Podcasts about katie is

Special guest host Fr. Matthew Spencer Jean - If someone has the last rights and a little time passes, is there a way to know if they go straight to heaven or to purgatory? Connie - Regarding the Gospel Reading from yesterday: Why was the person thrown out because he didn't have a wedding garment. It seems harsh? Bill (19:07) - What profession of faith does an adult need to make to become Catholic? Deacon Wayne - I heard a long time ago that the wedding garment was something given to us by the King. So the king was wondering if the wedding garment was lost or sold by the person at the feast. Katie – Is the consecration saying, “My Lord and my God”, an indulgence prayer? What would be better to say? Alonso - Is it okay to convert someone's ashes into diamonds? Can I keep the ashes in my own house? Patrick - Is there symbolism to the 6 jars at the Wedding Feast of Cana? Mark - Is there still a Jewish covenant? Are there two covenants?

If you didn't know you will know now that Katie Is a fan of Heather McMahan! After keeping up with her for years and getting the chance to see her live she gets a special Dm!

Alright folks, here it is! The final episode of Season 1 of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast (keep an eye out for Season 2 in the new year!) - and we're ending with a bang! This week I'm chatting to Katie Greenall, theatre maker, writer, and performer of the award-winning autobiographical solo show ‘Fatty Fat Fat'. We speak all about Embodiment and disconnection from our body, and discuss how we can handle a funky body image day. They also give us the inside scoop on their upcoming show ‘Blubber'.Find out more about Katie here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here's the transcript in full:Katie: I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass-shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat, queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.INTRO:Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter.Today I'm sharing the last episode of Season One of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. I'll be back in January with ten brand-new episodes with some incredible guests. And in the meantime you can follow along on the Can I Have Another Snack? Substack where I'm gonna be sharing some really cool features over the holiday period including my emo kid Christmas playlist, an anti-diet gift guide, and some guest holiday pieces from Kristen Scher and Virgie Tovar. You're not going to want to miss them, they're seriously great and I can't wait to share them with you. So make sure that you're signed up to receive those posts at laurathomas.substack.comAlright team, I am so pumped to introduce you to today's guest. Katie Greenall is someone whose work I've followed for a long time, and I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation.For those of you who don't know Katie, they are a facilitator, theatre maker and writer living in London. She makes autobiographical work that often explores fatness, queerness, and community alongside making work with young people and communities across London. Previously, Katie performed her award-winning autobiographical solo show, Fatty, Fat, Fat and is currently developing their new show Blubber, which we're gonna talk about in this episode. We're also gonna talk about embodiment and feeling disconnected from our bodies, and how Katie handles a funky body image day. Before we get to Katie, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely reader-supported. We don't have sponsors or do adverts or anything like that. I don't make money from affiliate links. I'm not trying to sell you anything that you don't need. All I ask is that if you value the space and the community that we're building, then please consider becoming a paid subscriber.Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Yes, you get perks and bonuses and all of that great stuff. But more than that, you make this work sustainable and accessible for everyone. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's unaffordable for you just now, please email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with the word snacks in the subject line, and we will hook you up with a comp subscription. No questions asked. Also consider gifting a subscription to one of your pals this holiday season, or getting someone to gift it to you. Alright, team, let's get to our last guest of the season, Katie Greenall.MAIN EPISODE:Laura: All right, Katie, can you tell us who or what you are nourishing right now?Katie: I love this question. I would like to think that especially this week, I am nourishing myself. I am really trying to form some new habits this week. I've had a bit of a, I'd say a few big few months of lots of different things, particularly work-wise. And so this week I'm really focusing on building some new habits and just like getting my shit together a little bit.And so, I've really been finding that really nourishing for me. Uh, so I would say top of the list, I'm nourishing myself. That isn't usually the case. That's usually, if I'm being really honest and reflective, that self and nourishment is usually much further down. But I'm really kind of stepping into that this week, which is why having this conversation with you feels like really beautifully timed because, um, yeah, I genuinely for the first time in a long time feel like I'm doing some nourishing of myself.Laura: It sounds like that's kind of unfamiliar to you.Katie: Hmm. Yeah.Laura: I guess I have two questions on that. Like one is what, you know, what is difficult about that for you usually, secondly, you know, what is that, that self nourishment looking like for you at the moment.Katie: I think it's difficult for a number of reasons. It's difficult because, one, I work a lot, um, So a big part of my job is facilitating and holding space for other people. Um, predominantly that's working with young people in different theater settings. Like I run lots of young companies, I work in schools, or with other, in other community settings.So like my literal job is holding space for other people, um, maybe similarly to yourself, uh, or in a, kinda, in a very different way. But that idea of, of a big part of what I do is holding and hopefully nourishing other people, nourishing artists or, um, yeah, like young people, to be able to achieve what they want to achieve, to access new skills and stuff like that.And so often when I get that, a lot of that work happens in evenings and at weekends. And so just stuff like eating meals and going to bed and having any sense of routine, which is something that is really important to me, just gets pushed further and further and down the list. And the more, you know, it was just definitely not revolutionary, but like the more tired you get, the more you feel like you're, it's harder and harder to keep hold of any of those things. So that's one thing. I think secondly is that I've been taught I shouldn't be taking care of myself. That like I, that me and my fat body don't deserve care. And sometimes that is really hard to challenge. Sometimes it's really hard to have the extra energy or capacity to be like, Oh, not only am I gonna give myself the care or the nourishment, Which I think is such a beautiful word, but not, not only am I going to do that, but I'm also, that takes energy in itself. I also have to take the next level of energy, which is to do that in spite of a structure that is trying to stop me from doing that. And so it's really hard and I've spent a long time knowing that, now I've come to realise, understand more about fat liberation and the capitalist structure and diet culture and all of those things, the more I've realised I can't and don't want to go back to having, having those thought cycles. Sometimes I don't have the power or the capacity or the strength to, to challenge them. And so I exist in this sort of no man's land instead. And so yeah, it feels really nice to be able to have the capacity, and time and resource to be able to kind of apply that nourishment to to myself.Laura: Yeah, that's a really, um, there's something quite striking in what you've just said, you know, and I think a lot of us experience this from time to time, like intellectually understanding that we are being oppressed by systems that, you know, that don't care about our lives or don't care about our wellbeing, that only find value in us if we are producing and conforming and looking a certain way and et cetera, et cetera. And, and, and, you know, wanting to, you know, placing value in rejecting those systems. And also there's still being a huge barrier to overcome to access self care, to access self nourishment, to care for ourselves and, and sort of, I don't know, I'm just imagining this kind of liminal space, this no man's land that you were talking about, and I find that a lot of us probably feel stuck in that place quite often.Katie: Yeah, because there's a real resistance, like I'm, I'm resistant to regressing into this, this space that I, you know, I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.Laura: Yeah.Katie: I'd have glimmers of it and then be like, but it was so hard to hold onto, and I thought the only way that I could hold onto them more was, was to not be fat anymore.Laura: Yeah.Katie: And so I just, I utterly refute. I completely resist, going back to thinking like that. And so I would much rather sit in this no man's land space. But that being said, it's really difficult and it's meant that I have felt increasingly disconnected to my body in a way because I am reframing it as something that like, doesn't define my existence, or doesn't define my ability to achieve happiness or success or love or any of those things. The multitude of those. But I can't always work out how to achieve them. And so it's really challenging. And so it's felt like it's easier to sort of build some space between me and my body, rather than live that under fear of going back to a place that I don't wanna.Laura: Yeah. So many little, little threads that I want to tug on there. I suppose what I'm thinking about is just this, like the energy required to subvert the system and just say, No, I'm out When still existing and living within those structures, within the, those confines and, and all of the, you know, I suppose what we're talking to is this idea that yes, we can cognitively understand anti-fat bias or racism or capitalism or whatever structure that we're, we're naming, which they're all the same thing really. Let, let's face it, um, that, that, that is the issue, but still not, you know, we still need resources to be able to survive in those systems. And, you know, if we, you know, the less access we have to those resources, the harder our lives are. And so, you know, we can yeah, label something as anti-fat bias, but it still doesn't stop the system from, you know, perpetrating anti-fat bias whenever we need to go to the doctor or buy clothes or fly in an airplane or just, you know, walk down the street.Katie: And I think, you know, there is also a huge privilege in being able to decide when or when I do or don't want to engage with my body. And obviously sometimes I don't have a choice, um, often when then someone else enters my space and, um, Kind of those micro-aggressions or macro-aggressions, either from other people or structure, whether that's like societal structure or like the physical parameters of my space i.e. When I can't help but feel an arm of the chair digging into my side. Like, there are sometimes where I can't help but be faced with that. But I think, you know, it is a privilege to be able in my day to day life, to the moments when I can, to be able to choose whether or not I want to engage with my, with those things each, each day.And I, and I don't take that for granted. I don't necessarily find it easy, but I, I don't, I don't take those for granted. And that was because I am white and, middle class and, not disabled, and, and multitude of other things. But, um, it's really difficult and I guess when I'm making work about my body, I'm opting in to engage with it. And think that's probably why making work about my body is so important to me because I think it's a way for me to opt in and to also in like, to a great extent. I mean, it could definitely be better, but like I've also been paid to do it um, you know, I'm being paid for the labor of, of opting in to engage with those things, as I say, not a lot. And certainly I'm not being paid for every moment that I'm like going through that. But that's why I think it's really important when I'm making work about my body that, that I do make work about my body because otherwise, I, I wonder how much of my life I would just not, not feel embodied.Laura: But it, it's, it's so interesting, like I, I was just thinking as you were talking here about this idea of, you know, no man's land, being in this liminal space with your body and, like it sounds as though for you disconnection, disembodiment is, is a choice almost. And, or maybe that's not quite the right way of, of framing it, cuz I think that's maybe too simplistic a way to describe it. But really what I'm trying to get at is that oftentimes disembodiment and, uh, disconnection, dissociation are, are labeled or framed as this really negative really, you know, maladaptive is the, the word that we would use like in in the body image lingo, right? Like from an academic perspective, Right. But what I'm hearing from you is that it's a survival mechanism. It's a coping mechanism.Katie: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, I think about choice is really interesting. Cause like I definitely don't think it's active choice. I don't get off each day and go, or each week and go like, I'm choosing toLaura: Disembody. Yeah. Yeah.Katie: Um, there's clearly something is, like something within me is making that choice or something that's happening to me.But yeah, it's a hundred percent a survival technique but it's not necessarily one I'm ashamed of. I think I'm, most days I am proud of my fat body and I'm proud that I'm surviving in it. I am proud that I am still fat in spite of it all, that I'm honouring what my body needs and how it wants to exist in this moment. And I will like, whatever it is that I have to do in order to maintain that in a way that like, makes it make sense for me is something that, I'm not going lean away from. And I, and I think I begin to touch on this a bit in, in the show that I'm in the process of making at the moment, Blubber, which is like, I think towards the end of the process of making my last show Fatty, Fat, Fat, I was saying the same thing, you know, as is the nature of things when you perform something a lot or you talk about something a lot or, repeat yourself a lot. I was taking up the same space over and over again, or having the same conversations with journalists or audiences. But I was saying all the right things, but I wasn't, I wasn't connecting to them in the same way. And that's what this show, what Blubber's kind of came rooted in, is finding a way to try and feel more embodied, um, trying to feel more connected to a body that I've, that I'm proud to exist in, I think. And I'm proud to, to nourish and I'm proud to take care of, and I'm proud that still exists. And so it feels, I really want to feel connected to it. In a tangible way. Laura: I just wanna take a step back for a second for people who maybe aren't familiar with your previous show, Fatty, Fat, Fat, could you maybe just like give a just a very quick synopsis and then just so we can contextualise this conversation versus what you were talking about in that show.Katie: Totally. So, Fatty Fat Fat was my first solo autobiographical show. I started making it in 2018 after I just graduated from drama school. Kind of came out of, uh, frustration that lots of people in big bodies who work in the kind of entertainment, theatre, performing arts industry come against, which is like, I wasn't fat enough in inverted commas to be the fat girl in inverted commas um, or thin enough to be the normal girl in inverted commas. And so sort of, there was no castings, there was no jobs, there was, I was the fat, funny friend, etc, etc. And so it came out of, of a want to make work, but not seeing myself or stories or people like me really, um, reflected or, or being cast for. So Fatty Fat Fat was a show based on a series of anecdotes from my life where my relationship with my body changed because of other people's interactions with it.So they span from the age of 5 to 22. And they were micro-aggressions, um, generally either from family, friends or strangers that kind of, yeah, informed my relationship with my body and those were intersected with more kind of poetic movement moments that were rooted in where I was at in that process, present day. And also some kind of interactive moments that were talking about the wider fat liberation and fat acceptance movement. It was my coming out as being fat, I'd never called myself fat before I made that show. It was very much fat activism 1 0 1, and it's, you know, doesn't take away from my pride in that show. But it was time to leave it behind and, and Blubber really picks up from there.Laura: And I wanted to, so I, yeah, I just thought it would be helpful to give that kind of background what that show was versus this, this new show where it, it feels like a, Yeah, like you said before, trying to feel more connected to your body whilst, as we described before, living in systems that want that, you know, benefit from you being disconnected and disembodied. So I'm curious to know and I, I wonder if this kind of connects into this question of, of nourishment that we were talking about at the beginning and, and finding ways to nourish yourself, and that even in and of itself, being subversive as a fat person. What does embodiment mean to you? What does it look like? What does it feel like? You know, like, like we said before, sometimes it's held up as being this, this gold standard way of being in your body. Right? But I don't know that that's necessarily always true, and, and so I'm, I'm curious to hear from you. Yeah. Just tell me all your thoughts on embodiment.Katie: On embodiment. I think the short answer is I don't know what embodiment looks like to me. I think what I'm trying to work out, um, is the shortest and simplest answer. I think that embodiment can look like lots of things. So there is a version of embodiment for me that is being on stage right, I am acutely aware of everything that me and my body are doing that, especially as a solo performer that it is, I'm responsible for everything that's happening in this space. I'm like, whatever I do or say is queuing the next light or sound. I'm having a relationship to the audience. Yeah, they might be looking around the room, but like they've paid money to be there, to be there and watch me, or listen, and so like those moments, I am aware of everything. Like you learn, and like actors training about like this duality, you have to have a sort of outward eye but also an inward eye. So like which is where like, you know, practices like method acting and stuff like that become where you are like fully character all the time become a little dangerous.Um, and so yeah, my training is very much thinking about like, and what I kind of continue to pass on when I'm working with other artists is like working both ways. So, Yes, I'm saying the lines and I'm in my character, but also I'm inside, I'm thinking, Oh, am I connecting to my diaphragm? Can someone hear me? Someone's just dropped a prop over there and I need to make sure I move that out of the way before the big dance number, or whatever it is. You've got to have this duality. And so there's something about embodiment in that moment where you're like, I need to be aware not only of everything that's happening to me, around me, but also what's happening inside of me. And, and I'm really responsible for, for that. And obviously I have team that I definitely couldn't do without the team that work alongside me. But in those moments, you know, you couldn't, can't help but feel embodied. And so for me, that's why live performance is so important rather than working in film or TV or recorded media is, is because that aliveness makes me feel alive in a way that I don't necessarily know how to replicate in other, in other spaces, which comes with other things because it also is terrifying, incredibly anxiety inducing and complicated. And so it's not just as easy as standing up and being like, Here we go. But there are moments of that where you kind, when you're able to move through the fear, and you're not doing the show for the first time or something. You're like, I'm here, I'm feeling this, I'm doing this, and we're doing it together And that feels exciting.Laura: There's something, I mean, I've, I've seen both shows and there is something very like visceral and immersive about your performances. Like you're in this relationship with the audience, you're having this dialogue, this conversation with them, and I think, yeah, the word that you used, was it like, did you say vital? Vitality?Katie: Yeah.Laura: Yeah. You can perceive that from sitting in the audience. So yeah, I can, I can see how that, that that is a moment of, of connection and that's something that I took from Blubber. We were kind of talking about this off mic before that, and, and I don't know that this is necessarily how you were framing things, but, but it's certainly how I interpreted the show was that there is not this big like crescendo moment where you like, make peace with your body and then it's just like, you know, happily ever after, from, from there on out, that there was this real sense of, of moments of joy and comfort and connection in our bodies. And I'm gonna ask you about one of them in just a second. But, um, yeah, like that they were just kind of like peppered all over the place. Almost if we, we go back to that analogy that you used before, where you moved from that no man's land, where your body just kind of almost doesn't exist in a, in a way to being fully immersed and in your body and connected to it in this really positive and vital way.Katie: Yeah, I think that's such a lovely way of putting it. And, and the show doesn't crescendo in the same way. We, we spent a long time thinking about that in development we were like, Oh, where does the crescendo happen? Cause when I initially wrote it, it had about four ones rather than big one. And I think, um, It's a separate conversation to be had about like Western storytelling and what we, what that's, where that's rooted in and, and, and why we feel we need that and blah, blah, blah. That is for a separate, a separate conversation. But I really hear you. And the show has those kind of pockets of, of joy and reflection in amongst stuff that's really knotty and difficult. I think there's something for me in, Fatty Fat Fat ends with the line, I want my body back. Right? And so I sort of imagine that Blubber picks up going, Okay, here you go, imagining someone is going, All right, well there you are, here's the keys, what are you gonna do about it? Like, what happens now? And, and I think that's why this conversation about knowing's life is really pertinent to me because it's like, cool, if someone puts me in the driver's seat of my own body, do I even know where the pedals are anymore? I really know what all the buttons do? Do I know what feels good or what doesn't? Like okay, so yeah, I've got the keys, but how do I take control? How do I drive on the open road with all, Like, how do I make it feel like convertible, uh, with my, you know, the sea air in my hair? Singing to a song. Like driving isn't like that. You might get pockets of that, but other times you're stuck in a traffic jam or you can't start, or you need maintenance, or it's just like you're using it from, gets from A to B. Laura: Yeah,Katie: And I, and I think Blubber is a little bit about reflecting on my body as a vehicle and the times where it works and it feels like it's mine and it feels like I'm in it and I'm, I'm driving it. And other times where it feels like I'm, I'm still learning what it can do and, and what feels safe and, and all of those things sit within the structure of whether or not they're possible or impossible, or I'm allowed in inverted commas or not allowed or, you know, all of those things then have a context that sits around them.Laura: I think it's so important to speak to the messiness, the stickiness, how complicated it is to have a body, because I feel otherwise we, we fall into the trap of presenting binaries around our bodies, like either love your body and always be completely grateful. You know, I've spoken a lot on this series in particular around having a baby and how we're presented with these that very either or options of like, well be grateful cuz your body did this miraculous thing. Right? Or, change your body and get it, you know, get your pre-baby body back or, you know, so these really, like, I want more options than that to, to feel about my body. And I want to have those moments of joy and connection and comfort in my body. And I also want to scream when I'm having those really difficult days in my body and feeling the, the clout of all of those systems that, that really crush us in a metaphorical sense.Katie: Yeah, totally. And I, and I think, I thought for a long time, particularly with Fatty Fat Fat and maybe less so with Blubber, but I think it's, if anything, it's just got deeper, is that like I thought I couldn't make a show about fatness until I was, until I loved my body, until I'd reached that absolute nirvana, um, and I was completely at peace and could run around naked and do a back flip and everyone see all my, you know warts and all and I'd be like, Oh, I don't care. And I thought I couldn't make a show about fatness until I'd felt like that, because I thought it was either where I was currently at or that space and there was nowhere in between.And it was when I kind of realised that there could be some spectrum of that that, that I realised that kind of allowed me to get myself permission to make, to make the work. And, and if anything, Blubber has just got deeper and messier in the complexities of that. And it's really difficult.And I remember we had a time in, uh, the development of the show earlier in the year, in January. We were doing some movement work and I felt really challenged by something and got quite emotional after we'd just done an exercise in the room and we were reflecting on it. And, and I remember sort of sharing with the team that like, I just felt really ugly, I felt like my body didn't look nice and I was having, you know, I'm making something, you know, It was an exercise. It was, it was nothing, like, we were just trying something out and, and I, and I suddenly became really aware of like, why did that find so difficult? Because I, I was like, Oh, Cause I'm, I'm emphasising things that I, that I don't want to, or I'm, I'm feeling, I'm feeling the, the ugliness of, of my body, not because it's fat, just because I'm putting myself in weird positions.I'm screwing myself up. I'm, I'm folding all my chins in, all in on themselves. And like, and like some, some days that stuff doesn't bother you. But like in that moment I was just like, it's all very well, like sharing a lot of yourself with an audience, but then sharing something with a room full of strangers that like is not a version of yourself that you would show it, you would want to show anyone. How, how do we hold those things? How do we hold that messiness and ugliness that we all hold, but in my body it means something so different. And me sharing that and giving that to you means something really different. And that was a really useful learning for me and just being like, Oh, that is a limit. I mean, we've always thought about that whenever we've been making work, but like there is a limit of things that, that I'm comfortable doing without putting myself in danger.Laura: Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. There's so much to think about there. And I suppose as, as you were talking about all of those parts of yourself that we're taught to conceal and hide and push down, and as, all I was thinking about is just this idea that those are all things that we've been taught to feel shame about.Shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. If your body looks, you know, if you have double chins or triple chins or you know, if, if, if you don't, you know, if you turn side on and you have a belly or all of these things, we only ever see these like flat one dimensional representations of bodies that have been, you know, through layers and layers and layers of modification that it's so shocking, it's so shocking to see a real body. In all three dimensions to taking up space. And that shouldn't be shocking, but what I'm hearing you say is that there's something really, really unsafe about, you know, putting your body in those positions.Katie: Because I think there's still stuff that I'm unlearning about, like palatable fatness and being, you know, there's so many people that have said it, you know, say it far more articulately than I will or can about like the, you know, good fatties and bad fatties and how we can navigate the cultures that exist and the, and the barriers in society by demonstrating that we can be feminine or beautiful or graceful or healthy or educated or whatever it is in order to kind of overcompensate, for this like big glaringly obvious thing, which is my fat body and or, or fat bodies generally. And I think there was something that I learned in that moment about like how, how deeply that goes still. And, you know, I don't mind making a fool of myself. I don't mind showing bits of myself in a way that maybe you know, 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago, I might have had more of a challenge with. I don't mind exposing myself. There's some video content in the show, which is like really zoomed in, uh, bits of my body where you see like my bitten fingernails or my, I've got lovely skin, I'm very lucky, but I always get a series of spots underneath one, my right. You know, it's just like, and those things are blown up really big for an audience to make it, you know, because my whole, to show my whole body can be a universe, right? And I don't think a version of me before that, before would've been able to cope with that.And there are things that I'm, that I'm willing to find the imperfections now. I'm willing to share those with the audience. But I'm, I think there is something about like, you know, that initially Blubber came from this idea of wanting to feel beautiful. I don't think I've ever felt beautiful. I still don't.And I think I wanted to make a beautiful show so that some people would watch it and be like, Wow, you are beautiful because you made beautiful work. I've, I've been lots of other things. I am lots of other things, but that's just not something I don't that word specifically I don't think I've ever felt that sensation.And so there was something in that moment of being like, I can be, I can not be that. I can be somewhere in the middle. I can go below the middle two. But I, like, I don't want to show all my deepest insecurities, difficulties, no matter how much I'm learning or challenging or understanding why I feel that way about myself.But like no wants to share the worst stuff with an audience. And I don't think it's fair to an audience either.Laura: I'm, I'm feeling quite emotional listening to you talk particularly about that, that sort of sequence that was projected up onto kind of this like really ethereal netty curtainy sort of situation because like I sitting in the audience found that completely breathtaking. That and the part where there's a lot of kind of like red light projected on you and it felt sort of like you were being held in this like womb. I don't know if that was the vibe you were going for.Katie: Yeah, definitely womb like, because it's, that's sort of inside the body of a whale, so um, womb, internal, all of that sort of stuff. Definitely.Laura: Yeah. Both of those things. Just, um, I don't know. There was something about that. Both of them felt very, very vulnerable, but there was something, so, I don't know that beautiful is the right word, because that feels kind of like that trivialises what it was.Katie: And I think that's why the show is less about beauty now because, I think as we went on it, like actually what it was, was about feeling. And I think as someone that's been socialised as a woman, I've been taught that beauty is the ultimate goal. And or the antidote to my fatness. And like, like so many, people who live in fat bodies, I was, you know, told a lot growing up, you would be so beautiful if you weren't fat. And like, I, again, we don't, there's a not unique experiences and, and there's so many conversations that are, have been had and are being had about like, you know, beautiful being be able to coexist with fatness. And I, and I look at, I, I feel so lucky and grateful that I look at fat bodies, other people's fat bodies now, and I, and I think they are beautiful. But I never felt that in myself and, and really and in reflection, I think it's because I want to feel sensation. And I think it goes back to our previous conversation about embodiment and disembodiment, is I felt like I just wasn't feeling anything either in or around my body or within my body because I was like, feeling was such a big part of who I was. Feeling huge emotions is such a big part of me, particularly being an artist. And I think I was just like making so much space between me and my body that I wasn't feeling any of those things. And so it wasn't really about beauty, it was about feeling held or feeling something monumental or extraordinary or new or astonishing or even awful or trying or terrifying. But like between the onslaught of news, a pandemic, government crisis, a you know, everything else on top of experiencing the world in a, in a marginalised body that intersects different marginalisations, but obviously not all of them. You just, at some point there becomes a disconnect. And so, yeah, I really hear what you're saying about those things and I, and I see and agree with you. And so I think that's why the show wasn't about beauty anymore. It was about sensation, like just being able to feel and connect with something on my body.Laura: Yeah. And, and, and I suppose what you're naming there is also dissociation disconnection. That can be really powerful, really useful. I mean, life saving survivals tools. And they have a cost. They come with this, this huge price, which is, you know, not being able to sense or feel or emote these, you know, these things that you know, to, to bring it back again to embodiment are really vital to you, you know, to feeling that aliveness, that connectedness, that humanness.Katie: Totally. And also to go back to your kind of your first question, nourishment, because it also meant that I wasn't nourishing my body, um, because I was so disconnected from it or disembodied that I wasn't feeding it properly, I wasn't nourishing it in the things it consumed in the media, wasn't nourishing it in, in loads of different ways because, because I wasn't connected enough with it to be able to empathise or to be able to understand what, what it needed. And so I think these things are all, all so connected. Because without that, without that embodiment, it's really hard to make offers of meaningful nourishment. I can kind of know to go to bed or know to eat some toast, but like, or know not to spend 10 hours on TikTok. sometimes, I mean all of those things also their placeLaura: But, But yeah, all of those things can like spending 10 hours on TikTok can be nourishing sometimes when you need But I think what you're speaking to is like the fine tuning of that. And knowing when, Yeah, it's 10 hours in TikTok versus, No, actually I need to like get outside or talk to a, another humanKatie: Or go to sleep. Do you know what I mean? Like, know when to say no. Know what my boundaries are. I've been really thinking about something that, Candice Brathwaite said online, in some point in the last few months about like, laziness and idleness and I think as a fat person you are told you are lazy and I've been called lazy as long as I can remember. And so I'm doing a lot of work at the moment with myself about what are things that I truly believe and what are things that I am thinking, what are things truly exist and what things have I been told? And cuz sometimes they are the, like, those things kind can coexist.And so there's the thing about laziness, I'm thinking at the moment. Cause I do think I'm naturally quite a lazy person. Like I could, I could easily sit on a sofa and, and not move for, for days. I, that's fine. Like I'm, I'm into it. I'm not, I'm not mad at, But part of me's like, is that true or is that just because I've been told that that's true.And I, and I'm something that Candice has said recently online was like about how, um, sometimes the best way to take care of yourself is, is to challenge those instincts.Laura: Mm.Katie: Actually for me, some of the best ways I used to take care of myself, and I'm still trying to work out what that looks like in present day, was kind of before pandemic, um, before 2020, cause the pandemic's still happening. But, um, before 2020 anyway of like, some of the best ways I used to take care of myself was actually saying yes and going out and doing things rather than saying no and staying in.Laura: Mm-hmm.Katie: Because I have chronic FOMO and I love being busy, I love getting my en you know, I get my energy from other people.I love living my life like that. And so there's a version of me now that's like, oh, is that still true? Or do I need to actually stay home and take care of myself or eat, not, you know, go to bed early or whatever, Or am I being lazy? And I, I, I'm really trying to connect with what is true about me. Um, and that's something I'm finding really difficult at the moment, but, I'm really trying to engage with, and I think, again, links to lots of things we've been talking about.Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. And I love, I love that kind of distinction that you made. Like is this something, what, Tell me again what it was. Is this something I'm thinking?Katie: Is this something I'm thinking I've been told or is true?Laura: Yes. Okay. Yeah, and I think that that's such a, a helpful way of, of reframing some of those, those thoughts and beliefs that come to our mind. And I have, I have such a visceral reaction to the word lazy because I like firmly believe that that is just a social construct designed to make us feel bad about rest.Well, on that note, the last question that I had for you, and, you know, given all of the complexities, um, you know, and the, the stuff that you're kind of really in process of, of figuring out at the moment, I would love to know who or what is nourishing you right now?Katie: First of all, my housemate has bought me a really delicious pan aux raisin from the coffee shop up the road, and it is sitting in a paper bag behind the door.Laura: It's waiting for you,Katie: behind meLaura: Your stomach, grumbling stomach knows it's there, it's ready.Katie: That is the thing that is about to nourish me and, um, and she is just, um, being proud of that. I think, the things are nourishing me is routine, trying to find structure and routine in my life.That's something that's really nourishing me at the moment. Something that is also nourishing me is really leaning into my deep love and interest in the Real Housewives, um, That is something that's deeply nourishing me at the moment. And being able to talk in depth with friends about that is really nourishing parts of me that I didn't know I needed.Laura: Okay. And you will not be surprised to learn that this is not the first time that this, that this has come up podcast this season.Katie: Wow.Laura: So I talked to Clara Nosek, aka Your Dietician BFF. Had a great conversation. Highly recommend go back and listening to that. And her, the thing that's nourishing her right now is reality tv, but very specifically Housewives,Katie: Great. So I'm a big reality fan, reality TV fan, but particularly Housewives. So, I could, like, even now, just the thought of being able about it, especially in a public forum is like really make me froth at the mouth. Um, some young people I work with, was working with, uh, like as the sort of present for the end of the project, they very sweetly got me a seal cuddly toy with some like gold hoop earrings and they um, called it the Real Housewife of Shepherd's Bush, which is where we were working together. So, yeah, that's something that's really nourishing me right now. Finding these pockets of sunlight. Um, hopefully if you are, if and when you're listening to this, you might be able to find one of those too, but I dunno, it seems like from behind you, you've got a lovely bit of sunshine, your side.But yeah, there's some beautiful kind of sunlight pouring into my windows and I've got this sort of glitter ball Laura: Is that what it is?Katie: globe.Laura: Oh, okay. I've seen these little like,Katie: Pockets, Yeah. There's, so every now and then my living room, um, if the light is at the right angle, makes these sort of spots of light appear. And so all of those things feel really nourishing, I think for one of the first times in my recent life, like my work isn't nourishing me, uh, at the moment and like I'm looking to other things to hold that with me, and I think that's really exciting.That doesn't mean. It's not satisfying or it's not, not doing what it needs to do or like, it just means it's not the sole focus of that, where that nourishment is coming from. And I feel really excited by the prospect of that and that feels quite new. And finally, I've got a, I'm going to see all being well, I'm going to see, um, Adele in Las Vegas next March. AndLaura: There was like a wry smile, and I was like, I'm desperate to know what it is.Katie: So currently all roads lead to Vegas and that is deeply nourishing me, cuz it's like the end of the winter. It just feels, it's not so far away that it feels impossible, but it feels tangible, but enough time to get excited. So like that is also something me. So like,Laura: focused, you're focused on getting there.Katie: so there's, there's a real mix and I think variety is a spice of life. You know, I'm a freelancer. I'm, although I've just said all that stuff about routine and structure, like, I feel excited when I'm bouncing around and doing multiple different things. And so, trying to find that balance, um, feels exciting and, hopefully nourishing as well.Laura: It's that, I don't know if this like speaks to your experience, but like I've seen a lot of people online and it like resonates with me as well. Like talk about that neurodivergent urge towards chaos, but needing routine and structure like the routine and structure being really helpful and useful, but being the exact opposite thing, like also feeling like suffocating at the same time.Katie: Absolutely.Laura: All right. Before we finish up this episode, I would love to know what you're snacking on. So it can be a literal snack if you want, although we've covered off the pan raises end, so check that box. But it can be a book, a podcast, a movie, a person, anything. So can you share what you're snacking on right now?Katie: I am snacking on, Oh, there's so many things I could say. I had something in mind but I'm changing my mind. I am snacking on, I'm really trying to, I'm gonna go for like a literal thing I'm snacking on.Laura: Go on.Katie: And I'm really reaching back into, um, like childhood foods, the foods that maybe I didn't have growing up or, thought I couldn't. And, and so I'm really leaning into like the cheese string, the fruit winder, the penguin, the Frosty cereal bar. Those are my, like ones of choice, but also, Primula, the cheeseLaura: My God. Yeah. Yeah.Katie: on Ritz crackers.Laura: my God. Love RitzKatie: That is, that is like a real peak school time snack that we used to have at, like, at the end of term.And so, yeah, it's, those are the things I'm stacking on at the moment, just like really trying to find that joy in those little snacks again. Those are the things that I'm loving.Laura: so funny you say that cause I was just in Scotland last week and my friend and I bought a pick and mix and I do not remember the last time I bought a pick and mix and I was just like, chomping on these cola bottles, like the sour sweets. It was amazing. So yeah, I'm right there with you with the like, nostalgic, nostalgic foods.Okay, so my thing is a book, I'm like halfway through reading it, which I'm always a bit like, can I really recommend a book when I'm not completely finished it? But like, I think I know enough to know that it's worth reading. And this is someone that I'm really hoping will come on the podcast next season, but, so the book is called Small Fires. And it's by Rebecca May Johnson. And she is the co-editor of Vittles, which is a great Substack. I really struggle to describe what it's about because basically throughout the course of the book, she cooks the same recipe over a thousand times. And she talks about, she talks about cooking and food through this, like political lens is kind of the only way that I can think, or like I can describe it. But she's talking about appetite and she's talking about how kind of, in the same way that you were talking about that, like duality between the artist and the audience.She's talking about like this sort of reciprocal relationship between a recipe and the person that's cooking it and the food, and it's just such a, like, mind blowing way to think about food and cooking and it's just really cool. I, you just need to read it. Maybe I'll link to like, about review in the show notes, but Yeah, so it's called Small Fires by Rebecca May Johnson and it's just like, it would make a great Christmas present for someone.So yeah, that's my snack. All right, Katie, tell us, tell the audience where they can find out more about you and your work.Katie: so you can find out more about me and my work on, um, my Instagram or Twitter, which is @katie_greenall on both, um, or my website, which is www.katiegreenall.com. Those are the best ways to find me.Laura: Perfect. And I will obviously link to all of that in the show notes. And yeah, I have really, really enjoyed this conversation. It's felt really nourishing. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how Blubber sort of evolves in the direction that you take it in. And as soon as you know when and where that's gonna be, I will be sharing about it and let the audience know where they can come and see that show.So, thank you so much for being here and being so candid and honest about your relationship with your body, your relationship with food, and yeah, just all the things that you've been thinking about. It's been really a great conversation. So thank you.Katie: It's been a joy. Thank you so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura Thomas: Thank you for listening to Season 1 of Can I Have Another Snack? If you've enjoyed these conversations, then please rate and review in iTunes and share these episodes with your friends. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This season wouldn't be possible without your support so thank you for being here and valuing my work and I will catch you in January, when we'll be back with a whole host of really cool guests exploring appetites, bodies, and identity. Talk to you then. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Katie IS a warm, generous, talented and enthusiastic storyteller. What Katie IS NOT is an aggressive self-promoter. She has no twitter account and her Instagram is private. So, if you want to learn more about her work you could do worse than getting to know New York's self-proclaimed "second longest running personal storytelling show" The Nights of Our Lives where  Katie is a frequent performer.  You can also follow The Nights of Our Lives on Twitter or subscribe to their podcast.I had a lot of fun digging into my personal treasure trove of "dance-inspiring" music this week to make a playlist called A Steam Punk's Journey.  I found myself agreeing with Myles' review of Little Bird (ok, but not really for me). Despite this, though, it did lead me down some interesting (mostly 70s) rabbit holes. I hope you enjoy it.Make sure you follow The Volume Knob on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or at our website volumeknob.net.  While you're on the web, don't forget to sign up for the mailing list! I'd love to keep you up to date on the latest and greatest from Planet Volume Knob.And if you have a story about the song that saved your life be sure to send it to me at volumeknobpod@gmail.com.

Aimee: So your favorite age group is the junior high school age.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Do you have much experience teaching younger children?Katie: Younger children like toddler age?Aimee: Well, how about elementary school?Katie: Yeah, elementary school. I've been teaching for about five years, five or six years. They're fine. You just have to be a bit silly with those kids.Aimee: Yes.Katie: Have a good time. Can't really be too serious when you're teaching young kids because they're still kids.Aimee: That's true. So how about younger than that? How about the kindergarten age? How are they for you?Katie: They're probably my archilles heel. I'm not great with kindergarten students or younger than that because they don't respond to reason.Aimee: Right.Katie: Yeah. So they – I mean, yeah. They're difficult for me to teach. I prefer teaching older students.How about you? What kind of age range do you like teaching?Aimee: I think I appreciate all parts of all age groups. Every group has its pros and cons. Recently, I've been teaching university students, and I think I'm remembering how much I enjoy it because, you know, they are adults and you can teach them like adults. And you can still have a bit of silly, fun with them, too.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: So these days, I think I prefer teaching the older students, university age students. You can, you know, you can really go into topics quite deeply.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: And you can get some interesting answers from some students. Other students, of course, you can't.Katie: Everyone is different, right?Aimee: Yes. You just have to find a way of teasing, teasing their potential, of all of them, I think.Katie: Is there a group that you don't like teaching?Aimee: I'm not used to junior high school children, junior high school students. I don't have any experience with them. So that would make me nervous, I think.Katie: How do you think they would be different to university students?Aimee: I think, from what I mentioned before, the teenagers, the hormones. I think that would be different. There's, you know, it's bubbling inside them, all of these changes of feelings and emotions. And they have so many things to deal with; pressure of growing up. And I think that can be more challenging.But I think it's important as a teacher to try to remember what it was like when you were that age.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: I think that's the biggest thing that will help you.Katie: Absolutely. So what do you think about teaching younger children like babies? How are you with that?Aimee: I do really enjoy that. Babies are awesome. They have their own set of needs. But usually, the very young classes come with, you know, the parents are there, too. So it's kind of a group-led situation, teacher-led group. And yeah, it's good fun for me. They're very cute and squishy. And very – not uncontrollable – what's the word?Katie: Unpredictable?Aimee: That's it. Completely unpredictable. You know, one day they can be in the best mood ever, and then the next day, they're just a nightmare.Katie: I think that's why I'm terrified of them, because they're so unpredictable. I don't like it.Aimee: Yeah. That's true. And the bodily functions too, you know.Katie: Yeah, no thanks.Aimee: There's all of that.Katie: Yeah. I'm not prepared to deal with that. No, thank you. No, thank you. No bodily functions.

Aimee: So your favorite age group is the junior high school age.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Do you have much experience teaching younger children?Katie: Younger children like toddler age?Aimee: Well, how about elementary school?Katie: Yeah, elementary school. I've been teaching for about five years, five or six years. They're fine. You just have to be a bit silly with those kids.Aimee: Yes.Katie: Have a good time. Can't really be too serious when you're teaching young kids because they're still kids.Aimee: That's true. So how about younger than that? How about the kindergarten age? How are they for you?Katie: They're probably my archilles heel. I'm not great with kindergarten students or younger than that because they don't respond to reason.Aimee: Right.Katie: Yeah. So they – I mean, yeah. They're difficult for me to teach. I prefer teaching older students.How about you? What kind of age range do you like teaching?Aimee: I think I appreciate all parts of all age groups. Every group has its pros and cons. Recently, I've been teaching university students, and I think I'm remembering how much I enjoy it because, you know, they are adults and you can teach them like adults. And you can still have a bit of silly, fun with them, too.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: So these days, I think I prefer teaching the older students, university age students. You can, you know, you can really go into topics quite deeply.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: And you can get some interesting answers from some students. Other students, of course, you can't.Katie: Everyone is different, right?Aimee: Yes. You just have to find a way of teasing, teasing their potential, of all of them, I think.Katie: Is there a group that you don't like teaching?Aimee: I'm not used to junior high school children, junior high school students. I don't have any experience with them. So that would make me nervous, I think.Katie: How do you think they would be different to university students?Aimee: I think, from what I mentioned before, the teenagers, the hormones. I think that would be different. There's, you know, it's bubbling inside them, all of these changes of feelings and emotions. And they have so many things to deal with; pressure of growing up. And I think that can be more challenging.But I think it's important as a teacher to try to remember what it was like when you were that age.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: I think that's the biggest thing that will help you.Katie: Absolutely. So what do you think about teaching younger children like babies? How are you with that?Aimee: I do really enjoy that. Babies are awesome. They have their own set of needs. But usually, the very young classes come with, you know, the parents are there, too. So it's kind of a group-led situation, teacher-led group. And yeah, it's good fun for me. They're very cute and squishy. And very – not uncontrollable – what's the word?Katie: Unpredictable?Aimee: That's it. Completely unpredictable. You know, one day they can be in the best mood ever, and then the next day, they're just a nightmare.Katie: I think that's why I'm terrified of them, because they're so unpredictable. I don't like it.Aimee: Yeah. That's true. And the bodily functions too, you know.Katie: Yeah, no thanks.Aimee: There's all of that.Katie: Yeah. I'm not prepared to deal with that. No, thank you. No, thank you. No bodily functions.

Aimee: So your favorite age group is the junior high school age.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Do you have much experience teaching younger children?Katie: Younger children like toddler age?Aimee: Well, how about elementary school?Katie: Yeah, elementary school. I've been teaching for about five years, five or six years. They're fine. You just have to be a bit silly with those kids.Aimee: Yes.Katie: Have a good time. Can't really be too serious when you're teaching young kids because they're still kids.Aimee: That's true. So how about younger than that? How about the kindergarten age? How are they for you?Katie: They're probably my archilles heel. I'm not great with kindergarten students or younger than that because they don't respond to reason.Aimee: Right.Katie: Yeah. So they – I mean, yeah. They're difficult for me to teach. I prefer teaching older students.How about you? What kind of age range do you like teaching?Aimee: I think I appreciate all parts of all age groups. Every group has its pros and cons. Recently, I've been teaching university students, and I think I'm remembering how much I enjoy it because, you know, they are adults and you can teach them like adults. And you can still have a bit of silly, fun with them, too.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: So these days, I think I prefer teaching the older students, university age students. You can, you know, you can really go into topics quite deeply.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: And you can get some interesting answers from some students. Other students, of course, you can't.Katie: Everyone is different, right?Aimee: Yes. You just have to find a way of teasing, teasing their potential, of all of them, I think.Katie: Is there a group that you don't like teaching?Aimee: I'm not used to junior high school children, junior high school students. I don't have any experience with them. So that would make me nervous, I think.Katie: How do you think they would be different to university students?Aimee: I think, from what I mentioned before, the teenagers, the hormones. I think that would be different. There's, you know, it's bubbling inside them, all of these changes of feelings and emotions. And they have so many things to deal with; pressure of growing up. And I think that can be more challenging.But I think it's important as a teacher to try to remember what it was like when you were that age.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: I think that's the biggest thing that will help you.Katie: Absolutely. So what do you think about teaching younger children like babies? How are you with that?Aimee: I do really enjoy that. Babies are awesome. They have their own set of needs. But usually, the very young classes come with, you know, the parents are there, too. So it's kind of a group-led situation, teacher-led group. And yeah, it's good fun for me. They're very cute and squishy. And very – not uncontrollable – what's the word?Katie: Unpredictable?Aimee: That's it. Completely unpredictable. You know, one day they can be in the best mood ever, and then the next day, they're just a nightmare.Katie: I think that's why I'm terrified of them, because they're so unpredictable. I don't like it.Aimee: Yeah. That's true. And the bodily functions too, you know.Katie: Yeah, no thanks.Aimee: There's all of that.Katie: Yeah. I'm not prepared to deal with that. No, thank you. No, thank you. No bodily functions.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

Katie is a YouTuber that makes content around leveraging Social Media and online branding. She has been on YouTube for a very long time but wasn't always in the Social Media Marketing niche. In this episode we discuss how and why she changed niches. Growing on social media, as well as building a brand and business using Social Media. Katie Is killing It and a must follow on Instagram and YouTube (links below) Katie's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/katherinethe19thKatie's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katiesteckly/My YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/benleavittMy Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/benleavitt_/

Katie Bishop is the very special guest on this episode of Sales Chalk Talk. Katie Is the co-author of a book, due to be released in March of 2020, titled” The Best Seller”. Katie cut her sales teeth in the insurance industry and, along with her father, has served as a mentor to hundreds of salespeople across the world. On this podcast you’ll discover: • The meaning and importance of “Favorable Access in sales, business, mentoring and life • The most important sales skill you need to develop • The importance of mentoring and why salespeople tend to shy away from it • And MUC, MUCH more Come listen as my incredible co-host, Jim Hamlin, and I learn some great stuff from Katie, and as always, share some laughs along the way. Katie’s email is http://katiebishop.us/connect You can get a sneak preview of “The Best Seller” when you text SELL to 31996.

Katie Is one of the best actresses and costumers we know. She also taught the very first seminar we ever attended. She's taught us a lot over the years and we're stoked to have her on the show! Today we talk about keeping your cast engaged!

TRANSCRIPT:0:00 – 0:44Bridget: I'm Bridget Vogt and I have worked at Starfire for twenty years in a variety of ways.Katie: That's two decades. So that's a long time. What has been all the variety of ways?Bridget: When I first started it was just office help and doing the outings that we had during the evening and weekends. You know a few years after that we started a day program so I started that, doing the day program. A few years after that we started StarfireU, so I worked in both and then just StarfireU and now I am doing one-on-one work with people and their families.0:45 – 2:46Katie: What do you think has changed in the way that you show up to work from then and now, and what has stayed the same?Bridget: Well I'd say there's just a different way of showing up when you're starting your day with a room of 12 people or 15 or 20 people with disabilities versus showing up and talking to one person at a time. There's a much different energy, there's a different effort, there's a different priority that is just the reality of probably day program life. You know, you're hoping that everybody gets along and that they can say they had a pretty good day and I think the days of working with a group of people at a time it is more about being an entertainer and showing them a good time and keeping them happy and building them up. Now working just with one person at a time it is still about building them up and making sure they're confident but it's not quite the same, the word entertainer keeps coming to mind. The people who were really successful in the day program that keep coming to mind were the staff with big personalities who drew people in with just who they were naturally and they could almost perform, if that makes sense. They were a good storyteller or funny, all those things, and that's not necessarily as useful or needed with just one person. So you're still building into the person to help them understand who they are and that they're a good person, that they have gifts to give, what are they, and figuring all that stuff out. And that's kind of the biggest difference is working with one person and thinking.. You know.. Where do you belong... what do you do? Where are you going to be happy doing?Katie: Yeah, so it's a little bit more of an in-depth conversation when you're sitting with somebody, you don't need to be the entertainer. You need to be the deep listener and over-shadowing a person by being too enthusiastic or too much of the entertainer could give the opposite effect than when you're working with just one person at the time.Bridget: Yeah, I think that's possible. Like I definitely think that's happened, you know we're working to help people meet people and if you kind of take over and don't let that person who you're working with shine more than you than you're not doing a very good job.2:57 – 4:30Katie: Yeah, so you stayed through this change, and you've had to turn on different parts of you or skills/strengths that you have during the change, and so what's been really consistent about the work? Obviously, it's kept you here, doing it.Bridget: Well I think we have, one way or another, throughout these times — we did what we thought was best and that's still the case. I care a great deal for all the people we've met with disabilities out there. And to recognize that appealing to a group of people doesn't change what happens in their lives in ten years. Letting that sink in and figuring out how to do something that hopefully will mean something in ten years with or without my presence is the bigger key too. So I think that's what keeps me here, is the belief that what I'm doing is going to matter in ten years to these people that I know. Katie: So obviously like a deep well of love or care for people with disabilities is consistent in you, you showed up in both worlds with that, with that intention.Bridget: Yeah, yeah I'd say so. There wasn't a whole lot of outside forces drawing or keeping me. There are plenty of potentially simpler things to do out there in the world definitely probably more lucrative things to do out there in the world but that's not where my heart was or what I felt called to do. Annd Starfire seemed like a good place at the time when I started here.4:31 – 6:30Katie: Yeah, Starfire had something different even back then twenty years ago than other places, it was founded by family members who were looking for a better way and so that thread of intentionality and family driven-ness has kind of carried through.One of the things you told me before this podcast around building community was that If we want other people to learn how to build community or do it on their own we have to really learn how to do it ourselves. Take me back to when things did try to shift to Starfire being more of a community building place for people with disabilities to connect to the community — and what was your involvement in the community when that change started to happen?Bridget: You know, before anyone saw any changes at Starfire before it started to change Tim and I, mainly Tim, started doing a lot more learning around topics like asset-based community development (ABCD). And being introduced to some concepts that we had not heard of or knew anything about and kind of working through those and wrestling with some of the things we were learning with. You know if there was a belief that the community is the answer, it sounds great that the community can be the answer but we don't always see it. But part of why I think for us what we had to acknowledge was well our community is not our answer, we've lived in Bellevue for three years and we don't know anyone, we only know two of our neighbors and that's probably about it. And we go to work and then we come back and then we had some old friends from like college and high school and those are who we see and not our neighbors.That was sort of the beginning of noticing, we don't really know our neighbors so this idea of community being the answer is just ridiculous. But is it ridiculous or is it that we just haven't tried? And if this is possible, if community is the answer, then we probably need to figure out what community it is, and what does it look like and what are we doing to be active in our community. 6:31 – 7:06Katie: Describe Bellevue, describe what that neighborhood is like.Bridget: It is one square mile, in Kentucky, on the river.Katie: Is that it?Bridget: Yeah, one square mile.Katie: Oh wow.Bridget: You didn't know we were that little? So it's pretty small, what else would you say about Bellevue. It's overall a working class neighborhood.Katie: How many people in the one square mile?Bridget: I don't know.Katie: It's pretty concentrated, like there are a lot of houses.Bridget: Yeah, I mean it's urban. You know houses are very close together there's not a lot of yards.Katie: There's a big.. There's a great little main strip there with coffee shops and...Bridget: Yeah like your typical main street.Katie: Kind of on the river.Bridget: Close to it, yeah.7:07 – 9:16Katie: Ok, so when you're thinking back to that time and you're just learning these new concepts around community building and you're looking in you're neighborhood and you're like ok there's.. We don't have any connections here.. Did you have any revelations at that time or what started to shift and how did you start building community?Bridget: Tim was a little more, I know he had been to Peter Block and John McKnight and they had been talking about neighborhood interviews. Truly going and finding people and interviewing them and Tim did that. He was like, “Alright the challenge is I've got to meet five different people, I'm going to interview them on their gifts and talents,” and then he was like, “you should too.” And I said maybe in a more informal way.Katie: What was your hesitation around that?Bridget: Yeah, well it's weird right, like this is an awkward beginning of like ‘hey stranger' or someone that I've just seen in passing, ‘Could we sit down and I'll interview you?' I think anyone would say once they've done it it's not weird at all it's just the hurdle of asking. Because I think I did talk to a few people but I didn't… I would just kind of talk to them instead of like scheduling it. I would just kind of be in a conversation and kind of work my way through what the interview probably would be.Katie: So like what are your talents, interests, passions, skills?Bridget: Yeah what do you like to do?Katie: So you kind of start with the low hanging fruit, I already know them..Bridget: I started with the easy-peasy, ‘Hey friend that I already know' and then we started talking about doing a starting a community garden in Bellevue, I wanted to do it, one of the people we like already knew was interested in doing it and then that kind of grew out of there. Like ok throw it out to the masses, who would want to start a community garden?Katie: So once you started talking to neighbors you start to kind of plot ideas? I feel like that's kind of a natural thing that happens just with people, is once you get to talking you start talking about what would be great in our neighborhood? And that conversations just kind of naturally evolves right like, probably pretty informally like the way that your conversations evolved.Bridget: Yeah I think so, like what would you want to do? Oh do we have this here?9:17 – 12:36Katie: So did you find that there are people who are really driven/motivated to get something created off the ground like ‘ok we'll do all the plans for the garden' and then there are the people who step in once it's there and say ‘yeah we're going to establish this and make it set'?Bridget: I don't know, there were some people who were interested in the beginning but they had some pretty… They were randomly enough when I went to community garden training there were two other people that I never met from Bellevue.Katie: Is that how you got started was just to go and learn how to do it?Bridget: That was one of my commitments, is I said I'm going to well I thought that I would get one I would interested helpful practice probably. And all the like powers that be were very supportive like the neighborhood association the people that were there at the time, had talked about it but they've never done it and I'm like I'm really going to do it, I've already signed up for the class. And they were like sure, go for it, you know we'll support it and you can do it under the neighborhood association umbrella.Katie: Had you gardened before?Bridget: Just in the backyard a little bit, I mean I still would say I'm not an expert gardener. Whatever, you plant seeds that grow, maybe they don't, and that's ok you just. You just keep going and that's what's great about it because the weather is unpredictable, the season is unpredictable. There's no guarantee that just because you did it well last year you could do the exact... You could think you're doing the exact same thing and it's not.Katie: I like that approach, I really like that because I think there's a lot of wisdom in that for people who want to do something that they don't know how to do and maybe think they'll never know how to do or be experts at, and for something like gardening that can be really intimidating. And what you're saying is that's ok even if it fails. The whole point isn't necessarily...Bridget: Well, and that would be my perspective on it and what I bring to the community garden. I think I was talking about how there were two people at that training who wanted to grow their own food. They had plans to make a community garden, they wanted to sustain their living, they wanted to plant enough food to last their... They wanted to eat off their land. But it wasn't going to be their land it was going to be some neighbor's property that as an empty lot. And we kind of parted ways because they were very serious about, like we will be producing enough food for ourselves and the difference between the lot they already thought they could use and some of the lots like empty some vacant property that we were looking at they were like “oh there's not enough room, not enough room” and I was like “not enough room for what?” But like my idea was not going out to produce enough food to support all of Bellevue.It was always going to be a community garden, a place to meet, a place to garden, a place to enjoy each other. And hopefully get some vegetables out of it. So meeting those people at first was exciting and then it was like this is a struggle, they were not interested in the community aspect of it.Katie: The community aspect of it is what.. And that's what you went to people with.. It wasn't do you want to grow vegetables it was do you want to be part of a community that is growing vegetables?Bridget: Right. Yeah like bring your kids, it won't matter, we won't care. No hard core rules no you know some of the strict regulations.12:37 – 15:18Katie: That's the key. So then how did the potluck evolve?Bridget: There was ourselves and another family, the Salzmans, who I guess we just decided we should try it. There wasn't a whole lot of planning involved other than like we all do it once a month, we'll have it at the city building and that's it. And we don't know what will happen, I think it was just mainly them and just saying like well it might just be the four of us - and kids who show up and we'll just see what happens from there.Katie: And so during this time, you guys are starting to shake a little bit of your patterns about how you live in your neighborhood, can you talk about some of those smaller micro-things that you've done to build community and ways that you've also met neighbors. Because you know it helps to have that form of communication where it's not just a flier going out. What were the ways you got to kind of know more neighbors so you could make those invites?Bridget: I think a lot of it was, one the coffee shop became much more of a hub. So there were people coming and going and just running into people and saying hello. There were programs that our kids did, like there was a basketball program with young kids and we walked around, I think we went around to a few different people and talked to them about, ‘hey would you come? You'd be welcome.” There was a neighborhood group started on Facebook too.Katie: And I love that you guys do stuff in your front yard too.Bridget: Yeah we usually have our fire pit out there, so we'll sit out there. Halloween we sit out there with a fire and hot dogs or just anytime and there's quite a few kids in our neighborhood especially at this point, that just kind of wander around, hang out looking for stuff to do. So if we're doing that they can come and hang out and sometimes their parents come with them. Sometimes it's a formal ‘hey we're having a fire pit who wants to come?'Katie: And the same spirit happens at the garden. Right where people just kind of walk by and they see it so that's an invitation?Bridget: Yeah and I have gone to the school and done, like with the after school program, pretty much since the beginning brought a group weekly or however often works in their schedule. So there were a lot of kids then that I got to know who I would meet their parents somewhere in the grocery or wherever and be like ‘oh hi I know you' and then they'd have to explain who is this lady? And then there is stuff like when people walk by, still like ten years later like ‘What is this? We have a community garden?' And the community garden was communal, that was the other thing that we did, it's not as if you pay a membership due and get so much property or square foot bed, it's just everybody gardening together, so that if somebody is to come once, they don't have to wait until next year to get their bed or whatever. They come and they can do whatever we're doing, like everybody works on it together, same thing with kids and everything.15:19 – 16:44Katie: So I mean taking it back to when you guys were first looking at Bellevue and saying this is not a place where we can build community to today it just seems like...Bridget: I don't think we thought that we couldn't build it but we just hadn't.Katie: Yeah or I guess..Bridget: We just didn't know what community was, like to sit back and be like ‘oh yeah when we grew up we could talk to all these neighbors and we did run.. Like I did run around with my neighbor friends, there were five or six kids I was allowed to go around the block... I just think we as adults had not even attempted. Like we were just the people coming in and out our front door, parking, getting out and going out to work, coming home and staying home or going out somewhere else. And we just had that shift of well what is going on here in Bellevue?We should be a part of this. If this is where we are going to live, let's live here. It shifted from work and people we know from work or old college friends that we're going to go visit and see to shifting to like well who are our neighbors? You know maybe we thought that the neighborhood itself wasn't very welcoming like when I look back nobody welcomed us what the heck. But we've been here long enough we are the people who have lived here, we should be the “welcomers” so I think we just kind of recognized our own role. If we want our community to look a certain way we've got to do it. We can't wait and think well nobody else did that, so I guess it doesn't exist.Katie: That's just not part of our neighborhood.Bridget: It's just not a thing.16:45 – 18:41Katie: And that's also something that you almost don't want to impose on people its like ‘well nobody else is doing that here so maybe that means people don't want it and if we tried we'd be imposing' or we'd be asking people too much. But I'm wondering too is there something to the rhythm of the garden and the potluck that has allowed for this to take shape?Bridget: I don't know I wanted to make a community garden. I think that as far as where is your energy best, where gives you energy, what makes you happy is a big factor. So if it's going to make you miserable to garden then you're probably not going to be the person that starts the community garden. Like you might help with some aspect of it but going to the garden overall is a fun time for me, I enjoy it, it makes me happy. I love when new people come I love when old people show up versus trying to do something just because I think it's a good thing to do, if that makes sense. There's definitely been times and roles that I have taken on because ‘oh wouldn't you, would you be willing to do this for us, you'd be really great at that' ..Ok, I can do that, you know I'll commit to that role… and then realizing this is killing me.. Like this just makes me miserable, why would I say I'd do this and now I say I've done it so I'll do it but I've got to step out quickly. And I think that's more like there are plenty of ways to build community and plenty of things that you can do, I think it's just making sure you're enjoying them. And then it's also possible to make sure you're enjoying them with the right people. You know some of those..Katie: Keeping an eye out for who is going to be in the same.. Who has the same motivations as you.Bridget: Versus being like, oh if you're willing. You know sometimes you agree just to have help, to have anyone on board to do something but if its... You know what you want and you're going the wrong direction you might be really disappointed.18:42 – 21:04Katie: You can be discerning when you build community and it doesn't mean you're not a good neighbor.Bridget: Yeah, I think the other things we've done like the potluck we were very conscious of doing things that are simple, keeping it simple, don't make it complicated, don't promise gourmet meals. We have never said that we are going to... You know the tables will be set up by 5:30 and we will have brought the main dish, anything like that. It's kind of, the more people come the more comfortable they are, like “oh it starts at five o'clock and that means we just get here at five o'clock and we start setting tables up and chairs and arranging the room it doesn't mean at five o'clock dinner is served and you've walked into like a dinner party with tablecloths. It's very laid back, we make sure there are plates which actually on Sunday we ran out but oh well. People figured it out, they reused some, ate off the cake plates.Katie: Yeah, that's the part that stresses me out about potluck, when I hear it and I think of hosting it I think I have to bring the main dish, I have to be the one to set up everything and you figured out a way to make that low key.Bridget: You just kind of set it up with the expectation of 1) there's not really a host, like Ryan will put it on the Facebook group and he'll set the events, it's every fourth Sunday and that's kind of done for the year actually. Between a few of us we throw in paper plates and forks every once in a while, so yeah and just kind of knowing we could have put the bar really high from the beginning but I think at that point we were aware enough to know that that would wear us down. We wanted to make sure it would be nothing any of us dreaded going to and that's not going to keep it going.Katie: Yeah, and how could you ever go on vacation or have a missed week?Bridget: Yeah and if we're not there what do you do? You know luckily there's not a key, the way Bellevue works is we just call the police and they have a key to the building and they let us in. Now anybody, the early birds know that. So if we're not the first one there the other first person knows ‘oh I just call this number and they'll come and let us in and we can get the tables out and start moving things around.' I mean that all took time you know, but I think just to be cautious or thoughtful about if it's something that you want to do for a long time, what is it that you enjoy doing and it won't drain you over the long-haul?21:05 – 23:13Katie: And how often do you go to the garden? How often are you..Bridget: In the season I'll go twice a week.Katie: Ok, and are you going at a set time when everyone else is coming too?Bridget: Yes, Wednesdays 6:30, Sunday at 9:30.Katie: So you have set hours?Bridget: Those are the established.. They kind of shift from year to year but usually it's like Wednesday night and Sunday morning.Katie: Ok. How many people would you say are showing up to these different things, does that even matter? How important is that to you?Bridget: It's great when there is a crowd. There's probably like 30-40 people plus kids, and then some kids at the potluck.Katie: Starting out it was just you and the Salzmans right?Bridget: Well a couple more people came and even then obviously in the time that we've been doing them, who shows up and who is still showing up has changed. The same thing with the garden, some people who were really helpful and got us you know came and did some hard work at the beginning, you know one couple's moved out of Bellevue another one is still semi-involved, actually a couple of people have moved out.. You know so some people who were involved are gone. And now it's a different wave of people almost. And then there's people that for some of those people that were a part of the community garden they never came to a potluck, that wasn't their scene. We even though it is kind of close.. Bellevue is pretty small, so you could be conscious of — ‘oh they've never shown up once' but it's not their thing. So I think to just keep that.. Because when you first.. When things first get started and they're sort of in that fragile state of beginning, it is sort of fragile right and you think ‘oh how come they aren't coming to the garden, I thought they'd help and they've never shown up.' And you can take it personally but then again another part of living in a neighborhood for your life is expecting you to live by these same people. So if you want to hold a grudge about the fact they said they'd show up and they didn't you probably aren't going to be great neighbors, you know like this is a lifetime of living so let's not hold a grudge about the time they said they'd show up or why didn't they and all that kind of stuff. Because that's not necessarily going to help build community either.23:14 – 24:18Katie: One of the things that I'm wondering now is if it is a new neighbor and they want to get involved in the garden, do they contact you? If they do want to come to the potluck is there a main person there to kind of coordinate things or..Bridget: I think the Facebook group is a pretty big communication device for everyone, and that shows the times and then if somebody asks a question then the person tags my name or somebody else in there and say “hey they want to know about this” or you know I think Facebook is a big driver as far as communication that I've had and then it might be a personal message or text from somebody whose met, you know maybe they live next door to somebody who had that question and they say ‘oh here's her phone number or I'll text her or email her.'Katie: So you are the main contact for a lot of these questions for the garden?Bridget: I mean for the garden I am, I don't know that anybody really reaches out for the potluck as much as they would just show up and be like ‘what is this, who should I talk to?' And then people would probably point out a few different people to talk to there.24:19 - 26:40Katie: So when people talk to you I guess they see you as a coordinator of the garden especially, and they come to you and they have a brand new idea for the garden or they want to implement something, being in that role as the main contact how do you deal with that how do you respond?Bridget: Usually it's that sounds great, you can do it. Just recently we had a big, one of our neighbors was part of Crossroads and she was leading a go global effort in Bellevue and she wanted to do it at the community garden and she was like, “I've got some ideas” and I was like “I'd love to hear them” and they wanted to put in a pergola and a grill. The grill didn't happen but the pergola is up and it was like that would be amazing, that would be great, and they did it. There have been many suggestions like at the potluck we should use silverware, all this plastic and I was like, “I hear ya I bring my own.” My answer to that is me and my family, we have the dishes we come here with and we take them home.Katie: So you bring your own set of dishes and silverware?Bridget: I do.Katie: Oh that's smart.Bridget: But I provide the paper ones as well, but one of the people who comes says we should really.. Or shouldn't we all.. We should just have silverware here and I'm like, “if you want to bring it and take it home and wash it I would love it.” But I am also making it clear that I'm not volunteering to do that.Katie: To clean everybody's dishes.Bridget: I am taking home these five plates and these five forks because I would really probably resent everyone as I washed their dirty dishes.Katie: Oh my gosh yeah.Bridget: But I would love it if somebody really was motivated and was like I'm going to do this, this is my thing I'm going to do every month, I would totally support that.Katie: Yeah it goes back to do what you want other people to do, sort of be the change by living it. I think people forget what an individual looks like versus what an organization looks like. It's like an organization who runs a potluck would probably take that and implement a new system of dishwashing because they could but an individual or a family..Bridget: Or organize like it's your month. Like could you imagine the rotating..Katie: No.Bridget: Who knows.. Who knows what any organization would do.Katie: But that's the slipery slope of it getting really entangled and emmeshed in this sort of process, agenda, structure that ends up killing the spirit of it.26:41 – 34:21Katie: Now when you look at your neighborhood, Bellevue, what does community look like? What would be like a key image?Bridget: There's a few that come to mind, like one is the ability for my... like Patrick who is old enough and friends live with he just walks around and finds friends. Like that's a pretty great image for me, like that's kind of his classic line at this point is “I'm going to go out and find some friends, I'll be back.” That's a pretty big deal for your kids to be able to go out and find some friends to play with. I don't know there's a lot of images, you know we just had the memorial day parade and we weren't in the parade but knew.. Waving at all the groups that were walking by, how many people we knew or as people go to sit down or as we go to sit down talking to so many of the people that are around that's pretty great.. That's a big day for Bellevue I feel like Memorial day parade but pretty great.Katie: Do you ever feel the need to go back in time to this hidden life in pulling in from work and going in the house and not talking to any of your neighbors, is there ever a time when you not regret but wish you could be more under cover in your neighborhood?Bridget: I don't think so, no, like I said I think there is the things you learn about being in community and being around your neighbors of knowing how far to take of personal feelings right, “oh you hurt my feelings.” And kind of working.. Being aware of who you are and why that hurt your feelings, like don't hold onto that forever because I could find a way to probably be upset with a lot of people if I wanted to, right? Like we could find hurts everywhere or slight grievances whether they're real or not, whole other story, but if I wanted to take that as a personal afront to what they said or not showing up..Katie: Or even just differences in political opinions.Bridget: That would be a big one right now. Like stuff like that, Facebook profile what somebody said on Facebook or on the group page you know, like how much do you engage in those conversations that people get started. So no I don't, at the same time there's been moments of struggle where you have to sit down and say “ok this is what community is about, it is about you can be this person and we can still talk about our kids being friends even though we have the.. We are not alike in a lot of ways.Katie: That part of it is what I think is the most magical. Is when you can actually get to a place where you can be common with people who you are so different from and you can feel connected and familiar with them even though you might never have chosen them but they're your neighbor. It's kind of like family but in a different way.Bridget: It is, and it's not to.. You know to paint this picture there are plenty of people who don't want to know me. It's not as if the whole neighborhood is all sharing.. You know there are those people who think a community garden is a waste of space, that's fine. There were people when we first started who thought we were taking away a place for kids to play, we can win them over or just ignore them. You know they'll either be won over all with time, I mean its not our intent, it's not as if we're hiding some intention other than.. I don't know if some people are suspicious like “why are you doing this” “what's your end goal?” And I think they're have been some people who have asked me that and I was like “um what do you mean? End goal? We're going to get to know each other isn't that enough?” But that's not enough some people just don't.. I don't know people have suspicious nature sometimes, sometimes they don't understand that you can just be doing it. I don't know how many times Tim has been asked if he is going to run for mayor. He's not.. Or city council.. Like are you running for something. Some people thought I worked at the school, “well you're a teacher there right?” “no, no I just live in Bellevue.” But like people's concepts of why people do things, you know it's your job to do them versus no this is just what I do for fun. This is my hobby.Katie: Yeah and it.. I think the intrastent motivation behind why you're doing something or if you were trying to get something out of it even if it wasn't this is my job or I'm trying to run for city council, if it was something less tangible than that like “I want to do this so I am.. So that people like me so I'm a good neighbor.. I'm going to do this so everyone thanks me and loves me for this garden at the end of it I'm going to be well renowned” so even that gets you in trouble because there are people that say, “you took away my this this or this” by doing it, you can't make everybody happy, you can't win everybody over so your motivation has to be pretty.. I would even think it gets whittled down to being just a pure motivation of “the only reason I would do this is because I love it and I want to be with the community. The community doesn't have to all of it but if some people do and we can enjoy it together than that's enough. I can see though where that would be really hurtful to be like “but wait a minute, wait I'm not trying to hurt anyone why is this being misconstrued?”Bridget: Why, why would you mock my garden? What do you think this is? But yeah. So you know that's one of the learning, take your toys and go home or stick it out and see what happens, see who comes around, all things with time. Sometimes its hard at this point to be like “wow it's been ten years” ten years of growing and what did it look like then, what were the struggles when we started versus what are they now? You know, I think overall the struggles now.. There's not really.. We kind of went over some of the hurdles and now it's just like I don't stress about it a lot. You know if people's expectations when they come to the potluck are let down because there wasn't a greeter at the door or there wasn't assigned seats, or whatever they had in their mind when they come in the door they may come and be disappointed because it wasn't organized enough and they really think it should be organized. And they probably don't come back and that's too bad I wish they would but at the same time this is maybe not where their energy is fulfilling, like they would be really stressed out by our lack of..Katie: So loose structure just kind of lends itself to anybody being able to fit in at the same time..Bridget: But there are people who come to the potluck who do not always bring a dish for whatever reason, they don't cook maybe they can't afford the meal, nobodies checking at the door. We can all show up differently and bring a different gift and that ties pretty directly to our work right and all that we have done. Not everybody.. The stricter the ways are the more exacting and perfect you have to be. At the community garden it would be really hard for groups of kids to show up at our community garden if you can't touch this and you can't touch that and if you step there.. I knew I wasn't going to organize.. I wasn't going to manage ten plots and ten people's opinions on how each plot should look. I was like heck no. That's one of the things garden managers.. Community garden managers do.34:22 – 36:18Katie: Ok so it has a lot of your spirit in it and whatever community effort is built has the person who starts it spirits in it. So let's take it back to Starfire's work real quick. Where is this type of community building that you do in your own life where does that show up in your work at Starfire and how is it influencing your work with disabilities one on one, do you think you'd be able to do some type of job if you weren't doing this at home?Bridget: Yeah, I think I could. I can definitely.. I know I believe in the community building work. I know it, I've seen it I've lived it in my own live and seen how if we had not changed or shifted what we were doing around our own neighborhood I don't know what our kids would be doing. Because of how we've shifted and lived I know that there is a lot of good things a lot of potential out here for communities to build up around. So I think that helps motivate the work but I think I could do it even if I hadn't. I wouldn't quite understand all the ins and outs I wouldn't have had the experiences to understand or think through some of the things but some have probably played off each other too.Katie: So your work at Starfire has kind of informed your role in your neighborhood and vice versa?Bridget: I would say it has.Katie: Yeah, how could it not.Bridget: I don't know how it wouldn't have at this point but I'm sure they've definitely influenced each other.Katie: That's the work life blend I think that was talked about at the beginning of this change at Starfire. It's not that we have to take our work home and do our work at home it just means that our work is actually is a way of life and we do it everywhere. We do it at our work but we don't clock out and go home and be sucky neighbors because it kind of just influences the way you live everywhere.36:19 – 38:14Katie: Why do you think it's important for you to do this work in people with disabilities lives?Bridget: Well I think the.. What I've seen in our own world and I think with some of the people that have started projects as families too is that it kind of spurs on the next thing. So by starting something it kind of opens another door, it's a ripple effect of all of it. So I think that is somebody starts something in their neighborhood and then you know you don't necessarily have to do it all, there will be other people who are motivated to something else then maybe you just show up to support them or tell them they did a great job later on. It's not you for everything, but I definitely think for more people to know each other is good for everyone, for sure.Katie: So what is your hope for the next ten years, in the next ten years, let's say ten years from now what is your hope for Bellevue?Bridget: I think that's pretty hard because I think Bellevue is pretty great right now it doesn't need to change anymore, but I'm sure there will be change in ten years and hopefully it will all be good change. My hope is that it is just a welcoming happy community for everyone and continues to be that and in ten years my sons will then be young adults will want to be there too. That this is a place where they want to be and feel as strongly connected to as they do now.Katie: And maybe carry through with some of the work that you guys have set?Bridget: Maybe I can't imagine.. In their own way they'll be doing something else. I have no doubt they'll be doing something.Katie: Maybe they'll run for mayor. One of them will run for mayor.Bridget: No, well maybe who knows. We'll see.Katie: Alright well thank you, I appreciate it.Bridget: Thank you Katie.

Katie: So, why is the concept of staying important to Starfire's work?Tim: There is a great quote by Wendell Berry, and he talks about the marriage vows and they are not for better and for richer and for health, they are for better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness and health. He says that in staying we learn something closer to the truth which is that not everything in life is happy, and not everything in life is great. I think people with disabilities and their families that I know, relate that there is a great joy in life, especially when they get included and supported and loved in a way that we at Starfire hope that they could be. That continues to be a struggle for them and their families. So, if we can think about staying in solidarity, and in fraternity, and in relationship with people, we can be with them in that struggle, and it can lead to some good things, but it could be tough, many tough days.I also think that when we think about “staying” we think about that same quote reminding us that there's going to ups and downs and it might be tempting to leave. Leaving is an assumption that somewhere else is going to be better, but staying seems to be an invitation and a commitment to making this place better or this life better or this relationship better. So staying implies, in the depth of that concept, that I'm not just going to get out of here; I'm not going to leave you or this place. I am going to be here. There are going to ups and downs and good days and bad days, but I am still going to be here. So I think staying through those good days and bad days, and through the struggles and through the joys, and paying attention to the closer you get to the truth of what life is all about, what inclusion is all about.Inclusion is not all happy and fun; it means I accept you as you are.I believe you can do better, but I accept you as you are. And you belong already; there is no need for you to have to earn it or prove that you are valuable, more valuable than you already are, so the idea of stay relates to peace. It relates to rest; it relates to some sort of satisfaction, and it relates to time in a really great way that I chose to commit myself to people, or a place, or to an idea, in a way that just gives the long story a chance to unfold. People with disabilities have a really small degree of imagination of story and imagination around their lives. There is a very short story about disability. It fits in this box and goes here and these people go here and that is what defines their life. So it is not a very big story and if we can stay with people and help nurture and participate in their journey and struggle for a better life, then we can see that there is a better story. You have to stay to see that better story.Katie: Is it important to talk about staying because that isn't a common reality for people with disabilities for in their lives that people often do not “stay”?Tim: Yeah, I mean, when we look at the people that we support and the people that we love and know with disabilities, we see a lot of leaving in their lives. You've got professionals that are in and out depending on their next job, or if they got fired or promoted or left. So, there's this constant turnover. And if we're being really honest, we hear that there's a lot of absence of community and rejection sometimes for people with disabilities and their families. And, an absence and rejection is a leaving of sorts. Right? Like, you're left alone. We're outta here. We're not gonna be with you anymore. So, when you've got a disability, you've got this turnover almost in your life. Your social stories are very short. People are in it for a few minutes or a few hours or a few weeks or months as professionals, they're not really in it for a long period of time. So, the counter, the antidote would be staying, the people that are there for a long time.There's also just an interesting, I would call it a creative limitation, that people with disabilities and their families are inviting us into.A lot of people I know who have disabilities can't drive. And so, their mobility is limited. They might not be able up and move to a new city for college because college isn't even an option. Or, they would lose their funding if they moved out of state. Or, the public transportation system doesn't actually travel between cities, you know. So, the mobility of people with disabilities is really physically limited, and the options of moving about are limited. So, then if we're asking the question, “How might someone with a disability have a good life?” one of the factors is we that we think the reality is they're going to be limited in how they move about.So, we would want to develop local networks and really have people who have stayed around them be part of the story, that would have known them for a long time. The last aspect of stay that I can think of that really matters is that staying relates to taking care of a place and the people in that place. So, there's another great essay that Wendell Berry wrote about his family's farm and the generations of his family that have taken care of that place. And there's a, by taking care of that place, they're taking care of the people around them and of that place too. So, people who take care of a neighborhood or take care of a block, or take care of a city; because they've lived there their whole lives, those are the kind of people who create a culture where somebody's looking after the place and the people in it.And, if we could have more people stay and own the caretaking of places, and root themselves deeply, they would grow big networks, and they would, over time, probably build a culture that was very conducive to the lives of people with disabilities and that culture.Katie: So, last question. Who do you think is called to stay? And, how do they do that?Tim: I think we're all called to stay. However, I don't think that any of us are required to stay. There are good reasons for moving on from relationships and places. You can't afford it, or the person you're committed to turns out not to be the person that you thought they were, and that's dangerous. But, I think that the problem is that if we don't leave the potential for staying open, then we don't ever invest deeply. We don't get to know the people around us because we're already out the door. We're buying this next house in order to flip it in five years, and move to a new place. So, why would we invest in each other? Why would we care about each other's well-being? Why would we look out for our neighbors? Why would we bring flowers to the woman whose husband passed away across the street? Why would we, you know, get to know the kids on our block if we're gonna be gone in a few years' time? So, the temporary-ness that we start with is key. Or the permanency.If we start with an idea that this might be a place that I stay, and we find out that it's not, that's great because the assumption was there to begin with, and we invested as if we were going to stay. I once met a woman who really challenged me on that. And she said, “I was a military kid. I had to move.” She said, “And, I'm still a military wife now.” And she said, “I still have to move.” And she said, “But every place I go, I invest like I'm gonna be there for the rest of my life.” That was awesome and beautiful.She didn't forego relationships, she didn't create an absence in the neighborhood or in the families around her by assuming that she would be gone. She actively, intentionally said I'm going to invest, because I know I'm gonna be gone but I still need to take care of this place by investing in it as though I'm gonna live here myself.So, if I'm a person with a disability and I don't get to move, but everybody around me is flipping their houses every five years, and everybody is of the mindset that they're outta here in a few years, then quickly my condition deteriorates, and I could be stuck. And, instead of staying, I'm stuck. Everybody around me – no one knows me. No one's built a great garden that I can be a part of. Nobody knows when my birthday is. And, I'm not a part of their world either.

The best episode of the season so far. That's what I said on Twitter after it aired, and I stand by that assessment. A leader arrested, a major reveal and a major character death. Normally, a house-fire would qualify as a show's major action-piece, but not so for Colony. That's just a set up for something better to actually happen. Look at our Facebook page for additional fact-finding related to the show. Let's review: Will - Continues to be too good at his job, but suffers from a woman-shaped blind spot. Katie - Is a bad liar and ok with arson in small, manageable quantities. Bram - is grounded. Beau - Did a -little- police work this week. Phyliss - Don't get too attached... Direct iTunes link.

This week, we have a brief discussion about how third party ad networks affect performance on news sites before talking with Sophie Shepherd. Sophie is a Senior Designer at Ushahidi, a non-profit software company that develops free and open-source products for information collection, visualization, and interactive mapping. We discussed the challenges of designing for international users with minimal data speed, how Ushahidi brings data and information to regions with nearly no connection, designing with task completion in mind, and more. ##Show Links: Sophie Shepherd Follow Sophie on Twitter Ushahidi Lara Hogan - A List Apart - Showing Performance Global Mobile Book Eric Meyer Crisis Design Rust Belt Refresh ##Transcript Katie: Welcome. You're listening to Episode 8 of The Path to Performance, the podcast dedicated to everyone to make the web faster. I am your host, Katie Kovalcin. Tim: And I'm your other host, Tim Kadlec and yeah, you nailed it; this is Episode 8. Well done! Katie: I was like, oh yeah, I totally know which episode it is. Wait: no, I don't. This is Episode 8. Tim: I mean, it's understandable; the numbers are getting higher, it's getting harder and harder. Katie: Totally out of control it's on more than one hand now! Tim: Yeah, once you've thrown that second hand, things get really complicated. It gets worse when you have to start taking off the socks and using your toes as well! That's where I always get hung up! Katie: You can wear flip-flops and then you don't have to worry about it. Tim: True, true. Katie: How are you, Tim? Tim: I'm doing OK; I'm actually wearing flip-flops right now! Yeah, I am! Katie: It's warm in Wisconsin? Tim: It is warm, for once. Yeah, I'm doing good; enjoying my day. And you? Katie: I'm good as well. The sun is shining here, which is a very rare thing in Ohio this summer and I feel like I have been whining about it for so long but today, I'm not whining. Tim: That's good! That's good! I'm guessing, we could maybe one of these times maybe we'll have an episode where we just kind of whine all the way through, but otherwise I think people probably enjoy the non-whining better. Katie: We can just have a bummer episode! Tim: Yeah, just a downer of an episode where we just air all our grievances about everything… Katie: We just talk in emo voice, just like…mwww…yeah, the web does actually kinda suuuuck… Tim: Yeah, exactly! I think this goes over well, I think this is maybe like a special Christmas edition. Katie: That is a really good idea. Tim: Right in time for the holidays. Katie: Christmas Bummer Episode! Tim: This is brilliant. That has to happen; I'm writing this down. Anyway, but glad to hear you're doing good now on this totally not Christmas at all episode. That's good. Katie: Yeah, on this summer-sunshine flip-flop fun-time episode! Tim: Yay! Katie: So, on the note of cool things, there's this episode from the Washington Post where in kind of a similar fashion, I know we talked a couple of months ago about Vox sort of declaring performance bankruptcy, Washington Post kinda did the same thing and talked about in an article the other day and that was pretty cool. They mentioned it sort of being in response to the instant articles and talking about just ads on news sites generally kind of sucky for performance, but I really liked this quite that it ended on that we have very little control over ads that load late or slowly but we wanted to make the core use experience as solid as possible because that is what we have control over and that's kind of a cool way to think about performance, just focusing on making good the core part that you do have control over. Tim: Yeah, and I think that's just generally awesome advice for anybody, because the ad work stuff comes up a lot and you have very little control over those third party ad networks and unfortunately a lot of them are super-slow right now but also essential for business but I like that they made the clear distinction between their core experience and understanding that the ads is just something you're going to have to tack on afterwards but mitigate the issues as much as possible. I think that's just really solid advice for any publisher. Katie: Yeah, absolutely. It's a nice article, it's a quick read; I recommend giving that a little skim or browse. Tim: Definitely. And then of course, Lara Hogan, who has made a habit out of writing good things over and over and over again or providing good performance advice in general, she wrote a post for A List Apart about showing performance; basically getting into some of the things she talked about way back in Episode 1 with us and also in her book about the importance of making performance visual: going into the dashboards and things like that, that they have up at Etsy and making sure that people can actually see the difference in performance. Katie: Yeah, she tweeted a little quick video a while ago and it might actually be in that article, I haven't had a chance to read it yet; it's on my to-do list but she posted a video of their video systems and it's really cool, it's really awesome to see that. Did I tell you that Lara, she talks about donuts all the time and donuts being her reward for good performance, achievements, good things like that, and when I saw Lara in New York a couple weeks ago, she took me to The Donut Spot that's in her neighborhood and I was so excited! Tim: Yeah, you told me. She's never taken me to The Donut Spot. I'm a little disappointed. I'm excited for you though: that sounds really cool. That's kind of… Katie: You know what? It was a really good donut because she says she's not a fan of the hipster donuts with a bunch of stupid toppings like cereal and candy bars and crap. Tim: Like the voodoo donuts thing in Portland? Katie: Yeah. These are just some straight-up home-town donuts in Brooklyn; I guess not really home-town but they were good! Tim: That's good. This is just like plain glazed? I want to know how far down the rabbit hole you went. Katie: We got banana…no, not banana: they were like custard-filled ones with the chocolate icing. I'm not a donut expert but those good ones! Tim: Gotcha, OK. That's a safe choice. Katie: Not the white sugary whipped cream-filled, the kind of yellowy-custard cream-filled ones; those are good ones. I don't know the distinction: is one cream and one custard? Is one icing and one cream? I don't know. Tim: I think it's usually like an icing and cream thing. Depending on where you go, it's almost like pure frosting is what it tastes like you're eating… Katie: Yeah, like you bite in and you're just like, oh my… Tim: Yeah, it's like there's frosting on the outside of the donut and frosting shoved down the inside as well and you just feel the cavities forming as you're eating them. It's great. It's a really good experience. But that's good. No, I did not…you did tell me this and that's very awesome, very cool. It's kinda like… Katie: Sorry; I'm obviously still thinking about that. Tim: I don't blame you. Katie: It was an experience. But, back to today's episode! We are talking to Sophie Shepherd and the big reason we wanted to get Sophie on here is not only because she's an awesome designer but because she has experience with working on products that are primarily used in developing countries that typically have the less than ideal device scenarios that we kind of always talk about in theory but she has some really great insight on talking a bout it in practice and actually designing for those devices and scenarios so it's going to be really interesting. Tim: Yeah, it'll be a nice fresh take, a different perspective than we usually get. Very cool. Katie: Cool. Well, let's go hear from Sophie. Katie: And we're back with Sophie Shepherd from Ushahidi. Sophie; can you tell us a little bit about Ushahidi and what exactly that is? Sophie: Sure. So, the what exactly it is, it's a Swahili word that means "Testimony". A lot of people are like, "Usha-what?" so it's not English so don't feel bad if you can't say it. And the company was founded in 2008 in Kenya so in 2008 what was happening in Kenya. there was an election that was fairly corrupt and there was quite a bit of violence broke out and some bloggers who were in Kenya and living in Kenya realized that they needed to do something to help out as well as just writing about what was happening, so they made a product in which people could submit reports of different places where the election was happening, different polling stations and this way they could say, there's been violence here, someone was killed here or this is a safe place where you can go to vote, or there's fraud happening. And what Ushahidi does is it takes all of these different reports and collects them into one place and provides a list and a map for them. So that's how it was founded; it's now a number of products but the name of our main platform is still Ushahidi and the purpose of it is still too collect data, crowd-source data. It's oftentimes gets mapped but isn't necessarily, we're re-doing the platform right now so that it's not only map data; it can really be anything that users submit. Katie: Awesome. So, spoiler alert, I know Sophie really well so I know the details of what she does and what really struck me and why I wanted to get her on the podcast so bad is because you deal a lot with users that are in places that have really poor connectivity and the products that you're designing are really crucial information that they need to get to. Can you talk a little bit about all of that and the challenges that you face when designing for that? Sophie: Sure. So, I think something that's really interesting is that it's not only poor connectivity but the kind of contexts in which people are using our products are unique. Not exclusively, but oftentimes they're used in crisis situations, so people don't have a whole lot of time. A lot of the time, the power could be down or internet could be down, so it's not only we have to think about connectivity but also ways that people are submitting information. This has been the first project I've worked on where it's not just, when we talk about performance, it's not just people needing to load something fast but it's about access and accessibility so, built into our product is people can anonymously text stuff in and that'll become a part of our system so it's really thinking about this whole ecosystem of access and ways of submitting information rather than just a website. Katie: Can you talk a little bit about what that means exactly, more than just a website? How else are you working around those connectivity and accessibility issues? Sophie: Yes, well, Ushahidi as a whole, not only with our platform but we have a lot of other companies that have spun out from the product itself, so there's a company Brick which is really, really awesome. It was founded by someone who was also a founder in Ushahidi and they make wifi devices that are super-rugged; they work off 3G connections so you can take those anywhere. We were in Kenya and they have all these attachments so it can be solar-powered wifi, so we had a group meeting in Kenya and we were all accessing the internet in the middle of nowhere on a beach from this device we had. So, it's thinking more about getting people information. Similarly we do a lot with SMS so if someone only has a phone they can text in a report or receive a response saying, OK, this has been confirmed, through their phone. Tim: This is fascinating stuff. I always think it's very interesting to hear the perspective outside of what we're used to in the little bubble that we get to live in here in the United States tech industry. This is taking everything in terms of the importance of building something that is going to work on different devices and the importance of building something that's going to perform well and this is really scaling up the importance of doing that, the vitality of doing that from just business metrics to, like you're saying, people's lives at stake in some of these cases. I'm curious; you mentioned being in Kenya and using those devices to get access. You can't obviously develop all the time in Kenya, so how are you finding ways to get that experience here, when you're building stuff from the United States so that you're feeling what it's going to be like on those, a 2G or a 3G connection or whatever it happens to be? Sophie: It's definitely a challenge for me because not only am I working every day on a really good connection but I've never really not had that; maybe five years ago my connection was not as good as it was now but I think I've always been as far as connection speeds in the one per cent, but we have a really great user advocacy team at Ushahidi so this is not only thinking about performance and website metrics, but we have a whole team that is dedicated to making sure that our users are satisfied, listening to what their needs are and responding in that way and also helping them, because this is a product that then gets extended and they can download it and set up their own deployments to use the product so we have a team that works really closely with people who are actually using it, which is terrific because we get a lot of feedback through that. Tim: I was going to say, are some of the team members in Kenya? Sophie: Uh-huh. Yeah, we have one person in Kenya, one person in Canada and then we have as part of, we have a specific user testing wing that's in Kenya but what they do is, since they are so in touch with people who use this stuff all over the world, they're good at being able to not only test it in Kenya but test it elsewhere and talk to…we have a large group using this stuff in Nepal right now because of the earthquake so they're in touch with them, checking that everything's working OK, getting any feedback from them. Katie: Do you tend to look at what specific devices the majority of users in these areas are using and start building and testing there or how does that work out? What's the size of an iPhone, that tends to be our default? What devices are you really thinking about in those areas? Sophie: It's interesting because right now, we are in the midst of re-building this product and so a lot of the people out there who are using it right now are using Version 2 which is the older version and at this point I don't even know how many years old it is but it's fairly outdated. It still works really well but it's not responsive; it's hard, we've noticed that quite a lot of people are using it on a desktop but that's only because it doesn't work very well on a phone so it'll be really interesting, we're launching the new one which is fully responsive and a lot more modern in this way to see how people end up using it. But it's tough because we can't say, iPhone users use this because it's used really everywhere in the world so maybe if it's used in the US it is going to be on an iPhone more, whereas elsewhere, it's Android but we try to cast a really wide net so there's an Android app that will be used for collecting information, you can submit by SMS. The new version's going to be totally responsive so what we try to do is not really focus on one but make sure that everyone can use it. Katie: So, you've been working on a responsive re-design and everything we've talked about has been the poor connectivity and all of that. How has performance played into those decisions when building this site or the product again for this new version? Sophie: It's a continuous consideration and process of checks and balances. One thing is that, thinking about images: part of this new system is we're able to have people submit images as part of their reports so that's something that we still have not quite figured out how we should work with how to then deliver those back to people and also thinking about different JavaScript libraries that we're using. It's a constant balance, so I think we're still figuring it out. We've done quite a bit of user-testing but more UX user-testing but the application itself is not totally done, it hasn't been built yet, so I think that's to come in terms of optimizing how it's going to work exactly. But from the design and front-end, we've definitely been keeping things really light and really the only question that we have is how we're going to treat images. Tim: Is it primarily a matter of using them or not using them or is it a degree of compression in terms of getting them to a point where maybe they're a little pixilated and ugly but they're balanced: the trade-off is that they're going to perform well on those types of networks? What are you battling with, with the images? Sophie: Well, I think basically every single image that is ever going to be on the site is going to be submitted by a user, so we don't know exactly the sizes of images that are going to come in and then at what point we are then going to compress them or shrink them and how we're going to do that and then how they're going to then be delivered back out. Yeah. Tim: So it's getting a system in place for all the user-generated content? Sophie: Exactly, yes. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: So, you talk a lot about style guides and patter libraries and Sophie I know that's how you like to design and work. What is that process looking like? Do you do testing as you go on designs and see how performing it is or how fast it's loading under those different circumstances? Can you just talk a little bit about your design thinking? Sophie: Yeah. What we have been doing is we did all the UX fairly separately, thinking about just user flows and how things were going to be laid out and how things should work and then we did some visual design and then we started combining these by building the pattern library, so we took out patterns from visual design and eventually we've just started building templates and designing in the browser because we have enough of these patterns to build upon and it's been really great; this is the first time that I've worked in this way and what I really love about it is that each of our patterns and components basically stand on their own so it's really easy to look at them and understand exactly where certain weights are coming from. By designing modularly, we can pull those out rather than seeing a page as a whole and not really understand what's causing what. Tim: In a prior episode, we were talking to Jeff Lembeck of Filament Group and he mentioned what he called the "Jank Tank" which is this big box of basically ugly, horrible, slow devices. Considering how wide the net you're spreading, do you have anything similar? Is there a Ushahidi Jank Tank that you guys go to? Sophie: There isn't, but I love that idea. Tim: Yeah, I think we were fans of that too. Sophie: Is it like…what does he mean exactly? Tim: The idea was having… Sophie; …lowest common denominator kind of devices? Time: Yeah, basically grabbing cheap devices or old devices and firing those up: things that are going to be maybe a few years old and are probably going to be a huge challenge to make things feel fluid and work well on those and you have those handy to test them out and see what honestly might be a more typical user would experience than the high end stuff. Sophie: Yeah, we don't have that here in the States; I feel bad calling it a Jank Tank because that's negative-sounding, but in the office in Kenya, they have…they all work in a building and there's quite a few tech companies that work in there and they have something like a Mobile Device Lab and I think it was sponsored by a mobile company there but I was there earlier in the year and it kind of blew my mind; I put a picture of it on Twitter that we can refer to in the Speaker Notes. But that was all of these phones that were phones that I hadn't even necessarily seen, that they don't sell in the States, and they're all used for testing so at some point probably now that I'm talking about it, I'm realizing we should do it sooner rather than later, they have a whole testing lab there that we can test this product on. Tim: Nice. A mobile device lab does admittedly sound a little bit more ??? serious. Katie: Everything that you're saying sounds like, just tying in that accessibility and performance are going hand in hand and it sounds like you've just learned a great deal of empathy in your time there. Is that true and has that influenced your design? Sophie: Yeah, definitely. I think something that has really changed in my mind is thinking about when doing the design, what actions are people going to want to take, so I think that goes with performance too: if we can only load this one button that says "submit a report" and skip all of the images then that's the most important thing, so, really thinking about where to guide people and what the most important and crucial actions are before loading and everything else, so as a designer that's been definitely something that, previously I was doing client work and it was like we had this long list of requirements that we had to fit in and now it's kind of re-assessing and re-prioritizing what requirements actually are and having different levels of this is the one thing they need to really use this app and then here's all of this other helpful stuff that could be called crucial but isn't actually life or death crucial. Katie: That's really interesting. Do you think that there's any way that, for those of us still working on client projects, to have those conversations with the client to try to be like, "no, really, but the marketing video isn't truly required"; exercises in priority and stuff: do you have any tips for paring down those requirements? Sophie: I think it's tough if your talking to a marketing person because they'd be like, "no, literally I'm going to die if I don't get this on there." Katie: And you're like, "no, literally, people are on our products like…" Sophie: Yeah. I think any time it's easier to say, "does this go above this in the priority list" people are willing to answer that question rather than either or. So, in general, communicating and deciding things I would recommend ordering rather than choosing people to sacrifice things. Tim: And it seems like that's clarified too in, I would guess one of the reasons why it works so well where you are is because that task, if you're looking at what the most important thing for the user to do is, it's so very clear and so very critical whereas on maybe on a more traditional thing where you're working with marketers or whatever, they may not have as clear a sense of, what is the ultimate purpose of this site? And then it becomes a lot harder to do the prioritization without that. Sophie: Yeah; it's funny because we're in the process right now of re-designing the company site as well as re-designing the product itself and it shouldn't be, because there's no life or death, but it's so much more complicated to prioritize stuff on the company site because there's so many different types of audiences and services that it needs to provide whereas on the app itself, it's pretty clear to say, what's the most important action for someone to take. Tim: Within the new site, do you still have to take into consideration a lot of the same sort of constraints in terms of the different devices and connectivity because that's who your audience is that you're marketing to, or are you marketing to a different group through the site? Sophie: Yeah, the site will be, well that's up for debate; that's I think what we're still trying to figure out. I think by default it's a good idea to not ever say, "oh well only people in the States with nice phones are going to look at this" just because that's a dangerous attitude to have, but it's possibly less of priority for the site itself. Tim: So, going back to prioritizing performance within the actual apps and stuff that you're doing: did you have set targets that you were looking at when you were working V3 of this? Were there hard-set goals; we are not going to go over this amount of weight or we are not going to take longer than this for the map of data to appear or anything like that? Sophie: Yeah, so we set a performance budget and we've set a few of them; we set one for the front-end so what we've done is build this pattern library and we have all of our, we're calling them "weight-outs" which are basically our different views within the app itself. So we had an initial goal for that, that we've met and then we set a separate one for the build itself and that's still in process, so hopefully we can get around that target. I like this too because instead of having one end-goal we can really check as we go. Tim: Yeah, it's nice to have it broken down like that. Can we ask what the targets are, just out of curiosity? Sophie: I can look them up but I don't know them right now. Tim: That's fine. Just curious. Was it in terms of the weight or is it a different sort of, more like an experience-focused metric or anything like that, that you're targeting? Sophie: Yeah, we did a weight and a load time. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: It sounds like you've worked in some of the perceived performance thinking too when you're saying, what's the critical information to load first. Sophie: Yeah, for me as a designer, that's definitely something that I can relate to more and I think in some ways it's possibly more important. I think they work as a team but… Tim: I think it is. And I think that's…I think or I hope that that's what, within the performance community, the people who really that's what they do focus on, I think that that's where everything is starting to, we're starting to wake up to that and certainly to shift towards understanding that it really is about the experience and making sure that the critical things are coming in, whatever the top task, whatever the most important features are on the page or coming in and measuring those sorts of things, instead of this blind race to the finish that we've kind of had in the past. Sophie: Yeah. I'm curious to see how that thinking changes because I love the idea of a performance budget but I think sometimes it can be a little limiting and you wouldn't want to sacrifice certain things just to fit into the performance budget. Not limiting, but I think it's very concrete whereas it should be a fairly fluid depending on context of the site itself. Tim: Sure, yeah, it doesn't dictate what goes on; it's another consideration or it's part of another piece in the puzzle. Sophie: Right. At the same time, it's the easiest way to communicate goals. Tim: True. It's hard to without it having a hard set thing, it's very hard, yeah. Sophie: Yeah, until you have the design done, you can't say, OK, our goal is that this is going to load and then this is going to load this much later. It helps to have a number that everyone can refer back to. Katie: So, when you say for everyone to communicate, who is that? Is that between you and the developers? Is this something that your leadership is really that's close to their heart as well? Sophie: Yeah, I think when I said that it was more coming from my experience with client work, where you're using this number as a kind of tactic to force a client to decide on certain things. For us, since we're all working internally, I think definitely any…basically, everyone wants to see it be as fast as it possibly can, so we're all working towards the same thing. Katie: Is there ever a push-back to even like, "OK, now that we've hit that, let's try another goal that's even faster"? Sophie: Not yet, because we haven't launched it, but I wouldn't be surprised if we launch it and get certain feedback that it wasn't loading or it wasn't working quite right on something. I'm really curious to see once it's out there and people are using it, how people respond. Katie: Yeah, I'm really curious to see what metrics you find out from that. Tim: Did you make a distinction…there's the cutting the mustard approach that the BBC popularized which is the core experience goes to maybe older, less capable browsers/devices and the enhanced experience goes to everybody else. One of the things that that fails at, or that doesn't take into consideration which seems like it would be really important for Ushahidi is the situation where you have somebody is on a very nice device but the connectivity is really awful. Did you have to make any distinction between different experiences or do you just have one experience and that experience itself is extremely lightweight, no matter what the scenario is? Was that enough for you to accomplish or you needed to do? Sophie: Yeah, that's funny; we had our company retreat in Kenya so it was I think maybe about half, maybe a little less of our company is in the US so we all went there with our snazzy iPhones and still couldn't connect to anything and it really, I think in terms of empathy, made us realize: oh, wait a second. But in terms of yeah, I think we're just going to try to make it fast for everyone. We don't have a whole lot of enhancements for people on quicker systems yet. Katie: When you were in Kenya, were there any things that were especially awful to try to load, like you're used to just being part of your everyday life? I'm just curious. Sophie: I remember reading Twitter, on the Twitter app and everything loaded except for the pictures and it made you realize just how often people supplement their tweets with pictures; I remember getting really frustrated about it. Katie: That's interesting. Sophie: But I didn't even really try to do a lot of stuff because it really didn't look very well. Same thing on Instagram; it's like sometimes this progressive loading thing; I would rather it not load at all than, oh, I see all of these people posted great pictures that I can't look at. I'd rather not know than… Katie: Or like the tweets having fomo, oh, you had a joke and I can't see the punch-line! Sophie: Exactly! Katie: That's really interesting because when we're just designing here in a bubble it's like, "well I think that would be fine for you to just know that it's there but not see it" but then when you're actually using it, you're like: no, this sucks. Sophie: Yeah, it's like actively frustrating. Tim: How often do you get to Kenya? Sophie: I'm new to the company; I've only been here since the beginning of the year but I think they do a retreat every year but not necessarily always in Kenya; I think every other year it's in Kenya. And I think other people on the team, it depends, we'll do these what we call Hit Team Meetings because everyone is remote and then mini-teams will get together and all work together for a week so those have been all over the place since people live on opposite ends of the world, depending on who's meeting they usually choose a place that is fairly central for everyone to get to. Katie: We'll start to have a list of sites, Sophie, how much is this really crappy, wherever you end up going… Sophie: How long does this take? Katie: Look it up and tell me how much it sucks. Sophie: It is cool to have people on the team everywhere for that reason. Tim: Sure, I bet that gives you a really nice overall picture of a whole bunch of different landscapes from a technical perspective. Sophie: Yeah. Katie: I know, I didn't prepare a list of questions like I should have! Tim: It's all right, I'm actually having a lot of fun just going off the cuff on this, knowing almost nothing. I did a little bit of research and I had heard of Ushahidi from this big fat book about mobile on a global scale that was put out a couple of years ago. Sophie: That's cool. What was that book? Tim: It's called Global Mobile. It's six hundred pages and each chapter is written by a different author on a different topic and I think Ushahidi came up twice… Sophie: Oh, that's awesome. Tim: …in the book. Sophie: Do you know what they referenced or what it was…. Tim: One was just talking about how…I don't remember one of the references in much detail. The other one I know that they were talking about a variety of different mobile technological solutions that were out there; I think they were focused primarily on Africa in that chapter or similar areas and they were talking about the different services that are making use of technologies that we might consider a little bit more simple, but they're doing really powerful things with it and so I think that they were focused on the SMS aspect, if I remember right. Sophie: Yeah, it's been definitely challenging, but also interesting that designing a product that is not used for one specific thing; it's very much user-focused and people will download it and decide how they use it, so it's been a challenge to design for that and to keep it well designed but also really, really flexible. Tim: Which is why I guess it's so important I guess that you are getting a chance to experience at least a little bit every once in a while because everybody talks about front-end design perspective, from a development perspective, how important it is to put yourself in your user's shoes and when you're talking about what Ushahidi is dealing with, and it's not just the devices or the browser or the connections: it's the situations; it's just so hard. It's so hard to put yourself in those sorts of shoes and understand what it must feel like to use the application or the site in those sorts of scenarios; that's such a huge challenge. Sophie: Yeah, there's no way that, well it sounds selfish saying it, but hopefully there's no way I would ever actually be able to experience that but I think that is why we have such a strong and valuable user advocacy team so that they can really communicate with them when people are in those situations and as they're using it in those situations. Tim: Do you get feedback from the users that are pertaining directly to things like how quickly they're able to report something or how quickly they're able to get access to the data that's been reported, in terms of it takes too long sort of a thing, not just a usability thing but from a performance perspective? Sophie: We haven't. Or not that I know of. Tim: Well, maybe that means you're doing an awesome job! Sophie: We'll see. It's also tough because the new version is yet to be used on a wide…by a lot of people, so we'll see, but it is great because we have the product is also open source, so we have a lot of community submissions and ideas so this is again the first time I've worked on something like that where I'll just be in my normal task list that we use internally as a team and I will get one from…I'm in Katmandu and this thing is not working; can you add this? So it is really cool to see that people care about improving the product. Tim: That's awesome. Katie: Is there anything that you've learned from going through this process and being hit with all of these pretty heavy design constraints that are just, oh man, there's no way I can ignore that. Has that changed your view on design, even outside of this product in particular? Sophie: I think that this has, compared to how I used to design, I'm keeping things a lot more simple, not even necessarily visually; visually as well but also just in how they work and not trying to dictate how something should work. Oftentimes we'll, with other people in my design team or sometimes with our developers, we'll discuss how something, spend hours doing flows and then just realizing, why don't we just let people do what they want to do and take a step back and not define so much how this should be used, so I think just the fact that so many different people are using it for different ways, I've found that it's often best to leave things open and then to not over-complicate them. Katie: Is that kind of freeing? Sophie: Errr….it's been difficult because I'm so used to not being like that. But yeah, kind of. For me as a designer it's been kind of hard to let go of control. Katie: Yeah, that's usually I think our downfall as designers is wanting to control everything and that's kind of a big part about embracing performance too: it just sounds boring to design for performance, even though it's not and it's just like anything else. Sophie: Yeah, I think that I talked to ??? about this a long, long time ago and I remember it's stuck with me in terms of performance but also it's kind of user advocacy side of design, which is that it's not in conflict with the design; you shouldn't think of performance as taking away from visual design but it's just a piece of design so it's just another aspect of UX and if it loads faster, then that'll make the design better. Katie; It means you did your job well! Sophie. Yeah, exactly. Tim: At the end of the day it's about, especially in your case, but at the end of the day it's really about how quickly can the people using the site or the application get the task done that they came to the site to do and so that makes performance comes right up front and center along with any other bit of the process really, information architecture, clear content structure and good visual design; it all contributes. Sophie: That's what design is, right? Getting people to be able to do what they want as easily as possible. Katie: Is this something that you were thinking about before having these experiences in these other parts of the world, or was that the eye-opener of, oh-whoa, my designs should encapsulate this? Sophie: Yeah, I think it's always something theoretically that I could be like, your designs have to load really fast, of course, but selfishly I've always wanted them to look really cool or try out some latest thing that's trending on the web. So I think it's helped me step out and realize I'm not designing this for me. If I want to try something, I can just do it on my own site. Katie: So, I'm wondering if that's maybe the first step for designers that are not wanting to think about it… Sophie: Make them design something for someone in crisis. Katie: Yeah! Sophie: At an agency, every junior designer has to design for… Tim: Oh man! Sophie: …life or death situations. Katie: It's part of the interview process, you need to whiteboard a crisis design. Sophie: Yeah! Tim: Talk about no pressure right off the gate, that's what you're dealing with! Sophie: Have either of you seen Eric Meyer's presentation? Tim: I have not, but I've heard it's excellent. Sophie: I really want to. Katie: I want to see it as well. Sophie: It sounds really… Katie: Everything you are talking about is making we think of that. Sophie: I would really, really love to hear, I don't know if he would…he could be a good guest on the podcast just to talk about his experience. Tim: Yeah, I'd love to talk to Eric. I've heard the presentation is just fantastic but I haven't had a chance to catch it live. I don't know if it's recorded or not anywhere but if so, I haven't seen it. Katie; I think if any of you want come hang out in Ohio, I believe I would have to double-check, but I think he's giving that Rustbelt Refresh in Cleveland in September. Tim: I do like that conference. I did that last year, it's a lot of fun. Katie: So, you want to come hang out in Ohio and see it? Tim: Sunny Cleveland! Katie: Where the lake caught on fire! Sophie: Oh my God! Tim: I don't think I heard this. Katie; I think it was before I ever lived in Ohio, ten or so years ago. It may have been the river, it may have been the lake, I can't remember. One of them was so polluted that it caught on fire at some point. (45:11) Tim: That sounds a lovely! Sophie: That's terrifying! Tim: My only knowledge of Cleveland, which I think is probably upsetting and insulting to all people who live in Cleveland… Katie: Drew Carey Tim: Yep. So, I apologize for that! Sophie: I've been to Cleveland; I spent two weeks in Cleveland. Katie: What? Sophie: I was going through, you know, being young and wanting to work for Obama during the election but even then, I don't know what's in Cleveland, even after spending time there. Katie: I have been to Cleveland twice and I don't know. I live two hours from it; I couldn't tell you what's in Cleveland. Sophie: Really cheap houses if I remember; lots of empty, cheap houses! Katie: One time I tried out to be on The Price is Right this is when Drew Carey was the host and because I am really bad at being like, wooow, cookie-crazy person to be on The Price is Right, they interview every person that goes through the process and like, "why should we pick you?" and my only response was just like, "I'm from Ohio. Just like Drew. Cleveland Rocks, right?" Sophie: Certainly good for TV. Katie: Yeah, well, we'll talk about Ohio. Obviously I did not make it! Tim: That's sad! Sophie: There's still hope; you could try again. Tim: Don't give up on that. Katie: No, that was actually…. Sophie: Don't give up on your dreams. Tim: No, you've got to follow through. Katie: That was horrific; you're just like cattle being herded for six hours through this line as they interview every single person that goes in the thing, so if you're ever in LA and thinking, it would be fun to go on The Price is Right: it's not. Sophie: Think again! Katie: Sophie, you never did that when you lived there? Sophie: A lot of people I knew did. Katie: Did anyone ever get picked? Sophie: They did it…I grew up in LA and they filmed Jeopardy I think right next to my High School and they would do it as a fundraising thing where you would…they'd get a group things of tickets to Jeopardy and then the cheerleading squad or whoever would try to sell them individually. Katie: Whoa! Sophie: That's the closest I've gotten. Katie: Growing up in LA sounds wildly different from anywhere else! Was it? Sophie: We didn't have any lakes that lit on fire! Katie: Wasn't your High School the one from Grease? Sophie: Yep! Katie: Oh man. Sophie: And Party of Five. Is that what that show was called? Katie: Yeah. Tim: That's kinda cool. Katie: I'm more interested in Rydell High though. Sophie: I think they filmed it in partially different schools but the stadium was our stadium. Katie: The track where Danny's trying to be a jock and running around? Sophie: Yeah, yeah. Katie: Aw man, that's the worst part when Danny's trying to be a jock! Sophie: Wonder Years. Wonder Years, that's the block I grew up on. Katie: Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: Dang, you have Wonder Years, Alison has Dawson's Creek. Sophie: Dawson's Creek. Way before my time. Katie: I want to grow up on a teen drama! Sophie: The Yellow Brick Road was also the street, from the Wizard of Oz. Tim: Where was the Yellow Brick Road? Sophie: Before the houses were built, they filmed it on the street that my house was on. Tim: What? Sophie: And then years later, they had a reunion for all of the oompa-loompas that I accidentally walked on and I was sort of….what? Katie: Were they dressed up? Sophie: No. Tim: Wait, wait, wait…you just said oompa-loompas, but isn't that…that's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, right? Sophie: Not oompa-loompas. Munchkins! The Munchkins! Tim: I was like, wait a minute… Katie: Glad you got that 'cos I didn't! Sophie: I didn't either, I was like, this sounds right. Tim: Yeah, OK, I just wanted to clarify which movie it was. Sophie: Can we cut this out? We're going to get complaints from Little People of America organization. Tim: Yeah, that's fine. Actually we could use a few complaints. We haven't got many or any yet. Katie: Thanks for bringing it up. Now we're going to….well, if you're looking for feedback, let me tell you...you can lay off the chit-chat. Tim: We've gotten plenty, plenty of negative feedback and complaints so please don't bother sending those emails or letters. There, that should… Katie: I'm going to write you a strongly worded letter about your podcast! Tim: It happens. Sophie: This really went off the rails! Tim: It did, but you know what? That's cool. That's all right. I feel like… (50:03) Katie: It was getting really heavy, so you know we to lighten it up. Tim: It was, we had to lighten it up and I feel like it's kind of weird that we had gone this far without talking about Drew Carey so, you know, however many episodes we're into this and Drew Carey had never come up; seems wrong. Katie: Really? Sophie: Give us some Drew Carey facts, Katie! Katie: Actually, well I don't know any Drew Carey facts but I'm sure Tim has lots because that seems like that's your era of TV. Tim: I'm not that old, all right? Katie: Yeah, but Everybody Loves Raymond, you'll never… Tim: Yeah, I actually had…. Sophie: Are you Everybody? Tim: No, no. Am I? Sophie: Do you love Raymond? Tim: I do love Raymond; I do. It was a good show, all right? It was a good show. Under-appreciated by the current generation! Sophie: It was the most popular show ever at the time. Tim: It was really popular; really popular. Sophie: Did you just watch it on multiple TVs over and over again to up the ratings? Tim: Errr…. Katie: He had it going on every TV in the house, the whole day and night! Sophie: The syndication too so they're getting those checks, all from Tim! Katie: Tim loves Raymond! Sophie: New TV show! Tim: All right, all right; neither one of you are ever invited back on this podcast; even you, Katie. That's it, that's the end of it. I'm going to go start my own podcast where we're going to talk about Everybody Loves Raymond and The Drew Carey Show and things like that. Katie: Indiana Jones Tim: Indiana Jones, yep. This really did get off the rails. My gosh! Sophie: Yeah, feel weird going back to talking about crisis. Tim: So, well, you know, maybe we don't, there was a lot of really good, like Katie said, it was getting really serious and really awesome discussion, I think, around performance and it was really cool to hear somebody who is coming at it from that global perspective which, it's just not something that we commonly think about a lot, for most of us aren't dealing with on a day to day basis, so it's really interesting to have somebody come in and burst the bubble a little bit and give us a broader perspective. Katie: Yeah, it's great because I think like you said, Sophie, earlier: in theory everybody's like, it's nice and stuff and obviously we talk a lot about performance and everything and it's one of those things that I think everybody is like, yeah, yeah, in theory yeah, we want it to be fast because we don't want to be shamed by Twitter, but… Sophie: Other web designers! Katie: Yeah, basically. So it's great for you to come in here and give us the perspective of what that actually means and hopefully shed some light on that empathy. Sophie: Yeah, thank you for having me. Katie: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Tim: Going forward, it anybody wants to follow along and hear more about what Ushahidi's doing or about what you're doing, how do they do that? Sophie: For Ushahidi, I would recommend following Ushahidi on Twitter, ushahidi.com for a lot of information about all their different products and blogposts and then for me, my website is sophieshepherd.com Tim: Very cool. Katie: What about any social media that you may have because, I might be biased, but I think Sophie you have a pretty good account that's pretty funny! Sophie: My Twitter unfortunately is sophshepherd, because there's a British teenager named Sophie Shepherd who took that from me. So, don't follow her unless you want to hear a lot of complaining about tests and boyfriends. Katie: Do you follow her? Sophie: Occasionally! Then I get too mad about it and then I think, what if they think it's me? Katie: Is she also blonde and kind of looks like you? Sophie: Yeah, I've sent her a message; she does kind of. I sent her a message on Facebook once and she went, what are you freak? And then that was it. Katie; Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: She called you a freak? Sophie: Yeah. I'll put a screenshot in our speaker notes! Katie: OK, well follow the real Sophie Shepherd then. Sophie: Yep. Tim: Well, thank you and we'll definitely have to have you on again to discuss because I feel like there's a lot more we could get into in terms of Drew Carey and Ray Romano, so in a future episode. Katie: You can do that on your separate…Everyone Loves Ray. Tim: And Tim Loves Raymond. Yeah, that's good. It'll be the initial episode. Sophie:: Tim and Ray. All right. Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thanks; bye. Katie: Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Path to Performance podcast. You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes or on our site pathtoperf.com; you can also follow along on Twitter @pathtoperf. We'd love to hear what you thought so feel free to drop us a note on Twitter or leave a raving and overly kind review on iTunes. We like to read those. And if you'd like to talk about being a guest or sponsoring a future episode, feel free to email us at hello@pathtoperf.com