Podcasts about Lee University

What if your church property wasn't a burden—but a blessing to your neighbors? In this episode, Loren talks with John Cleghorn about the growing movement of churches reimagining their buildings and land to address the affordable housing crisis. Drawing from firsthand experience and national trends, John explores how faith communities can embrace a new missional identity rooted in service, hospitality, and justice. Whether you're a pastor, denominational leader, or simply wondering what's next for the American church, this conversation offers both challenge and hope. This episode includes: How churches are transforming unused space into affordable housing The pastoral challenge of helping congregations grieve old models while embracing new vision Why engaging neighbors is essential before development The tension between mission and monetization What it means to be a church after Christendom—and why that might be good news   John Cleghorn became pastor of Caldwell Presbyterian in 2008 after 25 years in banking and journalism. He has served Caldwell as it rebounded from almost closing to become a vibrant, diverse, mission-driven congregation centered on the love and justice of Jesus Christ. His latest book, Building Belonging: The Church's Call to Create Community and House Our Neighbors, springs from his congregation's experience and his national research into the emerging movement of faith-based organizations building affordable housing on their property. Building Belonging blends theology and Bible study with case studies and lessons learned From the movement.  A native of Atlanta, he has lived in Charlotte since 1986 and has served on a wide array of non-profit agency boards in the religious and human services fields at the local and national levels. He is currently a board member of WFAE.  He is married to Kelly, a kindergarten teacher, and has two adult children. He holds a Doctorate in Ministry from Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, a Master of Divinity from Union Presbyterian Seminary and a Bachelor of Arts from Washington and Lee University. His first book, Resurrecting Church: Where Justice and Diversity Meet Radical Welcome and Healing Hope (Fortress Press), came out in 2020.    Mentioned Resources:

CTL Script/ Top Stories of May 16th Publish Date: May 16th   Pre-Roll: From the Ingles Studio Welcome to the Award-Winning Cherokee Tribune Ledger Podcast  Today is Friday, May 16th and Happy Birthday to Pierce Brosnan I’m Peyton Spurlock and here are the stories Cherokee is talking about, presented by Times Journal Appellate court takes up mass voter eligibility challenges Kaitlyn Lawrence Wins Judy Johnson Memorial Scholarship The Circuit in Downtown Woodstock Seeking New Vendor Plus, Leah McGrath from Ingles Markets on grass-fed beef We’ll have all this and more coming up on the Cherokee Tribune-Ledger Podcast, and if you’re looking for Community news, we encourage you to listen and subscribe!  Commercial: MILL ON ETOWAH REV GENERIC_FINAL STORY 1: Appellate court takes up mass voter eligibility challenges A federal appeals court heard arguments Tuesday on whether True the Vote’s mass voter challenges in Georgia in 2020, targeting nearly 365,000 voters, were intended to intimidate minority voters. Fair Fight, a voting rights group, argued the challenges were frivolous and aimed at discouraging voters, particularly Black voters, ahead of key Senate runoffs. True the Vote denied intimidation claims, stating their actions were legitimate. Judges questioned the intent, noting none of the challenges succeeded, while a lower court previously ruled in True the Vote’s favor but criticized their methods as "reckless." STORY 2: Kaitlyn Lawrence Wins Judy Johnson Memorial Scholarship Kaitlyn Lawrence, a 2025 Cherokee High School graduate, has won the Judy Johnson Memorial Scholarship, a $500 award honoring a dedicated CCSD School Nutrition employee. Lawrence, a scholar-athlete and active community member, plans to study biochemistry with a minor in criminal justice at Lee University. She excelled in academics, sports, and extracurriculars, including lacrosse, flag football, drumline, National Honor Society, and her church’s youth group, while also working part-time. STORY 3: The Circuit in Downtown Woodstock Seeking New Vendor The Circuit at Chattahoochee Technical College's Woodstock campus is seeking a new vendor for its café space as Circle of Friends' Circuit Café closes on May 15. Founders Diane and Glenn Keen are consolidating operations at their Hickory Flat location, Flourish Café. Cherokee Office of Economic Development President Heath Tippens praised Circle of Friends' success and invited new coffee vendors to consider launching at The Circuit, a coworking and innovation space for entrepreneurs and the community. The café offers an opportunity for small businesses to grow in a supportive environment. We have opportunities for sponsors to get great engagement on these shows. Call 770.874.3200 for more info.    Break: STORY 4: Woodstock Considering $86.2M Budget The Woodstock City Council is reviewing an $86.2 million proposed budget for fiscal year 2026, a $5 million increase from 2025. The budget prioritizes infrastructure, parks, trails, and public safety, including 12 new firefighter positions and a fire captain training officer. It also includes a 2% cost-of-living raise for employees, a 4% water rate increase, and $27 million for parks projects, with $18.3 million allocated to Little River Park. Key SPLOST projects include road improvements, trail extensions, and public safety vehicle replacements. The council will discuss and vote on the budget in upcoming meetings. STORY 5: Trump Justice Department names new interim U.S attorney Theodore S. Hertzberg has been appointed interim U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Georgia by U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi. Hertzberg, a seasoned prosecutor, has served nearly a decade as an assistant U.S. attorney, handling cases involving violent crime, drug trafficking, and fraud. He previously worked in Savannah and Atlanta, prosecuting gang leaders and other dangerous offenders. A graduate of Amherst College and NYU School of Law, Hertzberg succeeds Richard Moultrie Jr., who served in an acting capacity after Ryan Buchanan’s resignation. Commercial: And now here is Leah McGrath from Ingles Markets on grass fed beef We’ll have closing comments after this.   COMMERCIAL: Ingles Markets 6   SIGN OFF –   Thanks again for hanging out with us on today’s Cherokee Tribune Ledger Podcast. If you enjoy these shows, we encourage you to check out our other offerings, like the Cherokee Tribune Ledger Podcast, the Marietta Daily Journal, or the Community Podcast for Rockdale Newton and Morgan Counties. Read more about all our stories and get other great content at www.tribuneledgernews.com Did you know over 50% of Americans listen to podcasts weekly? Giving you important news about our community and telling great stories are what we do. Make sure you join us for our next episode and be sure to share this podcast on social media with your friends and family. Add us to your Alexa Flash Briefing or your Google Home Briefing and be sure to like, follow, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Produced by the BG Podcast Network Show Sponsors: www.ingles-markets.com Etowah Mill #NewsPodcast #CurrentEvents #TopHeadlines #BreakingNews #PodcastDiscussion #PodcastNews #InDepthAnalysis #NewsAnalysis #PodcastTrending #WorldNews #LocalNews #GlobalNews #PodcastInsights #NewsBrief #PodcastUpdate #NewsRoundup #WeeklyNews #DailyNews #PodcastInterviews #HotTopics #PodcastOpinions #InvestigativeJournalism #BehindTheHeadlines #PodcastMedia #NewsStories #PodcastReports #JournalismMatters #PodcastPerspectives #NewsCommentary #PodcastListeners #NewsPodcastCommunity #NewsSource #PodcastCuration #WorldAffairs #PodcastUpdates #AudioNews #PodcastJournalism #EmergingStories #NewsFlash #PodcastConversations See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

During her term as 20th Poet Laureate of the Commonwealth of Virginia (2020-22), Emerita, the Academy of American Poets awarded Luisa A. Igloria one of twenty-three Poet Laureate Fellowships in 2021, to support a program of public poetry projects. She is the recipient of the Immigrant Writing Series Prize from Black Lawrence Press for Caulbearer (2024), and was one of 2 Co-Winners of the 2019 Crab Orchard Poetry Prize for Maps for Migrants and Ghosts (Southern Illinois University Press, fall 2020). In April 2021, the Writers Union of the Philippines (UMPIL) conferred on her the Gawad Pambansang Alagad ni Balagtas lifetime achievement award in the English poetry category. In 2015, she was the inaugural winner of the Resurgence Prize (UK), the world's first major award for ecopoetry, selected by former UK Poet Laureate Sir Andrew Motion, Alice Oswald, and Jo Shapcott. Former US Poet Laureate Natasha Trethewey selected her chapbook What is Left of Wings, I Ask as the 2018 recipient of the Center for the Book Arts Letterpress Poetry Chapbook Prize. Other works include The Buddha Wonders if She is Having a Mid-Life Crisis (Phoenicia Publishing, Montreal, 2018), Ode to the Heart Smaller than a Pencil Eraser (2014 May Swenson Prize, Utah State University Press), and 10 other books. She is lead editor, along with co-editors Aileen Cassinetto and Jeremy S. Hoffman, of Dear Human at the Edge of Time: Poems on Climate Change in the United States (Paloma Press, September 2023). Her poems are widely published or appearing in national and international anthologies, and print and online literary journals including The Georgia Review, Orion, Shenandoah, Cincinnati Review, The Common, Indiana Review, Crab Orchard Review, Diode, Missouri Review, Rattle, Poetry East, Your Impossible Voice, Poetry, Shanghai Literary Review, Cha, and others. Luisa served as the inaugural Glasgow Visiting Writer in Residence at Washington and Lee University in 2018. Luisa also leads workshops at The Muse Writers Center in Norfolk (and serves on the Muse Board). She is a Louis I. Jaffe Professor and University Professor of English and Creative Writing, and a member of the core faculty of the MFA Creative Writing Program at Old Dominion University, which she directed from 2009-2015. Since 2010, she has been writing (at least) a poem a day. www.luisaigloria.com Social Media: Facebook https://www.facebook.com/VAPoetLaureate2020 Instagram @poetslizard X/Twitter @ThePoetsLizard https://linktr.ee/thepoetslizard

Published to coincide with the 250th anniversary, this sweeping narrative is an astute exploration of thefive critical military events that changed the outcome of the Revolutionary War.About theAuthor:John R. Maass is a staff member of the NationalMuseum of the U.S. Army at Fort Belvoir. He received a BA in history from Washington and Lee University and a PhD in early American history at The Ohio State University. He is the author of several books on U.S. military history, including North Carolina & the French and Indian War (2013); Defending a New Nation, 1783-1811 (2013); The Road to Yorktown (2015); George Washington's Virginia (2017); and The Battle of Guilford Courthouse (2020).For more info on the book click HERE

Austin is a visionary leader in teenage behavioral health and addiction treatment, spending the past 15+ years committed to transforming the lives of teens & their families. He uses the power of faith in the recovery process to help his clients grow into healthy and happy members of their community. He is the founder and CEO of Clearfork Academy, the go-to treatment center in Texas for troubled teens. His dedication to teen mental health makes him a driving thought leader in the industry. He has spoken to parents, community health professionals, educators and teens nationwide—sharing insights on effective treatment methodologies, the importance of mental health awareness and the power of faith in the recovery process. Austin earned a Bachelor of Science in Pastoral Ministry from Lee University in Cleveland, TN, and furthered his education with a Master of Arts in Counseling from The Church of God Theological Seminary. This education laid the foundation for his professional journey in clinical counseling and church ministry.When he's not helping teens or serving his community, he is found spending time with his wife & three kids, playing guitar, and being outdoors.https://clearforkacademy.com/My Kid, My Crisis Book:Austin Davis' My Kid, My Crisis provides a profound exploration into the turbulent journey of families navigating teenage mental health and substance abuse crises. Drawing from his extensive experience, Davis offers a compassionate guide through the trials and triumphs faced by parents and their teens. This book is not just a collection of stories; it's a beacon of hope, shedding light on the silent struggles and providing a roadmap for healing and understanding. Through personal accounts and professional insights, Davis fosters a sense of community, encouraging open dialogue and offering practical advice to those in the midst of their own crisis. My Kid, My Crisis is an essential read for anyone seeking to understand the complexities of teenage mental health and substance abuse, advocating for a world where no family has to navigate these challenges in isolation.https://a.co/d/g7IM4A1Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/i-am-refocused-radio--2671113/support.

Aging and Our Brains PART ONE with Michelle Hecker Davis from LearningRX Mother Nature and Father Time ar: e undefeated! That doesn't mean we have to go quietly into that good night! Nope - we can live intentionally! Supplements - Vitamins - Mindsets - Bio Hacks - Science - Food - Exercise - Sleep - Habits - Relationships - all wrapped up in data, stories, and conversations! Join Clint Powell and his co-hosts to talk about aging from 18 to 80! Who is Michelle Hecker Davis: Michelle is a Board Certified Cognitive Specialist and certified Master Brain Trainer, having received over 150 hours of training in this field before becoming the Director of LearningRx of Chattanooga in 2012, then Owner in 2022. She is from Cleveland, TN and is a graduate of Lee University, obtaining a Bachelor's of Science in 2007. She serves on the Board for the International Association of Cognitive Training and is a graduate of Leadership Chattanooga, class of 2022. Michelle is responsible for the dramatic improvements of more than 600 students within the southeast region, and continues to focus her passion toward providing additional opportunities for struggling and/or lifelong learners at the first Board Certified Cognitive Training Center in Tennessee. She is married with 2 daughters, ages 8 and 13, and spends her free time loving on houseplants, reading, playing games, traveling with friends, and helping to manage her family's barndominium in Chickamauga, GA. === POWERED BY THE VASCULAR INSTITUTE OF CHATTANOOGA: https://vascularinstituteofchattanooga.com/ Sponsored by: Alchemy MedSpa: https://alchemymedspachatt.com/ Optimize U Chattanooga: https://optimizeucenters.com/locations/chattanooga-tennessee/ Please consider leaving us a review on Apple and giving us a share to your friends! This podcast is powered by ZenCast.fm

Reeves heads to Virginia for a college tour. In Part 2, we'll discuss the five private colleges on this tour. Follow Chris as he eats and tours his way through Virginia, where he finds a new friends, new favorite colleges, and the greatest chilidog of his life (he's still thinking about it). University of Richmond (01:20) Hampden-Sydney College (14:13) Sweet Briar College (23:55) Washington and Lee University (30:29) Virginia Military Institute (46:12) - Actually a public school, but fit in this episode best! Music on this episode comes from the Free Music Archive by Lite Saturation. https://freemusicarchive.org/music/lite-saturation/sport-rock-trailer/sport-rock-trailer/ https://freemusicarchive.org/music/lite-saturation/sport-rock-trailer/sport-rock-trailer-short/

Pastoring on Purpose welcomes back Macey Jones. Macey is a junior at Lee University pursuing her degree in Theological and professional studies, with two minors – Christian Ministries and Psychology. Dr. Tim Maness and Dr. Jeff Sargent sit down with Macey to talk about the struggles and opportunities being navigated by young people in our churches today.

Rob West is the host of Faith and Finance Live, heard at 4pm Eastern on 88.9 Moody Radio. He joins Tom and Tabi once a month for Faith Fi CHATT to field financial questions just from listeners in the Tennessee Valley. Today he responds to students graduating from Lee University with questions as they embark on the beginning of their careers. Rob also answers questions from listeners who have questions as they near the end of their careers and are looking toward retirement.Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshow/wmbwSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

About Leslie Leslie is a new medical parent, with a 10-month-old daughter, Evelyn. She grew up in the Cookeville area and has stayed in Tennessee her whole life. Her husband, Cole is an Ohio native and moved down to Tennessee after meeting Leslie at Lee University, in Cleveland, TN. They got married in 2019 and waited to start trying to have kids until their 5th anniversary, when they discovered it wasn't going to be an easy journey for them. They went through multiple miscarriages before finding out they were pregnant with twins in 2023, one of the twins didn't make it past 9 weeks, but Evelyn stayed strong throughout the pregnancy. After 41 weeks of pregnancy, Leslie went into an induction and ended up having an emergency c section, that started their journey into the medical world with caring for Evelyn. It is a walk they didn't anticipate and has taken them by a storm, but one God called them to walk, one step at a time. Related Links By the Brook Early Bird   

Raising Expectations with Pastor Joe Schofield, Stefanie and Dr Craig Thayer, Dr Paul Hall, and Ron Greer With Guests, Charles Lingerfelt Editor of Christian Times Magazine and Paul Antaby, Master Chief from the USS Cole We are delighted to have our friend and beloved Texas Republican Congressional Candidate Charles Lingerfelt with us! God has used Charles in so many ways in changing lives here and globally! He was born and raised in the state of Tennessee, where he graduated from high school and became an alumnus of Lee University. But in 1969, Charles and his family moved to the state of Texas, and has resided here ever since. He has made 29 trips to Iraqi Kurdistan, teaching American English and government. He is currently the editor-in-chief of Christian Times Magazine which is now being read globally around the world in 178 countries. Charles is an expert on so many national and international political situations and is a man of great Christian Faith in the Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. *On a special note Charles will be joined by Alan Abney and his wife Jan from the USS COLE who he interviewed for the International Christian Times Magazine.

In this episode, we go through the big 4 tournaments from early March.  The results are starting to shape the rankings and favorites for both the Men and Women's Championships.  We also got the chance to sit down with Coach Gyscek and Jonathan McEwen from Washington & Lee University.  W&L was the number 1 ranked team in the Fall and Jonathan McEwen has been a top 2 player all year.  The Generals are one of the best teams in the country and are one of the favorites for Nationals this year.  We hope you enjoy the episode!!Support the show

Boaz VanLanen gives a teaching on deliverance at the Victory In Christ Seminar. Broadcast live on Fringe Radio Network from Lee University in Tennessee.Stay tuned for more deliverance teachings from Dennis Miller, Noah Hines and Dennis Andros!FAITHBUCKS.COM

In this episode, Matthew Loar, Director of Fellowships and Student Research at Washington and Lee University, shares his path from studying abroad in Rome to shaping the futures of current W&L students. He talks about how fellowships are transforming undergraduate experiences and why he is so passionate about the application process itself. We discuss Matthew's work with programs such as Summer Research Scholars and Science, Society, and the Arts, and discuss how we at Lifelong Learning plan to introduce elements of these initiatives to our Lifelong Learning audience.

Are you spending time every day with God?In this episode, Jeff, Jeff, and Jay discuss: Learning the perils of debt early.Succeeding in real estate without debt leverage.Living intentionally.Pray first, do second.  Key Takeaways: Grow slowly, invest in portfolios, and work with partners - these are some ways you can continue to grow your business using Biblical principles to stay out of debt.Walk by faith, not by sight.Pick the one or two things you feel God wants you to do, complete those, and then you can pick something else. But pick something and implement that to glorify God. If you're going to give anyway, give before tax and you can give more.  "Start somewhere, even if it's small." —  Jay Fechtel Episode References: Business by the Book by Larry Burkett: amazon.com/Business-Book-Complete-Principles-Workplace/dp/0785287973C12: https://www.joinc12.com/Lead with Prayer by Ryan Skoog, Peter Greer, and Cameron Doolittle: https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Prayer-Spiritual-World-Changing-Leaders-ebook/dp/B0C3ZR4HR5NCF: https://www.ncfgiving.com/ About Jay Fechtel: Jay Fechtel and his wife, Terri, have shared 35 years of marriage and are grateful parents of four children and three grandchildren. Jay is committed to integrating his faith with his professional life, focusing on practicing business as a ministry. He's also highly motivated to care for those who can't care for themselves, innovate in church practices/disciple-making, and advocate for religious and other freedoms. With over 35 years of experience in entrepreneurial business development and ownership, Jay has made significant contributions to the design, construction, real estate, and energy efficiency industries. He began his career as a CPA in the public accounting field before founding a design-build firm that specializes in custom residential and light commercial construction. His firm is renowned for its innovative designs and energy-efficient technologies, earning over 25 national and regional architectural and environmental design awards. Jay has also developed several residential and commercial real estate projects and is the founder and CEO of Olive Tree Energy, which developed the ZeroEnergy heat recovery water heating system. Jay is a graduate of Washington and Lee University and has served on several boards, including the National Christian Foundation Tampa Bay, the Pocket Testament League, and Abe Brown Ministries. Currently, he and Terri serve as leaders of 1 Body Church, part of a church planting and disciple-making movement in the U.S. and overseas. Jay also serves as a board member of The C12 Group, which currently equips over 4,300 Christian business owners and executives globally to build great businesses with the greater purpose of advancing the gospel in the marketplace. Connect with Jay Fechtel:Website: https://thefechtelcompany.com/Website: https://olivetreeenergy.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jay-fechtel-53b471a   Connect with Jeff Thomas: Website: https://www.arkosglobal.com/Podcast: https://www.generousbusinessowner.com/Book: https://www.arkosglobal.com/trading-upEmail: jeff.thomas@arkosglobal.comTwitter: https://twitter.com/ArkosGlobalAdv Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/arkosglobal/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/arkosglobaladvisorsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/arkosglobaladvisors/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLUYpPwkHH7JrP6PrbHeBxw

Richard Brock is an experienced entrepreneur, law firm advisor, legal search consultant, and former practicing lawyer. He has founded several businesses in the legal industry, including two attorney recruiting companies. He has worked with dozens of law firms and corporate legal departments, and hundreds of attorneys across the country. His experience and expertise include talent acquisition, strategic growth initiatives, law firm consulting, lateral attorney placements, and law firm mergers. Brock's companies have received numerous awards and recognition for success and growth, including Inc. 500 and Inc. 5000 awards for the fastest growing companies in America. He is a graduate of the University of Alabama School of Law, and Washington & Lee University. Listen to this informative Sharkpreneur episode with Richard Brock about how to recruit for law firms. Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week's show: - Why law firms row faster by acquiring attorneys with an established client base. - Why most law firms don't hire the talent they actually need. - How a client-first approach prioritizes law firm goals over quick placements. - How successful law firms have the right mix of marketing, outreach, and relationship building. - Why law firms need lateral hiring instead of simply recurring junior attorneys. Connect with Richard: Guest Contact Info LinkedIn Links Mentioned: Onboard Legal   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

(1/2) How has the devil been depicted through history? What are his origins? And why should he be portrayed as beautiful?In the first part of a two part mini-series on Lucifer himself, Anthony and Maddy talk with Professor Michelle Brock of Washington and Lee University, to find out how the devil has been present in peoples' lives; especially in the 17th century with the rise of witch trials.This episode was edited by Tom Delargy. The producer was Freddy Chick. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.  You can take part in our listener survey here.After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal is a History Hit podcast.

#golf #podcast #trending The BSG Podcast is brought to you by Moon Golf. They offer golf equipment, apparel, fittings, re-gripping, and anything else you can think of. Go check out Moon Golf and see why their customer service is so highly rated. www.moongolf.com @moongolfshop Subscribe to the Be.Still Golf channel: / bestillgolf Follow along with Be.Still Golf Here: Instagram - / be.stillgolf Facebook - / be.stillgolf

In this episode, Holly Pickett, professor of English at Washington and Lee University, shares her experience with Shakespeare, from an unconvinced high school student to an early modern drama scholar, and discusses the transformative power of teaching on the playwright. She encourages her students to not just read the text, but to experience it – and talks of ways to bring Shakespeare “to its feet.” With her own research extending beyond the English department and into subjects of history and modern TV, she delves into the enduring value of humanities in an ever-changing world and reflects on how studying Shakespeare can offer insights into the core questions of what makes all of us human.

Episode 114!Joining us in the studio today is Austin Davis.  Austin earned a Bachelor of Science in Pastoral Ministry from Lee University in Cleveland, TN, and furthered his education with a Master of Arts in Counseling from The Church of God Theological Seminary. This education laid the foundation for his professional journey in clinical counseling and church ministry. Austin is now a leader in teenage behavioral health and addiction treatment, spending the past 15+ years committed to transforming the lives of teens & their families and is the founder and CEO of Clearfork Academy, a leading treatment center in Texas for troubled teens.  Teenage mental health problems and addiction are on the rise nationally with over 20% of teens 12-17 years old experiencing this issue.  Today, Austin shares his insights on effective treatment methodologies, the importance of mental health awareness and the power of faith in the recovery process, as he has with parents, community health professionals, educators and teens nationwide. Tune in to learn from Austin on this important topic! =========================================================================Connect with Austin here: Website: https://clearforkacademy.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/clearforkacademy/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clearforkacademy/?hl=enThanks for listening! Eric Sardina Executive Life Coaching Feeling stuck, empty or out-of-sync at work, at home, or in your relationships? As a business and life coach, I help individuals work through these feelings towards authentic lives of meaning and purpose. I also work with organizations to optimize their teams and individual contributors. Interested in working with me or learning more? Connect with me below: Website: https://www.ericsardina.com - book a free, 15-minute strategy session. https://calendly.com/ericsardina/8-session-authentically-you-discovery-call-website-linkFollow me on: Instagram: @theericsardina Facebook: Eric SardinaLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericsardina/ Affiliate: LMNT hydration drink mix: get a free sample pack with your first order by using this link: http://elementallabs.refr.cc/ericsardina

Welcome to Breaking Down Boxes. We have compelling conversations with entrepreneurs in the packaging space. In this episode of Breaking Down Boxes, hosts Jeff Pallini and George Perreira sit down with Mark Jared, Director and CEO of Cumberland Container in Monterey, TN, to explore his unconventional career path and the evolution of his business. From navigating international challenges in China to leading a box plant in Tennessee, Mark's story is a fascinating tale of resilience, innovation, and community.Mark shares his unique perspective on leadership, emphasizing the importance of trust and collaboration, and discusses the strategies that have driven Cumberland Container's growth. From investing in technology to building personalized customer relationships, Mark offers insights into the challenges and opportunities within the independent packaging industry.About MarkGrowing up in the countryside outside of a small town I learned to be fairly self-reliant and after a couple of extensive trips a love for travel. I started mountaineering at 14 with my Dad which has taken me to some pretty amazing places. At 18 I went west to work the wheat harvest before moving to Virginia to attend school at Washington & Lee University. My junior year was three of the best as I had multiple jobs over a 2 year period from construction to sales and made a trip to Mexico to climb the 3 highest peaks. Once back at school I took the opportunity to get selected for an exchange program W&L had with the Chinese University of Hong Kong. That was in 1979 when the US recognized the People's Republic Of China and it became the “new frontier” as few Westerners had traveled there since 1949. As a poor student I could not afford to join a tour but used my majors in history and philosophy and a bit of Chinese language to get a job leading tours to China. Over the next 5 years I lead over 45 trips all over China and also into Southeast Asia, India, Pakistan, the Soviet Union, Japan and others. During that period I also went to grad school and received my Masters in International Management. Not wanting to turn 30 leading tours I got a job with consortium of companies building the largest foreign invested real estate project in Shanghai. After working and managing the Shanghai Centre project for 20 plus years and also working on projects in Korea and Vietnam I went to work for Dubai World responsible for developing new real estate projects in Asia. In 2010 I received a fax from my father to come home and buy the box company he had started in 1969. He claimed I could continue to live in China as the company had a management team but that turned out to be stretch of the truth. In 2013 I moved the family away from their 23 million best friends to middle TN and began to work at Cumberland Container where I had no clue how a box was made. However the company had a very good team of leaders that I recognized I needed to even try to manage the business. After our GM left in 2016 taking a considerable amount of business we formed a management committee to run the business all of which are still at the company. I joined AICC around 2018 and began attending the meetings where I got a great introduction to a lot of new ideas and great people in the industry. I pretty quickly drank the kool-aid to get ahead we needed to have fast and precise equipment to be competitive and grow the business so over the past 5+ years we went on capital investment program buying new FFGs, RDC, Baysek, Speciality Folder Gluer, Partition Assembler, Automatan and Stitcher/Gluer. We also expanded the facility growing to 260K square feet, upgraded our shipping fleet, scrap system and graphics capability making us well positioned for the next 10+ years. Plus I bought 12 acres of property adjacent to the plant for future expansion. Cumberland has a great management group and a very capable workforce of 95...

In this episode of The Defender Podcast, Herbie Newell and Dr. Rick Morton welcome Andy Cook, President and CEO of Promise 686, a ministry dedicated to equipping churches to serve vulnerable children and families. Andy shares his journey of starting Promise 686, rooted in the biblical mandate of Psalm 68:6, and the organization's model, Family Advocacy Ministries (FAM), which helps churches launch sustainable ministries for foster, adoptive, and biological families in crisis. The conversation highlights the importance of collaboration in orphan care, particularly through partnerships like the one between Promise 686 and Lifeline Children Services. Herbie and Andy reflect on their journey to work together, emphasizing value alignment, humility, and the shared vision of seeing families supported and children placed in loving homes.GUESTAndy Cook | President and CEO - Andy began his leadership of Promise686 in 2013 after serving as a founding board member for the previous five years. He attended Washington and Lee University receiving a Bachelor of Art in English, and he received a Master of Arts in Religion from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, with a concentration in Ethics. Before coming to Promise686, Andy served in various leadership roles at Wesleyan School, a K-12 independent Christian school. During his ten years at Wesleyan he was the Director of Development and the Director of Admissions. He and his wife, Martha, have ten children and have adopted both domestically and internationally.HOSTHerbie Newell is the President & Executive Director of Lifeline Children's Services and its ministry arms.EQUIPPING CHURCHES FOR MINISTRY TO VULNERABLE CHILDRENWe're excited to announce that Lifeline Children's Services has teamed up with Promise686 to empower churches to serve vulnerable children and families. Ministry to at-risk kids and families requires faith, commitment, and resources, and we are deeply grateful for every church willing to take on this mission.Through this partnership, Promise686 provides a structured model called Family Advocacy Ministries (FAMs) to guide churches in building and sustaining ministries that make a lasting impact. FAMs equips church volunteers to come alongside foster families, adoptive families, and biological families in crisis, ensuring children find safety and love within their communities.If your church is interested in getting involved, visit LifelineChild.org/FAMLIFELINE CHILDREN'S SERVICESThe mission of Lifeline Children's Services is to equip the Body of Christ to manifest the gospel to vulnerable children. Our vision is for vulnerable children and their communities to be transformed by the gospel and to make disciples. FOLLOW USFacebook, Instagram, TwitterThe Defender Podcast: Subscribe on iTunes | Transistor | SpotifyThe Defender Bible Study: Subscribe on iTunes | Transistor | Spotify

In the first check-in with Lady Topper head coach Greg Collins, Reily Chestnut asks Coach Collins how his team is progressing after beating Lee University 70-48 last week. Along the way, these two discuss the many new kids who will suit up for the Lady Toppers this season after an offseason spent recruiting 9 new faces. Collins also shares how he feels about the talent and experience WKU brings back with guards Alexis Mead, Destiny Salary, Acacia Hayes, and Josie Gilvin. Collins also shares his thoughts on the team's upcoming non-conference schedule that starts at Indiana State this Monday.It's a new season of basketball on the Hill. Be sure to check out new episodes each week catching up with the coaches and players who will rep Big Red on their chest for the 2024-25 season.All podcast episodes are part of the Hilltopper Nation Podcast Network powered by Learfield on the Varsity Network App or wherever you listen to your podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Whether you're just embarking on your artistic journey or have been navigating it for years, dreaming of a profitable art business, here's a little secret—it's absolutely within your reach. As artists, we often hit hurdles on our paths to success, but breaking through them is not just a dream; it's something you can achieve.In the latest episode with Hayley Price from The Art Coaching Club, she and Kellee are discussing the ins and outs of this exciting, challenging, journey. They explore strategies like niching down, mastering email marketing, and the importance of staying true to one's unique artistic style. Through 1:1 coaching, a membership community, a blog, a podcast, and a wealth of free and affordable content, Hayley ensures that every creative finds the help they need at a price within their reach. Her approach is not just about providing solutions but about creating a space where artists can explore their potential and find their path to success.Tune into Part TWO of this interview next week to discuss more about the money mindset with Hayley!About Hayley Price: Hayley Price is a dedicated advocate and mentor for artists at every stage of their careers. With a rich educational background as a Studio Art and Business double major from Washington & Lee University, Hayley possesses a deep understanding of both the creative and commercial challenges artists face in the ever-changing landscape of today's art world. Her journey has been shaped by a commitment to fostering growth, building relationships, and empowering artists to focus on their passion while she tackles the challenges that ultimately take them out of the studio.Check out Hayley's websiteConnect with Hayley on Instagram, Pinterest, TikTok, and YouTube!Don't forget to get on Hayley's newsletter list. What would you do if you knew you could not fail? Rethink the possibilities with your Creative Business in 2024, let's create Big Audacious Dreams together!✨Download my free guide: 100 Ways to Build Your Creative Business TodayFor transcripts, more links mentioned in the episode, and for the full episode show notes

Dr. Steve Hall joined Dr. Tim Maness and Dr. Jeff Sargent at General Assembly 2024 to talk about the importance of ministers and pastors taking care of themselves and being proactive in the preventative maintenance of their mental and emotional health. Dr. Hall has nearly 40 years of ministry experience and is currently part of the School of Theology & Ministry faculty at Lee University. He and his wife also serve as the executive directors of Ministry Oasis, a soul health ministry for ministers and their spouses.

Olivia shares her incredible journey from Washington and Lee University, a small liberal arts college, to securing an investment banking internship at Houlihan Lokey in New York.

On the October 14 edition of the Music History Today podcast, Pearl Jam breaks a record, JoJo finally gets to release a record, & Pulp Fiction breathes life into older music. Also, happy birthday to Usher. For more music history, subscribe to my Spotify Channel or subscribe to the audio version of my music history podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts from ALL MUSIC HISTORY TODAY PODCAST NETWORK LINKS - https://allmylinks.com/musichistorytoday On this date: * In 1906, legendary entertainer and civil rights activist Paul Robeson was not allowed to play for the Rutgers University football team because their opponents that day, Washington and Lee University, refused to play against a team that had a black person on it. * In 1939, music company BMI started operations. * In 1954, the musical movie White Christmas premiered. * In 1964, Charlie Watts of the Rolling Stones married his wife Shirley Shepherd. * In 1966, Grace Slick first appeared with Jefferson Airplane. * In 1968, the Beatles finished work on the White Album. * In 1971, John Lennon & Yoko Ono appeared on the Dick Cavett Show. * In 1994, the movie Pulp Fiction premiered. From a musical standpoint, the movie helped revive interest in Dick Dale's music (he did the song Misirlou: the song with the crazy surf guitar & the screaming in the beginning of it). It also sparked interest in the early Kool & the Gang funk classic Jungle Boogie & Link Wray's classic Rumble. * In 2000, Pearl Jam broke a record on Billboard's albums chart when 5 of their released live albums from their European tour hit the chart in the same week. * In 2006, Rascal Flatts' opening act Eric Church was kicked off the tour after he repeatedly played over his allotted opening slot time. Apparently, that was the last straw with Rascal Flatts. Eric's replacement was a hotshot country newcomer at the time: Taylor Swift. * In 2006, singer Melina Leon married her husband Ruy Fernando Delgado. * In 2014, singer Kesha started her lawsuit against producer Dr. Luke in order to be released from her contract with him. * In 2017, country singer Kacey Musgraves married singer-songwriter Ruston Kelly. * In 2018, Steppenwolf performed in Baxter Springs, Kansas, which was their final show. * In 2023, Madonna started her Celebration tour, after having to delay it to deal with a bacterial infection which sent her to the hospital. In the world of classical music: * In 1924, the opera Die Gluckliche Hand premiered. * In 1956, the overture Robert Browning by Charles Ives premiered. In the world of theater: * In 1930, the Gershwin musical Girl Crazy premiered on Broadway & made stars out of Ginger Rogers & especially Ethel Merman. * In 1961, the Frank Loesser musical How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying premiered on Broadway. In award ceremonies that were held on this date: * In 1970, Merle Haggard won at the Country Music Association awards. * In 1974, Charlie Rich won at the Country Music Association awards. * In 1985, Ricky Skaggs won at the Country Music Association awards. In 2009, opera superstar Placido Domingo received the first Birgit Nilsson million dollar prize. In 2020, Post Malone & Billie Eilish were the big winners at the Billboard Music Awards. In 2022, Jefferson Airplane received a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/musichistorytodaypodcast/support

In this episode, Melissa Kerin, Professor of Art History at Washington and Lee University and Director of the Roger Mudd Center for Ethics, discusses this year's theme for the Mudd Center: “How We Live and Die.” As a Buddhist art historian, she presents a unique perspective on the meaning of life and death and the moral questions that shape the human condition.  We discuss the history of the Mudd Center, the importance of storytelling for all of us as we process the reality of death and the way in which Buddhism addresses finality, particularly through its sacred artistic tradition. We also talk about Professor Kerin's own journey from appreciating the social power of the arts through theater to beholding the shrines that influence the cultural world of small villages in the Himalayas.

Truth Be Told with Booker Scott – America is in desperate need of revival. In February 2023, a spontaneous movement at Lee University in Tennessee ignited days of continuous worship. Many feel the nation's healing won't come through elections or policies but through a spiritual awakening. Chris Widener, author of *The Coming American Revival*, shares his mission and belief that America's future depends on embracing its faith-filled past.

One of the great divides in American judicial scholarship is between legal scholars who take the justices at their word and assume that those words define the law and political scientists who dismiss all judicial arguments as smokescreens for partisan bias or wider political forces. Today's guest has written a book that bridges that divide.  In Rot and Revival: The History of Constitutional Law in American Political Development (U California Press, 2024), Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis uses methods from history, law, and political science to theorize and document how politics make American constitutional law and how the courts affect the path of partisan politics. Understanding American constitutional law means looking at the relationship among dominant political coalitions, social movements, and the evolution of constitutional law as prescribed by judges. For Kreis, constitutional doctrine does not exist in a philosophical vacuum – it is a “distillation of partisan politics.” Rejecting the idea that the Constitution's significance and interpretation can be divorced from contemporary political realities, Kreis uses tools from law, history, and American political development to explain how American constitutional law reflects the ideological commitments of dominant political coalitions, the consequences of major public policy choices, and the influences of intervening social movements. For Kreis, constitutional law is “best understood through the diachronic lens of American Political Development (APD) and the concept of political time. Kreis concludes that the courts have never been—and cannot be—institutions lying outside the currents of national politics. Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis is assistant professor at Georgia State University College of Law where he teaches constitutional law and works at the intersection of law and American Political Development. He earned his undergraduate and law degrees at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Washington & Lee University, respectively, and his PhD from the School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Georgia. Mentioned: President Lyndon B. Johnson's March 15, 1965 speech before Congress on voting rights Keith E. Whittington's Political Foundations of Judicial Supremacy and other works Gerald Rosenberg's The Hollow Hope: Can Courts Bring About Social Change?  Correction: Justices Sotomayor and Kagan were nominated by President Obama and Justice Jackson was nominated by President Biden. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

One of the great divides in American judicial scholarship is between legal scholars who take the justices at their word and assume that those words define the law and political scientists who dismiss all judicial arguments as smokescreens for partisan bias or wider political forces. Today's guest has written a book that bridges that divide.  In Rot and Revival: The History of Constitutional Law in American Political Development (U California Press, 2024), Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis uses methods from history, law, and political science to theorize and document how politics make American constitutional law and how the courts affect the path of partisan politics. Understanding American constitutional law means looking at the relationship among dominant political coalitions, social movements, and the evolution of constitutional law as prescribed by judges. For Kreis, constitutional doctrine does not exist in a philosophical vacuum – it is a “distillation of partisan politics.” Rejecting the idea that the Constitution's significance and interpretation can be divorced from contemporary political realities, Kreis uses tools from law, history, and American political development to explain how American constitutional law reflects the ideological commitments of dominant political coalitions, the consequences of major public policy choices, and the influences of intervening social movements. For Kreis, constitutional law is “best understood through the diachronic lens of American Political Development (APD) and the concept of political time. Kreis concludes that the courts have never been—and cannot be—institutions lying outside the currents of national politics. Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis is assistant professor at Georgia State University College of Law where he teaches constitutional law and works at the intersection of law and American Political Development. He earned his undergraduate and law degrees at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Washington & Lee University, respectively, and his PhD from the School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Georgia. Mentioned: President Lyndon B. Johnson's March 15, 1965 speech before Congress on voting rights Keith E. Whittington's Political Foundations of Judicial Supremacy and other works Gerald Rosenberg's The Hollow Hope: Can Courts Bring About Social Change?  Correction: Justices Sotomayor and Kagan were nominated by President Obama and Justice Jackson was nominated by President Biden. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history

One of the great divides in American judicial scholarship is between legal scholars who take the justices at their word and assume that those words define the law and political scientists who dismiss all judicial arguments as smokescreens for partisan bias or wider political forces. Today's guest has written a book that bridges that divide.  In Rot and Revival: The History of Constitutional Law in American Political Development (U California Press, 2024), Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis uses methods from history, law, and political science to theorize and document how politics make American constitutional law and how the courts affect the path of partisan politics. Understanding American constitutional law means looking at the relationship among dominant political coalitions, social movements, and the evolution of constitutional law as prescribed by judges. For Kreis, constitutional doctrine does not exist in a philosophical vacuum – it is a “distillation of partisan politics.” Rejecting the idea that the Constitution's significance and interpretation can be divorced from contemporary political realities, Kreis uses tools from law, history, and American political development to explain how American constitutional law reflects the ideological commitments of dominant political coalitions, the consequences of major public policy choices, and the influences of intervening social movements. For Kreis, constitutional law is “best understood through the diachronic lens of American Political Development (APD) and the concept of political time. Kreis concludes that the courts have never been—and cannot be—institutions lying outside the currents of national politics. Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis is assistant professor at Georgia State University College of Law where he teaches constitutional law and works at the intersection of law and American Political Development. He earned his undergraduate and law degrees at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Washington & Lee University, respectively, and his PhD from the School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Georgia. Mentioned: President Lyndon B. Johnson's March 15, 1965 speech before Congress on voting rights Keith E. Whittington's Political Foundations of Judicial Supremacy and other works Gerald Rosenberg's The Hollow Hope: Can Courts Bring About Social Change?  Correction: Justices Sotomayor and Kagan were nominated by President Obama and Justice Jackson was nominated by President Biden. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/political-science

One of the great divides in American judicial scholarship is between legal scholars who take the justices at their word and assume that those words define the law and political scientists who dismiss all judicial arguments as smokescreens for partisan bias or wider political forces. Today's guest has written a book that bridges that divide.  In Rot and Revival: The History of Constitutional Law in American Political Development (U California Press, 2024), Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis uses methods from history, law, and political science to theorize and document how politics make American constitutional law and how the courts affect the path of partisan politics. Understanding American constitutional law means looking at the relationship among dominant political coalitions, social movements, and the evolution of constitutional law as prescribed by judges. For Kreis, constitutional doctrine does not exist in a philosophical vacuum – it is a “distillation of partisan politics.” Rejecting the idea that the Constitution's significance and interpretation can be divorced from contemporary political realities, Kreis uses tools from law, history, and American political development to explain how American constitutional law reflects the ideological commitments of dominant political coalitions, the consequences of major public policy choices, and the influences of intervening social movements. For Kreis, constitutional law is “best understood through the diachronic lens of American Political Development (APD) and the concept of political time. Kreis concludes that the courts have never been—and cannot be—institutions lying outside the currents of national politics. Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis is assistant professor at Georgia State University College of Law where he teaches constitutional law and works at the intersection of law and American Political Development. He earned his undergraduate and law degrees at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Washington & Lee University, respectively, and his PhD from the School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Georgia. Mentioned: President Lyndon B. Johnson's March 15, 1965 speech before Congress on voting rights Keith E. Whittington's Political Foundations of Judicial Supremacy and other works Gerald Rosenberg's The Hollow Hope: Can Courts Bring About Social Change?  Correction: Justices Sotomayor and Kagan were nominated by President Obama and Justice Jackson was nominated by President Biden. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/intellectual-history

One of the great divides in American judicial scholarship is between legal scholars who take the justices at their word and assume that those words define the law and political scientists who dismiss all judicial arguments as smokescreens for partisan bias or wider political forces. Today's guest has written a book that bridges that divide.  In Rot and Revival: The History of Constitutional Law in American Political Development (U California Press, 2024), Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis uses methods from history, law, and political science to theorize and document how politics make American constitutional law and how the courts affect the path of partisan politics. Understanding American constitutional law means looking at the relationship among dominant political coalitions, social movements, and the evolution of constitutional law as prescribed by judges. For Kreis, constitutional doctrine does not exist in a philosophical vacuum – it is a “distillation of partisan politics.” Rejecting the idea that the Constitution's significance and interpretation can be divorced from contemporary political realities, Kreis uses tools from law, history, and American political development to explain how American constitutional law reflects the ideological commitments of dominant political coalitions, the consequences of major public policy choices, and the influences of intervening social movements. For Kreis, constitutional law is “best understood through the diachronic lens of American Political Development (APD) and the concept of political time. Kreis concludes that the courts have never been—and cannot be—institutions lying outside the currents of national politics. Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis is assistant professor at Georgia State University College of Law where he teaches constitutional law and works at the intersection of law and American Political Development. He earned his undergraduate and law degrees at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Washington & Lee University, respectively, and his PhD from the School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Georgia. Mentioned: President Lyndon B. Johnson's March 15, 1965 speech before Congress on voting rights Keith E. Whittington's Political Foundations of Judicial Supremacy and other works Gerald Rosenberg's The Hollow Hope: Can Courts Bring About Social Change?  Correction: Justices Sotomayor and Kagan were nominated by President Obama and Justice Jackson was nominated by President Biden. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

One of the great divides in American judicial scholarship is between legal scholars who take the justices at their word and assume that those words define the law and political scientists who dismiss all judicial arguments as smokescreens for partisan bias or wider political forces. Today's guest has written a book that bridges that divide.  In Rot and Revival: The History of Constitutional Law in American Political Development (U California Press, 2024), Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis uses methods from history, law, and political science to theorize and document how politics make American constitutional law and how the courts affect the path of partisan politics. Understanding American constitutional law means looking at the relationship among dominant political coalitions, social movements, and the evolution of constitutional law as prescribed by judges. For Kreis, constitutional doctrine does not exist in a philosophical vacuum – it is a “distillation of partisan politics.” Rejecting the idea that the Constitution's significance and interpretation can be divorced from contemporary political realities, Kreis uses tools from law, history, and American political development to explain how American constitutional law reflects the ideological commitments of dominant political coalitions, the consequences of major public policy choices, and the influences of intervening social movements. For Kreis, constitutional law is “best understood through the diachronic lens of American Political Development (APD) and the concept of political time. Kreis concludes that the courts have never been—and cannot be—institutions lying outside the currents of national politics. Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis is assistant professor at Georgia State University College of Law where he teaches constitutional law and works at the intersection of law and American Political Development. He earned his undergraduate and law degrees at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Washington & Lee University, respectively, and his PhD from the School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Georgia. Mentioned: President Lyndon B. Johnson's March 15, 1965 speech before Congress on voting rights Keith E. Whittington's Political Foundations of Judicial Supremacy and other works Gerald Rosenberg's The Hollow Hope: Can Courts Bring About Social Change?  Correction: Justices Sotomayor and Kagan were nominated by President Obama and Justice Jackson was nominated by President Biden. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/public-policy

One of the great divides in American judicial scholarship is between legal scholars who take the justices at their word and assume that those words define the law and political scientists who dismiss all judicial arguments as smokescreens for partisan bias or wider political forces. Today's guest has written a book that bridges that divide.  In Rot and Revival: The History of Constitutional Law in American Political Development (U California Press, 2024), Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis uses methods from history, law, and political science to theorize and document how politics make American constitutional law and how the courts affect the path of partisan politics. Understanding American constitutional law means looking at the relationship among dominant political coalitions, social movements, and the evolution of constitutional law as prescribed by judges. For Kreis, constitutional doctrine does not exist in a philosophical vacuum – it is a “distillation of partisan politics.” Rejecting the idea that the Constitution's significance and interpretation can be divorced from contemporary political realities, Kreis uses tools from law, history, and American political development to explain how American constitutional law reflects the ideological commitments of dominant political coalitions, the consequences of major public policy choices, and the influences of intervening social movements. For Kreis, constitutional law is “best understood through the diachronic lens of American Political Development (APD) and the concept of political time. Kreis concludes that the courts have never been—and cannot be—institutions lying outside the currents of national politics. Dr. Anthony Michael Kreis is assistant professor at Georgia State University College of Law where he teaches constitutional law and works at the intersection of law and American Political Development. He earned his undergraduate and law degrees at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Washington & Lee University, respectively, and his PhD from the School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Georgia. Mentioned: President Lyndon B. Johnson's March 15, 1965 speech before Congress on voting rights Keith E. Whittington's Political Foundations of Judicial Supremacy and other works Gerald Rosenberg's The Hollow Hope: Can Courts Bring About Social Change?  Correction: Justices Sotomayor and Kagan were nominated by President Obama and Justice Jackson was nominated by President Biden. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/law

The mental health of our teenage population is crucial to the well-being and future of our nation. Today, I'm here to provide a status report on the state of this mission. According to the Department of Health and Human Services Office of Population Affairs, while many adolescents experience positive mental health, an estimated 49.5 percent of adolescents have had a mental health disorder at some point in their lives. Promoting positive mental health can prevent some of these problems. Austin Davis is a leader in teenage behavioral health and addiction treatment, dedicating over 15 years to transforming the lives of teens and their families. He uses the power of faith in the recovery process to help his clients become healthy and happy members of their community. Austin is the founder and CEO of Clearfork Academy, a prominent treatment center in Texas for troubled teens. His commitment to teen mental health makes him a leading figure in the industry. He has spoken to parents, community health professionals, educators, and teens nationwide, sharing insights on effective treatment methodologies, the importance of mental health awareness, and the power of faith in the recovery process. Austin earned a Bachelor of Science in Pastoral Ministry from Lee University in Cleveland, TN, and furthered his education with a Master of Arts in Counseling from The Church of God Theological Seminary. This education laid the foundation for his professional journey in clinical counseling and church ministry. When he's not helping teens or serving his community, he spends time with his wife and three kids, plays guitar, and enjoys the outdoors.   For more information: https://clearforkacademy.com/

Pages of Wonder~ A Magical Journey with Seven Children's Authors The show will feature January Liddell, Catherine Stillwell, Gin Yu, Katerina Pappas, Charles Davis, Morgan Kawakami and Christine Morkert. They will each be discussing their books. Below are their bios and information on their books. January Liddell - A proud UC Berkeley alumna, January balances her roles as a devoted wife, mother, author, and finance professional while maintaining an active, health-centric lifestyle. She continuously adapts to industry demands, investing in personal growth and inspiring those around her. January's mission permeates every aspect of her life, making her an invaluable asset to her agency and clients. Alina the Super Saver https://amzn.to/3Al5Wy Catherine Stillwell - Catherine Stillwell has been a pet owner and advocate for over five decades. “Paulie Finds His Forever Home” is a true story based on Beloved Paulie's adoption. On 7/8/24, she adopted a two-year-old terrier mix named Brutus. More info on the book is on her website, www.senior-dogs-rock.com. Paulie Finds His Forever Home https://amzn.to/4fJxoX2 Gin Yu - Gin Yu was Born in Taiwan, raised in Brazil and currently lives in Los Angeles. Her Journey defines her diverse identity. With a passion for telling stories, Gin balances economic acumen and creative passion as a TV and Film Producer and Author. Why Am I Here? https://amzn.to/46KgQde Katerina Pappas - Katerina Pappas (LadyMoon) was born in Philadelphia and raised in Greece. Her journey in public service started at the David A Clarke School of Law, followed by the Institute for Integrative Nutrition and Yog Farm Ithaca. After many years of collecting life experiences, she is infusing all she has learned into her first true love, creative writing, and singing. Flow, Beena, Flow https://amzn.to/3YGo67Q Charles Davis - Charles Davis is a U.S. Army veteran, advocates for veterans and children's welfare. He holds a degree from Keystone College and currently works with Veterans Affairs. In 2023, he launched "The Adventures of Leo the Border Collie From PA," a children's book series promoting morals, adventure, fun, and safety. The Adventures of Leo the Border Collie From PA (Not including a link to the book we are working on - It will be released on 8/31) Morgan Kawakami - Morgan Kawakami is wife to Stephen and mother to 4 incredible children- Willow, Milo,Rio and Margo. She has a BA in English Education from Lee University and feels called to help others through her writing. She has launched several endeavors to minister to teenage girls and young mothers, and now, with "I Have Something Extra," families who have kiddos with Down Syndrome. She and her family live in Southeast Tennessee. - I Have Something Extra  https://amzn.to/46L03Xx Video Version: https://www.youtube.com/live/-oQk9_N_4C0?si=FewAs89rfOXdCXtF Call in with a comment or Chat with Teresa during Live Show with Video Stream: Call 646-558-8656 ID: 8836953587 press #.  To Ask a Question press *9 to raise your hand. or write a question on YouTube during Show Learn more about Teresa here: https://www.webebookspublishing.com    http://authenticendeavorspublishing.com/

On today's show, we chat with Jasmine Brady! Born into a rich musical lineage that influenced her own trajectory from an early age, Jasmine Christmas Brady is the daughter of beloved Gospel songstress Candy Hemphill Christmas; the granddaughter of Southern Gospel pioneers Joel and LaBreeska Hemphill; and the great-niece of genre icons Howard and Vestal Goodman of The Happy Goodmans. Brady appeared in various Gaither Homecoming and Homecoming Kids videos, and she went on to sing with Lee University's world-renowned Voices of Lee ensemble. As a solo artist, her recordings include 2021's Shalom and 2022's Come Alive.   Brady spent a decade on staff at The Bridge—a multi-faceted ministry founded by her mother to serve the needs of Nashville's homeless and underprivileged—and today she is the worship pastor at Regeneration Nashville, the congregation led by her father, Pastor Kent Christmas. Along with her music ministry, Brady speaks about the faithfulness of God at events around the country and hosts a Bible discussion podcast, Wholly Holy. She and her husband, JonMichael, live in Nashville with their son, Cooper, and daughters Adele and Mavis Bleue. Her latest project, ‘Lover of My Soul', is out now! jasminebrady.com @jasminecbrady christianmusicguys.com @christianmusicguys

On this Back to School Sunday, we're joined by Dr. Justin Walker from Lee University as he reads from Proverbs 8 and explains how/why we should learn from Lady Wisdom.

In this episode of 'The Biggest Table,' I enjoy a rich conversation with author Lore Wilbert about her latest book, 'The Understory.' The discussion delves into themes of nature, grief, and presence, as Lore shares her personal journey of finding comfort and healing in the forest. She elucidates how the forest's regenerative processes paralleled her own experiences with faith and personal hardship. The conversation highlights the importance of being present, even in moments of pain, and how moving forward in life doesn't always mean solving everything at once. Lore also reflects on the significance of community and the role of the table in fostering honest and deep conversations. The episode concludes with insights into Lore's upcoming move and looking forward to an unknown future with hope rooted in faith.Lore has written three books, the award winning Handle With Care, as well as A Curious Faith and The Understory. She has a Masters in Theology, Spiritual Formation and Leadership from Friends University and a Bachelors in English from Lee University. Her work has been published in many national publications as well as in several anthologies. She and her husband live on the edge of a river flowing from the Adirondacks in upstate New York with their two pups, Harper and Rilke. When she's not writing, she likes to kayak, be in the forest, make art with paper, and garden.Connect with Lore:lorewilbert.comInstagram: @lorewilbertThis episode of the Biggest Table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose Coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. For our listeners, Wild Goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one time order using the code TABLE at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wildgoosecoffee.com.  Also, join me at Theology Beer Camp October 17-19 in Denver, CO. Theology Beer Camp is a unique three-day conference that brings together of theology nerds and craft beer for a blend of intellectual engagement, community building, and fun. And because I am one of the Godpods at the conference, you as a listener can receive $50 off your ticket by using the code BIGGESTTABLE4CAMP (all caps, no spaces). I hope to see you there.

Being a life-long blind person I have never served in the military and thus only understand the military way of life vicariously. There is reading about it, of course and there is talking to military people about their lifestyle. Today you get to hear a conversation not only about military life, specifically the army world, as it were, from a 20-year career soldier, Chase Spears who recently retired from the military as a major in the army. Chase grew up always interested in the news and what was going on in the world around him. He attended college, both undergraduate studies and later graduate work at universities in Tennessee. Along the way an army recruiting officer persuaded him to join the army. By that time, he was well married to a woman who, surprising to him, supported his decision to leave college and join the army. Chase's telling of this story is wonderful to hear. As you will see, he is quite the storyteller.   He and I talk a great deal about the world of a soldier, and he puts a lot of things into perspective. For those of you who have served in the military much of what you hear may not be totally new. However, since Chase served in public affairs/relations duties throughout most of his army career, you may find his observations interest. Chase and I had a good free-flowing and informative conversation. I personally came away fascinated and look forward to talking with Chase again in the future. A few months ago, Mr. Spears retired and entered into a doctoral program at Kansas State University where he is conducting research concerning how military life impacts the citizenship of those who serve. You will get to hear a bit about what he is finding.   About the Guest:   U.S. Army Major (Ret.) Chase Spears is first and foremost a Christian, Husband, and Father to five children who help to keep him and his wife young at heart. Having grown up with a passion for news and policy, Chase spent 20 years in the Army as a public affairs officer, trying to be part of a bridge between the military and the public. He merged that work with a passion for writing to become one of the Army's most published public affairs officers, often to resistance from inside the military. Chase continues that journey now as a doctoral candidate at Kansas State University, where his dissertation research explores how military life impacts the citizenship of those who serve. His other writings focus on topics including civil-military dynamics, communication ethics, and the political realities of military operations.   Ways to connect with Chase:   LinkedIn/X/Substack/Youtube: @drchasespears www.chasespears.com   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi there and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. And we have a I think really interesting show today are interesting episode we get to chat with major retired Chase Spears. I've been saying ret all morning because he's got Rhett in parentheses. And I didn't even think about it being not a name but retired. But anyway, that's me. Anyway, he has been involved in a lot of writing in and out of the military. He was a major military person for 20 years. He's now in a doctoral candidate program, Kennedy C candidacy program. And my gosh, there's a lot there, but we'll get to it also. Major Rhett major Chase spears. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Chase Spears ** 02:13 just thrilled to be with you, Michael. Thanks for having me. Now   Michael Hingson ** 02:17 that now that we've abused you with Rhett, but that's okay.   Chase Spears ** 02:20 I think God worse. Well, there   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 you are. And by your friends, I bet. So that's what really makes them more fun. But we're but I really am grateful that you were willing to come on and spend some time with us. Why don't we start I love to, to start this way to give people a chance to get to know you. Why don't you tell us some about the early Chase spheres and growing up and all that stuff?   Chase Spears ** 02:44 Well, it's yeah, it's been quite a journey. I grew up in the southeast us My family was out of Florida. And when I was a teenager, we ended up moving we went out to Texas, which was really just kind of a an entire change of culture for us. If you can imagine going from the kind of urban parts of Florida that are really highly populated a lot of traffic, a lot of tourism, a lot of industry. And we went up to North Central Texas in my teen years. And if you can imagine going from from that, you know, Florida to a town of about 9000 people it was a an oil and agricultural cattle town, and Graham, Texas and it was really kind of a culture shock at first, but turned into some of the best and most formative years of my life where I I really learned the value of hard work working on the fields with my dad really got to kind of connect with nature and just taking some gorgeous sunsets in the evenings out working in the fields enjoying the views of the wildlife Hall. I was out working. But one thing that I did learn from hard manual labor, was it made sure that I kept on track for college. And so I ended up going to Lee University in Cleveland, Tennessee in 1998. Right after I graduated from high school, I was homeschooled and met my Hi my sweetie there, Laurie. We were married by senior year we decided neither one of us we wanted to graduate and leave the other one behind. So we got married start a family pretty young afterwards. Went on to the University of Tennessee at Knoxville afterwards because I thought, hey, I want to work in journalism. And it'd be great to have a master's degree in journalism to prove my commitment to the field make people take me seriously. And it was during that time that I ran into an army recruiter while I was working my part time job at a law firm. I was working at the courthouse one day filing paperwork. And this gentleman and I just struck up a conversation in an elevator he was there in his full dress uniform was very impressive to me as a civilian at the time. And so I started asking him questions about what he did. In what army life was like just trying to be friendly, conversational, I was genuinely curious, though I was not looking for a military career. Well, as a good recruiter does, he managed to coax a phone number out of me. And seven months later there I am raising my right hand, swearing into the army in Knoxville, Tennessee. And so we were in the army for 20 years, we moved to several different parts of the nation, we've landed in northeastern Kansas, just on the outskirts of the Greater Kansas City, Missouri area. And now we're kind of starting a new phase of life after the army enjoying being kind of planted Gayndah. Watch our kids grow in a smaller community. And we're excited about what's next. So   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 what is the postdoc? Where are the doctoral degree in, that you're seeking.   Chase Spears ** 05:47 So I am in a program entitled leadership communication. But I'm kind of a misplaced public policy scholars what I've learned, but the faculty there have been so wonderfully gracious to me, and I've been very supportive of my research agenda. So I'm a career communicator. In the army, I was a public affairs officer. So everything I did was about stuff like this. I didn't community engagement, I did interviews, I was did social media strategy, I was part of the bridge that the military tries to build between it and the public, which is incredibly important in our form of governance. And so I love all things communication. And I also love team leadership, small organizational leadership, I had the chance to, to lead teams, I had the chance to lead a company while I was in the army, so fell in love with that. So when I saw a degree program that merged both of those, you know, they had me at hello, I was a sucker from the get go when I saw the marketing. So I applied and they very kindly accepted me. So I've been studying leadership communication, but my research agenda is actually more in the policy realm. My dissertation work is studying how did we come to this concept that the military isn't a political and air quotes institution, when it is funded by the government when it is commanded by elected leadership? When when we exert our national will, on other nations with it there absolutely political connotations to all of that. And And yet, we kind of say the opposite. So I was curious, I was like, this would be something fun to explore, how did we How did we get to where we believe this in spite of what we do? And so that's what my research Jind agenda is all about. And I'm having a lot of fun writing.   Michael Hingson ** 07:37 Well, and I guess we could go right to why well, so why do you think the reason is that we are not a political but we say we are? Oh, are you still researching it to the point where you're not ready to answer that yet? Well, I   Chase Spears ** 07:57 have, I have some theories and what I believe are pretty educated guesses. I'm trying to make sure that I don't bore your audience going too deep in the weeds on this. It's really kind of comes out of the Second World War. When you look at the history of the United States. Traditionally, we are a nation, our ancestors were part of a nation that were really cautious about the idea of having large standing military forces during peacetime. Because there had been this historical observance over hundreds of years, particularly in Europe, that large forces during peacetime ended up causing problems for society and the nations that bred large armies inevitably found ways to use them, that might not always be to the benefit of the populace. So we come out of the Second World War, and the nation has decided we're going to become the global military superpower, we didn't want to be caught off guard again, like we were for what Germany had done in the years after the First World War. And we also have a rising Russia, we need to counter that. So we decided as a nation, yeah, we will become a global, permanent, large, highly industrialized, highly institutionalized force. Well, how do you gain public support for that when the public has traditionally for hundreds of years been very, very suspect of that and very much against it? Well, Samuel, in walk Samuel Huntington, a brilliant political scientist who writes the book, the soldier in the state, and in it he proposed a theory of military supervision in which officers would abstained from voting and then over time that grew legs into Okay, well, now we're just not involved in politics and then in time that grew legs into where a political, but if you go around the force and ask most people what that means, if you ask them to define that word, few would actually be able to define it. It's one of those kind of discursive terms that we've come up with kind of like for the public good. Well, what is for the public good? Can you actually define that, and it's largely often in the eyes of the beholder. So that that's where I believe it came from, I'm still doing quite a bit of work and reading in that. But historically, it's very fascinating to see where we've come and just 70 years on that topic. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:25 And also, we're in a phase of all of that, where it seems to be at least that it's changing and morphing again, I mean, with what's happened in the last seven years in this country, and the, the lack of desire for discourse, the the desire on some people's parts to really involve the military and a lot of things. It seems like we're possibly changing again, or perhaps even strengthening the military in some way. And I'm not sure what that is.   Chase Spears ** 11:04 We there's really kind of been somewhat of a public backlash, the last, I'd say, five to 10 years, we saw an increasing comfort with military members publicly advocating for political policy for political parties, which is absolutely within their constitutional right to do, George Washington himself said, we did not lay aside the citizen to assume the soldier. But again, that that discourse coming out of the Second World War, really kind of conditions the American public to think that when you're in the military, you do give up your rights to expression that you do give up your rights to citizen agency, and, and, and meaningful involvement in civic processes. And while we do rightly give up some expressive rights, and that is captured and codified in military regulations, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, there's some legitimacy to that argument. But I would say, you know, if you're, if you're holding a ruler in your hand, the regulations kind of restrict us somewhere between the two and three inch mark on the ruler, whereas the perception that's just kind of come out of the repetition of these terms and ideas is more that we're up around the nine or 10 inch mark on the ruler, if that makes any sense for you. So we we've seen in the last few years, more military people being willing to get involved politically, and there has been somewhat of a backlash to it. And therein is the problem. You if you're going to hold to a belief to a doctrine to a discursive claim, then you have to match it. And the military is really kind of at a point right now they have a decision to make, are we going to hold on to this discourse to this idea? Or are we going to acknowledge that? Well, the regulations are much less restrictive than what people have been led to believe? It's it's a tough spot to be there's not a perfect answer, to help the institution requires cracking down on constitutional freedoms. And well, what is the institution there to serve? So it's a very sticky issue?   Michael Hingson ** 13:11 Well, it does seem to me that in no way, because the person becomes a soldier. And even in their oaths, do they give up the right to be a citizen of the country? So I'm with George Washington?   Chase Spears ** 13:26 Oh, absolutely. No, I am with with George Washington himself, you know, the greatest American? And I think we would, it's a, it's a good reminder of the importance of knowing our history and knowing where we came from. It's in my interviews with military members on this topic. In my research, I'm finding that that like me, most of them were just kind of told these things verbally. They were never pointed to the actual rules. They were never actually pointed to the actual laws. I only know the regulations because I have a personal fascination on the topic. And I went and looked them up. But no one ever told me where to find them. That was research on my own team and figure out where do I look for this. So it's, we really need to do better, nationally, to know our history and know where we came from.   Michael Hingson ** 14:14 We do have a really interesting paradox in the world, because we've gotten in the last two government administrations, to different views of not only how to govern, but to a degree how the military needs to be a part of it, and that's gonna not be very helpful to things either.   Chase Spears ** 14:34 Absolutely. The the military at the end of the day is controlled by the Civilian governance. Now. I'll acknowledge that General Mark Milley didn't really seem to think so and there have been other figures in military history who MacArthur being one of them who who seemed to challenge who was actually in charge of the military. But at the end of the day, constitutionally, we We are governed by by civilians. And that that is right, that is proper any anything else would be a coup and you don't want that. So we, it comes down to how does the military try to hold a consistent line? When you have governments that change every two to four to eight years and have drastically different perspectives on policy? How do you as a military hold an even keel and another wise stormy sea. And in previous generations, we had senior general officers who were pretty good at that they were pretty good at saying, regardless of what the ship of state is doing, the ship of military is going to remain on a heading to serve everyone. And there's been somewhat of a lack a breakdown of discipline at the senior ranks in the last probably 10 years, that's really kind of shuttered the ship of the military. And I think the current some of the recently promoted, general officers understand that I think General GA is the new Chief of Staff of the Army, I think he understands that and he's trying to do some things to reintroduce some stability, but it's a hard thing.   Michael Hingson ** 16:16 Yeah. And the other part about it is that the military, in some ways is a part of society. So we've had things like the whole Don't Ask, Don't Tell dealing with LGBTQ types of issues. And, and of course, even women in the military, and there's been a lot of things that haven't necessarily been as visible as they have become, and are issues that we are starting to face and deal with more. But it seems to me that the military, like it or not, is part of society. And we do need to recognize that collectively, as well.   Chase Spears ** 17:02 We were absolutely drawn from society. We serve society, we exist, you know, for the protection of society. But I will say there's one thing that's all always kind of set Western militaries apart a little bit, and the US military hails from that Western tradition of understanding that just because society chooses to take a move in one direction, doesn't necessarily mean that it's in the national security interest of the United States for the military, to follow suit. And then there's kind of a reason that the military has always tried to, in some way, set itself apart, of acknowledging that there's some things that society will do or want to that are affected by the times as Shakespeare himself noted, there's always a tide in the affairs and man, the tide comes in the time tide goes out the the, the winds shift. And but one thing that was said at the military part was this idea of, at the end of the day, if it's a societal change that enables us to better defend the nation, then that's the direction we'll move. If it's a societal change that could potentially be a friction point or cause additional challenges in securing the nation, we might, we might think on that one a little bit harder, we might be a little more a little slower to adopt that. And we've seen that has kind of broken down the military is very much going out of its way to be reflective of society. And in some ways that can be good in some ways that's caused additional unnecessary frictions to the force and is rightly being having questions asked about it.   Michael Hingson ** 18:45 And that's where having good solid leadership in the military at the highest echelons, has to be an important part of it, because that's where ultimately, the direction that the military goes, is at least in part, going to be authored. Yes, there is a civilian government that and civilian commander in chief, but still the military leaders have to really be the ones mostly to figure out where the military should go in terms of policies and how it deals with different issues or not, I would think.   Chase Spears ** 19:27 And the key word that you hit on there, Michael is leadership. Back a few months ago, I wrote a piece that was published by real clear defense called seven new things the new Sergeant Major of the Army could do to restore trust in the force. And the argument that I made his predecessor was one who was very kind of reactive to the, to the whims you might say, of a the younger generation of soldiers. He was very much all over Twitter about telling me your issues. Let me get involved in your issues. And he was, in some ways a very divisive, senior official in the military. And I equated it to you, you want to look at kind of the British constitutionalist position, the British Crown, if you're looking overseas, it has traditionally been something that it's kind of the rock, unmovable, unshakable, the parliament will do what parliament will do that the Tories and Labour will do what they will do, but the crown is unmovable the crown serves all. And that's kind of something that the military reflected, and I call out to the new rising generation military leaders to remember that, to remember that we don't own this, we owe nothing in the institution, we all leave it one day, as I left it a matter of weeks ago. All I have are my memories and and hopes that I was able to leave some things better than I found them and that the people I served that I hope I served them well. But at the end of the day, we hand it off to someone else. And it's so important for to have good leaders who recognize that we we steward the profession, that we we want to do the best we can with it in our time, and recognize the decisions that we make, will impact those who serve long after our time and do our best to hand it off in the best possible condition that we can for them. Because then to the to society, we returned. And then we depend on this who came after us for our national defense. And so it's the steward mindset to me as key.   Michael Hingson ** 21:41 Yeah. Well, and going back a little bit. So you're in graduate school you got recruited in and accepted and went into the military. What did you do? What was it like when you first went and that certainly again, had to be quite a culture shock from things that you would experience before? Ah,   Chase Spears ** 22:02 yeah, I figured absolutely was you'll never forget your first shark attack at basic training for for anyone who's unfamiliar with that, it's when you once you've done your initial and processing there, whatever base you get your basic training at, for me, it was Fort Jackson in South Carolina. And then they eventually buss you off to your your training companies, which is where you will actually conduct your combat training. This is after you've received your uniforms and done all your finances, paperwork, and life insurance and all that. And then the buses stop and the drill sergeants, they're just there waiting for you. And it's a moment you never forget. And of course, you jump off the bus and they're giving you all these commands that they know it's impossible for you to, to execute to any level of satisfaction. And then when you fail, as you inevitably will, you know, the entire group just gets smoked over and over and over again. And I remember that moment just having that realization of I have not in Kansas anymore, like the next next few months of my life are about to be very different than anything I've ever experienced. And it was it absolutely was. I got through that. And I think the first thing that was really kind of shocking to me be on to the training environment was the use of last names. So yeah, I go by chase my friends call me chase people who know me call me chase. I'm I'm not hung up on titles. I'm a simple guy. In the military, you are your rank and last name. I was specialist Spears sergeants First Lieutenant spears or LT Captain spears, major spears. And I remember at my first unit, there were other other people who in my unit there were the same rank as me. And so I thought were peers I'd call them by their first name. And they never gave me problems about it. But our higher ups would you know, people have rank spears, we don't go by first names spears. And I never I never 20 years and I still never really adjusted well to that I learned how to how to keep myself from getting as many talking to us about it over the years is I had in previous times. But that was a culture shock. And, and just the the constant what we call the military, the battle rhythm, you know, civil society would call it your work schedule, while in the military. It never really ends your day start very early. You have physical training that you're doing with your unit at 630. Depending on what unit you're in, you may be off at a reasonable time in the late afternoon, early evening, or you may be there. I've remember staying at work one night till 4am Just because the boss gave us a job to do. Frankly, it was an unreasonable job. But he gave us a job to do and an extraordinarily tight deadline and it took us till 4am to get the job done and And I was at work by 630, the next morning. So you never, ever really do get used to that in some ways, because you kind of come to accept it. But it's been really eye opening to me in the last nearly three months now that I've been now, looking back and having some control over my schedule now for the first time in 20 years, and realizing, wow, that was such a foreign existence I lived. But when you're when you're swimming in a fishbowl, you don't know you're wet. So every time you do adapt to it, but it's been neat being on the other side and realizing, you know, can kind of breathe in and start to have some say over what a schedule looks like, because I'd forgotten what that was, what that'd be like.   Michael Hingson ** 25:44 But as you rose in the ranks, and I assume took on more responsibility, did that give you any more flexibility in terms of how you operate it on a day to day basis.   Chase Spears ** 25:56 It all depended on the position, there were there were some jobs I had, where were, regardless of the rank, I had flexibility. And then there were other jobs, where I absolutely did not even as a major want, there was a job that I had, where the boss was very adamant. This is the time you will be here and you will be sitting at this desk between these hours and you are authorized authorized is a big term in the military culture, you are authorized a 30 minute lunch break period. And you will be here until this time every day. And this was when I had you know, I think I was at my 1718 year mark. And I remember thinking to myself, golly, do I need to ask permission to go to the bathroom to see, it seemed I didn't. So it really kind of depended on your job. There's a perception a lot of times that the higher you go in rank, the more control you have over your life. And I observed that the opposite is actually true. The higher you go, typically, the more the more demands are placed on you. The more people are depending on the things that you're doing. And and the bigger the jobs are. And the longer the days are was my experience, but it had been flooded depending on what position I was in at the given time.   Michael Hingson ** 27:17 Now, when you first enlisted and all that, what was Laurie's reaction to all of that.   Chase Spears ** 27:23 I was shocked. She was so supportive. She actually grew up in an Air Force household. And so she knew military life pretty well. Her dad had been been in, he spent a lot more time in the air force than I did the army. And then even after he retired from the Air Force, he went on and taught at the Naval Academy as a civilian. So she is just always had a level of familiarity with the military as long as she can remember. She joked with me that when she got married to me and then had to give up her dependent military ID card that it was kind of a moment of mourning for she didn't want to give that thing up. So one day, there we are Knoxville, Tennessee, and I approached her. And I'm trying to be very careful, very diplomatic, very suave, and how I bring it up to her and let her know I've been thinking about the army. And I'm kind of curious what she might think about that. Because it'd be such a drastic lifestyle change from everything we've been talking about. And I was bracing for her to look at me and be like, are you insane? And instead, she was like, Oh, you won't get in the military. And I get an ID card again. Yes. She was she was supportive from from Jump Street. And so you talk about a wife who just was there, every minute of it, and loved and supported and gave grace and rolled with the punches. milori Did she was absolutely phenomenal. Though, I will admit when it got to the point that I was starting to think maybe 20. I'll go ahead and wrap this up, because my original plan had been to do 30. But when I started talking with her about that she was she was also ready, she was ready to actually start having me home regularly for us to be able to start making family plans and be able to follow through with them. Because we had the last three years we had not been able to follow through with family plans, because of the different positions that I was in. So she was very, very supportive of me joining and then she was equally very supportive of me going ahead and and calling it calling it a day here or the last just at the end of this year. But what a what a partner could not have done it   Michael Hingson ** 29:41 without her. So where did she live when you were going through basic training and all that.   Chase Spears ** 29:46 So she stayed in Knoxville for nonGSA. Yeah. And then from there, she actually ended up moving up to her dad's and his wife's place up in Maryland because my follow on school after base See training was the Defense Information School. That's where all the Public Affairs courses are taught. And it's so happens that that is located at Fort Meade, Maryland, which is just about a 45 minute drive traffic dependent from where her dad lived. So while I was in basic training, she went ahead and moved up there to Maryland so that while I was in school up there, we could see each other on the weekends. And then from there, we didn't have to go back to Tennessee and pack up a house or stuff was already packed up so we could get on the road together there to wherever our next duty station was. And it turned out funny enough to be Colorado Springs, Fort Carson. And here's why that's funny. When, when I approached Laurie, about joining the army, one of the things that she was really excited about was seeing the world if you're in the military, you get to see the world, right. And my first duty assignment was the town that she had grown up in, because her dad had spent the last few years of his career teaching at the Air Force Academy there on the northern end of Colorado Springs. So so her her dreams of seeing the world with me, turned out that our first tour was going to write back home for her.   Michael Hingson ** 31:14 Oh, that has its pluses and it's minuses.   Chase Spears ** 31:17 Yep. So it was neat for me to get to see where she had grown up and learn the town little bit.   Michael Hingson ** 31:23 I've been to Fort Meade, and actually a few times I used to sell technology to folks there. And then several years ago, I was invited to come in after the World Trade Center and do a speech there. And so it was it was fun spending some time around Fort Meade heard some wonderful stories. My favorite story still is that one day somebody from the city of Baltimore called the fort because they wanted to do traffic studies or get information to be able to do traffic studies to help justify widening roads to better help traffic going into the fort. So they call it the fort. And they said, Can you give us an idea of how many people come through each day? And the person at the other end said, Well, I'm really not sure what you're talking about. We're just a little shack out here in the middle of nowhere. And so they ended up having to hire their own people to count cars for a week, going in and out of the fort was kind of cute.   Chase Spears ** 32:23 Well, there's quite a bit of traffic there. Now that basis when   Michael Hingson ** 32:26 I was then to there wasn't just a little shack, of course, it was a whole big forest.   Chase Spears ** 32:32 Yeah, yeah, it's I was back there. Golly, I want to say it wasn't that long ago. But it was about five years ago now is back there. And I almost didn't recognize the place. There's been so much new built there. But oh, I know, as far as army assignments go, it's a it's a pretty nice place.   Michael Hingson ** 32:50 Yeah, it is. And as I said, I've had the opportunity to speak there and spend some time dealing with folks when we sold products and so on. So got to got to know, people, they're pretty well and enjoyed dealing with people there. They knew what they were doing. Yeah,   Chase Spears ** 33:07 yeah, that's a it's a smart group of people in that base.   Michael Hingson ** 33:10 So you went through basic training and all that and what got you into the whole idea of public relations and what you eventually went into?   Chase Spears ** 33:20 Well, I had studied in college, my undergraduate degree was in television and radio broadcasting. My master's was in journalism, I'd grown up kind of in the cable news age, and the at the age of the emergence of am Talk Radio is a big, big tool of outreach. And I grew up thinking, this is what I want to do. I love communication. I actually thought it'd be really neat to be an investigative reporter on if, if you remember, back in the 90s, it was this big thing of, you know, Channel Nine on your side, yeah, had this investigative reporter who tell you the real deal about the restaurant or the automotive garage. And I always thought that would be amazing, like what a great public service like helping people to avoid being ripped off. And so I wanted to be a news. I'm sure you're familiar with the Telecom Act of 1996. That That caused a tremendous consolidation of media for your audience who might not be familiar with it. It used to be that really, if you had the wherewithal to buy a media station or a television station or radio station, you were unlimited in what you could you there were limits, I should say on what you could buy, so that you couldn't control too much, too much media environment, the Telecom Act of 1996, completely deregulated that and so large media companies were just swallowing up the nation. And that meant there's a tremendous consolidation of jobs and the my junior year in college. I was in the southeast us at the time at Lee University. Atlanta. Nearby was our biggest hiring media market, my June Your year CNN laid off 400 people. So I could tell really quick, this is going to be a chat and even more challenging field to break into than I thought. And that's why I ended up working part time in a law firm was in, in Journalism School. Afterwards, because I was looking great. I was looking for a backup plan. I thought if journalism doesn't work out, I also love the law. It'd be nice to get some experience working in a firm to see if I want to go to law school. So it was a natural fit for me when the army recruiter started talking to me. And he was asking me what I was interested in. And I told him, Well, here's what my degree is in, here's what my career plan had been, here's who I really want to do with my life. And he said, we have public affairs, I said, What's that? It turns out, the military has radio stations, and they have television networks and you PR, I had no idea. I was a civilian. And I was like, Well, that sounds good. And so I thought, yeah, sure, I'll I will enlist for that come in, do one four year contract, I'll build a portfolio and and then I'll be able to take that portfolio out into the civilian realm. And hopefully that will make me more competitive for a job in the news market. And of course, a couple of years into that. I was in Kuwait deployed to camp Arif John. And my brigade commander sat me down to lunch one day, and made it very clear that he expected me to apply for Officer Candidate School, which was nowhere on what I was interested in doing was nowhere on my radar, I applied, I really didn't have a lot of confidence. I thought, I looked at officers and I thought they were people who are way, way more intelligent than me, way more suave than me. And I really didn't know if I'd get in, well, I got in. And after I commissioned officer candidate school is about like basic training all over again. So that was fun. And I ended up being assigned to a combat camera unit. And then afterwards, I was able to put my paperwork in to branch transfer right back into public affairs, it was a perfect mess was everything I wanted to do. I didn't get to work in news directly. I wasn't a reporter. But I got to work with reporters, I got to be an institutional insider and help facilitate them and help to tell the stories of what some great American patriots were doing, and wanting to serve their countries. And so it was, for the most part, more often than not, it was a really, really fun way to earn a living living.   Michael Hingson ** 37:34 I collect as a hobby old radio shows I'm very familiar with but back in the 40s was the Armed Forces Radio Service, then it became Armed Forces Radio and Television Service. And so I'm aware a little bit of, of the whole broadcast structure in the military, not a lot, but but some and know that that it's there. And it does, I'm suspect, a really good job of helping to keep people informed as much as it can as they can with the things that they have to do in the world. It's   Chase Spears ** 38:04 definitely it's a comfort over the years, if you're spending a lot of time overseas to have kind of that that taste of home and our forces network does a really good job of that letting I think we're starting to see some debates inside the military. Now. What do we want to continue of it? Because now information is so ubiquitous, if you will, you can pull it down, you can stream whatever you want, wherever you are in the globe. So I kind of wonder in the next 1020 years, will it still be a thing, but during my early career during my early deployment before he could stream stuff, it was really cool to have an AFN radio station to tune into is really cool to have an AFN television network to tune into to be able to get a taste of home. That was much a comfort,   Michael Hingson ** 38:52 right? Yeah, it is. It is something that helps. So you can't necessarily stream everything. I spent a week in Israel this summer. And there were broadcasts I could get and pick up through the internet and so on. And there were stuff from here in the US that I couldn't get I suspect it has to do with copyright laws and the way things were set up but there was only so much stuff that you could actually do.   Chase Spears ** 39:20 And what a time to be in Israel you will I bet that trip is even more memorable for you now than it would have been otherwise.   Michael Hingson ** 39:27 Fortunately, it wasn't August. So we we didn't have to put up with the things that are going on now. But still Yeah, it was very memorable. I enjoyed doing it. spending a week with excessively over there and got into getting to meet with with all the folks so it was definitely well worth it and something that that I will always cherish having had the opportunity to do get   Chase Spears ** 39:51 for you. If it's on my bucket list. I've always wanted to spend some time over there.   Michael Hingson ** 39:56 Hot and humid in the summer, but that's okay. Let's say but they love breakfast. Oh, really? So yeah, definitely something to think about. Well, so you, you joined you got you got the public relations, jobs and so on. So how did all that work for you over? Well, close to 20 years? What all did you do and what, what stories can you tell us about some of that?   Chase Spears ** 40:25 It was it was fascinating. It was fascinating because everything that I got to touch was, in some way a story. And so my first job was in radio and television production. I did quite a bit of that in Kuwait. And it was actually there that I got my first taste of crisis communication, and I was immediately addicted. Do you remember back in? It was December 2004. Donald Rumsfeld said you go to war with the Army you have not the army want or might wish to have it another time? Yeah. I was there. That that was uttered in camp you're in Kuwait. And that was such an interesting moment. For me in terms of a story to tell. I was with the 14 Public Affairs Detachment we were deployed to camp Arif John to provide public affairs support for for Third Army's Ford headquarters. This was back during the height of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. And so there's a lot of military going over there. We were part of that. And I remember hearing this tasking that had come down that the Secretary of Defense is going to come out here is going to do this town hall meeting with the troops. There's going to be no question that you can't ask. You're going to be allowed to say anything you want to say to the Secretary of Defense, nothing's going to be scripted, nothing's going to be put through for review. And by the way, 14 pad you guys are going to make sure that it can be televised live back to the United States. And so here I am thinking what can possibly go wrong. And so we helped we all the event, Secretary Rumsfeld hindered and handled it really, really well. They set up this big, you know, fighting machinery display, they're in a in a big aircraft hangar epic camp bearing which is in northern Kuwait, just not too far south from the Iraqi border. And he gets up he gives the speech. He's well received by the troops. And it goes to the q&a part. And soldiers were asking him all sorts of questions. Most of them are jovial, you know, hey, when when do we get to go to Disney World, stuff like that. They were kind of big jocular with them.   Michael Hingson ** 42:42 Seems a fair question.   Chase Spears ** 42:44 Yeah, you know, I felt them right. And so finally, this one guy, I'll never forget his name, especially as Thomas Wilson from the 2/78 Regimental Combat Team. Tennessee National Guard asks him a question about when are they going to get the body armor that's needed? And in true Rumsfeld style, he's he says, Well, I'm not quite sure I understood the question. Can you ask it again, which is a great technique. He used to buy him some time to think the answer. And then it came back after the second question. And the whole hangar about 1000 of us in there. It was hast. I'll bet you could have heard a plastic cup hit the floor at the back back of the room. I mean, everyone was like, what? Oh, no, what just happened? What's about to happen? And Rumsfeld makes that remark, you go to war with the army have not the one you want or need. Yeah. And and then the questions went on. And there was not be after that. There was no awkward moment for the rest of the time. And I and I thought, wow, that could have gone south. But it didn't cool. It was just it was neat to watch. I was running the television camera that caught the moment. I was in the room. And so we me and my sergeant had to stay up there the rest of the day because there were some other television network interviews with other officials that we were running the satellite transponder for. And it was a long day our commander was kind of being a jerk to us. So by the end of the day, we were tired we'd been up there sleeping on cots for a couple of days, we were kind of just ready to get back to data camp Arif, John to our beds and put the whole mission behind us. And then we drive to three hours through this pouring pouring rainstorm in Kuwait, and a Canvas side Humvee that's leaking. All you know, water just pouring into this thing on us. So we're done. We're done. We're done. We're like, we just want to get a bed. We get back to our base. We're offloading all the equipment, putting everything away. And at this point in time, I forgotten about the moment earlier in the day when that question was asked, and I walk in and there we had this wall of televisions you know, tracking all the different news networks back in the US and on all of them Their Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army have not the army won or wish to have another time. And at that moment, I was like, it's about to be an interesting few weeks around here. And it turned out, it turned out indeed to be an interesting few weeks, an interesting few months. And I got to be on the front end of what the public affairs response to that looks like. And I can tell you, I've never seen armored vehicles flow into a place as quickly as they did in the following month. So the power of a message transmitted is a real thing. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 45:39 so whatever happened to specialist Wilson?   Chase Spears ** 45:44 I don't I don't know. I know that news coverage. When that news reporters were asking that very question and coverage that I saw said, Oh, his unit, his assured that nothing bad will happen to him. He was a national guardsmen, so he kind of fall under a different, different command structure than us. From time to time, I have wondered that and I've tried to look him up online, and just try to find out what happened to the sky and what was life like for him? I'd love to talk to him and ask alright, what was it like, man, what is your unit do? But I, I have no idea. I can't find him. I presume he's gone about his life and doesn't want to be famous about it. But it also goes back to National Guard culture versus active duty culture. We talked earlier about the citizenship aspect. And the National Guard gets that way more than the active component. At the end of the day, they demobilize. And they go home. Right, you're running into the same people you serve, with the church, at the grocery store, at the grocery store, at the PTA, places like this, some of them might be your neighbors. And so they have an entirely different outlook. This is what they do to serve the country when needed. And then they go on about their lives. I don't think you would have seen an active duty soldier ask that question. I really don't because the culture is so so markedly different. And there's a level of kind of freedom of thought and expression, present that guard that that is much more lacking in the active component.   Michael Hingson ** 47:19 Should there be more freedom, in that sense in the active component? Or do you think that it's really appropriate for there to be the dichotomy that you're describing?   Chase Spears ** 47:32 And the act of force you need discipline? You need a discipline force, who, when they're given a lawful order, will carry it out hastily, because lives could hang in the balance. That's absolutely important, and we can never lose that. But sometimes we can use discipline I say sometimes, often, more is the more appropriate term often we confuse discipline with silence. We confuse discipline with a lack of willingness to ask tough questions. We confuse discipline with just saying Yes, sir. When you know, in the back of your mind, there might be something you need to dig into more. We we need, unfortunately, since the end of the Second World War, going back to my comments earlier about this large, industrialized, institutionalized force we have it breeds careerists. It breeds a mindset that's fearful to ask tough questions, even if you know they need to be asked. Because you want to be promoted. Right? You want to get assignments, right. And it breeds a culture where you really are much more timid. Or you're much more likely to be timid than someone who's maybe a reservist or National Guard member. We need people who will ask tough questions. We don't need indiscipline, we don't rush showmanship, we don't need people who are being performative just to be seen. But there are valid questions to be asked is, you know, is US defense policy? Better set for a 400? Ship navy or a 300? Ship? Navy? That's a valid question. Is it better for us to use this route of attack versus that route of attack? Given the Give Me Everything we know, those are valid questions. We need people in the military who who are willing to be critical thinkers, and there are a lot of extraordinarily brilliant people in today's armed forces, as there always has been. But there is on the active duty side a culture that works against original thought and that's really to our detriment. And I think the manner in which the evacuation of Afghanistan ended is one more blatant indicator of that.   Michael Hingson ** 49:48 It was not handled nearly as well as it could have been as we have seen history tell us and teach us now   Chase Spears ** 49:56 Absolutely. i It broke my heart. I'm A veteran of that conflict I'm not one who cries easily, Michael but I can tell you that morning when I saw the some of the images coming out of cobbles especially there's a video of a C 17 cargo jet taking off and people literally hanging to and falling to their deaths. Just i i fell off, I fell off my on my run into a sobbing human being on this on the ground for a little bit it is there's a lot to process and it has continued to be a lot to process. And there again, there's a great example of why you gotta be willing to ask tough questions. There was no no reason at all. We should have abandoned Bagram and tried to evacuate out of downtown Cabo. But that's a whole nother conversation. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 50:52 Well, speaking of you, I understand that you weren't a great fan of jumping out of airplanes, but you got used to doing them? I   Chase Spears ** 51:01 sure did. Oh, yeah. I always thought that would just be something that no, I don't want to say no sane person would do. I mean, I enjoy watching skydivers, I think it's really cool. And obviously, they're saying, I never thought I'd be among them. I thought, Nah, that's just something, I don't think I'm gonna do that. And when I was an officer candidate school, I was roommates with a guy who had been to Airborne School earlier in his career. And he was like, man, don't do it. Don't let him talk you into going to Airborne School, though, you'll be stuck at Fort Bragg, you'll just you'll be broke all the time, you'll be hurting all the time, the army takes the fun out of everything. And he's right. To an extent the army does take the fun out of most things that touches. But I got to my first unit as an officer. So I'd done enlisted time for three years, then I went to Officer Candidate School. And then my first job as an officer was at the 55th combat camera company, which is not a full airborne unit, but it's a partial airborne unit. And they had a hard time keeping enough active duty paratroopers on hand. And so I remember day one, when I was in processing the unit, there are all these different places you go, when you're in process, you gotta go see the training room, and you got to go see the administrative room, and you got to go see the Transportation Office and all these places, and they're just checking your paperwork. And so I see the training room, and there's the sergeant in there. And he's looking through my list. And he's asking me all these questions, you know, when was your last PT test? Where's the last physical, you know, making notes on me for the unit record? And then he says, Do you want to go to Airborne School? And without thinking, I said, Absolutely not. I have no interest in going to Airborne School. And his reply to me was go ahead and get an airborne physical. And I thought, There's no way I'm ever getting an airborne physical because I'm not going to Airborne School. So a few weeks later, I'm in the unit, I'm more comfortable. And I'm across. I'm in a different office across the hall from where this guy worked. And I'm joking around with this other sergeant. And I'm like, sir, and you're just such a cool guy. Like you've got all together, you're, you're like everything I want to be when I grow up. What how do you do it? He said, Well, sir, you got to go to Airborne School. That's step one. The other guy across the hall ever hears that, you know, mouse ears, I don't know how. But he darts out of his office across the hall into this opposite we're in, looks me straight in the face and said, Did you say you want to go to Airborne School? Like no, is not what I said, I absolutely have no interest. I'm not going to Airborne School. And he again replies with schedule your physical. And I thought, I'm not going to disappoint me scheduling a fiscal. So I get back to my office that later that day. And I thought this guy is not going to give up. So I came up with this brilliant plan. It was smart, smartest plan you'll ever hear of, I'm going to pretend I'm going to get my airborne physical and then he'll forget about me, leave me alone. So I called him and said, Hey, Sergeant, what's the phone number I have to call them schedule an airborne physical and it gives me the phone number and the the name of the person to talk to and I said, Great. I'll talk to him. There were two or three other lieutenants set to show up to the unit next in the next month. So I thought he will assume I'm getting a physical which I'm not getting and there's other guys will show up and he will convince them to go and I will fall off his radar. I was incorrect. That was a bad bad miscalculation on my part, you might say a flawed operation   Michael Hingson ** 54:39 with your the and you were the one who was talking about brilliant people in the army Anyway, go ahead.   Chase Spears ** 54:43 I know I know. Right? Yeah, I am a paradox. And so that within an hour I get an email from him with my he's already put me in for school. I already have orders generated to go to jump school. And then he calls me he's like Hey, by the way, your report in like three weeks, I need your physical as soon as you can get it. And I thought this guy, I told him I'm not going to Airborne School. Well, at the same time, our unit commander was a paratrooper, and he loves jumping out of airplanes. And I had two or three paratroopers in my platoon who were underneath me. And I thought, There's no way I can go now. Because if I, if I get the commander to release me, one, I'll lose face with the old man. And I'll lose face with the troops that I lead because the soldiers have to compete for this. They're just giving it to me. And so I went, protesting, kicking, screaming the whole way. I hated ground week. I hated tower week. And then they put took me up to the 250 foot tower and dropped me off the side of it under a parachute. And I loved it. I was like, Oh, this is fun. I actually asked if I can do it again. And they said, they don't get what's right. So the next week, we go into jump week in there I am in the back of an airplane, and it comes to my turn to get up and exit it. And I do, and I get to the ground and I survive. And I literally just sat there and laughed uncontrollably because I couldn't believe I just jumped out of a plane. And it was my first of 40 jobs. So I was I was absolutely hooked from that moment on.   Michael Hingson ** 56:20 And what did Lori think of that?   Chase Spears ** 56:23 She was a little bit surprised. She She again, was supportive. But she was surprised she never thought it's something that I would take to and it ended up being a great thing for us. Because having been on jumped status, it opened the door for me to request the unit and Alaska that we ended up going to for six years, you had to be on airborne status to be able to go to that job. And so had I not going to jump school, I would not have qualified to go into Alaska for that particular job. And so it ended up being a wonderful, wonderful thing. But I would have never guessed it, it just it's another one of those poignant reminders to me that every time that I think I've got a plan, it's God's way of reminding me that he has a sense of humor, because what's going to work out is always going to be very different from what I think.   Michael Hingson ** 57:10 And you help Laurie see the world. So well worked out. Absolutely.   Chase Spears ** 57:15 Yeah, she we never, we never got to spend time together overseas. But Alaska was an amazing adventure. And, gosh, if if no one in your listeners haven't been there yet to go see a Sunday?   Michael Hingson ** 57:29 Yeah, I went there on a cruise I didn't see as much as I would have loved to but still, I got to see some of them. It was great.   Chase Spears ** 57:38 It's nothing like it. No. Now you   Michael Hingson ** 57:42 as you advance in the ranks, and so on you, you started being in public relations, being a communicator, and so on. But clearly, as you advanced, you became more and I'm sure were viewed as more of a leader that was kind of a transition from from not being a leader. And just being a communicator and doing what you were told to be more of a leader, what was that transition like?   Chase Spears ** 58:07 That was another one of those things that I would have never seen coming. After I did my three years as the spokesman for the Airborne Brigade. In Alaska, I ended up becoming the deputy communication director for US Army, Alaska, which was the highest army command there in the state responsible for 11,000 troops and their families in multiple locations. And I remember one day, my boss came to me and saying, hey, the general is going to give a speech to the hockey team at the University of Alaska, about leadership. And so I need you to write it. And I looked at him and I said, boss, all right, whatever he told me to write, but the general has forgotten more about leadership than I know, like, how do where do I start with this? And I don't remember the exact words, I think it was something to the effect of, you're smart, you'll figure it out. And so I put together a speech, it was by no means anything glorious, but it was the best I had to give that moment in time and what leadership was fully convinced that I was not one. And then over time, I there are people who spoken to me at their headquarters who called out leadership that I didn't see they were pointing out influence that I had there pointing out people who I was able to help steer towards decisions that I didn't realize that I didn't know and it made me start looking back in other parts of my career and realizing, Oh, my goodness, I actually led that team. This man actually looks to me for decisions. I actually I am a leader, I had no idea. There's something I always thought if if you were in the military and you're a leader, you were some grand master, you know, like, like Patton or Eisenhower and I didn't think think myself anything like that. And so finally, in 2015, I was offered A chance to take command of a company which in civilian terms, that's kind of like being the executive director, if you will, of an organization of 300 people. And I was so excited for it. Because by that point in time, I finally made the mental transition of saying, I'm not, I'm not merely a communicator, communicating is what I've done. But occasionally it's I've worked on delivering us on passionate about, by came to realize, I love that so much because communicating is a part of leading and, and I, I am a leader, it's just something. Looking back. Of course, my life has always been there, I just never knew it. I never saw it, I never believed in it. And so by the time I was offered the chance to command, I was very excited for it, I was very eager for it, because I realized this is going to be an a wonderful adventure getting to lead a team at this level of this size. And it was the hardest job I ever did in the army, and the most rewarding. I don't know if you've ever watched any of the Lord, Lord of the Rings movie. But there's this moment where Aragon is being chided, is set aside the Ranger Be who you were meant to be to be the king. And that meant that came back to my mind several times I had to challenge myself that just because I only see myself as a communicator all these years doesn't mean that I can't do other things. And so it was a joy to actually walk into that. Believing is not easy. There's there are a lot of hard days or a lot of hard decisions. Especially when I was a commander, I agonized every decision. So I made because I knew this will have an impact on a person, this will have an impact on a family this, this will change the directions and plans that people had. And so it's a heavy weight to bear. And I think it's good that those kind of decisions come with weight. And I would question someone who who can make those kinds of calls without having to wrestle with them.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:01 When you look at all the things that you've done, and the work that you do, and the work that you did, at the end of every day, or at some time during the day, I know you were pretty busy. But did you ever have the time to just kind of sit back and reflect on how did this go today? How did that go? What could have been better? Did you do any kind of introspection? Or did you feel you had time to do that?   Chase Spears ** 1:02:24 I didn't really feel I had time. And it would be easy for me to blame the unit, it'd be easy for me to blame people. But that responsibility rests with me. It's a discipline that I didn't develop until way too late in my career. And I eventually did develop it, I eventually came to realize the importance of reflection of introspection of taking a mental inventory of what I've accomplished I didn't accomplish and what I can learn from it. But it was sadly something that I didn't do as much as I should have. And I didn't do it as early, I was really, really bad at assuming well, because the unit needs this right now. I can't take care of this thing that I need to take care of that will that will allow me to be the leader that I need to be you know, I get in a car, someone slams on my car, and I need to get them to take care of it. Why don't have time unit Scott has to have me We gotta move on. Well, I've got six screws in my left hand and my left shoulder right now because I was always too busy to listen to the physical therapist and take care of myself, you know, the unit needs me the unit needs me the men need me. And so it, it was a hard, hard learned lesson. The importance of sitting back and reflecting is something I wish I would have learned much sooner. But once I did, it served me well. And it's a discipline that I still practice now.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:46 Yeah, yeah, it's, I think a very important thing. And a lot of things can can stem from that. What's the best position your favorite position in the army and why?   Chase Spears ** 1:03:59 The best thing I ever got to do is company command. And it's hard to say that because it's really it's really closely tied with being a brigade director of communication. And t

Thinking Cap Theatre's Artistic Director Nicole Stodard talks with Jemma Alix Levy,  Theatre Director and Associate Professor of Acting and Directing at Washington and Lee University about Shakespeare's The Taming of the Shrew. JEMMA'S BIO Jemma Alix Levy is an Associate Professor of Acting and Directing at Washington and Lee University and has directed professionally for over 25 years. She earned degrees from Amherst College, the University of Chicago, and Mary Baldwin University's program in association with the American Shakespeare Center, and she completed The Juilliard School's now-defunct graduate directing program.  Levy's directing work has won critical acclaim across the US and internationally, including for her own companies, Runamuck (Austin, TX), and Muse of Fire Theatre Company (Evanston, IL).  Before her arrival at Washington and Lee University, Jemma taught theatre and directed at Webster University's Conservatory of Theater Arts (MO), Wabash College (IN), Roosevelt University Chicago College for the Performing Arts (IL), Mary Baldwin University (VA), and The Brearley School (NY). Levy has also written adaptations based on the works of Shakespeare, Lope de Vega, and two-time National-Book-Award-nominee Howard Norman.  She is a certified Consent-Forward Artist.  www.jemmalevy.com Support for this program has been provided by the following Funds at the Community Foundation of Broward: John O. and Victoria C. Kirby Fund, Frederick W. Jaqua Fund, The Frederick A. DeLuca Foundation Broward Community Fund. Sponsored in part by the State of Florida through the Division of Arts and Culture and the National Endowment for the Arts, Broward County Cultural Division and a grant from The Our Fund Foundation, an LGBTQ community foundation. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/thinking-cap-theatre/support

Dr. William Lamb, director of the Leonard Center at Lee University, joins us live from the exhibitor hall at General Assembly 2024! In this mini-episode, Dr. Lamb talks about his new book, Trek On: The Journey of a Disciple.

Jenefer Davies, Professor of Dance and Chair of the Department of Theater, Dance, and Film Studies at Washington and Lee University shares her early beginnings at age three to her current role shaping W&L's dance program. We explore Jenefer's innovative approach to dance education in a liberal arts setting, including her groundbreaking work in aerial dance. Our conversation covers diverse dance genres and techniques, as well as the unexpected benefits students gain from dance classes. Jenefer shares insights on how dance challenges and empowers W&L students, pushing them out of their academic comfort zones and fostering personal growth. We'll also discuss the exciting annual tradition of the alumni and student dance performance in New York City, which has become a cherished part of the W&L dance community.

Jeff is joined by Lucas Morel, Professor of Political Science at Washington & Lee University, to commemorate Independence Day this year with commentary from, arguably, America's greatest Civil Rights and abolition leader. Douglass, born into slavery, became the most powerful voice for emancipation and the destruction of an institution that flew in the face of the more core American values. During his life, his views on America and our government evolved, and in this powerful 1852 speech, he explains to Americans what America can and ought to be.Read the full speech here: https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/what-to-the-slave-is-the-fourth-of-july-2/Host: Jeff SikkengaExecutive Producer: Greg McBrayerProducer: Jeremy GyptonSubscribe: https://linktr.ee/theamericanidea

Featuring Kish Parella, Class of 1960 Professor of Ethics and Law at Washington and Lee University.   (Recorded 5/6/24)    

Kyle Jackson is the Campus Pastor at Church of the Highlands in Columbus, GA.  A former NCAA baseball player at Lipscomb University and Baseball Coach at Lee University, he turned to ministry and joined Church of the Highlands, based in Birmingham, AL.  Tasked with opening a Highlands campus in Columbus, Georgia, Jackson and his staff opened in August 2019, and the church has grown exponentially and is making a significant impact on the lives of people in West Georgia and surrounds. Pastor Jackson joins Mark Immelman on the #OntheMark podcast to talk about sports, leadership, overcoming obstables, excelling in life by finding and fulfilling your purpose. Kyle and Mark unpack the Bible story of "David and Goliath" (1 Samuel 17) and highlight lessons to learn from the universally known story. They address and elaborate on a number of skills required to overcome giants in your life and in your golf: Vision for the Future Preparedness and Focussed Work The Mindset for Overcoming Obstacles "Failing" Forward The Importance of Self-belief and the Value of Speaking Life Uplifting Self-talk Dealing with "Haters" and "Naysayers," and Finishing the Job This podcast is also available as a vodcast on YouTube. Search and subscribe to Mark Immelman.    

