Communion & Shalom

Grace Thomas came out as a transgender woman at age 61—after decades of life as a pastor, husband, and father. That alone makes her story remarkable. But what's even more compelling is the way she tells it: with gentleness, honesty, and deep care for the people in her life.In this episode, Grace shares how her transition has shaped her relationships with her children and her wife, what it's been like to remain in conversation with those who don't fully understand or affirm her, and how her reading of Scripture has changed her approach to parenting, church, and more.We're particularly grateful for the gracious and curious way that Grace approaches all her conversations, and we hope you'll join us to learn from her, no matter where you land on these topics.About Our GuestGrace is a committed follower of Jesus with a call to ministry. She is also a trans woman out publicly for 3 ½ years. During her 32 years as a pastor in a conservative denomination, her two youngest children came out as gay. Deeply committed to loving her sons and following Jesus, she began a long journey of rethinking faith and what it means to fully love others, especially her children and herself. Grace supports parents of LGBTQ kids through various support groups as well as pursuing community and inclusion for LGBTQ individuals in the church. You can contact her at graceisforyoualways@gmail.comNote: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #64 - Grace Thomas: From Pentecostal Pastor to Trans Woman(03:39) I only knew to say: "Being gay is sin."(10:40) Coming out to myself as transgender: "I don't know" is cruel(25:15) The wrong wedding clothes: How does it hang on the law of love?(33:29) "Parents know if they're giving a child a fish or a rock"(47:02) Holiness: I don't see God as "untouchable"(58:26) A trans experience: Psalm 139(01:10:58) A trans experience: The car parts store(01:15:25) A trans experience: Passing as female(01:18:38) No one can stop me from loving my neighbor—★ Links and ReferencesCheck out a few other episodes we mentioned in this conversation:* #32 - TJ Participated in an “Oriented to Love” Dialogue--Here Are His Thoughts* #33 - Asking Better Questions with Oriented to Love's Kristyn Komarnicki* #11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

In this bonus episode, we chat with Mike Vick about the American Solidarity Party. We explore the party's foundations, which are influenced by Christian democratic values and Catholic Social Teaching. Their thorough set of ethical platforms grounded in human dignity, the common good, and solidarity (in a way that neither Democratic nor Republican parties are offering!!) would really be a breath of fresh air in American politics!Mike Vick is the founder of the Liberation Caucus in the American Solidarity Party. The episode delves into Mike's personal and political journey, his stance on social and economic issues, and the challenges within the party, particularly concerning LGBT topics. Come join us as we think about the role of civic pluralism in US politics.—★ Timestamps(00:00) Welcome Mike Vick from the American Solidarity Party(01:50) LGBTQ Topics and Side B Perspective(04:10) Mike Vick's Background and Political Journey(15:51) Solidarity Party's Principles and Inclusivity(19:15) Distributism and Economic Democracy(26:33) Pro-Life Stance and Social Issues(28:32) Platforms and Opinions on LGBTQ+ Issues(32:29) Three Camps within the Party(36:07) Party Challenges and Tensions(42:43) Liberation Caucus and Party Dynamics(49:23) Political Theology and Civic Pluralism(52:14) How to Get Active—★ Links and References in This Episode* ASP Liberation Caucus: www.liberationasp.org* Mike's Linktree: linktr.ee/votevickusa* American Solidarity Party * www.solidarity-party.org/platform* linktr.ee/liberationasp* The Servile State by Hilaire Belloc (1912)* Toward a Truly Free Market: A Distributist Perspective on the Role of Government,Taxes, Health Care, Deficits, and More by John Medaille (2011)—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

What if friendship—not romance, not marriage—were the central relationship in your life?That's the question Rhaina Cohen asks in her book The Other Significant Others. And wow, do we love this book. David, TJ, and Elena sat down with Rhaina to talk about what it would mean to build a life around deep, committed friendship—and why our current relationship hierarchy (romantic > everything else) might be due for a rethink.Once you start centering friendship, it starts disrupting many other assumptions. We talked about: what it looks like to live near your friends, how parenting could look different, what happens when friends make commitments, when other people don't recognize those commitments, and whether secular folks should borrow a few ideas from monks.Join us and—if you haven't already—go read the book!About Our GuestRhaina Cohen is an award-winning editor for the NPR documentary podcast Embedded and the author of the national bestseller, The Other Significant Others: Reimagining Life with Friendship at the Center, which Trevor Noah described as "my new Bible." Her writing on social connection has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Washington Post and has been supported by the National Endowment for the Humanities. Rhaina's recent TED talk on the untapped potential of friendship has been viewed more than half a million times. She lives in Washington, D.C. with her husband and close friends.—★ Timestamps(00:00) Why we were excited to interview Rhaina Cohen(04:17) Rhaina Cohen: "Reimagining life with friendship at the center"(10:27) Deconstruction and reconstruction: You can't be what you can't see(19:10) Live Near Friends(24:52) Conflicts in friendships: needing language, recognition(28:29) Parenting doesn't have to be exhausting(37:00) Can we TEACH better relationship skills?(41:33) Covenant relationships: "You can be committed to someone and not be sleeping with them"(47:04) Would secular people benefit from monastic models?(55:03) What's next? Monogamy, marriage vows, and more(01:01:52) Recommended readings from Rhaina and more—★ Links and References“A Grand Experiment in Parenthood and Friendship” by Rhaina Cohen (The Atlantic, 2025)Live Near Friends: livenearfriends.comSuper Nuclear: supernuclear.substack.comPlatonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make—and Keep—Friends by Marissa Franco (2022)Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections by Anna Goldfarb (2024):Stay True, a memoir by Hua Hsu (2023)First Love: Essays on Friendship by Lily Dancyger (2024)Invisibilia (NPR) series on friendship, especially: Nun of Us Are Friends, Esther Perel gives Therapy with FriendsFollow Rhaina: Related on Substack, @RhainaCohen on InstagramTJ's Story (New Kinship episode #6): “TJ's Story | Dysphoria, Queerness, Contextualization, and Conviction”—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

I mean, I don't know you. Maybe you didn't grow up in an evangelical Christian subculture. But if you did, there's a high likelihood that the ideas you absorbed about how men and women behave—and what it even means to be masculine or feminine—were influenced heavily by C.S Lewis' famous Space Trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength.On this fascinating episode, Kathryn Wagner (returning guest and medieval lit scholar) and Robin Harris (writer and incoming seminarian) stopped by to evaluate Lewis' takes on gender against both more modern feminist sensibilities and much older writers and theologians in the Christian tradition.You should absolutely join us.★ About Our Guests:Robin Harris is a North Carolina based freelance writer and editor who specializes in Bible curriculum. She is on the board of the Davenant Institute. Her writing has appeared in Mere Orthodoxy, Ad Fontes, and the Theopolis Institute. As of Fall 2025, she will be a student at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary (MATS, 2027). She writes at robinjeanharris.substack.com/ and can be reached at robinjeanharris [at] gmail.com.Kathryn Wagner is the Director of Academic Programming at the Center for Christianity and Scholarship at Duke University. She studies the literature and religious culture of the late Middle Ages and teaches courses that aim to form students in virtue through the practices of the liberal arts. She can be reached at kathryn [at] mogkwagner.net.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #62 - Evangelicals' Gender Ideas Came from C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy - with Robin Harris and Kathryn Wagner(04:20) Evangelicals who leaned on C.S. Lewis and the Space Trilogy(13:12) The Space Trilogy tackles gender(24:46) But can archetypes live in the real world?(38:44) God does not have a body: Metaphors in Christian scripture(53:28) Confusion and contraception are tied together(01:00:58) God as our mother?(01:06:39) Lewis's thinking evolution: widening the gender box(01:24:44) Replacing theoretical masculinity and femininity with real friendships(01:33:24) What would Lewis think of today's transgender conversation?(01:40:31) In the Christian tradition on gender, Lewis is the test run—★ Links and ReferencesThese well-read people dropped a lot of names and references. For your ease of Google searching, here are the ones we caught:John and Stasi Eldridge (books: Wild at Heart, Captivating), Jordan Peterson Jungian thinking, Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Elisabeth Elliot (book: Let Me Be a Woman), complementarianism and egalitarianism, Michael Ward (book: Planet Narnia), apophatic theology, platonic forms and Aristotle's hylomorphism, Thomistic/ Thomas=Thomas Aquinas, Pope John Paul II (book/writings: Theology of the Body), Anselm of Canterbury talked about God as our mother, Julian of Norwich said a similar thing; Joy Davidman, Dorothy Sayers, philosopher Elizabeth Anscombe, Sister Penelope Lawson, Ruth Pitter, C. S. Lewis (books: The Four Loves, A Grief Observed), Kevin Vanhoozer (theologian).—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship —★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

What if celibate people are really just repressing their sexuality? Or the Bible writers banned same-sex sex because they couldn't imagine a modern, egalitarian, consensual marriage?Join TJ (social science researcher) and David (communitarian vibes) as they name 7 “myths” of sex, celibacy, marriage, and love, and talk about LGBTQ flourishing for Christians.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #61 - 7 Myths of Side A: On Sex, Love, and Marriage for LGBTQ Christians(03:19) Myth #1: Celibacy equals sexual repression or misery(10:29) Myth #2: The Bible writers only banned gay sex because they couldn't imagine consensual, egalitarian same-sex monogamous relationships(15:32) Myth #3: Marriage is the only committed covenant relationship(23:17) Myth #4: Colonialist European Christianity is the source of homophobia around the globe(31:06) Myth #5: A sexual ethic is just a personal decision(36:33) Myth #6: Love trumps everything(42:20) Myth #7: Sexual ethics are minor differences among Christians(53:25) Summing up—★ Links and References* Bill White in the New York Times: “How My Dad Reconciled His God and His Gay Son.” https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/05/opinion/coming-out-evangelical-pastor.html?unlocked_article_code=1.u04.SZiC.MDfFGLX6HWTO&smid=url-share* Wendell Berry, **“Sex, Economy, Freedom, and Community,” (2018). https://www.counterpointpress.com/books/sex-economy-freedom-community/* John Pike, “Were loving, faithful same-sex relations known in antiquity?” https://www.psephizo.com/sexuality-2/were-loving-faithful-same-sex-relations-known-in-antiquity/* Preston Sprinkle, “Did Consensual Same-Sex Sexual Relationships Exist in Biblical Times? A Response to Matthew Vines,” (August 30, 2022). https://www.centerforfaith.com/blog/did-consensual-same-sex-sexual-relationships-exist-in-biblical-times-a-response-to-matthew—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

This episode contains a brief mention of violent murder.Teresa is a queer woman who grew up in the Philippines and has worked in the U.S. in campus ministry for several years. She brings thoughtful reflections on identities, faith relationships, and family interactions across multiple cultures. We're honored to be her friend!Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #60 - Teresa - On Filipina, Side B(03:31) Understanding faith and sexuality as a 12-year-old Filipina(11:53) Filipino and US shared queer terminology(14:46) Catholics and Protestants: a wide schism(19:41) My parents love me dearly, but identity is hard(27:08) What's influencing me lately: mystics, monastics, and eunuchs(31:19) Side B: Reveling in God's love for me(39:38) Finding a queer staff community in campus ministry(45:38) Gifts of being queer: art, care, hospitality—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

Church unity is hard, folks.The United Methodist Church (UMC) had a momentous global meeting last year (2024), with the major outcome of allowing—or at least not preventing or taking action against—performing same-sex marriages and ordaining non-celibate gay leaders in the church. Methodists around the world have WIDE disagreements on how they even interpret this outcome, much less what they should do about it.This conflict is as much about church unity and governance as it is about LGBTQ rights and people—but of course they're wrapped up together. You might recognize yourself and your own Christian denomination in the UMC's 40+ years of conversations on these topics. Church unity is hard, folks.Last year, we talked to two members of the UMC to hear their perspectives: a U.S.-based seminary student pursuing ordination with the UMC, and a bishop in UMC leadership in Liberia.This episode is Part 2 of 2. Part 1 can be found here: https://newkinship.substack.com/p/58-the-united-methodist-church-liftsWe had some technical difficulties with the video on this episode, so thanks for bearing with us. It's so important to take the time to listen to each other as we examine our own convictions. Please join us in listening with care for our Christian siblings around the world.About Our Guest:The Reverend Dr. Jerry P. Kulah is an elder in the Liberia Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church (UMC). For more 28 years, Dr. Kulah has served the UMC in Liberia as an evangelist, educator, pastor, and administrator. Dr. Kulah holds a Doctor of Ministry degree in Leadership from Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky, USA (class of 2010); he is currently a PhD candidate in Theology at the Anglia Ruskin University, Cambridge Theological Federation, UK. Dr. Kulah's vision is to see Africa transformed by Christ-centered Africans of quality, competence, and character.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #59 - The United Methodist Church Lifted Its Ban on Gay Marriage: On Fragmentation and Autonomy with Reverend Jerry Kulah (Part 2 of 2 on the UMC)(01:35) Rev. Kulah: Liberian, Ordained UMC Minister(06:46) "A silent invasion of the church in Africa"(11:52) Uniting, leaving, waiting: African churches in confusion(24:29) Regionalization fragments the church under a "big tent"(33:07) What will happen in the African UMC? (predictions from summer 2024)(45:12) Liberia's laws on marriage and sexuality(47:39) Same-sex temptation is not the same as "being homosexual"(54:37) We are brothers and sisters: "Don't compel me to live in your context"—★ Links and ReferencesA recent letter from the African Bishops: www.unitedmethodistbishops.org/newsdetail/africa-umc-bishops-statement-2024-18627021Comments from the Africa Initiative: peopleneedjesus.net/2024/05/24/africa-initiative-united-methodism-in-africa-is-not-for-sale-to-western-cultural-christianity/—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

The United Methodist Church (UMC) had a momentous global meeting last year (2024), with the major outcome of allowing—or at least not preventing or taking action against—performing same-sex marriages and ordaining non-celibate gay leaders in the church. Methodists around the world have WIDE disagreements on how they even interpret this outcome, much less what they should do about it.This conflict is as much about church unity and governance as it is about LGBTQ rights and people—but of course they're wrapped up together. You might recognize yourself and your own Christian denomination in the UMC's 40+ years of conversations on these topics. Church unity is hard, folks.Last year, we talked to two members of the UMC to hear their perspectives: a U.S.-based seminary student pursuing ordination with the UMC, and a bishop in UMC leadership in Liberia.This is Part 1 of 2. Part 2 can be found here: [link available Feb 19, 2025]It's so important to take the time to listen to each other as we examine our own convictions. Please join us in listening with care for our Christian siblings around the world.About Our Guest:Joe Meinholz is currently a seminarian at Duke Divinity School pursuing ordination in the United Methodist Church. He grew up farming in Ho Chunk land (Southern Wisconsin) and is an aspiring community organizer, pastor, water protector, and lover of Jesus.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps00:00 #58 - The United Methodist Church Lifts Ban on Gay Marriage: Polity and Progress with Joe Meinholz (Part 1 of 2 on the UMC)01:32 Polity: How the United Methodist Church denomination governs itself08:38 1972-today: UMC's history of LGBT marriage and theology12:51 2019-today: Making paths for "disaffiliation"20:32 Rulings from the 2024 UMC general conference: A more neutral position?27:17 The Global Methodist Church": A new denomination of disaffiliated churches29:00 Moving toward regional meetings of equals36:19 The fruit of our united front: Must we align on social principles?40:51 If you were Methodist, would YOU have disaffiliated?51:19 What does "church unity" mean? Can we disagree on sexuality?57:17 Wrapping up, looking forward—★ Links and ReferencesThe Other Significant Others by Rhaina CohenA recent letter from the African Bishops: www.unitedmethodistbishops.org/newsdetail/africa-umc-bishops-statement-2024-18627021Comments from the Africa Initiative: peopleneedjesus.net/2024/05/24/africa-initiative-united-methodism-in-africa-is-not-for-sale-to-western-cultural-christianity/One author on “ubuntu”: https://um-insight.net/general-conference/a-way-forward/ubuntu/—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

Tyler Parker weighs in on topics like bisexuality, Christianity at Harvard, liberation theology, and celibate partnerships. A valuable conversation… but that goes without saying. Join us!About Our Guest:Tyler Parker is a campus minister at Harvard College, where he studied government and filmmaking during his undergraduate studies. He is a follower of Jesus, is bisexual, and is filled with a deep passion for LGBTQ+ people to experience the lives of flourishing that are borne out of radical encounters with the love of Christ. He also helps lead a growing Revoice chapter in the Greater Boston area and serves on staff at Aletheia Church, Cambridge. He can be reached on Instagram: @tyler.parker.1671—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #57 - Theology of Sex and Ministry at Harvard, with Tyler Parker(01:36) Doing Christian campus ministry at Harvard(10:20) Coming out (to myself and others) as bisexual(18:37) But what is "bisexuality"?(20:41) Why not side A? How did the early church read these passages?(33:15) Church silence around sexuality(38:55) Family conversations and celibacy(44:36) Ok, but: Celibate partnerships?(01:09:46) Can you "fall in love" without it turning to sexual attraction?(01:18:50) Having calm conversations about sexuality at Harvard(01:27:53) Future of the Side B movement?—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

Note: This episode includes a brief mention of suicide and community response to it.As the child of a Korean pastor and raised in North America, Stephen Shim has been wrestling with coming to terms with being, in his words, “a minority of a minority of a minority”—a gay, Korean Christian. Stephen is a leader in the “B-sian” group—a community of Asian, Side B Christians that developed from the Revoice annual conference.Now in his late 30s, Stephen has continued to walk down the path of his life with a bit more peace and a bit less wrestling, while trying to love God and love others as best as he can. You can contact him on X/Twitter or Bluesky: skshim.bsky.social.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #56 - Stephen Shim's B-sian Story: Being Gay, Korean-Canadian, and a Side B Christian(02:11) Growing up: Dad was a pastor, Mom was often sick(20:47) "Are you gay? Or are you Asian?"(42:28) Talking to my father about sexuality(53:28) Why side B? Reading scripture literally, familial obligations(56:51) Finding Side B through Revoice: "I do not like new things"(01:04:54) The B-sian Origin Story(01:20:59) "Why does this guy keep talking about race?"(01:26:25) How are multicultural spaces supportive, or not?(01:32:45) How can people connect with you?—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

If you've never heard of Life on Side B—the podcast that in many ways inspired this one—today is your day! We interviewed Josh and Ashley on their ending season, where Side B could evolve, and how LoSB podcast was almost named “Unicorns for Jesus”.And THEN…head on over to Life on Side B to listen to David and TJ's reflections on interviewing people with diverse views and where Side B conversations are evolving. Listen to the other half of this episode here: www.lifeonsideb.com/episodes/episode/1d868a02/s6e1-or-tj-and-david-on-new-kinship-and-the-future-of-side-b-crossover-episodeComments on how LoSB impacted you? Send your audio message to LoSB here: https://www.lifeonsideb.com/finalseasonNote: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand an incredible amount. If you're new to the conversation, I don't know what to tell you. Welcome! And you might want to check out:* New Kinship's episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠* Life on Side B's explainer article: The Four Sides—★ About Our GuestsJosh was born and raised in South Florida. He is the creator and producer of Life on Side B, a podcast exploring the joys, beauty, and challenges of living the traditional sexual ethic as LGBT+/same sex attracted Christians. He is a spiritual director and inclusion consultant with a private practice called Wholly Ourselves, and he is a pastor at his local church, Providencia WPB. He holds a DMin from Kairos University and a MA in Biblical Literature from Nyack College. In his spare time, you can normally find Josh doing one of three things: hosting friends at his home with his family, watching Golden Girls, or working out.Ashley is a queer woman in a mixed-orientation marriage of over a decade and has a three-year-old son. She and her husband met on the mission field in Latin America with Youth With A Mission and currently reside in the southern United States.—★ Timestamps(00:00) New Kinship #55 - Life on Side B's Final Season, with Josh and Ashley(01:48) At the time, there weren't any Side B podcasts(05:52) Episodes that changed us: Telling our vulnerable stories(08:56) Why is Life on Side B ending?(13:16) What Josh and Ashley learned in 5 seasons(19:57) Where should the Side B movement go?(26:45) Josh's upcoming podcast(s) and work!(30:53) Ashley's work with Your Other...Family?(34:01) Send a message to LoSB folks!—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

TJ and David were interviewed on Joel Carini's podcast, the Natural Theologian, a previous guest of ours, to discuss the role of marriage, family, other significant others, covenants, Side B perspectives on kinship, and more! Check it out! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

Jason Thompson leads Portland Fellowship, a Christian organization pursuing freedom from “homosexuality and transgender confusion” through Christ. In our terms, Jason's org is “Side X” and we are “Side B”. Jason himself has thought a bit about the various positions in the faith + sexuality debate, and he has his own description of four “sides”. Between these groupings are some seemingly wide gaps in how we, as Christians, think about sexual orientation, restoration, brokenness, and identities… tough stuff, but we are grateful for Jason's willingness to talk about our differences as Christians.About Our Guest: Jason Thompson experienced unwanted same sex desires in his youth, and discovered Portland Fellowship in 1989, where he received discipleship and loving support to find the freedom he was seeking. Jason now serves as executive director of Portland Fellowship; he holds a master's degree in counseling from Western Seminary and is an ordained minister. Jason and his wife Amy live outside of Portland with their two sons.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out our episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship(00:43) About Jason and Portland Fellowship(03:29) Clarifying Side B/X and Jason's chart(17:24) Defining: male and female in the image of God(20:45) Defining: sexual orientation, homosexuality(32:50) Defining: "repentance from lust"(34:06) Defining: gay and straight(43:18) Juxtaposing Side X ("Rebuild") and Side B ("Resist") - change, role of marriage(51:58) Change is possible--but what kind of change?(01:08:39) We (all of us) don't police language(01:11:54) "Should that person still hold a gay label when all that has changed in their life?"(01:16:22) Wrapping up: Final thoughts—★ Links and References* Jason's 4 Views PDF: “Differing Views on Christian Doctrine, Identity and Homosexuality”—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

Content warning: This episode includes discussions of suicidality.Simon Kent Fung is the creator and host of Dear Alana, a limited series podcast telling the story of Alana Chen, a devoutly Catholic young woman who wrestled with same-sex attraction alongside her faith before taking her own life in 2019. Simon found that Alana's journey with the Catholic faith and conversion therapies paralleled his own story in notable ways. On this episode, we talked with Simon about his experience of conversion therapy or “reparative therapy” for LGBTQ Christian people, the expectations and harms that accompany it, and what a healthy spiritual journey and community could be.Learn more about the podcast Dear Alana at http://dearalana.com.Learn more about Simon at http://simonkentfung.com.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #53 - Conversion Therapy's Legacy, with Simon Kent Fung from "Dear Alana”(02:20) The story of Dear Alana(13:28) Unpacking conversion/reparative therapy(28:24) Therapy: what we expect, what good things we need?(43:52) Leaving conversion therapy, identifying harms(55:23) Thinking now about "sexual orientation" as a concept(01:01:56) Finding a healthier spirituality through community(01:11:00) What, to you, is a good sexual ethic these days?—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

Our reasons for changing our name. Including: discussions of kinship, old and new commandments, belonging, mutual solidarity, and more.—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

Pastor Shalom is a multi-national Nigerian in a mixed-orientation marriage now in pastoral ministry. has a profound journey of faith, marriage, and understanding her sexual identity. We were moved by her story and the strength of her love for God and others, so we asked her to share it with you all. Whether you see yourself in her story or are listening to learn about someone whose journey is very different from your own—we hope it's an encouragement to you, too!★ About Our GuestPastor Shalom Liddick was born in Nigeria and spent some of her youth in Central America before moving to the United States. Her diverse background and rich cultural heritage have shaped her perspective on life and faith. She is most passionate about walking alongside others as they experience the sweetness found in Jesus. She considers herself a practicing theologian.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #52 - Affectionate towards Christ: A Journey of Faith with Pastor Shalom(02:15) Pastor Shalom's story(16:46) God became my everything(28:56) Who is my identifier?(36:31) Revoice: Little gifts of love from God(43:00) Conversations in the African diaspora: upholding (all?) Scripture(48:36) Attraction and mixed-orientation marriage(54:20) Not sexualizing relationships(58:53) Advice for those considering marriage?(01:01:36) What do you tell your kids?(01:04:14) Remember whose we are: LGBT gifts to the church(01:11:40) "We all have the same Father"—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin P., gavinpopkenart.com ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

David Bennett has a lot to say about erotic relationships with God—but it's probably not what you think! As a former atheistic gay activist now turned celibate gay theologian and follower of Jesus, David's reflections on Christian sexuality and discipleship are both personal and deeply informed by Christian historical tradition. David sat down with TJ and David Frank to talk about a theology of desire, Christian thinkers from Augustine to Aquinas to today, Side B activism, and practical discipleship for Christians today. Join us!Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides” in our conversation: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ About Our GuestDr. David Bennett recently completed his doctorate (DPhil) in theology at Oxford University where he now works as a postdoctoral research fellow in the Theology and Religion Faculty. His thesis is in the process of being published, tentatively entitled, Queering the Queer: A Theological Ethics of Same-Sex Desire and Gay Celibacy in Contemporary Anglican Thought. He specializes in the relationship between the Trinity, Christian ethics, patristics, queer theology, discipleship and contemporary Anglican theology, especially the role of desire in knowing God. David also serves as a theologian in residence at Reality San Francisco and Church of the City, New York, and an Associate Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall. Find him on Instagram or X (@DavidACBennett) or on his website at dacbennett.com.—★ Timestamps(00:00) Introduction(s)(05:00) The heart desires, the will chooses, the mind justifies(16:11) "You're just denying your sexuality" - defining “erotic”(25:45) How many kinds of love are there?(33:04) Eros and fear-of (or "Lutheran pietistic excess")(44:25) We need more Side B activism(56:58) What's going on with the Church of England?(01:13:20) Beyond an “ethic”: pursuing personal integration—★ Links and ReferencesEros and Agape (1930, 1936) by Anders Nygren (Wikipedia)Deus Caritas est (2005), Pope Benedict XVI (Wikipedia)—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support…Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin P. ★ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit newkinship.substack.com

Announcement: Hey ya'll! We have a new podcast name! Welcome to New Kinship, formerly known as Communion and Shalom. We felt it was time for a more specifically focused name, with the same goal of focusing on the ways we belong to each other as Christians, as brothers and sisters, in the complexities of sexuality, ethnicity, and living in community. Join us as we wade into those complexities with people we both agree and disagree with.>We'll be updating our name across all our platforms in the next few weeks. Keep an eye out.

