Podcast appearances and mentions of lara hogan

This week we're bringing you a remaster of our epic 2021interview with Lara Hogan -- author of Resilient Management and management coach / trainer for the tech industry. The majority of our conversation focuses on the four primary hats leaders and managers end up wearing; mentoring, coaching, sponsoring, and delivering feedback. We also talk about knowing when you're ready to lead, empathy and compassion, and learning to lead.

This week we're bringing you a remaster of our epic 2021interview with Lara Hogan -- author of Resilient Management and management coach / trainer for the tech industry. The majority of our conversation focuses on the four primary hats leaders and managers end up wearing; mentoring, coaching, sponsoring, and delivering feedback. We also talk about knowing when you're ready to lead, empathy and compassion, and learning to lead.

For this episode we used a different format. Pilar and Tim spotted a question in a community they're members of, and with the permission of the poster, we've chosen to discuss it over coffee. This was the question: "Remote workers are faking enthusiasm. As a manager, I struggle to assess the motivation and engagement of my remote workers. Employees are very good are presenting a positive image during check-ins.This makes it very hard to identify issues and provide targeted interventions to improve productivity and job satisfaction. This makes me hesitant to allow working from home. I know that enthusiasm does not equal productivity. But I see lack of enthusiasm or faking enthusiasm as an early warning sign of quiet quitting. Do you have any advice?" 2:45 min Workers can fake enthusiasm in any environment, but it is easier to manage how you present yourself when your interaction is mostly online. 7:15 It sounds like this manager feels something might be going off track and that the disengagement is an early sign of it. 8:00 Does the manager need their team to feel engaged because it helps the manager feel good about their own performance? Or is it just about the team member's attitude and performance? 9:00 When we don't know what is happening our imagination fills in the gaps. Tim finds the reasons his brain makes up are much worse than the actual explanation. So he has to be careful about jumping to conclusions. 11:30 Having longer one-on-ones might make it harder for the person to fake their enthusiasm. And spending more time together can deepen the relationship. 14:20 Is there another space besides a one-on-one where the person can explain how they are feeling? 16:00 Lara Hogan has an excellent question for her first one-on-one meeting with someone: "How will I know when you're grumpy?". 17:45 When team context changes, like going remote or returning to working from an office, you almost have to treat it like a new team. 19:30 There is an underlying question about the workplace and culture where people are faking or suspected of faking: what is stopping people from behaving authentically?   What about you, dear listener? Have you managed people who were faking it? What did you do? We'd love to hear about your experiences or if you have a question you'd like us to chat about! Get in touch through our Contact Form https://managementcafepodcast.com/contact/  or tell us on Twitter - we are @managementcaf   

In this week's episode, our co-founders Darja and Anthony chatted with Meri Williams. Meri was the CTO at Monzo - the online bank - before it even became a bank! She led the technology team through a period of immense growth in both the team itself and in the customer base. Now as the CTO at Pleo, Meri is continuing to lead teams through different changes while enabling each team member to reach their full potential. Meri shared her key learnings on what it actually takes to create a healthy, safe, diverse and inclusive work environment, as well as why high-performing teams are the ones who are happy, and feel comfortable in their individual roles. Meri also discussed what she would do differently as a new CTO, some of her best principles for success and why sometimes hotdogs are the only thing you need to make your team happy. In this episode, you'll learn:Why management (especially in engineering) is a career change, not a promotion, and how can you succeed in itWhat it really takes to build a diverse and inclusive team: 3 questions you should ask yourselfWhat is the real difference between being nice vs. kind to your team and the impact it can haveWhy you shouldn't treat others like you would want to be treated. Rather treat them like they want to be treatedTimecodes:2:30 - the challenges of joining a growing startup as a CTO12:00 - purpose, autonomy, mastery, inclusion: the magic formula for high performance14:00 - the model for DEI: 3 questions you should ask32:00 - why management is a career change, not a promotion and how can you succeed in it41:00 - how to help people feel safe at work, enabling them to reach their potential: be nice AND kind51:00 - how to really be an empathetic person and leaderConnect with Meri:Twitter: https://twitter.com/Geek_ManagerLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meriwilliams/Connect with Anthony:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonyreo/Twitter: https://twitter.com/anthonyareoFollow Bunch:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bunchai/Twitter: https://twitter.com/bunch_HQOther helpful resources: Learn more about engineering leadership from Lara Hogan: https://larahogan.me/Learn more about being an Engineering Manager: https://nickmchardy.com/2019/02/on-being-an-engineering-manager.htmlThe home of engineering management: https://leaddev.com/Become a better leader in 2 minutes a day with BUNCH, the AI Leadership Coach. Download it for FREE on the App Store

We sat down with management coach Lara Hogan to chat about leading and supporting a team – from learning mentoring and coaching skills to mastering the delicate art of feedback. Read a transcript of the episode here: https://www.intercom.com/blog/podcasts/management-coach-lara-hogan-on-leadership/Listen to Lara's previous conversation on Inside Intercom when she joined us to talk about public speaking: https://www.intercom.com/blog/podcasts/etsy-engineering-director-lara-hogan-on-public-speaking/Lara's site: https://larahogan.me/Wherewithall courses: https://courses.wherewithall.com/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Managing Up Crew is joined by Estella Gonzalez Madison (@chicagoing) to discuss how they've changed the way they manage since the start of the pandemic 2+ years ago. They discuss tactical changes and how they've changed philosophically during this time, and how they square their own humanity and that of their teams during the last 2 years, as well as how this affects how they plan to manage in the future.Show Notes:Estella Gonzalez Madisonhttps://twitter.com/chicagoingTalking to your past self (humor)https://mymodernmet.com/julie-nolke-funny-viral-video/Rethinking Remote Standupshttps://www.honeycomb.io/blog/standup-meetings-are-dead/Lara Hogan's Manager Voltronhttps://larahogan.me/blog/manager-voltron/

Steph has a baby update and thoughts on movies, plus a question for Chris related to migrating Test Unit tests to RSpec. Chris watched a video from Google I/O where Chrome devs talked about a new feature called Page Transitions. He's also been working with a tool called Customer.io, an omnichannel communication whiz-bang adventure! Page transitions Overview (https://youtu.be/JCJUPJ_zDQ4) Using yield_self for composable ActiveRecord relations (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/using-yieldself-for-composable-activerecord-relations) A Case for Query Objects in Rails (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/a-case-for-query-objects-in-rails) Customer.io (https://customer.io/) Turning the database inside-out with Apache Samza | Confluent (https://www.confluent.io/blog/turning-the-database-inside-out-with-apache-samza/) Datomic (https://www.datomic.com/) About CRDTs • Conflict-free Replicated Data Types (https://crdt.tech/) Apache Kafka (https://kafka.apache.org/) Resilient Management | A book for new managers in tech (https://resilient-management.com/) Mixpanel: Product Analytics for Mobile, Web, & More (https://mixpanel.com/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: CHRIS: Golden roads are golden. Okay, everybody's got golden roads. You have golden roads, yes? That is what we're -- STEPH: Oh, I have golden roads, yes. [laughter] CHRIS: You might should inform that you've got golden roads, yeah. STEPH: Yeah, I don't know if I say might should as much but might could. I have been called out for that one a lot; I might could do that. CHRIS: [laughs] STEPH: That one just feels so natural to me than normal. Anytime someone calls it out, I'm like, yeah, what about it? [laughter] CHRIS: Do you want to fight? STEPH: Yeah, are we going to fight? CHRIS: I might could fight you. STEPH: I might could. I might should. [laughter] CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hey, Chris. I have a couple of fun updates. I have a baby Viccari update, so little baby weighs about two pounds now, two pounds. I'm 25 weeks along. So not that I actually know the exact weight, I'm using all those apps that estimate based on how far along you are, so around two pounds, which is novel. Oh, and then the other thing I'm excited to tell you about...I'm not sure how I should feel that I just got more excited about this other thing. I'm very excited about baby Viccari. But the other thing is there's a new Jurassic Park movie coming out, and I'm very excited. I think it's June 10th is when it comes out. And given how much we have sung that theme song to each other and make references to what a clever girl, I needed to share that with you. Maybe you already know, maybe you're already in the loop, but if you don't, it's coming. CHRIS: Yeah, the internet likes to yell things like that. Have you watched all of the most recent ones? There are like two, and I think this will be the third in the revisiting or whatever, the Jurassic World version or something like that. But have you watched the others? STEPH: I haven't seen all of them. So I've, of course, seen the first one. I saw the one that Chris Pratt was in, and now he's in the latest one. But I think I've missed...maybe there's like two in the middle there. I have not watched those. CHRIS: There are three in the original trilogy, and then there are three now in the new trilogy, which now it's ending, and they got everybody. STEPH: Oh, I'm behind. CHRIS: They got people from the first one, and they got the people from the second trilogy. They just got everybody, and that's exciting. You know, it's that thing where they tap into nostalgia, and they take advantage of us via it. But I'm fine. I'm here for it. STEPH: I'm here for it, especially for Jurassic Park. But then there's also a new Top Gun movie coming out, which, I'll be honest, I'm totally going to watch. But I really didn't remember the first one. I don't know that I've really ever watched the first Top Gun. So Tim, my partner, and I watched that recently, and it's such a bad movie. I'm going to say it; [laughs] it's a bad movie. CHRIS: I mean, I don't want to disagree, but the volleyball scene, come on, come on, the volleyball scene. [laughter] STEPH: I mean, I totally had a good time watching the movie. But the one part that I finally kept complaining about is because every time they showed the lead female character, I can't think of her character name or the actress's name, but they kept playing that song, Take My Breath Away. And I was like, can we just get past the song? [laughs] Because if you go back and watch that movie, I swear they play it like six different times. It was a lot. It was too much. So I moved it into bad movie category but bad movie totally worth watching, whatever category that is. CHRIS: Now I kind of want to revisit it. I feel like the drinking game writes itself. But at a minimum, anytime Take My Breath Away plays, yeah. Well, all right, good to know. [laughs] STEPH: Well, if you do that, let me know how many shots or beers you drink because I think it will be a fair amount. I think it will be more than five. CHRIS: Yeah, it involves a delicate calibration to get that right. I don't think it's the sort of thing you just freehand. It writes itself but also, you want someone who's tried it before you so that you're not like, oh no, it's every time they show a jet. That was too many. You can't drink that much while watching this movie. STEPH: Yeah, that would be death by Top Gun. CHRIS: But not the normal way, the different, indirect death by Top Gun. STEPH: I don't know what the normal way is. [laughs] CHRIS: Like getting shot down by a Top Gun pilot. [laughter] STEPH: Yeah, that makes sense. [laughs] CHRIS: You know, the dogfighting in the plane. STEPH: The actual, yeah, going to war away. Just sitting on your couch and you drink too much poison away, yeah, that one. All right, that got weird. Moving on, [laughs] there's a new Jurassic Park movie. We're going to land on that note. And in the more technical world, I've got a couple of things on my mind. One of them is I have a question for you. I'm very excited to run this by you because I could use a friend in helping me decide what to do. So I am still on that journey where I am migrating Test::Unit test over to RSpec. And as I'm going through, it's going pretty well, but it's a little complicated because some of the Test::Unit tests have different setup than, say, the RSpec do. They might run different scripts beforehand where they're loading data. That's perhaps a different topic, but that's happening. And so that has changed a few things. But then overall, I've just been really just porting everything over, like, hey, if it exists in the Test::Unit, let's just bring it to RSpec, and then I'm going to change these asserts to expects and really not make any changes from there. But as I'm doing that, I'm seeing areas that I want to improve and things that I want to clear up, even if it's just extracting a variable name. Or, as I'm moving some of these over in Test::Unit, it's not clear to me exactly what the test is about. Like, it looks more like a method name in the way that the test is being described, but the actual behavior isn't clear to me as if I were writing this in RSpec, I think it would have more of a clear description. Maybe that's not specific to the actual testing framework. That might just be how these tests are set up. But I'm at that point where I'm questioning should I keep going in terms of where I am just copying everything over from Test::Unit and then moving it over to RSpec? Because ultimately, that is the goal, to migrate over. Or should I also include some time to then go back and clean up and try to add some clarity, maybe extract some variable names, see if I can reduce some lets, maybe even reduce some of the test helpers that I'm bringing over? How much cleanup should be involved, zero, lots? I don't know. I don't know what that...[laughs] I'm sure there's a middle ground in there somewhere. But I'm having trouble discerning for myself what's the right amount because this feels like one of those areas where if I don't do any cleanup, I'm not coming back to it, like, that's just the truth. So it's either now, or I have no idea when and maybe never. CHRIS: I'll be honest, the first thing that came to mind in this most recent time that you mentioned this is, did we consider just deleting these tests entirely? Is that on...like, there are very few of them, right? Like, are they even providing enough value? So that was question one, which let me pause to see what your thoughts there were. [chuckles] STEPH: I don't know if we specifically talked about that on the mic, but yes, that has been considered. And the team that owns those tests has said, "No, please don't delete them. We do get value from them." So we can port them over to RSpec, but we don't have time to port them over to RSpec. So we just need to keep letting them go on. But yet, not porting them conflicts with my goal of then trying to speed up CI. And so it'd be nice to collapse these Test::Unit tests over to RSpec because then that would bring our CI build down by several meaningful minutes. And also, it would reduce some of the complexity in the CI setup. CHRIS: Gotcha. Okay, so now, having set that aside, I always ask the first question of like, can you just put Derek Prior's phone number on the webpage and call it an app? Is that the MVP of this app? No? Okay, all right, we have to build more. But yeah, I think to answer it and in a general way of trying to answer a broader set of questions here... I think this falls into a category of like if you find yourself having to move around some code, if that code is just comfortably running and the main thing you need to do is just to get it ported over to RSpec, I would probably do as little other work as possible. With the one consideration that if you find yourself needing to deeply load up the context of these tests like actually understand them in order to do the porting, then I would probably take advantage of that context because it's hard to get your head into a given piece of code, test or otherwise. And so if you're in there and you're like, well, now that I'm here, I can definitely see that we could rearrange some stuff and just definitively make it better, if you get to that place, I would consider it. But if this ends up being mostly a pretty rote transformation like you said, asserts become expects, and lets get switched around, you know, that sort of stuff, if it's a very mechanical process of getting done, I would probably say very minimal. But again, if there is that, like, you know what? I had to understand the test in order to port them anyway, so while I'm here, let me take advantage of that, that's probably the thing that I would consider. But if not that, then I would say even though it's messy and whatnot and your inclination would be to clean it, I would say leave it roughly as is. That's my guess or how I would approach it. STEPH: Yeah, I love that. I love how you pointed out, like, did you build up the context? Because you're right, in a lot of these test cases, I'm not, or I'm trying really hard to not build up context. I'm trying very hard to just move them over and, if I have to, mainly to find test descriptions. That's the main area I'm struggling to...how can I more explicitly state what this test does so the next person reading this will have more comprehension than I do? But otherwise, I'm trying hard to not have any real context around it. And that's such a good point because that's often...when someone else is in the middle of something, and they're deciding whether to include that cleanup or refactor or improvement, one of my suggestions is like, hey, we've got the context now. Let's go with it. But if you've built up very little context, then that's not a really good catalyst or reason to then dig in deeper and apply that cleanup. That's super helpful. Thank you. That will help reinforce what I'm going to do, which is exactly let's migrate RSpec and not worry about cleanup, which feels terrible; I'm just going to say that into the world. But it also feels like the right thing to do. CHRIS: Well, I'm happy to have helped. And I share the like, and it feels terrible. I want to do the right thing, but sometimes you got to pick a battle sort of thing. STEPH: Cool. Well, that's a huge help to me. What's going on in your world? CHRIS: What's going on in my world? I watched a great video the other day from the Google I/O. I think it's an event; I'm not actually sure, conference or something like that. But it was some Google Chrome developers talking about a new feature that's coming to the platform called Page Transitions. And I've kept an eye on this for a while, but it seems like it's more real. Like, I think they put out an RFC or an initial sort of set of ideas a while back. And the web community was like, "Oh, that's not going to work out so well." So they went back to the drawing board, revisited. I've actually implemented in Chrome Canary a version of the API. And then, in the video that I watched, which we'll include a show notes link to, they demoed the functionality of the Page Transitions API and showed what you can do. And it's super cool. It allows for the sort of animations that you see in a lot of native mobile apps where you're looking at a ListView, you click on one of the items, and it grows to fill the whole screen. And now you're on the detail screen for that item that you were looking at. But there was this very continuous animated transition that allows you to keep context in your head and all of those sorts of nice things. And this just really helps to bridge that gap between, like, the web often lags behind the native mobile platforms in terms of the experiences that we can build. So it was really interesting to see what they've been able to pull off. The demo is a pretty short video, but it shows a couple of different variations of what you can build with it. And I was like, yeah, these look like cool native app transitions, really nifty. One thing that's very interesting is the actual implementation of this. So it's like you have one version of the page, and then you transition to a new version of the page, and in doing so, you want to animate between them. And the way that they do it is they have the first version of the page. They take a screenshot of it like the browser engine takes a screenshot of it. And then they put that picture on top of the actual browser page. Then they do the same thing with the next version of the page that they're going to transition to. And then they crossfade, like, change the opacity and size and whatnot between the two different images, and then you're there. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm sorry, what now? You did which? I'm like, is this the genius solution that actually makes this work and is performant? And I wonder if there are trade-offs. Like, do you lose interactivity between those because you've got some images that are just on the screen? And what is that like? But as they were going through it, I was just like, wait, I'm sorry, you did what? This is either the best idea I've ever heard, or I'm not so sure about this. STEPH: That's fascinating. You had me with the first part in terms of they take a screenshot of the page that you're leaving. I'm like, yeah, that's a great idea. And then talking about taking a picture of the other page because then you have to load it but not show it to the user that it's loaded. And then take a picture of it, and then show them the picture of the loaded page. But then actually, like you said, then crossfade and then bring in the real functionality. I am...what am I? [laughter] CHRIS: What am I actually? STEPH: [laughs] What am I? I'm shocked. I'm surprised that that is so performant. Because yeah, I also wouldn't have thought of that, or I would have immediately have thought like, there's no way that's going to be performant enough. But that's fascinating. CHRIS: For me, performance seems more manageable, but it's the like, what are you trading off for that? Because that sounds like a hack. That sounds like the sort of thing I would recommend if we need to get an MVP out next week. And I'm like, what if we just tried this? Listen, it's got some trade-offs. So I'm really interested to see are those trade-offs present? Because it's the browser engine. It's, you know, the low-level platform that's actually managing this. And there are some nice hooks that allow you to control it. And at a CSS level, you can manage it and use keyframe animations to control the transition more directly. There's a JavaScript API to instrument the sequencing of things. And so it's giving you the right primitives and the right hooks. And the fact that the implementation happens to use pictures or screenshots, to use a slightly different word, it's like, okey dokey, that's what we're doing. Sounds fun. So I'm super interested because the functionality is deeply, deeply interesting to me. Svelte actually has a version of this, the crossfade utility, but you have to still really think about how do you sequence between the two pages and how do you do the connective tissue there? And then Svelte will manage it for you if you do all the right stuff. But the wiring up is somewhat complicated. So having this in the browser engine is really interesting to me. But yeah, pictures. STEPH: This is one of those ideas where I can't decide if this was someone who is very new to the team and new to the idea and was like, "Have we considered screenshots? Have we considered pictures?" Or if this is like the uber senior person on the team that was like, "Yeah, this will totally work with screenshots." I can't decide where in that range this idea falls, which I think makes me love it even more. Because it's very straightforward of like, hey, what if we just tried this? And it's working, so cool, cool, cool. CHRIS: There's a fantastic meme that's been making the rounds where it's a bell curve, and it's like, early in your career, middle of your career, late in your career. And so early in your career, you're like, everything in one file, all lines of code that's just where they go. And then in the middle of your career, you're like, no, no, no, we need different concerns, and files, and organizational structures. And then end of your career...and this was coming up in reference to the TypeScript team seems to have just thrown everything into one file. And it's the thing that they've migrated to over time. And so they have this many, many line file that is basically the TypeScript engine all in one file. And so it was a joke of like, they definitely know what they're doing with programming. They're not just starting last week sort of thing. And so it's this funny arc that certain things can go through. So I think that's an excellent summary there [laughs] of like, I think it was folks who have thought about this really hard. But I kind of hope it was someone who was just like, "I'm new here. But have we thought about pictures? What about pictures?" I also am a little worried that I just deeply misunderstood [laughs] the representation but glossed over it in the video, and I'm like, that sounds interesting. So hopefully, I'm not just wildly off base here. [laughs] But nonetheless, the functionality looks very interesting. STEPH: That would be a hilarious tweet. You know, I've been waiting for that moment where I've said something that I understood into the mic and someone on Twitter just being like, well, good try, but... [laughs] CHRIS: We had a couple of minutes where we tried to figure out what the opposite of ranting was, and we came up with pranting and made up a word instead of going with praising or raving. No, that's what it is, raving. [laughs] STEPH: No, raving. I will never forget now, raving. [laughs] CHRIS: So, I mean, we've done this before. STEPH: That's true. Although they were nice, I don't think they tweeted. I think they sent in an email. They were like, "Hey, friends." [laughter] CHRIS: Actually, we got a handful of emails on that. [laughter] STEPH: Did you know the English language? CHRIS: Thank you, kind Bikeshed audience, for not shaming us in public. I mean, feel free if you feel like it. [laughs] But one other thing that came up in this video, though, is the speaker was describing single-page apps are very common, and you want to have animated transitions and this and that. And I was like, single-page app, okay, fine. I don't like the terminology but whatever. I would like us to call it the client-side app or client-side routing or something else. But the fact that it's a single page is just a technical consideration that no user would call it that. Users are like; I go to the web app. I like that it has URLs. Those seem different to me. Anyway, this is my hill. I'm going to die on it. But then the speaker in the video, in contrast to single-page app referenced multi-page app, and I was like, oh, come on, come on. I get it. Like, yes, there are just balls of JavaScript that you can download on the internet and have a dynamic graphics editor. But I think almost all good things on the web should have URLs, and that's what I would call the multiple pages. But again, that's just me griping about some stuff. And to name it, I don't think I'm just griping for griping sake. Like, again, I like to think about things from the user perspective, and the URL being so important. And having worked with plenty of apps that are implemented in JavaScript and don't take the URL or the idea that we can have different routable resources seriously and everything is just one URL, that's a failure mode in my mind. We missed an opportunity here. So I think I'm saying a useful thing here and not just complaining on the internet. But with that, I will stop complaining on the internet and send it back over to you. What else is new in your world, Steph? STEPH: I do remember the first time that you griped about it, and you were griping about URLs. And there was a part of me that was like, what is he talking about? [laughter] And then over time, I was like, oh, I get it now as I started actually working more in that world. But it took me a little bit to really appreciate that gripe and where you're coming from. And I agree; I think you're coming from a reasonable place, not that I'm biased at all as your co-host, but you know. CHRIS: I really like the honest summary that you're giving of, like, honestly, the first time you said this, I let you go for a while, but I did not know what you were talking about. [laughs] And I was like, okay, good data point. I'm going to store that one away and think about it a bunch. But that's fine. I'm glad you're now hanging out with me still. [laughter] STEPH: Don't do that. Don't think about it a bunch. [laughs] Let's see, oh, something else that's going on in my world. I had a really fun pairing session with another thoughtboter where we were digging into query objects and essentially extracting some logic out of an ActiveRecord model and then giving that behavior its own space and elevated namespace in a query object. And one of the questions or one of the things that came up that we needed to incorporate was optional filters. So say if you are searching for a pizza place that's nearby and you provide a city, but you don't provide what's the optional zip code, then we want to make sure that we don't apply the zip code in the where clause because then you would return all the pizza places that have a nil zip code, and that's just not what you want. So we need to respect the fact that not all the filters need to be applied. And there are a couple of ways to go about it. And it was a fun journey to see the different ways that we could structure it. So one of the really good starting points is captured in a blog post by Derek Prior, which we'll include a link to in the show notes, and it's using yield_self for composable ActiveRecord relations. But essentially, it starts out with an example where it shows that you're assigning a value to then the result of an if statement. So it's like, hey, if the zip code is present, then let's filter by zip code; if not, then just give us back the original relation. And then you can just keep building on it from there. And then there's a really nice implementation that Derek built on that then uses yield_self to pass the relation through, which then provides a really nice readability for as you are then stepping through each filter and which one should and shouldn't be applied. And now there's another blog post, and this one's written by Thiago Silva, A Case for Query Objects in Rails. And this one highlighted an approach that I haven't used before. And I initially had some mixed feelings about it. But this approach uses the extending method, which is a method that's on ActiveRecord query methods. And it's used to extend the scope with additional methods. You can either do this by providing the name of a module or by providing a block. It's only going to apply to that instance or to that specific scope when you're using it. So it's not going to be like you're running an include or something like that where all instances are going to now have access to these methods. So by using that method, extending, then you can create a module that says, "Hey, I want to create this by zip code filter that will then check if we have a zip code, let's apply it, if not, return the relation. And it also creates a really pretty chaining experience of like, here's my original class name. Let's extend with these specific scopes, and then we can say by zip code, by pizza topping, whatever else it is that we're looking to filter by. And I was initially...I saw the extending, and it made me nervous because I was like, oh, what all does this apply to? And is it going to impact anything outside of this class? But the more I've looked at it, the more I really like it. So I think you've seen this blog post too. And I'm curious, what are your thoughts about this? CHRIS: I did see this blog post come through. I follow that thoughtbot blog real close because it turns out some of the best writing on the internet is on there. But I saw this...also, as an aside, I like that we've got two Derek Prior references in one episode. Let's see if we can go for three before the end. But one thing that did stand out to me in it is I have historically avoided scopes using scope like ActiveRecord macro thing. It's a class method, but like, it's magic. It does magic. And a while ago, class methods and scopes became roughly equivalent, not exactly equivalent, but close enough. And for me, I want to use methods because I know stuff about methods. I know about default arguments. And I know about all of these different subtleties because they're just methods at the end of the day, whereas scopes are special; they have certain behavior. And I've never really known of the behavior beyond the fact that they get implemented in a different way. And so I was never really sold on them. And they're different enough from methods, and I know methods well. So I'm like, let's use the normal stuff where we can. The one thing that's really interesting, though, is the returning nil that was mentioned in this blog post. If you return nil in a scope, it will handle that for you. Whereas all of my query objects have a like, well, if this thing applies, then scope dot or relation dot where blah, blah, blah, else return relation unchanged. And the fact that that natively exists within scope is interesting enough to make me reconsider my stance on scopes versus class methods. I think I'm still doing class method. But it is an interesting consideration that I was unaware of before. STEPH: Yeah, it's an interesting point. I hadn't really considered as much whether I'm defining a class-level method versus a scope in this particular case. And I also didn't realize that scopes handle that nil case for you. That was one of the other things that I learned by reading through this blog post. I was like, oh, that is a nicety. Like, that is something that I get for free. So I agree. I think this is one of those things that I like enough that I'd really like to try it out more and then see how it goes and start to incorporate it into my process. Because this feels like one of those common areas of where I get to it, and I'm like, how do I do this again? And yield_self was just complicated enough in terms of then using the fancy method method to then be able to call the method that I want that I was like, I don't remember how to do this. I had to look it up each time. But including this module with extending and then being able to use scopes that way feels like something that would be intuitive for me that then I could just pick up and run with each time. CHRIS: If it helps, you can use then instead of yield_self because we did upgrade our Ruby a while back to have that change. But I don't think that actually solves the thing that you're describing. I'd have liked the ampersand method and then simple method name magic incantation that is part of the thing that Derek wrote up. I do use it when I write query objects, but I have to think about it or look it up each time and be like, how do I do that? All right, that's how I do that. STEPH: Yeah, that's one of the things that I really appreciate is how often folks will go back and update blog posts, or they will add an addition to them to say, "Hey, there's something new that came out that then is still relevant to this topic." So then you can read through it and see the latest and the greatest. It's a really nice touch to a number of our blog posts. But yeah, that's what was on my mind regarding query objects. What else is going on in your world? CHRIS: I have this growing feeling that I don't quite know what to do with. I think I've talked about it across some of our conversations in the world of observability. But broadly, I'm starting to like...I feel like my brain has shifted, and I now see the world slightly differently, and I can't go back. But I also don't know how to stick the landing and complete this transition in my brain. So it's basically everything's an event stream; this feels true. That's life. The arrow of time goes in one direction as far as I understand it. And I'm now starting to see it manifest in the code that we're writing. Like, we have code to log things, and we have places where we want to log more intentionally. Then occasionally, we send stuff off to Sentry. And Sentry tells us when there are errors, that's great. But in a lot of places, we have both. Like, we will warn about something happening, and we'll send that to the logs because we want to have that in the logs, which is basically the whole history of what's happened. But we also have it in Sentry, but Sentry's version is just this expanded version that has a bunch more data about the user, and things, and the browser that they were in. But they're two variations on the same event. And then similarly, analytics is this, like, third leg of well, this thing happened, and we want to know about it in the context. And what's been really interesting is we're working with a tool called Customer.io, which is an omnichannel communication whiz-bang adventure. For us, it does email, SMS, and push notifications. And it's integrated into our segment pipeline, so events flow in, events and users essentially. So we have those two different primitives within it. And then within it, we can say like, when a user does X, then send them an email with this copy. As an aside, Customer.io is a fantastic platform. I'm super-duper impressed. We went through a search for a tool like it, and we ended up on a lot of sales demos with folks that were like, hey, so yeah, starting point is $25,000 per year. And, you know, we can talk about it, but it's only going to go up from there when we talk about it, just to be clear. And it's a year minimum contract, and you're going to love it. And we're like, you do have impressive platforms, but okay, that's a bunch. And then, we found Customer.io, and it's month-by-month pricing. And it had a surprisingly complete feature set. So overall, I've been super impressed with Customer.io and everything that they've afforded. But now that I'm seeing it, I kind of want to move everything into that world where like, Customer.io allows non-engineer team members to interact with that event stream and then make things happen. And that's what we're doing all the time. But I'm at that point where I think I see the thing that I want, but I have no idea how to get there. And it might not even be tractable either. There's the wonderful Turning the Database Inside Out talk, which describes how everything is an event stream. And what if we actually were to structure things that way and do materialized views on top of it? And the actual UI that you're looking at is a materialized view on top of the database, which is a materialized view on top of that event stream. So I'm mostly in this, like, I want to figure this out. I want to start to unify all this stuff. And analytics pipes to one tool that gets a version of this event stream, and our logs are just another, and our error system is another variation on it. But they're all sort of sampling from that one event stream. But I have no idea how to do that. And then when you have a database, then you're like, well, that's also just a static representation of a point in time, which is the opposite of an event stream. So what do you do there? So there are folks out there that are doing good thinking on this. So I'm going to keep my ear to the ground and try and see what's everybody thinking on this front? But I can't shake the feeling that there's something here that I'm missing that I want to stitch together. STEPH: I'm intrigued on how to take this further because everything you're saying resonates in terms of having these event streams that you're working with. But yet, I can't mentally replace that with the existing model that I have in my mind of where there are still certain ideas of records or things that exist in the world. And I want to encapsulate the data and store that in the database. And maybe I look it up based on when it happens; maybe I don't. Maybe I'm looking it up by something completely different. So yeah, I'm also intrigued by your thoughts, but I'm also not sure where to take it. Who are some of the folks that are doing some of the thinking in this area that you're interested in, or where might you look next? CHRIS: There's the Kafka world of we have an event log, and then we're processing on top of that, and we're building stream processing engines as the core. They seem to be closest to the Turning the Database Inside Out talk that I was thinking or that I mentioned earlier. There's also the idea of CRDTs, which are Conflict-free Replicated Data Types, which are really interesting. I see them used particularly in real-time application. So it's this other tool, but they are basically event logs. And then you can communicate them well and have two different people working on something collaboratively. And these event logs then have a natural way to come together and produce a common version of the document on either end. That's at least my loose understanding of it, but it seems like a variation on this theme. So I've been looking at that a little bit. But again, I can't see how to map that to like, but I know how to make a Rails app with a Postgres database. And I think I'm reasonably capable at it, or at least I've been able to produce things that are useful to humans using it. And so it feels like there is this pretty large gap. Because what makes sense in my head is if you follow this all the way, it fundamentally re-architects everything. And so that's A, scary, and B; I have no idea how to get there, but I am intrigued. Like, I feel like there's something there. There's also Datomic is the other thing that comes to mind, which is a database engine in the Clojure world that stores the versions of things over time; that idea of the user is active. It's like, well, yeah, but when were they not? That's an event. That transition is an event that Postgres does not maintain at this point. And so, all I know is that the user is active. Maybe I store a timestamp because I'm thinking proactively about this. But Datomic is like no, no, fundamentally, as a primitive in this database; that's how we organize and think about stuff. And I know I've talked about Datomic on here before. So I've circled around these ideas before. And I'm pretty sure I'm just going to spend a couple of minutes circling and then stop because I have no idea how to connect the dots. [laughs] But I want to figure this out. STEPH: I have not worked with Kafka. But one of the main benefits I understand with Kafka is that by storing everything as a stream, you're never going to lose like a message. So if you are sending a message to another system and then that message gets lost in transit, you don't actually know if it got acknowledged or what happened with it, and replaying is really hard. Where do you pick up again? While using something like Kafka, you know exactly what you sent last, and then you're not going to have that uncertainty as to what messages went through and which ones didn't. And then the ability to replay is so important. I'm curious, as you continue to explore this, do you have a particular pain point in mind that you'd like to see improve? Or is it more just like, this seems like a really cool, novel idea; how can I incorporate more of this into my world? CHRIS: I think it's the latter. But I think the thing that I keep feeling is we keep going back and re-instrumenting versions of this. We're adding more logging or more analytics events over the wire or other things. But then, as I send these analytics events over the wire, we have Mixpanel downstream as an analytics visualization and workflow tool or Customer.io. At this point, those applications, I think, have a richer understanding of our users than our core Rails app. And something about that feels wrong to me. We're also streaming everything that goes through segment to S3 because I had a realization of this a while back. I'm like, that event stream is very interesting. I don't want to lose it. I'm going to put it somewhere that I get to keep it. So even if we move off of either Mixpanel or Customer.io or any of those other platforms, we still have our data. That's our data, and we're going to hold on to it. But interestingly, Customer.io, when it sends a message, will push an event back into segments. So it's like doubly connected to segment, which is managing this sort of event bus of data. And so Mixpanel then gets an even richer set there, and the Rails app is like, I'm cool. I'm still hanging out, and I'm doing stuff; it's fine. But the fact that the Rails app is fundamentally less aware of the things that have happened is really interesting to me. And I am not running into issues with it, but I do feel odd about it. STEPH: That touched on a theme that is interesting to me, the idea that I hadn't really considered it in those terms. But yeah, our application provides the tool in which people can interact with. But then we outsource the behavior analysis of our users and understanding what that flow is and what they're going through. I hadn't really thought about those concrete terms and where someone else owns the behavior of our users, but yet we own all the interaction points. And then we really need both to then make decisions about features and things that we're building next. But that also feels like building a whole new product, that behavior analysis portion of it, so it's interesting. My consulting brain is going wild at the moment between like, yeah, it would be great to own that. But that the other time if there's this other service that has already built that product and they're doing it super well, then let's keep letting them manage that portion of our business until we really need to bring it in-house. Because then we need to incorporate it more into our application itself so then we can surface things to the user. That's the part where then I get really interested, or that's the pain point that I could see is if we wanted more of that behavior analysis, that then we want to surface that in the app, then always having to go to a third-party would start to feel tedious or could feel more brittle. CHRIS: Yeah, I'm definitely 100% on not rebuilding Mixpanel in our app and being okay with the fact that we're sending that. Again, the thing that I did to make myself feel better about this is stream the data to S3 so that I have a version of it. And if we want to rebuild the data warehouse down the road to build some sort of machine learning data pipeline thing, we've got some raw data to work with. But I'm noticing lots of places where we're transforming a side effect, a behavior that we have in the system to dispatching an event. And so right now, we have a bunch of stuff that we pipe over to Slack to inform our admin team, hey, this thing happened. You should probably intervene. But I'm looking at that, and we're doing it directly because we can control the message in Slack a little bit better. But I had this thought in the back of my mind; it's like, could we just send that as an event, and then some downstream tool can configure messages and alerts into Slack? Because then the admin team could actually instrument this themselves. And they could be like; we are no longer interested in this event. Users seem fine on that front. But we do care about this new event. And all we need to do as the engineering team is properly instrument all of that event stream tapping. Every event just needs to get piped over. And then lots of powerful tools downstream from that that can allow different consumers of that data to do things, and broadly, that dispatch events, consume them on the other side, do fun stuff. That's the story. That's the dream. But I don't know; I can't connect all the dots. It's probably going to take me a couple of weeks to connect all these dots, or maybe years, or maybe my entire career, something like that. But, I don't know, I'm going to keep trying. STEPH: This feels like a fun startup narrative, though, where you start by building the thing that people can interact with. As more people start to interact with it, how do we start giving more of our team the ability to then manage the product that then all of these users are interacting with? And then that's the part that you start optimizing for. So there are always different interesting bits when you talk about the different stages of Sagewell, and like, what's the thing you're optimizing for? And I'm sure it's still heavily users. But now there's also this addition of we are also optimizing for our team to now manage the product. CHRIS: Yes, you're 100%. You're spot on there. We have definitely joked internally about spinning out a small company to build this analytics alerting tool [laughs] but obviously not going to do that because that's a distraction. And it is interesting, like, we want to build for the users the best thing that we can and where the admin team fits within that. To me, they're very much customers of engineering. Our job is to build the thing for the users but also, to be honest, we have to build a thing for the admins to support the users and exactly where that falls. Like, you and I have talked a handful of times about maybe the admin isn't as polished in design as other things. But it's definitely tested because that's a critical part of how this application works. Maybe not directly for a user but one step removed for a user, so it matters. Absolutely we're writing tests to cover that behavior. And so yeah, those trade-offs are always interesting to me and exploring that space. But 100%: our admin team are core customers of the work that we're doing in engineering. And we try and stay very close and very friendly with them. STEPH: Yeah, I really appreciate how you're framing that. And I very much agree and believe with you that our admin users are incredibly important. CHRIS: Well, thank you. Yeah, we're trying over here. But yeah, I think I can wrap up that segment of me rambling about ideas that are half-formed in my mind but hopefully are directionally important. Anyway, what else is up with you? STEPH: So, not that long ago, I asked you a question around how the heck to manage themes that I have going on. So we've talked about lots of fun productivity things around managing to-dos, and emails, and all that stuff. And my latest one is thinking about, like, I have a theme that I want to focus on, maybe it's this week, maybe it's for a couple of months. And how do I capture that and surface it to myself and see that I'm making progress on that? And I don't have an answer to that. But I do have a theme that I wanted to share. And the one that I'm currently focused on is building up management skills and team lead skills. That is something that I'm focused on at the moment and partially because I was inspired to read the book Resilient Management written by Lara Hogan. And so I think that is what has really set the idea. But as I picked up the book, I was like, this is a really great book, and I'd really like to share some of this. And then so that grew into like, well, let's just go ahead and make this a theme where I'm learning this, and I'm sharing this with everyone else. So along that note, I figured I would share that here. So we use Basecamp at thoughtbot. And so, I've been sharing some Basecamp posts around what I'm learning in each chapter. But to bring some of that knowledge here as well, some of the cool stuff that I have learned so far...and this is just still very early on in the book. There are a couple of different topics that Laura covers in the first chapter, and one of them is humans' core needs at work. And then there's also the concept of meeting your team, some really good questions that you can ask during your first one-on-one to get to know the person that then you're going to be managing. The part that really resonated with me and something that I would like to then coach myself to try is helping the team get to know you. So as a manager, not only are you going out of your way to really get to know that person, but how are you then helping them get to know you as well? Because then that's really going to help set that relationship in regards of they know what kind of things that you're optimizing for. Maybe you're optimizing for a deadline, or for business goals, or maybe it's for transparency, or maybe it would be helpful to communicate to someone that you're managing to say, "Hey, I'm trying some new management techniques. Let me know how this goes." [chuckles] So there's a healthier relationship of not only are you learning them, but they're also learning you. So some of the questions that Laura includes as examples as something that you can share with your team is what do you optimize for in your role? So is it that you're optimizing for specific financial goals or building up teammates? Or maybe it's collaboration, so you're really looking for opportunities for people to pair together. What do you want your teammates to lean on you for? I really liked that question. Like, what are some of the areas that bring you joy or something that you feel really skilled in that then you want people to come to you for? Because that's something that before I was a manager...but it's just as you are growing as a developer, that's such a great question of like, what do you want to be known for? What do you want to be that thing that when people think of, they're like, oh, you should go see Chris about this, or you should go see Steph about this? And two other good questions include what are your work styles and preferences? And what management skills are you currently working on learning or improving? So I really like this concept of how can I share more of myself? And the great thing about this book that I'm learning too is while it is geared towards people that are managers, I think it's so wonderful for people who are non-managers or aspiring managers to read this as well because then it can help you manage whoever's managing you. So then that way, you can have some upward management. So we had recent conversations around when you are new to a team and getting used to a manager, or maybe if you're a junior, you have to take a lot of self-advocacy into your role to make sure things are going well. And I think this book does a really good job for people that are looking to not only manage others but also manage themselves and manage upward. So that's some of the journeys from the first chapter. I'll keep you posted on the other chapters as I'm learning more. And yeah, if anybody hasn't read this book or if you're interested, I highly recommend it. I'll make sure to include a link in the show notes. CHRIS: That was just the first chapter? STEPH: Yeah, that was just the first chapter. CHRIS: My goodness. STEPH: And I shortened it drastically. [laughs] CHRIS: Okay. All right, off to the races. But I think the summary that you gave there, particularly these are true when you're managing folks but also to manage yourself and to manage up, like, this is relevant to everyone in some capacity in some shape or form. And so that feels very true. STEPH: I will include one more fun aspect from the book, and that's circling back to the humans' core needs at work. And she references Paloma Medina, a coach, and trainer who came up with this acronym. The acronym is BICEPS, and it stands for belonging, improvement, choice, equality, predictability, and significance. And then details how each of those are important to us in our work and how when one of those feels threatened, then that can lead to some problems at work or just even in our personal life. But the fun example that she gave was not when there's a huge restructuring of the organization and things like that are going on as being the most concerning in terms of how many of these needs are going to be threatened or become vulnerable. But changing where someone sits at work can actually hit all of these, and it can threaten each of these needs. And it made me think, oh, cool, plus-one for being remote because we can sit wherever we want. [laughs] But that was a really fun example of how someone's needs at work, I mean, just moving their desk, which resonates, too, because I've heard that from other people. Some of the friends that I have that work in more of a People Ops role talk about when they had to shift people around how that caused so much grief. And they were just shocked that it caused so much grief. And this explains why that can be such a big deal. So that was a fun example to read through. CHRIS: I'm now having flashbacks to times where I was like, oh, I love my spot in the office. I love the people I'm sitting with. And then there was that day, and I had to move. Yeah, no, those were days. This is true. STEPH: It triggered all the core BICEPS, all the things that you need to work. It threatened all of them. Or it could have improved them; who knows? CHRIS: There were definitely those as well, yeah. Although I think it's harder to know that it's going to be great on the way in, so it's mostly negative. I think it has that weird bias because you're like, this was a thing, I knew it. I at least understood it. And then you're in a new space, and you're like, I don't know, is this going to be terrible or great? I mean, hopefully, it's only great because you work with great people, and it's a great office. [laughs] But, like, the unknown, you're moving into the unknown, and so I think it has an inherent at least questioning bias to it. STEPH: Agreed. On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeee!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Lara Hogan explains the difference between coaching and mentoring, then goes on to coach me in a very real, scarily authentic coaching session. Don't miss this one.

In today's hiring environment, it's unreasonable to expect someone to stay on your team forever. So how do you prioritize both the success of your team/company AND support the career growth of folks on your team? Tara Ellis (Engineering Leader, Animation Content Engineering @ Netflix) shares her approach to career growth & why she encourages her team to outgrow their roles! Plus, how to help someone understand if management is the right next step and how other leaders can begin facilitating a growth mentality in their organizations.ABOUT TARA ELLISTara Ellis (@maverick_mind) is an avid tinkerer and has been since the early days of the world wide web. As a critical and creative thinker, she is a relentless problem-solver skilled in applying analysis, technical knowledge, and strong interpersonal skills in her leadership style. Tara is a strong believer in “Peopleware” and because of that has a keen understanding of building and leading teams that deliver.As a leader at Netflix, Tara has led diverse engineering teams including continuously improving the Payments and Non-Member Experience to bring in new Netflix members globally. Currently, she leads teams in Animation Studio and Production Engineering in building products that power the Netflix Animation Studio ecosystem. Prior to joining Netflix, she led engineering teams at Disney Parks; if you've been to Disneyland or Disneyworld in the last decade, you've interacted with some of her teams' software. She honed her engineering skills in the fast-paced, ever-changing environment at Amazon, learning lessons she still uses today.Outside of work, Tara loves to spend time with her family, cooking and traveling. She is a passionate collector and player of board games and a music aficionado.“When someone joins my team, I try to spend a fair bit of time with the expectation that you are not going to be here forever. I hope you are here as long as I can keep you. As long as our journeys kind of go together.But at some point, whether that be a year, three years, five years... you're going to outgrow this. That's just the nature of work. And so I like to be really upfront about that. And then I also like to prepare for that!”- Tara Ellis   SHOW NOTES:Why should you help engineers outgrow their positions? (1:46)How to discuss career growth with your team members ( 4:15)Be a multiplier for the people you're leading (5:53)A framework for managers to facilitate growth (9:02)Supporting skills acquisition for engineering contributors (12:44)Helping someone understand whether they should be manager (16:12)How to help first-time managers make less mistakes (25:09)Communicating with compassionate directness (28:52)Netflix's pivot to growing people internally (32:45)How managers can begin facilitating a growth mentality for their teams (42:41)Rapid Fire Questions (45:21)Takeaways (51:35)LINKS AND RESOURCES(article) “When your manager isn't supporting you, build a Voltron” by Lara Hogan(video) “How I learned to stop worrying, and grow high performing teams” by Tara Ellis(book rec) “Repairman Jack” by F. Paul Wilson, Nina Abbott

Lara Hogan is training managers for a new age. Old expectations and mindsets for managers in the office won't work anymore, and managers need new skill sets to support the humans around them. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Anyone can create meaningful change at work, even you. Yes, you! You don't need positional authority to practice leadership. The secret is learning how to wield influence. Spot the difference between authority and power, and learn how to use your new skill set for good, regardless of your job title.In this episode, we'll show you where to carve out your area of influence, how to make a difference from the bottom up, and why sponsorship is the ultimate win-win situation.Professor Tiziana Casciaro explains what power mapping is and how it will unlock your understanding of influence.Leadership coach Lara Hogan teaches you how to use three tools in the influence toolkit: coaching, mentorship, and sponsorship.Learn more about the podcast at fortheloveofwork.ca. Or rate or review the show here. We'd love to know what you think. 

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Bienvenue dans le podcast du HUMAN FACTOR by YANIRO, je m'appelle Alexis Eve et tous les mercredis je vais à la rencontre des Startups les plus véloces pour rentrer en détails dans les bonnes pratiques RH qui leur permet de faire du Facteur Humain un levier de croissance plutôt qu'un risque ! Le Human Factor ce n'est pas qu'un Buzzword, c'est aussi le nom de notre premier livre !Les clés de l'alignement entre associé.e.s, d'une organisation adaptée ou encore de la bonne relation à son travail, The Human Factor c'est 100 pages de retours terrain des plus belles startups et de bonnes pratiques actionnables.Vous pouvez contacter Eric Devianne sur LinkedIn.Les ressources recommandées par Eric :“Resilient Management” de Lara Hogan, un petit livre qui reprend les bases : comment comprendre son équipe, les différents types de management, comment faire grandir son équipe...La newsletter de Hung Lee “Recruiting Brainfood” qui offre une sélection d'articles qui ouvrent l'esprit.Le podcast “21st century HR” de Lars Schmidt, avec qui Eric a collaboré chez Dashlane. Il interviewe des gens un peu partout et c'est très rafraichissant. Voir Acast.com/privacy pour les informations sur la vie privée et l'opt-out.

Interview with Lara Hogan, legendary leadership coach and former engineering leader about building a performance review process. Lara goes into detail about building a process from the bottom up and takes a deep dive into synthesizing and delivering feedback to your direct reports for maximum effectiveness. https://codingsans.com/engineering-management-newsletter?utm_source=Podcast&utm_medium=platforms (Sign up to the Level-up Engineering newsletter!) In this interview we're covering: Definition of performance reviews Steps of a performance review process Preparation tips for giving and receiving feedback Rules to giving feedback based on a performance review Sharpening your skills in giving feedback Supporting your team to give feedback Excerpt from the interview: "You want to make a performance review discussion a two-way conversation. I've seen people say that you should end your feedback with a request like, “Could you pick up more tickets, please?” I consider this a terrible way to deliver feedback that shuts down any chance of a conversation. Leading questions may serve you well in a toxic situation, or when working out a performance improvement plan. When it comes to delivering constructive criticism in a regular performance review, make it a two-way conversation. This is the best you can do for everybody." https://codingsans.com/blog/performance-review?utm_source=Podcast&utm_medium=platforms (Click here to read the full interview!)

This week we're joined by Lara Hogan – author of Resilient Management and management coach & trainer for the tech industry. Lara led engineering teams at Kickstarter and Etsy before she, and Deepa Subramaniam stepped away from their deep roots in the tech industry to start Wherewithall – a consultancy that helps level up managers and emerging leaders. The majority of our conversation focuses on the four primary hats leaders and managers end up wearing; mentoring, coaching, sponsoring, and delivering feedback. We also talk about knowing when you're ready to lead, empathy and compassion, and learning to lead.

This week we're joined by Lara Hogan – author of Resilient Management and management coach & trainer for the tech industry. Lara led engineering teams at Kickstarter and Etsy before she, and Deepa Subramaniam stepped away from their deep roots in the tech industry to start Wherewithall – a consultancy that helps level up managers and emerging leaders. The majority of our conversation focuses on the four primary hats leaders and managers end up wearing; mentoring, coaching, sponsoring, and delivering feedback. We also talk about knowing when you're ready to lead, empathy and compassion, and learning to lead.

In this episode, Jean Hsu, VP of Engineering at Range, chats with Lara Hogan, author of Resilient Management, about how engineering managers can lead effectively a year into a global pandemic, even when they may be struggling.Jean and Lara chat about:Leaning into one-way asynchronous communication as much as possible — especially for announcements and status updates that don't require a back-and-forthUsing Red-Yellow-Green check-ins in 1:1s and other situations to make it as lightweight as humanly possible to check in on your coworkersMaking sure your oxygen mask is on first so that you can help othersDefragging your calendar!You can access Lara's Defrag Your Calendar worksheet here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qOXEOOYvxiA4LDgmEqK0hCYuJ44nf0Z8UM-j48kK4gw/editYou can also try out Range for asynchronous check-ins that include red-yellow-green mood indicators. https://www.range.co​

We've been made to believe that most successful products in the techosystem were built by companies that had great engineering leadership and that is why in today's episode we invited Olaoluwa Faniyi to chat about Engineering management and leadership. In this episode, our guest shares some of the valuable lessons learned from managing engineering teams as well as some widely unspoken discussions that need to be heard more in the techosystem. You can reach out to Olaoluwa, our guest, on Twitter, @gofaniyi Follow #InsidetheTechosystem on Twitter & Instagram: (@insidethetechos) Send any questions or feedback you have to insidethetechosystem@gmail.com Follow @Cnwadiogbu and @olaoluwa_98 on Twitter Show Notes & Resources [01:31] - Olaoluwa Faniyi - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gofaniyi [13:20] - Unblocking - https://codeclimate.com/blog/how-to-unblock-engineers-and-boost-engineering-productivity [14:34] - Episode where we interviewed a Product Manager - https://anchor.fm/insidethetechosystem/episodes/Episode-12---Inside-the-Mind-of-Product-Manager-With-Seun-Daramola-eudu2g [30:36] - GoTo conferences on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/user/GotoConferences [31:53] - Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos [38:10] - Continuous delivery - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_delivery [40:52] - RESILIENT MANAGEMENT by Lara Hogan - https://www.amazon.com/RESILIENT-MANAGEMENT-Lara-Hogan/dp/1937557820 [41:09] - The Manager's Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change by Camille Fournier - https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897 [41:44] - Managing Humans: Biting and Humorous Tales of a Software Engineering Manager by Michael Lopp (Slack's CTO) - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Managing-Humans-Humorous-Software-Engineering/dp/159059844X [42:45] - Victor Asemota (Venture Capitalist) - https://www.linkedin.com/in/asemota [48:00] - Online course platforms - coursera.org, pluralsight.com, udemy.com, udacity.com, frontendmasters.com [48:52] - Performance review - https://www.bamboohr.com/hr-glossary/performance-review [50:19] - Olaoluwa's twitter & IG handle, @gofaniyi Subscribe to our newsletter: tinyletter.com/insidethetechos

This Clubhouse-style Q&A was held as part of my support for React Summit 2021 (https://remote.reactsummit.com/). Moderated by Robert Haritonov, CEO of GitNation.Timestamps 2:30 How do you keep up with the changing landscape? 5:00 Balancing Learning Time with a Job 7:15 What are the top technical and soft skills to transition from junior to senior? 12:30 The Importance of Communication and How to Do it Well 17:30 Prioritization, Batching and Pair Programming 19:20 What can Seniors Do to Help Foster Juniors? Apprenticeships, Mentoring, Sponsorship and Allyship 23:15 How to convince older devs to try new tech? Address their concerns, do proofs of concept, know when to fold. 28:45 Nontraditional background. How to convince people to let you through the door? Networking and Personal Content Marketing. 34:00 How do you make technical decisions as a senior and avoid getting stuck? Innovation Tokens, Action Produces Information, Pay for Advice 40:30 Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution 42:00 Can you still be a fullstack engineer? If you enjoyed this chat, you're welcome to check out our career community for 30% off!Mentioned Links Chapter 5 - Junior to Senior (free PDF) Gergely Orosz's Tech Resume Inside Out My Podcast Recommendations Every Public Engineering Career Ladder Sponsorship: https://larahogan.me/blog/what-sponsorship-looks-like/ Allyship: https://www.samanthabretous.com/blog/black-women-equal-pay-day-heres-how-you-can-help/  Diversity Resources (this is a work in progress list, hence not yet published, but i've been sharing these with pple who ask): https://gist.github.com/sw-yx/7aeedbeac1bb81017cd4f9d66b223b63 Ninah Mufleh Airbnb Resume Innovation Tokens If you'd like to see my React Summit talk, check out: https://youtu.be/yLgq-Foc1EE TranscriptRobert Haritonov: [00:00:00] So yeah, I'll let you get to your Shawn just, go ahead as you please? swyx: [00:00:03] Hey everyone. Hey, I'm Shawn,  also known as Swyx on the internet.I'm a React fan and but also a Svelte fan and one of my talks, that I speaking later on in an hour or so is seven Lessons to Outlive React. But this discussion room is a different topic. It's a non-technical topic. It's related to the book I published last year.Basically talking about how people can go from junior to senior, how the non-technical elements of the software engineering job is very relevant for our career progression and something that we don't really talk about enough. And yeah, I'm very interested in sharing my experience, the experiences of the people that I learned from.If you wanna check out the, the amount of research I did you can check out the site at LearnInPublic.org.I'm going to just explain a little bit of what I wrote on the junior and senior chapter. So essentially   part of what I was trying to do here was define what a senior engineer is.And  it's one of those things where everyone has a different opinion and  it's more of a pay scale than it is a well accepted metric. To some people you have to have at least three years at a high growth startup. Others can take up to eight years to become a senior engineer. Or there's, let's just say they don't care about the number of years, right? It's  more about what you can do. And ultimately I think for me is what I really care about is for everyone to have the prerequisite skills enough of the prerequisite skills, and accomplishments that you can make a strong case for a senior developer, but then also market yourself as meeting enough so that people notice you and hire you whether, internal promotion or externally when you do a lateral transfer to another company. And I think a lot of times it involves acting like a senior engineer before you officially become one. So it's a bit of a chicken and egg, right? And I think that's something that we have to recognize more and study more. . Because I don't think we have  enough of a conversation about how to convert juniors to seniors and It's the biggest gap in the industry, everyone wants to hire seniors,  but there are so many juniors trying to try to upskill themselves. 2:30 How do you keep up with the changing landscape?I've just invited avocado Mayo. Are you able to speak hi, can you hear me?  Hey, how's it going? Shawn? The eye. Good. Thank you. I'm a developer based in Canada. I am, I have a question for you a general career advice.So I, I feel that the front end landscape is constantly changing and the web is constantly evolving. A question that I have for you is what are some ways that you kept up with the cutting edge so that your call I'll still the learning and what are some ways that you kept up with the changing landscape in development?Great question. It's something I get a lot, but honestly I don't, I haven't really slowed down to like document a process. I just do whatever comes to mind. So this is a bit off the cuff. So something I care a lot about I think it would not be an exaggeration to say that I do get a lot of my tech news off of Twitter and the things that, so I tend to do this strategy, which I call following the graph, which is like figuring out what the smart people that have effect they have built, the things that you use, like the reacts and the babbles and the WebEx, figuring out what they, how they got where they are and what they're working on today, because they're also excited about other things they didn't stop just because they were done working on, on, on the tool.So I follow the graph, like I follow who they follow, and then I figured out who their influences are and try to understand the historical context of where these technologies fit in. And that's all an attempt to try to figure out like what themes I should focus on for the future. So every now and then I try to step back and go okay what am I interested in?Because I think honestly the reality is that there's too much to keep up on. And I think if you try to keep up on everything, it's a full-time job and you'll never go deep on any particular topic. And that's also really bad. It's not enough to just know the names of every project.You actually have to have tried it out to know the philosophy. You have an opinion when you're, in your company, you're asked for it. So that's why I try to do I tried to have a thesis. I tried to inform it by following people who I think are doing interesting things in the ecosystem. I think attending conferences actually really helps a lot because the people who are excited enough to give a talk about something, it's probably something I should at least be aware of, like what it's about.And I have this four-step framework that I borrow from thought bot I think, or thought works. Where it's it's like assess adopt, avoid. And I forget what the fourth category is, but basically just have an idea of what you are choosing to focus on what you're monitoring and not really getting into right now, but could be, and what you've just decided.Okay. Hey, there's just too much going on. I need to filter something out. And I think that's a very healthy way to stay on top of things.5:00 Balancing Learning Time with a JobThank you so much, Shawn. I have one follow-up question before I I go back to the audience. So as you mentioned, it's I feel like when I, whenever I get on Twitter, there's an overwhelming amount of information. And I find it also really hard with all these emerging technologies to balance. I like the, my actual job and learning these new things.Do you have any advice for how you manage your time for learning new things and actually, getting your job done? Wow. That's a, that's an awesome question. I think it will be it's very nice. A lot of companies have this idea of some learning time.For some companies that's half a day, every week. So I'm going to be just like one day, every two weeks, whatever it is. If your company can budget in some learning time on the side, I think that really is very helpful.  For me, I do a lot of side projects. I will dive into to things outside of company time.That's something that's not necessarily something that everyone can do because they have a life for her family outside of outside of work. But I don't know that there's, you can find ways to. I guess keep tabs. And if something's not working out for you, be okay with letting it go and try something else.So if you're doing X, if you're doing, if you're working out, there's plenty of podcasts, I can recommend to you. Just go on my blog and look for a podcast. I have list of like 250 podcasts. And and you can keep up that way, right? Like you, you could be doing something active and still learning.You could be, just experiment with different forms of learning, in, in different people learn in different ways. So I definitely think that I learned best by, by keeping my focus small on like the number of topics and themes I get excited about and just ignoring the rest and then actually trying stuff out because.You really only go get so much just like looking at tweets and reading, readme's. It's once you actually have tried the thing out, then you have a strong opinion. And you pretty soon find yourself like recommending it at work. And it's pretty cool when like the stuff you learn on the side comes in and actually has a positive impact on something you do at work.And that's where I think people start to really see the value of you learning during work as well. So you can make a case for that.Robert Haritonov: [00:06:56]  So Shawn,  I've been doing some discord management, created the channel. People can ask a question there as well. It's right. The whole discussion around what's called discussion. I'm going from junior to senior. There was one questionnaire, but we also have two people joining here with voice, so Kwan and dome.swyx: [00:07:12] I think Dom raised his hand first. I'll go first. 7:15 What are the top technical and soft skills to transition from junior to senior?Robert Haritonov: [00:07:16] So I have two questions. The first question would be what are like your top evaluation of skills for technical and soft skills for that transition from junior to senior.And second, my question is my second question is regarding how do you know you're in that same like level of senior after, when you start off as a junior without having that swyx: [00:07:39] imposter syndrome? The second one is it's closer to home. The first one, let me try and rephrase the first question. Cause I don't think I really got it.What level of technical skills are required? You said Robert Haritonov: [00:07:48] What do you think differentiates a junior dev on a technical level from a senior dev both texts like technical level swyx: [00:07:56] and soft skills. Yeah. It's it, obviously we're at a front end focus conference, but I try to keep my answers agnostic or front end or back end, and it's going to depend on, whatever team you work on.But here's the bottom line, right? I think that seniors should be able to independently ship something from beginning to end, like the buck stops with you. And for most things I can just give you an assignment and you can basically ship. That feature or that issue or that Epic basically on your own, without much guidance, whereas a junior obviously would be expected to to be given as much resources as possible.So that independence is a very, very key part of the senior definition. The non-technical elements there, there are a lot of other definitions as well. Mentorship is a key one. Once you get to a point where people start coming to you for advice that's a strong sign of a senior developer and being able to be a force multiplier for the rest of your team.So, you're not just concerned with your own performance. You're also concerned about your team's performance and working on. Either processes or even dev tools or infrastructure tools to make them all more productive. These are all qualities that people shout out as as positive aspects of a senior developer.I have this essay called junior engineers, senior engineer, and I have a list of like little quotes that distinguish things between junior and senior, which I could read out (see the PDF linked above). I don't know if that would be helpful. But then I can also talk about, I guess I'll squeeze in one more thing before I, I give I talk about the.The katas which is career letters, right? Study your company's career ladder. If your company doesn't have one, try to get involved in in creating, defining one, because if you get a hand in defining your own career ladder, then you get to, nudge things in a way that you like, which is very nice.But if you need help if a company doesn't have one, there are a lot of public career letters out there. So I have a blog posts. That's literally just Google every engineering career ladder. And it's, I've just compiled like 30 different career letters from the financial times Kickstarter rent, the runway medium all sorts of career letters that is done in public.And you can just study them Circle CI has a really, really good career ladder, by the way. And just study, like what they define to be the qualities of a software engineer, one versus two, versus a senior versus principal versus staff. You get to see the difference. There's more and more industry impact.There's more and more emphasis on communication. In fact, the more senior you go, it's the less technical elements are still a big part of it. But then you're also expected to be able to contribute on non technical elements, which I really. I want people to wake up to essentially even if you look at circle CII, which is one of the most technically rigorous companies out there something like 75% of their promotion criteria are essentially non-technical which people don't really realize.Like it's not something that you learn in bootcamp or in, your CS degree that, Hey, you should be good at communication or understanding how your technology fits into the broader business strategy. But that's something that people put on the career letter. And therefore you are incentivized to learn about that as you want to progress in your junior and senior path. Does that, I want to pause cause I've gone on for a bit does that help it? Yeah. Yeah, Robert Haritonov: [00:10:58] for sure. I'll have to. Search your your resources, swyx: [00:11:01] but I'll definitely check that out. By the way, talking with me is like this I always go I have a blog post of that, and that's a strategy to, you like straight up, like I'm someone making fun of myself, but think about what if you had that at work, right?What if you you had a conversation, but then you had a really well thought through written thing to back it up so you can send it to whoever you're talking to. Like people will just like you, you're not only sound smarter. I don't sound super smart right now because I haven't really been thinking about this topic recently but.You just sound more prepared like you've covered all your bases and like... the bit rate of trends of information transfer right now from me to you is not very high, right? Like it's just whatever I can think of. And I'm not very good on the wall, but while I'm writing, I can structure things, organize things, make links and follow up references and stuff like that.That's just really, really smart. Write things down and I think it's a really good skill of a senior developer. Yeah. Shawn, sorry, I'll Robert Haritonov: [00:11:53] stop you here. We've been swyx: [00:11:54] Hiked out. We have Robert Haritonov: [00:11:55] so many listeners here. There is all the questions and the ex chat as well. People do have some issues when they try to get on stage.So I suggest people also to ask the question in check, swyx: [00:12:07] And Shawn, the kitchen since there all the Robert Haritonov: [00:12:09] questions. Maybe let's live with one swyx: [00:12:11] question for the first time, Robert Haritonov: [00:12:12] Just to try covering water base as, yeah. There's just a swyx: [00:12:15] lot of Devin chatter here. People might have been with Q as first, Robert Haritonov: [00:12:19] like you.And swyx: [00:12:20] then there are questions. Yeah. And feel free to just ask stuff in and I can answer asynchronously on the text chat. 12:30 The Importance of Communication and How to Do it WellQuestioner: [00:12:34] Your previous answer really helps the transition  to this question.As far as I know, something super important to become a senior, our communication skills. Do you agree with this? I guess you do. If you do, what resources do you recommend and what tips do you have? The things that you wished you knew during the transition process, when you might've felt lost.swyx: [00:12:50] Oh, that's an interesting question. So of course I believe that communication skills are very important. In fact, it's probably one of the most common things that are in the career ladder. If you study them  so very important and I will also volunteer that. I don't think I'm very good at it.I'm decent. I, I don't fail my own evaluation, but I've seen people who are way better than me about it. So I think resources wise there's a lot about communication across cultures, which is something I think about a lot. One thing I can point you to is I think the lady bug podcast, I think a lady bug FM or something like that, they did a whole episode on communication skills, which I quite recommend the D they have some tips about just.Understanding how it comes across how you come across. And really having empathy for what the other person is thinking and feeling. A lot of the times we have to understand that we're not just, let's say you're doing a code review you and you're pointing out flaws in somebody's code.It doesn't reach them that you're trying to help. Unless you break down that barrier, that kid and remind them like, Hey, I'm on your side. You have to break, go past like the emotional  barrier of Hey, does this is this person a threat? Are they making fun of me? There's all sorts of things going on the other person's head.And you have to reassure them like, no, I'm really, I'm your partner. I'm here to help. And that's something that is, it is a skill as well. And particularly in some some cultures where. Sometimes the respect for authority is, can be very different. The the expectation of like your, the message that, that has received.If it, if you say something once, do they, is the responsibility on the recipient or on the deliverer to make sure that the message went through. These are all things where communication has led to real disasters before like planes crashing, because People thought that, the message was delivered and it wasn't.So I don't know. I don't like, this is a huge topic. I don't know if I've fully answered your question, but I think when in doubt, just write more whether it's like writing up your decision on, like, why you make a technical choice, they just write it in a comment, I think or just like your PR.One of my most popular interview blog posts when I was at Netlify was how we do feedback ladders.So I think if you do, if you look, if you Google, like Netlify code review or Netlify feedback ladders, you'll get this post where we actually have a system for encoding what we're trying to say, because it's when it, when you're in a, when you're in a cold, medium there's a difference between cold and hot mediums.When you're in a cold, medium, like a GitHub PR review, people can read a lot into, like, where do you put it? A period at the end of your sentence are you being passive aggressive right now or are you just, making a joke or are you, is there a sarcasm? Is there do you think this is a big deal and I should handle it right now? Or is this just a comment? Take it or leave it. There are all these little subtle nuances that you can skip. If you have a clear code that you communicate with your coworkers with. And I think the last point I'll make is for feedback reviews which I really like is preemptively review your own code. So that you save one round trip. So when you make a PR you just think about okay, what is this person going to say? I've worked with them enough. Let's like emulate them in my head and go like, all right, what are the typical comments that they would make and just anticipate them and then write your response.And just by the sheer act of doing that, people would really appreciate it. And they understand that you've addressed their concerns and now they can move on to you with the more important stuff that they sell them, get the chance to get to. So I there's a lot here, communication is a really deep topic.And I'm not the authority on that. Like I just think that people should practice it more and realize that it is as important to them as their coding skills. Questioner: No. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your answer. Do you have any resources that you're looking at? I don't want it to be like a one way street.  Not me specifically. I'm trying to ask around as well, just to learn as much as possible. It has a communication resources. Just pop it in a discord channel. That's next to this room. That's a crowdsource. This thing. That sounds amazing, actually. Yes. Yes. On the same note you already answered this as well. How do you describe a senior? What should developers aim for mostly, if there's anything else you want to add and regarding the resources, how can we get your senior to junior coach?swyx: [00:16:37]  Oh yeah. So that's a chapter in the book. I can I will look at releasing I'll look at printing it out so that I can just release it for free in the channel. But essentially, yeah I, I wrote this, I wrote the, I wrote my book Linden, public.org. I wrote the whole thing just to address this answer of the principles, strategies, and tactics that I use to get to where I am, and also the behaviors that I observed in the people that I really admire.So I have about 1400 links for people that go down a lot of rabbit holes. Yeah, hopefully that helps. But I can read out, do I don't, do we have a lot of time left? I feel like we're, we might be a bit out of time. Cause we have, we can create, we can do Robert Haritonov: [00:17:18] like a microphone, 34 hours myself, but let's first go through the majority of general questions as an exit face. Yeah. So based on gone, sorry, I'll remove you from the audience so that people can ask questions. Thanks, CRS. Joining us for awhile. CRS, whatnot. And three eight, go ahead and ask your question.17:30 Prioritization, Batching and Pair Programming swyx: [00:17:36]   I guess they think that and answering questions for all your junior developers. How do you go about that? Yeah, it's a fair question. I think the vast majority of senior developers should be writing their own code still. There are more senior positions especially management as well as architects positions, where you might be writing a lot less code.But a lot of times you'll will be balancing between reviewing and mentoring others versus writing your own code and being an individual contributor. And that's a little bit challenging. But I think you should be able to find time like obviously mentoring and working with the team is very important.And then you should be able to figure it out. How to fit in your your individual work separately, on your own something I picked up from my ex boss, Sarah Drasner is that she actually batches her work. So if you look at her blog posts, CSS tricks, prioritization, just Google that she laid down this philosophy of basically batching this work, like individual work goes on Thursdays and maybe a bit of Fridays and then meetings are Mondays and Tuesdays, and she is coming at it from a management point of view.But I really think that it also applies to an individual contributor as senior dev, right? If you have a lot of sort of review work batch those meetings together and also try to upgrade your bandwidth again make it very, it's very easy to pair program. People don't do it. And th the every time you do it, both sides learn something about either the way you work, or learn a new trick in the editor.It's a very high bandwidth communication skill. I would recommend that batching and then pair programming.Robert Haritonov: [00:19:06] So have a role SKUs that I joined and then a super Shawn quick. Now it's there, there's some voice of community that's me as with you. So there's no big on nice push check, push. You brought up because it's constant sound from your diagnostics and they're all discussed definitely to not having to ask your question. 19:20 What can Seniors Do to Help Foster Juniors? Apprenticeships, Mentoring, Sponsorship and AllyshipQuestioner: [00:19:23] Okay. So my question is more coming from the other end. I'm a senior kind of more experienced developer and I'm wondering. Kind of what I can do to help people, or what are things senior does or not doing to help foster junior devs? Cause I don't, I want to know what I can do to make more people more diversity, like the industry, a better place to work in.Wow. Okay. This, so I thought there was this was a question about people already on your team, but you're still saying the industry as a whole. That's great. Questioner: [00:19:53] Yeah. I know. Like I can start with my team, but obviously one good safe, it's going to be a ripple effect.swyx: [00:20:01] So my direct answer is someone who changed.I changed careers at age 30, right? The right answer is more internships and apprenticeships for people with non-traditional backgrounds. We at tech companies have a lot of re entry routes for people for traditional degrees, like CS degrees. But then if you just went a different way and then came in to, to the tech industry later in life, you don't have those opportunities.And I think a lot of people, especially of, diverse backgrounds would benefit from that. So that's my immediate shout out. And my wishlist is if I could wave a wand and have every single company take in, two more. Interns or apprentices. I think that we do a lot better just because the main thing is to get people to experience, and after, six months, a year of apprenticing and interning under someone else, they will have a lot better of a resume to, to go job hunt. And that then they're off, they're they're off to the races.  I think the other thing I think is also opening up opportunities for people.So as someone who's a very plugged in and very capable. People will throw a lot of opportunities to you and you need to be aware of what you don't necessarily you, you could do in your sleep, but you don't necessarily have to do, and it doesn't have to be done right this second that you can actually hold off and just go - Hey and open up this opportunity for someone more junior on your team to let them do it and you can start supervising.So I hope that's not like too, I don't know. It's not like delegation. Yeah. More, so much as like mentoring, right? Because ultimately your success is you make another one of yourself. I always say the best way to be a 10 X developer is to teach everything, to 10 people around you.Rather than the individually 10 X and do everything yourself. So I hope that those are the immediate things that come to mind. Obviously, I think donating actually helps a lot, like your money goes a long way with free code camp. And and also getting your company to sponsor those those diverse organizations and hire make sure make sure you like the hiring pipeline is equally diverse.That I feel like  I feel like I'm saying obvious things, but how does that resonate when you think about your question? Questioner: No, that, that makes sense. Especially yeah, the letting go, the things like I know, as a know, sometimes it is hard to let go something where you're like, this would take me, very quickly this time, but the mentorship which takes, a little bit longer is way more beneficial to everyone in the long run.swyx: Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I w I would call out, so some I actually forget who came up with this idea, I think was Lara Hogan. She defined a difference between sponsorship and mentorship and, or I think sponsorship in allyship as well. It's I feel like it's so weird for me to tell a woman this cause I'm not the expert on that myself.So I would recommend those resources as well. And I'm going to paste the list of diversity and tech organizations, which I've been really following and has been helping me learn a lot about this as well. Veni Kunche has a newsletter, which I encourage everybody here to sign up because she really has a balanced view, which I love which is okay, like we're not doing well.But she doesn't damn you for it. She just says, gives you a stern look and goes like you can do better in any way. Yeah. Yeah. We know. Vinnie crunchy of diversified tech. She has a great newsletter and if you want to, hire people of diverse backgrounds definitely go sponsor her.Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. 23:15 How to convince older devs to try new tech?Robert Haritonov: [00:23:16] know, let me try it on a museum. Supertramp can you Questioner: [00:23:21] ask your question? Yeah.  Okay, great. Hey Shawn. I had a question where essentially I don't enjoy working where I am right now.Mostly due to the lack of kind of the learning opportunities. Primarily my team, they really enjoy a very old version of PHP and I'm trying to convince them that there is some proof in the success of modern react or JavaScript or modern frameworks. I just wanted to ask if, did you have any tips to convince old PHP data's or old kind of web developers that it's okay to give some jobs could swyx: [00:23:57] Wow. Hmm. Why are they? I T I have to dig into that further. Why are they opposed to adding new frameworks and stuff? What is their stated reason. Questioner: [00:24:07] A lot of our products are very public facing. So they fear that if we make any kind of change that might affect like client facing products, they worry that it might break. So they just say, all right, we see what you're trying to do here. We want to, we understand that you want to improve our code, but it's currently working. So why do we need to fix it? swyx: [00:24:28] I have a lot of sympathy with the don't fix one in Brooklyn thing. I think that's actually something that people get to after a lot of pain.They're not necessarily wrong. But obviously what you're trying to do is also improve the user experience. And that's something that they should be prioritizing as well. Are they optimizing for their own comfort or are they really,  making a technical trade off.Here. So it's not clear to me, obviously I'm not in your situation. And I can't really speak for them. But ultimately I think there's only so much you can do as an engineer. That's probably junior to them. You make your case and you make a S a strong, where you can do is for example, like a proof of concept.I'll give you one example, the a friend of mine, Zach Argyle  he actually worked at Pinterest where he was trying to advocate really strongly for a progressive web app. And everyone at Pinterest was just like, no, like it's a waste of time, whatever. And he was ignored for two years. And the way he got through was he did a hackathon where he just built a basic Pinterest PWA and shown the really high.And, metrics that you can get in performance as a PWA, directly to the CEO and that impressed them so much that they converted themselves to a PWA. So sometimes you have to do a stunt like that to get through to people. But ultimately you cannot convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced.It just doesn't have an open mind. And I was already decided that their answer is right. And in that sense, you got to look out for yourself, right? So there are plenty of other developer companies will love to hire someone like you who's passionate about modern technology and no judgment on them.Right? Like they're B they probably, they think they know what's best. But you should also figure out what's best for you.Questioner: [00:26:05] Thank you. I like I totally. Yeah I'm totally happy to hear that. There are potential solutions for like more and water like solutions for  the problems that I'm facing at my convenience facing. But if he has, like, whenever I try to present them, they Shut me off because of the fact that I'm like more of a junior developerswyx: [00:26:23] You have to earn it, right? There's a given get here. Like they have to make room for you. And if they're not the they're making a mistake but then also you shouldn't come in and just have them listen, like demand that they listen to you have to earn it as well. Maybe also look for small projects, too side projects that that they could split off to let you experiment. That don't matter as much to them. Sometimes you can do a lot of this through internal tooling, right? What do your sales or marketing or product managers need, build that for them and see that, see the benefits internally before rolling it out externally, right? These are all things that I've actually done because people weren't letting me do it. People don't let you through the front door, go to the side, go on the back figure it out. That's cool. Yeah, Questioner: [00:27:02] I'm actually only point of that topic. I did design like a next JS version of a, so what we did here is generate like what forms for people to put their data.And then we we do lead generation based off that data. And I did take that initiative and create a kind of like a front end, like next JS project. But then they looked at it and they thought that this was cool, but then they didn't think it was scalable.And they, I tried to have like more of a conversation with them about that, but then they were well, yeah, we've been doing like HP or he needs it. He's older, like pretty much for a longer time. So it just felt like. At that point in, in the one that I was presenting the project I should also say that they were they're currently sponsoring me.I'm from Canada, I'm trying to like, I'm currently working in the UK. So at that point in time, I was thinking like, this is I think the third or fourth time, they disregarded my kind of my attempt, to improve the, let's just say the initial code base. swyx: [00:28:02] I appreciate your Tufts situation supertramp and happy to chat with you. Async as well on the discord. Yeah, of course. Thank you. Robert Haritonov: [00:28:09] All right. So if anyone else wants to ask a question, raise your hand. We'll set the stage. Meanwhile, Shawn, you can just cram maybe swyx: [00:28:16] through your questions Robert Haritonov: [00:28:17] in the  light. Maybe you get a big swyx: [00:28:21] face on that.If people were trying to hire a super Supertramp andIt's a good idea to, yeah. Honestly, I find a lot of people changing jobs at conferences. It's a really nice thing to see and good for labor mobility, but maybe not so good for employers sending people to conferences. I don't know, but if you're confident in your employer brand, then you should be a net hire from conferences.And if you're not, then it should not be so good for you. 28:45 Nontraditional background. How to convince people to let you through the door? Networking and Personal Content Marketing.questioner: Hey Lucy. Lucia. Yeah, Lucy was here. I don't know. So I'm actually a developer who came from a very non-traditional background. And they did a bootcamp to get into our changed careers about two years ago now. So I did a four-month bootcamp and I managed to secure my first job, which was amazing. When I was transitioning from my first job to my second job, the issue I was encountering was I wasn't even really being given the chance to get through the door for the interview.The few interviews I did get, I found that if I got to that stage, I was able to convince them that I was a good candidate. I got a couple of offers, which was amazing. So my question was like, how do you convince people to let you through the door? Just from your CV, if you're forming a more non-traditional background.Wow. Yeah, that's a challenging one and there are a number of ways, essentially networking is the one that comes to mind, it's my friend Gergely Orosz wrote a... Little, I think it's a free book called the tech resume inside out maybe. I'm not exactly sure. What his book is.I want it, someone, let me look it up. But he actually had this, he had he'd look at the numbers, and a lot of people don't get through the first screen, which is the resume review screen. Cause people take a look at your resume for 30 seconds. And it's a very inefficient  transmission format.Cause you're supposed to serialize your experience and your potential down to a single piece of paper. And you hope that they have the correct deserialization algorithm to, to do that and figure out that Hey, you're someone that they should be talking to. So I really liked the other way of networking within the company and getting a warm introduction so that they not only skip you to like the next step where you actually do a proper interview, a phone screen. They also give you a few hints as to what the company values and what you could be doing there because ultimately you want to have a good answer for like, why are you interested in working with us?And that's something that you really get from like understanding the company really well and talking to people internally within the company. So that's one thing, I it's, I think it's a very common thing to say Hey if I buy your coffee we we let me pick your brain. Don't use those exact words because picking your brain is extremely overrated in 2021, but you could go I'm interested in applying I, and I'd love to learn more about your day to day stuff like that. It's just a very genuine people know what you're trying to do.And we've all been in your shoes. That'd be not all, but we appreciate that. You're trying to get somewhere and I think people really appreciate the effort that you put in to even like a cold email, right? To say Hey, we've never met, but like you work at this company, I really interested in it.Do you have 15 minutes to chat? Most people will say yes. And I think that's a good way to get going. If we're doing this in person, I would actually not recommend coffee. I'd recommend a walk in the park which is something I used to do in New York. Okay. The other thing I really like is the permissionless application, right? You're applying through a CV and, you may have a portfolio if you're a more design and front end oriented person. But you can also do Like a breakdown. So some, a story I really liked was this woman who was very interested in working on marketing for Airbnb and realize that, she was wanting to show some in the middle East.And she realized that the Airbnb didn't really have an middle Eastern presence. So she mocked up a fake site. That just looked like Airbnb and just demonstrated her potential as someone who could do that. She worked in marketing, but you could equally work, do that for engineering, right?Like just do a simple CLO and talk about a specific algorithm that that you could work on. A friend of mine from my bootcamp actually broke down the collaborative filtering algorithm of Spotify and she got an interview there. Because it, it went viral.So like people were Spotify would definitely noticed. But it just shows a level of commitment and interest that most people don't have because you're not praying. It's the industry term is called spraying and praying, like anything that you think that you can do to show that you genuinely have interest, and you're not just like throwing your resume every which way.I think that actually just puts you in front of the line. So that's my quick take. Yeah. Ultimately, so ultimately you won't start this way, but ultimately what you want to get to is you want to be, you want to have your domain and your sort of expertise. So well-marketed that people come to you, right?Whatever you're particularly interested in winter where there's animation or accessibility, or responsive design, whatever it is, you want to be such an authority on that. And people come to you for things that you're interested in. And then the hiring conversation becomes very different.It's more about whether they're a fit for your interests whether as compared to, can you contort yourself to something that they need right now, which is at the end of the day, like if you apply to the company in the end, they're just not hiring. You're not getting in the middle of what so it's really dependent on those things, but hopefully I've given you some ideas here.Yeah. That actually has been really helpful because it actually talks with. My experience in that, one of the offers that I got was specifically because I've been to around them meetup talk and messaged someone who'd been talking and was basically saying saying things like I'm struggling to, to get people to listen to me, but I feel like I'm a really good candidate.Yeah. And then I just struck up a conversation with him online reading 10 and from that I then got an interview which then led to an offer which was awesome. But yeah, I actually hadn't really thought about it in that way, but actually yet it really does make sense. What we're really doing here for those interested is we're doing personal content marketing is the same thing that companies are doing for their brands and their products.And we can do it on a personal level. Cool. Lucy, thanks, sir. That's a great question.  Go ahead and answer your question.Just remember to push book. 34:00 How do you make technical decisions as a senior and avoid getting stuck? Innovation Tokens, Action Produces Information, Pay for AdviceQuestioner: [00:34:07] Hi I'm a big fan of your writing in your blog, Shawn, thank you. What I wanted to ask is related to in a situation where you're given a bit more responsibility as a senior, and you have to start making decisions, especially technical ones regarding the stack regarding specific things you need to accomplish for a client or a project.And how do you maybe are how do you not get stuck in that, in the, over analyzing the specific decision, not just to not make a mistake for your client or for your product, but also not bother your, or add overhead to your teammates as well and your colleagues in. To not to create issues later on, on a project, sometimes you get stuck in the decisions so much that you feel like you can move on. I dunno if there's something that all the time swyx: [00:34:57] Are you familiar with the concept of innovation tokens? And no, actually kind of her. Yeah. I think this camp I'm not sure where this idea came from, but people who'd go Google the source, but essentially the idea is to minimize risks but to allow some innovation, right?The tech stack that you work on work with for a client it should be something that you're mostly familiar with and you're confident that you can ship in time and on budget. But you allow yourself, to innovate or try new things in one or two areas of your tech stack, and that's your sort of innovation credit or innovation budget.And yeah, so to me, that's where you want to get to that may not necessarily be where you are right now. First job is to have a set of technologies, which are. Which the whole team is confident in, right? To me, I call this like a minimum spanning set of technologies that like, you can pretty much string together to accomplish any tasks.They may not be the best tool for the job. They might, wanna be the trendiest tool, but they do the job. And then you allow yourself in every project to try a new piece of technology that you want to include in your tech stack and try it out on a real project.So that's what comes to mind for now, I think obviously where I don't really understand why you're paralyzed. I think that there's something deeper there. Can you tell me more about the analysis paralysis or I forget what you call it, like the stalled decision.Questioner: Yeah, I guess it was not a, it's not just a specific  situation I'm talking about. Maybe,  Maybe does happen when you you were given more responsibility. I do not, you don't know how to approach it. It's not necessarily choosing a JavaScript framework, but making also bigger decision on on different elements of how the team is supposed to work together either technically or not. And sometimes it does happen. I don't have I don't want to go into very specific because there's multiple cases where it does happen. Maybe it's personal to me and just wanted to hear about maybe similar situation and how other people dealt with it. And you were, I mean, perfect example.swyx: [00:36:43] Yeah. If anyone has ideas let's cross source this as well. Cause I, I feel like I don't really it's so broad this question and it can go so many different ways.  To me, it's something that you have to agree on it as a team. If you have a.I guess if you're in the position of leadership, then obviously you're in charge of proposing and helping, having to serve as a tie breaker. If you have a client, sometimes they have a very strong opinion and you can present them, twice HSB and then let them choose. These are all really nice ways to basically offload the decision.Ultimately I think a lot of things are a lot of decisions are reversible, right? If you think about type one and type two decisions which is a Jeff Bezos type of framework, I'm trying to understand if your decision is reversible or not. And if it is then just doesn't matter which one you try it out, just try it, try something out for a few weeks.And then if you don't, if it's not going the way you think it is, then you can go try the other thing. Ultimately the way I approach any sort of analysis paralysis now is this idea which I got from the sun newsletter called common cog. It's called action produces information, right? If you've done any, if you've done all your research, you've asked everyone and you're still stuck between two options or three options.Then no amount of further studying and worrying and hand-wringing is going to help you. You need to take action, whether it is commitment to one thing. And then you realize that no, actually everyone did the other thing. Or it is taking ticket for this step of running a small proof of concept or asking for more mentorship somewhere within your organization or just your, an external mentors.These are all like, you can even go as far as like paying someone for their advice, right? These are, this is a super, highly underrated thing in the company environments. Like people are available for hire, like max Storybird is available for hire. If you want any react to architecture advice, he's not cheap.But he's available. And so what other people so yeah, that's  as much as I get, I can go I don't have much to work with on the question. Robert Haritonov: [00:38:35] That was very, very helpful actually. swyx: [00:38:37] From my perspective. So, thanks. Yeah. Thank you. It's given me something to think about as well, and hopefully I can write a better answer in the future. All right. We have a couple other questions and I have a few more minutes, so let's get this going. Pokey juice from Poland. I'm guessing.  I'm inviting them. I'm going to drop by the way for those still in the room, I'm going to drop the chapter for junior engineer versus CD engineer.And we can have a better discussion there because I feel like I didn't really do enough prep for that. Hey pokey.  Hello. So I would like to address the previous in person or in, at talk question, and because I had a very similar situation that I'm like slowly progressing to higher roles.And it sounds so overly stressful to decide yeah. And good to make the decisions. And the thing that helped me that, which I have recently found out is that unless you are in a company, which has two people and you are the most experienced one in that company, then there's always slept the bigger fish in the company, more experienced.And you can ask them for for help or you can ask older people who maybe are not to give them the seminar. But to have more expertise in certain fields, or they haven't been working with certain technology and you can ask them how we do work for them. Yeah. So I have no question.This one. No. That's great. Thank you for chiming in yeah, it's a challenging position to be in and that's why you've made more money. Hopefully they're paying you for all this stress that you're taking.  Great. All right.  I am, by the way, I'm extracting my junior to senior chapter so we can invite more questions.I see a lot of questions also piling up in the text chat and I will drop my PDF in there so people can talk more stuff.  Okay. All right. So yeah, I've just posted that in the room. What else can I say about this? 40:30 Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the SolutionSomething I really want to emphasize, and I've been really trying to find the best words for this which is essentially that we should. Fall in love with the problem rather than the solution.And I think that's juniors may be defined, maybe falling over themselves to define themselves by the solution, right? Like I'm a react developer. Whereas seniors have probably been through a few of these cycles where like they've had, they've been super into something else before, and then they had to change frameworks and get changed frameworks again.And by the time you get to your second or third framework, you're just like, all right, this is another tool to solve the same problem. And ultimately the thing that lasts longer than the solution itself is the problem, because that will never go away. It will. It w it will just have different solutions that come along and with, and solve it with different trade-offs.So I hope that's a message that I want to get across that seniors. Basically collect patterns and problems and juniors collect solutions. And I want to guide people towards understanding problems deeply. And that's a lot of the way that, that the way that I structured my thinking and learning and speaking as well.So the talk that I'm going to give later in about 30 minutes is focused on what problems does react solve, and what can we learn that will outlast react?  I think that's, that's one way to go from junior to senior. Okay. I don't see any other questions I do have okay. Robert Haritonov: [00:41:55] All right.I just want more,even the act of discussion I'll be full if there's a topic. Thank you so much for everyone. Who's come by. Thanks. Yep. Hey Darren. Hello. 42:00 Can you still be a fullstack engineer?Questioner:  Hey, how are you doing? I just asked the question in the discussion, but I thought maybe you could ask her near him suggested that. So myself, I'm a full stack engineer, but.And the more I look at these big companies. Now you see all the postings are from our backend or our front end and not really CFO's stacks. I was just wondering your opinion on maybe focusing on one of those things that you're more well versed in, or is it still that it's supposed to engineer still an achievable thing to work towards these days?swyx: Wow. Ah, great question. There are definitely people hiring full stack developers. You just got to find them. I don't know where you're getting this impression that people aren't hiring full stack. I feel like they're, it's actually a lot, it's a meme in the U S where they, once someone to do everything.I would say, yeah, I'd say it's definitely achievable. I just think it's not as realistic at some level of scale because ultimately there's, this is meme where it's like this. Horse where either your joint you're during the front end really well. And then the back end is like a really crappy children's drawing or are you drawing the back really well in the front is just like this really  really childish imitation version.There's some trade-off to be made. And ideally there's some level of specialization that you have where you can actually, market your skills in in, in a good way to and it probably involves specialization as well is what I'm trying to say. So full-stack is great for people who want generalists.And if you want to, for example, be a startup founder or an indie hacker yourself that's definitely something to pursue and to be well rounded. But if you want to be a specialist, a consultant an industry authority, you probably should specialize. And those two are not at odds, but you probably want to market yourself in some, in based on what you're trying to tell to your clients and your employers right now.Great. Thank you very much. Yeah, I've heard the thoughts on like specialization versus generalization. There's a separate chapter of mine but essentially the TLDR is that everyone is a generalist in some way. And when in doubt, you should be specializing because that's where you learn how to be an expert and learning to be an expert and crossing that sort of learning gap in itself is a skill.And then also marketing it's way easier to market yourself. So I have a friend who's called, who is Cory house. He's a reacts consultant. He specializes in transitioning big companies mostly from angular to react. But that's not his only interest. He's got a lot of other interests and he actually is a pretty full stack developer just based on a history, but he chooses to market himself as a reactive Oliver.And he, and when he did that, his consulting practice 15  in one year, And in terms of inbound inquiries, you can go look up his his tweet channel he'll he'll back that up.  And that's just because marketing a response to niches, it's like a specialization. If you see any expert in something people believe in more rather than I can do anything.Forget. Thanks very much for that. Yeah. Great questions everyone. I see a lot more in in the chat and I have to go through and answer them. But hopefully this is useful and this is fine. I had no idea what to expect a new media. Thanks all Shawn for drink. Hopefully we'll be able to replace it Robert Haritonov: [00:45:11] again.Yeah, the topic is really, really in demand. You had a really solid conference level audience and just this small room for joining these for all your insights. swyx: [00:45:20] So yeah, Robert Haritonov: [00:45:21] hopefully you'll be able to reply there. Any questions and shout whenever you have time. swyx: [00:45:27] 30 minutes. I'm excited.It's is yeah, I love the sock. All right. Thanks for having me, Robert. And thanks everyone for coming. Bye. See you soon. Robert Haritonov: [00:45:34] Cheers. swyx: [00:45:35] Bye.

Performance review season is upon us again! https://larahogan.me/blog/performance-reviews-should-be-unsurprising-fair-and-motivating/ feelings aren’t includedfact-based observationsspecificcore needremovedfact-based observationsbusiness impact

Lara Hogan's blog

For Christmas week 2020, we have a special treat for you. Yves Hanoulle and I interview great Agilists and Scrum Masters that you will probably not hear from in your local Agile conference.  These are people that are really pushing the state of the practice, and we want to bring their forward-looking, and hopeful ideas to you in our Christmas Special Week for 2020.    Katrina is the author of A Practical Guide to Testing in DevOps, a book that offers direction and advice relevant to anyone involved in testing in a DevOps environment.   She started her Agile transition after a long stint within a waterfall organization, and she shares some of the most contrasting changes she experienced when moving to an Agile organization. Ultimately, she reminds us, the Agile approach is much closer to the final purpose: solving a problem for a customer out there. And she reminds us that we should try to keep that purpose front and center at all times.  Learning to be persuasive: a key lesson for Scrum Masters and all agile practitioners When we dive into Katrina’s most important lesson learned in her Agile journey, we discuss the need to bring our best persuasive game with us. We discuss some of the reasons why the ability to persuade others is so important, for example testers will often be outnumbered in an Agile team, and their ideas are less likely to be followed if they can’t “bring others along”. In this segment, we refer to a key book for all wanting to learn more about influencing colleagues and building collaborative relationships: How To Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie. Books for Agilists and Agile leaders The books that Katrina chose to recommend remind us that often we need to express our leadership abilities, and we can do that only if we cultivate those through reading and practice. We talk about Lara Hogan’s Resilient Management, The Manager's Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change by Camille Fournier, and Accelerate by Nicole Forsgren et al.    About Katrina Clokie Katrina is an accomplished and experienced IT leader. She is a regular keynote at international conferences where the main themes include leadership, knowledge sharing, and communicating change. In 2017 Katrina published her first book, A Practical Guide to Testing in DevOps. Katrina was a finalist for the Inspiring Individual of the Year Award at the 2018 New Zealand Hi-Tech Awards. You can link with Katrina Clokie on LinkedIn and connect with Katrina Clokie on Twitter.

Are companies setting up their managers for success? What are BICEPS? How do you assemble your colleagues like a management Voltron? Lara Hogan is the founder of Wherewithall, a firm that specializes in management and leadership training. She’s the author of Resilient Management, a must-read for anyone who is a manager, wants to become one, or generally just wants to learn how to be a better teammate.

Show Notes Lara Hogan : @lara_hogan  Website: WhereWithAll.com Lara Hogan's Book - Resilient Management Black owned DEI Consultants taking on more work; Manager Voltron Bingo(PDF) LeadDev Together 2020 (Training for Engineering Managers) Project Include BICEPS Model Rough Transcript (via otter.ai )George Stocker  0:00  Welcome to the build better software podcast, the podcast for software leaders who want to enable their teams to build better software. I'm your host, George Stocker. And today I am joined by guest, Laura Hogan, to talk about resilient management. Laura, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. I'm really excited. Now, for folks that who are just meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?Lara Hogan  0:24  Yeah, these days, I coach managers and leaders, fortunately, all over the world. Before I was doing this, I worked as the VP of Engineering at Kickstarter. And before that, I was an engineering director at sea and before that many other small startups in the tech space. I started out as a self taught front end developer and then figured out that management was definitely the place for me.George Stocker  0:48  Yeah, so you've worked at large companies, you've worked at startups, and they're, those are typically differently paced. So I want to go into that deeper. But after you after you did that, you've now started your own company.Lara Hogan  1:07  Yeah, it's called WhereWithAll . So I realized I had read this study eons ago now about firefighters and how they develop expertise. It turns out, you know, it was it was still basic expertise, but in this study, it was trying to figure out, okay, comparing firefighters in urban areas to firefighters in rural areas, which are the deeper experts just kind of controlling for number of fires and years experience. And the study showed that firefighters in this case in urban areas were deeper experts because of the diversity of fires. So different buildings, sizes, different materials, different you know, just like different kinds of population densities, it was diversity of experience kind of led to expertise building and I realized, I really wanted to get some more expertise in lots of different kinds of companies. And so now that I run my own business against a pretty managers and leaders of all kinds, different levels, also different kinds of organizations, ancient Organizations organizations with lots of hierarchy organizations with no hierarchy, distributed organizations co located you know, it's just the the diversity of organizations that get to support right now is is pretty cool. I'm definitely learning a lot very rapidly and it's been lovely.George Stocker  2:14  Okay, and what sort of offerings Do you have to help out leaders?Lara Hogan  2:18  So I kind of split my time between one on one coaching and group coaching and training. So I either go into companies and provide workshops or I offer like ticketed workshops which you have actually attended one of my in person workshops at the time now it's of course all remote. But it's it's been amazing to be able to go in and support all of these different heads leaders, both hands on application, skill based training for mentors because I don't know about you, but I didn't get any training when I became a manager.George Stocker  2:44  No, the only reason I ever had any managerial training was through the army which is a bit unlike everything else. Yeah. But there are 200 year organization and they do they have a an entire they've books upon books and manuals. about leadership and about running teams, and there's a lot that we could learn from it, but it is a completely different space.Lara Hogan  3:07  So many fields have actually developed management training curriculum, tech, I mean, classic engineers, like we get to, we're like, oh, we're gonna figure this out for ourselves, like, we know, we can reinvent. Yeah, precisely. It's been fascinating to try to support tech leaders, specifically, because I'm sure you've experienced this, like people are just so hungry to do right by their teams. And so it's been lovely to bring in not just management experience, but also, you know, I've done a lot of studying on how to be a good trainer, a good a good educator, a good facilitator. And that's also a whole new discipline. And so it's been really, it's been really nice to try to bring in these skills to tech organizations to try to help people out.George Stocker  3:45  You you run a at least the workshop I went to it was a one day workshop, I think might have been to at the lead dev conference. Now, if people who don't know the lead dev conferences, it's a conference for as it says on the tin lead developers, so it talks about so groups that are useful to tech leads, software managers and the like. And I, I loved it, I can't recommend it enough.Lara Hogan  4:07  And they're doing online right now. So they've got a whole bunch of amazing, they've got like a seven part series starting in this fall. It's all like three hour online events. It's gonna be just there. They're doing such great workGeorge Stocker  4:20  and supporting so many people. I'm going to drop that in the show notes, because I think everybody can still hear about that.Lara Hogan  4:27  And I'm actually co hosting the first ones. The first one if folks are interested in this is all about how do we support our teammates as they grow? What are the skills that we need to use as lead devs to help our other teammates grow and develop?George Stocker  4:39  So I don't want to spoil the subject, but what are skills that we need to help our our teammates grow?Lara Hogan  4:45  So the thing that I've learned in doing this job for a while is that as knowledge workers, we're taught that the best way we can help our teammates is by teaching them pair programming or sharing with someone how we would do a thing They're working on mentoring them providing our perspective and our advice. And a bunch of research shows that those skill sets like the teaching, the mentoring skill sets, the advising skills, skill sets are really only helpful and getting someone unblocked or helping someone on board. That's it. If we actually want to help people grow, we need to use this whole other set of skills, which most of us are not equipped to use. And we've never been taught that they're important. Like, again, we've been taught that the best thing we can do is give our knowledge to other people, but actually not help people grow. So the three skills I really like to focus on, I'm missing like a broken record to you here is coaching. So helping people connect their own dots, introspect, reflect. This is when someone's like, Huh, like, what's important to you about this? What's hard about this? If you could change one thing right now what would you change those kinds of open questions really prompt like lightbulb moments in someone you know, it's it's so powerful to like, connect your own dots and be like, Oh, I know what I'm going to do next. And most of us have that in us already. So coaching is one big skill set. sponsoring is another big skill set. So sponsoring has to do with fighting to get someone to the next level by putting putting your name on the line for them your reputation on the line for them, giving them access to visible stretch projects, developmental assignments, putting the name in their name in the ring for a big leadership opportunities being in a company meeting time someone's manager that they're doing a great job. So sponsorship is, is the is the skill set that's most directly correlated to growth and career trajectory. So again, we never talked about this thing, but there's a huge power in this. And then the last one is feedback, which we already all know about. But most of us are pretty scared of doing. So I focus on that a lot.George Stocker  6:35  Yeah, so the the common or most common approach I've seen the feedback is what we like to think of is the feedback sandwich which is they did a good thing. Here's the bad thing you did, and I'm going to close with a good thing and at least personally for me, I never listened to the good parts. Once I realized that that feedback sandwich is coming backLara Hogan  6:55  coming.George Stocker  6:56  Yeah, it will feel terrible for this. Today we'll focus only on the negative because I feel Like the good part was, it wasn't a lie. But it wasn't. It wasn't genuine, because it's set at a moment where they want to couch bad feet. Exactly.Lara Hogan  7:10  It wasn't designed to help you grow. It was designed to help soften the blow. So we're not going to like listen to the good stuff. If, if it's not there to help us learn. It's just there to help us hear the bad stuff. Yeah, it's awful. I mean, I think we've all done it, like no shame, I get it. This is a normal part of human behavior. But it really comes back to the to the six corners that humans have at work. There's these six core needs the acronym for which is biceps that I also love talking about, because these corneas are all about what are our brains need to feel safe and secure, like our fight or flight response will kick in, if any of these expressions are not met. So part of that feedback, the compliment sandwich, is to try to make sure that this person's amygdala doesn't come online or fight or flight responses and come online and in doing so, we actually totally activate that person's amygdala. It's just it's infuriating and frustrating.George Stocker  7:59  Yeah, so If we weren't doing the feedback sandwich what what should we do?Lara Hogan  8:04  So the way that I like to frame this is kind of like three parts here. It does a little bit from SBI situation behavior impact. The first part is observation. So what are just the facts? Again, just talk about just the facts, not your assumptions, not your judgments that helps keep someone's prefrontal cortex the rational, logical part of the brain online. Because you're like, Yeah, yes, I did speak for 20 minutes in the meeting last week, or yes, I do care about this project getting off the ground or whatever the facts are about this. It helps us sometimes they can still sense that feedback is coming into their amygdala still might come on but if you start out with assumptions like I think you're doing this because or judgments like man that email that you sent, it was super It was too short like that's what you know, those are not things are going to help someone's prefrontal cortex stay online are going to activate that fight or flight response. So we want to stay factory. So that's the first thing observations fact basedGeorge Stocker  8:57  and one of the things that you said in the workshop At least and then I've kind of stuck with is, you think of it like if there's a camera looking at this event, and there was there's no people interpreting but just a camera recorded sound recorded video and this is what it saw. What would it say?Lara Hogan  9:14  Precisely? I do like to caveat every time I send it out to cabinet by being like, please don't record your co workers just because it feels important. Exactly like what could what could a video camera record?George Stocker  9:25  Yeah, precisely. And so what's the next step?Lara Hogan  9:28  It's impact. So one of the weird parts about feedback is that we often describe why why we want someone else to change their behavior, like what's the impact to me, like, I care about this because it's ruining my day, or I care about this because it's disrupting our team meeting or I care about what could be anything. We're so rarely ever prompted to think about why should this feedback recipient care about this? And the thing is, every one of us cares about really different things. Like if I say to you, like, you should really care about this because this gonna really help you know your promotion. But you don't care about getting promoted, you're not going to care about this feedback. So what we've got to start to do is stop is remove our assumptions, remove our own reasons why we care. Instead, take a step back and say, what does this person care about? Maybe we do care about a promotion, maybe you care about being liked on the team. Maybe you care about getting his project done on time, it could be anything. So taking a step back saying what does this person care about just generally, and then reframing or translating the feedback into that thing that they care about? Usually, any behavior is going to have lots of different impacts to choose from. So just pick the one that feels it's going to resonate the most with this person. It doesn't have to be all about you the feedback giver, it should be about this feedback recipient and why they would be motivated to change this behavior.George Stocker  10:44  So as an example, during your presentation, it feels like you were nervous and stuttered. Yeah, the impact was I'm not sure people heard the really important idea that you gaveLara Hogan  11:00  Yeah, yeah. Well, so And the thing is,it feels like you're nervous is an assumption. Oh,George Stocker  11:09  help me, make me better. How can we do that better?Lara Hogan  11:11  So like, if someone's stuttered, first of all, does this person have a stutter? That's probably something that they are already thinking about working on. Like, I'm not sure how this feedback is gonna make them better. But let's say they, let's say, they tripped over their words constantly. So for either for the duration of the of the talk, the presentation, the trigger for their words, I would say, Hey, I was posting an impact, like, Hey, I know you care about getting this to land with your audience, whatever the thing is, like, I know you care about getting practice delivering skills. I would like to start with an impact here. Then I'd be like, one thing I noticed is that at times, like it was, there were a lot of words that came out at once, or you started in stop sentences repeatedly. So like, again, I'm just like just fact base as much as I humanly can Then I would cap it off with a question. So, again, we've all been taught to, like, offer requests, like, therefore, could you please stop tripping over your words, it's like not a thing that's gonna be helpful to this person. And again, usually if you've, if you've gotten the observation, right, it's just fact based. And you've gotten the impact, right? Like, it's something they already care about at this stage in the game, they're already there. They know what they want to do, they're already motivated to change. So you think therefore, could you please speak more slowly or whatever? It's gonna short circuit, this whole process. This should be like a dialogue, not like a one way brain dump. So ask an open question. And I don't mean a question. It's like, what if you tried blob because it's still a request? Asking an open question means what are you genuinely curious about with this person? Like I might say? What do you want the audience to know? When they're done watching your talk? Like, again, like, what's the one number one takeaway you want to have? Or what's what's the number one skill that you want to be practicing For this because I genuinely do want to know is it? Is it word choice is a body language? Is it how much you're presenting? You're like speaking at volume, it could be anything. These kinds of genuinely open questions that start with the word What? really help make this feel less like a like a, like a feedback issue and more like okay, we're gonna build this together we're gonna we're gonna help change this behavior together.George Stocker  13:21  Oh, now, yeah, no, I'm I'm almost embarrassed because I wish I had I had known about that, you know, when I was started to be a manager A long time ago. Yeah, yeah.Lara Hogan  13:36  Because if you're eating right, reflecting back you're like, Oh, man.George Stocker  13:39  Oh, sorry. Edie reported me I'm really sorry.Lara Hogan  13:43  Yeah, yeah, I we also have like, wait like long term to go. Like we even even I still it's so hard to break out of the old feedback patterns. It's hard to remember this shouldn't be just like a big dump of information. This should feel like a two way dialogue and you should be framing it in terms of what this person cares, that's really easy to forget, because we're so driven to give us feedback. We're like, I know why I care about this. I bet they care about it, too.George Stocker  14:09  Yeah, I'm gonna make an assumption here, but it and it's just a connection I just made at this moment. But this sounds like this could be also good for teams in a retrospective format that are doing something like ScrumLara Hogan  14:22  100%, the questions part in particular. So I think it's totally cool to say facts, like in a retrospective like, here's a fact based thing that happened is much better than here's what I'm assuming is happening, or here's my judgment about what's happening. So again, keep those keep those illegals offline, keep the prefrontal cortex online. But then questions are really really powerful, like, Hey, what's our number one a shared goal here? Or, if I could wave a magic wand and change one thing? What would it be? It could be anything any of these open questions can help to prompt that intersection help someone connect their own dots and figure out together a path forwardGeorge Stocker  15:01  Now, you've just finished writing a book,Unknown Speaker  15:03  haven't you? Yeah, resilient management? Yeah.Unknown Speaker  15:06  Tell us about it.Lara Hogan  15:09  This was like the culmination of so many hours of coaching and training. You know, I, I found that the same topics were coming up consistently. And the managers that I was working with at all levels, like, this is a book, not just for people who are brand new or curious about management work, but people who've been doing it for a long time. Because there's stuff in here that just even senior leaders struggle with like, why is Why is no one getting on board with our new Okay, our process? Why is this person I try to keep delegating things to not picking up the slack. Like all of these are topics that we all have in common, regardless of level. And there's a lot in here in the book too, about adapting your leadership approach when things aren't working, because I think as managers we all kind of default to what to what we know or what's worked for us in the past or what we wish we had in a manager and we don't get a lot of practice. using other kinds of leadership styles or approaches, and it's really I think, as leaders, it's so critical for us to know how to use different kinds of styles, leadership styles and approaches more direct, more empowering, based on the context and what the people around us need and not just what we need.George Stocker  16:13  Hmm. Now in the army, they had they listed three and again, being in the army, they'd release things into you. So years later, I can still mention what they had three styles of leadership there was directing, effectively a dictator, there was delegation, where you have other people do it, you say, hey, go do X, they do x. And then there's participatory, where you work with the team to make things happen. Now, that's definitely a different words, maybe for the same thing, maybe for different things that you talk about resilience management. So let's talk about the ark of leadership that you bring up in your book.Lara Hogan  16:46  Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting, because when you said delegating, I was trying to piece together like how does that how is that distinctive from the other two styles because you could delegate in a directive way or you could delegate an opinion separatory away.George Stocker  17:01  That's true. That's true. I don't think that they I don't think that they ever made that distinction at least once. But you're right.Lara Hogan  17:09  It's interesting. So I kind of think about it as like a spectrum between two endpoints, which actually sounds mirrors that a little bit one is directive, like being really directive. You know, being really firm, blunt, clear, just setting the path forward. empowerment is the other end that I usually think about. And it sounds like that's probably closer to the participatory style that you mentioned, like coaching style and sponsoring style are totally on the empowerment end of the spectrum, like helping someone connect their own dots, bringing people along for the ride, not just telling them what to do. And strong leaders, I think, kind of bounce around the spectrum based on what the situation calls for. So like, we all have a default. Mind by default, is empowering. Like I'm just like, if I could coach all day, I would. But there's failure modes to either end like there will absolutely the circumstances in which they are defaults isn't useful. Like if I had if I was onboarding someone When new to my team, and they had no idea what to do, if I just ask them questions like what's important to you? They'd be so stressed out, they'd like to tell me, can you tell me what this job is supposed to keep the home supposed to talk to? You know? So there's, there's times you need to answer. And same on the directive side, if I constantly just telling people what to do, there'd be no growth, there'd be no learning, there'd be no stretching. So it's really important as leaders for us and as managers to kind of figure out what the situation calls for and get practice using not just each end of the spectrum, but all the spots in between toGeorge Stocker  18:32  Okay, and you mentioned, sponsoring and coaching on the empowering end of the spectrum. Yeah, and coaching is asking people open ended questions.Lara Hogan  18:44  Yes. Bingo. Yeah, exactly. Asking people open ended questions again, helping them to kind of track their own dots and not telling them so not mentoring right, not advising but instead, reflecting back what you're hearing them say giving them time and space to introspect and asking them those beautiful open questions to help like process That kind of introspection,George Stocker  19:01  and once that most useful, you know, what was it success mode? I guess?Lara Hogan  19:06  Yeah, it's most useful when you're trying to help someone develop a new skill or just grow just in general grow as a human as coaching is the most powerful one to use them. So basically all the time, but the caveat like, I'm talking like 50 to 80% of the time coaching is the mode that we all should be and there's like a subset of cases in which you know, mentoring is going to be helpful, but otherwise coaching is coaching.George Stocker  19:32  Do you have Do you have any imagery that will help say, hey, an example of who'd coaches Well,Lara Hogan  19:37  yeah, other questions so I would say if you see someone at work, who's like hey, here's the outline of a project that I need I need help with it my my go to example for this is a blend of sponsorship that like giving someone a stretch goal and also coaching them through it. And coaching which was my boss was like, Hey, I don't I've got too much on my plate. If you're a director, I know you've never worked with corporate budgets before. But can you figure out the engineering budget for education? Like training, travel all this stuff? I was like, okay, where do I start? And he was like, Well, here's probably the people you need to talk to, here's the end outcome that I'm looking for. But like, it's totally up to you to figure out what that is that that sponsorship, like that's giving me the outline is the delegation. So here's a stretch project, I think you can be supportive with what I was missing was, hey, let's figure out where like, let me ask you some questions. Laura, what feels scariest about this for you? Where do you think you want to start? Who do you already know who's good at this you can rely on like those kinds of questions that prompt the intersection that would have been a beautiful coaching moment, if only I mean, I had a great coach the whole time was like actually a train coach. She was really helpful. But that's it kind of brings up the point that one person can't be your everything. Your manager is not going to be good at all these things. I think it's really important to build out a network of support that, you know, I like to call a manager Tron.George Stocker  21:01  You do talk about that in the workshop go deeper into that.Lara Hogan  21:04  Yeah. So I think I learned this the hard way. I think we've all learned this the hard way, like your managers, it is a subset of skills, you know, need more than just one person. So I started to think about this as like a group of people, a diverse group of people that I lean on as I grow as a as a, as a manager, as leader as a human. And they're each going to have different skills are each gonna have different defaults on that spectrum. they're each going to have different experiences and perspectives. Some people I lean on have like completely opposite leadership styles to me, some have way more experience in me in a completely different field than I do. So people are great at giving feedback. Some people are great at coaching, you know, it could be any of these set of skills actually have a bingo card. I don't know if we can link to stuff in the show notes at all, but like great, beautiful so you can link to the bingo card to help you kind of brainstorm who's already in your network of support for these kinds of skills and where are the gaps like where should you be adding people to your Voltron to help you grow?George Stocker  21:57  One of the issues I'm I struggle with is asking for help. We all need a manager. How do you like, if you're like me? How do you how do you get to that next step, which is asking for help.Lara Hogan  22:13  Right? And it's like the only advice out there is like, go out and network. Like, what does that even mean? It's not clear, especially though, right? It's absolutely like we're where everybody's so underwater. So even if you could find, let's say, a Slack channel to go find and meet some people in everybody's drowning. So, the best way I've seen to add people, to your Voltron is like someone in your extended network. It could be someone inside your company but kind of outside of your normal field of work like someone in a different department. It could be outside like, you know, friend of a friend, manager of a manager style. But once you kind of have an inkling that there's someone in your network that you already have a connection to. It can be the tiniest little connection in the world. I recommend coming up with like figuring out all of all the problems that you have What's one that this person can help with either provide their experience on, or maybe be a good coach to you for give you feedback, something specific, choose a specific skill that you would like them to use. And then reach out to them and ask them for that specific help. So the way that this first happened to me, and I really realized it for the first time was the former CTO of meetup event Pasqua she, I had, like, met her at something randomly. You know, we connected on LinkedIn or something. And she she reached out and said, Hey, I know that you run an infrastructure team at Etsy. I'm a, I'm currently thinking of reorganizing my infrastructure team, do you have any opinions on like, how how to do or how not to do rewards? And sure, it was a shot in the dark, but like, do I have opinions on reorg of infrastructure? So like, I was, like, immediately wrote back and was like, yeah, let's, in this case, it was in the before times, and I was like, let's get coffee. And it was, it was so it was such a beautiful example of what when you ask someone to give their opinion. And something that they may care about deeply, it's so easy to form that connection and genuinely get their help. And she she didn't make up that problem that was actually a thing that she was thinking about. And so it was it turned into a lovely two or three hour meeting in which we talked about so many things. And that was her way of adding me to her Voltron crew. And it goes both ways. Like now I lean on her for all sorts of things. And I have, you know, the honor of supporting her through a bunch of stuff too. And it's it I've seen this happen time and time again, if you just reach out to one person that you have, like a distant connection to ask them for specific help on a topic that they may be jazzed to share their knowledge, expertise on, it can lead to beautiful things.George Stocker  24:36  One of the things I don't want to skip it because it's, it's very interesting, but we almost skipped it is sponsorship. So you're coaching. Now, let's talk about sponsorship. What does that mean and what does that entail?Lara Hogan  24:50  So sponsorship, if you think about the times in your life and you as a person who have grown, like if you think about the times when you had a manager who really skyrocketed your growth And you think about what skill sets they used or what they did to help you with that growth. Nine times out of 10. It was not giving you advice. It was maybe giving you feedback, but most likely it was giving you the stretch opportunity. Like for some reason, this person trusted in me. They gave me this project, I didn't know how to do it. And that helped me grow so much. That's sponsorship. And again, it's so much more powerful than any of the other skills when it comes to actual career trajectory. There's a bunch of studies on this. And whenever I talk about sponsorship, I also like to bring up that members of minority groups are often over mentored but under sponsored which means that white people in my case actually white women are often get lots of unsolicited advice, but very rarely opportunities look sponsorship people going out of their way to provide those stretch goals and and support through meeting those stretch goals. So this is true for people of color. This is People with disabilities, trans folks, non binary people, there's just so many folks out there who really deserve sponsorship. But because of something called in group bias, the way that we network as humans often means that we are referring to people and referring people, for the people who we think about first, they are really similar to us in a variety of ways. And until I started learning about this, frankly, most of the people who I sponsored, were white cisgendered women like me. And so it just takes a lot of hard work to combat these very natural instincts of how we network and support each other to kind of break out of that shell and sponsor people with different backgrounds, different experiences, went to different colleges, you know, all the all that stuff, all the normal in group stuff to break out of that.George Stocker  26:42  Yeah, and I don't have to tell you that, you know, diverse teams will build better software all the time. 100% and we just have to sponsor and give people the chances that they might have otherwise gotten, I think thenLara Hogan  26:56  yeah, and the prime support to do so. You know too often we see people be like, here, person here's a huge stretch opportunity. Good luck I believe in you and then providing no extra support and they're gonna fail, you know. So yeah, I think that it's it's definitely needs it takes intention and then hard work to support those people and succeeding.George Stocker  27:15  Yeah. When you were bringing up sponsorship I remember the times where I've grown the fastest in my career have been when somebody sponsored me but didn't let me go out there on my own. Like they were they weren't, you know, they were behind the curtain. And they were helping me to pick up any pieces that I might have dropped, but they weren't visible to other people. And it's so so to other people. It was me. And when I look back, it was them.Lara Hogan  27:44  powerful is that Yeah. And like that, it's that that behind the curtain part is the critical part. Like we can't be sponsoring for ally ship cookies, right. That's like, that doesn't that's not what sponsorship. We need to be behind the curtain. We need to be allowing this person To be to really succeed in the in the spotlight. And I love what you just said. And it actually makes me think of the other skill that you mentioned about the army training, which is the delegation skill. And a good delegator is one that doesn't micromanage doesn't doesn't tell you what to do. But gives you the like, illustrates the end goal, like, here's the problem that we're here to solve, and then tells you how they can lean on you for support. So like, are you calling on them for support, rather, so like, you know, I expect that you'll want to get on the executive team agenda. Reach out to me when you're ready for that, and I'll help you get on there. Or I'm super happy to provide you feedback on any of your drafts before this goes live. Like just be really clear about the ways in which you want to support them so that they're not like worried about reaching out to you when it's time for some help.George Stocker  28:43  Yeah. And the funny thing is, is of course, the armies are focused on on fighting and winning wars, but there are there are takeaways. One of them, just like what you just said, is something called the commander's intent. So whenever there is a, hey, we need to take this hill for example. They started The battle plan with the commander's intent is by the end of this, whatever the outcome is, and that starts it, that ends it. And if at any point there is no communication or you know, the fog of war happens, then everybody every unit down to the individual platoons they know what was the commander's intent, what is the ultimate, you know, outcome that we are looking for. And so that allows for platoons and for companies that are outside of communication or when things break down, which they invariably do that allows them to take initiative on their own and get to the right outcome that they were looking for in the beginning.Lara Hogan  29:38  Yeah, it's almost like at the end of this what do we cross check? What do we what do we like triple check to make sure that we met the God at the intent? Yeah, yeah. I love that.George Stocker  29:48  I actually think I would be talking about the Army Today at all. So you right now with, as as we as we record, this show, live 14, California, Florida and Texas are on the rise. Other states are either on the rise slightly or a lot or holding steady at best. This is a tough time for even even if you have nothing else going on, this is a tough time. What is your advice for managers of teams at this time?Lara Hogan  30:24  It's just, it's just the worst. It's just it's really illustrating, illustrating what a lack of leadership looks like. Which means that it's in many ways falling two leaders with less power and less privilege to try to pick up the slack. So in the internal to a company sense, this means that lots of managers need to figure out how to support their teams, and their individual teammates, all of whom are dealing with different circumstances. One of the one of the pitfalls that I see happening a lot right now is managers and team leads are trying to create support in ways that they personally would benefit from them. They're projecting their own needs on to the rest of the team, like the beginning of corn times, I saw a lot of managers be like, let's create 6pm happy hours every day. So we can also feel connected and like, maybe that helped one person, most of us would have been like, I got these other I need to go take care of these other things. I cannot be on zoom any longer, you know, got three kids. Right, exactly, exactly. So I see a lot of managers falling into this very normal natural trap of like, let me do all that I can to help people and just take shots in the dark about what's going to be most helpful rather than taking a step back and listening. Asking, I don't recommend the What do you need right now question first. I recommend that later. I definitely recommend a few things for managers start with first tell them what you're optimizing for right now. I am optimizing for making sure psychological safety is happening on the team or I'm I'm optimizing for making sure everybody Has the energy that they need to get through this project, or I'm optimizing for making sure everybody has the information and clarity that they need, whatever the thing is, be really clear constantly about what's the number one goal for you, as a manager, the thing that you're optimizing for right now, that's a good example of like one way communication, which I'm going to emphasize a lot like, anytime you require there to be a two way communication, it requires synchronous communication, or even if it's async, you require a response to something makes it really hard for people to like, find the time and the energy to do so. So over index on doing lots of one way communication. In one on ones, though, be really clear about how you're planning to support people or how you're trying to support people say, Hey, here's a few things that I've realized we could use in the team. What are your thoughts on that? And that's when you can say, what else would be helpful to you right now? Like, it's only after you've gotten through this initial like, here's what I here's what I'm optimizing for. And here's the things that I'm trying in case they're helpful. What else do you need, kind of opens the door for people to be specific about what they might need. And then it's kind of circles back to something I mentioned at the top which is the six core needs that humans have At work, those things that are amygdalas are trying to, you know, keep us safe with they're all threatened right now. I mean, when we think about it, and they include things like how we belong to a group anytime you feel others are alienated or left behind, are muggles going to feel threatened?George Stocker  33:16  And is that they haven't biceps?Lara Hogan  33:18  That's the visa. Yes, yeah, biceps is the acronym. Thank you coined by Paula Medina. So blogging is the first one. improvement and progress is the eye. So we want to feel like we're making a sense of progress and forward motion or lives. And anytime we feel stagnant or like we're taking steps back, that cornea is going to feel friend, it's really obvious that's happening right now with the numbers that we're looking at. The cc stands for choice. So how much autonomy Do we have right now there's so we're being forced inside or being. I mean, as much as anybody else. I don't like wearing a mask, it's really important to do so. But for many people I'm seeing their need for choices is kind of showing up in that in the area of equality and fairness is the ease so we want to As humans, we want to believe that everybody's been doing Fairly and as they should be, and obviously a number of populations are being over impacted by this horrible pandemic. And it's a bunch of communities that need extra support right now, it's just unfair. Also, at the same time, the Black Lives Matter movement is really again shining yet another light on the lack of equality and fairness in our, in our communities. It's just, it's obviously a corny that we were taking to the streets over predictability is the P, we want to have some sense of the future, what's going to happen, so certainty. And then last, but not least, is significance, which is effectively status, like where am I in this informal or formal hierarchy. So when I think about the people that I support, as a manager, every single person's going to have a different combination of these core needs at play. And the trap that we need to not fall into is projecting our own core needs onto everybody else, like my core need right now is instability. I need it. I have a little, a little post it note. You can't see it, but George can on my laptop. This is predictability. Just to remind myself, hey, when you wake up in the morning, create as much stability as you can. So this is the corny that your amygdala your limbic Big system needs the most right now. Everybody's is going to be different. I can't project my need for predictability onto everybody around me I need to start to listen ask questions to figure out which of these their core needs is being threatened. on the blog, we can link to it on the blog, I've got a bunch of open ended questions that you can use with your teammates to kind of check in and how they're coordinating. They're doing to make sure that you're, you're correctly supporting them in the ways that they need.George Stocker  35:22  It's funny. We've talked about success and failure modes, and it feels like a failure mode of our current political system is, you know, of federalism is the fact that you have a large pandemic that affects the entire nation. And you can't like you have to have that leadership that strong leadership at the top which our system of federalism at least practiced by the current administration, administration. They're, you know, they're trying to practice that I think, but it is a failure mode right now. It's not going to help us succeed, and which is, unfortunately is devastating like, this has really Life consequences. And that's what we should remember whenever we're trying to vote for new leaders. Yeah. Now, who do you recommend? As far as you know, who do you lean on for? I don't want to say diversity inclusion, because it just puts, that puts like a label on something, it's so much more important, you know, making sure that the biceps model works for everyone in our organization, who do you lean on to understand how that can help with people of color? You know, with minorities? You know, who do you lean on? Who is your, your go to for more information on that?Lara Hogan  36:36  Totally. So there's a bunch of I mean, just everyday, there's a bunch of new resources out in the world that are being developed. There's this amazing spreadsheet that's going around that I can provide a link for in the show notes for black owned di consultants that are currently taking on new work, which is just incredible what an incredible like, group people that we can continue to invest in the support as they do this amazing work for Me personally, I've been leaning a lot on existing resources from project included when it comes to like tech workplaces and how we can continue to make our workplaces more inclusive. They got a bunch of good research and a bunch of really important frameworks that we can kind of lean on for all aspects of our business. And then the creator of the of the biceps core needs acronym Paloma Medina, she also has a bunch of resources on our website that have a lot to do with equity and inclusion work that I find myself often citing for lots of different parts of whether it's the hiring process, or the retention process promotion processes, just to really try to triple check and look at the research again, not just try to make it up like as we engineers are want to do, actually look at the studies and say okay, what works and what doesn't like there's a bunch of studies that show that different styles of unconscious bias training, make things worse, look better. So it's actually taking a look at like what works what's, what's real, what works and applying those things.George Stocker  37:56  Wonderful. Yeah, we only have a little while. left. But you know for a team that doesn't have psychological safety or maybe has less psychological safety then you know they need to be productive what you know what are the first steps you know for them is how do you figure out what you don't have a psychological safety into? How do you get yourself out of it?Lara Hogan  38:22  It's this stuff is so hard and there's so there's so much research on it. Amy Edmondson, if people are looking interested in doing a lot more on this, Amy Edmondson, has written so much about this. I'm far from an expert in it. When I start to think about this, this topic and trying to just figure out from the start, do we have it on our team? I start to pay attention to not just things like body language, but also how many questions are being asked in team meetings? Are people pushing back? When people push back? How does everybody else react? You know, how is that as how safe is it to be wrong? But how safe is it to ask questions? To provide other solutions, or just to say that something feels bad or wrong. If none of those things are happening, you don't have psychological safety on your team. A failure mode would be to think everything's fine because no one's saying anything. The opposite is true. So when I think about this stuff, I think a lot about using coaching skills and active listening skills to provide a sense of like, Hey, I'm listening, I want to I want to make things better here. I want to support you, as you grow as a person. And try to understand people as individuals, and then the most important thing for me as a manager is following through and they commit to, for me that like, you can't ask for trust, you got to like demonstrate that you deserve Trust has a lot to do with saying is doing the things that you say you're going to do. And for me, that's a huge core piece of creating psychological safety on a team.George Stocker  39:47  Nice. Now that, you know, it's not always good news. As a manager and leader, you know, how can I either How can I deliver that's a great news through their mind Boss or my team? And you know, what does that look like? What do you recommend?Lara Hogan  40:03  Yeah, so there's so many different ways to go about this for me, I just see so many failure modes here about trying to dance around a problem, or trying to over explain, there's a lot of a lot of things that I see when it comes to people leave managers being nervous, deliver bad news, as much as humanly possible. Bottom line, the news that you're that you're trying to deliver meaning in one sentence, what's the point? Then you can also add more context, especially if you give people time to ask questions. But I would say get practiced and bottom lining and being really, really clear. I don't mean being a dictator. I mean, just stating a fact or stating what the thing is happening. If you've got bad news delivered to your team, it's coming down from above you. It's really important to not just bottom line, what that news is, but also provide some context that's yours. So like, Okay, listen, here's the deal. layoffs are coming. My personal On this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that might be, here's what I think is going to happen or what's not going to happen, which is risky to say that might be, here's what I'm going to be doing to support you each as we move forward. That might be, hey, here's what I'm going to follow up on next to get some more clarity information on this, whatever, whatever the thing might be, give it give your perspective or your I'm not gonna say spin, because that's that means like making it false. But how are you feeling about this? Or what are you seeing about this, try not to make it at all about your feelings, because that's going to feel very weird. But the final thing to close with is when Can people hear from you next on this and in what medium? Mostly when people hear bad news, all they're doing every single day following that is waiting for the other shoe to drop. So letting people know hey, next Thursday, we'll have another update for you on this via slack or in our team meeting or whatever. Or hey, the next thing we'll do is talking one on ones about this. That's can be that can be so clarify and give people the certainty predictability they need about you know, in a very otherwise ambiguous, awful situation. One littlesliver of predictability going forward.George Stocker  41:59  You One of the things that we happens in tech in it, it feels like it happens in tech far more than other industries, although I have no data to back that up. His turnover is there's a lot of turnover in tech, from your perspective. And from the teams. You've worked with your Do you see that as a manager admin thing, are you so that's purely because of, you know, compensation and benefits, it's easier to get better if you jump? What does that mix look like from your perspective?Lara Hogan  42:28  You know, it's really interesting, the retention rate stuff, it's just mired a lot of complexity. Like I see some HR folks or executives bragging about how low turnover they have is actually I learned there's a healthy amount of turnover. If you've got too little turnover, it's actually unhealthy. So there's, there's like a, there's like a threshold. That's normal. I couldn't give you numbers on it, but like this, you got to ask yourself, Am I in the correct pressure, there should be some kind of healthy change internally. A lot. The folks that I coach, if they're leaving jobs, it's because they're perceiving things to be unfair. More often than not people who I coach are members of minoritized groups, and so they might be perceiving a wage gap or a promotion rate issue, when you look at minoritized groups compared to, you know, non minoritized groups. So it's been really interesting to support these folks, which is obviously a good niche of the population as they choose to change jobs because there's also a lot of risk involved. When you when you change organizations, that means you are introducing a bunch of numbers about how you're about to be treated and how fairly or not you're about to be approached. And so it's Yeah, it's, it's just layered in complexity. So I would say again, if you've got too little or too little turnover, take a little look at that, because probably it's time for some people to go. And you've got too much turnover if it feels like it's too much. Ask yourself, how do I know what can I look at to see See if this is a healthy amount, because the act of you believing is can be really healthy. So check triple check with yourself who's leaving? Is it kind of normalized across the board, there's an article that I wrote about wage equity and promotion equity that includes some tips on how to measure across different demographic groups, what your retention rates are and what your promotion rates are to triple check that nothing is, is wrongacross the board.George Stocker  44:27  The one of the things that I'll say to new managers is the first thing you should do as a manager from a numbers perspective is probably it's not the first thing you should do when you meet your team, at least my numbers perspective, you should see you should know what your people make, and you should make sure that you equalize it, you know, bring people up if they're not making what they should be making, try to bring them up immediately. Because that will, that will, that's a way of building trust. When you come in you say hey, look, this is what I see. I'm putting in for that. That's a fast way of building trust of showing them You care and of making sure that you do have justice, in equity and pay on your team, which we all want. We're in tech and one of the richest industries in the world. If we can't pay people what they're worth here, nobody can. And so we should be doing it. Yeah.Lara Hogan  45:17  It's amazing to me that the traps that people in mental traps if you volunteer around this, like they think there must be a reason why this person is being paid less. We default to like, what are the specific unique circumstances under which this person is being paid less rather than saying what you just said, which is, let me pay people equally first, and then we can figure out the rest later, which I think is going to save you a lot of heartache.George Stocker  45:39  Yeah. Maybe we maybe it's just a you know, a mental thing where we're like, Well, clearly they didn't do something right. And we'll I don't have enough information. So I shouldn't change things rather than wait a minute. These are my people. I'm responsible for them. I need to into your trust. I need to be their leader. And starting from there, which you might fail like, there might be Be a good reason why they're not being paid off. But that happens a lot less than, you know, all these assumptions that you talk about all these prejudices and these biases, that that stops someone from getting the money that they actually need and deserve, like,Lara Hogan  46:14  precisely. And if there's performance issues, you deal with that with performance management, do that with feedback. You don't deal with that with compensation, and inequity and compensation and so I maintain paying people the same for the same job is one of the most obvious things to me that still is causing a lot of issues in our industry.George Stocker  46:34  Yeah. Laura. So people, how can they find you on the internet? How can companies get in touch with you to do coaching and what do you want to leave us with?Lara Hogan  46:45  Yeah, Laura underscore Hogan on Twitter and we are wherewithall.com for all your coaching and training needs.George Stocker  46:52  Buy the book and schedule a coaching call with Laura. Laura, thank you so much for joining me today. I really It's been a pleasure having you.Lara Hogan  47:01  Thanks so much for having me.George Stocker  47:03  All right, folks. That's it for this week. We'll see you next time on the build better software podcast. ThanksTranscribed by https://otter.ai

In episode #9, Lara Hogan shares best practices to understand your team’s core needs and create predictability in times of uncertainty. We also discuss the difference between mentorship, coaching, and sponsorship – and how you can become a better sponsor and coach for your team. Lara is a coach for leaders in tech and the author of Resilient Management, Designing for Performance, and Demystifying Public Speaking. Prior to founding Wherewithall, she spent a decade leading teams as the VP of Engineering at Kickstarter and an Engineering Director at Etsy. Tune in to hear all about Lara’s leadership journey and the lessons learned along the way!

Whether you are a seasoned engineering manager or a software engineer considering the option way down the road, there are certain aspects of management that make the job tough especially with what's going on with the world right now. Our CEO Emna Ghariani sat down with Best Selling Author of Resilient Management Lara Hogan to discuss the essence of building resilient teams that rise in times of crisis.Related Links: https://resilient-management.com/https://wherewithall.com/https://www.askamanager.org/Check us out: https://veamly.com/

A resilient manager is the foundation of every successful team. How do you become a more resilient manager? Today’s guest is here to show you how. Lara Hogan is the co-founder of Wherewithall, the former VP of Engineering at Kickstarter, and the former Engineering Director at Etsy. She’s also the author of two books: Resilient Management and Demystifying Public Speaking. In this episode, Lara does what she does best: management coaching. She provides Wes with some 1:1 coaching on his management style and uses the BICEPs framework to help him better understand resistance patterns he may see in his daily work. Listen in to hear the full conversation.Wes’ Takeaways:1. Take a 5-minute walk around the block.2. Do a 2-minute breathing exercise.3. Open my TODO list.4. Open the #candidate-quotes slack channel and read happy feedback from our customer's candidates.5. Open the #gratitude slack channel and write a short message about something I'm thankful for.

Diana Pojar Staff Data Engineer at Slack April, 2020 blog, twitter, linkedin Tell us a little about your current role: your title, the company you wor... https://staffeng.com/stories/diana-pojar blogtwitterlinkedintechnical leadershipJosh WillsStan BabourineBogdan GazaTravis CrawfordCamille Fournier Lara HoganJosh WillsVicki BoykisDavid GascaJulia GraceHolden KarauJohn AllspawCharity MajorsTheo SchlossnagleJessica Joy KerrSarah CatanzaroOrange Bookmy Goodreads accountReady to read another story?

A new story of reaching Staff Engineer and succeeding once there has been posted on StaffEng. Share your thoughts on Twitter at @lethain, or reply to ... StaffEng@lethainRead the full article on staffeng.comblogtwitterlinkedincreated an unofficial Engineering Management Book ClubBuilding a System for Frontend TranslationsWhat does sponsorship look like?The Engineer/Manager PendulumHigh Output Management by Andrew GroveLara HoganResilient ManagementIrrational ExuberanceInsights BlogDaniel EspesetTanya ReillyStaffEng@lethain

In this episode of the Humans+Tech podcast we spoke to the mighty Lara Hogan about her latest book, Resilient Management. Lara, previously VP of Engineering at Kickstarter, Engineering Director at Etsy, more recently founded Wherewithall, where she coaches managers and leaders across the tech industry.

Are you a resilient manager? Do you want to become one? In this episode of Programming Leadership, Marcus and his guest, Lara Hogan discuss what it means to be a resilient manager. She will discuss some effective management skills and thought processes. She will also introduce us to the idea of the manager Voltron.    Show Notes  New manager care packages @1:00​ Becoming a manager is scary for different reasons for everybody. @5:10  Management skills are the same across the board. @9:15 At every stage of management, you start over with the same new feelings, new fears, and lack of internal barometer of success. @12:06 It's okay to get comfortable and confident in what you know, but remember you're going to encounter new things. @14:01 Build out your manager crew of support, a manager Voltron. @15:19 Your Voltron should include people inside your company and people outside your company. @20:13 Manager dens- where you can experience coaching, mentoring, and a safe space, Vegas rules session. @23:57 Mentoring is sharing advice and perspective; coaching is helping someone come to their own conclusions. @25:56 Coaching is what helps people grow. @26:26 What are you optimizing for? @30:24 Resilient management has to do with making sure your bucket of energy is healthy. @35:01 When thinking about being cut out for management, it's about given the context, responsibility, and people you work with, does this work for you? @36:52 Showing is better than telling. @39:41   Links: Gitprime.com @Lara_hogan  Wherewithall Wherewithall's Instagram 

You can be an amazing developer, but a terrible manager. We chat with Lara Hogan, former VP of Engineering at Kickstarter, co-founder of Wherewithall, a company that coaches and levels up managers, and author of the new bestselling book, Resilient Management, about her background going from web developer to manager, why becoming a manager isn’t necessarily a promotion, and some of the most important skills people need to not only be good managers, but in any supporting role. Show Links Digital Ocean (sponsor) MongoDB (sponsor) Heroku (sponsor) TwilioQuest (sponsor) BASIC Dyn Kickstarter Etsy HTML Resilient Management Responsive web design Wherewithall

Our opening keynoter at DesignOps 2019, Amy Thibodeau is a UX director at Shopify, where she’s responsible for UX Operations. In four years there, her role has changed dramatically, broadening from an initial focus on supporting content strategy. Hear her story, and get a taste of what’s in store for Amy’s keynote “Process and Ambiguity” at this year’s DesignOps Summit in New York City, October 23-25. Follow Amy on Twitter: www.twitter.com/amythibodeau More about Amy: https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designopssummit2019/speakers/amy-thibodeau/ Amy’s shoutout - Lara Hogan, author of Resilient Management https://larahogan.me/

In this podcast we discuss a holistic approach to technical leadership, and Pat provides guidance on everything from defining target operating models, cultivating culture, and supporting people in developing the career they would like. There are a bunch of great stories, several book recommendations, and additional resources to follow up on. * Cultivating organisational culture is much like gardening: you can’t force things, but you can set the right conditions for growth. The most effective strategy is to communicate the vision and goals, lead the people, and manage the systems and organisational structure. * N26, a challenger bank based in Berlin has experienced hypergrowth over the past two years. Both the number of customers and the amount of employees have increased over threefold. This provides lots of opportunities for ownership of product and projects, and it creates unique leadership challenges. * A target operating model (TOM) is a blueprint of a firm's business vision that aligns operating capacities and strategic objectives and provides an overview of the core business capabilities, internal factors, and external drivers, strategic and operational levers. This should be shared widely within an organisation * Pat has curated a “trident operating” model for employee growth. In addition to the class individual contributor (IC) and management tracks, he believes that a third “technical leadership” track provides many benefits. * People can switch between these tracks as their personal goals change. However, this switch can be challenging, and an organisation must support any transition with effective training. * Pat recommends the following books for engineers looking to make the transition to leadership: The Manager’s Path, by Camille Fournier; Resilient Management, by Lara Hogan; Elegant Puzzle, by Will Larson; and Leading Snowflakes by Oren Ellenbogen. Pat has also written his own book, Talking with Tech Leads. * It is valuable to define organisation values upfront. However, these can differ from actual culture, which more about what behaviours you allow, encourage, and stop. * Much like the values provided by Netflix’s Freedom and Responsibility model, Pat argues that balancing autonomy and alignment within an organisation is vital for success. Managers can help their team by clearly defining boundaries for autonomy and responsibility. * Developing the skills to influence people is very valuable for leaders. Influence is based on trust, and this must be constantly cultivated. Trust is much like a bank account, if you don’t regular deposit actions to build trust, you may find yourself going overdrawn when making a deposit. This can lead to bad will and defensive strategies being employed.

In this episode, Kendall, rachel, and Lisa talk about: * Not being librarian-y enough * A night job turning news into jpgs * Bleeding-edge social media experiments * Forays into leadership (and friendships!) via brunching with Women Who Code * The importance of good office snacks * A good experience with a Lara Hogan workshop * Practicing difficult interactions * Tips for managing through change * Improving one's game face * How authority requires responsiveness * The magic of recontextualizing failure You can find Lisa on the internet @lisadsmith on twitter and on LinkedIn as /smithwebsmith :) Special thanks to Mel Stanley for our theme music

Show Description****************We're chatting with Lara Hogan about her awesome new book, Resilient Management. Lots of great advice in this episode for people who are managers, becoming managers, or who are managed by someone - so almost everyone. Listen on Website →Links***** Where With All Resilient Management Order Resilent Management from A Book Apart Radical Candor […]

Special guest Lara Hogan joins the show. She’s a co-founder of Wherewithall Coaches and Trainers and author of the new book, Resilient Management. We discuss the qualities that help teams thrive and how you can contribute whether you’re a leader ... or aspire to be.

Focus on Core Needs: Lara Hogan knows and loves management so she wrote a book about it. This week she joins Paul and guest host Gina Trapani to chat about her new book and about leadership in the workplace. Lara breaks down her framework for managing different types of people and gives tips on how to adapt your management style. She also gives Paul some useful advice on where he should sit in the office and explains why moving desks can be so traumatic.      LINKS: Lara Hogen - Resilient Management  Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard   

Did your first management gig come with a small pay bump and zero training? Ours too! But being good at doing a job doesn’t mean you’ll automatically be good at managing people doing it. That’s where our guest, Lara Hogan, comes in! Lara is an author, public speaker, and coach for managers and leaders across the tech industry. Her latest book, Resilient Management, is brand-new this week. We’re huge fans of the way Lara throws out the playbook of a domineering boss who aims to intimidate. Instead, she’s all about nurturing, coaching, and sponsoring people— so they can grow and reach their goals. And she does it all with empathy, warmth, and humility. Love. Find [people] an opportunity. Put your name on the line for them, put your reputation on the line for them, and help them get opportunities that they are looking for. —Lara Hogan, author of Resilient Management We chat about: Lara’s new book, Resilient Management! Why there’s more to managing than just mentoring, and how to start sponsoring and coaching people, too. What goes into training to be a leadership coach, and how to find the program that’s best for you. Why moving desks in your office seems like a pretty small thing but is actually often a Big Deal in the workplace, and what that can teach us about humans’ core needs at work. Why it’s a must to get to know people who aren’t just like you in the workplace and find ways to sponsor them in their areas of interest, rather than defaulting to what you think might benefit them. Links: Lara’s new book, Resilient Management Lara on Twitter Wherewithall, Lara’s management training and coaching company Paloma Medina’s BICEPS model Plus: Screwing up when you’re the boss. Crying at work. Still worrying about that weird thing you said at a party in 2004. Realizing not having a boss is great...until you have no one to help you grow. Being on the receiving end of a thousand “I want to talk to your supervisor” conversations. Giving a big fuck yeah to the badass women who rolled up their sleeves and helped us make our first Collective Strength event happen!

Just when you thought you had a handle on your job... it’s time to lead a team! Time to be responsible for others. Their career growth, emotional well-being at work, and job satisfaction.   You’re excited by the new opportunity and want to grow into this role, but it feels like you are starting from scratch. You felt highly competent in your last role. Now it feels like there is a steep learning curve ahead of you, and you may or may not have mentors or role models to help.   If you’re already in a leadership role, maybe you chose it or were promoted into it based on previous performance. But you may or may not have a lot of experience leading a team through a number of contexts such as tight deadlines, conflict situations, peacetime, and re-orgs!   As a result, in the first few months of your transition, you might have struggled to feel like you’re making progress. Overrun by meetings and constant context switching has left you feeling unaccomplished at the end of your workday. You wonder if you're using your time wisely.   You might be left asking yourself, “Am I doing this right?” And, “Should I go back to being an individual contributor?”   I’m here to tell you that all these doubts are normal.   It might not seem normal because no one took the time to map out what a day in the life of a leader would look like. Or maybe they did but only shared the glamorous parts ;)   Well, it’s normal to have doubts, and it does get better!   In this month’s Build episode, we’re going to tackle the topic of being a first-time leader, and to help us out I’ve invited Lara Hogan, who is a coach and trainer for managers and leaders in tech. She is currently the Co-Founder of Wherewithall a consulting and advising company dedicated to helping tech startups and non-profits grow and execute with ease. She was previously, a VP of Engineering at Kickstarter and a Director of Engineering at Etsy.   Lara has a new book coming out called Resilient Management, and in the Build episode, she’ll be sharing insights from it.     Here are the highlights with approximate timestamps: @5:00: Why Lara chose to focus on helping new leaders and managers hone two skills: human growth and resiliency @7:30: How every team (old and new) goes through four stages of development: forming, storming, norming, and performing, and what you as a leader can do in each stage to support your teammates @10:00: The six core needs we all need at work, and why even missing one might have caused you to feel emotions like unappreciated, distant or detached, or underwhelmed @14:40: Why Lara no longer suggests using a README to help your teammates get to know you, and what to do instead, especially when it comes to setting expectations @16:30: Know what you are optimizing for—instead of fixating on a management style or philosophy @18:00: How to spot areas of friction and handle them! @20:00: Why many first-time leaders default to mentoring (aka advice giving) and need to switch to coaching (guide teammates to discovering solutions) @24:20: Do highly functional teams even exist? @24:45: How to handle delivering bad news because as leaders that is one of the things we often have to do Want a copy of Lara’s new book Resilient Management? Leave a review for Build on iTunes, then hit reply to this email to let me know you left a review, and I’ll share an e-book copy of Lara’s book with you! (Limited to the first 5 people who respond.)   Here are some additional resources Lara mentions in the episode for you to check out:   Core Needs: BICEPS by Paloma Medina Four Stage of Group Development by Bruce Tuckman -- Build is produced by Femgineer (http://femgineer.com/).

Lara Hogan, co-founder of Wherewithall, discusses finding her ideal job coaching and mentoring, evaluating for management alignment, what makes for a strong manager, the value of role-play, constructive feedback, and her upcoming book, Resilient Management. This episode of Giant Robots is sponsored by: PricingWire: Monetization & Pricing Strategy for Software & Technology Innovators Links & Show Notes Wherewithall Not Lack of Ability but More Choice: Individual and Gender Differences in Choice of Careers in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics "On Being A Senior Engineer"- John Allspaw Resilient Management Voltron Lara on Twitter See open positions at thoughtbot! Become a Sponsor of Giant Robots!

Nick, Travis, and Brandon talk about their successes and failures working alongside product teams. They discuss what keeps engineering teams from feeling empowered and how to avoid becoming an "onshore offshore" team. They talk about how to achieve collaborative, healthy tension between product, marketing, and design, and how this work is at the heart of good engineering management. Show notes: Lara Hogan's venn diagrams https://twitter.com/lara_hogan/status/966837809603600386?lang=en https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE27GQKB3p0 https://larahogan.me/blog/team-leader-venn-diagram/ What would you say it is ya do here? https://jonathancshan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/what-would-you-say-you-do-here.jpg Antoine de Saint-Exupéry's quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/384067-if-you-want-to-build-a-ship-don-t-drum-up

Jason Wong is a proven engineering leader, diversity & inclusion consultant, and doughnut enthusiast. With almost two decades of experience in building and scaling web applications, he has worked in a range of industries from academia to online media and e-commerce. He helped establish web development and administrative computing at Columbia College, led development of premium video streaming services at Yahoo! Sports, and spent seven years at Etsy leading their Infrastructure Engineering team. He currently works with engineering leaders to improve their engineering management practices and establish inclusive cultures. Contact Info: JWong Works Website Twitter: https://twitter.com/attackgecko Show Notes: NCWIT Women in tech report Etsy’s recommended reading list for allies Why Women Leave Tech Maleallies.com Lara Hogan’s Ally Resources Geek Feminism – Feminism 101 Project Include

Travis Kimmel talks with Lara Hogan and Deepa Subramaniam about evidence-based tactics that product and engineering leaders can use to can use to diagnose problems that are holding back their teams, and build healthier, high-performing organizations.

Travis Kimmel talks with Lara Hogan and Deepa Subramaniam about evidence-based tactics that leaders can use to increase clarity and build healthier, high-performing organizations. Their conversation covers: diagnosing and treating problems that are slowing product, design, and engineering teams; “organization smells”; clarifying roles and responsibilities; improving documentation; facilitating better meetings; improving inter and intra-team dynamics. […]

Lara Callender Hogan is an engineering leader, coach, and consultant at Wherewithall. She is also the author of Designing for Performance (O’Reilly, 2014), Building a Device Lab (Five Simple Steps, 2015), and Demystifying Public Speaking (A Book Apart, 2016). Lara champions engineering management as a practice, having built and led engineering organizations as an Engineering Director at Etsy and VP of Engineering at Kickstarter. In her world tour to advocate performance to designers and developers alike, Lara has keynoted the Velocity Conference, presented at Google I/O, and given talks at companies like The New York Times to help shift them toward a culture of performance. While at Etsy, Lara co-created the initial physical device labs, and co-authored a tutorial and bookfor companies interested in building their own lab. To connect her passion for performance with her activism, Lara donates all of the proceeds from Designing for Performance to charities focused on supporting underrepresented people in tech. Lara also believes it’s important to celebrate career achievements with donuts. On today's episode we discuss proper expectation setting, mindful communication, Lara's new company and a surprise management challenge! Listen on to find out what it is!   Contact Info: Title: Co-Founder Company: Wherewithall Twitter: @lara_hogan Site: http://larahogan.me/ Slides: https://speakerdeck.com/lara  Show Notes: The Lead Developer Austin 2018 Workshop   Desk moves   Paloma Medina   Tuckman's Stages of Group Development   Etsy's Charter of Mindful Communication   The Manager's Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change

Our Guest On episode 1 of Elevatd Life, we have Morgan Meredith a Senior Release Manager at Jellyvision! This episode really dives in to how careers can take many twists and turns but at the end of the day if you keep working at your craft and constantly apply yourself you can jump and right where you want to be. Morgan went from studying hearing science and sound acoustics to working at Yello in Chicago, IL and now leading the Release Management team at Jellyvision. She gave awesome thoughts around overcoming imposter syndrome and building up her technical skills. Our Highlights How to go from a non-traditional major (Speech Acoustics) to becoming a Release Manager for a team of 2. Ways to "zoom out" in a new role and find pain points you can work to solve, whether that's through new processes or clearer structure and expectations. Where do you go after being a Release Manager? For Morgan, that's developing her programming skills to one day land in a Dev Manager role. It's all about initiative. How 'imposter syndrome' is real pain in the tech industry and ways to overcome it. Find Morgan Blog https://www.morgan-made.com/ Twitter @mo_leigh Links for clicking Stephanie Hurlburt - find her online Lara Hogan for posts on how to organize meetings - find her work online Thoughts on becoming a self-taught engineer by Lexis Hanson - read here Camille Fournier, The Manager’s Path - buy the book here FlatIron School (if you’re interested in programming) - check them out here FlatIron Scholarships to receive aid for tuition - read more here AWS Learning: A cloud guru solution architect course - course here Women in Tech chat - join here Follow Elevatd Life Twitter @elevatdlife Instagram @elevatdlife

Our Guest On episode 1 of Elevatd Life, we have Morgan Meredith a Senior Release Manager at Jellyvision! This episode really dives in to how careers can take many twists and turns but at the end of the day if you keep working at your craft and constantly apply yourself you can jump and right where you want to be. Morgan went from studying hearing science and sound acoustics to working at Yello in Chicago, IL and now leading the Release Management team at Jellyvision. She gave awesome thoughts around overcoming imposter syndrome and building up her technical skills. Our Highlights How to go from a non-traditional major (Speech Acoustics) to becoming a Release Manager for a team of 2. Ways to "zoom out" in a new role and find pain points you can work to solve, whether that's through new processes or clearer structure and expectations. Where do you go after being a Release Manager? For Morgan, that's developing her programming skills to one day land in a Dev Manager role. It's all about initiative. How 'imposter syndrome' is real pain in the tech industry and ways to overcome it. Find Morgan Blog https://www.morgan-made.com/ Twitter @mo_leigh Links for clicking Stephanie Hurlburt - find her online Lara Hogan for posts on how to organize meetings - find her work online Thoughts on becoming a self-taught engineer by Lexis Hanson - read here Camille Fournier, The Manager’s Path - buy the book here FlatIron School (if you’re interested in programming) - check them out here FlatIron Scholarships to receive aid for tuition - read more here AWS Learning: A cloud guru solution architect course - course here Women in Tech chat - join here Follow Elevatd Life Twitter @elevatdlife Instagram @elevatdlife

In S2E3, we fall hard for Adda Birnir, founder and CEO of Skillcrush—the online coding school with a heart. While coding bootcamp programs tend to talk about turning students into rockstar programmer gods, Skillcrush focuses on using tech to build a fulfilling, creative, and sustainable career. And the message is working: after some early ups and downs back in 2012, Adda has taken the business from a fledging idea to a stable, profitable, and growing company of 35 employees. And she’s here to tell us all about it. > At some point I decided that I wanted the business to survive and I was going to figure out what it would take for it to survive and do that. And that really meant sort of letting go of kind of any idea I had about what the business was going to be. > > —Adda Birnir, founder and CEO, Skillcrush Listen in for a super-real convo about: Bootstrapping a business instead of raising venture capital How to bounce back when the bank account runs dry Why women are flocking to Skillcrush to learn technical skills—while most bootcamp programs struggle to attract them Building pay equity into the heart of how Skillcrush runs Making sure you don’t end up hating the company you built Plus: Friend dates, cheese plates, and ordering as many desserts as possible Vocab swaps for “crazy” and “guys” (for more ideas on this one, check out this article from The Establishment) Morning people: are they a fuck yeah! or a fuck that? Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re talking about. CodePen—write code like HTML, CSS, and JavaScript directly in a browser and see the results as you build. CodePen is giving away three free PRO accounts to NYG listeners. Enter at codepen.io/nyg. WordPress—the place to build your personal blog, business site, or anything else you want on the web. WordPress helps others find you, remember you, and connect with you. _ _ Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher [Ad spot] This episode of NYG is brought to you by our friends at Shopify, makers of great tools that help entrepreneurs around the world start and grow their businesses. Shopify started with just a few people obsessed with personal growth. Now they’re a team of more than 3,000 with offices and remote workers pretty much everywhere. What’s next? Oh, just redefining the future of entrepreneurship. If that’s interesting to you, visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re working on [music fades in, plays alone for ten seconds]. Jenn Lukas Welcome to No, You Go [music fades out], the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. Katel LeDû I’m Katel LeDû. SWB And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. KL Today on the show we’re talking to my friend, Adda Birnir. Six years ago she developed and launched an online coding course and has since built a thriving company around it. We talk about the early days of starting a business; how to decide when and if you need financial help as a startup; and we dig into what the future of working in tech might look like. But before we get to that, can we talk about our co-host date we just had? JL We can definitely talk about this. So, last month was my birthday, and I had the chance to go out with these two lovely ladies. And it was so awesome, we went to dinner, and drinks, and then dessert, and then we went another place for more dessert [laughs, others laugh]. SWB It was my favorite part about our co-host date. KL We know—we know how to do dessert. We know how to like do a night out. Clearly. JL I think that is definitely true. And I—I think that, don’t get me wrong, I love this podcast, and hanging out with you during this podcast, but I really loved hanging out with you over dinner, drinks, and dessert times three. SWB I was soooo happy to… get out and just kind of have fun with both of you because I was thinking a lot about this like we’re all busy and have so much different stuff going on in our schedules, and we all have like other work to do that’s not the podcast, of course, right? And so it’s really easy for like the only social time we have with each other to also be podcast time, and then you realize like… all we do is work on the podcast. And as much as—you’re right: I love it. Like I love doing it—I wouldn’t do this otherwise. But then you’re like, oh wow what used to be friend time is also now work time. And then you’re like, oh what happened to like just having friend time with my friends? And so I think that’s really cool that we sort of were, you know, making that time and I think we gotta make sure that happens more often. [2:29] JL A lot of us are so lucky to be able to have found friends that we can work with which is so cool because you’re just like doubling down on awesome time spent together but I—we—I keep coming back to this: this balance thing, right? And trying to figure out how to remember that… [under breath] I don’t have to remember that you’re my friends, I do know you’re my friends [laughter]. KL Do you remember why we fell in love? [JL laughs boisterously, others laugh along] JL The next Nicholas Sparks book! [Laughs] No, You Go: a Love Story. KL Yeah, yeah, exactly [chuckles]. JL But I think it’s—we all keep coming back to this balance thing, finding that balance. So, I don’t know, just going out to dinner with you all just reminded me (not that I forgot, I promise I didn’t forget) but just like, again, that this is the reason I think I love this so much is because I’m doing something I love with friends that I love. SWB I also love having like a cheese plate and not also talking about whether or not we can sign a sponsor, or what we’re going to do for the upcoming episode, or how many downloads we got this week. Like that was a pretty good cheese plate and also we didn’t have to talk about the podcast. Which, like, I love the podcast but that doesn’t mean I want to talk about it all the time. I love work but I don’t want to talk about it all the time. JL That’s true. KL Yeah. JL We did talk about one thing about the podcast which was that we should bake this in every time we finish the season: a No, You Go…Out to Dinner [all laugh]. SWB Yeah, I mean, totally! I love this idea that we work that in as sort of like these celebratory moments. And like a season is little; like we’re talking 10 episodes at a time right now. That’s what we’re, you know, that’s what we’re calling a season. And it’s not like we’re, you know, doing these like major milestones, but it’s like these little mini markers that like, “Yeah! We accomplished something and that matters!” JL And I really like it. I mean and I think scheduling stuff is ok. And we’ve talked—and we’ve talked about this before with guests, right? I mean I know last week with Carmen, Carmen had mentioned, you know, how she’d scheduled weekends off. And, you know, to have that specific time booked. And, you know, and Lara Hogan has talked about how she likes to celebrate with donuts, and I think having these things that you specifically whether you mark them on a calendar or they become habit or routine. Something that really reminds you to keep celebrating these victories, these friendships, these professional milestones, anything that you want to love, to really celebrate that about yourself, some way or another. It can be something small, it can be something big, whichever fits into your lifestyle. [4:50] KL I love that and I’m so glad we did that, and I can’t wait til the next one. Something else that I really like that we’re doing is, you know, just working on improving ourselves a little it and part of that has been, you know, this new thing we’re going to do with the vocab swap. And I just thought, like let’s check in on that a little bit. So, vocab swap is something that we are starting because we realize we were saying things like “you guys” a lot or, you know, things like “we’re going crazy” about something, and we just—we wanted to change the way we were talking and just be a lot more aware of those things, and learn more about how to practice that a little bit better. So h—how do you feel like it’s been going? JL I feel like it’s been going well. I’ve run into a few hiccups here and there. For “you guys” I’m really good if I’m typing: I can type “y’all” or “folks.” But it feels weird for me to say “y’all” or “folks” out loud. The face I’m making right now [chuckles] is like mmm. It just doesn’t roll off my tongue that well. So, I don’t know, are you—are y’all saying something else? KL I also find that if I simply just take a beat and say “you” because that can apply to a group of people. If I’m not sure or like don’t feel comfortable saying “y’all” or “folks” or, you know, whatever, I like saying “friends” or “pals” [yeah][mm hmm]. I don’t know, just kind of thinking of all those different ways you can kind of experiment. I had a hard time with it, too, and then I was like, “I think I just need to force myself to say it,” and then it became a lot more comfortable. SWB I think that a lot of time like other things sound weird in our heads [yeah] because we’re not used to them, but they don’t actually sound weird. But I think, you know, something I—it depends on the context, right? Like so at the beginning of a conversation if you’re like introducing yourself or, you know, you’re saying hi for the first time, it’s like—I sometimes find that something like a “hey everyone” is more comfortable for me [yes yes] and then in conversation if it’s like, you know, “What do you guys want to get for lunch?” I find myself not saying that anymore because I find it’s pretty comfortable to say like, “What do you all want for lunch?” Not a y’all but like, “What do you all want?” KL Right. Yeah. SWB I found that those—those are the ways that it tends to work for me I think most of the time. JL And then the other one for me, you know, we were talking about substituting “crazy” for things like “wild.” So, “I’m wild about that.” And I love that, but then I ran into something like, what about if I’m saying, “This drives me crazy.” [7:24] SWB Yeah, so I mean that’s an interesting one, right? Because what you’re implying there is that this is making you mentally ill. And that’s kind of like what you mean, right, when you say that but it’s not really what you mean, right? And so for a lot of people it feels like that’s making light of people with actual mental illness. And so, you know, it’s hard to just swap out a word there. It’s like you kind of need to change up the whole phrase [mm hmm] so that you’re not—because if you say some other word that’s a substitute for crazy, like, “This is driving me nuts,” you’re basically saying the same thing [mm hmm]. So—so we started brainstorming some potentials [laughter]. Ok, so, “That makes me frustrated.” That’s a—that’s a good baseline one. You can use that pretty much anywhere. JL Totally. SWB What else did we come up with? JL Uh, “This really grinds my gears.” SWB [Laughs] These get bad so quickly [laughs]. KL “These really—really get my panties in a bunch.” JL [Laughs] Uh, “This makes my blood boil.” SWB “This really rubs me wrong.” [Mm] Meh [laughter]. JL That phrase, “Rubs me wrong,” rubs me wrong [laughter]. KL “That really… steams my mussels.” [Laughter] SWB Is that a thing?! [Laughter] KL No!! [Laughter][Music fades in, plays alone for two seconds, fades out.] Thanks to our sponsors SWB [Ad spot] Have you visited noyougoshow.com yet? Well, you should. Because that’s where you sign up for our brand-new email newsletter, “I Love That.” And guess what? We made that site with our awesome sponsor, WordPress. We love them, too. WordPress gives us tons of flexibility, so we can add whatever features we want easily. You can even use it for ecommerce. Whether you want to add a simple “buy” button, or have a whole online store, make your site your own when you build it on wordpress.com. You don’t need to do the coding or design. WordPress customer support team is there 24/7 to make sure things are [kisses index and thumb] chef-finger-kiss good. Go to wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off any new plan purchase. That’s 15 percent off your brand-new website at wordpress.com/noyougo. We’re also hyped to be supported this week by CodePen, a powerful tool that allows designers and developers to write code like HTML, CSS, and JavaScript directly in a browser and see the results as you build. It’s like a big, virtual sandbox where you can learn new skills, show off your work, get help, and more. Not only is CodePen an awesome community but they’re also doing this awesome giveaway. They’re giving away three free Pro Developer accounts. Enter to win at codepen.io/nyg by answering just one question: What do you love about CodePen? And if you don’t use CodePen yet, you can still win. You just need to tell them what you’re excited to make first. So check out CodePen today and enter to win one of those three free Pro accounts. Visit codepen.io/nyg. That’s C-O-D-E-P-E-N dot I-O slash N-Y-G [music fades in, plays alone for two seconds, fades out]. [10:16] Interview: Adda Birnir KL I know my way around HTML and CSS because of one person: Adda Birnir. She is the founder and CEO of Skillcrush, the online coding school with a heart, which she’s built from the ground up over the past six years. Adda helped me learn programming languages, but more than that, I felt confident after learning something new, which is amazing. She’s helping thousands of people learn to code so they can make a living doing work they actually love. Adda, I’m thrilled to have you on the show. Welcome to No, You Go. Adda Birnir I’m so thrilled to be here! KL So let’s just get into this: how did you launch Skillcrush? AB We started, you know, in April of 2012 and basically at that point I had been working as a developer for probably about two years or so, and was kind of interested in this idea—was a moment in which startups were really hot, and it was like right when a lot of those incubators were sort of coming out. And it was kind of like everyone had a big idea and I was like, “I want in on this too!” So I was playing around with some different stuff with some friends of mine. At the time I was—I was running sort of a very, very small design/development shop with a business partner who became one of the founders of Skillcrush, and we were kind of experimenting with different ideas around apps and services and stuff like that that we could offer people. And we’d actually had one that had totally flopped and that had been a really good lesson for me because it was definitely one of those things where instead of starting with a problem and a customer, we started with a solution so we were, you know, there’s kind of a typical startup thing like a solution in search for a problem. And therefore I wanted to do everything with Skillcrush totally the opposite way. So we actually launched the first like first thing where we put the Skillcrush name out there was just a newsletter that we launched, and we launched it at South by Southwest [SXSW]. And by launched at SXSW, we put like an email form signup on an iPad and like walked up to people at SXSW and [laughs] tried to get them to buy it with an email address. So that was the first sort of genesis of Skillcrush in the form that it is today. [12:23] SWB What did you tell people at SXSW? Like what did you tell people they were signing up for? AB Basically the kind of like hypothesis or like the question that we were trying to answer for ourselves was: would women buy a product that was about technical topics if we positioned it in a much friendlier kind of way? That was kind of like the scientific experiment we wanted to do. Our hypothesis was that it’s not really that coding, per se, is unattractive to women, it’s that the way in which every other, you know, major university, education, everything outlet talks about it is the problem. And so if we repositioned it in a much friendlier way that seemed a lot more relevant to women’s lives, would they be willing to buy it? And our thought was if we can’t get women at SXSW to buy it, we’re screwed. Right? Like this is—this is definitely like the early adopter audience, and what we sold them, and by “sold,” again, it was for free with an email address. But what we sold them was a tech word of the day newsletter. I think. And it was like, every day we were going to define a new tech term in like a fun and interesting way. But I’m sure our pitch changed a lot, I’m sure, person to person, because we were literally doing direct sales person to person. KL I—I remember that newsletter. I mean, I signed up for that and I remember thinking like, “This is such a great entry point.” So, I don’t know, it—it worked. AB I got Katel! KL [Laughs] Yeah, exactly. So in the early days, after you grew sort of from making just that newsletter, you started doing these tutorials… what were those early days like creating all those tutorials? And like you—you yourself were at the center of this brand and kind of giving the lessons. Like what was that like? AB It was just a lot of work [laugh]. I mean it was like… I would literally—I mean I think that’s sort of every founder when they start, right? It’s funny for me to think about now because there’s people who’s like full-time job it is to video edit for us, for example. Whereas I used to write the content, do the video, edit the video, upload it to the site, code the site, you know what I mean? [KL laughs yeah] It was just like every single part of it. Yeah, I mean—I mean honestly like I think I am somebody who happens to be—like really enjoy that aspect of it. I mean I love Skillcrush and what it is now, but like I miss those early days. I miss the days when I could like have an idea… you know? Run through the entire production cycle and have it up the next day. That was super duper fun. It was also like soul crushingly like… you know like the weight of like, “Is this going to work?” You know, “Am I deluding myself?” Like all of that stuff was really, really hard. So, you know, it’s a—it’s a give and take. [15:05] KL Did you always feel like you were the kind of person who would start a business? Like, when did you know that you were that person? AB I… discovered that I was the type of person to run a business probably like four or five months into running my first business when I realized. I mean I really had to like have a heart to heart with myself and be like, “You know what? I’m running a business.” Because what had happened is that I had basically been doing this job, I was working at MTV at the time, and I really didn’t like it. And I met this friend who became my business partner and she had run a freelance—she’d basically been like a solopreneur kind of freelancer, sole proprietor, before that as a designer. And she was basically pitching to me that like I could be the developer, she would be the designer, and we could take on bigger projects together… And I was basically like, “I’ll do anything but stay here.” [Laughs] So I was like, “Sounds like a great idea. I’ll do whatever you say. You seem to have a vision.” So I did that and then I like had that—I had some sense that we needed to incorporate the biz—the whatever it was that we were doing. Again, I was not thinking about this as a business. And so I did all this research into co-op business models which is actually like a thing you can incorporate as. And I had this like fantasy that we were going to be this cooperative, and I was doing all this research about what that meant and like all this stuff. And then eventually like it just got to this point where I was like, I just dug myself, like really dug into some rabbit hole, and she was like, “We just need to make an LLC and be done with it.” I was like, “Ok, fine!” And that was kind of the moment at which it dawned on me that like this was a business that we were starting. Skillcrush obviously was very different. When I started Skillcrush I had already run a business for two years, and gone through a lot of the things around like incorporating, and, you know, hiring your first person, and then, you know, what does it mean employee, contractor, like you know—health insurance—like all of that stuff which is its own big learning curve. SWB Adda, when you started Skillcrush did you kind of go all in right away or were you still doing client work and kind of doing this on the side? Like how did you spin it up into what it is now? AB Yeah, no, definitely not going all in like right away. I started, you know, we were doing—we were a design and development consultancy, effectively, so we would you know build websites for clients for hire and so that, you know, luckily it lent itself really well to this because we kind of were—like we had a workflow that sort of accounted for a lot of different projects and moving them along at the same time. So it wasn’t so hard to like slot in a personal or a sort of, you know, more of like a pet project for us. But so we started off that way. We did apply for an incubator. So that was helpful for us for a number of reasons: they gave us some money, which was great. And then, you know, sort of allowed us to dial down the client work and really focus for awhile. I think it also was, you know, at the time like I think it was like a lot of validation for us—which, looking back on it, I don’t really think that getting validation from like any sort of incubator or investment really means very much, but at the time it did. You know, like, I guess what I’m trying to say is objectively, it’s not like they really knew that we were, you know… going to work out as a company. But I think just having anyone tell you that this is a good idea and then put some money behind it like obviously is really helpful and encouraging at that moment in time. So. [18:21] KL Yeah. AB That was super helpful. And then we actually got a follow-on note from another investor so that gave us a little bit more runway. But I will say, like, we burned through all that money and then literally had negative dollars in the bank account and had to like figure out what the hell to do with ourselves [laughs]. So then we went back to doing client work. So it was definitely like it was a long road. Like I… went full-time on Skillcrush in the fall of 2014. So that was like over two years after we had batted the company. SWB That’s really interesting. So… so yeah something that we hear about a lot is when people start talking about, you know, running a startup, they’ll—they’ll immediately launch into… how they went from an incubator or whatever into, “Ok when we got our Series A,” and, you know, “Going for our Series B.” And did you kind of stop going down that investment path or did you continue once you went past the incubation stage? Can you tell us more about how that played out? AB Yeah so we did basically an incubator, which was $25,000, which is kind of traditional for an incubator. Then we did a convertible note, follow-on investment, which was basically like we just got—we got handed a $50,000 check and we didn’t even have to ask for it. But convertible notes, for those of you who aren’t familiar: basically they’re debt that will convert at the point at which you raise more money. Meaning that it’ll convert to equity. So it’s like you owe $50,000 on this timetable, but the idea is that instead of having to actually pay that back you raise more money. Like a Series A, for example. And at that point it converts to equity instead of being a debt. So we basically got a total of $75,000, and we used that to sort of fund the initial creation of our product and at that point we got ourselves to a point where we were making money but very little money. It was like $5,000 or something like that which, Katel, that’s probably like, you’re probably like one of the first dollars in the door [laughs, KL laughs]. KL Yes! AB [Chuckles] But yeah, so, and, you know, I think at the time like we were like, “Oh $5,000, that’s awesome.” Like, “Next month it’ll be $10,000, and then $15,000!” And instead it was like $5,000, then it was like $4,000, then it was like $3,000, and then we were like, “Oh no! This is a disaster.” And that was the point at which we had to, you know, just out of necessity, had to go and start doing other work to just make a living—I mean just to pay my rent. But in terms of the whole question of like whether or not to raise. You know, honestly this is something I fought with my co-founder about a lot, and I think she would be comfortable with me saying this. One of my co-founders I think kind of like basically left because I effectively refused to fundraise at that point, and the reason I refused at that point was I really didn’t—I just didn’t know even where to begin with that. Like I didn’t really know what I would do with the money if I raised the money. I didn’t really know what potential there was. I mean for me, this was so new at that point in time. It just wasn’t something I felt comfortable doing or wanted to do and I also think like that there was an extent to which like I had this sense of like, like, “I have a lot to learn here.” Both like myself as a person but also just like in context of this, like is this a viable business? What is needed for it to be a viable business? What does it look like? What needs to happen? [21:31] AB [Continued] And I think I just didn’t want kind of the pressure that bringing on more people would bring into it. So yeah, so I didn’t raise money. And then later on when I got to the point where I could’ve started to answer those questions, it kind of felt like the same thing, except for now I like was more knowledgeable, like I felt like I didn’t want to make promises I couldn’t keep. I—it was growing really organically, and it was growing at a high rate, but not at a sort of venture-backable high rate. And at that point I didn’t need the money, like I—we were profitable. So I just kind of continued to grow it like that. SWB I ask about it because I feel like so often when we have any conversation about a kind of tech-related business, nobody seems to understand that like… this is actually one potential path you could take. It’s almost like people have forgotten that since, you know, like people have been starting businesses by doing work for money [chuckles] for a really long time, and then it’s like, all of a sudden, it’s like everybody collectively forgot that, and assumes that what you have to do is go out there and get, you know, large amounts of funding and that it is all about raising capital, and then having to make those people happy. And so I—I really like, you know, looking at what are other ways people do this kind of thing? And then, how does that change what you offer, and how you offer it, and how you choose to grow? AB I don’t regret anything about what I’ve done. I mean I will admit, just for full disclosure, I did raise money from an angel investor in 2015 and the reason for that was that at that point we were making a lot of money but I also had a lot of costs. It was making it hard for me to invest as much as I wanted to in growth because, you know, I think as a young company, like it’s really hard to sort of build up the cash reserves that you need in order to feel really stable. So at that point I did take on some money just to sort of have some more cash in the bank, and allow us to continue to invest in the growth of the business. But… running a startup business, like I have—it’s really keeps you honest and I think that I can’t imagine like even for me now like having more money in the bank like it does fundamentally change the way you make decisions. And sometimes at some points in the business I think that’s like ok and appropriate if you know what you’re doing. But early on, I mean you’re literally just spending blindly. Like you have no idea what to spend money on, or like you just—you don’t know how to do anything. I mean you don’t know how to like spend your time or money, and that just lends itself to spending money on things you shouldn’t be spending money on. And it’s not that it’s impossible to like raise money and then do it right, but I think that it’s impossible to bootstrap it and not do it right, right? Like you can’t do it for very long if you don’t do it right. So it like really, really forces you, in such a healthy way I think, to know what the hell you’re doing—or to learn really fast. [24:16] SWB Right. There’s no pile of money sitting around that you can misuse— KL Exactly. SWB —because it’s not there [giggles]. AB Exactly. Yeah. It’s like I mean and you feel the pain. It’s like you’re looking at negative dollars and you’re like, “[Choking sound] What am I going to do to get myself out of this?” KL [Laughs] Yeah. You feel the effect right away and you have to make a decision to turn it around and—I mean the—I don’t want to say the cool thing is, because sometimes it doesn’t turn out to be cool but, you know—an interesting thing is that when you make a decision to try something else or something new you also get that feedback like right away. You’re like, [chuckles] “Ok this is working. Keep doing that.” AB Yeah. And granted like it only works for certain types of businesses and there’s other types of businesses that it’s very difficult and stuff like that, but I am really thankful for the experience, I’m really proud of having gotten through that. And I think Skillcrush is a much stronger company today because of that fact. So I definitely would recommend it. That said, though, like, listen: it’s true, nobody give you a—you know like I was profitable, like, I don’t know, maybe my third year in business or no, my second—or whatever. My first, my second full year of business and like nobody gives you a parade for that. And then you raise like a Series A and everyone’s like, “You’re amazing!” So like, I don’t know… I get it. KL That’s totally true. SWB It also seems to me like that’s sort of part of the problem [AB yeah] with like the tech industry and sort of like, what it chooses to celebrate and not celebrate. and what kinds of incentives that gives people. [25:40] AB Yeah, I mean listen: if we want to get real cynical, I think the tech industry is premised on like wealth consolidation, and like, what are you rewarding at the end of the day? Like some VC invests a bunch of money and then sells the company. Who is actually benefiting from that, right? Like I don’t—I don’t know. So yes. So I think there’s like some fundamental problems with what the tech industry and what our world values. I could not agree with you more. SWB Well, totally. You know what, though, I don’t think—I mean—I don’t actually perceive that as cynical, or maybe I don’t know maybe I’m just cynical, but I perceive that as being sort of like celebrating other ways of doing things. And, you know, like speaking of that, I’m actually really curious. I mean you kind of went around building the business a little differently than what some other people in tech might’ve done, but also the message and the sort of positioning of Skillcrush has been pretty different too. I mean you mentioned that when you mentioned the SXSW launch and sort of going up and trying to make it approachable for women, and I’m wondering if we can talk more about that. Like, how do you see Skillcrush as being different than other code bootcamps or academies and things like that that are out there? AB So [sighs]… I—it’s funny. I had an interesting conversation with a founder of another bootcamp and he was basically asking me, like, how do you—you know, because I think a lot of the other bootcamps struggle to attract women. And like our audience is 80 percent women. And we’re, you know, we’re literally enrolling hundreds of women a month. So it’s like they’re not not there, and they’re not not interested. They’re interested. And it was just funny for me because I was sort of like, “Oh it’s so simple.” And at the same time, like, you’d have to change everything about what you do. I think—like I can tell you how we do it in a million different details and sort of how we execute on it, but I think fundamentally it’s that the mission of our organization is focused on this audience: it’s women who are looking to make a career change because they want to make more money, have more flexibility, be more creatively, you know, fulfilled in their jobs. And we believe that by empowering them with tech skills, it’ll give them a lot more opportunities they don’t currently have. And we want, you know, to help them sort of make that transition. So then what that means is that like… we start everything from that premise. Like I mean we actually literally have a persona and she has a name and everything is like, “Is this what she would want?” Right? Does she want this class? Does she want this color? Does she want this design? Does she—like would she resonate with this imagery? Like so it’s just like it’s completely baked into every aspect of how we run the company. And—and I mean I would go as far as like to a certain extent like—I mean [sighs]… this is where like the persona and me I guess get a little conflated but like [chuckles] you know the company also is sort of—we want to build the company that would be a company that she would want to work for. Right? That is—that sort of does right by our people in the way that we think that like, you know, they should be done right by. So yeah it just… it’s just how—it’s the air we breathe. [28:32] SWB I’m thinking about even just a really tangible way that this plays out. You know I was taking a look at… how you talk about Skillcrush like on the website and I was looking at the reviews that you have, and I was noticing the difference between… what I see there versus like what I see on like a lot of these kind of bootcamp sites which is a lot of those feel so sort of like aggressive, like that you get out and you’re immediately this like coding rockstar who’s going to get this six-figure salary and I think, you know, that may well be true for somebody who comes out of the program, too, that they’re going to end up getting a great salary, but there was a lot more message of like, this very achievable feeling of like, “Yeah, I was able to transition into a job in tech doing support and then I was able grow that from there into this bigger position,” and it feels a little bit more like realistic? Maybe. Or a little bit more… just not—not so aggressive in that—in that like super… domineering way. AB Yeah I mean I think there’s a lot of culture in tech that I really struggle with, which is very much about virtuosity and [exhales sharply] sort of extreme technical ability, extreme, you know, you want to be the best coder ever! Who knows like the most languages! And like so fancy, and have like a really tight hierarchy of like what technical skills are valuable and which ones are not valuable. And fundamentally that is not a message that resonates with our audience. Like if we were like, “We’re the single best, most advanced, most intense place to learn Python,” like our audience would not come to us because that’s just not what they’re looking for. And I think like that is a huge distinction that I think differentiates us from everyone else basically, and I think that’s kind of what you’re speaking to. And I will say, too, like (and this is anecdotal) but like we do have male students and we also will get a lot of male students who will look at our programs, and it’s so funny because like… it’s so different in talking to them. And they tend to be much more interested, like they’ll really like hammer on our customer support of like, “What languages do you teach?” Like, “How do you teach them?” “How updated are they?” “What version are they?” Like all this stuff. And that just isn’t, you know, with our core audience it’s much more about what you can do with it rather than like kind of like how hardcore and how like legit are my skills going to be when I walk away from this program. And like, we still are legit. And like teach awesome stuff but, you know, that’s kind of not necessarily like our number one value proposition. SWB Yeah I like this idea that—that there’s lots of ways to do tech. Like there’s lots of ways to work in tech and like, sure, you might be the kind of person who wants this like super intense kind of thing but… there’s so much work to be done in tech and there’s so many interesting problems to solve that like you don’t have to be that person to find like a really cool career in the field which I like—I like that that message is coming through. I love that so much. AB Yeah I mean I think again, you know, fundamentally like our audience is not sitting around being like, “The most important thing to me is that I work in tech.” That’s just not what they’re motivated by. Like they are motivated by, you know, having a career that is more fulfilling to them in like, you know, in lots of different ways. Whether that is that it’s creative and flexible or that they make more money, I mean whatever, you know, that can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people. And kind of the role that we’re playing is saying, “Listen: like tech is not even like a career. It is the career,” you know what I mean? Like it’s—it is the world we live in. And the more empowered you are from a technical perspective, the more choice you’re going to have, and the more options you’re going to have, and the more power you’re going to have, frankly. And this is kind of that moment. Like it’s like the industrial revolution or something, it’s like if you don’t sort of get on the bandwagon now, like there’s just a—there’s a lot to lose, potentially. And so, you know, we’re trying to—you know, trying to sort of bridge that gap. [32:25] KL Yeah. That makes so much sense and in making tech, you know, and sort of this whole world more approachable for women do you—do you like ever worry that they’ll, you know, what they’ll encounter in the culture when they get there? AB If I thought that the only that you could take advantage of the skills that we’re teaching you is to go work at a tech company, I think I would feel a lot more conflicted about what we do. But from my perspective like and, you know, and I say this partially from my own experience and also from, you know, just what I have observed and also just, you know, reading lots of data on jobs and where they’re moving. Like I don’t think that the only way that tech skills is useful to somebody is like to go work in the tech industry in sort of traditional like quote/unquote like “development” job. And I have major concerns about people who go do that and I definitely like would caution anyone. I mean, you know, and to go in with open eyes. Like I think—and I think [sighs]… it’s complicated like obviously I want women to have those jobs and I want more women to be in those roles but I also think fundamentally like, you know, it’s the big, I don’t know, you know, I’m just going to throw out some names here. Not to just single out any single company but at the end of the day I really do fundamentally believe that it’s like Google, and Apple, and Facebook, and all those, and Uber, like they’re the ones who have the most to lose by not diversifying their workforce and I don’t want to promote an idea of a like—I don’t believe in the idea that like… we should be begging them for jobs or begging them to like—like I fundamentally think that what’s amazing about the internet is that it really does democratize and distribute the power in a way that is kind of unprecedented in human history, and I’m about like distributing that power, and I don’t necessarily think that anyone should feel like they’re at the whim of some, you know, sexist tech company’s culture. KL Well, speaking of that like what [exhales sharply] what could change there in terms of I don’t know, like, this industry and those people just being, you know, better at supporting more diverse folks coming into it? AB Honestly, like I don’t know that I’m always like the best person to comment on this. I mean I can tell you like the things that we think about in terms of like how we create our company to try to combat bias, you know? And from a structural perspective: it’s hard. Like I get that. You have to do things that are not sexy. Like, you know, a big thing we did was institute these salary tiers where we really kind of worked really hard to equalize people’s salaries, and not—it doesn’t mean everyone makes the same amount, but like sort of create really strict standards of how we divvy up salaries and decide on salaries. And I mean I think it’s super sexy, but like from an individual’s perspective it’s not. It means you can’t, like, maximize your salary at Skillcrush. Like that’s not something that’s going to happen to an individual because we think about it from like sort of the collective perspective. So I think, you know, it’s about really reexamining the values of what these companies are going after. [35:18] KL Yeah totally. AB And that’s hard. SWB I’m so into this idea of like thinking about it from the collective perspective, I mean if you are working in a traditional environment where nobody is thinking about it from the collective perspective, like obviously you kind of gotta like… get yours or whatever. Like that—that ends up being like a mindset you have to get into to survive there. But if you are in a company where there’s this collective feeling in where you do have a sense that people are in it together. I think that you can approach situations totally differently. I love that. AB Yeah. I mean I think the thing is like from an employer’s perspective like everything is collective actually, right? Like I—like, you know, and this is based in my actual experience: like if I negotiate with someone and they negotiate an extra like $30,000 for their salary. That’s $30,000 dollars I can’t pay someone else or pay another like three people or whatever or raises I can’t give or bonuses. Like there is—it is a zero-sum game. I don’t have endless amounts amounts of money and I guess what I became really concerned with personally was pay equity, which I think is what you’re addressing, right? Like when you don’t have standardization and you don’t have pay equity then yeah, you should just basically try to get everything you can for yourself because like otherwise you’re just a sucker [laughing]. It’s like getting the short end of the stick. But I just, I mean like, I’m like whoever would think that that would create like a good structural outcome? KL Yeah. SWB Right, like, that’s more about like how do I—how do I like… exist in this environment or this culture in this system that is not like actually designed in any sort of healthy way, versus what would a system look like that was actually, you know, going to be like positive and good for people. And those are such fundamentally different questions that I think maybe we don’t spend enough time like parsing out, like, the difference between those things. [37:10] AB Yeah. Absolutely. KL So we were reading an interview with you where you talked about how you get out of a rut, and part of your answer was sometimes you, quote, “Must surrender and trust that you won’t feel so uninspired forever,” and we—we just really loved that like, you know, getting caught up in the idea of forward momentum and I think so many of us do that. That, you know, that kind of like unrelenting [laughs] you know push that you feel. Like how, I don’t know, how do you—like how do you deal with that? AB I think step one is always acknowledging it, right? Like I think that it was a big revelation for me just to be like, my role at this company has really changed, and I don’t get to be the person coming up with all the big ideas all the time. You know, and I really miss that, and I don’t—I don’t really have a solution for it. It’s been really helpful for me to talk to other people. Like I have a mentor who sort of gave me warning. He was like, you know, like, “You know like when you get up to like 30 to 50 people,” and we’re at 35 right now, he was like, “A lot of founders wake up and realize they hate their [laughing] lives and hate their companies,” because it’s just this, like, weight. It’s like all the fun parts are drained out of it, and like now all you do is like bureaucratic stuff, and for a lot of people that’s not why they got into the business at all. And that can be a real challenge. And that was kind of a warning he gave me and, you know, I don’t hate my company, but it was good for me to sort of have some warning that that wasn’t—that was like very normal. KL Yeah some perspective that you’re like, “Ok, I’m not the only one going through this.” Well, ok, so we’ve got one last question because we know we’re running out of time. But so, what would you tell someone who is considering building their own company or, you know, starting something new like that? AB It’s really funny because I feel like I do get asked this question a lot and I meet with people and it’s funny because it’s like I feel like I’m always like there to rain on their parade. And that’s so not what I want to do [KL chuckles] because I’m like, “No! You absolutely should go for it. It’s awesome.” So I—let me start by saying that: like you should totally go for it. It’s totally awesome. It’s completely—I think something that’s really important for people to understand is like there is a method to the madness. Like there is a way to make it much more likely that you will succeed. You know? It’s not just luck. And then, you know, and then to rain on your parade: I would say that like, you know, fundamentally—and this is something I say to people and they don’t like, but I will say it anyway—you at some point have to decide whether you are more attached to running a successful business or more attached to like realizing the vision that you had for your business. And in a perfect world and actually like I will say for myself like Skillcrush exceeds my expectations like by like a factor of like, you know, 25. Like it’s—I’m so proud of the company I’ve built and the product and there’s so many aspects of it that I couldn’t have even—like that I literally just would never have known to do, and that are so phenomenal. And like going on that journey has been, outside of like marrying my husband, the best thing that ever happened to me. But I think that like it’s successful from a business standpoint because at some point I decided that I wanted the business to survive and I was going to figure out what it would take for it to survive and do that. And that really meant sort of letting go of kind of any idea I had about what the business was going to be, and really base it on, you know: what was the problem? Who was the customer? And how was I going to solve their problem? And I think when I say that to people like they hear it as me telling that their like baby’s ugly or like they need to throw out their baby or whatever which I understand why they see that way but I really believe it’s about like letting go of like your vision of your baby, and like trusting in the process to like bring you an even better baby [laughter] and like I don’t know how much longer I can stretch this baby analogy but uh—but I just—yeah. I just think that like you—it’s like being in business is—like to really, really fundamentally be in business, it’s a lot of like really, really painful, hard choices that in the end, I think if you like come at it from the right perspective and don’t just like become a diet pill company or something like that, it will lead to like a much better outcome than you could’ve even imagined on your own. But I think it’s a very humbling process. [41:30] SWB Thank you so much for being on the show! This has been sooo interesting, and helpful, and thoughtful, and I am so glad we could have you. AB Yeah, no, it’s so good. No, thank you! [Music fades in, plays alone for two seconds, fades out.] Fuck Yeah of the Week KL So it’s time for one of my favorite parts of the show: The Fuck Yeah of the Week. Jenn, can you tell us what that is? JL I can, Katel. How about fuck yeah, mornings! Question mark?!? SWB Ugh!! Are you sure?!? JL I’m not sure. But I am sure and I’m going to try to be sure. I’ve been trying to dig into more about this whole morning-people thing that I’ve been hearing so much about my whole life. And I—I’m not so much a morning person, and I—right now I’m not an anything person because I’m sleep deprived and with a one-year-old, the mornings are the nights, and it’s all the same. But even before that I only dabbled in and out of being a morning person, but I feel like I’ve always had that pressure to like want to be a morning person. You know? I get it. It’s great. Sunshine. Do a bunch of stuff. It sounds amazing. Right? Like get stuff done before work, enjoy the coffee, there’s so many things about the mornings that are awesome, right? There’s so many things that like, fuck yeah, mornings! But there’s still something about the mornings some days that you get up and you’re just like, “Ugh! Mornings [laughs].” So I’ve been trying to think about how to more fuck yeah, mornings! And one of the things I read recently that I really liked was that… when you get up instead of being like, “Ugh, you know, I didn’t sleep well,” or, “I’ve got this thing to do.” Instead ask yourself: what am I looking forward to today? And I love that, so the other day I got up and then I said to myself, “I’m so looking forward to seeing my friends today,” and when I like reframed the morning like that to then think about the positive things that were coming up, it completely flipped the script. So it like switched how I was going to look at the rest of that day and all of a sudden I was like… “Fuck yeah, morning!” [43:36] KL I like that so much. I—I think of myself as more of a morning person than like a, you know, a night owl, but I still find it like over this winter it’s just been, you know, extra hard getting up and it’s dark and all that. But I always love like the first coffee [mmmm]. And there’s something about it that like always gets me—I’m just like, “Yes, if I can just like get to that, it’s all going to be good [laughs].” JL Something I started doing a few years ago was not waiting to get to work to have my first cup of [KL yeah!] but making sure that I woke up and had that cup of coffee at home. So that like I could really enjoy it and didn’t feel like I was rushing all around. So I’ve always made sure, even like with changes in schedule, that I have at least 15 minutes to enjoy that cup of coffee and have that be my time. KL That’s so funny. That reminds me of—and this like a while ago but my sister at one point I—I just like hadn’t realized that she did this, and she was like, yeah, you know, she and her husband would like—they would go get out of bed, make coffee, and then get back in bed, and drink the coffee in bed and just like sit there for 10 or 15 minutes like enjoying coffee! And I was like, “That sounds amazing!!!” I was like, “Oh my god. Why am I not doing that?!?” SWB You should’ve all seen my face when Jenn said that she realized that she didn’t have to like wait till she was at work to have the first coffee [laughter] and I’m like, “I don’t understand. How did you get to work?” But like how did you move your person from your home… ? [Laughter] But anyway so like ok, there’s that. But also I really think like—I don’t think of myself as a morning person necessarily. Like I can drag myself up and out for something early when I need to and occasionally for like an early workout when I don’t think I can do it later or something like that, but I kind of like to, you know… wake up a little more slowly and like not have to talk to anybody right away [laughs]. Like I don’t have to be a morning person, necessarily, to still say like, “Oh! But I can find some joy in what’s coming up that day,” right? Like you don’t have to transform yourself. You don’t have to wake up smiling, you can still be kind of dragging ass, but you can also say, like, “Ooh! What do I have to look forward to today?” And I’m—that’s a habit that I want to start getting into so that I don’t go into the day like with that general sense of dread and [laughing] foreboding and instead identify something good that I’m looking forward to that day. And if I don’t have anything to look forward to at all that day, then maybe I should take a moment in the morning and come up with something because— [46:04] KL Yeah! SWB —like if you don’t have anything coming up in the day that you can be like, “That’s going to be good. That’s going to be my time,” [inhales sharply]… maybe that’s the problem… maybe it was never the morning’s fault. KL Maybe we can all learn to love mornings. JL You know this is like what we’ve talked about before where sometimes you just like—like with salary numbers in one of our previous episodes we were saying, you know, if you’re going to go in for a salary negotiation, keep saying the number that you’re going to ask for until like you sound confident in it. So maybe if I just keep repeating over and over again… “Fuck, yeah, mornings! Fuck yeah, [laughs] mornings! Fuck. Yeah. Mornings!” Until I really really believe and then it will happen [laughter]. KL I believe it. Fuck yeah, mornings. SWB I’m a little unconvinced but I’m going to say—I—I’m going to say, fuck yeah to taking a moment to think about things I’m looking forward to on any given day because: fuck yeah, I like looking forward to things. KL Yes. JL Fuck yeah! SWB Well, I think that wraps up this week’s episode of No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia, and produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. Thanks to Adda Birnir for being our guest today. Be sure to check out “I Love That,” our new, biweekly newsletter. Sign up at noyougoshow.com/ilovethat. And if you like what you’ve been hearing, we’d love if you’d give us a review on whatever podcast app you use. We’ll be back next week! See you then [music fades in, plays alone for 30 seconds, fades out to end].

It’s not every day we chat with someone the New York Times has listed as part of “the new vanguard” in fiction. But today’s our day: Carmen Maria Machado is live on NYG! We sit down with the badass author, National Book Award finalist, and fellow Philly resident for a conversation about writing, working retail, believing in your own work, craving the company of other women, and so much more. > The art of non-dominant groups can be trendy, but we think of men and whiteness and straightness as, like, eternal… And of course that’s fake, right? Like, that’s not real: men, and white, and straight, and cis, and all those things… are not neutral, but we think of them as neutral. > —Carmen Maria Machado, author, Her Body and Other Parties Here’s what we cover: The “fat women with fat minds” of Carmen’s “The Trash Heap Has Spoken” essay in Guernica How a retreat at the Millay Colony for the Arts kickstarted her writing career The wild popularity of “The Husband Stitch,” Carmen’s story in Granta (which, like, just read it already) What it’s like to go from working at the mall to full-fledged famous author in a few short years The exploitative mess of the adjunct teaching market Carmen’s review of Danielle Lazarin’s new book, Backtalk, and how women internalize the “slow, invisible grind” of misogyny Why Claire Vaye Watkins’ essay “On Pandering” and Kristen Roupenian’s short story “Cat Person” struck such a nerve Craving the company of women in a culture full of far too much bullshit Finding the confidence to divest from sexist culture, take up space, and acknowledge your talents out loud Plus: why city snobbery is bullshit, the incredible joys and health benefits of naps (seriously, just thinking about a nap can even lower your blood pressure)—and why y’all should just visit Philly already. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re talking about. WordPress—the place to build your personal blog, business site, or anything else you want on the web. WordPress helps others find you, remember you, and connect with you. _ _ Transcript Katel LeDû [Ad spot] Shopify is leveling the playing field for entrepreneurs with software that helps anyone with a great idea build a successful business. More than 50 percent of the business owners they power are women—across 175 countries. And they’re growing their world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers to find out how they work [music fades in, ramps up, plays alone for ten seconds.] Jenn Lukas Hi! And welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KL I’m Katel LeDû. Sara Wachter-Boettcher And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. Today on No, You Go we’re talking with one of my favorite authors, Carmen Maria Machado. This first book of stories, Her Body and Other Parties, was just listed as one of 15 remarkable books by women that are shaping the way we read and write fiction in the 21st century by the New York Times. Like, seriously. Carmen’s also a Writer in Residence at the University of Pennsylvania, which means she lives right here in Philly. And that got me thinking a lot about place. You know, like in a lot of industries we sort of expect people who are ambitious to live in a specific location. Like, you’re a writer, gotta move to New York! Oh you’re in tech? Well why aren’t you in San Francisco? But, like, Philly is great. There’s so much amazing stuff happening here, and I wish more people knew that. JL Ugh! I love Philadelphia. You should see the Philadelphia tattoo I have across my abs. Just kidding [all laughing]. KL I was like, “What?!? Show me!!!” SWB My god. JL But I do in spirit. In spirit it’s there. Just, uh, just Ben Franklin hanging out [KL chuckles] eating a—Ben Franklin eating a pretzel right on my bicep. KL Love it. Very on brand [laughs]. SWB Can we all get like matching Ben Franklin eating a pretzel tattoos? KL Or just like a Liberty Bell? Something small, tasteful. SWB What do you love so much about Philly, Jenn? JL Ugh. I’ve been in Philadelphia for… woah. 18 years? SWB Wow! KL Woah! JL How’d that happen? [2:04] SWB Like your whole adult life! JL Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. And at first I didn’t love Philadelphia. I came here from Boston and I was just like, “Why—what am I doing still in the cold?” I guess is what I was thinking. And, I don’t know, I felt like there’s just something that wasn’t great and then within like two years it just grew on me. I loved that it’s flat, it’s cheap, and it’s got a lot of great people, and so much good food. But it’s got that—Philadelphia has this interesting thing in that uh it has like, people will say like this inferiority complex of a city of where, you know, we’re between DC, New York, Boston, and always something to prove. I feel like there’s a lot of that which I think has led to a lot of great innovation. A lot of people just like building lots of stuff to be like, “No, look! Look at all this amazing things that like that we have here.” I had the chance once to work for visitphilly.com website, which was probably one of the best projects I ever worked on because there was just having a chance every day to come in and work on something that showcased our fine city. And I think it’s so important to have pride in where you live, because it’s where you [chuckles] spend your time. KL I feel like—I lived in New York for five years of my life, like my late twenties, and I loved it, it was great. And coming from DC it was sort of like I got the sense that people were kind of like, “Oh, you finally moved to like a real city,” which totally felt like not at all. And then when I got back to DC after living in New York, people were kind of like, “Why would you ever leave New York?” And there are, you know, personally a lot—a million reasons why I left New York. I feel like it’s odd to get that reaction depending on where you live. And when I was in DC for that second time, I was working at National Geographic. So when I told people where I worked they were like, “Oh! Well that’s amazing.” And I’m like, “Yeah. That’s where HQ is. It’s in DC.” Like— SWB I think one of the things that’s so frustrating to me about talking places is that—is that kind of reaction that you’re talking about, that like, “Oh! You live there!?” I remember this one time I was having brunch with a friend of a friend in New York, we were in Brooklyn, and she—this woman, I didn’t know her very well, she asked me where I lived, and I said I lived in Philly, and she goes, “Oh Philly? Well, it’s a good starter city for New York.” And I looked at her and I was just like, I just like dead-eyed her, and I was like, “Or it’s a place that people live by choice?” It was so—it was just like one of those throwaway comments for her, because in her head, her assumption was like basically everybody was just trying to move to New York, and, like, you would only live somewhere else if you like couldn’t make it in New York or whatever. And I’m like, “I don’t want to live in New York.” I like New York. It’s fine. But I—what I think is—is important to remember and I think about this a lot for the podcast is like there are people doing awesome shit literally everywhere, and one of the things that we can do is do a better job of seeking that out. You know? Finding folks in all kinds of places. Like, way back I think in our second episode we talked to Eileen Webb who lives in northern New Hampshire and is doing all of this awesome work on accessibility, and strategy, and the web, and like… she lives on a farm. And like why not? Why the hell not? Why can’t we look at people doing great stuff everywhere. [5:25] SWB [Continued] So that brings me back to something that I loved about talking with Carmen, who is doing this amazing work as an author and becoming like straight up a famous writer. And she’s right here in Philly! And I suspect in like all kinds of cities out there you would find people who are just like top of their game in their fields, working from all kinds of unexpected places. JL And not just cities. I mean more rural areas, towns, I think one of the things that we always have to keep in mind that we do here is that there’s things about Philly that I love, obviously, and then there’s things about Philly that I don’t like, and that’s true of any place. And so I think the trick is finding that balance of someplace that you really like to be that helps you be the best you. KL Thinking about the idea of a “starter city” assumes that, you know, everyone has the same resources or lifestyle that would allow you to just like move wherever you want to go and move to, you know, a really potentially expensive city or place that, you know, you might just not have the resources that kind of work in that area that you can—that you can really have access to. So, I don’t know, I think it’s—I want to pay more attention to, like Sara said, you know, the work that people are doing that aren’t on the coasts or aren’t, in the places that we know are networks and all of our friends are. I think it’s kinda cool that we start looking at that. SWB Well, with that, can we go ahead and get to the interview because I am super hyped to have everybody listen to this interview with Carmen. KL Agh! I can’t wait [music fades in, ramps up, plays alone for four seconds, ramps down]. KL [Ad spot] We want to be able to share our voices our way through our website, and we use WordPress to help us do that because it gives us freedom and flexibility. Make your site your own when you build it with WordPress. They offer powerful ecommerce options from a simple yet effective buy button to a complete online store, and WordPress customer support is there for you 24/7 to help you get your site working smoothly. Plans start at just four dollars per month, so start building your website today. Go to wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off any new plan purchase. That’s wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off your brand new website [music fades in, ramps up, plays alone for four seconds, fades out]. SWB Over a year ago I read this amazing essay in Guernica called “The Trash Heap Has Spoken” about women refuse to apologize for taking up space. “Fat woman with fat minds”, as the author, Carmen Maria Machado, put it. It was a gorgeous essay and it’s one that I actually still think about all the time. So when her book came out last year I devoured it immediately. Fast forward just a few months and Her Body and Other Parties, a book of stories that defy genre, that are fantastical, and erotic, and queer, and just were really captivating to me, has been awarded about a zillion prizes. It’s been a bestseller, it was a finalist for the National Book Award, and somehow, despite all of that huge success, we still managed to get Carmen Maria Machado here to be interviewed on No, You Go. And literally she is here today. She is in our studio, also known as my office in south Philadelphia, and I am extremely excited to chat with her and also a little bit nervous [laughter]. Carmen, welcome to No, You Go. [8:33] Carmen Maria Machado Thank you for having me. SWB So, first up, ok, after I read that essay in Guernica I found out that you went to college with a friend of the show, Lara Hogan. And she said that you did photography together. So, first up, like when did you start pursuing writing as a career, and sort of what was that path for you? CMM Yeah! Well, I’ve always sort of—I’ve been a writer or a person who writes, or sort of organizes her mind around writing, for my entire life. I’ve been that way since I was a kid. Um and when I got to college I thought to my—like I wanted to be a journalist, that was sort of my way out. Like, “Oh, I’ll have health insurance and also, you know, have a job, and like be a writer.” And of course this was like 2004, I got to school, I started journalism classes and I did not like them. I was like, “This is not me, I don’t like—I do not have a nose for news. I don’t like hunting news stories. I don’t like talking to people on the phone.” Like all of these things that would be required of me as a journalist are things that just bore me or make me too anxious, and I don’t want to do it, even though I like writing. So I sort of moved around, I switched majors a few times. I was like lit for a hot second, and then I switched to something else, and then finally I took a photography class and I absolutely loved, and so I ended up getting like an independent study major where I sort of combined a lot of things including writing and photography and fine arts, where I met Lara. And so, yeah, so then like I had this idea of like being a photographer [smacks lips] that did not last for long [laughs] but I’ve never supported myself doing it. I worked all kinds of jobs [chuckles] um it’s just never been a thing that really like worked out for me. So I have a really nice Instagram account. That’s like the way that my student loans that I’m still paying off [laughing] that’s what they’re still going towards is a really well curated Instagram account and that’s about it. And then after school I was living in California, just sort of working some random jobs, and it wasn’t until I went to grad school which would’ve been in 2010 that I really started thinking about writing as a career, and as a thing that I could pursue sort of more professionally. SWB And you were in grad school in Iowa, right? [10:30] CMM Yes. Mm hmm. SWB What was that experience because it’s a pretty intense program, right? CMM Yeah I mean it’s the—so it’s the oldest program in the country which is sort of where it gets its reputation from. Um, you know, there’s a lot of really wonderful who’ve gone there. Uh I had a really good time. It was really nice to be able to go to a program that was funded, that I was able to just like write, and like not have to worry about work, and not have to worry about anything else. Like I was just—I had to do a little bit of teaching which also was nice because then I discovered that I really liked teaching um which before I did not realize. SWB Speaking of teaching [mm hmm], I saw that after grad school you had ended up kind of back in the Philly area, adjuncting uh while also working at the mall, and—and I’m curious like when do you feel like it all started to come together for you, career wise? CMM That’s a really good question. I mean it sort of happened in stages. So while I was in grad school, I— through a friend I met my now wife and we were dating long distance and decided after I was finished that we wanted to move in together wherever we would live. So she was living in Boston at the time, I was living in Iowa City, and we decided to do—to come to Philadelphia because it was like an affordable city we could live in and we had both—she had lived here before, I had never had but I grew up in Allentown. So not too far away. So yeah so we got here and in the beginning I mean, yeah, I was really struggling. Like she was working full-time and was more or less supporting us. I was, you know, adjuncting and working a retail job, and making like barely anything. I was really struggling. Yeah, I was going to King of Prussia mall… I was driving back and forth every week. And it was horrible. And I was very stressed out and sad and was, you know, sort of plugging away at some work, and was just writing some stories and, I don’t know, feeling like maybe I had made a mistake, or maybe like writing wasn’t in the cards for me professionally. And… it was really hard to write because I was physically exhausted all the time, just from the—from standing like teaching, you know, it is exhausting in its own way but like with working at the mall, I was just like on my feet all day, I was driving really really far back and forth and I was exhausted. So um at some point I applied for a writing residency at the Millay Colony for the Arts which is up in upstate New York and I got in for a session. So I quit my job, went there for a month, and like wrote a bunch of stuff. And that actually got me [smacks lips] back in this really nice headspace where I suddenly found myself able to be like, “I have a whole book here, and I can just kind of get it all pulled together.” And so I had written this story called “The Husband Stitch,” which is probably my most famous short story. I have a friend—someone has called it my hit single [laughter and laughing:] Like it is kind of like my hit single. It’s like the story people usually know of mine and so, yeah, and I had an agent at this point, and I sent it to him, and he submitted it to magazines and Granta ended up picking it up. And putting it on their website. And so that became—that was sort of like the trying point for me because that story did really well, people really responded to it, because it was online people were able to share it, and there was like a lot of sort of movement around that story. And, in fact, I believe last year they told me it was still their most read story at their website. But even though it’s three years old. Like it’s been out for three years but like, they were like, “Oh yeah, no, like there’s just a ton of traffic to that story. It’s like—it’s like a really highly trafficked page on the site.” So um so yeah so that was sort of the moment, like once I had that, and then I started putting together this collection and then, yeah, in about a year. So that would’ve been in 2014, so then I sold the book in 2015. Like in the fall. [14:03] CMM [Continued] So yeah and then once that happened and then I started—and then got like this offer at Penn where I’m now the Writer in Residence. So I suddenly had a teaching job where I had like health insurance. And like [laughs] a living salary [laughs], and like all these other things. Um and that was pretty awesome. So… so yeah. So that’s—it just ended up sort of working out nicely where that became like the place where my career sort of turned, and people started to pay attention, and sort of knew who I was, and everything has sort of followed from there. SWB And I think for listeners who don’t know about the adjunct teaching market, it’s a, I don’t know, exploitative nightmare. I would say [chuckles]. So like if you’re curious what the difference is between adjuncting and having a fellowship at Penn where you have benefits, it’s like night and day. A lot of adjuncts are contingent faculty and it’s like a couple thousand dollars a semester to teach a course, and you end up making, I don’t know, probably less than minimum wage at a lot of places? CMM Oh—oh absolutely! Absolutely you’re making less than that, because like you usually have office hours, and all the grading, everything you do outside of class, and prepping for class. Yeah, no, it’s actually really bad. And it’s funny because I think sometimes students—I’ll ask occasionally like see if students have a sense of what adjuncts—like who they are or what their situation is, and even now they really don’t. And, you know, when I was in college I also did not understand what adjuncts were. Like I had adjuncts and I didn’t realize it because like to a student it’s like, “Oh you’re my teacher! Like what’s the difference?” Well it’s like, oh the difference is huge. Like adjuncts are, you know, often like broke as hell, like they’re getting food stamps and they can like barely make ends meet. So, yeah, it’s like really—it’s one of those—you know it’s a labor issue that’s like getting a lot of traction and like in Philadelphia they’re actually like the—there’s an adjunct union that’s been um unionizing various schools and they’ve been actually pretty successful which is pretty awesome but, yeah, it’s a bad situation for sure. SWB And I’m curious like you mentioned that you really loved teaching and was it difficult to balance out this feeling of like loving teaching but knowing that you’re doing it in this like kind of exploitative environment where you—you can’t actually make a living off of it? [15:58] CMM Yeah, I mean I think the hardest thing for me was that I couldn’t be there for my students in the way I wanted to be because I was just—it was just unpaid labor. So like… you know like I would grade, and I would do workshops, and I would prep lectures, and I would all this stuff, but then like if a student wanted like more feedback on something, like I wasn’t getting paid for that, you know? And so I had to say no to things. And the students didn’t understand, and some of them would be like, “Well, why can’t you do that thing for me? Like you’re my teacher.” And I was like, “Well, in normal circumstances, yes, certainly, like you know?” Yes, as a teacher, like for example if a student come to you for like a letter of recommendation or something like that—that’s part of the process, right? Of being a teacher. Is being like, “Yes, like I am at least open to the idea of writing a letter of recommendation,” for example. Um or like, “Talking to you, you know, within the semester about certain things.” Um but when you’re an adjunct like all bets are off because you’re not making any—You’re making, yeah, 3,000 dollars a class. Right? So it’s like what are you supposed to do? Like how are you supposed to like value and manage your time? That part is really, really hard and—and when students don’t understand that—and you can’t just say like, “Oh, by the way, like I’m an adjunct. Like your school does not care enough to like pay me a living wage and you need to take that up with them. It has nothing to do with me.” You know? Um so I think it’s a combination of like just because students don’t know um and then yeah, and then just like trying to decide like where do you value your time, you know, if you’re a good teacher like you want to be there for your students. Like you want to be able to help them during the semester in the way that you can but yeah like when you’re not making money or—I’m just giving them free time. Like I’m not… you know I’m not doing—So yeah it’s a bad, it’s a really bad situation. SWB Well, so your situation has changed pretty [chuckles][yeah] dramatically since then and I would like to talk about that. So, in addition to be being a National Book Award Finalist which I like to say over and over again because I think it’s fucking awesome [laughter]. Um you were just called part of “the New Vanguard” by the New York Times… uh what’s—what’s that like? CMM [Chuckles] That—well that was shock—that I was—I mean nothing that’s happened to me have I—have I expected any of it. Like if you told me like, “Oh, your weird, genre-bending short story collection that’s going to be out from an independent press is going to like do just crazily well in every respect.” I would’ve never ever ever, in a million years, I would’ve been like, “You’re crazy. That’s ridiculous. There’s no way.” Um but yeah everything that’s been happening and then, yeah, that New York Times piece where they were sort of talking about like women writers of the 21st century who have like—who are sort of showing us how we read and write—like and that my book being one of those 15 books is just completely unbelievable [chuckles]. Um— SWB So, I mean when that happens, I assume you also have a lot of sudden like demands on your time and attention. How do you negotiate that? Like how do you figure out what you’re gonna say yes to? [18:41] CMM Oh, that’s a really good question. I mean you have to, like I’m learning to be more protective of my time. The thing is that what’s weird in the beginning was that, you know, I wasn’t sure how the book was gonna do and so I said yes to everything. And then at some point you have to—right, decided like I’m not going to do this, or I’m not going to do this. And I was lucky that my wife is actually very—she’s brilliant. And very, very good at knowing all my weak spots. So, for example, this spring, she made me build in three weekends where like I was not allowed to schedule anything and it was just weekends that I have off. And at the time, I was like very grouchy about that. I was like, “Oh I don’t want to do that.” But I’m so grateful that she did that because now there are weekends where I’m like, “I don’t have do anything. I can just— I can just relax. I can do laundry!” Right. I can just like do what I have to do. SWB You can have a weekend. CMM I can have a weekend! SWB That’s called a weekend. CMM Right, yeah, it’s called a weekend. Right [laughter], where I’m not traveling. But I’ve been traveling. Except for those weekends, I’ve traveled every single weekend for the last like six months. Like I’ve just been—you know, so it’s—it’s—it’s hard. And I think it’s also like remembering, right? Like it’s ok that right now I’m doing that, but then like knowing that this summer I’m going to a residency and I’m gonna go back to working because like I haven’t been writing and that’s been making me really sad. So like knowing that I have that on the horizon, you know, saying no to things. Like saying, you know, and like I sort of have a set of criteria so if I get asked to do something. It’s like, you know, do I know the person whose asking me? Is it something that I really want to do? Like I’m like, “Oh I want to be with that publication, or I want to—” You know there’s like a reason. Sometimes I think it’s just—it fun. Where it’s like, “Ooh that sounds really cool. Yeah I do want to try that.” Um so right now I’m judging this cookbook contest for Food52 and they like asked me to do it and I was like, “That’s so weird! Yes! I do want to do that!” [Laughter] Because like [laughs] I love cooking, and like they’re like, “We’ll send you these cookbooks and you can cook from them.” And there’s like a tournament—it’s like a tournament of cookbooks or whatever. And I was like, “Yeah! Yeah I do want to do that. That’s so weird.” So like I’ll say yes to that sort of thing. So it just becomes a matter of like figuring out what my priorities are, like, you know, so I sort of run every opportunity through like a little set of filters where I’m like, “Does it have this? Does it have this? Does it have this?” And I’ll say yes or no. SWB Yes I’ve had those periods. I mean I travel a lot for work things and conferences and book things and it’s like… I’m mostly pretty good at it, and then I realize, I’m like, “Oh no. I have limits.” And like I need to remember them. I used to do things like book those like multi-stop trips. Like [yeah] three stops [yeah yeah yeah] and then I realized like, I’m fucking miserable every time I do it and it was like, “What if you just didn’t do that anymore?” [Right, right] “What if you just said no to things that would require that?” And I found that—that was like when you talk about finding criteria and stuff it’s like, oh, notice those patterns. Like, “what are the patterns that are making you unhappy?” and getting rid of them. [21:19] CMM Yeah, or like I had someone once tell me like, “You should never do anything where the amount of money you’re being paid to do it, you’re not excited to go.” So like if you are like—if you’re like, “I don’t want to get on a plane, go to this place, do all this work, get uh go on a plane back, lose a weekend, and it’s for like 500 bucks or whatever.” Like you know like learning what is it that you actually want. Um what is worth it to you to like get out of the house or like and like leave your loved ones, and like get a on a fucking airplane which is like it’s fucking hell, [laughter and laughing] you know? SWB Yeah, I mean I also feel like um I definitely will say yes to things sometimes. I—I don’t do this anymore, but I used to have this problem where I would say yes to something and like, as I was writing the email saying yes, I had that like tight knot in my stomach— CMM Yeah, you’re like, “I don’t want to do this.” SWB Where yeah, like deep down [yeah] I didn’t actually want to say yes. And so now I try to be way more aware and like also let those emails sit a little longer. CMM Yes! Yeah this is also a thing I’ve noticed is, right, if I like—if I like don’t answer it right away, and also like it—I sort of went through this phase where I felt a little guilty about this but I said yes to some things and then I actually thought about it and then I wrote them back and I’d write them back and I’d be like, “You know I’m so sorry. Like I know I agreed to do this yesterday but I’ve been thinking about it more and I think I actually don’t have the time.” And I did that—I did that earlier this year and I was so—I almost like cried from relief and she was—and the person was super nice about it. They were like, “Don’t even worry about it. Like you’re obviously so busy. It’s totally fine.” And then I was like so happy, I was like [cries out], “Oh I’m free! Free!” Like I could’ve been stressing about this for two weeks and instead I just like said, “Nope, actually I can’t do it. Sorry.” Uh— KL And that feeling of relief is such a huge [chuckles][right! Right!] And it’s not like—it’s not like you’re waiting until the day before this thing [right, right, exactly, exactly] is going on, it’s like you are, you know, you’re—you’re paying attention to it and you’re like, “Ok, I need to just take this—remove this from my plate and my future for, you know, whatever reasons. And that’s ok.” [23:10] SWB There’s also like just the incredible unmatched joy of canceling plans [laughter]. So good. But yeah so I read a book review the other day of yours for Danielle Lazarin’s Backtalk [mm hmm] and I would love to talk about it a little bit because in there you know you talk about how it explores the “exhausting, slow poison of masculine power, the grind of the patriarchy on even the most privileged of women,” and you pose kind of a question in there, like, “How do writers divest themselves from the pressures of the dominant culture while also addressing the burdensome weight of that dominant culture?” And I think that piece and your—your Guernica essay last year, all of those things are sort of like attempting to wrangle with internalized misogyny, on some level, um and that’s something I feel like is sort of cropping up a—a good bit among feminist writers. So I’m wondering if you could talk more about that. Like, I feel like in that article you started to… you started to answer that question a little bit of like, “How do we divest ourselves of” that internalized misogyny is like… “Don’t be pleasant or easy to teach. Look mean for the camera. Just get up and go.” What does that look like? Like how do you get up and go? CMM Ugh! That’s a really huge question. I mean I think [sighs] this is the—it’s so funny I feel like there’s this, right? This idea about like you become more conservative as you get older. And I think that’s a really weird idea because I feel like every woman I know gets more and more radical the older they get because it’s like the world—the bullshit of being a woman in today’s culture, or in any culture, or any time, or whatever, is so awful that like just the longer you’re alive, the more radical you become. So I feel like I’m way more radical in terms of like my thoughts about gender than I was like ten years ago which is amazing to me, and I think is sort of the opposite of what most people would expect. Yeah so I mean I think—yeah I think right now this topic of internalized misogyny and like I—I talk about in that essay like Claire Vaye Watkins essay “On Pandering,” and I also talk about “Cat Person” the—that story in The New Yorker. All of which also deal with concept of like internalized misogyny. So like I think what’s really interesting is that right now I have a lot of thoughts about like Hillary Clinton—like I feel—I feel like there’s like a lot of… what’s in the air right now is—is like post this election and like regardless of how you feel about… Bernie Sanders or Hillary specifically, I think we can all agree like the way that misogyny played out on this really massive scale during the election was like really traumatic for women. And I think we actually have not fully addressed that trauma and I think we just went to pure panic mode because, like Trump is president and suddenly like, you know, we just gotta get past it. But like I think there’s something about… like people talk about like women—like white women voting for Trump and I think it—that is interesting not just because obviously like it’s this way in which like race—like race alliances, racism sort of trump, no pun intended, this like gender element. And the way in which women loathe themselves so deeply, on this like deep sort of cultural level, right, that like even though Hillary Clinton is like the most privileged woman probably to ever walk the fucking planet [laughter]. That she couldn’t win that election against this like incompetent, blowhard, like caricature of a sexist guy from like an ’80s cartoon. Like that to me is just an illustration of like how broken it is. Again, regardless of how you think about her specifically. And I think that like “Cat Person” is another really good example of that, in terms of that story, like where it’s all about like… it’s like, again, not about rape exactly but it’s about like what does it mean that like women—it’s like easier to have sex with a man that you’re not really that into than to like say no and walk away… because it is! And like I have been there. I have personally been there. Where it’s like [absolutely!], “I don’t want to do this.” And most women I know have been there where there like, “I really don’t want to do this but I’d rather like just not have to deal with not saying no.” And literally like that Stormy Daniels interview, I don’t know if you guys have watched it but like— [27:06] SWB I specifically did not watch it but I read about it later. But yeah that’s kinda the story too, right, it’s like, [crosstalk] “Well, I might as well do this ’cause…” CMM He’s like, “Were you attracted to him?” And she was like, “Oh no!” It’s just like [laughs] and then she was like—and then he was like, “Well, why’d you do it?” And she’s like, “Well I found myself like, ‘Here I am, like I’m stupid enough to get into his room like I might as well just like do this.’” And it’s the same like absolute like res—where it’s like ugh the resolve. It’s like, “I can’t fight this anymore. Like it just is what it is. It’s easier to have sex with this totally odious man than it to like just get out of here because he could do god knows what.” And so I feel like there’s something about that that’s really interesting and I feel like the Claire Vaye Watkins essay, again, dealing with with this idea of like women trying to align themselves with men which I think is also like a massive problem that we don’t really talk about a lot. And I feel like this narrative of sort of like, you know, women being like, “I’m just one of the guys!” I’m like I knew a woman like that in college, it was this woman who like that was literally like she was just like, “I’m just one of the dudes! Like I don’t know nuh nuh nuh,” and it always struck me as like deeply, profoundly sad and I feel like it—the more I sort of live like the more I’m like, “God! That’s the [yells] saddest, worst thing!” Um so, you know, like feminis—femininity and femaleness is so odious to somebody that they would just be like, “I reject that. Women are—” She was like, “Women are just drama queens. I rather like align myself with men.” And even queer women align themselves with like male power, so that women who aren’t even attracted to men necessarily being like, “Oh I need to like align myself in that way.” And so that to me is really interesting and I think that there’s something in there that we’re—we’re coming to this like… I don’t know if it’ll actually be a catharsis but I feel like [mm hmm]—we’re sort of—this is like sort of what’s in the air right now and I feel like we’re arriving in this place where we’re having to reckon with like… again, like not just like this cartoonish like male villainy that’s so—The problem is that like Trump is like… cartoonish male villainy, but what’s actually way worse is like, again, this slow, almost invisible grind, and the ways in which women then within themselves reinforce that, even when the, sort of, the power’s not directly not on them in that moment [mm hmm]. And I feel like that is something that we like need to figure out. And I don’t know if we will, I don’t know if that’s possible, but it’s something that is—is very interesting to me as a writer and so it’s like what I write about and so of course that book—that essay—you know, writing that review gave me a little space to like talk about that because it was—I was like, “Oh this is exactly what this book is about so like [mm hmm]. Here, I’m also gonna like talk about this idea that I have.” [29:20] SWB Yeah I mean I feel like this comes up in all kinds of fields. I mean I definitely know early in my career I… spent a lot of time hanging out with the dudes in my office because the dudes in my office were like in positions of more power, oftentimes. And they were fun! They were nice. I mean they were—they were in lots of ways great people but I definitely had a couple of years in there where it was almost like I set aside a lot of the more… like overt feminist work that I had done prior to that and was like, “I’m kinda—I’m here to, you know, get shit done and move up and make space for myself and, you know, I’ll do that by fitting in at—for a round of beers with these dudes.” And I couldn’t really see it that way at the time. Like I could not have explained that was what I was doing but looking back it’s like that was definitely what I was doing. And there came this moment where I was just like, “I don’t fucking want to.” And then I realized is that over the past several years, I mean definitely since the election but even before that, I was going through a process of sort of like… reevaluating the men in my life [mm hmm]. Um like I have a husband. I love him. His great [laughter]. Still in my life. He stayed. Um but like I definitely cut out a lot of people who I thought I was like “supposed to” like [mm hmm], or people who were “important” in my field, or whatever. Right? Like I was just like, “Oh. Is this actually bringing me anything in my life?” CMM And I do think that’s also—I think that’s part of getting older. I do feel like as you get older you’re like, “Well life is short, I will die one day [chuckling in background], I need—I can’t like waste time on people who are like making me miserable or like don’t—or don’t—you know they don’t, not that you like, not in like a self-serving way where you’ll like, ‘Only people who can help me,’ but like just being like, ‘No, like that person doesn’t give me any joy. That person like makes me feel bad about myself.’” You know, whoever. Like I want to—but then yeah, there’s this element also of like my tolerance for like, male masculine bullshit is like this big. People who are listening, you can’t see. I’m making a very tiny little notch [chuckling in background] with my fingers. It’s like almost nothing because I’m just like, “I can’t. I don’t have time for your weird shit.” [Laughter] Like, I don’t want to deal with that. I gotta live my life. I gotta make art. I got a life. But I—but I crave the company of other women. And I mean I’m queer but also like I just crave like… I think women are more interesting [laughs]. I think women are just more interesting and I feel like the—yeah, it’s like I don’t have to explain myself to women [yes]. I don’t have to explain… we just know. KL Yeah, you don’t have to explain about being or existing in—in [right]—in small facets of [right]—of ways that like seem like they should be obvious but [yeah]. SWB Right. Like when you’re like, “Well, you know, sometimes you just had sex with somebody because it was easier than leaving.” And everybody’s just like [crosstalk and laughter], “Oh yeah—I get it.” [32:00] CMM [Inaudible][Laughter]—no man. Almost no—well, I’m sure some men. But almost [sure]. Probably a very tiny percentage but every woman knows what that’s like, every single woman. It’s like, “Oh yeah,” where you’re like, “I’d rather—I don’t know what this—I don’t know this guy, I don’t know what he’ll do if I say no.” Or having to deal with like the whining and the inevitable like bullshit that’s gonna come with me saying no is just like easier for me to just like have sex and then like go away. So like that, right, well woman know that and—and I think it’s really nice to have that um and I think what’s really nice about what’s happening sort of in terms of art and writing right now is like you are getting a lot of these narratives are sort of being presented um like well before like “Cat Person” and like all these other stuff that’s been in the last couple of years. There was this really amazing piece I want to say in Buzzfeed maybe like two or three years ago that was also about this idea where it’s like not rape… but it’s like what about this exact phenomenon where it’s like it’s not rape, it’s not sexual assault, like you consent, technically, but you’re consenting because of this like larger power structure that like is totally out of your control and like, all things being equal, you would say no but like you just don’t want to deal with—You know so it’s like I’ve—this is like a thing that’s just in the air and I think we’re just like thinking about it a lot. SWB Well I think that there’s kind of a lot of stuff in the air right, you know, you touched on some of it and one of the things that—that seems to be like definitely in the air is just I mean women’s stories are—are selling now. Like in a way that, I don’t know, maybe they probably never had the opportunity to before, they probably [chuckles] would’ve sold if they had been out there in the world [mm hmm] but I feel like there’s—there’s suddenly a lot more space? I’m not sure if that’s the way right way to look at it though but I feel like there’s um so many more women authors from all kinds of backgrounds who are like getting a lot of attention and who are kind of becoming, well like “the new vanguard” or whatever, right? Like there’s like—there’s—there’s sort of an appetite for that and a—and a—more of a, I don’t know, there’s an appetite for it which maybe was always there but there’s maybe more of a willingness to publish it and more of a willingness to promote it? CMM Yeah I mean it—I feel like it’s sort of actually a bunch of different things, like I mean on one hand, not to be um, not to be cynical, but like feminism is a brand that sells. Like there is a sort of level of like… it is accept—it is a thing that is acceptable… for like companies to make money on, you know? And like so the reason, for example, that we’re seeing like so many like gay st—we’re seeing more like gay stories and more feminist stories is because right now, we’re in a place where that sort of thing is permissible and is even, like, profitable. But I don’t think that necessarily means that like, it—I don’t know if that’s as much as changing, it’s just like technology’s permitting this, certain sort of independent groups but there’s like just sort of weird little pockets that like are permitting it, and so it is like happening, but I don’t necessarily know if that means that like it’s different now, “everything’s better,” like I don’t—I don’t actually know if that’s the case. I’m also very cynical about all this. [35:03] SWB And I wonder, right, like I wonder if there’s a moment where people are like, “Oooh! We can—if we buy this book, right, like if we buy this author’s work, we think that’s gonna sell because it’s going to fit into this like group of like [totally] women of color writers who’ve sold well in previous years.” That’s a moment. That may not be a change that lasts. CMM Right. The problem is that we think, and by we I just mean like culture. We think of like, minority—the art of non-dominant groups can be trendy, but we think of men and whiteness and straightness as, like, eternal and not trendy, and just like that is—that is the natural baseline, and anything else is like a trend. So like publishing—and publishing and other sorts of art forms—might follow those trends, but ultimately we will always return to this baseline. And of course that’s fake, right? Like, that’s not real: men, and white, and straight, and cis, and all those things are not like—are not neutral, but we think of them as neutral. So I feel like, yeah, I feel like we’re in this place where like, you know, there are these like spikes, but it’s because of this trendiness that—but it doesn’t mean that’s gonna be that way forever, right? So until we re-conceive of what is neutral, like, what is the center? And if we keep thinking of maleness and whiteness, et cetera, et cetera as the center, then we’re gonna keep like cycling back to that, you know? And so I think there’s like a different way to conceive of it that is like—but again, that’s about divesting. That’s about, like, rejecting the structure altogether, of everything, which is like really different than just being like, “Rah rah!” Like, “yay!” Like it’s actually more about like pulling everything out from the roots and like starting again, and how do we that? And I don’t know. Look, I don’t know how we do that. I think that’s like a big question and I think um… you know, we’ll see. SWB Yeah. If—if the question is basically like, ok, well if we redefine what neutral is or like sort of what—what normal is and we cannot do that unless we can deal with our internalized misogyny. [Right] Right? And so it’s like, ok, well then how do we deal with that? And that’s such a huge question. Then—then, you know, it’s like—it’s a long haul to get back around to like, ok then what—what—what does the world look like after that [right] and like who the hell knows. But I’m—I’m curious: what has that meant in your personal work in your life? So, like, how did you get to a place where you felt like you had the confidence to show up with, you know, your, I’ll use your quote from earlier, with your “fat mind,” [chuckling in background and chuckles] and like and to say like, “I’m here and I’m going to take up space and I’m going to tell the stories that I want to tell, and I’m going to do them in these genres that don’t—that haven’t really been recognized, or I’m going to take genre and I’m gonna do whatever the fuck I want with it.” Like how did you get to a place where you felt like that was something that you could do? [37:51] CMM I wish I could say that it was all internal because certainly part of the process is like, being like, “I am going to do this thing.” Part of it was actually—but part—a lot of it was other people, you know? I was lucky in that like I had like my girlfriend slash wife who’s like brilliant and I trust and love, like being like, “This is really awesome. This is really different.” There were other people in my life like really encouraging me and like, you know, readers who read my work and wrote to me and, you know, so there were like these other sort of forces working. And then at some point I—I feel like I was looking at what I was doing and I was like, “I have something to say.” And, you know, the interesting thing about being like a writer or being any kind of artist is like you have to have an ego. Because, you know, you have to say like, “What I’m creating is important enough that I think other people should pay for it, should read it. It should be published, or it should be presented,” or whatever, and like that requires an amount of ego where you’re like, “I think that what I have to say is that important.” Um and I think sometimes people forget that element of it or they—or they—they’re like, “Oh like this person is so arrogant,” or whatever but it’s like no, no, you have to believe that, or else why the fuck are you writing? What’s the point? Or why are you making whatever art? So at some point I had to be like, “Yes, like I’m really good at this. I’m gonna—I’m gonna do it and I’m just gonna make this happen.” And that felt really amazing, and it felt really—and it felt right. And now—so it’s like I had to get over this hump, and then at some point, like obviously like the books are doing really well and I was like, “Ok so I wasn’t—” But even the book hadn’t done well I think I still would’ve felt that way like, “I’m good at what I do.” Like I know that I’m good at—I’m not good at a lot of things. Like, you know, I can’t draw to save my life. Like, you know, I’m really bad at dancing, like I’m not a fast runner, when I paint walls it’s always really crooked, like there I do not have a lot of skills but I know that I’m a good writer. And that—I can say that and like I know that’s true. And I would never—you know, I don’t ever say things like I, yeah, I would never claim to be anything that I’m not and like—but I know I’m a good writer. And I have that. I have that. And so… I can sort of move forward that and that’s like in my arsenal of like getting through my life and like getting through everything um and knowing that and believing that. So… yeah. I don’t know. So I think it is like—it’s, yeah, it’s partially like sort of taking from other people what they are handing to you because I think oftentimes people will say to you like, “You’re really good at this thing.” And you want to be like—especially women want to be like, [uptalking:] “No, no, no. Like I’m not—I’m not—oh, oh, you know, like I—thank you. I’m just doing what I do.” You know? And it’s like you want to—because you’re trained to like minimize yourself in that way and it’s like—it’s like saying, “Oh thank you, I worked really hard on that. So thanks so much. I really appreciate it.” And it can be scary and also for me like I get really scared when I have to admit like—Like, for example, like right now I’m working on this new book and I’m really scared that I’m not smart enough to write it and that’s really hard to admit. Because it’s like, oh my god, like, what if I’ve bitten off more than I can chew? Like what if, you know? And so now I’ve gotta like rapidly make myself the kind of writer who can get through this project, and that’s like a very terrifying challenge. But also, that’s how I know I’m getting better, because I’m like pushing myself through like these new stages of—of art and of—you know, and I read my book—my book came out in October. When I read it I’m like, “I’m already a better writer than I was when I wrote this book.” And that’s really exciting too, being like, “Oh no, like I, you know, I’m already better.” … Like I’m already sick of reading from it because I’m like, “Oh I can do better than this,” you know? [Laughs] So yeah so I feel like it’s like taking what people give you… sort of, you know, challenging yourself and pushing yourself and, you know, knowing what you’re good at, and I think also like a lot of that in—involves like being bad at things. Like, I don’t know, my dad is a chemical engineer and the poor man was trying to get me to be a scientist for like my entire life and of course I like at every turn just resisted him in [chuckles] in every way [chuckling in background]. [41:29] CMM [Continued] And I’m ba—I’m not good at math, I’m not good at, you know? [Laughs] You know like I’m not good at any of that stuff. Um but I do remember like getting I think a C in chemistry in high school and I had like a—I had like a conniption, like I was having like a nervous breakdown, and my dad was like, “Look,” he said, “Ye—did you do your best?” And I said, “I did!” Like I was going to school, I was like. He’s like, “That’s all you can do. It’s ok. You don’t—you’re not good—no one’s—no one’s good at everything.” He’s like, “I never trust people who have like straight As in absolutely everything because it’s like… it’s like you’ve gotta fail, you’ve gotta,” well he didn’t say—he didn’t say “fuck up” but I would say you gotta fuck up sometimes. You gotta be like, “I’m gonna try this thing, maybe I’ll get a little better, maybe not. Like, I’m—but also I can do this.” Or, “This thing gives me pleasure, I’m gonna do it anyway.” And I feel like there’s this way of just like figuring out like, yeah, like how you occupy your space and like being ok with bad at things and also being comfortable with being good at something and men are good at both those things. Men are really good at being like super confident in everything that they’re doing and also like fucking up royally at the same time. SWB And they just move on! CMM They’re just going on! Right! And like women are just like, “Aaaaaah!” [Laughter in background] And I feel like it’s like because we’re just taught to do that, we’re taught to like [inaudible crosstalk] freak out and agonize at every turn. And it’s like you don’t have to live your life that way. That’s like a prison. That’s fake. So, yeah, so I don’t know, and this is all stuff that I’ve only realized in the last like few years of my life, you know? And so there’s something really freeing about that. SWB I love it so much. CMM I’m so glad [laughs]. SWB I love it so much because, you know, we talk about this a lot on the show. This sort of like… having other—like when other people come to you and tell you you’re doing great, and like how important it is to actually listen to them and take that seriously because it’s so easy to brush it off and, again, like to come back to what—what I mentioned at the beginning, like, to reduce your own successes to luck, right? [Yeah] And to like, “Oh yeah I wasn’t—” No, like, sure, I mean, it’s not to say like there are some ways in which we all get lucky, there are ways in which we happen to have this moment, and the right thing at the right time but like, things have happened for me in ways that were good because I worked my ass off, right? [Right, yes] Like I’m good at things and that is why I’ve gotten a lot of it. [43:28] CMM And I think also recognizing because for me like people will ask me like, “What is—you’re having this moment, what does that mean?” And I’m like, “Well, like it’s a lot of things.” Like it is some amount of luck. Like there’s timing. Timing is a thing you often can’t but like good timing. Yes, I’ve worked my ass off. I’m also really privileged in a lot of ways. Like I grew up, you know, I was educated, like I grew up in a certain kind of household. Like I’ve never like been hungry, I’ve never like been homeless. Like there’s like all these things sort of working for me um so it’s like, you know, and also, yeah, I’m working really hard, and also I have some talent. And I think there’s like, like saying like, “I have a talent,” which is a thing that like is sort of nebulous and is hard to pin down and like where does it come from? And can you teach it and like I mean that’s kind of beyond purview and I could talk about that for like ten hours but there’s like that element, there’s privilege which you can’t control, there’s luck which you also can’t control, all you can control is like the hard work element. SWB Yeah, I mean I don’t know if you can teach this necessarily but it seems like something you can give to someone. CMM Or like—yeah or like let someone know about it. Yeah, no, for sure. KL Talk about it more like you’re saying, I mean I think talking to each other and talking to other women who may not just may not ha—have experience talking about this stuff or listening to people who have experienced it [yeah]. It’s, you know. SWB Or also it’s like we’ve sort of been taught to be ashamed of it. Like something [exactly] we talk about a lot is how common it is for women to feel like they shouldn’t talk about their ambitions, or talk [yes] about things they want, or like to like—yeah, like to—to—to be able to say out loud like the intentionality that they have [yeah] and put into things [yeah]. CMM Right it’s—it’s very gauche to be like, “This is what I want.” Or, “This is my goal.” SWB And I’m kind of fucking tired of that [yeah] like I don’t—I’m not interested in that. I want to hear what—what women want and [yeah] like what they’re—what they’re doing— CMM But not like in a Mel Gibson kind of way [boisterous laughter]. KL No. Never. [45:00] SWB Never. Literally never in a Mel Gibson kind of way. Carmen, thank you so much for being on the show today. CMM Oh of course! No problem, thank you [music fades in, ramps up, plays for five seconds alone, fades out]. SWB Is everybody ready for the Fuck Yeah of the Week? JL I’m so ready. SWB I’m always ready for the Fuck Yeah this week, because the Fuck Yeah this week is: naps. KL Aaaah! SWB Ugh uh do you—ok… JL How do you feel right now just saying the word “naps”? SWB I feel like I want a nap. JL You know what thinking about napping does? It can reduce your blood pressure. KL Just thinking about it? JL Just thinking about a nap! KL Oh my god. JL There was a recent study that found that just people anticipating naps was enough to lower your blood pressure. KL So we should be thinking more about snoozing. SWB Maybe this is why my blood pressure is so great because I think about naps a lot [KL laughs]. JL Everyone just stop for a second… think about a nap [sigh of relief from KL]… SWB So I don’t nap like all people nap. Like some people are like, “Oh my gosh, if I sit down for a nap it’s like two hours.” And I’m like I don’t have that kinda time. But when I take a nap, I—I take a micro nap. And— [46:13] JL What is a micro nap? And tell me more! SWB Ok. So, you know, I work at home, and, you know, sometimes you get like that afternoon lull where your brain doesn’t work that well, it’s like after lunch and you just need a minute. If I have a little bit of time something that I’ll often do is I will set my alarm for 12 or 15 minutes, and… I’ll just kind of doze off. And when I wake back up 12 to 15 minutes later, I feel so much better. And I know it sounds wild. Right? Like I know it sounds wild to be like, “Wait, you nap for 12 minutes?” JL Stop. Does this work? Is this real? SWB So it works for me and—and I’ll tell you when it works: it works when I’m having an afternoon where I’m just—I get that sluggish, tired feeling and where I’m feeling so sleepy already that I’m like, “I just can’t.” So I’m already like already pretty sleepy feeling and I figure like, instead of trying to fight it, I just lean into it, and then come back bounced back. And so for me, when I’m in that zone, I found that that kind of little break is much more productive than like trying to fight through it. So—so here’s my 12-minute story, ok: two minutes to fall asleep. Ten minutes of napping. JL And it wor—and you fall asleep within those two minutes? SWB Oftentimes I can fall into like a light sleep. JL Mmm… I’m—I feel like my blood pressure’s dropped just listening to you tell that story. KL I know! I—yeah, I have not usually been able to do that and I think now I’m listening to you say this and I’m wondering if it’s something that I could maybe just like try to practice a little bit more because when I have napped and just like been able to do it for like half an hour or something, even that is, you know, really nice and—and I feel refreshed. But I feel like I was always one of those people who I would go to sl—like go to sleep to nap and I would two hours later I would [chuckles] wake up and I’d be like, “Ah! Everything’s shot!” And then you feel terrible. SWB Yeah, I mean I can do that if I lie down for that long it’s like you’re just you’re brain foggy because you go into those deep sleep cycles. I don’t do that—it’s just like a real quick thing. Here’s the thing: you know my number one tip for getting good at the micro nap? I mean I don’t know if micro naps are gonna work for you or not, maybe they will, maybe they won’t. But my tip is like, first up… learn to feel really good about the idea. Like don’t feel bad or guilty about taking a little nap [KL absolutely].  Don’t feel like you should be doing something else, don’t feel like it’s sort of like indulgent. Feel like sometimes that is the most productive way that you could spending your time. [48:49] JL There’s so many studies about how good naps are for you. I mean like things like just being more alert, increasing your patience, reducing heart disease. SWB Oh my god, I need way more patience. So should I take a lot more naps [laughs]? JL Maybe you need to up it to [inaudible over crosstalk]— KL Yeah, definitely. SWB You know the other thing I think, though, like you were saying, Katel, like you need to practice a little bit. I do think it’s the kind of thing, like, even if you’ve mentally given yourself permission, you may not have kind of physically let go of this idea that—that taking nap is a—is, like, a weird thing to be doing. So like normalize it, and then it might get easier to fall asleep. KL Completely. I think that is absolutely true. And I think also just doing some sort of physical hygiene around that, where, you know, I’m putting myself in like a very comfortable place, and making it conducive to doing that instead of being like, “I’m gonna—I’m sitting on couch already, I’m just gonna like lay my head down,” that doesn’t always work. JL One of the things that always frustrated me as a new mom is everyone was like, “Sleep when baby sleeps.” And I’m like, “Buuut I can’t just sleep on demand,” and that would be so annoying because you can’t predict the sleep schedule of your newborn or toddler, it turns out um [laughs] and so he would go to sleep and I’d be like, “Well, I want to sleep,” but I wouldn’t be able to fall asleep and so like and I would give myself two minutes, ten minutes, 15 and I wouldn’t fall asleep and then I would just get frustrated and think about that and then I would just give up and—and do something else like eat or shower which was fine. Other necessities. But I—then I eventually realized that for me it wasn’t just about falling asleep, the idea of just lying down and giving my body and sometimes my mind a chance to just relax also was really refreshing. So I’ve gotten way better at that. So maybe not falling asleep but this idea of just breaks and resting and giving myself a chance to do that. And like you were saying, Sara, being ok with that. And also being ok if I don’t fall asleep. And I think that was one of the thing that was one of my biggest battles is I’d be like, “Napping’s not working. I’m not falling asleep.” But being like, “You know what? I’m just gonna lie here for ten minutes, 30 minutes, an hour, whenever he decided to wake back up and I’m just gonna—I’m just gonna be.” [51:04] SWB Did you ever think that you would be just like looking forward to when he’s like a surly tween or teen [laughter] and like won’t get up until 11:30 or [laughs]? So yeah, naps. I recommend it. They are Sara approved. I think you should take ‘em. I think you should feel good about them. I recognize if you work l

In Episode 9, we talk inclusion riders, the importance of pronouns, and how all of us can better support folks from marginalized communities. If there’s one thing we’re sure of, it’s that we’ve got to stick together—and that means supporting and centering the voices of folks with less opportunity and privilege than us. In this episode, we talk with designer and educator Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen about how listening, and finding community, can help us do just that. They also share how parenting shaped their career path, what it was like to come out at work, and why they see allyship as something we practice, not something we have. Listen up. > If I show up at work as myself, then I’m in a state of being in my greatest power. And I think if you can find a workplace where they want you to be there in your greatest power, then like, yeah, show up. This is how you do it. > > —Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen, designer and educator Here’s what we get into—and of course, there’s a full transcript, too. Show notes If you didn’t catch the Oscars, don’t worry—we start the show by filling you in on our favorite parts. Of note: (Ahem) Janelle Monáe’s pantsuit (photo) Jordan Peele’s win for Get Out and the amazing fan art he posts on Instagram Frances McDormand’s acceptance speech mentioning inclusion riders (hell yeah)… …which we go on to explore: Did you know Justin Bieber requires that his dressing room be filled with carnations? Riders can be wild. More important: Nicole Sanchez writes about taking inclusion riders beyond Hollywood and into fields like tech—and apply them to everything from speaking gigs to job offers. Yep. We also touch on Lara Hogan’s wonderful piece about applying inclusiveness to your hiring process, the Enterprise UX Conference’s journey through inclusive programming, how the Design & Content Conference put together a diverse conference production team, and Women Talk Design’s mission to empower organizers to create more diverse events. Interview: Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen It’s not hyperbole to say it was an honor and a pleasure to talk with UX designer and educator Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen. Stevie tells us about the causes that drive them, establishing a career in design, navigating coming out as queer, and what it really means to practice allyship. We talk about: Where Stevie lives in Vancouver, which is the unceded land of the Coast Salish people, particularly the Squamish, the Musqueam, and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations. Stevie’s work with Out in Schools, a program that engages students on issues of homophobia, transphobia, and bullying. How having a child while establishing a career—and then making choices about your career and your future—become intertwined in a way you never expected. What it means to realize you’re queer at 27—and what happens next. How we can better support marginalized people by practicing ongoing allyship, and provide safer spaces for those communities. (More on the idea of practicing allyship from Mariame Kaba.) Demystifying and sharing pronouns—and deconstructing the hard-coded way we think about each other. FYOTW We end the show with a little self-love and high-five because, fuck yeah!—we made the New & Noteworthy list on Apple Podcasts! AND it reminds us of all the amazing women-hosted podcasts we listen to and love—including a show you should definitely check out, called Good As Hell hosted by Lizzo. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a diverse, intelligent, and motivated team—and they  want to apply to you. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re talking about. _WordPress—the place to build your personal blog, business site, or anything else you want on the web. WordPress helps others find you, remember you, and connect with you. _   Transcript Katel LeDû This episode of No, You Go is brought to you by Shopify, the leading global commerce platform for entrepreneurs. And did you know they’re growing? If you want to work with a diverse, passionate team that likes to get shit done, then you should talk to Shopify. The best part: they don’t just want you to apply to them, they want to apply to you. So visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re all about. Jenn Lukas Hey! And welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KL I’m Katel LeDû. Sara Wachter-Boettcher And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. SWB I’m so excited today to talk about one of my favorite topics: inclusion. And, more specifically, we’re going to talk about how people like me, like all of us, can step up and make an impact for underrepresented groups in any field. To help us out, we sat down with a friend of mine, Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen, to learn more about what real inclusion can look like. But, first up, did you all watch the Oscars last week? JL Nope! KL Uh, I did, and I have a few favorite things I kind of want to share because, first of all — you didn’t have to watch it just to see all the pictures that come out of it but Janelle Monáe’s fire red, like military-inspired pant suit was phenomenal. SWB She looked amazing. KL She looked amazing. I also would really like to make a very genuine request to Tiffany Haddish and Maya Rudolph to run for presidents ASAP. SWB Like, co-presidents? KL Like, yeah, absolutely and then, I mean, to top it all off: Jordan Peele won for best screenplay for Get Out, which is just fucking so awesome. I saw that movie and I was so obsessed, I loved it so much that I started following Jordan Peele on Instagram, and he posts a lot of Get Out fan art, it is absolutely worth following. It’s magical. JL I loved that movie. KL It was so good. [2:02] JL Yeah. Um, also, I love this pantsuit. I just Googled it. SWB Get on the internet right now! “Janelle Monáe Oscars pantsuit.” The cape portion of it or whatever that kind of swoopy back is is amazing! So I loved that she really made it her own. Like it was not the kind of look that not just other women were wearing but that, like, anybody was wearing. But it also felt so completely Oscars. Right? Like it felt like she had the whole vibe — fantastic. Ok. So we can keep talking about the Oscars which I also did not actually watch. Uh I like to look at outfit photos later. But, instead, what I was hoping we could talk a little bit about was the story that came out about Frances McDormand and what she said at the end of her speech. She said something about how she wanted to leave the audience with two words and those words were “inclusion rider” So Nicole Sanchez wrote this piece that Jenn actually sent around to all of us, that was about what inclusion rider means in tech or what they could mean in tech. So Nicole is awesome. She is a diversity consultant who runs a company called Vaya Consulting. So she spent a long time looking at diversity and inclusion in the tech industry. And she wrote this piece where she talked about where inclusion riders come from and what they mean. So she credits Dr. Stacy Smith at USC for originally coming up with this concept, and says that it comes from diversifying talent in the media. And the concept is kind of pretty simple, right? It’s like: if you take a rider, which you may have heard about from the music industry— JL So a rider is like what you request if you are going to be performing somewhere. And it could be something like, “I need to have sparkling water, or I need to have a soundcheck of two hours before I’m going to go on.” It could be— KL A fancy rug. JL Or a fancy rug. It could be all these things, you know, maybe you want to make sure that you’re going to have some sort of food. Or in the famous case of Van Halen, you might say, “I demand there be no brown M&Ms.” Which really wasn’t a demand that they needed, they stuck that in their rider to make sure that it was actually being read. So it was one of those things where if they got to a venue and they saw that there was no brown M&Ms, then that means that someone actually read the rider, and the requests that they were going to do, and that they were going to have a good show. KL Paying attention. I mean it matters. JL That’s why Justin Bieber requests that his hotel room is decked out in carnations of a specific color pattern — I’m not making this up! KL I told you! It’s— [4:30] SWB Ok so, so the Bieber rider is not also what we want to talk about tonight. Although we could. Um instead I mean I really like the way that this concept applies to other facets of life. So what Frances was talking about at the Oscars was like, “Ok. If you are an in-demand name in Hollywood, you have an opportunity, in your contracts, to stipulate that the people who are working on the set, and the people who are working with you, um are coming from diverse backgrounds. You have this, you know, you have the opportunity to say that you want to make sure that they’re being paid fairly. You have an opportunity to make some demands that might actually be relatively small in comparison to what you could be getting paid if you’re a big star, but are really, really huge for people who aren’t you.” And so, what Nicole talks about in her article is really applying that other places like, let’s say, a tech conference. Like, if you’re an in-demand speaker, you also have a lot of power. And you can say, “I would love to speak at your event, but I’m going to need you to do some shit for me first.” And getting really specific about what you expect to make sure that that event is inclusive and welcoming to people who are not in demand like you are. KL Yeah, I really like what Nicole wrote because it made it really obvious and seemed really reasonable to have this filter out into a lot of different areas, right? And, like you were saying, you might not be a speaker who’s super in-demand, you might just be starting out. But I think a lot of it is just knowing that it’s very fair and totally appropriate to ask questions about the thing that you’re about to sign up to do. SWB Totally! That reminds me of what Erika Hall talked about when we interviewed her which is like the importance of asking questions and the power of asking questions. I have been thinking about this a lot and I talked about this a little bit actually on Twitter today. Like, one of the things that I’ve started doing is when I’m asked to speak at conferences which, you know, I’ve written some books, and I’ve done a lot of speaking. So I do get asked which is great but I’ve started asking some questions back and I try to make them pretty consistent, across the board, because I find if I ask the same stuff over and over, I’m more comfortable asking and it also feels a little less weird, like it’s not a special standard, it’s just my standard. And so I have a few things that I would say are kind of in my rider, or at least like, they’re in my Go/No Go [chuckling] kind of file, right? Like I won’t go to your event if you don’t answer these questions in a way that I can live with. So it’s things like, you know, for me I always ask like, “Does your event have a code of conduct?” That’s something that’s on Nicole’s list too. But I also ask things like, “What are you doing to ensure that your event has a diverse lineup?” And I ask it that way specifically because I want to hear how people think about it. And if they tell me things like, “Well, we just want to have the best speakers.” Then that’s a big red flag for me because I question, “Well, how do you know you have the best speakers? ‘Best’ according to whom? According to like people you already knew? People your Twitter connections already knew?” You know it’s like it brings up a lot for me. Or at least it’s an opportunity to have a conversation with them. And depending on how that conversation goes, that can tell me a lot about whether I’m interested in coming there, and also it’ll tell me whether I’m interested in investing time and helping them identify speakers they hadn’t heard about, which I’m super happy to do if I feel confident that, you know, if I recommend a speaker who is from a more marginalized group, who’s maybe less experienced than I am, to go to an event, I don’t want that person to be treated poorly. I want to make sure that I’m sending them to an event where somebody’s going to take them seriously. So I feel like by having those conversations, it gives me a chance to feel out how much somebody’s thought about this, how open they are to change, and how willing they are to kind of put in work. Because it is. It takes work, right? Just like we talked about on an earlier episode: it takes work to think about, you know, not centering all your events on drinking, which is a really answer. It takes worth to think about something like onsite childcare but like every single detail you do as an event planner is work and I want them to think about this as an important piece of their job. [8:33] KL Yeah, I mean, you just said that you have an opportunity to do this and I would almost say that established folks, like yourself, I imagine feel like they have a — an obligation to. SWB Absolutely. I don’t know that everybody does. I wish more people who felt like they had some sway — and I, you know, I have like some level of sway. There’s people who — who are like much more in demand and who make a lot of money speaking in our field. And I think that they have a huge responsibility. But I definitely, 100 percent like I — yes, I think of that as an opportunity in the sense of like, I’m glad to have the opportunity. But 100 percent it is an obligation and it is a responsibility. JL Yeah, um I’ve always did a similar thing to you, Sara, where I had a list of a set of questions that I asked every conference opportunity that came up and, you know, like you’re saying, it helps when you have the standard because then you can send an email back that’s like, “This is what I ask all my conferences. No matter what.” And I wrote a post about this awhile back, mine were focused a little bit more about seeing if they — if speakers were paid, and one of the things that I really like to ask is, “What is the cost of the conference? And how many attendees do you expect?” And then afterwards I would say, “What is your speaker fee?” To make sure that then, you know, if a conference will write back, “Oh our conference cost 12 hundred dollars, we’re expecting, you know, a thousand, 2,000, 5,000 people and then the speaker fee is zero, right? KL Then that math is wrong! SWB That math speaks for itself, right? Like it’s like, “Mmm, hmm, how do you like the way those numbers look on the page?” Right. [10:00] JL Not — not too great um so I think it’s really important, you know, for — to realize too and like it’s a mix of educating also, where I think some people never— never thought about that. And I’m not saying that that’s ok. But like it is — then I become, “Well, here are these questions and why I’m asking them because it’s not ok.” SWB Yeah, I mean I wish that everybody would have thought about this by now. I kind of feel like, “C’mon, like you sh— c’mon, you should be thinking about this already.” However, I also accept that that’s not the case and if my goal is to make more people aware, and hope that more people come along with me on this particular journey, then I do feel like part part of it — being able to do something than education is ok and important. I don’t expect everybody to do that, in all circumstances, but I feel like I have enough like sort of comfort and confidence of where I am that I— I can do that. And I think that’s a service to — I’m not so much worried about doing it as a service to the conference organizer, I think that’s like a side benefit. I think about that as a service to the industry, at large, and to the people who need that information to be more widespread. JL Completely. And, you know, I would say that, as a speaker, I did this but as an attendee I’ve asked for things too. And so I feel like people should feel empowered to ask questions as an attendee also, you know, “Will you have a vegan meal?” “Will you have a vegetarian meal?” And that’s something that I used to ask a lot um you know, “Is there a place to nurse?” Or “Is there a place to pump?” And like, “What sort of facilities will be available?” And, as an attendee, someone who’s paying for a conference, you should definitely feel empowered. I mean as a speaker, you should too, that wasn’t taking away from that. But you should definitely feel empowered to write the organizers and make sure that they will have these things available to you also. SWB And I’m also deeply suspect of any event that makes you feel bad for having— like if some event makes you feel bad because you ask for a vegan meal or you ask for a nursing room, like, “I’m sorry. What the actual fuck?” It’s one thing for them not to necessarily be able to meet every need, that’s like a different conversation. But I think if somebody comes to you with a need, and you write them off, or you minimize it, or you pretend like it doesn’t matter. Like, I don’t want to go that event. And I don’t want — I don’t want those people to have my money, or for them to use like my face and my talk to promote their event. KL Right. SWB Um so there were some things though on Nicole’s list that I’d never thought about before that I’m super glad to have heard about now. So for example, I had not thought about — and I feel silly not having thought about it but I never thought about asking about the people who are working the event. So like the laborers, the people who are doing setup and takedown, the people who are doing food, like how are they being paid? She specifically mentioned, you know, what are the labor conditions, are they part of a union? I think there’s probably a whole lot of different questions you might ask depending on your particular interests or your particular kind of like stance but I think asking about the welfare and the support of the people who are not kind of seen as like part of the conference, but are, in fact, like what makes the conference run. Like that’s a huge area that I’m going to be thinking more about. KL And the fact that, you know, she points out, is there — is there a process for intake of these kinds of requests, or like these kinds of questions, right? For like just handling that and — and talking about them. JL So I think the conversation that keeps coming up again and again, from conference organizers saying, “How do I make this happen? How do I diversify my lineups? How do I diversify my speakers?” And I think some people have provided solutions and ideas for this. An article I read recently on Medium was about the Enterprise UX Conference which um they’ve been working on this for four years and every year have slowly iterated on how they’ve been handling things. And I think one of the things that is really great about that is they didn’t just give up after year one. They’re like, “Well, I don’t know how to do it.” Is that they’ve been slowly trying to improve their process and they wrote about this and they were saying that one of the things they did was make sure to have different people, besides three white men, choosing the lineup and being in charge of the themes. And as soon as they started expanding from that, then so did their speaker lineup. SWB You know one of my favorite conferences, Design and Content, actually a conference that Stevie, our guest today, is going to MC this year, they’ve done a really similar thing where they have a selection committee and what they specifically did is they intentionally went out and identified people from a bunch of different backgrounds and then they paid them for their time to be on that committee. And it dramatically changed how they come up with who’s going to be on the roster for the year. And they’ve written about it publically, we’ll put that in the show notes, because I think that they have a process that is — is something that other people can follow. And, you know, part of it came out of their first year. They had really good intentions. They went out and thought about, you know, “You know let’s make sure we have a good, diverse lineup. Let’s ask some people who we’ve never seen before, and some new faces, et cetera.” And an attendee called them out for it at the event and said you know, “This lineup is really white.” And they had to take a step back and be like, “Yeah, it is.” And sit with that. Right? And figure out what to do about that. And I think that that’s hard but I think that’s one of the responsibilities that we have is to be able to hear those kinds of feedback and say, “Ok I’m going to listen to that and then I’m going to figure out how do I change?” And, you know, and that’s one of the reasons I like to ask these questions I ask, right? Is it’s like, do I get defensiveness? Or do I get somebody who can say, “Yeah, you know, we haven’t that diverse of a lineup in past years. You’re right that’s something we should change. I have some ideas but I would love to hear more,” or whatever it is. But that — that openness is really, really important. So, um, that’s one of the things about Enterprise UX that I think has been great as well is that they’re willing to write about it. Like they’re willing to admit it that it wasn’t great year one! Which is sometimes hard to do, right? You have to be able to look at your work and say like, “Here are the ways that this wasn’t where we wanted to be. And then here’s what we did differently.” [16:11] JL Another site that I found interesting was womentalkdesign.com. Their tagline is that they “elevate the best talks about design from women and empowers event organizers with tools, approaches, and information to engage more women speakers.” So this is a neat project because it’s an answer to that question of, “Well, I don’t know where to find these speakers!” And so I really like it because they went out and tackled this specific question that people kept asking. SWB Yeah, I mean Christina Wodtke who is one of the people who created that site, I know that part of this was born of her frustration. Like, she’s been in the industry a long time, working in tech and in UX. And people would frequently ask her, “Well, where do I find all these diverse speakers?” And now she’s like, “I don’t have to answer that question anymore!” Right? Like she’s like, “They’re out there. You just have to do a little bit of work, to get outside of the bubble that you have,” and then she was like, “Ok, let me go and do some of that work.” And um — and so the result is that it’s like, “Oh! You’re looking for more diverse lineups for your event?” That’s certainly not everybody, by any means, but like if you haven’t at least gone through that, like you’ve done not even the bare minimum. JL And I— I don’t think inclusiveness just stops at these conferences, right? I mean one of the things that came out recently was Lara Hogan wrote a great article about how to apply inclusiveness to your hiring process, and how to like tackle that, and one of the things that she had was to make sure that you have a diverse group of the team interviewing these candidates, and I think that’s great thing: making sure that it’s not just one group of people that are interviewing all of your candidates as they come in. SWB And I think it also goes back to some of the same stuff that we talked for like an inclusion rider is that if you are in a position where you feel like you have some choice about the job that you’re taking, which I recognize not everybody is in, but if you’re in that position and you’re thinking about, “I want a place that’s going to give me the most growth opportunity, I want the place that’s going to offer a really good salary package, et cetera, et cetera,” you know, I think that it’s another responsibility to be able to say, “I want to place that is willing to kind of put its money where its mouth is when it comes to being an inclusive environment,” and to ask those same kinds of questions, right? “So what are you doing to increase diversity in your team?” And “What are you doing to support people who come from different backgrounds? And like — what does that look like?” JL I love this question. I love this so much. Um I think it’s like— as a candidate, as an interviewee, you might be like, “Well, how do I phrase this? How do I make sure that this job is going to be a good job with me?” And I think that’s a great way to phrase it. Um when we interview people, one of the questions I always ask is, um I phrase it as: “Diversity and inclusiveness are really important values to us. What are some important values to you?” And, you know, it’s a very leading question but you’d be surprised at how many people go on some sort of tangent that is, like, “Ah. You know? I want to make sure that I have like — snacks.” No one’s ever said snacks! That’s an exaggeration [sure] but it’s certainly something that’s like, you know, not appropriate for the answer or where I was hoping that they would go. SWB We talk a lot about sort of how this relates to people who are working in like tech and design fields, but this is the kind of thing that I think is really transferrable to almost any field, right? Like that it’s not really about the industry that you’re in, it’s like if you were working in an industry that is not necessarily perfectly inclusive, which is like, newsflash: probably all of them. Then you know I think that the— the same kind of stuff applies and you can kind of bring some of these same principles and ideas along. So I’m really stoked that we’re talking about inclusion riders, I don’t think it necessarily has to be like a contract in every circumstance, I think it’s much more about how can you apply that concept to whatever it is that you’re doing in your professional and however you’re interacting with people who hold power in your industry. [19:55] ** **** JL** [Sponsor] No, You Go is proud to be supported by wordpress.com. Whether you’d like to build a personal blog, a business site, or both, creating your website on wordpress.com can help others find you, remember you, and connect with you. That’s why nearly 30 percent of all websites run on WordPress. You don’t need experience setting up a website, WordPress guides you through the process from start to finish. And takes care of the technical side. In fact, we use WordPress at No, You Go. WordPress also has 24 hour customer support, which is great because we all have different schedules. Plans start at just four dollars a month. Start building your website today! Go to wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off any new purchase. That’s wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off your brand new website. Interview: Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen SWB Our guest today is Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen. I first met Stevie back in the summer of 2015, after I gave a talk at a conference up in Vancouver, and they approached me afterward wanting to chat about my talk, which was very flattering. But more than anything, what I really remember about that conversation was that this person I just met had come to me with so much kind of kindness and generosity, and our conversation felt so uplifting. And over the next few years, I have paid a lot of attention to what Stevie’s been up to and the things that they’re talking about and interested in. And this year, fast forward, Stevie is now going to be the MC of that very event where I met them: the Design & Content Conference. They’re also a UX designer, a design educator who works with youth and teaches in two different university programs, and somebody who’s just really active in their community in Vancouver, and in design in general. I am so excited to welcome Stevie to the show today. Thank you so much for being here. Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen Thank you for having me. Can I add a moment and just also acknowledge that I am also on unceded Coast Salish territories, and while we may call it Vancouver, it is the unceded land of the Coast Salish people, particularly the Squamish, the Musqueam, and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations. SWB Thank you for doing that. I think that actually sets the tone for this conversation really well because I think one of the things I would love to talk with you more about is sort of the way that you look at your role as a designer in your community and sort of the impact that you have on community and on the way that people from different backgrounds within your community are represented. So can you tell us a little more— how did you get to this place where you start a conversation and you say, “Actually, can we remind ourselves of the indigenous people whose land this is and this land has always been?” Like, what was your process of getting to a place that you were comfortable doing things like that? STAN Honestly, every time I have these moments where I’m like, “Oh! I need to say something, I should say something, this is the right thing to say,” and it is still really, really hard because I think always makes me uncomfortable not knowing how the other person may respond on the other end. Yeah, these issues are political and they are uncomfortable for people to talk about, hear, or acknowledge. I don’t know if you know what’s happening right now in Canada, but Tina and Coulton were murdered and people don’t talk about it because people don’t care. And so we need to bring these things up even though it’s really hard because people are dying. So that’s my response I guess. When I began to recognize that when we don’t talk about things, people die. And the more personal we make it, the more people who we spend time with who are directly affected by these things, by systemic oppression, the more we recognize the power that we have as individuals when we are in a place where we have to acknowledge these things. SWB That’s a pretty difficult topic and I think that that’s something pretty challenging to our audience — I mean, you mentioned that it’s hard for people to talk about, I think it’s hard to talk about on a podcast like this where we — where we really do want to talk about, you know, finding some joy even when things are difficult. And I don’t that that means erasing talking about the things that are difficult, by any means, and so, with that in mind, what is your day to day work? [25:23] STAN Hmm my day-to-day work probably doesn’t look too different from many people. I’m a parent; I have a five, almost six-year-old, son. And I have shared custody with his father. And so on days when he’s with me, I actually wake up at like 4:30 in the morning, and I wake up, and I shower, and I go to make a matcha latte for myself every morning. And I come out and I answer emails, I try my best to catch up on like Slack, on text messages, on WhatsApp, on Viber, on Signal, on my work email versus my personal email, and um what else is there? Messenger. So that’s kind of normal, I imagine, I think we all have these mornings of having to try to catch up with all that stuff. And then I get him ready for school, take him to school, and it’s a privilege that allows me to do that, and I come back and I work. And so some days that’s with Out in Schools, where I’m talking about queer and gender issues with young people in high schools. And sometimes in elementary schools. And other days it’s going to meet my own clients at their offices. And then other days, it’s staying home um and doing like UX work. So for me that’s everywhere from leading a workshop, like I did this morning, where I’m presenting to clients whatever our ideas are, whatever our proposals are, and then other days I’m heading off to go teach. And then I come home and I try to fit in some yoga somewhere. And pick up my son and then do things with him in the evening, feed him, put him to bed. And do some more work and then go to bed. That’s my day. SWB I think a lot of our listeners can relate to sort of the juggle and trying to figure out what the right mix of things is in a day and how to have some time for yourself amid everything else. Can you tell us more — like what was your journey into becoming a designer? How did you end up in this sort of life that you’ve crafted for yourself now? STAN I lucked into it, I think. I remember I was in high school and I had really no real idea about what I wanted to do and somebody came into the school who was an alumni and did a presentation. And she worked in — she worked in marketing for an ad agency. And I just thought her job sounded really cool. I liked that she got to like talk to people and I liked hearing about how she got to like come up with ideas to do things and like sell things to people, which I feel so much like cringey shame about now. But at the time it sounded really interesting. Um so I went into the university and studied communications but partway through my program, I did a certificate in innovative leadership from SFU, Simon Fraser University, and it was an eight-month program where the first four months we did workshops, and the last four months we got to do like a practical project with a local company. And the company that I happened to work with was a leadership development company. And at the end of this project, which was, funnily enough, all about looking at how people within the organization viewed their leadership skills, as opposed to people who are like several levels away from them. How did those people view their executives leadership skills. At the end of the project, the person I’d been working with at this company said, “Oh I noticed you like — maybe had some graphic skills. You know we really need a graphic designer.” And I’m like, “Well, I’m like — I’m taking my first course in design right now.” “Well, that’s great! That’s more knowledge than we have!” And so they hired me and I started off just like making PowerPoints and doing a lot of things in print, working within business development and supporting people people in sales. Packing suitcases. I did a lot of packing suitcases. But along the way I learned a lot about like leadership and leadership models and um when we talk about adult learning, that realm is something that I gained a lot of experience with over six years. And so at the same time I was still in school, had abandoned communications, and had — was fully in design now, and then I went away on an amazing field school and came back and was pregnant! So I took a year off. And I will say this is like — this is an important part of my professional journey, this is an important part of my growth and journey as a person, because having my son changed everything. I’ve always been someone that was really into research. So the moment I got into something, or the moment I found out about something new, I’d like totally geek out and go read every book, watch every movie and documentary, and talk to every person I could find about the thing. Uh I get really excited about new hobbies and interests. So I got really excited about being pregnant, and about birth, and about breastfeeding, um and about being a parent. And when that happened, I began to see the ways in which I had to make really, really clear decisions. So the same way in marketing or in design, you have to have a reason as to why you’re doing something for a certain desired outcome, I knew that I wanted my son, I wanted my child to be happy, and I knew that I wanted him to be really kind, and I knew that I wanted him to be really safe. Like I wanted him to live. Right? Like that’s all I really wanted and I knew that I had to make decisions to support that. And so that was like — we raised him vegan for the first like year because we felt it was important for him to have the choice, right? It was important for him to know that you don’t have to eat animals but you can and that’s your choice. But do you know what you are doing if you are going to that? So he still doesn’t really eat animals. But that’s still something that applied to me in my life. I began to think about like what am I doing? Is this who I want to be? Is this how — what powers do I have as an individual to like make all those things happen for him? And it made me really political. Like all of a sudden, things that I have always had values about like really mattered because I’d made an investment in the future by having him, and I needed to invest in the future. And then I got laid off from my job. The job that I’d had for six years. I was a marketing assistant or a project assistant but I was never actually a designer. And I was feeling a lot of doubt about this and I have a mentor at school, Russell Taylor, who is kind of the father to like so many of us in this design program. And I reached out to him and I said, “Well, I got laid off. I really love design but I have no design skills. I didn’t finish my degree.” And he goes, “Well come back and teach for me. Um like you know this stuff. You’ve taken this course and I like — I feel confident that you’re going to do a good job in this.” And so he brought me back and had me teaching his second year course with him. And then at the same time he was developing a conference that was in its second year. And at this conference, he brought in agencies and different companies to like do talks but also to do interviews. And while I was teaching, I also applied for an interview at this conference, and I came out of the conference and I was offered — I was offered some jobs! My first job in which I would get to call myself a designer. And so, Sara, this is where it kind of comes back around to you because this job was the first job that I gone in to do the interview and really felt like, “This is who I am. And like I don’t know these things. This is what I’m working on. Um please see some potential in me!” Like, “Please take some faith in me because I think I can do this.” Uh and I felt really good about some of the things that I felt were just really natural and inherent to me. And they absolutely said, “Yeah!” Like, “We think you can do this. We think that you can kick it out of the park. I feel confident putting you in front of like our — any client, right from the getgo.” And this was my manager, Robin Ashmore, and so it was the first job where I’m like, “Oh. Ok. Like I can admit that I don’t really know this but I can learn this and I can develop in these areas where I think I’m good.” And part of how he supported me was allowing me to go to that conference DCC, Design & Content, which is how I met Sara! And at this time though I was beginning to get really bitter, um I was beginning to look around and see that we, as designers, have all this potential to build things that really make a difference in the world and really help people, and yet we’re like focused on how to get snacks. Or we’re building technology that is actually enabling violence against marginalized people. So I — even now I tell people that I feel shame around calling myself a designer because as a whole, this industry is causing so much more problems than it is helping and I think so many of us have this power and opportunity to actually do something about it, and we’re afraid to. And we don’t. For whatever reasons. And some people have more ability to do something about it then others and I really do mean this in like ability, privilege, some people have more privilege in order to make change happen. Um but I went to this conference, I went to DCC, I met Sara. I’m like, “Oh!! There’s designers who really do see the same things I see! Who really are concerned about the same things that I’m concerned about.” And there are people who, like you, Sara, who want better things out of tech, who want designers to do better things — the tech industry to do better things. And so I began to look for places in which I could try to do better things and I could try to learn on how to be a better designer. This is where I’m at right now. Like I’m still working on that. I’m still trying to influence and like bring kindness into the world, bring safety into places where I think people need someone to invite them in or to support them while they’re there. So yeah that’s where I am right now. [35:25] SWB Well, I am so proud and kind of tearing up a little bit to think that I played even just like a tiny, tiny, little role in your story— STAN Big role! SWB —oh gosh! Ok, ok I wouldn’t — I wouldn’t oversell that. I really think like, you know, your work and your what you are bringing to your community is— is big and different than anything that I do. So I definitely don’t want to oversell what I might’ve played a role in. Something that I’m really interested in hearing more about that you mentioned a little bit ago is the work that you’re doing with Out in Schools. So can you tell us a little bit about that organization and how you got involved with them? STAN Yeah, oh. So I guess one of the key parts of the story that was a huge pivot point in my life, that happened shortly before I met Sara, is that I realized that I was queer. And I like to say that I “realized” because it was something that kind of — it’s always been a part of me. It’s who I am. I am a queer person. But I didn’t have the words for it and I didn’t know that’s what other people were calling it and when this happened, I was 27, I had already had my son, Noah, and I had a cis male partner. And realizing I was queer, finding queer community, making queer friends, really like embracing and exploring what that could mean for me was like so amazing! It sounds so cheesy, but I really did feel like I was born again. And I was also really disappointed and sometimes embarrassed to admit that I was 27. And I think about how I grew up with very conservative parents. I think they’re a little bit more liberal now than they used to be but they are conservative, they’re still very Catholic. I grew up in a very Catholic cishet family. And I was also really protected, care for, loved, I still am. And for them, that meant sheltering me from just sexuality in general. And so that included putting me in an all-girls private school um great school, I mean great academics but it was also an all girls Catholic private school. So we didn’t get sex-ed. And when I was 27, I realized that I was queer and I was so happy about it because I think like being queer is so liberating, and so fun. I really wanted to make it happen — or contribute to a culture where queerness is normalized. And so I found the Queer Film Festival, I met some people there, including some facilitators from Out in Schools, and they became my friends. Jen Sung, in particular, reached out and was like, “Hey! You kind of said that you would love to do this. Were you serious?” And I said, “Yes!” And she goes, “Well! We’re hiring! You should submit an application!” And I submitted an application and became an Out in Schools facilitator. So we’re led by Gavin Somers and Brandon Yan, and we go around to high schools, and elementary schools, and we talk to young people about queer and trans issues using media, like using film. So we watch movies with them, we watch music videos with them and we lead discussions. And it’s interesting in the ways in which like that also ties back into the skill I have around facilitation because that’s part of what I do in my job as a designer. So I get to practice, like, being in front of people, and presenting, and engaging with audiences. Like, in everything that I do, in many places in my life. [39:24] SWB That’s such a cool additional piece to your professional profile that I didn’t know about until — you know just now, right? Like you being involved with Out in Schools seems like, in some ways, you know, really different from doing the design work, but it feels very natural, the way that you talk about it all together. STAN Thanks. It feels really natural to me. SWB I’m also curious, you know, you mentioned coming out as queer at 27 and sort of realizing to yourself that that was even the case and I know that in that same time period you also started going by different pronouns, and coming out as non-binary, and I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about what that was like? And especially what was that like, you know, in the context of work where that seems like maybe it could be a challenging thing to do. STAN Well, what had happened was that you did this amazing talk and you were really vulnerable and real and talked about how important it was to like create spaces and technologies that allowed and encouraged people to be who they are uh rather than try to force them to fit in any particular box. And I came up to you and I was in tears, I remember this, because I had this name tag and the name tag actually had my name, like “Stevie” was on it, but Stevie’s like — is not my given name. And I was expressing to you, like, “Oh my god, how amazing is it that, yeah the Eventbrite form for the conference was like, shout out to Steve Fisher and Shannon Fisher for recognizing the significance and importance of this. But the conference signup form allowed me to input my name. Like it didn’t ask me for a piece of ID to like prove that that was my name.” And I’m like tearing up now, thinking about it, but yeah that’s like it was the first piece of paper that I wore around my neck that allowed me to identify myself and identify myself to other people as Stevie. And it was in a professional context. And then all the speakers, everybody that I met that weekend like called me Stevie. Like everybody that knows me from that time onwards, calls me Stevie and so it felt so good. I came back and I didn’t immediately do it but from then on, anytime I introduced myself to somebody I was like, “No, Stevie.” Like I’d been doing this previously, as a nickname to personal friends but not professional contacts. And being at Design and Content, meeting people who would use my name eventually I think, a couple weeks later, gave me the confidence to actually casually, jokingly at work say, “Actually! Like all my friends call me Stevie.” And so my co-workers were like, “Do you want us to call you Stevie?” And I’m like, “Yes!!!” And I had another amazing colleague, like Jason Landry, he reached out to me privately on Slack and said, “Hey, I know that you’re going by Stevie.” And like, “Awesome! Stevie’s a great name. I just wanted to check in. Like have your pronouns changed? Like what pronouns would you like me to refer to you as?” So at the time I said, “Oh um like no, like, she/her is fine.” And she/her is great. I just don’t use she/her anymore. Like they/them is super comfortable to me. Like it makes me feel really good. And so I use they/them and eventually like it was people in my team making me feel like welcome. And doing that work of like welcoming me as opposed to me having to step out and be vulnerable is what allowed me to come to work and tell people, “My name is Stevie.” And now like over time I’ve built enough confidence to include it in my email signature. If I meet someone new, I always say, “Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen. My pronouns: they/them/theirs.” So I try to assert myself and I know that from what we tell young people in schools, every time that I do that, I can help somebody else feel more comfortable sharing their pronouns. And as a practice of allyship, that’s the best thing folks can do is share their pronouns. SWB I love that story so much and I’m so thankful that you had a colleague who reached out to you sort of made it ok for you to say like, “Yeah, actually I prefer to go by different pronouns.” Was that a scary conversation to start to have? Like the first few times you were doing that in these professional settings? STAN Mm hmm yeah. And I mean, let’s be honest, my team, most of the people on my team are great. They use they/them pronouns. Some people still make mistakes. I think it’s interesting the way in which every time someone new comes onto the team, if I don’t already know them, I have to find a time or an opportunity to, hopefully, quickly get in there and let them know that my pronouns are they/them/theirs before they hear maybe the wrong pronoun from somebody else, or make an assumption, and then I eventually have to awkwardly correct them. But yeah it was initially really hard because I didn’t even understand the — like once I understood how it felt empowering to me, it was hard because there was always a lot of explaining. People like need explanations or they look at me, you know, like, “Wait. What does that mean?” And they like — I think — I think people look at me and they’re like, “Wait. What does that mean for your body parts?” SWB Which um is — has nothing to do with it at all. STAN Exactly. But— SWB It is not an appropriate question for work — like pretty much ever. STAN Well it’s just like — I don’t think it needs to be even verbally said sometimes, it’s just like people stop and look like the same way. Some folks know — like particularly feminine-presenting folks knows what it looks when someone looks at you and looks you up and down [mm hmm]. I think like queer and trans and non-binary folks, we know what it looks like when you look at us and you’re like, “Mmm,” like, “What’s under your clothes and how do you have sex?” [44:55] SWB Which I, you know, I understand that it’s kind of uncomfortable for people when they are first presented with pronoun and gender stuff that they’ve not encountered before and that they don’t understand, and um and then even still, you know, I mean I think I, for example, like I have several friends who would identify as non-binary or who identify as, let’s say they’re trans, and I have tried to unlearn some of that like default gender binary language and it’s hard. And I screw it up. And I screw it up oftentimes when I have, you know it’s like something gets coded in my brain early on, whether it’s an assumption, or whether it’s something where, you know, I have a friend who I met when they presented as male and they, at some point, came out as trans. And they’re a woman. And I sometimes still have like that little mental like kind of hiccup right? That like is about the history that I have with them, and sort of having to shift my thinking, I mean that just is what it is but that that’s up to me, right? Like it’s my job. It’s my job to figure that out. It’s not their job to figure that out. And if I feel weird or if I have to like go through an extra like you know mental circuit in order to make sense of it and make sure that I’m doing it correctly, like, that’s work that is on me to do. And that the more I do that kind of work, the easier it becomes. And that’s kind of like the way that I’ve tried to deal with it but I think it’s — I think it’s something that seeing people like you who are willing to be vulnerable and to say, “Hey, this is who I am.” And to know that you might get reactions that aren’t positive and that aren’t good. I think that that’s — it’s such a gift, I think, to the rest of us, in terms of opening our minds and helping us get to a more inclusive place. KL I also just want to say that— that you said something, you said the words, “practice of allyship,” and I wrote that — I just wrote that down because I like that so much and I feel like if we can just share that as much as possible, that is — that is such a gem of a thing to think about. STAN Let me — let me credit that Mariame Kaba who is @prisonculture on Twitter because I heard Mariame — actually I may be pronouncing this wrong: M-A-R-I-A-M-E. I heard her speak on a webinar, which is run by Talila Lewis, TL Lewis, who does not use any pronouns, and this is what they — the whole discussion was about, was about the practice of allyship. That no one gets to say like, “I am an ally! So I am done!” Like it’s not about what this identity, it’s about how do you continue to practice allyship. KL Exactly. It’s like — it really, truly is a practice. It’s like all things that you, you know, I’m — at least I know for myself that I want to get good at, you know, between yoga, and just being a, you know, a better friend and publisher and coworker. It’s— it really, truly takes practice. And you have to be — you have to be aware of that. STAN Yeah, and it takes like that, like what you talked about earlier, Sara, that constant, the constant practice and I think when we’re in community with other people, we’re all practicing our allyship to marginalized people, and marginalized communities, there has to be a practice of forgiveness as well. Like grace, for us as individuals, and the practice of forgiveness for each other. Like I wouldn’t know anything I know if somebody didn’t tell me I was wrong if somebody didn’t like — wouldn’t forgive me, and like didn’t cast me out of their life because I made a mistake, but it also has to come from a place of like being willing to sit around and like shut up sometimes. SWB So as somebody who has gotten more comfortable bringing your whole identity to work, and who has kind of gone through some of those scary parts, what would you tell someone or what advice would you have for somebody who is thinking about some of the same things, about being able to be more of their authentic selves in their professional environments and being able to kind of fuse maybe some of the stuff that they’ve kept personal or private with the way that they present professionally. [49:40] STAN Hmm. What would I tell someone? I think the first thing I would want to make sure is that person feels safe. And I know this word like “safe” or “safety” gets thrown around a lot. But, quite honestly, what are your risks and dangers? And what violence may you face if you fully — if you bring yourself fully? And this is me speaking from a position of privilege of where I am able to bring myself to work, where every part of me is at least, at the very least, recognized and acknowledged. And then I would say: surround yourself in community and with allies to support you through it. I don’t think I could do it if I didn’t think — like I don’t think I could show up, assert my name, assert my pronouns, talk about my politics, if I thought that I would be attacked in any way, or punished in any way. And so that — that’s sort of required first. Make sure you’re safe and make sure you have support. And then, like show up and be real. This — it’s, again, cheesy sayings but I was tweeting, I tweeted about it this morning. But this idea of like nobody — I don’t know anything other than my own experience and I have so little that I know, but all I know is like myself. And so if I show up at work as myself, then I’m in a state of being in my greatest power. And I think if you can find a workplace where they want you to be there in your greatest power, then like, yeah, show up. This is how you do it. KL I love that. STAN Does that help? SWB That’s so great. That is so great. Yeah. So, very last question then is you mentioned safety and the importance for people who are going to do something vulnerable, whether that’s you know coming out at work or anything else, to feel like they have some sense of safety. So what can listeners do who feel like they can — they have some power in their workplace or in the organizations they’re part of, to help foster that safety for people. Like what are some of the ways that we can ensure that more of the people that we work with feel safe around us? STAN Well I think for people of marginalized identities, yeah, showing up so that you can be that example, so that you can be another person who like makes someone feel safe because you see someone who’s similar to you. That’s one way. But if you aren’t, like if you are someone who is in a position of privilege and power, gosh, like: not punishing people. How do you make — how do you make that space? Inviting it? Educating yourself? Like and making it — like I’ll bring it back to the beginning: like making it personal. I think if you genuinely care about the people in your company, then these are things worth learning about and these are things worth like not just acknowledging and recognizing and forgiving, for some reason, like if you think it’s wrong and you “forgive” them for this thing. Like get past that point where you can love them for that. [55:08] STAN I think that’s it. FYOTW SWB I have a pretty important Fuck Yeah tonight. It’s the Fuck Yeah to the um real champagne that Katel brought over today. KL Uh we have to take this moment to say a little “Fuck yeah” to ourselves because we made it onto the New and Noteworthy in Apple Podcasts and I’m really excited because we are a little, indie podcast that we started because we just really wanted to talk to each other and see where this went and, I’m psyched. SWB We started talking a while back about how much we were really hoping we could get onto the New and Noteworthy list because it’s a really good way to get new audience, and have people kind of be aware of you, plus it just feels good to know that what you’re doing is working. And, when I started looking at the other shows that were on there, almost all of them were supported by a bigger brand. It was like a podcast coming from Gimlet, or a podcast coming from Slate, or some other organization that was backing them and funding them, and so it’s a kind of a big deal to have a podcast like this that’s completely independently run be able to make it onto that list. Or at least, it feels like a big deal to me. JL Fuck yeah! It’s a big deal! KL Feels like a huge deal. SWB And I was also thinking about how much of a big deal to see a podcast ran by women, and more podcast run by women coming out because I feel like for a long time, there were just so few. I remember seeing a stat the other day that was like something like 70 percent of podcasts are run by men. And I don’t know if that’s true. Like it wasn’t the kind of stat that I felt like I could easily back up. But it is something that’s talked about quite a lot in the industry is just how male-dominated podcasting is. And how almost all of the biggest name podcasts are run by men. And, you know, there’s some really great podcasts run by men. It’s not like there aren’t but like man, there are so many interesting women doing interesting things. And I would love to hear from more of them. And, like, that’s what we’re doing. JL Yeah! I mean, also, fuck yeah women’s history month! And with that in mind I just started looking — I went a little Google-wild again and I just started looking at all these like, you know there’s all these lists, it’s the internet; of course there’s lists. But I just started looking into more like women-run podcasts and I just started going through them all — and I just — I have so many queued up right now. I’m so excited to listen to them all because I feel like, again, the more we support each other as women podcasters, the more that we get our — like we share our message! And we keep listening to each other and raising each other up! So it’s been so fun to try to listen to some of these other podcasts also. Katel, I know that you have been like super into one recently. KL Yeah, I gotta be honest: I’m actively looking for more podcasts that are just basically more diverse voices. And one that I really like lately is by a music artist that I just really love, her name is Lizzo. And if you don’t know her, just Spotify that shit immediately because it will make you feel good and it’s totally worth it. But she has a new podcast, that I think launched like right around the same time ours did, which is so cool, and it’s on Spotify. She describes it as, “A safe space for the baddest women in music.” She’s an alternative rapper, she sits down with iconic queens and rising stars and basically sets the record straight on making a name in a very male-dominated world in music. So I just love that. I love her. I’m so happy that I get to hear her not only sing but also talk and talk with other women. JL What’s the podcast called? KL Sorry, I should’ve said that! It’s called Good As Hell which is also just a really fucking good name. And yeah it’s really inspiring and you should take a listen. JL Maybe we could do a crossover episode: No, You Good. KL That would be amazing! SWB I love this whole concept because it feels like a sister podcast to No, You Go. Because I think that that’s really like — similar stuff we’re trying to do. Obviously we don’t have as many connections in music but if any, like, musical stars want to be on our show, that’s great. JL Kesha! [Ahem.] SWB Kesha is definitely like Jen’s number one dream guest. She’s literally on a spreadsheet right now. But I think that — that’s a lot of the same stuff that we’re trying to talk about, right? It’s like who are the most badass women and non-binary people we have encountered in our professional lives who are doing great things and who have something to say to the world? And how can we talk about ways to elevate their voices and make spaces that are more inclusive? So fuck yeah to women-run podcasts. JL Fuck yeah! KL Fuck yeah on New and Noteworthy. [59:59] JL Well, that’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go! The show about being ambitious— and sticking together. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia and produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. Thanks to Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen for being our guest today. If you like what you’ve been hearing on our podcast, we would love it if you subscribed and rated us on Apple Podcast where we’ve been New and Noteworthy! And fuck yeah! New and Noteworthy! Deserved! Your support really helps us spread the word. We’ll be back next week with another great guest.

The conversation starts with Lara discussing her start in technology which believe it or not started with Lord of the Rings, international studies, a semester in Prague, and photography. Lara then goes in and discusses how she started speaking publicly, how she prepares to for a presentation, and why she wrote the book "Demystifying Public Speaking". The panel then talks travel and their tips for traveling. Lara then shares about her trip to New Zealand and what she does when she's away from the keyboard. Links Lara's book: Demystifying Public Speaking Lara's website Lara on Twitter Adam Savage at Weta Workshop Bio Lara ...

The process of writing a book including the writing routine, the role of feedback and how she figured out the angle of her book.

On today's show Lawrence and I discuss why group meetings can be such time wasters, the importance of one-one-ones and lawrence's book. Over the last 18 years, Lawrence Krubner  has been the technical co-founder of 3 different startups that he has led to success. He has also seen millions of dollars wasted on poorly run projects that he have had to turn around and save. Turning around a failing project can go smoothly, so long as everyone on the team can be completely honest about why a project was failing up to that point. He is a proponent of the "train fast, fire fast, fail fast, iterate fast" philosophy -- a team should improve itself as much as possible, through training or replacement, and thereby maximize the speed with which it delivers products. Contact Info: http://www.smashcompany.com/ Show Notes: One-on-one meetings are underrated, whereas group meetings waste time I Done This Why Can't They Just by Lara Hogan how to destroy a tech startup in 3 easy steps Peter Drucker Peter Drucker Books on Amazon Grinding It Out: The Making of McDonald's Ship It!

It’s the very first episode of No, You Go! Jenn, Katel, and Sara get together to talk about the itch to get out of a professional rut and start something new—whether that’s changing jobs, launching a company, building a side gig, or maybe even…idk….starting a podcast? > Fuck it, let’s just do it. Let’s be unapologetic women asking to do work, and to be paid fairly for it. > —Becca Gurney, co-founder, Design Choice Read on for more of what we covered, and read the full transcript for all the, like, verbatim quotes, you know? Show notes First, we tell the story of how No, You Go got started: Sara has an idea, but forgets that Austin Kleon already wrote a book called Show Your Work and narrowly avoids totally ripping him off. Jenn shares what it’s like to trade a thousand side projects for some stability—and, oh yeah, one super-cool baby. Katel opens up about how working at home alone can get, well, lonely—and asks us to join her “awesome after-school kickass club.” We all fully embrace the athleisure lifestyle. Next, we kick off the show—and 2018—by hearing how four women who made big changes last year knew it was time for something new: Becca Gurney, co-founder of Design Choice, tells us how the pay gap in the AIGA Design Census plus the 2016 election turned her from freelance designer to outspoken advocate for equality in design. Jenn Schiffer, community engineer for Fog Creek’s Glitch platform, shares how fear kept her stuck in a rut and not doing her best work—until an opportunity to build community for other engineers brought her life back. Lara Hogan, co-founder of Where With All, describes how meeting her now-business-partner led her away from managing engineering teams and toward building a consulting business. Mina Markham, senior front-end architect at Slack (and creator of the famed Pantsuit design system used by the Hillary Clinton campaign), describes trusting her gut to guide her through three new jobs and three cross-country moves in just three years. Also in this episode Archie’s hair, Cheryl Blossom’s lips, and why Riverdale is our favorite CW teen drama Shout outs to Call Your Girlfriend and Shine Theory Jenn’s rad formula for speaking fees post from the Nerdary California Style Sheets forever Lara Hogan’s Donut Manifesto Our endless devotion to Olivia Pope wine glasses Final tips from designer and educator Sam Kapila Many thanks to The Diaphone for the use of their song, Maths, in our theme music! _This episode is brought to you by Codepen—a social development environment for front-end designers and developers. Build and deploy a website, show off your work, build test cases, and find inspiration. _ Transcript JENN LUKAS: This episode of No, You Go is brought to you by CodePen: a social development environment for front-end designers and developers. It’s like a big virtual sandbox where you can build and deploy a website, show off your work, build test cases, and find inspiration. Your profile on CodePen is like your front-end development portfolio. Learn more and create your first Pen at codepen.io. That’s c-o-d-e-p-e-n dot i-o. JL: Welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KATEL LEDÛ: I’m Katel LeDû. SARA WACHTER-BOETTCHER: And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. KL: In today’s inaugural episode of No, You Go, we’re talking about the itch to get out of a rut and start something new. First up, we’ll talk about how No, You Go came to be. Then we’ll listen in as a bunch of badass women tell us how they knew it was time for a change in 2017—and how they made it happen. Also on the agenda: our favorite CW teen drama, the politics of donuts, and breaking out the Olivia Pope wine glasses. [Clink] [Musical intro] How it all began [1:10] SWB: One day, I was actually out for a run with Katel. We were up in this really pretty park and it was the middle of all and we were crunching through the leaves, kind of miserably running some—some 10K distance so that we could justify donuts. And I started telling Katel that I had this podcast idea that was all about: how do you go from kind of doing the work, whatever your job is, to being able to kind of like show your work. Like, speak about it or write about it, or something. Like, how do you go from being somebody who’s kind of more heads-down to being more of that like active or visible member of your professional community? JL: Yeah! KL: Yeah! SWB: And I was like, I had this working title, like “Show Your Work” or something like that. And we were like, that sounds like a fun idea. You know, I just had a book come out in the fall and I was really interested in kind of helping other people understand what that process looks like. A lot of people ask me questions because they don’t necessarily know. JL: Me included. KL: And me! SWB: Yeah! Well, and that’s one of the things that we started to want to talk about, is like: how does that whole thing work? And that’s, you know, just one example, right? I mean, it’s not just writing a book, it’s also like, how do you go from working in a field to like, teaching other people how to do it and leading classes. Those kinds of questions. So, I really wanted to start talking about that more, and Katel was the publisher of one of my books, and so I thought she would be like an ideal person to talk about that with. KL: And I thought that was a great idea. I think “Show Your Work” was actually an awesome name for a show—we should do that also. JL: Let’s get this one off the ground first! KL: All right, okay. So, yeah, I am the CEO of A Book Apart and published one of Sara’s books—it’s amazing. And I moved to Philly about two years ago after living in DC for most of my life, and Sara and I became besties really quickly because we had a lot in common. Namely, loving slash hating running and hating running to love donuts, even more. So, one night we were all sitting actually at Jenn’s house, and we were drinking wine and watching Riverdale as we do—we’d all gotten together and [that’s] another thing that we loved and had in common. And we brought it up to Jenn and she got really excited. JL: To be fair, Sara’s giving me that look like, “I’m not quite sure I’m sold on the Riverdale.” SWB: No! I was just thinking, can we have a sidebar about Archie’s hair for a second? JL: Mhmm, Archie’s hair. KL: And now, did you know Sara’s really into Riverdale? JL: Ooh! Did you catch up? SWB: I am super caught up. And Archie’s hair is still ridiculous. And I’m pretty sure that Cheryl Blossom’s lip liner gets bigger and bigger every single episode. JL: It’s awesome. SWB: It’s gonna be her entire face soon. KL: It’s so good. Maybe that’s what I need to do, is just go big with the liner. JL: I love it. You know, I forget, Katel, if you told me this—I always had a problem with Archie’s hair but then, you brought up that like, it helps if you remember that it’s a comic book and then it makes the extreme-ness of his hair a little bit more acceptable. KL: Right, it’s like, it makes the TV show juicy, or like, pulpy? I mean… “juicy” is maybe not the right word, but you know what I mean! SWB: No, no, no, let’s stick with juicy. JL: No, I do know what you mean! And you know, sometimes we just have to watch an episode of Riverdale after a long day. SWB: For professional reasons. JL: But for me, it was super awesome because I just had a child ten months ago, yes indeed. And so, with a child and I’m back working full time—I work as an engineering manager and UI architect down at Urban Outfitters. And sometimes, my lovely friends will come over after my child goes to sleep and we’ll watch Riverdale and talk shop. Which is awesome, ’cause you start to feel a little bit alienated to some extent, from your previous life and you have this awesome new life going one. But then you like, miss parts of your old, so it was really nice to have my friends come to me so that I could keep trying to figure out how to make this balance work. And maybe balance isn’t even the right word, but to like figure out how I can keep doing things that I love along with the new things I love. So, it was super awesome. [5:00] SWB: Yeah, something Jenn has not quite mentioned, is just how much stuff she used to do in terms of like, speaking and side projects, constantly. Like, when I first met Jenn, every other week, I swear it was like, “Oh, I just started this podcast called Ladies In Tech,” or “Oh, I’m working on this web series called Cook Inside the Box, where we make recipes off the back of boxes.” And it was so cool to see her doing all this stuff, and like a lot of people, it’s really hard to do all of that stuff when you have really little kids and a lot of kind of, responsibilities at work. But what we want to talk about, is, how do we make space for some of that and kind of integrate it into our lives no matter what other stuff is going on. JL: That’s what was so nice about talking with you two, is figuring out how that can work. And I know you’ve both been amazing soundbars for me. And I feel very lucky to have both of you in my life and I think that is a lot about what we’re basing this podcast on. It’s like, how we can be stronger together with people who support us and figuring out how to do these things. Even if you’re working with new—and I mean, using a stretch here of calling it a constraint—but, we’re used to like, how we work with constraints. And this is just a new, different part of my life, and it’s really nice to be able to talk to y’all about how that works. KL: This also feels like just a really awesome after school kick-ass club that I’m super excited about. And I feel like, sometimes, you know I don’t have kids and you know that’s a really tough thing to figure into your life when you’re going from, you know, not having them to having them and a career and everything. And I think even for someone who doesn’t have them, it’s like, you’re still trying to manage a bunch of different things and figure out how to like, stay excited, and go outside and like, meet with people and hang out not you know, become a total hermit like I like to do. JL: Oh my god, going outside is so hard sometimes. KL: Exactly! SWB: But I think, this really speaks to the way that I think the idea for the podcast evolved. When we started talking about it with Jenn, what we realized is that, for a lot of us who, you know, consider ourselves ambitious and sort of really interested in our careers but also kind of non-traditional about it. Like not necessarily interested in only ever working at one single company and a lot of us, you know, work in consulting or small companies or we take on side gigs. You can sometimes end up feeling like you don’t have colleagues. And I think that that’s something I’ve heard a lot from—particularly from women the past couple of years. That they were looking for places where they could connect with other people who got their work, even if they weren’t traditional colleagues. And I really look at that as a big piece of what we’re doing here, is kind of taking the place of having that sort of peer group that you maybe used to have at an office. But if you work in lots of non-traditional settings, you don’t have that anymore. JL: And even when you do work in that, sometimes its you know, you still have a variety of interests. So as you said, I used to do a lot of side projects and that’s totally different than my full time job. So, I think, as we were all sitting on the couch and we were getting more and more excited, that’s sort of where the name of this show came to be. Right? SWB: Yeah, I think one of the things that was really funny about that, was that—so, I was sitting there as Jenn and Katel were kind of going back and forth, like, getting more and more excited and hyped about the show. And all of a sudden, they’re talking over each other and Katel—always the gracious one—is like, “no, you go,” and waits for Jenn. And Jenn goes, “that should be the name of the podcast.” And she kind of laughs and I’m like, wait, stop, no that is the name of the podcast now. So, that’s how we named the podcast and started thinking a lot more about you know, what kind of things we’d cover and where we’d go with it. So, kind of getting outside of that, just the idea of showing your work—although that’s part of it—but more thinking about, what are all the different ways or paths that people take to satisfy their ambition or satisfy their need to, you know, create stuff in the world. And how could we go about highlighting those and helping other people see the different kinds of ways their lives might look. And giving people a little more support along the way as they figure out what that looks like for them. JL: I think also, you know, we’ll talk about challenges of being ambitious. I think there’s a lot of things that all people, but especially for us as women, that we always have to balance, right? Being too abrasive versus being too nice and how we manage that in this world—to achieve some of the things that we’re trying to set out to do. SWB: I was thinking about, one of the other podcasts I really like, Call Your Girlfriend—the hosts on that show talk about shine theory. And for them, shine theory is this idea, like, I don’t shine if you don’t. So, the idea is you’re going to have you know, like, you want the smartest and most accomplished women by your side because actually everybody’s better when your friends are successful, too. And I think about that a lot when I think about this show because I’ve got some like, pretty accomplished women by my side working on it. And I think that that is an incredible way to look at how do we, you know, how do we navigate our lives, and how do we think about ambition. [10:00] Because we’re always looking toward these other people that we totally respect and that we can learn so much from, and they’re looking right back at us. And I think it creates this environment where we can be really supportive of each other and also get a little bit more comfortable kind of like, celebrating that ambitious side of ourselves and not pretending it’s not there. Which I think is often what women are expected to do. KL: Yeah, this actually tied back to, Sara, what you were saying a little bit earlier, about you know, having colleagues and we all work in kind of, I think, different setups these days. It’s not necessarily like, Sara and I don’t even go into an office most days, and we have meetings sort of from wherever. And even though you know, we’re all friends and we have—our professions and our careers are kind of intertwined because we work in the same field or area— we don’t work together physically. But we talk and speak and write about similar things and I think we have passions about the same things. And especially in terms of trying to lift other folks up and finding ways to actually do that. We all work in different setups these days and you know, a lot of us—Sara and I included don’t even necessarily go into offices everyday, but I think it’s really important to feel like you have some kind of camaraderie. Some kind of network that you’re able to rely on in your work and obviously outside of that work. For me, it’s been so critical because I literally work by myself in my home and I have—I work with a lot of team members that are just distributed. So for me to have folks that I can see regularly and talk about things that are related to the work I do is so important. I think I was really missing that from going from a big company like National Geographic to a company that was a small startup. That was a huge shock, that was a big change. You know, working with fifty people a day and then all of a sudden being by myself. So this has been incredibly important. I think being able to extend that and hopefully share that and build a community around that is super exciting. JL: Totally. SWB: Yeah, like I remember when I quit my last real job, which was in 2011, I was working at an agency. And I went from an agency to freelancing and consulting in doing content strategy and UX work. And at first, I will tell you I did not have this kind of network. I was mostly feeling really kind of alone in my work. And I would work on a project and get in with the team on that project but they weren’t really ever my team. And so over the years I’ve certainly like built up this collection of you know, like, really cool people who get what I do and who are just there for me. And that network has made all the difference. I don’t think that I would still be consulting, much less speaking and writing books and stuff like that, if I had not built that kind of community. And that’s something I want more people to experience because I think that it’s one of the only things that can kind of help keep you sane and happy. KL: I feel like the dream used to be work from home, and like work for yourself and you know, be your own bossa and sort of be the master of your own time. And it’s great, it has so much—it gives you a lot of freedom and there’s a lot of flexibility but it’s also very lonely a lot of the time and you know, I think you need to find something that actually helps you get through those lonely times. JL: Yeah. SWB: Yeah, like I want the yoga pants, but I also want the like, deep personal friendships. KL: Right! SWB: That come with seeing people really regularly. And so, you know, it’s how do we make a life for ourselves that kind of can bring us both. JL: I got news for you: athleisure. Is my office wear. SWB: Trust me, I have gone full force into the athleisure lifestyle and I am not looking back. So one thing that I do think about, though, in this whole conversation about kind of finding that community and helping to help others, you know, figure out what their path is, is that Jenn, Katel, and I—we really come from relatively similar backgrounds. You know, like we’re similar age and we’re all based in Philly, and we’re all white ladies with professional jobs. Having a lot in common is really good, but we do know that that could be a pretty limited view of what it’s like to work as a woman. In fact, it would be incredibly limited. So one thing that’s really important to us and that we want to do on this show is make sure that we’re bringing in people with a lot of different experiences and different backgrounds. And make sure that we are getting things from perspectives that the three of us would never have. [Musical interlude] JL: You know, speaking of hearing from other voices, I think it’s time we get into our main segment. But before we do, we are so excited to tell you about the sponsor who’s making this very first episode of No, You Go possible: Codepen. CodePen is a powerful tool that allows designers and developers to write code—like HTML, CSS, and JavaScript—directly in a browser and see the results as you build. Whether you’re new to front-end code or been writing it for years, it’s the perfect place to learn front-end programming languages, show off what you create, build test cases, get help on tricky problems—and find inspiration. Whenever I have a new idea and I want to get right to making it happen, you know, I don’t want to have to deal with setting up the environment or setting up hosting or build tools, I just go right to CodePen and start building. I can share that code with others on my team and see what they think about it, and then we can go from there. CodePen has so many cool things to explore—like CodePen PRO and Projects, where you can explore tons of awesome Pens. Get inspired and learn from others, and share with them at the same time. Sign up and get started by visiting codepen.io/hello. [Musical interlude] We introduce the badass lady brigade [15:30] JL: So how do we know when it’s time for something new? SWB: That’s a question we asked a bunch of women who had made big changes in 2017—job changes, life changes, that kind of thing. To get us started, let’s hear from one of our favorites. BECCA GURNEY: This is Becca Gurney, half of Design Choice, a graphic design studio in Washington, DC, where we have the aim of empowering women to lead, to get paid, and to be awesome. Our central mission and idea is that we almost make the conscious choice to pay women fairly for the work that they do, and before you can pay them you have to choose them to do the work. So for the four years leading up to this one, I had been freelancing, and I had just fallen into freelancing. I didn’t choose it, I didn’t really go out and take a risk and say hey, this is what I want to do. It was there and I did it, and I just kept doing it. But I had been feeling really unfulfilled and pretty aimless in it. I wasn’t doing great work. I was just doing work, and there was no real point to it. It was awesome that I could make my own schedule and I could go home to make jam whenever I wanted, because I was feeling jammy. But I didn’t think of myself as successful or empowered. And then the election happened, and I didn’t feel successful or empowered. And I was looking around at the leaders in our industry, which is mostly dudes, and I didn’t feel successful or empowered. The AIGA Census data came out and women in my area at my level are being paid $20,000 less a year than men. And so hey, I don’t feel successful or empowered. And the moments that sparked any sort of a feeling that felt good were the moments that I was with women, talking about being fucking unapologetic women. And how could I do that through design and Stacey Maloney was in a bunch of those conversations, and we said, “Fuck it, let’s just do it; let’s be unapologetic women asking to do work and to be paid fairly for it.” And we started Design Choice. JL: How awesome. SWB: I love so much about this. Fucking unapologetic women. I think we qualify, right? JL: I hope so. KL: I think so. Let’s get there if not [laughs]. SWB: Katel, how do you know Becca? KL: We got to be friends when I was in DC. I started working at a coworking space to try to get a little more face time with other human beings when I started this solo thing. And she was just awesome. We became friends really quickly, and we sort of went through some growing pains at this particular coworking space because of management that was not empowering and didn’t make us feel confident about working there, and we moved to a different one. We shared an office. We just really became good friends and got to know each other. Becca is one of those people who, you know that if she says something, that she’s going to do something, she’s gonna do it. She just shows up and she’s such a rock star. I hate using that word, but she is, she absolutely is. She’s creative and amazing and when I listened to this recording that she sent, I almost teared up because I was thinking, oh my gosh, I have felt so similarly—that feeling of like, you’re doing all these things that you’re supposed to be doing, you’re making the money, you’re going to the meetups, you’re doing all the things, but you don’t feel empowered and you don’t feel successful. And like, what is that? And trying to pull all of that apart and get at the root of why, and figure out what you’re going to do to change that, is huge. It’s so huge. And the fact that she came out of that and created this agency, and it isn’t just helping her feel successful and empowered, but also doing really fucking amazing work for companies that should be employing women, is just so rad. SWB: Yeah, I love this idea of her saying that this company is explicitly about hiring women and paying women fairly. And that’s really built into the fabric of it, and she’s not afraid to talk about it that way. Because I think about it in terms of how I spent my own year. [20:00] I think something that I did in 2017 is get comfortable with the idea that my work simply was political—that I couldn’t really create an artificial boundary between the things that I care about professionally, talking about a user’s experience of a piece of software or a website, and the things that I care about personally, which is basically all social justice issues. And so that really came out when I wrote my most recent book. It’s called Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech, and essentially I am really taking a direct look at this tech industry that I have been part of for a long time, and highlighting some of the ways it’s gone really wrong for people who are often the most vulnerable or the most marginalized. You know, it was hard but I think I got to a place where I was no longer afraid of saying that out loud, and saying that in front of important people who, in the past, I would have been worried wouldn’t have wanted to hire me for consulting. And now, I’m thinking, okay, I need to find a way to make this an organic and natural part of what I do, because I can’t really live with myself otherwise. KL: Yeah, I think you’re totally right, and that whole unapologetic thing—I feel like there’s so much to unpack there, and something we’re grappling with it every day in everything we do. And I know for me it’s kind of like, you tear a little bit away and you’re like, okay, I made some progress. And then you’re like, but wait, is this fitting in in the right space? So I feel like hopefully, if we do enough of these, we’re really going to get in deep in terms of how people are doing that. JL: Becca wasn’t the only one feeling frustration. Let’s hear another story from Jenn Schiffer. JENN SCHIFFER: At the end of 2016, I was feeling really stuck in a rut. I wanted to do good work, but I didn’t feel like I was in a position to do that. I knew I was going to leave, but I wasn’t sure what I was going to do, and I was afraid to make any changes. But then I was very lucky and very fortunate because Fog Creek approached me about doing community engineering for their new product, Glitch.com. And so I’ve been there ever since, and it’s been great, and I feel like I’m doing my best work, and I’m making an impact. And so I’m hoping in 2018 to keep that momentum going. JL: Oh, Jenn Schiffer. She’s is constantly always saying such smart things, and I think that’s one of the reasons that I really just enjoy everything she does. I didn’t meet Jenn in person until a couple of years ago, but I started following Jenn a while ago because she was posting a lot of awesome humor-filled development posts, which was something quite unique, and she had a really great voice. SWB: You mean she trolled dev bros on Twitter? [Laughter] JL: It was the California Style Sheets post a couple of years ago, which is one of my favorites still, and I think it was awesome and it showed a lot of things, because, yes, being written by a woman, I think a lot of people thought, it must not be humor, it must be serious. And that was—ugh—sigh-worthy. But Jenn was awesome, and I followed that, and was lucky enough to have her on the podcast I used to run, with Val Head, Ladies In Tech, where we’d talk about public speaking and Jenn was a guest on our show. We were lucky to have her. She’s done a lot of awesome things. One of the things I love about Jenn is if there’s a gap or something that she wants, she makes it happen. She was living in North Jersey I believe, and working for the NBA at the time, and there was not a meetup and I think she went into the city for them. And so she decided to start her own North Jersey meetup. And so instead of saying, there’s nothing here around me, she started her own. And I think that’s such an important thing that we can do in this industry. And you can see it now, that she is starting something new again. And I think one of the things that she’s always done is helping people learn. A talk she gave recently she had this great quote: “We don’t learn alone.” And I think that’s true in this industry, but also in many industries where we are just better together and we learn more when we’re around each other. KL: You really feel like she’s bringing you along in the learning, when she’s speaking about—when she’s giving a talk or doing a demo or whatever. SWB: I think that’s one of the cool things about this new role that she has. She went from a role where she was doing a lot of programming to a role where she’s the community engineer. That means that she’s doing a lot more of that educational piece, and helping people make use of this tool Glitch, which is from Fog Creek. And what’s really great about it is that it’s a way to not just do the heads down work, but to be doing the showing your work and sharing of things, and making these things more accessible for people. And particularly making these kinds of tools in tech feel accessible to all kinds of folks, right? I think that’s a big piece of how Glitch has positioned itself on purpose, and that’s in no small part to people like Jenn, who are making it feel like a tool that anyone can pick up and use—and not a tool that only super elite programmers from one very particular background can pick up and use. [25:00] And so I love that about her, and I hope that continues to be a really good move for her, because that was an exciting “something new” that happened last year. Something Jenn talked about though, which I think is something that all of us can relate to, is that feeling of frustration, burnout, being bored, or just not feeling like you have space to do your best work. That’s something I’ve certainly felt. I’ve felt it at different points over my career, but certainly when I last quit my job, one of the big reasons is that I was working an ungodly number of hours. I was the last one in the office every night. I literally set the alarm leaving the office every day for like a year straight. And I simultaneously felt like I couldn’t get my head above water. I was trying to do so much, and it didn’t feel like I could go anywhere. One of the ways that I got out of that was quitting my job, but it wasn’t just quitting the job. It was also getting a new outlook to my work. One of the reasons that I quit my job was so that I could write my first book, which was like my first real effort to give my community some of my expertise and knowledge. And that was a really helpful reframe for me to get me out of that rut. And so I’m curious, have you guys had experiences where you feel like you’ve gotten burnt out or frustrated, and how did you move past them? JL: When I left my last full-time job to start consulting, I at the time was doing a lot of public speaking. I was away more than I was home, and I really loved it. That’s really what gave me the courage to quit my full-time job and start something new. There was something I really loved, I knew what I loved, and it was less being frustrated with anything I was currently doing, and more me seeing something that I really loved doing, and figuring out how I could make that happen. I really loved my job at the time, I was a development director at Happy Cog. But I had been doing it for six years. And it was definitely something I loved, but again, six years is a long time, especially in the tech field. And there was this new thing that I loved a lot. Being able to travel and meet people and teach was something that was super important to me, and for me to be able to full commit to that, it almost forced me—or gave me that boost that I needed—to quit my job at the time and go out consulting and have this freedom to do this thing. So, for me the driver was something I really loved and wanting to do, versus being burnt out or frustrated at a current job. SWB: Totally. I loved what you said about, it wasn’t that there was something wrong with what you were doing. Sometimes I think we get stuck in a rut because we’re like, well, I like the stuff that I’m currently doing. But for me at least, part of being happy does really come down to growth or evolution in what I’m doing. So it’s not a matter of me hating anything that came before necessarily, but I want to bring something new into the fold. New people and new experiences. I want something else to kind of keep it interesting. I want to keep it interesting, and if I’m feeling too steady all the time, then I think I’m bored. So I love this idea that it’s like, okay, is there something out there that you’re really excited about, or that you want to be good at that you’re not yet good at that can really drive us to change things up. KL: I’m gonna be real honest here and say that I’m currently burnt out, and I’ve been struggling with that I think for like the last year. SWB: Weird, how could 2017 burn someone out. How is that possible? [Laughter] KL: Yeah, exactly, It’s like, can you just be burnt out just from being burnt out? And I think I’ve worked through a lot of it, not that it’s something—I think at one point I thought, okay, like, this is something else I need to check off my list, getting through burnout. Which is not how it happens and not how you heal from it. It shocked me into realizing that I needed to make some changes in how I approached my scheduling and, you know, my work. But I think sort of related to what you’re talking about, not necessarily saying I need a different job or I need to change career paths. It’s like, before ABA, I would go to work, you do your job. That’s the thing, it’s this packaged thing. And now it’s not like that. A Book Apart is not like that. Granted I’ve been doing it for years, but it just—you start to think, okay, there’s nothing outside of it. Even though there’s lots of stuff outside of it, and I think I just needed to look for it. This is part of it. I think I’m starting to feel a lot less burnt out. I think I also got really confused—or not confused, I got worried, because I started to think that burnout is just fatigue, and it’s not necessarily just fatigue. It could just be you need a fresh take or a new project or whatever. [30:00] SWB: Yeah, and I think it definitely says a lot. The key to fixing burnout is not always necessarily career change, but sometimes it’s just like, perspective shift and remembering all the other things that you love. You know, people talk about work-life balance, and I always really struggle with that conversation, because work is really important to me, and it’s so intertwined with so many pieces of my life. So I don’t look at it as, work is over here and life is over there. But at the same time, I’ve lived the life where work was consuming me: “Oh, I’m writing this email at 11:30pm.” You know, when you stop seeing any distinction between those different parts of yourself, I think it can be really easy to get so sucked into work, that when things aren’t going well at work, it means that things are not going well for you. So it’s like, if work goes through a rough patch, your whole life sucks, because there’s nothing else there. KL: Right, it’s such a big part of what you do and who you are. And it’s something I never really paused to think about, moving from my twenties to thirties to forties, is that, like, that’s an ongoing thing. It’s an evolution. You don’t just figure it out and then it’s done. SWB: The kind of work that I do evolves all the time, so of course the relationship I have to my work has to evolve all the time to.. That’s only natural. KL: Right. SWB: I think it’s hard sometimes to remember that, because you think, “Oh, well, this used to work for me.” Well guess what, this doesn’t work for me anymore. I am in my mid-thirties now, and my needs are a little bit different. And there are things that I’m not willing to put up with anymore—thank god. JL: Yes. [Laughter] KL: Right. And you can be unapologetic about it. JL: Yeah, and along with being unapologetic, sometimes you really need to trust your gut. Let’s hear from Mina Markham about trusting her gut. MINA MARKHAM: To channel Olivia Pope, it all comes down to a gut feeling with me. When I’m presented with some new opportunity, I kind of do a gut check and see, is this something that I will regret not doing. And if the answer is yes, then I know what I have to do. I have to go ahead and make that change. That’s probably the only thing that can explain how I’ve had so much change in my life the past few years. I’ve had three jobs in three years, all of which required me to pack up my life and move to a new city and basically start over. Each time came with their own instances of doubt or of terror or sometimes just full-on panic, but none of which I have any regrets about doing. So I have learned to trust my gut, trust my instincts to know when it’s time for me to go ahead and make that leap. JL: Oh, Olivia Pope. Inspires me too, but I’ll get to that later. It just inspires me so much when people have the ability to follow their gut, especially when it involves moving. Sara, you’ve moved a ton. SWB: Yeah, I’ve moved a lot of times, and I’ve moved across the country, but I still don’t think I’ve moved as much as Mina Markham has. KL: Yeah, if you’re not familiar with her, Mina was at IBM in Austin at the beginning of those three years she talked about. Then she moved to Brooklyn to work on the Hillary campaign. Now she’s a senior front-end engineer at Slack. So that’s a lot of choices, and a lot of change. And I think trusting your gut becomes really vital in all that. I also think it’s how you get to a place where you actually know what it’s going to look like to have regrets or to not have regrets, and you become okay with it. You kind of can envision it a little bit more. It becomes a cycle that starts to repeat itself, which, that’s how you gain more and more trust in your gut. SWB: What she said reminded me of this column I read a couple of years ago. It’s an advice column called Dear Sugar that Cheryl Strayed used to run. She wrote a response to somebody who asked, like, I’m thinking about having kids, I’m in my late thirties or forty-ish or something like that, and I don’t know if I should, but I think I might regret it. And this person felt like having kids because they thought they might regret not having kids was a bad idea. Now, I don’t have kids. I’m not planning to have kids. But this column really stuck with me, because the way she responded to it, she was like, you know, thinking about your future self and what you might regret is one of the only ways that you can kind of make sense of choices. And she was like, this is actually a really healthy way to look at, like, is this something that I’m going to wish I had done later on? Once you do make a decision, then you have to think of it as other lives that you chose not to lead. I think she called it “the ghost ship that did not carry me.” So it’s like this other ship that you could have been on, but you didn’t take. [35:00] And that would have been this other thing, and you can wave at it from the shore, but it’s not yours. So I think about that a lot when it comes to choices, whether it’s those big life choices, or the smaller day-to-day work choices: what are the ships that I’m choosing to be on? And as long as I’m thinking about where my gut is, and I’m thinking about what is going to be a positive thing for future me, I usually feel pretty good about it. JL: I think this is another habit thing, where the more you get used to making these decisions and being okay with them, the stronger you probably feel being like, this is okay and I’m going to go for this. SWB: Yeah, totally. I think that it’s hard at first to know what does trusting your gut even mean, right? And so I think about, how do I know that I’m trusting my gut? You know, if I start doing something where it’s like, “Ugh, I should really take this project on,” or, “I should really speak at this conference,” and then every time I go to, like, write the email that would be the saying yes email, I get knotted up and I don’t do it, I’ve started to slow down and say, wait a second, why am I sort of hemming and hawing about saying yes to that email? And usually it’s because I have some kind of reservation or misgiving. Versus there are times when people ask me to do something or I am presented with opportunities, and my heart is immediately in it. Now, sometimes I have to say no to those things too, because they don’t fit for one reason or another, but knowing that immediate response of opening yourself up to whatever’s in front of you, versus pushing it away, that means something. And it’s worth taking the time to figure out what your body’s telling you, where that’s coming from. And I think that’s the very beginning of trusting your gut. JL: And sometimes it’s not just about making a decision by yourself. Sometimes you’re lucky enough to find someone else to help you decide what’s next in your life. SWB: Let’s hear from Lara Hogan. Lara is an engineering leader who some of you may have heard of, because it seems like she’s everywhere these days. She was a VP at Kickstarter, and before that she was a senior manager at Etsy, but she’s up to something new, too. Let’s hear about it. LARA HOGAN: How did I know it was time to start something new? In part, it was meeting Deepa, my business partner. She’s just incredible, and with her by my side, I feel like I can do anything. And I also knew that this was the time once I realized, working full-time at a company, I have to do a lot of things all of the time [laughs] that may of course just not be what I want to specialize in. But it occurred to me that as a consultant, I could do the things that I really, really love all of the time, and bring that help and support to a lot of different companies. And that’s just really intriguing to me. SWB: Okay, first of all, I want a Deepa. [Laughter] KL: Yes. SWB: So, Deepa Subramaniam is Lara’s business partner, and they founded this company called Wherewithall, that is doing consulting work on product teams and engineering teams. But most importantly, me and Katel actually had dinner with them a couple of weeks back. And watching them interact with each other and talk about their work, and the way their faces just light up. It’s so great to seem them coming together and creating this thing that they clearly are really passionate about on the work side, but also just as partners. They really make sense and they get one another. I thought that was so great to see. I’ve mostly worked in different kinds of consulting arrangements. Sometimes, me and somebody else will partner up on a project or teach a workshop together, but I’ve never had that kind of long-term, we-are-business-partners thing set up. And I think it goes back to what we said earlier, around how we sometimes have to make our own colleagues. It’s like they’ve literally created a business that allows them to have that kind of collegial relationship. And I think that that’s really powerful and something that’s kind of scary for a lot of us to do—to, you know, make such a firm commitment. But it’s great when it works, right? KL: Yeah, it’s like you wish, you know, and sort of dream about finding your soul mates in your life partner and your best friends. And I feel like it’s becoming a lot more, you know, that this happens with work now, and it’s just really cool. Like, you can work on projects where you’re like, these are the kind of people I want to work with all the time. And then you know what that looks like. JL: Yeah, and I think it’s amazing. But there’s also like, half- and quarter-way points, too, right? So, I think, as you mentioned before, we don’t necessarily traditionally work on the same types of things, but I love both of you, so having chances to work with you is great. And I just remember, like Sara and I, when we were both doing a lot of public speaking, we would go out to happy hour or we would go out to dinner and we would just talk about public speaking things. And even though Sara and I would be talking about completely different things, the business of public speaking was something that we could both talk to and learn from each other. And talk about how we were doing things, how we were organizing, how we were charging. How we were going to do logistics of things—and having someone I could talk to about that was, like, totally priceless for me. [40:00] SWB: Yes! You know, I think that there’s a lot of pressure in culture at large and definitely within the tech industry, to kind of not talk about some of this stuff. For example, don’t talk about how much you charge for things and how much you make off of things. And I know that that can be a touchy and sensitive discussion but I really think that only benefits the people who have the most power. And that’s so problematic. That tends to disproportionately affect women and it tends to disproportionately affect people of color, and particularly disproportionately affects people who are women of color. And so I’m really a big proponent of having as many open and honest conversations about topics like compensation as possible. Because I really think that the fact that we haven’t had enough of those is part of the reason that we hear things like Becca’s statement earlier on, where she talked about the AIGA survey. Which is a designer’s survey showing that women at her level were making $20,000 less than men. It’s certainly not the only reason, but part of the reason that continues to go on unchecked, is because we’re encouraged not to talk about it. So I’m gonna fuckin’ talk about it. JL: Yeah, I wrote a post in, I don’t know, 2015? 2014?—“A Formula for Charging Speaker Fees”—and it’s about… SWB: Oh yeah! KL: It was great! JL: And it’s still, I mean, it’s probably the most visited blog post on the Nerdery. And I mean, that site hasn’t been updated in over a year, but we still get traffic from that post especially. People looking for how to charge, how do I put numbers around something, and so I was thrilled that people are still finding value in that. Because, for me, it was really valuable to talk about it. SWB: So that’s the kind of thing, I think, if you feel sort of isolated—and it’s not just about money, really—but if you feel isolated in your field, or if you feel like you don’t know who you can trust, then you can never really get to a place where you have the confidence to then have that conversation with the people the really matter. KL: Or if you’re just starting out. SWB: Totally. KL: That’s a whole group of people who—like, I wouldn’t even know where to start if I was doing it for the first time and I just had no idea. If I had no idea what to base it off of. So if I found a resource that was helpful like that, it would be so valuable. SWB: Yeah and I think, you know, especially since things like money conversations—it’s like if you try to have one and you’re not that confident about it and you don’t really have any context. If you get pushback, it’s really easy to believe that you’re getting pushback because you were asking for too much. And you don’t have a frame of reference. So, anyway, I think building those relationships to give you more context and get more insight and feedback and, just like you have someone to bounce everything off of—it’s so valuable. I’m really happy to hear people like Deepa and Lara are teaming up because I think that the more of these kinds of powerful relationships between people that exist out there, the stronger any industry is going to be. JL: Completely, yeah. I think that finding advocates in your peers and finding that partnership is so important and valuable. SWB: A lot of the folks we talked to—they were kind of moving from working at a company to starting their own thing. Or otherwise kind of shifting gears in that more consultative way. Jenn, you went from consulting to going back in-house and then you had a baby, so you had kind of different sort of year with a lot of new stuff. But I’m curious: what did that look like for you and what made that work for you at this moment in your life? JL: You bring up a good point, Sara. I think a lot of times, we often say like, “oh i’m starting something new,” and it’s always about quitting your job. And I did that, as I mentioned before. SWB: Quitting your job can be great, let’s not lie about that. But it’s not always great. And it’s not always what you want. JL: And it was what I wanted for a really long time. And I think one of the hardest things for me, because of the vision that comes along with that—the freedom, the working from home, the yoga pants, the ability to do anything you want, essentially, is awesome. And then for me to recognize, you know, what was also awesome, was going back to a full time job. I started consulting for Anthropologie and I worked onsite a couple days a week and I was really enjoying it. I enjoyed the work I was doing, I enjoyed being in-house again, and I really enjoyed working on product as opposed—it was a different change from agency life. And I thought that that was such a nice change—and there was part of me that was really hesitant to go back full time. And, they’d offered the full time work, I still wasn’t sure, and I think part of it was just because I thought what I was supposed to do, was stay consulting. You know, I’d already quit my job—why would I ever go back!? [45:00] And then, I realized for me, that the full time job gave me a lot of stability, in that, in order to try new things such as: BABY. [Laughter] JL: For me, I always like to have at least one or two maybe, super stable things in my life when I try something new. When I first quit my job, I had a very stable relationship—now with my husband, also stable friendships, a lot of stable colleagues, that were really allowing me to try something new. Now I had again, this stability, that was like, ok, I feel pretty great—maybe I’ll go and try this new-fangled baby thing that I hear people talk about. And it was really great to have the support of the people that I work with, also, at the time, figuring out things like maternity leave, figuring out how to make the balance before I went on maternity leave. And so, going back for me, was like a little bit of a hard move but something that I knew was right for me at the time. And something that I really wanted to see through. Will I be full-time forever, I’m not sure! But for right now, I’m enjoying a lot about it. SWB: Yeah, I think that when people start a business or move to doing consulting or something like that, that’s often this sense of like, if they ever change course from that, I think it gets perceived—or there’s a fear that it’ll be perceived—as failure in some way. Or like taking a step backwards. And of course, life’s not really like that, right? There are times when something makes a lot of sense and times when it doesn’t. And I think that’s part of the thing I’m really interested in exploring more in this show. How do we figure out the next steps that are right for us, that allow us to continue to grow. And to try not to buy into some of those bullshit stories about what it means to be successful. For example, none of us have a goal of being tech company founders who go out and get a bunch of venture capital so that we can be the next unicorn company worth a billion dollars. I mean, I guess having a billion dollars sounds—no, I’m sorry, having a billion dollars actually sounds awful. It sounds truly terrible. Because I look at the people who are making that their kind of dream they’re chasing—and I think, would I be happier? I don’t think so. Would I be creating a better world? Probably not. What is really the draw of that except for the idea that it’s what a picture of what success looks like. And I think what I’m hoping we can do here is really talk about of different types of success. JL: Yeah, it’s like, when is the right time for you to do these options that we have. And you know, we’re so lucky that we have options, especially in the tech field where you have a lot of abilities to work agency, to work product, to go consulting. Lots of different options. So I think it’s as you said, not a one size fits all and not always a one size fits all for this time frame forever. SWB: So I know that having a baby was a big new thing, but I also know something that you told me when you were still kind of getting embedded in that job was that it was—and I think you mentioned it a little. You said it was a chance to work on product, which you hadn’t done before. And it you were telling me a lot about some of the challenges of working at scale at this big e-commerce company and all this stuff that was a little bit new. And I’m curious, do you feel like—not only did you create this stability for your but have you also been growing professionally in this new job? JL: Yeah, sure. I think one of the things that was really neat, as you mentioned—working not only at CSS architecture at scale, but also taking on management responsibilities. So consulting, I managed myself, and sometimes some other members of teams. But generally now I’m in a position where I have direct reports. I’m working more in the engineering team and helping people with their career paths again, is really interesting to me and definitely a new challenge. Managing is hard. SWB: People! You know? KL: People are wonderful, and hard, and wonderful, and hard. JL: Exactly. So it’s rewarding in a whole new way and challenging in a whole new way. I haven’t managed since before I was consulting, so it was fun to take that on again. But also just something completely new—it’s nice to see that at this point in my career, these different kind of challenges. But that said, focusing a lot on both the management and the architecture also sort of left this gap where I wasn’t doing as many of the things I was doing before with side projects. So trying to figure out—it’s again, facing this sort of similar thing as I had before, where I’m not burnt out on what I’m doing—there’s just something I love and I miss doing that also. So how do I also get this thing that I love in my life somehow. But not at the same scale as before. Because like I mentioned, it’s that balance. And it all comes down to scale again. Where, I don’t want to quit and got consulting and go travel all over the place again all of the time because I want to be home with some level of stability. But I want new projects also, so talking to both of you was really neat because then the idea of starting something new with this podcast came up. And this, for me, is so exciting, because it acts as an outlet to do a lot of things I loved doing in side projects while still maintaining a lot of this new stability that I found in my life. Fuck Yeah of the Week [50:15] SWB: You know when your friend gets an awesome new job, or publishes an amazing article, or finally pays off their student loans, and you’re so excited that you keep texting them in just like all caps and the fire emoji over and over again? Well, that’s the next segment here, it’s called the Fuck Yeah of the Week—and it’s where we share the people and the things that we think you all should be celebrating. Think of it as the podcast form of the 100 emoji. So Jenn, who is our very first Fuck Yeah of the Week? JL: Well, Sara, I’m gonna go ahead and say, it’s US! Fuck Yeah, Us! KL: Fuck Yeah, YES! JL: You know, I think sometimes you gotta take those moments and celebrate yourself, and I think we should be celebrating ourselves for getting this thing up and running! Here we are, we’ve talked about this idea, and now we are actually in the room recording it, ladies—we’re doing it! SWB: Yeah! JL: It’s awesome. SWB: You know, earlier we heard from Lara Hogan about her, you know, new business and all of that. But this reminds me so much of something that she started writing about years ago. She has a whole site about this—it’s Lara Hogan’s donut site, I don’t know what it’s called. But basically, what she does, is she celebrates every career achievement with a donut. And she started doing it because she realized that whenever something cool was happening, like she was getting a promotion, or she was accepted to give a talk somewhere, she would go, “ok, great,” and then move on to the next thing. And she wasn’t giving herself permission to celebrate that. So she started saying, “ok, every time something major happens, I’m gettin’ myself a donut.” And she takes a picture of it and she puts it on this website. And I think that that’s wonderful, because every time she has a new donut thing to celebrate, I’m like, “hell yeah, get that donut!” JL: Yeah! SWB: And I love that we’re able to do that for ourselves, too, because, yeah, I think we’re often taught to keep looking forward or don’t let yourself have too much of the limelight. And, I hope that anybody who’s listening to this can kind of give themselves a fuck yeah, too, for the things that they’re accomplishing. KL: Definitely, it’s so exciting to see how far Lara’s Tao of Donuts, essentially, has spread. Because you see other people taking photos, you know, of their donuts that they’ve gotten after speaking for the first time, or you know, doing a big demo. And that’s so cool, because you know it ties back to this thing that she, talked about, and that’s super cool. I hope that we see lots more photos of donuts, or your celebration. JL: Our second fuck yeah are these Olivia Pope wine glasses that we are drinking out of today. The Olivia Pope wine glass has always been, for me, my special donut moment. You know, on that show Scandal, when she drinks, and it just was like, “wow, where do I get a glass to just drown my sorrows or celebrate my joys.” Like, that is the glass that holds everything. They sell them at Crate & Barrel. Crate & Barrel is not one of our sponsors, but they could be. KL: They could be. [Laughter] SWB: Are you listening, Crate & Barrel? JL: But! I love these glasses because I take them out when I need to like, either, like, pause and be like, this is life right now, and this is just my moment to just like, take it all in. Be it good, be it bad. But like, here’s just a moment to pause and be like, “Fuck yeah, I got these glasses, and in this case, I got these friends, and I’ve got this wine, and I’ve got this podcast, so, it’s pretty good.” SWB: You know, if you haven’t seen an Olivia Pope wine glass, first off, it’s going to be in the show notes, but if you Google “Olivia Pope wine glass,” you know exactly—immediately—what we’re talking about. KL: It’ll be on our Instagram. SWB: But what’s really key about the Olivia Pope wine glass, is that it’s got a big glass, but it’s also on this long, really slender stem. It’s like a big-deal wine glass. It’s not just like, “Oh I’m having a quick glass of wine.” It’s very much like, “I am having wine now, period.” And, I like that because it does—it kind of creates that space, right? Like, you were saying, Jenn, it’s not just like that you’re going to pour yourself a quick glass. It’s that you’re pausing and taking a moment and you’re allowing yourself to have that bit of joy. And I think that that’s really important, even though, normally I don’t trust myself to use the Olivia Pope wine glass on the regular, but I want them to exist in the world. JL: That’s why I have six of them. [Laughter] KL: They’re great, because they have presence, yet they’re elegant. SWB: So, just like us? JL: Mhmm. SWB: That’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. No, You Go is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia. Our theme music is by Philly’s own The Diaphone, from a song called Maths. In this episode, you heard Becca Gurney, Jenn Schiffer, Mina Markham and Lara Hogan. We’ll be back next week with Episode 2. [55:00] KL: Until then, we leave you with this advice from Sam Kapila, a designer and educator who’s always up to something new: SAM KAPILA: I know it’s time to start something new when I’m a little bit scared….the good sort of scared that inspires me to want to explore something new in a project, or in a job, or scared in a way that you might surprise yourself. It’s also important to start something new when you can’t stop thinking about a certain idea, and it keeps you up at night. It’s in your 3am journal on your bedside, and it’s something that you just can’t wait to start doing and be really proud of. And I think, any time you can be proud of something you are doing, that’s definitely time to start something new.

This is the last week to submit a talk to Codeland, our annual tech conference, so we wanted to give you some insight on what makes a good talk, a good speaker, and a good proposal. You'll hear from Lara Hogan, who literally wrote the book on public speaking, and Kelsey Hightower, speaker and chair of many tech conferences. They share their personal speaking stories (and nightmares!), how they prepare their talks, and the common mistakes they see first-time speakers make. Show Links Digital Ocean (sponsor) MongoDB (sponsor) Heroku (sponsor) TwilioQuest (sponsor) Demystifying Public Speaking (code: NEWBIE for 10% off) OSCON Codeland CFP (submit by Nov 26) Codeland Conf Codeland 2019

Hey, everyone! This is Jag Talon and you’re listening to Friends Talk Frontend. Today we interview Lara Hogan who is the VP of engineering at Kickstarter and the author of three books: Designing for Performance, Building a device lab, and Demystifying Public Speaking. The importance of donuts Peter Pan Donuts Federal Donuts Val Head (I also have an episode with her!) Designing for Performance Designing for Performance presentation + necklace Codenewbies podcast: Why is my website slow Building a device lab Demystifying public speaking Tufted coquette Tracking compensation and promotion inequity Measuring progress Open Source Survey

You've got an amazing website. It's beautiful, functional, but it takes forever to load. What do you do? Where do you even begin to debug that? Lara Hogan, VP of Engineering at Kickstarter and author of the book, Designing for Performance, breaks down common web performance issues, tools you can use to diagnose the problem, and how to use AB testing to measure your results. We also have another episode of the Coding Corner, where we unpack three common mistakes newbies make when trying to speed things up! Show Links Digital Ocean (sponsor) MongoDB (sponsor) Heroku (sponsor) TwilioQuest (sponsor) Which Test Won New Relic PageSpeed Insights My Fonts Font Squirrel Font Face Generator Web Page Test Skylight ImageOptim Designing for Performance (Lara's book) Codeland Conf Codeland 2019

As if preparing and delivering a presentation to your peers isn’t nerve-wracking enough… you also have to worry about the Q&A period at the end of your talk!   You’re worried about people asking not one but TWO questions! Having to decipher those questions that are really just comments. Then there is THE dreaded question: the question you don’t know the answer to.   You don’t want to appear stupid in front of your audience!   Truth is that the Q&A period can leave many first-time public speakers feeling like they need to know everything before they give a talk!   But you don’t, and we’re going to debunk this myth and more in today’s Build Tip.   I’m joined by Lara Hogan who is the VP of Engineering at Kickstarter and Author of Demystifying Public Speaking. Together we’ll be sharing a number of strategies to help you get ready for ANY question you receive during your next Q&A session after a presentation or team meeting. You’ll also learn some techniques to calm your nerves, engage your audience, and keep them wanting more! -- Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer and Pivotal Tracker. San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA. -- Episode Transcript Poornima:  Whether you're new to public speaking or you've been doing it for a very long time, there's gonna come a point at the end of your talk, and right before that Q&A, where your nerves are gonna flare up.                                 You're gonna be thinking, "What questions are people asking?" Or, "How do you respond to a question that you don't know the answer to?"                                 Well in today's *Build* Tip, I'm gonna cover answers to these questions and more. Welcome to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker. I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. And today I'm joined by Lara Hogan, who is the author of *Demystifying Public Speaking*, and a lover of donuts.   Lara: Absolutely.   Poornima: Yeah. So Lara, you and I have given a lot of technical talks through our careers, and gotten to this point where maybe we're not as nervous giving the talk. But at the end, there's that Q&A period. Right?   Lara: Right.   Poornima: Where we can't anticipate all the questions. Those wonderful two-parters. People who do comments instead of questions.   Lara: Absolutely.   Poornima: Or you just don't know what the answer's gonna be.   Lara: Totally.   Poornima: So, let's kinda walk through each of these. Let’s start with the first where you just don't have a sense of what the questions are gonna be.   Lara: Yeah.   How To Prepare For A Q&A Session   Poornima: Do you have a technique that you use?   Lara: Absolutely. So I like to just in general have a feedback crew of three to five people. And hopefully they're people who you know well enough to make sure they're gonna give you good critical feedback.   Poornima: Yeah.   Lara: 'Cause it's not worth it to just get feedback from people who you're not sure are gonna help you actually get better.                                 So at the end of your practice run, maybe with that feedback crew, maybe they've helped give you some feedback about your body language, about your words that you used, etc. Ask them to help you do a practice Q&A.   Poornima: OK.   Lara: Yeah.   Poornima: That's great.   Lara: I love to make sure I have a mix of people, maybe people who are new to the topic, maybe people who are really familiar with it, or know the audience really well.   Poornima: Mm-hmm.   Lara: 'Cause they can help you level up your game, and get some practice to reduce those nerves.   Poornima: Yeah.   Lara: That when you're finally on stage you're like, "I've done this before."   Poornima: Sure. And do you feel like the questions that they ask are usually indicative of what the audience is gonna ask?   Lara: I try to ask for two different kinds of questions. One's just like a stereotypical, “If you were in the audience for real, what might you ask”?   Poornima: Yeah.   Lara: But if they're your friends, they're gonna be nice, normal questions.   Poornima: Right.   Lara: I also like to add a version two, which is like, “Let's get weird.”   Poornima: Yeah.   Lara: Give me that statement that's not actually a question. Or like totally intentionally misunderstand the point that I'm trying to make, and ask me that question.   Poornima: Mm-hmm.   Lara: That way I have some practice in knowing how to handle those really sticky moments.   Poornima: So doing this in a practice session and dealing with peers, you're probably gonna feel pretty good.   Lara: Yeah.   How To Respond To A Question That Is Really Just A Comment   Poornima: But what do you do in that moment where you may get that comment that's a question? How do you respond?   Lara: Totally. I think it depends on the situation. I want to remind everybody, your audience is rooting for you. Whenever you get that, "This is more of a statement than a question." I promise it's not just you feeling the weirdness of that, it's the whole of the audience, too. And you're still in a position of power. You still have control over the room.   Poornima: Mm-hmm.   Lara: And your whole goal is to teach people something new. And make sure that they are leveling them up in whatever the topic is that you're talking about.                                 You have completely, a complete opportunity to be like, "Thanks for that. Here is how I would either reframe it, turn it into a better question, or answer the question, that you think you really wanted." Provide the information to the audience, too.   Poornima: Mm-hmm.   Lara: Yeah.   What To Do If You Get Asked A Question From Someone Who Is Online   Poornima: That's good. Now I also know a lot of times there are questions that come up where the audience isn't present, they might come up from audio, video, somebody might have written one in, Twitter, whatever. How do you facilitate those kind of questions?   Lara: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think—I hope—it helps to have a good moderator.   Poornima: Uh-huh.   Lara: To make sure that someone can actually help you navigate especially as multiple different sources of information giving you those questions.   Poornima: Yep.   Lara: But by and large, I just try to scan them, and kind of see which ones are the most relevant to my topic.   Poornima: Yeah.   Lara: Or which ones are gonna help me give an answer that will actually level up the entire audience who's listening in.   Poornima: Nice. I like what you said. So you're gonna filtering, but in a way that's gonna benefit the audience.   Lara: Yeah.   Poornima: Not just filtering for the sake of filtering.   Lara: Absolutely. Yeah.   What To  Do When You Don’t Know The Answer To A Question   Poornima: So let's talk about the last, the dreaded question, that you don't know the answer to.   Lara: Oh, those are my favorite. Yeah.   Poornima: Yeah.   Lara: I found that just in general in my career, not just in conference settings, but as for standing up in front of my team, or my boss.   Poornima: Sure, meetings.   Lara: Yeah. You have to be able to say, "I don't know."   Poornima: Yeah.   Lara: And you can do it gracefully. Just saying, "I don't know," doesn't mean that you're bad at your job. It doesn't mean that you didn't do all the—no one human can possibly know all there is to know about the topic on which you're speaking. So I like to practice also with that feedback crew saying, "I don't know." And in a really graceful and helpful way.   Poornima: Mm-hmm.   Lara: So maybe like "I don't know. I'll follow up later." And like respond on Twitter when I finally do the research on their answer.   Poornima: Yeah.   Lara: I might just be like, "I don't know. That's a great question. Come find me at the break and we can talk more about it." And my absolute favorite one is to be like, "You know, I don't know the answer to that question, but does anybody else in the audience know the answer to that question could you raise your hand? You should go talk to that person."   Poornima: Yeah. That's great.   Lara: Just totally punt on it.   Poornima: Yeah. No, that's fair. Awesome. Well thank you so much, Lara, for joining us.   Lara: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.   Poornima: Yeah. And thanks all of you for tuning in today. And special thanks to our sponsor, Pivotal Tracker, for their help in producing this episode.                                 If you've enjoyed this episode, then please subscribe to our YouTube channel. And if you have friends out there who are nervous about Q&A, be sure to share this episode with them. Bye for now.   Lara: Thanks so much.   This episode of *Build* is brought to you by our sponsor, Pivotal Tracker.

Public speaking is not just about getting on stage and giving a tech talk. It's also about communicating effectively in team meetings. Lara Hogan, VP of Engineering at Kickstarter presents a path to improving public speaking, especially for people in the tech field. We also talked about engineering teams and leadership and her latest book Demystifying Public Speaking.

Lara Hogan is an engineering director at Etsy and the author of Designing for Performance and the coauthor of Building a Device Lab. Her latest book, Demystifying Public Speaking, tackles every step involved in taking the podium and delivering the killer presentation.

Lara Hogan is an engineering director at Etsy and the author of Designing for Performance and the coauthor of Building a Device Lab. Her latest book, Demystifying Public Speaking, tackles every step involved in taking the podium and delivering the killer presentation.

Lara Hogan is an engineering director at Etsy and the author of *Designing for Performance* and the coauthor of *Building a Device Lab*. Her latest book, *Demystifying Public Speaking*, tackles every step involved in taking the podium and delivering the killer presentation.

“I saw a study that said speaking in front of a crowd is considered the number one fear of the average person. I found that amazing. Number two, was death. Death is number two? This means, to the average person, if you have to be at a funeral, you would rather be in the casket […]

Demystifying public speaking: this week Paul and Rich talk to Lara Hogan, an engineering director at Etsy whose most recent book, Demystifying Public Speaking, aims to help get more diverse voices onstage in the tech world. Topics covered include overcoming specific fears before getting onstage, how to process feedback, and some of her own experiences onstage, from highlights on down to one particular public-speaking horror show. They also discuss her career at Etsy and the joys and challenges of management.

In this episode, Dave and Jamison answer these questions: How do I deal with engineers who are skilled technically but rude and demeaning? What should I talk about in one on ones with my manager or reports? We also cite Questions for our first 1:1, a blog post by Lara Hogan.

Lara Hogan, Director of Engineering at Etsy, talks to Intercom's Geoffrey Keating about managing with empathy, tech's diversity problem, and her new book, Demystifying Public Speaking.

Lara Hogan's first public speaking experience was horrifying to say the least. Not only did she live to tell about it, she also continued speaking and has become an authority on the subject. Besides presenting on stage, Lara is also the author of the new book, Demystifying Public Speaking and an Engineering Director at Etsy. In this episode, Lara shares why being an actual human helps you to be a better leader, how to create a conversational tone while also being rehearsed, how to use notes effectively in your speech, why it’s important to know what you’re actually afraid of when it comes to public speaking (and what to do about it), how to feel like a superhero on stage by wearing the right clothing, how to get started as a speaker if you are not the typical expert/guru, why you should challenge yourself to say “I don’t know” five times a day, and so much more. You'll also find out why donuts should be part of your regular celebrations. Get Lara’s book at www.ABookApart.com and find out more about Lara at Larahogan.me.

This week, we have a brief discussion about how third party ad networks affect performance on news sites before talking with Sophie Shepherd. Sophie is a Senior Designer at Ushahidi, a non-profit software company that develops free and open-source products for information collection, visualization, and interactive mapping. We discussed the challenges of designing for international users with minimal data speed, how Ushahidi brings data and information to regions with nearly no connection, designing with task completion in mind, and more. ##Show Links: Sophie Shepherd Follow Sophie on Twitter Ushahidi Lara Hogan - A List Apart - Showing Performance Global Mobile Book Eric Meyer Crisis Design Rust Belt Refresh ##Transcript Katie: Welcome. You're listening to Episode 8 of The Path to Performance, the podcast dedicated to everyone to make the web faster. I am your host, Katie Kovalcin. Tim: And I'm your other host, Tim Kadlec and yeah, you nailed it; this is Episode 8. Well done! Katie: I was like, oh yeah, I totally know which episode it is. Wait: no, I don't. This is Episode 8. Tim: I mean, it's understandable; the numbers are getting higher, it's getting harder and harder. Katie: Totally out of control it's on more than one hand now! Tim: Yeah, once you've thrown that second hand, things get really complicated. It gets worse when you have to start taking off the socks and using your toes as well! That's where I always get hung up! Katie: You can wear flip-flops and then you don't have to worry about it. Tim: True, true. Katie: How are you, Tim? Tim: I'm doing OK; I'm actually wearing flip-flops right now! Yeah, I am! Katie: It's warm in Wisconsin? Tim: It is warm, for once. Yeah, I'm doing good; enjoying my day. And you? Katie: I'm good as well. The sun is shining here, which is a very rare thing in Ohio this summer and I feel like I have been whining about it for so long but today, I'm not whining. Tim: That's good! That's good! I'm guessing, we could maybe one of these times maybe we'll have an episode where we just kind of whine all the way through, but otherwise I think people probably enjoy the non-whining better. Katie: We can just have a bummer episode! Tim: Yeah, just a downer of an episode where we just air all our grievances about everything… Katie: We just talk in emo voice, just like…mwww…yeah, the web does actually kinda suuuuck… Tim: Yeah, exactly! I think this goes over well, I think this is maybe like a special Christmas edition. Katie: That is a really good idea. Tim: Right in time for the holidays. Katie: Christmas Bummer Episode! Tim: This is brilliant. That has to happen; I'm writing this down. Anyway, but glad to hear you're doing good now on this totally not Christmas at all episode. That's good. Katie: Yeah, on this summer-sunshine flip-flop fun-time episode! Tim: Yay! Katie: So, on the note of cool things, there's this episode from the Washington Post where in kind of a similar fashion, I know we talked a couple of months ago about Vox sort of declaring performance bankruptcy, Washington Post kinda did the same thing and talked about in an article the other day and that was pretty cool. They mentioned it sort of being in response to the instant articles and talking about just ads on news sites generally kind of sucky for performance, but I really liked this quite that it ended on that we have very little control over ads that load late or slowly but we wanted to make the core use experience as solid as possible because that is what we have control over and that's kind of a cool way to think about performance, just focusing on making good the core part that you do have control over. Tim: Yeah, and I think that's just generally awesome advice for anybody, because the ad work stuff comes up a lot and you have very little control over those third party ad networks and unfortunately a lot of them are super-slow right now but also essential for business but I like that they made the clear distinction between their core experience and understanding that the ads is just something you're going to have to tack on afterwards but mitigate the issues as much as possible. I think that's just really solid advice for any publisher. Katie: Yeah, absolutely. It's a nice article, it's a quick read; I recommend giving that a little skim or browse. Tim: Definitely. And then of course, Lara Hogan, who has made a habit out of writing good things over and over and over again or providing good performance advice in general, she wrote a post for A List Apart about showing performance; basically getting into some of the things she talked about way back in Episode 1 with us and also in her book about the importance of making performance visual: going into the dashboards and things like that, that they have up at Etsy and making sure that people can actually see the difference in performance. Katie: Yeah, she tweeted a little quick video a while ago and it might actually be in that article, I haven't had a chance to read it yet; it's on my to-do list but she posted a video of their video systems and it's really cool, it's really awesome to see that. Did I tell you that Lara, she talks about donuts all the time and donuts being her reward for good performance, achievements, good things like that, and when I saw Lara in New York a couple weeks ago, she took me to The Donut Spot that's in her neighborhood and I was so excited! Tim: Yeah, you told me. She's never taken me to The Donut Spot. I'm a little disappointed. I'm excited for you though: that sounds really cool. That's kind of… Katie: You know what? It was a really good donut because she says she's not a fan of the hipster donuts with a bunch of stupid toppings like cereal and candy bars and crap. Tim: Like the voodoo donuts thing in Portland? Katie: Yeah. These are just some straight-up home-town donuts in Brooklyn; I guess not really home-town but they were good! Tim: That's good. This is just like plain glazed? I want to know how far down the rabbit hole you went. Katie: We got banana…no, not banana: they were like custard-filled ones with the chocolate icing. I'm not a donut expert but those good ones! Tim: Gotcha, OK. That's a safe choice. Katie: Not the white sugary whipped cream-filled, the kind of yellowy-custard cream-filled ones; those are good ones. I don't know the distinction: is one cream and one custard? Is one icing and one cream? I don't know. Tim: I think it's usually like an icing and cream thing. Depending on where you go, it's almost like pure frosting is what it tastes like you're eating… Katie: Yeah, like you bite in and you're just like, oh my… Tim: Yeah, it's like there's frosting on the outside of the donut and frosting shoved down the inside as well and you just feel the cavities forming as you're eating them. It's great. It's a really good experience. But that's good. No, I did not…you did tell me this and that's very awesome, very cool. It's kinda like… Katie: Sorry; I'm obviously still thinking about that. Tim: I don't blame you. Katie: It was an experience. But, back to today's episode! We are talking to Sophie Shepherd and the big reason we wanted to get Sophie on here is not only because she's an awesome designer but because she has experience with working on products that are primarily used in developing countries that typically have the less than ideal device scenarios that we kind of always talk about in theory but she has some really great insight on talking a bout it in practice and actually designing for those devices and scenarios so it's going to be really interesting. Tim: Yeah, it'll be a nice fresh take, a different perspective than we usually get. Very cool. Katie: Cool. Well, let's go hear from Sophie. Katie: And we're back with Sophie Shepherd from Ushahidi. Sophie; can you tell us a little bit about Ushahidi and what exactly that is? Sophie: Sure. So, the what exactly it is, it's a Swahili word that means "Testimony". A lot of people are like, "Usha-what?" so it's not English so don't feel bad if you can't say it. And the company was founded in 2008 in Kenya so in 2008 what was happening in Kenya. there was an election that was fairly corrupt and there was quite a bit of violence broke out and some bloggers who were in Kenya and living in Kenya realized that they needed to do something to help out as well as just writing about what was happening, so they made a product in which people could submit reports of different places where the election was happening, different polling stations and this way they could say, there's been violence here, someone was killed here or this is a safe place where you can go to vote, or there's fraud happening. And what Ushahidi does is it takes all of these different reports and collects them into one place and provides a list and a map for them. So that's how it was founded; it's now a number of products but the name of our main platform is still Ushahidi and the purpose of it is still too collect data, crowd-source data. It's oftentimes gets mapped but isn't necessarily, we're re-doing the platform right now so that it's not only map data; it can really be anything that users submit. Katie: Awesome. So, spoiler alert, I know Sophie really well so I know the details of what she does and what really struck me and why I wanted to get her on the podcast so bad is because you deal a lot with users that are in places that have really poor connectivity and the products that you're designing are really crucial information that they need to get to. Can you talk a little bit about all of that and the challenges that you face when designing for that? Sophie: Sure. So, I think something that's really interesting is that it's not only poor connectivity but the kind of contexts in which people are using our products are unique. Not exclusively, but oftentimes they're used in crisis situations, so people don't have a whole lot of time. A lot of the time, the power could be down or internet could be down, so it's not only we have to think about connectivity but also ways that people are submitting information. This has been the first project I've worked on where it's not just, when we talk about performance, it's not just people needing to load something fast but it's about access and accessibility so, built into our product is people can anonymously text stuff in and that'll become a part of our system so it's really thinking about this whole ecosystem of access and ways of submitting information rather than just a website. Katie: Can you talk a little bit about what that means exactly, more than just a website? How else are you working around those connectivity and accessibility issues? Sophie: Yes, well, Ushahidi as a whole, not only with our platform but we have a lot of other companies that have spun out from the product itself, so there's a company Brick which is really, really awesome. It was founded by someone who was also a founder in Ushahidi and they make wifi devices that are super-rugged; they work off 3G connections so you can take those anywhere. We were in Kenya and they have all these attachments so it can be solar-powered wifi, so we had a group meeting in Kenya and we were all accessing the internet in the middle of nowhere on a beach from this device we had. So, it's thinking more about getting people information. Similarly we do a lot with SMS so if someone only has a phone they can text in a report or receive a response saying, OK, this has been confirmed, through their phone. Tim: This is fascinating stuff. I always think it's very interesting to hear the perspective outside of what we're used to in the little bubble that we get to live in here in the United States tech industry. This is taking everything in terms of the importance of building something that is going to work on different devices and the importance of building something that's going to perform well and this is really scaling up the importance of doing that, the vitality of doing that from just business metrics to, like you're saying, people's lives at stake in some of these cases. I'm curious; you mentioned being in Kenya and using those devices to get access. You can't obviously develop all the time in Kenya, so how are you finding ways to get that experience here, when you're building stuff from the United States so that you're feeling what it's going to be like on those, a 2G or a 3G connection or whatever it happens to be? Sophie: It's definitely a challenge for me because not only am I working every day on a really good connection but I've never really not had that; maybe five years ago my connection was not as good as it was now but I think I've always been as far as connection speeds in the one per cent, but we have a really great user advocacy team at Ushahidi so this is not only thinking about performance and website metrics, but we have a whole team that is dedicated to making sure that our users are satisfied, listening to what their needs are and responding in that way and also helping them, because this is a product that then gets extended and they can download it and set up their own deployments to use the product so we have a team that works really closely with people who are actually using it, which is terrific because we get a lot of feedback through that. Tim: I was going to say, are some of the team members in Kenya? Sophie: Uh-huh. Yeah, we have one person in Kenya, one person in Canada and then we have as part of, we have a specific user testing wing that's in Kenya but what they do is, since they are so in touch with people who use this stuff all over the world, they're good at being able to not only test it in Kenya but test it elsewhere and talk to…we have a large group using this stuff in Nepal right now because of the earthquake so they're in touch with them, checking that everything's working OK, getting any feedback from them. Katie: Do you tend to look at what specific devices the majority of users in these areas are using and start building and testing there or how does that work out? What's the size of an iPhone, that tends to be our default? What devices are you really thinking about in those areas? Sophie: It's interesting because right now, we are in the midst of re-building this product and so a lot of the people out there who are using it right now are using Version 2 which is the older version and at this point I don't even know how many years old it is but it's fairly outdated. It still works really well but it's not responsive; it's hard, we've noticed that quite a lot of people are using it on a desktop but that's only because it doesn't work very well on a phone so it'll be really interesting, we're launching the new one which is fully responsive and a lot more modern in this way to see how people end up using it. But it's tough because we can't say, iPhone users use this because it's used really everywhere in the world so maybe if it's used in the US it is going to be on an iPhone more, whereas elsewhere, it's Android but we try to cast a really wide net so there's an Android app that will be used for collecting information, you can submit by SMS. The new version's going to be totally responsive so what we try to do is not really focus on one but make sure that everyone can use it. Katie: So, you've been working on a responsive re-design and everything we've talked about has been the poor connectivity and all of that. How has performance played into those decisions when building this site or the product again for this new version? Sophie: It's a continuous consideration and process of checks and balances. One thing is that, thinking about images: part of this new system is we're able to have people submit images as part of their reports so that's something that we still have not quite figured out how we should work with how to then deliver those back to people and also thinking about different JavaScript libraries that we're using. It's a constant balance, so I think we're still figuring it out. We've done quite a bit of user-testing but more UX user-testing but the application itself is not totally done, it hasn't been built yet, so I think that's to come in terms of optimizing how it's going to work exactly. But from the design and front-end, we've definitely been keeping things really light and really the only question that we have is how we're going to treat images. Tim: Is it primarily a matter of using them or not using them or is it a degree of compression in terms of getting them to a point where maybe they're a little pixilated and ugly but they're balanced: the trade-off is that they're going to perform well on those types of networks? What are you battling with, with the images? Sophie: Well, I think basically every single image that is ever going to be on the site is going to be submitted by a user, so we don't know exactly the sizes of images that are going to come in and then at what point we are then going to compress them or shrink them and how we're going to do that and then how they're going to then be delivered back out. Yeah. Tim: So it's getting a system in place for all the user-generated content? Sophie: Exactly, yes. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: So, you talk a lot about style guides and patter libraries and Sophie I know that's how you like to design and work. What is that process looking like? Do you do testing as you go on designs and see how performing it is or how fast it's loading under those different circumstances? Can you just talk a little bit about your design thinking? Sophie: Yeah. What we have been doing is we did all the UX fairly separately, thinking about just user flows and how things were going to be laid out and how things should work and then we did some visual design and then we started combining these by building the pattern library, so we took out patterns from visual design and eventually we've just started building templates and designing in the browser because we have enough of these patterns to build upon and it's been really great; this is the first time that I've worked in this way and what I really love about it is that each of our patterns and components basically stand on their own so it's really easy to look at them and understand exactly where certain weights are coming from. By designing modularly, we can pull those out rather than seeing a page as a whole and not really understand what's causing what. Tim: In a prior episode, we were talking to Jeff Lembeck of Filament Group and he mentioned what he called the "Jank Tank" which is this big box of basically ugly, horrible, slow devices. Considering how wide the net you're spreading, do you have anything similar? Is there a Ushahidi Jank Tank that you guys go to? Sophie: There isn't, but I love that idea. Tim: Yeah, I think we were fans of that too. Sophie: Is it like…what does he mean exactly? Tim: The idea was having… Sophie; …lowest common denominator kind of devices? Time: Yeah, basically grabbing cheap devices or old devices and firing those up: things that are going to be maybe a few years old and are probably going to be a huge challenge to make things feel fluid and work well on those and you have those handy to test them out and see what honestly might be a more typical user would experience than the high end stuff. Sophie: Yeah, we don't have that here in the States; I feel bad calling it a Jank Tank because that's negative-sounding, but in the office in Kenya, they have…they all work in a building and there's quite a few tech companies that work in there and they have something like a Mobile Device Lab and I think it was sponsored by a mobile company there but I was there earlier in the year and it kind of blew my mind; I put a picture of it on Twitter that we can refer to in the Speaker Notes. But that was all of these phones that were phones that I hadn't even necessarily seen, that they don't sell in the States, and they're all used for testing so at some point probably now that I'm talking about it, I'm realizing we should do it sooner rather than later, they have a whole testing lab there that we can test this product on. Tim: Nice. A mobile device lab does admittedly sound a little bit more ??? serious. Katie: Everything that you're saying sounds like, just tying in that accessibility and performance are going hand in hand and it sounds like you've just learned a great deal of empathy in your time there. Is that true and has that influenced your design? Sophie: Yeah, definitely. I think something that has really changed in my mind is thinking about when doing the design, what actions are people going to want to take, so I think that goes with performance too: if we can only load this one button that says "submit a report" and skip all of the images then that's the most important thing, so, really thinking about where to guide people and what the most important and crucial actions are before loading and everything else, so as a designer that's been definitely something that, previously I was doing client work and it was like we had this long list of requirements that we had to fit in and now it's kind of re-assessing and re-prioritizing what requirements actually are and having different levels of this is the one thing they need to really use this app and then here's all of this other helpful stuff that could be called crucial but isn't actually life or death crucial. Katie: That's really interesting. Do you think that there's any way that, for those of us still working on client projects, to have those conversations with the client to try to be like, "no, really, but the marketing video isn't truly required"; exercises in priority and stuff: do you have any tips for paring down those requirements? Sophie: I think it's tough if your talking to a marketing person because they'd be like, "no, literally I'm going to die if I don't get this on there." Katie: And you're like, "no, literally, people are on our products like…" Sophie: Yeah. I think any time it's easier to say, "does this go above this in the priority list" people are willing to answer that question rather than either or. So, in general, communicating and deciding things I would recommend ordering rather than choosing people to sacrifice things. Tim: And it seems like that's clarified too in, I would guess one of the reasons why it works so well where you are is because that task, if you're looking at what the most important thing for the user to do is, it's so very clear and so very critical whereas on maybe on a more traditional thing where you're working with marketers or whatever, they may not have as clear a sense of, what is the ultimate purpose of this site? And then it becomes a lot harder to do the prioritization without that. Sophie: Yeah; it's funny because we're in the process right now of re-designing the company site as well as re-designing the product itself and it shouldn't be, because there's no life or death, but it's so much more complicated to prioritize stuff on the company site because there's so many different types of audiences and services that it needs to provide whereas on the app itself, it's pretty clear to say, what's the most important action for someone to take. Tim: Within the new site, do you still have to take into consideration a lot of the same sort of constraints in terms of the different devices and connectivity because that's who your audience is that you're marketing to, or are you marketing to a different group through the site? Sophie: Yeah, the site will be, well that's up for debate; that's I think what we're still trying to figure out. I think by default it's a good idea to not ever say, "oh well only people in the States with nice phones are going to look at this" just because that's a dangerous attitude to have, but it's possibly less of priority for the site itself. Tim: So, going back to prioritizing performance within the actual apps and stuff that you're doing: did you have set targets that you were looking at when you were working V3 of this? Were there hard-set goals; we are not going to go over this amount of weight or we are not going to take longer than this for the map of data to appear or anything like that? Sophie: Yeah, so we set a performance budget and we've set a few of them; we set one for the front-end so what we've done is build this pattern library and we have all of our, we're calling them "weight-outs" which are basically our different views within the app itself. So we had an initial goal for that, that we've met and then we set a separate one for the build itself and that's still in process, so hopefully we can get around that target. I like this too because instead of having one end-goal we can really check as we go. Tim: Yeah, it's nice to have it broken down like that. Can we ask what the targets are, just out of curiosity? Sophie: I can look them up but I don't know them right now. Tim: That's fine. Just curious. Was it in terms of the weight or is it a different sort of, more like an experience-focused metric or anything like that, that you're targeting? Sophie: Yeah, we did a weight and a load time. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: It sounds like you've worked in some of the perceived performance thinking too when you're saying, what's the critical information to load first. Sophie: Yeah, for me as a designer, that's definitely something that I can relate to more and I think in some ways it's possibly more important. I think they work as a team but… Tim: I think it is. And I think that's…I think or I hope that that's what, within the performance community, the people who really that's what they do focus on, I think that that's where everything is starting to, we're starting to wake up to that and certainly to shift towards understanding that it really is about the experience and making sure that the critical things are coming in, whatever the top task, whatever the most important features are on the page or coming in and measuring those sorts of things, instead of this blind race to the finish that we've kind of had in the past. Sophie: Yeah. I'm curious to see how that thinking changes because I love the idea of a performance budget but I think sometimes it can be a little limiting and you wouldn't want to sacrifice certain things just to fit into the performance budget. Not limiting, but I think it's very concrete whereas it should be a fairly fluid depending on context of the site itself. Tim: Sure, yeah, it doesn't dictate what goes on; it's another consideration or it's part of another piece in the puzzle. Sophie: Right. At the same time, it's the easiest way to communicate goals. Tim: True. It's hard to without it having a hard set thing, it's very hard, yeah. Sophie: Yeah, until you have the design done, you can't say, OK, our goal is that this is going to load and then this is going to load this much later. It helps to have a number that everyone can refer back to. Katie: So, when you say for everyone to communicate, who is that? Is that between you and the developers? Is this something that your leadership is really that's close to their heart as well? Sophie: Yeah, I think when I said that it was more coming from my experience with client work, where you're using this number as a kind of tactic to force a client to decide on certain things. For us, since we're all working internally, I think definitely any…basically, everyone wants to see it be as fast as it possibly can, so we're all working towards the same thing. Katie: Is there ever a push-back to even like, "OK, now that we've hit that, let's try another goal that's even faster"? Sophie: Not yet, because we haven't launched it, but I wouldn't be surprised if we launch it and get certain feedback that it wasn't loading or it wasn't working quite right on something. I'm really curious to see once it's out there and people are using it, how people respond. Katie: Yeah, I'm really curious to see what metrics you find out from that. Tim: Did you make a distinction…there's the cutting the mustard approach that the BBC popularized which is the core experience goes to maybe older, less capable browsers/devices and the enhanced experience goes to everybody else. One of the things that that fails at, or that doesn't take into consideration which seems like it would be really important for Ushahidi is the situation where you have somebody is on a very nice device but the connectivity is really awful. Did you have to make any distinction between different experiences or do you just have one experience and that experience itself is extremely lightweight, no matter what the scenario is? Was that enough for you to accomplish or you needed to do? Sophie: Yeah, that's funny; we had our company retreat in Kenya so it was I think maybe about half, maybe a little less of our company is in the US so we all went there with our snazzy iPhones and still couldn't connect to anything and it really, I think in terms of empathy, made us realize: oh, wait a second. But in terms of yeah, I think we're just going to try to make it fast for everyone. We don't have a whole lot of enhancements for people on quicker systems yet. Katie: When you were in Kenya, were there any things that were especially awful to try to load, like you're used to just being part of your everyday life? I'm just curious. Sophie: I remember reading Twitter, on the Twitter app and everything loaded except for the pictures and it made you realize just how often people supplement their tweets with pictures; I remember getting really frustrated about it. Katie: That's interesting. Sophie: But I didn't even really try to do a lot of stuff because it really didn't look very well. Same thing on Instagram; it's like sometimes this progressive loading thing; I would rather it not load at all than, oh, I see all of these people posted great pictures that I can't look at. I'd rather not know than… Katie: Or like the tweets having fomo, oh, you had a joke and I can't see the punch-line! Sophie: Exactly! Katie: That's really interesting because when we're just designing here in a bubble it's like, "well I think that would be fine for you to just know that it's there but not see it" but then when you're actually using it, you're like: no, this sucks. Sophie: Yeah, it's like actively frustrating. Tim: How often do you get to Kenya? Sophie: I'm new to the company; I've only been here since the beginning of the year but I think they do a retreat every year but not necessarily always in Kenya; I think every other year it's in Kenya. And I think other people on the team, it depends, we'll do these what we call Hit Team Meetings because everyone is remote and then mini-teams will get together and all work together for a week so those have been all over the place since people live on opposite ends of the world, depending on who's meeting they usually choose a place that is fairly central for everyone to get to. Katie: We'll start to have a list of sites, Sophie, how much is this really crappy, wherever you end up going… Sophie: How long does this take? Katie: Look it up and tell me how much it sucks. Sophie: It is cool to have people on the team everywhere for that reason. Tim: Sure, I bet that gives you a really nice overall picture of a whole bunch of different landscapes from a technical perspective. Sophie: Yeah. Katie: I know, I didn't prepare a list of questions like I should have! Tim: It's all right, I'm actually having a lot of fun just going off the cuff on this, knowing almost nothing. I did a little bit of research and I had heard of Ushahidi from this big fat book about mobile on a global scale that was put out a couple of years ago. Sophie: That's cool. What was that book? Tim: It's called Global Mobile. It's six hundred pages and each chapter is written by a different author on a different topic and I think Ushahidi came up twice… Sophie: Oh, that's awesome. Tim: …in the book. Sophie: Do you know what they referenced or what it was…. Tim: One was just talking about how…I don't remember one of the references in much detail. The other one I know that they were talking about a variety of different mobile technological solutions that were out there; I think they were focused primarily on Africa in that chapter or similar areas and they were talking about the different services that are making use of technologies that we might consider a little bit more simple, but they're doing really powerful things with it and so I think that they were focused on the SMS aspect, if I remember right. Sophie: Yeah, it's been definitely challenging, but also interesting that designing a product that is not used for one specific thing; it's very much user-focused and people will download it and decide how they use it, so it's been a challenge to design for that and to keep it well designed but also really, really flexible. Tim: Which is why I guess it's so important I guess that you are getting a chance to experience at least a little bit every once in a while because everybody talks about front-end design perspective, from a development perspective, how important it is to put yourself in your user's shoes and when you're talking about what Ushahidi is dealing with, and it's not just the devices or the browser or the connections: it's the situations; it's just so hard. It's so hard to put yourself in those sorts of shoes and understand what it must feel like to use the application or the site in those sorts of scenarios; that's such a huge challenge. Sophie: Yeah, there's no way that, well it sounds selfish saying it, but hopefully there's no way I would ever actually be able to experience that but I think that is why we have such a strong and valuable user advocacy team so that they can really communicate with them when people are in those situations and as they're using it in those situations. Tim: Do you get feedback from the users that are pertaining directly to things like how quickly they're able to report something or how quickly they're able to get access to the data that's been reported, in terms of it takes too long sort of a thing, not just a usability thing but from a performance perspective? Sophie: We haven't. Or not that I know of. Tim: Well, maybe that means you're doing an awesome job! Sophie: We'll see. It's also tough because the new version is yet to be used on a wide…by a lot of people, so we'll see, but it is great because we have the product is also open source, so we have a lot of community submissions and ideas so this is again the first time I've worked on something like that where I'll just be in my normal task list that we use internally as a team and I will get one from…I'm in Katmandu and this thing is not working; can you add this? So it is really cool to see that people care about improving the product. Tim: That's awesome. Katie: Is there anything that you've learned from going through this process and being hit with all of these pretty heavy design constraints that are just, oh man, there's no way I can ignore that. Has that changed your view on design, even outside of this product in particular? Sophie: I think that this has, compared to how I used to design, I'm keeping things a lot more simple, not even necessarily visually; visually as well but also just in how they work and not trying to dictate how something should work. Oftentimes we'll, with other people in my design team or sometimes with our developers, we'll discuss how something, spend hours doing flows and then just realizing, why don't we just let people do what they want to do and take a step back and not define so much how this should be used, so I think just the fact that so many different people are using it for different ways, I've found that it's often best to leave things open and then to not over-complicate them. Katie: Is that kind of freeing? Sophie: Errr….it's been difficult because I'm so used to not being like that. But yeah, kind of. For me as a designer it's been kind of hard to let go of control. Katie: Yeah, that's usually I think our downfall as designers is wanting to control everything and that's kind of a big part about embracing performance too: it just sounds boring to design for performance, even though it's not and it's just like anything else. Sophie: Yeah, I think that I talked to ??? about this a long, long time ago and I remember it's stuck with me in terms of performance but also it's kind of user advocacy side of design, which is that it's not in conflict with the design; you shouldn't think of performance as taking away from visual design but it's just a piece of design so it's just another aspect of UX and if it loads faster, then that'll make the design better. Katie; It means you did your job well! Sophie. Yeah, exactly. Tim: At the end of the day it's about, especially in your case, but at the end of the day it's really about how quickly can the people using the site or the application get the task done that they came to the site to do and so that makes performance comes right up front and center along with any other bit of the process really, information architecture, clear content structure and good visual design; it all contributes. Sophie: That's what design is, right? Getting people to be able to do what they want as easily as possible. Katie: Is this something that you were thinking about before having these experiences in these other parts of the world, or was that the eye-opener of, oh-whoa, my designs should encapsulate this? Sophie: Yeah, I think it's always something theoretically that I could be like, your designs have to load really fast, of course, but selfishly I've always wanted them to look really cool or try out some latest thing that's trending on the web. So I think it's helped me step out and realize I'm not designing this for me. If I want to try something, I can just do it on my own site. Katie: So, I'm wondering if that's maybe the first step for designers that are not wanting to think about it… Sophie: Make them design something for someone in crisis. Katie: Yeah! Sophie: At an agency, every junior designer has to design for… Tim: Oh man! Sophie: …life or death situations. Katie: It's part of the interview process, you need to whiteboard a crisis design. Sophie: Yeah! Tim: Talk about no pressure right off the gate, that's what you're dealing with! Sophie: Have either of you seen Eric Meyer's presentation? Tim: I have not, but I've heard it's excellent. Sophie: I really want to. Katie: I want to see it as well. Sophie: It sounds really… Katie: Everything you are talking about is making we think of that. Sophie: I would really, really love to hear, I don't know if he would…he could be a good guest on the podcast just to talk about his experience. Tim: Yeah, I'd love to talk to Eric. I've heard the presentation is just fantastic but I haven't had a chance to catch it live. I don't know if it's recorded or not anywhere but if so, I haven't seen it. Katie; I think if any of you want come hang out in Ohio, I believe I would have to double-check, but I think he's giving that Rustbelt Refresh in Cleveland in September. Tim: I do like that conference. I did that last year, it's a lot of fun. Katie: So, you want to come hang out in Ohio and see it? Tim: Sunny Cleveland! Katie: Where the lake caught on fire! Sophie: Oh my God! Tim: I don't think I heard this. Katie; I think it was before I ever lived in Ohio, ten or so years ago. It may have been the river, it may have been the lake, I can't remember. One of them was so polluted that it caught on fire at some point. (45:11) Tim: That sounds a lovely! Sophie: That's terrifying! Tim: My only knowledge of Cleveland, which I think is probably upsetting and insulting to all people who live in Cleveland… Katie: Drew Carey Tim: Yep. So, I apologize for that! Sophie: I've been to Cleveland; I spent two weeks in Cleveland. Katie: What? Sophie: I was going through, you know, being young and wanting to work for Obama during the election but even then, I don't know what's in Cleveland, even after spending time there. Katie: I have been to Cleveland twice and I don't know. I live two hours from it; I couldn't tell you what's in Cleveland. Sophie: Really cheap houses if I remember; lots of empty, cheap houses! Katie: One time I tried out to be on The Price is Right this is when Drew Carey was the host and because I am really bad at being like, wooow, cookie-crazy person to be on The Price is Right, they interview every person that goes through the process and like, "why should we pick you?" and my only response was just like, "I'm from Ohio. Just like Drew. Cleveland Rocks, right?" Sophie: Certainly good for TV. Katie: Yeah, well, we'll talk about Ohio. Obviously I did not make it! Tim: That's sad! Sophie: There's still hope; you could try again. Tim: Don't give up on that. Katie: No, that was actually…. Sophie: Don't give up on your dreams. Tim: No, you've got to follow through. Katie: That was horrific; you're just like cattle being herded for six hours through this line as they interview every single person that goes in the thing, so if you're ever in LA and thinking, it would be fun to go on The Price is Right: it's not. Sophie: Think again! Katie: Sophie, you never did that when you lived there? Sophie: A lot of people I knew did. Katie: Did anyone ever get picked? Sophie: They did it…I grew up in LA and they filmed Jeopardy I think right next to my High School and they would do it as a fundraising thing where you would…they'd get a group things of tickets to Jeopardy and then the cheerleading squad or whoever would try to sell them individually. Katie: Whoa! Sophie: That's the closest I've gotten. Katie: Growing up in LA sounds wildly different from anywhere else! Was it? Sophie: We didn't have any lakes that lit on fire! Katie: Wasn't your High School the one from Grease? Sophie: Yep! Katie: Oh man. Sophie: And Party of Five. Is that what that show was called? Katie: Yeah. Tim: That's kinda cool. Katie: I'm more interested in Rydell High though. Sophie: I think they filmed it in partially different schools but the stadium was our stadium. Katie: The track where Danny's trying to be a jock and running around? Sophie: Yeah, yeah. Katie: Aw man, that's the worst part when Danny's trying to be a jock! Sophie: Wonder Years. Wonder Years, that's the block I grew up on. Katie: Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: Dang, you have Wonder Years, Alison has Dawson's Creek. Sophie: Dawson's Creek. Way before my time. Katie: I want to grow up on a teen drama! Sophie: The Yellow Brick Road was also the street, from the Wizard of Oz. Tim: Where was the Yellow Brick Road? Sophie: Before the houses were built, they filmed it on the street that my house was on. Tim: What? Sophie: And then years later, they had a reunion for all of the oompa-loompas that I accidentally walked on and I was sort of….what? Katie: Were they dressed up? Sophie: No. Tim: Wait, wait, wait…you just said oompa-loompas, but isn't that…that's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, right? Sophie: Not oompa-loompas. Munchkins! The Munchkins! Tim: I was like, wait a minute… Katie: Glad you got that 'cos I didn't! Sophie: I didn't either, I was like, this sounds right. Tim: Yeah, OK, I just wanted to clarify which movie it was. Sophie: Can we cut this out? We're going to get complaints from Little People of America organization. Tim: Yeah, that's fine. Actually we could use a few complaints. We haven't got many or any yet. Katie: Thanks for bringing it up. Now we're going to….well, if you're looking for feedback, let me tell you...you can lay off the chit-chat. Tim: We've gotten plenty, plenty of negative feedback and complaints so please don't bother sending those emails or letters. There, that should… Katie: I'm going to write you a strongly worded letter about your podcast! Tim: It happens. Sophie: This really went off the rails! Tim: It did, but you know what? That's cool. That's all right. I feel like… (50:03) Katie: It was getting really heavy, so you know we to lighten it up. Tim: It was, we had to lighten it up and I feel like it's kind of weird that we had gone this far without talking about Drew Carey so, you know, however many episodes we're into this and Drew Carey had never come up; seems wrong. Katie: Really? Sophie: Give us some Drew Carey facts, Katie! Katie: Actually, well I don't know any Drew Carey facts but I'm sure Tim has lots because that seems like that's your era of TV. Tim: I'm not that old, all right? Katie: Yeah, but Everybody Loves Raymond, you'll never… Tim: Yeah, I actually had…. Sophie: Are you Everybody? Tim: No, no. Am I? Sophie: Do you love Raymond? Tim: I do love Raymond; I do. It was a good show, all right? It was a good show. Under-appreciated by the current generation! Sophie: It was the most popular show ever at the time. Tim: It was really popular; really popular. Sophie: Did you just watch it on multiple TVs over and over again to up the ratings? Tim: Errr…. Katie: He had it going on every TV in the house, the whole day and night! Sophie: The syndication too so they're getting those checks, all from Tim! Katie: Tim loves Raymond! Sophie: New TV show! Tim: All right, all right; neither one of you are ever invited back on this podcast; even you, Katie. That's it, that's the end of it. I'm going to go start my own podcast where we're going to talk about Everybody Loves Raymond and The Drew Carey Show and things like that. Katie: Indiana Jones Tim: Indiana Jones, yep. This really did get off the rails. My gosh! Sophie: Yeah, feel weird going back to talking about crisis. Tim: So, well, you know, maybe we don't, there was a lot of really good, like Katie said, it was getting really serious and really awesome discussion, I think, around performance and it was really cool to hear somebody who is coming at it from that global perspective which, it's just not something that we commonly think about a lot, for most of us aren't dealing with on a day to day basis, so it's really interesting to have somebody come in and burst the bubble a little bit and give us a broader perspective. Katie: Yeah, it's great because I think like you said, Sophie, earlier: in theory everybody's like, it's nice and stuff and obviously we talk a lot about performance and everything and it's one of those things that I think everybody is like, yeah, yeah, in theory yeah, we want it to be fast because we don't want to be shamed by Twitter, but… Sophie: Other web designers! Katie: Yeah, basically. So it's great for you to come in here and give us the perspective of what that actually means and hopefully shed some light on that empathy. Sophie: Yeah, thank you for having me. Katie: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Tim: Going forward, it anybody wants to follow along and hear more about what Ushahidi's doing or about what you're doing, how do they do that? Sophie: For Ushahidi, I would recommend following Ushahidi on Twitter, ushahidi.com for a lot of information about all their different products and blogposts and then for me, my website is sophieshepherd.com Tim: Very cool. Katie: What about any social media that you may have because, I might be biased, but I think Sophie you have a pretty good account that's pretty funny! Sophie: My Twitter unfortunately is sophshepherd, because there's a British teenager named Sophie Shepherd who took that from me. So, don't follow her unless you want to hear a lot of complaining about tests and boyfriends. Katie: Do you follow her? Sophie: Occasionally! Then I get too mad about it and then I think, what if they think it's me? Katie: Is she also blonde and kind of looks like you? Sophie: Yeah, I've sent her a message; she does kind of. I sent her a message on Facebook once and she went, what are you freak? And then that was it. Katie; Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: She called you a freak? Sophie: Yeah. I'll put a screenshot in our speaker notes! Katie: OK, well follow the real Sophie Shepherd then. Sophie: Yep. Tim: Well, thank you and we'll definitely have to have you on again to discuss because I feel like there's a lot more we could get into in terms of Drew Carey and Ray Romano, so in a future episode. Katie: You can do that on your separate…Everyone Loves Ray. Tim: And Tim Loves Raymond. Yeah, that's good. It'll be the initial episode. Sophie:: Tim and Ray. All right. Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thanks; bye. Katie: Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Path to Performance podcast. You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes or on our site pathtoperf.com; you can also follow along on Twitter @pathtoperf. We'd love to hear what you thought so feel free to drop us a note on Twitter or leave a raving and overly kind review on iTunes. We like to read those. And if you'd like to talk about being a guest or sponsoring a future episode, feel free to email us at hello@pathtoperf.com

Lara Hogan Senior Engineering Manager of Performance at Etsy joins Gary Rozanc to discuss performance for interactive designers from, how to take better photos to better understanding file formats. The conversation also goes into details on how design education can include performance training in the classroom and what she wishes beginning graphic designers had more experience with. The conversation wraps up with Lara describing the problem solving skills she looks for when hiring at Etsy and her method for doing it.

This week we talk with Brian Greene and John Hoyt, both both members of the user experience team at Nationwide Insurance. We discuss the challenges of working with such a big team, how they promote performance across departments, managing user expectations and improving perception of speed by designing feedback mechanisms, and more. Show Links: Velocity Conf Zach Leatherman slides for The Performance and Usability of Font Loading Steve Souders - Design+Performance Nationwide Episode 1 Conversation with Lara Hogan of Etsy Bryan Green John Hoyt

Welcome to the Path to Performance, a podcast for everyone dedicated to making websites faster. In this episode, we discuss Tim's latest project, What Does My Site Cost, HTTP2, and a new site for performance audits (perfaudits.com). For our interview this week, we're joined by Lara Hogan. Lara is the Senior Engineering Manager of Performance at Etsy and the author of Designing for Performance. She shares how she uses video to show website performance, how she motivates her Etsy team to care about performance, how to get your clients excited about performance, and more. Our sponsor this week is Build Right: Workshops for a better web. Build Right's workshops will help bring you up to speed on the most advanced tools and techniques for crafting the web—and get you excited to build right. Show Links: Lara Hogan Lara Hogan on Twitter What Does My Site Cost? WebPageTest PerfAudit.com Advanced Performance Audits with DevTools HTTP2 for front-end web developers With HTTP/2, Akamai Introduces Next Gen Web Seth Walker on Twitter Code As Craft Etsy's Performance Wall Monitor Recent Etsy Performance Hero Designing for Performance CatchPoint Nagios Native app performance metrics Colt McAnlis on Twitter Etsy on GitHub We'd love to hear from you! If you have feedback or you'd like to be on the show, email us at hello@pathtoperf.com!

Lara Hogan is a self taught Front-End Developer, working on performace at Etsy and a soon to be published author