This podcast puts you in touch with great artists who make great work. What they do helps us live richer and deeper lives.
Listener Question: How do I stay engaged with a broken or compromised system?Coaching Insight: The answer depends on context—but it starts with deciding if you want to engageHero's Journey Framework: Crisis, the low point, perspective, and the invitation to re-enterTemptation of Distance: Why staying detached can feel safe but keeps us isolatedThe Cost of Return: Re-engaging means risking hurt again—but also invites growthCycle of Life: We never “arrive”—we grow through constant cycles of disappointment and resolveThe Low Show: A creative collaboration with Scott Erickson rooted in this rhythm Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Introduction: The evolution of At Sea into a listener-driven Q&A formatPublic vs. Private Religion: Addressing a critique on public fasting and faith practicesPerfectionism in Faith: How the demand for purity can lead to isolationLessons from Leadership: Reflections on pastoral life and the struggles of maintaining a communityWhy Public Faith Matters: Creating shared spaces for growth, support, and imperfectionThe Role of Imperfection: How embracing our limitations opens the door for community and transformationClosing Thoughts: Inviting people to share in faith practices without the pressure of perfection Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Introduction: The shift in the podcast's format and answering listener questionsADHD & Spirituality: Exploring how neurodivergence intersects with faith and spiritual formationReframing ADHD: Why ADHD isn't a disorder but a different way of interacting with the worldHyperactivity & Masculinity: How society misinterprets hyperactivity, especially in menAttention Deficit Myth: ADHD isn't a lack of attention—it's the challenge of directing itInstitutional Challenges: Why modern systems don't always support neurodivergent peopleResources for Further Learning: Books Stolen Focus (Johann Hari) and Driven to DistractionFinal Thoughts: The need to rethink how we define ADHD and its role in a flourishing life Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Introduction: Overview of podcast shift to directly answering listener questionsIs All Art Spiritual? Understanding art as a tool for connectionArt, Spirituality, and Religion: The connection between creating, spirituality, and divine connectionSeth Godin's Definition of Art: Art as a way to foster connection between peopleSpirituality: Spirituality as recognizing the divine in all aspects of lifeReligion: The difference between bad religion (selling access to the divine) and good religion (recognizing existing divine connection)Hope: The decision to hope, not based on external circumstances but on the work we continue to doChoosing Hope: Hope as a practice of engaging with the world and staying connected to meaningful workClosing: Call to support the podcast via Patreon Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Introduction: The widespread struggle with overwhelmWhy We Feel Overwhelmed: Taking in too much informationEmotional Impact: The humbling and frustrating nature of feeling overwhelmedPersonal Stories: Examples of individuals struggling with prioritizationPractical Advice: How to focus on what's within your controlBuilding Patterns of Care: Creating sustainable habits to combat overwhelmEncouragement: Why your unique contribution to the world mattersClosing Thoughts: Developing a life where overwhelm doesn't derail progress
Podcast Show Notes:Introduction: Justin McRoberts introduces the episode, its themes, and his approach to answering listener questions.Question 1: How to create spiritual practices after leaving a hurtful church environment:Importance of spiritual direction and coaching.Rebuilding trust in community and relinquishing control in spiritual growth.The role of forgiveness in healing and moving forward.Question 2: Maintaining healthy boundaries in nonprofit and religious work:Reframing the meaning of work as an internal and relational experience.Practical tips for setting boundaries and balancing expectations.Question 3: Why evangelicals are converting to Catholicism:Exploring the desire for deeper, less experience-driven spiritual practices.The maturation process in faith and the appeal of liturgical traditions.Closing: Justin invites listeners to submit future questions and reflects on the ongoing value of this conversational format. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Show Notes:Introduction to the episode and the season's Q&A formatBackground on Justin's previous online engagement in political conversationsEmotional and financial costs of discussing divisive topics on social mediaReflection on the neutrality (or lack thereof) of social media platformsReference to Johann Hari's book Stolen Focus and its insights on attentionThe impact of online platforms on our ability to empathize and listenJustin's journey with the decision to step back from digital political discussionsEncouragement to shift political conversations to small, in-person settingsJustin's view on the limitations of online platforms for fostering meaningful discourseFinal thoughts on reclaiming human-centered dialogue in an increasingly digital world Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Show Notes:0:02 – Introduction to the Jubilee conversation series1:21 – Chaz Smith's journey from the East Coast to Los Angeles3:43 – Discovering a love for storytelling and film5:56 – Transitioning from social media comedy to a Bible-based animated web series7:12 – Navigating comparison on social media platforms9:30 – The challenge of content creation vs. finding rest and balance13:58 – Wrestling with calling and creative freedom as a Christian15:11 – Misconceptions about talents, gifts, and biblical interpretation21:07 – The importance of rest and establishing healthy rhythms23:30 – Avoiding burnout and learning to say yes to wholeness25:55 – Letting go of unfinished work and embracing grace26:26 – Closing thoughts on redefining success and finding joy in the process Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Show Notes:00:02 – Introduction to the episode by Justin McRoberts01:24 – Claude discusses his background in literature and how he uses it to engage faith communities04:50 – The balance between writing for oneself and writing for an audience06:45 – Influence of early conversations and figures in Claude's life on his perspective of black history10:00 – The importance of African American literature and Toni Morrison's Beloved14:20 – The power of literature to create empathy and broaden perspectives19:30 – Why black stories matter beyond the merit system23:45 – The concept of hope in black narratives and the role of progress27:00 – Endurance versus healing: A reflection on Christian hope30:00 – How Paul's endurance in ministry serves as an example of hope for believers32:00 – Books Claude is currently reading: Silence by Shusaku Endo and Underworld by Don DeLillo33:00 – Closing thoughts and reflections on the transformative power of literature and faith Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Show Notes:[00:02] Introduction by Justin McRoberts – The importance of the Jubilee Conference and its connection to faith, art, and wisdom.[02:29] Elissa Weichbrodt's background in art and faith – Growing up with a passion for art and balancing that with her Christian faith.[03:45] Discovering theology that embraces both art and faith – Introduction to Calvin Seerveld and Hearts and Minds.[04:49] Encountering discomfort in contemporary art – The role of art in challenging us and making us confront our own blind spots.[06:00] The importance of slowing down in art and life – How art teaches us patience and attentiveness in all areas.[10:43] The risk and beauty of interpretation – Why it's essential to allow room for personal interpretation of art and how it exposes our inner selves.[13:54] What makes art “good”? – A discussion on what defines “good” art and how it can evoke deep responses.[19:57] Engaging with complex cultural narratives through art – How Elissa navigates the intersection of art, culture, and spirituality.[21:44] Final thoughts – Encouraging deeper engagement with art as a practice that builds relationships with oneself, others, and God. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Episode Notes:Introduction by Justin McRoberts:Overview of the podcast's shift towards deeper, direct conversations with key voices from the Jubilee Conference.The value of gaining wisdom and perspective from experienced speakers and leaders.Balancing Ministry and Personal Life:Discussion of being an introverted leader while balancing public speaking, pastoral responsibilities, and personal time.Navigating 25+ years of pastoral ministry and the reevaluation of what ministry should look like beyond the upfront work.Defining Home and Navigating Cultural Identity:Speaker shares his experience growing up in various places, moving often, and the sense of finding "home" in New York City.Reflects on the diversity of the city and raising children in an urban environment, with discussions on how cultural background shapes experiences.Justice and Reconciliation:The distinction between different types of justice—retributive and righteousness (relational).The complexity of justice beyond legalities, emphasizing Shalom (peace) and interconnected relationships.The challenge of genuine reconciliation, not just forgiveness, and the need for restorative practices that involve truth-telling, power-sharing, and repair.Importance of Cities in the Context of Faith:Exploration of why cities play a unique and crucial role in the Christian mission.The influence of global migration and how cities foster diversity and connection, presenting opportunities for spiritual renewal.Reflection on how city-based ministry influences global movements and can serve as a model for smaller communities.Challenges and Opportunities for the Western Church:The post-Christian context of the West and how it differs from pre-Christian societies.The idea that resources and insights needed for the American church may come from learning from the global church and marginalized communities.Closing Reflections:Encouragement to see the kingdom of God through the margins and to recognize the value in learning from diverse perspectives. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Episode Notes:Introduction:Justin reflects on the shift in the podcast's format, now focusing on direct listener questions related to life, faith, creativity, and leadership.Sabbath-Keeping:Question: How do you build a Sabbath day?Justin shares his personal history of practicing Sabbath, noting that it's a flexible and evolving practice rather than a rigid set of tasks.He emphasizes the importance of regularly setting aside time for rest and reflection, allowing the Sabbath to become an opportunity to connect with God and assess one's soul.He encourages listeners to work with a coach or spiritual director to reflect on what worked and didn't during their Sabbath practice.Deconstruction Misuse:Question: Thoughts on deconstruction and its current cultural use?Justin critiques the modern misuse of the word "deconstruction," explaining its philosophical roots in Jacques Derrida's work.He challenges the idea that deconstruction is simply changing one's mind or evolving beliefs, arguing instead that it represents a deeper shift in worldview where meaning is questioned.Justin also warns against disparaging one's past self or experiences during personal growth, calling for more grace in navigating maturity.He closes by explaining that true deconstruction is a posture and a way of interpreting the world, not a phase to be completed.Closing Remarks:Justin encourages listeners to submit more questions via Instagram and teases future faith, creativity, and leadership topics.He thanks his Patreon supporters and invites others to join the team. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