It's hard to know how to approach a topic that is simultaneously so personal and so full of theological implications. We, David Frank and TJ Espinoza, open up about our developing thoughts on trans experiences as it relates to the complexities of gender as both a social construct and part of biblical theology. In light of this, how might Christians consider ideas around third genders? How should they address violence against trans individuals? Are chosen pronouns an opportunity to manifest neighborliness or courage? Listen in as we try to lay some foundations, as we begin to wade into these sensitive challenges.__Timestamps(00:38) Today's snapshot: a preliminary-thoughts episode(06:43) Defining Transgender(08:00) Definitions and cultural uses of sex vs. gender(21:41) Acknowledging intersex(24:06) No violence is ever Christian(25:49) Pronouns, but we didn't get into it(26:43) Sex isn't a social construction, but gender is(32:43) "Third gender" concepts in different cultures(50:20) Questions we still have for trans people__If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Transformation is a tricky word in Christian circles, particularly when we're talking about sexuality. What does it mean to be “transformed”? For a gay man, does it mean “no longer gay”? And what does that mean??We talked with Nate Oyloe and Luca Jo Groppoli from Agape First Ministries, an organization dedicated to discipling and seeking God's transformation. In our framing on this podcast, we would call their organization “side X”—that is, generally pursuing and seeing the good in people becoming “ex gay.” Since this isn't a position we (David and TJ) hold, we were eager to have a conversation about our similarities and differences: personal stories, theological and pastoral approaches, and what the heck transformation could mean. It's a tough one.—About Our GuestsPastor Nate Oyloe is the founder and director of Agape First Ministries. Nate has ministered to the sexually and relationally broken since 2000. He has taught nationally on issues of gender and the redemptive power of God. He and his wife, two sons, and daughter live in Minneapolis, MN.Luca Jo Groppoli is an ordained graduate of Christ for the Nation's Bible College. Luca serves as the associate director with Agape First Ministries and is passionate about disciple making and sharing that Jesus can and does, in fact, transform people, sharing her own story of living as a transgender male for over three decades.www.agapefirstministries.org—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side X” and “Side B” (and others) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠Timestamps(00:46) Introducing Nate and Luca(08:09) What has finding freedom meant to you?(10:59) Why Agape First? What is it you do?(17:04) What's the nature of same-sex attraction: psychological, traumatic, biological, spiritual?(36:10) Transformation: shifting away from same-sex attraction?(57:06) Praying for healing: over disabilities, over sexuality?(01:01:52) Statistics and experience: does being "ex-gay" actually stick?(01:09:58) Is side B more dangerous than side A?—If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Join us for a special in-person episode where we, TJ and David, share highlights and insights from our time at the Revoice Conference. We discuss the conference's mission, our personal experiences, and key takeaways on fostering community and kinship within the church.Highlights mentioned:* Times of Worship * Worship Leader Wes* Misty Irons and David Bennet* Affinity Groups* Breakout engagement* Hospitality and overall conference timing* Connecting with incredible peopleA few other highlights not mentioned:* Multicultural leadership* Multilingual and ASL representation* Breakout by Sister Heather Kristine* Brenna Blain's heart and conviction reminded me of Francis Chan- Link to Revoice Conference videos (free for one year!): https://revoicelibrary.sardius.live/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Coming in hot, folks… David Frank and TJ Espinoza reflect on sex positivity and how they see parts of the Christian Bible interacting with sexual desire, goodness, transcendence, and meaning. There's nothing simple about the relationships between sex, marriage, having kids, pleasure, and our spiritual callings. But in those tensions, we also see goodness and fruitfulness. We hope that this discussion prompts more thinking for you all on what a comprehensive Christian sexual ethic can look like.This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠.__________Timestamps(03:23) What Sex Positive Usually Means(10:48) Evangelical Churches Are Just As Pro-Sex(16:55) Genesis, Song of Songs, Leviticus, Matthew, Revelation(17:51) Sexual Difference in the Garden (Genesis)(19:02) Consent Is Biblical (1st Corinthians)(20:13) Erotic Poetry Isn't Smut (Song of Songs)(26:04) Sex Is...Transcendent?...But NOT Worship (Leviticus)(45:33) Jesus: Yeah, but... there's no marriage in heaven (Matthew)(51:32) The (Sexless?) Bride of Christ (Revelation)(53:31) Let's Hear It for... Sex Mediocrity!__________Links and ReferencesWe referenced these sections of the Bible in this episode:* Genesis 2-3* Songs of Songs/Solomon (whole book)* Leviticus 15:18* Matthew 22:30* Revelation 19* James 1:17* Isaiah 56:3-5__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Coming right up, some hot takes from Greg Coles on:* Why would you call yourself gay if you're a Christian? That's not your identity…* Wouldn't it be better if you got married (to someone of the opposite sex)?* How do I talk to [person] about [LGBTQ sexuality topic we disagree on]?If you are gay and Christian, or know someone who's gay and a Christian, somebody in your life is asking these questions, and a whole lot more. This episode is for you, for sharing, and for further discussion.Background: In Spring 2024, Greg Coles talked with a group of college students and campus ministers. We thought it was such a great primer on thinking Christianly about sexuality that we wanted to share it with you, slightly echo-y room and all.This is not the end of the conversation—please reach out with your questions, comments, and further discussion!About Our GuestGreg is the author of Single, Gay, Christian: A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity and No Longer Strangers: Finding Belonging in a World of Alienation. You can find most of his creative activities curated at gregorycoles.com and at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender.__________Timestamps(02:42) Greg on writing Single, Gay, Christian and his PhD(05:01) Why use "gay" to describe yourself as a Christian?(09:34) A vision for marriage-free abstinence and delight in the body(17:01) Theological vs practical questions on sexuality(20:30) Changes in sexual orientation: happens? is normative? Mixed orientation marriages?(25:12) Marriage and singleness as complements(30:08) How am I a gift to the body around me?(33:16) Q&A: Straight Catholic priests can CHOOSE celibacy or marriage(37:05) Q&A: Concerns about taking the identity of being gay(43:13) Q&A: How do I love my lesbian sister well?(46:53) Q&A: Discipleship convos: I can't believe in Jesus if it means THIS for LGBTQ people...(51:46) Q&A: Sharing the gospel in an identity politics world__________Links and ReferencesGay and Catholic and Tenderness by Eve Tushnet__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Tim Otto is a man of intentional commitments: he lives in intentional Christian community; he pastors a church in San Francisco; he's also gay and celibate, while still affirming gay marriage (Side A). Tim talked with co-hosts TJ and David Frank about his book Oriented to Faith, compassionate approaches, “third way” communities and “disputable” theological differences, celibate partnerships, and the importance of close community living.Tim was a kind and engaging dialogue partner and we loved having this conversation with him! No matter where you land on the faith and sexuality topics, we hope our discussion ministers to you also.About Our GuestTim Otto has lived in an intentional Christian community called Church of the Sojourners for 34 years and is one of its co-pastors. He has a Master of Theology degree from Duke Divinity School, is the author of Oriented to Faith: Transforming the Conflict over Gay Relationships, and loves walking around the Mission District of San Francisco, where he lives. You can find his recent writing on Substack at “Living in Extraordinary Love”: https://timotto.substack.com—Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” Here's a quick summary:* "Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.Timestamps(1:13) Tim's book: encouraging dialogue and love across sides(8:03) Idolatry of the "traditional family"(16:11) Taking a vow of celibacy as a side A gay man(21:38) Our takes: on the authority and continuity of Scripture(34:27) What traditionalist viewpoints do you find most compelling?(38:54) What has moved you toward an affirming position?(42:55) Are celibate partnerships gnostic?(52:56) What makes a healthy/acceptable marriage? (same-sex, polyamory, polygamy…)(1:07:18) How does San Francisco influence you?(1:14:24) Bonus question: the "common purse" in Tim's communityLinks and ReferencesFor your easier searching…* Sacred Cows: Exploring Contemporary Idolatry by J.A. Walter* The Drama of Scripture: Finding Our Place in the Biblical Story by Craig Bartholemew and Michael Goheen* Kevin Vanhoozer, theologian* Tenderness: A Gay Christian's Guide to Unlearning Rejection and Experiencing God's Extravagant Love by Eve Tushnet* “Century of the Self” documentary is on Youtube* Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul'sIf you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Nate Collins has been part of the Christian conversation around faith and sexuality for decades. He founded Revoice, a conference and ministry for queer/same-sex-attracted Christians, and he's written two books on the topic. Also, Nate is himself gay or same-sex-attracted and in a mixed-orientation marriage. We are looking forward to sharing Nate's and Revoice's story with you, and also encouraging you to attend the Revoice conference with us this summer!PS: at Revoice2024, come visit TJ and David at our workshop on (Re)discovering Kinship beyond Marriage. We would love to talk to you!For $10 off Revoice registration, use PROMO CODE: RevoicePodAbout Our GuestNate Collins is the founding president of Revoice, a ministry with a mission to support and encourage gay, bisexual, same-sex attracted, or other queer Christians—and those who love them—to live out the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality. He is the author of All But Invisible: Exploring Identity Questions at the Intersection of Faith, Gender, and Sexuality (Zondervan, 2017), as well as a forthcoming volume about sexuality in the Biblical Theology for Life series from Zondervan Academic. He has an Masters of Divinity and PhD from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Nate and his wife, Sara, live in St. Louis, MO, with their three children.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠Timestamps(1:42) Who is Nate, apart from Revoice?(10:04) On "mixed orientation marriages”(23:18) Joining the faith & sexuality conversation over 20 years(47:40) Fruit of Revoice: Hope in flourishing, community(49:40) Aaand the Revoice conference promo code(50:26) Does Side B "mandate celibacy"?(54:57) Talking "Side X", pursuing change, new creation(1:01:14) Identity politics for ChristiansLinks and ReferencesHere are some resources or terms we mentioned in this episode, in case it's helpful for your understanding and/or Google searching…Spiritual Friendship blog: spiritualfriendship.org/Nashville Statement: cbmw.org/nashville-statement/GCN=Gay Christian NetworkQCF=Queer Christian FellowshipExodus=Exodus International MinistriesIf you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

