If Then | News on technology, Silicon Valley, politics, and tech policy

He started using ChatGPT to help with spreadsheets. But their relationship took a turn, and before long it was telling him he could leap off a 19-story building and fly. Guest: Kashmir Hill, features writer at the New York Times. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's a record-breaking year for America: we've now had the most reported cases of measles since the disease was declared “eradicated” in 2000.  How did public health backslide so hard that it undid decades of progress—and is there any hope we can get back on track?  Guest: Dylan Scott, senior health correspondent at Vox. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As the One Big Beautiful Bill bounced around Congress, one provision—the 10-year moratorium on states making laws to regulate artificial intelligence—fell out. But AI-fans don't need to worry, there's still plenty of industry support in the bill.  Guest: Will Oremus, technology news analysis writer for the Washington Post. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode was originally published on April 27, 2025.  The Trump administration has already begun cutting the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which includes the U.S. National Weather Service. What's the advantage to understanding the weather less? Guest: Daniel Swain, weather and climate scientist with the University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Under a normal administration, a merger between two large advertising firms might attract the government's interest for anti-monopoly reasons. Under this one, the Federal Trade Commission is creating conditions to…ensure that X still gets advertiser dollars? Guest: Kate Conger, technology reporter for the New York Times. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In addition to the three-dimensional war of bombs and missiles, Iran and Israel—and the US—are squaring off in a cyber battle. With everything from water infrastructure to banking connected to the internet in some way, how much damage can cyberattacks do?   Guest: Maggie Miller, POLITICO cybersecurity reporter Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

ARC, the data broker owned by the country's major airlines, has been selling domestic flight data in the US to Customs and Border Protection. But in the contract, they told CBP not to reveal where the data was from… why?  Guest: Joseph Cox, co-founder of 404 Media and the co-host of the 404 Media Podcast.  Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Trump administration's anti-immigration campaign has become defined by distasteful memes that gleefully portray the mass deportations being carried out across the country. It's impossible to ignore… which is exactly what the administration wants.  Guest: Drew Harwell, tech reporter at the Washington Post.   Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Patrick Fort.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A guide to keeping your phone, and your digital life, safe when you're crossing the border. Guest: Lily Hay Newman, senior writer for WIRED covering information security. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Elon Musk has ridden off into the sunset acrimoniously (maybe), but the Department of Government Efficiency is just getting started. Will DOGE continue wildly cutting or is something even more chaotic coming next?  Guest: Makena Kelly, senior writer at WIRED.  Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Assistant Attorney General Gail Slater inherited the government's antitrust case against Google and is eager to follow it through—but likely not for the same reasons as her predecessors.  Guest:  Nancy Scola, reporter and contributing writer at POLITICO.  Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of the goals of DOGE was to get rid of the “silos” that keep government agencies from sharing freely amongst themselves efficiently and instead organize data using tools offered by companies like Palantir. The thing is, a lot of those silos are there by design, and removing them could be a nightmare for privacy advocates.  Guest: Sheera Frenkel, tech reporter for the New York Times. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

His time in Washington was brief, but we'll be picking up the pieces for a long time. What Elon's exit signals for the future of DOGE, and Musk's political career.  Guest: Kate Conger, reporter for the New York Times covering X and other technology companies. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The war between Ukraine and Russia is being fought increasingly via drone —and NATO and US military leadership is training troops for future conflicts that will pit man against machine. Guest: Jake Epstein, senior defense reporter for Business Insider. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The crypto industry poured tons of money into the last election cycle. Is the GENIUS Act, which has bipartisan support, their big payoff? Guest: Hilary Allen, professor at American University's Washington College of Law. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

OpenAI started as a non-profit dedicated to building safe A.I. Now, they're obsessed with building artificial general intelligence by any means necessary - even if they don't quite know what that is.  Guest: Karen Hao, reporter and author of “Empire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares in Sam Altman's OpenAI” Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do you do when your likeness has been turned into A.I.-generated pornography?—it's a problem people are already facing. But legislation moving through Congress may cause more problems than it would solve. Guests: Joanne Chew, actress and visual artist based in LA. Samantha Cole, cofounder of 404 media and author of “How Sex Changed the Internet and How the Internet Changed Sex.” Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aging equipment and chronically understaffed air traffic control have made flying in and out of Newark's Liberty International Airport a delay-snarled mess. And the problems there aren't entirely unique. Will Congress and the Trump administration be the ones to fix it?  Guest: Will Guisbond, staff reporter covering air traffic control for The Air Current Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The intimate and extremely personal experience of bringing a child into this world? There's an app for that…and forums…and so much advice…that contradicts other advice…and a surprising amount of eugenics. Guest: Amanda Hess, critic at the New York Times and author of the book “Second Life: Having a Child in the Digital Age.” Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why artificial intelligence isn't waiting for consumer demand. Guest: Gerrit De Vynck, tech reporter for The Washington Post. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What is it about the way that Elon Musk wields power that led 65 percent of Americans to agree he has too much influence on the federal government? Guest: Faiz Siddiqui, Washington Post tech reporter and author of “Hubris Maximus: The Shattering of Elon Musk.” Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What drove Marc Andreessen's transformation into a political actor, and what is he looking for from having Washington in his thrall? Guest: Zoe Schiffer, WIRED journalist covering business and Silicon Valley. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Trump administration has already begun cutting the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which includes the U.S. National Weather Service. What's the advantage to understanding the weather less? Guest: Daniel Swain, weather and climate scientist with the University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of DOGE's goals is to get government data out of “silos” and make it more easily shared across departments. But there are good reasons for some data to be kept apart.  Guest: Vittoria Elliot, WIRED reporter covering platforms and power. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If setting up a baby monitor in the room with your sleeping kids doesn't allow you to pop out and enjoy the cruise ship, what are they actually good for? Guest: Stephanie Murray, writer for The Atlantic, the newsletter Family Stuff, who wrote “You're on Vacation. You Leave Your Kid in Your Hotel Room With a Baby Monitor. What Could Go Wrong?” for Slate. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, the FTC and Meta began a trial to determine if—by adding Instagram and WhatsApp to its portfolio with Facebook over a decade ago—the company became a monopoly in social media. If Meta loses, it could be forced to split up, losing Instagram—and its substantial ad revenue. Guest: Paresh Dave, senior writer at WIRED. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

TikTok was on the verge of being sold to a non-Chinese company when Trump rolled out his new tariff plans. Now everything is thrown into uncertainty and the company has until mid-June to find another buyer—or be banned in the United States. Guest: Sapna Maheshwari, New York Times reporter covering TikTok, technology and emerging media companies. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The same day  Nintendo was officially introducing its latest console, Donald Trump was announcing his new global tariff plan. As a result, gamers were treated to an early preview of what a world bound up in tariffs would look like. Spoiler: It'll probably cost you a lot more. Guest: Jason Koebler, a co-founder of 404 Media Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Elon Musk's polarizing persona and antics have created a toxic cloud around his companies, particularly Tesla. But despite that, Wall Street can't seem to quit him. Why?  Guest: Felix Salmon, host of Slate Money and chief financial correspondent for Axios. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, DOGE set its sights  and scythe on the Department of Health and Human Services, with a goal of cutting 10,000 federal workers, once again raising the question: what's their endgame here? Guest: Makena Kelly, senior writer for WIRED Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Memecoins are a niche type of cryptocurrency with no intrinsic value. But they remain a popular form of crypto, as seen earlier this year with President Trump's own memecoin. And if it worked for him, then why not our little podcast?  Guests:  Azeem Khan, advisor to UNICEF's crypto fund and cocreator of the blockchain Morph. Nitish Pahwa, Slate staff writer covering business and tech. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

During his first term, President Trump and Jeff Bezos openly sparred with each other. During this second administration, though, it seems like Bezos is trying to endear himself - and his companies - to the White House. So what changed? Guest: Dana Mattioli, reporter for the Wall Street Journal and the author of The Everything War: Amazon's Ruthless Quest to Own the World and Remake Corporate Power. Special thanks to David Maraniss. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The National Institutes of Health is the primary engine of biomedical research around the world, which makes the Trump administration's dramatic cuts to its grant program both confusing and potentially incredibly harmful. Guest: Katherine J. Wu, staff writer for the Atlantic. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With a Trump-friendly Supreme Court and a contentious relationship with the press, could Donald Trump follow through on his 2016 campaign goal of making it easier to sue media companies for libel—and imperil America's free press? Guest: David Enrich, business investigations editor at the New York Times and author of “Murder The Truth.” Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The public's anger towards Elon Musk and DOGE has found an outlet in the form of Musk's car company Tesla. How long can the company put up with a sinking reputation and stock price?  Guest: Pranshu Verma, tech reporter for the Washington Post.  Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

After the election, Mark Zuckerberg announced that he was doing away with Facebook's fact-checking apparatus in the US. With content creators getting paid based on reach, and content spreading wider and faster the more extreme it is, is Facebook the perfect environment for misinformation to flourish?  Guest: Craig Silverman, technology reporter for ProPublica. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

To understand the second Trump administration, you have to understand the internet culture that gave birth to it. Guest: Elle Reeve, CNN correspondent who reported on the 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, VA for Vice News. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Everyone's talking about the price of eggs—so why are they so expensive? And when can we expect—if ever—the price to come back down? Guests:  Dr. Jada Thompson, associate professor at the University of Arkansas Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Federal workers in the U.S. Digital Service resigned in protest over what they viewed as indiscriminate, irresponsible firings coming from the DOGE office. While lawsuits are entering the courts and protests are taking to the streets, will any of this make a difference to the chainsaw-minded leaders of DOGE?  Guest: Ryan Mac, tech reporter at the New York Times and co-author of “Character Limit: How Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter.” Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The crypto industry threw its weight and money behind Donald Trump, in hopes of legitimizing the industry. Before his Inauguration Day was over, Donald Trump was already enriching himself via a memecoin, one of the scammier, least legitimate-looking uses of crypto. Guest: David Yaffe-Bellany, reporter covering cryptocurrency for the New York Times. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As someone whose companies receive billions of dollars from the government, it's worth asking why Elon Musk is so zealous about cutting government spending.  Guest: Max Chafkin, features editor and tech reporter at Bloomberg Businessweek and cohost of the Elon, Inc podcast. Want more What Next TBD? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices