Podcast appearances and mentions of andrew marin

Andrew Marin - Bridging the Social Divide Andrew, author of Love is an Orientation, is advocates bridge building opposing world views, from the LGBTI community to the Middle East conflicts “Building a bridge is about bringing opposing world views together to figure out what it means to facilitate a new medium of engagement.”See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Andrew Marin, Food & Cocktail Writer for "Where Y'at", joins guest host Ian Hoch to talk about the best bars in the nation and in the city.

Ian, in for Scoot, talks to WWL listeners and Where Y'at Magazine food and cocktail writer Andrew Marin about the staffing challenges still crippling even New Orleans' biggest and best restaurants

Sometimes what looks like compromise is not compromise at all. Sometimes it's the hard choice to be a constant and a light in a shady and unstable environment. And sometimes it means being the one willing to be humbled and be wrong and change and grow in a stuck and calcified culture. I remember, after a few years working within a religious institution and experiencing the disillusionment that often associated the end of an institutional season, I started to believe that the most courageous and just thing to do when corruption or institutional failure reared its ugly head, was to leave; to walk away from relationships and organizations and systems I felt were broken or wrong. And sometimes that's true; sometimes saying “I can't be here if things are going to be this way,” is the best and right and most fruitful move. But sometimes it's not.I was deeply moved by artist Propaganda's recent reflection about sitting at the table with institutional power and remaining in relationship to an organization rife with leadership issues and flaws and even injustices of its own. His reflection is called “I Did A Difficult Thing Yesterday” and you can read it on his website right now. There's a lot to chew on in the piece but the thing that stood out to me was the complexity of his perspective given the complexity of the situation (that rather than simple emotions and an oversimplifying of the circumstances). The institutionalization of vision and mission is, I would suggest, inevitable. In order to find ways to sustain our patterns of care and justice, we create culture and set guidelines, organize efforts, and, over time, those all get wrapped up and we name it. Then things can get … tricky. In fact, they almost always do and when that happens, just as when a movement starts, people have different roles. Some will need to leave so that their critique and perspective are heard from the outside of the culture or institution. And some will need to stay because (in part) their most powerful position is still within the org and (in part) that's where their heart is. And staying can mean feeling an impossible amount of pain and pressure. I remember Andrew Marin writing, in his 2009 book “Love is an Orientation,” that being a bridge means being walked on from both sides. How much more problematic it is to be a connection point between many opinions, agendas, and needs that come with institutional life. Yes, sometimes the right thing to do, is to resign one's position and move on, voicing a loving and righteous response on the way out. And sometimes it's being the person who stays in the busted up space, feeling the tension of the thousand directional pressures and unanswerable questions while hoping and working for what can seem like the impossible change to come; the person being asked to answer would be or wanna be radicals who want to burn down every impure thing and slow-movers who don't know the difference between criticism and complaining. Many of my guests have been women and men who have been in and integral to their chosen cultures for years and even decades. For many of them, the hardest part of their vocational life has been the choice and effort to simply stay through “thick and thin” as it were. It doesn't come with the electricity of the radical's role or the badge of honor often awarded to the stalwart defender of a culture's reputation.  Hopefully, it comes with a quieter assurance that they're not just doing the right thing in the right place at the right time but they are the right person for that place.  

Andrew Marin joins Ian to talk about what's thriving in the city of New Orleans.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In June, which is Pride Month, we want to acknowledge and work against the difficulties and discrimination faced by those in the queer community, which can make someone more vulnerable to trafficking. It's ok to disagree with people, but no matter if or how we disagree, it's important to make sure everyone is safe. That's why it's important to better understand what LGBTQ2ia+ individuals face, so we can do that … so we can stop trafficking however it happens. Forty percent of homeless youth identify as LGBTQ+ and 46 percent of them ran away due to family rejection. LGBTQ+ youth are 7.4 times more likely to experience acts of sexual violence than their non-LGBTQ+ peers. And providers for youth report that many LGBTQ+ youth prefer to engage in sexual acts in exchange for a place to stay rather than risk experiencing the abuse and potential violence they sometimes face in youth shelters and foster care. Imagine feeling that putting yourself in that position is better than what could be faced in a place that is supposed to support you, but hasn't in the past or has hurt your friends. Hear from Wade Arvizu, an anti-trafficking subject matter expert, author and speaker about the realities faced by people in the queer community and how we can each take action.Resources:Wade's books: www.kdroche.com/bookThe book recommended by Wade: “Love is an Orientation” by Andrew Marin https://www.amazon.com/Love-Orientation-Elevating-Conversation-Community/dp/0830836268“Ride with Pride: With changing times, LGBTQ truckers move more confidently in spite of lingering harassment”: https://www.overdriveonline.com/life/article/14896726/ride-with-pride-with-changing-times-lgbtq-truckers-move-more-confidently-in-spite-of-lingering-harassmentThe National Human Trafficking Hotline information and resources https://polarisproject.org/lgbtq-communities-and-human-trafficking/How to better understand and connect with LGBTQIA loved ones. https://lgbtqia.ucdavis.edu/educated"Know Your Rights" section to help LGBTQIA people experiencing discrimination https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/lgbtq-rights/

Today we have an interview with Irene Cho, the founder and CEO of a new urban, Christian leadership training company, The InBetween. Irene is a deeply empathetic and thoughtful person who talked to us about her company, her powerful approach to youth ministry, what it looks like for people to help steward the trauma of their communities, and a whole lot of other leadership wisdom. And this is a bonus extended version of the interview for you, our subscribers. Thanks so much for supporting us! Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show at KTFPress.com. Hosts: Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra, and transcribed by Suzie Lahoud with help from Descript. Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to shakethedust@ktfpress.com and we may answer your question on a future episode.Transcript Irene Cho: Of course, we want to help them deepen their questions. Not necessarily answer because how do we have an answer for where God is? Like, of course we don't have answers. That's the whole point of the book of Job, right? The point of the book of Job is his three friends try to answer that question, “Where is God? Why am I suffering?” and they got punished because they were being know-it-alls and arrogant and conceited and prideful that they could define God and define this meta question of suffering in the world, right. And what God wants us to do is sit with people and say, “I don't know the answers, and yes, it sucks, but I'm here with you. Let's figure this out.” Because we do know healing is going to come, right. That's the Sunday. Friday is here, and Sunday's coming around the corner.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Sy Hoekstra here with Jonathan Walton and Suzie Lahoud. Jonathan Walton: We are so excited to have Irene Cho with us today. She is a national speaker, writer, consultant, and advisor having worked with nonprofits for almost 30 years. She focused predominantly on youth identity and faith development. Her passion is for the misfits of the world and to bring the gospel message of joy and hope to the least, the lost, and the last. She's got a Master of Divinity from Talbot Theological Seminary and a BA in Christian Education from Biola University.After serving as the Program Manager of Urban Leadership Training for the Fuller Youth Institute at Fuller Theological Seminary the last 11 years, Irene is embarking on a new venture resourcing those on the margins. She is the founder and CEO of a new leadership training company called The InBetween. We talk to her about that new venture, how she went about doing her powerful, empathetic youth ministry, and what it looks like for leaders to sustainably steward the trauma of communities. And we get a whole lot of leadership wisdom along the way. Sy Hoekstra: Now this is the bonus, extended, subscribers only cut of this particular interview that we're putting out on the feed for people who have subscribed, the occasional bonus content that we put out on the podcast in addition to everything that's on the blog as a thank you for subscribing. We really appreciate it.And so without further ado, here is Irene Cho… [“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] Sy Hoekstra: Irene Cho, welcome to Shake the Dust. Thank you so much for being with us today!Irene Cho: Thank you for having me. It's such an honor to be here. Sy Hoekstra: We think the same about having you here. And can you just tell everyone what you're doing with your company? Irene Cho: Yeah, so I just officially launched and have it registered as, you know, a small business. Hopefully going to grow into not so much of a small business, but really came up with this brain child. I've been in academia working as a program director for the last 11 years, where I was in charge of the urban leadership training at Fuller Theological Seminary. And my program ended and really was kind of faced with a question of what do I do now as I am hitting this certain age point? And, you know, I had really looked into should I go into actually being a professor in academia, going for my doctorate, you know, that whole world. Should I stay, you know, in some sort of ministry serving capacity or do I do this other element by which I really kind of want to marry the two together? Because I love academic research. I am, even though not necessarily my grades reflect it, I am a learning, geeky nerd, right. I'm kind of rebellious. So if I don't really like the prof or like the content, then I really don't do my best. I'm such a rebel. But I'm insatiable with the learning, especially in regards to topics that I am really interested in or really care about. And then, you know, I feel that there's such a crucial place for research, in particular research based in academia, but also, you know, usually that kind of research or information gets stuck in academics. And if you don't go to a college or graduate school, you know, some of the information that is so vital to those doing the work in the field and on the ground, they don't get that information. And so one of the things that I loved about the place that I had previously worked at was that it was an institute that really tried to marry the two.I think, you know, what they are presenting though is more for white, middle-class, evangelical ministries and churches and families, which is totally fine. Whereas my passion and heart is for those people who are serving in marginalized communities, under-resourced communities, underserved communities, underrepresented communities, whether that is what we used to call urban- you know, we haven't found a new, nice little catchy name for that- or, you know, even rural communities, anywhere, you know, people of color communities, where you just, they're not really necessarily in the mainstream and represented. And so where can, how can we create an institute or a learning space by which we're bringing in those who are doing training, those who provide that kind of information and teaching, but doing it for those who are on the ground, you know, whether they're moms, whether they're, you know, in small groups, whether they're your lay leaders or actual paid staff, you know, people who are doing the work, how can we do that?And so, um, and the reason I call my company The InBetween is because I feel that most of my life that's been the theme. And so it is really reflective, I believe, of what we're kind of using as our tagline that the deepest, most transformational learning happens in the in-between space, which we don't really talk about a lot. In particular, when we see, you know, movies or TV shows, there's so much where we have a starting point of revelation and inspiration where the light bulb goes off, you know, and then we see the conclusion where the person is now fully, you know, understanding of that information, fully healed, fully transformed, but there's so much messiness that happens in the in-between space.And that's just a really crucial part. You know, I always say this, my spouse and I, we talk about this all the time: they never show the conversations in movies that happens in the car, right. And yet, so much crucial conversation, deep conversations happen from point A to point B in the vehicle or in the whatever motor transportation is happening. And I'm always asking that in movies, when the characters, they start a conversation, then they get out of the car, I'm like, were they just sitting in silence for 45 minutes? Like, what was happening in there? And so, you know, really kind of that idea is where I want it to be where we're gonna, no subject will be taboo.I just, I'm all about transparency and really uncovering the various different topics that have been not necessarily talked about, in particular in Christian settings. And so how do we, cause there, there's so much hunger there and there's so much desire and need to have these conversations. And so how can we create that space for folks who are deconstructing their faith, for folks who are dismantling, you know, socially, anthropologically, what they have known in their life and what they have normally, quote, unquote normally understood to be the standard. And now they're really processing and deconstructing all of that and dismantling it.And there's not really space where you could learn from a professional, from someone who is an expert in these subject matters, because most of the time it's, I read a book, I'm in a book club, we're kind of all fumbling around and trying to figure it out, right. And so how can we create these little classroom mini spaces?So it's not just going to be webinars, which is most of what training institutions or platforms are presenting. And it's very important- I mean, we're going to use those resources because they're needed where one person is teaching and you just listen on the other side- but rather we're wanting to create cohorts slash classroom spaces. Like you're actually going to get homework. You're going to need to do reading. You're going to need to have these conversations. But in regards to specific topics for folks who are what I call urban progressive people like, so you're not really fitting in the mold of evangelical and you're not fitting in the mold of what we call middle-class suburbia, you know, we're trying to fill in those other spaces for folks who don't fit those molds. Sy Hoekstra: And it sounds like from your concept of what constitutes a leader that your training is very broad. Irene Cho: It is very broad. Cause I feel, you know, in these, in particular, in these spaces, there are so many who are volunteers, you know, not necessarily paid staff. I just, I think, you know, I'm continually wanting to ask the question of how are we breaking the standardized infrastructure that we have thus far in church, in particular church structures. What have we set up? And those setups don't apply to people who are in marginalized communities. Like most of the leaders who were in our training program were bi-vocational, tri-vocational. Like there's, there's no way, right? So they volunteer at their church, they have a full-time job, and yet they also are, part-time working, you know, at this other position. And then they have families. They have, you know, they're just juggling so much. And so I used to remember working in an immigrant church for me, in particular, you know, being involved in youth ministry. And at that time, the only youth ministry resources available were people who were white and very full-time paid staff, you know? And so they would have these get togethers or trainings and it would be like on a Wednesday at 10:00 AM and I'm like, at my job because I have to pay bills, and I don't work at my church except Friday through Sunday, right.Where our immigrant church, we don't have Wednesday night services. We had Friday night services because for Koreans in particular, which was my setting, you know, there's no such thing as midweek service. It's distracting for my children who need to make sure they excel in their SATs because it's Ivy league or bust, right. Because that's what the immigrant dream is. And so, you know, I'd have a full job where I'm working nine to six or whatever, and then where is there capacity or space for me to do student visitations and do all these things that curricula, youth ministry curricula, would say, you know, you should meet with students during this time. And I'm like, okay, but not possible at all. Sy Hoekstra: During your infinite time that you have. Irene Cho: Right. Exactly. And, you know, that was me at mid-twenties where I had a plethora of energy. What about leaders who have family? And I was single, I didn't have kids. And so like, how do we address these, you know, address and compensate for leaders, as we call them, who are not necessarily fitting into that mold? So I'm just always trying to think of folks outside of the box that don't fit into what we have thus far deemed as people who are serving. Suzie Lahoud: Wow, I love that, that emphasis on liminality and marginalization and just the really real and practical perspective that you bring to these spaces. And you just alluded now to your background in youth ministry and so, would you be willing to share just about that transition from the youth ministry that you were doing to, it sounds like your time at Fuller and academia, and then on. What did that, what did those transition periods look like for you and how did you make those decisions to move from one thing to the next? Do you think, in some cases, maybe you should have made those transitions sooner? If we could just kind of dig into those pieces of your story as much as you feel comfortable or feel like it would be helpful to share. Irene Cho: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, so much. Let's, let's sit on the couch and pop out, like take out the popcorn, cause I have so many stories to tell.Jonathan Walton: Chips. Get the chips.Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. We'll get Jonathan's chips.Irene Cho: [laughs] Oh, lordy… So I stumbled into youth ministry. So I knew I wanted to be serving in some capacity and in, back then, you know, if I'm going to age myself, you know, back in the early nineties, when I received what I believe is a full calling from God to serve in some capacity, that was not my, you know, first choice. I wanted to be a journalist. I wanted to be the next Connie Chung. I was like, “Oh, I'm going to have a penthouse in New York. And I'm going to work for…” you know, at that time it was whatever, ABC news or 60 Minutes that, you know, we didn't have cable news really. And so that was my dream. And God was like, “No, I've got a whole other thing planned for you,” for a year. Which, I took a personality test, and, of course, so much better for where I'm at now. Like I would have been a terrible journalist really. Oh gosh. So, you know, that was my senior year of college, I switched, or my senior year of high school, I switched out completely like which colleges I wanted to go to. And my advisor put me in Christian education, which is what my major was at that time. And I didn't even know. I, you know, I don't even think they asked me, they had just kind of assigned me that major. And it was perfect because we had a biblical major, we had intercultural studies, and we had Christian education as kind of the three Trinity tri-fold in regards to serving in some form of capacity.And so I did that and I ended up focusing on youth ministry because my, you know, I wasn't a very elementary school person. That age group doesn't really interest me, which, you know, already breaks the mold because usually Christian women are relegated to children's ministry. I don't, I love infants to four years-old, and then from five, if I could pass off, you know, the kid until the age of 12 then bring them back, that's my, like, that's my whole thing. And so, you know, people think that it's very not the norm to, you know, love middle schoolers because they can be a pain in the behind and they ask, you know, and there's just, it's such a complicated age period where you're growing into your identity and you know, you don't know who you are and you're full of angst and you're full of insecurities. And you're entering into this new space and new world where you're leaving the safety of, you know, elementary school age, where everything is very concrete and very direct and very clear. And now you're moving into this abstract space where you're learning new concepts and it's just a, it's such an angsty time.And I think because my own time period, when my parents got divorced, when I was nine and we moved from Los Angeles to New York, I moved from a space that was pretty diverse-I didn't even know this at this time- it was pretty diverse. And then moving into a city that was 85% Jewish, very upper middle-class- not even middle-class- very, very wealthy neighborhood. I'm one of four Asian kids, you know, at that time where I'm looking like I'm 10 years-old, when everyone is starting to blossom and grow into their bodily, you know, spaces, I'm not entering into that. And so it was a horrible time and I had very buckteeth and my, I hadn't, I grew into them eventually, I think, you know, and it was just, it was a difficult time period of anger and uncertainty and all of that.And so for me, I think that's why I really gravitated towards youth ministry, in particular middle school ministry. Because I really wanted to help young people in that age group know that it's going to be okay. And help them really get comfortable in who they are and affirm them and know that their questions and their anger and their emotions and their angstyness and insecurities are all valid, but also that you're going to be okay, right. And so as I entered into youth ministry, I was a die-hard lifer youth ministry person. It was like live, eat, breathe, die youth ministry until, until the end of my days, right. And I, I really committed to that. And even, yeah, now I think, you know, it's still such a huge part of my love and heartbeat, and they're always on the forefront of my mind of the next generation, and what does this all mean? And so I think, you know, after 13 years of doing nine years of middle school and then four years of high school, transitioning to high school, which was a whole other game changer because, oh my gosh, some of them drive and they can pick each other up. It's just a whole other game, right. And it, you know, you ask different questions of high schoolers than you do of middle schoolers. I feel like so much of middle school is prevention or you're implanting really good questions and helping them learn to begin to ask questions. And it's so exciting. I tell those who are doing middle school service or, you know, some kind of, in some capacity, that you may not see the fruit of your labor of these questions. And if you do, like if you get that rare light bulb connection moment where it's just flickering and trying and struggling so hard, and then the thought becomes clear to them and they connect the dots, you know, such a hallelujah moment, but it's so rare. But you need to just hold on to that, because if you're doing a good job with middle-schoolers, then you'll see the fruit of that later as they enter into high school and college, right. And middle school is really all about planting seeds to help them grow and learn to solve problems and conflict resolution and all those things that make it so exciting. Whereas high school they're dealing, I think they're starting to really enter into more complex issues and emotions and relationships and all of these things. And so it's just a, it's just such a different animal, high school versus middle school. And I think, I had a supervisor who, and mentor who, when he hit the age of 32, he was like, “I think I'm ready to kind of leave.” And I think I was 24 at that time. And I was like, “You pansy.” Like, “You trader. You're not like loyal at all.” [laughing] And I remember when I was 31 or 32, I hit the same age and it was at my, the last retreat I led, and I was like looking around and I was like, “Oh yeah, I'm a little tired.” And I, not only was I tired, but I didn't know if I was necessarily bringing the freshness that, you know, I, that I had when I was younger. I, there was a lot more, I needed a lot more sleep. [laughs]Suzie Lahoud: I feel that.Irene Cho: Yeah. During the lock-ins where I would just be with the kids all the time, I'm like, “All right, I'm going to go in the office. If there's any problems, knock on my door, but only knock on the door when it's like, the building's on fire and we have to evacuate. Okay.” [all laughing] And I think I hit that moment. But also, on top of that, the last church that I served at, which I call the church from hell, I, it was a very awful experience. My supervisor was one who didn't believe that women should be serving in ministry outside of children's ministry, that women shouldn't be ordained. It was like two years of horridness just working under that gentleman. I've shared other stories, but you know, the middle school- I was a high school leader- and the middle school pastor and I were talking and there had been, there had been some complications. I had gotten hired full time, which was amazing. It was going to be my first full-time position. And then they had issues in the upstairs, quote unquote, adult ministry area. And so because of politics, they ended up slashing everyone to half-time status if you were still in seminary. And I was like, “I'm a team player, that's fine. Like I have one semester left.” It was a three-unit course. And then I would be done in three months, right. So I was like, “It's fine.” But in between those three months, my supervisor got hired. And so, you know, I, the middle school pastor and I were talking and he was complaining because he had to work two jobs for his health to get healthcare, to start saving up money, cause he wanted to get married. And I said, “I'm really sorry.” And he was like, “Why are you sorry?” And I, I said, “Because I'm the reason you're not getting a full-time position.” And we had a hundred, each had 110 students. How can you not have a full-time youth leader taking care of 110 students, right? There were complaints that I wasn't doing visitations and all these things. And I'm like, “I just, there's no way. Cause I have to pay bills and you are paying me like $10 an hour for this half-time job,” or whatever. And so I told the middle school pastor, “You know, you just wait. The moment I walk out the door, when I quit, two weeks later you're going to get a full-time offer on the table.”And you know, I ended up getting fired because I was too progressive. I was too, you know, much of a rebel. I wasn't, according to their words, a team player, and all of these things, cause I was starting to really expand in my, deconstructing my theology of who Jesus is and what ministry actually is. And it really was because I took an exegetical of the gospels class. So I'm like not doing anything unbiblical here. Just asking a lot more questions of what we have deemed as, you know, right, or Jesus-like, which wasn't Jesus-like at all. So, you know, ended up being asked to leave, and lo and behold, two weeks after I was asked to leave the middle school pastor got his full-time offer on the table two weeks later. Jonathan Walton: Of course he did. Irene Cho: Of course he did. And so, and it's been only males being hired since then, you know. And so, I think that whole experience, by then, I, from some life stuff that I was asking really hard questions about trauma and pain and suffering and where is God in all of that. I was doing a lot of deconstruction work of what we had been told in the church where it was very much, Jesus will heal all things, cookie cutter, band-aid type of mantras and teachings. And really I was, I was questioning a lot of that. And then this, the whole experience with that part of the church really started, you know, leaving a bad taste in my mouth.And then on top of that, you know, again, this was the early 2000s and I felt like I was the only one in my church environment asking questions about LGBTQIA folks- you know, back then it was just four letters- and saying, what are we doing as a church? Why are we not doing more to love on these folks and to meet a need, you know, a dire need? And this is before any research that I knew had come out and nobody wanted to touch the, the gay question in any church capacity, right.My friend, Andrew Marin, who has written Love Is an Orientation, when I met him in 2007, he was saying how he had done research and he, in the city of Chicago, opened up the yellow pages and went line by line to every religious institution asking if their religious leader would meet with him to talk about the gay issue in any- he did Catholic, he did Protestant, he did Jewish tradition- I don't know if he did Muslim at that time. But he, he said nobody would meet with him except for one Jewish rabbi. He was the only one who responded amongst 2,000 leaders that he called in the city of Chicago.And that's, you know, for me, there was this complete dissatisfaction that we were missing the mark, that we were not doing this. And so there were a lot of questions I started asking and I started wondering, “Is me being a pastor or youth pastor going to be the way to start making changes in ways that needed to be made?” And I think that's, there were so many elements that really started having me, kind of move on from doing direct on the ground ministry. And then I got a position in a nonprofit that was training urban leaders. And that really started opening my eyes that there were so many other ways to really make an impact, right, and really help leaders ask these important questions rather than me just doing my little silo ministry, which is- I don't want to say little like belittling it- but you know, my one, individual, personalized youth ministry group versus how can I start training leaders who are going to make an impact in the lives of these young people?So then I, from there probably in 2005, 2004, started going into doing leadership training and working with leaders who are working with young people. And then it was really from there kind of continually moving on and moving on. And now I'm here where I want to start my own company, cause I still feel that most of the training institutions are still not at the place where I think a lot of folks are at where I think the church, and I say that as an institution, and leaders who are in the church are unwilling or scared to, for fear of loss of jobs or, you know, all the things in position are afraid to, or unwilling to ask the questions that I believe are, are really crucial, especially for the next generation. So, yeah. Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So you said a whole lot, and I want to ask you nineteen questions. [Irene laughs] But I'm going to ask you one with like ABC on it, right. So as you're talking about being a youth pastor, being a youth leader, and zeroing in on that particularly, just with the fast-pace that things happen and how quickly young people learn, what do you think young people in toxic church environments can do to start decolonizing their faith and how can youth pastors help? And I, I think I expand that a little bit to be, you know, campus ministers because these kids go home, right. And I wonder what that looks like in a practical way? Irene Cho: Yeah. Oh, it's such a loaded, great question. You know, for every student or kid in youth ministry, number one, I hope their youth leader is also asking these questions, right. And so A) I think that's such a rarity, cause I know I, from what I have seen of youth ministry world, not a lot of them are asking these questions. I know they have a lot on their plate, you know, and I know they're required to do a lot of things and are juggling a lot. So, you know, that's all great.And yet, I think there is a very clear dissatisfaction that kids have when they graduate. You know, the Fuller Youth Institute did a research study from their Sticky Faith, what they call their Sticky Faith research, that showed, you know, kids, a majority of kids really liked their youth pastor, but they left when they graduated or they left youth ministry to move on into adulthood.Most of the responses were, “I never felt like I was known.” “I didn't feel like I really learned.” “I don't, I didn't feel like church was a safe place,” you know. And there were a lot of those. But they really liked the youth pastor. And so the question I have for youth leaders in particular is, is your popularity, is that what you are trying to be- the cool youth leader, you know? Which, I think a lot of times we are told that that's the key to connecting with young people, right. And yet, all of the research directly from young people are saying otherwise. And we see stories where you see authentic older folks connecting because of the genuineness, the authenticity, the willingness to have conversations on difficult topics.And I, I still have so many relationships with my youth kids who, in particular, who were from that high school ministry, where we have lots of, where I have issues. The kids mend my relationship, I felt were so profound. Like if I had it my way, I would have stayed one more year and concluded and graduated and left with my freshman class who came in, right. And I'm sad that I wasn't able to do that, but I still have such good relationships with a good handful of them. And they, the thing that, you know, and I don't say this bragging about myself, cause I made a lot of mistakes, you know. And I share always one of the reasons I love training leaders is to share my mistakes and to not make the same mistakes I did. But I think one of the things that I am going to brag about that I did really well was to give them a safe space. I share this all the time when I do training. There was- after I got fired, and fired, again, for providing the safe space and not being a dictator and an authoritarian figure to my students and to lay down the law, that I actually respected my kids and said, “We're going to have conversations about this and this learning process. And you growing is not my journey. It's your journey. And I'm here to help you,” right. So there are two elements. Number one, how do you create a space? And, you know, I would have this thing where, back then in particular, you know, the big topic was smoking. Again, this was the early 2000s, right. And we had a couple of kids who did, you know, marijuana and stuff. I didn't have a lot of kids who were doing like hardcore drugs or anything like that in that youth ministry in particular. Not that it would be any different, I think, in my methodology. So let's take our kids who were smoking. You know, I would, every week, you know, I never ever told them that it was cool to smoke. And yet, somehow that bizarre narrative like kind of came up [Sy laughs] and it was all lies and like slander of me, right. But like every kid knew that I didn't approve and I was very honest. I'm like, “You're going to be impotent. It's going to stunt your growth.” I said it all. [Jonathan laughs] Like there was nothing I wouldn't say at the pulpit to my students, right, of like utilizing and saying, “You should live your life to the fullest in the fullest capacity that you can in enjoyment.” And I'm like, “You're, this is a temporary fix.” And like, you know, all these things. So I was never, I was never shying away from the fact that I disapproved. But on the other side of that, it is a struggle. It's an addiction. Like I fully get it. My mom and dad were smokers and my mom, I watched her struggle. It took her a really long time to quit smoking. And so every day, every week, you know, that I met with the kids, I would come in and all of the 10, 12 boys in particular, who were smoking, all were very vulnerable with me. And we all knew their journey. So they would come in and I would be like, “How are you doing? How many days has it been?” And they were like, “I f'd up,” you know. And they would cuss in front of me and they would say, “I f'd up, I had a huge fight with my mom yesterday. I was so angry. I can't stand her,” this and that. “And I had to have a smoke.” And I'm like, “That's okay. It's totally understandable. Did you have one today?” And they were like, “No, I didn't. I didn't have time. I got ready. And then I came to church.” I'm like, “So today's day one. Let's start again.” And like, I would high five them and like, I'm going on this journey with them, you know what I mean? So it's like, you know, we go to retreats and in my previous other ministries that I was, you know, serving in where I wasn't the one making, calling the shots, you know, we would expel students if they got caught smoking. So they would go sneak out into the woods and then like have a cigarette and we would do patrol. And then if they got caught, they would get sent home or whatever, right. And I was like, I'm not going to do it that way. So we would have the rule where obviously you're not allowed to smoke. This is a no-smoking camp or a conference center or campus or whatever. And for those of you who are struggling, you're going to come and talk to me or one of the counselors, and we will drive you off the property. And, you know, we will, we are going to be with you if you're really struggling, but we really, really challenge you to try to take this time to make it a detox weekend and like, you know, do all of that. And I had a volunteer come up to me because this was so unconventional. And they were, they were disapproving. And they, and I said, “Look, is it better for me to have them repress and hide and sneak out and then they cause a forest fire and all these things happen? Or is it better that they are able to journey with me and know that I am this safe space for them where I know they're not imperfect [sic]? They know that I'm not imperfect [sic], but we're doing this journey together to try to be more Jesus-like and to live the best life that we can live, you know, and we're, I'm cheerleading them on and encouraging them without any compromise of what the bottom line is. The bottom line is stop smoking. The bottom line is stop gossiping. The bottom line is stop bullying,” you know. All these things, right. And I had to talk with this volunteer through and they really processed it and started to see what relational ministry actually was doing, how effective it was like that kids were really desiring to come to church and it wasn't about the games and it wasn't about the pizza. It was about the fact that they were having a space where they're getting challenged, where they're being asked hard questions. They weren't getting let off the hook, you know, and yet they really loved it. You know what I mean? So after I get fired, I'm watching Oprah. It's a repeat, you know, episode. It's one in the morning. I'm in bed and there was this episode where a girl- she's beautiful. I think she was Mexican American. Her name is Jennifer and her story- I think you can find, I forget her last name- she was a sophomore in college and she went out with two of her girlfriends to a party, a college party. And as they're waiting at the stoplight, at the red light, a high schooler, junior in high school, was driving home drunk from a party and slammed into them. Cars caught on fire and her friends died and she was burned with third and fourth degree burns. And so he went to prison for involuntary manslaughter. And so, right, prime of his life. He's doing the SATs. He's about to go, like do college applications, just all of the hopefulness. And he is now in jail.So she comes on and she has no eyelids. Her fingers are all melted. Her father has to dress her every day. Her father has to put drops in her eyes every 30 minutes cause she doesn't blink. There's not a dry eye anywhere. And this girl is just so filled with life and hope and it's so powerful and so amazing. And, you know, the cause that she's now trying to, you know, educate people on, about not drunk driving, et cetera. And the mom of the son is on the show, because they obviously can't film him as a minor, and she comes out and she is there to apologize. Cause this is the first time they're meeting in person. And she can't get through it. And she is just sobbing, trying to apologize for what her son did.And Oprah asks her, “What do you want to tell every parent in the world as they see this? What do you wish to share that you have learned through all of this?” And she says- and I will never forget this- “I raised my son in a black-and-white world, a world of do's and don'ts, and I just wish I could have gone back and said to him, ‘I don't approve of you drinking. But if you find yourself in a situation that you have compromised in, give me a call. You won't get grounded. We'll figure it out together. I want you to be safe.'” And she was like, “Your kids are going to drink. Your kids are gonna make decisions that are not okay. And the question is, do they know that you are their backup plan, that you are the plan, that you are the safe space for them to call?” And I was screaming in my room, pointing at the camera, like, or at the TV, just, just screaming at the top of my lungs, “That's it! That's the gospel right there. That's Jesus fully in a nutshell,” right. And I wish all leaders in whatever, not even just in Christian tradition, in all traditions, like that is who we are trying to emulate. That's the empathy that Jesus calls us to, right. This is the molds that he breaks. It's not about the fact that he broke sabbatical or, you know, that Sabbath, and that he healed on that day. He's talking about the principle of empathy, right? He's, he and the religious leaders at that time, just, they cannot, they cannot get out of that mold of do's and don'ts of, of what, you know, Dallas Willard calls, the gospel of sin management and it's all of that that I just wish leaders would understand.It's not about you instilling, and here goes my second point… So, number one, how can you create safe spaces for young people? Not because you're compromising on what you believe is right or wrong, but that your journey, so that they can know they can ask these hard questions without somebody jumping down their throats, without somebody attacking them, without making them feel like you're a horrible Christian because they're doubting their faith or asking questions that aren't fitting in the little like, you know, square box that we're trying to squeeze evangelical God in. You know, all these things where trauma and suffering, if I have been raped, which is my story, by my senior pastor, like, where was God? Like these difficult questions that can't be wrapped up in a nice little, 15-, 20-minute sermon, right? How do you journey that students would actually know that you are the person that can pick up the phone at 2:00 AM when they find themselves at a party and they don't want to be there anymore? Are you the person that they're going to call or are they going to be like, my pastor can never know about this because I will get kicked out of youth group, right? Like, how are we doing that? Which leads to my second point of like, you're not here in actuality to help build Bible quiz champions, where they can regurgitate, you know, like all of their biblical knowledge. It's great. Of course, we need to know the Bible. Of course, we need to understand scripture because scripture is how we understand God's heart, right. We understand God's purpose and God's vision and God's desire for us as humans, for all of humanity. So I'm not saying ignore the Bible and chuck it out the door.I am a Bible nerd. I geek out to Bible stuff, right. So like, but are you creating people who are able to regurgitate information or you are helping mold people to be transformed in their lives? And that means providing more questions than answers. Again, referring back to my friend, Andy Marin, he said he ended up meeting in his research process, meeting a gentleman who his whole doctoral study was on open-ended questions. Which, my friend was like, how did he get funding for that? I don't even know.But as he met him, he was so fascinated by this concept of open-ended questions versus close-ended questions, right. Which is, “What is the weather today?” “The weather is 65 degrees.” That's a close-ended question. “Do you like bananas?” That's a close-ended question, right. And in this fascinating, in this research of the, again, the LGBTQI issue, you know, the question of, “If I'm gay, will I go to hell?” that's a closed-ended question, right. And so he went through all four gospels and line by line. He said, Jesus never answered a close-ended question that the religious leaders gave him with a closed-ended answer. He always responded back from their close-ended question with an open-ended question. He never answered the question because he knew it was a trap.He knew it was just to confirm their bias or their assumption of you, right. Which is usually the purpose of a close-ended question. And so he always responded back with an open-ended question. And the only time he actually answered was when he was at the end of his ministry, ready to face his death and Pontius Pilate asks him, “Are you the man who they say that you are?” And he says, “I am who they say that I am.” And he answers the question, right. And so we need to be helping these little humans learn how to ask more questions, how to ask better questions of themselves, of their families, of their lives, of their friends, of their communities, of the systems of government, of like all the things, right. And so, and, you know, I intuitively started doing that and I think because my mom raised me that way. And so with all the research that continually comes out, I just go home back to my mom, and I'm like, “Job well done, woman, for not having any like resources for how to, you know, raise a, you know, an insightful human being.” I just always high five her. She was like, “Okay.” Cause she was like doing that. And my students would be constantly frustrated with me because they would ask me a question and I would throw back a question at them. And this was, again, before I even knew that I was doing the right thing, right, or being Jesus-like. And so, and they would get so frustrated because they're like, “Just give me the answer,” you know, “Pastor Irene.” And I'm like, “No, that's not my job.” As you said, we're not with them all the time. So my job isn't to make sure they can checkmark all the little boxes, because they're going to go to college and then life, even more life stuff, shtuff is going to happen to them. And it's going to have them ask even bigger questions, which was one of the things that these kids in the Sticky Faith research was saying- they didn't feel that their church prepared them for life. Their church did not prepare them for these bigger questions. And that was a thing. Like Steve Jobs in his biography, right, was one of the things when he was 13 years-old, asked his priest, as he saw a Time cover magazine about Africa and poverty and AIDS. And he was like, “Where is God in all of this suffering?” And his priest told him, “You don't need to worry about that. That's not a question that, you know, you have to bother with.” And I'm like, “Why would you tell that to this 13 year-old, who has these huge, gigantic, metaphysical questions about life and suffering and God?” And, you know, of course we want to help them deepen their questions. Not necessarily answer, because how do we have an answer for where God is? Like, of course we don't have answers. That's the whole point of the book of Job, right? The point of the book of Job is his three friends tried to answer that question, “Where is God? Why am I suffering?” And they got punished because they were being know-it-alls and arrogant and conceited and prideful that they could define God and define this meta-question of suffering in the world, right. And what God wants us to do is sit with people and say, “I don't know the answers, and yes, it sucks, but I'm here with you. Let's figure this out.” Because we do know from life and from research, from wisdom, healing is going to come, right. That's the Sunday. Friday is here and Sunday's coming around the corner, right.The promise is that there will be healing, not the promise that we're going to know why this happened. I don't know why I was raped to this day. When I meet the Lord, I hope one day, I will, somehow, maybe, know the whole divine Providence for why this terrible thing was again, you know, allowed to happen or did happen or, you know, whatever the words we want to use semantically to describe it.But like, in my finite humanity right now, all I know is that I have grown from it. I have grown wiser from it. I have grown stronger from it. I'm more empathetic because of it. I have more information about trauma and healing because of it. All the things that the Bible promises us actually happens. Not this lie that evangelicalism has told us where Jesus is going to make it all better. No, it absolutely did not make it better. Like I still get triggered. When the Me Too movement started happening, like it was all of my wounds and scars that were fully healed and there are scar, like wound markings, but not bleeding, happening there. You could feel the tingling, you know what I mean? Like all the triggers are just under the surface. And so do we like wish that we wouldn't have to live in a painful world? Of course we want to live in utopia, but this is the world that we live in and we hurt one another. And there are systems and structures in place that are hurtful and harmful and toxic and all of these things. So your job as a leader is not to help them checkmark boxes. Your job as a leader is to prepare them to know BS and horrible things are coming down the pipeline because that's life and nobody is, you know, immune to pain. Nobody is immune to suffering. And the question is, are we helping them know how to have the tools to be prepared for that, right? And so I would say those are the two-fold number one for leaders. And then for young people, you know, as I counsel, continually counsel, young people who are so traumatized and so hurt by what they've experienced at the church, in the church, by church leaders, I just would sit with them and say, “I know, and I'm with you. And it sucks. And people suck. And I'm really sorry. And how can, how can we talk about it, and share about it, and how can we learn, and how can I be there for you? In what ways, you know, can I be a shoulder for you to cry on, a body that you can lean on, a spirit that can give you hope in the midst of a time period when you might not see any hope at all whatsoever?” But not in a toxic positive kind of way, but a very realistic, you know, “I've been through, I've been through a lot. And so let me be a beacon to know you're going to be okay. Like I'm with you. Like you're not alone in this journey,” right. And I think that's the best we can do because at the end of the day, each person in community needs to find their path of healing, needs to find their journey for what that looks like.And everybody is different. Some people are going to hunker down and really kind of like action their way through. Other people are going to have to really sit in their emotions and dissect and understand it and do all of that, you know. And other people are going to have to confront and, you know, do other ways by which, you know, they're going to find healing through justice means, right. So everybody's different. And we have to allow everybody to go at their pace and to have their process, I think. And so I think just empathetically being with people is the most important. Jonathan Walton: Thank you for sharing all of that. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, oh my God. Jonathan Walton: Because, particularly because I think, one, like exegesis is important too. Like I think you, you did not answer the question in such a way that gives us more information, but you answered the question in a way that invites us to the feet of Jesus, which is reflected in you because you're made in his image. And so I appreciate that. And I'm grateful for you allowing us to know you and hopefully, if we do the work, to know God and ourselves better as well.Irene Cho: Yeah. You know, I share this a lot. I think my mom, one of the things that I, I really embody from her teaching, she used to say to me- because sometimes when I was like 12 or 13 and she would share about her divorce and like processing and stuff [laughs] I feel like, I don't know if I'm the right age, you know, to necessarily be listening to all of this. But a lot of it, I mean, she never did it in a way that was like unloading on me, but more of like teaching me. And she would say to me all the time, “If you could learn at 30 what I had to learn at 40, and I could save you ten years so that you are wiser and you could do so much more with your life because you have those ten years back, then my job as a mom is done,” right. And I feel that a lot when I do leadership training. Like I'm not here to make myself puffed up or look good. If I can take the pains and mistakes that I have experienced in life and relay that wisdom, what I've learned and grown from, in an empathetic way to folks so that you, as a leader, could make one mistake the way I made a mistake and learn from it rather than what I did, which was ten mistakes, you know?And like, if you could learn from this one mistake and not get fired, and leave on your own terms, right, and do it in this way then my job is done as a trainer. My job is done as, you know, somebody to provide that to you so that you could do what I couldn't do. Which is the whole point of Jesus saying, “You're going to do greater things than I am,” right. Like isn't that what we want to continually spread is that the next generation takes off with more knowledge, more information, more empathy, more wisdom, and more insight, and more questions than we had, you know, as leaders at their age, right? And so even if that means that they're going to take off and write the book and get the book contract, and I didn't get it, then it's okay. Like my ego and my pride and my fame and my position, it doesn't matter. God didn't give me all of this so that I could have a platform. It was so that I could serve in any capacity, way, shape, or form so that there are others who can continually expand the kingdom in a way by which the love of Jesus and the beauty of who Jesus is, is spread, you know, and not in a proselytizing, corny kind of way.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: So first of all, I have, I just want to say I have like a very direct, specific example of what you were talking about before of getting kids to talk, to ask bigger questions. Irene Cho: Yeah. Sy Hoekstra: A big question that I had before I was deciding whether or not I wanted to, like commit myself to Jesus was I, I just did not like the idea of hell and I didn't like the idea that God had created, you know, a universe in which, the, you know, billions of people or whatever would, would suffer forever and he knew that that was going to happen when he created it. And we believe that he's perfect. So he didn't need us. And like all the, you know, it just didn't, it seemed kind of needless and cruel. And it was, it was somebody in my youth ministry, a volunteer actually, a 19 year-old volunteer who I'm still friends with, who kind of pointed me to like, whatever problems you have with that, that's actually a less important or compelling question than the question of why did God make everything, knowing that he would have to suffer through all that, right? Like knowing that he was going to the cross, knowing that he was going to experience like everything that we experience as people. And so then, like from there, you can say, well, whatever he's doing with creation, you can trust him, right? Like it's a point of trust. It's a point of authenticity and I, I dunno, I just, you took me back there very pointedly to a specific time where someone getting me to ask a different question, getting me to ask a different question led directly to me, like deciding to follow Jesus.Irene Cho: Yeah. And it's those things like, and I would do that. I would share my understanding and my belief, but I would also always ask bigger questions. Like I believe in that, but there are still going to be questions by which, you know, is this a necessity? There are people who strongly believe in God and don't believe in hell at all. Like, and that's okay. I always would tell students, go in the rabbit hole, do the journey, but have like, have a tie, have an anchor because you know, I've done the rabbit hole trail. And so I would, I would share with them like, bounce these questions off with somebody who's safe, bounce these questions off, as you're asking, like, you know, ask all the questions that you need because there are going to be answers and there aren't going to be answers and it might lead you to more questions.And that's okay. Like God can handle, God can handle all the questions that you have. And you may not end up finding answers and all of these things, but, you know, try to make sure you don't forget where home base is, you know, in whatever that looks like for you. And not to say, like abandoning your faith is bad. It's to say, you know, I always share with students, like leaving faith out of anger or, or spite isn't necessarily a healing process, right. And I don't say this to them, but like Bill Maher is an example. Obviously the man has been very traumatized by his Catholic upbringing and he has not done therapy, right.Jonathan Walton: Slightly, slightly.Irene Cho: And he's, and it, it's very telling of that. And it's not to say his anger is not legitimate. I fully legitimize it and acknowledge it and respect and support it, right. It's just, as you are angry because of pain that you've experienced, understand and know that that's not the be all end all.And that's the other thing with adolescents that I love doing is trying to increase their world, because their world is their family, their high school life, their friends, like their little community, you know. And especially with urban kids too, because of capacity and resource, lack of resources, like they don't leave their little, their little space, right. They don't get on the bus and cross over the freeway or like go to… Like some urban kids, like when they get on a plane at the age of 17, it's the first time they've ever gotten on a plane or on a train or like going to another state. So you have these other ministries or organizations, nonprofits that like take them out camping, take them out to the wilderness, right. Because it's, it's continually expanding their world. And so they're very savvy, street savvy a lot of times, but they, their world is still small, right. And same with adolescents who are in, you know, middle-class world. That's their, that's their capacity. And so how do we help continually have their world and universe expanded? Like they think their mom, like even asking questions about their parents' relationship. Like their mom is on them all the time and we have these like anger issues and I'm like, my job here is to help them ask questions like, well, why is your mom on you like that? What's happening? Are they having money problems? Are they having marital problems? Are they like really worried about something? Are they disappointed in you? Like asking them these questions, because when you're 16 years-old and you're really angry and you don't necessarily have the vocabulary or the cognitive understanding, psychological cognitive understanding, then they're like, “I don't know if my parents are having marital problems,” or maybe they do, but they don't know how to put that into words, right.And I remember, I love when I have students at, you know, I had one youth pastor, he said, “I love going to kids, visiting kids' homes for dinner, and then asking their parents how they met and why they got married because the kids are like, ‘Oh my God, my parents are like human! They have like love relationships.'” And they never, they never know any of those things, right. There was another group. We had a cohort in the previous org that I worked at, where we had a hundred leaders in the room and we asked them how many of them knew their own parents' faith journey, faith story, right? Or come to faith journey. 0% of them raised their hands. These are youth leaders! And it's like, okay, how are we not sharing or asking kids to ask their parents about their faith journey, right?And it's just like expanding their worlds in all of those little ways and big ways that I think we need to do as leaders and people who interact with young people. Like I just continually hear from people, “Nobody has ever asked me those questions,” right. And that tickles my heart because now I have incepted in your mind these questions, and I hope you go home from this conversation you and I have had where you are curious and hungry to know, and like wondering, right. Let's have kids grow up as curious people wanting to know more. And that means allowing them to ask these really difficult questions, even though we may not have all the answers. And I think kids really appreciate it when I say to them, “That's an excellent question. I fully don't have an answer for that. I still don't know why there's suffering in the world. And that's one of the first questions I'm going to ask God when I meet God.” And that's so reassuring for them, you know what I mean? They're like, “Oh, my youth pastor is,” you would think like, I know a lot of leaders are worried and they're like, “Oh, I have to have all the answers.” No, you so totally do not. And what it does is… and you can even invite them and be like, “Hey, let's read this book together.” And like, “Let's ask these questions together because I also don't know.” And what a great opportunity that is. Sy Hoekstra: So switching gears a little bit, I think, um, you talk a lot about leaders being people who have to constantly deal with or steward the trauma of their communities. Yeah, so I used to be a public defender in the child welfare system, like working with parents who were, who were caught up in the system. And the, just canyon of difference between what I was doing every day with mostly non-Christian colleagues and, you know, like helping people, like do whatever you can to help people try and like shoulder the burden of a system like that and just like anything that was going on at church was so wide and so noticeable. And, you know, not just like my own church, I mean, like anything that's happening in The Church, you know, it just felt like, so, I dunno, like why, why aren't we here? Why aren't we doing this? And could you just give us a couple of ideas or examples of what practically it looks like for people to help, for leaders, Christian leaders, to help the communities, you know, steward trauma well? And maybe in particular touch on, you know, when we have all the videos of police brutality going around all the time and we have the Me Too movement that you've already brought up, there's just kind of so much of it in the air. So what does that look like for leaders to help in that way? Irene Cho: Yeah. We could do a whole other episode on this. Jonathan Walton: We could.Irene Cho: You know, I think first of all, number one, I want to validate it is exhausting because like helping and walking with people, you're, you have your own stuff that you deal with, right. And then to walk alongside a community that may never really see an end to the struggles is, is so exhausting. And so we talk about this a lot. Self-care is one of the most crucial practices for you as a leader when you are engaging with communities of trauma, or communities with trauma. So we talk about this a lot in urban contexts, by which, you know, we feel this burden and this passion and this obligation to be the savior of that community and of those people. And not in a vindictive kind of way, right? It's very, the intention and the desire I think is, is very warranted, is very, is very good, but two folds can happen. You can burn yourself out from the savior complex, or you can become an egomaniac, right, and a complete narcissist. Because I, one of the things, I have this topic that I want to train on, which is “The Four Narcissists” that, or maybe write a book on it, you know, talking about the four narcissists that we have to deal within in nonprofit world is, you know, Sy Hoekstra: Oh my gosh! [laughs]Irene Cho: the philanthropical narcissist, which is, you know, a lot of folks go into nonprofit world or, you know, engaging in urban contexts, et cetera, with this very savior thing. And they want to become the savior of that community. And it's a very true thing that we have to deal with. But it's, it's all gift wrapped in philanthropy. It's all gift wrapped in giving. It's all gift wrapped in serving. So you don't really understand that the underlying intention is narcissism in there, right. Sy Hoekstra: And even if you do, you have to deal with those people because they're giving you the money.Irene Cho: Exactly. And not even the money, but even the leaders, right. So, and we see this right now with superstar pastors falling and all of that. And so, so you know, either that, or you completely burn out and you have no capacity left whatsoever. So number one, you know, take care of yourself, finding rhythms that are good. I know the work is so plentiful. The work is so overwhelming. The work and the need is just like suffocating. You, you have to find those spaces by which you can unplug, even in the city, unplug in the chaos, and go away for just a time period. It's there, that time is there. Jesus was bombarded by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people on a daily basis. And yet found time and capacity to go recover and recuperate and like rejuvenate himself, right. So let's model that. Let's model after who we are trying to model after and really do self-care. Number two, we have to become knowledgeable. I think, you know, this idea in the church that therapy and psychology and anthropology and sociology are against God, that all of those scientific understandings are not faithful, the stigma of that continually needs to be dismantled. And like, there's so much information that is needed to be conveyed for how to address the way we communicate, the way we resolve conflict, the way we take action, you know, civil action against the systems and structures. And we need, we need people to tie those things together because we have the activists, we have the people, the leaders who are doing nonprofit work, you know, leading on the ground. We have the people, you know, who are fertilizing, who are supposed to keep the peace of the community. And we do not have the tools really to helpfully, holistically, intersect and intertwine and engage all of the different schools of thought and practices that would help alleviate that, right. And so, and I know that's really complex. There's so many levels. I mean, I just said a huge mouthful and there's like a monolith of stuff by which we can address when talking about like all of these things. But as one leader who's engaging, you know, equip yourself with better tools for understanding how to psychologically like help people and yourself get better, right. And we could do it in lay terminologies. There's books out there, there's video out there. There are, there are people who are willing to train, you know, others. I had a friend, they do government grants where they help with that. And so they had a whole program where they went into various lower income communities and helped with marital counseling. And in like the, you know, stories that came out of these families who would not have access to therapy and marital counseling who went through these classes and training, and they're like, “Not only is this helping our marriage, but it is helping us learn how to be better parents now,” because they are having tools to learn how to ask better questions, tools to learn how to do conflict management and deescalate themselves and deescalate with their kids, right. And these are all these things by which these communities, we need to provide these tools. And so you, as a leader, again, you're not there to save them. That's their journey. You're there to provide those tools, to provide that information, to provide that education so that those families are going to leave that two-hour session with you and start to implement that in their homes.Like you're not going to be with them all the time, right. And so how can we continually do that as leaders and bring in experts, bring in people, learn how to, and this is the third thing, learn how to collaborate together. Again, removing the savior complex. You cannot be all things to all people. Even Superman has his kryptonite, right?Like and, like we see it. The Justice

Brian responds with research and personal experience to the things that Evangelicals commonly tell LGBTQ to do, and believe about themselves. Resources: - Us vs Us by Andrew MArin - Justin Lee at www.Geekyjustin.com - Generous Space Ministries www.generousspaceministries.ca - Family Acceptance Project https://familyproject.sfsu.edu/ Brian can be reached at bpengelly@nbuc.ca --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/josiah-meyer/message

Greg and Lisa podcast from Tales of the Cocktail 2015! Interviews include Ted Breaux, Derrick Schommer, and Andrew Marin, plus we do a little bit of the “usual” New Orleans stuff! Download Episode 2. If you enjoyed the show, please tell us so by writing an iTunes review. Thank you!

Ryan White and David McElveen's the Real Estate Radio Hour with guests Alex Bellini, Andrew Marin and Nash Subotic. Aired February 06,2014 via ESPN 1700 AM

Ryan White and David McElveen's the Real Estate Radio Hour with guests Andrew Marin and Brian Bohan. Aired January 02,2014 via ESPN 1700 AM

Michael Kimpan is the executive director of the Marin Foundation - a foundation which has as it’s goal to "build bridges between the LGBTQ Community and communities of faith”. After a delicious lunch at Joey’s House of Pizza, David & Michael...

Andrew Marin grew up in a conservative church, and much to his surprise developed a calling and passion to build bridges between the Church and the LGBTQ community. So he moved into a gay part of town, and spent all his time getting to know people in gay bars. Ss you can imagine, there's plenty for us to learn from the remarkable journey he's been on.  If you want more from Nomad, check out our website, and follow us on Facebook and twitter If you're looking for other people to share this journey with, then register on our Listener Map, and see if any other nomads are in your area.  Nomad can only keep going because a small group of faithful listeners help us pay the bills. If you want to join them, you can make regular donations at Patreon or a one-off or regular donation through PayPal, the links to which you can find on our support page. As a thank you, you'll have access to Nomad Book Club, our online community The Beloved Listener Lounge, and Nomad Devotionals, where we're attempting to reconstruct worship through a creative mix of songs, music, readings, prayers and guest reflections.

Author Andrew Marin :: Plus, folk singer Joe Pug, the week’s news and entertainment, your top picks of the decade and much more …

Author Andrew Marin :: Plus, folk singer Joe Pug, the week's news and entertainment, your top picks of the decade and much more …