How do we build communities of collaboration and care? Are our communities in the West in crisis? What are the “common objects of love” that we share, and how do we—average Christians who care—seek those out and build on them?We were delighted to talk with Jake Meador on some of these questions, which he touches on in his first book, In Search of the Common Good. Join us as we consider different angles on the practices we engage with that can change the imagination of our time.Jake Meador (jakemeador.com) is a writer, speaker, and editor from Lincoln, Nebraska. He writes about place, politics, culture, and the ways that Christian faith speaks to all of the various questions that those topics raise. He also wrote a thesis on Kwame Nkrumah, a mid-20th century Ghanaian politician. He's the author of two books, In Search of the Common Good: Christian Fidelity in a Fractured World and What Are Christians For?: Life Together at the End of the World. He serves as the editor-in-chief at Mere Orthodoxy (mereorthodoxy.com), a contributing editor with Plough magazine, and a board member with the Davenant Institute.Timestamps(02:23) A crisis of common life(10:21) Example: Declining birth rates as a social problem(19:07) Practical recs: asking for help, offering home(29:04) The historical church on property rights(34:16) Practices for communities: caught, not taught(38:22) Roots we don't choose(44:23) Identity is particular; Christianity is still bigger(47:31) Who's on the land, who's good for the land?(01:03:48) OK but we gotta talk about Kwame Nkrumah. Wild.Links and References in This EpisodeYa'll. Jake is a well-read man. We got a long list of books for your perusing pleasure (and easier searching).* Strangers in a Strange Land: Living the Catholic Faith in a Post-Christian World, Archbishop Charles J. Chaput (2017)* The Benedict Option: A Strategy for Christians in a Post-Christian Nation, Rod Dreher (2017)* Resurrecting the Idea of Christian Society, R. R. Reno (2016)* The Unwinding: An Inner History of the New America, George Packer (2014)* Out of the Ashes: Rebuilding American Culture, Anthony Esolen (2017)* Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community, Robert Putnam (2000)* Nancy Pearcey (author)* Kirkpatrick Sale (author)* Remaking the World: How 1776 Created the Post-Christian West, Andrew Wilson (2023)* Wendell Berry (author)—I don't even know what to tell you, he's written a lot.* Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution, Carl Trueman (2020)* Why Marx Was Right, Terry Eagleton (2018)* An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States, Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz (2015)* Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants, Robin Wall Kimmerer (2015* Pope Francis on a “throwaway” society (article link)* John Paul II on a “culture of death” (Evangelium Vitae (1995))* The Cold War and the Color Line: American Race Relations in the Global Arena, Thomas Borstelmann (2003)—And here are some additional resources or terms mentioned in this episode, not a resource, exactly, but it might make this conversation searchable/accessible to global listeners:L'Abri is a “Christian residential study center ministry”Several theologians, church fathers, and theorists talked about property rights: John Calvin, St. Basil of Caesarea in Cappadocia, John Locke, and Emil Brunner on “the inner infinity of God's law”.If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Let's talk about common pantry, ya'll. Today we're taking on the nitty gritty details of sharing food with people, usually those you live with. Why on earth does this even need to be talked about?Well, those of you in a “traditional” couple-with-children household probably already share food (often whether or not you want to). But any of you living alone or with other single roommates may find sharing food with others appalling, unappealing, or just plain impossible.Friend of the podcast Hannah Hiler is here to tell you differently! David talks with Hannah about why she advocates for sharing a common pantry with others—why it follows God's call for sacrificial community, how it creates generous hospitality, and some details that can make it work or fail.Hannah is a graphic designer who is passionate about community and hospitality. She currently lives in a community house in South Minneapolis.—This is part of an ongoing series on The Commons. For more, check out a couple other episodes:Our first episode on Imagining the Commons, with Brendan Johnson (#30): https://open.substack.com/pub/communionshalom/p/30-imagining-the-commons-with-brendan-7eeA Workshop with David and Elena on Building Households and Communities Together (#39): https://open.substack.com/pub/communionshalom/p/39-building-households-and-communities-c53Joseph Pearce on Transformative Economics (#38): https://communionshalom.substack.com/p/38-economics-for-local-community-e78Timestamps(00:37) Introducing Hannah(03:28) Christian community=Living with others(8:14) “Common Pantry: Everything in the fridge is yours(25:18) Free beans and rice for everyone?(31:53) When you SHOULDN'T do Common Pantry(40:56) Single human seeking independence__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

David's friend Josh had a pretty radical experience of “healing”… Supernatural healing is always a complex topic, and with sexual attraction this continues to prove true. Does orientation change? Should we pray for it to change? Josh used to experience same-sex sexual attraction, and through some unusual events, he is also increasingly attracted to women. We offer his story as a provoking thought piece as we try to make sense of how God may work in each of our lives. Note: This episode briefly includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised. __________ Timestamps (1:22) "An overwhelmingly positive church upbringing” (10:33) God makes a ... joke (18:42) Experiencing (bi?) attraction after healing (29:13) I don't prescribe theology, but don't write off healing (43:41) Has progressive theology ever been persuasive to you? __________ Links and References Something They Will Not Forget by Joshua Gibbs “A History of Romance in the West—Part 2 with Kathryn Mogk Wagner” - episode #19, published 12/8/2022 Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… → Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact → Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom → Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Voice Actor (Josh overdub): Carl Swenson Podcast Manager: Elena

*Sign up for the Feb 22 conference with promo code—A Community of Belonging, from Transform MN!* And come visit the Communion & Shalom team while you're there :) https://transformmn.org/event/a-community-of-belonging-sexuality-gender-beyond-personal-identity/ (Promo Code: SHALOM) Schelli Cronk, Becky Hestness, and Kim Klayum work together at Transform MN, equipping Christian leaders across Minnesota to engage complex issues from a biblical perspective. They are also good friends who have personally and professionally been challenged over time to grow their love and care for LGBTQ friends and family. We are inspired by their deep convictions and equally deep support for LGBTQ folks. We got to hear a bit of their stories and how God's been working through them in their communities. __________ Timestamps (01:17) Introducing Transform MN (06:36) Personally/professionally, how do you arrive at this conversation? (26:29) Being good allies, good friends (37:29) Sharing truth, grace, and applying it equitably (44:27) Encouragement and caution: be in relationship with people __________ Links and References Transform MN: https://transformmn.org/ Grace/Truth videos from the Center for Faith, Gender, and Sexuality (Preston Sprinkle): https://ondemand.centerforfaith.com/courses/grace-truth Revoice conference: https://www.revoice.org/ Laurie Krieg: https://lauriekrieg.com/ TJ's episode on covenant brotherhood: https://www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/on-covenant-brotherhood-with-special-reference-to-tjs-covenant/ — This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

David Frank (you know him) and Elena (podcast manager) gave a workshop talk at Revoice 2023. It was pretty great, and also, predictably, hit-or-miss with sound quality. Enjoy! __________ Links and References The Life We're Looking For: Reclaiming Relationship in a Technological World by Andy Crouch (publisher's link) Our workshop presentation: [Link to Google presentation] Our worksheet and resources handout: [Link to Google doc] __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Joseph Pearce's book Small Is Still Beautiful is a compelling spotlight on the "well-kept secret" of economist E. F. Schumacher. David Frank and Brendan Johnson (from episode 30) talked with Joseph about small localism versus globalism, cooperatives and sharing versus capitalist individualism, and the like. Join us for a delightful conversation around the commons, community, and collaborative flourishing. About Our Guest A native of England, Joseph Pearce is the internationally acclaimed author of many books, which include bestsellers such as The Quest for Shakespeare, Tolkien: Man and Myth, The Unmasking of Oscar Wilde, C. S. Lewis and The Catholic Church, Literary Converts, Wisdom and Innocence: A Life of G.K. Chesterton, Solzhenitsyn: A Soul in Exile and Old Thunder: A Life of Hilaire Belloc. He is an author, publisher, editor, lecturer, and professor. His personal website is www.jpearce.co. __________ Timestamps (0:26) Introducing Joseph Pearce (2:51) Encountering E. F. Schumacher's Small Is Beautiful (5:38) Modern economics that don't lead to flourishing (7:45) Distributing wealth, local solidarity (15:13) Mondragon Corporation: Solidarity in practice (18:03) The world since 20 years ago: what's changed? (22:01) Advice for voting with your dollars (27:45) Is there a risk in things being too small? (32:47) Reading recommendations __________ Links and References Small Is Still Beautiful: Economics as if Families Mattered by Joseph Pearce (2006)- link to publisher Joseph Pearce - Facebook, Instagram Small Is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered by E. F. Schumacher (1973) - link to publisher Thomas Storck Wilhelm Röpke __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Catholic canon lawyer Daniel Quinan works for the Catholic church, not the state legal system, reviewing marriage annullment cases for the Catholic Archdiocese. If you're Catholic, maybe you're familiar with this system. If you're not, it may be totally new to you. We wanted to hear from Daniel on how Catholic understandings of justice, catechism, and canon law directly impact treatment of those in the church who are LGBT/queer/same-sex attracted. David and TJ talk with Daniel about marriage, procreation, contraception, sexual intercourse, and a bunch of other topics that are legal and technical and somehow still might make your grandmother blush. (Although… we don't know your grandmother. Maybe she'd be fine.) Join us for our brief educational tour! About Our Guest: Daniel Quinan is a canon lawyer (JCL) currently working for the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis. His public writing on LGBTQ Catholic matters is currently published on the Spiritual Friendship blog, and also in a number of canon law Advisory Opinions (available on Academia.edu). You can find him more informally on most social media platforms @masterjedi747, which is his old AIM screen name, a fact that stands as a testimony to his millennial nerd credentials. __________ Timestamps (0:00:26) Daniel's background: Catholic, canon lawyer, side B (0:10:16) What is canon law? (0:20:39) The Catholic tradition on same-sex attraction or orientation (0:30:21) What is sex for? (0:40:23) Contraception and the meaning of marriage (0:44:31) Why can some people marry but not others (in the Catholic church)? (0:53:24) "Disordered" in the Catholic catechism (1:16:45) Celibate partnerships/chaste same sex unions in Catholic tradition and law (1:25:12) Perspectives on Father James Martin (1:28:20) A vision for queer people in the Catholic church __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… → Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact → Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom → Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Linden Hope's debut album comes from her collection of songs processing through her own journey of faith and sexuality. Please contribute love to the "Bees" by supporting her kickstarter by November 21st. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lindseyhope/songs-for-the-bees-a-gay-womans-journey-of-faith *The "Bees" is a term of affection for the Side B community, LGBTQ/SSA followers of Jesus who pick up their cross and follow him in a traditional Christian sexual ethic through the difficult terrain of their sexualities. Additional Link: Switchfoot Has Never Let You Down - Common Good (https://commongoodmag.com/switchfoot-has-never-let-you-down/) (00:00) Intro song "Chosen" by Linden Hope (16:32) Song preview of "Wild" by Linden Hope (18:54) Kickstarter Description - ends 11/21

Anna Carter and Shannon Ochoa lead Eden Invitation, a Catholic Side B ministry for LGBTQ+ discipleship. TJ and David talked with them about their founding story, mystical theology, Pride Month, the opportunity and challenges of giant gray areas, theories of change, and so much more. We love how intensely they pursue loving God and loving their communities well. Please join us for this delightful conversation. (And yes, the retreat they mention has already happened—but there's always next year!) About Our Guests: As culture shifts, Eden Invitation believes the Church must be there to meet it. We are striving disciples with LGBTQ+ experiences, building community with others who desire a way of life in congruence with Christ and His Church. Through in-person events and online community, Eden Invitation creates space to receive the whole person, grow systems of mutual support, and empower for creative discipleship. Anna Carter is the co-founder and President of Eden Invitation. Anna's tenacious faith in Jesus predated her own experience of same-sex desires. Her passion for catechesis and evangelization brought her to the Franciscan University of Steubenville, NET Ministries, and the high school classroom. Now through directing the work of Eden Invitation, Anna proclaims that there is resurrected life in the midst of our longings. Anna wanted to found Eden Invitation in order to ensure there was a just pastoral response and to give light to what a “yes” to the Church's teachings can look like. Shannon Ochoa is the co-founder and Vice-President of Eden Invitation. Shannon graduated from the University of Wisconsin-Madison with degrees in Social Welfare and Gender & Women's Studies. She has fallen for men and for women, but ultimately she fell for the beauty of Christ and His Church. Prior to founding Eden Invitation, Shannon worked in college campus ministry with The Evangelical Catholic and Brew City Catholic. She felt compelled to co-found Eden Invitation because she wanted disciples to know they were good, to not be afraid of themselves, and to find dynamic, faithful community. If you're looking for her, try the shore of the nearest body of water. She'll be in a hammock. __________ Timestamps (2:20) Introducing Anna and Shannon (3:40) The beginnings of Eden Invitation (7:32) EI distinctives: Stepping into the longing together in community (15:54) Connections for non-queer people? (20:18) Catholic tradition on disordered desires, celibacy traditions, gift of self (33:44) Relating to Courage and Desert Streams (35:41) "People just assumed we were only a women's ministry” (39:06) The language question: "We try to let the air out of it" (44:38) Healing or change of sexual orientation: How do you respond? (54:41) Engaging gender discordance (1:00:13) On Pride: "We're trying to protect people from the shrapnel” (1:03:15) Developing the future, “gigantic gray areas” (1:06:02) Hope and barriers in the Catholic conversation (1:13:03) How to connect with Eden Invitation __________ Links and References Eden Invitation website: www.edeninvitation.com EI Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/edeninvitation/ EI Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/edeninvitation __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… → Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact → Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom → Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Marco Casanova is a Catholic leader of a ministry called Living Waters, helping people pursue healing, often around sexuality. TJ and David had a very engaging talk with Marco about his take on homosexuality/same-sex attraction, marriage and singleness, Pope John Paul II, and the work of healing and transformation. Within the Christian sexuality conversation, Marco's approach might be called “Side X”, although he differs from the approach of older “ex-gay” ministries. Join us in listening and learning from our guest as we seek to understand his story and perspective. About Our Guest: Marco Casanova is Associate Director of Desert Stream Ministries. He encountered Living Waters as a seminarian seeking answers in his broken sexuality. After eight years, Marco left priestly formation and joined the Desert Stream team. His primary task is to oversee Living Waters USA and to equip lay faithful to run effective healing groups in their church communities. He married his wife Ania in December 2022. The Casanovas are parishioners of St. Peter's Parish, Brookside, MO. __________ Timestamps (01:30) Marco's story of same sex attraction, sexual addiction (14:25) What is "integration," at Living Waters? (20:49) Dating with zero chemistry--advice? (23:25) What does "spousal" design mean for chosen celibacy? (28:35) Can everyone achieve “integration”? (34:10) Does same-sex attraction have any gifts/goods? (37:59) Brothers, sisters, spouses, and the "safety" of gay guys… (45:13) If there's not marriage/sex in heaven...? (49:07) On Exodus International, ex-gay ministries, and conversion therapy (59:26) Differences between Side B and your perspective? (1:08:25) What is authentic theological anthropology? (Can SSA be a part of moving forward?) (1:25:11) Do you know Eden Invitation? __________ Links and References We Mentioned Marco's ministry, Desert Streams: desertstream.org Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II - Wikipedia, new book translation (2006) Elizabeth Moberly - Wikipedia Joseph Nicolosi - Wikipedia If you like this podcast, please consider… __________ →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Misty Irons has been part of the faith and sexuality conversation for over 20 years. We were honored to talk to her about her journey with Side B, being an ally to queer people, and what an “accommodationist” view of Side A could look like. We're grateful for her perspective and her intense care and thoughtfulness on topics of faith and sexuality. About Our Guest: Misty Irons is a friend of LGBTQ Christians and has served this community as a conference speaker, seminar leader, and podcast guest, representing a straight-ally perspective. For 16 years she maintained a blog on faith and sexuality. She is a graduate of Westminster Seminary California (M.A., Biblical Studies) and a member of the Presbyterian Church in America. She currently resides in Los Angeles, California. — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality __________ Timestamps (00:57) Introducing Misty Irons (04:17) Entering the conversation on faith and sexuality (14:06) Getting involved in QCF (27:28) Inside experience vs. outside "promises” of ex-gay ministries (”Side X”) (35:55) Sexuality theology in Presbyterian and Reformed circles: sin, misery, and ____? (45:10) What has it meant to be an ally to queer people? (54:40) Comparing terms: "Gentile Christian" and "queer Christian” __________ Links and References Misty's blog with links to recent talks: moremusingson.blogspot.com __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… → Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact → Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom → Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Kristyn Komarnicki started Oriented to Love 13 years ago, almost accidentally, in an effort to include the voices of gay people who weren't present in Christian spaces that she was involved in. Since then, this program, under the aegis of the Christians for Social Action, has become deeper, broader, and more intentional about engaging Christians who have different stances on LGBT topics and bringing them into dialogue with each other. We talked with Kristyn about how she facilitates dialogues between people with very different convictions. We appreciate her work: in helping us ask better questions. In practicing care. In becoming oriented toward love. We hope you'll join us! About Our Guest: Kristyn Komarnicki is director of dialogue and convening at Christians for Social Action (CSA). The creator of CSA's Oriented to Love dialogues about sexual/gender diversity in the church, Kristyn gathers Christians of different sexual orientations, gender identities, and theological convictions together so they can begin to know, understand, and love each other, in search of a unity that is deeper than agreement. Fascinated and encouraged by what happens when we approach our “other” in the posture of a learner—with vulnerability, bravery, curiosity and humility—Kristyn enjoys helping people have more generative conversations, reframing conflict not as something to be feared or avoided but as an opportunity for maturing in Christ. A xenophile who loves to travel and swap stories with people from around the world, Kristyn has studied and worked on three continents, having made a home in Paris, Toronto, and Hong Kong. Today she lives in Philadelphia with her husband of over 30 years. — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ __________ Timestamps (00:23) A transformative journey of privilege (08:16) What if everyone takes the posture of a learner? (16:56) How do you/OTL navigate tensions in this (LGBT) conversation? (20:34) Postures of the heart that help this conversation (29:17) Dialoguing with truth, love, and the slippery slope (39:52) Being a straight ally (44:15) Resources for getting involved in OTL (45:25) How has OTL affected participants' lives? (48:13) Resources for better question-asking __________ Links and References Ask Powerful Questions: Create Conversations That Matter by Will Wise and Chad Littlefield I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times by Monica Guzman High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped and How to Get Out of It by Amanda Ripley The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey Oriented to Love program: christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/ Tip Sheet: “Crafting Dialogue-Nurturing Questions” from OTL Workshop: “Transforming Conflict through Curiosity” __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… → Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact → Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom → Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

In the spring, TJ attended a small dialogue, Oriented to Love (OTL), sponsored by the Christians for Social Action. OTL hosts thoughtful conversations across difference, specifically among Christians, both queer and straight, who take on different beliefs and positions on questions of gender, sexuality, and how those topics interact with their faith. It's a rare opportunity when someone can hold space for people to meet, care well, listen carefully, and share their stories honestly. Oriented to Love aims not to change anyone's mind, but to facilitate listening and thoughtful dialogue among participants. In this episode, TJ talked David through his experience in this group conversation and the many additional questions that emerged from the experience. — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality Also note that “Side C” is sometimes used to refer to a perspective that doesn't choose a “side” or tries to make space for all “sides” to exist in unity. __________ Timestamps (00:27) What Is "Oriented to Love"? (09:53) Stepping into the first room of the conversation (14:41) The second room: Not just listening, but sharing convictions (21:31) Discomfort is inevitable (27:49) "We don't think you're a worse Christian” (37:56) Heresy, inheriting the kingdom, sin, salvation… (44:34) 3 questions that distinguish "wings" of Side B (51:14) Faith and works, degree of severity, fear and trembling (1:03:49) We recommend OTL __________ Links and References “Oriented to Love”: https://christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/ __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Hey there! We recorded an episode at Revoice 2023—a conference supporting Christians who are sexual minorities seeking to live out their faith according to a traditional, biblical sexual ethic. We loved doing this live episode recording with the Revoice community, and we are delighted to welcome Greg Coles and Erin Phelps to the podcast stage: Gregory Coles is the author of Single, Gay, Christian (InterVarsity Press, 2017) and No Longer Strangers (InterVarsity Press, 2021). He holds a PhD in English from Penn State and lives in Idaho's Treasure Valley, where he works as a writer and speaker. Greg is a Senior Research Fellow at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender and curates most of his creative activities at gregorycoles.com. Erin Phelps is a Lumbee and Waccamaw Siouan woman living in Charlotte, North Carolina. Her interests include, anti-racism, sustainable fashion, and boy bands. Currently she is working to building a community for Side B women called Your Other Sisters alongside Your Other Brothers. We talked with Erin and Greg about the social construction of sexual orientation language—what it means to use human-created categories like “gay” or “queer” in a way that affects our daily realities. We talk about whether the words we choose to describe ourselves matter, how you might come out to someone in different languages, the need to use language to push back against oppression, and much more. So, please bear with the echoes and sound quality of a live Q&A—this was an exciting episode to create with the Revoice community, and now we're excited to share it with you! — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find our Communion & Shalom episode #3 helpful, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality — And, in case you're listening to this with children around…This episode briefly includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised. __________ Timestamps (3:43) Introducing Greg Coles and Erin Phelps! (6:43) Dr. Gregory Coles explains "social construction” (10:31) An abridged history of sexual orientation (18:32) Are you "on board" with sexual orientation? (29:20) Advice for the church: the telos for my life, and labels in Florida (33:35) Q: What about “reclaiming queer" as a response to over-sexualization? (40:52) Labels as self-determination ("People want to be called something nice") (44:00) Q: Using your indigenous culture's labels for sexuality (52:09) Q: How do you share sexual orientation in another language? (57:38) Q: Talking to the next generation about sexuality __________ Resources and References In early usage, “heterosexuality” and “homosexuality” were used to refer to the “abnormal” minority: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170315-the-invention-of-heterosexuality Revoice: https://www.revoice.org/ Some resources we mentioned—check out: Pieter Valk's organization, EQUIP: https://equipyourcommunity.org/ Kaleidoscope Ministries: https://www.kaleidoscopeusa.org/ Posture Shift: https://postureshift.com/ Eden Invitation: https://www.edeninvitation.com/ __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

