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Money doesn't change you. It reveals YOU! Today's episode is unlike any others we've done so far…. Why? Because I'm recording this intro from LA. Instead of being in Tampa, Florida to speak at Freedom Queen Live. SO, this episode was a major change of plans. But don't worry - I've got a short juicy episode on a major money realisation I had. I found the proof, and now I want you to look for your own. I had always heard the phrase “money doesn't change you. It amplifies you”… but until this moment, as I was shopping in Belgium whilst masterminding with my business friend Laura… It never had truly sunk IN! So, I want you to listen to this episode and then FIND YOUR OWN PROOF!! Loved this episode? Don't forget to subscribe and share it with someone who could use a mindset shift around money. Let's continue this conversation and grow together. – Want more? 1. Hit follow! New episodes of She Got Lucky drop every Monday. 2. Get my ⁠⁠FREE 5-Day Reels Challenge⁠⁠ - perfect if you're a coach or service business and you've been taking a break from reels or need to rediscover your reels mojo. This is the perfect place to start! 3. Want to be on the podcast? Send Alisha a voice message via ⁠⁠Instagram here⁠⁠ with your own 'She Got Lucky' Story or a question you'd like have your question answered in an upcoming episode. 4. Follow Alisha on ⁠⁠Instagram here.⁠⁠ 5. Connect with Alisha on ⁠⁠LinkedIn here.⁠⁠ 6. Order your own Full & Filled glass ⁠⁠here⁠⁠ and use "SHEGOTLUCKYPOD" for 15% off.

Move over, Laura--It's Marypalooza here at the pod! We had so many more questions for our wonderful guest, Melissa Anderson, she graciously agreed to join us again for Part 2! We hear her thoughts on how Little House impacted her life, being -or not being- a part of Little House events and celebrations, and how she was viewed in the industry as a young Hollywood starlet. She explains her exit from acting, and how her focus on her family and being a parent out of the spotlight played a huge role in her personal fulfillment. And see Pamela gobsmacked by Melissa's praise of Livin' On a Prairie! (*gasp!) And then, a whole slew of your fantastic listener questions! Join us on Patreon, where you can hear Melissa answer many more of your questions, as well as Alison asking about the infamous HAND SLAP of Melissa Gilbert from "Country Girls"! Was it meant to hurt? Find out on Patreon!For more info go to:PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/LittleHousePodcastwww.LittleHouse50Podcast.com to connect with our hosts and link to their websites.*The merch shop is under renovation - we will keep you posted on the status!*www.LivinOnaPrairieTV.com  Check out this Award Winning Series created by Pamela Bob, with special guest stars Alison Arngrim and Charlotte Stewart.Little House 50th Anniversary Bus Tours - www.SimiValleyChamber.org  select Little House 50th Anniversary and then Bus TicketsFacebook/Instagram/TikTok:Dean Butler @officialdeanbutlerAlison Arngrim @alisonarngrimPamela Bob @thepamelabob, @prairietvLITTLE HOUSE EVENTSAugust 16th-17th Tombstone, AZBook SigningAddress: 530 East Allen St. Tombstone AZ 85638RSVP at Eventbrite: Tombstone Book Signing Event - Dean Butler & Special GuestsAugust 30th-Sept. 1st Watertown, CThttps://www.eventbrite.com/e/little-house-50th-cast-reunion-ct-tickets-753166881417Address: Connecticut Convention Center100 Columbus Boulevard Hartford, CT 06103September 3rd-4th 2024, Lancaster, PA https://www.eventbrite.com/e/792807006097?aff=oddtdtcreatorFarm & Home CenterAddress: 1383 Arcadia Road Lancaster, PA 17601September 14th-15th Lyles, TNJohnny Cash's Hideaway FarmAddress: 9347 Old Highway 46 Lyle, TN 37025Sept 27-29, 2024 SDCarrie DaysKeystone Community CenterSeptember 27th-29th Mansfield, MOWilder DaysAddress: 100 E ParksquareMansfield, MO  65704United StatesOctober 4th & 5th - Tulsa, OKOctober 18th & 19th - Almanzo Wilder HomesteadNovember 16th & 17th -  Branson, MOBranson Convention Center200 South Sycamore Street Branson, MO 65616December 6th-8th : Corsicana, TXhttps://www.eventbrite.com/e/923124278567?aff=oddtdtcreatorCONFESSIONS OF A PRAIRIE BITCH-ALISON'S ONE-WOMAN SHOWAugust 1 at 7pm Oasis (298 11th St, San Francisco, CA 94103)Tickets at www.sfoasis.com**WITH A SURPRISE SPECIAL GUEST**ADDITIONAL SIGNINGSAlison and Melissa Gilbert will be appearing at:FAN X in Salt Lake City,  Sept 26 - 28https://fanxsaltlake.com/FACEBOOK LIVE with PAMELA and DEANhttps://fb.watch/sXZvDxawWr/

Lorna's continues her tale.In 8 parts, By jane700bond. Listen to the ► Podcast at ExplicitNovels. Next to the school was a park and in we went skipping still arm in arm. There on the park bench sat Iain who had been on the Duke of Edinburgh camping adventure with us."Hi Iain!" Laura shouted as we went and sat down on either side of him. "Why aren't you in school?""Mr bloody Brown did not like my bloody brown shoes! 'They should be black!' he said. 'Wrong uniform, no entry.' He bloody said that even though he knew I won the physics prize." Thank the gods, we will never have to come back to this bloody place. I bet it was because of what happened on camp with that perverted bastard.""We'll cheer you up!" I said and for the first time he looked up from his misery and looked at the pair of us properly."Wow!" he said when he saw how we were dressed. He ogled my cleavage and then ogled Lorna's on the other side of him. "How about we have our own prize-giving!" I suggested.Iain smiled warmly, laid a hand on my knee and a hand on Laura's knee and suggested we went for a coffee. So, we all three got up and holding hands went to the local coffee shop and ordered lattés and pain au chocolat.We sat down at a small round table where our legs met underneath. Iain sat with his knees apart and one leg between my legs and one leg between Laura's legs. The wool of his trousers felt hot against my bare skin, but I shivered with anticipation and pushed myself further in, Iain's leg pushing my skirt back up my thighs until his knee was pushing against my cunt. I felt a warm blush on my cheeks and breathed out heavily."Must go to the loo!" Said Iain suddenly and with a wink at me, got up disappeared through the door marked toilets.Laura looked at me, in that way twin sisters do, and we both agreed I should follow him. So, checking the barista was too busy to notice, I got up and followed him. Iain was in an outer room and as soon as I appeared, he guided me into one of the combined toilet and washrooms and locked the door behind us. He was on me in a moment, grabbing my head and pulling it towards him so we could kiss deeply. He was taller than me and after a few moments he put his arms around me and lifted me up. I wrapped my legs around his waist ramming my clit on the cold hard metal of his belt buckle. I could feel the head of his cock hard up against my cunt trying to force its way through the layers of clothes. We kissed with passionate abandonment, his hands playing and massaging my bottom and digging deeper into my panties to find my now burning cunt.He swung me around and placed me a wide shelf. His hands pushed at the shoulders of my blazer and peeled it back over my arms and dumped it on the floor, then he was at the knot in my blouse and freed my breasts, massaging them and tweaking my nipples.All the time, our tongues entwined and our kisses became deeper. Then his hand found the buckle of my kilt and pulling it away his tongue left my breathless mouth and he dived between my legs. He pulled the damp panties aside and drove his tongue deep into my slit, as I moaned with pleasure. His tongue worked and his nose rubbed against my clit. Coming up for air, Iain pushed my legs together, lifted me, and pulled my knickers down and off. Iain then lifted my legs apart so that each foot was up on the shelf and my naked steaming cunt was wide open before him, my juices glistening as he undid his trousers and freed his dick from his pants.I expected him to thrust fast and deep, but he held back, rubbing his penis up and down the labia, then he played his red helmet against my clit. I groaned and shuddered and he repeated the process, playing his dick against my slit, while his hands played with my tits. I was growing desperate for the length of him to thrust deep within me. Then his pushed the helmet half in, then out again and down and up my slit it went, always finally rubbing against my clit.My juiced were flowing and Iain bent down and rubbed his face against me, his tongue lapping my honey and his teeth nipping my clit. Then face wet with my sex he spread my juices over my nipples as he suckled me, the tip of his dick still exploring the outer reaches of my wet cave, but not going fully in. A hand went down and played with me whilst his mouth massaged my wet breasts, all the while my moans were getting louder.Iain stood up his put his honey-dewed hand to my lips to taste and we kissed and shared my love juice, licking his fingers clean between us. He stood upright and stepped forward, this time his long hard pole going unresisting deep inside my hot wet cunt; I nearly screamed with pleasure. His hands now on my knees, keeping my legs spread wide he thrust, again and again, my cunt muscles grabbing his full length and then letting go as we got into rhythm. I put a hand on my clit and started to bring myself off and swirls of heavenly delight lit up my brain. This was one of the best fucks I had ever had, and it went on, Iain thrusting long slow and deep inside me as my clit hardened towards climax. My muscles tightened on his shaft and I felt the tipping point approaching, then the world went red as the deluge of delight passed through me, and a double orgasm in my clit and my vagina hit me and I shouted aloud, hoping it would go on forever. Iain lifted me, his cock still deep inside, off from the shelf and onto the toilet seat, then he pulled out and thrust his dick into my open mouth and spurted a huge surge of hot cum. There was so much, I thought I might choke and I pulled him out of my mouth. The rest of his load sprayed over my face and tits.There was a frantic knock on the door. "Shit!" said Iain."It's me." Whispered a friendly voice and Iain opened the door to let in Laura. "Fuck me." She said "What have I missed? It sounded great." She eyed Iain's still rampant cock with the last of the cum, glistening on the tip. "Time to clean-up?"Without wasting time, Laura knelt in-front of Iain and took him in her mouth, while I sat on the loo completely bemused and befuddled. "Not much there." She said after a moment eyeing me. Then she moved in-front of me and started licking the cum off my face and rubbing my nipples with the cum on my breasts. Then she gave me a deep very spunky and not very sisterly kiss.Releasing me she said. "Umm! That is one cock each we've had so far today, but I haven't been fucked, so I reckon you're up on me sis. Where to next girls and boys?"There was another knock on the door, not friendly this time, and a shout of "Oi, what you lot doing in there! Get out you filthy lot." It was our friendly barista.Iain and I quickly dressed and we marched out to find him scowling outside. "Bloody school kids!" He moaned. "I ought to tell the fucking head-teacher about this. "Get back to school you perves and don't come back."We were soon back in the street and started walking back past the school gate. I had that wonderful warm glow on my insides that was the after-burn from that brilliant fuck, but like any identical twin, I knew my sister Laura was becoming desperate for the same thing. As we passed the gate, Miss Muffet called out to us. "Hey you three, hold on a moment!""You are needed for the Duke of Edinburgh Award presentation. Girls, if you follow me to my office, we will see if we can do something about your clothes. Iain, could you get together the other Duke of Edinburgh pupils and bring them to my office at, say 11:00?"With that Iain, with a broad grin on his face went off alone and we followed Miss Muffet.Her "office" was attached to the gym and besides a desk, there was loads of gym equipment and a shower where she could freshen up in private after exercising with the pupils. She locked the door and then said: "Right! I want you to take off those high-heels and stand together beside the sink, lets deal with the lipstick first."So Laura and I stood side by side and Miss Muffet got a tissue dampened it and started to rub it gently over my lips, the bright red coming off onto the white of the tissue. She stood very close and I could feel her breasts brushing mine and her warm sweet breath on my cheek. Then she moved on to Laura and started on her lips. Her breathing was becoming heavier and her movements becoming slower and more deliberate.She stood back and looked at us and seemed satisfied that our lips would now pass muster. "Now, "she said, "Those blouses are a mess."Standing in front of me, she undid the bow of my blouse and exposed my breasts. As she moved to Laura she brushed her hand against on left nipple and made me gasp. Then she stood in front of Laura and slowly undid her blouse. Laura smiled at her, and showed the tip of her tongue through her lips.This very strange situation got even stranger when Miss Muffet took my left breast in one hand and Laura's right breast in the other. "You know," said Miss Muffet, huskily, "you two are not quite identical, Laura, you've got bigger boobs." We both giggled and Miss Muffet's hands started not just to hold our breasts, but slowly caress them, squeezing our nipples between her thumb and forefinger, making them go hard.Then the teacher suddenly said "I can smell sex! Lorna, you appear to have some dry sperm here above your nipple and Laura, is that sperm on your neck? I better clean you up." Miss Muffet, was slightly taller than us and was really quite beautiful and as she leant forward and licked away a line of Iain's spunk from my cleavage I found I was beginning to really enjoy myself, especially as her tongue came across and circled my nipple, making me go tingly inside.Laura, started to move, but Miss Muffet said "No, just stand still! We still need to sort out your clothes." So, Laura stood there as Miss Muffet came back to her and, starting with the remains Adrian's cum, on her neck she kissed and licked her way down taking one of Laura's breasts in her mouth and suckling and then the other. Laura was beginning to moan in excitement.Suddenly, very business-like, Miss Muffet stood up straight and told us we would need to wear something else other than our blouses and she had spare gym tops we could use. "Right," she said, as though this was a lesson, "Turn to face each other. Closely now! Go on push yourselves tightly together." So, Laura and I stood, nose to nose, toe to toe and nipple pressing hard into nipple with great grins on our faces.Miss Muffet, started to peel off our blouses, leaving our naked backs fully exposed. Then she placed one hand on my skirt and the other on Laura's and said she was not sure the skirts would do either. In unison her two hands went down and under our kilts and she start caressing our bums, her hands pushing inside our knickers and playing over our smooth skin. Her face was flushed and she breathed heavily on our faces as she explored our soft silky flesh, working her way back and down towards our cracks. Laura's lips parted and her tongue licked my lips and we began to kiss and gyrate our breasts together as our juices started to flow in anticipation. "Gosh," said Miss Muffet, like some character out of Enid Blyton "I have fantasized about making love with you two since I first came here." Which was not a very Enid Blyton thing to say, but nice to know.Then I felt a thumb pushing against my crack and Laura and I moaned simultaneously as Miss Muffet started to push her thumbs up along our cracks until they came to our clits. Laura and I ground our breasts together, my nipples heating like fire. Then Laura was kissing me greedily. The edge of Miss Muffet's thumbnail met my engorged clit, which was still too sensitive after sex with Iain, and I gave a loud gasp.Miss Muffet straightened. "Right! I can still smell sex. Stand side by side again." We unwillingly parted again, I could see my saliva wet upon Laura's lips and my nipples hardened being exposed to the comparative cold. We stood still and excited as Miss Muffet deliberate lifted her hands to her nose and sniffed one and then the other."Lorna," she said "I do believe that you have had sex recently, don't deny it! Laura, you are wetter and hotter and I do believe you missed out on your sister's debauchery despite that obvious sperm I just removed from your neck. But I think a closer inspection is required. Please lie on my desk, knees up and legs apart!"Grinning impishly, Laura moved across the room and sat and they lay back on the desk and opened her legs. Her panties were very damp and pushed to one side exposing her pink gash.Miss Muffet started to take off her own blouse and sports bra, exposing a beautiful pair of breasts, the size of large oranges. "Wouldn't want to get any of your lovely fluids on my clothes, would we, whilst I am forced to undergo this messy inspection." she said. She then got a pair of scissors off the desk and cut through Laura's wet kickers exposing her baby smooth mound with its delicate landing strip.Miss Muffet then leant over the desk and sniffed deeply into Laura's crotch. With her nose she started to trace a line up and down Laura's cunt lips and pushing into her clit. Laura was loving it and squirmed as Miss Muffet started to use her tongue to lap up Laura's flowing juices. Then I saw Miss Muffet use her fingers to widen Laura's crack and with her tongue she fluttered Laura's clit. Slowly the teacher inserted a finger and started finger fucking Laura whilst tonguing her clit ever harder.I was beginning to get a little jealous. Miss Muffet was wearing track-suit bottoms, so I grabbed them and pulled them down to her ankles. She had come to school commando style and wore no panties, so I put my hand between her legs and felt her vagina burning not and wet. She gasped and began even more actively to tongue and finger-fuck Laura who had started to softly repeat "Fuck, fuck, fuck!" as the teacher expertly played with her sex.I rubbed Miss Muffet's slit and as my index finger found her clit, my thumb glided deeply into her hot wet cunt and I started to fuck her with my thumb in time with her finger fucking Laura. After a few minutes, Miss Muffet stood up and turned to me, grabbing me close and kissing me deeply with her mouth tasting of Laura's honey juices. Her hand went down and found my slit and she started playing with me as her tongue tried to go deep down into my throat.Laura, put her arms around the teacher and grabbing her breasts she pulled her back on to the desk. Miss Muffet lay on her back with her legs dangling down over the edge of the desk. Laura, went and sat on her face and I went down on her slit, tonguing her and getting two of my fingers deep into her twat fucking her hard. Her legs went up and around me, pulling me into her wet steaming mound and her, now flowing juices, covered my face. She bucked and Laura bounced up and down on Miss Muffet's face in obvious pleasure. Still tonguing her hard clit, I inserted another finger into her now gaping hole and fucked her faster as with my other hand I started rubbing my own clit. We were all forming and rhythm and all three of us were soon heading towards a massive climax.However, just before I could finish myself off there was an enormous noise. We leapt apart and found Iain was clambering in through the office window and was being followed by our other friends who had been with us on the camping trip. "Excuse me Miss," said Iain tamely, "but we were all getting rather jealous watching from outside. Diana here had already started to finger herself and I thought, we better come in before someone else along and spies you. Besides, to tell you the truth, I have had fantasies about you since you first arrived, can I have permission to join in, please, er Miss?"And us!" called out our big busted friend Diana and the elvish Sophie. Rugby playing Jamie and David and Tom grinned helplessly at us. Laura and I grinned back, whilst Miss Muffet whose flushed face was soaked in Laura's juices, slowly got off the table and looked at the interlopers. "Well," she said, you better close that window and pull down the blind before we do anything else. And since we are getting to know each other better, you better call me Jess, rather than Miss."Jamie jumped to the window to close it and pulled down the black blind as Tom went and switched on the light. Dave said "Wow, that was an amazing show you three were putting on, my tonker is so hard its hurting."It was the small blonde, innocent looking Sophie who took Jamie in hand and this started the proceedings. She knelt in front of him, undid his belt and freed his throbbing dick. She said, "Turned me on too!" and without a moment's hesitation took Jamie's length deep into her mouth and starting pulling back and forth with her saliva glistening along its length.Naked Jess, our 22-year-old trainee teacher walked over to Iain and grasped his head. "OK, little boy," she said, "let's see what you're made of. " She pushed him back against the wall kissing him deeply, sharing Laura's honey juices with him. She lifted her right leg over his hip and ground her naked mound into his groin. Laura, my nympho sister went over to Diana and started hurriedly undoing her blouse, and then freeing her beautiful boobs from the confines of her bra.Dave and Tom, who were experts in synchronised fucking grabbed me and laid me on the desk. My head went over the end and upside down I saw Dave pull his trousers down and free his bouncing hard-on. Then offered his cock to my mouth, slipping it in deep. Meanwhile, unseen, Tom, undid himself at the other end and started to play his cock against my clit and slit. Wow, I was going to be fucked again!It was difficult to see what else was going on in that small office when you are on your back and a one guy is thrusting deep into your mouth whilst another is thrusting deep into your love tunnel, but there seemed to be no shortage of activity. I grabbed and played with my own breasts as the boys worked their magic, once again getting hotter and hotter and nearer climax.After a few more thrusts, Dave and Tom withdrew and swapped positions. But this time, instead of fucking me, Dave went down with his tongue and Tom started kissing me and tweaking my nipples. Then he was massaging his dick over my tits, pre-cum oozing lubricating oil from the tip of his penis.I finally managed to look to one side and saw Iain fucking Jess from behind, her arms on the office wall and her breasts swinging lose in rhythm and Iain long strong thrusts.Sophie was naked and clasping herself around Jamie's neck as he thrust up into her from below. Diana and Laura were in 69 with mouths clasped tight into each other's cunts with Diana on top. I started to sit up. "Dave, Tom" I said, "Laura needs a good fuck!"Willing to oblige they went over to the two girls.Now, later as we walked back towards the school bus, I was feeling flushed and fulfilled. My love tunnel was still hot from all the fucking, my clit was still hard and humming. I have to admit I was having a little difficulty walking straight. We were now wearing track suit bottoms and polo shirts borrowed from Jess, but we no longer needed to make an impression. I was satisfied. We were satisfied, we had just had the best fuck ever.I vividly remembered various parts of the that orgy that would still turn me on, just thinking about them a year later.There was the moment when I was on all fours on the desk with Dave in my mouth and Tom making deep sweeping thrusts into my love tunnel and Dave couldn't hold it any longer and filled my mouth with hot spunk. My beautiful Sophie pushed him out of the way and drove her tongue into my mouth to share a drink of his sperm forcing me on my back and lying on top of me, passionately grinding her hard nipples into mine as Tom now fucked her from behind. I do love sex with Sophie and the memory sharing that cum with her as she approached climax was something I dreamt about in later days.There was the moment when Laura and I were lying side by side with Jamie fucking one of us and then the other whilst we kissed. Then Jamie couldn't hold any longer and coming around came over our tits and the Laura and I were on top of each other massaging the cum into each other's nipples as our bodies slid up and down with the lubricating cum.Then there was the best bit! I was lying on my back the desk with Diana sitting on my face facing away from me whilst I gave her tongue, drinking in her sex. Dave was standing legs astride my head with his dick in Diana's mouth face fucking her making her juices flow freely and she rubbed her clit to climax over my nose. Jess's head was between my legs and she was using her tongue hard on my clit, whilst two fingers were fucking me hard. She was bouncing into me as Tom fucked her from behind. Sophie had my right breast in her mouth and sucked and nipped at my nipples whilst Laura was latched onto my left breast doing the same. Meanwhile Iain fucked Laura from behind and Jamie was ramming his boner into Sophie. It was heaven, it was ecstasy, as every bit of me was singing in sheer lustful joy as everyone fucked everyone to the same rhythm with me in the middle. I started to cum and there was a great chorus of release as everyone else came at the same time in one great orgy of orgasms, hot sperm flooding into Jess, Sophie and Laura's dripping cunts and down Diana's welcoming throat.There was not much to tell after that. Having exhausted our teenage lust, we gradually pulled ourselves together, petted and kissed and washed each other in Jess's shower. Then borrowing clothes from Jess, it was time to go home with fond kisses and hugs and prom

The Convent Virgin Comes To VisitIn 8 parts, By jane700bond. Listen to the ► Podcast at ExplicitNovels. Swinging forward in time again to the summer, I thought you might want to know about my next adventure with the twins. We had fucked again that day in the field. Well, after 15 minutes lying with twin naked blondes on either side of you; you try and stop getting another hard-on!It wasn't quite as wild as the first time. You could say it had a more gentle and leisurely rhythm, you could also say it was absolutely fantastic and I thought at the time, I would be wanking myself to sleep for years to come just thinking about it, but there were even better times to come. Anyway whilst I was helping Laura and Lorna back on with their clothes (it's very distracting doing up a girls bra when she cannot keep her hands away from rubbing your balls), they invited me over for a swim at the farm the next day.The day dawned, just like the previous day, with gorgeous sunshine and about 11am I was riding my bike towards the Cramwell's farm. Riding a bike is not too easy with a hard-on, but I could not get the memory of those two perfect bodies out of my mind and I was already wondering how we might contrive to have more sex together when I got there. John would probably be out working somewhere, but I bet their mother, Lucy would be there.In fact, when I arrived the girls explained that Lucy had gone out for the day with the twins' younger sister Alice, who was into ponies. They had departed for some sort of Pony Club event and would not be back until the evening.However, their cousin Samantha was staying. The girls were in matching pink bikinis and had been in the kitchen, looking out for me when I arrived and explained with whispered giggles that they were hoping to smuggle me upstairs for ½ hour before Samantha saw me."She's not really the sort who would approve of sex. She's been at a Convent school," Laura explained, "so, she's very pure! She's sunbathing at the moment by the pool, (needs to, poor lamb, she's very pale) so we thought we could show you our bedroom, oh God, I have been feeling randy all morning, just thinking about you coming over. Yesterday was fantastic."Lorna said quietly "I think my sister is a bit of a nympho." and took my hand and then pulled me all the way upstairs.These two girls could best be described as tigers. I would have liked to have described the bedroom, the two single beds, the walls covered in pictures of boy bands and hunky film stars, the nice antique furniture etc., however, as soon as I was in the room Laura (probably a bit louder than sensible) shouted to Lorna "Get him!" and I was pushed onto one of the beds. As fast as lightning, the girls were on top of me, Lorna on my chest and Laura on my legs. I twisted and turned and suddenly all three of us fell off the narrow bed on to the floor in a screaming giggling mess of arms and legs."Shush!" whispered Laura "Sam will hear!"And then, still sitting on top of my legs made a grab for the top of my shorts. Lorna meantime with one leg underneath me and the other wrapped around my neck was pushing her groin into my face.I pulled the bikini bottom aside with my teeth and plunged my tongue into her hot cunt. She screamed. Laura meanwhile had undone the top of my shorts and was plunging my cock into her mouth.‘What about foreplay?' I thought, as the world went misty.Both girls used their free hands to take off their bikini tops and Laura had her bikini bottoms half way down her legs when Samantha walked in, my cock was still rammed well into Laura's mouth, my teeth were teasing Lorna's clit and she was rubbing her breasts. It must have been a wonderful sight for the poor girl to see the three of us on the floor.We froze. Cousin Samantha was a brunette unlike her cousins and smaller at about 5'3", which made her look younger than her 18 years. Petite I think is the term. She was also in a bikini, which showed her pale white skin. She was very pretty with a small pert mouth a few freckles and blue eyes, but, well also pretty flat-chested.She stood there for a moment with a look of total disbelief on her face, "I; I, I heard a scream and came to see if you were alright." She stammered out.Laura slowly let my cock out of her mouth, which was beginning to shrivel with embarrassment. My mouth became unglued from Lorna's clit and Sam took a step further into the room, her face going a fine rose colour.Laura said "Um, Sam, this is Rick. Rick, this is our cousin Sam." Which I thought was pretty cool considering.Sam took another step into the room. "Lucy's not back 'til this evening, is that right?" she asked.Lorna looked at her cousin closely and then answered "Er, yes Cuz," and then holding my now nearly limp cock in her hand asked "Sam, can I introduce you to Rick's dick?"This was becoming unreal. Sam took another step towards us smiled and said "Nice to meet you Dick. Do we shake?""Well, shake is one way of describing it, just come and hold him in your hand." invited Laura. Sam came and knelt beside us. She gently took my cock in her hand and it started to stand up once more. "Wow," said Sam as it grew in her inexperienced hand, "does it taste good?" She asked Lorna."Well, you see that little droplet on the top? Have a quick taste of that." Sam slowly lowered herself and licked my pre-cum with the tip of her tongue."Nice", said Sam and licked again, slowly working her tongue around the still growing crown of my glory.Laura unwound herself from around my neck and got up. Then both she and Lorna together knelt beside Samantha, and slowly massaged her back, while Sam got more adventurous with her tongue. She held my balls in one hand and then started to lick along the full length of my shaft which danced in response to her gentle movements.Then suddenly Sam took me in her small mouth, she went down about two inches and then pulled back, her sharp white teeth gently dragging up the length. I let out a groan. She did it again and then again and then began to get into a rhythm.Lorna and Laura, were still massaging her back. Lorna then undid Sam's bikini top and put a hand on her small left breast and started to massage. Laura's massage went further and further down Sam's back, playing over her bikini bottoms and then down towards her thighs. Her hand slipped between Sam's legs and Sam put her spare hand back, & took Laura's hand and held it there. Laura started slowly to rub Sam's clit through the bikini.Sam went a shade pinker and with a gasp her mouth went down a further inch on my cock. This was getting a bit too exciting for me and I gently clasped my hands on either side of Sam's head and lifted her from her work. I lifted my torso and gently brought my lips her hers and kissed her long and full. Her small perfect lips tasted like cherry. I moved my legs so that she was kneeling between them and put my hands to her small hard nipples and slowly excited them as Sophie had shown me.The kiss ended, and again she moved her mouth down onto my cock. She lifted her bottom in the air and Laura started to tease her fingers between the elastic of her bikini bottom and her skin. Lorna, always the fast mover suddenly just pulled them down revealing Sam's swollen vagina to the girls at the back. Whilst Sam caressed my dick and balls, the twins took turns to use their tongues on the moist hot slit and clit, making her buck and gasp and take gentle nips.Lorna then lay with her back on the floor and parted Sam's legs, moving her head between them. She then lifted herself so she could start licking Sam's clit. Down the line, Laura moved between her sister's legs and started work with her tongue on Lorna. I couldn't believe my eyes. There they were in a line; Sam between my legs sucking me off, Lorna, underneath Sam sucking her and Laura at the back arse in the air sucking Lorna and all of them moaning and bucking. It was too much, I felt the surge and gasped as I came in Sam's mouth, the creamy spunk surging from my cock.There was loads of cum, and Sam released me showing a mouth filled with my cream. She sat on Lorna's face and bucked and screamed in ecstasy as Lorna's work on her clit brought her to her orgasm. I was still shooting and Laura left her position at the back of the line and came around took Sam in her arms and started French kissing her sperm filled mouth. Her hands sought my cock and she took more of the oozing cum and started massaging it into Sam's hard nipples and then her own.The girl's pressed against each other sperm covered breasts sliding over each other as they kissed deeply, sharing and savouring the taste of my cum.Sam's orgasm went on and on and Laura became more and more intense with her deep kissing. I put my left hand between her legs, found her hot clit and rubbed hard and fast. I then worked first one finger and then another into the hot vagina whilst using my thumb on her clit. My other hand cupped Sam's small  ass cheek. Lorna was using Sam's juices to lubricate her own clit and soon both twins were near to coming in their excitement. Even though I'd just cum, the sight of the three girls was just too much for me and I felt ready to start again. My spunk covered dick was hard and eager. I got up and moved around to where Lorna lay on the floor with her head under Sam's ass. I parted her legs and lifted her up so I could sink my shaft deep into her glistening cunt, the spunk adding to the lubrication and my dick went smoothly in to the depths. I took long leisurely plunges, almost pulling right out between each dive. My hands were on Lorna's breasts, I teased her nipples between my finger and thumbs.Sam, keeled over off Lorna's face, finally spent, to lie flat on her back, her head beside Lorna's. Lorna lifted herself up so I could kiss her wet face and lick off Sam's juices. Beside her Laura came and sat on Sam's face and started working her own clit and Sam's tongue went deep into her vagina. The twins were besides themselves and after a few minutes came together juices expelling from their cunts, groaning and moaning. The feel of Lorna's orgasm on my cock as I was deep inside her and her hot juices flowing made me come again, my sperm leaping deep in the dark velvet tunnel of her vagina.As the heaving subsided, I lay panting on top of Lorna. Laura lifted herself off Sam's face and shaking a bit, came and sat beside Lorna and me, massaging the muscles of my back. Sam too got up, her face glistening wet from Laura's orgasm. She squatted beside me and lifted my face so she could kiss me again, long and deep, the scent of sex all around. I gently moved out of Lorna who gasped as the bulbous head of my cock withdrew.Sam pulled me up, kissing me deeply and desperately all the time and then pushed me back onto the carpet and sat astride my stomach. As she kissed, her hand went behind her and she started playing with my semi-hard cock. Finally she came up for air."Rick," she asked "do you think Dick has enough energy left to fuck me? You see, I've never been fucked and although convent girls know how to mess around in the dorm at night, I have never had a boy. I just loved the taste of your sperm, and I just loved sharing it with Laura, I just loved having Lorna making me come with her tongue. But I could really do with Dick inside me and; for god's sake, a good long almighty Fuck!"Lorna and Laura both burst out laughing and Sam hurled herself at them with a scream! Even though she was small, she wrestled well and soon the three girls were a complete tangle of arms and legs as they writhed together on the floor, Sam shouting "What's so funny about wanting to be fucked!" and the twins laughing louder than ever.I laughed with them, but after a minute I got up and lifted Sam bodily out of the tangle and plonked her on the bed. She lay with her back on the duvet cover and her slim legs open. Dick was getting ready for action again, but first I dropped to my knees and put my head between her legs and started to work on opening her vagina with my tongue. Lorna came and sat beside Sam, and whilst I did my warm-up job, she caressed her and kissed her. Laura came under the bed and took my cock in her mouth, making it swell as she sucked deep upon the shaft. Sam put her hands between Lorna's legs and started to play with her fingers up her cunt as I stuck my tongue deeper into hers.Trying to concentrate on Sam with Laura sucking away was difficult, but as I gently put a finger into Sam's warm slit, I was surprised when it came to a halt instead of sliding in.I stopped puzzled, and drew back. Sam, who had been kissing Lorna, let go of Lorna's mouth and gasped "I'm still a virgin! Be careful, but please, please fuck me! God I've fantasised about a good fuck for years, please!"My cock escaped from Laura's mouth and I stood up and it came to the same height as Sam's vagina as she lay sideways on the bed. I gently rubbed the head of my cock around her widening hole, lubricating it with her juices and Laura's saliva. Then very slowly I nudged my cock towards that inner barrier. The girls all stilled and Sam whispered "Go on, take me." I pushed and felt the hymen give, Sam whimpered. I withdrew and then pushed again, further in this time and the hole widened to take me. After withdrawing and pushing back seven or eight times my cock was fully inside her. Sam's legs were up on my shoulders and there was a tear glistening in her eye. "Fuck me." she whispered. So I started a gentle rhythmic pumping.Lorna whispered to Sam "Grasp his cock with your muscles, the muscles inside you." I felt a tightening. "Grasp and release as he goes in and out." said Laura "It makes it much better!" Sam soon got the idea and we started to pick up speed. Lorna started massaging Sam's small breasts with one hand and rubbing her clit with the other. Laura was still under the bed below my thrusting cock. She started to use her tongue around the edge of Sam's vagina as I went in and out. Her hand came up and started cupping my balls as we fucked. This caused Sam and me to go even faster, Sam crying out with pleasure "Oh fuck me. Oh! Fuck me. Oh Fuck wow, aargh, ah, ah aha Fuck!"The sheer ecstasy of Sam and I as we fucked with Laura and Lorna played and teased with us was more than I can describe. Sam's cunt was hot and tight and her inexperienced muscles pulled me deeper into her, she bucked as Lorna played with her engorged clit. There were bubbles in my head as I felt Laura's tongue lubricating my shaft, as it went in. I stood up straight now and only Sam's shoulders were on the bed and her legs were wrapped around me. I have never felt anything like it, and I'd come twice already!I leant down and pulled Sam off the bed and held her to me my cock deep inside her. She put her arms around my shoulders and kissed me long and deep and we started to fuck again, Sam's ass in the air, her breasts rubbing up and down on my chest and she moved with the rhythm. Lorna and Laura played around below us, putting tongues and fingers into the gap between my cock and that hot, hot cunt.Then it was back on the bed again, the final gasping red misty finish and I fucked Sam as hard as she could wish and we both came in long blinding orgasm. I pulled back and slid to the floor and Sam's legs dropped over the side of the bed, beads of spunk came seeping from her cunt. This was too much for Laura who came to lick away the creamy mess from Sam's neat bush. Lorna, spotting some still oozing from my cock, knelt on the floor and mischievously licked it away. "It's ridiculous, but I guess I'm not going to get a fuck this morning then." She said and gave me a great smile."Maybe a swim in the pool to cool down for a bit might be a good idea." I replied.To be continued, in part 3.By jane700bond for LiteroticaThe Farmer's Twin Daughters: Part 3Samantha's Deflowering.In 8 parts, By jane700bond. Listen to the ► Podcast at ExplicitNovels.Hi, my name is Sam and I have just hi-jacked this story from Rick, who made the mistake of leaving what he had written about me, Lorna and Laura open on the computer in his bedroom.Well those nympho blonde twin cousins of mine are going to make their corrections to history after I've had my go.Firstly, I would like to correct a few facts about myself. Yes, I am about 5'3 and petite, with smallish breasts (32b). People do think I am younger than I am and that makes it difficult sometimes at the pub, or at the cinema. My skin is naturally pale and I still have a few (sexy) freckles on my nose. However, I am really a dark auburn colour rather than brunette and I'm actually nearer 20 than 18. Being a bit short-sighted, I also wear glasses, a nice pair of Dee & Gees. And as for Rick breaking my hymen, I think not. Anyone notice a lack of blood in Rick's story? Boys can be so ignorant.Anyway, we girls are not really annoyed with Rick for what he wrote, in fact reading it was a bit of a turn-on and, oh, um will you just excuse us a few minutes.Phew! OK, concentrate. I do have to admit that Rick was my first boy, (still is my only boy), but I have had sex with a girl before and it was the first of those little adventures where that precious barrier of skin got broken. No hang on, there was a boy there too, ooh! It's not that easy to get things in the right order, so I'll just explain what happened then and then I'll rewrite randy Rick's story about that morning at the farm with the three of us.It was the Easter holiday before my A Level exams, which is what we take to get into university in England, oh, distractions. Anyway, I went to stay with my friend Dora (adorable Dora!) who was a school chum of mine. We both had our birthday on the same day and had had a crazy joint 18th party at my parents' place a few weeks earlier. Maybe our horoscopes made us similar which is why we got on so well.We were very close at the Convent School, thought by our friends to be a bit of an item, but beyond friendly cuddles and girly kisses, I, for one, had never thought about doing anything more. Anyway, Dora lived in Winchester, and we had spent the day looking at the ancient cathedral and doing a bit of shopping.I'll start the story in the evening after supper. We had helped Dora's Mum and Dad clear up; & chatted for a bit. Then we went up to Dora's room to watch TV and mess with each other's hair. Mine is short, but rich, dark and thick and curly; Dora's is a blonde and fine and cut just above her neck. She often put it up with a hair clip, to stop it getting in her eyes.I ought to explain that Dora lives in a big old town house which is tall and narrow. Her parents have their bedroom two floors below hers, and her brother has his room on the floor between. Her bedroom and bathroom are in a sort of attic. Dora said that it was where the servants lived in the olden days, which is why there is a door at the bottom of the staircase going up, to give the family privacy.We had been up there about an hour when we heard the door to the staircase and Dora's brother, Ian; knocked on the bedroom door. He came in with his friend Bob who he introduced to us. It was I suppose about 10 o'clock by then. Ian was a couple of years older than Dora and both the boys smelt as if they had been drinking too much beer. I was not really interested in Ian, who I thought a bit rough. He was nothing like his sister and after a few remarks, I just ignored him.Bob though, couldn't take his eyes off Dora. He sat on the bed and tried his best to be am

Watch the best scene reading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t96yy7b3gI A journey through time when the Jews were threatened by the Muslims and how one young man's life changed when he escaped and helped others smuggle into Israel from Baghdad- based on a true story. https://www.laurasmagicday.com/ Get to know the writers: Laura : It's the true story of how Joseph came of age in Babylon during WWII, when a brutal pogrom of violence against the Jews (the Farhud), forces him to smuggle aboard a riverboat to freedom in Israel––leaving his friends, family, and country behind. It's the story of how a mischievous, fun-loving boy became a man under extraordinary circumstances and not only survived, but thrived. But it's also about how Muslims and Jews lived in peace in the region for over two thousand years until the Farhud. Joseph: It is about sharing the lessons of life. Facing broken dreams to build new ones. How to take failure and use it as a stepping stone to success. How you can learn from disappointment and use it to learn how to improve your life. Facing fate, the uncontrollable circumstances we all find ourselves in, and using resilience to not only survive those circumstances, but to thrive. Last Sunday I spoke at the Holocaust Museum to a room full of people. I was saying that university teaches you about life. When you see this movie you will learn how to live. Not only how to survive, but to thrive. To see all the difficulties and turn to resiliency, tenacity, and courage to overcome the unpredictable difficulties that we face. You can sign up for the 7 day free trial at www.wildsound.ca (available on your streaming services and APPS). There is a DAILY film festival to watch, plus a selection of award winning films on the platform. Then it's only $3.99 per month. Subscribe to the podcast: https://twitter.com/wildsoundpod https://www.instagram.com/wildsoundpod/ https://www.facebook.com/wildsoundpod

In today's episode, I'm speaking to writer and parent educator Eloise Rickman. Eloise's work focuses mainly on challenging adultism, championing children's rights, and helping parents and educators rethink how they see children. In this episode, we touch on how diet culture shows up in gentle parenting spaces and how mainstream ideas of gentle parenting don't always challenge where power comes from and how it's leveraged. We'll also talk about kids' embodied resistance and Elosie's new book, It's Not Fair.Don't forget to leave a review in your podcast player if you enjoy this episode - or let me know what you think in the comments below.Find out more about Eloise's work here.Pre-order Eloise's new book here.Follow her on Instagram here.Follow here on Substack - Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here. Here's the transcript in full:INTRO:Laura: Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast where we talk about appetite, bodies and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter.Today we're talking to . Eloise is a writer ( ) and parent educator. Her work focuses on challenging adultism, championing children's rights, and helping parents and educators rethink how they see children. Today we're going to talk about how diet culture shows up in gentle parenting spaces and how mainstream ideas of gentle parenting don't always challenge where power comes from and how it's leveraged. We'll also talk about kids' embodied resistance and Elosie's new book, It's Not Fair.But first - just a quick reminder that Can I Have Another Snack is entirely reader and listener supported. If you get something from the newsletter or podcast, please consider a paid subscription - it's £5/month or £50/ year which helps cover the cost of the podcast,  gives you access to our weekly subscriber only discussion threads, the monthly Dear Laura column, and the entire CIHAS archive. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to subscribe now. And thank you to everyone who is already a paid subscriber.Alright team, here's this week's conversation with Eloise Rickman. MAIN EPISODE:Laura: Alright Eloise, can you start by telling us a bit about you and your work?Eloise: Yeah, of course. And whenever I do these, I'm always absolutely terrified, that I'm gonna forget something really big , like “I'm a writer” or “I work with parents”. So yeah, I'm a writer and I work with parents. I write books about children and about children's rights.And I've just finished writing my second book, which is on the idea of children's liberation. which looks at all different sorts of topics from parenting to education to children's bodies. And alongside my writing work, I also work with parents running courses on home education and on rights-based parenting and on workshops as well.I'm also – at the same time as doing this – home educating my daughter, who at the time of recording is eight, which also kind of feels like a full time job and just because life is not complicated enough, I'm also doing a Masters in children's rights at the moment, which is brilliant.Laura: Okay, I have no idea how you find the time in the day to do all of those different things, but I am in awe. And you mentioned that you just finished writing your second book, but you didn't say what it's called.Eloise: Sorry, I didn't, you're right! So it's called It's Not Fair. Which is a title we deliberated over for a really long time, but I really like it because it's something which we hear so often from our children's mouths.It's not fair, this isn't fair. So it's called It's Not Fair: Why it's Time for a Grown Up Conversation About How Adults Treat Children. And that really does sum it up. It's really looking at how we treat children in all different aspects of life. And why a lot of that treatment isn't fair and why we need to rethink it as adults who have more power than children.Laura: Yeah, and I mean, that's really what I want us..we're going to explore these ideas a little bit in a second. But yeah, I've had a little sneaky peek of the book so far. And what I read is incredible. And I'm so excited for this book to be in people's hands because – we'll talk about this a bit more as well – but unlike a lot of just, you know, gentle parenting, like, more prescriptive books, I think that just tell you how to parent, what I really appreciate about your work is that you bring in the kind of socio-political lens, which I feel often gets missed out of a lot of these conversations. So, yeah, I'm really excited about your book coming out and we'll pop a pre-order link to it in the show notes so that people can have that little happy surprise delivered to their doorstep. There's nothing better than, just like, a book showing up that you've forgotten…  Eloise: Oh, I love it. Laura: …that you ordered six months ago! Okay. A lot of your work centers on the idea of dismantling adultism. I'm not sure that people will be completely familiar with that term, so for anyone who is just coming across it, can you explain what even is that and where do we see it show up in our kids' lives?Eloise: Absolutely, and I think you're totally right that it's not a term that most of us are familiar with at all, and I think that's a huge problem actually.You know, we are now, I think, generally, as a society, getting better at spotting things like sexism or racism or ableism, and that is really important, you know, being able to name injustice when you see it is the first step to dismantling it, to tackling it. Otherwise, how do you really know what it is that you're dealing with and why it's a problem?But yet, when we think about some of the treatment which children experience at the hands of adults, whether that's the fact that in England, at the time of recording, it's still legal to hit your child, even though we would never dream of women being allowed to be hit by their partners, or the fact that, you know, it's still really normal in so many school settings for children to be publicly humiliated, to be losing their break times and so on.All of these seem to be quite disconnected from one another because we don't have the language to join them up. And I think that's why having a word like adultism is the first step in kind of joining those dots and being able to see that children as a social group are marginalised and discriminated against vis-à-vis adults.And I think that term probably feels quite uncomfortable for a lot of us, especially if our children are relatively privileged. You know, if you have a wealthy white child who is not disabled, the idea that your child is discriminated against or is somehow marginalised might feel really shocking. Like, whoa, what do you mean?You know, our child is so lucky, but again, as we've seen with times, like with racism, we talk about white supremacy. The idea isn't that if you have white privilege, you don't have any other problems. You know, you can still be poor or disabled and still have white privilege. And I think in the same way we can see that adults have it easier in a lot of different aspects of their lives.And that doesn't mean being a child is always terrible. It just means they're discriminated against because they're children. So the idea of adultism is really just a way of referencing this age based discrimination, which children face. And I think it really encapsulates this idea that in so many of our societies, adults are seen as the kind of default position, and they are seen as more competent, more capable, more rational, more sensible than children are. And there's a wonderful academic called Manfred Liebel, who talks about these four conditions of adultism. And one of them is that children are just seen as less capable, less competent, less rational, and that they're seen as sort of unfinished. So there's this idea that you're not really a proper person until you become an adult. And that justifies a lot of adult control.Laura: Yeah. Sorry. I was just going to say, there's like this sense that, okay, well, you don't really know what you're talking about. You don't really have any kind of, like, say in what's going on until you turn 18.And, and it's almost like this idea that, yeah, your life is..it doesn't matter, anything that happens to you before 18. It's kind of like a write off somehow. Yeah. Anyway, that was just what was coming to my mind. And I'm sorry for interrupting you. I'm curious to hear more about these conditions of adultism!Eloise: Yeah, but I think that absolutely is true. And that's a really big part of it or where we don't see children's lives as important or their experience as important. And I think we're getting better now as a society at noticing when things are traumatic or when things are adverse childhood experiences, but often those are described in terms of: this has an impact when they become adults.So they have poorer earning potential or it harms their future intimate relationships, but it's not…so much of it is not focused on children's lives in the here and now, and under adultism, it's very frequent, I think, whether it's in policy documents or whether it's in the language that schools use, or whether it's in parenting manuals, this idea that childhood is this sort of preparation or training ground for when you're a real person, for when you're an adult, and that parenting, education, all of these different things, thus, should be you know, optimising the child's future life without really thinking very much about children's experiences right now. So, and some other examples of adultism as well are, that tied to this, we often think that because parents know best, parents can protect their children from things that we see as harmful. And I think this probably links quite a lot also to diet culture and the way that we see that, you know, oh, I must protect my child from ultra processed food or from sweets because I know best, but actually these things can end up being quite harmful to children because they're not given the opportunity to take risks or make mistakes or to figure out their own body's needs, decide what's best for themselves. And I think there is this real assumption that adults know best and that if a child makes a decision, which is against what adults believe is best, then the child must not be capable of making that decision yet. They must be incompetent. So even if we're saying to a child, okay, you choose. And then the child says, well, I'm going to eat all of my Hallowe'en sweets in one go, or I'm going to eat all of the, you know, chocolates out of my Christmas stocking in one go. And then the adult says, well, actually that shows they can't be trusted. And next time we'll have to, you know, divvy them out or give them more slowly. And I think that sense that children cannot make good decisions if they vary from what we as adults believe are good decisions, also have a wider consequence in that children are really excluded from political decision making.And I think this is twofold, both in terms of the fact that children can't vote, which as you're listening to this, you might think, ‘well, of course children can't vote, you know, why would they be able to vote? They're only children.' But yet, this is exactly the kind of argument which used to be made for women not being able to vote.And actually, over the course of history, we've seen huge changes in which populations were seen to be considered sort of capable and sound of mind and able to take part in the very scary business of voting and putting a cross in a box. And again, there are lots of people now challenging this, but I think just the very fact that we have a whole section of society who we say ‘you don't have a voice' is really important to grapple with.I think there could be an argument made for this if our politicians were genuinely taking children's voices, views, concerns into account. But as we've seen with things like education funding, childcare funding, the complete lack of any sort of meaningful action on the climate crisis, children's priorities and futures aren't being safeguarded by those in power. And we tend to have very short termist political structures. Which again, exacerbates this sort of, you know, serving adult populations, but actually the things that children need, the things that are important to children get completely left out of the conversation.Laura: Yeah. Oh, I mean, I don't even really know where, where to kind of go from there. I think you've just…Eloise: Sorry, it's a lot!Laura: It is, it's a lot. And you summed it up. And I think, like, what I kept thinking about as you were speaking is, I think, there is this, like, notion or fantasy that we're not living in Victorian workhouse era, kind of, you know, we're not putting kids into workhouses anymore.And there's this sort of sense that, like, childhood is held in such high esteem, such high regard, like…But what you're saying is there's a real disconnect, right, between this kind of, like, fantasy of childhood versus the reality of how we're treating our children. Do you know what I mean?Eloise: Absolutely. Yeah, totally. And I think that's exactly right.And I think, again, to a lot of people, it will seem strange to talk about children being discriminated against because we're spending, you know, hundreds of pounds on Christmas presents for the children in our families or because we are seeing that children now have access to all these cool opportunities that we didn't when we were their age. And we tend to think that childhood is generally getting better. And in some ways it is, you know, in terms of things like corporal punishment, we are actually getting better as a society. Fewer children are being smacked. It's becoming less normalised, but there is still this real disconnect between the fact that children are…in some circumstances have better material goods, except we're definitely not seeing that for everyone. And actually, you know, as we know in the UK, one in three children more or less lives in poverty, which is a huge political issue in terms of adultism, actually. And it is a real…it's a political choice rather than just a side effect.And, you know, we might not need to get into it now, but there have been lots and lots of policy decisions over the last decade or so, which have pushed families deeper and deeper into poverty. But even for those of us living in very privileged households, we might see, oh yes, well, my child now has an iPad or my child has this, that or the other.But actually in terms of the things that really matter to children, having a safe, healthy environment, having the freedom to be able to go out and see their friends without being overly controlled, having privacy, having independence. We're not really doing much better on any of those sort of key indicators, really. And that power discrepancy. And I think that power is probably the main word in all of this, that adults still have the say, adults still have a final decision. Adults still have more power in our families…hasn't changed since those times. And I think that's what we're really needing to grapple with now.Laura: And I think that that is shifting a little bit in terms of kind of the explosion of gentle parenting, which I think is a concept that probably most of the listeners are familiar with. But just for anyone who isn't, do you think that you could maybe just, like, give your…because I know there's no, like, one set definition of gentle or respectful parenting, but can you tell us a bit about what that concept means to you?Eloise: Yeah, of course. So I think the way that gentle parenting, in a kind of mainstream definition of books like…well, I'm not going to name a lot, but you know, any kind of gentle parenting book you might walk into Waterstones and pick up off the shelf will tend to be much more child focused than, you know, Gina Ford type parenting books.So it will focus on, you know, how is your child feeling, validating their emotions, listening to them, not making them feel bad for crying or for having strong feelings, for trying to work together with them to fix problems rather than just doling out punishments, you know, not putting children in timeouts, really listening to them, having a very warm, nurturing relationship with children.It doesn't necessarily have to go into attachment parenting, but I think there is a sense in gentle parenting that the real aim is trying to have this loving relationship with your child, where they feel heard, they feel listened to, they feel seen. For me, that feels like such a positive move forward collectively as a society.I know that my mum for example feels that she might have parented in a different way had she had more options around at the time. I'm sure my grandparents would have also parented in a very different way if they had had access to some of these ideas. So I think as a society we're definitely moving in the right way.I think the piece for me that feels still sort of missing from gentle parenting, is a lot of it still doesn't question this fundamental aspect of child-parent relationships, which is that it is a fundamentally unequal power dynamic. So what traditional gentle parenting will do, I don't know if you or anyone listening has heard of this idea of these different sort of parenting styles from someone called Diana Baumrind, who talked about. On the one hand you have the authoritarian parenting. She's very strict, very cold, has very high expectations of children's behaviour. On the other side, she talked about permissive parenting. Which is very warm, but has very low expectations of children. So, you know, you might imagine a kind of warm chaos where the kids are kind of running around doing whatever.Laura: Right. There's no, there are very few boundaries. It's a bit more of a…Eloise: Very few boundaries.Laura: Free for all.Eloise: Free for all. It's chaos. Yeah. Kids are in charge kind of idea. Then she posited for actually the middle ground, which I think is what a lot of gentle parenting writers will refer to, is that in the middle you have what she kind of called authoritative parenting, which is both very warm, seeks to understand the child, seeks to not have too many rules, but yet still has those expectations in terms of behaviour.So, you know, you're going to step in if you see your child drawing on the walls or going to hit their sibling, you know, you're going to have expectations, for example, of how dinner times might be held or how you greet other people. And I think this is where a lot of gentle parenting books sit, in this idea that you have power as a parent, but you use it benevolently to try and do your best for your child.And I have a lot of sympathy for that. You know, I think as parents we're under so much pressure to do well, to do right, especially when we're told from so much developmental psychology, but the impact of these early years on children is so important and it's going to ruin your child's life. But I think for me, what feels like perhaps the next step, and I think we're already starting to see more and more conversations doing this, is being able to step outside of that sort of traditional view that you're either very authoritarian or permissive or you're kind of somewhere in between and remove ourselves from that entirely and say, well, what about the power dynamics?What if parents weren't the ones in charge, but actually we were in partnership with children, making decisions collectively and aiming for respectful relationships just as we would do in our romantic partnerships, in our friendships, in our work relationships of just being humans in the world, trying to figure out how to get along together in as respectful a way as possible.And obviously this is much, much easier said than done. I am absolutely not doing this all the time in my own parenting, let's be really clear. But for me, that feels like the conversation we need to be having more of. And alongside that, it needs to be not just looking at the parent child relationship.Which I think again, a lot of traditional parenting books will do, but really trying to understand that your parenting is impacted by so many things. You know, we live in a capitalist society and the fact that so much of our society is based on getting parents away from their children, separating families out, trying to put children into often very underfunded childcare systems, school systems, making it almost impossible for parents to be relaxed when they're having to work sometimes two, three jobs where they're dealing with poverty, where they're worried about the climate crisis, you know, these things don't happen in a vacuum. And I think it is completely unrealistic to be talking about having this beautiful, you know, egalitarian, no power differentiation relationship with our children, when we're not also trying to dismantle the many, many, many structural issues which are keeping us stressed and exhausted and, you know, kind of triggered by our children as well.Laura: Yeah. As I was preparing to speak to you, I was thinking about a couple of New York Times articles that came out, I think it was last year, that really pushed back on gentle parenting.And then I also saw something in Romper yesterday that was like, you know, here are 10 reasons why gentle parenting doesn't work for my family. And to me, I have a lot of, like, sympathy for parents who are trying out these tools, these ideas, these suggestions, which, you know, may or may not be helpful for them. But, you know, like maybe they buy into the idea sort of cognitively and emotionally, but then when they, when they put it into practice, like it all kind of falls apart for them. And it seems like with those NYT articles and, and with the Romper piece, it really was just missing the lens of like all the systemic and social stuff that we're kind of dealing with that makes it so much more difficult to have a kind of equal distribution of power in those relationships and and not, not sort of a certain power over but but you know giving power to our children to have some autonomy to have some say in their their day and over their bodies and what they want to do it all just feels so impossible when we have yeah like capitalism breathing down our neck, colonialism breathing down our neck, racism, ableism, anti-fat bias, like all of these systems that are, are making our lives so much more difficult.They have an impact on gentle parenting or our ability to parent, but it's not, it's not the, the gentle parenting in and of itself. That's the problem, right? It's all the other shit that we're dealing with.Eloise: Absolutely. Yeah. And like you say, I think there is a fundamental sometimes misread of gentle parenting, but it's just another tool. You know, you do this because you want your child to be more empathetic to their peers, or because you want them to learn more moderation in the long run, or because you want them to be able to self regulate their emotions. And some children absolutely will do all of those things. So there's lots of research showing that actually, if you want children who do tend to have more pro social behaviors, as they're called, that being very controlling, being authoritarian is not the way to do that. And the more we punish children, the more there are lots of different outcomes, all of which are pretty negative. But I think that still misses this wider picture that fundamentally we don't, for example, decide to not punish our daughter or not shout at her or not put her in timeout because we think that's the best way to create a good, happy person. Laura: Compliant child. Eloise: Yeah, we do it because it feels really fucking unfair. Like, I wouldn't want it if my husband was like, ‘Hey, I don't like the way you just spoke to me. So I'm going to remove your debit card for two days'. You know, that would be abuse. We would call that abuse.He, you know, I wouldn't like it if one of my friends was like, ‘Oh, you replied to my text a bit late'. Or like, ‘I didn't like that you didn't, you know, you, you missed something out. So I'm just going to ghost you for a while.' You know, that's not how we have relationships with people we care about, but yet we have completely normalised this way of treating children.And I think that, yeah, there's a missing piece, which so many of those big New York Times and so on articles seem to miss is that this is not about having another method. This is just about fundamentally treating children like fellow human beings in a respectful way.Laura: Yeah, you're so right, that oftentimes we're kind of weaponising gentle parenting as a, like as a ‘nice' way, inverted commas, a ‘kind' way, caring way to try and control and manipulate our children. Eloise: Yes, totally. Laura:  Like, again, I get that. I get why, like, you know, having some tools in your toolkit so that your kid will put their fucking socks on or brush their teeth in the morning so you can get out the door, like why that's helpful. And yeah, if we're doing it solely for the purposes of compliance, that in and of itself can become problematic because it's another way that you're kind of leveraging power, I think.It's a complicated, kind of topic to discuss. Sorry, I'm having like a few different thoughts of where to go! I think maybe I'll stick with gentle parenting just because we've kind of been on that topic. And I was saying to you off mic that I have a feeling that gentle parenting has a diet culture problem.And what sort of spurred this was a reel that I saw, I think just before Hallowe'en. So we're recording this at the beginning of November. We've just had Hallowe'en a couple of weeks ago and there was a kind of quite well known, like, I guess they're gentle parenting influencer coach? I don't know what you would, you would call them.And they basically were talking about how they only let their kid have, I think it was like a cake pop or something on special occasions, which turned out to be like three times a year. And I was like, I was just waiting for people to send me this reel and be like, what, what do you think of this? And the first person to send it to me was Molly Forbes from Body Happy Org. And she was like, gentle parenting has a diet culture problem. And I wanted to get your take on that. Is this something you've seen in, not necessarily gentle parenting, I'm sort of picking on that, but like in children's liberation spaces where there's kind of like a, we want to change the power structures so much. But when it comes to food, and policing bodies, there seems to be like a bit of a disconnect there.Eloise: So I think there are two different strands to this. And I think maybe first we can talk about the kind of more, I guess, like mainstream Instagram version of sort of gentle parenting, which I think absolutely does have a diet culture problem. And then maybe we can talk a bit about this idea of children's liberation, which I think to me feels much less…you know, a lot of the people I know who are talking about children's liberation are also talking about fat liberation, around black liberation, around disability liberation.Laura: Right. They have that intersectional lens on. Yeah. And I think that's a really important distinction. So I'm glad, I'm glad that you made that. Cause like my next question is, was going to be, could you tell us more about, you know, children's liberation. So yeah, I'm really glad that you kind of separated out those two strands.So maybe start with the, like, Instagram…which I can see, just like, I can see the despair in your face. I think it seems like how I feel a lot about, like, a lot of kids feeding stuff online is probably how you feel about a lot of parenting stuff.Eloise: Yeah. Again, I think so much of it means well, but I think there is quite a big intersection between sort of like gentle parenting influencers on the one hand and wellness culture. And I think that often goes really hand in hand. So this idea of kind of like crunchy parenting, you see it a lot as well in homeschool spaces. So obviously I home educate my daughter. I follow home ed accounts. I often get shown stuff in my, like, what is it, like, ‘Explore' section of my Instagram. And I think depending on where you hang out online, there is a really strong mix of, you know, I home educate my children and I gentle parent, and I also use essential oils. And I also don't ever buy processed food and all of these things coming together in a very aesthetically beautiful and pleasing package, which doesn't…  Laura: Ballerina Farm effect. Eloise: Totally. Yeah. I'd love to know if Ballerina Farm has a, like a secret snack cupboard with her kids. It's just like a munching on dandelions.Laura: Sourdough and yeah, dandelion butter.Eloise: Yeah, absolutely. And again, I think that is this sense from people who maybe were raised, you know, lots of us were raised in the eighties, the eighties, especially in the UK, didn't have great culinary vibes. Sure, like I get that we want to do better.Laura: I grew up in Scotland, we had battered Mars bars. I don't know what you're talking about.Eloise: That sounds great, sign me up. Yeah, I think that sometimes we can maybe go too far or not go far enough. So a great example of this for me feels like the division of responsibility approach to family meals, which I think for so many people feels like, yes, this is kind of different to how I was raised, you know, this isn't about children finishing their plates or being reserved the same meal until they finished it.You know, you really do hear some horror stories when it comes to people and their relationships with food, which started, as so many things do, when they were children. Yeah. And so I totally get that there is this searching for something better. And I think for some people, this idea of division of responsibility, which I'm sure people will be familiar with as they're listening to your podcast, but this idea that I choose what to serve and I choose when to serve it, but you choose what to eat. It looks nice on the surface, but again, it doesn't have any of that interrogation of a power again, like I'm going to sound like a broken record, but imagine if my husband was like, ‘right, I've planned out all of our meals for the week, all of the snacks, all of our meal times, but like you can choose. It's up to you, babe. You know, if you want it, you can have it. If not, have shit.' And I feel like, again, we wouldn't do this to people who were not children. You know, we might do it to people at institutions, but again, is that really what we want to be going for? And I think a lot of this is done with real love. You know, we want our children to be healthy. We want our children to be happy. We're constantly told in every aspect of our lives, if you have a fat child, they will be miserable and unhappy and unhealthy. And that's the worst possible thing you can do as a parent. And I think that unless you have really engaged with anti-diet culture, fat liberation culture, I can see the appeal of this quite like wellness, you know, Deliciously Ella style approach to feeding children, which I think goes really hand in hand with this idea of wooden toys and gentle parenting and kind of slightly alternative living, but which is packaged up in a very kind of consumerist way. Laura: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I've talked before about not being a division of responsibility purist and kind of going back to what you were talking about before about authoritarian versus permissive, is that right? And then, yeah, I always get confused, authoritative is kind of in this, in the middle.  And I think a lot of people do position the division of responsibility as being that middle ground. And in a lot of ways, I think, especially when kids are really little, it can be like a really helpful way to kind of parse out and, and help kids kind of understand like hunger and fullness cues, for example, and things like that. But yeah, like as kids get older, they, like, want to have a bit more autonomy over what they're eating. They want to have some decision making power. Why, why wouldn't they, right? Like you say, we make decisions about what we're eating all the time. And if somebody tried to stop us from doing that, we would like, yeah, throw a conniptions. So yeah, I think this is where the, the responsive feeding piece comes in, where it can be really helpful, is that it can be containing for a child to have sort of set meal times, you know, to know like, okay, I will always provide breakfast. I will always provide lunch. I will always provide dinner and, you know, snacks are maybe sort of like somewhere in the middle there. Yeah. I think having that, like a bit of structure can. In the same way that boundaries can be helpful, that that can be helpful. But yeah, if we are then, especially as kids get older and start socialising with people outside of our families and you know, are going to like, you know, outside of primary school, going into secondary school and have more, you know, have their own money to buy things, for example, if we are then still trying to like micromanage every single aspect of what they're eating. Then, yeah, that's really, really unhelpful. And I guess I never really thought of it so much as through the sort of like lens of power dynamics, but I think that that's a really important piece that you're, you're bringing to that conversation. What do you see in terms of, like, in those same spaces around like conversations about sweets and restriction and that kind of thing? I'd love to hear, yeah, what you see around that.Eloise: Yeah, I mean, you can probably imagine, I think. And again, I think there is a real diversity. So I'm kind of caricaturing a bit here. And I think it's also important to say that, like, with all of these conversations…you know, we were just talking about division of responsibility.I think that is quite a big gulf between, say, a wealthy influencer who is talking about this stuff and someone who genuinely has no choice about just serving three meals a day because they've just been to a food bank. So I think all of these questions around, like, giving children choice and being able to be very child led still do come with quite a privileged lens.I have to say again, you know, in terms of sweets and things, I have seen people being like, here's how to make your own fruit flavoured gummies and switch these out instead. And, you know, look, I have no problem with any of this. I enjoy cooking. So that's something…like, I've never made my own gummies, but I would absolutely, you know, I sometimes make our own cakes or biscuits or bread.It's fun. It's part of, like, eating nice food. I enjoy doing it. But I think this idea that to be a kind of good parent, you have to restrict…often the discourse is around, like, refined sugars…seed oil. That's a new thing that I haven't really engaged with. Laura: Don't, don't, don't.Eloise: E numbers, red dye, all of this stuff. And again, look, I get it. I get that you want to give your child a healthy diet. And, you know, I think I would be hypocritical…like we also try and give our daughter a pretty balanced diet where she has access to lots of vegetables and fruits alongside things typically kind of coded as unhealthy, like chocolate or crisps. But for me, it just feels like it makes such a big issue out of these foods.And then…you know, I say this as someone who, as a child, had quite restricted food. So I had really bad eczema as a young child, and my parents were also on a very low income, and so we didn't just have a snack drawer with loads of like pre-packaged snacks, you know, that wouldn't have been in my parents budget, and also with terrible eczema, my mum… She was quite a young parent.She, you know, she didn't know what to do with it. And she went to lots of doctors. They couldn't help. We tried all sorts of different things. And one of the things she tried was cutting out refined sugar, for example, because people had told her this might help. So for a lot of different reasons, I had quite, like, a restricted upbringing in terms of, again, things typically coded as like ‘junk food'. And I really saw the impact that that had on me as I grew older and had access to my own money or had access to, you know, food choices at school. And I remember being absolutely mystified going to friends' houses that they could have cupboards with, like, chocolate and crisps in and not just want to sit and eat the whole thing because like, ‘Oh my God, you have chocolate and crisps. Why wouldn't you want to eat the whole thing?' And I think for me that has served as quite a powerful reminder of so many of the brilliant conversations I see, like the ones you have had around not overly restricting certain types of food. And I've really seen it in action with my daughter as well, where we're pretty chill about what she wants to eat.It's her body, you know, we might have some conversations if she was wanting to eat doughnuts for every meal. What has been really fascinating is just seeing that because this stuff has never been separated out from other foods. She isn't hugely fussed. And again, you know, sometimes she is. Hallowe'en, it's really exciting to have access to all these new different chocolates.Laura: Totally. The goal is not to take the pleasure out of food like that, right? Like, I think that's sometimes what parents…the interpretation of sort of the message that I'm trying to communicate and other people in this space are trying to communicate is that we want to, like, burn kids out on sweets so that they never eat them again.That's not it. Like, food is joyful and pleasurable and like, that's, you know, especially in the context of kids not having any, like, any autonomy or any power over anything. Like, can we just throw them a fucking bone and give them some chocolate, right? I really appreciate what you were saying Eloise about, well, there were just a couple of things that I think, are really important to highlight, you know, in these conversations that a lot of people don't have the choice, right, to offer their kids a more liberal access to sweets and chocolates and crisps and things. And, and the restriction is born out of poverty and deprivation rather than what I think we see in a lot of sort of more privileged well to do spaces where, you know, people may have, can afford plenty of, I don't know, Oreos, but they're not providing their kids access to them. And yeah, I think also the piece around having complex medical needs where you might have no choice, even if there's an allergy or something where it's also really difficult to provide kids the things that you would like to provide them all of the time.So it's not a straightforward conversation and I'm glad that you kind of brought in that complexity. Something else that you mentioned was, you know, if you separate out the kind of like Instagram aesthetic approach to gentle parenting versus kind of more of a radical approach to parenting that is rooted in children's liberation. Can you tell me more about that and yeah, how, how things feel different in that space?Eloise: Definitely. So a very potted history is that people started talking about children's liberation with that language in the 1970s with writers like John Holt, who some people will be familiar with. He writes a lot about alternative education…wrote. And people like A.S. Neill, who founded the Summerhill School, which again is like a big radical school in the UK. But the children's liberation of the time – as many of the writing in the 70s was – was very radical, so it was sort of based on this idea that children should be given the exact same rights as adults, even when it came to things like sexual relationships or information in terms of, you know, children should be allowed to watch whatever movies they wanted to.I think some of these ideas are still absolutely worth exploring and engaging with today, but obviously some of them will be very radical. And I think what he missed…this was before the UN declaration on the rights of a child. And I think what that did is for the first time brought together this idea that children have lots of different rights. They have rights to be protected as well, as well as being able to participate fully in society and to be provided with basic levels of, you know, healthcare and decent quality of living and so on. And I think children's liberation now has to be able to grapple with these things. So the idea that yes, children…we should be fundamentally trying to rethink these power differences, but they do need to be also rooted in the understanding that children's needs are a bit different from adults and that we can still assume that children are competent and still listen to children's voices and involve them in every aspect of society without having to go as far as absolute like legal equality. So we can still give them equality in their rights and equality and just dignity in how they're treated. So for me, this is what Children's Liberation is really trying to do. It's this idea that it's a way to sort of combat adultism that we talked about earlier and really trying to see children as complete people who are able to have a say in every aspect of their lives and where they're really trusted. But that goes alongside having adults around who are also willing to provide support and care too. And I think that then when you start looking at things like food from this perspective, you really see it as just a wider aspect of children's bodily autonomy of being able to choose what happens to their bodies and for children to be able to learn and make mistakes. And yes, have it within these really loving, supportive relationships, either with parents or with other people where, you know, if your child is routinely eating so much chocolate that they're making themselves sick. Then of course, you know, I'm not saying, well, you just ignore it and you think, well, this is a great learning experience. Although it might be if they did it once, you know, this is about sitting down and having a conversation just like we would do with any other thing. And saying, how are you feeling? This is what I'm noticing. Do you want to talk about different strategies? You know, we can also have these just really being in relationship with our children and trying to figure these things out as a team. I think it's fine to have conversations with children around, okay, we don't buy this food because X, Y, Z, or as a family we prioritise X, Y, Z. Does that feel cool with you? You know, is this working for you? It's not about making sure that…you know, sometimes I see the opposite position as well. Like, you know, mothers are already so stressed. Do you expect us to be short order chefs? Of course not. But it can be as much as checking in when you're doing the grocery shop and just being like, ‘Hey, are there any meals you especially want to eat over the coming week? Is there anything, this was what I was thinking, is there anything here you really don't like the sound of?'And you know, sometimes I cook stuff that my daughter doesn't like and that's fine. But I just have the assumption then that she can eat something else and I'm not going to be cross at her for doing that. Again, just as I would with my partner, I'd be like…I know the kind of foods he likes. I will sometimes prioritise those and I'll sometimes prioritise the stuff that I like. You know, it's just about being in relationship together. But I think we are getting better at highlighting where children are able to consent, for example. And I think that food is such an important part of that. And it's also such an important part of children's sort of embodied resistance when they feel that they don't have enough power.You know, we tend to see a child pushing their plate away and being like, I don't like it. I don't want it, as bad behaviour or being overtired and maybe they are overtired, but also maybe they're really fed up of having their meals controlled all the time, and that's something we should at least be exploring.Laura: Yeah, I love that in your book you have a chapter on, I forget what the title is, but it's sort of the intersection of children's liberation and body liberation. What's the title of the chapter?Eloise: It's called Body PoliticsLaura: Body Politics. There you go. And I love the way that you talk about embodied resistance and how children literally will protest with their bodies, like things that don't feel good, that things that don't feel uncomfortable.And I think like you say, so often that's written off as they're tired or they're hungry or, or something like that. But oftentimes they're like really giving us a clue as to how they're feeling. ‘No, I don't want more food, like, forced into my body. No, I don't want to eat that particular thing. I don't want to… whatever it is. Like I'm fed up. I'm feeling like I don't have any agency or autonomy in any of these situations.' And the only way that I can exert that is through, like, stiffening my body and going, like turning it into a plank so that you can't get me in the bath or whatever it is. I really love that section in that chapter where you talk about that.Is there anything else that you wanted to say? Because again, like the intersection of children's liberation and body liberation or body politics is like, it's so much more than just food, right? That's kind of my, like, bias, but you talk about a lot of other intersections. in the book, and I'm wondering if there's anything else that you wanted to say, anything that feels really pertinent right now.Eloise: Yeah, I mean, I think we're getting really good as women at noticing how things to do with our bodies are actually deeply political, whether that's diet culture, whether that's the way that we're marketed anti-ageing products too, whether that's abortion rights. There are so many different aspects to this, but we tend to see that these are political and that they can be engaged with in these political ways.But again, I think we miss the nuance of this when we're talking about children's bodies, whereas actually even from the tiniest age, the way that we manage, measure, control, discipline children's bodies are all so deeply political and are all tied into all of these different ideas. And I think what we really see with diet culture is it becomes yet another thing that adults do to children from a young age and then children inevitably will often learn to do this to themselves and we see this in other things too, you know, and not all of it is bad. For example, many of us will teach our children table manners because we know that eventually it will help them later on in life because, I don't know, people will treat them better because they'll see that oh, my child is not speaking with the mouth full or whatever.And that's part of that is just the social norms of whatever society you live in. And as we can see, table manners look radically different across the world. But sometimes, you know, and we can see, I think there are really strong parallels with diet culture and with the way that we treat neurodivergent children in terms of kind of masking.And, you know, when you talk to lots of autistic adults or adults who are neurodivergent in other ways. They talk about how as children, they really had to learn to mask. And so much of that would have been adult led, you know, telling your child, don't wriggle, don't do that. Don't make that noise or your teachers at school…don't do that.And then as adults, they've kind of internalised those things. And they don't do it and they mask so much and then, you know, so many autistic adults now will talk about this process of unmasking and de-masking and learning how to sit in yourself in a way that to me feels very much in parallel with people who as adults come to this idea of being anti-diet culture, of fat liberation, of trying to slowly unlearn these habits of how we look at our bodies and how we feed ourselves and so on.And I mean, you can see in other aspects too, but to me, they feel, like, so strongly linked. And once we start recognising this, you know, so much of it is about how – and you've written beautifully about this in the past – how as children, we are so embodied, you know, we make sense of the world through our bodies.We often…most children, unless children are very unwell, will find joy in their bodies. They'll move their bodies, they'll make noises, they'll explore things. And gradually as they get older, and sometimes from a really quite heartbreakingly young age, they will learn to start being critical around their bodies, judging their bodies, comparing their bodies to other people.And I think that, again, if we are thinking about this in terms of adultism and how we can start to dismantle it, I think thinking about this lens of what does society expect of children? In my book, I use the term, we have this sort of normative view of children or what a ‘normal' child should be, whether that's in terms of our physical development, what their body looks like, their emotional development, their intellectual development, and at every stage of children's lives, starting before children are even born, you know, we're ranking them, we're plotting their centiles.Laura: Fundal height! Yeah. Eloise: Yeah, absolutely. And we're figuring out, you know, what “abnormalities” our children might have, you know, I've put that in scare quotes. And as parents. Or educators, if you've got teachers listening, we're so used to now viewing children through this deficit lens of, ‘oh, you're too fat. You're too noisy. You're not smart enough'. Rather than just seeing children as these glorious individuals who all have differences and who all bring different stuff to the table. Laura: Yeah, I love that. And I really, really love the parallels that you drew between unmasking and kind of unlearning a lot of the things that we have internalised around diet-culture, around policing our bodies. I'd never made that connection in quite that way before. And I think it's, it's really powerful. And particularly when you think about it through the lens of adultism and, and how so much of, so much masking is learned because of adults expectations and the power that adults hold over children. Likewise, you know, so much of the healing from diet culture involves unlearning the messages that we internalise from our, you know – and again, well meaning most of the time – caregivers that in a lot of ways we're probably trying to keep us safe, but in a sort of misplaced kind of way. So yeah, I appreciate that and I love that final sentiment that you had there around just embracing the differences that children have and, and the unique qualities that they bring and, and sort of…yeah, just kind of going back to what we talked about earlier, just really like having an appreciation for who they are right now, even if they're not adults, but the things that they have to bring to the table and that, that they have to offer, like in the here and now rather than waiting until they like ripen and mature or whatever. They're kind of bad analogies people use. I really appreciate this conversation. Thank you so much Eloise. Before I let you go though I would like for you to share your snack. So at the end of every episode my guest and I share something that they've been snacking on can be anything, a literal snack, a book, a podcast, a TV show, something you're wearing, whatever.What do you have for us today?Eloise: So I've got a great book, which fits actually really nicely and kind of accidentally with the theme of this conversation today, which is called Trust Kids. And it's edited by someone called Carla Joy Bergman. And it is this wonderful collection of, she's got some essays in there, interviews. Some of the interviews are between parents and their children. They've also got young people writing some of the essays. There's poetry in there, so it's kind of something for everyone and it deals with lots of different themes, including lots of themes around bodies as well. And it is great. And because of its format, you know, no piece is more than I would say four or five pages, so it is perfect to snack on. And especially as a parent or caregiver, you know how it is. Your kid is engaged in something, so you grab a book for two minutes and it's perfect to read while the kettle is boiling, whatever else you've got going on. And it is brilliant. So I can really recommend it.Laura: Oh, I've heard of that book. It's been kind of on my, like, to read list, but I haven't got around to it yet. So thank you for the little nudge there. I'll link to it in the show notes so other people can check it out. And I really, I've been struggling to read lately. So the thought of, like, dipping in and out of something is really appealing.Okay. So my snack is, well, today is actually my husband's birthday. So I guess my snack is birthdays in general. We've got our birthday tree up, which I've talked about before. It's a big bright pink Christmas tree, basically that we decorate with like happy birthday lights. There's balloons everywhere. And this morning we had a delivery from Flavourtown.Do you know Flavourtown Bakery? Yeah, Eloise knows. So we've got chocolate sprinkle cupcakes. They look amazing. I'm very excited about them. And we're going out for dinner tonight as well. So like, yeah, just the whole like birthdays, but specifically Flavourtown cake. If you haven't had it, they do like vegan options. They do gluten free options and just like regular. And they're like American style, like loads of frosting. You can get, like, rainbow cakes. You can get ones with Biscoff. Like if you like a really saccharine, sweet, indulgent cake, then these are the ones for you. All right, Eloise, before I let you go, could you let everyone know where they can find out more about you and remember to say the name of your book one more time, uh, so that people can pre order.Eloise: So yes, my book, It's Not Fair: Why it's Time to Have a Grown Up Conversation About How Adults Treat Children. You can pre order it. It's out in June. It's very exciting. I can't wait for you all to read it. And then I'm also on Instagram @mightymother_. And I also have a Substack called Small Places, which is probably the best place to kind of find out more broadly about my work and find links to ongoing things as well. So yeah, those are the best places.Laura: We will link to all of those in the show notes so that people can find you. I really appreciate this conversation. Thanks so much for coming on. Eloise: Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a joy.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI this week: What Are You Eating Right Now?* How are you flipping gender scripts for your kids?* Nourishing Full Bodied Awareness with Hillary McBride* Let's Talk About Snacks, Baby This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Laura Nolan, Principal Software Engineer at Stanza, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to offer insights on how to use SRE to avoid disastrous and lengthy production delays. Laura gives a rich history of her work with SREcon, why her approach to SRE is about first identifying the biggest fire instead of toiling with day-to-day issues, and why the lack of transparency in systems today actually hurts new engineers entering the space. Plus, Laura explains to Corey why she dedicates time to work against companies like Google who are building systems to help the government (inefficiently) select targets during wars and conflicts.About LauraLaura Nolan is a software engineer and SRE. She has contributed to several books on SRE, such as the Site Reliability Engineering book, Seeking SRE, and 97 Things Every SRE Should Know. Laura is a Principal Engineer at Stanza, where she is building software to help humans understand and control their production systems. Laura also serves as a member of the USENIX Association board of directors. In her copious spare time after that, she volunteers for the Campaign to Stop Killer Robots, and is half-way through the MSc in Human Factors and Systems Safety at Lund University. She lives in rural Ireland in a small village full of medieval ruins.Links Referenced: Company Website: https://www.stanza.systems/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/lauralifts LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-nolan-bb7429/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is someone that I have been low-key annoying to come onto this show for years, and finally, I have managed to wear her down. Lauren Nolan is a Principal Software Engineer over at Stanza. At least that's what you're up to today, last I've heard. Is that right?Laura: That is correct. I'm working at Stanza, and I don't want to go on and on about my startup, but I'm working with Niall Murphy and Joseph Bironas and Matthew Girard and a bunch of other people who more recently joined us. We are trying to build a load management SaaS service. So, we're interested in service observability out of the box, knowing if your critical user journeys are good or bad out of the box, being able to prioritize your incoming requests by what's most critical in terms of visibility to your customers. So, an emerging space. Not in the Gartner Group Magic Circle yet, but I'm sure at some point [laugh].Corey: It is surreal to me to hear you talk about your day job because for, it feels like, the better part of a decade now, “Laura, Laura… oh, you mean USENIX Laura?” Because you are on the USENIX board of directors, and in my mind, that is what is always short-handed to what you do. It's, “Oh, right. I guess that isn't your actual full-time job.” It's weird. It's almost like seeing your teacher outside of the elementary school. You just figure that they fold themselves up in the closet there when you're not paying attention. I don't know what you do when SREcon is not in process. I assume you just sit there and wait for the next one, right?Laura: Well, no. We've run four of them in the last year, so there hasn't been very much waiting. I'm afraid. Everything got a little bit smooshed up together during the pandemic, so we've had a lot of events coming quite close together. But no, I do have a full-time day job. But the work I do with USENIX is just as a volunteer. So, I'm on the board of directors, as you say, and I'm on the steering committee for all of the global SREcon events, and typically is often served by the program committee as well. And I'm sort of there, annoying the chairs to, “Hey, do your thing on time,” very much like an elementary school teacher, as you say.Corey: I've been a big fan of USENIX for a while. One of the best interview processes I ever saw was closely aligned with evaluating candidates along with USENIX SAGE levels to figure out what level of seniority are they in different areas. And it was always viewed through the lens of in what types of consulting engagements will the candidate shine within, not the idea of, “Oh, are you good or are you crap? And spoiler, if I'm asking the question, I'm of course defaulting myself to goading you to crap.” Like the terrible bespoke artisanal job interview process that so many companies do. I love how this company had built this out, and I asked them about it, and, “Oh, yeah, it comes—that dates back to the USENIX SAGE things.” That was one of my first encounters with what USENIX actually did. And the more I learned, the more I liked. How long have you been involved with the group?Laura: A relatively short period of time. I think I first got involved with USENIX in around 2015, going to [Lisa 00:03:29] and then going on to SREcon. And it was all by accident, of course. I fell onto the SREcon program committee somehow because I was around. And then because I was still around and doing stuff, I got eventually—you know, got co-opted into chairing and onto the steering committee and so forth.And you know, it's like everything volunteer. I mean, people who stick around and do stuff tend to be kept around. But USENIX is quite important to me. We have an open access policy, which is something that I would like to see a whole lot more of, you know, we put everything right out there for free as soon as it is ready. And we are constantly plagued by people saying, “Hey, where's my SREcon video? The conference was like two weeks ago.” And we're like, “No, no, we're still processing the videos. We'll be there; they'll be there.”We've had people, like, literally offer to pay extra money to get the videos sooner, but [laugh] we're, like, we are open access. We are not keeping the videos away from you. We just aren't ready yet. So, I love the open access policy and I think what I like about it more than anything else is the fact that it's… we are staunchly non-vendor. We're non-technology specific and non-vendor.So, it's not, like, say, AWS re:Invent for example or any of the big cloud vendor conferences. You know, we are picking vendor-neutral content by quality. And as well, as anyone who's ever sponsored SREcon or any of the other events will also tell you that that does not get you a talk in the conference program. So, the content selection is completely independent, and in fact, we have a complete Chinese wall between the sponsorship organization and the content organization. So, I mean, I really like how we've done that.I think, as well, it's for a long time been one of the family of conferences that our organizations have conferences that has had the best diversity. Not perfect, but certainly better than it was, although very, very unfortunately, I see conference diversity everywhere going down after the pandemic, which is—particularly gender diversity—which is a real shame.Corey: I've been a fan of the SREcon conferences for a while before someone—presumably you; I'm not sure—screwed up before the pandemic and apparently thought they were talking about someone else, and I was invited to give a keynote at SREcon in EMEA that I co-presented with John Looney. Which was fun because he and I met in person for the first time three hours beforehand, beat together our talk, then showed up an hour beforehand, found there will be no confidence monitor, went away for the next 45 minutes and basically loaded it all into short term cash and gave a talk that we could not repeat if we had to for a million dollars, just because it was so… you're throwing the ball to your partner on stage and really hoping they're going to be able to catch it. And it worked out. It was an anger subtext translator skit for a bit, which was fun. All the things that your manager says but actually means, you know, the fun sort of approach. It was zany, ideally had some useful takeaways to it.But I loved the conference. That was one of the only SREcons that I found myself not surprised to discover was coming to town the next week because for whatever reason, there's presumably a mailing list that I'm not on somewhere where I get blindsided by, “Oh, yeah, hey, didn't you know SREcon is coming up?” There's probably a notice somewhere that I really should be paying attention to, but on the plus side, I get to be delightfully surprised every time.Laura: Indeed. And hopefully, you'll be delightfully surprised in March 2024. I believe it's the 18th to the 20th, when SREcon will be coming to town in San Francisco, where you live.Corey: So historically, in addition to, you know, the work with USENIX, which is, again, not your primary occupation most days, you spent over five years at Google, which of course means that you have strong opinions on SRE. I know that that is a bit dated, where the gag was always, it's only called SRE if it comes from the Mountain View region of California, otherwise it's just sparkling DevOps. But for the initial take of a lot of the SRE stuff was, “Here's how to work at Google.” It has progressed significantly beyond that to the point where companies who have SRE groups are no longer perceived incorrectly as, “Oh, we just want to be like Google,” or, “We hired a bunch of former Google people.”But you clearly have opinions to this. You've contributed to multiple books on SRE, you have spoken on it at length. You have enabled others to speak on it at length, which in many ways, is by far the better contribution. You can only go so far scaling yourself, but scaling other people, that has a much better multiplier on it, which feels almost like something an SRE might observe.Laura: It is indeed something an SRE might observe. And also, you know, good catch because I really felt you were implying there that you didn't like my book contributions. Oh, the shock.Corey: No. And to be clear, I meant [unintelligible 00:08:13], strictly to speaking.Laura: [laugh].Corey: Books are also a great one-to-many multiplier because it turns out, you can only shove so many people into a conference hall, but books have this ability to just carry your words beyond the room that you're in a way that video just doesn't seem to.Laura: Ah, but open access video that was published on YouTube, like, six weeks ahead [laugh]. That scales.Corey: I wish. People say they want to write a book and I think they're all lying. I think they want to have written the book. That's my philosophy on it. I do not understand people who've written a book. Like, “So, what are you going to do now?” “I'm going to write another book.” “Okay.” I'm going to smile, not take my eyes off you for a second and back away slowly because I do not understand your philosophy on that. But you've worked on multiple books with people.Laura: I actually enjoy writing. I enjoy the process of it because I always learn something when I write. In fact, I learn a lot of things when I write, and I enjoy that crafting. I will say I do not enjoy having written things because for me, any achievement once I have achieved it is completely dead. I will never think of it again, and I will think only of my excessively lengthy-to do list, so I clearly have problems here. But nevertheless. It's exactly the same with programming projects, by the way. But back to SRE we were talking about SRE. SRE is 20 now. SRE can almost drink alcohol in the US, and that is crazy.Corey: So, 2003 was the founding of it, then.Laura: Yes.Corey: Yay, I can do simple arithmetic in my head, still. I wondered how far my math skills had atrophied.Laura: Yes. Good job. Yes, apparently invented in roughly 2003. So, the—I mean, from what I understand Google's publishing of the, “20 years of SRE at Google,” they have, in the absence of an actual definite start date, they've simply picked. Ben Treynor's start date at Google as the start date of SRE.But nevertheless, [unintelligible 00:09:58] about 20 years old. So, is it all grown up? I mean, I think it's become heavily commodified. My feeling about SRE is that it's always been this—I mean, you said it earlier, like, it's about, you know, how do I scale things? How do I optimize my systems? How do I intervene in systems to solve problems to make them better, to see where we're going to be in pain and six months, and work to prevent that?That's kind of SRE work to me is, figure out where the problems are, figure out good ways to intervene and to improve. But there's a lot of SRE as bureaucracy around at the moment where people are like, “Well, we're an SRE team, so you know, you will have your SLO Golden Signals, and you will have your Production Readiness Checklists, which will be the things that we say, no matter how different your system is from what we designed this checklist for, and that's it. We're doing SRE now. It's great.” So, I think we miss a lot there.My personal way of doing SRE is very much more about thinking, not so much about the day-to-day SLO [excursion-type 00:10:56] things because—not that they're not important; they are important, but they will always be there. I always tend to spend more time thinking about how do we avoid the risk of, you know, a giant production fire that will take you down for days, or God forbid, more than days, you know? The sort of, big Roblox fire or the time that Meta nearly took down the internet in late-2021, that kind of thing. So, I think that modern SRE misses quite a lot of that. It's a little bit like… so when BP, when they had the Deepwater Horizon disaster on that very same day, they received an award for minimizing occupational safety risks in their environment. So, you know, [unintelligible 00:11:41] things like people tripping and—Corey: Must have been fun the next day. “Yeah, we're going to need that back.”Laura: [laugh] people tripping and falling, and you know, hitting themselves with a hammer, they got an award because it was so safe, they had very little of that. And then this thing goes boom.Corey: And now they've tried to pivot into an optimization award for efficiency, like, we just decided to flash fry half the sea life in the Gulf at once.Laura: Yes. Extremely efficient. So, you know, I worry that we're doing SRE a little bit like BP. We're doing it back before Deepwater Horizon.Corey: I should disclose that I started my technical career as a grumpy old Unix sysadmin—because it's not like you ever see one of those who's happy or young; didn't matter that I was 23 years old, I was grumpy and old—and I have viewed the evolution since then have going from calling myself a sysadmin to a DevOps engineer to an SRE to a platform engineer to whatever we're calling it this week, I still view it as fundamentally the same job, in the sense that the responsibility has not changed, and that is keep the site or environment up. But the tools, the processes and the techniques we apply to it have evolved. Is that accurate? Does it sound like I'm spouting nonsense? You're far closer to the SRE world than I ever was, but I'm curious to get your take on that perspective. And please feel free to tell me I'm wrong.Laura: No, no. I think you're completely right. And I think one of the ways that I think is shifted, and it's really interesting, but when you and I were, when we were young, we could see everything that was happening. We were deploying on some sort of Linux box or other sort of Unix box somewhere, most likely, and if we wanted, we could go and see the entire source code of everything that our software was running on. And kids these days, they're coming up, and they are deploying their stuff on RDS and ECS and, you know, how many layers of abstraction are sitting between them and—Corey: “I run Kubernetes. That means I don't know where it runs, and neither does anyone else.” It's great.Laura: Yeah. So, there's no transparency anymore in what's happening. So, it's very easy, you get to a point where sometimes you hit a problem, and you just can't figure it out because you do not have a way to get into that system and see what's happening. You know, even at work, we ran into a problem with Amazon-hosted Prometheus. We were like, “This will be great. We'll just do that.” And we could not get some particular type of remote write operation to work. We just could not. Okay, so we'll have to do something else.So, one of the many, many things I do when I'm not, you know, trying to run the SREcon conference or do actual work or definitely not write a book, I'm studying at Lund University at the moment. I'm doing this master's degree in human factors and system safety. And one of the things I've realized since doing that program is, in tech, we missed this whole 1980s and 1990s discipline of cognitive systems theory, cognitive systems engineering. This is what people were doing. They were like, how can people in the control room in nuclear plants and in the cockpit in the airplane, how can they get along with their systems and build a good mental model of the automation and understand what's going on?We missed all that. We came of age when safety science was asking questions like how can we stop organizational failures like Challenger and Columbia, where people are just not making the correct decisions? And that was a whole different sort of focus. So, we've missed all of this 1980s and 1990s cognitive system stuff. And there's this really interesting idea there where you can build two types of systems: you can build a prosthesis which does all your interaction with a system for you, and you can see nothing, feel nothing, do nothing, it's just this black box, or you can have an amplifier, which lets you do more stuff than you could do just by yourself, but lets you still get into the details.And we build mostly prostheses. We do not build amplifiers. We're hiding all the details; we're building these very, very opaque abstractions. And I think it's to the detriment of—I mean, it makes our life harder in a bunch of ways, but I think it also makes life really hard for systems engineers coming up because they just can't get into the systems as easily anymore unless they're running them themselves.Corey: I have to confess that I have a certain aversion to aspects of SRE, and I'm feeling echoes of it around a lot of the human factor stuff that's coming out of that Lund program. And I think I know what it is, and it's not a problem with either of those things, but rather a problem with me. I have never been a good academic. I have an eighth grade education because school is not really for me. And what I loved about being a systems administrator for years was the fact that it was like solving puzzles every day.I got to do interesting things, I got to chase down problems, and firefight all the time. And what SRE is represented is a step away from that to being more methodical, to taking on keeping the site up as a discipline rather than an occupation or a task that you're working on. And I think that a lot of the human factors stuff plays directly into it. It feels like the field is becoming a lot more academic, which is a luxury we never had, when holy crap, the site is down, we're going to go out of business if it isn't back up immediately: panic mode.Laura: I got to confess here, I have three master's degrees. Three. I have problems, like I said before. I got what you mean. You don't like when people are speaking in generalizations and sort of being all theoretical rather than looking at the actual messy details that we need to deal with to get things done, right? I know. I know what you mean, I feel it too.And I've talked about the human factors stuff and theoretical stuff a fair bit at conferences, and what I always try to do is I always try and illustrate with the details. Because I think it's very easy to get away from the actual problems and, you know, spend too much time in the models and in the theory. And I like to do both. I will confess, I like to do both. And that means that the luxury I miss out on is mostly sleep. But here we are.Corey: I am curious as far as what you've seen as far as the human factors adoption in this space because every company for a while claimed to be focused on blameless postmortems. But then there would be issues that quickly turned into a blame Steve postmortem instead. And it really feels, at least from a certain point of view, that there was a time where it seemed to be gaining traction, but that may have been a zero interest rate phenomenon, as weird as that sounds. Do you think that the idea of human factors being tied to keeping systems running in a computer sense has demonstrated staying power or are you seeing a recession? It could be I'm just looking at headlines too much.Laura: It's a good question. There's still a lot of people interested in it. There was a conference in Denver last February that was decently well attended for, you know, a first initial conference that was focusing on this issue, and this very vibrant Slack community, the LFI and the Learning from Incidents in Software community. I will say, everything is a little bit stretched at the moment in industry, as you know, with all the layoffs, and a lot of people are just… there's definitely a feeling that people want to hunker down and do the basics to make sure that they're not seen as doing useless stuff and on the line for layoffs.But the question is, is this stuff actually useful or not? I mean, I contend that it is. I contend that we can learn from failures, we can learn from what we're doing day-to-day, and we can do things better. Sometimes you don't need a lot of learning because what's the biggest problem is obvious, right [laugh]? You know, in that case, yeah, your focus should just be on solving your big obvious problem, for sure.Corey: If there was a hierarchy of needs here, on some level, okay, step one, is the building—Laura: Yes.Corey: Currently on fire? Maybe solve that before thinking about the longer-term context of what this does to corporate culture.Laura: Yes, absolutely. And I've gone into teams before where people are like, “Oh, well, you're an SRE, so obviously, you wish to immediately introduce SLOs.” And I can look around and go, “Nope. Not the biggest problem right now. Actually, I can see a bunch of things are on fire. We should fix those specific things.”I actually personally think that if you want to go in and start improving reliability in a system, the best thing to do is to start a weekly production meeting if the team doesn't have that, actually create a dedicated space and time for everyone to be able to get together, discuss what's been happening, discuss concerns and risks, and get all that stuff out in the open. I think that's very useful, and you don't need to spend however long it takes to formally sit down and start creating a bunch of SLOs. Because if you're not dealing with a perfectly spherical web service where you can just use the Golden Signals and if you start getting into any sorts of thinking about data integrity, or backups, or any sorts of asynchronous processing, these sorts of things, they need SLOs that are a lot more interesting than your standard error rate and latency. Error rate and latency gets you so far, but it's really just very cookie-cutter stuff. But people know what's wrong with their systems, by and large. They may not know everything that's wrong with their systems, but they'll know the big things, for sure. Give them space to talk about it.Corey: Speaking of bigger things and turning into the idea of these things escaping beyond pure tech, you have been doing some rather interesting work in an area that I don't see a whole lot of people that I talked to communicating about. Specifically, you're volunteering for the campaign to stop killer robots, which ten years ago would have made you sound ridiculous, and now it makes you sound like someone who is very rationally and reasonably calling an alarm on something that is on our doorstep. What are you doing over there?Laura: Well, I mean, let's be real, it sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. I mean, who would let a computer fly around to the sky and choose what to shoot at? But it turns out that there are, in fact, a bunch of people who are building systems like that. So yeah, I've been volunteering with the campaign for about the last five years, since roughly around the time that I left Google, in fact, because I got interested in that around about the time that Google was doing the Project Maven work, which was when Google said, “Hey, wouldn't it be super cool if we took all of this DoD video footage of drone video footage, and, you know, did a whole bunch of machine-learning analysis on it and figured out where people are going all the time? Maybe we could click on this house and see, like, a whole timeline of people's comings and goings and which other people they are sort of in a social network with.”So, I kind of said, “Ahh… maybe I don't want to be involved in that.” And I left Google. And I found out that there was this campaign. And this campaign was largely lawyers and disarmament experts, people of that nature—philosophers—but also a few technologists. And for me, having run computer systems for a large number of years at this point, the idea that you would want to rely on a big distributed system running over some janky network with a bunch of 18-year-old kids running it to actually make good decisions about who should be targeted in a conflict seems outrageous.And I think almost every [laugh] software operations person, or in fact, software engineer that I've spoken to, tends to feel the same way. And yet there is this big practical debate about this in international relations circles. But luckily, there has just been a resolution in the UN just in the last day or two as we record this, the first committee has, by a very large majority, voted to try and do something about this. So hopefully, we'll get some international law. The specific interventions that most of us in this field think would be good would be to limit the amount of force that autonomous weapon, or in fact, an entire set of autonomous weapons in a region would be able to wield because there's a concern that should there be some bug or problem or a sort of weird factor that triggers these systems to—Corey: It's an inevitability that there will be. Like, that is not up for debate. Of course, it's going to break in 2020, the template slide deck that AWS sent out for re:Invent speakers had a bunch of clip art, and one of them was a line art drawing of a ham with a bone in it. So, I wound up taking that image, slapping it on a t-shirt, captioning it “AWS Hambone,” and selling that as a fundraiser for 826 National.Laura: [laugh].Corey: Now, what happened next is that for a while, anyone who tweeted the phrase “AWS Hambone” would find themselves banned from Twitter for the next 12 hours due to some weird algorithmic thing where it thought that was doxxing or harassment or something. And people on the other side of the issue that you're talking about are straight face-idly suggesting that we give that algorithm [unintelligible 00:24:32] tool a gun.Laura: Or many guns. Many guns.Corey: I'm sorry, what?Laura: Absolutely.Corey: Yes, or missiles or, heck, let's build a whole bunch of them and turn them loose with no supervision, just like we do with junior developers.Laura: Exactly. Yes, so many people think this is a great idea, or at least they purport to think this is a great idea, which is not always the same thing. I mean, there's lots of different vested interests here. Some people who are proponents of this will say, well, actually, we think that this will make targeting more accurate, less civilians will actually will die as a result of this. And the question there that you have to ask is—there's a really good book called Drone by Chamayou, Grégoire Chamayou, and he says that there's actually three meanings to accuracy.So, are you hitting what you're aiming at is one of it—one thing. And that's a solved problem in military circles for quite some time. You got, you know, laser targeting, very accurate. Then the other question is, how big is the blast radius? So, that's just a matter of, you know, how big an explosion are you going to get? That's not something that autonomy can help with.The only thing that autonomy could even conceivably help with in terms of accuracy is better target selection. So, instead of selecting targets that are not valid targets, selecting more valid targets. But I don't think there's any good reason to think that computers can solve that problem. I mean, in fact, if you read stuff that military experts write on this, and I've got, you know, lots of academic handbooks on military targeting processes, they will tell you, it's very hard and there's a lot of gray areas, a lot of judgment. And that's exactly what computers are pretty bad at. Although mind you, I'm amused by your Hambone story and I want to ask if AWS Hambone is a database?Corey: Anything is a database, if you hold it wrong.Laura: [laugh].Corey: It's fun. I went through a period of time where, just for fun, I would ask people to name an AWS service and I would talk about how you could use it incorrectly as a database. And then someone mentioned, “What about AWS Neptune,” which is their graph database, which absolutely no one understands, and the answer there is, “I give up. It's impossible to use that thing as a database.” But everything else can be. Like, you know, the tagging system. Great, that has keys and values; it's a database now. Welcome aboard. And I didn't say it was a great database, but it is a free one, and it scales to a point. Have fun with it.Laura: All I'll say is this: you can put labels on anything.Corey: Exactly.Laura: We missed you at the most recent SREcon EMEA. There was a talk about Google's internal Chubby system and how people started using it as a database. And I did summon you in Slack, but you didn't show up.Corey: No. Sadly, I've gotten a bit out of the SRE space. And also, frankly, I've gotten out of the community space for a little while, when it comes to conferences. And I have a focused effort at the start of 2024 to start changing that. I am submitting CFPs left and right.My biggest fear is that a conference will accept one of these because a couple of them are aspirational. “Here's how I built the thing with generative AI,” which spoiler, I have done no such thing yet, but by God, I will by the time I get there. I have something similar around Kubernetes, which I've never used in anger, but soon will if someone accepts the right conference talk. This is how I learned Git: I shot my mouth off in a CFP, and I had four months to learn the thing. It was effective, but I wouldn't say it was the best approach.Laura: [laugh]. You shouldn't feel bad about lying about having built things in Kubernetes, and with LLMs because everyone has, right?Corey: Exactly. It'll be true enough by the time I get there. Why not? I'm not submitting for a conference next week. We're good. Yeah, Future Corey is going to hate me.Laura: Have it build you a database system.Corey: I like that. I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you these days?Laura: Ohh, I'm sort of homeless on social media since the whole Twitter implosion, but you can still find me there. I'm @lauralifts on Twitter and I have the same tag on BlueSky, but haven't started to use it yet. Yeah, socials are hard at the moment. I'm on LinkedIn. Please feel free to follow me there if you wish to message me as well.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:28:31]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.Laura: Thank you for having me.Corey: Laura Nolan, Principal Software Engineer at Stanza. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry, insulting comment that soon—due to me screwing up a database system—will be transmogrified into a CFP submission for an upcoming SREcon.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business, and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

In this podcast episode, guest Laura Lawrence shares her powerful journey of finding purpose within pain. Through heartbreak and betrayal, she has experienced profound personal growth and resilience. Laura, an author, speaker, educator, and mental health advocate, opens up about enduring a heartbreaking and life-altering breakup. From the moment she heard the words 'I don't love you anymore,' she navigated a rollercoaster of emotions and started over as a single mother. Despite the overwhelming challenges, she recognized the need for professional support and sought help for herself and her children. Through alternative modalities like Body Talk, she was able to release stored emotions and heal her mind, body, and spirit. Laura's dedication to mental health led her to become a mental health advocate for youth. Her passion for working with young people inspired her to establish the nonprofit organization Youth Matter Canada, empowering thousands of kids to speak up about their mental health. Through her book 'Behind Closed Doors' and upcoming podcast, Laura continues to share her story and empower others to overcome adversity and embrace resilience. Laura's Links: www.lauralawrence.ca/shop (link to purchase book) www.instagram.com/lauralawrence.author (IG account) .................................................................. Rising Strong LINKS: FREE resource: Create More ME Time: bit.ly/metimeresource Get all the podcast updates and notifications of new episodes: bit.ly/risingstrongupdates Support this podcast by purchasing a Calming Journal: bit.ly/calmingjournals Follow us on Instagram: @risingstrongpodcast Facebook page: send your a screenshot of your podcast reviews via the 'comment' button here: @Risingstrongpodcast WIN SWAG: Screenshot your 5-star review for a chance to win some Rising Strong swag! then send it to Lisa@LisaKBoehm.com Remember to follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode .................................................................. TRANSCRIPT: HOST/Lisa: In the journey through heartbreak and betrayal, many find themselves lost in the chaos of emotions. How is it that some people find the purpose within the pain and experience profound personal growth? Today's guest, Laura Lawrence, is going to tell you exactly that. Laura is an author, speaker, educator, and mental health advocate who has shared the stage with powerful female voices like Dr. Jody Carrington and Jess Tatu. Hi, I'm Lisa, and this is Rising strong mental health and resilience. On this podcast, we dive into different kinds of adversity and the resilience required to rise above. Make sure to follow or subscribe so you don't miss a single episode. Now, let's get started. All right. Today I have Laura Lawrence in studio with me. I met Laura about a year and a half ago, and I was in awe of her inner strength and confidence the moment I met her. She has weathered some storms that some of you will relate to, and her resilience is inspiring. Welcome to the show, Laura. Laura: Thank you for having me, and thank you for those kind words, Host/Lisa: all truths. Laura, you have endured a heartbreaking and life altering breakup. Tell us about the events that unfolded when you heard the words, I don't love you anymore. Laura: Wow. Well, gosh, so many events unfolded after those words, and at the time, it was absolutely the hardest thing I had ever had to navigate in my life. There were so many emotions, so many layers to it, and starting over in life at the age of 32 with two children under the age of six was absolutely terrifying. But I'll take you back a little bit and tell you kind of where it all began. So I met my ex husband when we were 16 years old. We were high school sweethearts. We got married when I was 22. And in our 17 year journey together, we walked side by side through so many things. We had two children together. We grieved the loss of a child through a miscarriage together. We grieved the loss of loved ones together. We embarked on new career paths, new journeys. But it was about at the ten year marriage mark that we found ourselves in the depths of conflict that really had started many years prior. Both of us were carrying our own inner child wounds, over, committed to work, chaotic schedules, stresses of life work, raising children, really all the things that two people in a relationship or a marriage face. And we were facing them with two different mindsets, two different belief systems, two different sets of upbringing in our families. But it was after one fateful argument that we had that was the tipping point. It was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I would say he was emotionally depleted, and so was I. But he was done. Like, actually done. So from that night of that argument to today, almost, oh, gosh, twelve years later, there has always been four sides to this multilayered love story and separation story. There's my side, there's his. Of course, there's our children's side and the outside world, who always had their view from what I like to call the cheap seats. Host/Lisa: Wow, that's really interesting. You always hear there's two sides to every story, which I agree with. I'd never thought about those other two dimensions that you mentioned. Yeah, that's really powerful. And did you find that the cheap seats were giving you some difficult times as well, on top of everything else that you were dealing with? Laura: Oh, yes, they certainly were. It was a very public and painful separation divorce. It's interesting. Just a couple of weeks ago, I heard yet another rumor, honestly, a decade later. So, yeah, living in a small community, being in the public eye, as at the time, I was a teacher, an educator in the community. We lived a block from the school. We ran a business together. We were often in the public's eye through community service organizations. So it was definitely a journey. Host/Lisa: How did this all make you feel? Laura: It was gutting. It was heart wrenching. There were so many days and nights where I felt hopeless. It felt like my entire world and the ideals that I and many of us cling on to since we're children, imagining what a marriage would look like and feel like I mean, all of it came crashing down at once. And now when I say that, I say that kind of tongue in cheek because of course, it didn't all come crashing down in a day. It was years in the making. But it felt like a shattered ceiling, a crumbling floor. There's so many ways I could describe it, and I often describe that time as if it felt similar to falling into a deep, dark well and that I could see the light just out of the distance of the top of the well. But it was cold, it was lonely, it was dark. Every time I tried to kind of clamor up the sides of the well, I would fall back down again. And I, to that point, had never experienced depression. It was even hard for me to understand seeing loved ones or friends go through depression because I just had never been there in my own mind and body. But if you've ever been through a breakup or a separation or divorce, you know very well that gut punching feeling of hearing somebody tell you that they're done or they just don't love you anymore, or that's it, there's really no going back from that moment. Host/Lisa: Do you think it was harder for you to navigate the path forward, or do you think it was harder for you to watch your children navigate the path forward? Laura: Wow, that's an interesting question. I would say that both were very difficult in different ways where, I mean, I definitely felt helpless. There were things that were within my control that I could have done leading up to that point and then also in trying to find resolution. But for children who are involved in separation and divorce, they really are helpless. They really are the collateral damage, so to speak. And I wanted to ensure that as much as I could have the power over ensuring that my children didn't feel like collateral damage, it's almost inevitable, just with all of the layers that kind of ensue following a separation and divorce. Host/Lisa: Did you seek professional support for yourself or for yourself and your children? Laura: Yeah, I mean, 100%. I know. I think when you had sent me the show notes, you had asked, how did this affect your mental health? And when I was thinking about it, the very first thing that came to my mind was the easier question would be, like, how didn't it affect my mental health? It affected absolutely every aspect of my wellness. I could not sleep. I could not eat. I could not focus or concentrate at work. I cried for hours and hours daily. I fixated became obsessed with trying to solve it, work it out, make it work. I was anxious. I was depressed. And although I never made a formal plan to take my life and I don't think I've ever publicly spoken about this as a speaker and an author, I'm not even sure this is in my book. Actually, I'm pretty sure it isn't. But I do remember one evening that I was driving home late and the thought had crossed my mind what would happen if I just allowed my car to slip across the solid yellow line? And it was just for a fraction of a minute that that thought was there. But I clearly remember that. And I couldn't show up as my best self for my children or my students. I really was an empty shell. I lost 30 pounds so quickly, many people asked and wondered if I was sick. There were even questions whether I had a terminal illness because I had to hide so much for quite a few months, as we hadn't told our children or our families for a while. And the act of hiding the truth really took its toll, I think, not on me, but on all of us. I mean, on my ex husband as well, and on the children. So absolutely I needed to seek professional help. And this part I write extensively about in my book. It started with an intervention weekend. And that's how it goes for many of us, especially when we're in the depths of that well of depression and we really can't see the light at all, it often takes somebody in our inner circle, our loved ones, who reach down and pull us up or pull us out. And I'm very thankful to two very good friends who are concerned, deeply concerned for me. And so they had planned an intervention weekend. It was that weekend that I was introduced to the psychologist who would become like a grandmother to me later and who would stand beside me in this dance of healing. Over the next decade, I was introduced to two very powerful alternative modalities called Reiki and Body Talk during that weekend, and I sought medical help with my doctor, was prescribed medications to help with my sleep and help with my anxiety. So it was like full force after that intervention weekend and kind of throwing all the tools that I could at trying to rebuild so many things that felt broken. Host/Lisa; Now, I know you fairly well, and I also know you to be a very strong woman. And I think anybody who's been through difficult times ultimately knows that the work comes from us. I absolutely think that a therapist, a counselor, is so important when you're going through difficult times, but ultimately that work has to come from within us. Do you remember a turning point when you kind of pulled up your bootstraps and really thought, okay, what do I have to do now to take myself forward and my kids forward? Or was it very evolutionary for you? Laura: No, I mean, I knew that right from the beginning, of course, as I mentioned that. And anybody listening to this, who's ever been any type of conflict in a relationship or a marriage knows that the tension, the conflict builds. And often two people are very different. They have different belief systems, they different subconscious programming. They solve problems differently, they love differently, they communicate differently. And so finding that dance with a partner and finding what works for you and what works for them, it's a tumultuous dance. And I remember taking so much responsibility for so many things and being really hard on myself about how I made so many mistakes or I could have done this better, or I could have done this different. And when it was time for my healing journey, I just knew there was nobody else that was going to do it except for me. And I hadn't been studying any alternative modalities at that point yet, but I had been doing a lot of reading in Conscious Living and Consciousness, and I had been reading books by authors like Deepak Chopra. It's very interesting. Looking back now, it was almost as if my subconscious was preparing me or my psyche was preparing me for what was to come. And then, of course, the path that it led me down, and exploring more of the complementary alternative methods of healing, I absolutely then learned the power of healing yourself and working on that which you can control and the only thing you control which is yourself. Host/Lisa: So true. So how has Body Talk helped you on your journey? Laura: As I mentioned, it was one of those modalities that I was introduced to in that intervention weekend. I had never heard of it before, which is the story that most people will say when it crosses their path. I didn't know what it was. I had no idea what to expect. And I remember after I had that first session on that intervention weekend, I was not impressed, I was not enthused. I thought, I don't know what that was. Didn't really work for me, but cool, thanks. Turns out it kept coming back into my life. And I think that the things that are meant for us always do. They always keep doorknocking. Right? And it turned out to be life changing. The most powerful transformations in my mind, my body and my spirit were all because of this amazing modality. And I would say so for many of my family members as well who have experienced it, including my own children. Like I said after my first session, I was so skeptical and I would even say that didn't work. But I kept being called back to it. And what I tell people about Body Talk is you don't find it, it finds you. That was really cool that it just kept coming back into my awareness. And what it allowed me to do was explore how deeply I was attached to belief systems that were formed very early, before I even knew, in my subconscious between zero to seven, in my own experiences with my family and how I was parented and all the things that happen in that core formation period between age zero to seven. And I realized how so many of those belief systems that I would attach to were wreaking havoc not just in my mental wellness, but really trickling down into the physical manifestation of pain and illness in my body. Body Talk allowed me to release stored emotion from years of experiences and conflict that I was carrying, whether it be inner conflict or conflict that I had had with people in my past or family members in my past. It really was life changing. I just felt like it was the next thing for me to do. It was the next step. It was really what I needed to explore for my full path of healing. So when I left the teaching profession, I began to study Body Talk and I became a certified practitioner and I took all of my advanced classes and I started a business in a community where there were no Body Talk practitioners. Nobody had ever heard of it. I am so grateful for every client who's trusted me sitting beside them and walking beside them in their healing journey. It has been not only healing for them, but also for myself. Host/Lisa: I know we've had this conversation before, but isn't it interesting how when we can get to that space where we can help other people with their healing, that we also benefit from the healing that comes from that work? Laura: Yeah, it's a two way street. It's very reciprocal in nature and forever. As long as I'm living, I will practice Body Talk in some aspect. So let's talk a little bit about the work that you do as a mental health advocate for our youth. Yeah, that's something that I just have always been really passionate about working with youth. So I'm the oldest grandchild on both sides, and I've always been surrounded by kids and always the oldest one in the group. I've been drawn to working with youth since I was a child. I had a vision of becoming a doctor when I was in my last few years of high school, and I changed lanes at the last minute and became a teacher. So I went into the College of Education at the University of Saskatchewan and finished my degree as a high school science teacher. I spent over 15 years in a rural school setting teaching high school sciences and biology and chemistry. I was a coach. I was a mentor. I worked with kids outside of the classroom for many, many hours. I really loved my job and the kids I got to work with, and I had a front row seat, seeing many youth struggle with their own mental health. And this was again, I've been out of the classroom for ten years. Even ten years ago, we did not talk about mental health the way we do now. And so often, kids struggled in silence. But I always had that innate kind of intuitive gut feeling when a kid didn't look okay or when I noticed something that had changed in their demeanor or their attitude or their motivation or their behavior. After certifying as a Body Talk practitioner, after I'd left the classroom, I began creating Mindfulness in the Classroom workshops and professional development opportunities for schools and students, and found myself being hired back into schools, into classrooms, but from a different lens. And I created Mindfulness for Kids camps and workshops that I hosted in my local area. I just absolutely love engaging in youth that way. And then in 2019, I had this wild and crazy idea one day while taking a road trip with my husband, that I thought it would be just so incredible to host a mental health conference day for kids. I had been to so many conferences in my professional career, and they always motivated me and uplifted me and just gave me that extra spark that I needed. And I thought, how cool would that be to do for kids? And that was the beginning of starting my nonprofit organization, youth Matter Canada. And thanks to the help of many passionate individuals in my volunteer team working with Youth Matter, we have been able to help thousands of kids all across the province of Saskatchewan and beyond reach out and speak up for their mental health. Host/Lisa: So important. I think every year that goes by, we're seeing more and more of a crisis, and what a better place to start than with our youth? I love that. Laura: Yeah, I think it's the only place to start, really, for me. It's all I know to do is to help the youth because they're our future. I guess when I say the only place to start, it doesn't mean that we write the rest of us off who are midlife. But I think that when we're taking a real serious look on how we're going to change our approach, we need to start looking at how we spend time with engaging youth in conversations about mental wellness. Host/Lisa: What an incredible gift to give kids all these tools and coping skills that they can use all through life. Laura: Yeah. And it's been incredible working with thousands of kids and talking to them about mental health and having just heart to heart conversations, teaching them some different strategies for self regulation and self awareness. They're not as attached to rigid belief systems, so they are willing to think about things and look at things from a different perspective than adults. And I just think that's just the coolest mindset when you're approaching something like mental wellness. When we travel around the province with our Be Kind to Your Mind team, going into different schools, we have the absolute best conversations with these kids. When we ask them, what does mental health look like? When we talk about the stigmas, when we talk about how just because somebody looks a certain way, we can't assume that they're not struggling, we have this really cool practice we do with them called the imaginary backpack practice. Where we talk about. Every one of us is born with this invisible backpack. And it all starts fairly empty from the time we're born. But then everything that happens to us, every experience that we have with our families, with the outside world, loads into the backpack. So emotions and conflict and trauma and that backpack gets so heavy if we don't learn ways to unpack it, if we don't get a team of people who love us to help us unpack it. And we actually do this visually with the kids by getting them to put a really heavy backpack on their back and then a really light backpack. And it's just incredible, the conversations that come from that so powerful. Host/Lisa: So it just seems like a natural progression, really, that you've gone from the kind of work that you're explaining to us with youth matter and have rolled that really into your speaking career and on stage. I know you talk about lots of things, including Adversity, struggles, challenges, mental health, all kinds of things. Why do you think it's important that you talk about mental health? Laura: Well, mental health is the root of everything. It's the root of absolutely everything. We cannot have any conversation about anything affecting our lives without having a conversation about the state of our mental health. It is the foundation and root of our families, our communities, our work. For me, there's no division. Yeah, like, it's all mental health related. It's just immersed in our everyday life, in the way we talk, the conversations we have. It's so cool. The other day my five year old said to me he could really sense that I was having a bad morning. He could sense that my emotions were starting to become very overwhelming for me. And he looked at me and he said, mom, you should just try that rainbow breathing that you teach us. And when I was subbing for him today in their class, their kindergarten class, I could see him from the corner of my eye engaging in a little bit of meditative breath work because he was feeling very overwhelmed. And I mean, that's the power of immersing all of our conversations, our life, our relationships with mental health. Host/Lisa: I couldn't agree more. I think that is where we need to begin with everything. So when you and I met, you were just getting ready to start editing and publishing your book, Behind Closed Doors. Why did you write this book? Laura: It's another loaded question. Well, sharing stories changes and saves lives. And I think that when I have felt, seen, heard, valued and loved, it felt so much easier for me to get through the hard things. And when we're reminded that we're not alone, that we don't need to struggle in silence, that we're not a failure, but rather just human, it gives us the courage to keep going. And I had never imagined years ago that I'd spiral into the deep depression that I did. I had never imagined that I would be navigating a Divorce, a Separation, Coparenting, which is a whole other podcast in and of itself. But I thought if I could help others with tools and mind shifts and practices to help decrease the impact of stress on their minds and bodies, I would continue to do that for the rest of my days. And for me, writing was always such a big part of my own ability to release stored emotion, to cathartically move through hard things that I had been experiencing. And five years ago I founded a mental health movement called Strong as a Mother. And it was a coffee and conversation series that brought women together in the spirit of connection and real conversation. And why I founded it was because I was a mother who was struggling with so many things silently, because that was the strong thing to do. And I knew that I wasn't alone, I couldn't be alone. And that other women have had to have experienced similar things that I had been experiencing behind closed doors and not talking about them. And so I wanted to create a platform, a community, a movement that brought women together to talk about these things. And it morphed into this really beautiful community of courageous and resilient and everyday normal women who shared their vulnerability, their stories, their laughter, their tears with one another at every event that I hosted. And from that journey I just knew that I wanted every woman out there to experience the magic of the stronger as a mother community that we had created, even though they couldn't get to it in person or I'd never experienced it. So I chose 13 women from that movement that had sat heart to heart with me and with other women and bravely shared their stories of navigating some of the lowest of lows and highest of highs from their journeys of marriage and motherhood and mental health. And I wrote a book about it and I wove pieces of my own story in between those little mini memoirs that ended up being a collection of true heart work that I'm really proud of. And I'm so grateful to those women who sat heart to heart with me because it has created an incredible ripple effect of love and support and the messages and emails I get from readers whom I've never met who just said the book changed their life. Just to be able to read a story and see a version of themselves in that story is just so powerful for their own healing and they're really a gentle way that we can learn from one another and to really help understand different things. Host/Lisa: And that's exactly what your book does. You could pick it up. You don't even have to start at the beginning. You can read each memoir on its own. And there is definitely something in your book for everybody. Well done. Laura: Thank you. What's next for you? I feel like every time I talk to you, you've got something new coming up on the horizon. Tell us what's going on. Laura: Well, there's always something next. My busy brain is both a blessing and a curse. And I have quite a creative mind, so I'm always thinking about the next thing. So I have already written three children's books, all under the niche of mental wellness. They are published and available on my website and through Amazon. But I have two more children's books that have been edited and are ready to release, so those will be coming out in 2024. And I have had this dream to actually host my own podcast since 2018. In fact, the graphic designer who did my website back in 2018, I had her put in the corner on the bottom coming soon podcast. But turns out Coming soon was five years. So that'll be coming in early 2024 as well. Well, I'm so excited to hear the first episode when it comes out in the new year. Congratulations on that. Thank you. And I think that what it stems from, and I write about this in the book, is that there are two things that every soul on this planet will experience in life, and those two things are love and pain. And the degree to which we love someone or something is very synonymous to the degree of which we experience pain when that someone or something leaves us or dies or becomes ill. And I think that creating a platform or a movement where you can allow people to feel vulnerable enough to share that love, to share that pain is so cathartic and so healing. I am really excited, but a podcast is not for the faint of heart. So I want to congratulate you as well. Your episodes have been phenomenal. I absolutely love tuning in and I think that many people don't know what goes behind all of the work in creating these platforms. It's hard work. Host/Lisa: It's hard work for sure. Definitely hard work and heart work, as you say. Just for our listeners, I will be listing Laura's books and where you can find them and also the links to connect with Laura if you have any questions for her. But Laura, I would love to know. Now this is a surprise question. She doesn't know that. I'm going to ask this. What does resilience mean to you? Laura: Resilience means picking yourself back up again after you've fallen in that deep, dark well and reaching out to those who love you, who support you to get back up again. I really, truly believe that we can't experience resilience or have resilience on our own. It's not a one woman or one man show. It really comes from our support systems, from those we love, from those that encourage us to get back up again. And for me, resilience meant restarting. The paths that we take are very different from what we thought life would look like. And so resilience is just navigating those paths again in new ways. host/Lisa: Yeah, I agree. And I'm also going to add to that, and this is just my spin on things, but I also think we can't have resilience without having had Adversity first. Laura: Oh, for sure. I just don't think we can truly understand what resilience is until we have fallen flat on our face, unfortunately. Host/Lisa: So how do you think you've become resilient? Sometimes I think I have had to fake it until I actually made it. To be honest. I think that my resilience has really come from my ability to be open minded, but also to build community. I say without doubt, the divorce, the separation led me to today, which I am incredibly grateful for. I have had the most beautiful opportunities to develop rich, abundant and grateful moments and relationships with people that would have never come my way had that frying pan moment not happened in my life. Host/Lisa: Right. It's so true. And I think that when we fall flat on our face and we have to get back up and usually it's not just one time getting up and it's all good, right? We're falling down, getting up, falling down, getting up a whole bunch of times. Every time we get back up, we gain a little bit of confidence. Oh yeah, I was down here before. I remember this place. Okay. And I've got this tool. Belt and it's getting more tools in it. I know how to get up, and I think that that's very powerful as well on our journey, because life is not easy, but we have to just keep going. Laura: We are always one moment away from a different trajectory in life. And so having those tools, having that team, having that community so that they can help pick you up when you go through those lowest of lows is imperative. And I think that we can't get comfortable in thinking that we've arrived at a certain healing space, because healing is just not a linear journey. It is messy, you know, my friend, it is messy. Host/Lisa: It is very messy. Laura, you're a very wise woman, and I am so grateful that you took some time out to spend time with me today. And I know that your message is going to resonate with many of our listeners. So thank you so much for coming today. And to our listeners, be well and stay resilient. Laura: Thanks, Lisa. Host/Lisa

Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast. This week I'm talking to specialist diabetes dietitian Erin Phillips about all things insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. Erin shares some background on what happens in the body that leads to type 2 diabetes, why ‘prediabetes' is a dubious diagnosis and the things the keto-bros often leave out this conversation. We talk about why sugar and higher weight aren't the cause of type 2 diabetes, and how there is so much more we can do to care for diabetes outside of cutting carbs and losing weight, especially if you have a background of an ED or disordered eating. Lots of you have requested more content around this topic - let me know what questions you still have after listening to this episode!Find out more about Erin's work here.Follow her on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTROErin: I think sometimes a diagnosis of prediabetes or type 2 diabetes can be a traumatic event, especially when it's not in the presence of someone caring and that you trust. Or especially if you have a family history of diabetes where you've seen…maybe some scary things. Which I will – now that I said that – I will add that it's, that's not a definite outcome either, those scary things, yeah.But it can be, that can be really stressful, and that's the opposite of what is helpful for blood sugars.Laura: Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast where we talk about appetite, bodies and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter.Today's guest is registered dietitian Erin Phillips. Erin's work is grounded in health at every size and fat positive nutrition. She has an advanced certification as a diabetes specialist and has spent most of her career working with people living with all types of diabetes. She has a private practice that focuses primarily on the intersection of diabetes and eating disorders. She works with people living with diabetes through individual counselling, as well as providing consultation to clinicians looking to be more grounded and confident in supporting their clients and patients with co-occurring diagnoses of diabetes and eating disorders. So I've had a lot of feedback from newsletter readers and people who listen to the podcast saying that you'd like more information about weight-inclusive approaches to so-called prediabetes – which we'll get into in a minute – insulin resistance and elevated glucose levels as well as type 2 diabetes. Most of the advice out there centers on carbs. So I was excited to talk to Erin about why these approaches are not only unhelpful for a lot of folks, but how they can be harmful. And why you don't need to get sucked into diet culture to care for yourself. In this episode, we discuss why type 2 diabetes isn't caused by too much sugar or having a bigger body, why pre-diabetes is a fake diagnosis, and why you don't need to cut out carbs to manage your blood sugar. I'm so excited for you to hear this episode. But before we get to Erin, I want to remind you that the Can I Have Another Snack? universe is entirely listener and reader supported. If you get something out of the work that we do here, please help support us by becoming a paid subscriber. It's £5 a month or £50 for the year. And as well as getting you loads of cool perks, you help guarantee the sustainability of this newsletter, have a say in the work that we do here and help ensure I can keep delivering deeply researched pieces that provide a diet culture-free take on hot nutrition topics like ultra processed foods, the Zoe app, and the deep dive on folic acid and folate that I just did recently.All of those you can read at laurathomas.substack.com if you haven't already. And if you're not totally sold yet then maybe this lovely review that I got recently will help convince you. So one reader wrote: “I feel so lucky that I found your work around the same time I started feeding my kid real food. It saved me so much angst and has allowed me to relax and really enjoy seeing him explore eating. Your essays on sugar especially was a game changer. I'm sure it won't always be plain sailing, but I feel so much more prepared to ride the waves of his changing appetite. and tastes as he grows, accepting them as a feature and not a bug.So hopefully he can have a much more relaxed relationship to food than I had for a long time. And I pay my £5 a month because I so value the work you put into your writing and think it's worth paying for. There's a lot of free advice out there, but I never know what I can trust. This is such a safe haven.”So yeah, it's £5 a month or £50 for the year. You can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com or check out the show notes for this episode. And if you can't stretch to a paid subscription right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk for a comp subscription. No questions asked. You don't need to justify yourself. Just put ‘Snacks' in the subject line. This is actually going to be our last podcast of the year. I'll be back in your ears in January with brand new guests. Paid subscribers will continue to hear from me in your inboxes and in the group chat, where I'm going to be holding space for all the venting and screaming at diet culture shit that gets dredged up over the holidays and into January. If you'd like to join us, you can sign up at LauraThomas.substack.com. Otherwise I'll speak to you in January. Okay, team. Over to Erin. MAIN EPISODE:Alright, Erin. Can you please start by telling us a bit more about you and the work that you do?Erin: Yeah. I am a registered dietitian. Well, in the United States, based in, um, the Seattle, Washington…I was gonna say, the ‘state of Washington'! And I'm also a certified diabetes care and education specialist. It used to be a certified diabetes educator and they wanted to add more letters. So I'm in private practice and I focus on working with people with diabetes and eating disorders at the same time, or people who had a history of an eating disorder and then were recently diagnosed with diabetes but don't want like It wouldn't be helpful or safe for them to go to just any diabetes educator.So those are the folks that I work with.Laura: Okay, so you're kind of working at that intersection between eating disorder care and diabetes care. And I think, like, what's important to highlight, which people might not be...aware of or familiar with is the idea that people who have type 2 diabetes, I would say in particular, but all forms of diabetes are at a heightened risk of disordered eating and eating disorders. And does that relationship…? No, it doesn't go the other way, does it?Erin: I think it does.Laura: You think it does?Erin: I think it does. There isn't a lot of research on it, but clinically, I absolutely see that.Laura: Okay. That's interesting. Erin: And eating disorders and gestational diabetes. I was talking with a colleague about this, that we see people with a history of, of an eating disorder, it feels like are at much higher risk of gestational diabetes.But the research…I don't, I haven't looked into the research on that, but we definitely see it clinically.Laura: Yeah, that's an interesting observation that you've noticed. So, you use this term diabetes educator. We don't have that here so it might be helpful to just kind of explain a little bit about what that is and then maybe we can unpack what exactly we're talking about here when we talk about diabetes and sort of associated terms.Erin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for clarifying that. I love talking to people in other countries to learn about like, what do things look like there? So, a diabetes educator, I know they have them in the States and in Canada, maybe Australia, but basically what it is, is...Laura: Just to clarify, like, okay, in case my, like...dietetics colleagues are all like yelling at me right now. We do have dieticians that specialise in diabetes, but it's like the diabetes educator title is kind of a, like a bolt on right to your, your like baseline nutrition training. Is that right?Erin: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So here to become a. a certified diabetes care and education specialist – that's such a mouthful! You, yeah, you need, I think it's 2000 hours of working with people with diabetes after you've become, become a dietitian or you can be a social worker, you can be a pharmacist, you can be a nurse. There's lots of nurses that are diabetes educators. So you get those practice hours, you get continuing, I don't know how many hours of continuing education a lot. And then you take an exam, right? Then it's like, well, at least here, like the dietitian renewal where every five years you renew by getting enough continuing education credits.Laura: Okay, so it's safe to say you know a lot of stuff about diabetes.Erin: Yes, I think so, yeah.Laura: It's kind of your thing. So, I really wanted to talk to you specifically about type 2 diabetes today because, 1) there seems to be a lot of confusion about it. 2) It kind of gets bundled up with a lot of anti-fat bias and carb-phobia and diet culture. And then 3), it's something that listeners of the podcast and readers of the newsletter have requested that we talk about. Would you mind starting by just telling us what exactly type 2 diabetes is, and how it relates to concepts like prediabetes and insulin resistance? So that's a big question. Where feels like the best place to start?Erin: I think actually starting with insulin resistance, because I think of that as kind of an umbrella and then prediabetes and type 2 diabetes fall underneath that umbrella. Yeah. So, insulin resistance is a term that means…so all humans have glucose floating around in their blood at all times. That is the main source of fuel. It's so funny to look at you while I'm talking about this because I'm like, you know this! But anyway, all humans have glucose floating around in the blood. It's our main source of fuel for the body. And then for glucose to get into our cells, we need insulin. And I always use the analogy of: insulin is the key that unlocks the cell to let the glucose in. And so insulin resistance is where that key gets a little, like, sticky or…kind of like the key to my car right now that I have to wriggle it the just the right way. So it can take a little bit longer for the glucose to get into the cell. It still happens but it just takes a little bit longer.So that is insulin resistance and that is one of the key features of both ‘prediabetes' and type 2 diabetes. Often, when I say ‘prediabetes', I do bunny ears or air quotes because it's a misunderstood term and we can totally get into that later. But so type 2 diabetes is where a body has either lived with insulin resistance long enough or something else has happened that has made, in addition to insulin resistance, glucose levels get high enough in the blood to meet this diagnostic criteria.And we've actually…this is something I love sharing with people because often type 2 diabetes is just like, all we focus on is insulin resistance, but there's actually at least 10 other changes in the body that lead to elevated glucose levels that are going on in addition to insulin resistance.Laura: Okay, before we go on, I want to actually reverse and back up a little bit here, because…so you talked about how we have glucose in our bloodstreams that needs to get into our cells all the time.That's like everybody, always – even if you're like a keto bro. What I just wanted to make really clear for anyone who's totally new to these conversations is that glucose…it gets into our bloodstream from the food that we eat and it's a sugar, right? So I think those are two important points to clarify, that we consume food, it gets broken down and digested and absorbed across the gut lumen. And that's what raises our blood glucose levels. And then insulin is the hormone that's secreted by the pancreas that unlocks the door to the cell, to let glucose move into the cell, so we have energy, so we can do things, so we can go about our business as being humans. Sometimes what can happen is that the door gets a little rusty, or the key gets a little rusty, and it's harder for that insulin to get into the cell. Is that like a fair summary of... Wow. What's going on? Erin: That was beautiful. I was nodding furiously.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like I know something about this! Right. So then can you tell us a little, like – I think you alluded to this – but maybe speak to it a little more to how the kind of the cells get rusty and how it's harder to shift insulin into the cells.Can you talk to us about what happens next? Maybe some of the symptoms people might experience and then what's going on physiologically as well.Erin: Yeah. So when a body is experiencing those like rusty cell doors, there's a lot of different hormones that are actually involved in not only glucose regulation or blood sugar regulation, but just metabolism.So glucose regulation is just one part of metabolism. And when I say metabolism, I mean using energy from food and turning that energy into energy for the body and then using energy to the body.Laura: Yeah, thank you for clarifying that because this is something I come up against a lot where like metabolism is used as this kind of catch-all phrase to mean how quickly your body burns energy or it's like this really diet culture-y kind of thing.But when you and I are talking about it... I think we're talking about all the biochemical processes that are going on inside your body, all these cascades of reactions and like how a nutrient that we ingest in food or in a supplement winds its way into our body and becomes part of these chemical reactions that are going on, like, deep inside our tissues.Erin: Yep. Yeah, that good old Krebs cycle. So when the cell door gets rusty, that's a big kind of flag for the body, I guess you could say, for the metabolic process. So, I think you mentioned the pancreas already. So the pancreas is the organ in the body that produces the hormone insulin, along with other hormones. When the pancreas notices the cell doors getting rusty, the pancreas will say, Oh, that's cool. I got this. And we'll start producing more and more insulin because the signal that the pancreas is getting is from the cells. The cells are saying, we're not getting the glucose that we're wanting, that we need, that we need to survive or not getting it as quickly or as much. And so then the pancreas starts producing more and more insulin.Laura: So it's trying to, it's getting the message that there's not enough insulin to, to get the glucose from the bloodstream into the cell so it starts to produce more. And can you maybe speak to the impact that this can have on the pancreas? Is it helpful to explain that a little bit?Erin: Yeah, yeah, I think so, because I think that's also something that people don't think about or aren't explained. Yeah. So the beta cells are the cells in the pancreas that produce insulin, and as they produce more and more insulin, they start to, after... I should say after decades of producing more and more insulin, those beta cells start to kind of poop out.Laura: Yeah, they get exhausted.Erin: Yeah. That's a better word.Laura: Crap out, poop out, exhaustion. Yeah, like ultimately they're working really hard for a really long time and that takes a toll, I think is what we're saying.Erin: Yeah, they start to go on strike, like they're doing the work of more…Laura: Like the teachers and the nurses and the doctors and the train drivers and yeah, we're having a lot of strikes here at the moment.So yeah, it's almost as though governments are failing globally, right? Almost.Erin: Yeah, you have to laugh because otherwise you cry! So the pancreas starts to get exhausted, in the research that's called beta cell exhaustion or beta cell failure. So the pancreas isn't able to produce quite as much insulin anymore.And after decades and decades and decades, the pancreas will not be able to produce enough insulin to meet the needs of the body. And that's when I say, store bought insulin works really well for that.Laura: Store bought! I love it. I love it because to me that just feels like a much kinder non-judgmental framing of what I think is…often a condition that is attached with a lot of shame and judgment. Like, yeah, there's, there's a real narrative that if you get to the point where you need the store bought insulin, that that's a failure.And there's a lot of research and a lot of conversations at the moment about this idea around ‘remission' and, you know, ‘reversing diabetes' and, and all of those kinds of things, which we're going to speak to a little bit in a minute, but I think that just adds so much to the shame of needing the store bought insulin. So yeah, that just feels like a really kind kind of framing around that. So let's see, we've talked a little bit about the mechanisms whereby we find it harder to get glucose into the cells over a long, long, long period of time that can kind of exhaust the pancreas, which means that we might need to get that store bought insulin. But there's kind of a wide spectrum between, like, the cells starting to get rusty and getting to the point where you might need insulin...endogenous? Exogenous! Exogenous insulin.Erin: That's why I say store bought!Laura: Store bought, yes. And I think that's where maybe this idea of like prediabetes comes in. And we've, you've talked about how that's maybe not the most helpful label.I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there's a period where somebody might have some insulin resistance, might have elevated blood glucose levels. But it's not considered high enough for a type 2 diabetes diagnosis. So could you explain what's going on there and why that's a contested term?Erin: Yeah, yeah. So if we think about a timeline of a body experiencing insulin resistance, the first thing that will happen is the insulin resistance And then the next thing that will happen…I shouldn't say will, that's the biggest thing that I don't like about the term pr diabetes is this, that it, it makes us think that it will happen.So what could happen, a body experiences insulin resistance. What could happen is that their glucose levels start to increase to a level where they meet the prediabetes diagnostic criteria. And then, the assumption with the term prediabetes is that that means eventually, unless you do something, like in big, bold, scary letters, that eventually, your body will meet the diagnostic criteria for type 2 diabetes.But what research shows is that that's not, that's not the case. I'm maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.Laura: No, I know. That's absolutely…I think it's a really important point. And so I have, and Erin, you can tell me if this isn't quite right, but my understanding is that progression from prediabetes to type 2 diabetes is less than 2% per year or less than 10% in 5 years.And I also have another statistic that 59% of people with prediabetes return to normal blood glucose values between 1 and 11 years with no treatment at all. Does that corroborate with your understanding? .Erin: Yeah, yeah, I recently was looking into this research and that sounds like exactly what I found. And it really depends on where you look and what study you look at and what population they were looking at. But the, the biggest takeaway for me was that it's not…Laura: It's not a done deal.Erin: Yeah, someone's body can just be in that prediabetes range forever or um, either forever or they can go back to below the prediabetes range that it…by focusing on the blood glucose values, we're looking at a symptom and we're not really looking at what's going on underneath.And so it's, I find that less, less helpful for that reason.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. So I think what we're saying is that prediabetes is somewhat of a dubious diagnosis, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this too, but my sense is that like, giving that label can create a lot of shame and create stigma.It freaks people out, is my... experience of working with clients who their doctors have flagged that they have elevated blood sugar levels, let's say, and then….we know that stress and anxiety is not great for blood sugar management, so like, I mean, yeah, do you have anything to add to that? Like, what are your thoughts on that?Erin: That's exactly what I see in my practice and what I saw when I worked in a GP's office as well, that people are freaked out by either, either one of those labels and…yeah, stress and worry and anxiety and trauma. I think sometimes a diagnosis of prediabetes or type 2 diabetes can be a traumatic event, especially when it's not in the presence of someone caring and that you trust, or especially if you have a family history of diabetes where you've seen maybe some scary things, which I will – now that I said that – I will add that it's, that's not a, what's the word? That's not like a definite outcome either of those scary things. But it can be, yeah, it can be really stressful and that's the opposite of what is helpful for blood sugars.Laura: Yeah. Tell us a little about what the difference between a ‘prediabetes' diagnosis is versus a type 2 diabetes diagnosis? Is it just a difference of the level of sugar in the blood?Is it, is there a factor of time or like, is time factored into that? Like how long it's elevated for? Can you maybe speak to how, you know, you go from ‘prediabetes' as it were to type 2 diabetes?Erin: Yeah, that's a really good question. The way that I think about it is just in the diagnostic criteria, which is for a type 2 diabetes diagnosis, your blood sugar needs to get so high in the States, we usually diagnose it based on an A1c.So an A1c is usually what we use in the States to diagnose both prediabetes and type 2 diabetes. And here a type 2 diabetes is diagnosed at 6.5 and prediabetes is diagnosed at 5.7 up to 6.4. So ours is actually lower than yours in the UK and lower than Canada and lower than the rest of the world, basically.Laura: I feel like that's probably a really important and intentional thing, and we could probably go off on some conspiracy theories there. Erin: I have many. Yeah. Laura: Yeah, maybe it would be helpful to just briefly explain what HbA1c is, or A1c, and how it's measured and, like, what, what it's measuring. Erin: Yeah. A1c, I call it A1c, but you guys call it HbA1c. Should I say HbA1c?Laura: No, it's, it's fine. And I don't, I don't know why I call it that because I did my dietetics training in the US but I, I dunno, who knows, who knows?Erin: I've noticed everybody calls it something a little bit different.Laura: So, because I guess the HB refers to it being the hemoglobin is the hemoglobin one. But it's the same thing. A1c is easier, so let's just go with that. Erin: Okay, okay, cool. So A1c is a measurement of average glucose levels over the past two to three months. And the reason that it's average and two to three months is that as hemoglobin, so hemoglobin A1c is the full name of the lab value.As hemoglobin is part of our red blood cells, so in our veins and arteries, our red blood cells are floating around and glucose is also floating around. And so as glucose is bumping up against those red blood cells, it leaves a little bit of stickiness of glucose on the red blood cells. And then red blood cells live for 60 to 90 days, so that's 2 to 3 months.So then when they draw blood to check an A1C, they measure what percentage of the red blood cells are…kind of have this glucose levels on them or glucose on them. And then they can give us that A1C measurement in percentage form. So like 5.7 means... That according to the United States, we're classifying that as prediabetes and then 6.5 is type 2 diabetes. And the reason that we diagnose type 2 diabetes or all diabetes at a 6.5 is that long, long, long term research…or we followed, not we, I'm not part of it, the fancy researchers have followed thousands of people for decades and found that if blood sugar stays kind of in that 6.5 to 6.9 range, risk of those scary things like blindness or kidney disease or circulation problems is very, very, very, very, very, very low, basically the same as people without diabetes. So that's why we diagnose it at that, what I think of as like a pretty conservative level, because we want to keep people from experiencing those scary things.Laura: Absolutely. HbA1c is a sort of medium-ish term measurement of your average blood glucose levels, whereas if we were to just do a blood test randomly at any point in the day, there are like a bajillion different factors that could influence, you know, whether it's a high reading or a low reading, like how recently you ate, it can, you know, it can vary according to a whole bunch of different things.So a better way of measuring blood glucose is to look at that value over a slightly longer period of time and get that average, even though there are still some issues with looking at that number, but it's, it's a better number than, than just doing a random blood glucose test. So we've talked a little bit about insulin resistances, what prediabetes is and what type 2 diabetes is. There is this really pervasive myth that type 2 diabetes is caused by eating too much sugar. What do we know about that? Is that true?Erin: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.Laura: That was such a leading question, right?Erin: Is that true? Tell us! The way I think of that is that it's a real, just a misunderstanding of, of the complicated nature of type 2 diabetes – and when I say complicated, I mean, like referring back to those 11 different changes in the body that I mentioned earlier.Laura: Oh, so tell us about that because you, we said we were going to come back to this. What are the different changes?Erin: I can't even remember them all off the top of my head, but some of them are…the insulin resistance is one, the kidneys are responsible for filtering out our glucose when there's too much. And in type 2 diabetes, the kidneys start holding on to more glucose than we would want them to.Another is a decreased level of incretin hormones. So, GLP 1 is an incretin hormone. GIP is another incretin hormone, and those hormones are responsible for helping regulate glucose levels. And, and many people with type 2 diabetes and someone with prediabetes, they have a decreased level of those hormones.Laura: Okay, so I guess what, what you're saying here is that we often just focus on the changes to the pancreas and insulin, which is what I was asking you about before, but actually there are systemic changes that are going on throughout the whole body, right? Is that what we're saying? Erin: Yeah. Laura: Okay.Erin: Yeah. And those are absolutely not caused by eating, quote, too much sugar or eating sugar.Laura: Right, right, right, but because what we're dealing with is elevated blood glucose levels, the sort of obvious, or what people think of is the obvious pathway, as well…it's too much sugar in the diet, therefore your blood sugar level is too high. But what I'm hearing you say is it's just not as straightforward as that.Erin: Absolutely, yeah.Laura: Okay. Anything else that you wanted to add about, like, that particular myth, or?Erin: I wish I had more, like, definitive, like, it, that is not true because X, Y, Z, but you can't disprove a myth with research, you know what I mean?Laura: Yeah, yeah.Erin: Like, if somebody was like, yeah, unicorns exist, I'd be like, I don't know how to prove that to you. Because I can't show you, like, there is not a unicorn here.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I hear you. But I guess, like, what I would want people to take away from this and understand is that, like, you didn't cause your type 2 diabetes, like, you're not to blame. And, you know, similarly to how there are all different changes in the body that take place when somebody has type 2 diabetes, there are all sorts of factors that contribute to and help explain why somebody might develop type 2 diabetes. And they are everything from, you know, stress and sleep and things that, you know, often get called like lifestyle variables, even though that in and of itself is problematic, all the way through to experiencing racism, homophobia, transphobia, anti fat bias, you know, all of these like discrimination and prejudiceracism, homophobia, transphobia, anti fat bias, you know, all of these like discrimination and prejudice. Those things are also going to play a part in our blood glucose regulation, but we don't think of that. We don't think about the social determinants of health. We just think about like, well, you ate too many carbs. Therefore you need to cut out carbs. And this is the advice that people are given, we hear this idea that like carbohydrates cause, in inverted commas, type 2 diabetes, but we've…we also hear that it's caused by being a higher body weight.So, I'd love to hear you unpack that a little bit and, and kind of…yeah, is it a similar thing to what I just said about carbohydrates or is there anything else that you would add to that?Erin: So the thing that I go back to a lot with that, I guess, argument is that there's a really big difference between a correlation and a causation.So the example that I give with that is that as soon as ice cream sales go up, there's also an increase in shark attacks. Like, those things are correlated, but we can't say, we can't draw from that that correlation.Laura: Yeah, that ice cream causes shark attacks.Erin: Shark attacks, yeah. Right. And with that one, there's a really obvious, you know, third factor, which is weather, that contributes to both of those things going up, and it's not quite so clear with weight and, and type 2 diabetes.But there's one theory, which is that weight gain can be a symptom of type 2 diabetes. Another problem with that argument is that it really ignores just the natural body diversity that exists and occurs in the world. There are plenty, plenty of people in higher weight bodies who don't have diabetes and If it were true that higher weight causes type 2 diabetes, then all people in larger bodies would, would have type 2 diabetes, and that is...absolutely not true at all and the research shows thatLaura: And I guess the inverse is also true, right, that people who have a lower body weight, a lower BMI also get type 2 diabetes. And so it's, it's again, not looking at the, the correlation and drawing kind of the cause and effect conclusion, but also thinking about, okay, what other factors are going on that we're not seeing?And I think, to my mind, at least, it goes back to some of the things that I talked about before, some of the things that are, well, a lot of things that are outside of our control, like again, how we are treated in society, and how that, you know, that has been shown to like..even things like the Whitehall studies.Are you familiar with the Whitehall studies? Erin: No.Laura: So the Whitehall studies are kind of what I think Michael Marmot's work on the social determinants of health are based on, whereby they studied like civil servants who worked in Whitehall, which is like part of the government in the UK. And basically they stratified, I think it was mostly on men. Whitehall 1 was mostly done on men, because, of course, we need to know more about men, but this was, this was, these studies were done, done a while back and they have since added women. But effectively they stratified people by like their pay grade essentially, and they found that people who were in a lower pay grade, you know, they all worked in the same place. There was a lot of factors that were very similar about these men. But one of the key aspects was how much like autonomy they had in their job and what their income was. And they found that the people who hadl ess autonomy, so they were like a lower pay grade, basically, even though they had sort of overall similar working conditions, that the people in the lower pay grades had, I think, higher risk of cardiovascular disease compared to upper management and that kind of thing.And so it's a similar sort of effect here. And we also see it with like racism and anti-fat bias that there are all these structural things that contribute to our health in really, really complex ways. So I feel like that is a big part of what happens with type 2 diabetes that again, like kind of just seems to get overlooked by the keto bros.Hopefully some of that rambling made sense, but I'd like to maybe now think about...For anyone who has received this prediabetes diagnosis or a type 2 diabetes diagnosis, like, one of the first line pieces of advice that a GP or even a dietitian might give is around weight loss and around limiting carbohydrates in the diet.Where to start, really, Erin? Like, in terms of both of those. But basically, I would be interested to hear from you. Is that where you would start with someone? Or like, even putting it another way, are those helpful places to start? I mean, again, a leading question.Erin: The short answer is no, I do not find that to be a helpful place to start.You know, I'm really looking at this from the perspective of the population that I work with, who are people who have, who have restricted their eating many, many, many times throughout their life, or engaged in intentional weight loss many, many, many times in their life.Laura: Sorry, I just wanted to clarify as well for anyone who's like newer to the podcast that you say intentional weight loss and when you say that someone who has restricted their food for whatever, like, who has restricted their food, that doesn't necessarily mean someone who has an eating disorder, right? Like, like, what I'm trying to get at that people might not immediately realise is that that applies to people who have been chronic dieters, like people who have been dieting their whole life, right? That also kind of falls under that umbrella, right?Erin: Yeah, absolutely. And most people fall under that umbrella versus the, like, the full eating disorder umbrella. So yeah, it really applies to…most people who have been socialised as female, I would be so bold as to say that most, most people who have been socialised as female and many others have, have restricted their eating or dieted or gone on a lifestyle change, many, many times.And. So, because…I'm trying to think of how to say this without getting too into the weeds of, of, um, like clinical weeds…but because the body is hardwired against famine, what will happen if someone tries this again or says like, okay, I've been told to lose weight and restrict carbs or eat less carbs because I've had this diagnosis of prediabetes or type 2 diabetes, what will happen is things will look, quote, better for a little while. And so that's why, that's why the research shows like, oh, yeah, that's the thing that we need to do is because for 12 to 24 months, things are gonna get better. And when I say better, I mean, glucose levels will go lower.Laura: I was just gonna say because research in this area is generally done over like a fairly short term period where maybe If you're really, like, persistent, you can diet for that length of time, but yeah, so that's kind of, I guess what I'm trying to say is that over that shorter time frame, people, especially if they're given lots of support, like in a research study setting, might be able to continue with a restrictive diet for a bit longer, right? But then what happens?Erin: Yeah, but then the body…since the body's hardwired against famine, the body will start to engage in all of these compensatory mechanisms. Yeah. Basically like that, that carb restriction or yeah, any kind of caloric restriction, but especially carb restriction will kind of start the spring loading effect for the body to protect against that famine at all costs, which means that glucose levels will go up higher than they were before, and weight does the same thing, insulin level, same thing. So If we follow people longer than that 12 to 24 months, what we see is that these metabolic health markers are worse than they were at the beginning.Laura: Interesting. Yeah. So, I guess what, what you're saying is... And I see this in practice as well, is that people, yeah, in the shorter term, they might be able to restrict their eating, they may even lose a little bit of weight, or maybe even a lot of weight in some instances, and then in the short term, those biomarkers might seem as though they're improving.But then, because the body is, as you said, hardwired to, yeah, to protect itself, to move, like, protect itself against starvation, and the body can't really tell the difference between, you know, famine. And self imposed or medically imposed dieting and restriction, it eventually fights back against that in the form of like, it dials up cravings for these foods.It might also…like your metabolism, like all of that, those metabolic functions that we talked about right at the beginning, they start to slow down, which means that you start to maintain your weight or, or even put weight on. And what I see – and I'm, I'm curious if you see this as well – is that that degree of restriction that is often asked of people in these very low carb diets that sometimes get prescribed, certainly here in the UK on the NHS or that a lot that are sort of endorsed by a lot of diabetes organizations even, they cause people to fall into a binge restrict cycle. So rather than having kind of a more…moderate's not the right word, but like having a healthier relationship with food where you maybe are eating more regularly, but maybe in a way that feels more attuned to your body and also caring for yourself in all of these other ways that are really important. I don't want to just put that emphasis on food, but we're talking about food here. That what you end up happening is people restrict, restrict, restrict, but then they can't maintain that restriction forever. And so they end up in a blowout, right? Like where they're eating past the point of comfortable fullness, which can send their blood glucose levels sky fucking high, and I don't mean that in like a shaming way. I'm not blaming any individual person who has been caught in this cycle because it's not your fault. But just to illustrate like how kind of messed up that advice is that it can send people sort of, yeah, into this, this downward spiral of binge restrict, binge restrict.And I think what's kind of important to note here is that you could have someone who has what looks like on paper, perfect A1C, right? But they are binging and restricting, binging and restricting, and that the average blood glucose level over time looks like…you know, on paper, it looks great. But if you were to actually look at what was happening to that person and their relationship with food and how they were feeling, you might see a different picture.Erin: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a really good point. A really good point. And to add on to what you were saying about it not being someone's fault, that binge restrict cycle is, is a very predictable result of the exact recommendations that people are being given. People are being given these recommendations to restrict calories, restrict carbs, and that is…the most predictable outcome of that is weight gain, higher glucose, and that binge restrict cycle when we look at the long, in the long term.Laura: Yeah, and I think that there's, there's something kind of psychological that goes on here as well when we ask people to really focus on the minutiae of detail around carbohydrates, around what they're eating, that that in and of itself, like that mental restriction can create, like, what I call the fuck it effect, like, or, yeah, just even the threat of restriction and deprivation can kind of trip a switch for people who have had an experience or had a history of disordered eating or chronic dieting or, you know, even, even people who have just tried to maintain a quote, a healthy lifestyle or wellness lifestyle and it really lead to problems for them.So, Erin, for anyone who's listening to this, who is like, well, my doctor has told me to lose weight. My doctor has told me that I need to cut out carbs or my diabetes nurse or my dietitian. But you're telling me, and actually my lived experience is that that's not a great option for me. Where can people start? Like, or more specifically, like, where do you start with people who come to you with this exact?Erin: The first place I start is by repeating over and over that you did not cause your diabetes. This is absolutely not your fault. You did all the things right, quote, right. Like there's nothing that you could have done differently to make this different, to make this not happen. Because like you were saying, Laura, that's most of the, the biggest factors here are stress, trauma, marginalisation. Those, those are the biggest factors and you don't, those are things are completely out of – and genetics! I didn't, we haven't even mentioned…Laura: Yeah, there's the genetic thing too.Erin: So, I think that's really hard for people to believe because it's the opposite of what they've been told for so long. There's so much of like, if you don't blah blah blah, you're gonna get diabetes. And so I repeat that over and over, that you did not cause your diabetes, it's not your fault. And then the next thing that we talk about is actually eating enough. So making sure that you're nourishing your body enough. Mm hmm. There's a lot of, like, biochemical metabolic processes that we can talk about about the why behind that. But I think we've, we've talked a lot about that today so we can take our words for it. That eating enough is just really, really important.Laura: Yeah, I think there's something there about sort of, you know, if it's available to you, like doing some work maybe around figuring out what your hunger and fullness cues look like, feel like. Because, again, just purely anecdotally, I've noticed that people who are, you know, not so attuned to those signals might, you know, put off, not eat enough throughout the day, so that then it does leave them feeling a bit more vulnerable to bingeing or, you know, like eating in a way that that feels like out of control or chaotic.Not that eating has to be this like super controlled thing, but also just recognising how unsettling and disturbing it can feel, if it feels like you have no say in what's going on as well. So yeah, I love that that's kind of like your, your starting point is like, hold up, are you actually eating enough?Erin: Mm hmm. And I say this in, you know, in this blanket way, talking to you today, because way more often than not, I see that people are not eating enough. And people are shocked at like, wait, I eat that much?Laura: Yeah. And, and I just want to, like, underscore that point. Especially for my clients who are fat or in bigger bodies, plus size, whatever language you feel comfortable using there. When I've said to clients in bigger bodies before, like, I don't think you're eating enough. There is just like a…I don't know, like, just this complete disbelief because it's so counter to what they've always been told, which is like you're eating too much. So, yeah, I just wanted to like flag that as well that like this is not just a thin people thing. That's for everyone.Erin: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for highlighting that.Laura: Are there any other like, kind of like, I suppose what I'm thinking of is like low hanging fruit, like things that are like, maybe not easy for people, but like, that might feel more accessible. That's maybe the right word.Erin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it, you know, really, really depends on the person and their, their experiences with food and movement and the medical system and their body, but some other things that may or may not be low hanging fruit are finding a doctor or a, or a medical team that you really vibe with, or at least that you hate less, we can say, like that feels less terrible. Because one of the biggest, most helpful things you can do with any type of diabetes is monitoring. And when I say monitoring, that can be anything from, well, mostly that's just like checking in with your medical team like quarterly or a few times a year, depending on what's going on for you. And if, if you absolutely dread it, that's not going to happen, right? Like you're not going to be able to be monitored.So finding somewhere that is less terrible, or maybe even someone you vibe with is really important.Laura: Yeah. That's really good advice. And I'm just…I'm thinking about the pathways that we have here in the UK and as far as I know, and it will probably depend slightly on different NHS trusts, but as far as I know you get an annual diabetes review for type 2 diabetes and I'm just thinking like about that in relation to the point that you're making which is that, yeah, having that check in that support just…you know not necessarily like a full review but like just to, yeah, see how things are going and, and see like what you might need, like that might not be available to everyone, certainly in this country. And I'm sure it depends on things like insurance and stuff in other countries, but I guess what I'm learning is just how fucking atrocious a lot of medical…or like not atrocious, that's not what I mean. But like, how under-resourced a lot of medical systems are in terms of like giving people the things that would be most useful, which is again why we're like, here's a diet sheet off you go, and that's not helpful.Erin: Yeah. No. Yeah. Not helpful at all. Gosh, that's, that's so maddening. t's really easy for us here in the U. S. to be like, uh, everywhere else has it better with healthcare, but it's really grounding to hear that not everybody's figured it out.Laura: It's like, what, 13 years of a Tory government? So. It's not surprising that our healthcare system has been absolutely obliterated.And again, it will depend on the area that you're in as to how good that care is. And that's not a reflection on any, like, individual practitioner within that system. Like, we all know how hard they are working and how kind of up against it they are. But what I'm hearing you say, really, Erin, is that, like, the going in hard with, like, weight loss and restricting carbohydrates, that is probably counterproductive to the overall aim of, like, caring for yourself, and that there are some other things that we can, like, think about and incorporate that might…Okay, they're maybe not such a like, go hard or go home approach, but that maybe they're more sustainable. Maybe they're like, kinder and gentler. And I think that reminds me of something that I will say to people if they come to me and they're like, you know, my doctor has flagged this, I'm feeling really stressed is…this is not an emergency. Right, like this is your arm is not hanging off or whatever it is. We can take a beat. And if there's other stuff that you just need to like, get a handle on, like life stuff or whatever it is, like, maybe this isn't your top top priority right now. Like, what are some like, small things that we can do to help you feel like you're caring for yourself or are being cared for that don't sort of, are maybe not going like full throttle, like, you know, what the common narrative is that we should be like cutting out carbs and losing all of this weight. But what are maybe some like softer things that we can start with? Yeah. Oh, well, Erin, thank you so much. This has been really helpful. And I know that you have a ton of resources on your website, on your Instagram that people can dig into. And I'll link to all of that in, in the show notes. I also want to mention that a while back at LCIE, we produced a guide, a weight inclusive guide to insulin resistance, and it has some more information about things like medication, supplementation, and again, some of those like lower hanging fruit things that might be helpful if this is something you're navigating and it has, you know, information about what we talked about today, Erin, the lock and key thing and like the how ‘prediabetes' is a dubious diagnosis. So I'll also link to that for anyone who's interested in the show notes. Okay, Erin, before I let you go, At the end of every episode, my guest and I share what they've been snacking on. So it can be anything, you know, a show, a podcast, a literal snack, whatever it is. I'd love to hear what recommendation you have for the listeners.Erin: Can I share a couple? Laura: Of course! Yeah. Erin: Okay, cool. Well, I'm literally snacking on all things peanut butter, which I don't know if you guys like peanut butter, but I. Just had some peanut butter pretzels again recently and I was like, gosh… Laura: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, are they the Trader Joe's ones? Erin: Yes. Laura: Okay. So last Christmas, my brother sent me like a huge ass box of stuff 'cause he lives in Oklahoma. From Trader Joe's. And it had those peanut butter pretzels in them and I hadn't had them before. And we don't have good snacks here. I'm just gonna say like the snack game in the States is just like…it's so much better than it is here, but I know those pretzels and they're so good. They're so good, yeah.We're gonna do a, like a snack box exchange again this year. So I sent him like, he loves chocolate, so I sent him like a ton of like Dairy Milk and like chocolates from... the UK and he sends me stuff from the US. So like, that's, that's fun. But I'm going to add them to the list because they are so good.Erin: They are so good. And you can, if you're in the States, you can also get them at Costco. Very similar ones.Laura: Okay.Erin: In bulk. Yeah. Big ol thing. So that's what I'm snacking on. My other thing is the podcast Normal Gossip.Laura: Oh yeah! I have heard a couple of episodes of that. And like, for anyone who hasn't heard it, can you explain the premise?Erin: Yeah, they get a story sent in from someone, like a true story, and then they share the story, like they're gossiping with a guest on, and they'll pause a lot in the story where they're like, okay, so this is what's going on, what would you do next? And so there's a little bit of like, choose your own adventure that I think is really fun.And then it's just so silly, but it's really nice to like, have some silliness.Laura: Oh, 100%. In the mess of everything. Do you have, like, a favourite episode that you would... Is there like a standout?Erin: Well, I just listened to one that was a live episode that I think it was like the plant story or something like that.And it was fun because they had a guest where they would ask them what they'd do. And then they'd have people raise their hands if they like absolutely disagreed in the audience. And then. So you just got a lot…there was even more choose your own adventure.Laura: There's like, yeah, more back and forth. Okay. Yeah. Like the plant story. I'm going to get you to send me the link and I will include it in the show notes because yeah, I am deep down a research rabbit hole at the moment looking at folic acid and folate and I'm like digesting all this biochemistry and I find that that happens a lot that I listen to a lot of like podcasts that are related to my work in some way and I forget the podcast can be fun.Erin: Uh huh!Laura: Yeah, I need to get back into that. All right, real quick, mine. So this is just like a fun, festive thing that I came across the other day, which I was looking for some new shoes and I came across gold sparkly converse high tops. Erin: Oh my God. Laura: And they are so cool. So I bought a pair. I don't know if I'm going to…they haven't arrived yet. I'm gonna try them on, but I feel like gold is a neutral, right? Like, it will go with everything.Erin: Oh, that's true. When I first heard you said neutral, I was like, are they? Is gold neutral? But it does go with anything.Laura: Yeah, so I'm gonna try them on, see what they're like, but I will, I will include a link in the show notes because, yeah, from the picture, I haven't seen them in real life yet, but from the picture, they don't look like they're too over the top and I feel like…if you know if like depending on what you're wearing like you probably get away with them at the playground, right?Erin: Totally. Totally. Laura: This is what I'm telling myself anyway. I kind of text them to all of my friends. I was like, what do you think of this? And there was like a lukewarm reception, but I think, I think I need new friends is really…with better taste is what, is kind of where I've come down on it! Maybe I'll put them on my Instagram stories and see what people think. Erin: There you go. Laura: All right, Erin. This was…uh, I was gonna say this was really fun, that little bit at the end was really fun. Like, all the bullshit around weight loss and low carb diets, not so fun, but I'm glad that we got to unpack, unpack that a little bit.For anyone who wants to dig into your work and your resources a little bit more, where can they find you and more about your work?Erin: My website is a good place. I have some free resources there and I try to update my blog with some kind of my push, my pushing back beliefs on kind of diabetes diet culture. And that is ErinPhillips.com. No, erinphillipsnutrition.com. Laura: Should we fact check your website?! Erin: I tried to buy erinphillips.com, but it wasn't available. So, erinphillipsnutrition.com. And then my Instagram, I think it's @ErinPhillipsNutrition.Laura: Okay, well we…just make sure you click on the link in the show notes because Erin's not a reliable resource on her own social media! So we'll make sure people get there in the end.All right, thank you so much, I really appreciate it Erin. Erin: Yeah, thank you, Laura. Thanks so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today.  Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI this week: Gift Concierge + Mini Gift Guide* Fundamentals: Helping Kids build a Good Relationship with Sugar* Here's Why You Might Want to Pass On Getting Your Kid Weighed in School* The One-upMUMship of Kid Food Instagram This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast. I have been so excited to share this week's episode with you. Our guest today is Kirstie Beaven from Sonshine magazine - a publication dedicated to raising boys for a more equal world. Kirstie and I talk about how seemingly innocuous things like dinosaur t-shirts and shark pants send a message to our kids about who they can and can't be, how they should expect to be treated, and how they should treat others. Kirstie gives us a fascinating history lesson on how kids' clothes became gendered (spoiler, colonialism and capitalism have a lot to do with it) and why these have massive repercussions for gender equality. We also talk about why Kirstie is low-key obsessed with pants (the underwear kind), and why we can't just empower girls in a vacuum; we also need to be teaching boys emotional literacy and allowing them to have an identity outside of the ‘big boy', or the sporty one. Just a heads up that we talk about some distressing statistics around sexual harassment, suicide, and violence towards women and girls, but not in explicit detail.This is without a doubt one of my favourite episodes we've done on the CIHAS pod - if you've never listened before then this is a great place to start, even if you don't have kids. Don't forget to leave a review in your podcast player if you enjoy this episode - or let me know what you think in the comments below. Find out more about Kirstie's work here.Follow her on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTROKirstie: That's one of the things I really want to do, is just gently point out the things that we take for granted that we say are normal or natural, but they're not. They're totally constructed. Many of the things that we just take for…oh yeah, pink and blue. Pink is a girls' colour, blue is a boys' colour. We think of that as completely normal and it's totally made up and it's so recent.Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today I'm talking to Kirstie Beavan.Kirstie is the founder and editor of Sonshine Magazine, raising boys for a more equal world. Sonshine is a print and digital quarterly, as well as a social profile for parents who want to change the way we talk to and about our sons, to create a better society for all children.I've been so excited to share this episode. We recorded it a while back and I'm really glad that you're able to finally listen to it. It's such a great discussion about gender inequality and why seemingly innocuous things like how we dress our kids have really long term implications for their emotional development and the roles that they learn to occupy in society. Kirstie is a wealth of knowledge about the gendered history of kids clothing, which you won't be surprised to hear is entirely rooted in capitalism, rather than any real biological or physical differences between sexes. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation, and if you don't already, you need to get your hands on a copy of Sonshine Magazine, which is available in print and digitally. I'll link to it in the show notes so you can order yours. It would make a really lovely holiday gift for your co-parent or some other parents that you have in your life, maybe even for yourself. But before we get to today's episode, I'd love to tell you all about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter. And of course there are cool perks like being able to comment on posts, our Thursday threads, Snacky Bits, and exclusive posts on intuitive eating, weight inclusive health, and responsive feeding. But more than all of that, being reader and listener supported means I can better control who comes into this space. In other words, we can keep the trolls and the fatphobes out. And if they do sneak in, at least they've had to pay for the privilege, and I can still boot them out. Having control over who comes into the space is essential for creating a safe, nurturing space away from diet culture where we can discuss difficult topics like how we deal with diet-y friends, gender division of labour, and body shame. All the way through to more light hearted stuff like the weird shit that mummy influencers say. If you're still not convinced, then here's a recent testimonial from someone in the CIHAS community. So they wrote: “I wish I had access to the advice and information you share when my kids were little, but it's still valuable now that they're nearly adults for a couple of reasons at least. Firstly, having only been diagnosed as autistic in middle age, I have had a complicated relationship with food for most of my life. From childhood fussy eating, through stigma over my higher body weight and internalised fat phobia, to temporary success with dieting, followed by the inevitable return to my previous size. Your writing has helped me cast off many of my own hang ups about food, weight, and health, making me a better role model for my kids. Secondly, your advice helps me to support and advise my kids with their own food, health, and body image issues, and to advocate for them to family and friends. I believe in showing my appreciation for people who provide me with help and support, at least by saying thank you, and where possible, with feedback and or financially. I can't financially support everyone I'd like to all of the time. But I do what I can when I can. Thank you for all you do Laura.”So what are you waiting for? You can sign up today at laurathomas.substack.com or find the link in your show notes. It's £5 a month or £5 for the year and if you can't stretch that right now just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with the word “Snacks” in the subject line and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription. No questions asked. You can also gift a subscription to a friend for the holidays to give them unfettered access to the CIHAS community. I can even send you a gift certificate. Just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and we'll hook you up.  Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.All right team, let's get to today's conversation with Kirstie Beavan from Sonshine Magazine. MAIN EPISODEAll right, Kirstie, to start with, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?Kirstie: I'm Kirstie and I run Sonshine Magazine, which is a quarterly print and digital magazine and a social profile and community looking at raising.Laura: You said that with sort of like eyes rolled so we'll come back to that!Kirstie: I'm looking at raising boys for a more equal world so specifically it's parenting, thinking about parenting through the lens really of how we talk to and about our boys.Laura: Okay, and I'm curious to know, like, where this interest in gender equality comes from and like what spurred you to start a magazine about it?Kirstie: I think…so I've got two children and when my daughter was born, I think I felt more confident about how I was going to break down gender stereotypes for…I felt like, you know, I grew up in the 80s and 90s, which is a time of real flux in terms of how women were portrayed and expected to behave. It's a real…there's lots of progress and lots of backlash. And I think I felt – by the time I had my first child who happened to be a daughter – I felt quite confident about the things that I wasn't going to do and the stereotypes that I wasn't going to inflict on her and how I was going to help her navigate the world that I had already grown into womanhood through. And then two years later I had my son and I started to see that there were a lot of negative stereotypes associated with raising boys. And I felt like I had absolutely no model for managing that as a mother, not as a father, obviously. I just felt like, Oh, this is something I hadn't really considered or thought about. So I went to look for…where are the resources to help me parent a boy who I want to be able to grow up in a way that's free of the strictures of sort of gender stereotyping, but also who is going to be what we might now call a good man? You know, where are the resources for that? And I couldn't find any.Laura: Right. There wasn't a playbook.Kirstie: No, there's really few and far between. There weren't websites talking about it at the time. There weren't Facebook groups dedicated to this. There wasn't something that sort of scratched the itch that I had.And I had been working in content. I work mainly in the museums and gallery sector, working on the stuff that you see on the walls when you go into a gallery, like labels. Laura: I always wondered who wrote that stuff!Kirstie: Yeah, it was me. So that sort of stuff. So like presenting information for a general audience, that's been my job for a long time.So I was like, well, I'm a writer. I'm going to write one. I'm going to write the things that people needed, or that I needed really. And that's how I started.Laura: So you found that there weren't the resources that you as a new parent to a boy needed to help you navigate parenting that child in, so that they didn't grow up to be an asshole, basically. I think?Kirstie: Yes, exactly. I mean, yeah, partly that, but also partly because I noticed a lot of things about how my children interacted. Having an elder daughter and a younger son, I mean, I think it's the same if you…for many children, if you have an older sibling and a younger sibling quite close in age, that the younger one, is desperate to do all the things that the older ones do.So they're like, because, and I get it, like there's this person who's so close to you, but they're just better at everything than you are. So you're like, I just want to be them. Like that looks so good. And so she was like the leader. She was, you know, he was following her around, wanted to be just like her, wanted to wear her clothes, do the things that she liked doing, all of this stuff.And I sort of came to realise that I was really happy with this idea of my daughter. breaking stereotypes. I was really confident with this, like, Oh yeah, she's, you know…dress her in blues and darks and comfy clothes and all of that sort of stuff. And that seemed…that sat very easily with me. But when my son is saying, well, I actually want to wear a pink tutu, yeah, a dress and we're going to the shops. And I'm actually feeling a bit uncomfortable about that. Oh right, why am I feeling uncomfortable? I'm not uncomfortable about my daughter wearing trousers. I'm uncomfortable about my son wearing a dress. What is it in me? Because there's no problem for either of them. What is it in me that is the problem here?And having to confront that I have a problem with boys doing things that are feminine or coded as feminine. And what does that mean about how I feel about things being girly? Basically made me feel like, actually, that's not okay. That is something that I need to think about because the message I give to both my son and my daughter, if I don't want someone to be girly is because I think being girly is not aspirational because I think being a girl is not enough.So that is something that I felt like, Oh, that's work I have to do. That's work I have to unpick. And I'm the sort of person who likes information to unpick that stuff. And so there just wasn't that information out there to help me with that.  Laura:Yeah, that's so interesting that you, I guess, noticed that tension in yourself, because you're absolutely right.There's social acceptance of, for want of a better phrase, maybe like ‘tomboyishness', where girls can, you know, have names that are traditionally masculine names and they can wear trousers and they can climb trees and that's all very well, but we don't have the same leniency for boys who want to do things that are perceived as being ‘more feminine'.And I have the same thing. I have a three year old boy, you know, assigned male at birth, but you know, we try, we like…we let him wear the tutu to the shop and it is, there is a discomfort that I've noticed in myself that I have to work through and kind of push through and I just haven't gone to the lengths of creating an entire magazine about it!But I, I'm really impressed that you have to kind of work through your shit. You made a whole magazine about it. But I'm curious, like, why a magazine and not, say, a podcast or, you know, and I know you do a lot of stuff on social media, which we can also talk about, but why did that feel like the medium for you?Kirstie: I think it's partly because of the way my brain works. So I prefer to organize things. In a way where I, I'm thematically grouping things.Laura: Okay, yes. I just... I get that instinct very much.Kirstie: I just wanted it to feel like, I didn't want to write a diary, I didn't want to write a straight up blog. And I wanted it to be written content, that's where I feel most confident expressing my ideas.But I didn't want to share too much actually about my children. Because, because... My experience as a parent is my experience, but their experience of being a child is their experience and that felt like that's…their private. It's not for me to talk about that for them. Laura: Right. You don't want to commodify your child, you know, to make money and capital.Kirstie: That's not for me. That's not for me. And I didn't want to feel like I was sharing their lives without their permission, but also telling a story about their lives, which maybe isn't the story that they would tell later on. Yeah. So I wanted to sort of use what I'd noticed in my own experience of parenting to give me a jumping off point to think about lots of other things.And so it made sense to me to work it like a magazine. I started online. So I would publish a series of articles grouped around a theme: clothes, books, screen time, whatever it is. You know, looking at these things, but through this idea of what have I noticed in this space about gender stereotyping and the constraints placed on children time after time, but through lots of different themes.Laura: Yeah. So it becomes a lens to explore a particular topic.Kirstie: Exactly. And the magazine lends itself to that. So each magazine now has a theme and I collate articles around that theme. Yeah. But all with that thread that runs through them, thinking about how you might just. poke at the things that we take for granted.I think that's one of the things I really want to do is just gently point out the things that we take for granted that we say are normal or natural, but they're not. They're totally constructed. Many of the things that we just take for…oh yeah, pink and blue. Pink is a girl's colour. Blue is a boy's colour. We think of that as completely normal and it's totally made up and it's so recent that that has come into being.Laura: Oh, really? Do you know the history of that?Kirstie: Yeah, so basically up until the sort of 1800s, a bit later, all children are wearing white because...Laura: Why? That's, that's a terrible idea!Kirstie: Well, I guess it was probably grey, right? Laura: Yeah. Kirstie: But they're basically wearing stuff they can wash easily. You can produce it and wash it easily. So they're wearing simple, plain colours, stuff you can pass down. All children are wearing dresses until seven, five to seven.Laura: It sounds like it's really, like, utilitarian, right? Like is that the right word? Kirstie: Yes. Yes. It is a bit. So there's this idea that children's clothing is, well, there's lots of things at play and I'm not a fashion historian.Laura: For the purposes of this podcast, you are.Kirstie: So children are wearing clothes that can be washed easily, that are good for toilet training. They're good for, you know, being out and about, right? There is a movement to make children's clothes less constrictive. Particularly for boys, and that's sort of in the 1800s and French ideas around children should be allowed to be outside more and, you know, changing parenting ideals. What happens is that there's a boom in fabric production, which is obviously based on plantations of cotton and exploitation of enslaved people. It's also based on the industrial revolution in places like the UK, which means that using child labour and industrial processes. Cotton can be produced on a huge scale. So there's a lot of exploitation that goes into mass producing fabrics. And then simultaneously there's a movement in chemical production of pigments. So you can start to make colours for clothes. And once you can mass produce fabrics and you can actually cheaply produce colours, for clothes, for the fabric to make clothes on, you know, you can have a boom in fashion for men, for women, and also for children, kids. There's a sort of like, Oh, actually. As a marketer, you know, as a producer of cloth, I want to sell more of this stuff. So as a marketer, what tools have I got at my disposal for that? So one of the things is, you don't want people to hand clothes down. So you don't want people to pass clothes just down and down and down. You want to make them so that they can't be passed on and they have to buy a whole new outfit every time their child grows. So it's building consumption into the processes. And so you come up with reasons for people to buy different things. So by the 1930s, 1940s, people are sort of thinking, Oh, how can we sell more of this stuff? So by the 1940s, there were catalogues going round the department stores and stuff like that saying, ‘these are the clothes that you should buy', ‘this is our new season,' ‘this is what everyone is wearing this season'. And it's the same for children's clothes. And they're looking at ways at dividing the children's clothes market by colour. So some of the catalogues produced around that time are saying pink is for brown eyed infants, because that's better for their complexion. And blue, you know…so all of these like weird things, but pinks and blues, but the idea was: pastels were the best ones for the children. And then someone comes up with it…there's a, I forget what it's called, but you can find a pamphlet, if someone comes up with the idea that pink should be for the girls and blue should be for the boys, though you can find other ones, other catalogues and fashion plates that suggest that pink is a stronger colour because it's associated with the red coats that men would have worn in battle, blah, blah, blah, that that should have been the colour for boys. Just made up, basically. Just all made up. Pink and blue is all made up. But it's stuck. And it's stuck with us. And pink got cemented as a feminine colour. By…now I don't want to get it wrong, but I'm going to say Mamie Eisenhower, who was the first lady in the 1940s, and she redecorated the White House and with all these special pink bathrooms and was her favorite colour. And it became sort of cemented, this idea of baby pink as being really feminine, definitely coded girly colour. And ties in with lots of other ideas around femininity that come in through the 1950s.Laura: Yeah, well, you may not be a fashion historian, but I really enjoyed that little foray into understanding, yeah, the, I mean, just the super problematic history that that what we feel is so ‘normal', was built on.Like, you didn't have to scratch the surface, barely at all, to find the colonialism, the violence, the capitalism, like, the effects of all of these things on. Yeah, how we end up ultimately dressing our kids today and what is coded as feminine, what is coded as masculine…and yeah, I remember when, when Avery was born just me and my husband like eye rolling anytime we got a blue card in the post, you know, like there was just like a sea of blue and we really appreciated our friends who'd like, who knew us really well and went out of the way to, to find a card that wasn't blue.And that's just, that's just such a small, like, meaningless thing in the grand scheme of things, like the colour of your baby card, but you know, there are repercussions to how we dress kids and I think this is something that you talk about so well, not just in terms of like the colour of the clothes – although that I think is, is important as well – but also just like the practicalities of dressing our kids. Maybe practicality isn't the right word, but I guess the functionality of how we dress our kids. And I think you've kind of got a bit of a reputation on Instagram for being the ‘pants lady'.So I'd love you to talk a little bit about that, like what your research has found when it comes to, not just pants, but just generally the discrepancies between clothing for girls and clothing for boys.Kirstie: Yeah. I mean, it's a dubious claim to fame, isn't it? The ‘pants lady'.Laura: I would take it. It's a great moniker to have.Kirstie: I mean, that is…some of the stuff that I've talked about is, that's one of the key things, I think, because people really notice it. It started because my daughter asked for a pair of pants with dinosaurs on them. And this is when we were potty training and I thought, great, dinosaurs, that should be easy. And then she'll want to wear them. And then potty training would be much easier. Yeah. And I went looking for them and I couldn't find any girls pants that had dinosaurs on them. Laura: It doesn't surprise me, but… Kirstie: No, I mean it is a bit better now. This is eight, nine years ago. Yeah, so I couldn't find any, and then I found some boys ones and I thought, oh, well she doesn't know.And then I got them home and I was so shocked to get them out of the packet and find that they were bigger, roomier. They were beautifully…they had these incredible overlocked seams, all the elastic was covered. I noticed that they were about, they were two centimeters bigger in the waistband, basically, than the girls pants, same brand, and were made of a thicker, higher grade cotton. They just were better. They just were loads better. And so I thought, well, maybe that's just the, this is just an anomaly that I've picked up. Because you know, often when you go to a shop, you can pick up two things that are the same size, but actually when you try them on, they're not quite the same. They're different. So there's all of that. So I thought, well, maybe this is it. But actually having looked into it now over the last eight years, that is across the board that the girls' pants in particular are cut to a smaller pattern than the boys pants, and they're made with flimsier fabric. They're more badly made. They're itchy. They've got this lacy trim. They're made with a lighter weight cotton, which has less stretch and give. They're cut shorter in the backside, so they don't come up as high. So this is comparing girls briefs with boys briefs. They have a narrower gusset. So they're more likely to ride up your backside, basically, give you a wedgie.Laura: Ah, is that why that happens? Because of the size of the...Kirstie: Yes, because of how it's cut across the bottom.Laura: Yeah, yeah. No, I can, I can imagine it. As someone who has, like, a lot of problems finding... Like decent underwear. Yeah, like don't get me started on how far downhill M&S underwear has gone over the past few years.Kirstie: Totally agree.Laura: But yeah, I guess I just, I hadn't thought of it…because that was going to be my next question for you was like, so what, right? What's the big deal here? And I think you've already kind of answered it, but it looks like you've got more to say, so…Kirstie: Yeah, I have got more to say. Because the big deal, actually, what it made me realise is that a significant proportion of our children are going to school wearing an uncomfortable piece of underwear. So many people, when I post about this on Instagram, so many people say to me, ‘Oh, my daughter is always getting a wedgie'. ‘My daughter is always complaining that her pants are uncomfortable'.I find it myself, I find the seams and labels inside clothing can be really irritating. Yeah. Giving this advice to oh, just wear them inside out, blah, blah, blah. No! Just let's make..Laura: Buy the boys ones, Kirstie: Kids deserve to be comfortable and it made me think how different my life would have been if I had been wearing clothes that were comfortable, if I'd been wearing clothes that weren't for looking at but were for playing in.It's not just pants actually, it comes across all areas of children's clothing. So you see it in girls' trousers versus boys' trousers. You're more likely to find a knee reinforcement in a boy's trouser than you are in a girl's trouser because the expectation is that boys are harder on their trousers than girls.Well, yeah, I mean, obviously you are if your pants aren't riding up your bum all the time. And also, if your shoes…so if you look at the difference between girls' shoes and boys' shoes, you'll see that boy's shoes tend to have a thicker sole. They tend to be waterproof. They tend to be made with a toe cover so that you can climb or run more easily.And if you look at girls' shoes, particularly noticeable in very, very little toddler shoes and school shoes. You'll see that the girl's shoes come with really thin soles, no grip. They often have holes in the top, so they're not really waterproof. They're often made of patent leather, so they're shiny, so they…you can't scuff them up. I mean, you will scuff them up and then you'll be in trouble. So what is what you say? So what? The thing is, it's all based on our expectations of children, our expectations as adults on children. It's nothing to do with whether they, as individuals…what they like doing. You know, if you've got a child that likes running, they like running. It's not whether they're a boy or a girl, it's whether they like running. If you've got a kid that feels more regulated, if they've climbed something and swung on something, it's not because they're a boy or a girl, it's just who they are. That's what their bodies are asking for. But we are channeling them societally down these routes, down these expected routes of you should be more active and you shouldn't be more active just simply based on your genitalia. And it does actually have impact on children. You can see it if you go to any primary school, you can see who's taking up the space in the playground and it is 90% likely to be the boys.Laura: And that wasn't a…in case it came across this way, it wasn't an accusatory…it was meant to be a provocative question because I am 100% with you on this.And I think you articulated it so beautifully when you said, you know, we're setting a precedent, we're setting an expectation that girls clothes are to be looked at and are there to be pretty, whereas boys clothes are designed to be functional and for movement and yeah, to let them really be…engage in a full variety of experiences that we're inadvertently excluding girls from, right?Movement, getting messy, getting scuffed up, getting dirty, whatever, whatever it is.Kirstie: Yeah, it's two sides of the same coin, actually, because you see it with girls that the expectation is that their clothes will be pretty and good to look at. And I particularly don't want to have…in my children's underwear, I particularly don't want to have my daughter thinking that her underwear needs to be good to look at, right? It's gross.Laura: It's a really disturbing thought when you, like, think about the kind of the implications there.Kirstie: Yeah, yeah. It's actually like, what in the world? Children's underwear should just be functional. It should cover up their genitalia.Laura: Maybe it should have days of the week on it. It could, yeah, I'm up for that.Kirstie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm up for that. I'm up for patterns. I'm up for that. I'm up for, like, things on the front so you know which side to get into. Yeah, that's all of that. But it doesn't need to be cut small. It doesn't need to be low rise. It doesn't need to be... skimpy in the gusset. Like none of that is necessary for children's clothing. Laura: It needs to be functional. Kirstie: It needs to, it just needs to do its job. Yeah. And I…and you could even argue that the people most likely to be wearing a skirt are girls. So the children who really need the big pants are the girls. So why is it, when I go to the shops, that the girl's pants are miniscule? Laura: Well I wonder if it goes back to capitalism, because if you've got skimpy pants…you know I'm thinking of this from the perspective of a marketer, if I've got skimpy pants, then I can also sell a pair of shorts to go under the dress. Yeah. This is the only explanation that I could come up with.Kirstie: I mean I have been and interviewed some people who've worked in childrenswear, and a lot of them were like….Oh. We've never thought of this because childrenswear is not a thing conceived of in many big shops. It's not conceived of as childrenswear. It's conceived of as girls and boys and they take their cues from womenswear and menswear. And so they're taking maybe what is the best selling hoodie, jersey weight in the menswear and then they're scaling that down for the boys. And then they're taking what is the best selling hoodie weight, say we're talking about sweaters, jersey for the women's and scaling that down for the girls.And they're not talking to each other necessarily. So it's a sort of vicious circle or a chicken and egg thing where menswear is generally heavier weight and more comfortable and womenswear is generally lighter weight and less comfortable. And the styles from menswear are going to come down into boyswear and the styles from womenswear....And that's the same for underwear. So when you look at women's underwear, that's actually what's going to be started to scale down. Lace trims, bows, the types of patterns that you'll see, crop tops, that sort of stuff is going to be scaled down for the girls underwear. And men's underwear is going to be scaled down for the boys. And I see that, but the fact is that children's bodies are not like men's and women's bodies.That is not... Clothes for children can be clothes for children. Until, really, a long way through their childhood. There's no reason to be making them different. Often when I post about this, and I say, here's a pair of jeans and the jeans for the boys, jeans in the boys' section, maybe are two inches bigger in the waist than the girls. And maybe they are…they've got more flex in the leg, and maybe they're also an inch or two longer in the leg than the girls. It's particularly noticeable in shorts, so when summer comes around, you'll see that the girls' shorts are tiny. And that starts from toddler age, so the toddler girls' shorts, which are often really nice, like they come in nice colours and nice prints and all of that sort of stuff, but they are cut inches shorter.Laura: They're teeny tiny. I remember you posted a reel about this over the summer and I'll link to it in the show notes because yeah, it's…yeah, you're basically dressing toddlers in hot pants.Kirstie: Yeah. The flip of the coin is that if you go into the boys section often you can only find things that are khaki, navy, black, burgundy, what I call sludge. Like you just get sludge colour, so you can't find the pretty prints or the…you can't find florals or butterflies or rabbits. My son loves rabbit, love rabbits for years and it's rabbits and cats…you can't have a rabbit if you're a boy. Because you can only have a shark. And then you think, oh, it's fine. I'll go and buy the rabbit top. It's in the girl's section. What does it matter? And then you get the rabbit top and it's cropped or it's got a cap sleeve or a boat neck, you know, so it's not so sun safe. It's not so easy. You know, it doesn't wash as well. It's very easy, I think, to say, this is obviously bad for girls. This is obviously bad for girls. It's obviously bad to create children's clothes that make girls feel that they are too big for their age. That is obviously bad. I can't see why we are doing this. I've had messages from people who've got boy girl twins who are the same size and if they buy a pair of joggers in the boys' section, so two pairs of joggers in the boys' section, they're enormous in the waist, age five to six. And if they go to the girls section and buy the similar joggers. They can't pull them up and these children are the same age and the same size and what does it do to you if by the time you're old enough to understand it, say you're seven, you can see the labels in your own clothes. What does it do to you to know that the age seven jeans are too tight for you? What does that do to you as a girl? What does it conversely do to you as a boy, if you're a slim boy? And you buy the age seven joggers and they're like a tent on you. And the expectation is that you ought to be bigger and you ought to be broader and you ought to be wider or taller. The expectations that this places on our children based only on their gender, you don't have to follow it very far to see how harmful it is.Laura: Yeah. I mean, there's so much to unpack there as well. Like I'm thinking of it through my lens as well, which is thinking about body image and these pretty arbitrary sizes do to kids' sort of body esteem, if they are, you know, maybe at the lower end of the growth curve or the higher end of the growth curve and they don't fit into that seven to eight, like maybe they're in 10 to 11 and the like the mismatch, I think, between ages and sizes of clothes. And I don't know what the workaround is, it's, it seems kind of like it's all wound up in this, it's a similar problem, right?Kirstie: I think so. I think so. I mean, I think the workaround is what they do in a lot of European countries is…it's not, it's not done by age. It's done by height.Laura: Oh, height. Okay. Yeah.Kirstie: It's a measurement. And I think it's really telling, that if you ask a man what size he is, he'll give you a measurement. Yeah. So if you want to buy a pair of jeans as a man, you're buying a size, an actual size.Laura: X centimetres or inches.Kirstie: 32 inch waist, whatever it is, right? That's a measurement. And if you know what your measurement is, you can buy the right size. But as women, you ask what size we are, we have to give a random number. It doesn't equate to any measurement. Except to make you feel bad. And I think that sort of permeates the landscape of children's clothing.This idea of functionality, that actually clothes are made for comfort and what they can do for you. And what they…they'll just be made to whatever size that you need. That your clothes actually…comfort is the least important thing on the list for women's clothes, often. I mean, I feel like underwear in particular.I'm starting to enter into the preteen world. Yeah. It's really made me question a lot of things. Like this idea that when I was a kid, I guess I was 12, 11 or 12, and we went to get a training bra. And I thought about this… training bra? I thought, what's it being trained for? And I thought I was being trained because bras are really uncomfortable.So to get you used to wearing a thing makes your body more palatable to society's view of what women's bodies should look like. It's not on my horizon yet, but it's something that I've got to have a thought aboout. Laura: How do you have that conversation? Kirstie: Yeah, I don't actually know how I feel about that.Laura: Yeah, I mean, that's a really tricky one.I don't know. I don't know if I've added an unanswerable question to that. Yeah, no, but it is, it's, it's just not something that I've ever given any consideration to. And I think what feels probably really sticky about it is that, you know, you can have these conversations with your kid about, you know, whatever, like some man invented a bra to make our bodies more palatable.I don't actually know if it was a man. I'm making this up, but you probably do know the history of bras as well. I think I read, I read like a really interesting article about it once before, and I, and I really can't remember now, but the list of questions that I was going to ask you is completely gone out of the window. But no, it's great. But yeah, you know, you can have these conversations and you can, like, help your kid feel really empowered to not wear a bra or to wear a bra or to like make their own choice or, you know, about the type of bra that they wear if they choose to wear one. And, but then, you know, they go to school and all their friends are wearing, you know, these cutesy little training bras that probably actually do nothing. Yeah. Really. And so then you have to navigate, like, the social piece, with lining that up with, with your values and their values and it's their body. They ultimately…I think probably what we want to promote in our kids is body autonomy. Also that totally backfired on me the other day when my three year old was like, ‘I'm the boss of my body!' when he didn't want to get in the bath. Yeah, I mean, this is... I wasn't prepared for that. But, like, in general, you know, like, it backfires a lot when they're three and they don't want to get in the bath, but hopefully by the time they're, you know, 11, 12, and they're thinking about training bras, maybe a bit younger than that, even, that they...have a better sense of what their boundaries are around their bodies?Kirstie: Yes, I think so. I think they do. But I think there is, I think also the, the influence of peer pressure becomes so much greater then like…actually, you see that you see your influence declines as a parent, you know, you can lay them foundations, but they're coming to the point where what their peers are doing and thinking is really important.And they actually are going to have to navigate this like the foundation that you've laid in terms of what your family values are around bodies and body autonomy, but also, I hope, you know, like that word you used about body esteem. I think that's really great. But I also really like the idea that perhaps they don't think a lot about their bodies.Like, that's what I would really love for them. Laura: That's the dream. Kirstie: Yeah, but there's just a…that's not something that occupies their thoughts all the time. And I, we talked a lot about girls, but it is, it's really important for boys as well. The reason that I want to talk about boys is because it's like the missing piece of the puzzle.We want things to change for our daughters. You can see that the effects of gender stereotyping is,are really bad for women and girls. We have to have actual tasks…well, let's try that again, task force in government, exactly, for violence against women and girls. That's how big of a problem that is. 90% of the perpetrators of violence against women and girls are men. So we have to also be looking at men in that equation. This is not a women's problem. This is a societal problem, a problem across all, everywhere in society about how we treat men and women. And if we're not talking to the boys about equality, If we're only talking to the girls, we're only going to get half of the population changing.It has to be holistically talking to all of our children. And for me, it feels like that means we have to unpick some of that stuff where, you know, the boys are getting a bit of a privilege. You know, we're talking about clothes. That is a privilege for boys that their clothes are made for playing. But it's also, how do you treat a child if their clothes tell you something about them?So if you see a child and they're wearing a top, which has got a bunny wearing a flower crown, what do you, as an adult, think of that child, as opposed to seeing a kid standing next to them, that's wearing a T-Rex with blood dripping from its fangs, right? As adults, how do we treat those children? What are the expectations that we have? Oh, you're big, you're strong, man up, don't cry. You know, the expectations that…that just tiny little cue might give us the emotional connections that we might allow a boy or a girl. These things seem tiny, but they are played out in all sorts of places through society. And unless we allow boys to be warm, be empathetic, to be vulnerable, to be…wrong. You know, to get things wrong and not always be the best at something, you know, we have to allow them some of the things that we're happy to allow girls and the same way that we have to allow the girls some of the things that we're happy to allow the boys. And that's what leads to a more equal distribution as they get older.Laura: I'm really glad that you brought it back there. And I think what I appreciate the most is how you basically connected the dinosaur T-shirt, shark underpants to the toxic masculinity pipeline, right? Like that's, I think what…because I think it's all very well for us to sit here and be like, ‘Oh, girls pants are too small and dah, dah, dah, dah'. But if we can't frame that within the context of, you know, the bigger issues, which I think you do such a great job of bringing it back to, you know, the gender pay gap, for example, like you just did there, like…Well, you didn't say this, but I'm thinking about how male suicide rates are really, really high. Because, and maybe you have some better insight into, like, the statistics around this, but I know especially there was a big conversation about it a few years ago about, yeah, just just like the gender norms that we foist upon men and boys means that they can't express their emotions. They can't tell us when they're struggling, they can't be vulnerable.And I think a consequence of that is that they end up either taking it out on their own lives and ending their own lives, or they take it out on the women around them in the form of things like domestic violence, for example. Can you maybe speak just briefly to, like, yes, it's about pants, but it's about all these other things? You know, like the bigger picture things? Kirstie: Yeah. I mean, it is about pants in, in one way because it sort of lays the baseline. If you are comfortable in your clothes, perhaps you are running a bit faster at school, perhaps you do have a slight advantage in the playground, that sort of thing. Yeah.If your T-shirt says on it, ‘I'm a genius'. Perhaps someone says that to you every time you wear it. Perhaps someone says, ‘Oh yeah, you're a little genius'. And perhaps that's just popping into your head drip, drip, drip day after day. And if your sister's T-shirt says, ‘Isn't she lovely?' on it? LAURA: ‘I'm a princess'. ‘I'm a princess' or just even, I mean, it can be so subtle, you know, ‘Always Happy”'.If your T-shirt says “Always Happy” on it – I see that on so many T-shirts – what's that telling you about how you have to present yourself? So these just little drip drip drip messages, they make a difference. And it makes a difference in how we as adults therefore treat them. And then that gap between how they feel about themselves widens.And what they…they get this idea that they are opposites, instead of things that are really similar: humans. Yeah, humans. You get this idea that you're super, super different. Instead of this idea that everybody here has similarities and differences. And this is just one of them, being a boy and a girl. That's just one of the differences. And we don't separate children by any other characteristics. We don't go to the park and say, Come on brown haired children, time to go home from the park. Like, we just don't do it. There's no other characteristic that we yell out. In the playground. ‘Come on, boys!' So, you know, we make these binary distinctions really, really important.And then by the time they get into secondary school, there's all sorts of things going on. Like, 45% of girls in mixed sex secondary schools have experienced some sort of sexual harassment at school.Laura: I saw this on your Instagram the other day, and I just... It's, it's horrendous. I cannot, like…I mean, I can believe that, but also what?!Kirstie: Yeah, I mean, I…it gives me the fear so badly. Like, what world are we throwing our daughters into? But what world are we throwing our sons into where they think – well, there's a significant proportion of boys in the school that think it's okay to treat women in that way. And it comes back to this idea. This is, that's why this stuff matters. Because it comes back to this idea that if girls are there to be looked at and boys are there to do things. That's how it plays itself out there. So, girls are for looking at. They're not full humans. Boys are the ones that do things. So it doesn't matter if I stick my hand up your skirt, ping a bra strap, whatever it is.That's one pathway, but…as you call it, the toxic masculinity pathway. But the other one is actually...but you can see right through – this is unrelated to clothes really – but you can see right through that the way we talk about, or the way we talk to them, it differs. So studies show that if you know the sex of your baby before it's born, you're more likely to say that they're very active in utero. So you're more likely to use words like ‘active' or say, ‘Oh, got a little footballer in there. So much kicking'. So colours, your expectation colours, your experience of what you're seeing. And then you have a confirmation bias. So when your child does something that chimes with your ideas of what you think boys must like, you notice it more. So you see your boy playing with something with wheels and you're like, ‘Oh, he loves wheels'. I've heard that boys love wheels. You give them more wheels, you give them a lot of praise or excitement or interest. And it creates a feedback loop where they therefore, yeah, they are going to be more interested in this thing.You keep giving them and showing that you're really proud of them. But we also find that parents are less likely to use emotional language with sons than they are with daughters. When they read books together, they're more likely to talk about, what do you think this character's feeling with a daughter than they are with a son?And in fact, the National Education Union did a survey where they looked at preschool, what were the activities that parents were more likely to do with their children, and they broke it down by gender. And parents are more likely to do singing, reading, painting, and expressive things with their daughters. And the only thing that they were more likely to do with the son was sport.Laura: You think about how we are inadvertently training girls to do the emotional labour. And by not teaching boys how to do it, we're double burdening girls with it. Kirstie: It's exactly that. That's exactly it. And we are expecting girls to behave prosocially.So girls are more likely to be punished for what we could call anti-social behavior…but not sharing. Not being kind, that sort of thing. We are more likely to punish, but whatever form that takes, you know? I'm not suggesting that…punish always sounds like a corporal punishment. But actually to come down heavily on…you know, you've gotta share, you've gotta do that.And we are less likely to reward boys for the pro-social stuff. So when boys are sharing or being kind, we are less likely to say, ‘Oh, he's so good at sharing'. Yeah. You know, that's just a thing that people are less likely to say. So there's exactly, that we expect…the expectation that girls will do a little bit more of that emotional labour, but it comes into school where they can, they've been able to see that boys come with a more limited emotional vocabulary.So they're less able to name their feelings and therefore, once you can name a feeling, you can process it. And if you haven't got the skills to name it, you haven't got the skills to process it. So then you see a third more boys are excluded from school. The stat you were talking about, about suicide. So suicide is still the biggest killer of men under 50.And that speaks to not just a crisis in mental health, men's mental health, because I would say there was a crisis in mental health in general, but in the way that it is expressed and dealt with, and men and boys are less likely to reach out to ask for help. So Childline counsel more girls than they do boys, though the same number of them may be having suicidal ideation thoughts. They're more likely to talk to girls about it than they are to talk to the boys about it, and that is seen in the suicide rates, the death by suicide rates for boys. It being significantly higher for male than girls.Laura: It's so horrendous, like, yeah, as a parent of a boy and, yeah, married to one as well, like, a man, yeah, just hearing that is, it's heartbreaking.Kirstie: I suppose the only other thing I would think is worth mentioning, I don't want people to go away feeling like it's doom and gloom because I think It only takes tiny changes, I think.Laura: I mean, I struggle with this a bit because ultimately it's a social issue. And so, I don't want to put everything on individual parents, like we need to change school policy, we need to change…God, even before that, preschool! My preschooler came home the other day, or we were playing in the playground, and he was like, no girls allowed in. And I had to like, I had to stop the play and be like, Let's talk about how we don't exclude people from playing. And I've, like…he had been at nursery for, like, two weeks before this happened. I was mortified. Where are you getting this? It's before they even get to school is what I'm trying to say.Kirstie: Yeah, and I think it peaks actually around six or seven, that really binary thinking, because they want to find their groups, that's like developmental science, like they're coming away from their parents, they want to find their groups, they do want to fit in actually, it's really hard to not fit in.Laura: Yeah, no, it's an evolutionarY…what's the word that I'm looking for? Like, it's evolutionary adaptive to be part of the group. If you're excluded from the group, you're more likely to get eaten by a predator, or like……I'm putting it in really, really simplistic terms there. But, you know, it's this conversation I have with my clients who are coming to see me about, you know, problems with, with body image.  I mean, problems with body image...! But I mean, you know, when they're struggling with how they feel about their body and they say, you know, I just want this last diet. I…you know,  can't let go of the idea of losing weight. And I'm like, well, of course not, because you're more likely to be accepted when you have thin privilege.  And all the privilege that that gives you access to. And that has an evolutionary basis, right? To be accepted, …there's safety in that group. So yeah, the exact same thing……sorry, that was just a massive tangent for me to talk about myself and my work, but…Kirstie: No, I mean, it's... but that's really important because it's all the same thing, isn't it?Because it's exactly…it's all tied up. Like you say, it's like a societal thing. It's so hard to fight against that. Like, I don't always want to be the person who steps out, speaks up. I mean, sometimes I can't help it. That is who I am. But you know, when I'm standing at the school gate, I just want to be friends. I want to make friends. I don't want to be giving people an earful about everything all the time. So it's the same for our children, isn't it? They want to slot in. I think the things that we can do that change that is try and reduce those divisions. I think putting our children in very, very different clothes based on their gender tells them that we think it's really important. So I think there's lots of things that we can do that just reduce those barriers. And I do think that it is a question of changing policies within schools. And I do think it is also maybe shielding them as much as you can from books or TV programs or…I mean, it becomes impossible to be honest, but that, yeah, it's really hard things that don't constantly drip those messages into their heads. And it's really, really hard because they are absolutely everywhere. But if you're aware of it, you keep an eye on what you're reading with them or what you're watching with them or what you're seeing in the supermarket. You know, if you've just got that little thing running in the back of your head thinking, ‘would I let both my kids wear this'? That's one of the questions I ask myself. And the answer has to be yes, I would let both of my kids wear this. One of the questions I ask in the back of my head, like, does this paint everybody in a good light? Like when you're watching Peppa Pig, is Daddy Pig painted in a good light? What do you think it does to little boys to see that? Just think about that for a second. Like what is it when you're watching...Laura: I've given a lot of thought to this.Kirstie: Yeah, I'm sure you have.Laura: Yeah, I wrote recently about – it's from a different angle – but the horrendous anti-fatness in Peppa Pig. And just how...harmful that show is but I hadn't thought of it, because I try and avoid it if possible, but like I hadn't thought of it from the gender perspective as well as, like the lens…Kirstie: Daddy Pig is portrayed inevitably as an idiot. Yeah. And I just think that doesn't do anything good. But on that, I mean, I think it's really interesting now to see how the idea of talking about bodies…We watch Strictly as a family and that's one of the things that my kids enjoy watching and it's hard to find things that everybody can watch together. And there is so much good representation now in the past few years in Strictly, you know, in terms of same sex couples, in terms of people who are openly gay, like, in terms of people from all different backgrounds and ethnicities, like, that's doing a great job, I think. But we watched the opening show and two of the men talked about how they were overweight. “A bit squashy,” one of them said, something like that, talked about, Oh, well, this is going to be hard for me because I've got a problem with weight. And I thought, I think if a woman was saying this, we would be listening to this in a different way. And we would be thinking about how we could positively respond. I think the conversation around body positivity, which is something I feel a bit uncomfortable about, but I think that conversation for women is at least happening. And I feel like that conversation is more complicated and perhaps nuanced for men because we've had this thing about the dad bod, but equally, I was interested to see that people were like talking about their bodies in this…the disparaging their own bodies. In this show that I think of as not being a…that sort of thing, and it fell down gender lines.Laura: That…it's a really interesting observation. I haven't paid much attention to Strictly, but I think just more broadly speaking, I think – and it ties into kind of just not being able to express themselves, maybe in the same way or talk about the things that are bothering them, but also the shifting roles of body image pressures, I suppose, for men and boys. But I did – I'll link to this in the transcript as well – but so I spoke with Dr. Scott Griffiths, who's a psychologist and a body image researcher about sort of the shifting way that the male bodies are perceived and, and kind of the growing pressure and expectation of them to have this ripped, shredded body to the point that we are now seeing, in older sort of teens, we're seeing something called muscle dysmorphic disorder, so a body dysmorphic disorder, it sort of sits between a body dysmorphic and eating disorder.Generally, boys who struggle with it consider themselves to be like insufficiently muscled and really lean and scrawny and they, they want to bulk up and, and get big and strong, like, you know, all the messages that they've been receiving since they were one and two and three years old. And so they end up…on the really extreme end of it, they might inject testosterone [I MEAN STEROIDS HERE!]. It can lead to infertility. It can, it can lead to all sorts of really, really. hugely problematic things. And again, if I just wonder about, you know…it's, it's acceptable for women to talk about how they struggle with their bodies for better or worse. And we obviously have a sort of counterbalance to that in the, the body positivity, body acceptance movement, but that doesn't exist for men.There is no body positivity for men or…like, there is, but there's a few, you know, a few people talking about it.Kirstie: You could argue that because it hasn't been necessary till now because it has been less of a concern societally for people to police men's bodies. But now we're finding ourselves in this highly visual culture where people are policing everybody's bodies.And simultaneously, like you say, we're asking little boys to conform to these really rigid rules about what it means to be a man or look like a man.Laura: And we're giving them like, if you think back to like what a Ken doll looks like, to what a G.I. Joe or like…I don't know if kids play with them anymore, but you know what I mean?Kirstie: What they do play with is Spider Man or Hulk or Batman or, you know, all of these figures, they are all hyper muscled. And if you watch those Marvel films, those are idealised bodies and the idealising for boys and men is to have these bulging biceps and to have a six pack and things that actually aren't…you know, if you ever hear a film, a film star talking about what they have to do to look the way they do.You know, if you ever heard Hugh Jackman talking about what it was like to be Wolverine, that is not okay. It's punishing. It's absolutely punishing. He didn't drink for days on end. You know, really, he was at the limits of what you can do and still be alive and turning up for work and doing specific sort of flexes and the pressure then that that could put on you if you were the, you know, if you're susceptible to, like you say, injecting hormones or steroids and the fact that that stuff is very reasonable, you know, very easily available or to be buying protein powders and being told on TikTok that you, you too can bulk up, you could, yeah, but actually your genetics are playing a part in this.You can't. Yeah. Bodies are different.Laura: So, so much playing, playing into that. And Kirstie, I feel like we could talk for hours about this stuff. And I, I'm, I'm really conscious about your time. It's a...Kirstie: Yeah, so I've got to go and pick my children up from school! Laura: Okay. So, okay. There is one burning question that I have for you, which is...I don't know if you have this, like, data, but do dads read your magazine?Kirstie: Well, that's a good question. So I don't have this data. What I can tell you is, from my social media account is that it's like 90% women. That's slightly to do with Instagram. Instagram skews towards women. Yeah. This is a question that I get asked a lot: why don't more men write for you? So men are less likely to pitch me. And I think you'll find that men talking about parenting often have daughters. Yeah. And I do get it because I think when you have a daughter as a man, you have the same experience that I talked about where I suddenly was like, Oh, I don't know what it is like to be a boy in this world. I haven't done that. Oh, I see some of the things that you're going to run up against. I think that realisation for some fathers can be huge. Yeah. I think it can be absolutely massive for them. I think they can realise a lot about their own previous experiences to see that. And I don't like the fact that they have to have a daughter for this to happen to them.But they suddenly realise, Oh, I see how you're going to be treated in this world and I do not like it. And I want to talk about parenting now.Laura: I was just going to say, you have a much more generous interpretation of it than I do, which I think is that, and maybe – and I don't think it's one or the other, it's probably both – but I also think that this just speaks to the point that we were making earlier, which is that so much of the emotional labour of raising children falls on women.Kirstie: Yes, I mean, I think that is true, that basically who buys parenting books is women, who worries and feels mum guilt? It's women. We don't, I, I mean, I haven't, I spend a lot of time on the internet, but I haven't seen loads of men talking about dad guilt. I haven't heard a lot of men saying how hard they find it to manage their children's emotional development throughout, through our difficult society.Like that isn't a thing that a lot of men are talking about. It's not the case that no men are talking about it. So there are some prominent men who talk about this stuff. It doesn't fit with our societal narratives. So, I mean, I would recommend anybody to read, Robert Webb's, How Not to Be a Boy. I've really enjoyed that book. There's a really interesting, it's a half memoir, half…Laura: Like parenting?Kirstie: …musing on, well, yeah, it was useful in parenting, I think, in terms of he talks about how he would like to raise his children, bearing in mind what he's done. I would recommend Grayson Perry's book, The Descent of Man. That's a great small book. And it's, he's just got such a really great way of pinpointing the sort of weirdnesses of gender, like there's so many…and he's funny as well and warm, isn't he? He even made a TV programme that went along with that. Those books are relatively old, but I think they have a lot to say. I mean, Justin Baldoni, I don't know if you know him, he was in Jane the Virgin? If you've ever seen that. He was like the beefcake guy, I can't remember, he was called Raphael I think. He's written a book about how hard it was for him growing up and how much he struggled with his own body image. And the expectations placed on him as a young man and how hard he found it to be vulnerable and when someone showed him pornography when he was 12 or younger, he, you know, how he couldn't tell his parents and didn't know how to deal with this.And, you know, so there are some people talking about this, but they are so few and far between. And also it doesn't fall into the easy categories, I think, that we find it, that marketers find it easy to sell, that book publishers see the obvious opportunities, you know. And I think, you're right, men as a general rule aren't being asked to think about this. How are they going to change the world for their sons? Laura: Oh, well, you've given some really cool resources for us to check out and buy for our baby daddies! Right. For Father's Day or whatever, Christmas, whatever's coming up, where are we, what is time? And I think, you know, the work that you're doing is so critical as well and getting these conversations started and just thinking about, you know, like the little things like pants and how they have these huge repercussions.So Kirstie, before I let you go…at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been really into lately. So it can be a book, it can be…which you've just given us lots of books! But it could be something not to do with work. It could be an actual snack. It can be a podcast, anything that you would like to recommend to the listeners.Kirstie: I had a long think about this. And the thing is, I was thinking that in terms of my actual snacks, I do not have a sweet tooth. Oh, I know this is very…but basically I just want savoury things all the time. So the snacks that I have been snacking on is, I mean, I just eat crisps. I just love crisps.Laura: No shame in the crisp game.Kirstie: Just love crisps. But the thing that I've been really snacking on recently is miso soup. Laura: Miso. Oh, yum. Kirstie: Yeah. Because I, what I really crave in the middle of the day. Is like a hit of that salt. Salty, yes. Salty. Tasty. It feels like a hot velvet drink and so I'm always delighted when it's got cold enough. I feel like, yes, it's soup time. And so that's like my hit of salty deliciousness.Laura: Oh my God, that sounds so good. Actually, I never thought of just…I love miso soup, but like usually when I'm eating Japanese food. Yeah. I never thought of just like…cause you can get like, do you make up miso soup like with miso paste or do you do, like, the instant sachet stuff?Kirstie: I do have the paste, which I just stick in everything because I want everything to taste like that basically. But I bought powdered ones. And they are brilliant.Laura: And yeah, you just fill it up with the boiling water and…?Kirstie: Yeah, it's like two o'clock in the afternoon. I've had my lunch. And eat something else that's delicious.Laura: A little miso pick me up.Kirstie: A little pep me up.Laura: Yeah. Oh, yum. Okay, that's making me hungry just thinking about that. So I am going to be your inverse. And I am

Today on the podcast I'm joined by Dr. Molly Moffat - A GP who practices medicine from a weight inclusive, neurodiversity affirming lens, celebrating both diversity of bodies and of minds. In this episode, we are talking about how Molly moved away from recommending diets and weight loss to her patients, towards an anti-diet, weight-inclusive approach, focused on treating individuals with care and compassion. We get into what exactly medical anti-fat bias is and why it's so harmful, and she has some really lovely suggestions for how to talk to patients who come in with the idea that they have to lose weight for medical reasons. Find out more about Molly's work here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTRO:Molly: Fat folk don't go and see their doctor when they need to. And you know, I don't need to explain why that is a concern. That is a concern. It means that diagnoses are missed, diagnoses are made late, and it absolutely contributes to stress, mental health, physical health and health inequity in an already marginalised group of people.Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk all about appetite, bodies and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Molly Moffat. Molly is a GP with a special interest in learning disability and autism. She practices medicine from a weight inclusive, neurodiversity affirming lens, celebrating both diversity of bodies and of minds. She's neurodivergent herself and has three children. In this episode, Molly and I are talking about how she moved away from recommending diets and weight loss to her patients towards an anti diet, weight inclusive approach, focused on treating individuals with care and compassion. We get into what exactly medical anti-fat bias is and why it's so harmful, and she has some really lovely suggestions for how to talk to patients who come in with the idea that they have to lose weight for medical reasons. I really loved talking to Molly and I think you're going to enjoy this episode.But before we get to today's conversation, I want to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter and community. Now, I know we're not used to having to pay for content on the internet. and why would you pay for something where 85% of the content is free anyway?Well, because without paying supporters, this work just wouldn't be possible. None of the newsletter, not the podcast. As well as supporting me in the time it takes to research, interview contributors, and write articles, your support goes towards paying guests for their time and their labour, as well as a podcast and a newsletter editor, so it's a whole team effort.You also help me keep the space ad and sponsor free, so I don't have to sell out to advertisers or exploit my kid for freebies. Plus, keeping the community closed to paying subscribers only means that we keep the trolls and the fatphobes out. I recently asked the CIHAS community why they support the newsletter, and this is what one reader had to say:“I'm a mum of one fairly adventurous, self proclaimed vegetarian and one theoretical omnivore. The latter survives almost exclusively on added sugar and butter, but mostly sugar. I consumed all the picky eating advice, some of it really well meaning and pretty mellow, but by seven years in, I was more frustrated, confused, and full of self doubt than ever.Enter CIHAS. The no nonsense, cut through the bullshit, science backed content is exceptional. The content about sugar is especially helpful to me, and the anti diet lens is an antidote to my extremely anti fat/diet culture conditioning. And as an American, the British references are just an added bonus. To say your work is actively changing my life is not an understatement. Thank you.”Well, thank you to the reader who sent that really lovely review. Becoming a paid subscriber is a fiver a month or £50 for the year. And you get loads of cool perks as well as just my undying gratitude for supporting my work. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to subscribe now.  All right, team, here's my conversation with Dr. Molly Moffatt. MAIN EPISODE:Hey Molly, can you start by telling us a little bit about you and the work that you do? Molly: Sure, yes. So I'm a GP, although I actually only do one day of general practice at the moment. I have a special interest in learning disability and autism. I've been working in that field for a few years, and I've recently started working in paediatrics, doing some neurodevelopmental assessments, and I also do some teaching for medical students. The reason I'm here is because I do my very best to practice in a weight inclusive manner, so I'm not worried about fat bodies, but I'm really worried about the way fat bodies are treated, particularly when they're trying to seek healthcare.Laura: Yeah, that's what you're here to talk about today, but I feel like we could probably have a whole other conversation about neurodivergence and feeding differences and all of that stuff, but I will try and rein myself in because, yeah, like you said, I really wanted to talk to you about how fat bodies are perceived and how they're treated in medical settings.So I'm wondering if you could kind of take us on a bit of a journey with you. Can you set the scene for us? You're a medic, straight out of training, going into your GP specialisation. At that point, what do you believe to be true about the relationship between weight and health?Molly: Okay. So I mean, all of my medical school teaching, all of my junior doctor training, and my GP training was absolutely based in this weight normative approach.So the idea that weight was a marker of health, and that we should be pursuing weight management for our fat patients. And there was never any discussion around where that came from. So, you know, it was just stated as a fact that ‘ob*sity' came with all of these comorbidities and put people at increased risk of X, Y, and Z.And, like I say, I never remember – and I'm really confident it didn't happen – any discussion around where the evidence behind those statements came from, and the fact that actually...it was really complex and that maybe there were some other factors at play that cause that association between body size and certain diseases.And I also never remember any conversation about weight stigma and the impact that that can have on people's health.Laura: Okay. Well, there's so much that I could kind of, like, tease out of what you just said there, but I think the sort of headline for me is just how this information was presented to you as complete certainty. I think if I'm kind of reading between the lines, or what I've even learned in my own training, that as weight goes up, the worse the health outcomes, right? Like in this linear sort of fashion. It sounds as though you learned something similar, but the evidence behind that was never really presented or unpacked or challenged in any way.And that's the part that I find most, like, terrifying because as medics you should be, like, challenging the evidence and not just, like, swallowing it whole and, you know, swallowing information whole and not kind of having any critical thought around it.Molly: I know, I agree. And of course there were things that we critically appraised and we were taught how to critically appraise, but the world of ‘ob*sity' was just something that was presented as a fact.And I feel so sad that I kind of missed out on all of those years of a greater understanding of how complex it was.Laura: You also mentioned weight stigma, which we'll come back to in a second, but coming back to this idea of how complex it is. So what were some of those messages that you received that oversimplified the relationship between weight and health?You know, I've kind of mentioned this idea that as weight goes up, that health invariably goes down. I'm wondering what other kinds of things that you picked up on that sort of reinforced those ideas.Molly: Yeah, I mean, absolutely kind of ‘eat less and move more' was something that we spouted. And, you know, when we were kind of practicing role play scenarios, one of the tick boxes was ‘give lifestyle advice'.Part of that was, you know, absolutely eat less and move more. And, you know, assumptions around a person's lifestyle and diet again was very much part of that message. That people were fat because they didn't exercise and they ate too much.Laura: And then they also lie to you, right, about how much they've eaten?That's…at least, that's the thread that we got in nutrition training, is that people who are higher weight, they're almost always lying about their dietary intake. And so you are already…I mean, think about how problematic that is, that you're already going in with the assumption that this person is lying to you about, you know, their lived experience, like, what does that do from the perspective of forming any kind of therapeutic relationship to go in with that understanding and assumption?Molly: Yeah, no, I agree entirely and, you know, let's think about when people are presenting to a healthcare setting, they're generally a bit nervous and anxious and feeling quite vulnerable and they are essentially quite powerless in that situation. And then imagine that they're also giving you information and telling you about their lifestyle and that's being doubted. It's horrible, isn't it?Laura: Yeah, it's really, really messed up when you slow it down and think about it. I'm wondering if there were any particular moments or specific patients that you remember that started to change that understanding a bit for you? That kind of threw a kink in that really simple narrative of ‘weight equals health', and ‘calories in equals calories out' and you know, we just need to go on a diet and then everyone will be thin?Molly: Yeah, I mean, my path towards kind of health at every size was quite convoluted. And actually it began with an interest in lifestyle medicine. So I was feeling quite…Laura: Oh, a detour into lifestyle medicine! Okay. The plot thickens.Molly: Yeah, the plot thickens. Absolutely. So. You know, I was feeling quite demoralised by the fact I was seeing a lot of chronic disease and that people were not getting any better and they were coming back to see me and I was giving them lots of medications and, you know, often those medications would come with fairly significant side effects. And so I guess what lifestyle medicine offered me, or what I thought it offered me, was the opportunity to really get to the bottom of those problems without the need for medication and the kind of idea that prevention was better than cure.And it appealed to me from a holistic perspective, you know, this was an opportunity to kind of see the person as a whole, rather than just focusing on an individual symptom. So I was actually really excited and really motivated. But what I found with time was that, first of all, I became more uncomfortable with the dynamic that was being played out, which was me as this middle class professional who carried a significant amount of privilege telling people how to live their lives that with time felt more icky.And also that people weren't able to do all the things we were discussing, or if they did do…follow the advice that I was giving them, it wasn't really making them feel any better because, hey, you know, there are these things called social determinants of health, which actually great…you know, carry a greater significance than personal behaviours.Laura: I'm just wondering for people who maybe aren't familiar with like, the world of lifestyle medicine, if you could say a little bit more about that and kind of the type of advice that you were giving people, like when you say lifestyle advice, what exactly does that mean? And I understand it's like a whole range of things, but yeah, I'm curious to hear how you applied that in your practice.Molly: So, I mean, it was looking at kind of core areas. Those core areas were: sleep, stress management, nutrition, and exercise and, you know, within the nutrition arm, I'm really sad to say that weight loss played a part of that. And, you know, whilst I tried to make that as individualised as possible to the person in front of me, inherently, there is an element of elitism really with lifestyle advice, I feel that, again, just didn't really quite sit right with me. And I actually found myself feeling a bit irritated. If I'm honest, I was feeling irritated that people weren't doing what I was asking. And luckily I had the insight to acknowledge that, you know, that was a me problem, not a them problem.What I realised was that I wasn't really irritated with them. I was just really frustrated that, you know, here was what I thought was this chance to really make people's lives better. And actually it wasn't having the impact that I thought it would.Laura: It's almost as though…and this is totally my perspective and my, I think, a little bit of prejudice against lifestyle medicine.But there…it's kind of this underlying assumption that people need you to tell them what to do because they don't know any better.Molly: Yeah, they don't know. Oh, it's so patronising. Laura: Yeah. And it's like a kind of a knowledge deficit. Molly: Absolutely. Laura: When most people, they do understand the importance of sleep and they do understand, like, it's helpful to, like, move their bodies in some way and to eat some vegetables.Molly: Absolutely. That rings true so much with me. You know, I hear these conversations where people are talking about healthy weight management and you know, the suggestions are, well, ‘let's teach people how to cook'. And I just think, oh, for goodness sake. You know, it's so patronising to assume that people don't know how to cook and that you're kind of…it's this kind of saviour complex that, well, let's teach them how to cook because they don't know that and therefore their life's going to be okay.They do know how to cook, but what if they've, you know, got three jobs because they need to work three jobs in order to pay the bills? They don't have time to cook.Laura: What if they just don't like…because they've got their own cultural background, they cook food in a very different way than how you cook food or like there's a whole number of reasons why like that might just not only fall flat but It could be problematic for some people. You know, especially if they're like, well, ‘my doctor is telling me I need to do this, but this doesn't really align with either my values or you know, what I'm able to access or have time for the competing messages that I'm getting from within my family' or whatever it might be.So there's a lot of idealisation I think that goes on in the lifestyle medicine community and not a deep enough understanding of social determinants of health, like you said.Molly: I think that's the big, big part that's missing in lifestyle medicine and the recognition…recognition of the social determinants of health.Laura: Absolutely. And even just like the understanding that even if everybody did eat whatever Rangan Chatterjee is spouting off that we should eat, it doesn't mean that our health will all kind of play out along the same lines. So we were going through your journey.Molly: Yeah, so I was talking about lifestyle medicine and feeling just a bit uncomfortable with the whole thing.And of course at that time I was nurturing a special interest in neurodiversity, kind of recognising my own neurodivergence and my children's neurodivergence. And so eating disorders were kind of very much on my radar. And so intuitively I just didn't like the idea of creating any kind of fear or anxiety around food that just felt wrong.And, you know, that's what we were doing when we were talking about nutrition, the world of nutrition is also extremely confusing. And it was confusing for me. You know, you have all these people giving really compelling arguments as to why their diet is the best. And they're able to give you all this evidence that backs up their claims.But the kind of general theme, yes, is that we are creating this fear and anxiety around, often, whole groups of food.Laura: I mean, wow. There's so much that we could say even about that. Like I got a message from a parent the other day who was like, I feel like I need to have a degree in nutrition to feed my child.I was just like, yeah, that's how fucking convoluted we have made nutrition with all the kind of competing expert voices who are shouting about, you know, their diet as being the best diet and even like among amongst paediatric feeding professionals and, well, just feediatric…did I just invent a new word?! Paediatric dieticians and nutritionists, there's, you know, there's a right and a wrong way.And like you say, it really creates a lot of fear and anxiety about messing up. And it plays into our fears about not being a good enough parent. And yeah, it really, like, tugs on a lot of different parts of us. Where did it go from there then once you had this kind of recognition of like, well, I don't want to be adding fuel to the fire of eating disorders, disordered eating and making food scary for, you know…I'm thinking about patients of yours that might be neurodivergent where food might already be really scary.Where did it go from there?Molly: Where it went from there is that I went on maternity leave.Laura: Get out of there!Molly: Yeah, exactly. So I went on maternity leave with this kind of feeling of disconnect and that something wasn't right and I needed to do something. And of course maternity leave provided me with the opportunity to listen to lots of podcasts and read lots of things while sat feeding a baby. So that's how I actually stumbled across health at every size. You know, the kind of the parenting path that I've chosen to take meant that I was already aware of, you know, division of responsibility and intuitive eating and kind of food neutrality and body neutrality. So I was already, already aware of those. And, you know, I was…again, intuitively the idea of the language that I was using around food and bodies with my children was very important.So I think I actually listened to a podcast. I think it might have been the Full Blooms podcast that I listened to. And I think was being interviewed on that. And that was the first time I heard the words kind of anti diet and health at every size. And yeah, when I have a special interest, I really have a special interest. So, you know, 158 podcasts later, um, yeah, there I was. And, you know, there I was in this state of…a combination of so many feelings of kind of frustration, guilt, sadness, anger, disbelief. Yeah, you know, I kind of had this very strong sense of justice and feel things very deeply and it…I found it very consuming to begin with. This feeling that I'd been getting it wrong and why are more people not talking about this? Why is this not more mainstream? And really, people should be talking about this. And I wanted to tell everybody I knew about this because this is so important.Laura: I've heard a similar version of that story from not just other medical professionals, but also clients of mine who are like, why, why isn't everyone talking about this?And they want to kind of. become these little social justice warriors and really just, like, shout it from the rooftops. But what I really appreciated, Molly, there, was just you talking about all the complexity of the feelings that came up for you, because I think oftentimes, particularly if you're in the medical profession or any kind of allied health profession, because you're in that caring profession, your automatic line of thinking is often, wow, I've caused so much harm.And, and you feel an immense amount of guilt for continuing to prescribe diets when you're learning that diets don't work and you think about all the encounters you've had with patients that might have inadvertently increased their experiences of stigma and harm. And again, we'll come to talk about that more in a bit.I suppose my point is really that…of course you're going to feel that way and that doesn't have to be where it ends being kind of stuck with those feelings of guilt. And so hopefully there was also like a glimmer of hope in there as well? Molly: Oh gosh, yes. Laura: Well, I'm wondering as well, because it sounds like you were quite disenchanted before you went on maternity leave. So did this feel like, okay, this is something that…this is a missing piece of the puzzle for me, for my practice going forward?Molly: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I have complete conviction about it. And I did at the time and I still have now, you know, this is absolutely the way I want to practice. And I do have hope.And I do think that in 20 years time, maybe even 10 years time, we are going to change the way we look at weight and weight management, well, weight management, you know, will not be a thing.Laura: Just abolish weight management. Molly: Yeah, absolutely. Laura: You've used the term health at every size and I'm wondering if you could just give a brief kind of like, explainer of what health at every size is for people who haven't encountered it before. Or weight inclusive healthcare, you know, like whatever feels more comfortable for you.Molly: Yeah, I mean, I guess let's talk about the kind of weight-inclusive, the weight inclusive approach, which is probably what I feel kind of most comfortable with. Laura: Same. Molly: Yeah. So the idea that weight isn't a marker of health, and that people of any size deserve good quality, compassionate, equal access to healthcare, that weight loss isn't possible for most people, and that actually trying to achieve weight loss brings with it lots of concerning things like, a, you know, problematic relationship with food, risk for eating disorders, and weight cycling, so weight going up and down, which again is bad for us, along with stress, and again, stress is not good for us.Laura: Yeah, so there's, there's a lot to even think about within there, but I think that even that first idea is really radical and it shouldn't be, right? That first idea of like, people of all sizes deserve equal access to healthcare and it should all be delivered with compassion and care. And I think most of us, at least those of us who have thin privilege, for us that's more or less a given.Although, you know, I've had plenty of shady encounters with doctors, but in general, you know, I am treated well, whereas, and certainly stories I've heard from clients and, you know, fat activists and people online is that that is…and that's, this is what bears out in the evidence as well, is that that is not guaranteed.That people of a higher body weight can walk into a GP surgery, maybe they're seeking care for, I don't know, a sore throat or a pain in their hand. And to call back to your earlier point about how you have to make these, like, lifestyle recommendations. Patients who are of a higher weight, regardless of what they present for, are almost often given a prescription for weight loss, or they might even be handed a coupon for Slimming World, right?Like the NHS partners with Slimming World too, and some other weight loss companies. But even if that's not what that person came in for, or even if that person said in no uncertain terms, I do not want to talk about weight loss. weight. That's not what I'm here for. I don't want to diet. The doctor generally won't respect that boundary. Um, yeah.Molly: And what's so sad is that I see patients preempting that. So I have patients that come to me who will say, ‘I know I need to lose weight', or ‘I know I'm a bigger girl', you know, it's almost like…because they are so anticipating me saying it and so nervous about that conversation, that they kind of want to say it, so it's out the way.Laura: Yeah. What do you think that's about? What do you think's going on there?Molly: Well, I mean, I think they're feeling vulnerable and anxious. And as I said, they are so used to their doctor saying something about their size that it's almost like they kind of just want to get it out of the way. If I say it, then they won't say it.Laura: Yeah, almost like a defence, it sounds like.Molly: Yeah, absolutely. And it, you know, it's so sad.Laura: And how do you approach that with a patient then if they, if they start a consultation off like that, I'm kind of jumping ahead of myself here a little bit, but thinking about, you know, how from this new perspective of, of being a weight inclusive doctor, do you approach that conversation and start to kind of, you know, take them on a, in a slightly different direction than, than they might have been accustomed to.Molly: So it's not easy and it's something that I'm still kind of trying to work out. And of course, you know, bearing in mind, I have 10-15 minutes with these people. And of course, it's not like they come to me and they say, Oh, you know, tell me what you think about my weight, or do you think I need to lose weight?They come to me with the assumption that I believe they should lose weight, and they, you know, usually they will come about something else like, you know, a chest infection or a sore throat, and their weight will... come up as part of that consultation. You know, that kind of respectful two way dialogue is a really important part for me of the weight inclusive approach.And, you know, in the same way that I feel very strongly that a weight centric consultation is horrible because it's that kind of didactic, this is what you must do. Similarly, you know, me just telling somebody, you don't need to lose weight equally wouldn't sit right with me. And of course, I'm very hyper aware in that scenario of my own thin privilege and how insensitive of me it would be to just kind of, you know, dismiss them and say, you don't need to worry about your weight because that would be really kind of minimising their experience.And of course they have had to worry about their weight because their size has meant that they have faced many obstacles and horrible things happen to them and discrimination and so I think it's really important to kind of acknowledge that. So what I try and do is to actually apologise and say, I'm so sorry that anybody has made you feel that your body is flawed and needs fixing. I don't believe that. And I explain my background and I say, you know, I spent the last few years learning a lot about weight science and reflecting, and as a result of that learning, I now don't see weight as a marker of health and I don't recommend weight loss to my patients and I explain the reasons for that. Laura: Oh my God. I feel kind of emotional hearing you say that just because of just how powerful it would be, I mean, for anyone to hear that who's, you know, had concerns about their weight, but particularly for, for fat folks and, and like, I'm thinking specifically of, of a couple of clients of mine in the past, who've just had horrendous experiences with their GP, even when I have preemptively written to the GP saying, like: ‘this person has a history of disordered eating and we're not pursuing intentional weight loss for these reasons. Here's all this science that you can read to say why this isn't a good idea', and then still had, you know, yeah, just horrendous experiences.  And so yeah, just to have a GP who is so compassionate and understanding. First of all, you're signalling that you're a safe person to them. And secondly, you're signalling that you can come and talk to me about this stuff. Like, even if they're not there about their weight, they want to get their antibiotics for their chest infection and just get out of there. But in the future, if that comes up, they know that they can come to you and approach you. And it's just, it feels like a really powerful thing to me.Molly: People do cry, actually. I've had a few people cry when I've said that.Laura: I bet they do. Yeah. I hope that any other GPs listening are frantically taking notes at this point of a little, a little spiel that they can say to their clients. And, and has that gone on to open up any other conversations with patients? Or kind of, you say that people get emotional, but what besides that is the response?Molly: like I say, emotional that that's not something they've ever heard anybody say before. And I guess kind of relief. I mean, at the same time, you know, I fully recognise that they will have had a lifetime of being told different things. So, you know, it will take a lot of time for them to completely change their thinking. But yeah, people do come back and have come back to speak to me about it.And, you know, normally what I say is, how would you feel about us instead thinking about certain health behaviours and how we can talk about those, but without weight loss being the goal? And I, I give them that to kind of think about really.Laura: And how do you make it so that that doesn't end up feeling like an earlier lifestyle medicine conversation?Molly: And I'm very conscious of that too. And I guess I make sure that I point out that the reason I don't want weight loss to be the goal is because when weight loss does become the goal, actually those behaviours... become quite unhealthy. As I said, I'm not quite sure I've got it right just yet. I'm constantly trying to think in my head how I can script these things in a way that does mean that people are going to come back to see me to talk about it because I want to talk to everybody about it and I want them to come back and see me, and like you say, for them to feel safe.Laura: Yeah. And I mean, fundamentally your job is to help people care for themselves and to offer them care. So yeah, you, you also can't be sort of, you can't completely ignore, you know, health promoting behaviours, but I suppose like, at least for me, it's eliciting from the individual what is important to them and what feels doable for them.So it's like really basic motivational interviewing stuff. Yeah. Yeah. How can we work from where you already are. And again, it speaks to that piece that a lot of times people already know the things that they need to do. And so it's just supporting them with the changes that they already want to make or not make and holding space for that as well. And offering them the medication if that's actually what they need.Molly:  And there being no shame around that, you know? Laura: Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. It's like a whole new way of doing medicine. So we've talked about a little bit around this concept of weight stigma, because there's a sort of very particular experience of weight stigma that happens in medical settings, or we could also use the words anti fatness to, I think, better describe weight stigma.And yeah, just a sort of side note, weight stigma tends to be a very, like, neutered term that is used in academia, whereas I think in, in critical fat studies and, and in fat liberation spaces, they're more and more using the word anti-fat bias, which really speaks to what that is. Can you explain a little bit more of what that means and how it plays out in a medical setting and how it is so harmful and damaging for people's health?Molly: Yeah. I mean, what we're referring to there is, as you say, the anti-fat bias that people who work in healthcare carry. So meaning a preference to thin bodies and kind of prejudice towards fat bodies. And that's experienced by fat people as weight stigma, that's really, really concerning and it can present in many ways, but it's, let's give you some examples of what that can look like in a GP surgery.So that can look like a fat person coming to see their GP and, as you said earlier, having every symptom put down to their weight, weight loss being the answer for everything. It can mean a fat person losing weight and that weight loss being celebrated, rather than that weight loss being considered the red flag that it should be and being investigated correctly. It can look like there not being the right equipment available, so therefore the necessary examination doesn't take place, the right investigations don't take place. It can look like the treatment options that are available for thin people not being available or accessible to fat people. And, you know, all of this means that fat folk don't go and see their doctor when they need to.And, you know, I don't need to explain why that is a concern. That is a concern. It means that diagnoses are missed, diagnoses are made late and it absolutely contributes to stress. Mental health, physical health, and health inequity in an already marginalized group of people. I find it so concerning.Laura: When you list it all out like that, it just puts it into perspective how healthcare for...fat people is anything but care. It's anything but health. It's, yeah, prejudice, and marginalisation and, yeah, violence. I think a lot of times. Yeah. Because it can kind of, I was just thinking of another example of what people have told me that they've had to go for like two or three oral glucose tolerance tests in pregnancy, because their doctors have, are just baffled that these people aren't…Molly: Couldn't possibly be diabetic…Laura: Couldn't possibly be diabetic... Because there's an assumption, I think made about what fat people's health should be. Molly: Absolutely. Laura: You know, I want to caveat this whole conversation by saying that nobody owes anyone health and yeah, health is, is morally neutral, right? Molly: Absolutely. Yeah. Laura: But there is a very pervasive idea that fat people cannot also have, you know, markers that we would traditionally consider to be within normal range or are healthy by virtue of the fact that they're fat. But I think what the evidence shows us over and over again, when we really dig through it, is that independent of your body size, you can have markers of health. Like, cardio respiratory health, low cholesterol, or like within the healthy range, not have type 2 diabetes, not have high blood pressure. But I think the assumption that I hear from medical colleagues is that people will invariably have those things if they're a higher weight.Molly: Yeah. And you know, when we think about children, I see that, that we have a child who, in terms of their kind of metabolic health markers is healthy. And yet because they are a certain weight that's pathologised and they are treated as if they are a pathology, whereas actually there is nothing wrong with them when you look at their blood results and their blood pressure.Laura: Yeah, because I did want to ask you a little bit about, about kids, if that's okay.I realize it's a bit of a detour, but I'm, I'm curious to hear if you were the parent of that child that you mentioned who might be a higher body weight, but you know, otherwise there's nothing there to worry about. Or even if there is something to worry about, you know, do you have any advice for parents of how to navigate health care and, you know, have these approach these conversations with their GP, you know, to say, like, ‘I don't want to focus on their weight. What else can we do to support this child?'Molly: Yeah, I mean, I think that's what you've just said is a really good way of framing it. Laura: I just realised I just answered my own question!Molly: And, you know, I really, really feel for parents in this situation because it must be such a horrible confrontation. To be faced with health care professionals who are telling you that you need to do something about your child's weight, and yet you have a child in front of you and you're worried about how they feel about their body, how they feel about themselves. And I guess, you know, the sad thing is that many parents do believe what a doctor says to them, and so would put their child on a diet, which just horrifies me and breaks my heart of what we're doing to children when we do that. But yeah, I mean, I think as you posed it perfectly, you know…'I'm happy to talk about health behaviours, but I'm not happy to focus on my child's weight and the reasons for that are that I don't want my child to develop an eating disorder and my child's relationship with their body and food is really important to me.'Laura: That's a really brave thing, a really brave thing to have to do as a parent. I mean, I know trying to like stand up to…I remember declining to be weighed at my booking appointment for the maternity pathway, and the nurse was just so aggressive with me. She was just like, ‘computer says no'. And I was like, but I don't have to do this. But I was in such a like, fragile state. Molly: Of course. Of course. Yeah. Laura: Trying to push back on a healthcare professional when they're not receptive to it. And also, like, there's some weird stuff there, but like, if you decline a test, which is basically what I did decline, they should respect that. And they didn't. So that's like a whole other thing. But my point is that pushing back on a, on a healthcare, an authoritative, an authoritative healthcare provider is really, really challenging.So I think to step into that space as a parent is, it's really hard.Molly: Really, really hard. Absolutely. I do not underestimate that at all. You know, I recently got told that I shouldn't be breastfeeding my two and a half year old and. You know, I approached that situation as a doctor with privilege, and I found that very difficult.Laura: Oh, so a healthcare professional told you?Molly: Yeah, yeah. What? That it currently wasn't offering any nutritional value. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not trying to compare that to how it must feel as a parent of a fat child, but, uh, you know, I understand that. Yeah. Confronting somebody in a position of authority is extremely, extremely difficult.And I wish people didn't have to have those conversations.Laura: Well, I hope you told them where to shove it with, with their comments about feeding. Molly: I pulled down my top and latched them. Laura: Love it. Okay. Well. Yes, as a still feeding a preschooler, I totally, totally respect your decision to, to keep feeding. And yes, also if you have any tips for how the fuck to get them to self-wean…! Molly: No, sadly not, no! Laura: Uh, he'll stop one day, I keep telling myself. We were just talking a bit about how anti fatness presents itself in the medical setting and how people are less likely to have their experiences believed, they are less likely to be offered the follow up…what's the word, the medical word, I'm struggling to find the medical word, like the assessments and…Molly: Investigations? Laura: Thank you, that they, they might need. Weight loss is often celebrated when it's a red flag for, you know, if it was a thin person, it would be definitely a red flag, but that just doesn't register. There's, I say ‘avoidance' kind of in quotation marks, avoidance of healthcare and kind of ‘noncompliance' again in inverted commas because they are such loaded problematic terms, because they put the blame on the individual instead of on the medical professional who is often perpetrating violence against that person. And so, yeah, I just want to kind of give that caveat. Yeah. And it can encourage…or it can mean that people die. Like it's, it's often a case of life, life or death because people understandably don't want to go see their GP.There's a really powerful piece, I'm not sure Molly, if you've read it, by Marquisele Mercedes in Pipewrench Magazine, where she's talking about not just the intersection of anti-fatness and medical care, but also anti-blackness because there's a another layer here when someone is racialised about assumptions made about like their pain threshold and, and tolerance. And it's a really eye-opening read if you haven't already read it. So I'm gonna link to that in the show notes just to give people like more, yeah, a kind of deeper understanding of some of these issues. I'm curious to hear, since you've adopted more of a white inclusive approach, if you've had any pushback from your colleagues and if you have, how do you handle that?Molly: So actually, I haven't. Not that I know about, not that anybody has spoken to me about, and actually, I...Laura: You're just keeping it under your hat because you're just alone in that GP room. You don't have to, like, deal with other doctors on a ward.Molly: I mean, that does help, absolutely, that I do have a lot of autonomy. And yes, I'm in my room and I see my patients. I did do a presentation to my colleagues about weight inclusive care, which I was really nervous about. And isn't that funny? Because... You know, I was thinking about the fact I was far more nervous doing that than I would be doing other presentations and, you know, these days I do a fair amount of presenting, and I kind of unpicked that. I thought, let's think about the crux of what I'm saying here and the crux of what I'm saying here is, you know, the point I made earlier that people of all sizes deserve compassionate, good, equal access to health care, which really, I would hope that most, yeah, doctors are on board with, members of the caring profession would be behind.But yeah, so the presentation went well and, you know, people came to speak to me afterwards and said, it kind of made them think, and they'd be really interested in knowing a little bit more. So that was positive. I mean, as GPs, the idea that weight loss isn't sustainable is something that we see day in, day out. And so I don't think that's too difficult for GPs to get behind. Laura: Okay. And just to kind of expand on that point a little bit, because I know we've, we've talked around this idea that diets don't work. And again, I'll link to a piece that I wrote about the diet cycle and, and this sort of why diets don't work, but just to give like a really quick overview of what the weight science literature tells us is essentially there are – and this is simplifying things, and Molly, feel free to jump in and like expand on anything I'm saying, but what happens when we go on a diet is sort of twofold. First of all, so we reduce the amount of food that we're consuming, right? That's the fundamental premise of any diet. They all work the same way, right? ‘Work' initially, at least initially. So you might initially see a little bit of. of weight loss, but then your body starts responding to that by dialling up your hunger and appetite hormones, because what it's trying to do is defend your genetically determined set point weight, right?This blueprint that we have for…I like to think of it as a kind of comfortable zone that our bodies will, like, prefer to be in because there's usually always some fluctuation within that, right? Like our weight just kind of goes up and down on its own through various, you know, stages of life. But overall it likes to stay within a window, shall we say.If we're trying to push it down below that comfortable window, our body will respond by amping up hunger and appetite hormones to drive up our appetite, to get us up off of our asses to go and find some food, right? Like it's an evolutionary mechanism. So that's why you kind of end up diving headfirst into a bread basket or, you know, I always say like you find yourself elbow deep in a tube of Pringles if you're, if you're on a diet, like that, that's what can happen. And it's because there are these biological mechanisms driving that. If for some reason you are able to kind of ride that out, you maybe develop some unhealthy coping mechanisms to sort of essentially ignore your hunger, then what can happen is that your body has another mechanism to try and make up for that, which is to slow down your metabolism. Right, so it can kind of…either you can get more food to defend your set point weight, or all the functions in your body can sort of slow down. It often starts with what are considered non essential functions, like reproduction. So you might notice that you're, if you're menstruating, that your period becomes irregular, your hair might kind of become less thick, your nails might get, I mean, your skin might get a bit dull, but then because your body can't sort of say, okay, turn off this system, but leave all the other ones on, you'll notice it kind of like playing out in, in other areas.So somewhere that I see kind of play out a lot is digestion, which I think we can all agree is an essential function, but you start to notice, you might notice it as like IBS type symptoms, constipation, bloating, diarrhoea, all of these things can be a function of not having enough to eat. So, as your metabolism is slowing down, you will obviously get this plateau in weight loss or your weight might start to increase or you could have both things happening kind of simultaneously where your metabolism is dialling down and then at the same time your hunger hormones are dialling up so you have what I call ‘the fuck it effect' where you know it's like the floodgates open and you're just raiding the fridge. And it's kind of funny but also it's a really distressing experience for people sometimes, if you don't understand what's going on, which is…it's your primal biological urge to eat is kind of overtaking you and you were just trying to meet your needs however you want, but it can feel really chaotic and out of control and oftentimes we label it as like food addiction or comfort eating sometimes, or like, yeah, we pathologise it somehow, even when that's not really what's going on.So that was…more of a detour than I wanted to go on, but I thought it was important to explain a little bit of the mechanics as to why diets don't work. Did you have anything you wanted to add to that, Molly?Molly: No, I think you have summarised that perfectly. My headline would be, bodies are very clever, don't underestimate them.Laura: Absolutely. Yeah, that is a way better way of putting it. But so, medical colleagues, they don't have too much difficulty understanding or kind of appreciating that weight loss is not sustainable. So they see that day to day in their practice. So they…it's an easy sell? Molly: Yes, it's an easy sell. Exactly. Laura: When you kind of go back and fill in, like, some of the stuff that probably should have been taught in medical school, but for whatever reason wasn't…I say probably should have been taught. I mean, definitely should have been taught in medical school, but wasn't. What other kinds of, like, questions or what things did you come up against when having these conversations with colleagues?Molly: So yeah, that is an easy sell. The harder sell is around the idea that, well, ‘ob*sity' being a thing and, you know, it's associated co-morbidities. Also, what is tricky…so even after I'd kind of finished the talk and had a conversation about it, the conversation turned to, but we do need to think about how safe it is to refer somebody with a BMI of over 30 for any replacement.So, you know, the kind of idea that the research that is at the core of, you know, our approaches and the weight centric approach is full of bias and quite frankly, fat phobia. And that's when I start to feel very conspiratorial, which I hate.Laura: I know exactly what you mean. Yeah.Molly: But I think it's a, you know, it's a really important part of the puzzle, and people really need to appreciate that, that actually research, you know, I think Fiona Willer described it as “a persuasive piece of writing”, which I think's a really important way to look at it, because that's what, you know, research really is. And that, you know, people are generally trying to prove a point when they start a piece of research. And because we live in this inherently fat phobic society, people are generally trying to prove that fat is bad.Laura: And so what you're saying is there, and there's a great paper that explores this, there's a BMJ paper that explores all the underlying assumptions in weight research, all these biases that Molly is describing.They filter through into the research that we get. So it becomes this like, circular, like, self fulfilling kind of thing, where we are looking for problems with higher weight and worse health outcomes. So we find them, right? Like it becomes this yeah, very… Molly: Confirmation bias. Laura: Exactly. That's, that's the right word I was looking for.So I'll link to a couple of papers that for anyone, for like medical students or even nutrition, any allied health professionals who are interested in learning more about this, because it's a lot to kind of take in. And we're, I feel like just getting to the tip of the iceberg here. Thank you for reading Can I Have Another Snack?. This post is public so feel free to share it.Molly: And I guess the other point to make about the research as well that people really need to appreciate is that it's, you know, I've said before, but it's really complex.And so, you know, let's take the example of post operative complications of a knee replacement. And by the way, I haven't really done a deep dive on this, so….I'm just kind of using it as an example rather than it being something I know a lot about, but, you know, let's imagine that there is an increased association between post operative complications in somebody with a high BMI after a knee replacement.Is that as simple as a person's fat and therefore they're going to be at risk of post operative complications, or is it that they are really stressed in a hospital because they know that they're going to be made to feel bad about their body size? Is it that they didn't have the right equipment available to carry out the operation or to, you know, anesthetise that person? Is it that anti fat bias has played a part in the treatment that they've received post operatively? We really, really need to be digging deeper and looking at the complexities around these kind of headlines that form the part of, yeah, our management.Laura: So yeah, what you, what you're talking about there is the sort of potential confounding variables that don't get measured for, that help explain the relationship between X and Y.Yeah. But we just…we see the X and the Y and we don't see all the – this is a terrible analogy – all the other letters, but we're looking for cause and effect, but we're not actually looking at all the other complicating factors that might result in that outcome. I think. Because our, like, primal monkey brains love simple explanations for things, right? They don't want things to be complicated, but they are way more complicated than they first seem. So, last thing I want to ask you about is...Whether you have any advice for medical students or even physicians who are bumping up against anti fat bias, either in their training or with their colleagues?Molly: Well, I guess I really hope there are people in the medical profession listening to this who do share our beliefs and, you know, I'd love to hear from you because solidarity is really important. You know, it can feel quite lonely. I guess my advice would be to kind of stick to your guns and hold on to those values and know that you are keeping people safe and you will mean that people feel able to come and see you who wouldn't otherwise have felt safe coming to see you. And that's really important. And you know, when I'm doubting myself or feeling a bit exhausted by swimming against the tide, what I tell myself is, well, let's think about the alternative. And the alternative is not something that I can entertain. In terms of conversations with colleagues, I mean, podcasts, I really find useful as a way of kind of signposting people to snippets of information and also talking about yourself. So, you know, people are more receptive if you kind of critique your own bias as opposed to critiquing theirs.Laura: Yeah, exactly.Molly: So, you know. A conversation like, you know, I'm thinking about a medical student sat in clinic with somebody saying something like, ‘Oh, I've been thinking about my own anti-fat bias, or I've been thinking about weight stigma and how I might be contributing to that and how that's something I'd really like to address'. You know, that kind of thing just plants that seed, doesn't it? And means that, whether they react perfectly in the moment may mean that that person then has to think about it themselves and reflects on it themselves and does a bit of reading.Laura: Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And you can always, you know, if they are open to, to reading more, like, like I said, you could, I'll link to some papers that you could share with them doing a journal club around those papers or like you did, Molly, a presentation that can also be ways to open up conversations within a department or you know, a university setting or something like that, where you can all be kind of working through some of this stuff together, rather than sort of siloed on, on your own. Because I think it can feel really lonely if you're the only little salmon swimming upstream.Molly: It's really hard work, isn't it? Really hard work being the pariah.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. But I'm really grateful for everything that you're doing. And you know, even if we don't change anyone else's minds, just the fact that you're showing up for your patients the way that you are is so important. So yeah, thank you for that work. At the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been snacking on. It could be anything you like, a show, a podcast, an actual little snack. So what have you been snacking on lately, Molly?Molly: So I have a television show that I've been watching that I'm actually able to share. I have a very specific criteria when it comes to television shows that I'm willing to watch because I'm such an empath that I can't bear watching anything that involves, you know, people being treated badly or humiliated or murdered, you know, anything like that. No, and it also has to be very relatable. I can't, my brain just cannot, you know, get into kind of wizardry and magicians and stuff. I have been watching Couples Therapy, which is a documentary on BBC iPlayer, which films couples going through therapy. And it's like reality TV, but without the vacuous….Laura: The drama. Yeah, okay.Molly: Yeah. And yeah, without the drama. So, I mean, there is drama, but it's a really kind of measured drama, and I just love watching the process. I love seeing the dynamic and seeing how it all pans out. I think the therapist is amazing. Oh. And it's fascinating. Laura: So these are real, these are real therapy sessions? They've not been staged?Molly: They've not. No. No.Laura: Oh wow. It's wild. It's real. I have no idea how they got that through any kind of ethics, but…Molly: Yeah. Yeah. Good point. But it's, but it's…Laura: I mean, it sounds interesting. Who doesn't want to listen in to other people's therapy sessions? Molly: Yeah. I mean, I didn't watch it thinking, oh gosh, I feel really bad that this person is doing this on didn't, it didn't feel like that. It actually felt really, you know, therapeutic.Laura: Like I did a documentary with BBC. a long time ago now and there was like a clinical psychologist on the support staff team so I figure that there has to be like someone…that person who's, yeah, just like making sure everything is contained and everyone is safe and yeah like, yeah, no one is, like, baring their soul on national TV who is gonna regret that they said those things. So that sounds really interesting. Okay, so my snack is sort of, I think, well, really related to what we have been talking about. So the book that I have been reading at the moment is called Sugar Rush: Science, Politics, and the Demonization of Fatness. It's by Karen Throsby, who is a sociologist and it is a bit more on the academic side, but it is so fascinating.Basically what she's done is a content analysis of like 500 odd different newspaper articles and books from about, I think just before the implementation of the sugar tax, or maybe when the sugar tax was being debated, all the way through to like 2020 with Boris Johnson's latest round of anti ‘ob*sity' policy.She's just tracing kind of like the history of the sugar tax and the way that the media talks about it and some like key anti sugar figures and some of the, like, the rhetoric around sugar and how it has been kind of like socially constructed. And it's also linking it to the demonization of fatness as, yeah, the subtitle suggests.But what I found really interesting is just how she talks a lot about these ideas that are written into policy documents that are so kind of assertive and confident and definitive that are the similar things that you and I have been talking about in this podcast about the relationship between weight and health that are just in all of these policy documents are just like, like, given at face value and there's no further sort of exploration of the science and I'm only kind of the first couple of chapters, but I'm really enjoying it.It's really good. It appeals to my, like, super nerdy nutrition brain where I want to understand the trajectory of all of these policies and how they all kind of interlink and build on one another. And it also has a fair amount of Jamie Oliver bashing. So I'm here for that. So yeah, Sugar Rush by Karen Throsby. So I will link to Couple's Therapy. Is that the name of your show? Couple's Therapy on iPlayer and Sugar Rush in the show notes. All right, Molly, before I let you go, can you let everyone know where they can find out more about you and your work?Molly: So I am on Instagram as @antidietGP, um, similarly on Facebook as Anti Diet GP. Be great to see you there. Laura: All right, I will link to both of those in the show notes so people can come find you and yeah, let us know what you think of this episode and thank you so much again for your work, Molly. It was really good to talk to you. Molly: Oh, thank you.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today.  Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI last week: When Your Friend Announces They're on a Diet… * Rapid Response: Why I don't like ‘this food does a little/this food does a lot'* Dear Laura... How do I stop wishing for the past and accept myself now?* Bandit Standing on the Scales is Not Even the Worst Part of Bluey This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

In today's CIHAS episode, I'm speaking to online personal trainer and performance nutritionist, Michael Ulloa. Michael is on a mission to make the fitness industry a more welcoming and accepting space for all, which is exactly what we dive into in this ‘sode. We are unpacking some toxic myths about exercise, Michael spills the beans on his feelings about Joe Wicks, and we discuss what really goes into professional fitness models' photo shoots. Plus we answer loads of your questions like how to find a more joyful relationship with movement after a lifetime of using it as punishment for eating. Find out more about Michael's work here.Follow his work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTRO:Michael: The way that we're being sold health and fitness just isn't sustainable or achievable in any way and then people blame themselves and feel worse and then therefore they're more likely to spend money on all these other programs repeatedly and it's just a vicious cycle that just doesn't ever end.Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast, where we talk about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas. I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter. Today, I'm talking to Michael Ulloa.Michael is an online personal trainer and performance nutritionist who is on a mission to make the fitness industry a more welcoming and accepting space for all. In today's episode, Michael and I are shooting the shit about the fitness industry, unpacking some toxic myths about exercise, and answering loads of your questions: like how to find a more joyful relationship with movement after a lifetime of using it as punishment for eating.Some of you have been asking for more episodes on movement and fitness, so I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. We'll get to Michael in just a second, but first, I want to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter and community.For just £5 a month, or £50 a year, you get access to the extended CIHAS universe. That means exclusive weekly discussion threads, links and recommendations, you get commenting privileges and access to my monthly Dear Laura column, as well as the whole CIHAS archive and a few other sweet perks, but more than anything, you're supporting independent evidence based nutrition information free from diet culture and anti fatness. I can't do this work without the help of paying subscribers. So if you get something out of being here, then please consider upgrading your subscription today. And if you're still not convinced, then check out this recent review I received from a reader. They said: "Laura's podcast and newsletter are always thought provoking, filled with care and compassion, and a respite from one size fits all health and nutrition advice."So if that sounds good to you, then head to laurathomas.substack.com and become a paying subscriber today. Alright team, let's get to today's episode, here's Michael. MAIN EPISODE:All right, Michael, I need to know what the deal is. Because you're like one of maybe five PTs who isn't pushing aesthetic or weight loss goals on us.Has that always been your deal? Or is this more of an evolution for you? Michael: Yeah, it's definitely an evolution and it's funny you mentioned that because I get a lot of angry messages from personal trainers that don't think that my approach is right, which is always quite funny to me. I don't know, it's, I definitely, when I first started off in the fitness industry... I've been a personal trainer now for nearly 10 years.And in terms of personal training, that kind of makes you a bit of a veteran because a lot of trainers are quite short lived on average. When I first started off, I definitely did have your typical, like, mainstream slightly bro approach to fitness and nutrition. And I know most people that maybe work in the kind of space that, like, you operate in, for example, there tends to usually be a reason or a thing that caused them to go down that path.But I didn't have that at all. It really has just been a really slow evolution of just actually reading the research, working with people on a day to day basis, getting feedback from clients about what is working and what isn't, and then just really tweaking things over a very long period of time. I've also had some very honest clients, which have been great too, who kind of really follow my content on social media and they would message me like, oh, that's not very helpful. How about approaching it like this? And i'm always open to feedback, I always want to improve my practice and my messaging and I was always just quite receptive to that and I don't know... 10 years later I now finally feel like i'm working with people in a way that genuinely helps them long term and i'm actually creating content that is useful for people rather than just almost creating content for other personal trainers, which seems to be what a lot of fitness professionals do.Laura: Tell me about the angry messages. Why are other PTs up in your shit about...? Michael: I really don't know. I wish I knew the answer. I think... I guess if you're attacking someone's entire being and their work and their ethos that they've believed in for so many years, then I guess that a lot of people will react to that in quite a negative way.I really don't understand it at all either. Usually male coaches too, are very angry in the way that I approach social media and some of the names and things I've been called are pretty grim, but I only... I wish I knew the answer to that, but some, for some reason people get very angry in the way that I am approaching fitness and nutrition.But yeah, I really don't mind. Like I, as I said, I feel like I'm really helping people now and I'm happy to keep championing that message. Laura: I mean, I'm just wondering if part of it is because that myth, certain myth of no pain, no gain. And that you need to like, basically punish yourself with exercise in order to achieve a particular body type.You're saying, actually, we don't need to do that. It's okay if you don't kill yourself with exercise. We shouldn't be weaponising it against ourselves. For me, it speaks to how deeply internalised people's anti fat bias is. You're challenging the fundamental sort of premise that their beliefs are resting on, which is that, you can't be fit and fat.Or you...yeah, like I said before, that you have to punish yourself with exercise or like that... it's somehow okay to exist in a body that isn't fulfilling this ideal that we have been told that we should not strive for. Michael: Completely. And I mean, if we're completely honest about it, the way that the fitness industry is set up now is way more profitable for these people too.So if you do start attacking the way that they're approaching their lives or their businesses too, then they're probably going to be a little bit grumpy about that. It's so much easier for me as a personal trainer to make money saying, here we go, come sign up for the six week program and we'll strip body fat off you in such a short space of time, rather than me saying, cool, let's work together for three, six, 12 months. And let's really work on those habits and have you feeling and performing better. Like it's just such a hard sell. I mean, especially for, as I mentioned, like, personal training tends to be quite a short lived career for a lot of people. And I appreciate that when people first start off, the best way to get clients is shock and awe, like showing before and after photos, like having the secrets or whatever it is. And the best way to get clients at the start is by doing that. So people are going to follow that path rather than doing it the right way. That is a bit of a slow burner. I know that a lot of coaches aren't really up for that, sadly. Laura: Yeah, no, I think you make a really good point when you're talking about... the financial aspect of things, because, yeah, there's no money to be made in being like, yeah, take a rest day or go for a gentle walk and look at the sky. Yeah, those like making huge promises of around body transformations and then making people sign up for some sort of like intensive bootcamp situation. Of course, that makes sense from like a business model perspective, but as so often is the case, anything that involves capitalism is probably not great for our health overall. Okay, so I am absolutely not in the fitness space at all. I've purged my social media account. I think I follow you and maybe a couple of other personal trainers, because I find it really annoying, honestly, watching fitness content.Michael: I strongly relate to that. And first of all, thank you for following me, but yeah, I honestly, I feel exactly the same way.  Laura: And I think, especially since having had a baby and because I have some enduring physical stuff going on as a result of my pregnancy in terms of, like, pelvic health, even the stuff that is like geared towards women who have had babies and like postpartum stuff.It's just anyway, so I've just checked out of it. So I have no idea. What is going on in that space, really? So I need you to like, translate it all for me. What are some of the most pervasive and toxic fitness myths that you're seeing at the moment? Michael: Everything. Honestly, every topic is so toxic at the moment.It's really frustrating. And I speak to... There's a few coaches that I'm really good friends with, who I think you probably know as well, that I tend to follow their content, I like engaging with them and talking about the fitness industry, but I have also removed myself from a lot of the mainstream approach because...I don't find it motivating or helpful in any way. Like I think a lot of the... Laura: You don't even hate follow some people just to have like stuff to...? Because I hate feed a lot of big feeding. I hate-feed?! I hate-follow a lot of big accounts. I just have this folder on my Instagram called Ammunition.And I just save posts in there that I want to come back and get angry about at some point. What are you seeing from... I know you do it! But what are you seeing from those folks? Michael: So I do a little bit of that. And I, so I've also, I've got an Instagram account for my dog, but I started up ages ago. I don't post anything to it, but every time I see something pop up on, like, the explore page or I see another trainer share, I'll send it to her account. And then I'll use that as fodder for, like, creating content and coming up with ideas. But I do not, I don't hate follow that many people now because like I spent a lot of time on social media, right?And I know that because of that following these accounts and seeing them on a day to day basis all of the time does massively negatively impact my mental health. And I think if i'm feeling that way as a fitness professional who knows the research, knows what these accounts are doing to us and can see through the nonsense... how are everyday people feeling? When they're seeing this content and they don't really know if it's the truth or not. So I actually don't follow that many trainers. There's probably a lot of trainers who... . Laura: So very evolved of you. Michael: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. There's a few trainers who, like, I know through just from working in gyms or whatever, I'll follow them, but I mute them so that I don't have to see their content.Laura: Yeah, that's smart. Michael: But yeah, I don't know. There's so many myths about every topic. Like you mentioned there about, like, women's health and pelvic health and anything pre and postnatal. The stuff around that is really gross because it's not even just the fact that they're spreading misinformation. They somehow always tie in with just losing weight, like this is pretty much what it all comes down to, right? Laura: Yeah. Yeah. That's the subtext. It's always there. Michael: It's always like improve your pelvic health and slim your waist, like it's everything. It just pushes people down the route of still obsessing about body weight and focusing on body weight rather than focusing on general health and wellbeing and health promotion, and it's infuriating.I guess the same as, like, building muscle. Like it's nearly always advertised by these guys that are absolutely jacked, clearly taking steroids, using images of themselves going... you can look like this if you work out like me and buy my programs and my nutrition plans, and you're just never going to look like these people. So you're always going to fail. Like everything within the fitness space is geared towards repeat sales and having people come back for more because the way that we're being sold health and fitness, just isn't sustainable or achievable in any way. And then people blame themselves and feel worse. And then therefore they're more likely to spend money on all these other programs repeatedly. And it's just a vicious cycle that just doesn't ever end. And that's why with my page, I'm trying to step away from any aesthetic goals. Like you'll probably see through my social media, I don't, I'm not against people having aesthetic goals. I just don't really ever talk about it because I don't think it should ever be the focus of someone's fitness journey. I mean, I think that's the bit that seems to piss people off. Laura: Yeah. And I mean, there's some interesting research that shows that people who exercise for aesthetic goals, they're less likely to engage in something that is sustainable for them.Like, it's more likely that they will give up. And I don't mean that in, like, defeatist kind of way, but it just won't be sustainable for them. Versus for people who are approaching, I don't know, a type of exercise or training or whatever it is from a place of maybe wanting to feel stronger or feel more comfortable in their bodies or because they have mobility stuff that they're working through or something like that.So it's really difficult though, because And we'll get to some of the listener questions in a bit where they're asking this, like, how do you uncouple the aesthetic goals from, those more internally motivated goals from the perspective that we are just constantly being drip fed, idealised images of people all over the internet? And then, like you say, half the time those images aren't even real, right? There's people on ‘roids. There are people who are like starving themselves, like making themselves dehydrated, like posing in particular ways. I don't even know what other tactics people use to stylise these images.But I feel like the sort of falsification of these pictures is huge in the fitness industry. Michael: It's honestly horrific. And I would probably go as far as to say, like, every professional fitness model has taken or is taking steroids of some form. That's like the level of manipulation that the fitness industry...I don't know, I don't think there's any issue with... having aesthetic goals. Like I always like to hammer this point home because I think sometimes with my content, I can... people misconstrue that I'm against anyone having any aesthetic goal at all. I'm not, it's just, I think that the emphasis needs to be elsewhere.For example, when I first started in the fitness industry, I was in that loop of must build muscle, have to build muscle to show that I know what I'm talking about and also to be seen as manly and capable or whatever, and I would do a lot of strength training. I would never do cardio because cardio is bad.It ruins your gains. Laura: It's for girls.Michael: Yeah, it's just exactly that. And it's so frustrating that I would... I spent years just, like, strength training, nothing but strength training, even when I was going through cycles of really hating it. Like I had to do strength training, got to build muscle. When I switched up my training... I still do strength training now. I enjoy building muscle. The challenge of building strength and muscle is really fun, but I also do a lot of cardio because I really enjoy it and it makes me feel great in terms of physical and mental health. And actually since switching up, dropping a bit of strength training that I was doing and doing more cardio, the exercise I really enjoy, I've made so much more progress with my strength building and muscle building gains.And I've just got such a better balance with it all. So if someone listening to this is really struggling of knowing like what they should really be doing, what should they be focusing on? Honestly, just like enjoyment and mental health, that needs to be the priority. And then everything else just tends to fall into line after that.And the fitness industry, just the tactics, as I said, like the trainers use. The one thing that really annoys me is a lot of personal trainers will, anyone who follows any trainers will... I've seen this in the past where a trainer goes through a really extreme cycle of dieting, exercise regime because they're training for a photo shoot - in quotation marks - Where they'll go and get professional photos done that they've dieted down to within an inch of their lives. And they'll get a little snapshot image of look how amazing I look and then they'll use that in all their advertising of promoting healthy behaviour change or whatever other nonsense. It's if you're not using healthy, sustainable habits in achieving your physique, then you should not be allowed to use that in terms of advertising it to say that you're going to help people improve their health and their life, their health and their lives.It's just, it's incredibly infuriating and... Laura: it's false advertising. Michael: Massively. Yeah. Massively. Laura: Need to get that fucking, is it ASA, advertising...? Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Standards Agency. Absolutely. Yeah. Laura: I'm on the case! But two interesting things that I wanted to pick out from what you were saying.First of all, I think there's some complexity and nuance around this idea aesthetic goals, isn't there? Because we are all aesthetically driven, right? We are all, like we're aesthetic creatures in some ways, like when you brush your hair in the morning or I don't know, you trim your beard, Michael, or like I chose clothes that I thought looked somewhat okay together. Like those are all aesthetic goals, right? And so I think it's really, like, hard for people to decouple aesthetic goals from their overall movement, exercise routines, whatever you want to call them. But I think what you're saying, and certainly what I would advocate is that the fitness industry has just blown... yeah, they've blown up aesthetics to be like the sole purpose that people should exercise, right? And that I think is the problem is that yeah, they've just coupled exercise and aesthetics to the point that it's like you were saying, people are engaging in disorderly eating behaviours. They're using illicit drugs, they are, like, punishing themselves to look a particular way, and that's when it becomes problematic, right? Michael: Completely agree. Laura: And you end up on that slippery, slippery slope to disordered eating and eating disorders. Michael: Yeah, it's so true the barometer of success or health or knowledge within the fitness industry is body fat levels. That's pretty much what it all comes down to. Like a trainer who is absolutely jacked and really ripped is seen as being an authority figure without really knowing anything about them. And whereas you'll have a trainer who's in maybe a naturally larger sized body who naturally carries a little bit more body fat, has a much healthier balance of exercise and nutrition, a far better trainer. Just look at the comments under the content that they push out there onto social media and people will criticize them and say they don't know what they're talking about. Like our barometer of success is leanness. I don't know what the answer is to trying to combat that other than just keep churning out content, calling out this nonsense.But unfortunately you feel like you take a few steps forward when it was like two, three years ago, when you see, started to see a lot more body diversity on fitness accounts and kind of big companies like Gymshark and Nike and stuff were using people in larger bodies to advertise clothing.That's now disappearing again because it's no longer.... and it's just toxic. And you just have to go on like TikTok, the latest platform, even though it's been around a few years, I felt like we were maybe making a bit of progress. Then TikTok just flips that again, and you just got to search the hashtag fitness on TikTok.And it's just white, slim, muscular people clearly taking steroids that are the main bulk of the content that you're going to see. It's infuriating. Laura: Everyone in the fitness industry really collectively needs to be speaking out against this, but I think there's a simultaneous thing that has to happen whereby we are amplifying and centering experiences and the work of fat fitness creators, right? And I'm using fat, for anyone who's not listened to the podcast before, fat as a neutral descriptor, as a reclamation of a word that is often used to weaponise and hurt people and harm people. So, yeah, I'm just thinking of some people off the top of my head.Like Intuitive Fatty, Jessamyn Stanley is fantastic for yoga content. Lauren Leavell does a lot of barre stuff, but there's loads. I mean, is there anyone that you would want to give a shout out to like anyone that's doing...? Michael: The Instagram handle Decolonizing Fitness? Ilya. The content is amazing. We're trying to set up a time for Ilya to come into our podcast to chat about this at the moment. And I just... there's so many voices that need to be amplified. And I know that I always have to check my privilege in the content that I'm creating. Like you see very few men within the kind of body neutrality, body positivity, space, whatever you want to call the area I'm working in.So I always like to acknowledge that, okay, I'm creating content for a space that isn't really for me, but I do think that can be really powerful. And we still need more voices of guys, especially within this space, calling it out because I rarely ever see male fitness professionals creating the kind of content that I am.They tend to go down the more mainstream approach. And I like to yes, fitness can look like me. I look how the fitness industry says you're supposed to look, but it doesn't have to look like that, right? This is one way it can look, but it doesn't need to be like that for everyone. And I think that can be really powerful whilst amplifying the voices of those who are marginalised and don't get the airtime that I do.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, you make a really good point about men in this space. Like just in body neutrality, body positivity and again, there are some really great people doing stuff in that space. I agree like it's still underrepresented, but like the 300 pound runner. I don't know if you've come across his stuff? Michael: yeah, Martinus Evans.Laura: Yeah, His stuff is really cool as well. But yeah, anyway, just wanted to shout out some accounts and I'll link to them in the show notes as well. Yeah, so you mentioned that fitness professionals will embark on this really extreme diet, they will really bulk up, they'll, probably restrict what they're eating for a really long time, and then they'll do all their photos, and they'll probably go back to whatever they were doing before that. And it just reminded me when... and this is it's like really sad, but do you remember when Joe Wicks was talking all about binging? He went to America, and then it ... he just started talking about like he was eating all this chocolate and pizza and like stuff that he obviously was restricting so hard that when he went to the States, he had this like backlash against all of that and his body was just like, fuck this, and he just started eating like all of the food that he'd been denying himself.It just made me think of that and how he's... how disordered like this space is and how normalised that kind of thing is like that just like binge restrict cycle. Michael: Yeah, I mean when your entire business model relies on getting people really lean. If you're not sticking to those rules and keeping your body lean 100 percent of the time, then your business model kind of goes to shit. And I guess that's probably why he was having issues coming to terms with that. Joe Wicks is a really funny one because I don't like his content at all. I'll throw that out there. Some of the nutrition stuff he's spouted has been... I was going to say nonsense, but it's actually just damaging some of the stuff he comes out with.Also, on the other hand, I feel like, maybe this is giving him too much credit, I always feel like his heart is in the right place, but he just goes about it in completely the wrong way. I don't know if you would agree with that. When I hear him being interviewed, I feel like he's a really passionate guy who feels like he's doing the right thing, but he's just absolutely not.Because all of his content is focused on being lean and weight loss. And I just wish that... he's got such a huge platform now. It's terrifying. That if you had someone like him who could start promoting like a balanced and sensible message, it's never going to happen because he makes too much money now, then it would just be so powerful.Laura: But I don't know, like this piece around heart in the right place. I think we say that about a lot of these actually quite problematic white men. Joe Wicks, Jamie Oliver, I'm just gonna say it, don't @ me. But, of course their heart's in the right place, but their heart's also in their fucking bank balance, right?Michael: Completely, 100%. Laura: So that's one part of it, but also, I don't know when we can, when someone is, like you say, promoting harmful messages around food and around nutrition. And I don't. I think it matters where their heart is. Michael: Agreed. I wonder whether this... Laura: A murderer could use that justification to be like, Oh, well, this man is really toxic to women, so I'm just going to kill him.But that's not the solution. Michael: I know. I wonder whether kind of in my head, the reason I use those words is because I think of kind of the fitness industry as like a huge, like a line of like how problematic someone is. And I feel like he feels he's trying to do the right thing despite doing it very badly.Whereas you have a lot of people within the fitness space that go far beyond that, who are intentionally doing the really bad thing, trying to make a lot of money, it's still very bad. And Jamie Oliver is one of those as well, where he's got such a huge platform, thinks he knows what he's doing is the best thing, but it's just not. Like trying to ban the buy one get one free offers when people are really struggling to feed their families right now.It's just, I feel yes, hearts in the right place, but just no, like they need to be more informed and go about it in a better way. Laura: And especially when they are being given this feedback, right? Like it's one thing if you fuck up and you say, I was really wrong about that and I've learned some new information now like you have, right? And like I have. And you hold your hands up and you say, yeah, I was really fucking wrong and I'm sorry that I've caused harm and I don't want to do that anymore. I'm gonna learn and I'm gonna do better. And Michael: that's the sign of a good practitioner, right? And yeah. Laura: But speaking of Joe Wicks... Michael: Oh god!Laura: So, so you are a new ish parent, right? You have a seven month old. Michael: Yes, my son is seven months old, yeah. Laura: How do you feel about the prospect of Joe Wicks teaching your kid PE someday? Michael: Oh, just no, like awful. Yeah it's terrifying, isn't it? And these people do wangle their way into every aspect of our society of fitness.And there's just no getting away from them now. Personally, I never watched any of his school fitness things throughout lockdown. I know they're very popular. What was his wording? Did you watch any of them then with your kids? Laura: I didn't cause my little one was just a newborn at that point. And he's only three now.It just wasn't on my radar. I've seen his books. He has the burpee bears. And I've written a couple of like book reviews. They're super like, just tongue in cheek. But it strikes me as really problematic that he feels that we need to teach specific moves like burpees or other things like that to children, like to young children, like primary school age kids, and I don't really have a good justification for that because I'm not a fitness professional that other than does a five year old need to learn how to plank? Right? Or should we not be focusing on embodied movement that is climbing on play equipment in the playground or running or skipping or jumping or like, all of these things that kids, depending on their level of mobility and ability that they would intuitively do?Michael: I am completely with you there. I don't think we need to be teaching a five year old how to do a burpee. It's a bit ridiculous, to be honest. Yeah, that's the way that movement should be promoted and advertised to kids, if you want to use those kind of technical terms. It should just be about play and fun and movement, and that's... what it should be. Like if a kid sees their parent doing burpees or lifting weights and they want to try a bit out and get involved yeah, absolutely. But it just, it shouldn't be the go to, right? Yeah, absolutely. Laura: Yeah. My kid has seen me do a downward dog and he like gets involved and we do the cosmic kids yoga. I feel like that's a slightly different thing because it's a, it's so gentle and b it's animal poses. I don't know. All right. So I got sent through loads of questions from listeners and I thought they were really fun. So I just thought we could go through them. I think we've touched on a bit of it already, but maybe you can just give me your quick fire answers.Michael: Sure. Yeah. Laura: So this is an interesting question that Gwen from Dieticians for Teachers sent in. She said she would like to know more about the messages in your formal training. I think we can take a good guess, but I guess what she's getting at is, like, what toxic messages were in your formal training?Michael: Unfortunately, when you're learning to become a personal trainer still so much of it is about weight loss, still. You'll get taught, right, this is what we're going to learn about nutrition and this is how you help someone lose weight. So that is still at the core. And I guess a lot of the training for personal trainers, in terms of nutrition anyway, It's still very like basic government guidelines, which you can take those as you will. Some recommendations are maybe okay, others not that helpful. The training for nutrition for personal trainers is so, so, so, so basic that I would encourage any personal trainer who has recently qualified and not done any further nutrition study from there to please sign up to another course and learn more because what you learn as a personal trainer at the basic level is just nowhere near good enough to work with clients in depth.Laura: I have a lot of thoughts about personal trainers and nutrition, but I'm going to keep them to myself! Michael: No, no feel free to talk about it! It terrifies me. And it's very rare now that... a lot of the people I work with have had personal trainers in the past. The large majority of them have had negative experiences, and it's quite scary that's now just the norm.And I'll ask questions of my clients in consultations whilst working together and they'll be like, Oh, I've never been asked that before. I've never even considered that. And it just blows my mind that these things are being missed out or neglected by coaches. But the training is just not there. Laura: It's so interesting that the focus, I mean, it's not surprising, but that the focus is still on body size and not like flexibility or mobility or like rehab or like any of these, which I'm sure they like get touched on, but it sounds like from what you're saying that the real central focus is not mental health or like overall wellbeing. It's here's how you try and get people shredded, which we know is like biogenetically, if not difficult, if not impossible for most people. Michael: Pretty much. Yeah. Like I'm sure... I don't want to call out every personal training course. Like I did qualify a few years ago now, but I know there's some personal training qualifications that are trying to shift that, but it is still a large majority.And that is why a lot of the coaches coming through now, it's still very much before and after photos, weight centric. Yeah, unfortunately. Laura: Well, it's good to know that maybe there are some shifts coming down the pipe a little bit and I guess it just goes to show why again, you need to keep, like, pushing these alternative messages.Okay. This I thought was a really interesting question. And so this person asked, is exercise truly necessary? I don't enjoy exercising, but I do move a lot during the day, running errands and running after a toddler, all while baby wearing a newborn. And then the follow up question is, and if it is necessary to exercise intentionally, what form of exercise is best for someone who wouldn't otherwise prioritise it? Michael: That's such a good question. And it's very nuanced as well, depending on the person's situation. I would say, I mean, no, it's not necessary if you're moving around a lot throughout the day. However, so many health benefits come from incorporating some form of like direct exercise that it would be really sad to not explore all the potential areas that people could incorporate exercise into their life that maybe might not be the mainstream approach, right? If you are someone who moves around a lot throughout your day, if you say running errands and your general movement and step count is actually really high, then you could argue that as long as you get your nutrition, right, you're doing pretty well.However, strength training. Every time someone comes to me, no matter what their fitness goals are, I try and incorporate some form of strength training that I can, but that can take so many different forms. Laura: This person is carrying a baby around! Michael: Right. Yeah, exactly. Which is strength training, right?Exactly. So it's... when I say strength training, a lot of people listening to this episode right now will automatically... they'll think, like, gym, barbells, dumbbells, heavy weights, and it can come in so many different forms and it can be with resistance bands, body weight, dumbbells, kettlebells, barbells at home. It can be like TRX, it can be like so many different ways that you might enjoy at some point. So don't just think, Oh, I'm not an exercise-y person. I've always hated it because there are so many different ways that we can incorporate exercise. That is a very vague answer. without me knowing much more about this person. However, if you can find a form of exercise you enjoy, that should be a priority because the health benefits are huge. Laura: I'm going to push back because this is my opinion, not necessarily based on scientific fact, but it does feel as though there is this tendency, and I'm also conscious of your bias as a fitness professional, that exercise is held up as the pinnacle of health.And it's like the one thing that we need to do in order to be healthy. And I'm not disputing that there are health benefits. I also am like curious about the magnitude of those benefits within the broader context of health and health behaviours, but also nesting that within sort of social determinants of health and like, how do we measure the effect size of exercise individually from, I don't know, sleep, other elements of mental health, community? I guess what I'm maybe trying to temper is like that there are so many, like, variables and factors that contribute to someone's overall picture of health and I appreciate that movement can be an important facet of that.Michael: Yeah, no I really like that point because it is so important and I think that's why it's important to approach exercise and hence why I said without knowing more about this person, it's hard to give an exact answer. I think it's important to look at all of those things in terms of context when you're trying to prescribe or recommend exercise to someone, right?Let's say that this person is, they're likely lacking in sleep right now at the moment, right? Because their life is very busy running around after small humans. If that person is exhausted and they have no free time at all. I'm not then going to say, right, you've got to go and exercise 30 minutes a day for three times a week, because it's just not going to be helpful. There's other areas of your lifestyle that we can focus on to improve your health. However, if there is a bit of wiggle room, if you have a bit of time, then maybe there are things that we could explore that you could quite comfortably fit into your day without it taking over your life like a lot of the fitness industry wants us to do. Laura: Yeah. I think that the, maybe the TL;DR there is you don't have to sweat it when you are running around after a small child and doing other, all these other things. But if it feels like it's something that you want to explore, and you're curious to give something a try, then yeah, you could have a think about some gentle movement or something, see how that feels and how that fits in the context of your life But yeah, it's tricky to prescribe something without knowing, yeah knowing someone's life and what they want to get out of it. Michael: So true and you're never gonna know if it was directly the exercise. It could be so many other things that then, yeah, that then causes the health benefit.I would just say, once again, like anecdotally, rather than looking at research, every person that I've worked with that we've tried to think, right, how can we incorporate exercising today in some format? The large majority of the time, everything else feels better and improves as a result.Laura: Yeah, no , it can, it has a knock on effect on like sleep and pain and like all these other things. So, okay. How can I move my body without shame and guilt driving it? These are two separate questions, but I'm just lumping them together, and then this, another person asked, how to find the joy in movement after a life forcing it?Michael: I think first of all, it's really important to, like, vet where you're getting all of your inspiration and information from is a really important one because a lot of the time, if we're following the kind of general societal recommendations when it comes to exercise and nutrition. It's always going to have quite a prescriptive image focused approach to movement.And if you can shift away, like what we spoke about at the start of this, you don't follow many personal trainers because you don't think that they're motivating or helpful to you. They actually just make you feel worse. I'm the same. When I constantly see gym bros. telling me that I have to lift weights X amount of times a week, and I've got to get shredded and have low body fat levels, it has the complete opposite impact on me. So if you can first of all vet where you're getting your information from, that is absolutely huge. And then, yeah, I guess also once again, it's not beating yourself up for having the more mainstream thoughts that you used to have. I know a lot of people when they're trying to shift into kind of taking a more intuitive eating approach or a more intuitive eating approach with like exercise too, as well as nutrition, we can sometimes feel really guilty when we start slipping back into older habits that maybe are slightly disordered.I'm just... like giving yourself a bit of leeway and a bit of space to grow and learn. I'm still doing that. I still probably get things wrong and have room for improvement, but I think by doing that, removing the pressure on yourself can be really helpful. Laura: Yeah. Two things that I might add to that are something that I've explored with clients as part of working on the relationship with food and body and movement often comes up as part of that, we might explore this idea of, what it feels like in your body where you've had a period where you haven't moved at all, right? Maybe it's because you're recovering from an injury or because you just were so burnt out with exercise that you just really didn't move. How did that feel in your body? Did you get any pain or did it feel nice to rest or what was that experience? And then also thinking about periods of your life where maybe you've been really deeply invested in fitness culture. And maybe doing the punishing exercises, maybe also getting injuries because of that, maybe getting ill a lot of the time, maybe losing your period, like all kinds of different things, like different experiences that you could have in your bodies.If you've got that framing of this is what no exercise feels like in my body, and this is what too much feels like in my body, then it can help you explore what some sort of happy balance might feel like. So that's something that I encourage people to think about. And I also just wanted to shout out Tally Rye's Intuitive Movement Journal.It's her book Intuitive Movement as well. It is isn't it? Clients have found that those are helpful resources for navigating stepping back from exercise and just exploring what rest feels like through kind of the framework of, or a similar framework to intuitive being. So if intuitive being resonates with you, then maybe Tally's work will as well. So I'll link to them in the show notes. All right, this will be our last question. And it is: I cut out all deliberate movement for a while, by which I mean, I walk to get places and that's it. I'd like to try some movement. and see how it makes me feel. But where on earth do I even start? Michael: Okay, once again, without a lot of context, this is very hard to give specific advice.So I would say think about where you would feel most comfortable exercising and start from there. So I know that for a lot of people, the gym environment can be incredibly intense and intimidating for many reasons. So if you think that maybe that feels a bit much and it's going to put you off. Let's write that off. Don't do that. So let's think, okay, maybe we could start some movement at home. Is there a form of exercise that you really enjoy? Do you like dancing? Do you like jump rope? Do you like bodyweight workouts? What is it that kind of you think, Oh, actually that sounds quite fun to me and start there.And then let's say that there's so many decent content creators online, depending on what you like that I could recommend. Feel free to reach out and just start from that point. If you're thinking that kind of back to my earlier point that, okay, strength training doesn't have to look like that in the gym. What can it look like? A set of basic resistance bands from Amazon for 10 quid, you've got a gym at home. Like you don't have to go to a gym. There's so many different ways that it could look start from that start from what gives you that, Oh, that's interesting. I might give it a try, and start really, really small and build from there and that's probably the best place to start. Laura: If someone hasn't done much movement other than, like, incidental daily movements for a while... there's obviously a lot of privilege in this question but I'm wondering if you would recommend like doing a couple of one on one sessions with a trainer, like a safe trainer that could help build up strength or make like a bespoke kind of program for someone or just help them with their form so that they... I'm maybe thinking of myself here, but I know that I have to be really careful what I do at home because I'm more likely to end up injuring myself just because of my like, specific needs and in terms of managing pain. And so what I've ended up doing... and again shitload of privilege in this but, I'm, after three years of pelvic girdle pain, I'm like, at my limit. So I've started seeing a physio one on one who does clinical Pilates. So it's like very much helping me build my strength, which I could do... like I was going to a barre class before that, but I was walking away with more pain, even though it was supposedly like a supervised class, like there were no adjustments. There were no like modifications for my body, like nothing. So I personally, I have found that trying to build my strength and reduce pain, like finding someone who's really specialised has been a game changer for me. Michael: Yeah, I would say... I was gonna say one of the benefits of COVID. That's not what I meant. I was gonna say for the benefits of kind of the lockdown that happened as a result of COVID is the fitness industry got pushed forward by about five to ten years in terms of the way that it can support people, especially on a tighter budget as well. There are now so many... Laura: oh, you mean like online?Michael: Online support, right? Because I know that personal training is an investment for a lot of people. It's not a cheap route to go down. If you can afford it, absolutely, yes. If you can have the support of a professional who's got years of experience, it does speed things up and it makes things a lot more kind of personalised and perhaps more enjoyable.However, the way that the online fitness space works now, it has improved massively. And for, kind of, much cheaper options, monthly options, you can get the support of a trainer online that will be able to do a video call with you to check your form. You can send them videos. Like I speak to people that follow me on Instagram all the time and they'll ask me a question. I'll say, just send me a video of you doing the exercise. I'm happy to give you some pointers. If you find people online that are truly passionate and care. If you send them a video of you doing an exercise, they'll happily help you out. So there are so many different routes that you can go down to get the support that don't cost a huge amount of money.Once again, even the cheaper forms are still an investment, but there are different routes that you can go down now. Yeah, absolutely. Laura: Yeah. Okay. I appreciate that. And then just to add to that, like I've done some sessions with this, like a one on one physio. And now I'm going to, like the group classes as well.So it's, I think, helpful to just... if you have any kind of rehab that needs to be done, or if you just want to feel more confident in the movements. Cause like Pilates can be tricky if you don't know exactly what you're doing to just be thrown into a class situation. So it's helped me at least like doing a few sessions, even though I've done Pilates before, but just having that refresher to then go into a class setting, it's just helped build up my confidence a little bit. And it's also, I'm not going to like this, like a gym. Sorry, I said that with so much disdain, realizing you're a personal trainer! Michael: Ugh, these disgusting personal trainers!Laura: It had, like, a visceral effect. Michael: It's so funny though, isn't it? That it's so sad that's what the fitness industry has become. And especially as a trainer who is one, every time I meet someone and they'll ask oh, what do you do? I have to like preface, Oh, like I'm not like the rest of them, but I'm a personal trainer, like it's really sad.Laura: I do the same thing, but with nutrition, I'm like, I'm a nutritionist, but I'm not that kind of nutritionist. Michael: I'm not going to sell you a cleanse, I promise! Laura: All right, Michael, this has been so fun to have you on and just shoot the shit about fitness culture. But at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been snacking on. So it can be a book, a podcast, a TV show. Yeah, just about anything that, that you feel like. So what are you snacking on at the moment? Michael: So one podcast I'm listening to, this is going to be a bit of a curve ball, there's probably quite a few people, especially in the UK listening to it... I don't like politics because in this country, it's so gross the way that politics is at the moment, but I like being well informed in what's going in politics because it has such a huge knock on impact to like societal changes.Laura: I was really glad that you said that, because when you said I don't like politics, I was like, argh where is this going! Michael: no, I do, but I get so infuriated by it because it's so important and I feel like coaches need to be informed because it does directly impact everything we're doing with our clients in terms of like socioeconomic impacts and food access and education and stuff, so I've been listening to The Rest Is Politics podcast. I don't know if you've ever listened to it. It's actually really good. It's Alastair Campbell, Rory Stewart, Labour side, Tory side. They chat about all daily topics and I quite like that they disagree and argue. I, depending on what you think about those two individuals, I'm still very mixed on what I think of them.However, I think it's very good to have a nice balanced approach there. So that's the podcast I've been listening to a lot recently. I really like it. In terms of food. So I can't eat eggs and dairy. I'm lactose intolerant and intolerant to eggs as well. Laura: I think you were probably going to wait for like the bummer, yeah, for me to be like, oh, that's such a bummer. But I'm vegan, so I don't eat any of that stuff . Michael: Yeah, I know. I was saying, I'm like the worst gym bro ever. I can't have whey protein shakes and I can't eat like 12 eggs a day. So maybe that's another reason they all hate me. So I found a vegan chocolate bar from Aldi. I don't know if you've ever had it. I don't think so. What? So they do milk, in quotation marks, milk chocolate and a white chocolate. They do a dark chocolate too, but a lot of vegan chocolate is dark. Anyway, so I haven't even tried that but their milk chocolate and their white chocolate is so good .And i'm getting through far too much of this chocolate at the moment but I finally found a chocolate bar that tastes amazing. They're by far the best chocolate you can get that's vegan, hands down Laura: That sounds really good, but we don't have an Aldi near us. We have a Lidl. Michael: So it's worth commuting. Laura: Oh, is it? Michael: Yeah. Yes. Laura: Okay. Might have to go to the dark depths of Dalston too.Okay. So I'm actually going to do a podcast also, and it's Getting Curious with Jonathan van Ness, which everyone knows who JVN is, obviously. He's amazing. Yeah, love them. There was like a bit of a thing a while ago where on their Netflix show they talked about like food addiction and it was just really problematic and icky and fatphobic. But JVN seems to have really been on a bit of a journey with this stuff and the latest, well, at the time that we are recording, they've just come out with a podcast called... well, an episode of their podcast Getting Curious called What's the Cultural History of the Calorie? With Dr. Athia Chaudhry. They're a fat activist and it's immersed in like fat politics. So, yeah. I would recommend going and giving that one a listen, because yeah, JVN has been on a journey, it seems. Michael: That sounds awesome. And that is my afternoon listening. Thank you very much. Laura: I will link to all of those things in the show notes.Michael, before I let you go, can you tell everyone where they can find out more about you and your work? Michael: Of course, so, most of the content I create is through Instagram, so it's just my name, which is very hard to spell, so probably best if you check it in the show notes. Laura: Yeah, I will link to everything.Michael: Thank you very much. So it's @MichaelUlloaPT, and that's on Instagram, Threads, Twitter, TikTok, whatever platform, it's all the same. Laura: All right, Michael, I will make sure that... It's all fully linked in the show notes so that everyone can find you. Thank you so much for coming on and yeah, like I said before, shooting the shit with us about fitness culture was really fun.Michael: Thank you so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening.ICYMI this week: "I'm Not Your Target Audience" - How Do We Get Men To Care?* Reclaiming our Appetites* MORE Teens, TikTok, and some Good News for a Change.* Dear Laura: I'm freaking out about what my kids eat - but is it really about them? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Today I'm speaking to Sarah Sproule (she/them), a sex educator, an occupational therapist, as well as a mother of three teens. Sarah uses their skills to ensure that every parent and caring adult knows how to build a deeper connection with their growing kids, and believes that no child should ever feel alone and unable to reach out for help with their body, their boundaries, or their needs. Or their knowledge about sexuality.In this episode, we are talking about ‘sensitive things' with our kids, plus reclaiming the ‘C word'. We dive into the following topics;* The ‘invisible influence of normal'* Showing kids we're a trusted person to talk to about sensitive things* Why we don't want to wait until sex ed classes to start talking about sex* Teaching kids about body boundaries* Answering your Qs about: * How to explain to kids why you do some things in private?* 4 year olds asking BIG questions you're not sure they're ready for* 3 year olds who are resistant to challenging gender stereotypes* How to support your child when someone is asking invasive questions* Plus Sarah shares the unknown history of the C word!Find out more about Sarah's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:Sarah Sproule: I drew analogies between talking about sensitive things and other parts of parenting. So, I don't know a single other parent who waited for their child to ask them for a stem of broccoli before they gave it to them. Right? And we know that broccoli's really great. I don't know a parent who waited for their child to ask them, Can you please show me how to cross the road? Because I want to stay safe. Like, there are so many things we do, we take initiative for, because we know it's important for the health and safety and joy of our child. INTROLaura Thomas: Welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we are talking about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today, I'm talking to Sarah Sproule. Sarah, who uses she/them pronouns, is a sex educator, an occupational therapist, as well as a mother of three teens.Sarah uses their skills to ensure that every parent and caring adult knows how to build a deeper connection with their growing kids. She believes that no child should ever feel alone and unable to reach out for help with their body, their boundaries, or their needs. Or their knowledge about sexuality.In this conversation, we talk about what Sarah calls the ‘invisible influence of normal'; all the things, spoken and unspoken, that shape how we think about bodies, sex, pleasure, periods, and more. And we talk about why it's important to approach these conversations with our kids early and in a non-judgmental way that prioritises connection and helps inoculate them against body shame.We talk about supporting kids to trust their body boundaries and how that can help them use their voice when something doesn't feel right. Plus we answer your questions like how to teach kids that maybe it's best not to touch their penis at the dinner table, without inadvertently shrouding them in shame.Obviously this is a conversation about sensitive topics to do with sex, and at one point we do mention rape and other forms of violence. We also use the C word quite liberally towards the end, which Sarah and I are comfortable with, but we understand that it may not be for everyone. So all of that is to say, listen at your discretion and take care of yourself. I will say, though, that Sarah is extremely compassionate and thoughtful in how she approaches these topics. So I hope you'll find this to be a safe and nourishing conversation. Just before we get to Sarah, I wanted to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter and community and whole wider universe.So until the end of September, I'm running a 15% off sale on the cost of annual memberships. So instead of paying £50 a year, you would pay £42.50 and that gets you access to the monthly Dear Laura columns where I answer your questions. It gets you access to the whole CIHAS archive, it gives you commenting privileges, plus weekly discussion threads tackling the big issues like…how clean is your fridge? And who are you dressing for on the school run? It's a really welcoming space where we learn from each other, share with folks who have a similar world view to us, and we have a lot of fun. And of course it's a completely diet, body shame-free space.  I wanted to quickly share what one CIHAS reader said recently. They shared this review saying: “Laura's Substack is a lifeline in a world where diet culture and fatphobia is pervasive in all aspects of our lives including how we feed our children. Every time I start to worry about my toddlers eating and that internalised diet culture mentality starts bubbling up, it's Laura's voice telling me that it's all going to be okay. Through her invaluable work on CIHAS, she's genuinely keeping me sane and empowering me to navigate feeding my child and making the right decisions for my family. The paid subscription is more than worth it. Thanks, Laura.” Well, thank you for that really sweet review. And like I said, we're running a sale for the rest of September and you can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com and I'll drop the link in the show notes so you can find it really easily. And by becoming a paid subscriber, not only do you get the sweet perks that I mentioned earlier, but more importantly, your contributions help make this work sustainable. All right, team, let's get to today's guest. Here's Sarah.  MAIN EPISODEHey, Sarah, can you start by telling us a little bit about you and the work that you do, please? Sarah: I support parents and other adults who are raising children to speak about sensitive things. So that's a euphemism for puberty, genitals, babies, growing up, sex, relationships, all that sort of stuff that might seem a little bit like…eeeeh!...when you think about having conversations about that with kids.And that work is important to me. I'm an occupational therapist, but I do that work because I was one of the kids that would have really benefited from way more open and sort of practical conversations about all that sort of stuff. My mum and dad were missionaries and we grew up in Nigeria for most of my teens, but yeah, even though mum was a nurse and she would have told me how my brother was born and all the bits and bobs and… Laura: Yeah, the gory details.Sarah: Yeah. I think because I had undiagnosed ADHD particularly, it meant that if things weren't repeated and part of everyday life, I just forgot. So I got to be nine years old and I thought sperm flew through the air to get to the egg. So I didn't want the children that I was raising to have that same experience.And so here we are now, Masters in Sexuality Studies. I've been doing this now for a few years, and it just feels like the more I do it, the more I realised that this is the exact sort of work that…all my experiences growing up and being a neurodiverse person…it's all set me up for this. So that's a great sense of joy to feel so aligned with work and with who I am as a person.Laura: For sure. And thank you for sort of walking us through that transition from OT to sexuality studies to what you're doing now. And I think it's so interesting that your background is in OT because – and that's occupational therapy for anyone who isn't familiar with that acronym – because it really shines through in the work that you do.And I think that's the only other allied health professionals, I think, would see that, but definitely you can see the echoes of that. And I think it's such a great foundation for the more coaching-centered work that you're doing. So you sort of alluded to this in what you were saying there, but you talk a lot about this concept of the ‘invisible influence of normal'. Can you unpack that a bit more for us and tell us what that is? Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So wherever we live, in whatever sort of country or city or family, there are influences on us from those cultures, whether it's family culture, city culture, farm culture, Irish culture, Australian culture, whatever. Those influences or those…the messages we're given subtly show us what normal is.So normal could be being married with children, for example, and not that anyone might have ever said that to us, what's normal is to get married and have kids, but maybe it's an assumption in the way people ask young children or growing people questions about what they want to do in the future, how many kids they want. Like if someone asked someone how many kids you want, there's an invisible assumption there that they want children. So this invisible influence of normal impacts us, not just when we're growing up, but it impacts adults who are raising children as well, because if we lived in a family that didn't use penis and vulva or clitoris as words for genitals with children, then we're going to grow up into adults who…the invisible influence of normal will have said, sort of shaped, you don't use those words with kids. And that's just normal. That's what sort of we grew up to expect. And that's just one example. There are lots of other ways like what is normal just gets sort of embedded into our consciousness, maybe without even our own awareness. So a lot of the times this “normal idea of normal” – and I'm using my fingers in air quotes – we might not realise that it's impacting how we speak to the small people in our life until we have a particular experience. Like it could be something like having a conversation with another parent at the school gate or in childcare, where they speak about, say, walking around nude in their home and all of a sudden you realise, what? Some people think it's normal or okay to walk around nude in front of their kids at home. What? And all of a sudden everything sort of shakes a bit, you know, in our world view. Laura: What I'm hearing you say is that this invisible influence of normal, it shapes our ideas of what is acceptable, what is taboo.And ultimately, I think it shapes whether we have a shame response to something, or whether we can talk openly and transparently about, you know, like you say, sensitive subjects without them becoming, yeah, something that we have to hide or feel shame about. Is that a fair way of kind of putting it? , Sarah: Yeah, that's a beautiful way of saying it.So this story came into my mind and I wanted to share it. So picture me 13 years ago. And I have like a five year old, a three year old and a one year old and it's Saturday. So if any of the people listening are anything like us…Saturdays, we're like, we're just trying to eke out every single minute of sleep, or at least being horizontal in the bed that we can manage, you know, and so our three kids playing around the room, the doors locked so that they can't get into trouble. And you can hear this sort of splashing in the bathroom and I get out of bed and I go in and have a look. There's a five year old has taken some condoms out of the bedside drawer – because condoms were our contraceptive method of choice at the time. And opened up the packet, given one to her brother, one for herself, and they've got them in the basin, they're trying to fill them up like water balloons. And I'm at the door and I'm looking in the door and, like, my breath catches in my throat….cause, like, your kids are touching something that is related to penises.  Laura: Oh it's so dirty! Sarah: So it's sort of like, this is the first time I ever thought of anything related to this work, right? And I call out to my partner. I go, John, the, the kids are playing with condoms…and this is my really traditional Irish Catholic husband sort of says, Yeah, so what?  I'm like, they're condoms! And he goes, So? And it was in that moment that I was like, Oh, hang on a minute. So for me, that was a moment when that invisible influence became visible. It was like, yeah, if he thinks this and I don't think that, what's going on here, what's…what's happening? And so it was a really clear moment in time for me.I was like. Oh, there are things at play here. There's, there is influences at play here that I didn't even realise. Um, and I think it was particularly clear because in my mind, John was sort of very traditional and I was like the uber progressive Australian parent living in Ireland. So it was quite a shock.And that's where this whole process for me of really looking and seeing what I thought was right that was unexamined and how that was really leading me down the same path to treat my kids the same way that I was treated, which was…yes, we can answer questions, but at the end of the day, sex and things related to adults, like life, children had to be protected against because it is in some way dangerous and sort of wrong. And of course there are lots of things about adult sexuality that, yes, are not appropriate for children, but there are a whole stinking lot of things that families can talk about in a way that is educational and supportive and kind and open and connecting. And when we don't allow ourselves access to those topics of conversation, we're losing the chance, not just to inform our children. That, to me, in my work is a secondary thing. The information exchange, that's a secondary thing. What's more important is that we are creating moments over and over again, where we prove and show ourselves to be someone, an adult, a trusted adult, who can talk about pretty much anything and everything. And we do that with understanding and we do it in a way that is respectful of our children and their ability to understand stuff. When that shift happens in an adult's mind that they realise that talking about sensitive things is a bridge over which they build a connection with their child and which will last a lifetime because it will last a lifetime, then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, okay. So this might be awkward and I might not know how to do it, but God damn it. I really want to try because I understand what is possible if I make this effort.  Laura: Yeah, and again, what I'm hearing you say is that you're prioritising the relationship that you have with your child over and above your own comfort and probably other people's comfort, people around you, maybe grandparents, maybe other parents at the school, teachers even, that your, your child might come into contact with. And that kind of leads me to a question that I, I was thinking about for you, which was around why it is so important for us, as parents, as carers, as guardians, to be the people that are starting these conversations with our children, these, like you say, sensitive conversations, and that could, I think, range from calling genitals by their correct names all the way through to puberty and periods.Why does it feel so important for it to be coming from us rather than, you know, waiting until Sex Ed at school or waiting until they hear something in the playground? Sarah: Again, it's about creating connection. I think about it from the perspective of how many years an adult, either a parent or a caregiver in some other capacity, is with their child or their young person, right?So I will often say that, okay, so If our kids stay with us until they're 23, just pick a number. You've got 23 years of meals and negotiations about bathroom time and conversations about going out with friends and all that, where your child has the opportunity to come to tell you something that's difficult or worrying for them or where they can ask you a question that is going to make the difference between them being able to speak up for themselves in a tricky situation or not. So your child is around you lots and lots and lots. Whereas if they first hear something sensitive, like how babies are made or what sex actually is from a teacher at school, that teacher may only be there for, say, 10 months of their life and then they're gone. And so when your child is thinking about the memories of how they learned particular things, a teacher's face will come up, but your face won't. And what that means is when they have a question or a concern or something tough is happening in their world, there's not that sort of memory that connects you and sensitive, awkward, unpleasant, difficult, concerning, but also exciting life events in the head, right? So it's very much about, again, how can we build that connection? How can we demonstrate to a child or a young person that we talk about this stuff. I drew analogies between talking about sensitive things and other parts of parenting. So I don't know a single other parent who waited for their child to ask them for a stem of broccoli before they gave it to them.  And we know that broccoli is really great. I don't know a parent who waited for their child to ask them, can you please show me how to cross the road, because I want to stay safe. Like, there are so many things we do that we take initiative for because we know it's important for the health and safety and joy of our child.And this area of being human, this developing sexual self is no different when you sort of look at it like that. Most of the time people go, oh yeah, I see what you're saying there, I wouldn't wait for my child to ask me to send them to swimming lessons. I mean, some of us might've done that before our child was even one. So it's far more about realising that our parenting approach, if it's different, only in the sensitive conversation section, then that's showing us that there's something behind that, that needs to be examined so that we can show up for our child in the best way. Laura: If you think about it from the perspective of, you know, like a, I don't know, a seven year old saying to another seven year old in the playground, oh duh duh duh, sex, penis, vulva, and that's complete news to your seven year old. I can imagine that that would be attached to, again, shame, embarrassment, of not knowing that information or that completely, like, coming out of the blue, versus if you've already maybe laid some foundations and some groundwork, then your child might have the language to be like…Or maybe they don't have necessarily, like, they can't explain all the ins and outs of it, but they can be like, oh, yeah, that's something I've heard of, and maybe I can go home to this trusted person and get some more details or ask some more questions. I suppose that's the kind of, I would imagine, you know, the ideal way that that scenario plays out rather than a child who just feels so overcome by shame and embarrassment that they don't have anywhere to go with that information.Sarah: Absolutely. And I mean, that scenario that you've pictured, that's probably actually best case scenario for a child that doesn't know anything. A more problematic scenario might be where a child tells another child something that's just completely and utterly wrong. Like one of my kids came home from school, I think they were probably 10, and he came home and he said, mum, Michael at school told us that rape means having sex with someone and then killing them.And I was like, Oh, that's not right, is it? Because we'd had those conversations. So it's not just about setting your child up to not be surprised by things, but actually if you've got there first with the accurate information, inaccurate stuff tends to like, they don't grab onto it and go, Oh, okay.Because…you know, think about that. It's quite damaging for a child or a young person to think that rape is having sex with someone and then killing them because then they don't understand what rape really is, you know, and so there's all sorts of complexity and difficulty that sort of arise from that.And, and I imagine that any…well, I would hope that any young person would go through the education system and very quickly get the correct definition given to them at some point in the curriculum, but nevertheless. It's not a great introduction if they're getting inaccurate information from a peer.Laura: Yeah, because you're completely missing the whole, you know, really important opportunity to talk about consent.And so speaking of consent, I wanted to – and maybe this will help us take some of these more abstract concepts and put them into more concrete terms, but something that I've noticed since becoming a parent is how entitled people feel to kids' bodies, you know, whether it's hugs or kisses or touching them in some way.Like, I was with my three year old the other day and someone from their pre-school, a teacher, ran up behind them and picked them up and scooped them up, and it scared the shit out of me, never mind my three year old. And of course it was coming from a well intentioned, loving place, because I know that they have a good relationship, but it feels like such a tricky one to navigate as a parent.And I have a lot of thoughts about this. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how we begin to teach kids about their body boundaries and what is okay and not okay in terms of people accessing their bodies and, and talking about who they share their bodies with and in what capacity. Sarah: The best way to learn things is through experience.So we could spend, you know, all day, every day saying to our child, you know, your body, your choice, you get to decide what's done to your body. But if we don't create an environment at home where that is lived rather than just spoken, then that makes it difficult. So children who – and I was one of these kids, actually – children who their voices aren't heard, we – I'm going to say, we – we grow up, we lose sense of what our truth is, right? So here's something that I've been thinking about lately. One of the adults in my community asked a question about school refusal. In my world, it's ‘school can't' or ‘school avoidance'. If a child is…said we just have to go to school anyway. You just have to go. That's what we do. We have to go. The message there is it doesn't matter how you feel. There are some things that just have to be done because it's always been done like that, right? You can imagine that if that model is placed on a relationship and our child grows up to be a young adult and is in a relationship with someone who is very clear on the way things should be. So for example, I had a relationship for a time with a person and, in the process of negotiating our physical intimacy, I remember an interaction where I said, we'll need some lube. And this person says, Oh no, we don't need lube. And, now, it was a big deal for me to even say we need lube, but the other person being so clear, like we don't need it. I just completely, like, shut down. That was it. Okay, well then that must be true because what the other person is saying, which is opposite to me must be true because that was something that was demonstrated over and over and over again in my growing up. And I'm bringing up school refusal because it's so…it's really difficult. It presses a lot of buttons in an adult, you know, a child who doesn't want to go to school. That's probably one of the more complicated places where respecting our child's voice and their deep inner knowing of what is right for them is going to be hard, whereas maybe a little bit easier in, if it was, do you want to go to the beach or do you want to, you know, go over to Jimmy's house and jump on his trampoline. Like it won't matter so much what our child says, if they say jump on the trampoline and we would have preferred to go to the beach, we're like, oh, we'll go and jump on the trampoline. But, so there's sort of like a, you know, like a continuum of the places in raising children where it's easier to respect who they are and their interests and what they want, versus the ones that are more difficult. And oftentimes the ones that are more difficult will be the ones where it puts us, as the adult, in a position where we have to go against someone in authority, or someone whose opinion we really value and we're concerned about their response when we're sort of advocating for our child.So it's no easy thing, but it really is about your child's experience of being heard, seen, believed, honoured. Yeah.Laura:  Yeah. You remind me a lot of a conversation I had with the psychologist, Hillary McBride, who is author of the book Wisdom of Your Body, and she talks a lot about embodiment, and we had a conversation about children's embodiment, and it was, you know, there, there are situations, of course, where we can't let our kids stay home because we have to go to work and we don't have any other form of childcare. As much as we would love to stay home with them all day and to let them rest and get all the things that they need, but again, late stage capitalism doesn't allow that. One of the things that she pulled out was just this idea that, even when we have to hold a boundary with our child, that we believe their experience, that we trust them and that we kind of, yeah, validate, I think, their experience because that will enable them to hold on to that seed of being able to trust their own embodied wisdom. You're nodding away there. I don't know if you have anything else that you would like to add to that.  Sarah: Yeah. So in my world, sometimes parents will say, yeah, but like consent is all very well, but what about, I've got a two year old who doesn't want to get into their car seat and we were going to wherever we're going and they have to be in the car seat.I'm like, yeah, yes, they do absolutely have to be in the car seat. And so in my world, I would be talking about informed consent versus like consent. And so a two year old doesn't have enough information and understanding about the implications for what they want to do. They don't understand that that puts them in danger.And so understanding that, while a two year old is very sort of clear on what they need, we have more information. That doesn't mean what they need is wrong. It just means we have more information and we need to facilitate sort of understanding, and that can be really hard when your two year old is doing the banana body and just, there's no way you can get the seatbelt on, you know?And so oftentimes it's about creating a culture when that clash of needs is not happening. So when your two year old is screaming, saying no, about getting in the seat, that's not the time to sit down and explain various things, but maybe there's another time the following day. Where it's possible to say, you know, I love you and my job is to keep you safe.And let's think of all the ways you need to be kept safe, or some of the ways. And you can list off, you know, electricity and fire and other things and then say, and did you know, cars are really dangerous if we don't have seatbelts on, just very like, little drops of knowledge and then I suppose that we can set our two year old up for success.And that could look like…like kids do really well with context, connection and choice, right? So getting to the car, setting context, in half an hour, we're going to need to get in the car. What does your body need to do before we do that? Do you want to run around? What sort of, what busyness? Because you remember, we're going to have to sit in the seat with the belt on.So context, connection, getting down and showing them that you see them. I love you. And I know that your body has a hard time being in the car seat. What can I do to help you out? Like letting them know, we see them, we understand what their experience is like. And then the choice is really offering as much choice as possible.So the seatbelt isn't a non-negotiable thing, but maybe there's other choices. Would you like to take a toy? Or would you like to choose the music? Or would you like to have a special blankie or like try and find all the ways that if your kid, the feeling of at least a little bit of autonomy so that you can keep them safe without too much conflict.And I…like I had three two year olds, I know it's not easy and we're all strapped for time. But if you sort of take a step back and think about it in the broader context, it's not just about that moment where you're trying to put them into the car. Context, connection, and choice are one of those things that's going to help you help your kid. And if you can do that, you feel good. Don't you? As a parent and like, Oh, like, wow. For the first time ever, my two year old got into the car seat without a screaming match. Like that's a win. And that helps me anyway, feel warm and fuzzy.  Laura: Oh, it definitely makes such a difference when you feel like you're maxed out, but then you get that win.And I mean, you're speaking my language, Sarah, and it's the exact same approach that I would take to a child who was struggling to come to the table, or who was really having a hard time eating and getting everything that they needed from food, you know, that connection piece is so important. And I will spare you the TED talk about everything that I see on Instagram that prioritises like these cheap wins over real connection over the feeding relationship. So yeah, I'll rein it back to what we're talking about here. Sarah: You know, when I was thinking about this, that we're going to have this conversation together, I was imagining that you and I at work would probably be that thing where we're holding onto different parts of the elephant. And while my work may look different, it's two parts of exactly the same thing. So I'm pleased to hear that is absolutely the case. Laura: 100%. So I got quite a few questions sent in. I'm not sure if we'll have time to go through them all, but I would really love to get your take on them. So these were sent in on Instagram that, you know, in the Instagram boxes, it's like a really tiny little space. So not all of them have all the context that I think we would need. I'll just shoot anyway. So the first one was “How to explain to kids why some stuff you do in private”. Again, there's no context here, but I'm going to assume that this parent means that their child is touching their vulva or their penis.Maybe…I mean, unless you have any other thoughts as to what might be going on there, but that seemed to be the most obvious thing to my mind. Sarah: Yeah, well, let's assume that. It's like anything else. We can think of other scenarios, that something is right in one context, but not another context. So oftentimes I will say, well, when we're going for a picnic in the park and we're sitting on a blanket. It makes total sense to use our hands, right? Cause we're probably eating a sandwich or a muffin or something, but when we go to granny's house and she served us tomato soup in a bowl, then what makes the most sense is to use a spoon. Or what do we wear when we go to the local swimming pool? Wear our swimmers. What do we do when we go to watch a movie in the cinema? Well, it wouldn't make sense at all to wear our swimmers. We'd get cold in the air conditioning anyway. We need maybe some trousers and a T-shirt. Same thing. With our genitals, depending on where our genitals are or like where our body is, well, there'll be different rules for them.So when we're on our own, when we're in the bathroom, when we're in our room, our genitals are our own. We can touch them and feel them and notice what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And you know, we wash our hands afterwards to make sure we don't spread any germs around the place, but your genitals are yours and you get to touch them and do with them whatever way you want. When we're outside, all the other people, they're allowed to not want to see us playing with our genitals, right? So we don't do it. Because if we didn't have that rule whereby people don't play with their genitals in public, then a lot of people might start playing with their genitals on the bus or in the playground or at school. And then it would be chaos. Not everyone wants to see other people's genitals or their hands down there. So it's just about common courtesy, really. And using analogies for other parts of life, where that same dynamic applies, it tends to ease us adults who are feeling a little bit squeaky about having that conversation in, because it's like, this is the same dynamic that plays out everywhere else in human existence. It just so happens because this is about genitals. Sometimes we're like, eh, I don't know what, help, help. Because maybe we're trying to reduce the likelihood of our child feeling shame, probably because when we were growing up, we were made to feel ashamed by what the adults around us said, and not because they were perhaps doing that on purpose, but because that's what they… Laura: They didn't have it shown to them. Yeah. Sarah: They, they didn't know. And most likely they would've been doing it with good intentions. Yeah. Some of us, you know, the adults that cared for us did not have good intentions. For the most part, though, most adults do, whatever level of ability we have talking about sensitive things is exactly right, depending on what's been in our past.So just because someone in the playground, a parent, is really good at this stuff, and we're not, that doesn't mean they're a better parent. They were just dealt a different hand and that's just the way it is.  Laura: Yeah. I hear you say that it's really important to have some self compassion when you are thinking about these issues.Thinking about having these conversations with your kid, but you kind of get that lump in your throat and you're not really quite sure how exactly to handle them, that just thinking about it, is a really good starting point, isn't it? And then from there, if you notice, Oh, I'm…well, it's checking in with your own bodily experiences, right, and saying, okay, what's coming up for me and where do I need some support or some help or some resources to help me open up these conversations.I really love the analogies that you use because these…yeah, it's a very similar thing, you know, talking about context and what's appropriate – I have some feelings about the word appropriate, but let's not get into that. One question that kind of came to my mind as you were explaining how you might approach that conversation. I'm curious if other parents might have this same thought, is that oftentimes in books around body boundaries and consent, they talk about your genitals as being private. So you know, one of the books that we have talks about how everything that's underneath your bathing suit, you know, it's your body, it's private.Would you use that kind of language, or how might you use that language? Do you find that helpful, or not so much? Sarah: There's a lovely author called Cory Silverberg, and they wrote three books for children of various ages. Laura: They're so good, these books. Sarah: Yeah, they're great. That author coined this idea of middle parts, and so the idea is rather than using private parts, using middle parts to generally describe genitals, because when we talk about private parts, it's just…it makes it complicated to give a child shame-free ownership of those parts of their body, right? One of the shifts in a family culture that can be really useful is this idea that in our family, we talk about everything.So, in a sense, particularly when kids are small, genitals aren't really private in families. Right? Laura: This is the exact thing that I've bumped up against with my three year old who still needs me to wipe his butt. And so there is that confusing thing of like, well, if this is private, but I need help with this or, you know, I still need to bathe him.And even the example that you gave earlier where we walk around our house nude, but we don't go outside nude, right? Like that can be a confusing thing. So I'm sorry to interject, but it just…you're articulating the exact, the exact thing that I have bumped up against. Sarah: Yeah. And so I suppose, again, it's another demonstration of something that manifests in lots of different ways in our parenting, but because it's to do with genitals, it's a bit like, Oh, not quite sure how this works.So the whole dynamic of raising children is that in the beginning, we're having to do a lot of things for them that they will eventually do themselves, feeding, cleaning, dressing, even sort of communicating, like taking the whole burden of communication off them onto us. So we're interpreting sounds and body language and all that sort of thing.So you can explain that dynamic to a child and say that there are certain parts of our body that are more sensitive than others and middle parts or genitals like penis or a vulva or whatever, there's a lot of special skin on those parts. And what that means is that they need special care, right? Now, when you're grown up and when you're, you know, maybe you're 8 or you're 10, you're going to wash those and put your clothes on those parts of your body. And you won't really need an adult's help at all. And you probably definitely won't want an adult's help, but while you're still small and I'm having to help you do a few other things, this is one of the parts of your body that, that you need help with.And my job is to help you eventually do it all on your own. Right. You would need to also say that bit about only trusted people help us with our most sensitive parts of ourselves. Right. And I suppose as a reminder that it's not just genitals we're talking about here. We're also talking about anus and we're talking about mouth because those are parts of the body too that can be used in ways that are really hurtful for people who don't have a child's best interest at heart. So when you're framing it in that way, there's less sense of like…the word private tends to put a shroud over things where, if you're talking about the sensitive special skin and special parts, then it's more like it's an honour and a privilege sort of thing, like to support you in this part of your being human. And to me, it just feels more gentle and collaborative and kind of nurturing. Laura: Yeah, I often thought about, like, the language of private parts as well as being a little bit confusing from the perspective of, like, as in when kids mature into young adults where they might want to start sharing their bodies with other people in a respectful, consensual way.Again, if it's got that sort of private, you know, shroud of shame connotation, then that's going to be a lot harder for them to do that in a way that, that feels safe.Sarah:  I'm laughing because I remember a meme that I saw, it would have been years ago now, but it was like, lies we tell children, number one, we don't lick other people's private parts.And just sort of like this, like head in the hand, like face palm, like, moment where, well, actually, when you get older…And I suppose what it illustrates is, when we're talking to kids, we have all this information and knowledge about where things could go as adults, right? They don't have an understanding of that.And I suppose it's no harm really to allow ourselves as adults to simplify it at a particular point in time, right? Knowing that as our kids get older, that truth that we've told will no longer be true. Right. And so, and that's where resources like Cory Silverberg's book, Sex is a Funny Word or, You Know Sex. Sex is a Funny Word is for around, around seven and eight years, And, You Know Sex is sort of for 10 to 14 year olds where it's really clear, it's a lot about how our bodies are instruments of pleasure, right? Which is often another conversation that adults find hard to have with kids. You know, that classic thing where you have that conversation about how babies are made or well, sperms and eggs get together and a penis goes into a vagina, if those two people want to do that, or you might talk about IVF or artificial insemination, but if it's a penis in a vagina… Laura: It leaves out a whole part of the conversation as to why people have sex. Yeah. Sarah: Exactly. And so oftentimes the kids will come back and say, all right, so I've been thinking about that. So that means you and dad did that twice, right? And parents will go, Oh, which actually just demonstrates that, like you said, a whole section of the conversation that was was left out about pleasure. So I think in these moments, when we're talking to kids about boundaries and safety, it's possible to simplify it a bit, knowing that down the road, one of our important jobs is to bring this whole pleasure and sharing our bodies with other people, and that naturally comes as they grow older and they start cluing in on more things to do with…they see the diversity in relationships around their extended community and family, you know, like if you have a same sex couple in your community, it makes it so much easier. And thank you to all the out gay and bi people, right?Because it makes it so much easier to have the pleasure conversation because it's so clear that if a child has had those conversations that sex really is only a penis and a vagina that all of a sudden you get this beautiful opportunity to talk about, well, actually intimacy is so much more about pleasure and how bodies feel good and how, when we share our body with someone else and we trust them and they trust us, then we get to help another person's body feel really good.There are lots of different ways that that happens. And then remember that in parenting, sometimes you don't have to say everything, like you can…Um, if you have a child who really needs things to be quite concretised, so an autistic child, for example, who really needs very specific communication. I'm autistic, I know what it means when someone's beating around the bush and I have to say, can you just tell me, tell me exactly what you mean by that? What does that mean? And then they're clear. And I'm like, okay, fine. And there are children like that, but some kids, you know, the information layers on over time, so it's far more about just holding your nerve and knowing that over the weeks and the months and the years to come, there'll be lots of opportunity to do and say and read all the things.Laura: And that's exactly what I was going to say is, reminding ourselves that, that this isn't a one and done conversation, that we will be having, if we're lucky and privileged to continue having these conversations with our kids, if they trust us enough to keep coming to us for these conversations, then it will be an iterative, as you say, layering on more information and more nuance as they developmentally can grasp that.So, I'm really curious to hear your answer to this question, because I bet there's a ton that you would love to say, but the person who sent this question in asked, “Four year old is asking questions, I'm not sure she's actually ready to hear the answer about, what do I do?” Sarah: I always say that if a child is asking the question, then they need to know the answer.Oftentimes in parenting advice, you'll hear people say, first of all, you ask them, well, what do you know already? And again, I go back to that old thing about, okay, where else in parenting do we check, well, what do you know already? Like there may be some places where you genuinely want to know, okay, do you know the basics of the solar system, for example? And so then I can just tell you, answer the question based on your knowledge, but oftentimes adults will use that, what do you know already as a way to sort of like create space. Laura: Or deflect. Sarah: Yeah, deflect. That's right. Or create space. And that's not a bad thing if your brain is trying to catch up. But all I would say is, a four year old has huge amounts of capacity for understanding sperms and eggs and uteruses and testicles and lots of things. And as a general rule, if we think a child isn't old enough to get the answer to something, it's probably because there's something in our past or a worry that we have that we don't know is there.So short answer, answer the question and see what happens, and use simple language in a way that you would use for answering any other questions you might ask. Laura: It's interesting, just maybe a point of difference in how we might approach things, because if a, for example, if a child came to me and asked, is this healthy for me? Like this food. Usually, I would be really curious to know, okay, well, I'm interested, what do you think? Do you think this is a healthy food? Just to get a gauge of, like, what information they've picked up or what they've learned so that I'm kind of starting from where they are and then maybe building from there.But I also see, like, how in certain situations it could be, like, Oh, fuck. I'm in too deep here. So let's just get the kid to do the hard work for me. Yeah. Sarah: And I guess, again, it's about how much stigma and shame culturally exists around a topic. There's a lot of stigma and shame that exists around…there is a lot of cultural shit around your topic as well, right? They're both heavily laden. Laura: But I would argue that you probably, uh, win on this, Sarah: Yeah. Yay! My topic's more stigmatised! Laura: You got it, yeah! I think what we're saying is, the point is to have the conversation, right? To think about, and again, what we were saying before, noticing what comes up in us when that question is asked.Sarah: And if you need to buy time, one of the great ways to do it is to say, Oh, I love that question. I'm so glad you asked it. Even if you're lying because you're freaking out, reinforce how great it is that they brought that up. I love that question. I'm so glad you asked it. I want to make sure I give you the best answer I can. So I'll get back to you tomorrow. Now, if you say that. You must get back to them tomorrow, otherwise it's a breach of trust. And remember, we're trying to be askable adults, the people they trust the most to come to them with their worst and best questions and worries. So that's really important. So you, in rugby language, you kick for touch. You tell them you come back tomorrow, you run around and find your most trusted sex educator, or you go to your therapist or ask your best friend who seems to know how to do all these things. And then you go back to your kid the next day.Laura:  Yeah. I did not understand the rugby reference, but everything else you said sounded really good.Sarah: Kicking for touch means, like, you take the ball and you kick it as far down the pitch as you can, hoping that it will bounce in exactly the right way that you can run down and start from that point. Right. Laura: Got it. Okay, I'm with you. Alright, another quick question, just in general: smashing gender stereotypes for a three year old who has turned out like a princess. They love glitter, and dresses, and pink, and does not enjoy wearing pants, despite the parents best efforts to show her a variety of gender roles. And then the same person kind of asked a follow up question, which is, is it okay to just…let her be tacky and think she's a Disney princess, even if I wish it was different.So yeah, questions about gender roles and offering a variety of, not even offering a variety, but challenging gender stereotypes. Sarah: So I'll answer the second part of that question first. It is absolutely okay to allow your three year old to be as tacky and as pink or as glittery as they want. Absolutely.And that goes for a child of any gender. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also say that for some of us, there is a desire, I suppose, to fix everything that's wrong with the world through a small person who's growing up. And really they're one human. Yeah, and they're themselves and they're an individual. And I remember thinking a lot about this when my daughter was, I can't remember what she was, we started to get into YouTube videos about makeup and she loved makeup and I really had to do a lot of soul searching and personal sort of, like, care because I really wanted to fix the whole of the patriarchy when it came to like appearance and that whole makeup culture and everything. But I realized that no, no, that's not my job. And it's definitely not my 11 year old, 10 year old's job. My job is to love her and support her and help her feel like she is the best thing since sliced bread. Even if she is…has interests along sort of gender stereotype lines. And yeah, so remembering that in the moment when we're thinking of, Oh, we want to sort of fix the gender stereotypes and all that stuff. That really our child's body is not the place in which to do that. If you have a desire to create some sort of change, find somewhere else to do it.And look, the person who's asking these questions has already done a really great job of providing diversity and opportunity to see different things in their home. And so, you know, you've done what you can do and you continue to look at yourself and notice, okay, where are some of the ways that I might unthinkingly be following stereotypical lines and maybe then volunteer for some organisation or donate money somewhere else who's doing work related to gender and get on loving your kid and doing all the sparkly, tulle, pink, whatever it is. Unicorns. Yeah. Laura: Yeah. I think that's such a helpful reminder is that, you know, kids are not our like personal projects for righting everything that is wrong in the world and that there are other ways that we can create opportunities for them, show that we will be loving, accepting no matter what they decide they want to be when they grow up or how they want to express themselves or, you know, who they want to be in relationships with or any of that stuff that we can. There…you know, it doesn't have to be this either/or binary because so much of what is problematic about systems in the world is that they're binary, right?And so we…I suppose one thing that we can do is work to not replicate binaries in our, in our own home and in our parenting. And I have a little curveball question for you that I wanted to ask, which is kind of related to, something else we talked about at the very beginning around people feeling entitled to kids' bodies, and I promise I didn't just get you on the podcast to answer my own parenting shit, but I was curious to hear if you had or how you might approach this or if you had any thoughts on this. Something that we come up against quite a lot is people really feeling entitled to explanations from my three year old. You know, that thing, which again can be like very well connected, meaning and people want to connect with him by asking, you know, what's your name? What's your age? But then they always ask, are you a boy or a girl?And It just feels so invasive and I can tell that he feels invaded because he kind of like, you know, curls into me, and it's one of those things where I just want to say. There is no such thing as a girl or a boy. What are you talking about? Like, and just launch into this whole diatribe about gender roles and, and things, but it, you know, the corner shop is not the place to do that.So I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on how you can kind of say to your child, like, it wasn't okay that they asked you that question. And, you know, I could tell that you were uncomfortable with that question while also maybe kind of like deflecting that question, does that make sense what I'm asking?Sarah: In a sense, you've partially answered it already because what you said there about saying to your kid afterwards, that question was, I could see it made you uncomfortable. What you're doing is you're, you're reflecting back their experience of it and reinforcing that that was a valid response, right?And so you're really sort of saying that made sense to me that you felt like that, that felt a bit weird. And you could even be more sort of broad and say, you know, some people ask questions that don't feel comfortable or feel a bit unkind or feel a bit rough. Whatever is the natural language that your, your kid would resonate with.But the other thing would be to – and you may already do this – is in the moment when it's happening and the person in the shop has asked that question, you can see your kid's body language doing what it's doing. You could simply say, Oh, I noticed that that question, it feels, it feels uncomfortable. So how about we talk about what we're buying in the shop, or did you know that apples is our favorite fruit? This is a personal choice. Actually. Some people would choose to deflect in a way that's very sort of gentle and easy going, because in the presence of a child, they're not interested in raising the conflict, elevating the energy. So do that way. Some people are more comfortable saying simply, you know, we don't really talk about gender in our house. We're much more interested in… whatever it is. So like it's finding the balance that feels right to you in being able to redirect…or I had one person just simply ignored questions they thought was stupid, they just like blanked them and went, okay, good to see you and off they went or, okay, we're going off to get the milk now. And just like, just pretended that it hadn't even happened, you know. It's different for everyone. There will be, and I'll speak to this too, there will be some people that don't have the personal capacity to manage any of the options that we've just mentioned here. You know, and there's someone in my community who something similar happened, they were in the park and a dear family friend, I think was about 50, saw them after, it might've been after COVID. So it'd been a few years and, her daughter was probably about 10 and he sort of, he moved in or something and she could see her daughter's whole body. So like, like shrink like this, but in the moment, yeah. Did not have the capacity. Like didn't see it coming. Hadn't thought about any of this stuff before. And so the interaction happened, he left and she hadn't been able to do anything about it, which makes complete sense because there are many of us, we go into a trauma response that reflects what's happened to us in our past, where we also were mute or I didn't have power to, to sort of do anything about that.So also, I suppose, a recognition of that. We all have different capacity when it comes to a situation like this and to reiterate and go back to that thing again about self compassion, whatever you have capacity to do in that moment is exactly right. It is not possible to achieve something if you don't have the underlying ability or experience or knowledge to do that.And so there's no shame, there's no blaming about that. It purely gives you an opportunity to notice. And then maybe at some point you'll have the ability to reach out for help. And for some of us, we don't have the ability to reach out for help for 5 years, 10 years. Some of us never in our life because we don't have the economic advantage or the educational support to do so.So it's just a small reminder that we all start in this area at completely different places on this spectrum of ability. And it doesn't mean you're bad or wrong. It simply means you are who you are with the life that you had. Laura: Sarah, I just want to – before we do our snacks – I just wanted to say, I felt myself get emotional at what you were saying there because it's just…the work that you're doing is so important and I know makes such a difference to the families that you help and I know you put a ton of like free resources and content out there.So I'm just really grateful to all the work that you're doing and yeah, just shining a light on these really difficult, challenging conversations in a way that is so compassionate and so just nuanced and thoughtful and yeah, I just know that you're making a big difference for a ton of people, so I wanted to say thank you.And I want to know what your snack is! At the end of every episode, my guest and I share something they've been snacking on. It can be a show, a podcast, a book, you know, like a literal snack, whatever it is that you've been really into lately. So what have you got for us? Sarah:  Yeah, well, this is actually something quite personal because, you know, I mentioned about being autistic.And that diagnosis came very late in life for me, only last year. So the thing I'm snacking on is noticing when it's possible to truly be myself, as opposed to do something that I've learned to do to make everyone else feel comfortable, you know, and that can be something as simple as, well, this isn't simple. Actually, this is quite challenging for me. I was at a, like a week long training for…a therapy training that I'm doing the other week. And instead of sitting on the chair, I sat on the floor because that's where my body felt the most comfortable. So, and it felt so damn good, you know, like it didn't feel just good to sit on the floor. It felt good to honour who I was. And so in an ideal world, I guess, honouring who I am wouldn't be a snack, but because this is a work in progress. It absolutely is a snack right now, and I'm grateful for it. Laura: Oh, I love that. And a lot of people who are part of the Can I Have Another Snack? community are neurodivergent, and I'm sure will really resonate with that experience of, yeah, unmasking and feeling like really comfortable doing that and how, yeah, just affirming that feels. So yeah, thank you for, for sharing that. Oh, my thing is just going to sound really trite compared to that, but my thing is a show, it's called Deadloch. Have you seen it?Sarah: Is that the Australian show? Oh, it's so good. Laura: Yeah. So, okay. So I'm excited to be able to talk to someone about it because I feel like not a lot of people have come across it.Uh, so it's set in Tasmania. It's all I can describe it as…is like a lesbian detective show. Sarah: That's about it. And like, it's so quirky, isn't it? Like it's just so random and weird and sometimes dark and sometimes hilarious. And it's sort of like, it's, it's wild. I'm so glad you love that. Laura: It is wild. And so there's, there's only one season, which is really disappointing, but it…each episode is an hour, so I feel like it's enough that you can, like, get stuck in. And I am someone who, like, my nervous system cannot handle a lot of stress, anxiety in the shows that I watch, I need to, like, be able to decompress. I do want to say that...it is a murder mystery, like it does ramp up in terms of the suspense across the season I want to say, but there's enough dark humour and comedy and, like, a lot of swearing and ridiculousness that it kind of like tempers it out and yeah, so it's really good. I highly recommend it. Sarah: It's amazing. Can I just say, from the perspective of sensitive conversations to the writers of that show, they had to write a rationale for why the word cunt should be in the script because it's used prolifically. For anyone who doesn't know, in Australian colloquial swearing language, cunt is used for lots of different things and it's important it was in there, culturally. It was super important. So I just loved that. And the other thing I loved was that – this isn't a spoiler – the victims of the crimes are not the gender you think, like you naturally assume them to be based on a lot of other like TV crime you would see.So there's some things that comes out and it just sort of skews your expectation based on what the culture has given you, that invisible influence of normal in crime shows, you know? Laura: There is a lot of cultural stuff that is a kind of cultural critique, I suppose, that around gender, around racism, there's a lot of stuff that it touches on, but there is prolific use of the C word.But it, it's just like the way that it is thrown in, it's just very well done. The whole thing is very well done. So highly recommend. Sarah: And can I just say one thing, because you said “the C word” and I think it's important. Because when I was about 28, I was able to reclaim the word cunt because I was in a relationship with an artist at that point and a poet.And he said to me, because I was like, Ooh, that's a yuck word, he said, did you know like, it comes from the old…Old English or Old Norse or something, something of like, when you're ploughing that there's like, the plough leaves a cunt behind in the soil. And I was sort of like, oh, that actually sort of made me feel like, well, that's sort of nice. Like it's a similar sort of look. And for some reason, it just made me feel like I think I could reclaim that word. Not that other people can't, but from that time on, I was like, yeah, okay, that word and I, we can coexist with relative equanimity. Laura: Do you know what? I don't even know why I censored myself because I say cunt all the time.You're a cunt, you're a cunt, they're a cunt. But I understand that maybe not everybody is as comfortable with that word.Sarah, before I let you go, can you let everybody know where they can find you and learn more about your work? Sarah: Sure. Well, my Instagram is @IAmSarahSproule. And at the moment in the season that I'm in, which is really about unmasking and making sure I rest as much as I can. There's not a lot of new things out there, but there is about three years worth of very detailed content there about how to talk to kids about all sorts of things that all different ages, and it's well worth trawling back through there and, getting your fill of support. So that's where the main place you can find me. Laura: Yeah, I will link to all of that in the show notes and there's some great farting content on there as well, which I really appreciate and enjoy. Sarah, it's been such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for sharing everything with us. I know we could have gone on for like another 90 minutes, but I will wrap up there and let you go. Thanks so much, Sarah.OUTROThanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today.  Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI this week: Let's Talk All Things Neurodiversity and Food* How are you flipping gender scripts for your kids?* Nourishing Full Bodied Awareness with Hillary McBride* Let's Talk About Snacks, Baby This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

On Today's episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection, we dive deep into disagreements with our guest, Laura Silverstein, who is a certified Gottman couples therapist. Discover with Dave and Liz all kinds of tips to help couples manage differences in their marriage shared by Laura. Timestamps: 0:00 – Introduction: Who is Laura Silverstein 1:47 – Conflict is not a bad thing in marriage 4:00 – The number one communication problem in couple relationships 6:21 – Two parts to establishing new habits 11:11 – Four horsemen – John Gottman 14:55 – What to do when both partners continue to be critical 18:27 – How to repair damages within a partnership 23:50 – Ownership, humility and kindness 27:05 – A little about Laura's book workbook 29:07 – Key to a stronger marriage connection 31:35 – Takeaway's About Laura Silverstein: Laura Silverstein is Certified Gottman Couples therapist as well as a recognized thought leader in the field of relationship wellness, sought out for her expert advice from media outlets such as, the New York Times and the today's show. In her book, Love is an action verb, Laura helps couples focus on their strengths instead of their problems and guides them with small step by step action plans. Insights: Dave: It takes humility, compassion, understanding and awareness when rebuilding something that has fallen. Take the time to slow things down and really look at things from a wider perspective Liz: Take ownership, be humble and stay kind when working through a repair in couple relationships Laura: It is important to have humility and stay humble when we enter loving relationships, no matter the challenges at hand Invites:    •    Take ownership, have humility and be kind. Those are key things to effectively repair a relationships    •    When things start to escalate, it is good to ask for a break – take a time out and revisit later    •    Two parts to learn – learning how to avoid conflict in the first place, if possible, and understanding how to get out of it once you are stuck Laura Silverstein Links: https://laurasilverstein.co Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways: Strongermarriage.org podcast.strongermarriage.org Facebook: StrongerMarriage.orgInstagram: @strongermarriagelifeTikTok: @strongermarriagelife Dr. Dave Schramm: https://drdaveschramm.com https://drdavespeaks.com Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/DrDaveUSU Facebook Marriage Group:https://www.facebook.com/groups/770019130329579 Facebook Parenting Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/542067440314642 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdaveschramm/   Dr. Liz Hale: http://www.drlizhale.com/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Actor's Space is a brand-new podcast hosted by Laura Kee, a freelance actor in Singapore. Through conversations with fellow actors, and industry colleagues, we will be talking about the working actor's life in Singapore – how do we pursue our love for acting, while navigating the business side of the craft? Let's create more conversations about the challenges of building an acting career in Singapore.   GUESTS Shannon Zann – emcee, actress & content creator Kimberley Kiew – multidisciplinary performer & yoga instructor KEY TAKEAWAYS Take classes to build your foundation as an actor. Track your income & expenses! Always track who owes you money, if any. Build a community with similar struggles and similar passions, to support and encourage you through the ups and downs. Your acting career is your small business – create an invoice template, know your worth, and negotiate your fees. In Singapore, you may not be able to survive on an acting income alone. Build viable alternative sources of income that may complement your acting work. QUOTABLE QUOTES ‘20% of your time will be on set or on stage. 80% of the time, you're working on yourself, you're working on your skills, you're going for auditions, … you are kind of just doing things that buffer and build your time on set and your time on stage.' – Kimberley  ‘At the heart of it all, this is a business, right? This is not just a passion or something that we're doing as a hobby. This is really our business and we are all small business owners of our own careers.' – Laura  ‘It's like YOLO but at the same time, you have a backup plan. Yeah, so we're not being reckless here okay?' – Shannon   Connect with Laura Website: www.laurakee.sg IG: instagram.com/LauraKeeLT TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@laurakeelt Connect with Shannon TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@shannonzanntv IG: instagram.com/ShannonZann Youtube: youtube.com/@shannonzann Connect with Kimberley IG: instagram.com/KimberleyKiew   Connect with us! Website: www.creativesatwork.asia Facebook: facebook.com/creativesatworkasia Instagram: instagram.com/freelancecreativeexchange Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/freelance-creative-exchange/id1401167998 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6gYc5ECrUgd1TNbVSWGw5w   Check out other series on our previous FCE episodes

In last week's episode, Laura Graber shared the story of being molested by her father and the fear and tension that was in their home. Many of those who've been abused struggle with debilitating anxiety and fear, which are exacerbated by hyper-vigilance. Laura struggled with the fear of taking a shower, being alone, and other situations. She turned to the medical community, and at one point she was taking as many as 11 pills a day, none of which helped. In this broadcast, Laura shares how God led her to overcome anxiety and fear. Laura Graber, Part 2 – Overcoming Fear, Anxiety, and Panic Attacks - Transcript ANNOUNCER: This radio program is PG-13. Parents strongly cautioned: some material may be inappropriate for children under the age of 13. Jesus's mission was to comfort those who mourn, bind up the broken hearted, proclaim liberty to captives, and open prison doors for those who are bound. For those who want more than status quo Christianity has to offer, Blazing Grace Radio begins now. And here is your host, Mike Genung. MIKE GENUNG, HOST, BLAZING GRACE RADIO: Hey, Mike Genung here. And welcome back to Blazing Grace Radio. Glad to have you along. Last week we talked with Mrs. Laura Graber from James Port, Missouri, and she shared how she grew up with a father who was basically sexually abusing her, and did a lot of horrible, traumatic things growing up. There was fear, and hyper vigilance, and if you've missed that show I'd encourage you to go online and listen to that first one. And before I start talking with Laura again, I want to introduce a question that many believers have when they're suffering. And we can go back to the book of Job for this because God allowed Satan to sift Job like few people in history have been sifted. Where Job lost ten kids in one day - I think it was seven sons and three daughters - killed in one day. He lost his business, and then he was left with the wife saying, "Curse God, and die." And then if you read through the book of Job, a lot of his questions are "God, why? What are you doing? Why'd you allow all this?" And that is a key question in life. So Laura, my friend, welcome back to the program. LAURA GRABER: Thank you, Mike. MIKE: And where we left off last week, as you had said, that you were bitter towards God for the things you grew up with, with your dad, and you mocked Christians. And how did you resolve the why question? "Why, God, did you allow this to happen to me?" LAURA: It took several years of, I mean... okay, so I should back up a bit. Like most of my preteens and teenage years, I was... I was very angry and bitter at God. And I remember, you know, hearing my siblings or different people talk about God. And in my mind, I made fun of them. I viewed Christians as weak. And I always told myself, you know, the moment I can get away from my dad and move out of this house, you know, I would... I would never let anyone hurt me like that again. I would never, you know, live like this again. So it was at the age of 20. I went with my cousin to church... haphazardly. And that day the sermon was on how much God loves us, the love of God, that he gave his son, and just, you know, all the aspects of that. And I remember walking out of church that day and I looked up at this guy and I was like, "I'm going to give you one chance, and you'd better not screw this up." I... it was, yeah. I'm [laughs] not your typical conversion story. MIKE: [chuckles] LAURA: Over the next several years I... my relationship with God grew. I mean, I'd be reading my Bible, I'd be praying, I started going to church. My life started changing. My physical aspects of it. But there was still a part of me that always in the back of my mind, like, I couldn't completely trust God. Because I didn't have an answer to explain the first 17 years of my life. I didn't know how to come to grips with that, like, how... what was in that. So I thought I was a Christian, you know. I thought I was a believer. Life was relatively well. I got married and then we had our struggles in our marriage, and it wasn't until probably, well, the wives retreat 2018 was pivotal. You shared, you spent some time in prayer and you shared a Bible verse with each of us women to take home with us. And this verse, I know it was the Lord, but it's in Deuteronomy 31 where it's, "Be strong and courageous, Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will never leave you or forsake you." And I remember that last night at the retreat, just being in my bed and just sobbing. Because I just had this picture that God was with me all those moments as a little girl. He saw what was happening. And over the next year, like, things kept on coming back to my mind just here or there of, like, "Wow, like, God was there in that." I remember, you know, someone showed up maybe in the middle of one of my dad's angry rants, like a neighbor to visit, or, you know, like, I got away from my dad here, or, you know, this happened that interrupted this from happening. And I just, like... slowly, like, God kept on bringing them to my mind. And even today, sometimes I... it's not as much today but definitely in that next year or two of just like realizing, like, God was there. He hadn't left me. And as an adult, I can see more and more where He did call my dad to repent him, He did send things in my dad's life. You know, my dad faced a close call with death, and different things like that. That should have woke him up, but he kept on choosing to live a life of sin, and be a slave to Satan, through all of that. But God was actually there in those moments. And I had just... I was blaming God for not changing my circumstances, instead of realizing that it was my dad's free will choice to be living in that sin and to rebel against God. And he was the one that... yeah. My anger need to be directed toward him more so than God, because God was there. So that was extremely healing for me to recognize, you know, of all the times that maybe horrible things did happen, but then all the times that God intervened at just the right times, and also sent help and relief, and protected me. He protected me profusely in different areas and instances that there's no way to explain except it was the Hand of God protecting me. MIKE: Mmm. So it sounds like he didn't answer the why, but he said, "I was there and I've always been with you." LAURA: Yeah, yeah. And that to me was like, you know, I... today now, I know that there's been a work done in my heart. And I have giftings, like, through the Holy Spirit working in me that I probably wouldn't have if I wouldn't have lived through all those things. But for me, the biggest thing was understanding that God is sovereign, and He actually has good for me, you know? After so many years of just thinking there's nothing good in this life, much less than God being good, like, understanding today at a much deeper level, like He has good for me and He didn't just, he's not going to let all those years of pain just go to waste. It's not going to just be a, "Oops!" like, "My bad! That shouldn't have happened." He's going to use it somehow. It's going to glorify Him. And I've already seen it glorify him, you know, in different areas in the life of being able to relate with people, or understanding maybe what someone else is going through that I wouldn't be able to if I wouldn't have walked through that. So he has already used it. I still don't know why fully, but I can fully trust that God is good and that He's sovereign and there's going to be good in it. And when I ever, if that day ever comes, that I do understand why completely... yeah, that would be great to know. But I don't battle with it anymore, because it doesn't matter. Because... I mean, it does matter, but it doesn't because God's sovereign. MIKE: Well, a couple pieces there. First off, you're glorifying Him right now by sharing your story in public. So when we share brokenness that's when God shines through the cracks. And so I love what you're doing, and being able to willing to share And so and I also believe that he takes every drop of suffering if we're willing to cooperate with him and he redeems it for his purposes. LAURA: Amen. Amen. MIKE: So it's wonderful to see you come to that place, and you're not even 30 years old, is that right? LAURA: I'm not. I'm 27 [laughs] MIKE: So you figured a lot out at a young age. That's great. LAURA: [laughs] I'm not sure if I figured it out, or have had to learn lessons the hard way, but God has been faithful to just continue to show me His truth. MIKE: Wow. LAURA: Very faithful. MIKE: And I know from my own personal experience we all have our days where we run into a concrete wall and say, "Oops, wasn't supposed to do that!" LAURA: Amen. MIKE: So you talked about transferring your bitterness to your dad. Did you come to a place of being able to forgive him? LAURA: I did. It was... I thought I had forgiven him. I could be around him. I still had this, like, big pit in my stomach when I'd see him at the gas station and, you know, I'd just wait in my car till he was gone, then I'd go inside. But I kept telling myself, "I've forgiven him, and I've read books and forgiveness, and I've talked with counselors about forgiveness," and, you know... like, all of that seemed so... I had done everything I'd been told to do, I guess. And I thought that I had forgiven him. But what really... I don't know, brought it to a deeper forgiveness - if that's the correct way to say it - was when things in my marriage... we started struggling, and the pornography, and the anger and stuff started happening in my marriage. And it was, like, I had to face the very fears of, "What if my life will always be like this?" You know, "What if it's like when I was a child?" Seeing aspects of that become my reality as a wife, as an adult, and having, like, through that God in his great mercy... like I can't even express His great mercy and all of that, to just gently be able to help me relive some of the things as a child and like, fully grieve those things, and being able to say, like... I wrote a letter to my dad. It took me couple months and I just wrote everything that he'd ever done toward me, or had hurt me, or let me down, or betrayed me, or just anything I could possibly think about. All the things I would say to him today if I could. And I remember just I had that letter in my drawer for a long time, and finally, one day - through something that had happened in my marriage - being able to just, like, sit and read that letter out loud. I was alone in my house, and I just read it out loud, and I pretended like I was reading to my dad. And I just sobbed. It was really, extremely painful. But after that, I can honestly say I can meet up with my dad somewhere. I can hear his name and I don't just instantly recoil in my stomach. I... what happens with him is between him and God. I don't need payment for what he did. I don't. He's never even said, "I'm sorry." And that used to be a big thing for me. And today it's like, that's not okay, but it is okay, you know? I don't even need an "I'm sorry," from him. Like, God will deal with him and will take care of him. And I pray for his salvation. I pray for God to have mercy on him because I don't want to see him being punished for the sins that he did commit. But I can genuinely say, yeah, he's free as far as I'm concerned. He doesn't need to pay for what he did and that's huge for me, to be at that place. MIKE: Yeah, we can... we have a choice between, "I'm going to hold on to forgiveness," or, "I'm going to choose to grab on the bitterness again." LAURA: Yeah. MIKE: So let's let's talk about fear, and anxiety, and spiritual warfare. Because those three are bound together often, and the enemy knows how to piggyback on fear or anxiety and attack with fear darts. And you grew up with a lot of hyper vigilance, and fear, and looking over your shoulder. And so what does that journey look like? And what have you been through? What has worked? What has not worked? LAURA: I honestly didn't realize how much fear and hyper vigilance that I lived with till a couple years ago. It was so normal for me. I was a highly active person, I worked a lot, was just busy all the time. And, like, that fear would... I mean, I was... I didn't go outside alone after dark, even as an adult. Like, I didn't even sleep alone in my house as an adult. Like, I just had... I was trapped with a lot of fears and anxieties. Anxieties about things that, you know, like, something as simple as taking a trip to Walmart to buy groceries, you know? I'd be watching people around me, someone watching me as someone following me to my car. Like, just, like, living in constant panic and fear. Showering. You know, there was a week when I had to force myself to shower because... just frozen in fear. Like, I lock all the doors leading back to the bathroom, the front door, the back door. And you know, just I had to shower when I was home alone, and just lots of fears and a lot of different areas. And I always just told myself, you know, "I'm healing, I'm overcoming it." You know, "There's going to be a day when this gets better," you know, "This is going to get better." And it did. And I think I had to walk through that journey of, you know, I did find healing a little bit here, and a little bit there, and all of that. But I did a lot of different counselings and also, like, you know, prayers and rebuke Satan, and then just - and I think all those things were helpful. They were helpful. But it all came to screeching halt in 2022. Or it was '21. It was '21, yeah. My husband left for a nine month program for sexual addicts and I was left alone in my house. So with there was a lot of trauma and things happening before he left. But after he left I completely lost my mind. The next two to three months I had panic attacks all day long throughout the night. I never knew what would trigger them. I couldn't even really work. I had a part-time job at that point. I spent a large part of my days, like hiding at my mom's house or a sister's house and just like my insides just shaking. I had anxiety that was... it was so intense I can't even put it to words. I got a medication, I got on a lot of different pills, I tried everything. I was finally taking like 11 to 12 pills a day, like, morning and evening, and sometimes at noon. Drinking, you know, a lot of, like taking a lot of, like, magnesium. Just things to calm me down. I take a bath before I went to bed at night. For several weeks on the end, I couldn't sleep for more than 20 minutes - MIKE: Mmm. LAURA: - during the night, and I'd wake up - be awake for several hours of panic attacks, and finally be able to sleep again for a little bit. It was, it was horrible. I cried out to God just over and over, like, "Just let me wake up from this nightmare!" Because it was... it was the most horrible thing I think, that I've ever had to walk through my life. And it's, like, somehow in those two to three months does all that fear and anxiety came tumbling out. And there was a pill that helped. I mean, it would help somewhat, but it didn't. There was... I tried to lean on people. I tried to lean on, you know, distracting myself, trying to busy myself. I tried every avenue possible. And once again, in God's grace, he didn't let anything work well. I mean, it worked maybe for an hour or whatever. I mean, I was getting massages. I was doing whatever I could just like calm my body down. Like just calm down. And finally, in all of that, there was only one place that I could go finally at the way end. And that was to trust God completely. And I remember, like, the week that me and God just hashed it out all week it felt like, when things slowly started changing. And I'm not saying that anxiety, and fear, and those things, "Oh, just trust God more." I'm not saying that in a flippant way. I think I had to have that, you know, 15 year journey, 20 year journey, 25 years, whatever number you want to put on it. I was 26 at the time when it happened, to finally... I'd be in my house by myself after dark. Like, being able to sleep peacefully, and just completely trusting that God was the only thing that was keeping me safe. And whatever he desired for me, for my life, I would accept. Whatever glorified him, I would accept. I started showering with all the doors unlocked, and I remember one day I was like, "What?" Like, "This is crazy!" But I was just like, "Whatever happens is in God's hands," like He's here and He's going to be here no matter what happens. And just being able to, like, lay in my bed at night, start having a panic attack, hyperventilating and all that, and just being able to just like... just over and over tell my brain like, "It's okay, you're having anxiety, but God's here. He's going to get you through it. You're going to breathe." Like, you know, all this time thinking I couldn't breathe and I'm going to die because I can't breathe. And just, you know, well, "Even if you die, you're still going to be okay," like just... there was like just this profound knowledge of that God is sovereign that He's here and He's going to take care of me and whatever He desires for my life is good. And is okay with me. Even if it was painful and excruciating and hard. And that, I mean, a year and a half later, I still - don't get me wrong, I still struggle with anxiety and fears coming. But I have never had a panic attack since then. I have not had the amount of fear I'm... the fear in me subsides so much quicker by going to prayer and just, like, spending time with the Lord. And I used to do all of those things before, but it's like somehow the depth of my heart, it needed to be settled that God was in control and nothing and no one could help me but Him. MIKE: Hmm. LAURA: And He was all that I needed. MIKE: I love it. So it sounds like in a way, and this is just kind of a general way of saying it, you went from... maybe a little deeper - and I'm not saying you didn't have a relationship with Him before - but He became more real and more powerful. LAURA: Yeah. MIKE: Is that true? LAURA: Yes, absolutely. He, for the first time in my life, like the past year and a half. But I honestly am completely confident that the Lord is with me, helping me, and is good, and I'm going to be OK. And that's huge. Huge for me to say. MIKE: And it sounds like surrender was a part of that, too. LAURA: It was, it was simply saying, you know, like, "God, even if my worst nightmare were to come true, you would still be God. You would still be here. You would still, you know, I just... I just give you my life, my rights, my... whatever I want, whatever I desire is yours." Like, "Have your way." MIKE: Mmm. LAURA: Yeah. MIKE: Spiritual warfare. What does that look like, and how do you deal with that? Because I know the enemy attacks those pressure points. LAURA: Amen. Today it's still hard for me to recognize sometimes when it's happening. All of a sudden I find myself, I'm doubting my husband, or I find myself doubting the goodness of God, or I find myself, you know, just struggling with, like, being able to relax at night. And then I start recognizing just the attack that Satan has been having on my mind, and my emotions, or my circumstances, and how he's just like trying to get in whatever door that he can. And I think the biggest thing for me, like in the spiritual warfare, is recognizing it is spiritual warfare and fighting it through prayer, and scripture. You know, it may not leave. It may not get better. But still choosing to have faith that God's here with me, He's hearing my prayers and reaching out to other people, it is incredibly powerful to be able to to call other Christians and reach out and say "Hey, I need prayer." Like, "I'm struggling. I'm drowning over here. I need some help with this." But this is bigger than me. Like can you be praying? I have a number of friends that I can call, and just right then and there, like, they'll pray with me and they'll check in and keep praying or, you know, send me messages of a prayer. And just like being covered in prayer has been one of the biggest weapons that I use in fighting spiritual warfare. MIKE: The surveys show that somewhere between 80-90% of US Christians are isolated. Meaning they don't have another believer to turn to. And Laura, we have two minutes left - LAURA: Wow. MIKE: - so take a minute. What goes through your mind when you when you hear that? LAURA: I feel incredibly sad for them. That sounds lonely, and hard, and devastating. Honestly. Because it weren't for other believers in my life, I wouldn't know the Lord as I do today. I mean, obviously God calls us personally. He speaks to us personally. He's personal with us. But having other believers around you to just walk along beside you, holding your arms up, you know, when you're weak. I often think of that battle in the Old Testament. When they hold up - was it Moses or Joshua's arms? - in the battle. And every time his arms would go back down, the Israelites would start losing the battle. So a few people stood on either side of him and held up his arms during the day so the Israelites would win the battle. And I often think of that as a physical form of having believers around you to hold up your arms when your your faith is low. Have, like, lean on other people's faith that their faith can stand in that gap for you and they can fight for you while you can't. MIKE: Amen. Laura, 30 seconds. Anything you want to say? LAURA: Definitely. Anyone who's struggling or, you know, just wondering how they will ever heal or get to the other side of something, there's so much hope. There's so much help for you, and God cares, and He's faithful, and He will get you through this, and get you - not to the other side, because I don't know if there is the other side - but He will continue to help you, and to trust in that. MIKE: I love it. And Laura, thank you for sharing your heart and your struggles the last two shows. I love it. I really appreciate your transparency. LAURA: Well, thank you Mike for what you do. You are appreciated. MIKE: Well, thank you my friends, and we'll see you next time. ANNOUNCER: Blazing Grace is a nonprofit international ministry for the sexually broken and the spouse. Please visit us at blazinggrace.org for information on Mike Genung's books, groups, counseling, or to have Mike speak at your organization. You can email us at e-mail@blazinggrace.org or call our office in Chandler, AZ at (719) 888-5144, Again, visit us at blazinggrace.org, email us at email@blazinggrace.org or call the office at (719) 888-5144.

Borys talks with Laura Kremer, an ecommerce consultant, about the interesting challenge why customers and agencies need support of 3rd party consultants. Listen to learn how to do it right and what are benefits for the customer and the agency. Borys We we can start with the with the break hello everybody I usually say we have a special guest but today we have a special guest Lara Kramer it it. is a special hour because we not often have women on podcasts. Yeah. Borys Everything about shopware usually is about guys men discussing about agencies implementations and so on and so on So I'm super happy that you are that you are here. You also work as a freelancer and a consultant. So I think we we might have an interesting topic for for everybody. But I think will be great if you could introduce yourself and say few words, What? exactly you do.   Laura  Yeah, thank you Boris for inviting me and you're so right there are unfortunately and not so many women and ecommerce. Um, so I'm trying to represent today some woman in tech and  Nice to meet you all? Um I'm the founder and Ceo of canlu gi biha based in Germany and um, while trying to explain what I'm doing on one hand I'm working as a consultant ecommerce   Laura I'm advising B Two C and B Two B companies within yeah questions like what kind of shop systems should they use what questions do they have for within ecommerce or within ecommerce landscapes. And on the other hand I'm working as kind of a matchmaker Um, between those companies or clients and suitable um solution for wires. This could be agencies freelances Tech solutions. Everything like that.   Borys - Okay, okay, so so ah, if we look at the typical market. There are agencies. Yeah, who are providing a different type of Services. So How do you see the role of an external consultant like you. You know what are the advantages I Assume for the customer to have an external consultant when someone decides to go with with the implementation shopware or if someone is looking for ah ah for the ecommerce platform. What's better in having consultant versus just going and asking you know 5 different agencies.   Laura  Yeah that's a very good question I think it has benefits for both of them. Um, for me personally I work very independent means I'm using my knowledge or I gain knowledge within the agency side client side and also within. Shopper itself. So um, yeah I'm using all this knowledge from Eight plus years within ecommerce to advice clients. Um independently maybe choosing the right shop system like shopware or maybe a our solution. Whatever fits to their needs and um it could also be a great benefit for agencies because I see myself and um or I like working very close with agencies means I'm maybe a pre-part before their work begins I'm clarifying strategies.   Laura  - I'm helping the client be or to have a more clear vision of what they are needing creating the briefing together and then I can yeah create a perfect match between those requirements and agency who fits very well.   Laura - The client and I think so it has benefits for both sides.   Borys - Yeah, and I see more in the more in general consultants on the market. Yeah why? Why do you think it happens why there is a demand on the market for those type of services or it's more. There is enough knowledge enough skilled people. So they decide to become ah become a consultant.   Laura - Yeah,, that's a good Question. We have a lot of consultants. That's true I Think on one hand we really have great people on the market so they gained experience maybe On. Merchant side or they decided to become self-employed after working for a tech solution Provider. Um, and normally I think there's enough space for all of us on the table and um I Also think could be.   Laura - It's not possible to advise clients within all specific topics within ecommerce because if we are looking at ah ecommerce and total you could advise within strategy within maybe Marketplaces or afterwards performance Marketing. Whatever is. Is needed on client side and so yeah, we have a lot of and consultants. Um I forgot the question forgot what I asking.   Borys - Okay, we we can cut we can cut at the cut up to this point. Okay, 2 seconds break you set. Um you work also as a matchmaker. Yeah, ah between agencies and service providers. Um, and of course the customer. So how does it work this this matchmaker.   Laura - Yeah, so um, within my experience. So I said I started 2016 in ecommerce and I first started in a big agency and after that I worked on software manufacturer side and later on on merchant site. So what I recognize within this years that there's um, there has to be a great fit between all of those parties means um the the softwares of course has to ah fit for the customer requirements while the custom has served.   Laura  - Should know what exactly he wants to implement and um, the perfect fit between the implementing service provider and the client is also crucial. So we have three parties. Um who and needs to work together and um, what I experienced within all those years were that.   Laura - A lot of projects failed because there was not fit between those three parties so in my new role I now try to help all of those three sides um means I sit down to the client I specify the requirements.   Laura - Um I have them find the right system and do this clear. Um, let me say this clear strategyy. Um I can then find a suitable system or take solution for their Needs. Um. And now the next factor will be who is able to implement this solution. So here I'm using my network of strategic partners and which can be agencies Freelancers Software solutions that I recommend those people I recommend to the clients. And had them find the right partner in cases on budget in cases of specific needs. Um, yeah, and that's that's what I'm doing.   Borys - Ah, so from so from that point a typical agency would focus on just selling. Yeah, whatever they want to sell um and if the customer has you as ah as a matchmaker.   Borys - It's easier to find out. You know what are the real expectation and what is the best fit here because there's also a challenge of the agencies Sometimes when I talk to customers. They also get confused. Yeah, they have like I met so many agencies everyone is saying something different I cannot. I Don't know what to do? Yeah, it's ah I cannot make myself a good judgment and a good selection of the of the agency.   Laura - True and I think that's that's quite normal once a 1 hand our the whole topic. Our language everything we both are doing is so complicated I mean it's such a specific field of. Yeah, things we are doing and we are talking in our own language. So I think that's the first problem people just visiting websites of agencies asking them themselves like what what the hell they are doing. You don't get it and um, yeah.   Laura - I Um I had the chance to work with a lot of agencies to really visit them on site to see how they work to talk to their clients and that's exactly the way I'm choosing somehow my partners to see what can what are they able to offer because.   Laura - And know agencies. They are so good in um, in creating B Two B Ecommerce Landscapes or to to um to help clients with um I don't know hosting problems. Whatever. And I think it's it's crucial to really match those two sides.   Borys - And would you agree? Ah that in general e-commerce became way more complicated, especially if you look at the implementation. Ah that there are so many different expectations. So many different platforms. Ah. And new technologies and so on everything is changing also so fast then the need for a customer it would be or it is very hard to to really evaluate it. So then in this way, your service is ah is necessary or in general a service of consultant who is. More experience to it for many many years and as you mentioned have a great connection to really be able to evaluate the differences between agencies becomes like a necessity for for a lot of customers.   Laura - Exactly you know everything is changing so fast. Um, think it's um or let me say I see myself. Um or it's necessary that you say like this. It's necessary that i'm. Um, informed I'm I'm really reading all the time about everything in ecommerce. So um I think we cannot expect our clients or merchants to overlook all those specific topics within ecommerce There's so much as you said was. From strategy to social commerce performance marketing. Whatever is within the whole complex of building up a store and having ah clients recognizing the store and having all the third -party systems integrated. Um so I think it's. Helpful to ask consultants for help and also to find good implementation. Partners um, really fit with the yeah specific um requirements you have as a maybe b two b company.   Laura - As that startup as an Enterprise company. Whatever is um, your challenge.   Borys- Okay, so I have I have a tough question then because if you work with many different agencies then what makes a good e-commerce agency. Ah what are from your perspective those those factors.   Laura - Um, will.   Borys - Some agencies are good in doing something. Ah, and also if the client should should only rely on um on the on the on the agency or maybe there are There are also memory Experience. Um. Freelancers that could do the job and you don't really need to to hire a full like agency with all all this type of different people.   Laura  - Yeah, have just smile right now because I I get asked this question so often of course and now. Yeah.   Borys - I will not ask for the names here. Yeah, which probably would be tempting. Um Ata let's not so let's not ask for a good a ecommerce says a name people can come to you and ask it. Ah ask it directly. But in general if you if you see how do you see those agencies here comparing them. What kind of factors or what kind of specific differentiators say make the agency as ah as a good agency commerce agency.   Laura - Yeah I think to answer the first question it always depends I know clients hate is answered and like you know, true. No, but.   Borys - Yes, you are consultants. Yes, yes you all you you have to answer this wait.   Laura - Um, what I wanted to say is that normally when starting to work with clients I Always get a lot of restrict answers on these questions I have clients who made maybe bad experiences with agencies and or an agency and then afterwards they are so.   Laura  - Sorry to say they're so pissed they they they are coming to me telling me like I would never work with an agency again same with freeances. Um I think both of course has pro and cons if you have an agency or let me be very clear I think when it comes to complex.   Laura  - Maybe complex b two b scenarios big big projects I think it would tend to recommend an agency with a project manager an agency who did that like 100 times while on the other hand freelancers are super flexible. They are not coming with this.   Laura - Project management overhead they they are in my experience they are. There are a lot of very good experts being very very good in their specific field. But.   Laura  - Nevertheless and if you're choosing an agency or a freelancer I think it's very very important that um that they are very transparent about the processes Very honest and um, asking questions in advance I Think that's.   Laura  - It's still a people business you you are working with people and as I said our topic is so complicated if you're not able to um to explain to your customer. What are you doing and why is that so.   Laura - And most cases so expensive what you're doing there. Um that you get a real problem. We have customers who really want to be informed all the time they want to see and which stage is my project. What is going on or going on who is responsible for my project.   Laura  - And you're also experienced customers saying I don't care but that's your topic Just do it I Want to be informed when it's ready and um, this is also a very good factor to match agencies and clients who's able to do it. Borys - Yeah, yeah, true when you when you present it this way that it looks it looks like you know there is a big big space. Yeah in the future also for ah, for such a role as a consultant. Especially that the the systems and the implementations will not get easier in the future. Yeah, they will even become more complicated. We'll have like ah composable commerce. Ah some Mark Mach architectures and so on so it will be even way harder to. To choose the right agency and and find the right. You know the right right? right person for that. So when you when you also work with the agencies. Then? how do you try to identify an agency as you mentioned you visit them, you talk to them you have like ah ah your like. Preset of questions a list or how does this type of interview if we could call it interview looks like.   Laura - Exactly so the core of agencies of freeances and Rica um, um yeah I'm just giving a recommendation to my clients I really worked with them in the last eight years so I had project with them. That's.   Laura - Of course the best factor because then I was kind of their clients too. I can really tell something about their um, kind of work but of course on the other hand I could not work with like 10 plus agencies. What I do is I have a set of questions. So I'm really, it's it's like an interview I'm I'm having video calls then I'm visiting them on site. Really I'm I'm there for full day watching how they work what is this setup. How do they approach clients and then on the other side I'm really talking to the clients.   Laura - Um, asking them and in the best cases those agencies were also recommended to me by maybe also other agencies or freelances work there before um and if I get a good gut feeling I'm I'm totally honest with you. Um.   Laura - And I'm um, yeah, then I think then I can recommend them trying to have first projects to really work with them to see how they proceed. Um, but it's a crucial fact I think all consultants know that your your acting with with your name.   Laura - So I'm giving recommendations I'm really strict about my strategic partners I don't have to tell you how many people writing me with the like Violin that maybe telling me like maybe you can recommend us and yeah, yeah, we will pay you.   Borys - Yeah I can imagine that. Yeah.   Laura  - X Eelon Thousand Euro And even if it sounds a bit romantic I will never do it because I really have the my goal is to really advise my clients I mean.   Borys - Of course, yeah, but this is also also your brand because yeah, if you if you work this way then it's a huge responsibility because if project doesn't go goods. Yeah, then. The customer is not coming to the agency as a first line but. We come to you and say lauraa you recommended those guys and they completely. Yeah they are and they are not a good fi yeah so it's it's a huge It's a huge responsibility on your side also doing a right type of choice. Yeah.   Laura - Yeah, right I think it's necessary that they that they trust you if um, if a client or someone's approaching me didn't get the feeling that I'm really looking for the best solution or really, um.   Laura - Can offer a wide range of experts. Then there is no no way to work together. Of course.   Borys - Yeah, and if you work with some projects as a consultant. Um, do you see like a typical scenarios for hiring a consultant are a certain project more I don't Know. Have more you know predisposition to get ah to to need to need a consultant or you see that there's completely while different ranges of ah of projects that you are working on and and it's more a matter of the of the customer. Yeah who is.   Borys - Ah, enough advanced to be able to say hey I need the help with this.   Laura - Yeah, very very good question I think of course of course it depends on how um, how much knowledge you have with an ecommerce. It's easier for people who are maybe have an enough experience with any ecommerce. But.   Laura - Um, no, there are typical scenarios. Um, mostly when they have the feeling that the whole ecommerce system or processes are kind of stuck they feel like maybe they and there would be um there there are some um possibilities to really.   Laura - I Have more conversion maybe within the store or um, yeah, they often ask for them for shop audits to really see what's the status quo. Um, what kind of systems we are using. Um, maybe we can refresh them and another example would be.   Laura - If they are using um, kind of a shop system and not quite sure if this is still the best solution for them. So when it comes to yeah migration projects. Um, they are often asking for. Um, yeah.   Laura  - Experience with other customers. Um, or they have questions like how how much time will it need how about data data management or data migration within all those projects. Um, yeah I would say that those are.   Laura - To be go to be good questions.   Borys - Okay, yeah, but it also requires you know on the other hand if the customer knows or he's ready doesn't have a problem with asking for help then usually that's that's a very good.. That's a very good symptom. Yeah, um. Ah, for you but also for the agency and for the project Overrolia then it means that someone is really open would like to do it right? Yeah instead of being stubborn and like I know how to do the project and then there is a big big Thing. So is there anything in common with this customers. Do see some some some common think with the customers who are ready mature enough to ask for a consultant help.   Laura  - Um, yeah I think that changed over the years Um, years ago they were um, it was a bit challenging to really advise them because I had a lot of.   Laura - Me personally I and a lot of customers were very strict and their opinions were not that open right now I have a lot of clients being very honest, very honest and with the situation opening up telling me like I have the feeling.   Laura  I cannot overlook the whole ecommerce options we are having. So um I'm relying on you and your expertise your your market view. Um, Nevertheless if it's if it's woman man what kind of ages.   Laura - They are getting them more open nowadays.   Borys - Yeah, okay, and um, because yet for an agency this is or this could be a kind of you know competition or or kind of threat. Yeah. Have a consultant who sometimes not allow agency to do stupid stupid things. So how do you approach you know an agency in such case. Yeah, that to the agency see that there is ah some smart Third -party yeah within all the process who knows what's going on. Um, who can explain many things so how agencies react when they see that there is a customer with the with the consultants. Do they do they take it as a kind of competition threat ah or or they or they like appreciate this. Ah. Ah, the situation that there is someone someone who can also explain the customer you know some that some of the expectations are completely. Yeah useless or there are some other ways to to achieve it. What are your experiences with the agency approach to you with in the project.   Laura  - I had agencies in the beginning who were very concerned about me being a third party as you said and because they thought I'm going to be in competition for them on while talking to them. We could experience that or clarify.   Laura  - And I'm more like an I think additional puzzle piece' I'm I'm even helpful I will say because um I think um, it's easier also for the agency if um, they are talking to a to a customer a potential customer who's.   Laura - Pre-informed who already talk to someone could ask their questions so they are kind of more clear within their goals. They are bringing for the new system for the the solution they want to have and um yeah I'm kind of the lawyer. Maybe for the client because.   Laura  - And normally really if I do this matchmaking thing I'm um, always within the first calls. So I'm bringing them together and sometimes and that's what agencies don't like I'm of course also advising them when it comes to the offer.   Borys p You know? so you you verify the cost and say oh no, no this is too much. Yeah, and then they then they don't like you they're like oh no.   Laura - From the ancient one and they are offering him. Um, yeah I would say sometimes then we have kind of discussions. Let me say like that. But no normally a.   Laura - As I said I know the agencies I know the price range they are operating in and I would never recommend them if I know that it's way over the budget of of my client. But yeah, um, right Now. Um I have very good connection to those agencies. Really appreciating it I think we could. We can be very clear.. There are not only agencies within 50 plus employees. So Some of them are built from people being super super intelligent being technical experts.   Laura - But maybe they're not so much into sales So that's I think that's a good add on to have a consultant who leads potential customers to your agency If that's a good fit.   Borys - So. Yeah, true I mean I agree with you looking from agency perspective to wars type of customer if I could say so yeah is the customer that doesn't have the knowledge and experience. Yeah, because then. You really have to on 1 side spend a lot of time explaining the basis. Yeah, or sometimes yeah it would be so nice to have someone within an experience on the customer side to explain him. Okay, this is how we do the integration. Yeah, it's not like our idea. But this is how in general it should be done that it's ah that it's working properly and if the customer has no experience. No clue then then let's call it like a third -party an independent third party. Ah, who could so. Ah, in some way focus on the the project goals and explain the customer hey it isn't a good idea and the agency is right? Yeah that's how it should be done in many cases I think would help agencies to.   Borys - Solve the problem with how to say a tough customers or or or a complex project for for the customer who doesn't have the the experience. So from my point I Absolutely agree with you. It's ah. For the agency. It's It's a very convenient situation yet that there is someone um, smart who can help customer understand the project who can explain something as being more more trusted. Yeah than an agency where there's always some kind of. Ah, low. Trust that Okay, the agency is trying to sell me more things. Yeah or they're trying to to to convince me to do something which um I might not necessarily need but it will be good for agency because they can charge more for some services.   Laura  - Yes I think they get customers on the silver tray because um I'm not only bringing customers. Okay, bringing customer sounds like yam I'm just giving leads but I guide customers to those agencies with a finished briefing so they know.   Laura  - We know how it is normally you're just really talking one on 2 times with the customer just to really clarify what they maybe want to have and know how it works I have customers approaching me and telling me like I have thirty k budget.   Laura - And my marketing agency said I will now need magenta 2 and then I'm like okay maybe we let's start. Let's start from the beginning so you know where it works and and if this work is done and you really um.   Laura - You can really give some insights to the to the customer and help them to to get a clearer view on the whole system I think then the agency can really concentrate to show their skills to show what they can offer to bring the solution to the customer.   Borys - Yeah, and do you see also looking at the market that there is more and more knowledgeable people on the customer side. Um, because at least what I see is like looking at at least few years back um, in many cases we as an agency start to see the difference. Yeah, that ah, there is more people with the experience on the market in the and in general um like more people understanding. For example. What it means that we are doing an agile project people with with some experience. So overall, the situation is ah is ah is better even though it's not easier. Yeah, because the the overall complexity of the systems is ah is higher. But do you see that the customers are havinging more and more. People with with some experiences and the whole discussions are becoming a little bit easier.   Laura - Yeah, totally agree. So I have customers who are calling me being very um, pre-informed so they know sometimes they are telling me like we Ah, we decided to go with this shop system and in.   Laura  - Right now in a lot of cases I can really agree on their decisions and it's more like really going in detail just um, yeah, guiding them through maybe like third party or the whole the whole project. How can it look to really um, really create the whole project for them.   Laura - Um, but let me be honest I don't know why maybe it is because the shop there at the I'm also talking about this. Um, maybe it's it's because the the shop solution providers or the tech providers. Um, getting more information or they they are providing more information which is easy to consume. Um I think we have a lot of media. Um, also Linkedin is of course a big information platform for a lot of people.   Borys - Yeah, for sure. Yeah there's there's there's small knowledge of course on the other hand if we can imagine even today. Ah yeah, as we are ah probably there are hundreds if not thousands of projects just happening today. Yeah so. So every new project every new day during the implementation that's ah, that's the knowledge that some people are getting it from from what's going on on the progress and so on. So for sure. It's ah it's also it's also that the market is becoming more mature and have and have those experiences. Yeah. If you would look few years back. Not so many people had any experiences about ecommerce implementation now if there's so many shops online someone did this job and some some experiences has been has been achieved.   Borys And yeah, and looking also on the on this consultants. Let's say markets. Do you see like more and more consultants. Um, if you look at Linkedin or some some some other some other location by the way like how people find Julia how how does it work people like just going to Google and try to look like. Ah, good consultants to implement shopware um shop. How do they find you.   Laura - Yeah, more. Um I think I'm very thankful for a broad network I'm just I have a lot of people within an ecommerce. So this. A lot of them. There are a lot of clients coming through word of mouth and still but I'm also trying to put my face in every situation posting myself on Linkedin. So it's just so ah, an important challenge it a channel for me and um I don't like it.   Laura - I don't like saying that but still as you said in the beginning. It's kind of special that I'm a female consultant with an ecommerce especially in Germany. Um, right now I experience you know we both.   Laura - Work for shopping united I'm allowed to see or to visit a lot of european cities and meet people from the ecommerce field and especially when it comes to the Netherlands or Uk I meet a lot of amazing woman working Mecommerce and I feel.   Laura - It's not I don't know why Germany is not that there are not so many women. So um, ah yeah I would never say I feel like how can I say it I feel like um. Mistreated or something I think it's exactly the other way around. It's it's ah if you are smart if you're really interested interested in your topic and you can help clients then it could be even an advantage to be a woman to be a bit more special maybe in the german market.   Laura  That sounds a bit weird. But I think you know what I mean and.   Borys - Yeah I know I mean still if you look at so I believe there is a lot of like women in ecommerce but not necessarily in E-commerce technology. Ah so if you look at ah, most of the fashion shops a lot of of people working there as ah, product owners. Yeah, Or. Or or or working with performance with some campaigns that would be women but you're right if you look at purely technology if you look at the the systems implementations. Ah, that's yeah, That's ah more this I part there is there. There is less woman there. That's that's that's true. And it brings a lot of like you know diversity because I think yeah you you would have probably a little bit different opinion and it would be very valuable think that if there is ah a male team on the customer side and the mail team on the agency side and and. And a new in between that you can have a completely different view completely different. You know, um, experiences to share. So Overall the project value will be way way better.   Laura  - Yeah I think to sum up my superpower and this is that I'm I think I didn't mention I'm I'm not a deaf I didn't delearn I'm I'm not from the technical side. So originally I did my master within marketing communications.   Borys - Okay, yeah.   Laura - And I'm very honest and transparent about this fact I got when I entered the Ecommerce market or the ecommerce topics I felt so lost in the beginning and I'm I'm always very honest about that because I think that brings me closer to my clients.   Borys - Okay, thank you.   Laura - I know how it feels to be within all those specific you know words and situations and every time back then in 2016 when I every time I saw it now I got it the whole system changed so it was like constantly learning.   Laura - And um, yeah to um I think the best factor is that I'm I'm able to talk within or the the tech language and I'm also able to talk to explain that to clients in a very non-technical way This um.   Borys - Yeah, that's that's that's also a great great experience. Yeah, but ah summarizing it as you mentioned I think as me being a kind of a third party in this case. Yeah I truly believe that having ah an external consultant. Ah.   Borys - Who can help customer make some decisions. Ah, who's also helping agency because it's ah it's explaining. Yeah, it's more trusted trusted site in the project explaining customer. Why for example, some test needs to be done and why they need to allocate some budget for. Some quality testing or some some some other type of Testium or most customers says like why would you do any tests So I truly believe in it that a role of role of consultant is is super important I Also truly believe that. It's also the it will grow a lot. Yeah because the the overall ecosystem will become more and the more more and more complex and people with experience who are ready to share who are ready and have this you know, ah, kind of skills to cooperate with. The customer with the agency and help help to make the project Successful. It's also it's also super super important Laurra So Great to have you here I think it's It's a very interesting perspective here for um, for shopper community Also to be aware that. Such a role as a consultant exists and ah it can help with the with the implementation and I think yeah I keep my finger crossed and wish you a good project at good Agencies. You know for the cooperation and and all the success.   Laura  - Thank you Boris and thank you for inviting me to this podcast.    

Today I'm talking with Dr. Scott Griffiths. Scott is a senior lecturer in the School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne. He leads the Physical Appearance Research Team, a multidisciplinary group of researchers and health professionals who investigate body image, appearance related stigmas and discrimination, appearance enhancing substances, appearance enhancement and appearance related psychological disorders such as eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorder.I wanted to talk to Scott about the phenomenon of muscle dysmorphia, a disorder that sits somewhere between a body dysmorphic disorder and an eating disorder that tends to impact cis boys and men. It's sometimes characterised as the male anorexia. Of course cis boys and men get anorexia too, but muscle dysmorphia is a bit different. It's sometimes known as Bigorexia. It's when an individual doesn't believe that they're big enough or sufficiently muscular to the point that they devote their lives to gains and progress in the gym. They might follow extremely strict diets which prioritise protein and cut out a lot of carbohydrates, and in some cases men can turn to using anabolic steroids, which have some really serious long-term effects for both physical and mental health as you'll hear us talking about. A lot of Scott's research is about the ways that social media, and particularly TikTok feeds people who are vulnerable to eating disorders or muscle dysmorphia, more and more content that upholds unrealistic body and image based ideals, and actually fuels eating disorders.It's really interesting research to hear about, but as a parent and as someone who works with eating disorders, it's really terrifying.Find out more about Scott's work here.Follow his work on Twitter here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Scott: When you're on your feed and TikTok is delivering videos for you to consume, all of the reference points you are getting from content that it's popular and influential and that people are responding to it. It's so divorced from reality that you've got a greater pool of people comparing and feeling poorly about themselves and now investing in the general necessity of looking better.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to Can I Have Another Snack? I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet, registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. We're having conversations about how we nourish ourselves and our kids in all senses of the word in the hellscape that is diet culture.Today I'm talking with Dr. Scott Griffiths. Scott is a senior lecturer in the School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne. He leads the Physical Appearance Research Team, a multidisciplinary group of researchers and health professionals who investigate body image, appearance related stigmas and discrimination, appearance enhancing substances, appearance enhancement and appearance related psychological disorders such as eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorder.I wanted to talk to Scott about the phenomenon of muscle dysmorphia, a disorder that sits somewhere between a body dysmorphic disorder and an eating disorder that tends to impact cis boys and men. It's sometimes characterized as the male anorexia, which of course cis boys and men get anorexia too. But muscle dysmorphia is a bit different. It's sometimes known as bigorexia. It's when an individual doesn't believe that they're big enough or sufficiently muscular to the point that they devote their lives to gains and progress in the gym. They might follow extremely strict diets which prioritize protein and cut out a lot of carbohydrates. And in some cases men can turn to using anabolic steroids, which have some really serious long-term effects for both physical and mental health as you'll hear us talking about. A lot of Scott's research is about the ways that social media, and particularly TikTok feeds people who are vulnerable to eating disorders or muscle dysmorphia, more and more content that upholds unrealistic body and image based ideals and actually fuels eating disorders.It's really interesting research to hear about, but as a parent and as someone who works with eating disorders, it's. Really terrifying. So you'll notice that this episode has a slightly different vibe to some of the other episodes this season. I'm asking Scott more about his research on muscle dysmorphia rather than his, you know, personal story. And I'm curious to hear what you think of this episode and get some feedback from you as to whether you'd like more interviews with academics, researchers and practitioners with a particular kind of expertise or on a particular topic like this, in addition to hearing people's lived experience. So if you want, you can drop me a comment over on Substack underneath this episode, um, which you can find at laurathomas.substack.com.And while I have you here, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely listener and reader supported, but in order to be able to cover the costs of admin and people and pay guests and contributors. A lot of my time is devoted to other work outside of the newsletter. That means I have less time to bring deeply researched essays as well as thoughtful interviews here on the podcast. I'd love to be able to devote most of my time to the work and the community that we're building here, but that means I need a lot more of you to consider becoming a paid subscriber. I also know that that's a big ask right now. So for the month of March, I'm running a one off spring sale on Can I Have another Snack subscriptions. They are 20% off, so for this month only, if you subscribe, you'll pay four pounds a month or 40 pounds for the year instead of five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year, which is a bargain. I'm not going to be running this good a deal for the rest of the year, so now is the time to cash in. If you've been sitting on the fence it's time to make a move. I'll put a subscription link in the show notes. You can also gift a subscription to a friend or family member or a coworker and get that same deal. And remember that if you want to sign up with some pals or like your NCT group from five years ago, you always get 20% off of group subscriptions. So I will also link to group subscriptions in the show notes.Okay, team, I appreciate your support and hopefully one day we can make this work more sustainable, so I can give up my side hustles. Thank you so much for being here. Here is my interview with Scott Griffiths.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Scott, I would love it if you could start by telling us a little bit about how you got interested in studying appearance related psychological disorders like body dysmorphic disorder and eating disorders.Scott: When I was a teenager, I worked at a cinema and someone who worked there who was kind of a friend of mine, a young woman, she had anorexia, and I remember at the time being completely mystified by her ailment and predicament. And it's probably quite stigmatizing in retrospect because it seemed to me as a, you know, kind of a fool, that the solution to her problem was readily at hand.Like she was really thin and, and just needed to eat. And that kind of set my thinking in motion about the really complex feelings and beliefs that folks can have about their body and their eating, et cetera. And it was when I was in undergraduate doing a, a Bachelor of Psychology that I had a couple of friends, both young men who would say things to me that would remind me of that young woman who had anorexia in the cinema and things they would say were similar, but the manifestations of them were different. The kinds of eating and, and training and the bodies that they wanted for themselves were all different, but it's core, it seemed like the same kind of issue and disorder. So I think that was what got me interested. And it's developed a lot since then.Laura: Yeah, it's so interesting. I think you know that I work with people with eating disorders and something I often hear from them is like, well, it just, how misunderstood that the disorder is, and from the outside, especially to anyone who knows nothing about eating disorders, it seems like, yeah, it's really simple just to eat more food.But I think you've been on your own learning journey with that and, and come through the other side and realized it's, it's a lot more complicated than that. These people would, you know, if, if it was just, just as easy as eating food, they would do it. But unfortunately that's, that's not the case.Sorry, that was a little tangent cuz I think you were touching on something that I know is really important to those with lived experience of eating disorders. And then kind of moving further along, it's really interesting that you saw the parallels between anorexia nervosa and then what I think you would probably characterize as body dysmorphic disorder. Which is the same but different. And maybe the same is too much of a stretch. But it's similar, but also different. So I'm wondering for people who are unfamiliar with body dysmorphic disorder, can you tell us what exactly it is and maybe some of the, the des describing more of the parallels between something like anorexia nervosa or what we would consider to be a more traditional in inverted commas eating disorder versus what we see in the BDD presentation.Scott: When I was talking with those, those friends, those young men when I was at university the disorder that would best capture what was going on for them is something we call muscle dysmorphia, which is a subtype of body dysmorphia disorder, which kind of sits alongside eating disorders. They are distinct, but they're often comorbid.They both have body image often as a central element. So body dysmorphic disorder, the cardinal symptom is you believing there is a defect in your appearance. It can be completely imaginary or it can be real, but the severity of it in your head is almost always much more severe than it is in actual objective reality.And in the context of muscle dysmorphia, which many people, including myself, see more as an eating disorder than body dysmorphic disorder. The defect in appearance is guys, some girls, but often guys who objectively are, are very large and muscular, but when they look in the mirror, what they see reflected back to them is someone who is scrawny, out of shape or overweight.Just a big difference to how they actually are not at all dissimilar to anorexia where we have people, often young women predominantly, but also some men who look in the mirror and see someone reflected back to them who is very different to how they actually look.Laura: It's interesting that you said that you characterize muscle dysmorphic disorder as more similar to an eating disorder than to true body dysmorphic disorder, and I'm curious to hear a little bit more about why you feel like it fits more into that category.Scott: Yeah. To be fair, when people debate about whether muscle dysmorphia ought to be a body dysmorphic disorder as it currently is classified or an eating disorder, it feels a little bit like a semantic exercise.Laura: Absolutely.Scott: The real push and importance in research as far as I'm concerned, is trying to understand both disorders and develop better treatments and trying to figure out which, which category where there's so much overlap between these two categories already, it belongs to, feels a little like a moot point, but to, to answer the question. For me, it's because when you look at the central pathology that motivates folks with muscle dysmorphia, the low self-esteem, especially around appearance, the kinds of things they believe with respect to why they have to look a certain way in order to have worth and be loved.The attention given to dieting and to exercise and the inability to tolerate deviations from that, the need to constantly progress, the perfectionism, it's all there. It all feels like different sides of the same coin. And when I speak to people, including yourself and your audience, it feels to me like explaining away muscle dysmorphia as one manifestation of an eating disorder, kind of like anorexia, or the reverse of it is just an easy way to see how it is that eating disorders are so much more than just thinness, that they can manifest in all sorts of different ways depending on the types of bodies that people feel compelled to achieve for themselves.Laura: Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. And I'm, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about sort of, you know, maybe not with going with, without going into tons and tons of detail that might be upsetting to hear, but just tell us a little bit about, a bit more about you know, how would you know if someone had muscle dysmorphic disorder? You know, I'm thinking about parents who, you know, what are the signs and symptoms that someone might want to look out for that are sort of red flags, if you will.Scott: Got you. So, when you're trying to identify red flags, some muscle dysmorphia, a useful starting point is to recognize that almost everything that is common in muscle dysmorphia can exist and be benign. So you can train five, six days a week every day of the week if you want. And it's completely fine, as long as it's working for you.You can diet right, and it can be fine. Not a psychological disorder if it's working for you. It's not encouraging people to go and do it, but it's not a psychological disorder to do it in muscle dysmorphia. It's when there is a preoccupation and that preoccupation is causing impairment. So it could be that your training and dieting have become so strict that when you feel that your training or dieting are about to be compromised in some way, maybe there's an important social occasion that you have to attend, and it means that you don't get to stick to your diet or go to train or something unexpected comes up, and you have to prioritize that other important unexpected thing.If that brings you anxiety and guilt makes you angry at yourself, then you are in the territory of massive dysmorphia as opposed to just behaviors that are otherwise benign with respect to disorder.Laura: Yeah, so you're just highlighting here that you know, the behaviors in and of themselves are not pathological. You know, plenty of people go to the gym, you know, they are super careful with their diet. Where it runs into kind of hot water is when, you know, that becomes almost like all encompassing.It takes over your life. It doesn't allow for any flexibility. It becomes very rigid. You can't go to your mates birthday party or just like, go pick up a pizza after work because it's a mess. So that flexibility in eating, that flexibility in your social life, but also I suppose kind of the feelings of guilt, remorse, stress, that might come up if you do do those things.Scott: That's right. And the deteriorations tend to come from many places. They don't just come from one. So maybe you find that on the days where you have to rest where you can't be in gym training, cuz you've gotta have a couple of rest days to recover, you don't feel so good on those days. Maybe every time you don't progress in the gym, so you're not adding on to the weight, you're not getting stronger, it makes you feel like rubbish.Whereas when you first started out, maybe all of those things made you feel really good. Maybe your relationships are starting to suffer. Maybe your partner has had four or five conversations with you now about how they don't like how it's so challenging to go out to a restaurant, et cetera, etc.There's going to be no one thing, but the things tend to all come. Together. And what's challenging as you would well know in the eating disorder space is that the person who is in the thick of it is sometimes not the best judge of how extreme and rigid what they are doing is, and not uncommon at all to have folks who've come out the other end of these disorders look back and say, oh man, I can't believe I didn't see just how crazy it was for me at that.Laura: And that's a really important point, and I'd like to come back and think a little bit about how particularly a parent might address this or raise their concerns with you know, maybe their teen who they know is becoming super fixated on the gym and really rigid around that.Maybe we could come back to that because I feel I still wanna characterize a little bit more of what might be going on for people with muscle dysmorphic disorder. And a big piece that I feel like we haven't talked about yet is the use of anabolic steroids.So yeah, could you tell us how that and maybe any other kind of diet aids and things fit into the picture of muscle dysmorphic disorder?Scott: Yeah, sure. So, if you wanted to be thin and skinny and you were going to abuse drugs to get there, you might use laxatives and diuretics. If you wanna be big and muscular the drug that will typically be abused is anabolic steroids. So the most basic anabolic steroid is just a synthetic form of testosterone, the sex differentiating hormone that men tend to have more of than women, and it helps to synthesize muscle. So if you wanna be bigger muscular, if you've been influenced by, you know, famous fitness influencers, many of whom are using steroids, it may be something you're tempted to turn to and unlike with laxatives and diuretics, where if you take them, they don't have any substantive impact on the calories that you absorb (another way of saying they don't work very well). anabolic steroids, unfortunately do work very well. It's a bit of a public relations disaster, really.Laura: Can I just put a tiny caveat that for people who abuse laxatives and diuretics, in terms of, I just wanna highlight that they are still really dangerous and they can cause electrolyte imbalances. Just because I know people with eating disorders will listen to this podcast and I've worked with eating disorders for long enough to know that they will hear that and think, oh, okay, that means they're safeSo, I just want to highlight that it can cause problems in terms of your intestines. There can be problems with, I'm forgetting the terminology now, but basically twisting your intestines because it just messes with your digestion so much.I'm thinking about laxatives here, but also it can cause dangerously low electrolyte levels in the body, which can cause fits and seizures. So they're not benign, and I don't want anyone to walk away with the message that they're benign. But that's aside from what you're talking about, which is that yeah, you know that people with muscle dysmorphic disorder are more likely to abuse steroids.So, yeah. Could I pass it back to you now?Scott: Of course, and steroids on top of being effective, which makes them very attractive in terms of, you know, as a temptation they also have rather significant health consequences, especially in the long term. But why I bring up the fact that they are effective for building muscle into such a significant degree that you have outfits like the International Olympics Committee who test for doping.The use of things like steroids in sports is because once you're on them, you will experience the progress that you've been craving and to a very significant degree. So folks will get on them, they will put on a lot of muscle, they might even lose some body fat at the same time, which is incredibly challenging to do if you are not on these substances.And of course, they feel. for a time, but they still have the core beliefs and attitudes and thinking so that high doesn't last for very long. But now not only are they not satisfied with their current size often, but to drop in size by coming off would trigger the kinds of intense feelings and distorted thinking that you also see when folks with anorexia are going through recovery and are, you know, weight restoring.So it's incredibly challenging. And what ends up happening is that you have to then treat both the muscle dysmorphia, which is very much a psychological disorder, and the anabolic steroids and their effects, which is an endocrine impactor. And dealing with these in combos is challenging.Laura: And, I was just wondering if you could talk a little to the, the longer term side effects of of the steroid use.Scott: Sure. So the longer term side effects tend to focus on increased mortality and morbidity from, from cardiovascular events, heart attacks, enlarged hearts. The endocrine effects focus predominantly on the capacity of your endocrine system to resume a normal amount of testosterone production endogenously, so from within, subsequent to stopping steroid use.Because when you flood your system with anabolic steroids or synthetic testosterone, the reason men's testicles shrink is because most of the function of testicles is to make testosterone. So the body says, oh, I'm full of testosterone. Now I'm not gonna make any more myself. But when you doing the injections of the tablets and you don't have that testosterone coming in, the body has to restart that system from scratch. And as we've learned, it is not very reliable at doing that. And it is very unpredictable how well that is gonna happen. And there's many, many, many instances of men as young as 23, 24, who will be on testosterone replacement therapy for their entire life, and who have their fertility are greatly compromised now because their bodies have not resumed normal testosterone production.Laura: Yeah. What you're describing is really similar to what happens when once this women are taking the contraceptive pill and then they come off of it and they might not restart their period for five or six months after, hopefully all going well. But what you're talking about, I think in muscle dysmorphic disorder, where there's an abuse of these drugs that those, as I understand it, the doses are much higher than a typical physiological dose.And so the impact, the effect is much, much greater and could last a lot longer, you know, if function is ever fully regained.Scott: Yeah. To give you some context, a beginner's of anabolic steroids, a beginner steroid cycle, if you will, might prescribe something like 500 milligrams of testosterone enate, a really commonly available steroid. I'd wager a bet that it's most widely available in the UK, certainly is in Australia. That beginner's dose is already five times higher than the maximum that a healthy male would produce on their own. And that much testosterone, flooding a system is beyond the bounds of what the human body is used to dealing with. Laura: Yeah. And, and you mentioned you know, the UK context there and there were headlines a couple of years ago that suggested that first of all, that predominantly steroid users in the UK were were using steroids as an appearance or an aesthetic related, you know, for aesthetic reasons rather than for purely like bodybuilding lifting reasons.Although I, I can imagine those things get kind of murky to tease apart and. At that time, I think this was about 2018 the, the reports were that there were about a million steroid users in the UK for, you know, for aesthetic reasons. Is that an accurate reflection? Do you know? Like, is that likely an underestimation, an overestimation, or do we have any, any real sense of what's going on?Scott: I'd say there's a great chance that's an underestimate. Steroid use is incredibly stigmatized. It's heavily criminalized and users are extremely loath to admit even to health professionals that they use anabolic steroids. And you see these schisms even in fitness communities online. So Instagram, TikTok, where there's this constant accusations that someone is using steroids or is natural or bloody for short. So, it's all very underground and it means that whenever you do get an, an estimate based on data that is credible. So in Australia that would be visits to needle and syringe programs as one example, to get injecting equipment for steroids. You can be almost certain that that's just a fraction of what's actually going on out there. And all the evidence we have, at least in Australia suggests that anabolic steroid use is increasing in prevalence and it's gone from something that used to be the purview of just athletes through to professional weightlifters to now those only being a minority. It's very much an aesthetics driven thing.Laura: So tell us what we know about who Muscle Dysmorphic Disorder impacts. You've alluded to that it's mostly cis men. But can you elaborate any further on that?Scott: Sure. So itt's mostly cis men because cis men are the largest pool who would want to be muscular. But you see certain subpopulations of men who are more vulnerable. Gay men are more vulnerable to muscle dysmorphia and to using anabolic steroids because of the heightened appearance pressures in that space. Younger men. So it does tend to be something that has its onset in younger years similar to anorexia.Laura: Sorry, I was gonna ask you, we know kind of what age do boys start becoming vulnerable? Because we know in anorexia it can be as young as like eight or nine sometimes, and that age is getting younger and younger.Scott: Yeah. And you see the same thing in muscle dysmorphia. So the first vulnerability factors can appear there. Studies have been done with action figurines and you have young boys asked which one do they prefer more? And they're able to, to, they have their preferences in line with what you'd expect, and they'll expect a preference for their own bodies to look certain ways, as you'd expect, given media messaging.So the vulnerability factors are there. In terms of muscle dysmorphia on setting tends to take quite a while. You'd be familiar. It's not the case that you hear a couple of messages, you get a mean comment about your appearance, and then suddenly you have it . It's years of internalizing and a bunch of factors that come along, and then it might strike in your teens or your early adulthood.And we see that in muscle dysmorphia too. Steroids often come into the piece a little later, so early adulthood to mid, and it's because they're expensive and they're hard to access.Laura: Yeah. You need to be kind of savvy also. Yeah. I can imagine kids who have figured out the whole cryptocurrency thing. I'm sure that they, you know, would get in there if they could, if they had the means. So you're saying gay men are more at risk. What, are there any other sort of subpopulations that you know, you're particularly worried about?Scott: Men who are in sports for which body weight or some aesthetic element around body weight is a key part. So not uncommon to have guys with muscle dysmorphia say that a lot of some of these thoughts came about because they had to weigh in for their sports. Maybe they were, they were boxes or fighters, something like that. So it just primed them to be in the space of being anxious about the number on the scale and how their fitness was progressing. Things like that.Laura: Do we know anything about racialized groups and, and who might be most at risk?Scott: There is some evidence though, it's not great in terms of its quality as of yet, that folks in predominantly white countries who are not white themselves may be at greater risk for both muscle dysmorphia and steroid use. Data we produced in Australia that was specific to gay bisexual men of, of various races suggested for example, that, you know, if you were an Asian gay man in Australia, that you might be more likely to use anabolic steroids and to succumb to muscle dysmorphia.And in talking with Asian gay men in interviews in qualitative research, part of it is because, you know, if you are an Asian gay man in Australia, then you are often stereotyped as being more feminine. You're not able to be part of the masc for masc subculture, which is still quite dominant and exclusionary and anabolic steroids are a way to compensate for those other aspects of your appearance that are diminishing your masculine capital. You can see something similar happen for men who are shorter. If you go to spaces online where men are complaining about being short to other men, they'll often see, just hit the gym, just get jacked. It's a way to compensate for those other elements that are not helping you to embody that masculine archetypal, conventionally attractive male.Laura: Hmm. Okay. A while back, you talked about pressures from the media. And that has, you know historically, particularly in anorexia research, been held up as a huge antecedent, I suppose, to eating disorder precipitation, but now there's this whole other layer of social media on top of things. How does, and I'm thinking about the fact that young people in particular hang out on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and maybe less Facebook these days I don't know. I don't go on Facebook. So what do we know about the influence that social media is having on aesthetic and appearance based pressures?Scott: Social media makes people more vulnerable to eating disorders, including muscle dysmorphia. And if you are vulnerable, it can make the transition to having one of these disorders shorter. It can intensify it. And I think it can also assist in maintaining them for longer as well. So the reason why media messaging can be so problematic and damaging in terms of vulnerability for and experiencing eating disorders is because you end up with all these idealized reference points and what social media does is expands that limitlessly so that when you're on your feed and TikTok is delivering videos for you to consume, all of the reference points you are getting from content that is popular and influential and that people are responding to. It's so divorced from reality that you've got a greater pool of people comparing and feeling poorly about themselves and now investing in the general necessity of looking better.Laura: So this is an area that you've been researching. Am I right?Scott: Yeah, that's right.Laura: Can you tell us a little bit more about, you know, specific studies or experiments that you've done, that you're excited to share a bit more about?Scott: So, you know, studies of social media, including of TikTok, generally what they will do is have an experiment and you'll show people some images or videos from social media platforms that you're worried about and see how people respond. Or you have people answer a survey question that will amount to, how often do you use, say, TikTok, Instagram, and you correlate that with some measure like how you feel about your body.And that's all well and fine. But where the real explanatory power is, in my mind, is in big data and getting access into exactly what people are seeing and viewing so you can map their social media experience. So what we've been able to do is to take a group of people with eating disorders and a group of people who, we call it our healthy controls, that don't have eating disorders. And see their entire TikTok algorithm from the day they installed it to the day we requested the data. And that means we can track exactly every video that's being delivered to them, the comments, the likes, all with their consent, I'll just say, of course not being done without that. And we can see what is happening.What it means is we can show things like if you are someone with an eating disorder, your TikTok algorithm that decides what videos you see every time you log in is 50% more likely to deliver you an appearance oriented video for each and every video that you see compared to someone without an eating disorder.And the amount of videos that these folks are seeing, the average is around 2000 a month. So if you are someone in weekly therapy for an eating disorder, If you're a clinician and you have someone who you'reLaura: Oh my God. I'm just sitting here thinking about like some of my clients. I'm like,Scott: That's 500 videos on average that they are seeing between each session. And when we run studies to compliment these on new phones with fresh TikTok accounts that we manage, it only takes three minutes to get an appearance oriented video.You get 17 in the first 20 minutes. So it's not that people are seeking this content out. It happens anyway. And when we look at the rate of liking that folks with eating disorders have for this content versus folks without. It's not that the folks with eating disorders are looking for this content, they're liking it at the same rate because what's algorithm is doing is not taking what you like to determine what you want to see. They're interested in engagement, whether it's Facebook or, or Instagram or TikTok. It's what keeps you looking and what keeps you looking isn't just what makes you happy. It's what makes you anxious or what makes you upset. It's what makes you mad. And if you are someone who is really unhappy or worried about the way you look, it knows which videos will make you look more. And that's exactly what happens. And you can see over time how the algorithm becomes more echo chambery as people get sucked into the vortex of this content.Laura: I think the scariest part for me both as someone who works with eating disorders and as a parent, like my child is obviously not on social media right now, but will be one day I'm sure, is the fact that they know, like the social media companies know exactly what they're doing because wasn't it a couple of years ago, but there was a whistleblower at meta. Who said who, who said, we have all of this information that shows that our algorithms are making body image and eating disorders worse, and yet they're not doing anything about it.Scott: Yeah. And then they downplayed and discredited their own data generated by the star researchers they themselves hired which is absurd. And the reason that they don't wanna do anything about it is because the..Laura: It's capitalism.Sorry, go. Scott: No, you, you're exactly right. The money is made from engagement. And I think the faint that the social media companies do is to imply that what they're doing is giving people what they want, community connectedness. And when it comes to advertising that they're connecting people with the products that they want to buy. And through being able to like things, you can get the sense that, oh, the social media companies are just sitting back and people are doing what they want in there.They're getting what they want, but certainly, the controls that you think you have over what your algorithm, especially on TikTok is sending you is less. And it's about engagement. And engagement doesn't care how you feel, if it's positive or negative, it just cares that you spent the time. Whatever it takes to get you to do more time is what it is going to send you. It's worth noting also that when you look at the proportion of appearance honored content that your algorithm sends you, so how big this echo chamber is, that correlates strongly with the eating disorder symptoms. So the more your algorithm becomes, you know, polluted by appearance, honored content, the worse the eating disorder becomes in tandem. And why wouldn't it?Laura: I have a question, and you might not be able to answer this. One of my clients uses the term recovery porn in eating disorder recovery, which are all of these images of usually women who claim to be in recovery or recovered. Have you looked at the impact that these recovery accounts have on eating disorder recovery?Scott: I've not looked at that specifically, but I'm well aware of the phenomenon your client has described. And unfortunately, lots of social media phenomena and hashtags, like for example eating disorder recovery, body positivity is another good example.Laura: Yeah.Scott: They are not clear paragons, they're not at all as clearly useful as we would like them to be if someone went searching for them. You go looking for ed recovery, you might find an account that is extremely thoughtful in the way that that content is presented right alongside content that is clearly not being very helpful. Just like with body positivity, you might get someone who hearkens back to the, the fat acceptance movement, who's really preaching the fighting the good flight right next to someone who is perhaps well-meaning, but still thin, skinny, and they're pinching a tiny little roll of fat and going body positivity, which as I can tell from your reaction is missing the point.Laura: Yeah. Okay. Maybe, maybe something for a future research agenda then, Scott.Scott: Absolutely. It's a great suggestion.Laura: I'm curious to, because, and I think what it comes, what it comes back to you articulated it there really well. I think something that I tried to unpack with my clients, you know, is thinking about, okay, well, is this image, they might have the message on point, right? But if there's an image that is still highly focused on aesthetics, it's highly focused on their body and, you know, showing off their body in a particular way, then that really completely undermines the message that they might have been sending with the best of intention.So just a little interesting aside, but you know, you've talked about how social media, you know, there might be some benefits to social media. I think there's definitely some work that has shown that coming out of the center of appearance research, but it's murkier and less clearly defined than, than maybe we would like to think.So you painted this really dark picture of social media and, and how it contributes to muscle dysmorphic disorder. So I'm wondering what we can do both from maybe a clinical perspective, or maybe a public health perspective as well as maybe a parenting perspective to protect our kids from internalizing these messages because they're gonna be exposed to them. Right. We know that for sure. So how do we buffer the impact, both maybe at the broader public health level, because this is a public health issue clearly, but also maybe in our own parenting in our own homes. Scott: Yeah. And okay, you're absolutely right. You cannot start from a base of let's not use social media altogether. That's, that's the arena. That's where youth culture is driven in, telling young people not to use it is just not practical. So they're going to use it. Encouraging your child to be a critical consumer of media generally, including on social media, is really useful.I think if you feel confident enough to talk about it, explaining to them that what they see is delivered to them by algorithms can be useful. That's something we're exploring in our own research where we want young people to have a better understanding that what they're seeing in their feed is not a one-to-one reflection of reality to the world as it actually is.And that's beyond the, you know, manipulation of photos and self portrayals that go on, but like the algorithm just feeding you with whatever activates your emotions. Part of that is this tool we're developing that can visualize your algorithm for you so that you can know and compare it to others just how biased it's become. And this can be for clinicians too, because if you have a client walk in the door, you need to know if 70% of their feed is appearance oriented, which is not a number I picked out of thin air. That's an actual number from clients we had with anorexia nervosa. And then you can have a productive conversation with that person around, okay, your algorithm is not only not reflective of reality, it's doing you harm and this is how we can work to remediate it.Laura: I would definitely, like sign me up for that tool. I will test it for you. Whatever you need me to do.Scott: Lovely.Laura: So, so yeah, having conversations that, you know, that there's obviously, the images themselves have been highly altered, stylized, potentially photoshopped, all kinds of different things. But then there's this whole machinery and infrastructure behind that feeding you more and more and more of these idealized images.Scott: Yeah, that's it. And you know, when social media, the way we use it, a lot of the time, like a lot of the time when people are using TikTok, people's guards are down. It's incidental. It's minutes in bed when you first wake up, it's bed when you might be trying to go to sleep. It's when you're on a bus, it's when you're bored, it's when you're tired.It's not active consumption of content. And before you know it, you can have scrolled through or mindlessly watched tens and tens of videos that have appearance oriented content and, just like with how people think that advertising isn't working on them, but the reason that so much money is pumped into it is because it does have cumulative accumulative impacts on, on purchasing decisions. The same thing happens with social media, so it's about getting people to recognize that and to try to minimize what's happening in those spaces because it all adds up.Laura: You know, you said kind of towards the top of the interview that people who are deep in their eating disorder, whether it's anorexia, whether it's muscle dysmorphic disorder, bulimia, orthorexia, whatever form that takes, they are, you know, the least clear in what's going on, right? They're the least easily able to see what's going on. They are definitely aware that there's a problem, but they might not be able to identify exactly what that is. So, with that in mind, I'm wondering for, for parents particularly of teen boys, tweens and teens, it sounds like are both vulnerable and kind of heading into adolescence.If a parent notices more protein powders coming into the house, more you know, concerns about lean protein and less carbohydrates on the plate and more time working out or conversations about being fit, about being healthy, and they're, they're noticing that, that's becoming increasingly rigid and perfectionistic. How might a parent approach this, do you think? Scott: It's a very common question that has never had an answer come easy to me, as I'm sure it wouldn't for many parents because teenage boys are notoriously challenging to talk to and get to open up to, especially about these,Laura: Yeah, but you're a psychologist so you ,Scott: So I'm obliged to have an answer and I I have you. So I think the way we approach folks who we think have muscle dysmorphia, but who are perhaps reluctant to talk about it, is to emphasize those parts of their training and their dieting that aren't working for them. We don't say, “Is it making you sad or anxious?” and, “what's not working for you?” because often whether it's a young boy, a teen, a young adult, they're just thinking about progress. They wanna progress. It's, I want my lifts to get stronger, my body to get better, etc. And the things that we think of as the symptoms of the disorder, the things that we're worried about, they're not worried about them per se. They're worried about their progress. And it's those things on the side that are making it hard, right? So we frame it as, okay. What's, what's getting in the way of you being able to train and diet and be like this and, and that maybe it's, ah, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't train today. I had to go and do this.It's like, oh, okay. So like, how did it make you feel? It's like, you can try to get them to see that it's the rigidity that is being more unhelpful than helpful. We deliberately keep it above the level of feelings for a while until that is more approachable. Often with our young clients, we'll just pitch it as, look we don't want to change your training and your dieting. We're not gonna tell you not to go to the gym. We just want you to be in a space where you can get back to making the progress that you wanna make. Then you've got your foot in the door and you go from thereLaura: You're getting them on side. You're telling them I'm on your team. Yeah.Scott: Yeah. Because whilst you can say the term body image to most young women and they intuitively know what you're thinking about, if I try to say, “are you worried about your body image?” to a young man, even if I know they are, it's so super clear as day, a lot of the time they'll say no.Laura: Yeah,Scott: Like straight up, they'll say no to you. Because it's just not the language that they speakLaura: Yeah, yeah. But if you can talk to them in terms of gains and what's getting in the way of theirScott: What's getting in the way? You know, you're not talking about feelings per se. That's just the best way I can describe it. It's a very tactful and challenging spot to be in, I think.Laura: Yeah. I mean, my hope is that I never have to broach this conversation with my kid, but fuck parenting is hard, man.Scott: Yeah, I certainly empathize.Laura: And I really hope you don't say CBT right now, but what do we know about treatment? What is available to help young people, older people, whoever is impacted by muscle dysmorphia to help them recover?Scott: The evidence-based for effective treatment for muscle dysmorphia is extremely limited. It's nowhere near what we have for the other eating disorders. There is nothing in the way of an RCT or anything like that. I have a PhD student now who is running the first manualised treatment for muscle dysmorphia, so we'll see how that turns out.Generally speaking, the approaches that work for eating disorders will also work for muscle dysmorphia, in my opinion, because again, the core maintaining factors of the disorder and precipitating factors are very, very similar. And what has been encouraging as a first port of call, the major eating disorder charities that run helplines, so certainly the Butterfly Foundation in Australia perhaps BEAT over in the UK, they are increasingly cognizant of muscle dysmorphia and the helpline staff are better equipped to, to talk about it, which is perfect.Laura: I noticed the other day that there's even an NHS page, which, you know, you and I spoke a couple of years ago for Don't Salt My Game, and I'm pretty sure it didn't exist even then. So there is certainly more recognition and awareness, but it sounds like people are more equipped to have these conversations, certainly in the eating disorder space.I worry more about kind of general practice in terms of medicine because there's even and, and don't get, this is not GP bashing . We all know how much pressure GPs are under, but there is a lack of awareness even about more traditional eating disorders in that space. So yeah, I reckon BEAT would be probably the best first port of call there.But in terms of treatment, it sounds like we don't exactly know yet. Your sense is that probably some of the modalities that we use for other eating disorders are probably gonna be successful because of, you know, the same underlying maintaining and precipitating factors. But I guess we need to wait for your student to do their research before we have more clear answers on that.Scott: Yeah. But even then for the really convincing answer that yes, you can confidently send someone for this treatment and there's a great chance they get better years and years away from that. But what I find promising is in talking to eating disorder clinicians, in training them when it comes to muscle dysmorphia, it's not a case of, oh, how am I gonna do this?It's, oh wow. There's all the parallels are all there, which is great because it means that the tools are there, it's just a matter of education both on the part of the clinician and on on people and young men so that they know they can go and seek help and that help will be there to meet them.Laura: Absolutely. And I just wanna go back to the TikTok algorithm thing, which is super disturbing to me, but, but just to kind of close out, I wonder, you know, from your perspective as a researcher, what do we need to be doing both in terms of a research agenda, but maybe also like a public health policy agenda in terms of tackling some of these, like really problematic systems, I suppose, that young people are up against. I don't know if that question makes sense, but like, where do we go from here? What do we do with this?Scott: No, I've thought about this. There's the organizations I'm working with in Singapore, we've been talking about that at length and the broader conversation that needs to be had moving back from TikTok to algorithms and data generally is we need greater oversight and control of how our data is used to deliver us content of all kinds.Because people cannot bat an eyelid when they think of, alright, I wanna clean my house and I'm on Instagram and I got an ad for a cleaning product, cool. And in your ideal world, advertising connects you seamlessly to the things that can make your life easier. What you don't want is for an algorithm to see and know that a young person has been looking at a lot of videos that are around weight loss and now a targeted ad comes up for a weight loss supplement, cause that is how that data gets used also.And we need tools, I think like the one we're developing so that people can see what their algorithms are sending that. You should know. You should know if your algorithm is sending you three times more toxic masculinity content than someone else, if it's sending you more eating disorder content, if it's sending you more plastic surgery content.Because the first step in a battle is knowing what your algorithms are sending to you. And this issue only becomes more important because let's say you or I wanted to find out something factual, we go to Google.Gen Z uses things like TikTok for search. 40% of Gen Z prefers to use TikTok than Google for search, which means you are down the rabbit hole of the algorithm from day dot.So you need to know, but of course that information's never released to you. So it's pushing back against the opaqueness of the data that we provide and how that data is used to send us content because it's not in our, in the service of our health and connectedness and community. Again, it's in the service of, of money, and, and engagement. So I think that's the broader conversation, right? The data collected from us is not benign.Laura: Oh, absolutely. Wow. All right, Scott, on that cherry note, um, at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been really excited about lately. Um, So something they've been snacking on, either literally or metaphorically. Do you have something picked out?Scott: I do. So in Singapore, my favorite breakfast to have is kaya toast with some rather runny under soft boiled eggs with soy sauce and white pepper. It's a very common breakfast here, and I love it. It's so, so satisfying. I had it this morning. I'll have it again tomorrow.Laura: Sorry. What is the kind of toast did you say?Scott: It's called Kaya Toast. So it's like thick cuts of toast with butter that's called kaya butter. And it's slightly sweet. I think it has a more fun and complex flavour than regular butter. And you can dip that in eggs that are loaded up with white pepper and soy sauce.Laura: Got it.Scott: I love it.Laura: Oh, it sounds like they have a really amazing food culture over there. Like I've heard from people that they have like, you know, lots of different kinds of street food and stuff like that, so yeah. That sounds awesome. Mine is also a food so it's, I mean, it's only February at the time of recording, but like all the Easter stuff is now showing up in the shops and so I demolished a pack of like Doisy and Dam, which is like a brand of chocolate over here, mini eggs the other day. And they were so good. Like, I don't know if you get mini eggs in Australia, they're like solid chocolate eggs with like a candy kind of coating shell around them. And they're like all different kind of pastel kind of colors. Like yellow and pink and green and like eastery kind of spring colors.Scott: It's possible we do, I can't recall 'em off the top of my head,Laura: You're gonna tell me like you don't like chocolate or something.Scott: No, no, no. I love chocolate I'm not sillyLaura: So I think you would like, I know you would recognise them. So maybe you don't have them. You don't have them over there. All right, Scott, it's been really great to chat to you again. Can you let everybody know where they can find out more about you, your research group, or any of your publications? I will link to the study, the TikTok studies if they're published yet? Scott: They're in the process of being, so the best place to follow along with the research my team does, including the TikTok work, is at my Twitter. It's @Scott1Griffiths. Or just search Google. Scott Griffiths, Scott Griffiths Body Image Research or something like that, and it will come up. That's the easiest way.Laura: I'll link to it so that it saves people the minefield of Googling stuff.Scott: Yeah.Laura: But yeah, so that's the best place to follow along on your Twitter and get updates about your research. I can't wait to read that. Well say. I can't wait to read it. I'm really depressed after talking to you about the state of social media.I mean, I was already bummed out about it, but this has just solidified that for me. So thank you for that. But otherwise, it was really great to talk to you and it's obviously really essential and important research that you're doing. So thank you for taking the time to share it with us.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. 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Today I'm talking to Dr. Hillary McBride. Hillary is a psychologist, a researcher, and podcaster, with expertise that includes working with trauma and trauma therapies, and embodiment. She's the author of two books - ‘Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image: Learning to Love Ourselves as We Are', and ‘The Wisdom of Your Body: Finding Wholeness, Healing and Connection through Embodied Living'. She is on the teaching faculty at the University of British Columbia and hosts the podcast Other People's Problems. Today, we're speaking about embodiment, healing from trauma and loads of other really cool things!Find out more about Hillary's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Order Hillary's books here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Hillary: We could look at how convenient it is to assume that we are an image and then try to control that image when it causes us to forfeit the information that might say, no, I don't wanna participate in the system, or yes, I am hungry and I wanna eat that food even if it means that my body is not gonna appear the way that so and so expects it to. That the information on the inside is costly to stay connected to in a culture that is asking us to forfeit it, in order to belong in this kind of flattened, disembodied, two-dimensional version of, of being an image.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome back to Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they are nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Hillary McBride. Hillary is a psychologist, a researcher, and a podcaster with expertise that includes working with trauma and trauma therapies and embodiment. She's the author of two books: ‘Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image: Learning to Love Ourselves as We Are', and that was published in 2017 and her latest book, ‘The Wisdom of Your Body: Finding Wholeness, Healing and Connection Through Embodied Living' came out in Fall 2021.Hillary is on the teaching faculty at the University of British Columbia, and she hosts the podcast, Other People's Problems. Today I'm talking to Hillary about embodiment, healing from trauma, and loads of other really cool things. So stay tuned.Before we get to our conversation with Hillary, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely reader and listener supported. We don't have sponsors or do adverts or anything like that. I don't make money from affiliate links. I'm not trying to sell you anything you don't need. All I ask is that if you value the space and the community that we're building, then please consider becoming a paid subscriber. 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I'll drop the link to the group subscriptions in the show notes so you can check that out if you and some pals have been on the fence, then this is a great option and it's go time.And last thing if you enjoy this episode or any of the episodes in this season, then please head over to iTunes and drop five stars. And I see in my statistics that you're all listening on Apple Podcasts anyway, so while you're over there, I would really appreciate it if you could leave a review. I might even read some of them out on the show. It just really helps more people find these conversations and become part of the Can I Have Another Snack community.All right, team. Thank you so much for your support. Here's my conversation with Hillary McBride.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Hillary, I'd love it if you could start by telling us who or what you are nourishing right now.Hillary: Well, I am nourishing myself and my toddler, and I am so much more attuned to what that means because, I am breastfeeding and I am always ferociously hungry all the time, and there is something about nourishing and kind of the, the literal transmutation of all the food as it comes into my body, out of my body, into her body, that, uh, shows me how deeply connected those two are, both the nourishing and the being nourished.Laura: Yeah, I haven't thought about it in that way that, I like that word that you use transmutation, um, and also breastfeeding a toddler I can relate to that. And yeah, just having to be really in tune with yourself, but also to a toddler and their needs.Hillary: Yes,Laura: It could be a lot.Hillary: You know, it can be a lot. It's wonderful. And I feel so privileged to, through motherhood, see and experience that connection of how much my attunement and my self care to my body actually literally supports her to thrive and be well. And there's something about that, even just the way you pose the question that highlights for me, the, the interdependence between us as bodies that I think we sometimes forget when we're just mulling about our days, thinking of ourselves as individuals. There's actually this inherent connection between all of us as bodies, and I think parenthood really, really brings that right up close to your face.Laura: Mm, yeah. I think a lot about interdependence in parenting. You know, from the perspective that that capitalism keeps us so sort of separate from one another. And prioritizes independence and, you know, trying to parent under late stage capitalism without family and community around is so fucking hard. So really, really hard that, yeah, like it just really for me has hammered home how interdependent we are.Hillary: Uh-huh. Yeah. You said it. That's exactly it.Laura: So Hillary, this is somewhat related, but your area of expertise is in embodiment, and embodiment is a term I've noticed recently, it's kind of buzzy. I'm seeing it show up everywhere, but I'm wondering if you could tell us how you understand and define embodiment.Hillary: Yes, I would be so privileged. So there's a couple different ways of defining it, and I'll give you a couple different definitions and then I'll, I'll tell you what I think is salient about them, but I really like the Merleau-Ponty definition, which is that embodiment is the perceptual experience of engagement of the body in the world. Or another way of describing it is the lived experience of engaging in the world as a body.Laura: Hm.Hillary: What both of those definitions have in common is that there is both a felt sense, experiential kind of body, you know, as it's known and lived and encountered and understood and sensed by me and a sociopolitical, contextual, cultural piece.It is, you know, how is all of that shaped by the landscape that I'm in, by the people that I'm in, by the stories of power and privilege that I encounter? So there's a dialectic between what felt sense is like in and through me, and then the world that I'm in. You know, it's really interesting to look at it through that lens as having both kind of this material, individual quality and a sociocultural and interpersonal quality, because I think it really breaks down the assumptions that we have, that our bodies are in a way, uniquely ours.We can have autonomy and agency over our bodies, but, but we also are in a world that is constantly saying things to us about what bodies are good and how to be, and how to shape movement and how to feed ourselves and what is desirable in terms of our appearance. And those things really get, you know, lodged inside of us in such a way that sometimes we forget that those stories come from culture and they feel like they're our own thoughts or our own identities.So I love thinking about embodiment as including these two pieces and in, in a way actually being the conversation between them.Laura: I love that, that kind of reciprocal relationship between our bodies and the, the context of our bodies. And I love the quote that you use in your book. I think it's, is it Teresa Silo? Is that how you,Hillary: ah-huh.Laura: Is that how you pronounce her name? Where you quote her as saying, or them as saying the body is not a thing we have, but an experience we are. And I always think there's kind of an irony in talking about and trying to define embodiment because as soon as we kind of put words to it, we're sort of, I don't know, what's the word that I'm looking for? Hillary: Like in an abstraction or we're losing something about the felt sense or the quality of it by trying to talk about it or think aboutLaura: Yeah, yeah. No, that's exactly it. We're turning it into this like, academic thing when it's really, like you've said, it's a felt sense, it's an experience, so I just wanted to highlight the sort of, the irony in us talking about embodiment.Hillary: Oh, I'm so glad that you said that because it reminds me of something else that I often say when I'm talking about embodiment, which is to say, you know, instead of me describing it, how about I tell you about, you know, that time 30 minutes ago or two hours ago, when you really knew that you needed a drink of water. And the quality of the sensation and your awareness of that sensation, and then your action to go meet that need to go get yourself a glass of water or not. And all of the stories around you that impacted why you knew what that sensation was like or didn't know and why you did something about it or not.It's like the, you know, sometimes because we get stuck in the academic definitions and we lose the felt sense quality, we actually understand embodiment when we come back to the, the sensory memory, the procedural memory, the qualitative nature of being a body, because that as much, you know, some of us have harder times accessing that, it may actually be a little bit more accessible to us than all of the, you know, the floral or abstracted language that we use to talk about this thing, which is kind of our aliveness and it as it's felt and sensed.Laura: And I love that word that you used, aliveness. And it makes me think of how I think and how I conceptualise embodiment in some of the work that I do around feeding and working with, with children and families is, you know, I think of embodiment a lot about a baby or a toddler who is just so, you know, they're all feeling, they're all in their body. There's no kind of like, they haven't quite internalised messages around shame and, you know, these social scripts that we pick up and, I think of animals as well as, you know, being really, embodied in a very positive way. Obviously, of course, we're all embodied, but you know, as you alluded to our experiences of embodiment can be, can lean more positively or more negatively depending on, again, some of the social scripts that we've been handed, the sociopolitical context that we find ourselves in, but I wondered if it would just, if it was helpful for some of the listeners to, to especially anyone who's parent or been around children or animals to, you know, connect with that idea that, you know, we're born embodied and, and, and we have this really strong sense of, of positive embodiment when, especially when we're little. And then, you know, Niva Piran's research tells us that as we get closer to, um, particularly for girls, as we get closer to puberty, and we start acting on the body instead of being in, you know, acting from the body, that, yeah, that's where the, those ruptures in our embodiment begin.Hillary: Mm-hmm.Laura: I wonder if you could speak to maybe some of the other ways our experiences of embodiment are shaped both at the individual level, but also from that broader sociopolitical context that we've touched on.Hillary: Well, I think that the most obvious things that we could look at have to do with our isms around power, how power is distributed. So, which bodies are considered desirable, which bodies are forgotten socially, and again, that might seem kind of abstract until, until all of a sudden you're in a wheelchair and you realise that city planning didn't necessarily think about all the ways that people who use mobility aids need to get into buildings.That there's something that's communicated there about which bodies and how bodies move through space that's not really considered by those who have the, the most social power. So we think about like ableism and racism and sizeism, sexism and you know, there's just so many isms that are proliferated in our culture that we don't really even think about, especially if we benefit from them in some way.So there's that quality of it. Of course, there's the way that media and parents and peers are vessels for those messages about what is desirable. That's considered the tripartite model. But looking at these three different streams of influence that disseminate messages about ideal bodies, about good bodies, about what is valuable culturally.And whenever I think about the tripartite model, the, you know what's interesting about it if you were to see it visually, is it places you right, the individual at the centre of these streams of information coming at you, there is these arrows of media. You know, parents or caregivers and peers, colleagues, right? Your friends, they're pointing at you, but you are also in one of those categories, likely, if not more, for another person. And so we are handed this information and then we are handing it to each other. Just based on the ways that we use greetings and how we comment on other people's appearance and what we say about their eating and um, their feeding of themselves and their movement, and the kinds of things that we, we praise and the kinds of things that we are silent about or criticise.So there is this really interesting soup that we're in. But if we follow those arrows back from us to where they come from, we see structures around, you know, hierarchies of body that were created many millennia ago based on who was able to leave or control the body the best. Who is seen as actually having the ability to conquer or subdue the body in terms of its animal nature, it's sensory qualities, it's sensuality. In some ways it's mystery. And all of it, it seems, stems back to that, could this one group of people conquer their body better than someone else, and then the assumption or the conferring of power based on that, right? That this is somehow superior.Laura: Yeah, I think a lot about it in terms of, you know, the, the cultures of domination that we live in. But I think the way that you're expanding it, there is almost, you know, the, the genesis of all of this was domination over one group's own bodies before then that ripple effect goes out to dominate other bodies and animals and the natural world.Hillary: Yes, and I would argue that that might even come from before, that the domination of the body of the earth, the sense that the earth is a body in its own way. That is in a way kind of our original mother as a species. And the earth's body needs to be objectified and conquered, which teaches us to objectify and conquer our own bodies, and then consequently punish the people who can't do that as being kind of unruly or somehow lacking status or privilege or power.Laura: Wow. Okay. I wasn't expecting to go there, but we did. Hillary in, your second book, The Wisdom of Your Body, you talk about the ways that we learn to view our bodies as an image. You know, we use the term body image all the time, which when you think about it, is fundamentally objectifying, right?Hillary: Mm-hmm.Laura: I'm wondering if you can share, you know, how this happens. How do we come to view our bodies as objects separate from, from us and, what does this do to our experience of embodiment?Hillary: It is something so funny to think about, hey, when we start actually looking at the language, like body image has been used as shorthand for how we relate to our bodies, but we are not just images. We are not just in relationship with our appearance and we have so much more dimensionality to us than than what is visible to us, visible about us on the outside and how we perceive and relate to that.So my relationship to that term has evolved since, really because of my own journey through eating disorder recovery and feeling like I wanted to leave behind the two-dimensional way of relating to my body as an image and move inside into a kind of interiority of the body. And what's fascinating about the research about that is that it seems that that actually kind of inoculates us against eating disorders.You might think that, you know, not working on eating disorders as an issue would be missing a major construct in a cornerstone of the work. But it seems that there is something about leaving ourselves and seeing ourselves just as an image that is, as a, a kind of pathology in a way, and that there is a, a wholeness that is lacking in our relationship and experience of ourselves unless we include.All of the other qualities, the felt senses, the interoception, really what it's like to live and be us from the inside out. So when I think about body image, I often very closely think about objectification and self-objectification and the way that we learn to see ourselves from the outside.Seeing ourselves through the gaze of the other, but also, I think you could argue, especially if you're familiar with Foucault's work, like looking at the body through the gaze of those who have the power and those who are most interested in subduing and controlling and disciplining the body. But we learn to take the position of those who have the most power, those who could hurt us, those who could approve of us or judge us. And we begin to see ourselves and police our through their eyes, and it is through assuming the position of this external gaze that we lose or leave behind some of that other more subtle, nuanced information that can only be felt and lived through us and consequently actually might serve to disrupt some of those systems of power.We could look at how convenient it is to assume that we are an image and then try to control that image when it causes us to forfeit the information that might say, no, I don't wanna participate in the system, or yes, I am hungry and I wanna eat that food even if it means that my body is not gonna appear the way that so and so expects it to. That the information on the inside is costly to stay connected to in a culture that is asking us to forfeit it, in order to belong in this kind of flattened, disembodied, two-dimensional version of, of being an image.So there is something that I think that's really important here about recognising, again, what you brought up earlier of power and social control, and the way that even receiving ourselves as simply an image is a byproduct of a social context in which we are rewarded for being less of a body because we are often then more compliant. Laura: Yeah, there's a lot to think about there. I think have to like process that a little bit after we finish our call. I suppose what was coming up for me there is, you know, in the age of hyper information and social media and you know, when, when we're so bombarded with our own image, images of other people, that are often presented in these really like one-dimensional ways.Hillary: Mm.Laura: You know, it's so much easier to self objectifyHillary: Yes.Laura: Than it is to be positively embodied or embodied in any sense, really. I'm just curious, you know, how when you're swimming upstream like this, you know, what do you find to be helpful? Because I think, you know, cognitively we can all understand, wow, that's really messed up when you put it in those terms. But again, embodying something different is so much harder. So, you know, where can we even begin with that, do you think?Hillary: Yeah. Well, my discipline will betray me when I say this because, or I should say I will betray my discipline in a way when I say this, but we, you know, we are constantly in development. The idea that development is only something that happens in these critical and sensitive periods of our life is actually just, it's not true scientifically. And I understand why we do it culturally to say, you know, here's where there is so much that is happening. We need to be protective of people who are vulnerable because their systems are, are changing so much and it's setting up so much of the rest of their lives. But we will be in development, we will be experiencing developmental transitions for the rest of our lives, including death.Death is a developmental transition. When we look at Niva Piran's Developmental Theory of Embodiment, there is so much that we can borrow at different phases of the lifespan. And why I think that's hopeful is because it gives us a guide to the places that we can, we can. Intersect with interventions and support and resources and where we can direct our attention to support ourselves, to continue to reclaim some of the aspects of being a body that have been left behind.So that includes looking at the social domain. What are the places where I can experience the freedom to be in my body and to be understood in the challenges of being a body in the social climate? And where do I experience having social power? Right? Who? Who are the people who understand my lived experience and can validate the lived reality of oppression and marginalisation or, you know, can affirm the goodness of my body, even if the larger social narrative and dominant culture is either silent or oppressive to what my experience of my body is like. So there's the social power aspect, there's the mental, mental freedom aspect. You know, negotiating with some of the, the constructs that we carry inside, being critical about the thinking that we have and the places that we learned that thinking, assessing social discourse.Um, you know, the irony with this is, I had an eating disorder therapist for quite some time who said women with eating disorders are philosopher queens. And there are, you know, I am sure lots of places where that does not apply. But in my experience, and I think what she was trying to say to me was not that there was an absence of thought, but that I was really up in my mind.And if we can be curious about what is going on up in our minds, and if we can harness the criticism that is often turned towards our bodies and actually redirect it to the place that it's due, which is these really harmful social constructs and experiences and distributions of power, then the mechanism of being thoughtful and thinking critically does not have to disappear. It can just get redirected to the place that it deserves to be redirected. We can learn to see the social landscape for the problems and the toxicity that it has and build something new instead of directing that energy towards our bodies, thinking our bodies were ever a problem.And then lastly, of course, the physical freedom piece. If we create experiences where we encounter being in a body and can notice that that is pleasurable and is good and we can work on building attunement towards ourselves, I think that that inoculates us against the pervasive image culture. These are all different ways that we bring our attention back into creating experiences both in ourselves and between us and others that make it hospitable to be in our bodies. And help us remember what we knew right from the beginning in our earliest phases of development, which is that our body is full of communication. Our body is us. Our body can be trusted, our body is wise. Our body knows the way. Our body deserves to be safe and is actually ultimately, I think, interested in creating safety for all of us.Laura: I love that. And again, so many threads that we could, we could pull on there, but I loved especially what you, what you were saying about, well, there were two, two pieces that, that really stood out for me. I think one of which was just this idea of where we are so quick to criticise and tear ourselves down. Yeah. How can we externalise that? How can we turn that towards these oppressive systems that exist outside of our bodies that are making us feel a particular way about our bodies? And then the second piece, you said so elegantly, but I kind of was coming back to this idea of community and finding safety in people who can, um, other people who share similar lived experiences to us, who can affirm our experiences, who can show solidarity with us, who can hold us and, and say, you know, there is nothing wrong with your body. There is nothing wrong with the way that you show up in the world. It's everything else outside of of us that's messed up. and yeah, just, just be in community with one, one another. Kind of almost going full circle back to what we talked about at the very beginning, sort of thinking about interdependence and, and how we all kind of fit together in the sort of wider human tapestry,Hillary: Yes. Yes, exactly.Laura: And I mentioned to you off mic, a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are parents or have children in their lives, and I know you're a parent yourself, and I wonder from your perspective, what do you think are the most important things that adults can do to support kids' sense of positive embodiment?You know, we've talked a lot about at the sort of collective level, and there's a lot that needs to change there, but I'm wondering if you have any nuggets for parents, you know, any considerations or anything that they can do to help their kids maintain a sense of being in their bodies, a sense of their bodies as their homes as this place of safety.Hillary: Well, there's a few things that come to mind, and I'm hoping that that means that even if all of them don't feel accessible, then hopefully one, one does for the parents out there. So I think a really important thing to do is to affirm how they are already listen. So when a kid says, “I'm hungry”, you can say, “Wow, you're really listening to your body. Thank you so much for telling me”. You know, that doesn't necessarily mean that we do whatever they want because we live in families and we have limitations, and we have schedules, and we have all sorts of things that we need to fit in and negotiate. But simply saying, “I'm so glad you're listening. Thank you for telling me”. I think what that does is it protects, protects the knowing even if we have to set a boundary and say, you know, “It's gonna be a little while until we can have a snack because we're actually driving, we don't have anything in the car right now. But you know you're hungry and you're doing such a good job. Listening to that and telling me”. What we don't want to have happen is to signal in any way to children that they have to disqualify their bodily knowing to stay in connection with us because that's often what happens in terms of an attachment framework, right? Children are so sensitive to what their caregivers need in order for them to be considered pleasing and when children perceive their caregiver as being disappointed or scared or ashamed or something because of the information they're giving them, they're gonna learn very, very quickly not to give them that information. And it's not a far jump from, I'm not gonna give that information, to I'm suppressing that information, to I don't notice it at all.So simply being able to say to your children, “You do know you're tired. I believe you, that you're hungry. I am so glad you're listening. Ooh. What does it feel like in your tummy when you're hungry? How do you know? What is it like? Is it like a growling?” You know? Right. Even just being in the experience of it with them to thicken their awareness of it is a great way to preserve that and let them know that them paying attention to their bodies will not cut them off from connection to you.Laura: So the other day, so we send Avery, my almost three year old, with a packed lunch to his daycare setting. And the other day he came home and he said to us, “I ate one carrot”. And he was like, so proud of eating this carrot. And of course, I never praise based on, you know, what he has or hasn't eaten and I'm, you know, maintain this very food neutral approach. So I was really surprised by this and I did a little bit of interrogating it and, you know, I've actually had to go and speak to daycare because they are, you know, pressuring him to eat. Which really crosses so many boundaries for me in terms of not respecting his autonomy. Not respecting his voice, you know, he had said no and he was told, well, you just have to eat one carrot. And then obviously this was reinforced with praise before he came home and said, “I ate one carrot”, you know, I had to sit with why this really played on my mind. And it's, you know, for the reasons that you're describing that overriding someone's no, overriding their body autonomy can become a sort of slippery slope to them. You know, not, not being able to recognise their own needs and suppressing their needs and or performing, you know, for adult's praise or adult's validation, and that's so much bigger than respecting their hunger and fullness cues. That's just one tiny part of this work, I think. So yeah, that was just an example that came to mind.Hillary: Thank you so much for sharing that because I think it, you know, where it takes me is into the complexity that parents often bring to the conversation of, you know, there are times I have to override their cues. Like they're saying, no, I don't wanna have my diaper changed and they've got a poopy diaper. You're like, this would actually be negligent if I didn't, like you actually can't make that call right now, but how important it is to say, you know, “I really hear your no, I really hear that you don't want me to change your diaper. I'm so glad you're telling me there's something about that that doesn't feel good for you. You can always, always tell me, and I'm always going to listen to you. And there are some situations where even if something is uncomfortable or hard for you, I have to help you do it because it is for your safety, because it cares for your body, and I want for you to know that even though I'm gonna be caring for your body in this way, I still believe that you don't want me to, and I'm hearing you, and I'm so glad you're telling me”.Because I think what often happens is if we have to, we are in those situations where we do have to override the no that the parenting kind of reaction that we might naturally wanna have is, I'm gonna shut down your, no, then I'm gonna tell you, you shouldn't say no because it's actually kind of uncomfortable for me as a parent to say to you. Yes, you're allowed to disagree with me, but I'm still gonna do what I'm doing. Right? That's a complicated thing to feel and we can feel like it would just be easier for them to not say anything because it's too uncomfortable for us. So being able to say, you can keep telling me no. You can tell me just how much you don't like it. I believe you. I believe you. Tell me what it is as I'm changing your diaper. What is it about it that you really don't like? Like keeping them connected to themselves and keeping them connected to you while you're also prioritising their health and safety? I think it is possible to do it all.Laura: Yeah, no, and thank you for adding that nuance of, you know, there are times where, especially around care tasks, where we can validate what they're expressing about how strongly they don't want to do something and how that feels really uncomfortable or really annoying or, you know, just not what they want to be doing in that moment.And we have to hold a boundary because it's really important for hygiene or, you know, for their safety or, or whatever it is. And so there's definitely that, that piece of it. And you know, something that I've been thinking about with, with Avery, is, you know, in terms of his body boundaries and helping him assert that.Well, there's two things actually. We're practicing saying things like, “I'm the boss of my body”, which I know is gonna backfire at some point when he, you know, when it comes to washing his hair or getting in the bath or something like that. But yeah, just reminding him that, you know, he is in charge of what crosses that body boundary.And another thing that I've come across lately, I don't know if you've discovered this song yet, but it's called The Boundary Song.Hillary: Ooh, I haven't, I'm gonna have to look it up.Laura: Yeah, it's, um, it's called the Boundary Song. I'll link to it. I think it's Hopscotch is like the YouTube video, but it's basically the words, the lyrics are basically, please stop. I don't like that. I'm feeling uncomfortable. I need more space. And then itHillary: Uh, Yeah.Laura: Not around me. Don't take it personally. It's just a boundary. That's a boundary. And my, not even three year old has like memorised this song and, you know, we're trying to practice like different context in which you might say something like that. And again, it could all go horribly wrong and backfire, but, you know, I think what I'm connecting this back to is just, you know, giving them the tools to express their voice to help solidify their body autonomy, to solidify their body boundaries.And, that feels like a really salient piece around maintaining that positive experience of embodiment that connection to their bodies. Not letting their body boundaries be violated, you know, with the caveat that sometimes we have to do that in a caring way, for hygiene and whatever else.So anyway, I went off on a bit of a monologue there. I'm not really sure what my point was, do you wanna bring it back, Hillary?Hillary: I love the place that we're in, in the conversation, which is looking at both how we protect in a few different ways, right? Because there is a way of protecting that is ‘I'm gonna honour your boundary because you said no, I'm gonna stop'. And there's also a kind of protecting, which, you know, like you said, around care practices and just the nuance and complexity of that, and I think it's important that we're making a space where we can talk about how those fit intentionally with each other, what they bring up in us as adults. And also then subsequently what we weren't given as kids.Because many of the times when these things are hard for us as parents, it's because they're new, because we're having to chart a new path and there is something kind of prophetic and transformational in being in the space that's uncomfortable and foreign. So I'm just appreciating, holding the complexity here.I think the last thing that I'll wanna say around embodiment in children is around creating experiences for free play, for being silly, for jumping, for, you know, unrestricted movement, for experiencing sensation and wide ranges of sensation like the, the developmental literature says that the more we encounter in a sensory capacity, the more ways that we learn to have mastery and agency in our bodies, the more autonomy, the more fullness, the more goodness we encounter in our bodies.So a wide range of activities, movement, spaces getting dirty, getting loud, being silly, playing, coordinated movements, right? Even being able to master a task because we practice something over and over and over again and get good at it, but not at the exclusion of free and unrestricted play, like just as many body experiences we can have.I think that that, you know, that's something that serves us well in our lives and so maybe that's a good piece of advice for parents who are really committed to having their kids be in figure skating and they do a lot of figure skating and over and over and over and over again. Like yes, there might be a sense of, um, mastery. But what about the spaces where there is novel movement or what about the spaces where there is unrestricted kind of free unobserved movement? Or maybe for parents who are really good at letting their kids be wild and free and unrestricted, where are the spaces where kids are learning a task and can feel competence in and through their bodies.And so just thinking about the spectrum and trying to create range, I think that that's, that's really important. It takes a little bit of thought on our part, but I think it goes a really long way.Laura: Yeah. I really appreciate that addition. And yeah, I've been thinking about these kids that I see around, they're always with their dad. I think it's their dad, at least I hope it's their dad. And they must be about, I don't know, like 9 and maybe 11, somewhere around there. And I fondly referred to dad as aggressive sports dad,Hillary: Oh, okay. Yes. I know the type. Okay.Laura: He's like, I see them like at the pool. I see them at the tennis court. I see them at the park. And the dad is like super militantly, like focused on like teaching them skills around sports, like, he's clearly really, really passionate about sports, but you can just see the kids like kind of, uh,Hillary: Mm-hmm.Laura: At how restrained and controlled and, um, kind of like meticulous they're being asked to be. And obviously I'm kind of projecting here like, you know, or using conjecture to make assumptions here, but it does feel like they just wanna run around and climb a tree or like jump.Hillary: Yes. Right, right.Laura: But yeah, we all know an aggressive sports dad. But Hillary, I'm really conscious of your time and I just have a couple quick questions I wanna ask you to wrap up. So the first is, I would love it if you could share a practice with us that you personally like or that you found in your work as a therapist that helps people with that sense of embodiment, with that sense of my body as my home.Hillary: Yeah, Yeah. Two really, really quickly. Uh, one, putting my hands on my body and talking to myself, greeting myself in the morning, in the evening, saying I'm so glad to be with you. I wanna care for you. Can you keep talking to me? Right. Whatever it is that we wanna say to build relationship with our bodily selves, like honouring my body as a subject, not just an object. And then the other one is dancing. I just love having music on and moving my body in a way that really helps me discharge excess energy or stress from the day. For anyone who's familiar with trauma work, we know that moving, shaking, activation in our major muscle groups, like that's actually a way to release energy that is lingering from stressful or demanding events.So there's that side of it, but then there's also the freedom and the pleasure and the sense of enjoyment and you know, how it invites me into self-expression and connection and a sense of yeah, just enjoying being a body. So touching my own body and talking to myself and dancing.Laura: Oh, I love both of those things, and they're definitely things that I try and, yeah, check in with as well. My last sort of serious interview question for you is who or what is nourishing you right now?Hillary: Mm. You know, just this week I had some really, really important conversations with my partner and he really listened to me and really tended to me, and there was something about feeling unshakable support and emotional attunement that felt nourishing to me on such a soul level, that I have to think of the relational. Again, that's my new kind of my therapist disposition and my discipline there. But I feel so nourished by deep and rich, attuned connection. It helps me feel seen and known and loved and safe and, um, nourished.Laura: I really love that. That's so special. I'm so glad that you have that.Hillary: Thank you. Me too.Laura: Okay, so just a fun question to wrap up. So, at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they're snacking on. So it can be a literal snack, it can be a podcast, a movie, a show, whatever you're into at the moment. Is there something fun you'd like to share with us?Hillary: Ugh. You know what? I'm having a real cake moment in my life right now. I think. I don't know what it is. Yes, I know.Laura: I thought For a second you were using cake as a euphemism, and I was a bit confused, but then I realised you meant actual cake. Okay.Hillary: Cake. Actual cake. I just had so many years where I really missed out and so we've been making up excuses for reasons to get a cake. So, um, you know, we're just having a lot of cake around here and I love it so much.I'm like having breakfast cake and after dinner cake and sometimes cake with lunch and just really, really enjoying all sorts of different kinds and qualities, and no grocery store cheap cake is beneath me, but I'm also, I like some of the fancy ones, so I'm just trying, trying cake.Laura: Oh, I love it. Breakfast cake.Hillary: Yes,Laura: Genius. That's a stroke of genius. Uh, real quick, I'll share mine. So I think yeah, this is really connected to what we have been talking about today, which is that I've recently taken Avery to toddler dance class, like a toddler ballet class, and I am super conscious of how toxic dance spaces can be in general, but this is a very cute, very safe space where they can just move their bodies in whatever way they like. And you know, I've taken him to a few different sort of dance space classes and things like that, and he really hasn't connected to it. But this class in particular, he was just kind of in his element, twirling and jumping and leaping. And he, you know, he asked if he could put on like the tutu skirt and he was just having the best time. So, um, super special to see that.Hillary: Yes, it sounds like it. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. That just brought me so much joy knowing about that and picturing him there.Laura: it's very, very, sweet. Hillary, could you please share with everyone how they can find out more about you and your work and where they can find you?Hillary: Yeah. You can find me online at hillarylmcbride.com,, on social media, Hillary Lianna McBride on Instagram or Hillary L McBride on Twitter, or maybe it's the other way around, I can never remember. Have a look at those names. Some combination of those names will get you somewhere to me and my work.And, then I've got books, wherever books are sold and podcasts, you can always search my name in the search tool in wherever you listen to podcasts. And both the podcasts that I have produced and the ones I've been on will show up.Laura: And we will link to all your social media and where to find your books and your podcast in the show notes so that, yeah, there won't be any confusion over where to find you.Hillary: Thank you.Laura: Hillary, it was so great to talk to you. I love your book, The Wisdom of Your Body. And I really recommend it to all my clients that I'm working with. So thank you so much for spending some time with us today.Hillary: It was my pleasure. I loved every minute of our conversation.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. 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Joining me on the CIHAS pod this week is writer and poet, Amy Key. Amy has a new book coming out in April called Arrangements in Blue, which explores living in the absence of romantic love. She also wrote this incredible essay for the Vittles Substack called In Praise of Cravings which I was a little skeptical of at first, as you'll hear us talk about, but which ended up transforming the way I thought about cravings. Amy subverts the idea that we should pathologise our cravings and invites us to explore how food can be a gateway to satisfying non-food cravings as well. Amy also talks really openly about her own relationship with food and how she experienced an eating disorder as a teen, and how part of that healing now is trying on the word fat and noticing how that feels. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Amy's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Pre-order Amy's book here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Amy: And you're sort of doing all this mental gymnastics that, um, for me just became a huge waste of intellectual effort. And I thought to myself, I'm just not prepared give food that bit of my brain anymore and that much time.I'd rather focus it on making delicious food that I enjoy to eat, that I enjoy preparing, that I want to share with other people. And also I'm not prepared to be hungry because if I am hungry, I'm thinking about food all the time. And I, you know, I find that I don't really, don't really have like much snacking type habits because I'm satisfied in a way that I don't think I'd previously been. And it was, that was really liberating for me. Just saying, ah, I'm gonna let, just let all that bit of my brain go, cuz let you know, life's too short for me to devote all this brain power to it and I've got other things I could be doing.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to another episode of the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas. I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to the writer and poet Amy Key.Amy wrote this incredible essay for the Vittles Substack called In Praise of Cravings, and as you'll hear us talk about, when I first read the essay, I was kind of skeptical about it, but there was this moment in it that transformed the way that I thought about what Amy was saying, and now I can't get the idea of trusting cravings and leaning into cravings out of my head.Amy subverts the idea that we should pathologise our cravings and invites us to explore how food can be a gateway to satisfying non-food cravings as well. So like how creating someone's favourite dish can help us feel connected to someone we miss, and someone who we're longing. Amy also talks really openly about her own relationship with food and how she experienced an eating disorder as a teen, and how part of that healing now is trying on the word fat and noticing how that feels.So we'll get to Amy in just a minute, but first of all, a couple of notes. This is your last shout for my Raising Embodied Eater's Workshop on the 21st of February. It's a 90 minute workshop where we're going to be reflecting on your own relationship with food and your body growing up and thinking about how you want to parent your kids around food and around their bodies.We'll talk about how food rules pressure restriction and trying to micromanage how much and what our kids eat can backfire and harm the relationship with food, and it could also make picky and fussy eating worse. We'll talk about how to support kids innate hunger and fullness cues with flexible structure. We'll think about how to let go of the pressure to feed kids perfectly. We'll talk a lot about embodiment and supporting body autonomy, and also think about ways to respond to food and body shaming comments from family and friends, plus loads and loads more. I'm actually not sure I'm gonna fit it all in. We'll figure it out and there will be some time in the end to ask questions too. So if we don't get to cover absolutely everything we can, you know, answer it in the q and a at the end. And if that sounds good to you, the link to sign up is in the show notes and transcript. Um, it's also on my Instagram bio, so if you're, I don't know, on Instagram, then click click through the link in the bio. It's 15 pounds and the recording will be available for a week after to catch up. You'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters download, which is like a 10 page PDF with loads of helpful things that you can share with family and friends. And, um, like I said, there will be some time at the end to answer your questions, so all the links are in the notes, in the transcript and in my Instagram bio.And just before we get to Amy, I wanted to ask a quick favour. If you've been enjoying these episodes, then please think about leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. It lets people who are on the fence about listening know that it's worth their time. Just a few sentences would really mean a lot and help us grow the Can I Have Another Snack family. So thank you if you do that. I super appreciate it. It's a really low-key, we low-key way that you can support the podcast and the newsletter without becoming a paid subscriber, if that's not something that's available to you right now.All right, team, I think you're gonna really love this episode. So let's get to today's guest, poet, and writer Amy Key.MAIN EPISODELaura: Amy, I'd love it if you could share with us who or what you're nourishing right now.Amy: So, I am nourishing my garden by planting all the bulbs that I did not manage to plant before Christmas, because I had a really bad case of flu. And one of the things that makes me so happy in the spring is seeing all the spring bulbs come up, and I hate, hate, hate winter, so it's kind of like a little present to myself that says the future has hope and bright colours in it.Um, so I've been doing that and also I've moved some of the plants that were not flourishing in the places I'd originally placed them. I've moved them into the communal spaces of the garden and I really hope that they'll take root there. So that's what I'm nourishing right now.Laura: Oh, I love that. First of all, I'm slightly relieved that I'm not the only person who is only just thinking in January about my bulbs. I literally overwintered my tomatoes this weekend and we're like almost at the end of January. SoAmy: That's amazing. Are they still doing their business?Laura: Yeah. So I discovered that. So I live in a flat in London. My balcony for whatever reason, I think because it's almost like an internal balcony. So like only one side is exposed and it has like a little microclimate going on, which I think is because I'm losing all the heat through my patio door, but it's like five degrees warmer than like what the weather app is telling me the weather is, right.So, um, yeah, I've got like eight strawberry plants. They're not producing anything, but like, they were like runners from last year and I've got a couple of tomato plants that I think I can salvage. I mean, they're looking a bit ropey, but I think I can salvage. But you know what, the best thing that happened to me at the weekend was I found a little like potted plant that I got from M&S last year that was full of daffodils. And I like tied a knot in the dead daffodils, threw them in a Sainsbury's bag. And then this past weekend I saw the little, the little bulbs sprouting so I've replanted those. Happy days,Amy: I love it.Laura: And I've got a whole bunch of bulbs as well. I spent way too much money at the Garden Center, but that's, that's, this is how we get our kicks. Right.Amy: I love that idea that things are just like waiting under the surface to surprise you. We don't know where they're gonna come up.Laura: And this is such a perfect segue because you alluded well, you didn't allude, you outright said , I hate winter. And that you're waiting for that hope, that promise that that spring offers of a new life and activity. And, and I think that's something that you also alluded to in your essay that you wrote for Vittles called In Praise of Cravings.Amy: Yes,Laura: I wonder if you could tell us a bit about that essay and really what you were trying to communicate through idea of cravings.Amy: Yeah. So, um, maybe I'll talk a little bit about where it came from. So I was at a family member's house and there were little prompts posted about their flat on cupboards and on the fridge that interrupted the person before they opened the fridge door or opened the cupboard and said, stop, think about it. Are you depressed? Are you thirsty? Are you angry? Are you bored? And I found, I found these prompts so depressing because they were, you know, basically trying to interrupt this desire from a kind of moral point of view, you know, that the tone of it felt a bit cruel to me. And I thought, oh, I wish those things weren't there.I wish those things, I wish that everyone could just be in their kitchen. You know, might, they might wanna snack, they might want to eat a stick of celery. They might want to open the cupboards and think about something they'd really like to make for dinner. And I feel like if I was always interrupted in this way, it would make me feel very bad about myself.So I, that's why I wanted to write about cravings from the perspective of thinking about it in like much more colourful, pleasurable ways, you know that you can follow an impulse and you can trust your body to tell you what you might need in that moment, and that that should be free of any judgment. Laura: Yeah. Oh, I can imagine the scene like it sounds like this person maybe has a trickier, complicated relationship with food and they're, they're sending these, well, I guess we're, we're sort of instructed right by diet culture that our, our cravings, our appetite, our hunger is unreliable. It's untrustworthy. We shouldn't ever indulge it, God forbid that we trust our bodies. Right? And that they needed this. Yeah this physical reminder or like this physical manifestation of the food police on their cupboards to interrupt, that yeah, their desires, their, their need for pleasure, which, which is exactly how diet culture functions, but it's, I can imagine that that was really confronting.Amy: Yeah, it was, and I think, because it's taken me a long time to break down some of the shame I feel in eating and like, because my body is a fat body, um, you know, there's always that sense that I should be denying myself food nonstop, let alone the food that I would like to eat. Or that, you know, there's an assumption that if you have a fat body, you are greedy, um, or that you are eating the wrong things in the wrong way at the wrong time. And that made me really sad because actually food is such an exciting, like place for expression, for creativity and for like friendship and communication. And just downright pleasure, you know, like taste sensations, , all of those things. So all that was all kind of in my mind and it was almost, I felt almost like, oh God, I just wanna write a manifesto, if you like. That is just about being in search of, of what it is I want and, and owning that.Laura: Hmm. I love that idea and this sense of kind of conviction really comes through in the essay of like, I own my appetite, I own my desires, I own my cravings. And that it felt really self assured and confident. But from what you were saying there, it sounds like that wasn't necessarily always the case in your relationship with food, and I wondered if you'd be comfortable sharing a little bit more about your relationship with food was like maybe growing up and, and later into to adulthood.Amy: Yeah, I think like, as was the case for like lots of women, probably of my generation who were you know, children and teenagers in the eighties and nineties, there was always dieting in the house. There was always this sense of like, uh, having a body that should be taken in hand because it got out of control, um, and that, you know, those cycles of that happening all the time. And, you know, I just had like a quite average body. And then as I got into my later teens I developed an eating disorder, you know, ate as little as I could, became very thin and was rewarded for, for being thin. I was rewarded with attention, you know, concerned attention, and, um, I was rewarded by the sense of being able to wear clothes that were much smaller and having access to all of that, that too. But that period of my life didn't last very long, and I remember as I was like a young adult in, you know, in my early teens and sort of settling back into what was probably just my normal body, which wasn't a thin body, um, feeling like I'd somehow like lost this battle of wills and I'd somehow not mastered the art of having a body that was a respectable body in society, um, if that makes sense. And it, it's taken me a really, really long time to try and, unlearn that, like to try and let go of this goal that I probably had at some point, which was, oh, I know that I can be thin, so I'm gonna try and return to that teenage body again. And it'll probably happen at some point in the future if I just, you know, work, work hard enough. And it was, it was through really making sure that I engaged with content showed fat people, um, and you know, like the body positivity movement for, for all its faults has in some ways been really, really helpful for me. So, replacing the negative images with really positive ones and just making sure that a, I broaden my own scope of what is beautiful, for example, what is good and what is, um, you know, what wellness should mean has really helped me, I think, become a lot more accepting of where my, you know, where my body is and helped me break free of a cycle, I guess, of denial, of contrition of you know, self admonishment that just made me unhappy, but also just was terribly draining on the brain because I found that I filled up so much of my brain with ideas about what I was going to eat, that I sort of lost any enjoyment in eating. So the thing that's changed for me in terms of like how I eat is that previously, and I think for much of my life, cause I wasn't trusting what I felt like I wanted, what I desired, I would be like mentally trying to like problem solve something else that might fix that desire, but it could never, never be fixed.You know, it might be eating several different things as, and then realising that no, no, I'm still hungry. So like you go to the fridge and you get this one thing, and you're like, if I'd just eaten a slice of toast with some butter on it, that probably would've completely fixed that craving that I had.But instead, I ate four raspberries, a handful of nuts, a square of cheese, and it just gets very, very elaborate. And then, and you're sort of doing all this mental gymnastics that, um, for me just became a huge waste of intellectual effort. And I thought to myself, I'm just not prepared give food that bit of my brain anymore and that much time.I'd rather focus it on making delicious food that I enjoy to eat, that I enjoy preparing, that I want to share with other people. And also I'm not prepared to be hungry because if I am hungry, I'm thinking about food all the time. And I, you know, I find that I don't really, don't really have like much snacking type habits because I'm satisfied in a way that I don't think I'd previously been. And it was, that was really liberating for me. Just saying, ah, I'm gonna let, just let all that bit of my brain go, cuz let you know, life's too short for me to devote all this brain power to it and I've got other things I could be doing.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds as though letting go of that anxiety and fear and concern about food and, and not letting it take up as much space in your brain open things up for you is thatAmy: Oh yeah, definitely, I think so. Yeah, you know, it makes me want to say, for example, write, write about food. It makes me want to grow food, or talk to people about it without that sense of it being a problem that I need to resolve.Laura: Yeah.Amy: I do have a fat body and some people think that that's not okay. But I am grateful to live in the body that I live in and I haven't got a perfect reaction to the way in which fatness is perceived like far from it, but I have certainly become a lot more relaxed about other people's opinions about how my own body should look because cuz it's none of their business and it's certainly none of their business what I eat.Laura: Oh, I'm so excited by everything that you've just said there that, um, I'm trying to figure out where I want to dig deeper, and I think one thing that that stood out for me, and it's something that I kind of bump up against quite a lot in, in my clinical work and just through conversations with people who've read my books, is the, the idea that you alluded to where you've attained a thin body. Now in your case it was through, um, an illness and for other people it's through oftentimes disordered eating and the, the head space that is devoted to food being sort of 90% of your brain sometimes. And then being afforded some of the privilege that that confers, right, the thin privilege and then losing that privilege through our bodies changing as bodies are want to do. Right.Amy: Yeah.Laura: And, and then it sounds as though there was this kind of, um, enduring desire to return to that, to maybe return to that privilege. And I just wondered if you could speak, speak to, to that and, and how, you know, a lot of people talk about grieving within ideal or, you know, just having to navigate letting go of what we're told that weAmy: I think it's so hard cuz it's also for me, it's bound up in, in ageing a little bit as well. So I'm 44 now and like the point at which I was thin was like maybe two years between like 17 and 19. And I think it's somehow how you tell yourself that that was the one true you and like how you are supposed to be, even though rationally, I know that it took so much, um, sort of powers of delusion and control for me to be that way. It was never gonna be the same again. It's not something that I know, you know, I know that it's not something that I could just practically maintain, even if I attained it temporarily, and part of me thought, oh God, I don't wanna go through that again.You know, this idea of, because people do, I was thinking about this the other day about, there was a point in my life where some people close to me got very thin and I watched them be praised more than, I'd seen them be praised for anything else in their life. And that really disturbed me because, yeah I found it really disturbing and I also thought, I know that that's bullshit, so I'm not prepared to. I'm not prepared to sort of give that power, because that's one thing I can control. I can say I am not gonna reward people for losing weight. Like, it, it's tricky cuz you want, you want to be supportive of people who want their bodies to be particular ways and, and, I dunno what I'm trying to say here, but. Everyone should be able to be in control of what goes on in their body basically. That's what I think. Um, but I think disengaging from diet talk and disengaging from saying to people things like, oh, you've lost weight, or That is flattering, or talking about myself in derogatory ways has been. It's like a practice that I just need to keep on with because I think if I lose that I could very easily fall into a kind of self-loathing trap again, and I would never be thin again. But I would feel a lot worse about myself. Like it wouldn't matter how many diets I did, I would never be that thin again. I might, you know, and so it, yeah, to me, it feels like, you know, like a black hole that would just take all of my energy and give very little back. Laura: Yeah, and I think you spoke there too, the idea of, of body autonomy, and that's such an important piece of this conversation. I think that, you know, I would never want any individual who was pursuing weight loss, intentional weight loss to feel shamed about that. But it also, we don't exist in, in a vacuum and you know, I think slightly delusional if we think that it's entirely under our own volition this desire to be thinAmy: Oh yeah,Laura: And we're swimming through diet culture, which of course, as we know, and you spoke to there as well, is the nexus of ableism, ageism, patriarchy. White supremacy. You know, it's, it's just kind of a an easily identifiable way of naming all of these ways that we are oppressed.Amy: No, I think it's so interesting cause I was reflecting on how I was talking to somebody about how they wanted to lose weight ahead of a special occasion and they said, oh, you know, I just wanna look nice in the photos. And if you are fat, it's quite hard to hear that and think, ah, Do I mess up photos because I haven't become thin?Uh, you know, and, and I'm somehow unacceptable photographically to the world. But if I were thin, then um, I would look nice and it would be recorded that I once in my life look nice as a thin person in a photograph. And when you start interrogating that more, I think you've go gods this is a load of nonsense that it, but it's so hard to unlearn because it's just everywhere. And I think, yeah, like you say, if you are, you know, I'm lucky because I'm cisgendered, I'm white woman. You know, I've got blonde hair and blue eyes, some, some western beauty ideals. But I am ageing and I am fat. And I am single and all of those things society does not accept or think, you know, they think you, well, you should sort yourself out because you are almost like wasting your body on the world if, if you are gonna allow yourself to be in this way. And that's the way it could feel sometimes.Laura: That's such an interesting idea that you just presented this sense of, of wasting your body.Amy: Yeah. Like, why be fat when you could be better looking? Like, it feels like that that's, that's the kind of choice that, that, um, people think you're making, like this choice to be less attractive. Like why are you being less attractive for me when you could be more attractive to me , if that makes makes senseLaura: Hmm mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I think it's just, it speaks to how fucked up our cultural values are or where we put our values as a society on aesthetics, on appearance, on this outward socially constructed idea of beauty or, yeah, which bodies, which people hold value and, and which don't. And it's, yeah, like when you start to kind of tug at that a little bit, it, it become, it unravels pretty quickly. I don't know how we can defend these ideas.Amy: I don't, I remember like having a conversation with a friend where I was talking about how when my, uh, one of my grandparents died, I was given a thousand pounds, like, which was the money that they'd left in their will, and I spent some of it on a laser hair removal machine, and I remember saying to my friend, , oh yeah you know, I can't cope with having both hairy legs and being fat and you know,Laura: Hmm.Amy: Together, like that's, that's even, that's even worse. Like I can only deal with the kind of emotional armour I have to put up with on one thing without there being another bit of my body that other, that people are gonna be objectionable to, which is kind of cowardly if me, in a way that I felt I needed to do that, but it was almost like, I can't deal with having more things that people will find undesirable about me.Laura: No, I've definitely heard and felt, you know, similarly that, you know, well, I guess it speaks to how we can only, there's only so much that we can deal with as individuals, even when we're kind of well versed in, you know, even when we hold deeply feminist values and we are, you know, committed to body liberation, but there's only so much that we can do on our own there's only so much armour that we can, can continue to, to put up. And so I think for a number of folks, when we come to fat positivity, fat liberation, there is this sense that, okay, I can be fat. And I have to be beautiful. And I have to be young, and I have to be, I have to perform health. I have to, um, you know, in some other way exonerate myself.Amy: Yeah, I've certainly heard a lot about that. You know, like people saying, you know, uh, I'll choose a salad when I'm eating, with some people who feel like inhibited by what other people might think is okay for them to, I mean, I will eat what I want and I'm lucky, I think because the people who surround me, you know, wouldn't be pay that any attention whatsoever.And it must feel so horrible to feel like you've gotta perform this idea of like the perfect fat person who exercising all the time and proving all the time that they eat healthily and all of this kind of stuff. But if you reject those notions of, of healthy ness as we are sold it in like a capitalist society, which is very different really from I think what we would like to embrace as an idea of health then I think we would all be a lot better off.Laura: Mm. But I think what I was kind of searching for before and, and struggling to find was, okay say we accept that bodies change and our body weight tends to track in or trend in one direction, right? And, I think, you know, holding onto these other, you know, whether it's about body hair or beauty or fashion or, um, you know, the fucking cosmetic industrial complex, like what it fundamentally boils down to is safety and keeping ourselves safe in a world that does not value our existence.Amy: Yeah. And that's really tough, isn't it? Particularly I think when you look at how health, healthcare seems to be orientating around, I mean, has for a long time, I guess, but orientating around like this idea that some people deserve to be treated and some don't. I've just realised it's tricky for me to talk about, cause I work in healthcare. Um, I feel like basically if fat phobia becomes, I mean, it's hugely prevalent anyway, but if it also becomes sort of state legislated as an unacceptable practice through laws and guidance and procedures and policies that are enacted through work, through healthcare education and so on. That's, it's just gonna make the lives of fat people so much worse. And it certainly won't make anyone thinner. Laura: Yeah.Amy: you know, if we as a country are serious about mental wellbeing, then we can't be going down that road.Laura: Yeah. I think what you're speaking to is this sort of neoliberal idea of personal responsibility and, and how we are all, You know, it's our duty as good citizens to control and restrict our bodies and to, you know, it's our job, it's our responsibility to stay thin for the good of the country and, you know, this is what is expected of us.Amy: Yeah, so that we are more productive and that we cost the state less and all of this, all of this business.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. something I was thinking about, well, I have, I guess, a confession to make that. When I first started reading your essay, when it got delivered to my inbox, I started reading it and I was really skeptical at first I was a little bit like, okay, where's this going? And then I'm gonna read this back to you. I read the line, “As a fat woman, I can feel inhibited talking about food because the gaze from which I imagine and know I'm perceived is one of greed as though I can't be trusted with my own appetites. Because of my fatness, I'm disallowed hunger. I refuse to be disallowed craving.” Sorry, I'm butchering your writing there. But that changed everything for me because, and I realised I was reflecting on it and I was like, up until that point, I assumed you were a thin person talking about your cravings.Amy: Oh, that's so interesting.Laura: And I think I'm doing this a disservice by assuming that they would've put some sort of like, I don't know. I'm not gonna like name tag anyone here, but you know, there was a very specific image that came to my mind of who you were until I read that line and I was so relieved because I felt like I could trust you. I felt like I could trust what you were saying.Amy: That's so interesting because I was really unsure about putting the fact that I'm fat in the piece. Um, for a couple of reasons. One, because. I'm still dealing with like the internalised shame of saying out loud to the people that I'm fat as though they haven't already noticed.It's almost like, you know, it's like, oh yeah of course other people are gonna see me as a fat person, but you know, sometimes in my head, that's not part of my self-image. I dunno what my self-image is, but, it's maybe my self-image isn't as embodied as it needs to be somehow. Um, so every time I say I'm fat, I'm like practicing becoming comfortable with that, owning it and, and using it as a term that is, is a neutral term. It's like a statement of fact. So like not in the space of, I know, and this is, you know, I'm supportive of this, but like trying to claim it as a word of pride. Just more in the space of this, this is a word we can use and it's okay. It's not gonna hurt me and I'm not gonna hurt myself by using it. So I wondered about that. And then I wondered also about writing about, you know, cravings and pleasure and colour and keeping things in this like very sort of sensory saturated, um, place, which is where the essay is predominantly. I wondered whether it had a place in there, but I realised that. It was so fundamental. The idea of having a fat body was so fundamental to almost like the, the cheekiness I felt in deciding to write about cravings and saying, I'm going to have fun writing about cravings. And I'm not going to be looking over my shoulder for people who think that I am wrong,Laura: yeah.Amy: So, um, it's really interesting that it's something that, it made the essay more persuasive for you. That's quite interesting for me to hear. Laura: It felt subversive. It felt like a fuck you, it felt like, I'm here and I'm owning this and you can't take this away from me. Um, and that, that really sealed, sealed the deal for me, and then I went back and reread it through that lens. And , I'm not trying to say like, you have to be fat to be trustworthy, or you have to be fat. Yeah, to take pleasure in food. But it just, it just shed a different light on it for me. So I was really, um, I think grateful to you for, for disclosing that because there was no picture of you. I didn't know what you looked like untilAmy: I mean, I feel like I totally get it because I, I often start out reading from a point of pure skepticism, particularly personal essays where, you know, say it's, um, somebody writing about, um, how I'm only 28 and I've just bought my first house. And then you get to the end and it's like, oh yeah, it's because you got 30 grand from your parents. And you got to live in granny's attic for two years. So this kind of disclosure is important for credibility of what people say. So I'm, I'm totally with you.Laura: Yeah. Well, there's something else that I wanted to ask you about. Sort of coming back to this essay. At the beginning you talked about food being exciting, being a place for creativity and connection, and I just wondered if you could. This is obviously what you explore in the essay and I'll link to it.It's a paywall piece, I believe, but it's like, if you don't have a subscription to this, what are you doing with your life? Honestly, But I just wondered if you could kind of Yeah. Try and sum up the feeling or feelings that you were connecting to and expressing through food. Subsequently through this essay.Amy: So I live alone. I think, I think I write about this in the essay a little bit. I live alone and I think when you live alone, you're often sort of encouraged. You are not encouraged, but there's a sort of sense that if you are just one person, food doesn't need to have a sense of occasion to. Like you, it's more functional and it's just me so I'll just get this, I'll just eat this ready meal or I don't bother. If it's just me, I'll just have beans on toast or, or whatever. I love, I love beansLaura: I was gonna say, that's a fine food. Don't knock me.Amy: food. And, and you know, I have a very elaborate beans on toast method of course that I cherish. I do want to challenge that and sort of work against it and think what is something that I can make for myself that really sort of vibrates with its meal just for one type intention and, you know, and things like that might be having a steak that is cooked just the way that I want it, that gets the flat all full of smoke and that I can eat with, um, you know, some oven chips and it feels very, very decadent. But I'm not impressing anyone. I'm just going for it on myself. And I think, giving yourself a, a, like a treat, a special treat, and paying attention to yourself as somebody who is deserving of, of pleasure, of decadence, of nourishment, um, even when nobody is looking or there's nobody to share it with.That that is something that's always behind how I think about food. And sometimes, you know, it, it might be like spending hours making a chicken stock and making sure that I've got some soup for myself during the week, or.Laura: Yeah.Amy: or standing over the sink eating a pear, uh, which is something that I write about in that essay and something that I did last night, I sliced it up and then there was just juice everywhere and I was just really enjoying this moment of being alone with my pear. But then there's also doing that for other people and the conversations that that might generate across a dinner table and how, for some reason, at a dinner table, I always feel at home and ready to get to know somebody better. That's really important for me and how I think about what food, the role food is playing in my life.Laura: I think there's something so interesting that I'd never really considered before about the narrative of what it means to, you know, the cooking for one. And yeah, how it's framed as being just really perfunctory and something that you have to do and, and that it's, there's no sense of occasion and the extension of that is that the only reason to kind of make, um, a song and dance about cooking, about preparing food, about sitting down to enjoy a meal is if you're doing it for someone else, but in, but very specifically in the context of a relationship, right? Like,Amy: Yeah, it's all bound in with like romantic love, I think. And it, I kind of write a little bit about this in, in my book. So I've got a book coming out in April called Arrangements in Blue, which explores living in the absence of romantic love.Laura: Hmm.Amy: And one of the things I kind of say in there is, you know, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that making a six pan five hour meal for one person is a radical act, but it kinda is cuz it's kind of saying, you are, you are, you are worth this effort.And if I didn't make any effort for the meals for which I prepare for myself, So many things would be off the menu for me. I'd be like living quite a grueling life. So, it's really important that I kind of push the boat out for myself basically.Laura: Yeah, yeah. No, I love, I love that idea a lot that, you know, in a, and I don't mean this in a like, Bubble bath self-care way, but in a, like, I am actually gonna invest in myself because I deserve the pleasure, the joy, the nourishment, um, the fulfillment that, that comes from not just the process and the act of cooking, but eating and enjoying this food as well.At the end of every episode, I ask my guests, Who or what is nourishing them? So what, what has been nourishing you in this season of, well, shit winter, January season, but also I am gearing up to, to publish a book and.Amy: Yeah, I feel very insecure. It's horrible. It's like I can't tell whether I'm waiting for something great to happen or waiting for something terrible to happen, but it's just this prolonged feeling of anticipation I'm not great with. So I think the, who's nourishing me, so my two cats, Minnie and Bam Bam, have been absolute stalwarts, always there for the scriptures and, you know, stupid faces. And. You know, just general demands on my attention, which is good distraction. My best pal Becky, who has been listening to me have every single neurotic thought that you can havepre publication and probably I should put a special mention in for my agent Ang who, um, has also had to deal with the kind of tremors of, uh, pre-publication. So they've, they've all been fantastic and I, I owe them a lot for their kindness and, and friendship.Laura: I'm glad that you have people caring for you during what is, I know a very, very anxious and yeah, I know that, that pre-publicationAmy: Yeah,Laura: Like black hole. It's a lot. Okay. And very, very last question is what are you snacking on at the moment? So, it can be anything from a literal snack that you are enjoying eating all the way through to something you're watching or reading or listening to. So what do you have for us?Amy: So, I finished reading a couple of weeks ago a book called Kick the Latch by Kathryn Scanlan and is so amazing. It's a kind of novel made out of conversations that, uh, Kathryn had with a horse trainer called Sonya. It sounds like a strange premise for a book, but it's like a, a jolt to the brain.Laura: Ooh, I need one of those.Amy: Yeah, it's really, really fantastic. It's published by Don BooksLaura: Okay. I will link to that in the show notes. I'm very intrigued by that. Um, okay. My thing is definitely not as lofty. So, I, this is an Instagram account that has kind of blown up recently. Uh, you might have come across it. So the person is Lisa Timmons, and she, I think, Or they're a comedian.And, they basically they make these reels where they do a voiceover of celebrities like Jennifer Aniston, Gwyneth Paltrow, like cooking in the kitchen, and then just like voiceover with like, I'm such a privileged fucking white lady and just that, it's just always so on point and like I was just watching one before we got on the call and it was basically, it was Gwyneth Paltrow chopping up some salad and like it probably had like, did not have enough calories to sustain a human being. And the voiceover was basically just like, you know, like, and uh, the idea here is to get as few calories as possible so that you have brittle fucking bones as you grow older.It's just like, yeah, that is what happens when you don't eat enough food. So that's my recommendation, Lisa Timmons Instagram. It's very funny if you, especially if you are navigating, unlearning and unsubscribing diet culture. I will link to that in the show notes. So you briefly mentioned you have a book coming out in April.You wanna tell us, um, how we can pre-order that and where people can find more of your work?Amy: So if you go onto the Penguin website, which I think is penguin.co uk, you can find my book Arrangements in Blue. It's published by Jonathan Cape and there were lots of pre-order links on there. And you can also follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Laura: We will make sure that the links are right there for anyone who wants to go and pre-order Amy's book. And I think you have some more of your writing on your website as well, which I'll link to. And your piece In Praise of Cravings, which we've talked a lot about. I'll link to that in the show notes.Amy, it was such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here, and I can't wait to read your new book.Amy: Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.OUTROLaura: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

*Content warning* - in this episode, we are talking about pregnancy loss and baby loss as well as experiences in the NICU and breastfeeding challenges. So if you're not in the headspace for that right now then please take care of yourself and do whatever you need to to look after yourself.In this episode, journalist, author and fellow Substacker Jennie Agg is joining me on the pod. Jennie has just published her first book, ‘Life, Almost: Miscarriage Misconceptions and a Search for Answers from the Brink of Motherhood' - an exceptional book which brings together her own experiences, along with expert interviews and reports on why we know so little about fertility and reproductive health. In our conversation, we focus on the erosion of trust that can happen in your body as a result of losing a pregnancy, and all the difficult emotions that can get stored in our bodies with nowhere to go to be held safely. We also talk a lot about body image and what has been healing for Jenny as she navigates a new relationship with her body post-partum. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Jennie's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Order Jennie's new book here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Jennie: And piece of that experience is it's, I remember, I mean, it's very difficult to not feel, I remember feeling very angry and very let down by my body. And it's very hard to, to reframe it. I think like I would, this is language that I used internally. It's not language I would use to somebody else or, you know, but you feel like your body has failed you. And I think it's very hard to reframe that as like you, it's very difficult to put a positive spin on that in any way, in the way that sometimes we're encouraged to you with things that are difficult, difficult experiences to do with our, our physical body. INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to another episode of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter? Today I'm talking to author and fellow Subtacker Jennie Agg, who has just written an exceptional book called ‘Life, Almost'.It weaves together Jennie's own experience with miscarriage and pregnancy loss with expert interviews and impeccable reporting on why we know so very little about fertility and reproductive health. In our conversation today, we're really focused on the erosion of trust that can happen in your body as a result of losing a pregnancy and all the difficult emotions that can get stored in our bodies with nowhere to go to be held safely.And this is in part because of how isolating the experience can be and how the healthcare system is not at all set up to adequately support people who experience baby loss either in the moment or going forward into a new pregnancy after loss. We also talk a lot about body image and what has been healing for Jennie as she navigates a new relationship with her body postpartum.I think it's a really lovely conversation and a really important one, but it goes with the content warning that we are talking about pregnancy loss and baby loss as well experiences in the NICU and breastfeeding challenges. So if you're not in the head space for this right now, then please take care of yourself and do whatever you need to to look after yourself.I know we've had a few authors promoting their books back to back recently. I promise that not all the guests this season will be promoting books. I think maybe we have one more. We will also be hearing from some clinicians and researchers later in the season. Just the way that it worked out with books coming out it ended up that some of those authors are appearing earlier in the season. But I also really wanted to support Jennie because she's been a really supportive cheerleader for me and my work. Some of you might already know that Jennie helps edit some of my essays on the newsletter, and her input is really valuable, and it means that there aren't as many spelling or grammatical mistakes on the copy that Jennie has edited.So even if trying to conceive or miscarriage aren't on your radar at the moment, I think this is a really important book for anyone who cares about reproductive rights and why we know so little about the health of women and folks with a uterus. It's not just about having a baby, but it's also connected to our autonomy and our collective body liberation.So again, that's why I wanted to share Jennie's work. It's really, really important and I hope you will check out the book.We'll get to Jennie in just a minute, but first I wanted to remind you that my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop is on Tuesday, the 21st of February. It's pancake day. Don't worry.It's not going to be just me giving you a bunch of useless tips and tricks. You know, that's not what I'm about. But we will explore your relationship with food a little bit and think about how you can support your kids to have a positive relationship with food and their body. I will give you some practical tools. Um, we will talk about developmental milestones and things like that, but my intention is really to help. You take the pressure off of feeding your kids and help you create a home that supports a healthy relationship to food and bodies. I've linked to the full description in the show notes. So you can check it out. It's 15 pounds, it will be on Zoom, and I'll have the recording available for a week after. So if you can't watch it live, you can watch it on playback. Plus you'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eater's Guide to share it with family, friends, childcare, schools, whoever is responsible for feeding your kids.And the last thing before we get to the episode. Just a quick reminder that Can I Have Another Snack is a reader supported publication. I'd love to bring you more deeply research pieces, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor, aka Jennie, and behind the scenes admin support, and a podcast editor as well.So if you are in a position to become a paid subscriber, then please consider it is five pounds or 50 pounds for the year, and if that's not accessible for you right now, you can email  hello@laurathomasphd.co uk, putting the word snacks in the subject line, and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. Please do not feel like you have to explain yourself or your situation. I trust that if you have the means to pay for a subscription and you value my work, then you will. And if you can't afford it right now, then um, maybe some point in the future you will be able to become a fully paid subscriber. But for now, just put snacks in the subject line and we'll hook you up with that comp subscription.All right, everyone. Here is my conversation with Jennie Agg.MAIN EPISODELaura: Jennie, can you start by telling us who or what you're nourishing right now?Jennie: Yeah, I can. So I'm Jennie. I'm a journalist and author, and I am nourishing myself, my husband, my two and a half year old Edward and three cats. And in nourishing, in the, the non-literal sense I am nourishing a writing career and specifically kind of branching out into writing books.Laura: I think you're being extremely modest right now, Jennie, I'm gonna be your, I'm gonna be your hype person for a sec.Jennie: Okay.Laura: So Jennie has a book as we're recording, Jennie's book is coming out in two weeks. Her first book. It's your first book, right?Jennie: Yeah, it's my first book. It's my first book.Laura: And. Yeah. By the time that everyone is listening to this, it will have just come out into the world. I wanna know how you, you know, where are we finding you? How are you feeling about it all? You've, you've been writing and putting your words out into the world for a long time. You've been writing very vulnerably for a long time, but does this feel different or are you just kind of like, oh, it's, it's more words going out into the world?Jennie: It definitely feels different. I mean, I never feel like cavalier or like comfortable with putting anything out, like even like sending out my newsletter, which I do every week. And before that, you know, I was writing a blog every week and I still, you know, pressing send still feels incredibly sort of panic inducing. But yeah, this does feel different. I mean it's a very personal book. And it feels, I guess it feels like the culmination as you said, I've been writing about pregnancy loss and my own experience with recurrent miscarriage and going on to have a baby. Like I've been writing about that for five years, six years now. Laura: I was thinking about this the other day, like way before you interviewed me for my first book, I'd come across your writing, maybe like in The Pool, RIP, or you know, some, something along those lines. And, and it was, it was one of the first pieces I'd ever read about miscarriage. And I remember being kind of like struck by it, obviously, because it's very personal and vulnerable, but also just thinking like, we don't, we don't talk about this.And so I remember, you know, even though babies weren't even on my radar at that point, thinking wow, what you're doing is really, really important work, and it feels like you've taken everything from the past, I dunno, five or six or however many years and you've put it into this new book.Jennie: Yeah. I mean that, and I guess that's what I've, I tried to do. I dunno if this is a really cliche thing to say but I, I wrote the book that I wanted to exist, like when I had my first miscarriage. And like, I wish I could say that the book answers all the questions that I had back then and that I still have now.And sometimes, like in kind of, delving into the, the science and interviewing various doctors and experts and historians about it, often the answer is we still don't know. And so the question is, why don't we know this? We need to do better really is the kind of thrust of the book really.And I think it's difficult for me to know exactly how far and how fast things have changed cuz I, you know, because I write about miscarriage and pregnancy loss and I am now kind of quite immersed in that world and community, it's difficult for me to know exactly how much things have actually changed.So when I had my first miscarriage in 2017 I just didn't, I didn't know anything about it. I really didn't think it was a thing that was going to happen to me. And oh, I should preface this by saying like, my background, I'm a health journalist, so there were lots of things that hadn't happened to me that I knew a little bit about.And okay, you never know exactly what something is like if you haven't been through it. But I really had no idea and I was really shocked when they'd kind of say, oh actually this is really common. And they sort of give you all these leaflets and they quote statistics at you and you're like, but hang on, they didn't tell me this when I went to my booking in appointment with the GP. It's not, you know, I've been reading the NHS website advice saying at eight, nine weeks, or, you know, look into what maternity leave you're entitled to start thinking about, I don't know, when you want to start your leave and you are kind of given things on your next scan and the 20 week scan, like right from the word go. And there's very much this presumption that your pregnancy will continue.Laura: And it's a kind of a linear, straightforward process. And you go from A to B to C.Jennie: Yeah, exactly. And I think miscarriage is kind of there in that it's, you are told don't eat this because there's a, you know, soft cheese and listeria and risk of miscarriage and, you know, there are lot, lots and lots of things that you are told to do or not to do.And perhaps miscarriage risk is mentioned, but it, rightly or wrongly, I think I felt going into that first pregnancy that miscarriage was something they kind of understood. They knew why it happened, and if you followed the rules would be okay. And I, you know, I did follow the rules. Then this, it kind of everything was sort of turned on its head really in that they go, oh, it's just one of those things. It happens sometimes. It happens quite a lot actually. And that was, it just kind of blew everything open for me, really. So I wrote about it for the newspaper where I worked at the time. And then as kind of things unfolded I went on to have two more miscarriages that same year, some medical tests which were inconclusive, and then I had another miscarriage after that. I mean, that's a very, that's a very condensed version. But I wrote about it. I wrote about it in the magazines and newspapers, and then also I, I started blog and yeah. And then I had a kind of period of time off from trying to conceive because it becomes very all consuming particularly when there, perhaps we'll come back to this, but when there were kind of no answers of what, why something has happened or whether it will happen again, or, you, it, it kind of takes over your life because you are, you are sort of looking for lots of things you can do yourself, whether that's your diet or your exercise or life, just sort of lifestyle things.Is it stress? Is it my job? Is it, you know, all those things. The answer to all of those is probably no but it, you kind of feel like it might be, it must be worth trying. Like, you know, you, you feel like you need to try absolutely everything. And actually that becomes quite a difficult way to live.So we kind of took quite a long period out from trying to conceive and when we did feel ready again I got pregnant for a fifth time in 2019. And this again, is a very condensed , a very condensed version. But I did, I did go on to have my son. Yeah. There was a question that, I dunno whether I've answer answered or not.Laura: Well I think I was just reflecting on sort of the, you know, how I first came across your work and, and just, it, it just felt so, I don't want this to sound like really belittling, but it felt really, really brave and courageous to put that out into the world. And, you know, I think I had read your account of your first miscarriage, and this kind of like realisation that, okay, well first of all, I didn't expect this to me, no expect this to happen to me, nobody prepared me for this to be even a possibility. And secondly, the, the recognition that we don't know what, you know, we, we know very little about why this happens to you. And then it sounds as though from there, when you had recurrent miscarriage, you know, you did the, I know that the NHS has this sort of like, what seems to me to be, what's the word that I'm looking for you? The, the rule notJennie: Oh, like it's com-, It's very arbitrary.Laura: the arbitrary, yes.Jennie: Yeah. It's a very arbitrary rule. And basically they will only if it's first trimester miscarriages, they'll only investigate for possible kind of other medical causes after three miscarriages which, like there are reasons for it, which I, which I understand. Although there have been, there have been calls recently, to adopt a slightly more kind of grade, I think it's called a kind of the graded, graded model of care. And so there would be some follow up after one miscarriage, some sort of preliminary tests after two, and then kind of what they do now after three.And like within all of that, the, the recommendation is that there would be kind of some sort of psychological support if people need it, which, and so far kind of the government has not, has not taken up this recommendation from lots of scientists and campaigning groups. Not a surprise. And I, and it's really tricky to talk about this at the moment and to kind of talk about how inadequate the provision is and the kind of support is for people going through miscarriage because, you know, health service is so stretched, so that's not a, you know, that's not a criticism of people working in hospitals or early pregnancy units or gps. It's a, you know, this is a moreLaura: systemicJennie: systemic like criticism. Yeah, I mean, there's so much we could talk about, like, I think, I can't remember the exact figure, but I tried to find out in the book how many early pregnancy units open seven days a week. Like open all hours basically. And I can't remember there, there aren't really any, there might be, it's single, like it's single figures.Laura: MmJennie: Like two or four or something that I could find in the whole of the UK, and so, some are only open like two hours Monday to Friday and it's like yeah.Laura: And I just like, this is the, the sort of feeling that I'm left with is that once something, you know, when you experience a miscarriage, or even if you're just unsure in those early weeks and months, if everything is okay, it's such a lonely, isolating experience because there's nowhere to go. And when we have, you know, when these institutions that are supposed to support us, care for us, look after us, you know, are, when they, when they're literally only open two hours a day, what message does that send about, you know, how much our experiences are valued. And I think that that kind of like, you know, the fact that we don't get any kind of investigation or even really support at all until there have been three recurrent first trimester miscarriages just goes to show again that, you know, that, that, that, that experience, like we're, we're sort of left to deal with it on our own.Jennie: Yeah. And ILaura: No one to help us kind of like yeah. Move through that.Jennie: No, it really invalidates it, I think, and it sort of sets up this hierarchy in that you're like, you are, you'd kind of, well, certainly how I felt was that, I really believed I was, that first time I really believed I was going to have a baby, and, you know, all those kind of things you think about and things you imagine and plan for that was all very real and was happening and was underway. And I was, you know, I'd been pregnant for nearly the first miscarriage happened just before the 12-week scan.So, you know, I'd been pregnant forLaura: Yeah.Jennie: a few months, but at that point like, I knew about it with all that that entails. And then suddenly it was not happening. And the reaction was kind of completely the opposite to how I was feeling in that the reaction was, this happens all the time. And then you are, you are kind of told that they're not gonna. they're not gonna ask you. They, I mean, I was really shocked that they didn't even ask me any questions. Kind of like, what had you been doing when it started? Or like, and that's, you know, that has its own problems in that then that you start to think it must be something I did. And in a way, that's why they don't ask those questions,Laura: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: but at the same time, you, the lack of interest or curiosity in why this happened to you when on paper there shouldn't have been any issue is really disorienting.And also then it, like you don't know how to frame your experience. So I was like, oh, right. So should I just be, should I just be okay? Should I be bouncing back from this quicker than I am? And I was, you know, it, it was, certainly that first time was very physically traumatic. And thenLaura: Yeah.Jennie: also it felt, it felt like a full on bereavement, really. So I would've struggled to say that in my real life at the time. Like, I would've felt that I shouldn't claim that, that that would, you know, and I think part of that comes from the fact that they don't, they don't and can't investigate until you've had more miscarriages. It's like, well then that's when it's, like quote unquote a proper issue. That's when you are allowed to feel all these complex feelings. And that's when, you know, you can lay claim to grief or a sort of Yeah. Any of those things. And I, it took, it really me, like, I guess what I'm saying is it really messed me up psychologically. And it makes, it kind of encourages you, I think, to push down what you are actually feeling and to kind of minimise your own grief and anger and shock and, and it's completely, it's completely the opposite of what actually now they're starting to learn through scientific studies about how people feel and how that experience affects people.You know, it's a significant proportion. I think it's about one in five people who have an early pregnancy loss. So that might be a first trimester miscarriage it might be ectopic pregnancy, experienced symptoms like PTSD. And it's, it's, and partners as well. Like it's not quite as, as high of proportion. It's like 1 in 12, I think a kind of secondary study to that study found, which is, is shocking. Like this is this huge, that's such a massive finding.Laura: And it sounds as though you know that, that that study was measuring people who met some sort of like clinical threshold for PTSD or PTSD,Jennie: yeah, yeah,Laura: And what about everybody else who is experiencing these really complex, really painful emotions and they just have to go to work the next day?Jennie: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, and they, I think from memory, that study does, does talk as well about how within that there are a lot of people who might not have met that clinical criteria for PTSD but there was, you know, anxiety and depression were really common. Which again, and you are just expected to pick up and, and start again and, you know, try to get pregnant again, which is a whole other. And this is really, I think a large part of my book and what I write in the book is my experience of pregnancy after loss and after miscarriages and how that is actually, it's a completely different experience. Pregnancy without that knowledge. And I, I still don't know that that's something we're really that familiar with. Like outside of very particular support communities.Laura: Yeah. How do you, I mean, there's so many things that my, my brain is going to here but there's, you know, sort of this question of, well, how do you sort of raise awareness of the fact that miscarriage can be a possibility without then creating a lot of fear and anxiety in people trying to conceive? And then also this, this big question of how do you support people through a pregnancy when either they've had, you know, pregnancy complications previously, or experienced baby loss or miscarriage or, you know, god forbid, like the loss of a, a young child, you know, what kind of support needs to be put into place?And, it sounds like. A, it's taking, it's taking science a really long time to catch up with the fact that people might have really difficult feelings and, and feel really ambivalent about, about going into a, another pregnancy. And yeah, the, even, even once we've kind of like identified that that's the case, what then is the support?Jennie: Yeah. What do we actually do about this? Yeah.Laura: Yeah. And the thing that I'm, I'm really curious to talk to you about, because it's kind of a thread that runs through this podcast and the newsletter, which is around, you know, when you experience something like this where you know your body doesn't sort of, it doesn't act in the way that we expect it to and want it to.And, and maybe, you know, we, we feel let down or betrayed by our bodies. And, and I can sort of speak from experience here in terms of like birth not going to, to plan and you know, early experiences with, with feeding that there's, there's a lot of, of grief and you know, that can be a very painful experience.And I'm just, I'm curious to know what, what your experiences were around body trust and maybe body image more broadly. You know, having gone through these recurrent miscarriages.Jennie: It's a really. What's the right word? It's a huge factor, I think. And piece of that experience is, I mean, it's very difficult to not feel, I remember feeling very angry and very let down by my body. And it's very hard to reframe it. I think like I would, this is language that I used internally. It's not language I would use to somebody else or, you know, but you feel like your body has failed you. And I think it's very hard to reframe that as like you, it's very difficult to put a positive spin on that in any way, in the way that sometimes we're encouraged to you with things that are difficult, difficult experiences to do with our physical body. So, you know, and it's, it's hard I think in the, you know, my body, I didn't look pregnant to the outside world, which, you know, for some people that will be their experience of, of pregnancy loss. You know, they will have announced their pregnancy and been visibly pregnant. And then that is, it's a whole other element of this.But for me, other people might not have seen it, but, you know, my body had, had changed and I was, and I think, I mean, maybe it's because it's, you are hyper aware, I think, in pregnancy particularly, or I certainly was in that first trimester with my first pregnancy. I mean, and then certainly in later pregnancies, you are hyper aware of every symptom or twinge that you have or kind of, and, and you feel different anyway, right?Like, you don't feel very well, you feel very tired. There's a lot going on. Like as in, it's a very, it's a very physical experience that first trimester, even though we kind of still have this convention of like not announcing a pregnancy then, so you kind of do all that in private,Laura: Mm-hmm.Jennie: andLaura: And then you emerge in the second trimester as this glowingJennie: Yeah, yeah. Like,Laura: The fantasy that we're sold, isn'tJennie: And it, it's very difficult, I think, and it, you've, what do I mean? I think I felt so resentful. I felt so resentful of, you know, what I perceived as kind of weight gain and changes to my body, which, you know, like I look back now and I think that was, my brain had definitely exaggerated the reality of that. And I think that's, that's complicated, isn't it? It's that sort of idea of like, oh, I, I feel, I feel fat today. It's like, what does that, what does that really mean? Particularly, you know, talking as somebody who is straight sized.Laura: It feels very familiar, I think what you're talking about. You know, that we, we often put all the difficult, raw emotions that we're experiencing, the grief, the trauma, the stress, the anxiety, all of it onto. , you know, we, we distill that because, because it feels really hard to say all of those things, the, the, you know, the resentment as well, which is such a great word.I think we, we reduce it down to a feeling of being fat when, you know, like you said, that's not, that's not a feeling. And our bodies are, are holding all of these complex feelings and emotions that that we sometimes find hard to, especially if, you know, we haven't announced our pregnancies to the world, or especially if we don't have a space to go to, like a therapist or, you know, someone to hold and contain that for us, we, we kinda store it in our bodies and it, and it shows up in these really unwelcome ways.I dunno if that speaks toJennie: Yeah, it, it, it really does. I think, cuz there, something I remember from certainly that first time and then also after subsequent pregnancy losses, the fear of being mistaken for pregnant was huge and if you think about it in a purely rational, like, logical way that it would make sense if somebody thought I, like, I had, you know, in some cases I had literally been pregnant two days previously. Like that was not, and yet somehow that was all really bound up with a sense of kind of, loss of control and kind of moral failing and, and it, you know, it, it, it's almost certainly informed by all the things we're told about postpartum bodies and how women should, you know, you're celebrated for looking pregnant up until the moment you give birth. And then you should, your body should like bear no trace of having carried and birthed a baby, like, you know, in that incredibly unrealistic way. So I'm, you know, there's, that's almost certainly a part of it, but it's that idea of somehow I would feel ashamed to be mistaken for pregnant when I mean, and obviously like that it's just, there's the pure, like that's a painful thing because it's having to admit or reflect on the fact that I wasn't pregnant and I really wanted to be. But at the same time that sort of focus on your body and how you look and particularly like how your stomach looks is it's hard for me. Like, to me it's hard not to see that in the context of all the various narratives around women's bodies and body size and yeah snapback culture, whatever it is. So yeah, that definitely, I can see, I can see that that's probably what was going on there.Laura: Yeah, I mean, I don't mean to directly compare experiences because I know that losing a baby is, is absolutely not the same as the experience that I have. Yet there are, there are some things that feel very relatable to in what you're saying and I'm thinking about a time when Avery was in the NICU and we were getting a taxi up to the hospital and I still looked very, very pregnant cuz I had just given birth and the, there was an assumption by the taxi driver that I was in labor going to the hospital to give birth or that, you know, that I was very close to my due date. And, you know, there was this big smiley face and this reception of like, oh, and, and, and, and it was the same when, when I, you know, when when I give birth, there were all these congratulations being thrown at me. And I was like, but my baby is, look at him like he's really ill. And I'm gonna get, I'm getting really emotional. Sorry Jennie, butJennie: no. It's okay.Laura: I just, there was just this visceral rejection of that congratulations. And at that time I can see it differently now, but at that time it, I was chalk up to the failure of my body, you know, the failure to, you know to have the birth and the labor that I wanted to have and sort of, you know, was blaming myself for effectively putting him in the NICU which is, you know, I've done a birth debrief, that's not the case.Right. like, I can rationally say that now, but you know, there was, there's something there that I think you're speaking to with, you know, the changes in your body and how your body looks and how something is perceived maybe to be this really positive thing like a pregnancy, like giving birth, but that actually something else is concealed behind that something very, very different. And your reality not matching up to what's maybe presenting outwardly, if that makes sense.Jennie: Yes. Yeah, it does make sense. It does make sense. I think that's a really good way of thinking about it. And then for me, I think the kind of, and this has been a sort of then been a thread that's gone through kind of all of my subsequent pregnancies. And then going on to have my son and to be a parent, and those kind of early experiences of parenting is that real fear of kind of something unknown that's wrong with your body because, that's kind of what that experience leads you to because there was never any, and this is the case for, I think it's about 50% of people who have recurrent miscarriages, as in, so people who have medical tests for multiple miscarriages, most, at least half, never, like, there's never any kind of specific diagnosis. And I think, I talk about this in the book, recurrent miscarriage is kind of thrown around as a label, as if it's a diagnosis, but it's not.Laura: And as if it's like a homogenous experience,Jennie: And like actually it's not like there'll be lots of different, potentially lots of different reasons. And most of the time, probably a lot of those reasons we don't know what they are yet. And most of the time you, you won't be given any kind of anything concrete that they're say, well, you know that this blood marker or whatever it is. Absolutely every test I had and there were many, lots of blood tests and then sort of scans of like my pelvic anatomy and the shape of my womb, that sort of thing all came back completely normal.There's nothing in my kind of menstrual cycle history or anything like that would, that would point to anything hormonal or yeah, and I think, so then there's I think quite logical fear of like, but clearly this isn't, clearly this shouldn't be happening.Laura: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Like this is too many in a row. It's too like the, the explanation, which is really what you are, you are sort of encouraged to think, which is that this is just bad luck.Like that doesn't feel very satisfactory. And I mean, it might be true, but I also think we're a little bit over-reliant on that idea that it, that it might, that it, it is true. And so that, that leads you to, there's something in my body that, or in the way that my body works that we don't really understand yet, that they, you know, don't know how to fix was where my brain went.And that that's very difficult to put aside. Even, and so, I mean something coming back to kind of how that's carried through. So when Edward was born and I was trying to feed him and kind of those early days of breastfeeding, which were difficult, not, I don't think in the grand scheme of things, I don't think we had that difficult a time.You know, he wasn't, very glad to say he wasn't in the NICU or anything like that. So we were able to try it right from the beginning. And I know that's not true for everybody. But you know, it's a hard thing. It's a hard thing to doLaura: Yeah. Regardless of, you know, how your baby came into the world, it's, it's hard.Jennie: Like even in the best of circumstances, like I think it's a hard thing to do and it's a new skill to learn all those things.So he, and kind of in spite of feeling like we'd sort of got the hang of it and it was kind of working, like his weight dropped at those kind of first checks that they do with the midwife when he was home. And then so they sort of go through all their things and they say, right, well let me watch you feed him.And they kind of do their observations and they looked at him and they kind of, and again, this is, this is something I write about a little bit in the book, but they said, It's like several midwives and then a feeding consultant said, well, it doesn't, it all seems fine. You're doing everything right. There doesn't seem to be a reason. You know, like positive things that should be like in other circumstances will be very good news. But you're like, but you are telling me his weight is dropping too much. And that really like hit some kind of internal alarm bell for me because it was just that I possibly didn't even realize I had, which was like, there is something wrong with me that can't be fixed.Or there's something wrong with him and you, like we don't know enough to know what it is. And kind of knowing that like being told there's nothing wrong isn't always very comforting news. Like that kind of prior knowledge of that. Made that in an incredibly stressful time. I mean, the, the, like, the punchline to this is the feeding consultant who was very kind and gave me lots of helpful like practical advice said, did you take a picture of the scales at the hospital? And I was like, no, of course I didn't. I was, I was being stitched up. She was like, they, cuz they write, I dunno if this is true for every hospital, but our hospital wrote down the weight in grams, so it's like a, it's that right grams. So it's like a four, it's like a four digit numberLaura: yeah.Jennie: Said sometimes they just, they might have just switched likeLaura: Like a two and a three or,Jennie: Yeah, exactly.And so actually what would've been like a, you know, a couple of percentage drop in weight was actually like 13% or whatever. And like he, you know, there were never any other outward signs that he was struggling. Like,Laura: Yeah.Jennie: So, like, I can kind of laugh about it now, but at the time it really felt, it was a real reminder that, that that runs really deep now that fear of kind of, it's fear of basically it's fear of the unknown, isn't it? But it's, it's so kind of rooted in my body and kind of by extension now Edward's body. Does that make sense?Laura: It makes so much sense and,I mean, I could and maybe one day I will write an entire book about feeding babies in theJennie: oh, I would buyLaura: early daysJennie: that book, Laura. I would buy thatLaura: And kind of like the things we say particularly around, you know, weight loss in those early days and, weight regain and feeding and, ugh, there's so much that happens in that short period of time that can, that can create anxiety and fear that carries through that, you know, that sets the tone for that feeding relationship.Like when I'm working with parents and, you know, there's someone ha-, you know, their child has some challenges around feeding, like I can, you can trace that line back to some horrific thing that uh, you know, a flippant comment that a healthcare professional has said to them about, you know, not gaining enough weight or eating too much is the other, you know, like you can never just get the, the, the perfect balance.Right? Right. And, and, and so the genesis of a lot of parents fears and concerns, like it, it comes back to that point. And I think, you know what a health visitor maybe isn't so cognizant of, is all of your backstory and the, the, you know, all of the challenges and, and the, the pain and the grief and everything that you're carrying into that experience with your child.So they're giving you this, you know, what they think is just a factual thing, which turns out, in your case it wasn't even factual, butJennie: No. No. And he was, and he was fine. Like,Laura: And that's the thing, they don't look at the baby. They don't ever look at the baby. They look at the chart. I mean, I'm doing a disservice to midwives and health. Not all health visitors and midwives, but you look at a number and you don't look at the broader context. Like, oh, you know, how are they feeding?Do they look like, you know, do they have like chubby arms and legs and, you know, what are their parents' statures and body sizes? And like, how does that factor into this? So like, yeah, there's, there's, yeah, I, I could go on and on and on about that, but I think yeah, like not taking into context the broader, you know, like fears and anxieties and pressures and, and feelings.The, the conflicting feelings that you have you know, as a result of, of how, you know, in your case how Edward came into the world and how you feel about your own body. I, I don't know, it just feels like there needs to be a shift in how we are yeah. Like how we are caring for, for people in the whole entire perinatal period.Jennie: Yeah, I mean, definitelyLaura: I think, I mean, yeah, that goes without saying right? But, I feel like I kind of lost the thread and just got up on my soapbox a little bit there. And I'm, I'm curious to know, there are so many other things, Jennie that we, we kind of like said that we would talk about that we're not gonna have time for, but I think what feels important to, to maybe think about is, you know, you've talked about feeling let down by your body and, and the sort of broken trust. You know, I think we, we all kind of go into pregnancy by and large, or going go into trying to conceive with like just this implicit trust that our bodies are gonna do the things that we would like them to do in the way that we would like them to, to do them.And then, you know, what you're talking about is just this bit by bit by bit erosion of that trust, you know, first through recurrent miscarriage, which, you know, in and of itself that's multiple layers of, of erosion of trust and then into, into breastfeeding. And, you know, I'm sure there are other elements of parenting and just being a body in the world.But I'm curious, you know, how, or if, or you know, what regaining trust in your body looks like, feels like, if it even feels possible. Yeah, I'm, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. In the, in the like five minutes we've got, got left.Jennie: Ooh. Yeah. Okay. I have a really pithy easy answer to this. No, I don't. But I do think it is possible. So there are a few things. So I think at least initially there was kind of the, I had the opposite feeling that I'd felt after my miscarriages and being very worried about being mistaken for pregnancy. So kind of getting, first of all, in pregnancy, getting further along.And I, like, I had a very anxious, very difficult pregnancy in lots of ways, like, and I. It was a very difficult time psychologically. But at the same time, there were definitely kind of quite healing, I think is probably the right word, things in, in that sort of physical evidence of pregnancy and kind of seeing my body change and feeling a baby move and going to term. That was really, that was very healing.It might not always have felt like that at the time, but like now I kind of look back and I think I can see that it, it was, and I like, I liked that, like, I liked kind of seeing myself pregnant and I liked kind of when I felt sort of ready, which was quite far on into pregnancy. Like I really liked buying maternity clothes and you know, things that, and even like if the maternity clothes were a bit crap, like , like, I kind of like, that was quite nice in itself.It's like, oh I would not choose this dress in real life. But you know,Laura: It fits. It fits over.Jennie: It fits, it fits and it's comfortable and like it's not too hot or whatever it was. And kind of recognising those feelings that you kind of, I would used to hear other pregnant women complain about and think, I'm so jealous of you.Like, getting to experience those things myself was really kind of, I dunno if that sounds perverse, but that was very healing. I was lucky in that I had a relatively positive birth experience. Like I had an induction, which I know is notLaura: Oh, no, that's not a positive birth experience, Jennie. That's the-Jennie: And like again, I mean God I wish I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it, should I, cuz that'sLaura: It's a whole thing. Yeah.Jennie: like, I mean, and it's literally a chapter in the book.Laura: God, it's so,Jennie: But actually I had a really positive birth experience like in the, possibly in the sense that it exceeded my expectations and that was, you know, that was good. I'm, so, I'm very aware that I'm kind of saying that to somebody who had the opposite experience and I hope that's not,Laura: Oh, no, no, no. I'm honestly, I'm so pleased when people say like, actually it didn't all go tits up and feel okay aboutJennie: Yeah. And, so that was, you know, that was and then, oh, this is what I was going to say. So the other thing was I had, after Edward was born and I was still like visibly very, like I looked what we would consider to be a pregnant body, but really it's just a, like, I had a baby two weeks ago, three months ago body like I, I didn't have that same like, oh God, I hope no one mistakes me from pregnant. Because I was like, I was there, I had Edward with me most of the time, like, and we weren't really going out that much anyway because of lockdown and things. But so that was really nice being like, well, yeah, I looked like I just had a baby cuz I just had a baby.And that was a kind of, that was a nice like it was a kind of, felt like a correction perhaps. It gets more complicated, that relationship with my body as time went on in a sort of more superficial sense and like a, I guess a body image for want of a better phrase sense. You know, like when my body still look different at nine months, like I have a particular loathing for those nineLaura: Yeah.Jennie: nine months out pictures like I.Laura: Well, you knowJennie: I know I know, I know, for some people, I know for some people that's just like fun. And not everybody who shares those pictures is a fitness influencer or whatever, but I, yeah, I dunno. They, I can't, they, they do something to me. And I think, what else do I think? So I think now that I'm kind of two years, two and a half years on from having a baby I think the thing that's been this is, it's perhaps quite a low key thing to say, like helps rebuild that trust. But it's just that it's a little bit of I've had a period of like stability, I guess, in my body. Like I'm not breastfeeding anymore. I haven't been for, for a long time. I'm not actively trying to conceive, I've not, you know, I've not had a miscarriage since Edward was born.Like that just period of letting my body just be and for it not to be not,Laura: I guess there are no expectationsJennie: Yeah, no, expectations is a really, yeah, I was gonna say like, no, like nasty surprises, but yeah, no expectations of it to be doing anything other than like, I don't know, letting me sit at my desk and work and, you know, theLaura: being, yeah.Jennie: plodding run at park run or, you know, whatever. Just like be, exactly just being. And it feels a little bit like, so we had a period of about a year off from trying to conceive. That was a quite a healing time and I'd really resisted it for such a long time. I'd really resisted it because I felt we just needed to kind of get through and, you know, try again and try again.But actually that time to just not be worrying about what I was eating or drinking or, you know, all those things was really it, I was quite skeptical that it, that I would make me feel better like that just, just doing nothing would make me feel better. And actually it did, and it's been the same postpartum as well, like,Laura: Mm.Jennie: But that's not always what you want to hear when you are in the kind of the middle of those, like ruptures in how you relate to your body, which like, that's difficult.Laura: And, and it's interesting that you used the word rupture there because it's, it's what was going through my head as well, that, you know, the these perturbations in our body you know, whether it's because of, you know, trying to conceive or the, the, whether it, you know, it's miscarriage, pregnancy itself, giving birth, breastfeeding, all of these, you know, just yeah perturbations in our body, you know, they can be, not miscarriage obviously, but, you know, pregnancy, breastfeeding can be really positive connecting experiences for our body and they can also really disconnect us and, and, and, and make our bodies feel not not quite as safe. Yeah. We, we've, we've maybe feel more disconnected in those periods and, and also it can be both at the same time.And and I think, yeah, I'm thinking about this from the perspective of, of being embodied, of being in our bodies, of, of not being separate from our bodies that, you know, these milestones, these landmarks, I suppose can, can both take us in and out of our bodies. And usually, and, and I think that's why it's such a head fuck, right?Because,Jennie: yeah, yeah.Laura: You go, you're going back and forth. You're like, do I wanna be in my body? Do I wanna be out? It,Jennie: yeah. Yeah. And like on a almost like hourly basis sometimes, likeLaura: And, and then, and then it sounds like what you're, what you're sort of, where you're at at the moment is like, just letting my body be, or letting your body be has, has helped you kind of come back to it in a sense.And I, and I know it's not, that's a, a nice simple narrative, but, and it's not quite that simple, but, but that there has been some healing, some catharsis, some yeah, reconnecting that, that has taken place for you in just yeah, letting your body be.Jennie: Yeah, definitely, definitely.Laura: Well, Jennie, that feels like a really nice note to wrap this up on. So before we go, I would like to ask you who or what is nourishing you right now?Jennie: So the obvious one is my husband Dan. He, yeah, he just makes sure, particularly at the moment when work stuff and kind of book publicity stuff has been quite overwhelming. Like he's made sure that I'm not staying up until midnight at my computer, and yeah, that I stop and eat my dinner and just basic, boring, basic things like that.But also something I was thinking about, in terms of like bringing this book out into the world is the thing that that's kind of sustained me, I guess, is all the kind of little ways that people have been supportive of it. So whether that's like you inviting me on this podcast or kind of newspaper editors I've worked for before being like, oh, will you write a piece about your book?Or like, so this is, this just happened at the weekend. I gave a copy of the book to one of my very close friends, and he has very deliberately put it on his bookshelf behind like, so he does a lot of meetings from home. He's like, I'm gonna put it on my bookshelf so everyone will see it. And I was like, that's the sweetest thing.Laura: Cute.Jennie: Yeah, exactly. So yeah. And just little things like that are really, really nice. And I've had a couple of messages from people being like I've, I've just found your blog, or I just found your Instagram and I've pre-ordered your book. And yeah, it's just nice. It's not like, it doesn't, it's something about all of those things together is very, like it's a, it's a very vulnerable book.I think I need to kind of accept that that's the case. And I think this has been a nice, like, balancing counterbalance with that is that actually lots of people have been very supportive and yeah, that's nourishing, I think in biggest sense.Laura: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I, I know certainly you and I have talked about vulnerability hangovers before.Jennie: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, they're real. And I, I guess, yeah, I don't know. The one from this book might be horrendous. It's gonna be like a, I dunno, difficult to know how it'll feel, we'll see.Laura: But having those kind of reminders that actually, although it's difficult, it, though it's incredibly difficult subject matter, that this will be really healing and cathartic and supportive for a lot of people who have been through something similar. And it sounds like that's the, the sort of little bits of recognition that you're getting and, and yeah, just the.Jennie: I think that's it. It's those like little moments of, we support this. Like we want, we think this message needs to be out there. Like, we've got you. Like that's really nice. It's just a really nice, it's a nice thing.Laura: Yeah. For anyone who's listening who has found this episode useful or any of Jennie's work useful, please drop us a comment to show a little bit of appreciation for Jennie. Alright. Before I let you go, I need to know what you are snacking on right now, so it can be a literal snack, like my one is this week. Or a podcast, a book, a show. Just something that you're really into at the moment and that you wanna share with the audience. So what are you snacking on right now, Jennie?Jennie: Oh, okay. So I really wanted to have like a good literal snack and I've kind of failed completely, but like, I don't want this to be like one of those like food diaries that go viral and it's like my treat is an almond milk cappuccino. Like that's not what this is intended to be. But for various reasons, I had some leftover chocolate oat milk in my fridge and I was like, I don't know what to do with this. Like the thing I was gonna use it for, I ended up not making. And then the other day I'd run out of other milk of any kind. I was like, I know, I'll put it in my coffee. And it's,Laura: Ooh.Jennie: It's great.Laura: Can I be clear? Are we talking about chocolate Oatly?Jennie: Yes. Do you know if that's controversial?Laura: No, no, no, no, no, no. I was just about to say, I use that to make ice lolls for Avery, blend it up with a bit of banana, a peanut butter,Jennie: That's a very good idea.Laura: Really delicious. So if you ever have, you know, like dregs in the carton and like you are not sure what to do with it, they make good ice lollies too.Jennie: That is a genius, so yeah, I've been having a lot like my kind of accidental homemade mocha. Yeah, so that's good. That's been a good, like, it's not really a snack, is it? It's a drink.Laura: Yes. Let's be clear that is, that is not a meal replacement option. NoJennie: No, no, no. But it is delicious and it has been cheering me up actually as I've been working. It's like so yeah, that's good. And I will have to try and make some ice lollies with it.Laura: That sounds delicious. Mine, mine is also a food related thing. So I, this week I made some vegan millionaire shortbread. Do you know, like Carnation condensed milk?Jennie: Yes.Laura: Okay. So like super retro.Jennie: Yeah. But it makes,Laura: yeah, they've got a vegan version now and they have a recipe on their website for like vegan millionaire shortbread. Like, it's not, it's not a new recipe or anything like that. In fact, my friend Izy Hossack, the cookbook author and food stylist you might have heard of her, she like styled one of their recipes for her Instagram like, ages and ages ago. And that's how I found out about it. And I've been making it like periodically ever since.And then Dave got a bee in his bonnet about having it the other day, like on a Monday night. So I had to like, try, like after I did the childminder pickup, like went to go and get all the ingredients from the shop and yeah, made the whole thing and it was I mean they helped as well, but it was delicious. And we have been enjoying Millionaire Shortbread so I'll link to the recipe in the shownotes.Jennie: Oh yeah, that sounds good.Laura: Jennie, before you go, could you please let everyone know where they can find you and your work, and more importantly, where they can get hold of your book.Jennie: Yes, absolutely I am. I am on social media, mostly on Instagram. I am there as @JennieMonologues, and it's Jennie with an ie. And my book Life Almost: Miscarriage Misconceptions and a Search for Answers from the Brink of Motherhood is out now and it's available, it should be available anywhere that you buy your book. So it's on Amazon, but it's also on Bookshop.org and Waterstones. And yeah. If it's not in a bookshop and you go look for ask them for it. Please. That would be, yeah, thank you.Laura: I will make sure to link to your Substack and links,Jennie: Yes. Thank you. Thank you.Laura: Yeah, I'll link to everything in the show notes and the transcript as well so that people can get ahold of your book. Thank you so much, Jennie, and really appreciate this conversation, and I'm really excited for your book to be out in the world.Jennie: Thank you.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Hey team! Welcome to episode three of the CIHAS pod, season 2. This week, I'm joined by Dr. Emma Svanberg - clinical psychologist, speaker and campaigner with expertise in attachment and perinatal psychology - AKA Mumologist on IG. In this episode, we focus on some of the stories that we bring to parenting, and the socially constructed ideas we have about parenting. We talk about how sometimes looking for all the advice and answers actually takes us farther away from what we're looking for, and I ask Emma why she thinks we're so drawn to advice from so-called parenting experts. Finally, we talk about how we can sift through all the noise of parenting advice, and find what's best for us and for our kids and learn to leave the rest. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Emma's here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Emma: If we are stuck on that idea that this is, you know, the kinda cognitive, that intellectual idea that this is what should happen, it becomes so hard to see our child's experience of what it is that we're trying to do. So again, you know, being able to base those things on the relationship. You know what, what did it feel like when I have prepared this food for my child and they have refused it, or actually they're disgusted by it? How does that make me feel? what does that touch on for me as a parent? And often there are such complex issues with that.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to another episode of Can I Have Another Snack podcast, where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Emma Svanberg. You may know her better as Mumologist on Instagram. Emma is a clinical psychologist, speaker and campaigner with expertise in attachment and perinatal psychology. She's co-founder of Make Birth Better and founded the Psychology Collective in 2019, which is a team of practitioners offering psychological support and guidance for the whole family.Today we are gonna be talking about Emma's new book, Parenting for Humans, which is out next month and is available to pre-order now. Now, before you get totally freaked out, this book isn't a book that tells you how to be a better parent or to set up new standards or expectations for how you should parent. Rather, the point of the book is to understand how you were parented and all the experiences that you bring to your parenting with the hope of getting to know yourself better and therefore understand what you are bringing to your relationship with your kid. So Emma and I discuss what some of the stories are that we bring to parenting about what we've learned, about what a parent should be from our own experiences, but also what are socially constructed ideas about parenting.We talk about how sometimes looking for all the advice and answers actually takes us further away from what we're looking for. And I ask Emma why she thinks we're so drawn to advice from so-called parenting experts. Finally, we talk about how we can sift through all the noise of parenting advice and find what's best for us and our kids, and learn to just leave the rest.So we'll get to Emma in just a minute, but first I wanted to remind you that my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop is on Tuesday, the 21st of February. Don't worry, it's not going to be me giving you a bunch of useless tips and tricks, but we will explore your relationship with food and think about how you can support your kids to have a positive relationship with food and their body. I will also give you some practical tools, but my intention is to help you take the pressure off of feeding your kids and help you create a home that supports a healthy relationship to food and bodies. I've linked to the full description in the show notes, so you can check it out. It's 15 pounds. It will be, um, all on Zoom, and I'll have the recording available for a week afterwards that you can watch on catch up if you like. Plus you'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters Guide to share with friends, family, childcare, and schools. So click the link in the show notes and you'll get the full details of what we're gonna talk about in that workshop. And lastly, before we get to Emma, just a quick reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader supported publication. I'd love to bring you more deeply researched pieces, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor and behind the scenes. Admin support. So if you are in a position to become a paid subscriber, then please consider it. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. It works out at something like 50 p an article. And if that's not accessible for you right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk, putting the word ‘snacks' in the subject line, and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. You don't have to explain yourself. I trust that if you are able to afford a subscription right now, you will, and if not, then just get in touch. All right, team. Here's my conversation with Dr. Emma Svanberg.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Emma, I'd love it if you could start by letting us know who or what you are nourishing right now.Emma: Well, at the moment I am just in the process of nourishing the, I suppose, the next few weeks that are coming up for me, which are all about my new book, that is coming out in March called Parenting for Humans, which is a funny process, right? Because you sort of just dated over a long period of time. And then, uh, you know, as you know yourself, as we get closer to launch date, there are lots of different kinda angles to think about. So at the moment I'm both nourishing trying to, uh, talk about my book, trying to really kind of get to grips with understanding how it's going to resonate with people. I think that's the kinda key thing for me thinking about the ideas that I really want to kind of get out there into the world while at the same time still nourishing myself and my family as best I can.Laura: Yeah. I mean, I remember when I published my first book, I didn't have that same, I didn't have any responsibilities to anyone else except myself. and then when the second book came along, I had a six month old at that point, and it was just a completely different experience and it was such a fine balance to kind of, you know, preserve myself in amongst the chaos of book publishing. So I hope that you're managing to, to find pockets and moments to relax and decompress and, and yeah, tend to yourself because it can be a lot. I don't think people realize that writing the book, editing, fact checking, copy editing, all of the, that whole lengthy, lengthy process is like 50% publishing a book. Maybe? Like there's all of the publicity and everything surrounding that is like, is a huge piece of it.Emma: Yeah, absolutely. I think that what makes it easier is that I'm really excited about this book. I mean, I've also written a previous book that was a very niche specialist book about birth trauma and was also very excited about that one of course, but this book kind of really brings in all of the therapeutic ideas that I've worked with with clients and have done so for many years. So in some ways I think that, you know, in itself, kinda talking about the ideas of the book, um, is something that I'm really enjoying doing and kind trying to figure out, you know, which has always been something that's been really important to me, how do we turn what can feel like really inaccessible, complex psychological concepts into ideas that will make sense to people so that they can very quickly then apply them to their own lives.Laura: So, and you've kind of, you've kind of touched on it a little bit in terms of kind of the, um, maybe more how the book functions, but can you tell us a little bit more about what you are covering in the book, what is the message you're trying to get across?Emma: Um, I think that it started off, the idea came from my experience of working with parents. Um, you know I kind of qualified back in 2009, I qualified but, and the experience that I see parents having over that time has changed so much. So back when I first qualified my role was very much about helping parents, most usually mothers within the NHS and I was seeing people to, you know, kinda really value their role and think about kinda getting support in place, you know, very kinda clear difficulties around, for example, birth trauma or anxiety about bonding with a baby or postnatal depression would be a very common, um, difficulty that I'd see. What's shifted in that time is that there is a whole added layer that has been added on top of that for parents, which is around pressure to do things a certain way, to be a certain way. To parent in a particular way, and that is pressure that is felt by parents, but it's also pressure that then is experienced by children. And what we have then seen kind of come up in, particularly in the last five years or so, is so much advice, so much information about how you can tackle that. You know, try doing it like this. This is a really useful strategy that you could have. These are some really useful words that you can say to your child, but what I then see is parents who've tried that, it's not working for a reason, and then they end up feeling like there's something really wrong with me. I'm a terrible parent, or I'm not doing this well enough, or there's something wrong with my child. My child is broken. Because all of these beautiful strategies are not working. Where we-Laura: I never, sorry. Just that, just like really, that really resonated with, not resonated, but it, it kind of, it struck a nerve that I've thought a lot about how pressure, and I think about this a lot as, as a professional who kind of gives advice and, and shares some of the, the things that you talk about in the book, you know, strategies and advice.Um, I try and be really deliberate and thoughtful and intentional about that. Whether or not that lands is another is, is another thing, but, so I, I think through, you know, at being a parent, think through how that, how much pressure and how much pressure there is on parents in general, how that contributes to anxiety, to guilt, to shame, to all of these things.But I hadn't actually thought about how, what the implication is for our children as well and how they experience that as pressure themselves and how they are embodying some of these ideals and ideas and, and fantasies around, what it means a per, to show up as a parent in a, a person in the world and what that will mean for them as they, as they grow up.So, yeah. Sorry, that just , sorry to interrupt you there, but that just kind of really struck me, what you were saying.Emma: It's so often it's about the dynamic, right? We focus our attentions as professionals onto the parents rather than or onto the child. But actually, I think kinda a really core part of the message of the book is that it's about your dynamic as a family and the relationship that exists between all of the different members of the family.So, you know, you, you as a mother might go off and do loads of reading, loads of research, gather loads of information, try particular strategies, but if they don't click for your child or for your family with your partner or for the context in which you're living in, actually, you can end up feeling like I'm not applying this in the correct way, rather than, actually, maybe that strategy wasn't correct for me and my family and the situation that we're in.Laura: Mm-hmm.Emma: I think for me a lot of that work, cause I, I'm an adult psychologist, I focus on work with kinda adult mental health. You know, for me a lot of that is about us as parents understanding where we're coming from. You know what's important to us, what history we're bringing into our parenting relationship.Once we understand ourselves, it becomes so much easier to understand what will work for our child or for our family, and it also really allows us to see them as the people that they are. That's why it's called Parenting For Humans, right? Cause it's about, you know, how do we parent as the whole humans that we are, not just how we show up as mum or dad, but also then parenting our children for the whole humans that they are, which is, you know, flaws and all. Aside from those kind of idealized stories that we read about or hear about that, you know, kinda describe family life as only fitting a very particular model.Laura: Absolutely. Yeah, you, that's one of the, the main themes that you, you talk about at the beginning of the book, this idea that we hold onto stories about what being a parent means, what it looks like, how we should be as parents, what we should value, and so on, and I'm wondering if you could just say a little more about this idea of stories and the impact that holding so tightly to these fantasies can have on us, on our family life, on those dynamics that you mentioned.Emma: Yeah, absolutely. I think, uh, you know, the book is based on this idea of a map that we kinda bring stories onto a map that we don't even know necessarily, that we have. Now might be stories from our own babyhood and childhood and stories from adulthood, stories from society, but also the stories that we've kinda internalized from previous generations, from the cultures that we live in.So, so many stories that we hold unconsciously, the tricky thing for us as adults is that we often don't even know that we're holding those stories until we come up against something that proves them wrong. And there are so many of them in parenthood, right? Like there's the kinda really basic ones like, I dunno, for example, maybe I hold a story that I should be able to put a baby in a blanket, pop it in a cot and it's going to go to sleep and that's just what babies do. That is a story that is so prevalent in our society.You know, think about what you see on tv, what you see in images. You know, those kinda photos that you see of beautiful babies with, you know, angelic faces, fast asleep. And actually then when you experience an actual baby and babies are full of more emotion, that can just change at any moment, you don't always know what that is, because you have that story or maybe you hold that unconscious story that when I put that baby in a blanket and I put it in a crib, it's gonna go to sleep. We're then coming up against that obstacle straightaway when that doesn't work. Cause we internalize that almost like a should, like this is what should happen. And when it doesn't happen, it can often take us quite a while to then think, well maybe that's because that story actually doesn't apply to me, my child, our situation. We then think I'm doing something wrong. Maybe I need a different blanket, maybe I need a different crib, maybe the room temperature's wrong. Maybe my baby has a sleep problem. You know? So we go down that road rather than go that level down and think, what is the story that I've kind internalized here? Is that a story that actually fits for me and for my baby or for my family?Laura: Yeah. I like that idea of kind of peeling back the layers. Like of, okay, this is what I'm told is, you know, could be wrong. Here are all the, you know, as you were listing all those solutions there, I was like, oh my God, there's so many things that we're told that we should do, so many variables that we should, you know, be well, first of all, aware of, and secondly, be able to manipulate. Um, when actually when we strip that away, asking ourselves, does this advice, does this information that I'm sifting through actually apply to me? And, and what is that background story that I've kind of hung, you know, I'm hanging my ideas about my child on, um, and, and, you know, do they actually hold up to scrutiny when we, when we look at them more closely?Emma: Absolutely. And it's, you know, we have to bring them into consciousness before we can hold them up to scrutiny. And that's the bit that often we don't do. Cause we just have so many of these stories. We have so many of these ideas that, you know, just because they're around us all the time, we don't question them.And then as soon as you start questioning them, what often happens is that people have, you know, multiple light bulb moments, right on that journey of parenthood where you suddenly go, oh, why am I doing that actually? Cause that doesn't really work.Laura: I know exactly what you're talking about with those light bulb moments, and I, I remember having one, maybe even, I don't know, as recently as like six or or nine months ago when kind of just, we just got out of, you know, the really, really intense baby phase. It's still pretty intense. But, looking back and, and like thinking about how many of these, you know, like how many stories I suppose I had collected from, you know, parenting books or podcasts or social media accounts or whatever it was.And then having to like really have a talk with myself about like, this is not, this does not apply to me like this , I don't need any of this. This is making things more difficult, more stressful, more pressured for me. And actually, what I noticed was that it was really undermining my own instincts about how I wanted to parent and, and kind of making me second guess myself a lot.Um, and, and as soon as I kind of got to that, it like made things so much simpler. I was like, okay, but is this, does this, you know, now I can look at something and say, okay, but does this actually align with my values? Is this actually helpful to me?Emma: Absolutely. And does it fit?Laura: Does it fit my child? You know, or is it actually gonna cause us more tension or friction or, or whatever it might be.Um, so yeah, I really resonate with that idea of having, being like a sort of light bulb moment and being like, this is trash. We don't need this . Um, and what, what's actually important and valuable for me? There was a part in the book again that really resonated with me, and I think it kind of relates to, um, to what, what we're talking about here. So I have your book and I've, I've highlighted a little section here and I wondered if it'd be okay if I, if I read it back.Emma: Oh, I'd love that. I haven't heard it out loud. So yes,Laura: Have you, you haven't recorded the audio book then yet?Emma: That's coming.Laura: You have that fun to come. So you, you've written, "because when we find ourselves looking for the answers that will make it all easier we can lose sight of the child right in front of us. We have this idea that if we just find the right strategy, the right label, the right technique, the right line to say, perhaps even the right diagnosis, then everything would be okay. Then we'll have cracked it, whatever it is, sleeping, feeding, eating five portions of fruit and veg, good behavior, a healthy relationship. We keep chasing that magic solution and we never stop and look at what is going on right now in ourselves, in our children, and in our families." And yeah, this is such a fine line that I straddle as a practitioner, someone who works with parents and families, how can I be supportive without making it seem like if you just follow my five point plan or my formula , that um, you know, everything will, you know, will solve all, all your problems.I wonder if you could speak to, you know, why we are so drawn to looking to experts to help us figure out how to parent rather than looking at our own child.Emma: I think that there's, well, there's two parts to it, right. There's kinda the context in which we live. So historically we would've lived closer to our families. We would've been part of communities, you know, even when I was a child, absolutely, there was much more a sense of kinda community there, other neighbors around, or more experienced parents who you might come to a particular guidance.So a lot of that has gone, you know, people are parenting much more in isolation. Um, and also in this country, that kind early intervention, preventative care that used to be very much part of the early parenting experience where you'd have a midwife that you knew well, you'd a health visitor that you knew well.There were community nurses that were around, had school nurses, so you know, all of those professionals that you had easy access to have virtually disappeared in the last kind of 15 years. So that has made a huge difference to people's ability to access information. The research shows that people still do turn to their family and friends, first and foremost, for information above experts.I think then when you have maybe particular issues that you are struggling with, where you might want to speak to a professional like you, if you can't access that for whatever reason, then of course there is this, you know, absolute wealth of information that is now available to you on the internet. So I think that there's just a kind practical reality to how differently we live and how that has meant that lots of people have less access to professional expertise then maybe they would have done in the past.There's also, I think, because there's so much more information out there that is accessible on the internet, for example, um, people tend to feel a bit bombarded. So there can be a pressure to feel like you have to choose a particular camp, you know, I follow the expertise of experts who follow like this line of thinking, for example.And then, you know, you can absolutely go down a rabbit hole finding out so much information about this one particular thing. But if that is a, an idea or um, a set of strategies that doesn't really fit your family, it can feel really hard to then pull yourself out that and shift to different, different model, you know, these things are presented to us as different models or strategies rather than flexible ideas that we might be able to apply in flexible ways. And then I also think the kind of other side of it is, I mean, we know this in a wider sense, that we do live in a society that rises perfection. And often when we come to have children, we might have already felt great sense of achievement and success in other areas of our life.And there can be a sense for lots of parents that they're gonna take same set of principles that I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do this well, and by doing it well I have to follow these particular guidelines. If I do these things, and that means that I'm a good parent, and it's almost like we apply that same sense of achievement, productivity, purpose to the act of parenting.What's difficult, of course, is that they children and ourselves change on a daily basis, you know when they're really little they change almost on an hourly basis, so, when we can feel like we're picking that box, we feel like we've got a strategy or a plan that works, if our child changes or our circumstances change, or we change, you know, and, and actually, you know, again, that kinda idea of flexibility can feel quite hard to hold onto. Think it's a combination of lots of different things and, and then of course, you know, supply and demand. The more that we look for expertise, the more experts will share their knowledge with us.Laura: Mm-hmm.Emma: You know it's so easy to be able to go and find a piece of information that we're looking for. And there can be tremendous benefits to that. And again, the research shows that there is a benefit to that. The cost is for people who have that sense of socially oriented perfectionism, where there might be a sense of shame or judgment, when they don't feel like they're meeting this particular ideal, for example, that might be held up to them by the different things that they're kinda reading or hearing.So again, I think, yeah, lots of different reasons. Some, some of them have kinda huge benefits to us in kinda what we have access to, but that also has to be held in mind with what it's costing us in terms of the pressure that we put on ourselves as parents. But also, like we said before, the pressure that then puts on us as a family, in the relationships within the family if not everybody's on board with that way of doing things. So it's important to kind of hold that in mind too. And sometimes, you know, you can take the bits that you need from experts, but essentially what it comes down to is how am I gonna apply this to my situation or our situation? That can be really hard to do.Laura: Mm-hmm. And, and I want to, to talk to you in a second, just a little bit about how we can sort of sift through the noise and, and figure out what, what is valuable and helpful for us. Because as you say, there are things that you know, might, might make a difference and, and might be really important, um, you know, might be great, helpful information for us. But  really appreciated you naming in the book and, and you've said it again here, just sort of this, what I would conceptualize probably as sort of internalized capitalism. This idea to constantly be producing, to be achieving, to be succeeding. And, and as you pointed out in the book, you know, that's how we are, um, schooled. That's, you know, if we go onto further education, that's how we approach our employment. But do we ever take a step back and, and think about why am a, applying the same tools to my parenting and, and my relationships with other human beings as I am to, you know, a, a achieving, um, you know, a certificate or a degree or whatever, whatever it might be. And I just think that, yeah, capitalism has so much to answer for here, both in terms of that and, and how we just approach our parenting. But also going back to what you were saying before about how we used to be so much more in community and around, you know, we would turn to like our parents or maybe like our older siblings or neighbors or cousins or, or whatever it was that were, you know, in proximity to us. And now it's so much easier to just look at, at, at somebody on our phone than it is to like reach out and have a meaningful conversation with someone. And that's because we're, you know, capitalism thrives right, by keeping us isolated, keeping us away from each other, um, when we are, we are so interdependent especially when it comes to, to parenting. And I think about this a lot in terms of how much easier it would be to feed kids if we were more in community. You know, if your neighbors were like taking round a lasagna cuz like you've had this reciprocal thing where like, you know, you each double batch cooked something and then swapped every week so that you ha-, you know, that you were caring for each other in that way and sharing the load and sharing the burden.And also when we're in community, we can see that, yeah. Oh, look, that toddler also doesn't eat vegetables. Cool. All right. it's a toddler thing. Whereas when we, when we look, log into social media, all we hear is like, oh, let's, you know, try and program our children to love broccoli more than they love cake or you know, whatever, whatever it is. So I'm on my high horse now, Emma, but-Emma: So go for it. Go for it. Love it.Laura: I just, I guess kind of thinking, thinking a little bit more specifically about feeding, um, and like the relationship that our children have, um, with food, which I think is so often, well it's a reflection of our own relationship with our food and we with food and our bodies and we, if we have unresolved things there, then that can, can kind of have a cascade effect.But also, you know, I see a lot of generic feeding advice that gets thrown around without nuance or caveats or, or just even the disclaimer of like, it, you don't have to do this if it doesn't work for you and your family. I think, I feel like if people said that more often, that would be really helpful.But this advice ends up adding more pressure to the feeding relationship, which can be counterproductive for feeding, and perpetuates this narrative about a correct or a best way to feed a child. And I mean, we could extrapolate this to almost any element of parenting. It's just I'm interested in feeding.Can we talk about how we can find a way to like sift through the noise and tune into what works for you and your family?Emma: Um, I obviously would say yes, And one of the things that I talk about in the book is kinda, uh, general parenting tools rather than kinda overarching strategies that there are, you know, few key things if you can hold them in mind, then you can apply different advice to your child and your family situation.And for me, one of the most important ones of them is around collaboration. And I think that, you know, what we were talking about before when you were talking about capitalism and that kinda sense of productivity and purpose, how that applies to feeding, and you know, in the home, how we bring our own histories into that too. I think so often when we're, whether we're talking about feeding, whether we're talking about anything else to do with family life, we come to it in a very intellectual way, we're talking about I'm going to apply this principle or I'm going to do it this way, and that's just going to work.What I focus on a lot in the book is that how do we go down into thinking about this as a relationship, which I know you talk about, you know, feeding is a relationship, that we bring our own relationship with food into that, but also our child will have their own experience with food. When we come at things from a cognitive way, you know, we're thinking about this is what I'm gonna apply to this situation and we're not thinking so much about how it's going to land with that other person. Or what they're bringing to that situation.Laura: Mm.Emma: So let's say you followed some beautiful advice that you've seen on social media around talking broccoli, that we're going to feed children broccoli.If we are stuck on that idea that this is, you know, the kinda cognitive, that intellectual idea that this is what should happen, it becomes so hard to see our child's experience of what it's we're trying to do. So again, you know, being able to base those things on the relationship. You know what, what did it feel like when I have prepared this food for my child and they have refused it, or actually they're disgusted by it?How does that make me feel, what does that touch on for me as a parent? And often there are such complex issues with that. Right? In the book, I kinda start off by thinking about us as, as whole human beings and what we're bringing. And then, you know, it's only when we understand ourselves that we can really think about how can we then relate to our children.So with food for example, you know, so much gets brought up for us as parents, where our children, we feel rejected. We feel like we're not doing, you know, good job, I can't even feed my child. It's one of those basic tasks like how can this be so hard? You know, that basic thing that everyone else seems to be doing ok. I must be doing something wrong. So what touches on for you, you know, those feelings of, let's say rejection or, or you know, conversely, maybe it's fury, you know how, how dare they reject this? I've worked so hard, so we're thinking about our own histories.And once we can think about what does that touch on for us, we can then think about, what do we want to shift so that our experience, our emotions aren't getting in the way of what we're trying to do with our child, which is very much a relational process.Once we understand that and we can think about what we're bringing, then we can think about what are those pieces of information advice that do fit? Where are those things actually that I feel like are still niggling, like actually this makes me so angry, so that maybe I wanna go think about that somewhere outside of this situation or circumstances. And it's only really then once we understand all of that, that we can then think about how does that child actually feel about broccoli? You know, do they actually like broccoli?If they don't, what am I gonna do about that? Am I gonna persevere? Is that worth it for me? Do I have the resources? Maybe it's okay for them not to eat broccoli for a little while, while I just get over all emotions that this broccoli has brought in. You know, it seems so simple these are the things that come up for us as parents, you know, multiple, multiple times a day when these particular situations or events can touch something that can feel so fundamental, so emotional, so raw. What we tend to then do is that we bring in more information, more kinda cognitive information so that we try a different strategy rather than than pause at that point and think, why is it that this is bringing up something that feels so powerful for me that is getting in the way of what I want to happen between me and my child?Does that make sense?Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. And, and I think like, just to maybe put it in slightly more, concrete context, at least this is something I've been thinking a lot about recently when I see a lot of advice about feeding our children. It's, you know, there's like, let's take for example, this idea that you shouldn't offer alternatives, right? If the child doesn't like, you know, doesn't eat what's on the table. By, you know, there's this, there's this school of thought by of, of like, well, if you offer alternatives, then your child is manipulating you and you know, you're getting into this battle of wills with your child and you know, setting aside what's going on with the child's psychology there, you're already setting this up as a sort of,Emma: A battle. Laura: A battle. Yeah. Uh, rather than a relationship where, you know, where you might be able to be like, okay, what, what, what's coming up for me when they refuse their broccoli? And Okay. Then once I've, once I've maybe processed that a little bit and, you know, talk myself down off the edge. What's going on for them?Oh, actually, like they have a sensor processing difference or they, you know, there's not enough safe foods on the table, so they can't actually, it doesn't feel, they don't have that sense of felt safety that allows them to come to the table and, and have a meal with the, the rest of the family if you're even eating at a table in the first place.Basically, it actually prevents us from being responsive to the child that is in front of us. And, and I, I know responsive can be kind of like a loaded term for some people, but what I mean by that is literally just being able to see the, the child and their needs and meet them where they're at rather than kind assuming that actually they're trying to manipulate you and,Emma: Totally. And I think we can often have this idea, right, that we as parents are in control and that if our children are not doing the things that we feel like they should be doing, that they're meant to be doing, that other people's children seem to be doing, then that's our failure as a parent and we just need to try harder or we need to work more, or that there's something wrong with them and so we need to work at kinda fixing them. Actually, you know, the relationship between a parent and child is so complex. You know, it's almost, we have this idea that children are like these malleable objects that, you know, if we're just molding them in the right way, then they're gonna come out, the outcome is gonna be the one that we are, you know, striving for.Rather than actually our children come into the world as these whole human beings who have their own thoughts, feelings, needs, beliefs, tastes, you know, and also then within the, the wider context in which we're living. You know, can I afford broccoli at the moment? How do I feel about broccoli? You know, what happened when I refused broccoli at the kitchen table?And how much is that impacting on how I feel now? So, you know, our history, our current circumstances, the relationships that we're in our work environments, our financial circumstances. You were talking about broccoli, but all of those things can really, um, you know, kinda, yeah. Obviously have a huge impact on these kinda very, what seem like very minor circumstances.Laura: Yeah. What does that broccoli represent?Emma: What does broccoli represent?Laura: What's it really about?Emma: I'm thinking about people listening to this and go, yeah, typical psychologist, right? We're talking about broccoli and now I'm talking about like wider society, but actually, you know, because we so often just see that kind of one idea of it's just, it's just about the broccoli and you know, if, if I tried hard enough then I'd be able to mold my child to eat that broccoli or whatever it might be.But when we can take into account everything that we're bringing, everything that they're bringing, our wider circumstances, then we can kinda, yeah, focus in on that relationship as whole people, right? Like this is who I'm showing up to this, you know, this kitchen table and this is who they're, and this is how they're showing up.And you know, all of those kinda different circumstances, how tired they are, all of those things that can get in the way, that once we let go of that idea of this is how it should be, we can start to see what actually is, you know, what actually is in front of us. And then we can, you know, think about solutions to target what is going on in those moments?Laura: I think there is something, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this as well, Emma, that feels uniquely. kind of, yeah. I think you used the word fundamental earlier or primitive or something that, you know, gets to really the core of, um, you know, survival for humans when it comes to feeding that really kind of just, it kind of, it's like a knife gets dug in in a way that it doesn't with, with some other areas of, of parenting that, yeah. It's just such a, an essential part maybe of parent, feeding your child particularly again, I'm thinking to like those early, um, early weeks and months and, and years when, you know, there is that kind of narrative of like, the first 1000 days are the most important of a child's life and you know, what you feed them now is gonna impact their, you know, cognitive development and da da da da da for the rest of their lives.And so I just wonder if, from a psychologist perspective, if you have any thoughts about just like, you know, what that's kind of touching on for us when feeding isn't going well. Emma: I think you're right. I think it's so primitive, you know, that actually so much of parenting is around these kind of really primitive survival mechanisms.Laura: Yeah.Emma: You know that actually our, our role first and foremost is to keep this child alive you know whatever, at whatever cost. And you know, feeding difficulties, can start, you know, from day one. So thinking about, you know, kinda those who have breastfeeding difficulties or feel judged for their feeding choices, for example. And then that can kinda go on so much through food being a representation of love, you know, how did we experience that when we were growing up?And then how do we wanna kinda translate that for our own family again within the context that we're in. So if we're, you know, two parents are working full-time, for example, how does, how, how do we kinda translate that into, you know, eating together or those kinda idealized family meals that we hold in our minds? So I think it can be very fraught. It can be such a fraught experience. And I think it's also an experience that is so judged, right? You know, thinking about feeding babies, thinking about what kinda food we give our toddlers, thinking about, you know, the, all of the stories that you've spoken about, diet, culture, obesity, all of that kinda, it can get really mixed. Our own relationships with our bodies, our own relationships with food, and how that comes up in our experience of feeding our children, how well supported we are in that, you know, financially. Again, kinda how that, how that can impact on what we're able to offer our children. So, I think, you know, it is the way that we express love, it's the way that we kinda show our children that we care about them. At the same time, there is so much pressure to do it a certain way so it can become so fraught so quickly.Laura: Yeah.Emma: And we also don't talk enough about how boring it can be to feed children day in and day out.Laura: It's so relentless. Three meals, three snacks. Like, oh, you don't like this anymore. Suddenly you like that.Emma: And especially, you know, when, you know, you've kind of been, if you've raised children during lockdowns and you literally, you know, it was almost like a constant rotation of food over lockdowns. So, you know, I think that we don't talk enough about that kinda ambivalence around, you know, not just parenting tasks, but parenting in general.But, you know, again, the idea is that we're have this kinda lovely, you know, food environment that, um, we're gonna share these kinda pleasant meals together where the family are coming together to talk about their day. All of this kinda, again, kinda back to stories, narratives, ideals that we hold when actually for a lot of parents, food is something that can just feel quite boring and quite relentless and, and often very stressful.And, and you know, as soon as we start talking about that side of things too, the more difficult, the more negative side of things. Often we can feel a sense of relief that actually it doesn't have to be this one ideal way that actually all of these experiences can be so complex and varied with individual.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for, for speaking to the, to that point and, and I think naming how Yeah. Tedious feeding a family can be. And we were kind of talking a little bit off mic. I have a piece coming out next week that talks about, um, feeding a child as an aesthetic. Like that's what we see so much of on, on, um, social media when actually if, if we're feeding with that per- like idealized image in our head. Again, it occludes us from seeing the child in front of us and being in relationship with that child and, and food can be, You know, again, without romanticizing it, it can be ti-, a time for connection and for checking in. It can also just be a cluster fuck, sometimes and through nobody else, you know, through no one's fault.Um, just because you, sometimes you have to just get food in their mouths to sustain them to get to the next activity or like, you know, to grandma's house or what, you know, whatever it is. So, um, yeah, I think. I really appreciate that you know, that you're having these conversations where we're looking at the messy, ugly, boring, tiring, exhausting side of it, but not in this like meme-ified way that we often see that that sort of like really trivializes how exhausting and draining and how much hard work all of this is.But yeah, I really appreciate that in your, in the book that you're kind of inviting us to check in with what, what stories and fantasies we're bringing to our parenting that actually might be causing us more suffering and, and, and harming the relationships that we're having with, with our families so that we can kind of, you know, give ourselves permission to take what we need and leave the rest ofEmma: Yeah. Yeah. And you can get really creative then, right? Like once you let go of those ideas and you think about what do I want? What do we need as a family, you can get really creative with the way that you do things.Laura: Yeah.Emma: You know, for example, feeding children in the bath, that is something that somebody that I know does, you know, occasionally when they've had a really tricky day and it's been an absolute shitshow, I'm like, you know we're gonna get in the bath, you can have some sandwiches, that means I don't need to do any cleaning up, and then I'm gonna pop you into bed and I'm going to sit on the sofa and that is not something that you'd ever see on Instagram, I don't think.But you know, just that kinda idea of what, what is gonna work for me? And what do I need right now and what does my child need right now? And maybe they don't need to have this kinda really beautiful aesthetic, aesthetically pleasing, mealtime actually. Maybe they just need to eat something quickly so that you can then move on with your day or have connection in a different way, and if you know, as you know, and you talked about, you know, the stress that can come with feeding can cause such a vicious circle so quickly that actually anything that you can do to kinda nip that in the bud and again bring in ideas around flexibility, creativity. What's gonna work so that you can feed your child but also in a way that feels the least stressful for all of you?Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I fully endorse toast for dinner. If that's like, you know what you need to do to like put something in their bellies and get them to bed. Like as long as they're having enough to eat, then yeah, we're good. Emma, thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation. Before I let you go, I want to ask you who or what is nourishing you right now?Emma: Um, well at the moment I've been really focused on kinda restoration, so I think last year I did a lot of work around kinda reflection over the pandemic experience that parents had and how burnt out so many are, given the experiences of the past few years that are continuing. But at the moment, what I'm really kinda nourishing myself with, so a particular person, Lama Rod, who is an amazing meditation teacher and started to run these Thursday meditation groups, for UK people, cause he's based in the States. So, I've been kind of really consuming a lot of his work and his presence is just incredibly helpful and healing and I really love what he has to say about this particular time that we live in. I think that you'll really like him. He has a lot to say about you know, he calls this the age of apocalypse that we are coming into, we're in dark times at the moment, but there actually is by embracing that darkness that we can start to think about what we wanna shift into the future. So very much about, you know, not being afraid of embracing the dark, messy stuff, which is something that feels, really resonates with me.Laura: I think that, um, it reminds me of Bayo Akomolafe's work. I don't know if you're familiar with their book, um, These Wilds Beyond Our Fences where they talk about that in terms of like climate crisis and, um, but also like racism and parenting. They're a parent. It's like, there's also some like nuclear physics or something in there. It's like, it's a really dense dense book. But, um, I'll, I'll link to that and I'll link to, sorry, what say the name of the, the per-, the,Emma: His name is Lama, Lama Rod Owens, and he's on Instagram, but he also has stuff on the internet and he does a number of courses. He also wrote a book, so.Laura: Okay. I'll link, definitely link to, to them in the, in the show notes. And then the final question I have for you, Emma, is, what are you snacking on right now? So at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something. It's like a recommendation that they have for the audience. It can be an actual snack. I mean, I feel like you've just given us a recommendation, but I want another one. Like what you've been into lately.Emma: I am snacking on rest, which I think, you know, the, again, we can often have this idea that we have to do these things in a perfect way. That you know, what our kind of recovery journey might look like, having a few years where I think things have been so intense, you know so many families... You know that if we talk about kinda how, you know, self healing or wellness journeys, often we're talking about, I'm up and meditate for an hour in morning. You just can't do that when you've got children, or it's hard to do that when you've got children, so I am a big fan of snacking on moments of rest, you know moments during the day to just reset yourself. So even just sitting with your eyes closed, taking a few deep breaths.Or just thinking about the ground beneath your feet or just stopping, you know, so that you're not just going and going and going all day, but when you taking a moment to check in with yourself and just see how you are.Laura: I love that microdosing on rest throughout the day.Emma: Absolutely.Laura: Love it. Okay, so my, I feel like my thing is kind of just silly, but in a, in a good way. So we are recording this in January, 2023. So we're just coming out of like the holiday blah, whatever that was. But I just came across last, at the end of last week, the 2022 Haters Guide to the Williams Sonoma catalog.So I'm not sure if you're familiar with what Williams Sonoma is, but it's this US based brand and it's like if you think about like a John Lewis or like, you know, a higher end department store, but on steroids. Um, that's Williams Sonoma. It's like all these wildly expensive, like, you know, like a countertop pizza oven.Like nobody needs that in a flat in London, you know, like who needs that? Who has the kitchen space for that? And it's like, you know, everything is, like, all the kitchen appliances are like $500 and stuff. But anyway, this guy just goes through a bunch of items in the Williams Sonoma, um, catalog takes like the copy that they've written in there and just rips it a new one, just tears into it and it's hilarious and it's very cathartic, um, and highly enjoyable. So I'll link to that, I know we're like, out of Christmas season and holiday season. But, um, I think it's still worthwhile to have a little look at and, um, you can watch out for the 2023 one if you're listening to this later in the year. All right, Emma, can you tell everyone the name of your amazing new book and where they can find out more information about you?Emma: Uh, yes. So I am Mumologist on Instagram and loads of my kinda links and everything are on there. Or my website is dremmasvanberg.com. The book is called Parenting for Humans, and it's out on March 2nd which is World Book Day, which I love.Laura: Lovely. That's so,Emma: So, you know, I'd again love it if people would pre-order it. That makes a big difference. But yeah, if people do get their hands on it, I'd love to hear what people make of it.Laura: We'll have all of the links for Emma's books and her social media and her website in the transcript and in the show notes for this episode. So check her out. Thank you so much, Emma. This was,Emma: Thank you.Laura: will be really reassuring for a lot of parents to just hear that, Okay we can let go of some of the pressure and expectations and just check in with ourselves and figure out what it is that we need and what we want from our relationships.Emma: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for chatting.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

What you'll learn in this episode: Why it's important to look for career opportunities and not just wait for them to come to you How government attorneys can be strategic about advancing in their careers Why attorneys should periodically evaluate their practice areas and consider how their skills may translate as their clients' needs change How learning to ask for and receive feedback can make or break your career What information you should gather before jumping into a career change About Laura Terrell: Laura Terrell is an executive coach with over 25 years of professional experience as a legal and business leader. In coaching, she partners with people to support them in reaching new levels of effectiveness and fulfillment in their professional lives. Her clients come from a wide variety of industries, including law, education, financial services, pharmaceutical, oil & gas, non-profit, health care, and technology. Some of them are senior corporate executives like CEOs and general counsels; others are entrepreneurs and small business owners, as well as professionals who may be returning to the workforce, making a pivot to a new career, or switching roles mid-career. She has worked extensively and in-person in many international markets and financial centers, including New York, Washington, Chicago, Silicon Valley, Canada, London, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, Singapore and China. Supporting start-up companies and their founders is also one of her interests, and she is an active private investor in early stage ventures. Additional Resources: Laura's Blog: www.lauraterrell.com Laura's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauralterrell/ Laura's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lauraterrellcoaching/ Transcript: Every lawyer must ask difficult questions at some point in their career. Should I go in-house? How do I become partner when I don't feel confident? Can I use my skills in another practice area? As an executive coach to lawyers and a former attorney herself, Laura Terrell has helped numerous clients find the answers to these questions. She joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about the value of feedback; what questions to ask before moving in-house or making a significant career change; and how to create career opportunities instead of waiting for them. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Laura Terrell. Laura has been an equity partner at two Am Law 15 law firms, a senior-level appointee at the U.S. Department of Justice, the in-house counsel of a publicly traded company and Special Assistant to the President at the White House. Now she is an executive coach to lawyers. We'll hear about that today. Laura, welcome to the program. Laura: Thank you, Sharon. It's a pleasure to be with you. Sharon: I'm so glad to have you. Tell us about your career path. You've covered so much. Laura: I've been really fortunate. I've had the opportunity to work in public service in the federal government in a number of different capacities, including, as you mentioned, at the White House and the Department of Justice in legal roles. I've also worked in private practice at two very large Am Law 25 law firms. That provided me with a lot of knowledge of the business of law and much of what your interviewees talk about on this podcast, which is marketing, branding, running a business, all of those important things. I've had the chance to work in-house as in-house counsel for a publicly traded company. That also has been an incredible part of my journey. So, I feel really fortunate. I feel, as a lawyer, I've had a lot of variety in my experience. I've had a lot of different opportunities that have given me different breadth and different capabilities along with way. Sharon: Which is unusual, because I talk to people who have been lawyers for 20 years in private practice or in one area. There's a lot to be said for that. You've really covered a lot of ground. When did you know you wanted to become a lawyer? Laura: I wanted to be a lawyer very shortly out of college. I was primarily interested in finding a career in law that would help me to mirror my interest in legal matters as well as government policy and government enforcement. I spent much of my career working in areas where I was either an attorney for the federal government or working in a capacity where I was defending clients and working with clients who were under federal investigation or dealing with lawsuits by agencies such as the Department of Justice or the Securities and Exchange Commission. What I didn't expect was that I would develop a practice that was heavily based in financial and investigations issues. I didn't have a financial background, but I learned very quickly about all kind of matters, including commodities markets, trading, options issues, a lot of the things lawyers don't necessarily go to law school for. They were of interest to me because it taught me a lot about how money moves, about how businesses interact with capital markets and what's important about that in terms of regulatory practice and regulatory enforcement. Sharon: So, you didn't want to be a lawyer when you were 12 or 10. You sound to me like someone who got a degree and said, “O.K., now what do I do? I don't know. Maybe something different.” Finance is definitely different. Laura: It is. I was an undergraduate major in government political science, and my interest was working in an area that involved federal government policy. I was tremendously interested in the executive branch and the regulatory enforcement agencies like the FTC and the SEC. I ultimately ended up working for the Commodity Futures Trading Commission as my first job outside of my clerkship and outside of law school. That was a surprise to me, but I always liked investigations work, putting puzzles together, working through facts, putting evidence in place, trying to figure out how it all connects. So, I did not grow up as a young child wanting to be a lawyer, but I saw very quickly in my college career that I was interested in finding a way to marry that policy side of my interest with an interest in legal enforcement and interaction with the court system. Sharon: You must have a lot of opportunity to put the puzzle pieces together in what you do. It seems there are a lot of pieces you put together. Laura: I have had a lot of opportunities. You mentioned a varied career. I think part of that is driven by looking for opportunities. That's something I talk about a lot with clients. When I have lawyers that come to me, they're often in a transition phase, maybe looking for a career pivot, maybe feeling stuck in a certain way. One of the things we talk about is that opportunities come to you, but you also have to look for opportunities. You have to find moments where there is something that makes you say, “This could help advance my career,” or “This could lead me to work in a different way.” I've had those chances. When I had the opportunity to work in the White House, for example, I didn't know that was coming. That came up in a very unexpected way, but it gave me a real sense of working across agencies, managing the administrative and executive decision-making process. Those were all things that also prepare you well for the corporate world, being able to manage different interests, understanding who the different stakeholders are. Those were things that gave me different skills that I think I wouldn't have had with just a law degree. My law degree is great; I'm proud of it, but I needed a lot of practical experience. Like a lot of people, I've found the things that interest me are beyond the bare bones of the law. My clients, for example, have legal issues, but they also need to be aware of where business intersects with those legal issues and what the practical business implications are for the questions that are coming up for them. I feel like a lot of experiences have given me that kind of understanding and ability. Sharon: Now your business is more about being an executive coach to lawyers. Is that correct? Laura: I'm an executive coach. I do work with lawyers. I do still practice sometimes in a pro bono capacity, but I primarily work with lawyers who are interested in working with a coach, maybe to reach a goal like making partner at a law firm. I've been there. I understand that, and I understand a lot of the challenges that come with that. Some of my clients are interested in just finding a better footing in their work. Maybe they need to shift how they're working, or they need to change their practice area because everything is evolving. One of the reasons I decided to become a coach was because I really like talking with people about what inspires them in their legal life. I feel like I have a lot of background that can be helpful as a foundation for understanding that. For example, I work with a number of government attorneys who are looking to shift into a different role, maybe a management role. Working in the federal system in particular, it can be a little bit challenging to try to get those next positions, but I understand that. I understand the hiring process and the evaluation at many agencies. That's something I also enjoy working on. Sharon: That sounds very difficult. I would think it takes a lot of patience in terms of a government attorney wanting to go into a more managerial role. Laura: For some attorneys, it may involve leaving one agency for another and leveraging skills in a highly regulated sector like energy or education and leveraging those into another area. One of the opportunities in government service, particularly federal government, is often once you're inside the federal government, the ability to move to another agency can be a bit more eased by the fact that you have years of service, you understand some of the issues that come along with practicing in an agency as an attorney, including the budget you have to work towards, getting approvals, the kinds of authorizations you need to take investigative or enforcement action. Those are things that can pivot among different federal regulatory agencies and branches. That can be a chance for someone who may not have thought, “Well, if I can't make this move at the Department of the Interior, for example, could I move to the Department of Energy or the EPA or another agency where I have a new opportunity, but my background is helpful?” Sharon: The background must be very helpful when it comes to branding or marketing a new practice area to be ahead of the curve. Laura: I think that's right. I encourage all attorneys to think periodically throughout their careers, “What am I branding myself as? What is it that people think of me when they come to me and ask, ‘What's your practice area?' or ‘What's your specialty?' or ‘What do you work in?'” Sometimes, I think attorneys get trapped in thinking they're doing one kind of practice, but it's really not the bread and butter of what they do, or that practice may be waning or waxing depending on the market. It's important to think about, “Oh, I've been focused on commercial litigation, but I've developed a different ability in restructuring work. Could I convert that into bankruptcy litigation? Could I bring that in as another aspect of my career?” I've met lots of people that have worked in different kinds of trial work, for example, that have also converted that into investigative skills. Sharon: You have to be thinking about your skills and what you're really doing, but how do you transform that into staying ahead of the curve? You talk about the importance of being ahead of the curve and not letting it get behind you. How do you stay ahead? Is that one of the ways? Laura: That is one of the ways. You have to constantly evaluate, “What do I want to be doing? What is the market demand for what I'm doing?” Also, “How do people perceive me in that market?” Maybe you're hiding your skills a bit. Maybe you're coasting, or you're assuming clients know what you do. There's a certain amount of marketing that has to be done, as you know, Sharon, like going out and speaking at conferences, putting out emails regularly, doing a webinar, something for your clients that gets them engaged. I also encourage my clients to listen to their clients. If you're an attorney in private practice, you should be listening to what your clients want. You may be selling them something that isn't top of mind for them or is an area that is not mission critical for them. A great example is working with a pharmaceutical company that's getting ready to spin off its oncology business but is really focused on its veterinary medicine practice. If that's the case, you need to think about what their needs are going to be in that area and ask, “What is it that you're looking for?” I think a lot of the rebranding and regeneration we need to do as attorneys is also based upon what you're hearing from your clients. You need to have an ear to the ground, keep abreast of market trends, but also listen to what your clients are saying their priorities are, because clients' priorities change too. Sharon: I think that's really important. I know one of the first questions I asked—and this is like 25 years ago—to a bankruptcy attorney was, “What do you do when there's no bankruptcy work?” I've seen it go up and down since then, but what do you do? You have to know. Laura: Absolutely. That's a great example. I know several terrific bankruptcy attorneys who are quick on their feet in thinking through tough problems and getting to the heart of what is it we need to know. You know why? Bankruptcy litigation moves fast. Bankruptcy litigators don't have the luxury of commercial litigation or civil litigation that can drag on for years. In a restructuring, you have clients that want to reconstitute their business as quickly as possible, address creditor issues, address debts, address pending litigation, so restructuring attorneys are really quick on their feet to think through that. They've got to be able to come up with ingenious solutions. They've got to persuade people. That makes them great attorneys when it comes to doing investigations that have a short timeline and require an adequate amount of evidence to be collected. They can actually come to a decision more quickly for a company, like, “How do you act on noncompliance without spending a long time doing something?” I find restructuring attorneys have a lot of great skills, even when the bankruptcy field is a bit less than active. Sharon: That's interesting. You could really build that into something different when the market isn't as strong in bankruptcy. You could build it into investigations or other things that are interesting and important. How did it come about? What was the catalyst for you becoming a coach? Laura: I had been practicing for a number of years. It coincided with a change in my personal life and a relocation for me and my family geographically, but also just an understanding of where I wanted to go as an attorney. I'd been an equity partner in two firms. I'd had an incredible practice. I enjoyed traveling. I had clients all over the world, but I also wanted to connect more one-to-one with my colleagues, with people I knew that would say, “Do you have five minutes to talk to me?” I realized that five minutes wasn't enough to dig under the hood of what they were doing. I also enjoy working with more junior attorneys who are in earlier stages of their careers, where they're asking, “How do I make partner at my law firm?” or “How do I advance in this corporation when there aren't a lot of senior roles for me? Does that mean I need to take a leap and change to another organization?” I like working with people that are maybe not sure of where they want to go, but they know they want to make a change. I also like working with people that have a very definitive idea. For me, that's really rewarding. I like the one-to-one. I also work with groups. I facilitate discussions and workshops with law firms and other organizations. I enjoy that as well, but the one-to-one is very personal. I just like helping people find the best path they want for themselves. Sharon: You must have a lot of people coming up to after you give a talk on what you do. Do people come up and say, “Who are you and what are you saying? You talk about branding. How do you brand yourself?” Laura: I tell people that I'm an attorney that likes to help other attorneys find ways to succeed on their own terms and based upon their own goals. I have a lot of diverse experience, so I can understand where they're coming from. When someone says to me, for example, “I feel really alone. I feel like there's no support for me in my law firm,” or “I'm not sure how I get that next promotion,” or “I don't know whether there's any path for me,” I've had some of those questions in my own career. I've helped other people work through those, so they're familiar. I like to help people find the right resources, the right communication tools and the right ways to decide what they do next, how they leverage the things they know, how they find the knowledge they don't currently have. I feel, as a practicing attorney, that I have a lot of depth and background that is relevant. People tend to trust me because they say, “Oh yes, you've been there. You understand this.” I think that does provide a foundation, if you will, for having the conversation. Sharon: I think it does, especially the fact that you have a broad background and you're still practicing. That must differentiate you as a coach. There are a lot of attorneys who are now coaches, and I think that's great, but the fact that you are still practicing and you have this broad background can differentiate you. Laura: I also spend a lot of time immersed in the legal industry. Many of my conversations and my meetings are with people who are not clients and are not going to be clients, but people that are friends or contacts within the industry. It's important to ask them, “What's on your mind these days?” or “How is your move working out at the new firm?” “What do you think is next on the horizon in terms of remote work for law firms?” or “What does this economy look like?” Those are things I get to ask other people about, and it's as much a research mission for me as it is finding out what's on their mind and what they're talking about. It's staying involved in the industry that I think gives a significance to what I do. I think it's an extra incentive for people to find me as a coach that would be helpful for them. Sharon: Do you find that the advice or the counsel you give has changed when you're talking about somebody who's working remotely now, in terms of finding more clients or showing your immediate superior what you can do? Laura: I find that attorneys generally are people that have come out of very successful backgrounds. They've done really well in school. They have good grades. They have succeeded in law school. At times, that means that if they're doing their work and all seems stable and they're getting the work they enjoy, everything is O.K. I'd like to point out that it's important to get outside of your work and your tasks to evaluate and consider what other people think of your work, what other people react to. If you don't know how you're doing at your firm, but you assume everything is O.K. because nobody's ever tapped you on the shoulder and said, “We need to have a conversation. Maybe this isn't the right place for you,” that can be a problem. A lot of times, law firms and even companies will not have a conversation and say, “Hey, this isn't the right place for you,” until it's too late. You need to be constantly seeking feedback. I think that's tough for attorneys. Attorneys are used to being the person in charge. They're used to being the person that knows how to do everything. I'm sure you've seen this on the marketing front as well. Attorneys say, “Oh, I don't need marketing. I know I'm good at this,” but do people know you're good at this? Do people understand what your capabilities are? Are you putting the right pricing on your work? Are you putting the right information out there? Do you have the right, up-to-date skills you need, or are you lagging a little bit behind? I think that applies in a world where people are working remote as well. It's really easy to sit at your desk behind your computer and say, “I'm working pretty hard. I feel pretty confident in what I'm doing, and nobody has gotten on the phone to say, ‘Laura, you really need to change your approach.'” Have you asked? Have you gotten feedback? Have you said to people, “How do you think I'm doing?” or “What else could I be doing for you and your company? I know I've done this work. Tell me what your reaction is on this. Were there things you would have liked us to have done differently?” I think that's a key aspect for attorneys to think about. It's not enough to do good work and get good grades; you also have to be out there getting feedback and getting evaluation from the people around you. Sharon: I think you raised several good points. First is feedback, which I think is hard for anybody to do whether you're an attorney or not, but you have to keep getting feedback. You also have to remind people what you do, whether it's finance or whatever. You have to remind them over and over, because they don't remember the first time. At least, that's been my experience. You have to remind them several times. Laura: I think that's true. You mentioned finance. When running a law firm or a company or even a nonprofit, there are business and financial deliverables that have to be met. The economics of the organization matter. For many attorneys, that's something you don't learn in law school. You find attorneys who say, “I didn't go to business school. I didn't know this was going to be part of it. I just know I bring in a lot of work and I have clients that generate a lot of money.” That may be the case, but you have to ask yourself, “What's the overhead?” What's the cost for the work you're doing? What's the rev cycle for getting that work in? What is your organization demanding? When you get that financial payout, are you making sure your accounts receivable are not aging? Those are questions that are not comfortable for attorneys, and they do need to look to other sources within their organizations to help them understand. It's more than just practicing law. It's practicing law within a business environment. Sharon: Do you have attorneys who come to you and say, “I think I'd be happier if I were on the other side of the desk as a corporate counsel.” Somewhere in-house I should say. Not corporate counsel, but in-house? Laura: I do have clients that say that to me. One of the things we explore as a first step in that work is to see if they can identify what they know about working in-house. They talk to people that are in fields or companies that might be appealing to them. It's one thing to say in concept, “I'd like to change jobs to do X. Maybe I'd like to go to a law firm, or maybe I'd like to go in-house,” but you may have misconceptions or assumptions about what that's like. That can be addressed by asking people who are there. If you think, for example, that in-house life is going to be a slower pace, you need to talk to some people that are in-house counsel. In certain companies, it's a very fast pace. It may involve being on call, particularly if you are working with overseas clients at different hours of the day. There may be a lot of travel involved. I have a client that recently joined a company in an in-house role, but one of the incentives for that person was to work in a role where they got the opportunity to travel, in particular to work in Latin America and South America, and to be part of the business where they have a lot of facility. For that person, that was important. For someone else, it might not be important. It might be less appealing to have the travel. It might be less appealing to have more erratic hours. I think you have to investigate the particular culture of the workplace you're looking at and ask the right questions. It's something we talk about. Just saying the abstract, “I think I'd like to move,” my first question is, “Why is that the next step? What is it that's appealing about that? What do you know about it already? Sharon: Do you usually get a blank expression? Laura: Sometimes I have people that have done some preliminary discussion. Sometimes I have people that say, “I'm not sure I would be the right person to work in this environment.” You also don't know that until you ask the questions. I work with clients to try to find their resources and the people and the outlets that can give them better knowledge and help them make better decisions. Sharon: Have you found, because of what you do and the clients you're advising, that working remotely changes things? Do they have to reach out in other ways? What are you finding? Laura: One of the things that has developed over the last couple of years with remote work during the Covid pandemic is people assuming that because you see someone on video, or you talk to them on the phone, that you are connected with them. We have different interactions when we speak with someone in person. I encourage clients to spend some time going to other offices or seeing if a colleague can meet them for a couple of coffee dates. Perhaps if you're not in the office on the same days, make it a point to be in the office at least one day together during the week, if this is someone you work closely with or someone you have a need to be engaged with. I think you need to ask yourself, “Who are the people that really need a good relationship with? Who are the people I need to engage and communicate with? Am I getting what I need professionally in that relationship by just doing it on a screen or a telephone call or over a text message or SMS?” Most people realize there is a degree of depth you get from in-person interaction. I'll give you an example. I have a client who recently went on their first long, overseas business trip with some colleagues. They've all been working very closely together for several months on a project, but this is the first travel they've done as a team in over two years. The client came back and said, “I can't even tell you how different it was having dinner with people, having downtime, getting a bit more of the pattern of how they work, feeling the energy.” That in-person interaction can give you more understanding of how people work best, how people respond and even what they need from you. Sharon: Is that one of the reasons you went behind the desk, because you saw law firms changing? Is this why you went behind the desk, in terms of being remote? I said behind the desk, but I mean corporate counsel or in-house. Laura: Frankly, it was because I had worked as outside counsel for so many years. I enjoyed working in depth with a lot of my clients, and one of my clients said to me, “You know our business as well as you know yourself. Better than we do sometimes. Have you thought about going in-house?” That gave me the perspective that I really like being part of the business world. I wanted to understand more of the business piece of my client's work and the holistic way in which things operated. Now, sometimes that can be a bit messy. Sometimes you can say, “I'm not sure I really did want to know how the sausage got made,” or “There are some politics involved in this.” We're accountable to shareholders, and that's driving a lot of public disclosures; that's driving a lot of our timing. That may be driving our budget, but I found that to be interesting. So, for me, going behind the desk and being the client, as opposed to being the counsel outside, was just a different aspect of lawyering I wanted to try. I found it fascinating, and I liked the idea of being part of the business world as well. Sharon: I think that's important. You knew you liked it, even if you didn't want to know how the sausage is made or you didn't care about the disclosures. You have to know that also. I guess it depends on what kind of lawyer you are. What are the one or two pieces of advice you give to the junior lawyers you talk to? Junior being lawyers that aren't yet partner. What would you say? Laura: The primary thing I encourage junior lawyers to do is to get out from their desk and ask partners out to lunch, ask them if they have time for a cup of coffee. Spend some time getting feedback from even senior associates that are supervising you, not just relying on the paper that comes back with the edits on the memo or draft you wrote or the document review you've done and being told, “Great. We're done. Good job. Move on.” Try to get in the weeds of the work that's being done. Even if you are not in a senior role and you have a very discrete piece, try to understand what the bigger picture looks like. Sometimes that means sitting down with a partner or a senior associate and saying, “O.K., I understand why we did this document review,” or “I understand why we're focused on this contract or this part of the deal, but what's the bigger picture here? Can you help me understand how this fits?” It'll help you understand a little bit more about your career. So, I think getting out from behind the desk and asking questions is important. That's often hard for young attorneys because what they're told is, “You'll get an assignment. You'll do it, and then you'll get the next assignment,” or “When somebody asks you to do something, just do it.” But fitting together what that means in the broader scope of the matter and the clients you're working for is an important question too. Why is this important to the client now? Why are we doing it this way, when we know the better way would be to do this part of the legal work first? Maybe it's because the client has constraints around that. I think being educated so you can understand the bigger picture earlier in your career is important. The other thing I've told particularly young associates in law firms is that you've got to start understanding the financials. This is a business, and you have to understand how the business of the law firm runs. That means sitting down and getting information, like what does my billable rate mean? What is the number of hours you need me to achieve every year? Why is that relevant? What happens if we don't hit budgets? Where do we make that up within the firm? Those are important understandings to have as well. You can't just be a cog. You have to find a way to get from the assembly line to the senior roles and understanding where you fit within that is critical. Sharon: Those are very good points. I think it would be scary for a young associate to ask a partner out because they'll think, “I'm just trying to have them like me.” I don't know. That's a different kind of advice than I've heard before. Laura: I have several partners that are clients that often say, “I wish associates did that. I wish they came to me and said, ‘Do you have time for lunch?' because otherwise I feel like they're just treading water, doing the work they're supposed to do. I'd like to get to know them as people. I may not be able to have lunch. It may be coffee. It may not be this week. It might be next month because I'm going to trial right now.” But I know several clients that have asked for that and said they find it to be a sign that a young attorney is interested in more than just the four corners of the work assignment. I also think there's no harm in asking. What's the worst that someone can say? “I just don't have time.” O.K., that's great. Find another person you can ask. Sharon: I think that's a good point also. A higher-up, a senior associate, might want that feedback or that level of interest from somebody, somebody asking those questions. I think it works both ways. Laura, thank you so much for being here today. You gave us a lot to think about. Thank you very much. Laura: Thank you, Sharon. It was a privilege. Thank you.

Today I'm joined by dietitian and activist Jessica Wilson to discuss her new book It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies - a book that uplifts and celebrates Black women.In the episode we talk all about what drove Jessica to write the book and why we need to re-centre the experiences of Black women in our conversations about bodies and eating disorders. Jessica shares some of her critiques of intuitive eating and body positivity, and why white supremacy isn't the root of diet culture, but the whole damn tree. Plus, lots of Lizzo chat and great Snacks. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Jessica here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Jessica: And so, so quickly it became diet culture has racist roots. And that was the concession. Like, we need to talk about both of these things in anti-diet spaces. And the way that we're gonna do it is say that diet culture, you know, make it really like this tree analogy. Uh, and then just happens to have racist roots.Whereas I see white supremacy as the tree, it's what's sticking up out of the ground. It's what we can see. It's what is, you know, ruling and governing and decides, you know, who is able to fit under its branches. And I, you know, shrinking ourselves via, maybe that's the connection to diet culture there, is one way people are trying to seek shelter under this, you know, umbrella, this tree of white supremacy.INTROLaura: Hey team, and welcome to another episode of Season Two of Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast, where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter.I can't wait to share today's conversation with dietician and activist Jessica Wilson, who is also author of the forthcoming book, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies. I've linked to this book in the show notes because you need to go and pre-order it immediately. So in this conversation you'll hear Jessica and I discuss her new book. We'll talk about some of the ideas that she presents in the book, like how the body stories and narratives of Black women are raised and silenced in conversations about health, wellness, and body positivity. Jessica tells us about why if we distill difficulties with food down to just the thin ideal, we end up missing a lot of the complexity of how Black women are told to be figuratively and literally smaller as a matter of survival. We talk about how intuitive eating and rejecting diet culture don't address systemic issues like anti-fatness and anti-blackness. And they perpetuate the idea that we need to find individualistic solutions to systemic and structural violence. We talk about how white supremacy and anti-blackness isn't at the root of diet culture, but how, in Jessica's words, it's the whole damn tree. We talk about Lizzo and respectability, resilience and toxic body positivity, and loads and loads more. I think I'm gonna be unpacking this book for a long time to come, and I'm just so grateful to Jessica for writing it and I think as a white person, I mean, my opinion doesn't really matter here, but I feel like it's important to sit with the discomfort and the critiques and reflect on the ways that I've perpetuated some of these harmful systems and narratives. And if you're a white person in this space, whether for personal or professional reasons, you need to get this book and also sit with that discomfort.So again, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Stories of Black Women's Bodies, and it's available to pre-order now and it will be out on the 7th of February. The pre-order links are in the show notes. It goes without saying that we talk about themes around anti-blackness and enslavement and anti-fatness. So if you're a black person or a fat person, please take care of yourself if you choose to listen to this conversation.All right, before we get to today's conversation with Jessica, I just want to share that I'm gonna be running my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop again in February. It will be a 90 minute workshop. Completely online and you will be sent a copy of the recording afterwards to watch back. We'll talk about how kids' embodiment gets disrupted by diet culture, and what this has to do with feeding. We'll discuss why we need to throw the rule book out of the window and let them have ice cream before broccoli, and how we can help build trust in our kids to get what they need. I'll offer a framework that can help you feel more relaxed about mealtimes, whilst encouraging kids to have autonomy. We'll talk about how providing supportive structure can encourage children to remain in touch with their internal cues for hunger, satisfaction, pleasure, and fullness. And I'll cover how fussy eating develops, and other developmental milestones as well as tools to help support our kids through them. We'll talk about why cutting out sugar and saying things like just another bite can undermine kids' instincts around food, and we'll cover how to talk about food and bodies without harming. You'll be asked to fill out a short questionnaire about your specific situation ahead of time, and I'll try to tailor the content to the audience as much as possible. You'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters download. The workshop is suitable for grownups of kids of all ages, but best probably for kids under 12. Parents, whatever that means to your family, grandparents, teachers, nutrition professionals, and anyone else working with kids are more than welcome to join. It'll be on Tuesday, the 21st of February, also pancake day, that's seven o'clock and it's 15 pounds to join. Full details and booking information is in the show notes and the transcript for this episode.And just before we get to Jessica, just a quick reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader supported publication and podcast. I'd love to bring you more deeply researched pieces like my piece on clean eating and kids from a couple weeks ago, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor. So if you are in a position to become a paid supplier, then please consider it, it's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's not accessible to you right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co uk, putting the word “snax” in the subject line, and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. You don't need to justify yourself. Just send that email with “snax” in the subject line and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription.Okay, team, here is my conversation with Jessica Wilson.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Jessica. I'd love it if you could tell us who or what you are nourishing right now.Jessica: That will be a big what. Laura, you're the first person that I get to talk to on a podcast and share that my book, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies will be out finally in 2023. So I am putting all of my energy and capacity into taking that book across the finish line.Laura: They don't tell you when you sign that book deal, that the publishing part, like the promoting, the marketing, all of that stuff is like more work than just like the writing part and the editing part, which is also a lot.Jessica: It is and at least you know like where you're going with that. You know where the book ends, begins and is in the middle, but then this nebulous like what is happening afterwards, that is also more work. Yeah. I was not prepared. I recommend somebody write a book about what it's like to write a book.Laura: I know we need that book.Jessica: Yeah. It never ends, it never slows down is the summary.Laura: But that's also a good sign. Like if they're keeping you busy with lots of marketing stuff, that's a good sign. And for good reason because I have been one of the very privileged people to read an advanced copy and I'm just, I'm so excited about this book. I think you've done such an amazing job of like dissecting these, like really difficult to, to digest and process ideas, but you've woven it, interwoven it with like humor, and like historical context and pop culture references and, and like, it just, it's like a pleasure to read it even though it's like really difficult to to read. So tell, can you tell the audience what the book is about and what it is that you're trying to say through this book?Jessica: I think that there were two parts of it, um, in my career as a dietician for, ooh, 15, I don't know, 17 years we'll say. Um, and even before that, the ways that we've talked about eating disorders, the ways that we've talked about eating always centers, like white folks experiences and the ways that eating disorders are supposed to present are how they present in very thin white girls and women.And like I was trained with all of that knowledge and it just was falling flat on its face when I was working with anybody else who wasn't thin, white and a cis woman in my work. And I also didn't have any other Black dietician colleagues, we only make up like 3% of the dietician field. And so I had no one to talk to about it.Um, like very lost reading Carolyn Costin's book, which again, you know, it's not anything new, it's just the same old centering of the same people. Um, so it wasn't like years or decades later that I realized that all of this needed to be in one place. I was having so many conversations, but how can we put all of this and give it context in a place and in a time where, you know, diet, culture and intuitive eating are becoming so much to the lexicon. And it still wasn't as complex as I really needed it to be.Laura: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a lot of nuance missing from those conversations and a lot of people missing from those conversations. Like in the book, you detail, you know how there are a few, like, I mean, it is like a few old white dudes in the eating disorder field that have written all the manuals, all the textbooks, all the protocols, all the psychometric testing everything,Jessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: to center their ideas about who gets an eating disorder, how it presents, and what the root causes are, which you completely obliterate in like the first couple of chapters.Jessica: The idea that it's all about beauty, right, is one that I for sure, you know, was trained in. It was everybody wanting to be thin and thin for beauty's sake. And because we have very thin models, like that's why people want to shrink themselves. Um, and yeah, just to be prettier and as we, you and I have discussed, and you know, other communities as well. Uh, folks of color, particularly black women in this book, can find a lot of survival and safety by making themselves both, uh, literally and figuratively smaller. So by shrinking, you know, in spaces where we're told we're too much, or even, you know, before we can be told we're too much, shrinking ourselves is one way to find that, you know, survival in white supremacy and then also of course for fat folks mitigating anti-fatness, um, by, you know, starving oneself is one way to find a bit more peace, even if it is not, you know, both sustaining and nourishing, I guess, for them.Laura: Yeah, it's a survival mechanism. It's a way of living in a world that is openly hostile to you and trying to make that as, as easy as possible for yourself. And even then, it's not easy. It's still not easy.Jessica: Yeah. And some people hear, you know, this conversation and I've had comments on Instagram that, you know, say, well, it sounds like you're saying it's okay to have an eating disorderLaura: Jesus fucking Christ.Jessica: And I'm like, no, I understand why you're saying that. I totally see why when I say I understand why you're starving yourself, to somebody who could be triggered to hear, I approve of you having an eating disorder.But yeah, that's not what is going on.Laura: That's a real red herring.Jessica: Yeah. The compassion, the understanding, and then also like eating disorder recovery is not going to make the things that they are, you know, somewhat solving by becoming smaller. They're not gonna make those things go, like magically go away.So how do we have a really, really hard conversation that talks about not just eating intuitively and recovering, but like the harms of society.Laura: Yeah. You're not saying that restriction, deprivation and trying to micromanage everything that you eat and trying to shrink your isn't unpleasant. You're saying, you're, it's not un-Jessica: or differently harmfulLaura: Yeah,  it's one way of trying to survive in a world that's really unsafe. And what you were saying is like these are the options availableJessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: The, the options are try and reform, conform through restriction and deprivation and, uh, you know, through effectively self-harm or endure the, you know, more microaggressions or overt aggression um, because you, you're even farther from the white ideal, is that like. Jessica: And what society finds acceptable. There is no easy path. under white supremacy for those whose bodies don't align with what, you know, Puritan culture had in mind. And that we continue to value as a, as a society. So there really is no easy path forward. And all of us are really trying to do the best we can.Laura: And I think you kind of touched on this as well, but you talk about, in the book that, you know, rejecting diet culture and embracing anti-diet, intuitive eating approaches to eating is not the one, it's, it's not gonna save us. That these are oversimplifications of, you know, what, what needs to happen, what needs to change.Do you wanna kind of touch on that a little bit more and, and explain why, why you think that is?Jessica: I think you teed it up really nicely when we talked about the safety and survival that people can find in shrinking themselves. Intuitive eating in all of its, you know, forms, fashion and principles like is not going to make anti-fatness or anti-blackness go away. So even if I, you know, are open to start eating again, if I've been restricting and in deprivation and I want to embrace intuitive eating, the reasons that I had shrunk myself initially, like will arise, and intuitive eating is not going to be like that solution. I will still be experiencing the other things. Again, also, it's an individual solution to a societal problem. And I often find that, you know, me asking you, Laura, to participate in these like rituals, these um, principles, you know, really puts the onus on you as a person that needs to solve a problem that you did not create.Laura: Hmm.Jessica: And as a clinician, you know, that doesn't read well to me. And I also, um, I want people to think less about food because, you know, as you know, as we deprive ourselves, the amount of times and amount of time spent thinking about food goes up exponentially.And so I don't like to really organize people's existence around, you know, always thinking about their food, but also not having like specifics as a, as a field. In the book I talk about talking to three of my white eating disorder specialist, dietician friends, and I said, how are they talking about intuitive eating these days?And I say that all three of them, you know, took their hands like butterfly wings across their chest and like fluttered them a bit. That's how you'll know if you're eating intuitively, was the message. And I was like, what does that mean? What are we doing as a field if a solution to a societal problem involves both like rigidity and fluttering hands.It's just, it's not the solution we need to society.Laura: Look, you know, that I have been an advocate of intuitive eating, have been, you know, I've talked a lot about it. I've written two fucking books about intuitive eating. But as I read that part of your book, I like threw up in my mouth a little bit. I was like, not, not actually like that butJessica: Yes.Laura: But, I was just like, that's gross. That, it was just really upsetting to read that that's, what it's been reduced down to is just like this, like ethereal feeling , that that's what intuitiveJessica: When you know, you'll know . No,Laura: that's fucked up, it's really fucked up and I'm kind of, you know, becoming more and more aware of how, um, sort of evangelical people are about intuitive eating. And I hope that, something that I've kind of gotten across in my books is that if we are, you know, if, if you are trying to practice intuitive eating to the letter and you're so inflexible in those principles, that's a diet and that you are recreating, reproducing the same ways of thinking and patterns of of being as, as, as in a diet. So what, we're not actually achieving anything. And like you, like the goal is, is to not think that much about food apart from like, okay, I need to eat something. What do I have available to me? Or do I need something in like,Jessica: Do I have enough groceries? Have I packed a snack?Laura: This is really important. Like, it's very important to bring snacks.Jessica: But yeah. Um, in the religiosity. I fully agree. And, see the connection again with the idea that we should be only eating for biological reasons, is another way the religiosity flows in there. Because, you know, I made the connection, my boss made the connection between that and the like, only have sex for procreation. Um, and just like wear these, like deny yourself pleasure, deny yourself, you know, so many things unless it's in a religious context and then you're able to have sex or then you're able to enjoy food if it's only for biological reasons. So never, and have pleasure with food or sex. So yeah, I definitely see the evangelism and religiosity forLaura: It is, and there's also just like this, I mean, I was literally shoving toffee in my mouth as I was reading that section, like, which is just funny. But, yeah, there is this distortion and I think that the way that that intuitive eating is, is talked about and how it's been popularized and, and this, because it's, it's come from the intuitive eating book is, as you say, this denial of pleasure, this, um, denial of our appetite and the fact that we eat outside of these very like narrow, very specific, parameters and that it, like, it's fine if you like are passing a window like a bakery and you see something and you're like, that looks good. I wanna eat that. Like, yeah. To, to just reduce hunger down to, or reduce eating down to only, only eating when you're hungry is, is ludicrous. But it, it's also really harmful because, uh, you know, I've, I've been in the room with clients who are like, but I, you know, when do I eat? And like the mental acrobatics of it all is a lot.There's, yeah, there's this other thing that I've seen happening with intuitive eating that makes me so deeply uncomfortable is how it's just become this like, really, it's like girl boss feminism, but for food. Do you know what I mean? Jessica: Tell me more. No, I love this. Where's this going?Laura: I think I maybe got this idea from Toi Smith who, I don't know if you know Toi, a Black woman who, she talks a lot about capitalism and the effects of capitalism on our lives. She has a lot of great things to say, but she talks about the commodification of wisdom that is just innate to humans, right?Jessica: Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah,Laura: Like it's something that we kind of know in our bodies and how white women in particular sort of repackage this and try and sell it you at a premiumJessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: and like that's what I feel like intuitive eating has become. And I see this a lot happening with child feeding, right? Like, we're going way off topic. We will come back to your book, I promise, but like, um, like the weaning industrial complex,Jessica: Oh,Laura: right?Jessica: yeah.Laura: I don't need to take a £200 course to teach my child how to eat. Like humans have been doing that since the beginning time, right?Jessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: And like, what the fuck, what am I paying you to tell me how to like cut up a piece of food? Like that's like innate knowledge and that we have as humans and it should be freely available to everyone, right?Jessica: Yeah. Hmm. The weaning industrial complex. Laura: Don't get me started cuz I have a lot of feelings about it, Jessica. But it's that kind of, you know, like, like eating is something so fundamental and so in, you know, inherent to our existenceJessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: Why are we paying to learn how to do that?Jessica: Definitely.Laura: Okay. I've gone way off, off piste here, but let's, let's bring it back to the book and, and I think we've kind of like touched on this a little bit in different ways, but I, I wanna ask you a bit more directly, like, you've talked a lot about this on social media as well, and in fact you gave a really, I think, helpful analogy that I'll ask you to share in just a second. But since the sort of social reckoning that wasn't in 2020 it's become cool, it's become trendy in the anti diet HAES space to talk about how anti-blackness and white supremacy are at the root of diet culture.Jessica: Right?Laura: Let it rip. JessicaJessica: Um, let's see. I'm not sure like chicken or the egg. I don't know if you have that expression in the UK or not. Um,Laura: That one translates.Jessica: Okay. I'm not sure which one came first cuz uh, there was a, it was a very short period of, uh, time during which people all of a sudden, in, you know, eating disorder community and dietician community, um, who were like talking about diet culture. And then all of a sudden in 2020, um, all of a sudden, you know, people are talking about race in ways that have not been done before. And so it was like this, how do we squeeze in this very important conversation about racism into this conversation as a field that we've already been having.And so, what, you know, Black Lives Matter. What Black folks, what our Black colleagues like me and Alicia McCulloch, you know, we're talking about bodies and the harm that white supremacy has caused for,Laura: mm-hmm. Jessica: ever, and anti-diet spaces, we're talking about the harms of dieting forever. I see that the origins of white supremacy, you know, are really what are impacting, like directly impacting both anti-fatness and anti-blackness in the US at least.And so, so quickly it became diet culture has racist roots. And that was the concession. Like, we need to talk about both of these things in anti-diet spaces. And the way that we're gonna do it is say that diet culture, you know, make it really like this tree analogy. Uh, and then just happens to have racist roots.Um, whereas I see white supremacy as the tree, um, it's what's sticking up out of the ground. It's what we can see. It's what is, you know, ruling and governing and decides, you know, who is able to fit under its branches. And I, you know, shrinking ourselves via, maybe that's the connection to diet culture there, is one way people are trying to seek shelter under this, you know, umbrella, this tree of white supremacy.Laura: And you give some examples in your book and I think that they're really helpful for illustrating what you mean because, and I'm speaking for myself here, like when it, it takes a long time to get your head around diet culture as a concept anyway, right? WhenJessica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Laura: been coming from like the, the, the weight normative paradigm that you and I were both in. Right? So like that, it's kind of like a head fuck just to even get your head around that begin with, but then take it to the next level, which actually this isn't even diet culture, this is something else entirely.Jessica: Right.Laura: Like, and, and maybe this is just me, being, like this is my ignorance or my privilege showing, but it's taken me a while even after reading, like Fearing the Black Body and reading Deshaun's work to like get to this point.So I'm just wondering if some examples, they were helpful for me reading them in your book. So I'm just wondering if it'd be helpful in other people's books. What am I saying? It would be helpful to illustrate for other people.Jessica: Well, I think people might love to hear the ones that resonated with you, you know? Cause they probably share a lot of your experiences.Laura: I think, I think both the stories of Mia and LexiJessica: Okay.Laura: Were really illustrative. Um, so I don't know. Which one would you like to tell?Jessica: We can talk about Lexi since she's now, you know, a US transplant into the Uk. Laura: I feel like I need to call her up and be like, Hey, should grab a coffee ? Jessica: Maybe she could be on your podcast, you know?Laura: I'm sure she could. I know she's been on your podcast and I need to go back and listen to that. But yeah, get her on the podcast.Jessica: Yeah. So gymnasts from age three, and really enjoy doing all of the gymnastics events. So there's floor, there's the uneven bars, there's beam, and then there's floor. And within the gymnastics community, the idea is that the beam balance beam and the uneven bar bars are like the elegant events. And inherently in gymnastics, you know, uh, only the white gymnasts are able to be elegant.Any and all black gym gymnasts are assumed to be more muscular, more powerful, and they're gonna be great on the floor and great on the vault. And Lexi wanted to do all of the events and was good at them. Uh, but, you know, saw that the thinner, whiter girls were getting higher scores. So being an athlete and very driven, she's like, I know how to be thinner and get, you know, therefore get better scores.So just, you know, started participating, you know, In deprivation, in restriction, in laxative use, um, in the like cleansing, cayenne, lemon water situation and eventually purging. But there was no, like, she was never like, I want to feel better about my body. You know, she was never fat. She just wanted to be metaphorically and physically smaller, to be more palatable to the judges, predominantly white judges who were judging her.She was never like, you know, I'm worried about the thin ideal. It just wasn't about the same stuff, you know, that we are told about diet culture and what diet culture means. Um, it just wasn't that.Laura: Yeah. So, yeah. In the eating disorder literature, all we're ever offered is, you know, people are trying to shrink their bodies because it brings them in closer proximity to the thin ideal. And that's the apex of human being like, that's all we're aiming for.Jessica: It's because they feel bad about their bodies.Laura: Yeah. Which we do get that message to an extent. But what you are saying is it's more than that. It's a lot deeper than that. It's a lot more harmful than that. And it's rooted in the origins of the American, well America as a country and chattels and enslavement, um, of Black people.And, and it goes all the way back to that and the, the, like we were saying at the beginning, the safety that is afforded to people who have closer proximity to whiteness. Is that like a fair summary?Jessica: Yeah, I think that you helped me out, uh, realizing that I had just jumped in with Lexi and gymnasts and not taken it back to enslavement, um, hundreds of years ago. Right? So the depiction of Black women then, you know, as strong as powerful, basically because they were laborers either out in the field or in the house, but just the constant valuation of Black women for their labor, um, continues today.And so, yeah, Black gymnasts are used for their power and their strength in their events. And so like, it's been hundreds of years, but the narratives of Black women are still there and they're ones that we did not ask for. So that's how I say, you know, the body narratives have always been written by white supremacy in a way that Black women will never, you know, have access to, you know, a validating body story unless it's rewritten.Laura: And what you just said there about, um, you know, this, the story of, of Black women's bodies being about power, being about strength. That was, again, if we think, think of it in historical terms because they had no choice, right? That was the, literallyJessica: They were put to work.Laura: But in the book, you kind of bring this into a modern context as well, which, um, and, and you talk about it through the lens of, um, resilience.And, and so if it's okay, I wanna just read a short passage, um, from the book. And so you say Black women often take on the false idea that we have superhuman strength and resilience in the meantime, sacrificing our physical and mental health, trying to make ourselves fit into a society that will never accept us. This replicates centuries of lacking body autonomy for Black women of being denied agency in how we tend to our bodies.Jessica: Yeah.Laura: And I think like this really, like who hit a nerve for me? Um, not hit a nerve in like a negative way, but it likeJessica: Sure.Laura: it made an impression. I really had to think about it. Um, and so sort of, I mean, did you want to speak to this point any? Jessica: Yeah, what stood out to me and then I was able to bring up at other times with the autonomy here and how conforming indeed can bring back some of what has been lost in people's writing our own stories. But at what cost, right? Yeah. So, Indeed it is hard. it was hard to write. It's hard to listen to. But again, knowing it's important, which I think at the beginning you'd said that I, you know, had wrapped in some, uh, humor, often dry humor, pop culture, um, a lot of, you know, really personal stories so that folks could, you know, have some balance and really get to the end of it, the book, rather than, you know, just deciding it's hard and not finishing. Yeah. But did the passage or what stuck out to you in the, in the passage?Laura: Well, I think it was kind of more, I guess I wanna bring it back to another part of the, this same chapter where you're talking about resilience, and you sort of, without like making a song and dance about it, you, you kind of differentiate between resilience that is embodied and innate and inherent versus resilience that is performed as an act of survival through, um, through the, through autonomy being forcibly removed, violently and forcibly removed.And, I think that there, like, it just made me think about how there is a lot of stereotyping about Black wo women being strong and, um, you know, having to as you say in the book, like literally and figuratively, having to clean up everybody else's mess, um, and carrying like so much for the rest of us.I suppose it brought me back to just like, I just felt so, like, I just felt really sad, like really, really sad that that's, um, you know, I was thinking about some of my Black, my friends who are Black women and, um, just yeah, how this, it was just really upsetting to, to, to think about, just everything that's expected of Black women and everything that they're carrying. But then there was also this most, this more kind of optimistic, hopeful piece in like, resilience that's embodied, that's like innate. That's just that, that's something that, um, you know, is developed through community and through, um, Black joy and some of the things that you go on to, you know, some of them were , uplifting things that you talk about in the book. So, yeah. Did you mean to like draw that distinction between the two pieces or is that just, am IJessica: I love how, no, which is great because I have more, um, yeah, language. That's super helpful and a great reflection. I think in that chapter tI alk about like, my needing to have been performing resilience in particular situation, and I just couldn't, and, you know, therefore I was then, you know, disposable to the organization at the time. Um, because as you know, you know, folks with chronic illnesses and other things, like there is just a max. And at some point, like, my body just can't fulfill the demands of society for me to, you know, put everything else, uh, before myself, et cetera. Sometimes I actually have to put myself first. Though yeah, not being able to do that performance is, you know, both like considered and ingrained as a failure for me. You know? And I assume other Black women, like we are known for our strength, you know, you can always rely on us. Um, and when, you know, we cannot be relied upon for Black girl magic, like that's devastating.Laura: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Jessica: Yeah. But then the other, yes, the innate resilience or the, Hmm. I wouldn't say tools gained through community, but maybe the, maybe it is. A friend of mine called joy as a weapon, the way I was writing about it as like a way to weaponize the, um, assumptions made about us and our bodies, and I loved that. So yes, resilience in two different ways.Laura: Okay. So I mentioned that you weave in some most excellent pop culture references and a piece that I enjoyed reading was your thoughts on Lizzo and respectability and all the shit that went down, around about that. So, summarize what you talk about in that chapter.Jessica: I start the chapter by talking about Lizzo's uh, decision to eat smoothies that she made at home. Uh, apples and peanut butter, protein bars, tea, something, pickles. Yes. That's. So it was smoothies and those snacks for 10 days and she had said, you know, two of us. 2020 had been a really shitty year. And, know, her stomach was real fucked up. And so, you know, she decided to go on what she called a smoothie detox. And the internet lost its mind. It was like when it's like you wake up to like an actual news story on social media, but this was like Lizzo is, is drinking smoothies was the actual news storyLaura: A like slow news day when you think about it, but like theJessica: That's probably why. yeah, that's actually probably true. Uh, it was in the period between Thanksgiving and, and New Year's maybe. Um, so yeah, the internet had big thoughts and it was one of those times where I was able to see those who were, you know, triggered, um, and probably weren't doing so well in their own, you know, mental health and recovery that got very, very triggered. One particularly, um, Jameela Jamil, who's over UK and in US. Yeah. Posted her own story of like engaging in some sort of like detox situationLaura: Oh, is that who it was? I was reading your book and I was like, come on, you coward name herJessica: Well,Laura: But you did on the,Jessica: She, yeah, she's mentioned ambiguously. Um, but yes, a whole cautionary tale of I almost died doing a cleanse. Don't do cleanses. Um, and you know, it was very clear for her, uh, Jameela Jamil that, you know, she had done so in the context of her eating disorder in order to lose weight.And I was like, but wait, did Lizzo say anything about wanting to lose weight? Like, I didn't catch that. Like I went back. Saw what she was eating. There were solid foods. Like, it was like portrayed as this weird, cleansy. I don't know what like the assumptions made about cleanses are, but there was like actual food there.I was watching it, it may have, may have not been, you know, a meal amount of food, but like, I still didn't have anything to say to somebody who's just eating food on a regular basis.Laura: Well, the thing is like, I think this is where you're going anyway, but none of our fucking business, right? It is ultimately, like if you were her, if you were her dietician, you'd probably have some things to say to her, but you're not. And neither am I. Jessica: I'm not, yeah. And my, and it probably even wouldn't, like 10 days of whatever it is that you're doing, it's gonna be like, there's, there's not much that would happen in 10 days that you wouldn't be just very hungry about and need to, you know. Laura: I'm just gonna say if you are in active eating disorder recovery, please do not do this. Like, just to cover our backs, but like for, people who are like, generally fine, it's not gonna do any harm for that length. It's not gonna feel great, but it's not gonna,Jessica: Yeah. I might end up hungry at the end of 10 days is like what I envisioned was gonna happen. But yeah, the people who had big thoughts and big feelings, I could definitely see like them, like they're emotional responses, um, coming from not ever, you know, wanting to see somebody go on a cleanse, but not only anybody go on a cleanse, but Lizzo. Lizzo a fat Black woman who takes up both literal, you know, metaphorical and actual space. Um, who everybody who would, you know, we looked up to Lizzo for her, you know, magical ability to actually love her fat body when you know everybody in America and Western society tells fat Black women that you know, that they should be ashamed of their bodies. Lizzo, was like one person everyone could point to, to feel good about their own bodies, like all of a sudden, yeah. Lizzo became this like body positivity mammy for a lot of people. Something she had never asked for. She is a performer, a musician, a flutist, and she, I assume, did not set out to, you know, have people put things onto her body that she did not ask for. She's not there for anybody but herself. And so by Smoothie Gate, like people are devastated. They, you know, are practicing self-care. They're talking to their therapist about this thing that Lizzo did to them, like it was,Laura: Were taking it as a personal betrayal, weren't,Jessica: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. posting, like, this is what you can do for self-care during this tough time. And all along, like Lizzo said, nothing about wanting to lose weight. And never did.Laura: And it kind of, it goes back to what we were talking about before around resilience and, and Black women, like people putting everything on Black women that they did not ask to carry. They don't to carry all your trauma responses and, and be your poster child for body positivity whenJessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: you've never claimed that for yourself.Jessica: Right. It really, again, just like you said, is indicative of just something else that goes on, like subconsciously for all of us and the ways that yes, Black women are meant to carry a lot more than just our own body stories and experiences.Laura: And I think it's kind of this like, and this is part of what you're saying in, in the book, and I'm kind of extrapolating a little bit here, but, the, you know, body positivity as it was originally conceived, came out of the fat liberation movement, which was as we are, we all know now, started by fat, Black, Jewish, and queer folks. But it's become this depoliticized movement that has been co-opted and taken over by, as you say in the book, like it could, you know, you've got like, I don't know, shapewear companies using hashtag body positive and like whatever diet companies and yeah, using that moniker. And then just the kind of the, the expectations and the pressures that come with, you know, that, that label that should love yourself, and that there's like, there's this great quote that I think you used for, is it Nicole Byers? That that talks like what, why do we need a name for just existing in our bodies.Jessica: Right. For not hating them.Laura: for not, yeah, yeah.Jessica: Yeah. We don't need to name, yeah, a name for not hating a part. She, I think she says a part of our bodies, because life's already hard. Why do we ? But yeah, that's, she also doesn't identify, yes, as body positive because of that reason.Laura: Yeah.Jessica: Having a name for just not hating yourself seems wild.Laura: Yeah. It, it really is when you stop to think about it in, in those terms. And, and like at the same time, you know, as, as some of the folks that you spoke to through the book, sort of say like, well, it was a gateway to fat liberation. Um, the, the problem is that like 90% of the people, more than that, that engage in body positivity don't go any further. And then becomes this like neoliberal self-improvement project, projectJessica: Yeah. And it that actually, made me think about that. Earlier you said like, wasn't, became less political, but I feel like people think that body politics, like in this, in just body positivity is like political. If you have no politics, like if you're not politically engaged, like this can seem so radical to you, even though it means nothing.It doesn't stand for anything, you know? So it's like, it's like, uh, composting as a politic, but like body from, you know, a politic from body positivity when it doesn't stand for anything. Yes. Neoliberalism and just this like making something out of nothingLaura: Yeah, this individualistic self-care, you know, problem that it's up to you to solve when, like, as we've discussed, the, the roots are social and systemic. The issues are, issues are social and systemic. Yeah.Jessica: But just feel better about your body. That's, that's the goal.Laura: It's all just a big distraction tactic. Though isn't it, likeJessica: Yes. point. Always is.Laura: Always, like it's all of these systems when we, when we strip them to the bare bones, are just to keep us, you know, distracted, to keep us separated, to keep us like out of community with each other. Because if we actually start to talk to each other about these things, we, we will fucking revolt and , um, the ruling class don't want that. So that doesn't serve capitalism we revolt.Jessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: soJessica: keep us anxious, to keep us buying and spending money on whatever the next beauty industrial complex situation has going for us. Yeah. And just spend spending money onLaura: keep us in scarcity. Yeah.Jessica: not doing enough. Don't have enough,Laura: And feeling like the only way out of that is through dominion of other people.Jessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: Okay. On that fun note, Jessica, I would love to know in amongst all of the media circus and just general chaos that is publishing a book, who or what is nourishing you right now?Jessica: I have been enjoying two different podcasts. Vibe Check from three gay Black guys that, you know, talk about what's keeping their vibes right, politics and pop culture. And I really love the banter between them. It's smart, it's sassy. Another by Britney Luce, It's Been a Minute, also an as an NPR podcast. And I don't know what folks thought the show was going to be, but it is 100% black, 100% black women focused, and I love it. And then I would say 2023, I am really hoping to become a better baker. And so I've just been telling people that I am, uh, somebody was planning an event and I said, I'm a baker, uh, what can I bring? You know, I'm just throwing that out there. Mm-hmm. , Laura: Love, I just love this, like fake it till you make it. AndJessica: Exactly. I'm a baker. What can, what can I bring you? And I mean, I'll still bring it, uh, whether or not it'll be edible, beautiful, it's something else entirely. But you know what, I'm a baker. So,Laura: What are you baking specifically? What have you been baking?Jessica: I think my next, uh, baking attempt will be to construct something. I didn't get to do any, like gingerbread construction situations. So I might find like a castle, um, and make one . I know.Laura: I was expecting you to say some like, but you wouldn't know what this is in in the States, but like Victoria sponge cake or like something really basic.Jessica: Do know those. Um, to make it, I like glitter a lot too. Uh, so, you know, there's a lot of opportunity to decorate a castle with glitter.Laura: That's, I want a picture of that one. I'm sure you'll put it on social media, right? Um, I still have Instagram, deleted at the moment. I reinstalled it on my phone yesterday to check a message. Um, and then immediately deleted. I'm not ready for this. I can't do it yet.Um, but yeah. Okay. So baking is keeping you afloat and so are these podcasts. I think the vibe check one, I just came across that the other day because I think Samantha, um, Erby like, name dropped that in the newsletterr the other day. I think. I think it's that one. But, um, okay. So I dunno if I've maybe confused you by asking you that question because at the end of every episode, I always ask what you are snacking on right now, which is your recommendation thing. Did you just tell me your snacks?Jessica: Yes. The things that I wouldLaura: Your recommendations? Yeah. Okay, so back, wait. First of all, I'll tell you my snacks and then I'll ask you what's nourishing you.Jessica: I love this. We just, Laura: We're just flipping, reversing it here. So my snack is a literal snacks that my brother just sent me a huge box of shit from Trader Joe's, which I know is not like exciting to you.Jessica: It's Trader Joe's!Laura: But we don't have that here.Jessica: It is a primary point of conversation when I'm over there.Laura: I just, okay. I need to compose myself. Cause I'm very excited about this box of snack of snacks. Like the, he sent me the, the Thai chili lime cashews.Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yes.Laura: There's like some chocolate, coconut, granola. There are like cookies in there. There are, okay, this isn't from Trader Joe's, but there are birthday cake Oreos, which are,Jessica: Yes.Laura: Oh my god.You don't understand. They have here, but they're not the same. And they cost like 10 pounds for a packet. I'm not paying 10 pounds for Oreos. That's ridiculous. Um, but I will get my brother to them all the way from America, um, on his dollars. And, um, what else is in there? Oh, like everything but the bagel seasoning the everything the bagel nuts.The, like, there's so much stuff in there. I'm really, oh, the, there's like, um, peanut butter stuffed pretzels.Jessica: Yep. That was gonna be the next one I asked you about. Mm-hmm.Laura: There's so much cool stuff in there. I'm very excited. So yeah, my thing is Trader Joe's snacksJessica: Absolutely.Laura: that you get your brother to shipJessica: Yeah, if he didn't send you cookie butter, um, highly recommend you put that on the next list.Laura: I think I did ask him for that and I haven't seen it there. So yeah, there's gonna a, a follow up, but yes. Oh my And there are nut bars. They're really good as well, and they're like cheap to everywhere else. Everything at Trader Joe's relatively cheap, so that's, I'm very excited to go and dig into that package. I literally got it right before we started recording, so,Jessica: Oh, that's excellent.Laura: Yeah. And if anyone else wants to send me a care package from the States, anyone inJessica: From Trader Joe's, specificallyLaura: Just like, just go in, do a supermarket sweep and send. Um, okay. So now we will go back and I will ask you who or what is nourishing you right now?Like what is keeping you afloat?Jessica: Hmm. I'm like, how long is this list? It's like, is it the acknowledgements in my book right now? That seems, Hmm. Laura: It can just be like, it can be your spouse or your dogs or like,Jessica: Yeah. Um, I know. I'm like, well, definitely.Laura: Just so many people.Jessica: I know 100% dogs. Um, I will say Amy, who made a meal of tater tots, that's something else that I find is not as popular over on,Laura: We don't have them, but I also had like a bad hangover experience with tater tots. So,Jessica: Okay, a meal of tater tots and other things, um, like layered on top, but also a signature cocktail for me and my book that had, oh, let's see. It was Gin and Prosecco and marionberry and rosemary. It was very sweet. So I would say that specifically in that moment of getting together and like recognizing that this book is, you know, being birthed and is coming out, that was a very special moment.So I will hold onto that one for a bit. Laura: Oh, I love that. Since we're talking about the book, do you wanna share the name and like I will link in the show notes, obviously to where people can get it, but do you wanna share the name of the book and then where people can find out more about you and your work?Jessica: Sure. The title is, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies. And there is a UK Amazon link for it now. You can find more about the book on my personal website. Jessica Wilson, ms r d um, dot com. Instagram has tons about the book and about washing legs. I'm over at Jessica Wilson msr, um, Instagram and Jessica Wilson Rd on Twitter. But most of the fun, the joy and the silliness is, is over on Instagram.Laura: Thank so much Jessica. We'll put all the links to where to find you and how to get ahold of the book in the UK and the US in the show notes for this episode so people can check it out. And congratulations on birthing a book into the world. It's so exciting and I can't wait for people to get it into their hands.Jessica: Thanks so much, Laura. This was really fun.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. 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HEYO. And welcome back to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast! We took a break back in November after wrapping up Season 1 of the pod with Katie Greenall talking all things Embodiment, so check out that episode if you haven't already. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.We're kicking off Season 2 with Whitney Trotter - Registered Dietitian and nurse, Anti-racism Educator/Consultant and Human Trafficking Activist. Whitney is also mother to a 6 year old who is a selective eater. In this ‘sode, Whitney and I talk about her daughter's eating and what this brings up for her as a dietitian and eating disorder professional. Whitney goes on to talk about her work supporting parents with eating disorders who are really struggling in their relationship with food and their body, looking closely at the underlying anxieties that come up around eating and what they can teach us. We talk about what feeding children can bring up for parents who have eating disorders or disordered eating and how that experience can be so triggering.And Whitney talks about how going to the drive thru is 1) not something you should feel bad about and 2) something that can actually bring more connection when you're feeding a family.Find out more about Whitney here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here's the transcript in full:Whitney: You know, I always think anxiety can teach us so much, right? Like, we typically treat anxiety as all bad, but I think it's a root of a lot of things. And so really leaning into, okay, what is the anxiety telling us? You know, are we, is there a fear? Right? So for sometimes, it's the meal that we're cooking. The parent or mom really wants their kid to have variety, but they're so worried about how this particular food is gonna show up for them. There's a lot of myths. There's a lot of lies that their eating disorder has told them about certain foods. And so really processing through that, processing okay, what feels safe to eat? What feels safe to share like community wise with our family. Things like that. And maybe even delegating, you know, what is their partner doing? Can the partner help with the meal times and the plating and the cooking, things like that, will that dial down some of that anxiety?INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to Season Two of Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them? I'm Laura Thomas, an anti diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Whitney Trotter.Whitney is a registered dietician and nurse, anti-racism consultant and human trafficking activist based in Memphis, Tennessee. And as we'll learn, she's also the parent of a six-year-old who is a selective eater. So Whitney and I talk about her daughter's eating, and what this brings up for her as a dietician and an eating disorder professional. It touches on anxiety, fear, and feelings of failure, especially if you've made your whole career about nourishing people.Whitney goes on to talk about her work supporting parents with eating disorders who are really struggling in the relationship with food and their body, looking closely at the underlying anxieties that come up around eating and what they can teach us. We talk about what feeding children can bring up for parents who have eating disorders or disordered eating, and how that experience can be really triggering.We also talk about renourishing our inner child through eating nostalgic kid foods, and I talk a little bit about that article that I published last week on clean eating orthorexia and kids, which I've linked to in the show notes and the transcript, if you haven't already seen that. And we also talk about how mumfluencer culture and diet culture collide to make it seem like feeding kids is about an aesthetic as opposed to being based on something that's achievable or realistic or practical or even functional.And then Whitney talks, uh, about how going to the drive-through is one, not something that you should feel bad about. And two, something that can actually bring more connection when you're feeding a family. Lots of really cool stuff. We kind of go all over the place, but in a good way. And I really enjoy talking to Whitney, she's someone I've wanted to have on the podcast for a long time, so I'm glad that we finally made it work. I just want to give a content warning. We talk about body image in the context of sexual assault and miscarriage. Not in any detail, but I just wanted to mention that it's there. We also talk about eating disorders and our experiences of having babies in the NICU and breastfeeding challenges. So if those are things that you don't need to hear right now, then please skip ahead. There will be another episode out next week. And before we get to today's episode, I just want to share that I am gonna be running my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop again in February. A lot of you have been asking about this. I kind of took a break from running workshops as I was getting my Substack up and going. Um, but now I'm able to kind of offer, I don't know how often I'm gonna do it, but we're gonna have one in February. It will be a 90 minute workshop completely online, and you'll be sent a copy of the recording afterwards to watch back.So you know, if bedtime goes way later than you're expecting, then um, yeah, you'll be able to catch up with it another time. We'll be talking about how kids' embodiment gets disrupted by diet culture, and what this has to do with feeding and how it can affect the feeding relationship. We'll discuss why we need to throw the rule book out the window and let them have ice cream before broccoli, and we'll talk about how we can build trust in our kids to get what they need.I'll offer a framework that can help you feel more relaxed about mealtimes whilst also encouraging kids to have autonomy. We'll talk about how providing supportive structure can encourage children to remain in touch with their internal cues for hunger satisfaction and pleasure and fullness. And I'll cover how fussy eating develops and talk about some developmental milestones with eating as well as tools to help move through it. We'll also talk about why cutting out sugar and saying things like just another bite can undermine kids' instincts around food. And we'll talk about how we can talk about food and bodies without causing harm. So you'll be asked to fill out a short questionnaire about your specific situation ahead of time, and I'll try and tailor the content to the audience as much as possible.You'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters download. The workshop is suitable for grownups of kids of all ages, but I would say it's probably best for kids under 12. Parents, whatever that means to you and your family, grandparents, teachers, nutrition professionals, and anyone else working with kids are all welcome.It will be on Tuesday, the 21st of February, which aptly is pancake day, and it will be at seven o'clock and it's 15 pounds to join and it will be over Zoom. The full details and the booking information is in the show notes and the transcript for this episode. For those of you who are subscribed to the newsletter, you'll get a reminder and a link in an upcoming newsletter as well.And one more thing just before we get to Whitney, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack is a reader supportive publication. I'd love to bring you more deeply research pieces like my piece on clean eating and kids, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor. So, if you are in a position to become a paid subscriber, then please consider it. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's not accessible for you right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk, putting the word snacks in the subject line and we will hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. Alright, team, here is my conversation with Whitney Trotter.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Whitney, I'd love it if you could share with the audience who or what you are nourishing right now.Whitney: Oh my goodness. Okay. Well I am a mom of a feisty six year old, little girl who I just adore. So, we were kind of talking before the thing about some other dieticians that work in pediatrics and feeding and things like that. So I'm exploring the land of working with the selective eater. So our, yeah, so it's really fun.Like our, nourishing times are a bit chaotic right now and so doing that. I'm also, uh, an avid coffee lover, so I have been trying different just flavours of coffee, different roasters and a non beverage food thing that I've been kind of nourishing my soul with lately is I've been listening to the audiobook of Hood Feminism.I love, love it. So.Laura: Yeah, lots of different things. Tell us about your selective eater a little bit more.Whitney: Oh my goodness, so I think any, any mom, but particularly like dietician, nurse, mom, it's, it's so hard to like really kind of step back from our traditional schooling. So she legitimately has like six foods that she'll eat. Um, Mac and cheese, chicken nuggets, bacon, pancakes, strawberries, peanut butter and jelly. And that is it. So we've been really working with, you know, the autonomy piece, but also like, you know, there's also that just like natural worry of parents of it's like, okay, is my kid getting enough? Like, so many times in like our kind of traditional setting, it's like variety, variety, variety. And so really working on trying to let her be autonomous in the variety.So we've been giving her like, you know, three options to choose from and then she gets to choose out of those, like three to four options, what she's willing to try.Laura: Yeah, it's so, it's so interesting hearing from a parent who is, is, you know, has, I don't wanna say legitimately selective eater, because that makes it seem like other forms are illegitimate. But I suppose what I was thinking about there is how from social media, we get a really distorted picture of what kids should eat.And we see them eating like kale and I don't know, mushrooms and all of these, these foods that are really challenging for little kids. And so then when they go through that like normal or like typical food neophobic stage as toddlers and preschoolers and even into like school age, that parents have this sense that they're this, that they're developing feeding differences.And it's not until you hear of a child who is literally only eating six foods that you realize, wow, okay, actually my kid does have a reasonable variety and balance of food. So how are you, are you like, are you getting professional support with that? Like, and, and also like what does that bring up for you as a dietician, as a nurse?Whitney: Well at first you're like did I fail my kid? What am I doing wrong? I mean, you know, cause I work in and I see, I work in the land of eating disorder, so I treat a lot of children and adolescents and adults with disordered eating and eating disorders. So it is interesting. We do a lot of food neutrality, like we do not moralise food. Food is food. So, and she's, she's a spicy six year old, so she's very quick to, you know, to say the same thing that, that I'm teaching her back to me, which is always funny. So she's on the growth chart, like she's growing and so right now we're just kind of, you know, living in the land of offering the choices and not forcing, and then just making sure she's getting enough of the foods that she will eat throughout the day.So the biggest thing is I just wanna make sure she was growing and nourishing. And she is, and our pediatrician is wonderful.She's also Venezuelan, and so I think it's just a, another just added benefit of she's seen kids in from so many different other cultures and countries. And so she was like, you know what? I'm not worried. I don't want you to be worried. I'm like, okay.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And I like, I suppose it is really reassuring to hear from another healthcare professional like it, you know, everything looks good here. But I can also imagine like, as, as a nutritionist being like, holy shit, my kid is only six. Like, it is, it's so, even though I work with that population, like I know it's like really anxiety provoking when, you know, like kind of in the way that doctors make the worst patients like... Whitney: Yes, it's so true, so true. Cuz I mean, you really do, you're like, okay, what do I do? Like, you know, especially again cuz working in the eating disorders, you know what the outcome could be if you say certain things, if you press too hard. You know what I'm saying? So we're very cognizant of that. But we also just, we are, we really do tend to like, let her choose a lot of things. Like we really are those type of parents that like work with her in bodily autonomy and even when it comes to food, you know, so, it, I would be lying if I said it wasn't challenging, cuz it definitely is challenging. So we're kind of just staying the course right now.Laura: Well, and this is a, this is a, a different thing, but I have a two and a half year old and I've, I've spoken about this, loads on the podcast, but he was in the NICU for like two, only like two weeks, which, actually, I say only two weeks now, but at the time it felt like an eternity. And we had a really, really difficult time getting feeding established, breastfeeding established, and yeah.And, and there was something that felt so like, It, it just like really shook the core of my identity as a nutritionist to not be able to feed my child.Whitney: Yes,Laura: There is something that, that like just touched on, something like really deep, like I've made my entire career about nourishing people, yet I can't nourish my own child and that, I don't know if, if that resonates with you at all in your experience of feeding your daughter. Whitney: This is so wild that you're saying this, and thank you for sharing that. We had the exact same thing. She was in NICU and they gave her a, they gave her the wrong nipple. They, for the bottle, it was like a fast,Laura: A fast flow. Yes. That happened to us too.Whitney: Yeah. So then when she went to latch, I couldn't, she, she couldn't latch.And so similar, you go through this period, like you feel like a failure, you know, like you feel like, like you just said, it's like I, I've spent my whole career trying to help others nourish their body and like, I can't even feed my own child. And so she ended up with a really bad gag reflex, like, just really, really bad when she was younger. We would have to like prop her up to sleep. She was on medication. So I mean, it's been, yeah, even now she will kind of sometimes struggle with that, but yeah, that resonates so deeply. And just the trauma of your baby being in NICU, I mean, so, it's so traumatic for you, you know, as a parent. And so, yeah, definitely. It's so interesting. We have similar, uh, similar stories regarding that.Laura: Well, and then I think this is the, the thing that I've kind of discovered, like through having conversations on this podcast is that it it, because it, it happens to so many of us but we're just kind of expected to power on and keep going and, and not, and you know, just like dust it under, under the rug. And yeah, I think there, I'm thinking particularly of a conversation that I had with Christy Harrison. You know, again, sort of her story parallels a lot of my experience as well. And yeah, just how healing and cathartic it is to be able to, to share this more openly. Yeah, because it's, like I said, I think a lot of it, we, we, a lot of us experience, you know, similar things. I'm also really, you know, you've, you've mentioned a couple of times that you work in the eating disorder field and another theme that we touch on a lot in the, on the podcast is, you know, healing our own relationship with food as a parent and sort of supporting our children to have a positive or a healthy, or, you know, like however you wanna frame it, like a, a good relationship with food and bodies.And I'm, I'm really curious to hear more about your experience of working with parents who have either disordered eating or eating disorders and, and yeah, how you hold them and support them in your work.Whitney: Yeah, it's so interesting because I, I'm thinking of a particular session I had last week with a mom and we were really talking about how, you know, her daughter for the first time noticed that she ate dinner and you know, one of the things I told her, I said, your daughter is never gonna thank you for your restriction, but she is gonna remember the memories that you cultivate with her, particularly around meal times. And you know, I think that was really hard for her to hear and we kind of just sat with that and really explored, you know, what is it like for you to be able to sit at the dinner table with your kids and not every night like I know that's not realistic and you know, but two or three nights a week and engage in conversation.Cuz usually as parents and it's hard, right? Like different seasons of life, sometimes dinnertime is the only time you have to like sit and talk with them. There's after school activities, you know, parents are usually working, somebody's cooking, somebody's cleaning, and then you're exhausted. And so sometimes that like 30, 45 minutes is like the only time the family is together.And I think the eating disorder, you know, really can come in and monopolize that time as well. And it makes it very hard for somebody who is struggling, you know, with nourishment of their body, with body image to be able to sit and really holistically be present and be in the moment. So we definitely talk a lot about that.You know, I think too, you know, kind of speaking more generally with moms, we're, we're used to having to do so much, right? Like some of us are working in home, some of us are working outside of the home. Still taking a lot of the responsibility of maybe driving or navigating, dropping kids off to school or daycare, cooking, like I said, cooking, cleaning, there's so much on us that I think also by the time we finally sit down to eat, we're just so exhausted.Laura: Mm-hmm. If, if you have an eating disorder, even just disordered eating, when you're that exhausted, it's those eating disorder thoughts or those, you know, thoughts about weight and body size becomes so much more pronounced,Whitney: Yes,Laura: and that further takes you away from being connected and being present with your family. And I'm, I'm wondering what you offer your clients who are, yeah, really just struggling even to get through a mealtime with their family. Whitney: Yeah. So usually what we'll do is we'll do meal exposures together or we'll do like a snack, something to where there's not as much pressure of eyes kind of on them, so to speak. You know, so, maybe we'll try breakfast or lunch, we'll do some kind of exposures together, really dialing into what is the anxiety.You know, I think anxiety can teach us so much, right? Like, we typically treat anxiety as all bad, but I think it's, it's a root of a lot of things. And so really leaning into, okay, what is the anxiety telling us? You know, are we, is there a fear? Right? Sometimes, it's the meal that we're cooking. The parent or mom really wants their kid to have variety, but they're so worried about how this particular food is gonna show up for them. There's a lot of myths. There's a lot of lies that their eating disorder has told them about certain foods. And so really processing through that, processing okay, what feels safe to eat? What feels safe to share like community wise with our family. Things like that. And maybe even delegating, you know, what is their partner doing? Can the partner help with the meal times and the plating and the cooking, things like that, will that dial down some of that anxiety?So kind of really processing through all of that and trying to figure out, and also too, you know, I think a lot of us tend to treat the eating disorder from an abstinence-based approach, and that's not necessarily my philosophy. And so always trying to figure out, okay, what is the root of this? You know, what is the eating disorder giving us, you know, what is it telling us?What is it, what is it helping you navigate through? You know? And then are there alternative coping things that we can use?Laura: Yeah. So I think what you're, you're naming there is how oftentimes eating disorders manifest as a sort of byproduct of trauma oftentimes, and how, I mean, a, a major part of the reason that they develop is because they felt safe, like safety, they kept us safe in one way, shape or another. And so it's, it's almost kind of understanding, okay, the ways that, that this was helpful and protective at least initially, but how perhaps, you know now that the, the immediate danger has subsided, clinging onto an eating disorder is actually more harmful and destructive.Whitney: Yes.Laura: So what are the other ways of coping, of managing that are not destructive, that are helpful and, yeah, that allow us to have a, a, a quality of life that you know, an eating disorder just does not afford anyone. Is that fair? Is that-Whitney: Yeah, absolutely.Laura: -a decent summary?Whitney: Beautifully said Laura: And I hear from a lot of parents maybe kind of early on in terms of feeding their kids. So when it comes up to the point that they're introducing solids and like in the UK we call that weening. I know that's a different thing in the US, but at the point that they're introducing solids and how that can for people with an eating disorder can be really a really triggering phase of parenting. And I'm curious to hear if you've come across this with any of your clients or had conversations with folks about this and what your thoughts are.Whitney: It can be so triggering. It can be triggering, you know, there's so much of the body that can be triggering that we don't talk about, right? So if you are pregnant and you lose your baby, you will still lactate. You know, you will, your, your milk will still come in which can be so triggering. Um, I also have a lot of expertise and experience working with sexual assault victims, and so definitely wanna do a, a trigger warning on that.But the breastfeeding can be particularly triggering if there was a traumatic, anything traumatizing to the breast. And so really kind of going through that as well. Body image, you know, our body changes so much. And that postpartum, you know, pregnancy and that postpartum, I like to think of postpartum as a year.And so that postpartum,Laura: I'm two and a half years out and I'm still saying I'm postpartum.Whitney: I, you know, yeah, I, it makes me so mad.Laura: You're always postpartum, right,Whitney: Yes. Laura: after you've had a baby?Whitney: You are. You are never, yeah, you are never the same, right? You are never the same. I love that. I love that. So I think all of that really needs to be taken into consideration as well. And then the weaning part. So what we, what I've done before in the past is have met with the partners and have really developed a plan for kind of that postpartum in the perinatal phase and, you know, during pregnancy as well.And really have, having the partner be kind of the eyes and ears. And so then it takes, it kind of takes a pressure off because we want our partner also to be involved with the, with the, you know, we call it baby led weaning too, and, and solid sometimes. Different verbiage, but meaning the same thing. So how can we get the partner involved? Sometimes I'll have parents take pictures too of like, okay, like, what do you think? And then also work with the pediatrician as well. I think it's really, really important that we work with a pediatrician just to make sure that baby is, you know, adequately growing.Particularly too, I've always been so curious of this, of, you know, you and I share similar experiences with the, the trauma of NICU and, and latching. But when you have an eating disorder, particularly in such a vulnerable space and time, how does that affect milk supply? How does that affect latching? Different things like that. If there's a co-occurring mood disorder, right? So how is that showing up as well? And so really just trying to hold space for all of the variables while providing, you know, as much support and how the person wants support. I'm also a nurse and so I work with a lot of nurses that have eating disorders and some of them are like, okay, Whitney, give me like, I just need cognitive things. Like, tell me what to do. I need cognitive resources. I always like to ask like, how do you want to receive information, you know, as well.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And, I think like one thing that I just wanna point out that I've heard from, from parents with eating disorders as well, is that actually sometimes seeing your child have this like real innate embodied wisdom around food and knowing exactly what to do can be so healing for a parent with an eating disorder as well. Like that can really be like, wow, here's this almost role model in a sense of how to have an intuitive relationship with food.Whitney: Yes. And it's almost like reparenting, they get a chance of kind of like to reparent or, or sometimes I like to, maybe not reparent is the best word, but like renourish their inner child. Like they get to reclaim some of that as they're going through the process of, you know, watching the baby-led weaning.And so I try to do things to like make it fun. I, and you know, some parents will side-eye me, but like, also like if your kid is doing chicken nuggets and peas and, mac and cheese, eat chicken nuggets, peas and mac and cheese with them, you know, eat some of those kid foods that maybe.Laura: Oh my God. This is not like, if any parent listening in on this podcast side eyed you for that, then I would put them out personally, because we don't judge or shame food around here. But yeah. Sorry. Your point still stands though. Like get, get in there with them.Whitney: Yes. Make food messy. Make it fun. I've had so many parents be like, oh my goodness, you want me to do what? I'm like, yes, eat those things that you did not necessarily get to eat as a child. You know, because maybe, cuz sometimes too, you gotta think we're, we're dealing generational, right? There was the grandmother that had the eating disorder or the grandfather, which, or a close family member, which directly impacted how the parent, their relationship with food and body and that parent is like, okay, I really wanna break this generational cycle of disordered eating, eating disorder, and some of that is, it gets renourishing, the younger our, our younger inner child too.Laura: Yeah. And that's like a question that I was gonna ask you, you know, for parents who have their own eating disorder, who really are terrified of passing that onto their own kids. You've sort of named there that eating those fun, nostalgic childhood foods is something that they can do to help, like you say, end that intergenerational cycle of dieting, disordered eating, eating disorders. But I'm wondering if there's anything else that you would offer to parents to help, you know, put their mind at ease in terms of, you know, passing on an eating disorder.Whitney: Yeah, you know, we know that there is a genetic vulnerability. It's, you know, we can actually in the bio psychosocial model, like the biology, the psychology, the social environment, and I think the social environment really is key, right? Is how are we creating these safe spaces for you and family members when it comes to eating? And I think too, like taking the pressure off of eating, you know, food is so many different things. It's cultural, it's celebratory you know, it can be, you know, different religions have different food, uh, preferences and things as well. But we can also make it fun. And that's the thing too, is like, I don't think a lot of kids and adolescents are like wanting parents to cook these gourmet meals and make sure they have the salmon, twiced baked potatoes, right? Like, I couldn't, I, I remember some of those things I grew up eating right, but I don't remember every mealtime. But I do remember the, like how I felt as a kid getting to be in that space with my parents. So that's what I tell the parents that I'm working with is how do we create just that safe space where you get to just be with your kid for those 20, 30 minutes. Right? Especially the teenagers, right. I have a lot of parents that are parenting teenagers and it's like just, you know, such a chaotic time. Right?Laura: Yeah.Whitney: So I'm like, go through the drive through. Go through the drive through, turn off the radio, and y'all talk, you know, maybe have 20 minutes a day where there's no stimulation, if you can and just talk and, and see how they're doing. That's the kind of stuff that they remember, you know.Laura: I, yeah. I love that so much. You know, my next question was going to be about sort of the influence of social media in terms of like our, in influencing us to feed our kids perfectly. And as you were saying that, like, I wish that you turned that into like a post for social media. Like take your kids to the fucking drive-through , just go.Whitney: Just go through the drive through. It amazes me, like, yeah, it amazes me. Just like you said, I'm gonna make that a post. That's a great idea. Laura: Do it. Please do it. Because like not only is it subversive in and of itself, but like coming from a dietician who works in eating disorders, like, just like we need that, I'm, I'm working on a piece at the moment, for my newsletter about clean eating and orthorexia and how that is then transmitted to kids and like the fallout on children like, Whitney, I found a case study of a six month old baby. I'm actually gonna cry. A six month old baby who was being fed a homemade formula of sea moss and hemp seed, no supplementation. This child had hypocalcemia, was admitted to hospital with seizures and had rickets. A six month old baby in like, this is like a couple of years ago, right. And so this, yeah, I'm, I guess, You know, we, we all want our kids to be well-nourished, like you were saying at the beginning. Right. That's like, that's a, that's like a, it's a fundamental job of a parent, right? To make sure your kid has like enough to eat and like gets all their, all their nutrition and at the same time, all the, like the fearmongering, the scaremongering around nutrition, around, you know, the quote unquote obesity epidemic. It's driving parents to, and I'm not blaming any individual parent here cuz it's a systemic issue, but it's, you know, promoting a way of eating that is so dangerous for children.Whitney: Yeah.Laura: Anyway, sorry, that was like a major tangent because I've been thinking about it and I find it so disturbing and upsetting. But even in my own practice, I see it happen on like a, not such an acute level, but see the fallout of kind of like this of like healthy eating and clean eating and yeah, this strive for perfection in feeding our kids.Whitney: Yes. And well, and you bring up such a good point too, is I've actually had the parent, the mom, and the, and again, kind of speaking more generally, the mom ended up realizing she had a problem because the kid's teacher was like, you're not packing enough food.Laura: Okay. Yeah.Whitney: So that's when she was like, my relationship, I'm passing on these traits and behaviors. Like I'm, I'm, I'm so, my relationship with food is so distorted that now I'm not even packing enough for my kid. And so even teachers just really, you know, and I'm so grateful. My daughter's kindergarten teacher actually has a son who is in recovery. And so she is so aligned with positive reinforcement. I mean, and like, you know, I told at the beginning, we pack the same lunch. My kid has had the same exact school lunch for three years. I mean, that's, you know, and so I, I just had an honest conversation with her. I was like, you're gonna see the same thing. You know, I, I would love it if she would eat through the line, if she sees something, if she ends up having two lunches, I please support her in that. I want her, you know, we give her free room to try the school lunch if she wants, but we always pack her lunch on field trips. And so, but even teachers, right? Teachers and educators, if we can get them really plugged in on some of these things because you're right, it's, you know, early childhood is such an important time for kids. But it can be so anxiety provoking for parents who are really struggling and are trying to figure out, how do I live with this and it's taking over my life and I don't pass it on.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, it just, I have all the compassion in the world for parents who are in recovery from an eating disorder and, and then having to navigate that layer of feeding their kid. I think it's difficult enough feeding a child with the pressures and expectations that we get from social media anyway without having that layer of, of an eating disorder as well.It's so tricky and like you were sort of suggesting before, there are so many pressure points in terms of conception, pregnancy, baby loss. Infertility is another one. And then the actual, you know, birth and if, if, if it's a traumatic birth in that early postnatal period, and then you go from all of that to then having to, to, to, you know, pick up the reins with baby led weaning or, or whatever else, you know, whatever approach that you're taking. And it just all can be so tricky.Whitney: Yes.Laura: And there's just, there, I feel like there's a lack of anyone having conversations about these things and even less support for these things.Whitney: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Laura: I'm just wondering if, if there's anything that you wanted to add about either navigating feeding kids with an eating disorder or kind of the influence of diet culture, and you know what the like mom influencer culture for want of better word on how we feed our kids and kind of what you are seeing in your clinical practice.Whitney: Yeah. Well you brought up a really good point earlier. We're seeing a lot in the land of orthorexia and so, you know, something I've said before in the past of, uh, clients that I'm like, okay, we, we want to really work on the embodiment. We really wanna work on the variety if we can. The consistent nourishment, you know, without. without engaging orthorexia if we can. And what I mean by that is sometimes there's a tendency, I, I very much treat eating disorders on the spectrum. And so what tends to happen is maybe one, maybe one behavior dials down, but then there's this intense fear anxiety that ramps up and then kind of that obsession with the clean eating, or I don't wanna have like, you know, another co-occurring disease with this. And it's like that hyper fixation emerges. And so really talking about that in a very, just like, non-chain based way. But I definitely see the influence, like you said. I love, I love what you said, the mom culture of this like clean eating smoothie, like whole foods kind of like obsession, which feels so elitist to me. It feels very elitist. Laura: It is because, I mean, this is something I think a lot about is the not only the time, the money, the energy, I don't know. There's so much additional labor that goes into producing that, but it's all hidden, right? Nobody talks about the fact that like, you need someone else to look after your kids while you're doing this right, or you know, the, the labor, like where does that labor fall? Who does that fall on, that labor? And the fact that like it's, you know, it's not necessary from a nutrition perspective, right? You could get like a yogurt drink or a store bought smoothie if that's, you know, available to you. That a lot of what we see on social media is really about aesthetics rather than about nutrition. And I don't know if you know, is it, is it Casey, is it Davis from, from Struggle Care? I don't know if you know that account on social media. I think I've, I've spoken about this before. But she, so she talks about this in terms of your home and, like what's functional versus what is kind of like an aesthetic in terms of your home. And she talks about it through like, through the lens of like laundry. A lot of the times, you know how people have these like pristine laundry rooms and like laundry is kind of a hobby for some people, but that's not necessary in order to have like clean clothes that don't stink, right? You don't like, what is an essential function is like sorting your laundry, putting it in the machine and then like putting it away or putting it in a pile that is, you know, accessible to you. Right. And it's the same thing with feeding, right? This like, I don't even know what the cool, like, super foods are right now, but like the berry nourishing whole foods smoothie.Whitney: Yes,Laura: Like, sure. Give your kids, like, my kid loves berries. My kid would like eat their entire body weight in berries, but I'm not like making a fresh smoothie every morning for him, I'm like throwing some on a tray and being like, here you go.Whitney: Yes, and it's ending up on the wall, on the floor. The fingers are blue. AbsolutelyLaura: So, yeah, and, and I think that that's like a really helpful way to, for us to frame things that we see on social media, like, is this, is this, uh, is this functional or is this an aesthetic? Right. More, more, more often than not on social media, it's an aesthetic, it's a hobby. It's not like a fundamental requirement for feeding our children.Whitney: That's so good. Gosh, I love, okay, it's called struggling. What's the account called? Laura: Struggle Care. Whitney: Struggle Care. That is the most beautiful like metaphor that I have heard in such a while. Like that is,Laura: It's so good. And she did a podcast with you know, like that 10% Happier podcast?Whitney: Yes. Yes.Laura: And she said in that, that she was inspired by like the anti-diet movement to talk about this. She's a therapist. But she kind of took like a lot of the teachings of like the anti diet, like body and body autonomy, and movements like that, and kind of like translated it into home care. So it makes a lot of sense because there are a lot of parallels in terms of like giving yourself permission for your house to be messy. Because what matters is that it's functional and it works for you. Similarly, like eating in a way that works for you rather than all these prescribed rules that diet culture teaches us. I mean, she articulates it a bit better than that, but like, yeah, that's her kind of general,Whitney: I love that so much. I feel like this podcast time was like for me today because I love this so much.Laura: Yeah, she's got, she's got a book. I haven't read it, but I need to get, I need to get on that because yeah, it's clearly she's got a lot of wisdom to share that I think like yeah, we can take for our, you know, to talk about yeah, to, in, in terms of how we can like give ourselves permission to feed our kids in a way that is functional rather than adhering to someone else's unrealistic standards and ideals, which is more about aesthetics than it is about nutrition. Okay.So I'm, I'm curious to know if there's anything else that you wanted to add to that, or if you feel like we've, likeWhitney: I feel like we've talked so about so many things. I love it. I feel like, yeah, so many things today, so far.Laura: Well, given that we have covered a lot of ground, there are, so there are two things that I ask at the end of every episode, and the first thing is that I would love to hear who or what is nourishing you right now.Whitney: Gosh, that's such a good question. So my partner is fabulous and just cannot speak the like enough amazing things. So my partner has been so amazing. Does a lot of the early morning routine , I'm notLaura: Love to see it.Whitney: Yes, I was a night shift nurse for years, and so I, just mornings are still hard for me, so definitely my partner has, has stepped up and I've been getting a lot of nourishment just from a lot of colleagues, you know. I just came back from New York. We were at A Project Heal which is an eating disorder nonprofit in New York City. And so it just felt so nice to be in space with people, you know, I just had really been craving that likeminded people, and so that was just so, just refreshing, like just for my soul, just to be, you know, so many people that I had met honestly over Instagram, right? Like most of the people there I had met and connected with over Instagram. So it was just so nice just to like be in space with them for the first time. So I loved that.Laura: Yeah. Especially like, I don't know how you feel, but if it just feels like, we're still sort of almost in this lockdown mentality of like not really being physically together a lot of times. And a lot of stuff is still like professional stuff is still online, which is great because it makes it really accessible, but at the same time you still miss out on that connection.So yeah. I was watch, I saw some of your stories and posts and stuff from New York and I was like, oh, you looked like you were having the best time.Whitney: It was so fun.Laura: And New York is such a fun city to be in. So yeah, it was like coming across for sure.Whitney: Yeah, I told my, I was telling my husband, I was like, I really wanna go back and take our little one when she's a little older, cuz it's so magical this time of year. And I didn't know that. Like I just, I, you know, I've never been to New York City like, you know, in holiday season and so it is just, it was so, it was cold, but it,Laura: I was just about to say, that's my like memory of New York in like November, December is it's fucking freezingWhitney: It is. It is.Laura: But also spectacular, so yeah. Yeah. Oh, well thank you for sharing that. And then the last, the last question that I have for you is what are you snacking on right now? So, at the end of every episode, my guests and I share something that they've been really into, something that they've been enjoying. Basically a recommendation that you have for the listeners.Whitney: Okay. So I am one of these people that I like to try seasonal things, so I've been trying a lot of mocktails. And we love donuts in our house. So I'm, I, yeah, I, we like love, like, donuts, coffee, chocolate milk, all the things. So I've been trying to do coffee mocktails with like a pastry each morning because it's kind of chilly here, but I just love warmth, just warm things. So that's what I've been doing a lot lately.Laura: So when you're saying a, like a coffee mocktail, is it warm or is it like a, oh, my. Okay. I feel like you need to give a bit more explanation here because like when you said mocktail, I thought you meant like, like an espresso martini, but,Whitney: Yes. So you could do that without the, which. Okay, so how I am, I could drink an espresso martini every day or Bailey's and so I love like a Bailey's Peppermint or like a Bailey liqueor but obviously, you know, at, uh, Laura: It's not, not totally advisable, right?Whitney: I've been doing the hot coffee and I've been exploring with like doing like, so this one dessert that I love to make is, it's cool whip, but I put, uh, okay, so I make, I melt chocolate chips and white chocolate, and then cocoa powder, whip that, let it cool. And then I fold that into like, cool whip or icing, let it freeze. So I'll put that in my hot coffee, let it melt, and then I'll do like a peppermint or a lavender, like simple, like a, a simple syrup thing.Laura: Oh wow.Whitney: And then I'll decorate that with like, and then I'll put more like, whipped cream on top, and I'll decorate that with like, uh, cinnamon or nutmeg or like pecan sprinkle, something like that.Laura: You are doing this for breakfast, like on a weekday.Whitney: Yeah. Yeah.Laura: Oh my God. I can like barely get some oatmeal on the table. That's impressive.Whitney: Yeah, just so I'm, I just finished my semester, so the school year is just so hectic for us because I'm in clinic, I'm getting my, I'm finishing my degree to be a psychiatric nurse practitioner, and so I usually was in clinic like 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM Tuesday, Wednesday, Laura: Uh,Whitney: So I just finished last week. I was in New York taking exams and so I had three weeks off. So I'm just gonna enjoy and do this.Laura: Okay. So your, yeah. Okay. This is a hobby for you. Then, you've got a little bit of extra time. It's luxurious. You're leaning into the seasonal mocktail drink situation. It sounds amazing. I would love to be at your house for breakfast,Whitney: Gosh. I wish I could make you one. I wish I could make you,Laura: I will take a recipe for one. If you have one to share. I will put it in the links.Whitney: Okay. Okay. I'll have to send you some recipes. So I love drinks, like I love beverages, it's so funny you said the word luxury. I made a mood board. Do you know, like Delina Soto, Nutrition Tea? Okay. So we're all like close friends, all met from Instagram, and we have this like nutrition chat. And so Clara was like, let's do a mood board. And so we all zoomed one night with our beverages and Canva. And did these like online mood boards, which were like, amazing. But like my word was luxury. And I was like, I'm really embracing that end of 2022, 2023,Laura: I love it. I love it. Channeling it for the new year. Clara was on Season One of the podcast, so yes. Yay. Yeah. She is known to us. Yeah, she's great. And yeah, I totally love that luxurious energy that you're bringing into 2023. All right, so real quick, my thing that I've been snacking on, so there is this like little brand in the UK I think it's like an independent female owned clothing brand. And they used to do a lot of kid stuff, but now they're doing grownup stuff, but it's still super cute and funky. And I just bought - I've linked to it in a newsletter, but I'll link to it again in this episode - just like a plain t-shirt, but it's got a cereal box, like a little drawing on the front and it's super cute. I just put it in my stories so you can go check that out afterwards. Whitney: Definitely will. Laura: But yeah, it's by Cub & Pudding and just like the cotton is super soft and it's like, you know, just like comfy on my body. I have no idea how I'm gonna wear it yet, but we're recording this before Christmas, even though it will come out afterwards. And yeah, it was like a little Christmas treat to myself. Whitney: I love that. Laura: And it just like is very on brand for me, so loving it. Whitney, it was such a pleasure to chat to you. And I wondered if you could please share where people can find you and, and hear more about your work.Whitney: Yes. Thank you so much for offering that. So my website is www.whitneytrotter.com. And then my Instagram, which I'm probably most accessible through is @whitneytrotter.rd.Laura: And I'll link to all of that in the show notes so people can find you. But this was such a lovely conversation. So thanks for being here. And yeah, everyone go and check Whitney out.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Thank you for tuning in for another episode of Life's Best Medicine. Laura Buchanan and Matt Calkins are a husband and wife team with a mission and a passion to help as many people as possible age successfully. Laura earned her M.D. from the University of Florida and holds a B.Sc. in biomedical sciences. Matt is an emergency medicine resident who loves  studying the science of longevity, the optimization of all phases of health, and applying his knowledge to physician and patient wellness. Matt earned his M.D. from the University of Florida and holds a B.Sc. in physics. In their conversation, Brian, Matt, and Laura talk about how each of them came to realize the power of the low-carb diet, the many benefits of the direct primary care model of healthcare for both doctors and patients, how to motivate and empower patients to take control of their own health, how the predominate health care model in the United States could be better described as a sick care model, how the low-carb/keto diet and the DPC model might be able to make more of a breakthrough into the mainstream, the power of lifestyle/dietary intervention for mental health and mood, the difficulties involved in going through residency, and physician-burnout statistics. Life's Best Medicine According to Matt: “I get a lot of fulfillment out of leaving things in a better state than I found them—even if it's incremental. That's why I like primary care. You don't have to change someone's lifestyle all in one day, but we can really be fulfilled in the small day-to-day changes that patients make.” Life's Best Medicine According to Laura: “It's the relationships—the people in my life. That's family, first and foremost, friends, even patients, and the people you encounter on a regular basis. All of those relationships make me excited to be alive. And if I can help make their lives better too then that is a win-win.” Thank you for listening. Have a blessed day and stay healthy!   Links:   Drs. Laura Buchanan and Matt Calkins: Twitter Website Aging Successfully Dr. Tro's Direct Primary Care   Dr. Brian Lenzkes:  Website Low Carb MD Podcast   Simply Snackin'

Alright folks, here it is! The final episode of Season 1 of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast (keep an eye out for Season 2 in the new year!) - and we're ending with a bang! This week I'm chatting to Katie Greenall, theatre maker, writer, and performer of the award-winning autobiographical solo show ‘Fatty Fat Fat'. We speak all about Embodiment and disconnection from our body, and discuss how we can handle a funky body image day. They also give us the inside scoop on their upcoming show ‘Blubber'.Find out more about Katie here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here's the transcript in full:Katie: I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass-shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat, queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.INTRO:Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter.Today I'm sharing the last episode of Season One of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. I'll be back in January with ten brand-new episodes with some incredible guests. And in the meantime you can follow along on the Can I Have Another Snack? Substack where I'm gonna be sharing some really cool features over the holiday period including my emo kid Christmas playlist, an anti-diet gift guide, and some guest holiday pieces from Kristen Scher and Virgie Tovar. You're not going to want to miss them, they're seriously great and I can't wait to share them with you. So make sure that you're signed up to receive those posts at laurathomas.substack.comAlright team, I am so pumped to introduce you to today's guest. Katie Greenall is someone whose work I've followed for a long time, and I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation.For those of you who don't know Katie, they are a facilitator, theatre maker and writer living in London. She makes autobiographical work that often explores fatness, queerness, and community alongside making work with young people and communities across London. Previously, Katie performed her award-winning autobiographical solo show, Fatty, Fat, Fat and is currently developing their new show Blubber, which we're gonna talk about in this episode. We're also gonna talk about embodiment and feeling disconnected from our bodies, and how Katie handles a funky body image day. Before we get to Katie, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely reader-supported. We don't have sponsors or do adverts or anything like that. I don't make money from affiliate links. I'm not trying to sell you anything that you don't need. All I ask is that if you value the space and the community that we're building, then please consider becoming a paid subscriber.Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Yes, you get perks and bonuses and all of that great stuff. But more than that, you make this work sustainable and accessible for everyone. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's unaffordable for you just now, please email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with the word snacks in the subject line, and we will hook you up with a comp subscription. No questions asked. Also consider gifting a subscription to one of your pals this holiday season, or getting someone to gift it to you. Alright, team, let's get to our last guest of the season, Katie Greenall.MAIN EPISODE:Laura: All right, Katie, can you tell us who or what you are nourishing right now?Katie: I love this question. I would like to think that especially this week, I am nourishing myself. I am really trying to form some new habits this week. I've had a bit of a, I'd say a few big few months of lots of different things, particularly work-wise. And so this week I'm really focusing on building some new habits and just like getting my shit together a little bit.And so, I've really been finding that really nourishing for me. Uh, so I would say top of the list, I'm nourishing myself. That isn't usually the case. That's usually, if I'm being really honest and reflective, that self and nourishment is usually much further down. But I'm really kind of stepping into that this week, which is why having this conversation with you feels like really beautifully timed because, um, yeah, I genuinely for the first time in a long time feel like I'm doing some nourishing of myself.Laura: It sounds like that's kind of unfamiliar to you.Katie: Hmm. Yeah.Laura: I guess I have two questions on that. Like one is what, you know, what is difficult about that for you usually, secondly, you know, what is that, that self nourishment looking like for you at the moment.Katie: I think it's difficult for a number of reasons. It's difficult because, one, I work a lot, um, So a big part of my job is facilitating and holding space for other people. Um, predominantly that's working with young people in different theater settings. Like I run lots of young companies, I work in schools, or with other, in other community settings.So like my literal job is holding space for other people, um, maybe similarly to yourself, uh, or in a, kinda, in a very different way. But that idea of, of a big part of what I do is holding and hopefully nourishing other people, nourishing artists or, um, yeah, like young people, to be able to achieve what they want to achieve, to access new skills and stuff like that.And so often when I get that, a lot of that work happens in evenings and at weekends. And so just stuff like eating meals and going to bed and having any sense of routine, which is something that is really important to me, just gets pushed further and further and down the list. And the more, you know, it was just definitely not revolutionary, but like the more tired you get, the more you feel like you're, it's harder and harder to keep hold of any of those things. So that's one thing. I think secondly is that I've been taught I shouldn't be taking care of myself. That like I, that me and my fat body don't deserve care. And sometimes that is really hard to challenge. Sometimes it's really hard to have the extra energy or capacity to be like, Oh, not only am I gonna give myself the care or the nourishment, Which I think is such a beautiful word, but not, not only am I going to do that, but I'm also, that takes energy in itself. I also have to take the next level of energy, which is to do that in spite of a structure that is trying to stop me from doing that. And so it's really hard and I've spent a long time knowing that, now I've come to realise, understand more about fat liberation and the capitalist structure and diet culture and all of those things, the more I've realised I can't and don't want to go back to having, having those thought cycles. Sometimes I don't have the power or the capacity or the strength to, to challenge them. And so I exist in this sort of no man's land instead. And so yeah, it feels really nice to be able to have the capacity, and time and resource to be able to kind of apply that nourishment to to myself.Laura: Yeah, that's a really, um, there's something quite striking in what you've just said, you know, and I think a lot of us experience this from time to time, like intellectually understanding that we are being oppressed by systems that, you know, that don't care about our lives or don't care about our wellbeing, that only find value in us if we are producing and conforming and looking a certain way and et cetera, et cetera. And, and, and, you know, wanting to, you know, placing value in rejecting those systems. And also there's still being a huge barrier to overcome to access self care, to access self nourishment, to care for ourselves and, and sort of, I don't know, I'm just imagining this kind of liminal space, this no man's land that you were talking about, and I find that a lot of us probably feel stuck in that place quite often.Katie: Yeah, because there's a real resistance, like I'm, I'm resistant to regressing into this, this space that I, you know, I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.Laura: Yeah.Katie: I'd have glimmers of it and then be like, but it was so hard to hold onto, and I thought the only way that I could hold onto them more was, was to not be fat anymore.Laura: Yeah.Katie: And so I just, I utterly refute. I completely resist, going back to thinking like that. And so I would much rather sit in this no man's land space. But that being said, it's really difficult and it's meant that I have felt increasingly disconnected to my body in a way because I am reframing it as something that like, doesn't define my existence, or doesn't define my ability to achieve happiness or success or love or any of those things. The multitude of those. But I can't always work out how to achieve them. And so it's really challenging. And so it's felt like it's easier to sort of build some space between me and my body, rather than live that under fear of going back to a place that I don't wanna.Laura: Yeah. So many little, little threads that I want to tug on there. I suppose what I'm thinking about is just this, like the energy required to subvert the system and just say, No, I'm out When still existing and living within those structures, within the, those confines and, and all of the, you know, I suppose what we're talking to is this idea that yes, we can cognitively understand anti-fat bias or racism or capitalism or whatever structure that we're, we're naming, which they're all the same thing really. Let, let's face it, um, that, that, that is the issue, but still not, you know, we still need resources to be able to survive in those systems. And, you know, if we, you know, the less access we have to those resources, the harder our lives are. And so, you know, we can yeah, label something as anti-fat bias, but it still doesn't stop the system from, you know, perpetrating anti-fat bias whenever we need to go to the doctor or buy clothes or fly in an airplane or just, you know, walk down the street.Katie: And I think, you know, there is also a huge privilege in being able to decide when or when I do or don't want to engage with my body. And obviously sometimes I don't have a choice, um, often when then someone else enters my space and, um, Kind of those micro-aggressions or macro-aggressions, either from other people or structure, whether that's like societal structure or like the physical parameters of my space i.e. When I can't help but feel an arm of the chair digging into my side. Like, there are sometimes where I can't help but be faced with that. But I think, you know, it is a privilege to be able in my day to day life, to the moments when I can, to be able to choose whether or not I want to engage with my, with those things each, each day.And I, and I don't take that for granted. I don't necessarily find it easy, but I, I don't, I don't take those for granted. And that was because I am white and, middle class and, not disabled, and, and multitude of other things. But, um, it's really difficult and I guess when I'm making work about my body, I'm opting in to engage with it. And think that's probably why making work about my body is so important to me because I think it's a way for me to opt in and to also in like, to a great extent. I mean, it could definitely be better, but like I've also been paid to do it um, you know, I'm being paid for the labor of, of opting in to engage with those things, as I say, not a lot. And certainly I'm not being paid for every moment that I'm like going through that. But that's why I think it's really important when I'm making work about my body that, that I do make work about my body because otherwise, I, I wonder how much of my life I would just not, not feel embodied.Laura: But it, it's, it's so interesting, like I, I was just thinking as you were talking here about this idea of, you know, no man's land, being in this liminal space with your body and, like it sounds as though for you disconnection, disembodiment is, is a choice almost. And, or maybe that's not quite the right way of, of framing it, cuz I think that's maybe too simplistic a way to describe it. But really what I'm trying to get at is that oftentimes disembodiment and, uh, disconnection, dissociation are, are labeled or framed as this really negative really, you know, maladaptive is the, the word that we would use like in in the body image lingo, right? Like from an academic perspective, Right. But what I'm hearing from you is that it's a survival mechanism. It's a coping mechanism.Katie: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, I think about choice is really interesting. Cause like I definitely don't think it's active choice. I don't get off each day and go, or each week and go like, I'm choosing toLaura: Disembody. Yeah. Yeah.Katie: Um, there's clearly something is, like something within me is making that choice or something that's happening to me.But yeah, it's a hundred percent a survival technique but it's not necessarily one I'm ashamed of. I think I'm, most days I am proud of my fat body and I'm proud that I'm surviving in it. I am proud that I am still fat in spite of it all, that I'm honouring what my body needs and how it wants to exist in this moment. And I will like, whatever it is that I have to do in order to maintain that in a way that like, makes it make sense for me is something that, I'm not going lean away from. And I, and I think I begin to touch on this a bit in, in the show that I'm in the process of making at the moment, Blubber, which is like, I think towards the end of the process of making my last show Fatty, Fat, Fat, I was saying the same thing, you know, as is the nature of things when you perform something a lot or you talk about something a lot or, repeat yourself a lot. I was taking up the same space over and over again, or having the same conversations with journalists or audiences. But I was saying all the right things, but I wasn't, I wasn't connecting to them in the same way. And that's what this show, what Blubber's kind of came rooted in, is finding a way to try and feel more embodied, um, trying to feel more connected to a body that I've, that I'm proud to exist in, I think. And I'm proud to, to nourish and I'm proud to take care of, and I'm proud that still exists. And so it feels, I really want to feel connected to it. In a tangible way. Laura: I just wanna take a step back for a second for people who maybe aren't familiar with your previous show, Fatty, Fat, Fat, could you maybe just like give a just a very quick synopsis and then just so we can contextualise this conversation versus what you were talking about in that show.Katie: Totally. So, Fatty Fat Fat was my first solo autobiographical show. I started making it in 2018 after I just graduated from drama school. Kind of came out of, uh, frustration that lots of people in big bodies who work in the kind of entertainment, theatre, performing arts industry come against, which is like, I wasn't fat enough in inverted commas to be the fat girl in inverted commas um, or thin enough to be the normal girl in inverted commas. And so sort of, there was no castings, there was no jobs, there was, I was the fat, funny friend, etc, etc. And so it came out of, of a want to make work, but not seeing myself or stories or people like me really, um, reflected or, or being cast for. So Fatty Fat Fat was a show based on a series of anecdotes from my life where my relationship with my body changed because of other people's interactions with it.So they span from the age of 5 to 22. And they were micro-aggressions, um, generally either from family, friends or strangers that kind of, yeah, informed my relationship with my body and those were intersected with more kind of poetic movement moments that were rooted in where I was at in that process, present day. And also some kind of interactive moments that were talking about the wider fat liberation and fat acceptance movement. It was my coming out as being fat, I'd never called myself fat before I made that show. It was very much fat activism 1 0 1, and it's, you know, doesn't take away from my pride in that show. But it was time to leave it behind and, and Blubber really picks up from there.Laura: And I wanted to, so I, yeah, I just thought it would be helpful to give that kind of background what that show was versus this, this new show where it, it feels like a, Yeah, like you said before, trying to feel more connected to your body whilst, as we described before, living in systems that want that, you know, benefit from you being disconnected and disembodied. So I'm curious to know and I, I wonder if this kind of connects into this question of, of nourishment that we were talking about at the beginning and, and finding ways to nourish yourself, and that even in and of itself, being subversive as a fat person. What does embodiment mean to you? What does it look like? What does it feel like? You know, like, like we said before, sometimes it's held up as being this, this gold standard way of being in your body. Right? But I don't know that that's necessarily always true, and, and so I'm, I'm curious to hear from you. Yeah. Just tell me all your thoughts on embodiment.Katie: On embodiment. I think the short answer is I don't know what embodiment looks like to me. I think what I'm trying to work out, um, is the shortest and simplest answer. I think that embodiment can look like lots of things. So there is a version of embodiment for me that is being on stage right, I am acutely aware of everything that me and my body are doing that, especially as a solo performer that it is, I'm responsible for everything that's happening in this space. I'm like, whatever I do or say is queuing the next light or sound. I'm having a relationship to the audience. Yeah, they might be looking around the room, but like they've paid money to be there, to be there and watch me, or listen, and so like those moments, I am aware of everything. Like you learn, and like actors training about like this duality, you have to have a sort of outward eye but also an inward eye. So like which is where like, you know, practices like method acting and stuff like that become where you are like fully character all the time become a little dangerous.Um, and so yeah, my training is very much thinking about like, and what I kind of continue to pass on when I'm working with other artists is like working both ways. So, Yes, I'm saying the lines and I'm in my character, but also I'm inside, I'm thinking, Oh, am I connecting to my diaphragm? Can someone hear me? Someone's just dropped a prop over there and I need to make sure I move that out of the way before the big dance number, or whatever it is. You've got to have this duality. And so there's something about embodiment in that moment where you're like, I need to be aware not only of everything that's happening to me, around me, but also what's happening inside of me. And, and I'm really responsible for, for that. And obviously I have team that I definitely couldn't do without the team that work alongside me. But in those moments, you know, you couldn't, can't help but feel embodied. And so for me, that's why live performance is so important rather than working in film or TV or recorded media is, is because that aliveness makes me feel alive in a way that I don't necessarily know how to replicate in other, in other spaces, which comes with other things because it also is terrifying, incredibly anxiety inducing and complicated. And so it's not just as easy as standing up and being like, Here we go. But there are moments of that where you kind, when you're able to move through the fear, and you're not doing the show for the first time or something. You're like, I'm here, I'm feeling this, I'm doing this, and we're doing it together And that feels exciting.Laura: There's something, I mean, I've, I've seen both shows and there is something very like visceral and immersive about your performances. Like you're in this relationship with the audience, you're having this dialogue, this conversation with them, and I think, yeah, the word that you used, was it like, did you say vital? Vitality?Katie: Yeah.Laura: Yeah. You can perceive that from sitting in the audience. So yeah, I can, I can see how that, that that is a moment of, of connection and that's something that I took from Blubber. We were kind of talking about this off mic before that, and, and I don't know that this is necessarily how you were framing things, but, but it's certainly how I interpreted the show was that there is not this big like crescendo moment where you like, make peace with your body and then it's just like, you know, happily ever after, from, from there on out, that there was this real sense of, of moments of joy and comfort and connection in our bodies. And I'm gonna ask you about one of them in just a second. But, um, yeah, like that they were just kind of like peppered all over the place. Almost if we, we go back to that analogy that you used before, where you moved from that no man's land, where your body just kind of almost doesn't exist in a, in a way to being fully immersed and in your body and connected to it in this really positive and vital way.Katie: Yeah, I think that's such a lovely way of putting it. And, and the show doesn't crescendo in the same way. We, we spent a long time thinking about that in development we were like, Oh, where does the crescendo happen? Cause when I initially wrote it, it had about four ones rather than big one. And I think, um, It's a separate conversation to be had about like Western storytelling and what we, what that's, where that's rooted in and, and, and why we feel we need that and blah, blah, blah. That is for a separate, a separate conversation. But I really hear you. And the show has those kind of pockets of, of joy and reflection in amongst stuff that's really knotty and difficult. I think there's something for me in, Fatty Fat Fat ends with the line, I want my body back. Right? And so I sort of imagine that Blubber picks up going, Okay, here you go, imagining someone is going, All right, well there you are, here's the keys, what are you gonna do about it? Like, what happens now? And, and I think that's why this conversation about knowing's life is really pertinent to me because it's like, cool, if someone puts me in the driver's seat of my own body, do I even know where the pedals are anymore? I really know what all the buttons do? Do I know what feels good or what doesn't? Like okay, so yeah, I've got the keys, but how do I take control? How do I drive on the open road with all, Like, how do I make it feel like convertible, uh, with my, you know, the sea air in my hair? Singing to a song. Like driving isn't like that. You might get pockets of that, but other times you're stuck in a traffic jam or you can't start, or you need maintenance, or it's just like you're using it from, gets from A to B. Laura: Yeah,Katie: And I, and I think Blubber is a little bit about reflecting on my body as a vehicle and the times where it works and it feels like it's mine and it feels like I'm in it and I'm, I'm driving it. And other times where it feels like I'm, I'm still learning what it can do and, and what feels safe and, and all of those things sit within the structure of whether or not they're possible or impossible, or I'm allowed in inverted commas or not allowed or, you know, all of those things then have a context that sits around them.Laura: I think it's so important to speak to the messiness, the stickiness, how complicated it is to have a body, because I feel otherwise we, we fall into the trap of presenting binaries around our bodies, like either love your body and always be completely grateful. You know, I've spoken a lot on this series in particular around having a baby and how we're presented with these that very either or options of like, well be grateful cuz your body did this miraculous thing. Right? Or, change your body and get it, you know, get your pre-baby body back or, you know, so these really, like, I want more options than that to, to feel about my body. And I want to have those moments of joy and connection and comfort in my body. And I also want to scream when I'm having those really difficult days in my body and feeling the, the clout of all of those systems that, that really crush us in a metaphorical sense.Katie: Yeah, totally. And I, and I think, I thought for a long time, particularly with Fatty Fat Fat and maybe less so with Blubber, but I think it's, if anything, it's just got deeper, is that like I thought I couldn't make a show about fatness until I was, until I loved my body, until I'd reached that absolute nirvana, um, and I was completely at peace and could run around naked and do a back flip and everyone see all my, you know warts and all and I'd be like, Oh, I don't care. And I thought I couldn't make a show about fatness until I'd felt like that, because I thought it was either where I was currently at or that space and there was nowhere in between.And it was when I kind of realised that there could be some spectrum of that that, that I realised that kind of allowed me to get myself permission to make, to make the work. And, and if anything, Blubber has just got deeper and messier in the complexities of that. And it's really difficult.And I remember we had a time in, uh, the development of the show earlier in the year, in January. We were doing some movement work and I felt really challenged by something and got quite emotional after we'd just done an exercise in the room and we were reflecting on it. And, and I remember sort of sharing with the team that like, I just felt really ugly, I felt like my body didn't look nice and I was having, you know, I'm making something, you know, It was an exercise. It was, it was nothing, like, we were just trying something out and, and I, and I suddenly became really aware of like, why did that find so difficult? Because I, I was like, Oh, Cause I'm, I'm emphasising things that I, that I don't want to, or I'm, I'm feeling, I'm feeling the, the ugliness of, of my body, not because it's fat, just because I'm putting myself in weird positions.I'm screwing myself up. I'm, I'm folding all my chins in, all in on themselves. And like, and like some, some days that stuff doesn't bother you. But like in that moment I was just like, it's all very well, like sharing a lot of yourself with an audience, but then sharing something with a room full of strangers that like is not a version of yourself that you would show it, you would want to show anyone. How, how do we hold those things? How do we hold that messiness and ugliness that we all hold, but in my body it means something so different. And me sharing that and giving that to you means something really different. And that was a really useful learning for me and just being like, Oh, that is a limit. I mean, we've always thought about that whenever we've been making work, but like there is a limit of things that, that I'm comfortable doing without putting myself in danger.Laura: Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. There's so much to think about there. And I suppose as, as you were talking about all of those parts of yourself that we're taught to conceal and hide and push down, and as, all I was thinking about is just this idea that those are all things that we've been taught to feel shame about.Shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. If your body looks, you know, if you have double chins or triple chins or you know, if, if, if you don't, you know, if you turn side on and you have a belly or all of these things, we only ever see these like flat one dimensional representations of bodies that have been, you know, through layers and layers and layers of modification that it's so shocking, it's so shocking to see a real body. In all three dimensions to taking up space. And that shouldn't be shocking, but what I'm hearing you say is that there's something really, really unsafe about, you know, putting your body in those positions.Katie: Because I think there's still stuff that I'm unlearning about, like palatable fatness and being, you know, there's so many people that have said it, you know, say it far more articulately than I will or can about like the, you know, good fatties and bad fatties and how we can navigate the cultures that exist and the, and the barriers in society by demonstrating that we can be feminine or beautiful or graceful or healthy or educated or whatever it is in order to kind of overcompensate, for this like big glaringly obvious thing, which is my fat body and or, or fat bodies generally. And I think there was something that I learned in that moment about like how, how deeply that goes still. And, you know, I don't mind making a fool of myself. I don't mind showing bits of myself in a way that maybe you know, 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago, I might have had more of a challenge with. I don't mind exposing myself. There's some video content in the show, which is like really zoomed in, uh, bits of my body where you see like my bitten fingernails or my, I've got lovely skin, I'm very lucky, but I always get a series of spots underneath one, my right. You know, it's just like, and those things are blown up really big for an audience to make it, you know, because my whole, to show my whole body can be a universe, right? And I don't think a version of me before that, before would've been able to cope with that.And there are things that I'm, that I'm willing to find the imperfections now. I'm willing to share those with the audience. But I'm, I think there is something about like, you know, that initially Blubber came from this idea of wanting to feel beautiful. I don't think I've ever felt beautiful. I still don't.And I think I wanted to make a beautiful show so that some people would watch it and be like, Wow, you are beautiful because you made beautiful work. I've, I've been lots of other things. I am lots of other things, but that's just not something I don't that word specifically I don't think I've ever felt that sensation.And so there was something in that moment of being like, I can be, I can not be that. I can be somewhere in the middle. I can go below the middle two. But I, like, I don't want to show all my deepest insecurities, difficulties, no matter how much I'm learning or challenging or understanding why I feel that way about myself.But like no wants to share the worst stuff with an audience. And I don't think it's fair to an audience either.Laura: I'm, I'm feeling quite emotional listening to you talk particularly about that, that sort of sequence that was projected up onto kind of this like really ethereal netty curtainy sort of situation because like I sitting in the audience found that completely breathtaking. That and the part where there's a lot of kind of like red light projected on you and it felt sort of like you were being held in this like womb. I don't know if that was the vibe you were going for.Katie: Yeah, definitely womb like, because it's, that's sort of inside the body of a whale, so um, womb, internal, all of that sort of stuff. Definitely.Laura: Yeah. Both of those things. Just, um, I don't know. There was something about that. Both of them felt very, very vulnerable, but there was something, so, I don't know that beautiful is the right word, because that feels kind of like that trivialises what it was.Katie: And I think that's why the show is less about beauty now because, I think as we went on it, like actually what it was, was about feeling. And I think as someone that's been socialised as a woman, I've been taught that beauty is the ultimate goal. And or the antidote to my fatness. And like, like so many, people who live in fat bodies, I was, you know, told a lot growing up, you would be so beautiful if you weren't fat. And like, I, again, we don't, there's a not unique experiences and, and there's so many conversations that are, have been had and are being had about like, you know, beautiful being be able to coexist with fatness. And I, and I look at, I, I feel so lucky and grateful that I look at fat bodies, other people's fat bodies now, and I, and I think they are beautiful. But I never felt that in myself and, and really and in reflection, I think it's because I want to feel sensation. And I think it goes back to our previous conversation about embodiment and disembodiment, is I felt like I just wasn't feeling anything either in or around my body or within my body because I was like, feeling was such a big part of who I was. Feeling huge emotions is such a big part of me, particularly being an artist. And I think I was just like making so much space between me and my body that I wasn't feeling any of those things. And so it wasn't really about beauty, it was about feeling held or feeling something monumental or extraordinary or new or astonishing or even awful or trying or terrifying. But like between the onslaught of news, a pandemic, government crisis, a you know, everything else on top of experiencing the world in a, in a marginalised body that intersects different marginalisations, but obviously not all of them. You just, at some point there becomes a disconnect. And so, yeah, I really hear what you're saying about those things and I, and I see and agree with you. And so I think that's why the show wasn't about beauty anymore. It was about sensation, like just being able to feel and connect with something on my body.Laura: Yeah. And, and, and I suppose what you're naming there is also dissociation disconnection. That can be really powerful, really useful. I mean, life saving survivals tools. And they have a cost. They come with this, this huge price, which is, you know, not being able to sense or feel or emote these, you know, these things that you know, to, to bring it back again to embodiment are really vital to you, you know, to feeling that aliveness, that connectedness, that humanness.Katie: Totally. And also to go back to your kind of your first question, nourishment, because it also meant that I wasn't nourishing my body, um, because I was so disconnected from it or disembodied that I wasn't feeding it properly, I wasn't nourishing it in the things it consumed in the media, wasn't nourishing it in, in loads of different ways because, because I wasn't connected enough with it to be able to empathise or to be able to understand what, what it needed. And so I think these things are all, all so connected. Because without that, without that embodiment, it's really hard to make offers of meaningful nourishment. I can kind of know to go to bed or know to eat some toast, but like, or know not to spend 10 hours on TikTok. sometimes, I mean all of those things also their placeLaura: But, But yeah, all of those things can like spending 10 hours on TikTok can be nourishing sometimes when you need But I think what you're speaking to is like the fine tuning of that. And knowing when, Yeah, it's 10 hours in TikTok versus, No, actually I need to like get outside or talk to a, another humanKatie: Or go to sleep. Do you know what I mean? Like, know when to say no. Know what my boundaries are. I've been really thinking about something that, Candice Brathwaite said online, in some point in the last few months about like, laziness and idleness and I think as a fat person you are told you are lazy and I've been called lazy as long as I can remember. And so I'm doing a lot of work at the moment with myself about what are things that I truly believe and what are things that I am thinking, what are things truly exist and what things have I been told? And cuz sometimes they are the, like, those things kind can coexist.And so there's the thing about laziness, I'm thinking at the moment. Cause I do think I'm naturally quite a lazy person. Like I could, I could easily sit on a sofa and, and not move for, for days. I, that's fine. Like I'm, I'm into it. I'm not, I'm not mad at, But part of me's like, is that true or is that just because I've been told that that's true.And I, and I'm something that Candice has said recently online was like about how, um, sometimes the best way to take care of yourself is, is to challenge those instincts.Laura: Mm.Katie: Actually for me, some of the best ways I used to take care of myself, and I'm still trying to work out what that looks like in present day, was kind of before pandemic, um, before 2020, cause the pandemic's still happening. But, um, before 2020 anyway of like, some of the best ways I used to take care of myself was actually saying yes and going out and doing things rather than saying no and staying in.Laura: Mm-hmm.Katie: Because I have chronic FOMO and I love being busy, I love getting my en you know, I get my energy from other people.I love living my life like that. And so there's a version of me now that's like, oh, is that still true? Or do I need to actually stay home and take care of myself or eat, not, you know, go to bed early or whatever, Or am I being lazy? And I, I, I'm really trying to connect with what is true about me. Um, and that's something I'm finding really difficult at the moment, but, I'm really trying to engage with, and I think, again, links to lots of things we've been talking about.Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. And I love, I love that kind of distinction that you made. Like is this something, what, Tell me again what it was. Is this something I'm thinking?Katie: Is this something I'm thinking I've been told or is true?Laura: Yes. Okay. Yeah, and I think that that's such a, a helpful way of, of reframing some of those, those thoughts and beliefs that come to our mind. And I have, I have such a visceral reaction to the word lazy because I like firmly believe that that is just a social construct designed to make us feel bad about rest.Well, on that note, the last question that I had for you, and, you know, given all of the complexities, um, you know, and the, the stuff that you're kind of really in process of, of figuring out at the moment, I would love to know who or what is nourishing you right now?Katie: First of all, my housemate has bought me a really delicious pan aux raisin from the coffee shop up the road, and it is sitting in a paper bag behind the door.Laura: It's waiting for you,Katie: behind meLaura: Your stomach, grumbling stomach knows it's there, it's ready.Katie: That is the thing that is about to nourish me and, um, and she is just, um, being proud of that. I think, the things are nourishing me is routine, trying to find structure and routine in my life.That's something that's really nourishing me at the moment. Something that is also nourishing me is really leaning into my deep love and interest in the Real Housewives, um, That is something that's deeply nourishing me at the moment. And being able to talk in depth with friends about that is really nourishing parts of me that I didn't know I needed.Laura: Okay. And you will not be surprised to learn that this is not the first time that this, that this has come up podcast this season.Katie: Wow.Laura: So I talked to Clara Nosek, aka Your Dietician BFF. Had a great conversation. Highly recommend go back and listening to that. And her, the thing that's nourishing her right now is reality tv, but very specifically Housewives,Katie: Great. So I'm a big reality fan, reality TV fan, but particularly Housewives. So, I could, like, even now, just the thought of being able about it, especially in a public forum is like really make me froth at the mouth. Um, some young people I work with, was working with, uh, like as the sort of present for the end of the project, they very sweetly got me a seal cuddly toy with some like gold hoop earrings and they um, called it the Real Housewife of Shepherd's Bush, which is where we were working together. So, yeah, that's something that's really nourishing me right now. Finding these pockets of sunlight. Um, hopefully if you are, if and when you're listening to this, you might be able to find one of those too, but I dunno, it seems like from behind you, you've got a lovely bit of sunshine, your side.But yeah, there's some beautiful kind of sunlight pouring into my windows and I've got this sort of glitter ball Laura: Is that what it is?Katie: globe.Laura: Oh, okay. I've seen these little like,Katie: Pockets, Yeah. There's, so every now and then my living room, um, if the light is at the right angle, makes these sort of spots of light appear. And so all of those things feel really nourishing, I think for one of the first times in my recent life, like my work isn't nourishing me, uh, at the moment and like I'm looking to other things to hold that with me, and I think that's really exciting.That doesn't mean. It's not satisfying or it's not, not doing what it needs to do or like, it just means it's not the sole focus of that, where that nourishment is coming from. And I feel really excited by the prospect of that and that feels quite new. And finally, I've got a, I'm going to see all being well, I'm going to see, um, Adele in Las Vegas next March. AndLaura: There was like a wry smile, and I was like, I'm desperate to know what it is.Katie: So currently all roads lead to Vegas and that is deeply nourishing me, cuz it's like the end of the winter. It just feels, it's not so far away that it feels impossible, but it feels tangible, but enough time to get excited. So like that is also something me. So like,Laura: focused, you're focused on getting there.Katie: so there's, there's a real mix and I think variety is a spice of life. You know, I'm a freelancer. I'm, although I've just said all that stuff about routine and structure, like, I feel excited when I'm bouncing around and doing multiple different things. And so, trying to find that balance, um, feels exciting and, hopefully nourishing as well.Laura: It's that, I don't know if this like speaks to your experience, but like I've seen a lot of people online and it like resonates with me as well. Like talk about that neurodivergent urge towards chaos, but needing routine and structure like the routine and structure being really helpful and useful, but being the exact opposite thing, like also feeling like suffocating at the same time.Katie: Absolutely.Laura: All right. Before we finish up this episode, I would love to know what you're snacking on. So it can be a literal snack if you want, although we've covered off the pan raises end, so check that box. But it can be a book, a podcast, a movie, a person, anything. So can you share what you're snacking on right now?Katie: I am snacking on, Oh, there's so many things I could say. I had something in mind but I'm changing my mind. I am snacking on, I'm really trying to, I'm gonna go for like a literal thing I'm snacking on.Laura: Go on.Katie: And I'm really reaching back into, um, like childhood foods, the foods that maybe I didn't have growing up or, thought I couldn't. And, and so I'm really leaning into like the cheese string, the fruit winder, the penguin, the Frosty cereal bar. Those are my, like ones of choice, but also, Primula, the cheeseLaura: My God. Yeah. Yeah.Katie: on Ritz crackers.Laura: my God. Love RitzKatie: That is, that is like a real peak school time snack that we used to have at, like, at the end of term.And so, yeah, it's, those are the things I'm stacking on at the moment, just like really trying to find that joy in those little snacks again. Those are the things that I'm loving.Laura: so funny you say that cause I was just in Scotland last week and my friend and I bought a pick and mix and I do not remember the last time I bought a pick and mix and I was just like, chomping on these cola bottles, like the sour sweets. It was amazing. So yeah, I'm right there with you with the like, nostalgic, nostalgic foods.Okay, so my thing is a book, I'm like halfway through reading it, which I'm always a bit like, can I really recommend a book when I'm not completely finished it? But like, I think I know enough to know that it's worth reading. And this is someone that I'm really hoping will come on the podcast next season, but, so the book is called Small Fires. And it's by Rebecca May Johnson. And she is the co-editor of Vittles, which is a great Substack. I really struggle to describe what it's about because basically throughout the course of the book, she cooks the same recipe over a thousand times. And she talks about, she talks about cooking and food through this, like political lens is kind of the only way that I can think, or like I can describe it. But she's talking about appetite and she's talking about how kind of, in the same way that you were talking about that, like duality between the artist and the audience.She's talking about like this sort of reciprocal relationship between a recipe and the person that's cooking it and the food, and it's just such a, like, mind blowing way to think about food and cooking and it's just really cool. I, you just need to read it. Maybe I'll link to like, about review in the show notes, but Yeah, so it's called Small Fires by Rebecca May Johnson and it's just like, it would make a great Christmas present for someone.So yeah, that's my snack. All right, Katie, tell us, tell the audience where they can find out more about you and your work.Katie: so you can find out more about me and my work on, um, my Instagram or Twitter, which is @katie_greenall on both, um, or my website, which is www.katiegreenall.com. Those are the best ways to find me.Laura: Perfect. And I will obviously link to all of that in the show notes. And yeah, I have really, really enjoyed this conversation. It's felt really nourishing. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how Blubber sort of evolves in the direction that you take it in. And as soon as you know when and where that's gonna be, I will be sharing about it and let the audience know where they can come and see that show.So, thank you so much for being here and being so candid and honest about your relationship with your body, your relationship with food, and yeah, just all the things that you've been thinking about. It's been really a great conversation. So thank you.Katie: It's been a joy. Thank you so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura Thomas: Thank you for listening to Season 1 of Can I Have Another Snack? If you've enjoyed these conversations, then please rate and review in iTunes and share these episodes with your friends. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This season wouldn't be possible without your support so thank you for being here and valuing my work and I will catch you in January, when we'll be back with a whole host of really cool guests exploring appetites, bodies, and identity. Talk to you then. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Episode SummaryLaura Michelle Powers is a celebrity psychic who has been featured by Will Ferrell's “Ron Burgundy Podcast”, Buzzfeed, NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, Motherboard Magazine by Vice, and many other media outlets. She is a clairvoyant, psychic medium, writer, actress, model, producer, writer, and creative entrepreneur. Today, Harry and Laura discuss her metaphysical and spiritual awakening, the capacity to channel psychic abilities and the connection between political science and astrology. Episode SponsorFocusrite –http://pcjk.es/focusrite ( )http://pcjk.es/vocaster (http://pcjk.es/vocaster) FullCast –https://fullcast.co/ ( https://fullcast.co/) Key Takeaways06:26 – Laura Michelle Powers joins the show to discuss her metaphysical, psychic, and spiritual awakening 12:56 – Mentors, milestones and a tool to help others 18:05 – Defining clairvoyant, medium, angel channeler, palm reader, and psychic 21:44 – Does everyone have the capacity to channel psychic abilities? 26:32 – Political science and Astrology 32:43 – The different dimensions of consciousness and best practices for following your intuition 37:42 – Laura's podcasting origin story 43:25 – The power of podcasting as a network-building tool 47:59 – Writing screenplays and growing as an interviewer 51:34 – I'm Ron Burgundy? 58:44 – The Hawkins Scale of Consciousness 59:53 – Laura's multiple ongoing projects 1:01:09 – Something Laura has changed her mind about recently and the most misunderstood thing about her 1:02:14 – Harry thanks Laura for joining the show and lets listeners know where they can go to connect with her and learn more about Healing Powers Tweetable Quotes“Ever since I was little, I saw and sensed things that other people apparently did not.” (10:51) (Laura) “I just use the general term ‘psychic' now because it's such a broad category. It just means receiving information from the non-physical realm.” (19:06) (Laura) “It's important not to judge. I don't expect people to have the beliefs that I have because they don't see the world the way that I do. They literally don't see ghosts and spirits. They don't see angels. And that's ok. You believe what you believe and as long as you don't attack me, we're good.” (26:14) (Laura) “I remember when I shifted from my 3D awareness into more expansion and I literally felt like I was dying inside; it's like having this ego death. It's often very intense for people. So, if you're going through that just know you're not alone and you will be ok.” (35:21) (Laura) “I also saw very quickly that podcasting was being recognized as major media. When I first started it wasn't, but it grew and it shifted.” (46:34) (Laura) “I also am a big believer in entertainment as an education tool. Sort of like ‘Edu-tainment.' I think there's really something to be said about joy, and laughter, and entertainment as a tool.” (56:27) (Laura) Resources MentionedLaura's Podcasts: Healing Powers – https://www.healingpowers.net/podcast (https://www.healingpowers.net/podcast) Powers Hour – https://www.powershour.biz/ (https://www.powershour.biz/) Behind The Scenes with Laura Powers – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behind-the-scenes/id1177268196 (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behind-the-scenes/id1177268196) Laura's LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-powers-846a005/ Healing Powers – https://www.healingpowers.net/ (https://www.healingpowers.net/) Healing Powers Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/realhealingpowers/ (https://www.facebook.com/realhealingpowers/) Healing Powers Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/laurapowers44/ (https://www.instagram.com/laurapowers44/) Healing Powers Twitter – https://twitter.com/ThatLauraPowers (https://twitter.com/ThatLauraPowers) Healing Powers YouTube Channel – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPjcygQR5iPMUTiwpHwUlnw (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPjcygQR5iPMUTiwpHwUlnw) The Ron Burgundy Podcast –...

Jewell is frustrated that his wife isn't being a better stepmother to his son. - Dr. Laura: "It's damaging for children to be around stepparents who don't care for them."Are you a stepparent? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Adam doesn't like how he is moved to tears whenever he sees examples of the loving relationships he has always longed for. - Dr. Laura: "It's OK to be moved by your emotions."What makes you emotional? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Oneda wonders if it's wrong for her to feel so ambivalent about the impending death of her abusive, mentally ill mother. - Dr. Laura: "It's difficult to be a good daughter to a bad mother."How is your relationship with your mother? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Although Lindsey would like her boyfriend to ask her family for her hand in marriage, she doesn't want to dictate to him how to propose. - Dr. Laura: "It's important for someone to let him know that the romance and respect of this tradition is meaningful to you."Did your husband ask your family's permission to marry you? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Steve thinks the way he dwells on his childhood memories of deceased relatives is unhealthy and is preventing him from living in the present. - Dr. Laura: "It's your turn to create beautiful memories for your family."What's your fondest childhood memory? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jennifer loves her husband and their life together but is unhappy that they never have sex due to his weight issues. - Dr. Laura: "It's harder to live without love and companionship than it is to live without sex."How important is sex to your marriage? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Joyce is happily married, but confused as to how she contracted HPV. - Dr. Laura: "It's time to calmly discuss the facts and next steps."What would you do if you contracted an STD while in a monogamous relationship? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Renee is sad that she and her son have grown distant since he started dating an older woman with five kids. - Dr. Laura: "It's not unusual for people to create what they wish they had had growing up."How's your relationship with your adult children? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Lisa and her husband want their 15-year-old son to get a part-time job for the summer and are dismayed that he is refusing. - Dr. Laura: "It's time to turn the parenting ship around so he can become a responsible adult."At what age did you get your first job? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Michelle angered her friend when she skipped a special event, and now she's wondering how to respond to her friend's angry text and subsequent apology. - Dr. Laura: "It's only an apology when you take responsibility for the act."Do you owe someone an apology? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Tyler and Marci are relocating and wonder whether it's a good idea to use Marci's sister as their real estate agent. - Dr. Laura: "It's generally a bad idea to mix personal family relationships with business needs."Have you ever regretted going into business with a family member? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Katherine has had four stepfathers and says she's not interested in consoling her mother over her latest husband's death. - Dr. Laura: "It's reasonable to feel annoyed, but there's no benefit to acting annoyed."How's your relationship with your mom? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Kim is wondering if it's time to ditch her friend of 35 years who's getting ruder with time. - Dr. Laura: "It's not wrong to minimize contact with inconsiderate people."Are you able to overlook a friend's bad behaviors? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dr. Laura welcomes Vanessa Grutman, Entrepreneur, Integrated Health Practitioner, and Co-Founder of Project Skin MD. Vanessa talks about her recent big cross-country move back to Québec with her family, and why she decided to follow her calling to not only relocate but connect deeply with Mother Nature.  She and Dr. Laura talk about the shift in feminine energy that is leading more women to follow their inner calling, and they provide some small steps for starting to connect with your inner wisdom if you feel like it's been quieted or shut down. Vanessa explains the importance of detoxing - both physically and energetically and how it's different from a cleanse. She also provides resources on how to join her online community and her 7-day seasonal detox that begins June 13th.   What You'll Hear In This Episode:   Vanessa talks about her decision to move back to Quebec, and how the pandemic created a space for stillness and contemplation that led her to really be called back to nature. Nature's wisdom is a powerful healer. Humans are designed by nature to be in synchronicity with our environment. The call to nature can happen in big, sweeping ways, but it can also happen in small ways. Start where you are. Even just going out for a daily walk can be a beginning point. Vanessa talks about what an Integrative Health Coach does, and how you may benefit from working with one. We are the sum of all our choices, whether they are high-quality ones that move us forward or ones that keep us stuck and held back. Detoxing is all about eliminating. If you are just adding things, you are just flooding your system back with what's been stored in your body. Vanessa shares why doing a seasonal detox can help you become in harmony with nature and your outside world and restore your liver. Vanessa talks about learning to have at least the same compassion for herself that she gave to others.   Quotes: “When we vibrate at a higher frequency, we are better humans. We are better citizens, we are better mothers, and we are better parents.” — Vanessa “With two young kids, we felt like we needed to slow down. It was just this deep calling that we had to listen to.” — Vanessa “You can't give from an empty vessel.” — Vanessa “I feel like it always starts with that awareness. The minute we realize we can be doing this a different way is the minute we open up the door to a new reality.” — Dr. Laura  “It's part doing, but it's also part being, it's who you're being in your life that often creates the most change.” — Dr. Laura  “The journey makes you who you are.” — Vanessa “Who you're surrounding yourself with is a form of medicine.” — Dr. Laura   Take Dr. Laura's Free Quiz! — What's your Divine Feminine Sovereign Style? This quiz will help to reveal your soul-guided sovereign style so that you can harness your feminine spark with more confidence and courage than ever before. The quiz is quick but the results are epic — potent, robust, and exactly what you'll need to harness your unique feminine style in a way you've never done before. Get ready to speak your truth, walk in your fire, and own your gifts like never before.   10-Week Signature Program for Women: ROOTS + The Sisterhood ROOTS will help you tap into your feminine superpowers and remember who you are, why you are here, and why it matters. This dynamic program walks through intuition, connecting with your inner knowing, healthy boundary-setting, personal core values, finding your voice, speaking your truth, expansion, self-compassion, identity, your future self, and the frequency of your rise. You were never meant to do this alone. Are you ready to do the best work of your life?   Sovereignty, Self-Compassion, and Standing In Your Personal Power. It's time to walk your path. Get on the WAITLIST here.   Continue On Your Journey: Soul Inspired Gurl / Instagram / Book A Coaching Discovery Call With Me   Vanessa: Website | Instagram   Join 7-day free detox starting June 13th. Sign up here: The DETOX Community: Vanessagrutman.com/detox-community   Vanessa Grutman BIO: Vanessa is an inspired leader and mom, passionate about all things health, entrepreneurship, nature, motherhood, and living your best life. Kinesiologist and Certified Integrated Health Practitioner, she's on a journey to elevate her vitality and invites her community to join her in doing the same. Through her own healing journey, she dedicated the last 15 years to bettering her and her family's health and as a result, has acquired an incredible amount of learning and non-traditional wisdom that she coaches on. She's the co-founder of Project Skin MD, a network of medical aesthetic clinics designed to help people age gracefully.

Should Jim and Bonnie pay for part of their son's wedding even though he is disappointing them by living with his fiancé and planning to change his last name to initials after marriage? - Dr. Laura: "It's unreasonable to expect you to do something traditional when they are snubbing tradition."What untraditional things has your child done? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dr. Laura starts the show by talking about the profound experience psychedelics and plant-based medicine have had on her life. She then welcomes facilitator and guide Reanna Costa to the episode. Reanna talks about her path to becoming a “midwife” in all senses of the word, where she helps people birth whatever it is they need to and helps let go of whatever is holding them back. She talks with Laura about creating a space for safety and trust in her work, how the ego can show up in our healing, why we need to move at our own pace, how to unwind and rewire the subtle layers of tension that keep us locked in old patterns and the effect plant-based medicine has on our brain.   What You'll Hear In This Episode: How trauma imprints on us and gets stuck in our bodies. Powerful ways to release trauma and get into an altered state of consciousness. How our ego gets in the way of our healing and why we don't want to push too hard when doing self-work. How Reanna defines trauma and how plant-based medicine can potentially help us get out of the story we tell ourselves and find new perspectives. Reanna talks about the way somatic therapy unwinds the stress and trauma response. Reanna shares the names of a few of the healers that have influenced her, such as Judith Blackstone. Healing is an inside job, yet we also need the help of others to get through it. Reanna explains the sacred nature behind the ceremonies she facilitates and what to potentially expect at a plant-based ceremony. Reanna and Dr. Laura dive into why sacred reciprocity is so important to receive life's blessings.   Quotes: “Trauma is essentially anything that we're not able to be present for.” — Reanna “There's so much of the human experience that is unprocessed.” — Reanna “Anything that has the power to heal also has the power to harm.” — Reanna “If someone's psyche or nervous system is not ready to move through something, there's a possibility of retraumatizing.” — Reanna “I feel that one of my gifts is patience: working slowly and having time for the person to gain trust.” — Reanna “When you're ready, your healer or teacher will present itself.” — Dr. Laura “It's such a habit to not be compassionate with self. It's such a habit to betray ourselves and turn away from ourselves.” — Dr. Laura   Take Dr. Laura's Free Quiz! — What's your Divine Feminine Sovereign Style? This quiz will help to reveal your soul-guided sovereign style so that you can harness your feminine spark with more confidence and courage than ever before. The quiz is quick but the results are epic — potent, robust, and exactly what you'll need to harness your unique feminine style in a way you've never done before. Get ready to speak your truth, walk in your fire, and own your gifts like never before.   10-Week Signature Program for Women: ROOTS + The Sisterhood ROOTS will help you tap into your feminine superpowers and remember who you are, why you are here, and why it matters. This dynamic program walks through intuition, connecting with your inner knowing, healthy boundary-setting, personal core values, finding your voice, speaking your truth, expansion, self-compassion, identity, your future self, and the frequency of your rise. You were never meant to do this alone. Are you ready to do the best work of your life?   Sovereignty, Self-Compassion, and Standing In Your Personal Power. It's time to walk your path. Get on the WAITLIST here.   Continue On Your Journey: Soul Inspired Gurl / Instagram / Book A Coaching Discovery Call With Me   Reanna Costa: Website | Instagram  

Although Cindy says her husband lies about money and was caught cheating, she wonders if it's morally correct for her to stay and try to work it out. - Dr. Laura: "It's one thing to make a mistake and another to not admit it and repair it."What are you willing to tolerate to avoid admitting a mistake? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

How do we develop a listening culture that helps us listen more effectively to create better relationships in our personal lives and at work? One way is through listening training using meta-cognitive strategies. Learning how to listen to our listening behaviors WHILE we are listening, so that we can grow and adjust for more impact. Laura Janusik helps individuals and teams better align their communication through the Power of Listening. She is considered a worldwide expert in teaching and training listening based on her 20+ years of being a scholar, researcher, teacher, and trainer. She is currently helping leaders in the private industry as well as ICF certified coaches. In this episode, Laura shares fascinating multicultural listening behaviors across the world and how this helps us lay the foundation to find common ground to understand each other, allowing for better communication. She also highlights that for change to happen and for diversity, equality, and inclusion to be truly felt, listening should be tied down to the organization's bottom line because that's when better results happen. She shares stories, research and strategies for leaders to develop a listening culture. "The better relationships we have with people are developed through better listening." - Laura Janusik   Listen IN Notes: 07:11 - Laura's listening program: I've got 12 different chapters. And each chapter is based on research, and it targets a different area.  09:39 - Fascinating perceptions on turn-taking and silence in other cultures 12:40 - The confusion that comes with intercultural communication behaviors 15:24 - Creating communication patterns that help us understand multicultural listening behaviors 17:32 - Important elements of listening: First, that listening is a habit. Second, a study found four dominant listening habits.  19:13 - Explaining the four dominant listening habits: Connective, Reflective, Analytical, Conceptual 22:33 - The blindspot that opened up for Laura with her analytical listening habit 23:29 - Laura's experience of the power of listening that had a huge impact on her 29:48 - Practicing listening in her work: working in leadership development with both individuals and leaders, or with leadership teams to develop listening cultures. 32:01 - Mindblowing listening experience: to see that other people could see different things and feel different things and understand different things while we were all looking in and experiencing something together.  34:45 - Laura shows interest in doing research on the metacognitive listening strategies 39:49 - Leaders need to understand listening: One of the most important things to recognize is that perception is reality.  41:31 - How leaders can support a listening environment: It really needs to come from the top down. Once we are better able to tie listening to the bottom line through the research, I think that we'll see a lot more organizations wanting to become listening-centric or listening-focused. 43:39 - The challenges facing the diversity, equality and inclusivity (DEI) movement 46:18 - Goal of communication versus the goal of listening 48:56 - Message of inspiration from Laura: It's never too late to become a better listener.  Key Takeaways: "That's what gets really confusing with intercultural communication because we use our own norms to judge whether the other person. And we then make so many incorrect assumptions of what's going on." - Laura Janusik "When you see how you're listening, you recognize what your blind spots are, what you haven't been listening for, and what you've been allowing to just strain through your strainer. And you begin to understand why other people on your team have very different interpretations than you do. Because they prefer a different listening habit." - Laura Janusik "The quality of listening determines the quality of relationships." - Laura Janusik "Whenever you're going to change a culture of listening, you have to start at the top." - Laura Janusik "It's irrelevant how good of a listener (leaders) think they are. Instead, we have to look at their direct reports and their colleagues, and how the leader is perceived by them, because that's how they're showing up as a listener." - Laura Janusik "I like to help leaders understand right off the bat HOW OTHERS perceive them is much more important than how they perceive themselves." - Laura Janusik Notes/Mentions: The Echo Listening Profile: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10904018.2019.1611433 The Listening Space: A New Path to Personal Discovery by Tamsin Hartley - https://www.amazon.com/Listening-Space-Path-Personal-Discovery/dp/0995785406 Connect with Laura Janusik: Website: https://www.listeningtochange.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoHQJLiTvAX7vHlj4p4AHMw Online course: https://laura-s-school-a5d9.thinkific.com/ Connect with Raquel Ark: www.listeningalchemy.com Mobile: + 491732340722 contact@listeningalchemy.com LinkedIn  

A business deal destroyed Steve's relationship with his best friend, and he can't get past losing such an important person in his life. - Dr. Laura: "It's OK to miss what's missing from your life."Would you go into business with a friend? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Cynthia and her husband do not agree on the proper way to parent their kids, and it's damaging their relationship. - Dr. Laura: "It's hard to be a good mother when the poor father you picked thwarts your parenting efforts."Are you and your spouse on the same parenting page? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Lacey calls back with an update after Dr. Laura previously offered advice on how to overcome her stage fright. - Dr. Laura: "It's inspiring when a person is able to reboot and change direction."Have you ever successfully changed your mindset about something you were struggling with? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Mary is a new mom who found texts between her husband and his co-worker that makes her suspect an affair. - Dr. Laura: "It's time for you to take back the power."What would you do if you found suspicious texts on your spouse's phone? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Kimberly discovered a sex tape on her husband's phone and wonders what she should do now. - Dr. Laura: "It's time to take responsibility for yourself and your children."Would you leave or try to work it out with a cheating spouse? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Is it right for Amy to fight for custody of her three grandchildren who've been neglected by Amy's drug-addicted daughter? - Dr. Laura: "It's never wrong to rescue children from abusive situations."Could you raise a relative's child? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Susan says she's concerned that her daughters are bickering and arguing because that's what they see their parents doing. - Dr. Laura: "It's more satisfying to be loved than perceived to be right."Which of your bad habits do you hope your children don't pick up? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.