In this episode of the At Sea Podcast, host Justin McRoberts discusses the podcast's shift towards direct conversations. He shares insights on various topics, including self-care as a parent, the distinction between loneliness and solitude, and leadership lessons as his faith has evolved. Justin answers questions from his Instagram followers on managing grief and finding stillness as a parent, moving from loneliness to solitude, and his biggest leadership lessons. 00:00 Introduction to the At Sea Podcast 00:59 Transition to Direct Conversations 01:57 Addressing Listener Questions 02:04 Finding Stillness and Moving Through Grief 02:46 The Balance Narrative in Parenting 05:40 Redefining Stillness and Self-Care 08:07 From Loneliness to Solitude 13:14 Leadership Lessons and Faith Evolution 16:27 Closing Remarks and Support Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Episode Notes:Introduction:Justin McRoberts continues the Q&A format, focusing on questions that matter most to his listeners.Discussion on why the podcast shifted from interviews to a more direct engagement with the audience.Key Topics Covered:From Busyness to Fulfillment:The importance of distinguishing between a busy schedule and a fulfilling one.How to prioritize activities that resonate with your soul and bring genuine satisfaction.Tips on using downtime to reassess and reorganize your schedule for greater fulfillment.Navigating Change and Spiritual Growth:How to connect with God when traditional practices and tools no longer resonate.The cultural shift in how we experience and express spirituality, mainly through music.The idea is that outgrowing old practices is a sign of spiritual maturity and growth.The Importance of Grieving Deeply:Grief is necessary for letting go of the past and making space for the future.How to embrace grief fully to prevent it from lingering and hindering personal growth.The connection between grief and the ability to experience joy and hope in new seasons.When to Persevere and When to Let Go:How to discern whether to continue or end a project, relationship, or situation.The role of joy as a metric for making these decisions.Encouragement to seek coaching or therapy when facing these challenging decisions.Closing Remarks:Justin shares updates on upcoming book releases, including his collaboration with Scott Erickson and his new collection of poems and prayers, "In Rest."Encourages listeners to continue submitting questions and engaging with the podcast.This episode is rich with practical advice and profound reflections on how to live a more intentional and spiritually grounded life, making it a must-listen for anyone navigating the complexities of modern life. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Join host Justin McRoberts on this unique episode of the At Sea Podcast, where he engages directly with viewers' questions. Learn about the importance of community in religious practice, authentically sharing one's faith, and discerning when to persevere or move on from a project or relationship. Tune in for deep reflections on belonging, leadership, and living a joyous life.00:00 Introduction to the At Sea Podcast01:03 New Podcast Format: Q&A Sessions01:58 Question 1: The Importance of Church Community07:57 Question 2: Tips on Sharing Your Faith11:38 Question 3: When to Persevere or Let Go18:51 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
In this episode of the At Sea Podcast, host Justin McRoberts turns the focus inward, addressing audience questions in a traditional Q&A format. He discusses finding a new connection with God post-untangling, tips for achieving deep work amid distractions, recognizing when it's time for a new chapter in life, and balancing arguments with interpersonal relationships. Justin provides personal insights and practical advice on spirituality, productivity, change, and valuing relationships over winning debates. Tune in for a deep and thoughtful conversation aimed at enriching your personal and spiritual journey. 00:00 Welcome to the NC Podcast 00:22 Transition to Q&A Format 01:29 Finding Connection with God After Untangling 04:42 Getting Deep Work Done Amidst Distractions 07:45 Knowing When It's Time for a New Chapter 10:48 Balancing Arguments and Relationships 15:09 Closing Remarks and Invitation for Questions Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
In this episode, Justin comes to you from the beautiful Young Life Woodleaf property, sharing his thoughts and insights amidst the serene setting of nature. This week, Justin dives deep into listener questions, offering profound advice on discernment, balancing suffering with hope, and the cultural movement of deconstruction.Key Topics Covered:
In this engaging episode, host Justin McRoberts introduces a fresh format where he directly answers listener questions from his popular Instagram Q&A sessions. Moving away from traditional interviews, Justin dives deep into the topics that matter most to his audience, providing insightful, practical advice.Key Highlights:
Join Justin McRoberts for a fresh and engaging chapter of the At Sea Podcast! After many years of evolving and connecting with our amazing listeners, we're excited to bring you a season focused on your questions, stories, and journey.This season, we'll dive into what truly matters to you, offering insightful conversations on art, religion, leadership, and more.
Dive into this engaging episode of the At Sea Podcast with Justin McRoberts and Dan Portnoy as they explore the radical concept of Sabbath as a rebellion against the systems that drain us and discover how embracing rest can revolutionize our personal and professional lives. Tune in for a compelling discussion on navigating resistance and finding joy in authenticity. Don't miss out—press play for a journey into reclaiming your time and energy! Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
In this episode, Justin McRoberts and Dan Portnoy discuss Chapter 12 of the book 'Sacred Strides' titled 'I'm Not Running to Win.' They explore the importance of recognizing the dangers of exhaustion in ministry and the need for self-care. They highlight the impact of urgency and importance on mental health and the importance of prioritizing health and wellbeing. The conversation concludes with a prayer emphasizing the need to never sacrifice one's health on the altar of productivity.TakeawaysRecognize the dangers of exhaustion in ministry and the impact it can have on mental health.Prioritize self-care and wellbeing to be able to offer the best of yourself in important work.Do not let urgency and importance dictate your life's patterns; practice saying no and setting boundaries.Remember that important work should not be antithetical to being healthy; take care of yourself and trust that the rest is in God's hands.Chapters00:0 0 Introduction02:46 Chapter 12: I'm Not Running to Win06:18 The Urgency of Important Work09:10 Recognizing the Importance of Self-Care13:26 The Dangers of Exhaustion in Ministry23:32 The Impact of Exhaustion on Mental Health27:45 The Choice Between Important Work and Soul31:17 Prayer: May I Never Sacrifice My Health32:43 Conclusion Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
In this episode, Justin McRoberts and Dan Portnoy discuss Chapter 11 of the book 'Sacred Strides.' They explore the importance of leading with love and true compassion in advocacy work. Justin shares a personal story of his experience as an MC at a music festival and how he initially struggled to connect with the audience. He reflects on the need to meet people where they are and tap into their desires and experiences. The conversation also touches on the pitfalls of manipulative advocacy and the importance of building genuine connections with others. Takeaways Leading with love and true compassion is essential in advocacy work. Meeting people where they are and tapping into their desires and experiences is more effective than trying to manipulate them into action. Avoid dehumanizing others and focus on building genuine connections. Advocacy should be rooted in empathy and a desire for the wholeness of individuals. Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:36 Chapter 11: Being a Front Runner or True Compassion and Learning to Lead with Love 08:41 Realizing the Importance of Empathy in Advocacy 11:03 The Transfiguration and the Invitation to Love 23:35 Changing the Way of Advocacy 25:56 Conclusion Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
In this episode, Justin and Dan discuss Chapter 10 of the book 'Sacred Strides' titled 'Quitting the Race for Good' or 'Disconnect and Repair'. They start by talking about technology and its metaphorical significance. Justin shares his experiences with tech issues and the need for intentional disconnection. He explains the analogy of Bluetooth connections and the importance of forgetting certain connections to reconnect in a healthier way. Justin also discusses his journey of disconnecting from transactional relationships and finding true connections that remind him of his belovedness.TakeawaysTechnology can serve as a metaphor for disconnection and repair in our lives.Regular disconnection is necessary to maintain healthy connections and avoid burnout.Forging new connections with people who don't need anything from us is essential for our well-being.Recognizing our belovedness and surrounding ourselves with sources of love and care is crucial for a fulfilling life.Chapters00:00 Introduction and Scheduling00:30 Root Canal and West Wing03:04 Technology as a Metaphor06:15 Disconnecting and Repairing11:12 Bluetooth and Connections13:01 Forgetting Connections15:20 Deep Dive into the Soul22:56 Disconnecting and Forgetting28:01 Recognizing Belovedness29:43 Conclusion Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Dan and I have been walking through my most recent book, Sacred Strides. We're going chapter by chapter providing some insights into the stories and some add-ons.You know, kind of not quite behind the scenes of the making of it per se, but more like, what are the themes and why are they important? And do I still believe the things I said when I published this book. This week we go through Chapter 9. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Today, we're embarking on a unique exploration not just of what's written, but of the stories and insights that lie beneath the surface of each chapter. Joining me on this adventure is none other than Dan Portnoy, a dear friend, and producer.Dan's perspective on my work is truly one-of-a-kind. He's been by my side through the highs and lows, understanding not just the essence of my writing, but the passion and purpose that drive it. Today, we're not just revisiting the chapters of 'Sacred Strides,' but we're also delving into the layers underneath—the thoughts, the motivations, and the untold stories that have shaped this book.And let me tell you, having Dan here isn't just about having a fan in the room; it's about sharing this space with someone who genuinely cares about the work, appreciates the craft of writing, and, most importantly, isn't afraid to dive deep into the discussion, challenging and enriching our journey through 'Sacred Strides.'So, whether you've been a part of our story from the beginning or are just joining us, we're thrilled to have you with us. Let's peel back the layers together, uncovering the heart and soul behind 'Sacred Strides.' Check it out. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
We are walking through the book Sacred Strides. Dan is asking questions, and we're re-narrating this book because it's cool. And I'd like to get it in your life somehow, shape, or form. So Dan has known me for a very long time; we've been partners for, goodness gracious, like a couple of decades, and we've done many different works together. And so he has a unique take on my work and what I'm doing with it. And it's been fun to walk through these chapters, have Dan point stuff out, and show me where the work could have made this a better project. - What a terrible podcast! I'm kidding. Join us as we go over the lessons and stories of Chapter 7. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
This week we take a look at Chapter 6 of Sacred Strides. There's a turn in this chapter and it has to do with value. I get a glimmer of what it is to work hard on something and to do that with friends, true friends. It's been a minute as the holidays and all kinds of stuff happened. I turned 50 this month and in this episode, we explored a bunch - Check it out. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Welcome to the odd, like a spiral, like a downward spiral of information and conversation that has become this podcast because, in essence, I am the host, and I am hosting Dan Portnoy, who is playing host to me. Let's start calling a media company, Meta. There are lots of triggers going off right now. Some of them are justified, but not all of them. Today, Dan and I walk through the book Sacred Strides, digging into the story and talking about the themes, giving you an opportunity if you liked book, which I think you did, if I'm honest. And give you an opportunity to dig a little bit deeper and hear more about it. And if you have not come across the book or giving it a shot, giving you all kinds of reasons to to do it. This is a chapter chapter five. That is entitled, Pacing Myself or Coffee, College, and knowing my limits. Dan, welcome back to the show. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
We are marching back through the book Sacred Strides, looking at different chapters, chapter by chapter. We're on Chapter Four, digging into elements of the book that will just kind of follow the arrows that the book provides. Because when I write, and I wrote this book, I never really intended for a book to be a whole thing. I intend for a book to point to other stuff and you are in the culture around you. So we're following those arrows and having the conversations around him. So welcome. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Another episode with producer, Dan Portnoy, marching through the book Sacred Strides. We're going to dive into Chapter 3 today - Staying In My Lane. This is a chapter about limitations - something we love to talk about. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
We are doing a series in and by which we're digging back into and through the book Sacred Strides - chapter by chapter talking about the dominant themes in the book or extras on top of the book what you know what it looks like to apply some of the things that I get to in the book. Dan, who's been a friend for a long time and has produced this podcast from its beginning, has a really unique perspective on my work and on me as a worker. And so it's fun to talk about my stuff and have Dan poke around a little bit at, "Hey, what's behind this or underneath this? What's after this?" And so we've enjoyed doing this podcast series up to this point and we expect to continue to, and we think you are as well, judging by the numbers, the metrics. So this is chapter two of the book Sacred Strides, and will you please welcome Dan Portnoy to the microphone? Let's dig in.Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Dan and I are doing a series of podcasts focused on my book. Reintroducing folks to the book Sacred Strides. We began last week with an overview of the book before it got into the introduction. And like why I wrote the book and some surrounding themes. This week, we will dive into Chapter One and talk about it. Dan is going to draw some stuff out. One of the things that's great about Dan and my partnership with Dan is that Dan has a unique perspective on the work I'm doing. Working more collaboratively with people is an enjoyable part of being an artist. So, welcome to this episode of The @Sea Podcast and interview with me, conducted by producer Dan Portnoy, centered on the book Sacred Strides. Here We Go. Summary The book "Sacred Strides" with Justin McRoberts and Dan Portnoy. 0:07 Balance and prioritization in life and work. 1:15 Work-life balance and prioritizing projects. 5:43 Work-life balance and self-care. 9:39 Creativity, passion projects, and work-life balance. 14:24 Creativity, identity, and disillusionment. 19:38 Balancing work and family life as a creative professional. 24:09 Vulnerability and parenting with a focus on emotional connection. 30:23 Observing the Sabbath in modern times. 33:32 Scheduling and organization strategies. 42:04 Creative coaching and planning. 45:09 Creativity, work ethic, and entrepreneurship. 48:42 Identity and relationship with God. 53:12 Belovedness and rest for a deeper understanding of oneself. 57:08Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Welcome specifically to this new series. It's going to be a deeper dive into the book Sacred Strides, which I released earlier in the year. And I get to spend some time talking with my friend Dan Portnoy, who is also the producer of this show. So if you've been around the @Sea podcast for any amount of time you have benefited from and enjoy Dan Portnoy his work, I deeply value him as a friend and really value him also as a work partner. So what's gonna happen is instead of me just talking about the book, or trying to interview myself in some sort of like, like comedic Monty Python style, although that was, that was an that was an idea entertained. Dan's gonna ask me some questions beginning with this first episode, talking about some of the history leading up to the release of the book, why it was important and what I was hoping to do with it. Links For Justin:Coaching with JustinOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Several years ago, six-ish, I think I don't really remember. Years ago, I started making myself available to artists, to ministers, to entrepreneurs, folks who had worked in fields that I had worked in, and I started doing so for free. And I wasn't calling it coaching. At the time, I was just making actual meetings to answer questions, and they were questions that had been coming up. And if you've been in an industry for long enough, this happens to you, as folks start asking you, Hey, how did you get there? Or what did you do about this? Or hate if x happens? Do you have a solution for scenario questions begging for some sort of wisdom from someone who's further down the line? So it's a little bit natural. And it was at the time, it felt like a very natural outpouring of me being in music and art and in religious practice. for a really long time, folks started asking questions. I started making it a serious thing by setting meetings, now called coaching. At the same time, a number of those same folks were asking a lot of questions about religious practice. And it wasn't just a matter of, "How do I build a church?" It was a matter of these things I used to do in my life that had me feeling connected to myself, to God, and to the people around me. These religious practices don't work the way they used to, or I don't feel as connected to those kinds of things, spiritual dilemmas, not always even dilemmas or crises, just hangups, and stalls the same way that folks who get stalled or hung up in art practices, folks are getting stalled and hung up in religious practices. And again, all that makes just some basic sense. If you've been around long enough, you end up having these conversations. Nowadays, as I look back over the course of the last, maybe a decade or so, there's a bit of a trend, I'm noticing, and I think it's associated with or at least it is pointed to by the rise of coaches and spiritual directors. So, I function as a coach. And as a spiritual director. It's actually most of what I do with my time now is that I'm hired to provide coaching and spiritual direction. And I don't think it's just because I've been around and I have something to bring to the table. I think there's something happening. Culturally, institutionally, societally, maybe there's some sort of spiritual movement. I don't like to dig into those terms all that often. But there's something more going on than just that. I have been around long enough, and I'm taking on more and more of these clients. I think there's something in the water. I think there's something in the culture. In fact, I think it's the very same thing that propelled me and the small team of folks that I work with to launch this podcast; it is the desire to navigate wisely and well. Waters we just aren't sure of and don't feel confident in. Now, some of those waters are institutional and cultural, some of those waters are very personal, they're interpersonal, they're actually deeply, individually personal. And as I read the lay of the land, in all of those spaces, there is an increasing number of people, or so it seems, who simply don't feel equipped, in and of themselves, much less in relationship to the institutional, cultural spaces, they're used to trusting, they don't feel equipped or prepared to navigate. What comes next. The mistrust of the tools we were using internally, institutionally, and culturally? Well, I think you are as familiar as I am with that mistrust, as it was projected in all kinds of critical criticisms and critiques, and most of them, or at least a lot of them were, were spot on and really helpful, that there was a critique of, of institutional religion, a critique of higher education, there was a critique of even mental health practices, there was a critique of interpersonal and individual religious practice, there was a critique of the economy, there's a critique of politics, everything it seemed, was on the table for critique everything it seemed, was being questioned, is this viable? Does this do what we want and need it to do for us? Now, one of my favorite pieces of cultural criticism and cultural wisdom comes from Andy Crouch, who says, and I love this, that the only cure for bad culture or for lesser culture is to make a better culture. And I think that's where the real fear comes in about tomorrow. Is it because what if the question isn't a matter of what comes next? And that we sit and wait for something to be revealed? What if the moment is something different and that in this moment, as we've grown disillusioned with the way our institutions and practices interpersonally, culturally, and otherwise have worked? What if the question isn't? Let's wait until the next thing shows up. What if the question actually is - What will we make for tomorrow? What will we make with what we have on hand? What will we make from what we've experienced with what we know? That we can trust? Tomorrow? That, I would suggest, is a far more terrifying question. Because it puts the onus on us. And if we've learned anything, collectively, we've learned that we just can't make it on our own. Especially, especially if it's not a matter of executing someone else's plans. If the next chapter in our shared history really is what I think it is, which is a time and a season in which we get to invent and reinvent and try and explore and experiment and relearn if it really is on us to build a future we can't see from here, then we have to know we can't do that on our own. And so I love that I get to offer myself as a spiritual director. And as a coach. For those who are maybe less initiated in these terms, spiritual direction, as I practice, is mostly about helping you as best I can hear or see, and no God in your own life, no agenda, no platform, and our goals outside of you, having a clearer and more competent sense of God. In you. Coaching tends to be a little bit more goal-oriented. Maybe there's a specific thing you want to achieve, or maybe something you want to quit and stop achieving. Or you've got a project you want to start or a specific way you want to be making or living differently. And if either one of those triggers something in you or stirs something in you, reach out, not just because you need it, but because maybe you do. But if you do, it won't just be so that you feel more settled into your own life. As you're living, it'll be because, and I don't think I'm overstating this when I said it'll be also because the future kind of hinges on it. And I'd love to help you build that.Coaching with Justin
I used to think the phrase, everything in moderation sounded like wisdom. I mean, it was the piece of wisdom folks would dole out when we talked about work-life balance and we talked about alcohol. And we talked about video games, everything in moderation, everything in moderation seemed like the thing that one would say that the goal would be to find the correct balance between all of these things. And that meeting in the middle of all things is still his dominant value. I just got an email, actually, from a work friend with whom I'm putting together this project. And there are differing opinions about how to spend the time on this retreat. And one of the participants said, Well, we will meet in the middle where everyone is happy. It says the notion that somehow there's this middle space between all things, and if we can just find the middle space between all things. Everything in moderation, we'll all be happy. And I'm just kind of over it. I no longer think that everything in moderation sounds like wisdom. I think it sounds impossible. I think it sounds not quite impossible. I think it sounds unhealthy. Now, I note some of that because I get prickly and nervous around any rule that I want to apply to all of life. That here's this rule, and it works for everything. And the phrase, at least the way we apply it, everything in moderation tends to get applied to everything that this will work for everything. As I said, it's about alcohol, it's about, it's about relationships, it's about how we're going to spend time, on a retreat, we'll find the middle space. In the middle, everyone will be happy. I'll find a middle space between my work and my happiness, right? It's just too easy, the harder work of life. And I think the more fruitful work of life. And I think those two things tend to come together and have more to do with paying attention to my life as I'm living it. And in other words, there are things that I don't want to make any time for. It's not a matter of moderation. It's not a matter of how much the how much is none. I don't want that at all. But even that, as a life rule, doesn't really fly in the long run. What flies in the long run is actually the short run. In other words, I need to pay attention to my life as I'm living it, to have a pace of life, to have a community of people around me, to have life practices that allow me to take some steps. And the nowhere I am to look at my own energies, my own interests, my own desires, what's available to me inside of me. What are my heart's desires? What are my limitations? Am I tired, or am I not tired? Then, I look around at the opportunities and challenges around me and make decisions based on where I am and what's available to me internally and externally. Living life paying attention to the life I'm living is more challenging. It's a more regular, and I think, more fruitful practice than just saying everything in moderation. Now, you might be thinking what I'm thinking, which is that it sort of lends itself towards that Ecclesiastes chapter that gets quoted in song, that there is a time for everything. And a season for every activity under the heavens, a time to be born at a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill, a time to heal, a time to tear down, and a time to build a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance a time to scatter stones. And a time to gather them and on and on and on. There's a time in your life and in my life for going way overboard. For spending way too much time, too much in quotes. Applying yourself to a certain practice or spending 90 hours a week on that startup project. There's a time for that. There's also a time in life to pull your hands off the wheel, hit the brakes, and just pull over and do nothing for a season. It's not a matter of moderation. It's a matter of attention. What season Am I in? What's available to me right now if I'm 23 to 29 years old, and I've got ideas for him. It's time to go here if you've got energy, you got space, you got parents who are willing to catch you when you fall. It's time to just go nuts and try a whole bunch of stuff. If you're 48 years old, you have two kids in a mortgage. It's not time to just throw random experiments at the wall through a pane of the wall and see what works. Not all the time, not centrally. Our seasons change our lives. There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heavens. The question isn't all things in moderation. And how do I achieve that? The question is, am I paying attention to my life? Do I have a pace of life in which I know what season I'm in and how to live it? So, if you are in that place, and you are trying to achieve balance, and you think still that all things in moderation are really the goal, but that's starting to degrade your soul because it feels impossible. It's why I wrote the book Sacred Strides. And if you haven't checked it out, I would highly suggest the book. And it's why I do what I do as a coach. So I'm here to help. If you haven't checked out the book, you can go to amazon.com you can go to hearts and minds books.com and order it. I think that the book Sacred Strides might provide some perspective and maybe even some permission for you to pay attention to the season on your end and find some pacing differently in your life so that you can pay attention to the season you're in. This is why I offer myself as a coach because it is difficult to pay attention to our lives as we're living them. It can take some help, and sometimes it can take a professional I am. That's why I do what I do. I can help you potentially pay attention to your season and make some wiser decisions based on what's available to you internally and externally. So check out the books, tickets, and rides, and jump to Justin mcroberts.com. Click on that coaching button and see if I can't help you figure out the season of life you're in
A few weeks ago, I was in the middle of a call with a client, an artist I'm coaching. When? Well, we talked about the project he was doing, which is a project, by the way, that he'd been dying to do for three or four years. We finally created the time we got some money involved. And he was able to put this project together. And what he said to me in the conversation, he said I know that it's good. I just wished that it was great. So we dove into that. But what's the difference between this being good and being great, and the more he talks, the more he self-identified with that tension. In fact, at some point, he said, I know that as an artist, I'm just good. But I wish I was great. Which then begs another series of questions. And it's led to this reflection, and we've talked three or four times since then. So we've talked about these things. And this reflection comes from those conversations, that in every facet of his career, he will look at what he was looking at, what was in front of him, and what he was able to bring to the table, and he could identify that it was good. And he wanted more, that the songs are good. He just wishes they were better, and he thinks he'll probably get this many streams. He wished that he would get more and that he would sell this many vinyls, but he wished that he could sell more. And in every facet of his professional life, he was happy that he had achieved what he achieved, that it was good. And he wished there was more. Now, I don't disparage that kind of thinking, and I think I want to be better. And to grow is fantastic. The problem I started to identify was with the word greatness. I think it was in that conversation, and oftentimes, it is a kind of distraction that instead of saying this is where I am, and I want to take steps from here forward. greatness in the conversation I was having with him was this image somewhere out there, always just beyond his reach, that he was striving towards. He wasn't working from what was true and good about him into a potentially joyful future. He was working away from what was true and good and established in him towards some other thing. Greatness oftentimes can be a terrible distraction from what is. And oftentimes, it's actually rooted in the same system of metrics that steals the joy of our actual processes. In other words, instead of saying, This feels good, this is good. I'm taking joy in this. And I want there to be more of what I have because it is good. Greatness inserts itself as this mist, as this idea, this disembodied image four steps beyond where I am, and says, it's not enough for you to be as you are. You shouldn't be happy, you shouldn't be satisfied, you shouldn't take true joy, it isn't actually good. And it won't be until you get here. The problem with that, if you've been in the cycle before, is that you can work and get to that point, that next step that used to be four steps away. And then once you're there, greatness, quote, unquote, greatness, this image, this misses out there somewhere, the idea will still reinsert itself and say, well, that's fine that you've come this far, but you shouldn't be happy. You shouldn't take joy. It's not good enough. You need to have more. Another way to talk about the way greatness steals joy is the way we enjoy our sports or our music, that you can say, hey, this is my favorite band. And then, as soon as we've talked about our favorite bands, we often move into this conversation about the greatest band in that genre, that it's not enough for this person to be good at what they do. They're not the greatest. And if they're not the greatest in this genre, then you like what they do is a kind of compromise. It's fine that you like this artist, but you really should like this artist. That's what's best: greatness as an idea steals the joy of what makes art, actually art. Greatness can steal the human joy of the process of creation. I think there's something magical to the way of the very beginning of the Hebrew Scriptures. When God creates a thing, God will say that it's good, and then at the end of this whole long process of creating, Shouldn't what God doesn't say is okay? Now we've done all this good, we've gotten to great what God says is instead, as the writer has said, this is very good, not great, very good, more of the goodness that was already. The way I read that is that the value of creation itself is rooted in God's pleasure and joy rather than in what creation can or will achieve. It's not about what comes next. It's about how much pleasure and joy God takes God took in the act of the process of creation. The conversations we oftentimes have centered on the word greatness, steal the human joy, of the act of becoming, and the work of making the steal the joy of art and humanity. In athletics. It's not enough, says greatness, to begin at six years old, and to achieve and to grow, and to get better and to get to college and to get that scholarship and then maybe even get drafted and play in the NBA and be a point guard in the NBA if you're not the greatest. Again, I'll go back to a few weeks ago when I talked about Stefan Curry. And this conversation that's now happening, and I even played into it when I did the podcast, and maybe I'm experiencing a bit of regret that watching Stefan Curry play basketball is a joyous, incredible thing to do. He's amazing what he's so good at what he does. And because he's as good as he is at what he does, his career gets entered into this media-driven conversation about who the greatest point guard in human history is. was that Isaiah Thomas, or was it Magic Johnson? Or is it Stefan Curry? And it's almost as if, if we can't solve that problem, we can't really rightly enjoy this person's career as he's going about it. And that's just so tragic. We do the same thing with musicians. We do the same thing with painters. We do the same thing with friends. Hell, we do it with authors, we do it with spiritual guides, we do it with churches, this disembodied mist of an idea that we call greatness, this kind of perfection of the thing steals the joy of having what we have in front of us, and knowing what it is and celebrating it as it is. Which is to say, learning to actually enjoy the goodness of my life might mean abandoning the pursuit or the idea of greatness. It might mean regularly dissociating myself from systems that want to always measure one thing against the other instead of simply enjoying the thing in front of us. This is why I regularly suggest, for artists specifically, a kind of combination of spiritual practices of rest. In the examination, rest provides space, space between things, but also space for my soul to catch up with itself. And in that space, practicing the examination, intentionally look back over the days that I just lived and asked my soul the question, Where was it good? As I have personally practiced this combination of rest and the examination, I have just had less of an association with an obsession with some disembodied, distant goal towards which I'm working. Instead, I've been able to look at the goodness of the life I'm living and just want more of what it is. I actually have already.
During the first round of the 2023 playoffs, Stephon Curry of the Golden State Warriors, my favorite team, was on the sideline, and his head coach, Steve Kerr, came to him and said, I'm going to rest you for a little while to save your energy. Now, let me hit pause here and confess, admit to pointing out, yes, you are getting a sports analogy. And so if you're not a sports See, type person, and you're not down with the sports ball, I'm sorry, I'm sorry for several reasons, one of which is that they are just such great analogies and images. Sports really do provide some wonderful parallels to the practice of life in general. So yes, I'm a sports fan. And yes, I like the Golden State Warriors. I love Steph Curry. And having lost both my other teams to Las Vegas. I'm celebrating and savoring my relationship with the Golden State Warriors. So with a few minutes left, I believe in the third quarter, head coach Steve Kerr comes to Steph Curry, potentially the greatest point guard in the history of basketball, and says I'm going to arrest you. Now, that is the kind of rest you and I, most of us, are used to not only getting but seeking. It's the kind of rest that is contextualized. By work, I am resting right now from work I've been doing so that I can get back to work and do it more effectively. And better. That's a certain kind of rest. And it's not a bad kind of rest. It's just limited that kind of rest in the long run, won't actually get to the depths of my soul, my being, and help reframe not just my work but my life and my orientation, even towards the work that I'm doing. In other words, there are different kinds of rest. And we kind of need all of them. Steve Kerr knew that Steph would just call them stuff out here. needed some rest in order for the second half to be everything. It could be for Steph Curry. And it turns out it was Steph dropping 30 points in the second half. And we beat us collectively. I took part in this victory. We beat the Sacramento Kings in game seven, a game seven in which Steph Curry scored 50 points, which at the time was the highest point total in all NBA history and a game seven. He's just fantastic. That was the rest he needed in order to do the job. And the value of the rest was predicated on its effectiveness on the work. And part of what we learn is that rest exposes our values, rest points at the things we think are most valuable about ourselves. And at that moment, the most important and valuable thing about Steph Curry was his ability to score. If all of the rest of my life is angled at setting me up so that I can work more efficiently, then what I expose in that kind of rest is that I believe my highest value is my productivity. Rest is a way it's a metric by which we understand, evaluate, and expose our own values. Which is why Sabbath Keeping is such an absolute scandal. Because what it says to the culture around us is that there are things more important about me than what I do for you. And you'll hear great athletes or great artists say something along those lines when interviewed, especially deeper into their careers, that there's more to them than basketball, there's more to them than rock and roll. There's more to them than what they do with even the best of their talents. About three years previous before that basketball game Marshawn Lynch, who had played in the NFL for a number of years, including for the Raiders, when they were in Oakland, gave an interview about football and, ultimately, about rest and rhythm. And he was asked to some degree, like what his advice would be to younger players, and you can read the entire thing. Or you can watch the video, which I would suggest you do for so many reasons whether or not you're a sports person. It's actually a fantastic piece of communication, what he says to the young the advice he would give to young folks, this is you said I've been on the other side of retirement, and it's good when you get over there. And you can do what you want. So I'll tell you all right now, while you're on it, take care of your bread. So when you're done, you can go ahead and take care of yourself. So while you're in it right now, to kill those bodies. Take care of those chicken. Chicken's a way to talk about money. Take care of those mental because, look, we ain't last in that long. I had a couple of players that I played with that they're no longer here no more. They're no longer you feel me. Take care of your metals, heals bodies, y'all chicken. So when you're ready to walk away, y'all walk away, and you'll be able to do what y'all want to do. What Marshawn Lynch is communicating is, while you're in the game, take care of yourself for something more than the game itself, that there is more to who you are than what you're doing in a particular season. That game was game seven of the playoffs, and Steph was tired. So the rest he needed was just enough to get him back on the court so he could do the job. And that's a way to do the game while you're in the game. It is not a way to live long-term. Sabbath Keeping and rest are practices that expose the values we are living with. And, namely, they expose the overvaluing we have of productivity as a way to define our lives. So take the advice of football legend, local hero of entrepreneur, and all-around dope dude Marshawn Lynch, that while you're doing what you're doing, take care of yourself, yes for the thing you're doing, but also in a way that when you walk away from the thing you're doing right now in this season, there's more of you.
One of the conversations that I've been in for many years led to the desire to put together the book, Sacred Strides. And one of the conversations that comes up now that the book is out in the world has to do with burnout; you have most likely been around or been privy to or been in a conversation about burnout. One of the pivotal scenes or moments in the book sacred strides is one in which I point out how many folks actually experienced burnout in the ministry field. That's something along the lines of three out of every five persons who functions as a minister experiences burnout. 60% of the people who work in ministry claimed to admit to experiencing burnout. Usually, with statistics like social stats, the number tends to be a little skewed. Because with something like burnout, there tends to be kind of a shame piece where folks don't want to say they're burned out, so they don't. So if it's three out of five, and if it's 60%, by stats, you can assume there might be a few more folks than even that. Psychologically, when we talk about burnout, we're not just talking about being tired. And I think that's super important. There's one thing to be tired of. And there are certain kinds of tiredness that are actually really good for burnout isn't just about being tired. If you research burnout through the National Institute of Health, you'll see a definition of something along the lines of that burnout is a psychological syndrome emerging as a prolonged response to chronic interpersonal stressors on the job. So it's not just about the hours we put in; it's not just about the difficulty of those hours or the tasks we're up to. One way to talk about this is that burnout has as much to do with feeling misplaced and misused in our jobs and now in our lives as it has to do with the amount of time and energy we're spending. In other words, I can put in the same amount of time, with the same intensity, in a different place and not feel burned out. Another way to get into this conversation is to talk about metrics. Part of our sense of misplacement in our work lives oftentimes has to do with the metrics we're using for really just success. What makes me successful in this job can be a question that either sets me up for burnout or sets me up for healthy patterns of self-actualization and fulfillment. And so one of the gifts that a regular practice of rest does is it actually gives me altitude, not just to evaluate my experience of my job, but to actually evaluate the metrics I'm using when I think about how the job is going. So a couple of simple examples is I'll work with church leaders, who were trained in the metrics of numbers, and putting butts in seats, or conversions, or some sort of numbers-oriented metric. And because that's the metric they're using to evaluate success, anything that might add joy takes a massive backseat to achieve those numbers. And burnout comes when those numbers don't show up. Even if other aspects of the job that are truly life-giving to me are actually in place and going well. Same Same. I'll talk with artists who are bent on selling, and they're supposed to, or they think they're supposed to make a living, quote, unquote, make a living in the arts. And this will want to two ways with artists one, it'll be that they have a part-time job, or maybe even a full-time job, and they're trying to do their art on the side. And the burnout comes from recognizing, like, I don't want to try to hold both these pieces. And I need to actually take a season and full-blown invest in just my art for a season. Or at least as often. They recognize that tangling up their passion projects with the propensity or the need for sales is actually stealing joy. And they're experiencing burnout. because sales are displacing them, it's the thing they don't want to associate with their artwork. Again, one of the only ways to get out of the tube in our lives so we can pay attention to those metrics and how those metrics are shaping our experience of our work is to take regular time away to take a look back at what I'm experiencing and why I'm experiencing it on one level. Rest can be a place where I can look back at my life and figure out how to do the life I'm doing better. On another level, rest can be a way to take a step back and look at the life I'm living on a grander scale and actually make more fundamental changes that I don't want to try to achieve Some of the goals that I've been seeking to achieve, that's why I'm not happy. It's not like I want to get stronger or better at achieving some of these goals. I need to put some of these goals down, find new ones, and live a more fulfilled, happy, and therefore fruitful life. Friends, success is always, and I mean always, a moving target, and far more often than we allow ourselves. Success is the thing we get to decide on. What target do I want to hit? Well, I get to decide that more often than I'm told, which means it's really worth the time to figure out what it is I want to be achieving with the time, the talent, with the energy I have while I have it. Rest can provide space to figure that out.
I have had a somewhat unusual summer. And so far as I've taken a little bit of actual vacation time, I actually don't vacation much. I've never been one to enjoy vacation very much. Which isn't to say I don't like getting away. I do like the getaway; I like having days off. I like adventure, all that kind of stuff, vacation.It just has had historically this really odd association to it.Some of it has to do with childhood stuff, I think. But a lot of it just has to do with the experience I've had when taking vacations, and maybe you're like me in this, that for many, many years, I would be on vacation. And it would I would find it profoundly disappointing or profoundly unsatisfying. And then I'd come home from vacation and feel like I either wasted my time or I felt tired, or I would re-enter my life like something other than refreshed and ready. So the book Sacred Strides actually commits a couple of pages in a chapter to a conversation about vacation and some reflection on our American practice of getting away and taking vacations; I've got some criticisms of how we do it. And I won't read that chapter right now. It's some stuff we'll do later on. But part of what I've figured out as, as I come to those criticisms has to do with the way I have learned to approach time away, time off, and vacation. So here's the thing that I recognize, I learned, and part of why I'm enjoying vacation time in the summer. So when I leave for a vacation, when I'm on vacation, I don't actually like having a plan. That's not to say I don't want to know where I'm going; I want to know where I'm going. I want to have a destination for sure. I want to know that I've got a place to stay, and there'll be food to eat, etc. Outside of that, I really like to keep things kind of loosey-goosey and make decisions as I go along to be stuck with, like, here's the agenda, here's what time you're supposed to be there. Here's what time it's over like. Like, that's how I live the rest of my life vacation time away. I really like not having a plan. But the problem with not having a plan is it leaves me open to impulses. And then the question is about the nature of my impulses. And in the past, this was part of my historical pattern. Because I like my work, and I like my job so much that left to do nothing, I'll just kind of gravitate towards a project or gravitate towards like doing something maybe creatively or even logistically, like that's my natural impulse, my natural pattern, because I've developed that at practice that. And so I'll spend my quote-unquote vacation time tinkering with ideas and with projects or work stuff that I would actually just be happier doing back home, in my office space where all my stuff's available to me. So I would live in this tension like, I'm only half here, the impulses, I'm actually giving myself over to find a deeper, more comprehensive fulfillment when I'm at home in my office.That doesn't tell me I spent some time over the course of years in the practice of rest, paying attention to those impulses in me; why do I gravitate towards work? Some of it really does have to do with my joy. At work, I actually love what I do. But there was this other thing that I didn't recognize in me until I started paying attention.Because an impulse is a momentary explosion of interest or desire, that means that our impulses, which were the way I was thinking about my impulses, have a lot to do with knowing what I want. And in a lot of popular religious culture, all impulse is considered problematic. And sadly, I think that's because, in a lot of our religious contexts, all desire is painted as problematic. And I had spent very little time in my life, slowing down enough to pay attention to different wants in my life. So I could verify I could acknowledge, and celebrate my desire to make something I want to make good things in the world. That's a good thing to want to do. But outside of that, I think I was nervous. Actually, no, I was nervous to ask myself, what would you want for yourself? What would feel good to you? If we weren't doing something productive? We weren't adding to the bottom line. Maybe you resonate with that, that I just wasn't trained and paying attention to my own desire to paint and paying attention to the things that I wanted to my soul is even asking for. It's been in rest and moving away from the normal and very satisfying work patterns that I've learned myself as a person.With desires and interests, it's been in rest that I've had the space to examine and measure the differences between those desires. And those interests, I would be afraid of the desire, in fact, to nap, like it felt guilty like I don't, I shouldn't want to nap, lazy people nap, or to enjoy a nicer meal, not like I don't eat like super expensive stuff, but like, I'm definitely kind of a peanut butter and jelly kind of person most of the days, and so to go out somewhere and actually get a nicer drink and a nicer like, I was afraid to confess to myself that those were things that would actually satisfy my soul in a unique way. See, there are, without question, competing interests and desires in me. And if I don't give myself space and time to recognize them, and examine them, then I can't weigh the one versus the other and actually go ahead and choose better desires over lesser ones or even know the metric by which I'm making that decision. And I think this is where cheap religion and deep religion have their most profound difference. In cheap religion, it's just really simple. You're a corrupt vessel. And the only good in you is what gets injected into you either by your religion or by a Savior who doesn't really like you and tells you we're better than you are already.In deep religion, there are seeds of desire in you that if you chase them, if you follow them, they will lead you to good places because you were designed good by a loving and Good God, who holds your life together, as it is in a posture of joy, and love. And yes, in fact, desire.One of the experiences I have come to in vacation time is I get to be met by the same guy that meets me at work. I get to be met in fun, in recreation, and in that big, fat map.Rest. Far from just being a thing I do between work projects, it is a space in which I get to pay attention to myself and my desires. So that when I separate myself from my life's normal patterns, I can experience joys I wouldn't otherwise know.
The more conversations I have about the book sacred strides and dig into the themes in the stories, the more I find myself going back to some of my own source material, which is not to say the stories I wrote about my own life, but the words and the reflections and the teachings of the people who informed that life again, it's not experience that we learn from it is a reflection upon experience. And some of the people I've read over the course of the last 15-20 years had been very, very helpful in clarifying and helping me to learn from my experience, maybe none more, quite as profoundly as Parker Palmer, when it comes to vocation, you may or may not have read the book, let your life speak is really a book about vocation. It's about how we do what we do and who we are in it. In that book, he writes about self-care. And it's linked to service, which is a conversation I end up having, specifically with pastors, but with pastors and artists in my coaching context, but also, again, in the conversations I'm having on the other side of releasing the book sacred strides in a chapter called selfhood, society, and service, he writes this self-care is never a selfish act. It is simply good stewardship of the only gift I have, the gift I was put on earth to offer. Anytime we can listen to the true self and give it the care it requires. We do so not only for ourselves but for the many others whose lives we will touch. There are at least two ways to understand the link between selfhood and service. One is offered by the poet Rumi in this piercing observation. If you are here faithfully with us, you're causing terrible damage. And then what Palmer does is he writes his own rendition of that same line, and I like this better. He says if we are unfaithful to our true selves, we will extract a price from others. Friends, I don't make massive sweeping cultural analyses all that often. But I'm somewhat comfortable saying that some of what we're seeing in the disarray of religious life, organized, institutionalized religious life, is not because organized religion is bad. It's not because institutionalizing things that matter; that's not negative in and of itself. Some of what we're seeing in the disarray of organized, institutionalized religious practice in America has to do with the number of false self-actors who are organizing and leading religious spaces, spaces that promise a pathway to the true self. So folks like you and I are showing up in institutionalized, organized religious spaces, hoping, dreaming, and wanting a pathway to wholeness and to belovedness. And those spaces, far too many of them, are being led by persons who are not living out of or even truly pursuing their own wholeness. They have given themselves over to this utilitarian mindset that basically convinces folks like myself when I was living in the pastorate that I can't bring my whole self to the table because it's not what these people want. These people do not want a person who is still in process; they want me to have answers. They want me to have strength all the time. They don't want me to have limits; they want me to be available all the time. That the requirements of the job, the demands of the job, the expectations that people come to that job with and for actually invite me into something more like a divided life. I cannot give you my whole self. I don't really want to, and I don't think you want me to either, but I will give you the best of my false self. Meanwhile, that's going to cost everybody in the long run. And that's part of what we're noticing now is we're going to witness and are witnessing the dissolving of the disintegration of persons and religious leadership. These are not on the whole persons that showed up with corrupted mindsets with ulterior motives. These are oftentimes women and men who showed up to serve in ministry positions. As pastors and caretakers of a place of love. They wanted to do the work itself, and then the demands of the culture and sometimes the demands of the person showing up in the seats in front of them or in the boardroom. asked of them something very different than homeless they asked for a mechanism. They asked for utility. They demanded that their limitations be cast aside. They demanded, in fact, that they not be full people but just be as useful as they can be in the quote, "role of pastor or minister" One of the reasons I wrote the book sacred strides is, well, it's one of the reasons I push my pastor friends, my minister clients towards a regular practice of rest, not because the work itself is corruptive, but because in order to do it well, I have to remember why I showed up. And that comes with time. And that comes with practice. Because the noise of doing things right, the noise of doing things effectively, will drown out the desire and the passion in me to do things well and wisely. And from a place of love. It actually means doing things more slowly so that I can enjoy what I'm doing. And here's the real trick. When I mention false self-actors, running and organizing institutionalized religious spaces, I'm not talking about people who showed up to act; I'm talking about people who no longer believe that it's valuable for them to enjoy their own work. One of the ways we move out of a posture of utility and acting and performance is that we look into our own souls, we pay attention to what's going on in our guts, and we decide it is not just okay, it is, in fact, necessary, that I am fully present to this job. And the surest metric of full presence is joy. What if Joy was a primary metric for success? In order to get there, I have to know what brings me joy. So I have to take regular stops along the way in my work to look back over the last week, last month, last year and say, Where was I most fully alive? Where am I least fully alive? And how do I build my Ellenville vocational practices in the direction of life, not just so I can enjoy this thing, but because I know if I'm experiencing joy, then I am more present? And if I am more present, I'm giving the best of the gift I have, which is my whole self, including my limitations.
My last couple of weeks, two weeks really almost at the mark right now, have been turbulent; I would say they'd been rough. But that's mostly just been turbulent. It's been hard. Not because I wasn't a part of and doing some really great things, I was. I had a wonderful time in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and I was in Santa Cruz with Young Life staff. And I was doing things that were wonderful. I was only somewhat present in some of those things. Because internally, I was really having a hard time. And while there are a number of factors to that, one of the main factors is the two weekends ago was Father's Day weekend. And it's almost always a tricky, sticky, and other kind of icky weekend for me; as a dad, I love being celebrated. Obviously, I like being with my kids. But man, as time has passed, I just miss my dad more on those days. The older I get, the closer I get to his age; when I lost him, the harder it is to miss him when I miss him. So it happens more. It happens less frequently than it used to happen. But when it happens, and it's exacerbated by an entire holiday celebrating fatherhood, woof. That was a predominant factor. So in the meantime, I'm having these incredible experiences. And I get to do this incredible work. And I'm with these wonderful people. And I'm living in some form of disintegration, not terrible. And this is part of how we live a lot of the time. I didn't have space. I didn't have room, and I didn't really want it to. I didn't. I didn't have space; I didn't have room to actually deal with all that was going on in me. I needed to be present for what was in front of me. That's part of how we live; that's kind of unavoidable. I can have internal struggles; I can be doing something really incredible and wonderful, but I have to be in both places and both things at the same time. So I live a little bit divided. But I didn't have time to let my soul catch up with myself entirely. This brings me to this; my friend Daniel introduced me to this John Dewey quote, the reads; We do not learn from experience; we learn from reflecting on experience. So I don't learn from experience; the thing I'm in doesn't really teach me anything directly. I can have all these experiences; I can receive all this data. I can have all these feelings. And then, at some point, the gift of rest as a practice is I let my soul and my experiences catch up with me. And intentionally, we call this the examine, look through what's going on in me. And then I can learn I just had not until a couple of days ago had the time to let my life catch up with me so that I could be integrated and be whole, which is one way to talk about belovedness. In the book Sacred Strides, in the introduction, I lead out with this story, this image about jogging with my dad for the last time. Their story reads like this from the book. Running together with my dad was a key connection point until I lost him to depression and suicide in 1998. To this day, I still remember our last run. It was really hard. It was hard for him physically; it was hard for both of us emotionally. We barely got into the four miles that we planned to run before he started falling apart. His left knee hurt from a foul he'd taken a few months previously, and he couldn't maintain his rhythm or his pace. He limped back to the car. And I remember him trying to hide his face. So I couldn't see that he was crying. I'm sorry, I can't keep up. He said. I was in my mid-20s At the time, and I was in decent running shape. But I didn't need him to keep up. I just wanted him to be with me. Because I loved him. I know now how hard it was for my dad to believe the simple truth that he was just playing loved. I moved around to his weak side, lightly grabbed his wrist, and threw his arm over my shoulders, and we finished the last half mile that way, arms around each other. Walking step by step together, his weakness meant room for strength in me, which meant connection. And that's all they ever wanted. Wholeness and integration is one of the gifts of the practice of rest that I can let my whole life catch up with me, including the things that are tearing me apart inside. I don't have space for that, and most of my life, I actually have to be present in what's in front of me. And sometimes, if not oftentimes, especially if I'm having a rough time internally. I've got to put that somewhere close to a backburner so that I can be present to the people to the job that I'm doing in front of me, which means that rest gets to be a place where I catch up with my whole self or my whole self catches up with me and I can look at the whole of my life, my victories, my successes, my positive and negative experience and let me be entirely myself and know that I am loved in every square inch of my whole life.
I have been, in some way, shape, or form, engaged in conversation about AI technology and our relationship with technology for a really long time. In 1999, or 2000, I read Ray Kurtzweil, his book, The Age of Spiritual Machines. And I was shocked if it was way beyond my understanding the terms he was using the vision he was painting of how life would work in relationship with technology like I didn't have a context for it. And then as time went on, and this is part of what good books do as they provide us with language for things we haven't encountered, yet, I started seeing some of his predictions come to life that we would become not just more dependent upon the machines we use, we become more like them. And they would become more like us; it was a fascinating sci-fi-ish kind of adventure for a long time. And now, I'm going to hit pause here for a second because the place I'm not going to go is this place of sort of Luddite ism, where, like, I'm anti-technology; I'm actually not anti-technology; I love that I'm looking around at the tech in front of me and actually love all this stuff I really like having around me. And at the same time, I become increasingly aware, the older I get, of the ways in which the tech around me, the instruments, and the devices around me, and my use of them have actually detracted from my experience of living in my own body. And living as a human. There are ways in which all of this stuff has made my life way better, way easier, and sometimes more enjoyable. And there are ways in which I'm not as fully alive as I could be. If I wasn't as dependent on some of the things that I use technologically. This brings me to this because I'm someone who has been in this conversation and talked about it publicly; folks will send me things every once in a while that they're encountering. And a friend of mine recently sent a tweet thread that they were reading about chat GPT showing up in their workplace. The thread was critical of chat GPT, but maybe not in the way you would think. So Chad GPT had been used to write this vision statement for an organization that this person was working for. It's a charitable organization that helps people in various ways. And the meeting he was in was about vision; it was about who they are as an organization and what happens next. And normally, once a year, once every once in a while. He and the rest of the team and some board of directors types would get together in a room they would talk about, are we on a mission? Are we on? You know, are we living on our vision? Are we who we think we are? It's a very human question. And how do we continue to live that out? And then they would, over the course of time, have this conversation in a meeting, and people would write down these things. And then, they would pass all these notes on to someone who would then write them out. This is who we are. And this is how we're going to execute on who we are. And they would live that out over the next few months or years. This article, though, was put on the table; this document was written by Chet GPT, and someone in the company said I can expedite this process. I can make this faster. I'm just going to plug in the information and make these asks to check GBT, they brought the document, and they were working then from this document that a bot had written a chatbot had run. Now his critique wasn't just that someone's job had been taken by a chatbot. And oftentimes, it would have been him that was part of why he was writing. And normally, he was the person that would impasse these notes. And he'd spend a few hours over the, you know, every day over the course of a week or so to compile them and write a document; he'd been replaced. So there was that there a sense of, like, my job has been replaced, and I'm bummed about that. But it wasn't just about not having the job to do. He actually talked about missing the process, that instead of sitting in the room with these people that he works with, talking about this project that they do together and the joy of the work that they get to do every once in a while. It had just been done. It was faster, it was more expedient, and it saved them hours and hours and hours of time, but he wanted those hours back. He wanted to have done the work. Which brings me to this. I wonder if the real crisis when it comes to our relationship to technology and really, specifically, to the use of and our relationship to artificial intelligence. Intelligence isn't just, hey, we might have our jobs replaced, and we won't make money. I think that's a massive consideration. I don't think it's not, I do think it is, But I think the deeper consideration is this the real joy of work, the real fruit of work, actually isn't that we get to pay our bills if we do it. Well, that's not really the deepest thing. And the deepest truth about what work is, that is a fundamental truth. It's a fundamental societal truth that if you do your job, well, if you work well, part of the reward is you could get to pay for the life you're living. deeper than that, though. The real deep fruit of work is who you become as you are doing it. This is what it's called an axiology, or an ethic, or even a theology or philosophy of work. And I think it is the thing that is primarily missing in our conversation about AI. Not just, hey, what will we do when these machines take our jobs? How will we pay for our lives? But who am I going to be without the work in my life? What the guy who wrote the tweet thread was missing wasn't just the job and what it would pay him. It was the joy of becoming as they did that work. This brings me to this underlying problem when it comes to our understanding of work and its relationship to rest. And part of why I wrote the book Sacred Strides. When I initially set out to write this book for this time of my life. It was a book predominantly about rest. I looked around, and I noticed as I was putting it together there were so many incredible books, but the rest was about Sabbath Keeping. I'm thinking of Mr. Buchanan's book, the rest of God, which actually shows up in my book as part of my story, as does Walter Bergman's book, Sabbath is Resistance. I'm thinking of Lauren winters book, Mudhouse, Sabbath, and I realized, gosh, I don't really think I have a ton to add to that. I'd rather point people to those books. And say this is more quintessential teaching about Sabbath and Sabbath Keeping. And then I noticed this problem that a lot of the culture built around the reading of those books made work an enemy of human flourishing, that rest had become the antidote that Sabbath Keeping was treated as an escape from the drudgery of the awfulness of having to work and I get it. I know this. I mean, if, again, if you've read the book, you know, you know, my dad's whole story around work was rooted in anxiety; it wasn't a story of joy or becoming or love. My dad's work ethic was rooted in the fear that if he didn't do a good job, doing his work, doing his job, he wouldn't hold his life together, he lose his family, etc. I get that. But I've never believed that the real problem in my dad's life was that he was working, or even working hard, or even working a lot. The real problem in my dad's life was the narrative that had been built around him and really specifically about him as a worker that he was hitting the target. If, by work, he held his own life together, that's a terrible philosophy of axiology and a theology of work. What I miss about my dad is not what he provided for me; what I miss about my dad is him as a person; I liked who he was. And that is what actual work does. And that is the actual value of work. It helps us become whole persons.Part of our human flourishing, part of what it means to be fully alive, is to work. So when that gentleman sat in that boardroom and looked at the AI-generated document in front of him, what he was missing, was part of his own human flourishing. I want to be the person who did that, not just because I want the job, but instead because I want to be the person who did that. That's part of who I want to be as a human being. It has been pointed out by theologians and storytellers and preachers far wiser and better than I am that in the biblical creation poems, work is actually a thing handed to us as humans before anything goes wrong. That work was not a thing that we had to do after stuff went sideways; instead, part of Wednesday, what went sideways when things went sideways was our relationship to work, which says to me that part of what it means for us to be on a redemptive journey individually collectively, societally, globally, are we get to need to reorient our relationship to work itself. And if there is a real threat posed to us by the handing off of our work lives to machines, it's that we will lose a sense of the value of our own becoming and the joy of work itself. That will continue to see work and any sort of labor at all, as a kind of evil, as a kind of negative, as a thing that is opposed to leisure and fullness. When in reality, I'm designed to give the best of who I am to the world around me that my heart is designed to love
You have used the phrase or heard the phrase, 'let's make some memories' or 'let's make some moments.' If you pay attention to the podcast, you know that for the last few weeks, I've been thinking a lot about the passage of time. It's one of the things that came up a lot as I wrote the book Sacred Strides. I'm not just thinking about the way we experience time; I'm thinking especially about how we experienced the time that has passed. And I think, less than experiencing time, the way the calendar dictates it in blocks and then lists, I think we experience time more. So in moments, these clusters of emotional explosion, or implosion, in my reckoning, I think these life moments happen in two ways. Or at least for me, they do. There are probably several more; this is just my little spectrum. One of those ways is moments, I find myself in things like birthdays, or finish lines, you will get tired of me talking about turning 50 This year, but I do; I turned 50. This year, it's a big deal for me. I'm having a moment. My son, this week, turned 13 years old. He's now officially a teenager. That's a moment. Finish lines are a moment I crossed the finish line of a half marathon, I was having a moment. publishing this book was a moment. Now these are things in which these are moments in which I find myself that other people, to some degree, have set up; I'm sort of in the moment. But the Publisher Set the deadline for the publishing of the book. And I didn't turn my son like butter until he turned 13. That's just how things happen biologically over the course of weeks, months, and years. Those are the moments that are orchestrated by other people or other systems around us. Sometimes those moments are random; you look up while dancing and think, oh, my gosh, I feel fully alive right now. And you're having a moment. What makes these moments tricky is that they require us to recognize them. They're just happening all the time. Yeah, we can have the birthday on the calendar. But we do that because we know that at that moment, I'm going to want to pay attention, which is to say, I'm going to want to offer myself more completely in that space. Because I want to know that this is important. While it's happening, that's kind of what makes that moment, a moment that I know it's important. While it's happening. Learning to live that way. And to recognize those moments is a practice of awareness and receptivity. And one of the things a regular practice of rest does is it provides space in which I can practice this kind of awareness and receptivity. That before too many days have passed, I can stop, and I can look back at a few days and let my soul catch up with me and say, That was really good, or That sucked. Or, man, I missed that. The sacred book strides are itself a collection of moments; it was necessary that as those moments arrived, and especially in the short times afterward, I actively created space to hold those moments differently, more intentionally. And learning to live that way, in a posture of awareness. And a posture of receptivity is actually what sets me up for the second kind of moment, the ones I get to set up and set out to make with those that I care about. I don't want to live my life more deeply now that I know, or at least think I know, that I experienced my life this way in these clusters of emotional memory. I'm conscious of that in my planning. And I think specifically, I think strategically about how I might set myself up and set myself up with those I care about to have and Sharon, those kinds of moments, the kinds of moments that actually enrich and deepen our lives. It goes really quickly, friends, this life. One of the ways we slow down this passage of time so that we don't look up and think Oh, my God, where did it all go? Because we slow down to recognize the moments we're in, recreate space in our lives to look back at the time that has passed, so that it didn't just pass, we can see ourselves in our lives. We're living right there. And then plan for a future for the next week, the next month, or the next year. These are the people I want to be thinking about when the clock is running out. These are the memories I want to have when I look back on those last few times. And take that deep breath and be thankful that I got to live it all in order to have that end-of-life experience. I have to slow down, recognize the moments that I'm in while I have them, to be thankful enough, not just that I had them, that I would plan to have more of them. So that, the end of all things, I had more fully lived the life I actually had while I had it. That's why I wrote the book. It's not just a way to get my ideas out into the world; it's a way for me to invite you into the practice of slowing down, paying attention, and billing, being fully present to the life you're living a good, deep, rich, beautiful life. That'll take some planning, it'll take some sacrifice, it'll take pulling time away from systems that would just steal every minute of your life for their benefit. It'll take putting down the damn phone. It'll mean thinking really specifically and strategically about who makes you feel alive and who doesn't. And then making plans to spend more time with the people on the first list. So I hope that this podcast, this moment we're in right now, can be a stopping point. And I hope that the book itself can provide a few stopping points for you to look deeply into the beautiful good life you've been handed; I hope to challenge and invite you into the practice of regular rest of Sabbath Keeping. Not so that you can get better for the work that you're doing and not so that you can just wake up more refreshed, to give yourself back to the same machinery, but instead so that as time passes, you would have fully lived the life you've been given the incredible gift of a life you've been given.
It has been said, and I've come to believe this as a truth, that writing for an author is as much as anything else, a process of self-discovery, that one of the things that happen necessarily, in the process of writing, actually writing is that I see myself, I look into my own soul, I recognize things about my own life patterns, history, my moments, I learned me as I write. And I've been asked a few times, including last night at the book release party for Sacred Strides. What are the things that I learned about myself in the process of writing Sacred Strides? And I think there are three there; there's more, some logistical stuff. But internally, when it comes to my soul, there are three things that I've come to over the course of writing this project. And the first one is this, I really do prefer and want to live a smaller life, not just to live the same life at a slower pace; I want my life to get smaller. And here's some of what I mean by that. There are relationships in my life, institutional and interpersonal relationships, that I had thought for many, many years were more central than they actually are. And I've thought they were healthier as more central relationships than they really are. They're not bad. They're not bad places. They're not bad relationships, and they are not bad people. They're not bad institutions. They just can't be central. One, because there's only so much of me. And I can only give so much of myself. While I have time on the planet. And associated with that. I want to give the best of me, to the things, to the relationships, to the institutions, to the projects that I actually give myself to. I want to be more fully present. When I am present, institutionally, vocationally, and personally, that comes with being pickier about where I'm actually giving myself away. And when I'm applying myself to where I'm present, I need fewer central relationships; I look at the model of Jesus, who certainly had the masses around him, certainly had even the 72, who were more regular round and even had the 12. But within the 12, there were really two; I want my life to get smaller so that I can be more fully present in the life I'm living. That's the first thing I've come to, and come to recognize and appreciate and want in the process of writing sacred strides. The second thing is kind of a sad realization, which is that a lot of the agencies, ideologies, institutions, platforms, the environments that I put myself in are not neutral. They have their own agendas. And in those agendas, they're things that are wanted of me that I don't want to give. In other words, I am regularly being acted upon. When I give myself over to institutional settings, to online platforms, to communal settings, that's when I am placed with other people, and I'm actually inserting myself into a sort of tidal movement of agenda of interest of desire. And while that's not a bad thing, I have acted as if my environments, institutional and otherwise, have been neutral, and they're simply not. You can probably see some of the connection to the first learning curve about the smaller life. Some of why I feel the things I feel some of why I fight some of the battles internally I fight is because over the course of many years, my soul has been acted upon by agendas that I did not know I was participating in. I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't listening. I thought I was just somewhere in space, and I wasn't. I was in Tides. I was in flow with agendas and ideologies that weren't always good for my soul, my relationships, and my career. The third thing I can say without question is that I have come to. I've learned I've agreed in the process of writing this book how absolutely wonderful it is to be a dad. And I don't mean that in just this sort of sentimental Hallmark card way. I mean that The deeper I get in the discovery and understanding of who I am at the core of myself as a beloved one of God's, the more being a dad to my kids and even a kind of dad figure to kids that aren't exactly mine becomes a favorite place. And a really, really clear place to practice my own belovedness. And to extend that belovedness, there is a kind of archetypal experience to fatherhood, that as much as I might try to tell you what it's like to be a dad, you really can't compare it to something else being a parent in general, for me, being a dad, you can't compare it to being a coach, you can't compare it to being a teacher, those are things that you would compare to being a parent, it is an archetypal experience, there's nothing quite like being a parent, apologies to dog parents. But now this experience of being aces dad, of being Kaitland stab, of being a father figure to neighborhood kids, and the sons and the daughters of sisters and brothers of mine have unveiled and sharpened and clarified my own belovedness in ways that just I wouldn't have said I wouldn't have seen or even received really otherwise. And in the process of writing this book, I've been able to look at those relationships with a much deeper thankfulness that I get to be here, I get to be this person with foreign to these people. So those are the three things that I can think of off the top of my head that I know I have learned in the process of writing sacred strides. As you read the book, I'd love to hear from you about what it unveils in you, what it exposes in you about maybe some things in your own life that highlights or even down the road. Maybe after you've read the book and slowed down a tad, or pay more specific attention to certain aspects of your work life. I'd love to hear what it is you're learning as well. This is why I do what I do publicly so that we can share these things and learn and grow together. Until next time,
If you pay attention to my life in any way, shape, or form, you know that I have a 12-year-old, almost 13, and a six-year-old; she just turned six. My six-year-old, I call her the bird. She has a really unique and interesting relationship with time. And over the last, I don't know, three, four years, I've been paying attention to and learning from the way she actually experiences time. So when she has a memory about something, and it's something that was significant to her, if it's something that was important, or she feels impacted by, she'll say that it was yesterday. That's it's the word she uses. Do you remember yesterday? Now, when I hear her say that, my brain registers this calendar image, and I know that the event she's talking about wasn't yesterday; it was maybe two weeks ago; it could have been a year ago. But for her, the relationship she has to the moment to the memory isn't actually predicated on or measured by some, like, grid of blocks with dates and colored words. It's in her soul. That thing that happened is actually still close to her. She's still holding it right there. In her brain. In her body. She remembers it like it was yesterday; you've maybe heard that phrase; I remember it like it was yesterday. I think part of what we mean when we say that is that this thing that happened, in quote, the past is still deeply significant to me. So here's where Caitlin, the bird's relationship, the time is reinforcing the way I live my own life. Some of the most important things that have happened to me happened many years ago, three years ago, five years ago, and 20 years ago; I'm thinking of some specific things right now. And when my mind orients itself, when my soul orients itself towards those events, they're right there in front of me, quote, as if it was yesterday. And when I tell myself, Hey, that was a long time ago, I realized now that part of what I'm doing is saying, hey, that shouldn't have the hold on you that it does today because of how many days ago or weeks ago or months ago or years ago, it was its distance from this date on some grid calendar should matter more to you than your soul's experience of that event. What I'm doing when I tell myself that it was too long ago to matter is I'm denying my own experience of my own life. Whereas my six-year-old is looking into her own soul and saying, This still matters. Right now, because of the way I'm experiencing it, because of the way I feel it. So while I'm certainly on board with the whole notion that feelings are not facts and that my experience of a thing doesn't define the thing itself. I also know that the way I live my life from day to day, and the way I relate to the people around me, the way I'm postured to give myself to the day I'm in is actually really impacted and shaped and formed by my experience of my past. And I need to grant myself not just permission but actual space to let my yesterday, the yesterday that's still talking to me right now, actually get integrated into my today so that I can be more like my six-year-old, who emotionally is far more whole and present to her life than I am. The calendar shape, its blocks, and its coding inform my soul far too deeply. I'm far too quickly moving from one thing to the next. And I don't let my actual experience of the day before it catch up to me before I'm on to the next thing, which is to say that the practice of rest of stopping regularly throughout the course of my life allows the days before me to catch up with me. So that when I step into tomorrow, I'm more fully integrated. I'm more fully myself. I know who I am because I remember who I was; I can sift between things that mattered and didn't matter to me from the days before so that I can be more completely and wholly who I am in the days to come. The practice of rest is not just a divorce from the drudgery of daily life. It is a way to allow myself to become fully integrated as a human so that I can be fully who I am in the life that I'm living.
I talk a lot about seasons, seasons of life, seasons of ministry seasons of work. I love the concept. I love the idea. I love the notion that for long stretches of time, somewhat indeterminate stretches of time, certain things are true certain things work. I like that there isn't a stringent timeline; when we talk about seasons, we can be in a really long season, or we can be in a really short season. One of the reasons we talk about seasons when they come up is because of transition. Not that we don't enjoy the seasons we're in. But normally, when we have a conversation about seasons of life, it's because we're moving from one season to another or we're sensing the end of a season and the beginning of a new one. And I used to think that the energy, the internal energy I needed to actually move me from one season to the next, was about competence and satisfaction that I was satisfied with the work I had done in the previous season. And, or I was confident about what was going to happen in the next season. And this is important because, as you know, we can be in that seasonal transitional moment and not be ready; I can come to the end of the season and not be ready to move on from that season. Or I can be moving into another season and not be or feel ready to start it. I used to think that was always because I was either not done with or not satisfied with the work I'd done in the previous season or not ready for and confident in the work I was already doing to do in the next. I've come to recognize that's actually not true. Because I care about the things I do, I'm pretty much never fully satisfied with the work that I've done; I can look back over the seasons in my past and rethink everything I can rethink top to bottom, and woulda, coulda, shoulda, a, I could have put the cherry on top. And this way, I kind of wish I'd have had this conversation differently; I should have added this element to this project; I can rethink and reinvent, in retrospect, for hours and hours on end every day. Because I care about what I do.
Sarah Billups is a Seattle-based writer who has been speaking at and about the communal practice of religion for a number of years now. Most recently, she's collected a number of those thoughts in a book called orphaned believers. It's a wonderful book actually deeply insightful. And I was thrilled to have her on the podcast to talk not only about that book, but about the history she's had with religion with Christianity specifically, and the things that led to the assembly of those thoughts that make up that book. I enjoyed the conversation. I think you will as well.Check it out. Links for Sara BillupsWebsite - https://www.sarabillups.comInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/sara.billups/Links For Justin:JustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdNEW Book - Sacred Strides (Pre-order)Amazon Barnes and Noble It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Welcome to the At Sea Podcast I'm your host, Justin McRoberts. I don't speak to a lot of other coaches, I talk to a few, but it's not a regular part of my conversation I actually fell into in some ways, the coaching job, just discovered myself doing it after a number of years. And so when I get to actually sit down and talk with someone else, working in that same space, it can be really refreshing. I found my conversation with Alan Briggs to be deeply informative, really refreshing, and incredibly enjoyable. I like his approach to human development to leadership. I also like how he integrates and understands the divine underpinnings in each human life. I think you'll enjoy this conversation. I know that I did.Check it out. Links for Alan BriggsStay Forth - https://www.stayforth.comLinks For Justin:JustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdNEW Book - Sacred Strides (Pre-order)Amazon Barnes and Noble It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Welcome to the At Sea Podcast. I'm your host, Justin McRoberts. When I first read Kevin Sweeney's initial book The Making of a Mystic, I found a bit of a kindred spirit that's somewhat unlikely person in the pastorate as well as a relatively unlikely person when one thing because of terms like mystical or contemplative. You might remember that conversation on this very podcast about that initial book from last season. His most recent book is called The Joy of Letting Go. And it actually met me exactly where I needed to be met when I picked it up as well. His language is a wonderful bridge between the everyday experience of life and the desired sacred posture with which I want to live that everyday life. I enjoy this conversation. I think you will as well.Check it out. Links for Kevin SweeneyThe Joy Of Letting Go - https://a.co/d/0IQKE0DLinks For Justin:JustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdNEW Book - Sacred Strides (Pre-order)Amazon Barnes and Noble It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Welcome to the At Sea podcast. I'm your host, Justin McRoberts. I met Jess Ray a number of years ago at a conference where she was helping to lead songs and realize there was some of her music that I had heard before. Maybe you had that experience where you're paying attention to someone or something, you hear something and you realize, like, oh my gosh, this is already in my system. I'm already a fan of this. Well, having already been a fan of her music, just by nature of the songs themselves, then watching her engage with people. In the art of song-leading, I was locked in as a lifetime fan. I really like what Jess Ray does musically. I also really liked the way she goes about doing it. When I return to this theme over and over that art is anything we create that forges a connection between people. I think about people like Jess Ray, who really is actually about that connection, who pays attention to the connection, who senses that connection in herself. You'll hear that in the conversation. And I think you'll feel that in the worksheet as if you're not already familiar with it. So check out this conversation. I think you'll dig it. Links for Jess RayWebsite - www.jessray.com Links For Justin:JustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdNEW Book - Sacred Strides (Pre-order)Amazon Barnes and Noble It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
Welcome to the At Sea Podcast. I'm your host, Justin McRoberts. What does it mean to lead well? Heck, what does it even mean to lead period? And specifically, what does it mean to lead and lead well, in a religious context, when we talk about ministry, we talk about Church we talk about religious culture in general. Nowadays, the question of what good healthy leadership looks like might be the most important conversation on the table when it comes to the "Future of the American church and American religion." It's a conversation that Angie Ward has been in for a long time, and had some poignant thoughts, not only in her books but in podcasts and interviews like this one, I really enjoyed the clarity and the confidence and the humility with which Angie Ward approaches conversations about what it looks like to not just lead but to lead well. I enjoyed this conversation. I think you will also.Check it out. Links for Angie WardWebsite - www.angieward.netLinks For Justin:JustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdNEW Book - Sacred Strides (Pre-order)Amazon Barnes and Noble It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble
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