This week on Sinica: I wandered the halls at the Association for Asian Studies Conference in Seattle and talked to 14 participants and asked them all the same question: What has become clear to you about our field recently? The fantastic diversity of areas of inquiry and of perspectives was really energizing. Hope you enjoy this as much as I did!02:25 Michael Davidson from UC San Diego on working towards climate change goals04:22 Timothy Cheek from University of British Columbia on the importance of continuing to study China despite political tensions 06:51 Chen Zifeng from LSE on Chinese propaganda that surrounds everyday life 11:08 Clyde Yicheng Wang (Wang Yicheng) from Washington and Lee University on Chinese propaganda and its spread into social media 16:57 Jeff Wasserstrom from UC Irvine on connections between events in China and the world18:26 Ian Johnson from CFR on researching China from afar and the importance of online databases 21:01 Daniel Leese from the University of Freiburg on the work of digitizing Chinese sources 24:06 Tyler Harlan from Loyola Marymount University on opportunities for cooperation in the environmental field 25:41 Abby Newman from the University of Chicago Center for East Asian Studies on the importance of spaces for conversation within the field27:55 Sophie Loy-Wilson from the University of Sydney on studying violence and war in Asia with more sympathy 33:45 Joe Dennis from the University of Wisconsin-Madison on the changes he has witnessed in Chinese studies at the university level 36:49 Ed Pulford from the University of Manchester on China's differing perspective on Russia's invasion of Ukraine 39:49 Emily Matson from Georgetown University on the importance of Marxist and Mao thought in analyzing modern Chinese history and World War II42:14 Jan Berris from the National Committee on United States-China Relations on redirecting the U.S. government's focus Recommendation: The musical, poetic, and comedic work of Elle Cordova (formerly Reina Del Cid), on TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook; and the Led Zeppelin tribute band "Presence," fronted by singer Tamar Boursalian. (Alas, the band, which is new, has no online presence. See them if you're in Seattle!)See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Guest Bios Show Transcript A bombshell report on the alleged “affair” between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards published by The Roys Report sent shock waves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people, who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were they both consensual partners? Or, was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? To consider such questions, Baylor University professor Dr. David Pooler, an expert on adult clergy sexual abuse, joins Julie Roys for this challenging but crucial discussion. They examine the difficult story of these two worship leaders in light of this often-misunderstood issue. Adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA) is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened here? Misty claims she's not a victim. And Kevin was not in a formal role of authority over Misty. But he was more than 20 years older than her. Past articles reveal Misty admired Kevin's songs and his intimate style of leading worship. And Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. Also, in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of “adulterous” relationships, describing his advances with women in ways that sound abusive. He wrote, “I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women, not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure.” Regarding Misty, she has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer Kansas City, or IHOPKC. Follow the shocking revelations concerning IHOPKC founder Mike Bickle and the ministry's response at this link. Many questions surround what happened with Misty and Kevin. Drawing from his extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, Dr. Pooler gives insight into these complex issues. Julie also addresses criticisms of her reporting, explaining the struggle of how to report this story, the ethics of journalism, and how this report helps shed light on the larger narrative. Guests Dr. David Pooler Dr. David Pooler is Professor and Director of the Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse; Advocacy and Research Collaborative at Baylor University in the Diana R. Garland School of Social Work. As a national expert on Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse, he brings insights about this phenomenon through research and his clinical practice with survivors. Dr. Pooler has a B.A. in psychology and religion from Lee University and earned the MSW and Ph.D in Social Work at the University of Louisville. He is married to Cheryl, who is also a faculty member in the School of Social Work at Baylor, and they have two adult daughters.  Show Transcript SPEAKERSDAVID POOLER, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:03Our bombshell report on the alleged affair between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards sent shockwaves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were both of them consensual partners? Or was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today we’re going to discuss not just our report on Kevin and Misty, but the often-misunderstood issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. This is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened with Kevin and Misty? Kevin was not in any formal role of authority over Misty, but he was more than 20 years older than her. And we know from published articles that Misty admired Kevin’s songs and his intimate style of leading worship. Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. As I reported in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of adulterous relationships. Yet when you hear the way he described those relationships, they sound abusive. Prosch writes, and I quote, I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure. The very gift God gave me to bless others with, I used to manipulate and seduce these women. We also know that Misty has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer or IHOP in Kansas City. And if you haven’t been following the shocking revelations concerning IHOP founder Mike Bickle, I encourage you to go to the investigations tab at my website, JULIEROYS.COM. And there we have all of our stories on IHOP easily accessible.   Julie Roys  02:10 Well, again, there are a lot of questions surrounding what happened with Misty and Kevin, our reporting on Misty and Kevin, and this whole issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. And joining me for this discussion is a well-known expert on the topic, Dr. David Pooler. Dr. Pooler is a professor at Baylor University who’s done extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, and I’m so looking forward to speaking further with him about this topic.   Julie Roys  02:36 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  03:39 Well again, joining me is Dr. David Pooler, a professor at the Diana R Garland School of Social Work at Baylor University. Dr. Pooler has more than 15 years of social work practice experience and has done extensive work among at risk and abused children. But most pertinent to our discussion today is the research he’s done on adult clergy sexual abuse and his desire to develop healthy church congregations. So Dr. Pooler, welcome, and thanks so much for joining me.   DAVID POOLER 04:09 I am super glad to be here. It’s a real privilege and an honor that I get to talk about something that really matters.   Julie Roys  04:15 Now it does matter, and I just so appreciate your interest in abuse, but also in the way that I first met you at the RESTORE Conference, which to me, I was just kind of blown away when I saw you had signed up for it. I’m like, Oh, my goodness, Dr. Pooler is coming and, and he should be teaching, I should be like sitting under him. And yet you came just to learn and observe, and I just appreciate that.   DAVID POOLER 04:38 I did. I wanted to be around people that it’s almost like the folks that show up that RESTORE  are sort of my people if that makes sense. It’s sort of a hodgepodge of people who have been injured and wounded and are still finding their way and wanting things to be better and on some level looking for church reform, right and in ways that we often aren’t thinking about reform. And so I do think that this whole topic of adult clergy sexual abuse kind of sits in this strange place of the church just does not know what to do with. But yet there’s a lot of room for hope and healing and change to occur. That’s what I’m devoting my life to do.   Julie Roys  05:24 Well, I appreciate that. After we published this article on Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards on what I had termed in the article an affair, and I know that’s a very questionable word, given the context of everything, but you reached out to me, just with some concerns, some questions, and just in such a gracious manner, and we were able to have a zoom call about that. And as we’re having this call, I’m thinking, this is such a profitable conversation, I want to make this public. And so I invited you to do this podcast with me. I think this is going to be outstanding, and I appreciate just your demeanor in coming to me about that. But let me just, instead of me trying to paraphrase you, what were some of the concerns that you had with the article and with even how things were presented?   DAVID POOLER 06:12 Sure. When I read it, just in my study of adult clergy sexual abuse, I could immediately tell there was so much more than could be reported on there. These abusive systems and when I say abuse of systems where we have sort of a patriarchal leader, sort of men are elevated, and we have an issue around clericalism, where it’s elevating the priorities and needs of certain leaders to the exclusion of others. Anyway, but when I read the term affair and I’m like, for there to actually be an affair, there would have to be consent, people would have to be on equal power levels. And I’m like, I wonder if that’s really the case here. So I had issues with the term affair, because one of the things that’s really interesting is that there are 14 states that actually criminalize, have state statutes, where a pastoral leader if they abuse an adult under their care, they can be charged with a crime. In some states, it’s a misdemeanor, and some it’s a felony. California is a current state where there’s legislation happening right now, that’s going to be going through this session, where clergy will be added to the list of other helping professions around that. So I had issues with the term affair, primarily. And I also just was a little worried, too, that we could end up doing some victim blaming in this particular story, blaming Misty as if she’s completely complicit. And again, I’m just wondering, to what extent was position authority, the nature of the relationship, the gender? Are those things leveraged, exploited in this long history? I know Misty has been a part of that movement for years. And what way has she been, you know, her thinking has been sort of distorted, and shifted to come alongside and support leaders no matter what, and protect them at the exclusion of her own self and her own needs? There’s so much more complexity and nuance with this. And thankfully, your response was just amazing and led to this opportunity. Because in a sense, the article then gave an opportunity for a deeper, more meaningful conversation that can expand this and get more people talking about what is adult clergy sexual abuse? can pastors abuse adults and people under their care? even another minister under their care? My research with a resounding yes to all of that. And I’ve seen many cases where there has been a positional leader under another leader who actually is abused. And I’ve seen the system’s hold them equally accountable and like, but that’s not okay. And if you’ll allow me, I’ll share a little bit about what has framed my thinking around power and consent. And some of that actually has to do with the secular world. The secular world is way ahead of where the church is, quite frankly, when it looks at power differentials and consent, in relationships, interpersonal relationships, where there’s a lot of connection, and there’s a lot at stake. For example, with a therapist or a doctor, or a nurse, or my profession, a social worker. And so we have boards that guide our behavior. And so in no situation, would there ever be a case whereas a social worker, I had a sexual connection or relationship with someone that I was working with, and it would never be called consensual it never happened, because it would be clearly labeled as misconduct and inappropriate.   DAVID POOLER 09:42 So not only could I lose my license as a social worker, I would then be held accountable. Generally, every state has a state statute or law to hold a helping professional accountable. Again, that’s where ministry is so far behind, and I honestly think it’s interesting our separation of church and state is actually part of the problem. Because what happens is the church has just not been forced to keep up with evolving new ways of thinking about power, and consent, and relationships and boundaries. And that really, it’s always the person with more power, it’s their job and responsibility to delineate what a healthy relationship is going to be. It’s their responsibility to outline the boundaries, it’s their responsibility to maintain boundaries. But yet in the church, we have done so much victim blaming. A pastoral leader is sexual with someone that is dependent on them, and then they blame that person and says, Yeah, they just did this, that or the other. A lot of the purity culture stuff, a lot of our rape culture, quite frankly, in this society, and just, Oh, what was she wearing? What was she doing? She must have been the temptress, those kinds of things. So that sort of sets the stage for this conversation about adult clergy sexual abuse.   Julie Roys  11:04 And I don’t disagree with you on one thing that you just said. And in fact, I think my first introduction to adult clergy sexual abuse was hearing Lori Anne Thompson’s story. And if you don’t know Lori Anne’s story, she was one of the victims of Ravi Zacharias. And the way that she was manipulated, the way he found out her past abuse, and then used that to basically become a father figure. And then to exploit that, to get her to do something that she would not have normally done. But it was so predatory. It was so abusive, and I could see it once I heard the story. It was like, Oh, my goodness, of course. And we’ve had entire podcast we’ve done on this, I did one with Katie Roberts, who was, you know, in a similar type situation, and now she started an entire organization, helping adult victims of adult clergy sexual abuse. And so this is something I’m familiar with. And so if somebody asked me, do I think Misty Edwards was a victim? I would say, absolutely, 100 percent, I think she was a victim. What I found difficult with this story, normally, the victim in the stories that I report, is the source. It’s the person who comes to me with their story, and says, will you please report this story for me of this person that harmed me? Here I have a situation first time ever, honestly, where I have somebody coming to me, who is saying she’s not a victim. And I’m having to deal with a very complex story where there were two stories in this particular case; one, which was I referred to as the other secret because you couldn’t tell one story without having that story, because they were intertwined. But I didn’t tell that story, because it involved what to me was very clearly what you just described, it was abuse. And I wasn’t going to tell that story out of respect for the victim, because it was clearly abuse. With Kevin and Misty, again, my opinion, it was abuse. And so now I felt like it was one of those situations where you have two competing virtues and values. So on one hand, as an advocate, your highest commitment is to the victim, right? You’re there to protect the victim, the survivor, right? As a journalist, your responsibility is to protect the public, it is to serve the public interest. So you have two people, Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards. Both have very large platforms. I didn’t know I’ll be honest; I didn’t know Misty before I started reporting on IHOP and then I discovered she has a global following. She has recorded seven albums with I don’t know if they’re all with 4Runner Music. I think most of them are which is IHOP’s label. And you have Kevin Prosch who, even though he has a past, he confessed these adulterous relationships which when honestly, when you read about them, they sound like they were abused, because he clearly used his position and power in these cases. I don’t know whether any were congregants at his church or not. But certainly he has a predatory pattern and likely was abused in these cases.   Julie Roys  14:09 But again, you have two people in positions of power, at least ostensibly, right? And you have Misty who’s on the executive leadership team at IHOP, which is their highest level of leadership. You have her saying she’s gonna go to Israel and go serve in prayer houses there. And I know that people are emulating her worship style – a worship style that frankly, she got from Kevin, she talks about this romantic worship this intimate worship. I was in the Vineyard movement; parts of that I agree with it and parts of it, I go, this is like getting a little icky. And so I think there were just so many factors and then having on top of it. You have someone like Brent Steeno, who’s a former IHOP staffer who’s saying I was abused in this I was harmed because I was smeared by these folks. There were just these complex dynamics and as a journalist, I felt and I know a lot of people were like, there’s a number of journalists who got this story and didn’t report it. Actually, from what I’ve heard from Brent. Judy at the Star, for example, Casey Stars done some excellent work on this. Just hadn’t figured out how to report it. But from journalistically she was like, That was a good story. And I didn’t hear that directly from her. But I’m just as a journalist, again, I felt a responsibility to the public to report this story, because they were two public figures. And because and why didn’t I report it as abuse? Were there some red flags there? Did Kevin have a predatory pattern? Yes, he had a predatory pattern. Was he a celebrity? And did she look up to him? Yes, but the argument can be made, she was just as big a celebrity as he was. There was an age differential, but we can’t automatically say that because there was an age differential. That was.   DAVID POOLER 15:55 Yeah, that was abuse, right?   Julie Roys  15:56 You can’t do that. And then, and then you have just this blackmail element to the story, which clearly when there’s blackmail, that’s abuse. That happened in my understanding five years into the relationship. So it definitely became coercive,  but I’ll be honest, I didn’t know whether I could even report the blackmail aspect of this story, because I have one witness telling me that she said it was blackmail, and I have one text that seems to support that where she said she wishes she could destroy all the devices. But it was pretty circumstantial. And I’m glad I reported it, because I wanted to put the clues in there to folks that they could look at that and say, whoa, wait, this was not okay. But at the same time, journalistically, I just felt like my hands were tied in this particular case.   Julie Roys  16:47 Now, having said that, could I have done it better? Could I do it better? I’m always open to that. Yeah. And that’s why you have these kinds of conversations afterwards to say, okay, how can we do this better? I’ll just give you a chance to reflect on that.   DAVID POOLER 17:01 The thing that really stands out to me that’s worthy of discussion on this is her reporting that she’s not a victim. And I think that’s worth taking a deeper dive into, because I’ve met survivors at various points along their healing journey, and many early on, would not call themselves a victim, on some level. They would blame themselves, possibly, but not see themselves as a victim, certainly not understand that they were being abused. Like, how should I say this, it would cause so much cognitive dissonance if they’re not along in their healing journey, or don’t have a name for what’s going on. Because, honestly, to come to grips with the fact that I had been harmed and injured to that level, by someone that I had trusted my life with, my spiritual life with my mediator, if you will, with God. And I’ve trusted that and to come to a deep and abiding realization that I had been betrayed and exploited, and sexually used and potentially sexually assaulted by this person? That’s like too much. But what I’ve noticed is that along the healing journey, as the awakening and awareness happens, they can then point back and say, absolutely, I was a victim. So that’s one of the big unknowns with Missy’s journey. Six months from now, two years from now, will the story be different? Will she then say, yes, indeed, I was a victim, and here’s how I was victimized, and here’s how I was injured. But most of the instincts of people is to protect their abusers, to protect the church because they’ve been socialized to do that. It’s almost like if this gets out, or it’s known that we’ve, of course, the perpetrators would use the word affair, if we’ve had an affair that would cause people to fall away from the Lord and leave. So they feel this enormous amount of responsibility to protect the institution, to protect the leader, to protect their abuser. And, of course, to me, that’s one of the big question marks at play in the story with Misty.   Julie Roys  19:08 And interestingly, I had a number of conversations with Misty some on the record some off the record, some I can’t talk about, but I will say right before I published the story, I called Misty, and I told her, I know that you don’t believe you’re a victim. I believe you are. And I also told her, I’m not going to report the one thing that we didn’t report, because it would to me expose a victim. That’s their story to come forward with if they want to. But we had those discussions, and it was just, it was heartbreaking to me personally. Misty’s one of the most tragic figures in this whole story, and if you know anything about what’s happened with her and I think a larger context that I couldn’t tell in this story, your heart can’t help but break for Misty and this whole situation.   Julie Roys  19:58 One thing that’s challenging for me too though is, as a reporter, I have to report what people tell me. So if somebody says they’re not a victim, I have to say that person says they’re not a victim. And I know too as advocates, and this whole advocate space is a little bit like the wild West right now. We have some people that are really trained. I spoke of Lori Anne Thompson, she’s someone that went and got her master’s degree is very educated on real advocacy and how to come alongside people. But I remember at our 2022 RESTORE conference, she talked about advocates speaking for victims, and victims often say, speak for me, because I have no voice. And she’s like, Excuse me, unless you’re dead, you have a voice. You have a voice, and the job of advocates is to come alongside the victim, and allow the victim to tell their story, not to put words in their mouth or to tell them their story for them. And so it becomes very challenging when you have someone who’s maybe they’re living in an alternate reality, where they have taken blame for something they shouldn’t take blame for, or they have seen this in a certain context, where they see protecting the legacy of someone that you go, are you kidding me? protecting the legacy of this person, who’s an abuser? Why would you want to protect that legacy?   Julie Roys  21:14 But how can we, as a reporter, I have certain rules I have to abide by. As advocates, there’s a little more leeway. But how can we be helpful in this stage with people who, and right now I’m sure Misty is representative of an awful lot of people who may have been victimized by a system or by a person that don’t see themselves as victims?   DAVID POOLER 21:37 Helping people move from victim to survivor is huge. But I feel like I did something wrong, I’m really not a victim, I participated in this, right? Believe it or not, I actually still have some control. That’s one of the things I’ve noticed as a clinician. But when I say I’ve actually been victimized, that means I literally could have done nothing to stop it. It’s like it literally happened. I am powerless. That doesn’t mean their powerless going forward. But just the acknowledgement of the nature of the wounding and the injury, was this was totally done to me by someone else. And I think that’s really hard for people. For Misty and/or lots of other people in that sort of space, right? And I think part of it is having conversations like this, being able to have an adequate definition of adult clergy sexual abuse, to actually say, hey, it’s when a leader uses their power position, their authority to basically gain access sexually to someone under their care, or that they’re working with or supporting in some way. That person is dependent on them in some way. And they use that dependence as a way to be sexual with them. That’s adult clergy sexual abuse. And interestingly if someone’s 16, or 20, there’s nothing magical that happens when someone is 18. The same tactic someone uses to groom and exploit a 15 year old is the same that they would use to groom and exploit and be sexual with someone who’s 25. It’s the same dynamics. And so uncovering those dynamics, talking about how people are groomed, because that’s the thing, abusive leaders use the language, the culture, Bible verses, and even their authority, their pastoral authority, God is in this. So the Holy Spirit has told me; they use all that language to gain sexual access to somebody. And then when you look at that, it’s just grotesque, right? It’s predatory on the deepest level. Being able to just honestly have the conversation for the church to say, this is indeed happening in our midst. And we have very little in place to detect abusive people. We have almost nothing set up within our religious structures where people can go to report it, or a system that’s going to listen to it or believe the person.   DAVID POOLER 23:56 In my research, one of the things that’s most damaging, actually, to survivors is the church response. If that makes sense. It’s not just the nature of the injury itself. But it’s the way the institution fails to respond adequately, by believing them and supporting them and validating them and helping them get help, and then holding the abusive leader accountable or removing them from ministry or out of the way so they can’t harm anybody else. They we just tend to continue to elevate the abusive person and shove the victim right out the door, right? In the playbook of the evangelical world, but I’ll be honest, it’s beyond the evangelical world. I mean, there’s a case I’m involved with right now, where I’m going to be an expert witness, if you will, and it’s a much more progressive denomination. But the narrative is the same, oh, it was consensual. And it clearly was not. We really have a problem. And I’ll give you just a quick statistic. This is really old, but Diana Garland’s research going back to a study in 2009. She actually looked at what percentage of women who regularly attend church had an unwanted sexual advance from their church leader, and the unwanted sexual advance was framed in such a way, that it would be clearly wrong, if someone found out they would really have concerns about what had happened. But if you extrapolate this out to the average sized church and sort of the gender makeup of your average sized church. So if you take an average sized Church of 400, there would be seven women in every church of 400, in the United States, where this has happened. So again, it’s about 3%. So it’s not a huge amount, right? But it’s also something that we have to take very seriously. It is indeed happening. And I would say every church has someone who’s experienced some version of sexual exploitation or harassment by a church leader. We can have every year we do domestic violence months and things, but we ought to celebrate and honor those people who’ve been injured by clergy and say, you are among us. You are here. We care about you. We care about your experiences, and we know you’ve been injured within the church. And we’re doing something about it instead of just ignoring the problem.   Julie Roys  26:13 Well in this environment that you’re describing, where obviously we have predators, obviously, I’ll say allegedly, but it’s been certainly we have so many victims right now, or alleged victims that have come forth and said, Mike Bickle abused me, started when I was 14, or 15, or 19, depending on the particular story. But this seems like a man who was a serial predator, and preyed on the women that were under him, and had this persona of being hearer, and God spoke directly to him. And the angel Gabriel showed up, how could you possibly question this man of God? And then you have this whole history, this prophetic history, that seems like it was almost put on the level of Scripture. Like, you can’t question this history, like, this is what’s happened. And it was really so grandiose. I’m reading this, and I’m going, Whoa, like, Why didn’t red flags go up? And yet I heard from somebody recently who was like, yeah, it probably would have but he was accepted in mainstream evangelicalism, which to me is a whole other discussion. Like, why did nobody see that this was a problem? These are really grandiose things that he is claiming and stating very early on, and selling to impressionable young adults, men and women who are a part of this.   Julie Roys  27:30 But let’s talk about specifically at some place like IHOP where, and I’m not gonna say that abuse happens more at charismatic churches than non-charismatic, I’ve seen plenty at non charismatic. But I have to say, when you think that your leader is like God, in direct line with God, and you have this Moses model of leading, which is really an Old Testament, I won’t get into all of that. But I mean, this idea that God speaks to  your pastor like he spoke to Moses, and now he’s the Prophet and the word for you, or he’s the apostle and the word for you. And again, I see in the New Testament, a totally different thing where the gifts are available to everyone. There isn’t like one person who has a direct line to God. We all have a direct line to God in that sense. But speak to this particular system. What, again, we’re outsiders, although you are in the Church of God, which started with Assemblies of God, right? And the two were very connected.   DAVID POOLER 28:24 Same origins. Yeah, around the turn of the last century.   Julie Roys  28:27 Okay. And I was in Vineyard. There’s a lot that I absolutely love about charismatic denominations, and I love about the charismatic movement, and I’m not a Cessationist. But at the same time, I do think there are some things that are particular to these systems that can lend themselves to this kind of clergy sexual abuse.   DAVID POOLER 28:48 Absolutely. Yeah. Where I literally go back to is the clericalism. again. And I think it can be heightened in spaces like this, where you have a central charismatic leader, whose authority is almost unquestioned. Because what ends up happening is there’s a high level of dependence on everyone upon what they say, and what they do. What they say is okay, what they say is not okay. And it’s a diminishing of power among everyone else around their sense of personal agency, their ability to think critically, ask questions, dissent, push back, right? So none of that is tolerated. So when a system like that, if that leader crosses the line and wants to be sexual and says, it’s God’s will, no one’s gonna question, right? I mean, the system is set up to sort of make perfect victims; that it’s not just the IHOP system. There’s plenty of others, but we’re talking about that it literally sets people up to be exploited and victimized. I don’t mean to oversimplify it, but that’s it in a nutshell right there. And so one of the things I suggest in my research is a much deeper level of power sharing between leadership and laity, or congregants., right? A much more robust way of holding people accountable.   DAVID POOLER 30:12 The other thing I’ve struggled with is, so how do congregants benefit from clericalism? They don’t have to do as much work, they don’t have to do as much critical thinking, they don’t have to be at the table, being My Brother’s Keeper, really. They get to sort of offload all of that responsibility on to the leader. And the fact is, that’s not a great system. We need a much better system where people are empowered in congregations to really all be concerned about abuse, all be concerned about exploitation, and flip it to the other side to be concerned about flourishing, and well-being. And how do we have a really healthy congregation, right? Then if everyone’s really not at the table talking about that, and one leader is trying to tell you what a healthy thing is? You’re probably not. It’s probably going away off into the ditch, which is what we’ve actually seen had been happening at IHOP for years. There were people being injured and torn up and ground up under the machinery of this institution, right? In a sense people waylaid and victimized for years. And it just finally came to light. Because any dissent anyone speaking up or questioning or trying to bring it to light would have immediately been pushed out of the system. The system wouldn’t tolerate that.   Julie Roys  30:12 I’m trying to figure out how though, like when you’re in a system like that, I mean, you read the Scripture, it’s pretty clear. I mean, you have someone like Mike Bickle married, clearly shouldn’t be engaging in outside sexual activity. And yet, if you’re the recipient of his sexual advances, how do you put that dissonance together? And, and I know people are pushing back and saying, Well, okay, how did they not know that this was wrong? Or why when you’re in a system like that, what happens just psychologically, to put these two seemingly contradictory things together? How do you do that?   DAVID POOLER 32:09 Yeah. So honestly, your question gets at the grooming process. And what I’ve noticed with these predatory folks is they start creating a culture where more physical touch is okay. And most of the predators will test the people out, they’ll do a prolonged hug or other things. And they do this over months and months. And eventually, I can’t tell you how many times this happened. It would be so interesting to find out how many folks that I have this happened to, they’ll be like, Can I kiss your hand? and then can I kiss your neck? And then eventually, it’s a kiss on the lips. So it’s not just, you know, the adage of the frog boiling in the water; you don’t just drop them in the boiling water, it jumps out, or whatever. You slowly turn it up. These predatory folks have mastered grooming, and they will slowly blur and break boundaries over months and sometimes even years until they finally have the person have full access to them. And they’ll use whatever playbook they need, including the things I just talked about. But again, adding in the Scripture and those things. So by the time the person is, if you will, actually being sexual with the leader, they’re no longer trusting their intuition. So anytime someone’s intuition said something’s wrong, right? That’s the other thing about those systems is that intuition is tossed out like your gut reaction, that something is wrong, is squashed over and over and over to the point it doesn’t work anymore. So you don’t trust yourself at all. You’ve been socialized to trust the leader and their perspective.   DAVID POOLER 33:36 So in a sense, that’s how that dissonance occurs, its slowly broken down over time. So by the time sexual activity is actually happening, even though the person so honestly, the victim is actually I’ve heard this so many times, they literally feel insane. They  feel completely insane. Like, this can’t be okay, but yet, I’m being told it’s okay. What is wrong with me? It is an internal sort of soul injury of dissonance that’s ripping them apart. But yet they’ve been taught to conform, to stay in church and to keep trusting the leader no matter what because, of course, they know what they’re doing. God has called them, and God is in charge of this. All these things that get used to injure people. And this is the stuff we’ve got to really be talking about. In fact, I actually have a doctoral student right now. We’re working on a paper right now to identify the grooming tactics. So what we hope to do is spit in the soup of the playbook of predators, quite frankly, so that their playbook doesn’t work anymore. Maybe they’ll come up with new tactics, but at least the ones that have been regularly used and the survivors I’ve interviewed that won’t be accessible anymore. We’ll know how they do it. And so that when someone sees a leader doing something or saying something, they can trust their intuition that this information is now actually out for the public to consume and use to inform them to be, in a sense, a better citizen or a better participant or a better congregate, talk about this in the secular world, sort of the non-protecting bystander. We have so much of that going on right now in the church, where it’s like, I see something, I wonder, is that okay? Or when the pastor did that? But we’re just taught to where we don’t protect, we don’t intervene, we just stay back. Because that behavior of getting in and getting it messy, we don’t like that. But I honestly think that kind of messiness, and questioning, critical thinking is a part of what actually would make our churches way healthier.   Julie Roys  35:38 The problem is, you’re not allowed to question. If you say there is a problem, then you are the problem. I’ve interviewed so many people from IHOP, who said, Yeah, I would see women go into Mike’s office and spend an inordinate amount of time and like we didn’t have access to Mike like that. But why did these women who weren’t even necessarily very high up in the organization, were going into his office and spending all this time? Why are there locks on the inside of the office? Some of these things that are just bizarre, but he had ways of dealing with that. And I’m sure with his victims, when I’ve heard this from victims who thought they were in love their abuser, think they’re in love with their abuser. And then also think like with Ravi, it was like, you can’t expose me I need this because I’m under so much pressure. And I’m just human. And if I don’t have this kind of support from you, then I just can’t function and you’re critical to my functioning. And if you say anything, then oh, do you want to bring down the whole apologetics movement, or in this case, the whole prayer movement? You want that to be on you that you’ve just brought that all down? Even now, people are protecting the prayer movement. They’re protecting Mike’s legacy. They’re protecting something that has been shown to be fraudulent, not that the whole prayer movement is fraudulent. But certainly, whatever requires Mike Bickle as its foundation is not legitimate.   Julie Roys  37:00 What does a bystander do, though, and these are my sources that I talk to almost every day, right? And Brent in the story was a bystander, right? He’s a bystander, but he wasn’t just a bystander, if you believe his story, and I obviously did believe his story. Misty divulged a lot of these things to him, but then also confines him to secrecy. Like all of a sudden now, I remember when I was in youth ministry, when people would be like, I’m going to tell you something, but I don’t want you to tell anybody else. And I’d be like, no. Timeout timeout. You know, if there are certain things if you tell me, I’m responsible to tell somebody else. I’m trusting that you’re telling me because you trust me. And I will try to be trustworthy, but that trustworthiness may mean that I have to tell somebody about what you’re going to tell me. Let me just put that out there ground rules before you tell me anything further. Here’s Brent in this situation, though. Now he’s stuck with this secret. And what does he do? It’s ripping him up. It’s destroying him. What does he do? And what do bystanders do, or witnesses do in a situation where they see abuse? And if they come forward, as in this case, and this is a whole other dynamic too which maybe a follow up question to this is when the victim becomes part of the abusive system and begins harming other people? But what do you do as a bystander in that situation?   DAVID POOLER 38:20 Yeah, yeah, the complications are built into all of this. There’s not a pass, there’s not the one thing that you’re supposed to do. But I do think staying silent is not okay. And doing nothing is not okay. We have to do something. And I do think many people who bring up or confront a system where there’s a lot of power held in one person, or bring up something that’s of a major concern, they’re going to get injured by that system, because that system is protecting itself. And it’s protecting the power and the control that it has. And part of it is when someone’s bringing up something or pointing out something that’s wrong, or where there’s injury, it’s a threat to the system, if the system is that unhealthy, and it is abusive, it’s we don’t want to get found out. Yeah, so there’s no simple answer other than Yeah, I think people are going to have to take the risk and put their own neck out for someone else. Again, so anytime you stand up for someone who’s being injured, the likelihood of you being injured, too, is very high. It takes courage.   Julie Roys  39:29 It is and so often they do what they’re told to do in the church, which is go to your leaders within your organization. And sadly, those leaders within the organization they’ve been groomed to protect. And so they are going to as you say, they’re going to harm you. And people often say who made you judge and jury as journalists where we report on a lot of the stories? For one I’m not judge and jury. I report the facts. You’re the judge and jury. You are.   DAVID POOLER 39:59 Yeah. people make sense of what you’re reporting. Yeah,   Julie Roys  40:01 That’s right. I report the facts, you make sense of it. And I wish we didn’t have to exist. I wish the church had some sort of structures in place to police itself. And it does in some denominations. They don’t seem to be working very well, these structures that we have in place. I hope at some point, we at least I love that there’s 14 states where adult clergy sexual abuse is a crime as it should be. I hope that more states are like this. But it seems to me at the very least, there should be some sort of professional, just like when you’re a doctor, or therapist or whatever, there aren’t professional standards. I know, as a journalist, there are professional standards. You can go and read them, where the society professional journalists have put it out. This is what we adhere to, this is what we do. And we have to adhere to them. And if you don’t, then you can be disqualified. Do we need to get some system in place for licensing pastors?   DAVID POOLER 40:58 Wouldn’t that be great? The fact is, I think there is no way probably even in my lifetime that our society we can get there. Because currently what we have are different denominations that have varying ways of here’s the education that you know, some denominations might require having a Master of Divinity for ordination, some might require nothing. You can have a high school diploma or not even and go through a process. And you can get a ministerial ordination certificate online for free. It is the absolute Wild West, a completely unregulated space. Even though I agree, ideally, in an ideal world, absolutely, we should. But again, that’s the very nature of the question is why we have such a huge problem in our religious institutions right now is because of our lack of accountability. And so many people with power surround themselves by Yes men, yes women, yes people, right? who aren’t going to hold them accountable, who are just a part of that system of control and power and money. I mean, I don’t want to be too cynical. But I also want to be incredibly realistic. There are way too many leaders, if you will, doing what they do because it’s unregulated. They’re free to do whatever they want to do. They have an enormous amount of power and influence and money. And they’re going to keep doing it because it benefits them in an incredible way.   Julie Roys  42:26 Yeah. And unfortunately, I think there’s far too many pastors out there that don’t understand this and don’t understand this dynamic. And so they’re restoring these abusive pastors who, again, it’s not just a sin problem, I mean, there’s something deep, deeply wrong when someone is a predator like this and a serial predator. You don’t just confess it, and then go back to another church. Stephen Strang, who’s the CEO of Charisma Media, Charisma Magazine. He went on before Mike has given like a half apology that ever really isn’t an apology. He hasn’t even come close to owning this and repenting from this. And Stephen Strang saying, Oh, isn’t it a noble thing to restore people? I’ve always thought that was a noble thing. And so we just keep restoring these pastors. Talk about the pastor as a predator; should someone who’s abused somebody in this way ever be restored to a position of trust?   DAVID POOLER 43:26 In my opinion, after having done so much research on this, almost never. Like that would be the exception rather than the rule if anyone could ever return to ministry and influence people the way they had. Part of your question gets at something that I think we weaponize, which is forgiveness. We are actually using and weaponizing forgiveness as a shortcut. And actually, then what we do is we put the burden on the person who’s been injured, you just need to forgive. And once you’ve forgiven, then we can restore. It’s almost like forgiven, once we hear you’re okay, again, and that we’ll  put them back in ministry. So the burden is in the wrong place. The burden should be on the person who’s done the injuring, and go through an incredibly rigorous, even if they’re not restored in any particular way they need to make right the wrongs they’ve done. They literally need to take years to do the work to figure out what happened, why they did it, the exact nature of the injuries that they’ve caused, and figuring out ways to actually help heal those, right? That’s where the burden should be. So if someone were ever to be restored, it should be the exception. And to me, it would be years in the making. But typically what when we do remove someone from ministry, we send them off somewhere, and it’s not even really therapy, it’s some discipleship program somewhere that people go through for four months and say they’re restored, and we bring them back. That is completely inadequate. So I’m with you that yeah, in most of my writing, I’m just like, yeah, whenever this happens, it should preclude them ever having a job in ministry again. Because what for me as a social worker it would. If I were sexual with a client, I’d lose my license and I wouldn’t be able to work in my chosen profession. Why do ministers who have all this power and authority and esteem and represent God, get to just jump right back in? We’ve got it upside down right now.   Julie Roys  45:23 We do. And I think what people don’t realize is that, fundamentally, there’s deception at the core of this. So this is someone who is skilled at deceiving people. So how on earth do you know that this person is repentant? How on earth do you know if this person won’t reoffend? They’re a master manipulator and deceiver. You just don’t put people like that back in positions where they’re over people, and they have authority and a means of manipulating people. You just cannot do that. I look at certain pastors who have fallen. And I’m like, there are not enough years left in this person’s life to restore the trust they’ve betrayed. There’s just not. The only way you know if someone’s changed, is, over time, a long time in a community. And we’re sadly in a situation in evangelicalism where the pastor’s removed from community, especially in these mega churches, especially in these big movements, they’re removed from accountability, people don’t know them. And again, just ripe for this type of abuse.   Julie Roys  46:28 So, glad we’re talking about it. And I don’t want to not touch on something that I mentioned earlier, but we didn’t really dig into it. Talk about the victim, who then becomes a victimizer, who becomes a part of the system. I don’t know how common that is. I will say in my reporting, it hasn’t been all that common. But in this particular case, there’s at least some people saying there was Misty participating in some harm. I don’t think she saw it as that. But talk about that dynamic and how that happens, and how to deal with it.   DAVID POOLER 47:05 So to universalize, this on some level, we’ve all been injured, and we’ve all injured others on some level. So we can just sort of state that’s a fact about being human. But I would just say in my experience, most victims of adult clergy sexual abuse, they themselves do not go on to injure and harm others. However, I think some of the exceptions to that are when that person who potentially is being abused and injured is at the core and has power and has influence. And there’s something at stake in both the way that they’re protecting the system, and some of even protecting their own interests in some way, whether that’s financial, emotional, psychological, whatever that is. And I think when we’re backed into a corner, we’re likely to lash out and injure others. So it absolutely can happen. But I guess that’s the thing is like, where do you go back and tracing back by say, hurt people? Right? On some level, that’s exactly right.   DAVID POOLER 48:10 But I think what’s important in all this is teasing out some of these dynamics that, yes, someone may have been a victim, and then they have injured someone else in a certain way. They don’t get off the hook for that, right? They need to make that right, acknowledge that and own that. In any given day any of us can injure or heal. And I think part of what we have to just say is that all injuries are not the same. Right? When you’ve got a predatory person, deeply injuring someone who’s going to have major pain for the rest of their life. Right? I’ll just add a statistic. I just got a paper that’s under review right now. But 39% of the survivors of adult clergy sexual abuse that participated in my research, 39% have PTSD. The injuries are deep, abiding, and profound. This isn’t just a little fly by night, oh, this was no big deal. The data I’m looking at, are saying this is a huge deal. It’s causing post-traumatic stress disorder, a mental health diagnosis that has profound impact on how we function and think and navigate relationships. It’s a big deal.   Julie Roys  49:25  It’s not just adult clergy sexual abuse, the amount of spiritual abuse and what that does to people. I will never forget. And this was very early on in my reporting. When I was reporting on Harvest Bible Chapel and James McDonald and the harm he was causing people. And there was a couple that came over it was actually the former chairman of the board of elders at Harvest and his wife, and they had been out of the church for 10 years. They came over and I’ll never forget his wife was literally shaking, and she’s like, I’ve been out of it 10 years. She had never seen a counselor to get this diagnosis, but she’s like, I’m sure I have PTSD. She’s to this day and she was shaking, telling the stories; 10 years out of it.   Julie Roys  50:08 I remember somebody else I talked to said, his counselor asked him at one point, how often do you think about James McDonald? and he said at least seven times a week, because he knew daily, he still thought of the abuse that he had received. Again, no sexual abuse in this, just bullying and nasty spiritual abuse. And it is just such a scourge in our churches right now and something we don’t understand. And so I appreciate so much you reaching out. This is one story I have just agonized over before I published. I continue to agonize afterwards. Could we have framed something differently? I just think all of us, we need to be asking these questions need to be doing better at understanding it in the church and having more of these discussions. And so I’m very grateful for that. Is there anything that I haven’t brought up that as you’re looking at this particular situation, that you feel needs to be highlighted, or that we just haven’t explored yet?   DAVID POOLER 51:03 Maybe this is an interesting place for this to end. But around maybe the person who’s been injured, who thinks they’re in love with their abuser.   Julie Roys  51:13 Is that the Stockholm Syndrome?   DAVID POOLER 51:15 It can be, but I think, on its deepest level, is that this person has met a need for  the survivor. In other words, as a need for belonging, affirmation, feeling important, feeling valued, feeling essential, having a sense of purpose. And these predators actually exploit all of those very human normal needs that could be met in very healthy ways, as far as being a part of a congregation. But are met in a way that of course, you know, how I describe that grooming process. And it takes on a life of its own, but there’s this sense of this person loves me. And of course, and that I’m going to protect the person who I think loves me, and I love them, right? And so breaking that trauma bond, almost around that, is a huge part of recovery for people. I guess, if anything, I would just want to validate it’s a messy and complex journey for people. And what we’ve got to do better in the church is see it for the abuse that it is, and quickly come alongside people that have been injured in our midst and include them and embrace them and let them remain in our congregation. Because right now, the status quo is to push them out and exclude them and blame them and ask what they did wrong. Really, the reason we do that is our collective cognitive dissonance around the fact that we currently in 2024, have predatory leaders in our midst, all over the place, injuring people. We would rather believe that the church is wonderful, our churches are healthy, our churches are safe, our leaders are amazing. But it upsets our little utopia that we’ve created for ourselves.   DAVID POOLER 53:08 And so I guess that’s where I would end is that getting through this requires a depth of critical thinking, a depth of courage, a depth of awakening and self-awareness, a reckoning with ourselves in a way that the church just isn’t used to. But I think if the church can move in that direction, the church would be far more appealing to others. Look, here’s a place that’s wrestling with its own self, with its own questions, and its own failures in really authentic ways that are like really dealing with the hurts that had been caused and holding people accountable. Because right now, I can’t imagine people looking at some of the crises that are facing the church and being attracted to it at all. If anything, it’s gotta be nauseating, and repulsive. I don’t want anything to do with that.   DAVID POOLER 54:03 So that’s sort of my invitation, my call going back to just how messy this is. It’s being a Christian it’s not easy. It’s not for people who want an easy way or an easy path. In fact, it calls us to the depths of injuries and hurt. Yeah, even my own theology has changed as a result of looking at all of this, right? My theology is no longer super positive and super wonderful and just isn’t God great and isn’t being a Christian, super fun? No, it’s a lot of hard work. It’s grief. It’s so effort expended in ways I never imagined. But I honestly think, Oh, I’ll end with this. I think the survivors of this kind of trauma and injuries in our church actually are some of our future church leaders. They know best what a healthy church would look like. They know best what to avoid in a leader who would injure people. They know best what it’s like to actually heal from some of the deepest wounds that you could experience. Right? I don’t know, I have a lot of hope for where we are. But it’s going to include the voices of people who’ve been deeply injured in our spaces of adult clergy sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, some of the things that you cover and talk about. It’s those very people who are making their way through this that can lead us and bring us new light.   Julie Roys  55:29 I agree with that 100%. I think Phil Monroe, in the message that he gave to RESTORE in 2022 said something along those lines, and the sweetness when you are around survivors, and these are people whose faith has been through the fire, and some of them are clinging to just like barely clinging on to faith. But some of them also, if you come through this, and you even have a mustard seed left, that’s commendable. That’s all I can say. And so I think these folks are our teachers, they will be our teachers. And can I just say, with this particular story, I do pray for Misty, I really do. And I really, truly hope that she comes to a place of being able to tell her story truthfully to herself. She will find there is a great deal of love and support for her and for others who have been through similar things. Thank you, David. I so appreciate you joining me. I learned a ton, as always, just really wonderful. So thank you.   DAVID POOLER 56:33 Thank you, Julie. I so appreciate being here. What a privilege.   Julie Roys  56:37 And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And just a quick reminder, all of our content at The Roys Report is available free of charge. We don’t erect paywalls. We don’t make you pay for our conference talks. Everything is free and available to the public. 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