If God calls us to seek the common good of our communities—what does that mean in real life? The commons, a shared community place or resource, is a critical idea in this conversation. Even better: it's not just an idea; it's been practiced around the globe in many times and places. David Frank talks with friend and fellow housemate Brendan Johnson about the ways we could start thinking differently—really differently—about our public, private, and shared resources. Our goal is to inspire you to imagine new ways of flourishing and to open the conversation further. Shoot us a message with any comments, questions, or critiques. There's so much around this topic left to discuss! __________ Timestamps (1:21) What is “the commons”? (5:47) Commons vs., say, a public park (14:24) Seeking the common good in common life (18:59) Rights to common air, water vs. privatization (24:50) Who are “the commoners”? (30:22) Example of 3M and the (failure of) water commons (35:53) The tragedy of the commons (39:17) “Beating the bounds” (42:47) Healthcare and the mental commons (45:23) Joy and the desire to contribute (50:15) What it means to be human (53:06) The commons of communion (57:23) What we can do now __________ Links and References Our Guest Today is D. Brendan Johnson: https://linktr.ee/dbrendanjohnson "A Short History of Enclosure in Britain" by Simon Fairlie (The Land, 2009; link to publisher) Small is Beautiful by E.F. Schumacher (1973, link to publisher) Christ and the Common Life by Luke Bretherton (2019, link to publisher) “The Tragedy of the Commons” by Garrett Hardin (Science, 1968; link to JStor) Governing the Commons by Elinor Ostrom (1990, link to publisher) Podcast: "Frontiers of Commoning with David Bollier" https://david-bollier.simplecast.com/ Free, Fair, and Alive by David Bollier and Silke Helfrich https://freefairandalive.org/ Cooperation Jackson in Mississippi https://cooperationjackson.org/ Mondragon Corporation in Spain https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/ __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

We (TJ and David) first connected with philosopher Joel Carini from a few of his articles on a reformed theology of same-sex attraction. In this episode, Joel joined us for a conversation around various Christian contexts, nature and grace, Side B and identity language, and, of course, philosophy. We appreciate Joel's care and thoughtfulness around his work, and we hope (whether you agree with him or not) you'll find his approach worth engaging! — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find our Communion & Shalom episode #3 helpful, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ __________ Timestamps (0:59) Joel's background (05:12) Sidenote: new urbanist community (08:06) Moving toward reformed theology (10:56) Studying philosophy as a follower of Jesus (31:15) What is orthodoxy, and what isn't? (41:01) What is a "natural theologian"? (48:09) How theology/philosophy helps me love God and others (54:26) Why conservative Christians emphasize identity language? (1:00:28) Becoming sympathetic to side B (1:11:18) People's responses in your church circles (1:26:36) Sharing side B with conservative Christians (1:35:38) Advice for intellectuals in the side B conversation __________ Links and References Joel Carini's Substack: https://joelcarini.substack.com/ “Same Sex Attraction and the Misery of Our Condition” https://joelcarini.substack.com/p/same-sex-attraction-and-the-misery — Confused about something they referenced in this podcast? So was Podcast Manager Elena. We can't link to every one of them…so instead here's the references we caught, spelled correctly, for your easier Google searching: John Piper (Bethlehem Baptist), Greg Beale, Karl Barth, Van Till (Westminster presuppositionalism), Carl Trueman, Wayne Grudem and complementarianism and egalitarianism, Bruce Ware, heterodox, Miguel de Unamuno (existentialist novelist), Greg Johnson in Christianity Today magazine, Retreat to Commitment by W. W. Bartley III, subordinationism, Bethel McGrew, Wesley Hill's book Spiritual Friendship __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Ariel is a friend of this podcast and—more importantly—a friend to many humans, both queer and straight. We have seen her intuitive care and fierce kindness shine in her support of queer friends and family. We asked her to share some wisdom with us all! __________ Timestamps (02:23) Growing up in evangelical Christianity with queer friends (11:46) The goodness of diversity in communities (14:59) Why not use the word "ally"? Or "advocate"? (21:20) The church has struggled to keep up with culture...and could it ever be "ahead"? (30:32) What does it mean to be a friend (to...anyone)? (38:55) Advice for Christians struggling with friendships with queer people (42:34) Raising kids around differences that aren't scary __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom __________ Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Paul-Anthony Turner is a gay Christian philosopher and pastor who used to be Side B (holding a traditional Christian sexual ethic of chastity in opposite-sex marriage or a celibate vocation) and is now Side A (affirming same-sex marriage). He takes TJ through his reasoning and philosophy for how he arrives at a Side A position. Preview: He likes Kant a LOT. One of our main goals with Communion & Shalom is to bring people who believe differently than we do, and differently than each other, into conversation on difficult topics like Christian sexuality. Wherever you find yourself on these topics, we hope you'll find this conversation gives you insight into other perspectives. Also, this episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ __________ Timestamps (06:40) Paul Anthony introduces himself (09:02) "I always knew I was gay...” (12:58) When did you become "Side B"? (28:52) What was your process of transitioning from Side B to Side A (35:03) Epistemology, ontology, phenomenology... and other philosophical frameworks (46:47) What is the place of spiritual revelation in your philosophical model? (55:07) "Doesn't the text have some power to resist the interpretations we bring to it?” (59:34) But why are you Side A? (1:04:49) A wager like Pascal's (1:10:27) How does the idea of sin interact with the account you're giving for sexuality? (1:17:56) "I think in some ways that absolute knowledge is like the boogeyman in your account...” (1:18:27) What role does tradition play in your account of same-sex sex within Christianity? (1:32:34) How do you relate to Side B people now that you're Side A? (1:39:18) Interpreting the text and the world we are in: "To what extent do you think we [Side B] are wrong?” __________ Other Notes For those of us who aren't students of either theology or philosophy, a quick-and-dirty reference list…. hermeneutics—different methods of interpretation ontology—“what makes a thing what it is?” epistemology—”how can we know what we know?” teleology—”What is a thing's goal or purpose?” phenomenology—“How does my experience affect my engagement with the world?” Some named-dropped philosophers and theologians, for your spelling convenience: Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Alfred Whitehead, Hans-Georg Gadamer, Martin Heidegger, Jean-Paul Sartre, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche, George Lindbeck monsignor - Wikipedia Books by James K. A. Smith—Desiring the Kingdom, Who's Afraid of Postmodernism?, and Who's Afraid of Relativism? Paul Anthony's friends Ed Oxford and Kathy Baldock are writing a book called Forging A Sacred Weapon __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Within Christian circles on the faith and sexuality, we (especially Side B people) spend a lot of time talking about different “sides” and where we stand. Some people think we shouldn't even talk about sides at all. While there may be merit to some of their objections, we still think it's a valuable way of framing things. This episode explains why we keep using “Side A” and “Side B”. We might give you some new ideas, might change your mind… or it might just give you more things to argue about with us. We welcome all of those! Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, and Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation (welcome!), you can totally join us for an insider conversation…but first you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠⁠ __________ Timestamps (00:57) Why did this topic come up? (04:40) What are the strengths of using "sides" language or framework? (09:33) Critiques of using "sides" language or frameworks (25:03) Critiques we find wisdom in (27:08) Alternatives: What other language besides "sides" could we use? (35:59) Is "sides" language sufficient for our moment? __________ Links and References Below are some names mentioned in this episode, which may help make this conversation easier to follow and look up. Saint Aelred - Wikipedia We mention Rosaria Butterfield on this episode, who represents “Side Y”. Matthew Vines represents a traditional “Side A” perspective. Tyler Sit was a guest on this podcast - Episode 13 Giacomo San Filippo was a guest on this podcast - Episode 17 __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… → Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact → Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom → Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Ethnicity, race, nationalism… Just bringing up those words can raise the temperature of the room. These topics intersect and affect our daily lives in ways that are so important—how do we, as Christians, engage these topics well? We share some initial thoughts on ethnicity and on why it can be important to focus on it, or de-emphasize it, in our daily lives. We welcome your input and sharpening of these ideas, as always. Thanks for listening! __________ Timestamps (04:33) Defining “ethnicity” (08:28) David's ethnic background, plus a quick definition of "Mennonite” (21:36) Finding your roots, and Disney's Moana (28:32) TJ's ethnic background (32:39) Tensions in community, family, and what roots you grow (37:57) Counter-argument: “Ethnic tribalism is a threat to peaceful universalism” (50:51) Wrapping up __________ Links and References “The Radical Anti-Racism of Christopher Hitchens” https://fairforall.substack.com/p/hitchens-antiracism __________ If you like this podcast, please consider… → Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact → Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom → Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

We are so excited to welcome Mwendia Steve Kiengu to the podcast as we begin highlighting perspectives from Africa! Mwendia is a seminary student in Kenya who's grown up with same-sex attraction. He talks with TJ about the African cultural dynamics they've both experienced around same-sex attraction—how people talk about it, advice they give, and the challenges that Christians with same-sex attractions face. We value Mwendia's perspective on sexuality, both for Africans engaging in the conversation and for global listeners expanding their knowledge of the world. — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand, which is most often a western framing. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠⁠ __________ Timestamps (0:24) TJ: On highlighting African voices (04:09) Introducing Mwendia (16:02) Same-sex sexual relations (and insult words) among Kenyan young people (22:54) Are there gay Kenyan celebrities? (25:36) Most closeted Kenyans stay there (under pressure to marry, have kids) (32:21) African values on marriage + kids (high), celibacy (low) (40:41) Openness to celibate partnerships, LGBT language? in Kenya (50:02) "This is a western ideology” (58:44) Kenyan Christians who affirm same-sex sex? (1:00:00) Finding the boldness to build community (1:05:36) What LGBT language is used among Kenyan Christians? Links and References Mwendia's blog: https://thequestionofsexuality.home.blog/Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill (2010) Link to publisher Spiritual Friendship blog: https://spiritualfriendship.org/ Revoice conference: https://www.revoice.org/Still Time to Care by Greg Johnson (2021) Link to publisher — Below are some resources or terms mentioned in this episode, which may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course). Binyavanga Wainaina was a famous Kenyan writer who was open about his homosexuality. Wiki Kenyan fashion designer and LGBTQ activitist Chiloba Edwin was recently murdered. Wiki The story of Leah's and Rachel's use of their maids as surrogate mothers/concubines to build their families is found in Genesis 29:31 through 30:22. If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

We (David and TJ) are Side B, and we care about engaging people across differences. Last year we interviewed three Side A folks from different perspectives: #12 - JP's Story: Moving Away from Side B#13 - Ordained, Gay, and Seeking Liberation: A Chat with Rev. Tyler Sit#17 - Giacomo Sanfilippo on the Asceticism of Same-Sex Love In January, we got the chance to sit down together and reflect on those three interviews. We anticipate continued conversations with Side A friends, and we don't want this to be the end of the discussion—please join us as we continue it! __ Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ __________ Timestamps (0:32) Context: What did we learn, and what similarities and differences do we see? (11:38) JP: on singleness in Side X (14:41) JP: on why he left Side B (21:22) JP: on celibate partnerships (24:49) Tyler Sit: on purity culture, empire, and liberation (37:17) Tyler Sit: on which cross we should bear (43:22) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on human and divine eros (47:43) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on moralism vs asceticism (1:00:19) David and TJ: final thoughts (for now) Links and References“Bill Nye Unweaves the Rainbow—and Undersells Science” by Leah Libresco Sargeant (May 2017) https://leahlibresco.com/bill-nye-unweaves-the-rainbow-and-undersells-science/ “Designing Woman“ by Leah Libresco Sargeant (Sept. 2022) https://comment.org/designing-woman/ __ Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview: Our Communion & Shalom episode #3 talks through the 4 main “sides.” #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary. https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides If you like this podcast, please consider… →Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact →Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom →Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom — Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com) Podcast Manager: Elena

Contrary to (some) opinions, those of us who consider ourselves “Side B” on Christian sexuality don't agree on everything, nor is there a shared “declaration of theology” document that we can all agree on. What ideas unite and divide the Side B community? TJ and David identify 6 areas of unity and 8 areas of difference, within the Side B community. Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you're new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ And, if it helps clarify…when we say someone “is Side B”, we're referring to those of us who are ourselves queer or same-sex attracted (which is different than the larger group, queer or straight, who align with Side B's general theology and posture). __________ Timestamps (00:23) Why this episode is needed Shared Unity in Side B: (05:00) 1. Historic Christian sexual ethic (05:39) 2. The church should uphold celibate vocation (06:06) 3. Willingness to see the goods of being queer (08:30) 4. Same-sex attraction isn't morally culpable as a sinful action (we differ on what is “indwelling sin”) (10:19) 5. Using wisdom, not prescribed language, for identity terms (10:56) 6. Opposition to “conversion therapy” Differences within Side B (11:46): (13:37) 1. Theological, denominational traditions (15:49) 2. Backgrounds, countries, cultures, beliefs, practices (17:10) 3. How we relate to LGBT/queer subculture(s) (23:32) 4. How we theologically evaluate Side A (or Y, X) beliefs (24:30) Where we started affects our current theological stance (25:36) The value we place on certain virtues (esp. TRUTH) affects our current theological stance (27:41) How big is the gap is between Side A and B? (45:03) 5. How we relate to gender norms (47:41) 6. How Christians should influence polity, laws, esp. on gay marriage (50:06) 7. Perspectives on having celibate partnerships (51:43) 8. Diversity in communities (it's a human problem) (52:22) In conclusion, why does this matter? __________ Links and References Previous Communion & Shalom podcast episodes we referred to: #11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides (July 13, 2022) BONUS: A Virtual Tour of TJ's Experience at Pride 2022 (Sept 7, 2022) Revoice Conference: https://revoice.us/ One example of Rosaria Butterfield's critique of Side B: https://podcast.choosetruthovertribe.com/episodes/rosaria-butterfield-christian-lesbian __________ Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com. Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalom If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom

Tate grew up in small-town, Bible-belt Texas before attending “the absolute worst of the worst” of the “too liberal or too secular" universities. We (David and TJ) talk with Tate about his story of coming out, growing in faith, and being a bridge between different communities. We appreciated Tate's reflection on how the words we use to describe sexuality (such as gay, same-sex attracted, homosexual, etc.), can mean different things to different communities. Note: This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised. __________ Timestamps 0:55 - Tate's background 7:35 - The language of being gay, coming out 16:55 - Community perceptions of homosexuality in language and activity 25:10 - College: taking faith seriously, being gay at a “liberal” university 33:00 - Conversations on sexuality with campus ministers vs. Gen Z classmates 38:45 - Speaking and consulting on Christianity and same-sex sexuality 48:35 - “My understanding of sin changed when I left home” 50:45 - How does/should the Christian church relate to queer people? 55:15 - How do you think about your attractions, your sexuality? 1:00:00 - Christian views on homosexuality: what categories did/do you use? 1:05:00 - Why are you not “Side A” (affirming of same-sex marriage/sexual relationships)? 1:07:10 - How can queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT people fit in the church? What are the positive gifts or strengths of being queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT? __________ Links and References in This Episode Tate's blog: tate.fyi Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality (2010) by Wesley Hill Two Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016)—contributors: William Loader, Megan K. DeFranza, Wesley Hill, Stephen R. Holmes; edited by Preston Sprinkle “Being gay is like a drop of ink in a glass of water”—referenced in a Spiritual Friendship blog post by Wesley Hill: https://spiritualfriendship.org/2016/03/10/will-i-be-gay-in-the-resurrection/ __________ Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or by emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com. Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalom If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom

True love means… what?? There are many answers to that question, and in this episode, we're just talking about some of them. In part 3 of our conversation with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, we reflect on some of the implications of the “pure relationship”—and how combining or removing certain elements of the historic marriage relationship can have big impacts. How should we think about desire, romantic attraction, and the marriage relationship today? And how does this impact how we think about love and kinship in other forms? If you have more answers to those questions, get in touch! This episode is part 3 of 3. __________ Timestamps 4:15 - Marriage as an image of God's love: is it more agape or eros? 17:10 - What elements makes it marriage? economic factors, children, romantic attraction, sex? 22:25 - Jesus on divorce, adultery: What's the underlying logic? 25:35 - Where do we go from here? Directing desire and romantic attraction 43:20 - What is the constructive Christian response to the current “pure relationship” model? 49:36 - Kathryn's book recommendation: Kristin Lavransdatter __________ Links and References Kathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.net Anthony Giddens on the “pure relationship” Sermons on eros by Robert Cunningham at the Good of the Bluegrass Conference 2022 (listen at the conference website; listen to a shorter summary in another podcast from Cunningham at Every Square Inch) The Symposium by Plato (wiki) The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki) The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d'Arthur (wiki) Eros and Agape by Anders Nygren Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset __________ Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com. Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalom If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom

But not that kind of western romance… Pop quiz: Which of the following reasons is a good reason to get married to someone? Because your family or social circle wants you to Because you sexually desire that person (or are already sexually involved) Because you want children (or have them already) Because you need financial stability Because you're “in love” with that person Because you're “in love” with someone else Some of these answers might seem ridiculous, but a hundred or a thousand years ago, people concluded very different things about marriage and romance, depending on the age they live in. We in the West can bundle together a lot of expectations for romantic partners—they should be your best friend, have romantic attraction, maybe build a family together, share finances, support you emotionally, and on and on. Sometimes we separate out just one or two items—attraction, best-friendship—and focus on that alone. But it hasn't always been this way. In the scale of human history, our current assumptions about romance and marriage are actually quite young. In part 2 of this series, we continue our conversation with friend and scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, to look through the lens of Western literature at changing perspectives on romance, (Christian) marriage, love, and intimacy through the ages. This episode is part 2 of 3. For anyone who has had to work through their expectations for romantic relationships (or other people's expectations for your relationships!), this episode is for you. __________ Timestamps 1:45 - The biology of attraction 8:05 - The ancient world: Marriage as economic arrangement 10:35 - The early Christian church: equality in adultery 12:15 - Courtly love and longing in the 11th century 20:05 - Example: King Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere 23:30 - Arranged marriages and consent in the Christian church 30:05- Example: Dante and Beatrice 39:30 - Contemporary Christian emphasis on marriage—does it deserve it? 45:05 - Companionate marriage: Edmund Spenser's poetry 49:00 - Holiness as celibacy (Catholics) or married life (Protestants) 53:45 - Song of Songs in the church's imagination 58:05 - The development of the “pure relationship” __________ Links and References Kathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.net The Allegory of Love by C.S. Lewis The Symposium by Plato (wiki) The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki) The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d'Arthur (wiki) Edmund Spenser, poet (wiki) Anthony Giddens on the “pure relationship” __________ Please share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com. Find us on Instagram: @communionandshalom If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom