00:17:59:21Dr Robert SeligThat's a good name. I like that. The inner healer. But the vital force to me is so important. So when we see someone going through a mineral balancing program, we as clinicians have to be able to delineate, you know, when when something happens, are they getting worse or are they getting better? So I have to be able to see where the vital force is going.00:18:00:02 - 00:18:23:09Dr Robert SeligYou may be dumping a metal that may cause some acute symptoms that show up, but I have to be able to delineate is this really are we you know, is the disease progressing or is the disease reverse a feeling and always looking at the vital force? You know, and then when you think about part of the healing journey, is, you know, every doctor takes that Hippocratic Oath.00:18:23:09 - 00:18:46:21Dr Robert SeligAnd under the oracle of Delphi, under the God of Apollo, it says physician. No, they self physician healed thyself. So every physician was worth their weight and soul must be working on themselves. So we earned the right as we heal ourselves. Then we earned the right of passage to help others. And so if we don't work on ourselves, then we become the hypocrite.00:18:47:02 - 00:19:12:18Dr Robert SeligYou know, just we're talking smack and we're you know. So I think it's so important that every clinician in the healing tradition is always working on themself when that's part of has been my quest because I always trusted that my body will heal whatever comes my way. And I've dealt with, you know, broken bones and bad teeth and, you know, gazillion things along the way to dealing with my own copper toxicity.00:19:13:00 - 00:19:35:22Dr Robert SeligBut I knew that I would eventually, you know, take it to that next level. And I never gave up when I get a moving, but I always remembered physician, know thyself, heal thyself. And so then I've taken that to heart so I can be, you know, the best practitioner for my patients in my environment that I answer that question or do I leave something out?00:19:35:23 - 00:20:01:11John BumpusIt's just I wasn't really a person it was just kind of like a statement that I never had the vital life force, you know, like it's an interesting you touch thing, like the healing reaction, the disease reaction, and going across the razor there where if an exaggerated healing response goes too long, at least in my perspective, is that all symptoms are signs of the body trying to heal.00:20:01:11 - 00:20:30:16John BumpusIt's the vital life force doing something. But so if all if that's true, then someone with a symptom or sign or whatever that they've had for five, ten years, it's the body attempted cure. But doesn't, you know, it's like so it just doesn't completely get there. So they have this disease reaction rather than the healing reaction. It's a matter of perspective and how long it's taken and if it was able to actually do it right.00:20:30:16 - 00:20:42:23John BumpusSomeone always has headaches or whatever. That's a sign symptom, but they can be temporary if you're dumping metals or they could be chronic. Both are the result of the by the life force. Do you agree with that part?00:20:43:18 - 00:21:02:16Dr Robert SeligOh yeah. You know, just kind of working with many patients. You see that they're going through a metal dump. I had this, you know, she's in her seventies and she had an extreme mercury dump. So I saw her here test. I knew she was dumping copious amounts of mercury, which is great. You always want those metals coming out.00:21:03:02 - 00:21:40:01Dr Robert SeligBut the mercury dump irritated the kidney's causing her blood pressure to spike. So her blood pressure went like one 85, over 110, and people are freaking out. I said, I had to tell her, I go, you can go to the emergency room and they'll undo everything that we've worked hard. If we dog it out and we manage this and we slow some things down add a couple things there, we can get that blood pressure, you know, give me a week or so, we'll get that blood pressure back, you know, it'll come back to Earth and as we're dumping this metal, yeah, it's going to irritate the kidney.00:21:40:01 - 00:22:03:20Dr Robert SeligSo she was courageous and said, you know, I understand that I'm not going to go to the doctors and have them put me on, you know, diuretics or calcium channel blockers or angiotensin medications. She wanted to do it the natural way, and she knew that she could go through this, you know, aggravation of having the high blood pressure, which caused her eyes to be a little bit dizzy, a little bit of headache.00:22:04:01 - 00:22:25:06Dr Robert SeligBut she got it out within a week her blood pressure came back to her. And so it took courage that we didn't panic. But, you know, when you see someone's blood pressure like alarmingly high, you know, I knew that I had about a month before I had to worry about a stroke or heart attack or something serious. So I was you know, I gave her full disclosure.00:22:25:06 - 00:22:50:12Dr Robert SeligI said go to the emergency room if you want, but they're not going to really fix what we've been working on, you know, and getting you healthy. So she dogged it out and was courageous and went on the hero's journey. And she's still doing great. So those are some of the things that we see in everyday practice. So we may see someone that had eczema as a kid and all of a sudden we put them on a mineral balancing program.00:22:50:18 - 00:23:09:17Dr Robert SeligAll of a sudden that eczema comes back. So I'm looking at it from the laws of cure that's a good thing. So I got to make that eczema where it's where it's tolerable, where it's not going to really, you know, psychologically throw them off or physiologically throw them off where they have the courage to get through it and meet the symptom.00:23:09:17 - 00:23:34:04Dr Robert SeligDoable, but understanding it's part of the laws of cure as they go on this healing quest because that eczema that was suppressed with, you know, steroids or whatever, they were taken, now it's showing its face. So now we're feeling wasn't healed, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. So that's part of the laws of cure. So that's why mineral balancing is such a fascinating thing.00:23:35:00 - 00:23:59:02John BumpusIt's when we talk about retracing, which I think is what you're kind of alluding to there, where you could have something in your past and then it starts to come up again. Is that where you're kind of touching on or just someone that's been involved? Okay, cool. Yeah. Now that is, that's me. And when that happens, to people, sometimes they're like in disbelief when you first tell them about it.00:23:59:02 - 00:24:28:00John BumpusBecause I always tell everyone that healing reactions are going to come up. You know, you probably might not feel great. Sometimes they don't expect just a, you know, a plus energy all the time, like the body does healing. And it has to rest for certain points and whatnot. But retracing is a fascinating one. We have people with gold ear infections or people that had chronic bronchitis growing up that now have throat stuff starts to come up again and they are coughing up things and they think they have a cold and they don't.00:24:28:01 - 00:24:42:13John BumpusAnd that, you know, fascinating work and it's yet are you trying to dip into like that homeopathic idea where you go from the top down or know from the bottom up from the inward to the outward side out?00:24:42:23 - 00:25:02:17Dr Robert SeligYeah, absolutely. As part of the laws of cure. And that's where when I'm using homeopathy, so when we're going through a mineral balancing program and so on, that have we'll use the eczema as a child example. And also that eczema shows up, you know, and they haven't had it in 15, 20 years. They've been symptom free. Now all of a sudden it shows up.00:25:03:01 - 00:25:31:12Dr Robert SeligSo now this is where I come in with the homeopathic remedy to minimize the aggravation of the, of the eczema that just was, you know, itching or ugly or whatever it was. And so it's always part of the laws of fear. And that's what makes retracing such a fascinating part of this because our you know, as clinicians the hardest thing is working someone through an aggravation, you know, do they they think they're dying, they think they're getting worse.00:25:31:12 - 00:25:51:15Dr Robert SeligThey think, you know, this isn't working. And I'm saying this is exactly what is supposed to be happening because we look back on the case history. Remember, you had eczema when you were seven years old. When you had that mercury cycle. We went into that, you know, that eczema flare up back then. And then you took the antibiotics, you took the steroids and it went away.00:25:51:15 - 00:26:15:21Dr Robert SeligAnd now here we are 20 years later. Now it's showing up again. So understanding the psychology and the physicality of going through a retracing is probably the hardest thing as clinicians. How do we guide them through it? Maybe we have to slow down the new trends, maybe we have to up some of the detoxes, maybe we come in with the homeopathic remedy.00:26:15:21 - 00:26:23:11Dr Robert SeligSo we got little things in our toolbox to help guide them through the aggravation the herbs, the retracing or whatever you want to call it.00:26:23:18 - 00:26:52:06John BumpusAnd I ask you like, you know, a question that I don't really I think my answer is probably going to be similar to yours. But when it comes to using homeopathy to help symptoms, there's some people that think if you stop the symptom with the homeopathic, homeopathic remedy, you're basically doing what a pharmaceutical drug would do. If you're managing symptoms, you could be blocking healing or sometimes people try to encourage it.00:26:52:06 - 00:27:13:18John BumpusSo for example, if you have a fever, do you use a sign, write the sign and creates a fever, or do you try and use cold therapy to stop it? Right. So in homeopathy, if you had someone say eczema in some way, it's a symptom. The by trying to get stuff out of into out of the body basically through the paddock system or whatever.00:27:14:18 - 00:27:23:20John BumpusAnd so so I'm just curious like you would be more interested in slowing that down or like what are your thoughts? Do you know what I mean? Like is that clear?00:27:24:04 - 00:27:52:18Dr Robert SeligIt depends on the patient. Some patients will say, I don't care about the aggravation. Let's just keep pushing through. Some people say, Oh, I got a flare up. It's, you know, I can't go out in public, you know, so it always depends on who we're dealing with, who's the patient what's their constitutional make up. You know, I whenever I prescribe a homeopathic remedy, I never look at it that we're slowing the healing the healing reaction down.00:27:52:18 - 00:28:10:06Dr Robert SeligI'm looking at we're working with the vital force to make it doable because it's a marathon. We're not trying to hit the home run. We're trying to keep getting people stronger. Every year they get a little bit stronger, they get a little bit more mineralized, they dump more metals, and it takes time. We know we can't do this.00:28:10:06 - 00:28:34:04Dr Robert SeligAnd, you know, one year, you know, healing is that marathon. So we got to be able to walk that hero's journey and understand that we're going to hit speed bumps along the way. When we hit the speed bump, we don't panic. We don't have fear. We look at it first. We make sure, are they getting worse? You know, we have to be able to delineate that, you know, maybe there's a cancer that's growing and I didn't see that.00:28:34:09 - 00:28:55:14Dr Robert SeligOr maybe it really is a retracing or her reaction. So that's why you always want to train I in your corner. And that's why having clinicians that understand the retracing process and understanding the importance of the medical history. So I never shy away from working with people, getting them through a retracing. I want to just make it doable.00:28:55:14 - 00:29:00:05Dr Robert SeligThat's my main goal. And so I never look at it like I'm slowing the healing process.00:29:01:00 - 00:29:22:12John BumpusIt's just an idea. It's, you know, because I know that there's different perspectives. So I just appreciate your thoughts on that because I, you know, did agree it's not like, oh, if I don't take my supplements, I'm going to stop healing. It's like, no, you won't. You know, in some cases, like you, it's like compliance, right? Compliance is the best medicine, not the best supplement or the best herb.00:29:22:12 - 00:29:53:05John BumpusIt's what you're actually going to do. And if you're going to go slower and it's more tolerable for you, that's better than you know, just going to town and just, you know, really detoxing every single day like some people do. I've had clients that are just like, you know, what, I'm ready. I've wasted enough time. I just want to go through it, you know, and they that's what they want to do and they want to just go hard but I have had others where it's like, you know, they micromanage every little symptom that they have.00:29:53:05 - 00:30:07:17John BumpusAnd anything that comes up, they see it as another problem. And it, you know, you have to work with them a little differently. You know, it's not right. One way is better than the other. It's just we all choose our path. And there's at the end of the day, there's more than one way up mountain, right?00:30:08:03 - 00:30:29:19Dr Robert SeligAbsolutely. So we in the can Exactly. And you and you said that it's about being, you know, compliant. You know, I don't expect you to be perfect. I expect you to be compliant with most of the stuff that I'm recommending. I don't mind when people say, oh, I'm going to be traveling, take a few days off. No problem.00:30:30:01 - 00:30:52:21Dr Robert SeligI don't want to be so rigid where we can't enjoy life and understand when the holidays come around or traveling happens or going through a detox or whatever. So I always want to be able to adjust to where the patient is. But I like that that theme is we don't want to be so rigid in our approach. We want to just say, you know, stay compliant for most of it.00:30:52:21 - 00:31:11:15Dr Robert SeligYou know, do that 80, 20 rule, 70, 30 rule. We'll get success and we will, you know, get up that mountain. But we just have to maybe go a little bit slower, maybe take a step back, maybe we could, you know, go into fifth gear and take it up a notch. So we always have to play where the patient is at.00:31:11:15 - 00:31:32:18John BumpusRight and so so when I see like some client, I'm very similar. I'm always like I'm really relaxed when it comes to diet. I understand it's important, but I always say eat real food you know, like that's the best they like. You can complicate as much as you want to, but like, hey, if you want me to go make the pizza, do everything yourself, that's way more enjoyable.00:31:32:18 - 00:31:55:11John BumpusAnd soon as you get in the kitchen, that's when the healing happens. Really not going and ordering someone to make you fresh pizza, you know what I mean? They like getting in the kitchen, being in the kitchens where a lot of stuff happens as well. But real food is important. And I've had clients, you know, they go, oh, I every time I go to my mom's, I can never have, you know, the pie that she makes or something.00:31:55:11 - 00:32:15:20John BumpusAnd I'm always like, just have it like like enjoy it. Because we talk about physical nutrition. Well, there's spiritual nutrition, you know, like the solitude of going and being with mom and having that, you know, don't just be like, Oh, I can't eat that, mom. Like, you're missing out on memories. And, you know, I got to say is like soul nutrition, you know?00:32:17:13 - 00:32:43:02John BumpusSo there's more to it than just. Yeah, it being like heuristic, I guess you're saying rigid, which, you know, like the the ancient Dallas. I always said it's good to be adaptable you know, fluid in like like a blade of grass. When the winds come, you, you blow with it. You don't, you know, resist it. And I think that's kind of like where a lot of people end up with that calcium shell.00:32:43:15 - 00:33:09:04John BumpusYou know, they get very rigid and they pick up the properties of calcium and the properties of those kind of rigidity and that the dryness and whatnot. And they, and they they kind of bring it out in them. So like their mineral chemistry starts to affect who they are as a person. Right. And as you start to even change and going to be a bit more fluid or a bit more relaxed and things, a, that alone can change your pattern into the right direction.00:33:09:07 - 00:33:40:00John BumpusIt's just it's not always just taking supplements, you know, and I often bring up this idea of like when you're in a calcium shell, for example, a lot of the times are kind of like frozen. Like they've just stared at Medusa and they've turned to stone. You know, there's fire, there's fight, there's flight and then there's freeze. Well, those slow oxidizer, calcium channels that they've gone through so much, you know, trauma or whatever it is that they're not restating and they become like a statue.00:33:40:13 - 00:33:52:15John BumpusAnd so getting them to be a bit more fluid with diet, a bit more fluid and open, playing around a little bit of taking breaks from their supplement, I think all of that is part of the healing thing as well. Do you have any thoughts on that?00:33:52:21 - 00:34:18:03Dr Robert SeligYeah, that was beautiful. I'm glad you brought up the food because I've seen every diet fail you may need to, you know, go on a keto diet for a year. You may need to go vegan for a year, you may do whatever diet, but every diet ultimately fails so I'm like you, I say eat locally, eat organically, eat seasonally and intuitively trust yourself, have the spice of life.00:34:18:03 - 00:34:49:22Dr Robert SeligDon't be so rigid. So when you talk about that calcium channel and that Regina's, that Saturn, Saturn is order and structure. When you become too ordered to structure, you become rigid. That rigid is that calcium shell. And that's where I can come in with, you know, many Saturn related homeopathic remedies. You know, you come in with the calcium families, the can't boss, the cow calves, the cow floors, you come in with extra motion you come in, there's a gazillion Saturn remedies.00:34:49:22 - 00:35:15:10Dr Robert SeligSo if you see someone that's too rigid in this mindset or that mindset, we have to soften it, make them more flexible so we can break this wall down. And when we understand that, ooh, remember that old saying the the macrobiotic becomes macro neurotic. So we want to enjoy food. We want that that, you know, we really want the spice of life to eat a little bit of everything.00:35:15:14 - 00:35:40:03Dr Robert SeligIt's a birthday party have the cake. You know you're going to make yourself cuckoo. If you don't understand, it's okay to have an indiscretion without the guilt rotting you. I want that freedom in my patients to say it's okay to eat, you know, within reason. It's okay to have your guilty little pleasure or, you know, once in a while.00:35:40:09 - 00:36:00:08Dr Robert SeligAnd so my goal is not to make them so rigid, to be fearful of a tomato or a peanut or this or that is to build them up. So they'll never be fear food because food is meant to be eaten and enjoy. And that raises the vibration when we feel that food vibration, it's one of the most beautiful things.00:36:00:08 - 00:36:20:06Dr Robert SeligSo I love that you brought that up because the last thing I want to do is, is micromanage every morsel of you can only have this many. Yeah. You've got to have this many vegetables are this protein and you've got to have zero sugar. Where's the fun? You know, life is meant to be enjoyed. Dealing should be enjoyable.00:36:20:10 - 00:36:44:09Dr Robert SeligSo we always want to bring the right attitude to our healing, whether we're upping the bills when we're you know, I always tell patients when we're taking a let's say we're taking magnesium. When you're taking magnesium, feel the magnetic energy of the sun, you're taking in the life force. When you're taking that zinc, you're taking Mars, you're taking the moon, you're taking that Jupiter energy into you.00:36:44:19 - 00:37:03:19Dr Robert SeligSo even when I tell someone to take a homeopathic remedy, I say, take the remedy, hold it to your heart and say, Ask yourself how you want that remedy to help you. So you do your own blessing, your own prayer. So you're enticing the remedy with your intention. That's all about intention and rhythm and vibration.00:37:03:19 - 00:37:42:21John BumpusSo you kind of incorporate like affirmations with that time that people spend, take their supplements, you know, it's like, well, that's beautiful. I've thought of that a lot. And my wife, you know, talked with me about that quite a bit, and we learned it from Flower Essences, right? You take yeah, like a pansy or whatever, blue pansy and then be like, Now think about you know, there's affirmation of this flower and that it's the remedy for whatever you're going through, but then also you spending time and getting back to that say, This is what I intend with this is a lot better than mindlessly taking something, you know, and, you know, it just, just attacked it00:37:43:01 - 00:38:05:16John Bumpusjust the last thing on that food was like when you were talking, it reminded me of, you know, if you deny yourself with eating that cake or whatever it is, but instead you go and you eat organic, you know, blessed by monks, whatever food you get, you know, and you don't enjoy it versus the person needs the cake and enjoys it.00:38:05:24 - 00:38:23:05John BumpusWhich one's actually getting more nourished there? I would probably say the person eating the cake because if you're not enjoying your food, you're not you're not getting nourish to me, regardless of what physical stuff's there, I think it's a bit more like you know, that enjoyment, as you said, is very important.00:38:24:10 - 00:38:44:21Dr Robert SeligIt is. And there's, you know, there's there has to be a balance that while you're eating is Twinkies, Ding Dongs and Ho Hos and crap and garbage. You know, of course, we got to have some some discipline, but people in the health community, they tend to get so rigid. I can't eat this. I can't eat that. I don't want these phobias of food.00:38:44:21 - 00:39:02:09Dr Robert SeligI want that food to be life. And so again, if you want to have cake, you know, get your own eggs, get your get some good flour, get the best ingredients that you can buy, make it yourself. And that's it. And that's where the kitchen becomes the alchemical laboratory, really.00:39:02:17 - 00:39:03:22John BumpusThat's how I was getting on those.00:39:04:12 - 00:39:26:18Dr Robert SeligSo that's why I love that you brought that up because we see we see in our business people get too fanatical. And so that fanaticism just becomes very crazy and that can increase as well or do something to a mineral pattern. Because we're not enjoying the beauty of life. And food is certainly one of the great, beautiful things of life.00:39:26:18 - 00:39:54:01Dr Robert SeligAnd so I want people to enjoy their food, to digest their food. And so that's why I really love the fact that you brought that up. And I think it's a great thing because not enough clinicians are emphasizing the joy of eating. So we better have a healthy relationship to food, not to control and micromanage everything, but having a good, healthy relationship, I think is paramount to really raising the vibration.00:39:54:14 - 00:40:19:21John BumpusYeah, absolutely. I'm curious about your thoughts on this. Is something I learned from Dr. Polyak, and it was that taking your supplements regular that, you know, if usually if you're in a mineral balancing program, we say take them regularly, at least sometimes three times a day, sometimes more, depending on what you're doing. Right, sometimes once a day. But it's that setting, that cadence, continually taking it to kind of shift things in the direction we intend to do.00:40:21:01 - 00:40:42:23John BumpusSo some people are super busy with their supplements and they will take them at the same time, always three or four, whatever it says for the recommendation. And they'll do that, you know, faithfully. Yes, work religiously. I don't know what it is, but but they'll just stick to that program. The doctor said, Well, it's a great idea to actually take a break from your supplements.00:40:43:05 - 00:41:04:21John BumpusRight? You said, because a lot of the healing happens when you set the cadence and you keep providing vitamins and minerals in, and then you take you don't give them one day and the body has to do micro adjustments now because it got lazy getting all of these things coming in now. And now that you're not taking it, it's like, oh, we wakes it up, so to speak, you know?00:41:04:21 - 00:41:19:18John BumpusAnd it was, hey, we got we got to use our reservoir our we need to do something. And he said, so a lot of healing can happen when you don't take yourself out for a day or two just to kind of bring that up. Have you come across that do you incorporate that? Oh, yeah.00:41:20:00 - 00:41:41:24Dr Robert SeligYou know, we say, yeah, I work a lot with the Magic seven, you know, so I always have that seven in the back of my mind. And we know that, you know, on the seventh day, God rest. So taking one day off, you know, take one day off where you don't have to take anything. Maybe if you want to take a little digestive support because you're prone to constipation, but don't be so rigid.00:41:41:24 - 00:41:47:03Dr Robert SeligSo I always like to encourage people to take one day off from everything into it.00:41:47:03 - 00:41:50:06John BumpusThat's why I didn't know that. But it's nice to know you do that too.00:41:50:17 - 00:42:13:05Dr Robert SeligYeah. And you know, I always tell patients I go like in the kidney our we want to be able to get those liquid nutrient minerals into our water so the kidneys will activate them during the kidney hour. So I'm always looking at where their weaknesses constitutionally and I said, this is a good time for you to take this remedy because it fits your astrological profile.00:42:13:12 - 00:42:35:15Dr Robert SeligAnd so there is that the energetics of things. But I don't hold it so rigidly where they always have to do it because every day can be a little bit different. So we don't know what's going to happen on any given day. So I'm looking for consistency and I'm looking for that. They just follow the protocol with freedom to take days off, post freedom to say, I don't feel like taking this.00:42:35:23 - 00:42:55:20Dr Robert SeligThen I hear a lot of people that they're doing coffee enemas. They say, take a week off from coffee animals and just let your own body just flow. And people say, Well, if I don't do the coffee, I'm not going. So you'll go, you'll be just fine. And then they're usually 99% of the time they're just fine. So I don't want people to get.00:42:55:20 - 00:43:06:16Dr Robert SeligSo did it just they got to do this? I got to do that. Because again, that brings out that rigid Saturn energy, and that can be detrimental in the healing program.00:43:06:23 - 00:43:37:04John BumpusYou touched on that, that seven, the magical seven, I know you call that the chakras and the life stages and stuff and you can tell on that that if you want. But have you come across this idea? I think it was in German new medicine. I think I recall healing come across those works that they talk about. Say if you had this health issue come up at age 24, you could like half that age and say 12 and then go, what happened at age 12?00:43:37:04 - 00:44:08:23John BumpusWas there trauma or something that come up? Or you can also go by dividing by seven in different stages to see different time periods where something might happen that influenced something to come up. Do you incorporate that at all like the halving or the divided by seven on the day you know, some people might you might see it in your office on this day I had a spinal injury and workers comp or whatever and you can type, I sat by bystanders, go work with them to see if there's a time when, you know, by two by seven that would come up.00:44:10:00 - 00:44:12:20John BumpusI know you use it in a different way with these it like that or.00:44:13:15 - 00:44:37:15Dr Robert SeligI use it a little bit different way. Now here's an example of Mark's Tuesday. So Tuesday is the day of March. What do we do in in culture on Tuesdays? Vote on Tuesdays, declarations of war on Tuesdays, presidential speeches on Tuesday. And of course the infamous Nine 11 was on a Tuesday so that's the energy of Mars. That's that marshal war energy.00:44:38:06 - 00:45:09:12Dr Robert SeligSo we always want to understand the energy. And when you look at the seven year cycle, so when we look at the Magnificent Seven, the seven visible orbs to the naked eye is truly the Magnificent Seven. That Magnificent Seven course binds to the seven choppers, to the 700 glands, the seven layers of skin to the seven cervical. Learn about the seven days in the week, the seven colors in the rainbow the seven verses in the Lord's Prayer, you know, the seven C's, the seven sins and seven virtues.00:45:09:17 - 00:45:12:01Dr Robert SeligSo we understand the power of seven.00:45:12:09 - 00:45:15:09John BumpusThis is going to be talking about everything.00:45:15:16 - 00:45:35:19Dr Robert SeligEverything's a coincidence then. You know, when we look at the cycles of the verse zero to seven years is the moon cycle. So I'm always looking at what happens in that moon cycle for the child. So the moon governs the nocturnal. What does the baby do? The first year of life? It sleeps the moon governs the breast in the stomach.00:45:35:22 - 00:45:54:20Dr Robert SeligWhat is the baby feed off of the breast milk? And you know, we understand that this moon energy has everything to do with the unconscious in the dream world. So nothing's going to reflect like the moon. So when we think of the moon, we think of the water, we think of the menstrual cycle because the water is the blood.00:45:55:01 - 00:46:19:16Dr Robert SeligSo the moon is a 28 day cycle, the menstrual cycles of 28, 29 day cycle. So we see that correspondence and when that moon energy is off because maybe the woman later in life is having, you know, periods from hell and stuff like that. And so that corresponds to that moon energy. So when I see this moon energy showing up, then I know I can come in with the moon remedy.00:46:20:00 - 00:46:48:07Dr Robert SeligSo when I look at the seven cycles, you know, zero to seven is the moon. Then when you have age seven to 14, you go into that mercury cycle. That's Curious George, that's intelligence and communication. And that's when we get a lot of the throat infections in the ear and sinus infections. And so we see that in that mercury cycle, and then when we hit age 14, what comes online puberty, that's the first copper timeline between 14 and 21.00:46:48:16 - 00:47:15:13Dr Robert SeligThen we go through 37 years sun cycles. Then when we get age 42 to 49, that's Mars. Mars rules the gallbladder. People understand that gallbladder is connected to Mars. Most people get their gallbladder removed during that 42 to 49 year window and that's the calcified aggression that wasn't dealt with energetically then that calcified aggression becomes the gall stones, the gall of like the bilious temperament of it.00:47:15:13 - 00:47:43:13Dr Robert SeligAnd now when we go into 49 to 56, we hit the Jupiter cycle. That's when most people put on weight because Jupiter rules the liver. Jupiter is growth and expansion. When we're not growing and expanding consciously, we grow and expand around the waistline. So most people get the high cholesterol, the bilious stuff, you know, the liver fire rising, you know, the floaters in the eyes, the headaches, the grinding of the teeth, you know, all the neck pains and stuff.00:47:43:19 - 00:48:08:05Dr Robert SeligWhen that liver fight arises, we got to understand that liver, Jupiter carrying connection. So we come in with remedies to help soothe that and walk through that. And then the final cycle is the Saturn cycle from 56 to 63. So I'm in my Saturn cycle right now, I'm 59. So I'm doing everything to focus on Saturn bones, skin, teeth and nails.00:48:08:17 - 00:48:28:23Dr Robert SeligThe first three months of my Saturn cycle, I have an old mercury filling that fell out. So that was you. I was like, I got to pay attention to my teeth. Then about six months ago, I broke this digit. So that's another Saturn energy. So everything right now I'm paying attention to strengthening my teeth in my bones. So I'm doing a lot of Qigong.00:48:29:04 - 00:48:52:03Dr Robert SeligUnderstand everything about calcium metabolism, and I'm really understanding the energetics of Saturn, which is cold and distant. So I'm learning how to be by myself. I'm learning how to do some meditation. I'm learning how to do the qigong bone during the seven year cycle. I'm ready for that. And so I don't break any more bones or any more teeth fall out.00:48:52:06 - 00:48:55:01John BumpusThat you do in calcium supplementation, I guess.00:48:55:01 - 00:48:56:12Dr Robert SeligYeah, absolutely.00:48:56:19 - 00:49:09:06John BumpusSo you do just cure. Everyone comes out it a little different. Are you taking it up to the RDA? Are you going higher than that? Over a thousand milligrams or just curious, you don't have to share.00:49:09:19 - 00:49:30:16Dr Robert SeligI vary from day to day. I don't say I have to take X amount of pills of you know, usually I take a choral legend, which is from Premier Research Lab, which is a calcium magnesium. And I love that company because they have the highest quality. So some days I may take a few more pills. Some days I may take a few, a few less pills.00:49:30:21 - 00:49:56:02Dr Robert SeligSo it depends on how I'm feeling. I'm always listening to my body. I kind of muscle test myself, say I need to take a couple extra more but every day I'm probably taking a little bit of a calcium remedy, whether I'm taking, you know, calcium or whether I'm taking silica or whether I'm taking promotion homeopathic or whether I'm taking other cell salts or, you know, all related to that Saturn thing.00:49:56:08 - 00:50:21:23Dr Robert SeligBut energetically I understand the theme of Saturn, but basically I'm working on my bones, so I'm doing a lot of bone type of exercises understanding that Saturn is you know, you have to understand that Saturn is cold and distance is the furthest planet from the sun. So you have to learn how to be by yourself. So that's where the meditation practice comes in.00:50:22:06 - 00:50:44:19Dr Robert SeligAnd then Saturn is death in darkness and aging. So I'm reading the Tibetan Book of Dying. You know, I'm embracing the death because I'm in the Saturn cycle. So I don't want to fear death. I want to understand it when we understand that we transmute it. And that's what when we're in these cycles, then we're just we we strengthen whatever cycle we're in.00:50:44:20 - 00:51:04:22Dr Robert SeligWe, we use that cycle to strengthen that so we don't break bones or, you know, cavities. All cavity fillings fall out. So that's kind of in a simple nutshell. And once you finish that Saturn cycle, then it repeats. You go back into a moon cycle of mercury cycle of being a cycle. And hopefully I can go through two Saturn cycles.00:51:04:22 - 00:51:17:21Dr Robert SeligSo that means and my goal is to make it to a buck 20. You know, most people barely make it into one Saturn cycle because their health in this country is God awful. So that's kind of how I use those cycles.00:51:18:02 - 00:51:41:17John BumpusLove it. I use, at least in my own life, for my own personal work, incorporating the energetics of like the seasons so I learned that Dallas medicine and we always go into like now it's springtime, so it's liver and we get with the liver, it's that growth energy because that's what happens in the springtime. Everything grows and then, you know, but when you're talking about Saturn, it reminds you of winter energy.00:51:41:17 - 00:51:56:22John BumpusYou know, you let go of everything that you've done in the past and you kind of like the trees, like the leaves, the flowers go within, everything goes inside. You know, it's like that winter energy where you get into with yourself again, you know, I just remind.00:51:56:24 - 00:52:27:09Dr Robert SeligMe that Saturn is the winter which represents that everything's dying and then everything will be reborn in the spring, which is that? Jupiter and energy. That's why the Dow is really where they're dying. Yeah. Even in Chinese medicine, we got the five elements in Chinese medicine. And so their fifth element is one word to me represents a tree in a tree can only be a tree if it has the fire, the sun, the air, the water in the earth.00:52:27:11 - 00:52:50:06Dr Robert SeligThen we create the tree of life, the tree of knowledge, the aortic tree, the bronchial tree. How, man, according to Steiner is an inverted tree. But we need the elements to create the magic. So when those four elements come together, then we create the quintessence. And that's the magical fit. No, and that's the beauty of alchemy is using it energetically.00:52:50:07 - 00:53:11:14Dr Robert SeligSo we're always trying to see where we're having a trouble with. Maybe a Jupiter variant energy. Maybe it's the Venus energy. And right now we know that copper is one of the most dysregulated metals in all of human physiology. So I look at why is everyone have a copper issue? So I look to the planet Venus and what's the planet Venus love?00:53:11:14 - 00:53:32:08Dr Robert SeligFertility, sex, relationships, are beauty. And so where do we have conflicts with our sexuality? Where do we have conflicts with our relationship? And when we start to grasp the energetics with that, then the copper metabolism will start to resolve. So that's how I use kind of the energetics of these planets.00:53:32:08 - 00:53:57:16John BumpusThat's fantastic. So yeah, so you do use the astrology with the hair test, heavy ground, like certain people, sun signs or anything to be more likely to be in certain patterns, or is it more like just using it, like you've said, with individual minerals? And then there are there are kind of qualities with things and, and just to kind of add on to that, maybe like there's ideals on a hair test.00:53:57:16 - 00:54:31:20John BumpusI don't believe everyone's the same. I think there's 7 billion different types of people out there. So I'm sure there's like, you know, an astrological perspective and say, hey, if you are a more of a Venus person born on Friday, you know, you know, in this time in the day, I don't know rising, but, you know, would you be more likely to be a copper dominated person and then they would have that kind of like part of their their hero or heroines journey of going through and dealing with that copper as kind of being like their life path, their life lesson.00:54:31:20 - 00:54:34:05John BumpusAnd do you think that's a thing or is that just.00:54:34:08 - 00:54:59:10Dr Robert SeligReally a matter? You know, I look at myself. I was born on a Friday. I was born in the Venus hour. I got a Venus. Venus plus let's say so, born on a Friday in the Venus hour. So I am everything copper related. So I've been dealing with copper you know, for 12 years. I go through phases of a copper dump and it comes down and I go through another copper dump.00:54:59:15 - 00:55:25:13Dr Robert SeligSo copper has been my gift and my curse throughout my entire life. So my goal is to turn the curse into the gift. And so understanding about how I'm kind of cultivating my relationships, how I'm understanding the sexual energy, I'm understanding about the art and the music and the beauty of life. So when I look at all these patterns that we see, you know, I've been dominated by copper since day one.00:55:25:13 - 00:55:50:19Dr Robert SeligI was born jaundice and have every copper symptom under the sun. So just by knowing now my sun sign, I'm a Saturn, so I was born in Capricorn. So here we have Venus attacking Saturn, and that's the bones. And that's why I always would break bones I've broken ribs, I've broken three ribs here, three ribs here, I've broken this clavicle, I've broken that clavicle and broken this wrist.00:55:50:19 - 00:56:26:08Dr Robert SeligI've broken many of fingers and got my teeth smashed out. I blew out my kneecap, so I've broken almost every bone in my body. And so that's that Venetian energy attack. And Saturn or Saturn attacking Venus. And so this is the power of understanding that sun sign in the day of the week to give you that constitutional profile because you're going to see that we're going to have you know, there's going to be 49, there's seven days in the week, but there's a potential of seven 49 potential all planets that can dominate in a cycle.00:56:26:15 - 00:56:47:05Dr Robert SeligSo that's why I always want to look at where the patient is at in their astrological profile. So I can say Oh, you're in a Mars cycle, you're born in Aries and you're going to have a lot of this Mars stuff. Mars rules the gallbladder, like we said, it rules the muscles. It rules the immune system. So what a mineral is always fighting for your immune system.00:56:47:05 - 00:57:16:07Dr Robert SeligThat's zinc. Zinc is the higher octave of iron, so it's turning on your white blood cells so you can have immune system. It lines every fluid in your body, so it acts as antiseptic for no salivary fluids. Menstrual fluids, seminal fluid, the fluids, the synovial fluids, the cerebral spinal fluid. So all the fluids have zinc in it act as an antiseptic to keep the inspections from getting into our fluids.00:57:16:13 - 00:57:37:09Dr Robert SeligThat's that energy of Mars fighting for your immune system. The Earth agony here is a Mars plant, and so that's always fighting for your immune system. So now if we're dealing with more blood, that's going to be more iron. So when we look at that Mars your your blood is red because of iron where the planet Mars is red because of iron.00:57:37:16 - 00:57:59:05Dr Robert SeligSo iron rules the blood. And so, you know, Mars rules the blood. It rules the gallbladder rules your immune system, it rules the muscles. So if someone's always pulling muscles and straining stuff, then we're going to look at that Mars energy and then I'm going to figure out which remedy I need to come in or how to manipulate the minerals to kind of bring that up a notch.00:57:59:07 - 00:58:15:06John BumpusYou use iron supplementation. I know that one of the black sheep hair testing and mineral balancing, do you use it or are you more likely to use like a homeopathic remedy or that kind of situation present you both?00:58:15:12 - 00:58:44:18Dr Robert SeligYou know, usually I'll start someone with the cell salt, iron phosphate, six X potency and that can actually change a lab profile. So you can see someone, you know, their hemoglobin is low, you put them on iron phosphate six X, give it about six months. It can change that profile on the lab. Sometimes I will come in with, you know, the mineral iron, you know, I usually use premier research of vital iron.00:58:44:22 - 00:59:07:13Dr Robert SeligI love that. It's kind of a plant based iron and it's very easily absorbable and I haven't seen any complications from it and I'm loving that one. I've only been working with that product for less than two years, but I'm seeing good results with that. So yes, I use iron both physically and I use it energetically in potency.00:59:08:09 - 00:59:23:08John BumpusSo just it's just putting some of this astrology in practice. You talked about that Mars energy with muscle strength and all that are you're more likely to look at iron status in the blood and look at other things to see what's going on. There and to see if that's playing a role or you're just going to go, Oh.00:59:24:14 - 00:59:42:06Dr Robert SeligNo, I don't just do here testing. So when I'm profiling, I'm using all the test, so I'm going to do a blood profile. So I want to know about your serial plasma. I want to know about your favorite thing. You're transparent. I want to know about the liver enzymes. And you. I want to know about everything. Where is that cholesterol?00:59:42:06 - 01:00:14:21Dr Robert SeligThat cholesterol's high. I'm thinking liver. So I'm thinking most of the adult populations walk around with high cholesterol that's not the enemy. It just means that we got some liver stagnation. We got liver failure because that cholesterol is so, so important and so we want to understand cholesterol, not suppress it with statin drugs. If someone really has extreme high cholesterol, we have nutrients strategies to lower the cholesterol as we're working on the liver, as we're detoxing the liver.01:00:15:00 - 01:00:20:19Dr Robert SeligSo so, yes, I you know, I kind of like using a little bit of everything now.01:00:20:23 - 01:00:48:19John BumpusThat's fantastic. I know a lot of the times when I work with clients, they're a little hesitant to go towards more testing. You know, we might be able to get a blood test and sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get them to test their thyroid. And, you know, so it's great that you're able to do all of the tests I'm struggling just to get a couple of tests in there just because I'm actually interested in knowing what's going on or, you know, worried about a potential Hashimoto's or something.01:00:48:19 - 01:00:54:14John BumpusAnd then some people just don't like to invest in that, you know, seeing what's going on with themselves.01:00:54:14 - 01:01:17:05Dr Robert SeligSo I like proving it. So we see that high, you know, you know, the calcium calcium potassium ratio is high. And we certainly we know that's the thyroid ratio. Then we do the TSA will say then you know, the T3, the T4 and the antibodies, then we see, yeah, your blood is showing that you're hypothyroid, you're here test is showing that you're hypothyroid.01:01:17:18 - 01:01:42:07Dr Robert SeligSo we have this correspondence from blood to here. Then we're always looking at, you know, so usually I'm going to run an organic acid test, you know, I'm going to run a GI map. So I know what's going on with the stool. So I'm looking at you from here. Blood, saliva, stool, urine. I'm looking at everything. So when I'm profiling you, I know a little bit about, you know, why is that?01:01:42:10 - 01:02:01:03Dr Robert SeligYou know, if you see a low on a blood test and zinc and so then you see oh, they're hydrochloride chloride, you're on the GI map, they've got low stomach acid. There's that zinc again. So then you see the maybe it's high zinc on a hair test. But maybe that zinc is being blocked by copper, cadmium or mercury.01:02:01:09 - 01:02:08:16Dr Robert SeligSo then we see the correspondence and the correlations between it. So I love putting it all together so I one quite a few laughs.01:02:08:20 - 01:02:28:00John BumpusI can tell. Yeah. Because I mean, I use them when I can, but I can't. I never get away with all of those. Usually it's one or two of them at night. But, you know, it just brought up this idea for me. It was like we were talking about healing reactions earlier and like going through some things. And then you have clients that get regular blood tests.01:02:28:00 - 01:02:51:01John BumpusSometimes they just do it anyway, right? The, the people that really check, you know, do the six month physical kind of thing, get their bloods every six months, and they might go through a period and they go, Hey, my thyroid is way slower than it was before. But they overlook the fact that maybe they're immobilizing mercury, maybe they're dumping copper, and that can influence the blood tests, at least in my perspective.01:02:51:01 - 01:02:52:06John BumpusDo you have thoughts on that?01:02:53:09 - 01:03:20:01Dr Robert SeligYeah, I'm you know, when someone's doing a detox, you know, so the the old has to die for the new to be born. So when we're doing some liver detox and we're coming in strong with the liver nutrients and the detox and the coffee enemas and a lot of liver stuff, you know, they're breaking down some old liver.01:03:20:01 - 01:03:48:10Dr Robert SeligSo then they go to the medic and they say AC is high. And as high as high cholesterol is high, they say your liver is a mess. And I'm saying, no, the old is breaking down, releasing all its content, showing up in the blood and urine. So that's exactly what we want to happen. So if you take someone's liver or

Rick Fischer, CHHC, hTMAPRick is a leading expert in HTMA, copper toxicity, and mineral education. As the founder of coppertoxic.com, together with supporting international research and his various educational materials on the topic, Rick's work over the past decade has advanced public and practitioner awareness of copper toxicity. He works as a clinical HTMA practitioner as well as an instructor. Rick is a passionate advocate for maintaining the integrity and authenticity of HTMA and is the co-founder of the HTMA Virtual Summit – which strives to provide excellence and leadership in HTMA based health education. Rick is also the founder and teacher of the Mineral Mastery program, a course designed to bring vital mineral-based health education to both practitioners as well as the general public. You can connect with Rick at MineralsandHealth.com or visit his teachings at: www.MineralMastery.com and CopperToxic.com. TranscriptAnd honestly, John, like when I've had, I've had two mothers now, well, one mother with the morgue situation where her daughter was told there's no such thing as copper toxicity was on a copper IUD killed herself. And then the mother went to the morgue to collect the air sample, and the hair samples showed sky-high copper.Now, if the denial of copper toxicity didn't exist and people were educated in this information, we could literally be saving lives.Hey, Rick, welcome to the mineral minded podcast. Nice to have you here.Happy to be here, John.So I have seen you throughout the internet with all of your work on copper toxicity and hair tissue mineral analysis before we get into any real conversations because I know that you're really keen to talk about copper. Maybe you could just tell us a little bit about how you actually got into hair tissue mineral analysis because everyone has a bit of a different story and how it came to them.Yeah, certainly. I began this work back in 2013 after the incident that happened to my fiancee at that time, with copper toxicity stemming in large part from her copper IUD and some other factors as well. And because of the denial of hair analysis at that time by her doctor, she was led on a.You know, a dangerous, dangerous path, and it destroyed our relationship, our family and I just realized for several years just into the research of copper toxicity, which. Can only fully be understood when you look at copper in connection with other minerals.And in order to do that, you also need to. Utilize hair analysis because of blood tests, and we can talk more about this if you want, but a blood test alone is not enough to fully grasp copper toxicity.And this is why hair analysis is so important. And unfortunately, it's it's it's a test that has been attacked over and over again over the decades, which has kept it off the radar of a lot of people with tragic consequences.Wow. Yeah. So you come completely in that copper toxicity basis. Most people usually talk about their own health, but for you, it was someone in there you were in a relationship with and you've seen the devastating effects that that can have.Yeah, this was this was an act of love that got me into this field. I mean, I have a nutrition background to begin with and the health background, but I was never taught any of these, these deep mineral concepts or hair analysis and training.And just as I began my research and witnessing more and more of the denial of copper toxicity, first of all and the non-acceptance of HTMA or the misuse of HTMA and the vast numbers of people and women, especially who were affected by copper toxicity, that just drove me further to really get this information out there.That's fantastic, because, you know, Leslie said the blood test is limited, and I think we should be clear because we both of us primarily practice with their tissue in our analysis that hair testing is limited as well. But it's just understanding those limitations.And then if you can't see what you're looking for, maybe you should consider another test. And I think that's one reason why a lot of medical doctors have this veil of ignorance over them is because they kind of live in this, you know, blind range.It's the ultimate test and then they might do urine or something if they're looking for a kidney infection or something. But they overlook the simplicity of a hair test. And to be fair, I think it's because maybe it's a lot like when you went to nutrition school.I know it was when I went. I didn't really learn much about new minerals. Basically, it was like, Oh, they're important, they're essential for health. And then it goes calcium for bones, magnesium for bones and ATP. And then you just kind of brush over it and then it's.Like your kale and eat healthy and the very fluffy stuff.Here's some food sources for all of it. And now they have put a vegan twist on it all anyway. But it's basically to eat a balanced diet, which is the same thing the medical doctor says. And when it comes into practice, it doesn't always pan out that way.So I think hair tissue analysis is a critical tool, but we need to understand that because it's been vilified throughout history and even to some degree, maybe there was a kind of effort to destroy this whole perspective of hair testing that we definitely need to be mindful about.When you know you and I incorporate it into our practices to be a little bit more open about, you know, the limitations, but also like its validity and, you know, keep hammering home that like this isn't like a, you know, a bio energetic test that one person might test you and another person might test you for thesame thing and they come back complete opposites. You know, maybe you've had that experience with kinesiology where someone says, you know, you need copper, you need selenium, and then when you do an actual hair test, it's like now you really don't.Right? And it's like, I like that hair scan that we see on the internet, and some people come to me and they go, Hey, I've got a hair test and they send me this report that was done through a machine.Do you have any experience with that?Oh, John, I have experience with pretty much all the different types of hair out there, and there are a lot of them. And this just adds to the confusion because, you know, people think that a hair analysis is all the same and it is anything but.There are not only many labs and and forms of hair analysis, and not all are focused on what we are talking about here, in terms of nutritional their analysis. But as you mentioned, there's a biogenic element to it where you place, you know, a hair follicle on a disk and it gets beamed across the ocean and magicallysends back a beautiful report with results. I mean, I've received hair analysis. These hair analyzes from overseas where someone got their tests done by the local lab and magnesium wasn't even included. Now, I mean, you and I both know that made these last one.It's important minerals. So how can you even do a mineral test and not even test for magnesium? It's shocking. And then I've seen others where or a lot, where the practitioner or the lab is simply. Advising based on the the face value readings, OK, so if we use magnesium again as an example, a magnesium bar can behigh in the here analysis. Same thing with zinc or possibly potassium or other levels as well. And without proper training, they will just say, well, your level of that mineral is high, and therefore you should avoid it. In some cases, they'll say it's toxic, you know, avoided at all costs.And they are not understanding that a lot of these situations where a higher level is elevated is being caused by intracellular loss. So this concept needs to be understood by any practitioner offering hair analysis. And I find that many practitioners are not trained in that very simple concept.There's also the ignorance to exaggerate those exposures. What I mean by that is if a person has had an absence of baths, for example, and their hair contact the absence of bath water and their hair magnesium as high, again, that should be that should be a question that any practitioner asks of their patient if they see ahigh level. Is this a possible exposure source? What about, well, water if certain levels show high, maybe manganese or iron? So I don't just assume that it's a high level in the body. You know, ask other exposures. Could this person have had to have created this high level?Can I just say something on that, though? So one thing with the contamination thing, and I think this is something we need to consider as well, is it's not enough just to say, Oh, because it might be on the hair that you're, you know, have a burden of it or even a toxicity of it.But it's also something to consider that especially in the case of iron and manganese in, well, water, that if you've been exposed to that for years and you've been washing your body literally bathing in it, to some degree, it's where a contamination becomes an exposure because you've been consumed.It's like copper. It's if it's in the water and you have acidic water or even it doesn't even always have to be very acidic water. It can still pick that up. And yes, it can be a contamination, but you're also being exposed to that.It's like a welder and gifts for a plumber or something. You're exposed to lead and it's on the hair and they didn't wash it. OK, that's contaminant. But there's, you know, it's still a source as well.Absolutely. There is that transdermal absorption that does happen. So if you are. Bathing or showering in water that comes from your well or in, you know, you're in a swimming pool every day that's using copper sulfate. Your hair can show a very high level, but yes, there is that transdermal absorption that also happens.Yeah.I just I think it's important to talk on that now. So that would be a high level that comes from basically a contamination. And you touched on this loss that you think everybody should be. Well, I think as well, everyone should be aware of what this loss is.Maybe you can just share that because, you know, people that listen to this podcast are likely they might be practitioners, but they might not be, and they might be working with someone that's, you know, reading every level as face value.So do you.Want to just share about that a little bit?Certainly. So let me give you. I'll use a very easy example. People understand calcium and magnesium for the most part, right? These are two minerals that you can go to any any store, and you'll often see the calcium magnesium bottle.You know, that's the formulation where those two minerals are kind of combined because those two nutrients need to be in balance, they have a relationship. So in their analysis, quite often we'll see a very high calcium level paired with a very high magnesium level.So what does that mean? Well, the high calcium level is representing tissue calcification. What happens in that process is calcium is leaving the bone where it needs to be entering the blood and ending up in soft tissue. Well, as a natural response to body then pulls magnesium out of the cell to put magnesium into blood in aneffort to keep calcium in solution. You know, if you go back to basic, you know, chemistry class in high school in solution basically means it's soluble. So instead of having little calcium crystals floating around in the blood, we don't want that.The body protects itself by bringing magnesium into the blood to keep the calcium in solution. So you're losing magnesium from the cell where the magnesium needs to be, it's going into the blood. And then what is circulating gets picked up eventually by the hair follicle as as the hair grows out.Then it shows up as that elevated magnesium level. And this is very common now. So this this loss pattern needs to be understood. And also even stress stress can induce loss patterns, especially with things like magnesium and zinc, for example, we lose those minerals under stress.Mm-Hmm. So when a practitioner looks at a hair analysis and sees a high level, it's very important to be asking. The question is what is causing the high level? What's behind this level? And don't just automatically assume that it's a high level and the person doesn't need that nutrient.Yeah, that's fair. And I think with the stress and if zinc in magnesium and even B vitamins are like the first things to be, you know, utilized to stress, it's not always that like, oh, stress depletes these nutrients.It does, but it's only because the body uses those nutrients in response to the stress. So, you know, when you do have a stress and you find that zinc go up, it's probably because the body's utilizing it. And then it starts to get eliminated through the urine or something and can come from the sweat or some otherplace. And then.The.Zinc and magnesium are really interesting because both of those are synergistic with potassium, so you can likely still have a high potassium level or even a sodium level. The sodium potassium have that balance, right? So we see, at least in my practice, we see a lot of people that come in with a calcium channel, but then they'llalso have an elevated sodium and potassium. And, you know, I think on Thai, they call it like a saw three years. So for a pattern where they're not like the classical high calcium and magnesium and low sodium and potassium, they're more like a for high pattern.We would call it Ariel or like a three hives or something. And those to me are really stress induced losses of pattern because of minerals. Because if you're slow oxidizing, you shouldn't at least typically have a really high sodium or really high potassium.We need to ask why, and we know sodium and potassium is correlated with the adrenal gland, and the adrenal gland is what responds to that stressors right with aldosterone, cortisol and adrenaline, even. So, you know, we always going to be mindful of that.So I get a lot of clients that end up going to like a natural path here in Australia. And then they'll go, Oh, we did a hair test and we've already gone through an interpretation and they say, Oh, my natural gas and my sodium is high, so I need to avoid it.I have too much potassium in all of this, so I got to stop eating so much fruit or something. Do you find that in your practices while regular people use that at face value and then make like a big claim like, you know, just to avoid something where you should know?Absolutely, absolutely. You know what you're talking about there with the, you know, the slow three or yeah, or four highs powder. And that's typically a slow oxidizer under stress because as you know, you're under the surface, you're you're still in exhaustion state.But there's something causing the adrenals to kick in aldosterone to increase raising the sodium level and then with sodium and potassium tends to rise as well. And it's often a loss I can. I can tell you that the vast majority of people have a deficiency of potassium to think that anyone's potassium is, is, you know, in itstrace elements tested by lab. The ideal is ten milligrams per cent if we see a ten mg percent potassium. Yeah, in my opinion, it's unrealistic to think that person has a perfect potassium level. It's not realistic. In almost every case that potassium is reflecting a loss to some degree, most people, almost everyone has a deficiency of potassiumat the cellular level. So then if potassium is showing high, well, is it a loss? Is there something impairing potassium from getting to where it needs to be? And I see this. This is another misconception that I see quite often among practitioners where.You know, in one test, you'll have a potassium level at, say, two or three and then the next test, the potassium goes up to eight or nine. And on the surface, that looks good. And the client feels happy because they see potassium going up into a good range, and the practitioner says that's an improvement.Well, it can be. But are you asking is it is that simply an increased loss happening?It's possible. I mean, I think that's the value of interpretation and then actually evaluating because the other one comes as you can have people that live on coffee and cigarets or, you know, whatever sodium and potassium razors that increase adrenal response.And they might come back and they might have a diet completely deficient of potassium, but still have a good level of potassium on the hair test. So with me, I'm always suggesting that my clients aim if you're going to focus on anything with your diet, focus on your potassium intake and then because it's not easy to maketo reach that and that RDA or the RDA, depending what country or and it was a 4700 milligrams. And even there's some disagreement among government agencies. So what ideal potassium is, but that RDA is only the bare minimum we should be going for.And you know, I think it was the kind of ethic people were known to have. Like, what, 8000 milligrams of potassium? We can't. Yeah, I can't get that much, you know? So it's something to consider when you find some of the potassium levels or even high that maybe it's not exactly the case.Do you think that plays a role with even some of this reason why some people say to me is not accurate because they would say, Hey, my level's good.Grams.All the time is if you're simply reading a hair analysis at face value, you're going to get things wrong. Mm hmm. And this is why, you know, training and practice is so essential. And even just I know, John, you're making a course right now, which I commend you for doing it.Nothing can replace at this time. Nothing can replace practical experience. I get it. Getting the training is is important. Getting your certificate is step one, but then going into practice and working, you know, not with patience. Initially, work with your friends and family and practice this because you may and I see this too as someone gets theircertificate and you know, next day they call themselves a practitioner.Starting their business and they're now an expert.Exactly, exactly. Me is is so complex, you know, I don't think anyone can ever fully understand all the nuances of HIV. It's an ongoing process of learning, but it does take, you know, I say it takes at least 100 hair analysis analysis to analyze just to get comfortable with what you're doing.Anything below that you're still an apprentice.So I agree, because intercourse that was a concern of mine was book learning without practical experience. So trying to replicate that in our course became a real challenge. So we ended up doing case studies. So I would comment about various, you know, I think I did ten or 13 different case studies where I would go through, youknow, how I perceived this task, why I recommended things, but it wasn't like the, you know, the student learning their own experiential way. It was learning from someone else of what they've done and why they did it and then what the results came back as.So we can kind of show them over a year or two years what can happen if you do things? And then, you know, and I've honestly even been like, you know, I just knew intuitively they needed this and it wasn't indicated on the hair test.I was just like, Hey, they need this new training, you know, and then it seems to pan out. And the other thing is, so we tried to, at least in our course, we try to replicate a little bit of that mentorship with that.And then we also gave them actual case cases themselves. So we give them a hair test and an intake form and ask them to interpret it and, you know, type of thing up. And then we also ask them, Hey, do supplement recommendation, you know, and we did it for three, but you need more than three, you know, but it was to. So when they finish, it's not their first time doing it was kind of our goal so that it was at least they're it's not their first time working with someone and it's their mom, right?At least they would have been approved for something they recommended, you know, in the past.So tried to do this. Yeah, that's really important. That's one of the things that I do. I mean, I have trained a lot of practitioners and just even even doing ongoing mentorship as practitioners are are getting comfortable with with a state aid and they'll submit to me their their protocol.I'll review it and I'll give them my suggestions. And having that person to bounce ideas off of is, I think, really. And until you've done a number of these and really get comfortable with it, and like you said, there's also that an element of kind of intuition, we kind of start to pick up on things that Ithink only come with experience, you know, intuitive suggestions or intuitive understanding of what might be causing a certain pattern.You know, it's interesting, and I guess because we were talking about losses, we also got to consider, you know, stress like emotional stress, physical stress is a real thing. It's undeniable, but there's also that stress in the body due to chemicals or toxic metals that we might not see on that hair test.And there's lots of times I've been talking with someone. I said, Look, you're going to start dumping LED or you're going to start dumping it. Dumping this or mercury is another one because you see the lower zinc, you see the last millennium and we see, you know, low thyroid and you're like, there's going to be some mercurythere. You know, this person, they tune in for the last six. You know, where is it? And then the next has it jumped straight up and then, you know, it makes the client actually really believe you as well.And you can kind of foresee the future with what's going on. But then also, it's just that like there was no indication on the test to show that, well, the level itself, if you looked at mercury or whatever one that that was the reason why they had a high sodium or something, you know?So yeah, or low potassium, you know, blocking potassium from getting to where it needs to be. And again, this goes back to what we talked about earlier about reading a test to taste, telling you you cannot do that.So just because you don't see any toxic metals showing up in the hair does not mean that the body has no toxic metals in the body. It's not immobilized at that time. So if you see a zinc level at ten or eleven milligrams percent, and yet mercury is not showing, there is a pretty good chance that thereis mercury in the system. It's just not mobilized. And sure enough, then on a retest, maybe next retest or two test down the road, you'll see that mercury pop up or aluminum or arsenic, whatever it might be. And you know, a client then will sometimes be discouraged because they see that as, as, you know, a worsening oftheir condition. And again, this is where the practitioner has to explain this is not necessarily a worsening of your condition. This is your body. Now having the ability to mobilize that metal, which is step one, step two, is getting it out of the body, but at least you're mobilizing things now.Yeah.Of course. And it can take, you know, sometimes years to get metals out, you know, and you are always getting exposed as well. So it's kind of like, you know, you're trying to empty a bucket that's being filled at the same time and you want to kind of encourage the elimination quicker than the utilization.And that's where we need to take advantage of nutrients and how they antagonize and protect us from toxic metals, as well as encourage the elimination. So, you know, that's one reason why I don't really like like any color protocols or something where it's just like, take your cue later and then they're like, Oh, don't take it out, B vitamins, it has sulfur in it. It's like, you know how important sulfur is for detoxing. You can't just avoid sulfur and say, Oh, I'm detoxing because I'm taking a cue later to do it. And there are some cases where too much sulfur is contraindicated as well because sulfur can raise calcium.And but that kind of takes some practice as well. Do I use a methyl donor first oxidizer? Do you use them like taurine or HTMG or anything?Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Especially with something like copper. You know that that taurine that sulfur amino acid is so important to help escort copper out of the body. If you think about copper and we can talk about that next, if you aren't.Sure the.Copper toxicity, the primary root of copper toxicity to get out of the body is through bile and what supports bile will your sulfuric amino acids and taurine is one of those. So, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm applying taurine pretty much with anyone with with a blatant copper toxicity condition.I tell you if they're not, you know, if you're if you're on a meat based diet, you're eating lots of meat, then you're probably there's a good chance you're you're getting probably enough taurine, but especially if you're a vegetarian or vegan, you're taurine.Dietary intake is is minimal at best.I absolutely know because it comes from animals primarily, so, you know, taurine. I guess I just wanted to comment quickly just on this idea of addressing a hair test completely based off nutrient interactions can cause problems as well.So it's like just just only because we have taurine and like a slow oxidizer taurine is a muscle. Groups of like a sulfur and sulfur can raise calcium. And some people will say, don't take anything that would raise calcium if they have the calcium shell or if they have an elevated calcium.It seems like you're not in that camp, Rick, and I'm not in that camp, either. I will use something, even though it might be somewhat contraindicated, but it's because they have a reason for using it. You know, like, you know, sometimes, you know, even just using actually calcium or magnesium, and sometimes you can't use too much magnesiumor something, but you do need it still, and taurine is a good example of that. Or even HTMG, right? Yeah. The really important nutrients. And the other thing is those sulfur amino acids. Maybe you have some experience with this drink, but when you're going through copper dumps or like for those that don't know it, it's basically likewhen your body starts to eliminate that copper that was built up in the liver or in the nervous system, it can even be in the muscles. And once it starts to come out, it's usually you don't feel that great A and then B, they can have a really strong mental and emotional connection.And using sulfur amino acids like inositol coli, methionine, you know, taurine, even niacin can be really helpful to kind of curve that cop or dump symptoms to use it for that as well. Or is it just because you already recommend it that you don't use more?Or what do you? What's your thoughts on that, Rick?Yeah, no, I do use that. I just want to comment quickly on the word elimination because I find that leads to sometimes a bit of misunderstanding among people who are new to this. So when we think of elimination, we conjure up the image of the body, eliminating it, getting it out of the body.Yeah, and copper dumping really is not so much the elimination as it is the mobilization. Copper dumping is the mobilization of the copper out of cell and tissue into the bloodstream, and now it's mobilized. Things are dumping and then elimination is the next step is getting it out of body.Thanks for that question, because I just kind of, you know, breeze over it a little bit. But no, you're absolutely right. It is like that.Mm-Hmm. So in terms of the elimination aspect, yes, taurine and the sulfur amino acids are definitely or yes, sulfur compounds are definitely important for that. And it is during that dumping phase where copper is being stirred up and floating around in the blood that the reactions typically amplify.People don't feel good, and it's going to lead to the the heightened anxiety, the heightened panic reactions because there's that hypoglycemic reaction and this increasing adrenaline at that same time and adrenaline and anxiety and panic hormones. So, yeah, copper dumping from, I would say, most people who are truly copper toxic is not a fun experience.So again, then comes the education. People feel worse initially, and if they're not taught that this is part of the process, they might give up. And likewise, just because a person feels better immediately, does that necessarily mean that their healed, you know, likely not.You can drink. You know, boatloads of coffee and get a buzz and seal all revved up and stimulated and high energy, but does that mean your body is functioning optimally and you're in, you know, your energy is actually really good?No, it's a stimulant, and copper actually has a similar effect. Copper has a similar effect on the brain is the amphetamine. So then people are buying their copper supplements and getting, you know, feeling good initially, and they're not being taught about coppers effect on, you know, that mechanism, how it's a stimulant initially.So you have a lot of clients that initially come to you to feel better. And are you the one of the I know I do it. I usually tell them where you might feel worse. And then again, in the long term, you can feel better.But you know, once we start improving the body and taking away some crutches, you might not always feel the best ever. And you know, I say this to like, you know, even potential client. I'm a terrible salesperson because I'll tell them, like, you know, yes, in the long term honor on a program, you can feel better.But depending on your situation.I'm going to put you through hell for us.And you'll feel better only because of how bad you felt before. Not now. But that is a thing, right? Where some of those dumping and it's to some degree you can kind of predicted, but not always like you don't know when you're going to start dumping and then eliminating that copper.And some people will start dumping before their bodies, really able to completely eliminate and accidentally cause a real challenge as well. And it's hard for us to predict that with every individual, you know?Well, you want to be supportive. I mean, I see the protocols that are pushing the high. So let's go. Let's go back a step. A lot of my clients, the majority of my clients, because my specialty is copper toxicity and I work with well now thousands of copper toxic emails, a lot of them on copper IUDs.That is the the bulk of my my clientele. Yeah, and they're most of them are really struggling when they come to me with all kinds of health symptoms. The anxiety, depression, the overwhelming fatigue, exhaustion and then gut issues, I would say, would be the third thing.And then weight gain and other symptoms as well. But they're feeling like they're feeling horrible and all they want to do is feel better tomorrow. And it's not as simple as that. And you know, all the time I work with women who will have a copper IUD in their body.They take it out in the next day. The next week, they feel they feel better and they ask that their body is now balanced. No, it's not. You've simply taken a weight off your shoulder and in the sense of you've eliminated a toxin, a toxic exposure from your body, your body's breathing, a sigh of relief.And inevitably, you know, a month, six months down the road, they're struggling. So this is where the state comes in. So importantly, because that helps you understand what's happening with the mineral system. B, if you are, that's a good sign.Your body is not ready to be dumping large amounts of copper because it's going to be floating around and it's not going to be leaving your body. So work on. Of course, supporting the liver is supporting detox pathways supporting motility.Right? If you have to do a couple of weeks of some kind of a colon cleanse or taking some kind of a laxative or something just to get things flowing and moving, maybe a colon hydrotherapy as well could be employed, depending there's conditions where you wouldn't want to do that.But that's just a common sense thing to look at. What are your bowel movements? Anybody can ask that question.Yes, it almost every call, every day, every time I have a consult, a sign of where the bowel movements like know and they often sometimes especially those new clients on regular qualify. How regular are you? Are you going once a week regularly?Are you going, you know, twice a day? What is regular to that person? Because they might think it's normal to do that. And I've had clients, you know, once they begin the program, like at least the program I put together for them, they're like, Oh, it's a pain in the butt.I keep going poo. I think I'm going twice a day, sometimes now, and it's like, it's a real burden. It's got to be, do you know, like that's part like it shouldn't be a pain in the.Butt.To do that. But Rick, do you find that sometimes you know you're not trying to cause someone to dump copper, but it still happens anyway, because I've had this before when it's used, just give a couple of nutrients just to support metabolism.And then it just seems like they're dumping copper. And even the next test will find even an elevated copper that wasn't there before, and we didn't really try to do that. And then it's kind of like scrounging up, trying to give these things to kind of really improve, you know, bowel movements like this is to ensure thatit's being eliminated. That's what I find nowadays because I don't always try to get it out and it comes out sometimes.Well, look, I mean, you can do whatever you do with with nutritional guidance. And died in a very gentle way in that sense. But if the client has some major stressor going on or they decide to run a marathon or intense exercise, you know that's that's going to induce a don't.So it's not always what the practitioner is doing in terms of getting supplements like what is the person's level? What are they going through? What up, you know, because all those factors can induce dumping.Can I get your opinion on something? So there's a well known in nature may. There's kind of like a fork in the road where the roads divide, and it seems like as the road divides in different perspectives, it keeps dividing.So it turns into like this fractal, you know, division. Not everyone uses copper as a supplement. I know you work thousands of people with copper. So I know you have a lot of experience in this. Do you recommend clients avoid copper in their food?Do you use copper supplementation for those you know, people with copper excess or copper burns? Or do you just try and eliminate it all and antagonize.Come your thoughts? So first of all, there is there is no one size fits all protocol. Everybody is unique, bio individually unique. So I will never say that this supplement, this food. Everyone should take my opinion. That's dangerous, and I see that I see people who are copper talks.So, for example, a fast metabolism with low copper level, they might do quite well with beef liver, which is a high copper food, but is for people who are truly toxic. They might not be tolerating that beef liver very well, and I've seen people taking these because they've been told to and getting worse.So it's it's a bio individual approach and what I tend to do. We all need copper. This is also a misconception is that copper is all bad. It is not. Copper is an essential nutrients. Yeah. So there is this delicate balance between work supporting detox and detoxing copper, as well as supporting the bioavailability of copper.So it should never be all about trying to just detox copper and not support the bioavailability of it or avoiding all copper foods. Someone who has copper toxic with a very overt, clear copper toxicity condition. No, I do not suggest high copper foods is that need to religiously avoid everything 100% that has absolutely not intelligent in yourin your dietary choices. Know what's high, copper. Know what's not. And, you know, maybe avoid the beef liver. Maybe avoid the dark chocolate.I just had to ask because I know like Dr. X, like, you know, one of the pioneers in the field of copper, he had recommended copper.As.An especially. If someone has had high copper or they've been eliminating copper over a prolonged period of time, she would still suggest it. And his idea was that, well, the body just kind of dumps it all out, and it just tries to get rid of everything.And in doing that, it creates deficiency state. So he provides some to kind of support that. So. And I.Know.Dr. Watt's is very he'll use a lot of copper as well as those fast fours or something. You get ten mg, which is a big dose because they're trying to change the hair test itself. So that's why I asked is I know that like even the pioneers would have used copper, but that doesn't mean we have tohave going forward or at least be mindful on the dose if you do or consider food first in all of this stuff. So that's why I ask. It's not because, you know, it's a serious question, as.It is a serious question. I've seen I've seen both. I've seen more more so men than women experiment with pretty high dose copper and seem to be OK. I've seen also clients who've been taking copper or beef liver, and they feel horrible.And, you know, Dr. Rick Malter 40 years in the field, working largely with copper toxic clients. Yeah. Hill agree. Copper beef liver is not the best suited food for someone who is truly copper toxic. I'm somewhere in the middle in terms of I like me personally, I like to use.A product called beef organs or a blend of organs. Yeah. To when when copper is. When copper is low in the age to me, or I should say, I mean, copper is commonly low in the east, but in a fast metabolize or oxidizer pattern, I'm OK with the liver.But for a slow metabolism, I'm I feel much more comfortable. It's it has safer reactions to use a blend of organs. So, you know, there are beef organs products out there that have a blend. So there is still liver in the products, but it's usually at one fifth or one quarter or one sixth of the amount blendedtogether with other organs. So it has a much more balanced ratio of copper to zinc and iron.Okay. No, I appreciate that. You know, I've personally, I've had issues taking liver supplements, but I'm fine eating liver, and I think that was probably to do with processing or something as well. And you know. But you know, I've taken copper as a slow oxidizer, as a fast oxidizer.You know, if I might be this masculine Dan's a little different than the females. I've had clients where I'll try one approach, you know, and it might not work. And then I'll change to a different, you know, methodology because it just doesn't seem to be going the way that it's been expected, you know, kind of expected thingsto turn. So I'm kind of in the middle to where I'll use it sometimes. But then sometimes it's just that sometimes even that intuition, you just go, No, I do that. So, so I guess I got another question that a lot of people talk about using whole food vitamin C because it's got copper in the white tyrosinein there and say it's the true molecule vitamin C DS that you open to using just ascorbic acid because that can lower copper.Right?No, I agree with the use of force and vitamin C, and this is another controversial topic, as you said about it, agrees with this. But there is a copper molecule in the whole copper, iron and in the whole food c molecule.It is more supportive for copper. Again, we're we're considering detoxing as well as supporting bioavailability of copper. If the person has a deficiency of copper, then ascorbic acid to make that worse. Same thing with with oxygen issues you raise, ascorbic acid is is generally not ideal with oxygen issues, but whole food is tends to be better tolerated. So yes, I do use whole to see when appropriate.OK.Yeah.I rarely use it. I recommend people eat it, but I rarely use it. You know, tell him to avoid vitamin C containing foods because they're pretty much stuffed if they try. Almost even meat has, you know, a form of vitamin C dehydrate ascorbate.It's not technically ascorbic acid, but you know, they're just not testing for ascorbic acid when they do analysis. So it's still there. It's just in a different form.Right? Yeah, I mean, I would rarely use ascorbic acid, except in cases of true copper toxicity. You can use ascorbic acid to help bring down copper in, you know, immune function. Yes, we can. All the ascorbic acid, you know, short term said we started moving system that that's fine, in my opinion.And when people ask me, can I, can I have, you know, it's my birthday? Can I have a drink tonight? You know, can I can I take ascorbic acid, whatever it is? What matters is the things that you are doing day in, day out, long term.If you give them something for short term, a few days for a week, it's not the end of the world. What matters are the daily habits that you develop.I think so because we're looking on a hair test an average of three to four months, not micromanaging your life every day. So on average.This.Is what you typically do, not the one off things, you know, because I just think it's interesting that people kind of overlook that one. You know, it's like you have to be this purist person and everything has to be perfect.And personally, I think you should be able to do some things that aren't called healthy. And I think if you can do that and not reap the wrath of it, that's a sign of health, too. You know, like, I feel like if you have a bit of, you know, refined sugar and that knocks you off your horse, then I don't care how healthy you think you are, you probably know. I think I think humans should be able to take a little bit of stuff because, you know, like what happens if you go for a walk beside a road and a car comes by and blows smoke in your face?Is that going to like, you know, destroy your health completely? Like, I don't think health is that fragile. I think you should be able to adapt to those things and rebound very quickly. So, you know, the occasional drink or whatever, I don't worry about it exactly.You got to enjoy life, too. You got to find this balance where you're still enjoying ice and you have the flexibility to do so. It's a protocol is too rigid, any rigid dogma. I, you know, I think people so often then rebound in the opposite direction because they simply can't handle it and then they'll kind of rebeland rebound in the opposite direction.So it's like they say, tell a child, no, he's going to go, yes, right? So and not saying everyone that is childlike, but I mean, I'll admit I'll do that if scientists don't take copper. I've I tried it.I took 30 milligrams of copper to see what would happen because, you know, I've done it with every new. I just took a whole bunch of it just to see what its effects would be. And I felt if I'm going to recommend a clean take, you know, 100 mg of zinc, I better do it, you know, andsee what that's going to feel like if I at least add my own personal experience. So I've tried taking everything, you know, high dose or on high dose copper, then what I didn't do is iron, because I don't really like iron supplementation anyway desires to antagonize copper at all.Well, it can antagonize copper, but I don't use iron. No, I'm quite opposed to iron supplementation. And just in the past few weeks, I've had to two clients, both of whom have been on high dose iron supplementation. one was, I think, 325 mg of ferrous sulfate or six grams of elemental iron, and she's a lady in hertwenties or thirties. And then another was a two year old toddler whose doctor had put this toddler on. I believe it was 30 milligrams of of. Iron is just.A big dose for a little bit.Is it is the epitome of negligence, in my opinion, to to do that to a two year old kid. And not surprisingly, the majority of his symptoms and this other lady, they're both their symptoms were quite reflective of zinc deficiency, which is not surprising because we know more than 25 milligrams of iron is going to impair yourzinc. So that's two year old toddler. Most toddlers are born zinc deficient to begin with being put on high dose iron for his age, depleting his zinc. Causing a whole range of health issues and same thing with this young lady.So no irony, I believe, is being given without looking at what is the underlying cause if if you are diagnosed as anemic. You know, it's it's the the sad word. You know, you're anemic. What is the underlying cause of that and less?You have ongoing really heavy bleeding or you're a vegan. Aside from that, there is very little reason for a person to be anemic. It's an issue to do with iron metabolism, and that's got to be supported first.I agree.And you know, I always say because I don't like using it, if any, giving any mineral gives me an idea. It's I like and I've had to do it honestly. In the past, I just had to because we've tried and exhausted all other means and it was like, OK, let's try it.And then as soon as a person started taking iron, they started feeling nauseous. They started having a lot of issues of cramping and digestive issues and all of this. And it was like, I know what it is, is the iron, right?And that's why we don't like recommending it. But then, you know, I've had to I've had to recommend by, in some cases, a pregnancy near that last trimester. The baby starts taking a lot of the woman's blood. They didn't have good the kind of getting in a rock and a hard place as a practitioner and things likethat. So I have used it in the past and recommended it. But even then, sporadic use. You know, you don't have to take 30, 40, 60 mg every day. Take it. Occasionally, it's still going to bump your overall thing and on average, you'll have a higher iron intake, right?But yeah, I've had I've had to use it just had to be honest.Yeah. And like anything, whether it's iron, whether it's copper, zinc, magnesium, whatever it is, understand that all these minerals have interactions with other minerals. So if you're taking iron, then maybe it's wise to add in a little extra zinc because they they antagonize each other.And so if you're taking.On at the same time, though, hey.Sorry.Maybe not at the same time because they might block it, you know?Of course, of course. I mean it. The timing of the day matters as well. But during pregnancy, the woman's zinc level is also dropping right. So if you're taking a pregnancy, you've got to be mindful of, you know, of not making that natural zinc deficiency even worse or worse.Yeah.That's interference. He opens the door for copper to increase.Agree, I agree, but I agree. You know, I was thinking because we have a newborn that like a lot of the creams that they would use for like a rash or something, have zinc.Zinc in them? Exactly.It's very small amount. It's only a little bit of diabetes or whatever. But it was interesting to me because I was thinking like, you know, children on milk, which is milk is classically quite low and zinc. Maybe nature intended that you can always override like serum that their vitamin D deficient.So give them vitamin D and all of this. But it just got me thinking a little bit about how we use some zinc supplements and like, you know, even transdermal or something where as you get older, those things kind of go away as well.It's not like people regularly put zinc, you know, moisturizer on them. They usually use just whatever they use, which probably doesn't have zinc in it. So what happens, I think, is like this lack of consumption. And I know when I grew up, I went vegetarian because of the ethical reasons.And you know, I was I was one of those people. I thought I could get zinc from food as a vegetarian, so I used to go out of my way and eat ants. So ants were hot there. Black foods are high in zinc.Right?I'll tell you my first hair. She didn't think I was getting anything.I'm sorry you ate ants as a vegetarian. Did I miss something there?Yeah, yeah. Ants. So I wasn't like vegan. It was like, you know, I'd eat egg and have milk and dairy product, and I would eat ants, so. And cricket was kind of like I would do it, but they didn't taste that nice.So they were efforts, you know, like when you go to an extreme, how far more extreme you have to be to get something. And I was a whole food as I was like, I don't need to supplement, you know, I get it from food.So now I, you know, happily will take at least from me, and this is a little different for every person. But I usually go up to 100 milligrams of zinc and I don't have any issues at all when I take a dose like that, you know, in small doses throughout the day, whereas I've had clients like mywife who's not like, she's my client, kind of. I mean, I do our programs, but you know, when I first recommended her zinc, she couldn't do 25 milligrams, you know? And so I guess you would find that in your practice to people that can't all the.Time.Adobe.Guys can generally. Yeah, guys can generally tolerate a lot more zinc than women. You know, we were taking 50 mg or 100 mg is usually not a big deal for guys. For women, I, I rarely, whatever, recommend more than 20 fires.I would usually start off around ten or 15 milligrams and zinc. I call one of the more volatile minerals when it comes to supplementation just because the reactions are so individual. That's not to say that zinc should be ignored, and I, you know, I've heard, you know, not even to worry about zinc, and that's just utter nonsense. Zinc is imperative for so many things, including keeping copper in balance. Yeah, but in terms of tolerance, some people and women, some women can tolerate 25 mg, no problem at all, and some cannot even tolerate five milligrams or even 2.5 milligrams.It's that extreme where you're literally dabbing a wet fingertip into an open capsule and looking to think off your fingertip, and that's all you can tolerate. Yeah, but you know, it's a very individual and volatile mineral in the sense of tolerability.So you start, start low dose and gradually work your way up.I agree. And I mean, I'm quick to recommend the high dose, but I say that to every person start low and then build your doubt even with any program I put together, at least if I recommend to take things three times a day, I can't micromanage everything on a piece of paper of, you know, start this thatand then do that. It gets chaotic and confusing. So I usually just say start with the time slot or one or two products in a time slot in the morning. Start taking something and then see how you go for a bit and build it in.And because the reality is, it doesn't matter how experienced you are, you know, at least in my experience, isn't that how experienced you are? We can't predict how someone's going to respond to that. But even if we have seen this exact same pattern on a hair test 100 times, it's so irretrievable.It sounds.All right. So I guess I wanted to just bring up a little bit about some of the work you've done in HTMA. So you've done what copper talk sitcom you've done the virtual summit. So you're really trying to move the field in a new direction.Not a new direction, just to maintain the integrity of team me because I see it being quite the it's it's being led astray by different forms of TV that I do not feel are really supportive of the field of TV in general, and that includes the over automation of reports or just relying on, you know.So again, you'll be relying on over automation, different different types of ACMA that. Often don't follow proper like even at the lab, don't follow proper testing protocols. See, some is more focused on toxic metals. And then we talk about, well, is the lab washing the hair sample or are they not washing their sample?And if they're not washing the hair sample or regardless of what they do, it's not likely to affect the toxic metals. So if that is the focus of the DNA, then you can work with whatever lab you want to.But if the focus on nutritional hair analysis, which is, you know, relevant in this conversation with minerals like copper and zinc and whatnot, you want a lab that is not ideally washing the hair sample and following all proper testing protocol and the lab and the T lab are the two that have advanced this field the furthest andfollow, you know, all proper testing protocol and. There is it's very easy to, I think, attack HTMA when tests are misinterpreted, when HTMA is combined with all kinds of. You know. Woo woo angles and you bring it, you know, all kinds of controversial theories about weird concepts, I'm not even going to mention them here, but I knowit's it's been going on now for several years and.Well, incorporating religion. I think it a.Is religion, sexual preferences, politics, alien stuff, spirituality. I mean, if we want to be accepted clinically, we need to stick to the science and that is the focus. And that's the reason why for many years or for several years, I was we would get together.This is prior to COVID myself. Dr. Karen von Devora, Dr. Rick Malter, Rachael Neuman. Several of us would get together annually down in Sedona, and we were planning to launch a live event for teaching HIV to practitioners. And then COVID hit, so we switched direction and we ended up.Myself and Lisa Pitel killah, we decided to create the virtual summit. So annually we we run the virtual summit. You're one of our speakers, which we grateful to have you. And it's just about bringing the, you know, the real science and the real experience back to time where people can learn about minerals, about actually keeping the integrity of this field intact. I think it's very important. And then, yes, I do it in clinical practice as well. I mentor practitioners in this field. So yes, I'm well first in this mineral and I teach the mineral mastery course as well.So the mineral mastery course is the found is it's a foundational education for anybody interested in learning about minerals you. It's difficult to talk about minerals without a tornado. So I do teach about HIV, but it's not an HIV focused course.Okay? And that's one of the things that you that you're adding is your course is quite focused on today. But the Mineral Mastery Course brings a lot of unique insight into the foundational aspects of mineral related health reasons for imbalance and whether you are a practitioner or just in the general public wanting to improve your health.That's what mineral mastery is. Is about teaching.Cool. Yeah, because I remember Caesar must have been like at least ten years ago, and I know I'm a young guy, but I started off with minerals pretty early. I was fortunate enough to go to a few seminars and learn a thing or two when I was young because my mother was really into health as well.But am I saying that ten years ago when I first learned probably more, when I first learned about vitamins and minerals and the effect that they can have on people's livelihood and quality of life? And every time I tried to bring it up to other practitioners or anything, they talk to a doctor path.As a kid, I call up and ask Pat's office and just be like, You know, let's talk for a bit. I want to know what you do and what you know, because I thought, talk about being what I thought about doing.Cairo, I thought I went to. I called them all up and talk to them. But when I called them up, asthma, vitamins and minerals, they're like, Oh yeah, they're important. But our practice doesn't focus really on the Ramones and using progesterone and stuff.And it was like, I thought they were just missing something like minerals was like critical, like, you're made of minerals. How are you going to overlook what you're made of?Minerals regulate your hormones. Exactly. So, you know, I really appreciate you doing work on the educating about minerals, and it's not an easy task. It's like, where do you start? You know, when people say, Oh, minerals are essential. We're not saying like, Oh, they're critical.They're very important. We're saying, like, you can't live without them. They are essential to life. But people kind of just overlook that word. You know, they're like, Oh, hands, they're important. Like, No, you got it all wrong. You see, like, you know, you can't live without them.Yeah.So I find that unless somebody is a practitioner with, you know, a deep interest in learning or unless somebody is struggling with a significant health condition, and somehow they've been led to connect the dots to the underlying mineral imbalances.Most other people, they just their eyes glaze over if you say minerals are important. Oh yeah, I take a multivitamin.It's not had. I've had clients that are like working with other practitioner is really common. When you work with chronic health conditions and they go, Oh, I'm working with the practitioner of my thyroid. We're taking ashwagandha and I'm like, Great, really helpful for adrenal is really helpful for thyroid.What are you doing nutritionally to support this? Oh, I'm taking more binders and I'm taking this. And it's like.But when you die, you die and your selenium, your manganese, your zinc players.Exactly. And I'm like, Geez, you got to be. They have to be there like they don't come from nowhere. You know, I don't care how advanced meditator you are, you can't conjure up minerals. I know that there's breath areas that say they can, but I don't think so.Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, I've worked my client base. I've worked with everyone from the sickest of the sick to champion athletes, nutritionists, dietitians, people who have all the tools in their tool kit, functional diagnostic nutritionists. They all have supposedly the tools in their toolkit to eat and live healthy.And yet a lot of them have symptoms, even the elite, my elite clients have symptoms and they all they all have mineral imbalances. So does that just by eating healthy and doing everything right, you're going to have a balanced mineral system is wishful thinking.Things so, you know.Absolutely.I really feel that the mineral aspect to health and nutrition is one of the well, I would say it's the most overlooked and yet important aspects to health and nutrition. Furious six.Yeah, I think minerals are more important than vitamins because you need minerals for vitamins to work.Exactly.So even sometimes, you know, people are like, get concerned. How do you discern better thiamin deficiency in my? Well, I want to make sure that their adrenal function is working in general, not just thiamin, not just vitamin, but not just vitamin B5.Am I so admire practice, and I'll speak for myself because I don't know entirely about what you do, but I like to recommend nutrients in general and then do a kind of mineral balancing approach. So I don't want a client of mine to be deficient in vitamin C.I don't want a client to be low and be one and be to any of them and make sure you're getting at least the RDA. And then I'll do the other stuff because especially if you're working with chronic people with chronic health issues and if their minerals are imbalanced, they're likely deficient in multiple vitamins as well.So I don't care if they're far lovers. And you know, for low pattern, people often say don't give B vitamins, it's a too stimulating. Sometimes a little bit is needed, I think at least and I will provide them, you know what I you know, and sometimes especially that for low case.And I mentioned this just because I know that there's different camps of approaching it.But you know.People often use sedatives and nutrients, calcium, magnesium, zinc. I find that there's two different situations there were. Some are depleted and they honestly just need to be to put the adrenals to bed like Dr X has put him to sleep.Not like a vet, but like, you know, I make them tired. And then there's the other group that are just so depleted they don't have the nutrients to actually have energy anymore. So sometimes I'll give, you know, for a load pattern, a little bit of B vitamins and then slow them down.And for others, just and this comes from a conversation. It doesn't come from a mathematical equation on a hair test. You know, this pattern equals this dose. It's Hey, we need to give some more B vitamins regardless of the hair test and, you know, support your body's ability to recover, you know, so I'm kind of like inthe middle. So, you know, I think minerals are so important that I'll recommend them, even if it's somewhat contraindicated, sometimes on the hair test.All right.Do you have any shout outs before we end this conversation? I think it was fantastic.Yeah, I would just encourage everyone listening, whether you're a practitioner or just the general public to dove deeper into this mineral world and to learn as much as you can. You know, I want to say I take John's course, take my course.John, your is coming out when early next year.We're hoping next in 2023. 20, of course, is done. It's just, you know, there's a little bit of errors on slides. And in the beginning I had microphone issues and camera issue. And so like the content done, it's just redoing it all over again with one fine tooth comb to make sure that everything is good.Because I feel to be honest, at least without my course, is that I felt like there is a need for a more in depth on hair testing and not just hair testing. We go into, you know, the principles and philosophy of natural medicine, which is, I think your principles and your philosophy guide your whole practice.So I was to me, it has to be a part of your perspective when you learn a STEM, because if you come from it thinking replacement therapies the best or if you come from it, thinking reductionism, bring it down to single things is the best that's going to affect your practice down the road.And so we wanted to kind of at least educate you or our students on what, you know, at least the natural perspectives are. It's up to you if you can believe them, you know, like dogmatic, but it's at least bring them to the table and talk about holism and this kind of stuff.And then we did like a separate course on nutrition, and we just covered the foundations of nutrition. What does Barry Barry look like and do we see it in clinical practice? We might not find the diagnosis, but we still find people deficient in B vitamins, you know, and if you have a client like dermatitis and diarrhea andtheir memories going, I would be considering vitamin B3 know regardless of the hair test, less kind of support that. And we talk about the limitations of symptoms and the limitations of the test as well. And we still encourage people to keep going after our course, which is 100 and something.Ours was 150 hours of recorded information to keep going and learning because life is about learning, you know, get to start just like, all right, I'm an expert, I'm still learning. I'm forever reading textbooks on vitamins and minerals, PubMed articles, you know, reading wreck stuff, your articles, watching your stuff, watching other practitioners in the field to seewhat they are coming up with. So I really, you know, keep learning. As you said, it's just this is the way of life.Absolutely. Yeah. And so the mineral mastery course, which I teach mineral master recom this, as I said, is a course for both practitioners, as well as the general public going deep into the minerals reasons why we have mineral on balance.You know, things like zinc deficiency, which is so often overlooked and the myriad of reasons why zinc is important and why we have imbalances when saying consume with magnesium and copper, especially, I mean, I am the copper guy.So this course is the the the fundamental course for learning about copper toxicity and dealing with copper toxicity. This course can be life changing. And honestly, John, like when I've had, I've had two mothers now. Well, one mother with the morgue situation where her daughter was told there's no such thing as copper toxicity was on a copperIUD killed herself. And then the mother went to the morgue to collect the air sample, and the hair samples showed sky high copper. Now, if the denial of copper toxicity didn't exist and people were educated in this information, we could literally be saving lives.So I'm very passionate about getting this information out there and helping support young women, especially with this vital health knowledge.They're doing a great job, especially with your website copper talkSPORT.com. I go to it. I send clients to it, especially as soon as I get a test and it comes back with like copper immediately. Go check out that website, you know?Well, thank you, sir. I got a lead. I could probably add some of these to it. It's it's, you know, several years old now. But the downside.Is the way it's always that way you learn and then, you know, it takes a little while for it to reach the websites. It's also another reason why it's great to work with you or work with a practitioner because they don't always have time to update their website.Update saying right assistance those times. I don't have the time right now to be tweaking the website. But yeah, I was through it in a very easy to understand way because the corporate side is, you know, there's a lot of information there that can be overwhelming.So I teach things in a step by step progression easy to understand connection between minerals and vitamins, connection between minerals and toxic metals, and how understanding the mineral imbalance helps you understand toxic metals. How to detox those toxic metals.All of that. So one thing that in terms of shout outs, John, I will simply mention this for your listeners. I

John Bumpus has a discussion with Maria Allerton about HTMA and Copper Toxicity.