Podcasts about katie so

As a first-time mom, Katie was struggling with potty training and feeling like she didn't know what she was doing. She later became a potty training consultant to help other struggling moms and now hosts the Burnt Pancakes podcast. Katie's first birth was a scheduled breech Cesarean. Her second birth was a spontaneous 36-hour labor at 39 weeks and 1 day with 1.5 hours of pushing and a tough recovery from a 3rd-degree tear and labial adhesions.Katie wanted to go for a VBAC again with her third. Though she thought she would go into labor at 39 weeks spontaneously again, she actually ended up getting induced at 41 weeks. She got an epidural right at the end of her labor, but was able to push her third son out in just two pushes!Meagan and Katie talk about how pelvic floor physical therapy is necessary for both Cesarean and vaginal birth recoveries. No matter how long it's been since you gave birth, it can still be a game-changer!Katie's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, welcome everybody. We have our friend, Katie, with us today sharing her 2VBAC stories and before we got started, we were talking about once you have that C-section and you're contemplating having a VBAC and you talk to people and they're like, “Wait, you can't do that. Doctors won't let you do that.” Right? Katie: Mhmm, yep. Meagan: But what have we learned? What have we learned over all the years? Yes, we can. Yes, you can. Women of Strength, if you are listening and you have had one C-section and you are wanting to know your options, we are going to share two stories today. Okay, so Katie– you guys, she is the host of a podcast. Is it Burnt Pancakes? Katie: Burnt Pancakes, yep. Meagan: Tell us more about that. Katie: Okay. So when I became a mom, my oldest son was potty training and it was an absolute disaster. That's probably the point in motherhood I felt the absolute worst. He had a tendency to poop his pants whenever we were in my friend's backyard running around and playing. One day, he had this awful mess. I was cleaning it up. I was frustrated. I was like, “Oh my gosh. He's never going to get it.” My friend looked at me and was like, “Katie, don't worry about it.” Everyone burns their first pancake. I was like, “That just made me feel so validated as a mom.” Fast forward about 8 years and I decided to start my own motherhood podcast and I named it “Burnt Pancakes” because we are all figuring out this thing as we go. Meagan: I love that so much. It's so true.Katie: So true. I'm still figuring it out. Meagan: I know, every day. As soon as I feel like I've started figuring out motherhood and parenthood and all of that, it starts to change on me. Katie: Right. It throws you for a loop. Meagan: Right. If you can relate here, go listen to her podcast and it's just called “Burnt Pancakes”. And you are everywhere, right? Katie: “Burnt Pancakes”. We have mom-versations each week. I love to chat with moms. One of my favorite things to do was meet a mom at a park and hit it off and start chatting. That's what I wanted my podcast to feel like– real moms chatting about motherhood. Meagan: Real moms chatting about motherhood. Then maybe was the inspiration between that whole experience with your son what led to also potty training consulting? Katie: Correct. At the time, I was teaching. I taught for 17 years. It was potty training my first son which was an absolute disaster. But fast forward, I have two more kids. I potty trained them and things got easier. I started feeling very confident in my skills and people started asking me for tips. I decided to become a full-time potty training consultant so now I actually help moms with the potty training process which blows my mind because if you had asked me 8 years ago, “Would you be doing this?” I would have said, “Heck no. I have no clue what I'm doing.” But what I am doing is trying to help moms who are in the same shoes I was in. You can do this. I can help you get through it. I have the answers for you that I didn't have back then. Meagan: Yep. That's exactly how we are here at The VBAC Link. We were in the thick of it. It was a rocky journey. There were a lot of unknowns and if you asked me 8-9 years ago if I was going to be doing a podcast sharing VBAC stories, I probably wouldn't have said yes. I would have been like, “Probably not,” and here we are inspiring and encouraging. Katie: Heck no. Meagan: I'm so excited for you. So tell us where people can find you for potty training because I'm sure a lot of people listening right now especially being pregnant, you probably have a toddler as you are preparing for your birth. Katie: Yes. You can find me at my website. My website is burntpancakes.com. On social media, you can find my potty training information at @itspottytime. Meagan: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. Katie: Yeah. Meagan: I do have a Review of the Week to share before we get into these stories. Katie: Go for it. Meagan: This is by theblanchardbunch. It says, “Get PUMPED!!!” It says, “Listening to this podcast just gets me pumped. You've had a C-section and you want a VBAC. Absolutely. You've had two C-sections. You go for that VBAC. Oh, you've had three or four? Go get that VBAC, mama, because you are a queen and 100% capable. Seriously, this podcast not only informs you of all the amazing things our bodies can do but also, you are immediately welcomed into a space of understanding and love. Our bodies are powerful but sometimes we just need a little help becoming empowered. This podcast does just that. I'm preparing for my VBAC and I'm currently 36 weeks pregnant. I think that all the time what I'd say or share if I were on the podcast because I am so sure this VBAC is happening. Thank you to all of the mamas who have shared their stories and thank you to Julie and Meagan who have created a space for all of these mamas needing to be uplifted and empowered.” What a fun review. Katie: Aww, that's amazing. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love this. It's in all caps right here. “GO GET THAT VBAC, MAMA, BECAUSE YOU ARE A QUEEN AND 100% CAPABLE.” I couldn't agree more with theblanchardbunch. I hope that you got your VBAC. Congratulations on your birth and as always, if you have a review, I would love for you to share it. I read them every single week and they really do truly bring me all of the joy. Katie: I love that. Meagan: Okay, Ms. Katie. Let's turn the time over to you. Let's share these stories. Katie: Okay. Well, my story starts 10 years ago. It's really hard to believe it's been that long but I was pregnant with my first son and we got the news at 28ish weeks that he was breech which I at the time didn't even know what that meant. It was just a regular appointment and my doctor just nonchalantly was like, “Oh, he's head up. Okay, you'll probably end up having a C-section.” Meagan: Whoa. Katie: I was like, “Come again?” First of all, what's head up? I don't know. Meagan: At 28 weeks? Katie: Yes. Yes. Crazy. She made it seem like no big deal but for me, it was. I'm a taller girl. I'm 5'9”. I've always had bigger hips, a nice pear shape so I always thought, One day, these hips are going to serve a purpose. When I'm giving birth, these things are going to come in handy. My instant thought was, My body is not going to be able to do that. How can you just drop that on me and not feel anything? She basically said, “Most babies won't turn. There's a chance he could turn but you might just end up having a C-section.” I was like, “Well, is there a chance? What's this?” She's like, “You can try something to turn him but that's just the way it was.” Meagan: No offering of an ECV or anything like that in time? Katie: As the weeks went on, she mentioned it, but for her, she was like, “I've been doing this for years. Most of the time, I don't see them turn.” She just made it seem like a C-section was totally cool and totally normal. I was like, “What? How can this be?” I did try almost everything to get him to turn. At the time, I was taking a yoga class. Side note– Drew Barrymore was in my yoga class. Looking at you right now, I'm like, “You look so much like her.”Meagan: I've been told that for so many years– Drew Barrymore and Winona Ryder. Apparently, those two people I look like. Katie: When you hopped on the call, I was like, “Oh my god. You look like Drew.” I tried to play it super cool because at the time, we were living in LA and I was like, “Oh my god, Drew Barrymore is right next to me.” She even said something to me like, “Hey, mama.” I tried to play it so cool.Anyway, in that yoga class, all the moms were like, “You need to go see this chiropractor. You need to try this.” They were super supportive so I did go see a chiropractor. I forget what they called the procedure but it was massaging your hip flexors really, really hard. I don't know why that makes him turn. It was loosening some ligaments to make them turn. Meagan: Like your round ligaments and stuff? Katie: Yes. I believe that's what it was. It was extremely painful and the chiropractor at the time was like, “You're going to do great in birth because you have excellent pain tolerance.” I was like, “Okay, thank you.” He did not turn. At the time, there was a website called Spinning Babies. Meagan: There still is. Katie: Okay. I literally Googled everything to get him to turn. I lay on my couch with my hips up. I had my husband sing to me “Turn Around” over and over. I did everything. He did not turn so in April, they were like, “Okay, here's your scheduled C-section appointment.” I at least had time to prepare for the C-section. It wasn't an emergency. I took all the notes on tips to do to help recover and in that sense, I felt prepared and I got to be at peace with the fact that I wasn't delivering vaginally. But it was still weird when they were like, “April 26th. That's going to be the day when he comes in.” I'm like, “You're picking his birthday. What if he's not ready at 39 weeks to come?” Then two days before, “Oh hey, the doctor has an opening on the 25th so we're going to take you on the 25th.” I called my husband, “They're changing it to Friday.” Meagan: It's a weird feeling for them to be like, “Hey, you are going to have your baby this day around this hour.” Katie: Yeah and it was earlier than the due date so it just felt really weird. Meagan: Was it a week before?Katie: It was a week before, yeah. He was born at 39 weeks and 1 day. I still wonder. His sign– I can't remember which one it is but the sign he was born on was not what he could have been born and it just doesn't match up. He seems more like a Taurus than this and I'm like, “Is it because they chose when you were going to come?” We showed up that Friday for the C-section and of course, I got to do my hair. I got to take a shower so that was nice. You show up at the hospital and they're like, “Okay, your 8:00 appointment.” You're like, “Am I checking into a hotel here or giving birth?” I never once felt a contraction. I mean, it's weird to say I was sad that I didn't feel that because later I learned what that feels like and I'm like, “That was fun.” Meagan: It sounds weird but at the same time, it's this natural feeling that we've been taught and told that our body does so you mourn that. Katie: Yeah. I want to feel it. That was it. I was mourning the fact that my body wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. A weird thing– we did the hospital birthing class. It was 4 hours. They talked about C-section for maybe 5 minutes of the whole class but then they said, “3 out of 4 people will have a C-section.” That was the statistic from the hospital. I was like, “Oh, well that's not going to be me.” This was before I knew he was breech. That's not going to be me. But I'm like, Why would you spend only 5 minutes if 75% of us end up in a C-section? How is that possible? Yeah. It felt weird. But I did go in somewhat prepared. It still felt very sterile and scary but we had him via C-section. He's totally healthy. There were extra doctors in the operating room just because he was breech so there were four pediatricians. My husband was like, “The room was filled. It was pretty crazy.” But he was healthy. He was fine. Everything turned out great. I do feel like with a C-section though, I was completely out of it for 24 hours. I don't remember my parents coming. I vaguely remember but my husband was like, “Your mom and dad were here.” I was like, “Oh gosh, they were.” I vaguely remembered. Meagan: That's how I was too. I was in and I was out. Katie: Yes. I didn't breastfeed him for the first hour until they got me to the other room and they were like, “Oh, were you planning on breastfeeding?” I didn't know that I could breastfeed him in the first few minutes. I wasn't aware. The recovery for that was a lot harder. Just getting out of bed to go to the bathroom the first day was excruciating. But we were fine. I recovered from it and it was all good. Moving 3 years forward, we got pregnant with our second kid. I found out I was having a second boy which for anyone who has experienced gender disappointment, it's a real thing and it's totally okay to mourn the loss of a daughter or just feel unsure about the gender of your baby. I remember crying. I got home from the ultrasound and was just bawling because I was like, This was my girl. Where is she? This is a boy. It did take me a couple of months after he was born before I was feeling pretty good with it and that's a normal feeling. I think no one really talks about that. But it was a totally normal pregnancy. What we did discover from the first one is that I had very low water fluid in my amniotic sac so they said that could have been the reason. My second son, I definitely didn't have that because I put on about 40 pounds and was much bigger. I was able to stay super active during that pregnancy doing boot camp and lifting weights until the last month. We moved from LA to Orange County so I had to get a different doctor for this pregnancy. The doctor I saw from day one was like, “If you want a VBAC, we can absolutely go ahead and try that.” She actually more encouraged it. Everything I had heard when I had the C-section was, “Your son was breech so that doesn't mean you can't deliver naturally in the future,” but a lot of hospitals and doctors were kind of hesitant about it.” This doctor was like, “No. I don't see any reason why you can't try.” You do have to sign your life away pretty much. I had to sign a thing saying these are all of the things that could happen and that is terrifying. Meagan: I'm accepting that. Katie: Yes and it's my liability here. The doctors are off the hook but she was very supportive about it but she never made me feel like I couldn't do it. His pregnancy went just fine. I went into labor naturally right before the 39-week and 1-day mark. I actually had him at 39 weeks and 1 day exactly the same as the C-section so it made me feel a little bit better like I didn't take my older son too early. I was always worried, Did I take him out too early? I did have a lot of baby blue and a little bit of postpartum with my first and sometimes I wondered, Was it because of the C-section? I don't know if there's any science behind that. He wasn't ready to come yet. Meagan: You guys didn't have your bonding. Your body didn't naturally go into labor. There are a lot of things that could come into play. Katie: All that ran through my mind. Yes. Yeah. Meagan: But sometimes those who go into labor still get those postpartum depression and baby blues. Katie: Totally, yeah. Absolutely. I went into labor and this one was about 36 hours. It was very long. I didn't realize that a few hours into getting contractions, my water actually broke. I thought I peed myself. I was sitting at home laboring and laboring. Things were just taking forever. I was having regular contractions. They weren't as close as I thought they were supposed to be. I don't know what it is. I don't know if other moms feel this but when you go into laobr, it's almost like you go into the zone and it's like, I'm just doing this thing. My husband was like, “Should we call the doctor?” I was like, “No, not yet. I don't think we are supposed to.” I was just in the thing. Meagan: You're focused. Your focus shifts. Katie: Looking back, I should have called the doctor the second I went into labor just to get tabs and figure out when I should go in but I was just like, “No. We've got to keep waiting. I don't feel like I'm ready to have him yet.” We finally got to the hospital hours and hours later and they were like, “Oh, your water broke a while ago.” I ended up being in labor with him for a very long time. I ended up pushing for an hour and a half. I do remember at one point they said, “Okay, if we can't get him out, we will have to go and do a C-section.” That was like, no. I really, really wanted this. I didn't do a whole lot of preparing. With the first one, we did the classes. I did research, but this one was kind of like, I'm just going to go in and trust my gut. I'm just going to see what happens. I was totally prepared that if it was going to be a C-section, I knew what to expect but I really wanted to see if my body could do it. I remember the nurse kept saying, “You've got to keep your eyes open when you push.” For me, it just felt so unnatural to keep my eyes open. I just wanted to scrunch up. She was like, “Relax your face and keep your eyes open.” I was like, “That doesn't feel right.” I think my son had a giant head. He still to this day has a larger head than my oldest son. It just was hard to get him out but he finally came out. I gave birth to him. I was able to walk around so much quicker and the recovery was a lot better. I did end up having a third-degree tear so it's not like vaginal birth is less damaging than a C-section. I have scars from both kids. Meagan: Not always. Katie: But it was so nice to know, I know what it feels like to go through it. I had an epidural with him. I think I was maybe 5 or 6 centimeters so it's not like I ever got to crazy intense contractions and I didn't feel anything when I was pushing. Part of it was I didn't feel anything when I was pushing and I think that was kind of hard because I didn't feel anything to get him out. Meagan: Sometimes that can play into tearing actually weirdly enough and then the lack of ability to push in a position if we are in a back crunch position. We are putting more pressure so if we do have a baby with a little bit of a larger head or is having a harder time coming out– which by the way, first-time moms, you guys, 36 hours with an hour and a half of pushing is crazy but it can be very normal. Katie: It's normal. It's so normal. I think what was hard for me was I looked at the clock when I started pushing because I had friends who were like, “Oh, I pushed for this long. I pushed for this long.” With my third, I decided, Don't look at the clock. Don't think about how long it's going to take. It's just going to take as long as it needs to be, because it was an hour of pushing. One thing that was kind of scary is that his heart rate would go down every time I'd push so they were like, “This could be dangerous.” Another thing was that I might have to get him out sooner so they would have me push for a contraction and then wait on a contraction. It was literally 6 minutes in between pushes. It just took a long time. But he was a healthy little boy and all was good. We thought we were going to have two kids. Everything was wonderful and then a year later, my husband was like, “Okay, are we ready to get rid of the baby clothes?” I'm like, “Umm, actually, I don't think we are done yet.” Part of me still wanted a girl but I just did not feel like our family was complete. It was the weirdest feeling because we had always said, “We are going to have two kids.” We've got a three-bedroom house. It just made sense. Then we both decided– we had a little talk. If we were to have another kid and it ends up being a boy, are you okay with that? We were both like, “Yes. I feel like three is what's going to make our family complete.” I was a little bit older. At the time, I was 38 so I'm like, “If we want a third, let's try for it this year and if not, that's a sign.” We did get pregnant with the third. I did not find out what I was having on this one because I was like, I have a feeling it's going to be a boy and I don't want to feel that disappointment again while I'm pregnant, and if it's a girl, what a fun surprise to wait and find out. We didn't find out. I don't know if anybody else feels this way, but I had dreams about having a boy. My mom gut was like, You're going to be okay with another little boy.  I kind of knew, but I still wanted to wait. This pregnancy went fine. With my middle, I was all for working out and going to boot camp, and felt really great. With this one, I was like, I've got two kids and I am exhausted. I put on more weight than I ever had. I could not move around. I hurt the most. I had the worst pelvic bone pain. Meagan: SPD?Katie: Probably. Probably, but I did not really speak up. I told my doctor, “Oh, I'm feeling some pain.” She was like, “That's normal during pregnancy.” Now, looking back, I know people who saw a chiropractor during pregnancy and I'm like, “That's what I needed.” Meagan: Or even pelvic floor. Katie: Yep. That's what I needed because for a year after having him, I would get pain when I would walk and I'm like, I wish I had known that there was something I could do about that. So if you are feeling pain, speak up because I could have done something about it. With this one, I was very large. I was ready to have him. I got to that 39-week mark and was like, He or she is coming. I know it's any day now. Then my due date hit and he was not there yet. The doctor was like, “Oh, you're already dilated. It's coming soon.” She stripped my membrane and was like, “Oh, in a day or two you're going to have him but let's just schedule an induction in case.” We get to 41 weeks and still was not having a baby. Having two at 39 weeks and then having to wait until 41 was an eternity. It felt like the longest wait ever. I think this was God's way of saying, “You're done now. You're good,” because I remember feeling like I never wanted to be pregnant again. I am never giving birth again. This is the last time and I felt very complete with that whereas with the second one, it was like, Is this really the last time I'm going to carry a baby? Is this the last time I'm going to give birth? It felt really nice. I was still seeing the same doctor I was seeing with my middle son. She was on board. She was actually telling me that if you've done a VBAC and then you have another one, it's not considered a VBAC. Is that what you've heard?Meagan: No, it's still considered a VBAC but your risks go up. Your risks go up for vaginal birth and down for things like uterine rupture. Unfortunately, you're always going to be a VBAC. Katie: Yeah. Okay, so risk went down. Okay. But she was totally on board with it. I had to be induced with this one. I literally have tried everything. I've had a C-section. I've had an epidural birth and I've had an induction. I can't say that one is better. I feel like they are all part of my birth stories. Each one is special but I had to do the Foley bulb. I had to almost not get the epidural. My water broke a couple of hours into the hospital and then a contraction started very fast. I remember waiting for the anesthesiologist and going, “If he doesn't get here, I'm having this baby.” As he was giving it to me, I felt like I needed to push. I didn't say anything because I was like, I really want the epidural, but I was literally like, Oh my god. I have to push. I have to push. This is so hard. I actually did feel the worst contractions with that because I was literally at the end. After he was done, the nurse came in and I was like, “Hey, can you check me because I think I feel like I need to push?” She checked and she was like, “Let's get the doctor. You're ready.” It was like, epidural and now it's time to push. My husband was actually getting food because they didn't allow him in the room when I got the epidural so he was like, “I'm going to go get breakfast.” I'm like, “Cool, cool.” Then I'm sitting there like, “Umm, is he going to get back in time?” They were like, “Let's do a practice push,” and I'm like, “He's not here yet!”I got him out in one and a half pushes and there was my third boy. It was just such a different experience going from, I'm going to have to push for 3 hours. With this one, I remember thinking, I'm just going to let my body do what feels right. I'm not going to have the nurses tell me to push this way and do that. I'm just going to close my eyes and scrunch my face like they tell me not to do, but it felt so much easier. I remember asking her, “I did my practice push. Did that do anything?” She was like, “Yes. Please stop. I need to get my gloves and I need to get this.” So he was out and I had my third boy. I would say with the two vaginal births, my recovery was so much easier. Just hospital-wise, I was able to move around a lot faster. With my middle son, I was able to go to the park with my boys a week later whereas with the C-section, I don't think I left my house for the first 6 weeks because I was so uncomfortable and it didn't feel right. All three births gave me scars but in a different way. Meagan: Yeah. I actually really love that you pointed out that even with vaginal birth, there can be an extra recovery or extra things because I think sometimes in this world, it's like, C-section is bad. C-section is bad. C-section is bad. VBAC is amazing. VBAC is wonderful. Okay. Absolutely. I believe that VBAC is amazing and wonderful. I do not believe that C-section is bad. I do believe that we have way too many unnecessary C-sections and that is bad. Katie: Right. Meagan: We know though that vaginal birth sometimes isn't all sunshine and butterflies. We have tearing. We have prolapse. We have pelvic floor dysfunction for the next however long because we pushed for 2.5-3 hours or even an hour and a half or we labored for a really long time and we are sore or whatever. Sometimes C-sections can be just the most healing and beautiful experiences for someone. I love that you pointed that out. It's just important to remind everybody listening to go with what you feel is best. No, you don't have to schedule a C-section just in case. No, you don't have to do these things but if you want to and that's what feels right, do it. We encourage you. Katie: I absolutely did not have any incontinence problems after the C-section but after the vaginal birth now, doing jumping jacks and running is a different story. Yeah. It's different. Meagan: I want to talk about that because I also didn't have a lot of incontinence. It's not like I have incontinence now but I have pressure and things like that. I just went to a pelvic floor specialist and she said– oh crap. What did she call them? My bones, the birthing bones, they are my pelvis, but my pelvis was stuck in a flared state from birth. Katie: Oh whoa. Meagan: She manually closed my bones. It was insane. I could feel it. She was like, “Oh, there's no give. Can you feel it?” I was like, “Oh my gosh, yeah.” She worked it, did her PT thing and closed these bones. She said, “Sometimes people have these bones get stuck open after birth and it puts a lot of trauma on their pelvic floor and they have incontinence and all of these things.” Katie: Whoa. Meagan: She did two other things which blew my mind. I've never had that happen with a pelvic floor specialist before but my uterus was really, really hard and she was like, “It should move and float within.” She massaged my uterus and then she went internal and my bladder was adhered from the inside. Even though we have C-sections, Women of Strength, and you have had vaginal births and everything, if you've had that C-section, there is a likelihood of you having adhesions or scar tissue in there that may cause pelvic floor issues and incontinence. So anyway, my bladder was adhered and then there was a part of my cervix that needed to be released. She was like, “I wonder if that's why you had such a long end.” My cervix would stretch but it wouldn't stay. Or she said, “I see this a lot with failure to progress or cervical lips where there is this thing that needs to be released.” As soon as it was, I can't even tell you the difference in how I feel. Katie: Wow. Meagan: The pressure is really pretty much gone. I would say there is maybe a little. She even said, “The next visit might need a little bit more tweaking.” I just ran the other day, 3 miles for the first time in forever. Usually after 1 mile, my pelvic floor would just give out. I did fine. Katie: Don't you wish that was something every OB/GYN was like, “Okay, you're going to see me and you're going to go here”? Or you give birth and it's not like, “6 weeks, you're good.” It's like, “Oh, now you need to go see this.” Meagan: Yes and it's not talked about with C-sections either. A lot of time those C-section scars can cause back pain and pelvic floor things, urine incontinence, pain during sex, and things like that. We don't even know that it's related to our C-section because we've never pushed a baby out of our vaginas. Right? It's so crazy. Katie: My youngest is 4 and I'm like, I should finally book that PT consultation and just find out what's all going on down there. Meagan: Yes! My VBAC baby is going to be 8. At this point of this recording, he is 8 and here I am this year just going. I have done physical therapy before and pelvic work but I've never done it to this extent where I was like, Okay, I'm going to get down to the bottom of this and had results like this this fast. Katie: Whoa. Okay, let me ask you a question. Did you go through your doctor or did you just search and find one yourself? Meagan: I did search and find one myself. The craziest thing is I did call to see if insurance would cover it. They do not. It's all out of pocket. So like you said, I feel like this should be a standard thing regardless of C-section or vaginal birth. It should just be part of our postpartum care. I actually think it should be part of our prenatal care. Katie: Totally. Oh my gosh. I know. Someone I know was getting really bad pains so she went while she was pregnant to PT and I was like, That's exactly how I felt a year ago, because she was having it after me. I was like, I wish I would have known about that, because that would have really, really helped. Meagan: Yeah. Chiropractic care for sure. Pelvic PT. Know that not every birth is going to be amazing and beautiful but all we can do is prepare and understand. Katie: Right. Right. And be at peace with whatever is meant to be. I look back at my C-section. I tell my husband this all the time. If we would have lived on the prairie, I would have died during that breech birth. It would have been almost impossible to deliver him. I did seek out, are there any doctors who deliver breech babies? In LA there was one, but to me, it just felt a little too risky to even go down that route. 100 years ago, I might not have survived childbirth so the C-section for me was a lifesaver. It was so comforting to know that. My first vaginal birth though, I did have some complications after so just because you deliver vaginally doesn't mean it's a piece of cake and it's over. At  my 6-week appointment, I remember telling my doctor, “Something doesn't feel right down there.” She was like, “I'll check it out. Let me see.” I was like, “No, really. Something feels wrong.” My labia actually, part of it fused together. She said there were probably mini tears and it literally was. I was like, “I just don't think the hole is big right now.” She was like, “Oh, yes. I see what you're talking about.” It literally fused together. She was a teaching doctor. She worked for a hospital so she was like, “We never see this. Do you mind if I take a picture for my students?” I was sitting there with stirrups. She was like, “I won't get your face or say your name.” I was like, “Yes. For science, yes. Please take a picture of this.” I ended up in just the hospital visit where she had to cut it and then sauter it back together. I was able to do it in the doctor's office. It was a super easy procedure, but I was numb during that and the recovery from having an open wound in that area when you're peeing is not comfortable. So being 6 weeks postpartum feeling like, I should be getting back to normal, then oh God, this. Meagan: There are always hurdles. Katie: It's not all roses when you deliver naturally either. But I was happy that maybe some other mom– because it was extremely embarrassing. I didn't even want to have my husband look or tell my husband what this was but being able to share it with other moms, they were like, “Why doesn't anyone tell you that stuff like this happens?” And thank God for modern medicine because again, had this been the prairie, I would have never had another child after that. Meagan: Might have been too traumatizing. Yeah. It's just so hard to know. Everybody internalizes and processes differently their births and their experiences. Do the research. Get in your head in a good space. Find your provider and do the things and choose the birth that is right for you. Katie: Absolutely. Absolutely. Meagan: Thank you again for sharing your stories. Congrats. Katie: Oh thank you. Meagan: Definitely go see a pelvic PT. Katie: I'm booking one today. It's time. It's time. Meagan: It's time. Women of Strength, I think it's really important that sometimes we forget this. We deserve to give back to ourselves. After having a baby, it's a really big deal. It's a really big deal no matter how you have this baby. And then on top of it, the lack of sleep and feeding a baby, all of the things. Remember to give back to yourself. Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I learned after my third. It took me three kids that asking for help is okay. I remember with my first I felt like, I don't want to ask for help because they're going to think I don't know what I'm doing. I didn't know what I was doing. By the third, someone was like, “Can we start a meal train for you?” I'm like, “Yes. Please do. Yes. I would like everything.” “Can we take your kids to the park so you can have some time?” “Yes please. Let me know what time you're picking them up.” Meagan: Yes. It's okay to say yes. It's okay to take breaks. Well, thank you again so much. Katie: Thank you so much for having me on. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Dr. Katie Lee is a dentist, speaker, author, and coach who lives in Aurora, Colorado. Dr. Lee graduated from University of Illinois at Chicago in 2010 and was an owner-partner in over 80 DSO supported dental practices throughout the US and served as Clinical Partner overseeing 5 states. Currently, she consults for health technology companies and provides implant education for general dentists. Dr. Lee has two passions in her profession: dentistry itself and making other dentists successful. Her passion about the oral systemic health link comes from personal experience. Dr. Lee was involved in an ATV accident as a teenager, which left her without many teeth and rendered her jaw immobile. Dr. Lee experienced how oral health affects systemic health and the benefits of dental implants. Her first-hand journey in recovering from the effects of dental trauma led her to specialize her career on the mouth-body connection® and dental implants. Dr. Lee searches for proven technologies that improve clinical outcomes and the patient experience and loves to educate her peers on those technologies. Dr. Lee authored a book entitled Saved By the Mouth to educate patients and clinicians on the importance of oral health. Dr. Lee has won many accolades, including Top 40 under 40 Dentists in America, and International Woman of the Year in Dentistry. She has been featured on local Fox and NBC news stations discussing the importance of oral health.     https://www.instagram.com/katieleedds/   https://www.facebook.com/katieleedds   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   Michelle Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Lee. Katie: Thanks. I'm really excited to be here. Michelle: I'm so excited to have you on actually, this is a first, I have never spoken to a dentist on this podcast, but it is such an important topic because there's such a correlation between inflammation in the mouth and also unexplained infertility. And I'm very excited to get started before we get started. I would love for you to give us a little bit of a background on yourself, how you got into the work that you do. Katie: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. I feel honored that I'm, I'm the first. Hopefully, I don't mess it up for the rest of us dentists out there. My journey into dentistry was. Of tragedy. So when I was in high school, about 14 years old, I was involved in a ATV four wheeler accident where I crashed into a telephone pole headfirst without a helmet on, broke every bone in my face from my eyebrows down and naturally, or I [00:01:00] guess as expected, lost a ton of teeth and my jaws were wired shut immediately, even though I had lots of teeth that were displaced and broken. Katie: And, they were wired shut for two months. I'm I couldn't eat and so I was on a liquid diet and My family didn't really know anything about nutrition. So I was Having pudding jello ice cream, you know with Hershey's syrup box mashed potatoes You know all the things that you should not eat to be healthy or maintain your teeth And so I just started developing a ton of dental infection And, , that combined with not being able to eat nutritious foods, you know, my body really started shutting down. Katie: , I lost a ton of weight, my liver enzymes spiked, my kidneys started shutting down. And so I learned from a very early age just how much your oral health affects. Not only your mental and emotional health, but your, your physical health as well. And, you know, it was nine surgeries in four years, , that it [00:02:00] took to reconstruct my face and my jaw. Katie: And then once that was done and only then was I able to my teeth and, and finally replace the missing teeth and fix my smile. So that really. Got me interested in what I do. And then once I got into dentistry, you know, I started going down this journey of oral systemic health. And from a personal experience, I had a lot of fertility issues. Katie: I went through about six years in fertility treatment. And so just really started diving into, you know, how can. How does the mouth affect this and what can I do as a dentist to help other people? Michelle: Yeah, I mean it's definitely something that I think a lot of people do not I don't want to really correlate, but let's, let's actually really break this down because like , how can your teeth impact your body?  Katie: From a high level? Start there? Yeah. So, , there's a couple different ways that the teeth and gums are really affected to the rest of the body. And, the first way that I About is bacteria. So our body [00:03:00] has types of microbiomes and the first real microbiome that we get or we're introduced to is the one in our mouth and we get that, you know, we used to always think that babies were sterile. Katie: We know that they are introduced to some bacteria when in utero first microbiome that we get introduced to is through the mom's vaginal canal. And then Through breast milk and from family members when we're kissing, , and, you know, eating and drinking after them, we get this whole microbiome and the microbiome in our mouth is super important because it's what establishes and feeds our gut microbiome. Katie: And so we know that when we develop dysbiosis in the mouth, what actually happens is that bacteria then go through our gum tissue, or we swallow 80 trillion bacteria a day. And so the bacteria that are in our mouth. We'll go to other places in our body that they're not supposed to be and start to cause damage. Katie: So that's one way that the mouth affects it. And then the other way is through inflammation. So again, when we have these foreign invaders in our mouth, what we know [00:04:00] is that our body elicits an immune response. And that immune response, unfortunately, doesn't stay localized to our mouth. It will break down our gum tissue, making our gum tissue permeable, again, allowing what's in the mouth to get to the rest of the body. Katie: But it also triggers an inflammatory response in other parts of the body, too. And this becomes really important in fertility, because that's when people can start to develop things like endometriosis, pelvic inflammatory disease, and things like Michelle: yeah. And also, as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about all these like alcohol rinses, you know, mouthwashes. So that's huge because people are like, oh, I want to get rid of my mouth bacteria because I want to really clean mouth. So like, But that messes up the good bacteria. So talk about that. I mean, you know more about this than I do Katie: Yeah, no, I mean, that is such a good point. I'm so glad that you brought that up, because The way I was trained, even 10, you know, back in, I graduated in 2010, you know, we were [00:05:00]taught the, the more it burns, the better it's cleaning, right? Like you want something in there that's burning. You want something that's 99 kills 99. Katie: 9 percent of all bacteria. But what we know is that's actually really bad. And to your point, , those types of products are not selective. So they're killing everything that's there. The good and the bad, when really we want to control the bad, support the good. and kind of let the body do its own thing. Katie: The other thing that's damaging about alcohol mouthwashes is that it dries out your tissues. And we know that when you have dry mouth or dry tissues, the bad bacteria love to go to those surfaces and take up shop. And it really supports them colonizing and growing their little, , microbial communities. Katie: So we want to have saliva. Saliva protects our teeth and gums from bad bacteria. So an alcohol containing product is not good for our health. Michelle: Now what does a person do if they were a c section Katie: Yeah. So, you know, there's lots of things that people can do throughout their life to [00:06:00]support their microbiome, you know, C section babies. We know that unfortunately they, they don't get exposed to the. you know, good vaginal bacteria during birth, but there's lots of things that they can do to support their microbiome. Katie: So I'm a, you know, people always talk about taking probiotics and probiotics are great. And what probiotics do is they're actually going to put bacteria into the body. , so it'll, it'll help replenish the bacteria that is missing from the gut. What people also don't understand is that they need to feed the good bacteria that they already have. Katie: So you cannot forget to take. Prebiotics, eat prebiotic food, take prebiotic, supplements. That way you can feed and help nourish the bacteria that's already there. Michelle: Yeah, Katie: We're introduced to so many bacteria every single minute of the day. You know, I, I wouldn't be as concerned once you get into adulthood about having a c section or being a c section baby because by that time you've been exposed to really everything that you need in your life. Katie: At that point it's just about nourishing and keeping it in balance. Michelle: Yeah. For sure.[00:07:00] It's interesting cause I was actually at, , microbiome labs. So are you familiar with them? So they actually have an enzyme like mouth. It's like a mint freshener, but it's like an enzyme one. And there was a guy who was talking about oral health. It was a presenter and he was talking about that and I thought that was really interesting and he also talked about Mouth breathers people who go to sleep and yeah So let's talk about that because that's really important and it's a big thing now people actually tape their mouth Katie: I know, it's just that you don't. Yeah, thank goodness for Instagram, you know, because you'll see someone on Instagram taping their mouth and all of a sudden everyone wants to tape their mouth, so this is really important because You know, there's a really good book out there for people to read called Breath by James Nestor I don't know if you've heard of it. Katie: A patient actually recommended it to me And it basically talks about that over time because of our high processed diet We've gone from eating You know, super fibrous, tough [00:08:00] foods to eating high processed carbohydrates and softer foods. And because of that, the structures of our skull and jaws have actually, , shortened or shrink. Katie: And because we have smaller jaws, it's why we no longer can. Make room for our wisdom teeth. So most people actually have to extract their wisdom teeth now. And what we know is that the smaller our jaws are, the less room in our mouth for our tongue and our airways actually start to shrink. So what happens is when we go to bed at night. Katie: our tongue falls to the back of our mouth and our airway collapses and we essentially start choking on our tongue. And so we start to breathe through our mouth. And the problem with this is our nose is, is such a, an incredible organ. It's designed with. millions and trillions and billions of of cilia in there to filter out the pollutants in the air. Katie: But when we're not breathing through our nose, we're taking in all of that dirty air through our mouth and it goes straight into our oral [00:09:00] cavity. We're introducing new, , microbes into our oral cavity that disrupts our microbiome. We're drying out our tissues. And again, we talked about dry mouth leads to increased bacteria formation, increased plaque formation, but then all that dirty air is also getting into our lung system, , which is not good and will trigger an inflammatory response. Katie: And so people don't realize that mouth breathing. causes or exacerbates allergies, , it also causes oral dysbiosis in the microbiome and therefore gut dysbiosis. And so one of the things that people need to do is to retrain themselves, how to breathe through their nose. So really great way to do that is by mouth taping. Katie: And a lot of patients will say, well, doc, I, you know, I can't breathe through my nose even during the day. And I'll say, well, you've got to retrain yourself how to use that part of your body that you haven't been using forever. So I encourage them to start taping during the day, you know, maybe just do 15 minutes at a time and slowly the nose will start to open up and work again.[00:10:00] Katie: Now, if someone has something more severe, like sleep apnea, they absolutely need to get a sleep test, , to get that diagnosis and then get treatment because. Sleep apnea is where you're actually choking at night. You're not breathing. You're waking up more than five times per hour because your oxygen is desaturating more than, more than 10%. Katie: And so those people need supplemental treatment such as a CPAP or an oral appliance or something like that. But sleep apnea is horrible for your brain. It kills brain cells. It's really hard on your heart and it's fatal if it's left untreated. It's just a matter of when. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. Michelle: that's actually really scary I do know that there's a correlation with weight gain And sleep apnea. So like, it's interesting because it's the whole thing. Like if you're taking care of your body and you're healthy, that impacts all the other things in your life, like your sleep. Katie: Definitely. Sleep apnea, what happens is when you, you know, when you're asleep and you stop breathing, what [00:11:00] happens is your body sends this rush of adrenaline to your brain stem to wake you up enough to take a breath. When you're doing that, you're stressing your body out, so cortisol is released. Katie: Cortisol causes systemic inflammation if it's released at high levels over time. , we also know that it, , lowers our insulin Michelle: Right. And then we gain weight because of that. Katie: yes, making us crave carbohydrates, making us gain weight. And so a lot of people have probably noticed that, and I, I notice this all the time. If I don't get a good night's sleep, I, all I want the next day is carbs, right? Katie: Carbs, Michelle: It's the quickest energy. Katie: I want. So it is crucial. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I mean, cause that's what it is when you're tired, you want quick energy and the body knows instinctively that you'll get it with carbs. Katie: Absolutely. Michelle: course, that's not a very good source of energy. It's not, , an efficient one. Katie: Yeah, you run out of it very quickly. Michelle: And then other questions that I have is over brushing. Michelle: So some people think, okay, after everything that I eat, I'm going to brush my [00:12:00]teeth. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: Yeah, so there's a balance there, right? And what people want to try and avoid is brushing immediately after eating and drinking. Because we know that after you eat and drink, the pH in the mouth is going to go down. So what happens is we put something in our mouth, the mouth is the beginning of our digestive system. Katie: And so our body releases an enzyme in the mouth called amylase. And this amylase is an enzyme that starts to break down the carbohydrates in our mouth. So in order to do that, the pH has to drop. The pH also drops just because most of the stuff we put in our mouth is acidic anyway. And so you combine acidic food and drink with an acidic pH from, from the amylase secretion, and you're setting yourself up for a disaster of erosion and cavities. Katie: And so if you're going to eat or drink something, I always recommend to wait at least 30 minutes, before you brush. But people absolutely need to brush minimum twice a day. I mean that's like non negotiable I always recommend morning and night [00:13:00] if they can get one more in there during the day. That's great But if they can at least do two minutes morning and night, I think people are going to be pretty satisfied with Michelle: yeah, for sure. Now my other question is mercury fillings. Katie: yes Michelle: Yeah, let's talk about that because for a while, oh, it was like no big deal and now they're finding that it is. So it's kind of like brushed off a lot of times. I remember going to the dentist and asking for the white filler and, and he was kind of giving me pushback on that. Michelle: Yeah. Katie: And there's, unfortunately, you know, a lot of dentists out there that still believe that way. , and, you know, I hope your audience doesn't crucify me with this because I don't believe this. But their, their mindset is, and it is true, mercury fillings are stronger than the white composite fillings. Katie: Also, they're less technique sensitive when putting them in so if you're putting in a white composite filling little dental nerd out here You have to have everything completely Isolated [00:14:00]otherwise the white filling won't bond to the tooth and the filling will fail really quickly and the patient will get decay right underneath that Filling when you're packing in the mercury fillings. Katie: I mean, you're literally just Katie: It's called an amalgam, so it's an amalgamation of all this material. And so it doesn't matter if there's saliva. It doesn't matter if there's blood. , because it's not bonding to the two structures. So the dentists don't have to be as careful and think about it. I mean you're working in the mouth where there's tons of saliva and bleeding and things like that. Katie: So they're much Less technique sensitive to put in and they are stronger. , now the downside is they're filled with all kinds of things that are terrible for you. And we know, you know, think if you think about a mercury thermometer, right? There's a very small amount of mercury in that thermometer. But if a thermometer breaks in school, they shut the entire school down and call in a hazmat team to come clean it up, or a biohazardment team to come clean it up. Katie: Yet we're plugging this stuff into people's teeth. And the hard [00:15:00] thing about teeth, or the thing that people need to understand is that teeth are organs. And they have a blood supply, and they have a nerve supply, and to put that, that type of material, especially mercury, near blood supply that's connected to the rest of the body, or nerves that are connected to the rest of the body, in my opinion, is dangerous, you know, if we just use a little bit of common sense. Katie: And so I don't like mercury fillings. And now we're left with a bunch of patients that have them in their head Now, what do we do to remove them because you can't just go in and start Drilling them out and creating all this mercury vapor, right? Because it's not good for the dentist or the patient Michelle: So there's a biological dentists that specifically specialize in removing them. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: I I think it's really important to Go to someone that understands how to remove them correctly correctly. I would not consider myself You know the gold standard biologic dentist, you know, and the fact that I do all zirconia [00:16:00] implants and things like that But I definitely believe in safe amalgam removal because it's actually more dangerous for the provider who's removing the, the mercury filling and the assistant who's suctioning everything out than it is for the patient because we're creating all this vapor that's coming out of the mouth. Katie: Sure, it's coming into your body, but we're the ones that it's getting on our skin. You know, it's settling up next to our thyroid. So a lot of dentists have thyroid issues, myself included. This happened to me early on in my career when I started learning about this, they have fertility issues. , and so it's really important that dentists understand how to remove them safely. Katie: So I, I definitely, if I was having mercury fillings removed, I would make sure my dentist knew how to do it appropriately. Michelle: Yeah. Oh my god. You're giving such good information I really appreciate it because I think these are all questions that people have and you're giving a very well rounded very balanced Information Katie: I always say, you know, there's amalgam dentists, right? Like the traditional You know, every day dentist , and then there's the biologic dentist that do everything on the opposite end of the spectrum. Katie: I would say I'm [00:17:00] over halfway to the biologic dentist, but not all the way quite there. Michelle: Well, I guess it's kind of like traditional medicine. Katie: Yes. Traditional medicine. Yes, Michelle: It's, it's a little bit more of a holistic way to look at Katie: Yes. Yeah, Michelle: , and of course, even with what I do, even though I specialize in alternative medicine, I'm very much in the world of Western medicine because a lot of my patients need sometimes like conventional medical care  Michelle: so it's nice to have a balance of both. Katie: Yeah. I still, you know, I joke all the time. I still believe in science, right? , I still do testing. I still do modalities. There's a time and place for everything. I just think we need to be a little bit smarter about how we approach, you know, healthcare and dentistry and, , not use bad materials that we know are horrible for us. Michelle: 100%. What I'm finding actually is a lot of people in my world are very much now into studies and science. So there is a bridge that's coming together. And I see a lot of, REs that I have developed great relationships with are [00:18:00] very open to what I do to help their patients. So I'm starting to see this shift of everybody coming together, which I love. Katie: That makes me happy because, you know, I did infertility treatment for six years and I saw some of the best specialists in the country. Not one asked them about my oral health. And there's so much research out there about how oral health affects infertility and you know Thank goodness. My oral health was fine. Katie: Of course. I checked it before, you know, I went and did all this stuff But you know, it was just kind of shocking to me how siloed and hyper focused they practiced, you know, and just looking at the reproductive system and nothing else Michelle: Oh, yeah. And even in Spain, they'll check even the vaginal microbiome, which I find so interesting because there's a correlation between that being off and then fail transfers. So they do that like automatically and it increases their success rates and they'll give them like vaginal, Probiotics Katie: I love that Michelle: And, and that's like a thing here. It's not so as we [00:19:00] learn, I mean, and then of course, when I read it starts with egg, that's what really got me into the whole teeth thing and then seeing the science with that. And now, like, even for my intake form, I always have a section that talks about like, have you ever had dental work done because it's important, but you know, you learn, it's not something that I knew like automatically, but as I got more into it. Michelle: I learned. Another thing that I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts about fluoride? Because I know this is a very hot topic. Katie: Hot topic right, you know, I think I think it's a, another conversation like mercury, right? I think for a very long time, we had this major issue of, we call it caries in the dental field, which is just cavities. And so we had, you know, dental decay is like the number one disease in the world. And we had all these. Katie: You know, kids and people that had rampant decay and instead of looking at diet and microbiome, which is what we should have done, we said, okay, well, let's create some sort of chemical or product [00:20:00] that we can do to treat right. We're treating the symptom, not the original form of what's causing it. And so they created this. Katie: But what we now know is that when you. swallow it and you ingest it systemically, it's not good for you. It's a, it's a neurotoxin. And there's so many, I think there's so many other ways that we can combat dental decay where we can get around using fluoride. Now, if I have a patient that comes in that's refusing to do any of these other things that I'm talking about, and they're a teenager, and they have rampant decay everywhere and I know they're not going to make any lifestyle, nutritional, or oral habit modifications. Katie: May I put some fluoride on their teeth? Sure, but it's going to be something that's isolated that they're not going to ingest and swallow. My preference is to not use that because I know that even if I put a little bit in their mouth, it's still going to get in their system. But not treating someone with rampant decay and having Having them lose teeth because of it, or worse, develop an abscess, which we [00:21:00] know abscesses are horrible for our overall health. Katie: To me, that's doing more harm than painting a little bit of fluoride on teeth. But I actually recommend to use products like Nanohydroxyapatite is awesome. It was developed for NASA a long, long time ago to help astronauts, , you know, to prevent them from, from getting decay. So if it's good enough for NASA, it's good enough for me, right? Katie: So I love Nanohydroxyapatite. I love M. I. paste. , I also love arginine. Arginine is something that a lot of people don't know a ton about, but there's a ton of research out there showing that toothpaste that are high in arginine, like Tom's for example, , prevent tooth decay and also help treat tooth sensitivity. Katie: So I think we have Michelle: I love Katie: so many great things out there that we could use in addition to, you know, making sure that we're balancing and nurturing our microbiome. Not eating Jolly Rancher is incredible. Michelle: Yeah, exactly. My kids have been fluoride free. They don't get fluoride. They've been using fluoride free toothpaste. [00:22:00] They have never had cavity. Katie: Amazing. Yeah, and they, and they should never need it, right? Our, Michelle: They floss too. Katie: Yeah, I mean, so there you go, right? And, but what people don't understand, and I would have patients come into my practice, and they would say like, well, I want fluoride free. And I'd say, okay, tell me about your diet. And it was breads and pastas and carbs and sugar and five cokes a day. Katie: And they don't brush or floss their teeth. And they think oil pulling is going to solve everything. You know, and I'm like that, we can't do that, right? We need to, we need to intervene here. But if, someone takes a holistic approach to their oral health care, they should never need fluoride. And we know that our cavity causing bacteria really peaks and starts to decline in mid thirties. Katie: And so if parents are healthy, Their kids are going to be healthy because you're number one modeling healthy lifestyle But number two you're transferring all of your microbiome to your kids And so another thing that people don't realize is that if a parent's mouth is Full of [00:23:00] cavities and gum disease the kids mouth is going to be full of it because you're sharing the same bacteria So good for you for you being healthy and then keeping your kids healthy, too. Michelle: Thank you. I love how balanced this conversation is. It's amazing information. , I just love this because it's so important and it's, it's information that a lot of people just don't have access to, and it's not even like, sometimes it's not even knowing that you need to have access to certain information, but it's like. Michelle: So important. And it could be like that one thing that people are not looking into when they're going through fertility treatments or just challenges overall, Katie: Yeah, and we know that fertility treatment actually increases our inflammatory levels and increases the leakiness of our gum tissue. So if the mouth isn't healthy to start, or even if there's a little bit of dysbiosis going on, fertility treatment is just going to exacerbate it. So it's best to get it treated, you know, it's safe to do it during pregnancy, but it's always best to do it beforehand. Michelle: Yeah, [00:24:00] for sure. So now, let's talk about Peelu gum. So you hear about Peelu gum, , that it's very good for your teeth. I just was wondering what your thoughts on it or if you know, like how it can impact Katie: I actually don't know what that is. Michelle: Oh, so Peelu is from a tree. It's the Peelu tree, I believe. And so they create this gum and it's sugar free, but it's like natural sweetener and it's supposed to actually help clean the teeth. Katie: Okay. Michelle: Yeah. So look into that. Yeah. If you find out anything, email me. Katie: Yeah. Do you know what the sweetener is in it? Is it Xylitol or do you know what's in it? Yeah. So anything with Xylitol I love, , Xylitol is a natural sweetener that tricks the bacteria in your mouth to thinking that it's sugar because that's what the bacteria thrive on. Katie: So the streptococcus mutans cavity causing bacteria in the mouth. What it does is it feeds off of sugar, so that can be sugar from candy or gum or, you know, breads, pastas, processed [00:25:00]carbohydrates, things like that. And then it excretes lactic acid on the teeth and that's what causes cavities. So xylitol, what it does, is the bacteria still thinks it's the sugar that it wants to eat, but once it eats it, it can't metabolize it, so it actually starts, from ingesting the xylitol. Katie: So I love that. I'm gonna look that up. I haven't heard of that Michelle: Yeah. They have it at Whole Foods. It's kind of like a more natural, you know, more natural, but it's supposed to be good for the teeth. Like I think that back in the day people used to chew on it. It was from trees and they would just chew on the actual whatever that was. But Katie: which that's good too, because again, you're chewing on fibrous branches, right? And that's really good to stimulate saliva. It's really good to work on your jaw muscles and it's really good to develop the structural skeleton of the jaw on the face. So Michelle: yeah, so maybe, a little gum chewing is okay. Katie: Oh, I love gum Michelle: strength. Katie: recommend it all the time. Yeah. That's actually one of the things that I do recommend for my patients. , because you know, like I mentioned, it stimulates [00:26:00] saliva. Saliva is like our best protector that we have of our teeth because it neutralizes the pH. It actually coats our teeth in, You know, this like biofilm, right? Katie: That's super healthy. So it protects the teeth from getting any bad bacteria stuck to it. So I'm a big fan of chewing gum. I think it's great. I recommend it for patients all the time. As long as it's sugar free, of Michelle: Yeah. So this might be the ideal thing, the Peelu gum. Katie: Yeah. Michelle: I happen to love it. So it's kind of my guilty pleasure. I try not to do it too much cause I know like it's just, you don't want to wear down your teeth, but Katie: should, I mean, you shouldn't, unless you're really grinding it, like you shouldn't be wearing down your Michelle: right. So it's, it probably protects it anyway. Okay. Well that's good to know. Cause I Katie: habit to do. Michelle: I learned something new. It's nice to hear that you, that you actually promote that or that you support doing that. That's awesome. Wow, this is great information. I know you also have a book about the mouth. Katie: Yes, so I wrote a book called Saved by the Mouth and it's all about how oral health [00:27:00]affects , virtually every organ system in the body. So we talk about brain health, heart health, cancer, fertility, of course, , aging, gut health. And so I wrote it from the, or I wrote it as if I was having a conversation with a patient because I wanted the information to be easily digestible. Katie: And entertaining. And so every, as entertaining as Michelle: I love that. Katie: guess. And so every chapter actually talks about a situation that I had with a patient in my practice and them having to deal with whatever ailment they were dealing with. And so it's, I think it's really relatable. It's a quick read. Katie: , and what I like about it too is it also goes over super simple daily modifications that people can do to improve their oral health and it doesn't have to be like a life changing makeover. They're just small things that you can do to improve health and then also what to ask your dentist for and you can go to any dentist and ask this. Katie: It doesn't have to be a biologic dentist. You know, asking for things [00:28:00] like salivary testing, that's super important to know what's in your microbiome. Asking for your gums to be measured, so you actually know if you have a gum infection, things like that. Michelle: Fantastic. And then you had also talked about how like when people are pregnant, sometimes people will say, don't do any dental work during that time. So talk about that. Cause that sounds like it's an important thing for Katie: it is. It drives me insane. , and I was trained that way, by the way. So, you know, people aren't doing anything wrong. It's, it's, it's, you know, a product of the education system, unfortunately. But what we know is that when people have gum infection, it affects fertility in all sorts of ways. You know, it. It affects not only men, or not only women, but also men. Katie: And We know that if once a woman is pregnant, if she has gum infection, she is 30 to 50 percent more likely to have a preterm birth, a low birth weight baby, or stillbirth. And we know that of [00:29:00] pregnant women, about 40 percent of them present with some sort of gum infection, whether it be gingivitis or gum disease. Katie: And yet, 56 percent of pregnant women avoid the dentist. So, with those statistics alone, you know, it only makes sense that we need to be treating our oral health ideally before you even start to try and get pregnant because it will help you get pregnant. But, you know, I, I always get questions from patients being like, well, I'm pregnant now, you know, what do I do? Katie: I, I feel like I might have something going on. Well, you absolutely should go to the dentist and get this treated because you want to try and avoid any sort of pregnancy complications and, and again, patients with perio infection gum disease or gingivitis are at much higher risk for, you know, having a complication with their baby. Katie: And we know that if they get perio treatment while pregnant, their medical costs will reduce about 74%. So it's very important for the outcome of the pregnancy for the mom, but also for the outcome of the pregnancy for the baby. Michelle: Wow. That is Katie: the [00:30:00] dentist. Michelle: important. Chinese Katie: I don't get elective care now What I'm what I'm not saying is to go get veneers done. Katie: Like so I don't want people to mishear me I'm saying, you know If you have a gum infection or tooth abscess, you absolutely should go get that treated while you're pregnant All elective care can can wait until after baby's here. Michelle: Such a good point. Interestingly enough, Chinese medicine, the teeth are an expression of the kidneys. Chinese medicine, the kidneys are not what we look at in conventional medicine. The kidneys are actually what houses your reproductive essence and health. So it's so crazy how there is this correlation. Michelle: I see this a lot. I see this quite often, actually, even with, the heart and brain different. Topic, but the heart houses the brain. This is how we're taught in Chinese medicine. And now they're seeing in heart math that there is this correlation between the heart and the brain. And there's a communication between the heart and the brain that it's measured. Michelle: So it's interesting how science is [00:31:00] connecting, you know, you're connecting the dots between what was talked about in Chinese medicine. That may not. Initially makes sense, but then you're seeing in science things that are proving those things. So it's pretty wild that we're coming to this place where it's bridging. Michelle: You're actually seeing the two connecting. Katie: knew about the meridians in the teeth, but I did not know about the kidneys and fertility in teeth. That just like really blew my mind. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting because as a child, you know, when they're, when they're little, you know, their, their body's developing and as they get closer to kind of reproductive years, that's when their real teeth come out. And then as, , the reproductive health declines and they're getting really old, the teeth fall out. Michelle: So it's kind of like this connection to essence. Katie: I just got goosebumps. Michelle: Very fascinating. It's just, the human body is Katie: And it, it's also tied with, with microbiome, right? Like when we're born, our microbiome [00:32:00] is the least diverse. , and the least strong. It's also the strongest, like what you say, in our reproductive year. So I always tell people, you know, when you're in your 20s, and, you know, you're invincible, and you can go out every night, and not get any sleep, and eat whatever you want, and never get sick, that's when your microbiome is the best. Katie: But then also, as you age, our microbiome starts to deplete again, in not only numbers, but also diversity, and then that's when we die. So it's, it's funny how this all Michelle: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? We have these like peaks and then valleys, so it's pretty wild. Katie: that is wild. Michelle: Yeah. So we're like building and then we're kind of sloping and going down. And then also I was curious to know your thoughts about like neem rinse or a tea tree, you know, instead of obviously alcohol, what are your thoughts on Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love neem oil. I actually use neem oil in my hair all over my face, like all the stuff. I think anything that you can do to be more natural is [00:33:00] totally fine. I think the key is, is that patients need to make sure that they are healthy first. A lot of times I'll have people come in and they'll be like, you know, I haven't gone to the dentist in 10 years because I oil pull or I, you know, I use essential oils or rinse with coconut every day, but their mouth is a mess, right? Katie: And they've inflammation everywhere and calculus everywhere and cavities. And so I always tell people is go to the dentist. Get a clean bill of health or if you're not healthy at least have them You know clean you up and get you healthy and then use those tools to maintain yourself over time You know when patients don't floss their teeth they get little clicks Or little nodules of calculus that build up in between their teeth under their gum line. Katie: There's nothing but mechanical debridement that will remove that. And there's no amount of oil pooling in the world that will treat that. And that's what's going to cause gum infection and gum disease. So, you know, if people want to use neem rinses and tea tree and things like that, great. Tea tree is also good for pain. Katie: You know, if someone has a little [00:34:00] ulcer in their mouth, it's great for that. Very antibacterial, neem is great for that, antifungal, all those things. But get clean first, get a clean bill of health, and then use those tools in your toolbox to maintain that bill of health. Michelle: Yeah, definitely. No doubt. I'm every six months we get our teeth cleaned. It's, it's important to actually get it because you feel it. You feel all the calcification and I even have my own little scraper. Sometimes I'll just get in between, in between times. Cause I'm like, I can't wait until the next six months. Michelle: Cause it does, it builds up. And then if you have tea and all kinds of different things, like it just, it's there. Katie: Yeah, so when we have plaque, plaque starts forming on our teeth just a couple hours after we're done brushing. So that's why ideally, if someone can brush three times a day, that's great. At least twice, you know, you'll be okay. But what happens is, once that plaque sits there, it starts to really mature. Katie: And it gets really, it gets harder to remove because the, the extracellular matrices of the bacteria really start to connect and, and strengthen its attachment to the teeth. Then we mix it with the minerals in our [00:35:00] saliva, and then it hardens and it calcifies into calculus or what people know as tartar. Katie: Once it's hardened, you cannot get that off unless you remove it with a scaler or something like that. And so it is important to go in and get it removed. Because, you know, even with a scaler, I do it to scale my teeth all the time. There's places you can't obviously reach, you know, like underneath the gum tissue in between that have to be removed. Katie: And so I actually recommend for people to go in to see their dentist about every three to four months, even if they are healthy. Because we know that bacteria repopulate about every 90 days. , and so in my opinion, six months is too long. Someone like you who's super healthy, you know, probably doesn't need to go in. Katie: But for the vast majority of Americans especially, they should be staying every three to four months for sure. , to prevent disease. You know, we, It's crazy. Cause the six month timeframe came about because of insurance. It, Michelle: No, that's exactly why we do six months. Cause our insurance pays for that. Katie: yes. It was never a medically, , [00:36:00] science based driven Michelle: Isn't that amazing how the Katie: Yeah, it was, it was dictated by insurance and it's only after. You get an irreversible diagnosis of gum disease, which is irreversible Once you have that once you have gum disease, we know you have that bacteria in your heart We know it's in your brain We know it's all over the body But it's only until you get that irreversible diagnosis of gum disease that now your insurance will allow you to go in every every three Months, that's crazy In my mind, why not go every three to four months and prevent an irreversible disease? Michelle: totally, but you know common sense common sense Doesn't always translate into the system Katie: wish we used our brains more. In Michelle: Yeah, that's crazy. So another question I have lastly like this is another thing My mom sent me this video on Facebook of a dentist showing how to properly Brush the teeth. So we typically will just keep going back and forth, but he said, all you have to do is [00:37:00] kind of go from the gums up, gums up to remove the food, because when you're going back and forth, all you're doing is just mixing the bacteria in the same space. Michelle: You're not moving it up. So just wanted to ask you what you thought about that. Katie: Oh, yeah, I mean, you can, you can do that. Sure, it's fine. The, the point of brushing the teeth, you know, what I always tell people is, the saying is brush your teeth, but what we're really saying is brush the gum line. And so, plaques sits on our, two places. One is it sits on our gum line. That's where it starts to accumulate. Katie: Then it also sits on top of the teeth in the little grooves. So to prevent cavities, you want to brush the tops of the teeth to get everything, get all the food out of the grooves of the teeth. But the most important thing, especially to prevent gum inflammation is to brush along the gum line of the teeth. Katie: And the goal of that is to disrupt the biofilm. So sure, if you're brushing up like that's great, you're brushing it away from the gums. But what you really want to do is just do whatever you can to disrupt that biofilm because you're going to spit it out. Once you get the plaque [00:38:00] biofilm disrupted, it's loose. Katie: You're going to spit it out in the sink. You know, I can't even get people to brush twice a day for two minutes, let alone having them do something as technique sensitive as that. So I just tell people angle your toothbrush at 45 degrees. Right at the gum line. Use an electric toothbrush because it'll be gentle. Katie: Don't get a hard, hard or medium bristled toothbrush. Very light pressure. Plaque is so soft. You don't have to use any pressure. You just want to disrupt that biofilm along the gum line. Spit it out. Rinsing afterwards is great. Luff, you know, obviously everyone needs to floss every day. , and then tongue scraping is really important. Michelle: Awesome. This was great information. I'm so happy that I had you on today. So this is just such great information. So for people who want to learn more about you and read your book, how can they find you? Katie: Yeah. So, , they can follow me on Instagram. I'm pretty good at, at, , responding to the DMS on Instagram. , so [00:39:00] katyleedds on Instagram. My website is also katyleedds. I do Salivary testing for fertility patients. And so if someone wants to check their microbiome and see if they have the bacteria that impact, , Fertility, we do saliva tests for them remotely. Katie: , and then my book is called Saved by the Mouth. They can get it off my website or on Amazon. Michelle: Well, Dr. Lee, it was such a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy your mind and picking your brain I just love how well balanced your information is and, and also just, it's priceless. It's so important. Katie: Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity

Website where I found these witnesses: https://popwe.org/category/addiction-deliverance/Katie: So it's Sobriety Awareness Month, and I feel led to share a testimony. My drug of choice was methadone. I thought it was okay because it was prescribed. I got on it to get off opioids but ended up being on it for almost 6 years. So me, and my mother were in addiction together. A very toxic relationship. When the methadone got too expensive, she turned me to meth. I lost everything within two months…On December 31, 2020, me and my mom were going through withdrawals pretty bad so she begged me to find something. I ended up getting some and split it with her and the last words I remember her saying was, “if this doesn't help I'm going to sleep.” Two days later, I called 911 and they rushed her to the hospital and I had to make the hardest decision I ever made. I called and told my sister about my addiction and begged her to take my daughter so she would be happy and safe and I could get help. The hardest thing in my life was watching my baby girl get in that car with all her toys and clothes and drive away.Fast forward to January 4, 2021. I was put in St. Bernard's Behavioral Health and found out over the phone that my mom was on life support and wasn't gonna make it. I would have to sign to remove care. The dope had cut the oxygen off to her brain. I was taken to see her. She had wires in her head, her hand was cold and stiff, her feet were purple and molded. I couldn't stay 15 minutes with her. As soon as I got back to SBBH, they faxed me a paper to sign and on January 6, 2021 they removed care. She took one breath and died. Two days later I went to Restoration House Ministries and not only got sober but encountered God and I've never been the same. September 17th I'll be 17 months clean from the bondage I thought I could never escape. This is so hard for me to share but I pray it opens someone's eyes. I handed my mom her death sentence just for one more high. It ain't worth it. The guilt, shame, self hatred you feel ain't worth it. We do recover and it's through Jesus.“We do recover and it's through Jesus.”Christopher:  I was blessed to see you in Beaumont, Texas recently. I live in a town called Lumberton and my youngest daughter was my plus one that night. We got to be part of the blue couch and the meet and greet. The thing is, it never should have happened because I honestly shouldn't be alive today.For 37 years, I had a severe alcohol problem. I was drinking no less than 2 fifths of vodka a day. I sit here and cry because I can't remember most of the childhood days of my kids. I have 3 daughters and one son that are all grown today. I got to the point that I could drink what is called Everclear (95% alcohol) straight from the bottle. Only by God's grace I don't have any issues or side effects today.The day He turned me around, I had flown into New Orleans, Louisiana for work and landed around 11:00 AM. I bought a bottle of vodka in the airport and finished it before I had walked the 200 feet to the rental car location. At the rental car outlet they told me all they had left for me was a Dodge Challenger called a Hellcat, so I took it. Now here I am in a ridiculously fast car, drunk, and headed for a bad day. I was on the interstate and decided to see how fast this car was. I was driving in excess of 140 MPH and I lost control of the car. It went into a spin. After it came to a stop, I crawled out of the car without a scratch and a voice in my head said, “how much more proof do you need that I have plans for you?”After that I called my wife and poured everything out to her. I was an alcoholic when we got married, so my wife and kids had never seen me sober.
Now, today (4 years later) I have 3 beautiful daughters, 2 grandchildren and a son who is an amazing man and a decorated US Marine. I am an ordained minister and I love nothing more than talking to people about my life. If God could take a wasted case like me and do what He has done, there is nothing we can't overcome with Him.At your recent concert in Beaumont, Texas during the blue couch session I asked you to sing “Broken Things” and you did. You have no idea what that meant to me and my daughter that night. So much of your music centers around how God takes the broken and makes something amazing and you are such an inspiration to me.
Sure, I have tough days and it would be so easy to slip back into those old ways, but then I remember my God uses broken things!“God takes the broken and makes something amazing.”Adrienne:  In 2014, I began praying to God to remove these addictions from me. My life was a mess and all I cared about was my cigarettes and alcohol. God led me to the right resources, and I did manage to quit smoking and drinking (although not at the same time and I experienced some slips.)In 2018, with the help of God and a stop smoking community, I gave up cigarettes for good. Then on June 23rd, 2020, God helped me once again and both my husband and I stopped drinking. The freedom and joy I feel from having both of these substances out of my life is amazing and like nothing I've ever known. The “buzz” I get now from a life well lived is so much better than any buzz I received from cigarettes or alcohol.
I am so incredibly grateful to be free of those chains. If you are struggling with overcoming an addiction, my advice to you is don't give up on yourself and trust God. You may not break free immediately but with patience, perseverance and the love and help of our Savior, you can overcome even the toughest addiction.With God, ALL things are possible!Cindy:  I was molested as a young child. My way of coping was to self harm, which became an addiction for me. If I was stressed, anxious, sad, or mad I would hurt myself. The self harming behaviors escalated to cutting and burning myself. It was something I could control. I decided how often I cut, how deep the cut would be, and how many marks I would make. I believed that my control was stolen from me as a child and this was my way of taking control back. What I needed was to give that control over to God.In 2012, I finally gave God control and surrendered my addiction to Him. I had given my life to Christ as a child, but I finally realized He never intended for me to carry that load all by myself. He didn't need my scars, I needed His.I am so thankful that God placed people in my life who supported me through that difficult time period of healing, but mental illness is still somewhat of a taboo subject. We aren't supposed to show signs of weakness. I'm here today to share His-story for me. I am only here because of God's mercy and grace. I tried multiple times to end my life, but today I try to offer hope to those who are struggling with self harm, depression, and mental illness.
I want to share how great our God is. He can take a misfit like me and use my story to show He can take a mess and turn it into a message. My story isn't over, it's only the beginning.“He can take a mess and turn it into a message.” 

          Welcome to the Aphasia Access Aphasia Conversations Podcast. I'm Katie Strong and I'm a member of the Aphasia Access Podcast Working Group. Aphasia Access strives to provide members with information, inspiration, and ideas that support their aphasia care through a variety of educational materials and resources. I'm today's host for an episode that will feature Dr. Debra Meyerson and Steve Zuckerman. We'll be talking about their bike ride across the country, Stroke Across America, as well as the importance of identity and storytelling in a person's journey with aphasia. Before we get into the conversation, let me tell you a bit about our guests. Debra Meyerson was, until her stroke in 2010, a tenured professor of organizational behavior at Stanford University's School of Education.  Debra's most significant contribution from that period was Tempered Radicals:  How Everyday Leaders Inspire Change at Work (HBS Press, 2001). More recently, she authored  Identity Theft: Rediscovering Ourselves After Stroke (Andrews McMeel Publishing, 2019) and is co-founder and co-chair, with her husband Steve Zuckerman, of Stroke Onward, a nonprofit working to ensure stroke survivors and their supporters have the resources needed to rebuild identities and rewarding lives.    Steve Zuckerman is, along with Debra, co-founder and co-chair of Stroke Onward; he has been Debra's care partner since her stroke in 2010.  He has held leadership roles at Self-Help, a nationally recognized economic justice nonprofit, since 2006 and still serves part time as a Senior Advisor.  Before that, he was a managing director at a private equity firm.      In the summer of 2022, Debra and Steve led Stroke Across America – a 100-day cross country bike ride, from Oregon to Boston, to raise awareness for stroke, aphasia, and the importance of the emotional journey in recovery.   In this episode you will: be inspired learning about the bike ride, Stroke Across America, and its effort to raise awareness about the emotional journal of living with stroke and aphasia. learn about the power of story in reconstructing identity in people living with aphasia. become aware of Stroke Onward's mission to support the emotional journey of rebuilding identities and rewarding lives.   Katie: Welcome Debra and Steve. I'm so happy that you are here with me today. Debra: Thank you so much, Katie. Steve: It's great to be here. Katie: Well, I'm just so excited for our listeners to be able to hear about what you've got going on, and I'd love to start with what you were up to last summer. You did an amazing bike ride across the U.S. called Stroke Across America. Congratulations! I mean it was a big deal! Can you tell us about it? Debra: Sure. Stroke Across America was a bike ride across the US and Canada to raise awareness about stroke, brain injury and aphasia. We wanted to spotlight the emotional journey after stroke. How do we rebuild our identities and live meaningful lives? We rode 4,500 miles over 100 days, traveling from Oregon to Boston. There was a core team of six riders and others who joined us for portions of the ride. We became a family. I didn't expect that. Katie: That's fantastic. Tell me about who rode with you and became family. Steve: As Deb said, we had six core riders most of the way across the country. In addition to the two of us, a woman named Whitney Hardy, who's actually a close family friend. She's a young woman in her thirties who unfortunately suffered a traumatic brain injury about four years after she graduated from college and suffers no ongoing physical disabilities but has some cognitive issues and memory issues. She rode with us from the beginning to the end. Another stroke survivor was Michael Obel-Omia, who I know is an active participant in Aphasia Access. Michael is a stroke survivor who also lives with aphasia. He joined us about 15 days late because his son was graduating from college, so he joined us in Missoula, Montana. We had two wonderful summer interns, Emily and Alex. We met Emily through her grandfather, who was a stroke survivor and hoped to ride with us but didn't end up riding with us. Emily and Alex are both students at Washington University, St. Louis. They traded off, one rode and one worked, every other day. We can't say enough about the wonderful, not just competent and great work they did, but the energy they brought. They really helped make it special. I guess our seventh team member was our then roughly one-and-a-half-year-old golden doodle named Rusty who was along for the ride. Sometimes she rode in a trailer behind our bike and sometimes in one of the support vehicles. We had a group called Bike Eternity, a gentleman named Arlen Hall, who really arranged all the on-road logistics and the route. He and his team were just fabulous in terms of just making everything work. That was our family. Katie: It's quite a crew. Fantastic. I was wondering if you could tell us about a favorite experience from the ride. Debra: We hosted sixteen community events across the country. They brought together survivors, families, friends, stroke care professionals, and more. It was really inspiring to be with all these people. Building community and collaborating with others is the only path to real change. And you were at the Ann Arbor event? Katie: Absolutely. Yeah. My friend Becca and I came down to the Ann Arbor event. I think it was Dexter or something. Debra: Yeah Katie: Boy, did we show you how we can have rain in Michigan! Debra: I know. Oh, yeah. Katie: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it was great. Even though we had rain, there was so much great energy around the event. I can feel what you're talking about. Steve: I think the events were kind of really the most powerful experience. But Deb, you were going to talk about one particular ride you loved. Debra: I loved riding past Cameron Pass in Colorado for 30 miles up and 40 miles down. Katie: Wow! Steve: Yeah, so just to add a little bit to that, because I think that one day of riding really, I mean, every day was fantastic. We just loved the riding. But this one stood out for all of us. It was from a town called Walden in Colorado, a bit east of Fort Collins to a campground called Stove Prairie Landing. The pass we rode over was about 10,276 feet, so we were up there. And as Deb said, we rode up for 30 Miles about 2000 feet, but then got to come down 4000 feet. The whole ride was in a canyon with dramatic mountains and a river that we happened to catch at the right time of the year because the snow was melting. So, it was just a rushing river where we got the sound, the sights, and sometimes the spray of rapids as we're cruising downhill. And then there was just a perfect riverside campground at the end. It was just sort of a magical day. Katie: Yeah. As you were describing it, I wanted to use the word magical! So, I agree. Yeah. Fantastic. I'm sure it wasn't all easy street. I was wondering if you could tell us one of the hardest things about planning such a big activity. I mean, this was a big event. You had several events along the way, but you know, tell us a little bit about the planning. Debra: Organizing this event was so hard, but it was so important and so impactful. We had sixteen events: three events before we started riding in Palo Alto, Bend, and Portland, eleven along the way, and two in Boston after we finished. We had so much to do after the rides and after dinner, such as PR, social media, Stroke Onward, events, and a documentary film. There was so much to do! We are really tired. Steve: Yeah, I think the biking certainly was a lot, but we weren't trying to ride fast. You know, one thing I say about biking is, if you want to ride long distances, you just have to ride long distances. You get used to it. So, that didn't really feel like a strain for us. And the organizing of the route, particularly with the help of Arlen, kind of got done ahead of time. It was a lot of work, but he's a pro and we put it together. But it was really, I guess we're “Type As” who can't get out of our own way. We built so much into the trip that it really was those evenings and our theoretical “rest days,” which were nonriding days. We renamed them “stress days.” We felt like we had to get everything done. So, you know, that was the hardest part of the trip. It was just how much we packed in. We jokingly say, but it may not be a joke, “that someday we want to ride across the country where we have absolutely nothing to do but ride across the country.” That way, we can enjoy the evenings and the rest days, do a little more touristing, and spend time meeting people along the way. Katie: Yeah, it was very focused. You were very intentional about gaining awareness and supporting community. And I'm sure that it sounds like there was lots to do beyond just pedaling. You mentioned earlier about a campground, but I'm curious, where did you stay along the way? Steve: Our main support vehicle was an RV, pulling a trailer with a lot of gear. We organized mostly around staying in campgrounds. Partly to keep the cost down and partly because we didn't want to have to stay rooted to where the hotels and motels were. And so, Deb and I got the privilege of sleeping in the RV. It was a small RV, but very comfortable. And the rest of the group was camping, so we had tents and cots, and all you would need for relatively comfortable camping. About one or two nights a week, we would end up staying in a motel, partly just to give the folks who are camping a little bit of a break. We actually came to enjoy the RV so much; we almost preferred it to the hotels. Then, one of the real highlights of the trip was we were able to see a lot of friends going across the country. Particularly in the cities where we held events. We almost, with maybe one exception, always had a rest day connected to the event. Probably at about half of those we ended up staying with friends. That was really special to be able to involve more people in our lives in the journey. Katie: Yeah, I was thinking when you were in Ann Arbor. Deb, you had a number of colleagues and friends that came to the Dexter event. Debra: Yes, in Detroit, two days later, we met with my middle school buddies, Debbie and Debbie and Debbie. Katie: I love that, fantastic! That's great! Well, riding across the country is a huge endeavor. What made you decide to do it? Debra: Steve. Steve: Deb would say, “Steve made me decide to do it.” Well, actually, it is true. I had a close friend from college who rode across the country right after we graduated from college. From that day, I always said, “that's something I want to do”. As I got older and older and hadn't done it, it was kind of rising to the top of the proverbial bucket list. But cycling really has been a huge part of our recovery from Deb's stroke. It has been the best way that we can continue to do a lot of the things we love - exercise, adventuring, seeing new places, and spending time with friends. We had never ridden a tandem before Deb's stroke, we rode individual bikes. It was a bit of a challenge for Deb to give up control, understandably. But when we saw the opportunity to do it with a purpose, that's what kind of got us really excited. We were just starting to build Stroke Onward, we wanted to build awareness for the importance of the emotional journey, and events create good opportunities to attract attention. So, what better thing than to do something you've always wanted to do and do it with a purpose? That's kind of how we got going. Katie: Well, it is inspirational, and I know a big focus of the trip was to raise awareness about stroke and aphasia. Debra, for people who might not know, could you share a little bit about your life story. Debra: Of course. My life story started earlier. In 2010, I was a professor at Stanford. I studied, taught, and wrote about feminism, diversity, and identity. Then, I had a severe stroke. For three years, I did therapy almost full time. I had to get my old life back, but I couldn't. My disabilities, especially aphasia, forced me to leave my job at Stanford. Giving up tenure was like a second punch in the gut. It was a huge trauma on top of my stroke trauma that started my identity crisis. Who am I now? Katie: So, Debra, I think that's what sparked you writing a book called Identity Theft. Can you tell us a little more about that? Debra: I had written two books before my stroke. I decided to write another book after my stroke, Identity Theft. Writing Identity Theft became my learning journey. It has helped me rebuild my identity. It took me five years, and I learned to accept lots of help. No one told me rebuilding identity is so central to recovery. I learned firsthand that it's so important. While researching Identity Theft, I learned that other survivors think so too. They had no advice and support for this.  Steve: Maybe I'll add. Deb mentioned doing research for Identity Theft. From the very beginning when Deb decided to write a book, she didn't just want to write about her story. She was an academic, she wanted to bring in other people's points of view. And so, Deb interviewed twenty-five other survivors and probably another thirty-five people who were care partners, friends, families, and professional caregivers. Kind of the idea being that she wanted to be able to write about a diversity of people and stroke experiences because that would make the book more relatable and more accessible to more people. And that really kind of gets at one of the things that really struck me about Deb writing Identity Theft. In many ways, the writing of the book really reflected her personal journey. That at the beginning, she was kind of writing it to prove she could, she didn't want to let go of that identity as an academic. But very quickly, she realized that the process of writing it, as Deb said, was kind of her journey. She was able to turn her knowledge of identity and the lens on herself to really help rebuild her identity and her life. But along the way, she realized, “Man, there are so many other people out there who aren't being told about this and need resources.” I say this all the time, choosing to write a book when you have aphasia has got to be one of the bravest decisions because it puts you face to face with your frustrating disability every day. And there were a few times when Deb came downstairs and said, “I'm done,” “I'm not finishing the book,” “This is too frustrating,” and “I can't stand it”. But it was that knowledge that it could help other people that got her to push through that frustration. And that gets to kind of one of the big themes of our work, which is about finding purpose and having purpose and how that's often our biggest motivator in life, what we can give. So, that's kind of a little bit of the history of the book. Katie: I appreciate you sharing that. And as you were both talking, you were talking about this journey. And you know, thinking about the story and the writing and the rewriting of your identity. It really isn't about the product, not necessarily the book, which maybe initially that's what you were interested in Deb. But really, the journey is where all the work and the reintegration of who you are and who you're going to be is. very powerful. Very powerful. It's such a great read. I've enjoyed the book very much. So, you have even moved forward beyond a book, and you've started a nonprofit. It's been established for a little bit now. Can you tell us about your nonprofit, Stroke Onward? Debra: Yes. I created it three, no, four years ago? Our mission is to ensure stroke survivors and their supporters have those tools necessary to rebuild identities and rewarding lives. The vision is a stroke system of care that fully supports every survivor's emotional journey and recovery. Steve: Maybe I'll add. I think, clearly, the issues of critical care and helping people survive a stroke, and then all the work on rehabilitation is critical. What we saw is that a lot of people don't get all their capabilities back. It's almost like, well, if recovery means rehabilitation, then does that mean everybody who doesn't fully recover their capabilities, has a failed recovery? And we were just unwilling to accept that. Recovery had to mean more than just capabilities. That's why we decided to really focus on that next step in recovery, which is the emotional journey. So, we really think about our work around three areas. One is raising awareness, just that this whole issue of the emotional journey is really important and doesn't get enough attention. Even if people realize it's important and say, “Well, gosh, where can I get help with this?” There aren't enough resources out there. You know, at the end of the day, as Deb said, “it's about system change.” That we would hope that 10 years from now, a person who suffers a stroke and their family enters a system that not only provides good critical care and points them in the direction of good rehab, but also creates a framework and resources for this part of recovery, for the emotional journey. I won't go through all the actual things we do. Hopefully, you'll be able to post the website and people can go and see more about stroke onward, www.strokeonward.org, easy to remember. Katie: Absolutely.  Debra: And there's the book discussion guides. Steve: Yeah, well, one of the places in that the speech therapy community has been so supportive and such a wonderful partner is with the creation of our book discussion guides. Our colleague, Jodi Kravitz, led the creation so that the book can be more accessible. There's a guide, you know, with the idea being a group of people with aphasia can read the book together and have a facilitated discussion with a guide. But also, we created separate guides for families, speech therapists, and other health care workers. Just again, the whole idea of trying to make the material accessible, digestible, and useful for people who are going through what we went through, which was the identity crisis and having to rebuild our lives. Katie: Absolutely, we use the resources for our local book club here at Central Michigan University and our Lansing Area Aphasia Support Group. The materials were great, but the book just brought forth so much rich discussion. Debra: Yeah. Katie: You know, not all of it was easy to read. There is some tough stuff; you don't skirt the issues. I think it really was a very meaningful experience for our members and the students that were a part of the group to be able to hear the journey, to hear what maybe hadn't been addressed, to hear how people had moved forward with things, and the areas where we really do need to be thinking more about as healthcare providers. It is important that we can support the whole person and not just fix the physical or the language. It's a whole emotional journey that you're moving forward with, which in Stroke Onward is really important. Well, as you know, a lot of my work is about the importance of storytelling. Deb, I was wondering if you could talk about how storytelling impacts your work. Maybe even share a few stories from your work. Debra: Sure. Storytelling is so important. We are always changing, and our stories evolve over time. Storytelling helps us navigate the emotional journey after a stroke. And in my book, Identity Theft, I share my story and the stories of others so that survivors don't feel alone. I would like to share one story that helped me recognize that life could be good after my stroke. Seven months after my stroke, my friend Ann invited me to her 50th birthday weekend in Palm Springs with tennis, hiking, talking, and biking. I said, “No...no, no, no.” I would need so much help, and most of all, I could barely talk at all. Conversations would be loud and lively. I would feel frustrated, jealous, and sad. Kim, my friend, said she would help with everything. She said she would help me have fun. She was there for me. I was nervous, but I decided to give it a try. At first, I was determined to be the “old Deb” at the party, but the frustrations were constant. Conversations were too fast, and the friends trying to help did not give me time to find the words. I was frustrated constantly, but I decided to enjoy myself anyway. The night of the birthday party, I danced a lot! Great music, so fun. I was not the “old Deb” anymore, I was a newer version of myself. I could spend my time with my friends dancing, laughing, and enjoying what is essential in my life: friends, community, and fun. It is so hard, but it is so important. Pushing myself to be social and telling stories about it has been so important to my recovery. Katie: Thanks for sharing, it's a great story. And well, I mean, you sound like you have fabulous friends, but it sounds like Kim really was one that stuck around and was willing to help you through some of that change. Steve: And if I can add one other story, which kind of gets to how Deb reclaimed some of her old identity. In this case, her identity as a mom, and Deb tells the story in the book. When our daughter Sarah, who at the time of Deb's stroke was 15 and was not a big dater in high school. But about a year and a half after Deb's stroke, she got invited to the prom her senior year and she started going out with this guy. And I kind of said to Deb, you know, you never had that mother daughter talk with Sarah. And Deb hadn't been too active in parenting for that year, year and a half because she was you know, fighting for her recovery. I said, “You know, maybe you should be the one, as her mom, to have the talk.” And so, we kind of told Sarah that we wanted to talk to her. We were all standing around the island in the kitchen. Sarah kind of knew something was coming but didn't quite know what. And you know Deb's speech was nothing like as good as it is now back then. You could just see the concentration on her face trying to figure out what she was going to say. And she kind of slowly said, “Boyfriend? Yes. Pregnant, no!” And that has been dubbed by all of our friends for the world's most efficient and effective mother daughter talk. It was funny; we all just burst out laughing. It was really a great kind of wake up for us that Deb could reclaim a lot of aspects of her identity, but she would just have to live them out differently. And that just because they had to be different didn't mean she couldn't live them out. That was one of our favorites. Katie: That is a good story. What I love about your sharing of the stories and where your work brings storytelling to life. One of the things that's happening in the literature that's coming into practice, particularly in the UK, and over in Australia, and hopefully maybe over here in the U.S. sometime, is this idea of step psychological care for aphasia. We'll put something in the show notes if listeners want to check this out a little bit more. This idea consists of different tiers to support mental health and particularly depression in people with stroke and aphasia. At that bottom tier, which is supposed to be accessible to every stroke survivor, one of the level one interventions is storytelling. So, it's that powerful, you know. It's not just fun to tell stories; it's very important to who we are as people and integrating our mental and emotional health into who we are. Steve: Deb, did you want to mention somebody you interviewed for the book that particularly talked about storytelling? Debra: Yes. Randy enjoys storytelling, and he is a stroke survivor from St. Louis who I interviewed for the book. Randy and his wife, Rose, started their own aphasia meetup group. Social connections were really important to him. Steve: And he talked a lot about how he gradually got more and more comfortable telling his story and how much that helped him. He spoke at our community event in St. Louis, and I thought he kind of stole the show when he said, “My stroke changed my life, but it will not hold me back.” I just kind of well up because that's what it's all about. And he said it so eloquently. Katie: Powerful, powerful. Well, Debra, can you tell us a little more about this idea of identity? Debra: Sure. Barbara Shadden and you, Katie Strong, I am so thankful. Identity is our narrative about ourselves over time. We have not one static identity, we have multiple identities. We are always changing. Relationships like friends, family, colleagues, and others are a big part of making who we are. Identity is a choice. Instead of asking, “Who am I now?” ask “Who do I want to be now?”. Katie: Powerful. I like it. Debra, could you talk about aphasia specifically, and how that plays into your views on identity and your recovery? Debra: Yeah. Communication is so central to everything we do and to my identity. Having communication challenges just makes everything harder. Steve: And I'll just add that sometimes in recovery, the physical stuff, you know, trying to walk better or get use of a right arm back, would tend to be the focus. But in reality, the aphasia is really the thing that has challenged her identity the most because it was the communication that forced her from a career she worked so hard to achieve. Also, friends and interaction are so central to who Deb is, and that has just gotten so much more challenging. So, not to diminish the impact of physical disabilities, but aphasia is big and really central to the recovery process. Katie: And I think you know, you mentioned Barbara Shadden earlier, but you know her idea of identity theft. We are the stories that we tell and when we have trouble with the that one thing that we use for story, that tool of language that is impaired, or changed or broken, or, you know, smaller, or however we want to view it with having aphasia, it really makes a significant impact on how you view yourself and how you can connect with other people that are important to you. Debra: Yeah. I agree completely, and I am so lucky to have friends and family to support me. Steve: And I think what you said, Katie, is so powerful, and it's why we talk a lot about how few people really know and understand what aphasia is. I think that's because there's this, whatever the opposite of a virtual cycle is, it's the doom loop cycle of aphasia. Aphasia impacts people's identity so that they don't want to speak if they have aphasia because it's not consistent with who they think they are. But because people don't want to speak with aphasia, nobody knows what it is. And so that, you know, makes it that much harder to speak with aphasia. And I think, you know, that gets to this notion of purpose sometimes driving people through what's hard and what's uncomfortable. That was true for Deb and played a role in making a decision that “Yeah, I really wish I could speak the same way I used to.” We've had so many arguments about Deb saying, “I was terrible," because she was evaluating her speaking performance against the way she would have done it before her stroke. Yet, Deb's been willing to push through that, to be out there. You know, that's part of our work of trying to network with other people and encourage people to get out there and tell their stories because that's the only way the world is going to learn. Katie: And that you're doing, which is so appreciated and inspirational. Steve, I know your work is as much about supporting care partners and other family members as it is about supporting survivors. Can you share a bit about your journey through all of this? Steve: Oof, it feels like that could be a podcast in and of itself. But you know, I think maybe the nugget that I'll share is it's pretty obvious that people who are close to somebody who has a stroke or aphasia, our lives are going to change. Things we used to do; we can't do. Help we didn't used to have to provide, we do have to provide. I think the real “aha” for me personally, was that I needed to focus on my identity change as well. It wasn't just Deb's identity. And for me personally, and I've talked to a lot of care partners about this, really embracing “care partner” as part of my identity. Not just something I had to do to support Deb, but part of who I now am. This was really important to me because that mind shift actually helped me resent some of the changes in my life less. It was just, like Deb said, our identities change, our lives change, this is just another change. If I can embrace that as a change in who I am, then those just become part of life. Not that they're not frustrating sometimes, but it's a lot better. So I think, you know, Sarah, our daughter, is when you talk about the impact on family. And again, this story is in the book as well. But again, not just the impact on her life, but the impact on her and who she was. About two years after Deb's stroke, she gave a talk to her whole school community. Sarah talked about the experience of watching her mom have a stroke, and how she wanted to be like her mother and be strong and tough it out. People were offering to help, and she said “No.” She was going to soccer practice, she was doing all of her assignments, and she was visiting Deb in the hospital; she was going to tough it out because she wanted to be strong. Then, she started to see Deb accept more help and she started wondering, well, maybe I can accept some help. She started to let her friends in and let herself be vulnerable. She kind of realized that real strength isn't about toughing it out, real strength is about being vulnerable and using your relationships. Sarah's an athlete, and she ended the talk with, “Even the world's strongest person needs a spotter.” I well up just telling the story. When she told it, we went through boxes of tissues. But that changed her as a person in ways that actually, you know, maybe she would have gotten there eventually, but not when she was 17. I think that's what we talked to a lot of the families and care partners about. Allow yourself to think about how this experience can change you as a person and try to embrace some of that change where you can. Katie: Powerful. Debra: And the families, Danny, Adam, and Sarah. The families are affected. Katie: Yeah. Aphasia just doesn't happen to the person who has it. Well, Deb, you mentioned that there is one part in your book that sums up a lot of what you were trying to share with other survivors and their families. Maybe we can end with you reading from that paragraph. Deb: Faced with a trauma like stroke, the opportunities for both challenge and growth are great. We can clarify what we value most in life, set goals that will help us meet them, and achieve repeated small wins in pursuit of them. In this way, we can achieve not just recovery, but satisfying growth and fundamental meanings in our lives. Katie: I love it. Yeah. Challenge and adversity, thinking forward into the future, and having goals, purpose, and meaning. It's what life is about. Well, this has just been a fabulous conversation. Thank you both for taking time to share with us a little bit about what you've been up to over the summer and inspire us with some of your stories. Debra: Thank you. Steve: Thank you. Well, that wraps up this episode. Thank you for listening. For references and resources mentioned in today's show, please see our show notes. They're available on our website, www.aphasiaaccess.org. There you can also become a member of our organization, browse our growing library of materials, and find out about the Aphasia Access Academy. If you have an idea for a future podcast episode, email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org. For Aphasia Access Conversations, I'm Katie Strong. Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.   Information about Stroke Onward   https://strokeonward.org/  Stroke Onward website Instagram Facebook Twitter YouTube Identity Theft Book Club Materials developed by Jodi Kravitz, Ellen Bernstein-Ellis, Liz Hoover and Stroke Onward https://strokeonward.org/bookguides/   Resources Related to Identity and Aphasia   Meyerson, D., E., (2003). Tempered Radicals: How Everyday Leaders Inspire Change at Work. Boston, MA: Harvard Business School Press. Meyerson, D. & Zuckerman, D. (2019). Identity theft: Rediscovering Ourselves After Stroke. Andrews McMeel Publishing. www.identitytheftbook.org Shadden, B. (2005). Aphasia as identity theft: Theory and practice. Aphasiology, 19(3-5), 211-223. https://doi.org/10.1080/02687930444000697 Strong, K., & Shadden, B. (2020). The power of story in identity renegotiation: Clinical approaches to supporting persons living with aphasia. Perspectives of the ASHA Special Interest Groups. https://doi.org/10.1044/2019_PERSP-19-00145 Listen to Episode #5 of Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast featuring a conversation between Katie Strong and Barbara Shadden about the important role story has in supporting identity in people who are impacted by living with aphasia. https://aphasiaaccess.libsyn.com/insights-and-aha-moments-about-aphasia-care-with-professor-emeriti-barbara-shadden   Resources Related to Stepped Psychological Care Listen to Episode #34 of Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast featuring a conversation between Jerry Hoepner and Ian Kneebone about stepped psychological care and other research related to supporting the emotional journey of living with stroke and aphasia. https://aphasiaaccess.libsyn.com/34-in-conversation-with-ian-keebone Kneebone, I. I. (2016). A framework to support Cognitive Behavior Therapy for emotional disorder after stroke. Cognitive and Behavioral Practice, 23(1), 99-109. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cbpra.2015.02.001 Ryan, B., Worrall, L., Sekhon, J., Baker, C., Carragher, M., Bohan, J., Power, E., Rose, M., Simmons-Mackie, N., Togher, L., & Kneebone, I. (2020). Time to step up: A call for the speech pathology profession to utilise stepped psychological care for people with aphasia post stroke. In K. H. Meredith & G. N. Yeates (Eds.), Psychotherapy and aphasia: Interventions for emotional wellbeing and relationships (pp. 1-16). Routledge.    Acknowledgements – A special thank you to Amanda Zalucki and Emma Keilen from the Strong Story Lab at Central Michigan University for their assistance in the transcription of this episode. Cite as: Bertram, M., Isaksen, J., Toft, L. E., Olsen, A. M., & Breckling, M. (2021). Evaluering af projekt Forløb for borgere med afasi samt afrapportering af implementeringsopfølgningen KomTil – fra udvikling til drift. Unpublished report from University of Southern Denmark.

Alright folks, here it is! The final episode of Season 1 of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast (keep an eye out for Season 2 in the new year!) - and we're ending with a bang! This week I'm chatting to Katie Greenall, theatre maker, writer, and performer of the award-winning autobiographical solo show ‘Fatty Fat Fat'. We speak all about Embodiment and disconnection from our body, and discuss how we can handle a funky body image day. They also give us the inside scoop on their upcoming show ‘Blubber'.Find out more about Katie here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here's the transcript in full:Katie: I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass-shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat, queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.INTRO:Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter.Today I'm sharing the last episode of Season One of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. I'll be back in January with ten brand-new episodes with some incredible guests. And in the meantime you can follow along on the Can I Have Another Snack? Substack where I'm gonna be sharing some really cool features over the holiday period including my emo kid Christmas playlist, an anti-diet gift guide, and some guest holiday pieces from Kristen Scher and Virgie Tovar. You're not going to want to miss them, they're seriously great and I can't wait to share them with you. So make sure that you're signed up to receive those posts at laurathomas.substack.comAlright team, I am so pumped to introduce you to today's guest. Katie Greenall is someone whose work I've followed for a long time, and I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation.For those of you who don't know Katie, they are a facilitator, theatre maker and writer living in London. She makes autobiographical work that often explores fatness, queerness, and community alongside making work with young people and communities across London. Previously, Katie performed her award-winning autobiographical solo show, Fatty, Fat, Fat and is currently developing their new show Blubber, which we're gonna talk about in this episode. We're also gonna talk about embodiment and feeling disconnected from our bodies, and how Katie handles a funky body image day. Before we get to Katie, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely reader-supported. We don't have sponsors or do adverts or anything like that. I don't make money from affiliate links. I'm not trying to sell you anything that you don't need. All I ask is that if you value the space and the community that we're building, then please consider becoming a paid subscriber.Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Yes, you get perks and bonuses and all of that great stuff. But more than that, you make this work sustainable and accessible for everyone. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's unaffordable for you just now, please email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with the word snacks in the subject line, and we will hook you up with a comp subscription. No questions asked. Also consider gifting a subscription to one of your pals this holiday season, or getting someone to gift it to you. Alright, team, let's get to our last guest of the season, Katie Greenall.MAIN EPISODE:Laura: All right, Katie, can you tell us who or what you are nourishing right now?Katie: I love this question. I would like to think that especially this week, I am nourishing myself. I am really trying to form some new habits this week. I've had a bit of a, I'd say a few big few months of lots of different things, particularly work-wise. And so this week I'm really focusing on building some new habits and just like getting my shit together a little bit.And so, I've really been finding that really nourishing for me. Uh, so I would say top of the list, I'm nourishing myself. That isn't usually the case. That's usually, if I'm being really honest and reflective, that self and nourishment is usually much further down. But I'm really kind of stepping into that this week, which is why having this conversation with you feels like really beautifully timed because, um, yeah, I genuinely for the first time in a long time feel like I'm doing some nourishing of myself.Laura: It sounds like that's kind of unfamiliar to you.Katie: Hmm. Yeah.Laura: I guess I have two questions on that. Like one is what, you know, what is difficult about that for you usually, secondly, you know, what is that, that self nourishment looking like for you at the moment.Katie: I think it's difficult for a number of reasons. It's difficult because, one, I work a lot, um, So a big part of my job is facilitating and holding space for other people. Um, predominantly that's working with young people in different theater settings. Like I run lots of young companies, I work in schools, or with other, in other community settings.So like my literal job is holding space for other people, um, maybe similarly to yourself, uh, or in a, kinda, in a very different way. But that idea of, of a big part of what I do is holding and hopefully nourishing other people, nourishing artists or, um, yeah, like young people, to be able to achieve what they want to achieve, to access new skills and stuff like that.And so often when I get that, a lot of that work happens in evenings and at weekends. And so just stuff like eating meals and going to bed and having any sense of routine, which is something that is really important to me, just gets pushed further and further and down the list. And the more, you know, it was just definitely not revolutionary, but like the more tired you get, the more you feel like you're, it's harder and harder to keep hold of any of those things. So that's one thing. I think secondly is that I've been taught I shouldn't be taking care of myself. That like I, that me and my fat body don't deserve care. And sometimes that is really hard to challenge. Sometimes it's really hard to have the extra energy or capacity to be like, Oh, not only am I gonna give myself the care or the nourishment, Which I think is such a beautiful word, but not, not only am I going to do that, but I'm also, that takes energy in itself. I also have to take the next level of energy, which is to do that in spite of a structure that is trying to stop me from doing that. And so it's really hard and I've spent a long time knowing that, now I've come to realise, understand more about fat liberation and the capitalist structure and diet culture and all of those things, the more I've realised I can't and don't want to go back to having, having those thought cycles. Sometimes I don't have the power or the capacity or the strength to, to challenge them. And so I exist in this sort of no man's land instead. And so yeah, it feels really nice to be able to have the capacity, and time and resource to be able to kind of apply that nourishment to to myself.Laura: Yeah, that's a really, um, there's something quite striking in what you've just said, you know, and I think a lot of us experience this from time to time, like intellectually understanding that we are being oppressed by systems that, you know, that don't care about our lives or don't care about our wellbeing, that only find value in us if we are producing and conforming and looking a certain way and et cetera, et cetera. And, and, and, you know, wanting to, you know, placing value in rejecting those systems. And also there's still being a huge barrier to overcome to access self care, to access self nourishment, to care for ourselves and, and sort of, I don't know, I'm just imagining this kind of liminal space, this no man's land that you were talking about, and I find that a lot of us probably feel stuck in that place quite often.Katie: Yeah, because there's a real resistance, like I'm, I'm resistant to regressing into this, this space that I, you know, I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.Laura: Yeah.Katie: I'd have glimmers of it and then be like, but it was so hard to hold onto, and I thought the only way that I could hold onto them more was, was to not be fat anymore.Laura: Yeah.Katie: And so I just, I utterly refute. I completely resist, going back to thinking like that. And so I would much rather sit in this no man's land space. But that being said, it's really difficult and it's meant that I have felt increasingly disconnected to my body in a way because I am reframing it as something that like, doesn't define my existence, or doesn't define my ability to achieve happiness or success or love or any of those things. The multitude of those. But I can't always work out how to achieve them. And so it's really challenging. And so it's felt like it's easier to sort of build some space between me and my body, rather than live that under fear of going back to a place that I don't wanna.Laura: Yeah. So many little, little threads that I want to tug on there. I suppose what I'm thinking about is just this, like the energy required to subvert the system and just say, No, I'm out When still existing and living within those structures, within the, those confines and, and all of the, you know, I suppose what we're talking to is this idea that yes, we can cognitively understand anti-fat bias or racism or capitalism or whatever structure that we're, we're naming, which they're all the same thing really. Let, let's face it, um, that, that, that is the issue, but still not, you know, we still need resources to be able to survive in those systems. And, you know, if we, you know, the less access we have to those resources, the harder our lives are. And so, you know, we can yeah, label something as anti-fat bias, but it still doesn't stop the system from, you know, perpetrating anti-fat bias whenever we need to go to the doctor or buy clothes or fly in an airplane or just, you know, walk down the street.Katie: And I think, you know, there is also a huge privilege in being able to decide when or when I do or don't want to engage with my body. And obviously sometimes I don't have a choice, um, often when then someone else enters my space and, um, Kind of those micro-aggressions or macro-aggressions, either from other people or structure, whether that's like societal structure or like the physical parameters of my space i.e. When I can't help but feel an arm of the chair digging into my side. Like, there are sometimes where I can't help but be faced with that. But I think, you know, it is a privilege to be able in my day to day life, to the moments when I can, to be able to choose whether or not I want to engage with my, with those things each, each day.And I, and I don't take that for granted. I don't necessarily find it easy, but I, I don't, I don't take those for granted. And that was because I am white and, middle class and, not disabled, and, and multitude of other things. But, um, it's really difficult and I guess when I'm making work about my body, I'm opting in to engage with it. And think that's probably why making work about my body is so important to me because I think it's a way for me to opt in and to also in like, to a great extent. I mean, it could definitely be better, but like I've also been paid to do it um, you know, I'm being paid for the labor of, of opting in to engage with those things, as I say, not a lot. And certainly I'm not being paid for every moment that I'm like going through that. But that's why I think it's really important when I'm making work about my body that, that I do make work about my body because otherwise, I, I wonder how much of my life I would just not, not feel embodied.Laura: But it, it's, it's so interesting, like I, I was just thinking as you were talking here about this idea of, you know, no man's land, being in this liminal space with your body and, like it sounds as though for you disconnection, disembodiment is, is a choice almost. And, or maybe that's not quite the right way of, of framing it, cuz I think that's maybe too simplistic a way to describe it. But really what I'm trying to get at is that oftentimes disembodiment and, uh, disconnection, dissociation are, are labeled or framed as this really negative really, you know, maladaptive is the, the word that we would use like in in the body image lingo, right? Like from an academic perspective, Right. But what I'm hearing from you is that it's a survival mechanism. It's a coping mechanism.Katie: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, I think about choice is really interesting. Cause like I definitely don't think it's active choice. I don't get off each day and go, or each week and go like, I'm choosing toLaura: Disembody. Yeah. Yeah.Katie: Um, there's clearly something is, like something within me is making that choice or something that's happening to me.But yeah, it's a hundred percent a survival technique but it's not necessarily one I'm ashamed of. I think I'm, most days I am proud of my fat body and I'm proud that I'm surviving in it. I am proud that I am still fat in spite of it all, that I'm honouring what my body needs and how it wants to exist in this moment. And I will like, whatever it is that I have to do in order to maintain that in a way that like, makes it make sense for me is something that, I'm not going lean away from. And I, and I think I begin to touch on this a bit in, in the show that I'm in the process of making at the moment, Blubber, which is like, I think towards the end of the process of making my last show Fatty, Fat, Fat, I was saying the same thing, you know, as is the nature of things when you perform something a lot or you talk about something a lot or, repeat yourself a lot. I was taking up the same space over and over again, or having the same conversations with journalists or audiences. But I was saying all the right things, but I wasn't, I wasn't connecting to them in the same way. And that's what this show, what Blubber's kind of came rooted in, is finding a way to try and feel more embodied, um, trying to feel more connected to a body that I've, that I'm proud to exist in, I think. And I'm proud to, to nourish and I'm proud to take care of, and I'm proud that still exists. And so it feels, I really want to feel connected to it. In a tangible way. Laura: I just wanna take a step back for a second for people who maybe aren't familiar with your previous show, Fatty, Fat, Fat, could you maybe just like give a just a very quick synopsis and then just so we can contextualise this conversation versus what you were talking about in that show.Katie: Totally. So, Fatty Fat Fat was my first solo autobiographical show. I started making it in 2018 after I just graduated from drama school. Kind of came out of, uh, frustration that lots of people in big bodies who work in the kind of entertainment, theatre, performing arts industry come against, which is like, I wasn't fat enough in inverted commas to be the fat girl in inverted commas um, or thin enough to be the normal girl in inverted commas. And so sort of, there was no castings, there was no jobs, there was, I was the fat, funny friend, etc, etc. And so it came out of, of a want to make work, but not seeing myself or stories or people like me really, um, reflected or, or being cast for. So Fatty Fat Fat was a show based on a series of anecdotes from my life where my relationship with my body changed because of other people's interactions with it.So they span from the age of 5 to 22. And they were micro-aggressions, um, generally either from family, friends or strangers that kind of, yeah, informed my relationship with my body and those were intersected with more kind of poetic movement moments that were rooted in where I was at in that process, present day. And also some kind of interactive moments that were talking about the wider fat liberation and fat acceptance movement. It was my coming out as being fat, I'd never called myself fat before I made that show. It was very much fat activism 1 0 1, and it's, you know, doesn't take away from my pride in that show. But it was time to leave it behind and, and Blubber really picks up from there.Laura: And I wanted to, so I, yeah, I just thought it would be helpful to give that kind of background what that show was versus this, this new show where it, it feels like a, Yeah, like you said before, trying to feel more connected to your body whilst, as we described before, living in systems that want that, you know, benefit from you being disconnected and disembodied. So I'm curious to know and I, I wonder if this kind of connects into this question of, of nourishment that we were talking about at the beginning and, and finding ways to nourish yourself, and that even in and of itself, being subversive as a fat person. What does embodiment mean to you? What does it look like? What does it feel like? You know, like, like we said before, sometimes it's held up as being this, this gold standard way of being in your body. Right? But I don't know that that's necessarily always true, and, and so I'm, I'm curious to hear from you. Yeah. Just tell me all your thoughts on embodiment.Katie: On embodiment. I think the short answer is I don't know what embodiment looks like to me. I think what I'm trying to work out, um, is the shortest and simplest answer. I think that embodiment can look like lots of things. So there is a version of embodiment for me that is being on stage right, I am acutely aware of everything that me and my body are doing that, especially as a solo performer that it is, I'm responsible for everything that's happening in this space. I'm like, whatever I do or say is queuing the next light or sound. I'm having a relationship to the audience. Yeah, they might be looking around the room, but like they've paid money to be there, to be there and watch me, or listen, and so like those moments, I am aware of everything. Like you learn, and like actors training about like this duality, you have to have a sort of outward eye but also an inward eye. So like which is where like, you know, practices like method acting and stuff like that become where you are like fully character all the time become a little dangerous.Um, and so yeah, my training is very much thinking about like, and what I kind of continue to pass on when I'm working with other artists is like working both ways. So, Yes, I'm saying the lines and I'm in my character, but also I'm inside, I'm thinking, Oh, am I connecting to my diaphragm? Can someone hear me? Someone's just dropped a prop over there and I need to make sure I move that out of the way before the big dance number, or whatever it is. You've got to have this duality. And so there's something about embodiment in that moment where you're like, I need to be aware not only of everything that's happening to me, around me, but also what's happening inside of me. And, and I'm really responsible for, for that. And obviously I have team that I definitely couldn't do without the team that work alongside me. But in those moments, you know, you couldn't, can't help but feel embodied. And so for me, that's why live performance is so important rather than working in film or TV or recorded media is, is because that aliveness makes me feel alive in a way that I don't necessarily know how to replicate in other, in other spaces, which comes with other things because it also is terrifying, incredibly anxiety inducing and complicated. And so it's not just as easy as standing up and being like, Here we go. But there are moments of that where you kind, when you're able to move through the fear, and you're not doing the show for the first time or something. You're like, I'm here, I'm feeling this, I'm doing this, and we're doing it together And that feels exciting.Laura: There's something, I mean, I've, I've seen both shows and there is something very like visceral and immersive about your performances. Like you're in this relationship with the audience, you're having this dialogue, this conversation with them, and I think, yeah, the word that you used, was it like, did you say vital? Vitality?Katie: Yeah.Laura: Yeah. You can perceive that from sitting in the audience. So yeah, I can, I can see how that, that that is a moment of, of connection and that's something that I took from Blubber. We were kind of talking about this off mic before that, and, and I don't know that this is necessarily how you were framing things, but, but it's certainly how I interpreted the show was that there is not this big like crescendo moment where you like, make peace with your body and then it's just like, you know, happily ever after, from, from there on out, that there was this real sense of, of moments of joy and comfort and connection in our bodies. And I'm gonna ask you about one of them in just a second. But, um, yeah, like that they were just kind of like peppered all over the place. Almost if we, we go back to that analogy that you used before, where you moved from that no man's land, where your body just kind of almost doesn't exist in a, in a way to being fully immersed and in your body and connected to it in this really positive and vital way.Katie: Yeah, I think that's such a lovely way of putting it. And, and the show doesn't crescendo in the same way. We, we spent a long time thinking about that in development we were like, Oh, where does the crescendo happen? Cause when I initially wrote it, it had about four ones rather than big one. And I think, um, It's a separate conversation to be had about like Western storytelling and what we, what that's, where that's rooted in and, and, and why we feel we need that and blah, blah, blah. That is for a separate, a separate conversation. But I really hear you. And the show has those kind of pockets of, of joy and reflection in amongst stuff that's really knotty and difficult. I think there's something for me in, Fatty Fat Fat ends with the line, I want my body back. Right? And so I sort of imagine that Blubber picks up going, Okay, here you go, imagining someone is going, All right, well there you are, here's the keys, what are you gonna do about it? Like, what happens now? And, and I think that's why this conversation about knowing's life is really pertinent to me because it's like, cool, if someone puts me in the driver's seat of my own body, do I even know where the pedals are anymore? I really know what all the buttons do? Do I know what feels good or what doesn't? Like okay, so yeah, I've got the keys, but how do I take control? How do I drive on the open road with all, Like, how do I make it feel like convertible, uh, with my, you know, the sea air in my hair? Singing to a song. Like driving isn't like that. You might get pockets of that, but other times you're stuck in a traffic jam or you can't start, or you need maintenance, or it's just like you're using it from, gets from A to B. Laura: Yeah,Katie: And I, and I think Blubber is a little bit about reflecting on my body as a vehicle and the times where it works and it feels like it's mine and it feels like I'm in it and I'm, I'm driving it. And other times where it feels like I'm, I'm still learning what it can do and, and what feels safe and, and all of those things sit within the structure of whether or not they're possible or impossible, or I'm allowed in inverted commas or not allowed or, you know, all of those things then have a context that sits around them.Laura: I think it's so important to speak to the messiness, the stickiness, how complicated it is to have a body, because I feel otherwise we, we fall into the trap of presenting binaries around our bodies, like either love your body and always be completely grateful. You know, I've spoken a lot on this series in particular around having a baby and how we're presented with these that very either or options of like, well be grateful cuz your body did this miraculous thing. Right? Or, change your body and get it, you know, get your pre-baby body back or, you know, so these really, like, I want more options than that to, to feel about my body. And I want to have those moments of joy and connection and comfort in my body. And I also want to scream when I'm having those really difficult days in my body and feeling the, the clout of all of those systems that, that really crush us in a metaphorical sense.Katie: Yeah, totally. And I, and I think, I thought for a long time, particularly with Fatty Fat Fat and maybe less so with Blubber, but I think it's, if anything, it's just got deeper, is that like I thought I couldn't make a show about fatness until I was, until I loved my body, until I'd reached that absolute nirvana, um, and I was completely at peace and could run around naked and do a back flip and everyone see all my, you know warts and all and I'd be like, Oh, I don't care. And I thought I couldn't make a show about fatness until I'd felt like that, because I thought it was either where I was currently at or that space and there was nowhere in between.And it was when I kind of realised that there could be some spectrum of that that, that I realised that kind of allowed me to get myself permission to make, to make the work. And, and if anything, Blubber has just got deeper and messier in the complexities of that. And it's really difficult.And I remember we had a time in, uh, the development of the show earlier in the year, in January. We were doing some movement work and I felt really challenged by something and got quite emotional after we'd just done an exercise in the room and we were reflecting on it. And, and I remember sort of sharing with the team that like, I just felt really ugly, I felt like my body didn't look nice and I was having, you know, I'm making something, you know, It was an exercise. It was, it was nothing, like, we were just trying something out and, and I, and I suddenly became really aware of like, why did that find so difficult? Because I, I was like, Oh, Cause I'm, I'm emphasising things that I, that I don't want to, or I'm, I'm feeling, I'm feeling the, the ugliness of, of my body, not because it's fat, just because I'm putting myself in weird positions.I'm screwing myself up. I'm, I'm folding all my chins in, all in on themselves. And like, and like some, some days that stuff doesn't bother you. But like in that moment I was just like, it's all very well, like sharing a lot of yourself with an audience, but then sharing something with a room full of strangers that like is not a version of yourself that you would show it, you would want to show anyone. How, how do we hold those things? How do we hold that messiness and ugliness that we all hold, but in my body it means something so different. And me sharing that and giving that to you means something really different. And that was a really useful learning for me and just being like, Oh, that is a limit. I mean, we've always thought about that whenever we've been making work, but like there is a limit of things that, that I'm comfortable doing without putting myself in danger.Laura: Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. There's so much to think about there. And I suppose as, as you were talking about all of those parts of yourself that we're taught to conceal and hide and push down, and as, all I was thinking about is just this idea that those are all things that we've been taught to feel shame about.Shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. If your body looks, you know, if you have double chins or triple chins or you know, if, if, if you don't, you know, if you turn side on and you have a belly or all of these things, we only ever see these like flat one dimensional representations of bodies that have been, you know, through layers and layers and layers of modification that it's so shocking, it's so shocking to see a real body. In all three dimensions to taking up space. And that shouldn't be shocking, but what I'm hearing you say is that there's something really, really unsafe about, you know, putting your body in those positions.Katie: Because I think there's still stuff that I'm unlearning about, like palatable fatness and being, you know, there's so many people that have said it, you know, say it far more articulately than I will or can about like the, you know, good fatties and bad fatties and how we can navigate the cultures that exist and the, and the barriers in society by demonstrating that we can be feminine or beautiful or graceful or healthy or educated or whatever it is in order to kind of overcompensate, for this like big glaringly obvious thing, which is my fat body and or, or fat bodies generally. And I think there was something that I learned in that moment about like how, how deeply that goes still. And, you know, I don't mind making a fool of myself. I don't mind showing bits of myself in a way that maybe you know, 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago, I might have had more of a challenge with. I don't mind exposing myself. There's some video content in the show, which is like really zoomed in, uh, bits of my body where you see like my bitten fingernails or my, I've got lovely skin, I'm very lucky, but I always get a series of spots underneath one, my right. You know, it's just like, and those things are blown up really big for an audience to make it, you know, because my whole, to show my whole body can be a universe, right? And I don't think a version of me before that, before would've been able to cope with that.And there are things that I'm, that I'm willing to find the imperfections now. I'm willing to share those with the audience. But I'm, I think there is something about like, you know, that initially Blubber came from this idea of wanting to feel beautiful. I don't think I've ever felt beautiful. I still don't.And I think I wanted to make a beautiful show so that some people would watch it and be like, Wow, you are beautiful because you made beautiful work. I've, I've been lots of other things. I am lots of other things, but that's just not something I don't that word specifically I don't think I've ever felt that sensation.And so there was something in that moment of being like, I can be, I can not be that. I can be somewhere in the middle. I can go below the middle two. But I, like, I don't want to show all my deepest insecurities, difficulties, no matter how much I'm learning or challenging or understanding why I feel that way about myself.But like no wants to share the worst stuff with an audience. And I don't think it's fair to an audience either.Laura: I'm, I'm feeling quite emotional listening to you talk particularly about that, that sort of sequence that was projected up onto kind of this like really ethereal netty curtainy sort of situation because like I sitting in the audience found that completely breathtaking. That and the part where there's a lot of kind of like red light projected on you and it felt sort of like you were being held in this like womb. I don't know if that was the vibe you were going for.Katie: Yeah, definitely womb like, because it's, that's sort of inside the body of a whale, so um, womb, internal, all of that sort of stuff. Definitely.Laura: Yeah. Both of those things. Just, um, I don't know. There was something about that. Both of them felt very, very vulnerable, but there was something, so, I don't know that beautiful is the right word, because that feels kind of like that trivialises what it was.Katie: And I think that's why the show is less about beauty now because, I think as we went on it, like actually what it was, was about feeling. And I think as someone that's been socialised as a woman, I've been taught that beauty is the ultimate goal. And or the antidote to my fatness. And like, like so many, people who live in fat bodies, I was, you know, told a lot growing up, you would be so beautiful if you weren't fat. And like, I, again, we don't, there's a not unique experiences and, and there's so many conversations that are, have been had and are being had about like, you know, beautiful being be able to coexist with fatness. And I, and I look at, I, I feel so lucky and grateful that I look at fat bodies, other people's fat bodies now, and I, and I think they are beautiful. But I never felt that in myself and, and really and in reflection, I think it's because I want to feel sensation. And I think it goes back to our previous conversation about embodiment and disembodiment, is I felt like I just wasn't feeling anything either in or around my body or within my body because I was like, feeling was such a big part of who I was. Feeling huge emotions is such a big part of me, particularly being an artist. And I think I was just like making so much space between me and my body that I wasn't feeling any of those things. And so it wasn't really about beauty, it was about feeling held or feeling something monumental or extraordinary or new or astonishing or even awful or trying or terrifying. But like between the onslaught of news, a pandemic, government crisis, a you know, everything else on top of experiencing the world in a, in a marginalised body that intersects different marginalisations, but obviously not all of them. You just, at some point there becomes a disconnect. And so, yeah, I really hear what you're saying about those things and I, and I see and agree with you. And so I think that's why the show wasn't about beauty anymore. It was about sensation, like just being able to feel and connect with something on my body.Laura: Yeah. And, and, and I suppose what you're naming there is also dissociation disconnection. That can be really powerful, really useful. I mean, life saving survivals tools. And they have a cost. They come with this, this huge price, which is, you know, not being able to sense or feel or emote these, you know, these things that you know, to, to bring it back again to embodiment are really vital to you, you know, to feeling that aliveness, that connectedness, that humanness.Katie: Totally. And also to go back to your kind of your first question, nourishment, because it also meant that I wasn't nourishing my body, um, because I was so disconnected from it or disembodied that I wasn't feeding it properly, I wasn't nourishing it in the things it consumed in the media, wasn't nourishing it in, in loads of different ways because, because I wasn't connected enough with it to be able to empathise or to be able to understand what, what it needed. And so I think these things are all, all so connected. Because without that, without that embodiment, it's really hard to make offers of meaningful nourishment. I can kind of know to go to bed or know to eat some toast, but like, or know not to spend 10 hours on TikTok. sometimes, I mean all of those things also their placeLaura: But, But yeah, all of those things can like spending 10 hours on TikTok can be nourishing sometimes when you need But I think what you're speaking to is like the fine tuning of that. And knowing when, Yeah, it's 10 hours in TikTok versus, No, actually I need to like get outside or talk to a, another humanKatie: Or go to sleep. Do you know what I mean? Like, know when to say no. Know what my boundaries are. I've been really thinking about something that, Candice Brathwaite said online, in some point in the last few months about like, laziness and idleness and I think as a fat person you are told you are lazy and I've been called lazy as long as I can remember. And so I'm doing a lot of work at the moment with myself about what are things that I truly believe and what are things that I am thinking, what are things truly exist and what things have I been told? And cuz sometimes they are the, like, those things kind can coexist.And so there's the thing about laziness, I'm thinking at the moment. Cause I do think I'm naturally quite a lazy person. Like I could, I could easily sit on a sofa and, and not move for, for days. I, that's fine. Like I'm, I'm into it. I'm not, I'm not mad at, But part of me's like, is that true or is that just because I've been told that that's true.And I, and I'm something that Candice has said recently online was like about how, um, sometimes the best way to take care of yourself is, is to challenge those instincts.Laura: Mm.Katie: Actually for me, some of the best ways I used to take care of myself, and I'm still trying to work out what that looks like in present day, was kind of before pandemic, um, before 2020, cause the pandemic's still happening. But, um, before 2020 anyway of like, some of the best ways I used to take care of myself was actually saying yes and going out and doing things rather than saying no and staying in.Laura: Mm-hmm.Katie: Because I have chronic FOMO and I love being busy, I love getting my en you know, I get my energy from other people.I love living my life like that. And so there's a version of me now that's like, oh, is that still true? Or do I need to actually stay home and take care of myself or eat, not, you know, go to bed early or whatever, Or am I being lazy? And I, I, I'm really trying to connect with what is true about me. Um, and that's something I'm finding really difficult at the moment, but, I'm really trying to engage with, and I think, again, links to lots of things we've been talking about.Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. And I love, I love that kind of distinction that you made. Like is this something, what, Tell me again what it was. Is this something I'm thinking?Katie: Is this something I'm thinking I've been told or is true?Laura: Yes. Okay. Yeah, and I think that that's such a, a helpful way of, of reframing some of those, those thoughts and beliefs that come to our mind. And I have, I have such a visceral reaction to the word lazy because I like firmly believe that that is just a social construct designed to make us feel bad about rest.Well, on that note, the last question that I had for you, and, you know, given all of the complexities, um, you know, and the, the stuff that you're kind of really in process of, of figuring out at the moment, I would love to know who or what is nourishing you right now?Katie: First of all, my housemate has bought me a really delicious pan aux raisin from the coffee shop up the road, and it is sitting in a paper bag behind the door.Laura: It's waiting for you,Katie: behind meLaura: Your stomach, grumbling stomach knows it's there, it's ready.Katie: That is the thing that is about to nourish me and, um, and she is just, um, being proud of that. I think, the things are nourishing me is routine, trying to find structure and routine in my life.That's something that's really nourishing me at the moment. Something that is also nourishing me is really leaning into my deep love and interest in the Real Housewives, um, That is something that's deeply nourishing me at the moment. And being able to talk in depth with friends about that is really nourishing parts of me that I didn't know I needed.Laura: Okay. And you will not be surprised to learn that this is not the first time that this, that this has come up podcast this season.Katie: Wow.Laura: So I talked to Clara Nosek, aka Your Dietician BFF. Had a great conversation. Highly recommend go back and listening to that. And her, the thing that's nourishing her right now is reality tv, but very specifically Housewives,Katie: Great. So I'm a big reality fan, reality TV fan, but particularly Housewives. So, I could, like, even now, just the thought of being able about it, especially in a public forum is like really make me froth at the mouth. Um, some young people I work with, was working with, uh, like as the sort of present for the end of the project, they very sweetly got me a seal cuddly toy with some like gold hoop earrings and they um, called it the Real Housewife of Shepherd's Bush, which is where we were working together. So, yeah, that's something that's really nourishing me right now. Finding these pockets of sunlight. Um, hopefully if you are, if and when you're listening to this, you might be able to find one of those too, but I dunno, it seems like from behind you, you've got a lovely bit of sunshine, your side.But yeah, there's some beautiful kind of sunlight pouring into my windows and I've got this sort of glitter ball Laura: Is that what it is?Katie: globe.Laura: Oh, okay. I've seen these little like,Katie: Pockets, Yeah. There's, so every now and then my living room, um, if the light is at the right angle, makes these sort of spots of light appear. And so all of those things feel really nourishing, I think for one of the first times in my recent life, like my work isn't nourishing me, uh, at the moment and like I'm looking to other things to hold that with me, and I think that's really exciting.That doesn't mean. It's not satisfying or it's not, not doing what it needs to do or like, it just means it's not the sole focus of that, where that nourishment is coming from. And I feel really excited by the prospect of that and that feels quite new. And finally, I've got a, I'm going to see all being well, I'm going to see, um, Adele in Las Vegas next March. AndLaura: There was like a wry smile, and I was like, I'm desperate to know what it is.Katie: So currently all roads lead to Vegas and that is deeply nourishing me, cuz it's like the end of the winter. It just feels, it's not so far away that it feels impossible, but it feels tangible, but enough time to get excited. So like that is also something me. So like,Laura: focused, you're focused on getting there.Katie: so there's, there's a real mix and I think variety is a spice of life. You know, I'm a freelancer. I'm, although I've just said all that stuff about routine and structure, like, I feel excited when I'm bouncing around and doing multiple different things. And so, trying to find that balance, um, feels exciting and, hopefully nourishing as well.Laura: It's that, I don't know if this like speaks to your experience, but like I've seen a lot of people online and it like resonates with me as well. Like talk about that neurodivergent urge towards chaos, but needing routine and structure like the routine and structure being really helpful and useful, but being the exact opposite thing, like also feeling like suffocating at the same time.Katie: Absolutely.Laura: All right. Before we finish up this episode, I would love to know what you're snacking on. So it can be a literal snack if you want, although we've covered off the pan raises end, so check that box. But it can be a book, a podcast, a movie, a person, anything. So can you share what you're snacking on right now?Katie: I am snacking on, Oh, there's so many things I could say. I had something in mind but I'm changing my mind. I am snacking on, I'm really trying to, I'm gonna go for like a literal thing I'm snacking on.Laura: Go on.Katie: And I'm really reaching back into, um, like childhood foods, the foods that maybe I didn't have growing up or, thought I couldn't. And, and so I'm really leaning into like the cheese string, the fruit winder, the penguin, the Frosty cereal bar. Those are my, like ones of choice, but also, Primula, the cheeseLaura: My God. Yeah. Yeah.Katie: on Ritz crackers.Laura: my God. Love RitzKatie: That is, that is like a real peak school time snack that we used to have at, like, at the end of term.And so, yeah, it's, those are the things I'm stacking on at the moment, just like really trying to find that joy in those little snacks again. Those are the things that I'm loving.Laura: so funny you say that cause I was just in Scotland last week and my friend and I bought a pick and mix and I do not remember the last time I bought a pick and mix and I was just like, chomping on these cola bottles, like the sour sweets. It was amazing. So yeah, I'm right there with you with the like, nostalgic, nostalgic foods.Okay, so my thing is a book, I'm like halfway through reading it, which I'm always a bit like, can I really recommend a book when I'm not completely finished it? But like, I think I know enough to know that it's worth reading. And this is someone that I'm really hoping will come on the podcast next season, but, so the book is called Small Fires. And it's by Rebecca May Johnson. And she is the co-editor of Vittles, which is a great Substack. I really struggle to describe what it's about because basically throughout the course of the book, she cooks the same recipe over a thousand times. And she talks about, she talks about cooking and food through this, like political lens is kind of the only way that I can think, or like I can describe it. But she's talking about appetite and she's talking about how kind of, in the same way that you were talking about that, like duality between the artist and the audience.She's talking about like this sort of reciprocal relationship between a recipe and the person that's cooking it and the food, and it's just such a, like, mind blowing way to think about food and cooking and it's just really cool. I, you just need to read it. Maybe I'll link to like, about review in the show notes, but Yeah, so it's called Small Fires by Rebecca May Johnson and it's just like, it would make a great Christmas present for someone.So yeah, that's my snack. All right, Katie, tell us, tell the audience where they can find out more about you and your work.Katie: so you can find out more about me and my work on, um, my Instagram or Twitter, which is @katie_greenall on both, um, or my website, which is www.katiegreenall.com. Those are the best ways to find me.Laura: Perfect. And I will obviously link to all of that in the show notes. And yeah, I have really, really enjoyed this conversation. It's felt really nourishing. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how Blubber sort of evolves in the direction that you take it in. And as soon as you know when and where that's gonna be, I will be sharing about it and let the audience know where they can come and see that show.So, thank you so much for being here and being so candid and honest about your relationship with your body, your relationship with food, and yeah, just all the things that you've been thinking about. It's been really a great conversation. So thank you.Katie: It's been a joy. Thank you so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura Thomas: Thank you for listening to Season 1 of Can I Have Another Snack? If you've enjoyed these conversations, then please rate and review in iTunes and share these episodes with your friends. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This season wouldn't be possible without your support so thank you for being here and valuing my work and I will catch you in January, when we'll be back with a whole host of really cool guests exploring appetites, bodies, and identity. Talk to you then. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

“It was just the most amazing experience. I have never felt so strong.”Meet Katie, the newest member of The VBAC Link team! You will be in awe after hearing about her 39-hour HBAC journey (not including a week of prodromal labor!). Find out how Katie was able to bounce back after being told she was complete, pushed for hours, then learned she was actually only at 7 centimeters. You will also hear what chiropractic care did for her after 30+ hours of active labor. Katie followed her intuition to pursue her HBAC and worked hard during pregnancy to make sure that she was mentally strong during labor. Little did she know about the sheer exhaustion she would have to endure, but that preparation made all the difference.Additional linksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Blog: Home Birth After C-SectionThe VBAC Link Blog: Chiropractic CareFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, Women of Strength. We are so excited to be back with you today. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have a special story for you. Obviously, all of our stories are amazing and special, but if you haven't seen on our social media yet, we have a new team member on The VBAC Link team and she is Katie. Her name is Katie and she is going to be sharing her HBAC story with you today. If you didn't know, she started in August and has been killing it. So grateful for her. She has been helping me with emails, social media, and all the things so you may run into her if you are writing on Instagram or anything like that. You may run into her messaging. Just tell her hello and give her a squeeze because you guys, she is amazing. Head over to her post on the Instagram page. Learn more about her and say hello that way as well. So yeah, we are going to dive into this story. Review of the WeekBut of course, we have a review. You guys, we are running down on reviews, so we need your reviews. If you would not mind, send us your reviews. You can give them to us on Apple Podcasts. You can do it on Google or Spotify. I think just google.com. On Facebook, you can message us and you can Instagram us. We love your reviews and we would love to read them. We have so many amazing stories coming up to finish out 2022 which is crazy to even think about that. It's August right now at the time that I'm recording and we have almost everybody booked up for 2022. We have amazing stories, I will promise you that. But send us a review and maybe your review will just be read next on the podcast. This review says, “Must have for all pregnant women.” I love that because definitely, this is something we want to portray out there. Yes, VBAC is specific to vaginal birth after Cesarean, however, this podcast really applies to so many people out there who are just wanting to have a baby. Ways to avoid a Cesarean, ways to find good care, good providers, all of the things. So I would 100% agree with that. Must have for all pregnant women. It says, “Prepping for my VBAC in August” which is right now. “I found this podcast and it has been so inspiring. Hearing facts from experienced doulas and successful VBAC mamas has given me the confidence I didn't know was possible. I now feel comfortable talking to my OB as well as my family and friends about why I want to VBAC and feel informed of all the risks. I also love hearing the CBAC stories so I will be ready to find healing however my next birth plays out. Thank you for all you do.” This is from Emily and that just gave me the chills because exactly. We want to prep for all things, all scenarios, all situations. So definitely listen to the CBAC stories. You guys, they are still so beautiful. A vaginal birth doesn't always have to be for everyone too. Some people just choose a scheduled CBAC and that is okay too. So we love, Emily, that you are listening to all of the stories and that you are loving it. So it's August, and if you haven't had your baby yet, we are sending you the love and if you have and you are listening, send us a message. We'd love to know how it went. Katie's storyMeagan: All right, Katie. How are you doing? Are you excited? I'm excited. Katie: I'm so excited. So happy to be here, Meagan. Thanks for having me on the show. Meagan: Oh my gosh, absolutely. We couldn't not have you on the show. Thanks for being with us and with The VBAC Link. I'm not kidding. You are a saving grace. Every day, I feel so confident that everything is just going to be okay because you are in my life. Katie: Oh my gosh, you are so sweet. Thank you. But seriously, I love Meagan. I love The VBAC Link, so it's such an honor for me to work with you and work with The VBAC Link. It's so special. Meagan: Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I would love to turn the time over to you to share your journeys. Katie: Yes, I would love to. I just want to say that this is a special story for me especially because Meagan was such a big part of my journey. And all of you listeners, I just have to say that Meagan is as amazing as she seems. She is so wonderful. When we were living in Utah, I met with several different doulas and I loved them all. I knew them personally because I'm a doula as well and for some reason, I just felt like Meagan was my girl. She just helped me so much in my journey, so I am so grateful for you and it's fun that you were there with me. So you can remember everything I don't. Meagan: I will never forget it. I will never forget your birth. It was absolutely incredible and I'm so excited to hear you tell the full story in your words because obviously, I experienced it from my point of view, but I'm so excited to hear it from you. Katie: Oh thanks. I'm excited too. So I'll just start off with my C-section. My first son, whose name is Ellison, was born in 2019. He was born via C-section. I ended up having low amniotic fluid. I went in. I think I was 38 + 5 days or something for my appointment. He had low amniotic fluid. I was with a midwife group in Utah, a midwife hospital group, and she was just saying, “Oh, that's super low.” I was measuring low and she had me go in for an ultrasound. They saw. They checked the pockets of amniotic fluid and I can't remember what mine was but it was actually really low. It was probably 2 or 3 or something and so she was like, “Oh man. You have to have your baby right now.” I was a doula and so I did know things like this could come up. I felt like I knew how to counteract things like this because I really was hoping not to get induced and have to go that whole route, but it was really hard being the mom in this situation. I didn't have a doula. I hadn't hired a doula. So being the mom, I was feeling really scared and like, “Oh my gosh. This is my first baby. What should I do?” I was trying to research it and it just kind of felt like we needed to go in for the induction. So anyway, we had an induction. My baby wasn't tolerating the induction and I think it was probably 18 hours into labor or something. Actually, pretty much right when we started the induction, it seemed like things were going downhill. He just wasn't ready. His heart rate kept decreasing. We were having some scary signs. We did end up having a C-section and that was really devastating for me. Especially looking back, I feel like the induction was not necessary at all. I feel like the C-section maybe was necessary, but it was caused because of the induction. Meagan: Mhmm. Katie: Learning more about it and talking to the midwife that I had for my second baby, she was like, “Yeah, it seems like there are some things that you could have tried first or some things you could have done.” It's hard looking back and knowing that there were some things that were maybe still in my power that I could have changed for my experience, but it's okay. I've processed it and it was unfortunate, but it ended up being okay. I've healed from that. But then it was really stressful and just anxiety-inducing for me knowing that I would have to have a VBAC. I just didn't even imagine that that would be in the cards for me. I got all of the VBAC resources and I joined The VBAC Link. I knew Meagan and Julie just in passing, networking as doulas and stuff. Yeah, so I was planning for a VBAC and I did all of the things to prep for it. I would say that I mostly prepped mentally for my VBAC. I know how hard it can be to give birth generally, but especially with a VBAC, it just plays with your mind so much more. I was originally planning on doing a birthing center and I think it was maybe my first trimester, maybe into my second, when I decided to do a home birth. My husband and I hired Meagan. We felt really good about Meagan. We felt really great about our midwife that we decided to go with, so we were feeling really, really excited for my HBAC. I had prodromal labor for about, I think it was six days before I went into actual labor. That was just a nightmare. Anyone who has experienced prodromal labor knows how horrible it is. I just kept thinking, “This is the night. This is the night,” but it wasn't. It was just going on all night long. I was exhausted. I couldn't sleep. One of the days, my midwife suggested that I pump a little bit on and off during the day to see if that would kickstart my body into labor. That didn't work. It just made it worse. So anyway, I was already exhausted, but I was also hoping. I've heard so many women say that when they have prodromal labor, their labor goes quickly. So in my mind, I was like, “You know what? This is going to be okay. I'm laboring a lot right now and maybe I won't have to do it later.” In my mind, I had an idea that my labor would be kind of fast. I felt prepped and I was just giving myself that affirmation that it was just going to be quick and that it was going to be a strong, powerful, quick labor. That was not the case at all. I went into labor. I started having consistent contractions on my due date which was kind of fun. It was probably around 10:00 or 11:00 p.m. that night. They started out milder, but I definitely noticed them. My husband and I went to dinner. We dropped our son off at my parents' house. We were just going to go on a due-date date. We went out to dinner and I remember I was just so exhausted. I was having mild contractions, I really didn't think anything of it at this point because it had just been so regular. It had been happening so much. We got home and I got into bed and I remember thinking, “Okay. This feels different. I think this might be it,” because I hadn't started my prodromal. It usually started around 2:00 a.m., but this was around 11:00 p.m., so I was like, “Oh, maybe this is it.”I did start having stronger contractions. I think it was 11:00 p.m. that night. I labored through the night. I couldn't sleep because they were so strong. I was laboring on my birth ball. I got in the tub. I did different positions and stuff, but I couldn't be in bed because they were painful enough for me not to be in bed. The next morning, my husband woke up and I was like, “Hey, I think this is it. I've been up all night and they've been–” They were mild to strong. I think that night, they started getting around 4-5 minutes apart and they were staying like that. So then I woke up and I was doing all of the things. I called my midwife and I was like, “Hey, this is what's happening.”  I think I had told Meagan the night before, “Hey, I'm having contractions like this, so get some sleep if you can.” So I called my midwife and she was like, “Just let me know how it goes. I'll come by this afternoon,” kind of thing. It seemed like it was still early labor-ish. They did feel strong, but it seemed like they were going from 4-5 minutes apart to 6-7 minutes apart, so we were just trying to keep it going. My midwife ended up coming over. I think it was around– my midwife came over around 4:00 p.m. to check me because I was telling her, “They are getting a lot stronger, more consistent. I think I'm ready to get checked and see where I'm at.” So she came over and I was dilated to 3 centimeters, 0 station. I remember being so excited because, with my first baby, I hadn't been dilated at all. I mean, he was a little bit early and I was being induced, so I was dilated to a 0. I didn't have many expectations or hopes, but 3 felt very exciting to me. I was like, “That's okay. We can work with a 3. We can keep going with a 3.”So I felt very excited. I kept switching between rest positions and upright positions. We would go on a walk and bounce on the birth ball, and then I would try to do some side-lying or laying in the bath or something like that and switched back and forth. I was pretty tired at that point. Then my contractions started getting stronger and closer together. I called Meagan and she came over. I think that was around 10:00 p.m. or 11:00 p.m. They felt really strong at that point. As a doula, I was like, “You know what? I've been laboring for so long. I know the process of what labor normally looks like.” So in my mind, I was like, “I probably don't have too much longer. I've probably been in active labor for a couple of hours or something.” So I set in my mind, “I can do this for a little bit longer. I'm okay.” But I was really tired and they had been getting really strong. Meagan was there and I remember she did a bunch of rebozo stuff on me. My contractions were weirdly really strong, and then I would randomly have a couple of smaller contractions. We were wondering if baby was in a wonky position or something. That night, it was 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. probably and I was having so much pelvic pressure. I was shaking. I was throwing up. I remember just being in bed and it was so intense. I had Meagan and my husband doing counterpressure.The funny this is that my husband had surgery on his pec. Meagan: Oh gosh, I know. Katie: A week and a half before my due date or something, he tore his pec at the gym and then had surgery. I was like, “You've got to be kidding me. Why did this happen right before our HBAC that we planned?” That was stressful to me and I felt so bad for Meagan because I knew she would have to pick up a lot of the slack because he was in a full sling and a cast. Meagan: He was. Katie: He was hardly even moving. He wasn't supposed to lift anything, so that was a rough situation for us. Meagan was doing so much with the counterpressure and the physical labor. So we were all tired. Anyway, they were doing counterpressure and I was side-lying. I was throwing up. In my mind, I was like, “Yes. This is awesome. I'm throwing up.” I think I had around that point, I had someone call my mom and my sister. I had three sisters who were coming over and were hanging out in the front room. My mom was there. I was wanting them to be a part of it as much as they were wanting to be. We were all waiting. I don't know about you, Meagan. I don't know if I've actually ever talked to you about it, but I think around that time, I was convinced that I was in transition because I was showing so many of the signs. Meagan: You were. Katie: So in my mind, I was like, “This is awesome. I've been laboring for long enough. I'm shaking. I'm throwing up,” and it was getting me kind of excited thinking about it. I was thinking that I was getting really close. So yeah, then I was just like, “Okay, let's wait it out and let things keep progressing.” An hour later, things still hadn't been progressing. It seemed like it was still the same. I was completely exhausted at this point. I had been in labor for a really long time. A full day, a full night. It had been 24 hours at that point. We were just trying to decide, “Should I rest right now? How far along am I? Should I just rest and conserve my energy because I still have a while to go or should I get up and move and try to keep this thing going?”I decided to have my midwife check me and I told her I did not want to know. It felt so important to me that I did not know what progress I made or what my dilation was just because it is such a mind game. Especially for me, I knew it would mess with me so much to know the dilation and to do the math that doesn't really add up between dilating, so I really didn't want to know. She checked me and I remember her being pretty stoic. She didn't really say anything, kind of walked out. But then it was the worst feeling ever because she went into the other room and was talking to my mom and my sisters. My mom and my sisters were planning on being in the long haul until I had the baby, but I think everyone was assuming it would be sooner rather than later. But then my mom and my sisters were like, “Okay, Katie. We are going to head home and go to sleep. We will be back in a little bit.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I didn't know what I was at, but I knew that it was bad enough that people were leaving the house. I remember just being so devastated. Meagan: They went to go get lunch, right?Katie: No, it was 2:00 a.m.Meagan: Oh, she went out to sleep. She went out to sleep. Katie: Yes. So Melissa, my midwife, went to her van to sleep. My mom and my sisters went back home. They live close.Meagan: Yep, yep. Katie: Meagan and my husband were with me and I was just like, “Are you kidding me? Everyone knows that I'm not going to have my baby soon?” So I didn't know it at that point, but I later found out that I was still a 3. Still 0 station. I was a little bit more effaced. I barely made any progress and it had been almost 12 hours since she checked me the first time the day before. I'm so glad that I did not find out because I don't even know what that would have done to me and to my mental game. I don't know if I could have come back from something like that. I was so upset by it already and I remember I was just crying and just like, “Oh my gosh. I can tell that it's bad.”Meagan came up and hugged me and was being so nice. She was like, “Katie, it's okay to cry. It's okay. You are so strong. You can get through this.” It was exactly what I needed to hear, so I just had the little pity party for a second and it was just probably the lowest moment for me in my labor. I had a pity party for a little bit and I was like, “Okay, well I guess I'm just going to try to sleep as much as I can and keep resting because I probably have a long way to go.” I labored in bed and I was in the shower and on the birth ball. My midwife came back in and she was being so nice. She was massaging me and Meagan was doing counterpressure because my poor husband couldn't do anything. They were working really hard and my husband was standing next to me and sleeping next to me. He was there with me the entire time which was so special.That entire night was rough. I can't even remember it honestly. It was so exhausting. I was so tired, my contractions were so strong, and I still had a lot of pelvic pressure. I just couldn't believe that I was not very far in my mind, so that was really upsetting. I think it was the next morning, I think, around 9:00 a.m. I was going to have my midwife check me again because again, we were just like, “What's our plan? Do we need to keep sleeping? Should we get up and move around?” It was morning. I remember I had been laboring in the bath for a while and the sun was coming up and I was just out of it. I was so tired and everyone was like, “Okay Katie. It's morning. It's best to get up and live your life during the day. We're not going to be sleeping anymore. We need to have a baby soon,” kind of thing. Not that they were pressuring me but they were just like, “Let's keep this going. We can't just keep laying in the bath this whole time.” She checked me at 9:00 a.m. She checked me not during a contraction, I believe, so she was like, “Oh my gosh. I can stretch you to a 10. You are +1 station.” We were just over the moon so excited. My husband and I went into our bedroom and we just cried and cried. My midwife was like, “Hey Katie, I think it's time to start pushing. Let's give you a minute to gather your strength. We're going to start pushing.” We were so excited. I started pushing on the birthing stool. That was going on for maybe an hour, an hour and a half, or something like that. We started pumping just because weirdly, my contractions just didn't get– they were strong, but it was just on and off. They were 3-4 minutes apart, and then 5-6 minutes apart. They never really made a clear pattern which was kind of weird. I was pumping and trying to stimulate my nipples so my contractions would get stronger and I'd be able to push the baby out quickly. We were doing that for a while. I wasn't making progress. We could tell that baby wasn't really coming or that nothing was really changing. We were kind of like, “Hmm, what's happening?” My midwife checked me during a contraction and she was like, “Shoot, Katie. You don't want to hear this right now.” She was like, “I think you're going to kick me actually, but I think you're only at a 7.” I don't really even know. I'm not sure what happened. I think it had something to do with how she checked me not during a contraction so things were a little more loose and open, and then she checked me the second time during the contraction, so it was tighter and baby wasn't ready to come and I wasn't open. Is that right, Meagan?Meagan: Yeah, and I'm wondering too exhaustion-wise. Your body was needing rest. Katie: Yes. Totally. I had been in labor for probably 32 hours at that point.Meagan: Forever. Katie: Or something.Meagan: Yeah and not even just that, but prodromal before too. I'm trying to remember if it was more that your body just needed rest. And also, the position of the pelvis. Katie: Yes. Meagan: But yeah. It was such a bummer. It was a bummer. Katie: Yeah, it was just the worst news ever. It was so hard to go from 10 and pushing, I did it, I can do this for a couple more hours, and then she was like, “You're at a 7.” I was like, “No.”Meagan: Yeah, and we weren't sure if it was any swelling maybe. Maybe you were pushing prematurely. It felt like 10, then with the swelling. I don't know. Yeah.Katie: It was a strange, unfortunate situation. Meagan: I know. I wanted to cry for you because I was watching you kill it and then to hear that, that's just hard. That's just hard. Katie: Yes. It was pretty devastating. For some reason, I felt strong mentally at that point. I was just like, “Okay, a 7. We can work with that. That's great. I've seen people go from a 7 to a 10 in 20 minutes. I've seen them go from 7 to 10 in an hour. I'm getting closer than I was.” So we kind of had a pow-wow. We talked about it. My midwife was like, “How are you feeling? Are you doing okay? Are you coping? I don't want to push you into anything.” She was super nice and gave me the autonomy to decide what I wanted to do. She was like, “We can break your water if you are wanting to move things along.” I decided, it just felt in my mind that I still had more to give. I was just like, “I think I'll know when I'm maxed out and I'm not there yet. I think I can make it. I'm going to keep going until I just can't keep going any longer.” I went on a walk. Meagan and my mom and my husband came on a walk with me. Meagan was making me do curb walks and these squat jump lunge things.She was like, “I know you hate me.” I was like, “Yes. This is horrible.”Meagan: You were like, “Yes. This is stupid. What are we doing?”Katie: It was the worst. I was just in so much pain and laboring. So we were doing that. I was trying to get baby to move, and then Meagan had the best idea ever to go to the chiropractor and get adjusted. For some reason, I don't know why we didn't think of that before. I had been going to the chiropractor my entire pregnancy for that reason. Because I was having an HBAC, I wanted to opportunity to go to the chiropractor if I needed to. For some reason, I was just in labor land or something. I just didn't think about it. Meagan: Well, and it was nighttime. Katie: Yeah, that's true. Meagan: And at this point, it was early. Not early, early. It was 11:00 maybe. I'm trying to think of what time it was. A little bit before lunch, maybe right after lunch, so I was like, “Hey, is your chiropractor's office open?” Did Matt call?Katie: I think it was Matt or my mom. Meagan: Someone called and was like, “Can you come?”Katie: Yeah. Someone called because I was like, “Have him come to my house,” because I had talked to my chiropractor about it and he said that he did home visits and stuff, so I was like, “Have him come over. I need to be adjusted.” The receptionist on the phone was like, “Yes, he can totally come over. It'll be an hour, an hour and a half or something.” I was like, “No. I am not waiting that long for the chiropractor to get here.”Luckily, the chiropractor is really close, so my mom, Matt, and I jumped in the car and my mom drove us to the chiropractor's office. The car ride was horrible and I was just in the back seat moaning, vocalizing, and just having strong, strong contractions. We get to the chiropractor's office and I'll just always remember. It was the funniest thing. Even though I was out of it, I can still remember so clearly what was happening. I was a mess. I had been in labor, I think, for 36 hours at that point. I was a complete mess. I looked exhausted. My belly was sticking out. I was not wearing shoes or something. It was crazy. These two receptionists were teenagers or in their early twenties or something like that. You could just tell that they were shook. I was in there at the office and I was making my sounds every four minutes or whatever and they were just like, “What the heck?”Meagan: What are you doing here? Yeah. Katie: They've probably never seen a woman in actual labor who was not at the hospital.  Meagan: Right.Katie: They were just like, “What is happening?” It was so funny and I was just past the point of being embarrassed. I just couldn't care less at that point. The chiropractor adjusted me and I remember him being like, “Okay, how long have you been in labor? Okay, 36 hours.” He's like, “Yeah, totally. Hopefully, after I adjust you, you'll go home and have your baby in half an hour or an hour or something.” I was like, “Are you kidding me? I hate you so much. It's not that easy. No. It's not just going to happen in an hour.” I was so bugged that he said that. Meagan: Like, “Don't tell me that.”Katie: Yeah, exactly. It was well-intentioned of course, but I was just like, “I'm in labor. I've been in labor forever.” I feel like I can say that because that's actually pretty much what happened. So I left the chiropractor's office and seriously, the second I walked out, my next contraction after being adjusted, I felt the difference in my contractions. I was like, “Oh man. That did it. Baby is coming. I'm ready to go,” kind of thing. So we drove back home and I feel like everyone could tell, “Oh wow. This is different. These contractions are different than they have been.” I was excited, but I was just so focused. I labored on the toilet. I labored in an upright position in bed a little bit. I probably did that for an hour and a half or two hours or something like that. Then I started making grunting noises. Everyone was like, “Yep, sounds great. That's exactly what you should be sounding like right now.” Those contractions were so intense. I remember one of my biggest affirmations was, “These waves or these contractions are not harmful to you.” I remember just feeling an out-of-body experience almost where I just got in my mind, “This is not harmful. This is helpful. This is natural,” so I could disconnect from my body almost and just have my body do its thing and have my mind be in la-la-land. “Everything's fine. We're doing it. Don't worry about it.”That was crazy. I experienced that for a couple of hours of just total disconnection from my body almost. So then I pushed on the birthing stool for a little bit. I probably pushed for 40-45 minutes or so.Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say close to an hour.Katie: Yeah. Meagan: You pushed hard too, really hard.Katie: I was just like, “I am done. Let's get the baby out.” It was so weird. I had never pushed a baby out through my vagina because I had my C-section, so I kept being like, “Is this right? I'm not sure. Am I doing it the right way? I can't tell.” I kept asking for a lot of affirmations and stuff. That was really helpful. I just remember that Meagan was right there. My midwife was right there. My mom and my husband had been physically holding me up the whole time. I was leaning against him on the birth stool and he was just right there the whole time. I just felt so loved and so supported in a way that I've never felt before. It was incredible and so amazing. I was getting close. We could tell that he was getting closer and I was about to deliver him, so then we moved to the bed to help tearing-wise so he didn't shoot out in that upright position. We moved to the bed and I remember that the ring of fire was so real to me. I was like, “Oh wow. Yeah. That's it. I know what everyone's talking about.” I remember I just kept asking, “Guys, can I do this? Can I do this?” It just felt so intense and it was just a crazy moment in my life. Everyone was like, “You can do this Katie.” People were giving me water. My husband was holding me and people were brushing my forehead and stuff. It was just so sweet and so tender. I kept pushing and then my baby was born that day. It was the best feeling in the whole world. Every time I look back, I just think about that moment and think, “I am so strong.” I can't believe that I went through all of those challenges and the ups and downs. I just felt like the strongest woman in the world that I was able to accomplish that. I kept saying, “I got my VBAC! I got my VBAC! I'm so excited!” I was a mess, just crying. I was just exhausted, completely exhausted. I remember even feeling like I couldn't even really hold my baby because I couldn't even move my body or do anything. I was needing support to hold the baby. My husband was holding him and stuff. It was just the best moment ever. I had been in labor from the beginning of the contractions to the end for 39 hours which is just crazy. I just can't even believe that that is a thing. How is that even possible? How did I go through that? I just think it's so cool because I don't know if people remember your story, Meagan, but you were labor for– was it 42 hours?Meagan: Yeah, 42. Mhmm. Katie: I just thought it was so amazing that Meagan was there with me the whole time and knew exactly what I was going through because she went through it too with her VBAC. She knew exactly what to say and it was just wonderful that I had the support and the team because I wouldn't have been able to labor for that long in the hospital. There's no way. I just really needed that time and the space and the patience. Everyone gave that to me. It was the most beautiful experience for me and my husband. We think about it all of the time. Meagan: Yeah, oh my gosh. It's funny because that's where I was too where I'm like, “I feel this for her so much. I understand this in so many ways.” We both had differentparts of our stories and everything. When you pulled that baby out when that baby came out, I mean, I wish that I could create this image for our listeners because you were in bed and everyone was surrounding you. Your family had returned. Katie: My sisters were there, yep. My mom.Meagan: Everyone had returned and the energy and the power in this room, oh. It was so incredible. It just gave me the chills. It was a whole level up of strong. Katie: I know. It was so powerful. My midwife and her assistant and I were just surrounded by women. And then my sweet husband who was by my side the entire time. So I started labor and I labored that night. It was just early labor and stuff and he slept, but he just didn't even sleep the rest of the time. He was there with me the whole time supporting me emotionally. He still did a lot physically as much as he could, but he was there and so strong. It was just the most amazing experience. I have never felt so strong. I always look back and it makes me feel so confident knowing that I was able to do something like that. My body did that with me. Meagan: Absolutely. There were a lot of parts along the way where you could have just said, “I can't do this.” The doubt could have taken over. And even if you had a moment, which is fine, those crying moments are healthy. Get it out. Cry. Let's vent. Let's yell. Whatever you need to do, and then you honed back in and got to work. Oh, it paid off and it was just remarkable. Leaving that birth, you would never have known that we were up all night because I was so high on life and happy and energized. I literally left energized. Katie: Oh my gosh. That's so sweet. That's so nice. I just felt so grateful. I had been preparing so hard for my HBAC. The second I found out I was pregnant with my VBAC baby, I started preparing. I feel like somehow, I don't know. I knew that I would need all of that mental preparation for what was coming. Meagan: Yeah. Katie: It just paid off. I wouldn't have been able to do it if I hadn't been so strong mentally. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes we prepare as much as we can before mentally and physically, and then at the moment, we still have some work to do. That's okay too, right? Katie: Absolutely. Meagan: We still have processing. We hear these stories and I was triggered. I mean, I was in my driveway stomping around, throwing my arms, throwing a fit and all of the neighbors were probably like, “What is happening with her?” because I was like, “If my water didn't just break, I would be able to do this.” I was just such a mess. Yeah, you know, we just have these things that we need to work through. It really is. Mental and physical prep is so important. Deciding where to hold that space and give birth. You did it in your home which is amazing and Julie did hers in her home. I did a birth center. I wanted a home, but my midwife didn't do home births, and then we know that amazing births happen at the hospital too. I think that finding your space, finding your support, prepping your mind, all of these things are going to benefit you. Even in the review, even if it doesn't end up in the exact way that you want it to, through this preparation, you will be able to feel better about the situation, hopefully. That's what we hope. Katie: Absolutely, yeah. Meagan: That's one of the things that we talk about in our VBAC class, in our parents' class, is that here are the tools and the information. We are letting you decide what is best for you whether that be the hospital, home, birth center, CBAC, induction, whatever it may be, right? Here are the stats. Here are the facts. Here's the information and here are the tools, and then we support you and love you no matter how you birth. Yeah. I will cherish your birth forever. I'm so honored and grateful that I got to be in that beautiful space and witness such power. Really, I can't explain the power that came from that room. People were standing on the bed. We were standing on the floor. We were all over. I remember when I looked at Melissa, I was like, “Try closed-knee.” She looked at me and was like, “What? You must be intoxicated.”All of these things, we just come up with ideas and that's one of the best things about having that team is that you have all of the brains instead of just one entire brain. Katie: Yeah, for sure. Meagan: And when you're in the moment, you can't think about those things personally like, “I should do this. I should go to chiropractic care.” Right? I didn't think that we should do rebozo at my birth. We didn't do rebozo. I'm like, “Duh. Why didn't we do that?” I don't know. Okay, so I want to share a little bit of a stat that we have on our website. We have a blog about home birth after Cesarean and how to decide if HBAC is right for you or if the hospital is right for you. But it says, “Home births are becoming more common, especially home birth after Cesarean or HBAC. Laboring at home is common, but even more and more parents plan to stay home for the delivery itself. In 2017, almost 1.4% of births in the U.S. happened at home or a birth center, up to 50% since 2004.” Isn't that crazy?Katie: So crazy. Meagan: Up 50%. So we have the study here and we talk about how to plan for a home birth if you are wanting a home birth, the risks of home birth, the benefits of home birth, and then same thing, how to choose if the hospital is right for you, how to plan, all of the things. And so definitely check out that blog. We will have it in the show notes, and then we also love chiropractic care. We have seen powerful things with chiropractic care, and so we will also link our Benefits of Chiropractic Care in the show notes as well. I encourage if you can or if you are comfortable with it to check out a chiropractor near you who specializes, if you can, in Webster-trained or in pregnancy. Not every chiropractor is going to suit a pregnant person well because there are different types of chiropractors out there. Try to find one that knows how to correctly adjust a pregnant person and is able to really work with the pelvic dynamics while pregnant as well. Anything else that you would like to share, Ms. Katie?Katie: I just want to share that I, like so many women, am so grateful for The VBAC Link and for you Meagan, and when Julie was doing it, just so much for sharing these stories. I listened to the podcast so frequently when I was pregnant with my second and getting prepped for my VBAC. I'm so grateful to you guys for creating the community around VBAC, helping us find resources, and giving me the encouragement and confidence to do a VBAC for my second. Meagan: Aww. That makes me so happy. That's really our goal here– giving you the education, the confidence, and feeling better while you are going through your journey. Thank you again so much. I seriously am not kidding. I am so grateful to you. I am so happy that you are back in my life even though you are not here in Utah anymore. Seriously, I just know that you are going to do amazing things here at The VBAC Link and you are going to continue to touch people all over the world. Katie: Aww, thank you, Meagan. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Rachelle sits down with friend and Artist, Katie So (she/they) to discuss what decomposition does to tattoos, how autism has made her unafraid of death and understand how they fit in the world, using psychedelics to cope with suicidality (TW!), advice for new artists and ghost stories! Follow Katie on Instagram @ghostmeadow and sign up for their newsletter here! If you or someone you know is feeling suicidal, click here for resources and contact information to speak to someone! You're not alone! Thank you for listening! You can follow the show on Instagram and find Rachelle on Instagram and Twitter where you can send your comments, questions, concerns, or just say hi! Please follow the podcast, rate it five stars and leave a review wherever you listen. It would mean a lot!

Katie: Welcome, I'm Katie, the creator of the Women's Meditation Network. Lauren: And I'm Lauren, the voice and guide of the Morning Affirmations for Women podcast. Katie: Lauren and I are so excited to welcome you here.  We've heard from so many of our listeners how much they love affirmations.  So, we decided to give them to you here every single morning. Lauren:  Each morning, you'll receive a short guided meditation that focuses on a specific affirmation.  They're simple, yet incredibly profound.  And we hope they bring a little more calm, positivity and clarity into your day. Katie: So make sure you subscribe now…Lauren and I will be honored to be in your ears every morning. And if you love them, we encourage you to subscribe to all the other podcasts that are a part of the Women's Meditation Network.  There are sleep meditations, morning meditations and so much more. Just search “Meditation for Women” in your podcast player and subscribe for free to all of them that you like.  Lauren: So now, we invite you to scroll through the episodes and press play on the affirmation that calls to you the most.  We'll be there to guide you through it with love.  Katie: Thank you, and Namaste.

Jan Stankiewicz: Welcome to thriving on the prairie, a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities and inspires North Dakota movers, shakers and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Jan Stankiewicz, Community health and nutrition specialist and tribal liaison with NDSU Extension. And today I'm with Katie Johnke, who is who works for Bismarck Burleigh Public Health, and we will be diving into blue zones work, all that's going on in the state and around Bismarck. So Katie, welcome.Katie: Thank you for having me today.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah, so why don't you tell us a little bit about your role with Bismarck Burleigh Public Health?Katie: So I am the nutrition services coordinator at Bismarck Burleigh Public Health. And what that entails is just focusing on community livability, health and wellness for the entire city of Bismarck and our residents and just looking to make our community  a healthier place to live.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and that's a really nice partnership, so too, full disclosure, Katie and I work together on many projects, so Extension and public health has a really strong partnership in the Bismarck community so, this is a really, what we're going to be talking about today, is just a really great tie-in for the that kind of a partnership. Which brings us to the topic of blue zones, which people might be wondering what blue zones are, maybe they've heard of it. But I think in North Dakota it might be a little bit of a new topic, Katie what what what is a blue zone or what are we talking about when we, when we reference blue zones.Katie: So blue zones are areas of the world that share and benefit from a set of habits that they call the power nine and we can get into those in a little bit. But that help that those practices together help increase longevity, health, and happiness. And individuals that live in these pockets across the world are living well into their 90s, 100s, with little or no chronic disease, which is huge because in the United States, what we see is, for sure as we age, chronic disease increases, but we're also seeing that in younger ages too and based off some of maybe our behaviors or habits that we take on individually and maybe even as a nation. And so these pockets of blue zones really have kind of the the if you would the perfect way of living and are great role models for other communities to pick up on some of their their habits and practices.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and it really is astonishing, so I think it's, is it five areas across the globe that have these like little pockets of people who live very long in life, have really good quality of life too, so that's something, that it's not just about living to be 100 or more years old. It's that they can live well for that long.  And so it is kind of, you know, lots of people when we talk about health and wellness or food and nutrition people always want to know what the magic pill is or what's one thing that they can do, but blue zones is kind of like,  it's just, it's more about a culture it's more about just the way things are done and it is kind of astonishing to see the impacts of those kinds of things that's evident in in you know, like the longevity and low rates of chronic disease like you mentioned.Katie: Yeah I think you said it perfectly, it is more about the culture and the whole, the whole way of living, not just the physical aspect, and not just trying to reach a magic number, to say you you live to 100, but you did so in great in a great way and in a good quality of life.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah, so in your introduction you mentioned the power nine, so let's tell folks what that is and what that kind of means in you know, health and wellness and blue zones conversations.Katie: So the power nine are broken down into different areas of healthy living. So there's the the move section, the right outlook session section, eat wisely and connect. And so I'll go through each of those and kind of break them down a little bit more, to start with the move and the move, naturally. And what that really comes down to is that the environments, the blue zone environments and what blue zones tried to tries to do is create environments that constantly nudge people into moving without thinking about it. So it's just a natural fit to encourage movement and walking, versus forceful forceful things that are maybe right in your face, it's just things that are done without having you really realize it. Residents in the blue zones, they move all day because that's how their environments are set up and so it's just a natural way to do so. And their sedentary lifestyle, or a sedentary lifestyle of sitting throughout the day. won't necessarily be fixed by going to the gym but you need that constant movement throughout the day and so these people in the blue zones, it's not like they're going to the gym every day and i'm not saying that we don't want you to go to the gym if that's what you like to do, but that's not what they're doing. They're just moving naturally throughout the day at a consistent, consistent times and they're finding that that movement is enough to improve their physical health.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and so when we, you know when we hear, in the United States, adults should move you know 60 minutes most days of the week, you know those kinds of things and a lot of the times. We do think “go to the gym” or do some sort of “sport” or engage in those kinds of things, whereas what they found in these blue zones is that they don't have to even like follow those, that 60 minute guideline, because the impact of them moving all the time, throughout their day, in a natural way like it makes up for those kinds of things. Is that right, like is that?Katie: Absolutely yeah they don't have the necessarily it's not a number, they're not fixated, on all these rules and examples will go through aren't necessarily fixed on an exact number. While those are guidelines and recommendations that are helpful for people, it is just more of that natural way of living and just engaging in, in those movements, and so I think if that's something we think about in our communities here, how can you continue to move naturally throughout your day that just encourages more steps, or just more movement up and down versus the constant sitting that many of us are familiar with. Not, not just here in the Bismarck Community or North Dakota but across the United States.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and I think too, it comes down to you know, like walking to go get some groceries or walking to the library or to school and those kinds of things, I think that those are all ways that, you know, where it gets bigger and beyond our own individual choices, so yeah.Katie: So the next one that we have is the right outlook section and this talks about having a purpose and downshifting. And so, thinking of having a purpose is, why do you wake up in the morning? What is your what, what is your sense? And this has shown to have significant impact on life expectancy and blue zones has shared that it can, having a sense of purpose can add up to seven years of life expectancy. Which I think is really significant, just by waking up and knowing your your worth for that day. And I think that's really something that's internal for people, but something maybe to consider if you're looking to add more wellness components to your your own life and really finding value and understanding to your day to day.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and going back to you know have it not having like a specific number to meet. So if, and if you kind of reverse it and say you know if we don't have a purpose, it can take seven years off of your life, that's kind of, that's impactful and profound and so I think it's really interesting when you can make, again, like those small shifts or small changes. And then, the result is a longer, higher quality of life, that's amazing.Katie: Yes, and I think too, for people to understand that you don't need to have this huge idea of purpose or this huge, it can just be something very simple and personal to you, and you know, maybe you wake up in the morning because, for your family. Or you wake up, because you, you find value in the work that you do for the community, I mean it can be anything it doesn't have to be this big profound impact to the, to your own community, but just something simple.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah that's a really good point katie.Katie: And then the next one, in that section is downshifting. And this is relating to stress, we know that stress leads to chronic inflammation and long term chronic inflammation is associated with age related disease and poor health outcomes. So stress really does have a long term effect on our health. And if we can kind of downshift and, you know, have some routines that help alleviate some of those stressful moments that's only going to benefit your health.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and I really do think that having that downshift where we can live in a community or a culture that doesn't put a high value and premium on busy-ness and productivity and all of those things. So it's you know it's, it's almost kind of, it's in all the memes, it's something that you know people can brag about like somebody is a “hot mess” or they're running and their schedule is insane and it's almost kind of like a, or it can be used as like a badge of honor or something, and how that can really have an effect on on your health.Katie: Yeah I think you, you said it exactly right, that it's not necessarily a good thing to be stressed and busy. And one thing that I think this past year, while it was stressful in many ways for most of us, in the beginning, I think this past year taught us a lot of about just enjoying the simple things and family, because when we weren't able to engage, especially at the very beginning of the pandemic when things were shut down, I really think that was an opportunity for people to downshift and it was a perfect example of what it's like to just live and enjoy in the moments and not have all these things pulling you in different directions. And I know personally, it was, it was nice to kind of like reset. It was a good reset button. Trying to carry some of those practices in now his life is moving forward.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah I know I think you know in some in some cases, I think there might have been a collective sigh of relief in some of those slow downs.Katie: Yes, and so I think there's good things that have come out with that and downshifting really, just learning to find ways to simplify it a little bit. And that's not meaning, you have to say no to everything and you can't participate in things, but do things that are important to you, and that you really enjoy and find value in - can really make a big difference and can help with decreasing your stress in your life.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah absolutely.Katie: So then we're getting into the third section of eating wisely. And in this one there's a few different ways to look at that, so they go by the 80% rule and this messaging is that you stop eating when you feel 80% full. And while that may not necessarily be new information to some of us, being able to recognize your satiety and your fullness is important. And that's something we do, you know, message in different education tools that we go through. You know don't eat to where you're feeling stuffed, but the other key piece of this is that the people in the blue zones, they actually eat their smallest meal in the late afternoon or early evening, and then they don't eat after that point. So their larger meal is probably in the beginning of the day, like breakfast or a brunch style, and then their lightest meal is towards the end of the day. Which is, oftentimes, opposite of what maybe the culture is in North Dakota maybe even in just the US in general. But that's something to think about, too, is there a change, where you could maybe consider looking at that are trying it out and see see if it helps you feel differently.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah again those small shifts, yeah trying something else, seeing what might work. And then I think to some of the like the 80% rule plays into the mindfulness and the and eating without distractions and having it be an experience. You know if you think about, you know if we are having a family meal, at the end of the day, or beginning of the day, if we're switching things up, being mindful and again that downshift and slowing down a little bit to have that meal to pay attention to the cues that our body is telling us, you know those kinds of things. I think that is interesting and could also be one of those small changes, where it's just slow down a little bit.Katie: Yeah and maybe even decrease stress levels, as I know, meal time for some, can be stressful. I know, sometimes it is at our host too and so finding those ways to incorporate these healthy changes that may be very simple if you kind of just implemented some of the key practices. The next one is plant slant is what they call it, but what this is is just focusing more on beans and lentils as a staple in their diet. And they do enjoy meat but just not as often as maybe the typical American culture diet, you would find. So just really focusing on implementing some more of those beans and lentils. Finding familiarity with them to cook and add them into more dishes. And I know NDSU Extension has great resources for cooking with beans and lentils, too.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah I know and it's really again, not something that, so when we're in the eating wisely category within blue zones, you know you, you might expect to have like specific or set guidelines on what to eat and how much to eat and those kinds of things.  But again it's just a way of doing things it's like what they found so there's not, a you know, you must eat X number of beans and lentils at every meal or anything like that it's just again, what they do, and then the benefits that are seen. So again with the going back again it's just astonishing, those chronic disease rates are just so low in these areas, so they must be doing something right.Katie: Yes, and one other component and they're eating wisely and maybe it's Jan's favorite, I don't know, their wine at five.  And they enjoy one to two glasses of wine a day, so moderation, but regularly throughout the week, and they really encourage you to do so with a meal or in a social setting and they have found the expectancy difference between those that participate in a wine at five, if you will, compared to those that don't, pretty significant difference in the one that lives longer is the one that enjoys that wine at five. And so I think the key again with that is the moderation and doing so in a in a positive way and doing it with family and friends around mealtime.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah yeah I did I did say that I think they know what they're doing so it might be something to consider. But, in all seriousness, there are there are health benefits to alcoholic beverages, as well as wine, so it is something you know, to think about whether or not it's something that somebody adopts or is ready for and those kinds of things, lots of things to consider, but there are health benefits to some of those beverages.Katie: And then the last section is which, I think, maybe doesn't get talked about a lot and it we are starting to learn more about it, but is their connect section. And this focuses on having a sense of belonging and social presence with others. And so thinking about your right tribe, and who is your social social circle that help support healthy behaviors. So who is your group of people that you, you hang out with or you are surrounds you a lot of the time, and what are their behaviors?  Are they do, they support your goals, or do they hinder some of the things that you want to accomplish in terms of a healthy lifestyle.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and I think my brain goes back to when I was a kid and maybe a teenager when my mother would tell me, you know, “show me your friends and i'll show you your future”. I think the impacts of that and the implications of who you surround yourself with is kind of alludes to that a little bit. You know it could be a positive thing and then it can also be a not so good thing when my mom was trying to you know, help me make good decisions in my life. So I think it goes back to those kinds of things, but then, as well as healthy behaviors, yeah that's for sure.Katie: that's great and then another kind of statement that i'm familiar with kind of with that, is “you are the the average of the five people you surround yourself with”. And so, if you think of the five people you are around the most you are the average of those individuals, and so you have a good group of five in your corner. And so it's just an opportunity to maybe think “are these the people, for me”, and you can you know I think reflect on this at any age in life. It doesn't matter young or old. The next area that the the blue zones people kind of own is their loved ones come first. And so that they really put their family members before themselves and not in a way, where they don't take care of themselves, but they just really value their loved ones and want to love and support them.Jan Stankiewicz: mm hmm and I think too they talked about some of the intergenerational components where you know because they live so long they've got lots of relatives i'm sure, and so, then the way that we take care of them and surround ourselves with our family. I think that it's really interesting how they how they do those things, and what that looks like with you know family gatherings and you know how things operate within a community and those kinds of things, so yeah.Katie: yeah that intergenerational connection piece is huge and it's becoming more profound, I think, in our own community and across across the United States, too and just something to talk about more and be be more aware of. How you can involve those older adults in with the younger younger kiddos' lives.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and it's even when, you know, the whole, the respect for our elders and those kinds of things when there's lots of you know, knowledge and you know the the you know they're so wise and all of that, it's so true. And so, then when those younger generations are able to be around that and things get carried on you know, I think that just really makes for a really good future and a good legacy in some way.Katie: yeah and the last one that we're going to quick just touch on is having a sense of belonging and so this comes to finding a faith based community to be a part of. And that can be any denomination any way you want to participate in that, but just having a deeper connection with a faith. And so, whatever that means to you, they have just found these components are what these blue zone pockets around the world are doing to live long and healthy lives.Jan Stankiewicz: mm hmm and I think the the faith based community it, you know lots of times our brain goes immediately to a church or religion, but that's not necessarily the case - in some cases it is like there's one community that is a seventh day adventist community and so that's, you know, directly tied to a religion. But in other cases it's more of a spiritual kind of a thing or you know there's some some element of divine, divinity you know so it's it's not just a one size fits all kind of a thing.Katie: Absolutely and different ways to practice that, it doesn't necessarily have to mean physically in a place either. And I think you said it perfectly, it's just having that that greater sense of connecting with something beyond beyond you. So, yeah the power nine is really a great summary I think of different practices we can consider implementing to improve our our healthy outcomes.Jan Stankiewicz: mm hmm yeah absolutely and it really does make make you kind of step back a little bit and look at things differently and again, you know, like you mentioned, katie, it's not that the recommendations and guidelines that we have in the United States are off, or shouldn't be followed in any way it's just that the way that things are done elsewhere just helps them get to those recommendations and guidelines, without even thinking much about it. And so so it's just kind of interesting, you know how we operate, and especially in our world, katie, where we talk about health and wellness and guidelines and meeting these kinds of things on a daily basis. So then, knowing what we all know about the blue zones and what kind of is entailed in the different categories and the power nine, What does that look like in North Dakota? And what does that look like in Bismarck? Knowing that our communities and cultures aren't set up like they are in Italy or Greece or Japan. So how do we, what can we do like what or where do we start and what can we do?Katie: So there are a lot of opportunities that I think we can take from these communities to bring to our state or our own communities. Really, the big goal is putting in those nudges in your communities to help people make healthier choices, to help them live longer and live better. And so it can be little things like farmers markets that are available in your community that you can walk to that are that are accessible by all modes of transportation. Or it can be having social connections in your community that you have a lot of great groups and work to make people find find a place, and have a connection with others. And I think, too, it's connecting practices that are going on in your community to just bring things to the next level. And I love that they use that word nudge within blue zones that's kind of one of their key words and, if you think about how can we nudge people in our own communities to just maybe make a healthier choice. And it can be something so simple, is it creating safer crosswalks for kids to walk to school? Is that something that's that simple? Or is it you know, having kids have the right hats and gloves be able to walk to school in the winter? And so there's all these different avenues to go down to improve the changes within your own community and within our own states.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and I really like that example of, you know, kids having the right gear, you know if, when it's raining outside in in Bismarck or North Dakota our kids don't go out for recess, when like what would it look like if they all just put on ponchos and had you know some sort of rain boots or something you know? And then they could go out and still get fresh air and move their bodies, even when it is raining. Because I don't know, playing in the rain is kind of a fun thing, even for kids. So, just those kinds of things yeah, where it's not the way that we do things now, but, you know, what would it look like if we could?Katie: And I think that's where blue zones is great, it's not saying you have to, you must, this is the only right way. It's saying let's let's change the lens and focus on different areas  ofopportunity and like you said, what could it look like so let's just give it some thought. And maybe it's not the right fit now and that's okay, but maybe it's the right fit later, and so with these constant movements towards these better ways of doing things, because we know they're better if people are doing them and living longer and healthier, it's not going to just change overnight, or even in a year's time I mean, these are long term  changes and behavior changes that it will take for a community, for a state, for a nation to adopt some of these practices. And so being patient with that, but also being willing to go down different avenues and try new things.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah yeah that's a really good point. So switching gears just a little bit, so the city of Bismarck and the state, you know across the state too, there has been some work with blue zones already, right? And so, can you tell us a little bit about what's been going on, what might be going on and kind of how we got to the conversation today.Katie: yeah so the North Dakota Department of Health had an opportunity to work with the blue zones project and bring them to communities in North Dakota and have community assessments done to take a deeper dive into what is already happening in communities. And fortunately, Bismarck was one of those communities that was able to participate, and I was one of the leads on the project and helped the blue zones team, and got to work alongside a great group of individuals to take a deeper dive into what we have going on in Bismarck, what things were doing really well, and what our areas of improvement. And that looks so differently in each community too. So the things that are going well here might not be going well in another community and vice versa. And so we had the opportunity to have that assessment done, and then we were provided with kind of an outcomes report or have a plan of action and currently there's just some discuss discussion going on on how do we take that to the next step and so looking at some funding that is needed to possibly take blue zones and implement it to its fullest and take it to that next step, and that is happening at the state level. And so we're kind of just waiting to hear, kind of the outcomes of those conversations, but nonetheless being able to have that deeper dive into our community, we're able to, or I'm able to, in the work that I do now and partner with Extension and other partners across our community we're able to work on some of those things on our own, and kind of have them brought to light a little bit more and find opportunities to continue to improve in those areas.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and I think that was one of the really neat things so that we that we saw from these assessments in the work that the Blue zones group had done, is we do kind of get to step back and see, and kind of take a look at all of the good things that kind of are going on in the community and even across the state. And so when, you know when you're in the work or even when you're not in the work and you don't really know some of the things that are going on, it's just kind of nice to have that laid out in front of you and, you know, it's a good reminder that there are good things going on. You know, so we aren't like Bismarck, North Dakota is not a blue zone, but there are good things going on. And things that really do or can make an impact on on people's health and well being, so that was kind of encouraging for me.Katie: yeah and I think too, in, when you work in the area of health and wellness, and community livability, public health, if you will, sometimes it's hard to, I think, recognize the good things because it's just all integrated in the community. aAd it's hard to really, pull out like, oh, what have we done? And so this was a nice way to be like, wow, look at what we have accomplished! Look at the partners that we've made. And so it is kind of our own internal assessment too of even just individually, the people that were at the table like, wow we have made progress. And so I think it's great and if you're able to do that at any level you don't necessarily need a blue zones project come in to take that assessment of your community or even of your, you know your organization, it can be done. You know, what are some of the things that can be done within your own organization that may be aligned with some of these blue zones things.That it doesn't have to be this whole big picture if you're not quite there yet.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah absolutely, that's a really good point. Yeah. So then when you talk about the different assessments and seeing the impacts and the changes that have happened, I think, also working in the health and wellness field, public health field, it's easy a little bit easy for us to get discouraged, because we don't see the drastic drop in obesity rates, we don't see the drastic change in chronic disease rates and those kinds of things. So I think it's you know, knowing that it is such a long term thing, that relaying those successes or those kinds of positive changes in a community it can be helpful and having these conversations because other people can kind of get the messaging that there's changes happening, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're free of disease and the epitome of health and wellness but that there are positive changes happening. So I think that these kinds of things can help with with that kind of narrative.Katie: yeah and you know you think about some of the changes that are done, they may not be done, and you may not be impacted but what about the next generation? That's really what we want to think about is those coming after us. And so granted, you may able, you may be able to take advantage of some of the changes, but it's really for those to come and it is that it's that culture shift, and it's hard to do, especially when we are kind of in a super fast changing world with everything happening, you know just at the blink of an eye. But the things that really matter do take time, and so we need to remember that when we're talking about long term health and wellness and lifestyle changes, that it is going to be a slow moving moving pace, but that changes will be made along the way. And people, people will be able to start recognizing that and really see the difference as time goes on.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah yeah and then kind of tying that, as we kind of wrap up here, but tying that back to the city of Bismarck and their you know support of this kind of work, and what that means. Like how do they make the connection? Why does the city of Bismarck have care and concern for blue zones work? And what does that mean for the their residents? What does that mean for their employees? I think if you've got anything to share on that with their strategic plan or anything like that.Katie: yeah so the city of Bismarck did go through a strategic plan in 2019 and that was a, again a deeper dive and assessment into their own their own community and what are we doing? And what are the needs of our community? And what we found that came up time and time again, was that the residents of Bismarck have a strong passion for their community and a sense of community pride that is very unique, I think, to Bismarck.  And with that, you know, our leaders and our staff that work in the city, we want our residents to want to live here. And want to stay here. We want them to grow up here and stay here. We don't want them to leave, and so, in doing that, we need to find, you know, what are these individuals wanting. And how can we make a community, that is, that is a great place to live. And really that's where that community livability, and I love that word because it's like you think about as a whole what is our committee like, in terms of livability for all ages. And so that was done through our city strategic plan and that's why the blue zones project aligns perfectly, it fits in with all of those pillars that were identified as areas of work or areas of focus.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and I think to you know in our world, again we talk about health and wellness community health, community livability, but the impacts of this trickle into so many other areas. It trickles into the local economy, the you know workforce with job retention and attraction, you know getting college students to move here or to go to college here. It really does flow into so many other areas, it really isn't just about health and wellness. So, I can totally see where the city of Bismarck you know, having that long term, their, you know, eyes way down the road, and what that looks like you know in you know what does it look like in five or 10 or 15 years.Katie: yeah exactly it's not just the “let's improve your blood pressure” type thing, it's let's really improve your life and your whole your whole body wellness and so you know any everything from community and family and financial and all these pieces of wellness that we think about, the blue zones projects aligns and fits in all of those pillars of this city Bismarck strategic plan to make our community, a more vibrant, healthy, safe family oriented place to live.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah yeah agreed, and it really does align with all of the work that NDSU Extension does, and so it just is you know, I just I eat this stuff up and so it's just so exciting. So, katie I just want to thank you, as we wrap up this conversation was, it was fun for me i'm glad that you can join me today and walk us through all the blue zones work that you've been heavily involved with. So, katie just so everybody knows too, katie was kind of one of the main people integrally involved with the blue zones project and, in, likely will be as we move forward so i'm excited for what's to come and stay tuned for more. So thanks for listening to thriving on the prairie to subscribe to the podcast and access a full transcript and resources or links from this episode, visit www.ag.ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairie. You can find more resources for families and communities at www.ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension, extending knowledge changing lives.

In March of 2020, just as Katie Peterson's first year of law school was nearing its close, everything changed. As Katie rounds out a full year of remote law school, she and ALPS Claims Attorney Martha Amrine reflect on how 2020 upended long-held law school traditions and created new ones. They talk about what aspects of that transition were hard, what current law students might be missing out on, and the unanticipated ways that the graduates of ‘virtual law school' may ultimately change the practice of law for the better. Katie Peterson is a Class of 2022 JD Candidate at the American University Washington College of Law, a Teaching Fellow with the Marshall-Brennan Constitutional Literacy Project, VP of Membership with If/When/How: Lawyering for Reproductive Justice, and an Intern with Women Lawyers on Guard. Transcript:  MARTHA AMRINE: All right. Hello. My name is Martha Amrine and I'm a claims attorney with ALPS Insurance, and we welcome you to the ALPS podcast. Today, I'm talking with Katie Peterson. She is a law student working, going to school and living in Washington, DC, obviously during the pandemic, which gives her a perspective that most of us didn't experience. We're talking with her today about how that experience has been and how that might shape her experience and getting her ready for her future career. Katie, thank you for joining us. KATIE PETERSON: Hi. Yes- [inaudible 00:01:02] ... for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk a little bit about my experience. MARTHA: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? KATIE: Of course. So I moved to Washington DC, as you mentioned, for law school from Georgia. I went to the University of Georgia for undergraduate and I studied women's studies and sociology. So I think that really set me up nicely for law school, especially in terms of what I'm interested in, that being advocacy and legislation that's centered around advocacy. So I feel that has led me to sort of where I am now. I basically grew up in the south. DC is the furthest north that I've ever lived. So I always tell people that I'm in the north, even though I get pushed back on that saying I'm still the south. I refuse to believe it. [crosstalk 00:02:04] I say, "No, I'm a North easterner now." I feel like I basically live in New York. Yeah, that's just a little bit about me. [crosstalk 00:02:14] MARTHA: Awesome. What about school activities, internship? I know you've got a lot of other things going on. What else are you involved in? KATIE: Absolutely. So I am currently on the board of If/When/How: Lawyering for Reproductive Justice, which is a national organization, but I'm on the board of the Washington College of Law chapter. I was on the board this past year and will continue in my role as vice president next year. I also am currently interning for Women Lawyers On Guard, which is a small nonprofit that focuses on sexual harassment in the legal profession. MARTHA: Awesome. Let's say March of last year was the beginning of all of the changes. Tell us about that first part of your first year and what was important, how things went with school and studying and social life and all of that. KATIE: The first part post-pandemic after everything- MARTHA: Pre, yeah. KATIE: Pre pandemic. So pre pandemic, I felt like I had a very normal law school career. I was really close with my sort of section mates, which seems to be pretty common amongst law schools. Your section mates or the people you spend most of your time with. So I spent a lot of time with my friends that I made in my section in class and then going and having our lunches together in the cafeteria, going for coffee, spending a lot of time in the library, studying together and really forming connections that we all expected to carry on through our law school careers. Whether or not that's happened, obviously everything was interrupted by this global pandemic. So it's been an adjustment definitely, and we'll get into that.                 But pre pandemic, it really felt like a normal law school experience. It was stressful and it was exciting, it's new. It was fun. Then obviously, it had its less fun moments. But ultimately, I think something that was present my pre pandemic law career that is a little less present now is just sort of that sense of comradery and being able to... When that big assignment's coming up or that really difficult test or project is coming up, you kind of have that support system around, whether it's just commiserating and talking about how difficult everything is or getting good advice from people, that was a really beneficial part of being in person. MARTHA: Yeah. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about how things change March 2020 and what differences there were to your entire life basically. KATIE: Yeah. Like so many people, my entire education moved online in March 2020 pretty close to our spring break. Everything changed really. The school buildings closed down. We were unable to access the campus that I had been going to every day for almost a year. It was much more difficult to get together with friends and talk about assignments. It was fairly close to the end of the semester, relatively. So it was around the time that we started outlining. So studying started to look a lot different. I remember when we first went online, definitely talking to my friends saying, "Oh, we have to we have to Zoom or FaceTime during class or after class," or basically trying to kind of hype ourselves up almost to stay connected, which is a lot easier said than done. MARTHA: Yeah. So how has that been? Have you been able to maintain connections with online and limited ways of seeing people? KATIE: Yeah. It's a lot different. I feel that I've been able to maintain closer friendships more easily, and it's been much more difficult for me to maintain those sorts of acquaintances and keep in touch with acquaintances. A lot of that sort of connecting is done via just social media now. I do have acquaintances from my section or my law school in general who are not super active on social media, which obviously is fine, but it's just harder to kind of stay in touch with them. I have no clue what some of the acquaintances that I had made my first year pre pandemic, I don't know what they're up to now, which it's just different. I won't put a value judgment on it, but it's just a very different experience now. MARTHA: Then what about connections with faculty or decision-making by the university as things change and things develop? How has that been? KATIE: I'd say that everything now is generally done a bit more slowly, especially in terms of trying to communicate with faculty or administration. It's more difficult now than it was pre pandemic when we were in person. It was so easy to see a professor in the hallway and stop them for a quick comment or question or go into their office hours, which almost all professors offered. It was just really... I felt like our professors and the administration as well were very accessible. Whereas now, I know everyone's trying their best, but it's just more difficult to have those sort of quick informal conversations that you might have with a professor or administrator that you really like. MARTHA: Yeah. So when we were chatting and planning for the podcast, you and I talked a little bit about the importance of the first year finals. Back in the day when I went to law school, it sounds like not much has changed, but you basically studied and you prepared all year for this one set of tests that not only determined your grades for the first year, but really put you in a place where you either did or didn't have... You either had opportunities or maybe your opportunities were limited, or you kind of had your place in class rank all based on this one set of tests. We could probably debate for three days about how that is fair, not fair, good, bad, but that's the reality, is that these tests that at the end of the first year, are very, very important. Based on the timeline, these came about right after lockdown came into effect. So tell us a little bit about that and how that worked, how that has found its place for you in terms of the importance of your experience in law school and any other details. KATIE: Yeah, you're absolutely right and it stays the case that your first year of law school grades and GPA are a paramount importance in a lot of students' lives, particularly those interested in working at a law firm or maybe corporate law or, "big law." I put quotation marks around that because people might interpret that to mean different things, but they're extremely important to this day. So my school did have, after the pandemic really became very serious in America and we decided to close the school down and moved to virtual classes, there was a pretty intense debate over whether we should maintain the A through F grading system or transition to a pass/fail grading system, which some law schools adopted very early on because of the pandemic, the change in circumstances that everybody was undergoing and trying to cope with.                 There was a lot of discussion amongst the community. A lot of proponents for pass/fail were of course, making arguments that our circumstances had changed drastically. Some people working from home have to care for other relatives, or maybe don't have the best environment in which to study. There's just a host of variables that could affect someone's performance on an exam, which I agree with all of those points. Then others who were in favor of keeping the A through F grading system made a lot of the same points that you just made in terms of how important GPA is to law students entering the workforce, especially because it's was not, to my understanding, it was not 100% uniform throughout law schools in the country, whether or not it was going to be pass/fail or graded A through F, so there was discussion there as well in terms of our students who maintain the A through F grading system and apply to a job, will they have some advantage over a student whose school adopted pass/fail?                 So those were kind of the arguments on both sides. [crosstalk 00:13:37] I personally did not feel super strongly about either one. I understood both sides of the argument. That's sort of the, I think, maybe a future politician in me trying to be moderate. But ultimately, my school adopted pass/fail. In retrospect, I appreciated it personally based on my performance on my property exam. I really, really appreciated the pass/fail aspect of it, but I really think that people still continued to study and work hard. I don't think anyone's work ethic really changed because of it because at the end of the day, we all have to take the bar anyways and we're all paying a lot of money to attend law school. So it really doesn't make sense to not try. So I think some of the concerns that people had, while I understand them, were just mitigated by each individual's work effort and an ethic and personal desire to do well, regardless of being greater than not. You're completely right that we could debate for a long time about the- [crosstalk 00:14:52]. MARTHA: It really just hurts you if you don't figure it out at the first opportunity. Yeah. KATIE: Exactly. That's completely right. MARTHA: Yeah. So after the finals, tell us about your first summer. KATIE: Yeah. So my first summer, I decided to go down to Georgia to stay with my parents, live there mainly because of all of the uncertainty surrounding COVID and DC is a very populous region and I have a dog, so I would have to go out frequently to take her out. There was just a lot of uncertainties surrounding how contagious it was, what outdoor space. So all of that saying that I ultimately decided to go spend the summer with my parents so that I could sort of socially distance even more at their house and limit my exposure to other individuals. MARTHA: Right, because there is a big difference between, I'm imagining, where your parents are, in Virginia in the middle of DC in terms of space and contact with other people. KATIE: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. My parents are in Georgia. So I went down and stayed with them. They have their house and they have a backyard and their neighborhood is very... It's just not very busy. I live in a neighborhood in DC. There's always, always, always 100% people walking around outside near my apartment, or I will always, while walking my dog or even taking her out to go to the bathroom, I will always run into another person. So having a yard was a huge game changer. MARTHA: Yeah. Were able to work or do internships or be involved in law related activities from your home in Georgia? KATIE: I was. So fortunately, a lot of places adapted to work from home pretty quickly. One of the silver linings, I'll say, of the pandemic, at least in terms of being a law student, was that I had access to a lot more opportunities that I maybe wouldn't normally have access to just in terms of being online, you have the opportunity to work for someone who might be in a different state that you might otherwise being in person, not have access to that opportunity. But I was able to start my job with Women Lawyers On Guard, which I've been at for almost a year now, and I started working virtually for. I also did a corporate externship where I worked virtually for Boral Material Technologies, which is a company based in Australia. I did a seminar to accompany that, so I got some credit for it. MARTHA: Awesome. KATIE: [crosstalk 00:18:11] ... do both of those virtual. MARTHA: Yeah. Great. All right. So you made the decision and made the move back to DC after this summer, but what about your fellow students, your colleagues in school? Did everybody make it back? How did the second year ago? KATIE: Yeah, it's super interesting. I definitely have the thought of, is it worth it to go back if we're going to be online? Just because it's so expensive to live in DC. So I definitely had that thought, but I decided ultimately to come back because I really like DC and I like where I live. But I do know some people who have either not come back at all or have come back and then have been traveling a lot... I know one person, one of my peers who went abroad to Europe, I think, for a while and has now come back. I know a couple people whose families are in Florida. So especially during the winter months, they were enjoying the Florida heat while we were all freezing. MARTHA: Yeah, while doing online school? KATIE: Yeah. Yes, all of this while doing online school, which is a bit ironic just considering that our school decided to cancel our spring break out of concern that people would be traveling, which again, is just sort of funny because people were traveling already regardless. But people have really been able to sort of take their schedule and kind of take their life almost back into their own hands just in terms of being able to live where they want and do what they want in their free time while also going to school. So I think that there's been a lot of flexibility for people online. MARTHA: Yeah. So you are in your early twenties, you live by yourself, your job, really, looking back, what I would say is to socialize and have those personal connections, especially when your family is all in Georgia. Has that been hard for you? KATIE: It has been. Yeah, it has been hard. I've been trying to really maintain as much social distancing as I can. I've really, really been trying in the past year to stay in as much and really avoid contact with people who are not in my bubble, I guess you could say, which is very small as it should be. But even with people within my bubble, it's been difficult to try to find the time to hang out or get together. My friends are obviously just as busy as I am. They all have their own lives. So that's been a bit disappointing just because when you're in person, it is so easy to get lunch with someone between class or meet them at the library, or like I mentioned, to get a coffee or something.                 But now, it really is you have to go out of your way to see people, which I think for a lot of people has just meant seeing people less. It's just easier to stay in and maybe FaceTime or Zoom or something as opposed to actually taking the risk to go out. Especially, oh my gosh, in DC, you're trying to find parking or if you're doing public transportation, it really- [crosstalk 00:22:31] MARTHA: There's a lot of people around. KATIE: Yeah. It's just a hassle to get together with people now, honestly. So I would say that my social life has definitely been a bit... It's taken a couple steps back, I think, since I moved to DC. MARTHA: Yeah. KATIE: Yeah. MARTHA: So when you look at... Hopefully, new developments are coming and then we're having more opportunities in the very near future. Going forward, what are your thoughts about how... We've all been through this pandemic. Not very many of us have been through it while essentially training for our career as you are in right smack in the middle of your law school experience. How do you think that hinders you in one way? And we can talk about benefits, but what do you see as the pros versus cons with you experiencing this at this point in your life? KATIE: Well, I think one of the biggest cons that jumps mind is just, I think it's impossible to quantify the opportunity costs of missing out on over a year of in-person education. Law professors and administrators are such great resources for all types of reasons, but especially when it comes to finding work, finding a job. It is so much easier to be able to go up to a professor between classes or lunch and talk to them about what you're interested in. It's just a lot easier, I think, to find opportunities when you're in person than it is now. Now being online, there's almost a sort of formality to everything that was not there when we were in person. Now, I spend way too long writing simple emails questioning whether something should be a question mark, or if I should include an exclamation point, or does that make me seem too eager?                 So it's just kind of all of these extra considerations that you don't really need to take into account when you're in person because it's much more natural to communicate with someone in person, I think. So that is, I think, one of the biggest detriments is just not knowing what kind of opportunities could have been available to me that I wasn't able to take advantage of. But I also think at the same time, I've become more flexible. I think a lot of people have become more flexible because of this experience. It just really goes to show that you never know what could happen. I don't think anyone foresaw a global pandemic happening. So I think at the same time while yes, I might've lost out on some experiences, at least now, I feel like I personally am a more flexible person and I don't worry myself so much when something might go wrong. MARTHA: Yeah. What, if you know, does your last summer in law school and then your third year look like? KATIE: So this summer, I just signed up for a summer course and I will continue my work with Women Lawyers On Guard. I'm really focused on trying to fundraise for them and find some money for the projects that we're trying to accomplish. In terms of my third year, my final year of law school should be pretty exciting. I will be teaching through the Marshall-Brennan Constitutional Literacy Project. So I'll be teaching in DC public high schools about the democratic process and the US Constitution and some of the law that has been established by the constitution and through cases over the years. I also will be partaking in the Gender Justice Clinic at WCL. So I'll have the opportunity to be a student lawyer, which I'm really excited about. MARTHA: Great. I know it's looking ahead and maybe there's not a clear plan, but what do you plan after law school? KATIE: That's an excellent question. I ask myself that every morning when I wake up. I hope to work on legislation in some capacity, whether it be working with the government. I'm hoping to find a job on the Hill sometime soon in some capacity. So whether I'm working for the government on legislation or working for some sort of nonprofit or NGO, I know that I want to be involved in making the law through legislation. MARTHA: Has your interest in policy and legislation been formed by or been altered by your experience over the last year? KATIE: Absolutely. I think over the last year, I have really learned a lot more about particularly federalism and the role that each local, state and then the federal government plays in these important functions, such as administering vaccines or tests, or just sort of emergency preparedness in general. Also, I think in this past year, the pandemic has really exacerbated a lot of social inequalities that I've been passionate about for a long time and now, I think is a really good time for young activists and future legislators like me to really examine what our role should be in trying to end some of the inequality that's present in recent American culture and society. MARTHA: Awesome. Well, gosh. It's really great to hear from you and about your experience. I think that what you're doing is... You can your passion about your future career, which is amazing. We're really excited, not only to hear your story and have you here, but hopefully here what you end up doing in the future and your path forward. So I really appreciate your time. I'm sure a lot of people will think that your thoughts and your experiences have been... This has been really interesting. I'm sure lots of people will find it interesting, and we sure appreciate having you. KATIE: Great. Thank you so much for having me. MARTHA: Yeah. Thanks, Katie.    

Katie: So what do you think is a good age for girls to start wearing?Aimee: I think it depends on the kind of that they're wearing and the purpose, you know, because to me, it seems like there are two different kinds. You know, there are young children, young girls, young children, who wear play, you know.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: It's a toy. It washes off easily, garish colors, very mild on the skin, and you know, it's literally just coloring in their face. It's not, you know, enhancing their features or trying to look as society thinks beautiful, you know. They're not covering up any pimples or spots, you know. It's not like that. It's just coloring in their face, trying to look more like a princess.And I have a six-year old daughter and she loves. She has her own, like, young like toyand she asks permission to wear it, and I let her wear it. I bought some for her. I make sure that she can only do it if she has a clean face and clean hands and that she washes off properly at the end. And that she tidides it away afterwards.Katie: That's good.Aimee: She's actually on her final warning because she used to leave it out – and I've warned her I will throw it in the bin. Because I have a toddler and she wants to see what her big sister is doing and she wants to play with it, so she grabs it and makes a mess everywhere. So yeah, six-year old is on her final warning.So I guess to answer your question, my six-year old is wearing her play make-up already. So it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't bother me. Young is –Katie: How old were you when you started wearing?Aimee: Well, I love, and that's probably where my daughter got it from. I wanted to wear from a young age, the way my daughter does. I wasn't allowed. It was forbidden. And I first actually managed to buy a secret when I was about 9 or 10.Katie: Secret.Aimee: Yeah. I had to hide it from my mom, and she would only let me wear lip gloss when I was that age, and I wasn't allowed to wear any lip sticks, soI had to buy a secret one. And I was always so interested in my grandmother's and my mom's as well. But she never really wore much. She has a very simple sort of beauty routine.I'm much more interested in it than she is – she ever was. So I don't know where I inherited that from, but my daughter has definitely inherited that from me. So maybe because it was forbidden for me that's why I was drawn to it more.Katie: Makes it more tantalizing.Aimee: I think so. That could be it, but yeah, it's a real hobby for me. I really, really love it. I wish I had more money to purchase more. You can never have enough.Katie: You can never have too many.Aimee: I know. It's true.Katie: What do you think about boys wearing?Aimee: If they want to wear, then they should. Like it annoys me this horrible idea and concept of like men and boys have to be manly, like what is manly?For me, is an art. It really is. It's artistry. And, you know, if they want it, if they're feeling bad about their skin the way I feel bad about my skin, right. If I have pimples or spots, I'm lucky. I get to just cover up with like foundation and concealer, a bit of blusher. It makes me feel better.But, you know, if there's like a boy who has, you know, going through teenage years and he's got bad skin and he wants to cover up, and his macho friends catch him wearing it or whatever people in school catch him wearing it and it can be a really bad situation for him. And I think that is awful. It is really, really terrible. I think boys should wear as they like.I actually follow quite a lot of artists on social media. And I look at many, many pictures of different products and the art that they produce, and I follow male artists as well. And the skills they have are unbelievable, honestly. The blending skills.Katie: Their contouring.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: Oh my goodness.Aimee: The blending skills and like covering up, you know, basically just like covering up their whole face and putting a new face on top of it.Katie: It's pretty impressive.Aimee: It's really impressive. It's so amazing. I would really enjoy a lesson from some of the artists that I follow on different sites.Katie: Absolutely.

Katie: So what do you think is a good age for girls to start wearing?Aimee: I think it depends on the kind of that they're wearing and the purpose, you know, because to me, it seems like there are two different kinds. You know, there are young children, young girls, young children, who wear play, you know.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: It's a toy. It washes off easily, garish colors, very mild on the skin, and you know, it's literally just coloring in their face. It's not, you know, enhancing their features or trying to look as society thinks beautiful, you know. They're not covering up any pimples or spots, you know. It's not like that. It's just coloring in their face, trying to look more like a princess.And I have a six-year old daughter and she loves. She has her own, like, young like toyand she asks permission to wear it, and I let her wear it. I bought some for her. I make sure that she can only do it if she has a clean face and clean hands and that she washes off properly at the end. And that she tidides it away afterwards.Katie: That's good.Aimee: She's actually on her final warning because she used to leave it out – and I've warned her I will throw it in the bin. Because I have a toddler and she wants to see what her big sister is doing and she wants to play with it, so she grabs it and makes a mess everywhere. So yeah, six-year old is on her final warning.So I guess to answer your question, my six-year old is wearing her play make-up already. So it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't bother me. Young is –Katie: How old were you when you started wearing?Aimee: Well, I love, and that's probably where my daughter got it from. I wanted to wear from a young age, the way my daughter does. I wasn't allowed. It was forbidden. And I first actually managed to buy a secret when I was about 9 or 10.Katie: Secret.Aimee: Yeah. I had to hide it from my mom, and she would only let me wear lip gloss when I was that age, and I wasn't allowed to wear any lip sticks, soI had to buy a secret one. And I was always so interested in my grandmother's and my mom's as well. But she never really wore much. She has a very simple sort of beauty routine.I'm much more interested in it than she is – she ever was. So I don't know where I inherited that from, but my daughter has definitely inherited that from me. So maybe because it was forbidden for me that's why I was drawn to it more.Katie: Makes it more tantalizing.Aimee: I think so. That could be it, but yeah, it's a real hobby for me. I really, really love it. I wish I had more money to purchase more. You can never have enough.Katie: You can never have too many.Aimee: I know. It's true.Katie: What do you think about boys wearing?Aimee: If they want to wear, then they should. Like it annoys me this horrible idea and concept of like men and boys have to be manly, like what is manly?For me, is an art. It really is. It's artistry. And, you know, if they want it, if they're feeling bad about their skin the way I feel bad about my skin, right. If I have pimples or spots, I'm lucky. I get to just cover up with like foundation and concealer, a bit of blusher. It makes me feel better.But, you know, if there's like a boy who has, you know, going through teenage years and he's got bad skin and he wants to cover up, and his macho friends catch him wearing it or whatever people in school catch him wearing it and it can be a really bad situation for him. And I think that is awful. It is really, really terrible. I think boys should wear as they like.I actually follow quite a lot of artists on social media. And I look at many, many pictures of different products and the art that they produce, and I follow male artists as well. And the skills they have are unbelievable, honestly. The blending skills.Katie: Their contouring.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: Oh my goodness.Aimee: The blending skills and like covering up, you know, basically just like covering up their whole face and putting a new face on top of it.Katie: It's pretty impressive.Aimee: It's really impressive. It's so amazing. I would really enjoy a lesson from some of the artists that I follow on different sites.Katie: Absolutely.

Aimee: So Katie, you're a teacher.Katie: Yes.Aimee: What is your favorite age group of students?Katie: Probably my favorite age group is around the junior high school age. So from about 11 to 15.Aimee: Okay.Katie: I think they're the most interesting to teach.Aimee: What makes them so interesting?Katie: Well, they already have personalities. And they're like almost adults but not quite adults. So it's interesting to see like – I think that it's just really interesting to teach them and see how they respond to stuff. It's very different from adults and it's very different from children but it's kind of almost there but not quite.Aimee: Yeah. That sort of bridging, bridging age group, I guess.Katie: Yeah. So they're still like, they're still young kids. I can still teach them stuff but they're old enough to also do stuff by themselves.Aimee: Yes.Katie: So it's like the perfect age group to teach, I think.Aimee: Yeah. Independence.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: That's right. What about things like behavior and attitude? I just imagine that age group to be quite challenging. I mean, there's a lot of hormones going on and, you know, personalities are forming, so.Katie: Usually when in their first year of junior high school, they're fine because they're all still like, they're still babies. They've gone from being the oldest kids in elementary school to like the babies at junior high school.But when they get to second year, that's when they start getting like a bit moody, a bit hormonal, a bit grumpy in class. But then when they go to third grade, that's when they start becoming normal people again, I think.Aimee: So the second year is the challenging year.Katie: Yeah. Yeah. The terrible twos.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Well that works in both ways, huh?Katie: Yeah, it does.Aimee: So do you have any particular strategies or tips for dealing with that difficult age?Katie: I think why they're so moody is because they're – again, they're almost adults. They're becoming adults. So if you stop treating them like kids and start treating them like adults, talking to them like adults, treating them like you treat an adult, then they respond better to that than if you like to shout at them like you would a kid or if you discipline them like you would a kid.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: Yeah. Just treat them more like adults and they respond to it really well, I think.Aimee: So you find they step up to the – they meet the expectations.Katie: Most of the time. Most of the time.Aimee: Have you ever had any particularly challenging moments in the classroom?Katie: Yeah. Yeah.Aimee: Silly question really, isn't it?Katie: Of course. Yeah. I mean, I've had kids like throw textbooks out the window.Aimee: Oh really?Katie: I've had kids like punch their fists through walls like just – yeah, I've had lots of angry kids. But they're very rare.Aimee: Wow.Katie: I've had lots of them but they're rare.Aimee: Yeah, that's an interesting…Katie: Interesting, yeah.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: In terms of like overall in a class, there's usually only one in each class that's a troubled student. But I mean, that's anywhere. That happens anywhere.Aimee: That's true. So how do you deal with troubled students?Katie: I think that's a very difficult question. There's no like textbook way of dealing with troubled students in general because every kid is different. Every kid has a different problem. Every kid is acting out for different reasons. So you have to find out why they're troubled, why they're acting out and try and deal with it in the best way you can.Aimee: Uh-hmm.Katie: Yeah. Don't get angry. It was probably my best advice even though you feel like strangling them sometimes. But just try and be patient, try and figure out why they're acting out and just deal with it from there.Aimee: Yeah. Nine times out of ten, staying calm is probably the best option, isn't it?Katie: Hmm. And the one time out of ten, is when you really need to get really angry. That's the scary time.Aimee: Yeah. Sometimes, they just need to know because there may be children with, you know, just personalities, strong personalities and they just are maybe showing off to the class, being a clown. And they just need that one moment where you show them, "You have to listen to me. I am the boss" kind of thing.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Just get your power back perhaps?

Aimee: So Katie, you're a teacher.Katie: Yes.Aimee: What is your favorite age group of students?Katie: Probably my favorite age group is around the junior high school age. So from about 11 to 15.Aimee: Okay.Katie: I think they're the most interesting to teach.Aimee: What makes them so interesting?Katie: Well, they already have personalities. And they're like almost adults but not quite adults. So it's interesting to see like – I think that it's just really interesting to teach them and see how they respond to stuff. It's very different from adults and it's very different from children but it's kind of almost there but not quite.Aimee: Yeah. That sort of bridging, bridging age group, I guess.Katie: Yeah. So they're still like, they're still young kids. I can still teach them stuff but they're old enough to also do stuff by themselves.Aimee: Yes.Katie: So it's like the perfect age group to teach, I think.Aimee: Yeah. Independence.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: That's right. What about things like behavior and attitude? I just imagine that age group to be quite challenging. I mean, there's a lot of hormones going on and, you know, personalities are forming, so.Katie: Usually when in their first year of junior high school, they're fine because they're all still like, they're still babies. They've gone from being the oldest kids in elementary school to like the babies at junior high school.But when they get to second year, that's when they start getting like a bit moody, a bit hormonal, a bit grumpy in class. But then when they go to third grade, that's when they start becoming normal people again, I think.Aimee: So the second year is the challenging year.Katie: Yeah. Yeah. The terrible twos.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Well that works in both ways, huh?Katie: Yeah, it does.Aimee: So do you have any particular strategies or tips for dealing with that difficult age?Katie: I think why they're so moody is because they're – again, they're almost adults. They're becoming adults. So if you stop treating them like kids and start treating them like adults, talking to them like adults, treating them like you treat an adult, then they respond better to that than if you like to shout at them like you would a kid or if you discipline them like you would a kid.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: Yeah. Just treat them more like adults and they respond to it really well, I think.Aimee: So you find they step up to the – they meet the expectations.Katie: Most of the time. Most of the time.Aimee: Have you ever had any particularly challenging moments in the classroom?Katie: Yeah. Yeah.Aimee: Silly question really, isn't it?Katie: Of course. Yeah. I mean, I've had kids like throw textbooks out the window.Aimee: Oh really?Katie: I've had kids like punch their fists through walls like just – yeah, I've had lots of angry kids. But they're very rare.Aimee: Wow.Katie: I've had lots of them but they're rare.Aimee: Yeah, that's an interesting…Katie: Interesting, yeah.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: In terms of like overall in a class, there's usually only one in each class that's a troubled student. But I mean, that's anywhere. That happens anywhere.Aimee: That's true. So how do you deal with troubled students?Katie: I think that's a very difficult question. There's no like textbook way of dealing with troubled students in general because every kid is different. Every kid has a different problem. Every kid is acting out for different reasons. So you have to find out why they're troubled, why they're acting out and try and deal with it in the best way you can.Aimee: Uh-hmm.Katie: Yeah. Don't get angry. It was probably my best advice even though you feel like strangling them sometimes. But just try and be patient, try and figure out why they're acting out and just deal with it from there.Aimee: Yeah. Nine times out of ten, staying calm is probably the best option, isn't it?Katie: Hmm. And the one time out of ten, is when you really need to get really angry. That's the scary time.Aimee: Yeah. Sometimes, they just need to know because there may be children with, you know, just personalities, strong personalities and they just are maybe showing off to the class, being a clown. And they just need that one moment where you show them, "You have to listen to me. I am the boss" kind of thing.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Just get your power back perhaps?

Katie: So, we're talking about going local as we're in a different country. How much of the local culture do you absorb? How much, like local ... cause we both live in Japan right? How much in percentage for example? How much Japanese food would you say you eat?Gilda: Oh, I would say probably like 80% of my food is Japanese food. Yeah, I like it because most of it is healthy and it's actually like what I can get in the cafeteria at work so ...Katie: That's convenient.Gilda: It's convenient. What about you?Katie: I mostly make my own food, and Japanese food is really difficult to make I think. I'm really challenged when it comes to cooking anyway. I'm really bad a cooking. And to have to try to learn a new style of cooking is just too much for me. I'm really lazy. So I would probably say if I'm cooking food myself, I never cook Japanese food. Zero percent of the time. I never, but if I go to a restaurant then sure, I can eat Japanese food sometimes.Gilda: I sometimes watch the TV and learn how to cook Japanese food. There's some easy recipes. Do you ever watch that - Japanese television?Katie: I try, but like you said there's a lot of cooking programsGilda: That's what I was about to say, there's tons of cooking TV shows, programs.Katie: And I watch cooking programs and I just get angry that I can't cook! I can't do it like that so I get frustrated, so I stop watching.Gilda: Yeah, I see.Katie: What about other kinds of shows? Like, not just cooking shows?Gilda: Well, they have, I guess they have pretty funny shows, but I don't understand what they're saying, but I try to follow them, and yeah, sometimes they are very interesting. They also talk about the clothing season, what's trending in Japan. What young would people would do, and they have some interviews sometimes, and they're always teaching you something, so that's something I like about Japanese TV, you always learn something, from other countries as well. That's true.Katie: That's true. So how about your friendship circle? How much percent of your friends would you say are Japanese versus International?Gilda: Oh, I would say probably 40% are Japanese. Yeah, the rest of them are international people cause I work with intenational people, so I spend most of the time with them.Katie: And when you're with your Japanese friends, so you speak mostly in English, or mostly in Japanese?Gilda: Oh, I would say like probably 70% Japanese and the rest would be English because normally when they know a second language, it's English not Spanish, so I like zero percent Spanish, a lot of Japanese, but yeah like I would say 70% of the conversation is in Japanese also because I want to practice my Japanese.Katie: Right.Gilda: What about you?Katie: Well, I would say out of my friends, recently, I've had like no time to socialize, so probably like 30% of my friends are Japanese, but when I speak with them it's mostly in Japanese. I don't like speaking in English. For me, for the same reasons as you, like, I want to practice my JapaneseGilda: But I would say that from my Japanese friends, like most of them, probably like 80% of them always want to speak in English because they want to practice English too, so it's like a give-and-take, like we speak a little bit in Japanese, but sometimes we speak more in English. It depends also the topic and what you're talking about.Katie: If it's a topic you can talk about, then, yeah, go for it in Japanese, but if it's a difficult topic ...Gilda: Yes, exactly, yeah!

Katie: So, we're talking about going local as we're in a different country. How much of the local culture do you absorb? How much, like local ... cause we both live in Japan right? How much in percentage for example? How much Japanese food would you say you eat?Gilda: Oh, I would say probably like 80% of my food is Japanese food. Yeah, I like it because most of it is healthy and it's actually like what I can get in the cafeteria at work so ...Katie: That's convenient.Gilda: It's convenient. What about you?Katie: I mostly make my own food, and Japanese food is really difficult to make I think. I'm really challenged when it comes to cooking anyway. I'm really bad a cooking. And to have to try to learn a new style of cooking is just too much for me. I'm really lazy. So I would probably say if I'm cooking food myself, I never cook Japanese food. Zero percent of the time. I never, but if I go to a restaurant then sure, I can eat Japanese food sometimes.Gilda: I sometimes watch the TV and learn how to cook Japanese food. There's some easy recipes. Do you ever watch that - Japanese television?Katie: I try, but like you said there's a lot of cooking programsGilda: That's what I was about to say, there's tons of cooking TV shows, programs.Katie: And I watch cooking programs and I just get angry that I can't cook! I can't do it like that so I get frustrated, so I stop watching.Gilda: Yeah, I see.Katie: What about other kinds of shows? Like, not just cooking shows?Gilda: Well, they have, I guess they have pretty funny shows, but I don't understand what they're saying, but I try to follow them, and yeah, sometimes they are very interesting. They also talk about the clothing season, what's trending in Japan. What young would people would do, and they have some interviews sometimes, and they're always teaching you something, so that's something I like about Japanese TV, you always learn something, from other countries as well. That's true.Katie: That's true. So how about your friendship circle? How much percent of your friends would you say are Japanese versus International?Gilda: Oh, I would say probably 40% are Japanese. Yeah, the rest of them are international people cause I work with intenational people, so I spend most of the time with them.Katie: And when you're with your Japanese friends, so you speak mostly in English, or mostly in Japanese?Gilda: Oh, I would say like probably 70% Japanese and the rest would be English because normally when they know a second language, it's English not Spanish, so I like zero percent Spanish, a lot of Japanese, but yeah like I would say 70% of the conversation is in Japanese also because I want to practice my Japanese.Katie: Right.Gilda: What about you?Katie: Well, I would say out of my friends, recently, I've had like no time to socialize, so probably like 30% of my friends are Japanese, but when I speak with them it's mostly in Japanese. I don't like speaking in English. For me, for the same reasons as you, like, I want to practice my JapaneseGilda: But I would say that from my Japanese friends, like most of them, probably like 80% of them always want to speak in English because they want to practice English too, so it's like a give-and-take, like we speak a little bit in Japanese, but sometimes we speak more in English. It depends also the topic and what you're talking about.Katie: If it's a topic you can talk about, then, yeah, go for it in Japanese, but if it's a difficult topic ...Gilda: Yes, exactly, yeah!

Katie: So what are three foods that you absolutely have to have that you can't live without?Gilda: I would say that I could not live without arepa. It's like my daily breakfast in Venezuela.Katie: What's that?Gilda: Arepa is made of corn flour, and it looks like a hamburger. So you put anything you want inside and it's very tasty. And I would say like 95 percent of Venezuelans eat arepas every day. Well, it's kind of like a high-carb diet in my country. So I need rice also for lunch, and bread. Bread is another thing. In the afternoon, a piece of bread, sweet bread with coffee is kind of like mandatory.Katie: So lots and lots of carbs in your diet.Gilda: Yes. What about you? What about in England?Katie: Well, English breakfast is not the healthiest of breakfast. It's like a big plate with fried eggs, fried sausages, hash browns, like hash potatoes, beans, just everything fried and everything delicious. And I would say that I can't live without that, but if I ate it every day, then I would probably not be able to leave my house because I would be so, so fat. But it's definitely a food that is in my top foods of all time. That's probably my favorite. But recently, I've been eating lots of tofu. It's breakfast.Gilda: Oh, okay.Katie: Yeah. So a little bit of tofu, a little bit of soy sauce just for breakfast, which is just – it's a bit of a boring breakfast. But it's really healthy, I guess. So I've been eating that a lot every day. So I probably can't live without that recently. And also, pizza. Pizza.Gilda: Oh, pizza. Yes, very good.Katie: Pizza. I think everyone can't live without pizza.Gilda: Yes.Katie: Pizza is the best. Pizza is definitely a food that I can't live without.Gilda: Yeah, I try to have pizza probably once a week, I would say. Yeah.Katie: What's your favorite topping?Gilda: That would be cheese.Katie: Cheese. Classic.Gilda: Definitely. Bacon.Katie: Cheese and bacon. Oh it sounds good.Gilda: Yes. Very, very tasty.Katie: Just cheese and bacon or anything else?Gilda: No, no. I'm going for anything actually but I will always need to have cheese and bacon on my pizza.Katie: Pizza is not pizza without cheese.Gilda: Yes. Yes.Katie: It has to have cheese.Gilda: So what else do you have? So you said tofu, pizza, what other food can you live without?Katie: Well, my grandma is part Italian. So we have lots of like pasta and lasagna in our family. So I try and eat – well, I try not to eat a lot of pasta because I'll get really fat. But pasta is definitely something that I can't live without. So good.Gilda: Yeah. Italian food is so good.Katie: Yeah. And again, lots of cheese.Gilda: Yeah. We also do a lot of lasagna but, well, we call it pasticho.Katie: Pasticho.Gilda: It's a different name but it's the same lasagna. And it's also very tasty.Katie: So good.Gilda: Yeah. But high fat food.Katie: So like a real like comfort food, isn't it? Lasagna.Gilda: Yeah. Yeah.Katie: So good. So what would you say is your comfort food?Gilda: My comfort food – that would be arepa, again. Yeah, definitely.Katie: You said you're going to have lots of like fillings in that.Gilda: Yes. So my favorite would be black beans with cheese inside. It sounds a little bit like a mix up of things but it's really, really tasty. We do eat a lot of black beans every day in Venezuela. It's very common. What about you?Katie: My comfort food, I can't eat it as much as I would like to these days but it's probably my mom's spaghetti Bolognese. So good. It's so good, like lots of pasta, lots of tomato, lots of herbs, lots of cheese.Gilda: Sounds good.Katie: It's amazing. I would like live with my parents if it meant I could have spaghetti Bolognese every day. So good. So tasty. I think it's the best

Katie: So what are three foods that you absolutely have to have that you can't live without?Gilda: I would say that I could not live without arepa. It's like my daily breakfast in Venezuela.Katie: What's that?Gilda: Arepa is made of corn flour, and it looks like a hamburger. So you put anything you want inside and it's very tasty. And I would say like 95 percent of Venezuelans eat arepas every day. Well, it's kind of like a high-carb diet in my country. So I need rice also for lunch, and bread. Bread is another thing. In the afternoon, a piece of bread, sweet bread with coffee is kind of like mandatory.Katie: So lots and lots of carbs in your diet.Gilda: Yes. What about you? What about in England?Katie: Well, English breakfast is not the healthiest of breakfast. It's like a big plate with fried eggs, fried sausages, hash browns, like hash potatoes, beans, just everything fried and everything delicious. And I would say that I can't live without that, but if I ate it every day, then I would probably not be able to leave my house because I would be so, so fat. But it's definitely a food that is in my top foods of all time. That's probably my favorite. But recently, I've been eating lots of tofu. It's breakfast.Gilda: Oh, okay.Katie: Yeah. So a little bit of tofu, a little bit of soy sauce just for breakfast, which is just – it's a bit of a boring breakfast. But it's really healthy, I guess. So I've been eating that a lot every day. So I probably can't live without that recently. And also, pizza. Pizza.Gilda: Oh, pizza. Yes, very good.Katie: Pizza. I think everyone can't live without pizza.Gilda: Yes.Katie: Pizza is the best. Pizza is definitely a food that I can't live without.Gilda: Yeah, I try to have pizza probably once a week, I would say. Yeah.Katie: What's your favorite topping?Gilda: That would be cheese.Katie: Cheese. Classic.Gilda: Definitely. Bacon.Katie: Cheese and bacon. Oh it sounds good.Gilda: Yes. Very, very tasty.Katie: Just cheese and bacon or anything else?Gilda: No, no. I'm going for anything actually but I will always need to have cheese and bacon on my pizza.Katie: Pizza is not pizza without cheese.Gilda: Yes. Yes.Katie: It has to have cheese.Gilda: So what else do you have? So you said tofu, pizza, what other food can you live without?Katie: Well, my grandma is part Italian. So we have lots of like pasta and lasagna in our family. So I try and eat – well, I try not to eat a lot of pasta because I'll get really fat. But pasta is definitely something that I can't live without. So good.Gilda: Yeah. Italian food is so good.Katie: Yeah. And again, lots of cheese.Gilda: Yeah. We also do a lot of lasagna but, well, we call it pasticho.Katie: Pasticho.Gilda: It's a different name but it's the same lasagna. And it's also very tasty.Katie: So good.Gilda: Yeah. But high fat food.Katie: So like a real like comfort food, isn't it? Lasagna.Gilda: Yeah. Yeah.Katie: So good. So what would you say is your comfort food?Gilda: My comfort food – that would be arepa, again. Yeah, definitely.Katie: You said you're going to have lots of like fillings in that.Gilda: Yes. So my favorite would be black beans with cheese inside. It sounds a little bit like a mix up of things but it's really, really tasty. We do eat a lot of black beans every day in Venezuela. It's very common. What about you?Katie: My comfort food, I can't eat it as much as I would like to these days but it's probably my mom's spaghetti Bolognese. So good. It's so good, like lots of pasta, lots of tomato, lots of herbs, lots of cheese.Gilda: Sounds good.Katie: It's amazing. I would like live with my parents if it meant I could have spaghetti Bolognese every day. So good. So tasty. I think it's the best

Katie: So I don't really know much about Venezuela in terms of the different regions and things. So could you tell me something about it?Gilda: Well, in terms of weather we have only two seasons. We have a rainy season and the rest is dry. But so, you get to enjoy the four seasons in a way if you go to the west side of the country. We have like high mountains and you can see some snow and also, like it's a little bit cold over there.But if you go to the middle, in the middle of the country, the center, is hot. It's quite hot and dry. So it's where the – it's like the cowboys' area in Venezuela. So a lot of horses and they eat a lot of meat.In a little bit of north, in facing the Caribbean Sea, is the capital, Caracas. There, we have a very nice weather. I guess, that's the reason why it's the capital, maybe because the weather is really nice. We can wear the same clothes the whole year around.Katie: Nice.Gilda: So we don't have to think about winter clothes or anything like that. You can wear shorts all the time. So it's really, really nice. Yeah.Katie: What's the average temperature in Caracas?Gilda: While the, all this weather reports would say like 30, 35 and people will be like, "Oh, it's really, really hot."Katie: Yeah.Gilda: It's not. When you're there, you feel like probably 27 is like the body temperature, probably.Katie: Still pretty hot though, right?Gilda: It is but it's dry. It's not so humid. Even though we are close to the Caribbean Sea, it's not so humid. So it's a very nice weather. Yeah. I really like it. Yeah.Katie: So, outside of Caracas, are there any other famous cities in Venezuela?Gilda: Yes. There is one called Maracaibo. This is famous. It's the oil city. Venezuela is famous for having a lot of petroleum, and that's the city where all, most of the petroleum is concentrated and all the companies, oil companies. And since they have oil, the city is pretty modern and, yeah. So it's another major city in the country.There is another city that is kind of developing now is in the middle of the country. It's called Valencia. And also, it's famous because it has lots of industries and factories. So many people are moving there for job opportunities. And yeah, they have very nice places as well. Yeah.Katie: Are there any resort towns in Venezuela?Gilda: Yes, there are many especially because Venezuela is facing the Caribbean Sea. So there are many places for enjoying to see the ocean, beach side. There is an island called Margarita island. It's also very famous for occasion like to enjoy the summer at the fullest, and it's famous. That city has a lot of foreigners, visitors, yeah, all year around.Katie: So it's popular all over the world.Gilda: Yes, it's popular. Yeah.

Katie: So I don't really know much about Venezuela in terms of the different regions and things. So could you tell me something about it?Gilda: Well, in terms of weather we have only two seasons. We have a rainy season and the rest is dry. But so, you get to enjoy the four seasons in a way if you go to the west side of the country. We have like high mountains and you can see some snow and also, like it's a little bit cold over there.But if you go to the middle, in the middle of the country, the center, is hot. It's quite hot and dry. So it's where the – it's like the cowboys' area in Venezuela. So a lot of horses and they eat a lot of meat.In a little bit of north, in facing the Caribbean Sea, is the capital, Caracas. There, we have a very nice weather. I guess, that's the reason why it's the capital, maybe because the weather is really nice. We can wear the same clothes the whole year around.Katie: Nice.Gilda: So we don't have to think about winter clothes or anything like that. You can wear shorts all the time. So it's really, really nice. Yeah.Katie: What's the average temperature in Caracas?Gilda: While the, all this weather reports would say like 30, 35 and people will be like, "Oh, it's really, really hot."Katie: Yeah.Gilda: It's not. When you're there, you feel like probably 27 is like the body temperature, probably.Katie: Still pretty hot though, right?Gilda: It is but it's dry. It's not so humid. Even though we are close to the Caribbean Sea, it's not so humid. So it's a very nice weather. Yeah. I really like it. Yeah.Katie: So, outside of Caracas, are there any other famous cities in Venezuela?Gilda: Yes. There is one called Maracaibo. This is famous. It's the oil city. Venezuela is famous for having a lot of petroleum, and that's the city where all, most of the petroleum is concentrated and all the companies, oil companies. And since they have oil, the city is pretty modern and, yeah. So it's another major city in the country.There is another city that is kind of developing now is in the middle of the country. It's called Valencia. And also, it's famous because it has lots of industries and factories. So many people are moving there for job opportunities. And yeah, they have very nice places as well. Yeah.Katie: Are there any resort towns in Venezuela?Gilda: Yes, there are many especially because Venezuela is facing the Caribbean Sea. So there are many places for enjoying to see the ocean, beach side. There is an island called Margarita island. It's also very famous for occasion like to enjoy the summer at the fullest, and it's famous. That city has a lot of foreigners, visitors, yeah, all year around.Katie: So it's popular all over the world.Gilda: Yes, it's popular. Yeah.

Katie: So imagine that I was going to go to Venezuela, what are three things that I absolutely have to see if I go there?Gilda: Well, it depends where you go. But if you go to Caracas, the capital, definitely visit the wealthy side of the city. You can go shopping at very nice shopping malls. And also, you have to go to the disco. There are so many nightclubs.Katie: Nice.Gilda: Enjoy salsa. Yeah. What else? Oh. Well, we are very close to the beach side from the city. So like normally, every weekend, people in Caracas, the capital go to the beach and spend the day there after having – after spending the whole night dancing, so.Katie: That sounds amazing.Gilda: It's like connecting two days.Katie: Amazing.Gilda: Yeah. If you go to the south, definitely you should visit the Canaima National Park. It's a famous park because it has the highest waterfall in the world. It's called Angel Falls.Katie: Yeah.Gilda: Yeah. So, and obviously, if you go there, you will get to see how the indigenous people live and try some of their food. Yeah. Arepa, which is mandatory if you got to Venezuela, you have to eat that.Katie: What's that?Gilda: It's made of corn, yes corn – it's sort of like corn flour. It's only in Venezuela, you can find it. And it's daily breakfast. So like I cannot live without arepas every day. I have to eat it.Katie: So is it like a sandwich or…?Gilda: It looks like a hamburgerKatie: Okay.Gilda: And in the middle, like you put stuff in. It could be anything you want; cheese, meat, whatever you want. So there are so many styles of arepas. Yeah.Katie: Sounds amazing. And speaking of food, what other Venezuelan food could you recommend?Gilda: We also eat a lot of empanadas. I think you can find those in all the countries in South America. But every country has their original style.Katie: What's that?Gilda: It's also made from corn flour, and it's baked. Some of them could be fried. And they have meat or chicken inside. It's very tasty. And it's always like a breakfast thing. Yeah.Also, if you go there during, you can try hallaca. It's a traditional dish in. And it has all the four types of meat. It has pork, it has chicken, beef, fish, plus vegetables. It's very tasty. I know it sounds a little bit like oh, all together, but it's very tasty but you get a lot of weight after.Katie: I can imagine. That's what is for, right? Putting on weight.Gilda: Yeah, exactly. So everybody in January, new resolutions, losing weight.Katie: Sounds about right. Now I'm really hungry.

Katie: So imagine that I was going to go to Venezuela, what are three things that I absolutely have to see if I go there?Gilda: Well, it depends where you go. But if you go to Caracas, the capital, definitely visit the wealthy side of the city. You can go shopping at very nice shopping malls. And also, you have to go to the disco. There are so many nightclubs.Katie: Nice.Gilda: Enjoy salsa. Yeah. What else? Oh. Well, we are very close to the beach side from the city. So like normally, every weekend, people in Caracas, the capital go to the beach and spend the day there after having – after spending the whole night dancing, so.Katie: That sounds amazing.Gilda: It's like connecting two days.Katie: Amazing.Gilda: Yeah. If you go to the south, definitely you should visit the Canaima National Park. It's a famous park because it has the highest waterfall in the world. It's called Angel Falls.Katie: Yeah.Gilda: Yeah. So, and obviously, if you go there, you will get to see how the indigenous people live and try some of their food. Yeah. Arepa, which is mandatory if you got to Venezuela, you have to eat that.Katie: What's that?Gilda: It's made of corn, yes corn – it's sort of like corn flour. It's only in Venezuela, you can find it. And it's daily breakfast. So like I cannot live without arepas every day. I have to eat it.Katie: So is it like a sandwich or…?Gilda: It looks like a hamburgerKatie: Okay.Gilda: And in the middle, like you put stuff in. It could be anything you want; cheese, meat, whatever you want. So there are so many styles of arepas. Yeah.Katie: Sounds amazing. And speaking of food, what other Venezuelan food could you recommend?Gilda: We also eat a lot of empanadas. I think you can find those in all the countries in South America. But every country has their original style.Katie: What's that?Gilda: It's also made from corn flour, and it's baked. Some of them could be fried. And they have meat or chicken inside. It's very tasty. And it's always like a breakfast thing. Yeah.Also, if you go there during, you can try hallaca. It's a traditional dish in. And it has all the four types of meat. It has pork, it has chicken, beef, fish, plus vegetables. It's very tasty. I know it sounds a little bit like oh, all together, but it's very tasty but you get a lot of weight after.Katie: I can imagine. That's what is for, right? Putting on weight.Gilda: Yeah, exactly. So everybody in January, new resolutions, losing weight.Katie: Sounds about right. Now I'm really hungry.

Aimee: Hey, Katie, did you hear that Australia are rejoining the Song Contest?Katie: I did. It's a really big news. Really big news.Aimee: So can you tell us a little bit about? What is it exactly?Katie: is basically a music competition that happens every year in May. And countries from all over Europe have an entry in the competition.Aimee: Right.Katie: So big, big music singing competition.Aimee: And it's Euro…Katie:, yeah.Aimee: Okay.Katie:, and yeah, every single country in Europe send somebody to sing in the competition.Aimee: Okay.Katie: And all of Europe watches it, and all of Europe votes for a winner, and it's huge. It's huge.Aimee: It does sound huge, continental competition.Katie: Big battle with music.Aimee: And where is it usually hosted?Katie: It's hosted in the country of the previous year's winner.Aimee: Right. So this year then, do you know where it was?Katie: I don't remember who won it last year, but the previous year, two years ago, it was won by someone from Austria.Aimee: Okay.Katie: So last year, the competition was in Austria.Aimee: Right. That sounds like a wonderful event for the hosting country.Katie: Yeah. And I'm from the UK, and the UK hasn't won it in such a long time. And I really, really want to win because I wanted to go and see a live competition.Aimee: Right. So over the – you mentioned that you're such a big fan. Over thehistory, do you have any personal highlights?Katie: Probably my favorite entry was from ages and ages ago, before I was even born by an English entry called Bucks Fizz.Aimee: Okay.Katie: They were really awesome. They were singing a great song, and then suddenly, halfway through the song, the boys ripped the girls' skirt off.Aimee: Oh.Katie: Not that way. But they were wearing a long dress and then they were suddenly wearing a skirt. And it was amazing.Aimee: They kind of costume changed then.Katie: Yeah, costume change. And it happened in the '70s, I think, '70s orAimee: '80s, maybe?Katie: Yeah. And at that time, it was probably the most exciting entry in ever.Aimee: Oh really.Katie: It's very exciting.Aimee: A real shock.Katie: Real shock. A big costume change, big drama.Aimee: And how was the song?Katie: Eh. The song was okay. No one remembers the song. Everyone remembers the skirts.Aimee: Okay. So I take it, they didn't win then?Katie: I don't think so.Aimee: Did they?Katie: I don't, I don't know. I can't remember. Also, I remember the costumes but not if they won or not.Aimee: Yeah. Not the song.Katie: Isn't that funny?Aimee: Costumes, too are important.

Aimee: Hey, Katie, did you hear that Australia are rejoining the Song Contest?Katie: I did. It's a really big news. Really big news.Aimee: So can you tell us a little bit about? What is it exactly?Katie: is basically a music competition that happens every year in May. And countries from all over Europe have an entry in the competition.Aimee: Right.Katie: So big, big music singing competition.Aimee: And it's Euro…Katie:, yeah.Aimee: Okay.Katie:, and yeah, every single country in Europe send somebody to sing in the competition.Aimee: Okay.Katie: And all of Europe watches it, and all of Europe votes for a winner, and it's huge. It's huge.Aimee: It does sound huge, continental competition.Katie: Big battle with music.Aimee: And where is it usually hosted?Katie: It's hosted in the country of the previous year's winner.Aimee: Right. So this year then, do you know where it was?Katie: I don't remember who won it last year, but the previous year, two years ago, it was won by someone from Austria.Aimee: Okay.Katie: So last year, the competition was in Austria.Aimee: Right. That sounds like a wonderful event for the hosting country.Katie: Yeah. And I'm from the UK, and the UK hasn't won it in such a long time. And I really, really want to win because I wanted to go and see a live competition.Aimee: Right. So over the – you mentioned that you're such a big fan. Over thehistory, do you have any personal highlights?Katie: Probably my favorite entry was from ages and ages ago, before I was even born by an English entry called Bucks Fizz.Aimee: Okay.Katie: They were really awesome. They were singing a great song, and then suddenly, halfway through the song, the boys ripped the girls' skirt off.Aimee: Oh.Katie: Not that way. But they were wearing a long dress and then they were suddenly wearing a skirt. And it was amazing.Aimee: They kind of costume changed then.Katie: Yeah, costume change. And it happened in the '70s, I think, '70s orAimee: '80s, maybe?Katie: Yeah. And at that time, it was probably the most exciting entry in ever.Aimee: Oh really.Katie: It's very exciting.Aimee: A real shock.Katie: Real shock. A big costume change, big drama.Aimee: And how was the song?Katie: Eh. The song was okay. No one remembers the song. Everyone remembers the skirts.Aimee: Okay. So I take it, they didn't win then?Katie: I don't think so.Aimee: Did they?Katie: I don't, I don't know. I can't remember. Also, I remember the costumes but not if they won or not.Aimee: Yeah. Not the song.Katie: Isn't that funny?Aimee: Costumes, too are important.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

It's no secret that society has seen an uptick in divorces since the start of the pandemic, but there have also been some silver linings in this unlikely space. Katie Mazurek is a Bozeman, Montana-based attorney with Element Law Group. Focusing on family law, Katie brings a different approach to the way she guides clients through the divorce process. In fact, she recently co-authored a book called, Divorce Better Together, with a former client who helped shape a more collaborative, team approach that is now leveraging technology like Zoom to facilitate her work. Mark was able to sit down with Katie to talk about her approach, her book and how her practice has evolved to help clients discover a healthier way through this often messy process.   Transcript:  MARK BASSINGTHWAIGHTE: Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager with Alps. Welcome to Alps In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And I'm excited about today's podcast. I have someone that some other folks at Alps had the pleasure of meeting in person and was so impressed. They said, "Mark, we've got to reach out and have some discussions here for the podcast." And I absolutely agreed. Today I have with me, Katie Mazurek, and I believe Katie you're practicing in Bozeman. Is that correct? KATIE MAZUREK:  Yes. I practice in Bozeman and we have offices in Helena as well. MARK: Okay. Very good. When I first sort of reached out and looked a little bit about what you do and who you are, I was struck by the name of your law firm. Well, actually, before we get to that, let's take just a few moments, and can you share a little bit about yourself to our listeners? What do you feel is important that they know about you? KATIE: Well, thank you so much for having me today. I'm really excited to be able to talk with you. I think one of the things that's really important for people to understand about me is that I am a person who really understands pain. I've been through some significant things, including my parents divorced when I was 15, a cancer diagnosis when I was 33, when I had two kids, and right, actually when I started Element. KATIE: And so my whole kind of purpose in life is to help people through their suffering. And so that's probably what I'd want people to understand the most, because I know that interfacing with a lawyer can be really scary and really overwhelming and really foreign. And I would hope that if people can see me as just another human who understands what they're going through, that that makes them feel a lot more comfortable and normalizes their pain a little bit. MARK: And may me ask you, I know that at least the bulk of what you do, if I'm understanding correctly is divorce work, but are there other practice areas? Or are you exclusively in the divorce space? KATIE: We're primarily in the family law space. So divorce, custody parenting. We obviously help, if our clients come to us and they're comfortable with us and they want us to help with the business or something like that, some minor estate planning, we do those things as well. MARK: Okay. Very good. And again, I was struck about the name of your group, Element Law Group. I suspect there's a story here. I'd love to hear it. KATIE: So Element came about, when I created the firm, I wanted our clients to have a very different experience than the typical. And what felt at the time was pretty antiquated law centric, law firm experience. I wanted this to be really based on the family and the individual. And so that the term element came from the idea that we're all made of the same basic things. On an elemental level, who are we? Well we're people who need love and care and support and guidance. And so the name Element came out and I think it identifies or signifies, who we are pretty well. MARK: I love that. That really speaks to me too. That is just very cool. I think that's awesome. KATIE: Thank you. MARK: Can we take a moment, in my... We are living in really unusual times, there's discussions in terms of COVID and all of this happening, geopolitically all over the world here. And in other words, it's not just COVID, but these 2020 is a crazy time. And there are some descriptions of looking at this as sort of, we're entering a new normal, and I'm not one that buys into that. I think what we're going through is a period of rapid change, dramatic change, but change is always present. But we are in a crazy time where change is just, wow. When I think about the divorce space, the family law space, are you finding that these times... Is that changing? Are the needs of your clients... How would you describe what's happening from your perspective? KATIE: Sadly, there's been a big uptake in our business, and we've all talked a lot about what the causes and the factors would be that have caused this real surge. And to the best of our guessing, we think it's this stress and the uncertainty and the fear. And it's just kind of in a weak relationship, it's created the pressure point that's broken the system. But interestingly, it's also, I think, a bigger conversation about what's happened to the practice of law with this COVID and having to adapt. And I think it's, in some ways can be looked at as a really exciting time because it's forcing the law and practitioners to come into the modern era as far as how we're practicing and how we're interfacing with each other. And that's something that Element has been pushing for a long time is to say, "Look, there's all these technological pieces that can make our lives easier and should make our lives easier." And I'm kind of excited to see that happening on the larger scale. MARK: I know you have written a book, I believe it's called, Divorce Better Together, and you coauthored this, is this with your partner? KATIE: This is with a former client of mine. MARK: Oh, really? KATIE: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rob Irizarry. MARK: Wow. How did this come about? KATIE: Well, Rob started as a client in the collaborative process and for people who are the uninitiated, the collaborative process is a team approach to a divorce. We use two lawyers, a neutral mental health person and a neutral financial person. And that creates a professional team that helps a married couple divorce in a more amicable, fully supported way. KATIE: So Rob was my client in a collaborative setting. And unfortunately he was actually... He says he was my first failure. He and his wife fell out of the collaborative process pretty early on. And so he was pushed into the litigation path and his experience there and mirrors my experience with the compare, contrast the litigation world with the collaborative world. And he felt very passionately about the importance of collaborative and the value of collaborative. And he and I struck up a friendship and have been very close friends ever since, and he wants to change the world like I do. And so we coauthored this book. MARK: Is the book somewhat of a description of how you practice in your space? Is it a guide book of where you'd like to see the law go? Can you fill me in a little bit more about? KATIE: Sure. It's a very short, easy read and the intent is just to get collaborative in the minds of people who are starting to contemplate which divorce process is right for them. So it really is the personal stories. Rob's personal story of being in the collaborative process and then litigation and my personal story of watching my parents really suffer through a nasty litigated divorce and what that did to my family. And then now as a practitioner practicing collaborative. So it does explain the process. It's definitely informational, but it's also meant to connect with the reader on that kind of emotional journey and experience of divorce. MARK: I liked what you were talking about in terms of looking at COVID and seeing this in so many ways as an opportunity, are you finding, first courts are closed, is this an opportunity to really accelerate the collaborative process? Are you able to do more of this? Can we sort of flesh out what's happening? KATIE: Oh, sure. I think the collaborative process is always going to... It's so flexible and it can adapt to whatever situation that we need. And what we have found is really interesting is that the collaborative sessions that are held through Zoom or whatever video conferencing platform, they're really great. Because there's the side channels and things that the practitioners can type to each other privately, I can type to my client privately. And so I wouldn't say that necessarily in terms of volume or anything, we still have the access that we need on the litigation front to the courts, but the whole drive of collaborative is to put the divorce process in the family's hands. And certainly these times are a call to action for families to really embrace that opportunity where it exists. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. Do you find... I can appreciate, and I really need to go pick up your book and by the way, I believe it's available... Just to, if others are interested on Amazon? Or it's not? KATIE: Amazon. Mm-hmm (affirmative). MARK: Yes. And I just want to be clear for everybody Divorce Better Together. And it's by Katie Mazurek. And I'm sorry, the name of your coauthor again? KATIE: Rob Irizarry. MARK: Rob Irizarry. So folks, just to let you know it's out there. Do you find... I'll go back and say, my wife and I we're both second marriages. So we've been through the process. My wife's divorce was a litigated divorce that went all the way to the State Supreme Court. And it was just one of these crazy [crosstalk 00:00:11:17], horrible kinds of things. Mine was more of a... We didn't use the collaborative process, but we did sit down between the two of us and really work through most of the issues. MARK: And honestly just had one lawyer between the two of us, be mostly a scrivener, we stayed in the ethical bounds, to put it that way, say the lawyer that assisted us. And I think we divorced well. I would say post-divorce, there were some issues that I think a collaborative process might've helped us avoid, but I share all that because what I'm curious about is, is part of what you're trying to accomplish with the book... Are you writing to lawyers or you're writing to people? You see where I'm going? Is the challenge here to create awareness and appreciation of the collaborative process to the clients? Are we trying to sell this process, you see? KATIE: We're trying to educate people, families really. So parents and married couples that this process is available and that this process is available at any point in your journey. And so, like in your case, if there were... Did you have children? MARK: Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). KATIE: Okay. [crosstalk 00:12:58]. And maybe I don't mean to pry. MARK: No, it's fine. KATIE: So it could be, we see people who have gone through the litigated process and then they have these children whose needs inevitably change. And the dynamic inevitably changes. And we have new parties coming on as significant others and things like that. And so they can adopt the collaborative process after a divorce and just get the support they need around some of these bigger decisions or even smaller decisions. But really what it comes down to, and I think most relationships come down to this, is communication. And so you have a team that can help facilitate and model healthy communication. And then also give you good information to make better decisions. MARK: Do you find most people when they have an opportunity to learn a bit about this process and what you were doing, are they pretty receptive? Are you pretty successful moving people in this direction? Are you finding some resistance to it? Does it work better for some and not others? KATIE: So the collaborative process was started in Minnesota about 28, 29 years ago. In 2013, two practitioners, myself included, went to Arizona to get trained in this. And since then, we've cultivated the collaborative community here in Montana. And now there's collaborative practitioners all over the state. And what I've noticed since bringing it here way back in 2013 is that collaborative is the answer that clients were already for, but didn't know existed. KATIE: And to further answer your question, absolutely, there are people that are better suited for collaborative cases than others. But I don't want to kind of perpetuate a misconception, which is that couples who are high conflict or when there's difficult issues in a case that they're not appropriate for collaborative somehow, that's been proven false repeatedly. Really what it comes down to in my experience is the strength and experience level of the team that is helping the family get through this. MARK: So it seems what I'm hearing is, part of what's going on here and part of your interest initially, it's the collaborative process is going to be less painful, more positive, better outcomes. So you started, you want to try to help people through pain. And a divorce process is certainly a painful process. I've never seen a situation that was just roses all the way through. Do you find as a practitioner using this process, comparing yourself to the traditional divorce lawyer that does a lot of litigation, is there a wellness component to this is? Would you encourage other lawyers... Because to me, I like how you've described some of this and looking even now in the midst of just this global pandemic, looking at an opportunity, and I think that's such an incredible way to move forward through any change. Always looking... We can't change what has happened. All we can do is define ourselves by how we respond to it. But with courts being closed, is there a message here? Would you have a message to other practitioners and say, "Look, this can create less pain for you as a practitioner too. And your wellness can help others." I'm I understanding this correctly? KATIE: Well, I think so. I struggled a lot when I started with litigating family law cases, because what's a win in a family law case. Is it a dollar award? Is it more time with the child? It's really kind of a, almost a [inaudible 00:17:46] concept to think about it, when you're talking about human life. And so I really struggled with like, "What am I doing here? What value am I bringing? What is the long-term outcome for these families? When I've just put on this testimony, that's just biting and terrible towards another party. This is what we have to do or I feel what you have to do." KATIE: And so the collaborative practice is the hardest work I've ever done, but it is far and away, the best I've ever felt about something that I'm putting forward in the world. When you go to these conferences, you see mostly practitioners in their 50s and 60s. And the reason for that is they just got to a point where they couldn't do the litigation, the burden of litigation, the toxicity of litigation. And so they had to do something different. And I want to be clear. It's very hard work. It's very hard work. Because at least with litigation, you can say, "Hey, that's not what the court's going to consider. We're not going to talk about that. I'm sorry that happened to you." And kind of have the appropriate amount of empathy, but move the case forward because you're working within that strict legal lens. MARK: Exactly. KATIE: And then the collaborative process it's, the law is just a framework and what the family builds within that is completely up to them. And so I kind of, the analogy I use is, look, the law, the framework is going to say, "You need to build a car. And that car has to have four wheels, an engine and steering wheel." And whether you build a porch or a dump truck, that's up to you. And so that kind of freedom for us practitioners who are used to being in these really tight roles that can be really uncomfortable for us. And that's why we have a team. MARK: And so what drives the... You say this is the hardest you've ever worked. It's clear just, the audience is just listening, but we're viewing each other here and you're very passionate about this. It seems to be very fulfilling to you, very important, but what is the challenge here? Why is this so hard? Is it trying to keep people invested in the process? Is it the emotions of all that's going on? Is it crazy tangential issues that the traditional path isn't necessarily going to deal with? Why is this such a challenge? And challenge have to be a bad thing, this is what I'm trying to get across to our listeners here. But why is this so hard? KATIE: Well, you're taking two people who are in conflict and you're asking them to listen to each other, to meaningfully listen to each other and to communicate better. And that is exceptionally hard. People come into the divorce process with a feeling of scarcity, of, "Oh my goodness, I'm losing, I'm changing." We took one whole, and we're making it into two, which is never as much as half. If that makes sense. MARK: Yes. It does. It does. KATIE: Right? So because you lose the economy of efficiency and going into two households and things like that. So a real scarcity mindset, and it's very hard to get positive work out of people who are rotating around the access of fear and not enough and uncertainty and, "What's going to happen to me?" And so in the collaborative space, we really meet them in that scarcity feeling, whereas in a litigation setting, I can just say, "Ah, I know that that thing happened to you, and I'm so sorry, but that's not on the view or the horizon for the court." MARK: Right. Right. KATIE: And so we make space for all of that in the collaborative model, and that's what's kind of messy and hard. And when you're trying to help people move forward through that, it's a lot. MARK: So how do you stay sane? KATIE: Right. That's such a good question. Well, we lean on the mental health professional quite a bit, and who helps us understand like, okay, this is in your box and this isn't. Part of the really hard thing about collaborative is that I feel like I'm invested in the family and in a much different way than I am in litigation, just by virtue of the differences of the process. And so I guess I'm still working on that, with every single case it's different and I'm still figuring it out. But it's always been worth the effort, the outcomes are really incredible. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. I want to be very respectful of your time here and appreciate the chat we've had. I don't mean to put you on the spot and I think you're up for this. We have, obviously, the listening base here are all legal professionals. I'd ask for two comments maybe, in terms of closing comments. One would be, what would you have to say to encourage lawyers that are more focused on the traditional litigated model? What would you say to them, say, be open to this? Why should they move in this direction, at least at times? And then the other piece, or the second half of this would be, there are lots of lawyers, because not all clients are to want to do this. So still need to stay in the litigated space. Are there learnings or takeaways from your experience in the collaborative space that might be beneficial to help if you jump back into the litigated space. And any other closing comments you'd have, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on those two sides. KATIE: The most important lesson that I've learned about working alongside the traditional litigated attorneys is to have a relationship and try to have an understanding between the two very different practices. So my first part of that would be an invitation that, if you're a litigator and you're listening to this and you're thinking, "Oh, that is never something I would do." That's fine. The world absolutely needs really strong litigators who are responsible- MARK: Absolutely. KATIE: ... in handling families. But also let's go to coffee and let's talk about what I do so that we can compliment one another. But for the practitioners who are thinking about, who see litigation, the issues with litigation, and maybe have some heartache of their own about how they're practicing, the collaborative doors is always open and you can get trained relatively inexpensively and join a practice group and try it out. And maybe it's for you, maybe it's not, but it's still a great way. You're going to get some [inaudible 00:26:06]. You're going to get some really great information. KATIE: It's going to challenge your worldview, which kind of goes to your second point, which is we address these family law cases in a very lawyer centric, law centric way. And what I've really learned is one, active listening. I've learned to ask more questions and dive deeper into the answers. And I am shocked at how much more I've learned and repeatedly have used that skill in my litigation practice, because the last thing any of us wants is to get up in front of a judge and be in the middle of a hearing or a trial and get caught flat footed. And when we make that investment and time and energy into our clients, I think it yields a better outcome and a better experience for them overall. KATIE: So I would say that that's kind of the compliment between the two worlds and I don't see them as completely divergent and separate and apart, I see them as working together and kind of the left hand and the right hand. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And your comment of active listening really strikes a chord with me. I think at times it's too easy, regardless of what sandbox we're in, as lawyers in terms of practice. Just to, this is how it's always been done. We think we know what's right. We think we understand what people want. There's a lot of assumptions. When I was practicing, there was involved in situation where I really thought it was all about the money. We had to get the most amount of money. And when I finally learned it had nothing to do with the money at all, because I wasn't listening, the matter resolved very, very quickly, and it was a great outcome for everybody involved. So I simply want to underscore that and thank you for saying it that, let's put aside at times some of our assumptions and really take the time to understand and listen, what is the need of the client? And we are here, we are in someone else's employ. KATIE: Right. At service. MARK: Exactly, and thank you for that. That's sums it up perfectly. And we are in service of others. And we can't forget that. We need to be an advocate at times. And sometimes in the litigation space, very, very strong advocates. There are situations where people need that because they can't advocate for themselves. But that doesn't mean that we get a pass on just really trying to understand who is this person, how do I best serve them? So I've just tried to summarize some things that I'm taking away from this conversation. KATIE: Sure. [crosstalk 00:00:29:01]. MARK: And I think it's, I'm thrilled to see that you have taken such a role. And a lead position here in Montana to try to really expand and bring this new, or a slightly different, less adversarial model into Montana. Thank you for very much. I just think that you're doing some wonderful, wonderful work. Do you have any final closing thought that you'd like to share? KATIE: Oh my goodness. Well obviously thank you so much for having me. If there are attorneys or other professionals, even clients, potential clients listening to this. If you have questions or you want to have a conversation about this, my contact information is easy to define, that's elementlaw group.com. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. elementlawgroup, one word, elementlawgroup.com. So there you go. And I invite folks to go out and take a look at the website and go take a look at the book. Well, again, Katie, thank you very much. KATIE: Thank you. MARK: For those of you listening, I hope you found something of value today, and it's always a pleasure to take a little time and visit. So if there's anything else you'd like in terms of topics, questions, concerns, you do not need to be an Alps insurer to reach out to me, feel free at any time. My email is mbass@alpsinsurance.com. mbass@alpsinsurance.com. Happy to help in anything at any time. If there's ever anything I can do for you. So thanks for listening again, folks. You all have a great day. Stay safe. Stay well. Stay connected. Bye-bye.    

It's a narrative that often gets repeated to parents of young children with disabilities: the more services the better. But John and Connie found a different way early on with their son Mark. Their family's dream was bigger. The vision they have for an ordinary life really gets to the heart of why this podcast started - to offer out ideas for families and people with disabilities to go after more in life than the expected route of disability services and segregated activities.As founders of the Plan Institute in Rhode Island 15 years ago, the Susa family connected with Starfire to learn how to launch community projects. They said that this way of bringing people together, over a shared goal like a community garden, generates a certain magic - almost instantly.If you are someone who wants to think seriously about how you and your loved ones spend your time, how to connect more deeply in community, and ways to make longterm relationships a reality, this episode is for you. GET THE PODCAST FULL TRANSCRIPT:CONNIE: - I have heard speakers talk about this concept as a way of healing the world and as we're in the midst of the COVID19 virus outbreak right now, I think the world could use a lot of healing, not only physically but also in terms of relationships. We have a new neighbor who shares that passion with us, and it has been such a joy to get to know one another, to have a real give and take. I can see how if this were multiplied throughout communities, and states and nations, the world would be a beautiful place. KATIE: Beautiful. JOHN - I'm John Susa. I think what moves me for a lot of this work is almost a therapeutic plan for me. I grew up very very isolated and I had very few interactions with anybody besides my family. And most people would have described me as being very introverted. When people asked me when you were a child, what did you want to be when you grew up? My answer was always the same. I wanted to be a long distance truck driver. So I could sit in that cab and not have any human interaction for days. And if left to myself that's probably what would have happened. But instead I learned that if I pushed myself a little bit and started interacting with people and meeting people then I could change that desire to be a loner. And so I think the reason I'm so involved in all of this stuff is still mostly for myself to avoid falling back into be a loner. So I made pretty much a conscious decision that I was just going to change my behavior first. And of course after I changed my behavior for a while my attitude started to change.Fast forwarding then to when you and Connie met, and you had children and you were - down the road, you know, deciding how to engage as a family in the community, what were some of the things that you had to consider first to be connected?JOHN - I think for me the recognition that Mark developmentally was experiencing life differently than others made me realize it was going to be very helpful if I became more engaged in the disability advocacy world. I was kind of driven by two different quotes that were in my head that I learned while I was in the military. And they're very a-typical but they're very powerful. One is from Johann Goethe a German philosopher and he said, “Dream no small dreams for they have power insufficient to change the hearts of men.” That's been something that I've always come to recognize as a very powerful piece of instruction and advice. And I saw that there were people who were encouraging us in many ways to dream small, to be satisfied with what Mark is able to do, focus in on his disabilities, spend your time searching out services. In many ways that was dreaming small. There were occasionally people who would say, “No, no, no don't do that. Dream big. Dream like Mark's future is limitless. Dream like if you just provide him with all the opportunities that life has to offer, you will be amazed at how much he is going to accomplish.” And that is what I took from Goethe, dream big. And we have ever since. And that really has kind of put us into contact with a lot of other big dreamers. It's those big dreamers that really have changed the world works for people with disabilities.KATIE - Beautiful. MARK - Excellent.CONNIE: - For me in terms of community building, I think one of the greatest advances has been our church. Mark turned three at the end of December.MARK - Right. CONNIE: And three-year-olds were supposed to begin in what most people would call “Junior Sunday School.” When Mark was three, we were still carrying him - cradling him in our arms. Did you know when you were three years old you couldn't sit up by yourself? MARK - No way, really?CONNIE: Truly. Mark just kept attending our Sunday school classes with us and about two, three weeks into that sequence one of our friend's who taught the three year old class, the Sunbeam class, came to us in the hallway and said, “Why hasn't Mark been in my class?” And I said, “Edith - look.” As if seeing where Mark was at that moment meant everything. And she said, “Yes, but look at my role.” And Mark's name was there, without x's in the attendance boxes.And she said, “We really need him in our class.” And I said, “Edith he can't even sit up independently.” She said, “Well we could get a highchair and we could put pillows all around it so that he can sit up.” And I said, “We're not even sure that he can understand what you're teaching the other kids.” And she said, “That doesn't matter.” She said, “The reason I need Mark in my class is because all the other kids have so much to learn from him.” MARK - Really.CONNIE: And while we had been working seriously on stimulations and Mark had gone through early intervention and we learned about you know sensory stuff and what have you. We were doing that once a week, in a group and the rest of the time at home. But what Edith had said really started Mark and us on the path to community. Mark now…well, tell Katie what you do at church.MARK - A lot. CONNIE: - Some things that you're responsible for?MARK - I'm secretary. CONNIE: - Secretary for what?MARK - For attendance. CONNIE: - Yup, and you set up appointments for interviews.MARK - Set up appointments for interviews. CONNIE: - We were amazed, Mark was enfolded in the arms of these people who understood all about community because that fits the teachings that we have as Christians. Going back to what Edith had said to you that you know, diversity and having different types of learning in a classroom is really really really important and once you accepted that invitation, what unfolded in that first year? JOHN - What I remember is that it reinforced something that I came to realize, everybody became comfortable and it was now normal and accepted that Mark would be part of that congregation. Once people got to the point where they were comfortable because of exposure and experience they relaxed and they accepted Mark for who he was. And they didn't feel the need to treat him any differently than they would any other child. It reminds me of another one of my kind of guiding principles and this comes from a guy, Rudolf Steiner, talking about early childhood. Rudolf Steiner is the founder of the Waldorf educational system. Are you familiar with that?KATIE - Yes. JOHN - He said that, “There is nothing more therapeutic than normalcy.” That was a piece of advice that was given to us by a good friend, developmental pediatrician, when Mark was finally identified as having all these developmental challenges. The meeting at the end of the two-day evaluation process was nothing but a group of people who were very pessimistic about Mark. “He's not going to walk. He's not going to talk. He's probably not going to be aware of you. He's certainly not going to hear.” A whole bunch of things, they all at the end say “Well, good luck, take him home and love him.” That was their advice, which is good advice but inadequate. When they all left, their boss who was sitting at the back of the room observing asked us to go into his office because Connie was bawling. Sig closes the door and the first thing he says is, “Don't believe a word of what those people said to you.” And I said, “Sig if you say that, why didn't you stop them before they started?” And he said, “You know all those people in that room were doing or could do is describe Mark now, as they see him. They could not possibly describe Mark in the future. I believe if you believe them, that future will happen. If you don't believe and you adopt the approach that the best thing to do is to have Mark experience as much normalcy as possible he will become a different person. He will become more like the ‘normal kids' whatever that may be. Every person will develop depending on how much they're exposed to.” So he said, “I'm not going to let them label him because that will result in other people reading the report and it will only help them treat him in a stereotypical way based on his label. I'm just going to say he's developmentally delayed.” And his advice was, “Take him home and love him but then help him have every normal experience as other children.” And that kind of guided our thinking really from then on. KATIE - And you know, dreaming big in this instance is to dream ordinary, to dream normal. JOHN - Exactly. Yeah. KATIE - And sometimes ordinary is the biggest gift anyone can have.JOHN - Right, right. It's kind of counterintuitive because in the world of disabilities a lot of times people think that dreaming big means getting more services, the more the better, the more services the better. Steiner said think seriously about substituting every hour of normalcy with an hour of service because that hour of service is removing that person from normalcy. So it's almost in the disability world it's almost a flipping of thinking that that has to happen. CONNIE: - Be concerned if you were just going to services. JOHN - Be big in your thinking by vying for normalcy. KATIE - Yes, so even in services are... they're not normal. It's interesting. JOHN - They're not normal. CONNIE: - What's more important is that Mark participated not only in that class but every subsequent class. And when Mark was eleven years old we took our school district to a due process hearing because they had adamantly fought us for two years in bringing Mark back into district from a segregated day placement that was anything but normal, because they were sure that Mark would not act appropriately in a classroom setting. They were sure that Mark would be a disruption to other students, they were sure that he might even be self injurious or injury other people, because they were thinking in terms of stereotypes not in terms of who Mark is as an individual. And do you remember Jennifer Coats, Mark?MARK – Yeah. The one with the power.CONNIE: - She came to your hearing. MARK - Right. CONNIE: - And she told everybody just how you act in a classroom setting. That you raised your hand just like that, that you participated appropriately in singing time, that you sat with your class and no additional extra support. That you sang the songs that you answered questions, you gave talks. MARK - Right. Yes I did. KATIE - So it sounds like Jennifer had another piece of Mark and your family's story along this journey to dream big, to live an ordinary life? She made an impact during that hearing.I want to see if we can dip our toes briefly in the water of the day placement that you mentioned, that Mark was in, and how that was anything but normal. Can you explain how abnormal it was or what about it made it not ordinary?CONNIE: - Sure, the very fact that there were multiple kids with multiple disabilities just ate up so much of the instruction time. What else do you remember about it? JOHN - Everybody in Mark's class was just like Mark. Six little kids, wheelchairs. So the biggest thing I believe happened when he left there and went into a regular classroom is that for the first time he started culturally and socially experiencing life as every other eleven, or twelve or fifteen year old does. KATIE - You agree with that, Mark?MARK - Yes, excellent. KATIE - Yeah and I think that's a good segway to the phrase ‘a good life' that is something you hear a lot from Al Etmanski and Vickie Cammack. It's a big part of the PLAN institute model and you all have been involved with PLAN at Rhode Island for quite some time. So what ways has it helped? CONNIE: - John first heard Al speak, he recognized the wisdom in their model that we always acknowledge how deeply we depend on the work. When we brought PLAN (Personal Lifetime Advocacy Network) to Rhode Island 15 years ago we knew that we were standing on the shoulders of giants. The two things that we have focused on in trying to replicate their model is we help parents put all their ducks in a row, plan for the time that they are no longer going to be there or able to enrich the lives of their sons and daughters out of the love and the family history, the precious relationships. The much more important part of what they did in Canada and what we did in Rhode Island is to build a personal support network around the member. The family joins on behalf of their son, daughter, brother, sister and they engage with a facilitator to build and maintain that support network so that it's not just every individual having a relationship with a person at the center of the circle but it is all those people getting to know one another, to recognize one another's strengths, to trust one another. Between all those group gatherings individuals will do things with the members at the center, with our loved ones. And as parents we try to do that early enough so that we can fill in the important parts of the history. So the support network is really there to build a circle of support around a person, and yet also it's not just about the person in the center it's about everyone in the network joining together, being in relationships together, and in that way being in a community. Where are you now with the support network?CONNIE: - Right. Mark has had a personal support network for the entire time that PLAN has been in existence in Rhode Island. It really does take some time for relationships to mature that if we had to step off the Earth the next week, this would go on. MARK - Right.CONNIE: - And that it would provide Mark with people that he could depend on, people who were real friends, who had proved that over time. MARK - Right. CONNIE: - People who enjoy spending time with him. And we feel secure. In one of the questions that PLAN Institute seems to start with is what would happen to my loved one after I pass on, if I'm not around, if we're not there to help what will happen? And so starting from a young age it sounds like you guys have done a lot of work to build that support network so that in a time of disaster or otherwise that there is somebody there for Mark?JOHN - Right. When PLAN in Canada was first put together it was even before Al Etmanski, it was just a group of parents and they hired Al. They originally thought that they were preparing for their demise, the focus was on what's going to happen? What they quickly discovered was that yes they were doing that but they were also starting to develop a stronger sense of security and the feeling that their son or daughter was safe. There were some very positive benefits to the parents while they were still alive. And they figured it out that it was the existence of this network that provided that sense of security. And not only the sense of it but the actual security. KATIE - I love how you put that, that's very clearly stated for me and I think it's actually it starts as soon as you begin to community build: the benefits, the magic, the parts of it that are really just supportive feeling begin right away. And every parent needs that and we need to raise our children as a village. You all as a family have taken the brave step being able to say well even though some experts are telling us otherwise we're going to not believe that and in doing that we are going start this support network early and we're going to build and the more people who have joined in along the way it sounds like the more momentum has build towards this? Tell me about your family's leadership in the community as it relates to your street, and how your support network, Mark, how they were involved in that process? JOHN - So as we kind of navigate our life with Mark, I'm always looking for things that are in the way of him achieving greater independence. So this little project about looking at Warwick Avenue, Mark and his brother live about two and a half, three miles apart, they both require a wheelchair in Mark's case or a scooter in Frank's case. And so when Frank moved back here to Rhode Island we thought, “Wow wouldn't it be nice if these two guys could get together once in a while without Mom and Dad having to be the go between.” We started looking at this road and we recognized very quickly that this road was a problem. I've known that this road was a problem probably for at least fifteen years now, but I've not had a real strong reason for us to say, “Let's do something about it.” So we naturally thought that this is going to be something that is much more powerful if we have a group involved. We had a group, we had Mark's network, they all know him, they're comfortable with him. So we posed the idea, the project, people thought this is great. And the fact is that there is appropriated money from the Department of Housing and Urban Development every year for infrastructure maintenance. But the fact is also is that many states use that money for something else besides not worrying about wheelchair accessibility. So our complaint kind of brought this into the public eye and I'm pretty confident that we will be able to see some change and some action as we kind of work through the process. But it is also what ever you want to call it, karma, good luck whatever, that here we have our network and one of the powerful things about a network is the fact every member of that network has other connections with other people and within our little group we were able to identify somebody else who is not part of Mark's network but is only peripherally connected, kind of, who is going to be very helpful in resolving. And you never know who you may know until you start talking and working and interacting in community. Every network is a little community and every little community has a lot more resources than we certainly had by ourselves. Absolutely and maybe you can share how some of the other families you know in Rhode Island who have similar networks of support like you all do around Mark, how they've utilized their networks of support to do other projects in their communities with Starfire's facilitation support. What are a few of those other projects that have happened or sprung out of this collaboration?JOHN - So in about a month or so another network is going to do a project that is to create a mosaic welcome sign to this little town's community garden. It's prompted by a family who have a son who has very significant disabilities but who is a very very talented artist who is really good at sketching and painting vegetables. So they're going to take his work and they're going to create a mosaic welcome sign. This is a family I've known for quite a while, also been part of PLAN for a while, and they have dramatically really been able to bring their son like we did out of a special school into the real world and Sid has really blossomed as a result of that real world life experience. Why do you think it's important for families to lead efforts toward building community? And how do you think families are helping other people in the neighborhoods see the light of community building, the magic of community building?CONNIE: - We've been told for years on end that certain federal programs are underfunded and that there may come a time that those things are no longer available or that their support and services get shrunken and Mark loves people, he's a very social person. MARK - I do. CONNIE: - You do and you contribute in a lot of ways. MARK - Right. CONNIE: - And we're very proud of that. MARK - Right. CONNIE: - So just in terms of politics alone it's important that we give our sons and daughters opportunities to show that they can contribute to society. JOHN - From our own experience and from the experience of a lot of people we know that the amount of community, acceptance and inclusion that people with disabilities experience is really very much influenced by how much their family is integrated and included in their community. Our experience was that after Mark started going to special private school we spent more and more and more time at that school helping them with fundraising, helping them with all kinds of stuff and we spent less and less time in our community. We often meet family with children with disabilities and very quickly they'll say, “Oh, but we don't know anybody. We're not engaged in our community.” And without spending a lot of time we recently were able to recognize that that was because they were spending their time in a different world than their community. So we really really strongly encourage people to become more engaged and more involved. One of the ways is get engaged in a community project and all of a sudden you know a bunch of people, not all of those people are going to become part of their son's or daughter's network but some will. And that's because all of a sudden they know people who have common interests, there are all kinds of things that happen when you start doing things together. These projects are just ways people becoming engaged in their community, as a family, and then as time goes on for that family to be unique and having people have a relationship with that son or daughter who has a disability.Absolutely. And maybe we'll end with a quote here I think that is related to everything you just said. It's by Al Etmanski he says, “People are naturally ingenious when faced with adversity.” What ways do you think you all have managed to be ingenious?CONNIE: - With the COVID19 crisis, Mark's facilitator of Mark's support network is putting out requests with two things. One to ensure them that Mark is no more susceptible to this virus than anyone else in the community is. More importantly, because Mark has benefited so much from his contact with all the members of his network, she is going to ask them to engage with him regularly remotely as long as they cannot engage with him personally. He reads and he can enjoy texts and answer emails and appreciates post cards and greeting cards and phone calls.MARK - Right. CONNIE: - That's an adaptation that we're making right now. JOHN - We've learned that we really have to remain flexible. We have to depend on other people's creativity and let them interact with Mark in their way. In the beginning when he was younger people would always ask us, “What does Mark like to do?” And a long time ago we basically came up with the same answer, “Well I don't know, ask him.” Not only ask him but invite him. Mark surprises everybody with his ability to express his enthusiasm for things. KATIE - I love how you turned a question into a way to mobilize community to be more involved and be more inclusive. It's wonderful to meet and hear your story. JOHN: As parents we've benefited from such wonderful and powerful messaged from guys like Tim (Vogt) and Al Etmanski and David Wehterow and John O'Brien. There's a million of these messages that we've been lucky enough to try and hear and try and incorporate into what we're trying to do for Mark. That's what it's all about we're doing it for our family first - and hope that other families will see what we've done and will say, “Hey if those guys can do it so can we.” That's the power of this movement. KATIE: It's actually moving, it's doing something. That's the exciting part of it. Thanks for being movers, so great to meet you. MARK: Good-bye.

TRANSCRIPT:Ashley: My name is Ashley Hart and our family did the growing Christmas tree in Goshen project.Katie: Alright so you worked on getting to know your neighbors last year through this project? And talk me through that year, what did it look like, what did it take for you guys to put all that together?Ashley: Well it started off with me getting really excited about creating something new. So I came up with a list to my mentor of all the fun ideas I had. Then evaluating how those ideas matched with the community that we lived in and what would be a gift to them and something that we could make memories together with them. So we kind of spent time connecting with neighbors in a different way than we had before. So we might go on a walk and stop over and say good evening to our neighbor or call them over and invite them over for dessert or whatever. And that kind of got the relationship frequency enough that we were able to have more conversations.Katie: Yeah, and were you bringing the idea of this Christmas tree project to them right away or how did you start on that path to get to that project idea?Ashley: So I think one of the things that I realized for myself and took that to the way I was connecting with our neighbors was that I in my own life wasn't prepared for a big ask and so I didn't want to throw a big ask at someone else. Really I was still putting feelers out to see if the idea that we had could even happen. So our neighbor happened to be a landscaper, so I didn't even know if he would plant Christmas trees in December or not, or if that was like not going to work. If the trees were going to die or the ground would be too frozen or whatever.Katie: Because you guys did not have Christmas trees on your property when you started this?Ashley: Correct.Katie: But you had how many acres?Ashley: Eleven acres.Katie: Eleven acres and what are you going to do with it, how are you going to make that an asset to the community?Ashley: Right, and we had always kind of had a vision even on our wedding day we invited people to our property and invited people to spend time there. We wanted it to be a hospitable place but I don't think we had the tools and the permission that we were given to make it kind of an official thing to start inviting people and doing something unique for the community.Katie: So it took some permission seeking?Ashley: I think so, which is weird, but yeah. I think someone saying here's some support and here's some encouragement and start dreaming. And I was desperate for the idea to be dreaming about something other than being concerned about what's going on in our day to day experience.Katie: Right what was your main concern at that point, what were you worrying about?Ashley: I think I was really focused on ensuring that our daughter would be prepared to engage in her community and the way that I thought I was going about that was through therapy and appointments and things like that because that required so much energy I just didn't think I had anymore energy to start something new. Katie: So you were trying to pave the way for your daughter to be part of the community some day, but you weren't really sure about how to go about it. And meanwhile you had other day to day appointments and things that you had to be doing that were taking up time, energy and effort and that that permission that you go to do something off the scope of the therapy list.Ashley: Oh yeah it was like it was such a gift. Yeah it was just you know you get stuck in the grind of doing what's best and the idea to imagine creating something that intrinsically you already know what is good for you, and what is good for your family and what is good for the community. And just someone saying ‘Go for it' it's really.. I've talked about that you're getting to lift your eyes off a problem or what is perceived as a problem and getting to lift your eyes to bringing beauty into your world and your community.Katie: Yes, so before you started this, was it a year long project, about?Ashley: Yeah.Katie: Ten months, year long project, before you started the year long project to plant Christmas trees in your yard and invite your neighbors to, can you explain actually a little bit more about what that Christmas tree project was in the end?Ashley: Yeah, so the goal was, we started the project in July, and because of the event, our event was in December. So we had to kind of move quickly once we decided what we were doing but the idea was to invite families in the community, so because it's a rural community that's a wide area, but invite community members to come and to plant a CHristmas tree on our land. And we wanted it to be a healing experience to everyone who came so we talked through what's healing for community and individuals. So we brought the five senses into the experience. So we had art, lighting, lumineers, paths through the fields and Christmas music anda baker came and baked Christmas cookies that's from Goshen and hot cocoa and a bonfire. So we tried to make it as memory making as we could by sealing in those five senses and then families are invited to come back each year and they can either take their Christmas tree if it's tall enough for them or they can just check on it and take a picture with their family. So that's been really fun to see families bewildered in the generosity. Families would call us and say, “ok so what are the rules around this?” or like ‘well how do we sign, and ensure that this is ours.” And so they've just been really surprised by the generosity.Katie: They also are seeking permission.Ashley: Yeah.Katie: To just show up and have a Christmas tree party?Ashley: Right. Right.Katie: Yeah it kind of shows that we've lost a little bit of our muscle for community building. We don't really know what to do in the face of something as ordinary and simply beautiful as this, it's kind of like there's a catch. Where's the marketing here?Ashley: Right, exactly and we have a friend here at Starfire mention that really we're just returning to our roots as rural people. Who used to sit on one another's porches and play music and eat together, so we talked about that that evening that we want more of that. And we really got a sense from our neighbors that they did too. So people would come by and talk to me about it like, “Oh I have this idea or I have that idea.” So we're hoping that fosters more and more of that. Katie: Did many people know your family who came to the event? How did you make connections and make that neighborliness happen?Ashley: So it was funny because several days before the event we had no one signed up for the event.Katie: Seven days before?Ashley: Several, several so like three or four days before. We had like signs up, we had advertised.Katie: So really quickly describe your neighborhood real quick because when you say you have signs and things up it's at like the one library and maybe like…Ashley: One coffee shop.Katie: Yeah.Ashley: There's one coffee shop, there's like two fast food restaurants or three and two gas stations and a library. Otherwise it's a very rural community. So we had posted things on Facebook, on the Goshen Facebook community page but then we had also put it in a coffee shop. So we really had no idea how many trees we needed so we picked thirty, I'm not sure why but it was crazy because somebody called like three or four days before and was like I know it's really late but is there anyway our family could sign up? And I was like yeah we've got some room.Katie: You hang up and were like woo-hoo!Ashley: Yes totally, like we got one and her friend wanted to sign up too so that made two families and what we didn't know which I think is really important is having people invested in the process, so our neighbor Dan brough him and everyone he knew to that event. He was excited about it because he had done so much in giving advice and shopping around for trees and going to get thte trees, that he was invested enough to want it to be a good event and want his people to come and experience it.Katie: And is this the landscaper you had mentioned? So you had a neighbor, I mean you have eleven acres how many acres are around you?Ashley: We have one to our right and one to our left then we have one across the street, so yeah. Not a lot.Katie: So you have three neighbors in the vicinity of you and neighbor Dan was one of them. What a gem.Ashley: I know he is a gem.Katie: How did you meet him? Did you already know him?Ashley: Yeah, he has been friends with my husband's parents who live right next door also. So he's been a friend of their families for a while and you know in rural communities if there's something wrong everyone shows up. But otherwise you kind of naturally keep to yourself and sometimes you might stop over and say hi but this just was really nice because we got to spend more time together and got to use one another's gifts in a way that brought people together so that was great.Katie: Yeah. So this was not the first time that you've been part of a community in an intentional way. This experience that you had in your neighborhood with your family was sort of precluded by your own youth living in intentional community being part of living with a family, so you've tried community in various forms?Ashley: Yeah it's always been important to me.Katie: Can you talk more about that?Ashley: I think I've always experienced more joy when I'm doing life with other people and yet when you're doing life with more people it can be complicated too. So that's just being with other people. Katie: That's a good thing to know going into it.Ashley: Yeah I think so.Katie: You had seen some of the pitfalls of it but you had also lived some of the joys of it and knew I want this for my family now too?Ashley: Right and you know even having your own family that's having a small community. So yeah I've experienced it in multiple different settings and really just treasured the gift of letting people be beyond the veils of their front doors and back doors and getting to spend real life with one another.Katie: Yeah so you've sought it out in that way. You've been seeking it. How were those experiences that you've had in the past in the intentional community that you have been different from the one that you experienced when you reached out to your neighbors and kind of had this project type experience where you're connecting over a shared idea, a creation versus like all living together in the same house?Ashley: Yeah, well it's nice because you have a goal and it's accomplishable and you're kind of bringing everyone in so that's different I would say. Then just all doing life together. You have an event and then it's done.Katie: Yeah, you've all achieved something together and like you said earlier and it's a way for everyone to use their specific gifts like you had the baker that came, neighbor Dan brought the trees, there were other people who probably set up the decorates and had ideas around where to plant the trees. Even the people who showed up that day, their gifts were their presence and getting enthusiastic about what's going on. And everybody can kind of have a role there and doing something that's kind of out of the ordinary.Ashley: Very out of the ordinary for Goshen. Yeah we had one experience where it was like an art installation where we zig-zagged rope through the trees and everyone brought a little lantern out, different sizes of light lite lanterns so by the end they had created this beautiful art piece and we talked about you've all brought your gifts here tonight, just being together and this is just a display of what could be as we spend time together and do life together.Katie: Yeah I love that imagery. So we're going to segue. To the time you decided to move away from this place. The moment you made the decision after all of this goodness had been created to say you know what we're going to try a new neighborhood. Take me to some of the decision making and what was that like? Was it difficult? Where you anxious about leaving? Did you feel like what if we regret this because we've made all these connections. What was your motive there?Ashley: Sure, yeah well I think one important thing to talk about as far as the project goes is we were in the midst of deciding while we were doing the project. So I asked my mentor should we do it in Goshen? Should we do it where we think we're going to go? And we kind of ended up deciding to do it now and do it where you are and I think there's a lot of lessons in that.We don't have to wait until we think everything is right to start building community and to start creating spaces of belonging for our neighbors and memory making moments for each other those are always good and always can be healing, so I'm glad we didn't wait. Katie: And you also have a two year old, three year old?Ashley: Three year old now.Katie: A three year old. So as parents too it's like well I'm going to wait until my kid gets older, things are less hectic. So doing it in the midst of all of it and what's the value in that that you found at the end even when you guys were packing up your bags and deciding to leave?Ashley: Well I think the biggest take away for us was that we built the muscle to like we now have the muscle to build community. And I”m just naturally looking for it all the time going like ‘oh what could we do here?' So we've done a couple of things in our new neighborhood not for any project per say but because we now have the muscle and we want community where we are. Katie: Yeah tell me what were some of the first few things that you did when you moved to the new neighborhood that maybe you didn't do when you moved to your Goshen neighborhood?Ashley: Yeah, so our new neighborhood before we had actually bought the house but we were pretty sure that was where we were headed it was trick-or-treat so we were like ok how often are you invited to every single person's house at the same time. Like this, we can't miss this.Katie: Yeah that's a good point.Ashley: Yeah like never.Katie: Yes please come knock on our door and we'll give you things.Ashley: So we went to that neighborhood that night, just to introduce ourselves and said we are probably going to be living right there and we're eager to connect with you guys.Katie: Wow so even before you put money down on the house, even before you closed on the house?Ashley: Yes, yes.Katie: Wow, ok.Ashley: Yeah, so we were excited about building community there and we really wanted to take what we were learning and not just leave it in Goshen, but bring it along with us for all of us. So that's one thing that we did, that was in late October and then in February we made jars of hot cocoa and put our picture on them and our address and we said we're your new neighbors and our daughter was in a little red wagon and just saying hello and that inspired lots of conversations and people coming to our house and bringing us stuff. So that kind of got the wheels spinning in the neighborhood I think.Katie: Were you writing down names after each one?Ashley: Yes, my husband actually was really intent too which was a fun dynamic to see him to start getting invested in the idea of community building because he didn't grow up building community like I did as much.Katie: And he was the note taker he was the one, yeah?Ashley: Yeah, wanting to know his neighbors.Katie: So I think what you just touched on which is really important is we think sometimes we need to be the ones welcomed in and instead you guys were the welcomers to your new neighborhood to your new neighbors to say hey we're here and we want to know you. So taking the first step doesn't always have to come from the other person.Ashley: Right, and I think that's kind of fun for the neighbors to be like ‘wait she flipped the switch, like what just happened there?' Yeah, and it was totally fun for us so we said we would do it again in a heartbeat because we got to go in people's houses and visit and people came in our house, it was nice. Katie: Yeah when you left your neighborhood behind did you have any lessons that you were taken from what you learned over that year with the Christmas tree project that you were like we're going to do it differently this time. We tried it that way and now let's try it this way. Was there anything that stood out where you're like…Ashley: Lessons learned?Katie: Yeah.Ashley: Yeah, I think the big lesson, my big takeaway from growing Christmas trees in Goshen was with a new event, a new project no one knows what to expect so it's really hard to get people invested unless they're a part of the creation of the idea, and so we only had a couple people that were involved with the creation of the idea. And so that ends up meaning that you're doing a lot of the creation and administration of the event, so my take away in the future is that I want our neighbors there with us like what should we do with our community what would be something that our community needs or wants that would be fun for everybody. So bringing everyone into the decision making piece..Katie: From the beginning?Ashley: From the beginning. Now we're trying to back track and go like maybe we do a Christmas planning in July so we get everybody to come together to start working towards the goal for the event.Katie: Yeah and it's what you said before neighbor Dan was invested from the beginning and he was somebody who brought a lot of people with him, so the people who come it's hard to sometimes invite the whole neighborhood if it's just your family. But the more people who come, the more networks they have and everybody's networks kind of show up too. But also you're saying just the excitement piece and getting it all together, it's not all on you as a family to plan it all and dream it all up and there's more shared ownership.Ashley: Right which means there's more presence at the event too. There's ten families that are excited about it and they're bringing all their gifts and networks there. So that's a big help, so I think that that would be if I was doing that again when we tried to do that but I think we're all just learning as we go and I think we did it by inviting a group of people, we weren't good at explaining this is what we're thinking about we just said come plan with us we're going to do an event and they were like i have other things going on so..Katie: Yeah, sounds like work.Ashley: Yeah, exactly, so eventually they came to the event and they're definitely a part of our community but not bringing people in early to help ideate and create it.Katie: What about just in terms of knowing neighbors and interacting with them differently are their things that you do as part of your lifestyle now that maybe you didn't do you know in your former neighborhood that know you can kind of.. I guess I'm asking that because you can reinvent yourself when you move somewhere, you can be a new person in a way. So there's a benefit in showing up as this new neighbor and being like ok this is the type of neighbor I want to be now, I might not have been that in my neighborhood prior but now I can show up and nobody knows me and I can start new right?Ashley: Yeah I think the big thing that we've done differently is just at the outset let people know that we're interested in being together. So a lot of people I've learned that in suburban neighborhoods like to play and do outdoor life in their backyard with their privacy fence and so we've spent a lot of time in our driveway and in the front yard and going for walks and interacting with people that way so some of it is just relearning how to be in a new environment too. Katie: Yeah I love that so you're spending time in the front yard so that when people get home from work and they pull in their driveway you can be like ‘hey'!Ashley: Right.Katie: Privacy, there's a value of privacy that we have as Americans.Ashley: For sure.Katie: But we aren't necessarily happy in our private lives we'd rather spend it with other people we just don't know what that looks like any more. So do you think that you have a different mindset than you started this with and in what way?Ashley: I definitely, I have a huge different mindset yeah. In so many different ways I mean it's like so many different layers, my mindset during community building I'm still super excited about community building in our new neighborhood and I'm also so grateful that i now see people who are neighbors with their gifts. Like that I think is different than before which is surprising to me because I thought that I saw people that way always but I think you know as we were getting to know people in our new neighborhood we were like ‘oh my gosh this is amazing we have this person across the street that does this or that's interested in that' and before I think we were just trying to do our own thing and then relating to people asit happened where as now we're much more intentional about making it happen that we connect with those people and creating spaces where we can do that together.Katie: So seeing those gifts as an avenue for ‘this is how we can connect with them, wow' let's learn from that person or is that the difference?Ashley: Yeah and I think even outside of our neighborhood I'm just learning how other people we're connected with have their gifts and who they are, connect with us and vice versa.Katie: Like the common?Ashley: Commonality, yeah the things we share and care about. For example, my uncle is a musician and piano tuner and everytime he and my daughter get together they just love doing music together. And so I asked can we do this quarterly even though you live two hours away, can we like break bread together and do music together and so we've been doing that for two and a half years since we started getting involved here. So I think just being more intentional and making it happen putting it on the calendar and dreaming in a different way.Katie: Yeah and you brought up your daughter and I think I want to bring it back to this idea that in the beginning you were like I need to prepare her to be part of the community. In what ways do you see her now as a part of the community and was there preparation in that or did it sort of did she, did she just get immersed in this way through gifts?Ashley: Yeah I think I've been really intentional about not putting her up on a stage to be engaged with but instead just being a part of our family and people engaging with us and with her. If that makes sense. Katie: Was that a shift for you to think of it that way?Ashley: I think possibly yeah I think I had an intrinsic sense of her belonging and her belonging in her community but I think I had to learn what things I want to bring our family around and to fuel and what things I want to invest in with our family, if that makes sense.Katie: Time-wise even?Ashley: Yeah.Katie: Where you're spending your time?Ashley: Yeah, we did study with our congregation with families and the number one asset the number one deficit that they had was time. That's your number one thing, right, you have to spend it where it counts and so for us we really decided that we look like being together as a family and being with our extended family and being with our neighbors.Katie: Yeah. I guess that part of it in the beginning you were looking at therapy and things to get her ready for people and now you're just like you're doing those things still.Ashley: Yeah, and I guess my answer is I always had a sense intrinsically that she belonged no matter what and I think that having conversations with my mentor affirmed my intrinsic sense of her belonging, does that make sense?Katie: Yes, do you think that hearing that from somebody who is in the disability field to say something as ordinary as like go get to know your neighbors, was that.. Because it's playing into your instincts as a parent that you already know and it seems like most places aren't playing into those instincts they're telling you ‘we're experts and this is what we know that you don't'. And for someone to give you something that you already know as a way of life, you have taken that and it's caught on so quickly and so rapidly.So I guess that was kind of part of my question was like in the beginning you were waiting maybe on ‘well we've got to get these things done, we've got to line this stuff up and then maybe we'll find community or maybe there will be a way to be connected to people, maybe there will be a better time' and then hearing from somebody who's in this role to say no it's now, that you do it the best time is now.Ashley: Yeah, I think it was helpful that my mentor also was involved with their neighborhood, like they're doing it, I've been involved in community and i know the fruits of it. It's helpful to be reminded that it's good and my eyes were just stuck on ensuring that I did everything that I thought I needed to do to support her. It was kind of like with blinders on just missing like the biggest piece of providing her abundant community now and making those connections.Katie: Well what I love about this too is that it's a metaphor for most people's lives, whatever that thing is that you're trying to do the best at, do right at is preventing you from just living and usually that is all you need to be doing. But we're going, we're trying to succeed or we're trying to reach these different heights that have these requirements and steps along the way.Ashley: And then we reach those and there's more. Yeah, we're on like the treadmill of the institution and instead of getting invited out of that and saying ok I'm also going to look for something outside of those boundaries to build my life on is huge.Katie: So what is at stake for you for your family if you don't make an effort then to get off the treadmill? If you don't make this effort to connect to the people around you?Ashley: My daughter being isolated as she gets older and I mean for a girl who is in my bones to know the joy of community that's just not an option. So it makes me really sad to think of her facing isolation when it's not in her bones either.Katie: Were you getting a glimpse of that already? I mean she's really young, were you already feeling like that was part of your lives or becoming part of your lives?Ashley: Well interestingly I was going to a lot of different community things, events and stuff and we were the only ones there who had a child with a disability and I was like I know that's that is not always the case but in the unique places that I was that was the case. So one I thought it was important that I was there and two I just hate that that's the culture that that's set out for families for anyone that's marginalized, right?Katie: The culture being we don't go to ordinary places in the community.Ashley: Yeah being like, well the culture being you're welcome if you are a certain way.Katie: Yes so the culture speaks more towards the families of and unwelcoming sense to say like there's a group for that and it's over there.Ashley: Yeah I think one thing was we belong and we're going and she was really young so I mean when you go to a six month old story time it's fine. Difference is more evident as kids age but I think so kids get older it probably would be more challenging to face that head on for the first time without having some understanding and foundation in kind of what do we believe about this what do we believe is true.Katie: As you grow into connections in your neighborhood do you think you're kind of heading off that uncomfortable feeling in the community when you, as your daughter does get older?Ashley: Yeah it's interesting because we have two or three intervention specialists in our neighborhood. So you can always tell when people have a predisposed idea and so you know you just meet those in conversation and bring to the conversations what you believe in small snippets over time. But yeah I think we have work to do and I think our daughter will lead the way in that with our support. So I think the biggest thing I think maybe it was a quote I read from Starfire, you guys were quoting someone that talked about when you toddle, have people who have known you since you've toddled. Do you remember that quote?Katie: David Pitonyak, “Who holds your story?”Ashley: They'll be like that's.. You know we know her, yeah?Katie: Yes. Ending on a piece of hope what is one hope that you have for your family in the next ten years that has to do with your community building work?Ashley: I hope that we establish rhythms with our neighbors that go on year after year and that we know one another's stories. And when my neighbor is sick I know what to make him because I know what he likes, you know, just the good life of community. And if my daughter is out and she isn't supposed to be out then they know me and they know where to bring her, or that she gets invited to the pool party across the street. Just the basic stuff, nothing extravagant but maybe extraordinary in this time, yeah. Katie: Yeah that is extraordinary, is there anything else you would want to say?Ashley: I don't think so.Katie: Ok I love that, thank you.

In today's episode, we will be discussing a very important topic that is near and dear to me, Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), and anxiety in our youth. I am lucky enough to have Katie Tolley back on the show. Katie was part of Episode 19: What is Integrative Health? Katie Tolley is part of the team at Turning Point Health Center, which has offices in Annapolis and Columbia, Maryland. She also runs a health and wellness consulting business, KT Consulting. Katie is a Pediatric Nurse Practitioner and child and adolescent mental health specialist. What makes this all even more amazing is that she started learning much more about nutrition and integrative medicine just before her son was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of eight. Get ready for a fascinating and informative discussion with Katie! Hey there! Welcome to the Alexa Z show! I am so excited to have Katie here today! The topic today is ADD, anxiety in the youth. I am excited but also a little anxious to discuss this topic because my youth was filled with anxiety. Also, many of my clients have children who also suffer from anxiety.   Alexa: Can you explain the difference between ADD and ADHD?   Katie: This topic is so widely talked about, but it is still very misunderstood. I shared an article with some friends yesterday about the aspects of ADD and ADHD and how it affects children. Every day there is another question or another topic that relates to ADD and ADHD in children.   So, to answer your question, on ADD, ADHD, and anxiety, how are they the same and how are they different.   ADD- Attention Deficit Disorder. ADHD- Attention Deficit Hyper-activity Disorder Diagnostically, we refer to all as ADHD with or without hyperactivity. The difference can be as simple as whether the child displays hyperactivity or not. When we do not see the outward hyperactivity (fidgeting, doodling, inability to sit still), the child is suppressing/internalizing the hyperactivity. Also, outward hyperactivity can turn into inward anxiety.   Alexa: Even if somebody had ADHD, it doesn't matter. The most important thing is that we are discussing ADD today. So, there are anxieties that are not ADD. Katie: Absolutely! The everyday life of a modern-day teen can cause anxiety. There is a lot of pressure to get good grades, perform well in sports, perform in extra-curricular activities, get into college, and sometimes to have a job. All of the pressures cause these kids a lot of worries. Screen-time, diet, and sleep also play a huge role in anxiety in our youth. Often, anxiety is misdiagnosed as ADD.  Alexa: As a parent, how do you know that something is going on with your child? How can parents identify there is something serious going on versus regular daily stresses? Katie: Some kids do just put pressure on themselves. It is normal for a three-year-old not to pay attention and to have difficulty focusing. When the inability to focus or pay attention interferes with daily living, such as the ability to learn, the ability to nourish themselves, the ability to get ready to do an activity, sports, or church, that is when it becomes a serious issue. The symptoms such as fidgeting, inability to focus, or distractability become interferences in the accomplishment of being a successful human being; this is when we enter the diagnostic level.   Alexa: What is the root cause of ADD and anxiety? Where does it come from? Katie: Do we all have a little bit of ADHD? I say absolutely. Let's use a scale of 1 to 10 to determine our levels of ADHD. Many of us walk around the world at the level of 2 or 3 simply because of screens, jobs, and schedules; it is easy to be distracted because our minds are thinking of multiple things at once. Multitasking is a perfect example of ADHD. You try to go from one thing to another, but you get distracted. Multitasking can be a little difficult.   Alexa: For more on this, listen to my podcast episode on multitasking.   Katie: The root cause can be the inflammatory process inflammation,  systemic inflammation,  Inflammation from: different environmental sources,  inflammation caused by  food,  pathogens,  toxins,  metals,  chemicals.   When the inflammation affects the brain, it is called neuroinflammation. When we see symptoms similar to ADHD, anxiety, ADD, we sometimes wonder if it is ADHD, anxiety, ADD, or are these symptoms telling us about something else.   Alexa: What are some components of inflammation? From the standpoint of ADD, what kind of inflammation are we talking about? Katie: Inflammation in the brain can surface as hard to concentrate focused attention memory issues It is vital to address neuro-inflammation in our youth because it will lead to disease processes as they age. Parkinson's Dementia Alzheimer's Alexa: Can you talk more about neuro-inflammation? Katie: Neurotransmitters that play a significant role in ADHD, anxiety, and ADD are dopamines and serotonin. Dopamine is our focus neurotransmitter and helps with memory. Serotonin affects our mood and sleep. If we are not sleeping well, we will have trouble focusing. If we don't have the right balance of serotonin, it will affect our mood and can lead to anxiety and depression issues. The effects of inflammation on our neurotransmitters do not start in the brain; the inflammation begins in the stomach.   Alexa: 50 percent of our dopamine and 90 percent of serotonin starts in our gut. Gut doctors are addressing gut issues, and brain doctors are addressing brain issues, but it does not seem like many doctors are putting all the health issues of their patients together.  Katie: If you are in a particular discipline, you learn that discipline very well, and you don't necessarily connect the other health systems. In integrative medicine, we link all the health systems together. You are correct in that serotonin comes from the gut. Serotonin helps with anxiety. Serotonin also creates melatonin. If we have inflammation in the stomach, and we don't have proper serotonin levels, we will have issues with anxiety, depression, and sleep. Dopamine is made in the gut, dependant on nutrition. Dopamine converts to norepinephrine and epinephrine, which is our energy. If our dopamine is not converting to norepinephrine and epinephrine, then we have a lot of fatigue, physical and mental. Metal fatigue plays a huge role in your memory, focus, concentration. When you are fatigued, hyper-activity may kick in because your body is trying to wake itself up.  Alexa: Can you talk about nutrition? Where do parents start? Katie: So many people are concerned with eliminating things from their diets. I like to start with what we should add to our diets. It is easy to think, just avoid the foods that bother us! We really need to add nutrition that helps to convert our serotonin into melatonin and dopamine into norepinephrine and epinephrine. Even before I see a patient, they can help themselves by taking: Omega 3 Vitamin D Probiotic Magnesium  Vitamins B-complex It is not always as simple as adding the above list into your health routine. Some people may have sensitivities. It is essential to see an experienced professional to help you navigate down your health path. Alexa: You mentioned Lyme and Mold. We talked about inflammation, and the next thing is toxicity.   Katie: When we identify the root causes of inflammation, we can determine what is causing all the symptoms. I believe that ADHD as a group of symptoms that are warning us that something more serious could be going on in our health. When we don't address those symptoms, we become sicker over time. When I first start evaluating a patient, I always check if the patient may have Lyme disease or is the patient getting ill from mold because both have a significant neurotoxic component. Mold and Lyme disease are relatively new to the world of medicine. Chemicals, metals, and other environmental toxins also lead to neuroinflammation.   Alexa: Where is all the mold coming from?  Katie: Mold comes moisture. If you do a google search on where to find mold, it will say food and water-damaged buildings. Here, in the Mid-Atlantic region, our schools are very old and water damaged, so our kids are exposed to those toxins all day long. Alexa: What about drugs?  Katie: When ADHD was first diagnosed, it was revolutionary when Ritalin came about. In past generations, ADHD went undiagnosed. Awareness of ADHD was not prominent, even though many kids displayed symptoms for ADHD. Instead, kids were seen as lazy, failures, unmotivated, and had no ambition. Prescription drugs such as Adderall, etc. can be helpful. Early in my career, I found that it was challenging to find the right medication for children. The more I learned about integrative medicine, the more I believed that addressing the root cause is imperative. We can prescribe medication that helps elevate dopamine so that the patient can focus. Still, the cause of the inflammation is going to continue to assault the dopamine levels—resulting in the medication and the inflammation to cause a seesaw effect with the patient's dopamine.  Alexa: I work with a lot of people with anxieties, many of who are on anxiety medication. I am not against medication. I wish that people who do need prescriptions have them, and people who don't need them should not be prescribed any.   Katie: I have a patient who is in her mid-teens. She has a lot of anxiety. When she first came to me, she was on heavy-duty anti-anxiety/anti-depressant medications. Some of them were under the label of anti-psychotic. Unfortunately, kids who do not find success with anti-anxiety medication end up on anti-psychotic drugs as an anti-anxiety medicine. I first started to help her address her inflammation through supplements, diet, meditation, psychotherapy, and off of the heavy duty-medication. She continued to have some issues, so I prescribed her a small dosage of Prozac. When we talk about anxiety, we are talking about serotonin. We have to address the gut issues but, at the same time, treat the anxiety to help patients get by day to day. The combination of a little bit of Prozac and integrative therapies, my patient is going to school every day on time, compared to the year before, where she would barely make it day to day. All the heavy-duty medication she was on did not help her because the root cause of the inflammation is always going to win over drugs.  Alexa: Some of my listeners may be thinking, do I have this? Did I pass it to my children? Katie: I have parents tell that they have ADHD, and their kid has ADHD, and there is nothing I can do about it. There is a substantial genetic component. The genetics that you are born with does not dictate your health, the environment that you put those genetics in will dictate your health. You have total control over what your genetics do base on what you put in, on, and surround your body with. Epigenetics is a new field of study that has developed over the last 15-20 years. Epigenetics is fascinating.   Alexa: This makes so much sense and gives me so much hope. I recently did an episode of cognitive decline because my mom has a cognitive decline. I remember you saying; it is not all about taking bad things out, it's more about adding more good stuff in to remove the bad stuff.   Katie: That is correct. I have an example that we can relate to ADHD teens and your mom, who has dementia. Neuroinflammation that causes ADHD and anxiety is the same inflammation that causes dementia.  Neuroinflammation is a life span issue; if we don't address the problems while we are young, it can result in dementia as we age.   We need to add in to help the brain and neurotransmitters work:  B vitamins Omegas Be wary of all the health trends. For example, lowering cholesterol, taking cholesterol out of our diets has increased our neuroinflammation. Our bodies need cholesterol. Alexa: Is that because we are taking out all the good fats? Katie: Yes! We need to add Omega 3s back into our bodies. Rather than thinking about what we need to avoid, we should focus on what we should add back in to our bodies. It's not cut and dry. Alexa: This is awesome! I can look back now and see how everything was addressed regarding what I had going on as a kid and what my mother went through her whole life, I am really blessed because I did not know what to do and was accidentally introduced to meditation. My life consisted of exercise, eating right, and an enormous amount of meditation. Those were great nourishing distractions! The last thing I want to ask you is, should we be scared? As we have been talking, I have become less fearful and more excited for people to get to the root cause of what is going on with their kid.   Katie: I have a friend who listens to some of the things I tell him, some things I tell him are not main-stream. He meditates, but he doesn't do most of the other things I say to do. I love that you say that meditation is what helped you the most! This guy runs a business, but his health is awful! He isn't sure that integrative medicine is the way to go, but he meditates. We should absolutely not be scared. What we should do is be vigilant, aware, and learn about the topics of neuroinflammation, inflammatory substances, etc. We can reverse inflammation, decrease neuroinflammation; we can increase our focus; we can improve our ability to learn. We can get better. We can meditate. We can change what is going on in our brains. We change our environment, and we change our destiny.  Alexa: This has been absolutely fantastic! Resources: Turning Point Health Center Katie Tolley Consulting Katie Tolley Bio Alexa Z Meditates

Download the Pocketbook Guide: https://www.starfirecincy.org/guidebookTRANSCRIPT:Katie: Yeah so pivoting a little bit I'd like to talk about this idea that for people with disabilities especially because that's what we care a lot about at Starfire, that this connection to social services usually means a disconnection from community life.That it means a person getting kind of pulled off the path of community member and onto a path as a client. What can you say just initially about how that looks and how that works for people with disabilities?John: I learned a lot from people who are labeled disabled, I'm not the wise guy on this. My response is I've learned from people with the real experience. One of these people was a Canadian named Pat Worth. And Pat was a younger man when I first met him, maybe 25, rather tall. He had escaped from an institution for the developmentally disabled, big old fashioned institution. And he said to me, “You know I think, one of the things, not all but one of the thing we ought to do is to organize people who are labeled in local communities so they could have a strong voice. Not their parents, not the professionals, but them, me, right?” He said, “You know about organizing, will you come with me for a month across Canada and see if we can start little organizations in the major cities of people who could come together and become a voice for themselves?” And so we did that and we got started with a fair number of groups. They chose as a name People First. When we got done we ended up in Vancouver after a month Pat said to me, “Now I think you can finally understand that our problem is not that we are disabled, our problem is we are disorganized. And the answer for us is to be organized.” But he also recognized, “and become active in communities.”And I think initially that he had the idea that People First would be entry points into community life because they would be independent of agencies and systems.Once we understand what Pat understood, that what we call and label a disability is really a name for a lack of power to join everyday life. The lack of power to join everyday life. And Pat had discovered how to make that power when he escaped from the institution, right?So one of the basic things I think about the movement is, is everyday life goal? Is being a citizen in connection with others the place in life that you're trying to achieve? And Pat had that in mind when he formed the group, but he first thought we ought to get enough power to get free of people who were controlling us and then we would have the possibility of moving to the world where we were connected rather than disconnected, or disorganized.Another thing, one of my best friends, she passed away I think now three years ago, was another Canadian named Judith Snow. I think she was very famous in the United States too. And Judith was born so that she could only move her thumb and her face. And we became very, very close friends. She used to come and visit us for her vacation. And she told me one time she said, “You know it wasn't until I was thirty years of age that I really understood who I was.”And she said, “I had spent so much of my life being labeled and accepting the label and fighting the label but that didn't tell me who I was.” And then she said to me, “When I was thirty I had a revelation, and it is that I am exactly the person who God created me to be and therefore I have every reason in the world to participate in this world because I have God's gifts.”Now you don't have to put it in religious terms, you could say “I have gifts.” And so I think the relentless, relentless insistence that the critical question about somebody is not what's wrong. It is, what's their gift? And building a life out from their gift is the key to entering community.Katie: You know for listeners who don't know who Judith Snow is she is a pioneer really in education, in training programs, she's an author, she's written a lot of things and I actually had pulled a quote of hers leading up to this because I knew of your friendship with her.“A gift is a personal quality that when it's brought into relationships in a valued way allows opportunity to emerge.” - Judith SnowJohn: Oh boy, that's Judith. And Judith was a person who wanted to be a part of everyday life and I remember one time we have sort of a weekend home up in rural Wisconsin. She knew I was a fishermen and so she said to me, let's go fishing. And I didn't know about whether or not that was something that was going to be very good for her or if she'd really like it. But we went and the place we went to fish had some canoes and she said, well if I'm going to fish, I'll have to be in a canoe. And she was in a wheelchair. You know and the idea of getting her into that canoe seemed to me a little perilous. But she had an aid and we got into the canoe. You know they're a little tippy, I was very careful, a little afraid. And we went out together and I fished and she talked with me and watched and enjoyed the lake. And I caught more fish than I've ever caught before.And I thought you know, she made me a real fishermen by taking her adventure, desire to discover, to be a part of it all. And she brought me into that world, and see what a benefit I got?Katie: And those are exactly the gifts that she's talking about.John: Right.Katie: Yeah, I love the list that you share that she has, that she said the gifts that people with labeled with disability have. I'll link to that in the show notes for people to see but it's brilliant.One thing you mentioned when you were speaking about Pat's story that I want to go back to is that sometimes parents, in the time that Pat was advocating and starting People First, parents were actually getting in the way of people with disabilities being part of community life. And now today, what we're doing at Starfire is really putting families at the center of building community and we're asking families and parents to participate alongside their children with or without disabilities to be a part of effective community change. So how do you know when you're on the right track with that, as a parent, as a neighbor, as a connector, how do you know when you're on the right track with building community?John: You know that very idea is pioneering. I'm looking forward to learning from these families what kind of things they did, sometimes it might not have worked, I'd like to know that too. So I think I would probably approach the question you're asking the same way I would approach if you weren't say, anybody involved happened to have a label. And I would say that a family might first examine themselves in two ways: number one what do we all care about? What common interest do we have? And the second is: what gifts do we have? Those answers to those two questions are the keys to opening your access into community life.Because you'll usually find that almost any interest that people have there is some group, club, or association that is focused around that. So if you can come to that part of the communities' life with what makes the group work anyway, a common interest about the same thing, I think that's a pretty clear path to becoming engaged. Now you're not creating something anew but something new may grow out of that relationship, right? And the other possibility is your gifts as against your interests. Your gifts are key to your entry into community. So what do we have that we care about, and can share, can use as our key and if we have been great stewards of Christmas maybe we can bring more Christmas to the block than the block has had before. I think that's happened with one of your groups. So they're looking at what they have to offer as the starting point that would involve other people who are attracted to that. Now, there aren't a lot of people sitting around thinking, “Gee, I'd like to have a better Christmas.” But when a group of people offer them a better Christmas, right? All of a sudden they're attracted. And that's what makes almost all groups work.Natural groups, clubs, groups and associations in neighborhoods are groups of people who are together for one or two reasons or both. Number one they care about each other, number two they care about the same thing.Very often the way you come to care about one another is you get together because you care about the same thing. And then your care for each other grows. So those are the avenues I think of, what's the ramp into the community? And it's interests and gifts. And your honest conviction that you have something to offer, and not that the community will solve your problems.You have something to offer. Everybody does. I've never met anybody who didn't have something to offer.Katie: So it sounds like you're on the right track as long as you are using gifts as your north star and you're focusing on that and the minute you start to veer off into some other direction maybe around your empty half or the problems, or going toward the service to fix things then you're kind of veering away from the path.John: Yes, excellent summary.Katie: One of the things that you worked on in Chicago was a project called Logan Square. You were the principal investigator in this what became a publication written by Mary O'Connell. And in this introduction Mary starts to describe the myths of the ideal of a small town past where “people sipped lemonade together on the front porch, watched out for the neighbors kids, shared the works of the town and the fruits of their gardens.” And I think there's a common argument, especially today, we're very aware of how the way things used to be is oftentimes mythologized, you know, things were way worse back then for people who were marginalized typically who are left out typically. People with disabilities, people of color, people who are part of the LGBTQ community, people who are typically just like I said left out of communities. So when we're talking about community building are you trying to get back to the way things were, or how do you marry those two ideas? Because I know you worked a lot with civil rights in your career?John: Well I'm not sure they're two things. I think people who are concerned about civil rights are concerned about equality and they're overcoming formal ways of exclusion. So you can't discriminate against me when I eat or when I'm in a restaurant or when I'm seeking housing. Those are formal ways of overcoming exclusion. But the law can't reach to a local community that may be exclusive, right? You can't pass a law saying you can't be exclusive here folks. You've got to include everybody.So I think our asset based development effort is always circumscribed by something that Judith said, and she was one of our best faculty members.She said, “It's our job to ensure that there's always a welcome at the edge. That exclusion is not what binds us together but invitation and welcome is what binds us together.”I think that the idea of “civil rights” works as a means of dealing with formal structures and systems - but it is invitation and inclusion that works in the space that isn't the formal world.Katie: It's so interesting how you just put that because it goes back to what you said about police officers, we need to generate safety in our own communities. They can't be the only answer, and same with laws, laws can't be the only answer in creating equality or inclusivity. We have to be the inviters and conveners.John: People of color, people with labels of any kind live in a world where the majority or at least a large number of people, do not respect them. And laws will not produce respect. But if somebody on a block says, I know this person who's been on the margin and they have something to offer, come on in, we need you and that gets shared. Then you begin to see respect. And it's the building of respect I think that is very much a word that says, we want you because you are valued, we know you have something to offer.Katie: That's beautiful. I'd like to just end with one final kind of question and it's something that I like to end on usually is hope but I think too we need change and sometimes when you end on hope it doesn't motivate people to do anything on their own. So I'd like to motivate people today with this question. What is the most urgent call to action that you think we have today as citizens?John: Know your neighbor. Start at home. Margaret Mead said that all change starts with small groups of people. It doesn't start out there it starts in here. So just historically if you want to change things, go next door, start there.

Wisconsinite's love the outdoors. But for families, it can be challenging to find the time for adventures while balancing responsibilities at home. John Stellflue, a Sun Prairie resident and avid outdoorsman, recently headed out for the youth hunt with his nephew – on his wedding anniversary. How did he pull that off? Compromise and respect. From the day they said I do, John and his wife, Caralyn, have had a few simple rules to balance his love of the hunt and their marriage.Listen to the latest episode of Wild Wisconsin -- Off the Record as we sit down to learn a bit more about those rules and how John is able to balance his outdoor lifestyle with the rest of life in general.------------------------------TRANSCRIPTANNOUNCER:  Welcome to Wisconsin DNR's Wild Wisconsin "Off the Record" podcast. Information straight from the source.[00:00:09] KATIE GRANT: Welcome back to another episode of Wild Wisconsin "Off the Record". I'm your host, DNR's Digital Media Coordinator, Katie Grant. Here at the DNR, we use social media to help inform the public about the many facets of Wisconsin life that we touch on a daily basis. It's also a great source for us to hear your Wisconsin stories.[00:00:35] One of those stories came from John Stellflue, a Sun Prairie resident who tagged us in a Facebook post about heading out for the youth hunt with his nephew... on his wedding anniversary. John and his wife, Carolyn have from the beginning of their marriage, had a few simple rules in place to ensure he'd be able to hunt and fish as often as possible.[00:00:56] We sat down to learn a bit more about those rules and how John is able to balance his outdoor lifestyle with the rest of life in general. So sit back and listen in.[00:01:05] JOHN STELLFLUE: My name's John Stellflue. Born and raised in Wisconsin. I'm a lifelong outdoorsman. Hunting, fishing... everything Wisconsin. You know, ultimate dream is to be able to live by doing something in the outdoors. You know, unfortunately, not unfortunately,  I mean, I have a job now, but it'd really be cool if someday I could you know, just make a living, doing what I love, you know? In the meantime I work hard and weekends and vacations are mainly spent hunting and fishing, you know... all Wisconsin stuff.[00:01:45] I've been fortunate to get a bear tag. A few years back I got a bear.  Deer, turkey,  lots of fishing. Many, many years it was almost exclusively musky fishing. Kind of graduated now into doing a little bit, a little bit more multi-species things, but I still mainly musky fish. But,  many years I was a Hunter Education Instructor.[00:02:09] I haven't done that in a long time, but I miss that. So that's a little bit about myself. [00:02:15] CARALYN STELLFLUE: And I'm Carolyn Stellflue.  Like John, lifelong, Wisconsin resident. In fact, we grew up in the same town. I am not the outdoors person, at least not his kind of outdoors person. I mean, I love my gardening and walking and stuff like that, but I don't hunt.[00:02:36] I hunted once. I do like to go fishing with him, but yeah, I'm a little different type of an outdoor person. [00:02:42] KATIE: Fantastic. So you guys recently celebrated a 30th wedding anniversary, correct? [00:02:49] CARALYN: 31 [00:02:49] KATIE: 31?[00:02:50] JOHN: 31. Yep. 31. 1988. [00:02:53] KATIE:  All right:[00:02:54] JOHN: We're rocking the national average every day we get up.[00:02:58] KATIE: There you go. How did you guys meet?[00:03:00] JOHN: How does anybody meet in Wisconsin? In a bar. [Laughs} Yeah. I was, one of us was making a pool shot... she was going to make a pool shot. And then she asked me what my advice was and I really had no advice. She thought I was cute. So...[00:03:20] KATIE: The rest is history. When we talked John, you said, I knew I wanted to spend the rest of my life with Carolyn as long as I could hunt and fish that entire time.[00:03:33] So, [To Caralyn] you said you're not quite as outdoorsy as John.[00:03:36] CARALYN:  No. [00:03:37] KATIE: Have you come further than you were when you first met? [00:03:41] CARALYN: Well yeah, cause I think that my not being the same type of outdoorsy he is probably just a different generation. Like I was around hunting. My brother's hunted, my dad hunted, my uncles. I mean, I knew that, you know, when hunting season was and pheasant, my dad fished, my uncles fish.[00:03:58] I was around all of that, but I was a girl. And I don't know they just never took me along as much. Took my brothers, but, you know, not so much me. Then when John and I got married and we started going... we started going camping before we even got married. And then we bought the boat the year that Carissa was born or a little bit before.[00:04:21] And so, yeah, that's when I started, you know, doing any of that kind of stuff at all was after we got married. [00:04:27] KATIE: So you said musky fishing. What are your other absolute Wisconsin outdoors favorites. [00:04:35] JOHN: So Whitetail hunting of course, but a couple of years ago I was lucky enough to draw a bear tag. And that to me was probably one of the coolest things I've ever done in a Wisconsin woods.[00:04:48] I did a DIY hunt. I spent that whole summer driving from, you know, we lived down here near Madison driving to Rusk County. I mean I get home from work Friday night, throw the gear in the truck and I... from the 4th of July on, I was gone every single weekend baiting bear. And then I just stayed in a tent and camped.[00:05:08] I left my boat right up there so I could fish, but we saw, I saw a fair number of bear during my hunt. I was able to get, you know, your standard run of the mill middle of Wisconsin bear. Not a giant, but you know, shot it with my bow. So I was excited. That was fun. That was something I really, really enjoyed, but you know, the problem is, is everyone wants to do it. And it's, you know, seven, six to seven, eight years to get a tag. But...[00:05:29] CARALYN: Yeah. Interesting story about getting the tag. [00:05:32] KATIE: Alright, go on. [00:05:34] CARALYN: Because I don't remember. He maybe had mentioned wanting to go bear hunting and stuff. I don't recall if he had or not.[00:05:44] JOHN: I probably didn't.[00:05:45] CARALYN: Well, if it was the seven year thing he could have and I could have forgot, but, and then I don't know where you were... [00:05:53] JOHN: I was at my mom's. [00:05:54] CARALYN: Oh, okay, because we were talking on the phone and I had grabbed the mail out of the mailbox and I was kind of flipping through it as I was talking to him and I'm like... what is this?[00:06:05] And I looked at it or I looked at my phone and I like, did you apply for a bear tag? And he's like, why is there one there? And I'm like, yeah, it appears to be a bear tag here. [00:06:18] JOHN: So my kill tag showed up in the mail and I figured I was a year out yet.  You know, so I was I was a little early and and I'm like, you gotta send a picture of it, you know?[00:06:29] So I made her, I made her take a picture and send it to me and I was so excited. So then I said to her, I said, didn't I tell you about this?  She said, No, you never told me about this. [00:06:39] CARALYN: Didn't I tell you about this wink, wink. [00:06:41] JOHN: Which that's something that happens as a man, a husband, guy like me who who's been married for 32 years.[00:06:49] Cause if you truly told your wife everything that goes on in the outdoor world, that marriage would have ended many years ago. I've always said my biggest fear in life is that if I die before her... she sells all my hunting and fishing gear for what I told her I paid for it.[00:07:05] KATIE: Well that perfectly leads us to my next question. So early on you guys set some ground rules to make sure that John could still get outdoors. So... One, he had to hunt and fish where he said he was going to hunt and fish so that you would know where he was in case of an issue... That he would always come home at the agreed upon time. That he would always wear his safety harness when he was in a tree.[00:07:29] That he would never spend ridiculous amounts of money on equipment without discussing it with you first...[00:07:34] CARALYN: Clearly he's broken that rule. [00:07:38] KATIE: And that holidays, anniversaries with one exception, the youth hunt, birthdays, families, all of that stuff comes before hunting and fishing. Were these the original rules that you guys set or have you guys added to them or altered them kind of throughout the years? [00:07:54] CARALYN: No, it was pretty much the original. And honestly you got to remember too, 31 years ago, there was no cell phones. I mean, that sounds so bad to say, but there weren't. And so, I mean, that was very much... those first rules were very much a safety issue and we lived in our hometown. We..my sister and brother in law own a farm. John hunted on a friend's farm. [00:08:24] JOHN: Well, a couple different farms, several places early on. [00:08:27] CARALYN: Yeah. There were several places to hunt and I didn't want him ever leaving, not coming back. And then I'm like, okay, which of the six places...[00:08:35] KATIE: Could he possibly...[00:08:36] CARALYN:  Could he possibly be? Right. So, I mean, it was very much a safety thing that was first and foremost on my mind and I don't, I mean, I don't think we've ever really revised anything too much. It was, those are just practical concerns. [00:08:51] KATIE: Well, we certainly appreciate the safety aspect of that. [00:08:54] JOHN: I lived up to my end of the deal, except once. [00:08:57] KATIE: Why don't you tell us a little bit about the, the one time that I hear you broke these rules?[00:09:02] JOHN: I have a man room at home and there is one piece of furniture in there that I absolutely despise. I hate it. I can't stand it. But I will never take it out of the man room because that furniture is the end result of the one day that I didn't come home when I said I would. So I was with a  good friend of mine and his cousin, and we were musky fishing up in northern Wisconsin. We'd been fishing all weekend. We started to fish Friday night, fish all day Saturday and without asking what time we are going to be home on Sunday, I said to her, I said, well I'm sure he's going to be wanting to heading back to Madison by, you know, probably noon. This was when he lived in Rhinelander.[00:09:42] And so I said, I'm sure I'll be back, you know, right around noon. And so we get fishing and I mean this guy's a machine. I mean, he's got he, this guy fishes. I mean, I, we did one trip in a boat where we fished 18 hours. And I'm not exaggerating. 18 hours in a boat. [00:09:58] KATIE: Wow. [00:09:59] JOHN: Yup. And so this guy, I mean, back then we could fish and we could fish long hours.[00:10:05] And he's like, I got nothing. We got on the water Sunday morning. I said, I've got nothing to get home for. He said, I'm going to fish til at least dark. And I'm going, and we all rode out to the landing together and I'm going, this ain't gonna be good. And I finally talked him into coming off the water. We weren't having much luck that day thank God. If the fish were going  I'd probably still be on the water. We caught one early in the day and then it just kind of died. We couldn't get nothing to going so it was probably 5:30 or six o'clock I finally got off the water. [00:10:31] CARALYN: Well, I think it might've been earlier than that even. I seem to recall only like three in the afternoon.[00:10:36] JOHN: Okay. So, but even then I knew I was in trouble. And the funny thing is, is we're driving back into town. And at that time, my personal vehicle, I had a St. Croix rod sticker on the back of it. And we're driving into town, and I see my wife and my two daughters pull out of the grocery store and they stop at a stop light.[00:10:58] And we slide in right behind them and my buddy who kept me out way past my curfew said, Hey, there's a Saint Croix rod sticker on the back of that Ford Explorer right there. And then my wife turns around and flips us the bird. And my buddy says, my buddy says... That lady just whipped us the bird. I said, yes, that's my wife. I am really, really late. [00:11:23] CARALYN: From my perspective. We were sitting at the lights and I knew they were right behind us. And so I'm looking in the rear view mirror and I see this timid little man waving really little cutesy and I, and that's when I lost it. and that's when I flipped him off, and then just continued to, I must have went somewhere.[00:11:51] JOHN: Yeah. You did. [00:11:52] CARALYN: I think I knew how mad I was. I figured I'd better go for a drive.[00:11:55] JOHN:  So, this green cabinet that I mentioned  at the start of the story had been sitting in a box in our sun room for, I don't know, most of the summer. And so I walked inside and I'm like hey, she's not here. I got to get this cabinet put together and maybe that will save the day. And I had it about half together when she got home, I did finish it. And you know as mad as she was, and I don't blame her for being mad, we, you know, as we tell this story now we're laughing about it, but I learned my lesson then and there. And from that day on I was always home when I said I'd be home so...  [00:12:31] CARALYN: And I did get the cabinet put together on the deal. So...[00:12:34] JOHN:  And we still, me and my buddy, we still talk about that story to this day. So yeah, that's a great story.[00:12:41] KATIE: Those are some of the best ones. Talk to me about taxidermy in the house.[00:12:50] CARALYN: I am not a fan. And this, I might, this might've been one of my rules even when we started, because I don't remember ever really agreeing to any sort of taxidermy.  It's just not my thing and that was before I knew what it costs... for people to have taxidermy done because I was, I was reasonably stunned at, and this is with the John factor in there.[00:13:19] I'm quite sure what I've been told a lot of those things cost, is not what they actually cost. [00:13:25] John: I think I've been, I think I've been pretty truthful about the taxidermy. When we lived in Rhinelander my job brought me down here. And so we commuted and I ultimately bought the house and I lived down here for a number of months before I bought the family down.[00:13:41] And as I was commuting back and forth, I would bring car loads of stuff down. Well, one of the things I just, I mean, the easy stuff to bring was all my stuff, you know? And so I was bringing my taxidermy down. All of a sudden, just all my taxidermy was going up and I sent her a picture and I said, I think I just claimed the man room.[00:14:01] So that was one story. Then there was another story. And this was one where I truly asked for forgiveness instead of permission. A number of years back, I shot an extremely rare turkey. It is called a Smoke Phase Turkey. And what it  is... it's a turkey that doesn't have any black pigment in it. No, I'm sorry. It doesn't have any brown pigment in it. Doesn't have any brown. And I mean, if I see a wild turkey and was, what color does it, I mean, it pretty much looks brown. Right? [00:14:31] KATIE: Right. [00:14:31] JOHN: So this turkey is void of any brown. So it's white and blue and black. The back, the back of the turkey is iridescent blue and theres...[00:14:44] the rest of the turkey is white and black. And when I shot it, I really didn't know what I had. I was by myself. And I shot it right away in the morning. And I come out of the woods and I texted the group I was with, I said, oh, I shot a black and white Jake. Well, they thought, you know, black and white, meaning, you know, run of the mill, you know, standard Jake it's true.[00:15:03] That truly was a color. And so my buddy shot a bird and he come out and he said where's that bird you shot. And I told him, and then he said, well, let me see it. And I held it up in a way... I held it by the feet and the wings kind of fell open and he took a picture of it and he said, He said, oh my God John, he said, this thing's beautiful. Look at this picture. And so he showed me the picture and I said, I'm getting that mounted. And immediately we were making arrangements, calling taxidermists and you know, to do a full body mount of it. And I never even asked her. I didn't even... that one I just, I just, she said, what are you doing to that turkey?[00:15:38] I don't want no stupid fan hanging in the house. Well, good. You're not going to get a stupid fan hanging in the house you're going to get a full bird hanging in the house.[00:15:46] CARALYN: And I know that was a no, I mean I might have bent on deer heads, but I know I never wanted a bird. That is, oh my gosh. Beautiful is not the term that comes to my mind. It is... obnoxious. I keep hoping the cat will eat it and the cat hasn't come through for me. My one funny taxidermy story that I, uh...well, when we lived in Rhinelander, we rented. When we first moved up there, we rented a house so we only had, um, we had two bedrooms living room and dining room. It was just the first floor of a house and we had our two daughters that shared a bedroom and it wasn't a whole ton of room as they got older and bigger toys. And we'd given one of them a bouncy rocking horse type of deal and it wouldn't fit in their bedrooms so it was out in the front room of the house. And I don't know why. Well, I know that the mounts were all out there cause that's where there room for them, but why they were right above that bouncy horse I'll never know. And I think it was both of them on the horse really bouncing and the next thing I know the deer head is on the floor and it was one that had a nice drop tine, which promptly snapped off. And I can't say that I felt real bad about it. [00:17:10] JOHN: The good thing is, it broke off clean so it was very easily fixed. You can't even tell it, so... [00:17:16] CARALYN: Yeah and as my other little way of dealing with the taxidermy in the house, I always hang Christmas bulbs off of the...[00:17:26] KATIE: There you go.[00:17:27] CARALYN: Off of the horns. [00:17:28] KATIE: So your daughters, did they ever get in on, on the outdoor life with you at all? [00:17:32] JOHN: So they did. Neither one of them so much anymore. Carissa is our oldest and she got into hunting. Not, you know, not avid, but she'd go with me. She didn't like getting up early. That was  one thing. She didn't like the kick of the gun.[00:17:50] You know, those were the two things. But, she loved what I have now moved to. She loved that part of the hunt, which is the memories that comradery, the friends, the people you go with. And as a young girl for her to pick up on that and for her to enjoy that aspect of it as much as she did was always pretty special to me.[00:18:12] That was back before my dad passed. He was, he was alive and then there was a landowner... we hunted on his farm and, you know, sadly they're both gone now. But she hunted for four years with me. And prior to her fifth year of hunting, our landowner, who was a family best friend, he died very suddenly, very unexpected, and I'll never forget the phone call.[00:18:35] I was actually in my boat. I just backed the boat in and I just got up musky fishing and I don't remember. I was in, I just got done with a guide trip and I was in retying and sharpening hooks and my mother called and she said that he had passed and I went inside and I was crying and they said, what's wrong? And I said, well, Nels died. And immediately, Nels was a gentleman on the farm, immediately Carissa said, I'm not hunting anymore. So I give it a few weeks, maybe even a month. Then I said, what's the deal? You know, she's no Dad I'm done. I'm done. And she's never hunted since. You know, so... [00:19:10] CARALYN: Nels made things pretty special for her though too.[00:19:12] JOHN: He did.[00:19:13] CARALYN: The one year he gave her, that was the, was the first year she hunted and he gave her this deer camp award. He typed it up and had a picture...[00:19:21] JOHN: She got a deer her first year. [00:19:23] CARALYN: Yeah. And she was allowed to bring beers to them. All these little things that were her deer camp duties. I mean he made it real special for her.[00:19:32] JOHN: So she hunted for a couple of years. And then my youngest really got into fishing. Especially when she was younger and... oh, she lives in town here still. But she's busy and we were going to fish all this summer and of course I'm up early and they're not. And then we can never get the scheduled arranged.[00:19:47] But when we were younger, one of her, one of her and one of my favorite things, one of our favorite things, she'd call me in my office or on my cell phone. And she would say, Dad what are we having for supper? And I said, Oh, I don't know. And, and she said, well, let's have nibblers. So what nibblers were...that was bluegills. That's what you called them.[00:20:08] And we lived very, very close to Boom Lake in Rhinelander and there was one particular snag that I knew about, kind of way on the backside and up in the backwater and very few people ever went there. And you could go there in probably a half hour, 45 minutes, maybe an hour at the most. Her and I could get enough bluegill for the family to eat.[00:20:29] So I get home from work. I'd hook the boat up. We'd stop at a bait shop, buy a 36 count box of red worms and throw the boat in the water and go fish for literally 45 minutes to an hour. Come home, clean fish, and  we never froze fish. Ever. We just, we ate them all right away. [00:20:46] KATIE: The way that we heard about you guys was from a Facebook post about taking your nephew out for the youth hunt. Tell me a little bit about how you got, got into bringing him into the hunting world. [00:20:56] JOHN: Yep. So... Going back to what Carolyn said earlier. My brother-in-law is a dairy farmer...that's, Carolyn's sister is married to Mike and they're dairy farmers and they've got a very large dairy farm over to western Wisconsin.[00:21:12] And Mike is... Mike and his and his two boys run it now. So, and his two boys, our nephews, my one nephew, Jason, he has kids. Well, the youth hunt is right at a time where they're harvesting. They're there in the middle of chopping corn and nobody has time to take them. And so he's got his, his oldest son Johnny is now beyond the youth hunt, but I mentored him. And him and I shot several deer together.[00:21:45] Then Jason's next, next boy is Gunnar. And I mentored him this year. He shot a real nice nine pointer and he's got two more boys coming up, but the problem is those guys can't ever get out because they're harvesting. So they call me, Hey, can you take the guy's youth hunting? And you know, so I did.[00:22:02] And one of the first years I went, my brother-in-law Mike said, isn't it your wedding anniversary? I said, well, it's not today. It's tomorrow. And he said, all right, but how did you pull that off? I said, well, because I need to take Johnny, that's my nephew, I need to take him hunting, you know? And, uh, so.... She was gracious the first year, but then the second year she's like...they're not even your kids come on, you know? So we've kind of did an every other year thing,you know, ever since. And it's worked out well. So we've had fun with you with the youth hunt so... it's just, I just got to balance it between our anniversary and the youth hunt and God bless her for letting me kind of go every other year or so.[00:22:48] And that'll probably happen for a number more years yet cause Tristen and Caleb are coming up so there'll be... I'll have many more years of mentoring, which I love doing. It's absolutely... I was as excited for Gunnar to shoot that real nice nine pointer that he shot this year as I would have been to a shot at a giant 10 pointer.[00:23:06] KATIE: So, right, right. It's interesting that you are so accommodating to the anniversary aspect of it. So my Mom and... my Mom and myself both have October birthdays. And my dad goes out west duck hunting and pheasant hunting and whatever. And I have a memory of one birthday growing up where he was home because every single other one, it's the weekend of opening duck hunting out west and he would be gone every year, duck hunting.  But it was the best time because then Mom and I could just, we could go shop. We could do whatever. And Dad, wasn't there to say no. So it's cool that you guys kind of around the similar time of year  have that worked out. [00:23:44] CARALYN: Well, and we, that's kind of how we worked things out. Cause he... the year it did get tough when he was guiding. Because that was a lot of time gone. And then he also fished a league, musky fishing league when we lived in Rhinelander as well. But we did something similar where... it was a Tuesday night league. So the girls and I always knew that Dad was going to be fishing that night.[00:24:12] So we had, I think it was The Bachelor. I literally think it was like when The Bachelor first came out. Yeah. So Carissa and I and Katelyn knew that that was the night that we'd watch The Bachelor and we'd make up frozen pizza or something, you know? Well, cause John cooks as well, but yeah, maybe that's the trade off. You do all the cooking. I let you fish and hunt whenever you want but you do all the cooking. But you know, so the girls and I would do our own little thing, you know? And so, even though he was gone, we had the trade off of the girls night and something special for us. So...[00:24:44] KATIE:  So I hate to throw you under the bus again. [00:24:46] JOHN: Yep. That's fine. [00:24:47] KATIE: But a seven week old puppy? At the  start of deer season. What were you thinking? [00:24:53] JOHN: This one was bad. [00:24:56] CARALYN: I did bring that on myself. [00:24:59] JOHN: So we've always been dog people. In fact, one of my first memories with her as we went and picked out her very first dog together,and it was a mutt from our hometown and the dog's name was Duster, but it was the greatest dog ever. She was a great, great dog of ours, you know, and she lived a good life and, and we had a chocolate lab, which I actually, we actually adopted from one, from one of my guide clients. A guy that used to musky fish with me and a chocolate lab. Um, he was getting old and  he died and I said, okay, I'm picking a dog. I want a yellow lab. So Willie died in June. Yeah. Cause Willie died in June.[00:25:45] So we lost two dogs relatively quick. But Willie died in June and I said, well, and these two had already picked out a dog. They picked out a little one, which I never wanted that little dog, but he's now my best friend as well. [00:25:56] CARALYN: Larry, Larry's a 10 pound Chihuahua, but with a 50 pound attitude. So they had this little dog already in the house.[00:26:03] So we had a little dog, you know, just for a little while. And I said, well, I'm going to get a, I'm going to get a lab. And I looked all summer. I just didn't pull the trigger for whatever reason. And then it got into deer season and I just kind of had forgotten about it. And she saw on Facebook that these people had yellow labs for 150 bucks.[00:26:20] CARALYN: It was in our hometown.[00:26:21] JOHN:  In our hometown, right where I deer hunt because I don't deer hunt near here. I deer hunt over in western Wisconsin. Western Trempealeau County. And I said, well, I'm going to stop on my way home to look at these dogs. And so I had a bunch of cash on me and then I pulled in and I think she had three, three males left and in this one dog, he just would not get out from underneath my feet.[00:26:41] And it wasn't the one I had my eye on. I was looking at these two other ones, cause this dog was a runt. You know, I wasn't interested in him but he just wouldn't get out from underneath my feet. And so I brought, I brought him home and, and uh, the fact that he was a runt is beyond me because he's now 98 pounds.[00:27:00] But the worst part about it was I had identified two really large bucks that year and I was into it that year and I brought this dog home on November 7th and I had a bunch of vacation planned. And so it wasn't like I was just gone on the weekends. I mean, I think I was gone if you take November 7th to whatever last weekend of the gun deer season I bet, I was away from home, probably a dozen of those days.[00:27:29] So I got a seven week old lab and in the first 20 days of that dog being home I'm gone for a dozen of them. So I got home from gun deer season that, you know, Sunday, the last weekend of gun deer season. And I don't know if this was it's true, but this is what I remember. They met me at the door and they threw the dog at me and said, take care of this dog we're outta here. I mean that's kind of what I remember. I don't think that actually happened, but I mean, that's the vibe I got when I walked through the door. So there was no late season hunting for me that year, though it was me and Stormy after that. So, so that was, that was not a very nice thing to do.[00:28:10] CARALYN: And it wasn't, it's not that Stormy is a bad dog.[00:28:13] JOHN: It's a seven week old puppy thats a lot of work.[00:28:16] CARALYN:  You're outside every half hour and even doing that, he's peeing somewhere at some point.[00:28:24] KATIE:  Or finding the shoe to chew on.[00:28:27] CARALYN:  Yes. He's eaten a lot of shoes and always my shoes. [00:28:30] KATIE: Always. Do you guys have any final advice for people who are trying to figure out... okay, how do I balance this whole family life thing with their love and passion for the outdoors?[00:28:47] JOHN: Oh, it's just, there's one word it's... it's compromise. [00:28:50] CARALYN: And respect.[00:28:51] JOHN: Two words. Compromise and respect. Yeah. You know, I remember one year the girls were swimming. And when they were in high school I didn't get much deer hunting time cause they were swimming. And I remember getting up that morning. It was... let's just say November 3rd. I mean, it's right in the middle of, of the rut and I'm just thinking, oh my God, today's going to be great. This front blew through with a temp drop. We're going to have frost. We're going to have light westwinds. I mean, this is going to be, this is going to be great hunting and I, and we had to go to Stevens Point for a swim meet and I remember sitting there and I know Steve shot a big one that day. Brian shot a big one that day and I think Jordan shot a big one that day. And I'm at a pool in Stevens point, Wisconsin, not hunting, but I wouldn't have been any other place.[00:29:43] That's where I needed to be. And that's the thing that I think guys who that are as passionate as I am. And I really I've witnessed it in musky fishing. I've seen guys lose their family, lose their spouses, lose almost everything over a silly green fish. And as the person who was in the outdoors you have to keep it in perspective. And you'd have to keep it in perspective all the time, because even in, because it's the rut, because it's opening day, if there's other things going on at home and the plumbing's broke or, you know, just whatever, sometimes you got to step back as a hunter and fishermen and go, I'm not going to go today.[00:30:25] I, you know, I need, I need to be here, but, and you know, for what she did for me, she just never, ever said, you're not going. I don't want you to go. Yeah. Compromise and respect. I think that's, that's what it is[00:30:39] . CAROLYN: Well, have the conversation. We, we talked about it and granted, we were both kind of on the same page from the beginning, because like I said, we grew up in the same town and hunting was what it was. Everybody was used to it. I never expected that whoever I married wouldn't hunt. So that helped, but that said, we did talk about it. Because bow hunting is different. [00:31:04] JOHN: It's a big time commitment. [00:31:05] CARALYN: Yeah. Try it. If you are the non hunter, the non fishermen too, you give it a try. Maybe you'll like it.[00:31:12] I did try to go hunting one time and weirdly enough, for whatever reason it was the year I had our Carissa, our first daughter. Why I chose to go hunting when I, cause she was born October 24th, excuse me, August 24th. So it'd been the next season. Why I would choose to go hunting and when I have a baby at home.[00:31:30] It was such a blizzard that year. It was stupid. Cause I am, I know, no matter what hunting or fishing or anything, I'm a fair weather hunting or fishing or anything. But I went and I was... the firearm thing didn't bother me and we'd practiced and stuff like that, that I was all, it was used to that. But he literally just sat me where we thought would be a good spot. But even getting that far was bad enough cause I'm short and it was a lot of snow. And so we got as far as we could get and still be in the woods and he put me against the street. He was like, shoot anything that comes along. Which you gotta when you're first going out, you can't be picky.[00:32:12] And so I am watching and watching and all of a sudden I can hear something. So I start paying attention and sure enough, here comes this doe and I'm thinking oh no. And then here comes her fawns. I'm like, oh no, now I really can't shoot it, but I know he's coming behind them. So I am literally standing against that tree just going shoo, shoo, trying to make it go away. We enjoy going fishing together. [00:32:41] JOHN: Yeah.  You started that here later in life. And we had a ball this summer. Caught a lot of pilot fish's this summer. [00:32:47] CARALYN: Yeah. And in fact, I actually held my first fish of my own. I haven't baited my own hook yet, but I did hold that fish by myself. Never say never.[00:33:00] JOHN: Well, yeah, that's the other thing is try and go together.[00:33:05] CARALYN:  And he never pushed it. I didn't like it. I didn't go again, no big deal. Wasn't you know, but I gave it a try.[00:33:11] KATIE:  To hear more of John and Carolyn's stories, follow stage four outdoors on social media. We'll be back in two weeks with another great episode, featuring more inside voices on Wisconsin's outdoors.[00:33:23] Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss it. And while you're at it, leave us a review. Thanks for listening. 

This week Mr Franchise is joined by Katie So to discuss the most rushed hour of them all, Rush Hour 3 . There’s fun to be had as they karate chop this wooden blockbuster in half; discussing it all from the uninspired plot, to the lack lustre action, to a potential fourth instalment. Here's a link to a clip from this week's recommendation "Wellington Paranormal" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEqWaHMjDU Rate, Like , Subscribe and find us on: Twitter @Mrfranchisepod Itunes, Stitcher, Soundcloud + Many More Pod Apps @Mrfranchise Instagram @shoreloser

TRANSCRIPT:0:00 – 0:44Bridget: I'm Bridget Vogt and I have worked at Starfire for twenty years in a variety of ways.Katie: That's two decades. So that's a long time. What has been all the variety of ways?Bridget: When I first started it was just office help and doing the outings that we had during the evening and weekends. You know a few years after that we started a day program so I started that, doing the day program. A few years after that we started StarfireU, so I worked in both and then just StarfireU and now I am doing one-on-one work with people and their families.0:45 – 2:46Katie: What do you think has changed in the way that you show up to work from then and now, and what has stayed the same?Bridget: Well I'd say there's just a different way of showing up when you're starting your day with a room of 12 people or 15 or 20 people with disabilities versus showing up and talking to one person at a time. There's a much different energy, there's a different effort, there's a different priority that is just the reality of probably day program life. You know, you're hoping that everybody gets along and that they can say they had a pretty good day and I think the days of working with a group of people at a time it is more about being an entertainer and showing them a good time and keeping them happy and building them up. Now working just with one person at a time it is still about building them up and making sure they're confident but it's not quite the same, the word entertainer keeps coming to mind. The people who were really successful in the day program that keep coming to mind were the staff with big personalities who drew people in with just who they were naturally and they could almost perform, if that makes sense. They were a good storyteller or funny, all those things, and that's not necessarily as useful or needed with just one person. So you're still building into the person to help them understand who they are and that they're a good person, that they have gifts to give, what are they, and figuring all that stuff out. And that's kind of the biggest difference is working with one person and thinking.. You know.. Where do you belong... what do you do? Where are you going to be happy doing?Katie: Yeah, so it's a little bit more of an in-depth conversation when you're sitting with somebody, you don't need to be the entertainer. You need to be the deep listener and over-shadowing a person by being too enthusiastic or too much of the entertainer could give the opposite effect than when you're working with just one person at the time.Bridget: Yeah, I think that's possible. Like I definitely think that's happened, you know we're working to help people meet people and if you kind of take over and don't let that person who you're working with shine more than you than you're not doing a very good job.2:57 – 4:30Katie: Yeah, so you stayed through this change, and you've had to turn on different parts of you or skills/strengths that you have during the change, and so what's been really consistent about the work? Obviously, it's kept you here, doing it.Bridget: Well I think we have, one way or another, throughout these times — we did what we thought was best and that's still the case. I care a great deal for all the people we've met with disabilities out there. And to recognize that appealing to a group of people doesn't change what happens in their lives in ten years. Letting that sink in and figuring out how to do something that hopefully will mean something in ten years with or without my presence is the bigger key too. So I think that's what keeps me here, is the belief that what I'm doing is going to matter in ten years to these people that I know. Katie: So obviously like a deep well of love or care for people with disabilities is consistent in you, you showed up in both worlds with that, with that intention.Bridget: Yeah, yeah I'd say so. There wasn't a whole lot of outside forces drawing or keeping me. There are plenty of potentially simpler things to do out there in the world definitely probably more lucrative things to do out there in the world but that's not where my heart was or what I felt called to do. Annd Starfire seemed like a good place at the time when I started here.4:31 – 6:30Katie: Yeah, Starfire had something different even back then twenty years ago than other places, it was founded by family members who were looking for a better way and so that thread of intentionality and family driven-ness has kind of carried through.One of the things you told me before this podcast around building community was that If we want other people to learn how to build community or do it on their own we have to really learn how to do it ourselves. Take me back to when things did try to shift to Starfire being more of a community building place for people with disabilities to connect to the community — and what was your involvement in the community when that change started to happen?Bridget: You know, before anyone saw any changes at Starfire before it started to change Tim and I, mainly Tim, started doing a lot more learning around topics like asset-based community development (ABCD). And being introduced to some concepts that we had not heard of or knew anything about and kind of working through those and wrestling with some of the things we were learning with. You know if there was a belief that the community is the answer, it sounds great that the community can be the answer but we don't always see it. But part of why I think for us what we had to acknowledge was well our community is not our answer, we've lived in Bellevue for three years and we don't know anyone, we only know two of our neighbors and that's probably about it. And we go to work and then we come back and then we had some old friends from like college and high school and those are who we see and not our neighbors.That was sort of the beginning of noticing, we don't really know our neighbors so this idea of community being the answer is just ridiculous. But is it ridiculous or is it that we just haven't tried? And if this is possible, if community is the answer, then we probably need to figure out what community it is, and what does it look like and what are we doing to be active in our community. 6:31 – 7:06Katie: Describe Bellevue, describe what that neighborhood is like.Bridget: It is one square mile, in Kentucky, on the river.Katie: Is that it?Bridget: Yeah, one square mile.Katie: Oh wow.Bridget: You didn't know we were that little? So it's pretty small, what else would you say about Bellevue. It's overall a working class neighborhood.Katie: How many people in the one square mile?Bridget: I don't know.Katie: It's pretty concentrated, like there are a lot of houses.Bridget: Yeah, I mean it's urban. You know houses are very close together there's not a lot of yards.Katie: There's a big.. There's a great little main strip there with coffee shops and...Bridget: Yeah like your typical main street.Katie: Kind of on the river.Bridget: Close to it, yeah.7:07 – 9:16Katie: Ok, so when you're thinking back to that time and you're just learning these new concepts around community building and you're looking in you're neighborhood and you're like ok there's.. We don't have any connections here.. Did you have any revelations at that time or what started to shift and how did you start building community?Bridget: Tim was a little more, I know he had been to Peter Block and John McKnight and they had been talking about neighborhood interviews. Truly going and finding people and interviewing them and Tim did that. He was like, “Alright the challenge is I've got to meet five different people, I'm going to interview them on their gifts and talents,” and then he was like, “you should too.” And I said maybe in a more informal way.Katie: What was your hesitation around that?Bridget: Yeah, well it's weird right, like this is an awkward beginning of like ‘hey stranger' or someone that I've just seen in passing, ‘Could we sit down and I'll interview you?' I think anyone would say once they've done it it's not weird at all it's just the hurdle of asking. Because I think I did talk to a few people but I didn't… I would just kind of talk to them instead of like scheduling it. I would just kind of be in a conversation and kind of work my way through what the interview probably would be.Katie: So like what are your talents, interests, passions, skills?Bridget: Yeah what do you like to do?Katie: So you kind of start with the low hanging fruit, I already know them..Bridget: I started with the easy-peasy, ‘Hey friend that I already know' and then we started talking about doing a starting a community garden in Bellevue, I wanted to do it, one of the people we like already knew was interested in doing it and then that kind of grew out of there. Like ok throw it out to the masses, who would want to start a community garden?Katie: So once you started talking to neighbors you start to kind of plot ideas? I feel like that's kind of a natural thing that happens just with people, is once you get to talking you start talking about what would be great in our neighborhood? And that conversations just kind of naturally evolves right like, probably pretty informally like the way that your conversations evolved.Bridget: Yeah I think so, like what would you want to do? Oh do we have this here?9:17 – 12:36Katie: So did you find that there are people who are really driven/motivated to get something created off the ground like ‘ok we'll do all the plans for the garden' and then there are the people who step in once it's there and say ‘yeah we're going to establish this and make it set'?Bridget: I don't know, there were some people who were interested in the beginning but they had some pretty… They were randomly enough when I went to community garden training there were two other people that I never met from Bellevue.Katie: Is that how you got started was just to go and learn how to do it?Bridget: That was one of my commitments, is I said I'm going to well I thought that I would get one I would interested helpful practice probably. And all the like powers that be were very supportive like the neighborhood association the people that were there at the time, had talked about it but they've never done it and I'm like I'm really going to do it, I've already signed up for the class. And they were like sure, go for it, you know we'll support it and you can do it under the neighborhood association umbrella.Katie: Had you gardened before?Bridget: Just in the backyard a little bit, I mean I still would say I'm not an expert gardener. Whatever, you plant seeds that grow, maybe they don't, and that's ok you just. You just keep going and that's what's great about it because the weather is unpredictable, the season is unpredictable. There's no guarantee that just because you did it well last year you could do the exact... You could think you're doing the exact same thing and it's not.Katie: I like that approach, I really like that because I think there's a lot of wisdom in that for people who want to do something that they don't know how to do and maybe think they'll never know how to do or be experts at, and for something like gardening that can be really intimidating. And what you're saying is that's ok even if it fails. The whole point isn't necessarily...Bridget: Well, and that would be my perspective on it and what I bring to the community garden. I think I was talking about how there were two people at that training who wanted to grow their own food. They had plans to make a community garden, they wanted to sustain their living, they wanted to plant enough food to last their... They wanted to eat off their land. But it wasn't going to be their land it was going to be some neighbor's property that as an empty lot. And we kind of parted ways because they were very serious about, like we will be producing enough food for ourselves and the difference between the lot they already thought they could use and some of the lots like empty some vacant property that we were looking at they were like “oh there's not enough room, not enough room” and I was like “not enough room for what?” But like my idea was not going out to produce enough food to support all of Bellevue.It was always going to be a community garden, a place to meet, a place to garden, a place to enjoy each other. And hopefully get some vegetables out of it. So meeting those people at first was exciting and then it was like this is a struggle, they were not interested in the community aspect of it.Katie: The community aspect of it is what.. And that's what you went to people with.. It wasn't do you want to grow vegetables it was do you want to be part of a community that is growing vegetables?Bridget: Right. Yeah like bring your kids, it won't matter, we won't care. No hard core rules no you know some of the strict regulations.12:37 – 15:18Katie: That's the key. So then how did the potluck evolve?Bridget: There was ourselves and another family, the Salzmans, who I guess we just decided we should try it. There wasn't a whole lot of planning involved other than like we all do it once a month, we'll have it at the city building and that's it. And we don't know what will happen, I think it was just mainly them and just saying like well it might just be the four of us - and kids who show up and we'll just see what happens from there.Katie: And so during this time, you guys are starting to shake a little bit of your patterns about how you live in your neighborhood, can you talk about some of those smaller micro-things that you've done to build community and ways that you've also met neighbors. Because you know it helps to have that form of communication where it's not just a flier going out. What were the ways you got to kind of know more neighbors so you could make those invites?Bridget: I think a lot of it was, one the coffee shop became much more of a hub. So there were people coming and going and just running into people and saying hello. There were programs that our kids did, like there was a basketball program with young kids and we walked around, I think we went around to a few different people and talked to them about, ‘hey would you come? You'd be welcome.” There was a neighborhood group started on Facebook too.Katie: And I love that you guys do stuff in your front yard too.Bridget: Yeah we usually have our fire pit out there, so we'll sit out there. Halloween we sit out there with a fire and hot dogs or just anytime and there's quite a few kids in our neighborhood especially at this point, that just kind of wander around, hang out looking for stuff to do. So if we're doing that they can come and hang out and sometimes their parents come with them. Sometimes it's a formal ‘hey we're having a fire pit who wants to come?'Katie: And the same spirit happens at the garden. Right where people just kind of walk by and they see it so that's an invitation?Bridget: Yeah and I have gone to the school and done, like with the after school program, pretty much since the beginning brought a group weekly or however often works in their schedule. So there were a lot of kids then that I got to know who I would meet their parents somewhere in the grocery or wherever and be like ‘oh hi I know you' and then they'd have to explain who is this lady? And then there is stuff like when people walk by, still like ten years later like ‘What is this? We have a community garden?' And the community garden was communal, that was the other thing that we did, it's not as if you pay a membership due and get so much property or square foot bed, it's just everybody gardening together, so that if somebody is to come once, they don't have to wait until next year to get their bed or whatever. They come and they can do whatever we're doing, like everybody works on it together, same thing with kids and everything.15:19 – 16:44Katie: So I mean taking it back to when you guys were first looking at Bellevue and saying this is not a place where we can build community to today it just seems like...Bridget: I don't think we thought that we couldn't build it but we just hadn't.Katie: Yeah or I guess..Bridget: We just didn't know what community was, like to sit back and be like ‘oh yeah when we grew up we could talk to all these neighbors and we did run.. Like I did run around with my neighbor friends, there were five or six kids I was allowed to go around the block... I just think we as adults had not even attempted. Like we were just the people coming in and out our front door, parking, getting out and going out to work, coming home and staying home or going out somewhere else. And we just had that shift of well what is going on here in Bellevue?We should be a part of this. If this is where we are going to live, let's live here. It shifted from work and people we know from work or old college friends that we're going to go visit and see to shifting to like well who are our neighbors? You know maybe we thought that the neighborhood itself wasn't very welcoming like when I look back nobody welcomed us what the heck. But we've been here long enough we are the people who have lived here, we should be the “welcomers” so I think we just kind of recognized our own role. If we want our community to look a certain way we've got to do it. We can't wait and think well nobody else did that, so I guess it doesn't exist.Katie: That's just not part of our neighborhood.Bridget: It's just not a thing.16:45 – 18:41Katie: And that's also something that you almost don't want to impose on people its like ‘well nobody else is doing that here so maybe that means people don't want it and if we tried we'd be imposing' or we'd be asking people too much. But I'm wondering too is there something to the rhythm of the garden and the potluck that has allowed for this to take shape?Bridget: I don't know I wanted to make a community garden. I think that as far as where is your energy best, where gives you energy, what makes you happy is a big factor. So if it's going to make you miserable to garden then you're probably not going to be the person that starts the community garden. Like you might help with some aspect of it but going to the garden overall is a fun time for me, I enjoy it, it makes me happy. I love when new people come I love when old people show up versus trying to do something just because I think it's a good thing to do, if that makes sense. There's definitely been times and roles that I have taken on because ‘oh wouldn't you, would you be willing to do this for us, you'd be really great at that' ..Ok, I can do that, you know I'll commit to that role… and then realizing this is killing me.. Like this just makes me miserable, why would I say I'd do this and now I say I've done it so I'll do it but I've got to step out quickly. And I think that's more like there are plenty of ways to build community and plenty of things that you can do, I think it's just making sure you're enjoying them. And then it's also possible to make sure you're enjoying them with the right people. You know some of those..Katie: Keeping an eye out for who is going to be in the same.. Who has the same motivations as you.Bridget: Versus being like, oh if you're willing. You know sometimes you agree just to have help, to have anyone on board to do something but if its... You know what you want and you're going the wrong direction you might be really disappointed.18:42 – 21:04Katie: You can be discerning when you build community and it doesn't mean you're not a good neighbor.Bridget: Yeah, I think the other things we've done like the potluck we were very conscious of doing things that are simple, keeping it simple, don't make it complicated, don't promise gourmet meals. We have never said that we are going to... You know the tables will be set up by 5:30 and we will have brought the main dish, anything like that. It's kind of, the more people come the more comfortable they are, like “oh it starts at five o'clock and that means we just get here at five o'clock and we start setting tables up and chairs and arranging the room it doesn't mean at five o'clock dinner is served and you've walked into like a dinner party with tablecloths. It's very laid back, we make sure there are plates which actually on Sunday we ran out but oh well. People figured it out, they reused some, ate off the cake plates.Katie: Yeah, that's the part that stresses me out about potluck, when I hear it and I think of hosting it I think I have to bring the main dish, I have to be the one to set up everything and you figured out a way to make that low key.Bridget: You just kind of set it up with the expectation of 1) there's not really a host, like Ryan will put it on the Facebook group and he'll set the events, it's every fourth Sunday and that's kind of done for the year actually. Between a few of us we throw in paper plates and forks every once in a while, so yeah and just kind of knowing we could have put the bar really high from the beginning but I think at that point we were aware enough to know that that would wear us down. We wanted to make sure it would be nothing any of us dreaded going to and that's not going to keep it going.Katie: Yeah, and how could you ever go on vacation or have a missed week?Bridget: Yeah and if we're not there what do you do? You know luckily there's not a key, the way Bellevue works is we just call the police and they have a key to the building and they let us in. Now anybody, the early birds know that. So if we're not the first one there the other first person knows ‘oh I just call this number and they'll come and let us in and we can get the tables out and start moving things around.' I mean that all took time you know, but I think just to be cautious or thoughtful about if it's something that you want to do for a long time, what is it that you enjoy doing and it won't drain you over the long-haul?21:05 – 23:13Katie: And how often do you go to the garden? How often are you..Bridget: In the season I'll go twice a week.Katie: Ok, and are you going at a set time when everyone else is coming too?Bridget: Yes, Wednesdays 6:30, Sunday at 9:30.Katie: So you have set hours?Bridget: Those are the established.. They kind of shift from year to year but usually it's like Wednesday night and Sunday morning.Katie: Ok. How many people would you say are showing up to these different things, does that even matter? How important is that to you?Bridget: It's great when there is a crowd. There's probably like 30-40 people plus kids, and then some kids at the potluck.Katie: Starting out it was just you and the Salzmans right?Bridget: Well a couple more people came and even then obviously in the time that we've been doing them, who shows up and who is still showing up has changed. The same thing with the garden, some people who were really helpful and got us you know came and did some hard work at the beginning, you know one couple's moved out of Bellevue another one is still semi-involved, actually a couple of people have moved out.. You know so some people who were involved are gone. And now it's a different wave of people almost. And then there's people that for some of those people that were a part of the community garden they never came to a potluck, that wasn't their scene. We even though it is kind of close.. Bellevue is pretty small, so you could be conscious of — ‘oh they've never shown up once' but it's not their thing. So I think to just keep that.. Because when you first.. When things first get started and they're sort of in that fragile state of beginning, it is sort of fragile right and you think ‘oh how come they aren't coming to the garden, I thought they'd help and they've never shown up.' And you can take it personally but then again another part of living in a neighborhood for your life is expecting you to live by these same people. So if you want to hold a grudge about the fact they said they'd show up and they didn't you probably aren't going to be great neighbors, you know like this is a lifetime of living so let's not hold a grudge about the time they said they'd show up or why didn't they and all that kind of stuff. Because that's not necessarily going to help build community either.23:14 – 24:18Katie: One of the things that I'm wondering now is if it is a new neighbor and they want to get involved in the garden, do they contact you? If they do want to come to the potluck is there a main person there to kind of coordinate things or..Bridget: I think the Facebook group is a pretty big communication device for everyone, and that shows the times and then if somebody asks a question then the person tags my name or somebody else in there and say “hey they want to know about this” or you know I think Facebook is a big driver as far as communication that I've had and then it might be a personal message or text from somebody whose met, you know maybe they live next door to somebody who had that question and they say ‘oh here's her phone number or I'll text her or email her.'Katie: So you are the main contact for a lot of these questions for the garden?Bridget: I mean for the garden I am, I don't know that anybody really reaches out for the potluck as much as they would just show up and be like ‘what is this, who should I talk to?' And then people would probably point out a few different people to talk to there.24:19 - 26:40Katie: So when people talk to you I guess they see you as a coordinator of the garden especially, and they come to you and they have a brand new idea for the garden or they want to implement something, being in that role as the main contact how do you deal with that how do you respond?Bridget: Usually it's that sounds great, you can do it. Just recently we had a big, one of our neighbors was part of Crossroads and she was leading a go global effort in Bellevue and she wanted to do it at the community garden and she was like, “I've got some ideas” and I was like “I'd love to hear them” and they wanted to put in a pergola and a grill. The grill didn't happen but the pergola is up and it was like that would be amazing, that would be great, and they did it. There have been many suggestions like at the potluck we should use silverware, all this plastic and I was like, “I hear ya I bring my own.” My answer to that is me and my family, we have the dishes we come here with and we take them home.Katie: So you bring your own set of dishes and silverware?Bridget: I do.Katie: Oh that's smart.Bridget: But I provide the paper ones as well, but one of the people who comes says we should really.. Or shouldn't we all.. We should just have silverware here and I'm like, “if you want to bring it and take it home and wash it I would love it.” But I am also making it clear that I'm not volunteering to do that.Katie: To clean everybody's dishes.Bridget: I am taking home these five plates and these five forks because I would really probably resent everyone as I washed their dirty dishes.Katie: Oh my gosh yeah.Bridget: But I would love it if somebody really was motivated and was like I'm going to do this, this is my thing I'm going to do every month, I would totally support that.Katie: Yeah it goes back to do what you want other people to do, sort of be the change by living it. I think people forget what an individual looks like versus what an organization looks like. It's like an organization who runs a potluck would probably take that and implement a new system of dishwashing because they could but an individual or a family..Bridget: Or organize like it's your month. Like could you imagine the rotating..Katie: No.Bridget: Who knows.. Who knows what any organization would do.Katie: But that's the slipery slope of it getting really entangled and emmeshed in this sort of process, agenda, structure that ends up killing the spirit of it.26:41 – 34:21Katie: Now when you look at your neighborhood, Bellevue, what does community look like? What would be like a key image?Bridget: There's a few that come to mind, like one is the ability for my... like Patrick who is old enough and friends live with he just walks around and finds friends. Like that's a pretty great image for me, like that's kind of his classic line at this point is “I'm going to go out and find some friends, I'll be back.” That's a pretty big deal for your kids to be able to go out and find some friends to play with. I don't know there's a lot of images, you know we just had the memorial day parade and we weren't in the parade but knew.. Waving at all the groups that were walking by, how many people we knew or as people go to sit down or as we go to sit down talking to so many of the people that are around that's pretty great.. That's a big day for Bellevue I feel like Memorial day parade but pretty great.Katie: Do you ever feel the need to go back in time to this hidden life in pulling in from work and going in the house and not talking to any of your neighbors, is there ever a time when you not regret but wish you could be more under cover in your neighborhood?Bridget: I don't think so, no, like I said I think there is the things you learn about being in community and being around your neighbors of knowing how far to take of personal feelings right, “oh you hurt my feelings.” And kind of working.. Being aware of who you are and why that hurt your feelings, like don't hold onto that forever because I could find a way to probably be upset with a lot of people if I wanted to, right? Like we could find hurts everywhere or slight grievances whether they're real or not, whole other story, but if I wanted to take that as a personal afront to what they said or not showing up..Katie: Or even just differences in political opinions.Bridget: That would be a big one right now. Like stuff like that, Facebook profile what somebody said on Facebook or on the group page you know, like how much do you engage in those conversations that people get started. So no I don't, at the same time there's been moments of struggle where you have to sit down and say “ok this is what community is about, it is about you can be this person and we can still talk about our kids being friends even though we have the.. We are not alike in a lot of ways.Katie: That part of it is what I think is the most magical. Is when you can actually get to a place where you can be common with people who you are so different from and you can feel connected and familiar with them even though you might never have chosen them but they're your neighbor. It's kind of like family but in a different way.Bridget: It is, and it's not to.. You know to paint this picture there are plenty of people who don't want to know me. It's not as if the whole neighborhood is all sharing.. You know there are those people who think a community garden is a waste of space, that's fine. There were people when we first started who thought we were taking away a place for kids to play, we can win them over or just ignore them. You know they'll either be won over all with time, I mean its not our intent, it's not as if we're hiding some intention other than.. I don't know if some people are suspicious like “why are you doing this” “what's your end goal?” And I think they're have been some people who have asked me that and I was like “um what do you mean? End goal? We're going to get to know each other isn't that enough?” But that's not enough some people just don't.. I don't know people have suspicious nature sometimes, sometimes they don't understand that you can just be doing it. I don't know how many times Tim has been asked if he is going to run for mayor. He's not.. Or city council.. Like are you running for something. Some people thought I worked at the school, “well you're a teacher there right?” “no, no I just live in Bellevue.” But like people's concepts of why people do things, you know it's your job to do them versus no this is just what I do for fun. This is my hobby.Katie: Yeah and it.. I think the intrastent motivation behind why you're doing something or if you were trying to get something out of it even if it wasn't this is my job or I'm trying to run for city council, if it was something less tangible than that like “I want to do this so I am.. So that people like me so I'm a good neighbor.. I'm going to do this so everyone thanks me and loves me for this garden at the end of it I'm going to be well renowned” so even that gets you in trouble because there are people that say, “you took away my this this or this” by doing it, you can't make everybody happy, you can't win everybody over so your motivation has to be pretty.. I would even think it gets whittled down to being just a pure motivation of “the only reason I would do this is because I love it and I want to be with the community. The community doesn't have to all of it but if some people do and we can enjoy it together than that's enough. I can see though where that would be really hurtful to be like “but wait a minute, wait I'm not trying to hurt anyone why is this being misconstrued?”Bridget: Why, why would you mock my garden? What do you think this is? But yeah. So you know that's one of the learning, take your toys and go home or stick it out and see what happens, see who comes around, all things with time. Sometimes its hard at this point to be like “wow it's been ten years” ten years of growing and what did it look like then, what were the struggles when we started versus what are they now? You know, I think overall the struggles now.. There's not really.. We kind of went over some of the hurdles and now it's just like I don't stress about it a lot. You know if people's expectations when they come to the potluck are let down because there wasn't a greeter at the door or there wasn't assigned seats, or whatever they had in their mind when they come in the door they may come and be disappointed because it wasn't organized enough and they really think it should be organized. And they probably don't come back and that's too bad I wish they would but at the same time this is maybe not where their energy is fulfilling, like they would be really stressed out by our lack of..Katie: So loose structure just kind of lends itself to anybody being able to fit in at the same time..Bridget: But there are people who come to the potluck who do not always bring a dish for whatever reason, they don't cook maybe they can't afford the meal, nobodies checking at the door. We can all show up differently and bring a different gift and that ties pretty directly to our work right and all that we have done. Not everybody.. The stricter the ways are the more exacting and perfect you have to be. At the community garden it would be really hard for groups of kids to show up at our community garden if you can't touch this and you can't touch that and if you step there.. I knew I wasn't going to organize.. I wasn't going to manage ten plots and ten people's opinions on how each plot should look. I was like heck no. That's one of the things garden managers.. Community garden managers do.34:22 – 36:18Katie: Ok so it has a lot of your spirit in it and whatever community effort is built has the person who starts it spirits in it. So let's take it back to Starfire's work real quick. Where is this type of community building that you do in your own life where does that show up in your work at Starfire and how is it influencing your work with disabilities one on one, do you think you'd be able to do some type of job if you weren't doing this at home?Bridget: Yeah, I think I could. I can definitely.. I know I believe in the community building work. I know it, I've seen it I've lived it in my own live and seen how if we had not changed or shifted what we were doing around our own neighborhood I don't know what our kids would be doing. Because of how we've shifted and lived I know that there is a lot of good things a lot of potential out here for communities to build up around. So I think that helps motivate the work but I think I could do it even if I hadn't. I wouldn't quite understand all the ins and outs I wouldn't have had the experiences to understand or think through some of the things but some have probably played off each other too.Katie: So your work at Starfire has kind of informed your role in your neighborhood and vice versa?Bridget: I would say it has.Katie: Yeah, how could it not.Bridget: I don't know how it wouldn't have at this point but I'm sure they've definitely influenced each other.Katie: That's the work life blend I think that was talked about at the beginning of this change at Starfire. It's not that we have to take our work home and do our work at home it just means that our work is actually is a way of life and we do it everywhere. We do it at our work but we don't clock out and go home and be sucky neighbors because it kind of just influences the way you live everywhere.36:19 – 38:14Katie: Why do you think it's important for you to do this work in people with disabilities lives?Bridget: Well I think the.. What I've seen in our own world and I think with some of the people that have started projects as families too is that it kind of spurs on the next thing. So by starting something it kind of opens another door, it's a ripple effect of all of it. So I think that is somebody starts something in their neighborhood and then you know you don't necessarily have to do it all, there will be other people who are motivated to something else then maybe you just show up to support them or tell them they did a great job later on. It's not you for everything, but I definitely think for more people to know each other is good for everyone, for sure.Katie: So what is your hope for the next ten years, in the next ten years, let's say ten years from now what is your hope for Bellevue?Bridget: I think that's pretty hard because I think Bellevue is pretty great right now it doesn't need to change anymore, but I'm sure there will be change in ten years and hopefully it will all be good change. My hope is that it is just a welcoming happy community for everyone and continues to be that and in ten years my sons will then be young adults will want to be there too. That this is a place where they want to be and feel as strongly connected to as they do now.Katie: And maybe carry through with some of the work that you guys have set?Bridget: Maybe I can't imagine.. In their own way they'll be doing something else. I have no doubt they'll be doing something.Katie: Maybe they'll run for mayor. One of them will run for mayor.Bridget: No, well maybe who knows. We'll see.Katie: Alright well thank you, I appreciate it.Bridget: Thank you Katie.

Do you understand the words that are coming out of my podcast? I hope so cuz this week Mr.Franchise is back with special guest Katie So, to discuss Rush Hour 2. Is Brett Ratner a creep? That’s a given. Have some of the jokes aged poorly? Without a doubt. But is there still fun to be had with one of the final east meets west buddy flicks? You better believe it! Here's a link to the trailer for this week's recommendation "The Miami Connection" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZu69OB2KM Rate, Like , Subscribe and find us on: Twitter @Mrfranchisepod Itunes, Stitcher, Soundcloud + Many More Pod Apps @Mrfranchise Instagram @shoreloser

Scott: One of Kyle's big interests is birds. So what we did was created a birding weekend, and invited a bunch of guests who were connected with the Audubon Society, Cincinnati chapter, Cincinnati Bird Club. People along that line those who share the same interest in birding as Kyle does.Katie: Yeah and this interest in birding is more than just - I like to be outside and in the woods, right? Tell me about that interest that Kyle has and what that looks like.Tammi: When Kyle was born we had two acres in the woods and my husband is the biggest Audubon-nut known to man. And we had every bird in our yard. So Scott had all these CDs from Audubon and from Cornell University of bird calls.Tammi: What we didn't realize is Kyle's gift is audio memory and at age 2, age 3 he was putting those CDs in our old stereo and memorizing, we didn't realize, he was memorizing all those bird calls by track. We're thinking three hundred, four hundred, or five hundred bird calls he has memorized, and he still knows them to age 20. Katie: That is incredible, I didn't realize that it was something that started that young. So when you chose what to do, you were thinking around Kyle's interests. Why were you looking at Kyle's interest in particular?Scott: Well we want to get him integrated, involved in the community - trying to link him up with like-minded people. People with the same interests, shared interests.Katie: So let's unpack how you came up with the idea to eventually have a retreat, what was your initial concept around what you would do?Tammi: My initial thought was a running event, Kyle ran cross country in eight grade and he wants to run again. But Scott and I don't run long distance. So I thought I thought we would set some kind of annual running event. And that was mom, all on my own, in my own head, I get caught in my head.Katie: What do you mean by that? Why was it like being caught?Tammi: When we came to Starfire and started learning different strategies. Taking people to lunch, taking other runners, birders, artists, taking even neighbors, just taking people to lunch and pick their brains, I just call it getting out of my own head.Scott: Yeah the cool thing about some of this was when we first started thinking about this we thought well we can do this, we can do this with no input from anybody else you know we'll come up with the idea and then we can help execute. And then talking to a particular person at Starfire we were told to just talk to people, see what they think and let them kind of run with the program. Don't plan everything for yourself, this is not about you, this is about Kyle integrating into the community. Don't even make the event about him, just make an event of which he is an equal part of and let people volunteer and get the buy in from that.Katie: How important do you think those coffees were and those plannings were over time?Tammi: They were critical.Scott: Critical that's the word I was thinking too.Tammi: It was fun and it was critical to get everyone's feedback and to brainstorm with others. The synergy of getting all our ideas together.Scott: Yeah, simple conversations and getting buy-in, otherwise you're going in cold asking people to do something when they don't even know who you are. It just, you have to.Tammi: And we took a few birders to lunch and they said, well why don't we rent a cabin out in rural Adams County and go birding? And that had never crossed our minds. Scott: And then all the pieces, well what would we need to do for this and this and and it just kind of fell in place in some ways. It still look a lot of planning.Katie: And did it fall in place because the people who helped come up with the idea were helping with some of the logistics and thinking through what to do?Scott: Yeah.Katie: Some shared ownership there, and that's kind of what you were saying that you might get caught in your head, that the original idea didn't have anyone else owning it and so that's the shift where some other people being part of this and feeling just as passionately is what drives the whole ship.Tammi: Absolutely.Katie: And then so everybody who participated in the planning of it how did you work with their schedules to make sure they were involved?Scott: Our event was more of a regional draw, it's not people who live on our street. So our meetings were one on one, they were through email, phone calls things like that. It wasn't like a collective group of people meeting all the time. Turned out there was a bigger interest than we really kind of expected so we had to kind of pull back on it because the place we were getting for the weekend wasn't large enough to hold everybody. So their enthusiasm made things so much easier. The worse thing you can do is throw a party and nobody shows up.Katie: That's really neat. And what was Kyle's role in the project planning itself?Tammi: Excellent question.Scott: I won't say Kyle initiated any of the plans himself, what we would do is we would always ask Kyle if he wanted to do this, get his sign-off essentially.Tammi: Is it ok to have a sleepover with ten people in a cabin? And he would give us a thumbs up or thumbs down. He would come on all the lunches with us or the coffees we would have with people.Katie: Once you came up with this idea together and you landed on your theme, you came up with what you were going to do, you probably set a date, picked a location, were there any other things logistically that you really had to work through that were big parts of this?Tammi: We had to watch the weather, and it rained, which actually turned out to be a good thing because the birds like the rain.Scott: Yeah, it was migration season for the warblers, it was in May, so a nice spring rain kept them calm and singing.Tammi: Picking trails that were accessible and worthy of seeing lots of birds. Picking a trail that was near a lunch picnic shelter, because we provided lunch.Katie: Did anything come up during the process where you felt like, oh no this is never going to work?Tammi: Oh big time.Scott: YesKatie: Can you name a couple of those?Scott: Well, we had a spot all picked out, it was an hour and a half east of the city of Cincinnati, and was it a week or two before? They said, there's — I'll just call it an environmental issue. They had some wild animals on the premises, and we cannot have you come to this. Katie: What type of wild animals?Scott: Feral hogs.Katie: Oh of courseScott: Feral hogs were loose on the property and we need to trap them and we can't have humans at the facility because it'll spook the feral hogs. So we had to scramble, Tammi actually did, scrambled and found a place that we then rented for the weekend.Katie: That must have been just.. How did that feel, gut wrenching?Scott: (Laughter)Tammi: Gut-wrenching except that the rental I think turned out to be a better option for us.Katie: So it was a good thing, hogs feral hogs who would've thought can actually be the best part of your project?Scott: Yeah and then we walked into the place we rented and the first thing we see is the mounted head of a hog on the wall, and I was like, this is perfect, it was meant to be.Katie: So take me to the day of the birding event. It sounds like a lot of the planning happened with you all and you were the connection but maybe having everyone in the room at once was kind of an exciting thing. Where everybody's like, now we're all here. Tell me about the day, how did it feel?Tammi: It was May and it was rainy and we all met at a trail head and that's how we got our day started with a hike.Scott: And we turned the hike procedures and all that over to one of the birders, who was familiar with the trail. So they led the hike and we just participated like everybody else.Tammi: It was exciting, everyone showed up.Scott: Everyone showed up.Tammi: We had 17 on the hike and I think 14 came back to the cabin for dinner. That was exciting to finally get inside and out of the rain. We had a lot of fun stories to tell. And then ten people, that's the limit on the cabin for spending the night, so we had ten conversations to midnight.And what Scott and I noticed too, Kyle being such a (I don't want to say expert) but the audio memory, he can hold his own in that group of experts.Katie: Were they impressed by the level of knowledge that he has?Tammi: Absolutely.Katie: After all this your goal to help Kyle get more integrated into the community, and also as a family to connect more socially with people who share the birding interest, what has happened since? What is a result of this project that you want to share?Scott: During that weekend one of the activities we did was we had a little contest where we would play a bird call and the avid birders had to identify what the bird was. We had fifteen birds and Kyle ended up winning the competition. It was pretty cool in and of itself. Then a few months later there was a bird outing, and the person that was leading the birding walk - we had never met. And when we introduced ourselves to him he said,“Oh Kyle I've heard about you, you're the one who knows all the bird calls.” So we decided to take him to lunch just to make the connection with him. Over lunch he said he would like to do that, he heard about the birding weekend, he actually knew of the place we went and said that was one of his favorite places to go birding ever. And he would like to do that same weekend if we'd be interested in doing it with he and his buddies. So great yeah, we'll do that. And then at lunch he decided I have about an hour, I'm going to go birding, Kyle would you like to join me? So we all went birding and it was kind of interesting because Josh kind of took Kyle. And they went birding and Tammi and I were kind of behind them watching it was pretty cool because it all came out of the birding weekend. It was that connection, he knew about the weekend, he knew about Kyle's skills, he knew of where we went birding, it was just this perfect puzzle that was put together.Katie: And you didn't even have to put that out there?Scott: He did it all. It was his idea, and it's his guest list, so we're connecting Kyle to a whole other group of people he didn't know before.Katie: That's incredible, thank you guys anything else you want to say?Tammi: Well, I was going to say, I felt as the non-birder, you know the big let down after the big weekend… Birders all go away for the summer and I thought, oh my gosh we did all of this and there's no connection. And then a month later they go on that hike and then — there's Josh.Katie: Pretty awesome.Tammi: It was awesome.

TRANSCRIPTION 0:00 – 1:00Mieke: You're never ready. There are some things you just can't predict everything. You can't know the end from the beginning. You just have to trust that it's ok to not know what you're doing and get started at the same time.Katie: What if there were a bigger story than disability? You're listening to More conversations at the center of the movement to build connection and belonging in an age of isolation. Ever felt stuck? Or like you don't know where to begin? This conversation with Mieke will help you conquer some of your own doubts around just getting started. Mieke is part of Starfire's initiative to put families at the center of community building, this means she was granted a small stipend and offered a mentor from Starfire to help nudge and uncover her families own wisdom around building community. So she'll address some of her own struggles of getting started with this family project in her neighborhood. Like expanding her concept of who her neighbors might be.1:01 – 1:58Katie: And her epiphany about how to bring her four kids passions together in one project. She'll also talk about how she leveraged some of her weak ties or people she already knows to help with the project. And some of the tools you might need to get started. If you listen to the podcast with David Shu you'll recognize the quote at the end by T.S. Eliot “For us there is only the trying the rest is not our business.” So let's get into the conversation. Alright do you want to introduce yourself?Mieke: My name's Mieke and I have been passionate about community building pretty much since forever. I was the kid who was the bridge between friend groups in elementary school, I got voted most outgoing in my high school class of 307 people and I have just always been about bringing different groups of people to the same table.1:59 – 3:12Katie: Yeah, and that's very true. I know you personally as well and I know that that's been my experience with you. So your high school classmates - they had it right. So one of the questions that comes up a lot about community building and trying to do a creative project in your neighborhood is that starting is the hardest part and for somebody like yourself, it sounds like you're more outgoing, so help people who might not be as outgoing, also bring them along in this podcast, so they can get a deeper understanding of what ittakes. Because I don't think this is just for people who are outgoing, do you?Mieke: No, definitely not.Katie: Ok, take us back to when you first started your project with Starfire what were some of your first steps?Mieke: The hardest thing about getting started for me was that I didn't feel like I was owned by any particular geographic neighborhood. I feel like I belong to Cincinnati, and I wasn't sure how to narrow that down.Katie: So your project really started around that problem that this is supposed to be a way to activate my neighbors, but what you kind of had to come around to or learn was that community could be a community of interest, is that right?3:13 – 4:09Mieke: That's exactly right. So that was my first struggle and I struggled with that for like five or six months. We walked our neighborhood, we looked around and we looked at the community bulletin boards and looked at the rec center and met people and I just still did not feel like that was what we wanted to do.Katie: And you had said that was a neighborhood you had newly moved to?Mieke: Yeah, and so just kind of first problem expanding my concept of who my neighbors are and realizing that it's ok to do a project on a community of interests rather than a geographic community.Katie: So once you landed on that how did you come up with that community of interests?Mieke: The next big problem that I had was that I was very involved in a lot of this community work in Cincinnati but I was doing it without my kids.Katie: And you have how many kids?Mieke: I have four kids.4:10 – 5:12Mieke: From 10-17 and they all have very strong opinions and a lot of varied interests.Katie: Ok, so each child had their own thing going on?Mieke: Yeah, a lot of our time is spent going in different directions. And so I would say another big hurdle I had to jump over was how do I bring it all in guys, coach mom at the helm here trying to figure out what we're going to do as a family and how we are going to combine all the things that everybody, exploring everybody's interests and bringing everybody back to the table together. So that each kid can feel some ownership of our project.Katie: Yeah, I think it's really interesting as a parent to do that because you do, you end up, well this child likes ballet and this child likes soccer, this child likes crafts and this child likes theater. So you end up doing things very separately and in their own age group. So then to bring it all back together and say we are going to do something as a family, was that more effort in the long run to have everybody come together or was it more efficient with your time?5:13 – 6:29Mieke: I would say having a central focus point for what we are going to do with our project did end up bringing the kids all together which did make it somewhat more efficient. But the fascinating part to me was that the project that we picked had so many different tasks. We had a master tasks list and each of the tasks built on each kid's strengths. One kid could really care less about art in some ways but he took on the role of you know I'll walk the stuff over to the venue and I'll walk my youngest brother over to the venue and I'll help by transporting things and carry things. Which was really helpful because I don't have a staff I don't have administrators, or secretaries or anything you know, I could use about five. And you know another kid is very creative but very picky so I said well you can do all the décor and you cann design the space and she was ecstatic about that, that's in her wheel house. I guess what I'm trying to say is the project ended up having lots of little tasks that played to each kid's strengths which brought them all around the table in a way that I did not expect.6:30 – 7:29Katie: Yeah, and I love the idea of having really intentional invitations for your children to participate but also anyone who is getting involved from the community, you have that mind set of: ok where are they going to thrive and how is this going to feel energizing for them so it's not a chore? And definitely coming from a mother/parent asking your kid to do something often sounds like a chore but you found a way to make it this fun thing that they did together. So tell me a little bit more about your project, what exactly you guys ended up landing on.Mieke: I had been meeting with my mentor for this entire time at a café in our neighborhood and it turned out that being at that café every month ended up being the open door for my daughter to get a job there. So then my daughter started working there and we became friends with the owners, and made community for ourselves in this space and then one day our mentor said why don't you hold an event at this café? You're friends with the owners already, they're open to doing cool stuff in their neighborhood.7:30 – 8:29Mieke: So we ended up saying what can we do that is a community event that gives back some kind of creativity opportunity to the kids in the neighborhood, our friends, the people that we know. We wanted to do an event that had mindfulness, art, music and food. And we ended up inviting some artists, we invited the pop-art truck, my friend Janet owns that.Katie: And you had not known Janet as a friend when you reached out to her right, because you guys had known each other as acquaintances and then you reached out, how did she take to that invitation?Mieke: Yeah, she was thrilled. She was super excited, I told her what my budget was she said she would make it work. At first with my mentor I was brainstorming, I could put out a call to artists, I could put out an ad and then it was like, stop, think. I already know people.Katie: So you had the pop-art truck, you had a woman from the Hive.Mieke: Yes, there's a woman whose an art teacher who made art journals with people, like these little made out of one sheet. Then my youngest son is also an artist, and he taught origami at this table and just him being able to you know use his gift of creativity to do the actual teaching which he thrives in. Having him have his own space you know, where he felt respected, was huge for him.8:30 – 9:29Katie: And he did awesome, at ten years old I was super impressed.Mieke: He was nine at the time.Katie: Ok, yeah not even in double digits and he mastered me in origami I could not do it.Mieke: He's pretty amazing at that.Katie: So do you think for people who are just getting started and they might not have the vast network that you already had, do you think one of the steps might be, who do I know who knows a lot of people and going out to find that super connector in their life who might be willing to reach out to their network?Mieke: Yes, I think that makes a lot of sense, because you are your own best resource.Katie: Yeah, and it seems like what we tend to do right now is I'm going to go online, I'm going to Google it and then you just don't have that personal connection to really start with.9:30 – 10:33Mieke: Right. And I think don't minimize the fact that no matter how young your kids are, they have ideas, so don't lose sight of your own household as a source for ideas. Even for somebody like me who already has so many connections, it's like, I have so many other things on my plate, this is for the benefit of you, the benefit of your family, the benefit of your community. There's nothing to feel guilty about or feel stressed about, it's a win win.Katie: Yeah, because we can definitely put a lot of pressure on ourselves to be the ideal of what we have in our minds.Mieke: Exactly.Katie: So how do you know when you're ready to jump in?Mieke: that's a great question. I think of it a lot of times as how do you know when you're ready to start a family? You're never ready, there's some things you can't predict everything and you can't know the end from the beginning. You just have to trust that it's ok to not know what you're doing and get started at the same time. Things will happen almost organically and dare I say magically.10:34 – 11:30Mieke: It just kind of happens and you don't have, there's so few things in life that you are actually are ready for before you do them, but you just do them anyway.Katie: What's the magic?Mieke: The magic is you already know people, you have a family, you have a community, you just haven't really stopped to think about it. But it's already in you. Literally you are the magic. You bring you to the table and everything else happens. You are the only tool you need.Katie: So it's that simple? You don't need some master chart that you hang up on a wall, it's within you?Mieke: 100%.Katie: Mieke that's too easy.Mieke: No I know, well let me just tell you a little secret. I did buy this big wall chart, it happened to have five rows and we have five people in our family and it had all the days of the week and it had all these little post it notes. I lost it.11:31 – 13:30Mieke: And then I replaced it, it arrived from Amazon and then I lost it. Basically there are no tools.Katie: Clearly it wasn't being used enough if you're able to lose it. Well I think that's really important because sometimes tools can get in the way of doing what is hard. And it's not to say that tools are bad or that they don't come in handy for some people but the point is that there is no magic thing that's going to get you on that track.Mieke: I mean I think everybody has all the tools that are needed just kind of built into being an adult in this world and you just keep putting one foot in front of another and you keep going down a path and it ends up being something so much more special than you set out to make it.Katie: Well let's end on this quote then, from T.S. Eliot “For us there is only the trying, the rest is not our business.”Mieke: It's good.Katie: What'd you think about that?Mieke: In more poetic terms it's a value that I live by, it's like I'm not responsible for the outcome, I can't make people love something that I do or participate in something that I am passionate about but I just keep going anyway. And yeah I think you just have to take the leap, trust that there's going to be a trampoline under there somewhere and that you're going to bounce back higher than where you started.Katie: Sounds like fun too. When you put it like that.Mieke: Super fun. I'm all about fun.Katie: Well thank you, I appreciate it.Learn more at starfirecincy.org/familyleadership

Join the Marriage After God movement today: https://marriageaftergod.com"Exposing how God is at work in the world reminds us of who God is and what can be done when we say yes to Him." - Marriage After GodPrayerDear Lord, Thank You for using ordinary people to do such extraordinary things in this world. It is only by Your power that we are able to say Yes with courage and do all that You ask us to do. We pray we would be quick to say yes to You and trust You to help us. No matter what You invite us to do, may we never forget or neglect to do the things You have already commanded us to do in Your Word. Help us to be faithful and obedient people. We pray our marriage would be used by You to make an impact in this world and to draw people’s hearts closer to Yours. We pray our marriage would be a gift to You, blessing Your name. We pray our marriage would reflect Your amazing love. We pray for an extraordinary marriage and we ask You to use us in extraordinary ways for Your names sake. May You be glorified through us. In Jesus’ name, amen!Read Transcript- [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith, with Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're in part 14 of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Sean and Katie Ferrell about having an extraordinary marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer. Also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron. Also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. - [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage encouraging them to walk in faith everyday. - [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one. Full of life, - [Aaron] Love, - [Jennifer] And power - [Aaron] That could only be found by chasing after God - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Hey, guys. Thanks so much joining us today. We just wanna take a minute to encourage you all to go leave us a review. It's super simple. You just scroll to the bottom of the app, hit that star rating, or leave a comment review. These encourage us so much but they also let other people know where to Marriage After God podcast so go take a minute and do that for us. - [Aaron] And also the reason we're doing this podcast is because of our new book coming out called Marriage After God and we'd love for you to get a copy. It supports this ministry. It supports what we do. And also, it supports your marriage. It's gonna encourage you. We wrote this book for you and your marriage to help you see what God has for you. You can go to shop.marriageaftergod.com and you can pick up a copy today. - [Jennifer] Okay, so today we have our friends, Sean and Katie Ferrell. We just wanna say, hi guys, thanks for joining us today. - Hey there. - Hey! We're super excited to be here. - [Jennifer] Awesome. Well, just to let everyone else know who's listening who you are, how many children you have, what you do, all of that awesome stuff. Go for it. - [Katie] So I'm Katie Ferrell. - [Sean] And I'm Sean Ferrell. - [Katie] And we were married for about 10 years. It will be 10 years this August. And we have one daughter, she's almost two. Her name is Madelaine. And we work together from home doing a website called Dashing Dish which is basically a ministry that really focuses on caring for our bodies God's way as well as nutritious recipes and workouts and all the good stuff that really hones in on living a healthy lifestyle God's way. - [Aaron] This is one of the reasons why we wanted to interview you guys is because you together do this and I know that Dashing Dish is mostly your face Katie but Sean you have a big part in this, right? - [Sean] Yeah, yeah. So I actually pretty much almost everyday working on the graphic side of Dashing Dish's marketing. So I spend my time doing blog post images, new website designs, new app designs, anything that she needs, I try to give to her right away so... - [Aaron] So you guys are a team it's awesome. And that's one of the things we love about you guys is because you do it together. We do what we do together and you just remind us a lot of us and we wanted to use your story today to help encourage those listening. - [Jennifer] Well actually, to clarify, we share you guys' story in this chapter of Marriage After God which we appreciate you guys sharing with us. We won't dive in too much into too much detail 'cause we want people to go read the book but we are gonna share some extra stuff today that will be inspiring and encouraging and I think we should start with the icebreaker. - [Aaron] Yeah. So the icebreaker question for you guys is... One second. So the icebreaker question is what is your favorite life hack? - [Katie] Oh it's so funny 'cause we were going back and forth and we're creating all kinds of funny answer for this and we're like well definitely our daughter's pacifier is a life hack because it saved us - Yes it is. - time and time again whenever we're in public. That's just a general life hack when you have one girl. No, but for real, honestly, we don't wanna sound like we're coming off fake or like, you know, we're just perfect people but truly our life hack is setting our alarm and waking up early and spending time with the Lord and I call it a life hack because - That's a good one. - we know that we would not be able to do anything that we're doing without that. I'm a morning person. Sean is not. So this was something that was definitely not natural for him but he realized pretty early on when we had a newborn that he had to set his alarm and he had to make that time because the day just gets away from you. So we wake up before, you know, while it's still dark out. We make coffee and we get right into the Word in our own separate rooms. - [Aaron] That's awesome. That's a good life hack. - [Jennifer] Yeah, it's practical but it's also... It feeds the spiritual sides of things which is what we need to be at. Like you said, to do the things that we need to do. So with God. - [Aaron] Yeah and just being at... Just normal, without children, we need to be able to walk in the spirit. But with kids, we definitely need to walk in the spirit. So activating that early in the morning is super important. What we're gonna do is this chapter that we're talking about... So we've been doing this series and every episode's been on every chapter in the book. So this chapter, we tell a bunch of stories from what we call ordinary people doing extraordinary things because there's really no extraordinary people in the world. There's just ordinary people that do extraordinary things that they say yes to God and God uses the things that he's given them. So we wanted to read a quote from that chapter and then we'll get into the questions with you guys. It's from chapter 14 and it says this. "Exposing how God is at work in the world "reminds us of who God is and what "can be done when we say yes to Him." - [Jennifer] So I love this quote and to me it's saying, you know, all of our yeses to God are really impactful and when we get the chance to share our story and share what he's done in us and through us that testimony inspires other people and encourages them so that was one of the reasons why we decided to share other people's stories in this chapter including your guys' and again, we just wanna say thank you for doing that. - [Aaron] Yeah. And then the other thing is, there's often this, and we can talk about this a little bit later but there's this sense that unless we are in some sort of specific ministry, unless we have this specific giftings or talents that we see other people have, we might feel like we're not, you know, useful to God. We might feel like we don't have anything special to be used or you know, we don't have these special gifts. Or we don't have this website or this ministry or this, you know, big audience, whatever thing we wanna compare ourselves to that might keep us from stepping into thing that God does have for us. Again, which is why we shared other people's stories, not just our own is because we believe that every single person of the body of Christ, every single marriage in the body of Christ God wants to use and must be used. It's a part of His body. Every part has been given a gift and has been given something to be done for Him. And so we wanted let everyone listening know that this means you also. So it's not just for Jennifer and I and it's not just for Sean and Katie. It's not for all the other people that we've done these interviews with only. It's for everyone. Just a precursor why we're doing this episode and why we wrote this chapter specifically. Jennifer, why don't you start with the first question. - [Jennifer] Okay, so how do you guys see the contrast of how the world defines what is extraordinary and how God sees extraordinary. - [Sean] Yeah, I think... We were going over this and I thought, you know, it was interesting that you phrased it like that because when I think of something that's extraordinary, I see the creation around us. I see, you know, all these amazing, you know, landscapes and sunrise and sunsets and just things that God created that's extraordinary to me but I started thinking more of like you know, the people around us were doing all the little things that God, you know, that they're saying yes to God. And I kept thinking, you know, what we're doing, sometimes it feels mundane and feels like everyday you're kinda doing the same thing maybe like Groundhog's Day but we know we're producing something hopefully that's extraordinary in someone else's life and hopefully, it's making an impact of a change in different ways and whether it's health or food or you know, getting free from wrong mindsets or-- - [Katie] And even just like-- - [Sean] Yeah, yeah, like that. - [Katie] And even just in being parents. I mean sometimes it can just feel like Sean said, like Groundhog's Day. You're doing the same thing, routine everyday. But just knowing that we're raising the next generation for kingdom of God and how powerful and extraordinary that is but we really believe that what God says it's extraordinary is people, relationships, and how he's created everyone of us so incredibly unique with a personal fingerprint that no one else has. And yet, you look around and what does the world says extraordinary. It's so different. They exalt fame. Status. - [Sean] Salary. - [Katie] You know, followers, money, all of that. And yet, that is just simply so shallow. I've been around and seen those things so up close and yet I see those people that don't know the Lord and it seems like they have everything and yet they truly are empty when you really get to talking with them and so just having a full life and really seeing the extraordinary things really is brought out by knowing the Lord and what his plan and purpose is for your individual life and walking that out. - [Aaron] Love that. Yeah, it makes me think of, you know, money. And I think in James when it talks about... When James is talking to the rich in the church, the wealthy. And he says, "remember that's your humiliation." And then he talks about the porn. He says, "you're gonna be exalted." And there's this oppositeness. This reverse economy that we see in God's kingdom. Not that it's bad to have wealth. It's all in where our hearts are at and whose is it. Is it ours or is it God's? Are stewarding it or are we owning it? - [Jennifer] And who gets the glory for it. - [Aaron] And who gets the glory for it. I love you mentioned the small things, Sean. We think there's small things. Especially in a world currently that is so anti-children. This is just one topic in the world's views. Anti-children. And the children are not just our future. You were a child once. And the way you were raised and that you guys gave your hearts to Christ and now God's using you to do that for others and for your own child and you know, we always say, we're building the kingdom. Our children were growing disciples. We're raising disciples and it may seem mundane but it's... Who else do you get to spend 18-20 years with? Teaching about the Lord and loving on them and showing them through example and through Word. God is. We don't get many of those relationships in this world but God blesses us with children to do that. - [Katie] That's true, that's true. - [Aaron] And that's not a small thing. The world says it's a small thing 'cause they get in the way of the big things, right. Just like the disciples were like, get the children away. Jesus is doing his ministry. And Jesus like, "Whoa, whoa, let the children come to me." - [Jennifer] So I just wanna add too just as an encouragement for all the people listening that perspective is a huge thing. If you see, you know, your day in and day out with your children mundane or your job or whatever it is that you do on daily basis. It will fill that way in your heart but if you have eyes too see it as an extraordinary thing. And this is our encouragement to you today, is if you see it as an extraordinary thing, then you'll be able to kind of receive and given those moments in a different way because your perspective is different. - [Katie] So true. - [Aaron] It makes me think of... Just while we're talking about our perspective. When we realized that everything we're doing is a spiritual thing. As the Bible says, "it's not a battle "against flesh and blood. "But against the principalities "and the spiritual realm." The things that we're doing no matter how ordinary or boring they think, they are spiritual things. So how we're raising our children. The things we say. The things we do, where we go. All of it, they're spiritual things. So when we recognize that. We're spiritual creatures doing spiritual things in this world. It makes those ordinary things much more extraordinary 'cause these are gonna have eternal impact. These things we do. - [Jennifer] There's purpose behind it. - [Aaron] Yeah, there's purpose behind it. And so it might not match what the world says is valuable or purposeful. You know like saving the planet, right. But we know what's gonna happen to the planet. How God's gonna change that. Doesn't mean we don't be good stewards of the planet but what the world says is extraordinary is temporary. - [Sean] Definitely. - [Aaron] And what God says extraordinary is eternal. - Amen. - You know. - [Jennifer] That's good. - [Aaron] So most often, God's love is shared through the simplest acts of us saying, "Yes, Lord." We will do that. What have been some of your favorite yeses to God in your own life? - [Katie] Well, I would say definitely Dashing Dish because when I started Dashing Dish... Well, I was working full time as a nurse. And I went to school five years to be a nurse and it was hard work to get my degree. So we were newly married. I just started my nursing job and Sean said, "Hey, let me create "a little website, you know, just to "a side hobby for you to, you know, "start sharing your recipes and "also your testimonies and devotionals." So I just it would be a side hobby and about a year in, I realized that God was calling me to something much greater than I thought it would ever be. When we made that decision, it was definitely a hard one to make because of the fact that I did, you know, I just got my first nursing job. I worked so hard to get there. And then I was saying goodbye to it and I was saying yes to God with Dashing Dish. As you can imagine, that was definitely a challenging decision to make. However, I believe that God gave us so many clear confirmations and so many words to, you know, push us in the direction and say, "I'm leading you here. "Don't be afraid." However, there still are natural fears that comes in. And when ever we've said yes to God in anything in our lives, we can always pull back to these big moments where we've said yes and we know that God has come through for us and that single act of obedience has paved the way for so many different times in the last 10 years that we've said, "Okay, look at that time that "we were obedient on what God has done." And now we can be sure that if we're obedient in these other decisions that has come along the way that God will continue to show himself faithful. And another one was actually with Maddy. I was having a hard time getting pregnant. One of the things that I knew that I knew in my spirit was that I had to slow down if I was gonna get pregnant. I was traveling so much. I was working so hard. I would wake up at six in the morning and work until really almost 'til we went to bed at that time. I never slowed down. And my doctor said, "Hey, you need to just take a vacation." But I knew deep down that God was speaking to my heart for quite some time to just slow down. And it wasn't until I rested and I started to say no to a lot of things and put clear boundaries up where I knew God was telling me to. And that wasn't easy because you know, I turned down a lot of great opportunities and they were all good things but I knew deep down that they weren't God. When I did that, when I started to just hold back on all of you know, the open doors and I really chose the ones that I knew were from God and said no to the others, that was when I got pregnant. That was just one other instance but gosh, there have been countless that we have made the hard choices to be obedient and some weren't hard. Some were a little bit easier. But we always knew that the first thing that we had to do was A, seek God and pray together in every decision. And B, follow peace and seek peace and pursue it. And so even if it's not easy in our natural minds, we always have this heart piece that comes over us when it is God and so anytime we've said yes to Him. Yeah. He has been so good to us. - [Sean] That's true. - [Jennifer] Amen. That was also encouraging. - [Aaron] Sounds a lot like our story even because it's funny how often, and we've seen this in many, many people's stories. It doesn't come out of a, hey, I'm gonna go start this big thing and I'm gonna go do this... It's usually a hey I'm gonna, you know, on the side, I'm gonna try and encourage some people over here. I wanna use this part of my life over here. All while working a full time job. And then all of a sudden, there's a choice that has to be made. Oh, I have to do this thing over here. Full time now. How God works that way. That was similar to ours where we started Unveiled Wife and it was a side thing. It was exactly the same reason. - [Jennifer] I would describe it as incremental invitations so like you say yes - Oh yeah, I like that. - and then He takes you a little bit further and you say yes and what happens is you build this trust with God like well, I've already said yes five time to Him in this direction and He's asking me to take one more step and I can trust Him. Kinda like you were saying Katie. So I just, I really was encouraged with everything you've shared. - [Aaron] And it's very similar to how the master goes to the servants and the faithful ones that brought an increase with the talents they were given. He says, "You were faithful with little. "Now, I'll put you over much." And those incremental invitations, it's God seeing if we're gonna be obedient. It's how we are with our children. You probably experienced this with Maddy. You give them little bits of room to see how they're gonna respond. Are they gonna honor you? Are they gonna listen to you? So that you can give them more and more over time. And you know, they make mistakes and we do too. Sometimes we don't... We don't say yes very well. I know that's been true in my life. - [Katie] Learning course. - [Aaron] But you know, God's got in his patience with us. And that's what's awesome. And that's what we wanna encourage those listening is it just takes one yes after another. It doesn't mean like tomorrow you're like, well I can't handle a huge whatever this kind of ministry or that. God's good. He doesn't do that. He's gonna allow you to do what you're capable of doing. When the spirit distributed gifts. It says it was distributed according to the abilities of those he gave it too. So it's not according to someone else's ability that he distributed a gift to you. He distributed according to your ability. I love that. Just the incremental. That was a good incremental invitation. - [Jennifer] So you guys, how long have you been doing Dashing Dish now? - 10 years. - Yeah, 10. - [Jennifer] Wow, that's awesome guys. So cool. Okay so can you explain just for those listening to encourage them in that decision of saying yes to God as God was moving you forward in. Working together on Dashing Dish, how did you two say yes to God? What were some of the elements you said that you prayed together. But can you walk us through what that look like in your marriage? - [Sean] Yeah. I look back and I remember it was an interesting time for me as well. I was doing design work on the side and then I was also, it's gonna sound completely random. I actually owned four franchises of the ice cream company called Dippin' Dots. - [Aaron] Nice. - [Sean] It's so funny looking back. It feels like a dream but... - [Katie] That was just preparing him then to be an entrepreneur. - [Sean] I looked back and there was a lot of steps in that process but ultimately was kinda like my school for business almost. It might learn a lot through that. But during that time I remember, I was at the mall 10 hours a day serving ice cream. Making logos while I didn't have any customers. I remember, me and Katie we talked about starting a website, starting Dashing Dish and at that same time, I felt like, she was obviously supposed to move on from that and so we prayed about that a lot and then it was almost like with the yasp it was almost like a no as well for me because I felt the Lord prompt in me to finally close the chapter on Dippin' Dots and move away from that and that's something... That was something I did for about seven years. - Wow. - And it was kind of like... It never made any, never made any money but it was like a comfort zone almost and it was really nerve raking for me to step out and so design full time and I remember when we did that, we said yes and we literally closed the door on the chapter and the next week, I had more projects. The next months I had more projects than I could have ever dreamed of. - [Katie] Because my first question of course, well if I leave my nursing job, how are we gonna make money? We did use a practical wisdom. We did seek wise counsel. My dad who is a CFO. We sought wise counsel. We also sat down and say, can we pay for our apartment rent. And could we eat still. We weren't like totally blind. But after we said yes, we can still eat and we can still have roof over our head, let's do it and God did. He came through big for us. Took care of us every single time we had needs, they were met. - [Sean] Yeah and as soon as you had quit your job, we obviously didn't make money with Dashing Dish right away, we didn't even have the game plan of how we were gonna monetize it and the Lord kept giving us this revelations that this website. I swear the day that you quit your job, I was able to get projects that made up for your income right away. - [Jennifer] That's so cool. - [Aaron] I just wanna highlight what you just said, the practical wisdom. One thing that we've seen that is detrimental in the believer's life is walking in foolishness. And saying, "Oh God told me to do this." And then they go. And there's no counsel. There's no wisdom. And failure comes. Really quick after that. Sometimes it's small failures. Sometimes it's big failure. And God, he's not a God of chaos. He loves counsel. He loves wisdom for us as believers. That's one of the gifts he's given to us and he says in James, "If you lack wisdom to ask for it. "And he'll give it to us." And in Proverbs it tells us, it says, "By wise counsel, one wages war." It talks about counsel and our plans being established. I just wanna highlight that. In saying yes to God, it's God's way that we get to say yes. Not our way. And his way is wisdom. He says I have this for you. And one of the ways we know that is for us is that he makes a way for it also. And we find wisdom in other believers that we trust and know that we see good fruit in and they say, hey yeah do this but make sure this is in order. Hey do this but make sure this is in order. So you're not losing a home or you know, losing cars, or not being able to eat or feed your children. - Right? - Right, right. - [Aaron] But you guys did that. You said yes but then the next step was well, let's figure out how this yes was gonna work. - [Sean] The biggest thing is you have to be you have to teachable. I did a long read through Proverbs. I started ticking out all the scriptures that talk about you know, receiving criticism. Receiving feedback. - Rebuking. - Receiving wisdom. Receiving counsel. Being teachable. That's so important because I think the bible calls you a fool if you're in love with your own opinion. God will give you the idea right away but there's obviously practical steps to get there. If you think this is the only way. I don't know if you're familiar with the show, Shark Tank. - [Aaron] Oh we love that show. - [Sean] Go on there and then they receive... I would say they don't receive it but they're told feedback and they just don't grasp it or they don't want to grasp it and a lot of the advice they give is amazing and obviously they've been there so sometimes you have to listen to those people. - [Katie] Yeah, and although we didn't have every step of the plan, we did have a business plan written out of where we had hoped it to take Dashing Dish in the next five years and what not. So we did go through and we did that practical step as well which I believe is wisdom. It's just having a plan. And then it won't always look the way of course that we plan it but it is smart to have a game plan and know how you're gonna pay for things and know how you're gonna, you know, still eat and put food on the table. - Yeah, totally. - Yeah. One more question on just this wisdom and saying yes to God. So you started Dashing Dish and Sean you were doing designs for it and Katie was writing the content and the videos and... Would you have kept doing it even if you weren't able to do it full time? Would you have kept being a nurse and Sean kept doing design work on the side and then done this at a different level- - [Jennifer] Or pace. - [Aaron] Or a different pace if that was what God had for you. Would you have kept doing it? - [Katie] If that's what God had for me, absolutely. And I believe that I would've had full and complete peace to do that. And that's really what was leading me was I had no peace. I'm talking none staying at my nursing job. I actually felt like I went from loving it and I mean it was my dream job. I was a labor and delivery nurse and that was what I dreamed of for so long and yet I felt all this sudden, almost felt like I was trapped in jail and I told John, "I feel like "I can't run out of there fast enough." Of course I did the practical thing and I gave them a notice and I did things right. But I felt in my heart like I just needed to run because I felt like this is not where God has me any longer. And I also felt this extreme pull on my heart to minister to these women that I was being connected with. And I just felt this overwhelming pull to say it's either gonna be this or this. And I knew that I didn't have time or resources or the grace to do both and so I knew that I knew that I had to make that decision of one way or another. However, like you mentioned, if God has given me the grace to do both, without a doubt, I believe that he would've given me peace and the ability to do both and so I don't think anybody should ever say I feel like God is calling me to do this and then just say, "Oh well that means I can't do this then." You have to know for you what the best plan is and what his plan is I should say because I actually do know a ton of women who are doing something similar to what I'm doing where they're creating recipes and they have a website but they're still working a full time job. In fact, I know a few of them that are nurses. And I think what an amazing thing that God has given them the grace to do all of that. But like I said, I just knew for us that that was where God is calling. - [Jennifer] So being able to work together on this for the last 10 years, how has it strengthen your marriage? What have you guys experienced or noticed from working together? - [Sean] I would say it's been obviously really amazing being able to work with my wife every single day. Does it have its challenges? For sure. Like there are certain things that we know that we just can't work as well maybe together on? I think that's probably the horrible way to put it. I think the best example is when we do video work or photo work, we both have two totally entirely different visions or styles or ways of working if you will. I take one shot of food and I'm like, "That's perfect." She sees something completely different. - [Katie] He's looking at the composition of the photo and I'm looking at the food. And I'm like "No, the food looks terrible." And he's like, "The composition is beautiful." And I'm like, "No one's looking at the composition but you." - [Sean] So we do definitely butt heads sometimes in that area and you know, that's just... Being creative and being my own boss kind of thing, obviously Kate is her own boss as well but you know, I think I'm not used to having someone else's vision all the time for something different so I have to take constructive feedback. - [Katie] It's definitely helped us both expand our communication. - Oh yeah. - Outed out. We have had to put up with like different just guidelines on how we approach each other and how we discuss things. Instead of just shooting things out and saying comments of that looks terrible or just putting things out there. Instead we say okay-- - [Sean] Well that doesn't work. - [Katie] Instead we'll say, "All right, you know what. "You take over here. "Let's talk about this later." And then we come back and we have a sit down conversation. Okay, I don't think this was a really a great plan for doing it this way. Instead, there have been certain things that we have literally said we're gonna hire somebody else in instead of working together or maybe you can do that yourself and then I'll do this myself so I've completely taken over pictures for example. I do them myself. And we used to do it together of the food. And then what I do is a great compromise or meet in the middle is I take the pictures. I'll take a hundred pictures of a recipe. I'll come to Sean after I'm done and I'll say, "You choose your favorite." So he still has a say in it but he's not standing over me and I'm not standing over him and so that's kinda how we've learned to work together. So sometimes it's not always easy and it's not always perfect and clean and seamless and I think sometimes people get that picture of oh, you're husband and wife team. It must be so... You guys must work together perfectly. And I'm like, "No. "We definitely had some rough edges "that we've had to smooth out." But on the same note, like I said, it really does help us to grow in so many ways. We have become such better listeners. We've had so much better like I said communication. And we have to. If we don't communicate effectively, we will not get anything done and we only have a short window I'm sure like you. Anyone with children really. You have short windows to work and so we don't have time to sit and go back and forth so we've learned to really just delegate, communicate, and also to meet in the middle where we can. - [Jennifer] Yeah, totally. Lots of practice. - Yeah. - Yeah. - [Jennifer] Practicing good communication. - [Aaron] Those that are listening and thinking like how can we do a ministry together. It starts now. Just in your marriage. Learning to communicate well. Learning to be a team well. In your parenting, in your work schedules, in how your home's organized. And then also how you minister your neighbors and your family and your church, you know, body. And so those things are important to learn now and ask God to teach us. To prepare us for what He has for us. I have one last, two last questions for you. The first one's this. So in this chapter, we talked about ordinary people doing impactful things for God. Do you know any ordinary couples that have impacted your marriage in an extraordinary way? How did it direct your hearts toward God. - Yeah. - Would love to hear that. - [Katie] Yeah, for sure. We have a few. There have been pastors over the years. Pastors and their wives that have poured in to us. We spend to a lot of marriage conferences. The husband and wife will both speak and really just poured wisdom into us over the years. And you know, that is really impacted our marriage. We've learned a lot from doing different marriage conferences and also you guys. Your book. Your website. You guys are just so full of wisdom that God has given you specifically in the area of marriage and so... We've benefited from your resources for sure and we also point people back to Unveiled Wife. - Oh, thank you. - We just... We're so blessed by what you guys are doing and we think it's so so crucial that if you are married that you are constantly, you know, filling your relationship with wisdom that comes from sound Amen. - [Katie] Because you know, the enemy is definitely attacking marriages and that's no surprise. But we, in order to stay on guard, we have to constantly filling our marriages with truth. That being said, we also have a few different couples in our lives. One being my older sister and brother-in-law who are so blessed by the Lord but they don't just live just blessed. They have poured out God's generosity in so many lives and one of which in so many lives and one of which is they have opened countless orphanages in India. They actually went on a missions trip there years ago and they found that there were children. Our children's age. Young kids. Walking the streets and they... My brother-in-law, Phil, said to the leader, "What are those kids doing over there? "Where's their home? "Or is there an orphanage? "Or anywhere for them to stay?" And they said no. There's nowhere. There's no orphanage, nothing. So they actually built and opened multiple orphanages where children can not only be you know, sheltered but also fed and taught the Word of God. So that's just one small example of how they have sown generosity. And so they encourage us so much to really look for ways that we can use not just our finances, but our time, our talents, our resources that God has given us. - [Aaron] Love that. - [Jennifer] To pour back out. Because you know, this isn't about us. And it's not all for us. God has given us gifts and just like you were saying Aaron. It may look to some, oh I don't have a platform. What gifts do I have? No, every single person has gift. If you're an encourager and you find that you love to encourage people, that's a gift that God has given you. Not everyone can do that. So you know, call someone. Write a letter and encourage them. You don't know how it could literally change a whole life. Whatever gift God has given you, seek it out and seek to sharpen it and to really hone in on that and pour back out into others using that gift. Also our time. It's a precious resource and we all have the same amount of time in a day yet it seems like it's getting thinner and thinner in our culture today. So really giving of our time is an offering to God. Also finances. Even if it's just in a small way. Really seek the Lord in ways that you can bless people in your community with what He's given you. So Sara and Phil are definitely a huge encouraging just resourcing and couple watching them how they are so generous with God, what God has given them. - [Aaron] That's an awesome testimony. - [Jennifer] Yeah, before Aaron ask the last question, I wanna challenge our listeners to consider the people in their lives who are ordinary people doing extraordinary things the way that those people have impacted their marriage. If you even wanna share with them how they've impacted your marriage, I really feel like it would bless them so. - That'd be awesome. - That's a little. Little side challenge for you listening. - [Aaron] So last question. In your own words, what is a marriage after God? - [Sean] Hmm. Well I think that the best way to demonstrate that is to you know, be a reflection of Christ to everyone around you. of Christ to everyone around you. I think we tried to-- - [Aaron] Amen. - [Sean] Show it to the world through social media but it's the people that are in your day to day to lives that see you know, your forgiveness, your humility or you know, encouragement. Just every single thing that you can do with your wife that would exalt God in some way is a marriage after God. I feel like, you know, me taking the time to speak Katie's love languages even though... I was gonna say this earlier. I didn't get a chance but our love language are completely flip flopped and-- - [Katie] Opposite. - [Jennifer] And if you don't know what love languages are, definitely check them out. It's a great little quiz to take. To find out how to speak love to yourselves. - [Sean] But I think just dreaming and vision. You know, doing vision planning and things for the future and really seeking each other's hearts and obviously chasing after God together is I mean that's my definition of marriage after God. - [Katie] Years ago in Hawaii, we went on a trip before we had Maddy. We wrote out a marriage, a vision statement for our marriage and the very first sentence is to reflect Christ to the world around us through and then we go through different ways to do that forgiveness, prayer, and just different things. - Honesty. - Honesty. That we specifically him pointed of ways that we wanted to reflect Christ and we don't do it perfectly. In fact, we work out a few days a week at a gym. It's like a group class. I said something so Sean. We're just having a personal conversation and then I must have hurt his feelings or disrespected him in some way that he thought. And I didn't even know I did. He ended up leaving our group 'cause we had a group of three people walking out, walking to a different group. And I thought, what just happened? And so we got in the car after. And I didn't say a word. And I said, "What happened there?" And he said, "You know, you made me feel terrible." And I said, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." I said, "But you probably shouldn't "have left our group of three. "Everyone knows that we're Christians and" I said, "We need to reflect Christ." They all know that we're believers. And that's what really matters. And he said, "You're right." And so, you know, it doesn't mean we're perfect. It doesn't mean that we never fight or we never do things that are silly or outside of God's will but at the end of the day what really matter is that the world around us sees Christ in our day to day lives. And that even Goes for our children. So I think that that's really the most important thing to us. - [Jennifer] Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much and amen. That was, - Yeah. - an awesome wrap up to this interview. Thank you guys so much for sharing your wisdom and your story with us and just being willing to be transparent and encouraging. And you guys are doing some awesome work. Just again, let everyone know where they can find you guys. - [Katie] Yeah, you can head over to DashingDish.com. We also have an app in addition to our website so you can check that out in the App Store. - [Jennifer] Awesome and I just wanna encourage everyone to go check them out. And to follow along. They have some awesome resources like you mentioned earlier. Recipes and you have a whole workout system. You have all kinds of things that would benefit a couple. So go check them out and also, we also wrap up every episode with a prayer so we just would like to encourage everyone to join us. But thank you again, you guys, for coming on here today and sharing all this. - You guys have been a huge blessing. - Thank you. - Thank you for having us. - [Katie] Yeah, we feel the same about you and we were truly honored to be a part of your podcast today. Thank you so much for having us. - Thank you guys. - Awesome, okay. Go ahead and pray Aaron. - [Aaron] Dear Lord. Thank you for using ordinary people to do such extraordinary things in this world. It is only by your power that we are able to say yes with courage and do all that you ask us to do. We pray we would be quick to say yes to you and trust you to help us. No matter what you invite us to do, may we never forget or neglect to do the things you have already commanded us to do in your Word. Help us to be faithful and obedient people. We pray our marriages would be used to allow you to make an impact in this world and to draw people's hearts closer to yours. We pray our marriages would be a gift to you blessing your name. We pray our marriages would reflect your amazing love. We pray for an extraordinary marriage and we ask you to use us in extraordinary ways for your namesake. May you be glorified through us. In Jesus' name, amen. - [Jennifer] Amen. - Amen. - Amen. - [Aaron] All right guys, thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode. We have how many, three more? Two more episodes coming up. This is chapter 14. We have two more coming up. So stay tuned. And we're almost done with this. And if you have not yet done it, go pick up a copy of Marriage After God. Shop.MarriageAfterGod.com and that's where you'll get it. Thank you so much. See you next week. - [Man] Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Join the Marriage After God movement and order a copy of our new book today. https://marriageaftergod.com Quote From the book: “...what we see as inadequate, God sees as enough.” Prayer *Dear Lord, We thank You for the way you created us and we thank you for your rich provision. Thank you for equipping us for the work you have for us to do. May our eyes be opened so that we can see all of the wonderful ways you have equipped us. Use us to encourage our spouse in the ways you have equipped them as well. We ask that you use every one of our marriage to bring you glory and to spread your gospel. We pray against fear and against the temptation to bury the gifts you have given to us. We ask that you remove our insecurities far from our hearts and help us to trust in you. We pray that we would walk in confidence as we chase boldly after you and as we pursue doing the very things you created us and created our marriages to do! In Jesus’ name, amen!* READ TRANSCRIPT [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage after God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're in part 11 of the Marriage after God series, and we're going to be talking with Katie and Elisha Voetberg about taking inventory. Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through vlogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage after God. So today's guests are Elisha and Katie Voetberg from the podcast Now That We're Family. [Aaron] So before we get to the interview with Katie and Elisha Voetberg, we would love to ask anyone that's listening if they have not already to leave a review for us. That helps other people find the podcast. It helps the rankings in iTunes. So if you have a moment, leave us a star rating, leave us a text review. We'd love to see that. [Jennifer] We also wanna invite you guys to check out our new book Marriage after God, which is available at our store. So just go to shop.marriageaftergod.com to check that out and get your copy today. [Aaron] Yeah, that's the whole point of this series, is we're promoting our book coming out on June fourth, and we would love for you to get a copy of it. But following in the series, we're almost done with it, and we're excited to have you. Okay, Katie, Elisha, friends of ours. [Jennifer] Thank you for being here. [Elisha] No, thank you! [Katie] We're so stoked to be here today. [Aaron] We're here in our garage. Usually we record in our office, so there might be a little bit more echo, but this fits all of us. It's this fun little setup we got, I love it. [Jennifer] And it's in person. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] So I feel like it's just fun all around. [Aaron] So thanks for joining us, and no one is probably gonna know you, so why don't you guys tell everyone who you are, how long you've been married, kids, stuff like that. [Elisha] Right on, yeah. So my name is Elisha Peter Voetberg, and this is my lovely wife Kathryn Joy Voetberg, and we've been married for three years now, and we're pregnant with our third child. [Jennifer] Woohoo! [Elisha] So we've got a two-year-old. Yeah, we're really pumped. We've got our two-year-old, Leon Tucker, and our daughter Lucy's just about a year, and then we've got our third baby on the way. And we love being a part of fellowship with you guys, doing fellowship. [Aaron] Oh, I forgot to mention we go to church with them. [Elisha] Yeah, that's right. That's a huge highlight for us. And we're just really excited about life with each other and seeing what God can do through the family unit and through marriage. [Aaron] Cool, and that's why you guys started your podcast, was you loved what God was doing in your marriage and in your family, and we'll get into some more of your guys' background in a little bit. But yeah, if you haven't checked out their podcast, it's Now That We Are Family, and you can just search for that on iTunes or anywhere you can get podcasts, actually, so. [Jennifer] Awesome, okay, moving right along. [Aaron] This is our fun little section. We love this part. [Jennifer] Yeah, we wanted to invite you guys to join us for the icebreaker question, which is, what is one of your funniest marriage moments? [Elisha] Funniest, Katie? [Aaron] Katie has one, and she's prepared. [Katie] I am prepared. No, well, I would have to say one of our funniest marriage moments is probably the most ironic marriage moment, 'cause it was actually a fight. [Elisha] That's true. [Katie] But people think it's funny. [Elisha] It's funny now, right? [Katie] Yeah, exactly. [Aaron] Not in the moment, but it is absolutely funny now for everyone else. [Katie] Exactly, so it happened at our honeymoon, and I think it was the first wake-up call Elisha had to who he had married. [Aaron] Oh, no. [Elisha] Yeah, so yeah, I guess I'll tell the story. Katie and I, you're gonna hear more about our families, but we were both brought up in big families, and Katie's family was extremely strict when it came to sugar intake. And my family definitely was health-conscientious, but certainly not as strict regarding sugar as Katie's family was. [Katie] Nowhere close. [Elisha] Nowhere close. [Aaron] Yeah. And I think it was day four of our honeymoon, and I viewed our honeymoon as being a time that was celebratory, and you can kinda splurge. [Aaron] Yeah, which means it doesn't matter what you eat. [Elisha] It doesn't matter what you eat. [Aaron] You can have as much as you want. [Elisha] Exactly, that's how I was viewing it. And so, it was the evening of our fourth night, I think, the fourth day in our honeymoon, and we decided to get a little treat for a movie that we were gonna watch. And so, I got a pack of Skittles, just like the normal size. It wasn't the super size, it wasn't the party size. It was just the normal serving size of Skittles. And Katie didn't want anything, and that really blew my mind. I was like, you're not gonna get a treat? She goes, no. She was like, I'll have some of yours, which is classic, right? [Jennifer] Yeah, you're like, no you're not. [Elisha] Classic, yeah, exactly. And so, we started watching the movie, and I had a few Skittles, and then Katie took three Skittles and she told me that that was gonna be enough for her. [Katie] No, I had, okay, yeah. Okay, I guess, but this is a classic like, let me help you tell the story, honey. But I ended up eating 11 Skittles. [Aaron] She remembers the exact number. [Katie] Which was splurging for me. And Elisha was like, you're counting your Skittles? But then I took the Skittles away from him. [Elisha] Yeah, after I had eaten maybe 20 or 25 Skittles. [Katie] That's a lot of Skittles. [Elisha] Yeah. [Katie] Up until this point, I'd maybe had like one. Anyways, like, my family, I'm one of 11 kids, and we would split a bag of Skittles and make it last for two or three days. [Aaron] Wow, that's incredible, actually. [Katie] Anyways, yeah, so it led to kind of a crazy fight, and since then, I realize that I am the one that most people don't agree with on this story. [Aaron] Yeah, Skittles are usually a single-event, single-instance candy. [Elisha] Yeah, that's how I viewed it, exactly. She wanted to save it. [Aaron] It's one serving, isn't it, like, the whole bag? [Elisha] Exactly, I thought it was one serving too. [Katie] I wouldn't believe it, and we had to read the back. [Jennifer] Awesome. [Aaron] That is funny now, for sure. [Elisha] It's funny now. Well, you know what's funny is that we're laughing about it, but she was dead serious at the moment. She grabbed the bag from me. [Katie] I hid 'em. [Elisha] Yeah, and I thought she was being playful and kind of flirtatious. I was like, oh, come on, give me the Skittles back. She's like, no, we'll finish 'em later, like we can have 'em tomorrow or the next day. I was like, are you kidding me? I want them now. [Aaron] I wonder how many people are gonna really relate to this. They're like, this is exactly how we are with Skittles. [Jennifer] That's so awesome. [Aaron] We both would get our own bags of Skittles. [Jennifer] For sure. [Aaron] And our own bag of, what else would we get? [Jennifer] And remind each other that we're not sharing. [Aaron] Please don't have any of mine. Get your own bag if you want some. [Elisha] I don't think Katie can view you the same way anymore, now that she knows that. [Jennifer] That's okay. Okay, so we're gonna, we always share a quote, and we're gonna share a quote from Marriage after God from chapter 11, Take Inventory. Aaron, do you wanna? [Aaron] Yeah, so what we see as inadequate, God sees as enough. It's a smaller part of a bigger quote in a bigger context, but the idea is that oftentimes, we might see things that we have in our life, abilities, skills, and they're not good enough for God or adequate for what God wants to do in our life or through our life. And so we think we need something else. Oh, I don't have what it takes, that kind of mentality, but it's exactly what God's already given us, and he requires and desires us to invest it as we have it. It doesn't mean that we don't get better at things, but that's kind of the context of this, and we're gonna talk about this idea of taking inventory and we're gonna ask the questions to you guys, 'cause you guys haven't read the book yet, which is totally fine. [Elisha] Right. [Aaron] Because I think we all can learn and start to understand in our life that God's given us things, and he desires us to invest them, and not because we're trying to commend ourselves to God, but he wants us to invest them for his sake, for our sake, and it's because we love him that we invest them. So that's the quote, and then we can get into the topic and some questions for you guys. [Elisha] Cool. [Aaron] Are you guys excited about the questions? [Elisha] I am excited. [Aaron] Okay. [Jennifer] Okay, you guys are a young family figuring out what God has for you as a couple. How has that journey been so far? So you can describe things like how you feel about it, highs and lows, or maybe a significant story that stands out to you? [Katie] Yeah, so I think there have been a lot of highs and lows in our three years of marriage, and I think our first month of marriage was kind of indicative to that. Elisha was making I think $1800 at the time working at a restaurant, and our rent was 1150. So I don't even know how we quite managed to make it all work that month. We were doing a ton of odd jobs, and we started three different businesses our first month of marriage, and got pregnant. [Aaron] A little bit of things. [Katie] Yeah, like all of those moving parts I think really affected the last few years, but I think it's been so cool to see how God has worked to make all those things work together, even though there was such a random smattering of things over the years. And I think we've had so much fun, even though we didn't always see the plan, and I think what's cool now is that we trust the process so much more, and we trust each other so much more. We trust God. There were so many things through starting those businesses. Like, well, one of 'em provides for us now. It's a network marketing company, and I think it really has not only provided for us now, but it allows us to pursue our passions, and it helped give us thicker skin to handle rejection and stuff like that. So there were a lot of ups and downs just in that, you know, when you start one business. Elisha was getting his real estate license, so that was new for us, being employed, and then being unemployed it feels like when you don't have a deal. But I just think it's really cool that now, when we're uncertain of today or what tomorrow holds, 'cause I feel like as entrepreneurs, that is life. We just trust each other so much more, and we're like, you know God's gonna work these things together, and we see how he's using those things we started in our first few months of marriage now. [Jennifer] I think that's so encouraging, what you're sharing, because I think everybody has that tendency to wanna know what the next hundred steps are, like, see that bigger picture right away. But I think what you're saying is so encouraging to hear, to remind ourselves we have to just be able to trust God and trust our spouse with just that next step. [Elisha] Mmhmm. [Aaron] Yeah, Elisha, how do you, so, you guys have started businesses, making barely ends meet, which all of us have been there. Some people that are listening right now are probably right there right now. And you're just trying to figure out life. You guys have been married for three years, you have kids. You're just trying to figure out a lot of things, which is totally good, totally normal. But has there been times over the last few years that you feel like you're not moving in any direction, or how could God possibly use all these random difficulties and where we're at in our life? [Elisha] Absolutely. I know there's been numerous times where I've had those exact thoughts probably verbatim in my brain, and even looking back in retrospect over three years, and even though that's not a lot of time to some people, it's enough time for us to really realize that God does work all things together for good. There are some things that I know he's gonna continue to work out over the next 10 and 20 and 30 years of our life. But when you live, early on, month to month when it comes to your paycheck, and then you get pregnant in the middle of that, and then you get pregnant with your second child when you're kind of in the same position, it really makes you realize that the Lord does provide, and I think that that has helped me really embrace the season for what it is. I know that so often, everybody wants to arrive, right? You wanna be there, whatever there is. [Aaron] Yeah, whatever that there is. [Elisha] Whatever that is. [Aaron] How do we get there faster? [Elisha] Exactly. It might be a level of your income. It might be the size of your home or the quality of your vehicles that you're driving, but looking back over these last three years and seeing what the Lord's done, it's made us enjoy the journey and enjoy the process and trust the Lord in that. And when I look at those times where I was questioning what the heck I was doing with my life and what the Lord was gonna use with these things that I was doing, I look back, and so far, he's been so faithful to, in spite of me, a lot of times, use them for his purpose and for his glory. [Aaron] Yeah, so, I love that, and you know, this topic we're talking about, take inventory, is off chapter 11 of our book, and the idea of the chapter, we're not gonna go into too much of it, is that we can look at our lives and realize that there are, not certain things, that everything in our life, the inventory of our life, can be evaluated and looked at and say, okay, Lord, how are you using that season of life, that idea, that business that we wanted to start or that passion we have or that pain we felt? And so, what you're kinda saying is you've been looking back and saying, okay, I didn't know what I was doing then, but God's using that now. [Elisha] Yes. [Aaron] So when you look back over the last few years, and we're gonna get into your family in the next question, you look back over your life, taking this idea of inventory, can you guys pinpoint, be like, oh, wow, these things in our life, this way we were raised, certain giftings we have, talents, that's our inventory, that's what's on the shelf for us. Can you name a few of those things, and then we're gonna go into family next. [Elisha] Sure, yeah. We'll stick with our marriage so far, 'cause we haven't gotten into Katie and I's growing up experience, but I look at the businesses that we started in that first month, or even the job that I was doing. I was a bartender at the time, and obviously, you're dealing with people. You're dealing with all sorts of people as a bartender, and it's so easy for me to look at that season of life as being, man, I was just there to get tips and to go home and to pay rent. [Aaron] Right, meaningless waste of time, yeah. [Elisha] Exactly. [Aaron] However you feel about it. [Elisha] Yeah, exactly. And of course, I was interacting with eternal beings every day, whether that was my coworkers or my boss and my managers, and then, of course, the patrons that were coming and consuming alcohol, or buying food at the restaurant. And so I look back and I think, man, the Lord was preparing me just to have empathy and sympathy for all types of people. And then I think of the businesses that we started in that first month, and it was funny, 'cause we really acquired a lot of skillsets because we were kind of hacks when it came to, one of those businesses was an online music academy because I'm a musician, and I wanted to be able to offer my music lessons in an online format, and neither Katie or I were video people or really recording-type people. [Aaron] Yeah, but you guys did a good job. I remember you guys, it's still up, right? [Elisha] It is still up. [Katie] It is still up, yeah. [Elisha] It's effective, and people still use it. But we just figured it out. We just decided to dive in and go for it, and that was good for me to get over my pride and to let go of that perfectionism mindset that so often keeps us from taking any action. [Katie] And I think too it was good for us because, like, I remember when we first got married and you were a little more focused on your image then, and I was kind of like, I don't know, I was kind of a hack. I think I made you a little nervous, the way I threw around my image. [Elisha] Let's just do it, let's just do it. [Katie] Yeah, I was like, let's just do it, put it up. And I remember the first time I showed you a video that I was gonna post on Facebook. It was just a little parody I made, and Elisha's like, you cannot post that. Like, there is no way. [Elisha] That's funny. [Aaron] You're like, it's going up. [Katie] Yeah. Well, through Voetberg Music Academy, we ended up doing a lot of those little commercials or little parody videos together, and I think that that really, I mean, we use that now. [Elisha] Yep, absolutely. [Katie] And it just really helped us swallow our pride I think and just go for things. [Jennifer] Explain that a little bit more when you say we use that now. [Katie] Well, we use that now on YouTube is probably one of the biggest ways that we use that in just family vlogging now that we're a family on YouTube as well. And I think that that is kind of what spawned the podcast, because if we hadn't gotten enough confidence to just document our lives, I don't think we would have ever taken that next step to podcasting. [Aaron] That's good. So right now, what you're currently doing for the Lord, for your family, you can reach back into the inventory of those experiences and the inventory of those challenges, the trials and errors, and use that now and feel more confident in moving forward and, like you said, you wouldn't have been able to do it now if you didn't try it then or have those experiences. That's awesome. [Jennifer] That is so cool. Okay, so we touched on that we were gonna get into your families a little bit. Katie, you mentioned that you're from a big family, so how do you guys see the unique ways that you were raised or maybe family type being used for what God has you doing today? [Elisha] Yeah, so I was one of 10 children, all from the same mommy and daddy, and my parents are still married. They stayed married throughout our entire childhood, and they're in a great marriage. [Aaron] Which is rare these days. [Elisha] Yeah, and Katie is the oldest of 11 children, where it's same mommy and daddy for all the kiddos, and they're in a vibrant marriage right now. And so we were both homeschooled and brought up just with very Bible-centered homes. We read the Bible every single day as a family at the breakfast table, and sometimes at the dinner table, and I think that when I look at my history, not only was it an extremely enjoyable and relationship-rich time that I loved with my siblings and with my parents, and I know Katie feels the same way. [Katie] Yes. [Elisha] About her childhood, where we both just look back at them with really fond memories. I see that because my parents and Katie's parents, but I'll speak for myself right now, Because my parents become comfortable being unconventional and being counter-cultural, I grew up with this mindset that there are so many blessings in being different than the world. [Aaron] I like that. [Elisha] And I think my parents were the ones that were convicted by the Lord, and obviously, I was just along for the ride as a child and I was following in their leading, but they really exemplified to me that yes, a lot of times, initially, making those decisions to have many children or for the mom to stay home and be with the children and homeschool them or to take 'em out of the public and homeschool them, they can be challenging up front, and they can be challenging even for an extended amount of time. But the payoff is so worth it. So I think that growing up with a big family, in a big family and with parents that really trusted the Lord with their finances, with how many children they're going to have, it made me realize that I've adopted a lot of these mindsets not even knowing it. And so when I hear people that are my age say, well, we couldn't afford to have children now, I just think to myself, well, yeah you could. Where's that coming from? And I think that statements like that are so commonly accepted in our culture and in the world and they're never challenged, and I just don't believe that. I believe that you could probably find a way to afford to have children. I think that you can find a way to afford for the mother to stay home and not go to work and to even homeschool her children. And I think you can find a way to have a romantic and fun and flirtatious marriage, even while you have a bunch of kids, because I saw it exemplified to me. [Aaron] Yeah, that's the magic right there. [Elisha] Yeah, and so I'm not saying that I know how to do it; I just believe it can be done, and I think that Katie feels similarly. [Katie] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think sometimes, there is this mindset of, we have to do things how everyone else does them, and I think the way we grew up, like, I had some of the best years of my life living in a tent and a trailer, you know? Like, we did that for two years so my parents could save up a down payment for their house, and they had six kids at the time, but those are some of the best memories of my childhood. And I think sometimes, we have this misconceived perception that, oh, we need to earn this amount of money or we need to take our kids to Disneyland or we need to be able to provide these things for our kids, and I just don't have that perspective at all. Because of the way I was raised, I just have incredible relationships with my parents, and I have such amazing memories of growing up in unique situations. I guess my experience helps dispel some of those societal norms. [Aaron] Yeah. So you, you have a lot of resources at your fingertips from the way you were raised, the versatility, the flexibility to make decisions that might be, hey, if we slow down here, we can speed up over here, or if we lessen what we're spending money on over here, we can have money to do something over here. You have those things at your fingertips to use now because of how, and you didn't even get to choose it. [Elisha and Katie] Exactly. [Aaron] Right? 'Cause that's kind of some of the things that we like to point out and we want our listeners to know, fortunately your family stories are powerful and just relationally rich, and then some people listening are gonna be like, well, I didn't have a family like that. My family wasn't that great. I didn't have strong Christian parents. But our point in this idea of taking inventory is that your story and your family doesn't give you something extra. It's what God has given you. And my family story's different, similar in some ways, but different. Jennifer's family story's different. And we we don't have your story to use in what God has for us to do ministry in, right? [Elisha] That's right. [Aaron] We use our story, the inventory that we have that God's given us. And so, that's kind of what's awesome about taking inventory of our lives, is our listeners can take inventory and be like, and I wanna encourage them that are listening not to throw out their story 'cause it's not your story. [Elisha] That's right, absolutely. [Aaron] Because they do have inventory, and God wants us to look at what we have and what he's given us and say, here you go, Lord. [Elisha] That's right. [Aaron] So here's my family and how I was raised, the good things and the bad things that happened to me as a child that I had no choice in, and how do you want me to use this for you, Lord? How do you want me to invest this? How do you wanna redeem this in my life? How do you wanna turn it into something for you, not for me, not for my sake. And so, maybe that gives someone listening right now peace and actually some courage in their own inventory. [Jennifer] Yeah, and something I wanna highlight is just that how cool that God would have you guys here on the show and be able to share your story, 'cause I think it will be an encouragement to someone. 'Cause like you said, there's other ways of living that have been expressed and accepted in our culture, and your story's different, and the fact that you're here and you're sharing and whoever's listening could be encouraged by this, I love that. [Aaron] Yeah, that story by itself right now, whether it has any other implications in your life, could potentially minister to someone today, which is amazing, right? [Katie] Incredible. [Aaron] And that's just one small way that God uses what we are, what we have that he's given to us, is just by saying yes to him, which is a theme that we mention throughout our whole book, is saying yes to God. [Jennifer] Okay, so when we say yes to God, sometimes insecurities flare up, fears, things like that. So what are some of your biggest insecurities when it comes to using your gifts and talents for God? [Elisha] You know, it's funny, 'cause I think that, even piggybacking on talking about our family, our unique story and our unique experiences can often be debilitating to us, and we can oftentimes find ourselves experiencing paralysis by analysis because we feel like we're from such a unique perspective, we can't relate with people. How are we gonna be able to connect and really encourage and exhort, whether that's fellow believers or minister to people that are not saved, and oftentimes, I mean, you can look at that from two ways. One, I feel extremely strong in my faith because of what my parents have done before me, but it also makes me realize it's not about me. It's not about Katie. It's about Jesus Christ. And I think of, is it II Peter chapter one, I think it's verses three and four that whereby are given unto you all things. [Aaron] That pertain to life and godliness, yeah. [Elisha] That pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who's called you to glory and virtue. And that's not the prerequisite. The prerequisite for that is not coming from a Christian family. The prerequisite for that's not coming from the fourth generation or fifth generation of Bible-believing Christians; it's being in Christ. [Aaron] It's being in Christ. [Katie] That's good. [Elisha] It's being a new creation in Christ. But the cool thing about that is that legacy is a real thing, and you have the ability in Christ to start a new legacy. We were just at my grandfather's funeral a week and a half ago, and it was really powerful to be there with his six children and then 42 grandchildren. [Aaron] Wow, that's incredible. [Elisha] And this is my mother's father, and to hear his story of being orphaned at 12 years old, heavily abused, on the street starving, an alcoholic father who ended up being a felon, never knowing his mother and never knowing the love of Christ in his home and making a decision to follow the Lord at 16 years of age, and the legacy that's come from that. [Katie] It's incredible, and we get to benefit from that. [Jennifer] That's powerful, wow. [Elisha] Absolutely, yeah, really is powerful. [Aaron] Wow, love that. [Elisha] And so, to get back to your question, insecurities, I think it's so easy to feel inadequate, 'cause of course, apart from Christ, we are inadequate, but that's not where we're at anymore. So you need to accept the reality that hey, we're in Christ, we are a new creation in Christ, and we do have all things pertaining to life and godliness, and therefore, we are equipped. And so I think our youth can play a factor in that, not feeling old enough. [Katie] I definitely think that plays in too. You feel like, well, I don't have enough experience, you know, life experience. [Aaron] I know, you're not allowed to have a podcast about family yet until you've had a family for a super long time, right? [Katie] Exactly, exactly. [Elisha] Exactly, that's right. [Katie] So I think we do wanna be thoughtful in that and share what we're experiencing more and what we're learning in the moment versus teaching, 'cause obviously, our oldest is two, you know what I'm saying? Elisha and I have been married for three years. [Aaron] Right, there's things you actually don't know, and that's fine. [Katie] Yes. So I think we want to be wise and cautious in that, but that doesn't mean that we can't encourage someone who's in a similar situation. [Elisha] Yeah, and I think that even though there's so much that we have yet to learn and that we need to learn as life goes on, I know that Katie and I are really excited about family, and we're excited about growth, and I think that regardless of what stage of life you're in, if you're in Christ Jesus, you can be excited about the future. [Aaron] Ooh, I like that. [Elisha] I know that's where we're at right now. [Aaron] So that sounds very similar to ours. When we launched Unveiled Wife and then Husband Revolution, how long were we married? Five years? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And people even asked us, how long have you been married, like, older people, which rightfully so asking us, but I always tell people, we're not marriage experts. We've never proclaimed to be marriage experts. That would have been wrong of us to do. We're marriage storytellers. [Jennifer] Yeah, storytellers. We're sharing our experience. [Aaron] How are we failing, what's God teaching us, and again, going back to our book, one of the themes is like what you said, it's not us. It's not my experiences that is changing anyone's hearts or that has any value, other than Christ using it. And it's his story. It's his vocation, it's his ministry, not ours. It's his message, not ours. And so, as long as we're going back to the very thing that's changing us and transforming us, like, the gospel's the power of God unto salvation, right? The gospel and Christ in us through the Holy Spirit, that's what we're doing in this world. So we've had the same exact inadequacies and fears almost every time we launch anything. Launching this podcast, we were like, we don't know how to do podcasts. So I hope that encourages people listening to realize, wow, if God's calling me out, and not if, he is calling me out and wants me to follow him and wants me to use my life and the inventory of my life for his glory, they should be encouraged to know that even if they feel doubt and fear, that it's not them anyway. It's Christ doing it. [Katie] Exactly. [Elisha] Amen. [Jennifer] I think it's important to note we have a real enemy who does not like us using the gift and things that God's given us to glorify God. [Aaron] No way, yeah. [Jennifer] And so there's gonna be opposition to that, and I think our flesh is sensitive to that. So sometimes it does come in the form of insecurities or fears and things that we're afraid of, but it's just temptation from the enemy to try and distract us. [Katie] That's a great perspective. [Aaron] Yeah, but I love that you guys use wisdom and thoughtfulness. I don't think we should test God and run into the middle of the street and say, save me! [Katie] Definitely not. [Aaron] We need to present, again, going back to the taking inventory, we don't just say like, oh, I'm gonna use this thing in my life this way. No, we say, okay, Lord, here's what I have. This is what you've given me, this abuse as a child, your grandpa story, or my godly upbringing, or this schooling I went to. Whatever it is, these gifts, these natural abilities that you've given me, here you go. What do you want? How do you wanna arrange this and turn it into a clay pot or a basketball hoop or whatever it is that he wants to mold it into. [Jennifer] It's in humility and submission to his will and his purposes, which leads me to the next question. I'd love for you guys to share on this. What's the purpose of all the gifts and things that he gives to you, or to us? What is the purpose? [Elisha] Yeah, I think big picture answer is it's for God's glory and for the furtherance of the gospel. [Aaron] Yeah, we talked about this on Sunday, didn't we? [Elisha] We did, that's right, a few days ago. And the way that plays out practically with each couple I think is obviously gonna look different, 'cause there are so many different skillsets and passions. And it's fun when you accept that big picture of, man, this is for God's purpose. It's for his glory. It's for the furtherance of his kingdom. Then it almost makes it like a fun game to figure out what your skillsets are and how you can be a part of the puzzle and the pie, realizing, wait, it's not about me. I don't have to get all the credit. [Aaron] Yes, yes. [Elisha] In fact, I shouldn't get all the credit. Like, how can I fit into the strategy that God has? And I think obviously, Katie and I are in the journey of figuring that out, and something that we both talk a lot about is being aware of the desires that are on our heart, and the Lord I think oftentimes places those on your heart, and then also being open to counsel. And you can speak to this, Katie, but I think that we've gone back and forth of caring too much about what people think of us, whether that's close friends and relatives, or even people that we don't know personally, but they have their opinion online of us and we'll let that influence the action we're taking. But then you can swing the pendulum and say, well, forget what people think. I'm just gonna do what I wanna do. And there's obviously, the Bible talks about there being safety in the counsel of many. And so I think finding this place where you say, man, the Lord's put something on my heart. I wanna have a community of counsel that I can go to and be humble before, knowing that they can totally see blind spots in my life, but then also realizing I don't wanna make decisions based off of the fear of man or what somebody might say to me. [Aaron] Right. [Jennifer] So good, and I find so much encouragement in several things that you guys have already shared throughout this episode, things like have fun along the way, enjoy the journey, and I love that, and I just wanted to take note for everyone listening, and for everyone who's gonna read the book Marriage after God, because sometimes, we just tell it like it is and encourage them to do. But I want them to hear this. It is a journey to be enjoyed, and it is something to have fun with yourselves when you're figuring it out. And so I just wanted to make a note, I love that you said that. [Aaron] And the highlight in your story, just all the unique variables, we call it inventory, that God has equipped you guys with to do the unique thing that he's having you do, whatever that looks like. It could be a business. It could be just you working nine-to-five jobs, you just being a mom, but how you guys work together with your gifts and talents, we don't know, but you guys are trying things and chasing after what God wants for you and saying, okay, Lord, okay, that's not it? Okay, cool, and we'll take the experience from that. We're gonna use it for the thing that you do want us to do, and that it's this organic thing. 'Cause God knows the complete picture. [Elisha] That's right. [Katie] He does, yes. [Aaron] It says many plans are in the man's heart, but it's the Lord that directs the steps. So we have these plans, we have these ideas, and we say, if the Lord wills it, and then we take a step, and you say, okay, that's the right step. Oh, no, that's the wrong step. Let's go to this step, let's do this way, and we let him direct us. And what's awesome is along the way, whether you have reached that goal, whatever that thing is, like you said, we always have this picture of what it might be, and we actually don't even know what it might be. We just think, it's usually probably compared to someone else's thing. [Katie] Probably. [Elisha] That's usually what it is. [Aaron] But like even right now, just by you saying yes to him in all of these decisions, you're saying yes to him, and you begin to see him not only change you guys, make you guys more in love, stronger in your marriage, better parents, better brothers and sisters in Christ, but then also, you get used to grow the kingdom, just along the way. Whether you ever achieve that position or ministry or goal or whatever it looks like, it's happening along the way because you're saying yes to God, and I think that's amazing. [Elisha] Yep. [Aaron] So, do you feel like God is currently inviting you two to do anything specific, like, as you guys have been navigating with all these gifts and talents and resources? [Katie] Yeah, well, I think that it's, like we mentioned, it has been a journey. I think it's so cool to see how the Lord has had us work together in little ways right off the bat, because there is no way we'd be able to even do the projects we're working on now if we hadn't taken those little steps, and I think of with Voetberg Music Academy, where I started recording a live show and we started getting into video, but I was so insecure talking in front of a camera in front of Elisha. I wasn't insecure about the camera. [Aaron] Elisha, turn around please. [Katie] Yes! [Elisha] Exactly, she would tell me to leave. [Katie] He'd have to leave. I had a crush on Elisha since I was eight years old, and I tried my entire life to impress him. [Aaron] Oh, that's awesome. And now he's standing there in front of you. [Katie] So then after we got married, I was like, I can't do this, and he was so good at it, and he was so good at communicating that, I don't know, there was just no way we were going to ever be able to talk to a camera together. And I think it was so cool, because I started my own YouTube now that I'm a mother before we did anything online, and it was cool how that just built my confidence, and that was a little step. It was just a hobby and a fun thing, but I do think the Lord was using it to build my confidence for us to be able to start doing video together and starting the vlog, and then starting, and I think it also gave you confidence too. [Elisha] Yes. [Katie] In the flip side, to see me just putting my life out there and people being encouraged by it, and that gave you the urge I think to have us jump into that together. [Elisha] Absolutely. [Katie] Which again led to the podcast, and I do think even though we are young and we are really newly married and a new family, we do have a desire to encourage family and encourage biblical rules and encourage seeking out what God's word says about family in a culture that is so starkly opposed to just the biblical worldview. And so, I think that's our goal, and that might look different throughout the years. The mediums we use to communicate might look different, but I think for both of us, that's what God has placed on our heart, to just encourage young families in our stage of life and newly married couples. [Aaron] Yeah. So I just wanna encourage you guys, 'cause I know you both, we go to church together, we know most of your families. Whether you have direct experience with being parents of large families and have been doing for ages, or you have a two-year-old, right? [Elisha] Yeah, that's right. [Aaron] You have more experience in this than many people, because I grew up in a family of two. You grew up in a larger family, but not the way you guys did. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And whether or not you are directly experiencing it, which you are, just with a much smaller size right now, you were drawing from that inventory of how you were raised and the experience that no one has had, rarely, 10 children, 11 children, parents that stayed together that not just stayed together but love each other, 'cause that's a big thing. [Jennifer] Yeah, there's parents that stick it out. [Aaron] Lots of people, they stayed together, but it wasn't very joyful, right? [Elisha] Right, right. [Aaron] And so that's what's awesome, is whether or not you feel completely qualified, you're more qualified than me to talk about it, just by the experience you had, now, as long as we stay humble and we submit to the Lord and say we're gonna do it your way, 'cause it's his story. So I just wanted to encourage you guys that. I think that's awesome you're starting. I think we need more people, more believers. That's the whole purpose of this book, is to say yes to God and say, God, here's what you've given me. How do you wanna use it? [Elisha] Yes, amen. [Jennifer] Okay, guys, this is the last question, and it's in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Elisha] In our own words, what is a marriage after God? [Katie] Okay, you go first. [Elisha] This isn't fair, 'cause we haven't read the book yet, guys. [Aaron] This is exactly why we're asking. [Elisha] I see. You know, God invented marriage, so I really do think that he gets to choose what the purpose of marriage is, what marriage is, what the end goal is, and something that Katie and I have really been contemplating over the last few months is that when you are joined in holy matrimony, you don't then start to try to become one; he makes you one. And so therefore, you start to act like one. And I think that so often, and this carries over into our faith. We think that when you are made new in Christ, from the day you're saved, you're a son of God. [Aaron] Oh, I love that, yeah. [Elisha] You are free from sin. You're able to live as a son of God. That doesn't mean that you don't need to learn some things, but you're learning to act how he's made you to be. I think it's the same thing with marriage. Oftentimes, we think, man, we need to become one, when in reality, you are one. He says, when two are joined together, they should no longer be called two, but they should be called one. And I think that once we've started to realize that more and more, we've realized that when I make decisions that aren't to the unity of our marriage, it hurts Katie, and similarly, if it's a negative decision, and if Katie makes a negative decision, it hurts me, whether you want it to or not. And I think that once we've started to have our minds transformed, you know, our minds are being transformed because we're renewing them and starting to believe what God says about who we are as Christians and then who we are as a married couple, we start to walk that out, we start to be one. And so once again, that's just one area that God has spoken to about marriage, saying hey, you are one. There's no more two, there's no more Elisha and Katie. You are one. I don't care how you feel. I don't care how she thinks or you think, you are one. So you better start learning how to act like it. Otherwise, it's gonna be a pretty miserable journey. [Aaron] Ooh, I love that. That's awesome, yeah. So a marriage after God is one that recognizes they are one. [Elisha] That's right. [Aaron] Like, not becoming one, they are one. And so, I love that, because you're right. We're not becoming something. We are it the moment we said yes. [Jennifer] Let's live it out. [Aaron] Yeah, and so, either we're living it out or we're fighting against it. [Elisha] Yes. [Aaron] So that's awesome, amen. So, where can people find you at? What are some websites? [Jennifer] 'Cause we know people got encouraged today. They got inspired. They wanna know more about you. [Elisha] Sure, yeah, well, you already mentioned our podcast. It's Now That We're A Family, and then we've got our YouTube channel, which is also called nowthatwereafamily. [Katie] Yep. [Elisha] And Katie's on Instagram at @nowthatimamother. [Jennifer] And she's super active there. She does live videos and interviews people. [Aaron] And her photos are awesome. [Katie] Yes, I was able to interview Jenn. That was awesome. [Elisha] Yeah, that's right, exactly. [Katie] Yeah, and are you? [Elisha] I'm on Instagram. [Aaron] Yeah, is yours @nowthatimafather? [Elisha] @nowthatimafather. [Katie] @nowthatimafather, yeah. [Elisha] That's right. Yeah, so that's really where you can find us, and then our website's nowthatwereafamily.com. [Aaron] So we just wanna encourage our listeners to go follow them and check them out. They have large families, large, awesome, godly families. [Jennifer] And they're growing theirs. [Aaron] And they're throwing theirs, and God's using them. [Elisha] Right on. [Jennifer] Okay, well, at the end of every episode, we just encourage everyone to join us in prayer. So Aaron, would you like to close us out in prayer? [Aaron] Dear Lord, we thank you for the way you created us, and we thank you for your rich provision. Thank you for equipping us for the work you have for us to do. May our eyes be opened so we can see all the wonderful ways you have equipped us. Use us to encourage our spouse in the ways you have equipped them as well. We ask that you use every one of our marriages to bring you glory and to spread your gospel. We pray against fear and against the temptation to bury the gifts you have given to us. We ask that you remove our insecurities far from our hearts and help us to trust in you. We pray that we would walk in confidence as we chase boldly after you and as we pursue doing the very things you created us and created our marriages to do. In Jesus's name, amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Elisha and Katie] Amen. [Aaron] So thanks for joining us today, Katie and Elisha Voetberg. We love you guys, and we thank you for your story and your testimony. [Elisha] Mm, thank you guys, seriously. Thank you for your ministry. [Katie] Yes. [Elisha] And, I mean, I don't know if you guys are gonna keep this on, but. [Aaron] Oh, yeah. [Elisha] But just as an example you guys have shown to us I've really been thinking about this the last couple of weeks, is your guys' consistency in your faith and in your marriage and in your child training. That's a huge blessing to me as a new father. [Aaron] Thank you. [Elisha] Then also just in being in consistent community, being in consistent fellowship with our local body here. I just know that you'll be there. I know that you're a phone all or a text away and that you will be there on Sunday, and I see you guys being so faithful in your Bible times as a family, and I just never want you guys to question not only the work that's taking place in your own family, but the encouragement that is to me as a believer and I'm sure just to the global body that watches that. [Katie] Yes, you've been such a blessing to our family. [Jennifer] Thank you for sharing that, that's awesome. [Aaron] Thank you, well, yeah, I appreciate that. [Elisha] Actually, I'm gonna say one more thing. Just 'cause I don't know how many people you're gonna have on your podcast that go to your local church, but being the father of a two-year-old boy, I've really started to think more and more about child training within the church service content. And we've been going to church for almost two and a half years now with you guys and seen how you guys have been able to really train your children to sit in church is so inspiring. [Katie] Oh my goodness, yeah. [Elisha] You guys, I know that most of you listeners probably are never gonna have an opportunity to sit in church with Aaron and Jen, but their kids are so well behaved. They sit on their laps, and the only reason that's so remarkable to me now is because I've got a two-year-old, and it feels like I'm in a jiu jitsu match throughout the entire church service with him. [Katie] Yeah, we're trying to take notes from Aaron and Jen. [Elisha] Yeah. [Aaron] Well, thank you. [Elisha] Yeah, no, it's true. [Aaron] Yeah, thank you, I appreciate that. [Jennifer] It is about consistency, I would say, just to encourage others out there. The children just, they're awesome and they're a blessing to us. [Aaron] And it takes lots of hard work, and lots of prayer, and lots of screaming in pillows. [Katie] There you go. [Aaron] So, hey, thank you, that was really encouraging. We love you guys, and all you listening, we love you, and we thank you for joining us, and we pray that you will continue on in this journey with us as we have a few more episodes in this series. We'll see you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Nick and Drew record on location at Granville Island with special appearances from Ian Kaart, The Dark, Ali Bruce, Victoria Sieczka, Gumboots, and Guillaume. Stay tuned all the way for a special clip show featuring Katie So and Phil Bo.

Nick Pound and Katie So are joined by Ali Bruce for an April Fool's/Easter/Passover/Sunday special episode. We discuss winter sports, chocolate and tall women.

Hosts Nick Pound and Katie So are joined by Victoria Sieczka to discuss monster trucks, digital art and some exciting new products from entrepreneur/inventor Tom Ronson

Katie: So, tell me about a time you saw a spark at Starfire.Tim: There was a young man that was coming here, Kyle, and he would walk around our day program, and he would walk in a very different way. He would turn his toes inward and make these sideways steps, and he would kind of walk around corners very intentionally. And, I remember, at the time we had a few staff who thought this was a really big problem – that he was acting strangely or it wasn't appropriate. One staff, a guy named Jon, had noticed that this young man had kind of an interest in martial arts, in ninja-kind of stories. And Jon actually noticed that what Kyle was doing was not strange or weird, it was actually a form of martial arts.So, the first spark was the noticing of that staff, saying, “Huh? I wonder if this isn't just weird or this isn't just strange or this isn't just a behavior problem. What if this is an intentional clue into who this person really is? Maybe this is one form of communication of who they think they are and who they were born to be.” As a result, another staff started to invite in a local martial arts master to teach for the reason of cultivating this interest that was noticed with this young man. So, Kyle gets an opportunity now, because of these two staff, to be in the presence of somebody who could be a mentor, or a sensei if you will, to his unfolding or emerging identity around the martial arts.A few months later, Kyle is having a planning session. His family is coming and our staff are gonna be there. We're thinking about who is Kyle. And, Bridget says, “We should be inviting Master Korchak, the martial artist that had been teaching the class. He should come and help us think about Kyle's future.” So again, here's the next spark, the idea that Master Korchak is not only here to teach about martial arts but he might come to a meeting to help us all imagine what Kyle's future could look like. And he carries a really interesting part of it, which is this interest, a passion that Kyle has for martial arts. And he knows a lot about that, he's dedicated his whole life and career to this. So, he'd be a logical person to invite in.So, in the planning session, they started talking about martial arts and when it came up that Kyle was interested. And the whole circle, everybody in the room – the family and our staff kind of came up with the idea that there's some Special Olympics classes they could explore around the martial arts and that's a legitimate thing for people to think of. However, Master Korchak said, “I think he could do my class. I do it every Monday and I think he could come. He's already good enough to be a part of that. It's a self-directed journey for everyone that's in the class, and Kyle's got enough of an interest and enough of capabilities to participate.”So, right there you see another spark: validation of Kyle's passion by an expert in his field, and an invitation out of the disability world, or the special world, and into the regular world, the regular martial arts class. And that really helped that family, I imagine, that everything they believed and knew about him, which is that he deserved a full life and a community was actually true. That there was somebody out there who believed what they believed. So again, you see this fanning of the flames.So this was 2012, when all this happens, and Kyle starts taking these classes, and we just received an email about a month ago that Kyle has his black belt in gumdo. And that's actually a story that we're gonna share next on this series. It took a lot of people to hold the flame of his passion. Kyle, himself, of course, insisting on a life that relates to martial arts. It was our staff, the paid people in Kyle's life, people in the martial arts community, as well as it was his family. So, it was everybody kind of acting with intention and helping this thing to move forward.That's one path, is what happens when a bunch of people keep contributing in little ways over time. Also important to notice, is how very fragile each point along that journey is. Is that it could have been smothered by the doubt of a staff, the certainty of a staff, the doubt of the family, the fear of a community member, lack of ambiguity from Kyle about where does this even go, why invest in this. So, there's so many places along the story where it could've all fallen apart. To us at Starfire, the biggest tragedy would be that a story like this would be lost. And, we actually think that this happen an awful lot. People's stories get lost because we're not fanning the flames, and we accidentally smother the points at which these kinds of stories and lives could emerge. So, we really believe that when you notice a spark, the key is to notice it and then to notice your own doubts or worries or concerns, and then to tamper those a little bit, and provide room for that spark to turn into a flame, to catch fire, to spread wildly in a way that would really ignite someone's whole community, their whole family, their whole selves, their whole future

On this week's Mr. Franchise, Christopher invites out Olivia Harrison and Katie So to discuss the Martial-arts/Western/Comedy films Shanghai Noon and Shanghai Knights. Together they relive the mile a minute quips of Owen Wilson and the jaw dropping (as well as bone breaking) stunts of Jackie Chan before they lasso each flick and brand them with a red hot 5 star review . Here is a link to week's recommendation Dent May's new album "Across The Multiverse" : https://dentmay.bandcamp.com/album/across-the-multiverse Buy that shit and support a great musician! Rate, Like , Subscribe and find us on: Facebook and Twitter @Mrfranchisepod Itunes, Stitcher, Soundcloud + Many More Pod Apps @Mrfranchise Instagram @shoreloser

Katie: So, why is the concept of staying important to Starfire's work?Tim: There is a great quote by Wendell Berry, and he talks about the marriage vows and they are not for better and for richer and for health, they are for better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness and health. He says that in staying we learn something closer to the truth which is that not everything in life is happy, and not everything in life is great. I think people with disabilities and their families that I know, relate that there is a great joy in life, especially when they get included and supported and loved in a way that we at Starfire hope that they could be. That continues to be a struggle for them and their families. So, if we can think about staying in solidarity, and in fraternity, and in relationship with people, we can be with them in that struggle, and it can lead to some good things, but it could be tough, many tough days.I also think that when we think about “staying” we think about that same quote reminding us that there's going to ups and downs and it might be tempting to leave. Leaving is an assumption that somewhere else is going to be better, but staying seems to be an invitation and a commitment to making this place better or this life better or this relationship better. So staying implies, in the depth of that concept, that I'm not just going to get out of here; I'm not going to leave you or this place. I am going to be here. There are going to ups and downs and good days and bad days, but I am still going to be here. So I think staying through those good days and bad days, and through the struggles and through the joys, and paying attention to the closer you get to the truth of what life is all about, what inclusion is all about.Inclusion is not all happy and fun; it means I accept you as you are.I believe you can do better, but I accept you as you are. And you belong already; there is no need for you to have to earn it or prove that you are valuable, more valuable than you already are, so the idea of stay relates to peace. It relates to rest; it relates to some sort of satisfaction, and it relates to time in a really great way that I chose to commit myself to people, or a place, or to an idea, in a way that just gives the long story a chance to unfold. People with disabilities have a really small degree of imagination of story and imagination around their lives. There is a very short story about disability. It fits in this box and goes here and these people go here and that is what defines their life. So it is not a very big story and if we can stay with people and help nurture and participate in their journey and struggle for a better life, then we can see that there is a better story. You have to stay to see that better story.Katie: Is it important to talk about staying because that isn't a common reality for people with disabilities for in their lives that people often do not “stay”?Tim: Yeah, I mean, when we look at the people that we support and the people that we love and know with disabilities, we see a lot of leaving in their lives. You've got professionals that are in and out depending on their next job, or if they got fired or promoted or left. So, there's this constant turnover. And if we're being really honest, we hear that there's a lot of absence of community and rejection sometimes for people with disabilities and their families. And, an absence and rejection is a leaving of sorts. Right? Like, you're left alone. We're outta here. We're not gonna be with you anymore. So, when you've got a disability, you've got this turnover almost in your life. Your social stories are very short. People are in it for a few minutes or a few hours or a few weeks or months as professionals, they're not really in it for a long period of time. So, the counter, the antidote would be staying, the people that are there for a long time.There's also just an interesting, I would call it a creative limitation, that people with disabilities and their families are inviting us into.A lot of people I know who have disabilities can't drive. And so, their mobility is limited. They might not be able up and move to a new city for college because college isn't even an option. Or, they would lose their funding if they moved out of state. Or, the public transportation system doesn't actually travel between cities, you know. So, the mobility of people with disabilities is really physically limited, and the options of moving about are limited. So, then if we're asking the question, “How might someone with a disability have a good life?” one of the factors is we that we think the reality is they're going to be limited in how they move about.So, we would want to develop local networks and really have people who have stayed around them be part of the story, that would have known them for a long time. The last aspect of stay that I can think of that really matters is that staying relates to taking care of a place and the people in that place. So, there's another great essay that Wendell Berry wrote about his family's farm and the generations of his family that have taken care of that place. And there's a, by taking care of that place, they're taking care of the people around them and of that place too. So, people who take care of a neighborhood or take care of a block, or take care of a city; because they've lived there their whole lives, those are the kind of people who create a culture where somebody's looking after the place and the people in it.And, if we could have more people stay and own the caretaking of places, and root themselves deeply, they would grow big networks, and they would, over time, probably build a culture that was very conducive to the lives of people with disabilities and that culture.Katie: So, last question. Who do you think is called to stay? And, how do they do that?Tim: I think we're all called to stay. However, I don't think that any of us are required to stay. There are good reasons for moving on from relationships and places. You can't afford it, or the person you're committed to turns out not to be the person that you thought they were, and that's dangerous. But, I think that the problem is that if we don't leave the potential for staying open, then we don't ever invest deeply. We don't get to know the people around us because we're already out the door. We're buying this next house in order to flip it in five years, and move to a new place. So, why would we invest in each other? Why would we care about each other's well-being? Why would we look out for our neighbors? Why would we bring flowers to the woman whose husband passed away across the street? Why would we, you know, get to know the kids on our block if we're gonna be gone in a few years' time? So, the temporary-ness that we start with is key. Or the permanency.If we start with an idea that this might be a place that I stay, and we find out that it's not, that's great because the assumption was there to begin with, and we invested as if we were going to stay. I once met a woman who really challenged me on that. And she said, “I was a military kid. I had to move.” She said, “And, I'm still a military wife now.” And she said, “I still have to move.” And she said, “But every place I go, I invest like I'm gonna be there for the rest of my life.” That was awesome and beautiful.She didn't forego relationships, she didn't create an absence in the neighborhood or in the families around her by assuming that she would be gone. She actively, intentionally said I'm going to invest, because I know I'm gonna be gone but I still need to take care of this place by investing in it as though I'm gonna live here myself.So, if I'm a person with a disability and I don't get to move, but everybody around me is flipping their houses every five years, and everybody is of the mindset that they're outta here in a few years, then quickly my condition deteriorates, and I could be stuck. And, instead of staying, I'm stuck. Everybody around me – no one knows me. No one's built a great garden that I can be a part of. Nobody knows when my birthday is. And, I'm not a part of their world either.

Episode 1 of the SNAGcast! Your hosts Nick Pound & Drew Young welcome Katie So & Stefan Tosheff to the podcast as they try and figure out the format of the show. They discuss, murals, professional failure, Sean Paul and Tinder. http://katie.so/ http://stefantosheff.com/ contact us at: snagcast@gmail.com

This week, we have a brief discussion about how third party ad networks affect performance on news sites before talking with Sophie Shepherd. Sophie is a Senior Designer at Ushahidi, a non-profit software company that develops free and open-source products for information collection, visualization, and interactive mapping. We discussed the challenges of designing for international users with minimal data speed, how Ushahidi brings data and information to regions with nearly no connection, designing with task completion in mind, and more. ##Show Links: Sophie Shepherd Follow Sophie on Twitter Ushahidi Lara Hogan - A List Apart - Showing Performance Global Mobile Book Eric Meyer Crisis Design Rust Belt Refresh ##Transcript Katie: Welcome. You're listening to Episode 8 of The Path to Performance, the podcast dedicated to everyone to make the web faster. I am your host, Katie Kovalcin. Tim: And I'm your other host, Tim Kadlec and yeah, you nailed it; this is Episode 8. Well done! Katie: I was like, oh yeah, I totally know which episode it is. Wait: no, I don't. This is Episode 8. Tim: I mean, it's understandable; the numbers are getting higher, it's getting harder and harder. Katie: Totally out of control it's on more than one hand now! Tim: Yeah, once you've thrown that second hand, things get really complicated. It gets worse when you have to start taking off the socks and using your toes as well! That's where I always get hung up! Katie: You can wear flip-flops and then you don't have to worry about it. Tim: True, true. Katie: How are you, Tim? Tim: I'm doing OK; I'm actually wearing flip-flops right now! Yeah, I am! Katie: It's warm in Wisconsin? Tim: It is warm, for once. Yeah, I'm doing good; enjoying my day. And you? Katie: I'm good as well. The sun is shining here, which is a very rare thing in Ohio this summer and I feel like I have been whining about it for so long but today, I'm not whining. Tim: That's good! That's good! I'm guessing, we could maybe one of these times maybe we'll have an episode where we just kind of whine all the way through, but otherwise I think people probably enjoy the non-whining better. Katie: We can just have a bummer episode! Tim: Yeah, just a downer of an episode where we just air all our grievances about everything… Katie: We just talk in emo voice, just like…mwww…yeah, the web does actually kinda suuuuck… Tim: Yeah, exactly! I think this goes over well, I think this is maybe like a special Christmas edition. Katie: That is a really good idea. Tim: Right in time for the holidays. Katie: Christmas Bummer Episode! Tim: This is brilliant. That has to happen; I'm writing this down. Anyway, but glad to hear you're doing good now on this totally not Christmas at all episode. That's good. Katie: Yeah, on this summer-sunshine flip-flop fun-time episode! Tim: Yay! Katie: So, on the note of cool things, there's this episode from the Washington Post where in kind of a similar fashion, I know we talked a couple of months ago about Vox sort of declaring performance bankruptcy, Washington Post kinda did the same thing and talked about in an article the other day and that was pretty cool. They mentioned it sort of being in response to the instant articles and talking about just ads on news sites generally kind of sucky for performance, but I really liked this quite that it ended on that we have very little control over ads that load late or slowly but we wanted to make the core use experience as solid as possible because that is what we have control over and that's kind of a cool way to think about performance, just focusing on making good the core part that you do have control over. Tim: Yeah, and I think that's just generally awesome advice for anybody, because the ad work stuff comes up a lot and you have very little control over those third party ad networks and unfortunately a lot of them are super-slow right now but also essential for business but I like that they made the clear distinction between their core experience and understanding that the ads is just something you're going to have to tack on afterwards but mitigate the issues as much as possible. I think that's just really solid advice for any publisher. Katie: Yeah, absolutely. It's a nice article, it's a quick read; I recommend giving that a little skim or browse. Tim: Definitely. And then of course, Lara Hogan, who has made a habit out of writing good things over and over and over again or providing good performance advice in general, she wrote a post for A List Apart about showing performance; basically getting into some of the things she talked about way back in Episode 1 with us and also in her book about the importance of making performance visual: going into the dashboards and things like that, that they have up at Etsy and making sure that people can actually see the difference in performance. Katie: Yeah, she tweeted a little quick video a while ago and it might actually be in that article, I haven't had a chance to read it yet; it's on my to-do list but she posted a video of their video systems and it's really cool, it's really awesome to see that. Did I tell you that Lara, she talks about donuts all the time and donuts being her reward for good performance, achievements, good things like that, and when I saw Lara in New York a couple weeks ago, she took me to The Donut Spot that's in her neighborhood and I was so excited! Tim: Yeah, you told me. She's never taken me to The Donut Spot. I'm a little disappointed. I'm excited for you though: that sounds really cool. That's kind of… Katie: You know what? It was a really good donut because she says she's not a fan of the hipster donuts with a bunch of stupid toppings like cereal and candy bars and crap. Tim: Like the voodoo donuts thing in Portland? Katie: Yeah. These are just some straight-up home-town donuts in Brooklyn; I guess not really home-town but they were good! Tim: That's good. This is just like plain glazed? I want to know how far down the rabbit hole you went. Katie: We got banana…no, not banana: they were like custard-filled ones with the chocolate icing. I'm not a donut expert but those good ones! Tim: Gotcha, OK. That's a safe choice. Katie: Not the white sugary whipped cream-filled, the kind of yellowy-custard cream-filled ones; those are good ones. I don't know the distinction: is one cream and one custard? Is one icing and one cream? I don't know. Tim: I think it's usually like an icing and cream thing. Depending on where you go, it's almost like pure frosting is what it tastes like you're eating… Katie: Yeah, like you bite in and you're just like, oh my… Tim: Yeah, it's like there's frosting on the outside of the donut and frosting shoved down the inside as well and you just feel the cavities forming as you're eating them. It's great. It's a really good experience. But that's good. No, I did not…you did tell me this and that's very awesome, very cool. It's kinda like… Katie: Sorry; I'm obviously still thinking about that. Tim: I don't blame you. Katie: It was an experience. But, back to today's episode! We are talking to Sophie Shepherd and the big reason we wanted to get Sophie on here is not only because she's an awesome designer but because she has experience with working on products that are primarily used in developing countries that typically have the less than ideal device scenarios that we kind of always talk about in theory but she has some really great insight on talking a bout it in practice and actually designing for those devices and scenarios so it's going to be really interesting. Tim: Yeah, it'll be a nice fresh take, a different perspective than we usually get. Very cool. Katie: Cool. Well, let's go hear from Sophie. Katie: And we're back with Sophie Shepherd from Ushahidi. Sophie; can you tell us a little bit about Ushahidi and what exactly that is? Sophie: Sure. So, the what exactly it is, it's a Swahili word that means "Testimony". A lot of people are like, "Usha-what?" so it's not English so don't feel bad if you can't say it. And the company was founded in 2008 in Kenya so in 2008 what was happening in Kenya. there was an election that was fairly corrupt and there was quite a bit of violence broke out and some bloggers who were in Kenya and living in Kenya realized that they needed to do something to help out as well as just writing about what was happening, so they made a product in which people could submit reports of different places where the election was happening, different polling stations and this way they could say, there's been violence here, someone was killed here or this is a safe place where you can go to vote, or there's fraud happening. And what Ushahidi does is it takes all of these different reports and collects them into one place and provides a list and a map for them. So that's how it was founded; it's now a number of products but the name of our main platform is still Ushahidi and the purpose of it is still too collect data, crowd-source data. It's oftentimes gets mapped but isn't necessarily, we're re-doing the platform right now so that it's not only map data; it can really be anything that users submit. Katie: Awesome. So, spoiler alert, I know Sophie really well so I know the details of what she does and what really struck me and why I wanted to get her on the podcast so bad is because you deal a lot with users that are in places that have really poor connectivity and the products that you're designing are really crucial information that they need to get to. Can you talk a little bit about all of that and the challenges that you face when designing for that? Sophie: Sure. So, I think something that's really interesting is that it's not only poor connectivity but the kind of contexts in which people are using our products are unique. Not exclusively, but oftentimes they're used in crisis situations, so people don't have a whole lot of time. A lot of the time, the power could be down or internet could be down, so it's not only we have to think about connectivity but also ways that people are submitting information. This has been the first project I've worked on where it's not just, when we talk about performance, it's not just people needing to load something fast but it's about access and accessibility so, built into our product is people can anonymously text stuff in and that'll become a part of our system so it's really thinking about this whole ecosystem of access and ways of submitting information rather than just a website. Katie: Can you talk a little bit about what that means exactly, more than just a website? How else are you working around those connectivity and accessibility issues? Sophie: Yes, well, Ushahidi as a whole, not only with our platform but we have a lot of other companies that have spun out from the product itself, so there's a company Brick which is really, really awesome. It was founded by someone who was also a founder in Ushahidi and they make wifi devices that are super-rugged; they work off 3G connections so you can take those anywhere. We were in Kenya and they have all these attachments so it can be solar-powered wifi, so we had a group meeting in Kenya and we were all accessing the internet in the middle of nowhere on a beach from this device we had. So, it's thinking more about getting people information. Similarly we do a lot with SMS so if someone only has a phone they can text in a report or receive a response saying, OK, this has been confirmed, through their phone. Tim: This is fascinating stuff. I always think it's very interesting to hear the perspective outside of what we're used to in the little bubble that we get to live in here in the United States tech industry. This is taking everything in terms of the importance of building something that is going to work on different devices and the importance of building something that's going to perform well and this is really scaling up the importance of doing that, the vitality of doing that from just business metrics to, like you're saying, people's lives at stake in some of these cases. I'm curious; you mentioned being in Kenya and using those devices to get access. You can't obviously develop all the time in Kenya, so how are you finding ways to get that experience here, when you're building stuff from the United States so that you're feeling what it's going to be like on those, a 2G or a 3G connection or whatever it happens to be? Sophie: It's definitely a challenge for me because not only am I working every day on a really good connection but I've never really not had that; maybe five years ago my connection was not as good as it was now but I think I've always been as far as connection speeds in the one per cent, but we have a really great user advocacy team at Ushahidi so this is not only thinking about performance and website metrics, but we have a whole team that is dedicated to making sure that our users are satisfied, listening to what their needs are and responding in that way and also helping them, because this is a product that then gets extended and they can download it and set up their own deployments to use the product so we have a team that works really closely with people who are actually using it, which is terrific because we get a lot of feedback through that. Tim: I was going to say, are some of the team members in Kenya? Sophie: Uh-huh. Yeah, we have one person in Kenya, one person in Canada and then we have as part of, we have a specific user testing wing that's in Kenya but what they do is, since they are so in touch with people who use this stuff all over the world, they're good at being able to not only test it in Kenya but test it elsewhere and talk to…we have a large group using this stuff in Nepal right now because of the earthquake so they're in touch with them, checking that everything's working OK, getting any feedback from them. Katie: Do you tend to look at what specific devices the majority of users in these areas are using and start building and testing there or how does that work out? What's the size of an iPhone, that tends to be our default? What devices are you really thinking about in those areas? Sophie: It's interesting because right now, we are in the midst of re-building this product and so a lot of the people out there who are using it right now are using Version 2 which is the older version and at this point I don't even know how many years old it is but it's fairly outdated. It still works really well but it's not responsive; it's hard, we've noticed that quite a lot of people are using it on a desktop but that's only because it doesn't work very well on a phone so it'll be really interesting, we're launching the new one which is fully responsive and a lot more modern in this way to see how people end up using it. But it's tough because we can't say, iPhone users use this because it's used really everywhere in the world so maybe if it's used in the US it is going to be on an iPhone more, whereas elsewhere, it's Android but we try to cast a really wide net so there's an Android app that will be used for collecting information, you can submit by SMS. The new version's going to be totally responsive so what we try to do is not really focus on one but make sure that everyone can use it. Katie: So, you've been working on a responsive re-design and everything we've talked about has been the poor connectivity and all of that. How has performance played into those decisions when building this site or the product again for this new version? Sophie: It's a continuous consideration and process of checks and balances. One thing is that, thinking about images: part of this new system is we're able to have people submit images as part of their reports so that's something that we still have not quite figured out how we should work with how to then deliver those back to people and also thinking about different JavaScript libraries that we're using. It's a constant balance, so I think we're still figuring it out. We've done quite a bit of user-testing but more UX user-testing but the application itself is not totally done, it hasn't been built yet, so I think that's to come in terms of optimizing how it's going to work exactly. But from the design and front-end, we've definitely been keeping things really light and really the only question that we have is how we're going to treat images. Tim: Is it primarily a matter of using them or not using them or is it a degree of compression in terms of getting them to a point where maybe they're a little pixilated and ugly but they're balanced: the trade-off is that they're going to perform well on those types of networks? What are you battling with, with the images? Sophie: Well, I think basically every single image that is ever going to be on the site is going to be submitted by a user, so we don't know exactly the sizes of images that are going to come in and then at what point we are then going to compress them or shrink them and how we're going to do that and then how they're going to then be delivered back out. Yeah. Tim: So it's getting a system in place for all the user-generated content? Sophie: Exactly, yes. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: So, you talk a lot about style guides and patter libraries and Sophie I know that's how you like to design and work. What is that process looking like? Do you do testing as you go on designs and see how performing it is or how fast it's loading under those different circumstances? Can you just talk a little bit about your design thinking? Sophie: Yeah. What we have been doing is we did all the UX fairly separately, thinking about just user flows and how things were going to be laid out and how things should work and then we did some visual design and then we started combining these by building the pattern library, so we took out patterns from visual design and eventually we've just started building templates and designing in the browser because we have enough of these patterns to build upon and it's been really great; this is the first time that I've worked in this way and what I really love about it is that each of our patterns and components basically stand on their own so it's really easy to look at them and understand exactly where certain weights are coming from. By designing modularly, we can pull those out rather than seeing a page as a whole and not really understand what's causing what. Tim: In a prior episode, we were talking to Jeff Lembeck of Filament Group and he mentioned what he called the "Jank Tank" which is this big box of basically ugly, horrible, slow devices. Considering how wide the net you're spreading, do you have anything similar? Is there a Ushahidi Jank Tank that you guys go to? Sophie: There isn't, but I love that idea. Tim: Yeah, I think we were fans of that too. Sophie: Is it like…what does he mean exactly? Tim: The idea was having… Sophie; …lowest common denominator kind of devices? Time: Yeah, basically grabbing cheap devices or old devices and firing those up: things that are going to be maybe a few years old and are probably going to be a huge challenge to make things feel fluid and work well on those and you have those handy to test them out and see what honestly might be a more typical user would experience than the high end stuff. Sophie: Yeah, we don't have that here in the States; I feel bad calling it a Jank Tank because that's negative-sounding, but in the office in Kenya, they have…they all work in a building and there's quite a few tech companies that work in there and they have something like a Mobile Device Lab and I think it was sponsored by a mobile company there but I was there earlier in the year and it kind of blew my mind; I put a picture of it on Twitter that we can refer to in the Speaker Notes. But that was all of these phones that were phones that I hadn't even necessarily seen, that they don't sell in the States, and they're all used for testing so at some point probably now that I'm talking about it, I'm realizing we should do it sooner rather than later, they have a whole testing lab there that we can test this product on. Tim: Nice. A mobile device lab does admittedly sound a little bit more ??? serious. Katie: Everything that you're saying sounds like, just tying in that accessibility and performance are going hand in hand and it sounds like you've just learned a great deal of empathy in your time there. Is that true and has that influenced your design? Sophie: Yeah, definitely. I think something that has really changed in my mind is thinking about when doing the design, what actions are people going to want to take, so I think that goes with performance too: if we can only load this one button that says "submit a report" and skip all of the images then that's the most important thing, so, really thinking about where to guide people and what the most important and crucial actions are before loading and everything else, so as a designer that's been definitely something that, previously I was doing client work and it was like we had this long list of requirements that we had to fit in and now it's kind of re-assessing and re-prioritizing what requirements actually are and having different levels of this is the one thing they need to really use this app and then here's all of this other helpful stuff that could be called crucial but isn't actually life or death crucial. Katie: That's really interesting. Do you think that there's any way that, for those of us still working on client projects, to have those conversations with the client to try to be like, "no, really, but the marketing video isn't truly required"; exercises in priority and stuff: do you have any tips for paring down those requirements? Sophie: I think it's tough if your talking to a marketing person because they'd be like, "no, literally I'm going to die if I don't get this on there." Katie: And you're like, "no, literally, people are on our products like…" Sophie: Yeah. I think any time it's easier to say, "does this go above this in the priority list" people are willing to answer that question rather than either or. So, in general, communicating and deciding things I would recommend ordering rather than choosing people to sacrifice things. Tim: And it seems like that's clarified too in, I would guess one of the reasons why it works so well where you are is because that task, if you're looking at what the most important thing for the user to do is, it's so very clear and so very critical whereas on maybe on a more traditional thing where you're working with marketers or whatever, they may not have as clear a sense of, what is the ultimate purpose of this site? And then it becomes a lot harder to do the prioritization without that. Sophie: Yeah; it's funny because we're in the process right now of re-designing the company site as well as re-designing the product itself and it shouldn't be, because there's no life or death, but it's so much more complicated to prioritize stuff on the company site because there's so many different types of audiences and services that it needs to provide whereas on the app itself, it's pretty clear to say, what's the most important action for someone to take. Tim: Within the new site, do you still have to take into consideration a lot of the same sort of constraints in terms of the different devices and connectivity because that's who your audience is that you're marketing to, or are you marketing to a different group through the site? Sophie: Yeah, the site will be, well that's up for debate; that's I think what we're still trying to figure out. I think by default it's a good idea to not ever say, "oh well only people in the States with nice phones are going to look at this" just because that's a dangerous attitude to have, but it's possibly less of priority for the site itself. Tim: So, going back to prioritizing performance within the actual apps and stuff that you're doing: did you have set targets that you were looking at when you were working V3 of this? Were there hard-set goals; we are not going to go over this amount of weight or we are not going to take longer than this for the map of data to appear or anything like that? Sophie: Yeah, so we set a performance budget and we've set a few of them; we set one for the front-end so what we've done is build this pattern library and we have all of our, we're calling them "weight-outs" which are basically our different views within the app itself. So we had an initial goal for that, that we've met and then we set a separate one for the build itself and that's still in process, so hopefully we can get around that target. I like this too because instead of having one end-goal we can really check as we go. Tim: Yeah, it's nice to have it broken down like that. Can we ask what the targets are, just out of curiosity? Sophie: I can look them up but I don't know them right now. Tim: That's fine. Just curious. Was it in terms of the weight or is it a different sort of, more like an experience-focused metric or anything like that, that you're targeting? Sophie: Yeah, we did a weight and a load time. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: It sounds like you've worked in some of the perceived performance thinking too when you're saying, what's the critical information to load first. Sophie: Yeah, for me as a designer, that's definitely something that I can relate to more and I think in some ways it's possibly more important. I think they work as a team but… Tim: I think it is. And I think that's…I think or I hope that that's what, within the performance community, the people who really that's what they do focus on, I think that that's where everything is starting to, we're starting to wake up to that and certainly to shift towards understanding that it really is about the experience and making sure that the critical things are coming in, whatever the top task, whatever the most important features are on the page or coming in and measuring those sorts of things, instead of this blind race to the finish that we've kind of had in the past. Sophie: Yeah. I'm curious to see how that thinking changes because I love the idea of a performance budget but I think sometimes it can be a little limiting and you wouldn't want to sacrifice certain things just to fit into the performance budget. Not limiting, but I think it's very concrete whereas it should be a fairly fluid depending on context of the site itself. Tim: Sure, yeah, it doesn't dictate what goes on; it's another consideration or it's part of another piece in the puzzle. Sophie: Right. At the same time, it's the easiest way to communicate goals. Tim: True. It's hard to without it having a hard set thing, it's very hard, yeah. Sophie: Yeah, until you have the design done, you can't say, OK, our goal is that this is going to load and then this is going to load this much later. It helps to have a number that everyone can refer back to. Katie: So, when you say for everyone to communicate, who is that? Is that between you and the developers? Is this something that your leadership is really that's close to their heart as well? Sophie: Yeah, I think when I said that it was more coming from my experience with client work, where you're using this number as a kind of tactic to force a client to decide on certain things. For us, since we're all working internally, I think definitely any…basically, everyone wants to see it be as fast as it possibly can, so we're all working towards the same thing. Katie: Is there ever a push-back to even like, "OK, now that we've hit that, let's try another goal that's even faster"? Sophie: Not yet, because we haven't launched it, but I wouldn't be surprised if we launch it and get certain feedback that it wasn't loading or it wasn't working quite right on something. I'm really curious to see once it's out there and people are using it, how people respond. Katie: Yeah, I'm really curious to see what metrics you find out from that. Tim: Did you make a distinction…there's the cutting the mustard approach that the BBC popularized which is the core experience goes to maybe older, less capable browsers/devices and the enhanced experience goes to everybody else. One of the things that that fails at, or that doesn't take into consideration which seems like it would be really important for Ushahidi is the situation where you have somebody is on a very nice device but the connectivity is really awful. Did you have to make any distinction between different experiences or do you just have one experience and that experience itself is extremely lightweight, no matter what the scenario is? Was that enough for you to accomplish or you needed to do? Sophie: Yeah, that's funny; we had our company retreat in Kenya so it was I think maybe about half, maybe a little less of our company is in the US so we all went there with our snazzy iPhones and still couldn't connect to anything and it really, I think in terms of empathy, made us realize: oh, wait a second. But in terms of yeah, I think we're just going to try to make it fast for everyone. We don't have a whole lot of enhancements for people on quicker systems yet. Katie: When you were in Kenya, were there any things that were especially awful to try to load, like you're used to just being part of your everyday life? I'm just curious. Sophie: I remember reading Twitter, on the Twitter app and everything loaded except for the pictures and it made you realize just how often people supplement their tweets with pictures; I remember getting really frustrated about it. Katie: That's interesting. Sophie: But I didn't even really try to do a lot of stuff because it really didn't look very well. Same thing on Instagram; it's like sometimes this progressive loading thing; I would rather it not load at all than, oh, I see all of these people posted great pictures that I can't look at. I'd rather not know than… Katie: Or like the tweets having fomo, oh, you had a joke and I can't see the punch-line! Sophie: Exactly! Katie: That's really interesting because when we're just designing here in a bubble it's like, "well I think that would be fine for you to just know that it's there but not see it" but then when you're actually using it, you're like: no, this sucks. Sophie: Yeah, it's like actively frustrating. Tim: How often do you get to Kenya? Sophie: I'm new to the company; I've only been here since the beginning of the year but I think they do a retreat every year but not necessarily always in Kenya; I think every other year it's in Kenya. And I think other people on the team, it depends, we'll do these what we call Hit Team Meetings because everyone is remote and then mini-teams will get together and all work together for a week so those have been all over the place since people live on opposite ends of the world, depending on who's meeting they usually choose a place that is fairly central for everyone to get to. Katie: We'll start to have a list of sites, Sophie, how much is this really crappy, wherever you end up going… Sophie: How long does this take? Katie: Look it up and tell me how much it sucks. Sophie: It is cool to have people on the team everywhere for that reason. Tim: Sure, I bet that gives you a really nice overall picture of a whole bunch of different landscapes from a technical perspective. Sophie: Yeah. Katie: I know, I didn't prepare a list of questions like I should have! Tim: It's all right, I'm actually having a lot of fun just going off the cuff on this, knowing almost nothing. I did a little bit of research and I had heard of Ushahidi from this big fat book about mobile on a global scale that was put out a couple of years ago. Sophie: That's cool. What was that book? Tim: It's called Global Mobile. It's six hundred pages and each chapter is written by a different author on a different topic and I think Ushahidi came up twice… Sophie: Oh, that's awesome. Tim: …in the book. Sophie: Do you know what they referenced or what it was…. Tim: One was just talking about how…I don't remember one of the references in much detail. The other one I know that they were talking about a variety of different mobile technological solutions that were out there; I think they were focused primarily on Africa in that chapter or similar areas and they were talking about the different services that are making use of technologies that we might consider a little bit more simple, but they're doing really powerful things with it and so I think that they were focused on the SMS aspect, if I remember right. Sophie: Yeah, it's been definitely challenging, but also interesting that designing a product that is not used for one specific thing; it's very much user-focused and people will download it and decide how they use it, so it's been a challenge to design for that and to keep it well designed but also really, really flexible. Tim: Which is why I guess it's so important I guess that you are getting a chance to experience at least a little bit every once in a while because everybody talks about front-end design perspective, from a development perspective, how important it is to put yourself in your user's shoes and when you're talking about what Ushahidi is dealing with, and it's not just the devices or the browser or the connections: it's the situations; it's just so hard. It's so hard to put yourself in those sorts of shoes and understand what it must feel like to use the application or the site in those sorts of scenarios; that's such a huge challenge. Sophie: Yeah, there's no way that, well it sounds selfish saying it, but hopefully there's no way I would ever actually be able to experience that but I think that is why we have such a strong and valuable user advocacy team so that they can really communicate with them when people are in those situations and as they're using it in those situations. Tim: Do you get feedback from the users that are pertaining directly to things like how quickly they're able to report something or how quickly they're able to get access to the data that's been reported, in terms of it takes too long sort of a thing, not just a usability thing but from a performance perspective? Sophie: We haven't. Or not that I know of. Tim: Well, maybe that means you're doing an awesome job! Sophie: We'll see. It's also tough because the new version is yet to be used on a wide…by a lot of people, so we'll see, but it is great because we have the product is also open source, so we have a lot of community submissions and ideas so this is again the first time I've worked on something like that where I'll just be in my normal task list that we use internally as a team and I will get one from…I'm in Katmandu and this thing is not working; can you add this? So it is really cool to see that people care about improving the product. Tim: That's awesome. Katie: Is there anything that you've learned from going through this process and being hit with all of these pretty heavy design constraints that are just, oh man, there's no way I can ignore that. Has that changed your view on design, even outside of this product in particular? Sophie: I think that this has, compared to how I used to design, I'm keeping things a lot more simple, not even necessarily visually; visually as well but also just in how they work and not trying to dictate how something should work. Oftentimes we'll, with other people in my design team or sometimes with our developers, we'll discuss how something, spend hours doing flows and then just realizing, why don't we just let people do what they want to do and take a step back and not define so much how this should be used, so I think just the fact that so many different people are using it for different ways, I've found that it's often best to leave things open and then to not over-complicate them. Katie: Is that kind of freeing? Sophie: Errr….it's been difficult because I'm so used to not being like that. But yeah, kind of. For me as a designer it's been kind of hard to let go of control. Katie: Yeah, that's usually I think our downfall as designers is wanting to control everything and that's kind of a big part about embracing performance too: it just sounds boring to design for performance, even though it's not and it's just like anything else. Sophie: Yeah, I think that I talked to ??? about this a long, long time ago and I remember it's stuck with me in terms of performance but also it's kind of user advocacy side of design, which is that it's not in conflict with the design; you shouldn't think of performance as taking away from visual design but it's just a piece of design so it's just another aspect of UX and if it loads faster, then that'll make the design better. Katie; It means you did your job well! Sophie. Yeah, exactly. Tim: At the end of the day it's about, especially in your case, but at the end of the day it's really about how quickly can the people using the site or the application get the task done that they came to the site to do and so that makes performance comes right up front and center along with any other bit of the process really, information architecture, clear content structure and good visual design; it all contributes. Sophie: That's what design is, right? Getting people to be able to do what they want as easily as possible. Katie: Is this something that you were thinking about before having these experiences in these other parts of the world, or was that the eye-opener of, oh-whoa, my designs should encapsulate this? Sophie: Yeah, I think it's always something theoretically that I could be like, your designs have to load really fast, of course, but selfishly I've always wanted them to look really cool or try out some latest thing that's trending on the web. So I think it's helped me step out and realize I'm not designing this for me. If I want to try something, I can just do it on my own site. Katie: So, I'm wondering if that's maybe the first step for designers that are not wanting to think about it… Sophie: Make them design something for someone in crisis. Katie: Yeah! Sophie: At an agency, every junior designer has to design for… Tim: Oh man! Sophie: …life or death situations. Katie: It's part of the interview process, you need to whiteboard a crisis design. Sophie: Yeah! Tim: Talk about no pressure right off the gate, that's what you're dealing with! Sophie: Have either of you seen Eric Meyer's presentation? Tim: I have not, but I've heard it's excellent. Sophie: I really want to. Katie: I want to see it as well. Sophie: It sounds really… Katie: Everything you are talking about is making we think of that. Sophie: I would really, really love to hear, I don't know if he would…he could be a good guest on the podcast just to talk about his experience. Tim: Yeah, I'd love to talk to Eric. I've heard the presentation is just fantastic but I haven't had a chance to catch it live. I don't know if it's recorded or not anywhere but if so, I haven't seen it. Katie; I think if any of you want come hang out in Ohio, I believe I would have to double-check, but I think he's giving that Rustbelt Refresh in Cleveland in September. Tim: I do like that conference. I did that last year, it's a lot of fun. Katie: So, you want to come hang out in Ohio and see it? Tim: Sunny Cleveland! Katie: Where the lake caught on fire! Sophie: Oh my God! Tim: I don't think I heard this. Katie; I think it was before I ever lived in Ohio, ten or so years ago. It may have been the river, it may have been the lake, I can't remember. One of them was so polluted that it caught on fire at some point. (45:11) Tim: That sounds a lovely! Sophie: That's terrifying! Tim: My only knowledge of Cleveland, which I think is probably upsetting and insulting to all people who live in Cleveland… Katie: Drew Carey Tim: Yep. So, I apologize for that! Sophie: I've been to Cleveland; I spent two weeks in Cleveland. Katie: What? Sophie: I was going through, you know, being young and wanting to work for Obama during the election but even then, I don't know what's in Cleveland, even after spending time there. Katie: I have been to Cleveland twice and I don't know. I live two hours from it; I couldn't tell you what's in Cleveland. Sophie: Really cheap houses if I remember; lots of empty, cheap houses! Katie: One time I tried out to be on The Price is Right this is when Drew Carey was the host and because I am really bad at being like, wooow, cookie-crazy person to be on The Price is Right, they interview every person that goes through the process and like, "why should we pick you?" and my only response was just like, "I'm from Ohio. Just like Drew. Cleveland Rocks, right?" Sophie: Certainly good for TV. Katie: Yeah, well, we'll talk about Ohio. Obviously I did not make it! Tim: That's sad! Sophie: There's still hope; you could try again. Tim: Don't give up on that. Katie: No, that was actually…. Sophie: Don't give up on your dreams. Tim: No, you've got to follow through. Katie: That was horrific; you're just like cattle being herded for six hours through this line as they interview every single person that goes in the thing, so if you're ever in LA and thinking, it would be fun to go on The Price is Right: it's not. Sophie: Think again! Katie: Sophie, you never did that when you lived there? Sophie: A lot of people I knew did. Katie: Did anyone ever get picked? Sophie: They did it…I grew up in LA and they filmed Jeopardy I think right next to my High School and they would do it as a fundraising thing where you would…they'd get a group things of tickets to Jeopardy and then the cheerleading squad or whoever would try to sell them individually. Katie: Whoa! Sophie: That's the closest I've gotten. Katie: Growing up in LA sounds wildly different from anywhere else! Was it? Sophie: We didn't have any lakes that lit on fire! Katie: Wasn't your High School the one from Grease? Sophie: Yep! Katie: Oh man. Sophie: And Party of Five. Is that what that show was called? Katie: Yeah. Tim: That's kinda cool. Katie: I'm more interested in Rydell High though. Sophie: I think they filmed it in partially different schools but the stadium was our stadium. Katie: The track where Danny's trying to be a jock and running around? Sophie: Yeah, yeah. Katie: Aw man, that's the worst part when Danny's trying to be a jock! Sophie: Wonder Years. Wonder Years, that's the block I grew up on. Katie: Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: Dang, you have Wonder Years, Alison has Dawson's Creek. Sophie: Dawson's Creek. Way before my time. Katie: I want to grow up on a teen drama! Sophie: The Yellow Brick Road was also the street, from the Wizard of Oz. Tim: Where was the Yellow Brick Road? Sophie: Before the houses were built, they filmed it on the street that my house was on. Tim: What? Sophie: And then years later, they had a reunion for all of the oompa-loompas that I accidentally walked on and I was sort of….what? Katie: Were they dressed up? Sophie: No. Tim: Wait, wait, wait…you just said oompa-loompas, but isn't that…that's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, right? Sophie: Not oompa-loompas. Munchkins! The Munchkins! Tim: I was like, wait a minute… Katie: Glad you got that 'cos I didn't! Sophie: I didn't either, I was like, this sounds right. Tim: Yeah, OK, I just wanted to clarify which movie it was. Sophie: Can we cut this out? We're going to get complaints from Little People of America organization. Tim: Yeah, that's fine. Actually we could use a few complaints. We haven't got many or any yet. Katie: Thanks for bringing it up. Now we're going to….well, if you're looking for feedback, let me tell you...you can lay off the chit-chat. Tim: We've gotten plenty, plenty of negative feedback and complaints so please don't bother sending those emails or letters. There, that should… Katie: I'm going to write you a strongly worded letter about your podcast! Tim: It happens. Sophie: This really went off the rails! Tim: It did, but you know what? That's cool. That's all right. I feel like… (50:03) Katie: It was getting really heavy, so you know we to lighten it up. Tim: It was, we had to lighten it up and I feel like it's kind of weird that we had gone this far without talking about Drew Carey so, you know, however many episodes we're into this and Drew Carey had never come up; seems wrong. Katie: Really? Sophie: Give us some Drew Carey facts, Katie! Katie: Actually, well I don't know any Drew Carey facts but I'm sure Tim has lots because that seems like that's your era of TV. Tim: I'm not that old, all right? Katie: Yeah, but Everybody Loves Raymond, you'll never… Tim: Yeah, I actually had…. Sophie: Are you Everybody? Tim: No, no. Am I? Sophie: Do you love Raymond? Tim: I do love Raymond; I do. It was a good show, all right? It was a good show. Under-appreciated by the current generation! Sophie: It was the most popular show ever at the time. Tim: It was really popular; really popular. Sophie: Did you just watch it on multiple TVs over and over again to up the ratings? Tim: Errr…. Katie: He had it going on every TV in the house, the whole day and night! Sophie: The syndication too so they're getting those checks, all from Tim! Katie: Tim loves Raymond! Sophie: New TV show! Tim: All right, all right; neither one of you are ever invited back on this podcast; even you, Katie. That's it, that's the end of it. I'm going to go start my own podcast where we're going to talk about Everybody Loves Raymond and The Drew Carey Show and things like that. Katie: Indiana Jones Tim: Indiana Jones, yep. This really did get off the rails. My gosh! Sophie: Yeah, feel weird going back to talking about crisis. Tim: So, well, you know, maybe we don't, there was a lot of really good, like Katie said, it was getting really serious and really awesome discussion, I think, around performance and it was really cool to hear somebody who is coming at it from that global perspective which, it's just not something that we commonly think about a lot, for most of us aren't dealing with on a day to day basis, so it's really interesting to have somebody come in and burst the bubble a little bit and give us a broader perspective. Katie: Yeah, it's great because I think like you said, Sophie, earlier: in theory everybody's like, it's nice and stuff and obviously we talk a lot about performance and everything and it's one of those things that I think everybody is like, yeah, yeah, in theory yeah, we want it to be fast because we don't want to be shamed by Twitter, but… Sophie: Other web designers! Katie: Yeah, basically. So it's great for you to come in here and give us the perspective of what that actually means and hopefully shed some light on that empathy. Sophie: Yeah, thank you for having me. Katie: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Tim: Going forward, it anybody wants to follow along and hear more about what Ushahidi's doing or about what you're doing, how do they do that? Sophie: For Ushahidi, I would recommend following Ushahidi on Twitter, ushahidi.com for a lot of information about all their different products and blogposts and then for me, my website is sophieshepherd.com Tim: Very cool. Katie: What about any social media that you may have because, I might be biased, but I think Sophie you have a pretty good account that's pretty funny! Sophie: My Twitter unfortunately is sophshepherd, because there's a British teenager named Sophie Shepherd who took that from me. So, don't follow her unless you want to hear a lot of complaining about tests and boyfriends. Katie: Do you follow her? Sophie: Occasionally! Then I get too mad about it and then I think, what if they think it's me? Katie: Is she also blonde and kind of looks like you? Sophie: Yeah, I've sent her a message; she does kind of. I sent her a message on Facebook once and she went, what are you freak? And then that was it. Katie; Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: She called you a freak? Sophie: Yeah. I'll put a screenshot in our speaker notes! Katie: OK, well follow the real Sophie Shepherd then. Sophie: Yep. Tim: Well, thank you and we'll definitely have to have you on again to discuss because I feel like there's a lot more we could get into in terms of Drew Carey and Ray Romano, so in a future episode. Katie: You can do that on your separate…Everyone Loves Ray. Tim: And Tim Loves Raymond. Yeah, that's good. It'll be the initial episode. Sophie:: Tim and Ray. All right. Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thanks; bye. Katie: Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Path to Performance podcast. You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes or on our site pathtoperf.com; you can also follow along on Twitter @pathtoperf. We'd love to hear what you thought so feel free to drop us a note on Twitter or leave a raving and overly kind review on iTunes. We like to read those. And if you'd like to talk about being a guest or sponsoring a future episode, feel free to email us at hello@pathtoperf.com